[OLD] UGw Threshold

[Adan]

General misconception:

You compare a board of "Rafiq + anything else" to a board of "just anything else".

Ofc having Rafiq + Mongoose is better than just mongoose... that's pretty obvious.
But is it still better than Enforcer + Mongoose?

"Rafiq + goyf" > "Enforcer + goyf" ?
"Rafiq + Enforcer" > "2x Enforcer" ?

"Rafiq + nothing" > "Enforcer" ?
"2x Rafiq" > "2x Enforcer" ?

I think I made my point clear.

Enforcer is better in almost any situation, imho.

I absolutely agree.

But notice that 2x Rafiq is insanely stupid.

[Illissius]

Why? Double strike only works once. Only the +1/+1 is cumulative.

[Aleksandr]

Legendary status?

I think, that:
2x Rafiq is insanely stupid. was not an irony.

[fallenphoenix]

2x Rafiq is insanely stupid.


Legendary status?


Which is why I mentioned it. :D

Sadly, there is not much beyond a 6/6 flying, pro:black creature.

Btw: What do you guys think of Ranger of Eos?
Could be neat to fetch 2x Mongoose in the LS-MU/Mirror, but he's a bit slow on his own.
SB-material?

[Aethan]

Yes, everyone jump on the "Rafiq sucks" bandwagon and say things that sound wicked cool like "2x Rafiq is insanely stupid" without actually doing any thinking. No wait, that's idiocy too.

Here's a rather simple analysis of Rafiq + Goyf vs. Enforcer + Goyf; instants such as StP aren't included for this matchup. This is a true mirror match in which both players are assumed to have a standard UGw CounterTop Thresh deck. The only difference is that one deck has Enforcer x2 while the other has Rafiq x2. This is an example of symmetry breaking.

Player 1 (P1): Enforcer 6/6 + Goyf 5/6
Player 2 (P2): Rafiq 3/3 + Goyf 5/6

-------------------------------------------

Scenario 1 - No blocking, everything attacks:

P1 Attack 6/6 + 5/6 = 11
P2 Attack 12/7 = 12
P1 Attack 6/6 + 5/6 = 11 Win

Reverse

P2 Attack 12/7 = 12
P1 Attack 6/6 + 5/6 = 11
P2 Attack 12/7 = 12 Win

Result - tie.

-------------------------------------------

Scenario 2 - Blocking allowed:

P1 Attack 6/6 + 5/6 P2 block Goyf with Goyf = 6
P2 Attack 8/4 = 8
P1 Attack 6/6 + 5/6 block Goyf with Goyf = 6
P2 Attack 12/7 = 12 win

Reverse

P2 Attack 12/7 = 12
P1 Attack 6/6 + 5/6 = 11
P2 Attack 12/7 = 12 Win

Result - P2 win

-------------------------------------------

Scenario 2a:

P1 Attack 6/6 = 6
P2 Attack 12/7 block Goyf with Goyf = 0
P1 Attack 6/6 = 6
P2 Attack 12/7 = 12
P1 Attack 6/6 = 6
P2 Attack 12/7 = Win

Reverse

P2 Attack 12/7 = 12
P1 Attack 6/6 = 6
P2 Attack 12/7 block Goyf with Goyf = 0
P1 Attack 6/6 = 6
P2 Attack 12/7 = 12 Win

Result - P2 win

-------------------------------------------

Scenario 2b:

P1 Null Attack
P2 Attack 12/7 double block = 0
P1 Null Attack (Creatures Dead)
P2 Attack 12/7 = 12
P1 Null Attack (Creatures Dead)
P2 Attack 12/7 = 12 Win

Reverse

P2 Attack 12/7 double block = 0
P1 Null Attack (Creatures Dead)
P2 Attack 12/7 = 12
P1 Null Attack (Creatures Dead)
P2 Attack 12/7 = 12 Win

Result - P2 Win
-------------------------------------------

As can be seen, the deck with Rafiq is the clear favorite here. Someone prove me wrong in a way that doesn't involve saying "st00pd noob, Rafiqs are st00pdz!"

[b4r0n]

Besides the obvious point that the situation you're examining is incredibly narrow, you have to take into account several points against Rafiq:


Toughness of 3. This makes Rafiq quite susceptible to burn. Enforcer will almost always come down as a 6/6, making it a lot more difficult to remove. This ties in to...
Weakness on the defensive. While Rafiq is a strong offensive weapon, he doesn't help you stabilize. Enforcer is huge there. This is the primary reason for running Enforcer.
Lack of pro black. Protection from black is becoming increasingly relevant with Tombstalker getting more play. Against decks like Team America or Eva Green, Enforcer is a bomb. Rafiq is mediocre at best.

Sure, there are points in support of Rafiq. He's not dependent on the graveyard, he presents a slightly faster clock, and he pitches to Force. However, those just don't compare to the strengths of Enforcer. So in general, Rafiq just seems to be a sub-optimal choice.

[Elf_Ascetic]

To add something to b4r0n's list:
Enforcer is very, very good in blocking Tarmo's and Tombstalkers. Rafiq is not.

[ParkerLewis]

Weakness on the defensive. While Rafiq is a strong offensive weapon, he doesn't help you stabilize. Enforcer is huge there.
Lack of pro black. Protection from black is becoming increasingly relevant with Tombstalker getting more play.




To add something to b4r0n's list:
Enforcer is very, very good in blocking Tarmo's and Tombstalkers. Rafiq is not.

To add something to those two lists : Rafiq is worse at defending. It's especially true against Tombstalker, where Enforcer's pro black really shines.

[Jaiminho]

To add something to those two lists : Rafiq is worse at defending. It's especially true against Tombstalker, where Enforcer's pro black really shines.

People seem to forget that Rafiq doesn't fly, so he kinda can't block Tombstalker like ever. Not like Enforcer can block Tombstalker because of pro black, but more like because he can fly. Pro black just makes it pass through it and force a faster clock than the 5/5.

[Aleksandr]

Btw: What do you guys think of Ranger of Eos?
Could be neat to fetch 2x Mongoose in the LS-MU/Mirror, but he's a bit slow on his own.
SB-material?

We already play better tutors for creatures - BS, Ponder, SDT. This guy is expensive, has little body and has no eva/pro. I would rather find one Mongoose (or Goyf, Enforcer) via cantrip, than two Mongooses (and only them) via this pseudotutor for :4:

As always - we win due to consistency, cantriping into relevant cards and tempo. Ranger does not offer anything of it: He is bad at tempo, does not cantrip (not to mention pitching) into Force/Grip/CB/land and is inconsistent: as a four-mana drop you dont wanna many of them, as a one-of for late game he is of no use, because all of your Gooses are either dead, neutralised by opposing Goyfs/Enforcers/Stalkers/Naughts/whatever.

We dont play Rafiq, because it does not fly, has no pro/eva and his ability is irrelevant most of the time. This guy sucks even more than Rafiq.

I think that creature base of NQGw is narrowed down to:

core (no-brainers): Mongoose, Pornogoyf
big beats: Mystic Enforcer, Serendib Efreet, Dryad, Naught
utility/big beats: Werebear, Jötun Grunt
utility: Meddling/Trinket Mage, Trygon Predator, Gaddock

There are 8-12 slots for creatures (14 maximally). Eight are occupied by core units.

I am yet to be surprised with viable Dreadnought Thresh. This leads us to removal of Trinket Mage, which is not as good without toolbox and Naught.

Werebear is outclassed by Goyf, Grunt dies too easily, but could be useful in SB. Bear has his use in "old-school" decks packing Geddon and he also speeds up Enforcer and taps for G, but I dont think it is very important.

MM and Gaddock are both sideboard material at best.

Quirion Dryad is bad topdeck, sorta card we cannot afford.

Predator is good at what it does, but he is terribly slow at beating (esp. with his cc), so we limit his numbers to two-three between MD and SB.

Serendib Efreet outright sucks when compared to Enforcer, but his unreliability on GY and the facts that he always flies, is in our primary color, does not need two colors to be summoned, pitches to FoW and that he fills the hole at cc :3: for CB, these facts could be enough to justify him. (But then there is Smother that kills the Efreet, 3/4 vs 6/6 etc..)

Enforcer, with all his pros and cons is still the best creature for our purposes and what is most important - both on offense and in defense. (Mongoose, Predator and Efreet little bit lose their strength as game proccedes...) OK, he lacks some filigrane aspects like built-in Disenchant, Ph. Arena (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=83771), manaproduction, biting in upkeep, or anything... but his combat strentgh is not to be overlooked.

And he survives Dev. Dreams for 5, where every other creature, sometimes even Goyf, would die..

I think that the deck does not need another critter... We are happy with Mongooses, Goyfs, Predators and Enforcers. Configuration of 4/4/2/2 (or 4/4/2, be it Predator or Enfie) is the best, imho.

[Aethan]

Besides the obvious point that the situation you're examining is incredibly narrow, you have to take into account several points against Rafiq:


Toughness of 3. This makes Rafiq quite susceptible to burn. Enforcer will almost always come down as a 6/6, making it a lot more difficult to remove. This ties in to...
Weakness on the defensive. While Rafiq is a strong offensive weapon, he doesn't help you stabilize. Enforcer is huge there. This is the primary reason for running Enforcer.
Lack of pro black. Protection from black is becoming increasingly relevant with Tombstalker getting more play. Against decks like Team America or Eva Green, Enforcer is a bomb. Rafiq is mediocre at best.

Sure, there are points in support of Rafiq. He's not dependent on the graveyard, he presents a slightly faster clock, and he pitches to Force. However, those just don't compare to the strengths of Enforcer. So in general, Rafiq just seems to be a sub-optimal choice.

The situation I'm examining is not extremely narrow. I illustrated that particular match up because it was supposed to be the match up most strongly in favor of Enforcer and it turned out to be in favor of the Rafiq. Other Rafiq + X match ups work out in a similar manner.

As to Rafiq's vulnerability to lightning bolt or other removal here are a few other creatures from DTB's that are similarly vulnerable:
Dark Confidant
Sea Drake
Painter's Servant
Vexing Shusher
etc.

Nobody questions their inclusion in these other decks. Besides this fact, Lightning Bolt is one of the easiest things to counter in a CounterTop deck. Also, the usage of Lightning Bolt in serious contenders in the Legacy meta is very limited - it is seen in UGr thresh and Imperial Painter. Other removal is similarly limited - you will see Gempalm Incinerator in Goblins but the default decklist uses this as only a 2-of. Diabolic Edict is seen in U/b/x Landstill but ALL creatures are potential victims of it, plus it is also easily countered by CounterTop or normal counters. Seismic Assault appears in Aggro Loam but an extra land discarded (easy to do) to this enchantment will kill a Goyf or Enforcer too. Ghastly Demise is seen in UGb Thresh but this can reasonably work on a Goyf as well, not to mention the fact that it is also easy to counter with CounterTop. StP will kill just about anything except a Goose so I shouldn't have to mention it either.

Weakness on the defensive is only a weakness if you don't have a strong offense. Being unable to block a Tombstalker doesn't matter if you force your opponent to the following decision: "Do I keep attacking with my 5/5 even though his Goyf will do 10 dmg per turn or do I block and pray for an answer to be drawn?" Clearly the Tombstalker is an underdog to even a modestly sized 4/5 Goyf when Rafiq is on board. By keeping the pressure up on the opponent even a strong beater such as the stalker can be made to crumple. Besides, UGw is Aggro/Control - saying Tombstalker is a threat to UGw thresh assumes that: 1) It wasn't countered 2) You don't hold a StP or O-ring 3) You can't field a 5/6 Goyf and/or a Rafiq anytime soon. For all three conditions to be true you would likely have been playing with a hand you should have mulled in the first place. Even if your Goyf trades with his Tombstalker (it is unlikely for you to have a Goyf as weak as 3/4, but I'll go with that for the moment) you will be swinging with Rafiq for 8 the next turn.

The whole "Enforcer is very, very good in blocking Tarmo's" was covered in my longer post above - the "and Tombstalkers" bit was just covered.

[Guy I Don't Know]

first of all, if the person i am playing against is playing lightning bolt, i am happy, that seems like a good matchup. Second mystic enforcer seems better except for not being pitchable to force.

on a different note, what would you sideboard against ad nauseum and in general how does the matchup play out?

[Brushwagg]

Can this Rafiq thing get dropped please? Run him if you want. But remeber it doesn't have shroud, and is not big in the ass like Goyf and Enforcer. The examples given are kind of narrow, I mean a cycled Gempalm Incinerator with a couple of gobos sends this guy packing.

Since there are attacking demos out why not blocking demos also. It really coems down to if you need a creature to block and kill an attacker do you want a 3/3 or 6/6?? There's been quite a few times I needed Enforcer to keep me alive for the W. Just saying.

Edit: Why is everyone mentioning pitching to FOW as a reason to include Rafiq?? You should be playing at least 22 blue cards.

[chokin]

You will see Gempalm Incinerator in Goblins but the default decklist uses this as only a 2-of.
Because they have Weirdings now, which is a lot better. Also, you go under the assumption that you will always have CB+Top from the way you talk about removal in other decks.


Weakness on the defensive is only a weakness if you don't have a strong offense. Being unable to block a Tombstalker doesn't matter if you force your opponent to the following decision: "Do I keep attacking with my 5/5 even though his Goyf will do 10 dmg per turn or do I block and pray for an answer to be drawn?" Clearly the Tombstalker is an underdog to even a modestly sized 4/5 Goyf when Rafiq is on board. By keeping the pressure up on the opponent even a strong beater such as the stalker can be made to crumple. Besides, UGw is Aggro/Control - saying Tombstalker is a threat to UGw thresh assumes that: 1) It wasn't countered 2) You don't hold a StP or O-ring 3) You can't field a 5/6 Goyf and/or a Rafiq anytime soon. For all three conditions to be true you would likely have been playing with a hand you should have mulled in the first place. Even if your Goyf trades with his Tombstalker (it is unlikely for you to have a Goyf as weak as 3/4, but I'll go with that for the moment) you will be swinging with Rafiq for 8 the next turn.

In a black deck packed with hand destruction and land destruction, it isn't impossible that you have too few lands to cast a counter, O-Ring, or STP or that you didn't discard them in the first few turns. So then Rafiq costs 4 and requires all of the decks colors. An early Tombstalker on the table is viable and scary. It'll take time for you to catch up sometimes. You mention that if you can't stop that Stalker, it's probably a hand you should have mulled, but that makes discard a bit scarier, not to mention you may be getting a hand that's even worse. Just sayin.

[Jaiminho]

As to Rafiq's vulnerability to lightning bolt or other removal here are a few other creatures from DTB's that are similarly vulnerable:
Dark Confidant
Sea Drake
Painter's Servant
Vexing Shusher
etc.

You should not analyse Rafiq as in the same page as all those creatures you mentioned, except for Sea Drake. All those are utility (or combo, in Painter's case), not defense or offense. None of those would improve your board position in a way you can stop the opponent's offensive or in a way you can rush into your opponent's neck. They provide advantage through different ways. It's like comparing Mishra's Factory with Volrath's Stronghold.

[b4r0n]

The situation I'm examining is not extremely narrow.

You're examining a board position of Rafiq + Goyf versus Rafiq + Enforcer with even life totals and no removal. How is that not narrow?


As to Rafiq's vulnerability to lightning bolt or other removal here are a few other creatures from DTB's that are similarly vulnerable:
Dark Confidant
Sea Drake
Painter's Servant
Vexing Shusher
etc.

Nobody questions their inclusion in these other decks.

And there's a good reason for that: none of those creatures are playing the same role that Enforcer/Rafiq would play in Threshold. Enforcer/Rafiq are finishers. That kind of entails slightly different criteria for consideration than a Painter's Servant or a Vexing Shusher would.


Weakness on the defensive is only a weakness if you don't have a strong offense.

Maybe you're playing Threshold differently than I am, but I often find myself using Enforcer to block. It's bigger than most other creatures in the format (minus Dreadnaughts and Terravores), so it deters attacks or serves as a solid blocker. Rafiq can be used to block too... but he's most likely to die. Not so hot. And not what you want from a finisher.

I think what you're missing is that you often won't be able to drop Rafiq and just race your opponent. You're right, Thresh is aggro/control. But that means that it's able to easily switch between those roles. Enforcer is conducive to that. Rafiq is not. That's all I'm saying. And you're more than welcome to play Rafiq, that's your call. I'm just telling you that from my experience with Rafiq, Enforcer, and Threshold in general, it's generally going to be a sub-optimal choice.

[raharu]

Weakness on the defensive is only a weakness if you don't have a strong offense. Being unable to block a Tombstalker doesn't matter if you force your opponent to the following decision: "Do I keep attacking with my 5/5 even though his Goyf will do 10 dmg per turn or do I block and pray for an answer to be drawn?" Clearly the Tombstalker is an underdog to even a modestly sized 4/5 Goyf when Rafiq is on board.

How about a Silver Knight with a Jitte (two counters) and a Mother of Runes? Most real agro decks are going to kill you if you think that Rafiq being a decent offense is a good defense. Seriously, it'll get you killed by WW, or even D+T, matches that should be won, but won't be because you played the sub-par creature.

[Waikiki]

In that situation he'll just block your goyf and snuff out/plow/bolt/whatever the rafiq. In that situation enforcer simply goes in for six each turn and can't even be blocked by the tombstalker.

[Aleksandr]

In that situation he'll just block your goyf and snuff out/plow/bolt/whatever the rafiq. In that situation enforcer simply goes in for six each turn and can't even be blocked by the tombstalker.

I was about to write exactly the same.
Last note - as Jaiminho wrote, Rafiq does not fly. Enforcer flies.

Enforcer > Hyppie, Stalker, SoFIed Serendib.
Rafiq > Dwarven Vigilante, Folk of the Pines, Brood of Cockroaches.

Play whatever you want.

[Forbiddian]

The examples given for why Rafiq was "good" were biased a bit, putting Rafiq in the best possible light.

For one, both players started at 20. Starting at 18 (using just two fetches... probably pretty likely), Enforcer becomes an unassisted three turn clock, making it much better. More power is better, obviously, but in most games, 8 gives the same 3 turn clock as 6.

For two, Rafiq is pretty much only good in the situation where he's alone or with one big swing partner that the double strike can really help on. If the situation is confounded by a third creature, like goyf mongoose + Rafiq against Enforcer goyf mongoose, it's clear who comes out on top. As a corollary, Rafiq becomes much worse when your opponent can chump you. Enforcer is hard to chump.



Enforcer pros:
Beats black and every deck that relies on black removal (like Survival).
Can act as a big wall when you play him.
Better with 2 other creatures in play.
Better against bolt/incinerator/Jitte/Flamebreak (which nobody mentioned I don't think until now).
+3 life when Swordsed.
Better when your opponent can wall you out or chain chump.
It's conceivable that you have plains forest wasteland wasteland. Or your opponent played Eladamri's Vineyard and you have Plains Wasteland. Ok, now I'm just getting ridiculous.

Rafiq pros:
Better when the opponent has 19 or more life in a clock race. Or 13-16 life. Or 7-8 life.
Pitches to Force of Will (also vulnerable to Red Elemental Blast and can't block Piledriver, but nobody mentions THOSE).
Better if you don't have Threshold before turn 5.
Better with a Goyf partner of 5 power or better when your opponent can't chump.

Let me know if you can think of anything else for either one, I tried to make a complete list. Obviously some of these are more important than others (like I think beating black is really important), so don't just add up the plusses.

[Henrik]

The Rafiq-discussion is really wearing me out, can we just drop it? As I see it, the players of UGw threshold have settled comfortably in a camp either pro or against him. Let's just play what we prefer shall we, I guess we'll all be aware of the day that a Rafiq-thresh list hits a top 8. I say, best of luck to all of the Rafiqers.

How come there's no discussion of the japanese list playing 4 ancestral vision instead of predicts? What's your thoughts on AV as a means of CA in threshold decks?

[Ophidian]

The Rafiq-discussion is really wearing me out, can we just drop it? As I see it, the players of UGw threshold have settled comfortably in a camp either pro or against him. Let's just play what we prefer shall we, I guess we'll all be aware of the day that a Rafiq-thresh list hits a top 8. I say, best of luck to all of the Rafiqers.

How come there's no discussion of the japanese list playing 4 ancestral vision instead of predicts? What's your thoughts on AV as a means of CA in threshold decks?

All I know, is that with Counterbalance out I'd rather have a 2CC on top, rather than a 0CC.

I've done a 2/2 split with Predict and Strategic Planning-- mainly to bump up the sorcery count while still getting cards in the yard. So far the results have been really positive.

[aTn]

How come there's no discussion of the japanese list playing 4 ancestral vision instead of predicts? What's your thoughts on AV as a means of CA in threshold decks?

Do you have a link so we can read the list (thanks in advance) ?

[Henrik]

Of course, here you go:

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20026

[mackaber]

How come there's no discussion of the japanese list playing 4 ancestral vision instead of predicts? What's your thoughts on AV as a means of CA in threshold decks?

This has to do with AV's lacking synergy with the dec as a whole. The key idea of the cantrip base is to dig through the dec quickly to find what you need. AV does not do this. While it's a fine card I think it just does not belong in legacy.

[Henrik]

Another card popping up in top 8 lists lately is Back to Basics.

Example here:
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20277

What do you think of this? Is the inventor/player of the deck perhaps in this forum? I haven't tested it myself, but spontaneusly, besides being a cmc3 spell for balance, i could definitely see some MU's where it would come in handy. Landstill, for example.

[Henrik]

This has to do with AV's lacking synergy with the dec as a whole. The key idea of the cantrip base is to dig through the dec quickly to find what you need. AV does not do this. While it's a fine card I think it just does not belong in legacy.

As you can see in the posted list, the deck running AV plays a lot more instant counters and skip CB/top, which is actually a pretty clever way to utilize the actual cardadvantage and power of AV. While I'm not suggesting that everyone go skipping CB/top, I think you are too quick ti dismiss it, with standard arguments like "this is not legacy material". Fact is, the deck won a 53 person tournament, and the same deck has gone top 8 a couple of other times as well.

[Adan]

Another card popping up in top 8 lists lately is Back to Basics.

Example here:
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20277

What do you think of this? Is the inventor/player of the deck perhaps in this forum? I haven't tested it myself, but spontaneusly, besides being a cmc3 spell for balance, i could definitely see some MU's where it would come in handy. Landstill, for example.

There's no exact inventor. From what I heard, that list evolved from Der_imaginäre_Freund's list which was playing Enlightened Tutor for B2B, Needles and a singleton Oblivion Ring. Besides, it's Counterbalance No. 5.

Valdez took his list and removed Tutor and Needles for more Back to Basics and more cantrips. I dunno whether it's true, but Valdez then built it for Alex Kimpel and he then Top8ed frequently from that point on.

I was fascinated, yet a littlebit disappointed that I was not the one who "invented" that since I thought it was possible when I saw MoonThresh. =/

But I'll play it as well on Sunday, Back to Basics is often the card that wins suddenly.

[Citrus-God]

There's no exact inventor. From what I heard, that list evolved from Der_imaginäre_Freund's list which was playing Enlightened Tutor for B2B, Needles and a singleton Oblivion Ring. Besides, it's Counterbalance No. 5.

Valdez took his list and removed Tutor and Needles for more Back to Basics and more cantrips. I dunno whether it's true, but Valdez then built it for Alex Kimpel and he then Top8ed frequently from that point on.

I was fascinated, yet a littlebit disappointed that I was not the one who "invented" that since I thought it was possible when I saw MoonThresh. =/

But I'll play it as well on Sunday, Back to Basics is often the card that wins suddenly.

I also love how I'm the person who tried endorsing Enlighten Tutor... Nobody took me seriously for some odd reason, mainly because ETutor produces card disadvantage. I'd rather have a bomb than have card advantage, and Enlighten Tutor looks for those bombs. Besides that, I suggested it as a sideboard card. No way in hell is that thing going into the maindeck. [/end rant]

Anyways, Back to Basics is such a bomb. It should be played more frequently because every deck in the format is reliant on non-basics to function properly. Although, if you're running Enlighten Tutor, I believe that you should run Tsabo's Web in addition to B2B as well as Null Rod and Cursed Totem.

[Henrik]

I will try B2B myself next week.
I've also been thinking about E tutor, but I'll need some testing before going there...

[Gobo17]

As the person who played so well with the deck with B2B i must say it is sooo cool especially if there is so much Zoo and other stuff with much Duals as in my meta. Another thing is that you can play so easy against decks with much wastelands and such things due to the basics...I just hate the Dredge Match Up. Its normaly role over and die...yeah or you topdeck the Explosives or your opponent needs so much time that your Grunt can get active. Ok but in a meta full of dredge i just would play another deck(or crypts).

[aTn]

Of course, here you go:

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20026

Thanks a lot for the list.

I find it interesting, but I'm having a bit of trouble figuring out how fast you can get threshold (for Mongoose) in that built. At first glance, it seems kind of slow. I have the same a priori with recent UGW-Threshold lists that run the following cantrip base:

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Sensei's Divining Top.

Keep in mind I may be totally wrong since it's been around 6 months since I've played the deck. Playing 4 Ancestral Visions + 3 Spells Snares instead of, say, 4 Counterbalance + 3 Sensei's Divining Top also seems weird for UGW-Threshold.

In my "old" build, I used to play:

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3-4 Predict

which would help filter the deck for answers and also help get Threshold fast.

I've also noticed a lack of Gaddock Teeg in the recent sideboards. I really like him against control (Landstill in particular) and some combo decks (ANT and Belcher). Again, maybe the newer builds have something better to side-in for these match-ups (if they are present in the meta where you're playing).

Anyhow, these are all first impression, so I'll be glad to hear your comments.


I also love how I'm the person who tried endorsing Enlighten Tutor... Nobody took me seriously for some odd reason, mainly because ETutor produces card disadvantage. I'd rather have a bomb than have card advantage, and Enlighten Tutor looks for those bombs.

I totally approve your suggestion (and did also in the past). I don't think it's bad to sacrifice some card advantage for card selection. What would be your suggested SB and what specific weaknesses would you be trying to fix with E. Tutor ?

Sidenote

Since it's been a long time since I've played the deck, I'd like to know what you guys think of the Dreadstill match-up ?

[bigbear102]

Many arguments have been made against Ancestral Visions so far. I would say that one of the most important is that the game can easily be over before it has any effect whatsoever. It also does not contribute to thresh or tarmogoyf for 4 turns. Predict has the benefit of affecting the game state immediately and synergy with the rest of the cantrip package. It is also much better when facing people who decide that Enlightened Tutor is suddenly good again!

[Jak]

I wouldn't call needing a Top to make Predict good, synergy.

[raharu]

On card selection v. card advantage:

The format, as it progresses, is making card advantage less and less relevant. While the old axiom that "card Advantage Wins Games" is still valid, it's also true that holding a deck full of Mountain Goats isn't going to win you the game in the face of a lethal Tendrils on the stack or some other eminent threat. The individual strength of the cards matters more than how many of them you have now. Because this development has happened, Tutors and Cantrips are just about worth their weight in gold, because they give you faster access to format-defining bombs. While I personally don't see an incredible amount of E. Tutor bombs that would fit into thresh, outside of the obvious Counterbalance and the already discussed Back to Basics (and maybe Isochron Scepter in conjunction with Brainstorm and a few other maindeckable Scepter targets, which I wouldn't be able to suggest), it's still rather playable.

[Omega]

in my actual tournament play, mystical tutor (can easily be compared to E.tutor as a card disadvantage) happened to be quite good. I play it with singleton armageddon (which alone can seal a game : Drop a goyf/goose and geddon can end the game), singleton rushing river (which an do some pretty thing. Return 2 goyfs to opponent hand and end the game on my attack phase IE. Remove problematic artifact/enchantment.)
Right now, im thinking about playing a singleton Krosan Grip. There's just so many targets for that card, i think it can be relevant

Moreover, mystical tutor works really well with Predict and with CB. Countering Fact or fiction against Landstill (by fetching Geddon) and winning the game on my next turn is quite good.

I do agree that the tutors can be weak when you need the card NOW. Cantrip can make you get it (if you are lucky), tutors can't.

Robert

[mackaber]

Of course, here you go:

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20026

I've been stepping past my prejudices and tested the above dec and I must say I really like it. While you have some problems growing your goyfs and geese sometimes, the overall resilence of the manabase paired with the CA from visions really let's this baby roll rather smoothly. Also visions let's you mulligan much better. I've heavily tinkered with the sideboard and altered the manabase to a 10 fetch 4 basic 4 duals configuration to support the folllowing sideboard:

4 Meddling Mage (Mainly to replace dead md cards vs combo and up the clock)
3 Hydroblast
3 Krosan Grip
3 Tormod's crypt (Don't know if these are needed since Meddling mage is rather good vs LftL)
2 B2B

Any thoughts? Has anyone else tested the above ist? Specificly do you think 2 Enforcers are necesary? Also does anyone else still play meddling mage? If not why not?

[Captain Hammer]

On card selection v. card advantage:

The format, as it progresses, is making card advantage less and less relevant. While the old axiom that "card Advantage Wins Games" is still valid, it's also true that holding a deck full of Mountain Goats isn't going to win you the game in the face of a lethal Tendrils on the stack or some other eminent threat. The individual strength of the cards matters more than how many of them you have now. Because this development has happened, Tutors and Cantrips are just about worth their weight in gold, because they give you faster access to format-defining bombs. While I personally don't see an incredible amount of E. Tutor bombs that would fit into thresh, outside of the obvious Counterbalance and the already discussed Back to Basics (and maybe Isochron Scepter in conjunction with Brainstorm and a few other maindeckable Scepter targets, which I wouldn't be able to suggest), it's still rather playable.

That reasoning seems counterintuitive. As more and more of the cards you play are massive bombs, wouldn't it just mean that the more of them you draw, the better.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not endorsing Ancestral Visions in this deck. That makes very little sense to me as AV is a relatively slow card in a deck whose fundamental turn comes rather early on.

But Ancestral Visions absolutely does work stellarly in Mono Blue Control and could work very well in Landstill as well as both those decks are less aggro, more control than this deck, with a more delayed fundamental turn than this deck.

[mackaber]

What do you mean by fundamental turn? To me for aggro or combo decs = the turn you kill the goldfish. For control the turn you establish complete board control.
Since Threshold is and always will be an Agggrocontrol dec the fundamental turn can actually mean two different things for the dec or am I mistaken. At least that's how I've always played it. And actually I rarely ever kill before turn 5 with ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh and usually if I'm the control dec I want to establish board control by turn 4 or 5.

[bigbear102]

I wouldn't call needing a Top to make Predict good, synergy.


Nope, I wouldn't either. But predict is good with or without top, seing as it puts 2 cards in the yard, and can get cards in the yard early that might not normally get there, such as artifacts, enchantments, and creatures. I also seem to remember some synergy with some other cards in the deck. I'm not sure but I think most people still play Brainstorm and Ponder, tell me if I'm wrong.

In fact, I'm pretty sure Predict was touted long before Sensei's Divining Top was in the deck. Seeing as there are upwards of 11 cards in the deck that make predict better than normal, all of which are played before Predict, I would call that Synergy.

Also, with people beginning to want to play Enlightened Tutor, Predict becomes that much better. There are also a lot more Volrath's Strongholds and Mystical Tutors in the format than there have been.

I would personally play Predict over Ancestral Visions regardless of the format, just because I think it fits into this deck much better.

[Jaiminho]

Also, with people beginning to want to play Enlightened Tutor, Predict becomes that much better.

I need someone to explain to me how trading W + 1U + 2 cards for 2 unknown cards any good. Predict is good when it complements your cantrips by getting rid of unnecessary trash, thus providing even more card quality, and producing card advantage. Do not use Enlightened Tutor as an excuse to make Predict better and vice versa.

[Illissius]

No. Your opponent's Enlightened Tutor.

[raharu]

That reasoning seems counterintuitive. As more and more of the cards you play are massive bombs, wouldn't it just mean that the more of them you draw, the better.

...

But Ancestral Visions absolutely does work stellarly in Mono Blue Control and could work very well in Landstill as well as both those decks are less aggro, more control than this deck, with a more delayed fundamental turn than this deck.

Except that it doesn't. It's endorsed by a few players, but most of the players using the more effective Board-Oriented builds of MUC are using Impulse instead to grab their board-control bombs and drop them, because waiting isn't worth the wait (lol). Card selection, as a function of a card, is better than card advantage, because your cantrips cost less, and the bomb you get is going to get you more synthetic card advantage than FoF or AV or any other draw spell will.

[diffy]

I decided to play NQG/w at this month's Hassloch because I hadn't played it in quite a while - it turned out the correct choice, completely annihilating the field going 6-0-0 and 12:0 overall in games.
I played my standard build (list found here (http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=dgbs8px8_4hcj6v6g7&hl=en)), the build was terrific, as always, playing extremely smooth- and consistently.

Report found here (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=294137).
I wouldn't really change anything in the list right now - it played extremely well, the only problem sometimes being the lowish amount of cmc2 stuff for Counterbalance.

[aTn]

Der, I understand your deck packs a ton of cantrips, but has the low land count (16) ever brought problems (in particular against LD) ? Do you have to mulligan a lot (in principle cantrips help here, but I'm wondering in pratice if it turns out to be true) ?

[diffy]

I understand your deck packs a ton of cantrips, but has the low land count (16) ever brought problems (in particular against LD) ? Do you have to mulligan a lot (in principle cantrips help here, but I'm wondering in pratice if it turns out to be true)?

I didn't mulligan all tournament long, and in testing prior to the event I took exceptionally few mulligans too - you can basically keep any hand with a land and a cantrip as you're sure to cantrip into at least one other land or stuff you can cast with only one land on the board.
The only time during the tournament I considered taking a mulligan was against Aggro Loam where my hand consisted of Counterbalance, some cantrips, Daze, Jotun Grunt, Forest and Plains and I could even afford keeping that hand because I had 15 outs for a land and 15 outs for something I could cast without drawing further lands, giving me too good odds not to keep a hand with two match winners on it, especially since I had 2+ turns to draw any of my outs.
That kind of hand is extremely rare though.

Despite the lower landcount, the manabase is actually more stable than your average NQG build's due to playing loads of basics making you immune to the most common form of land-hate (i.e. Blood Moon, Back to Basics, Wastelands etc.).
Also, playing loads of cantrips makes you exceptionally hard to screw, even if you're not playing infinite basics.

[aTn]

Thanks for the answer (and congratulations on you finish... just read your nice report). I'll definitely give your build a try.

Did you test against UR-Dreadstill ? I guess the Stifles (and Trickbinds) could be annoying - considering your manabase packs 8 fetches and only 16 lands.

I'm also wondering about the Landstill-It's the Fear match-ups. I guess B2B should be game breaking - but in practice do you get to resolve one most games ?

Did you test against Eva Green, Team America and Sui-B ? If so, how was it ?

Last but not least, the random fast aggro match-up. From experience with other UGW-Threshold builds, I'd say the deck has problems in theses types of match-ups. Does Dueling Grounds totally answer the "swarming" and "no mass removal" problems ?

[raharu]

Last but not least, the random fast aggro match-up. From experience with other UGW-Threshold builds, I'd say the deck has problems in theses types of match-ups. Does Dueling Grounds totally answer the "swarming" and "no mass removal" problems ?

Really? Personally, I've never seen UGw have a bad Goblins MU, at least not post board, and BEB helps immensely against 90% of the fast agro you'll see (Goyf Sligh, RGw Zoo, etc.). I've seen thresh get occasionally raep'd by Affinity god-hands, but that happens to the best of us, amirite? Also, Dueling Grounds is pretty great against fast agro, but I do wonder how the 2 'Grounds plan is working. I've always seen it played as at least a 3-of, all being hard copies.

[aTn]

Before Goyf, Goblins was no walk in the park... but now (post-Goyf) I agree with you.

In my experience, Affinity is not a good MU for UGW-Threshold. Maybe my opponents got the nuts (but I've played that match-up a lot)...

I was talking more about decks like Angel Stompy-Death and Taxes and other fast aggro decks which pack about twice (or more) creatures than UGW-Threshold; they don't represent a big percentage of my metagame, but they are part of the randomness that rears it's ugly head in big tournaments.

[Adan]

In my experience, Affinity is not a good MU for UGW-Threshold. Maybe my opponents got the nuts (but I've played that match-up a lot)...

I found Affinity to be an easy matchup as you have Pithing Needle against Plating and Ravager and StoPs against Disciple of the Vault. The rest of the deck is laughable anyway as you have the bigger guys. And actually everything but Frogmites and Myr Enforcers can be hit by Counterbalance.

Playing Needle on Ravager or Cranial Plating are the 2 main things to consider in that matchup. The alternative would be to simply keep those off the table. If you can accomplish that, you're safe. Depending on the situation, I'd also try not letting them resolve Thoughtcast as they will then go out-of-gas like VERY fast.

Postboard you have KGrips and maybe even Trygon Predator which are insane.

[aTn]

I found Affinity to be an easy matchup as you have Pithing Needle against Plating and Ravager and StoPs against Disciple of the Vault. The rest of the deck is laughable anyway as you have the bigger guys. And actually everything but Frogmites and Myr Enforcers can be hit by Counterbalance.

Playing Needle on Ravager or Cranial Plating are the 2 main things to consider in that matchup. The alternative would be to simply keep those off the table. If you can accomplish that, you're safe. Depending on the situation, I'd also try not letting them resolve Thoughtcast as they will then go out-of-gas like VERY fast.

Postboard you have KGrips and maybe even Trygon Predator which are insane.

I agree with you. I was talking about most UGW-Threshold builds (which these days don't seem to play Needle MD - with the exception of Der's build).

Anyhow, I'll definitely test Der's build since it's too sexy to ignore.

[mackaber]

I didn't mulligan all tournament long, and in testing prior to the event I took exceptionally few mulligans too - you can basically keep any hand with a land and a cantrip as you're sure to cantrip into at least one other land or stuff you can cast with only one land on the board.


Just a little nitpick here: U actually have to draw a blue source of which you only have 14 in the dec. Also I can assure you that your odds of taking 0 mulligans in 12 games are rather low.
It's hard to argue with results (which your list or derivates thereof are puting up) but in the progenitor days of the dec 2005ish most lists were runing 10-12 1 mana cantrips and 3-4 two mana cantrips and 17-18 lands was the consensus correct landcount with some people running non blue basics and some doing without, Goblins was much more relevant then though.
Also while I agree that running Basic lands in the dec is a necesecity nowadays (not just because of your own b2b) it does not make your mana base more resilient to wasteland stifle decs, since as soon as you have one basic out it becomes that much easier to srew you of of one of your colors. Especially considering TA's recent rise to prominance I relly wouldn't leave home without tthat 17th land anymore.

[aTn]

Also while I agree that running Basic lands in the dec is a necesecity nowadays (not just because of your own b2b) it does not make your mana base more resilient to wasteland stifle decs, since as soon as you have one basic out it becomes that much easier to srew you of of one of your colors. Especially considering TA's recent rise to prominance I relly wouldn't leave home without tthat 17th land anymore.

Great post Mackaber, you summed up my concerns. In particular, after testing, I have to say that Stifle + Wasteland decks (Dreadstill in particular) can screw your gameplan. That's why I've added land number 17.

[Maveric78f]

If you really wanted to tackle with this issue of Threshold, you would not raise your land count to 17 but to 19 or 20. If you think that your cantrips give you the ability to find your lands, it would also provide you with the ability to refuse them. Your main problem is regarding stifle, because if you get stifled you don't have the possibility to cantrip to find another one, and that's a real issue for the deck.

I'm an adept of dreadfish, and although I admit I'm a bit hardcore considering the mana denial (I play 4*wasteland, 4*stifle, 4*rishadan port and 3*trickbind), I win 2/3 of my threshold games by manadenying the threshold player. And where I play (in France), the land count norm for threshold is rather 18 than 17.

[mackaber]

Great post Mackaber, you summed up my concerns. In particular, after testing, I have to say that Stifle + Wasteland decks (Dreadstill in particular) can screw your gameplan. That's why I've added land number 17.
I'm assuming you cut the portent?

[Henrik]

@ landcount
Personally, I prefer to play 18 lands, although I'm considering going down to 17 since I get flooded a little bit to often. This is what I will try when I test DIF's list as well (-portent), because hell yeah, I also want to try that list. As someone stated before me, it looks too sexy to ignore.

@ Der Imaginäre Freund
Grunt is obviously a great answer to loam decks, but what is your boarding/play-strategy against ichorid. I note that you have no crypts or anything similar in the board. Ooh, how I hate that deck...

[diffy]

Grunt is obviously a great answer to loam decks, but what is your boarding/play-strategy against ichorid. I note that you have no crypts or anything similar in the board.

Playing against Ichorid is very straightforward: you just look how many mulligans they take and if they don't happen to mulligan into oblivion just concede and use the time in some more productive way, like beating your head against a wall or anything similar - you just can't win this matchup without dedicating loads of sideboard slots to it, and I'm not set to butcher my board, taking in loads of somewhat narrow stuff (Crypts and similar) only to have a better (but still not good at all) matchup against this one deck that accounts for not much of the metagame anyway.
If you really want to waste your time, you could always try boarding:
-2 Predict
-1 Sensei's Divining Top
-1 Back to Basics
-1 Daze
-1 Oblivion Ring
+2 Jotun Grunt
+1 Dueling Grounds
+1 Engineered Explosives
+2 Gaddock Teeg
Don't expect winning more than one game out of five though.



You actually have to draw a blue source of which you only have 14 in the deck.


For a hand to be keepable, you have to draw either one of your blue sources or a non-blue source coupled with a Sensei's Divining Top, not taking into account the odd hand starring the two non blue basics but otherwise loads of decent stuff like multiple critters and Forces.
According to the MWS percentage generator, you have at least one of your non-blue sources in 89% of the starting hands and the Top + non blue basic combination in another 6% of your opening hands making 95% of your opening seven at least theoretically keepable.
Please tell me if anything is terribly wrong with MWS's maths, but it seems pretty reasonable to me.

I will not disagree with the fact that Stifle is often bad news, but I will have to stress that Stifle is basically the only land destruction I fear because any other means will also make the opponent loose tempo meaning that you have more time to build up pressure and/or find more lands. Land destruction just doesn't work as well against this deck as it does against random control for three main reasons: first of all, you can work with very few lands on the table, secondly, you can actually build up pressure while the opponent tries to disrupt you and lastly, you have a much higher (virtual) land count than most other decks meaning that in the end you'll always find all the lands you need. The scenario quite frequently is that your opponent disrupts you, you either have some mild pressure on the board (Nimble Mongoose being best at this job) meaning that he'll eventually have to stop disrupting you in order to deal with that random thing nibbling at his life total, or that he can't keep up disrupting you and playing threats at the same time meaning that you have infinite time to find lands/threats/protection as your opponent will have to chose between playing disruption or threats (if he goes for the threats, all the easier).
I have not yet tested or played against Team America though.

[Shugyosha]

Stifle+Wasteland Threshold consistently beats 3 colored decks with even 20-24 lands (like Landstill) when the manadenial plan pans out as planned. I don't think there is anything you can do against it in Threshold that wouldn't change the deck considerably (read: makes it bad). Playing basics is just good in the meta overall and with alot of digging (especially Top) its no problem to get out of a color screw. Even if it is only for one turn (due to Wasteland) it usually is enough to cast the critical spell like Swords or Goyf.

@Ichorid: Geek (Gaddock Teeg) is another body against Ichorid as well as preventing Dread Return and late Breakthroughs/CotV. Problem is that it prevents your own Explosives. I would take that risk, though.

[Nihil Credo]

If you really want to waste your time, you could always try boarding:
-2 Predict
-1 Sensei's Divining Top
-1 Back to Basics
-1 Daze
-1 Oblivion Ring
+2 Jotun Grunt
+1 Dueling Grounds
+1 Engineered Explosives
+2 Gaddock Teeg

-1 Counterbalance +1 Daze, I'd say. Especially on g2 where you're probably going to be on the play, with only 2 Tops and far better E-Tutor targets.

[mackaber]

For a hand to be keepable, you have to draw either one of your blue sources or a non-blue source coupled with a Sensei's Divining Top, not taking into account the odd hand starring the two non blue basics but otherwise loads of decent stuff like multiple critters and Forces.
According to the MWS percentage generator, you have at least one of your non-blue sources in 89% of the starting hands and the Top + non blue basic combination in another 6% of your opening hands making 95% of your opening seven at least theoretically keepable.
Please tell me if anything is terribly wrong with MWS's maths, but it seems pretty reasonable to me.

I will not disagree with the fact that Stifle is often bad news, but I will have to stress that Stifle is basically the only land destruction I fear because any other means will also make the opponent loose tempo meaning that you have more time to build up pressure and/or find more lands. Land destruction just doesn't work as well against this deck as it does against random control for three main reasons: first of all, you can work with very few lands on the table, secondly, you can actually build up pressure while the opponent tries to disrupt you and lastly, you have a much higher (virtual) land count than most other decks meaning that in the end you'll always find all the lands you need. The scenario quite frequently is that your opponent disrupts you, you either have some mild pressure on the board (Nimble Mongoose being best at this job) meaning that he'll eventually have to stop disrupting you in order to deal with that random thing nibbling at his life total, or that he can't keep up disrupting you and playing threats at the same time meaning that you have infinite time to find lands/threats/protection as your opponent will have to chose between playing disruption or threats (if he goes for the threats, all the easier).
I have not yet tested or played against Team America though.

Nice post so here we go:
@ math: Not quite sure how you arrived at those numbers but I'm pretty sure you can't add the 6% to the 89 %. In any case being a statistics geek here's a little analysis using MWS:

10000 trials with 14 lands:
0 Land(s): 976 times (9,76%)
1 Land(s): 2876 times (28,76%)
2 Land(s): 3438 times (34,38%)
3 Land(s): 1950 times (19,5%)
4 Land(s): 621 times (6,21%)
5 Land(s): 130 times (1,3%)
6 Land(s): 9 times (0,09%)
7 Land(s): 0 times (0%)

So in roughly ten percent of all games you'll be without U.

10000 trials with 16 lands:
0 Land(s): 707 times (7,07%)
1 Land(s): 2348 times (23,48%)
2 Land(s): 3294 times (32,94%)
3 Land(s): 2416 times (24,16%)
4 Land(s): 1000 times (10%)
5 Land(s): 208 times (2,08%)
6 Land(s): 26 times (0,26%)
7 Land(s): 1 times (0,01%)

So in roughly 2.6 percent of all cases one of those sole lands will be forest or plains multiply that by the probability of having a 3-of in your starting hand and it seems as if you'll be mulling around 9 to ten percent of your hands because they have 0 u sources or the nonblue/top combo, furthermore about 12 per cent of hands will contain 4 or more lands.
Aditionally there's quite a few hands that are plain unkeepable (the good ol 4 mongoose draw is the prime example) and you'll likely have to mull between 20-30% of starting hands (I'm a 30 per cent guy since I have advanced beyon the stage of infinite scrubdom that is: see lands and spells=keep).

On keeping Top and basic: I'd argue that in at least 50% of the cases this is strictly wrong since your spending far too much time and are at a far too high risk of not finding the second land (about 15 % on the play), all the while casting nuffing but force. Of course this is MU and draw dependent.

On stifle wasteland. The problem does not come up when they are spending tempo to steal your tempo. This is something that is actually very good for you if you can make additional land drops but god forbid the dual just wasted or the fetch stifled was your only mana source in the starting hand (a rather likely scenario as in a vacuum one landers are very good) you might have just lost the game since the chances of your top card being a land are about 30 percent and should you miss the land drop more than once you are almost positively dead against Tempotresh, TA or Dreadstill.

[JRR]

A friend of mine just got into Magic (after much nagging on my part) and he saw Threshold and really enjoyed the cards and the play style, so for Christmas I built him a deck that I have aptly named 'baby threshold.' The list below shows what I am giving him as a starting point to expand the deck. It runs pretty well most of the time, but its obvious this isn't true thresh. In the end the deck would run about $30 had I bought all the cards. What do you guys think of this as a starter threshold?

Lands (20)
4 Terramorphic Expanse
2 Bant Panorma
4 Seaside Citadel
5 Island
3 Forest
2 Plains

Creatures (10)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
2 Mystic Enforcer

Spells (24)
4 Rune Snag
4 Daze
4 Bant Charm
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Predict

Enchantments (6)
4 Oblivion Ring
2 Hoofprints of the Stag

[Omega]

If you can afford to give a "bigger gift"

Get 2-3 sensei's divining top and 3 counterbalance. The deck will be way better :)

Not a lot to say on lands. If you have painlands, they will probably help. Otherwise, i think it is fine the way it is. City of brass can be interesting too.

The draw is good enough : 4 brainstorm, 4 ponder and 4 predict.

Bant charm looks like a weak choice. Swords to plowshare would be better, but they are more expensive

Maybe some counterspell can help. Or spellsnare instead of rune snag

otherwise, your baby ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh is good. I think he can win some tournament with it and build his collcetion slowly. Tell him to get fetches and duals first. Force of will obviosuly. But i always prefer stability first.
Robert

[chokin]

@JRR - That's awfully nice of you. Looks good for $30. Yavimaya Coasts are ~5 a piece, and Breeding Pools are ~10. That's not bad for either for budget if he's not ready for real duals. Bant Charm does kinda suck. Condemn is a good replacement for STP. Maybe use a couple Charm as utility (like swap a land and an ORing for 2 Charms), but run 4 Condemn.

[Shugyosha]

Lands (20)
4 Terramorphic Expanse
2 Bant Panorma
4 Seaside Citadel
5 Island
3 Forest
2 Plains

Creatures (10)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
2 Mystic Enforcer

Spells (24)
4 Rune Snag
4 Daze
4 Bant Charm
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Predict

Enchantments (6)
4 Oblivion Ring
2 Hoofprints of the Stag

Yes, this deck needs at least Tops. Bant Charm is rather clunky in here with its mana cost so I would say:

-4 Charm
-2 Predict

+3 Top
+3 Counterbalance

The other possible route is budget Moon Thresh which is usually a better alternative but its more expensive I guess.

[JRR]

Thanks for the suggestions and I agree for the most part with everything you had to say, but this was almost 100% from my own cards and I didn't have any tops or counterbalance... I think I own a total of one of each of those.

Comdemn is great but again, I don't own more than 1 of these.

As far Rne Snage vs. Counterspell, Rune Snage is better because hitting UU without duals is a lot harder and Rune Snag gets better the more you toss to the yard, so that was my reasoning there.

I plan on giving him suggestions on where to go next with the deck and land was my first place to point him. A few shock duals would go a long way here and he makes plenty good money, so I think he can afford to buy the Swords for the deck.

Thanks everyone for your input.

[undone]

I decided to play NQG/w at this month's Hassloch because I hadn't played it in quite a while - it turned out the correct choice, completely annihilating the field going 6-0-0 and 12:0 overall in games.
I played my standard build (list found here (http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=dgbs8px8_4hcj6v6g7&hl=en)), the build was terrific, as always, playing extremely smooth- and consistently.

Report found here (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=294137).
I wouldn't really change anything in the list right now - it played extremely well, the only problem sometimes being the lowish amount of cmc2 stuff for Counterbalance.


Things I have tryied(just me as the build looks super solid)

1) Cut enforcer for hoofprints of the stag, gives you a 2 drop for CB and more importantly is key to winning the threshold mirror as its a man factory and a win con that can be serched for with the tutor. Yes BtB can win the mirror but this WILL win if it resolves because geese cant get past it and 2 can deal with goyfs, and eventualy you get to 4-5 of them and can alpha strike over head. As an additional note these make Top #2 not dead :D

2) Cut 1 swords for a threads, you already have O ring for additional removal if it matters but this makes your opponents dreadnaught your instant win, bob a bomb, and more goyfs are always good. I really like the 3 swords 1 threads split which is even better with a tutor.

3) I really hate 16 lands because one stifle statisticaly screws you. (sink hole is your enemy too) so I cut the portent for an extra trop.

Your deck has 6 outs to tombstalker which is nice and mine only has 4 but my deck has better outs to bob, goyf, dreadnaught, and goose.

[undone]

Is 16 lands+ portent better vs team america or is 17 better?

How can we improve the burn matchup more I already run 5 blast effects post board?

How would you put the team america matchup percentage wise?

Is Oblivion ring or repeal better?

[b4r0n]

Is 16 lands+ portent better vs team america or is 17 better?

How can we improve the burn matchup more I already run 5 blast effects post board?

How would you put the team america matchup percentage wise?

Is Oblivion ring or repeal better?

16 lands would be the absolute bare minimum (assuming they all tap for blue), but I personally think that's too few. I don't like seeing 1 land hands too much, even if I have the cantrips to find the second land. I'd rather be using my cantrips to find business spells. Also, if you're running CB/Top (which you should), then you'll want the extra land to support that since it can be pretty mana intensive.

The burn matchup should be pretty good since you have CB/Top, Hydroblasts, and StPs. I suppose you could run COP: Red in the board if you're still scared of that matchup, but it should be pretty solid. Again, having an extra land will help you to dig for CB/Top rather than for lands.

I'd say that Team America is slightly unfavorable, but relatively even. Maybe 45-55, depending on the playskill of the players? If you run Enforcers (which you should), then you have the ultimate trump, but it's difficult to reach 4+ mana to play it and dodge Daze. CB/Top is decent against them, but not terrific... you're pretty kold to Tombstalker and Snuff Out. Postboard it doesn't really get much better for you, as they can bring in Edicts to supplement Snuff Out and win Goyf wars. So maybe 40-60 postboard?

I wouldn't play Ring or Repeal. Both are pretty terrible. But of the two, Ring is better.

[Jaiminho]

I'd say that Team America is slightly unfavorable, but relatively even. Maybe 45-55, depending on the playskill of the players? If you run Enforcers (which you should), then you have the ultimate trump, but it's difficult to reach 4+ mana to play it and dodge Daze. CB/Top is decent against them, but not terrific... you're pretty kold to Tombstalker and Snuff Out. Postboard it doesn't really get much better for you, as they can bring in Edicts to supplement Snuff Out and win Goyf wars. So maybe 40-60 postboard

I'd risk saying Sinkholeless Team America is favorable to us, since you will end up having mana to play things and if you set CB+Top, game is over, unless there's a threat you can't handle. Running STP kind of nullifies that last topic, though.

[diffy]

So, I played NQG/w (same list as in Hassloch (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11901) with -1 Trygon Predator +1 Engineered Explosives in Sideboard) at a random tournament in Speyer. This was mainly due to the guy with my team's card pool for Survival Elves (which is just such a sick deck) being savagely drunk and therefore in suck-out/sleep mode. Nevertheless, it was once again a solid meta-choice. With only 27 people showing up, turnout was horrible and therefore led to a lower price payout (originality they wanted to give out an IPod) and no top8 being played out.
I piloted the deck to a solid 4-1 i.e. third place. As I won't write a detailed report (because all the rounds were incredibly boring with close to no unexpected wins/losses), here's a short overview of my rounds:

Round 1 vs. Team-Mate Stefan 'spirit of the wretch' Czolk with Red Counterbalance Threshold

It sucks being paired so early - due to top8 not being played out, basically one will knock the other out of contention for prizes, with a draw harming both of us. Also, the matchup is just so much fun to play... [/sarcasm].

Game 1: I get a Counterbalance and... win?
Game 2: He gets a Counterbalance and... guess what... wins?
Although the games did offer some interaction and choices to be made as well as interesting plays, resolving Counterbalance did just neglect all the previous strategic work/good plays and pretty much guaranteed the win. Who would have thought...
Game 3: None of us resolves a Counterbalance so the one with the better beaters (i.e. Mystic Enforcer) and real removal (i.e. Swords to Plowshares) wins.

One of the games did also involve an Engineered Explosives savagely turning a game around by trading for his board of Counterbalance and Tarmogoyf.

Boarding Strategy:
-4 Daze
-2 Pithing Needle
-1 Back to Basics (because his build stars loads of fetchlands as well as an Island and a Forest)
+2 Jotun Grunt
+2 Krosan Grip
+1 Trygon Predator
+2 Eningeered Explosives

Round 2 vs. Harrald David with RGB Aggro Loam

Game 1: He draws infinite guys (like double Countryside Crusher, double Terravore, Tarmogoyf and Dark Confidant) and wins easily from there on, overwhelming any resistance I can put up. I guess Resistance is futile after all, this loss ending my "undefeated against 'now most mainstream.deck in Germany' aka. Aggro Loam" spree.
Game 2: I get an early Tarmogoyf. As him dredging Life from the Loam put a Mox Diamond into his graveyard, and due to him handling my Counterbalance (with Burning Wish for Reverent Silence), the Goyf is huge and just kills him before he can get past my light disruption suite (Daze + Force). Back to Basics generating infinite tempo advantage did also help some.
Game 3: He Mulligans once and therefore has a slow start. I generate some Tarmo-Advantage, dropping two of my own and send his one farming. I proceed to win from there on - the only damage I took this game was from my Fetchlands (4) and Forces (1).
Aggro Loam's (non Combo) Achilles Heel: it just can't handle fat guys. Once again: who would have thought...?

Boarding Strategy:
-2 Predict
-2 Pithing Needle
-3 Daze
+2 Jotun Grunt
+2 Engineered Explosives
+3 Hydroblast

Round 3 vs. Tobias Ball with RBG Aggro Loam

Game 1: After me Forcing an early Chalice of the Void, the game drags out and eventually gets incredibly stalled with me having to Enlightened Tutor for Sensei's Divining Top for business (obviously then revealing double Top among the top3 cards - pile shuffling does not always help apparently) and my Tarmogoyfs staring at his Tarmogoyf and Countryside Crusher. Eventually he finds a Terravore - I uphold the stall by dropping Tarmoygoyfs n°3 and 4 as well as a Nimble Mongoose. He eventually finds a Seismic Assault and wins against the stalled board from there on. Surprise!
Game 2: He drops a first turn Dark Confidant, I have second turn Counter-Top revealing me Back to Basics, Oblivion Ring and a random one costed card which is sweet as it denies him off Crushers and Vores, the biggest threats in the matchup. Incidentally he decides to drop double Tarmoygof and double Dark Confidant - I can't manage to find a two-costed card for any one of them and just loose from there on.

Boarding Strategy: see above

Round 4 vs. Felix 'Brehn' Andraschko with 5c Threshold

Game 1: Blahblah 5c Threshold is so incredibly favoured in the mirror because of Thoughtseize BlahBlahblah *Drops Back to Basics* blahblah, game 2.
Game 2: He gets a Counterbalance and...
Game 3: I get a Counterbalance and... (more detailed version: I get a midgame Couterbalance, but he has double Nimble Mongoose + Jotun Grunt on the board - not the best combo but still solid. On the other hand, I have two Tarmogoyfs and enough life to just live until the Grunt has died to then win.)

Boarding Strategy:
-4 Daze
-2 Pithing Needle
+2 Krosan Grip
+2 Jotun Grunt
+2 Engineered Explosives

Round 5 vs. David Griva with Faerie Stompy

Game 1: He keeps the 1 Land, 1 Mox, 1 Chalice hand, Chalice doesn't resolve - he looses from there on because his manabase is inconsistent (i.e. he doesn't draw a third manasource for two turns in which a Tarmogoyf has put him way too far behind in the race).
Game 2: I get a quick double-Tarmogoyf-Advantage which he stalls a little with Tormod's Crypt (singleton main he didn't take out). I then proceed to completely dominate the game, gripping his Chalice, Oblivion Ringing his Sea Drake (creating massive tempo-advantage along the way), growing the Tarmogoyfs to a decent size again, forcing a Serendib Efreet, Dazing a Glen Elendra Archmage, and round-head-kicking him to death while he's lying on the floor.

Boarding Strategy:
-4 Counterbalance
-1 Enlightened Tutor
-1 Nimble Mongoose
+1 Jotun Grunt (anti-Chalice measure)
+2 Engineered Explosives
+1 Trygon Predator
+2 Krosan Grip

Engineered Explosives and Oblivion Ring were MVPs all day long, being all-around awesome any time I drew them( due to not being clunky and due to not being dead. Ever.).
In fact, Oblivion Ring was so sexy every time I drew him that I decided to add a second one to my board, removing the 1off Duelling Grounds which is reasonable because Engineered Explosives and more spot removal do already go a long way against random aggressive decks while being more versatile at the same time.



16 lands would be the absolute bare minimum (assuming they all tap for blue), but I personally think that's too few. I don't like seeing 1 land hands too much, even if I have the cantrips to find the second land. I'd rather be using my cantrips to find business spells. Also, if you're running CB/Top (which you should), then you'll want the extra land to support that since it can be pretty mana intensive.


Even with 16 lands you still get flooded very regularly in the matchups where your manabase isn't attacked, so that depending on your metagame, 16 is more than enough.
Also, you have to keep in mind that a 16 land, 3+ Basics manabase is way more resilient to land destruction than a 17+ land base with only ~1 Basic, making the choice even more understandable... overall, I'm extremely satisfied with my current configuration of 8 Fetchlands, 4 Duals and 4 Basics: I just can't recall the last game I had some serious trouble with the manabase, it lets you ignore loads of hate that's thrown at you and allows for Back to Basics shenanigans.



I wouldn't play Ring or Repeal. Both are pretty terrible. But of the two, Ring is better.

Actually I found Oblivion Ring to be totally awesome due to its flexibility and have added a second copy to my Sideboard:
In the main, having access to more 'hard' removal is decent, especially if that removal has the added bonus of being a solution to literally everything that could ever cause you any trouble.
It is exactly this flexibility that makes it an awesome board-in, too. In many borderline matchups, you pretty much fold to a single card (like for instance Aggro Loam's Chalice of the Void) but can't afford to bring in many conditional cards only to address this problem because you'd be weakening your chance at winning if they happen to not get their gamebreaker to a point at which you won't win the postboard games even if they don't have their gamebreaker. Oblivion Ring fixes this problem by serving double duty as removal.



Is 16 lands+ portent better vs team america or is 17 better?


17. More real lands (as in non-fetchies) are very much appreciated in the face of Stifle.



How can we improve the burn matchup more I already run 5 blast effects post board?


How come you've got a problem with burn?
You already play CounterTop which is incredible against them, and bring in even more hate postboard... don't clutter your board with more stuff against an already good matchup - it will only hurt all your other games.



Is Oblivion ring or repeal better?


Oblivion Ring is much better if you play Enlightened Tutor and probably still is if you don't: I play this deck very controlling meaning that I don't want to have to deal with stuff twice in order to get rid of it.





If you really want to waste your time, you could always try boarding:
-2 Predict
-1 Sensei's Divining Top
-1 Back to Basics
-1 Daze
-1 Oblivion Ring
+2 Jotun Grunt
+1 Dueling Grounds
+1 Engineered Explosives
+2 Gaddock Teeg

-1 Counterbalance +1 Daze, I'd say. Especially on g2 where you're probably going to be on the play, with only 2 Tops and far better E-Tutor targets.

What he said.



[...]Snip[...]


Interesting thing on the maths there, it's a pity that statistics aren't taught until right before finals at my school - would you mind doing the same calculations again, for 17 lands? I'm just curious if the difference in percentages of bad hands and mulligans goes down enough to justify getting flooded (this is a serious issue for me as it comes up like always in testing and tournament play) in the matchups where your manabase isn't under attack.



1) Cut enforcer for hoofprints of the stag, gives you a 2 drop for CB and more importantly is key to winning the threshold mirror as its a man factory and a win con that can be serched for with the tutor. Yes BtB can win the mirror but this WILL win if it resolves because geese cant get past it and 2 can deal with goyfs, and eventualy you get to 4-5 of them and can alpha strike over head. As an additional note these make Top #2 not dead :D


Let me make this clear: I hate Hoofprints.
It's a continuous investment, incredibly slow, does not affect the board like at all when you play it, is susceptible to Counterbalance (and Engineered Explosives, along the way) etc.
Now compare this to Mystic Enforcer: one time investment, big guy who can block the turn you played him, much unlike Hoofprints, and, more importantly, attack for infinite on the next turn (again, unlike Hoofprints). Also, he does single-handedly win otherwise borderline matchups like The Rock or similar due to him having protection from black (and a converted mana cost higher than 3) - they just play in a totally different league.
The fact that Hoofprints of the Stag streamlines the curve for Counterbalance can be a good thing, especially since the deck is currently running low on stuff in the two mana sector, but at the same time will also weaken your games against Counterbalance (big issue). Also, this little added bonus does in no way make up for the lack of power of Hoofprints if compared to Enforcer.



2) Cut 1 swords for a threads, you already have O ring for additional removal if it matters but this makes your opponents dreadnaught your instant win, bob a bomb, and more goyfs are always good. I really like the 3 swords 1 threads split which is even better with a tutor.


I remember some German doing this quite some time ago. I hated it back then because I always felt the Threads being way too clunky, especially if compared to the supper cost-efficient Swords. Also, I'm not fond of narrow cards in a deck with very little to no card advantage. The double blue cost is another drawback of Threads that is not to be under-estimated, especially not in the 16 lands, 2 off-colour basics builds.



3) I really hate 16 lands because one stifle statisticaly screws you. (sink hole is your enemy too) so I cut the portent for an extra trop.


Stifle is bad news, agreed. You can, however, play around Stifle to a certain extent by making them waste their tempo too. This is done by sitting on your fetches which will make them having to always keep one mana open if they want to be consequent in screwing you which delays their gameplan by some. You can then use this time to draw (or cantrip with already existing lands) into more lands.
Sinkhole isn't all that bad because the land has already fulfilled its duty if you used it once (i.e. you have a threat on the board or cantriped into more lands). If you do desperately need that land, keep in mind that Daze is fantastic against Sinkhole, too.

[b4r0n]

Even with 16 lands you still get flooded very regularly in the matchups where your manabase isn't attacked, so that depending on your metagame, 16 is more than enough.
Also, you have to keep in mind that a 16 land, 3+ Basics manabase is way more resilient to land destruction than a 17+ land base with only ~1 Basic, making the choice even more understandable... overall, I'm extremely satisfied with my current configuration of 8 Fetchlands, 4 Duals and 4 Basics: I just can't recall the last game I had some serious trouble with the manabase, it lets you ignore loads of hate that's thrown at you and allows for Back to Basics shenanigans.

It's possible to get land flooded with any amount of land. However, I think the probability of getting land screwed with 16 lands is a little higher than I feel comfortable with. I guess it's a matter of personal preference, but I wouldn't run less than 16 blue sources. Like I said before, I'd much rather use my cantrips to find business than dig for land.

For reference, this is my manabase:

4 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
2 Island
1 Forest

I haven't had any trouble with it at all. I haven't found the need for a basic Plains, but if I felt that it was necessary to add it I would probably consider going up to 18 lands (and dropping a Tundra for another basic Island).


Actually I found Oblivion Ring to be totally awesome due to its flexibility and have added a second copy to my Sideboard:
In the main, having access to more 'hard' removal is decent, especially if that removal has the added bonus of being a solution to literally everything that could ever cause you any trouble.
It is exactly this flexibility that makes it an awesome board-in, too. In many borderline matchups, you pretty much fold to a single card (like for instance Aggro Loam's Chalice of the Void) but can't afford to bring in many conditional cards only to address this problem because you'd be weakening your chance at winning if they happen to not get their gamebreaker to a point at which you won't win the postboard games even if they don't have their gamebreaker. Oblivion Ring fixes this problem by serving double duty as removal.

While Oblivion Ring does serve as additional removal, I don't think that it's really worth running, especially in the sideboard. Every deck with green is going to be bringing in Krosan Grip against you, and O-Ring is yet another target for Grip. Threads of Disloyalty runs into the same problem, which is why I don't use it. I'd much rather have Engineered Explosives in that spot, since it also dodges CB, can hit almost anything you'd want to hit, and can net you card advantage. However, I don't run Enlightened Tutor, so I guess we're comparing apples and oranges here.

Oh, and congrats on your finish!

[Ironstickman]

Hi,
If counterbalance is so game-breaking in these aggro-control match-ups, why not try to fit in spell snare as dreadstill does?(instead of needles in case shutting down removal is not that necessary)
It also gives you more answers against opp. goyf/confi etc etc which is always possitive:cool:

[Adan]

Hi,
If counterbalance is so game-breaking in these aggro-control match-ups, why not try to fit in spell snare as dreadstill does?(instead of needles in case shutting down removal is not that necessary)
It also gives you more answers against opp. goyf/confi etc etc which is always possitive:cool:

That's possible. As far as I remember, someone at the Worlds 2007 SE played a NQGw that looked exactly like DerF's and my list, except that he ran 3 Spell Snares instead of 3 Needles.

The Hatfields also had a build which played 2 Counterspells and 0 Needles (It somehow vanished from this board, though. I just remember it having 2 Counterspells main, 4 Tormod's Crypt SB and I also think it had some Tivadar's Crusades in the SB...).

edit: found it:


It may suprise you that what the Hatfields have been up to lately, is actually running Counterbalance-Top maindeck.

I have some lists used not too long ago by both Hatfield brothers.

Here's Alix list that he Top 8ed a DLD in Syracuse with;



// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [RAV] Island (1)
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [B] Tundra
4 [U] Tropical Island
1 [IA] Forest (2)

// Creatures
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [TSB] Mystic Enforcer

// Spells
3 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [R] Counterspell
4 [OV] Swords to Plowshares
4 [OD] Predict
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [LRW] Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 2 [U] Control Magic
SB: 2 [PLC] Seal of Primordium
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [OV] Hydroblast
SB: 2 [4E] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [DK] Tormod's Crypt



And here's a list Jesse Hatfield had been playing with at The Lucky Frog;



// Lands
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [RAV] Island (1)
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [U] Tropical Island
4 [B] Volcanic Island
1 [IA] Forest (2)

// Creatures
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [JU] Fledgling Dragon

// Spells
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [R] Counterspell
4 [B] Lightning Bolt
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [OD] Predict
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [LRW] Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [PT] Pyroclasm
SB: 4 [EX] Price of Progress


And those are their somewhat recent lists...

edit2: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Events.aspx?x=mtgevent/worlds07/legacydecks

Strg+F for "John Sittner". I hope that singleton Wasteland is a typo, though.

[Omega]

The counterspells aren't a bad idea, especially since ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh usually go to late game. Hard counter are always welcome

Here is a list I have been using and had some success on the local tournaments. It is really different from what we are used to see:/

18 lands
2 island
1 forest
4 windswept heath
4 flooded strand
4 tropical island
3 tundra

draw 16
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
3 sensei's divining top
3 predict
2 mystical tutor

creature 10
4 tarmogoyf
4 nimble mongoose
2 mystic enforcer

counter 10
4 force of will
3 daze
3 counterbalance

removal 7
4 swords to plowshare
1 rushing river
1 krosan grip
1 armageddon

Biggest difference is the use of 2 mystical tutor, and a small toolboxx of 1 rushing 1 krosan grip and 1 ARMAGEDDON!

I know many say that the tutor are Card Disadvantage, but the ability to fetch one powerful card can help (geddon, grip, rushing river) and can change the game. A well timed geddon can end the game. However, it is almost always a dead card. But with the m tutor, we have like 3 copies in the MD. Same goes for Rushing river and Krosan grip. They can be dead cards, but when needed, you can fetch for them and change the game. (Rushing river is amazing at removing opponent's tarmogoyf.)
The synergy with CB is also amazing. (You can get 1cc 2cc 3cc and even 5cc)

The downside is that the m.tutor are card disadvantage. If you are on topdeck and draw one of them, you lose 1 turn to get what you need.

I personally like my list a lot and thought it would be agood idea to share it with others. I dont see a lot of writing in UGW thread.

Right now, i am looking to play more counter. I keep losing to control deck like ITF, landstill UW and UGBW. The singleton geddon helps, but im still missing something to fight them in the late game.
Fast combo have become a problem too.

Robert

[chokin]

The counterspells aren't a bad idea, especially since ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh usually go to late game. Hard counter are always welcome

Here is a list I have been using and had some success on the local tournaments. It is really different from what we are used to see:/

18 lands
2 island
1 forest
4 windswept heath
4 flooded strand
4 tropical island
3 tundra

draw 16
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
3 sensei's divining top
3 predict
2 mystical tutor

creature 10
4 tarmogoyf
4 nimble mongoose
2 mystic enforcer

counter 10
4 force of will
3 daze
3 counterbalance

removal 7
4 swords to plowshare
1 rushing river
1 krosan grip
1 armageddon

Biggest difference is the use of 2 mystical tutor, and a small toolboxx of 1 rushing 1 krosan grip and 1 ARMAGEDDON!

I know many say that the tutor are Card Disadvantage, but the ability to fetch one powerful card can help (geddon, grip, rushing river) and can change the game. A well timed geddon can end the game. However, it is almost always a dead card. But with the m tutor, we have like 3 copies in the MD. Same goes for Rushing river and Krosan grip. They can be dead cards, but when needed, you can fetch for them and change the game. (Rushing river is amazing at removing opponent's tarmogoyf.)
The synergy with CB is also amazing. (You can get 1cc 2cc 3cc and even 5cc)

The downside is that the m.tutor are card disadvantage. If you are on topdeck and draw one of them, you lose 1 turn to get what you need.

I personally like my list a lot and thought it would be agood idea to share it with others. I dont see a lot of writing in UGW thread.

Right now, i am looking to play more counter. I keep losing to control deck like ITF, landstill UW and UGBW. The singleton geddon helps, but im still missing something to fight them in the late game.
Fast combo have become a problem too.

Robert

Armageddon is really bad for you. If I remember correctly, old Thresh could afford to run it because Werebear helped you play it and pull ahead in mana after. Wasteland should suffice against Landstill and ITF.

Wipe Away would be better than River imo since it is uncounterable and it still gives you another shot to counter stuff. So throw Grip back in the SB.

Also, I'd suggest dropping Tutor for something else. You have plenty of cantripping power already (the standard 8 plus Predict plus the dig of Top). You could throw in another Daze and 2 Counterspell, which should help you fight off other problematic decks.

Basically, -Geddon, -Grip -Tutor, +Daze, +2 CS, +1 Wipe Away.

[frogboy]

Armageddon is really bad for you. If I remember correctly, old Thresh could afford to run it because Werebear helped you play it and pull ahead in mana after. Wasteland should suffice against Landstill and ITF.

If you resolve Armageddon with a creature in play against most control decks, you are an overwhelming favorite to win.

[Omega]

yes. Especially against Landstil for example. If i can just land a mongoose, its enough to win the game after Geddon. (Unless he draws land, ee, land again and boom. Or mishra and land). Sure i lose my lands, but against some deck, blowing everything can change the game.


Rushing river is more useful in my testing. The ability to return two permanents can greatly compensate the loss of split second from wipe away.

Robert

[Adan]

Biggest difference is the use of 2 mystical tutor, and a small toolboxx of 1 rushing 1 krosan grip and 1 ARMAGEDDON!

I don't like Tutors in general, but what is the advantage of Mystical Tutor over Enlightened Tutor when you can fetch like real removal (Oblivion Ring and Engineered Explosives) and also controlhosers like Counterbalance and Back to Basics?

DON'T SAY IT PITCHES INTO FORCE!

[undone]

If you resolve Armageddon with a creature in play against most control decks, you are an overwhelming favorite to win.

QFT

Geddon + either land goose or Geddon with a guy on board are nearly unloseable games.

Here is my current list which I have been loving.

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Goose
2 Mystic enforcer

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of will
4 Daze
4 Predict
4 Swords to plowshares

3 Counterblanace
3 Top

3 Oblivion ring

4 flooded strand
4 Windswept heath
2 Tundra
3 Tropical island
2 island
1 plains
1 forest

SB
4 Hydroblasts
2 Armageddon/jace berlin (which is better overall?)
3 Jotun grunt
3 Krosan grip
3 Open slots


I have been loving the Orings because in the mirror they rock as additional foils to goyf, and as a counter to counterbalance. They also are great in the white threshold mirror because they read "Deal with mystic enforcer" and as a 3 to put on top you get more countertop flexablity.

[Adan]

Geddon + either land goose or Geddon with a guy on board are nearly unloseable games.

You are completely ignoring the opponent's boardposition with that statement and that is why Armageddon became like out-dated some time ago.

The main reason why Gaddock Teeg took Armageddon's place in the sideboards is that a deck such as UWb Landstill has got tons of removal, making it impossible for you to reach the above mentioned state where Armageddon wins you the game.
I could also imagine that Armageddon backfires like hell when the Landstill player simply cycles a Decree for like 6-7 guys before Geddon resolves.
Then you succesfully hit yourself in the face.

But the point is that he doesn't even need Decree of Justice. He only needs removal. That's it. Even after a resolved Armageddon, Landstill can recover quite fast as they play more lands than Threshold (capt. obvious) and can still get rid of Nimble Mongoose by dropping Explosives or Swords.

I also don't like that Armageddon is very manaintensive.

P.S.: Jace Beleren is the worst planeswalker ever printed.

[undone]

You are completely ignoring the opponent's boardposition with that statement and that is why Armageddon became like out-dated some time ago.

The main reason why Gaddock Teeg took Armageddon's place in the sideboards is that a deck such as UWb Landstill has got tons of removal, making it impossible for you to reach the above mentioned state where Armageddon wins you the game.
I could also imagine that Armageddon backfires like hell when the Landstill player simply cycles a Decree for like 6-7 guys before Geddon resolves.
Then you succesfully hit yourself in the face.

But the point is that he doesn't even need Decree of Justice. He only needs removal. That's it. Even after a resolved Armageddon, Landstill can recover quite fast as they play more lands than Threshold (capt. obvious) and can still get rid of Nimble Mongoose by dropping Explosives or Swords.

I also don't like that Armageddon is very manaintensive.

P.S.: Jace Beleren is the worst planeswalker ever printed.

1) Geddon obviously doesnt just get played you back it up with like a force or counterblanace.

2) Jace > Teeg vs landstill. They have exactly 4 MD factories 2 MD decrees 3 MD EE 1 ED. At best to remove him. As opposed to swords wrath EE + guys.

3) You havent compaired the more important thing about geddon vs jace vs teeg, for instance 43 lands, random MUC and so on. The only matchup where Teeg> Geddon/jace is combo.

[Jaiminho]

2) Jace > Teeg vs landstill. They have exactly 4 MD factories 2 MD decrees 3 MD EE 1 ED. At best to remove him. As opposed to swords wrath EE + guys.

Teeg won't let either EE or Wrath be played in the first place. That's exactly why he's good -- he denies a fuckton of resources from the Landstill player. If you back Teeg up just as you would do with Geddon, by keeping Countertop active, Swords will never resolve and he's never going to die.

[Adan]

3) You havent compaired the more important thing about geddon vs jace vs teeg, for instance 43 lands, random MUC and so on. The only matchup where Teeg> Geddon/jace is combo.

Clemens and I are playing Back to basics which is clearly superior to Armageddon against 43Lands as they can easily recover from Geddon via Mox and Life. Back to Basics also shuts off Maze of Ith and everything contineously.

[Eldamion]

I think there are two ways to play this deck these days.
Till today, I played the controlish style of the deck with the enlightened tutor engine for b2b, 3 tops, 2 rings , 2 needles and 3 counterbalances.

You can find my list here: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=21858

After watching and searching for an update for my list, I was searching betwenn all the UGw thresh decks in the deckcheck.

What I found was really interessting for me.
There was a big tournament in Italy, which hat a winner UGw deck.

In my eyes this deck played another role as all the UGw before.
It had no Counterbalce and tops in it, so it finds more room for
more controlish creatures like trygon predators. And in my eyes, the Pradeatrs are the nuts. I had them alwys in my Side, and I often thought about it to but them into MAin.

Here is the list I am talking about: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=21966

I really like the fact, that there are more creatures in this list. What I am not sure about are the Spell Snare and the Stifles. I would prefer to have some hardcounters for the lategame, where our dazes are not good anymore and really sucks.

Maybe I will try an hybrid list in the BErlin Legacy tournament this weekend.
I will cut the CB and Tops down to 2 cpies each an only run 1 needle main and maybe cut the B2B. This will give me more room for 1-2 Predetors Maindeck an will see, Some more Hardcounters. Sometimes double U seems to be hard to get, for that I am thinkeing about Mana Leak. Some of the threads my opponent will play willremoved from the Predator.

Would be great to hear what you are thinking about the "new" list and my thoughts about it.

[Adan]

I think there are two ways to play this deck these days.
Till today, I played the controlish style of the deck with the enlightened tutor engine for b2b, 3 tops, 2 rings , 2 needles and 3 counterbalances.

You can find my list here: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=21858

After watching and searching for an update for my list, I was searching betwenn all the UGw thresh decks in the deckcheck.

What I found was really interessting for me.
There was a big tournament in Italy, which hat a winner UGw deck.

In my eyes this deck played another role as all the UGw before.
It had no Counterbalce and tops in it, so it finds more room for
more controlish creatures like trygon predators. And in my eyes, the Pradeatrs are the nuts. I had them alwys in my Side, and I often thought about it to but them into MAin.

Here is the list I am talking about: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=21966

I really like the fact, that there are more creatures in this list. What I am not sure about are the Spell Snare and the Stifles. I would prefer to have some hardcounters for the lategame, where our dazes are not good anymore and really sucks.

Maybe I will try an hybrid list in the BErlin Legacy tournament this weekend.
I will cut the CB and Tops down to 2 cpies each an only run 1 needle main and maybe cut the B2B. This will give me more room for 1-2 Predetors Maindeck an will see, Some more Hardcounters. Sometimes double U seems to be hard to get, for that I am thinkeing about Mana Leak. Some of the threads my opponent will play willremoved from the Predator.

Would be great to hear what you are thinking about the "new" list and my thoughts about it.

Ok, uhm, the list you were playing is actually Clemens' list with the 17th land and 3 Counterbalances and 2 Rings instead of 4 Counterbalances and 1 Ring.

Alexander Kimpel has also got infinite Top8s with the "white Moonthresh", the difference is that Clemens and I simply play a different manabase configuration and 1 Enlightened Tutor instead of the 2nd Back to Basics (because of versatility and stuff).

So, we have like...

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20038
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20125
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20277
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20440
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20442
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20924
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=21470
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=22011

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=21395
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=21997

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=21858
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=22065

12 records within the last 3 or 4 months vs. that strange list you are hyping.
Notice that there are a lot more Threshold decks with Counterbalance that I have not listed here.

That list you are advocating is obviously terrible as Counterbalance IS the reason for Thresholds success, so why should you cut down the win-conditions?
Additionally, it plays Stifle, but no Wastelands. That makes no sense as Stifle is a tempo-card, but the rest of the deck is neither designed nor suited for tempogaming.

Such a fluke is definitely not significant enough, though it made Top8 in a rather large tournament.

And in compairison to the Counterbalance builds above, it is not able to simply out-control the opponent with Counterbalance.

If you want to play a tempo-oriented Threshold, I'd advocate David Caplan's UGr Thresh.

[undone]

What good anti goyf sligh tech do we have aside from Counter top?

Is there anything better than BEB's?

Would a couple of jitti's + boarding in all your men be a good idea? (Boarding in grunts teegs and maby predators if you have them)

Is this matchup already favorable? If so why?

I also believe I Will be switching to the nonbasic inquisition as it seems like your right about BTB it just randomly wins games and doesnt hurt you almost at all.

Why are most lists even of the Nonbasic inquisition cutting predict it seems very strong and very good in the mirror as well as black matchups. The other big point about this is that it fills your yard for a deck playing alot of permenants.

[Adan]

What good anti goyf sligh tech do we have aside from Counter top?

Is there anything better than BEB's?

Would a couple of jitti's + boarding in all your men be a good idea? (Boarding in grunts teegs and maby predators if you have them)

Is this matchup already favorable? If so why?

It is already favorable because of Counterbalance and our fat guys, namely Nimble Mongoose and Tarmogoyf.

We don't need Jitte. It's a terrible card in Threshold. Should be obvious. BEBs are the best you can get, mainly because it's also a very versatile SB card, it also comes in against Burn, Aggroloam, Goblins, Dragonstompy and so on.

[Shugyosha]

It is already favorable because of Counterbalance and our fat guys, namely Nimble Mongoose and Tarmogoyf.


I tested it extensively lately and found it to be 45-50% for UGW pre-board. UGW wins were often really close. Postboard Blasts help but sadly can't handle the most powerful attackers (Nacatl/Goyf) or Choke.

Other than Hoofprints token or Enforcers (whatever is played) your own guys are not fat. Wild Nacatl is 3/3 long before your Nimble hits threshold and Goyf... he has it too and bolts. Lavamancer is an absolute pain in this matchup and has to be dealt with or you loose. Luckily there are many ways to deal with him.

[undone]

I have been trying to handle the matchup with grunts and BEBs they dont help enough it seems. I feel like this matchup is worse than we give it credit for.

[Ophidian]

I have been trying to handle the matchup with grunts and BEBs they dont help enough it seems. I feel like this matchup is worse than we give it credit for.

I would run a few Worship in the board.

They're obviously going to bring in Krosan Grip for Counterbalance, so let em waste their Grips on that, drop Worship with a Mongoose out and call it a day.

[slaiter]

My list:

//Lands
4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest
//18

//Creatures
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trygon Predator
//10

//Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Predict
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Snare
3 Counterballance
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Oblivion Ring
//32


//Side
3 Stifle
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Krosan Grip / Serenity
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Hydroblast

Trygon Predator or Mystic Enforcer?
Stifle MD or Side?
4-3 Daze?
Suggestions?

[Glorfindel]

I would run a few Worship in the board.

They're obviously going to bring in Krosan Grip for Counterbalance, so let em waste their Grips on that, drop Worship with a Mongoose out and call it a day.

Like Worship isn't Krosan Grippable ...

[Ophidian]

Like Worship isn't Krosan Grippable ...

Did you even read my post?


They WASTE their Grips on CB.


THEN you play Worship.

[Nihil Credo]

Did you even read my post?


They WASTE their Grips on CB.


THEN you play Worship.

Definitely not the best of strategies. Usually Sligh runs 3-4 Grips in the board; you have to bait with CounterTop, then drop a Mongoose, then drop a Worship. And after all of that, you have to win through their blockers before they draw a second Krosan Grip.

Cantrips do give you better draws, but they don't mean you will consistently get everything you want, especially when under pressure. It's better to find a trick that doesn't get hit by Krosan Grip (Kitchen Finks / Rhox War Monk / Ajani Goldmane / Pulse of the Fields / more than 4 Blasts / Heroes' fucking Reunion / etc.).

[Ophidian]

Definitely not the best of strategies. Usually Sligh runs 3-4 Grips in the board; you have to bait with CounterTop, then drop a Mongoose, then drop a Worship. And after all of that, you have to win through their blockers before they draw a second Krosan Grip.

Cantrips do give you better draws, but they don't mean you will consistently get everything you want, especially when under pressure. It's better to find a trick that doesn't get hit by Krosan Grip (Kitchen Finks / Rhox War Monk / Ajani Goldmane / Pulse of the Fields / more than 4 Blasts / Heroes' fucking Reunion / etc.).

Well...

They have a finite number of Grips. Let's say 3.
You have a finite number of targets, let's say 8. 3 CB, 3 Worship, 2 SDT.

In a war of attrition, I'd rather up the number of "must grips" because with your strategy, of finding things that cannot be Gripped means that they are waiting for you to play a CB, so they can specifically use the Grips that they boarded in on it.

[Nihil Credo]

Your life total is the problem, in two different ways.

First, you may not have the time to fight the war of attrition to begin with. If your first trump (whether CounterTop or Worship-Mongoose) gets Gripped, your life total is in no better shape than before, and you only have until it runs out to find a second combo.

Secondly, under Worship (unlike CoP, Warmth, Words of Worship, etc.) your life total is still going to go down to 1, which means that if they draw a Grip before you kill them you're very likely dead (you have to counter every burn spell of them without pitch-FoWs, and not even that if they just alpha strike or activate Ring/Lavamancer/Fanatic). Now, if you could kill them quickly that'd be great, but with Tarmogoyfs and Figures of Destiny (plus burn) sitting back on defence it's probably going to take an Enforcer to get out of the stall (assuming they can't resolve two burn spells at it).

[Ophidian]

Your life total is the problem, in two different ways.

First, you may not have the time to fight the war of attrition to begin with. If your first trump (whether CounterTop or Worship-Mongoose) gets Gripped, your life total is in no better shape than before, and you only have until it runs out to find a second combo.

Secondly, under Worship (unlike CoP, Warmth, Words of Worship, etc.) your life total is still going to go down to 1, which means that if they draw a Grip before you kill them you're very likely dead (you have to counter every burn spell of them without pitch-FoWs, and not even that if they just alpha strike or activate Ring/Lavamancer/Fanatic). Now, if you could kill them quickly that'd be great, but with Tarmogoyfs and Figures of Destiny (plus burn) sitting back on defence it's probably going to take an Enforcer to get out of the stall (assuming they can't resolve two burn spells at it).


Agreed.

However, if the game is over before you stabilize, you would probably lose anyways.



Worship was just a suggestion...

But I think it's better than COP or Warmth.. but definitely not Words of Worship ;)

[Citrus-God]

There's Chill... that's probably a better card than Worship. It serves the same purpose as Counterbalance, so it's just additional Counterbalances.

[Obfuscate Freely]

Well...

They have a finite number of Grips. Let's say 3.
You have a finite number of targets, let's say 8. 3 CB, 3 Worship, 2 SDT.

3 CB, 3 Worship, 2 SDT.

3 CB
If for some reason you do not have four Counterbalances in the maindeck, you should always, always, always board the fourth copy. It comes in against most of the relevant decks in the format.

Think about it this way. Why on earth would you look to boarding something as narrow as Worship before fitting in the fourth copy of Counterbalance? Worship isn't even better than Counterbalance against Goyf Sligh, while the latter is useful in a far greater number of matchups. It should be obvious which card is more deserving of the sideboard space.

[Ophidian]

If for some reason you do not have four Counterbalances in the maindeck, you should always, always, always board the fourth copy. It comes in against most of the relevant decks in the format.

Think about it this way. Why on earth would you look to boarding something as narrow as Worship before fitting in the fourth copy of Counterbalance? Worship isn't even better than Counterbalance against Goyf Sligh, while the latter is useful in a far greater number of matchups. It should be obvious which card is more deserving of the sideboard space.

FWIW,

I run 4 main in my personal build, but I was merely using 3 as an example to try and not make my argument seem too biased.

I also think 4 CB is pretty crucial, since it helps with dropping one turn 2, you can pitch extras to FOW, and Predicting excess copies away, esp to pump a Goyf is nuts.


RE: Chill, it seems like it would be better in Thrash where you're already focused on denying their mana/tempo. Granted, I probably play the deck a little cooler (more controlling) then most people. Which is probably why I'm a fan of Worship.

[Jaiminho]

RE: Chill, it seems like it would be better in Thrash where you're already focused on denying their mana/tempo. Granted, I probably play the deck a little cooler (more controlling) then most people. Which is probably why I'm a fan of Worship.

UGw Thresh is the most controlling version of Threshold. You should start the game as the control deck against almost everything. That granted, Worship still sucks, since it's too narrow, can't be protected against Grips and won't win you the game or anything close to that. Not losing doesn't mean the same as winning.

On a side note, 4 CB maindeck is like... mandatory. Unless your meta doesn't allow it.

[Jak]

So I have always proxied this deck up, played with it on MWS, and always loved playing it since it is really strong. However, I really haven't ever built it. Now, I really want to build it. UGW is obviously the colors I would like to play because it can be adapted to how I want to play, I dislike heavy tempo decks like UGR, and UGB feels really suicidal.

4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vedilion Clique
2 Mystic Enforcer

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Counterbalance
3 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Oblivion Ring

SB
3 Krosan Grip
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Hydroblast
3 Rhox War Monk
3 Back to Basics

I really haven't played with Thresh in a while but got the urge to try and build it and put together a list. Problem, I am 3 cards over. With Thresh, I have always tried to make it have a stronger late game so I really like playing with Counterspells. The problem with this now is recently I have a fondness with Clique because it acts as a different form of disruption while being a 3/1 flying powerhouse. I don't understand why more people aren't playing this. So I need to cut three cards, but I should really test it out.

SB is pretty basic except for Rhox War Monk. I have a hard on for this card and I think it is awesome against red decks since decks like Goyf Sligh will usually take out Balance with Grips. Rhox is an unboltable, life gaining, beast. So any thoughts on the list?

[Ciberon]

You have three options. Cut down creatures. Cut down counterspells. Cut down the Sensei + Counterballance.

[Jak]

Yeah, I really need to test before I make any calls. As I said, I haven't played with it in a while and I haven't played with Clique enough.

[Citrus-God]

Yeah, I really need to test before I make any calls. As I said, I haven't played with it in a while and I haven't played with Clique enough.

Clique is basically a counterspell by extension. So cut your Mystic Enforcers; Cliques evade already. You should also cut down on your Counterspells because Cliques serve the same purpose. I'd cut the Enforcers and Counterspells for Predicts actually, because if I'm not running Thoughtseize; I wanna be running a good card advantage spell. Predicts are amazing until you can find Counterbalance, which is good; you have more than just Counterbalance to just produce card advantage.

-2 Mystic Enforcer
-3 Counterspell

+4 Predict
+1 Oblivion Ring

[Ophidian]

UGw Thresh is the most controlling version of Threshold. You should start the game as the control deck against almost everything. That granted, Worship still sucks, since it's too narrow, can't be protected against Grips and won't win you the game or anything close to that. Not losing doesn't mean the same as winning.

On a side note, 4 CB maindeck is like... mandatory. Unless your meta doesn't allow it.

So what would you suggest as a sideboard option? Honestly, I don't care.. I crush that matchup.. but someone was having trouble with it, so I at least gave them a suggestion. Although I find it painfully ironic that the same argument that you use against Worship can also be used against Counterbalance. (Yes I know CB is a better card-- duh, just sayin)

As far as 4 CB being "like... mandatory" I agree, but if you look at the first page of Deckcheck, maybe only 4-5 UGW Thresh decklists run all 4 main. 1 or 2 had the 4th in the board and a couple weren't running CounterTop at all.

Regardless, an overwhelming number had 3 main, granted it seems like most were region-specific (the same people T8'ing their same events)

[Jaiminho]

So what would you suggest as a sideboard option? Honestly, I don't care.. I crush that matchup.. but someone was having trouble with it, so I at least gave them a suggestion. Although I find it painfully ironic that the same argument that you use against Worship can also be used against Counterbalance. (Yes I know CB is a better card-- duh, just sayin)

BEBs should be enough. You'll be able to spare STPs for life gaining when necessary after drawing more removal in the form of blasts.

Now back onto the subject of CB vs Worship. When you have the latter, you can't afford to let your life go down to 1, or you will be dead as soon as the opponent draws a Krosan Grip. This makes it a completely useless card. With CB, it's completely different. Aside from the huge card advantage it's able to provide, it helps maintain your life total in a safe level and also make their board devoid of creatures. This last part does help you win the game.



As far as 4 CB being "like... mandatory" I agree, but if you look at the first page of Deckcheck, maybe only 4-5 UGW Thresh decklists run all 4 main. 1 or 2 had the 4th in the board and a couple weren't running CounterTop at all.

Regardless, an overwhelming number had 3 main, granted it seems like most were region-specific (the same people T8'ing their same events)

I used to run 3 since forever. Only recently I sneaked the 4th in and oh holy mama wasn't it awsome? If your meta is composed of enough F/S Stompy or Stax or other high curve stuff like that to justify not using 4, then simply don't. In any other case, I believe 4 is the best number ever. The decks running 0 are played in a totally different way, so that's a whole other subject.

[Ophidian]

BEBs should be enough. You'll be able to spare STPs for life gaining when necessary after drawing more removal in the form of blasts.

Now back onto the subject of CB vs Worship. When you have the latter, you can't afford to let your life go down to 1, or you will be dead as soon as the opponent draws a Krosan Grip. This makes it a completely useless card. With CB, it's completely different. Aside from the huge card advantage it's able to provide, it helps maintain your life total in a safe level and also make their board devoid of creatures. This last part does help you win the game.




I used to run 3 since forever. Only recently I sneaked the 4th in and oh holy mama wasn't it awsome? If your meta is composed of enough F/S Stompy or Stax or other high curve stuff like that to justify not using 4, then simply don't. In any other case, I believe 4 is the best number ever. The decks running 0 are played in a totally different way, so that's a whole other subject.

Point of clarification before I go back to trolling (because it's not worth listening to platitudes and hyperbole)

I'm not saying take out Counterbalance, I'm saying that there may be some merit to running CB with Worship.

CB provides huge card advantage? Really.. I had no idea
Maintains your life level? Surely you jest!
Keeps their board devoid of creatures? Someone tell Mike Flores to watch his back because someone is obviously hacking into his computer and stealing all of his technology.



Just because I don't post on this board regularly does not mean that I am ignorant to the most basic principles of a tier 1 Legacy deck. I was merely trying to offer a suggestion to someone, I didn't ask for Magic 101.


*back to trolling

[rockout]

Play nice :cry:

That said. Worship seems good against burn because how do they deal with a mongoose? However, as Jak said a few posts up, Rhox War Monk is a house in the life gain department. I'd run Rhox over Worship anyway. It's offense instead of playing annoying defense in worship that gets gripped 9 times out of 10. If for nothing else, it deserves testing with Clique to up the 3 cmc spells for CB.

[mackaber]

I haven't tested clique in Grow but I've been running it between main and SB of my MUC dec and it's been great there. And I'm pretty sure it would be even better in grow, preferably in versions sans counterbalance. It's definetly better than enforcer who's been quite a crutch too me recently since the MU where he's at his absolute best (Team America) if you could cast him you've prolly won anyways. Also how come nobody's playing with Pithing Needle (save for the germans). Relic is gonna pop up in more and more decs and needle is really good against them.

[Adan]

So what would you suggest as a sideboard option? Honestly, I don't care.. I crush that matchup.. but someone was having trouble with it, so I at least gave them a suggestion. Although I find it painfully ironic that the same argument that you use against Worship can also be used against Counterbalance. (Yes I know CB is a better card-- duh, just sayin)

Yes, Counterbalance is the better card, it wins you the matchup and is overall the main reason why Threshold is successful and one of the best decks of the format.
Worship does like nothing against any deck in the age of Krosan Grip.

Other decks can handle Worship as well or alternatively Nimble Mongoose (Burning Wish, Chalice, Engineered Explosives come to mind).


As far as 4 CB being "like... mandatory" I agree, but if you look at the first page of Deckcheck, maybe only 4-5 UGW Thresh decklists run all 4 main. 1 or 2 had the 4th in the board and a couple weren't running CounterTop at all.

"Maybe only 4-5"...

Well...

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=22065
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=22011
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=21997
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=21470
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=21395
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20924
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20909
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20510
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20442
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20440
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20277
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20125
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20038
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=18785
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=16310

And the list is going on. You will also be able to find a record of mine from out December Hassloch toruney which I 4-1-1'd with Clemens' build as soon as Clemens/Der_imaginäre_Freund has managed to structure the feature matches and type down the Top8 lists.


Regardless, an overwhelming number had 3 main, granted it seems like most were region-specific (the same people T8'ing their same events)

Even though the last record of mine only contains 3 Balances main and 1 in the SB, the most plausible explanation for this is: people are stupid.
Counterbalance wins games (capt. obv.) and thus it should be played as a 4of-autoinclude.

In the past I also refused to play 4 because out meta was also not appropriate for that (a lot of Stax, Dragonstompy, Ichorid), but the gain you have against the rest of the format is vital.

[rsaunder]

I'm starting to agree that the 1-of enforcer seems a tad bit like a crutch, but I've drawn him sometimes where he just outright wins games and breaks ground battles wide open before my opponent could draw removal. In the landstill matchup, he's an absolute beast both pre-playing (counterbalance countering WOG/humility is nice, but has only happened for me twice in a huge number of games) and after you force him through.

Has anyone actually tested clique?

[Jak]

Yeah, I've played with it a few times on MWS. It's been countered twice, but when it resolved, I grabbed a decree and was able to beat in. It being 3cc was also nice to actually be able to hit 3s more often with balance. Still need more testing.

[Jaiminho]

It seems to me like it could be a powerful weapon against more controllish decks, but a dead weight against faster or more aggressive ones, mostly because of the threat density those decks pack and that a 3/1 will be no threat by itself.

[Obfuscate Freely]

It's definetly better than enforcer who's been quite a crutch too me recently
I'm starting to agree that the 1-of enforcer seems a tad bit like a crutch
Can you guys please explain to me your use of the word "crutch?" I'm not sure what you mean by it.

Mackaber, you mention Team America, and you characterize Enforcer as win-more in that matchup, but I disagree with that. After all, Tombstalker can still beat your skull in regardless of how many lands you have in play.

Enforcer is an extremely efficient and powerful threat, albeit one that sits atop Threshold's mana curve. Despite the relatively high casting cost, the card has won me a lot of games that I would not have won otherwise, and so I want to continue playing it. Where am I going wrong?

[quicksilver]

The only reasonable interpretation to me of using a magic card as a crutch would be to use the card to win matches that you were going to lose but should have won if you played properly. Thus once you know how to play properly you can win without it and it is overkill.

So in their situtation I am guessing that their skill has increased to where they can win certain matchups that he is good in without him and thus think it should be cut for a card to improve other matches.

[Citrus-God]

The only reasonable interpretation to me of using a magic card as a crutch would be to use the card to win matches that you were going to lose but should have won if you played properly. Thus once you know how to play properly you can win without it and it is overkill.

Like Meddling Mage in Thresh against Solidarity from way back when.

[rsaunder]

The only reasonable interpretation to me of using a magic card as a crutch would be to use the card to win matches that you were going to lose but should have won if you played properly. Thus once you know how to play properly you can win without it and it is overkill.
Very well put.

I haven't had all that much trouble with TA yet, especially circumstances justifying Enforcer's inclusion. More often than not I shuffle him away after a top or brainstorm because I don't have the land to cast him. From what I can tell thus far (20 or so matches) that matchup revolves around counterbalance almost exclusively. Resolve one and you pretty much win, unless he can drop 2 or 3 tombstalkers in short order. It should also be noted that I have yet to lose after resolving an enforcer.

I don't know if I'm ready to advocate cutting enforcer for something else yet, but against TA he's damn hard to cast and against almost any other deck he seems like overkill.

EDIT: I'd like to hear what some of the guys from Germany think on the topic. I've pretty much settled on Clemens list with the 17th land; it's so tight and well put together, there must be a reason enforcer's worthy of the MB slot that I just haven't been able to see for myself.

[Obfuscate Freely]

The only reasonable interpretation to me of using a magic card as a crutch would be to use the card to win matches that you were going to lose but should have won if you played properly. Thus once you know how to play properly you can win without it and it is overkill.

So in their situtation I am guessing that their skill has increased to where they can win certain matchups that he is good in without him and thus think it should be cut for a card to improve other matches.
This only makes sense if you replace the idea of "the ability to win a match" with a more complex understanding of "the probability of winning a match," weighed against the increases and decreases in the probabilities of winning other matches that come along with the card choice you're analyzing.

Of course you can win against Survival (just as an example) without Enforcer. And your chance of doing so obviously improves with your playskill and knowledge of the matchup. However, Enforcer remains a very useful card to have in that matchup, and having them in your deck will likely always increase the probability of you winning beyond what it would be if you cut the Enforcers for something that is worse against Survival.

The shorthand method of evaluating a card's value against an expected field of opponents is to estimate the card's value in individual matchups, and then try to roughly factor in the importance (relevence) of those matchups. Whenever I do this, I invariably come to the conclusion that Enforcer is worth running. Do others not?

[nitewolf9]

Whenever I do this, I invariably come to the conclusion that Enforcer is worth running. Do others not?

I know this: I've lost because of mystic enforcer alone more than any other card in threshold, including counterbalance. I do tend to play black-based decks, but with all the other aggro control decks in the format he seems like a pretty huge threat that just happens to be easier to cast when your opponent has an active counterbalance/top.

[rsaunder]

The shorthand method of evaluating a card's value against an expected field of opponents is to estimate the card's value in individual matchups, and then try to roughly factor in the importance (relevence) of those matchups. Whenever I do this, I invariably come to the conclusion that Enforcer is worth running. Do others not?

But the question then becomes: Is he worth running over something else (clique etc.)? I think that's what warrants time and testing.

[Blitzbold]

I am really tempted to try Clique as a 2-of in the Maindeck. However, this is no reason for me not to include at least 1 Mystic Enforcer as he is really nuts.

[mackaber]

I have kind of an ambivalent relationship to Enforcer. I used to play 3 when others were playing 1 or 2 and it kicked ass in those days with deadguy a metagame factor and Werebear in the maindec. But those days are invariably gone and in my last testing installment with treshhold which included roughly a hundred matches on MWs I cast it once, obv it won the game from there but the fact that the rest of the time it hangs around in my hand has to be shuffled away or similar shenanigans makes me think it could have been something more usefull.
Actually I did like the post about the increasing playskill. It's true to some extent that with increasing mastery of the dec you need enforcer less. But my main motivation for no longer wanting to play him has 2 reasons: he's not blue, he costs 4 mana. After having played Vendillion Clique a lot and being really impressed with it I sort of figuered it would serve the dec better than the clunky enforcer. I might be wrong on this as might be my evaluation of the card vs. TA. While resolved he's GG, resolving him will likely entail TA's primary gameplan has failed which leads me to the conclusion that he will often be a win more card and will never ever help you out of the tightspots where your at only 1 land (Granted Clique prolly isn't great here either).

Another reason is the increasing importance of Relic of Progenitus. Let me tell you it's here for real and it's a huge pain in the ass and a good reason to try and rely less on our yard.

[Mister Agent]

Vendilion Clique actually has been testing quite solid for me. I actually run a pair along with a singleton mystic enforcer in the main. Clique has been complimenting the entire deck since it creates virtual card advantage and by doing so you can protect counterbalance and also your threats too.

[Jaiminho]

I might be wrong on this as might be my evaluation of the card vs. TA. While resolved he's GG, resolving him will likely entail TA's primary gameplan has failed which leads me to the conclusion that he will often be a win more card and will never ever help you out of the tightspots where your at only 1 land (Granted Clique prolly isn't great here either).

TA's initial gameplan is to attack your mana base and then beat with unanswered threats. Still, if you are able to survive long enough and stay in the game to play your own, TA can still play Tombstalker and simply win from there. Getting to the mid-late game does not equal victory.

[Adan]

http://www.deckcheck.net/event.php?event=Legacy+Hassloch+Dezember+2008

Me, taking 4th place with Clemens' build.

This time I didn't face Aggroloam at all, they were somehow ALL lurking around at the lower tables.
But, not facing Aggroloam means that I had to play against random decks.

I won against SuiB, ElfSurvival (the one on Place 6), Imperial Painter and UGr Dra-GRO-Nauts.

I IDed with Fabian (Place 5, Team America) because we both somehow became good buddies over the many tournaments this year where we met each other. I know that Team America is a very very uncomfortable matchup, but I still know how to play optimal against Team America: Circumvent the manadenial as good as you can and resolve either Nimble Mongeese and/or Counterbalance(-Engine) and you are quite safe.

And well, that how it went, Game 1 I played multiple Mongeese and he had a inconsistent draw, drawing a shitload of lands and me beating him with double-Mongoose until he gave up and threw his 3 Snuff Outs in his hand through the room.

Game 2 he annihilated me in a ideal manner: straight-foward Manadenial and 4 obesities through cardquality.

We both decided not to play Game 3 and drawed as both games were somehow decided by "luck" and we didn't want to kick each other out only because one of us has got a inconsistent draw.

So I worked myself up to the 4-0-1 and got paired against Teammate Stefan "spiritofthewretch" Czolk.

After I saw that I'd land on Place 4 in any case, whether I ID or lose, I decided to play. I also have to admit that I underestimated him once more. Our Team SPOD internally agrees that Clemens and I are the most skilled Threshold players of Team SPOD, but I neglected that even the biggest scrub on earth can knock you out if he can successfully assemble Counter-Top.

Another reason why I underestimated him was that he had still like 1,5 per mille of alcohol running through his veins. He also fell asleep between round 2 and 3 because he was tired/exhausted/fucked up.

So, Game 1 I had a good hand, but he assembles Counter-Top withing the first 3 turns with double Backup (Daze+Force). Well, fuck. Well, since i started with SDT Turn 1, I thought I might try to assemble my own Counterbalance. He tops, mumbles, fetches, tops and mumbles again. Resolved. YAY! Countertop vs. Countertop, no one of us having a threat. Stupid.

And he rips Trygon Predator from the top. OMGWTF. Well, after he dismantled my Counter-Top, I scooped.

Game 2 he forces through his Counter-Top engine again with backup and a Red Blast for my own Counterbalance.
I tried to resolve some creatures, though he had Counterbalance. Well, they resolved, but they were 2 Jotun Grunts which were dying eventually. And he simply had 2 Goyf and barbecued me with double-Bolt in the end.

Blah.

Well, 4-1-1, 4th Place, Fabian and I both picked a Force of Will and Stefan got the FBB Dual.

[Jaiminho]

In that list, what would you remove to fit a single EE maindeck?

[Adan]

In that list, what would you remove to fit a single EE maindeck?

Errr, the Ring? I dunno, I don't really like EE as I always have the feeling that it will hurt myself more than the opponent.

But if you would like to play it, Oblivion Ring could be the card to cut. But I really like Oblivion Ring as it is now even a tutorable Vindicate-substitute, thus extremely versatile and it allows you to play a kind of tempo-game against decks which only have a few creatures themselves (which is vital against Aggroloam).

Another possibility could be to cut Back to Basics, but I somehow began to like that card like... a lot. It was a very strong rogue tech against all kinf of decks like ITF, Lands.dec, AggroLoam and the mirrormatch. This rogue effect might vanish with the rising success of the "white MoonThresh", but it can still steal a lot of matchwins if you play it well-timed. It also wins against 43Lands by itself, especially when mixed together with Needles and Counterbalance, you can nearly hardlock him.

I still hope Aggroloam's high times are over now that all those Aggroloam-players have been suppressed to the lower tables.

[rsaunder]

I'm officially fed up with enforcer. He's just too hard to cast, no matter how swingy he may be. I haven't been able to cast him the last 11 times I've seen him against TA, and I lost a couple of games against goblins that I would have won had he been clique (one where I would have removed a ringleader, another where I would have counterbalanced a matron.) Yes yes, I know these are isolated circumstances, but I think 2x clique, other than its UU mana cost is less clunky and just more useful right now.

Enforcer gets the axe, and perhaps obilvion ring gets bumped to SB? I don't know about that one though, mystical tutor=>ring is a really useful play.

[Whit3 Ghost]

I'm officially fed up with enforcer. He's just too hard to cast, no matter how swingy he may be. I haven't been able to cast him the last 11 times I've seen him against TA, and I lost a couple of games against goblins that I would have won had he been clique (one where I would have removed a ringleader, another where I would have counterbalanced a matron.) Yes yes, I know these are isolated circumstances, but I think 2x clique, other than its UU mana cost is less clunky and just more useful right now.

Enforcer gets the axe, and perhaps obilvion ring gets bumped to SB? I don't know about that one though, mystical tutor=>ring is a really useful play.
I thought you ran 2x Enforcer?

I really don't think that I'd remove Ring, the almost-Vindicate is too good to pass up.

But yeah, Enforcer is really only good in the Mirror and by Mirror I mean they need to be playing Counterbalance and not have any way to either disrupt your hand or manabase. Clique just seems better, plus, the pseudo-thoughtseize and random fogging/chumping seems good.

[rsaunder]

Nah, just one. He shows up a lot though, doesn't he? I pretty much play the standard German Thresh list with land#17 instead of portent.

I think one clique is going in as a direct replacement for the time being, and if he works well I'l see if I want a second.

[Adan]

Well, Mystic Enforcer is there to win games at random.

I also don't think 2 Enforcers are too much, but we don't play him as there's too few space for a 2nd. Additionally, Clemens finds him clunky. I don't, but whatever, the deck is fine just as it is at the moment.

Vendilion Cliques sound interesting, though. They are like Thoughtseize and Lightning Bolt combined and they are CC3 which rocks to reveal with Counterbalance.

The only problem I could see so far is that it is - in compairison to Enforcer - a rather whimsy creature (ok, it's meant to be a utility creature, meh) and it's legendary which means they suck in multiples.

[mackaber]

it's legendary which means they suck in multiples.

That's why you can always target yourself with it.

[Mister Agent]

Mystic Enforcer isn't really that bad. I think he is at his best when he's paired with cards like thoughtseize and predict. Those two cards alone actually make enforcer considerably easier to cast in my opinion. That is why I like 5c threshold because it has a transformational sideboard and has the best aspects from previous builds.

[Adan]

Mystic Enforcer isn't really that bad. I think he is at his best when he's paired with cards like thoughtseize and predict. Those two cards alone actually make enforcer considerably easier to cast in my opinion. That is why I like 5c threshold because it has a transformational sideboard and has the best aspects from previous builds.

...and the most fragile manabase of all.

[Citrus-God]

...and the most fragile manabase of all.

Not really. It has the most suicidal mana base in terms of life management, but the mana base is quite stable. If you think 4 City of Brass makes the mana base unstable, that's just blatantly false. I've recalled mulling hands in 4c Thresh because I fanned open a hand of 2 Tundra, 2 Thoughtseize, 1 Swords, a Goose, and a Goyf. Had one of those Tundras been a City of Brass, I would have kept that hand (the deck I tested ran 3 Tundras).

[Mister Agent]

I am going to have to agree with Citrus on this one. City of brass is actually amazing against the likes of Team America and then you add cantrips in there to further stabalize your manabase against land hate.

Also with an quintuplet colored manabase enables you to have access to a diverse set of cards. Having another set of cards provides you with the opportunity to outplay your opponents on a general and relevant scale.

[Adan]

Not really. It has the most suicidal mana base in terms of life management, but the mana base is quite stable. If you think 4 City of Brass makes the mana base unstable, that's just blatantly false. I've recalled mulling hands in 4c Thresh because I fanned open a hand of 2 Tundra, 2 Thoughtseize, 1 Swords, a Goose, and a Goyf. Had one of those Tundras been a City of Brass, I would have kept that hand (the deck I tested ran 3 Tundras).

My point was that 5color Threshold scoops to Wasteland-Lock, Dust Bowl, Back to Basics, Maguc of the Moon, Blood Moon...

Without Basic Lands I would have lost against Imperial Painter for like 100%.

[aTn]

Adan, did you test your list against Dreadstill ? In general, does Wasteland-Stifle prove to be a problem or is it ok considering the amount of cantrips and basics you run (EDIT: Oh... and Needle) ? I'd be tempted to go -1 Portent, +1 land, what's your take on that ?

P.S.: I really like the list. I think I'll try to customize it to my meta (i.e. maybe taking out the Needles) and see how it goes...

[Xeen]

[...]
Even with 16 lands you still get flooded very regularly in the matchups where your manabase isn't attacked, so that depending on your metagame, 16 is more than enough.
Also, you have to keep in mind that a 16 land, 3+ Basics manabase is way more resilient to land destruction than a 17+ land base with only ~1 Basic, making the choice even more understandable... overall, I'm extremely satisfied with my current configuration of 8 Fetchlands, 4 Duals and 4 Basics: I just can't recall the last game I had some serious trouble with the manabase, it lets you ignore loads of hate that's thrown at you and allows for Back to Basics shenanigans.


[...]

I think this pretty much answers your question, aTn.

This discussion is at pages ~78-79. I´ve been playing around with the manabase a bit last couple of weeks and found myself to love DERs and Adans manabase as ist is very stable in the eye of Bloodmoon and the likes, you always got enough land, as 2 - 3 is fully sufficient, except for TAs goddraw, when you´d merely like to have 1-2 additional "real" lands.
Same of course applies for UGr tempo Threshold.

Michael

[aTn]

Thanks Xeen, the quote answers most of my concerns.

I'm still a bit scared of the fact that 50% of the lands are fetchlands; Stifle might have good chances of screwing you (e.g. when playing vs Dreadstill).

I'll do some testing with Der's list and see where it goes.

[Omega]

I think, being old school, I would never play below 17 lands and 4 basics :
2 island, 1 forest, 1 plain. Mana denial is too intense

[Omega]

finished top2 split today.

AFter reading the forums this morning, just before the tournament, I gave another chance to the pithing needle (they were removed from the MD for some reasons). I really think they fit in my metagame. Against ITF, being able to shut down their pernicious deed is huge. Against landstill, no need to say that needle can shut down some of their removal or lands.

The single Mystic Enforcer was of no use today. I think he costs too much to be played. Especially for a 17lands decks when facing mana denial


I tested also a single Trinket MAge. The mage was surprisingly good (i have a toolbox of 1 ee, 2 needle and 3 sensei). It can dodge CB and get the perfect cb destroyer : EE! Plus, you have 1 creature on the table.


I had a lot of problem against elf survival. Any strategy against this deck? I felt that a lot of cards of his deck were bomb. First, do you counter the elf ringleader (reveal top 4 cards of library, put all elves into hand)? How about the death touch elves that destroy tarmogoyfs? Are pithing needle useful in this match (imperous perfect?, survival?) Are EE too slow?



Robert

[Elf_Ascetic]

Ok, give me some thoughts about Path to Exile.

CC: W
Instant Conflux Uncommon
Remove target creature from the game. Its controller may search his or her library for a basic land card, put it into play tapped, then shuffle his or her library.

[Jaiminho]

Ok, give me some thoughts about Path to Exile.

CC: W
Instant Conflux Uncommon
Remove target creature from the game. Its controller may search his or her library for a basic land card, put it into play tapped, then shuffle his or her library.

There's 3 pages worth of thoughts here. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12341)

[Omega]

but to sum up : it will probably be crap in legacy. Some people are talking about dedicated control deck... Landstill runs 4 STP, 4+ Deed/EE/wrath/Humility ; it doesn't need 4 more bad STP that has a huge drawback of giving an opponent a land... The only time where STE can be better than STP is in the late game, where lands don't matter anymore.
Perhaps a split 4STP 2STE would be viable, but i dont see STE as a 4of in any deck. Drawback, i will repeat, is just too huge in the early game.

Of course, actual testing will determine the viability of this card..

Robert

oh. I first said STE will rock T2 and Extended. I am not too sure now. The land can give some deck quite a boost.

[mackaber]

I had a lot of problem against elf survival. Any strategy against this deck? I felt that a lot of cards of his deck were bomb. First, do you counter the elf ringleader (reveal top 4 cards of library, put all elves into hand)? How about the death touch elves that destroy tarmogoyfs? Are pithing needle useful in this match (imperous perfect?, survival?) Are EE too slow?


Dunno. Needle always seemed really good against survival decs. Once you have that handled try getting CB down and counter/remove the card advantage spells/dudes. Alternatively get an early goyf apply pressure and counter his key spells. I haven't played this MU too often but me thinks it's sort of like Goblins. If he get's his engine going you lose, otherwise you should be fine. When trying to determine which creatures to kill with your removal you have to ask yourself the age old question: Who's the beatdown!

[Bongo]

General question: What are your boarding plans against the mirror and other blue-based decks?

I'm especially interested in the cards you take OUT.

[OneBigSquirrelGod]

General question: What are your boarding plans against the mirror and other blue-based decks?

I'm especially interested in the cards you take OUT.

It really depends what the other deck is.

Landstill is just a tough Matchup for Threshold, but I would reccommend Tormad's Crypts and Back to Basic.

If it's Team America, Definately Back to Basics and Submerge (I have Suberge in my sideboard. I think it is an amazing card in my meta).

UGR Thresh, I would throw in Crypts and Explosives, and keep as many creatures as possible.

UGB Thresh I would probably go th same route as against red. They get confidant, which you need to stop. asap.

What to take out depends on what you're running. I seem to side out 3 Counterspells a lot, and some other random's.

[Brushwagg]

General question: What are your boarding plans against the mirror and other blue-based decks?

I'm especially interested in the cards you take OUT.

I'm looking forward to Path to Exile. Not really for the Mirror, that comes down to Counterbalance wars. This card should give us a good bump in the aggro match where white lacks big time. Up to eight STPs and E.E. should be good.

As far as the cards you take out, that depends on the MD. Like I play Krsan Grip main, because of my meta, so if I come up aganist a deck where it would become useful I would bring them for the Grips (ie weakest card in a given match).

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I am possibly going to the big Legacy event in Chicago and i was thinking about running this deck. I used to run it like a year ago religiously, but i kinda haven't since then.

What do you think a good list incorporating Countertop would be for this event of just tier one decks?

Thanks.

[Omega]

Me and aTn took 1st and second place at last local tournament with a list close to the one used by Adan

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=22376

For me, i played 17 lands instead of 16.
-1 portent
-1 back to basic
+1 tropical island
+1 oblivion ring

The list is solid, although the single Mystic enforcer is questionable sometime.
I also played 61 cards. The 61 was an Engineered explosives.

Robert

[b4r0n]

General question: What are your boarding plans against the mirror and other blue-based decks?

I'm especially interested in the cards you take OUT.

It really depends on your list and their list. Generally speaking though, you want bring in Grips for enemy Counterbalances (dur). Besides that, additional hate is up to you. I run Trygon Predators (for the mirror and Dreadstill) and Back to Basics (for Landstill), so those come in. Dazes tend to be the first cards I board out for those matchups.

So:

Mirror: -2 Daze (4 total), -1 Ponder, -2 Pithing Needle, +3 Krosan Grip, +2 Trygon Predator
Dreadstill: -2 Daze, -1 Ponder, -2 Mystic Enforcer, +3 Krosan Grip, +2 Trygon Predator
Landstill: -4 Daze, -2 Swords to Plowshares, +3 Krosan Grip, +3 Back to Basics (number of Grips/Swords can fluctuate depending on whether they run Humilities versus Goyfs, etc.)

I haven't played enough Thresh versus Team America to know how best to sideboard. Back to Basics seems like it'd be pretty good, so maybe those would come in over Predicts.

[Omega]

Against TA, i dont really SB anything... your MD is already designed against him. Back to basic can be useful, but usually, hitting 3 mana is extremely hard

The only possibly dead cards are Oblivion ring and EE from the MD. Mystic can be intense to play too, but I think that its ability to end the game (and being immune to all of TA threat) is worth the risk of running a dead card

Robert

[Adan]

Against TA, i dont really SB anything... your MD is already designed against him. Back to basic can be useful, but usually, hitting 3 mana is extremely hard

Jotun Grunt is HUGE against TA. Just by the way. With Jotun Grunt, you can re-fetch destroyed Basiclands for example, keep their Goyfs low and he also makes it hard to cast Tombstalker. But protect him from Snuff Outs!

[_erbs_]

Hello all...
This is my first attempt in running a semi-threshold deck, i want to hear out your comments and suggestions on the build im planning.

Thanks in advance.

LANDS
3 tropical island
3 tundra
3 savannah
3 windswept heath
3 flooded strand
1 forest
1 island
1 plains
1 accademy ruins
19

CREATURES
4 tarmogyf
1 phyrexian dreadnought
2 trinket mage
4 nimble mongoose
11

SPELLS
4 force of will
3 daze
2 spell snare
4 swords to plowshares
3 brainstorm
3 ponder
19

UTILITIES
1 pithing needle
1 engineered explosives
3 counterbalance
2 sensei's divinning top
4 stifle
11

[Eldamion]

@Adan:

Here in Berlin we have a different metagame then you in western germany.
What would you change when a meta have more blue fish/fairie decks and landstill instead of Loam.

Is UGr better in that kind meta as Ugw, if so, with or without swans und cb?

I tested Venilion Clique a lot in the last time, and I think it is amazing, specilly when you run counterbalance and be short on 3cc. 3/1 flash flying in blue can't be bad.

[Maveric78f]

Hi all,

First, I want to precise that my text is not referring to erbs's list which is more than strange.

I've never played extensively threshold decks, but as every legacy player, I've played a lot (and won a lot) against. Actually, I always had some difficulties to understand the use of some cards, and when I wanted to build U based fish, I've always come to some equivalent, that won the threshold MU. As I don't pretend to invent a better deck than threshold, I'd like to understand the use of some cards.

1/ 8+ cantrips (usually something like 4 BS, 4 ponder and 3 tops). Aren't you tired at some point to need to spend U at each turn to find a business card ? I mean that you probably make card quality, but you lose a lot on tempo, and as aggro-control is a tempo deck, I'm really not fond of it. Personnally, I play 4 BS, because this card is sometimes equivalent to a draw3. When I play countertop, I also play 3 tops. When I play an aggro-control deck with no graveyard requirement (in merfolk for instance), I play 3/4*relic, which can be viewed as a cantrip with no library manipulation. But I never exceed the count of 8.
2/ Counterbalance + spellsnare : isn't it redundant ? Divert/disrupt/annul/counterspell or whatever depending on your metagame, but once counterbalance is in play, spellsnare is almost a deadcard.
3/ Daze : it depends on the threshold variant, but often threshold does not play any mana denial (no stifle, no wasteland), and in this case it is far too easy to play around daze. At best, you should take advantage of the fact that everybody will think that you are playing daze and will always keep 1 mana open, but not play daze.
4/ Mongoose : don't you feel that this card is awful now ? It's smaller than any other creature and gets wrecked by too many things (chalice/counterbalance/EE/jotun/relic/...).
5/ Removals : the burn spells of Ugr, Stp in Ugw, smother in Ubg. Aren't you supposed to play the biggest creature ever printed, in the name of tarmogoyf ? Aren't there better answer answer to a creature than 1for1 ?

Reducing the cantrips count frees 4 slots, reducing the counterspell part frees 4/6 slots, removing the mongeese frees 4 slots and removing the removals frees 4 slots at least once more. Finally you've got plenty of free space for what you want.

In our metagame with a lot of combo, and a lot of combo hate (read counterbalance and chalice), I believe that aether vial is great. In the same idea, I propose to play utility creatures : Dark Confidant, Jotun Grunt, Trygon Predator, Meddling mage.

My current build of goodstuff blue aggrocontrol deck is the following:

Mana base : 22
4*polluted
4*flooded
1*island
3*tropical
3*tundra
3*underground sea
4*vial

Creatures :18
4*Tarmogoyf
4*Meddling Mage
4*Dark Confidant
3*Trygon Predator
3*Jotun Grunt

Cantrips :
4*Brainstorm 7
3*Sensei's Divining Top

Permission : 7
4*Force of Will
3*Counterbalance

Open slots : 6 (at least 2 blue cards among them, could be 2 jitte, 2 Shadowmage Infiltrator, +1 top, +1 counterbalance)

The good thing about accumulating creatures is that your opponent will probably run out or creature removal at some point. It's even better when you notice that vial enables you to dodge counterspells.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

In Threshold its all about find the right cards against your opponent disrupt him, then lay down a big undercosted fatty and try to win with it. And you do all that stuff in the first 3 turns.

Cantrips are needed to build up the right hand. (And to find all of your 4 Goyfs^^)
Counterbalance is to gain control of the game.
Daze and Fow are here to disrupt the game of your oponent and to fill up the graveyard (daze a jitte and tarmogoyf gets huge)
Mongoose is simply a cheap beater, some builds run other undercosted things like Tombstalker, if we could run 8 tarmos we would!
Removals: Straight and cheap awnsers to threats to stay alive in this format!

As you said there are some basic numbers:
Cantrips 8-12
Counters 8-10
Beaters 8-12
lands 18-20
Removals 4-6
Utility 2-6 (krosan grip, needle and stuff)

Counterbalance could count as counter or utility, same thing for top witch is utility or cantrip

Those numbers have proven well but yes you could adjust them for personal preference and the metagame you play. And dont do thinks like free up 4 removal slots, because you need at least 4 cheap removal!

[aTn]

Eh... ok, moving back to the discussion about UGW-Threshold... I've been playing Der and Adan's list (with -1 Portent, +1 Tropical Island) for about a month now but I haven't had the chance to test a lot against Team America (TA) or Team Europe (TE http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=22402), which is more present than TA in my meta.

For those who aren't aware (and don't like clicking on links), the basic TE maindeck is obtained from TA by the following modifications:-4 Sinkhole, -1 Snuff Out, -2 non-basic lands, + 3 Spell Snare, + 2 EE, + 1 Island, +1 Swamp.

@Adan and anyone else with relevant match-up experience against (preferably) TE or TA: What are your general strategies pre and post board ?

I've found that Back to Basics is a bit too slow to set up against TE (which can recover from it or just disregard it and still win); I therefore side B2B out. It's obviously good against TA (they don't play basic lands), but is it even that efficient considering their clock is rather fast (i.e. they might set up their plan before you can resolve B2B) ?

[Adan]

@Adan:

Here in Berlin we have a different metagame then you in western germany.
What would you change when a meta have more blue fish/fairie decks and landstill instead of Loam.

Is UGr better in that kind meta as Ugw, if so, with or without swans und cb?

I tested Venilion Clique a lot in the last time, and I think it is amazing, specilly when you run counterbalance and be short on 3cc. 3/1 flash flying in blue can't be bad.

Well, I have not touched the deck for ages because school has started again and I'm quite busy and so on... RL and so on... though I am still convinced that RL doesn't exist, there is just AFK.

Whatever, I never had problems with Faerie decks or Blue Fish decks. You can actually out.control them both via Counterbalance. There are just a few cards to keep off the table. I am only a bit afraid of Merfolk. And I have to admit UGw Threshold loses to such random trash.

But I think it's also possible to play David Caplan's UGr Threshold in your metagame, Burnspells can win you games against Landstill, as well as well-timed Wastelands and Stifles.

REBs help against your fishy problems...

Against the above stated decks, you could actually play both DerF's and my UGw variant well as the UGr variant of goobafish, but since I am convinced that UGw is the most versatile variant of both. Against Landstill, you have useful tools like Gadock Teeg, Needles and the Counterbalance lock.

I'd also say that it is a bit more consistent as UGr is quite reliant on tempogaming. If a the cards all come from the top in the wrong timing, things get obsoleted withing a few turns quite quickly. Needs a lot of playtesting to figure out how to time the cards well (I also have some trouble with that from time to time).

[Jaiminho]

@Adan and anyone else with relevant match-up experience against (preferably) TE or TA: What are your general strategies pre and post board ?

I've found that Back to Basics is a bit too slow to set up against TE (which can recover from it or just disregard it and still win); I therefore side B2B out. It's obviously good against TA (they don't play basic lands), but is it even that efficient considering their clock is rather fast (i.e. they might set up their plan before you can resolve B2B) ?

I've never played against TA, but TE seemed favorable the few times I played against it. Difficult, but favorable. They only have 4 answers to STP, which is the key card in this match. My games against them have always gone to the late game, in which CB Thresh has the clear advantage, but TE can still pull wins out of the ass by playing Tombstalker when we don't have Force and connecting enough times until we can find STP. Aside from that, our superior cantrip base and countertop lock them out of everything but Snuff Out and Tombstalker. Mongoose shines here, since they have so few threats.

Anyway, I sideboard like this: +2 Grunt, -2 Predict. As simple as that. Don't pitch extra Counterbalances to Force of Will like ever. You'll need them after it gets gripped, so they can have only a window of 1 turn to try to come back to the game. Also, don't overextend into the B2B plan, unless you can back it up with creature removal and counterspells. B2B will seal the deal, not knock them out of the game, since it's in fact pretty slow.

[Captain Hammer]

I'm starting to wonder if Nimble Mongoose is outdated. Yes, it's untargetable which is fantastic, but it's small, nonevasive and not all that threatening.

Compared to threats like Goyf, Tombstalker and Dreadnought it just seems like Mongoose is so greatly outclassed.

I guess one option would be to just cut Mongoose and the white splash for a black splash and Tombstalker (and thus play Team America)

but is there anything less drastic that we could try instead?

And before you ask, yes I already play 2 Mystic Enforcer.

[Joon]

Well, I made the same experiences. In Balanced Threshold (I don't think that there is White Tempo Thresh) Mongoose aren't that good anymore, but they are still vaible. The Mongoose is bigger than almost every utility critter (Dark Confidant, Meddling Mages...) and helps being aggro or having outs to early critters (like Lackey for example). Mongoose is also good against Landstill as current lists tend to cut Wraths and EE's down to 2 to play Vindicates (Landstill is still a bad Matchups though as he still has 8 ways to kill your Mongoose).

I just think that there aren't better alternatives than Mongoose. A few days ago I met a kinda FaerieNQGw on MWS - he cut the Mongoose for Spellstutter Sprites and played Vendellion Clique instead of Enforcer. I think he also had some Sower of Temptations in there, at least postboard. Dunno if this is a good take on NQGw, I stomped him with TempoThresh :cool:

[Omega]

But there arent good replacement to mongoose yet :(

Against TA, i have to say that my moongoose usually win the game because they can't be hit by their removal. Sure, all of their 8 creatures are bigger than Moongoose, but you already have 4 STP and counters to get rid of them. (If you cant, than you are likely to lose the game anyway)

Or we could play a creature intense list (With werebear and Mystic Enforcer). Mystic are the real bomb, but they cost also too much.

I still think moongoose has its place in the deck. Its a decent 1cc creature. It can apply early preassure to a deck that little or no creature (in the mirror, against TA, landstill sometimes, combo). In the mid and late game, it turns into a 3/3. 2 of them kills a tarmogoyf, which is damn good. Plus, opponent can't kill them.

Robert

[aTn]

Thanks for the advice Jaiminho. It's refreshing to get comments based on actual play situations rather than BS theory that takes only into account 1% of the relevant factors in a match.

About Mongoose, I totally disagree about cutting it. Maybe TA and TE win without Mongoose, but they employ a totally different strategy than UGW-Threshold. In my experience, Mongoose shines against Landstill, Mono-U and other decks trying to get ahold of your win conditions via Shackles and Threads of D.. It's also been great to me against Goyf Sligh.

[Omega]

Talking about TA and TE, i think UGW can really use 4 extra Swords to plowshare with the STE from CONFLUX. Although strictly inferior to STP in many situations, the fact that TA/TE runs so little threat and absolutely no Counterbalance, having up to 8 Swords effects should be more than enough for us to ride to the win

The more i think about it, the more i think the "give opponent a basic land" drawback isnt that bad. In legacy at least. I would not recommend playing STE in t2/extended, where basic land actually matters. I mean, if opponent STE my Tarmogoyf... Sure i get a basic land. But i just lost a tarmogoyf. I dont want basic lands!

The only decks in which STE would be damn bad are against aggro deck that needs basic land to put bigger and more threats


Robert

[Enigma]

It's Path To Exile, Robert :wink: :tongue:

Yes it might be good against TA, but I think Submerge can do a similar job without the drawback (+1 Land or at least a shuffle effect).

PM

[Omega]

But TA has 0 basic land

Submerge, on the other hand, can go through CB, which is a huge advantage, can cost 0, which is another huge advantage. But it doesn't get rid of the creature permantly

PTE costs only W, so it shouldnt be a problem most of the time. But it can be shut down by CB pretty easily, which is a huge disadvantage

The more i play against CB, the more i realize decks need to have MB answer to it. Its just ridiculous to lose a game just because of CB

Robert

[Elric]

Submerge, on the other hand, can go through CB, which is a huge advantage, can cost 0, which is another huge advantage. But it doesn't get rid of the creature permantly


You can Cast your Submerge in response to their Fetchlands. Sure it will work only once (unless your extremly lucky).

[diffy]

2009s first Hassloch Legacy Event: A Tale of Limited to Extensive Fail.

Adan, Brehn and myself decided to play my newest NQG/w list at this month's Hassloch event - with mixed results.
While I failed badly going 2-3-1, Adan came in a solid third (5-1) and Brehn ended up winning the entire thing, going 5-0-1.

Here's what I sleeved up:



/// Maindeck (60 cards)

// Lands (17)
4 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
2 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

// Doods (12)
3 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Jotun Grunt
3 Trygon Predator

// Permission (12)
1 Counterspell
4 Counterbalance
3 Daze
4 Force of Will

// Cantrips'n'Stuff (13)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Predict

// Kill it before it grow (6)
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Oblivion Ring


/// Sideboard (15 cards)
4 Hydroblast
3 Pithing Needle
3 Rhox War Monk (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/188.html)
2 Back to Basics
1 Jotun Grunt
2 Engineered Explosives


Because we're poor Germans, never to have known the Wirtschaftswunder, we couldn't afford more Rhox War Monks (i.e. no one has that shit). Therefore Adan and Brehn played a slightly different Sideboard, featuring 2 Gaddock Teegs instead of 1 Pithing Needle and 1 Rhox War Monk.

Now you're probably thinking: what the hell did these guys smoke?!1on!eeleven - no full playset of Nimble Mongooses or Dazes, Counterspell (/omg welcome back to ze 2004s), Trygon Predators over Pithing Needle, maindeck Jotun Grunts and, to add insult to injury: Rhox War Monk in the sideboard. Three. Count 'em. Three of them. By the way, Rhox What?
Seriously (not the Gears of War one)?!
And if you're reacting that way, rest assured that you're not the only one. In fact, most of Team SPODs very own members (actually, all of them having seen the build?) were only replying "For cereal?!" "Srslywtflulnoobz?!!" (or whatever these translate into German to - which sounds a lot less sharp) for a week or so.

Therefore, I think that I'll have to explain some of the choices:
Maindeck
Trygon Predator replacing Pithing Needle
Mostly a Metagame-Concideration
No one plays Deed/EE anymore, however, Counterbalance is on an all-time high.
Cmc3 to Evade Counterbalance and to reveal with the later is pure awesome
Random Utility is always nice
However, the loss of Pithing Needle's speed hurts
1 Oblivion Ring > 1 Back to Basics
To make the deck even more flexible
Also, Back to Basics has ceased to impress me lately: more and more people get on the "Basics Are Great" train weakening it significantly.
No more Enlightened Tutor
Not really worth the trouble if you don't have Back to Basics main
17th Land
To make up for more cmc3 Spells
3 Nimble Mongoose / 2 Jotun Grunt
As some people already pointed out: it just started to suck some time ago.
Not that a 3/3 shroud guy would be any bad, the problem ist just getting the guy to be 3/3 - which just never happens in time
Jotun Grunt added to compensate for the loss of Mongoose (also for Counterbalance-Curve-Considerations) and because we expected loads of Aggro Loam
However, he sucks badly
Because he's horribly slow
It takes him 2+ turns to shrink a Tarmogoyf
And because, just like Mongoose, he's terrible early
Graveyard dependancy is also something not.hot now that people started to maindeck Relic of P.
Mongoose too
Just because its presence on the board never is relevant
And for all the aforementioned reasons
3 Daze / 1 Counterspell
This just wins games - at least in testing and actual tournament play it never lost a game because it was no Daze but won plenty of games where having Daze n°4 would just have cost you the former.
Mainly because the deck has become even more control-focused and because it takes you ages to actually win (because your non Tarmogoyf beaters are horrible - see above)
Also, due to your beaters being bad, you give your opponent near to infinite time to set up making it easy for him to play around Daze
In fact, I'm even considering removing Daze completely
Sideboard
No Krosan Grips
Not needed to do massive solutions to Counterbalance already being played (2 Oblivion Ring, 3 Trygon Predator main, 2 Engineered Explosives side)
Rhox War Monk
MVP. Like all the time - I board them in a lot to compensate for taking out Nimble Mongoose.
Lifelink and 4 toughness make him an ace against random Aggro against which we don't have a good matchup
That entire Counterbalance-dodging-business is also excellent
Additionally, he races (almost) every creature sans Goyf
He is also an excellent thing to stabilize after the initial assault of the random aggro deck you're just facing - normally you drop pretty low on life before you stabilize meaning that your opponent can just hold on to threats and then overwhelm you in one turn: Rhox War Monk makes this way more difficult
<- Zach T. is not the only one loving the list function

This being made clear, here's a quick overview of my Tale of EPIC Fail:
(no details due to the performance not being worthy of an actual report)

Round 1 vs. BW Deadguy Ale
First game I get a quick, aggressive start with double Nimble Mongoose, Swords to Plowshares on his Spectral Lynx and Dark Confidant - everything looks fine until he drops a Relic of Progenitus and proceeds to completely own me from there on with some random crappy flying beaters (Hypnotic Specter + Wasp Lancer)...
-2 Jotun Grunt +2 Rhox War Monk
Second Game I get another aggressive start with t2 Tarmogoyf, t3 Rhox War Monk (rawr) which quickly finish him despite attempts to race with a Wasp Lancer and to block with a Spectral Lynx (which simply gets sent farming). Most notable plays: him playing second turn Dark Ritual into Grinning Demon which gets met by Daze - from there on he proceeds to play around Daze.
Because of this, I decide to board out a Daze for Rhox War Monk n°3
However, his second turn Dark Confidant walks once again right into Daze - some people just never learn? After he Eradicates (wtf?) my Rhox War Monks, I drop a Nimble Mongoose and proceed to beat for one for ages - no one draws anything relevant which is terribly annoying. Even the more because I have a Sensei's Divining Top on the board. I then have to Force of Will a Black Knight (due to having 2 Swords to Plowshares floating on the top of my library and wanting to continue playing "aggro" with that 1/1 Guy of Infinite Junk). After savagely ripping a Tarmogoyf from the top and preventing his Withered Wretch from hitting play (it would have annihilated the Goyf due to him having infinite mana on the board), I manage to take an extremely frustrating game home.

1-0-0 (2:1)

Round 2 vs. UWb Cunning Landstill
If last game was frustrating, this game was even worse... after an unexciting earlygame (trading Counters and removal for guys and Counterbalances, slowly getting in some damage) he manages to stabilize via Humility and Elspeth which I can handle via Oblivion Ring. From there onwards, the game looks extremely good for me: I have a hand full of good stuff and he's stuck on two cards in hand, a Sensei's Divining Top and a useless Crucible of Worlds. He's at very low life: every threat I have puts him into an all-in situation - he has to handle it or die directly. I put him into such a situation 10-12 times. He always has the removal (despite me being able to get rid of his SdT after some time)... Time is called.

1-0-1 (2:1)

Round 3 vs. UWB Fish
Really boring (and once again terribly frustrating games): they basically boil down to me removing his Dark Confidants, him removing my Tarmogoyfs, him playing a Counterbalance, me handling that Counterbalance, rinse, repeat, repeat? Uh, wait, I can't handle the third Counterbalance? Damn, I loose. Oh, also, Counterbalance-less Threshold is a terrible deck: don't play it, please (i.e. in the same timespan I don't draw any Balances).
-2 Nimble Mongoose -1 Predict -2 Jotun Grunt (screw graveyard dependence, seriously) +3 Rhox War Monk +2 Engineered Explosives
Game2: see Game1.

1-1-1 (2:3)

Round 4 vs. NQG/w
Game 1 I have the Counterbalance, he doesn't (a Trygon Predator was involved in this), I win.
-3 Daze -1 Predict +2 Rhox War Monk +2 Engineered Explosives
Postboard, a Rhox War Monk stalls two Threshed Nimble Mongooses, and, after cantriping into more removal than he has Tarmogoyfs, gets there (with the help of a Tarmogoyf of my own).

2-1-1 (4:3)

Round 5 vs. Survival Elves
Great, a good matchup /sarcasm
He gets a decent start, however, I am able to fend it off via multiple Swords to Plowshares and an Oblivion Ring. I pressurize him via Nimble Mongooses and get him down to 11 life. We're both very low on cards in hand - he then proceeds to draw more Sylvan Messengers and Wren's Run Vanquisher (2+2) than I can draw Forces and other removal and I loose.
-3 Daze -2 Jotun Grunt -2 Predict -1 Trygon Predator +3 Rhox War Monk +3 Pithing Needle +2 Engineered Explosives
I get a decent start with Tarmogoyf + Counterbalance, however his is better with Priest + Survival. After playing Survival he's tapped out meaning that I have to use Engineered Explosives to wipe the board - that hurt. However, I am able to get back into the game thanks to Tarmogoyf - a race sets in. As he drops to 14, I drop to 11 and cantrip into a Rhox War Monk - sweet! I don't have to mention that I simply win the race from there on.
Third game I have an excellent start with 2 Swords, 2 Force of Will, a Counterbalance and two Tarmogoyfs, I have him on 5 life and 2 cards in hand (my hand being empty) when he proceeds to play Sylvan Messenger, Sylvan Messenger, Sylvan Messenger (revealing a total of 9 elves) - drop a board of crappy elves, drop double Elvish Champion... thanks. That'll just do fine, sir.

2-2-1 (5:5)

Round 6 vs. Canadian Threshold
Did I already mention that a good manabase + Tarmogoyf is an absolute foil to Counterbalance-less Threshold?
-1 Counterspell -3 Daze -2 Predict +3 Rhox War Monk +1 Jotun Grunt +2 Engineered Explosives
I mulligan once and keep Flooded Strand + a shitton of cantrips. I play around Stifle and cantrip into stuff, however he has an early Tarmogoyf + Trygon Predator against my Counterbalance + 2x Force of Will + Spell Snare against my Removal and Tarmogoyfs (in that order).
Third game I have an optimal start inclugin a Counterbalance and 3 lands. He then lands a Tarmogoyf - which I respond to with my own. He Submerges it, drops a Trygon Predator which I force. He attacks. I play Tarmogoyf, he Submerges it, plays Trygon Predator, Forces my Tarmogoyf, owns my Counterbalance, Spell Snares my next Tarmogoyf. That's just about enough for today...

2-3-1 (6:7)

Loosing a bad matchup due to an opponent getting the win out of nowhere (jeesh, we have such a fitting expression for this in German, however it just does not translate - it's a shame...), a so-so matchup due to 'only' being able to handle 4 Counterbalances in 2 games, and a good matchup due to apparently playing removal and counter-less Threshold against an opponent spoiled with the later and Submerges is not cool. Also, I had a high tendency to generally play Counterbalance-less Threshold (which is incredibly bad, who would have thought?) and to cantrip/top into nothing but Tops/Brainstorms/Lands.
Not that I want to QQ, but I want to QQ... taking it like a man is easy after all. Not.
However, except for Nimble Mongoose and Jotun Grunt, the deck was extremely solid - especially Rhox War Monk was impressive all day long... I am sure that Adan and Brehn will share their Tales of Not So Much Fail soonish, backing up these conclusions.

Next developments will include searching for alternatives for aforementioned slots (current candidates: Quirion Dryad, Rhox War Monk, Vedalken Shackles, Sea Drake, in that order), a change set in stone is swapping the numbers of Trygon Predators and Oblivion Rings: more flexibility and less clunkiness are always welcome.


As always, feel free to come back to me with questions on the build/choices - due to important exams coming up I don't have as much time to go into as much detail as I'd like to,
Yours truly
C.

[Obfuscate Freely]

I do not understand the obsession with Oblivion Ring. It isn't any less "clunky" than Trygon Predator, and it makes your deck almost as vulnerable to Krosan Grip as Dreadstill is.

I'm also confused as to how you're having so much difficulty reaching threshold. That simply shouldn't be an issue, unless you've cut too many draw spells. I do agree that Mongoose has gotten worse, but I think that's because 3/3's just don't hit as hard as they used to, more than anything else. Of course, trying to support Jotun Grunt probably doesn't help matters...

[Bardo]

I'm also confused as to how you're having so much difficulty reaching threshold. That simply shouldn't be an issue, unless you've cut too many draw spells. I do agree that Mongoose has gotten worse, but I think that's because 3/3's just don't hit as hard as they used to, more than anything else. Of course, trying to support Jotun Grunt probably doesn't help matters...

It's not the lack of draw spells, it has more to do with deck design and the unusually high permanent count:

4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Oblivion Ring
29 Land (8 fetch) / Duders (2 grunt)
= 38 Permanents

Non-perm draw, removal, counters:
= 22 cards that hit the yard

And a lot of those 22 cards are conditional on game state (counters when there's nothing to counter, StP when there's nothing to target, etc.)

Then too, yeah, Grunt and Goose aren't a combo when played the same deck.

I've wanted to play War Monk since I saw him, but he seemed too low on the power curve. That said, against aggro, gobs, burn, Goyf Sligh, I can him being a champ. The size of his butt vs. Goblins is awesome and the life gain + clock is much needed vs. Burn and sligh.

My own list hasn't changed in a wile:

"GP Threshold"

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Divining Top

4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
4 Daze

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thoughtseize

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
1 Island

Sideboard:
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Engineered Plague
3 Krosan Grip
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus

I'm still not sure which should be the 3-of in this crowd: CB #4, Bob #4, Thoughtseize #4, Daze #4.

[Ironstickman]

Hi

I have also found mongoose not performing very well in my white threshold (which is similar to the german lists but with snares instead of needles and no toolbox, 17 lands), specially with all those relics running around. Its great for canadian, no doubt, but white is much slower and its not as efficient. Same for Daze, which is a necessary evil in this fast format, but unfortunately it's not backed up by mana denial to make it more effective.


I had in mind War-Monk but actually never tested it, (couldn't afford t2 cards:rolleyes: ). So do you think a more UWg controlish-like approach would be viable?, incorporating things such as Noble Heriarch (great at goyf stale mates, and helps stablish balance lock quicker), Monks and big beaters to profit acceleration(apart from enforcer, exalted angel perhaps?)


....

I know its turning the deck concept upside down a bit, but truly mongoose is not working for me here and monk seems to improve actually many aggro match-ups to deserve maindeck spots.

p.D There is an article where this is actually suggested http://http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/16978_Unlocking_Legacy_Scepter_Landstill.html
Not sure about jittes, but clique seems ok.

[Omega]

onto real business...

the almost nihilism of Dredge nowadays.
Can we finally remove those tormod's crypt from our SB?

Jotun grunt is probably better in UGW when fighting against aggro loam, or any other gravebased deck

Mongoose : Remove or not remove? That is the question. Everytime we try to remove it, we end putting it back... 1cc is not to be ignored. Although i have to agree to having more 3cc cards will improve this game matchups against CB

Oblivion ring : I am not sure with that card. In certain matchup, he is wonderful (acts as STP #5-6) and can get rid of problematic enchantment (such as Humility). But i do agree that stifle + krosan grip seems to be a pain.

Hmm, 3/4 lifelink. What do you think of Loxodon Hierarch? Not that good eh :O I think im going to try those monks when i get some time...

In my meta, Pithing needle has prove to be absolutely necessary. We have a lot of UGWB landstill, and even against deck like Dreadstill, to be able to stop their manland is a bonus. Its almost never dead

Imo, UGW can play up to 2 Counterspell maindeck. The deck is indeed slower than other version, thus can play more control

[Fossil4182]

I was watching some of the videos from Worlds and on YouTube about Legacy. I think a much better was to look at Mongoose is like this: In the current format, most aggro control decks (the term loosely applies to a lot of decks) only runs around 8-12 Threats max. Most decks run main deck spot removal: StP, Smother, Snuff Out, Burn ect. Few decks run EE and Deed. The videos contended that what most games come down to is that post Counterwars and trading removal, its usually the player left with just one creature left. I mean there are times when I've had Goyf and Nimble on the board sitting across from another Goyf and not being able to attack. But its still a shroud creature one drop that beats for 1/1 or 3/3. Dropping Mongoose means that spot removal is useless and they have to use something like EE or Deed to answer it outside of dropping a creature. A deck like TE which can't dig as fast as Threshold, has only spot removal and only 8 creatures; a 3/3 shroud beater can be problematic to answer outside of dropping a creature. Plus with fetching and snuff out and thoughtseize, that life loss can stack up pretty fast. Its a solid creature for what it is. There isn't a better alternative and its great against aggro decks.

[Enigma]

Last tournament, I was playing Red Trash and won 2-0 against Team Europe. Mongoose did his job very good. Even better than Tarmogoyf. I think what Fossil just mentionned has to be considered: Most decks doesn't have answer to this creature and if your deck succeed to counter/remove the opponent threat, it's really giving you an advantage of hitting 1/3 each turn. Being able to give it Thresh0ld is also a key.

By reading dif's report, it looks like a list as he get isn't the right list to run Mongoose because of: 1- anti-synergy with jotun 2- not enough tempo cards in the grave as red trash can do (stifle, wasteland, fire/ice, spell snare, daze...). If we wanna see the real power of Mongoose, I think we clearly see it in a tempo Thresh0ld deck.

By beeing the control player, mongoose get worse. UGW Thresh0ld is clearly moving to a more control gameplan since Clemen's list is everywhere (B2B+Enlightened Tutor tool box).

PM

[HedleyKow]

I think one reason mongoose isn't seeming as good for me lately, and others apparently, is that threshold decks are playing more and more spells that don't go the the graveyard. Such as Oblivion Ring, Back to Basics, Pithing Needle, and of course already running Counterbalance and Top. Which means you get threshold slower, and a 1/1 isn't very scary, shroud or not. Also, I've noticed more and more people running Relic of Progenitus or Jotun Grunt, which really makes getting threshold difficult.

The most promising replacements I've seen so far are Quirion Dyrad, Rhox War Monk, and also Trygon Predator and Jotun Grunt can get in there for some damage while providing utility. I was actually just looking at a couple of deck lists which use those cards and looked interesting.
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=22724
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=22723

[Captain Hammer]

Maybe it's time to try out Stifle + Dreadnought. Nah, I don't think so, not here, but it is one interesting option to get a real threat into the deck.

Or perhaps the deck should take a page from Team America and splash black for Tombstalker.

[Shugyosha]

@Oblivion Ring: Its simply the replacement for Repeal. De facto permanent solution and cmc 3 for Balance far outweights cantripping and being blue. Krosan Grip that hits Ring won't hit Balance or Top and if the Ring isn't handled shortly after it has been cast you usually had enough time to achieve boardcontrol/find another solution.
It also hits Chalice@1 where Repeal fails.

@Rhox War Monk: This guy is so nuts against a good amount of decks that I play him main. Depends on the meta though. With a lot of Goyfsligh running around he really shines.

@Daze/CS: Currently trying something like this but the problem is that fast decks can put too much pressure on you and Daze is also very good to get second turn Balance through counters. I'm not sure about the 3/1 split but as Counterspells are amazing in the late game I will try that one.


I would play 1 Hoofprints in that list. Its an insane creature advantage machine in the control build.

[Ironstickman]

How about vendillion clique to take care of board removal? Say:

4 Goyf
3 Monk
3 Clique
1 Enforcer
1 Hoofprints

(+Grunts in the side)

18 lands.

That's 8 cards with CMC 3 with O-Rings, which is perhaps too much.

[Shugyosha]

How about vendillion clique to take care of board removal? Say:


Counterbalance takes care of removal. Clique is quite good in non-CB Threshold lists though.

[Ironstickman]

I meant pernicious, EE and the like.
Just wanted something to perform a good role against LS or other aggro-control decks (Dreadstill) as a complement to balance . Anyway, I have to try and test all these ideas, but I ain't got time for it!:frown:

[mackaber]

If people are having a hard time growing their geese you should consider playing more fetches. With 18 lands I find 10 fetches to be really nice for all sorts of reasons.

[aTn]

With all the Stifles we see these days (TA, Canadian Threshold, Dreadstill, etc.), I don't know if it's that good an idea. I'd rather play Mental Note or more Predicts than increasing my chances of getting screwed via Stifle.

[Obfuscate Freely]

With all the Stifles we see these days (TA, Canadian Threshold, Dreadstill, etc.), I don't know if it's that good an idea. I'd rather play Mental Note or more Predicts than increasing my chances of getting screwed via Stifle.
This often comes up during discussions of fetchlands, and I still don't fully understand the logic.

You're already playing more fetches then any opponent will have Stifles. You can't really expect to draw fewer fetchlands than your opponent draws Stifles. You can try to play around Stifle by not playing spells, or by fetching at suboptimal times, but this is rarely a good idea (if you disagree, I'd be happy to have a tangential discussion about this).

I think it is important to realize that, in general, a determined opponent is going to be able to target a fetchland activation of yours with every Stifle he or she draws. In a deck with more than two colors, the same can be said about your duals and your opponent's Wastelands. The best way to beat this type of mana denial is to maximize your ability to draw and play mana sources of each and every color, so you can replace lost mana sources as quickly as possible and continue playing your spells as optimally as possible.

In other words, you want to make consistent land drops (which Threshold already does thanks to its draw engine), and you want them each to be as flexible in their color production as possible. Basically, you want a lot of fetchlands, and the appropriate duals to go with them.

There are other considerations to be made when determining the ratio of fetchlands, duals, and basics in the deck, so I'm not saying that ten is clearly the best number of fetches. However, in all likelihood, a Threshold list with ten fetchlands will be more resilient to Stifle and Wasteland than a list with fewer fetchlands.

[Jaiminho]

You're already playing more fetches then any opponent will have Stifles. You can't really expect to draw fewer fetchlands than your opponent draws Stifles. You can try to play around Stifle by not playing spells, or by fetching at suboptimal times, but this is rarely a good idea (if you disagree, I'd be happy to have a tangential discussion about this).

I think it is important to realize that, in general, a determined opponent is going to be able to target a fetchland activation of yours with every Stifle he or she draws. In a deck with more than two colors, the same can be said about your duals and your opponent's Wastelands. The best way to beat this type of mana denial is to maximize your ability to draw and play mana sources of each and every color, so you can replace lost mana sources as quickly as possible and continue playing your spells as optimally as possible.

The question is not about raw numbers, but at which turn and after how many land drops your fetchland gets Stifled. You explain it yourself in the next paragraph.



In other words, you want to make consistent land drops (which Threshold already does thanks to its draw engine), and you want them each to be as flexible in their color production as possible. Basically, you want a lot of fetchlands, and the appropriate duals to go with them.

Having a non-Stifleable land ready to produce (preferably blue) mana as early as possible is an advantage over having a Stifleable land, since you will be able to start this engine and then be able to get consistent land drops. Without the engine, you are inconsistent. Also, Stifle loses value exponentially when you are able to play other lands.



There are other considerations to be made when determining the ratio of fetchlands, duals, and basics in the deck, so I'm not saying that ten is clearly the best number of fetches. However, in all likelihood, a Threshold list with ten fetchlands will be more resilient to Stifle and Wasteland than a list with fewer fetchlands.

To Wasteland, yes. To Stifle, no.

[Obfuscate Freely]

Having a non-Stifleable land ready to produce (preferably blue) mana as early as possible is an advantage over having a Stifleable land, since you will be able to start this engine and then be able to get consistent land drops. Without the engine, you are inconsistent. Also, Stifle loses value exponentially when you are able to play other lands.
I think it is pretty rare for it to be critical to have a Stifle-proof source of blue mana in the opening hand. Sure, sometimes you can get blown out because you kept a one-land hand and ran it into Stifle. However, in the majority of games against Stifle/Waste decks, your manabase will be under pressure throughout, and colorscrew is more of threat than complete mana denial. That is why you want to improve your ability to produce mana of the appropriate color when you need it, which fetchlands do wonderfully.

[Shugyosha]

The manabase in question already runs only 9 mana producing lands. I wouldn't run 10 fetches and only 7 lands. Even if you can leave fetchlands open (which won't help with Mongoose then...) you have to fetch at some point in the game and losing a land to LD is anything but fun with only 7 lands. Two more make a difference.

You also have to consider that more fetchlands means that you have to fetch away stuff you wanted to keep after Brainstorm/Ponder/Top more often in the early/midgame where mana is scarce.

[Jaiminho]

I think it is pretty rare for it to be critical to have a Stifle-proof source of blue mana in the opening hand. Sure, sometimes you can get blown out because you kept a one-land hand and ran it into Stifle. However, in the majority of games against Stifle/Waste decks, your manabase will be under pressure throughout, and colorscrew is more of threat than complete mana denial. That is why you want to improve your ability to produce mana of the appropriate color when you need it, which fetchlands do wonderfully.

One land hands running into Stifle are obviously bad and those don't even need to be discussed. I think the actual question boils down to whether it's better to get the first land drop as a stifleable land or as a non-stifleable one when you are on the draw. The latter allows you to cantrip earlier and it should put you in a favorable situation compared to the former. It's why you crack your fetch on turn 1 on the play instead of passing the turn right away.

[Cenarius]

We had last sunday a tournament with 156 people, ended on the 20th place. Since I had some misfortune it became hard to win against Goblins and Dreadstill, nonetheless I am pretty confident about the strenght of the deck I played. The list is as follows:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Mystic Enforcer

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
3 Predict
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Enlightened Tutor

4 Ponder

4 Counterbalance
1 Back to Basics
1 Oblivion Ring

3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
1 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

Since it is such a large tournament, my sideboard looks a bit weird. After all the sideboard did just fine, however it was not the most optimal sideboard, I guess. My sideboard looked like this:

2 Meddling Mage
2 Jotun Grunt
3 Krosan Grip
3 Hydroblast
2 Engineered explosives
1 Worship
2 Back to Basics

You are probably all familiar with the list. The Dutch however aren't, so B2B really came as a surprise. I first played 4c threshold for a long time (which can be seen at UGB Threshold, because black is an important colour in that list), but became aware of the list by looking at several lists at deckcheck. I was first in doubt whether Back to Basics was a good card in Threshold, but I saw soon (in testing without telling them that I played Back to Basics) that people just fetched duals and tapped all their lands to play spells, which made Back to Basics even better.
Even if they knew I played Back to Basics, the simple threat of it is just too good to not play the card. Especially horrible matchup's become better - Landstill, Giftstill (build designed by Team Nijmegen which is horrible for Threshold) - even decks which are near 50% like: Team America, Loam, Survival (etc.) become better.

Moving on, the tournament consisted out of 8 rounds. Played two times against ANT, 1 time against Mono red Goblins, 1 time against Burn, 1 time against Team America, 1 time against Survival Rock, 1 time against 4c Threshold, 1 time against Dreadstill in random order.

1st round Mono Red Goblins: 1-2 (had misfortune of having a nimble mongoose on board, blocking a piledriver (4 goblins on board), topdecking a Worship. It would have been a draw, since he did not have Enchantment removal (weird?).
2nd round ANT: 2-0 Game 1: turn 3 B2B after he resolved an Infernal Tutor was GG. Did not have any counters except like 1 daze, because I kept an hand that was decent against Agro(-control)/control. Game 2, an early CB/top earned me the game.
3rd round ANT: 2-1. Played against a friend of mine, that became Dutch Champion last year with ANT. Pretty tough games, which could have gone either way. Luckely it was mine. We both play a lot of games against eachother so we have a lot of experience against eachother.
4th round TA: 1-1. Again both games could have gone either way, he seemed to be very lucky sometimes drawing answers, threats and counters with only 1 cantrip, while I had more cantrips and seemed to get less creatures, counters and answers.
5th round 4c Threshold: 2-0. Again a Back to Basics at turn 5 made me get the game. I had an early CB/top at game 2, which resulted in a 2-0 victory against Threshold. Was pretty proud of it, because 4c threshold is a real pain in the ass for this deck even with B2B.
6th round Burn: 2-1. First game: I had CB, but no Top. He had 3 bolts and more while only a CC 0 was on top. Game 2 and 3: early CB/top made me get the game. The player said he had a good matchup against Threshold, at the beginning I thought it was a joke, but he kept saying that it was......
7th Round Dreadstill: 1-2. Probably the most fun games I played at the tournament. The games were really exciting and fun. I really enjoyed myself playing against the player, because he (and me) made little mistakes. At game 3 he was just more fortunate of getting more goyfs, standstill's and counterbalance's then I did.
8th Round Rock Survival: 2-1. Pretty funny games, however since we both played like 7 hours on a row it was just the question who could be focussed 50 minutes more. It was a pretty weird build, Mystic Enforcer made me win 2 times.

So I went 5-2-1 which isn't bad after all but could have been better. I am pretty confident that the list I played was pretty good. Well, actually every list is decent. There is little space to fluctuate. I am interested in your opinions.

[diffy]

We had last Sunday a tournament with 156 people, ended on the 20th place.


First of all: grats for the solid finish.



Nonetheless I am pretty confident about the strenght of the deck I played. The list is as follows:
(list)


Pretty much standard SPOD/SW-German list so I can vouch for it being good.
Do give Pithing Needle and more Oblivion rings a shot though - they help a lot in bad matchups and aren't bad in matchups all across the board too.

Slots with which you can tinker:
0-2 Mystic Enforcer (1 being a very easy cut)
1-2 Predict (again, one being a very easy cut)
0-1 Lands (possibly to be replaced with more cantrips)
0-1 Daze (possibly to be replaced by a single Counterspell)
0-4 Nimble Mongoose (one being an easy cut)

In those slots, 2-3 Pithing Needles, 0-1 Back to Basics, 0-2 Oblivion Rings, and 0-3 Trygon Predators are the most potent candidates.
I'd suggest adjusting your list to our current list with Pithing Needles (found here (http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=dgbs8px8_4hcj6v6g7&hl=en)) and then start working from there... especially Pithing Needles are incredibly solid in a random metagame, helping tremendously against Engineered Explosives and Pernicious Deed (aka. bad stuff for you) and against randomness.



I do not understand the obsession with Oblivion Ring. It isn't any less "clunky" than Trygon Predator, and it makes your deck almost as vulnerable to Krosan Grip as Dreadstill is.


Oblivion Ring is more flexible than Trygon Predator, for one, but the main reason I call the former less clunky than the later is the reason that Trygon Predator needs a full turn in order to do something - in that turn your opponent can't have removal or flyers in order for Trygon Predator to do his work. Oblivion Ring, on the other hand, can be played turn 3 and enables you to do something that very same turn, too (like for example attack after removing a random nuisance like Humility or a blocker).
Also, as Shugyosha already pointed out: every Krosan Grip hitting your Oblivion Rings isn't hitting your primary source of Ws: Counter-Top.
I will, however, cut back down to 2 Oblivion Rings once Path to Exile is legal.



I'm also confused as to how you're having so much difficulty reaching threshold. That simply shouldn't be an issue, unless you've cut too many draw spells. I do agree that Mongoose has gotten worse, but I think that's because 3/3's just don't hit as hard as they used to, more than anything else. Of course, trying to support Jotun Grunt probably doesn't help matters...

What Bardo said:



It's not the lack of draw spells, it has more to do with deck design and the unusually high permanent count:
4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Oblivion Ring
29 Land (8 fetch) / Duders (2 grunt)
= 38 Permanents
Non-perm draw, removal, counters:
= 22 cards that hit the yard
And a lot of those 22 cards are conditional on game state (counters when there's nothing to counter, StP when there's nothing to target, etc.)


This.



Then too, yeah, Grunt and Goose aren't a combo when played the same deck.


This is actually often enough not an issue as Jotun Grunt isn't dropped early - like ever. He's more intended to be another late midgame guy.
Nimble Mongoose's real problem is just that it's way too slow to reach a significant size - and by the time it grew, its impact on the board is negligible.



I'm still not sure which should be the 3-of in this crowd: CB #4, Bob #4, Thoughtseize #4, Daze #4.

Counterbalance and Dark Confidants should really be four-offs in here - they're just that good. Thoughtseize can be cut down to 3 if you are one of those "4 Daze as a dogma" guys.


If people are having a hard time growing their geese you should consider playing more fetches. With 18 lands I find 10 fetches to be really nice for all sorts of reasons.

I played a 17 land, 10 fetchland, 4 basics configuration for the longest time - it worked good as it helps you dodge land destruction as you can just sit on fetchlands until you use them. However, the recent surge of Stifles made me switch to a less fetchland dependant manabase, with more basics to make up for the slight loss in resiliency.



I would play 1 Hoofprints in that list. Its an insane creature advantage machine in the control build.

I originally tested Hoofprints when it came out and played it for a while, however, I grew to dislike it because of it being extremely clunky - didn't this ever cause you any trouble?

[Cenarius]

Kinda disagree on you.

The reason why I played 2 Mystic Enforcers is because I had trouble finding the card taking into account that I only played 1. Maybe your fund of Trygon Predator, actually I'm not. I'd rather have the certainty of Krosan Grip rather then Trygon Predator (post-board). Since 9 creatures will be too less, 2 mystic enforcer is the minimum and the maximum at the same time. Mystic Enforcer won me so many games in the past, why would I cut it then? It really rocked at the tournament aswell.
The reason why I play 3 predict is because of the fact that it is your own CA. More predicts means faster Threshold, more cardquality and an option against Mystical Tutor (ANT). The card really rock when you are in late game with a Counterbalance but no top. You can just simply reveal the card and decide whether you want the card or not. And even if you have a top, brainstorm, ponder the card even gets better. Going down to two is what I think no option.
I doubt whether 16 land and 1 cantrip (portent) is good. Well I actually dont think so, just by looking at it. I'd rather have the certainty of more land and less cantrips. Portent is not that good for exchange. Normally I play 18 land, so 17 land was already a drop for me. I just want to keep decent hands with 1 land without getting manascrew instead of mulligan to land.
Playing 3 daze and 1 counterspell is what I believe pretty bad, because having a counterspell early instead of a daze just sucks. I'd rather play 4 daze, which rock with B2B then play 1 counterspell because it is better in lategame.
I first had 2 Oblivion rings in mainboard, however I removed the card to get an extra Mystic Enforcer. However 1 Oblivion should be enough, when you also play an Enlightened Tutor.
Pithing Needle is not good enough for pre-board, I guess. I can remember that early Threshold lists (with UGw) also played Pithing Needle. I wasn't fund of the card back then, and will not be fund of the card right now. I just want cards that are: Creatures to win, Counters for nasty spells, Removal for creatures, Card who win the game (CB,B2B) and Cantrips to get those cards. I don't see way Peedle could change a whole game.

However, some of the arguments I just gave, were not tested. They are just what I believe to be the best for the deck. If you can give decent test results of (for example) how 16 land and 1 portent is better than 17 lands, then I might give you the benefit of the doubt.

[Shugyosha]

I originally tested Hoofprints when it came out and played it for a while, however, I grew to dislike it because of it being extremely clunky - didn't this ever cause you any trouble?

Surprisingly no. The card has been a bomb that won nearly all games I had it in play for some time. The current list is really draw heavy and much more boardcontrol than before so it fits perfectly.
I made the experience that you have enough time to break it during your early game where you simply play it and proceed doing other stuff (read: Prevent them from killing you). During the midgame it then produces one token after another until your opponent succumbs.
When drawn in the mid/lategame you usually have 1-2 Tops and occasionlly leftover Brainstorms that will turn it into token-shitting machine.

I'm still not sure whether to play 1 or 2. Depends on the list and if E.Tutor is played. Drawing two sucks hard and is the only real disadvantage I encountered so far.


Kinda disagree on you.

The reason why I played 2 Mystic Enforcers is because I had trouble finding the card taking into account that I only played 1. Maybe your fund of Trygon Predator, actually I'm not. I'd rather have the certainty of Krosan Grip rather then Trygon Predator (post-board). Since 9 creatures will be too less, 2 mystic enforcer is the minimum and the maximum at the same time. Mystic Enforcer won me so many games in the past, why would I cut it then? It really rocked at the tournament aswell.

(...)

Pithing Needle is not good enough for pre-board, I guess. I can remember that early Threshold lists (with UGw) also played Pithing Needle. I wasn't fund of the card back then, and will not be fund of the card right now. I just want cards that are: Creatures to win, Counters for nasty spells, Removal for creatures, Card who win the game (CB,B2B) and Cantrips to get those cards. I don't see way Peedle could change a whole game.


The question about Enforcer is: Did he ever sit in your hand when you needed a FOW pitch or loose? Did you need Enforcer in the situations you described or would a 2 power flyer have been sufficient. With Balance/Swords/Ring you can often control the game long enough to kill with Trygon. The thing is, that he is cmc3 for Balance which is more and more important. Recently I even locked Goblins out of the game with Counterbalance because of 7 cmc 3 slots in my list. FOW and Counterspells were only used for Ringleaders.

@Needle: Aether Vial, Grim Lavamancer and even Wasteland sometimes are things that make your life really hard nowadays. They all could be handled with other cards but Needle is just much more efficient at it. A resolved Deed or Survival from Rock decks is also far too devastating to be ignored.

[aTn]

@Ob Freely relative to the discussion about increasing the number of fetchlands in Threshold (namely for Mongoose) versus the rise in Stifles in the meta:

You make very good points (and sorry for the late reply, I'm a bit tied up at work right now). If the cantrip engine gets running, I agree that you can get out of trouble by trying to make consistant land drops. The problem I was expecting was that with 10 fetches and 7 other lands, it would seem like the potential for Stifle to screw your first land drops (on the draw) would increase, thus slowing down (or maybe shutting down) the possibility to play cantrips to smoothen things out. That being said, I may be horribly wrong, so I'll test a bit and see.

As for the color availability issue, you make a good point, which makes it even harder for me to defend my point of view. I'll definitely test to see if color-screw happens more often than mana-screw with an increased number of fetches.


You can try to play around Stifle by not playing spells, or by fetching at suboptimal times, but this is rarely a good idea (if you disagree, I'd be happy to have a tangential discussion about this).

You're dead on about this topic. I totally agree.

On another note, I'm still having the internal debate of which build to play in my meta. There are decent amounts of Landstill (UW)/ITF, ANT, TA, TE and UGx-Threshold. In the past, I've been playing UGW-Threshold because I find it more polyvalent than, say, Canadian Threshold - in particular vs random aggro decks - but these days I'm a bit confused as to which build to play. UGb-Threshold was good to me a while ago, but then again, I think TA and TE do a better job at the moment. UGwb-Threshold looks solid, but the manabase annoys me a bit with regards to color-screw (vs. TA, TE, Canadian Threshold, etc.). Same concerns regarding UGwr.

[Omega]

i personally run 8 fetchlands and 9-10 lands (17-18 lands list) 18 lands if i expect alot of mana denial. 17 is my usual number

I dont think it is a good to play more fetchland in the current meta. Stifle being so popular, we can't risk getting manascrewed because of it

on a personal note.

im trying
2 pithing needle
3 sensei's divining top
1 EE

with 1 trinket mage for the random amazingness. Trinket was really good in most games. Can help find a sensei's, or just a pithing needle. In some situation, it can even grab and EE, which is another out against CB

but i dont think anyone answered me yet. Do you think it is safe, in the current meta, to completly remove Tormod's crypt from sidebord? (assuming you have 2-3 grunt as graveyard hate). I have not seen a Dredge for months

Robert

edit :
my creature base is
4 nimble mongoose
4 tarmogoyf
1 trinket mage
1 mystic enforcer

Im thinking of playing more creature
2 trygon (i want to try those guys out)

I am also considering MB 2 krosan grip for the next major legacy event. Im losing so many games to random CB. It is extremely frustrating.
I especially remember this play. I play CB. He fow. I analyse the situation (my hand was like Tarmogoyf + sensei's and some other cards). I decide to fow his Fow and hope to gain advantage from CB. I decide to not play my Sensei's, fearing that he might have a daze. On his turn, he play CB. I flip a land. He plays Sensei. GG.

but back on topic. What should i try? 2 md krosa grip, or 2 md Trygon?
I am not sure about the ET toolbox
at the moment,
1 enlightened tutor

3 sensei'S
2 oblivion ring
1 EE
2 pithing needle

I already have 3 MD answer to CB. But i feel it is not enough

thoughts?

[Brehn]

but i dont think anyone answered me yet. Do you think it is safe, in the current meta, to completly remove Tormod's crypt from sidebord? (assuming you have 2-3 grunt as graveyard hate). I have not seen a Dredge for months


I've never played nonblack Threshold with Crypt. The matchup doesn't turn in your favor with 2-4 Crypts in your board, and you need your valuable sideboard space to improve other difficult matchups. If you're expecting a lot of Ichorid, you should splash black or play Canadian Thresh or another deck. It's the same situation with Goyf Sligh, which shouldn't devote sideboard space to the combo matchup.


but back on topic. What should i try? 2 md krosa grip, or 2 md Trygon?

Trygon Predator, the most underplayed card in the format.

[Omega]

would you say its safe to cut to 0 predict in a list that has 4 ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh creature?
11 creature
2 trygon predator
1 mystic enforcer
3 nimble moongoose
4 tarmogoyf
1 trinket mage

i feel like there are so many cards i want to play, yet so little room to fit everything
12
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
3 sensei's
1 e.tutor
11
4 fow
3 daze
4 cb
9
4 stp
2 o ring
1 ee
2 pithing needle

[Nocco]

So I am strongly considering playing White Thresh at GP Chicago, specifically this list:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Trygon Predator

4 Counterbalance
3 Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 FOW
4 Daze
4 STP
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Back to Basics
1 EE/Oblivion Ring (not sure which one)
3 Spell Snare

4 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra

It's basically the SPOD list with some tweaks. I absolutely LOVE the Enlightened tutor, it acts as the 5th counterbalance, 4th top, and lets the deck have a nice toolbox with O-Ring, Needle, B2B, and co. Here are some explanations on my card choices:

Trygon Predator over Mystic Enforcer: I expect to see lots of the mirror and Dreadstill at the GP (moreso than Team America) and Trygon is the stone cold nuts in those matchups. Additionally, in testing there have been many games where Mystic Enforcer would sit in my hand for awhile, waiting for that fourth land.

Spell Snare: I'm really not sold on Pithing Needle, maybe its better here, as Spell Snare is usually found in Tempo Thresh lists, but I like how it counters sooooo many relevant cards in almost every matchup

EE or Oblivion Ring? Don't know which 1-of is right, but I'm leaning towards EE as it just seems so much more versatile, and my experiences with Oblivion Ring in Standard and Extended have made me hate the card.

No Predict:I've never been impressed with Predict, without Top in play its just mill one draw one.

I haven't tested/tuned the sideboard as much, but here is a tentative one:

1-2 Engineered Explosives
3 Krosan Grip
2 Gaddock Teeg
3-4 Jotun Grunt
4-5 BEB/Hydroblast
1 Dueling Grounds
Maybe 1-2 B2B?

Thoughts?

[Cenarius]

Enforcer is the only creature, who can avoid a Goyf Standstill and early kill your opponent before he gets removal. I've never had a Mystic Enforcer in hand wishing it was a Predator. Maybe that is because I haven't played against Staxx, Muc but because of the fact you only play 2 it shouldn't be a problem.
With playing B2B and O. Ring, I have enough 3 CMC preboard and I get probably even more postboard. So choosing a Predator because he has CMC 3 is not really an option, I think.
Then the question whether to play 10 fetch and 7 lands or play 8 fetch and 9 lands. Well, I always played 8 fetch is because it is the perfect number. You are saying that Stifle and Wasteland becomes more played. What do you think of Sinkhole's? If you're afraid of a Stifle, just fetch turn 1 or when he taps out. Lategame it shouldn't be a problem.
Why do you all want to play 11/12 creatures? Trygon Predator is far too slow to become a threat. Trinket Mage is smaller than every creature in the metagame and you want to change those cards in exchange for Mystic Enforcer, which apparently is a kill. I think the ideal list of Threshold should be:
10 creatures
4-6 removal
7-8 counters
8 cantrips
7 CB/top
17-18 land (depends on the build ofcourse)
5 random slots, which could be whatever you like.

Threshold decks are always good decks, no matter what your build looks like. It's just a personal thing to add 3 predict's, because I believe they rock and work together with my Nimble Mongoose and Mystic Enforcer. Predict is the bomb having 15 cards who can reveal the top card of your library.
I believe ofcourse that Back to Basics and Enlightened Tutor are pretty solid cards for this build.
There is actually nothing else to do, but test it. But my feelings say: Cutting Mystic Enforcer is not good.

[mackaber]

@Fetchland debate: The biggest problem I see with running a lot of fetches and few fetch targets is that against decs sporting both wasteland and sinkhole you will be in for a rough ride since they can often completly deny you of a color come lategame. Which will lead to you loosing, but I think it's a risk worth taking.

@Nocco: I'm currently running a list 2 or 3 cards of of yours and I very much agree with the changes you have made. Both Enforcer and Predict are the suckors and Trygon and Spell Snare are incredibly powerful tools in the current metagame. I'd definetly play the O-Ring over EE and I'd try to incorporate at least one needle in te main dec, you'll need it and rarely regret having it.

@SPOD-Crew: Have you guys tested Spell-Snare main? I really feel like it's needed and cutting Predict has never pained me.

[spirit of the wretch]

@SPOD-Crew: Have you guys tested Spell-Snare main? I really feel like it's needed and cutting Predict has never pained me.

First of all, I don't play Grow/w (I play Grow/r), but Predict hasn't been really great for me, too (actually I cut it from my latest list). Clemens (DiF) thinks so, too, but the problem with Spell Snare is actually its CC. It's our aim to optimize the mana curve of the deck for CB and we feel the deck needs more CC2 and CC3 cards instead of more CC1. Apart from the CC, Spell Snare is a really powerful card, especially because it counters opposing CBs on the draw.

[Cenarius]

I still don't see why people would remove the predicts mainboard. UGw Threshold is the most controllish build there could be of all the Threshold list's. Predict is thé late game card there is for the deck. It is the only card that gives Cardadvantage (ofc you can include Counterbalance), removing the card will give you a disadvantage over the other Threshold lists including other agro-control lists.
I think Threshold is such a deck that you can have cards whatever you like and cards that will always be certain (Goyf, Fow, Brainstorm etc.). There is no build that is the most optimal one, if your feelings say it is a good build then you must play the build you want.
I like to play UGw Threshold as the more controllish builds of Threshold, so I decide to include 3 Predict's in it. If I decide to go a bit more agressive I can switch to 4c Threshold (a list from Nijmegen: to be seen at UGB threshold) because I believe it's the best Agro-Control list (overall in our metagame). UGw Threshold has the emphasis on Control, while UGr Canadian Thresh or Black Thresh has the emphasis on Agro.
To not completely make this post useless; today I will test Predator's after peedle's and 16 lands. Could people who do play 16 lands show test results aswell? Like: Howmany hands with 1 land, 2 land, Howmany cantrips in starting hand, top 3 draws from library.
I think if we all put a little bit of effort, we can decide whether strictly speaking: 16 land + 1 cantrip or 17 lands and 8 cantrips is better.

[raharu]

So, with all this discontent with Nimble Mongoose, a desire to play more cards at 2cc for Counterbalance, and White's emphasis on the control role, why not try Meddling Mage? All things considered, it's the best option, as you aren't going to find a better one-drop than Nimble Mongoose in the entire game of Magic, and you aren't going to find a large beater in the 2cc slot outside of Grunt, which has already been considered, a Utility creature is going to be your best bet, and Mage is your best Utility creature.

[raharu]

Except that mage works best only in a format dominated by aggro-control and control and combo. It is extremely poor against aggro. (To a certain limit, mongoose do decently against aggro)

Like this one? What aggro. There isn't any aggro.

Also, Meddling Mage on Tombstalker works.

Something like this?

18 lands

Counter "Wall": 11
Daze x3
Counterbalance x4
Force of Will x4

Hand Crafting: 11
Sensei's Divining Top x3
Ponder x4
Brainstorm x4

Creatures: 10
Tarmogoyf x4
Meddling Mage x4
Mystic Enforcer x2

Assorted Odds and Ends: 10
Pithing Needle x2
Swords to Plowshares x4
Back to Basics x4

Or something. Mage Chants:

Wrath of God, Krosan Grip, Manlands, Wastelands, Engineered Explosives, Pernicious Deed, Tombstalker, Stifle, Sinkhole, Life from the Loam, Burning/ Cunning Wish, Orim's Chant...

The list goes on forever. The format (to me at least) seems rife with targets.

[Jaiminho]

Or something. Mage Chants:

(...) Manlands, Wastelands (...)


As Meddling Mage comes into play, name a nonland card.
The named card can't be played.



The list goes on forever. The format (to me at least) seems rife with targets.

The question is not how many powerful cards there are to stop, but if it can actually stop anything successfully. In the end, all of your creatures will still be vulnerable to spot removal unless you name spot removal and mass removal unless you name mass removal. Too many things to stop in a single deck means Mage is going to have little to no effect.

[raharu]

The question is not how many powerful cards there are to stop, but if it can actually stop anything successfully. In the end, all of your creatures will still be vulnerable to spot removal unless you name spot removal and mass removal unless you name mass removal. Too many things to stop in a single deck means Mage is going to have little to no effect.
Counterbalance?

Yeah... Non-land. I knew that. Fine, fuck Stifle. Pithing Needle fills in the land-hate holes anyway. It seems like the Mage + Back to Basics list has the tools to beat up on pretty much anything. Aside from a lolSHIT BLOW UP EVERYTHING button, it doesn't lack any answers. Spot removal, slow-down mechanisms (B2B, CB), a solid Counter-base to keep everything together early... Like, we're a few FoF/ Standstills and Nevin's Disks/ Wraths away from MUC or Landstill... I have GOT to get Mages.

[Cenarius]

Could anyone give (good) arguments why (UGw) Threshold should have 2 Trygon Predator's or even more in Mainboard?

I thought about Meddling Mage in Mainboard. It is not good enough anymore. The metagame two years ago was totally different. Even if Meddling Mage have good target's, it is still not good enough. Perhaps Meddling Mage is good for Sideboard, but I doubt whether you want to board it often. This is because Threshold already consists of many cards that are fine or good against every matchup. Perhaps Meddling Mage is not needed anymore..

[Shugyosha]

Could anyone give (good) arguments why (UGw) Threshold should have 2 Trygon Predator's or even more in Mainboard?

I thought about Meddling Mage in Mainboard. It is not good enough anymore. The metagame two years ago was totally different. Even if Meddling Mage have good target's, it is still not good enough. Perhaps Meddling Mage is good for Sideboard, but I doubt whether you want to board it often. This is because Threshold already consists of many cards that are fine or good against every matchup. Perhaps Meddling Mage is not needed anymore..

Balance fullfills the job of Mage and sits in the same slot.
Trygon Predator adds more cmc 3 for the balance curve which is better than cmc 4 of Enforcer. As the deck can keep things under control pretty good, one of the flyers will stick and fly over the stalled board even if his ability is dead. But he will find targets especially in difficult matchups. Being able to pitch is huge and people often underestimate this.
Predator is mostly not a "whoah!!" card but it has many little advantages over other cards. Same holds true for other cmc 3 flyers in my opinion like Vendilion Clique or Kira. Its a meta call which to play. Kira is good in a removal/red heavy environment, Clique is good in a control environment. Predator, well an opponent's Counterbalance is one big reason, there are many others.

[raharu]

Balance stops Tombstalker and Krosan Grip?

[hugh1130]

so pretty new to the deck, played white stax for a long time so trying to get into a different mentality

list. the deck isnt completely finished so alot of slots will change

total -17
3 Tropical Islands
2 Tundra
3 Flooded Plains
4 Windswept Heath
3 Islands
1 Forest
1 Plains

orginally the plan was to cut an Island for the 8th fetch but I dont know anymore

total - 10
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Werebear
1 Tarmogoyf
2 Trygon Predator

werebear instead of goyf cause i dont own the goyfs yet, trickle replacement, i like the Predators and they are really a meta call.. i end up seeing alot of epic painter/dreadstill and they help

total - 26
3 Tops
3 counter balance
4 Forces
4 Dazes
4 Brainstorms
4 Ponders
4 Swords

pretty standard

Total- 7
3 Oblivion Rings
2 Predicts
1 Enlightend Tutor
1 Pithing Needle/Relic of Progenius

i alternate between the relic and needle on any give day.. considering worship in the needle/relic spot to cause of lots of random decks i see

Side

3 Grip
3 Teeg
3 Submerge
1 Trygon Predator
2 back to basics
1/2 Pithing Needle
1/2 Relic of Progenius

so thoughts on the list would be helpfull

but yah, my specific questions are on matchups.. Team america type things and dreadstill/epic painter and agro loam

those are the decks i have to most problems,

[PowrDragn]

Anyone have an idea of what a future list looks like post-Conflux, since we can play 8 StP?

[hugh1130]

Anyone have an idea of what a future list looks like post-Conflux, since we can play 8 StP?

i wouldn't play 8 swords

honestsly before you ask this question, you have to ask is Path to exile even a playable card...

[edit] on second thought, if team american keeps getting more popular, id run 8 cause they have an awfully low amount of threats

[Cenarius]

@ hugh1130

You should try this list:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
1 Mystic Enforcer
2 Trygon Predator

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Predict
1 Enlightened Tutor

4 Ponder

1 Back to Basics
1 Oblivion Ring
4 Counterbalance

3 Sensei's Divining top

4 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
1 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

When you play UGw Threshold, you atleast have to play B2B. The card really kicks ass against a lot of Matchup's and against some Matchup's it means a win immediately if timed well.
Personally I don't like Pithing Needle in Mainboard so much, so I changed it to cards who cán change the board. It's just personal. Perhaps u do want to play Pithing Needle.

@ PowrDragn

I personally doubt wheter playing 8 Stp's in Mainboard is really that good. Maybe 2 could be put in sideboard, but on the other hand: you don't really got space for that. If you play B2B you already have answers against TA.

[BackDr0p]

I too am new the the UGW Threshold variant. Unlike UGR Tempo, which I play regularly, this version requires resolving threats/ getting Counter + Top online to protect them.

The list that I am currently playing is based on Der_imaginäre_Freund list:


61 Cards

// Lands
4 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
2 Island
2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
4 Windswept Heath
1 Plains

// Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Nimble Mongoose
3 Trygon Predator

// Counter Magic
3 Daze
1 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

// Removal
4 Swords to Plowshares

// Utility (Tutor Tool Box)
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Back to Basics
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus

// Counter + Top
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance

// Draw
2 Predict
3 Ponder
1 Portent
4 Brainstorm

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Dueling Grounds
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Jotun Grunt
SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 4 Hydroblast


Card Choice:

Trygon Predator:
I've frankly been impressed w/ Trygon Predator. The fact that he can completely turn a game in your favor is the number one reason to run him. Getting rid of problematic things like the opponents Counter Balance, Chalice, Survival and Trinisphere. It also brings my :3:CMC count to 5. As Der_imaginäre_Freund previously stated:



Random Utility is always nice, However, the loss of Pithing Needle's speed hurts.

I completely agree with you. As a result, I decided to compromise and run a needle as a 1 of. Stopping Vial/Survival/Grindstone and occasionally preventing your opponent from fetching (e.i: with Back To Basics on the field).


3 Daze / 1 Counterspell:
Having Daze as a four of would be great but, late game when "Countering target spell unless its controller pays :1: .", has little or no impact on spells controllers game plan. Hence the reason why a single Counterspell is to be played main deck. This would not be a problem if WotC would print a split card combining the two.

The only cool thing about Daze is that w/ an Engineered Explosives (or any :0:CMC spell for that matter) in hand turn 2 and if you've failed to get your second land drop, you can tap your land for :u:,:g: or :w: cast EE for 0, play daze returning your land to your hand, play the land, then tap it for mana casting your Counter Balance or other :2:CMC spell. This is really situational but when it happens it is always nice.

Daze can also protect your lands from wasteland, sinkholes, vindicate, Devastating Dreams, etc., but you guys already know this.

Relic of Progenitus:
Relic main deck is a must, since around here I see lots of Aggro Loam//Rock-ish Survival builds. Once they get their engine online it's pretty much impossible for me to stop it in time. it's also fun to get rid of some reoccurring threats. It may not stop them completely, but at least it will slow them down enough so that I can find better answers. Relic may seem anti-synergistic in threshold, but it's occasional use are worth. This is a meta slot.

Engineered Explosives:
EE is another situational card which really shines when getting rid of enemy Counterbalance's. Being able to dodge CB is a plus.

Sideboard:

The single Dueling Grounds is to be fetched, w/ E. Tutor. Helping me versus: Goblin's, Merfolk, Ichorid (If I live to see turn 3) and other random aggro. Goyf usually ending up being the fattest creature on the field.

The P. Needle, Relic of P. and EE, when paired w/ E. Tutor end up being "virtual" 3 of's.

The rest is pretty standard.

The only questions I have is playing against Land Still. They run more removal than I run threats, they play Goyf, they play more counter magic and also run CB + Top. I usually end up winning G1 w/ a well timed B2B. G2 however, is a different story. They fetch their basics and win. Any boarding strategies/ suggestions on how to play this matchup?

[b4r0n]

Alright, so multiple people now have suggested Relic of Progenitus in Threshold. This seems like one of the most terrible ideas that I've heard suggested in this thread, and probably on these forums. Relic is a tool for fighting Tarmogoyfs if you don't run your own. If you want to hate on graveyards, run Tormod's Crypt. So, since Threshold relies on Tarmogoyfs and creatures with Threshold, running Relic seems like one of the worst possible choices you could make with this deck.

Hell, you should expect people to be bringing them in against you. So once again: Relic is absolutely terrible in Threshold. There's no reason to run it.

[bowvamp]

What is the general opinion on Knight of the Reliquary? I am not a long term Threshold player, but from playing it (Threshold) alot it seems very useful in Thresh.

[ParkerLewis]

The only cool thing about Daze is that w/ an Engineered Explosives (or any :0:CMC spell for that matter) in hand turn 2 and if you've failed to get your second land drop, you can tap your land for :u:,:g: or :w: cast EE for 0, play daze returning your land to your hand, play the land, then tap it for mana casting your Counter Balance or other :2:CMC spell. This is really situational but when it happens it is always nice.

Not only is it not nice (I don't see how wasting two very powerful cards can ever be), it's also a few orders of magnitude more than situational. You have to be stuck on one land, you have to have the one and only 0 cmc card in your deck (the usually singleton EE), AND you have to have a Daze. And also, not have anything like a Ponder of Brainstorm that would be here again orders of magnitude better to play.

What's the probability of that ? Like 5 % simply to meet the EE + Daze prerequisities ? Probability that drops to what, less than 1 % to also meet the mana screw + no Ponder / BS ? How did you even keep a hand like that, anyway ?

Certainly that's NOT "the only cool thing about Daze".


What is the general opinion on Knight of the Reliquary? I am not a long term Threshold player, but from playing it (Threshold) alot it seems very useful in Thresh.

Hmm, if this is the new 3cc critter that gains +1/+1 for every land in your gy, i'd say the card lacks some sort of evasion. I mean, it's either overcosted compared to tarmogoyf, or simply not standing the comparison with enforcer at 4cc. Point is, if you have a slot for another creature besides Tarmogoyf and Mongeese, Enforcer is clearly better.

[dr.knockers]

I played this list for ages:

4 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trygon Predator
2 Mystic Enforcer

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare
3 Counterbalance

3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives

It play's really solid. the only thing i would currently change might be the 3 engineered explosives. Maybe for MD peedles or something. Furthermore i think predict is outdated. You have 4 brainstorms, 4 ponders and 3 tops. You really don't need predict in that case, not for the threshold and not for the cardadvantage. I would choose spell snares over predicts any day.

[Omega]

Yea, knight of reliquary might not make it into ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh (although i will definately test it). I hate how the card is graveyard dependant. We already have mongoose and 1-2 mystic enforcer. The deck needs more creature that can survive after a relic of progeniture (Tarmogoyf can still grow faster than mongoose, who needs 7 cards)

I think
4 geese
4 goyfs
2 mystic enforcer
2 trygon predator

are going to be my boys in my next version

[rsaunder]

I've been running this creature base recently in all splashes of CB thresh, and it's been just nasty:

4 Goyf
3 Goose
2 Clique
2 Predator

It rounds out the mana curve for CB really nicely too.

[godryk]

I've been running this creature base recently in all splashes of CB thresh, and it's been just nasty:

4 Goyf
3 Goose
2 Clique
2 Predator

It rounds out the mana curve for CB really nicely too.

I've been trying simillar ideas as I felt I needed more threats, so I moved to a very simillar creature base (with only difference being the 4th Mongoose as I had room for it).

The list now looks like this:

12 creatures
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Trygon Predator

31 other spells
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Oblivion Ring
2 flexible slots: currrently Predict, but also could be Spell Snare, Pithing Needle, EE...

17 lands
4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswepth Heath
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

I'm pretty satisfied with both Vendilion Clique and Trygon Predator. I'm never sad to topdeck a Vendilion, with a very confortable manacost and many interesting uses, specially for breaking stalemates, when hiding a good card can turn the situation favourable.

Trygon Predator, on the other side, has a decent body and becomes huge in many matchups, with well-known relevant targets. In a usual meta with strong CB presence is never a dead card. And is amazing VS Dreadstill, Painters and all those Trinket decks. Sadly it gets hit by REBs, but you can't have everything in life. And is so nice to make them spend a mana every turn for playing over and over again his Top (and if you have Predict... hum). It's also nice for forcing opponents to break their damn Relic.

I think I will stick with that creature base, but I'm still testing. I have now 2 free slots which can easily become 3. Now I'm playing Predict, which I haven't since a long time, but seeing the good results DIF and other guys have had, I'm giving it a second (or fifth) chance. However, these can actually become Snares or whatever.

[Cenarius]

You should consider playing B2B. At least 1 in Mainboard. The card also makes Matchup's better like Landstill, Giftstill, TA etc.

This could mean:

-1 O. Ring
+1 B2B

Try it.

[mackaber]

You should consider playing B2B. At least 1 in Mainboard. The card also makes Matchup's better like Landstill, Giftstill, TA etc.

This could mean:

-1 O. Ring
+1 B2B

Try it.
Without maindec Enlightend tutor one offs are really pretty random.

[Sage]

Nice lists guys! I have been struggling with the same issues, aka not enough threats and no evasion, also loosing to aggro and Dreadstill more than I would like. VC especialy looks interesting as quite the trick response to tutoring effects and such. A few questions if you don't mind;

What do your SB's look like at the moment? (how does this deck beat aggro)

Are 2 Trygon Predators good enough against Dreadstill?
(would a third be better, as seeing at least 1/game would be much better?)

Is an ET pkg worth it, or am I just wasting my time?

Thanks!

[raharu]

Without maindec Enlightend tutor one offs are really pretty random.
11 Cantrips though :rolleyes:

[sauce]

i got spanked while playing ugw dreadstill when i went to get counterbalance via enlightened tutor... my opponent cast predict on me :(

[aTn]

I'm pretty sure this was brought up earlier, but why not play Serendib Efreet in the V. Clique slots ? Are Clique's abilities that good in general (or is it simply situational) ? A bigger ass might be relevant if Canadian Threshold is present.

[rsaunder]

Eh, if I was going to play a [vanilla] beater I'd run Enforcer. Clique is good because of its abilities and especially because its abilities are at instant speed which is important in a controlly deck like this. Pulling wraths/goyfs/removal/recurred EE/loam is really solid. Same with matron targets.

[godryk]

You should consider playing B2B. At least 1 in Mainboard. The card also makes Matchup's better like Landstill, Giftstill, TA etc.

This could mean:

-1 O. Ring
+1 B2B

Try it.

Now I'm leaving B2B in the sideboard. I've never liked Enlightened Tutor. But I may try that as I feel I have some slots to test anything I feel like.

@Vendilion Clique: I'm really in love with VQ. Almost any time I've played it, it has had some impact on the opponents' plans. As stated by rsaunder, "getting rid" of key cards is better than you may think, specially when you are putting a 3/1 flyer into play. With so many Goyf stalemates around, I think flying is underrated.

@Trygon Predator #3: I think it's up to if you play aditional flyers. If you do, I'd leave extra removal to de SB.

@ The SB: I'm not sure, I'm starting to test something like this (support would be reallly appreciated):

4 BEB
2 Krosan Grip
2 Jotun Grunt
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Pithing Needle
3 ?????

This (http://www.elsantuario.es/foro/index.php/topic,3740.0.html) is the metagme breakdown of our last monthly event. Red-based aggro and Merfolks are rising. Merfolks is particulary worrying. Any SB tips?

[Captain Hammer]

You guys looking for another beatstick in the deck...

I have been trying Knight of the Reliquary along with some Wastelands and Knight has been AMAZING in the deck. Better than Goyf imho (yes, I know that's blasphemous). Early game he often comes out as a 4/4 or 5/5 even without you having to use his pump ability. Midgame, he comes out a lot bigger. Once you use his ability to grab a fetchland or wasteland just one time, he gets +2/+2 and becomes a 6/6 or a 7/7, big enough to beat everything in the format short of Dreadnought. Each use to get a fetch or wasteland gives him +2/+2. It makes for a great combat trick right after declaring him as a blocker.

Fetching a wasteland with it to shuffle away some cards, Wasting their land, and pumping the knight +2/+2 in the process is a huge tempo boost.

I'm going to build around the guy even more now.

I'm thinking...

4 Wasteland
3 Crucible of Worlds
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Maze of Ith/Treetop Village/Mishra's Factory

all would work together really well in the deck.

But you don't need to go to those lenghts to play Knight.

Just play him in any build that plays Wastelands already and he's better than Goyf!!!

[Omega]

Knight of the Reliquary

will surely be one of the chased rare of the set. I am convinced it will be very good

But can they make it in ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh? What to cut? I really want to play them since they cost 3 and easily dodge CB

Robert

[rsaunder]

Knight of the Reliquary

will surely be one of the chased rare of the set. I am convinced it will be very good

But can they make it in ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh? What to cut? I really want to play them since they cost 3 and easily dodge CB

Robert

Clique, enforcer, and predator are better choices right now.

[Omega]

I am actually playing Trygon and Enforcer

Trying Knight wont be a bad idea (at worst, i will know that it doesnt suit UGW)

[Captain Hammer]

I urge you to atleast test out Knight in Clique or Predators slots. If you can, squeeze in Wastelands into the manabase too. But it's not essential.

I think Knight is better than Clique. Atleast try him as a 2 of in Clique's slot.

Trygon Predator is insane in certain matchups, but dead in others including all sorts of random matchups (team america, elves, burn, loam, etc).

[Omega]

Against elfes, not much to be done except survive... Drop a CB and try to beat them with your own creatures. But its hard when the deck runs like 8 elvish champion (that are almost MUST counter) and runs ANTI goyf creature with deathtouch

Robert

[ebbitten]

I urge you to atleast test out Knight in Clique or Predators slots. If you can, squeeze in Wastelands into the manabase too. But it's not essential.

I think Knight is better than Clique. Atleast try him as a 2 of in Clique's slot.

Trygon Predator is insane in certain matchups, but dead in others including all sorts of random matchups (team america, elves, burn, loam, etc).

Trygon Predator may not be optimal in many of those matchups but it can still hold it's own as an evasive flyer, while being clutch in some of UGw thresh's worst matchups (I'm looking at you geddon stax). Also against loam they will have chalice at 1,seismic assault or mox diamond some of the time.

[Sage]

I playtested against Merfolk pre and post board a few nights ago and it was miserable. At least in my opinion, UGw Thresh has a hard time with aggro as it has no sweeper in the SB(firespout, pyroclasm, etc.). I do think that Merfolk and Affinity will be something that you will play at least 2-4 times if you are planning on going to Chicago. How do we beat this deck? Wasteland doesn't hurt it (all basics), and they are able to play aggro or control when needed, and they play Stifle to own your fetches... I can see why this deck is becoming popular. Any ideas?

[Bardo]

I'm not sure what incentive there is to remain 3-colors at this point. To be honest, I'm not sure what incentive there was to ever play 3-color Thresh in Legacy. With 8+ Onslaught fetches and a fair number of A/B/U/R duals, you can just play 4c with minimal color screw.

I'd splash black for Thoughtseize in the main and Engineered Plague in the sideboard. If you splash red, you get burn in the main and REB/Pyroblast + Pyroclasm/Firespout in the sideboard. Either of those options gives you a much better game vs. Merfolk and any other tribal deck.

Honestly, even with a lot of non-basic hate, I think 3c Thresh is obsolete (unless you're running the LD package with Wastelands).

[raharu]

I agree. We've (Battletoadz) been waffling between 4 and 5 color recently, but 3 color hasn't even really been a factor. The only reason 3c was an option originally was funding. At 18 lands you can fit a decent amount of basics in and still dodge colorscrew.

[kabal]

I'm not sure what incentive there is to remain 3-colors at this point. To be honest, I'm not sure what incentive there was to ever play 3-color Thresh in Legacy. With 8+ Onslaught fetches and a fair number of A/B/U/R duals, you can just play 4c with minimal color screw.

Funny that you mentioned that. I played 4C Thresh (Ugwr) today at a 28 person tournament. I lost in the top 8 to Brassman's Ugbr Counterbalance Control.

Round 1: ANT (2 - 0)
Round 2: 43 Lands (Drew do to time up)
Round 3: Gwb Rock (2 - 1)
Round 4: Red Death (2 - 0)
Round 5: Ugbr Counterbalance Control (0 - 2)

// Lands
1 Forest
1 Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
1 Mystic Enforcer
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trygon Predator

// Enchantments
4 Counterbalance

// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Rushing River
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Ponder

// Artifacts
3 Sensei's Divining Top

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Pyroclasm
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt


REB helped, but Pyroclam was never boarded in. I feel 4 colors is definitely the way to go. Reason I opted for the 4th color is due to how much tribal aggro infest my meta.

[Omega]

how about going suicide mode with 5c ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh?

i dont think thoughtseize are needed though in a controlish version of ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh

what are your thoughts?

17-18 lands
1-2 island (are those even needed?)
8 fetchland
2 tropical
1-2 tundra
1 volcanic island
1-2 underground sea
3-4 city of brass

creature : 14 (thats alot)
4 confidant
4 goose
4 goyf
2 trygon predator

counter 12
4 cb
4 fow
4 daze

draw 11
4 bs
4 ponder
3 sdt

removal 6
4 stp
2+ vindicate

any thoughts?

Vindicate is clearly better than oblivion ring.
confidant are probably superior to predict

maybe cutting the 2 trygon to drop to 12 creature and up to 4 vindicate..

Robert

[johanessen]

why u need red? side?

[kabal]

why u need red? side?


I feel 4 colors is definitely the way to go. Reason I opted for the 4th color is due to how much tribal aggro infest my meta.

[MSC]

A much more Inconsistent Manabase just for Sideboard Cards? Not playing Back 2 Basics makes some Matchups a lot worse, too...

If you have a more Aggro in your Meta why not just play Red-Grow?

[kabal]

A much more Inconsistent Manabase just for Sideboard Cards? Not playing Back 2 Basics makes some Matchups a lot worse, too...


Really?? replaced 1 Island and a Plains with 2 volcanics. I wouldn't say that is making it "much more" inconsistent.



If you have a more Aggro in your Meta why not just play Red-Grow?

Because StP is way better right now than lightning bolt. When you say Red-Grow, I'm not sure if you are referring to Tempo Thrash or Red CB Threshold. Counterbalance was definitely the MVP for me all night and should be most games you play. I played (and do play) against many threats which are outside of range of burn.

My feeling is that Ugwx Threshold is the best version. You get Stp, CB and some good ways to deal with tribal aggro. I prefer the red splash just because it hits for 2 and they typically can't recover. Not to mention you get to board in REB which gives you a nice edge in the control MU.

[aTn]

About 4c builds. I have been tinkering with UGWr-Threshold these days. One of my testing conclusions is that Lightning Bolt is not necessary in the deck.

Essentially, like many have done before, I've decided to splash red for Pyroclasm and REB-Pyroblast - making the deck UGW-Threshold with a red splash for these SB cards.

Here is my current iteration.

Some like to play 19 lands in this deck (see the recent Top8 list http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12603), I'm not sold on the idea... I'd like to hear your suggestions on everything, including the manabase.

I've left out the sideboard, since it needs work. Needless to say REB/Pyroblast and Pyroclasm would be included in it.

About the basic plains - it's there mainly to prevent mana denial decks (TA, Canadian Threshold, etc.) from denying Swords to Plowshares.

Creatures (11)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Trygon Predator
1 Mystic Enforcer

Control (12)
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 CB

Draw (13)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 SDT

Removal (6)
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Engineered Explosives

Other (2)
2 Pithing Needle

Mana (18)
4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

[MSC]

Really?? replaced 1 Island and a Plains with 2 volcanics. I wouldn't say that is making it "much more" inconsistent.


The Problem with the 4th Color is, that it makes you more easy to Disrupt. There are 2 Points to this:
1) Less Basic Lands mean, Wasteland, B2B and Blood Moon is more effective against you. You have so few Basics, that you cannot play all your spells from them.
2) You get your 4th Color with your 3th Land, which you first have to get. You may have to use Cantrips, that should be finding Business. It also means, its easier to cut you off from one Color.

At a Side-Effect, it makes less hands keepable. A Hand with Double Volcanic Preboard is most time a No-Go...

Maybe "much more inconsistent" is to hard, but I've played around with 4C-Manabase and had a lot of Problems with it.

[Bardo]

You'll have to play harder and can't rely on your basics as a crutch, but you get a lot more power. Here's my mana for U/g/w/b

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
1 Island

With this sideboard:
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Engineered Plague
4 Tormod's Crypt [Meta-slot]
3 Krosan Grip

Again, you can shift some of the increased vulnerability to B2B, PoP, Wasteland, by cracking your fetches at the right time, getting the right land, antipicating non-basic hate, etc.

[Cenarius]

Team Nijmegen built this 4c Threshold list:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Jotun Grunt

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3/4 Daze
4 Swords to plowshares

4 Ponder
3/4 Thoughtseize

2 Vindicate

4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining top

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp

What did that UGBr list play? What had it as replacement of Swords to Plowshares?