[OLD] UGw Threshold

[Citrus-God]

Stifle just hits Combo, and Ringleader and Matron cip triggers. They also do so much more random goodness.

@Solpugid: I'm just saying, playing Predicts dont give you the midgame if you run Mental Notes, it just gives you Threshold. Running more Cantrips in the Mental Note version is good, but running 16 makes this deck hallow. It wants real cards, because it cant dig for them with Mental Note, whereas, The Predict versions just has only like 4 Categories (lands, threats, answers, and cantrips) in their deck, not much unique or special.

[Lego]

For that reason, it's probably okay to play just 3 of them.

Playing three of them is fine for the whole ilusion factor, making your opponents play around them. But for that one time when they actually decide not to play around it to risk dropping that turn two Survival so they can go nuts on turn 3, you actually need to have the Daze.

[raudo]

I've dropped all predicts out and now I have had much better success against goblins and aggro. I'm really not missing Predicts at all.

Currently I run:

4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Portent
3 Mental note

[Citrus-God]

Please tell me your running Mages, Needles, and 17 Lands with 4 Portents? It's cool, that you like Mental Note, but at least your playing Portent as well. I cant bitch about that really.


Anyone discussed about Geddons' viability in the metagame yet?

[raudo]

Troll Ascetics are really a nuisance. I don't know how often they pop up in any of your meta but I have run into too many times right now. Against them 1 Mystic Enforcer main deck is not enough. There is so many times I've been missing Wrath of God. If not main decked, maybe 2-4 in sideboard?

[Citrus-God]

Troll Ascetics are really a nuisance. I don't know how often they pop up in any of your meta but I have run into too many times right now. Against them 1 Mystic Enforcer main deck is not enough. There is so many times I've been missing Wrath of God. If not main decked, maybe 2-4 in sideboard?

Are you serious? I have them all over my metagame as well. In forms of RGSA and RG Beatz. In RG SA, I generally dont care much for them, and seem to act as though they're just ground walls, and I draw Enforcer ftw. If it's RG Beatz, you should consider running more Needles. They're deadly in that kind of deck. If they have a Rancor, your just screwed. Calling Troll with Needle has won me countless number of games, and Having Bears stall the ground until you draw Enforcer isnt a bad play either.

Also, EE should make them to tap them selves out among other things. My SB configuration against them would be...

-1 Portent
-1 Serum Visions
-4 Meddling Mage

+2 Engineered Explosives
+1 Pithing Needle
+3 Hydroblast/2 Hydroblast and 1 Mystic Enforcer

If you playing against RGSA, make sure Needle gets on Survival, and a Mage set on FtK. As for your Troll problem, they shouldn't be much of a factor Game 2. You side in Geddons', another Enforcer, and your Loaming Shamans/Grunts. I have played this match-up tons of times, and that is the best I've got.

[Kilz88]

My build, yes I know it is Gro:

MAIN
4 Quirion Dryad
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Meddling Mage
1 Mystic Enforcer
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
3 Sleight of Hand
1 Ancestral Vision
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Counterspell
1 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Engineered Explosives

4 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
1 Island
1 Forest

BOARD
4 Jotun Grunt
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Worship
1 Chill
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Stifle
1 Compost
3 ?? I dont remember what these last spots were. If I remember I will edit it.

Comments, concerns, please?

You need to describe your card choices in more depth than a list. This is true anywhere on the site, but even moreso in the LMF, and particularly when discussing such differing selections from the norm. Please elaborate if you want responses. ~ Nightmare

[Citrus-God]

My build, yes I know it is Gro:

MAIN
4 Quirion Dryad
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Meddling Mage
1 Mystic Enforcer
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
3 Sleight of Hand
1 Ancestral Vision
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Counterspell
1 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Engineered Explosives

4 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
1 Island
1 Forest

BOARD
4 Jotun Grunt
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Worship
1 Chill
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Stifle
1 Compost
3 ?? I dont remember what these last spots were. If I remember I will edit it.

Comments, concerns, please?

You need to describe your card choices in more depth than a list. This is true anywhere on the site, but even moreso in the LMF, and particularly when discussing such differing selections from the norm. Please elaborate if you want responses. ~ Nightmare

1. Goblins is going to give you trouble.
2. The Enlighten Tutor Sideboard is pretty bad in the mirror, but the idea seems pretty flexible and verstile.
3. Take out Dryad, she's awful versus Goblins.
4. Take out two fetchlands for another Island and a Plains, then put Back to Basics in the sideboard.
5. I like your idea, heres my SB if I were to run that kind of SB...


// Sideboard 15
3 Enlighten Tutor
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ground Seal
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Worship
1 Back to Basics
1 Winter Orb
3 Stifle
2 Hydroblast

[umbowta]

3. Take out Dryad, she's awful versus Goblins.
Can you please elaborate on that becase, in my experience, this is absolutely not the case. Even Kilz88 should remember me beating up on his gobbos with an 8/8 Dryad in the Kettering Lotus Tourney. Maybe I just know how to grow the green lady or maybe my Goblin weilding opponents have had bad draws, who knows. As I see it, Gempalm and Mogg are the only ways to take out an early-ish Dryad. Gro has lots more ways to grow the dryad out of killable range while controlling the tempo of the game. I'm not saying Dryad is the awesome sauce against Goblins, but she's far from awful.

[Solpugid]

But running dryad in threshold is suboptimal, regardless. She rewards you for playing spells quickly, where my experience with thresh leads me to play much more conservatively. In short, the way you play NQG is quite different from the way you play Gro.

I used to run her, as a 3-of, and I never liked the way she affected my play decisions. I was spending countermagic to protect her early on, and didn't have it when my opponent followed up with wrath or deed.

[Citrus-God]

But running dryad in threshold is suboptimal, regardless. She rewards you for playing spells quickly, where my experience with thresh leads me to play much more conservatively. In short, the way you play NQG is quite different from the way you play Gro.

I used to run her, as a 3-of, and I never liked the way she affected my play decisions. I was spending countermagic to protect her early on, and didn't have it when my opponent followed up with wrath or deed.

What he said, except it's making you try and grow her rather than trying to play more conservitively. I wouldn't mine having her against Combo, as she does seem to be better there. And if your going to run her, at least drop the Geese and run Equipment like Jitte.

[Bardo]

Maybe I just know how to grow the green lady or maybe my Goblin weilding opponents have had bad draws, who knows. As I see it, Gempalm and Mogg are the only ways to take out an early-ish Dryad.

This is pretty much the reason why she's bad. As much as I love Dryad, she's really fragile when she hits the board. With the Threshold guys, you can just cantrip and play control cards until you can just drop 4/4 and 3/3 directly into play without getting "cute."

[umbowta]

So many good points. Where to start?


But running dryad in threshold is suboptimal, regardless. She rewards you for playing spells quickly, where my experience with thresh leads me to play much more conservatively. In short, the way you play NQG is quite different from the way you play Gro.
Maybe that's why I like playing Gro better than NQG. Why would I, of all people, want to play conservatively when I could just play with my pants down...it's just an analogy.




I was spending countermagic to protect her early on, and didn't have it when my opponent followed up with wrath or deed.When did Goblins start using Wrath and Deed?

If your talking about playing against Thunder Bluff (aka Truffle Shuffle)then it doesn't matter if you're using Bears or Dryads. You're probably going to lose anyway.


With the Threshold guys, you can just cantrip and play control cards until you can just drop 4/4 and 3/3 directly into play without getting "cute."...as long as you can get to threshold, and protect your graveyard in a meta that hates this decks' existence.


And if your going to run her, at least drop the Geese and run Equipment like Jitte.Point taken and Roop's "Miracle Gro" fills that request nicely. I still need to pick up a few cheap Jitte's 'cause I traded mine away while they were at $20 a piece.

[Bardo]

...as long as you can get to threshold, and protect your graveyard in a meta that hates this decks' existence.

Yeah. Having some fat that doesn't care about the graveyard is the main reason to run Dryad. Because, otherwise, the difference between a non-evasive 7/7 for 1G and a non-evasive 4/4 for 1G isn't that big of a deal. But the difference between a 7/7 and a 1/1 for 1G (i.e. Crypt) is a whole other story.

[Tao]

I always felt good about Dryad as a sideboard card.

You can side it in against many decks in many situations:

- if you want additional threats (Truffle Shuffle, Wombat, Rifter, Mirror)

It is very strong against Rifter because they don't get rid of it so easy. Dryad will grow quickly out of Rift range and Humility does not remove the counters. Against decks like Truffle Shuffle you can concentrate on countering their important cards like Divinng Top because you don't have to protect every threat if you can replay one from your hand. In the Mirror Dryad is really extremely strong because it quickly gets the strongest creature on the table and it also dodges Yard hate.

- against decks with a heavy yard hate theme (Iggy Pop, Deadguy Ale, Mirror)
It is a good way to beat decks that bring in Wretches, Crypts, Leylines or other Yard hate. All you have to do is to protect the Dryad and let Wretches, Crypts etc resolve. You can win some games by Drayd alone and the card advantage created by the opponent's dead graveyard hate.

[Solpugid]

Tao, next time I run this deck I think I'm going to try it with dryad in the board too. Actually, I want to run a full transformational sideboard into Evil Roopey's Gro list. I'll dodge all the grave hate my opponents board in, and I'll even have sideboard jotun grunts to shore up the mirror.

It sounds good in theory, but I still need to do some testing.

[Citrus-God]

The big differences between the two is the fact that Dryad takes at least two turns of development without being proactive because it's stats are still weak, whereas Werebear uses those two turns to deal 8 damage. And if you want Dryad as a SB card, I wont stop you because IMO, think this is a very hard card for Control, and Combo to deal with. I lost so many games to IGGy because Leyline was giving them enough time to do what they want, Dryad makes that a different situation for them.

[umbowta]

Dryad takes at least two turns of development without being proactive because it's stats are still weak, The way I see it, Daze, FoW, and StP are all very proactive and net counters on Dryad. It's pretty likely that you can Daze or Force something on your opponents turn, and then StP or Cantrip on your turn, which gets you in there for three.

I'd rather have Dryad than Werebear in the mirror match any day. I'd Rather have Dryad against IGGy. But, I'd rather have Werebear than Dryad against Goblins. Right now I'm seeing waaaaaay more mirror and IGGy than Goblins. You see where I'm going with this. Add to that the fact that everyone hates my graveyard, and I choose to run Dryad main.

Against Gobbos this means that I have to side in Grunts for extra cheap fat and I side in BEB's 'cause they're awesome. The result is 15 ways to, "stop a first turn lackey" and +3 Fatties that gobbo's has a hard time dealing with. I will usually put Needle on Gempalm first to protect my fat, then try to get one down on Vial or SGC.

[Citrus-God]

Just out of curiosity, what is your current build at the moment? I will admit, Dryad is pretty damn good, but not against Aggro. I'm currently testing 4 Dryads, and I severely love them! I side them in like 65% of the time, and it's been doing well for me.

[umbowta]

Just out of curiosity, what is your current build at the moment? I will admit, Dryad is pretty damn good, but not against Aggro. I'm currently testing 4 Dryads, and I severely love them! I side them in like 65% of the time, and it's been doing well for me.

Here's what I'm currently running in UGw Gro

Lands-17
4 Tundra
3 Trops
4 Windswept
3 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

Trips-14
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
3 Portent (yeah I know I hate this card...I'm such a hypocrite)
3 Mental Note

Beats-12
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Quirion Dryad
3 Meddling Mage
1 Mystic Enforcer

Control Elements-17
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives (thx Bardo)
2 Disenchant (funny how Finn mentioned this as the current Artifact Blast...it's not nearly that narrow)


Sideboard
2 Hydroblast
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Worship/Tiv's Crusade
2 Armageddon
2 Pithing Needle
1 Meddling Mage
1 Mystic Enforcer
3 Jotun Grunt(though I am considering the Loaming Shaman suggestion)

[Citrus-God]

@Umbowta: Dude... why are you running Mental Note with only 5 Thresh Dudes? What are your opinions on Portent? I really like it, and it gets me those first turn Dazes better than Brainstorm. It also gets be my 1st turn land better than the other cantrips. I think you should up them up to four, as they help your Mages out, and make Dryad grow bigger.

[Bardo]

@ Umbowta - With Dryad in the deck, I can't imagine that Portent is really better than Sleight of Hand. I also second that Mental Note can't be that hot in a deck with only a set of Mongeese and an Enforcer. By the time Enforcer hits the board, you should already have threshold, and running 3 Notes for 4 Mongeese seems "less than optimal." ;)

[Volt]

With Dryad in the deck, I can't imagine that Portent is really better than Sleight of Hand.

Could you elaborate?

Mind you, I'm not necessarily disagreeing. I ask only because I've been trying to come up with guidelines for determining when to run SoH and when to run Portent.

[Bardo]

Could you elaborate?

Sure. With Dryad as a beatdown machine, you want to string together as many spells on your turn as you can to monster-ize her. With slow-trips, you get +1/+1 for that spell and then draw another card in your opponent's upkeep, when Dryad wants you to be drawing card(s) now, not later.

[b4r0n]

I think Bardo is referring to the fact that Sleight of Hand allows you to chain cantrips, which makes your Dryad very big, very fast. While Portent digs one deeper, it doesn't give you a card immediately. With Dryad in play, you want that card immediately, so Sleight would seem to be a better choice. I also agree with Bardo that Mental Notes don't seem very optimal in that build.

Personally, I'm still not sold on running Dryad maindeck, especially over Werebear. Pre-board, I'd much rather pay 1G for a 4/4 than 1G for a 1/1 that has the potential to become larger than a 4/4. Maindeck removal is much more prevalent than graveyard hate, so Dryad is likely to be more vulnerable. Post-board, however, most decks have access to some form of graveyard hate. If you fear that, Dryad might be a potential solution. Or, if you know that your opponent isn't running relevant removal, Dryad could be alright to bring in; you can freely commit resources towards making it large (and speeding up your clock) without worrying about it getting killed.

EDIT: Bardo is faster than me. :frown:

[umbowta]

Sure. With Dryad as a beatdown machine, you want to string together as many spells on your turn as you can to monster-ize her. With slow-trips, you get +1/+1 for that spell and then draw another card in your opponent's upkeep, when Dryad wants you to be drawing card(s) now, not later.
Dammit! I knew there was a reason I friggin hate Portent. Sometimes the simplest things are sooo easy to miss when they're right in front of your face. Jeeez I'm stupid.

The cantrips section is a holdover from straight thresh. When I decided to maindeck Dryads, I literally yanked bears and inserted Dryads. I'm blaming way too much time spent behind mathbooks for that grievous error. I'll probably switch to 4 Slieght, 2 Portent now.

Honestly I'm shocked that none of you are bashing me for running maindecked Disenchant. Seriously. Who runs maindeck Disenchant?

[Bardo]

Honestly I'm shocked that none of you are bashing me for running maindecked Disenchant. Seriously. Who runs maindeck Disenchant?

Sure, I can see running Disenchant in the Needle slot. They arguably fill the same role and have different pros and cons. Like dropping a Pithing Needle on Humility? Not so hot. Disenchant on Umezawa's Jitte? Not bad. Sometimes it's even better than Pithing Needle, which can be disenchanted itself.

Anyway, Disenchant has been used in the maindeck of Thresh/Gro for a long time and is warranted in some cases. It's also a fine budget alternative to Pithing Needle.

I'd note that when you're running Dryad, Disenchant > Naturalize; but I generally prefer Naturalize when running Werebear, just to have a good answer to Blood Moon, B2B, etc.

[Cait_Sith]

Honestly I'm shocked that none of you are bashing me for running maindecked Disenchant. Seriously. Who runs maindeck Disenchant?

R/w Vial Goblins.

[Citrus-God]

R/w Vial Goblins.

Angel Stompy.

Anyways, I know you guys hate running Portent with Dryads, but arent Portents better when it comes to card quality? With Portent, it allows you to Chain cantrips, but isnt as fast. But I guess if your going to be playing aggressively, Sleight of Hand is much better.

[Bardo]

[A]ren't Portents better when it comes to card quality?

In the abstract, yes. But in a deck built around tempo, concepts like "card quality" or "card advantage" are deceptively complex, since the deck is more than willing to sacrifice card advantage (or quality) for board superiority, for instance.

Again, I'm not addressing the viability of Portent a whole, I just think it's weak when you're relying on Dryad--who wants you to draw and cast as many spells as possible in your own turn.

[Angel of Despair]

I have been fiddling around with my thresh build a lot over the past couple of weeks. I haven't really been able to get online, but now that I have the chance I'd like to show my results. I will start with my list from sunday.

4 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
2 Breeding Pool (Not tech by the way)
4 Strand
2 Heath
2 Island
1 Plains

4 Swords
4 FoW
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
1 Quirion Dryad
1 Mystic Enforcer
4 Serum Visions
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
2 Portent
2 Predict
2 Mental Note
2 Pithing Needle
3 Meddling Mage
3 Daze

Sideboard

3 Krosun Grip
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Armageddon
2 Jotun Grunt
1 Tivadars Crusade
1 Tividar
1 Meddling Mage
2 Tormod's Crypt

Ok, now on to the winning

Round 1
Tim playing Mono Black "old school" something
This is kind of discouraging. I had tested this new build and it was really good. He is playing Leige of the Pit, which I prevented both times it was presented. Maindeck Withered Wretch put a dent in my thresh plan. He beat me down with zombies 2 out of 3 games. The game that I won was awesome though. I got Dryad turn 2 and turn 3/4 chained cantrips for the win. He scooped when she was a 6/6.
lost 2-1
0-1

Round 2
I play John with a janky combo deck.
He takes game 1 because I found no Land or answers, he beat me with a 1/1 for like 5 turns. Game 2 was all mine. I get Dryad again, but she was a little late. Oh well, I also drew my other singleton Sweet ass Enforcer! BEAT DOWN.
I take game 3 too, this time he killed my Dryad, but I took him down with 2 Mongeese and a Meddling Mage.
Won 2-1
1-1

Round 3
I play Brad with a Red Loam deck.
He was having a bad day. He was 0-2 when he played me. He dropped when I beat him. Game 1 he had one land for three turns and I was dropping creatures all the while. first turn mongoose, second turn Dryad. It was another amazing game where I got everything I needed, Enforcer and all. Game 2 I lost because I was mana screwed again, I had to take damage off of both the Breeding Pools. Game three he got me to 1 life and I still won WITHOUT WORSHIP:smile: Another well placed enforcer and 4/4 dryad.

NOTE: Predict came completely out after this tournament for a 4th counterspell and went back to the 3rd mental note. I missed it a lot. I found that some games I didnt have thresh until I was already winning or losing badly.

So I went into Semi-Finals with a 2-1 record, and ended up playing Bane. We played it out, and I won 2-1. I wont bore you with that though, because he already covered it SOO
On to the Finals

I played against Welder Survival, I really thought I could win this. Game one I lose beause I couldn't. with all the cantrips in this deck draw an answer to Survival or Welder. He Sundering Titans my lands and kills me with it. Game 2 I put a Mage on Survival and a Needle on Welder and win. Game three, I have no Answer to Survival, He plays a Welder, It gets Swordszd, He plays another and I die

I got a type 2 dual land and a great idea for a new deck. stay tuned. its coming to the N&D soon

[Citrus-God]

In the abstract, yes. But in a deck built around tempo, concepts like "card quality" or "card advantage" are deceptively complex, since the deck is more than willing to sacrifice card advantage (or quality) for board superiority, for instance.

Again, I'm not addressing the viability of Portent a whole, I just think it's weak when you're relying on Dryad--who wants you to draw and cast as many spells as possible in your own turn.


I guess that logic does work in a deck like this.

[Bardo]

I guess that logic does work in a deck like this.

Another example of this is Mental Note. At face value, Note appears to be a terrible, terrible card--unfit for anything other than an Odyssey block Threshold/Flashback deck. In other words, it's out of place in Legacy, at best; and really awful, at worst. But in an aggressive tempo deck that would rather win sooner than later, Mental Note is immensely flexible in allowing Threshold going to go into turbo-beatdown mode on turn 3. Again, in the abstract, that seems "nice" but isn't necessarily worth trading off "card quality" for it. But in practice, against a deck like Goblins where Threshold needs to win quickly or not win at all--Mental Note becomes surpisingly attractive. Even against Threshold stronger match-ups like High Tide and IGGy Pop, a little disruption goes a long way, but Threshold's largest threat against these deck is disruption plus its aggresive clock. And facing something like IGGy Pop, I'd much, much rather be swinging for 7 on turn 3 or 4 than 2.

Again, that's another place where the odd logic of "seemingly sub-optimal" cards in this deck is stronger than "abstractly better" cards.

[Citrus-God]

Another example of this is Mental Note. At face value, Note appears to be a terrible, terrible card--unfit for anything other than an Odyssey block Threshold/Flashback deck. In other words, it's out of place in Legacy, at best; and really awful, at worst. But in an aggressive tempo deck that would rather win sooner than later, Mental Note is immensely flexible in allowing Threshold going to go into turbo-beatdown mode on turn 3. Again, in the abstract, that seems "nice" but isn't necessarily worth trading off "card quality" for it. But in practice, against a deck like Goblins where Threshold needs to win quickly or not win at all--Mental Note becomes surpisingly attractive. Even against Threshold stronger match-ups like High Tide and IGGy Pop, a little disruption goes a long way, but Threshold's largest threat against these deck is disruption plus its aggresive clock. And facing something like IGGy Pop, I'd much, much rather be swinging for 7 on turn 3 or 4 than 2.

Again, that's another place where the odd logic of "seemingly sub-optimal" cards in this deck is stronger than "abstractly better" cards.

Actually, I see Mental Note as more of a way for this deck to acheive the Midgame role of this deck much quicker, as it allows the creatures in this deck to start controlling the board. I do however like seeing Mental Note being used against Combo decks, as it pressures them so much that they cant do very much about it, but set off right there.

Shouldn't we say the samething about Portent as well? Of course, you have to play the Control role rather than the Tempo role. I found that Portent wont get you Threshold fast enough, but it can help you get those answers really nicely. Against Goblins, Goblins tends to just trade some of their guys with your guys and take you into midgame, where Dazes become weaker, and Mental Note will be unable to find you additional creatures to add into the board. Goblins does a very good job at trading creatures with you and making sure they win the attrition war. Threshold can easily do the same, but it all depends on the efficientcy of each card and draw they make. Portent does that for you.

Besides, Portent synergizes with Meddling Mage and Mental Note really well. Besides, I see really great promise of Portent being ran side-by-side with Mental Note, as one can help you keep getting Counters and Answers while you go beatdown with Mental Notes. I truely dont see any flaws in those two cards being ran together in the same deck. Portent can also act as a pseudo-lock card, and Meddling Mage can also add on.

Anyways, have you tested Portent before? It has many functions, and if used right, it can easily win you the game. Mr. Nightmare proved it's been doing very well for him, but it seems to be goind down a little.

[Bardo]

Shouldn't we say the samething about Portent as well? Of course, you have to play the Control role rather than the Tempo role. I found that Portent wont get you Threshold fast enough, but it can help you get those answers really nicely.

I'll be honest, whenever I see the word "control," I can't help but read it as "slow." Slow isn't necessarily bad (as in a slow format), but in a really fast format, I think Portent is at odds with rate of development (tempo) of Legacy.


Against Goblins, Goblins tends to just trade some of their guys with your guys and take you into midgame, where Dazes become weaker, and Mental Note will be unable to find you additional creatures to add into the board. Goblins does a very good job at trading creatures with you and making sure they win the attrition war. Threshold can easily do the same, but it all depends on the efficientcy of each card and draw they make. Portent does that for you.

I disagree with you on your assessment of the Goblins match. Goblins will win the attrition war. Ringleader, Incinerator, SGC, Crypt, Vial. All of create an awful lot of card and power advantage and Threshold will most likely lose games that it can't handle Goblins from the start. There are occasions when Threshold will topdeck and resolve a mid-game Tivadar's Crusade (through Wasteland/Port) and Goblins will go on to draw into a land glut, but I wouldn't count on that.

So yeah, Threshold and Goblins will trade 1-for-1 in the early game, but Goblins has inevitability and will eventually win if it isn't forced to lose. That's where I think Mental Note is overwhelming superior, since Tormod's Crypt is often an auto-loss, so you need a way to recover from that and you'll also need something burly to put Goblins on defense in the early game. The best way for Threshold to win is to establish and maintain offensive initiative from the start.


Besides, Portent synergizes with Meddling Mage and Mental Note really well.

These are "gravy plays." That is, cool, but not the reason to play them (like Mental Note + Brainstorm = gravy). Duress and Meddling Mage is an actively strong play; Portent and Meddling Mage seems weak, though it will occassionally give you a good result. And if you don't like your Portent cards, you don't need to Note them away.


I truely dont see any flaws in those two cards being ran together in the same deck. Portent can also act as a pseudo-lock card, and Meddling Mage can also add on.

I agree that there aren't any reason these cards don't interact well, I just don't really agree with your reasoning.


Anyways, have you tested Portent before? It has many functions, and if used right, it can easily win you the game.

Honestly, only a little. I had two in my deck back in the summer before I dismissed them for being "occasionally cool but too slow and not helping me in the matches I needed help." I haven't ran them since.

[Angel of Despair]

I play Portent and MN. I wanted to test out all of the cantrips I could. I did end up having all 3 Portent, Predict, and Mental Note, but It was bad, kinda. I like Portent. It is kind of slow, but it works. i ended up taking out Predict because it was a sitting duck in too many games. Did anyone read my tourney report? bane said that it wasnt showing up for him, so just in case that happened for everyone, try to check it out... thanks.

[Citrus-God]

I'll be honest, whenever I see the word "control," I can't help but read it as "slow." Slow isn't necessarily bad (as in a slow format), but in a really fast format, I think Portent is at odds with rate of development (tempo) of Legacy.

Portent is slow I admit, but they should be cast 1st out of all your cantrips, as they will find you those Dazes, FoWs, Needles, and Removal for the early game. Portent is ther to find you answers, cantrips, and threats. Portent isnt limiting you from playing the Tempo role, but rather supporting it with backed up disruption or additional threats.


I
disagree with you on your assessment of the Goblins match. Goblins will win the attrition war. Ringleader, Incinerator, SGC, Crypt, Vial. All of create an awful lot of card and power advantage and Threshold will most likely lose games that it can't handle Goblins from the start. There are occasions when Threshold will topdeck and resolve a mid-game Tivadar's Crusade (through Wasteland/Port) and Goblins will go on to draw into a land glut, but I wouldn't count on that.

So yeah, Threshold and Goblins will trade 1-for-1 in the early game, but Goblins has inevitability and will eventually win if it isn't forced to lose. That's where I think Mental Note is overwhelming superior, since Tormod's Crypt is often an auto-loss, so you need a way to recover from that and you'll also need something burly to put Goblins on defense in the early game. The best way for Threshold to win is to establish and maintain offensive initiative from the start.


If you counter the right Goblins and force through early enough to make you the beatdown against them, then yes, they do have a clock on their hands. Portent simply gets answers, and makes sure your midgame is in your favor. Sometimes you want those Needles. Adding more cantrips will mazimize your chances of finding those Needles.

I was never really into Tivadar's Crusade, as I like Stifles and Hydroblasts much more, as they arent as much of a strain on your mana base, since LD can seriously wreck your chances of getting those Crusades. I also like the flexibility of those two card choices, as you can side them in against Combo and other forms of Red Deck Wins variants as well!


I agree that there aren't any reason these cards don't interact well, I just don't really agree with your reasoning.


I will honestly admit, those plays dont pop up that often, but I will point out that Portent fills in a few gaps this deck is missing. This deck sometimes draws dead, and the chances of minimizing it is by adding more Cantrips. Portent isnt specifically aimed at helping you play the aggro role (unless you need counter back-up), but to help you through the early game to answer every troublesome threat.

[Bane of the Living]

I cant believe there are still page long ramblings about cantrips. Cant we leave any of that behind in the archeived thresh threads? Its just based off of preference, thats all. If you ask me Mental Note is still the way to go to help ward off yard hate. The rest of the Portent, Predict, Note debate can suck my nut. Thats my preference.

[Citrus-God]

I cant believe there are still page long ramblings about cantrips. Cant we leave any of that behind in the archeived thresh threads? Its just based off of preference, thats all. If you ask me Mental Note is still the way to go to help ward off yard hate. The rest of the Portent, Predict, Note debate can suck my nut. Thats my preference.

Problems with that? This deck is still flawed. You say it's concluded through personal preference. Adding in additional cantrips do change match-ups a lot you know. This deck still has a ton of problems, and the optimal lists are still somewhat undecided.

[Bane of the Living]

Problems with that? This deck is still flawed. You say it's concluded through personal preference. Adding in additional cantrips do change match-ups a lot you know. This deck still has a ton of problems, and the optimal lists are still somewhat undecided.

Look at the history of top 8's page and tell me the deck is flawed. I dont really understand why your saying that. What are you having problems getting the deck to do? Win? If you maybe you need to playtest more. If the problem is hate coming down on the deck then switch to a similar strategy with different weaknesses such as EBA or Gro.

I dont think cramming as many cantrips as possible is the way to go because you inheritly weaken yourself against things like Chalice of the Void even more.

[Citrus-God]

Look at the history of top 8's page and tell me the deck is flawed. I dont really understand why your saying that. What are you having problems getting the deck to do? Win? If you maybe you need to playtest more. If the problem is hate coming down on the deck then switch to a similar strategy with different weaknesses such as EBA or Gro.

I dont think cramming as many cantrips as possible is the way to go because you inheritly weaken yourself against things like Chalice of the Void even more.

What are the problems I have with the deck?

None, I'm just here to support the fact that adding more cantrips into the deck can help the deck's flexibility.

Win?

I win a lot with the deck, thank you very much. I just want to make people realize how good Portent is, and luckily, a small amount of players have agreed with me.

If you want me to look at the history of Top 8s, I see at 4 decks in those Top 8's that dont look janky and run Portent. The reason why I am saying Threshold is flawed is because we have not concluded on a solid optimal build of Thresh at the moment, though we do, all we can do is call them variants. One of my motives here is to convince people that Predict Thresh and Mental Note Thresh are different variants of the deck, and should have two different sections in order to further the development on these variants. You dont see Cron Stax, Uba Stax, and 5c Stax discussed in the same thread?

Chalice of the Void already wrecks this deck. You should just stop trying to make this deck play around it if Chalice resolves, and actually answer the damn card. Bardo suggested Engineered Explosives, and I think that's a pretty damn good card against them. Engineered Explosives can also ensure that you have somewhat of a comeback against Hanni Fish and the like.

[Obfuscate Freely]

I cant believe there are still page long ramblings about cantrips. Cant we leave any of that behind in the archeived thresh threads? Its just based off of preference, thats all. If you ask me Mental Note is still the way to go to help ward off yard hate. The rest of the Portent, Predict, Note debate can suck my nut. Thats my preference.


I dont think cramming as many cantrips as possible is the way to go because you inheritly weaken yourself against things like Chalice of the Void even more.
"Personal preference" isn't really meaningful in Magic. There is an optimal list for any deck in any metagame, and a player's preferences have nothing to do with winning percentages.

What we have here is a debate that is very difficult to resolve due to similarities between the cards involved and the indirectness in which they affect games; this does not mean we should stop discussing it.

I still play Portent and avoid Mental Note, because I think having greater control over the cards I draw wins more games than fast threshold does. It is the nature of this problem that it is difficult to prove this, but my point here is that game win percentage is the sole basis for my card choices. Never should anything so irrelevent as personal "preference" or "playstyle" figure into anyone's reasoning when building a deck.

[Adan]

But playstile or preference DOES play a role in this case.

You for example(you are Alix Hatfield?) always play the build with 2 Enforcers,4 Bears,4 Nimble Geese and 16 Cantrips, 3 Needles etc.

It's more like Control.

I'm fallen for the build Mr. Nightmare piloted to Place 2 at the Mana leak tourney with 4 Mages, 4 Bears, 4 Nimble Geese and 3 Notes (ok, he mentioned he didn't play Predict because he sent them to Rebecca).

But i would say it gives the deck a more aggressive touch.
But both cards suck when they are played randomly, so they both require a cantrip before they are played.

But I also think that the cantrip-question is a littlebit...irrelevant.

Since I read what you wrote beforce about Portent, it is indeed the best Cantrip AFTER Brainstorm, because it reveals you up to 5 cards until the next main phase ( reveal 3, shuffle, upkeep draw, drawphase draw ). This quite useful to know. I think it's the best cantrip you can play in Turn 1, especially when you're seeking a land.

[Bardo]

Its just based off of preference, thats all.

No. There are objectively better configurations than others. The better builds will win more; the worse builds, for a particular metagame, will lose more. That's what this all boils down to.


Look at the history of top 8's page and tell me the deck is flawed. I dont really understand why your saying that.

Just because a deck is doing well, shouldn't give you confidence that it can't do better. That kind of complancency and inertia is why people complain there's no innovation in the format, or that it's stagnant, etc.


"Personal preference" isn't really meaningful in Magic. There is an optimal list for any deck in any metagame, and a player's preferences have nothing to do with winning percentages.

Word.


But playstile or preference DOES play a role in this case.

Again, no. The best players make decisions that they think will enhance their win percentages.


I'm fallen for the build Mr. Nightmare piloted to Place 2 at the Mana leak tourney with 4 Mages, 4 Bears, 4 Nimble Geese and 3 Notes (ok, he mentioned he didn't play Predict because he sent them to Rebecca).

But i would say it gives the deck a more aggressive touch.

Indeed, but again this isn't a "stylistic whimsy," Mr Nightmare's build is constructed with the mind that it's the best build he can run for that metagame.


But I also think that the cantrip-question is a littlebit...irrelevant.

No one is obliged to contribute. If you don't have anything to add, then don't. If you'd like to steer the discussion somewhere else, go right ahead.

[Nightmare]

I'm fallen for the build Mr. Nightmare piloted to Place 2 at the Mana leak tourney with 4 Mages, 4 Bears, 4 Nimble Geese and 3 Notes (ok, he mentioned he didn't play Predict because he sent them to Rebecca).While I may have played using Predict had I had mine at the time, the ultimate decision to run Mental Note was definately not based on personal preference. This was the first tournament when Coldsnap was legal, and Jotun Grunt made Mental Note worth running. Even if I had run Predict instead, I still felt running 14 cantrips was correct, and that MD Meddling Mage was correct in that meta. These aren't deciions made arbitrarily, they're made with the intent of playing the best deck to win a tournament with.

[Bane of the Living]

Ok well should we discuss Predict vs Mental Note in the post Coldsnap world then? Here's my diagnostic opinion.

1) Grunty
Jotun Grunt is out there in maindecks now. Aside from the common Tormod's Crypt in sideboards you now have to hold reserve means of thresh to regain the game. Holding a fetchland and a note goes along way getting you back into the game vs this hate.

2) Setup
Aside from incredible mising, Predict wont draw you 2 cards unless you setup with another cantrip. Do you really want to pay 2 to mill one and draw one? This turns the card into a FoW friend or something to clutch in hand until the random cantrip comes along to help. Mental Note on the other hand always does what its suppose to in no regards to what else has been played or if you have the consecutive mana/turns to setup. It always gets you half way to thresh and also replaces itself.

3) Speed
This might be a meta choice but as mentioned above there are times when you want white thresh to play either a more controlish or aggro role. I think speed is of the essence when dealing with a goblin heavy metagame. We all know gobs isnt the best match in the world and its only gotten worse since Ib was printed (incase you guys havent playtested that much) You need to grab the game by the balls very early against gobs to get the win. That requires faster threshold. Faster threshold? Note.

4) Hatred
Like I already mentioned, the more cards you add that just draw cards, the more your deck does nothing but draw cards. Whats the use of cantriping into cantrips when you dont reach important spells. When you condense the number of threats in the deck for cantrips you open yourself up more to Cranial Extraction, Haunting Echoes, Chalice of the Void, Meddling Mage, and Cabal Therapy. Adding as many 1cc spells as you can fit is bad against chalice, and whether or not the deck already has problems with it doesnt mean you should focus on making that worse.

These are reasons in my personal opinion, in regards to endless playtesting against threshold. This is not to say Portent is a strong card or not because we've used it on and off, but imo you need Mental Note in at least a meta like mine.

The numbers the deck has put up are based on the contention of current builds and players. It doesnt have any problems that I can see. Im not saying we should stifle discussion on improving the deck but I think we've bantered enough over the viability of either option.

[AnwarA101]

4) Hatred
Like I already mentioned, the more cards you add that just draw cards, the more your deck does nothing but draw cards. Whats the use of cantriping into cantrips when you dont reach important spells. When you condense the number of threats in the deck for cantrips you open yourself up more to Cranial Extraction, Haunting Echoes, Chalice of the Void, Meddling Mage, and Cabal Therapy. Adding as many 1cc spells as you can fit is bad against chalice, and whether or not the deck already has problems with it doesnt mean you should focus on making that worse.


I can't agree with this at all. Having too many draw spells in Thresh is one of the best situations not the worst. It means that you will find in a very short amount of time the card you are looking for. It means you don't have to worry about Threshold because you will naturally generate it without having to resort to Mental Note. I've lost with Thresh, but rarely because I drew too many draw spells.

[Bane of the Living]

I can't agree with this at all. Having too many draw spells in Thresh is one of the best situations not the worst. It means that you will find in a very short amount of time the card you are looking for. It means you don't have to worry about Threshold because you will naturally generate it without having to resort to Mental Note. I've lost with Thresh, but rarely because I drew too many draw spells.

I didnt really state what certain amount was too many. Obviously you cant get the best of both worlds. Some numbers of Predicts and Portents in addition to the normal 8 cantrips is alot of card draw. Mental Note being cantrips 9-12 isnt as much card draw. Some people try to fit 16 1cc cantrips, ect. All Im saying is that adding cantrips isnt necessarily the best way to improve an already impressive deck. Especially when fightng forms of hate that target your mana curve.

[Citrus-God]

I didnt really state what certain amount was too many. Obviously you cant get the best of both worlds. Some numbers of Predicts and Portents in addition to the normal 8 cantrips is alot of card draw. Mental Note being cantrips 9-12 isnt as much card draw. Some people try to fit 16 1cc cantrips, ect. All Im saying is that adding cantrips isnt necessarily the best way to improve an already impressive deck. Especially when fitting forms of hate that target your mana curve.

Actually... your wrong. Running more cantrips give you stronger access to your SB, especially if you run 1-2 copies of each card. Running more Cantrips makes you less reliant on Mage in the Combo match up. 16 Cantrips give you a strong card selection. Chalice of the Void already kills your deck. You cant play Mental Note, you can play Serum Visions, you cant play your Brainstorms, you cant play your Geese, and you cant play your Swords. Adding more cantrips give you a better match-up against Goblins. In midgame when you have a Mental Note sitting there ready to pitch to FoW, whereas, with a Portent, you can just play it to find more answers. Also, once you get the cantrip chain going, you can easily set-up Predicts very consistently. Running more Cantrips also help you recover you mana base, or replace lands in your mana base.

[Citrus-God]

I should have answered these questions. I guess debating makes development go further.



Ok well should we discuss Predict vs Mental Note in the post Coldsnap world then? Here's my diagnostic opinion.

1) Grunty
Jotun Grunt is out there in maindecks now. Aside from the common Tormod's Crypt in sideboards you now have to hold reserve means of thresh to regain the game. Holding a fetchland and a note goes along way getting you back into the game vs this hate.


So can a Chain of Cantrips. I have faced Grunt many times, and whenever they make an attempt to strip me of Thresh, they're making my Card Quality much better, as well as a way for me to find more lands, cantrips, men, and answers. They take Threshold away from me, I play a couple cantrips and a Predict.




2) Setup
Aside from incredible mising, Predict wont draw you 2 cards unless you setup with another cantrip. Do you really want to pay 2 to mill one and draw one? This turns the card into a FoW friend or something to clutch in hand until the random cantrip comes along to help. Mental Note on the other hand always does what its suppose to in no regards to what else has been played or if you have the consecutive mana/turns to setup. It always gets you half way to thresh and also replaces itself.


What?? Since when has Mental Note found you an answer? Predict is, I admit a FoW friend, but only if you make it dead by ending your chain of cantrips. When this deck creates a chain of cantrips, Predict helps it keep going.




3) Speed
This might be a meta choice but as mentioned above there are times when you want white thresh to play either a more controlish or aggro role. I think speed is of the essence when dealing with a goblin heavy metagame. We all know gobs isnt the best match in the world and its only gotten worse since Ib was printed (incase you guys havent playtested that much) You need to grab the game by the balls very early against gobs to get the win. That requires faster threshold. Faster threshold? Note.


Well, let's see. Goblins can just trade some guys with you, and make sure you dont kill them. Playing Mental Note is another way for you to stop finding answers, and just swing with a couple guys? Look, like I said, Goblins has an endless chain of Goblins, if you play Mental Note, your chain ends there, and then you will have trouble finding answers to things like Ringleader. Playing Portent and Predict just means you can still find answers to Goblins, through late game if they make some rediculous topdeck.




4) Hatred
Like I already mentioned, the more cards you add that just draw cards, the more your deck does nothing but draw cards. Whats the use of cantriping into cantrips when you dont reach important spells. When you condense the number of threats in the deck for cantrips you open yourself up more to Cranial Extraction, Haunting Echoes, Chalice of the Void, Meddling Mage, and Cabal Therapy. Adding as many 1cc spells as you can fit is bad against chalice, and whether or not the deck already has problems with it doesnt mean you should focus on making that worse.


Wait... Cantripping into more cantrips does do something. The Predict build has only 16 Cantrips, and that isnt a lot. Would you call a Type 1 deck like Meandeck Gifts pointless if all it does is improve Card Quality? Let's see, Meandeck Gifts runs 4 Brainstorms, 4 Merchant Scroll, 1 Demonic Tutor, 1 Mystical Tutor, 4 Gifts Ungiven, Burning Wish, and 1 Fact or Fiction. That's 15 cards that improve card quality, and you call that deck useless? It gets everything it needs, and Tutors for Win Conditions as well as answers to protect it's win conditions. That's exactly what Portent and Predict does if you throw it into the mix. i know Cantrips arent Tutors, but they cansomewhat be compared.

[Solpugid]

I don't want to get this site (or any others) in trouble, so I thought I'd ask before I bring up any discussion:

Are we allowed to discuss rumored/spoiled cards on this site? How about provide links to sites with spoiler info?

[Nightmare]

I don't want to get this site (or any others) in trouble, so I thought I'd ask before I bring up any discussion:

Are we allowed to discuss rumored/spoiled cards on this site? How about provide links to sites with spoiler info?Go ahead.

[Solpugid]

http://www.magiccorporation.com/gathering-news-994-exclu-nouvelles-cartes-chaos-planaire.html

The first card on that page is a functional reprint of funeral charm, but in blue. That is, it can give a creature +2/-1, islandwalk, or force a discard at instant speed.

Now some of you may know that I've been looking for a second 1cc removal spell for this deck that would not be dead against solidarity (thus condemn is out). When I saw this card, I got pretty excited. It kills lackey and confidant, allows one of our creatures to hit for an extra 2, gives an enforcer or bear islandwalk in the mirror to plow through a clogged board, or forces a discard if you have nothing better to do with the card (in other words, it has some use against combo). This, plus it can be pitched to force of will. Is it worth it? I know I'll be testing it.

The other rumor going around that has me excited, for the same reason, is that of a white shock. W: 2 damage to target creature or player, instant speed. I personally would run this in a second as my second removal spell, but as of yet it's still a rumor.

So, do any of you think either of those cards will find a home here?

[Citrus-God]

http://www.magiccorporation.com/gathering-news-994-exclu-nouvelles-cartes-chaos-planaire.html

The first card on that page is a functional reprint of funeral charm, but in blue. That is, it can give a creature +2/-1, islandwalk, or force a discard at instant speed.

Now some of you may know that I've been looking for a second 1cc removal spell for this deck that would not be dead against solidarity (thus condemn is out). When I saw this card, I got pretty excited. It kills lackey and confidant, allows one of our creatures to hit for an extra 2, gives an enforcer or bear islandwalk in the mirror to plow through a clogged board, or forces a discard if you have nothing better to do with the card (in other words, it has some use against combo). This, plus it can be pitched to force of will. Is it worth it? I know I'll be testing it.

The other rumor going around that has me excited, for the same reason, is that of a white shock. W: 2 damage to target creature or player, instant speed. I personally would run this in a second as my second removal spell, but as of yet it's still a rumor.

So, do any of you think either of those cards will find a home here?

I admit, it's pretty cool, but it's going to be pretty dead in certain cases, such which is the reason why we run only 4 Copies of Swords to Plowshares, which functions differently from Burn, but the Discard effect of that Charm sounds uber sexy in this deck, and it can snab something on Draw step as well.

[AnwarA101]

Has anyone done any testing for the mirror with Loaming Shaman or Jotun Grunt? I know that Mad Zur used both in his sideboard for the D4D, but I don't think that he has tested the mirror post-board with either of these two creatures. Jotun Grunt seems better early at preventing Threshold and Loaming Shaman looks better later when you can crypt your opponent after Threshold, but what strategy should you adopt or which one should you run or are both optimal?

[Parcher]

From my own experience, I have found that 3 Shaman in the board has been enough for the mirror unless your opponent is running them as well.

A sucessfully cast Shaman not only makes him larger than all of your opponent's creatures, he makes it impossible for them to maintain a Grunt in play, if that is their SB card. You lose one or two points in the damage race to gains inevitability. More often than not, the mirror does come down to a race.

The casting cost is not a real factor, as Grunt cannot be maintained early, and you don't want to play Shaman early.

The larger body on Grunt does not even come close to making up for the fact that he will die on his own. His effect is semi-balanced. That is, disregarding Shaman, your opponent will often eat his own graveyard to gain a percieved damage advantage with Grunt. If he is removed afterwards, you have just gained a huge Tempo advantage. Shaman has no such qualifier on his ability.

An odd circumstantial advantage of Shaman is his color cost. It rarely comes up, but White is the least available color to Threshold. Being able to cast Shaman, while maintaining a W open for Swords is another small advantage over Grunt when in a damage race.

This is all strictly based on the mirror. Grunt may be far superior against other decks.

[Citrus-God]

Personally, I love the Shamans right now if they're being ran alongside with the Grunts. The fact that these creatures being non-reliant on the graveyard has made them into strong creatures to side in the mirror. Because I run both Shaman and Grunt, I dont seem to care if they play Tormod's Crypt on me 4 times, because I have Shaman and Grunt. I end up ignoring what my opponents are doing usually. If it's a fight over the graveyard, I guess I won since I'm not reliant on it.

I also side them in against Hanni Fish because I need additional creatures. I have learned that if you can deal some damage with some Grunts and Shamans before you have Threshold, you can easily win against Fish in the midgame. However, this match-up is still quite stale.

Personally, I would keep the 3/2/1 configuration. I know the Hatfield's havent tested those 5 Grave hosers much, but they serve different functions in many match-ups. Call me crazy, but I also side in Grunts and Shamans against decks like Red Death, Faerie Stompy, and Affinity. I know you would call me crazy, but I need creatures for board control, and making sure I have the most dominant creatures in the red zone.

[Bane of the Living]

Venarian Glimmer XU

Instant
Target player reveals his hand. Choose a nonland card with converted manacost X or less. That player discards this card.

Just wanted to bring this card up here since its a cheap instant that pitches to FoW and can do stuff like nab Jotun Grunts or get nab Tormod's for just U. Seeing your opponent hand is tech when you play Meddling Mage. It also seems hot for the mirror match so you can have Goose superiority.

[Obfuscate Freely]

Venarian Glimmer XU

Instant
Target player reveals his hand. Choose a nonland card with converted manacost X or less. That player discards this card.

Just wanted to bring this card up here since its a cheap instant that pitches to FoW and can do stuff like nab Jotun Grunts or get nab Tormod's for just U. Seeing your opponent hand is tech when you play Meddling Mage. It also seems hot for the mirror match so you can have Goose superiority.
How can you call that cheap? It costs 2-4 mana to get rid of even the cheapest spells, and it will always cost more mana than the card it trades with (not that the opponent had to actually play that spell in the first place). It also has a tremendous potential to completely whiff.

This card is considerably worse than Counterspell in all but the most specialized situations, and we aren't maxed out on those yet. No thanks.

[Happy Gilmore]

I need to ask for help from the grow playing community. I give up, I can't find a way to beat goblins post board. here is why:

background

Goblin deck specifics:

3x SGC, 1x Ib, 1x Tinkerer, mono red, 23 lands (4 waste 4 port, no fetches)

Grow list:

4x Bear
4x Goose
2x Enforcer

4x Predict
4x Portent
4x Serum Visions
4x Brainstorm

3x Counterspell
3x Daze
4x FoW

4x Swords
3x Needle

4x Tundra
3x Trop
3x heath
2x Delta
2x Strand
1x Forest
2x Island

All games were post board. We tried multiple boarding strategies for grow but boarded the same way with goblins for the two ten game sets we played over the weekend.

Goblins:
-4 Fanatic
-3 Gempalm
+4 Chalice
+3 Crypt

Grow:
The first five games were played with only a 6 card boarding strategy. Taking out 2 enforcer, 1 counterspell, 1 Serum Visions, 2 Portent. Bringing in 3 Stifle and 3 BEB.

4-1 in Goblins favor

We then switched the three Needles for three Naturalize in an attempt to answer both Chalice and Aether Vial at the same time.

4-1 in Goblins favor (however the games were much closer)

Then on Sunday (after that interception touchdown for the colts) we did another ten game set using this sideboard:


2x Naturalize
2x EE
1x Enforcer
2x Nantuko Monestary
3x Stifle
3x BEB
2x Meddling Mage

+ 3 Stifle, 3 BEB, 2 EE, 1 Naturalize
- 2 Enforcer, 1 Counterspell, 3 Needle, 2 Predict, 1 Serum Visions

The resulting record was 8-2 in Goblins favor. And I don't know what to do about it. What seems to happen is you never have the right answer at the right time. For instance, you can answer the SGC tokens by Stifle but you cant stop his ability, you can kill Chalice but you can never find another answer to the Vial played right after. You draw Counters when all you need is a couple of draw spells and a threat. One for one with Goblins will not win you the game. And I only remember two games where Tividar's Crusade would have been castable if I had it.

So...

I need some help. Right now I can't think of anything that can turn this around, and after this last weekend I am too defeated to try the more risky options such as Worship, Crusade, Dueling Grounds, etc.

And plz don't just throw ideas out there. I need numbers, match results, hard core testing with ten game sets and alternating. If anyone has already found an efficient way to anwer this Goblin SB I am all ears.

(And thanks to Anwar101, Obfuscate Freely, and Mad Zur for piloting the decks and helping me test this matchup.)

[Hanni]

Well, one major hole I see is that you only run 8 threats post board with none of them having evasion. You cannot play defense for very long with only 8 threats (they will outnumber you) and you cannot push damage into the red zone without evasion (they will chump block you). Considering sideboarding in additional threats, such as Meddling Mage. I realize that Meddling Mage is fairly bad in the Goblins matchup but it gives you the ability to block everything but Piledriver (to help play defense) and if you answer Vial, it can prevent problematic Goblins from entering play. I'd actually recommend keeping the Mystic Enforcer, even through Port/Waste... if you can fetch basics accordingly, this creature will win you the matchup if your not too far behind. 6/6 flying is a 4 turn clock, 3 if you can manage to push 2 damage through somehow.

I also think that you shouldn't have huge problems casting Tivadar's. If you can manage to fetch basics accordingly, you should be able to cast this. They will not leave Ports open every turn every game and one resolves Tivadar's can be game winning if you have enough aggro in play.

I think Naturalize over Needle is a strong option.

I realize this is probably wayyy out there but... have you considered trying Jitte? I know it won't attach to Mongoose so it's more often going to be dead but... the deck needs a form of virtual card advantage to beat Goblins and a Werebear or Mage with Jitte seems fairly strong. Again, I realize this is way out there but the virtual advantage generated by Jitte seems fairly strong.

Another option is to try a 4c build with Fire//Ice and SB Pyroclasm. Against Goblins, you'll want to fetch your basic Island / Forest combo and leave uncracked fetchlands to grab Volcanic Islands. Both of these provide greater than 1-for-1 card advantage, which Thresh must be able to do in order to deal with Goblins. Obviously, you will stay away from grabbing white mana sources unless you need an StP for a 1st turn Lackey.

Another option could be Armageddon. If you can manage to deal with Vial and cast this, you should be able to stop the Goblin opponent from doing much. Goblins is a very mana hungry deck and cutting them off of mana sources will oftentimes wreck them. Even Winter Orb could be a solid option against them if you can deal with their Vial.

I have not testing the Goblins matchup extensively with UGw Threshold. My suggestions may be terrible but I think at least a few of those options may be worth testing at the very least.

If anything, you could always play UGr Threshold if Goblins is a dominating force in your meta. It's not as strong against UGw Thresh but at least the Goblins matchup is solid. If you board FtK's and Loaming Shaman's, you should be able to do alright against UGw (I think).

I hope some of this is actually helpful.

[Happy Gilmore]

All that sounds great but what needs to be done is hard testing not theorycaft.

Jitte is equipable to only 4 creatures in the deck. 8 threats have never been a problem post board. As I said, only 2 in 10 games gave me an oportuninty to use Crusade if I had it, and I might not have lived anyway because I would not have been able to counter somthing with BEB (the card it would replace). I haven't tested any of the other things you mentioned but I know for a fact that Meddling Mage is horrible against goblins. Although I have considered leaving in the Mystic Enforcers against goblins, but I don't know what else to take out of the deck for them.

hmm...I think if I get the courage next week I am going to try -1 counterspell -2 Predict -1 Serum Visions, -1 Pithing needle +2 naturalize +3 BEB. Leaving in the Enforcers.

As for Playing UGR, I have been doing that the last 2 weeks at my local tournament due to the the high number of goblins and I have top 4'd both times. Ancient grudge is another good reason to run red over white imo.

[Hanni]

I was just trying to give you some ideas that might help, since that's what the forums are for. I don't have significant testing data against Goblins but I primarily play aggro/control decks so I was speaking from that perspective. I know that virtual card advantage and evasive fat are 2 important elements to encorporate for winning the Goblins matchup. I still think Tivadar's Crusade is still your strongest option.

[Happy Gilmore]

I was just trying to give you some ideas that might help, since that's what the forums are for. I don't have significant testing data against Goblins but I primarily play aggro/control decks so I was speaking from that perspective. I know that virtual card advantage and evasive fat are 2 important elements to encorporate for winning the Goblins matchup. I still think Tivadar's Crusade is still your strongest option.

I appoligize if I came off condescending. I only want to find something I can put my faith in so I can be more confident about the matchup. You might very well be right about the the threats. I know that when I play UGR I in fact have 12 threats post board because they can't let themselves get within bolt range. So maybe UGW needs to keep in the Enforcers, who knows.

Once again i'm sorry if I sounded like a know it all. Its a bad look for me to be sure. I appriciate the perspective and it does give me some things to think about.

[Bardo]

Yeah, it's a pretty grim battle for U/G/w Thresh. I feel confindant against bad players with shitty builds, but good players with good builds is pretty much a rout.

The last time I tried this exercise (here (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/13386.html) and here (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/13464.html)), this was the final score:

Preboard
Goblins plays: 4-1 (Goblins - Threshold)
Threshold playes: 2-3 (Goblins - Threshold)

Postboard
Goblins plays: 4-1 (Goblins - Threshold)
Threshold plays: 3-2 (Goblins - Threshold)

Final score: 13-7 Goblins wins.

I summed up my experience in this article (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/13464.html), at the very end, under the heading "How and Why Threshold Loses to Goblins."

In short:

- AEther Vial
- Goblin Ringleader
- Tormod's Crypt
- Way, way too many guys

It doesn't help that Threshold's best cards are proactive (Needle, Daze, BEB) which depend on certain conditions for them to be good. Whereas Goblins keeps posing this question: "Deal with this and lose. Now this. How about this?" It's pretty grizzly.

The one thing I disagree with boarding out is Mystic Enforcer. I know it's counterintuitive, in fact I'm already plotting a reply, but Enforcer is a surprising champ in the match. As Hanni mentions or at least implies, if you don't have anything evasive, you're forced to win quickly with your ground-pounders, but if Thresh stall and is dragged into the mid/late game (perhaps from an untimely activation of Tormod's Crytpt), it will most likely lose without something that flies. There are just too many guys to handle, Ringleader and SGC will shit all over your face, and the game is just going to go downhill. Enforcer at least gives you hope that you can win a game you should otherwise lose.

From my games with Machinus, Enfocer probably accounted for half of my wins.


If anything, you could always play UGr Threshold if Goblins is a dominating force in your meta.

.

[Happy Gilmore]

Yeah, it's a pretty grim battle for U/G/w Thresh. I feel confindant against bad players with shitty builds, but good players with good builds is pretty much a rout.

The last time I tried this exercise (here (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/13386.html) and here (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/13464.html)), this was the final score:

Preboard
Goblins plays: 4-1 (Goblins - Threshold)
Threshold playes: 2-3 (Goblins - Threshold)

Postboard
Goblins plays: 4-1 (Goblins - Threshold)
Threshold plays: 3-2 (Goblins - Threshold)

Final score: 13-7 Goblins wins.

I summed up my experience in this article (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/13464.html), at the very end, under the heading "How and Why Threshold Loses to Goblins."

In short:

- AEther Vial
- Goblin Ringleader
- Tormod's Crypt
- Way, way too many guys

It doesn't help that Threshold's best cards are proactive (Needle, Daze, BEB) which depend on certain conditions for them to be good. Whereas Goblins keeps posing this question: "Deal with this and lose. Now this. How about this?" It's pretty grizzly.

The one thing I disagree with boarding out is Mystic Enforcer. I know it's counterintuitive, in fact I'm already plotting a reply, but Enforcer is a surprising champ in the match. As Hanni mentions or at least implies, if you don't have anything evasive, you're forced to win quickly with your ground-pounders, but if Thresh stall and is dragged into the mid/late game (perhaps from an untimely activation of Tormod's Crytpt), it will most likely lose without something that flies. There are just too many guys to handle, Ringleader and SGC will shit all over your face, and the game is just going to go downhill. Enforcer at least gives you hope that you can win a game you should otherwise lose.

From my games with Machinus, Enfocer probably accounted for half of my wins.



.

Interesting...

I will def. give it a try and post with the results. It might explain why I have been doing so good with UGR, Bolt is my reach, my enforcer so to speak. And its even worse for goblins when its uncounterable damage at instant speed.

What was Machinus boarding in? Was he going with the 3crypt4Chalice plan? That tends to give grow fits in ways I can't effectively verbalize.

[Eldariel]

You have 7 slots dedicated to Goblins anyways, how about an 8-Blast plan? Early on, Blasts are removal and midgame, counterspells for those unwelcome Ringleaders, Siege-Gang Commanders, and removal for those Tinkerers threatening your Needles. Spot removal won't win the MU, but I'd imagine countering their card advantage sources would be some good. On the other hand, I guess the Chalice-plan does present issues in that, you need counters/removal available for Chalice and Vial with the constant danger of Tormod's Crypt looming about.

[Solpugid]

I haven't done exact testing in a control environment, but I've played the matchup enough to understand the fundamentals. I would also argue that enforcer needs to stay in. I've never been a fan of crusade, though, if only because it forces you to play suboptimally in other areas in order to achieve WW. I run 4 BEB in my board, which helps a lot as you must know. Additionally, I run 3 maindeck stifle (instead of needle) and this has worked very well for stopping ringleader, wasteland (unlike needle, they don't see it coming until they've lost a land), siege-gang and matron, and fetches if they run them.

But anyway, my board plan is usually:

-2 predict
-1 portent
-1 Counterspell
-2 condemn

+4 BEB
+2 Krosan grip

This gives me 3 stifle, 4 swords, 4 BEB, 2 grip, 3 daze, 2 counterspell, and 4 FoW. If you somehow won the first game, one daze can be taken out in place of condemn or portent.

I agree that this match up is tough, but I have done decently with that setup. The boarding answers a lot of problems, such as BEB in place of the narrow condemn and krosan grip in place of a few cantrips; to answer chalice, crypt, vial, etc. However, I must point out that I've played against builds with fetchlands, which make stifle better. But even without fetches stifle is great for tormod's crypt and the goblins mentioned above.

I hope some of this helped you out.

[Parcher]

I actually stopped running Blasts because of Chalice. I run one Basic Plains to try to make Tivadar's possible. Blasts cannot stop a Chalice, nor can they be played after one resolves. They can only kill Vial'ed creatures, and that doesn't help much with Piledriver or Ringleader.

My SB plan:

+3 Tivadar's Crusade, +2 Naturalize, + 2 Stifle.

-4 Daze, -1 Predict, -1 Portent, -1 Mystic Enforcer.

I run three Enforcers and 2 Needles main deck.

The reason why is this. Daze is dead after turn three against Goblins more often than not. Your best spells against Goblins cost three and four respectively. They will take every opportunity to mess with your manabase, so why help them? Unless they drop a first turn Vial, a Wasteland on turn two or three hurts them as much as you. You still have Force for a turn one Vial, and Plow as well if a Lackey appears.

Without it's ACC, Daze is awful. The fact that you will most often be on the play in Game 2 somewhat mitigates this, but it doesn't change the fact that it adds a turn before you can cast Tivadar's or Enforcer. Both gamebreakers in this matchup. I use cantrips early to get land and/or Tivadar's and Enforcer. Then just play uncracked Fetchlands until I have the appropriate mana. With one one Island and one other land, you can Counterspell, and cast either Swords or creatures. Stifle can slow the early bleeding.

In the case they get an early Port, you have to Needle it. But most often Tivadar's will swing the tempo back in your favor even if they have gotten out quickly. Again, Vial is the biggest enemy in this case. Otherwise they are just stalling, as you should keep dropping land. If you are unable to counter it do to the removal of Daze, you still have Naturalize, Needle, and Stifle to help through the first four turns.

[Happy Gilmore]

I actually stopped running Blasts because of Chalice. I run one Basic Plains to try to make Tivadar's possible. Blasts cannot stop a Chalice, nor can they be played after one resolves. They can only kill Vial'ed creatures, and that doesn't help much with Piledriver or Ringleader.

My SB plan:

+3 Tivadar's Crusade, +2 Naturalize, + 2 Stifle.

-4 Daze, -1 Predict, -1 Portent, -1 Mystic Enforcer.

I run three Enforcers and 2 Needles main deck.

The reason why is this. Daze is dead after turn three against Goblins more often than not. Your best spells against Goblins cost three and four respectively. They will take every opportunity to mess with your manabase, so why help them? Unless they drop a first turn Vial, a Wasteland on turn two or three hurts them as much as you. You still have Force for a turn one Vial, and Plow as well if a Lackey appears.

Without it's ACC, Daze is awful. The fact that you will most often be on the play in Game 2 somewhat mitigates this, but it doesn't change the fact that it adds a turn before you can cast Tivadar's or Enforcer. Both gamebreakers in this matchup. I use cantrips early to get land and/or Tivadar's and Enforcer. Then just play uncracked Fetchlands until I have the appropriate mana. With one one Island and one other land, you can Counterspell, and cast either Swords or creatures. Stifle can slow the early bleeding.

In the case they get an early Port, you have to Needle it. But most often Tivadar's will swing the tempo back in your favor even if they have gotten out quickly. Again, Vial is the biggest enemy in this case. Otherwise they are just stalling, as you should keep dropping land. If you are unable to counter it do to the removal of Daze, you still have Naturalize, Needle, and Stifle to help through the first four turns.

I like your strategy regarding what you bring in, but I think your boarding out strategy is questionable. assuming you have 4 daze, 2 cs?, 3 enforcer, and 3 needle? I would board out 1 Daze, 1 Counterspell (Daze is going to be better than CS when you on the play and it actually makes it easier to resolve crusade vs. port), 1 Enforcer, 1 needle, 2 Predict, 1 Serum Visions (trust me Portent is better as your 4 of post board).

Which brings me to another point non-related to the goblin matchup. If your only running one set of cantrips in addition to Brainstorm I feel that Portent is better than Serum Visions is every way. At first I was worried about drawing them in multiples, but after a couple games where I drew three Portents and in one turn played them all (Using one shuffle of a Portent, and one fetch) to sculpt a near perfect hand durring my opponents upkeep. The card is just plain amazing.

[Parcher]

Actually I run the Hatfield version with one change: +1 Counterspell, -1 Needle. So 3 and 2, not the other way 'round.

I agree that Daze is better than Counterspell on the play, but that doesn't change the fact that it hinders you casting your two most important spells. And it's still only better until turn four. I'll almost never name Wasteland with a Needle, so I expect to get one land Wasted during the course of the game. What I attempt to do is only give them Tropical as a target. Use it once to get your first creature out, then save Fetches to get a Plains, and then a Tundra during your main phase. I run 4 Strands and 3 Heath to help in this.

Daze only helps against Port if 1) They have a Vial, or 2) Your opponnent is a moron. You get the extra White mana at the cost of a Blue, as they will never have a spell during your upkeep. It also means that there's two mana they did not spend reducing your life total. If it does come up, either your opponent tapped the wrong land, or you are still held back a turn by losing the generic third or fourth mana you would need.

The whole Portent vs. Visions is just an auto-pilot thing in my boarding. I'll try reversing this against Goblins to see if I can make it work better.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Your manabase is built as much on the back of your cantrips as your actual lands. Considering that you're then bringing in Crusades against a deck that's already targeting your mana, why would you ever side out more cantrips?

[Parcher]

Good point.

The problem then becomes relative power of the remaining cards. I run sixteen cantrips, which is at the higher end of the spectrum by most standards. I only side out two.

The cards then brought in for them must have enough of an in-game effect on their own to warrant the replacement.

Crusade is obvious. An argument to it's color restrictions is valid, and warranted, but not to it's power.

Naturalize is a necessary evil. Chalice of the Void invalidates half our deck. It can also get rid of a Vial, which becomes more relevant now with the popularity of Tinkerer.

Stifle is a Tempo boost, which is well within Threshold's bailiwick.

I feel with knowledege, experience, and the correct mana ratio, the loss of only two cantrips is more than made up for in the powerful effects they are replaced with.

[Bane of the Living]

If the deck can make the stretch for WW in Crusade could it simply play Tivadar? In my rather short experience against him I find him much better. He pulls the Silver Knight role of slaying a gob a turn but he can also wear Jitte if its something you want to try. Both these options keep you away from Tormods Crypt and Chalice of the Void. Having Crusade change to Tivadar will up your threat count in a very out numbered matchup.

[thefreakaccident]

The loss of Cantrips in this scenario is an acceptable loss due to the bomb you are now putting in the board. I play a build with 14 cantrips (few less than your build), but the need of the board clearing power of Crusade completely counteracts the loss of 2-3 of your cantrips. I would hate to not board crusade in for fear that I would not have enough cantrips (crusade looks a lot better than a draw spell when your opp. has a but load of gobbies on board). This is simply my opinion and people can openly disagree, but Crusade is necessary and there really isn't much else to board out besides the draw spells anyways.

[thefreakaccident]

I've tested Tivdar, he is devastating to your opp. plans of overrunning you, but is merely another obstacle similar to your mongeese, they just have to swing in for more. Crusade on the other hand slays all their threats, doesn't just give them a hurdle in the middle of their sprint. (Tivdar is the Hurdle and crusade is a f#&$ing wall!!).

[Bardo]

While I haven't tested Tivadar himself, I've tested his Crusade considerably and have found it lacking, surprisingly. Basically, hitting 1WW in your main phase is a bitch. Yes, I know you can get tricky/patient with your fetchlands and all, but Goblins puts Threshold under a ton of pressure and rarely has the luxury of leaving lands unused. And in those cases when the stars align perfectly and you get the damn thing off, it still guarantees nothing. I've played many games where I still lost after resolving T Crusade.

Ringleader and SGC are champs in salvaging Goblins' game.

[Parcher]

No offence Dan, but you play a different version of Threshold than what most are referring to.

That doesn't mean you are wrong, in fact I know Jesse Hatfield recently eschewed Crusade for more Stifles and BEBs.

The problem I have found is that more recently, every Goblins deck is packing Chalice. Chalice not only inherently disrupts Threshold's entire gameplan, the problem is exacerbated when your sideboard cards are also nullified by it. Make all the arguments you like about countering it, the fact is with the amount of significant threats Goblins can drop turns 2-5, it can get through.

The reason I sideboard this way is to maintain my gameplan if this happens. It also makes Goblins miss up to a full turn of dropping threats. This more than offsets the turn you may have to wait to cast Crusade.

Back to my original point, you admit freely that Mental Note gives no card selection; Neither in getting to your sideboard cards, nor in filtering to the lands you need. Add to this the power of Predict in actually giving Threshold some form of card advantage, and Crusade is looking at getting played by two very different decks.

[Citrus-God]

I need to ask for help from the grow playing community. I give up, I can't find a way to beat goblins post board. here is why:

background

Goblin deck specifics:

3x SGC, 1x Ib, 1x Tinkerer, mono red, 23 lands (4 waste 4 port, no fetches)

Grow list:

4x Bear
4x Goose
2x Enforcer

4x Predict
4x Portent
4x Serum Visions
4x Brainstorm

3x Counterspell
3x Daze
4x FoW

4x Swords
3x Needle

4x Tundra
3x Trop
3x heath
2x Delta
2x Strand
1x Forest
2x Island

All games were post board. We tried multiple boarding strategies for grow but boarded the same way with goblins for the two ten game sets we played over the weekend.

Goblins:
-4 Fanatic
-3 Gempalm
+4 Chalice
+3 Crypt

Grow:
The first five games were played with only a 6 card boarding strategy. Taking out 2 enforcer, 1 counterspell, 1 Serum Visions, 2 Portent. Bringing in 3 Stifle and 3 BEB.

4-1 in Goblins favor

We then switched the three Needles for three Naturalize in an attempt to answer both Chalice and Aether Vial at the same time.

4-1 in Goblins favor (however the games were much closer)

Then on Sunday (after that interception touchdown for the colts) we did another ten game set using this sideboard:


2x Naturalize
2x EE
1x Enforcer
2x Nantuko Monestary
3x Stifle
3x BEB
2x Meddling Mage

+ 3 Stifle, 3 BEB, 2 EE, 1 Naturalize
- 2 Enforcer, 1 Counterspell, 3 Needle, 2 Predict, 1 Serum Visions

The resulting record was 8-2 in Goblins favor. And I don't know what to do about it. What seems to happen is you never have the right answer at the right time. For instance, you can answer the SGC tokens by Stifle but you cant stop his ability, you can kill Chalice but you can never find another answer to the Vial played right after. You draw Counters when all you need is a couple of draw spells and a threat. One for one with Goblins will not win you the game. And I only remember two games where Tividar's Crusade would have been castable if I had it.

So...

I need some help. Right now I can't think of anything that can turn this around, and after this last weekend I am too defeated to try the more risky options such as Worship, Crusade, Dueling Grounds, etc.

And plz don't just throw ideas out there. I need numbers, match results, hard core testing with ten game sets and alternating. If anyone has already found an efficient way to anwer this Goblin SB I am all ears.

(And thanks to Anwar101, Obfuscate Freely, and Mad Zur for piloting the decks and helping me test this matchup.)

You have to fight Crypt and Chalice. I know you'll be siding out Needles for Naturalize. Swaping a BEB for another Stifle can help you fight Crypt, as well as a better Goblins match up. Why are you running MM and EE? EE is only good if your metagame is infested with MDed Chalice, the mirror, and Angel Stompy, and etc, etc... Meddling Mage is just bad in this type of deck, as Stifles do everything Mage does in each match up MM gets sided in against.

Tivadar's Crusade in this deck than Bardo's build. Parcher went through this already, and siding in Crusades basically says play UGr Threshold, but with a better flier and Jotun Grunts in the SB, and Swords to Plowshares.

My build is exactly like Jessie Hatfields build.... even the SB is the same, considering I playtested the deck tons of times with other options, and opt to keep his SB the same.

Against Goblins, siding out is a mistake imo.... I think you should choose between siding out the 4th Portent or 3rd Serum Visions instead. Card advantage is very important against Goblins, and the 3rd Predict can make a big difference in this match up.

Heres my SB plan....

-3 Needle
-1 Predict
-2 Serum Visions
-1 Counterspell
-2 Enforcer

+2 Hydroblast
+4 Stifle
+3 Naturalize

If I need to beat Goblins, and still maintain a strong match against the rest of the field, my SB would look like this...


// Sideboard 15
4 Stifle
3 Tivadar's Crusade
3 Naturalize
3 Jotun grunt
2 Loaming Shaman

[Bardo]

I think siding out the Needles and Enforcers is definitely the wrong move here, despite what build you're playing. Needle answer Vial, Crypt, Port, Wasteland, SGC, cycled Incinerators. Obviously, some of this shit is pretty fringe, but just being able to drop one a Vial or Crypt--two of the largest threats against Threshold--is amazing. I've already covered Enforcer; i.e. I always used to side them out, now I side in the one I have in my board and keep the other. Enforcer is great and is the only thing that will let you win the games that go long. Even without Thresh, a 3/3 is bigger than anything Goblins is running, short of G King.

[Citrus-God]

I think siding out the Needles and Enforcers is definitely the wrong move here, despite what build you're playing. Needle answer Vial, Crypt, Port, Wasteland, SGC, cycled Incinerators. Obviously, some of this shit is pretty fringe, but just being able to drop one a Vial or Crypt--two of the largest threats against Threshold--is amazing. I've already covered Enforcer; i.e. I always used to side them out, now I side in the one I have in my board and keep the other. Enforcer is great and is the only thing that will let you win the games that go long. Even without Thresh, a 3/3 is bigger than anything Goblins is running, short of G King.


Well.... the Hatfield Gro has a completely different philosophy. This deck doesnt want to play Enforcer because it's a win-more card. On Turn 4, you want to be casting cantrips to find answers and men. You also want to keep mana open for a hardcasted FoW or Counterspell. on Turn 4, you dont want to play Enforcer because Goblins have a way to fight back with your tapped out, and not advancing your game plan by casting Cantrips. If the Hatfield ran Mental Note and found a way to get around it's so-called "randomness", it'd probably would've snuck in some damage, making Mystic Enforcer much better.

As for siding out Needles for Naturalize.... it has become a strong plan. I tried playing against Machinus Goblins with Naturalizes, and it was amazing. He kept his Tinkerers in, and I went in for it. Game 3, you shuffle your SB, and keep the changes you made Game 2. It would however force your opponent to think differently, but if your a good poker player, you'd try to be unpredictable.

Also, Stifles can answer Crypt very well obviously. I'd go for a 4th one, because everyone else is siding hate against me.

[Happy Gilmore]

Well.... the Hatfield Gro has a completely different philosophy. This deck doesnt want to play Enforcer because it's a win-more card. On Turn 4, you want to be casting cantrips to find answers and men. You also want to keep mana open for a hardcasted FoW or Counterspell. on Turn 4, you dont want to play Enforcer because Goblins have a way to fight back with your tapped out, and not advancing your game plan by casting Cantrips. If the Hatfield ran Mental Note and found a way to get around it's so-called "randomness", it'd probably would've snuck in some damage, making Mystic Enforcer much better.

As for siding out Needles for Naturalize.... it has become a strong plan. I tried playing against Machinus Goblins with Naturalizes, and it was amazing. He kept his Tinkerers in, and I went in for it. Game 3, you shuffle your SB, and keep the changes you made Game 2. It would however force your opponent to think differently, but if your a good poker player, you'd try to be unpredictable.

Also, Stifles can answer Crypt very well obviously. I'd go for a 4th one, because everyone else is siding hate against me.


Regardless of what build of UGW your running it is still going to follow a similar patern (control early/crush them mid to late). Bardo might very well be right about not siding out the enforcers and needles (I will do the testing this weekend and let you guys know). I think the best plan is to side out one Needle and add two naturalize, which gives you 4 answers to Vial.

If anyone could do a ten game set themselves let me know how this boarding strategy works:

-2 Predict
-1 Serum Visions
-3 Counterspell
-1 Needle
-1 Enforcer? (going to 1 of them? I don't know what else to take out)
+3 Crusade
+2 Naturalize
+3 Stifle

I don't think you can effectively win if you go below 13 cantrips. And I even question taking out Predict since it has won me many a game against goblins in the past.

The other thing we found out was that Stifle was performing weakly against goblins for some reason. However, I feel it would become more useful when used in conjunction with crusade in order to get you to WW in a realistic amount of time. AND stifle keeps crypt/Ringleader from allowing them to recover after the crusade hits.

[Silverdragon]

Well.... the Hatfield Gro has a completely different philosophy.
Wouldn't you agree that changing your philosophy postboard to win some games is better than keeping your preboard philosophy and losing?
I have to agree with Bardo here Mystic Enforcer, even without Threshold, is really strong because if you can get it down you can nullify most of Goblins board until they have enough critters to strike through.
Concerning Needle I also think you should keep them in the deck even if you've seen Tinkerer because early you only need Needle to stay a few turns protecting you from Wasteland and late in the game you should have some answers to their answers.
Has anyone tested boarding out additional Counterspells and/or Dazes instead of the Cantrips? They are useless if Goblins gets a Vial to stick and not needled (and to a lesser extend if it gets a Lackey to connect, because if that happens you are almost certainly going to lose) and only trade with their cards one for one which cards like blasts do too and Crusade does better.
Is it safer to cut some Cantrips or some Counters?

[Happy Gilmore]

Wouldn't you agree that changing your philosophy postboard to win some games is better than keeping your preboard philosophy and losing?
I have to agree with Bardo here Mystic Enforcer, even without Threshold, is really strong because if you can get it down you can nullify most of Goblins board until they have enough critters to strike through.
Concerning Needle I also think you should keep them in the deck even if you've seen Tinkerer because early you only need Needle to stay a few turns protecting you from Wasteland and late in the game you should have some answers to their answers.
Has anyone tested boarding out additional Counterspells and/or Dazes instead of the Cantrips? They are useless if Goblins gets a Vial to stick and not needled (and to a lesser extend if it gets a Lackey to connect, because if that happens you are almost certainly going to lose) and only trade with their cards one for one which cards like blasts do too and Crusade does better.
Is it safer to cut some Cantrips or some Counters?

If your playing sweepers you can error towards cutting counters, but you need to be careful. Stifle is very good but it will never answer Chalice. You need to be able to answer that card without gimping the rest of your answers such as needle. That means boarding in 2-3 Naturalizes post board. for a total of 8-9 sb cards. The hardest part is deciding what to take out. This weekend I am going to test 2-3 boarding strategies and I'll let you guys know of the results.

(I think I'm ready to give it another shot after the beating I took last week in testing :cry: )

[Citrus-God]

Wouldn't you agree that changing your philosophy postboard to win some games is better than keeping your preboard philosophy and losing?
I have to agree with Bardo here Mystic Enforcer, even without Threshold, is really strong because if you can get it down you can nullify most of Goblins board until they have enough critters to strike through.
Concerning Needle I also think you should keep them in the deck even if you've seen Tinkerer because early you only need Needle to stay a few turns protecting you from Wasteland and late in the game you should have some answers to their answers.
Has anyone tested boarding out additional Counterspells and/or Dazes instead of the Cantrips? They are useless if Goblins gets a Vial to stick and not needled (and to a lesser extend if it gets a Lackey to connect, because if that happens you are almost certainly going to lose) and only trade with their cards one for one which cards like blasts do too and Crusade does better.
Is it safer to cut some Cantrips or some Counters?

Like Happy Gilmore said, if you side out Cantrips, it should only be specifically for Board Sweepers.

From my testing against Machinus Goblins, they still dont care. You fetch out Basics early game and it shouldnt matter. This deck isnt reliant on White (other than 1st turn against a Lackey) against Goblins. Running Enforcer would be a mistake because instead of fetching basics, your getting a Tundra which can easily be Wasted and Ported. Needles are bad. Against everygame I played against him, he always get's a Tinkerer out.

a. Countering Tinkerer is kinda poor on your game plan.
b. If Tinkerer does kill your Needle, it means Vial has been played sometime ago, and is currently active.

I'll stick to my Naturalizes.

Like I said, I dont like Crusades because of the casting cost. Sticking to the original game plan has been doing very well for me. However, I think I might cut the Hydroblasts for Tivadar's Crusade, since I have Needles and Stifle to back me up.

I will not side in Enforcer... ever. It is very hard to protect the manabase until you have 4 lands. Doing so means making what you draw from your cantrips crappier (lands over business spells for example), and dedicating your disruption on getting Enforcer active. All that should already mean your opponent has recently piece together your hand, and will be going broken with a chain of Ringleaders into Piledrivers, Warcheifs, and SCG. I have tried that game plan before, and it was awful for me.

[Bardo]

This deck doesnt want to play Enforcer because it's a win-more card.

Hold on, Hatfield Gro runs Enforcers in the maindeck, right? If so, are you saying that Enforcer is a "win-more" kind of card against Goblins? And just to define our terms, "win-more" meaning that the card is essentially unnecessary as you have ample means to win without it.


On Turn 4, you want to be casting cantrips to find answers and men. You also want to keep mana open for a hardcasted FoW or Counterspell. on Turn 4, you dont want to play Enforcer because Goblins have a way to fight back with your tapped out, and not advancing your game plan by casting Cantrips.

Whoever mentioned dropping Enforcer on turn 4? I can imagine some far out scenarios where that might be the right play, but usually you're casting him later in the game. As a 3/3 he'll trump anything on the ground, and as a 6/6 flier he'll win the games that you've lost on the ground.


As for siding out Needles for Naturalize.... it has become a strong plan.

In a field where many decks are playing Chalice, I can see the logic here, but otherwise 1 is half as much as 2 mana and being able to proactively answer threats is much better than responding to them on the stack (which requires you to have the mana open at the right time), as many Goblins players will be running REBs for your counters and draw spells. Needle and proactive cards in general give you more options in dictating the development of the game, instead of being the player forced to respond to this, that or the other on their terms.


I think the best plan is to side out one Needle and add two naturalize, which gives you 4 answers to Vial.

Siding out Needle, which is so much more for flexible, for artifact removal just confuses me. Good luck Naturalizing that Crypt/Port/Wasteland.


I don't think you can effectively win if you go below 13 cantrips.

You can and will.


Has anyone tested boarding out additional Counterspells and/or Dazes instead of the Cantrips?

My build is only running 12 cantrips to start with, so I don't touch them when I board. However, I do remove the CSpells and 1-2 Daze for Hydroblasts, which basically do the same thing and double as StPs as well.


Is it safer to cut some Cantrips or some Counters?

It depends on the build.


I will not side in Enforcer... ever. It is very hard to protect the manabase until you have 4 lands.

Maybe it's because I'm running 18 land, but if you haven't tested Enforcer against Goblins extensively, don't dismiss it. And honestly, getting Enforcer onto the board is actually easier than getting 1WW for Crusade. Remember, you only need are three lands + Werebear to cast the thing.

[Citrus-God]

I will admit... I have won with Enforcer at a tournament against Goblins before... more than once. But at that point in the game, IMO, I was just ripping through my deck for any creatures so I could find just seal the game and break my opponent's defences, and I ended up drawing into a Mystic Enforcer. It probably wouldnt have mattered much really, since a Werebear would done the same duty, but the fact he was at 11, I would've kept my opponent from getting another turn if that were a Bear.



Hold on, Hatfield Gro runs Enforcers in the maindeck, right? If so, are you saying that Enforcer is a "win-more" kind of card against Goblins? And just to define our terms, "win-more" meaning that the card is essentially unnecessary as you have ample means to win without it.

But yes, I have pulled off wins without Enforcer... lots of wins. I just use it as a card to turn games around against decks like Threshold, Fish, and at times, Goblins. It's pretty much a trumpcard against creature decks.

There are times I find Enforcer unessesary against Goblins Game 1. When I see it with Portents, SV, and BS, I usually fetch/Scry/Predict it away. The only times when I use Enforcer is when situation warrents it, and when I need any creature to seal the game.




Whoever mentioned dropping Enforcer on turn 4? I can imagine some far out scenarios where that might be the right play, but usually you're casting him later in the game. As a 3/3 he'll trump anything on the ground, and as a 6/6 flier he'll win the games that you've lost on the ground.

I apologize for not being specific enough. Only time I have ever used Enforcer is late game. I never used him midgame for some reason. I will admit, when your guys are stalling the ground, he is very decent at breaking the groundwar.





I don't think you can effectively win if you go below 13 cantrips.
You can and will.


The thing is, you run 8 cantrips that improve your card quality, meanwhile, we run 10-11 cantrips that improve your card quality, while 2-3 of those other cards are just draw cards. The thing with Hatfield Gro that makes it so good is the fact that's it's reliance on cantrips allow it to flexibly get the card it needs, as well as other cantrips. Me and Happy Gilmore mulligan every hand we get until we get a cantrip just because once cantrip can create a chain of many to fill the yard and maintain strong and solid draws. I have tested your build of Threshold, and I must say that a hand with Mental Note is actually worth keeping.... even though SV and BS are better, the philosophy on your deck, IMO, is completely different, since you can go beatdown early.





I will not side in Enforcer... ever. It is very hard to protect the manabase until you have 4 lands.

Maybe it's because I'm running 18 land, but if you haven't tested Enforcer against Goblins extensively, don't dismiss it. And honestly, getting Enforcer onto the board is actually easier than getting 1WW for Crusade. Remember, you only need are three lands + Werebear to cast the thing.

I'll take your word for it. Even though we played our decks differently, I will test Enforcer in the Goblins match more extensively, but I will take you for your word. Werebears is a good way to get around LD, and can make many uncracked fecthes gold in this match-up.

I dont think it's the fact that you run 18 lands, considering the fact I run 17 lands, but with 12 1cc Cantrips to support my manabase. In fact, I might say it's easier for me to make more consistent lands drops than you do, since I do run more cantrips. But all, in all, I think it's the Basic Plains that allow you to run Mystic Enforcer, IMO.

[Happy Gilmore]

There are times I find Enforcer unessesary against Goblins Game 1. When I see it with Portents, SV, and BS, I usually fetch/Scry/Predict it away. The only times when I use Enforcer is when situation warrents it, and when I need any creature to seal the game.


The thing is, you run 8 cantrips that improve your card quality, meanwhile, we run 10-11 cantrips that improve your card quality, while 2-3 of those other cards are just draw cards. The thing with Hatfield Gro that makes it so good is the fact that's it's reliance on cantrips allow it to flexibly get the card it needs, as well as other cantrips.

I have tested your build of Threshold, and I must say that a hand with Mental Note is actually worth keeping.... even though SV and BS are better, the philosophy on your deck, IMO, is completely different, since you can go beatdown early.

I'll take your word for it. Even though we played our decks differently, I will test Enforcer in the Goblins match more extensively, but I will take you for your word. Werebears is a good way to get around LD, and can make many uncracked fecthes gold in this match-up.

I dont think it's the fact that you run 18 lands, considering the fact I run 17 lands, but with 12 1cc Cantrips to support my manabase. In fact, I might say it's easier for me to make more consistent lands drops than you do, since I do run more cantrips. But all, in all, I think it's the Basic Plains that allow you to run Mystic Enforcer, IMO.

What happened here? When did this discussion become Bardo grow vs. Hatfield grow? And that brings me to another point. I am sick of people referring to it as Hatfield, Bardo, Wastelife grow, etc. Does everyone want separate threads for each version that exists? Is this a constructive way of addressing various match ups? No, it isn't. What UGW needs is hardcore testing. Something that Bardo has done, with a very different boarding strategy than I have been using. Which, so far, has not been working well for me.

Don't be so quick to dismiss advice because a person's build is different than your own.


Me and Happy Gilmore mulligan every hand we get until we get a cantrip just because once cantrip can create a chain of many to fill the yard and maintain strong and solid draws.

That is neither technically or grammatically accurate. Some hands are keepable even without a cantrip but require the correct match up, the right timing (on the play or draw), and a build with enough answers to effectively deal with threats (this is more often true post-board). Sweeping statements like this are FTL.

[Bardo]

What happened here? When did this discussion become Bardo grow vs. Hatfield grow? And that brings me to another point. I am sick of people referring to it as Hatfield, Bardo, Wastelife grow, etc. Does everyone want separate threads for each version that exists?

The important thing is to stay above petty factionalism. I mean, it's fine it disagree on builds and strategy. As long as we can have a mature discussion and be honest with each other, everything should be cool.

[Citrus-God]

What happened here? When did this discussion become Bardo grow vs. Hatfield grow? And that brings me to another point. I am sick of people referring to it as Hatfield, Bardo, Wastelife grow, etc. Does everyone want separate threads for each version that exists? Is this a constructive way of addressing various match ups? No, it isn't. What UGW needs is hardcore testing. Something that Bardo has done, with a very different boarding strategy than I have been using. Which, so far, has not been working well for me.

Don't be so quick to dismiss advice because a person's build is different than your own.

I'm sorry if the posts I made sounded ignorant, but that tends to happen when you debate with someone. When you debate with someone, it opens up new perspectives from that person, so learn soemthing from it. You argue to get more out of them. You give one point, they give another. In the old Gro Thread, it took awhile for people to realize that Bardo and you VA guys play the two decks differently. Sure, same 40 cards, but they play so much more differently from eachother. Roop stated that the Hatfields played this deck by cantriping through the entire deck replacing it's threats, finding answers, and keeping the chain going by finding other cantrips, whereas, Bardo played the deck like Fish/Bird Shit. Debate does get you somewhere, hence you see me and Bardo going off on eachother with the good ol' Mental Note v.s. Portent-Predict debate. I learned many things from Bardo, so dont think I'm that ignorant.


As for seperating the variants of these decks, I actually agree with this. Thses decks need individual attention of their own, but they can somewhat share tech with eachother. It's like Portents and Predicts, as too the savage synergies of Meddling Mage and Mental Note. Those two do two different things. Portent-Predict is card quality and velocity, while Meddling Mage and Mental Note is Interaction. But that is just from my perspective. If you play Type 1, you know you compare Meandeck Gifts from Brassman Gifts in 2005, but you cant actually compare which is better. Look at Grim Long and Pitch Long, Dry Slaver and Burning Slaver. They are merely variants of the original archtype. Concept is the same, playing it is different.





That is neither technically or grammatically accurate. Some hands are keepable even without a cantrip but require the correct match up, the right timing (on the play or draw), and a build with enough answers to effectively deal with threats (this is more often true post-board). Sweeping statements like this are FTL.



I admit, I should been wrong about this, but I also remember some games I had as well. But that is the general idea of it, just not specifically what should be done.

Pre-Board and Post-Board I mulligan until I have an answer to either Lackey or Vial. Keeping a hand with just control against this deck Post-Board is usually commonly considered.

Against RGSA, I tend to neglect my opneing hand unless I had Needle because countering a survival, and having to deal with 4 Witnesses is a pain to handle, so I usually just mull until I get a Needle.

I cant remember much more, but there were games that I had neglect my cantrips because I needed it Turn 1.




The important thing is to stay above petty factionalism. I mean, it's fine it disagree on builds and strategy. As long as we can have a mature discussion and be honest with each other, everything should be cool.


Forgive me, but I was stating my opinion, and my perspective of what can and cant work in this deck, but it's only 1 variant. I have put your ideas into consideration (like siding in Enforcer), and yes, I still have your old tournament reports on UGw Threshold bookmarked. I learned many things from those tournament reports, and the articles you've written about this deck, even though I play a different variant of this deck. I will admit, you've done a great job testing this deck, you made sure everytime I sit across from an opposing Threshold player, you gave me a good reason to counter his Meddling Mages just to keep his skill at a minimum, so I wont get hurt. :wink:

[Parcher]

I don't think that factionalism has anything to do with noting the inherent differences in the way the different configurations play out.

Bardo. You have more experience than most with the deck. You developed a version that you consistantly do well with, and are familiar with. And as mentioned, you have written a library of articles an tournament reports on the subject.

One problem with that. How many time in all of those reports did you play against Goblins?

Right. Not only is it a deck you have less experience playing against, your deck was almost completely developed without even a factoring presence.

The 16 cantrip version was developed in the direct path of of both Goblins and Solidarity. The fact is, the speed you gain from Mental Note is nullified by Goblin's card and mana advantages nine out of ten times.

This entire discussion was brought up due to a desire to shore up the post-sideboard matches against Goblins. I believe that against Goblins only the 16 cantrip version performs better than the 12. It also allows a more flexible sideboard due to it's ability to better get to the needed cards and lands.

@Happy: One question. You mention how important it is to stop Vial. You bring in Naturalize as well as Needle to deal with it. Then you side out half of your hard counters. I don't get it.

Vial is disgusting against Threshold for three main reasons:
1. It can put creatures into play at instant speed.
2. It effectively doubles Goblins mana production.
3. It prevents you from countering their Goblins.

If you gone through the difficulty of removing or neutering their Vial, why would you not want to have the counterspells to take advantage of this? I could even see it if you were swapping in Blasts, but you aren't.

[Happy Gilmore]

I don't think that factionalism has anything to do with noting the inherent differences in the way the different configurations play out.

Bardo. You have more experience than most with the deck. You developed a version that you consistantly do well with, and are familiar with. And as mentioned, you have written a library of articles an tournament reports on the subject.

One problem with that. How many time in all of those reports did you play against Goblins?

Right. Not only is it a deck you have less experience playing against, your deck was almost completely developed without even a factoring presence.

The 16 cantrip version was developed in the direct path of of both Goblins and Solidarity. The fact is, the speed you gain from Mental Note is nullified by Goblin's card and mana advantages nine out of ten times.

This entire discussion was brought up due to a desire to shore up the post-sideboard matches against Goblins. I believe that against Goblins only the 16 cantrip version performs better than the 12. It also allows a more flexible sideboard due to it's ability to better get to the needed cards and lands.

@Happy: One question. You mention how important it is to stop Vial. You bring in Naturalize as well as Needle to deal with it. Then you side out half of your hard counters. I don't get it.

Vial is disgusting against Threshold for three main reasons:
1. It can put creatures into play at instant speed.
2. It effectively doubles Goblins mana production.
3. It prevents you from countering their Goblins.

If you gone through the difficulty of removing or neutering their Vial, why would you not want to have the counterspells to take advantage of this? I could even see it if you were swapping in Blasts, but you aren't.

Haha, you don't need to tell me how good Needle is. I've been playing it since GP Philly and it has won me many many games. I understand why your so cautious about taking out even one Needle against them. But notice that I have yet to test this sb strategy so I can't be sure if taking out 3x counterspell is correct. I know that in the past I have used this strategy to great effect when Playing red with Pyroclasm and Stifle. However, Crusade is 3cc and double W, which seems like it would require a much longer set up time. I can tell you that with a sweeper in the deck taking out counters is probably better than draw. And you could even say that Stifle is very close to being a hard counter against them if you are using a sweeper before or after it. I think you would be amazed how often you draw a two of Pithing Needle with the amount of draw that is in the deck. Taking out one should not affect the chances of drawing it too much. But like I said, this is all speculation at best till I get some testing in this weekend.

[Bardo]

Bardo played the deck like Fish/Bird Shit.

A minor technicality but since I play Lam's U/G deck in Vintage too, note that BS plays a heavy mana disruption game with Rods, 4+1 Wasteland, Root Maze, Stifle for fetchlands, etc. That deck is heavily focused on screwing with its opponents land and then beating them bloody with Mongoose and Werebear. Threshold uses Daze to exploit early-game mana limits, but that's pretty much the only place where the decks are similar, strategically.


As for seperating the variants of these decks, I actually agree with this.

If anything, that would only create that "petty factionalism" I'm referring to above. As somone who's explored both versions of the deck (and others), I can say that the variations do not play so drastically different from one another that that separate threads would be justified, let alone productive.


Bardo. You have more experience than most with the deck. You developed a version that you consistantly do well with, and are familiar with. And as mentioned, you have written a library of articles an tournament reports on the subject.

One problem with that. How many time in all of those reports did you play against Goblins?

Right. Not only is it a deck you have less experience playing against, your deck was almost completely developed without even a factoring presence.


This much is true, there are very few people that play Goblins in Portland. Like, in the last eight tournaments I've attended, I've played against Goblins literally twice. Yeah. Move to Portland, it's awesome.

But it is wrong to suggest that I've developed the deck as though Goblins doesn't exist, as the 4 BEBs and 3 Tivadar's Crusades in my sb can testify. Whenever I rework my sideboard plan, it is the first deck I consider and I've gone far out of my way to test against it and see how the match plays out--hell, I've even co-written an 11,000 word article series about it.

But as I've stressed over and over, there are no gospel builds of this deck. Each one should be built and played according to the expected field. If the 16 cantrip version performs better in a rigorous and controlled testing environment, then go with it. But just saying, "[variation x] is better against Goblins," is a meaningless statement, since the builds and play skill of the players involved is really all over the place.


Vial is disgusting against Threshold for three main reasons:
1. It can put creatures into play at instant speed.
2. It effectively doubles Goblins mana production.
3. It prevents you from countering their Goblins.

At certain points in the development of the game, Vial is meaningless and can be ignored. This of course assumes that you have the advantage, but since Vial only costs 1, it's quite difficult to Counterspell Vial in the first place.

But truly, Vial is a game-breaker when it comes down on turns 1-3 when you likely won't have CSpell mana available, usually.

[Parcher]

This much is true, there are very few people that play Goblins in Portland. Like, in the last eight tournaments I've attended, I've played against Goblins literally twice. Yeah. Move to Portland, it's awesome.

But it is wrong to suggest that I've developed the deck as though Goblins doesn't exist, as the 4 BEBs and 3 Tivadar's Crusades in my sb can testify. Whenever I rework my sideboard plan, it is the first deck I consider and I've gone far out of my way to test against it and see how the match plays out--hell, I've even co-written an 11,000 word article series about it.

Not to suggest this is a fault with you, Bardo, but in the theoretical:

Player X tests his deck against the Legacy field, including Goblins.

Player X consistantly loses 60% of his games to Goblins, but due to the overwhelmingly good matchups against the rest of the field decides to play it at his local tournament.

Player X wins local tournament without facing Goblins.

Just because the deck has been heavily playtested against a certain matchup, doesn't mean it will ever be favorable. The problem therein being that if the player is never punished for not adjusting to an unfavorable matchup, they will continue along the same path.

In this case, since they keep winning without facing Goblins, regardless of what their own testing shows them, why would they feel the need to alter their deck?


But as I've stressed over and over, there are no gospel builds of this deck. Each one should be built and played according to the expected field. If the 16 cantrip version performs better in a rigorous and controlled testing environment, then go with it. But just saying, "[variation x] is better against Goblins," is a meaningless statement, since the builds and play skill of the players involved is really all over the place.

Sure. That's always the case. In my example I didn't detail why I referred to it this way, since most already know the answer.

In point, most Goblins v. Threshold matches progress in swings. Turn 1-4 Goblins is the agressor. Turns 4-9 Threshold is the agressor. After approximately turn 9, Threshold gets completely outclassed in both card, and mana advantage. If they do not have some form of board sweep, Mystic Enforcer is usually their only way to win.

The reason I have found the 16 cantrip version better against Goblins is that it allows Threshold to keep a semblance of a continuing card selection/advantage in the face of Goblins relentless attack. Mental Note alters the way the games are played. It allows Threshold to take the Aggro role 1 to 2 turns more quickly. If your disruption allows control of the game to be taken, either through overwhelming creature advantage, or sufficient disruption of Goblins' gamplan by this point you should win.

In my experience, this rarely happens. I have found that Goblins are quite capable of coming back from this before the game is lost. It is in these, I feel much more frequent cases, when the "cantrip chain" including Predict allows the Threshold player to keep presure on the Goblins player through either additional creatures, or the access to lands that allow the playing of spells at a higher cost than may be viable in versions with less deck manipulation.


At certain points in the development of the game, Vial is meaningless and can be ignored. This of course assumes that you have the advantage, but since Vial only costs 1, it's quite difficult to Counterspell Vial in the first place.

But truly, Vial is a game-breaker when it comes down on turns 1-3 when you likely won't have CSpell mana available, usually.

Sort of my point to Happy. Since you usually will have difficulty stopping an early Vial, you use Needle and Naturalize to neuter it. The problem becomes, what then? You will never gain any advantage against Goblins pitching to Force, though that is often the correct play. When you keep your actual Counterspells in, you steal the tempo back from Goblins. Without Vial, they are paying four and five for their bombs, and you only pay two to stop them. To me, that is the definition of the Tempo advantage Threshold was built on. I have issue with giving that up for a conditional counter that in the case they drop a first turn Lackey or Vial may never be relevant in the game.

[Citrus-God]

A minor technicality but since I play Lam's U/G deck in Vintage too, note that BS plays a heavy mana disruption game with Rods, 4+1 Wasteland, Root Maze, Stifle for fetchlands, etc. That deck is heavily focused on screwing with its opponents land and then beating them bloody with Mongoose and Werebear. Threshold uses Daze to exploit early-game mana limits, but that's pretty much the only place where the decks are similar, strategically.

In my opinion, if you look at it from my perspective, I tend to see Bird Shit like Feinstein Fish. It's not the disruption I tend to look at most, but the clock and the control elements. If you look at it, that deck want's to set you back so far to exhaust, it just plays a solid clock to end the game while your resources are disrupted. In my opinion, from playing your version, I have concluded that I play cantrips to find things I need, play some men, play free-counters to keep my opponent in check until exhaust, and then beat my opponent down while his in his most vaunerable state. So in my conclusion, the deck plays similairly to a Tempo deck philosophically speaking. I guess it could be our playstyles that triggers our differences in eachother's opinions.






As for seperating the variants of these decks, I actually agree with this.

If anything, that would only create that "petty factionalism" I'm referring to above. As somone who's explored both versions of the deck (and others), I can say that the variations do not play so drastically different from one another that that separate threads would be justified, let alone productive.


If I remember, Stephen Menendian stated with an example in one of his articles that it's the same cards that deck uses that makes that deck good. If I can remember, he used LePlante's Workshop choices as an example, the reasoning it does well is still because of the same components other Worshop decks run, like Trinisphere and Mishra's Workshop. It is very true that the two decks do run the same cards such as, 4 Geese, 4 Bears, 1-2 Enforcer, 8 staple cantrips, same 6-8 fetches, 6-7 dual lands, 2-3 Needles, 4 Swords, and 8-10 of the nearly the same counters. I admit, having played many variants as well, they dont play much differently from eachother since they both have the same opening game plan.

I do disagree with you about what you said about my opinion being petty factionalism. I do however did thought about what you said, and the interest and discussions of the two decks did seperate into two diff. discussions, which would be more individual than symmetrical... which can be a bad thing, considering the fact the two decks are individually innovated, meaning that general discussion on certain topics can be shared by the deck in general, and a sub-topic on this can be discussion on the variants. Of crouse, this is an opinion, and an idea. Feel free to disagree with this.

[Happy Gilmore]

At certain points in the development of the game, Vial is meaningless and can be ignored. This of course assumes that you have the advantage, but since Vial only costs 1, it's quite difficult to Counterspell Vial in the first place.

But truly, Vial is a game-breaker when it comes down on turns 1-3 when you likely won't have CSpell mana available, usually.

This is correct. And even a needle'd vial played turns 1-3 can still be a threat, since many versions run MD artifact removal in the form of Tinker or Tin-Street Hooligan. This is yet another good reason to SB in some number of naturalizes, making these cards dead and still effectively stoping vial before it hits three counters(the point when it becomes nearly as efficient as lacky).


In point, most Goblins v. Threshold matches progress in swings. Turn 1-4 Goblins is the agressor. Turns 4-9 Threshold is the agressor. After approximately turn 9, Threshold gets completely outclassed in both card, and mana advantage. If they do not have some form of board sweep, Mystic Enforcer is usually their only way to win.

In my experiance once I get to a point where I start becoming offensive there is no opportunity for goblins to come back. Predict/Crusade/Stifle should always keep tempo in your favor making it impossible for them to recover. I might be oversimplifying this but I generally play against two goblin decks a week (1/4 of the field is goblins) and I can't remember a game where goblins went from being defensive to offensive again. I loose when I never get a chance to be offensive at all. And I find that it takes much more for UGW to go agro than the red version does. That alone might be a good reason to leave in the Enforcers post board. If you add in the life gain from Swords you are going to give them on average one turn more to find the answers they need to beat you. Thats a liability worth mentioning.

[AnwarA101]

Has anyone considered Uktabi Orangutan or Viridian Shaman as an answer to both Aether Vial and Chalice of the Void? It also gives you another creature that isn't suspectible to graveyard hate. Maybe a boarding strategy such as this -

-2 Enforcer
-2 Counterspell
-1 Predict
-1 Portent

+2 BEB
+2 Stifle
+2 Uktabi Orangutan

I think Pithing Needle is too good against Goblins to cut even with the danger of Chalice.

[Happy Gilmore]

Has anyone considered Uktabi Orangutan or Viridian Shaman as an answer to both Aether Vial and Chalice of the Void? It also gives you another creature that isn't suspectible to graveyard hate. Maybe a boarding strategy such as this -

-2 Enforcer
-2 Counterspell
-1 Predict
-1 Portent

+2 BEB
+2 Stifle
+2 Uktabi Orangutan

I think Pithing Needle is too good against Goblins to cut even with the danger of Chalice.

Its an option but I don't think that board is drastic enough to even the matchup, much less put it in your favor. I think the key is to create a situation where you are trading one of your cards for multiples of theirs. If you get into trying to play a game of parity with them you are going to run out of answers. Uktabi Orangutan is interesting since it trades with both the Vial and a creature they may care about. I only wish there was a 2cc version :frown: . To be honest you could even try Tividar himself. I bet he is a pain in the ass for goblins.

[nitewolf9]

I loose when I never get a chance to be offensive at all.

By that logic, you should never lose! Zing!

I like the viridan shaman idea if chalice becomes more and more popular.

[Parcher]

Regarding Sex Monkey.......Holy Crap!

I knew no one ever responded to my thread, but I guess no one ever read it either.:frown:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4419

[Citrus-God]

I tested Enforcers last night against Goblins. I must say, for the first 1-4 turns, I found them to be quite dead and wishing they were something else, like a cantrip or something. I know 8 win conditions isnt a whole lot, but having only 8 men, and the rest being disruption and cantrips can very easily help you swing the game in your favor. I like cantrips due to the flexibility where you can choose between going aggro or going control. Mystic Enforcer is however a huge bomb on turn 5-6. I let 2 Ringleaders resolve, and it was too late, my clock was so good, I ended up winning. I would leave 1 Enforcer in since I can go through my deck so well, but 2 seems like a lot IMO. I still have to test Enforcer, since it was only two games where I got to see Enforcer in action, and 4 games where I had to cantrip them away in favor of more control. Enforcers are good, but IMO, dont sideout Cantrips for them.

Viridian Shaman seems really techy. My problem is if your on the draw, they can just Vial out a Matron of Warcheif in resp. to your Viridian Shaman.

My only problem with Artifact removal is the fact they can only answer 1 Vial at a time. I'd rather run Serenity or EE to answer Vial, since Naturalizes and Viridian Shamans is targeted removal. Serenity is bad because they take another turn, and EE is bas because it kills your own Geese when you attempt to answer Vial, but at least it answers Warcheifs too.

[Nightmare]

Has anyone considered Uktabi Orangutan or Viridian Shaman as an answer to both Aether Vial and Chalice of the Void? It also gives you another creature that isn't suspectible to graveyard hate. At Kadi's DLD a few months back (last time you guys were up here) I ran Trygon Predator for this reason, but he was underwhelming.

[Citrus-God]

Was it because of the fact he dies to REB and doesnt answer the Vial immediately? You play Predator, they put a counter on their Vial, then you swing, they resp. by Vialing, and your watching a Ringleader/SCG resolve. I can see why he would do awful against Goblins.

[Nightmare]

Was it because of the fact he dies to REB and doesnt answer the Vial immediately? You play Predator, they put a counter on their Vial, then you swing, they resp. by Vialing, and your watching a Ringleader/SCG resolve. I can see why he would do awful against Goblins.
He was really there to deal with Chalice, but whatever. How is that example you gave any different than Sex Monkey?

[Citrus-God]

He was really there to deal with Chalice, but whatever. How is that example you gave any different than Sex Monkey?

It's for giving your opponent a turn to put a counter on Vial. People get lazy, but I complained about the cc of Sex Monkey, and I stated how it would pose a problem due to the fact it came out turn 3, and even worse if your on the draw. If you get it out consistently on turn 3 to deal with Vial, regardless of wether your opponent is on the play or draw, it should be good.

[AnwarA101]

Has anyone considered Uktabi Orangutan or Viridian Shaman as an answer to both Aether Vial and Chalice of the Void? It also gives you another creature that isn't suspectible to graveyard hate.


I was reminded yesterday by Mad Zur that Viridian Shaman or Uktabi Orangutan aren't really threats especially against Goblins. I would have to agree with his assessment as playing 3 mana 2/2s don't really do much to change the matchup in favor of the ***** player even though they can blow up Vial or Chalice. I believe I confused Loaming Shaman with Virdian Shaman as if Viridian Shaman was at least a 3/2 that would be alot better but probably still weak against Goblins. Perhaps Naturalize or some other plan would just be better as Port could prevent you from playing Shaman but not Naturalize.

[Citrus-God]

Hey, I made Top 8 at Monster Den last night against a field of Solidarity, Threshold, and Goblins. I lost to 5/3 in the quarter finals, and beat the mirror twice in the swiss. I also lost to Solidarity but I drew bad cards off my chain of cantrips. The tournament report is in tournament forum.

[Happy Gilmore]

Just a little update:

I did not get a chance to test any post board goblins last weeks. We were more interested in the Solidarity vs. Alluren matchup lols. Anyway, Mad Zur did however test pre-board against goblins. Bringing up the total sets to 4 over the past 3 weeks or so.

out of 40 games here is the results:

6:4 (Thres' favor)
6:4 (Thres' favor) (red grow, but only 4 burn spells.)
5:5
6:4 (Thres' favor)

Basically its 50:50 to slightly favorable for grow. I figured most would be supprized by this. It generally comes down to who goes first, although I know two of the games I won using UGR were on the draw.

[Bardo]

Agreed. From my testing with Machinus, Threshold usually wins when it goes first and Goblins almost always wins when it goes first. Post-board is another matter, since Goblins gains a lot more by boarding than Threshold.

[Happy Gilmore]

Agreed. From my testing with Machinus, Threshold usually wins when it goes first and Goblins almost always wins when it goes first. Post-board is another matter, since Goblins gains a lot more by boarding than Threshold.

Its amazing just how bad it gets post board...Like I said we should really focus on that for sure. Also I wonder what you guys think about this board.

2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
3 Naturalize
3 Crusade
3 Stifle
1 Mystic Enforcer

with 1 Sensei's Divining top in the main over a Portent. The idea is to board in the two tops and 3 counterbalances vs. combo, and the mirror. I havn't done the testing yet but it seems like it would nutz if it resolves. Chalice for 1 and 2 that is one sided seems prity good to me. :tongue:

(The idea is not really mine. This is something all the thresh players in my meta have been thinking about.)

[Citrus-God]

Its amazing just how bad it gets post board...Like I said we should really focus on that for sure. Also I wonder what you guys think about this board.

2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
3 Naturalize
3 Crusade
3 Stifle
1 Mystic Enforcer

with 1 Sensei's Divining top in the main over a Portent. The idea is to board in the two tops and 3 counterbalances vs. combo, and the mirror. I havn't done the testing yet but it seems like it would nutz if it resolves. Chalice for 1 and 2 that is one sided seems prity good to me. :tongue:

(The idea is not really mine. This is something all the thresh players in my meta have been thinking about.)

That's a pretty cool idea to tell the truth. I should give it a try, as siding in those cards can make it very one-sided against Hanni Fish, Threshold mirror, and most Combo decks. Counterbalance/Top can hit so much right now, it's just crazy, even with Top.


@Bardo: What card do you think is the most important card in the Threshold mirror? I've noticed that Meddling Mage in the early game can disrupt everything, and Mystic Enforcer in the mid-late game can do a ton of damage.

I noticed this because every game I won, I won because my opponent's Mage didnt resolve early enough to matter, and by the time it resolved, I had more creatures out than my opponent does or I won the stalemate with Enforcer. At the Monster Den tournament, I forgot to mention that his Meddling Mages didnt resolve early game because I was more worried it might disrupt my game plan. By the time he played another Mage, I was in a better position, like I had more creatures out or Enforcer was casted right after that. That night, I playtested with my teammate right after the tournament whom was playing Thresh (Your build, card for card), and I let Mage resolve. Guess who won that one? He did. He chanted Portent with the first Mage and he dismantled my card quality, and due to the lack of card quality, he casted a 2nd one on Enforcer. I realized this that night.

[Citrus-God]

Did some testing against Goblins. I really like Crusades right now, but you obviously have to protect it with Stifles and Needles or else Goblins can wreck your mana base. Mystic Enforcers are getting better actually for me. I board them in when I'm on the play since I'm the first to get land drops out. I'm pretty sure I'm going to run 4 Crusades. 3 Never seemed to be too much from my testing, as I alwasy wanted more so I can keep my opponent in check.

[diffy]

Did some testing against Goblins. I really like Crusades right now, but you obviously have to protect it with Stifles and Needles or else Goblins can wreck your mana base. Mystic Enforcers are getting better actually for me. I board them in when I'm on the play since I'm the first to get land drops out. I'm pretty sure I'm going to run 4 Crusades. 3 Never seemed to be too much from my testing, as I alwasy wanted more so I can keep my opponent in check.


Why not play something like Dueling Grounds (http://magiccards.info/in/en/245.html) in the place of Tivadar's Crusades (teh Tech from the Bardo against Machinus, UGW Grow against Mono R Vial Goblins article on Starcity)... so long they are working fine for me...

I'll briefly put up some pros and cons:

+ Doesn't require any double colored mana costs
+ Permanent Solution for attacking Hordes
+ More versatile (board them in Vs Swarm Aggro too [Elgin Zoo anyone?])
+ Frees up one sideboard slot as you don't want more than 1 (so you SB 3)
+ Even an untreshed Enforcer is now HUGE
+ Hard to remove if unexpected (and if the gobs player sides in disenchant effects you're happy too)

- Not so good when loosing ******** (still decent though)
- No answer to SGC

I think this sideboard would be pretty good at beating Gobs while still not being too narrow:

2x Blue Elemetal Blast ->in
2x Hydroblast ->in
3x Dueling Grounds ->in

3x Jotun Grunt (hot or not to side in?) ->in
2x Tormod's Crypt / Loaming Shaman ->in (the shaman, not the crypt)

2x Ravages of War
1x Armageddon

That would be a total of 12 cards to side in... I am not playing a conventional ***** list but I think that a combination of Forces, Dazes and Predicts alongside the Meddling Mages would be decent to side out.

C'mon, give the crapy rare a try :wink:

[Bardo]

@Bardo: What card do you think is the most important card in the Threshold mirror? I've noticed that Meddling Mage in the early game can disrupt everything, and Mystic Enforcer in the mid-late game can do a ton of damage.

Sorry for the delay in answer this. I saw it and then forgot about it.

Most important cards in the mirror:

Mystic Enforcer
Tormod's Crypt / Loaming Shaman / etc.
Engineered Explosives

(in no particular order)

Mage is hot and cold. It's conditionally very strong, but the best cards are unconditionally good.

Re: Dueling Grounds. I really like the idea, but I haven't actually tested it yet. Seems sweet, if you can around SGC and Incinerator for your Enforcer.

[Citrus-God]

I see Dueling Grounds quite promising. All you need to do is answer SCG and Incenerator, which can easily be done. The colors for it is also rather easier to get hold of as well.

@Bardo: I can see why cards like Loaming Shaman and Enforcer would dominate the mirror. I had to watch an entire game where people had to fight over the resolution of Loaming Shamans and Mystic Enforcers just to get an edge. People are also starting to run Grunt alongside with Shaman just to get around Graveyard hate. Thanks for answering.

[Solpugid]

I'd like to post the list I've been running and testing with for a while now. It lacks mental note, which I've tried and found to be a liability mid to late-game, and has maindeck stifle instead of pithing needle. Feel free to pick this list apart, but it's been working very well for me.

Creatures: 10
4 Nimble mongoose
4 Werebear
2 Mystic enforcer

Counters: 13
4 Force of will
3 Daze
3 Counterspell
3 Stifle

Removal: 6
4 Swords to plowshares
2 Piracy charm

Cantrips: 14
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum visions
3 Portent
3 Predict

Lands: 17
3 Tropical island
3 Tundra
3 Flooded strand
2 Polluted delta
2 Windswept heath
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Nantuko monastery


Board:
2 Jotun grunt
2 Tormod's crypt
3 Krosan grip
4 Meddling mage
4 Hydroblast


Recently tested matchups:

Boros aggro: 6-2 preboard, 5-0 postboard
-seems kinda rediculous looking back on it, though in more than one of the preboard games I won, I was down to 3 or less life and he attempted to topdeck burn for the win.
-The postboard games he didn't have any crypts and I had hydroblast, so it was kind of unfair. Even so, I never went below 10 life.

Rockin' funkbrew: 5-1 preboard
-These were the most hilarious games I've ever played with thresh. There were games where I needed to topdeck an enforcer FTW and did. There were games where he needed to topdeck a deed FTW and did. I got hymned twice and duressed 3 times in a game and won. Fun stuff.
-I know this isn't a well-established deck, but I wanted one that seemed to have a good thresh matchup (deed+discard+pro-green+islandwalk seemed strong). Turns out thresh stepped up to the challenge.

BW aggro-control (build of my own): 6-2 preboard
-I would have lost a number of these if it wasn't for piracy charm ripping into confidant, spectral lynx, and mother of runes.


There were many other matches I played, but only once or twice per deck. Overall this version has outperformed, at least preboard, any other version I've tried. Maybe it's just playstyle, I don't know.

As a disclaimer, I realize I haven't extensively tested any of the matchups listed above, and in two I haven't tried postboard yet (where their grave hate will get me). Still, what I'm trying to get across is that this list has been kind to me. What do you guys think?

Oh, and I had a quick 6-person tournament at my college and wrote up a quick report on it. The decklist is, mostly, the same. You can find it here:

http://com5.runboard.com/bthelegacyharbor.f6.t56

[noobslayer]

I'd really only like to comment on the land count, as I think the deck needs 18 lands to function fully and consistenly. I also tried a MD monestary, and it could be good, but it usually had a big old waste target painted on its face. Also, it made colorless mana, which was a pain to find a use for.

I'd comment on Piracy Charm, but my sentiments would be less than supportive of it.

[Solpugid]

Feel free to comment on piracy charm, but I've found it quite good. I've always thought this deck needed extra removal to combat aggro decks (since they usually are pretty tough matchups), but I always wanted removal that wasn't dead against combo.

In the report I have linked above, I ran 2 condemn and they were superb. However, against creature-light decks (or decks where the creatures do more than swing) the condemns have little function beyond gaining me life on occasion.

When I saw piracy charm I realized I had a new candidate. It's problem, as you may see, is that while it does a lot of things for the deck it doesn't do any of them terribly well. In the end, the versatility just proved too good to pass up.

The most common use for it, of course, is to kill random confidants, lackeys, and mana elves/birds. However, it can also act as a pseudo burn spell by giving one of my creatures +2 power, hopefully for the win. It can make one of my creatures unblockable too, if they happen to have islands.

Finally, it becomes useful against control or combo by forcing the discard of a card. While I spend a card and mana to force them to discard their worst card, it can often pay off. Firstly, if they are in topdeck mode I can force them to discard a card before they can play it. Secondly, dropping us both down a card can be beneficial by slowing my opponent down. The extra time (plus an extra card in the grave) can actually make beatdown-mode easier for the deck.

Really what I'm saying is, test the card before you dismiss it. If you test and don't like it, then so be it.

As for nantuko monastery, I've seriously considered cutting him. He can be great in certain cases, but in others he's downright terrible. I had to mull one of my games against Funkbrew because I had one land and it produced colorless mana...sigh. But still, monastery quickens the clock once you stabilize and can act as an additonal blocker if you need it. Plus, I have dreams of casting piracy charm on monastery and shredding a mystic enforcer (go random scenario that will never ever happen!).

Edit: Right, the land count. With monastery I think you may be right in that I need 18 lands. However, the times when I feel starved for land are very few and far between. Remember, portent is a lot better than mental note in finding land when you need it. Oh, and by the way, them targetting monastery with wasteland is great for me, since I then get to keep my colored mana. And yeah, stifle saves the day as well.

[Nightmare]

I've played everywhere from 17 to 19 lands, depending on Cantrip config, and while 17 was awesome for speed, I always felt like a single Wasteland would wreck my day. Consider Monestary -> Fetchland, and you'd be much better off. Of course, I've never run more than 2x Counterspell, either, so that could be a good slot for the 18th land.

[Solpugid]

Really? I've always found the counterspells to be stellar with this cantrip configuration. This build tends to make it to the late-game more often than MN versions, so having a hard counter for only UU (instead of 3UU) is really needed. That said, 4 was a liability as well.

I just played some more games today, and I think I'm going to do the monastery->fetch switch you guys are suggesting. I realize it doesn't matter too much, but would you recommend another blue fetch or my third heath?

[Happy Gilmore]

Really? I've always found the counterspells to be stellar with this cantrip configuration. This build tends to make it to the late-game more often than MN versions, so having a hard counter for only UU (instead of 3UU) is really needed. That said, 4 was a liability as well.

I just played some more games today, and I think I'm going to do the monastery->fetch switch you guys are suggesting. I realize it doesn't matter too much, but would you recommend another blue fetch or my third heath?

heath..gives you 4 ways to find your basic forest.

Monestary as one of your 17 lands is extremely balzy. I run them in the board as a two of for the mirror and against dystopia and random agro. But I would never replace a colored source in the main for one.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Why the fuck would anyone in their right mind ever run a basic Forest? I've heard the argument that all your Trops could be Wasted somehow because they resolved a Crucible or something and you don't run counters or Pithing Needles or anything, but that argument was conceived of and promoted by retards. Maybe I'm just inordinately lucky, but everytime I borrow someone's Gro deck to playtest I get the most amazing hands of;


Daze
Force of Will
Swords to Plowshares
Brainstorm
Serum Visions
Predict
FOREST! LAWLZ!


And I have to muck what would've been a hand of classical gas if that had been a land you could actually, you know, use.


I assume the Hatfields do it because they've got some basic forest art they really, really like, but what's everyone else's excuse?

[ForceofWill]

Well I was watching a guy play against Allan (scrumdogg) with no basic forests and heres the play eot mental note. Drop trop in gy. then Allan Extirpated the tropical.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Then the correct play is not to run terrible cards like Mental Note.

[Awesomator]

i dont know about that. I don't think the 17 land build can have a basic forest in it. If a player played 18-19 lands, they probably should run a basic forest.

[Solpugid]

While I agree that the 15-blue source build I was running was balzy (read: pretty much retarded) I rarely had any trouble with it. Assuming I switch out monastery for a heath, I will have even fewer troubles.

The reason the forest is in there is so I can have some permanent way of dropping creatures in the face of wasteland, though I suppose outside a lock it shouldn't be necassary. The other reason is that its an unhinged forest, which is just plain hot.

Now that you mention it, I suppose it doesn't need to be there. Maybe I'll stick the fourth trop in there tomorrow. If I do, I may decide to keep monastery...it really has been awesome for me.

And while I wouldn't go so far as to say mental note sucks, I will say I think the deck is better off without it. Portent is the greatest trash card ever.

[Citrus-God]

This deck only needs 16 Blue Sources to function well. Adding the extra Forest is just there to fight Wasteland, incase if they'd rather play that Needle on Vial rather than Wasteland/Ports.

This deck however is fine with 16 Lands at least. 18 is just there usually when you play less cantrips and need a land in the opening hand to function through. 17 is just there because you probably 12 Cantrips, so digging for lands and opening hands would be much easier to play. IMO, think somewhere between 16-18 is the right number.

[Awesomator]

Forest can force a mulligan if it's your only land, even with the card draw. Mental note is perfect in red thresh, but not meant for the more controlling white build since you drop most of your guys late game anyway.

[Citrus-God]

Forest can force a mulligan if it's your only land, even with the card draw. Mental note is perfect in red thresh, but not meant for the more controlling white build since you drop most of your guys late game anyway.

Red Thresh isnt really more aggressive by nature. Some Red Thresh decks plays the Control Role the best, but only in terms of Board Control. Burn can be used as reach, but is just really crappy against the mirror in general. If you look at all the Red Thresh builds that have become successful, only Pat McGregor's (SARCASTO) build has done well being the aggressor. The builds that did better than that build such as Wastedlife's (11 Burn Cards), and the Hatfield (4 Burn Cards) version love to play Control. Of course, Wastedlife's build is somewhat aggressive, but it's an aggressive deck that hardly runs out of fuel, and still maintains a better mana base than the generic Red Thresh because of it's high cantrip count. Mental Note is what makes Threshold aggressive generally. Mental Note Thresh is still a good deck. Ask Dan Spero (Bardo), he'll even say his deck embraces the more aggressive side of Threshold, and still maintain good control over the game. Running Mental Note alongside with Threshold creatures and a high density of control, is basically like the 12 LD Cards in old Extended Red Deck Wins. It bashes the opponent's face while using all of it's control to exhaust the opponent.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

This deck only needs 16 Blue Sources to function well. Adding the extra Forest is just there to fight Wasteland, incase if they'd rather play that Needle on Vial rather than Wasteland/Ports.

We just went over this. Why is this more relevant than having to mulligan because you open a hand with Forest as your only land? I'd rather run a goddamned Breeding Pool.

[Citrus-God]

We just went over this. Why is this more relevant than having to mulligan because you open a hand with Forest as your only land? I'd rather run a goddamned Breeding Pool.

Because a Wasteland can just cut you off from your Tempo to even play Cantrips or Men in the first place. I lost because I have been cut off from Green before, and that seems like a good enough reason to run it. In fact, Goblins is the only reason why the Forest is being ran, IMO. All the other match-ups, it shouldnt matter since you will be setting your Needles on Wasteland anyways, like against Red Death and Loam.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Saying, "A Wasteland can cut you off from tempo" ignores that you can do very little with just a Forest to begin with. Again, why not run another fetch or a Breeding Pool?

[Solpugid]

So, if 16 blue sources is enough, is the forest worth keeping at all? If I took it out, it would become a windswept heath and I would keep a maindeck monastery (I think).

I can understand the argument that if the forest was simply another green source (heath->trop) then wasteland wouldn't hurt so much. I can understand that fetching for it outside of a waste-lock is pretty worthless. However, back to basics, blood moon, and ruination do exist. They aren't common though, so is it worth preparing for them?

Also, to spark another debate alongisde the landbase one: stifle vs. pithing needle. I prefer stifle because it can surprise opponents as well as stop triggers from goblin ringleader and loaming shaman. However, preemptively needling tormod's crypt or wasteland is good as well.

[Happy Gilmore]

Forest can force a mulligan if it's your only land, even with the card draw. Mental note is perfect in red thresh, but not meant for the more controlling white build since you drop most of your guys late game anyway.

It a rare occurrence I assure you. I've been playing 17 lands with 1 basic forest since Big Arse 2 and what I find is that the hands with the forest in it and nothing else would not be keep able even if it were a trop. More often then not a hand with a single non basic will get you in trouble. I swear to you though, not having the forest will loose you games. I've tired it..and its not pretty.

Where it does matter is against combo. I have a horror story of playing against Spring Tide and loosing game one due to having a forest instead of a blue source (I had three lands but forest only taps for one and not three ). Against fast combo decks the first three cards I take out are 2x enforcer and 1x forest going to 16 lands. Your draws game 2 and 3 are beautiful and full of gas. I leave in the forest against solidarity because they don't normally go off till turn 4-8 and I want to hit every single land drop if possible.



Also, to spark another debate alongisde the landbase one: stifle vs. pithing needle. I prefer stifle because it can surprise opponents as well as stop triggers from goblin ringleader and loaming shaman. However, preemptively needling tormod's crypt or wasteland is good as well.


Before Philly no one was running needle in the main, but you could find stifle MD in some lists. It was good for the time but needle was outstanding. They fill very different rolls. And from testing lately I have not been all that impressed with stifle even out of the board against goblins/solidarity/storm combo. Its too week, too often to be main deckable.

[Citrus-God]

Saying, "A Wasteland can cut you off from tempo" ignores that you can do very little with just a Forest to begin with. Again, why not run another fetch or a Breeding Pool?

That is true, but sometimes Goblins topdecks crazy shaz, and they tend to throw LD at you like crazy sometimes. They'll find ways and lock you with their Wastelands and Ports. They can just Wasteland all your lands, then just throw Ports at you. Thing is, if Trops are all you have left, then that means finding a Needle can easily save your lone Forest from being wasted and still hold the fact basic lands cant be targeted by Wasteland. But I suppose you right, the Forest can easily be a 4th Tropical Island if needed be.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Again and again we can come back to the part where basic lands suck ass against Rishadan Port because they'll leave you the Forest you can't do jack with, and Forest sucks against Wasteland because... you again can't do anything with a Forest. Seriously. I'd rather just throw a Bauble in and go to 16 land.

[Citrus-God]

Again and again we can come back to the part where basic lands suck ass against Rishadan Port because they'll leave you the Forest you can't do jack with, and Forest sucks against Wasteland because... you again can't do anything with a Forest. Seriously. I'd rather just throw a Bauble in and go to 16 land.

It's better to see it Ported than Wasted. You can still use it on your upkeep and play Predict and/or BS. Even tap it for G just to play Naturalize on upkeep can be a good play. I'm going to try 4 Trops right now.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

It surely is. But when they Port your other land you're going to wish pretty damned well that that Forest was Wasteland'able.

[noobslayer]

Which Bauble would you consider? I don't know why, but that suggestion is quite intriguing.

[Mad Zur]

Forest is in the deck to let it play around Wasteland. Against Goblins, creatures are not only your win condition but also your primary defense and a source of virtual card advantage. Being able to cast them is absolutely vital. Often you need to plan for having a green source available one or more turns into the future, and doing so through Wasteland is important. For example, you may wish to play a Brainstorm, fetch a green source, and play a Mongoose on turn two, with the ability to play a second creature in the following turns. Or you might fetch first, play a Serum Visions and a Mongoose, with the desire to Predict on the following turn, but you know you'll want a green source in play to play ceatures later. These are situations in which you want a green source early that you can be assured will stay in play until later. There are also situations in which you could find another green source if the first is destroyed, but using your manipulation to find spells would be better.

It is true that Forest does not actually cast several of your spells. However, there are sixteen lands that do cast them, and the deck doesn't need any more. If I were to cut Forest, I would cut it for a spell, not another blue source. In fact, I often board out Forest against decks without Wasteland.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Yeah, that just seems bad to me. I'd rather run the Mishra's bauble. Or another Needle to pre-empt Waste or something. I never had any problems against Goblins in testing because I ran the card as another fetchland instead. Quite the opposite.

[Mad Zur]

Yeah, that just seems bad to me. I'd rather run the Mishra's bauble.
Okay...? That's not really an argument, so I guess I can't say anything.

Or another Needle to pre-empt Waste or something.Needle can't be fetched with Windswept Heath and costs mana instead of producing it.

I never had any problems against Goblins in testing because I ran the card as another fetchland instead. Quite the opposite.In my experience, Wasteland is very relevant and the ability to play around it is huge. Again, if I were to cut it, it would be for a spell, not a land.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Needle can't be fetched with Windswept Heath and costs mana instead of producing it.[quote]

If 16 land is enough to get by on, and the Forest is just to thwart Wasteland, why is this relevant?

[quote]In my experience, Wasteland is very relevant and the ability to play around it is huge. Again, if I were to cut it, it would be for a spell, not a land.

In my experience, Forest doesn't play around Wasteland, it means that if you have two lands, they will Waste the other and be glad that you can only play 7 cards in your deck with the land left to you.

Did you test the deck with a different land in that slot?

[Mad Zur]

Needle can't be fetched with Windswept Heath and costs mana instead of producing it.
If 16 land is enough to get by on, and the Forest is just to thwart Wasteland, why is this relevant?This deck relies on the efficiency of its cards. Costing mana is noticably less efficient than producing mana. Being fetchable with Windswept Heath is relevant because it gives you four times as many ways to find the card.

In my experience, Forest doesn't play around Wasteland,No, it doesn't. You have to play around Wasteland, and Forest is a tool that allows this.

it means that if you have two lands, they will Waste the other and be glad that you can only play 7 cards in your deck with the land left to you.Unless you play around Wasteland by fetching a basic Island instead of a nonbasic land, or finding a second blue source (which you are likely to want eventually anyway). In that case, you are now assured of having green mana, which is very important.

Did you test the deck with a different land in that slot?I'm not actually sure, but I know I've played with fifteen blue sources and found it not to be enough, and then with sixteen and found it to be enough. I've also played against a lot of decks with Wasteland and found Forest crucial to playing my spells. This is not merely my own opinion; I can't think of any list that has more blue sources than mine (though some lists have less). Would you care to go into detail regarding your testing with various configurations?

[Zach Tartell]

Playing with heath is janky in your anti-wasteland argument because it can't fetch a basic island, which is ALWAYS more important than having a basic forest. For real, dude. Basic forest is nice when you're in a wasteland-heavy meta, but it's far less important than having a blue source. I'd cut it for a second basic island.

[Citrus-God]

Playing with heath is janky in your anti-wasteland argument because it can't fetch a basic island, which is ALWAYS more important than having a basic forest. For real, dude. Basic forest is nice when you're in a wasteland-heavy meta, but it's far less important than having a blue source. I'd cut it for a second basic island.

Too bad the deck already has 2-3 basic islands...

[Mad Zur]

Playing with heath is janky in your anti-wasteland argument because it can't fetch a basic island, which is ALWAYS more important than having a basic forest. For real, dude. Basic forest is nice when you're in a wasteland-heavy meta, but it's far less important than having a blue source. I'd cut it for a second basic island.
That's not really correct. Suppose on turn three you have a Forest, a Tropical Island, and a Tundra. A Wasteland cannot cut you off of blue or green. They Waste the Tundra and you can still play draw and creatures. If the Forest was an Island, they could Waste the Tropical Island to prevent you from playing your creatures. Blue mana is more important than green mana but having both is better than having blue mana you don't need.

[Zach Tartell]

I play red gro, mostly, so my mana looks something like this:
4 volc
3 trop
basic forest
basic island x2
Blue Fetch x8

White gro doesn't really need a basic plains any more than red gro needs a basic mountain. I played it shortly, and had t his for my mana:
4 tundra
4 trop
2 island
7 blue fetch

Because white gro has to replace their "burn" spell with just more cantrip, you can drop down to 17 or even (gasp!) 16 land. I'm not such a big fan of white gro, because it lacks the reach of red gro. And, for some ridiculous reason, peple think that dropping the mages main board for an extra enforcer makes sense. I Think they're drunk.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

My experience? Playing around Wasteland sucks. For one thing, often you need double Blue, for either Counterspell or two cantrips at once; and that Forest was awful, as I said, in an opening hand, akin to a forced mulligan.


My experience is also that playing around Wasteland like this makes Rishadan Port kick your ass. Most of the deck costs 1. I'd rather have two trops and get one Wasted, than have a Forest and an Island and have either one get Ported.

That and with a basic island + basic forest you still can't cast StP.



That's not really correct. Suppose on turn three you have a Forest, a Tropical Island, and a Tundra. A Wasteland cannot cut you off of blue or green. They Waste the Tundra and you can still play draw and creatures. If the Forest was an Island, they could Waste the Tropical Island to prevent you from playing your creatures. Blue mana is more important than green mana but having both is better than having blue mana you don't need.

If the forest was another Trop in that scenario, they still couldn't cut you off of either Blue or Green with a Wasteland. Heck, if it was a Savannah at least they couldn't cut you off of any color.

[Bardo]

This is not merely my own opinion; I can't think of any list that has more blue sources than mine (though some lists have less).

I've experimented with a load of different land configs and have found the basic Forest to be awesome. I think the stability it provides, overall, compensates for the extremely rare position of having it be the only land in your opening seven.

[Mad Zur]

My experience? Playing around Wasteland sucks. For one thing, often you need double Blue, for either Counterspell or two cantrips at once;
Yeah, you want two blue sources. That's why there are sixteen of them in the deck. Sixteen is enough to function.

and that Forest was awful, as I said, in an opening hand, akin to a forced mulligan.Unless you have a good use for green mana or are playing against a deck with Wasteland.

My experience is also that playing around Wasteland like this makes Rishadan Port kick your ass. Most of the deck costs 1. I'd rather have two trops and get one Wasted, than have a Forest and an Island and have either one get Ported.You're still talking about it as a land slot, which is incorrect. With sixteen blue sources, I am comfortable with the deck's ability to find two of them. Again, I'm not sure where you're experience comes from, but my experience in testing and in tournaments for the past couple years says that Rishadan Port will target green sources. They can almost never cut you off of blue, so they target the next most important. In this situation, any extra green source helps you get through it.

That and with a basic island + basic forest you still can't cast StP.StP is far weaker than a creature, there are half as many of them, and you can even cast it in response to Wasteland.

If the forest was another Trop in that scenario, they still couldn't cut you off of either Blue or Green with a Wasteland. Heck, if it was a Savannah at least they couldn't cut you off of any color.I was responding to the suggestion that Forest should be replaced by Island. But yes, you are correct that sometimes you can just as easily run on nonbasics. That's why fetchlands are great and why there is only one Forest.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Yeah, you want two blue sources. That's why there are sixteen of them in the deck. Sixteen is enough to function.

Then another functional spell would be better.


Unless you have a good use for green mana or are playing against a deck with Wasteland.

No, it sucked regardless. Man cannot live off of Pithing Needles and unthreshed Mongeese alone.

[Mad Zur]

Then another functional spell would be better.
Unless you are worried about Wasteland, such as when you are playing against the most popular deck in the format.

No, it sucked regardless. Man cannot live off of Pithing Needles and unthreshed Mongeese alone.Oh, you mean if Forest is the only land. Sure, I'll mulligan 1.579% of the time for a card that lets me win through mana denial. By the way, another functional spell, as you suggest, would also require a mulligan in this situation.

[Solpugid]

Ok, here's a scenario that very well might come up:

You have two lands, one being a tundra, and are playing against goblins. On their turn they drop a wasteland and pop it to destroy land. If your second land is a trop, they will target that and cut you off of green mana. If your second land is a forest they will target the tundra and cut you off of both white and blue. Because we're only running 17 land, this can come up quite often (where you don't have immediate access to another land) and in this scenario trop is infinitely better because you will still be left with cantrip mana.

If your lands were island and forest the wasteland is worthless, but you are stuck with subpar land drops that severely limit your play options (as mentioned, you can't play 2 cantrips or a counterspell). Based solely on these examples, replacing the forest with a trop or fetch sounds better.

I understand that this comes up very infrequently, but I'm having a hard time imagining a scenario outside of a full wasteland-lock where that forest is any better for you (in the long-run). This is why I think I'll replace it with another blue fetch in my build. However, I have also found that 16 blue sources is enough, so that 17th land might remain monastery for me (which, while never casting anything on its own, will benefit me in the long run more than a forest will).

I've played this deck against multiple wastelands and even waste-lock with the forest in play and without the forest in play. I think the benefit of having one green source unwastelandable is negligible because if they have a waste-lock they're either not under pressure and you will lose, or they're under pressure from your creatures already in play and you'll win. Maybe my mindset on this is scewed, I don't know. But I think I'm dropping the forest from my list.

My only consideration now is, as I stated before, are people running BtoB or blood moon?

[Mad Zur]

If your lands were island and forest the wasteland is worthless, but you are stuck with subpar land drops that severely limit your play options (as mentioned, you can't play 2 cantrips or a counterspell). Based solely on these examples, replacing the forest with a trop or fetch sounds better.
Being cut off of the third color and Counterspell is much better than being cut off of green. Playing creatures is really important. If you only have two lands against Goblins and they have a Wasteland, you're better off if they're Island + Forest than any other combination. You're scenario illustrates that it if you are forced to rely on nonbasics, it is often correct to fetch additional nonbasics to play around Wasteland. However, in situations where you are not already relying on nonbasics, or in situations where you have more than two lands, Forest is extremely helpful.

[Citrus-God]

I've won a few games against Goblins, solely because they couldn't touch my Forest. They sat there with around 3 Wastelands, and 2 Ports while my Needle was on Ports. I had a couple Geese' and a Bear in play, as well as 3 Islands, a Forest, and the gamestate was at midgame. He was topdecking mana denial and couldnt throw it at me. He did open with a Vial, then went on to play Matron turns 3 and 4, and then a Ringleader. Let's just say they never resolved, and I was bashing him down. I won that game because of Needle, and because my Forest couldnt be touched by Wasteland. My opponent would've had the laste game on his side if I didnt fetch a basic forest.

[Happy Gilmore]

I've experimented with a load of different land configs and have found the basic Forest to be awesome. I think the stability it provides, overall, compensates for the extremely rare position of having it be the only land in your opening seven.

I think this is a good time to reiterate that one land (non-basic) hands are questionable regardless. If your keeping a hand with one Tropical Island as your only mana source think hard about why you're keeping it. If you keep that hand knowingly against goblins you have no right to win that game. Although, I admit there are exceptions, just not many.

[Citrus-God]

I think this is a good time to reiterate that one land (non-basic) hands are questionable regardless. If your keeping a hand with one Tropical Island as your only mana source think hard about why you're keeping it. If you keep that hand knowingly against goblins you have no right to win that game. Although, I admit there are exceptions, just not many.

It's true. You almost, always want that first turn Island, as it is very vital against Goblins. Even playing a 1st turn Forest has it's benefits against Goblins.

[Bardo]

It's true. You almost, always want that first turn Island, as it is very vital against Goblins. Even playing a 1st turn Forest has it's benefits against Goblins.

Third'd. Whenever I fan out my opening hand the first thing I look for is a blue fetchland or an Island. This is also why I run those two Polluted Deltas that few people have adopted. Because that first turn basic Island is one of the most critical parts of the early game.

[Citrus-God]

Third'd. Whenever I fan out my opening hand the first thing I look for is a blue fetchland or an Island. This is also why I run those two Polluted Deltas that few people have adopted. Because that first turn basic Island is one of the most critical parts of the early game.

It really is. I got around to testing your build, and I originally had 3 Heaths and 5 Blue fetches in there. I cut the 3rd Heath because of weak it was against Goblins, and the fact you really dont want that Basic Forest until midgame really. You'll probably cantrip/draw into it around then.
Those Blue fetches are even better against Goblins Post-Board enabling you to play spells like BEB and Stifles against them. Basically, anydeck that can take full advantage and capatalize on you right after an LD spell means that deck is powerful. Red Death and Goblins come to mind. If you let them walk all over you with just a "Wasteland," at least you have Basic Lands as an out. Even moreso against Goblins.

[Happy Gilmore]

It really is. I got around to testing your build, and I originally had 3 Heaths and 5 Blue fetches in there. I cut the 3rd Heath because of weak it was against Goblins, and the fact you really dont want that Basic Forest until midgame really. You'll probably cantrip/draw into it around then.
Those Blue fetches are even better against Goblins Post-Board enabling you to play spells like BEB and Stifles against them. Basically, anydeck that can take full advantage and capatalize on you right after an LD spell means that deck is powerful. Red Death and Goblins come to mind. If you let them walk all over you with just a "Wasteland," at least you have Basic Lands as an out. Even moreso against Goblins.

how did you find room for the 5th blue fetch?

4 Tundra
3 Trop
1 Forest
2 Island

That leaves 7 lots for fetches if you want to run 17 lands. Now if your running 18 I can see where you are coming from.

On a side note..has anyone tested Rain of Swords? It seems like jank I know, but why not. I only wish there was a better board sweeper than Crusade, WW hurts like nothing else.

[Bardo]

how did you find room for the 5th blue fetch?

4 Tundra
3 Trop
1 Forest
2 Island

That leaves 7 lots for fetches if you want to run 17 lands. Now if your running 18 I can see where you are coming from.

On a side note..has anyone tested Rain of Swords? It seems like jank I know, but why not. I only wish there was a better board sweeper than Crusade, WW hurts like nothing else.

I would think -1 Tundra +1 blue fetch.

My current land config:

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

My current anti-Goblin tech is Dueling Grounds, though I haven't played any games vs. Gobbos with it. And now that I've dropped the T Crusades (due to the WW problem you mention), I might reconsider the Plains slot.

[Happy Gilmore]

I would think -1 Tundra +1 blue fetch.

My current land config:

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

My current anti-Goblin tech is Dueling Grounds, though I haven't played any games vs. Gobbos with it. And now that I've dropped the T Crusades (due to the WW problem you mention), I might reconsider the Plains slot.

We tested Dueling Grounds briefly. Now that Krosan Grip is around that plan seems suspect. Plus you have to leave in the Enforcers to be effective.

[Bardo]

We tested Dueling Grounds briefly. Now that Krosan Grip is around that plan seems suspect. Plus you have to leave in the Enforcers to be effective.

I know we've been over this before (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=108605&postcount=315), but I really don't think you should be siding your Enforcers out in any event, Dueling Grounds or otherwise. Enforcer is an unlikely champ (and trump) in this match, as counter-intuitive as it would seem.

Also, the fear of Krosan Grip is not a good reason to not run DG, for one, they're only going to board it in if they know you're running enchantments (which few Thresh lists do) and really, I don't think it's a big deal. How many Gob lists are splashing Green in the first place (maybe 20-25%) and how many of them are running Krosan Grip?

[Citrus-God]

how did you find room for the 5th blue fetch?

4 Tundra
3 Trop
1 Forest
2 Island

That leaves 7 lots for fetches if you want to run 17 lands. Now if your running 18 I can see where you are coming from.

On a side note..has anyone tested Rain of Swords? It seems like jank I know, but why not. I only wish there was a better board sweeper than Crusade, WW hurts like nothing else.

My mana base is this right now...

3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath

and what you just mentioned.

I had seven fetches, just 2 Heaths.

I havent tested Rain of Swords... but I have tested Chill recently. It's amazing. You stop an active Vial, you basically won the game. Your opponent plays Chalice and has no Lackey or Vial in play, again, you've won. It's amazing with such a high cantrip count.

[Volt]

I havent tested Rain of Swords...

Rain of Blades (http://magiccards.info/8e/en/35.html) is what I think y'all are meaning to say.

I kinda like Bardo's Dueling Grounds tech, actually.

[Citrus-God]

I dunno... Chill is kinda awesome. It's not a big strain on your manabase, and it makes shutting things down easier. Just Needle the damn Vial, and your fine. Helmut even used Chill. Esp if you run Mental Note, you can actually walk all over your opponent's with ease, since your going to capatilize your opponent's over just one stupid Chill.:laugh:

[Happy Gilmore]

Rain of Blades (http://magiccards.info/8e/en/35.html) is what I think y'all are meaning to say.

I kinda like Bardo's Dueling Grounds tech, actually.

yep, thats what I meant. Anyway test Dueling Grounds and let me know what you think. As for keeping in Enforcers...I agree with you to some degree, but I can't confirm how good it is myself because I have been taking them out for as long as I can remember. There is no question in my mind though about leaving them in if I bring in DG.

[Solpugid]

Do NOT board out enforcers. I've been leaving them in against everything except combo and they have been great.

[Mad Zur]

Enforcer isn't bad against Goblins, but in my opinion, everything else in the deck is better (assuming no Mage). Cutting draw is something you can only do to a limited extent, because you'll need to find your sideboard cards and possibly recover from Crypt. You can only trim counters so much, as well, since they have a good amount of must-counters already and are probably boarding into more. If I board six cards against Goblins, I generally take out both Enforcers, one Counterspell, and three draw spells (although I still don't know which three).

Enforcer will win games sometimes, but it will also get stuck in your hand or shuffled away because you can't play it, where another draw spell would have found you a creature you can play or the mana you need, or a counter would have bought you some more time to find those things. Facing mana denial, I'd rather have cards that find me more lands to play through it than cards that cost four. Against early pressure, I'd like to be able to answer Lackeys and Vials and get my draw engine going; Enforcer doesn't help with either.

Werebear does almost everything that Enforcer does in that matchup, so I'd rather have spells that can get me Werebear because they can also help out in a lot of situations where Enforcer is poor.

[Volt]

Werebear does almost everything that Enforcer does in that matchup,

Except fly. And that's the most important thing about it.

[Bardo]

Except fly. And that's the most important thing about it.

In a nutshell, that's it. Goblins can dump so many guys onto the board that they can often afford to make 1-for-2 trades, favoring Thresh, and still be ahead. In ground-locked quagmire situations such as those, Thresh is going to be a sitting duck until Goblins can finally alpha strike, losing a bunch of their guys in the process, but getting you within SGC/Fanatic burn-out range.

Also, even if Crypt is activated, having a 3/3 is *far* better than a pile of shitty 1/1s.

In short, Enforcer for prez. Though it took me a while to come around to this conclusion, it doesn't sound like an obvious solution to the problem at hand.

[Mad Zur]

In a nutshell, that's it. Goblins can dump so many guys onto the board that they can often afford to make 1-for-2 trades, favoring Thresh, and still be ahead.
I can remember a single game I lost in which this happened, and I'm fairly sure it was a result of poor play on my part. If I'm in a position to be attacking in the first place, it makes little difference to me whether the opponent takes the damage or throws his cards away.

In ground-locked quagmire situations such as those, Thresh is going to be a sitting duck until Goblins can finally alpha strike, losing a bunch of their guys in the process, but getting you within SGC/Fanatic burn-out range.Losing two or three guys significantly delays an alpha strike, unless they had enough to alpha strike already.

Again, I'm not saying Enforcer is bad, but that the alternatives are better. What do you take out over Enforcer, and why?

[Bardo]

Again, I'm not saying Enforcer is bad, but that the alternatives are better. What do you take out over Enforcer, and why?

Well, I remove my Meddling Magi, of course. :) I also remove my maindeck Explosives which are kind of shit against Goblins and the staggered cc of their threats. I'll also board out a CSpell or Force or Daze, depending if I'm on the play or not.

[Citrus-God]

Enforcer isn't bad against Goblins, but in my opinion, everything else in the deck is better (assuming no Mage). Cutting draw is something you can only do to a limited extent, because you'll need to find your sideboard cards and possibly recover from Crypt. You can only trim counters so much, as well, since they have a good amount of must-counters already and are probably boarding into more. If I board six cards against Goblins, I generally take out both Enforcers, one Counterspell, and three draw spells (although I still don't know which three).

I used that boarding actually one time, and I ended up losing very badly. I sided out Predict, Portent, and SV. That didnt so well. I tried many other ways of boarding out draw, and now I am giving up that idea. There were many times I wished those Stifles and BEBs were Cantrips, since I topdeck them and find them weak. Stifles may go back in my board, but my disatisfaction for BEB for being narrow is what's keeping me from playing it.
I realized most games I lost was because I boarded out draw, and I was in the mood to just stop trusting people on SB options and boarding plans and just tried my own.... I had trouble finding threats while my opponent was in a weak position, so I couldnt capitalize him in time to seal the game. I tried your UGr "Clasm" plan with Tivadar's Crusade and tried not to board out draw, since it helps you dig for Crusade and many other things. I ditched that plan, and thought about the many options I have. I looked at Helmut Summersburger's board one night, and thought about how odd Chill looked. I tried that boaridng plan, and I simply loved it. It buys you all the time you need to win. If you cant get a threat to seal the game, play another Chill and basically give yourself another few turns to stall. Things like Tranquil Domain is a problem. I've tested against REB, it's not going to hurt you much. You really only need a couple guys and a Chill out to win. Let him destory it, play a Ringleader, and make it worthless by playing Chill. SCG is not a problem IMO, unless there are other Goblins in play.

My boarding plan at the moment is;

1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Counterspell
2 Mystic Enforcer

4 Chill

My current build is still the same Maindeck as the Hatfields, but I swapped
a Portent, and a Serum Visions for two Tops. I have the 3rd Top and the Counterbalance plan in the SB.

I encourage everybody to give Chill a chance. It's very good if you answer Vial, and gives you much better control over the board... much better than what Red tried to do.

[Adan]

Soooo, I want to revive this thread a littlebit, because I have 1 question:

Here in my location, there is a trend spreading out. Some people begin to play Jotun Grunt in the Maindeck. But that already won 2 tournaments (consisted of 9 people xD).

On one side, this Idea sound AWFUL to me, but on the other side, it somehow tickles me.

He's an undercosted beater, he restores the Quality of your library when you got more threshold than you need and he keeps the opponents Graveyard empty.

What do you think?

[Citrus-God]

Soooo, I want to revive this thread a littlebit, because I have 1 question:

Here in my location, there is a trend spreading out. Some people begin to play Jotun Grunt in the Maindeck. But that already won 2 tournaments (consisted of 9 people xD).

On one side, this Idea sound AWFUL to me, but on the other side, it somehow tickles me.

He's an undercosted beater, he restores the Quality of your library when you got more threshold than you need and he keeps the opponents Graveyard empty.

What do you think?

He is, IMO, Win-More and Counter-Productive. Let me explain, early in the game, you are stripping your own creatures of Threshold, so his weak there. Once you do have more then the above-average Threshold amount in the graveyard, his just another Werebear.... you should already be winning by then. Against Goblins, if Goblins chumb blocks enough creatures to buy enough time to decide wether you want Grunt to live or die. When you reach so late in the game, wouldnt you rather have a Mystic Enforcer? His great, but he needs a deck to himself that isnt reliant on the Graveyard. WUb Fish and Miracle Grow are great decks that have Grunt in as a beatstick.

[Kyachi]

If you're looking for a better creature (and I'm assuming that you are as you experimenting), I've had success with Serra Avenger. The idea of threshold is incidental- The fact that werebear, Mystic Enforcer and Nimble Mongoose all fit very well into the deck is incidental. If one were to find another 3/3 that can't be killed for G, or another 6/6 flyer with some other relevant ability, those would be played instead.
Along those lines, it is also common knowledge that one (generally) shies away from played unthresholded creatures before one is in a position to lock up the game (turn four or whatever). With that in mind, Serra Avenger fits very well into the deck for the following reasons:

1- It decreases the odds of terrible Warchief into Lackey/Alpha Strike plays. By having Vigilance, the Avenger is always around to block, unlike Mongoose and friends. It applies a similar clock as Werebear, but plays D as well.

2- Despite it's casting cost, it is surprisingly easy to play. If a player has a choice, the conventional wisdom is to waste the Threshold player off of Green, not white. It usually is the right call because it keeps you off of blockers, but not with this guy.

3- It isn't dependent on the Graveyard. This seems really obvious, but it huge anyways. ALWAYS having a creature to come out of the gates swinging on turn four, threshold be damned, is really nice.

4- Often times the mirror comes down to who gets more Mystic Enforcers to stick, because the ground gets to clogged quickly. Having more flyers is awesome.

There are a few downsides-

It can't be deployed early if you need something to absorb a hit from Goblin Lackey.

It can be worse in the Mirror due to it's inability to survive a Mongoose hit, unlike Werebear. (Not to mention that it doesn't trade with the 'bear)

So? Berate me on my choice?

[noobslayer]

I'll try to answer each point in turn.

1. It can help prevent alpha strikes yes, but if goblins wins on their third turn (which is possible), avenger has done nothing for you.

2. Goblins usually wastes and ports my white sources to nail StP, and post board (if I have it, though many do it out of practice) to stop Crusade.

3. Meh. Jotun Grunt, Loaming Shaman, and other candidates to be considered can say the same.

4. I can't say much here, other than more enforcers could do the same thing and better. Also, losing a board full of threats to an EE set at two is just awful.

[Citrus-God]

I'll try to answer each point in turn.

1. It can help prevent alpha strikes yes, but if goblins wins on their third turn (which is possible), avenger has done nothing for you.

They shouldnt even have a Lackey resolve in the first place anyways. Serra Avenger is in place of Werebear; Bears cant block Lackey. If a Lacky triggers, your done anyway.



2. Goblins usually wastes and ports my white sources to nail StP, and post board (if I have it, though many do it out of practice) to stop Crusade.


The new day and age of UGw Gro is to run Stifles and BEB. Crusades can be good, the the cost of WW is too much.


3. Meh. Jotun Grunt, Loaming Shaman, and other candidates to be considered can say the same.

Loaming Shaman has a weak body and Jotun Grunt is counter-productive.


4. I can't say much here, other than more enforcers could do the same thing and better. Also, losing a board full of threats to an EE set at two is just awful.

Enforcer's cc is 4, whereas Avenger is 2. The fact that you play her on turn 4 allows you to use the spare two mana into investing in other things, such as counters or cantrips.

[Lego]

Serra Avenger is in place of Werebear; Bears cant block Lackey.

Please explain why Werebear can't block Lackey.....?

I don't like the restrictiveness of Avenger, especially if she's replacing Werebear. Sometimes you need to sacrifice a Werebear early on to take out a Lackey, or drop one to discourage early beating. You can't do that with Avenger, and on her own she's only a 7 turn clock (where Bear is a 5, pun intended.)

[Solpugid]

YES: BEB (I prefer hydroblast) and stifle work wonders against goblins. as for crusade, I've actually never tested it, since I always liked my board plan.

I tested jotun grunt as well, but in place of 2 of the meddling mage slots of my new build. He almost never could come out safely until his size wasn't that impressive anymore. Don't run him maindeck.

Why are you even looking for better creatures? Mongoose, bear, enforcer, and mage are perfect for the maindeck, especially since you will almost never be hit with grave-hate first game. After that, side in grunt if you have to (I often side in one or two in place of bears).

[Ragnarok]

There are a lot of discussion running on forums about the cantrips threshold should run, mental note over predict or vice versa. Maybe 1 or 2 sleight of hand?. I don't think any of this is just better or worse it just has to do with what you like. What i think is interesting is thresholds sideboard, and I still don't know what could be the best or close to a very good sideboard. Sometimes i think 15 cards is not enough:tongue: . For a while i have been wondering why threshold builds play armageddon side, from my opinion you don't want to waste your own land because of you fragile manabase and it is very hard to support the 4 mana. The same with wasteland sideboard. I will post my sideboard here and want to here you opinion.

3x Worship (This card has won matches for me but most of the time burn or goblins, maybe i could cut this one for 3 chill)
3x Naturalize
3x Pithing Needle (because i play 3 stifle main)
2x Jotun Grunt ( i played it 3x SB before but i never boarded him 3 times only 2 times)
4x Hydroblast ( is good everything that is red)

[aTn]

Armageddon is there for the combo and control match-ups. In particular, Armageddon is often game-breaking against Solidarity (Landstill, etc.). ***** is meant to function on a low number of mana sources (and you run 4 creatures that bare arms but don't die do Armageddon, haha... kick me). Until now, in the games I played it wasn't that hard to get 4 mana to cast geddon.

As for Naturalize in the SB, I'd probably replace some of them with Krosan Grip.

Concerning Stifle in the maindeck, I'd rather run Needles since they take care 'permanently' of equipment, Wasteland, Vial, Mongrel, etc. which tend to be more present in my meta than situations where I'd rather have Stifle. Sure Stifle is fun against Goblins, but then again, I have greater problems playing game 2 (and possibly 3) than game 1, so I'd run it in my SB (if I chose to run it at all).

[Ragnarok]

The mainboard stifle saved my ass lots of times it is useless against solidarity i never try to stifle brainfreeze they have to many cards at hand and it is to easy to disrupt. But stifle-ing Tendrils and Empty the warrens works great. Needle doesn't stop those targets. Game 1 it is random good for wasteland and other activated and/or triggered abilities, game 2 boarding the stifle out for needles is not what your opponent expects and game 3 they don't know what you are doing boarding your needle out for stifles or not. It also makes it easier to analyze the best needle targets.

[Volt]

The mainboard stifle saved my ass lots of times it is useless against solidarity i never try to stifle brainfreeze they have to many cards at hand and it is to easy to disrupt. But stifle-ing Tendrils and Empty the warrens works great. Needle doesn't stop those targets. Game 1 it is random good for wasteland and other activated and/or triggered abilities, game 2 boarding the stifle out for needles is not what your opponent expects and game 3 they don't know what you are doing boarding your needle out for stifles or not. It also makes it easier to analyze the best needle targets.

Yeah, Stifle is simply amazing against TES and Iggy. Against Solidarity, you aim it at their fetch-lands. Every time you destroy a land, you buy yourself at least a turn.

[Citrus-God]

Please explain why Werebear can't block Lackey.....?

I don't like the restrictiveness of Avenger, especially if she's replacing Werebear. Sometimes you need to sacrifice a Werebear early on to take out a Lackey, or drop one to discourage early beating. You can't do that with Avenger, and on her own she's only a 7 turn clock (where Bear is a 5, pun intended.)

Because they hate 8-10 cards to remove your Werebear with, and those cards are Fanatics and Gempalms, and even perhaps Swords as well. Those cards cant be Dazed (if you opponent dropped a land that turn), and it's very hard to counter Gempalm. It's not to say it's an absolute truth, but it's how I see it as vaunerable at the beginning of the game.

You need Needles maindecked. If you cant fight Goblins, you use it against Equipment based decks, Midgame decks like RGSA and The Rock, or calling Wasteland and/or Shade agaisnt Red Death. Stifles are good, but cant stopp pumping Ringleaders chaning eachother like theres no tomorrow, meanwhile you have a full grip of hard counters waiting to trap them.

Stifles are good, but IMO, very situational. It's good against Combo and Goblins, and that's it. It's rather weak, since the most it can do outside those MUs is pitch to FoW, or Stifle a fetch. Your Combo MU is already in your favor via Mage, and even without Mage, and you run cantrips in place of them, it's still in your favor.

[Volt]

Stifles are good, but cant stopp pumping Ringleaders chaning eachother like theres no tomorrow, meanwhile you have a full grip of hard counters waiting to trap them.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, but Stifle's number one target in the Goblin matchup is Ringleader.



Stifles are good, but IMO, very situational. It's good against Combo and Goblins, and that's it. It's rather weak, since the most it can do outside those MUs is pitch to FoW, or Stifle a fetch. Your Combo MU is already in your favor via Mage, and even without Mage, and you run cantrips in place of them, it's still in your favor.

True, Stifles are situational, but they're good more often than you think. Against RGBSA (a matchup where Stifle initially seems next to useless), I have won games by stifling Flametongue and Boneshredder cip triggers. Even stifling a Survival activation can buy you the turn you need to win. Granted, Needle naming Survival is the best thing in that matchup, but my point remains. Against Affinity, stifling a modular trigger can be amazing. I won a game against Angel Stompy the other day by stifling the life gain from an Angel, which allowed me to attack for the win on the next turn. There are lots of random situations where Stifle can be a devastating tempo play that your opponent just doesn't see coming. Again, I'm not saying that Stifle is better than Needle in all situations; I'm just saying it's not 'dead' as often as some people make it out to be.

Btw, is the matchup against TES really all that great, even with maindeck Meddling Mages? While the Mages are certainly useful, I find Stifle to be the single best thing to have in that matchup.

[Citrus-God]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, but Stifle's number one target in the Goblin matchup is Ringleader.

Well, if you look at it, if you run Stifles, it's usually a 3-of. That leaves 6-7 hard counters left, and 3 Dazes. With an active Vial on the board, you will have trouble establishing control as Matrons lead to Ringleaders and SCGs.




True, Stifles are situational, but they're good more often than you think. Against RGBSA (a matchup where Stifle initially seems next to useless), I have won games by stifling Flametongue and Boneshredder cip triggers. Even stifling a Survival activation can buy you the turn you need to win. Granted, Needle naming Survival is the best thing in that matchup, but my point remains. Against Affinity, stifling a modular trigger can be amazing. I won a game against Angel Stompy the other day by stifling the life gain from an Angel, which allowed me to attack for the win on the next turn. There are lots of random situations where Stifle can be a devastating tempo play that your opponent just doesn't see coming. Again, I'm not saying that Stifle is better than Needle in all situations; I'm just saying it's not 'dead' as often some people make it out to be.

It's true, against every deck, you have Stifle something, but that thing you Stifled sometimes isnt enough to stop them from recovering from it. Something like Needle is perfect disruption allowing you to capitalize on them while they're in their weak point. But however, I love the points you made of Stifle coming in handy, but I can add in what Needles can do in that MU...

Against Survival shuts down it's namesake, against Angel Stompy you shut down those Jittes, SoFI, Moms, and (did) shut downa Parallax Waves, against Affinity it shuts down Plating and Ravager, and sometimes Vial to keep it from going nuts. It does so much for you, and I've won so many games. But Stifle is still a good card to put in the maindeck though.


Btw, is the matchup against TES really all that great, even with maindeck Meddling Mages? While the Mages are certainly useful, I find Stifle to be the single best thing to have in that matchup.

It takes multiple Mages to take down TES. Stifle is probably the best thing you can possible have at the moment. I'd personally cut the 4 Mages for another Enforcer and 3 Stifles, but that's just me...

[Radley]

What can you do with your stifles against TES? I'd rather play stifles and meddling mage and won't remove meddling from the maindeck for stifle.

[troopatroop]

What can you do with your stifles against TES? I'd rather play stifles and meddling mage and won't remove meddling from the maindeck for stifle.

Tendrils or Empty the Warrens? Their win conditions that often have 9 cards to set them up, resulting in massive card advantage when they're Stifled?

[Citrus-God]

What can you do with your stifles against TES? I'd rather play stifles and meddling mage and won't remove meddling from the maindeck for stifle.

Stifles only serves one function here, and it's just stopping Storm, and that is about it. The whole deck should already be equiped to fight TES already, with MM or not.

[Adan]

Stifles only serves one function here, and it's just stopping Storm, and that is about it. The whole deck should already be equiped to fight TES already, with MM or not.

But with meddling Mage you are already prepared for TES a lot, especially when you are running 4 of them in the mainboard (what I would do if your Meta is full of TES). But I wouldn't maindeck Stifle only because you want to beat TES. I would go on running Pithing Needle as it got more of an allrounder.
Because Stifle has only 1 purpose and I think that's not enough.

[Radley]

But with meddling Mage you are already prepared for TES a lot, especially when you are running 4 of them in the mainboard (what I would do if your Meta is full of TES). But I wouldn't maindeck Stifle only because you want to beat TES. I would go on running Pithing Needle as it got more of an allrounder.
Because Stifle has only 1 purpose and I think that's not enough.

Actually, you can stall your opponent's LED and/or infernal tutor(if allowed to target hellbent). Is threshold also a triggered ability? Is yes, stifle is also good against it.

Personally, I don't think stifle is all that good against storm, they will usually have some more mana floating to continue casting till they get another kill card.

If I can play meddling mage, stifle and pithing needle, then it's better.

[overlord95]

Actually, you can stall your opponent's LED and/or infernal tutor(if allowed to target hellbent).No you actually cant stop either of those with stifle. LED is a mana abilty and someone correct me here if im wrong but hellbent is a replacement effect that checks upon resolution.

Is threshold also a triggered ability? Is yes, stifle is also good against it.******** is a static ability and hence cant be stifled.
Personally, I don't think stifle is all that good against storm, they will usually have some more mana floating to continue casting till they get another kill card.These type of situations tend to only happen if your opponet is playing Solidarity and even then if your opponet is at the point in there combo where there Brain Freezeing you probably already lost the game anyways.

If I can play meddling mage, stifle and pithing needle, then it's better.Can you explain how Stifle becomes better when your playing Mage and Needle.

[Radley]

Are you just messing about? Read my last post again and maybe you can understand it. It's better to play stifle, meddling mage and pithing needle than just one of them. It's like packing in more combo disruption but as you said that stifle is useless against LED and other stuffs then you should side it out for pithing needles.

IGGy pop gets 2 tendrils before killing opponent. TES I guess does the same or combination of empty the warren/tendrils.

[Ragnarok]

I tested it for a long time with 4 stifles but that is over-kill it is useless but 3 is enough, the card is never dead and you can pitch it on a fow. But what about umezawa's jitte maindeck just 1 random? I haven't tested it yet, but i am considering it. In U/G/w threshold it gives you a better aggro match up, because in general U/G/w threshold is more control than U/G/r threshold. When it resolves it keeps your mages easier alive it could make them even a big blocker. And it makes your enforcers even more dangerous. So what do you guys think of that?

[overlord95]

Are you just messing about? Read my last post again and maybe you can understand it. It's better to play stifle, meddling mage and pithing needle than just one of them. No im actually not just messing about.

Actually, you can stall your opponent's LED and/or infernal tutor(if allowed to target hellbent). Is threshold also a triggered ability? Is yes, stifle is also good against it.

Personally, I don't think stifle is all that good against storm, they will usually have some more mana floating to continue casting till they get another kill card.

If I can play meddling mage, stifle and pithing needle, then it's better.No where in this post does it explain why stifle is more valueable then it already is in this match up becasue you are playing Needle and Mage. If what your trying to get at is it adds more redundancy to the deck I fail to see how Needle is at all of any value in any storm based combo match up.


It's like packing in more combo disruption but as you said that stifle is useless against LED and other stuffs then you should side it out for pithing needles.Pithing Needle is just awful in the combo match up they have few(all of which are fetch lands)to zero targets. On a side note Pithing Needle cant stop LED sence its a mana ability(If your really hard pressed to stop LED you could try Null Rod:rolleyes:)


IGGy pop gets 2 tendrils before killing opponent. TES I guess does the same or combination of empty the warren/tendrils.One of the beauties of ******** is that it combines a quick clock with lots of disruption, in the majority of situations against decks like these is that they dont have the luxury of time to set up something like double Tendrills/ETW.

EDIT:

But what about jitte maindeck just 1 random? I haven't tested it yet but i am considering it. When it resolves it keeps your mages easier alive it could make them even a big blocker. And it makes your enforcers even more dangerous. So what do you guys think of that?I would really love to play Jitte in ******** but the problem with this plan is that your only playing 10 creatures(4 Bears, 4 Goose, and 2 Enforcers) and 14 if you count mage and even then you cant strap a Jitte onto a Goose (this brings the total # of Jitteable creatures down to 6 without Mage and 10 with Mage). On the Enforcer note if you resovled Super Man Jitte is just over kill at that point.
In U/G/w threshold it gives you just a better aggro match up, because in general U/G/w threshold is more control than U/G/r threshold.If your plaing NoVa style ******** your only replaceing the Swords for Bolts, Enforcer for Dragon, and make the apporiate changes to the mana base. No where in this transaction does this make the deck more aggro the its counter parts.

[Radley]

I fail. Null rod it is then.

I was saying it is better to play lots of combo disruption instead of using 1. I hope you understand that.:eek:

[overlord95]

I was saying it is better to play lots of combo disruption instead of using 1. I hope you understand that.:eek:I can understand that, but the problem with playing more disruption comeing out of the side board is the fact that your just wasteing spaces for a match up where your already favored to win, as opposed to playing cards that can potentially help you in match ups where you aren't favored.

[Ragnarok]

You are right about the fact that it in some in you favor, but the problem with TES and also with Spanish inquisition is that it is to fast to build up a hand with counters it all depends on you first hand, playing against solidarity gives you enough to time to build up your hand. And if you win the die roll versus one of the two first mentioned decks and you play a blue based land, go. Then stifle is going to safe your ass, more often than you should think. Like i said before stifle mainboard is never a dead card. I don't think it is a waste of space if you play G2 and you boarded your needles in and you still kept you stifles inboard then you can paralyze in some cases a whole deck.

[Radley]

I agree. Stifle is never a dead card almost all decks. Against goblins, stifle is really effective because there's alot of cards you can use it against. Wastelad, matron, ringleader, aether vial, modular of affinity, Fetchlands, and the list goes on..

[Ragnarok]

I tested it for a long time with 4 stifles but that is over-kill it is useless but 3 is enough, the card is never dead and you can pitch it on a fow. But what about umezawa's jitte maindeck just 1 random? I haven't tested it yet, but i am considering it. In U/G/w threshold it gives you a better aggro match up, because in general U/G/w threshold is more control than U/G/r threshold. When it resolves it keeps your mages easier alive it could make them even a big blocker. And it makes your enforcers even more dangerous. So what do you guys think of that?

But what about this?

[Bardo]

I agree. Stifle is never a dead card almost all decks. Against goblins, stifle is really effective because there's alot of cards you can use it against. Wastelad, matron, ringleader, aether vial, modular of affinity, Fetchlands, and the list goes on..

Obviously, Stifle is a fine card, but it's not the be-all, end-all many are making it out to be. Principally, unless you're using it on a fetchland, it's purely reactive. You need to have it in hand, with mana open and a relevant trigger on the stack to counter something.

I'm not saying that Stifling a Ringleader or Matron isn't sweet, but you're still just barely breaking even on the trade. In most cases, you still have to contend with whatever created the trigger in the first place. SGC will still hit the board and can nug you, Ringleader is still going swing, Matron is still on the board, Incinerator will still draw a card (you can Stifle the card draw trigger or the 'kill a guy' trigger, but not both), etc. The main thing that Stifle nets you on occasion is a bit of tempo, as it often makes Goblins' plays mana-inefficient. Like a 1/1 for 2R? Not so good. A hasty 2/2 for 3R? Ditto.

Thresh is already strong against most forms of combo (particularly the ones that run MD Meddling Mage), so I don't know how much more overboard the deck needs to go to retain its edge. Stifling fetchlands seems like random gravy, since the deck runs no other form of LD, unlike Landstill which can use Stifle much more effectively on that front in conjunction with Wasteland, with or without Crucible.

Anyway, those are just some thoughts on Stifle. It's never "bad," but often never "great" (unlike Daze, etc.)--just serviceable, which I'm not sure is what we need.

This said, I do have a few in my Sideboard from a few months back--but I haven't played the deck in the last few months--I'm mostly playing U/G/B decks these days.

[Happy Gilmore]

Obviously, Stifle is a fine card, but it's not the be-all, end-all many are making it out to be. Principally, unless you're using it on a fetchland, it's purely reactive. You need to have it in hand, with mana open and a relevant trigger on the stack to counter something.

I'm not saying that Stifling a Ringleader or Matron isn't sweet, but you're still just barely breaking even on the trade. In most cases, you still have to contend with whatever created the trigger in the first place. SGC will still hit the board and can nug you, Ringleader is still going swing, Matron is still on the board, Incinerator will still draw a card (you can Stifle the card draw trigger or the 'kill a guy' trigger, but not both), etc. The main thing that Stifle nets you on occasion is a bit of tempo, as it often makes Goblins' plays mana-inefficient. Like a 1/1 for 2R? Not so good. A hasty 2/2 for 3R? Ditto.

Thresh is already strong against most forms of combo (particularly the ones that run MD Meddling Mage), so I don't know how much more overboard the deck needs to go to retain its edge. Stifling fetchlands seems like random gravy, since the deck runs no other form of LD, unlike Landstill which can use Stifle much more effectively on that front in conjunction with Wasteland, with or without Crucible.

Anyway, those are just some thoughts on Stifle. It's never "bad," but often never "great" (unlike Daze, etc.)--just serviceable, which I'm not sure is what we need.

This said, I do have a few in my Sideboard from a few months back--but I haven't played the deck in the last few months--I'm mostly playing U/G/B decks these days.

Stifle does nothing to slow down TES/Iggy pop/Solidarity before they use their finishing spell. Solidarity at this point should have enough counters and Remands that it doesn't matter, TES/Iggy pop can prevent you from using Stifle in the first place (Layline/Chant/Duress). The best match up for stifle is actually against Goblins, but even there it is mediocre. I used to think that Stifle was the best spell besides MM against combo, but Counterbalance has proven to be just sick. If it resolves with a Top in play it doesn't even matter if they have a Defense Grid. Not to mention that countering spells with Counterbalance is pure card advantage and does not add to storm.

To be honest I have even been tempted to run the Counterbalance engine in the main deck over the counterspells.

[Bardo]

To be honest I have even been tempted to run the Counterbalance engine in the main deck over the counterspells.

Yep, me too. Counterspell has always been my least favorite counter in UGW Thresh and I've considered adding in two Counterbalance in their place for a few weeks after I saw the success of it in Mad Zur's UGR

U/G/w Threshold with Counterbalance

4 Serum Visions
4 Mental Note
4 Brainstorm

4 Force of Will
3 Daze

3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
4 Meddling Mage
1 Mystic Enforcer

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

For those who hate Mental Note, just replace it with Portent or whatever.

Or maybe you can put the pieces in the sideboard. Dunno. Thoughts?

[Anarky87]

Yep, me too. Counterspell has always been my least favorite counter in UGW Thresh and I've considered adding in two Counterbalance in their place for a few weeks after I saw the success of it in Mad Zur's UGR

U/G/w Threshold with Counterbalance

4 Serum Visions
4 Mental Note
4 Brainstorm

4 Force of Will
3 Daze

3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
4 Meddling Mage
1 Mystic Enforcer

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

For those who hate Mental Note, just replace it with Portent or whatever.

Or maybe you can put the pieces in the sideboard. Dunno. Thoughts?

For awhile I was trying out just a straight port of MadZur's red thresh with the Counterbalance pieces in the board, doing the -1 Vision -1 Portent for 2 Tops MD, because I didn't like losing StP and Enforcer. The only thing I then didn't like was that white has no real good answer to Goblins outside of just boarding in a bunch of Hydro/BEB's and Stifles or hoping they don't keep you off WW for a Sorcery speed Crusade.

I haven't tried Dueling Grounds or Crawlspace, but it seems they could just amass an army and ping you out with SGC, which you would have to Needle or StP. It would also clog up the ground, meaning you would have to hope Enforcer shows up and doesn't get Incinerated. I like Pyroclasms ability to just erase their board so you can beat through.

[Radley]

Yep, me too. Counterspell has always been my least favorite counter in UGW Thresh and I've considered adding in two Counterbalance in their place for a few weeks after I saw the success of it in Mad Zur's UGR

U/G/w Threshold with Counterbalance

4 Serum Visions
4 Mental Note
4 Brainstorm

4 Force of Will
3 Daze

3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
4 Meddling Mage
1 Mystic Enforcer

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

For those who hate Mental Note, just replace it with Portent or whatever.

Or maybe you can put the pieces in the sideboard. Dunno. Thoughts?

Do you think enlightened tutor should be fitted in the deck? It can tutor a counterbalance or divining top. So maybe you can make it like 2 counterbalance, 2 divining top, 2 enlightened tutor.

[Bardo]

Do you think enlightened tutor should be fitted in the deck? It can tutor a counterbalance or divining top. So maybe you can make it like 2 counterbalance, 2 divining top, 2 enlightened tutor.

I'm not a fan of the card-disadvantage tutors in a deck like this to begin with; but I considered Trinket Mage, vis-a-vis Top, Explosives and maybe a lone Pithing Needle in there as well. That should be tested at some point, but I don't see the need to explore ETutor.

But honestly, in trying to make the deck too kind to Counterbalance, I'm afraid of weakening its overall power.

[Citrus-God]

@Bardo: I think you should cut Mages. Counterbalance does everything Meddling Mage does now, and Meddling Mage and Counterbalance in the same deck just seem kinda win-more. I'd like to see the 4th Daze in this deck, as it can also be quite awesome as well, since it gives you a very strong early game edge, and the fact Mental Note compliments the Dazes very well. I also like it right now because you have 11 ways to find the pieces and set-up the Counterbalance combo, and 8 ways to protect it while your tapped out. And since your you'd rather tap yourself out to play cantrips to aseemble stuff rather than play your Meddling Mage and rely on your next topdeck being something random. I will admit, it's usually better to have Mage than Counterbalance against Goblins.


But if you must know, my project right now is a UGw Mental Note Thresh deck.... no really, and it use's Counterbalance maindecked as well. I'm sure I showed Anarky87 this deck already via PM on TMD, but it went through some changes...


// Lands 18
4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Island


// Creatures 11
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
3 Mystic Enforcer


// Spells 31
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
2 Portent
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Mental Note
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares


// Sideboard 15
3 Hydroblast
3 Stifle
3 Pithing Needle
3 Naturalize
3 Nantuko Monastery

Yes, because my maindeck is weak, I make up for it in siding in 12 cards against Goblins... Against Machinus Goblins though, I might leave Counterbalance in since it takes down Tinkerers, Piledrivers, extra Vials, REB, and Tormod's Crypt.

@Radley: You dont really need Enlighten Tutor since you can just find those pieces and just assemble the whole combo on turn 3-4 consistently. You are running cantrips, and with fetchlands, each fetch you make is like seeing a card; it thins your deck. So you dont really need E-Tutor. You can however use E-Tutor as a SB card as 3-ofs, and a bunch of silver bullet 1-ofs. It's quite an awesome plan IMO.


@Stifle v.s. Medlding Mage debate: How Meddling Mages does it take to fight TES? 2. Honestly, if you want me to be honest, the only card I'm afraid of is just Xantid Swarm. You guys have to learn that countering a Dark Ritual can do so much for you, since that's a power accelerent in Legacy. In T1, countering a Ritual is somewhat a pointless decision considering all the other accelerents played in that format. Stifle can be good, but you'd rather just fight through them when they combo out rather than just waiting for them to just throw their win condition at you.

[Bardo]

My new sideboard:

3 Hydroblast
3 Armageddon
3 Absolute Law
2 Loaming Shaman
2 Krosan Grip
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Mystic Enforcer

vs. Goblins
+3 Absolute Law
+3 Hydroblast
+1 Mystic Enforcer (odd, I know--but it works)

-4 Meddling Mage
-1 Engineered Explosives (unless they're boarding COTV)
-1 Counterspell, -1 Daze (on the draw) /// -2 Counterspell (on the play)

As far as I'm concerned, even the FOWs are on the block for potential cuts post-board. Daze es muy bueno.

Bitching stuff re: Absolute Law:

- Goblins: their guys, T Crypt, Gempalm Incinerator, Fanatic vs. 1/1 Werebears.
- RDW, everything.
- Burn, Flamebreak, stuff.

[kikkofrio]

Playing 17 lands:
- 3 flooded
- 3 windswept
- 2 polluted
- 4 tundra
- 4 tropoical
- 2 island
- 1 forest

Have you ever considered the idea to play only 1 enforcer (as ugwr) and insert 2 psionic blast to improving mu against aggro?
So, I know that psionic is a cc3, and it may be really heavy on the the deck, but playing it in 2x with 3 basic land wouldn't be so terrible.

What do you think about that?

[Citrus-God]

Personally, I think Chills would do much better against Goblins than Absolute Law. Chills can at least slow them down without the help of a Creature. And since your running Mental Note, Chill's effect can easily be used capitalize on Goblins state very easily,

[noobslayer]

I think we discussed it a fair bit, but Goblins will likely mull into a hand with vial or lackey, meaning if one of those goes unanswered, chill does next to nothing here. Granted absolute law doesn't do much without a creature, but it can help stem the bleeding the turn it comes down.

[Bardo]

@ Kikkofrio - As long as you're running 14 or so cantrips, that manabase looks fine.


Have you ever considered the idea to play only 1 enforcer (as ugwr) and insert 2 psionic blast to improving mu against aggro?

Condemn would be far better if you needed more tools against aggro; 3 mana is really over the hump in this deck, and getting Shocked to do so doesn't seem like a sweet deal either.


Personally, I think Chills would do much better against Goblins than Absolute Law.

Chill is better against RDW and Burn (two fairly unpopular decks; well, I guess we all see Burn from time to time); but n00bslayer has it right: Chill is junk vs. Lackey/Vial. Absolute Law will buy you indefinite time for the Enforcer plan, or just to have a stable Mongoose/Werebear wall, where you can swing for 3-4 for a couple of turns and then just alpha strike for 11-12 or so, and there's not a damn thing they can do about it, short of StP.

With 10 guys--test it.

The important thing is that it blanks Incinerator and Crypt.

[Volt]

I think Chill is getting a bad rap here. Even with an active Aether Vial on the table, Chill still really slows down Gobs. Yeah, you still have to worry about turn 1 Lackey, but you always have to worry about that. Oh, and Chill + Pithing Needle naming Aether Vial pretty much locks them out. Just sayin.

[Bardo]

I think Chill is getting a bad rap here. Even with an active Aether Vial on the table, Chill still really slows down Gobs. Yeah, you still have to worry about turn 1 Lackey, but you always have to worry about that. Oh, and Chill + Pithing Needle naming Aether Vial pretty much locks them out. Just sayin.

Just to play Devil's Attorney here, Goblins has a lot of ways to cheat on mana; the aforementioned AEther Vial, Goblin Lackey, plus Goblin Warchief. Without those three (12) cards, Chill will put a huge beating on Goblins and make Daze even stronger. Though it's shit in the mid/late game.

Whereas, Absolute Law has the advantage of being good even in the late game (unlike Chill) and excels at blanking Goblins trumps; which Chill does not.

Honestly, I'm not 100% sure that I'm right and that Absolute Law is the Right Card for the Job--but it's looking very attractive for some critical strategic reasons.

[Citrus-God]

Chill is better against RDW and Burn (two fairly unpopular decks; well, I guess we all see Burn from time to time); but n00bslayer has it right: Chill is junk vs. Lackey/Vial. Absolute Law will buy you indefinite time for the Enforcer plan, or just to have a stable Mongoose/Werebear wall, where you can swing for 3-4 for a couple of turns and then just alpha strike for 11-12 or so, and there's not a damn thing they can do about it, short of StP.

With 10 guys--test it.

The important thing is that it blanks Incinerator and Crypt.

It seems that getting rid of Lackey and/or Vial is part of your game plan anyways, and even if those go unanswered, your going to lose anyways. Chill at least adapts with your game plan, and keeps them from over extending against you (it makes sure Gempalm is useless at that moment as well).

IMO, the the reason to run Chill is make Daze interactive,
slow Goblins down until turn 6 (if they make consistent land drops which I doubt), and the such. By the time they have enough mana for Warcheif, it's probably enough to play through one Chill.... before their 5th Land drop, you should have played a 2nd Chill. Chills are amazing and synergizing to your game plan; the first Chill stalls them of enough time for you to find more multiples and allow you to capitalize on them.

Test it Bardo, I know you'll like it. I also doubt Helmut Summersberger would've done well if he didnt run Chills in the SB against Goblins. His take on Threshold was amazing, and always assumed the role of Beatdown free counters backed up. I tried it with the Hatfield deck with Stifles and I love it! Stifles hit Crypt, meanwhile Chills do their thing. It slows them down so much, I saw a Ringleader resolve too and we both knew that he would still play his Goblins one at a time, so he scooped seeing a Bear and 2 Geese on the board. Keep in mind I stalled him into ultra late game. He would've won at that time.

[Bardo]

The more I think about Tarmogoyf, the more I'm thinking he's going to bump Werebear and his shitty ass flavor text.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=45721&stc=1&d=1176328003

Tarmogoyf
{1} {G}
Creature - Lhurgoyf
Future Sight - Rare

Tarmogoyf's power is equal to the number of card types among cards in all graveyards and it's toughness is equal to that number plus 1. (The card types are artifact, creature, enchantment, instant, land, planeswalker, sorcery, and tribal).

Consider a few opening plays:

Turn 1: Delta, fetching Island, Serum Visions; Daze Lackey/Vial on your opponent's turn.
Turn 2: Heath, fetching Forest, play Nimble Mongoose.
Turn 3: replay Island, Tarmogoyf (4/5).

Alternately:

Turn 1: Delta, fetching Island, EOT Mental Note dredging Serum Visions and EE.
Turn 2: Heath, fetching Forest, Tarmogoyf (4/5).

Sweet jesus.

Theoretically, he can be as large as an 8/9 for two mana--though that's really freaking unlikely, given that we have no idea how Legacy-viable Tribal and Planeswalker cards are.

Still, in a deck like Threshold, he'll usually be a 3/4 - 5/6 for minimal investment; most likely 4/5 given the most common card types are land, instant, sorcery, creature.

Compared with Werebear:

+ very rarely an x/1
+ even if a 0/1, if your opponent sac's a Fanatic, he's automatically 1/2 (the trigger stacks, but the Fanatic hits the GY as part of the cost of his ability, Tarmogoyf gets +1/+1 as a state-based effect [someone, correct me if I'm wrong on this point])
+ can get much seriously huge
++ greater protection to GY hate since it counts cards in your opponent's GY (in a lot of cases, even if a Grunt or Shaman eats your GY, Tarmogoyf will still be big enough to trump Grunt/Shaman, because of your opponent)
- doesn't tap for {G}
- can be a 3/4 for the same cost as Werebear

Aesthetically:

+ King-hell looking card frame; I love it.
+ No shitty flavor text.
+ Lhurgoyfs are cooler than lycanthropic bears, by a fucking mile

Basically, do the relative pay-offs of Tarmogoyf compensate for his inability to tap for Green?

[z38gm]

I think the best part about the Lhurgoyf is the fact that he nullifies cards like crypt because your opponent would have to keep their yard empty as well as yours to keep his fat off, it seems more often than not he would be larger than the bear. I think its definitly worth testing.

[Happy Gilmore]

I think the best part about the Lhurgoyf is the fact that he nullifies cards like crypt because your opponent would have to keep their yard empty as well as yours to keep his fat off, it seems more often than not he would be larger than the bear. I think its definitly worth testing.

He is very interesting indead but I would not underestimate Werebear's ability to produce green mana. Testing will tell how good he really is but the prospect of a large threat withought thresh is quite tempting. And I clearly didn't read the card too well in the spoiler, I did not realize it worked for your opponent as well. Lightning bolt a warchief to give him +2/+2? :eek:

[Volt]

Basically, do the relative pay-offs of Tarmogoyf compensate for his inability to tap for Green?

Just talking off the top of my head (or out of some other body part, if you prefer), I think the answer to your question is yes. How often is the "tap for green" ability really relevant? When playing Mystic Enforcer? Armageddon after sideboard?

Another question worth asking... Do you maybe cut Mystic Enforcer instead, and run 4x Mongoose + 4x Tarmogoyf + 2-4x Werebear? Losing Mystic Enforcer might hurt the Goblins matchup a bit...

[Gekoratel]

I think we discussed it a fair bit, but Goblins will likely mull into a hand with vial or lackey, meaning if one of those goes unanswered, chill does next to nothing here.
I'm not sure if this statement is entrily true, Goblins has such an advantage in this matchup that the benefits of aggresivly mulliganing are not very high. Now for Goblins in the combo matchup the complete opposite is true. For example I would keep this hand if I knew my opponent was playing Thresh
2 Fetch
1 Mountain
1 Port
1 Warchief
1 Matron
1 Ringleader

This hand doesnt come out of the gates very fast but it has a very strong lategame so if you can survive the early beats that Threshold puts on you odds are you are going to win the game.


Losing Mystic Enforcer might hurt the Goblins matchup a bit

Isn't this matchup already pretty abysmal for the Thresh side. Knowing this you can either hope to do mise by avioding the matchup and run your setup or try to have a shot and keep Mystic Enforcers.

[Bryant Cook]

While reading Bardo's post this came to my mind, is it any better than Dryad? Calm down, take a breather and continue reading. Neither are extremely strong on turn two, both start out in bolt/random damage range. I know you can wait to Tarmogoyf or whatever his name is, but if thats one of his advantages it seems weak. Dryad can continue growing past the average Tarmogoyf, don't give me that crap about him being a 8/9 for 1G, It'll happen once in a blue moon. I personally think Dryad is crap, nor do I feel like defending it beyond this post. I think Werebear will end up staying, I just wanted to get the idea out in people's minds that he isn't too much of a new idea, but possibly a better old idea.

[Zach Tartell]

While reading Bardo's post this came to my mind, is it any better than Dryad? Calm down, take a breather and continue reading. Neither are extremely strong on turn two, both start out in bolt/random damage range. I know you can wait to Tarmogoyf or whatever his name is, but if thats one of his advantages it seems weak. Dryad can continue growing past the average Tarmogoyf, don't give me that crap about him being a 8/9 for 1G, It'll happen once in a blue moon. I personally think Dryad is crap, nor do I feel like defending it beyond this post. I think Werebear will end up staying, I just wanted to get the idea out in people's minds that he isn't too much of a new idea, but possibly a better old idea.

I'm pretty happy that you put rocks back in my pockets. He is pretty good. But, I'm not sure that he's broken good. Probably not even better than bear. But it certainly makes mental note nuts. 4 goose, 4 bear, 3 of this guy, 4 mage, 1 enforcer. Maybe not. Anyway, I think that this'll help out white thresh as a two-of maybe. He has potential, but you'd almost have to play mental note with him. I'll meditate on it.

[Volt]

While reading Bardo's post this came to my mind, is it any better than Dryad? Calm down, take a breather and continue reading. Neither are extremely strong on turn two, both start out in bolt/random damage range. I know you can wait to Tarmogoyf or whatever his name is, but if thats one of his advantages it seems weak. Dryad can continue growing past the average Tarmogoyf, don't give me that crap about him being a 8/9 for 1G, It'll happen once in a blue moon. I personally think Dryad is crap, nor do I feel like defending it beyond this post. I think Werebear will end up staying, I just wanted to get the idea out in people's minds that he isn't too much of a new idea, but possibly a better old idea.

Tarmogoyf is quite obviously better than Dryad.

[Bardo]

I think the best part about the Lhurgoyf is the fact that he nullifies cards like crypt because your opponent would have to keep their yard empty as well as yours to keep his fat off, it seems more often than not he would be larger than the bear.

Yeah, just to be clear, that's one of this guy's saving graces: better resilience to GY hate.


He is very interesting indead but I would not underestimate Werebear's ability to produce green mana. Testing will tell how good he really is but the prospect of a large threat withought thresh is quite tempting.

I agree fully. Bear's mana ability is useful in the mirror (nullifying Daze) or deploying a Mongoose or another Werebear while keeping Counterspell mana up. The turn-3 Enforcer is extremely freaking rare. More likely, against LD (Sinkhole, Wasteland, etc.) once you hit three land + Werebear you can power him out; but this is only key or game-breaking in the Red Death or B/W Pikula matches.

Really, I think that's the biggest thing you're giving up with Werebear, the mana ability, which is why I bolded it above.


Armageddon after sideboard?

It happens, but only rarely.


Do you maybe cut Mystic Enforcer instead, and run 4x Mongoose + 4x Tarmogoyf + 2-4x Werebear? Losing Mystic Enforcer might hurt the Goblins matchup a bit...

I'd keep Enforcer, since he's gold (pun, etc.) in a lot of situationst that are hard to navigate without him.

The Goose is staying where is he in the line-up. You've seen Rikki-Tikki-Tavi, right? Bad Fucking Ass.


Isn't this matchup already pretty abysmal for the Thresh side.

Depending on the player/build, it's in the 40/60 range at worst, esp. on the draw--more like 50/50 or 45/55 on the play. Doable, though not a cause for celebration.


While reading Bardo's post this came to my mind, is it any better than Dryad?

Loads more, yes. Like the difference between a non-evasive 11/11 vs. a non-evasive 6/7 or 5/6 or pretty negligible. If you get through, you'll pretty much win. And getting a Dryad massive is quite an investment and an otherwise wretched topdeck, mid/late game. Whereas, the 'goyf is a stellar mid/late game top-deck, likely being a 5/6 past turn 6-7 or so right off the bat.


Tarmogoyf or whatever his name is

Yeah, I had to copy/paste it in my post above a dozen times. Werebear does have the advantage of being infinitely easier to spell. :)


He is pretty good. But, I'm not sure that he's broken good.

Right. The question is: Is he/it better than Werebear?

[Happy Gilmore]

Right. The question is: Is he/it better than Werebear?

It is very very possible. he is a turn 2 2/3 for two if you go first turn fetch-> Serum Visions or Portent. Dazing a creature that turn makes him a 4/5 on your next turn O_o. He actually gives thesh sustainable speed and resiliance to graveyard hate at the same time, something I never thought possible.

[Bardo]

He actually gives thesh sustainable speed and resiliance to graveyard hate at the same time, something I never thought possible.

Right! It would often be the case that a Tormod's Crypt, esp coming from a fast aggro deck (see Goblins), would freaking wreck Thresh when it was withing striking distance of winning.

Having resilience from GY hate alone probably makes up for whatever benefit 'Bear's "Tap for G" provides. I mean, we don't play Werebear because he can do that, and we'd still play him without it; 4/4s for 1G are GOOD. 4/5s for the same cost that don't cave to Crypt? Seems better.

[Volt]

I think Morning Tide (http://magiccards.info/tr/en/10.html) is about to become a popular sideboard choice.

[Happy Gilmore]

I think Morning Tide (http://magiccards.info/tr/en/10.html) is about to become a popular sideboard choice.

Haha, that’s funny as hell. God I hope people play that Shaz in their board. The fact that you can play him as a 3/4 or better with only 3 cards in your graveyard is insane, it also takes away the need for Mental Note entirely.

This creature and Counterbalance have just rocked the archetype in a big way.

[Nightmare]

I think Morning Tide (http://magiccards.info/tr/en/10.html) is about to become a popular sideboard choice.Even if they Morning Tide, he's a 1/2 that grows up again extremely quickly.

[Bardo]

I think Morning Tide (http://magiccards.info/tr/en/10.html) is about to become a popular sideboard choice.

The thing about Crypt is that it's free and any deck can play it. Something like Morning Tide, while um, good at hating the 'goyf (which I am henceforth calling the thing), but is not going to see that much play on account of the number of decks running White (less than 40-50%). Dunno.

[Volt]

The thing about Crypt is that it's free and any deck can play it. Something like Morning Tide, while um, good at hating the 'goyf (which I am henceforth calling the thing), but is not going to see that much play on account of the number of decks running White (less than 40-50%). Dunno.

Well, yeah. Obviously, you have to be playing white. And you have to not care about your own graveyard. So that narrows the field considerably. For those decks, though, Morning Tide will be an attractive option. I'm not saying it's anything you should worry about; it's not any worse for you than Tormod's Crypt used to be. And Tarmogoyf recovers quickly anyway.

[Citrus-God]

It is very very possible. he is a turn 2 2/3 for two if you go first turn fetch-> Serum Visions or Portent. Dazing a creature that turn makes him a 4/5 on your next turn O_o. He actually gives thesh sustainable speed and resiliance to graveyard hate at the same time, something I never thought possible.


Combine that with Counterbalance and Morning Tide is nothing. Wow, I am so happy to see that that card coming out. I will miss Werebear, but this card just looks awesome.

[Citrus-God]

Got back from some playtesting. I love Tarmogoyf! The fact he comes down faster than Werebear is nuts! He may be the best answer to Goblins we've ever had in awhile, due to the fact he comes out early and doesnt need Threshold.

Versus Goblins, Goyf can

-Answers Lackey on Turn 2. Something Werebear cant do. Playing a 1st turn Cantrip on the play, and a potential fetchland from the opponent (or yours) is savage in this MU. This can potentially make the Goyf a 1/2-2/3 at that time. If it's a 1/2, it shouldnt matter. Only Swords to Plowshares can answe this guy - Moggy sucks against this teh Goyf.

-Can potentially race Vial with multiples out. Out of 10 games, my playtest partner and was trying to play around Daze if he wanted to get Vial active against me. He got it going off turn 2. On my turn 3, I played a Goyf, and then cantripped. I saw another Goyf from my cantrips and played it turn 4. I pressured him so well, I won that game in face. I had 5 cards in the Graveyard btw. Kiss the chef.

-The Incenerator range keeps going up. Yes, it takes another creature to trade-block for Goyf, and Incenerator range of this creature changes, making it even more sensitive to your opponent's game plan. The fact now, a simple Swords to Plowshares can ruin even more games.

-Clock gets faster from a 4/5 to a 5/6. Damn this is hot right here, seeing: Artifact, Creature, Sorcery, Instant, and Land all at the same time in 3-4 simple turns.

Versus Goblins, Bear can

-Give you Green mana when they get you in the Port lockdown.... honestly, it shouldnt matter if you get Goyf down early and start pressuring them. With a plethora of free-counters, why should you be afraid? Especially with cantrips to help you replace lost Beaters.

-Flex your arms while you have Werebear in play, and say, "Is it just me, or are these guns illegal? I think I should get my gun license to the YMCA, so I can excercise my rights to these bear arms."


Against Solidarity, Goyf can

-Speeds up your clock, which is always a good thing. Dropping him turn 2 and going all the way? My god, I love this card so much! <3 The Goyf.



Against The Mirror/Goyf Haters

-Walks right into the Bear when it's 4/5-5/6, and still kicks it's ass.

-Walks right into the Goose and still kicks it's ass.

-Doesnt kick the Enforcer's ass, but that's besides the point. It can kill Dragon and Tombstalker luckily.

-Bashe's your opponent's face in when he doesnt have Threshold, and if he does, you already got first blood.

Against Hanni Fish

-Doesnt fucking trade with Jotun Grunt, and doesnt fucking die to that stinky giant with his mom helping him to beat you up with parental guidence as back up incase Steve McQueen (Goyf) decided he's too badass to take this shit any longer. Oh, and Grunts ability takes for-fucking-ever. Let him eat your grave, you still have he's grave to live off of. And if he calls Swords to Plowshares with he's early Meddling Mages, good-fucking-luck winning this match-up now.

-Fucking hell yeah! Makes Confidant races so much more fun.


I say we dont name him the Goyf. He needs a more badass name. Steve McQueen dammit! The card should be named Steve-motherfucking-McQueen! Werebear had a shitty, yet badass flavour text - Tarmogoyf should have a badass name with no need for a fucking flavour text to describe he's fucking badassness. I know Werebear likes to show off he's guns but has no name, but Goyf is so fucking badass, he doesnt need some shitty flavor text to describe he's name: Steve McQueen says it all...

[Tao]

// Lands
1 [RAV] Island (1)
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [R] Tundra
4 [R] Tropical Island

// Creatures
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
3 [OD] Werebear
2 [OD] Mystic Enforcer

// Spells
3 [FD] Serum Visions
4 [OD] Predict
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [IA] Portent
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [NE] Daze
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
2 [SOK] Pithing Needle

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [5E] Hydroblast
SB: 2 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 2 [ST] Armageddon
SB: 2 [CS] Jotun Grunt
SB: 2 [FD] Trinket Mage
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [CS] Counterbalance

This is a possible list with Counterbalance. I tested it quite intensive and it is very good.

- Divining Top is insane combined with Brainstorm, Serum Visions or Predict and Fetchlands; it finds you whatever you may need.

- I have never missed Counterspell, Counterbalance does much more in most matchups.

- Predict has a hit percentage of over 90% with Balance and Top (no statistics, but it should be about that), so it is very, very good.

- Counterbalance is either good or broken in every matchup except Goblins, so I want to maindeck it; even without Top you can gain much card advantage with Brainstorm or random countering; if you play against Goblins just side ot out, that's much better than siding it in in every other matchup (unless you play in the netherlands)

- Trinket Mages in the SB are really strong:
*against Goblins you have more outs against Vial without being forced to play a 3rd Needle
*in the Aggro Control Mirror it is broken because it fetches Explosives and Top, in the Threshold Mirror it can also fetch Crypt
*against Faerie Stompy and Staxx you can fetch Explosives to have an out against stupid Chalices
*they are flexible and you always find something fetch-worthy in between Top, Crypt, Explosives and Needle

[Citrus-God]

That's an awesome list, but your sideboard looks rather janky, and your land line-up looks like it's gonna scoop to Wasteland.

Go for this

3 Windswept Heath
4 Blue fetches
4 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Forest
2 Island


Armageddons, Jotun Grunts, and Meddling Mages look rather pointless in here. I think you should replace those with a 3rd Trinket Mage, and more cards against Goblins, like Stifles.

[Tao]

That's an awesome list,


Thanks.



your land line-up looks like it's gonna scoop to Wasteland.

Go for this

3 Windswept Heath
4 Blue fetches
4 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Forest
2 Island


I will never play nonblue lands in Threshold. If my opponents waste, then I am fine with it and replay lands. If my opponents stabilizes the board and then establish Crucible/Waste I accept my defeat.
But feel free to play Forests if you like to play it more safe.



Armageddons, Jotun Grunts, and Meddling Mages look rather pointless in here. I think you should replace those with a 3rd Trinket Mage, and more cards against Goblins, like Stifles.


Yeah, Stifle is a good idea, maybe they can be played instead of the Mages. I like Jotun Grunts: They are a mirror breaker and they beat independent from Threshold. A 3rd Trinket Mage is too much because the 2nd Mage would often have no good target.

[Happy Gilmore]

Thanks.



I will never play nonblue lands in Threshold. If my opponents waste, then I am fine with it and replay lands. If my opponents stabilizes the board and then establish Crucible/Waste I accept my defeat.
But feel free to play Forests if you like to play it more safe.



Thats not a good reason to not play a Forest. Especially, if you are playing 3x Sensei's divining top in the main (which should be only 2 imo). I briefly tested Counterbalance in the MD last weekend and it was not bad, however I missed having the 3 extra Counterspells games 2/3 vs. Faerie Stompy, Solidarity, Red Death, and others. There are a surprising amount of 3cc cards that you have to be able to answer so I don't feel cutting Counterspell is possible.

[kabal]

// Lands
1 [RAV] Island (1)
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [R] Tundra
4 [R] Tropical Island

// Creatures
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
3 [OD] Werebear
2 [OD] Mystic Enforcer

// Spells
3 [FD] Serum Visions
4 [OD] Predict
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [IA] Portent
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [NE] Daze
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
2 [SOK] Pithing Needle

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [5E] Hydroblast
SB: 2 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 2 [ST] Armageddon
SB: 2 [CS] Jotun Grunt
SB: 2 [FD] Trinket Mage
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [CS] Counterbalance


Just in case anyone wants more information regarding the above list, it was taken from this article (http://www.planetmtg.de/articles/artikel.html?id=2703) posted on Tuesday @ PlanetMTG.

[Tao]

Just in case anyone wants more information regarding the above list, it was taken from this article (http://www.planetmtg.de/articles/artikel.html?id=2703) posted on Tuesday @ PlanetMTG.

Yep, my Article :)

But I think that the German readers all know Pmtg and the others can't understand the language so it won't help anybody to post it here.


Edit:
You can try it with this, but the translation is a bit rough (maps = cards, saying=spell, grammar is nonexistant), so it is on your own risk.

http://www.planetmtg.de/articles/artikel.html?id=2703&typ=2&

http://translate.google.com/translate_t

copy the URL into "Translate a Web Page" "German to English", Google has the best free translation programm I know. Still far from perfect, though.


Edit 2:
Haha, this is funny (the Germans will know why):

Drink yourself Mage = Trinket Mage
Who Bear = Werbear
Lightning Fishing Rod = Lightning Angel

and, best of all:
the material paluschke = the real paluschke

[Happy Gilmore]

I tweaked Bardo's list. What do you guys think?

//Creatures - 14
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
3 Meddling Mage
2 Mystic Enforcer

//Spells – 25
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Predict
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Counterspell

//Artifact – 3
3 Pithing Needle

//Land - 18
4 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
2 Island
1 Forest

SB:
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Tivadar's Crusade
2 Armageddon
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Worship
1 Mystic Enforcer

Haven't tested it yet, but I have a feeling my version is better against Thunder Bluff than other builds.


I have always been a big fan of draw spells, I reserver 15-16 slots for them. And I am convinced, that even if your not running Counterbalance in the SB 2x Top in the main will just win some games. Top is that good.

Oh, and you should be running 2x Strand and 2x Delta. It allows for more versatility when naming targets with needle while at the same time fighting the same strategy being used against you.

[blackguard90]

so any new changes to the list with future sight? Namely tarmogoyf? Can this guy replace werebear as the cheap beatstick? I know anti-american have said some things, but what do others think? I like the card a lot, but what the hell are planeswalker and rebel?

[Volt]

so any new changes to the list with future sight? Namely tarmogoyf? Can this guy replace werebear as the cheap beatstick? I know anti-american have said some things, but what do others think? I like the card a lot, but what the hell are planeswalker and rebel?

Tarmogoyf in Thresh is a done deal. The only question is how many werebears will be cut.

[noobslayer]

I see Tarmogoyf doing better in the builds with Counter Top. With more artifacts and enchantments to potentially go to the yard (yes I'm well aware they are better in play and not in the yard), you can get larger goyf's more consistently, which is the reason to run them over Bear in the first place.

[HPC]

I was looking at the spoiler today and saw Judge Unworthy:

Judge Unworthy -- 1w
Instant

Choose target attacking or blocking creature. Scry 3, then reveal the top card of your library. Judge Unworthy deals damage equal to that card's converted mana cost to that creature.

I like the card because it lets you dig three deep and gives you the opportunity to remove an attacker or blocker. Which I would sometimes have problems with right before I got to threshold or after losing my grave. Could Judge Unworthy possibly replace Portent or go in the sideboard as additional creature kill? Or with the addition of the 'goyf' do Thresh's creatures come online faster now making this card already obsolete?

[Happy Gilmore]

I was looking at the spoiler today and saw Judge Unworthy:

Judge Unworthy -- 1w
Instant

Choose target attacking or blocking creature. Scry 3, then reveal the top card of your library. Judge Unworthy deals damage equal to that card's converted mana cost to that creature.

I like the card because it lets you dig three deep and gives you the opportunity to remove an attacker or blocker. Which I would sometimes have problems with right before I got to threshold or after losing my grave. Could Judge Unworthy possibly replace Portent or go in the sideboard as additional creature kill? Or with the addition of the 'goyf' do Thresh's creatures come online faster now making this card already obsolete?

The two biggest problems with it are that it costs 2 and can only be used durring the attack step. Besides that, I like it.

Neither Goyf or Judge unworthy are legay at GP Columbus or any of the tournaments leading to it. I think discussion of future sight is a little premature and sidetracks the discussion.

The one thing that UGW needs to figure out is how to beat Goblins post board. The Crypt/Chalice plan still trumps anything I have seen suggested thus far.

To be honest I might look into some old tech and see if it holds up a.k.a. Chill.

[Bardo]

To be honest I might look into some old tech and see if it holds up a.k.a. Chill.

I tested Absolute Law this weeked vs. Goblins and thought it sucked ass (not enough threat density on Thresh's part). For the time being, I'm back to Chill as well. As long as you can answer Lackey (easy enough done) and Vial (not as easily done), Chill should own Goblins and buy Thresh the time it needs to establish its offense.

Chill is at least in Thresh's main color (though REB'able) and pitches to FoW if you need to. Also double-Chill is a huge bitch, unlike, say double Ab Law.

[Happy Gilmore]

I tested Absolute Law this weeked vs. Goblins and thought it sucked ass (not enough threat density on Thresh's part). For the time being, I'm back to Chill as well. As long as you can answer Lackey (easy enough done) and Vial (not as easily done), Chill should own Goblins and buy Thresh the time it needs to establish its offense.

Chill is at least in Thresh's main color (though REB'able) and pitches to FoW if you need to. Also double-Chill is a huge bitch, unlike, say double Ab Law.

The thing I fear is the addition of Krosan Grip. Not to mention that CotV is not affected by Chill. I think you could bring in 4 Chill and maybe 2-3 EE to answer Chalice and creatures occasionally.