[OLD] UGw Threshold

[PowrDragn]

Yeah, that Daze was pretty hot. But it was also your Control Magic that opened my eyes a bit and won that game for you :)

I wouldn't mind another Teeg. And Sacred Ground is a neat option. The downside though is that I'm not sure what I remove from the board to play the other cards.

[Ophidian]

Yeah, that Daze was pretty hot. But it was also your Control Magic that opened my eyes a bit and won that game for you :)

I wouldn't mind another Teeg. And Sacred Ground is a neat option. The downside though is that I'm not sure what I remove from the board to play the other cards.

Yeah, Control Magic has been really really clutch for me the last few months.


I'm kinda iffy on Tormod's Crypt-- I'm guessing it's in there vs Dredge-- but I'd almost rather have Teeg vs Dredge-- stops Breakthrough and Dread Return

Plus, is 3 hate cards really enough to stop that deck?

I also think Serenity should be in your board if Enchantress is seeing play

[PowrDragn]

I've got Teeg and Crypt. Dredge and Ichorid can be tough matchups, so I figured those cards will help.

That being said, there isn't a ton of that being played here. But I think a couple of guys that play extended Dredge decks are thinking about playing it in Legacy, so I might as well be prepared.

[Adan]

PowrDragon:

Your build is quite solid, but I wouldn't play Trygons MD and also the Stifles are mediocre. Needles would entirely prevent you from being Waste-locked and it's also cool against Survival, Goblins, Landstill and whatsoever...

I'd try something like this if I were you:

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [A] Tropical Island
2 [B] Tundra
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [A] Island (1)
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [A] Plains (2)
1 [A] Forest (1)

// Creatures
2 [OD] Mystic Enforcer
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [OD] Predict
4 [LRW] Ponder
3 [CS] Counterbalance
2 [10E] Pithing Needle
2 [LRW] Oblivion Ring

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 1 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [DIS] Trygon Predator
SB: 2 [CS] Jotun Grunt

The sideboard is quite blah, I don't know whether I would play Jotun grunts, they are versatile against Dredge and mirror I think.
Gaddock Teeg are there to support the Landstill matchup, not the Dredge matchup.

Dredge will board out Dread Return, Flame-Kin and Sage anyway to pack in Bounce and/or Leylines because you usually can't kill them before Turn 4.
And having Teeg to prevent them from casting Breakthrough or Analysis (some Dredge-builds don't even run them anymore) is bad.

Oblivion Rings are pretty cool I guess. They are also useful against the Chalice-Aggros, Stax and so on.

[PowrDragn]

Thanks for the recommendations Adan.

The main reason I had the Predators main was due to knowing I was going to run into Stax, Enchantress, and Dragon Stompy. All of those deck are artifact/enchantment heavy and he helps immensely. I also feel a little safer with that extra creature to draw to sometimes.

I'm with you on the Stifle. I'd likely only include them in a future build, if I were to add in Wastelands as well. In tandem they seem to be pretty strong, but I can agree that Stifle here, alone, is less than stellar.

I've never been a huge fan of predict, even though I do see its purpose. I guess I could give them a shot.



When fighting against storm-based combo decks (or spell heavy [non-permenant heavy]) combo decks, what is our best plan of attack?

I assume we can try to fight the counter war, but it seem slike they are going to have just as many (if not more than we have).

[ParkerLewis]

When fighting against storm-based combo decks (or spell heavy [non-permenant heavy]) combo decks, what is our best plan of attack?

I assume we can try to fight the counter war, but it seem slike they are going to have just as many (if not more than we have).

CounterTop.

Storm combo decks rely massively on 0 to 2 cc cards, from accel (LED, Petals, Moxen, Rituals...) to filtering (BS, Ponder) to tutoring (IT, BW) to protection (Orim's Chant). There are maybe 6 cards total in a TES deck above that (like 1x Diminishing Returns, 1x Tendrils, 1x EtW, 1x IGG, 2x Infernal Contract).

If you manage to drop the CounterTop engine, you have almost won.

Now that changes if they drop a Vexing Shusher, because uncountered Orim's Chant = you lost. So, ALWAYS keep a relevant cc card on top of your library by default (that is, unless you're countering something else), because even if they got an uncountered OC, the CB trigger well... will still trigger. I'd say maybe keep a land to shut down all their mana sources (LED, Petals, Moxen, except ritual), or a 2cc card to shut down all their tutoring.

The lesson is :
0) Don't be afraid to mull aggressively to get some protection in your starting hand (FoW) and/or some part of the CT engine.
1) Hold the fort till you get CT online.
2) Always keep one mana open for top activation during their turn.
3) Put them on a clock as fast as you can.

[PowrDragn]

Those are all pretty good points PL.

I still stand by the fact that in our local meta maindeck Trygon Predator works out. Even though I'm am well aware it doesn't work in most builds and/or metas.

Are there any matchups where we might want more counters?

Also, is there a superior strategy for the mirror?

[Muradin]

I've recently been trying out Tarmotog as it plays out quite similar to T reshold. I actually didn't like the Deed + low cc creatures plan and Tog himself was quite underwhelming, too. But the engine of the deck worked very well and so I tried to port it into an UGW T reshold.

4 Windswept Heath
2 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Cephalid Coliseum

4 Nimble mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Genesis
1 Wonder

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Intuition
4 Daze
4 Force of will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Senseis Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
1 Life from the Loam

Until now I've done some testing and especially Wonder has been extremely strong in Matchups like Goblins and Aggro Loam. Genesis and Loam/Coliseum generate massive amounts of Cardadvantage which is especially important in control matchups.

What do you guys think of this build and the idea in general?

[Omega]

Is 1 life from the loam enough?

Yes, you can fetch it with Intuition. But for that, you need to reach 3 mana.

I would cut 2 polluted to do +1 island, +1 tropical

I think that +1 eternal witness will be good too.

if you have room, +1 wasteland +1 academy ruins + 1 engineered explosives can be useful


just some ideas

Robert

[Skeggi]

I still stand by the fact that in our local meta maindeck Trygon Predator works out. Even though I'm am well aware it doesn't work in most builds and/or metas.

I run a 4c build with 2 Trygon Predators MB, and I must say I love them. They improve Countertop, they obliterate Stax...Sometimes they act as FoW-fodder, but never I was like "Gawd, if only I didn't draw this Predator, but a...".

My deck is still developing, I'm also running 2x Mystic Enforcer, which has proven alot less useful than Predator.

[PowrDragn]

I have to agree 100%. Except against combo, the predator seems to be pulling his weight just fine.

Reviewing some recent events, it look slike versions with Stifle + Wasteland seem to be doing quite well. I could potentially scrap Predict + Oblivion Ring from the main deck and add the Stifle + Waste. We shall see though.

I so still like having the enforcer. Sometimes it's just nice to have an extra body around. And honestly, the extra bodies make some matchups like Goblins a little less scary.

[Adan]

I've recently been trying out Tarmotog as it plays out quite similar to T reshold. I actually didn't like the Deed + low cc creatures plan and Tog himself was quite underwhelming, too. But the engine of the deck worked very well and so I tried to port it into an UGW T reshold.

4 Windswept Heath
2 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Cephalid Coliseum

4 Nimble mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Genesis
1 Wonder

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Intuition
4 Daze
4 Force of will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Senseis Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
1 Life from the Loam

Until now I've done some testing and especially Wonder has been extremely strong in Matchups like Goblins and Aggro Loam. Genesis and Loam/Coliseum generate massive amounts of Cardadvantage which is especially important in control matchups.

What do you guys think of this build and the idea in general?

Why Intuition? Why Wonder+Genesis? With Coliseum being your only discardoutlet??? With Gigapede it would make sense, but running Intuition + clunky stuff makes the deck slower. You might hit Threshold earlier thanks ti Intuition, but the killspeed is then slower. I also don't like the anti-synergy with Genesis and CounterTop -> too manaintensive.

There are already 2 Decks which have got a better concept than the build posted by you:

NQS aka Not Quite Survival aka BalanceSur

and

It's the Fear.

[Illissius]

My assumption would be: because Coliseum + Loam is a powerful draw engine and Threshold can afford to pay the price of a land drop per use better than many decks, and because Wonder is pretty good. Not sure about the inclusion of Genesis and the exclusion of Gigapede. Genesis doesn't seem so necessary in the maindeck when you've already got Coliseum + Loam; and the primary use for Gigapede would be as a discard outlet for Wonder, so the relevant question there is whether you can consistently attain Threshold for Coliseum by the time you want to Intuition for Wonder, which I guess you'd have to determine by testing it.

Sure Survival Threshold or plain or vanilla Threshold might be better, but that doesn't mean the Intuition angle isn't worth at least investigating. Who knows when you'll stumble on something good in an unexpected place.

[Skeggi]

As I said before, I am currently running a 4c version, mainly to include Bob (as you know, he's just great with countertop). But I'm thinking of cutting black and try this list:



4 Goose
4 Goyf
4 Cold-Eyed Selkie
2 Trygon Predator
2 Mystic Enforcer

3 Counterbalance
3 SDT

4 StP

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 FoW
4 Daze

3 Jitte
--+
43

4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
--+
17

--+
60


So, basically, Cold-Eyed Selkie + Jitte = carddraw.

What do you guys think? Too many permanents?

[Ironstickman]

mmm... goose and jitte?
cold-eyes is too mana intensive and doesn't have an inmediate effect on the board. An in many situations it won't be evasive either...

[Skeggi]

mmm... goose and jitte?
cold-eyes is too mana intensive and doesn't have an inmediate effect on the board. An in many situations it won't be evasive either...

Well the Jittes are obviously not for the gooses, but there are plenty of other critters you can place it under. For the rest, that's what I fear too, but on the good side I got to drop the fourth colour.

[AngryTroll]

The biggest problem with running Selkie in Threshold is that it has to compete against the most efficient of each card type for a slot. Selkie certainly isn't better than any of the creatures we are running, which means it has to compete against the control elements and the cantrips.

Cutting Dazes, Counterbalance, Force, or Swords for Selkie is wrong.

That leaves the Cantrips and the utility slot. I guess you can run 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, 3 Top, 4 Selkie, 0 Portent, 0 Oblivion Ring, 0 Engineered Explosives, whatever.

Selkie shouldn't replace cantrips, though. He needs a spot dedicated to a long term card advantage engine, because you don't even cantrip with him for a full turn, if he connects, on turn four at the earliest. A Portent or Ponder are much better for the early game. On the other hand, in the late game, a Fact or Fiction, for one more mana, will net immediate card advantage and can be cast at EOT instead of during your main phase.

Running no Oblivion Ring or Engineered Explosives seems highly suspect to me as well.

Selkie might have potential, but it would be in control deck that is looking for long term card advantage, not an aggro-control deck attempting to hold back an opponent long enough for Goyfs to end the game.

[Skeggi]

Well in my list you can see I put her in the utility slot. Anyway, if you're running countertop already, you're playing more of a control deck than an aggro deck in many cases anyway. So when running countertop, like I am, I guess she's worth testing. And I will. And I'll let you know ;)

[Citrus-God]

Well in my list you can see I put her in the utility slot. Anyway, if you're running countertop already, you're playing more of a control deck than an aggro deck in many cases anyway. So when running countertop, like I am, I guess she's worth testing. And I will. And I'll let you know ;)

The fact that Threshold has to have a more Controllish approach just because it runs Counterbalance is wrong. You're already pretty aggro just because of the Tarmogoyfs you run and you're only running Counterbalance because it can help protect your threats, is a form of card advantage, and creates a soft lock.

[PowrDragn]

Honestly, the Selkie doesn't really fit well in this deck. Your creatures have great abilities or are oversized for their cost.

The selkie, at best, is going to draw you *A* card. If the selkie gets to a point that it has drawn you 3+ cards, you've probably already won. I'm not really excited by the card at all.

It's small and dies to every random creature kill spell in the format. And it honestly doesn't have a huge ability unless it ends up with a Jitte. So, at that point I'd just as well gamble on Ohran Viper, Ophidian, and/or Thieving Magpie.

However, now that I think about it, Ohran Viper is a much better choice. It bigger (1/3 as opposed to 1/1) and it has Deathtouch, so it can double as a kill spell at times.

[Omega]

This is what i am thinking of using as a sidebord for the Canadian Legacy Championship

SB

4 hydroblast (Goblin and red deck in general)
2 pithing needle (good overall purpose)
2 krosan grip (good against enchantment and artifact and against CB/TOP)
2 underground sea
3 extirpate (can be useful against many deck, useful against graveyard deck)
2 tormod's crypt (i hate ichorid)

I am basically dedicating 7 slots for the ichorid matchup. I am not sure if it will show up... I just hate losing to that deck. What do you think? Is it a good idea? Am i better off with 4 tormod's in the sb?

If i go with 4 tormod's crypt, there will be 3 slots. I will add 1 krosan grip, 1 pithing needle, 1 engineered explosives (good removal).

Robert

[Jaiminho]

Why would you waste slots on your sideboard with 2 lands? If you want to run 4c, then run a 4c mana base and more utility on your sideboard.

[Aleksandr]

Why would you waste slots on your sideboard with 2 lands? If you want to run 4c, then run a 4c mana base and more utility on your sideboard.

Maybe he is afraid of land destruction... It is somehow hard to create 4c stable manabase with 18 lands...
But it is waste of SB space...

[Shugyosha]

4 hydroblast (Goblin and red deck in general)
2 pithing needle (good overall purpose)
2 krosan grip (good against enchantment and artifact and against CB/TOP)
2 underground sea
3 extirpate (can be useful against many deck, useful against graveyard deck)
2 tormod's crypt (i hate ichorid)

I would run at least 3 Grips. When you board them in you usually want to cast more than one in the game. The U-Sea plan is pretty bad. You should better run more diverse hate like Ghostly Prison, Propaganda or Dueling Grounds in addition to Crypt because you can use them against aggro decks in general, where Extirpate is usually bad.
If I fear Ichorid I usually run Engineered Explosives in addition to grave hate because it is very flexible.

[Omega]

after reading some critics

4 hydroblast
2 pithing needle
3 krosan grip
3 tormod's crypt
will be the "core" of my SB

3 slot remaining

Propaganda doesnt look like a good answer to ichorid. Hitting 3 mana can be hard.. I do agree that if i can cast it, the game can be over, unless they borded in some bounce spell

I already play 2 EE MD, should i put a third one SB?

Faerie Macabre? Accelerate my ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh, and can be used in several matchup : Life from the loam.deck, dredge obviously...

third pithing needle?

4th CB in the sidebord?

any more ideas? :)

thank you all

Robert

[Shugyosha]

Propaganda doesnt look like a good answer to ichorid. Hitting 3 mana can be hard.. I do agree that if i can cast it, the game can be over, unless they borded in some bounce spell


If you want to win the game you usually have to hit three mana anyways. That's also what the Crypts are for during the first few turns. Sure they can bounce your Enchantments, so you know that you have to counter it.

Rest of the slots depend on your metagame. I wouldn't play too much Ichorid hate unless you know for sure that the deck will be at the event in large numbers.
Threads of Disloyalty/Control Magic/Shackles are always good to have in a Threshold sideboard.

[Adan]

If you want to win the game you usually have to hit three mana anyways. That's also what the Crypts are for during the first few turns. Sure they can bounce your Enchantments, so you know that you have to counter it.

Rest of the slots depend on your metagame. I wouldn't play too much Ichorid hate unless you know for sure that the deck will be at the event in large numbers.
Threads of Disloyalty/Control Magic/Shackles are always good to have in a Threshold sideboard.

I'd agree here. Ichorid is usually the 10%-matchup. Stuffing the SB with hate-cards makes it slightly better, but the matchup would still suck and you would be less flexible against other decks. When I'm browsing through your SB, I am missing Gaddock Teeg for example. He's extremely good against UWb Landstill and useful against Combo as well.

Playing Threads of Disloyalty is rather a question of "How many Dreadnoughts will be there?". They make the mirrormatch slightly better, but due to the fact that Threshold is always boarding Krosan grip against opposing Counterbalances makes it pretty obsolete.

[Obfuscate Freely]

4th CB in the sidebord?

Yes yes YES.

Why do so many people not do this? If it isn't in the main, the fourth Counterbalance is the first card I start my sideboards with, because it is the best and most important card in the mirror match.

Having the maximum number of copies is also important to combat sideboarded Krosan Grips.


Now, Omega, if you want to have access to black in order to hate Ichorid, why not just upgrade to four- or five-color Thresh? You should really do that anyway, since maindeck Thoughtseize improves virtually every matchup.

[Omega]

but i dont own those cards foils :D.

Metagame in Montreal is always very agressive on mana denial (Bloodmoon effect, life from the loam + wasteland, or simply wasteland/port). Playing 3 color allow me to play 4 basic lands (2 island, 1 forest 1 plain). Playing 4/5 color, although superior against more decks (thanks to thoughtseize and pyroclasm) do not allow me to play that many basic lands.

Let's say

4 hydroblast
2 pithing needle
3 krosan grip
3 tormod's crypt
2 propaganda
1 counterbalance

as sidebord
Here is what i am thinking

against goblin
-2 EE (i play 2 md)
-4 daze
-2 cb (leaving 1)

+4 hydroblast (with swords, i have 8 removal. Hydroblast are also hard counterspell.)
+2 pithing needle (Aether vial, rishadan port, wasteland, siege gang, gempalm)
+2 propaganda (To slow them down.)

against Mirror (with CB/top)
i need 3 Grip and 1 CB. What to remove?

Against combo, depending on the deck, swords can be sided out. EE can also be sided out if no empty the warrens, Armageddon goes to SB for sure.
Hydroblast, pithing, CB are cards that can go in the deck

Against ichorid
-3 CB
-3 werebear (oh yes, i play those md)
-1 armageddon

+3 tormod's crypt
+2 propaganda
+2 pithing needle


against landstill
I might need
+3 k. grip
+2 pithing needle

i think the 4th CB is not needed.

Because landstill doesnt play tight, i think i can side out safely 4 daze. I can also remove a EE. EE doesnt work well against them. I can side out the 2nd EE for a 4th SB.
The landstill i played against didnt have a lot of 4cc. In fact, they had none, except for Force of will and Tombstalker.

Should i find room for Gaddock? Are they that useful?

I expect quite a lot of Dreanought. I dont expect to face many good painter. I dont know anyone owning Recruiter here.

robert

edit : Against Stompy
3 Krosan grip are needed, hydroblast too if Dragon stompy. Armageddon is a card to be cut. They run their deck with little mana. CB are to be cut too, because their CC is concentrated around 3cc.

[Adan]

Yes yes YES.

Why do so many people not do this? If it isn't in the main, the fourth Counterbalance is the first card I start my sideboards with, because it is the best and most important card in the mirror match.

Having the maximum number of copies is also important to combat sideboarded Krosan Grips.


Now, Omega, if you want to have access to black in order to hate Ichorid, why not just upgrade to four- or five-color Thresh? You should really do that anyway, since maindeck Thoughtseize improves virtually every matchup.

Though I am afraid of Blood Moon when playing 5color Thresh, I agree.

5color Thresh has actually the same concept as UGW, with the difference that it has got Thoughtseize MD, which is pretty nice against Landstill, the mirrormatch and yes, everything. Except Fuckorid.

But there it goes, you have access to Yixlid Jailer, which is (at least in in my opinion) the most effective hatecard against Ichorid.

And then there is Pyroblast/Red Elemental Blast and Pyroclasm. REBs are surprisingly broken against blue-based deck, even though you are only playing 2 of them in the SB.

Though I was always of the opinion that pyroclasm is simply overrated like hell against Goblins, my opinion changed when people started to play Mad Aunties.
Mad Aunties are annoying when you are playing with Engineered Plague as it neuters the effect of 1 Plague. you will need a second one to sweep the board an keep it clear, but Pyroclasm sweeps every Goblin (because it kills the Auntie immediately; yes, the Goblin player will regenerate 1 Goblin, but so what?).

I guess I'll test it again as well.

[diffy]

Though I was always of the opinion that pyroclasm is simply overrated like hell against Goblins, my opinion changed when people started to play Mad Aunties.
Mad Aunties are annoying when you are playing with Engineered Plague as it neuters the effect of 1 Plague. you will need a second one to sweep the board an keep it clear, but Pyroclasm sweeps every Goblin (because it kills the Auntie immediately; yes, the Goblin player will regenerate 1 Goblin, but so what?).


I always thought (and still do think) that Blue Elemental Blasts and Hydroblasts are the best hate against Goblins:
They are cheap which is nice when facing Wastelands and Ports or when wanting to advance your own gameplan (playing aggressively is the key to victory against Goblins)
They are in your main colour which is especially nice when playing the 5c manabase
They are Instants which is relevant to stop Warchief/Piledriver or Vial shenanigans which seem to always let Goblins recover post-Pyroclasm.
They aren't only removal which is very relevant against Ringleaders/Matrons
They are also good in other matchups - they can come in against a number of decks, most prominently Dragon Stompy, Aggro Loam and Belcher/TES.

Pyroclasm and Plague also offer some flexibility but their uses are rather limited if you compare them to Blue Blasts: Plague and Pyroclasm can both come in against Ichorid which is an abysmal matchup anyway - you'll still loose. They are also some use against Empty the Warrens, which is a point but Blue Blasts are usually better against combo as they destroy Vexing Shusher or counter Rituals/Burning Wishes - they disrupt early whereas Pyroclasm or Plague just stop one of their finishers. Plague can also be boarded in the Breakfast matchup but does that deck still exist?
On the other hand, Blue Blasts actually make relevant bad matchups better (i.e. anything with Moon) which I like.

[jazzykat]

Sorry, repsonded to wrong post!

[Obfuscate Freely]

Blue Blasts are definitely fantastic, for all the reasons that you stated, Freund. They are, of course, awesome against Goblins. However, against the little green men, Pyroclasm is a much more powerful, and singularly effective card.

Consider that the deck is already fairly well equipped, with Force of Will, Daze, and Thoughtseize, to stop Ringleaders and Siege-Gangs from hitting play. However, Pyroclasm gives you something you otherwise don't have access to: a way to wipe an entire board of Goblins off the table.

If you want to talk about playing aggressively, no other card puts as much pressure on a Goblin opponent as Pyroclasm does. Drawing a single copy of it will let you switch roles and go on the offensive, even if you only have a Mongoose in play. Drawing multiples can let you time walk an opponent right out of the game, and there is precious little that he or she can do about it.

Pyroclasm is also more versatile than you give it credit for. It certainly does come in against combo, and does a fine job of killing Shushers, Confidants, Swarms, and swarms of Goblin tokens. Some number of Pyroclasms also come in against Survival decks, and against decks with Magus of the Moon (answering Magus by tapping Polluted Delta and Tropical Island to play Pyroclasm is always a fun play). And yes, Pyroclasm is good against Ichorid, which becomes at least a winnable matchup if you have Jailers, as well.

Now, again, Blue Blasts are great. I never leave home without them. However, if Goblins is a factor, I would always argue for the inclusion of Pyroclasm.

[Nihil Credo]

I would also like to note that in the early rounds when you face random decks, Pyroclasm has more chances of being useful than BEBs. Against Affinity you can counter the Ravagers and rely on Pyroclasm to get rid of everything else. Against Enchantress it kills their namesake. Against Sui Black it kills most of their deck, depending on the exact build.

[Adan]

Yes Clemens, it also pwns you if you try again to annoy me to death with your ridiculous(ly stong) Elves!.dec. (SRSLY, he has beaten me about 100 times with it.)

Pyroclasm = good card.

Well, I already begun to believe that 5color Threshold is very suitable and competitive in a bread metagame with the configuration like Alix has played it at that tourney in Syracuse: The Sideboard has got all the hate I always wished for in the SB in UGW.

But ObFreeley, why did you exchanged the 2 Portents for 2 Predicts? I found the 2 Portents amazing as they also make Counterbalance safer/better.

[raharu]

Tangent: is there any competitive reason to play Ugbw over 5c?

[Adan]

Tangent: is there any competitive reason to play Ugbw over 5c?

The Manabase. The 5color manabase is way more solid than the 4color manabase with 3 different duals (3/3/3 of Tropical/Tundra/U-Sea).

Plus, you have access to red for some cool sideboardcards against several decks you might be afraid of:

Ancient Grudge against Stax and Dragonstompy
Pyroclasm against Goblins, Imperial Painter, Magus of the Moon in general...
Red Elemental Blast against blue-based decks, Painter

Dunno, but Pyroclasm is one of the card I often miss when playing UGW.

[Omega]

Lifeloss with 5c should be a huge disadvantage

Ive finished 8th yesterday at nationals side event. And looking at my paper, ive won many games at lower than 8 life. The city of brass would have made that win into defeat :O

belcher and UW landstill beat me. I can't believe ive lost to belcher

Robert

[Citrus-God]

But the point of 5c Thresh is to prevent the damage before it happens. In other words, even if you're taking a chunk just by tapping City of Brass and casting Thoughtseizes, you're preventing threats from hitting play and ensuring your Counterbalances' safety, which of course leads to preventing threats from hitting play and protecting your threats as well.

To add on to this preventing threats concept, look at the sideboard of 5c Thresh. You see cards like Pyroclasm and Yixlid Jailers. You're protecting yourself from decks like Ichorid by using cards like Pyroclasm and Jailers and applying pressure with your green dudes.

I highly believe this concept justifies the inclusion of the 5-color mana base because of the card choices you have access to pre-board and post-board.

[raharu]

But the point of 5c Thresh is to prevent the damage before it happens. In other words, even if you're taking a chunk just by tapping City of Brass and casting Thoughtseizes, you're preventing threats from hitting play and ensuring your Counterbalances' safety, which of course leads to preventing threats from hitting play and protecting your threats as well.

To add on to this preventing threats concept, look at the sideboard of 5c Thresh. You see cards like Pyroclasm and Yixlid Jailers. You're protecting yourself from decks like Ichorid by using cards like Pyroclasm and Jailers and applying pressure with your green dudes.

I highly believe this concept justifies the inclusion of the 5-color mana base because of the card choices you have access to pre-board and post-board.

The Manabase. The 5color manabase is way more solid than the 4color manabase with 3 different duals (3/3/3 of Tropical/Tundra/U-Sea).

Plus, you have access to red for some cool sideboardcards against several decks you might be afraid of:

Ancient Grudge against Stax and Dragonstompy
Pyroclasm against Goblins, Imperial Painter, Magus of the Moon in general...
Red Elemental Blast against blue-based decks, Painter

Dunno, but Pyroclasm is one of the card I often miss when playing UGW.

Yeah, that's what I figured. For some reason I'm just drawn to a Ugbw build more :3 Oh well, PyroK is just too dumb to not have in my local meta anyway.

[Aleksandr]

On the last Friday I have tried my UGw Threshold. It is mix between old-school and modern design.. I like creature heavy builds (and Werebear, because of his prestigious right to bear arms), but I like control elements too. This was the list:

8 fetches
6 duals
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

4 Goose
4 Goyf
3 Wereear
2 Enfie

4 Brainstorm
4 Swords
4 Daze
3 Counterspell
4 FoW

3 Counterbalance

2 SDT

4 Ponder
1 Geddon

SB:
2 EE
3 T. Crypt
2 Needle
3 Propaganda
3 Energy Flux
2 Krosan Grip




Report:

1st round: Petr, Affinity:

g1: I put him under serious clock with Goyf, but then I make a mistake, when I allow the Vial to hit play. I thought that I got game under control and I saved my Counterspell against Fling. Few turns later I lose to Ravager of the Vault.

Out: Geddon and some crap. In: Flux and EE (hits Disciple, Platings and Ravatogs)

g2: I mulligan to Flux which I luckily find in my first seven or six cards. I wait for a third land a little bit longer, but I finally put it to play. Petr on his upkeep made a mistake.. if he sacrificed all to Atog and then proceeded to attack, I would lose my Goyf and he could (maybe) kill me with topdecked Disciple.

g3: I mull to Flux. On his 2nd turn, Petr finds Cabal Therapy and fires it. I BS in resp. and hide the Flux. After I put the Flux to play, Petr scoops.

During g2 he could have killed me, if only he eats everything to Atog. (During the attack previous to my landing of Flux..) But I asked him twice how does he stack the ability and then I straight away asked him, if he lets the ability resolve. He was immediately impressed that I have Swords, so he attacked just for 9 and Flings-a-Tog. I force and the turn after I play Flux and win. Hooray for this trick of mine!

------

Round 2, Michal, UR Landstill

We have met on the bar, took some drinks (nealko) and agreed that our first rounds were very hard. Then we acknowledged ourselves that we are paired against each other! Not knowing what each of us played, we have started the game.

g1: I put him under heavy beats with Goose and Goyf. Red has little against these two creatures...

Out: 4 Daze, 2 Ponder. In: 2 Needles, 2 Crypts, 2 Grips

g2: I did not manage anything and I lost very fast. My life went down 19-18-13-3 and then the column ends... BTW, Michal sided in Goyfs. I was not surprised, because I somehow guessed this tactic, but look in my SB - I got nothing against them except for EEs

Out: 2 Crypts, 2 Grips. In: 4 Daze

g3: It was the most exciting and shifting game of the whole tournament. I get some fast beatings with Mongoose and I Sword-off one Mishra. Then both of us get Counterbalance, but Michal later took them out with EE.. along with my Goyf. We landed another Counterbalances and on one occasion both of us forget to try it and rather hardcountered with Counterspells. Ridiculously enough, both of us had nothing on the top.
I finally get Needle on SDT, of which Michal gets rid with another EE. After he blew out the EE, I counter his Top, lay down my own, summon Enforcer and defeat him on the last extended turn.

------

Round 3, another Petr with another Affinity

g1: I started with perfect hand. After few hits with 1/1 Goose I lay down Counterbalance (which after all is not that bad against Affi - sure it does not stop Myr Enforcer, but it stops many other much more dangerous spells). While Petr was chewing me with a worker, I StPed his Frogmites, countered stuff via CB and FoW. My Goose finally goes the distance..

Out: Geddon and some crap. In: Flux and EE

g2: I get fast Flux and Petr, obviously vexed, scoops. I regret him, but such is the game..

-------

Round 4, Tom, Hydrocephalic Breakfast

g1: OK, with all those counterspells, Swords and fast clock this could be good matchup.. unless he goldfishes on the first turn. I somehow survived the first critical turns and right after I assemble CB/SDT and find some Swords, game was mine.

Out: Geddon and some crap. In: Crypts and some crap. (EE? Needles? Maybe..)

g2: Sitting under CB/SDT, with Force backup, two Crypts online, StP in hand and another on the top of the Top... yeah, I won!
Although I lost half of my life points to Narcomoeba, FoWs and fetches... :smile:)


I took the Und. Sea and went to pub, where we discussed and playtest. In my testing I was somehow impressed by Geddon, so I did not took it out. We will see in the future if the card is valuable enough to stay in the deck...
But I made some minor changes. And there is is another tournament today...

Bye now!

[FredMaster]

Grats to the finish first of all.

I got some questions:
1. What is "Enfie"?
2. Since you boarded Geddon out every round but one, is that card still worth playing it maindeck?
3. Why would you board in Dazes against Landstill???

So far,
Fred

[Adan]

I got some questions:
1. What is "Enfie"?

Enfie = Mystic Enforcer


2. Since you boarded Geddon out every round but one, is that card still worth playing it maindeck?

No since it's only good against control and against any other deck too situational.


3. Why would you board in Dazes against Landstill???

In? Out? Out. Well, you can't kill Landstill fast enough, that's why they will relax in the earlygame and make their landdrops. They will play around Daze anyways, so postboard you simply keep the psychological advantage. But I personally also don't like boarding out Dazes against Landstill, except when you have Red Blasts.

Against UR Landstill, Dazes are better since UR landstill has got a way different concept as UWb Landstill for example (aggro-controlish).

[Aleksandr]

Grats to the finish first of all.

Thanks!




I got some questions:
1. What is "Enfie"?
Enfie = Mystic Enforcer




2. Since you boarded Geddon out every round but one, is that card still worth playing it maindeck?

No since it's only good against control and against any other deck too situational.


3. Why would you board in Dazes against Landstill???

In? Out? Out. Well, you can't kill Landstill fast enough, that's why they will relax in the earlygame and make their landdrops. They will play around Daze anyways, so postboard you simply keep the psychological advantage. But I personally also don't like boarding out Dazes against Landstill, except when you have Red Blasts.

Against UR Landstill, Dazes are better since UR landstill has got a way different concept as UWb Landstill for example (aggro-controlish).

Thanx for saving my keyboard! :smile:
The above is exactly true. I just add one more thing about Dazes.. I just wanted to steal some early tempo and be sure that I have enough blue spells for FoW and enough cc2 spells for Counterbalance..

EDIT: I am not 100% sure about situational aspect of Geddon. I like the sealing work it can do. With only one in the deck, it does not clog my hand, while with such a number of cantrips, I always find it, when I need one..

[raharu]

Tangent: A typical CB build of UGw thresh looks something like this, no?

Hand crating: 14
Sensei's Divining Top x3
Ponder x4
Brainstorm x4
Predict x3

Creatures: 8
Nimble Mongoose x4
Tarmogoyf x4

Stack Control: 10
Daze x3
Force of Will x4
Counterbalance x3

Removal: 4
Swords to Plowshares x4

Lands: 18

With 4 to 6 slots open, depending on wether or not you insist on the 4th Daze and the 4th CB (personally, I don't). In transition from UGw to 5 color, if you're running Dark Confidant (which is the main reason to splash black, n'est pas?), it takes 3 slots from Predict and one from the free slots. So you have 3 to 5 left. Enforcer takes 1 to 2, so what takes the other 1 to 4 slots? Thoughtseize? Is 5c manabase + Dark Confidant + Thoughtseize too much*? Are there other things that would better use those slots?

*I don't really think it is, but I play DC with TS, Ajani, O Rings, and other high-cost cards in homebrew because I have obscenely large balls and "Dont Care" (flipping a TS sucks, but it has never killed me, so I've never let that bother me much).

[Obfuscate Freely]

I presume DC is the whole reason to splash black, regardless of what build you're playing.

...if you're running Dark Confidant (which is the main reason to splash black, n'est pas?)...

Yeah, I know, only douchebags quote themselves.

If you own Thoughtseizes, play them, whether you have Confidants or not.

Thoughtseize is an absurdly undercosted card... Every Thresh deck splashing black should have the card in it.

Thoughtseize is amazing, and by far the biggest reason to splash black. Play four or go home.
I don't really see this as much of a debate. Thoughtseize is a fantastic card in nearly every matchup. Dark Confidant is a fantastic card in several matchups, but is a pretty terrible card in several matchups, as well.

The bottom line is that I don't even consider playing Threshold without Thoughtseize, anymore, unless I really want to play Blood Moons. That single card has completely obviated all of the old UGw and UGr lists, and you could never say that about Dark Confidant.

[Aleksandr]

hi gusy am nu to this page and i paly wide threshthresh so i gotta rport 4 ya..



OK. Fine.

There was another tournament yesterday which I attended with my UGw Threshold. I made minor tweak in my list (-1 Bear, +1 SDT) to better manage Counterbalance and fetches.
Tournament started on 5.45 PM with "great" attendance of four participants. (Holidays ftl...) Nonetheless it was one of the most difficult and amusing tournaments I ever joined. No kidding!

The tournament took five rounds of Swiss and cut to Top 8...

-----


Round 1, Martin, TES

g1: For the first few turns Martin thought of my deck been Landstill - I force his Dark Confidant and I also put fast CB+SDT. With the appearance of Mongoose he is on the trail that I play Thresh. I chew him down from 19, 18, 17... to 13, where I cantrip for threshold and lay down another Mongoose. With 17 life remaining and CB combo set, I was far from lethal Tendrils.. and I had an Enforcer backup for the case of massive Warrens.

Out: Geddon and crap. In: 2 EE, 3 Propaganda

g2: Martin played Confidant and I once again assembled CB+Top. After taking four dmg I finally get a Goose to stop his attacks. But I was unable to find fast clock (read: Goyf) and I had same bad luck with removing his Confidant. After few turns (with all this CA) he comboed for 10 tokens. I fail to see EE/Ganda, so we went for the third game.

During shuffling the time was called.

g3: I mull to five. (First hand: basic Plains as the only land; second hand: no land at all..). I keep extremely strong hand which contained Tundra, Counterspell, Daze, Ponder and an unknown strong blue card (BS?). I am unable to win in three turns, so I just have to concern on preventing my opponent from win.
He needs to make storm of 9+ which is not unheard of (esp. on the draw), but he must do it either on his first turn (the 2nd extra turn..) in case of Warrens, or his second turn (the 4th extra turn) in case of Tendrils.
And some reasonable combinations are allowed. This is why I never play combo... :smile:

Strangely, I do not remember the final game well.. It was like:
I play Tundra and pass. Martin plays cantrip, which I Daze. I replay Tundra and pass. He plays land, LED, LED, LED, LP, Brainstorm, in resp. sac LEDs for 3x:u:, 6x :b: and storm:5. I BS and find nothing. His BS resolves. He had a reasonable chance for either Tutor or Wish for IGG (if not IGG alone), but failed to see anything. He burned for nine and we have a nice draw.

-----

Round 2, Tonda, MBA

g1: He thoughtseizes my SDT or CB. (I do not remember it exactly.) Then he lays down Confi, which I immediately sword. I put down Mongoose and bite him for 1, but he summons another Confi. He is on 19 and on the following turns his Confidant takes him down to 12 without making anything notable (well, except for huge CA).
During these turns we battle over with counters, removal, Counterblance and beats. I landed down Enforcer, which (despite of opposing Jitte) meant gg, but Tonda tried to find Hypnotic Specter, which could break the stall. He failed, I won.

Out: Geddon and some crap. In: 2 EE, 2 Needle, 2 Grip (after the match Tonda told me that he took out Jittes... but I had at least some CB fodder against Perish, Nature Ruin and Specter.)

g2: We slowly build our possitions and we lose our hands to Rituals, Fows, Swords and Seizes. Tonda wins this battle, but it seemed like a Pyrrhic victory as he now only had a Hyppie.
Now watch carefully:
I had 18 life due to fetch and Force. Hyppie bit me for two and a crappy card. I am on 16 and fail to draw anything relevant. Same is true for Tonda. Next turn I get SDT at least, immediately screw the Top, but I see nothing. Tonda plays "land-attack-go" for few turns, but I fail to get any shuffle effect until I am on six life... I fetch and finally find Engineered Explosives. I must sustain yet another attack which took me down to 3 life, but during his next attack I break EEs, taking down the Specter.
Then I must fetch twice more for either Counterbalance or to find some critter which took me to 1 life. With him on twenty, I had no chance to resist forever and I lose to Withered Wretch or Nantuko Shade.

g3:

I start with Island and Tonda seizes me. The next turn I lay down the fetch, crack it and find Tundra and Island; of those Tonda randomly choosen which one I shall keep. (Tundra..) I was totally unable to choose by myself, or better yet - to choose by reason. I needed :u::u: for CB (which I immediately played, btw), but I was afraid of Wasteland, because I was light on mana. So I let the decision to miss Fortune..
Next turn Tonda duresses me once more. I blindly reveal Top and since now it was all going in my favor. I assemble the combo, counter his Wretch via Goyf and few turns later I gloriously won with an Enforcer backup.

-----

Round 3, Pavel, Doran aggro

g1: ...was opened with Thoughtseize and I really hate this card. A lot.
I have tried some beats with Mongoose, which gets threshold really fast. But with all of his :3: drops and Vindicates, I could not manage Counterbalance well. He also has a huge number of must-counters (or must-solves), be it named Vindi, Tarmogoyf, Doran, DC, Thoughtseize... and it is hard to operate under his LD suite.
I get him down to three life, but I was "A bout de souffle" and the final blow consisted in removal of my Goyf followed by his Reanimation. (Although he could kill me much sooner with Doran or better yet, with first-striking Monastery that laughs at Mongooses any time.)

Out: Geddon and crap. In: Needle, EE, Ganda (more for the CB reason...)

g2: We sculpt our positions and gently size up a situation. When I get threshold, I immediately try heavy beats - I land Enforcer with another one in SDT. He swords him. I try anotehr one. Swords. I am on thirty life and now I am in difficult situation, as I dont have any great beast remaining...
He puts down Confidant, which endured for many of turns. (In fact he ate eight his life at least.) Pavel played some Extirpates (I remember three) which took StP, Goyf and BS. (Before the game, or maybe during some fetchland, I shuffled my deck upside down, so he aligned it, at least..).
I get Werebear out and stop Pavels attack on my 22 life. (I was so tired I forgot some fetches.. all the people around just laughed when i was unable to count fetch+DC attack correctly...) But he landed Goyf, so I could not attack.
Confidant still brought him some cards and he finally get Grip against my SDT. I draw lands only and I had very little wincons left - except for the Bear, I had another one somewhere in the deck, and also one Mongoose.. the only one I did not side out. (They are bad against Doran and Goyf.. but now I see that they are at least some body.. when everything gets sworded or extirpated.))
I get EE for two but do not blow it immediately, as I had nothing in hand and I would change my two cards (EE and Bear) for his two cards (Goyf and Confi). This in fact was stupid idea. First: I change two for three/four/five.. as Confi brings him cards. Second: What if he draws Grip?
Pavel of course get the Grip. He destroyed EEs, and since now it was all over for me. I drew needles Needles only. (Which could help a lot in the early game against Wastelands, but now are of no use.)
Time was called and my only hope was that he reveals Tombstalker or two. (This is another reason why I was waiting with EEs, too..) This did not happen, so the game was draw and match was lost.

Nice tournament, indeed. It lasted for three hours and in the end I was all of a sweat. Martin took the Bayou as a price. Me and Tonda then went to pub for two lagers and additional testing. Then I pick up my girlfriend and went home, where only my high morale forced me to wash up and pray, because I nearly slept standing...

The end.


EDIT:
I am definitely taking out Armageddon, as it is outdated card and I never really wanted to see it. I would rather low my Landstill matchup by 5 %, than always find my hand clogged in mirror and against LD.
Sensei's Divining Top. Well, it was everywhere. Top in my hand, Top in cantrips, Top on the board, Top in the Top... fetch and another Top. Maybe, maybe I shall return to two-of, but IDK. Today I have too much of it, tomorrow I would not find any...
I was seriously flooded with Enforcer, too, and every opening hand with two of them is like mulligan to five. With two Bears only, it is also somehow hard to play Enforcer fast enough. But I like the additional body, better yet of his size. What is the correct number? I will stay at two.. but something like 1, 75 would be better. :wink:
I lack Needle (against Waste) and EE (Warrens..) heavily. What is better approach? Few additional beat-sticks (like 2 Bears, second Enfie), or some control Elements aka EE and Pithing Needle?
Like everyone, I am unsure of the three-mana hole in CB. But what can we play in here? (Esp. if it makes whopping number of two to four slots...) Trygon Predator? Threads of Disloyalty? Serendib Efreet? Even Krosan Grip? Dunno..
I was very very happy with my four basic lands. I can play nearly anything under Wastelands and if I build the whole semaphore, it can support even Counterbalance (though UU) or Mystic Enforcer (though cc4).

Help and criticism appreciated..

[raharu]

Yeah, I know, only douchebags quote themselves.



I don't really see this as much of a debate. Thoughtseize is a fantastic card in nearly every matchup. Dark Confidant is a fantastic card in several matchups, but is a pretty terrible card in several matchups, as well.

The bottom line is that I don't even consider playing Threshold without Thoughtseize, anymore, unless I really want to play Blood Moons. That single card has completely obviated all of the old UGw and UGr lists, and you could never say that about Dark Confidant.

That's why you play Dark Confidant, he's the drawengine that keeps your hand full and allows you to overextend against Aggro or draw as many disruption spells possible against Control or Combo.

Dark Confidant is essential and THE primary reason to splash black. Period.

I thought Thoughtseize > DC too, but aparently I was wrong... Twice. Anyway, is CD playable in the 5c and bw lists? I've never seen 5c play it, and most 'accepted' lists don't play it, so... What then?

[Illissius]

That would be way, way too much life loss for 5C. About all the deck would be missing at that point is Snuff Out. Then you could call it Suicide Threshold, and be correct.

[raharu]

That would be way, way too much life loss for 5C. About all the deck would be missing at that point is Snuff Out. Then you could call it Suicide Threshold, and be correct.
Most likely. I still feel compelled to test it.

[Citrus-God]

I thought Thoughtseize > DC too, but aparently I was wrong... Twice. Anyway, is CD playable in the 5c and bw lists? I've never seen 5c play it, and most 'accepted' lists don't play it, so... What then?

The reason why you don't run Confidant in the 5c lists is probably the lifeloss with Thoughtseize. Also, I don't think you should run it because it does nothing to contribute to Counterbalance soft-lock. Thoughtseize can at least force it down so that you can ride some random dork for the win. Confidant helps replace losses, but ever since the introduction of Thoughtseize, I didn't feel a need it would do anything because Thoughtseize already keep you from being in a bad situation in which you need a way to recover by solving them in the first place.

[Adan]

The reason why you don't run Confidant in the 5c lists is probably the lifeloss with Thoughtseize.

Rather the lifeloss with City of Brass. I run Dark Confidant and Thoughtseize together in my UGb build (with Counterbalance) and don't have any problems, Dark Confidant fits just perfect into lists with Counterbalance (because of Sensei's Divining Top).


Also, I don't think you should run it because it does nothing to contribute to Counterbalance soft-lock. Thoughtseize can at least force it down so that you can ride some random dork for the win.

I don't get this, Dark Confidant wins against matchups where you have to generate Cardadvantage, because it does it extremely well. Especially the mirrormatch.

[raharu]

Rather the lifeloss with City of Brass. I run Dark Confidant and Thoughtseize together in my UGb build (with Counterbalance) and don't have any problems, Dark Confidant fits just perfect into lists with Counterbalance (because of Sensei's Divining Top).

Truth. In the limited testing I've done with 5c, I've never been happy to see CoB. Ever. But the point is that CoB + Thoughtseize + Confi = obscene amounts of hemorage... Yet somehow I'm still compelled to test it :laugh:


I don't get this, Dark Confidant wins against matchups where you have to generate Cardadvantage, because it does it extremely well. Especially the mirrormatch.

True, but Thoughtseize is better in most regards because it solves problems before they happen, i.e. it takes FoF before it's cast, takes Crucuble before it finishes the Waste-lock, takes Win-Cons/ threats, takes Counterbalances, takes Chalices (if you're lucky/ on the play), and just generally solves the problems that will generate CA or become serious impairments.

[Bardo]

I don't really see this as much of a debate. Thoughtseize is a fantastic card in nearly every matchup. Dark Confidant is a fantastic card in several matchups, but is a pretty terrible card in several matchups, as well.

The bottom line is that I don't even consider playing Threshold without Thoughtseize, anymore, unless I really want to play Blood Moons. That single card has completely obviated all of the old UGw and UGr lists, and you could never say that about Dark Confidant.

I have to completely agree with all of these points and feel the UGw and UGr lists have been made obsolete by now, unless you're going for a dedicated mana-screwing plan (Moon effects, Wasteland, etc.).

Here's what I've been playing and it is a round-house kick of awesomeness:

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Divining Top

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Thoughtseize
3 Counterbalance

4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark Confidant

* 1 Open Slot *

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra

Sideboard
4 Hydroblast
3 Engineered Plague
3 Extirpate
3 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle

With all of the life-loss effects, you're going to take some damage, but the return on your investment is substantial enough that it rarely matters.

I'm not what sure what to do with that open slot. Recently, the list was -1 Thoughtseize, -1 CB#4/Enforcer/Open; +2 Spell Snare, but I'm not 100% on the Spell Snares.

[raharu]

Bardo: why not make the jump to 5c for a stronger sideboard? Do you find that it's not worth running City of Brass to support the Red options in the SB? Personally I've always hated CoB and have only used it because I'm poor/ too lazy to make a manabase that wouldn't need it. The life loss is rather cumbersome.

[Citrus-God]

Rather the lifeloss with City of Brass. I run Dark Confidant and Thoughtseize together in my UGb build (with Counterbalance) and don't have any problems, Dark Confidant fits just perfect into lists with Counterbalance (because of Sensei's Divining Top).

Lifeloss is still life loss. You either build the deck for more raw power (running Confidant) or you build the deck to become more flexible (5c color mana base).


I don't get this, Dark Confidant wins against matchups where you have to generate Cardadvantage, because it does it extremely well. Especially the mirrormatch.

Yes, but if you're a skilled player, you should already beat the mirror.

[Jaiminho]

Yes, but if you're a skilled player, you should already beat the mirror.

Skilled players are 60-40 against the mirror, even if the mirror is another skilled player.

[Nihil Credo]

I'm with Adan on this one. Thoughtseize is a great tool, but it's inferior to Dark Confidant. Thoughtseize smooths your game plan, but DC lets you win games you just had no business winning in the first place.

EDIT: I just realized, why are we having this discussion (or rather, presenting each of our positions) in the White thread?

[raharu]

Lifeloss is still life loss. You either build the deck for more raw power (running Confidant) or you build the deck to become more flexible (5c color mana base).



Yes, but if you're a skilled player, you should already beat the mirror.
A) why not both?

B) when building a list, skill shouldn't influence your decisions. Either a card does something better, or it doesn't.

[Citrus-God]

I'm with Adan on this one. Thoughtseize is a great tool, but it's inferior to Dark Confidant. Thoughtseize smooths your game plan, but DC lets you win games you just had no business winning in the first place.

EDIT: I just realized, why are we having this discussion (or rather, presenting each of our positions) in the White thread?

Yes, I admit, DC is great, but I don't think it's that great if you draw it midgame when the opponent has Counterbalance/Top active. I will admit, DC > Thoughtseize early game in the mirror, but Thoughtseize helps you attack the opponent where he's weak, whether that may be taking a Goyf, CB component, or just denying him of anything of importance in general like counters.


Skilled players are 60-40 against the mirror, even if the mirror is another skilled player.

60/40, is huge. Although I will admit, Threshold mirrors have gotten very volatile because of the Counterbalance, Goyfs, and such.

[Citrus-God]

A) why not both?

B) when building a list, skill shouldn't influence your decisions. Either a card does something better, or it doesn't.

A). Yes, but then you eschewed flexibility. So much for that idea of running cards like Gaddock-Teeg, Pyroclasm, REB and such in the Sideboard.

B). No, but what I was pointing out is that the 5c Lists are the optimal decklists.

[raharu]

A). Yes, but then you eschewed flexibility. So much for that idea of running cards like Gaddock-Teeg, Pyroclasm, REB and such in the Sideboard.

B). No, but what I was pointing out is that the 5c Lists are the optimal decklists.
A) Why would you suddenly be unable to do any of that?

B) Truth, though I'd rather play Ugbw and no CoB, but that's just personal preference.

[Voidsmith]

couldnt a jitte be thrown in to counteract the lifeloss, or maybe if your metagame allows it, a kitchen finks

[I'm a TROLL]

couldnt a jitte be thrown in to counteract the lifeloss, or maybe if your metagame allows it, a kitchen finks

Yeah, I've found that playing one finks, one loxdon hierarch and one harmonize really give the deck some great recover effect from deed and confidant. harmonize is a great card to crack standstill with as they negate each other sinch they dont play daze.

[Happy Gilmore]

I'm with Adan on this one. Thoughtseize is a great tool, but it's inferior to Dark Confidant. Thoughtseize smooths your game plan, but DC lets you win games you just had no business winning in the first place.

EDIT: I just realized, why are we having this discussion (or rather, presenting each of our positions) in the White thread?

I think you have that mixed up, Thoughtseize is the card that lets you win games you have no business winning. I have been able to screw over Ichorid many times this way, along with simply winning against the most terrifying control decks imaginable. From experience I can tell you that DC is a card that has to be delt with by the opponent, and is, quite easily is in this format. Its very good but not the main reason to run black in my oppinion.

[I'm a TROLL]

LOLWHAT? Jitte can't stick to Mongoose, Finks isn't agressive enough, Hierarch is just infinately worse than Enforcer, and Harmonize is GG and 4 mana. Sounds like not a plan.

your opinion. which one is better if you need life? being able to maintain life totals and cards is most important!

[raharu]

your opinion. which one is better if you need life? being able to maintain life totals and cards is most important!
Ajani Goldmane or Pulse of the Fields, actually, which are still incredibly poor choices. If you're in a pinch and need life, Swords to Plowshares doesn't say non-Confidant creatures, and the point of running strong cards that create life-loss is the concept that said cards prevent further life-loss from an opponent's threats. l2deck philosophize.

EDIT: all of those options still suck. I'd rather play fucking Nourish.

[I'm a TROLL]

Ajani Goldmane, actually, which is still an incredibly poor choice. If you're in a pinch and need life, Swords to Plowshares doesn't say non-Confidant creatures.

no, you need beatdown! if we use ajani we need more creatures, although it does pump a goyf and win goyf wars.

[I'm a TROLL]

Ajani Goldmane or Pulse of the Fields, actually, which are still incredibly poor choices. If you're in a pinch and need life, Swords to Plowshares doesn't say non-Confidant creatures, and the point of running strong cards that create life-loss is the concept that said cards prevent further life-loss from an opponent's threats. l2deck philosophize.

EDIT: all of those options still suck. I'd rather play fucking Nourish.

no, you need a life gain engine. if you no lifegain engine, you need the beatdown. why would you run Pulse of the Fields?

[raharu]

Landstill uses Ajani. You don't need more creatures, although Ajani would make Mongeese and 'Goyfs more incredible agaisnt Goblins. Also, you don't need life gain. The NoVA 5c lists didn't have any lifegain in them at all, none of the lists that actually win games run lifegain, and threshold has never run lifegain in any incarnation, outside of StP on one of your own large creatures, which is a rather archaic, if still occasionally useful tatic.

Also, I mention PotF because it's the perfect card for the role you want it to play. It recurs, isn't narrow, isn't terrible like Finks, isn't outclassed by another card/ unviable because of curve reasons like Hierarch, isn't super-situational like 'Jitte, and doesn't suck like Nourish (which is the only viable life-gain option that has been presented, sadly). Unfortunately, it's 1WW, meaning it's unplayable in 4+ color lists, useless in a UGw list, and has hard color and curve requirements (think: it recurs. You want it to recur. You'll have to play it a little more than every other turn in the time that it's relevant. That's a lot of CB mana wasted).

To clarify, I wouldn't play Pulse. It sucks, and while it's an unplayable pile in threshold, it's one of the better options as far as life gain goes. Do note though, that PotF is still a bad card in threshold, as is dedicated lifegain in general.

[Jaiminho]

Why would you ever want to gain life? If you actually need to do it in order to survive against burn, STP you own Goyf or something. Man, this thread has just embraced failure.

[Adan]

I think you have that mixed up, Thoughtseize is the card that lets you win games you have no business winning. I have been able to screw over Ichorid many times this way, along with simply winning against the most terrifying control decks imaginable. From experience I can tell you that DC is a card that has to be delt with by the opponent, and is, quite easily is in this format. Its very good but not the main reason to run black in my oppinion.

YEAH, SCREWING ICHORID WITH THOUGHTSEIZE, RIGHT.

Thoughtseize is beside Counterbalance one of the most terrible cards you could have against Ichorid. The same is true for the Burn-matchup. That's why this can't be the main argument in the "which is the primary card to splash when playing black".

It's good against control, yes, and since more and more decks are playing Standstill as a drawengine again (Landstill and Dreadstill), Thoughtseize becomes better since breaking Standstills with Thoughtseize is good.

[Citrus-God]

Well... if there's one thing Pulse can do right, it can force the opponent to mana burn himself to keep you off Pulse which is basically good for Goyf range?

[diffy]

YEAH, SCREWING ICHORID WITH THOUGHTSEIZE, RIGHT.

Thoughtseize is beside Counterbalance one of the most terrible cards you could have against Ichorid. The same is true for the Burn-matchup. That's why this can't be the main argument in the "which is the primary card to splash when playing black".


Thoughtseize is actually surprisingly good against Ichorid if you're on the play. If they kept a non-broken hand you can nab their discard outlet (Breakthrough, Careful Study, LED, Putrid Imp, in this order) and therewith slow them down to a crawl: they now don't have any discard outlets to start playing magic and will have to skip 2 turns doing nothing if they want to go the DrawDiscardDredge-route - not that this is of any use preboard because you still won't race them, but postboard it is quite a good move to buy you time to draw/cantrip into further hate.



It's good against control, yes, and since more and more decks are playing Standstill as a drawengine again (Landstill and Dreadstill), Thoughtseize becomes better since breaking Standstills with Thoughtseize is good.

Thoughtseize is also good to set-up your main path to victory: a turn 1 Thoughtseize followed by a turn 2 Counterbalance is often devastating.



That's why this can't be the main argument in the "which is the primary card to splash when playing black".


I have to agree with this statement: while Thoughtseize is a good tool for the early- and midgame, it is no threat. It doesn't win games, it only helps winning. Dark Confidant, on the other hand, is a threat that wins games on its own which, in my opinion, makes Dark Confidant the much more attractive card to splash for.
Obviously there's no real reason to not play both, except maybe City of Brass and the 5c manabase which are rather unneeded in my opinion too: there's not a lot of commonly played stuff out there that dies to Swords to Plowshares and not to Ghastly Demise (mainly Dark Confidant and Tombstalker) or Smother (mainly Tombstalker) and if you're that paranoid and absolutely want to play Swords, just go with a 4c Manabase (like Bardo (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=259803&postcount=1304) does) and play more Fetchlands and Cantrips to fix any mana issues that might appear - it's not that hard... I've played 4c Tempo Versions (i.e. 18 land manabases including Wasteland) before and they were all really solid.

[raharu]

Why would you ever want to gain life? If you actually need to do it in order to survive against burn, STP you own Goyf or something. Man, this thread has just embraced failure.
This.

@ DIF: Do you have the list for 4c tempo threshold?

Also, do you mean to say that Red doesn't have boarding options strong enough to justify the 5th color? Or just not the Cities, running a Volcanic instead?

EDIT @ Gitrus-God: In threshold, there isn't anything that Pulse does right.

[undone]

Does any one have a list that can beat ichorid?? I feel like a list involving E tutor should be able to do it.

[Adan]

Does any one have a list that can beat ichorid?? I feel like a list involving E tutor should be able to do it.

UGw can't really beat Ichorid, except you can SOMEHOW manage to get 3 Goyfs to the board in the first 4 Turns AND slow him down with Tormod's Crypt.

You might as well resolve an early Wheel of Sun and Moon which can work,too, just StoP' those Narcomoebas as soon as they come into play.

You would have to do something like this guy

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=17414

to beat Ichorid efficiently, but that takes at least 6 sideboard-slots. This will make other matchups worse.

[Citrus-God]

UGw can't really beat Ichorid, except you can SOMEHOW manage to get 3 Goyfs to the board in the first 4 Turns AND slow him down with Tormod's Crypt.

You might as well resolve an early Wheel of Sun and Moon which can work,too, just StoP' those Narcomoebas as soon as they come into play.

You would have to do something like this guy

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=17414

to beat Ichorid efficiently, but that takes at least 6 sideboard-slots. This will make other matchups worse.

Therefore the most optimal decision you can make is actually play 5c Thresh. It runs Swords to Plowshares maindeck, and post-board, you get 4 Yixlid Jailers and 4 Pyroclasm.

[Shugyosha]

Jotun Grunt really helps with the Ichorid matchup and is very useful in many other matchups where you need a combination of grave hate and beater. If you manage to find Swords for his Ichorids and get a Grunt to stick you can win but its still a bad matchup.

[undone]

Grunt seems good, but it also seems like EE is a fairly multi use card for that MU. Or maby E truth.

The list Im using is

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Predict
2 Repeal
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Ponder

3 Counterbalance
2 Hoofprints of the Stag
1 Threads of Disloyalty
2 Pithing Needle
2 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
2 Island
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Windswept Heath

SB
4 BEB
3 J grunts
2 EE
2 K grip
2 Armageddon
2 open slots Possible options include

2 E tutor
2 E truth
1 grip 1 blue blast
1 geddon 1 grip
2 crypt
2 Meddling mage

[Adan]

2 Repeal
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Threads of Disloyalty

...What sense does this make? Oblivion Ring anyone?

[Shugyosha]

...What sense does this make? Oblivion Ring anyone?

Its my old list. Aggro Loam wasn't a problem back then and I changed it to 4 Swords, 1 Threads, 1 E. Tutor later on cutting other stuff.

@undone: If you still want to run this list I recommend the following changes mainboard:

-2 Needle
-1 Predict
-1 Threads

+1 Enlightened Tutor
+1 Oblivion Ring
+1 Swords
+1 Top

You might also want to try my current UGw List which runs Trygon Predator over Hoofprints, O.Rings over Repeal and V. Shackles over Needle and the 4th Sword instead of the Threads. Well something like this. If you're interested I can post a full list or look through my blog (link in my sig.) maybe its there somewhere.

Gotta go...

[undone]

I really like the list, The only things I have honestly Considered doing to it are

-2 Repeal
-1 predict
-1 needle
+2 enlightened tutor
+1 shackles
+1 Oblivion ring

With some side board tutor targets. I really REALLY hate stifle in white thresh. I guess combo meta games exist but it seems crappy in a non tempo build.

I really dont think 4 swords is needed. I always find myself hating them in hand.

I like 3 swords, 4 is too many, as the threads works as a force pitchable swords that CBs the 3 slot.

All I can say is hoofprints is a HOUSE it wins matchups all by its little bitty self, Im not cutting that card. Ever. It either eats an EE for 2 a spell snare, or wins the game. End of story.

Also, why - threads when you add tutors.. That doesnt make much sence to me.

[ParkerLewis]

I have to completely agree with all of these points and feel the UGw and UGr lists have been made obsolete by now, unless you're going for a dedicated mana-screwing plan (Moon effects, Wasteland, etc.).

Here's what I've been playing and it is a round-house kick of awesomeness:

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Divining Top

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Thoughtseize
3 Counterbalance

4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark Confidant

* 1 Open Slot *

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra

Sideboard
4 Hydroblast
3 Engineered Plague
3 Extirpate
3 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle

With all of the life-loss effects, you're going to take some damage, but the return on your investment is substantial enough that it rarely matters.

I'm not what sure what to do with that open slot. Recently, the list was -1 Thoughtseize, -1 CB#4/Enforcer/Open; +2 Spell Snare, but I'm not 100% on the Spell Snares.

I pretty much love your list, except that you are almost auto-losing to non basic hate (b2b, moons) barring the possibility of countering / thoughtseizing them. Is this possibility high enough ? Now, maybe that's not a problem in your meta anyway, and I agree that fitting 4c with some basics in 17 (or even 18 as in your list, for that matter) is not easy, but is the white splash for stp only really worth it ?

In particular, wouldn't other options like Smother or Diabolic Edict be almost as good, but with the added reward of being able to build a much more robust manabase (while also lowering it to 17 lands thus freeing a slot) ?

[Adan]

I played at the German Legacy Championships Sidevent with UGW Thresh and went 6-2, 10th out of 145 I think.

I played this list:

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [B] Tundra
1 [A] Island (1)
4 [B] Tropical Island
4 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [OD] Mystic Enforcer

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [OD] Predict
4 [LRW] Ponder
3 [CS] Counterbalance
2 [10E] Pithing Needle
2 [LRW] Oblivion Ring

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 1 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [SHM] Wheel of Sun and Moon

My matchups were:

1. Death and Taxes 2-1 Win
2. The Perfect Loam 1-1 and then 2-1 because my Opp got DQed for stalling
3. UB Faeries 2-0 Win
4. RBg Goblins 2-0 Win
5. UWb CunningStill (piloted by Marius "Wasteland" Hausmann) 2-0 Loss
6. UBg Faeries 2-1 Win
7. Solidarity (piloted by Simon "Van Phanel" Ritzka) 2-0 Loss (I R STUPID)
8. RB Goblins 2-1 Win

6-2, 10th Place. I don't know about the other SPOD colleagues, but Christian "Windux" Wilczek played ITF and got 11th with the same result and Alex "mackaber" Mack top8ed with TarmoTog.

A report about matchups, cardchoices, funny quotes and whatsoever will follow soon. Well... UGW = t3h OwnZ0r.

[KillemallCFH]

Your MD is very similar to mine; I'm running -3 Predict, +2 Portent, +1 Land. I think that the 2/2 Oring/Needle split is definitely the way to go. Concerning the SB, how was Wheel? I haven't tried it yet, but it seems pretty good in theory.

[undone]

I am playing 2 enlightened tutors, I was curious are there any remotely playable 4 CC cards for that slot?

[J.V.]

I am playing 2 enlightened tutors, I was curious are there any remotely playable 4 CC cards for that slot?

A singleton Worship maybe?

[Adan]

Your MD is very similar to mine; I'm running -3 Predict, +2 Portent, +1 Land. I think that the 2/2 Oring/Needle split is definitely the way to go. Concerning the SB, how was Wheel? I haven't tried it yet, but it seems pretty good in theory.

Wheels are pretty similar to Leylne of the Void and that was key against The Perfect Loam. g1 I lost very close (I just needed to play Needle on Maze but didn't found my 2nd Needle) and g2 he annoyed me with double-Exploration, Crucible and Zuran Orb. Since the deck runs about infinite recursion-engines (Eternal-Witness-Stronghold, EE-Ruins, Loam, Crucible), Wheel was better than Jotun Grunt in this case because it also shut of all those Zuran-Orb shenanigans.

Why my Opponent got disqualified:

In g2, I was on a god way to win it with 2 Needles on Wasteland and Ghost Quarter. In the lategame, he had 3 Mishra's and Tabernalce, whereas I had 2 Goyfs and Enforcer (18 Power). I also had CBalance with O-Ring floating on top which countered Witness, Predator, Crucible, Propaganda and 100 more spells, dunno anymore. So when there were about 7 minutes left until timeout, he always actiated his 3 Mishra's at end of my turn and then like "this one pums.. this one, this Mishra pumps the other one and this one...well, pumps itself". He was doing it 4 or 5 times and in this time, 3 judges gathered around us. Before the extraturn I'm pissed, and decide to dig for my 3rd Needle with double-Ponder and a fetch. With succes. I needle Mishra and swing for 18 three times. His Zuran Orb could not save him since he was keeping a Glacial Chasm alive with it some turns before.

So, officially, I ripped the 1-1 draw from the top. But then some time after, a judge tipped on my shoulder and said: "Yo, your opponent is going to be DQed and you will get the 2-1 win" "Why is that?" "Well, we watched it and we all decided that he was intentionally hindering you to win the 2nd game -> stalling".

@ discussion: Enlightened Tutor sucks because it's carddisadvantage and clunky.

[AngryTroll]

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra




// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [B] Tundra
1 [A] Island (1)
4 [B] Tropical Island
4 [ON] Polluted Delta


UGW Land Base:

4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

Now, of these three manabases, which one is the strongest?

The biggest problem I have with four and five color Thresh lists, and even Adan's three color list (congratulations on the finish, though), is that you are wrecked by decks like Imperial Painter, Dragon Stompy, and Survival that run Blood Moon effects. True, Thoughtseize is amazing in all these matchups, but a topdecked Magus of the Moon or Blood Moon ends the game. Thoughtseize, Daze, Force, and Counterbalance are all great, but against a deck like Dragonstompy and Survival with a billion must-counter cards, making Magus another game winning bomb for them is a terrible idea.

Magus of the Moon, Blood Moon, Wasteland + Loam, and Price of Progress are all cards that see play that are strong against Thresh. However, without a single basic in the deck, you are needlessly opening yourself to randomly losing games to bad decks.

[Brushwagg]

@Enlightned Tutor: I agree Adan here. There is no reason what so ever that you need this card in threshold. The deck has more then enough digging power.

@The mana bases: When ever I run Threshold, no matter the color combonations I always run basics. Usally 2x Island 1x Forest and 1x the splash color. As Angry Troll points out, Moon effects put you in a world of hurt without some basics.

@Engineered Explosives: I'm rather surpised that more lists don't include them SB or MD. Why is that? I've found them to be quite usefull in alot of matches.

[Adan]

UGW Land Base:

4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

Now, of these three manabases, which one is the strongest?

The biggest problem I have with four and five color Thresh lists, and even Adan's three color list (congratulations on the finish, though), is that you are wrecked by decks like Imperial Painter, Dragon Stompy, and Survival that run Blood Moon effects. True, Thoughtseize is amazing in all these matchups, but a topdecked Magus of the Moon or Blood Moon ends the game. Thoughtseize, Daze, Force, and Counterbalance are all great, but against a deck like Dragonstompy and Survival with a billion must-counter cards, making Magus another game winning bomb for them is a terrible idea.

Magus of the Moon, Blood Moon, Wasteland + Loam, and Price of Progress are all cards that see play that are strong against Thresh. However, without a single basic in the deck, you are needlessly opening yourself to randomly losing games to bad decks.

I always run that manabase because it looks like this:

4 Tropical Island, german fbb
4 Tundra, german fbb
4 Flooded Strand, japanese
4 Polluted Delta, japanese
1 Island, Alpha

No bullshit. The antisynergy of the non-Island lands with Daze and Counterbalance is just secundary... No, that is the main reason why I don't run any non-Island lands. I always have that kind of bad luck.

But if you want to play the manabase which is less vulnerable to Moon-Effects, there are 2 alternative Manabases. I'd play Der_imaginäre_Freund's I guess which consists of:

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Windswept Heath
2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

The good thing is that you are very flexible and having a huge amount of fetchlands makes Brainstorm INSANE. You can also compensate the high permanentcount. But it has got a terrible anti-synergy with Predict and having less "real" lands may still weaken you against Wastelands or Ghost Quarters or similar shenanigans (10 of your lands are quasi non-permanent, 4 of them can be wasted, 3 of them are NEARLY invincible).

The Plains is not really necessary, but in the scenarios you described it seems to make sense because you still have active StoPs unter Moon-Effects.

But I still don't really like it since running less than 16 blue sources can be disturbing.

Now after these points, I can show you the other alternative manabase which is more simple, just cut the Deltas from my manabase and add 3 Heaths and 1 Forest:

4 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
1 Island
1 Forest

The Forest as the 17th land seems to be acceptable.

Those bases all have 17 lands which I found very useful since I am playing cards like Oblivion Ring and Mystic Enforcer. Mystic Enforcer is simply the brute force which wins games within 3 Turns, that is just mighty.

Running a manabase like Brushwagg described it (or simply something like Clemens' manabase) would - in my opinion - require you to run 18 lands which is simply too much. I am only running 17 lands because of the Enforcers, but otherwise there would be no need since you can maintain you manabase very well if you play your cantrips skillfully.

Which manabase you play is dependant on your approach to Threshold and your meta of course. But I am not really afraid of either Dragon or Painter.
If I lose, I will accept that (I can say this here since you never saw my reactions after a humiliating defeat, haha).

I am still of the opinion that UGW is more flexible in compairison to 5color Thresh. The strange thing is, the more I play UGW Threshold, the more I am of the opinion that every Threshold variant simply HAS to include 2-3 Pithing Needles in their 75. They have been way more versatile than Thoughtseize would have been, maybe also because they are way more proactive and also help when they topdeck the trash you played Needle on.

That might also be the reason why Engineered Explosive is seldom played over Needles, they are as reactive as Oblivion Ring but way more manaintensive. Oblivion Ring gets the job done instantaneously and helps you against deck like Clemens' Landstill. And if not, they are like Removal No. 5-6. Try to handle Humility with Explosive...

[Brushwagg]

Running a manabase like Brushwagg described it (or simply something like Clemens' manabase) would - in my opinion - require you to run 18 lands which is simply too much.

No I run 17 just fine. I'm never colored screwed. I just like to know if I'm playing a deck with moon effects/wastelands I'm not locked out (which there are a few decks in my meta that show every week).

@EE vs other stuff: The reason I go for E.E. over MD needle or O. Ring is the fact that it deals with multiple problems ie: Empty the Warrens tokens (Bryant Cook is in my meta)/ Zombie tokens etc... I tried O. Ring and found it not to my liking.

Here's the list I usally run.

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [LRW] Island (3)
1 [RAV] Forest (3)
1 [CHK] Plains (3)
4 [A] Tropical Island
3 [A] Tundra
2 [ON] Windswept Heath

// Creatures
2 [OD] Mystic Enforcer
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
3 [NE] Daze
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [OD] Predict
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [TSP] Krosan Grip

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [DIS] Spell Snare
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [TSP] Snapback
SB: 2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles

[raharu]

MD Grips? I don't see much reason not to play O. Rings over grips in the main :3

Snapback? Huh...

Dreadstill, right?

Interesting list. I like it.

[Brushwagg]

MD Grips? I don't see much reason not to play O. Rings over grips in the main :3

Ok I feel I have to address this. Grip in the main is more of a meta game choice. In Syracuse I face Painters, Counterbalances, Humility, Survival, etc.. all of which I want gone ASAP. Not to mention I found myself siding them in more often then not, so I moved them MD.

O. Ring does get rid of the above but at Sorcery speed. I like the fact I can Grip at EOT.


Snapback? Huh...

Kinda for my meta again. I was looking for another out against Magus of the Moon and this one is "free".


Interesting list. I like it.

Thank you. It's been good to me for the most part.

[raharu]

I like non-contemporary lists. Your's is rather strong. I like seeing how thresh lists adapt to different metas.

On the note of Magus, do you feel that BEBs are insufficent? I'm just wondering because BEBs hit Blood Moon too, so perhaps it's something to test, although I'm assuming you already have.

[jazzykat]

@Adan, et. all: Given that red has swans and the power of the combo finish or tempo version the reason to play this version is that:

it has swords to plowshares?

[Aggro_zombies]

@Adan, et. all: Given that red has swans and the power of the combo finish or tempo version the reason to play this version is that:

it has swords to plowshares?
That, and Oblivion Ring. There's also the possibility that something good could come out of Alara, like that Winter-Orb-for-dudes Angel.

[Aleksandr]

@Adan, et. all: Given that red has swans and the power of the combo finish or tempo version the reason to play this version is that:

it has swords to plowshares?

Yes. That and Mystic Enforcer.

In nowadays metagame you absolutely need to be prepared to kill Goyf. StP kills Goyf. Same is true for threshed Enforcer, which also has the ability to fly over ground stalls and be a 3,33 turn clock with Pro:Tombstalker.

[Joon]

With white you also have excellent Sideboard options in form of Gaddock Teeg for the Landstill-Matchup (he stops Wrath/Humility/EE, their and our Forces and FoF if they play that, and in addition he stops the mighty hardcast Decree :tongue: ), Wheel of Sun and Moon (I know that this card can be played in all other Threshlists, too but in this one you can cast it easier due to white and green mana), Meddling Mage (again against Landstill and obv. Combo, maybe in the mirror usable, against Other Threshlists (that don't splash white) pretty good as you can stop cards like their removal (Smother/Demise) Combocards (Swans/Chain), their solution against CB/Top (Grip/Predator), or even Goyf if you have one or two) and last but not least good ol' Armageddon. This buddy is only good in the LS MU, but it's ok to have 2 copies of them in the board as they are good against every Controldeck (play 1-2 Critters, at best a Mongoose or two as those can't be killed by a topdecked Land into StoP, Geddon the lands away and start the beatings).

Good things about StoP and Enforcer (and maybe additional Hoofprints) were already pointed out.

[Adan]

This is interesting, I can use my PS3 to post on TS...

Well, Joon and Sasa already gave a good description of what White has got to offer. It has got a lot of versatile and useful cards which allows us to have enough space for cards like Pithing Needle and such, hence the huge flexibility without busting your manabase or removal.

This is pretty much the conclusion I've made right after the German Legacy Champs since I've always had my best results with UGW Threshold.

[Joon]

This is interesting, I can use my PS3 to post on TS...

Poser :tongue:



This is pretty much the conclusion I've made right after the German Legacy Champs since I've always had my best results with UGW Threshold.

What do you think about these Manabases with 3-4 Basics (1-2 Island/1 Forest/ 1 Plains)? I don't like them, but I'd like to hear your opinion on that, Mr Scrubtastic.
At the moment I play 8 Fetch/8 Dual/1 Island and I'm pretty happy with it. maybe adding one Forest instead of a tropical and Heaths instead of Deltas could be efficient but I generally dislike those 3-4 Basic lists due the fact I'll never run less than 4 Daze.

[Brushwagg]

What do you think about these Manabases with 3-4 Basics (1-2 Island/1 Forest/ 1 Plains)? I don't like them, but I'd like to hear your opinion on that, Mr Scrubtastic.
At the moment I play 8 Fetch/8 Dual/1 Island and I'm pretty happy with it. maybe adding one Forest instead of a tropical and Heaths instead of Deltas could be efficient but I generally dislike those 3-4 Basic lists due the fact I'll never run less than 4 Daze.

I say each to there own. Me personally I don't like to scoop it up to Blood Moon/Magus of the Moon and non-basic hate.


On the note of Magus, do you feel that BEBs are insufficent?

BEB's are more narrow. I can bring in Snap Back against other non-red decks as well. I mean BEB is fine but Snap Back seems to be more useful to me.

[SuckerPunch]

Has anyone reached an agreement on whether 17 or 18 lands is the correct number?

I'm still wondering which is correct. I do play Daze.

My manabase looks like this...

4 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

If I went to 18 lands, I would...

+1 Forest

This is because the only white cards in my list are 4 StP and 2 Mystic Enforcer (both green and white). But I run 4 Mongeese, 4 Goyfs, 2 Trygon Predators maindeck so I am a lot more reliant on green than I am on white.

Here is my list if you're curious.

Please critique the crap out of it so I can improve it...

4 FoW
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 StP

3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
3 Counterspell
3 Predict
3 Daze

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trygon Predator
2 Mystic Enforcer

4 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

Once again, please critique the crap out of it.

-------------------------------------------

Also, I think it would be fruitful for us to list ALL the very best possible sideboard cards we have to choose from.

Here is what I can think of...

Trygon Predator
Veldalken Shackles
Pithing Needle
BEB
EE
Tormod's Crypt
Krosan Grip
Oblivion Ring (or is this a card that only makes sense in the maindeck)

Please feel free to add to it.

[Jak]

I would definitely run the 4th Heath as your 18th land. Running another non-island card would just totally screw up hands. You only need one basic forest against Wasteland. This will give you more access to both white and green, and it is another shuffle effect.

[Aleksandr]

With white you also have excellent Sideboard options..

QFT



What do you think about these Manabases with 3-4 Basics (1-2 Island/1 Forest/ 1 Plains)? I don't like them, but I'd like to hear your opinion on that, Mr Scrubtastic.
At the moment I play 8 Fetch/8 Dual/1 Island and I'm pretty happy with it. maybe adding one Forest instead of a tropical and Heaths instead of Deltas could be efficient but I generally dislike those 3-4 Basic lists due the fact I'll never run less than 4 Daze.

I say each to there own. Me personally I don't like to scoop it up to Blood Moon/Magus of the Moon and non-basic hate.


Again: QFT.
I dont like to lose to Wastelock/Moon effects. And with 2/1/1 basics I still got chance to dodge it, even though little one. (Wastelock is much less dangerous than Moon, because Moon can screw you on turn 0.)
I have never had problems with Daze. (I have much more problems with FoW, even tough I play 23 blue spells.:confused:)
Or better said - inability to cast Daze is not the main reason to be afraid of non-Islands, because if I cannot play Daze (spell that reads "have an Island to play me"), I also cannot play BS and Ponder, which means that whole my plan was somehow ruined.
Still, I will never take those basics out. It gives me a chance against dominating decks of format (LS, Loam) and against frequently used hate (Moon, Wastes). Last but not least, I like the symmetry: 4+4 fetches, 3+3 duals, 2+2 basics.



I would definitely run the 4th Heath as your 18th land. Running another non-island card would just totally screw up hands. You only need one basic forest against Wasteland. This will give you more access to both white and green, and it is another shuffle effect.

This is true.
BTW, I cannot understand, how can you ppl play with 17 lands.. (Born lucky?)
With 18 lands I mull so often that I would be very cautious to take another land out. Esp. with Enforcer..



NQ report:

list:
8 fetches
6 duals
4 basics

4 gooses
4 goyven
2 bears
2 enforcers

4 bs
4 daze
4 Fow
3 counterspell
4 stp

4 ponder

1 ee
3 sdt

3 cb


x needle
1 crypt
2 ee
2 grip
2 aether flux
3 propaganda

or something like this, lazy to look for the deck..



I played NQGw during yesterdays tournament (8 ppl: me, Dragon Stompy, 2x Affi, Ceph. Breakfast, NQGr, Grb homebrew, RW homebrew) What a meta :tongue:


Round 1, Tom, Breakfast:

g1: I won the dice roll, start some assault, but I lack FoW against his Vial. He hardcast Cephalid, then taps Vial.
"Rather than StP Cephalid in response to Vial, you may choose to lose the game."
Yep, I made that mistake. I thought that I could sword the Ghoul, but I forget the Therapies. Even though Tom did not Therapied my StP (because he had all his combo in hand), my StP was useless - he played Reveilark kill. I StP Feeder in resp to saccing Reveilark, but 8 zombies went the distance.

In: crypt, EE, ganda (sh!t, but stops zombies), needle

g2 and g3 I won on the backs of crypt and esp. Counterbalance. In g3 I vandalize my EE to make Enforcer fly, but we made some mistake, so after I attacked, he had one life left. Nonetheless, I was in total ctrl, while he was in total topdeck, so I won the next turn.


Round 2, Martin, Grb homebrew.

g1:
him: elf
me: tundra
him: boa (dazed)
me: tundra
him: boa (dazed)
me: tundra
him: ohran (dazed)
me: tundra
.
.
.
him: Jitte (CBed)
.
.
.
him: tap Ascetic, boa, boa, (StP, blocking: Bear, Goose)
.
.
.
me: tap enforcer (18-6)
me: tap enforcer (12-6)
me: tap enforcer (gg)

In: EE, Needle,

g2:
him: bop
me: fetch
him: rancor bop (stp)
him: bop
me: land
him: rancor bop (stp)
me: goose
him: elf (still on one land!)
me: EE@1, crack
him: 0
me: enforcer (hand: Fow, Counterspell, CB, BS)
him: "gg"

I never seen any black or red card from him.. but he played fetches and Ravnica duals..


Round 3, Petr, Affinity

During shuffling he revealed that he lost two cards. We cannot find them even under the table, in wallet, etc. He calls judge, gets game loss and two basics. Before we start the game, we once again looked for the cards, but did not find them. He said he wanna know what he lost, at least..
We arranged the deck on the table and found that he lost Myr Enforcer and Arcb. Worker - not so terrible, it could have been Ravager or Nexus..
Petr than he said that it is irrelevant to play, as I have seen his deck, he has GL and lacks cards. I said Ok. This means I won the prize.
Than we chat and search his belongings for missing cards, but could not find them still. (not a question of money, but of principle - heck, he does not suffer of Alzheimer yet, does he?). Found: 0.
He said ok, go for your prize.
I looked around and on the next table I found: the missing Myr and Worker!
So I said him to shuffle it and start the g2.

g2:
I was little bit afraid, because Affi is somehow hard MU, but he mulled to five, lost and with his previous GL this means:

I WON TEH FUCKING DUAL LAND!!!

So I took Dimir Aqueduct and went to the pub.



Pub reprot:
Beer, lost to Affi, won, won, lost, beer, lost, won, lost, beer, potato plaster, beer, lost, go home.

The End.

[Nihil Credo]

I would definitely run the 4th Heath as your 18th land. Running another non-island card would just totally screw up hands.
I would agree on a fetch over a Forest, but the reason you stated does not apply: since he's cutting a spell for it rather than a blue land, running an extra Forest would not affect the number of hands he has to mulligan for lack of Islands.

[ParkerLewis]

BTW, I cannot understand, how can you ppl play with 17 lands.. (Born lucky?)
With 18 lands I mull so often that I would be very cautious to take another land out. Esp. with Enforcer..

I can't speak for others, but my current (yet maybe a bit outdated / soon to be updated, but that's not the issue) list runs 17 lands and it's just fine - when i have trouble with land, it's because i see too much of it. As a reference, here's the list :


// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [b] Tropical Island
3 [b] Tundra
1 [PT] Forest (1)
2 [APL] Island (3)

// Creatures
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [OD] Mystic Enforcer

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares
4 [LRW] Ponder
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [OD] Predict
3 [CS] Counterbalance

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [BOK] Threads of Disloyalty
SB: 3 [6E] Serenity
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt

I guess running 12 cantrips (4 BS, 4 Ponder, 4 Predict) compared to your 8 ones helps, but still, with the additional Tops, you really should have enough filtering power to support 17 lands.

Now, of course, your list also runs the iconic UU Counterspell, which doesn't seem at home in a Thresh list, because you're supposed to be low on land and use it every turn, barring the occasional one mana you'll save for Top activation / eot BS. Which is also why the deck runs 8 free counters... you simply can't expect to manage keeping enough mana open for a UU counter.

Now, I'm not saying that CS is a bad choice in your list (maybe your meta justifies it, or anything else), but what is clear to me is that running it solely prevents you from playing 17 lands, and what you're experiencing (ie troubles even at 18 lands + mana bears) doesn't surprise me at all. I have to admit that I can't see how they could worth the trouble without at least 19 or 20 lands, which in turn would call for a different kind of deck altogether.

So, once again unless you have a very specific reason for really needing them, i'd suggest to simply get rid of them, free a land slot by going 17 lands, and replace those slots with some additonal filtering (1-2 predict / portent ?) & utility/removal (needle, oring, another ee ?).

[Omega]

if you want to keep the counterspell maindeck..

i would try cutting the 2 trygon predator (unless your meta is high on dangerous arti and enchant) for two additionala cantrip. Portent comes to my mind. Just to stabilize your deck. Doing so, you can go back to 17 lands :)

I would also just play 2 CS (counterspell). With the 1 cut, i guess you can put in EE, o ring, or whatever cards you want

Robert

[SuckerPunch]

Thank you. That's a good suggestion. I was playing Trygon Predator because I see a lot of random artifacts (Chrome Mox, Isochron Scepter etc) but honestly, I don't see too many artifacts/enchantments that I absolutely have to stop (Chalice, Blood Moon etc) so I guess I don't need to maindeck it.

I have never been a fan of Portent though. So I'm just going to play a business spell instead.

Taking that into account, here is what I am running now...

4 FoW
4 StP
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Mongoose
4 Goyf
2 Enforcer

3 Sensei's Top
3 Counterbalance
3 Daze
3 Predict
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Manamorphose
1 Counterspell

4 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

Is the curve too top heavy to be run with just 17 lands. I could cut an Oblivion Ring for another fetchland.

I can't decide between Shackles and Counterspell. I see a lot of aggro so Shackles has been helpful.

I am also working on the sideboard right now.

Given that I already play Oblivion Ring maindeck, what cards are worth running.

Is 3 Tormod's Crypt worth sideboarding. Everyone says that it doesn't do enough against anything. But it is versatile and very cheap. Is Wheel of Sun and Moon purely superior to Tormod's Crypt?

Is 2 Engineered Explosives worth sideboarding given that I already have Oblivion Ring maindeck to deal with permanents.

Is 4 Blue Elemental Blast worth sideboarding in a deck that plays 3 Oblivion Ring and 4 StP maindeck already?

Which is the superior sideboard card, Krosan Grip or Trygon Predator. I am currently doing a 2/2 split. Is that overkill?

Thank you so much for any help.

[Omega]

I believe Shackles to be strictly inferior to Threads in ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh, except in some rare occasions. And even then, Threads are pretty bad....

IMO, you are better off with
+1 daze
+1 land/pithing needle/EE

Robert

[SuckerPunch]

You're right. Shackles isn't very good these days.

I decided to go...

-2 Veldelkan Shackles
+2 Manamorphose

I am updating my list as we speak.

I really don't think Manamorphose is getting the respect it deserves. It effectively lets you play a 56 card deck.

We are so adamant that a deck should never exceed 60 cards to maximize the oppurtunity to draw the most powerful cards we can.

It gives us that better a shot at drawing the truly broken cards like Tarmogoyf and Force of Will that we can never get enough of all without using any mana.

The ridiculous argument that people make against Manamorphose, that it makes for tougher mulliganing decisions simply doesn't make a lick of sense. If that were the case, we shouldn't have be playing any cantrips. All cantrips make for tougher mulliganing decisions. That's just the nature of a cantrip.

So when we have the oppurtunity to play 56 cards, why don't we use it.

Well that's not a fair statement. I am only playing a 58 card deck as I could only make room for 2 Manamorphose.

But atleast that's a start.

Here is my temporary test sideboard...

4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Trygon Predator
2 Krosan Grip
2 ??????????

Any suggestions please?

[Jak]

I would agree on a fetch over a Forest, but the reason you stated does not apply: since he's cutting a spell for it rather than a blue land, running an extra Forest would not affect the number of hands he has to mulligan for lack of Islands.

Yes, I know. Still, running only 15 sources of blue is low and adding another is important.

[SuckerPunch]

I don't buy that.

Considering that we run at a bare minimum 11 cantrips, and considering that a grandtotal of three cards in the whole deck need double blue mana, 15 blue sources is plenty. Especially if you play 2 Manamorphose that have the advantage of getting UU when needed.

You can however argue that the deck needs more lands because that particular build is either too low on cantrips, or plays on too high of a mana curve.

[Jak]

I don't buy that.

Considering that we run at a bare minimum 11 cantrips, and considering that a grandtotal of three cards in the whole deck need double blue mana, 15 blue sources is plenty. Especially if you play 2 Manamorphose that have the advantage of getting UU when needed.

You can however argue that the deck needs more lands because that particular build is either too low on cantrips, or plays on too high of a mana curve.

You will get hands with a forest and an island and not be able to cast that turn two balance. I am not a math wiz, but running 3 basics that don't say Island will make you mulligan more. You don't even need to have 2 basic forests in the deck, anyway. Running Heath gives you more blue sources, more white sources, the same amountof green sources, and a shuffle effect. I guess I am just a guy who doesn't want to mulligan if I don't have to.

[raharu]

The ridiculous argument that people make against Manamorphose, that it makes for tougher mulliganing decisions simply doesn't make a lick of sense. If that were the case, we shouldn't have be playing any cantrips. All cantrips make for tougher mulliganing decisions. That's just the nature of a cantrip.

Untrue. Ponder lets you take the best of three, making it easier to take somewhat sketchy looking hands because you will most likely find what you want/ need in those first three cards. Same is true of Brainstorm, but it's the best of 3 + handsize. Manamorphose, on the other hand, isn't a card quality cantrip. You're pulling a random card off the top, and you have to pay two mana to do it, which means that it in fact does make Mulliganing decisions harder because you don't know what that next card it, and you can't select from the cards on top or shuffle them off. Sometimes you don't have cards to sink two mana into. Other times you need a specific card and you need it to, you know, do something relevant, or at the very least dig deep for something else that could be relevant. In all honesty, I'd play Portent or Opt in those slots. Hell, I'd play Street Wraith before I ran Manamorphose because it can be used early because it's free, and used at instant speed, and better with top (because you don't have to draw with top, you can grab the card at instant speed with Wraith), and it's better with a t1 filter (that is to say, Brainstorm or Ponder, because they filter as opposed to your definition of 'cantriping', whereas mine is indicative of having card selection instead of just replacing itself).

Actually, Repeal looks kinda nice, after looking at cards that replace themselves at instant speed. Huh... this could possibly be interesting. At the worst it pitches to FoW and kinda handles Counterbalance G1.

[Omega]

I seriously don't understand why you want to play Manamorphose...

I know, when the card was first spoiled, people were claiming that it was going to be played in ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh (at least in my area). Guess what? It never saw any play because it is just plain bad.
People says : It will help us get 2 blue. The deck runs 7-8 fetches, 6-8 blue dual, 0-2 island. Does it really need a card to get 2 blue mana source?
People also says : It is a free cantrip. Yes, true. But i would rather have a real cantrip, say ponder, portent, brainstorm, predict, sensei instead of a weak Manamorphose. You still need 2 mana for that blind cantrip.

Manamorphose, let me say it, is strictly a combo card. Free mana fixing cantrip spell are always good for combo deck because their deck is usually : mana (rituals), kill, tutor, little protection and some lands.
ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh, on the other hand, has 17 land, 10-12 creatures, 4-6 removal, 11-12 counter, 11-15 cantrip, and other. Do you really want to random one of the following cards? I don't. Even for free, i would rather not waste a space.

And about the 56 bullcrap.deck. No. No. No. Remember the hype around street Wraith? See how that card is crap and little to no deck plays it? It doesn't improve your maths, it doesn't improve your chances of drawing better. If you start your hand with 1 land, 1 street wraith 5 other cards. Will you keep that hand? If you get a 2 hand land, 0 counter, a bunch of cantrip and 1 street wraith. Will you keep that hand?
Serum vision was replaced by ponder, even though the scrying effect was great. Guess what? Blind draw is always always bad. Manamorphose and Street wraith are no exception.

all this to say, don't play Manamorphose. It's your deck obviously, but take this as a friendly comment.

Try instead, if you really want a blind cantrip, 2 repeals. Blind cantrip, but with a decent effect, unlike Manamorphose/SW

Robert

[Dark_Cynic87]

This from Shards:

Stoic Angel
Cost - 1GWU
Creature - Angel
Flying, vigilance
Players can't untap more than one creature during their untap steps.
#199/249 3/4

Decent? Is this useable for us, like against Goblins or the Mirror? It's out of burn range, flies, and swings while maintaining a blocking capability. I realize it costs 4, but so does Mystic Enforcer, Swans, and Dragon. The only thing better than it in mana cost is Trygon Predator, but that's a sideboard card most of the time.

Just thought I'd throw it out there, I honestly don't know if it's playable. If it's already been discussed, I apologize.

Pce,

--DC

[SuckerPunch]

It's stats are not impressive (goyf, hell even Werebear is bigger).

It's casting cost sucks (our curve tops off at 2 Enforcers and even there many opt to only play one). Also, needing to use one mana of each color isn't great either.

The only possible place where it would be playable is agianst weenie swarm decks like Goblins.

That's the only place where it's ability and/or vigilince matters.

Even those deck have tons of ways to kill him, the same cards they use to kill Goyf.

P.S: Manamorphose is a fine card. I'm very happy with it so far.

[Jak]

It's stats are not impressive (goyf, hell even Werebear is bigger).

It's casting cost sucks (our curve tops off at 2 Enforcers and even there many opt to only play one). Also, needing to use one mana of each color isn't great either.

The only possible place where it would be playable is agianst weenie swarm decks like Goblins.

That's the only place where it's ability and/or vigilince matters.

Even those deck have tons of ways to kill him, the same cards they use to kill Goyf.

P.S: Manamorphose is a fine card. I'm very happy with it so far.

3/4 Flying, Vigilance and a nice ability are some pretty good stats.

So adding a blue to the cost makes it harder to cast then Enforcer? If you play this, you would cut Enforcer.

Even against Thresh it is good. Blocks and kills goose, with this out and a Goyf you will always have the advantage, and it still owns Warrens, Goblins, creature.dec.

Yeah, if he can be killed by Swords to Plowshares, lets not run him :rolleyes:

Manamorphose is bad. Weren't you the one saying that you get UU turn 2 all the time and that adding the basic forest is better than a Heath? Then why run this?

[Aggro_zombies]

So adding a blue to the cost makes it harder to cast then Enforcer? If you play this, you would cut Enforcer.
I would think that you would run them as an either/or situation. Stoic Angel is decent against Threshold, but isn't anything spectacular, and is actually rather bad against Thresh versions packing Moon effects and Wastelands unless you specifically configure your mana base to accommodate it. Mystic Enforcer suffers from some the same problems, being in your two off colors, but it does have the advantage of being a lot bigger.

Really, Angel is best in the aggro matchup, and Enforcer in just about everything else. One should be in the sideboard and the other in the maindeck if you wanted to run both.

[Dark_Cynic87]

So it's good enough to be a metagame call. I think I'll pick up a set, Thx.

Pce,

--DC

[Nihil Credo]

Is vigilance and the creature-Orb ability *that* nice compared to Enforcer's pro-black and +3/+2 (conditional, sure, but when I cast Enforcer I either have Threshold or am a card or two at the most away from it)?

Which, in everyone's opinion, is more likely to apply on turn 5+: to stare down a creature sized between 4/4 and 5/6, or black creatures of any size; or to stare down a bunch of tapped small creatures? Or, for that matter, to be the aggressor and needing to finish your opponent as fast as possible?

Pitching to Force is pretty damn nice for an expensive finisher though.

EDIT: Wait, the ability's symmetrical too. Fuck this, the card is terrible against control.

[Dark_Cynic87]

So don't use it and just stick with Enforcers for the control matchup? I still think it's decent against goblins and other swarming decks such as Boros Deck Wins, and way more useable than Swans against everything in general. You have enough between CB (If you run it) or counters and removal to withstand goblins until you can drop it, and then you can fly over what creatures they do have. I play goblins as well, and I have to say that UGw Thresh is most often a favorable matchup. I normally have to go mid-late game, but I can normally beat it.

I don't have that much of a use for Trygon Predator in my meta, but any other flyer that doesn't cost $40 a pop is good (I can't justify buying Drakes for one deck (since I don't play Faerie Stompy) at that price).

[Aggro_zombies]

So don't use it and just stick with Enforcers for the control matchup? I still think it's decent against goblins and other swarming decks such as Boros Deck Wins, and way more useable than Swans against everything in general. You have enough between CB (If you run it) or counters and removal to withstand goblins until you can drop it, and then you can fly over what creatures they do have. I play goblins as well, and I have to say that UGw Thresh is most often a favorable matchup. I normally have to go mid-late game, but I can normally beat it.
Probably the best bet is to run two Enforcers in the main and two Angels in the side, and switch in Angels for Enforcers against Goblins and other aggro decks. Angel is basically a narrow answer card, and as such belongs in the sideboard if it even makes the deck at all.

EDIT: I should add that Swans doesn't make Thresh decks for its general usefulness, but rather because it enables a combo finish.

[Dark_Cynic87]

I ran it (Swans) in a UGr list @ GenCon without the combo finish and it did well, but that's because it turned my burn spells into Ancestrals, giving me way more card advantage than my opponents, letting me hit several goyfs a game, not to mention evasion when they ran out of answers that ran into much more counterspells than should be expected, again thanks to the extra card advantage. When I played against things that they wouldn't be good against, they became 3x slots that were auto-tosses to FoW, letting me keep my other draw and disruption without hesitation.

As to what you said, Zombies, I agree. That's exactly what I meant. I think it will help, because a resolved Vial is a bit of a problem for us.

Personally, I think in a mirror match that Angel has a bit more marit than you give it credit for, even though it's symmetrical. They get to untap Goyf. You get Angel AND Goyf, giving you Goyf-Wall and 3 damage a turn with evasion AND a wall for a Goose each turn (although be careful with that, as burn sux, such as Fire//Ice. Fire would be bad news here, wiping out both Angel and Goyf if you blocked a Goose with Angel). Worst-case scenario, they have a Mystic Enforcer out. StP much?

Pce,

--DC

[Adan]

The ridiculous argument that people make against Manamorphose, that it makes for tougher mulliganing decisions simply doesn't make a lick of sense. If that were the case, we shouldn't have be playing any cantrips. All cantrips make for tougher mulliganing decisions. That's just the nature of a cantrip.

Now THAT is a ridiculous argument. Manamorphose indeed gives you tougher mulligan-decisions and costs GG to cast.

Your cantrip argument becomes redundant because you are neglecting what other cantrips do: They generate MASSIVE cardquality before they draw a card (Ponder, Portent) and therefore allow you to dig for solutions. Manamorphose can't.

Brainstorm is a special case, it turns "useless" cards in hand into useful resources via Fetchlands or sometimes Ponder and Portent (because they can also shuffle crap away, that's the cool thing about them).

If you are looking for additional cantrips, Portent is the way to go but Manamorphose definitely is crap. It's as reasonable as playing Street Wraith...

edit: Damn, reading = t3ch, didn't notice 3 people were faster than me. Anyway, I'm the 4th then.

edit2: Angel - Enforcer debate: I guess the Angel is again hyped like hell, it doesn't prevent the opponent to swing with 8+ Goblins once which is already enough to kill you. If you are looking for a card that somehow hinders Goblins to attack you, stick to Dueling Grounds. It's also tech because Enforcer can still smash his face while they can't harm you because your Goyf kills everything.

[Dark_Cynic87]

edit2: Angel - Enforcer debate: I guess the Angel is again hyped like hell, it doesn't prevent the opponent to swing with 8+ Goblins once which is already enough to kill you. If you are looking for a card that somehow hinders Goblins to attack you, stick to Dueling Grounds. It's also tech because Enforcer can still smash his face while they can't harm you because your Goyf kills everything.

Erg...I should have taken the extra 30 seconds or so to not look like an idiot.

Eh, oh well. Can't be a jenius every day of the year.

Pce,

--DC

EDIT::: What's the commonly played sideboard look like right now?

Xx Trygon Predator
Xx Meddling Mage (I'm assuming this is still used over Runed Halo/Teeg)
Xx Wheel of Sun and Moon///Tormod's Crypt (which for yard hate?)
Xx ??? (What else?)
Xx ??? (Anything?)

Pce 2x,

--DC

[hypeiv]

Ok I feel I have to address this. Grip in the main is more of a meta game choice. In Syracuse I face Painters, Counterbalances, Humility, Survival, etc.. all of which I want gone ASAP.

I have to agree with this in many meta's running enchantment hate main is key. I have shown up to events with Tygon Predator main because I knew countertop would be in full force and did well because of it.

[jazzykat]

Actually I would argue that Street Wraith is better than Manamorphose in Thresh as it cycles for only 2 life, puts a creature in the yard for goyf, and can provide surprise threshhold. That said it doesn't make sense either and all reasons stated above against both cards are valid.

@Suckerpunch: What are you trying to accomplish with Manamorphose?

[Jaiminho]

@Suckerpunch: What are you trying to accomplish with Manamorphose?

Failure.

[SuckerPunch]

I already explained that I'm testing out Manamorphose because it has the ability to let you see Tarmogoyf, FoW, StP at a higher frequency, getting threshold faster, and all with zero net mana cost. Doing what threshold was designed to do, better.

I'm not going to argue with you guys. Like I said, I am only testing out the card, and I've been happy with it so far. If you feel like completely ignoring a card that was practically printed for this deck without even trying it, go right ahead and have a blast.

Just don't come crying to me when the price of Manamorphose doubles to .50 cents a piece and you wish you picked it up while it was still .25 cent common. :tongue:

[Brushwagg]

@Manamorphose: Not even going there. It's trash and does nothing for the deck at all. Can we just drop it?? Maybe he will come around.

@
What's the commonly played sideboard look like right now?

Xx Trygon Predator
Xx Meddling Mage (I'm assuming this is still used over Runed Halo/Teeg)
Xx Wheel of Sun and Moon///Tormod's Crypt (which for yard hate?)
Xx ??? (What else?)
Xx ??? (Anything?)


I really don't think there's a commonly played SB right now. Everybody has different meta games. Not saying certain cards won't show up in several SBs but we have different decks to deal with.

What decks do you see alot of in your meta?

[Omega]

in my very random meta,

i play
3 krosan grip
4 hydroblast
3tormod's crypt
3 pithing needle
1 counterbalance
1 mystic enforcer

Robert

[Aleksandr]

I can even see Trygon Predator as a maindeck material.

- higher creature count then builds with 4+4+2 creatures
- eats CB, CotV, Jitte, and Affinity stuff.
- fixes the hole at cc3 for CB (Vindicate, Hyppie, Deed.. postboard Perish)
- flies. Although threshed Bear has better performance ratio, he many times just stares at opposing Goyf
- pitches to FoW
- blocks Confidant and Hyppie


BTW, someone asked of my Counterspell equipage. Well, even though Thresh is capable of fast finishes, still it is not a storm combo - we win on the fourth turn at the best. As a midrange aggro I like to have a tool to stop Deed, WoG, Humility, Natures Ruin, Confinement, Tombstalker, SGC, Worship and any other stuff that could prevent me from winning and which is also unstoppable by CB, Spell Snare or any other conditional countermagic.
Once again - there are not many times we win in early game, more often we win in midgame. Esp. with StP giving our opponent (sometimes insane: Enforcer, Atog, Tstalker) ammount of life, we need the tools to survive the midgame to successfully accomplish our goal.

OTOH, I would never play CS in tempo builds, be it straight UG (either with Stifle/B2B mana denial plan or Mental_Note_fast_thresh.dec) or more yet UGr (mana denial and burn). Those decks are fast enough to win in the early game (through beats and LD/burn) that they dont need to take care of mid/lategame bombs like those mentioned above (Esp., but not only: WoG, Worship, Humility...)

For black builds, I think that Thoughtseize could be enough protection and CA from Confidant to win the attrition war seals the game. But IDK, I have never played it.. or any other build than white splash, to be precise.

[Adan]

in my very random meta,

i play
3 krosan grip
4 hydroblast
3tormod's crypt
3 pithing needle
1 counterbalance
1 mystic enforcer

Robert

My SB looks liek this:

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 1 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [SHM] Wheel of Sun and Moon

4th Balance: Against Loam, Mirror and everything it's good against...

3rd Needle: I used to play 3 MD, but I wanted to keep the 3rd somehow -> SB

3 Gaddock Teeg: Plays the part of Meddling Mage, shuts off the combo-finishers except Grapeshot and all removal of UWb LS except StoPs.
Was also useful against Solidarity which is nowadayd playing Cryptic Command (it is indeed a gamewinning card).

3 Krosan Grips: Yessir.

4 BEBs: Against random red shenanigans such as Painter, DS, Goblins, Burn, Goyf Sligh and so on. Always useful since red is pretty strong in Legacy.

3 Wheel of Sun and Moon: Now these are a bit risky, I still have the feeling that Tormod's Crypt is more versatiole, but at the Champs I felt like the Leyline-effect was better against Loam (shuts of Loam-engine, Crusher, Dredges) and is even good against Solidarity (I forgot to board them in, though because I suck...).
But feel free to play whatever you want instead of these, but the Sb contains hate against everything i am afraid of:

Landstill, Loam, Mirror, Ichorid and Goblins.

[Omega]

Still not sure on the Gaddock. Last tournament, i hesitated a lot on whether or not i will have them sb.

I think it was a good idea, because ive met more 4c Landstill (using Pernicious deed, EE and STP) than UW landstill (Humility, EE, Wrath, STP)


Robert

[KillemallCFH]

My current SB is the same as Adan's, except Crypt instead of Wheel, and 2 EEs in place of the 1-ofs. EEs provide more outs against Ichorid, and are as effective as CB in the mirror. I don't see too much Loam in my meta; otherwise I would probably opt for the 4th CB in the board.

[Omega]

My SB plan against Landstill is usually

-4 daze
-2 ee
-1 CB

+3 pithing needle (mishra's, waste, deed, EE)
+3 krosan grip (mishra's, deed, ee)
+1 mystic enforcer


against UW landstill
-4 daze, -3cb

+3 krosan grip,
+3 pithing needle
+1 mystic enforcer

Perhaps it is not a good idea to cut CB. But ive always felt that they were pretty much useless in the matchup. Plus, i feel that daze is too easy to play around for them. I would rather play a more agressive game (Dropping early pithing on EE or Deed and go aggro)

Regarding Crypt : I see more Loam than dredge. In fact, theres little to no dredge in my meta. But still, i hate dredge.

Robert

[KillemallCFH]

Boarding out CB against Landstill is a mistake. The ability to counter removal (StP/Diabolic Edict), Card Advantage (Standstill), BS, and occasionally every other card in the deck is huge. Also, if you run Teeg, CB/Top + Teeg is pretty hard for the Landstill (esp. UWx) player to overcome.

[ParkerLewis]

BTW, someone asked of my Counterspell equipage. Well, even though Thresh is capable of fast finishes, still it is not a storm combo - we win on the fourth turn at the best. As a midrange aggro I like to have a tool to stop Deed, WoG, Humility, Natures Ruin, Confinement, Tombstalker, SGC, Worship and any other stuff that could prevent me from winning and which is also unstoppable by CB, Spell Snare or any other conditional countermagic.
Once again - there are not many times we win in early game, more often we win in midgame. Esp. with StP giving our opponent (sometimes insane: Enforcer, Atog, Tstalker) ammount of life, we need the tools to survive the midgame to successfully accomplish our goal.

OTOH, I would never play CS in tempo builds, be it straight UG (either with Stifle/B2B mana denial plan or Mental_Note_fast_thresh.dec) or more yet UGr (mana denial and burn). Those decks are fast enough to win in the early game (through beats and LD/burn) that they dont need to take care of mid/lategame bombs like those mentioned above (Esp., but not only: WoG, Worship, Humility...)

For black builds, I think that Thoughtseize could be enough protection and CA from Confidant to win the attrition war seals the game. But IDK, I have never played it.. or any other build than white splash, to be precise.

I get your point. I'm just saying, I'm pretty definite this card is the reason you're having "troubles" with 18 lands and can't go down lower, while other lists run very smooth on 17. And even with 18 lands, I'm still doubting the capacity to regularly keep UU open to make it useful - a strategy that Thresh is NOT build to support, because with such a low land count, it means you're willing to really NOT play your threats for it.

I can't see how a split (2/2 or maybe more given the freed land slot available by going down to 17 lands) of Needles / Oring couldn't fulfill your needs. They both stop most of the troublesome permanents you mentioned like Deed, Humility, SGC. And they don't force you to keep UU open at all times if you want them to be of any use.

[Nihil Credo]

Seconded on Killemall. Start with the removal first: since Swords and Ring are pretty much only for Factory, Dragon and Humility, Needle and Grip do the same job much better.

[Adan]

Seconded on Killemall. Start with the removal first: since Swords and Ring are pretty much only for Factory, Dragon and Humility, Needle and Grip do the same job much better.

Yessir!

My plan is usually:

- 4 StoP, 3 Predict, 1 Daze

+3 Grip
+1 Pithing Needle
+3 Gaddock Teeg
+1 CBalance

I don't really need StoP when you can hardlock UWb LS with Gaddock and CB-Top. If you can assemble that, play Needle on Decree and the victory is yours.

[mossivo1986]

Boarding out CB against Landstill is a mistake. The ability to counter removal (StP/Diabolic Edict), Card Advantage (Standstill), BS, and occasionally every other card in the deck is huge. Also, if you run Teeg, CB/Top + Teeg is pretty hard for the Landstill (esp. UWx) player to overcome.

as a 4 color landstill player i would like to say your wrong. CB is useless in the landstill matchup. Ive played this matchup too many times to count and I can only think of a select few games I was already loosing when counterbalance had any effect on the board. The idea of threshhold isn't to create a prison for the landstill player to play around, and then beat him up while hes doing it.

Because you'd be suprised how fast landstill can get out of prison locks, ask any armageddon stax player :)

Anyways teeg isn't going to help you anymore inless your already winning. Thats not to say take it out of the deck, but atleast get your facts straight as far as what its good matchups are "combo" and what its bad ones are "aggro" and its mediocre matchups are "control"

[Dark_Cynic87]

The decks I see a lot:

Ichorid
Dragon Stompy
4-c Landstill (How do I WIN???)

Decks I play against some:
Rgb Goblins
FT
Spring Tide
UWx Landstill
CounterSliver

That's how it goes. Mainly concerned about the first three. Rgb Goblins just got a lot better with the Dueling Grounds just in the little testing I've done since told to play it over looking to the new Stoic Angel for saving myself.

Right now I have my SB at this:

3x Armageddon
2x BEB
2x Hydroblast
3x Krosan Grip
2x Dueling Grounds
3x Tormod's Crypt

Maybe it's not optimal, but IDK what to do, really...I don't see a lot of you using Armageddon, but it's all I've been able to come up with against Landstill.

Pce,

--DC

[Omega]

but what about UGBW landstill? It is very popular in my meta

it runs a full set of Tarmogoyf and 2-3 Tombstalker alongside Mishra's

i think it is a poor decision to remove the STP against that particular Landstill

Robert

[Mister Agent]

as a 4 color landstill player i would like to say your wrong. CB is useless in the landstill matchup. Ive played this matchup too many times to count and I can only think of a select few games I was already loosing when counterbalance had any effect on the board. The idea of threshhold isn't to create a prison for the landstill player to play around, and then beat him up while hes doing it.

Counterbalance will always be considered as a threat against any control deck no matter how you look at it. Considering the card itself is a format defining counterspell and there are a ton of decks that incorporate counterbalance in their disrupting suite. I would also like to note that threshold incorporates a series of threats, cantrips, countermagic and other utility spells to make counterbalance more deadly then otherwise.



Anyways teeg isn't going to help you anymore inless your already winning. Thats not to say take it out of the deck, but atleast get your facts straight as far as what its good matchups are "combo" and what its bad ones are "aggro" and its mediocre matchups are "control"

This isn't precisely true considering threshold can usually find their tools faster then landstill can by the number of efficient cantrips it runs. By doing so the threshold player can probably play an early countertop and then follow up the disruption proceedure with a gaddock teeg or vice versa. Of course, I imagine playing a sequence of additional utility spells(e.g. krosan grip and pithing needle) will help the decision process go along more smoothly.

[KillemallCFH]

as a 4 color landstill player i would like to say your wrong. CB is useless in the landstill matchup. Ive played this matchup too many times to count and I can only think of a select few games I was already loosing when counterbalance had any effect on the board. The idea of threshhold isn't to create a prison for the landstill player to play around, and then beat him up while hes doing it.

Because you'd be suprised how fast landstill can get out of prison locks, ask any armageddon stax player :)

Anyways teeg isn't going to help you anymore inless your already winning. Thats not to say take it out of the deck, but atleast get your facts straight as far as what its good matchups are "combo" and what its bad ones are "aggro" and its mediocre matchups are "control"I was talking more about UWx Landstill. Deed makes the matchup completely different, and makes CB and Teeg a lot less effective. In the absence of Deed, however, Teeg can stop every mass removal spell (WoG, Humility, EE, Disk), while CB stops the rest. I know Thresh isn't meant to play the prison role, but you can't realistic rely on simply outracing Landstill; they will stabilize. CB/Top + Teeg gives you a window of opportunity to win.

Even against Landstill w/ Deed, I'd keep in CB, as it forces you to have a Deed if you want to continue your game plan (that being to stop my game plan, by means of StP/Edict, Counterspell, Standstill, etc.), and with 5 3cc cards postboard, it isn't outside the realm of possibility to be able to CB a Deed.

[Brushwagg]

In the absence of Deed,

Ehh.. Deed can be dealt with. I totally agree with you on this. Teeg is a huge pain for Landstill.

[Adan]

as a 4 color landstill player i would like to say your wrong. CB is useless in the landstill matchup.

So what do you do if I have CB-Top out and play Needle on Pernicious Deed? Which spell can you resolve except for Fact or Fiction (and Humility if played)?

Counterbalance shuts off removal, CQ and CA (Brainstorm and Standstill) and all other Counters (Counterspell and Stifle).


but what about UGBW landstill? It is very popular in my meta

it runs a full set of Tarmogoyf and 2-3 Tombstalker alongside Mishra's

i think it is a poor decision to remove the STP against that particular Landstill

Robert

Against this type of Landstill you definitely keep them in since 4color Landstill has only got them and 4-6 Manlands to win. Being able to handle some of them slows them down seriously. You don't have to worry about Decree of Justice, though.

[Whit3 Ghost]

Because a lot of 5c discussion has gone down a few pages back, I figured I might as well share my thoughts on the deck. I decided to play it in the MTG Salvation Online tournament because I had some amount of experience in playing it in test games. So far, I've 1-2ed both Control Slaver and 4c Agro Loam and beat TES 2-1. Here are my issues with the deck

Yixlid Jailer is fucking awful. Both matches I lost were due to him not being Tormod's Crypt.
My draws were bad. Really bad. I got manascrewed off of a mull to 6 game 3 against agro loam and he proceeded to draw 3 Tarmogoyfs and a Swords to Plowshares. He also managed to draw both his Blood Moons in his opening hand with mana to cast them game 2. Against Control Slaver I couldn't find a 2cc card to counter his Explosives both before and after a fetchland.
I hate how this deck has no way to stop recursion outside of Jailer and Countertop. Ruins + EE wrecks you.
Lands are an issue as well. With no Stifles or Wastelands, the effects of lands can be a serious issue.
Pyroclasm. Seriously, that card has been absolute dreck for me every time I've ran it. It should be cut down to 2 for more Blue Blasts.
Blue Blasts: They are awesome and should be a 4 of in the board.
I did not have a keepable hand with a Counterbalance in it. Just figured I'd mention.
This deck is bad at going Agro, which sometimes has to happen due to mulligens.
The manabase is fine, surprisingly. I don't think I got colorscrewed once.
Enforcer has not earned his slot yet. Honestly, I'd like to expirament with Vindicate, O-Ring or Grip in that slot. 6 maindecked removal spells sounds really good, especially with this deck running infinite draw spells to find threats.I think that's everything.

[Obfuscate Freely]

You have to build your own sideboard, as with any deck. Yixlid Jailer was in our board because it's the most effective card against Ichorid. If that isn't a top priority for you, cut the card for something else.

I'm not sure what you mean about lands being an issue, but I assume it's a minor point. It isn't as if every deck has to play Wasteland.

Pyroclasm being "dreck" is kind of bizarre. If that's true, why do you want to run even two? Perhaps you don't see Goblins or Ichorid often enough to justify the card.

What makes the deck "bad at going aggro?"

I am always confused by people's lack of enthusiasm for Mystic Enforcer. It's such a fantastic trump card for lots of board situations (much moreso than pinpoint removal like Vindicate or O Ring). The card has won me so many games, and it certainly helps the deck "go aggro" better.

[undone]

Lands are an issue as well. With no Stifles or Wastelands, the effects of lands can be a serious issue.

Needle is your best friend.


Yixlid Jailer is fucking awful. Both matches I lost were due to him not being Tormod's Crypt.

Jailer is for ichy crypt is for the rest.


I hate how this deck has no way to stop recursion outside of Jailer and Countertop. Ruins + EE wrecks you.

Once again, needle is your best friend.

To the rest I cant atest but sounds like failure to shuffle/have luck that doesnt suck.


This deck is bad at going Agro, which sometimes has to happen due to mulligens.

Disrupt THEN kill. Dont even put a threat on the board unless its combo untill you have worn them out/have counter defences.


I am always confused by people's lack of enthusiasm for Mystic Enforcer. It's such a fantastic trump card for lots of board situations (much moreso than pinpoint removal like Vindicate or O Ring). The card has won me so many games, and it certainly helps the deck "go aggro" better.

I have found that in that slot I would rather have shackles or hoofprints 90% of the time. In any matchup where enforcer is good shackles is better, in any other matchup (and some of those) hoofprints is better. Shackles costs 1 less, the best function of enforcer is enforcer has CMC 4 counter top, that is the only reason I would play it over other cards in that slot.

[Whit3 Ghost]

You have to build your own sideboard, as with any deck. Yixlid Jailer was in our board because it's the most effective card against Ichorid. If that isn't a top priority for you, cut the card for something else.

I'm not sure what you mean about lands being an issue, but I assume it's a minor point. It isn't as if every deck has to play Wasteland.

Pyroclasm being "dreck" is kind of bizarre. If that's true, why do you want to run even two? Perhaps you don't see Goblins or Ichorid often enough to justify the card.

What makes the deck "bad at going aggro?"

I am always confused by people's lack of enthusiasm for Mystic Enforcer. It's such a fantastic trump card for lots of board situations (much moreso than pinpoint removal like Vindicate or O Ring). The card has won me so many games, and it certainly helps the deck "go aggro" better.
Eh, I agree. I sort of wanted to test it using your card choices though. Otherwise it would have looked like my Thrash sideboard and I didn't want to do that.

I meant like Ruins/EE, Crucible/Factory, Maze of Ith ect. Some of them are at least half stoppable via Krosan Grip, but I don't like the lack of Pithing Needle in your sideboard.

The "going Aggro" comment had to do with the fact that you don't really have much reach. Sometimes your draws don't fit into the control role and have to play guys and try to ride them out. This deck feels worse at that than other Threshold lists. I am not saying that the deck doesn't switch roles well, as it does.

Pyroclasm as any more than a 2 of has made me hate the space it takes up in the board. The only matchups you want it in are Goblins, Ichorid and Combo. Against Combo and Ichorid they are secondary to the cards needed to stopping them from going off.

I think that Goyf is starting to make board stalemates less common, and that is where Enforcer really shines.

Sorry if I missed anything.

[Shtriga]

Rafiq of the Many 1(G)(W)(U) - Human Knight - 3/4

Exalted:

Whenever a creature you control attacks alone it gains Double Strike EOT


would this be a good inclusion? it makes your goyfs and geese stupid. it would compete with enforcer though

[undone]

This card is better then enforcer, it is BLUE so its force pitchable.

[Aggro_zombies]

This card is better then enforcer, it is BLUE so its force pitchable.
You're kidding, right?

This card and Enforcer are not comparable. Enforcer has evasion and protection from non-StP removal, and can block and kill Tarmogoyfs on its own. This will most likely only trade with Goyfs, and then only when attacking. It also does nothing for you if you're not on the defensive - when you want to end the game by attacking with multiple creatures, this is infinitely worse than Mystic Enforcer because, again, of the lack of evasion and this time the lack of any bonuses.

Enforcer may not pitch to Force, but it's sure as hell better than this.

[KillemallCFH]

What Aggro said. This isn't even comparable to Enforcer in terms of being able to end the game.

[undone]

You're kidding, right?

Lets look at this.

8 damage a turn vs 6 with evasion.

This means its close to even, and unlike enforcer when he citp his goyfie friend swings for 12. This is why he > enforcer. He lets you swing INTO Dnaughts with a goyf. Seriously he is good because the he deals more then enforcer does on an open board.

There are several cases enforcer is better in but usualy hoofprints is better there even though its slower, this card is litteraly a "This card can get there all by itself" card. Its alot like enforcer although it runs into anything.

The card also unlike enforcer is pitchable to force. This is HUGE.

[Adan]

Lets look at this.

8 damage a turn vs 6 with evasion.

This means its close to even, and unlike enforcer when he citp his goyfie friend swings for 12. This is why he > enforcer. He lets you swing INTO Dnaughts with a goyf. Seriously he is good because the he deals more then enforcer does on an open board.

There are several cases enforcer is better in but usualy hoofprints is better there even though its slower, this card is litteraly a "This card can get there all by itself" card. Its alot like enforcer although it runs into anything.

The card also unlike enforcer is pitchable to force. This is HUGE.

This is still a suboptimal cardchoice. You actually always want to swing with multiple creatures to deal a lot of damage. Swingin with 1 creature that can be made redundant by a recurring Squee, well, it's not good.

Swinging into Dreadnoughts is also a bas compairison since the Goyfs have to be AT LEAST 6/7 (not so easy to accomplish), but the thing is that they don't need to have Double Strike when they are 6/7 as they can race the Dreadnought. Mystic Enforcer does the same, but even better as he can simply fly over Dreadnoughts.

Pitching to FoW is a aspect you can neglect since Mystic Enforcer wins games. I usually shuffle him back into the library with Brainstorm-Fetch if he is of no use and it's just fine as it is.

I also don't like the UGW1 Manacost.

[Jaiminho]

I also don't like the UGW1 Manacost.

Not any harder to get than 2GW, unless, somehow, you got yourself under a Moon and only fetched Plains and Forest, but no Island.

[undone]

6/7

5/6 you mean, exaulted affects your other dudes.

5/6 is not hard to do at all, 1 artifact or enchantment.


Pitching to FoW is a aspect you can neglect since Mystic Enforcer wins games. I usually shuffle him back into the library with Brainstorm-Fetch if he is of no use and it's just fine as it is.

There are times you cant find brainstorm to shuffle it, or simply dont want to pitch something (Counter balance, predict or X where X is a utility spell)

This creature also unlike enforcer has a higher total damage because it immediately impacts the board, not a turn later, geese swing for 8, goyfs swing for 10-12.. I mean this card is made of win.

HOWEVER I could see going a 1/1 split with enforcer/this.

[Adan]

5/6 you mean, exaulted affects your other dudes.

5/6 is not hard to do at all, 1 artifact or enchantment.

What sense does this make? First you say you can attack into Dreadnoughts. In that case they have to be 6/7 to trade with the Nought.
A lone Goyf with 5/6 Double Strike attacking into Dreadnought is... the most stupid thing you can do? Oo


There are times you cant find brainstorm to shuffle it, or simply dont want to pitch something (Counter balance, predict or X where X is a utility spell)

If I had the choice between pitching Enforcer (again: the 6/6 Flying beater!) to FoW or Predict to FoW, I will definiteley choose Predict anyways.


This creature also unlike enforcer has a higher total damage because it immediately impacts the board, not a turn later, geese swing for 8, goyfs swing for 10-12.. I mean this card is made of win.

No it doesn't since it has got a shabby 3/4 body itself and can be killed by everything like Shriekmaw and Flametounge Kavu.

And you actually swing with ONE Goose or ONE Goyf. As soon as you attack with more creatures it will do nothing, thus the "damage-potential" vanishes.
By the way, Goose won't swing for 8, it would theoretically swing for 6.

[undone]

What sense does this make? First you say you can attack into Dreadnoughts. In that case they have to be 6/7 to trade with the Nought.
A lone Goyf with 5/6 Double Strike attacking into Dreadnought is... the most stupid thing you can do? Oo

Read exaulted.


If I had the choice between pitching Enforcer (again: the 6/6 Flying beater!) to FoW or Predict to FoW, I will definiteley choose Predict anyways.

Bad example, but the point stands, pitching CB or a 2nd force is worse then pitching them.

Options are why this deck is good.




No it doesn't since it has got a shabby 3/4 body itself and can be killed by everything like Shriekmaw and Flametounge Kavu.

And you actually swing with ONE Goose or ONE Goyf. As soon as you attack with more creatures it will do nothing, thus the "damage-potential" vanishes.
By the way, Goose won't swing for 8, it would theoretically swing for 6.

Once again read exaulted.

Also the above costs as much or more mana then this and are sorc speed. Guess what Daze exists, and the differances is he already impacted the game, the turn he comes down he can act as a high damage buffer.

[Adan]

Ah. Exalted gives a +1/+1 bonus. Hm, ok, that's somehow cool.

[Obfuscate Freely]

Read exaulted.


Once again read exaulted.
If he reads it, will you learn how to spell it?


Rafiq is interesting, but I don't know if it can replace Enforcer. A 3/4 is such a weak blocker, so the card is poor if you are on the defensive. On the other hand, Rafiq can be pretty impressive on the offensive, but his value actually plummets if you want to apply pressure beyond that of a single attacking creature. The lack of evasion also hinders Rafiq's ability to force through what damage he does deal.

Enforcer seems significantly better in several matchups, such as Goblins, Survival, and (obviously) Suicide variants.

[undone]

If he reads it, will you learn how to spell it?


Rafiq is interesting, but I don't know if it can replace Enforcer. A 3/4 is such a weak blocker, so the card is poor if you are on the defensive. On the other hand, Rafiq can be pretty impressive on the offensive, but his value actually plummets if you want to apply pressure beyond that of a single attacking creature. The lack of evasion also hinders Rafiq's ability to force through what damage he does deal.

Enforcer seems significantly better in several matchups, such as Goblins, Survival, and (obviously) Suicide variants.

1) Touche'

2) Enforcer is better in many matchups, but there are just as many matchups where rafiq is > enforcer.

Combo (Force pitching+ faster clock)
Landstill (makes geese GET THERE)
threshold mirror (Your dudes ALL beat there dudes.)

[Aggro_zombies]

1) Touche'

2) Enforcer is better in many matchups, but there are just as many matchups where rafiq is > enforcer.

Combo (Force pitching+ faster clock)
Landstill (makes geese GET THERE)
threshold mirror (Your dudes ALL beat there dudes.)
To quote you, let's look at this.

You said eight damage a turn versus six with evasion. Eight damage a turn to their recurring Mishra's Factory is really going to win you the game, alright. Yup, I can see it now: the Mishra's Factory will get monkeystomped into the ground.

Right before it comes back with Crucible.

See, the thing is, eight damage loses its luster when it's eight damage to a blocker, and there are many blockers in the format that can trade with this (lol eight damage per turn for one turn), outright kill it, or don't care because they can recur themselves. I'd take six damage to the face over eight damage to a blocker any day.

In the Threshold mirror, you might create some unfavorable blocks for them, but basically they use any one of a number of potential removal spells on this guy, kill him, and get back to business as usual. (Also, it's "their," not "there." "There" is used to designate a specific place or location while "their" is a possessive term indicating group ownership. Just thought I'd say this because the mistakes with it's/its, there/their/they're, and the like drive me nuts.) That, or they counter him. Well, that's true of Enforcer as well. Enforcer does dodge black removal, though, is out of burn range once Threshed, and can block and kill almost anything in the format, with a few exceptions. This is not quite out of burn range (combat damage and a Fire//Ice or Bolt will send him packing), blocks and kills not much but blocks and gets killed by a lot, and is legendary. Multiple Enforcers is fucking sexy, multiple Knights...not so much.

As for pitching to Force: Most of your deck is blue. One or two additional blue cards is not going to make a statistically significant difference when looking at the number of cards on average per opening hand available to pitch to Force. (EDIT: Also, pitching a win condition to Force is not hot except in the most desperate situations. Since you'll only want two or so of these, losing one to Force is a bit of a big deal.)

As for Landstill: Geese get there because they can't be hit by targeted removal. This does die to targeted removal, which means your Geese (or Goose, since it only gets a benefit when attacking alone) are about as good as when you run Enforcer instead. Also, they still die to Dreadnought (which, coincidentally, can't block Enforcer).

As for combo: Faster clock is moot when you realize that basically all combo decks aim to win before you get four mana. If you get to four mana and they still haven't gone off, you're probably winning. Therefore, Enforcer and this are win-mores in this matchup.

So basically, Rafiq < Enforcer in all but a few corner cases or situations where you're facing ungodly amounts of graveyard hate (a corner case in this day and age).

He has better art, though.

[Shugyosha]

If your opponent has two Goyfs and you only have a Goyf and an Enforcer the situation is pretty much a stalemate. You can fly over him but he can attack with his Goyfs. The damage race is favored because of the Enforcer though.

Now imagine you have a Goyf out and play a Rafiq. You can instantly attack with an exalted Goyf. Your 5/6 Double Striker against two 4/5 Goyfs? The enemy cannot even kill your creature with double blocking! So he will take 10 or chumb. If he takes 10 he cannot swing back during his turn because he won't survive another exalted attack.

Even removal on Rafiq after attacker declaration does nothing to change the +1/+1 Double Strike. Stifle hits it, but only one of the two abilities. SoRafiq is quite a house when it comes down to break up board stalemates.

[undone]

Like I said he has his uses, I would play 1 and 1 split between rafiq and X where X is enforcer/hoofprints.

There are things hes good at(Breaking stalemates/getting extra damage in for instance vs landstill), and things hes not so good at(blocking) so he will probably be in some builds of the deck.

[b4r0n]

There are things hes good at(Breaking stalemates/getting extra damage in for instance vs landstill), and things hes not so good at(blocking) so he will probably be in some builds of the deck.

Rafiq seems okay, sure. But I'd still prefer Enforcer, if only for the evasion and the huge body. Even against Landstill and the mirror, I feel like Enforcer is just better; Rafiq might get in for 2 more damage or make Goyf a bigger threat, but I feel like the guarantee of 6 damage is just a better bet. Plus, in the mirror, Enforcer is a bomb both offensively and defensively, allowing you to either mount a significant offensive or allow you to stablilize. Rafiq simply can't match that.

[undone]

Plus, in the mirror, Enforcer is a bomb both offensively and defensively, allowing you to either mount a significant offensive or allow you to stablilize. Rafiq simply can't match that.

Didnt we go over this?

In the case where they have double your creature board position, you cast a creature that litteraly wins the game right on that turn when he resolves, he doesnt wait a turn to "block" he lets some one get in there and win the game in 1 swing (possibly 2) he requires careful play, but I still think a 1 of inclusion is a good idea over 1 enforcer.

[b4r0n]

Didnt we go over this?

In the case where they have double your creature board position, you cast a creature that litteraly wins the game right on that turn when he resolves, he doesnt wait a turn to "block" he lets some one get in there and win the game in 1 swing (possibly 2) he requires careful play, but I still think a 1 of inclusion is a good idea over 1 enforcer.

So if they have 2 Goyfs and you have 1, you'd rather have Rafiq than Enforcer? Sure. But that's an extremely narrow scenario. Plus, even in that situation, you can often race with Enforcer or at least deter an attack until you find removal or another Goyf. Winning the game at that exact moment doesn't seem worth having a sub-par finisher in other matchups.

Simply put, I'm just not buying your argument. Rafiq doesn't seem significantly better than Enforcer. I mean, I can see how he might be better in specific situations. But I just don't think he's better overall.

[ParkerLewis]

So if they have 2 Goyfs and you have 1, you'd rather have Rafiq than Enforcer? Sure. But that's an extremely narrow scenario. Plus, even in that situation, you can often race with Enforcer or at least deter an attack until you find removal or another Goyf. Winning the game at that exact moment doesn't seem worth having a sub-par finisher in other matchups.

Simply put, I'm just not buying your argument. Rafiq doesn't seem significantly better than Enforcer. I mean, I can see how he might be better in specific situations. But I just don't think he's better overall.

You beat me to it. My thoughts exactly (and pretty much everyone else's, too).

[Captain Hammer]

So... Bant Charm yes or no?

IMO, it's better than Oblivion Ring for the below reasons...

1.) Pitches to FoW

2.) Your opponent can't get the card back like they can just by blowing up O. Ring

3.) It's an instant.

4.) It counters instants (so literally, the only relevent spells it can't get rid of are enchantments).

5.) You can leave mana open till the end of your opponents turn and then if they give you no instants worth countering, you can instead get rid of an artifact or creature.

[KillemallCFH]

4.) It counters instants (so literally, the only relevent spells it can't get rid of are enchantments).Unfortunately, that's a pretty important point. Humility, Confinement, Survival, etc. area all pretty common O-Ring targets. Also, Charm is harder on the mana base, which is relevant against Moon/Waste (though I guess if you run no basic plains, this would be better against Magus, since you can float mana/cast it on Magus). It probably deserves testing in that slot, but right now I'm leaning towards O-Ring. I guess having 2-3 more late-game counter-counters could be nice, though.

[undone]

How good or bad is Rhox War Monk. seems like potential SB for burn and goblins. Thoughts?

[raharu]

How good or bad is Rhox War Monk. seems like potential SB for burn and goblins. Thoughts?
Too small, doesn't have any relevant outside of a few narrow matches, etc. I don't like it, but ofc that's just hypothetical. I presume we'll have to wait until it is finally printed to have a final verdict.

[Guy I Don't Know]

Why is there such an argument over rafiq or mystic enforcer, they are both subpar borderline playable cards that have benefits in certain metas.

Also, I would try out sower of temptation, it is pitchable to FOW and is surprisingly good in my experience.

[Captain Hammer]

What do you mean?

Neither Mystic Enforcer nor Rafiq is subpar by any means.

This is an AGGRO control deck. You can't just keep cutting away creatures and more creatures and still have enough aggro to win games.

You do have to beat face with something afterall. Say they extripate away the Goyfs and have Factories or some 4 toughness dude to block Mongoose, what're you going to do.

You can play all the pinpoint removal you point, but at some point, you'll need to kill them.

I do think a case can be made for both Mystic Enforcer and Rafiq.

Mystic Enforcer flys and is invulnerable to most removal thanks to pro black and being out of burn range.

But the fact that Rafiq is not dependent on the yard shouldn't be ignored. Gravehate is everywhere these days. So to have a threat that doesn't care about it is neat.

[Nihil Credo]

But the fact that Rafiq is not dependent on the yard shouldn't be ignored. Gravehate is everywhere these days. So to have a threat that doesn't care about it is neat.
No good player has sided in dedicated graveyard hate (Leyline, Crypt) against Thresh at least since May 2007.

Relic of Progenitus might change this, but it's too early to say.

[Captain Hammer]

It already has.

I've been playing Relic as a maindeck proxy 1 of in every deck of mine that plays Trinket Mage.

Unlike Crypt, Relic lets your Mage kill a Goyf and live, and unlike Crypt, at the very worst, Relic cycles for 2. So I can pretty much guarentee you that Relic will become a staple of the Trinket Mage suite from now on.

Just something to think about.

[Aleksandr]

No good player has sided in dedicated graveyard hate (Leyline, Crypt) against Thresh at least since May 2007.

Relic of Progenitus might change this, but it's too early to say.


__________________________
Tormods Crypt :0:



Artifact TSP


[Tap + sac]:
Any number of Nimble Mongooses
target player controls get -2/-2.
Any number of Mystic Enforcers
target player controls get -3/-3.

(c): WotC 2006
_____________________________




I do play Crypt against threshold. Oops, I am bad player! Time to shift to Yugoh...

[raharu]

Fucking Elves! What's the game plan here? I'm playing UGbw thresh and my problem is a monoG elves list that I built out of my friend's spare cards (that plays said Elves deck almost exclusively). It's a serious pain in the ass, I have to play against it often, and while the match isn't unwinable, by any means, but it's not comfortable by the same token, and that... annoys me.

The Elves list, for reference:


Creatures: 30
4x Lanowar Elves
3x Seeker of Skybreak
3x Wren's Run Vanquisher
2x Thornweald Archers
4x Silhana Ledgewalker
3x Timberwatch Elf
4x Imperious Prefect
3x Elvish Champion
3x Jagged Scar Archers (wtf Mystic Enforcer, wtf?)
3x Sylvan Messenger
3x Immaculate Magistrate
2x Heedless One

4x other creature-jank I can't remember (the list is 'sur-la-tete', if you will).

3x Concordant Crossroads

lands: 16
12x Forest
2x Wirewood Lodge
2x Lanowar Reborn

Why is this difficult?

[KillemallCFH]

Why is this difficult?Because Thresh has always had problems with swarms of creatures. Granted, Goyf alleviated these problems somewhat, but decks like elves can simply shit out way more guys than you can deal with. In you're playing black E. Plague is always a good SB option. Dueling Grounds can also put them to a halt, as well as Worship (if you land a creature, obviously).

[raharu]

Because Thresh has always had problems with swarms of creatures. Granted, Goyf alleviated these problems somewhat, but decks like elves can simply shit out way more guys than you can deal with.

Well, I'm aware of that, but I find the Elves match a bit harder than the Goblins MU, honestly, as there are fewer creatures I have to deal with. Mana Denial is a bitch, but still, they don't have 17 creatures that will seriously fuck up my day. It feels like the deck wants 8 more removal. wtf.


E. Plague, Dueling Grounds, Worship.

Thanks. I'll see how Plague works, although I'm worried that it'll be a bit narrow. Maybe it's time to go 5c like IHM has been telling me, but I HATE fucking City of Brass. srsly.

[Omega]

Dueling grounds look like a very decent SB cards against fast aggro deck.

Worship is too expensive imo

Usually, my strategy against them is to go full aggro mode and to counter every elves that actually do something (imperious perfect, timberwatch, etc.) and win with multiple goyfs. Granted this doesnt work everytime, but it is the best i can do.

After SB (i do not play Dueling grounds), some Pithing needle comes. EE can come in too, but it is too slow against them, usually.

It is still a MU that i can ignore. It doesnt see alot of play due to its poor performance against Combo and against heavery control (wrath, deed, humility, etc.)

Robert

[b4r0n]

Dueling grounds look like a very decent SB cards against fast aggro deck.

I agree. Unless you want to splash black for Plague or red for Clasm, Dueling Grounds is probably your best option. They can still win through that (Timberwatch, ugh), but at least it'll slow them down. EE and Needle seem decent too.

[Ophidian]

1 timely Perish will crush them, and then you lock em out under Counter/Top


I, unfortunately don't have the benefit of running black in my UGw Thresh so I'm stuck with Hail Storm, and even with a well-timed Hail Storm, you can still win the match. Just remember that in the "Who's the Beatdown?" mindset, you are the control deck, so just play it like that.

[Omega]

Onto another subject

what strategy can we develop against ITF.
A friend of mine just built it and i playtested some games (without SB) and my deck couldnt handle his in the late game, or when he establishes loam/recurrence (ruins/volrath)

Would you say that the best strategy is to counter their CB at all cost and go fast aggro? (That's what i tried, but it didn't work quite well because of Pernicious deed and Intuition)

I know for sure the deck needs 1 successful Intuition to set up his engine. So i guess it is a must counter too.

BUT THEN, there are also Deed and EE. The deck simply doesn't have enough answer...


Any help would be appreciated!

Robert

[jazzykat]

ITF is sick against you. They have a lot of relevant cards that curve at 3 where you don't frequently reach with CB, and they have plenty of 1 and 2 CC which will stuff you if they get the early CB.

Lastly, in the later game they can set EE at some retardedly high number and unless you can FoW your daze and CB do nothing.

As an avid ITF player my experience has been... You Lose.

UGR Thrash has a much better chance (Blood Moon if you're saucy, or just the mana disruption + stifles) and using Thread of Disloyalty can steal a game.

[Adan]

ITF is sick against you. They have a lot of relevant cards that curve at 3 where you don't frequently reach with CB, and they have plenty of 1 and 2 CC which will stuff you if they get the early CB.

Lastly, in the later game they can set EE at some retardedly high number and unless you can FoW your daze and CB do nothing.

As an avid ITF player my experience has been... You Lose.

UGR Thrash has a much better chance (Blood Moon if you're saucy, or just the mana disruption + stifles) and using Thread of Disloyalty can steal a game.

I agree here. Pithing Needle might be a good tool against ITF, but the problem is their quantity of cards that will screw you as well as the flexibility ITF has through Intuition which allows him to play around Needle easily.

There are just too many cards that will break your neck:

2 Engineered Explosives, 3 Pernicious Deed, 4 Counterbalance, 4 Swords to Plowshares, 4 Intuition, Volrath's Stronghold, Academy Ruins, 1-2 Vedalken Shackles...

All these cards have to be shut off somehow, but that is obviously impossible.

And sometimes, people might also play some strange random cards that will suddenly rape you out of nothing, right jazzykat?

(We once met each other on a random MWS encounter and played the mirrormatch - by the way it's like you are playing after the 3rd heart-attack - and he played Haunting Echoes. I still won that game, but I was still intimidated like hell).

[jazzykat]

And sometimes, people might also play some strange random cards that will suddenly rape you out of nothing, right jazzykat?

(We once met each other on a random MWS encounter and played the mirrormatch - by the way it's like you are playing after the 3rd heart-attack - and he played Haunting Echoes. I still won that game, but I was still intimidated like hell).

Now Adan... what is so random about echoes :P That was a great game which I was so happy to have echoed you with was totally OK with losing!

You know...before Etched Oracle (who is super fantastic), mostly because of his synergy with Stronghold/Ruins + CB and non the STPable solution it was my favorite out of nowhere YOU LOSE card.

[Adan]

Now Adan... what is so random about echoes :P That was a great game which I was so happy to have echoed you with was totally OK with losing!

haha, I know that. The main thing is to annoy people to death, even though you are losing (that's why I am always thinking about playing MUC, lol).


You know...before Etched Oracle (who is super fantastic), mostly because of his synergy with Stronghold/Ruins + CB and non the STPable solution it was my favorite out of nowhere YOU LOSE card.

Yes, Etched Oracle is also a problem as you won't be able to handle it. I'd also say it's a bit similar to MUC's Rainbow Efreet. If it would be removed or die anyways, it can be sacrificed and recurred via Strionghold or Ruins. And that's not even CDA since Oracle generates a cardadvantage of +2 cards which compensates the "skipped" drawphase. That is just sick.

[raharu]

1 timely Perish will crush them, and then you lock em out under Counter/Top


I, unfortunately don't have the benefit of running black in my UGw Thresh so I'm stuck with Hail Storm, and even with a well-timed Hail Storm, you can still win the match. Just remember that in the "Who's the Beatdown?" mindset, you are the control deck, so just play it like that.

Errrr, no. Perish is essentially a WoG in that match, which would fucking suck for me, as I only run 10 creatures in the 75 (Enforcers occasionally becomes MD Pithing Needles), and they have >9000 ways to restock. Imperious Perfect doesn't care about CB and can build a board all by itself, Immaculate Magistrate, while lackluster on a small board, is still a problem (Perfect + Magistrate - removal = no fun times at all, even if it's just the two). Also, note that Sylvan Messenger is stupider in this build than Goblin Ringleader is in Goblins (23 lands + whatever non-goblins in the MD relative to 16 lands and 3 Concordant Crossroads in this particular Elves build. While not a large margin, he averages ~2.733(repeating) cards off of stupid Messenger). They simply have more resources. Perish, I can assure you, is certainly not the answer. Luckily, CB actually is of help though, stopping the random Deathtouch bullshit dead in it's tracks. A board of Tarmogoyf and a Nimble Mongoose staring at a Vanquisher wearing a Graft token from Lanowar Reborn is... well, it's pretty damn gay, to say the least.



Tangent: I have 3 slots that are currently occupied by Predict, and as much as I love the card, it seems to me that it's not pulling its weight, so I'm considering replacing it. My first thought was using Portents, but... well, the curve is super-duper narrow already. Without Predict, I have 10 cards at the 2cc slot... Yeah :frown: So, with this in mind I'm considering replacing the Predicts with Dark Confidants. I dislike this because the main thing I loved about Predict was the threshold acceleration. Now that I'm increasing the permanent count at the expense of that, I... iDunno. I just really dislike the thought of it, even though DC should draw me more non-permanent spells, it's still not immediate. I'd honestly like to play 2 or 3 'Bears in those slots, but again, more permanents (and threshold reliant permanents at that), at the expense of thresh acceleration. That's pretty icky.

Ergh. Threshold is annoying to tweak.

[diffy]

I'm considering replacing the Predicts with Dark Confidants.


I wouldn't cut Predict for Dark Confidant because of several reasons:
Dark Confidant makes you splash a fourth colour. This reduces the stability of your manabase and prevents you from playing 2+ basics. This will lead to random losses and/or to harder games against stuff like recurring Wastelands, Back to Basics, Blood Moon & Co.. The point can be made that you can just Needle the former and counter the later, but why would you want to spend resources on not letting something resolve if you could just more or less ignore it if playing a better manabase anyway? You only have very limited answers when playing Threshold and therefore being able to ignore some of your opponent's threats is even more important than in other decks.
Another major point in favour of Predict is that it draws the cards when you play it. Play it, draw two cards, see what's next. Compare this to Dark Confidant: you have to play him at sorcery speed, hope that he lives, and only then can you start drawing cards. Three turns after casting the Confidant will you have drawn as many cards as Predict has... now that's not very tempo-y, is it? If you play the deck more like a control deck with super efficient finishers (as I do), Predict still isn't bad either due to its instant-speed nature being more synergistic with low land counts and manaintensive CounterTop engine than Dark Confidant.
Also, Dark Confidant isn't a reliable source of Card Advantage. It just has a huge target sign on its head and will close to always get handled immediately whereas Predict is not regarded as threat and will therefore always restock your hand. This is a huge point against Dark Confidant as you just need that Card Advantage badly because besides Counterbalance you're only making 1for1s and the occasional 1for2 which in the long run will cause you to run out of steam. For sure you can say that if they kill your Confidants your other guys will live, but unfortunately this is often not the case as more often than not your opponent has more removal than you have (targetable) dorks. You can then make the point that Counterbalance protects Dark Confidants for them to grow to a retarded CA-engine which obviously is true, but if you have CounterTop on-line, you're in quite a good position anyway. I'd rather have something that actually gets me through to the Counterbalance and/or the Top in the first place.
Minor points: Predict milling away chaff and raising graveyard count.



Yes, Etched Oracle is also a problem as you won't be able to handle it. I'd also say it's a bit similar to MUC's Rainbow Efreet. If it would be removed or die anyways, it can be sacrificed and recurred via Strionghold or Ruins. And that's not even CDA since Oracle generates a cardadvantage of +2 cards which compensates the "skipped" drawphase. That is just sick.

Thing is, you don't have to handle Etched Oracle as it's not really a threat. It will only chump your Goyfs and make the ITF player waste his turns by recurring and playing it every turn. The recursion costs 3, playing Oracle costs 5 = 8 mana spent... your opponent won't do much else that turn meaning that you're one turn further towards finding that other Goyf/Pithing Needle/Mystic Enforcer/whatsoever will win the game.



ITF has just too many cards that will break your neck:
2 Engineered Explosives, 3 Pernicious Deed, 4 Counterbalance, 4 Swords to Plowshares, 4 Intuition, Volrath's Stronghold, Academy Ruins, 1-2 Vedalken Shackles...
All these cards have to be shut off somehow, but that is obviously impossible.


While ITF certainly is not a good matchup, I don't see it that bad: just resolve a Counterbalance before he does, Needle Pernicious Deed and tempo-play him which is relatively easy now as you only have to counter his 1-2 Engineered Explosives and 1-2 Shackles. Postboard it gets a lot better for you as you gain access to Krosan Grip (and Trygon Predator) while he won't be bringing in much. If he's bringing in Krosan Grips against your Balances and Pithing Needles, that's fine too because he's reducing his threat quantity therewith as close to all his cards in the main are better than Krosan Grips against you.

As far as new tech is concerned, a card I've grown to really like lately is a 1off Enlightened Tutor: it increases your flexibility by allowing you to play a more diverse sideboard and some 1offs main (Oblivion Ring for instance) and more importantly acts as another Counterbalance (which is like your only way to victory in so many matchups). I've replaced a Pithing Needle with it which is in my opinion the most logical choice as the Tutor can still act as a pseudo-Needle when you really need it. I've also recently moved down to 16 lands to play more cantrips as with 17 or more lands I've always been flooded.

For reference, my build can be found here (http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=dgbs8px8_4hcj6v6g7&hl=en).

[Ophidian]

Errrr, no. Perish is essentially a WoG in that match, which would fucking suck for me, as I only run 10 creatures in the 75 (Enforcers occasionally becomes MD Pithing Needles)


If you don't see how Perish wins the matchup.. well, I dunno what to say.

I pretty much spelled it out.. Hold em down with Counter/Top and play like a control deck. Brownie Points if you board out Nimble Mongoose for Meddling Mage.

[raharu]

I wouldn't cut Predict for Dark Confidant because of several reasons:
Dark Confidant makes you splash a fourth colour. This reduces the stability of your manabase and prevents you from playing 2+ basics. This will lead to random losses and/or to harder games against stuff like recurring Wastelands, Back to Basics, Blood Moon & Co.. The point can be made that you can just Needle the former and counter the later, but why would you want to spend resources on not letting something resolve if you could just more or less ignore it if playing a better manabase anyway? You only have very limited answers when playing Threshold and therefore being able to ignore some of your opponent's threats is even more important than in other decks.

I'm already playing 4c with Thoughtseizes main, which is why it doesn't bother me to 'go' to 4c, because I'm already there.


Another major point in favour of Predict is that it draws the cards when you play it. Play it, draw two cards, see what's next. Compare this to Dark Confidant: you have to play him at sorcery speed, hope that he lives, and only then can you start drawing cards. Three turns after casting the Confidant will you have drawn as many cards as Predict has... now that's not very tempo-y, is it? If you play the deck more like a control deck with super efficient finishers (as I do), Predict still isn't bad either due to its instant-speed nature being more synergistic with low land counts and manaintensive CounterTop engine than Dark Confidant.

I'm aware of this.


Also, Dark Confidant isn't a reliable source of Card Advantage. It just has a huge target sign on its head and will close to always get handled immediately whereas Predict is not regarded as threat and will therefore always restock your hand. This is a huge point against Dark Confidant as you just need that Card Advantage badly because besides Counterbalance you're only making 1for1s and the occasional 1for2 which in the long run will cause you to run out of steam. For sure you can say that if they kill your Confidants your other guys will live, but unfortunately this is often not the case as more often than not your opponent has more removal than you have (targetable) dorks. You can then make the point that Counterbalance protects Dark Confidants for them to grow to a retarded CA-engine which obviously is true, but if you have CounterTop on-line, you're in quite a good position anyway. I'd rather have something that actually gets me through to the Counterbalance and/or the Top in the first place.

That too.

Minor points: Predict milling away chaff and raising graveyard count.

I actually pointed that out already. I do love Predict, but it seems like it's not doing enough. Damnit I hate conventional blue draw in Legacy. I think I'll test the Portents, but... wtf, ten cards at 2cmc is pretty shitty. Thirteen is too, but 13 > 10. Perhaps Esper Charm could work, but I really hate being cut off of draw by a fucking wasteland.

Yet another Tangent: I'm running a 18 land manabase at the moment, and it always seems like I have more lands than I want or need. Not exactly flooded, but it just feels like I have more lands than the curve really wants. For reference:

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea

I'm thinking -1 Tropical Island for an empty slot, and -1 Underground Sea for +1 Island. And maybe cut another land, down to 16. Not sure yet.

[KillemallCFH]

I've been playing Portents over Predicts for a while and I've never really wanted to go back. Only having 10 2cc cards has never really been a problem. With the amount of library manipulation I run, I'm usually able to get a 2cc card on top if I need it there. Predict has proved too clunky for me. I seldom want to cast it turn 2 or 3, so it ends up clogging up my hand in the early game. I do miss having no cards that generate card advantage sans CB, but Portent seems to make the deck run just a little more smoothly.

[ParkerLewis]

I'm thinking -1 Tropical Island for an empty slot, and -1 Underground Sea for +1 Island. And maybe cut another land, down to 16. Not sure yet.

I've been trying to put some basics in a 4c shell. It might very well be a pure waste of time and effort, because :


there's no point in simply fitting one basic island. So you're under the moon effect with your basic island, and then what ? You still have absolutely no way to win nor to remove the moon effect no matter what you do, because for that you'd need at least a basic forest, too.
fitting 3 basics (or more) = big trouble for color management in 4c+ lists. unless you're upping the land count, and then it starts to really not be worth it because that just means that many additional junk cards in 75-80 % of matches.
hence, i think only "2 basics" is a viable configuration if you want to put any. but then, what's the second color you want to have access to ? The only actual option is green, so you'll be able to play your threats, and, in games 2 and 3, Grip/Trygon Predator. Problem is, you still most likely lost G1, and even with Grip, winning G2 AND G3 is going to be an uphill battle, to say the least (don't forget they will bring in SB reinforcements too).


Hence, you might as well just accept the losses against moon effects and the like in exchange for the huge bonuses of running the best anti combo tools (FoW, Seize, CounterTop), the best removal (StP, Grip in the board), the best critters (Goyf, Confidant), and the best filtering effects (Brainstorm, Ponder) in the whole format, all in the same deck.

But if you want to try, I can only urge you to use the 1 Island + 1 Forest configuration of basics. It's the only viable one.

[Shugyosha]

there's no point in simply fitting one basic island. So you're under the moon effect with your basic island, and then what ? You still have absolutely no way to win nor to remove the moon effect no matter what you do, because for that you'd need at least a basic forest, too.


Under a Blood Moon and under attack by Wastelands the Island lets you play cantrips and find answers like more land, Needle on Waste, Blast/Bounce on Moon (if you don't run Blasts... here's another really good reason). Island and Forest is better yeah, but Island should be always the first basic. With an Island and the amount of cantrips Threshold plays you can find the solution to whatever problem you have. With only a Forest you can just play creatures but you have to topdeck them first.

[ParkerLewis]

Island should be always the first basic. With an Island and the amount of cantrips Threshold plays you can find the solution to whatever problem you have. With only a Forest you can just play creatures but you have to topdeck them first.

Oh, totally. I was not discussing that. I was not even thinking it would be ;)

[Omega]

2 island, 1 forest are my standards for every ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh i build :) ( i dont enjoy 4c/5c

Robert

[raharu]

This is an... I presume the most articulate adjective is awkward little tweak on threshold. It doesn't particularly solve any outstanding problems with the deck, but it seems like it'll do what I want it to do better.

Lands: 18
Flooded Strand x4
Polluted Delta x3
Tropical Island x4
Tundra x3
Island x2
Nantuko Monastery x2

Creatures: 10
Nimble Mongoose x4
Tarmogoyf x4
Mystic Enforcer x2

Disruption: 10
Daze x3
Counterbalance x3
Force of Will x4

Hand Crafting: 14
Sensei’s Divining Top x3
Brainstorm x4
Ponder x4
Perdict x3

Removal: 4
Swords to Plowshares x4

Other: 2
Life from the Loam x2
2x free slots.
Candidates: Volrath's Stronghold (with a black source crammed in, obviously), Oblivion Rings, Portent, cycling lands, a Forest and a Plains, Wasteland, Pithing Needle, another LftL, another Monastery, Solitary Confinement. Yeah, a few of the cards on that list are rather off the wall, but they are things to look at. It's safe to say that the Wastelands and cycling lands won't make the cut and that Volrath's Stronghold's need of an otherwise dead black source will kill it, but they're bound to get tested.

Well, at any rate, at the beginning of the post I mentioned that there were things that I wanted my 4c to do that I think this strange little list might do better. Those things would be:

1) Get threshold faster: I pretty much refuse to not play Mystic Enforcers, which require threshold to be of much use, and Nimble Mongeese are superfuckingdead against agro without thresh. Inasmuch, while getting threshold at an average of turn 5 or so is alright against an average field, but against agro it's a no-go, having 6 of 10 creatures useless is kinda... well, it's shitty.

2) Have a stronger late-game via a recursion engine: Yeah, that. LftL is nice because it makes the deck more resistant to mana-denial plans (although thrash most likely still rapes it. All their mana-denial is free or close to it. wtf). At any rate it's something nice to have in the face of recurring late-game Wastelands, so long as you can keep applying pressure. Recurring beaters is pretty sweet, at least. I think Crucible of Worlds could be better, but LftL is better with Brainstorm. And Counterbalance. And Threshold creatures. And Ponder, to an extent. Yeah. I think LftL just does more things for the deck than Crucible.

3) There was something else, but I forgot... Whoops.

Anyway, I'll be testing this for a while, albeit against low-tier decks.

[Aggro_zombies]

Life from the Loam? Really? I'm not sure it's going to be that good here. First, Loam is generally used in situations where you're either trying to dredge a sizable chunk of your deck, or you're running cycling lands. Without the cycling land engine, Loam just feels weak.

Also, Loam does jack shit here against mana denial. You have no basic Forests, so if they keep you off green mana or somehow manage to sink all your Trops, Loam is useless.

It just seems like a poor choice here.

[Mental]

Yeah, if you want 2 cards that will help you get Thresh fast, play Mental Note. At least it instantly replaces itself and is a decent combat trick.

[raharu]

Eh. Note has been pretty shitty when I've played it. I'll see how this bit goes. I'm thinking of replacing the Deltas with Windswept Heaths and wedging in a Forest, but... I like to fetch Islands. Alot.

[Mental]

Eh. Note has been pretty shitty when I've played it. I'll see how this bit goes. I'm thinking of replacing the Deltas with Windswept Heaths and wedging in a Forest, but... I like to fetch Islands. Alot.

I'm not saying that Note is good, just that it's better than LftL in threshold. In thresh you don't have the mana to spend each turn on a complex draw engine that you can't really abuse, since all it will do is thin your deck and keep Monastery Alive. Personally, I would rather play Armageddon if I was worried about the late game, or Worship, or something like that. AND those are outdated.

[Nihil Credo]

Nantuko Monastery in Threshold doesn't excite me particularly, but it looks viable at least.

Life from the Loam, however, has to go: it's a very awkward answer against early-game disruption, and your 4/4 First Strikers should not usually hit the graveyard. Either they do nothing against 5+/5+ creatures, or they lord over 3-/3- guys - remember, they swing into double Goose or Mishra and survive. As for removal, Plow doesn't get them in the graveyard, and if they get Wastelanded or Sinkhole'd you're happy that they didn't hit a coloured source instead.

I'd definitely play a pair or even three Pithing Needles, as they don't put further strain on your coloured mana have a certain neat synergy with Monastery (opponent tries to get rid of it with Deed or Shackles? Just drop the Needle before activating Monastery). The remaining slots I'd fill with Spell Snares.

[Adan]

Nantuko Monastery in Threshold doesn't excite me particularly, but it looks viable at least.

No it doesn't. It has been obsoleted by the release of Tarmogoyf.
It WAS viable as a sideboard choice against the mirror because it blocked Goose and Werebear to death, but now we have Goyf which still survives and kills it. And before Tarmogoyf, there was Jotun Grunt which has also been sick in the mirrormatch and superior to Nantuko Monastery.


Life from the Loam, however, has to go.

Absolutely.


I'd definitely play a pair or even three Pithing Needles, as they don't put further strain on your coloured mana have a certain neat synergy with Monastery (opponent tries to get rid of it with Deed or Shackles? Just drop the Needle before playing Tarmogoyf and Mongeese). The remaining slots I'd fill with Spell Snares.

A little correction (I may not use red, right?).

Well, Spell Snares are a littlebit specific, I'd run either more Counterbalance or Oblivion Rings.

[Mirrislegend]

Has anyone tested Rafiq yet? He seems obscenely powerful to me, breaking almost every standstill you might find yourself in, and turning all your dudes (one at a time, of course) into full on powerhouse threats, rather than decently size beaters, during the lategame.

[Adan]

Haha, busted, he's only 3/3. That makes him shabby. Srsly.

[undone]

I no longer support rafiq he can be bolted, which he couldnt when he was spoiled. This significantly lowers his powerlevel. He should not be played.

[Shtriga]

yeah, he kinda blows now with 3 toughness

[Aethan]

Are you really going to play Rafiq before you can protect him with CounterTop or other permission?

[Adan]

Are you really going to play Rafiq before you can protect him with CounterTop or other permission?

Rafiq is not going to be played in Threshold since he sucks and costs 10 Bucks (WTF on that).

He dies to everything while Mystic Enforcer is somehow proof against every non-Swords to Plowshares removal (Big Game Hunter, Shriekmaw, Ghastly Demise, Smother, Bolt, Flametounge Kavu can't harm him unlike Rafiq. And Enforcer is hardly taken down by Masticore).

That's why it's very simple to win when you have CB-Top out since he is then resistent to Swords to Plowshares and then virtually has "Shroud" printed on it. Having a Simic Sky Swallower for 4 Mana is broken.

[Aethan]

Rafiq is not going to be played in Threshold since he sucks and costs 10 Bucks (WTF on that).

He dies to everything while Mystic Enforcer is somehow proof against every non-Swords to Plowshares removal (Big Game Hunter, Shriekmaw, Ghastly Demise, Smother, Bolt, Flametounge Kavu can't harm him unlike Rafiq. And Enforcer is hardly taken down by Masticore).

That's why it's very simple to win when you have CB-Top out since he is then resistent to Swords to Plowshares and then virtually has "Shroud" printed on it. Having a Simic Sky Swallower for 4 Mana is broken.

Tarmogoyf dies to all of those forms of removal (depending on how many cards are in the GY) yet many people play it in their deck. Rafiq will NOT die to Smother, however, since its cmc is 4.

Attacking every turn is hardly the best use of Rafiq anyway. I would attack with Goose instead, making it a 4/4 double-striker with shroud. Once Enforcer is on the board he becomes a 7/7 flying pro-black double-striker, hardly anything to sneeze at. One attacking Enforcer with Rafiq in play is worth more damage than an Enforcer and Goyf attacking together. The difference is that the Enforcer has evasion.

[Omega]

Who plays Smother? Seriously. The little amount of Smother should be sufficient for us to not take account of it when choosing creatures.

About Rafiq. Tarmogoyf should never die to a signe lighting bolt. If it does, i have no idea what you are doing. I played many times 0/1 Goyfs in Tournaments. But that's because i knew there was no threat. If you suspect oppoenent to have bolt, you should wait

In your example, it requires you having 2 creature. Id rather have the enforcer FTW. I wouldnt play a deck with both Rafiq and Mystic Enfocer

Robert

[Aethan]

Who plays Smother? Seriously. The little amount of Smother should be sufficient for us to not take account of it when choosing creatures.

About Rafiq. Tarmogoyf should never die to a signe lighting bolt. If it does, i have no idea what you are doing. I played many times 0/1 Goyfs in Tournaments. But that's because i knew there was no threat. If you suspect oppoenent to have bolt, you should wait

In your example, it requires you having 2 creature. Id rather have the enforcer FTW. I wouldnt play a deck with both Rafiq and Mystic Enfocer

Robert

Fair enough. I'm not saying I'd lose a Goyf to a bolt, I'm just saying that Goyf is nearly as vulnerable as Rafiq when it comes to removal. The guy above said that Enforcer is great because he's pro-black and CounterTop handles a StP... yet a Bolt is just as easy to deal with as StP with that same CunterTop - you are countering two 1cc spells. I'm not saying Rafiq will improve the deck, I'm just saying it's at least worth some testing. He's a good attacker all by himself - my point was that he has synergy with the deck's other beaters too.

In any case, this is all academic, the real test is to put him in a deck and see how he fares in the meta.

[Jaiminho]

Fair enough. I'm not saying I'd lose a Goyf to a bolt, I'm just saying that Goyf is nearly as vulnerable as Rafiq when it comes to removal. The guy above said that Enforcer is great because he's pro-black and CounterTop handles a StP... yet a Bolt is just as easy to deal with as StP with that same CunterTop - you are countering two 1cc spells. I'm not saying Rafiq will improve the deck, I'm just saying it's at least worth some testing. He's a good attacker all by himself - my point was that he has synergy with the deck's other beaters too.

In any case, this is all academic, the real test is to put him in a deck and see how he fares in the meta.

You shouldn't be playing him in addition to other beaters. Getting more and more creatures in the deck, specially since they are all aggresive, not utility or card advantage producers, you lose flexibility. By losing flexibility, you lose games. Therefore, you must see if it deserves to be in the spot of a creature that is as costly, can handle Goyfs by itself in many cases, won't get removed to anything other than STP and won't get blocked by anything other than Faerie Stompy's creatures or a copy of itself.

You can't say surviving to burn is not a good reason tu run a card. Goyf Sligh is running rampant everywhere and UGr Thresh is by far the most played aggro control deck. Obviously, CB can suck up Bolt as easy as STP, but without CB, you are open to much more removal. And under CB locking all that removal, you will have to care about your opponent blocking it and taking the time to find answers to whatever they have answers for.

[Aethan]

You shouldn't be playing him in addition to other beaters. Getting more and more creatures in the deck, specially since they are all aggresive, not utility or card advantage producers, you lose flexibility. By losing flexibility, you lose games. Therefore, you must see if it deserves to be in the spot of a creature that is as costly, can handle Goyfs by itself in many cases, won't get removed to anything other than STP and won't get blocked by anything other than Faerie Stompy's creatures or a copy of itself.

You can't say surviving to burn is not a good reason tu run a card. Goyf Sligh is running rampant everywhere and UGr Thresh is by far the most played aggro control deck. Obviously, CB can suck up Bolt as easy as STP, but without CB, you are open to much more removal. And under CB locking all that removal, you will have to care about your opponent blocking it and taking the time to find answers to whatever they have answers for.

I see your point. *sigh* I guess I've just been bitten by the cool card bug then. Oh well. :)

[Zinch]

Well, I'm not saying this is reason enough to run rafiq, but an advantage he has is that he enables a 4th turn kill... Maybe agaisnt a slow combo deck... I don't know...

At least is a point to take into acount

Edit: Nevermind, I haven't done my maths well...

[Omega]

Well, ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh isnt about 4th turn kill. Establish a soft control in the early games with daze, CB. End the game with Goyf or geese backed by force of will.

Instead of trying Safiq, i think we should try and analyze how Shards will affect legacy format. And if affected, how must UGW ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh respond to it.

Some of the planeswalker looks like bomb. I dont know their names, but the green/red one is certainly broken on paper. It can definately see some play in green/red or maybe green/black deck. I dont know if it is hyped yet.

My list already run 2 Oblivion ring which can respond to it. And obviously, i need to adapt my strategy, keep the FOW for the most dangerous spell.


Back to my experience against ITF. Would Meddling Mage maindeck be an appropriate response to it? MM have always been a hard card to play with, but maybe if i am capable of naming the good card, can i have some chance slowing opponent.
And a assuming i am playing with MM, what should my targets be first?
-Assuming an empty board. I think i would name Intuition.
-Assuming i have board advantage (Creature + CB): I think i would name EE or Pernicious Deed. I would probably name Deed first.
-Assuming board disadvantage, i think MM is useless.

does this sound correct? Or maybe i should play pithing needle maindeck. With needles, if i can shut down his mass removal, i think i can win the game before he can abuse of his engine

Robert

[Captain Hammer]

So, lots of people seem to be playing 2 Oblivion Ring.

Can we have a serious discussion comparing Oblivion Ring to Bant Charm.

Yes, Bant Charm can't deal with Counterbalance, which is a pretty significant weakness.

But it has so many very significant strengths as well.

O. Ring is extremely vulnerable. All your opponent has to do is destroy or remove it and they get their removed card right back. This happens fairly often.

O. Ring is not an instant. You can't leave your lands untapped for it till the end of your opponents turn and play it then.

O. Ring can't counter instants. This is very relevent against both counter heavy decks and certain combo decks where the most threatening spells are often instants.

O. Ring can't be pitched to FoW. So if you don't think there's anything worth spending three mana to get rid of, too bad, you're stuck with it.

Surely, I can't be the only one who thinks all these very relevent strenghts make up for the weakness of not being able to deal with enchantments.

[Adan]

So, lots of people seem to be playing 2 Oblivion Ring.

Can we have a serious discussion comparing Oblivion Ring to Bant Charm.

Yes, Bant Charm can't deal with Counterbalance, which is a pretty significant weakness.

But it has so many very significant strengths as well.

O. Ring is extremely vulnerable. All your opponent has to do is destroy or remove it and they get their removed card right back. This happens fairly often.

O. Ring is not an instant. You can't leave your lands untapped for it till the end of your opponents turn and play it then.

O. Ring can't counter instants. This is very relevent against both counter heavy decks and certain combo decks where the most threatening spells are often instants.

O. Ring can't be pitched to FoW. So if you don't think there's anything worth spending three mana to get rid of, too bad, you're stuck with it.

Surely, I can't be the only one who thinks all these very relevent strenghts make up for the weakness of not being able to deal with enchantments.

Frankly, I was hyping Oblivion Ring because I did not want to lose against UWb Landstill's Hu,ility preboard. But Oblivion Ring is still more versatile than Krosan Grip as it can remove nearly everything that could be a pain in the ass, namely Counterbalance, Bitterblossom, Humility, Crucible, some creatures that are in your way...

But I don't see when Oblivion Ring is handled preboard since only a few decks really play cards in their maindeck which can deal with Enchantments.

The other point you mentioned would also apply to Vindicate which I'd play if it would not wreck the manabase. Oblivion Ring is actually Vindicate which can easily be cast.

Bant Charm does less than Oblivion Ring. Enchantments were actually the main issue why I started playing Oblivion Ring. Bant Charm is only a Couterspell that can hardly be cast since it requires all 3 colors. The other 2 effects can be neglected in this compairison since Oblivion Ring is better at disposing artifacts and creatures.

I am still not really convinced by any Shards of Alara card. Except by Oblivion Ring since it has got a more beautiful artwork than the one from Lorwyn.

[Omega]

bant charms are bad. The mana requirement is insane. If it would be counter target spell and not instant, then yes, it would be decent. But its not, so its bad. Oblivion ring acts as removal #5-6+. This gives ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh more outs.

On another thoughts, people seem to be hyping over Ad nauseum. What are our answers to it, if its truly that amazing?

Robert

[Jak]

bant charms are bad. The mana requirement is insane. If it would be counter target spell and not instant, then yes, it would be decent. But its not, so its bad. Oblivion ring acts as removal #5-6+. This gives ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh more outs.

On another thoughts, people seem to be hyping over Ad nauseum. What are our answers to it, if its truly that amazing?

Robert

First off, it is spelled T-h-r-e-s-h.

Bant Charm is bad so I hope no one plays it. Ad Nauseum still loses to Force of Will/Counterbalance.dec. They will go off turn one more often so mull to those Forces.

[Adan]

bant charms are bad. The mana requirement is insane. If it would be counter target spell and not instant, then yes, it would be decent. But its not, so its bad. Oblivion ring acts as removal #5-6+. This gives ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh more outs.

On another thoughts, people seem to be hyping over Ad nauseum. What are our answers to it, if its truly that amazing?

Robert

Force of Will, Counterbalance, SB: Meddling Mage/Gaddock Teeg.

[KillemallCFH]

Force of Will, Counterbalance, SB: Meddling Mage/Gaddock Teeg.Also, don't underestimate Predict's usefulness. Mystical Tutor (and to a lesser extend Brainstorm) can be hit by it.

[Omega]

im just reading those crazy mini reports where they claim that their 4 duress, 2-3 orim's chant can bypass all hate.

My only concern is that the deck needs only :
5 mana + ad nauseum. Usually, its 2 dark ritual and ad nauseum. That's pretty much a three card combo.

Robert

[Adan]

Also, don't underestimate Predict's usefulness. Mystical Tutor (and to a lesser extend Brainstorm) can be hit by it.

Yes. I did that to Nihil yesterday, hihi.

[undone]

Ways you can consistentaly beat ad nauseam on the draw.

2 FoW hands
...
..
Chrome mox into teeg/balance??

On the play its much better because countertop and to a larger extent predict helps hurt them but it definately slightly unfavorable on the draw. On the play its probably slightly favorable.

To actualy combat it you need to be able to consistentaly drop a T2 Shut down peice, So I would play 4 MMage in the board and 3 teeg.

If you predict away the removal peice they tutor for you win. Period they have 1-2 outs in the entire deck.

[KillemallCFH]

Ways you can consistentaly beat ad nauseam on the draw.

2 FoW hands
...
..
Chrome mox into teeg/balance??

On the play its much better because countertop and to a larger extent predict helps hurt them but it definately slightly unfavorable on the draw. On the play its probably slightly favorable.

To actualy combat it you need to be able to consistentaly drop a T2 Shut down peice, So I would play 4 MMage in the board and 3 teeg.

If you predict away the removal peice they tutor for you win. Period they have 1-2 outs in the entire deck.I can't read half of this post, but if you think 7 anti-combo creatures are needed out of the board, you are really overestimating the power of Ad Nausam. I'm able to consistently beat AdN TES (which seems to be the most powerful AdN deck I've seen so far) without any changes made to the deck (except I added Predict back in in place of Portent), i.e. 4 Fow/4 Daze/3 CB MD and 3 Teegs (and Blue Blasts against TES) out of the board.

[Captain Hammer]

I still don't get it. How is Oblivion Ring a 2 of, but Bant Charm is bad?

Bant Charm is hands down superior at dealing with Artifacts and Creatures. What decks DON'T play Krosan Grip or Vindicate or Oblivion Rings of their own? All of these cards nullify your O. Rings. Plus Bant Charm deals with them at instant speed and at the end of your opponents turn.

Bant Charm pitches to Force of Will.

Bant Charm counters Ad Nauseum, Swords to Plowshares and Force of Will.

So by what logic is Oblivion Ring superior?

[KillemallCFH]

I played this in the Source Anniversary Tournament yesterday to a disappointing 4-3. Oh well. List:

4 Strand
4 Heath
1 Delta
3 Trop
3 Tundra
1 Island
1 Forest

4 Goyf
4 Goose
2 Enforcer

4 FoW
4 Daze

3 Top
3 CB

4 BS
4 Ponder
3 Predict

4 StP
2 O-Ring
2 Needle

SB
4 Blue Blasts
3 Teeg
3 Crypt
3 Grip
2 Jace Beleren

The list is pretty standard, apart from the pair of Jace in the board. In my testing, ITF was a pretty hard matchup, but Jace was a house against them. I kinda expected it to show up in decent numbers so I put some Jaces in the board.

R1 v Ashur (No Source Name) with MUC
G1: I win the die roll and play. I set up CB/Top and float O-ring/Enforcer on top to counter any thing relevant. Eventually I win.
(SB: -3 StP, +2 Jace, +1 Grip [His list was weird, and didn't play that many Artifacts/Enchantments that I saw. No Propaganda or Shackles, and he ran Sower.])
G2: He mulligans. I land a Goose and CB/Top/ He lands a B2B at some point that I basically ignore, just win with a shroud dude.
{1-0}

R2 v Roney (has a name on here, but doesn't post) with Rb Joblins
G1: I mull into a really shitty hand of 4 lands, Daze, Needle, and for some reason keep. I know he's playing gobs so I first turn Needle on Waste. I continue to draw a total of 7 fetches and scoop it up when he lands some beaters.
(SB: -3 CB, -1 Predict, +4 Blue Blasts)
G2: I get double Goyf and a Goose early and he can't win through my beats.
G3: I see a hand filled with a lot of answers but not much gas. I play cantrips into a lot more answers and just play control for a while. Eventually I land an Enforcer and win. I saw a total of 3 StPs, 3 Blue Blasts, and a couple FoWs this game. He also played a Chalice @ 2 at some point, which, had it been at 1 instead, would have really fucked me, since I won off the back of 1 mana removal.
{2-0}

R3 v Matt P. (Peter_Rotten) with Goyf Sligh.
G1: He gets an early Sylvan Library, which I let resolve. I eventually set up CB/Top and win with Goyf.
(SB: -2 Needle, -1 Predict, -1 O-Ring [I think; might've been 2 Predicts, actually], +4 Blue Blasts)
G2: This game was really close. He plays dudes, I play StPs. He plays burn, I go low in life. Eventually I'm at 1 and he has to topdeck burn. He finds a riftbolt, suspends it, and I can't find a Blue Blast on my turn (or an StP on my own Goyf would've let me live), so he wins.
G3: My notes just say "Goyf + Enforcer," so I assume I won this off the back of Goyf + Enforcer. Just a hunch, though.
[Aside: Apparently I really need to start paying attention to what I do. After the game, P_R told me that when I Pondered or Topped, I put the cards back on top in such a way that he was able to see them. I guess I kinda suck at this game.]
{3-0}

R4 v Jay P. (Afro) with Geddon Stax
G1: Yuck. What a bad matchup. He has a busted opening hand and I scoop it up when his board has about 10 permanents I can't answer, including a Smokestacks that is picking off all my land.
(SB: -3 CB, -3 StP, +3 Teeg, +3 Grip)
G2: I play a turn 1 cantrip, and a turn 2 Needle on Waste (I think). He plays a turn 2 Suppression Field against my hand of 2 fetches and a Top. What a beating. I eventually land a Teeg, which slows the game down to a crawl, and he gets a 3Sphere, Defense Grid (again, what a beating), and double Magus. He also lays a Chalice @ 1 at some point (before I got the Teeg, obviously). I have to spend all of mana keeping Teeg and Goyf alive (without Goyf, he starts beating me in with Magi). Eventually I hit a 5th land, let Goyf die, Grip the Chalice, StP a Magus, and O-ring something (over the course of a couple turns). All of this is pretty moot though, as he eventually O-Rings Teeg and plays Geddon, against which I can't do shit due to Defense Grid (and 3Sphere). I scoop it up soon after.
{3-1}

R5 v Rich (no source name, but he ends up T8ing) playing MUC
G1: He lands a B2B while I'm tapped out with 3 duals. I never recover and Morphling seals it.
(SB: -3 StP, -1 Predict, -1 O-Ring, +3 Grip, +2 Jace)
G2: Goose gets there, with the help of CB/Top. I also end up having to deal with 3 B2Bs this game.
G3: I play a first turn Needle on Shackles. Second turn Goyf meets Spell Snare. Third turn Goyf meets Spell Snare. He plays a Keg, I Grip. He plays another Keg, I Grip. I get an Enforcer to pair up with my Goyf and get him down on life. He lands a Morphling. I make what might've been a match-losing play mistake here, although assuming optimal play from my opponent, it wouldn't have mattered. He has Morhpling and I have Enforcer and Goyf, but can only swing with one (multiple Propagandas). I also have a Needle in my hand. Instead of playing Needle naming Morphling beforehand, I swing with Enforcer, and he blocks with a -2/7 Flying Morphling. Had I played Needle first, he might not have responded and I would've been able to get in there with Enforcer for 6, which would've won me the game, since he stabilized at 2. Anyways, he plays another Powder Keg on his turn. I try to O-Ring, he has a Counterspell (I think my hand at this point is FoW + Land). He blows Keg @ 1 and wipes my Needles. He also plays a B2B at some point (which is his 2nd or 3rd one; I know I FoWed at least one earlier in the game). I then swing with Goyf and force him to block with and let die his Morphling. Next turn he topdecks the Shackles, steals my Enforcer, and then topdecks Powder Keg #4 to kill Goyf, which leaves me without any way of winning.
[tl;dr version: He draws lots of Powder Kegs and B2Bs, I make a potentially match-losing mistake.]
{3-2}

R6 v Jeff (no source name) with Merfolk
G1: I'm tired, mad about last match, and playing awfully at this point. He plays lots of little island-walkers and I lose.
{SB: Nothing!}
G2: He islandwalks. I lose.
{3-3}

R7 v I-stopped-taking-notes-and-didn't-write-down-his-name playing W/B Bomberman
G1: He goes first turn Swamp, Sunbeam Spellbomb and I am thoroughly confused. I beat him with green dudes and FoW a Salvagers.
(SB: -2 ???, +2 Crypt)
G2: I play a Crypt. I beat him down or something. He eventually Tendrils for 10. I beat him down some more and win.
{4-3}

Stax is a really tough matchup and MUC is kinda iffy. The MUC player I lost to countered all my CBs and saw multiple B2Bs every game. I kinda expected a lot of Ad Nauseam, and was disappointed to not run into any of it, since that was my primary reason for choosing Thresh. I was kicking myself against MUC for not running a basic plains, but I feel uncomfortable going down to only 15 blue sources. In the future I might run a second basic Island, as having multiple lands that untap through B2B is really important in that MU.

That came out kinda long for a mini-report. Oh well.

@Hammer: Bant Charm doesn't deal with CB, Survival, as well as random white enchantments that cause you a lot of trouble (Humility, Confinement, Moat, Runed Halo). It is also really hard on the manabase when you're under B2B/Moon/Waste-lock. Not being able to deal with enchantments is a huge problem with Bant Charm, and for basically that reason alone, I'm sticking with O-Ring. Being able to hit Instants is moot, because it requires you to leave 3 mana open. Which is very seldom going to happen when facing any of the cards you named.

[Adan]

Bant Charm is hands down superior at dealing with Artifacts and Creatures. What decks DON'T play Krosan Grip or Vindicate or Oblivion Rings of their own? All of these cards nullify your O. Rings.

And guess what? Bant Charm can't, ROFL. It also does shit about Counterbalance and Humility and Survival and Pernicious Deed.


Bant Charm pitches to Force of Will.
Bant Charm counters Ad Nauseum, Swords to Plowshares and Force of Will.
So by what logic is Oblivion Ring superior?

By what logic is this a valid argument when... Negate would fulfill the same criterias? That you can pitch a certain card is - and I saw that in many discussions now - the last "emergency excuse" to justify a card. But in a deck like Threshold where you have such a overwhelming cardquality, it can be neglected whether 2 cards more or less pitch to Force of Will.

[Captain Hammer]

Look the fact that it can't hit enchantments is a big deal, so if enchantments are a big part of the reason you're playing O. Ring, then sure, that's a valid reason to stick with O. Ring.

But the second part of your argument is the biggest load of crap I've heard all day.

Being an instant, being blue and being able to counter instants are all very strong advantages in legacy.

If you're seriously naive enough to argue that they're not relevent, I have a bridge I want to sell you.

[KillemallCFH]

Being blue, being an instant, and being able to counter instants are all very strong advantages.Being able to counter one specific spell type for THREE MANA is basically useless in everything but the control matchup, where it might actually come into play. We don't play a card that can counter any spell for 2; why the fuck would we play a card that can counter only one card type for more mana?

Yes, I know that is only one of its functions, but you are trying to make it seem like that part of the card is in any way relevant, which, frankly, it isn't.

[Captain Hammer]

Yes, I know that is only one of its functions, but you are trying to make it seem like that part of the card is in any way relevant, which, frankly, it isn't.

Countering instants with Bant is utterly useless huh :confused:

You may want to tell that to my opponent yesterday whose StP I countered when my Goyf was swinging in for lethal damage.

Or my opponent yesterday whose FoW I countered.

Hell, half this page is devoted to a discussion of whether we have enough ways to stop the opponent's second attempt to resolve Ad Nauseum.

I'm not saying that Bant should be in the deck.

But arguing that being playable at instant speed, or being able to counter instants are somehow irrelevent is utterly retarded.

[raharu]

Countering instants with Bant is utterly useless huh :confused:

You may want to tell that to my opponent yesterday whose StP I countered when my Goyf was swinging in for lethal damage.

Or my opponent yesterday whose FoW I countered.

Hell, half this page is devoted to a discussion of whether we have enough ways to stop the opponent's second attempt to resolve Ad Nauseum.

I'm not saying that Bant should be in the deck.

But arguing that being playable at instant speed, or being able to counter instants are somehow irrelevent is utterly retarded.
Seriously, just play damned Counterspell in those slots. Fuck.

[Aethan]

Maybe I'm just stupid but I don't see why it's better to have to spend all three of your mana types (including your off color) to counter one type of spell when you can counter them all for 2 of your dominant color. (Bant Charm vs. Counterspell). I can see Bant's utility and flexibility as after-the-fact removal of critters and artifacts, but if you are primarily using it as a counter why not increase that card slot's utility as a counter while reducing its mana cost?


Countering instants with Bant is utterly useless huh :confused:

You may want to tell that to my opponent yesterday whose StP I countered when my Goyf was swinging in for lethal damage.

Or my opponent yesterday whose FoW I countered.

Hell, half this page is devoted to a discussion of whether we have enough ways to stop the opponent's second attempt to resolve Ad Nauseum.

I'm not saying that Bant should be in the deck.

But arguing that being playable at instant speed, or being able to counter instants are somehow irrelevent is utterly retarded.

[Adan]

Look the fact that it can't hit enchantments is a big deal, so if enchantments are a big part of the reason you're playing O. Ring, then sure, that's a valid reason to stick with O. Ring.

Enchantments are in fact the reason why I'd always play Ring over Bant Charm.


But the second part of your argument is the biggest load of crap I've heard all day.

Being an instant, being blue and being able to counter instants are all very strong advantages in legacy.

Ok. Counterspell anyone? I played Disrupting Shoal pre-Counterbalance just by the way. They both do the same thing you are arguing for.
The Hatfields were playing Counterspell, too. 2 of them.


If you're seriously naive enough to argue that they're not relevent, I have a bridge I want to sell you.

I just don't have the drive to hype and include a new card into a deck to replace it's established cardchoices which have already been elaborated in mutiple discussions before.

[Captain Hammer]

Who the hell said I'm using Bant Charm primarily as a Counterspell.

Why the fuck would you guys even make up some idiotic crap about how I don't use Bant Charm to deal with problem creatures and artifacts.

That's the whole fucking point, that I can use Bant for whatever purpose suits me best for that specific situation. If what I need to do is get rid of a Goyf, that's what I do. If I need it to counter a Swords, then that's what I do instead.

Like I said, if you find yourself O. Ringing away enchantments often, then sure, play that instead.

But all this bullshit about how Counterspell is identical to Bant Charm is pissing me off.

Take it easy there. No need to get so cranky

-PR

[Jaiminho]

Why so aggressive? Can't make your point?

On the discussion:

Oblivion Ring is much better at doing what Bant Charm does with its 2 first effects. If you aren't siding Ring out for something like Krosan Grip or Trygon Predator to deal exclusively with artifacts and enchantments, there's something really wrong going on, unless you actually need that much removal count for those types. That said, Oblivion Ring is a monster removal for game 1. On games 2 and 3 your opponent will bring hate for CB which splashes over Ring. Know what? Deal with that or simply side Ring out for some actual removal.

Regarding the second and third effects, they are simply too weak or too narrow and versatility won't compensate that. We don't play Piracy Charm because every one of its effects suck. We won't play Bant Charm for the same reason. On top of things, Bant Charm costs 3 colored and you can't afford that in a format that sees mana base disruption everywhere.

Quoting IBA, versatily rarely trumps raw power. Oblivion Ring is powerful and versatile. Bant Charm is versatile and mediocre.

[Captain Hammer]

I would argue that at instant speed, Bant Charm is actually a more powerful effect than O. Ring.

But, meh, let's just drop this argument okay. We're just going in circles. Run what you want.

[Illissius]

Quoting IBA, versatily rarely trumps raw power. Oblivion Ring is powerful and versatile. Bant Charm is versatile and mediocre.

I'm not sure where you're getting this from. Both of them are versatile and mediocre. Removal for three mana is inherently pretty bad in a format where the threats cost two. One of them can hit enchantments, the other is an instant and can counter instants. If you care about enchantments, play Ring, if you don't, play Charm. That said, I think the ideal number of either of them to play in this deck is zero.

...and that said, we can't always get what we want. It would be really great not to have to use crappy removal spells for three mana, but Counterbalance exists and many people play it. That's the only reason Oblivion Ring was ever included in the deck. So while Ring and Charm are pretty comparable as cards (they both suck), one of them does what this deck needs and the other one doesn't. So I wouldn't play Bant Charm either -- but not for the reasons you stated.

EDIT -- Better question, is Oblivion Ring better than Engineered Explosives?

[KillemallCFH]

...and that said, we can't always get what we want. It would be really great not to have to use crappy removal spells for three mana, but Counterbalance exists and many people play it. That's the only reason Oblivion Ring was ever included in the deck. So while Ring and Charm are pretty comparable as cards (they both suck), one of them does what this deck needs and the other one doesn't. So I wouldn't play Bant Charm either -- but not for the reasons you stated.Also note that if your meta permits, Krosan Grip is much better than O-Ring (which is much better than Bant Charm).

EDIT -- Better question, is Oblivion Ring better than Engineered Explosives?EE is more mana intensive (especially to reliably kill CB, it takes 5 mana [3 to play it, so it dodges CB, 2 to activate]), kills your own CB/Goyf, and (minor point) isn't a 3cc card for counterbalance. All those considered, I've always been more happy with O-Ring.

[Jaiminho]

I'm not sure where you're getting this from. Both of them are versatile and mediocre. Removal for three mana is inherently pretty bad in a format where the threats cost two. One of them can hit enchantments, the other is an instant and can counter instants. If you care about enchantments, play Ring, if you don't, play Charm. That said, I think the ideal number of either of them to play in this deck is zero.

I said Oblivion Ring is powerful in contrast to Charm being mediocre, not that it was comparable to something like STP or FOW. It's main reason to be in the deck is to fight CB, but those slots are not occupied by Grip simply because Ring, while powerful (ok, let me restate: powerful enough), deals with other stuff. I also said that's game 1. On game 2, get some real removal out of the board and stick them in place of Ring. EE is obviously a much more powerful card, but it can't do everything for you, might remove some of your own stuff and is slower than Ring most of the times, but is also able to endure more severe mana disruption.

[Aethan]

Rafiq revisited:

So, now that I've played around a bit with Rafiq here's what I've noticed:

He turns Enforcer into a 7/7, flying, problack, doublestriking, 2turn clock of death.

He turns Mongoose into a 4/4 double striking Bear-Goose killer that trades with an opposing Enforcer/Goyf (UG2 killed for G).

He breaks the synergy of an opposing Goyf. (Your 5/6 Goyf becomes a 6/7 first striker vs his 5/6 Goyf)

He beats some ass all by himself.

Even if he lasts only one turn you can easily get 7-8 extra damage out of an attack by playing him... and for only 4 mana.

[fallenphoenix]

General misconception:

You compare a board of "Rafiq + anything else" to a board of "just anything else".

Ofc having Rafiq + Mongoose is better than just mongoose... that's pretty obvious.
But is it still better than Enforcer + Mongoose?

"Rafiq + goyf" > "Enforcer + goyf" ?
"Rafiq + Enforcer" > "2x Enforcer" ?

"Rafiq + nothing" > "Enforcer" ?
"2x Rafiq" > "2x Enforcer" ?

I think I made my point clear.

Enforcer is better in almost any situation, imho.