[Deck] Red Death (B/r Suicide)

[nitewolf9]

Rise/fall seems terrible. Are you running cabal therapy with it? If you are that seems to be overkill on the hand disruption. If I were to not run null rod I'd probably run pithing needle in it's place. I suppose the main two reasons to run the rod are iggy pop and fairy stompy (we have dystopia for as). With extirpate, it seems as though the iggy pop matchup would get way better (it doesn't seem too much in our favor right now). Perhaps then I would aschew null rod for something else, but I still like an out against affinity.

laststepdown, have you played against decks in your meta that seem like you are far behind against (both pre and post board)? What does your board look like right now?

[Anarky87]

I don't think I'd take my Null Rod's out of the SB now. Like Wolf said, you may not feel like it's needed or used, but when you really do need it, it's pure gold. It's wonderful against Iggy, as recently I used it to stop a turn 2 win against me where they had all FOUR LED's in play and just cast a Mystical Tutor to set up the win. I dropped Null Rod and won shortly after when he couldn't draw into anything to help him. Not to mention it's applications against equipment and Affinity. FS becomes more manageable when you're not dealing with flying, equipped monsters and hilarious to completely shut Affinity's board down.


(we have dystopia for fs)

Did you mean Angel or some other stompy variant? ;)

[nitewolf9]

Corrected.

[Happy Gilmore]

I dont see any reminder text on the card to indicate that a shuffle is required afterward. Did they start omiting them recently? Shuffling is essential since it stops the card advantage of predict and the mirage tutors.

[Firebrothers]

In my meta im not having that much of a hard time against iggy pop. We normally have 2 people run them at our tournements, one traditional style iggy and the other with grim tutors which makes it go off like a whole turn earlier. I dont find null rods essential to win against them because if you pluck their search out of their hands early and sinkhole/wasteland their lands it is often hard for them to recover. One time though I ate up all his land and he went off with 0 permenents and one lotus pedal but i guess that is a rare case. Anyway I am not sold on null rods. I dont ever remember losing a match to affinity, wasteland and sinkhold are too good against them and all of their guys die to a bolt of chain lightning (besides enforcer if they run them).

[Anarky87]

I did some testing tonight only against Goblins to start with. I played 30 games, dividing 15 into pre-board games and 15 into post-board games and this is what I came up with:

-Pre Board-

Red Death: 7 wins
Goblins: 8 wins

Overall: About 45-47% in Red Death's favor.

Goblins started out with two quick wins to begin the session, but then Red Death went on a hot streak to win 6 games straight in a row. After that, Goblins decided it was time to go on a streak itself and won about 3-4 in a row, with Red Dea winning one more before Goblins finished the sessions with a couple more wins. The pre-board game's were very swingy, as Anwar stated earlier in this thread, with neither deck having a clear advantage.

-Post Board-

Red Death: 11 wins
Goblins: 4

Overall: About 73% in Red Death's favor.

Boarded in: +4 Engineered Plagues, +2 Cabal Therapy, and +1 Darkblast
Boarded out: -4 Duress, -2 Sinkhole, -1 Negator

Goblins against started out the second half of the session with a close win...And that was it for Goblins until 10 games later. The SB cards really push this matchup over the top and it's not always Plague that does Goblins in. Most of the time it was a combination of burning/Darkblasting 'Chiefs, Lackeys, and Piledriver and then just beating in with your fat. I wasn't overally impressed with Therapy in this matchup, but it did nab some Lackeys and Ringleaders from time to time. Double Plague, while very crippling and usually fatal, isn't always game winning, as I was playing against the green splash of Goblins with SB Tranquil Domain's.

What seemed to be key for Goblins throughout the testing was Aether Vial. That one card seemed to invalidate any and all of my land denial and sometimes my creatures and disruption. There were more than a few times where I would get them to 3 life or 1 life, only to have them stabalize with multiples Ringerleaders off of two or sometimes three Vials and then blow me away with a hoard of Goblins. So instead of Therapy, I might try SB'ing in a few Null Rod's to shut down their Vials. With Rod, I would have won the games where the only permanent they had in play was 1 Vial, and that 1 Vial killed me.

I'm not sure if any of this really helps, but I just thought I'd put some info out there. I hated seeing this deck slip from the first page and I intend to do more testing against Thresh and Solidarity as well. Then I might move into Tier 1.5/2 in preparation for Columbus.

[AnwarA101]

-Post Board-

Red Death: 11 wins
Goblins: 4

Overall: About 73% in Red Death's favor.

Boarded in: +4 Engineered Plagues, +2 Cabal Therapy, and +1 Darkblast
Boarded out: -4 Duress, -2 Sinkhole, -1 Negator

Goblins against started out the second half of the session with a close win...And that was it for Goblins until 10 games later. The SB cards really push this matchup over the top and it's not always Plague that does Goblins in. Most of the time it was a combination of burning/Darkblasting 'Chiefs, Lackeys, and Piledriver and then just beating in with your fat. I wasn't overally impressed with Therapy in this matchup, but it did nab some Lackeys and Ringleaders from time to time. Double Plague, while very crippling and usually fatal, isn't always game winning, as I was playing against the green splash of Goblins with SB Tranquil Domain's.

What seemed to be key for Goblins throughout the testing was Aether Vial. That one card seemed to invalidate any and all of my land denial and sometimes my creatures and disruption. There were more than a few times where I would get them to 3 life or 1 life, only to have them stabalize with multiples Ringerleaders off of two or sometimes three Vials and then blow me away with a hoard of Goblins. So instead of Therapy, I might try SB'ing in a few Null Rod's to shut down their Vials. With Rod, I would have won the games where the only permanent they had in play was 1 Vial, and that 1 Vial killed me.

I'm not sure if any of this really helps, but I just thought I'd put some info out there. I hated seeing this deck slip from the first page and I intend to do more testing against Thresh and Solidarity as well. Then I might move into Tier 1.5/2 in preparation for Columbus.

Thanks for the information. The postboard matchup looks quite good. Recent testing by nitewolf9 showed that postboard Red Death was up 10-5 vs Goblins which is very similar to your results. His boarding strategy was simpler -

-4 Duress
+4 Engineered Plague

When we talked about it nitwolf9 thought that boarding Therapy might be a good idea. I know that dealing with Aether Vial is very difficult. I've found that it is often the card I want to see least against Goblins. I've tried boarding in Null Rod against Goblins and I can't recommend it. The problem with boarding Null Rod is that you are only trying to answer one card and when that card isn't drawn the Rod is dead in your hands. The thing you really want to prevent in a sideboarded game is a dead card. I've even tried going for the mana denial plan leaving in my Sinkholes and adding Null Rod to the picture. I'm not sure this mana denial plan is the best plan against Goblins. My games with such a plan didn't seem to work out all that well. I can't explain exactly why but part of the problem is that Null Rod is very narrow in the matchup and often doesn't do anything at all.

What you really want to do is limit their resources. Aether Vial is only a problem because they have Goblins in their hand. Without a large hand they often can't make much use of Vial. The other option is to ignore Vial and and hit their hand with Hyppie, Hymn and Therapy. Therapy seems like it can be used to hit their best card advantage card, Goblin Ringleader. They can never play this card before turn 4 and often turn 5 off a vial. By then you should be able to apply some pressure to their hand with either hmyn, therapy, or Hyppie. Now I can't say this plan is full proof, but it seems like you can use therapy as a proactive counterspell against spells that cost 4 (Ringleader) and 5 (Siege-Gang). I haven't been playing Red Death recently but that's my current thinking on the subject. Perhaps impressive testing numbers such as yours can inspire me again.

[Anarky87]

Those are some very good points. I can see where Null Rod would be too narrow when aimed solely at Vial. Perhaps I was just letting my frustration get to me the times Goblins came back from absolutely nothing. Therapy was alright against them, hitting a few things here and there, but since you need every creature you can get, I feel Therapy can never be fully abused, like it was in the Rock; though it is hot after a Matron or Ringleader play, heh.

I'll try some testing with just the 4 Plagues and 1 Darkblast. It's what I boarded into at the tournament I was at last and seemed to be perfect. I hope to get the testing against Thresh done this weekend, because I believe I'll have a lot of time on my hand, but having played against it in the past, I don't think it'll be as tough as Goblins was, especially post-board with Dystopia and Therapy. I don't believe I've lost a tournament post-board match against Thresh yet. Thanks for advice!

[AnwarA101]

I'm still not sure what the best boarding plan for Goblins should be, but it seems that your results as well as those of Nitewolf9 must be pretty close to the right answer as both of those postboard matchups are highly in your favor. The role of Sinkhole should be looked into because if its a card that is completely invalidated by Vial perhaps its not a card to keep in the matchup. Obviously if they don't have a Vial then it can be very good, but can we really rely on them not drawing Vial? I'm just not sure.

[Anarky87]

There were games where I completely shut them down with no land or permanents thanks to sinkhole. But there were also times I was holding a sinkhole or two in hand while they had no land, but did have a Vial, and that let them come back and win it. So it kinda went both ways, I think I'll leave it in, because it does help limit them casting tons of Goblins in one turn, and it can take out Ports or Wastelands. I believe if you can get to your hate, then Vial doesn't matter. With one Plague, Vial can only spit out a select amount of creatures, with two Plagues, it's a dead card for them. I'm not sure, but I know now that you'll have a positive post-bard matchup and that works for me.

[nitewolf9]

I've been thinking of simply taking out the sinkholes for plagues, and leaving in the duresses after boarding. Especially considering that I plan to run extirpate over therapy in the board (might not be a good call as I haven't really tested it fully, but after my results with goblins without therapy it seems ok).

So something like +4 engineered plague, +1 darkblast, -4 sinkhole, -1 phyrexian negator might be good. Once again I board out the single negator because of the pyrokenisis threat. I still like him but I need to have some extra permanents out before I want to see him.

Duress protects plague, protects you from kinesis, protects you from stp, etc.
It's not good pre-board, but seems fantastic post-board (at least if you run plagues).

[Firebrothers]

I Especially considering that I plan to run extirpate over therapy in the board (might not be a good call as I haven't really tested it fully, but after my results with goblins without therapy it seems ok).



Yeah im planning on switching out my therapys in the side for extirpate. They seem to be strong against goblins so far, especially with hymn and burn we run to nab an early warchief or piledriver and then extirpate it. They lose alot of tempo if they dont have warchief and lose most of the go broke combo without piledriver.

[Anarky87]

During Gencon of this past year, I also decided to leave my Duresses in games 2 and 3 when I was playing The Rock so I could nab their SB hate cards. I'll have to give that a try again and see how it performs.

Extirpate will also be making a showing in my SB once I can get my hands on some. There's no denying that it is a powerful tool for RD's SB, but foil versions are getting a little hard to come by without signing over my unborn children. I think I'll start some of my Thresh testing tonight, and finish the other half of it this weekend.

[Firebrothers]

OK so something that has not been brought up yet I think, The Mirror Match.

So someone a few months ago saw the power of my deck and began getting the cards to copy it. I have played the mirror match only a few times and this is what I get from the games I played. Whoever gets the disruption on first will win the game. Dark rituals into sinkholes and duress/hymn is essential.

So what are the sideboarding options for this (e plegue on insect???) or do we just mull into alot of disruption?

[Anarky87]

OK so something that has not been brought up yet I think, The Mirror Match.

So someone a few months ago saw the power of my deck and began getting the cards to copy it. I have played the mirror match only a few times and this is what I get from the games I played. Whoever gets the disruption on first will win the game. Dark rituals into sinkholes and duress/hymn is essential.

So what are the sideboarding options for this (e plegue on insect???) or do we just mull into alot of disruption?

I've found that the key to winning this match is you have to open big. Whoever comes out of the gates first with Duresses, Hymns, Sinks, etc. will usually win the match. I'd probably mull into a hand that can either play out well enough on its own, or opens Ritual -> Negator/Specter. I don't think anything in the SB really helps, because E. Plague will hit your own dudes, like Shade, so it would be pretty symmetrical. I'd just try to come out swinging, that's worked for me so far.

[AnwarA101]

OK so something that has not been brought up yet I think, The Mirror Match.

So someone a few months ago saw the power of my deck and began getting the cards to copy it. I have played the mirror match only a few times and this is what I get from the games I played. Whoever gets the disruption on first will win the game. Dark rituals into sinkholes and duress/hymn is essential.

So what are the sideboarding options for this (e plegue on insect???) or do we just mull into alot of disruption?

I never actually thought that this would come up, but about a month ago at our local tournament Nitewolf9 and I got paired in the mirror match. Game 1 he was able to disrupt me by wasting my badlands and sinking my swamp. He was able to drop his creatures and I was not. Land destruction is pretty key here as if it hits early it can devastate board development. Game 2 he boarded in Masticore (which he was boarding for Goblins) which is a game-breaker as he can kill all our creatures with enough mana. Masticore has one big drawback in the mirror at any point a Hymn to Tourach would have caused him to sacrifice Masticore and put me back into the game. I wouldn't worry too much about this, but if you are boarding 1x Darkblast I would board it in as it can help you make your opponent's creatures smaller so that you can win the creature war. Nantuko Shade is awesome in the mirror as he gets around burn and can get bigger than any other creature.

[nitewolf9]

I have always viewed the mirror as a gunfight...whoever gets the first shot off wins. But as Anwar has said, shade is massive. Whoever gets the land and the shade out wins. That creature is rediculous.

[Firebrothers]

I won another local tournement this weekend going 4-0 and not losing a single game all night. I Beat goblins, sliver control, reanimater, and mono black control.
I am really excited when PC becomes legal and I can use extirpate. I have been paying attention when I used my cabal therapies to see how it would have worked if they were extirpates and it seemes really good against just about nay deck.

On MWS I have been using extirpates and they stole me a few games, one of which against a burn deck. He had me down to 8 and fireblast was in the yard. I drew an extirpate and named fireblast. He had 2 in his hand and would have won the game when he played a land the next turn. Anyway it seemes pretty positive right now.

[nitewolf9]

Red-based loam decks pretty much park a freight train up your ass, if anyone is still trying to play loam. But yeah, I don't need to say what extirpate does to them...it was a serious swing when we tested that match. It seems strong against solidarity, decent against threshold but not nearly as good as therapy in that mu...I'd honestly probably just side in the dystopia's and leave lightning bolts in, retarded against iggy and landstill alike, and unknown against goblins.

If I brought it in with plague in the goblins matchup, I'd probably try to hit their duals. I need to test that out though. Have people tried extirpate in this deck against goblins? For example, -4 duress -4 sinkhole +4 plague +4 extirpate? (my board would probably be 4 dystopia, 4 e. plague, 4 extirpate, 3 null rod after pc comes in).

[AnwarA101]

We had another fairly large local tournament at the Frog yesterday. There were 22 people and I decided to roll with Red Death to give my favorite a try.

Round 1 Vial Goblins - Mr. Nipples

Game 1 - He starts with mountain go. I love these games. I go with Swamp go. He goes mountain Fanatic go. I sinkhole his mountain. He plays another mountain swing with fanatic. On turn 3 I believe I play Rotting Giant pass. He misses his land drop and I think plays Piledriver. On my turn I draw sinkhole and play it dropping him to one land. I hold back with the Giant. He can't really swing and misses his land drop. On the following turn I cast 2 Hymns and he discards his 4 cards in hand. The game is basically over. I drop Negator and him Giant go to town.

Game 2 - This game is closer. He gets a vial to stick, but I'm able to get a Plague to stick. He keeps drawing Siege-Gang Commandeer which is awful when your opponent has a plague in play. The awesome part was that I had Wretched Anurid in play and he dealt me like 8 points of damage at least but he still helped me win the game.

1-0

Round 2 Vial Goblins - Calosso

Game 1 - He gets an active vial early. My early Giants can't keep up and Gempalm eats me alive. I don't have the early disruption or fast enough clock to really slow him down.

Game 2 - Ritual Negator. Turn 2 Giant. Turn 3 Plague. Scoop.

Game 3 - This game is pretty close. His board development is kind of slow. I get a Hyppie and Giant into play. He has like Ringleader and 1 Piledriver. There is a key play where he Gempalms my Specter I respond by bolting Piledriver. He draws his card for Gempalm and then plays Kinesis on my Specter and Giant (using the 1 point from the Gempalm to kill off Specter). The game basically ends there as my board disappears. A plague would still have saved me, but I didn't draw it.

1-1

Round 3 Solidarity- nitewolf9

Game 1 - This game isn't very close. My disruption is really poor. I think I had a duress and maybe a Hymn, but my clock is just the Anurid. I draw land, land, land, and he crushes me.

Game 2 - This game wasn't very close. He stalls on 2 lands and my sinkholes really catch up to him. I believe my creatures are plentiful as well. Its really bad times. I think he attempts to go off, but it basically ends before he starts.

Game 3- This game was quite close. I believe I duress Remand and then I'm later able to take his High Tide with some type of discard. I believe I get like a Shade that starts swinging for quite a bit of damage. The last turn he has like 5 lands in play (one is a fetch) and he passes the turn to me. Before I'm able to attack he attempts to go off. He plays Reset without fetching because he does not want to go to 3 life because a bolt just beats him. He untaps 4 lands and flashs back Flash of Insight plays an Impulse, but still isn't able to find a High Tide.

2-1

Round 4 UGW Threshold - Shaun Hollaway (unregistered)

Game 1 - This game was crushing. I drop some disruption and try to his manabase because my hand has decent amount of Land destruction. My main mistake here was keeping a hand without 2 black sources. I keep a hand with badlands, ritual, wasteland, wasteland, sinkhole, sinkhole, shade. Suffice it to say it takes me forever to draw the second black source. By then Mongoose has been beating my face in. I eventually play a creatures and then he counters. I play another creatures, he counters. I play Giant, he counters, I lose.

Game 2 - This game was very close. We start out like usual. With a little disruption and some creatures. He eventually takes out all my creatures with 3 STPs. He gets a Mongoose, but it trades with a Giant. We are both low on cards in hand and things kind of are at a standstill for a couple of turns. He counters my threat or I disrupt his hand. There is a turn he passes to me with 1 card in hand and 5 lands in play (mainly because he had a lack of cantrips). Neither of us creatures in play and I draw my card for the turn which makes it so that each of us has 1 card in hand. I play Phyrexian Negator and he hardcasts Force of Will. While this may not seem suprising it is given his real lack of velocity and my disruption which a couple of turns early had emptied his hand. He takes his turn plays Serum Visions and then plays Mystic Enforcer. I have 2 turns to draw Dystopia and I don't. I felt crushed.

2-2

I end up in 9th place. This is really starting to hurt. I felt so crushed by Threshold that I couldn't believe it. I didn't feel like I could win against the Threshold player. I'm not sure exactly what's missing from the deck, but I still feel like there has to be something.

[nitewolf9]

I end up in 9th place. This is really starting to hurt. I felt so crushed by Threshold that I couldn't believe it. I didn't feel like I could win against the Threshold player. I'm not sure exactly what's missing from the deck, but I still feel like there has to be something.

Dark Confidant? :cry: Sorry, that made me throw up a little. Anyway, in serious mode, I think games like that with threshold happen on both sides. Some days you just destroy them, others it seems you can't win. I saw your opening hand game 1 against thresh and I definitely would have mulled. I've learned that even with a ritual, sans first turn negator/hyppie or something like that, you really need the 2 black sources to keep. Otherwise the risk is at least equal to the reward, if not more on the risk side. Granted I think with 2 wastelands against thresh in your hand it was a bit misleading. Yes, you can hit their manabase hard, but if your threat got answered (which it did) you are pretty much just getting them to threshold faster with those wastelands (aside from keeping enforcer off the table)...manascrew on their part aside. I don't know, that MU is just quirky. Btw, had you seen a dystopia, I think things could have been different.

Seriously though, what would we change in the deck to make things better?
Maybe -1 wasteland, +1 badlands/swamp? -1 swamp, +1 urborg, tomb of urami? Something to fix the mana up? A difference in the threat base? The disruption package seems really tight as it is, and I wouldn't cut any of the burn. So what would we be trying to do here? Have better game against goblins? Thresh?

[Happy Gilmore]

Dark Confidant? :cry: Sorry, that made me throw up a little.


I lol'd in RL. But seriously, we did some testing post board UGW vs. Red death and it was a beating. I was watching Anwar101 and Mad Zur go at it and the games I remember Anwar winning involved MZ having no more green sources...sigh. I saw Monestary give Red Death fits and a half, wasteland/sinkhole or not. I played two games myself on Death's side of the table and I passed the torch back to Anwar right after MZ droped Enforcer #3 on my face :cry: .

[nitewolf9]

Yeah, it can be bad. Here are a few things I was looking at from planar chaos (just to get the thought juices flowing...I'm not saying these are great ideas, but they could be):

brute force...the red giant growth. Could this be better than chain lightning? Probably not, but once again...thought.
dead/gone
fury charm (md artifact removal that isn't really dead ever? )
imp's mischief
midnight charm (dead againt combo so probably not)

a single mirri the cursed or shivan wumpus over the anurid?

Here's an interesting card: rough/tumble
3 of them instead of the chain lightnings. It kills threshed enforcers. It sweeps goblins. It takes a brick to the head of fairy stompy.
It...is probably a terrible answer because it costs 6 mana to ice enforcer...but you might be able to get to that against thresh more than you think. The main thing I guess is an out to enforcer, and the fact that it stomps goblins (despite the obvious lack of synergy with negator, but that can be easily played around). Should the deck take 3 potentially dead cards if they can be powerful answers to problematic matchups?

I duno, throw me a freakin' bone here...thoughts about anything?

[Happy Gilmore]

Yeah, it can be bad. Here are a few things I was looking at from planar chaos (just to get the thought juices flowing...I'm not saying these are great ideas, but they could be):

brute force...the red giant growth. Could this be better than chain lightning? Probably not, but once again...thought.
dead/gone
fury charm (md artifact removal that isn't really dead ever? )
imp's mischief
midnight charm (dead againt combo so probably not)

a single mirri the cursed or shivan wumpus over the anurid?

Here's an interesting card: rough/tumble
3 of them instead of the chain lightnings. It kills threshed enforcers. It sweeps goblins. It takes a brick to the head of fairy stompy.
It...is probably a terrible answer because it costs 6 mana to ice enforcer...but you might be able to get to that against thresh more than you think. The main thing I guess is an out to enforcer, and the fact that it stomps goblins (despite the obvious lack of synergy with negator, but that can be easily played around). Should the deck take 3 potentially dead cards if they can be powerful answers to problematic matchups?

I duno, throw me a freakin' bone here...thoughts about anything?


Actually the common split card (shock +bounce) would probably be better since it still answers lacky on the draw, but I think its still going to be worse than lightning because of the fact that it doesn't do damage to the dome. Although I think the best answer would be to board 3x crypt in the board so you have 7 cards against thresh, especially since crypt is not dead in other matchups as well.

(bouncing bear and Enforcer is kind of hot IMO)

[Anarky87]

It's too bad you got beat by Thresh, but 9th out of 22 still isn't that bad I guess. The matchup isn't as lopsided as one might tend to believe, because Thresh can just get in the groove and take you to town. I was testing against the red splash Thresh last night pre-board and won about 5-6 games in a row, then Thresh got on the ball and won 2-3 maybe back to back, so it's kinda iffy. Same way with Gobs pre and post board, ya just take what ya get. But I would definitely throw a hand back anymore if it doesn't contain the 2nd black source. That's almost asking to be be screwed out of the game. The deck needs BB to function, and if you can come out against Thresh with some disruption backed by beats, you're good to go. Enforcer is a bitch though, I'm not sure what to do about that, except keep attacking their White sources.

Another way to tackle that is maybe board some kind of GY hate. That way you have Dystopia for their creatures, and whatever hate you bring in, like Wretch or Crypt. That would also hit two birds with the same stone, also hitting random Loam or GY based stuff as well.

[Firebrothers]

I think my list is slightly different then ya'lls and it may help with a few of your matchups.

7 Swamps
3 Badland
4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta

4 Negator
3 Shade
4 Specter
3 Giant


4 Duress
4 Hymn
4 Sinkhole
4 Ritual
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Bolt
3 Chain

//SB//
4 Dystopia
4 Plague
3 Withered Wretch
1 Mountain
2 Null Rod
1 Darkblast

I am running one less land and 2 less creatures (I dropped one shade and the anurid). I felt like, especially in my meta, combo is rampent. Two iggy players come weekly mabey more some weeks, a few solidarity guys and some random combo like prosbloom. Also I wanted to improve the control matchup, Therapy seems good against just about anything.

So for a while now I took out some speed of the two creatures for some therapys. I do not remember losing a game in a tournement to threshold and therapy helps in so many matchups besides that. After a duress it nabbs another card. After a ringleader it takes something. I don't even need to go into how good it is against any combo whether it is after seeing their hand or shooting in the dark it gives you insight of what is comming up.

Main deck cabal therapy just seems right to me at this point. Often I never use the flashback but when I have to it usually is so I can win the game. I don't know, try it out see if you like it but for me it works.

[AnwarA101]

I'm thinking about reworking the board. I'm still very disappointed by losing to Goblins in round 2 of the tournament on Saturday as well as losing to Threshold make me rethink the current sideboard. First, I have played Null Rod is so many tournaments and have yet to use it. I believe I was the one who suggested the card, but I'm coming to have my doubts.

First off the decks that it is best against are not really seeing much play including Faerie Stompy, Angel Stompy, Salvagers Game, Affinity, etc. It is very good against Iggy Pop which I think is the only deck that is seeing much play at all. It may not make sense to try and sideboard for matchups that have a very big chance of not coming up such as Faerie Stompy. If you get paired against these decks you have to try and play through them with what you have. Its also very likely that these decks do not have your strategy in mind and they won't have much to board against you.

My second consideration is that I'm actually thinking of cutting Cabal Therapy. While it is a very strong card it only helps one of your better matchups (Solidarity) and while it is useful against both Thresh and Goblins it is possible that we can create room for a different type of card in the sideboard if we cut Cabal Therapy.

The following is what I'm considering -

4 Engineered Plague
4 Dystopia
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Darkblast

Boarding strategy for the major decks as follows -

Goblins -

-4 Sinkhole, -4 Duress, +4 Engineered Plague, +3 Gempalm Incinerator, +1 Darkblast

I've been intrigued by running Gempalm Incinerator for quite awhile. In many ways its exactly what you want. It is a removal spell that replaces itself and always kills the best Goblin on the board. I know you lose the ability to Therapy out Ringleaders, but you always have many ways of destroying their whole army.

Threshold -

-4 Lightning Bolt, -3 Chain Lightning, +4 Dystopia, +3 Tormod's Crypt

This matchup loses Therapy as well, but you get Tormod's Crypt. This should create a very difficult situation for the Threshold player. Your disruption won't just give them Threshold if you are able to even Crypt once as it will make all your creatures amazing by comparison.

Solidarity

-3 Chain Lightning, +3 Tormod's Crypt

While this may seem bad and yes its much worse than Cabal Therapy it is very often that Solidarity player uses his graveyard to generate card advantage mostly due to Flash of Insight. You could even make the argumetn that you should not even board and that might also be correct as just trying to keep your fast clock maybe the best course of action if you can't board into something ridiculous like Cabal Therapy.

[Firebrothers]

You shouldent go on tilt after losing to these decks. I dont think the goblin matchup is all that bad and 3 Gempalm Incinerator is a very situational card. For one you have to have a mountain out against goblins that runs 4 wasteland and 4 ports. For 2 you only get to take away one of their dudes for what advantage, another card? I dont know, I havent done much testing but I dont think this seems like a good idea at all.

What about Extirpate. Have you tested it out much? It seems more usefull and although Ohio will be a Goblin Breeding Ground I think it will help just as much as incinerator because it will remove all copies of one little green guy. Or cut them off of white or green so they cant ge trid of a plegue.

About threshold, have you tried withered wretch sb? I think it has its advantages, it stays on the board, its a body, its sorta unexpected(if they run needle will they name crypt or wretch without any prior knowledge?). Although it does cost 2 mana its a valid investment IMO. I use them to sac to therapys alot and your thinking about getting rid og those so tormods crypt could be just as good.

[Anarky87]

What I think I'm going to do is test a SB of:

4 Plague
4 Dystopia
3 Wretch (Because my Crypts are loaned out to someone right now)
3 Extirpate (As soon as they become legal and I get some)
1 Darkblast

The only thing I'm worried about is whether Wretch would interfere with Shade. Having to sink mana into Wretch takes away from you boosting Shade, and with you boosting Shade, you way not have enough for Wretch at EOT or whenever you decide to do it. I think I might like Crypt better, as it's free and hits their entire yard, and would help your offensive a little better, knowing that at any moment, their team could go back to being fun sized.

I'm not completely sold on Incinerator. Like FB (If you don't mind me using an acronym), it requires a Badlands to be in play and it only hits one of their dudes and nets you a card. Goblins can handle having a creature taken out here and there, but if you can halt their early onslaught and follow that up with a game-breaker (such as Plague), it puts you in a better position to win.


First, I have played Null Rod is so many tournaments and have yet to use it. I believe I was the one who suggested the card, but I'm coming to have my doubts.

First off the decks that it is best against are not really seeing much play including Faerie Stompy, Angel Stompy, Salvagers Game, Affinity, etc. It is very good against Iggy Pop which I think is the only deck that is seeing much play at all. It may not make sense to try and sideboard for matchups that have a very big chance of not coming up such as Faerie Stompy. If you get paired against these decks you have to try and play through them with what you have. Its also very likely that these decks do not have your strategy in mind and they won't have much to board against you.

I thought the same thing today at work. Null Rod is good against AS, FS, Affinity, and shuts off Iggy's jewelry, but I've yet to really board them in seriously. I haven't seen AS in what seems forever, I don't think enough people play FS for it to warrant SB slots, and Iggy will be handled partially when Extirpate becomes legal. In the last two tournaments I played the deck in I played against U/W/b Fish, Lands x2, Jank, Goblins, U/G/W Thresh, 4c Landstill, and Angel Stax. Not once did I board in Null Rod, while the rest of my board was in pretty frequent use. So with that being said, I propose this SB for testing and post Planar Chaos legailty:

4 Dystopia
4 Plague
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Extirpate
1 Darkblast

It fights Goblins, it fights Thresh and GY based decks such as Loam and Reanimator, and it fights combo (It also makes chili and fries! Silly Aladdin).

[nitewolf9]

If I were to cut null rod, I'd probably board into something like:

4x dystopia
4x engineered plague
4x extirpate
3x umezawa's jitte

I think extirpate needs to be tested against thresh. If I were going to run another card besides plague against goblins, I think jitte is way better than gempalm...simply because it also helps you dominate other aggro matchups. It tends to be a more controlling card, but in the board it lets you have a lot of power to take that role. I think I want to test it again at least...jitte is still stupid. Jitte has the inherint ability to also roll over jank, which sometimes can give you fits (depending on the strategy of said jank).

Jitte + engineered plagues = goblins not winning.

[Firebrothers]

If I were to cut null rod, I'd probably board into something like:

4x dystopia
4x engineered plague
4x extirpate
3x umezawa's jitte




Besides goblins not winning with an active jitte it also gives us an extra out against burn if the jitte gets online. The -1/-1 kills any ball lightnings or spark elementals and the lifegain bonus is huge. It is still unlikely we will beat any deck packing burn r/g beats or whatever but it still helps that matchup some.

[nitewolf9]

That's what I was thinking as well. The other option I was considering was 3x cursed scroll in that spot, because it is great against goblins with plague support and can double as a threat when negator is just too much of a liability (burn, r/g beats/etc.). Masticore is also a possibility, but with no draw and goblins packing stp he can be a liability as well. His power might warrant it though...I've ran him in the past with success.

Out of all those options I still think jitte is the most powerful. It doesn't fit maindeck at all, but from the board it can be a wrecking ball (no rakdos pun intended).

[Happy Gilmore]

The following is what I'm considering -

4 Engineered Plague
4 Dystopia
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Darkblast

Boarding strategy for the major decks as follows -

Goblins -

-4 Sinkhole, -4 Duress, +4 Engineered Plague, +3 Gempalm Incinerator, +1 Darkblast

I've been intrigued by running Gempalm Incinerator for quite awhile. In many ways its exactly what you want. It is a removal spell that replaces itself and always kills the best Goblin on the board. I know you lose the ability to Therapy out Ringleaders, but you always have many ways of destroying their whole army.

Threshold -

-4 Lightning Bolt, -3 Chain Lightning, +4 Dystopia, +3 Tormod's Crypt

This matchup loses Therapy as well, but you get Tormod's Crypt. This should create a very difficult situation for the Threshold player. Your disruption won't just give them Threshold if you are able to even Crypt once as it will make all your creatures amazing by comparison.

Solidarity

-3 Chain Lightning, +3 Tormod's Crypt

While this may seem bad and yes its much worse than Cabal Therapy it is very often that Solidarity player uses his graveyard to generate card advantage mostly due to Flash of Insight. You could even make the argumetn that you should not even board and that might also be correct as just trying to keep your fast clock maybe the best course of action if you can't board into something ridiculous like Cabal Therapy.

Right on...and I agree 100% with crypt in this matchup. I brought in 2 against Solidarity when I was playing UGR last week. At the very least it was better than Dragon which is an I LOSE button if you attempt to play it. What about going to 2 Darkblast and 2 Gempalm so you can be more effective against random agro decks. After all, those are the ones that give you fits anway. 2x Darkblast is hell against Angel Stompy, It kills everything. Upkeep target silver Knight, dredge, kill knight. Or kill priest + Savannah Lions + Mother (first turn in play) + Morphed angel. So basically everything in the deck.

[nitewolf9]

Or just own their face with jitte and dystopia (plague is also good against them).

However I do like the hilarious synergy of gempalm and darkblast. I still think gempalm is way too narrow though.

[Happy Gilmore]

Or just own their face with jitte and dystopia (plague is also good against them).

However I do like the hilarious synergy of gempalm and darkblast. I still think gempalm is way too narrow though.

Haha, your right that is kind of funny. Its like having E-plague on the board but working at instant speed.

The other thing to test is to make sure that Crypt is near to the power level of Nullrod against Iggy Pop. It might even be better.

[nitewolf9]

The other thing to test is to make sure that Crypt is near to the power level of Nullrod against Iggy Pop. It might even be better.

That's very true, I keep forgetting that crypt is good against them. Especially with all the discard.

[Happy Gilmore]

That's very true, I keep forgetting that crypt is good against them. Especially with all the discard.


Does Iggy SB in Needle in case their opponent is boarding crypt? From what I know of playing the matchup it is very very hard to go off if crypt is online, ready, and waiting for the moment to jump up and say NOOOOO!!!!!!! And I think its nearly impossible to construct a 10 storm tendrils hand with all the discard Red death packs.

Oooooo, and you can even leave in the Lightning Bolts. :tongue: The only probem I see with running crypt is that you only have three cards boarded in that actively affect the matchup mid-combo. And there is no promise of drawing them.

[nitewolf9]

Does Iggy SB in Needle in case their opponent is boarding crypt? From what I know of playing the matchup it is very very hard to go off if crypt is online, ready, and waiting for the moment to jump up and say NOOOOO!!!!!!! And I think its nearly impossible to construct a 10 storm tendrils hand with all the discard Red death packs.

Oooooo, and you can even leave in the Lightning Bolts. :tongue: The only probem I see with running crypt is that you only have three cards boarded in that actively affect the matchup mid-combo. And there is no promise of drawing them.

We could always throw 4 crypts in the board. The only problem I can see with that is pithing needle would be very bad. It could be okay, or we could run a fourth piece of yard hate in the form of shred memory or something, just so needle isn't a complete raping. Maybe:
4x engineered plague, 4x dystopia, 3x umezawa's jitte, 3x tormod's crypt, and 1x shred memory instead of the darkblast.

Or we could just be awesome and run 4x shred memory instead of the crypts. I love that card. Hate coming down turn one on iggy is very relevant though, sadly.

Chalice of the void is another option. It rapes thresh and you would take out the burn in the matches it would come in against anyway, so only duress and ritual could be hit by it at one. Another thought (chalice for 0 gives you quite some time to kill iggy pop as well).

[Happy Gilmore]

We could always throw 4 crypts in the board. The only problem I can see with that is pithing needle would be very bad. It could be okay, or we could run a fourth piece of yard hate in the form of shred memory or something, just so needle isn't a complete raping. Maybe:
4x engineered plague, 4x dystopia, 3x umezawa's jitte, 3x tormod's crypt, and 1x shred memory instead of the darkblast.

Or we could just be awesome and run 4x shred memory instead of the crypts. I love that card.

I'm not really sold on Jitte just yet. Although I think Shred Memory is the uber tech. Transmute for Nantuko Shade...WHAT NOW!

Personally I hate relying on a 4 casting cost artifact + a creature against goblins.

I would rather have 2 darkblast 2 Shred Memory 4 Dystopia 4 Plague 3 Crypt. And I def. want to test Gempalm, even though Goblins is certainly an easier matchup than Grow is for Death. Card advantage and instant speed removal seems like good times to me.

[Anarky87]

I like the prospect of Crypt in the board, because not only does it hamper Iggy mid-combo and cuts Gro's creatures down to size, but it also nails other decks as well. I still think Gempalm is a narrow answer and you already have a lot of game against Goblins post-board with burn, Plagues, and Darkblast. I hadn't thought of Jitte, but it seems like an awesome tool. It becomes a Goblin killer with 1 Plague out, gains us some life in a pinch, and makes our creatures beefier, which is never a bad thing. There's a tournament coming up this month on the 17th, so I believe I'll make some changes in the SB and see how I do.

[nitewolf9]

Personally I hate relying on a 4 casting cost artifact + a creature against goblins.


Don't forget we also run plague, so that window of time that it buys us can let you start powering up jitte. Once it's active, it's game over. Just plague isn't necessarily gg. It's also superb on it's own, where darkblast might be a bit sub-par without a plague out. It is 4 cc though, so once again I'd like to test it out.

Shred memory is also cool cause it's way cheaper for foily ones :tongue:

[laststepdown]

Shred Memory could warrant the use of a single Incinerate. Find burn spell now.

[Firebrothers]

Does anyone else think that you all are preparing your sideboards for decks that we all ready have a favorable matchup against?

I dont think that goblins needs more then 4 e plegues and a darkblast.

Threshold doesnt need more then dystopia and mabey a crypt or 2 (withered wrtech in my case)

Solidarity/iggy. Who is losing to these decks often. I know they steal games but if you dont see a hand with at least 2 disruption spells and a clock why are you keeping it? Mabey you could bring in the crypts but with the addition of extirpate what more do we need.

From what I see this deck has a slightly favorable matchup with everything. I dont know that could just be me. I just don't lose often to goblins, especially post board. Theshold can't deal with sinkholes and wastelands coupled with discard and biger dudes. For combo this deck has duress, hymn, therapy, hippy, sinkhole, and dark ritual to combine any of these into a single turn rape.

We are all on different pages with the side board and I think with a little testing with extirplate and playing alot of games against the big 3 we will see what needs to go into this deck.

[nitewolf9]

I think it may also be the level of the players and their experience against the deck as well. People here in NoVA seem know the deck very well and know how to fight against it and are also very good players with both goblins and thresh (two of our goblins players and a thresh player placed first and second on different days of the dfd). The deck can still beat those decks, I wouldn't play it if it didn't. I'm not saying the players aren't good in your area, but they probably don't have as much experience against the deck (it really shines as a surprise element).

I think Anwar had a sour day with it, which does happen, but I've top 4'd the last 3 times I played it. As far as jitte goes though, I think it really helps against the "bad" decks that give us a problem (random aggro, burn...and yes, that's a winnable matchup). I could still be wrong, and like I said I am considering cursed scroll and masticore in it's spot for the same reasons (people underestimate all of these cards...). I agree that all slots in the board should be at a high power level.

Even though I have suggested some food for thought, I will still probably roll with this sideboard to any major event post PC:
4x Dystopia
4x Engineered Plague
4x Extirpate (this seems to be better and better)
3x umezawa's jitte

For now the extirpate slots will be yard hate (combination of crypts and shreds).

[AnwarA101]

I think Anwar had a sour day with it, which does happen, but I've top 4'd the last 3 times I played it.

Don't get too frustrated guys. My defeat to Threshold might have made me a little paranoid. I think the deck is pretty good, but making it better still needs to be the objective of everyone who wants to run this deck at a major tournament. I hope my ideas were helpful even if they aren't exactly where the sideboard and perhaps main deck need to go.

As a side thought, I was thinking about Keldon Vandals. They both provide a creature and the ability to destroy artifacts. While they might not be as good as Null Rod at shutting off artifacts they might still provide some ability to do both. I know that they are fragile at 4/1, but they are an interesting idea.

I'm pretty much set on 4 Plague and 4 Dystopia, but the other slots still seem debatable.

[nitewolf9]

I was actually looking at the vandals a little while back, they could be alright. Once again another testing thing.

[laststepdown]

If you're so worried about the goblin matchup, why not play Goblin Pyromancers in sideboard over the Plague Spitter/E Plague/Infest slot? Yeah, they cost 4, and that's a little steep, but 'destroy all goblins' does seem good.

[nitewolf9]

Plague is still worse for them because it stays around. They need to answer it against this deck or they loose. Winning through a plague is usually not an option against red death. Goblins is still extremely popular, and extremely powerful, so having a little too much hate is better than having not enough in my opinion. Especially when almost half of it (jittes in my case) has a crapload of other uses.

[laststepdown]

I'd have to agree, winning through E Plauge and Jitte is quite a task against this deck for Goblins...not only that, after a little thought, Pyromancer is exactly what you don't want-they die at end of turn, after your attack phase.

[Tao]

Why Gempalm Incinerator?

What happened to the very strong "Fire Covenant". It will gain much more card advantage and do much more about the board position against Goblins. Furthermore it will be infeniteley better in Mirror/Deadguy/Random Aggro matchup.

[calosso]

Why Gempalm Incinerator?

What happened to the very strong "Fire Covenant". It will gain much more card advantage and do much more about the board position against Goblins. Furthermore it will be infeniteley better in Mirror/Deadguy/Random Aggro matchup.

Because your life total is relevant in those match-ups.

[Anarky87]

Why pay life (Which is valuable in that match) to kill goblins when you can just drop Plague and neuter almost their entire deck? FC doesn't stop them from just dropping more goblins and smashing face the next turn, where Plague pretty much halts that plan to Warchief, Piledriver, Ringleader, and SGC. You could play FC in addition to Plague, but even then, why not just play Darkblast/Jitte? And if Goblins is the top dog when it comes to aggro decks and Red Death already goes about 75% with them post-board, there's no reason you shouldn't beat other aggro.

4 Plague
3 Jitte
1 Darkblast (If you decide to run it)

That should be enough to handle Goblins and other random aggro with the rest being your 4 Dystopia and some amount of Extirpate's most likely.

[Tao]

Because your life total is relevant in those match-ups.

That is the worst comment I have heard in a long time. It is sad how ignorant some people are.


Why pay life (Which is valuable in that match) to kill goblins when you can just drop Plague and neuter almost their entire deck? FC doesn't stop them from just dropping more goblins and smashing face the next turn, where Plague pretty much halts that plan to Warchief, Piledriver, Ringleader, and SGC. You could play FC in addition to Plague, but even then, why not just play Darkblast/Jitte? And if Goblins is the top dog when it comes to aggro decks and Red Death already goes about 75% with them post-board, there's no reason you shouldn't beat other aggro.

4 Plague
3 Jitte
1 Darkblast (If you decide to run it)

That should be enough to handle Goblins and other random aggro with the rest being your 4 Dystopia and some amount of Extirpate's most likely.

If you show me, where I crititicized the Plagues in Anwar's Sideboard then your argument would make sense. But I think you can't.

Fire Covenant is so much better than Gempalm Incinerator against Goblins, especially together with Engineered Plague. If it goes against Non-Goblin aggro it is infenitely superior.

[AnwarA101]

I've actually run Fire Covenant at the last Duel for Duals over Plague or Infest, but I did not run it in addition to Plague. I'm just not sure how much room in the board you have to run against Goblins and especially what you can pull out against them.

I'm completely against pulling any of the 16 creatures unless you want to pull a 1 of Negator or the 1 of Anurid, but I've found that the limited number of threats means you really need everyone that you draw. That only leaves the 12 disruption spells and the 7 burn spells. I think the 12 disruption spells are most likely to be replaced. But the question is how many can you pull? I've come to realize that Sinkhole is probably the worst one because if your opponent has a vial in play then it turns into a dead card. While this is okay in game 1 it makes virtually no sense in game 2. Duress while being very poor in game 1, but can be decent post-board depending on how many non-goblins they are boarding in. If we have 8 slots to board out then we can potentially have 8 cards to board in.

I boarded like such on Saturday -

-4 Duress
-4 Sinkhole

+4 Engineered Plague
+1 Darkblast
+3 Cabal Therapy

While Cabal Therapy is only okay against Goblins its possible that you have another 3 slots that you could fit. I suggested Gempalm Incinerator because he is amazing against them and he only costs 2 and replaces itself. I'm worried about boarding too many spells that cost 3 mana both Plague and Covenant might destroy your curve which you should definitely try to maintain.

[nitewolf9]

I agree that there is very limited room to work with here, the question I think is finding 3 other cards that are not narrow when you already have 4 that are (engineered plague). Plague still might be ok in other matchups, but gempalm is completely dead outside of goblins.

On that note, I don't think I would run fire covenant in the board in addition to plague. While yes, it is excellent on its own (which is a good reason to run it, to have 7 hate cards that operate individually and only augment each other when drawn in conjunction), and gets retarded with a plague on the board, it still seems very narrow. Other aggro is usually equipped to beat goblins with pro-red dudes or scary equipment like SoFI that completely trump covenant.

That is why I suggested jitte, or even scroll in their place. They are powerful, relatively broad cards that affect goblins as well as dicey matchups; scroll is interesting because not only is it great with plague, colorless removal, and synergistic with your lack of draw, but it also doubles as a threat that can be subbed in for negator when he becomes too dangerous...as in with the presence of an excess amount of burn (the relative slowness of it is usually irrelevant because your other threats do the bulk of the damage, or the decks they come in against are slow like landstill...which in the BWHC incarnation is a hell of a fight).

Legacy is still ripe with lots of random and the lower tables are what give you issues with this deck I think. Anyone else have an opinion on masticore, btw?
I know he is risky, but he is a game ender usually when he sticks around. I've run him to success in the past but would like to know other opinions on his viability.

[Happy Gilmore]

I agree that there is very limited room to work with here, the question I think is finding 3 other cards that are not narrow when you already have 4 that are (engineered plague). Plague still might be ok in other matchups, but gempalm is completely dead outside of goblins.

On that note, I don't think I would run fire covenant in the board in addition to plague. While yes, it is excellent on its own (which is a good reason to run it, to have 7 hate cards that operate individually and only augment each other when drawn in conjunction), and gets retarded with a plague on the board, it still seems very narrow. Other aggro is usually equipped to beat goblins with pro-red dudes or scary equipment like SoFI that completely trump covenant.

That is why I suggested jitte, or even scroll in their place. They are powerful, relatively broad cards that affect goblins as well as dicey matchups; scroll is interesting because not only is it great with plague, colorless removal, and synergistic with your lack of draw, but it also doubles as a threat that can be subbed in for negator when he becomes too dangerous...as in with the presence of an excess amount of burn (the relative slowness of it is usually irrelevant because your other threats do the bulk of the damage, or the decks they come in against are slow like landstill...which in the BWHC incarnation is a hell of a fight).

Legacy is still ripe with lots of random and the lower tables are what give you issues with this deck I think. Anyone else have an opinion on masticore, btw?
I know he is risky, but he is a game ender usually when he sticks around. I've run him to success in the past but would like to know other opinions on his viability.

Scroll might actually be interesting if its not too slow. But I think running both Fire Covenant + Plague is wrong for curve reasons. Plague + Darkblast anwers every goblin in the deck, feeds giant, and most importantly kills first turn lacky using a basic Swamp which cannot be wasted. That is extrememly important. I think Gempalm is very solid but I am hesitant of devoting 6-7 SB slots to one matchup alone. Especially one that is winnable, gempalm or not.

[Anarky87]

If you show me, where I crititicized the Plagues in Anwar's Sideboard then your argument would make sense. But I think you can't.

I don't think I need to, because I didn't say anywhere you were criticizing Anwar's board (Wherever you got that from...). You asked why FC wasn't being run, but were vague on whether it should be run in addition to Plague or in place of Plague. I went on to state why I wouldn't play FC imho. It also costs 3 and requires you to have a Badlands on the board against a deck that's pretty capable of dealing with non-basics and splash colors.


Fire Covenant is so much better than Gempalm Incinerator against Goblins, especially together with Engineered Plague.

Now had this been in your first post I think it would have helped. To which:


You could play FC in addition to Plague, but even then, why not just play Darkblast/Jitte?


Plague + Darkblast anwers every goblin in the deck, feeds giant, and most importantly kills first turn lacky using a basic Swamp which cannot be wasted

were the replies. In actuality, my argument did make sense, unless you'd like to point out for me where I was flaming people. I'm sorry if my post had a condescending tone, that was purely not my intention. I was simply asking why.

Personally, I believe 4 Plagues are a necessary evil for the deck, because they can just break Goblins. What I think we need to do from there is pick out cards that would compliment the Goblin matchup, but aren't so narrow as to be dead any other time. I believe I'm gonna test the 4 Plague, 3 Jitte, 1 Darkblast plan against Goblins, pulling 4 Duress and 4 Sinkholes. Jitte is just randomly nuts against so many other decks, including non-Goblin aggro.

Nitewolf, I think you did test Masticore, so what did you think of it? Was it effective, or did you have a hard time keeping it around? I remember playing Scroll in Deadguy, but it always seemed to be ineffective or it got Needled/Deeded away. Perhaps I was just unlucky with it.

[nitewolf9]

Scroll to me seems interesting in this deck because the relative slowness it has as a win condition is usually not an issue...we have our huge monsters for that role. It really shines as recurring removal, kind of like darkblast but without costing you a draw to recur. It may still be underwhelming, but in deadguy it was not as good I think because the burden of doubling as a win condition made it relatively weak (in red death that is more of a bonus).

Masticore really breaks goblins in half, seriously. With plague it is ridiculous. The thing is, obviously swords to plowshares is bad as it will most likely 2 for 1 you. But it is the same kind of risk you take with negator...maybe they have the pyrokinesis, but if they don't, they lose. Plus, masticore gives you a solid out against decks like burn and sligh variants. A 4/4 regenerater is terrible for them. Another cool thing is once again he doubles as a win condition. You could even leave in a few duresses with him, taking out maybe an anurid and a negator or two instead (helps protect plague and the masticore). Oh and by the way, disenchant lets him regenerate (remember that, it came up once where the goblin player tried that and I got a few laughs out of it).

As Anwar said, I even brought him in against the mirror, with hymn to tourach being a major problem, and he was a destroyer. Forcing people to have the out or lose is what this deck does I feel. But I haven't really tested him thoroughly. I could have just been lucky, that's the problem. I will try to test it when I get time.

Honestly, right now my heart is set on running the jittes. It seems the most versatile and powerful option, even if it does break the curve a little.

Edit: Oh yeah, and I forgot...one other reason scroll might not be as good is because the landstill "problem", if it could even be called that, will be solved nicely with extirpate. That card is a beating and a half...

[Anarky87]

Edit: Oh yeah, and I forgot...one other reason scroll might not be as good is because the landstill "problem", if it could even be called that, will be solved nicely with extirpate. That card is a beating and a half...

I think I will thoroughly enjoy Extirpating their win conditions after I Sink and Waste them. That's going to be hot :)

[Tao]

I don't think I need to, because I didn't say anywhere you were criticizing Anwar's board (Wherever you got that from...)..

I criticize Anwar's board. That's why I said that that Gempalm Incinerator is bad. Since he made this thread I referred to his latest SB.

I looked at the SB from this thread. It was one page old. Now it is some more pages away because people are discussing to play Masticore and Negator in the same deck.

[nitewolf9]

What's wrong with that? I don't see how simply explaining that I have tried masticore before (yes, in the same deck with negator) and why he is good and bad is grounds for sarcastic remarks. Please provide an explanation of why you are so quick to dismiss the idea.

[Anarky87]

I criticize Anwar's board. That's why I said that that Gempalm Incinerator is bad. Since he made this thread I referred to his latest SB.

I think if you look back through some more posts, you'll see that a lot of us aren't too keen on running Incinerator either as, for me at least, it's too narrow in more than a few aspects. And it was only an idea that Anwar was tossing out there, not that his SB was set in stone. In fact, I believe everyone in here is running a moderately different SB than the next person.


I looked at the SB from this thread. It was one page old. Now it is some more pages away because people are discussing to play Masticore and Negator in the same deck.

And that is wrong because...why? If I remember correctly, you also said Negator was very bad against Goblins when in actuality he's the biggest beating against them and I've only ever sided 1 copy of it out for a Darkblast, leaving me 3 to beat face with. Along with Plague, Negator becomes a runaway train, barreling through their defenses.

I personally haven't tested Masticore in the board, but Nitewolf has and apparently received positive results whereas you only have an unfounded, vague remark that doesn't add anything relevant to the discussion.

[Tao]

I said that Gempalm Incinerator is worse than Fire Covenant. I did not say that Plague is bad so why do you argue that Plague is good if nobody says something different. I don't know what this has to do with my position about playing with Negator against Goblins.

To the Masticore thing:
- you empty your hand very fast
- your curve ends at 3

[nitewolf9]

To the Masticore thing:
- you empty your hand very fast
- your curve ends at 3

This is what makes him a liability. He is powerful, but may not be worth his drawback. Like I said I have had success in the past using masticore, but understand why you wouldn't want to try him out. Jitte should be nuts, but also is technically a 4 drop. Maybe, along with the 4 plagues, 4 dystopias, and 4 extirpates, we could run 3 darkblasts.

Or, what about lose hope? It doesn't recur, but seems okay with plague and helps you find more plagues. It's probably weaker than darkblast but I'm throwing out more ideas once again.

[Firebrothers]

Yo guys lets not turn this thread into an all out flamefest. Lets get back to the development instead of the he said she said bs that the last dozen or so posts are about.

[Anarky87]

To the Masticore thing:
- you empty your hand very fast

Sometimes I empty my entire hand onto the board. But I'll say that at any given point during the game, I'll have something in my hand: Extra discard to their empty hand, extra Dark Rituals and land, etc. The deck *having the capability* to empty its hand doesn't mean it has too.


- your curve ends at 3
Says where? And how is Masticore going to completely destroy your curve? The deck can accumulate a lot of mana and land and it's not out of the question to support Masticore. Especially when someone else has actually tested the card in this deck and it appears you haven't.

The point is that Jitte and Masticore are both excellent tools that the deck can use to its advantage. Dismissing options based on conjecture only hinders development. If you don't want to run Jitte or Masticore or Plague or Darkblast or whatever, then don't. No one is twisting your arm to do so and nothing is set in stone. All we're doing is offering options that might work advantageously for the deck through testing, but the whole, "You're playing X+Y in the same deck....I'll let you draw the lines." really does nothing for anyone. I have a tournament coming up on the 17th and I'm going to play the board plan of:

4 Dystopia
4 Plague
3 Therapy
3 Jitte
1 Darkblast

And let everyone know how that worked for me. After PC becomes legal, I'll probably switch it up to:

4 Dystopia
4 Plague
3 Extirpate
3 Jitte
1 Darkblast

[AnwarA101]

I criticize Anwar's board. That's why I said that that Gempalm Incinerator is bad. Since he made this thread I referred to his latest SB.

I looked at the SB from this thread. It was one page old. Now it is some more pages away because people are discussing to play Masticore and Negator in the same deck.

You are welcome to criticize my choices. I don't claim to have any monopoly on good ideas. I agree that Gempalm Incinerator is narrow, but when 20% of a tournament can easily be Goblins you really need to make sure you beat them. Beating them can be worth more than worrying about the 2 players playing Angel Stompy or Faerie Stompy. Most of the time in tournament play I usually play against it twice and I usually split with the deck. I don't believe that is acceptable if you really want to T8 and probably win any given tournament. Gempalm is to make sure that you can really tilt the matchup in your favor. I know you guys have been doing well against it post-board, but losing can still make you think. You can never be too prepared for the most popular deck.

[Firebrothers]

I tested jitte today in the side and had a pretty positive result. I played it against burn and goblins and found that if it connects then you will win. Against burn I had trouble playing dudes and getting them to stick but I won 2 of the 10 games I played because of the jitte.

Against goblins it was not an austo win but a few games my opponent had to decide between getting rid of a jitte or e plegue. Either way I won both games that it came down to that. I only lost 2 times to goblins and it was because of awesome lackey shenanigans and a ringleader into 2 piledrivers and a warchief with a plegue on the board and me at 14.

I also tested extripilate and still nothing wrong with it except not really knowing what to nab when there are alot of different cards in the yard. Against goblins this is my thought process, ringleader, warchief,plateau, piledriver.

What is everyone else thinking about what to get with extirpilate?

[Happy Gilmore]

What is everyone else thinking about what to get with extirpilate?

Wait...you are boarding in Extripate against them? I think that might be a questionable boarding strategy IMO. Or are you testing Extripate instead of something else in the MD?

[Anarky87]

I also tested Jitte yesterday in a real fast 10 game set just to see how it worked. I never actually drew it for some reason, but I also never lost. I was going to do another 15 games, but I just stopped when I was 10-0 against them post-board. The only times I did see the card was when I dredged one with a Darkblast and the turn after I was going to win I drew one. But it's good to see that someone was able to get one in play and use it effectively. I know that had I drawn one, the games would have been over.

I just feel really commanding in Games 2 and 3. You just have so much against them that the only way I do lose is because I have to mulligan Waste+Swamp hands multiple times. Other than that, their decks just seems to be not as good as mine post-board. One game I kept a 4 land, 2x Plague, Hymn hand, because I knew it'd just win. I let him hit me with a Lackey and then dropped the first one, then I let him hit me with 2x Warchief and PD, then dropped the 2nd one and he never saw any enchantment removal. Of course I was also holding Plagues #3 and #4 in my hand in case he did, but then I just topdecked Negator and swung for 20 over 4 turns while he held crap like SGC, Piledriver, and Ringleader.

As for Extirpate, I'd probably name things that fuel their fire. If I had a Plague out, I'd most likely hit a Warchief or a Piledriver. I wouldn't really worry about hitting Ringleader if you have a Plague, because if you've taken out the Warchiefs or the Piledrivers, then Ringerleader really isn't that great, and just shows them more Goblins they can't use. Without a Plague, I'd definitely hit a Ringleader, as that's their way to get back in the game.

[nitewolf9]

Anarky and Firebrothers, could you list your boards and what you take out for extirpate against goblins? I don't know what I'd take out for it if I already board in 4 plague and 3 jitte. I'm not sure how effective the card is against them as I've never tried it, but I like the idea of being able to completely cut off their splash color (and make plague un-removable).

[Anarky87]

Anarky and Firebrothers, could you list your boards and what you take out for extirpate against goblins? I don't know what I'd take out for it if I already board in 4 plague and 3 jitte. I'm not sure how effective the card is against them as I've never tried it, but I like the idea of being able to completely cut off their splash color (and make plague un-removable).

I don't side in Extirpate for Goblins, I was just commenting on what I would hit with it if I were to side it in. FB's deck is different than the rest of ours, so he probably has room to bring them in. The board I used for yesterday was:

In: +4 Plague, +3 Jitte, +1 Darkblast
Out: -4 Duress, -4 Sinkhole

And then went on to win 10 games straight post-board before I stopped. My current board is on the previous page in my last post to Tao.

[Firebrothers]

Yeah i was testing them over my main deck cabal therapy so technically I was testin 3x main deck extirpilates.I have been pretty disapointed with my main deck cabal therapy and thought that getting rid of an entire 4 of against anything is pretty decent. Anyway here is my currently testing board

4x plague
3x jitte
1x mountain
1x dark blast
2x withered wretch
4x dystopia

As a side for goblins this is what I did.

-4 duress -1 swamp -4 sinkhole
+4 plague +1 dark blast +3 jitte +1 mountain

@ jitte I like the jittes although it often takes a whole 2 turns to get online, but late game they are good and they help against random jank slow decks that I think this deck can not always deal with. I think it is too versatile a card not to use because it fills in so many gaps where the deck lacks.

@ the mountain, I run a lower land count and need a solid red source against a deck packing any wasteland/port

[Firebrothers]

Aight, because of the major lack of posts I decided to post a mini tournement report of this weeks weekly (8 man)tournement.

Match one vs Sliver control.
Game 1
Mad beats with negator and rotting giant on my side + sinking his important lands + a win on my side.
sb - 4 duress -3 Cabal Therapy +4 e plegue +3 jitte
Game 2
E plegue 3rd turn shrinks his dudes as an equipped negator swings in. crystiline sliver mucks it up some but not much
2-0

Match 2 vs Goblins (papasmurf)
game 1
I go first and he opens lacky go. I know he is playing straight red with bolts so I am a little weary about throwing down a giant. I decide to chain his lacky and duress, grabbing a bolt. He throws down 2 lackys and one gets through but he doesnt have anything to back it up with. I take it with a negator and a hippy with no land in play.
sb -4 duress -3 cabal therapy +4 e plegue +3 jitte
game 2
after 2 consecutive sinkholes he sits with one land and one fanatic in play. It is over quick with a negator.
4-0

Match 3 vs solidarity (Barron)
game 1
He has been wanting to test this matchup alot but we havent had the time.
I open up pretty strong raping his hand and getting the beats on with a pair of giants. I missplay by not casting a negator one turn and it costs me. He has like 3 cards in his hand and decides to go off, he meditates into (he later tells me) like a high tide reset impulse and brainstorm (or something) and proceeds to combo off. Pretty damn lucky if you ask me but it was my mistake for not playing the negator.
Game 2
Pretty bumed about his awesome meditate I decide to focus up a little. A first turn hippy gets forced but is followed up by a sinkhole and a few hymns. I dont let him much cards in his hand as I focus more on duress' and cabal therapys and sac a giant or two as i beat in with a shade. Shade seems really good in the match as it can deal alot of damage in a few turns. He can't go off and we go to game 3.
game 3
Same story pretty much but he tries to go off late with like 3 cards in hand and fizzles.

6-1

So I win 17.50 in store credit and get 1st place. I didnt really get a chance to use much of the jitte from the sb against goblins but it feels like it will help alot agsint jank decks like the sliver deck I played against. Besides that I just can not wait untill extriplate becomes legal because I just got some off of ebay. This is the second week in a row that I placed first. Is there anything stopping red death?

P.S. gonna test alot of thresh this week i'll keep ya'll informed on how it goes.

[laststepdown]

Firebrothers-Jitte really helps? I've been weary to put it in this deck, only because of the slow bonus. Hit back the forums after your testing against thresh goes!

[Firebrothers]

Well so far it has been pretty positive, it helps against janky decks more then ever though because of the slower pace of the games. Usually I can not handle getting into late games vs shitty decks because as the game goes on they have a better advantage because I am only drawing one card a turn and it could be dark ritual, duress or something else that does nothing while they are drawing more creatures that eventually overwhelm me. Jitte helps take care of those creatures and gains some life back and pumps my dudes bigger.

Against goblins you already have 4 plagues but they can still win under a plague. So give them a choice to naturalize/disenchant a jitte or a plague and you know you have them beat already.

[nitewolf9]

Yeah, I'm liking the boarded jittes alot I think. I can't wait for extirpate to be legal...

On a side note, here is a pic of my version of red death:

http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=110130#post110130

It's on the last page right now I think. Some cool stuff, I don't think I wana do much else to it.

[Anarky87]

Pretty cool, Wolf. I'm working on pimping the deck myself, I just need to pick up a few more foils and betas. I might post pics of my own later. A bunch of us here were wondering about a which cards to actually use to pimp it with: Foil Lightning Bolts or Alpha/Beta, Foil Dark Rituals or Alpha/Beta, Foil Hypnotic Specter or Alpha/Beta, etc. And I haven't quite decided on what to do yet.

[laststepdown]

I got my wolf picture Hymn to Tourachs signed by Susan Van Camp at Gencon '06 :). I do have to say, the FBB Badlands look great with the rest of the deck-mine are unfortunately white :( but i'm running 2 DCI Negators, so that's a plus.

[Anarky87]

I got my wolf picture Hymn to Tourachs signed by Susan Van Camp at Gencon '06 :). I do have to say, the FBB Badlands look great with the rest of the deck-mine are unfortunately white :( but i'm running 2 DCI Negators, so that's a plus.

I'd like to have something done with my Hymns. I still have WB Badlands, but I'm working on it! I also have 4 Urza's Destiny Foil Negators, because I just thought they looked better; along with the usual foil Giants, foil Anurid, and foil Duresses. My Delta's are gonna be tricky though.

[nitewolf9]

I'd like to have some foil urza's destiny negators, that is probably what I'd do next. I don't think the foil fetches are worth the cost really, but if I can get em I probably will.

On the board, has anyone tried scroll over jitte? I personally think jitte is the way to go, but I was just curious as to how good it is against goblins. I remember it being alright because it works on it's own, but jitte might just be too powerful to not use.

[Firebrothers]

On the board, has anyone tried scroll over jitte? I personally think jitte is the way to go, but I was just curious as to how good it is against goblins. I remember it being alright because it works on it's own, but jitte might just be too powerful to not use.

Yeah I have tried scrolls over jittes but have been kinda disapointed with them. Jitte takes down more then one goblin a turn on average while the scroll has a chance to take down one a turn. Scroll often does nothing early game while jitte has to be dealt with or they lose. The versitility of jitte makes it far superior to scroll in my opinion.

As for pimping my deck, its not a big deal to me. All my lands are unglued though. And I did buy my badlands off of some dude for 10 bucks a piece so they are 'pimp' in my opinion.

Edit: As for that thresh testing I played 5 games prebored yesterday with me going first. I lost 3 won 2 but it may be because of my teams thresh list which I think is a little different. But either way I still have alot of testing to go which I should get finished with this afternoon.

[laststepdown]

Cursed Scroll:
Pros-Don't need a creature on board to activate, Colorless damage in a stalemate, and one mana cheaper to hardcast.
Cons-Can be mana intensive, fewer points of damage per turn than +4/+4 given by Jitte.

Umezawa's Jitte:
Pros-It can usually equip/swing the same turn as casted with Dark Rit. It can gain life. It can not only kill, but save creatures.
Cons-Without a creature on board and 4 available mana, it's a dead draw.


I'm going to have to lean towards Firebrothers' opinion on Jitte as well here. In Deadguy, the Scroll is better (in most builds) because you run a less potent creature base, and can use that extra 2 damage to provide a clock. Here, all your guys are fat enough to stick around a while, and give a decent clock on your own. Jitte makes the equipped creature freakin' superman.

[AnwarA101]

I was asked by a fellow Source member to give him some analysis on the Red Death / Solidarity matchup. I thought that I would share those thoughts with everyone by posting them here.

Game 1 - The preboard game is the toughest. Obviously if you know your opponent is playing Solidarity you can make a few decisions with whether to mulligan. If you are on the draw and you don't have Duress or a Dark Ritual you might want to consider mulliganing. The reason is that these hands almost always get remanded out of the game. Turn 2 play which is remanded and Turn 3 which may or may not resolve and then your opponent might just go off on your turn 4. It should be noted that the games I have lost to Solidarity they are usually game 1 on the draw and the ones without 2 black sources (almost never do this).

After that crucial decision of whether to mulligan you need to decide what to Duress if you have it. I've often found myself duressing Remand especially if I have a turn 2 disruption spell. The reason is that you need to continue the assault and the turn 2 remand will suck the life out of your plan. If they don't have remand usually take the High Tide and if no High Tide look to see what is the scarce resource in their hand and pick that one. It can be draw, untap, or High Tide.

If you have a choice to play which creature always pick Hypnotic Specter over all other creatures because he is essentially a disruption spell that does 2 damage. If not then go for Negator, Shade, and Giant/Anurid last as he does the least damage and doesn't disrupt. Make sure you get a threat down soon, don't just play disruption even though you need to play enough disruption to prevent their go off. If you don't get the creature down early enough you'll lose because they'll have turns to make land drops and then top deck meditate and then just go busted.

Games 2/3 - If you have Cabal Therapy in your board bring it in. Most likely cutting Chain Lightning as its the weakest spell against them. If you are on the play and have Cabal Therapy/Duress you will want to hit Brainstorm as it an amazing card against you, it draws 3 cards and puts the best 2 cards where you can't touch them. On the the draw you want to hit Remand again as it will damage your turn 2 play and push you back a whole turn. I can't stress how much Remand is so close to Time Walk in this matchup as it prevents your play, leaves you tapped out, and they draw a card.

This game is alot easier with Therapy because if you draw extra creatures you just flashback Therapy to rip apart their hand. Make sure to make use of your Rituals as best as possible. I've found playing a turn 1 creature off a ritual is just fine especially if I don't have the disruption spell in hand. They also have only 1 answer for a creature on turn 1 and you are okay when they Force of Will because it sets them back a card as well.

In general don't play your Bolts both in game 1 and 2 until the last turn. You never want to give away that you have Bolt in your hand as it will usually cause them to go off earlier than they want to anyway as they might fear Lightning Bolt in response to High Tide.

A last little tip for everyone who thinks Wasteland is dead in this matchup. Try to keep your Wastelands open whenever you can. If your opponent casts a Brainstorm with a fetch on the table, waste the fetch with Brainstorm on the stack. Often a Solidarity player has to get suboptimal cards out of his or her hand and this prevents them from shuffling away their trash. This may not seem very significant, but it can matter and especially if you don't need your wasteland to continue playing your spells.

I hope this helps and if there are other things I think of I will post an update. I want to stress that you can't take this matchup for granted. My loss in Top8 at the Duel for Duals in July 06 was to Ewokslayer playing Solidarity. My third game hand was one of those that could get remanded out of the game and that's exactly what happened. The same thing happened to PowerGamer1003 on the day before, but his hands were pretty poor.

[Anarky87]

Edit: As for that thresh testing I played 5 games prebored yesterday with me going first. I lost 3 won 2 but it may be because of my teams thresh list which I think is a little different. But either way I still have alot of testing to go which I should get finished with this afternoon.

This should be accurate, as since everything is snowed out here today, I decided to do my pre-board testing against U/G/W Thresh. This, like the last time, was a 15 game set with me going first.

Pre-Board

Thresh: 8
Red Death: 7

Overall: 47%

This wasn't overwhelmingly positive, and the numbers don't really tell how much I got trounced around in that matchup. The back breaker is Mystic f*cking Enforcer. That thing just bends you over the majority of the time it comes down. Now there were some games where I was able to win through it, but only on the back of holding 2 burn spells and hoping one didn't get countered. My opponents were able to find him a majority of the time and play it and they were using the 4 Goose, 4 Bear, 2 Enforcer version with Portent and Predict for more dig. Being so, they were able to dig immediately into Daze for my turn 2 or 3 plays. Like almost every game.

I assume that the post-board match should hopefully improve the matchup with Dystopia and either Therapy or Jitte, I haven't decided which to board in yet. Jitte would let me shrink they're Werebears to chump size or let me pump my dudes to eat Gooses, so I may try those.

Edit: Finished the other 15 games post-board with the results being as followed:

Post-Board

Thresh: 3
Red Death: 12

Overall: 80% in Red Death's favor.

Dystopia and to a lesser extent Jitte were pretty huge post-board. Dystopia solves a lot of the deck's problem from game 1 by just completely wiping their board. Jitte was alright, it didn't win me any games specifically, but it was their and I'm sure was a pain for the Thresh player until he found a Needle for it; of course then just gaining 12 life isn't that hot of a trade off. There were a few times where Thresh had to mulligan to either hit lands or better quality hands and Red Death can significantly take a advatange of this. I believe in one of the last few games I Wasted him 3 times in a row which opened a window for me to just go to town. But the testing went positively.

[Firebrothers]

About the solidarity matchup, you also can't forget about twincast. A twincasted hymn or bolt can be pretty devastating, another reason to hold back the bolts.

[nitewolf9]

I agree with noting that twincast can "fork" a bolt back at one of your creatures, buying them plenty of time (especially with hyppie, or if you have the turn 1 negator), but you can't hold back the hymns. Keep up the disruption and don't keep hands games two and three that either lose to remand OR that don't have diruption AND at least one threat. Don't worry about their hand, instead make them answer yours.

By the way, turn one negator I think is > turn one hyppie on the play. On the draw, the hyppie is probably better. If you are on turns 2 or greater and don't have a threat down doing damage, the hyppie is the better choice. I made the mistake of playing negator over hyppie on turn 3 and it cost me the game.

I have also kept "busted" hands involving ritual -> duress hymn, then turn two sinkhole, but with no clock I still lost. This hand gave them time to recover while I had to topdeck a damage source. You are favored in the matchup, but don't play like it's an autowin...play smart.

[barron]

I agree with nightworlf. I have been thinking about it since my matchup against firebrother and, one the play, I think ritual -> Negator is a stronger play than ritual -> hypnotic, but only if you have a hymn and/or sinkhole to back it up. (one duress may be enough, but I am not 100% sure on that). I don't think it is drastically better thank rit -> hypnotic, but it puts solidarity on a 4 clock turn, and with any disruption that makes the game extremely difficult for the solidarity player. But on the draw a turn one hypnotic is a *much* stronger play since it is disruption and the ease of comboing off on turn 5 rather than turn 4 is drastic.
Also, on the play I think an early sinkhole is more damaging than an early hymn, while on the draw it's the opposite.
I think hitting a brainstorm with durress and/or cabal ritual is a good move, but not always the best move. I think hightide might be a better target since the solidarity player *must* have one to beat this deck, but if you see their hand with durress and it doesn't look so hot taking that brainstorm might be a better idea.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

, but don't play like it's an autowin...Unless your plays are turn 1 Dark Ritual into Duress, Hymn to Tourach. Turn 2 SInkhole. Turn three Hippie. Turn 4 Duress into Negator.

Fixed. :cool:

[Firebrothers]

I agree with nightworlf. I have been thinking about it since my matchup against firebrother and, one the play, I think ritual -> Negator is a stronger play than ritual -> hypnotic, but only if you have a hymn and/or sinkhole to back it up. (one duress may be enough, but I am not 100% sure on that). I don't think it is drastically better thank rit -> hypnotic, but it puts solidarity on a 4 clock turn, and with any disruption that makes the game extremely difficult for the solidarity player. But on the draw a turn one hypnotic is a *much* stronger play since it is disruption and the ease of comboing off on turn 5 rather than turn 4 is drastic.
Also, on the play I think an early sinkhole is more damaging than an early hymn, while on the draw it's the opposite.
I think hitting a brainstorm with durress and/or cabal ritual is a good move, but not always the best move. I think hightide might be a better target since the solidarity player *must* have one to beat this deck, but if you see their hand with durress and it doesn't look so hot taking that brainstorm might be a better idea.

Another strong card that I think solidarity packs is meditate as I found out in the tournament against Barron. All of our disruption is nullified if they get a meditate to resolve. But I guess any disruption against this deck is good disruption.

[nitewolf9]

Fixed. :cool:

oh, yeah :tongue:

[AnwarA101]

I agree with nightworlf. I have been thinking about it since my matchup against firebrother and, one the play, I think ritual -> Negator is a stronger play than ritual -> hypnotic, but only if you have a hymn and/or sinkhole to back it up. (one duress may be enough, but I am not 100% sure on that). I don't think it is drastically better thank rit -> hypnotic, but it puts solidarity on a 4 clock turn, and with any disruption that makes the game extremely difficult for the solidarity player. But on the draw a turn one hypnotic is a *much* stronger play since it is disruption and the ease of comboing off on turn 5 rather than turn 4 is drastic.
Also, on the play I think an early sinkhole is more damaging than an early hymn, while on the draw it's the opposite.
I think hitting a brainstorm with durress and/or cabal ritual is a good move, but not always the best move. I think hightide might be a better target since the solidarity player *must* have one to beat this deck, but if you see their hand with durress and it doesn't look so hot taking that brainstorm might be a better idea.

The decision to play either Hypnotic Specter or Negator is pretty tough one. I personally think you can't go wrong with Specter as he is disruption every turn and can basically become a sort of soft-lock. I believe that against like this Red Death has to play control first and then aggro second. With hyppie you have the ability to do both. While playing Negator isn't a bad choice, I'm not sure its the best one.

While High Tide players can't combo early without High Tide, they really aren't able to sculpt their hand really well without Brainstorm. You need more than Tide to go off. You need a real draw spell and you need an untap effect especially if your resources are being attacked as they are by Red Death.

[Anarky87]

I saw where Anwar finally got to the T8 at the GAGG tournament, so a lot of grats to you for breaking through.

[Firebrothers]

Yeah anwar where is the tournement report?

[Jiaozy]

I was testing the other day against a mate of mine who's playing Red Death and I was playing Vial Affinity.

We noticed that this deck has a really tough time beating affinity that can put bigger, cheaper threats on the board just as fast (turn 2-3 Enforcer isn't unlikely), has more draw power (Chromatic Sphere and Thoughcast) and can wipe your board with burn (Shrapnel Blast)..

He's a good player and I noticed very few play mistakes but it seemed that he was always coming short on cards to deal with my threats so we thought of adding something like Night Whisper or Dark Confidant to add more reach to the deck.

What are the general ideas on this?

I've seen a few of the most recent lists and they're basically the one on the OP without any source of card draw, wich makes the deck always come up short against other aggro with some card advantage (Gobbo with Ringleaders, Affinity with the draws I mentioned)...

Or are we playing the deck in the wrong way? :confused:

[Anarky87]

I recently went 1-2 today at a small local tourny, losing to Pox and an Enchantress deck that stormed up spells for a lethal Tendrils. Some games I was just drawing really poor and I had to mulligan numerable times into somewhat keepable hands. I did beat U/G Madness 2-1, but I don't know, sometimes it just seems I lose to random jank a lot.

[nitewolf9]

I was testing the other day against a mate of mine who's playing Red Death and I was playing Vial Affinity.

We noticed that this deck has a really tough time beating affinity that can put bigger, cheaper threats on the board just as fast (turn 2-3 Enforcer isn't unlikely), has more draw power (Chromatic Sphere and Thoughcast) and can wipe your board with burn (Shrapnel Blast)..

He's a good player and I noticed very few play mistakes but it seemed that he was always coming short on cards to deal with my threats so we thought of adding something like Night Whisper or Dark Confidant to add more reach to the deck.

What are the general ideas on this?

I've seen a few of the most recent lists and they're basically the one on the OP without any source of card draw, wich makes the deck always come up short against other aggro with some card advantage (Gobbo with Ringleaders, Affinity with the draws I mentioned)...

Or are we playing the deck in the wrong way? :confused:

Is affinity even a meta concern at this point? I think there was one affinity deck at running gag and it didn't do very well. You do have a bad matchup against affinity, as does most other aggro control (thresh, although they do have swords to plowshares). Null rod in the board was a complete hoser but it just didn't come in often enough to warrant it. I really like the new board with jitte and Anwar can tell you that everything was used on Saturday.

Although I have no regrets playing solidarity that day, this is still my favorite deck and Anwar going X-0 in the swiss really made a strong argument for it being a force.

Oh, and Anwar...RITUAL NEGATOR!!! ALWAYS! How could you have possibly resisted the coolest play in legacy? :frown: Not saying that you would have beaten that survival deck, but that doesn't mean I can't give you a hard time.

[Anarky87]

So what was the the final board configuration? What did Anwar play against? Is there anything you think you could have done differently against the Survival deck? What were your final impressions about the deck's performance? I'm a curious person.

[AnwarA101]

Yeah anwar where is the tournement report?

Funny you should write this post while we were still driving home from the tournament on Sunday. We had quite a long ride so I couldn't really write a report. That should be up in the next couple of days.

Take nitewolf9's advice to heart. Ritual, Negator is rarely the wrong play and often just the right one. My reasoning was highly flawed and my difficulties with Survival decks in the past probably clouded my judgement (URABAHN was right as well about playing Negator).

All things aside it was a great day for Red Death and X-0 in the swiss is really awesome.

[Firebrothers]

Anarky, I scrubbed as well this weekend going 2-2 losing to goblins twice. I had horrible hands all day. The first goblin matchup my first 3 draws were duress' after a saclanded once also. It was horrible. Both games against both goblin decks I saw all of my jittes but never got them active.

Perhaps our underpreformance helped Anwar in his tournement.

[nitewolf9]

Cabal therapy seemed like it was wrecking storm combo all day long as well, which leads me into a debate over extirpate. I'm definitely going to be testing it, but therapy is such a house that I don't think I'd want to cut it. There is still some disparity over an "ideal board", but I think that is the next thing to look at.

By the way, 1 of darkblast for the win in the top 8 game was quite funny. I'll let Anwar tell that story in his report.

[Anarky87]

Anarky, I scrubbed as well this weekend going 2-2 losing to goblins twice. I had horrible hands all day. The first goblin matchup my first 3 draws were duress' after a saclanded once also. It was horrible. Both games against both goblin decks I saw all of my jittes but never got them active.

Perhaps our underpreformance helped Anwar in his tournement.

I wish I could have played against Goblins and the Hanni Fish deck that was there, as I do pretty well against them. In the third game against the combo Enchantress, I mulled into a 5 card hand that had a swamp, ritual, specter, Duress, Duress and kept. I Ritualed out the Specter turn 1, and then proceeded to not draw another land for about 6-7 turns, staring at my 3 Jitte's and Sinkhole. So naturally he got a Confinement lock on me and combo'd out, but I had some counters on Jitte so I gained 4 life, putting me at 1 life. He needed his 2nd Tendrils to win and only had 4 cards left in his library, he casts an enchantment, draws exactly 4 cards and cast the 2nd Tendrils. Kind of disheartening, but what can ya do? Win some lose some.

But mad congrats, Anwar, for storming the swiss.

[AnwarA101]

I saw where Anwar finally got to the T8 at the GAGG tournament, so a lot of grats to you for breaking through.

To be accurate both PowerGamer1003 and I both made T8 back in July 06. This was the first appearance of Red Death. Check out these links -

Day1 (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t%5BC1%5D=leg&start_date=2006-07-09&end_date=2006-07-09&city=Richmond&limit=100)
Day2 (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t%5BC1%5D=leg&start_date=2006-07-16&end_date=2006-07-16&city=Richmond&limit=100)

[Anarky87]

To be accurate both PowerGamer1003 and I both made T8 back in July 06. This was the first appearance of Red Death. Check out these links -

Day1 (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t%5BC1%5D=leg&start_date=2006-07-09&end_date=2006-07-09&city=Richmond&limit=100)
Day2 (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t%5BC1%5D=leg&start_date=2006-07-16&end_date=2006-07-16&city=Richmond&limit=100)

Yeah, I know about those, I was referencing to where you got 10th at the DFD, and then you made 9th at your local tournament with the deck, and now T8. Like you were just gradually working up to it.

[Firebrothers]

Has anyone noticed that this deck is not under the radar anymore? People are actually discussing red death matchups. All be it is usually grouped together with the B/W confidant decks but we are slowly gaining some respect. So do you think that people will be more prepared for red death and we will lose some edge in certain matchups?

[Tacosnape]

Okay so, I've just recently started playing this deck, and I'm messing around on MWS against a guy playing some sort of White-Green turboland deck with Exalteds, Monestaries, Decrees, SDT's, Explorations, Horn of Greed, and so forth.

Game 1 I have to mulligan down to six and hit no acceleration, but I manage to power my way through with Negator and Shade.

Game 2 I boarded in Dystopia for Exalted/Exploration/fear of Compost, though it turned out he didn't have a sideboard as I found out after game 3. So probably not the best play. He Wraths away my board (Which I didn't expect, as I didn't see it game 1) and beats me to death with Exalteds.

Game 3 was the point of this post. I get to go first finally, and my draw is subpar, but I manage to get him to 11 with a small Shade. He has Horn of Greed, and I land drop into an explosive hand. I duress him to make sure it's safe, he has no Divining Top out, so I ritual into Negator/Giant, preparing to swing lethal next turn.

He topdecks a land, followed by Moment's Peace, which buys him time to find SDT and Wrath of God. He then explodes with card advantage and I feel the end is near.

But then he hits a land stall and I start hitting land and power up off Horn of Greed. Every threat I drop he removes, and I quickly realize that I'm not going to beat this guy with creatures, and I lack sufficient burn to do it because he's Pulse of the Fielded by this point and I can't topdeck discard.

So I realize his library has two cards less than mine due to Horn of Greed. I've Hymned away one Decree. I decide I'm going to deck him. With Red Death.

My life total is near 30 at this point thanks to STP's. I double bolt an Exalted, Sinkhole a Monestary, and I survive the second Decree by dropping out three Dystopias in one turn. Time passes and I run him out of STP's, I'm sitting on Wastes for Monestary, and I've got just enough burn to hopefully handle his Exalteds. Then I get a Negator he can't answer on turn 72. He swings and knocks him low, and I finally manage to Hymn away all his Pulse of the Fields. Then he topdecks his last Wrath and kills it. Back to the original plan, knowing if he has a third decree I'm dead. I get a shade out with enough rituals in hand to swing for 23, which he proceeds to fog for six turns with Moment's Peace, before he finally gets to the bottom of his deck and concedes at 2 cards remaining.

A victory by decking for Red Death. I rule.

So if you're afraid to build this deck for fear of a bad long game, there you go. Red Death can win slow. Even if you're not Anwar drawing 1.6 Dark Rituals per hand.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

Okay so, I've just recently started playing this deck, and I'm messing around on MWS against a guy playing some sort of White-Green turboland deck with Exalteds, Monestaries, Decrees, SDT's, Explorations, Horn of Greed, and so forth.

Game 1 I have to mulligan down to six and hit no acceleration, but I manage to power my way through with Negator and Shade.

Game 2 I boarded in Dystopia for Exalted/Exploration/fear of Compost, though it turned out he didn't have a sideboard as I found out after game 3. So probably not the best play. He Wraths away my board (Which I didn't expect, as I didn't see it game 1) and beats me to death with Exalteds.

Game 3 was the point of this post. I get to go first finally, and my draw is subpar, but I manage to get him to 11 with a small Shade. He has Horn of Greed, and I land drop into an explosive hand. I duress him to make sure it's safe, he has no Divining Top out, so I ritual into Negator/Giant, preparing to swing lethal next turn.

He topdecks a land, followed by Moment's Peace, which buys him time to find SDT and Wrath of God. He then explodes with card advantage and I feel the end is near.

But then he hits a land stall and I start hitting land and power up off Horn of Greed. Every threat I drop he removes, and I quickly realize that I'm not going to beat this guy with creatures, and I lack sufficient burn to do it because he's Pulse of the Fielded by this point and I can't topdeck discard.

So I realize his library has two cards less than mine due to Horn of Greed. I've Hymned away one Decree. I decide I'm going to deck him. With Red Death.

My life total is near 30 at this point thanks to STP's. I double bolt an Exalted, Sinkhole a Monestary, and I survive the second Decree by dropping out three Dystopias in one turn. Time passes and I run him out of STP's, I'm sitting on Wastes for Monestary, and I've got just enough burn to hopefully handle his Exalteds. Then I get a Negator he can't answer on turn 72. He swings and knocks him low, and I finally manage to Hymn away all his Pulse of the Fields. Then he topdecks his last Wrath and kills it. Back to the original plan, knowing if he has a third decree I'm dead. I get a shade out with enough rituals in hand to swing for 23, which he proceeds to fog for six turns with Moment's Peace, before he finally gets to the bottom of his deck and concedes at 2 cards remaining.

A victory by decking for Red Death. I rule.

So if you're afraid to build this deck for fear of a bad long game, there you go. Red Death can win slow. Even if you're not Anwar drawing 1.6 Dark Rituals per hand.




Wow.. how savage. Way to own someone's face with decking. Anyways, yeah Anwar is the master of Dark Rituals. Through testing, I find I win most games with Red Death just thanks to Dark Ritual. It is truely overpowering.

[diffy]

Could someone post an uptodate Decklist please? or is the first post being actualised?

Thanks

[Ninj4]

it pretty much hasn't changed except for the sideboard. Personally, i did take out a singleton shade and the wretch for 2 flesh reavers. <3 that card too much.

[Citrus-God]

How do you like the Flash Reaver's so far? With such a fast clock and burn, it seems kinda good, but the fact this deck is so aggressive, decks like RDW and Goblins will actually win against it, when in reality, without Flesh Reavers, it went to 55/45 in your favor. Excess amounts of Goblins chumb blocking your Flesh Reaver kinda stings. I can see this good against combo.

[AnwarA101]

A victory by decking for Red Death. I rule.

So if you're afraid to build this deck for fear of a bad long game, there you go. Red Death can win slow. Even if you're not Anwar drawing 1.6 Dark Rituals per hand.


Best story ever. What's the reason not to play Red Death now? It can even go into the late game. The lesson of this story seems to be that Dystopia is amazing!


Could someone post an uptodate Decklist please? or is the first post being actualised?

Thanks

Here is a link to the decklist I just played last weekend to a 5th place finish. The maindeck is the same, but the board is very different.

http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5141

[Ninj4]

I'm not gunna lie, I'm not sure if its a better inclusion (Flesh Reaver), but it certainly makes the games a lot faster for either player.

I don't think it affects matchup in any crazy amount - it'd make me nervous against iggy but against goblins, it depends on the amount of removal that each player draws and how busted they open up. Damage resolved from flesh reaver before its drawback takes place so its not too bad against goblins as long as you stay within 4 life points.

its slightly better than shade and anurid in the solidarity matchup as your life total doesn't matter (well, not sure now since solidarity splashes burn o-o). It lowers the chance of double shade which is terrible and is 4power instead of 3.

all in all, I like the inclusion of reaver as it makes the deck a little more nerve-wrecking and the games are sped up. Oh yea, you can't bolt it either o-o. I like the inclusion although I'd reconsider it if i were say at columbus or something. then again, at columbus if I weren't going all in with flesh reaver, why play red death at all - play something safe like thresh (pffft) ^_^;;

[nitewolf9]

Thresh will never be safe as long as dystopia exists...

[Tacosnape]

Thresh will never be safe as long as dystopia exists...

QFT. I'm 7-1 with this deck in 3-game matches so far and three of my match wins I lost game one and Dystopia dragged me back from the dead.

Also, I can't help but ask this, but is there a reason Pithing Needle has never made the cut in this deck's sideboard? I wanted it against Survival and against Sword of Fire and Ice of all things, both of which gave me occasional problems, and at times I wouldn't have minded shutting down a fetchland either. It also seems like its ridiculous ease to cast would make it a natural fit into the curve.

Secondly, what's the current official plan for coping with Pyrokinesis? Do we board out the Negators? Keep them in? Board out Half? It completely owned me in game 3 in my goblin match (the one I lost; I didn't see a Negator all game 2.) First it hit my Negator, but I had a Plague out and almost recovered, then a second Kinesis nailed Rotting Giant -and- Shade when I had to tap out to play the Shade.

(EDIT) Thirdly, I hate the Wretched Anurid. I agree that a 4th Rotting Giant is not an option and I certainly don't want to run Flesh Reaver. Is Blind Creeper an option, based on how difficult we make it for the opponents to play spells? (I'm guessing Probably Not since he'd be godawful against Solidarity) On the other end of the spectrum, is the 4th Chain Lightning an option for the mirror? I like the idea of having 8 shots to answer turn one Ritual/Negator. Or rather, turn one Ritual/Anything.

[Radley]

Why don't you gys use unmask? it's a good way to ditch your negator once it's useless.

[nitewolf9]

QFT. I'm 7-1 with this deck in 3-game matches so far and three of my match wins I lost game one and Dystopia dragged me back from the dead.

Also, I can't help but ask this, but is there a reason Pithing Needle has never made the cut in this deck's sideboard? I wanted it against Survival and against Sword of Fire and Ice of all things, both of which gave me occasional problems, and at times I wouldn't have minded shutting down a fetchland either. It also seems like its ridiculous ease to cast would make it a natural fit into the curve.

Secondly, what's the current official plan for coping with Pyrokinesis? Do we board out the Negators? Keep them in? Board out Half? It completely owned me in game 3 in my goblin match (the one I lost; I didn't see a Negator all game 2.) First it hit my Negator, but I had a Plague out and almost recovered, then a second Kinesis nailed Rotting Giant -and- Shade when I had to tap out to play the Shade.

(EDIT) Thirdly, I hate the Wretched Anurid. I agree that a 4th Rotting Giant is not an option and I certainly don't want to run Flesh Reaver. Is Blind Creeper an option, based on how difficult we make it for the opponents to play spells? (I'm guessing Probably Not since he'd be godawful against Solidarity) On the other end of the spectrum, is the 4th Chain Lightning an option for the mirror? I like the idea of having 8 shots to answer turn one Ritual/Negator. Or rather, turn one Ritual/Anything.

Wretched Anurid's drawback is the least harmful I feel out of all the other 2cc "giant" clones you could have here. I think the fact that blind creeper is both terrible against solidarity AND thresh make it not an option.

As far as kinesis goes, well, sometimes they have the double kinesis and go to town on your face. It happens. I tend to try to either play my negators a.) really early to get damage through and hold back a land or two or b.) play him a little later with > 4 lands in play so that kinesis won't rape your board. You can board one or two out, but I wouldn't recommend that...you will be bringing in jitte with the new board and you need threats to strap it on to. Negator will also just end games before they draw their non-goblin answers. Like I said before, play smart and you could also leave some disruption like duress or bring in therapy if you run it to protect the big monster.

[Anarky87]

Why don't you gys use unmask? it's a good way to ditch your negator once it's useless.

I've yet to ever come across a situation where I viewed Negator as a useless card. The deck needs pressure to follow its early game denial or to precede it through Ritual and throwing threats away to unmask doesn't win games. I don't think I've ever had my Negator PK'd in any game. I've had my other threats shot down, but never Negator. I don't SB them out, as you need strong beats in games 2-3 to go along with Jitte, but you can SB out a few if you feel the need. My board plan is -4 Duress, -4 Sinkhole for +4 Plague, +3 Jitte, and +1 Darkblast. And sometimes I'll hold back on my Negators, playing out my other guys first and letting them try to handle those and if they do, dropping Negator and swing for the fences. But if you've kept a good hand, your turn one Negator getting Pyro'd won't matter all that much.

I had a dream last night I took this deck to a major tournament and went 1-2 drop with it. Lol, it was kinda funny, but I remember my friends ragging on me for not playing blue instead (They do that a lot in real life, saying I should play Landstill or HanniFish like them instead of Death). But I don't remember what I lost to, I just remember being 1-2 and then dropping to go run around with some girl that was not my current g/f...Good thing she doesn't visit this site.

[MattH]

You could play that 3/2, fear, affinity for swamps guy.

[Firebrothers]

As my luck has it I played 2 affinity decks this weekend, after changing the board to jittes instead of null rods.

Negator doesnt look so good when staring doen a cranial plated ravager.

Anyway in place of 1 badlands, 1 shade and the Anurid I run 3 MD cabal therapy. Try it out if you dont like the anurid as a little more disruption. Cabal therapy is good against goblins after a matron, ringleader or whatever.

[AnwarA101]

QFT. I'm 7-1 with this deck in 3-game matches so far and three of my match wins I lost game one and Dystopia dragged me back from the dead.

Also, I can't help but ask this, but is there a reason Pithing Needle has never made the cut in this deck's sideboard? I wanted it against Survival and against Sword of Fire and Ice of all things, both of which gave me occasional problems, and at times I wouldn't have minded shutting down a fetchland either. It also seems like its ridiculous ease to cast would make it a natural fit into the curve.

Secondly, what's the current official plan for coping with Pyrokinesis? Do we board out the Negators? Keep them in? Board out Half? It completely owned me in game 3 in my goblin match (the one I lost; I didn't see a Negator all game 2.) First it hit my Negator, but I had a Plague out and almost recovered, then a second Kinesis nailed Rotting Giant -and- Shade when I had to tap out to play the Shade.

(EDIT) Thirdly, I hate the Wretched Anurid. I agree that a 4th Rotting Giant is not an option and I certainly don't want to run Flesh Reaver. Is Blind Creeper an option, based on how difficult we make it for the opponents to play spells? (I'm guessing Probably Not since he'd be godawful against Solidarity) On the other end of the spectrum, is the 4th Chain Lightning an option for the mirror? I like the idea of having 8 shots to answer turn one Ritual/Negator. Or rather, turn one Ritual/Anything.

Pithing Needle has fluctuated in and out of the sideboard (I even ran it in the maindeck once in Suicide Black). The real problem with Pithing Needle is that it never did enough in any matchup. While its good against Goblins it isn't as good as Plague. In other matchups it just seemed okay. Sure its fine against Survival, but I refuse to board for a deck that sees very little play and even less success.

I've debated what to do against Goblins and Negator. I've decided that boarding him out is usually a mistake. You need significant threats to beat Goblins and he is one of your best. Sure he has a drawback against Kinesis, but playing smartly can easily protect you against a Kinesis. Sometimes you won't be able to protect your Negator and you have to decide whether to play him blind or sit on him. My advice is just play him. You have two options here you either lose to the Pyrokinesis he has or lose to the one he doesn't have.

Don't think I haven't searched for a replacement for Wretch Anurid. While I don't think he's great his drawback is a bit overrated in my opinion. I've lost to Goblins when they were able to put Siege-Gang into play when I had Anurid out, but I lost because they had Siege-Gang in play and not because I took 4 points of damage to the dome. The 4 points of damage was icing on the cake for the Goblin player but not the real reason he won.

This deck isn't really for the faint of heart. You have to accept that you might lose when your opponent is able to advantage of your drawbacks, but this deck goes a long way for building that into its design. You have bolts to destroy blockers, duress and hymn to protect your creatures, sinkhole and wasteland to set your opponent back on what they want to play. You've got to come to terms with that before you can really succeed with the deck. Its about committing to the philosophy of the deck.

[kicks_422]

This deck isn't really for the faint of heart. You have to accept that you might lose when your opponent is able to advantage of your drawbacks, but this deck goes a long way for building that into its design. You have bolts to destroy blockers, duress and hymn to protect your creatures, sinkhole and wasteland to set your opponent back on what they want to play. You've got to come to terms with that before you can really succeed with the deck. Its about committing to the philosophy of the deck.

It is SUICIDE black, after all. :tongue:

I've been fiddling with the deck and have loved the combination of disruption and a quick clock. I have dropped a land to fit in the 4th Chain Lightning though... Is this dangerous, going down to 20 lands in a deck that runs 4 Wastelands?...

[Firebrothers]

It is SUICIDE black, after all. :tongue:

I've been fiddling with the deck and have loved the combination of disruption and a quick clock. I have dropped a land to fit in the 4th Chain Lightning though... Is this dangerous, going down to 20 lands in a deck that runs 4 Wastelands?...

Just do not keep a hand without 2 black sources because it may look good with a swamp, ritual and hippy in your hand but 9 times out of 10 you will never hit that second swamp.

[Tacosnape]

Pithing Needle has fluctuated in and out of the sideboard (I even ran it in the maindeck once in Suicide Black). The real problem with Pithing Needle is that it never did enough in any matchup. While its good against Goblins it isn't as good as Plague. In other matchups it just seemed okay. Sure its fine against Survival, but I refuse to board for a deck that sees very little play and even less success.

I've debated what to do against Goblins and Negator. I've decided that boarding him out is usually a mistake. You need significant threats to beat Goblins and he is one of your best. Sure he has a drawback against Kinesis, but playing smartly can easily protect you against a Kinesis. Sometimes you won't be able to protect your Negator and you have to decide whether to play him blind or sit on him. My advice is just play him. You have two options here you either lose to the Pyrokinesis he has or lose to the one he doesn't have.

Don't think I haven't searched for a replacement for Wretch Anurid. While I don't think he's great his drawback is a bit overrated in my opinion. I've lost to Goblins when they were able to put Siege-Gang into play when I had Anurid out, but I lost because they had Siege-Gang in play and not because I took 4 points of damage to the dome. The 4 points of damage was icing on the cake for the Goblin player but not the real reason he won.

But Pithing Needle does a little in a lot of matchups. It hits fetchlands, which means it fits right in with the land destruction strategy. It stops opponent's equipment, Survival, Aether Vial, Gempalm Incinerator, as well as countless bizarre random cards. I even find myself naming Wasteland on occasion with it against Goblins to ensure I get Plagues out if my hand is a bit sketchy.

I agree boarding out threats is probably not the best plan. I've been leaving two Duress in for Goblins, as hitting Vial or Kinesis is pretty much money in the bank. I've been cutting Sinkhole or Hymn depending on whether I'm on the play or the draw respectively, and I've found this is working very very well. I never want Sinkhole on the draw against Goblins, but I'd prefer it (especially since I run Needle) on the play to Hymn.

I'm running a fourth Chain over the Wretched Anurid. (The deck can't support four Giants, I assume? I haven't tested it but I'm guessing you have.) I'll mark the Chain when I assemble the deck IRL to let me know how often I wish it was an Anurid, but there's a lot of times I don't get the fast ritual start and save my ass by being able to Burn away random small accelerants like Birds, Lackey, and so forth.

On a side note, I didn't really care for Jitte in the sideboard. It doesn't really fit the Ritual curve all that much. What's it in there to handle? Just Goblins? Surely there's something better.

[nitewolf9]

Jitte is in there because it is a very powerful, very flexible answer to a lot of problems you will run into. Every creature you have is a great wielder of it, even though sometimes it just doesn't curve out very well. Goblins gets hit hard by it, and in conjunction with plague you just smash them. It really isn't even funny. Ask Anwar about that. Plus it is good against decks like Zoo and Burn (which you probably won't win anyway, but it gives you an out that will steal the game in some cases, like I said). Oh yeah, and it also answers opposing jittes (which = a big problem). In fact, I'd be hard pressed to find something the card doesn't do (it's just a question of what you'd want to take out for it in what matchups, obviously leaving it boarded for combo/some control).

The card is fucking stupid, seriously.

Darkblast could be a reasonable alternative, as could cursed scroll, but I just don't think they are as good (aside from the one of darkblast, which is apparently the nuts against survival :cool: ).

[Tacosnape]

I suppose Jitte does have its merits. It just didn't feel right to me when I tried it. Not certain why.

So what's basically the entire list of everything that's been run or considered in this deck's sideboard and what the point of it was?

I love Plague and I love Dystopia so eight of my slots are set. The other seven bounces between any combination of Meltdown, Cabal Therapy, Jitte, Darkblast, Needle, Vendetta, and so forth. I imagine my configuration for the last seven will either be a 3/2/2, or a 4/2/1 or 3/3/1 if the 1's a Darkblast.

[nitewolf9]

The breakdown was pretty much a solid 8 spots in the board
(4 dystopia, 4 engineered plague...moved to plague after debating infest and fire covenant), and then 7 "other" slots.

Right now I think I'm testing 4 extirpate and 3 jitte in those slots, but we'll see just how powerful extirpate is in this deck. Cabal therapy might just be simply better, in which case I'd run 3 and the random 1 darkblast for the 8th removal spell (not counting jitte).

In the jitte spots, debatable inclusions:
- null rod: maybe in certain metagames it's powerful enough
- pithing needle: still up in the air, not very powerful usually but can be useful
- cursed scroll: colorless removal that acts as a late game threat, good against control like landstill but who cares about that, we have game against them anyway
- darkblast: running multiple copies with plague seems okay, still unsure on how good this is.
- meltdown: see null rod, good answer for artifacts/affinity but really very narrow when you think about it
- overload: artifact hate, but is it needed?
- masticore: somewhat fulfills the jitte roll, only jitte does it better
- fire covenant: do we really want to smash goblins that incredibly badly? Unnecessary with plagues I think.

In the cabal therapy slots:
- extirpate: still debatable whether or not this is all that good, definitely hoses a few archetypes, but therapy is simply amazing. Testing this currently.
- tormod's crypt: yard hate, of the most efficient nature. Debatable on whether or not it's stronger against thresh than therapy (along w/ dystopia), but great against loam, tendrills combo (where therapy is 100x better in the tide matchup), and survival to name a few. Still gets hit by pithing needle in the match-ups it matters against, but very strong none the less.

That's my synopsis, let me know if I missed anything.

[AnwarA101]

I'm running a fourth Chain over the Wretched Anurid. (The deck can't support four Giants, I assume? I haven't tested it but I'm guessing you have.) I'll mark the Chain when I assemble the deck IRL to let me know how often I wish it was an Anurid, but there's a lot of times I don't get the fast ritual start and save my ass by being able to Burn away random small accelerants like Birds, Lackey, and so forth.

On a side note, I didn't really care for Jitte in the sideboard. It doesn't really fit the Ritual curve all that much. What's it in there to handle? Just Goblins? Surely there's something better.

I can't recommend playing only 15 threats. This deck doesn't have very many threats and it needs everyone that you may draw. Decreasing that even by 1 is not a good idea in my opinion. I know Anurid isn't great, but he's still a constant source of damage and if you are really suffering you might be able to sacrifice him to a Negator (it is a nifty trick). I'm not fond of the 4th Chain Lightning as its already not as good as Lightning Bolt and I don't really wish I had the 4th one.

I was skeptical about Jitte too since it really costs 4 mana to use, but I found at least against Goblins to be a very strong card. An active Jitte spells doom for many creature based decks. Its another way to counteract your opponent's Jitte or just to put your opponent in a tough position. I'm not completely sold on the card, but it seems strong. Dark Ritual makes Jitte a little more palatable as it makes its cost a little more manageable.

[Tacosnape]

The breakdown was pretty much a solid 8 spots in the board
(4 dystopia, 4 engineered plague...moved to plague after debating infest and fire covenant), and then 7 "other" slots.

Right now I think I'm testing 4 extirpate and 3 jitte in those slots, but we'll see just how powerful extirpate is in this deck. Cabal therapy might just be simply better, in which case I'd run 3 and the random 1 darkblast for the 8th removal spell (not counting jitte).

In the jitte spots, debatable inclusions:
- null rod: maybe in certain metagames it's powerful enough
- pithing needle: still up in the air, not very powerful usually but can be useful
- cursed scroll: colorless removal that acts as a late game threat, good against control like landstill but who cares about that, we have game against them anyway
- darkblast: running multiple copies with plague seems okay, still unsure on how good this is.
- meltdown: see null rod, good answer for artifacts/affinity but really very narrow when you think about it
- overload: artifact hate, but is it needed?
- masticore: somewhat fulfills the jitte roll, only jitte does it better
- fire covenant: do we really want to smash goblins that incredibly badly? Unnecessary with plagues I think.

In the cabal therapy slots:
- extirpate: still debatable whether or not this is all that good, definitely hoses a few archetypes, but therapy is simply amazing. Testing this currently.
- tormod's crypt: yard hate, of the most efficient nature. Debatable on whether or not it's stronger against thresh than therapy (along w/ dystopia), but great against loam, tendrills combo (where therapy is 100x better in the tide matchup), and survival to name a few. Still gets hit by pithing needle in the match-ups it matters against, but very strong none the less.

That's my synopsis, let me know if I missed anything.

Meh at Null Rod. Short of TES/Iggy I can't imagine ever wanting it over Meltdown, and I sort of meh at that. I like the idea of wrecking artifacts, but I wonder how often it would be worthwhile and, out of curiosity, how bad are matchups with mass artifacts to sweep in the first place? And very Meh at Overload. Scroll is a slow card and this is not a slow deck, so Meh at Scroll. Random burn topdecks or mass disruption usually suffice against control.

Fire Covenant is interesting. I don't like losing to Goblins, ever, and I'm very much okay with a tad of overkill.

I dislike Masticore. It -does- give me a creature to board in over Negator against Goblins, but meh at boarding out Negators. Besides, paying for Masticore's awesomeness is not easy to do against Goblins' mana disruption.

I currently run Darkblast and Needle at 2 each, but I'm not overly sold on either one.

Meh at Extirpate. I can't imagine where i'd be thrilled with it except against like, Loam Control. It's decent against IGGy, but so is Funeral Charm which can severely mess them up mid-combo, in addition to picking off stray Lackeys, and meh at Funeral Charm.

Crypt is, of course, the standby of graveyard removal. Hard to meh at it. Not sure if I need it that badly, but it's good.

My next question is what makes Therapy so good besides the fact that it's, you know, Therapy? The deck doesn't, as mentioned, have many threats to begin with, and most combo matches seem like they'd be pretty fair to begin with. Is it just that combo decks like TES and Iggy are so fast we have to boost our disruption as quickly as possible? And does Therapy come in for any other matchups?


I can't recommend playing only 15 threats. This deck doesn't have very many threats and it needs everyone that you may draw. Decreasing that even by 1 is not a good idea in my opinion. I know Anurid isn't great, but he's still a constant source of damage and if you are really suffering you might be able to sacrifice him to a Negator (it is a nifty trick). I'm not fond of the 4th Chain Lightning as its already not as good as Lightning Bolt and I don't really wish I had the 4th one.

I was skeptical about Jitte too since it really costs 4 mana to use, but I found at least against Goblins to be a very strong card. An active Jitte spells doom for many creature based decks. Its another way to counteract your opponent's Jitte or just to put your opponent in a tough position. I'm not completely sold on the card, but it seems strong. Dark Ritual makes Jitte a little more palatable as it makes its cost a little more manageable.

Well, I'm not going to argue that there's a better threat for slot 16 than the Anurid, because I've looked and don't see it. The best things I've come up with is Garza's Assassin, and two power is meh. I haven't really been threat short (Except in that game where I decked my opponent), but I'll give the Anurid a try.

I disagree with your Ritual/Jitte assessment though, and here's why. To Ritual out and equip a Jitte in the same turn, You'd need two land and a Ritual. This would mean you'd need a 1-drop in the deck. We don't run 1-drops because all of them are inherently bad. Therefore the best we can do is drop a Creature turn one via the Ritual, then Jitte turn two, and equip turn three. This is -one- turn faster than normal, and assumes you're going to spend turn two dropping your Jitte rather than throwing Sinkhole/Hymn/Burn at things. Now, Ideally, you could go Ritual/Ritual/Creature/Jitte and equip and swing on turn two, but not all of us get 1.556 Rituals per hand.:cool:

[raudo]

It would be so fascinating to play 1-2 kaervek's spite in this deck. What could be more suicidal.. Problem is of course that the card sucks and is dead in your hand until you can finish your opponent off or use some card like contagion. :rolleyes:

[Tacosnape]

(bunch of stuff I didn't read) contagion.

Here now. That's an idea. Why on earth don't we run Contagion? We don't have Dark Confidant muddling the 5-cost up and it doesn't slow us down on the draw from throwing Hymns and Sinkholes and the like. Plus I imagine it would be amazing with Negator.

[nitewolf9]

We have removal that doubles as reach in the form of burn, the whole reason the red splash was added in the first place. Contaigon is dead in certain matchups, and that generally is what this deck strays away from. In the board maybe, but what would it replace? Contaigon seems bad and is generally card parity or even card disadvantage, even if it is a cute combat trick.

[Tacosnape]

We have removal that doubles as reach in the form of burn, the whole reason the red splash was added in the first place. Contaigon is dead in certain matchups, and that generally is what this deck strays away from. In the board maybe, but what would it replace? Contaigon seems bad and is generally card parity or even card disadvantage, even if it is a cute combat trick.

The same matches you would board in the Darkblast I imagine. Goblins, Survival, whatnot.

[AnwarA101]

The same matches you would board in the Darkblast I imagine. Goblins, Survival, whatnot.

I mean you could swap out 1 Darkblast for Contagion, but I prefer the recurring removal that is Darkblast (I already used it to beat a Survival player in game 2 two weeks ago at GAGG). Darkblast has some nice synergy with Engineered Plague and answers Goblin Lackey without the card disadvantage.

Anyone notice the press we got in Machinus' latest article on StarCity? I think its cool.

[nitewolf9]

I think it's cool, and I also think people don't have the balls to play the deck. "I'm too scared to play with negator, I'm going to run juggernaut instead" etc., and "where's bob?" (answer: well, we all know where bob sleeps...).

But yeah, congratulations Anwar, even though I came up with the deck (as well as goblins and iggy pop).

[powergamer1003]

Also, guys don't forget (yes I will start posting again, mainly in this thread because its the only one I care about) Contagian looses card advantage v T1 lackey, which is a problem. I would rather keep the darkblast or plauges.

Also; why isit bob in the deck again? Isn't the deck strickly worse without him? My list runs no more negators and 4 bobs, its soo much better, it improves your late game matchups through the roof. I find extra burn and creatures faster, and allowes me a more safe win. It is also such a house vs goblins because it finds you your creatures as apposed to negator which just gets slaughtered to the blockers they put up.

[Bane of the Living]

I notice alot of discussion over Therapy. How often do you get to flash this back? Does the deck ever really want to sac a threat to remove a threat? What situations is this two for one justified?

Has anyone put any real playtesting into Extirpate? I played it in pox to take advantage of the numerous methods of disruption and I loved it. This deck seems to hate Swords alot since it has a light creature count. It seems handling all copies of swords would be a boon to the matchups that feature them. Its just as good, if not better than Crypt against Iggy, and it seems thats the case with Thresh as well. Thresh is already a good matchup, we dont really need to rfg their yard do we? The only card I dont want to see from them is Mongoose and all our guys can at least trade with him. He makes another glorious Exi target. Against goblins its another usefull card to bring in, rather than lets say Sinkhole. Keeping SGC or Leader's CIP's offline is detrimental to attrition, dealing with the first one then rfg'ing all of them should go along way. Targeting an Incinerator with Exi is another strong play since it gives your Negs so much more muscle.

Again, I dont mean to just pop into any thread playing black and clammer about Exi, but next to Pox, this deck has the strongest attrition package and could surely utilize it. The question I propose is would the card shore up some general weaknesses?

[Tacosnape]

Has anyone put any real playtesting into Extirpate? I played it in pox

Extirpate doesn't really solve the immediate, and Red Death is a deck that lives in the immediate. Extirpate's also an answer, where Red Death is a deck of questions. Not a philosophically sound strategy to me. If there's graveyard hate to be had, I'd rather see it be in the form of Tormod's Crypt or maybe distantly Withered Wretch.

Extirpate's a bad card in Pox anyway. Ebony Charm's better.

[Bane of the Living]

Extirpate doesn't really solve the immediate, and Red Death is a deck that lives in the immediate. Extirpate's also an answer, where Red Death is a deck of questions. Not a philosophically sound strategy to me. If there's graveyard hate to be had, I'd rather see it be in the form of Tormod's Crypt or maybe distantly Withered Wretch.

Extirpate's a bad card in Pox anyway. Ebony Charm's better.

SO thats a no to real playtesting with the card? If thats all you have is speculation thats just fine, but I was asking about first hand experience with the card in the deck.

[Tacosnape]

SO thats a no to real playtesting with the card? If thats all you have is speculation thats just fine, but I was asking about first hand experience with the card in the deck.

Don't be an asshole.

I've tested Extirpate. In Pox, in Red Death, and in Landstill, and only the latter of which do I keep it in because Landstill fears Life from the Loam. Have you tested Ebony Charm in Pox? I thought not. Hypocrite.

I have yet to see a spelled out example of what Extirpate does for Red Death that's any sort of major problem that can't be solved or ignored by other means. This pretty much goes for every deck packing Extirpate, actually. Something about the card makes people giddy and unable to back up their fervor for it with clear examples.

The thing about Extirpate is this: If the Gempalm, Mongoose, whatever else, is in the Graveyard? You killed the important one. The current one. It's not worth a card here to ensure they don't randomly topdeck another one.

[Bane of the Living]

Don't be an asshole.

I have yet to see a spelled out example of what Extirpate does for Red Death that's any sort of major problem that can't be solved or ignored by other means. This pretty much goes for every deck packing Extirpate, actually. Something about the card makes people giddy and unable to back up their fervor for it with clear examples.


Dude theres no need for the flames, I wasnt trying to be a dick or anything. The way you responded didnt sound like you had actually played with the card, forgive me but the way you answered did sound like speculation. You didnt give me very solid reasons why you didnt like Exi, you just said it doesnt fit the decks philosophy. Your posts are amoung my favorites to read because you add cohesive discussion to all regards. I dont disagree with what you said one bit. I dont play Red Death, I just frequent threads such as these to develop strategy against it. Explaining to me why the card just wont work in the deck is rational.



The thing about Extirpate is this: If the Gempalm, Mongoose, whatever else, is in the Graveyard? You killed the important one. The current one. It's not worth a card here to ensure they don't randomly topdeck another one.

I dont know what this talk about Ebony Charm is about but I specifically asked about Exi in Red Death. I wasnt trying to get into discussion about pox at all.

Concerning 'randomly topdecking another' I dont know if you noticed but Thresh is very good at continually digging through its deck for what it wants. Goblins also has Ringleader/Matron to get what they need. The randomly topdecking thing only applies to a few decks.

I would like to know what Anwar and other frequent Death players think about it. Black hasnt recieved such a strong card in sometime. I honestly think its a mistake to disregard it and not bother to playtest.

I understand the deck needs its explosive now is now, strategy and I dont think adding this card will hamper the strategy completely. Ive played many games against this deck where the initial onslaught was burdened and we reached late game. This deck has a bad late game, can anyone disagree? It seems that a card that fits the curve, cant be countered, and benifits the late game is worth more attention than its recieved thus far. The first mongoose is easy, its the second and third that throw this deck fits. Ect.

[Parcher]

From what I have seen, Anwar has yet to run any kind of graveyard hate.

While I doubt he has tested Extirpate yet, and there could be additional benefits in it's "Extraction" usage, if in all the games played he has yet to feel the need for a Tormod's or Leyline, I can't imagine an even narrower card finding a slot in the sideboard of this deck.

But the truth of the matter may just be that excluding Threshold, where Crypt would be superior, there are just very few decks that abuse the graveyard in the current Legacy meta. The amount of graveyard hate pre-Extirpate has sort of inured the format to it's potential use.

[Tacosnape]

This deck has a bad late game, can anyone disagree? It seems that a card that fits the curve, cant be countered, and benifits the late game is worth more attention than its recieved thus far. The first mongoose is easy, its the second and third that throw this deck fits. Ect.

Sorry I snapped at you, Bane. I shouldn't post in the morning with low blood sugar.

I have tested Extirpate in Red Death in all seriousness though, and I didn't like it. Dystopia takes care of Mongeese/Enforcers/Bears, and Rotting Giant trades nicely with Mongoose. Threshold can indeed be a tricky match, but I don't think Extirpate does a lot to solve this problem.

The late game isn't as bad as it seems. I seriously did deck someone with Red Death, fighting through Exalteds/Decrees/Monestaries. But more likely against a lot of decks is that you'll run out of steam and have to finish them off with Burn. This isn't hard to do.

Red Death's attitude, for me, is to just not worry about the late game. The early game's so broken you'll win a lot based on that alone.

[Bane of the Living]

The late game isn't as bad as it seems. I seriously did deck someone with Red Death, fighting through Exalteds/Decrees/Monestaries. But more likely against a lot of decks is that you'll run out of steam and have to finish them off with Burn. This isn't hard to do.


Dont worry about it. I read about that game I wish I could see the look on their face!

If the late game plan is to hopefully burn you out, has any higher end burn been considered/needed? Does Chalice@1 hurt the deck much?


@Parcher
I wasnt bringing up Exi so much as a yard weapon but moreso for its late game combatives. The yard beating it could give is just a teeny bonus.

[noobslayer]

This suggestion will likely be completely out there, but it seems quite a few pages back that there was some mulling as to whats the best answer to the GY and artifacts. To adress the former, has anyone tested maindecked Withered Wretches? He's still a cost efficient body with a very relevant ability to boot. I'd personally insert him in the Nantuko Shade slot. I'd also personally cut the Wretched Anurid for the fourth Chain Lightning.

[Machinus]

After some initial arguments, Anwar tried my suggestion of replacing the Therapies with Crypts in the board and he was pretty happy with the results. Anwar's decklist will be posted pretty soon, and you can just change those three to get it anyway.

However, we discussed another more major change. I have another slight alteration to the deck that I would like to recommend testing. I think this alteration has small advantages against the classic top tier, but I'm looking for some critical analysis:

Neo-Red Death

4 Negator
4 Hippie
3 Rotting Giant
3 Nantuko Shade
3 Withered Wretch
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Duress
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
4 Dark Ritual
4 Wasteland
3 Badlands
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
7 Swamp

SB:
1 Duress
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Engineered Plague
4 Dystopia


I'll look at some individual matchup dynamics based on this. Keep in mind the field fractions of these decks at recent tournaments.

Threshold: I think making all their guys 1/1 is better than making one of yours 5/4. Wretch is a bomb and runs over their guys right after he eats the graveyard. Big improvement in this matchup. I think the loss of Duress is acceptable, since the biggest problem is 4/4s and untargetable 3/3s. The strength and popularity of Thresh, and the difficulty of the matchup make this an important consideration.

Goblins: Cutting a Duress for a 2/2 is an improvement. I think the two toughness in the early game is going to prevent more losses to efficient Goblin draws with Lackey backed up by Fanatic and Incienrator. The strong point of Shade is that it can can force unfavorable blocking and take advantage of a stalling Goblins board. I don't know how often that board situation comes up but Shade seems best in the mid game when you have enough mana to use it, but they haven't ramped Vials yet. He doesn't die to Fanatic which is very important when you're tapping out, and can block 1/1s and survive. Post board, this is definitely a positive for the deck since it's one extra guy to put on a jitte, and it's harder to kill in response to equip.

IGG/TES: Obviously key here. Stops recursion of important combo pieces.

Survival: Turns off Anger, Squee, Genesis, Witness, etc.

Multicolored Aggro: This is probably negative, due to the burn complement and the need to force favorable blocking. An extra body for Jitte is strong, but it's unlikely they will have much graveyard dependence.

Affinity: This is probably negative since neither can block large flyers, but the Shade can force them on defense. Another guy for Jitte is good though.

Solidarity: Not an improvement, since you want to be dealing damage instead of weakening Think Twice and Flash of Insight. Sideboarding a Duress is a negative.


Positive:
Decks utilizing Intuition, Life from the Loam, Crucible of Worlds, Solitary Confindement, Psychatog, Auriok Salvagers, Reanimate, and Madness/Threshold/Flashback cards.

Negative:
Decks utilizing Wrath of God/Damnation, Pyroclasm, Pernicious Deed, Lightning Bolt.

[noobslayer]

Which matches has switching Therapies for Crypts been a help in? With the addition on Wretch to the main deck, it appears as though Therapy would be less necessary of an inclusion. Not that it's a large concern, but has there arisen any need for artifact hate in the board? Or is jitte our answer?

[Tacosnape]

Re: Withered Wretch.

I'm not a fan of there being any more double black in this deck than there already is. We've got Sinkhole, Hymn, Shade, and Specter all eating up the double black slots, not to mention Dystopia in board. While Dark Ritual helps here, it seems that if we keep going along this route, all you'll need to do in order to beat this deck is to keep them off double black.

Wretch would indeed be a bomb against Threshold, as any needles on it are needles not going towards Shade and Wasteland. But against the other decks, like Survival, I find all I really need to do is keep them off either Survival itself or their mana, as Survival generally needs both to function.

Wretch would be relatively weak in the mirror, with its only real purpose being to keep the other player off Rotting Giant usage. Keeping double black in the mirror can be incredibly tricky.

[Machinus]

Yes, I forgot to analyze the Red Death mirror.

...

As soon as one happens, it might become relevant to Legacy.

[Tao]

If you go for 2 power 2-drops, then when will you start playing Dark Confidant?

[noobslayer]

When it's tougness is not 1. Also, in a rough estimate, how much does this deck cost to put together? It's one deck I'm considering for the GP.

[Soto]

I live in Montreal and prices here are very different from what i've seen so i'll just name the expensive things:

Nantuko Shade (10$)
Hypnotic Specter (8$)
Badlands(25$)
Sinkhole(30$?)
Chain Lightning (12-15$)
Fetchlands(8-15$) maybe get 4 bloodstained instead of 4 polluted as they are much cheaper.
Wasteland (12$)

This is what i find them at but dont take my word for it.

[Tao]

When it's tougness is not 1

Nantuko Shade BB
2/1

Just kidding, but to Wretch: It is only slightly less vulnerable than Confidant and it only matters in the Goblin Matchup.

[Anarky87]

I submitted Red Death to play in the SCG tournament online, so we'll see how that turns out.

I don't know about Wretch MD, but I haven't tested it, so I can't really go one way or the other. As for SB Crypts over Therapy, again, I can't really say one way or the other. The GY hate in Crypt seems like a good addition to the SB as there are decks out there using the GY and we can't always hope to bank on Duress, Hymn, and Sink to save us. We need something that can be our plan B when everything doesn't go our way.

As for the price of the deck, I don't know, a lot of the stuff I already had before I put the deck together.

Badlands: $40 (For me at least)
Bloodstained Mires/Delta: (Not sure, bought a whole set of the fetches for $125)
Wastelands: $22

Shades: $32-$40
Negators: $24 (Maybe)
Specters: $8
Giants: $2.50
Anurid: $0.19

Duress: $8
Hymn: $2
Sinkhole: $50
Dark Ritual: $1.00
Lightning Bolt: $3.00
Chain Lightning: $20 (Got my set of Italians for $19, but I'm sure you can get them for cheaper.

So I don't know, add those up and that's what I roughly paid for the deck. Of course now I have Alpha/Beta Sinkholes, Foil Duresses, Negators, Giants, Anurids.

Edit: Round 1: Sean with G/b Survival, 1-2.

[Firebrothers]

@wretches
I have had wretches in my sb for the longest time and have been advocating there use for some time now, glad to see people catching on. I have been thinking about moving them to main deck recently as well. Origionally I dropped a badlands, shade and anurid for 3 therapy but now I think the extra body of the wretch is a better plan.

Hitting double black has rarely been a problem for me. If you do not hit double black durring any game you will not win. If you dont see 2 black sources in your opening hand you should not keep it. (Unless you are Anwar of course)

If we are running wretches main are 3 tormods crypt absolutly necesarry in the board? Cabal therapy could be boosted because of extra dudes to throw away and also jitte is helped somewhat as well.

waaayyy back @ extripate

Tested it for about a week and never really felt like it was really good in any match up. Sure it got rid of things that they could have drawn but again red death doesnt think about the future too much and extripate was only really good if you nabbed a card or two in their hand, which was not very often.

[Tacosnape]

Hitting double black has rarely been a problem for me. If you do not hit double black durring any game you will not win. If you dont see 2 black sources in your opening hand you should not keep it. (Unless you are Anwar of course)


Hitting Double Black and keeping Double Black are two separate things. Especially in the mirror where you have to face Hymns, Sinkholes, and Wastelands. There's a very good chance one or both of your black sources is going to get wiped off the board or ripped out of your hand.

And this isn't entirely true. In the one mirror match I played I won game two without ever hitting double black with two Rotting Giants, a Badlands, a Wasteland, and a lot of burn after two of my swamps got eaten. by an early Hymn/Sinkhole.


Yes, I forgot to analyze the Red Death mirror.

...

As soon as one happens, it might become relevant to Legacy.

Anyone who doesn't analyze their deck's mirror doesn't truly believe in its greatness.

[AnwarA101]

Nantuko Shade BB
2/1

Just kidding, but to Wretch: It is only slightly less vulnerable than Confidant and it only matters in the Goblin Matchup.

Shade is a poor example of a creature with 1 toughness because this is only true on turn 2 or when you have to tap out. Shade is rarely a 2/1 when it matters unlike Dark Confidant. Shade also rarely swings for 2 which makes him much different from Dark Confidant.

[Happy Gilmore]

Why does it have to be 3 wretch? Does it hurt you so much to use only two and keep the Duress? Wretch will never ever replace a duress in my mind unless the field is around 70% goblins and 30% graveyard based deck. With 2 Wretch and 3 crypt from the board you have access to 5 graveyard hate spells and 4 Dystopia against grow. I don't think then can come up for air in that situation. I can certainly see replacing the one of Anurid with a Wretch at the very least.

[Tacosnape]

Shade is a poor example of a creature with 1 toughness because this is only true on turn 2 or when you have to tap out. Shade is rarely a 2/1 when it matters unlike Dark Confidant. Shade also rarely swings for 2 which makes him much different from Dark Confidant.

Plus Shade has that Arcbound Ravager-esque quality of making a lot of good players trade their amazing early creature for Shade out of fear of not being able to deal with him later. Nantuko Bugman is a stellar piece of work.

[Firebrothers]

Hitting Double Black and keeping Double Black are two separate things. Especially in the mirror where you have to face Hymns, Sinkholes, and Wastelands. There's a very good chance one or both of your black sources is going to get wiped off the board or ripped out of your hand.

And this isn't entirely true. In the one mirror match I played I won game two without ever hitting double black with two Rotting Giants, a Badlands, a Wasteland, and a lot of burn after two of my swamps got eaten. by an early Hymn/Sinkhole.



Anyone who doesn't analyze their deck's mirror doesn't truly believe in its greatness.


Personally I believe this deck is great otherwise I wouldent play it. I do not worry as much as you about the mirror or about other wasteland packing decks.

First off how many of us are playing this deck at the GP? Like 6 possibly more. According to last years records (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgevent/gpphi05/player1)
that would be about .012 percent if about 495 people show up. Unless it turns out like GP dallas where over 750 unexpecdidly showed up.

[Machinus]

If you test three wretches and find out that two is optimal, I see no problem with that. Right now though, it is only a suggestion since no one has tested it.

[Tacosnape]

Personally I believe this deck is great otherwise I wouldent play it. I do not worry as much as you about the mirror or about other wasteland packing decks.

First off how many of us are playing this deck at the GP? Like 6 possibly more. According to last years records (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgevent/gpphi05/player1)
that would be about .012 percent if about 495 people show up. Unless it turns out like GP dallas where over 750 unexpecdidly showed up.

I think you underestimate how ridiculously fast a deck can pick up popularity, and Red Death to me is one of the top 5 decks in the format along with Goblins, Threshold, Solidarity, and Epic Storm. Threshold, if my memory serves me correctly, had a pretty sudden rise to the top over the span of only a few months. With this deck continuing to do well at tournaments and more people continuing to evolve the sideboard, I think it will continue to do well. I'd venture to say it's well on its way to replacing Deadguy Ale and B/W Confidant variants as "The Double Black Deck" with Hymn/Sinkhole. It's caused me to put my Vindicates/Scrublands on Ebay in favor of Badlands and Chain Lightnings. Granted, I don't think the mirror will be huge at GP Columbus, but Red Death lives on beyond GP Columbus, and I don't think it will become obsolete any time soon. A good showing at the GP will catapult this deck into ridiculous popularity. Therefore I choose to be ready to deal with the mirror. I've even thought about mirror matches on my more experimental decks, like Twilight and Dragon Stompy.


If you test three wretches and find out that two is optimal, I see no problem with that. Right now though, it is only a suggestion since no one has tested it.

I agree. Variance always leads to new advances in deck tech. I say try the two Wretches. I can't say anything, because I've stubbornly got Pithing Needle in my Red Death board (I find it wins me a lot of control matchups) and can't bring myself to remove it.

Also, has anyone tried Funeral Charm over Cabal Therapy against combo? In addition to the obvious note that it can pick off a Lackey and make a Negator a 7/4 Swampwalker (Moan!), Funeral Charm has this neat little ability to disrupt Ill-Gotten Gains against both Iggy Pop and TES. This works as follows:

1. Opponent generates 6 mana and plays Ill-Gotten Gains with 2 or less floating. Note that the following won't work against Cabal/Cabal/Infernal if your opponent has 4 floating at this point and is smart. Just make sure they can't Infernal, then drop Rituals in response.
2. Opponent plays IGG and gets 2 Accelerants and Infernal Tutor.
3A. Opponent leads with Lion's Eye Diamond. You do nothing, then Funeral Charm in response to their next spell regardless. This will only work if they don't have 4 mana to go Infernal/Cabal without passing priority.
3B. Opponent leads with Cabal Ritual. You Funeral Charm in response, as you can't allow them 5 mana to go Infernal/Cabal. They have to discard one or the other, presumably the other accelerant. Then they're too mana short to continue the combo.

It only gets sillier if you're holding 2 Funeral Charms.

Funeral Charm is of course weak against Solidarity (tends to turn Flash of Insight on. Oops.) But Solidarity seems like an easier match anyway, as Sinkhole's far stronger against Solidarity than against fast IGG/Tendrils decks.

Thoughts?

[laststepdown]

Extirpate fills the same role as killing IGGY outright, but can't kill a Lackey.

Best turn 1 against IGGY imho-swamp, rit, duress, take LED/IGG, Extripate it, 1 point of burn.

However, I'm still not sold on replacing my 4 Therapies with 4 Extirpates.

[Tacosnape]

Extirpate fills the same role as killing IGGY outright, but can't kill a Lackey.

Hence why I suggested Funeral Charm.

[laststepdown]

But I'd rather have Therapy over Charm-we already bring in 7 cards against goblins(3 Jitte 4 Plague/Covenant, I also bring in 1 Darkblast).

[Happy Gilmore]

This deck's manabase has shit on me plenty. But I don't care, I am going to play it anyway.

Damn you Anwar...damn you. I've sold my soul, happy now?

[Anarky87]

This deck's manabase has shit on me plenty. But I don't care, I am going to play it anyway.

Damn you Anwar...damn you. I've sold my soul, happy now?

Yeah, I've had the manabase do that to me quite a few times in testing and tournament play. It's like I mull a single B hand into a no land hand into a one B one Wasteland hand before I just say fuck it and play the game. Almost like the round becomes a reality show: "Let's make it more interesting for our audience. We're gonna start the Red Death player off with a hand containing only one black source, a Lightning Bolt, a Nantuko Shade, a Hymn, and a Wasteland. Can he make it out of this death (No pun intended) trap?! Stay tuned to find out!!"

[Anarky87]

I'm going to a tournament tomorrow, and I'll try to pack 3 Crypts in the board over Therapy and let everyone know how it went.

Edit: I ended up going 0-2 drop in the SCG online tournament. Lost round 1 to a G/b Survival Deck, and then lost round 2 to some deck that was like 43Lands except it had Intuition, Smokestack, Eternal Witness, etc. I just felt really out matched, and I had horrific hands in both games. Game 1 was a double mulligan into a 1 land, Ritual, Negator, to which he shut down with Glacial Chasm and LftL. Game 2 I mulliganed again and just lost after my turn Specter was StP'd and applied zero pressure on him, so he locked me down.

[Radley]

I'm going to a tournament tomorrow, and I'll try to pack 3 Crypts in the board over Therapy and let everyone know how it went.

Edit: I ended up going 0-2 drop in the SCG online tournament. Lost round 1 to a G/b Survival Deck, and then lost round 2 to some deck that was like 43Lands except it had Intuition, Smokestack, Eternal Witness, etc. I just felt really out matched, and I had horrific hands in both games. Game 1 was a double mulligan into a 1 land, Ritual, Negator, to which he shut down with Glacial Chasm and LftL. Game 2 I mulliganed again and just lost after my turn Specter was StP'd and applied zero pressure on him, so he locked me down.

lol. That was cheap. Glacial chasm and lftl? :laugh:

[Di]

lol. That was cheap. Glacial chasm and lftl? :laugh:

Eternal Garden (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3668&page=6)

[jamest]

For those trying to find a a replacement for Anurid, these have been the best candidates in my testing:
Withered Wretch (I would have these in the sideboard at least)
Gobhobbler Rats
Order of the Ebon Hand / Knight of Stromgald (pro-white is quite relevent)
Dark Confidant (I know, I know, but it's a 1-of)

[AnwarA101]

This deck's manabase has shit on me plenty. But I don't care, I am going to play it anyway.

Damn you Anwar...damn you. I've sold my soul, happy now?

I've seen some problems in testing and I'm not sure exactly how to address the manabase issues. Do we want to add the 18th black source ? the 19th black source? What should we cut? I'm really not sure. Any suggestions? In my tournament experience I've had occasional issues, but its never been crushing. Is the manabase that bad?

[noobslayer]

I can't imagine it being horrible when compared to the far more vulnerable mana base of Gro builds. We only need BBR to function, they need UUGW.

[C.P.]

I've seen some problems in testing and I'm not sure exactly how to address the manabase issues. Do we want to add the 18th black source ? the 19th black source? What should we cut? I'm really not sure. Any suggestions? In my tournament experience I've had occasional issues, but its never been crushing. Is the manabase that bad?

I played Red Death and B/W Sui that ripped mana base off your deck, and the following is my conclusion:

1. Red Death usually does not care about LD. It is fast enough to negate any concerns on the mana base, and yes, not having another black fucked me time to time, but not enough to warrant the another land. However, running 3 Red source was a bit shaky for me, as I play in a meta that runs a lot of LD.

2. I have a Deck that has a very similar mana base as Red Death. It is a little bit slower, and sitting on a fetch is usually not an option, so I play 4 Scrubland. The deck Runs both negator and scroll, thus needing a very constant mana flow. 21 Land with 4 Waste is still pretty good for me. However, Extirpate is being very annoying to me, so I'm considering the inclusion of a singleton shockland.

SO I don't think there is a mana problem in the deck at all. You might want a single shockland just because you hate extirpate, though.

[Anarky87]

I've never had a problem achieving red, because I just run 4 Badlands and leave it at that. The last two tournaments I played Death in I had to mulligan multiple times per game just to hit BB because the deck doesn't cut it off of 1B. It can kinda get its foot in the door with that, but never really take off.

[Hanni]

I've been keeping up with this thread a little bit and I just wanted to post the list I've been liking currently. I posted something similar to this before and it was dismissed, although I'd like to just show it to you guys again just for the hell of it:

B/r Sui

Lands (21)
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
6 Swamp
3 Badlands
4 Wasteland

Creatures (12)
2 Withered Wretch
3 Rotting Giant
3 Nantuko Shade
4 Phyrexian Negator

Spells (27)
4 Sarcomancy
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning

I originally ran 3 Carnophages as well but decided to swap them out for the 21st land and 2 Withered Wretch.

Basically, I just didn't like Hypnotic Specter in here. 3cc for a 2/2 flyer never seemed worthwhile to me even with the random discard. I like how the manacurve works with 4 Sarcomancy maindeck and I also enjoy the synergy between Sarcomancy and Negator... 1cc for a 2/2 is nice, 2 permanents for 1cc is even nicer for supporting Negator. It gives additional answers to a first turn Lackey and does so with the main color and it puts additional early pressure against just about everything in the format. It also reduces some of the dependancy on BB (in combination with Rotting Giant and Negator), so the deck gets a few extra outs of it gets screwed out of BB somehow. I've been enjoying the list, although I'm almost positive it was pointless for me to present the list to you guys.

I run pretty much the same SB options... Dystopia, Plague, Jitte, etc.

I was also considering dropping a Swamp for a lone one-of on Jitte or Cursed Scroll MD but I'm not so sure about that.

[URABAHN]

I've been keeping up with this thread a little bit and I just wanted to post the list I've been liking currently. I posted something similar to this before and it was dismissed, although I'd like to just show it to you guys again just for the hell of it:

B/r Sui

Lands (21)
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
6 Swamp
3 Badlands
4 Wasteland

Creatures (12)
2 Withered Wretch
3 Rotting Giant
3 Nantuko Shade
4 Phyrexian Negator

Spells (27)
4 Sarcomancy
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning

I originally ran 3 Carnophages as well but decided to swap them out for the 21st land and 2 Withered Wretch.

Basically, I just didn't like Hypnotic Specter in here. 3cc for a 2/2 flyer never seemed worthwhile to me even with the random discard. I like how the manacurve works with 4 Sarcomancy maindeck and I also enjoy the synergy between Sarcomancy and Negator... 1cc for a 2/2 is nice, 2 permanents for 1cc is even nicer for supporting Negator. It gives additional answers to a first turn Lackey and does so with the main color and it puts additional early pressure against just about everything in the format. It also reduces some of the dependancy on BB (in combination with Rotting Giant and Negator), so the deck gets a few extra outs of it gets screwed out of BB somehow. I've been enjoying the list, although I'm almost positive it was pointless for me to present the list to you guys.

I run pretty much the same SB options... Dystopia, Plague, Jitte, etc.

I was also considering dropping a Swamp for a lone one-of on Jitte or Cursed Scroll MD but I'm not so sure about that.

This decklist was very much inferior to the standard build of Red Death and the New Year hasn't changed any of that. If the New Year has told us anything about Red Death it's that Hypnotic Specter is an excellent choice in the deck. Sarcomany is awful and much more of a liability than you think. SpatulaoftheAges ran Sarcomany in ElginZoo at the Running GAGG and cited that card as a reason for losing more than one game.

Hanni, you mention Red Death having a dependency on BB. I'm not sure why that's even an issue considering the deck runs 7 Black Fetchlands, 3 Badlands, 7 Swamp, 4 Dark Ritual. If you're having so much trouble getting to two sources of black, why in the world would you want to cut a Swamp for Jitte or Cursed Scroll?

[Citrus-God]

I've been keeping up with this thread a little bit and I just wanted to post the list I've been liking currently. I posted something similar to this before and it was dismissed, although I'd like to just show it to you guys again just for the hell of it:

B/r Sui

Lands (21)
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
6 Swamp
3 Badlands
4 Wasteland

Creatures (12)
2 Withered Wretch
3 Rotting Giant
3 Nantuko Shade
4 Phyrexian Negator

Spells (27)
4 Sarcomancy
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning



Why would you sacrifice high quality creatures for sub-par 2/2 1 drops and a couple of Withered Wretches? This deck wins because of the quality of their creatures as well as the fast clock. The fact you cut Shades is also a mistake. I'm glad you have Negator as a 4-of, but you have to understand the philosophy of this deck; Sarcomancy isnt going to cut it and make Negator better. Negator is still the same; it kills your perms, but in return you get a low cc 5/5 trampling beat stick.

[Nihil Credo]

However, Extirpate is being very annoying to me, so I'm considering the inclusion of a singleton shockland.
Are there really people doing the play Wasteland -> Extirpate (nonbasic land)? Against a two-color aggro deck, of all goddamn things? I'd always thought that was just a hype legend, which, as everyone knows, is 20% less true than an urban legend.

[Tacosnape]

Are there really people doing the play Wasteland -> Extirpate (nonbasic land)? Against a two-color aggro deck, of all goddamn things? I'd always thought that was just a hype legend, which, as everyone knows, is 20% less true than an urban legend.

Yes. There are. All of my two-color aggro decks run a single shockland to cope with this very play, including Vial Goblins and Twilight.

Not that this is a fantastic play by any means whatsoever. It's just that hordes and hordes of average players wet themselves when they read Extirpate. And you still have to face those hordes.

As far as manabase problems go, has anyone considered just dropping a Wasteland for a Black mana producer?

[Hanni]

The decklist I posted is just the build I run for B/r Sui when I play it. It may be inferior, I haven't thoroughly tested both the standard and my list through tons of gauntlets to figure that out. I was just trying to get a little discussion started even though I was 99.99% positive that the discussion would end up being exactly what it got... a few posts saying that it sucked.

Anyway, to address some things, B/r Sui is very different from Zoo. B/r Sui has 0 1cc creatures and it utilizes far more disruption. In that sense, it's hard to compare the effectiveness of Sarcomancy in B/r Sui based on the findings of it in Zoo.

Hypnotic Specter is a great card but I didn't like itmuch in B/r Sui. This doesn't mean that I'm disagreeing with it being great in the deck; I'm just flexing my opinion on it. I'll explain why I never liked playing with it in B/r Sui in a moment.

I'm also not saying that the deck has problems getting BB... I was just pointing out that reducing some of the dependancy on BB isn't a bad idea. Additionally, I find achieving 1BB oftentimes difficult, especially when you're using Wastelands to blow up the opponent's lands.

Okay... back to Hypnotic Specter. The way I look at it is, it's a 3cc 2/2. Flying is great for evasion, random discard is great for control, and it's a spectacular card all around. However, it's a bitch on the manacurve. Without a turn 1 Ritual into Hyppie, it comes out extremely slow. You want to apply disruption early on in most cases and you cannot cast Hyppie during this time. It's heavy on the mana curve, especially with 4 Negator's already. If you're popping Wastelands, getting to 1BB can take a while. When it does finally see play, you get a 2/2 flyer. With the discard the deck already has, by this point in time discard may be useless... it may be effective still against some things, but it seems a little less spectacular. The ability to hit with 2 evasively is nice to keep the clock going, but it seems subpar in an aggressive strategy. It seems like it would be hard resolving past things like Daze and it also dies pretty easily to removal since it's a 2/2 (I know Sarcomancy is a 2/2, I'll get to that). It just seemed to slow for what it does since I try to play very aggressively with B/r Sui.

With Sarcomancy, you gain a 1cc creature drop. It helps the mana curve a ton. It improves your Goblins matchup by answering a 1st turn Lackey and by pushing through early aggro damage. It can be dropped into play while you're applying the disruption package. Not only does it fit the manacurve well but it also goes along much better with the tempo theme and aggressiveness of the deck. Beyond that, it's B for a 2/2 and 2 permanents that you can pitch away to Negator later on... this may not seem necessary, but it's nice to have excess permanents to pitch to Negator. In this way, you may get even more points of damage through by getting an extra swing with Negator.

Anyway, I've found it to greatly help my early game. Hyppie off of Ritual is a strong early game play but without Ritual, Hyppie seems more geared towards the mid-late. I try to focus on overpowering the early game, where this deck is at it's strongest. I'd rather run Dark Confidant if I was worried about my late game to be honest, since it can grab burn spells to go to the dome later on.

I'm sure absolutely no one agrees with me on this but whatever, I just wanted to voice my opinion. I've been liking the build I posted. It may be flawed logic and completely inferior to the standard but it never hurts to try new avenues and innovations. Please don't think less of me for that. :tongue:

Oh, and to address why I added Wretch: Aside from being a Zombie to fund Sarcomancy, it's a great MD answer to things like Loam or Threshold. It may not live long, but if it does, it can deal with Threshold if time permits. BB for a 2/2 is pretty bad but I think the deck has a sufficient fatty package with 3 Shades, 3 Giants, and 4 Negators. It's something experimental I decided to tinker with.

[URABAHN]

Hanni, I appreciate you wanting to add to the discussion, but what you're actually doing is resurrecting old arguments about the unconventional choices you've made for your version of the deck.

In August and September 2006, you suggested playing with Carnophage and Sarcomancy. This matter was discussed and debated with most everyone advocating their exclusion in the deck.

In August and September 2006, you suggested removing Hypnotic Specter for Dark Confidant. This matter was discussed and debated with most everyone agreeing that Hypnotic Specter is strong and Dark Confidant did not belong in Red Death. You would later agree with the part about Dark Confidant.

During this time, it was revealed to us that you hadn't played much with either build of Red Death.


With all that said, keep in mind that this is all my biased opinion... I have no tournament records to prove or disprove anything I've said. This is just random food for thought.


I don't think this decklist is any better or worse than traditional B/r Sui but it seems like it could do well.


I thought it was close enough to B/r Sui that I would just post it here. I haven't done much testing either so some of my card choices probably aren't optimal. I just came up with the idea that turning it into a Stompy-style deck could be beneficial, since the basic premise of B/r Sui was fast-based aggro with disruption. I'm still packing disruption, I only dropped the Sinkholes and Hypnotic Specters, which I replaced with a more beatdown oriented strategy. I'm not implying that this is list is better, I was just tossing the idea out to see what Anwar thought.

After nearly 90 days of speculation and theory, you tested the deck a bit and came to agree with the removal of Dark Confidant (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=95615&postcount=152). Yet you still weren't sold on Phyrexian Negator or Hypnotic Specter.

Here we get a little bit of insight into your testing, a 2-0 win vs. Goblins to convince everyone that running Sarcomany and Carnophage is optimal (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=95723&postcount=165).


The decklist I posted is just the build I run for B/r Sui when I play it. It may be inferior, I haven't thoroughly tested both the standard and my list through tons of gauntlets to figure that out. I was just trying to get a little discussion started even though I was 99.99% positive that the discussion would end up being exactly what it got... a few posts saying that it sucked.

The list you propose is not optimal. It wasn't optimal in August, it wasn't optimal by the end of 2006 when the accepted build made strong showings in sanctioned tournaments (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/deckshow.php?t%5BT3%5D=leg&deck_name%5B%5D=&event_type=&feedin=&start_date=2005-11-13&end_date=2007-03-18&city=&state=&country=&start=&finish=&exp=&p_first=&p_last=&simple_card_name%5B1%5D=rotting+giant&simple_card_name%5B2%5D=&simple_card_name%5B3%5D=&simple_card_name%5B4%5D=&simple_card_name%5B5%5D=&w_perc=0&g_perc=0&r_perc=0&b_perc=0&u_perc=0&a_perc=0&comparison%5B1%5D=%3E%3D&card_qty%5B1%5D=1&card_name%5B1%5D=&comparison%5B2%5D=%3E%3D&card_qty%5B2%5D=1&card_name%5B2%5D=&comparison%5B3%5D=%3E%3D&card_qty%5B3%5D=1&card_name%5B3%5D=&comparison%5B4%5D=%3E%3D&card_qty%5B4%5D=1&card_name%5B4%5D=&comparison%5B5%5D=%3E%3D&card_qty%5B5%5D=1&card_name%5B5%5D=&sb_comparison%5B1%5D=%3E%3D&sb_card_qty%5B1%5D=1&sb_card_name%5B1%5D=&sb_comparison%5B2%5D=%3E%3D&sb_card_qty%5B2%5D=1&sb_card_name%5B2%5D=&card_not%5B1%5D=&card_not%5B2%5D=&card_not%5B3%5D=&card_not%5B4%5D=&card_not%5B5%5D=&order_1=finish&order_2=&limit=25&action=Show+Decks), and in the New Year when the accepted build made strong showings in even more sanctioned events (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5141).

If something happened in Legacy in the last 7 months that makes your suggested build better for today's metagame, that would be worth discussing. Until then, I think you can further the discussion on Red Death by talking about new things.

[C.P.]

With Sarcomancy, you gain a 1cc creature drop. It helps the mana curve a ton. It improves your Goblins matchup by answering a 1st turn Lackey and by pushing through early aggro damage. It can be dropped into play while you're applying the disruption package. Not only does it fit the manacurve well but it also goes along much better with the tempo theme and aggressiveness of the deck. Beyond that, it's B for a 2/2 and 2 permanents that you can pitch away to Negator later on... this may not seem necessary, but it's nice to have excess permanents to pitch to Negator. In this way, you may get even more points of damage through by getting an extra swing with Negator.



I'm a big fan of 1cc Zombies, probably more than you are. I have a long love affair with them.

Still, the zombies just don't have places in the mordern meta anymore. Sure, they fit nicely in any mana curve. They are awesome with Dark Rituals. But they still suck in legacy. Do you know when they shine most? The matchups that should be autowins. Solidarity and its combo friends. When do they shine least? your harder matchups. Control, goblins and other red aggros. The exact reason why classic Suicide became unviable. they die to just about anything, and they do not win games by themselves. Sarcomancy also haunts your longer game. When those tokens are gone and game stabilizes, you are on losing side because of the constant life loss.

Red Death's ceatures are good threat by themselves. Negator and Shade Wins fast by itself. While Giant and Specter is slower, they are capable of sealing the game with little help. Carnophage and sarcomancy clearly cannot make the cut. Traditionally, the decks that ran 1cc zombies ran at least 20 creatures, not 16. They need to be in horde to be strong.

You run 16 creatures and 6 of them doesn't even trade with avenger/Goose/Friends. I really wonder what deck you are trying to build.

[nitewolf9]

Anything with power 2 or less is a no-go in this deck. It is very finely balanced and I think the main deck is pretty optimized, save for the 1 of wretched anurid slot. What else could go there? What creature would we want in what matchup? Somthing that is better against goblins, combo, gro? Wretch would be better against gro possibly, and less of a liability against goblins, but is he worth it as a one of? What about phyrexian ironfoot? I think that would be an interesting inclusion in that spot...blocks mongoose and lives, can have pseudo- vigilance, not really burnable. What do you guys think? Anurid is more efficient but is definitly a liability in the goblins matchup. I could be splitting hairs over this slot, and it could be preference, but what about it?

Just have to change the swamps to snow covered ones (ooooh).

The obvious problem would be the mana investment against combo, when you would need to keep disrupting them.

[Tacosnape]

Anything with power 2 or less is a no-go in this deck. It is very finely balanced and I think the main deck is pretty optimized, save for the 1 of wretched anurid slot. What else could go there? What creature would we want in what matchup? Somthing that is better against goblins, combo, gro?

I think it's entirely possible I solved this quandary when I began playtesting a Rakdos Guildmage in the deck in the Anurid's slot. Yeah, yeah, I know what I said about Double Black. Screw what I said before. Rakdos Guildmage is awesome.

Rakdos Guildmage doesn't require red to play which makes it awesome, as it plays off a Ritual, and all creatures in this deck should be able to do this. But Rakkie can utilize Red in its abilities. It's not a -true- 2 for 2/2, because with 4 mana, it's capable of swinging for 4 with an additional 2/1. It can also throw out this 2/1 for blocking, flashing back Cabal Therapy, or annoying the daylights out of people who are under the mistaken impression that Diabolic Edict is the second best creature removal spell in Legacy.

Additionally, with four mana, it turns those Dark Rituals and Hymns you draw when they're unnecessary into miniature targeted infests, allowing you to pick off everything from a late Piledriver to a Meddling Mage to a Dark Confidant to what have you.

With either ability it can take down an attacking 4/4 via block, and with the black one it can take down a blocking 4/4 via attack, and 4/4 is arguably the premier threat size in the format (Werebear, Myr Enforcer, Jotun Grunt, etc.) Not to mention, 4/4's are what this deck hates to see most, as that's just out of Bolt/Chain range.

It fails to pick off the ever annoying Silver Knight, but nothing's perfect.

[kicks_422]

Isn't running Rotting Giant an answer for Mongeese? Is it worth dropping Giants for Rakdos GM's?

I'm sorry if this has been discussed, but what about Magma Jet, over Chain Lightning? Is the 1cc 3 damage more important than a 2cc 2 damage with scry? It would ideally help to keep the pressure coming by manipulating your library to avoid unneeded cards...

[Tao]

I think it's entirely possible I solved this quandary when I began playtesting a Rakdos Guildmage in the deck in the Anurid's slot. Yeah, yeah, I know what I said about Double Black. Screw what I said before. Rakdos Guildmage is awesome.

I have to bring it up again: RAKDOS GUILDMAGE OVER DARK CONFIDANT?

It will ONLY matter in the Goblin matchup and only against Mogg Fanatic and Incinerator on Turn 2.

In every other matchup Dark Confidant outclasses the Guildmage a bazillion times.

[Tacosnape]

I have to bring it up again: RAKDOS GUILDMAGE OVER DARK CONFIDANT?

It will ONLY matter in the Goblin matchup and only against Mogg Fanatic and Incinerator on Turn 2.

In every other matchup Dark Confidant outclasses the Guildmage a bazillion times.

Yes. Rakdos Guildmage over Dark Confidant.

You're wrong about where it would matter. First off, in the Goblin matchup, you may not have it on the board turn 2. You may topdeck it midgame when you need a solid threat. Midgame against goblins, Rakdos Guildmage is still evenmoreso the stronger pull. Outside of Goblins, Confidant dies to any 1/1, Darkblast, Engineered Plague, a single Jitte counter, and so forth.

In -some- matchups Confidant would outclass the guildmage. I'd take him against Solidarity, for instance. I'd rather have the Rakdos Guildmage against Goblins, Threshold, 4C Landstill and/or Duck Hunt, the Mirror, and so forth.

[Nihil Credo]

I have to bring it up again: RAKDOS GUILDMAGE OVER DARK CONFIDANT?
They are completely different cards which perform completely different roles. I'm not saying Rakdos Guildmage is the bee's knees, I'm saying that "Bob is better" is wrong and, in fact, not an argument at all.

Look at it like this: it is common to run 2 Wretches, but hey, isn't the best creature ever printed* better than a random bear with an often-dead ability?



*Yes, I believe Dark Confidant should deserve that title by now.

[Firebrothers]

*Yes, I believe Dark Confidant should deserve that title by now.

Bold words sir.

Anyway, the guildmage is a heavy investment. At the point where we could be paying 4 mana to do anything the game should already be put away or we sould be looking for that last bolt to finish them.

As for phyrexian ironfoot why not just run phyrexian war beast because the 'does not untap' effect seems a little costly in this deck where you want to be doing something every turn.

[Tacosnape]

*Yes, I believe Dark Confidant should deserve that title by now.

Calling Dark Confidant the best creature ever printed is very very debatable. Dark Confidant barely cracks my top ten. I would argue that honor belongs to Meddling Mage, but whether or not you agree with that, calling Confidant Numero Uno is just...ehh. I'd go so far as to put it behind Akroma, Angel of Wrath, Wild Mongrel, Mishra's Factory if it can be counted as a creature, and even Darksteel Colossus for its impact on Vintage.

In any case, I don't think Confidant is an automatic for the Wretched Anurid's slot. I'm quite content with it being Rakdos Guildmage for now, and I'm trying Wretches in the board but am not convinced about them just yet. I'm also not entirely convinced the slot shouldn't be Wretched Anurid itself.


Anyway, the guildmage is a heavy investment. At the point where we could be paying 4 mana to do anything the game should already be put away or we sould be looking for that last bolt to finish them.

As for phyrexian ironfoot why not just run phyrexian war beast because the 'does not untap' effect seems a little costly in this deck where you want to be doing something every turn.

The Guildmage isn't that heavy of an investment considering right now I'm running only 1. If you ran 3-4, for instance, then it would be a heavy investment, as you're relying on that ability to win you games. Running 1 (And possibly even 2) merely enables the ability to be there when you need it.

The game is not always put away by the time the deck has four mana. Far from it. A lot of Red Death's games have to be won after the initial onslaught is survived (IE, your Rit-Negator meets Swords, and they survive Sinkholes and Hymns.) Burn helps tremendously here, and so will Rakdos Guildmage. It turns topdecked lands beyond 4 into creature pingers, and at four lands gains capacity to swing for four. Considering that something as awful as Masticore has been suggested, I don't think it's necessarily ridiculous to have an out for the deck to work with should it find itself a little mana heavy in the midgame.

As for creatures with "Phyrexian" in their name, "Phyrexian" is Dominarian for "Unplayable."

[Tao]

Look at it like this: it is common to run 2 Wretches, but hey, isn't the best creature ever printed* better than a random bear with an often-dead ability?
*Yes, I believe Dark Confidant should deserve that title by now.

I also wouldn't run Wretch, but I could understand if someone plays Wretch in a certain Metagame with many Loam, Thresh, Survival and / or Reanimator decks. Against some decks he is great. But that's not true for Rakdos Guildmage.


Yes. Rakdos Guildmage over Dark Confidant.
..
Outside of Goblins, Confidant dies to any 1/1, Darkblast, Engineered Plague, a single Jitte counter, and so forth.

There are no 1/1 creatures in the format except mother of runes. Darkblast and Plague are Sideboard cards and bad sideboard cards against the rest of your deck so you don't have to worry about them.


Threshold, 4C Landstill and/or Duck Hunt, the Mirror, and so forth.

Do you have any idea what the term "Tempo" means? It seems that you don't. I help you:

Untapping and

- paying FOUR Mana (that's more than any other card in your deck) to generate a card is worse than

- untapping and paying ZERO mana to draw that card in your upkeep.

Against all these decks untapping with a ritualed Confidant after turn 1 will virtually end the game in your favor. Until you get to 4 lands in play Guildmage is nothing but a vanilla Grizzly Bear. Untapping with Guildmage is only good in the lategame and even then he cannot create more card advantage than Bob.

[Nihil Credo]

There are no 1/1 creatures in the format except mother of runes.

:eek:

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

[Hanni]

If you are even going to begin considering Guildmage, why not just MD Jitte instead?

[Ninj4]

As for creatures with "Phyrexian" in their name, "Phyrexian" is Dominarian for "Unplayable."

Unplayable Negator?

[Tacosnape]

Unplayable Negator?

I always forget he has Phyrexian in his name. I always think of him as Demigod Negator.



There are no 1/1 creatures in the format except mother of runes. Darkblast and Plague are Sideboard cards and bad sideboard cards against the rest of your deck so you don't have to worry about them.

Do you have any idea what the term "Tempo" means? It seems that you don't. I help you:

Untapping and

- paying FOUR Mana (that's more than any other card in your deck) to generate a card is worse than

- untapping and paying ZERO mana to draw that card in your upkeep.

Against all these decks untapping with a ritualed Confidant after turn 1 will virtually end the game in your favor. Until you get to 4 lands in play Guildmage is nothing but a vanilla Grizzly Bear. Untapping with Guildmage is only good in the lategame and even then he cannot create more card advantage than Bob.

Oh lordy, Ignorance once again rears its ugly head. You have already illustrated you have as much grasp of tempo as I have of Kira Knightley's breasts at this very moment. Which is to say, none whatsoever.

Point 1: Goblin Lackey, Mogg Fanatic, Goblin Matron. I think they're all 1/1. The middle of which tends to erase Dark Confidant on the spot.

Point 2: Don't you dare question my capacity to understand fundamental Magic concepts, especially Tempo, when you can't make a post illustrating any sort of competent points on the subject and have to resort to attacks. I've never placed worse than 3rd in a Legacy tournament in my life and hold one of the top 100 Eternal Ratings in the US. I don't place in large tournaments because I can rarely afford to go to them.

Point 3: 4C Landstill and Duck Hunt matchups have nothing whatsoever to do with Tempo in regards to this choice. It has to do with the fact that both run Diabolic Edict and both run Engineered Plague, one of which maindecks Plague and the other boards it. Duck Hunt also runs The Abyss.

Rakdos Guildmage can dodge Diabolic Edict, can dodge The Abyss, and lives through Engineered Plague. He also tends to eat Mishra's Factory with the -2/-2 ability in response to a pump unless a second Factory is on the board.

Dark Confidant dies to Diabolic Edict, dies to The Abyss, gets shut out from being played by Engineered Plague, and can't swing through a Mishra's Factory to save his life.

Point 4: Dark Confidant doesn't create Tempo. It creates card advantage. The cards it peels can sometimes create Tempo, but so can not having to sacrifice lands to the Negator because your Rakdos Guildmage was able to remove the guy who might block him.

[Zilla]

Point 4: Dark Confidant doesn't create Tempo. It creates card advantage. The cards it peels can sometimes create Tempo, but so can not having to sacrifice lands to the Negator because your Rakdos Guildmage was able to remove the guy who might block him.
I agree with all your other points, but this one ignores the point to which you're responding. Guildmage's "card advantage" costs tempo because it requires a hefty mana investment. Confidant's draw costs no tempo because it requires no such investment. It doesn't necessarily gain you tempo, but it doesn't lose you any either.

[Tao]

Oh lordy, Ignorance once again rears its ugly head. You have already illustrated you have as much grasp of tempo as I have of Kira Knightley's breasts at this very moment. Which is to say, none whatsoever.

You seem to have a grasp of something completely different right now.

You better concentrate and get that pirate bride out of your head because you can learn a lot from my post.



Point 1: Goblin Lackey, Mogg Fanatic, Goblin Matron. I think they're all 1/1. The middle of which tends to erase Dark Confidant on the spot.

I always said that Guildmage is better against Goblins. You always said that Guildmage is better against Goblins. Most probably Grizzly Bears is better against Goblins. Next point, okay?



Point 2: Don't you dare question my capacity to understand fundamental Magic concepts, especially Tempo, when you can't make a post illustrating any sort of competent points on the subject and have to resort to attacks. I've never placed worse than 3rd in a Legacy tournament in my life and hold one of the top 100 Eternal Ratings in the US. I don't place in large tournaments because I can rarely afford to go to them.

Your rating does neither support nor belie your lack of understanding in which way both cards are creating card advantage. I don't say this because my rating is bad: I have a very solid ranking and rating, too. I really think that even good player's can be wrong about choices sometimes.



Point 3: 4C Landstill and Duck Hunt matchups have nothing whatsoever to do with Tempo in regards to this choice. It has to do with the fact that both run Diabolic Edict and both run Engineered Plague, one of which maindecks Plague and the other boards it. Duck Hunt also runs The Abyss.
Rakdos Guildmage can dodge Diabolic Edict, can dodge The Abyss, and lives through Engineered Plague. He also tends to eat Mishra's Factory with the -2/-2 ability in response to a pump unless a second Factory is on the board.

Confidant also tends to eat Mishra's Factory for less than 4 Mana because you draw Burn from it. Or a Sinkhole. Or a new creature. Or a Wasteland. Or the lands you need to play all these things through opposing Wastelands.

Maindeck Plague? Abyss? Only a few people will play it. It is not about single random choices. Rifter plays RoP: Red maindeck, it can be blue blasted and its ability gets worse against Ghostly Prison, Supression Field, Mana Denial etc. But do I use it as an argument against Rakdos Guildmage?

No, because it is all about Tempo of the ability. The difference is: If you untap with a Confidant in play you will create card advantage without spending 4 Mana. This is very important because you will very often not have more than 4 Mana or you want to spend your Mana on Hymn to Tourach, Sinkhole, cheap removal or cheap new creatures that remain in play.


Dark Confidant dies to Diabolic Edict

If you don't have 6 Mana in play the Guildmage will immediately fall to Edict. If you have 6 Mana in play and unless you plan to play around Edict by NOT using his ability, the Guildmage will also die from Diabolic Edict in response to creating the Token.


but so can not having to sacrifice lands to the Negator because your Rakdos Guildmage was able to remove the guy who might block him.

Even in this scenario where you have 2 creatures and 4 Mana Confidant is at least equal because he draws you cheap permanents to sacc or Mana to play them. And I don't even speak about the obvious superiority if you draw Burn.

[nitewolf9]

Guys, let's face the facts here...run both! Best of both worlds. Here is my proposed build:

4x dark confidant
4x rakdos guildmage
4x sarcomancy
3x carnophage (sarcomancy is strictly better w/ negator!)
1x Phyrexian (bob lets us run 1-ofs)

3x magma jet (now that's what I call synergy!)
4x lightning bolt (hey, it's a good spell)
4x sinkhole
4x hymn to tourach
4x dark ritual
2x duress
1x umezawa's jitte
1x sword of fire and ice (1 of equipments for bob to draw us into)

21 land

This build has at least 60% matchups against everything except survival, where it's more like 50/50. But that's what the sideboard is for!

1x extirpate
2x engineered plague (bob will draw them for us, but we need 2 to shut down goblins completely!)
1x dystopia
1x perish
1x tormod's crypt
1x umezawa's jitte
1x cabal therapy
1x boil
1x rough/tumble
1x cursed scroll
1x masticore
1x meltdown
1x null rod
1x darkblast

[Anarky87]

Guys, let's face the facts here...run both! Best of both worlds. Here is my proposed build:

4x dark confidant
4x rakdos guildmage
4x sarcomancy
3x carnophage (sarcomancy is strictly better w/ negator!)
1x Phyrexian (bob lets us run 1-ofs)

3x magma jet (now that's what I call synergy!)
4x lightning bolt (hey, it's a good spell)
4x sinkhole
4x hymn to tourach
4x dark ritual
2x duress
1x umezawa's jitte
1x sword of fire and ice (1 of equipments for bob to draw us into)

21 land

This build has at least 60% matchups against everything except survival, where it's more like 50/50. But that's what the sideboard is for!

1x extirpate
2x engineered plague (bob will draw them for us, but we need 2 to shut down goblins completely!)
1x dystopia
1x perish
1x tormod's crypt
1x umezawa's jitte
1x cabal therapy
1x boil
1x rough/tumble
1x cursed scroll
1x masticore
1x meltdown
1x null rod
1x darkblast


I don't know about everyone else, but I think Nitewolf is on to something. IMO, the deck he posted will be THE DTB come GP: Columbus.

[Ninj4]

brillance. don't forget 1 cabal therapy. it combos with both confidant AND rakdos guildmage. oh snaps, and you can use it twice, CARD ADVANTAGE?!

[nitewolf9]

It comes out of the board...trust me, I thought of it. I covered all my bases.

[Ninj4]

it just hit me. the board looks like a wish board, gotta run deathwish then.

its a 15 in one for the cost of dark ritual. use it to find cabal therapy and it'll be like u used no cards at all!

[laststepdown]

You forgot the duo of Sedge Troll and Sedge Sliver-but you probably don't even want to risk the fact that a sliver deck might have a swamp-so if you can fit in 1 Troll, you'll always draw him with Bob. You might consider pulling out a few dark rituals for Trolls-they're better than dark ritual because they can deal damage! and wear Jitte/SoFI, plus they regen!


+1 Sedge Troll
-1 Dark Ritual

At least!

[Tacosnape]

You've forgotten Anaba Grunt, as it's the only red creature besides Rakdos Guildmage we can play off Dark Ritual and possibly Burnt Offering (Why aren't we running that, too? We can sacrifice the tokens Rakdos Guildmage makes to it!)

I suggest cutting the Dark Confidants to make room for it.:P

[URABAHN]

If you are even going to begin considering Guildmage, why not just MD Jitte instead?

MD Jitte might be a super idea depending on the metagame. If it's true that the GP will be heavy on the aggro, Jitte could smash face. nitewolf9 and AnwarA101, in what situations has Jitte been good? When do you board it and for what?


Run Dark Confidant! He's really, really, really, really, really good!

This has been discussed before Tao, Dark Confidant does not belong in a suicide style deck.


Rakdos Guildmage can dodge Diabolic Edict, can dodge The Abyss, and lives through Engineered Plague. He also tends to eat Mishra's Factory with the -2/-2 ability in response to a pump unless a second Factory is on the board.

Why does any of this make Rakdos Guildmage any better than Rotting Giant or Wretched Anurid?

The reasons against Dark Confidant have been discussed in full and I won't repeat them here. Those same reasons can be applied to Rakdos Guildmage. Also, Rakdos Guildmage costs 4 mana to activate!

[Tao]

This has been discussed before Tao, Dark Confidant does not belong in a suicide style deck. The reasons against Dark Confidant have been discussed in full and I won't repeat them here. Those same reasons can be applied to Rakdos Guildmage. Also, Rakdos Guildmage costs 4 mana to activate!

I can live with that. The thing was that Tacosnape seemed to need creatures and thus tried even nearly strictly worse choices before trying Confidant because Confidant is bad because it is ... Confidant.

Anyway, I still don't see Confidant being inferior to Hypnotic Specter. You can Ritual it out on turn 1 combined with Duress which is one of the strongest plays in the format. It is also great for this type of deck because it is much safer than ritualing out a Specter (or Negator) and just hoping the opponent has no Removal.

And he is so much faster than Specter if you don't have that Dark Ritual.

[Zilla]

Stay on topic, people.

[Silverdragon]

Just a random thought but what is your opinion on playing Ravnica Duals instead of 1-2 Swamps in a field with almost no Wastelands? I know a friend who plays 4 B/W Ravnica Duals in his Deadguy list to support more Swords and Grunts (I believe he even plays a Serra Avenger). Is the lifeloss you'll often suffer worth the chance to play your burn more frequently? Are there any red creatures that could be considered?

[nitewolf9]

I think we've looked through all of the efficient red creatures to no avail. They really are tough to use because they can't come explosively out of the gates with ritual. It would probably have to be some sort of one-of instead of Anurid, which is really the only questionable creature I think. He still seems very good though, despite his steep drawback against goblins.

As far as Jitte goes, it's another goblin hoser for one (which isn't really the main reason to run it). What it also does is give you a fighting chance against decks like zoo/rg beats or decks packing equipment. It answers itself, makes burn cry, and is generally just a retarded card. The power level alone justifies it's inclusion, even if it really doesn't belong in the main deck. We don't have the best aggro matchup and this card pretty much replaces masticore's role in earlier suicide style decks.

[Anarky87]

Just a random thought but what is your opinion on playing Ravnica Duals instead of 1-2 Swamps in a field with almost no Wastelands? I know a friend who plays 4 B/W Ravnica Duals in his Deadguy list to support more Swords and Grunts (I believe he even plays a Serra Avenger). Is the lifeloss you'll often suffer worth the chance to play your burn more frequently? Are there any red creatures that could be considered?

I suppose you could, but having to take 2 damage when you want an untapped Badlands seems to suck balls. I know in Deadguy, before I started playing Death, I used to run 4 Scrubs and 2 Shrines. In a field with almost no Wasteland, I can't see why just having your 3-4 Badlands wouldn't be enough. It's not like they're hitting your non-basics.

[Happy Gilmore]

Just a random thought but what is your opinion on playing Ravnica Duals instead of 1-2 Swamps in a field with almost no Wastelands? I know a friend who plays 4 B/W Ravnica Duals in his Deadguy list to support more Swords and Grunts (I believe he even plays a Serra Avenger). Is the lifeloss you'll often suffer worth the chance to play your burn more frequently? Are there any red creatures that could be considered?
It simply not needed. 4 badlands and 7 fetches gives you more red than you could ever need. The biggest problem is getting 2x swamps in play, so adding Rav duals is only making it harder on yourself. However, if you only have Blood Crypts and can't afford badlands lol its probably exceptable.

[Nihil Credo]

I think you should try some Tainted Peaks before going for the Blood Crypts. They can't be fetched, but they're painless and this deck supports well their drawback.

[nitewolf9]

I think you should try some Tainted Peaks before going for the Blood Crypts. They can't be fetched, but they're painless and this deck supports well their drawback.

I forsee even more of a chance of getting screwed out of BB by doing this, which is in very delicate balance as it is.

[Nihil Credo]

I forsee even more of a chance of getting screwed out of BB by doing this, which is in very delicate balance as it is.
Huh? If you have only two mana sources, and one of them is a Tainted Peak, then the other one is:
a) another Tainted Peak - damn slim chance if you only run a couple
b) a Wasteland - you wouldn't have BB anyway
c) a fetchland, Swamp, or dual land - you have BB

I think you managed to nail pretty much the only argument that doesn't go against the use of Tainted Peaks :P

[nitewolf9]

Wasteland is still in the format...plus, it would suck to have a really broken hand of something like ritual x2, threat, disruption x2, wasteland, tainted peak, or something like that.

[Nihil Credo]

Wasteland is still in the format...plus, it would suck to have a really broken hand of something like ritual x2, threat, disruption x2, wasteland, tainted peak, or something like that.
These are good reasons not to play extra dual lands.

Although giving Anwar less broken openings might be considered a good thing... ;)

[C.P.]

Huh? If you have only two mana sources, and one of them is a Tainted Peak, then the other one is:
a) another Tainted Peak - damn slim chance if you only run a couple
b) a Wasteland - you wouldn't have BB anyway
c) a fetchland, Swamp, or dual land - you have BB

I think you managed to nail pretty much the only argument that doesn't go against the use of Tainted Peaks :P

You would only have colorless if you play the Peak while a swamp gives you B. Peak is suboptimal card. I'd rather play painlands than the tained lands.

[Tacosnape]

Why does any of this make Rakdos Guildmage any better than Rotting Giant or Wretched Anurid?


It doesn't. I was arguing that it was better than Dark Confidant.

It's certainly not better than Rotting Giant, and if I didn't tend to draw two in my opening hand with minimal graveyard fodder, I'd run 4 of those and be done with it.

I like it better than Anurid because it has two positive abilities over one negative ability. If you activate its red ability once over the span of three turns, which isn't unheard of, it's swinging for 8 to Anurid's 9, which isn't bad. I also like it better than Anurid against decks packing Mage and Confidant for its ability to eat them (Although Anurid's nicer against Mongoose.) I think I like it better against Goblins, but I'm not quite positive yet. The extra 1/1 is nice against Goblins, although the life loss isn't.

Anurid, however, is faster against combo, easier to cast against decks packing LD, and bigger. I'm still undecided on the slot.

[Firebrothers]

It doesn't. I was arguing that it was better than Dark Confidant.

It's certainly not better than Rotting Giant, and if I didn't tend to draw two in my opening hand with minimal graveyard fodder, I'd run 4 of those and be done with it.

I like it better than Anurid because it has two positive abilities over one negative ability. If you activate its red ability once over the span of three turns, which isn't unheard of, it's swinging for 8 to Anurid's 9, which isn't bad. I also like it better than Anurid against decks packing Mage and Confidant for its ability to eat them (Although Anurid's nicer against Mongoose.) I think I like it better against Goblins, but I'm not quite positive yet. The extra 1/1 is nice against Goblins, although the life loss isn't.

Anurid, however, is faster against combo, easier to cast against decks packing LD, and bigger. I'm still undecided on the slot.

But you have to think here. How often are you going to be able to use the abilities. As the anurid attacks you are playing other things, bolts, sinkholes, hymn, other dudes. I do not want to pump 4 mana into the guildmage as opposed to disrupting an opponent.

The ability is useful in certain situations, I agree. But you have to look at the whole gameplan of the deck before adding such an expensive creature.

Edit; The red ability seems to have bad synergy with e. plague.... just my opinion.

[Happy Gilmore]

4 Red Death decks at our last local tournament! That’s got to be a record high for any tournament lol. And I had a chance to play against the whole tier 1, one after another.

Round 1 = goblins (unregistered) , 2-0
Round 2 = UGR (MadZur), 2-1, lost game 1
Round 3 = Solidarity (Deep6er), 2-1 extremely close and surprisingly the hardest of the top tier to beat.

Round 4 = Mirror match, Draw, AnwarA101

SB:
4x Dystopia
3x Crypt
3x Jitte
2x Fire Covenant
2x Infest
1x Withered Wretch

I couldn't find my E-plagues, and as it turns out...Infest + Jitte is extremely effective against goblins. I would really like to find some way of fitting Null Rod in the board for TES and IGGy Pop. And suggestions? I was thinking of taking out crypts for them and instead bring in 3x jitte and 4x Dystopia against grow. What do you guys think?

[nitewolf9]

I still kind of like null rod, because it disrupts non-solidarity storm combo very effectively. But is it worth not running with cabal therapy or crypt? Maybe...
I still would like to test extirpate, but null rod seems okay (despite having anti-synergy with jitte in a few matchups, namely fairy/angel stompy, but the rod is way more powerful there I think...and would have helped me tremednously against affinity obviously :)).

[AnwarA101]

4 Red Death decks at our last local tournament! That’s got to be a record high for any tournament lol. And I had a chance to play against the whole tier 1, one after another.

Round 1 = goblins (unregistered) , 2-0
Round 2 = UGR (MadZur), 2-1, lost game 1
Round 3 = Solidarity (Deep6er), 2-1 extremely close and surprisingly the hardest of the top tier to beat.


Where is all your whining? I can't draw lands!!! I don't draw enough creatures!! I don't see you complaining now about how terrible your hands were. You beat the DTBs, what's your excuse now?

[Happy Gilmore]

Where is all your whining? I can't draw lands!!! I don't draw enough creatures!! I don't see you complaining now about how terrible your hands were. You beat the DTBs, what's your excuse now?

I never said the deck was bad, and I never said I did not like the deck. I only complained that the deck hated me. But I fixed the issue it was causing me as I said.

-1 Anurid
+1 Bloodstained Mire

Never had a problem finding 2x black source in the opening hand. The times I mulled involved hands I knew would lose.

And I love negator...god I love that card.

Negator is so powerful when I play it that......

[AnwarA101]

I never said the deck was bad, and I never said I did not like the deck. I only complained that the deck hated me. But I fixed the issue it was causing me as I said.

-1 Anurid
+1 Bloodstained Mire

Never had a problem finding 2x black source in the opening hand. The times I mulled involved hands I knew would lose.



I disagree with cutting the 16th creature for the 18th black source. If I would add the 18th black source, I would probably cut Wasteland as it doesn't add any mana sources (going to 26 seems awfully high).



And I love negator...god I love that card.

Negator is so powerful when I play it that......


I don't want to hear it from you. When I initially played Suicide at the Frog Invitiational, you were like "You are not actually going to play that?" Then I went 9-1 in games and you were like "That deck looks so cool!" I think I won the argument on Negator, don't I get to make fun of your incorrect statements?

[Happy Gilmore]

I don't want to hear it from you. When I initially played Suicide at the Frog Invitiational, you were like "You are not actually going to play that?" Then I went 9-1 in games and you were like "That deck looks so cool!" I think I won the argument on Negator, don't I get to make fun of your incorrect statements?

Actually it was Flesh Reaver specifically that I was referring to, can’t you get your facts straight! I always loved Negator. He is “The Balls” as I like to call him. Negator is the best kind of rush.

[URABAHN]

I still kind of like null rod, because it disrupts non-solidarity storm combo very effectively. But is it worth not running with cabal therapy or crypt? Maybe...

Null Rod is great except when Mike Morgan goes Petal, LED, LED, Ritual, Ritual, Ritual, Infernal Tutor with Hellbent. Or when wastedlife goes Rite of Flame, Rite of Flame, Petal, Empty the Warrens on Turn 1. I like Cabal Therapy in that spot because I don't think you need help against decks that run equipment. Red Death is heavily favored against Faerie Stompy, at least favored against Angel Stompy, and Alix Hatfield proves you can win the close ones against Affinity. I just don't like how Null Rod, no pun intended, doesn't DO anything.

What I wanna know is if the Gro matchup is really worth packing 3x Crypt in the board. I remember using Cabal Therapy in that matchup at the first Mana Leak Open and liking it a lot.

[nitewolf9]

A good point about null rod, and TES definitely does not recover from discard nearly as well as iggy pop (not many people are playing iggy pop anymore, and I think it is for good reason). I did almost pull the match against affinity as well this weekend, if I had drawn a red source I would have won. I like tormod's crypt, but therapy is so powerful. I'm not really sure which one is the better choice for today's metagame, but I like the art on cabal therapy much more so I'll roll with that :cool:.

[Tacosnape]

Red Death is heavily favored against Faerie Stompy

Out of curiosity, how? I tend to lose to Faerie Stompy quite a lot as they like to go Roll-an-18, Tomb, Chalice, go.

[nitewolf9]

Out of curiosity, how? I tend to lose to Faerie Stompy quite a lot as they like to go Roll-an-18, Tomb, Chalice, go.

I agree with this not being the best matchup. Chalice for one does hurt, but not as much as it hurts a deck like threshold for instance. We can just as equally go roll-an-18, swamp, ritual, duress, hymn or hypnotic specter and they have a rough time. We really, really don't like SoFI though :frown:. Fairy stompy is, however, easily disrupt-able and does not mulligan well, a price it pays for its explosive quality. I don't think it is ever a very big presence but the match is very much a dice roll (no pun intended). Jitte from the board also helps to answer their jitte's, which is a big bonus.

I like Anwar's analogy of that deck; they are dancing near a cliff, and you simply have to give them a push. Sometimes they step to the side and let you fall over instead, but that happens.

[Tacosnape]

I agree with this not being the best matchup. Chalice for one does hurt, but not as much as it hurts a deck like threshold for instance. We can just as equally go roll-an-18, swamp, ritual, duress, hymn or hypnotic specter and they have a rough time.

This would be one of those rare instances where going back to Meltdown might be nice.

It also might help if I averaged higher than a 4 when rolling 1d20.

[nitewolf9]

I would definitely run null rod over meltdown if I had to choose...it's proactive, not reactive. And yes, null rod kicks fairy stompy in the balls, but that's not reason enough to run it. I wouldn't concern yourself too much with the deck...if it is a problem in your metagame, try packing the null rods. And try putting a rabbit's foot on your keychain.

[Citrus-God]

Would Chalice of the Void be better agiainst Combo than Null Rod?

I guess against a deck like Faerie Stompy, it can be kinda dead... but doesnt this deck bash Faerie Stompy's face in already.

Also, let's see what CotV for 1 hits:

4 Dark Rituals
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning

That's not much. It's the equipment that scares you really. CotV for 2 sucks though. Meltdown may be better in this situation.

[jebus]

With Chalice, you also lose Duress, as well as Cabal Therapy out of the board. Losing those and Dark Ritual hurt. In general, you want to disrupt and apply fast and painful pressure against Combo, not disrupt and take your time killing your opponent.

[Happy Gilmore]

against iggy pop or TES CotV is probably about equal to null rod in effectiveness...except...it costs zero. You would never set it to one since the whole purpose in the first place is to counter artifact mana. But Nullrod is much much better against stompy variants, and of course affinity. Nullrod still wins imo.

This is the sb I might consider for a large tournament like the GP

4x Dystopia
3x Jitte
4x Engineered Plague
3x Null Rod
1x Withered Wretch/Darkblast/Undead Gladiator?/ <insert card here>

what do you think? You end up bringing in Jitte over crypts against grow. I am not sure if that is better or worse.

[AnwarA101]

Actually it was Flesh Reaver specifically that I was referring to, can’t you get your facts straight! I always loved Negator. He is “The Balls” as I like to call him. Negator is the best kind of rush.

You are right you were talking about Flesh Reaver. I remember you also told me you didn't have the guts (you used a different word) to play Negator. Now you are talking about playing this deck at the GP? Wow, what a difference a year makes.

[nitewolf9]

It takes time for people to warm up to the dark side.

As far as null rod goes, don't forget the anti-synergy with jitte...might be relevant in the stompy matchups considering jitte is awesome against them as well. Just saying. I think therapy is a better choice overall. I have yet to test extirpate though. It's a hard card to judge on paper I think, but I will reserve my conclusions for actual results.

[Citrus-God]

With Chalice, you also lose Duress, as well as Cabal Therapy out of the board. Losing those and Dark Ritual hurt. In general, you want to disrupt and apply fast and painful pressure against Combo, not disrupt and take your time killing your opponent.

lol. I should've been more specific. I was talking about what you lose when Chalice for 1 is set against you. You'd obviously want to play Chalice for Zero against Combo. Against Solidarity, I think Chalice for 1 is kinda win-more against a deck like Solidarity. And if your playing Chalice, arent you playing it through Ritual? You can go 1st turn Dark Rit, Duress, Chalice. You can protect it. I'm just saying, it might find a place here.

[AnwarA101]

Would Chalice of the Void be better agiainst Combo than Null Rod?

I guess against a deck like Faerie Stompy, it can be kinda dead... but doesnt this deck bash Faerie Stompy's face in already.

Also, let's see what CotV for 1 hits:

4 Dark Rituals
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning

That's not much. It's the equipment that scares you really. CotV for 2 sucks though. Meltdown may be better in this situation.


There use to be a deck called "Chalice Black". I don't have much details except to say that I saw one person play it way back when Chalice had just come out. I also remember ObfuscateFreely mentioning it to me one time so maybe he can fill in some details about that deck.

As for Chalice of the Void, I've actively considered it in the board for awhile, but ultimately I didn't like the synergy it had with the deck. You already have a bunch of spells at 1 exactly 15 pre-board and you'll probably want to board most of these out if you plan to bring in Chalice for 1 unless you are planning to set it to 0 which might be fine except that only works against Tendrils combo and I've found Crypt to be especially good there. So I'm not sure what Chalice would be for? It could help in the Thresh matchup which I'm always worried about, but I'm not sure its better than Crypt and Dystopia.

[Di]

There use to be a deck called "Chalice Black". I don't have much details except to say that I saw one person play it way back when Chalice had just come out. I also remember ObfuscateFreely mentioning it to me one time so maybe he can fill in some details about that deck.

A quick digging through the archives I got these:


Chalice Black (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1451&highlight=Chalice+Black)

Chalice Black/w (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1214&highlight=Chalice+Black)

They are from soooo long ago, but they honestly look very similiar to the black decks these days, minus of course the Chalice and Sphere of Resistance.


Also on an unrelated note, the archives have some really interesting stuff. I noticed there was an black Ancient Tomb-based Chalice aggro deck from like 2004. Then that archtype died for a few years. Now those decks are apparently the hot new thing, just look at Faerie Stompy.

[Tacosnape]

A quick digging through the archives I got these:


Chalice Black (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1451&highlight=Chalice+Black)

Chalice Black/w (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1214&highlight=Chalice+Black)

They are from soooo long ago, but they honestly look very similiar to the black decks these days, minus of course the Chalice and Sphere of Resistance.

Am I the only one who can't access those links?

[Di]

Oh, I guess only Admins can view those pages, since I got a couple of PM's regarding them not working, yet they work fine for me. I guess I'll just post it then.

Remember though, this is like 2004.

// Chalice Black
// 1cc
4 Duress
4 Dark Ritual
// 2cc
4 Nantuku Shade
2 Withered Wretch
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Sphere of Resistance
// 3cc
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Phyrexian Negator
// Xcc
4 Chalice of the Void
// Land
4 Wasteland
18 Swamps

Looking at it you'll see the obvious similarities. There wasn't a sideboard posted though, not that it'd be relevant today anyway.

[Machinus]

I noticed there was an black Ancient Tomb-based Chalice aggro deck from like 2004. Then that archtype died for a few years. Now those decks are apparently the hot new thing, just look at Faerie Stompy.

When did it die exactly?? Tomb+Chalice has always been good.

[Michael Keller]

I'm sure everyone knows how powerful Hymn to Tourach is. As obvious a bomb it is against combo and Solidarity, has anyone given thought to adding 3 or 4 more in the sideboard?

I'm referring to Wrench Mind, that is. I'd much rather board in 3 or 4 Wrench Minds (more Hymn power) against Solidarity/Combo than keep some burn spells. I know they (burn, that is) speed up the clock, but depleting the hand is so much more important IMO against decks like those because they can sustain that kind of damage before going off (a late Bolt could possibly win the game via stack against Solidarity). I play-tested it a bit and it turned out to be pretty devastating against the big blue giant. Ten-twelve discard is good sometimes I hear. Just a thought.

People might think Wrench is 'bad' if an opponent discards an artifact. In that situation, consider it a two mana Duress at worst. I know Anwar loves discard (as well as I). How do you feel about it?

[Di]

When did it die exactly?? Tomb+Chalice has always been good.

I was referring to Ancient Tomb-based aggro decks. Before Faerie Stompy came around, they were basically non-existant.

[nitewolf9]

I'm sure everyone knows how powerful Hymn to Tourach is. As obvious a bomb it is against combo and Solidarity, has anyone given thought to adding 3 or 4 more in the sideboard?

I'm referring to Wrench Mind, that is. I'd much rather board in 3 or 4 Wrench Minds (more Hymn power) against Solidarity/Combo than keep some burn spells. I know they (burn, that is) speed up the clock, but depleting the hand is so much more important IMO against decks like those because they can sustain that kind of damage before going off (a late Bolt could possibly win the game via stack against Solidarity). I play-tested it a bit and it turned out to be pretty devastating against the big blue giant. Ten-twelve discard is good sometimes I hear. Just a thought.

People might think Wrench is 'bad' if an opponent discards an artifact. In that situation, consider it a two mana Duress at worst. I know Anwar loves discard (as well as I). How do you feel about it?


Wrench mind isn't nearly as powerful as cabal therapy, especially in this deck. And I don't think I'd want to go overboard on the discard in the sideboard (I'd run 3-4 therapies if any at all). Feel free to try it out but I think the results will be underwhelming. I know rise/fall was tested in the deck in lieu of therapy and the results were less than stellar.

[Machinus]

I was referring to Ancient Tomb-based aggro decks. Before Faerie Stompy came around, they were basically non-existant.

I guess you mean large tournaments? I always thought they were unpopular, but nonexistent is depressing.

I can't be the only person building and playing these decks locally. They have been good since 2004!

[edgewalker]

I remember Jander played a deck called 5/3. It was a straight artifact aggro deck with no color splashes. I hate to get off topic but it happens.

Regarding chalice black, the deck has an awsome control and combo match-up, but a shitty aggro one. From what I understand so does red death. My only issue is why would you sacrifice a decent to poor aggro match-up to a shitty one for an already good combo and control match-up? I think at this point as far as black aggro decks go red death is where it's at.

[Happy Gilmore]

I remember Jander played a deck called 5/3. It was a straight artifact aggro deck with no color splashes. I hate to get off topic but it happens.

Regarding chalice black, the deck has an awsome control and combo match-up, but a shitty aggro one. From what I understand so does red death. My only issue is why would you sacrifice a decent to poor aggro match-up to a shitty one for an already good combo and control match-up? I think at this point as far as black aggro decks go red death is where it's at.

Actually I think the deck that gives me the most trouble out of the top three (thresh, goblins, solidarity) is Solidarity and not goblins. Remand is such a kick in the junk it is not even fair. And Wrench Mind is bad not because of the effect, but because you can't cast it twice easily in one turn. You need some way of getting around Remand.

And what agro deck are you refering to? 3 color agro, Angel stompy, F-Stompy? Anything with Green or White gets hit hard by Dystopia, and Jitte is prity effective as well. Of all those only F-Stompy really worrys me. Many of their creatures are too big and the ones that are not can be saved by Chalice for 1.

[nitewolf9]

Actually I think the deck that gives me the most trouble out of the top three (thresh, goblins, solidarity) is Solidarity and not goblins. Remand is such a kick in the junk it is not even fair. And Wrench Mind is bad not because of the effect, but because you can't cast it twice easily in one turn. You need some way of getting around Remand.

And what agro deck are you refering to? 3 color agro, Angel stompy, F-Stompy? Anything with Green or White gets hit hard by Dystopia, and Jitte is prity effective as well. Of all those only F-Stompy really worrys me. Many of their creatures are too big and the ones that are not can be saved by Chalice for 1.

Plus, protection from red is a biatch (as is SoFI...god I hate that card).

[Tacosnape]

I agree that Remand is a bitch troll from hell and Solidarity can be tough if you can't get a fast Specter down.

So, ok, my pocketbook kind of hopes someone has a good way to shoot this suggestion down, but as Red Death struggles against Solidarity and recently lost to Threshold in a Top Eight, what do we think about Chains of Mephistopheles? I've been considering it a lot and I sort of like what it has going for it.

1. It's playable off a Dark Ritual. This, to me, is close to being a requirement.
2. It seriously hurts half of the blue (and some nonblue) cards in existence. Most notably Brainstorm in every deck packing it. It also shuts down Meditate/Peek/Stroke (Solidarity), Predict/Serum Visions/Mental Note (Threshold), Standstill/Skeletal Scrying (Landstill variants), Argothian Enchantress/Enchantress's Presence (Enchantress, though Words circumvents this), Thirst for Knowledge / SOFI Card Draw Trigger (Faerie Stompy), Mask of Memory / SOFI Trigger (Angel Stompy), and so forth and so on.

Obviously, it has its limitations, as decks like Goblins, Deadguy Ale, Survival, and so forth get their card advantage without actually drawing the cards. But, Iunno.