[OLD] UGw Threshold [Archive] - Page 5

Adan

02-10-2008, 03:36 PM

nastynate

02-10-2008, 06:40 PM

As kabal said, to a degree. Werebears might be bigger than Mongeese, yes, but Werebear+Tarmogoyf... I think you will get raped by EE2, Thread of Disloyalty, Mind Harness (I'm damn surprised and amazed by that card!) and yes, Spell Snare. And the rest of it, Swords to Plowshares, Smother, Ghastly Demise...

Like I was saying before, I know why geese are good, and even in the list I posted I put geese in parentheses because they have their own strengths. Werebears are just plain better in some match-ups though.

And, hell, Hydroblasts are the most "metaish" choice of all. Krosan Grip, Repeal, Wipe Away/Rushing River, Pithing Needle, Engineered Explosives are all VERSATILE. Hell, even Oblivion Rings are more versatile than Hydroblasts.

I already run 3 EE. :wink: Yes those 3 hydroblasts are very meta-ish, but in my meta they are real bombs. Unlike bounce, which I admit is more universally applicable, they actually deal with threats on their own, threats which I see in about 50% of my match-ups (which includes bunches of lightning bolts, moons, and red threats). Bouncing a red threat only deals with it until they cast it again.

Hydroblasts are good in...well...2 single matchups. Even though you may play them just 4 fun to blast a land at random or whatsoever, these 2 matchups won't ever be a good justification for me to play them maindeck. It's like playing Armageddon in 42Land maindeck just to beat Landstill and MUC.Or Pyrostatic Pillar maindeck to beat at least 1 of those 2 Solidarities running around.

Armageddon in 42 Lands is a very unfair comparison. Blue blasts are 1 CC counters/destruction in a deck built on a low curve and counters...armageddon in 42 Lands has far less synergy with it's core strategy. I listed some of the match-ups they help in already, and it's much more than two. It might be only 2 match-ups in your meta, in which case they would be trash. I already explained that they are a metagame call.

Maindecking them might improve the DragonStompy matchup, but it makes every other matchup worse for you because you lack 3 versatile cards like...Needle against Survival, Landstill, 43Land, Goblins, Belcher...

It doesn't make every other match-up less favorable. Even among those you just mentioned, hydroblast is better than needle against both goblins and belcher. It's certainly less valuable against Survival, Lands, and Landstill, but of those three decks I only occasionally see Survival, and the other two are simply not there.

And well, Mongeese are overall more dangerous than Werebears because the opponent can hardly get rid of them. Werebears are like slower but bigger Mongeese with all the disadvantages Mongeese don't have.

Werebears also have benefits mongeese don't have. If you don't like werebears that's fine, don't run them, but that doesn't mean there aren't times when werbears are better.

Let's just let the whole debate drop OK. I understand your points, and I know you don't agree with mine.

Kyachi

02-10-2008, 10:20 PM

Let's just let the whole debate drop OK. I understand your points, and I know you don't agree with mine.

You can't end an argument just because you refuse to listen to the other person's logic any more. Well, you can I suppose, but you would be Jesse Ventura...

Seriously having dead cards, like honestly potentially useless cards, is a really iffy option in any deck, but especially in Threshold, where every slot counts.

Further, on mongoose v. werebear- While werebear is big, Mongoose, or rather multiple mongooses can make the difference against control decks when they can't use targeted removal to save themselves. This is a huge difference between Mongoose and Werebear; werebear will never randomly win a game outside of being a creature that can attack.

J.V.

02-10-2008, 11:04 PM

It doesn't make every other match-up less favorable. Even among those you just mentioned, hydroblast is better than needle against both goblins and belcher. It's certainly less valuable against Survival, Lands, and Landstill, but of those three decks I only occasionally see Survival, and the other two are simply not there.

Sorry to cut into your arguement but:
Needle on Aether Vial>Hydroblast against Goblins (note there are situational exceptions but in general...) [also it hits Wasteland, Gempalm Incinerator, and Rishadan Port which situationally are huge]
And
Needle on belcher = Hydroblast on Burning Wish against belcher and realistically its the only thing you'd blast because if they are wishing then they are going for ETW and blasting ETW still makes you lose to storm.

nastynate

02-11-2008, 12:46 AM

You can't end an argument just because you refuse to listen to the other person's logic any more. Well, you can I suppose, but you would be Jesse Ventura...

Actually, how does one expect an argument to end in which neither side agrees? I think bowing out is more admirable that dragging it on endlessly.

Seriously having dead cards, like honestly potentially useless cards, is a really iffy option in any deck, but especially in Threshold, where every slot counts.

They aren't useless or dead in my metagame. I used to board blasts in against more than half the decks I was facing. The natural solution is to just put them in the main-deck instead. How is that wrong? When a side-board card is spending more time in your main-deck than it is in your side-board it's time to just give in and main-deck the card. That's all I've done.

If the hydroblasts are a bad call in your metagame then don't run them, but how can anyone playing in different meta claim that they'd be bad in mine? Obviously many people, like you and Adan, don't play in a metagame where this would be a viable option. That's why I wanted to just drop the whole affair. If that makes me a wrestler, turned actor, turned governor then so be it. :smile:

Further, on mongoose v. werebear- While werebear is big, Mongoose, or rather multiple mongooses can make the difference against control decks when they can't use targeted removal to save themselves. This is a huge difference between Mongoose and Werebear; werebear will never randomly win a game outside of being a creature that can attack.

Nobody plays control in my metagame except me and one other guy (who usually plays UGb Thresh). EE can deal with his mongeese, or I can simply block them since all my creatures are larger than them. I fear his dark confidants much more than his mongeese.

Werebear will randomly win games against decks packing wastelands or b-moon effects, both of which I see often. People obviously like to overlook this benefit (except for Anti~American4621, thanks dude).

Sorry to cut into your arguement but:
Needle on Aether Vial>Hydroblast against Goblins (note there are situational exceptions but in general...) [also it hits Wasteland, Gempalm Incinerator, and Rishadan Port which situationally are huge]
And
Needle on belcher = Hydroblast on Burning Wish against belcher and realistically its the only thing you'd blast because if they are wishing then they are going for ETW and blasting ETW still makes you lose to storm.

Cut in all you want. It's cool.

Needle on aether vial is pretty huge (I'll admit that), but they only run 4 vials, and they run more than 2 dozen hydroblast targets (lackey and ringleader come to mind). I'm also running 4 basic islands, 4 werebear, and 8 fetches, so wasteland and port are less effective against me (and not really worth naming with needle). I also still have 3 main deck EE to destroy vials should they hit play, and EE (which won't be around for long) is far less likely to get destroyed by a tin-street hooligan than a pithing needle (which just sits there waiting for them to kill it). In a Threshhold deck with a more vulnerable mana-base and without EE in the main deck, pithing needle is > hydroblast, but in mine hydroblast is > than pithing needle against goblins.

Against belcher, hydroblast hits burning wish, pyroblast, and mana sources, while needle just forces them to use EtW instead, or burning wish for shattering spree. If I had to choose between needle or hydroblast in this match-up I'd go for the hydroblasts; blasts just hit more cards, and aren't so easily answered.

Certainly other match-ups like Lands!, Landstill, and non-red Survival decks make blasts pretty unappealing, but I almost never face those decks. I do sometimes have to deal with Ichorid, but against them almost my entire is deck is dead, not just my hydroblasts. Post board I have 4 crypts and 4 EE which gives me a fighting chance.

godryk

02-11-2008, 10:59 AM

Braves

02-11-2008, 11:47 AM

Well, obviously, everyone is free to adapt his list to his own meta.

I played the deck in small tournament at a friend's small shop and was quite impressed with it. I just played four rounds of swiss facing Landstill, MUC, a rockish deck and a random green aggro deck only losing to The Rock, that's not bad considering Pernicious Deed, eight edicts and fucking Troll Ascetic laughing at my Swords/EE.

I can say my MVP was Mongoose, closely followed by MD Pithing Needle. First turn Pithing on their EE/Pernicious followed by turn 2 Mongoose is incredibily solid and won me 3 games. I can consider including Werebear in Threshold but I can hardly imagine kicking Mongoose out of the deck as it was my opponents' worst nightmare or,at leat, that's what they said to me.

Other great one was Mystic Enforcer and his ability to own Goyf (most of time), Morphling, Exlated Angel or Quagnoth. It's so good that I sometimes wish a third one.

I played a very standard list with 17 lands, 2 Pithing Needle, 2 EE and 2 Mystic Enforcer.

Ive been testing mystic enforcers as a two of. Almost always it seems dead to me. I can play a mongoose or goyf early, but the gwcc 4 converted mana cost never seems worth it to me while playing. Its like I need to save countermana or top mana, and not tap out to play mystic enforcer, only time i play him is late late game and its just a win more card, or earlier if I have daze/fow back up in hand. Im going to test 4- goyf, 4- mongoose, 2- werebear this week.

ParkerLewis

02-11-2008, 02:22 PM

Ive been testing mystic enforcers as a two of. Almost always it seems dead to me. I can play a mongoose or goyf early, but the gwcc 4 converted mana cost never seems worth it to me while playing. Its like I need to save countermana or top mana, and not tap out to play mystic enforcer, only time i play him is late late game and its just a win more card, or earlier if I have daze/fow back up in hand. Im going to test 4- goyf, 4- mongoose, 2- werebear this week.

How many cantrips do you run ? I run 12 (Brainstorm/Ponder/Predict), and i've never had any problems casting Enforcers (which i run as a 2-of too, running the usual number of 17 lands). And they've proved extremely potent when cast. I've never really felt it was a win more card - at worst it's a "finishing blow", and it's usually much more than that, turning crappy situations into wins.

Patoon

02-11-2008, 03:55 PM

I am interested for some people perspectives as to what the better build for a skewed meta, as in one which you would consider tier 1.5/2.

I have been running, what you would call an optimised thresh list, but i am finding that i am running into great amounts of trouble.

Here is the list i have run

4 x Nimble Mongoose
4 x Tarmogoyf
2 x Mystic Enforcer

4 x Brainstorm
4 x Force of Will
4 x Daze
4 x Stifle
4 x Swords to Plowshares
4 x Ponder
3 x Counterbalance
3 x Sensei's Divining Top
1 x Pithing Needle
1 x Engineered Explosives

I guess the biggest issues i have faced are;

1. Counterbalance isnt the bomb it should be: Against an unknown meta CB tends to not counter as much as you want it too.

2. Threshold is not coming or is coming too late: I found to often i wasn't hitting threshold, so my goose were weak and my flyers didnt fly.

I have considered altering this list as follows.
-3 Counterbalance
-3 Sensei's Divining Top
-2 Mystic Enforcer

+4 Serendib Efreet
+4 Counterspell

I really like the serendib efreets, (revised ones seem rather at home in the deck, its like they were printed green for a reason). The counterspells i am really not sure about, maybe there is a better counter for this situation (mana leak..?)

Tell me what you think or if you have experience with this kind of skewed meta

N.B. Typical Decks in my meta
Death & Taxes
Stax
Dragon Stompy
Faerie Stompy
Burn

ParkerLewis

02-11-2008, 04:46 PM

I am interested for some people perspectives as to what the better build for a skewed meta, as in one which you would consider tier 1.5/2.

I have been running, what you would call an optimised thresh list, but i am finding that i am running into great amounts of trouble.

Here is the list i have run

I noticed you're only running 8 cantrips. The usual package is 10 minimum, and more like 11-12. Do you really need the stifles ? Otherwise, you might want to replace them for Predicts. Good card (can even generate CA thanks to top/ponder manipulation). Plus, now you'll be able to go from 18 lands (according to your current spell number) to 17, freeing up a slot (for a second needle ?) thanks to the additional smoothing. Additionally, you'll be hitting Threshold more easily. Moreover, as with stifle, you can pitch it to force if needed. Finally, it's a 2cc card, which in your list mean you'll go from 6 to 10 cards that can counter a 2cc spell under a counterbalance (while not really affecting your 1cc countering capability). Rejoice, because adding this card to the list basically answers all the problems you've mentioned.

Also, what's your manabase like ? You usually want ~3 basics (2 island 1 forest, maybe one more if you're facing a lot of moon/wasteland effects), 6 duals, and 8 fetches.

godryk

02-11-2008, 05:23 PM

I think that CB isn't supossed to counter everything, specially against decks not named Threshold, but I find it useful countering all cheap utility spells like counters, removal, discard, burn, etc. Then you're left with FoW, Pithing Needle and whatever you may include for the higher costed spells.

It's something like I counter your Duress, Smother or Dark Confidant, I swords you Tombstalker. I counter your Brainstorm, Counterspell, Swords to Plowshares, I needle you EE. With CB I feel like saving my spells so that I can use them on stuff CB can't stop.

TrialByFire

02-11-2008, 05:50 PM

Quick question for you guys: I have been having a very hard time figuring out if I should run the 4th Daze or a 1 off Oblivion Ring. I know most people say Daze isn't effective unless you run 4, but I have been running 3 for a few weeks just to try out the Oblivion Ring. The reasons for this are my meta is a lot of Stax/Dragon Stompy variants and the like, with the combo decks being reduced to just Ichorid because of those decks. Oblivion ring is very useful in those matchups, being the 4th 3cc card for Counterbalance, and also removing annoying permanents like Trinishpere or acting as the 5th StP.
Hence the question: Is the versatility and utility of O Ring enough to justify losing sme of the power of Daze by cutting it to 3?

The List:
// Lands
3 Tundra
1 Forest
3 Tropical Island
4 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Plains

// Creatures
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Trygon Predator

// Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze OR 3 Daze, 1 Oblivion Ring
1 Engineered Explosives

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [4E] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [BOK] Threads of Disloyalty
SB: 4 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt

Braves

02-11-2008, 05:56 PM

KillemallCFH

02-11-2008, 06:05 PM

I think O-Ring is great in Thresh. I've been testing it as a 2-of. I think cutting Daze for it is justifiable, though I can't say for sure without actually testing your list. Here is my current list for reference:
//Land (18)
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
//Creatures (10)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Mystic Enforcer
//Couterspells (9)
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
1 Counterspell
//Cantrips (12)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Portent
2 Predict
//CB-Top (5)
2 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
//Removal (6)
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Oblivion Ring
//Sideboard (15)
SB: 1 Counterbalance
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 Stifle
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 Worship

I'm thinking of cutting that single Counterspell for a 3rd O-Ring, but I'm not sure yet.

godryk

02-11-2008, 06:41 PM

I'm not very sure about cutting Daze for Oblivion Ring. I think ORing should replace EE when needed as it has the same use, which I assume it is helping you to handle problematic permanents. I usually use EE to get rid of cheap permanents such us Mongoose, Jitte, Vial, CBalance... If you have to face nasty things EE can't handle because of their higher cmc, then I think it would deserve its slot.

TrialByFire

02-11-2008, 11:59 PM

Yea tha was my thinking to cut the EE for it, but honestly after testing, the EE was much more relevant than I thought it was. It takes out multiple permanents, untargetables, tokens, etc. O-Ring just can't match that. But I still think it deserves a slot. I notice a lot of you only run 3 Counterbalance in favor of more cantrips. Do you run the 4th in the SB? I think that CB is the most important card in the deck and want to have access to it as much as possible. I'm never mad about drawing multiples, because one usually gets killed, or I can just pitch them to Force.

Thehunter820

02-21-2008, 12:48 PM

I dont feel like adding it up so could someone tell me a round about price estimate for a UGW Thresh list something like this one...

Nimble Mongoose x4
Mystic Enforcer x2
Tarmogoyf x4

Brainstorm x4
Daze x3
Counterspell x3
Force of Will x4
Predict x3
Ponder x4
Counterbalance x4
Sensei's Divining Top x4
Swords to Plowshares x4

Flooded Strand x3
Polluted delta x3
Tropical Island x4
tundra x4
Island x1
Forest x1
Plains x1

Dilettante

02-21-2008, 12:52 PM

nastynate

02-21-2008, 01:07 PM

godryk

02-21-2008, 02:41 PM

Ha! I really love the current euro/dollar exchange rate (since 700$ become a mere 475€)...

Anyway, I think most magic players will already have some suff like Brainstorm, Counterspell, Swords, maybe FoW... It's scary to see how much your deck is after buying it card by card.

chokin

02-21-2008, 05:18 PM

Nimble Mongoose x4 = $6.00
Mystic Enforcer x2 = $5.00
Tarmogoyf x4 = $180.00 (yikes!)

Brainstorm x4 = $2.00
Daze x3 = $1.50
Counterspell x3 = $3.00
Force of Will x4 = $88.00
Predict x3 = $.75
Ponder x4 = $1.00
Counterbalance x4 = $12.00
Sensei's Divining Top x4 = $20.00
Swords to Plowshares x4 = $16.00

Flooded Strand x3 = $54.00
Polluted Delta x3 = $60.00 [Windswept Heath is better if you're running a basic forest and a basic plains and x3 = $50.00)
Tropical Island x4 = $140.00
Tundra x4 = $140.00

(I'm assuming you've got the basic lands covered)

Assuming you shop online it looks like about $720.00 unless you can find some really beat stuff or good deals in local shops.

Are duals really that expensive? I seriously use eBay and stuff and get any dual for like 18-25 each. Fetch were expensive, Deltas being about 15 each, and StP was like $1 when i got them. Your prices seem steep to me.

Advice for buying the deck: use ABUgames for played cards, trade lots, use eBay, get lucky in town.

Dilettante

02-21-2008, 05:22 PM

Are duals really that expensive? I seriously use eBay and stuff and get any dual for like 18-25 each. Fetch were expensive, Deltas being about 15 each, and StP was like $1 when i got them. Your prices seem steep to me.

Advice for buying the deck: use ABUgames for played cards, trade lots, use eBay, get lucky in town.

I just got playsets of both not too long ago for $100 apiece. They tend to be cheaper when either a) people post an underpriced Buy It Now or b) buying each card separately at auctions that do NOT end between 8pm-1am EST.

nastynate

02-21-2008, 05:44 PM

Are duals really that expensive? I seriously use eBay and stuff and get any dual for like 18-25 each. Fetch were expensive, Deltas being about 15 each, and StP was like $1 when i got them. Your prices seem steep to me.

I don't think my prices are that unrealistic (they're way less than SCG prices). I think that people who already have many of the cards (like us) tend to forget that the prices on older highly played cards just keep going up long after we got ours. Trade values fluctuate from place to place and person to person, so who knows what to expect if you go down that road.

You can certainly find deals, but blue duals tend to go for $28+ each, blue fetches for about $20 each, and StP for around $4 each if you buy them from online vendors. Playsets on eBay usually go for a little less, as do beat cards, and some local shops still have piles of older commons lying around (like IA StP), but I was trying to give the guy a more realistic amount, under the assumption that he didn't have a way to get stuff for less than the going rates (favorable trades, stores that aren't using eBay to move their extra inventory, MotL with plenty of refs, and so forth).

raharu

03-04-2008, 02:07 PM

nitewolf9

03-04-2008, 02:12 PM

Has anyone found the old complaint of not having enough removal still prevalent? Would Chain of Vapor or Rushig River fulfil the role? MD bounce looks like a really solid option for white thresh because of the versatility of bounce in general and the fact that the alternatives (Condemn, EE, others), are either less than stellar (Condemn) or symetrical at best (EE). Thoughts?

If you feel shy on removal why not try something like oblivion ring? It also acts as another 3 cc spell for counterbalance, especially relevant against control post board along with krosan grip. It seems better than bounce to me. Also helps remove opposing counterbalance/big finishers.

raharu

03-04-2008, 02:23 PM

Neither are permanent answers, and bounce seems more apealing because it's in the main color and lets themtry to replay it torough the CB counterwall. Personally I find Counterbalance to be the only removal outside of StP that I need, i just figured I'd throw out some an idea for more 1cc removal (Chain of Vapor).

TrialByFire

03-04-2008, 05:37 PM

Chain of Vapor lets them get rid of your CB by sac-ing a land, so if you want to play bounce play Rushing River, Wipe Away, or Echoing Truth.

godryk

03-04-2008, 05:57 PM

It may sound stupid but I have found Pithing Needle to be the best removal this deck plays after Swords to Plowshares. And then you got stuff like EE. I currently play a single copy of EE in the MB and I found it to be the weakest card in my list, it has it uses but it may be too narrow, anyway, the abilty of getting rid of stuff from onle blue/green mana is something to consider. Being realisitic, there isn't too much to choose.

kicks_422

03-04-2008, 06:43 PM

Removal for what, exactly? Like I've been saying for a while now, Trygon Predators MD (around 2-3) solve a LOT of problems. It might not be as big as Enforcer, but in all honesty I think it wins more games than Enforcer does, nabbing opposing Counterbalances, Chalices, Jittes, Vials, etc.

raharu

03-04-2008, 06:43 PM

Or you CB the coppied Chain, and they walk into giving you a Wasteland... Juat a thought.

Jaiminho

03-04-2008, 11:13 PM

Or you CB the coppied Chain, and they walk into giving you a Wasteland... Juat a thought.

They aren't playing the spell, just copying it, so it won't trigger CB.

linux-ll-

03-05-2008, 11:07 AM

What´s about Oblivion Ring. I love it because it´s a great universal removel.

Mr.Happy

03-06-2008, 04:18 AM

What´s about Oblivion Ring. I love it because it´s a great universal removel.

Oblivion Ring is vulnerable to Grip, Stifle and Deed. It is sometimes bad in combination with EE.

I would rather play:

bounce (Wipe Away, Rushing River)
Engineered Explosives
Trygon Predator
or
Pithing Needle

FredMaster

03-06-2008, 04:22 AM

Interesting...
Do you think Ring can do both, the job of maindeck Needles and Shackles? I'd doubt it. See, I don't believe it does any better than the combination of those two. Needle handles Deed, Survival, EE, Wasteland if you are desperate at finding targets, Vial and so many more.
Shackles gets rid of pesky critters and you'll finish faster at the same time.
I run 2 Maindeck Needles and 2 Shackles and I'm totally satisfied with it.
I participated in several tournaments of about 20 people and I went literally always into the Top8 - we never play out the Top8 btw.

zulander

03-09-2008, 01:17 PM

What does this deck hate seeing? What card(s)/plan(s) generally beat the deck?

Adan

03-09-2008, 02:01 PM

What does this deck hate seeing? What card(s)/plan(s) generally beat the deck?

Ichorid.dec/Dredge/Narcobridge/call it whatever you want.

Compared to the Black variant, you completely lack good graveyard hate (Jotun Grunt is very slowwwwww) and Tormod's Crypt just gives you a littlebit of time while Extirpate and Jailer can completely shut down Ichorid by disabling the mechanic itself. And Extirpate is just flexible.

diffy

03-09-2008, 04:48 PM

What does this deck hate seeing? What card(s)/plan(s) generally beat the deck?

Dedicated control decks are also hard - close to unwinable if you don't pack dedicated hate in the board (Armageddon/Ravages of War, Gaddock Teeg) and something like Pithing Needle in the main.

I'm with Adan though that Ichorid is the absolute worst matchup you can possibly have - you just don't have anything of relevance to them: FoW stalls them only a little, Jotun Grunt is way too slow, Tormod's Crypt isn't that big an obstacle for them.

General stuff this deck hates to see: Counterbalance, Engineered Explosives, Pernicious Deed, hordes of creatures.

Citrus-God

03-09-2008, 08:02 PM

Obfuscate Freely

03-09-2008, 08:27 PM

Adan is right; Ichorid is hard as hell. It is so frustrating that I changed my fetchland configuration to 4 Strand and 3 Heaths instead of 2 Delta, 2 Strand, 3 Heaths just so I can have a Scrubland and 4 Yilix Jailers in the Sideboard. Yilix Jailers are amazing, btw.

Why a Scrubland instead of an Underground Sea?

Also, Polluted Delta can fetch black duals.

Yixlid Jailers are certainly strong against Ichorid, but they seem pretty narrow to me. Do you really see enough Ichorid in your metagame to warrant the dedication of five sideboard slots? I see one or two copies of Ichorid in our tournaments every week, but I still don't board such narrow hate for it.

Nihil Credo

03-09-2008, 10:10 PM

Citrus-God

03-11-2008, 10:05 AM

Why a Scrubland instead of an Underground Sea?

Windswept Heath.

Also, Polluted Delta can fetch black duals.

And the other three fetchlands can't. You already run your 16 Blue sources anyway.

Yixlid Jailers are certainly strong against Ichorid, but they seem pretty narrow to me. Do you really see enough Ichorid in your metagame to warrant the dedication of five sideboard slots? I see one or two copies of Ichorid in our tournaments every week, but I still don't board such narrow hate for it.

So what are better solutions? Tormod's Crypt is nowhere near the strength of Jailer.

linux-ll-

03-11-2008, 12:26 PM

Last Sunday I won a 76 players Legacy tournemant in Germany (Dülmen) with the following list:

Lands
3 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Island
1 Plains
2 Windswept Heath
1 Forest (2)

// Creatures
2 Mystic Enforcer
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Jace Beleren
2 Jotun Grunt

// Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Ponder
3 Daze
2 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Hoofprints of the Stag
3 Predict
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Counterbalance
2 Sensei's Divining Top

// Sideboard
2 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Krosan Grip
2 Threads of Disloyalty
3 Back to Basics

Played against UW Landstill, UW Landstill, Pox with Tombstalker, GWB Survival , UGBW Survival, BW Zombies :tongue: and 5 colored Zoo!
Went 6:1, lost against UGBW Survival.

PhanTom_lt

03-11-2008, 02:28 PM

Jace isn't a creature. And this looks more like TEC to me. Anyway, more about your plays?

linux-ll-

03-12-2008, 05:35 AM

I know that Jace is no creature, but MWS....
And for me it´s definitely no TEC!
I have no notes so it´s hard to remember the games.
Against UW Landstills the Oblivion Rings, Jace and Hoofprints were awesome.
The Rings are unbelievable flexible and you can handle everything like Humility, Crucible etc.!
Against Zoo I lost the first Game! But after sideboarding 3 BeB and 2 ToD it was ok.
UBG Survival hit me really hard, he had everything, I had nothing.
Against BGW Survival I won the first and the third game. Sideboarded Needle, Threads and Krosan Gribs.
I know almost nothing of the Pox Game. Won 2:0 and every Sinkhole ran into Daze.
The easiest game was the "finale" against BW Zombies. The Zombieman played the last 3 rounds against Decks with removal like Smother, Demise and Shriekmaw and they were not able to handle his Korlash :laugh:
With 4 StP and 2 Oblivion Ring I had enough to handle him and my Mystic Enforcer won alone.

godryk

03-20-2008, 11:58 AM

Tacosnape

03-20-2008, 12:23 PM

Another option is Dueling Grounds / Ghostly Prison. It's an absolute beating against Ichorid and pretty nice to have against aggro decks as well. Tormod's Crypt may not be amazing, but it certainly buys you enough time to survive until turn 3.

Why not Propaganda over Ghostly Prison, given that Propaganda pitches to Force of Will (And also given that maybe one Goblin deck in twenty runs Red Blasts?)

Nihil Credo

03-20-2008, 03:08 PM

I was thinking of white answers. But yeah, make that Dueling Grounds / Propaganda instead.

Though I should point out that TES/Belcher make liberal use of REBs and Pyroblasts, so Ghostly Prison is a more reliable answer to EtW for ~8 tokens. But I think Propaganda's upsides are far greater.

Adan

03-21-2008, 10:49 AM

Hey! I've been keep on playing and testing UGw Balanced Threshold and just want to hear your thoughts about two subjects.

1) What do you think about the mirror against "Canadian" Threshold? Tempo Thresh is getting quite popular here in Spain, basically due to our great love to Wasteland (it's some kind of fetish), and, you know, when we heard Threshold could actually play wasteland, we get hard.

2) When you have the countertop engine on the table, does it affect the way you play cantrips? I don't know if this question it's stupid, but sometimes I have a CMC 2/3/4 card on the top of my library and I'm waiting something evil to come (Pernicious, Wrath of God, etc.), in those situations, I frecuently find myself keeping my cantrips in hand and slowing down my game. Is that a mistake? I know avoiding Deed sounds techy, but sometimes I just sit there, with a Predict onthe top, just because I don't have creatures and can't afford a Goyf to get into play. Is that too conservative?

1)

I still think the matchup is in favour of Thrash, UNTIL you can resolve a Counterbalance that shuts off his annoying cards. The problem is that they also run SpellSnare as a very effective Counter and obv. Stifle-Waste to generate a huge speedadvantage, keeping you under pressure.
And Counterbalance also doesn't affect the board situation so you have to handle threats first if there are any and then drop Counterbalance.

Otherwise the timing for playing Counterbalance is always quite shabby as it takes you at least the first 3 Turns to work out fine. In these 3 Turns, the opponent can still interfere with Stifle-Waste and Spell Snares.

2)

Well, as long as you didn't specify any matchup, I would say that it's now wrong. If you feel like you need a critter to start to finish off your opponent, then feel free to dig for it, you can put necessary CCx cards back on top with Brainstorms anyway.
But as long as you don't need pressure, I'd say that it's ok.

godryk

03-21-2008, 12:51 PM

1)

I still think the matchup is in favour of Thrash, UNTIL you can resolve a Counterbalance

Yeah, I do agree. Anyway, with White Stax and Dragon Stompy getting more and more played here, players are including important splits of Trygon Predator and Krosan Grip in their SB, specially considering this cards to be also very good at destroying CB.

Is siding out all our Krosan Grip/Trygon Predator targets a valid SB strategy against Trash? I think that, considering they are holding Spell Snare, Krosan Grip, Trygon Predator and maybe REB's against CB we can side it out to make all those cards dead/less useful. In that case, I need a good non-permanent card to side in for them.

Or do you think it is better to side in the fourth CB to get it asap and replace destroyed ones?

emidln

03-22-2008, 05:41 AM

Yeah, I do agree. Anyway, with White Stax and Dragon Stompy getting more and more played here, players are including important splits of Trygon Predator and Krosan Grip in their SB, specially considering this cards to be also very good at destroying CB.

Is siding out all our Krosan Grip/Trygon Predator targets a valid SB strategy against Trash? I think that, considering they are holding Spell Snare, Krosan Grip, Trygon Predator and maybe REB's against CB we can side it out to make all those cards dead/less useful. In that case, I need a good non-permanent card to side in for them.

Or do you think it is better to side in the fourth CB to get it asap and replace destroyed ones?

Spell Snare is still effective at hitting Daze, Counterspell, and Tarmogoyf. REB is effective against half of your deck. Trygon Predator still flies and forces interaction with SDT each turn (it becomes a mana sink while you are fending off Stifle/Waste unless you choose to lose your SDT). KGrip would be really the only dead card, and Thrash only boards in 2 of them. If they can neutralize 4 Counterbalance without even finding and resolving Krosan Grip, that's a big advantage for them.

Omega

03-26-2008, 08:39 PM

"Spell Snare is still effective at hitting Daze, Counterspell, and Tarmogoyf. REB is effective against half of your deck."

NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER SPELLSNARE A DAZE

Tacosnape

03-26-2008, 08:53 PM

Omega's sort of correct. If you have mana to Spell Snare a Daze, you have mana to pay for the Daze.

Thehunter820

03-27-2008, 06:30 PM

LOL so I was testing a new UGW Thresh list on MWS he plays Tree of Tales, Welding Jar, and then Brass Gnat, then ends turn. So then its my turn, and it goes as follows...

Legacy untaps his/her permanents
It is now the Beginning Phase, Upkeep Step
It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
Legacy draws a card
It is now the Precombat Main Phase
Legacy plays Flooded Strand from Hand
Legacy taps Flooded Strand
Legacy 's life total is now 19 (-1)
Legacy puts Flooded Strand to Graveyard from Play
Legacy is looking its Library...
Legacy puts Tropical Island into play from Library
Legacy shuffles library
Legacy stops looking its Library...
Legacy taps Tropical Island
Legacy plays Mental Note from Hand
<System> Player Lost

He scooped to Mental Note? lol what? what is the world coming to these Daze.

kicks_422

03-27-2008, 08:58 PM

Server problems exist, you know.

With the decline of aggro, what are your thoughts on Meddling Mage? Could he be included in the MD or SB again, or is CB-Top enough?

TrialByFire

03-28-2008, 01:16 PM

I think CB/Top owns Storm/Belcher combo enough, along with Force and Daze and Spell Snare (in my build). I devoted the slots that used to be Meddling Mage to Tormod's Crypt to help against Ichorid and general graveyard shenanigans

noobslayer

03-28-2008, 01:53 PM

I think stifle is better than Meddling Mage as it's more versatile than Mage. Although Mage is more useful against control decks like Landstill which can be trouble some for Threshold.

Adan

03-28-2008, 08:45 PM

I think stifle is better than Meddling Mage as it's more versatile than Mage. Although Mage is more useful against control decks like Landstill which can be trouble some for Threshold.

They are both versatile, with Meddling Mage being also useful against the mirrormatch.

If you fear Landstill, you should rather try Gaddock Teeg. Gaddock Teeg prohibits Wrath of God, Engineered Explosives and Humility while Counterbalance owns Slaughter Pact and StoP, leaving the Landstill-man with 0 removal (but watch out for Decree of Justice!).

Against the 4color Landstills with Deed he's a littlebit weaker, but Deed can be hit with Needles.

But I think it's quite balanced. But Gaddock Teeg is the most versatile card anyways when playing in a field consisting of Combo, Ichorid and Landstill and other shenanigans.

ParkerLewis

04-06-2008, 06:16 AM

I was browsing the Shadowmoor spoiler on mtg salvation and i saw this :

Manamorphose
1{rg}
Instant Common
Add two mana in any combination of colors to your mana pool.
Draw a card.

I think this one definitely deserves some testing. For sure it won't replace brainstorm or ponder, but it might very well take the extra "filtering" slots that are usually taken by Predict or other spells (Mental Note/Serum Visions/whatever). The fact that it's basically "free" could prove somewhat huge, enabling you to play the card you just drew or simply continue with another spell.

The other very neat thing this card has for itself is... being able to be played under a blood moon, AND enabling to play at least one other spell under it. Of course, the relevance of this depends on your metagame, but it looks like the simple inclusion of this card over Predict/MN/SV/whatever could really help in the DS matchup, without any consequence - except not being blue, thus not pitchable to force.

AngryTroll

04-06-2008, 04:49 PM

While interesting, I don't think that Manamorphose is better than the options already available. Predict can be used at end of turn for the same cantrip effect (at worst), add an extra card to the yard, and doesn't result in manaburn. While a cantrip into a Goyf or Counterbalance is great, casting Manamorphose at end of turn isn't going to be as good as many other options.

It is interesting and tempting to cast it and then a Counterbalance, Goyf, or Counterspell, but probably not as good as Predict.

And really, can we stop losing to Blood Moon please? With 7 fetches, 4 basics, Daze and Force, could we please stop losing to an 3 drop?

Thehunter820

04-07-2008, 02:54 PM

ParkerLewis

04-07-2008, 05:36 PM

And really, can we stop losing to Blood Moon please? With 7 fetches, 4 basics, Daze and Force, could we please stop losing to an 3 drop?

I do run 4 basics, but still. Your sentence is really misleading. First, fetches are uneffective under blood moon. Second, blood moon being a 3-drop is not what's relevant. What's relevant is it being dropped on turn 1.

AngryTroll

04-07-2008, 05:42 PM

On the play, fetchlands do indeed work around a Blood Moon. On the draw, you have 4 Force and 4 Basics to look for.

Of course you will lose games where you do not know what your opponent is playing, you do not have a Force, an they drop a first turn Moon. However, on the play you have 11 basics and Daze to go with Force.

PowrDragn

04-21-2008, 06:16 PM

I posted this same e-mail over at The Mana Drain and can't seem to get any feedback, so I figured I would post it here as this board seems a lot more active for legacy.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

I've been playing MTG forever. And I generally stay away from Legacy. I've never had anything against the format. I've just generally focused on Standard.

I've been playing for years though. Some of my favorite decks over that time have been TradewindGeddon and Counterslivers. So, this format was an easy fit for me when I finally decided to play.

But, all that aside. We've finally got a crowd of my customers to start playing Legacy. This meant I had to piece a deck together. I decided to build Threshold. Which btw, this deck needs a new name as it's really not that much about the Threshold part of the deck.

Anyway, here's the list that I've been playing:

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Mystic Enforcer

2 Hoofprints of the Stag
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Counterbalance

3 Serum Visions
3 Ponder

1 Isochron Scepter
2 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath

Sideboard:
2 Propaganda
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pithing Needle
1 Krosan Grip
2 Stifle
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Hydroblast
2 Trygon Predator

I'm sure some of you are going to hate on the one Isochron Scepter, and I probably deserve that. However, there have been a few games where it's landed with a Counterspell on it and locked up the game. It's also handy to get a cantrip (even better with Brainwash) on it when you have Hoofprints out.

I like Serum Visions over Portent, with Counterbalance in the deck, but is there something else I'm missing as to why I should play Portent?

This build also seems to have more permanents than most ofther builds, but Ic ans till achieve Threshold without a lot of problems.

I've played a lot against a variety of decks and even though the deck is potent, I feel like I'm not taking advantage of some situations properly. Also, I'm been giving myself a crash course on the format, so please don't hate on me for not having the proper deck names.

Here's my experience and matchup rundown:

GRW Zoo

This is an interesting matchup honestly. The spell counters, especialyl Daze, seem to be great in this matchup. It plays a bit different against this deck than against other aggro decks it seems. It's also nice having the Oblivion Rings for additional removal. The trick is to not worry about taking damage, just focus on stabilizing at around six life or so. That seems to be key. There are also several situations where I have to stack damage and kill my own guy via StP.

Pre-sideboard, the game actual feels even. Post sideboard, you do get a bit of an advantage.

Mono-Red, artifact Heavy, but not Wildfire

I know that's a junky discription, but I'm not sure what it's classified under. I played a lot of games against this deck, because it has potential to throw a turn one or two Blood Moon/Magus of the Moon with reasonable regularity. I caught myself searching for basics on turn one (and sometimes turn two) in this match. And getting a plains was huge because it allowed me to still play StP, Hoofprints (and activate it), and Oblivion Ring in case things when bad and could let me get rolling again.

The deck plays a full compliment of "2 mana" lands and Chrome Mox, so it was pretty fast. The big hitter was the Double Strike, Hellbent Dragon. Sorry for being too lazy to look up the name right now. If a Moon card snuck through early, the match was extremely difficult. It also hurt if a turn one Chalice of the Void for one happened. Trygons are superstars out of the board if you can get one rollling.

Affinity

This match is relatively easy. The build I've been playing against has a full compliment of Stifle and a couple of charms to get a Phyrexian Dreadnought to stick. Interestingly, there are a few ways to deal with and survive the dreadnought. The reason this match is easy, simply comes downt o you not havnig to worry about a lot of cards. Dreadnought, Ravager, and Cranial Plating seemed to be the only cards I worried about. If I kept those in check or under control I never had an issue. The rest of the cards seemed to be mostly irrelevant.

The Epic Storm

This is by far the toughest deck I get to play against with any regularity. It seems really difficult to even determine what to start with. Dropping guys and applying pressure seems like a solid route, but many times, it was useless. And you have to be SUPER selective on what you counter. I probably need the most help in figuring out this matchup as I'm pretty sure I'm playing it terribly.

Goblins

This match is definitely one I would call favorable. The only games I seem to lose is when they happen to just draw all of the appropriate guys. Oddly, this matchup doesn't feel as lethal as Zoo. I think this is mainly due ot Goblins being of smaller size on a per creature basis. Duress/Cabal Therapy is a problem sometimes and I've had a small issue a time or two with a late game Siege-Gane Commander. I know that sounds dumb, but what can ya do. Overall, though, this game is manageable.

This is about all that I get to play against, so my perspectives might be skewed incorrectly. Two of the players I play against are pretty solid players, the other players are what I would call below avarage to bad. There are more players, with more decks, but most of them (both players and decks) are relatively easy to beat. Part of this is due to a few of them lacking stronger card pools to build from. I've played a few games online, but not very many.

Feel free to trash my build (or help it, which is preferred), and even gauge my assessment of my limited meta thus far.

raharu

04-21-2008, 09:54 PM

Anyway, here's the list that I've been playing:

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Mystic Enforcer

2 Hoofprints of the Stag
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Counterbalance

3 Serum Visions
3 Ponder

1 Isochron Scepter
2 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath

Sideboard:
2 Propaganda
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pithing Needle
1 Krosan Grip
2 Stifle
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Hydroblast
2 Trygon Predator

I like the build. Heavy cantrips, large threat density, just straigntfrward thresh... except for the random one of Scepter. I just hate one ofs, even in a deck like thresh that has a strong filter engine. On the note of one-ofs, what's the deal with that board? Crypt has proven weak in the matches I've used it for, and a Single KGrip isn't going to do much for you, same fr 2 Stifle, and I can't say what you would want Propaganda for.

Mono-Red, artifact Heavy, but not Wildfire

I know that's a junky discription, but I'm not sure what it's classified under. I played a lot of games against this deck, because it has potential to throw a turn one or two Blood Moon/Magus of the Moon with reasonable regularity. I caught myself searching for basics on turn one (and sometimes turn two) in this match. And getting a plains was huge because it allowed me to still play StP, Hoofprints (and activate it), and Oblivion Ring in case things when bad and could let me get rolling again.

The deck plays a full compliment of "2 mana" lands and Chrome Mox, so it was pretty fast. The big hitter was the Double Strike, Hellbent Dragon. Sorry for being too lazy to look up the name right now. If a Moon card snuck through early, the match was extremely difficult. It also hurt if a turn one Chalice of the Void for one happened. Trygons are superstars out of the board if you can get one rollling.

Dragon Stompy. It's a deck pretty much designed first and foremost to hate on thresold, secondly to win. That's dramatizing the situationa significant bit, but it isn't that far-fetched of an analysis. Fetching basics and countering Moon-effects is the best bet you have, aside from fetching a plains in your build because of StP, ORing, and Hoofprints.

PowrDragn

04-22-2008, 12:08 AM

I can gree there. My sideboard is average at best. I'd have no problem replacing the Crypts, Propaganda and maybe even the Stifles. And, like I said, I figured several people would hate the scepter in here. I understand totally.

As for the sideboard, I was wondering if it would be worth it to side in a few creatures of your own (maybe 4 Werebear) for fighting agaisnt the aggro decks, or is it just flat out better to have Threads of Disloyalty? If I brought in another anti-creature answer to slow down the rush, I'd prefer it not be an enchantment as their decks should already be siding in enchantment hate based on the main deck setup.

raharu

04-22-2008, 01:16 AM

No problem with Scepter, I simply dislike one ofs. Run it if you want, Bardo (at least he used to) runs a random one-of EE to solve certaint problems, deal with this or that, whatever.

What problems are you having with what agro decks? This would help with your question. For a general answer, I don't think you need much of a stratgey with zoo or the like. With 10 creatures and 2 Hoofprints of the Stag, you should have enough largh bodies to throw in front of them to stabilize->win. If not, I wouldn't suggest Threads, Shackles or Sower of Temptation. Perhaps Mind Harness for AgroLoam, but even then... It's still not that good, or least from what I've seen. SB Werebears don't sound like a plan either. I think the question really is "do you have enough of a problem with agro and sufficent board space for the MU?".

On a side note, most of your choices for the SB are solid, and I wouldn't suggest cutting Stifle (on the contraty, add 1-2 more) or KGrip, I'm just saying that it's... Messy. Yes, that's the proper word. Messy.

Ironstickman

04-22-2008, 06:29 AM

1 Isochron Scepter
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Hoofprints of the Stag
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Counterbalance

Nice build on the first place,!
but the thing is: Don't you find sometimes difficult to get threshold for your mongooses with so many permanents?

I understand your fondness to a card such as scepter, but won't you consider playing 3 snares instead of the scepter and counterspells?

Adan

04-22-2008, 08:02 AM

Isochron Scepter...? That card is garbage, PERIOD, you have no way to generate cardadvantage except for the Counterbalance Engine and Hoofprints. You would first have to StoP 2 creatures/counter 2 spells with StoP/CS imprinted to compensate the Carddisadvantage. And it's a permanent.

A permanent that makes carddisadvantage doesn't belong to Threshold.

I also question whether it's good to play 2 Hoofprints. i tried it, but as soon as you resolve Hoofprints (which hardly gets handled when it resolved), the other one is dead. Ok, this might be also true for Counterbalance, but that card wins you the game and at least pitches into Force of Will. I don't know, decide yourself whether you want to play 1 or 2, it's a good card at all.

But why you are running a 3/3 split of Serum Visions and Ponder? It doesn't want to make sense to me since Ponder is superior to Serum Visions in every case (and folks, quit bullshitting around with that Bomb - Crap - Crap scenario, it can easily be broken with Predict and Fetchlands. And anyways, Threshold is a good deck, and good decks don't play crappy cards... Ponder doesn't give you a random card which makes it fit to dig for solutions/actual answers and since it reveals more cards to you, it generates a slightly bigger CQ than SV). You may play it like the Hatfields, 4 Ponder and 1 Portent, I like that, too.

But I'm missing Predict as well, it can dispose useless cards and turn it into Cardadvantage. it fuels your graveyard and makes Hoofprints a littlebit faster.
It also helps you to get needless Counterbalances/SDTs into the grave, growing Tarmogoyf bigger. The bigger the Goyf, the better he is (but you all knew that, meh).

Oblivion Ring is absolutely OK. But it may exceed the usual proportion of white cards in the maindeck.
For me, playing Oblivion Ring over Pithing Needle is just a question whether you expect a lot of mirrormatches or other stuff (Oblivion Ring owns the mirror since they can hardly hit him with CBalance, so he actually acts as versatile as Vindicate for example).

My current list looks like this:

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [A] Tropical Island
4 [B] Tundra
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [A] Island (1)

// Creatures
1 [OD] Mystic Enforcer
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [OD] Predict
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [CS] Counterbalance
2 [10E] Pithing Needle
1 [LRW] Hoofprints of the Stag

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 2 [B] Armageddon
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg

The 4/3 split of SDT/CBalance became quite popular, which should be obvious since it owns a lot of decks and can eventually Turn around the odds of a matchwin. When I played Threshold in the past, I was losing to Loamdecks or Pox every time, but now that you have Counterbalances which shuts most of their cards off/disables the Loamengine, it's absolutely possible to win.

It's not that aggressive, but very consistent. Just to give you an example. You may also cut the 4th Counterbalance or move it to the Sb if you feel like you need an additional slot for something else, but I found my list quite acceptable.

But you will get annihilated by Ichorid.

PhanTom_lt

04-22-2008, 09:10 AM

Why Gaddock in the sideboard? He really doesn't do much in this format. Tormod's Crypt would at least help against Ichorid.

Adan

04-22-2008, 09:54 AM

Why Gaddock in the sideboard? He really doesn't do much in this format. Tormod's Crypt would at least help against Ichorid.

He helps me to beat Diffy's Landstill. Frankly, I'm more afraid of Landstill than of Ichorid.
And he's win-more against combo. You may replace them with Meddling Mages, but Gaddock Teeg+Counterbalance shuts off every removal-spell he runs:

WoG, EE, StoP, Slaughter Pact and Ret2Dust.

godryk

04-22-2008, 10:30 AM

KillemallCFH

04-22-2008, 11:49 AM

He helps me to beat Diffy's Landstill. Frankly, I'm more afraid of Landstill than of Ichorid.
And he's win-more against combo. You may replace them with Meddling Mages, but Gaddock Teeg+Counterbalance shuts off every removal-spell he runs:

WoG, EE, StoP, Slaughter Pact and Ret2Dust.Also note that Gaddock Teeg does somewhat help against Ichorid as it shuts off Dread Return, Breakthrough, and Deep Anal. Not that he'll win you a lot of games, but I'd still board him in that matchup.

diffy

04-22-2008, 12:07 PM

Not Quite Balanced /w
by Clemens Wolff

/// Maindeck (60 cards)

// Lands (17)
4 Flooded Strand (http://magiccards.info/on/en/316.html)
2 Polluted Delta (http://magiccards.info/on/en/321.html)
4 Windswept Heath (http://magiccards.info/on/en/328.html)
2 Tropical Island (http://magiccards.info/be/en/299.html)
2 Tundra (http://magiccards.info/be/en/300.html)
1 Island (http://magiccards.info/apac/en/12.html)
1 Forest (http://magiccards.info/apac/en/11.html)
1 Plains (http://magiccards.info/apac/en/4.html)

// Beaters (9)
4 Nimble Mongoose (http://magiccards.info/od/en/258.html)
4 Tarmogoyf (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/153.html)
1 Mystic Enforcer (http://magiccards.info/od/en/290.html)

// Card Advantage (15)
4 Brainstorm (http://magiccards.info/mm/en/61.html)
4 Ponder (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/79.html)
1 Portent (http://magiccards.info/ia/en/90.html)
3 Sensei's Divining Top (http://magiccards.info/chk/en/268.html)
3 Predict (http://magiccards.info/od/en/94.html)

// Permission (12)
4 Counterbalance (http://magiccards.info/cs/en/31.html)
4 Daze (http://magiccards.info/ne/en/30.html)
4 Force of Will (http://magiccards.info/ai/en/42.html)

// Removal (4)
4 Swords to Plowshares (http://magiccards.info/ia/en/278.html)

// Utility (3)
3 Pithing Needle (http://magiccards.info/sok/en/158.html)

/// Sideboard (15 cards)
4 Hydroblast (http://magiccards.info/ia/en/72.html)
2 Blue Elemental Blast (http://magiccards.info/be/en/50.html)
1 Jotun Grunt (http://magiccards.info/cs/en/8.html)
1 Armageddon (http://magiccards.info/po2/en/132.html)
3 Gaddock Teeg (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/248.html)
2 Krosan Grip (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/202.html)
2 Trygon Predator (http://magiccards.info/di/en/133.html)

______________________________________________________________

Gaddock Teeg

You always have to analyse your bad matchups and then have to figure how to make these at least a little bit more favourable.
Landstill is definitely a bad matchup for NQG, but mainboard Pithing Needles (Pernicious Deed, Engineered Explosives) and sideboard options (Gaddock Teeg, Armageddon) can make it actually winnable.
Also, Gaddock is pretty good against a variety of decks reaching from combo (Tendrils of Agony, Empty the Warrens) to other board control to Staxx (Smokestack, Chalice of the Void, Armageddon) - the later two actually being not so good matchups for you.
So if a card is pretty polyvalent and helps to win bad matchups, why not play it?

While we're at it, here's my current version:

(see above)

The main difference between Adan's and my list is that I am still sticking to my basics: if you can, with minimal investment, create virtual card advantage via rendering opposing cards (Blood Moon, Back to Basics, Wastelands etc.) near to useless, why not do that?
Two Mystic Enforcers is absolutely brutal as, with all your digging power, you'll always find one about early.
I also play an enormous amount of fetches to compensate the loss of one Predict (it sucks early because of being a tempo sink but can still make you reach Threshold quicker) and because they are generally way too awesome in this deck (synergy with Balance, Top, Brainstorm, basics).

godryk

04-22-2008, 12:36 PM

Trygon Predator is pretty good against White Stax, since I can just save my FoWs for Armageddon/Ravages of War and win (not that easy, but quite often).

I like your build and I'll try Gaddock Teeg. I was playing a pretty standard list with maindeck CB and Needles. I liked the EE inclusion, as it was one of the best cards against Ichorid, besides unthreshed Mongoose which kept them form swinging and removing their Bridges.

b4r0n

04-22-2008, 12:55 PM

Der_imaginäre_Freund, I've been testing a list very similar to yours. Basically, -1 Hoofprints, -1 Needle, +1 Engineered Explosives, +1 blue producing land. The reasoning behind this is that I've found that I always want at least 16 blue sources in the deck; therefore, with both a Plains and a Forest, I need 18 lands total. Having 4 basic lands is pretty sweet. I hadn't thought about running more than 8 fetches though... 10 fetches is a very interesting idea.

Also, I haven't found Teeg to be that useful... he's decent against Stax and Landstill, but I prefer Predator/Grip and Needle/Geddon, respectively.

Adan

04-22-2008, 01:43 PM

Hi! I played two 4 Tarmogoyf events this weekend and I nearly Top 8 in the first one but get wrecked in the second one. Our meta, although pretty unpredicable, is dominated by Landstill, while White Stax and Dragon Stompy are getting quite popular. Combo is hardly played, seeing play only Ichorid and sometimes Cephalid Breakfast. Threshold wasn't very popular in these events and I never played the mirror. Counterbalance sucked in such a meta where it was only a win-more card in easy matchups.

I still got my Counterbalances and I love the card, I'll probably keep it in the sideboard and you never know when the meta would change, but I need some ideas for a non-CB white Threshold list. I'm thinking in cards like Spell Snare or Stifle and maybe some Oblivion Rings.

Other question: will you keep sensei's divining top in the maindeck with CB in the SB?

EDIT: Gaddock Teeg looks nice for my meta.

If you want to play with Stifle, Spellsnare and probably Wastelands, you should not run Counterbalance since it doesn't fit to the aggressive concept of generating speedadvantage (that's the concept of goobafish's UGr canadian Thresh and Oddball's UGb Birdshit). Those build both don't run Counterbalance but utilize Stifle and Wasteland to generate speedadvantage.

In my opinion, playing a white version would not make sense since they don#t have elements that generate speedadvantage. The splash itself can't support the tempoconcept. Black has got Dark Confidant and Extirpate as the random-broken-card that may amplify the manadenial aspect and red has got 8 burnspells which would make 20 potential damage total. Those potential 20 damage, summed up with the 8 default-critters may allow you to race the opponent very fast. We also run the full set of Wasteland, Stifle and Spellsnares here.

If you want to play the birdshit-style version, I'd recommend UGb or UGr. UGw doesn't fit for that concept and UG is also stupid because i still think there's no reason to abdicate a splash that gives you a lot more flexibility.

Der_imaginäre_Freund, I've been testing a list very similar to yours. Basically, -1 Hoofprints, -1 Needle, +1 Engineered Explosives, +1 blue producing land. The reasoning behind this is that I've found that I always want at least 16 blue sources in the deck; therefore, with both a Plains and a Forest, I need 18 lands total. Having 4 basic lands is pretty sweet. I hadn't thought about running more than 8 fetches though... 10 fetches is a very interesting idea.

Also, I haven't found Teeg to be that useful... he's decent against Stax and Landstill, but I prefer Predator/Grip and Needle/Geddon, respectively.

Why do you need 18 lands? What makes you think Gaddock Teeg isn't useful after Clemens and I elaborated why he's quite good? I mean, sure, it's not necessary to play him, the Hatfields for example also didn't play Meddling Mages in UGw Thresh. Since Counterbalance takes over Meddling Mage's role, you might stuff your sideboard with other slots. But if you are expecting a lot of Landstill, I would recommend him.

@Clemens list:

3 Daze = BLASPHEMY

Singleton Trygon predator in the SB: In this case, you have to release your modular concept. Though you have a lot of cardquality, it's still hard to find a 1of.

The rest: O.K.

Jaiminho

04-22-2008, 01:51 PM

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [A] Tropical Island
4 [B] Tundra
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [A] Island (1)

Adan, how is that manabase going for you? I can only think there are not enough moons in your meta and a few Wastelands only, since you have that huge amount of non basics. I've always been extremely comfortable with 4 basics, 5 duals and 8 fetches (6 blue, 2 gw). When I play with Breakfast (4c), I feel totally insecure because of the all-in manabase style and even lost a game (had to be the finals) due to not reaching the 3rd mana because of 2 Wastelands.

BTW, I play Stifles in my build in some of those flexible slots, since it helps lots against Goblins, Wasteland and Storm.

Adan

04-22-2008, 02:08 PM

Adan, how is that manabase going for you? I can only think there are not enough moons in your meta and a few Wastelands only, since you have that huge amount of non basics. I've always been extremely comfortable with 4 basics, 5 duals and 8 fetches (6 blue, 2 gw). When I play with Breakfast (4c), I feel totally insecure because of the all-in manabase style and even lost a game (had to be the finals) due to not reaching the 3rd mana because of 2 Wastelands.

BTW, I play Stifles in my build in some of those flexible slots, since it helps lots against Goblins, Wasteland and Storm.

The manabase is just fine, I played that configuraton since I read mackaber's post and discussed with tao a littlebit. That was back then when i began to play with Counterbalance and realized that you could not drop it with "Forest" or "Plains".

I learned to play around Wasteland by generating CQ with Ponder/Brainstorm.

Frankly, Blood Moon isn't really an issue here at our tourneys, but they are still Stax-infested. Since you have to keep Crucible of Worlds off the table anyways, I still don'r care really much about Wasteland as long as he doesn#t hardlock me with 3Sphere-Crucible-Waste.

Anyways, Theshold = consistent deck, DS & Stax = inconsistent pile.

Just don#t get upset of you get beaten up g1, there's a shitload of hate you can board (i.e. Grips, EEs, Predators...).

I might also try to play Annuls as a sideboardoption against Stax and DS.

I'm not bullshitting, Annul has got plenty of targets to hit:

- *insert everything Stax plays here*
- *insert half of the cards Dragonstompy plays here*
- *insert some Faerie Stompy cards here*
- *insert everything Enchantress plays here*
- Counterbalance
- Engineered Explosives
- Oblivion Ring
- Humility
- Pernicious Deed
- Standstill
- Goblin Charbelcher
- Aether Vial
- Survival of the Fittest
- Cursed Scroll maybe?
- Equipments
- Manabond/Exploration
- Seismic Assault
- Chalice of the Void

I doubt it will become a savage tech, but it's still interesting for me since out meta is busted like hell. And in such kind of metas, something like that could really make some people drop their chins.

godryk

04-22-2008, 02:11 PM

If you want to play with Stifle, Spellsnare and probably Wastelands, you should not run Counterbalance since it doesn't fit to the aggressive concept of generating speedadvantage (that's the concept of goobafish's UGr canadian Thresh and Oddball's UGb Birdshit). Those build both don't run Counterbalance but utilize Stifle and Wasteland to generate speedadvantage.

In my opinion, playing a white version would not make sense since they don#t have elements that generate speedadvantage. The splash itself can't support the tempoconcept. Black has got Dark Confidant and Extirpate as the random-broken-card that may amplify the manadenial aspect and red has got 8 burnspells which would make 20 potential damage total. Those potential 20 damage, summed up with the 8 default-critters may allow you to race the opponent very fast. We also run the full set of Wasteland, Stifle and Spellsnares here.

If you want to play the birdshit-style version, I'd recommend UGb or UGr. UGw doesn't fit for that concept and UG is also stupid because i still think there's no reason to abdicate a splash that gives you a lot more flexibility.

Thanks for the feedback ang going to the point. Do you think there is viable UGw list that doesn't run MD CB? I mentioned Spell Snare and Stifle as they can be control cards as some control decks run them, I know this isn't a valid argument, but I was just brainstorming, anyway, I agree, white is not a good splash for tempo Thresh.

Adan

04-22-2008, 03:07 PM

Thanks for the feedback ang going to the point. Do you think there is viable UGw list that doesn't run MD CB? I mentioned Spell Snare and Stifle as they can be control cards as some control decks run them, I know this isn't a valid argument, but I was just brainstorming, anyway, I agree, white is not a good splash for tempo Thresh.

To be honest: I have no clue.

I could offer you my "nostalgia"-list:

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [PT] Island (2)
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [B] Tundra
4 [B] Tropical Island

// Creatures
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
3 [OD] Mystic Enforcer
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
4 [NE] Accumulated Knowledge
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
4 [LRW] Ponder
3 [JU] Mental Note
2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
3 [BOK] Disrupting Shoal

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [A] Armageddon
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 4 [A] Blue Elemental Blast

Mental Note to enable Threshold very early so you can smash your opponent's face in quite early in the game already. 4 FoW+4 Daze+3 Disrupting Shoal = 11 free counters. We take carddisadvantage to gain speed (i.e. more aggressiveness)

I play Accumulated Knowledge because I have a asian playset and find them beautiful. And it doesn#t hurt to mill them away with Mental Note. Accumulated Knowledge may also be necessary to compensate the carddisadvantage you took in the earlygame.

But as I said, I just play that list because of nostalgic reasons, it's quite crackbrained. :smile:

But I think it's ok to give you an impression how a aggressive UGw List could look like. But the "aggressive" build from nowadays run Wasteland, Stifle, Spell Snare and either Red for Burn (increased damage-potential) or Black for Dark Confidant and Extirpate (massive CA and solid removal). But both variants are very good at tempogaming.

AngryTroll

04-22-2008, 03:56 PM

I cringe at a lot of the manabases I've seen on the last two pages.

Here's what I've been running, to deal with Wastelands, Wastes+Life from the Loam, and Moons.

4 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

You have 4 basics, and 7 fetches to find them, but only two of them don't tap for blue. You can cast Goyf, Swords, and all the cantrips with a Moon in play, or through repeated Wastelands. On the other hand, you do occasionally have to mulligan a hand with only a Plains or Forest, or a hand with both the non-island lands as the only lands in it. Really, though, the number of times you will need to mulligan (with the most consistently mulliganning deck in the format) is much smaller than the number of times I have been able to cast Goyfs, Mongeese, and Swords under a Blood Moon and win through it.

PowrDragn

04-22-2008, 04:12 PM

I see no problem with the 4 basics strategy. I personally run 3 basics and I've been debating going to 4, strictly to get the extra blue mana.

Also, I noticed what was wrong with my build. With more permanents, a card like Predict becomes even more valuable and I'm not playing it. Going to fix that in the next version I put together.

Thanks for all the input thus far gang.

b4r0n

04-22-2008, 05:21 PM

Why do you need 18 lands? What makes you think Gaddock Teeg isn't useful after Clemens and I elaborated why he's quite good? I mean, sure, it's not necessary to play him, the Hatfields for example also didn't play Meddling Mages in UGw Thresh. Since Counterbalance takes over Meddling Mage's role, you might stuff your sideboard with other slots. But if you are expecting a lot of Landstill, I would recommend him.

I'm running the exact same manabase as AngryTroll: 4 Strand, 3 Heath, 4 Trop, 3 Tundra, 2 Island, 1 Forest, 1 Plains. I think the deck needs a minimum of 16 blue sources to functions, but I also want to have access to both Forest and Plains to survive Moon effects. Therefore, I need 18 lands. Going beneath 16 blue sources makes it difficult to drop turn 2 Counterbalance, which is absolutely essential against many decks. Normally I would only run 17 lands (16 blue sources and a basic Forest), but in the current meta I feel that it's necessary to have basics in all three of my colors; this means that adding a basic Plains means adding an 18th land. In many matchups it'll get sided out, but it's a necessary concession to the presence of Moon effects.

I understand why you think that Teeg is good, and perhaps in a Landstill-infested metagame he might be. But I don't think he's necessary to beat combo, and I don't think he's the best option against Stax. Basically, I think that he's too narrow to take up sideboard slots.

diffy

04-22-2008, 06:04 PM

Manabase issues

Just play more fetches: they're awesome with Top/Balance/Brainstorm/Threshold and fix all the issues stated above. Also, you can cut Duals for fetches all day long in any meta that isn't full of Stifles: you don't really need the duals (I normally always go for the basics first against an unknown opponent) and you only want 1-3 for colour fixing issues (you never want/need more than one dual on the table to be able to cast nearly everything).

This is what I'm playing:

4 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Tundra
2 Tropical
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

Ten fetchies may sound crazy but it is working nicely: you never have colour issues and have easy access to all your basics. Also, the life loss is irrelevant because chances are that you won't see more than 2-3 lands anyway. Playing more fetches than targets is not relevant either because you only need 2 lands to function, everything else is just unneeded. You could make a point for your matchup against something with massive Land Destruction (like Deadguy Ale) going down via having less 'real' lands, but this is more than compensated by being able to sit on fetches until you need them (turn 2-3 to drop a threat).

I understand why you think that Teeg is good, and perhaps in a Landstill-infested metagame he might be. But I don't think he's necessary to beat combo, and I don't think he's the best option against Stax. Basically, I think that he's too narrow to take up sideboard slots.

The only things he doesn't stop against Staxx are the Ghostly Prisons (hardly a problem), Magus of the Tabernacle / Exalted Angel (finally a target for that Swords!) and Crucible/Trinisphere. The former can be ignored thanks to basics and Pithing Needle (naming Factory or Wasteland, depending on the situation), the later is a pain but that's what the Krosan Grip/Trygon Predators are for... if there's a matchup where Gaddock totally shines then it's Staxx.
Also, if a card solves many of your bad matchups and turns good matchups into even better matchups, why not play it (the first criteria obviously being the important one, the second only something which makes it less 'narrow')?

Citrus-God

04-24-2008, 09:04 AM

How often do you mulligan with 14 Blue sources? I often see it as a mistake to run less than 16 Blue sources because if there's one thing I hate it's mulling and I hate running 16 Blue sources still because the deck is lacking cantrips. I believe that if you're going to run two more basics run 18 Lands or something, especially if you have 10 fetchlands.

slyfer

04-25-2008, 05:39 PM

diffy

04-26-2008, 01:38 AM

too much fetchs is clearly a design mistake, when you actually have more fetches than lands it's a problems also for cantrips and the core core of cards (examples: ponder ? ops i cannot use fetch because I would reshuffle....ops I cannot cast a turn 2 predict...ops I cannot find a land in my deck because I craked my 7th fetch...)

I beg to differ... these things might maybe occur in theory - but close to never in practice.
First of all, I've found that Ponder most of the time really is digging for Lands/Counterbalance for turn2 or is just a shuffle effect for your other cantrips. Very, very rarely you actually want multiple of the top cards so that the additional shuffle effects are rather helpful than punishing. The thing with Predict comes up a little more often but if you're setting up a second turn Predict (which isn't that great a play anyway as you want to keep Predict for the midgame to keep on having gas after building up initial tempo via Critters+Daze or Counterbalance), you normally know that since your first turn so that you can fetch/cantrip accordingly.
Regarding the last statement about the amount of Lands in deck and not being able to find any lands after 7 Fetchlands: when was the last time with NQG that you had or wanted more than 7 lands on the table? I'd guess in really long, drawn out games against an opponent that actually attacks your manabase with something recurring (Life from the Loam|Crucible of Worlds + Wasteland - games against Suicide Black style decks don't go as long). Against this, having access to more fetchlands is actually worth gold as you have a better access to your basics negating the need for more lands: seriously, you can function quite well on two lands so why would you ever want to draw additional ones after the 3-4th?

How often do you mulligan with 14 Blue sources? I often see it as a mistake to run less than 16 Blue sources because if there's one thing I hate it's mulling and I hate running 16 Blue sources still because the deck is lacking cantrips. I believe that if you're going to run two more basics run 18 Lands or something, especially if you have 10 fetchlands.

The list is actually playing 15 Blue sources (4 Flooded Strand, 2 Polluted Delta, 4 Windswept Heath, 1 Island, 2 Tropical Island, 2 Tundra). It does happen that you have one of the two non-Blue sources in the opening hand and don't find another land for the second turn Counterbalance in the first turn cantrip - but the event is rather rare and only occurs like every 20-25 games in testing and has yet to happen to me in sanctioned play.
Playing more than 17 Lands is a bad idea in my opinion: even with 17 Lands I tend to get flooded quite a lot and there's nothing worse for the mid- late-game than running out of gas because you only find Lands in your cantrips. I've played 16 Lands before but then had trouble supporting Mystic Enforcer/Hoofprints of the Stag so that I've moved up again.

Citrus-God

04-26-2008, 01:45 AM

Usually, you answer mana flood by running more cantrips... it just makes sense when you want to deny your bad draws.

diffy

04-26-2008, 02:02 AM

Usually, you answer mana flood by running more cantrips... it just makes sense when you want to deny your bad draws.

I'd love to play more cantrips - the problem is just that the list is already pretty tight (Pithing Needles are a necessity in my opinion/meta).
I'm currently playing:

4 Brainstorm (gets better with fetchlands)
4 Ponder (can get better with fetchlands)
3 Sensei's Divining Top (gets better with fetchlands)

I'm not really counting Predict (3) as a cantrip because it doesn't create card quality on its own. So I'm basically playing the 'normal' amount of cantrips minus just a single Predict.
Some versions then opt to play another 1-2 cantrips (Portent or even Fact or Fiction) to get some more stability but I just don't see how that will fit in.

Tacosnape

04-26-2008, 02:48 AM

@DIF: What in your metagame is Pithing Needle solving that Oblivion Ring can't? Factory and Deed come to mind, as well as possibly Survival of the Fittest and/or Goblin Charbelcher.

I ask because I've been tinkering around with a build maindecking 4 Oblivion Rings, which has been fantastic in the mirror thus far for dealing both with Goyfs and Counterbalances.

diffy

04-26-2008, 03:01 AM

What in your metagame is Pithing Needle solving that Oblivion Ring can't? Factory and Deed come to mind, as well as possibly Survival of the Fittest and/or Goblin Charbelcher.

That's basically it. Pithing Needle alone makes the Landstill matchup manageable that's why it is included (Pernicious Deed, Engineered Explosives).
Not being bad in random matchups like Survival (always some in the events here) or Goblins (AEther Vial) is another plus.

Your average German Metagame looks a lot like this (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=227168&postcount=613) , just NQG/aggro control was under-represented at this event, and in that metagame (lots of Pernicious Deeds) Pithing Needle shines.
Also, Pithing Needle is one of those cards that actually does something towards remedying your bad matchups (read: control) rather than making edge matchups or good matchups better - which is the way to go in my opinion (most likely to not take the loss in a long tournament - needed because there're very little tournaments with top8 being played out in southern Germany).

Adan

04-26-2008, 04:50 AM

@DIF: What in your metagame is Pithing Needle solving that Oblivion Ring can't? Factory and Deed come to mind, as well as possibly Survival of the Fittest and/or Goblin Charbelcher.

Aether Vial, Survival of the Fittest, Wasteland, Mishra's Factory, Engineered Explosives, Decree of Justice, Pernicious Deed, Planeswalker (kA...), Nomads en-Kor, Shaman en-Kor, Rishadan Port, Barbarian Ring, Isochron Scepter, Mother of Runes, Jitte, Cursed Scroll, Tormod's Crypt, Chimeric Idol, Nevinyrral's Disk, Powder Keg, Ghost Quarter, Academy Ruins, Gempalm Incinerator, Goblin Charbelcher...

Sure, there are a lot of things that could be handles by Oblivion Ring as well, but for me, maindecking Oblivion Ring depends on how many mirrormatches you expect. Oblivion Ring is nearly proof against Counterbalance and therefore can break it easily (similar to Repeal, but Repeal is more situational since you have to keep a Force of Will in your hand to prevent it hitting the table again).

And Enchantmentremoval is rarely played. But against anything else, Pithing Needle is the faster answer since it's cheaper and can be casted even after you digged through your deck with 3 Mana (considering you have 4 Mana out).

PowrDragn

04-28-2008, 01:16 PM

OK, my latest verison looks like:

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Mystic Enforcer

1 Hoofprints of the Stag
1 Pithing Needle
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Daze
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
3 Predict
4 Force of Will

4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Tundra
3 Tropical Island

Sideboard:
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Pithing Needle
3 Krosan Grip
3 Stifle
4 Hydroblast
2 Trygon Predator

The decks a lot smoother and seems to have cleared up a few problems. Yes, I know it's 1 cards. That doesn't seem to be effecting much right now.

The deck also feels that I have a reasonable answer to each matchup at even given point in a game now. I also am getting threshold pretty reliably (even more so now) thanks to Predict.

The suggestions form everyone seem to help.

slyfer

05-03-2008, 04:22 PM

Adan

05-03-2008, 04:32 PM

I don't like gaddock teeg in a deck with force of will..... I think it's best in deck with discards like BW, or BGW (rock like), because it's a non sense to side in a card that once in play neuters your own cards....
I would try orim's chant or meddling mage.
So every storm deck is a bye (even fetchland tendrils cannot win with mage, counterbalance, stifle, orim, + mongoose).

Why dont you put maindeck 2 krosan grip in place of 2 oblivion ring???
Creatures is not a problem (counter or sword), all the rest is addressed by grip or needle (on deed or explosives). you can free space in sideboard for some icorid hate (like honor the fallen or tormod's)

Ok, first of all, you play Dark confidant together with Force of Will, that's nearly the same, you want to abuse both cards because they rock, but one card might make the other card worse.

Gaddock Teeg shuts off your own force of Wills, but the same is true for your opponent's Force of Wills. And every other card that can be cast can also be hit by Counterbalance - therefor, you don't even need FoW with Gaddock Teeg on the board.

And when Gaddock Teeg dies, you still have your FoWs to force through the last damage to finish off your Opp.

And your argument about Oblivion Ring is also a bad one. Oblivion Ring = Krosan grip+additional creature removal and therefore FLEXIBLE. Krosan Grip is too specific since you sometimes need more removal. It's actually something like Vindicate, and please tell me, would you really run Krosan Grip over Vindicate???

Jaiminho

05-03-2008, 05:38 PM

OK, my latest verison looks like:

[List]

The decks a lot smoother and seems to have cleared up a few problems. Yes, I know it's 1 cards. That doesn't seem to be effecting much right now.

The deck also feels that I have a reasonable answer to each matchup at even given point in a game now. I also am getting threshold pretty reliably (even more so now) thanks to Predict.

The suggestions form everyone seem to help.

I hate Counterspell. I'd never put any in the deck if I didn't have a full set of Dazes. Maybe I'd never put any, like, ever.

Engineered Explosives is one of the best flexible removal cards you could stick into the deck and they are surely better than Oblivion Ring, except for the fact that O-Ring gives you some 3cc goodness for CB.

Hoofprints has never convinced me of being good enough. It's ability takes time to make big things arrive and they can only be used in your own turn. The amount of matches it is completely useless calls for it to leave maindeck and maybe not even see the sideboard.

That Savannah seems ugly to me. I've never found myself in a situation where fetching for a non-basic non-Island land would help me any. You'll be stuck with a single blue mana until you grab that third land and then you wouldn't need that Savannah anymore. Also, you are playing only 5 Island fetchlands. Your basic Island misses you. I'd recommend, with 8 fetchlands, a 6-2 split.

I maindeck 3 Stifles. Good against storm, good against goblins, good against Landstill, good against random stuff, it pitches to force. I like it over Needle.

I would try orim's chant or meddling mage.
So every storm deck is a bye (even fetchland tendrils cannot win with mage, counterbalance, stifle, orim, + mongoose).

Don't get so comfortable with it.

Anyway, my list:

-- Lands
2 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
(Total: 17)

-- Creatures
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Mystic Enforcer
(Total: 10)

-- Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Predict
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Stifle
2 Engineered Explosives
(Total: 33)

-- Sideboard
2 Hydroblast
2 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Krosan Grip
2 Threads of Disloyalty
3 Trygon Predator
(Total: 15)

emidln

05-03-2008, 05:40 PM

[QUOTE=slyfer;229855]I don't like gaddock teeg in a deck with force of will..... I think it's best in deck with discards like BW, or BGW (rock like), because it's a non sense to side in a card that once in play neuters your own cards....
I would try orim's chant or meddling mage.
So every storm deck is a bye (even fetchland tendrils cannot win with mage, counterbalance, stifle, orim, + mongoose).

With Wipe Away, Krosan Grip, Sudden Death, Extirpate, Orim's Chant, and Abeyance the matchup against Mage + CB + Stifle + Chant + irrelevant clock isn't all that bad. Even with Chant and Mage, the threats are relatively equal, with FT even providing parity (if not superiority) in the ability to draw cards. Lists that play Dark Confidant, Counterbalance, or ETW will provide further problems.

Internet Hate Machine

05-03-2008, 09:14 PM

Hoofprints has never convinced me of being good enough. It's ability takes time to make big things arrive and they can only be used in your own turn. The amount of matches it is completely useless calls for it to leave maindeck and maybe not even see the sideboard.

I disagree here. In my, granted somewhat limited, testing I've found hoofprints to be nothing short of amazing, espesially in a meta with a large amount of agro. It's synergy with brainstorm and SDT is nothing to scoff at, and landing it turn two against a fast agro deck can often be game ending in that you provide yourself with a decent speed threat factory that will almost certainly leave you with the better board state. I run a 1/1 split with enforcer, both in the board, and I've never been disapointed with that set up.

Adan

05-04-2008, 01:59 AM

With Wipe Away, Krosan Grip, Sudden Death, Extirpate, Orim's Chant, and Abeyance the matchup against Mage + CB + Stifle + Chant + irrelevant clock isn't all that bad.

Nooo, Mage + CB + Stifle + Chant + irrelevant clock isn't too bad for Fetchland tendrils, nooo... It just gets them like infinite time and Counterbalance shuts off your "drawengine". Fetchland Tendrils also hasn't got a "drawengine" except the Draw4. But with Counterbalance and gaddock teeg out, you are usually dead since Threshold has got the same amount of cantrips to generate cardquality with. And in this situation, Counterbalance prevents you to do so yourself.

Even with Chant and Mage, the threats are relatively equal, with FT even providing parity (if not superiority) in the ability to draw cards. Lists that play Dark Confidant, Counterbalance, or ETW will provide further problems.

Not true, in your up-to-date-list, you run 4 brainstorm, 3 Ponder and 1 Cruel Bargain.
Threshold has got 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, 4 Predict/4 Dark Confidant, which provides a lot of cardquality and cardadvantage to win.

If Fetchland Tendrils can really beat something like Threshold EFFICIENTLY (meaning that you have a matchup percentage above 50%), how come all the FTs are in the loss-bracket of the current Salvation tourney?

raharu

05-04-2008, 02:25 AM

Adan: on a slightly petty note, FT also runs 4x Mystical Tutors, which are big at finding answers (and they have also been testing Lim-Dul's Vault recently). Some pilots also fun Confidants in the board, and if you have Teeg + Cb + Top + Stifle + Orim's Chant (which I've never seen in threshold's SB ever within memory), you got the god draw and would have won anyway because you stacked you deck for them MU :tongue:. I wouldn't say that FT is going to roll thresh, but I won't say it's the other way around either. On a side note, it seems like FT has beenway overhyped recently... Just a comment.

thefreakaccident

05-04-2008, 02:35 AM

I think both sets of players (FT and threshold) are totaly testing their MUs improperly/not caring.

This is what I am starting to see (sad really):

Threshold perspective:

- Threshold has always had a great combo MU, and will never loose to any combo deck ever, no matter what the circumstance.

FT perspective:

-OMG, my 4 mystucal tutors, and 6-7 cantrips will allow me to find everything and anything I could ever want to defeat any blue-based deck.

*No one has used these exact words, but this is what I am reading in my mind.

Now, with that aside, how about you guys actually test these MUs, and not leave it to those of us who actually test our MUs.

EDIT: I may have been rude, but listening to this time and again gets annoying..

EDIT2: Perhaps you guys could playtest against eachother (Emdlin & Adan)... that way you can find good results from 2 decent players with their decks.

Adan

05-04-2008, 02:47 AM

Adan: on a slightly petty note, FT also runs 4x Mystical Tutors, which are ...

...carddisadvantage. And I'm usually very very happy when Fetchland tendrils plays Mystical tutor since I don't need any setup for my Predicts then.

@thefreakaccident: Yeah, you are pretty much right, but I played against my friend who also thought that Fetchland Tendrils can do everything better than IGGy Pop and won 5 out of 5 games. Then, I played TeKo on MWS some days ago and he couldn't do anything against Counterbalance except wiping it away and then still fizzle to the counters that I have collected meanwhile, allowing me to drop CBalance again ftw.

thefreakaccident

05-04-2008, 03:03 AM

In my experience, threshold usually has to assemble CB+top in the first 4 turns in order to win this MU... although I am a lucky bastard and usually succeeded at this task, it was not always the case and whenever it wasn't the case, Orim's chant would rape my mother, twice.

Jaiminho

05-04-2008, 04:42 AM

Just one thing: you never have all answers at all times. If you do, run to a casino and start making money or get ready for another game, because you've just drawn your entire library. It's like FT, with a turn 1 win with double Chant protection.

Thresh is a card quality based deck, just like FT (who said it has a draw engine?), which means both decks need to dig for answers and both run enough of them so they can find something quickly, but it does take time. No deck is at 70-30 against the other here. Not even close to that.

PowrDragn

05-05-2008, 12:13 AM

I hate Counterspell. I'd never put any in the deck if I didn't have a full set of Dazes. Maybe I'd never put any, like, ever.

Engineered Explosives is one of the best flexible removal cards you could stick into the deck and they are surely better than Oblivion Ring, except for the fact that O-Ring gives you some 3cc goodness for CB.

Hoofprints has never convinced me of being good enough. It's ability takes time to make big things arrive and they can only be used in your own turn. The amount of matches it is completely useless calls for it to leave maindeck and maybe not even see the sideboard.

That Savannah seems ugly to me. I've never found myself in a situation where fetching for a non-basic non-Island land would help me any. You'll be stuck with a single blue mana until you grab that third land and then you wouldn't need that Savannah anymore. Also, you are playing only 5 Island fetchlands. Your basic Island misses you. I'd recommend, with 8 fetchlands, a 6-2 split.

I maindeck 3 Stifles. Good against storm, good against goblins, good against Landstill, good against random stuff, it pitches to force. I like it over Needle.

Silly as it sounds, I never have a problem getting the blue. But honestly there are times when I *NEED* to have a white mana. I want to remove something with O Ring or get rid of a creature with StP. And you can always use the fetches to get a multiland if need be. I'm not going to say you are wrong here, because obvious lots of people agree with your land philosophy. I'm likely the one in the wrong, but I'm basing my results on play experience.

Hoofprints has been a very good card to me. And you can get counters relatively quickly between Brainstorm and Predict.

I'm not totally sure that EE is directly better than O Ring. There have been several situations where the cards I needed to get rid of was a problem right then. And I would not be able to cast EE and play it on that same turn to get rid of the problem card.

I can can agree on the Stifle. I would even thinking that if I was going to include a random one-of, Stifle it still probably better than Pithing Needle. It has more uses main deck and less guessing involved.

As for the counterspells, I'm not going to deny that they've been handy. However, I could live or die without them just the same. I'll likely end up removing them and the needle for the fourth daze and two stifles.

linux-ll-

05-16-2008, 02:40 PM

Went 5:2 (6th) on a 77 player tournemant in Iserlohn (Germany) with the following list:

Linus`NQGw

Lands
3 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
2 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Island (1)
1 Plains (2)
2 Windswept Heath
1 Forest (2)

// Creatures
2 Mystic Enforcer
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Jace Beleren
2 Jotun Grunt

// Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Ponder
3 Daze
2 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Hoofprints of the Stag
2 Predict
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Counterbalance
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Regrowth

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Threads of Disloyalty
SB: 3 Back to Basics
SB: 2 Dueling Grounds

b4r0n

05-16-2008, 03:01 PM

List

Congratulations on the finish. Interesting card choices though... no Mongeese, only 9 cantrips (including Top) to support Predict, more Deltas than Strands, and of course the Jaces/Hoofprints/Grunts in the maindeck.

Is that the standard list that you play, or was it adjusted to deal with the metagame? In fact, what was the metagame like, and what did you play against?

linux-ll-

05-17-2008, 07:39 AM

Played against

NQGr with Swarm Combo 2:1
CAL 2:1
UWb Landstill 1:0
Rg Beats 2:0
Rg Beats with Choke main 0:2
NQGr with Swarm Combo 2:1
Rb Goblins 0:2

There were a lot of Landstill and Loam-Decks.
Against Goblins it was absurd. Bad opponent but I had the worst draw ever.
I played 3 Flooded 2 Polluted, was my mistake! Sorry.
I think in my build the Nimble Mongoose are very bad because I have to many permanents and I reach Threshold only in the lategame.
By the way I played 6 big tournaments (not less than 60 players) and was 5 times in top 8 (1st, 2end, 3erd, 3erd and 5th).
Always the same list, except for Regrowth, it was add for the last tournament. :laugh:

PowrDragn

05-18-2008, 01:25 PM

Is Jace really that good. I feel as though I'm missing some important understanding of his abilities within this deck.

diffy

05-18-2008, 05:58 PM

I just wanted to say that I made 2nd place out of thirty-ish people at the monthly Haßloch.

I used my standard list (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=226600&postcount=1074) and went 4-1, going 8-3 in games.

I played against:

RBg Vial Goblins 2:1
BWG Suicide 2:0
Urg Painter's Combo 2:0
Ichorid 0:2 (I got paired down...)
Tempo NQG/b 2:0

Overall the list was amazing, especially going down to three Predicts was a good move as I didn't have any clogging my hand the entire tournament long but always found one via cantrips to refill my hand in the later midgame.
As now, I wouldn't change a single slot in the list, especially Pithing Needle (which many people have dismissed) and the three Basics were good all day long.

Report (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=235012#post235012)

ParkerLewis

05-19-2008, 02:47 PM

Adan

05-19-2008, 03:33 PM

Congratulations on the nice finish !

You didn't specify your list (unless i missed it somehow) in your report. Is it the same you've posted a few pages ago ?

Congratulations one more time.

Take a look again, the "list" is underlined and blue, it leads directly to Clemens' build(out build, I actually play the same except that I run a 4th Predict instead of the 3rd Needle and a different manabase configuration.

godryk

05-21-2008, 06:28 PM

I used my standard list (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=226600&postcount=1074) and went 4-1, going 8-3 in games.
Report (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=235012#post235012)

// Lands (17)
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Windswept Heath
2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

Congrats on the finish! I just want to hear your thoughts about the 10 fetchland manabase and the reasons that made you choose this configuration. I supose it's a nice way to help us reach threshold a little quicker in heavy-permanent builds such as CB ones, but I'm not sure about having only seven valid targets and how it affects the manabase development in the late game.

And considering Landstill is the deck to beat in my meta, how would be your SB plans against Landstill if you were running that list?

diffy

05-22-2008, 04:01 AM

I just want to hear your thoughts about the 10 fetchland manabase and the reasons that made you choose this configuration. I supose it's a nice way to help us reach threshold a little quicker in heavy-permanent builds such as CB ones, but I'm not sure about having only seven valid targets and how it affects the manabase development in the late game.

The 10-fetchland manabase is awesome: lots of fetchlands give you easy access to your basics (important in quite some matchups), give you better game against Sinkhole/Wasteland (just sit on the fetchies until you need them) and help you to reach Threshold. They also thin your deck and help with Counterbalance/Top/Brainstorm. Having only 7 targets is not a problem as all you'll ever need are 4 mana - and 7 targets with 10 fetches is actually better against manadenial than 8 fetches and 9 lands because you can slowroll your fetchies.

And considering Landstill is the deck to beat in my meta, how would be your SB plans against Landstill if you were running that list?

It all depends if you're playing against UWb Landstill with Wrath/Humility or against Landstill with Deed.

Against UWb Landstill I'd board like this:
-2 Swords to Plowshares
-4 Daze
-1 Ponder
+3 Gaddock Teeg
+2 Krosan Grip
+2 Armageddon
Swords are boarded out because he only has 5 good targets and 4 of those are also hit by Krosan Grip.
Dazes come out because the game will always get dragged out so that they become blanks in your hand.
Teegs get boarded in because hardlock with CounterTop, good against his removal and pretty good on their own too as they only leave him with Swords and Cunning Wish as removal.
Armageddon: Although dis-synergy with Teeg, resolving this puts you into a good position. Also, if you already have Teeg out, you don't need Geddon in most cases and can save it for when Teeg is handled

Against UbgX Landstill I'd board like this:
-4 Daze
+2 Krosan Grip
+2 Armageddon
But the matchup is generally speaking better than against Landstill with Wraths as you can shut down most of their removal with Needle.

The matchup isn't great but Uwg actually has a fighting chance post-board, especially against UbgX Landstill. If Landstill is that dominant in your meta, I still wouldn't play Gro though.

FredMaster

05-22-2008, 08:07 AM

Since this deck keeps playing more basic lands, what do think of Back to Basics in SB against pesky Landstills for example?

linux-ll-

05-23-2008, 12:00 PM

Great Card

FredMaster

05-23-2008, 01:47 PM

Better than Armageddon though?

Adan

05-23-2008, 03:15 PM

Since this deck keeps playing more basic lands, what do think of Back to Basics in SB against pesky Landstills for example?

Great Card

Better than Armageddon though?

No. -.-

Back to Basics is as situational as Blood Moon in MoonThresh. And well, it's Clemens who's raising the Basic Land-Count, in Threshold, but as well as in UWb landstill, which makes Back to Basics worse. Even though he IS playing against threshold, he will be fetching Basic Lands together first. And they always untap as normal. Then he just needs 1 black manasource and can play EE set on 3 to handle it.

Anyways, Fetchlands still work, which allow Landstill to fetch together Basic Lands so Back to Basics is not a good choice. Back to Basics may be a savage tech against the mirrormatch and every 4color landstill variant, but a lot of people already noticed that UWb Landstill is... well, better!

raharu

05-23-2008, 03:50 PM

No. -.-

Back to Basics is as situational as Blood Moon in MoonThresh. And well, it's Clemens who's raising the Basic Land-Count, in Threshold, but as well as in UWb landstill, which makes Back to Basics worse. Even though he IS playing against threshold, he will be fetching Basic Lands together first. And they always untap as normal. Then he just needs 1 black manasource and can play EE set on 3 to handle it.

Anyways, Fetchlands still work, which allow Landstill to fetch together Basic Lands so Back to Basics is not a good choice. Back to Basics may be a savage tech against the mirrormatch and every 4color landstill variant, but a lot of people already noticed that UWb Landstill is... well, better!
UWb is better than other Landstill, 4c Threshold, or threshold in general?

Also, Back to Basics is pretty terrible tech unless you run a really strange manabase (i.e. running <4 Duals and 9-10 fetchlands).

Shugyosha

05-23-2008, 04:14 PM

Back to Basics is no Blood Moon for sure but its still better than Armageddon.

Decks you board your anti-land plan in usually play more lands, can usually recur lands and play Wastelands/Manlands. BtB costs one less and with basics fetched out you can still operate quite normal because your deck needs only 3-4 mana. Landstill on the other hand is severely crippled for at least some turns and will have to play slower than usual. BtB also shuts down his Mishra win condition. With crucible he can begin to waste his lands to recur them untapped but needless to say that it is slooow.

Geddon destroys your precious (basic)lands and your opponent will be more likely recover earlier than you. Crucible also makes Geddon a dead card while BtB is still good. And to use Geddon to full effect you need a beater out. BtB does not depend on other cards.

Goblin Snowman

05-23-2008, 08:21 PM

Decks you board your anti-land plan in usually play more lands, can usually recur lands and play Wastelands/Manlands. BtB costs one less and with basics fetched out you can still operate quite normal because your deck needs only 3-4 mana. Landstill on the other hand is severely crippled for at least some turns and will have to play slower than usual. BtB also shuts down his Mishra win condition. With crucible he can begin to waste his lands to recur them untapped but needless to say that it is slooow.

Back to Basics does not prevent Fetchlands, and a standard WUB Landstill deck will have 6+ Basics they can nab. This is in addition to Back to Basics being removed via Cunning Wish for Disenchant. Armageddon is a much better card in this matchup due to the high chance at winning outright if it resolves, Crucible in play or no.

Geddon destroys your precious (basic)lands and your opponent will be more likely recover earlier than you. Crucible also makes Geddon a dead card while BtB is still good. And to use Geddon to full effect you need a beater out. BtB does not depend on other cards.

Again, Landstill is fully capable of running on 4ish Basics fetched/Plains Cycled out until they feel the need to Cunning Wish for Disenchant. Crucible does negate some of Armageddon's damage, yet it will still take Landstill a good number of turns to reach a safe amount of mana. Back to Basics does not preform amazingly against Landstill, even if it's not dependent on other cards. Against Loam varients, Back to Basics is far more relevant, however.

Omega

05-23-2008, 10:30 PM

here is my sidebord

4 beb
2 COP red
2 krosan grip
3 pithing needle
2 jotun grunt
2 tormod's crypt

It's been like the third or fourth time i lose to Mono red burn. COP are usually not in my SB, but i went spying just before the tournament and saw alot of Red deck, so i put two of them in.
I feel that BEB are poor sb card against Red Burn. They dont give you any advantage, its a 1-1 trade and he is most likely going to draw another one. COP red can be game for them, but 2 is low. I dont like the idea of playing more because they are dead cards against the other deck in my local metagame

any suggestion? I want to improve my burn matchup, while keeping a good sidebord against the rest of the field

my meta is (its usually a small 30- person tournament) :
3-4 Aggro/control (ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh, fish, Deadguy)
many T2 upgraded deck
3-4 BURN
2-3 Zoo
1 Fetchland tendrils
1-2 Standstill
1 Slide
ichorid
1-2 belcher
1 cephalid breakfast
1 survival
aggro deck

thank you

Robert

Citrus-God

05-24-2008, 12:48 AM

Back to Basics does not prevent Fetchlands, and a standard WUB Landstill deck will have 6+ Basics they can nab. This is in addition to Back to Basics being removed via Cunning Wish for Disenchant. Armageddon is a much better card in this matchup due to the high chance at winning outright if it resolves, Crucible in play or no.

Dont forget Eternal Dragon. That grabs either the 3rd Color for EE or a Basic Plains which can be used later.

ParkerLewis

05-24-2008, 02:54 AM

any suggestion? I want to improve my burn matchup, while keeping a good sidebord against the rest of the field

If you run the countertop engine, the matchup should be very favorable, or there's something very wrong.

b4r0n

05-24-2008, 02:57 AM

any suggestion? I want to improve my burn matchup, while keeping a good sidebord against the rest of the field

I'd make sure you have access to 4 Counterbalance post-board. CB is amazing against burn (since basically everything costs 1 or 2), especially in conjunction with BEBs. Other than that, you should be fine... the key to winning the matchup is either assembling Counter-Top quickly or dropping a fat Goyf and racing them.

Mister Agent

05-24-2008, 03:40 AM

One of the main components that makes UWb landstill a strong contender in the current environment is the deck's manabase. A compotent landstill player can just bypass bloodmoon and back to basics with no problem at all. I'd feel much better casting a armageddon instead if I was the threshold player.

Armageddon reverses the whole philosophy on how landstill is played by maintaining or increasing a edge by playing more lands. While back to basics and bloodmoon can only reverse it halfway against the 3c landstill builds generally.

Adan

05-24-2008, 04:34 AM

Thank Gob Snowman, Anti and Agent Funk for confirming that Geddon > B2B debate.

They don't even need Cunning Wish for Dismantling Blow/Return to Dust since they will have enough Basic Lands to operate normally (like using EE as sweeper, casting WoG, Humility, Wish for random stuff).

The argument that Back to basic slows down Landstill is somehow senseless since Armageddon does exactly the same thing as described in the B2B scenario except that it destroys the basiclands as well. So the board will usually end up like this:

You both 0 lands, you have threats, he doesn't. And he's not able to operate well when he's shortened in his mana resources, but you are still capable of operating the deck with all teh cantrips which generate CQ. Sounds fair, doesn't it?

Back to Basics might be a savage tech against the mirrormatch for sure, but only against people like me, who play a maximum of 2 basic Islands (I do currently because the Delta vanished into my Highlander xD).

But against Clemens I believe it would be useless since he plays 10 fetchland which easily allow him to fetch together his basiclands within a few turns.

Citrus-God

05-24-2008, 04:48 AM

The argument that Back to basic slows down Landstill is somehow senseless since Armageddon does exactly the same thing as described in the B2B scenario except that it destroys the basiclands as well.

Adan is right; B2B may slow Landstill down, but Armageddon is an insta-win against Landstill if set-up properly.

So the board will usually end up like this:

You both 0 lands, you have threats, he doesn't. And he's not able to operate well when he's shortened in his mana resources, but you are still capable of operating the deck with all teh cantrips which generate CQ. Sounds fair, doesn't it?

They might even drop a Counterbalance down just to keep you from playing your EE with only 2 lands available to you. Does it still sound fair?

Adan

05-24-2008, 06:10 AM

They might even drop a Counterbalance down just to keep you from playing your EE with only 2 lands available to you. Does it still sound fair?

Of course. Even if the reach 3 Mana to avoid EE being hit by a CC2 spell from the top, after Armageddon resolves, Daze becomes a mighty mighty hardcounter again.

Shugyosha

05-24-2008, 05:48 PM

Adan is right; B2B may slow Landstill down, but Armageddon is an insta-win against Landstill if set-up properly.

How come that nobody is talking about set-up and that it is neccessary when comparing the two cards...

Adan

05-24-2008, 06:06 PM

How come that nobody is talking about set-up and that it is neccessary when comparing the two cards...

Setup of Back to Basics:

Fetch Basic Lands, play/have threats, defend it. Your opponent can still operate and cast WoG, himility, an EE which avoids CBalance and whatsoever.

Setup of Geddon:

Have 4 Lands (no matter which ones), have threats, force it through. You get X Time Walks. You opponent is under big pressure since he usually can't reach 4 mana after a resolved Armageddon, which leaves him only EE and StoP as outs which can be hit by CBalance and/or Daze.

Shugyosha

05-24-2008, 08:46 PM

Have 4 Lands (no matter which ones)

If you don't want to loose your basics you cannot fetch for them but as you usually don't know if Armageddon will show up you will need to fetch one or two basics which you will loose with Geddon. If the Geddon plan fails (no beater, Counter, Sword on beater in response, recovers quickly) you've lost valuable basics.

have threats, force it through.

You have to force through a threat first, the opponent should better not have a Swords for your Goyf (Nimble is another case), shouldn't have a Crucible and you still have to get the Geddon through, too.

You get X Time Walks. You opponent is under big pressure

I've never doupted that. I killed Landstill decks with it myself. Nevertheless BtB don't need setup. It concurs with your strategy to fetch basics and then stop getting further lands. It is not as devastating as Geddon but it buys a great amount of time.

Goblin Snowman

05-25-2008, 11:52 PM

Whether or not Back to Basics requires as much setup is irrelevant, as the card simply does not do much. Landstill, unless they're 4C (which is far less common in most metagames, from what I've heard) has far more Basics than you, roughly the same amount of fetches and Eternal Dragon. Their plan won't really change after you drop Back to Basics unless they were forced into tapping out on their turn for some reason, and had drawn/fetched no basics. Not only that, a huge amount of Landstill lists run Engineered Explosives, which easily removes Back to Basics. Armageddon, even though it requires setup (i.e., a creature on the board, so very little setup) generally nets 5-6+ of their lands, which a card and tempo swing they are not likely to be able to recover from.

If you really hate Armageddon for some reason, try Winter Orb, which while inferior in my mind, is better that Back to Basics.

Adan

05-26-2008, 04:13 AM

If you really hate Armageddon for some reason, try Winter Orb, which while inferior in my mind, is better that Back to Basics.

Good point, Winter Orb was played in UGr Thresh in the old builds with Dragon (not MoonThresh) and the BTS-builds. But know Blood Moon was established.

And black has got a way different way to disrupt controldecks (Thoughtseize-Extirpate, CBalance. Or Stifle-Waste-Extirpate-Spellsnare).

But Winter Orb is indeed a very useful card.

undone

06-04-2008, 06:08 PM

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Predict
2 Repeal
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Ponder

3 Counterbalance
2 Hoofprints of the Stag
1 Threads of Disloyalty
2 Pithing Needle
2 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
2 Island
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Windswept Heath
Sideboard:

3 Jötun Grunt
4 Hydroblast
3 Krosan Grip
3 Stifle
2 Armageddon

I really like this deck but am concerned about the ichorid MU. I really dont want to punt the random ichorid MU. although it may be unavoidable.

My sideboard is really set in, I want to keep geddon, stifle grip blast and grunt. They all work well I just need them to beat the landstill MU.

Grunts are there for lands.dec anything running loam+ mirror.

Jaiminho

06-04-2008, 07:52 PM

If you replaced Jötun with Crypts, you could enjoy that few extra time you'd have against Ichorid to find some Engineered Explosives or to beat their face. That said, I'd stick 2 EE maindeck. It's useful basically against everything, so why wouldn't you run it?

godryk

06-05-2008, 05:43 AM

I do agree. I also run two MB EE and I've always liked it, never found it disappointing, and I found it to be the key in the Ichorid matchup, allowing me to win some Ichorid matchups. It can also provede card advantage.

Well, after some time seeing similar lists I want to ask you all about this kind of builds:

http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?type=Threshold+UGw&format=Legacy
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=15117

I've seen a lot of top 8 placings with similar heavy-permanent lists and I have to start thinking this can be some good. Those lists may look a little odd, but I sometimes find Nimble Moongose a little disappointing in a CB build, by removing Nimble Mongoose we don't care about Threshold anymore (Mystic Enforcer comes later), but I don't know if the deck becomes too Tarmogoyf dependant in the early game... What are your thoughts?

MeddlingMage001

06-05-2008, 06:46 AM

Your second link shows a list from my teammate.. because of the high permanent count they cut the mongeese and replaced them with grunts and hoofprints and it works very well. This list top8'ed a few times at Dülmen and Iserlohn.

FredMaster

06-05-2008, 12:59 PM

oO
Because of the high permanent count you swapped Mongoose with Grunt?
Grunt needs the graveyard as much as Mongoose does, or did I miss something?

linux-ll-

06-06-2008, 06:20 AM

[QUOTE=MeddlingMage001;240022]Your second link shows a list from my teammate.. because of the high permanent count they cut the mongeese and replaced them with grunts and hoofprints and it works very well. This list top8'ed a few times at Dülmen and Iserlohn.[/QUOTE

By the way it was my idea to cut the Nimble Mongesse because of high permanent count (CB,Jace,Hoofprints,Oblivion Ring).
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=14820
All in all its a completely different deck unlike as "UGW Threshold".
More control and you´ll never win in the early game. In my opinion its not "Threshold", I´m searching for a better name maybe some guys here know a great name.:wink:
I think that this kind of deck has much potential, I played it five times on big German Legacy tournaments (minimum 50 players) and top8´ed all the time :tongue:

Adan

06-06-2008, 06:42 AM

By the way it was my idea to cut the Nimble Mongesse because of high permanent count (CB,Jace,Hoofprints,Oblivion Ring).
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=14820

You have cut Mongoose for Jace and Hoofprints, so where's the difference?
You still have the same permanentcount as before. Not playing win-more stuff like Oblivion Ring would already help to improve Nimble Mongoose, as well as raising the amount of Predicts.

All in all its a completely different deck unlike as "UGW Threshold".
More control and you´ll never win in the early game.

Then why should we copy your list if it sucks in the earlygame because it's not able to apply pressure?

In my opinion its not "Threshold", I´m searching for a better name maybe some guys here know a great name. :wink:

P.o.C.

I think that this kind of deck has much potential, I played it five times on big German Legacy tournaments (minimum 50 players) and top8´ed all the time :tongue:

Iserlohn and Dülmen which are both still pretty random though they have established Legacy since 2 years now. And Dülmen is always publishing only the Top3 lists because they still have the stupid logic of that "Bronze-Silver-Gold"-circle.

MeddlingMage001

06-06-2008, 06:45 AM

Shugyosha

06-06-2008, 08:36 AM

Then why should we copy your list if it sucks in the earlygame because it's not able to apply pressure?

So nobody should play Landstill then?

Besides, he never said it sucks in the earlygame, it just does not win easily in the earlygame as it is more controllish.

Every time somebody is talking about the list you are making comments about how stupid it is and how random the metagame in Iserlohn and Dülmen is. Have you played in Iserlohn and Dülmen yourself during the last year? Have you tested the list which apparently must be strong as it won several big tournaments in the hands of several capable players?

linux-ll-

06-06-2008, 08:51 AM

So nobody should play Landstill then?

Besides, he never said it sucks in the earlygame, it just does not win easily in the earlygame as it is more controllish.

Every time somebody is talking about the list you are making comments about how stupid it is and how random the metagame in Iserlohn and Dülmen is. Have you played in Iserlohn and Dülmen yourself during the last year? Have you tested the list which apparently must be strong as it won several big tournaments in the hands of several capable players?

Related discussion, great! :laugh:

linux-ll-

06-06-2008, 08:58 AM

I wrote 'they' and i meant YOU and my teammate.. He said that he talked to you and wanted to give your build a try.

Without Threshold Mongeese suck... and this list has problems in getting Threshold. Grunts are still 4/4 for a few rounds and mind that you can also take your opponents grave :tongue:

I first wasn't very impressed by this build but it is far more consistent than you may think.

Sorry my mistake! Absolute Jotun Grunts are a metagame choice. In Iserlohn/Dülmen there are a lot of Loam and NQG and in my opinion (played CAL/Aggroloam for a very long time :wink: ) Grunts are pretty strong against these decks especially CAL/Aggroloam.

diffy

06-06-2008, 09:23 AM

So nobody should play Landstill then?

He's talking about NQG and nothing else... and I have to agree with him as cutting down even further on your aggro side (remember, you're still aggro-control) is not exactly something you want to do - especially if you only gain one additional power in the lategame and therefore sacrifice a lot of power early (like Mongoose blocking Lackey or like Mongoose just being able to sit there until you have Threshold)... for sure Jotun Grunt is more flexible than Nimble Mongoose, but I don't think that he's worth it over the Mongoose.

Let's compare their pros and cons:

Jotun Grunt
Pros:
Bigger than Mongoose
Graveyard Hate
cmc2 for Counterbalance
Cons:
Only good in the late midgame or later
Close to useless in the first few turns and therefore bad at stalling for time
In the smallest splash colour

Nimble Mongoose
Pros:
Shroud - very relevant especially against your bad matchups (control)
Can get down early and just sit around and ping the opponent until he grows
Cons:
No added utility - straightforward beater
Rather small

We now have to weigh the pros and the cons of both beaters according to the Legacy metagame:
Jotun Grunt, the Graveyard-hoser:
The Graveyard hate part of Jotun Grunt is a nice bonus because of deck like Survival (Genesis, Anger, Squee, Cabal Therapy), Combo (Ill-Gotten Gains, Ichorid), or anything using Crucible/Life from the Loam (lands).
However, above mentioned decks are rather rare and not a bad matchup to begin with (if you don't count Stax where the slowness of Grunt is more relevant than his random hosing of Crucible).
If you happen to not have a Goyf of your own, Jotun Grunt can also shrink the opposing Goyfs or other graveyard dependant critters (Nimble Mongoose, Werebear, Mystic Enforcer, Tombstalker etc.).
However, Grunt is rather slow at doing so (you need 3 turns to shrink a 7-card Graveyard and most of the time 2-3 turns to get a Goyf smaller than Grunt). Also, he's a bad blocker which is especially relevant against dedicated aggro.
Nimble Mongoose, the Untouchable:
Shroud is a rather relevant ability making of Nimble Mongoose a threat in the first place - he can most of the time only be removed via blocking with something bigger or via mass-removal which is rather scarce outside of that which falls prey to Pithing Needle.
However, Mongoose isn't the most scary beater in existence
Mongoose coming down earlier and not needing any other dedication than 7 cards in the graveyard (while not being dead before that!) is also a further bonus as you often have to race control decks (especially decks like Stax or others which can more or less ignore Counterbalance).

Much can be said about those two cards, but I think that the conclusion is clear, especially because you already have a rather great lategame thanks to Counterbalance, Predict, Mystic Enforcer, Sensei's Divining Top and Hoofprints of the Stag so that you don't need any other stuff for 'later' especially not if that stuff weakens your early game where you are most vulnerable and weakens some of your worse matchups (Control, Aggro).
Jotun Grunt might still be a decent choice if there's lots of Graveyard dependant decks in your metagame, but for the general metagame I would strongly advise against playing them - especially since you're already set rather well against anything that tries to abuse the graveyard and is not Ichorid thanks to Counterbalance stopping Life from the Loam recursion shenanigans rather consistently.

Have you played in Iserlohn and Dülmen yourself during the last year? Have you tested the list which apparently must be strong as it won several big tournaments in the hands of several capable players?

A list performing well has to do with several factors: the list itself, the pilot, the matchups he faced etc. especially the last one being a huge factor influencing success in the random Legacy Metagame. Therefore a list performing well doesn't necessarily have to mean that it is a good list as the pilot can just be skilled or lucky matchups wise.
Also, a list with rather unconventional choices doing well in a tournament does also not have to mean that the pilot would have done worse without those choices - maybe the core of the deck is just that strong that it doesn't really matter much what you play to accompany the core-structure of cards.

Also, we live way to far away from Is/Dü to come up frequently, especially since this would be inefficient both time and cost wise as well as there being diminishing incentive to do so as the tournaments in Hassloch grow in popularity every month so that soon we'll also have sufficient people to compete in size with Is/Dü.
Know though that team SPOD (two members) was present once in Iserlohn - and one ploughed through the field and took first consequently (Stefan 'spirit of the wretch' Czolk - October 2007).

Shugyosha

06-06-2008, 11:19 AM

@ der imaginäre Freund:

I'm fully aware that you guys are living too far away to attend Iserlohn and Dülmen and I also know who Stefan is (I played against him at the Legacy Champs 07) and that he once played in Iserlohn. All I'm trying to say (in the post above) is that it is not very constructive to say that both tourneys are random if Adan wasn't there and its also not very constructive to say the list is crap because it proved itself several times and good players choose to run it. I appreciate your effort to at least discuss the list, thats all what I wanted.

@ Lists

The things you said about the two creatures are true in every aspect but I have to add that Grunts also take out recursion targets that are hard to hit by Counterbalance like: Genesis+beater (Vore, Crusher), Witness on something in the grave (Deed for example) and with Grunt + Balance you simply have more outs to Loam decks.
Grunt + Swords is also the most effective mainboard hate against Ichorid you can wish for. Even a dying Grunt usually takes a Bridge or two with them. Sure the matchup is still not good but much better.

But the more important aspects are that
1. Grunts can combat Threshold very effectively. As the opponent wants to fill his grave quickly you can play Grunts in the earlygame where he dominates the game for some rounds.
2. with this deck you want to get into the mid-lategame so Grunt is perfect for buying time if needed. A 4/4 is nothing to laugh at turn 3-4, especially if it shrinks Goyfs.
That are the reasons why I ran Goyf SB in the original Hoofprints list and still do. They are amazing in the mirror and fit the aggro part when it comes to graveyard hate because a Crypt isn't very aggro :laugh:

There are also problems I faced with the no-Geese lists regarding Grunts:
1. They shrink your Goyfs which is not a problem if the opponent also run Goyfs but sometimes a large problem with Goyfless opponents because slow down yourself. It doesn't happen all the time but it happens.
2. Oblivion Ring is very very powerful but woefully antisynergetic with Grunt. When playing Geese you have one permanent more per Ring. When playing with Grunts you play a permanent to remove another one which robs you two cards which would otherwise help to keep the Grunt alive.

undone

06-06-2008, 11:59 AM

(My list)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Predict
2 Repeal
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Ponder

3 Counterbalance
2 Hoofprints of the Stag
1 Threads of Disloyalty
2 Pithing Needle
2 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
2 Island
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Windswept Heath

Sideboard:

3 Jötun Grunt
4 Hydroblast
3 Krosan Grip
3 Stifle
2 Armageddon

A page back I posted my list and people said to add in EE, I could only see cutting something like 1 Swords for it, but I dont know how that would work out. It seems like the deck is so tight, theres few cards I dont want to see.

Grunt is AMAZING in the board because in the mirror/ other threshold MU, geese are awful.

Shugyosha

06-06-2008, 12:11 PM

(My list)

You are running my list (http://www.trader-online.de/turniere/Decks/2007-12-T15.html) list card for card + SB! I'm playing it since December. People seem to forget...

Its good as it is but you might try:

-1 Hoofprints
+1 Mystic Enforcer

as "der imaginäre Freund" plays it. Still not sure if its better but its definately not worse.

Needles could be replaced for EE. Needles are good but I usually would have liked to draw EE much more often than drawing Needles. Its meta and playstyle depend though.

undone

06-06-2008, 12:23 PM

I love needle, I would never cut it. I REALLY love it. Needle deals with the following problem cards

Factory
Deed
EE(ironic isnt it)
Wasteland <--- key in alot of MUs
Seismic assault (if it resolves it REALLY is a pain)
Jace/garruk
SURVIVAL
Top if they manage to get a top before you (Repeal returns CB/it well enough)
AETHER VIAL
Rashadan port
Acadamy ruins
Fetchlands (when crucible is out..)
Jitti
All equipment
Arc slogger (really relivant actualy)
Pit dragon (so much worse as a hill giant with D strike)

I didnt think the needle was alterable AT ALL, seems like its the only card stoping some MUs from being auto losses.

Shriekmaw

06-06-2008, 12:42 PM

raharu

06-06-2008, 01:22 PM

I think Pithing Needle is a metagame card. Some players may found it more useful than others. In the traditional UGw build, there is room to add needle, but I believe the stronger builds play additional splashes which usually finds needle in the board if at all.

I never get too hyped about a certain card in the deck. It may seem good in the right metagame, but I believe you can make a very strong threshold deck without it also. In my opinion, its a debable card.
Quoted for truth. Needle is pretty sick in some matches and horrible in others. There are a good few metagames where needle doesn't really have any targets and just sits there in your hand until g2 where it gets boarded out.

undone

06-06-2008, 01:26 PM

raharu

06-06-2008, 01:50 PM

Other then ichorid (which you name Cep colluseam) Where would they ever be dead? I could not find a deck they would be against. And if they were Predict deals with ones on top of my deck nicely. (+1 artifact for goyf)
There are plenty of matches where is does little or nothing. Agro in general. Suicide Black/ Eva Green (doubly true in the variants that don't run Wasteland/ the LD package). Deadguy Ale. Prision and Chalice Stompy in general. There are matches where it's plenty dead.

Shugyosha

06-06-2008, 04:10 PM

Where would they ever be dead?

You find targets in almost all decks and I don't question that. its just that you may run cards in the two slots that are much better in certain metas.

In an aggro meta I would instantly cut the Needles for the fourth Swords and maybe a second Threads for example.

linux-ll-

06-06-2008, 05:04 PM

You find targets in almost all decks and I don't question that. its just that you may run cards in the two slots that are much better in certain metas.

In an aggro meta I would instantly cut the Needles for the fourth Swords and maybe a second Threads for example.

Is Swords to Plowshares not card which you want to have all the time?
Can´t understand why you play only 3 main...

raharu

06-06-2008, 06:30 PM

Is Swords to Plowshares not card which you want to have all the time?
Can´t understand why you play only 3 main...
Quoted for truth.

Also, yes, most decks have targets for needle (fetchnalds, occasionally EE/ whathave you), but there are decks where said targets are uminportant/ nonexistant/ just bad targets where Needle can be a waste of MD slot.

Shugyosha

06-06-2008, 06:43 PM

Is Swords to Plowshares not card which you want to have all the time?
Can´t understand why you play only 3 main...

I've replaced one for a Threads to diversify my removal and - please don't laugh - to have a cmc 3 slot for CB main and have one more when Grips are boarded.
It works perfectly for me but I'm occasionally cutting something (Predict or Needle) to play the 4th Swords.

Currently I'm thinking about:
-1 Counterbalance
-1 Needle
+1 Swords
+1 Enlightened Tutor (for Threads, Top, CB, Hoofprints, Needle, putting something on top for CB and stuff in the board. Most likely Shackles and maybe a Crypt)

I also tested Oblivion Ring in the Needle slot as additional removal after I saw it in your list but its too sluggish for me (see reasons above), although I really love its flexibility. Have you considered playing Vedalken Shackles in the Ring slots in your Big Thresh list?

raharu

06-06-2008, 07:52 PM

I've replaced one for a Threads to diversify my removal and - please don't laugh - to have a cmc 3 slot for CB main and have one more when Grips are boarded.
It works perfectly for me but I'm occasionally cutting something (Predict or Needle) to play the 4th Swords.

Currently I'm thinking about:
-1 Counterbalance
-1 Needle
+1 Swords
+1 Enlightened Tutor (for Threads, Top, CB, Hoofprints, Needle, putting something on top for CB and stuff in the board. Most likely Shackles and maybe a Crypt)

I also tested Oblivion Ring in the Needle slot as additional removal after I saw it in your list but its too sluggish for me (see reasons above), although I really love its flexibility. Have you considered playing Vedalken Shackles in the Ring slots in your Big Thresh list?
How is Threads of Disloyalt fast enough but Oblivion Ring isn't? Also, replacing Card advantage (Predict) with card disadvantage (Enlightened Tutor) doesn't sound like it's going to help with your lategame.

thefreakaccident

06-07-2008, 02:15 AM

Enlightened tutor isn't for this deck... however:

@ Raharu- it can serve as virtual card advantage as you could search for a card that can net you advantage (top/ee/needle/CB)... not to mention, it can tutor for a wincon if you have none.

Not saying it is good here, just saying it isn't card disadvantage.

Adan

06-07-2008, 04:10 AM

I've replaced one for a Threads to diversify my removal and - please don't laugh - to have a cmc 3 slot for CB main and have one more when Grips are boarded.

The idea isn't bad, Baseruption did the same (3 StoP, 1 Ghastly Demise, 2 Shackles, Threads (SB) and Vindicate (SB)) to avoid being hit too bad by Meddling Mage set on removal. That was also the strength of HanniFish in the past: Meddling Mage onto StoP and then Jotun Grunt afterwards were always GG against UGW Thresh.

It works perfectly for me but I'm occasionally cutting something (Predict or Needle) to play the 4th Swords.

Currently I'm thinking about:
-1 Counterbalance
-1 Needle
+1 Swords
+1 Enlightened Tutor (for Threads, Top, CB, Hoofprints, Needle, putting something on top for CB and stuff in the board. Most likely Shackles and maybe a Crypt)

Yes, I consider Swords to Plowshares to be a 4of-autoinclude since they are the most efficient removal available in the format. But don't play Enlightened Tutor, you don't want to play a card that generates Carddisadvantage in Threshold.

I also tested Oblivion Ring in the Needle slot as additional removal after I saw it in your list but its too sluggish for me (see reasons above), although I really love its flexibility. Have you considered playing Vedalken Shackles in the Ring slots in your Big Thresh list?

Oblivion Ring is indeed a versatile card, handling things like Counterbalance, Humility, Moat, Solitary Confinement, Crucible of Worlds, Vedalken Shackles and whatsoever.

I have tested Shackles myself in my/Clemens' build and dismissed it into the Sideboard afterwards since it's manaintensive. It's a very good card, but in average, you won't be able to use the SDT-CBalance-Engine for 1 Turn which might be crucial in some situations. And Shackles are rather a anti-aggro cardchoice only, but not as versatile as Needle or Oblivion Ring.

Valdez

06-07-2008, 04:21 AM

Iserlohn and Dülmen which are both still pretty random though they have established Legacy since 2 years now. And Dülmen is always publishing only the Top3 lists because they still have the stupid logic of that "Bronze-Silver-Gold"-circle.
In the last 3 years, almost every Tourney in BeNeLux & Germany with more than 50 participants had a "random" meta.

Iserlohn has allways been "UXx Aggro-Control-Country", the meta ist quite stable at the moment,
theres allways some Grow [10-20%] + the "Hype-deck of the month"[15-25%], these Hypes were Nought, Loam, BXx Disruption, Enchantress & Landstill in the last few Month...

Then why should we copy your list if it sucks in the earlygame because it's not able to apply pressure?
Cuz he doesn't intent to aply some early pressure.
Mungos are the waekest card of the deck in all mus except for MUC and non Chalice, non Loam Aggo, if you are playing with Balace.
So cutting Mungos is the next logical step, if theres no MUC/VG/RG Beats in your meta, this results in a TEC/Baseruption like list.
[Yes, i've mentiond Baseruption, this means you can start your ayb fanboy babbling now.]

Shugyosha

06-07-2008, 07:29 AM

Regarding Enlightened Tutor: Yes, I know perfectly well that it is carddisadvantage unless you use it in conjunction with CB but there are two reasons:

1. It is only played as a one of replacing Needle. When in danger of losing neither a topdecked Needle nor a topdecked Tutor would help you (well there are exceptions as always like Belcher). If you are not under pressure a Tutor will be better than a Needle most of the time.

2. It can fetch you the missing piece in every match:
Removal: Threads and Shackles when boarded
Control: Balance or Top whatever is missing
Creatures: Hoofprints. Won't get you out of trouble quickly, its a long term plan.
Hate: Needle and boarded Crypt or Dueling Grounds against Goblins

Usually I'm against Tutor myself but the deck is build with so many targets in it that I have to try it.

undone

06-07-2008, 07:08 PM

How is Threads of Disloyalt fast enough but Oblivion Ring isn't? Also, replacing Card advantage (Predict) with card disadvantage (Enlightened Tutor) doesn't sound like it's going to help with your lategame.

When Threads gets resolved the board significantly shifts. For example if a goose is on the table and a goyf is there, you steal goyf. you now removed thier goyf and casted your own for 1UU or Remove target tarmogoyf, goose hits you for 3.

Threads is a 3 mana 2 for 1. It removes a creature and casts one. Ring is a 3 mana 1 for 1.

linux-ll-

06-08-2008, 04:23 AM

Right but Oblivion Ring handles nearly everything.
In my opinion it´s almost impossible to win against Humility or Counterbalance+Sensei and thats the fact why I prefer to play Oblivion Ring.

Omega

06-08-2008, 11:48 AM

So we have Threads of disloyalty and Oblivion ring.
-Both cards cost 3 mana, but threads cost 2 blue, which shouldnt be a problem normally
-Oblivion can hit any non land permanent. Threads can only hit CC 2 or less creature.
-Threads gives you "cards advantage". Oblivion is just a removal. Threads does give card advantage bercause
a) you remove a creature an opponent controls
b) you gain a creature.

I am not sure which one is better though. I prefer Oblivion's versatility. But threads is not to be underestimated

Robert

undone

06-08-2008, 01:27 PM

The biggest problem I have with Obv ring is that deed REMOVES your removal. If you need to remove a spesific card or some such splash for vendicate (almost strictly better) Its also a non perminant.

Basicaly its a bad vendicate, and vendicate isnt ran in UGWB thresh. Threads is ran mostly as a mirror hoser.

Also in all honesty There really should be some CA other then just predict/CB, personaly I LOVE to repeal my top in responce to a draw, you draw 2 cards (costs 3 mana but its still utility) And its a way to get rid of trouble cards like humility for a turn (or if you can counter it)

linux-ll-

06-08-2008, 01:42 PM

I think you can´t say which card is better because it´s a meta question.
Will there be a lot of Landstill, Loam, Staxx play Oblivion Ring. Otherwise Threads !

Shugyosha

06-08-2008, 02:08 PM

Also in all honesty There really should be some CA other then just predict/CB, personaly I LOVE to repeal my top in responce to a draw, you draw 2 cards (costs 3 mana but its still utility) And its a way to get rid of trouble cards like humility for a turn (or if you can counter it)

Yes Repeal is also my answer to things like Humility but I would never use it to bounce my top unless I absolutely need an additional card or loose. Although I Grip my Top in response to the switch trigger occasionally to pump Goyf (but only to win 1 turn earlier).
Repeal should always be played with great care and consideration and not wasted just to cantrip unless it is really necessary.

Joon

06-10-2008, 01:19 PM

Yesterday I had a weird idea after I saw a NQGw StifleWaste List.
What if we could make a NQGw pseudo-tempo NQG feat. StifleWaste?

A rough draft

4 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
4 Wasteland
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Meddling Mage

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Spell Snare

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Rushing River

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

SB:

A Mix of Blue Elemental Blast, Wheel of Sun and Moon, Armageddon, Gaddock Teeg and Grip/EE.

I know that Swords don't seem to fit into this perfectly, but it removes EVERYTHING. And stops Recursion in form of Genesis, Stronghold...
Meddling Mage main is an interesting option imo. As we don't play Smother/Balance/Dreadnaught we can set Mage on that. In other Matchups like Aggro Loam or Landstill you will nearly always find a target (Loam/Wish/Vore/Crusher/Dreams or Wrath/Humility/Moat/EE/Crucible/Decree/...). I like him a lot. Maybe he could get cut from the mainboard for something like 2 Werebears and 2 Armageddons so that you can drop one to two Critters, force Armageddon through and win, especially good against Control. Or something like that.
What do you think? Are black and red just superior to the Whitesplash in non-Balanced NQG?

Adan

06-10-2008, 04:16 PM

Are black and red just superior to the Whitesplash in non-Balanced NQG?

Yes, since the White Splash doesn't support the tempo-ish concept. Black has got Confidant and Extirpate (maybe Thoughtseize) and Red has got Burn for reach (not to mention that Fire//Ice can be insanely good if you play it well).

spiderfreak

06-11-2008, 12:21 PM

Hi im new to playing whtie threshold. Im playing this, plz let me know what you think.

4 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Savannah
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Mystic Enforcer

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Oblivion Ring

3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Predict

4 Counterbalance
3 Daze
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

Sideboard:
1 Gaea's Blessing
2 Eternal Witness
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Stifle
4 Hydroblast
3 Krosan Grip

undone

06-11-2008, 01:48 PM

Your a little permanant heavy.

I would drop 1-2 O rings for a ponder and maby a daze. But looks good

Drop witness from the board. Its just... BAD....(in here)

some more EE in the board so you dont punt the combo MU. (despite the mental disposition you always beat combo you really, REALLY dont.... Ichorid, TES, and ironicaly enough breakfast post board are about even or awful for you.) EE, Crypt, and needle are good there.

Jaiminho

06-11-2008, 04:17 PM

I feel playing less than 4 Daze and 4 Ponder is just wrong. Also, 19 lands? Why that many?

MeddlingMage001

06-11-2008, 04:44 PM

I would suggest cutting the savannah and a predict for a ponder and a daze... 19 lands are too much and ponder is much better in the early game than predict.

spiderfreak

06-12-2008, 11:12 AM

oh wow sorry

Windswept Heath = 3 not 4
Flooded Strand = 3 not 4

Internet Hate Machine

06-13-2008, 11:30 PM

I've been building on my threshold list for a while now and Im getting ready to head into my first relatively competative tourney scene. What I've come up with is a mainly UGw list with black and red splashes for sideboard options, so this is the list I'm planning on taking with me.

Main:

4x Tarmogoyf
4x Nimble Mongoose
1x Mystic Enforcer
1x Hoofprints of the Stag

4x Force of Will
4x Spell Snare
3x Daze
3x Counterbalance

4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Oblivion Ring

4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
3x SDT
2x Predict

4x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
2x Tropical Island
2x Tundra
2x City of Brass
1x Underground Sea
1x Volcanic Island
1x Island

While money is a bit of an issue since I've blown the last money I will have for a while on this list, my main question is with the side board. I'm heading to a mostly unknown meta, but not a large one. I am fairly certain I can expect ichorid and white stax, and neither are an easy MU for the deck. So heres what Im thinking...

4x Pyroclasm
4x Extirpate
4x Serenity
3x Blue Elemental Blast

My main questions are Kgrip or serenity? Serenity is wonderful hate against stax and I know it will be useful, but grip is so much more versatile and would improve the mirror which I am reasonably sure I can expect. Also, is the ichorid MU winnable enough with 4x Extirpate or is the card even worth boarding? Should I just forget Ichorid all together?

Ive considered a build like this:

4x Pyroclasm
4x Extirpate
3x serenity
3x Kgrip
1x cbalance

The fourth counterbalance can help in MUs that revolve around CB top, such as the mirror where it is insanely strong, but ultimately I'm not altogether sure it's worth boarding. Also the loss of BEB can hurt but I'm not really expecting any dragon stompy. Is it too much artichantment hate with the grips and serenitys?

As for the main, I have been considering using vindicate over the oblivion rings, but Im not sure if its viable with only three non-fetch black sources in the deck.

raharu

06-14-2008, 12:01 AM

Errr, why not play the 4th Counterbalance in the main? From that list I'm thinking of going -1 Snare for the 4th CB and perhaps find some room for the 3rd Predict, although I can't think of what goes out.

EDIT: As much as I like Vindicates, they're a little bit outside of our budget (I've been watching some for Bunnies, but they're just retarded :frown:)

Internet Hate Machine

06-14-2008, 12:08 AM

Errr, why not play the 4th Counterbalance in the main? From that list I'm thinking of going -1 Snare for the 4th CB and perhaps find some room for the 3rd Predict, although I can't think of what goes out.

Well, I have really liked it with three. I still generally see more than one CB in the game and I want to have as few dead cards as possible in the borderline MUs. Enchantress will be there too keep in mind and as far as my testing has been counterbalance is "UU: Do nothing" against that deck, and when it actually is hurting him he tends to remove it via O-ring. Snare has been, by contrast, an amazing 4x. It helps keep down the permanent count so I get consistant threshold and acually nabs alot of problem spells in MUs where you dont want to be relying on CB (See enchantress). Predict as a two of has been fine, there are a few matches where I dont like seeing it until the mid game and some where I really dont get to cast it at all.

EDIT: No they aren't, I can afford two on top of everything else we need, I'm on top of the budget issues dont worry there.

Jaiminho

06-14-2008, 12:27 AM

Enchantress will be there too keep in mind and as far as my testing has been counterbalance is "UU: Do nothing" against that deck, and when it actually is hurting him he tends to remove it via O-ring.

Post SB, you will have enough 3cc cards to support CB, in case you have grips in the sideboard. It should be enough to stop some annoying things, so don't just go countering his ass to see a Replenish being played when you have nothing to stop it. I'd also recommend looking at Trygon Predator.

raharu

06-15-2008, 01:30 AM

On a tangent, has anyone considered Meditate for the draw spell slot? Threshold can gum up the red zone effectively enough to stop most creature-based threats, every last counterspell in the deck is free, and the removal is all one mana (as the format mandates), so it would seem that Meditate would be incredibly effetive in helping Threshold in both long wars of attrition and would assist in keeping the hand full durring the midgame. Has anyone else considered it? What are the arguments against it?

Internet Hate Machine

06-15-2008, 01:45 AM

What are the arguments against it?

Skipping a turn is really, really bad?

Jak

06-15-2008, 01:46 AM

Try Ancestral Visions if you want a draw spell.

chokin

06-15-2008, 02:00 AM

Skipping a turn is horrible. And it gives them an extra opportunity to attack. Plus it costs 3, leaving little mana for STP and Spell Snare.

Too little room to abuse or even use it.

Edit: Fact or Fiction was played in the 5c build. Maybe use that. Yeah, costs 4, but it doesn't give the opponent a free turn. It still makes STP/Snare practically unplayable on the same turn though.

undone

06-15-2008, 09:59 AM

Accumulated knowlage and predict together? Decent draw but takes up slots.

Citrus-God

06-15-2008, 12:54 PM

Accumulated knowlage and predict together? Decent draw but takes up slots.

That happened in one of the older lists.... It made opening hands bad and playing them together was rather clunky. Seriously, just play with Predicts and side in Fact or Fictions from the board.

Internet Hate Machine

06-17-2008, 04:40 AM

That happened in one of the older lists.... It made opening hands bad and playing them together was rather clunky. Seriously, just play with Predicts and side in Fact or Fictions from the board.

The main question on my mind is, what does FoF come in against that it would be a better choice than having another card in that slot? Boarding in draw seems...odd, at least to me.

Citrus-God

06-17-2008, 04:45 AM

The main question on my mind is, what does FoF come in against that it would be a better choice than having another card in that slot? Boarding in draw seems...odd, at least to me.

Fact or Fiction can come in against control decks, Threshold, Fish, The Rock, Survival, and other match-ups as well.

Personally, I find Fact or Fiction to be better than Armageddon. Then again, I really did like Armageddon against Survival in testing.

Adan

06-17-2008, 07:39 AM

Though I played Fact or Fiction myself by netdecking the Hatfield's list without thinking about it, I found it rather clunky after all.

ObFreeley told me that they included Fact or Fiction against Landstill. I guess because it's a 4-mana-card which can generate CA. The CC4 slot is - against UWb Landstill - quite important.

That should have been the only reason, ObFreeley is also suggesting to run a 2nd Portent instead of Fact or Fiction. This also sounds more plausible, having 10 "Dig-3"-cantrips will always help you to maintain a your manabase.

The only thing I don't like about the 5color Thresh is that it has got no other way to generate CA except with Counterbalance.

5color Threshold has got the "best-of" selection of the spells of each color you definitley want to play:

Black: Thoughtseize, Sb Extirpate(/Jailer?)

White: StoPs and Mystic Enforcer

Red: SB Pyroclasm, Blasts, Ancient Grudge

But actually you can run any sideboard configuration you want, you will always have cards that help you in a specific meta.

hypeiv

06-18-2008, 11:11 AM

I threw together a UGw countertop deck together last night with the cards I had and playtested it a little against some of my aggro decks. My list looked like this:

2 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath (I don't own polluted delta :frown: )

2 Mystic Enforcer
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear (don't own goyf :frown: )

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Daze
4 Predict
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top

observations:

Goyf is obviously better than werebear (i'm sure everyone knew that a year ago)... I had to run more predicts than I should to force threshold sooner in many cases were I could have easily had 3/4 Goyf with only 3 cards in my yard. And I don't think I ever used the bears tap for mana ability.

O-ring is nice for 3cc countertop... but that might have just been the match up dependent.

I often found myself with a bunch of useless daze's in my hand late game which is why i took one out and put an extra predict in... but late game you should have countertop going.

I am very impressed with how consistent this deck is and might have to look into buying some goyfs once they rotate out of type 2 in october.

undone

06-18-2008, 12:53 PM

hypeiv

06-19-2008, 02:44 PM

Cut an O ring for a daze (4 is needed) and heath is better then delta it gets the basic forest and it gets tundra and gets trop.

If you want amazing 3 drops I would do something I did in all versions of thresh im playing, drop 1, 1 drop removal for a threads of disloyalty, it gets FoW fodder, steals dreadnaught steals goyf steals bob, exct

I cut an O-ring for a daze and glad I did since I am starting to get the flow of the deck a bit better today. Especially since I am not running goyf, getting threshold is very very important so even if the daze is pointless (they can just pay the mana) it helps me get thresh... and I can always pitch it to a FoW.

Also O-ring has been a dead card most of the time only useful to win a turn earlier by taking out one of their blockers. I think I am going to replace them with 2x echoing truths.... having 2x of a 3cc spell isn't enough to reliably use it for counterbalance.

Ironstickman

06-19-2008, 03:08 PM

In my experience O-ring has been a very versatile card (as a 2-of)
I wouldn't cut it for a bouncer in a non tempo thresh build like UGw
(buy the goyf, it is critical for these decks)

Elf_Ascetic

06-20-2008, 06:01 AM

Adan

06-20-2008, 06:43 AM

4 Daze is very bad in a controlish ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh list with 2 basics that aren't Islands.

That's not true, 4 Dazes are essential. You should play Basiclands depending on you meta, though. I never really needed them.
But like in Clemens manabase with 10 fetch (4 Stand, 4 Heath, 2 Delta), supporting Daze was never a big problem.

The bigger reason not to play non-Island basiclands is that they suck when they are kept in opening hands. That's why I always ran 8 Detch, 8 Dual, 1 Island.

Run 4 Counterbalance, you won't find yourself ever hating the second one in your hand. You can brainstorm it away, Predict it away, pitch to Fow, or have a spare one backup.

I agree here. But I will go down to 3 Counterbalances again since I need space for Oblivion Ring which I want to test.
Counterbalance is also a very situational card, that's why I'm not really happy about being fixiated on Counterbalance.

Omega

06-20-2008, 12:07 PM

you can also play 61 cards.deck :)

but i think 3-3 daze/CB is a good split, but 3/4 is better. You want CB to be on the table as fast as possible.

Robert

hypeiv

06-20-2008, 12:22 PM

4 Daze is very bad in a controlish ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh list with 2 basics that aren't Islands.

You shouldn't play Strands/Delta and a single Forest.

Run 4 Counterbalance, you won't find yourself ever hating the second one in your hand. You can brainstorm it away, Predict it away, pitch to Fow, or have a spare one backup.

4 Goyf is essential. Don´t try to play threshold without it, unless your meta is retarted.

I obviously understand that non goyf is sub-optimal... I don't need people to hammer that point home.

Good thoughts on the basics.. I was originally thinking about wastelands and running a set of basics in a combination that would allow me to cast all my spells. While I have never had a problem not being able to cast daze I found out in testing the other day I more than welcome wasteland since the deck only needs 2 lands to run and wasteland helps my thresh. Blood moon could still be a problem...

I think I might do -1 forest +1 heath

alternatively I might end up replacing all 4 basics with a set of underground sea's or volcanic island to give me a 4th color in the sideboard if needed.

raharu

06-20-2008, 10:25 PM

I obviously understand that non goyf is sub-optimal... I don't need people to hammer that point home.

Good thoughts on the basics.. I was originally thinking about wastelands and running a set of basics in a combination that would allow me to cast all my spells. While I have never had a problem not being able to cast daze I found out in testing the other day I more than welcome wasteland since the deck only needs 2 lands to run and wasteland helps my thresh. Blood moon could still be a problem...

I think I might do -1 forest +1 heath

alternatively I might end up replacing all 4 basics with a set of underground sea's or volcanic island to give me a 4th color in the sideboard if needed.
Well, I've never seen anyone complain about the 4 basic setup in lists packing Enforcer (2 Island, 1 Plains, 1 Forest). Being able to play Magic against decks that run relevant amounts of non-basic hate (Dragon Stompy, Staxx, AgroLoam, Deadguy Ale) is always nice as well.

Jaiminho

06-20-2008, 11:00 PM

While I have never had a problem not being able to cast daze (...)

It is always a problem if you can't daze the opponent's turn 1 on the draw. Wasting Force of Will on Dazeable things is the worst thing ever to do.

(...) I found out in testing the other day I more than welcome wasteland since the deck only needs 2 lands to run and wasteland helps my thresh. Blood moon could still be a problem...

I think I might do -1 forest +1 heath

Wastelands help with threshold as much as Fetchlands do. They are both Stifleable and Wasteland doesn't do as much for your gameplan as basically any choose-your-color land you want, including basics. If you spend a early land drop playing and cracking a Wasteland, you will be getting yourself into a more Dazeable situation, you won't be able to enjoy extra mana for checking you top 3 and you may not have the mana for Counterbalance.

If you want to play tempo, play a deck focused on playing tempo, not this.

Internet Hate Machine

06-21-2008, 02:44 AM

Ive been toying around with my 5c ish list (posted a page back) on MWS and have encountered some problems.

For reference, heres the list as it is now -

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [5E] City of Brass
2 [R] Tundra
2 [B] Tropical Island
1 [B] Underground Sea
1 [B] Volcanic Island
1 [IA] Island (2)

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
2 [OD] Mystic Enforcer

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [NE] Daze
3 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [5E] Brainstorm
1 [5E] Portent
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [U] Swords to Plowshares
2 [LRW] Oblivion Ring

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [9E] Pyroclasm
SB: 3 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [DIS] Trygon Predator

The main problems I encountered were oddly enough with consistancy. Granted this may be somewhat attributed to the terrible shuffling on MWS but it felt like it was enough to merit some concern.

I often had to mull because of hands with 1 land and no cantrips or no lands at all, which is a problem I have never encountered playing threshold in real life, also, I was only able to find a force of will around 25% of the time, and that's being generous. Has anyone else had similar problems with threshold on MWS, or do I just have the worst luck in the world?

Some comments ~ After trying 17 lands, it feels like 18 are needed for 5c manabase stability, though I am convinced that 3 Cities are better than four (Granted I am not playing thoughseize.) Oblivion ring is rather useful, as it helps you not randomly lose to Moats or Humility in control, though vindicate seems like it would be more solid in accomplishing the same thing. Mystic enforcer is definately better than hoofprints here, as it can come in and save you in a good many MUs. Serenity seemed rather weak in most MUs where it was worth boarding, so its board slots have been taken by predators for now.

ParkerLewis

06-21-2008, 03:44 AM

Some comments ~ After trying 17 lands, it feels like 18 are needed for 5c manabase stability, though I am convinced that 3 Cities are better than four (Granted I am not playing thoughseize.)

I'm not an UGb/5c player, but aren't Thoughtseize and Dark Confidant the main incentive to splash/play black ? I mean, I agree you only have so much slots, but still, you're splashing two colors only for Clasm and Extirpate. Clasm is understandable, it's been done before and can be useful in the appropriate meta. But Extirpate... doesn't seem to justify splashing black by itself.

Plus, it wreaks havoc on your manabase. Only one basic, City of Brass... True, I guess you wouldn't play such a list in a meta where you expect some manabase hate, but it really seems very vulnerable.

I guess my point would be, either get rid of black and rebuild a safer, more consistent manabase with 4 colors, or try to find some slots for black goodness main. I guess the slots that could be tinkered with are the 1x Portent and especially the four Spell Snare. Thresh always wants to use all of its (very few) mana on its own turn (hence the free counters), and spell snare forces you to keep U open if you want to be able to use it (and you d'ont even know if you'll end up using it or if you just wasted the opportunity to play somehting). Thoughtseize seems the perfect replacement : at least you're sure to remove their main threat.

Maybe you could try removing the 3x City for +1 Bloodstained Mire (the red-black fetch ?), +1 Underground Sea, +1 Basic (probably a Forest).

On the mull issues... IIRC, you have ~40 % chance of having at least one of a 4-ouf in your starting 7 (that's for the force of will issue). So i guess it was bad luck on this part. With a 8 or 9-of (cantrips), the probability of having at least one is 65-70 %... so not having one is one out of three - it's not that uncommon.

Internet Hate Machine

06-21-2008, 04:00 AM

I'm not an UGb/5c player, but aren't Thoughtseize and Dark Confidant the main incentive to splash/play black ? I mean, I agree you only have so much slots, but still, you're splashing two colors only for Clasm and Extirpate. Clasm is understandable, it's been done before and can be useful in the appropriate meta. But Extirpate... doesn't seem to justify splashing black by itself.

Actually, so far in testing extirpate has been worth its weight in gold. It comes in alot more than you would think and is generally not disapointing, so its really worth the one land to splash for it, also in the tournaments I am testing for I expect to see some dredge and I dont want to punt the match.

Plus, it wreaks havoc on your manabase. Only one basic, City of Brass... True, I guess you wouldn't play such a list in a meta where you expect some manabase hate, but it really seems very vulnerable.

I've been able to play around wasteland to a reasonable degree, provided I dont get triple wasted early on or something devastating like that, so its not as vulnerable as even I expected it to be (Extirpate from the side can also help here). Moon effects, on the other hand, are a killing, hence the BEBs in the side and singleton basic island.

I guess my point would be, either get rid of black and rebuild a safer, more consistent manabase with 4 colors, or try to find some slots for black goodness main. I guess the slots that could be tinkered with are the 1x Portent and especially the four Spell Snare. Thresh always wants to use all of its (very few) mana on its own turn (hence the free counters), and spell snare forces you to keep U open if you want to be able to use it (and you d'ont even know if you'll end up using it or if you just wasted the opportunity to play somehting). Thoughtseize seems the perfect replacement : at least you're sure to remove their main threat.

Only reason Im not currently playing 'seize is funding. I was testing the deck for an upcoming tournament, and Ill be picking up thoughtseizes as soon as I can. Also, vindicate may be used, but Im not sure of my stance on that yet.

On the mull issues... IIRC, you have ~40 % chance of having at least one of a 4-ouf in your starting 7 (that's for the force of will issue). So i guess it was bad luck on this part. With a 8 or 9-of (cantrips), the probability of having at least one is 65-70 %... so not having one is one out of three - it's not that uncommon.

Well, I mean I went whole games without seeing a force, some matches even. Alot of the time I would look through my deck and find them all clumped up near the bottom, so I think MWS may be partly to blame, combined with my naturally disapointing luck I suppose. My main issue was that the deck runs alot less consistantly than it does in real-world playing, which I found odd.

Adan

06-21-2008, 05:30 AM

Actually, so far in testing extirpate has been worth its weight in gold. It comes in alot more than you would think and is generally not disapointing, so its really worth the one land to splash for it, also in the tournaments I am testing for I expect to see some dredge and I dont want to punt the match.

Why don't you simply play the Hatfield's 5color Thresh or the standard UGW Threshold? You have the 5color Manabase, but your maindeck is still UGW. And you are only playing that manabase für SB Extirpate and SB Pyroclasm.

In my opinion, this can't ever justify the constellation of the manabase.

The Ichorid matchup won't become better just because of 3 Extirpates. if you are really afraid of Ichorid, try the UGB build. It has also got access to Engineered plagues if you are really afraid of Goblins. The only reason why I sometimes don't dare to play it is the randomness of our meta (try to Smother a Frogmite/Myr Enforcer or Dragonstompy creatures).

Goblins can also be won easily, you just have to play aggressive. Clemens and I are simply playing 6 BEBs, which gives you 10 removalspells against Goblins. It works perfectly.

Against Ichorid, you have at least Jotun Grunt, Wheel of Sun and Moon and Dueling Grounds as viable SB options (and Tormod's Crypt of course).

thefreakaccident

06-21-2008, 05:43 AM

You can also run ghostly prison/propaganda, as I have found it basically shuts down ichorid (they attack with a 3/1 each turn that a goyf can eat up)... it is also pretty good in the goblins MU (they attack with 1-2 creatures, if they do not play threats on their turn)...

Add the fact that it is primarily a stall tactic (but isn't every sideboard card against goblins/ichorid just a stall tactic?)...

Anyways, they're actually quite good, you guys should try them (oh yeah, and they aren't dead against non0tribal agro, like plague is)...

Internet Hate Machine

06-21-2008, 05:44 AM

Why don't you simply play the Hatfield's 5color Thresh or the standard UGW Threshold? You have the 5color Manabase, but your maindeck is still UGW. And you are only playing that manabase für SB Extirpate and SB Pyroclasm.

In my opinion, this can't ever justify the constellation of the manabase.

The Ichorid matchup won't become better just because of 3 Extirpates. if you are really afraid of Ichorid, try the UGB build. It has also got access to Engineered plagues if you are really afraid of Goblins. The only reason why I sometimes don't dare to play it is the randomness of our meta (try to Smother a Frogmite/Myr Enforcer or Dragonstompy creatures).

Goblins can also be won easily, you just have to play aggressive. Clemens and I are simply playing 6 BEBs, which gives you 10 removalspells against Goblins. It works perfectly.

Against Ichorid, you have at least Jotun Grunt, Wheel of Sun and Moon and Dueling Grounds as viable SB options (and Tormod's Crypt of course).

Well, the deck is going to go through alot of changes, and I would be playing a close to netdecked build of 5c if I hadn't run out of money short of thoughtseize. Those things are damned expensive. I am expecting a pretty random metagame, so the main idea was to prepare for as many things as possible, hence I went with the 5c for the best sideboard options. The board/MD will change after some metagaming though, I am kind of stuck with one place to play tournaments at in my area, and they arent big ones. I found snare to be next to useless against randomness, and on mws I always seem to draw them more than I need. What do you think would be a reasonable stand in for the thoughtseize slots until our team can pick up a set?

Adan

06-21-2008, 05:56 AM

Well, the deck is going to go through alot of changes, and I would be playing a close to netdecked build of 5c if I hadn't run out of money short of thoughtseize. Those things are damned expensive. I am expecting a pretty random metagame, so the main idea was to prepare for as many things as possible, hence I went with the 5c for the best sideboard options. The board/MD will change after some metagaming though, I am kind of stuck with one place to play tournaments at in my area, and they arent big ones. I found snare to be next to useless against randomness, and on mws I always seem to draw them more than I need. What do you think would be a reasonable stand in for the thoughtseize slots until our team can pick up a set?

I would not play 5colored if I wouldn't have cacess to Thoughtseizes. Thoughtseize were one of two reasons to splash Black. The other reason would be Dark Confidant, but he pretty much flops in combination with Cities.

Play the usual UGW with Needles, they are almost as versatile as Thoughtseize and very good against Landstill which gains more and more popularity.

I'm still not sure about Oblivion Ring, though.

raharu

06-22-2008, 01:31 AM

I would not play 5colored if I wouldn't have cacess to Thoughtseizes. Thoughtseize were one of two reasons to splash Black. The other reason would be Dark Confidant, but he pretty much flops in combination with Cities.

Play the usual UGW with Needles, they are almost as versatile as Thoughtseize and very good against Landstill which gains more and more popularity.

I'm still not sure about Oblivion Ring, though.
Rings are handy for not dying to Moat control/ random arts and enchantments. I argee abou the Needles though, they're wonderful and don't afraid of most things.

hypeiv

06-23-2008, 01:01 AM

It is always a problem if you can't daze the opponent's turn 1 on the draw. Wasting Force of Will on Dazeable things is the worst thing ever to do.

Wastelands help with threshold as much as Fetchlands do. They are both Stifleable and Wasteland doesn't do as much for your gameplan as basically any choose-your-color land you want, including basics. If you spend a early land drop playing and cracking a Wasteland, you will be getting yourself into a more Dazeable situation, you won't be able to enjoy extra mana for checking you top 3 and you may not have the mana for Counterbalance.

If you want to play tempo, play a deck focused on playing tempo, not this.

I wasn't clear in the post... I meant to say I was running basics to get around my opp running wastelands... but what I found out in playtesting was if my opp uses a wasteland on me I don't really mind b/c it speeds up threshold and I can do 90% of my deck with two lands... I never planned on running wastelands in thresh

PowrDragn

06-27-2008, 01:06 AM

Where can this Hatfield list be found? Also, where are the various 5c variants posted?

I did a search and trolled around a bit and couldn't find a list for either.

Wargoos

06-27-2008, 05:01 AM

What do you think about an addition of Jace?
Is he too slow or just doesn't support our gameplan?

linux-ll-

06-27-2008, 08:18 AM

If you want to play Jace Beleren you have to cut Nimble Mongoose.
In my opinion Jace it a nice card to generate CA and it´s mostly hard to handle for your opponent.

Wargoos

06-27-2008, 10:32 AM

That would be the List:

creature&planeswalker [10]

1 Jace Beleren
1 Mystic Enforcer
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

instant [19]

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Predict
4 Swords to Plowshares

sorcery [4]

4 Ponder

enchantment [5]

4 Counterbalance
1 Hoofprints of the Stag

artifact [5]

2 Pithing Needle
3 Sensei's Divining Top

land [17]

4 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
2 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
4 Windswept Heath

Sideboard:

3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Trygon Predator
2 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Hydroblast
2 Krosan Grip
2 Armageddon

I think about cutting the Hoofprints for the 2nd Beleren(which have a little synergy together), but will first try this build for it seems pretty solid to me. I added the Needles because Adan recommended them the rest is like standart ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh.

Zach Tartell

06-27-2008, 10:58 AM

Where can this Hatfield list be found? Also, where are the various 5c variants posted?

I did a search and trolled around a bit and couldn't find a list for either.

Alix Hatfield
5 Color Thresh
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei’s Divining Top
3 Daze
1 Portent
1 Fact or Fiction
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Mystic Enforcer
4 City of Brass
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
60 cards
4 Pyroclasm
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Krosan Grip
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Fact or Fiction
15 cards

It's found in the top 8 decklists thread in the Tournament Reports/Announcements forum.

PowrDragn

06-27-2008, 11:45 AM

Shugyosha

06-27-2008, 12:06 PM

I'll trust that the original deckbuilder has a better understanding than I do, but I might feel better replacing the Fact or Fiction and Portent with something else. The red cards seem a bit ...I dunno..."win better"-ish. It can't ever hurt having access to red blast though, I'd imagine.

As far as I remember one of the Hatfields already said that the Fact main didn't perform as expected. I would cut it and the Portent for 2 Predict or 2 Repeal. The current draw package is quite solid so 2 Repeal would be better. They also make your lategame Thoughtseize better sometimes.

Red Blasts are killer. They help to get your key cards through (Balance) or counter your opponent's key spells and occasionally protect/rescue creatures from Control Magic/Threads.

Mental

06-27-2008, 12:09 PM

Thanks for posting this. I honestly looked and couldn't find it.

I like the list. It's similar to something I've been working on. I mostly wanted to have Therapy or Thoughtseize main.

I'll trust that the original deckbuilder has a better understanding than I do, but I might feel better replacing the Fact or Fiction and Portent with something else. The red cards seem a bit ...I dunno..."win better"-ish. It can't ever hurt having access to red blast though, I'd imagine.

FoF is anti landstill tech that lets you match their CA in the late game and counter their 4 drops in the early game. If there's not a lot of Landstill in your meta, you should replace FoF, probably with a 4th Daze.

Omega

06-30-2008, 11:25 AM

I am really excited about the announcement of Canadian Legacy Championship which will be held on August 2 at Montreal.

My big question is : What deck to play. I played most of my legacy "career or life" (call it as you wish) with UGW ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh. I know i am most confortable with this deck. However I rarely keep up to date with the newest changes and all, but i know that most ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh has evolved (black splash, red splash, canadian ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh, etc etc). It is likely I will play a ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh deck for the tournament, but should i dare splashing some color to make my Aggro match better ? (splashing red). I always had some difficulties against aggro. Should i splash black to be even more aggressive/control with dark confidant/thoughtseize?

I know for sure that Aggro/Landstill/ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh will show up in great number. But i do not know how many people will play, since the legacy tournament will take place with a Bloc tournament (t2), and most people play t2 anyway. Probably no combo, or very little.

Any thoughts? Thank you

Robert

Adan

06-30-2008, 11:35 AM

I hope that the next one who can't simply write "Thresh" instead of "ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh" will receive a lifetime-ban. Seriously, wtf?

Well, browse through the forums or sites like germagic.de and take a look at the builds. I guess you can figure out which one to play in your meta by yourself.

Shugyosha

06-30-2008, 12:07 PM

I know for sure that Aggro/Landstill/ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh will show up in great number. But i do not know how many people will play, since the legacy tournament will take place with a Bloc tournament (t2), and most people play t2 anyway. Probably no combo, or very little.

Any thoughts? Thank you

Robert

Against the mirror and Landstill UG Thresh (the original GenCon build with another Sideboard) is the best I think. UGR is very good against aggro and good in the mirror too. But unless you don't know the meta more exactly UGw would be a decent call because you know how to play it (I assume). The Threshold lists nowadays are played very differently from one another.

On a sidenote: If you are not familiar with the Counterbalance/Top engine just don't play it before you tested it (alot). You can always go back and play a "oldskool" list with Meddling Mages etc. instead of a Balance build. Mages can be set on Balance in the mirror.

Sanguine Voyeur

06-30-2008, 12:09 PM

I hope that the next one who can't simply write "Thresh" instead of "ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh" will receive a lifetime-ban. Seriously, wtf?That's used to censor swear words. Even the newer ones (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9726).

ParkerLewis

06-30-2008, 01:10 PM

ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh

Yeah, it'd be great if you could FINALLY be able to spell the deck's name correctly. It's been several weeks that the censorship of the bad spelling has been in place, and you've still not managed to write the name correctly EVEN ONCE IN ALL YOUR POSTS.

Thanks in advance for ensuring readability of your posts from now on.

PowrDragn

07-01-2008, 01:52 AM

I was looking over that 5C Hatfield list and was wondering if it could be modified to something like the following...

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei’s Divining Top
3 Daze

3 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Mystic Enforcer
4 Dark confidant

3 City of Brass
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

60 cards

3 Pyroclasm
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Extirpate/Yixlid Jailer (not sure which is better here)
2 Krosan Grip
2 Trygon Predator
2 Red Elemental Blast

15 cards

My concern with something like this is that Confidant/City of Brass/Thoughtseize produces too much life loss together. I would feel a lot better with an Umezawa's Jitte or two hanging out on the list personally.

Thoughtsieze + Confidant seem to swing games with the advantage you can get off of them. The white cards you get are quite amazing as well though.

Another issue I've noticed is that recently I've won more games by simply getting creatures down and being as over aggressive as I can. People seem to be very aware of Threshold and the lack of permanents that you have. This changes the way you need to play sometimes and I think this build gives me that option.

Granted, I've only played a couple of games (against a poor player), so I have no real idea if this deck is built on solid theory or not.

hypeiv

07-01-2008, 09:36 AM

I have noticed in decks that do a lot of damage up front quickly run out of gas and get locked out vs thresh. I have playtested many games where my life goes down to 6 or 7 instantly then I lock out a win.

Main vs a deck like this you can always plow your own goyf to gain life. If your meta is heavy burn you can think about pariah, warmth or worship in the side board.

PowrDragn

07-01-2008, 11:51 AM

Good call on Warmth. I totally forgot about that card. I was focusing more on Chill. But Warmth/Dragon's Claw is fine I suppose. Warmth would be the preferred option.

I know in the mirror a resolved Confidant is huge if it can sit for about three turns. So, I'm wondering if the CA that's created in this build is great enough to take the risk.

I would like Jitte both both aspects of the card. Life gain would be nice, but realistically it would function as another kill card which this version is a little light on. Not sure where I could fit it in anyway without reducing to cards down to 3's instead of 4's.

Just a thought.

hypeiv

07-01-2008, 12:36 PM

In my limited testing mongoose is usually a house in this deck so I normally like to have 4 of. With 4x ponder 4x brainstorm 4x bob 4x top and 8x fetch land you can safely drop to 3x counterbalance... you will find one

PowrDragn

07-01-2008, 11:15 PM

Yeah, the numbers can be adjusted. I'm just trying to make sure that the idea on the build is sound.

PowrDragn

07-06-2008, 12:28 PM

Well, for a few days now, I've tried this list and it doen't hole up. Confidant + City of Brass + Thoughtseize is just entirely too much damage.

With this build, I've had a hard time beating any type of aggro decks. And anything with burn was almost an autoloss unless I just drew the Green creatures + Swords.

Against slower stuff and combo it seemed fine, but not any better than the older version. There are a few times where Thoughtseize is your savior, but overall, the Confidant and Cities didn't make for a happy time.

I wouldn't mind playing a build with the Thoughtseize still in and just replacing the Confidants with something else.

Interestingly though, I had given some consideration to a creature base that looks like:

4 Goose
4 Goyf
2 Enforcer
2 Werebear
1 Hoofprints

I know it's more permanents that most of us are used to playing, but I'm seeing more and more creature based decks in the format. It might just be localy. But a big Werebear can handle most of the creatures getting played.

And on top of that, something it would be nice to have a couple more bodies to throw in the way in the clutch to sit on StP just a little longer.

raharu

07-06-2008, 12:48 PM

PowrDragn

07-07-2008, 02:58 AM

After reviewing some other decklists and putting a little more of this to thought, I figured I'd go with this list:

Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Daze

Enchantments/Artifacts
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei’s Divining Top
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Threads of Disloyalty
2 Pithing Needle

Creatures/Threats
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Trygon Predator
1 Mystic Enforcer
1 Hoofprints of the Stag

Lands
4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
1 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

60 cards

3 Gaddock Teeg
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Tormod's Crpyt/Wheel of Sun and Moon
3 Krosan Grip
2 Control Magic

15 cards

I'm not sure if I should have Neddles or EE. Many people on here seem to be excited about EE, but I've never found a time that it was good for me. I could just be absolutely terrible at Legacy as well. I just simply didn't find a time where I had the mana/position to make it worth its weight.

I went with a few more basics, because there have been some Wastelands floating around our area. I'm unsure if the land situation is right, but it looks good for now.

I'm also not sure if Gaddock Teeg belongs in the sideboard. And for that matter do you guys think WoSaM or crypt is the right card. I think I'm going with Tormod's Crypt for now. I also went with Control Magic over Vedalken Shackles as it is an immediate answer and seems a little easier to use.

PowrDragn

07-07-2008, 08:54 PM

I'm starting feel like I'm spamming the boards here, so I apologize for that.

However, I seem to be running into tough first games against Goblins. It's monored, but that concerns me, because I would assume that the Rw and Rb goblins are even tougher.

I'm only running about 40/60 against them first game. Is that normal or am I absolutely terrible with this deck? (And yes, the fact that I'm screwing it up is a definitely possibility).

Brushwagg

07-07-2008, 09:05 PM

Goblins is a very tough match-up. They have very good card advantage and can swarm the board. Creature hoards gives White NQG problems. The key to winning the match is keep vial off the board stick Counterbalance and ride Tarmogoyf for the W. Even that plan can lose but it's the best you got without splashing a 4th color.

A SB card you might look into though is Tivadar's Crusade. Especially if you know your going to see Goblins alot in your meta. Other helpful cards are Engineered Explosives, BEB/Hydroblast, and Sphere of Law(it's a little expensive to play).

PowrDragn

07-07-2008, 10:18 PM

I've already got 5 blasts in my board, which was obvious. A couple of times, I even boarded in Gaddock Teeg just to have another body and that also seemed to help.

I've considered dropping a blast or two for a couple of chills and/or Tivadar's Crusade.

I truly wouldn't be surprised if my local meta ends up having goblins and burn. That's the reason I've considered Chill.

I constantly see EE being listed as an answer to several things, but the card just doesn't seem to work out for me. I usually don't have a good number to set it at or I have another card that needs to be cast as an immediate answer and don't want to tie up that 2-3 mana for the EE. So for now, it's not in my deck at all.

kabal

07-07-2008, 11:10 PM

However, I seem to be running into tough first games against Goblins.

Stifle is a good cards against Goblins, run in MB.

Hits Lackey, Ringleader, SGC, Piledriver, Matron, Incinerator, Wasteland.

raharu

07-08-2008, 12:56 AM

Is there any particular reason why Shackles wouldn't strongly skew the Goblins MU in your favor?

PowrDragn

07-08-2008, 01:25 AM

That's a definitely a playable option. Of course it's sideboard only. I don't want that hanging out gumming up draws first game.

Shugyosha

07-08-2008, 03:17 AM

Wrath of God is always a SB option to look into in UGW. Especially if you run Hoofprints instead of Enforcers. It seems to contradict the deck concept but if you play it right it can be amazing and very surprising. The problem, especially in the Goblin matchup is the mana denial.

arsenalpow

07-08-2008, 07:32 AM

Stifle is a good cards against Goblins, run in MB.

Hits Lackey, Ringleader, SGC, Piledriver, Matron, Incinerator, Wasteland.

I don't think you can stifle piledriver, that pro blue thing is cheater sometimes.

Brehn

07-08-2008, 07:34 AM

I don't think you can stifle piledriver, that pro blue thing is cheater sometimes.

You can. The permanent has Pro:Blue, not the ability.

Gman

07-09-2008, 11:33 AM

Hello all, long time reader, shy poster etc.

I've been testing my version of ugw thresh with Vendillion Clique instead of some of the more traditional finishers like Mystic Enforcer or Hoofprints. My list, besides that is pretty standard. The Clique's instant speed plus sizable power can make for a decent clock with evasion.

Some random pros off the top of my head:
-Good versus control, since it's instant speed. You might be able to put your oponent in a position where they have to tap out or use up resources at the end of their turn, while you replenish yours when you get to untap. It may be the case where they will let it resolve because they have a removal spell, but then again they risk losing that spell to the Clique's ability. I should say that they could use top or brainstorm tricks to get around this.

-Another cool trick can mess up their Counterbalance. You play spell, they top in response, you play Clique in response to the Counterbalance trigger, they have a new card on top. Maybe now your spell will resolve?

-More quickly breaks stalemates. If your creatures are sitting there staring at your opponent's, a Clique is quicker to break that stalemate. With Enforcer, usually you have to get to 4 mana, and then have a few resources to protect it like counter magic or extra mana for Top or whatever. Not so with the Clique. I'm not sure if Hoofprints is better in this case, you're probably overall in better shape with a landed Hoofprints but it is of course slower and clunkier.

-Better versus combo. Yep.

-Combat tricks. It can jump in the way of opposing Mongeese, etc.

-Goblins? I think the Clique might be weak versus goblins due to Fanatic but then again it could potentially stave off a Warrens Weirding or something returned to by Wort; not to mention a freshly tutored Ringleader.

-Counterbalance curve. I really don't like O-ring in this deck. This may be the problem solver for the 3 drop spot in the curve.

-Obligitory reference to being pitchable to FoW. Actually this is relevent, because you can't always shuffle away an unneeded Enforcer and it is literally a dead card.

White Threshold is traditional the more controlling build so I think the Clique has a useful and appropriate role here. Try it out and let me know what you think.

freakish777

07-09-2008, 12:05 PM

The key to winning the match is keep vial off the board

I agree with this. Not allowing Vial to get up to 3 (Warchief, Matron) is key. If Vial hits 4, you've typically lost.

stick Counterbalance

I don't agree with this, I typically side Counterbalane out against Goblins, the cards I want them resolving least are Ringleader and Gang-Banger. You really don't have enough cards at 4 and 5 to keep this up. Typically you bring in Hydroblast/Blue Elemental Blast against them, and after that, any additional creatures (Gaddock Teeg's job is to trade with Piledriver/Warchief, Meddling Mage's job, if anyone still runs them, is to trade with Warchief).

and ride Tarmogoyf for the W.

By Tarmogoyf, you mean multiple Goyfs, right? :wink:

Essentially, the only way for you to gain Card Advantage in this match up (allowing you to be the control role) is to force them to chump block, or gang block into Swords/BEB that saves your guy (if it's Goyf, they'd better be tapped out, or Incinerator probably wrecks you), while keeping them from resolving Ringleader and Gang-Banger (easier to do with Force, Daze, and BEB than Counterbalance), and you hit the nail on the head, that none of that is possible without ensuring Vial doesn't stick around (you can afford to take a couple of hits from Driver/Matron/Warchief while you counter stuff until you land blockers if they don't show up early). Winning this way happens more often, I've found.

The only other way to win is to land multiple Goyfs by turn 3/4, while they haven't drawn Lackey or Vial (which isn't extremely likely). This immediately allows you to beat face, forcing them to try and play the control role, which they can't really do without resolving an unanswered Vial as they need a stream of chump blockers. Winning this way is easier (see the episode of the Magic episode where Evan Erwin explains Tarmogoyf Math -> Goyf + Goyf + Goyf = You Win!).

Shugyosha

07-09-2008, 12:31 PM

I wanted to give Clique a try since I first saw it but I thought about running it in UGr since it seems more like a tempo card. In UGw I usually want something that either has long term staying power like Hoofprints or can deal with nearly any threat when it comes down like Enforcer.
But the merits of having a good cmc 3 slot and being capable to deal with your opponents Life from the Loam maindeck is quite good so I guess I really will test it but in UGr or UGrw first.

Adan

07-09-2008, 12:55 PM

-Another cool trick can mess up their Counterbalance. You play spell, they top in response, you play Clique in response to the Counterbalance trigger, they have a new card on top. Maybe now your spell will resolve?

So, you are playing Spell (n) and Vendilion Clique (n+3 Mana) to force through... a Goyf or something like that. That would make at least 4 mana, for which we can simply have Enforcer to beat the opponent down within 2-3 turns.

-More quickly breaks stalemates. If your creatures are sitting there staring at your opponent's, a Clique is quicker to break that stalemate. With Enforcer, usually you have to get to 4 mana, and then have a few resources to protect it like counter magic or extra mana for Top or whatever.

Early stalemates are solved with Swords to Plowshares. And in the mid- or lategame, you have Enforcer. Even though you tap out fpr him, you don't need any additional mana since your countermagic is 4free and you can simply exchange Top with the top-card for StoP-resistancy (When CBalance is out obv.).

-Better versus combo. Yep.

C...Counterbalance? Daze? Force? Clock? SB Meddling Mage? Clique = winmore/overkill Oo

-Combat tricks. It can jump in the way of opposing Mongeese, etc.

Well, in the mirrormatch, Mongeese always trade with each other I guess. And Enforcer and Hoofprints are still more dangerous in the mirrormatch.

But against other decks it might be true.

-Goblins? I think the Clique might be weak versus goblins due to Fanatic but then again it could potentially stave off a Warrens Weirding or something returned to by Wort; not to mention a freshly tutored Ringleader.

But Clique has to be kept back in your hand to do such broken things while your opponent is simply going to bash your head in. As you said, it also dies to Mogg Fanatic very easily, as well as to a Gempalm Incinerator. It also can't block Piledrivers because of it's color.

-Counterbalance curve. I really don't like O-ring in this deck. This may be the problem solver for the 3 drop spot in the curve.

I like Oblivion Ring better, but there are no other CC3 spells that make sense to me to play in the maindeck. Except MAYBE Threads or Shackles, but they act as removal, and therefore O-Ring is still better. Goyfs are growing too fast for Shackles right now and Threads are too situational IMO.

Oblivion Ring is still the most versatile card, it raises the amount of removal in the maindeck and offers you a solid maindeck-out against extreme gayness like Humility

-Obligitory reference to being pitchable to FoW. Actually this is relevent, because you can't always shuffle away an unneeded Enforcer and it is literally a dead card.

When is a 4 mana 6/6 Flyer with Pro: Black ever dead...?

White Threshold is traditional the more controlling build so I think the Clique has a useful and appropriate role here. Try it out and let me know what you think.

Controlish UGW build without the excellent finishers White has to offer...? Not!

PowrDragn

07-09-2008, 02:06 PM

One of these days when I have free time, I'm going to build a shrine to Adan.

I agree with all his points here. I also have to say that if I was going to include some other maindeck CMC3 creature it would likely be Trygon Predator. He's got a useful ability, has evasion, and a 3 defense. Those three things seem better more often than the things that V. Clique can do for you.

On a different note, would it kill the mana base to play two R dual lands (1 Tropical Island/1 Taiga) to play 3 red elemental blast in the sideboard?

Or even trying two B dual lands to play Extirpate/Thoughtsieze in the sideboard?

After playing a few more games over the past few days, I've realized that I don't want to chagne the makeup of GUw all that much, but having a couple of extra sideboard options might be nice.

kabal

07-09-2008, 02:26 PM

On a different note, would it kill the mana base to play two R dual lands (1 Tropical Island/1 Taiga) to play 3 red elemental blast in the sideboard?
.

Depending on the Meta, but if I were to do that seems that Pyroclasm would be a good fit to handle Goblins, Elves and other similar aggro.

Shugyosha

07-09-2008, 03:03 PM

So, you are playing Spell (n) and Vendilion Clique (n+3 Mana) to force through... a Goyf or something like that. That would make at least 4 mana, for which we can simply have Enforcer to beat the opponent down within 2-3 turns.

Don't leave "n" out. There may be situations where n = Goyf is much better than an Enforcer granted you have one mana more. For example if the opponent had an important card to snatch or finds a removal to deal with Enforcer. In this case two creatures are better than one. I don't say that it will happen more often but without this point of view your argument is not complete.

Also Repeal+Clique deals with every nonland permanent. The opponent will "loose" the permanent while you replace Repeal and also have a creature out.

Also I'm sure you know that Enforcer is not always a Flying 6/6 with pro black but only most of the time. Against certain decks its also hard to play because of their mana denial/color screwing. Said decks often feature Life from the Loam which, I say again, can be snatched by clique to buy necessary time to go aggro or set up Balance.

The one point I agree is that it doesn't fit UGw that well. UGR is the better build for it.

PowrDragn

07-09-2008, 03:05 PM

Depending on the Meta, but if I were to do that seems that Pyroclasm would be a good fit to handle Goblins, Elves and other similar aggro.

I agree on that. And on that same note, if I added black, I'd just as well add Thoughtseize to the main deck.

I'm just wondering if it makes strategic sense to much up for manabase a little bit for the addition of 0-4 card main deck and probably 3-6 cards in the sideboard.

bigbear102

07-09-2008, 07:48 PM

I have been playing UGwb thresh for the past few weeks and have been doing reasonable well with it. I really suggest the Thoughtseize MD. It gives you more outs against the goblin match, and also acts as a counterspell against more controllish decks.

Extirpate in the board is also very useful. It can help deal with Wasteland because we are playing 4 colors, and is also good for some of our worse matchups like Loam and Ichorid.

PowrDragn

07-10-2008, 07:59 PM

Ophidian

07-10-2008, 09:09 PM

As much as I like having black in the deck, I just came up feeling defeated. It looks like our burgeoning meta is going to have a solid bit of aggro (mostly bad decks). A couple of the good players are playing Stax, Enchantress, Dragon Stompy, and some mono-blue combo (storm?).

So, I decided on the following build:

4 Tarmogofy
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Mystic Enforcer
2 Trygon Predator

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
3 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Daze

1 Hoofprints of the Stag
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance

1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Island
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
4 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand

Sideboard:
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Control Magic
3 Hydroblast
3 Krosan Grip
2 Vedalken Shackles
3 Tormod's Crypt

This build holds up well against stax. The basics keep me from getting wasteland locked and the stifles have helped a little as well.

I honestly would like to understand the uses for Engineered Explosives better int his format, because I feel that they belong on this list, but so far it's been subpar for me, so I took them out entirely.

I also wouldn't mind having 3x Wasteland on the list either. Maybe removing -1 Predator, -1 Land, and -1 Daze/Ponder. I'm just not sure at this point though. I guess I could just as well remove two land and ponder for 3 Wasteland, but I'll just tinker around with it to see what happens.

For some reason, the sideboard feels a little weak still. I don't have much against the storm combo deck. I just bring in Gaddock Teeg and hope to beat him down and hide behind a well timed Daze. Gaddock does stop a few cards from getting played. I wish I had something more useful against.

Right now, I'm siding in 3 Crypt and 2 Control Magic against the other local Thresh deck. If he was playing black Thresh I might actually adjust that and bring in Shackles also. It would allow me to take control of Confidant. Just a thought.

I feel overall that the black version should be stronger, but I decided to focus on the best version of UGw that I could.

Hey DeQuan,

We played a few weeks ago at CBC during their weekly tournament (epic mirror match!!!!!) I really like your build. I was just gonna throw out some extra sideboard options--
1) I think another Teeg would be really good. I've been running 3, and I really think it's the right number-- it's a beating vs Stax, Belcher, and random jank. It's passable vs Dragonstompy (stops Chalice..)

2) Sacred Ground-- wow, that card is the nuts vs Stax. If they didn't put Disenchant in, it's pretty much GG. It's also effective vs 43lands and random Wasteland recursion.

3) I know it wasn't as impressive as it should have been against you (since you had the most "clutch" Daze evar lol..) but, Disrupt is really really good. It hits against most decks, and in conjunction with Daze and Stifle can really get you ahead in the early game.

Just some thoughts that I hope work for you.