[OLD] UGw Threshold [Archive] - Page 8

diffy

01-30-2009, 09:25 AM

You'll have to play harder and can't rely on your basics as a crutch, but you get a lot more power. Here's my mana for U/g/w/b

(see below)

With this sideboard:
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Engineered Plague
4 Tormod's Crypt [Meta-slot]
3 Krosan Grip

Again, you can shift some of the increased vulnerability to B2B, PoP, Wasteland, by cracking your fetches at the right time, getting the right land, antipicating non-basic hate, etc.

Thing is, apart from Engineered Plague and/or Pyroclasm/Red Blasts there is nothing you'd want from splash colours - and the holes these cards fill can be stuffed otherwise, at least to a certain extent: more Krosan Grips, Engineered Explosives, Oblivion Rings, Trygon Predators against Counterbalance, plus Engineered Explosives and Rhox War Monks against swarm aggro. For sure these cards are less potent against Tribal Decks, especially Pyrocalsm/Firespout would make quite an addition for those matchups, however I do believe that the loss in consistency resulting from the more shaky manabase does not make up for this surge in power in some matchups.

Compare your manabase to mine:

4 Flooded Strand.............4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta...............4 Windswept Heath
3 Undergound Sea............
3 Tropical Island..............2 Tropical Island
3 Tundra........................2 Tundra
1 Island.........................3 Island + 1 Forest + 1 Plains

Granted, every land in your deck produces blue mana, however, your list is also quite colour hungry as you want access to all four colours from turn 1 onwards making fetchland-low draws or playing against disruption much harder. Not saying that it's impossible, however, it does, in my opinion, outweigh the gains you get from stretching your manabase.
Also, having to play 1-2 more lands than a build with basics is something I do not fancy either as already with 16-17 lands I get flooded quite often.

I've written something on this issue before, so I'll just copy it over here:

I personally prefer the white splashed, Counterbalance-starring, build (something like this (http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=dgbs8px8_4hcj6v6g7&hl=en)) because I feel that it is the most consistent build. Although it is not the most broken variant you can play, it is the best at doing what it supposed to do: control the game, drop some fat and win.
It's not one of those 'greedy' builds like for example 5c Thresh because it doesn't need to go greedy as Pithing Needle and Predict are just as good or even better replacements for Thoughtseize and Dark Confidant, at least in the German metagame: the former because it helps against topdecks/drawing or cantriping into random shit that owns you (like Pernicious Deed, Engineered Explosives, Survival of the Fittest etc.) and the later because it doesn't have a huge 'target me, please' sign right on its face meaning that it will actually produce some card advantage (and not only trade 1 for 1 with your opponent's removal which he'll have in excess anyway due to your overall low creature count). Also, the build minimizing on the situational/conditional cards (like Back to Basics, the alternative Blood Moon that doesn't force you into bad colours) and running more 'good' cards (like Swords to Plowshares over the black alternatives [/Captain Obvious]) makes it better against randomness i.e. against Legacy.
Also, did I mention the manabase being absolutely hawt? Like as it 'letting you totally ignore most of the common Threshold hate' (Blood Moon, Wastelands, Back to Basics etc.) and therewith creating virtual card advantage against loads of decks which translates into more easy wins?

Sure 5c Thresh is one of the most powerful builds out there, problem is that it's also one of the more inconsistent ones (manabase issues, colour issues, life issues etc.) which leads to the question if you're willing to trade away consistency, which after all grows in importance with the length of the event, for a little gain in power.
If you're looking for power over consistency, I'd strongly advise you having a look at NQS (list here (http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dgbs8px8_7pbf5xpf9)) which probably is the most powerful variant out there because you combine so many game-plans and plain and simple good cards in one pile.
The problem: you loose against more random stuff which other variants (like for example the Ugw one) can simply ignore.
The Ugw list, on the other hand, has a tougher game against the average opponent: you wins are rather based on knowledge and skill than on mere power, but you have more tools to win based on these two factors than with any other list - the list lets you capitalize most on your abilities as (Legacy) Player. I'm much more comfortable with this than with anything else.

aTn

01-31-2009, 06:58 PM

Jaiminho

01-31-2009, 07:04 PM

getting rid of Humility

That, sir, is a lie or a cheat.

conboy31

02-01-2009, 12:17 AM

Random thoughts:

I was doubting the relevance of Trygon Predator in the MD, but I've tested it and I have to say he's great (even if his ability is conditional to him connecting). He's won me games against Landstill (stopping the CA non-sense of Standstill once he's on the board, getting rid of Humility, making Deed and EE slower because they need to be cast and activated before Predator connects), Threshold (getting rid of CB and Top), getting rid of Relic of P., getting rid of the random CotV, etc.. Anyhow, I guess this was obvious to all of you, but I needed to test it to be convinced.

As per the previous poster, I found myself nodding until the humility comment. Maybe moat? As that opens up your ground game again. As for predator, I have been a fan of it over the last 2 or so years. I was relatively unfamiliar with it until I visited Japan and noticed how many t2 players were using it and baptizing all sorts of targets. If landed it is also problem pre-board for dreadstill so you can also add dreadnought to that list.

godryk

02-01-2009, 09:21 AM

With Relic of Progenitus seeing more play (besides other obvious targets, mainly CB), Trygon is getting more a more useful to me. Ok, it can't handle Humility, which however has not a big presence in many metas. I actually play it as a 2-of with Krosan support form the board and I'm quite liking it.

Captain Hammer

02-02-2009, 12:00 AM

My meta is aggro, lots of creature decks.

So I really wanted to modify my thresh deck to have a much higher threat density (my threats usually outmatch their threats). And yes, I want to stick with UGw.

So this is what I where I wound up....

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Mystic Enforcer
2 Rafiq of the Many

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

As for why I opted to play Rafiq. Trygon Predator just isn't very good in an aggro dominated meta. Where as Rafiq is fantastic with this high threat density. The turn you cast it, you can swing with any of your threats for a massive amount of damage. Hell, Mystic Enforcer by itself swings for 14 points of damage under Rafiq.

Let me know what you think and help me improve it.

from Cairo

02-02-2009, 12:36 AM

Knight seems like an underwhelming threat, given that you have to be tapping it to get the effect, I guess its good to hold back as a potential blocker then use the land ability during opponent's end step. I don't know, I guess I just don't like that you have to pick whether you use it as a utility creature or a beater.

Personally I'd rather use the slots you allocated to Knight to add more utility, like Oblivion Ring, or Engineered Explosives, since they can deal with creatures against agro or eliminate non-creature threats against other decks.

Captain Hammer

02-02-2009, 12:53 AM

Knight is fantastic. It comes into play as a 4/4, which isn't bad for 3cc. That it pumps itself +2/+2 everytime it uses it's ability is just the icing on the cake.

Having the utility to use it as either an attacker or deter an attack and use it as utility, or block and use it as uilitity is a pro not a con.

Like I said, I face lots of aggro.

They attack. You declare Knight as a blocker and in response, tap the Knight to sacrifice a tapped land for a fetchland/wasteland, and use that land's ability, and boom, Knight gets +2/+2 and blocks and kills their attacker.

Drop a Rafiq next turn and swing with a 14/7 Knight that same turn.

Knight also combos with Sensei's Diving Top to always get you the card you need each turn. It even combos with Top + CB to make absolutely certainly that CB counters their spell. And it's ability to grab Wasteland after Wasteland makes Daze that much better as well.

Jaiminho

02-02-2009, 01:11 AM

Knight is fantastic. It comes into play as a 4/4, which isn't bad for 3cc. That it pumps itself +2/+2 everytime it uses it's ability is just the icing on the cake.

4/4 is terrible for an unaccelerated 3cc creature. Anyway, Knight won't attack if it's pumping itself. Giving your opponent (not aggro, obviously) time sucks. Just saying...

Captain Hammer

02-02-2009, 01:35 AM

4/4 is terrible for an unaccelerated 3cc creature.

Wrong. 4/4 is fairly large for an early game threat. And he's much much bigger by the midgame.

By the time you reach threshold, he will be a 6/6 or bigger without you having to use his ability at all.

Of course, you can use his ability to help you reach threshold faster. You can use it to combo with Top. You can use it combo with CB + Top. You can use it to Waste away opponent's lands and cut them off of a color.

And you can do all this while using him as a very large blocker.

Like I said initially...

My meta is aggro, lots of creature decks.

So I really wanted to modify my thresh deck to have a much higher threat density....

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Mystic Enforcer
2 Rafiq of the Many

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

I'm using him against aggro. The plan IS to use him as a blocker in the early game.

He really is a bomb against aggro. And a must counter/kill asap threat against control decks too, same as Goyf.

He starts off as 6/6 blocker in the early game thanks to his ability after all.

And with all the removal floating around, I needed another bomb against aggro and control besides Goyf.

bowvamp

02-02-2009, 02:12 AM

Aggro_zombies

02-02-2009, 03:52 AM

Jaiminho

02-02-2009, 06:49 AM

Merfolk and Elves both have lords that grant all their guys evasion. In Goblins, you can't block the one guy you really need to with Rafiq (Piledriver).

Rafiq is just bad no matter how you slice it. Use Hierarch or Finks if you need guys that give aggro hiccups.

Or even Rhox War Monk. That blue part of the cost doesn't really matter, since it's impossible to have 3 lands and no islands.

Captain Hammer

02-02-2009, 09:12 AM

Against what aggro are you running? Blocking against aggro like goblins, merfolk, or elves all seem like a sure fire way to die. Oh, I blocked 1 of your 12 creatures... and I take 16 damage ftl.
Seriously, Rafiq is a win more, is horrible at even doing that and has "daze me!" written all over it...

Yeah, because goblins starts out the game with 12 creatures on the board. :rolleyes: Please. When was the last time you played against goblins? I played against goblins just last night. They get maybe one-two swings in (assuming the first thing they dropped wasn't Lackey in which case you used your StP or FoW or Mongoose to stop it) before you can start blocking their bigger threats with Goyfs and Knights. And yes, blocking Piledriver with either Goyf or Knight can save your butt. It doesn't matter than just 2 of your creatures can't block and kill Piledriver, because the other 14 of your threats can.

I agree with you that elves can still be a tough matchup (I dont think it's possible to consistently beat elves with thresh), but my list beats goblins and merfolk and all sorts of other random aggro without any problems.

Rafiq is there to quickly shift the dynamics of the game against fast aggro. And it does this virtually every single time it drops against fast aggro...

I spend the first several turns either detering their attack with one of my big guys or if they attack, blocking and killing their main threats with my big guys (Goyf, Knight, Enforcer, even Mongoose when desperate). Knight pumps itself +2/+2 each time it blocks so it can be a formidable wall early on, and an unstoppable threat by midgame.

They start going for an alpha strike every turn after the third-fourth turn when they have some creatures down. Then, that turn, I drop a Rafiq, I swing with one of my guys to deal a MINIMUM of 10 damage, and sometimes as much as 16. All while leaving the rest of my threats behind to serve as blockers.

Suddenly, they absolutely have to kill me the next turn if they're going to alpha strike, which simply isn't possible since I only had to swing with one guy and have others to serve as blockers. And they end having to leave behind blockers. Winning from that point on is a cake walk.

I agree with you that Rafiq, is probably the weakest threat in the deck in terms of how much it costs. So if I find something better, I might cut it, or I might cut it for O. Ring. But it won't be for the reasons you mentioned. It's not win more, it's actually the opposite. And how would I walk into Daze with Rafiq. What aggro decks play Daze. Well maybe Merfolk but that's aggro control if anything, and it's actually a pretty easy matchup to beat. If I'm facing off against anything other than aggro including Merfolk, why would I be in such a hurry to resolve Rafiq that I would walk into a Daze?

aTn

02-02-2009, 09:31 AM

That, sir, is a lie or a cheat.

As per the previous poster, I found myself nodding until the humility comment. Maybe moat? As that opens up your ground game again. As for predator, I have been a fan of it over the last 2 or so years. I was relatively unfamiliar with it until I visited Japan and noticed how many t2 players were using it and baptizing all sorts of targets. If landed it is also problem pre-board for dreadstill so you can also add dreadnought to that list.

Hehe... that was obviously a brain fart...I meant to say Worship - which was kind of supposed to be written as a joke... since who the hell plays Worship in Landstil ? Anyhow, the joke's on me. That failed joke was inspired by my final MWS experience: a Goyf-Still player sided-in 4 Mongoose and 2 Worship against me... which prompted me (again) to stop testing on MWS.

Moat, although underplayed in my meta, would be the right call - i.e., you are right sir.

Omega

02-02-2009, 07:35 PM

the more i test Knight of the Reliquary, the more i love

OBviously, you can't abuse its ability properly in a traditional UGW. But that doesn't matter. You dont need to abuse it. The beater itself is extraordinary.

The only cons is that it makes the deck more graveyard dependant (as if it wasnt enough)

Robert

mackaber

02-03-2009, 04:31 AM

So why not try to abuse Knight of the Relinquary by porting the Wasteland Stifle package to UGW?

Captain Hammer

02-03-2009, 06:49 AM

You mean something like this...

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Daze
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Wasteland
3 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

I just replaced some threats for 4 Stifle. I think such a list could be very successful.

kikkofrio

02-03-2009, 08:14 AM

You mean something like this...

I just replaced some threats for 4 Stifle. I think such a list could be very successful.

I wonder, Why knight should be better of terrivore?

3duece

02-03-2009, 09:19 AM

I would say because his ability lets you fetch wastelands and your own tormod's crypt doesn't cut his p/t in half.

jazzykat

02-03-2009, 12:43 PM

I would say because his ability lets you fetch wastelands and your own tormod's crypt doesn't cut his p/t in half.

The fetch Wasteland is valid but cutting the p/t in half doesn't hold water with me.

KotR's p/t = 2/2 + x/x where x is the number of lands in your graveyard.
Terravore's p/t = X/X where X is the nuber of lands in all graveyards...you aren't terribly worse off with a vore when crypting your opponent than you are with the size of your KotR to begin with.

Terravore also has the keyword "Trample"= though shall not chump me with little tribal dorks or soldier tokens forever or die.

The biggest problem with Terravore is that he eats it to Relic of Progenitus.

KoTR also provides you a funky shuffle effect with top and counterbalance if you really need it.

My feeling is that you get a neato beater with a cool ability but you aren't getting the raw firepower of Terravore or the obnoxious efficiency of Tarmogoyf. I can't see it being worth it personally. I would rather have Dark Confidant, or Mystic Enforcer (hello Mr. Tombstalker...) over it.

Captain Hammer

02-03-2009, 01:08 PM

How is Terravore better?

He's only decent if your opponent plays tons of fetchlands too. If you're facing off agianst any combo deck or any of the X Stompy decks (Fairie Stompy, Dragon Stompy, Elf Stompy), goblins, fairies, or any random decks at all, Terravore is complete jank.

Stifle is justifiable because in additon to fetchlands, it works against combo and lots of random decks and situations.

Terravore only really works if your opponent plays tons of fetchlands, else, it comes into play as a 2/2 Trampler. He can't block and pump himself. If you're lucky, you'll get him to be a 3/3 or 4/4 Trampler by midgame.

Early game, Knight comes into play as a 4/4 and can block and pump itself to 6/6 asap. By midgame, you've already attacked with a 6/6 several times, where as Terravore finally got to be a 4/4 or 5/5 trampler just then.

How is that even comparable.

So how exactly is Terravore better, unless all you plan to see are matchups playing 8+ fetchlands? And even against decks with 8 fetchlands, your opponent won't usually have more than 2-3 fetchlands in their yard. So Terravore is still the same size as a Knight. You just traded away a really useful ability for trample.

And this isn't even counting how well Knight works with the deck.

a.) It fetches wastelands to cut your opponents off a color so that they have to play and use fetchlands, opening them up to Stifle.

b.) It depletes them of spare mana opening them up to Daze.

c.) It combos with Top, Top + CB, and even Brainstorm and Ponder.

d.) It blocks and pumps itself all while thinning your deck so you draw more threats.

jazzykat

02-03-2009, 01:23 PM

Knight provides an amusing mitigation of LD as well. I think that the Knight is a more unconditional threat although it may or may not be as large as a Terravore.
Also, let's face it most of the DTB play 6-8 fetches at this point, some with Wastelands, not to mention you will be stifling and wastelanding them as well so the opponents graveyard will factor into a P/T.

While in Thresh I think Knight is better than Terravore I wouldn't play either as I still prefer the somewhat outdated Enforcer in a UGw build.

Lastly, I don't think UGw (StP) is objectively as strong as the UGb(Confidant, and Thoughtseize) builds so the point for me is moot.

A quick response to your reasons about synergy:

a. Fetches wastes is cool providing you have enough spare lands yourself. It is a great option, however they are going to use Fetchlands regardless so the last part of your argument is valid but weak.

b. Well yes, this is assuming you have spare mana. This is obviously a reason why TA, Thrash and Dreadstill do so well.

c. The shuffle effect is indeed sweet.

d. Deckthinning...where have I heard that argument before and what was the conclusion...? In all seriousness yes, it will give you a bit of an edge in the late game but after you fetch out your wastelands what are you going to do....nuke your own lands to thin your deck?

It also give you threshhold quicker and makes sinkhole and opposing wastes quite a bit worse.

It is definitely a cool card.

sauce

02-03-2009, 01:55 PM

i think stifle/wasteland are bad in ugw because of counterbalance/top.
counterbalance/top usually want to come down asap, if you're wasting your mana/land drops on stopping opponents lands, you may as well play canadian thresh as it does it much better w/ dazes and spell snares to compliment the stifle/wastelands.

Saverus

02-03-2009, 05:03 PM

Hello, this is my first post in the Source (but i read it since 2 years).

i think stifle/wasteland are bad in ugw because of counterbalance/top.
counterbalance/top usually want to come down asap, if you're wasting your mana/land drops on stopping opponents lands, you may as well play canadian thresh as it does it much better w/ dazes and spell snares to compliment the stifle/wastelands.

We can play Daze, Stifle , Spell snare, Wasteland with the knight.

I agree that we must choose between CB and the Knight fetching remaining Wastelands in the library.

Why not try something like that ?

4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
4 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Spell Snare

It does not have the main drawback of Canadian Threshold and Team America : only 8 threats. It exchanges Fire-ice / Sinkhole for the Knight, and Lightning Bolt / Snuff out for StP.

from Cairo

02-03-2009, 05:05 PM

I don't think Knight or Terravore are good additions to Thresh, but ...

He's only decent if your opponent plays tons of fetchlands too. If you're facing off agianst any combo deck or any of the X Stompy decks (Fairie Stompy, Dragon Stompy, Elf Stompy), goblins, fairies, or any random decks at all, Terravore is complete jank.

Goblins, Thresh, Landstill, Dreadstill, Survival, Team America... One can make just as lop-sided an argument for decks that run 7+ Fetchlands. I haven't seen any Stompy decks being played in quite a while, atleast not compared to the decks in the DTB forum running a healthy amount of Fetches. TES is really the only competitive deck that comes to mind that doesn't run any, and even they run Gemstone Mine, and Lion's Eye Diamond so it's not out of the question that a land could find its way into the yard.

And even against decks with 8 fetchlands, your opponent won't usually have more than 2-3 fetchlands in their yard. So Terravore is still the same size as a Knight. You just traded away a really useful ability for trample.

One could definitely argue that on 6/6+ beater, Trample is "a really useful ability".

Also if running Wasteland it would also count the land(s) you've wasted to your opponent's grave, so it might be 3-4 instead of 2-3.

All that said I don't feel like either of these creatures are a step in the right direction, I feel like Knight is really over hyped, and its power level is situationally better/worse than Terravore depending on deck design. I really don't think Thresh's design really brings either of them to a power level worth playing.

rsaunder

02-03-2009, 05:15 PM

What's the point of arguing knight v. terravore again? Last time I checked terravore didn't see any playtime in UGw thresh so comparing them is kinda pointless

georgjorge

02-03-2009, 05:19 PM

I like Knight in this deck. However, you can very well play Knight without having to change into LD Thresh with Stifle + Waste, just for his size. If you don't play four Wastes, I think the best thing is to put in one or maybe two utility lands that aren't dead when you draw them, like Nantuko Monastery (might even keep your opponent from dropping Standstill) or Maze of Ith (Dreadnought, 'Stalker etc). Knight gets better after sideboarding when you can put in a singleton Tabernacle against Goblins or other tribal stuff (can't think of other useful sideboard lands right now...Sheltered Valley against Burn :really: ?).

Captain Hammer

02-03-2009, 06:14 PM

Yeah, I don't know why people compare Knight to Terravore either. Knight is useful for it's utility as well as it's size (and abililty to block and pump itself up permanently). It also helps you get threshold much faster (the same speed as mental note did), so that's something too.

If you're unsure of the card, try playing with it first and let me know if you honestly don't change your mind. I would be surprised.

Why not try something like this?
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
4 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Spell Snare

It does not have the main drawback of Canadian Threshold and Team America : only 8 threats. It exchanges Fire-ice / Sinkhole for the Knight, and Lightning Bolt / Snuff out for StP.

I like it, it's very clean and simple. Yeah CB + Top wasn't really pulling it's weight for me anyways.

I'm going to play your build. But because like I said earlier, I find myself wanting more threats in my meta.

I'm going to try...

-2 Spell Snare
+2 Mystic Enforcer

mackaber

02-03-2009, 06:24 PM

Yeah, I don't know why people compare Knight to Terravore either. Knight is useful for it's utility as well as it's size (and abililty to block and pump itself up permanently). It also helps you get threshold much faster (the same speed as mental note did), so that's something too.

If you're unsure of the card, try playing with it first and let me know if you honestly don't change your mind. I would be surprised.

I like it, it's very clean and simple. Yeah CB + Top wasn't really pulling it's weight for me anyways.

I'm going to play your build. But because like I said earlier, I find myself wanting more threats in my meta.

I'm going to try...

-2 Spell Snare
+2 Mystic Enforcer

I'd definetly pass on he enforcer in that list but instead I'd cut 1 or 2 lands and one of the knights for either cantrips or counterspells/O-Rings but otherwise I really like the above list. Come to think of it cutting Spel Snares seems really bad since they can stop the menace that is CB.

Aggro_zombies

02-03-2009, 11:10 PM

Am I the only one here who realizes that KoR's ability is preceded by the tap symbol? People who are saying that Knight is good because he has an ability and because he's big don't seem to realize that making use of one precludes making use of the other.

If you keep him open, you've essentially got a big wall with a marginally useful ability.

If you swing with it you can't use the ability at all, so you're playing with a big three mana guy that's like Terravore, except worse.

If you grow it for a few turns and then start swinging with it, why the fuck are you running it over Quirion Dryad, which a) is cheaper, b) is less color intensive, c) doesn't require you to modify the deck at all to accommodate him (because he triggers off your cantrips and counters, which you'd play anyway), e) can get bigger faster, and without having to sit on the bench for a few turns, and f) doesn't require you to sit around doing stupid shit when you should be winning? Let's face it: in the time it would take you to get Knight up to a useful size and swinging into the red zone, Tarmogoyf and Enforcer will have already ended the game.

KoR is Danger of Cool Things. This deck will never be as good at the tempo game as Thrash or Black Threshold is simply because it doesn't have reach or discard and a draw engine. The appeal of using white in the first place was the ability to err on the side of control, thereby gaining an edge in matches like the mirror where you could outmaneuver the other guy. If that's the case, why are we adding a guy that taps to Wasteland both players? And why are we adding Stifle to a deck that's slower than the aforementioned tempo-oriented Threshold builds?

I really don't get it.

Omega

02-03-2009, 11:25 PM

Captain Hammer

02-03-2009, 11:26 PM

Assuming that you play him very early on, you may have to wait one turn to attack with im. But that ONE single turn that you leave him up as defense, you prevent your opponent from attacking, you attack your opponent's manabase and screw them out of a color, you pump him up and you get to threshold a lot faster. All that in just one turn. After just that ONE turn, he's already a 6/6 or 7/7 way bigger than Dryad was evevr going to get until atleast four turns later.

Then you can swing with him all you want as a 6/6 or 7/7. Or if your opponent is manascrewed and you have lots of lands you can simply lock him out of the game completely (he's flexible like that) and then swing with him for the win.

What's so hard to get?

He's a bigger goyf that if he comes out early game has to wait one turn longer to attack but during that turn DISRUPTS your opponent's color base, prevents your opponent from attacking, builds up threshold, pumps itself, and shuffles your library for Brainstorm/Ponder.

If he comes out at any other time than the very early game, you don't even need to wait that one turn, you can just start swinging with him right away.

Jaiminho

02-03-2009, 11:36 PM

TEach us something we dont know. Seriously, everyone know it has a tap symbol.

You can attack, or you can use its ability.

There, its settled.

If it attacks, its a Terravore, but worse. True true. Terravore is stronger. But terravore costs double green and 4 total. Knight costs W, G for a total of 3. There is a big difference here. Between 3 and 4, there is a huge difference.
But i am not arguing Terravore would be worse than knight in UGW. I havent tested it.

If you dont attack KOR is actually better than Terravore. (and trust me, that happens alot). You dont always attack with goyfs, and mongoose. Right? The opponent might have a blocker, then opponent might have more creatures than you. There are plenty reasons why you might not attack. And this is when KOR ability comes in handy. Its a free shuffle library ability. It can make your deck thiner (by removing lands). IF you have a sensei's in play, its the real combo. Terravore can't do that. PLUS, the more you wait, the bigger KOR grows! And when the board turns into your advantage (because you drew into a removal or you played a goyf or a creature) you can then proceed to the beating! KOR probably grew to a point where it can outstand every blockers. This is giving KOR an edge over Terravore in my opinion.

I can think of two reasons why Dryad is worse than KOR
1- 2cc : It doesn't dodge CB as easily
2- It requires a huge investment. Casting spells to boost it. It is an extremely poor topdeck. 2 for a 1/1 in the late game is bad, especially when Goyfs are like 5/6.

Terravore costs 3 and it would suck everyone's balls in this deck. Also, Knight seems horrible against board control since it must overextend your mana base (read: draw less lands because you are taking the out of your deck) in order to make it big and then, but only then, take life away from your opponent. Nonetheless, Knight seems good enough against aggro -- not offensive at all, though, at least for 3-4 turns.

Aggro_zombies pretty said it right in the last big paragraph. I'd rather splash red or play Rhox War Monk to beat aggro more consistently than play a suboptimal dude that won't help against some uncomfortable/unfavorable/whatever matches like Rock and Landstill.

Captain Hammer

02-03-2009, 11:45 PM

Rhox War Monk sucks. Please don't compare him to this. I played both with and against Rhox. He's passable against aggro. But Knight is a lot better against aggro than Rhox. A 3/4 lifelinking wall can't compete with a 4/4 or 5/5 that gets +2/+2 every time he blocks. And he's actually quite excellent against Rock and Landstill. I don't know where you got the idea that he's isn't good agianst these matchups. Just dont overextend against these matchups and he's a godsend. Getting wastelands to blow up manlands or cutting Rock off of a color is tech. Having 4 guys that are a lot bigger than Goyf by the midgame is tech.

As for Spell Snare, it's always been hit and miss for me. Sometimes it's fantastic (stopping CB, Counterspell and Edict). But often, it's not able to counter the stuff I want it to counter (StP, FoW etc).

A card that I had played off and on was Divert. Now there's a powerful card. It actually counters the cards that I want to counter (StP, FoW and such along with stuff like Edict and Counterspell). It works esp well with the increased threat density and the increased mana disruption package. I'm going to play it instead of Spell Snare actually. I think it will prove worth inclusion, but I'll say for sure later.

Another card I always wanted to test was Disrupt. It's basically a 1cc Daze that also draws you a card. But I don't think I'll get around to testing it anytime soon.

Aggro_zombies

02-04-2009, 12:23 AM

You can attack, or you can use its ability.

There, it's settled.
Seems pretty bad, broski, considering how you want to win quickly when you're ahead.

And when the board turns into your advantage (because you drew into a removal or you played a goyf or a creature) you can then proceed to the beating! KOR probably grew to a point where it can outstand every blockers. This is giving KOR an edge over Terravore in my opinion.

KOR probably grew to a point where it can outstand every blockers.

blockers.
No trample lol wut. Your 6/6 is really useful when he's a really bad The Abyss.

Then you can swing with him all you want as a 6/6 or 7/7. Or if your opponent is manascrewed and you have lots of lands you can simply lock him out of the game completely (he's flexible like that) and then swing with him for the win.
So you blow up all your color producing lands to find the 4 Wasteland that will let you "lock your opponent out of the game"? That sword cuts both ways, broski. Also, if we're talking locks, this is nowhere near as good as Life from the Loam plus Wasteland.

If he comes out at any other time than the very early game, you don't even need to wait that one turn, you can just start swinging with him right away.
...which isn't a justification at all, because that's true for every creature, especially Terravore - which, by the way, will be larger at this point anyway. But that's a moot point, since Terravore is unplayable in this deck anyway, and KoR is a worse Terravore.

I realize at this point that nothing I say, logical or otherwise, could get you to give up your fixation on a creature that doesn't belong in this deck. However, a part of me still feels compelled to rebut your arguments because you're wrong (in b4 the last refuge of people who are wrong, namely "Well, then how about YOU play him and you'll see how good he is!").

If you're playing this guy as a solution to aggro, YOU'RE PLAYING THE WRONG FUCKING THRESHOLD SPLASH. Red has a much better aggro matchup (due to its sweepers) and doesn't need to run suboptimal guys to do it. "But I wanna play white!" is no excuse to run a guy in a deck he doesn't belong in.

If you're playing this guy to screw the opponent on tempo, YOU'RE PLAYING THE WRONG FUCKING THRESHOLD SPLASH. Black has discard and Bob in addition to Wasteland and Stifle, making it infinitely better at hosing an opponent than this thing. Sure, it might not have as many big guys, but it doesn't need them when it's drawing two cards per turn and the opponent can't do anything due to lack of mana.

If you're playing this guy as a disruptor against control, YOU'RE PLAYING AN INCOMPETENT FUCKING CONTROL PLAYER. This guy Wastelands both players when you use its ability. If the control player can't punish you for that with Crucible, Deed, EE, Swords, Edict, Smother, Stifle, or whatever else they run, he needs to clock more time with his deck. If the control player doesn't even know how to play around Wasteland effects, he's just plain bad. That's also ignoring the fact that this guy is a turn slower than Standstill and won't start swinging until turn five at the earliest, making it as slow as Enforcer, except without the upside of evasion and being harder to kill with EE.

In short, this guy has a nifty ability that's not actually that great when you think about it. You have a maximum of four turns of mana disruption, and if you use them you're essentially fogging your big guy for four turns, which kinda defeats the purpose of having a big guy in the first place.

He's not really great as a wall against aggro because they'll either swarm you or evade (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=106642) you (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=129534).

Control tends to run a lot of a certain class of spells colloquially known as "removal." Removing your big guy after you've just Wastelanded yourself once or twice seems pretty sweet to me, especially since I, as the control player, should have a way around land destruction effects (or at the very least I'll have more lands than you).

He does jack shit against combo.

Three strikes, broski.

tl;dr he's bad in this deck.

Jak

02-04-2009, 12:26 AM

No, like AZ said, is Knight good at all or even better than something like Terravore or Dryad? You can't abuse the Crop Rotation on a stick (let's face it, getting a Wasteland is weak and your list runs 19 lands...) and it weakens the mana base (this isn't Tempo Thresh). Are you running it just to have a big threat outside of Goyf? Play Mystic Enforcer. Terravore will even be bigger than Knight anyway.

Rhox War Monk is actually amazing against aggro. Isn't this why you are running more creatures, to have a better aggro MU? Then they should be compared. Rhox War Monk is out of burn range with an ass of 4, gains 3 life every time he hits or blocks, and costs 3. How does that suck against aggro?

Captain Hammer

02-04-2009, 12:47 AM

AZ, I'm playing him because he's damn good, that's why.

I'll say the same thing as people gave back when a few thresh players insisted that Werebear was better than Tarmogoyf before they had a chance to test it.

Stop theorizing so much and just test the freaking card (with stifle and wasteland) and then get back to me.

He's actually bigger and better than Tarmogoyf. :eek: :eek:

Yes, I went there.

90% of the time that he came into play, he came into play bigger than Tarmogoyf would've been if I played Goyf at that same time. And guess what, even without using his ability once, he just keeps getting bigger as the game goes on at the same or a slightly faster speed than Goyf.

With very few exceptions, Knight was always the biggest threat on the board, even a board with Tarmogoyf and Mystic Enforcer in play (I didn't find it in my heart to cut Enforcer so I kept him in the deck.)

But that's not the key part.

The key part is, the deck was stronger than it had ever been before, seriously. He won several games all by himself without even having to attack once.

This is what justifies the higher casting cost than Tarmogoyf. His absolutely broken ability to grab you Wasteland after Wasteland and lock your opponent out of mana completely while you recover quickly thanks to the cantrips.

There was a huge chunk of games, close to a third of the games where I managed to cripple my opponent's manabase and halt his gameplan completely as soon as I resolved him. Thresh is designed to function on 1-2 lands. Many decks aren't. And anytime you run into one of those decks (and yes, that included a rock variant), he wins you the game by himself by locking your opponent out completely.

It honestly feels like I'm playing a Doran Suicide when I play this guy. That deck rocked because it played 12 powerful land destruction spells (4 Wasteland, 4 Sinkhole, 4 Vindicate). This deck plays the same amount of LD, or practically it plays a lot more LD (4 Wasteland, 4 Stifle, 4 Knight - which if one resolves effectively equals you drawing all 4 Wasteland if you want to pursue the LD strategy).

When Tarmogoyf was first spoiled, several people here insisted that Werebear was better, until they got around to testing the card that is. This card is more subtle than Tarmogoyf. But if you take the time to test a build, any build with 3-4 wastelands for a total of 19-20 lands (and probably 4 Stifle), you will come back with a big smile on your face. That's a promise.

If you're curious, this was my manabase...

1 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
3 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland

If I were to make any changes to the manabase now, I would probably cut the Plains for the last Windswept Heath as I never once liked it when I drew the basic plains. Other than that, I highly recommend going with a similar configuration.

Shugyosha

02-04-2009, 06:28 AM

1 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
3 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland

As someone already said. This is a terrible manabase for UGw Balanced Threshold. 6 lands that force you to automulligan a 1 land hand is bad. 6 non-:u: lands that keep you from playing Counterbalance early on a reliable basis is even more terrible.
I don't care how good you think Knight is. If you like him play him but don't build decks that pretend to be tempo+control Threshold with Knight as "fast clock". The deck is going all over the place and the mana base is only just the beginning.

mackaber

02-04-2009, 06:58 AM

Lol what's up with all this thickheaded refusal of innovation. You know if we'd always listen to people who don't want to test new cards we'd stil be hanging with werebear and Thresh would be tier 3 at best.
Best way to show em is go out and play. I still remember while people where staunchly defending their Werebears on the Source I won myself 20 Duals in San Diego and had a nice little laugh at all the knuckleheads out there.
All those testing don't let other's flaming get to you, they might end up on your side. I remember Adan flaming me when I suggested O-Ring for the first time and now he's flaming people who don't play it...

aTn

02-04-2009, 08:16 AM

I still remember while people where staunchly defending their Werebears on the Source I won myself 20 Duals in San Diego and had a nice little laugh at all the knuckleheads out there.

Are you sure of that; I think it was a minority who were against Werebear. If I recall, Bardo had almost all of us convinced that Goyf would answer Threshold's prayers about three weeks before the set was out. He even showed sample games to convince us that Werebear could go back on the shelf.

The arguments given against the inclusion of Knight in UGW-Threshold (with CB) are pretty solid - the proposed manabase sucks (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=316251&postcount=1789), i.e. there's a good chance you won't get your UU for an early CB and you might even get screwed out of U early game (thus slowing down the cantripping and Dazing early game). Without Wasteland, maybe, with Wasteland, no thanks. My 2 cents...

MSC

02-04-2009, 08:31 AM

Hmm, not that I think the Knight is that good, but what about using him as a Mini-Toolbox?

Just adding 2 Wastelands to the normal 16-Land base as a Weapon vs. Recursion Lands like Academy Ruins or to punish a weak Manabase. Then you may consider runing 1-2 Tabernacle as Sideboard Option against Swarm Decks.

This way, it may be run, but to push Full Stifle/Waste in Control-Thresh is not the way, I think...

Saverus

02-04-2009, 08:52 AM

W does not automatically means control.

There are 2 ways to use the knight in UGW Threshold :
- in a classic CB deck : the idea needs a lot of work with utility lands (like Tabernacle) to prove its strength
- in a tempo deck without CB like Canadian Threshold and Team America : no problem for color screw because no need for UU

The Knight may be very good in one type of deck and bad in another (some will say in the two :tongue:).

I don't think the Knight is a must play card, but i think if offers a new and interesting direction to build a UGW threshold deck. This direction will need some work, the list i brought is a draft, but it has a good potential.

Test it in a tempo deck and you will be surprised.

Omega

02-04-2009, 09:03 AM

my bad about terravore

Relic of progenitus kills terravore. KOR can still survive to it

I am not saying that KOR will make it to UGW, but im definately testing it. Its fairly decent blocker. The same way tarmogoyf is a faily blocker. Neither has evasion (so stop using this excuse).
3 for 4/4 is fairly decent (assuming 2 fetchland in graveyard)

You dont have to abuse its ability to make it good. Just pointing out how his ability can actually break stall during game. Whether by shuffling library to abuse sensei, to abuse bs, ponder, or simply boosting it +2/2 everytime you use its ability (assuming you sac a land to get a fetchland)

Im definately not adding suboptimal lands (wasteland or any other utility) just to make the crop rotation cool. Im keeping the traditional ugw mana base.

Robert

Captain Hammer

02-04-2009, 10:04 AM

Not to mention building threshold or mana screwing your opponent out of the game with 4 Wastelands. Many decks including the rock and landstill cannot function effectively at 2 land. Knight ensures that they are stuck at 0-1 land for roughly 8-10 turns. Meanwhile my build has no problem using cantrips and the 20 land base to find as many lands as it needs to stay at 2-3 that whole time and continue to lay down threats. This has already won me more games than I can count.

Wasteland + Stifle works beautifully in the deck. It's a mistake not to play it.

lands that keep you from playing Counterbalance early on a reliable basis is even more terrible.

I'm not playing counterbalance genius. I already mentioned that it wasn't pulling it's weight. And once it got the boot BB became completely unneccesary for the deck. Having a little bit of resiliency to nonbasic hate however is never a bad thing. The only reason decks play 16-17 blue sources is because they want BB for counterbalance and counterspell. This build plays neither.

Here you go...

1 Island
1 Forest
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
4 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Utility/Spell Snare (I am playing 3 Spell Snare and using the remaining slot for Divert. If you really want, you can cut a Knight or maybe even a Daze to make room for more utility. But I personally am 100% pleased playing the full 4 Daze and 4 Knight)

You only need 14 blue producing lands in a deck to reliably hope to see one each game. That had been established a while ago.

And I specifically stated in my post that I recommend cutting the Plains for a Windswept Heath. So that's 15 blue producers. If you think it's really a terrible idea to leave yourself access to a single basic forest and basic island in a meta filled with nonbasic hate, you really need to play more.

Omega

02-04-2009, 10:23 AM

CB + STP are two main reasons to play UGW. Cutting one (CB in your case) is a bad idea.

On its own, CB can win so many game that its ridiculous to even think about not playing it when you can and when your strategy can support it

Robert

Captain Hammer

02-04-2009, 10:30 AM

Proportionally, Knight wastelock ability by itself won me a large percentage of games than CB+Top did! This isn't even factoring in it's beatdown ability. Try it out yourself if you don't believe me.

Way back, I had CB+Top in the Knight build if you recall. It just wasn't good enough. Games end with your opponents playing a lot less cards out than before thanks to repeated Wastelands.

The new build is by design more aggressive, and on a much lower curve now. It plays out better this way.

Ch@os

02-04-2009, 10:45 AM

Proportionally, Knight wastelock ability by itself won me a large percentage of games than CB+Top did!

Omg, are you serious?

e:\ Because a "wasteland lock" with Knight sounds sooo crappy.

Captain Hammer

02-04-2009, 10:50 AM

I don't care how it sounds.

Yes, atleast 1/3rd of the wins came off of Knight + Wastelock to manascrew the opponent. You can't even hope to get the CB+Top lock down that often.

When you already blow up stuff with Stifle and your curve averages 1.2cc and you play 8 cantrips, keeping any opponent with a curve of 2cc or higher down to just one land (or no lands) and making most of their hand into dead cards becomes very very worthwhile.

I'm playing more tonight, so I'll post more thoughts tonight or if it's late, tom morning.

Henrik

02-04-2009, 11:02 AM

Way back, I had CB+Top in the Knight build if you recall. It just wasn't good enough. Games end with your opponents playing a lot less cards out than before thanks to repeated Wastelands.

Whut?!!!
You are really funny, since "way back" was yesterday. On page 89, someone else suggests that you skip the CB/top for spell snares, and you go "splendid, i'll try that mate".

How much time have you really had to tests all these lists thrown around?

Captain Hammer

02-04-2009, 11:06 AM

The "way back" was referring to my thread from TEN DAYS AGO (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12593), in which I was playing CB + Top along side Knight.

I started siding it out for Diverts and other utility back during thursday night. Eventually, I gave up on CB + Top and found myself leaving it out of the mainbuild entirely. Just didn't feel like bringing it up here and starting another argument since everyone here has such a hard on for CB + Top, which always felt lukewarm at best in the deck.

Since someone else suggested getting rid of CB + Top and wasn't instantly flamed for doing so, I figured I would jump in and share my support of the cutting the card as well.

Omega

02-04-2009, 11:16 AM

Against most decks of legacy, CB/top ends the game.

Mana denial strategy can always fail. When i playtested against TA, 2 stifle and 2 wasteland and i still managed somehow to win that game. Mana denial can't prevent lucky top deck from opponents.

CB/top can completely counter every spell opponent attempt to play.

Captain Hammer

02-04-2009, 11:22 AM

I wasn't happy with CB + Top. But you know what. Play CB if you want. CB + Top is not really relevent. I'm not happy with 4 Spell Snare in it's place either. Had far better luck with Divert. But it's not relevent. And it's not relevent whether you opt to include any basics in the deck or not either.

I just want others players to test Stifle + Wasteland + Knight so that they can see what I'm seeing, which is that this approach is really really strong. I don't much care what the rest of the build looks like.

Henrik

02-04-2009, 11:29 AM

Ok Mr. Hammer, whatever you say.

When you say that CB/top is lukewarm in "the" deck, do you refer to your own build, or UGw thresh in general? If the second, that is a rather funny statement, I don't care how "anti-inovational" you want to call me.

This whole discussion reminds me a lot of the the one held in this very thread 3 months or so ago, when Rafiq was spoiled and about to become legal. He was said to be "the" tech by some and that enforcer would never need to see play again. How many top8s have been made by a UGw thresh with Rafiq since? Not one.

Arsenal

02-04-2009, 11:32 AM

Although I completely agree with you, there was 1 top8 w/ Rafiq in UGW Thresh: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=21816.

Captain Hammer

02-04-2009, 11:32 AM

And I was one of the people who said that Mystic Enforcer absolutely belongs in the deck and should never get the boot.

Plenty of people opposed replacing Werebear with Goyf as well.

The majority of people opposed CB + Top initially. CB + Top was proposed as soon as Coldsnap was spoiled. Yet it took a full year and a half after coldsnap was printed before CB+Top started becoming mainstream.

Plenty of people opposed Oblivion Ring. I could go on and on.

Practically every single new card that eventually made it into the deck, many people in this very thread opposed playing.

All that proves is that people are always opposed to trying out new ideas and new cards in the deck. The very fact that Coldsnap was out for a full year and a half before CB + Top became mainstream proves this.

What all this proves is that plenty of people talk about how a card or strategy doesn't work in the deck without ever having tested it themselves.

Henrik

02-04-2009, 11:35 AM

Although I completely agree with you, there was 1 top8 w/ Rafiq in UGW Thresh: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=21816.

Hehe, missed that one. I hope my reasoning is still valid ;)

jazzykat

02-04-2009, 11:40 AM

Regarding Knight/Waste Lock did you try a game vs. UR dreadstill or a thresh deck with basics in it?

Captain Hammer

02-04-2009, 11:45 AM

No to UR Dreadstill. Yes to Thresh.

And Knight was fantastic there. It was on Saturday. One game in particular that I recall came to a Goyf standstill (each of us had a 4/5 goyf on the board) until I managed to resolve Knight which was already a 7/7 when it came on the board. Won the game singlehandedly.

You're not going to go for Wastelock against decks with a low curve. You use it against decks that either...

a.) Already had their mana development hindered by stifle (and subsequently missed a land drop).

b.) Missed a land drop and don't have many lands on the board.

c.) Play several 3cc and/or 4cc cards.

Many games, you use Knight as a giant beatstick (almost always bigger than goyf) and sometimes, you use it to block/deter attacks and then pump itself.

Arsenal

02-04-2009, 11:49 AM

In that situation, couldn't an Enforcer been just as effective at breaking the Goyf stalemate?

aTn

02-04-2009, 11:55 AM

W does not automatically means control.
- in a tempo deck without CB like Canadian Threshold and Team America : no problem for color screw because no need for UU

I don't think a UGW-Tempo-Threshold is possible. I've played the deck long enough (pre and post Goyf) to be convinced that its clock is wayyyy to slow to play tempo.

It doesn't have the reach to play tempo; to be more precise, it doesn't play burn like Canadian Threshold, huge beaters that come fast in the game (Tombstalker in TA) and it plays Sword to Plowshares, which is arguably the best removal in the format, but tends to slow things down via opponent life-gain. In short, UGW-Threshold's clock would be way too slow to make it an efficient tempo deck.

Proportionally, Knight wastelock ability by itself won me a large percentage of games than CB+Top did!

You lost me there... I'd like to know your testing gauntlet to try to make sense of that.

Captain Hammer

02-04-2009, 11:55 AM

Knight is a huge beater that comes down fast. It's bigger than Tombstalker the majority of the time. That's my point actually. With Knight, UGW-Tempo-Thresh works.

In that situation, couldn't an Enforcer been just as effective at breaking the Goyf stalemate?

He actually managed to resolve an Enforcer I think ~2-3 turns after I played my Knight, but had to use it chump block the Knight so that he could live an extra turn.

I actually had a FoW handy but there was no reason for me to stop Enforcer as it was too little, too late and I wanted the FoW if he tried to play another StP. My Enforcer got StPed earlier (I think it was the same game, but I might be thinking of another match.) Either way, I never got to use an Enforcer that game. As my thread above indicates, I played with Enforcer in the deck, and I still often play with Enforcer alongside Knight.

It supplements the aggressive strategy of this build well.

That game, Knight functioned as a 3cc Enforcer #3-6.

Knight often does work as a 3cc Enfocerer to break Goyf stalemates. But my point is, the card has many functions. Breaking Goyf stalemates and subbing in for Enforcer are just one of them.

You know what guys. I'm tired of belaboring this. Play whatever build you want.

Play or don't play Stifle + Wasteland + Knight. Don't really care anymore. It took people an year+ to start accepting Counterbalance + Top as worthwhile. I'm confident that it'll happen with Knight too eventually.

Cenarius

02-04-2009, 05:42 PM

This is far more powerful against much more decks:

Resolved Back to Basics
Resolved Counterbalance
Resolved Sensei's Divining Top

With having that in play, a simple nimble mongoose can seal you the deal.

Stifle + wasteland will only effect your opponent once. It just cannot compete with the cardadvantage Counterbalance creates. I bet that I will win far more games with CB/Top in play (or with Back to Basics) than a "recurring" double-Wasteland.
Although KoR is pretty big, Mystic Enforcer is big enough too. It is awesome against Goyfstandstills, TA and more black removal.
It just seems to me by the way you argument that you do not test properly enough to draw conclusions. As Mtgthesource is pretty conservative, you must first get results in order to convince people to play your list. Discuss your deck with people you test against (etc.), tweek the list by doing that to get a more stable list.

Captain Hammer

02-04-2009, 06:46 PM

Omega

02-04-2009, 07:09 PM

Actually, to clarify things...

CB and SDT both works perfection on their own. Combined together, they are THE combo.
SDT is pretty good alone, probably better than a single CB. Cards selection usually win the game on the long run

CB : Blind reveal is enough to make your opponent slow down. You also have cantrips if you dont have SDT in play

"How many games have you won by swinging with Counterbalance "
False quesiton much? LOL?
CB actually makes me win a lot of game. Whether random blind reveal, or actual SDT/Cantrip. Obviously, CB doesn't attack.

Robert

Shugyosha

02-04-2009, 07:28 PM

Back to Basics is very hard to support well given our manabase.

Getting two cards into play (both CB + Top) would be more disruptive than Knight.

But you're talking about a two card combo here.

Knight is a one card combo, that also happens to a beatstick/threat. A beatstick that's often just as big as Mystic Enforcer but at a cheaper cc. How many games have you won by swinging with Counterbalance or Back to Basics.

Have you actually played the current UGw List with CB+Top+BtB? If it were a problem to put CB or Top into play or if it were a problem to support BtB, people wouldn't pilot this list into Top8 more consistantly than most other decks (although not all play BtB).

Again, play Knight as you like but don't try to support him with shady arguments like: Goyfs big brother, better than CB+Top, "recurring" Wastelands (which they are not!) and concepts like white Tempo Thresh.

Hitman82

02-04-2009, 10:52 PM

I think the Knight is a fine card but doesn't shore up the kind of match-ups UGw Threshold has problems with.

If you cut Counterbalance/Sensei's Diving Top and/or Spell Snare then your TES, Burn, GoyfSligh, AggroLoam and Threshold mirrors get weaker. You're still vulnerable to Swords but lose the insane card and tempo advantages of playing these cards.

I think if a change is needed in the archetype, it would be to shore up match-ups like Landstill or Intuition-based archetypes that can just beat you with inevitability. Oblivion Ring and Trygon Predator have gone a long way to improve those matches.

I don't agree that you can play a tempo role because your argument revolves around you resolving a three casting cost spell. Thrash is able to play the tempo role because of the cheap and efficient nature of every spell it plays. I think you're sacrificing the strengths of the deck to try to achieve something you won't be able to do better than other tempo-focused decks.

I'm not bashing the Knight or anyone who wants to play it. I just don't think that's the direction UGw Threshold needs to go in to improve.

Captain Hammer

02-04-2009, 11:34 PM

You're welcome to disagree. That's fine.

Let's just drop the topic.

I don't feel like debating the Knight any more. I will continue to play it because I've personally not found what you said to be the case.

Sage

02-05-2009, 10:23 AM

I have one question Hammer...

How does your build fare against Merfolk?

My reason for asking is that I've been having a hard time beating Merfolk with any of the Thresh builds and even Dreadstill. I think that Merfolk is deffinitely a DTB (see current T8 results).

Personally, I think that KoR is a good card. But, my issue with it (no testing to back this up) is that it seems to me that you will mana screw yourself by fetching wastlands unless you run more colored lands in general to support it (especially in a three color deck).

On the subject of CB/top, I also personally think that CB/top isn't that great at the moment for the following reasons;

-Everyone is playing arround it
-It is hard to assemble the combo
(although I agree that top is amazing by itself)
-It slows the game down considerably (more draws)

I do have personal experience playing without CB/top in Threshold. I placed 25 at The Source tournament with Ugr Swan Thresh. I ran 4 Counterspell and 3 Spell Snare in the CB/top spots and was very happy with it all day. I countered Tombstalker a couple times and in fact had my Counterspells Extirpated twice that day. I agree with most that CB/top is the nuts in some matches, winning games all by itself, but I personally am not huge fan of the combo, especially right now.

Jaiminho

02-05-2009, 11:14 AM

On the subject of CB/top, I also personally think that CB/top isn't that great at the moment for the following reasons;

-Everyone is playing arround it
-It is hard to assemble the combo
(although I agree that top is amazing by itself)
-It slows the game down considerably (more draws)

People playing around it means they aren't playing optimally, which is awsome for you.

Assembling the combo is piece of cake, specially because the combo requires only Counterbalance, since Top is an improvement, but not a necessity. With 8 Brainstorms+Ponders, Counterbalance will be effective almost all the time.

As long as you can imprint a mid/late game aggressivity, after taking control of the game, you shouldn't be getting ties. Countertop does very little if you can't deal with what your opponent plays while dodging it or before it becomes online. With O-Ring (1-2), STP (4), EE (0-2) and a Huge Flying Thing (1), you shouldn't have problems with that.

Captain Hammer

02-05-2009, 01:37 PM

I have one question Hammer...

How does your build fare against Merfolk?

I actually did play Merfolk about five days ago. I don't really remember the game much. I won twice, lost once. I do think KOR helped but I used it primarily as a large self pumping blocker and beatstick rather than to disrupt the manabase. That's really all I can say about the matchup.

sauce

02-05-2009, 02:32 PM

I actually did play Merfolk about five days ago. I don't really remember the game much. I won twice, lost once. I do think KOR helped but I used it primarily as a large self pumping blocker and beatstick rather than to disrupt the manabase. That's really all I can say about the matchup.

if they get a lord of atlantis out, all your blockers are non blockers.
the aether vial + standstill merfolk build has a really good matchup against ugw thresh.

Sage

02-05-2009, 03:11 PM

I've noticed when playing against Merfolk that the aggro/control decks I've been playing have done quite poorly against it for two reasons;

1-If Aether Vial resolves - that's probably game
(EE just gets Stifled)
2-If Lord of Atlantis resolves - that's probably game

I just think that Merfolk is a really good metagame deck right now because it has a good matchup against most of the other aggro control decks. From what I've read, it's only bad matchup is goblins. I am starting to wonder if the white Threshold splash is the best one for the metta at the moment. Red just gives you soooooo many more options and answers to aggro. But, dropping StP makes your TA/Dreadstill/Eva green matchups worse. So, I guess you can't have your cake and eat it too unless you want to run 4 colors and get owned by moon effects and the like.

sauce

02-05-2009, 03:26 PM

godryk

02-05-2009, 04:47 PM

The Merfolks matchup has been a concern for me due to its growing popularity in our metagame. I've tested it a bit with a pretty standard list and got some opinions.

Even though it's never going to turn into a very possitive one, I've found EE to be pretty useful in this matchup, as it's much better than other cards such as Oblivion Ring, just because it can get you some nice card advantage by blowing X+1 creatures. Yeah, it can get stifled, well, that's what counters/CB are for, as it's usual for them to make you save counters thanks to their f***ing Vials. I have found also that using EE on Vial is a waste of resources most of time. Vial usually leads to an early counterwar. I you don't win that counterwar you can try to get rid of it soon, but as far as the game goes, Vial gets worse, they don't have Ringleader or Siege-Gang, if it goes through, then start worrying about what's appearing. If you can't get rid of it soon, then your next objective is Lord of Atlantis.

Another great card, coming form the sideboard, is Pithing Needle, as shutting Mutavault in the midagame can give you an edge.

Having more than a pair of threats is also nice, as you can get some time if they don't go mad with Lords.

To sum up, we can't deny it's a bad matchup, but I think that with some tight play against non-MD Relic lists you can get some games.

Maybe 4c can get a better game, I haven't tested it, but their mana denial plan in going to hurt, and I'm not sure that it's that necessary against many other relevant matchups.

Shugyosha

02-05-2009, 07:56 PM

If you have problems with Merfolk and non-red aggro in general: We have Path to Exile now.
4 Stop main and 3 PtE SB make the aggro matchup not that painful anymore.

Omega

02-06-2009, 10:20 PM

Merfolk and Elves decks are problematic. I think they are by far superior to Goblin against UGW. They have Champions that can end the game on their own (unblockable). Merfolk especially runs Countermagic.

I managed to get some KOR and PTE foil today. They costed me a fortune

Robert

Cenarius

02-07-2009, 11:39 AM

I was thinking about this list:

Creatures (10):
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Nimble Mongoose
2 Trygon Predator
1 Mystic Enforcer (maybe -1 Enforcer, +1 Nimble Mongoose)

Cb/top (7):
4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Counters (8):
4 Force of Will
4 Daze

Cantrips (8):
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

Toolbox (5:)
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Back to Basics
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Pithing Needle

Removal (5):
4 Swords to plowshares
(1 Oblivion ring)

Lands (18):

4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 plains
1 forest

Sideboard contains pyroblast's and pyroclam.
However I'm not sure whether playing Wooded Foothills is such a good idea. Heath doesnt fetch Volcanic Island, which is bad postboard. However you do need a fetch that can fetch to forest, plains, tundra and tropical island preboard.
I´m also not content with the fact that this lists plays only 10 creatures, however I can´t get more space.
I think UGW(r) Threshold needs Back to Basics since it really helps your bad matchup´s. So i´m sure I want to play that card.
When looking at other UGW(r) decks on Deckcheck, several lists play Lightning bolt´s. I´m not sure whether that is as good as it looks like. I prefer a toolbox with B2B.
What do you think of the list? How can it be improved? What do you think of the manabase?

kabal

02-07-2009, 11:44 AM

I was thinking about this list:

....

How can it be improved?

// Lands
1 Forest
1 Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
1 Mystic Enforcer
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trygon Predator

// Enchantments
4 Counterbalance

// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Rushing River
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Ponder

// Artifacts
3 Sensei's Divining Top

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Pyroclasm
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt

:)

Cenarius

02-07-2009, 12:45 PM

I do not agree with some choices you make.

You only play 2 Basics, which is far too less. You atleast need to play 3 or maybe even 4.
Second thing: Why do you play rushing river? Bounce is pretty bad in a list that isn't Tempo Thresh, like Canadian Thresh.
Third thing: There are far better options than Spell Snare, I think.
Fourth thing: you only have 2 fetch to get 1 of your basics. Thats really inconsistent.

1. You don't play Back to Basics, which is a bomb. It really helps you a lot against bad matchup's, pretty good against 50/50 matchup's and can lead to instant wins against outtapped TA, ANT (with no basics) etc.
2. Pithing Needle is a card that helps against bad matchup's aswell. You really need general cards in big tournaments. Pithing Needle is a card that is never dead against nearly all matchups. Polluted Delta, Survival, Vial, Deed, EE's, Factory's all seem to be pretty good targets.

I was thinking about a build that ruins more Enlightened Tutor and maybe less Counterbalance/top. Like: If you already have Cb/top, more Enlightned tutor aren't bad, because they can search answers. If you need one peace: Enlightened Tutor can find the card. I'm not sure whether this is really good, but it seems oke to me. What do you think?

Jak

02-07-2009, 03:20 PM

I think I can answer a few of these.

-You really only need an Island and Forest to operate. Of course, running more basics does help against some problem match ups, but this deck is 4c and not running enough duals or fetches will get you color screwed.

-Rushing River is probably in there to handle things like Humility. It can also bounce potential blockers or attackers, Survival, Dreadnought, etc. A good, flexible card that you can dig for game one.

-Spell Snare is incredibly good in this format: Goyf, Counterbalance, Survival, Standstill, Sinkhole, Dark Confidant, Hymn, Daze (Pinder), etc.

-True; Personally I would run 3 green fetches.

-Back to Basics is good, but not in a 4c deck. It is pretty spectacular in some UGw builds but the strategies for that list and Der's list are a bit different. One has more counters, while Der's has some more permanent solutions (ie Oblivion Ring, B2B, etc).

-2 Pithing Needle are in the board. Are you wanting it to be main deck? Well, Trygon Predator really helps remove problem artifacts and enchantments so I really don't see the need. Once you know what you are up against after G1, SB them in.

-Enlightened Tutor is iffy. It lets you get some good cards and answers but it takes slots. It is really up to the playstyle. I think the recommended list goes for more counters to assist in the MUs like combo, TA, and the mirror instead of stuff like O Ring, B2B to help against Landstill, etc. Personal preference.

Omega

02-08-2009, 12:24 AM

About ten games of testing with KOR against my Brother (mirror match : we have exactly the same list, except he is running MD EE, and i am running MD trygon predator. EE seems to be a more powerful tool in the mirror, pre-board):

I would say half game when i drew KOR, KOR wasnt as explosive as i expected. In the other half games, KOR was like a tarmogoyf #5-6 (by tarmogoyf, i mean a big fat relatively cheap beater). We used KOR to dodge CB mainly, but also a creature that is stronger than Tarmogoyf (generally, using his ability only once is enough to grow it bigger than tarmogoyf), Our lists are also permanent heavy, so we sometimes have problems reaching 7 cards in the graveyard. This is when KOR can be useful to reach it. (We've cut the predict already)

Im not playing B2B at the moment. They are in my sb.
MD Oblivion Ring and Krosan grip worked wonderfully for me. With that many 3cc, i found myself countering 3cc spells quite often. (I play 2 trygon predator, 2 kor, 2 oring, 1 krosan grip, My brother played 2 EE, 2 Oring, 2 Kor). It is also a good way of dodging CB, while keeping the core of the deck intact. However, having that many 3cc spells can make the starting seven more problematic. I also run 18 lands to support my 7 3cc cards. (3 island, 1 forest, 1 plain, 8 fetchland, 5 duals)

I feel very confident with my current list. But i am still hesitating whether not playing the B2B and Pithing Needle MD. In my limited testing (mainly against TA, Dreadstill and UGW), i found them to be unnecessary. But i know that at any large events, Landstill will be very present.

I think the addition of PTE to our SB or MD will improve our TA matchup greatly. If we can get rid of their 8 threats, the game is ours. Ride the mongoose to victory.
B2B is unnecessary against TA i think. I am still not convinced on Divert, although they can be quite amazing in this matchup. I dont know if it is worth 3 slots in the SB.

But back to my real point... I think 2 Oblivion ring with 1 Krosa grip are wonderful MD. They are almost never dead cards (except maybe against combo). The next legacy event here is going to be big (For a timewalk beta). I think CB will be all over the place (along alot of Landstill, Dreadstill, TA, Tres.hold...). Having more 3cc cards, and having more MD answer to it is certainly the way to go!
I think UGW doesnt need to go 4c. It already has answers to everything... except stupid elves

Robert

Cenarius

02-08-2009, 07:21 AM

Elves, Merfolk, Goblins are greatly improved by pyroclasm.

Landstill, Itf, Threshold (extra counters), solidarity (not really worth mentioning but still), MUC and other U-based decks are improved by pyroblast's.

I'm still doubting whether 4c is the way to go, but Pyroclasm and Pyroblast seem excellent choices for large tournaments 60+ (or mb even 100+, since the metagame will be anything even extended decks like elfball or something). Since I play 2 Trygon Predator's, O ring, Back to Basic's, Pyroblast and Pithing Needle (naming one card, what will it be) the landstill matchup is far better then the usual list's. ITF also becomes better. Those are matchup's that are really hard to win. Daze is the most powerful card in your deck against Landstill/ITF (because it has an awesome way of slowing your opponent down and has a nice synenergy with B2B).

Omega

02-08-2009, 12:26 PM

4c yes, is better against aggro, and pyroblast is wonderful against blue deck BUT
3c allows you to play 4-5 basic lands which allows you to dodge most Non basic land hate. I think that this is a huge advantage over 4c. In a large event, i think i will be expecting more aggro/control than aggro (there will be some merfolks, slivers. There wont be alot of elfes and goblins. Not at an event where the entry fee is high). I can't be sure absolutely, but im willing to take that risk :)

On ITF : With pithing needle and alot of 3cc. You can defeat this deck rather easily. (Pithing needle allow you to block his removals or his recursion) and 3cc just counter his deed and intuition

UGW is already the best color ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh in the mirror. Going 4c wont improve it by much.

Landstill is still my scariest matchup. The deck can just go insane! LAst thursday, i tested against someone with UWB landstill. Fortunately, he told me he didnt play Humility, which relieved me a bit. But he was playing like 13 removal ( something like 4stp, 3 edict, 3 smother and 3 vindicate!!!). We are not even counting the EE he had. CB really shined against him.

godryk

02-08-2009, 01:51 PM

@ Omega: Could we see a decklist? 2 Oblivion+1Krosan, Knight, Trygon, etc.

Cenarius

02-08-2009, 02:00 PM

Adan

02-08-2009, 02:18 PM

I don't know whether you looked properly but my list also plays 4 basics. It also runs Trygon Predators and also Pithing Needle's.

This is the list:

Creatures (10):
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Nimble Mongoose
2 Trygon Predator
1 Mystic Enforcer (maybe -1 Enforcer, +1 Nimble Mongoose)

Cb/top (7):
4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Counters (8):
4 Force of Will
4 Daze

Cantrips (8):
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

Toolbox (5:)
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Back to Basics
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Pithing Needle

Removal (5):
4 Swords to plowshares
(1 Oblivion ring)

Lands (18):

4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 plains
1 forest

I'm in doubt whether 3 Enlightened Tutor and only 3 Counterbalance and 3 Sensei's Divining Top and 1 Pithing Needle is the way to go. Maybe more Enlightened Tutor's means more answers to everything. I need to test this first, before I can conclude anything.

And I'm in doubt whether 4color+Back to Basics can really work out well...

We have already tinkered around with the list for a long time as seen here, here and here:

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=21997
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=22376
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=21395

After having tested a littlebit, coming to the conclusion that Trygon Predator is actually a house in the mirrormatch and Nimble Mongoose usually too small, we restructured UGW Threshold as seen here and here (Clemens scrubbed out of contention at that event):

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=22725
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=22723
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23034

(Clemens is Der_imaginäre_Freund, Daniel is me, Felix is Brehn btw.)

To copy someone's list and mixing it up with a unnecessary concept is definitely the wrong way. I mean, Back to Basics and a 4color manabase. That's awful.

The idea of running 3 Enlightened Tutors is not recommendable my any means necessar. The tutor is clunky, but served as a proxy No. 5 Counterbalance in our build, making the 1of's from the toolbox virtually 2ofs. That was his only purpose. He was good enough to compensate the disadvantage, but you can't efford that disadvantage most of the time, thus playing more than 1 would be fatal.

scrow213

02-08-2009, 02:36 PM

-Spell Snare is incredibly good in this format: Goyf, Counterbalance, Survival, Standstill, Sinkhole, Dark Confidant, Hymn, Daze (Pinder), etc.

Sorry, I just have to ask. Why would you Spell Snare a Daze?

Cenarius

02-08-2009, 02:39 PM

I did not just copy your list, put 2 volcanic's in them and that's it. I play Threshold for a pretty long time now, played nearly every list (even UG). By doing that I could see all flaws of the decks.
I wanted to build a Threshold list that can deal with all their bad matchup's all the same time. Since Threshold does have pretty bad matchup's or 50/50's and optimal build is necessary.
Team Nijmegen first built an 4c threshold list with black without any nimble mongoose's. People illustrated us as idiots, however our list seemed the right choice playing in our metagame. However I soon saw some flaws which could not be overcome by the 4c threshold list.
I looked at other lists and became aware of the Back to Basic's + Enlightened Tutor list. Tested it briefly and came to the conclusion that this is the way to go on an hugh tournament. I became 20e/156, however I was still not satisfied with the list. I started looking for other solution's. One of them was Trygon Predator's which some list's already played. They were pretty awesome in testing.
However UGw Threshold still has flaws. It has a hard matchup against swarms of creatures. It also has a hard matchup against control decks. Both are played a lot at large tournaments.
One way to solve it is to splash a fourth colour, with still 4 basic's and little demand for red (only 2 Volcanic Island) to keep the manabase as consistent as possible (which is hard).
I'm convinced that you do need to have the fourth colour (red) to make the machtup's that are hard to beat better. Since I do want to play Stp's, a little splash is necessary.
My manabase actually isn't that different from your list. The only way my list is different is that my list plays 1 extra dual in exchange for 1 fetch. So your contradicting yourself. The manabase is still solid enough to play B2B, which is needed aswell.
The Enlightened Tutor is something which I am not sure of. A larger search engine is pretty good, however you already play 8 cantrip's and 3 top's to search your Enchantment's and Artifact's. Your probably right on that, however E. Tutor and Counterbalance do have a nice synenergy. If you simple need a CC 3 for an opposing Deed....

Adan

02-08-2009, 04:17 PM

Yeah, Team Nijmegen is absolutely pr0n and everything, right...

Well, you admit yourself that you looked aroung and saw the lists with Enlightened Tutor (and Clemens was the first to play Tutor in the deck, owning the monthly Hassloch event with it).
Thus it is quite outrageous not to give credits. However, you are right about the swarm-aggro problem. But we already have 3 possible solutions:

Engineered Explosives
Dueling Grounds
Rhox War Monk

We tested those cards and Rhox War Monk turned out to be quite decent, having Brushhopper stats and Lifelink which make him very potent as a blocker and as a attacker as his lifelink ability improves the odds to win the damage race before the opponent.

The Red Splash for Pyroclasm seems to be out.dated for me, though Stefan (spiritofthewretch) hyped the red splash again and again, but not because of Pyroclasm, but because of REBs and Price of Progress.

Pyroclasm is not relevant at the moment as Goblins has somehow lost it's status as DTB and is not played frequently anymore.

I still think that UGw does not need a splash which makes the manabase inconsistent (the fetchland-constellation sucks).

The solid manabase is one of UGw's main strenght, altogether with the best removal.

Carabas

02-08-2009, 04:57 PM

Would REB's be enough v. Merfolk, or would that warrant a pyroclasm or two?

spirit of the wretch

02-08-2009, 05:03 PM

If you splash red, you really should play Pyroclasm. Massremoval is just something this deck is lacking. If your Metagoyf doesn't differ completly from ours you will be pleased to have them.

Shugyosha

02-08-2009, 08:04 PM

Yeah, Team Nijmegen is absolutely pr0n and everything, right...

Well, you admit yourself that you looked aroung and saw the lists with Enlightened Tutor (and Clemens was the first to play Tutor in the deck, owning the monthly Hassloch event with it).

Oh really? You guys actually thought it sucked when I started to test Tutor and later on play it. Here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=240588&postcount=1162) for example or there (http://mtgevo.blogspot.com/2008/06/as-one-of-our-big-monthly-tournaments.html). Was something similar with Jotun Grunt btw.

Thus it is quite outrageous not to give credits.

Yes indeed!

Adan

02-09-2009, 01:07 AM

Oh really? You guys actually thought it sucked when I started to test Tutor and later on play it. Here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=240588&postcount=1162) for example or there (http://mtgevo.blogspot.com/2008/06/as-one-of-our-big-monthly-tournaments.html). Was something similar with Jotun Grunt btw.

Well. True. You got me right there. I forgot about your list. You list is still strange, but you are right, though.

diffy

02-09-2009, 12:17 PM

Thus it is quite outrageous not to give credits.

Yes indeed!

This is the internet, remember?
Also, two individuals reaching a similar conclusion does in no way imply one's knowledge of the other's work.
Plus, don't be offended by anything Adan says - he's horribly conservative and will not say that you're correct even if he knows that you are.

I tried to keep the following as on-topic as possible, however, I have to get onto a slight tangent here though:

Oh really? You guys actually thought it sucked when I started to test Tutor and later on play it.

Yes, we did play Enlightened Tutor for some time.
...and have again stopped to do so again. That's called testing, I think. Or development.

Additionally, we may have originally dismissed some cards and have come back on our statement later on, however, this is most of the time due to other developments of the archetype having taken place in the meantime. You might have played a card at a time, and we might have dismissed it at that time. It's likely that, at this time, our dismissal was in full accordance with our best knowledge (i.e. we thought the card sucked at the time) but that, over time, other changes have been made to the deck making an otherwise 'bad' card playable.

I originally included Enlightened Tutor in order to be able to make better use of Back to Basics* (which was included around 3 months (http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?creator=Alexander+Kimpel) after you mentioning Enlightened Tutor). As Back to Basics is somewhat narrow, you don't want to play an excessive amount of it in the maindeck, however, at the time, you did not want to give up on the power it added to the deck. Enlightened Tutor fixed this problem by allowing you to minimize the number of Back to Basics you have to play in the main.
However, as the metagame has become faster, and as people have finally learned the lesson that good manabases are good (seriously, Legacy folks are slow to learn... it took them years of Goblin-domination, various Blood Moon and Back to Basics decks as well as the more recent Stifle hype in order to understand this!), we have cut Back to Basics again from the maindeck... and with it went Enlightened Tutor: I still don't think that NQG can afford the card disadvantage it brings to the deck if you don't have something extremely powerful but narrow (i.e. of which you don't want to play many copies to preserve your flexibility, just like Back to Basics) to tutor up. Spending two cards on a Pithing Needle, Hoofprints of the Stag or Engineered Explosives is just not worth it. Counterbalance can occasionally be worth it, however, you still really don't want to go into a counter/resource-war one card down, especially if you have absolutely no (real) way to recuperate from said card disadvantage.
Now you could say that Enlightened Tutor allows you to save space in your sideboard, however, in the matchups where you want access to your tutor-targets (e.g. Back to Basics against Control), you also want to maximize on the hard copies of said card: absolutely don't want to loose your potential to hose the opponent to a single counter/removal.

*: Team SPOD must have ripped that tech too, as it was A. Kimpel playing it to some first good finishes! Same for Rhox War Monk who was spoiled by you on your blog (http://mtgevo.blogspot.com/2009/01/bant-der-freundschaft.html) prior to our top8 with it!
Just to set the record straight, I'll have to mention that Back to Basics was something Lazo 'Valdez' Vujinovic and I discussed and tested prior to Kimpel's finishes (which were inspired by this creative co-op, as far as I know). As far as the Rhox is concerned, Marius Laber (a member of our team) played Rhox War Monk in his last self-built pile (and jeesh, that guy hasn't played in ages - his build must have originated around the end of last year [i.e. Oct.-Nov.]), and was impressed by it, which, along, once again, a change in the metagame, was the original inspiration for my adoption of it.
This is a prime example for what I meant earlier: your metagame has gone through a development, so has ours. We both searched solutions to said development and found the same conclusion. Did you know of Marius's pile of 2-2-1? I doubt it.

Was something similar with Jotun Grunt btw.

Jotun Grunt maindeck was also no more than a test - he turned out to be nothing but a solid board-in - he's terrific against Aggro Loam - however, he's just too slow in other matchups (it takes him 2+ turns to shrink Tarmogoyf which is necessary in order for him to be of any board presence) and too terrible in the earlygame (which is already lacking) to be worth the trouble of maindecking him.
Hence, again, we couldn't have ripped your tech (which, in fact, should be attributed to Linus Neitzke (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=14820), if to any German), because we, first of all, didn't adopt it, and secondly, adopted earlier due to metagame considerations (2006 (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=6738)! event, 2007 (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=12053) event, plenty of 2008 events already mentioned - and it's not like other people didn't play Jotun Grunt in the sideboard all the time).

'Nough attempts to not get your E-Peen bitten off.

1 Krosan Grip is wonderful MD.

I concur. I started testing this some time ago, mainly in order to attempt to make one of my last derivatives less clunky (Krosan Grip's instant speed is scarily relevant/better than Oblivion Ring's versatility if your build has a higher curve than your current Landstill list) and liked it, especially since it also frees up space in the sideboard (which you are kind of craving for after cutting the Pithing Needles, Back to Basics and Jotun Grunts [in any combination] from the maindeck). I don't know if I fully like it yet, however, it is something to look into, especially since Counterbalance sees more and more play (at least in S.W. Germany, you can see a crystal-clear trend toward a Counterbalance-dominated metagame).

Omega

02-09-2009, 12:54 PM

Im playing 2 oblivion ring and 1 krosan grip as MD "instant" answers to CB (mainly). I dont know if the 2/1 split is best. Oring being a "mini" vindicate is probably what is them in the MD.

It is one of the cards i like most. Two might be better, but i still fear drawing too many of them. In certain matchups, they can be dead cards. Oring is never dead, except against combo. I also like the split between oring and krosan grip. Sometimes, you got a basic land (forest or plain) and opponent plays a bloodmoon. You can still survive :)

my current list
Lands 18
3 island
1 plain
1 forest
8 fetchland
3 tropical island
2 tundra

creature 11
3 nimble mongoose
4 tarmogoyf
2 knight of the reliquary
2 trygon predator

removal 7
4 stp
2 oblivion ring
1 krosan grip

draw 11
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
3 sensei's divining top

counter 13
4 force of will
4 daze
1 counterspell
4 counterbalance

My list is permanent heavy (38), which is why i only have 3 nimble mongoose and no mystic (im missing them, sometimes.)

Robert

Adan

02-09-2009, 12:57 PM

Plus, don't be offended by anything Adan says - he's horribly conservative and will not say that you're correct even if he knows that you are.

Well. True. You got me right there. I forgot about your list. You list is still strange, but you are right, though.

Backstabber...

I have to mention something about Jotun Grunt as well. I actually agreed with Clemens to run 1 or 2 Jotun Grunts in addition to the usual creature base as this was something I still had in mind from pre-Counterbalance ages.

You might find it funny, but there was indeed a period of time where Counterbalance has not reached Threshold players yet.

Instead, the more aggressive UGw variants (i.e. the variants running Mental Notes) included Jotun Grunt as a proxy for the 5th Werebear (I guess it was Tim Kahlmeyer which supported that idea. He's retired I believe.). This concept worked out fine, thus I thought it's not bad, neglecting the fact that we are running Goyf and Counterbalance which make us extensively independant from the need to reach Threshold and at the same time make it hard for us to reach Threshold since the amount of permanents that won't land in our graveyard has increased dramatically.

The only logical consequence is therefore to dismiss all the cards that seem out-dated and try new things such as Rhox War Monk.
I still believe that Clemens played Rhox War Monk because every Frenchmen are playing Rhox War Monk (seriously, every Frenchmen at Extended PTQ Kruft were playing that guy).

So actually we did not stole you Jotun Grunt idea. It's like very old.

And if someone should get credits for maindeck Grunts, it should be Linus Neitzke. This is also the point where I have to admit that his list isn't that random as I always thought. During the testing with proto-type list which looked similar to his list (maybe a difference of 7 cards or something) I was convinced that it can work out very well.

Cenarius

02-09-2009, 02:12 PM

Shugyosha

02-09-2009, 03:16 PM

@SPOD: Thanks for your lenghty and very mature replies. I was actually referring to Linus' Lists with my remarks about Jotun Grunt. There was some discussion back in the thread and I forgot to link it. As you already mentioned (DIF) I was offended by the way of Adans post because he accused a poster to steal "your teams" idea. Now there is not really your or my idea that can be stolen. Thats the reason to discuss here to share ideas. Many people posted lists similar to mine a while ago (MB Threads, etc.) and I tried to discuss with them not accuse them of stealing something. I also not accuse you of stealing BtB or War Monk Tech from somebody (I know Lazo and Kimpel btw). As you said (DIF) we both tested and found solutions like War Monk for example. I also played Grunt in white Thresh before CB (read it somewhere) and found it terrible. Linus was the first one to make it really work in his maindeck I think.

Whether we read it somewhere or came up independently doesn't matter, as long as nobody steps over the line and tries to boast his deckconstruction skills like mad. I hated O. Ring for example but gave it another try after you played it again and again. Now I'm among the staunch defenders of this card but I never said that its my tech.

I felt (my personal view) Adan stepped over this line and that was the point of the whole thing. He responded to my post in a more mature way than I (honestly) expected from him and well, thanks for that.

And to stay on topic ;-)

My problems with Threshold at the moment (whether Tempo or Balanced) is that everybody seems to be well prepared for your few creatures with 7-8 removal and occasionally for your Balance (via curve or Vindicate). That people keep trying to kill of my balance lock is Ok, I can deal with it but it recently became a pain to play with ~10 creatures against removalheavy decks and creatures that trump your Geese on a reliable basis.
I have figured out two routes: More creatures with staying power or play more removal too. Aggro or Control shift basically.
The control shift is quite obvious with Path to Exile now playable but I still can't figure out the right creature base for an aggro shift. Has anyone tested Dryads in the Geese slots? They would solve some problems with the current creature base has but they are damn fragile at first:

4 Goyf
3 Grunt
3 Dryad
3 Predator

At least this base doesn't really care about having a permanent heavy deck. But it opens up for some serious E. Explosive desasters...

Knight hasn't been bad for me too but is more or less finisher material as people stated with potential to abuse some land goodies. I found a 1 Waste/1 Crucible/1 E. Tutor package rather devastating against control decks or in long games.
1 A. Ruins/1 EE/1 E. Tutor was another nice package but you basically have to cut Balance for it to really abuse it which leads to very strange deck lists.

Adan

02-09-2009, 03:29 PM

@ Adan. Instead of flaming other teams without having further information about them and flaming other decks without having them tested thorough, it's probably better to start having "better" arguments when you dislike a new card/more cards of one kind.
Instead of argueing about who is the inventor of the deck, shall we just continue discussing the deck? It just seems unnecessary to me.

I... Well, I will simply refer to the Top8s of Team SPOD and try to debilitate that "You have not tested the deck thoroughly".
We have played that kind of build for a period of time and UGw's main advantage IS the solid manabase. There have been several attempts to build a 4-colored Manabase which does not suck, but there is no constellation of fetchlands which seems to make sense.
The most solid multicolored manabase so far was the 5color Manabase of 5color Threshold. The drawback, however, was the fact that you will scoop to Back to Basics and Blood Moon as soon as they resolve.

Another point why I dislike the manabase is that you impair it with unnecessary duals for which you have absolutely no need for preboard. In exchange, impotant fetchlands were cut which should ensure the persistence of your manabase together with the basiclands etc.

Additionally, it requires you to play 18 lands. For a regular build without a mass of CC3 spells, 17 are enough as the manabase is maintained by the cantrips as well.

Our manabase looks as follows:

4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

-> 16 Lands. This was before Rhox War Monk and Trygon got included. The new one has got +1 Island.

We have:
4 Fetches for a Island (+2 additional Islands)
8 Fetches for the Plains
4 Fetches for the Forest

All the fetches can Fetch any dual you want.

4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

Lets assume you cut 1 Tropical for a Wooded Foothills, you will have:

4 Fetches for a Island (+1 additional Island)
4 Fetches for the Forest.
6 Fetches for the Plains.

The difference is: All of the fetchlands can fetch Tropical Island BUT

Windswept Heath can't fetch Volcanic Island
Wooded Foothills can't fetch Tundra

So, dependant on you draw, some fetchlands may end up being dead or they simply can't fullfill the desired effect for the current gamestate.
Another thing to consider is the fact that a lot of Tribal decks (Elves, Merfolk and the likes) can efford to play Wastelands which can easily disrupt your manabase.

And I actually don't want such a loss of consistency especially against matchups liek tribal decks in which you need to have a solid manabase to play all your business spells and solutions consequently.

So to conclude: I think this manabase can't be better :D. Or do you have tips?

Cut Red.

I think that Rhox War Monk is not enough against all the tribal decks, since its only 1 creature that cannot stop more creatures. Pyroclasm is a very strong card, splashing red for Pyroblast's only would not be a great idea (I agree on that). Splashing for both cards is pretty strong for a deck that has a lot of bad matchup's (50/50's).

Rhox War Monk does enough when played in addition to Tarmogoyf and the other beatsticks, especially because he has got Lifelink.

The argument of Splashing Red Elemental Blast and Pyroclasm is also a thing I can't chum up with. You will NEVER board in both REB and Clasm against one and the same deck.

Red Elemental Blast is supposed to help against the mirrormatch and Landstill for example. But against the mirrormatch we already have better alternatives like flexible removal which is hard to reach for Counterbalance (i.e. Krosan Grip and Oblivion Ring as well as Trygon Predator). All of them have in common that they handle Counterbalance quite efficiently which is also the reason why we board in REB at all (aside from the counterwars).

The counterwars lose relevance since we have possibilities to handle Counterbalance without losing threat density!

Against Landstill, Gaddock Teeg as proven himself as a mighty tool, as well as against combo.

The most useful tool against Swarmaggro and Tribal are still Engineered Explosives and against Goblins the Blue Blasts as they stop Ringleader and Siege Gang Commanger shenanigans.
Pyroclasm are also not efficient enough against Tribal decks as Elves (Imperious Perfect, Elvish Champion), Merfolk (Lord of Atlantis, Merow Reejerey) and even Goblins (Mad Auntie) can obsolete Pyroclasm easily.

kabal

02-09-2009, 03:57 PM

You will NEVER board in both REB and Clasm against one and the same deck.

Merfolk

diffy

02-09-2009, 03:57 PM

My problems with Threshold at the moment (whether Tempo or Balanced) is that everybody seems to be well prepared for your few creatures with 7-8 removal

I only find this to be a problem when I'm not seeing a Counterbalance. For me, the deck has basically turned into Counterbalance.Control.Deck which eventually just drops something and goes on to kill the opponent. This is mainly due to the fact you stated: when playing 'fair', you just don't win a lot - you just lack true power (Intuition, Survival, Dark Confidant, Loam Engines, true lategame bombs etc.)
Basic solution: focus more on the CounterTop plan (e.g. by including more cmc3 cards in order to be able to hit them consistently which is worth gold against control and/or counterbalance-dodge cards).
Not really satisfying, but the only thing I can offer at this date.

4 Goyf
3 Grunt
3 Dryad
3 Predator

After Stefan included Dryad into NQG/r (and finding out that they're awesome), I tried them too, in a build with maindeck Rhox War Monks and no Nimble Mongooses. However, au contrary to the red-splashed build, I found them rather disappointing: besides cantrips you don't have any spells that you can/want to play early or on a neutral to favourable board making Dryad's growth slowish if you don't have the Cantrip Flooded Draw (TM) - however, if you do have that draw, you normally don't need Dryad in order to win either as being able to chain cantrips like a madman puts you ahead in quite some matchups already. For sure you'll grow them to 3/3 after untaping with them on the board, and eventually will grow it to disproportionate dimensions (if they live that long) - however, they aren't reliably big and force you to overextend to a certain degree (which is not what you want to do, especially not against control - one of the matchups where you want Dryad most). Also, just like Nimble Mongoose or Jotun Grunt, they need time to be of any relevance to the board - time you don't have.

Knight hasn't been bad for me too but is more or less finisher material as people stated with potential to abuse some land goodies. I found a 1 Waste/1 Crucible/1 E. Tutor package rather devastating against control decks or in long games.
1 A. Ruins/1 EE/1 E. Tutor was another nice package but you basically have to cut Balance for it to really abuse it which leads to very strange deck lists.

Since freakish777 posted a Canadian-Style White-Splashed Threshold list on the Adept Boards some time ago, I actually had the possibility to test Knight of the Reliquary myself. In that particular build, I never found him terrific: he was always a worse Terravore since you never really had the time to get the Wasteland-tutoring going... and Terravore already isn't exactly what you'd call the best option for Threshold.
In a control-shell, I can't see him pleasing me either as he's expensive (another drain on the curve), slowish, and does not offer built-in protection or evasion, unlike alternatives like Mystic Enforcer about whom people came to the consensus that he's semi-outdated too (I have recently grown to like him as a 1off again, though). He also doesn't really help bad matchups (unlike Rhox War Monk).
I therefore came to the conclusion that Knight of the Reliquary is something like 'Danger of New Things', as, if my testing hasn't totally deceived me, he's a mediocre merge of two sub-par finishers, with an interesting but not terribly good ability. The only thing that makes me smile about the new 'Vore is the ability to pull out some Tabernacles and Maze of Ith post-board against Aggro.

Shugyosha

02-10-2009, 10:07 AM

I only find this to be a problem when I'm not seeing a Counterbalance. For me, the deck has basically turned into Counterbalance.Control.Deck which eventually just drops something and goes on to kill the opponent.

Thats true and its also a reason I run 1-off Tutor to get the "lock" even faster. My meta is really aggro oriented (hence War Monk) and still has different answers like the aforementioned Vindicate and stuff like Vexing Shusher (main). I just don't want to be rely on Counterbalance. Before CB was printed Threshold seemed to run fine and controllish without it. Balance/Top adds strength and consistency but also dependency.

After Stefan included Dryad into NQG/r (and finding out that they're awesome), I tried them too, in a build with maindeck Rhox War Monks and no Nimble Mongooses. However, au contrary to the red-splashed build, I found them rather disappointing: besides cantrips you don't have any spells that you can/want to play early or on a neutral to favourable board making Dryad's growth slowish...

I played Spirits red build and found Dryads quite good. If you look at both lists R (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=22724) / W (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=22725) you will see basically the same structure. Bolts are Swords and you even have more non-exclusive :g: cards than in red with Rings. The problem I just figured out is the inclusion of Relic. They make Dryad the king on the board just long enough. White has Grunts for that but he's far too slow.

In a control-shell, I can't see him pleasing me either as he's expensive (another drain on the curve), slowish, and does not offer built-in protection or evasion, unlike alternatives like Mystic Enforcer about whom people came to the consensus that he's semi-outdated too (I have recently grown to like him as a 1off again, though). He also doesn't really help bad matchups (unlike Rhox War Monk).
I therefore came to the conclusion that Knight of the Reliquary is something like 'Danger of New Things', as, if my testing hasn't totally deceived me, he's a mediocre merge of two sub-par finishers, with an interesting but not terribly good ability. The only thing that makes me smile about the new 'Vore is the ability to pull out some Tabernacles and Maze of Ith post-board against Aggro.

I found the full Wasteland package to be bad as well but this has been quite interesting:

1 A. Ruins
1 Wasteland

3 Knight
1 Crucible
1 EE
1 Enlightened Tutor

The package eats up a lot of space but all cards have benefits even if you are missing some parts. If they come together however they can be quite devastating. EE blows up CB true, but its often enough to use it on 1 or 3 or you have spare CB's already.
Still haven't tested enough though.

Terminator1k

02-10-2009, 10:14 AM

Hi guys, I'm quite new on the forums, but have been playing all kinds of Thres ranging from the older RUg to the Four-color style.

I'm really hyped on the new possibility you bring to the table: Rhox War Monk (RWM). Is this guy really the maindeck? I mean, I'm quite sure that they should be paired with it's best friend - Trygon Predator - and it also adds some 3cc to the CB in order to counter Deed's os so on. Is this guy good enought against Gobos, RDW or Merfolk? Do you have a testing report on him?

The real problem is if with this kind of build, rising up to 3cc and perhaps 1x4cc, could the deck survive to it's 17 land engine?. Now that we got rid of the mongoose (I really think we should move on this guy, with all of those relics running around, and because the deck is more permanent dependant), do you think it's ok to run the 8 cantrip engine? Wouldn't be nicer to move up to 19 - 20 lands (that's my testing point..as far as goes it's quite well).

I saw on the blog you mention before (German blog) the guy running a pair of Bant Charm...isn't this too much wasteland dependant? Is this card worth to make the cut?

I want to provide a list, currently running the 8 cantrip, for you to consider. Please feel free to argument it.

4 Flooded Strand
4 Windwept Heath
2 Tropical
2 Tundra
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Counterbalance
3 Top

4 Swords to Plowsares
2 O'Ring

4 FoW
3 Daze
2 Counterspell

1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Umezawa's Jitte

1 E . Tutor

4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trygon Predator
2 Rox War Monk
1 Sower of Temptation

I know there are some slots really strange, as the jitte on the md and so on, but I'm really worried on all the Gobos and Merfolk MU. Also it gets sinergy with E. Tutor, wich I really see as a nicer card to have at hand. People on the thread disagree on E. Tutor, but when you need anything on the toolbox, or to counter that critical 3cc, or even to o'ring that dreadnought, the card disadvantage is really worth it.

On the other hand, I believe that the real card advantage on the deck is Counterbalance itself. Heck, even the trygon predator can be considered as card advantage, (try it vs a landdstill, or threshold mirror, and you will know what I mean).

With this build you run:

17 x 1cc
14 x 2cc
6 x 3cc
1 x 4cc

I really wanted to have 1xSower just as trump in case, but could be swapped by M.Enforcer or anything else. I aggree with Adan that the best thing this deck has to offer, is it's strong manabase, so I wont go the red route that other memebers are suggesting. Also I would like to point out that pyroclasm does nothing against merfolk or Gobos. They simply rebuild or get a lord and you get -1 virtual card advantage. I really think that in order to beat Gobos, you have to be proactive with cards like StP or the new monk, wich gives some brand-new-shine on the deck. Also I won't run the SB with no less than 4 BeB against burn or Gobos (by the way, monk and jitte shine so well on the MU).

Cheers all.

Berzerked

02-10-2009, 11:57 AM

I'm really hyped on the new possibility you bring to the table: Rhox War Monk (RWM). Is this guy really the maindeck? I mean, I'm quite sure that they should be paired with it's best friend - Trygon Predator - and it also adds some 3cc to the CB in order to counter Deed's os so on. Is this guy good enought against Gobos, RDW or Merfolk? Do you have a testing report on him?

I've just started to test a similar build but with a couple differences.

First off,
-2 O. Ring
-2 Counterspell
+4 Nimble Mongoose

Mongoose is still quite formidable, especially against Control, Fishesque, and decks with low threat counts. Besides, It might be a matter of semantics, but if you drop Mongoose, at least in my opinion, you are no longer playing Thresh, but UGx Fish.

-1 E.Tutor
-1 Pithing Needle
-1 EE
-1 Jitte
+1 Daze
+1 Rhox

I play a single E.Tutor in the standard build, as well, but with more slots devoted to creatures, and a slightly more aggro feel, I did not have room, nor did I want a tutor package. Plus Rhox is good, I like him.

Sower for Enforcer, as you mentioned.

+2 Jitte or PtE, haven't been too sure yet. Both could be very good.

The land count hasn't been a problem for me, though.

Omega

02-10-2009, 12:08 PM

Aleksandr

02-10-2009, 12:38 PM

In some aggro matchup, i found Rhox war monk to be extremely difficult to play. Wasteland/Rishadan port can be problematic

Edit :I think that at a major tournament, i will be playing Dueling ground. These combined with 2-3 PTE SB should do the job against aggro

Plus, Dueling ground can be useful against dredge

Robert

Do not.

Do not play Dueling Ground, they suck horribly. By the time you gonna cast them , ETW or Ichorid smash your face. Rather use Propaganda, if you need such a card. Even though it does not help with Goblins (where Dueling Grounds shines, as it cripples their attack AND defense), in both AnT and Icho mu you will be very happy with it less intensive casting cost and possibility to pitch it to force.
I have tested the card, althoug NOT MUCH, so I can be wrong, but for me the card have noit done anything. Never ever.

Shugyosha

02-10-2009, 12:40 PM

I saw on the blog you mention before (German blog) the guy running a pair of Bant Charm...isn't this too much wasteland dependant? Is this card worth to make the cut?

The card is bad. The lists in the blog are only testing lists and Bant Charm was cut for better spells. I initially added it before I knew about Path to Exile. The problem with Charm is mostly the three mana for just a creature removal. You usually don't need the other two modes.

17-18 Lands are enough I think, even with a curve that features 5-6 cmc :3: slots.

@Rhox: Yeah he is insane against Goyfsligh and Goblins. With 7-8 Fetches and 3 basics there are rarely problems to get :u::g::w:. You won't play him turn three all the time but he is always a house. If you under severe manadenial you can always pitch him to FOW to save your cantrips for digging.

Whether you play him main or SB or cut him depends on your meta. In a meta with loads of Balanced aggro control Trygon main makes more sense obviously.

Omega

02-10-2009, 02:21 PM

in a meta with full of dreadstill, Trygon is also the bomb. Unanswered and Dreadstill pretty much lost the game. Oh wait, UR variant that play 0 removal loses to a single resolved Trygon :D

Against Stompy deck, trygon is wonderful too.

But against aggro, its mediocre to bad. But im still not convinced with Rhox. More testing will bring better conclusions

Against TA, -1 krosan grip, -2 trygon +2-3 PTE. Are pithing needle needed in that MU? (Stop wasteland, and maybe ee/deed post SB)

Robert

Terminator1k

02-10-2009, 04:14 PM

Mongoose is still quite formidable, especially against Control, Fishesque, and decks with low threat counts. Besides, It might be a matter of semantics, but if you drop Mongoose, at least in my opinion, you are no longer playing Thresh, but UGx Fish.

IMO this is threshold due to semantics and heritage of the deck name, but no longer qualifies as that. Perhaps if you include the lonely mystic enforcer, but even with that, you only have ponder+brainstorm as cantrip to reach some kind of threshold for your mongoose. On the other hand, the deck is not defined by this card...if it where so, we would still be using werebears instead of goyfs, don't you think so?

Talking about the critter, don't get me wrong, mongoose has won me so many matches that I really like it, but not in a deck that is not getting the seven cards in the graveyard quick enough. If you run builds that feature wasteland, ponder, daze, lightning bolt, etc, threshold is so quick that mongoose is a monster.

With the build we are discussing, wich I see as CB dependant (aren't we playing 4x MD?), you aren't relying too much on graveyard, but on CB to stablish control. Other than that, you add 4x 1cc more to a deck that has to have diverse cc for CB to be relevant.

I really think that threshold (or NLB, or Bant'o Goyf, or NLBant, whatever), has to evolve and leave older elements that no longer belong to a meta or archetype. You no longer use stifle, predict (well sometimes), and so on, so leave space for new and defining cards. Better have somthing new (RWM, TPredator) adapted to the new meta, than something old as mongoose on a deck that no longer needs it.

I know it's meta dependant, but mine has Goyfslight all over the place as well as Gobos and Merfolk, wich are omnipresent. I'm matching so many vials and quick rushes that the addition of jitte perhaps do the thing for me. With the tutor, you get a virtual second copy of the artifact, as for the much needed EE on other MU (ichorid, merfolk, gobos), or pithing naming factory against landstill. I'm about to test as a 1x MD, and see if it works fine in my meta, because it seems quite techy and unexpected.

My last point on discussion is the counter-suite:

4 CB
4 FoW
3 Daze
2 Counterspell

My reasoning for this is quite simple. As games go long, the use for daze is to be pitched for Fow or as a cc2 for CB. Sometimes, all you need is the sheer power of hard counter, and in those times a counterspell is on top with the library, so you can use it to CB as daze, and to counter that tombstalker, fireblast or similars that can only be answered with Fow. As the meta evolve, you can't no longer rely on your 1,2,3 cc for CB to completely lock the opp, and people start to mess with cc in order to break the balancing (ever played EE for 2 paying 3 mana?) These are the cases you want to see the Counterspell waiting for you.

On the other hand, people will assume you're playing 4x, and it also creates the illusion of "always dazing your spells".

Captain Hammer

02-10-2009, 04:50 PM

I completely agree with you.

Most of the current builds of thresh, playing 4 CB + 3 Top, don't reach threshold nearly fast enough to justify 4 Nimble Mongoose anymore.

A 1/1 untargetable without evasion that becomes a 3/3 untargetable without evasion on turn 5 is no where near the sheer size or utility of the other threats that this deck can play (Tarmogoyf, Mystic Enforcer, Trygon Predator & Knight of Reliquary).

Your threats should be large enough to block weenies and survive in the early game to buy you time versus aggro (occasionally pumping themselves up +2/+2 in the process like Knight), and should grow to be hulk size monsters by the mid-late game. Mongoose fails at both roles. Mongoose often has no real use either early game or lategame. Even wearbear atleast taps for mana during the early game, and becomes modestly large by the midgame. And that card doesnt make the cut. Why should a creature with even less utility make the cut instead?

P.S: Rhox doesn't make the cut either. The card is crap except against the occasional goblins/burn/sligh matchup.

Cenarius

02-10-2009, 05:10 PM

The only problem with playing cards like Trygon predator, KoR and Mystic Enforcer is that they are fairly slow or small (in case of Trygon predator) when you play it early game.
Nimble Mongoose helps you to have the early game pressure you need to resolve cards like Tarmogoyf, Mystic Enforcer etc. Although Trygon Predator has a nice effect, its damage is fairly low. An 6-7 turn clock is too slow in this format, even with CB/top on the table.
Playing Predict helps you getting CA and helps you to get faster Threshold. Without playing predict's it is ofcourse too hard to let Nimble Mongoose be a real threat. I agree on that.

Captain Hammer

02-10-2009, 05:25 PM

I'm going to cut out your criticisms of Trygon Predator as a beatstick because simply, that is not the role that Predator serves. It's not there to deal damage. It's there as a recurring Seal of Cleansing in a meta that is obsessing over CB+Top Oblivion Ring and Dreadnought and other enchantments.

Even as a beatstick Predator deals roughly the same damage as Mongoose, and actually has evasion to boot where as Mongoose even as a 3/3 is small enough that it gets stuck unable to attack if your opponent has in play any of the creatures popular in the format, but that's not the point. Because predator is not a card that would be replacing Mongoose. It's a card that replaces Oblvion Ring depending on how many enchantments and artifacts show up where you play.

The only problem with playing cards like KoR and Mystic Enforcer is that they are fairly slow... when you play it early game.
Nimble Mongoose helps you to have the early game pressure you need to resolve cards like Tarmogoyf, Mystic Enforcer etc.

Since when did swinging with a 1/1 qualify as applying pressure? It doesn't. By the time Mongoose becomes a 3/3, you can play any of the other threats I listed and everyone of them except for Goyf would be twice the size that Mongoose is.

You're right that if you manage to cast Predict early on, you can get threshold faster.

But some builds don't play Predict, and those that do often play 2 Predict. You can't count on seeing a card early game when you're only playing two copies of it. You need to play 8 copies of a card to be able to count on seeing one early with any consistency.

Omega

02-10-2009, 05:48 PM

Mongoose can apply early pressure. Sometimes it can deal 5 damage (against Landstill Ie when they dont draw mishra, and since they cant destroy it with ping removal)
Against a deck like landstill, 5 damage can become very important.

Against TA, every damage matters.

Against ANT combo, every damage done is important

Captain Hammer

02-10-2009, 06:26 PM

One turn 6 swing with any of the other creatures (Goyf, Enforcer or Knight of Reliquary) is equavlent to those five early swings with Mongoose.

And realistically all those other creatures are playable on turn 3-4, so Mongoose actually only gets three turns worth of additional swings for a total of three damage.

You'll probably argue that the other creatures can be killed by an StP. But that StP was going to hit your Goyf or Enforcer regardless, the more Goyf type creatures you play, the more you'll be able to keep in play.

And also, Mongoose can just as easily be hit by either a Factory or an EE. And landstill plays more Factories and EEs than it does StPs. So if you're taking up the premise that the opponent doesn't see either a Factory or an EE for the first five-six turns, I can just as easily take up the premise that your opponent doesn't see an StP for the first five-six turns. And by then, the other guys would've dealt more damage than Mongoose, even if they didn't come out till turn four.

You can argue that that 3 damage matters. But you'll have a tough time convincing me that that's good enough to warrant devoting four slots in the deck to.

Omega

02-10-2009, 06:40 PM

If you are landstill player. Are you going to ee @ 1 for a non ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh mongoose? He will likely keep it in hand to answer goyf and CB

Captain Hammer

02-10-2009, 07:08 PM

Fine, regardless.

Landstill plays the same number of Mishra's Factories as it does StP. So as explained above, if Mongoose is replaced by 2 Knight of Reliquary and 2 Mystic Enforcer, either card would deal more damage than Mongoose by turn 5 under the same ideal conditions you laid out.

mackaber

02-10-2009, 07:22 PM

Captain Hammer

02-10-2009, 07:39 PM

Yes, mongoose is a great counter to early standstill. That much I agree with.

But other than this situation, I think in general, a threatbase of...

4 Tarmogoyf
2 Knight of Reliquary
2 Trygon Predator
2 Mystic Enforcer

is stronger than a threatbase of...

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trygon Predator

I see the former being a lot more useful and powerful against a lot more matchups and in a lot more situations than the latter. And yet, most of the current lists seem to run the latter as the threatbase.

Since the deck currently only has 10 slots to devote to creatures. Why not devote them to the 10 biggest/strongest most overwhelming creatures it can get it's hands on.

I mean, beating down with creatures is the only win condition that this deck has afterall.

PowrDragn

02-11-2009, 01:05 AM

This could just be my inexperience of the format talking, but why not move to something like the following? :

4 Windeswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

18 Lands

4 Tarmogofy
3 Nimble Mongoose
2 Trygon Predator
2 Knight of Reliquary
1 Mystic Enforcer

12 Creatures

4 Force of Will
3 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Oblivion Ring
4 Ponder
3 Daze
1 Counterspell
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Pithing Needle
4 Swords to Plowshares

31 Spells

Something like this seems to be a good middle ground. Having the Goose as an early play is still nice and it is a creature that's hard to kill while you're trying to get your work done with the others.

I'd like to make room for one more Counterspell in this version, but otherwise, I think it's fine.

Threshold isn't an issue. You'll still reach it enough for it to be relevant and useful, but you're not worried about reaching it.

Terminator1k

02-11-2009, 02:55 AM

I wonder how often ya'll have played against / with landstill. From my experiences this is the MU where mongoose is at it's absolute best. You also have to remeber that a turn one mongoose from your side of the board makes their standstill that much worse and since they can't sword it Standstill sudenly becomes rather subpar if they don't have a factory to back it up.

If mongoose shines vs a MU is vs landstill. As you say, landstill plays mishra, so got this gamestate:

Turn1: Mongoose.
Turn2: Standstill on play.

You start to apply mongoose beats. Because you're afraid of breaking the still, you don't reach threshold and landstill player lay a factory. Then your mongoose apply the last point of damage, and you run into landstill gamestate, mid-late game without any defense on board. You break standstill EOT with your brainstorm, but your opp is so well ready to play, that has the perfect hand. Dont' get me wrong, mongoose is nice vs landstill, but they play around it on a lot of manners. Heck, even a cycled decree will kill your mongoose on the fifth turn (remember they don't break standstill) and then get the pressure on you.

If you play mongoose on this deck is because you're playing the threshold archetype and you need early pressure on board or a cantrip suite that serves enough for the critter. I really think that 4 Stp,4 Ponder, 4 Brainstorm doesn't do the trick (yeah, you have fetchies), you would need the predicts, and so on, but predict is not worth the slot on a CB deck.

Another idea I though was to use a lonely Life from the Loam on the deck, but this time you're towards a Is The Fear kind of deck. LfL has real sinergy with CB (you see 3 card don't, like, you get rid of them) and also enables thold so quick. ITF is a deck I played for a while, but found quite slow for my tastes and style of play.

Is KotR really worth the slot for the Rhox War Monk? I see the guy is really nuts, but you have to get on mind that Rhox can be pitched to fow, and is a real beastick vs aggro. IMO when you play this kind of deck you're getting on the field "good vs anything but bad vs anything", so you have to somehow define your deck.

The beater on your deck is the Goyf (well, perhaps your trygon riding a Jitte to victory :cool: ), and this guy is a kinda win more. I think it should be relegated to builds that feature wasteland or ARuins (ITF is one deck I couls see playing him), not a CB deck that sometimes doesn't want to have a shuffle efect that also makes your guy tap out.

RWM on the other hand is a wall on the table. It stops the majority of threats and is beast vs burn (yeah, remember that deck that doesn't care of your deck). I see it as Fow pitcher vs combo, as trygon could be.

I'm thinking on including a lonely threads of disloyalty for one of the Oring. It has the same effect with CB on top, gets some tarmo/Confidant/Dreadnought and can be pitched to FoW. Notice I'm really worried to have shenaningans to pich to fow, as the deck develops you have to keep in mind the fundamentals, and this is one of them.

PowrDragn

02-11-2009, 12:45 PM

I was just reviewing some tournament results from last month and it seems that Boros/Goyf Sligh/Zoo, is making a top 8 almost every time. They just aren't in the decks to beat, due to being different decks, but honestly, they function similarly.

This being the case, would we rather have RWM to protect ourselves. Hell, even against Merfolk it can be a bit of lifegain to help us survive an extra turn or two.

Cenarius

02-11-2009, 01:11 PM

Those decks are already easy to get with CB/top and with the Hydroblast's in sideboard. Trust me, you don't need to play a creature that is multi-mana intensive, just because it is good against such deck.
The following cards are pretty stuck for me:

4 Goyf
2 Trygon Predator
(3/4 Nimble mongoose)
1 Mystic Enforcer

4 CB
1 Oblivion Ring

3 Top

4 Force
3/4 Daze (4 if you play B2B)
4 brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
Xx Predict's (you guys don't seem to like them, but they are the only CA you have, it is important playing against another Agro-Control deck).

The rest of the cards seem to be filled in with your need's. O ring + Trygon Predator does not need extra cards that deal with Artifact's and Enchantment like Pithing Needle. It's just probably too much.
Personally I still think that B2B is really strong in my Metagame, so that will be in my deck.

PowrDragn

02-11-2009, 10:48 PM

OK guys. I played 12 games today against Goyf Sligh and won 7. This was all presideboard. I also lost one game to an unfortunate draw (Brainstorm into 2x Brainstorm + Island with no way to shuffle). One game I lost to my opponent having a spectacular burn draw to go with 3x Goyf. Make of that what you will with the results.

I also made a couple of changes to include RWM. I wanted to see how he fared against aggro decks. The build I played looked like:

3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Enlightended Tutor
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Ponder
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 counterspell
3 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Mystic Enforcer
1 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Trygon Predator
2 Rhox War Monk
3 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

Before, I go any further, I understand that this is a small sample size. So, take the results with a grain of salt. I did play against two competent players during the course of the games, so I'm not worried about that spect of the testing.

And yes, I'm aware that the list is 61 cards. I couldn't decide what to cut and I'd also moved up to 18 land. It didn't appear to swing the testing results too much one way or the other.

Anyway, my observations...

Rhox War Monk is really good. I didn't ever run into issue playing him. He always forced a 2-for-1 situation or allowed me to gain enough life to put the game out of reach. I won at least three games strictly due to RWM (Possibly a 4th, but definitely 3). I don't think the deck needs any more at this time, but I was never upset seeing them.

Knight of the Reliquary only came up twice. Once it was a game winner just due to size. In the other game, it went into super grow mode and did something interesting. I was a 4/4 (2/2 + 2 Flooded Strand in graveyard). My opponent target it with Rift Bolt, then Magma Jet. I sac'd a land to get Windswept Heath, then sac'd it to get a Tropical Island. That made him a 6/6 (2/2 + sac'd Tropical Island + 2 Flooded Strand + 1 Windeswept Heath). It also shot me right up to Threshold to go with a Mongoose I had.

That's definitely something interesting to think about. I'm not sure where to squeeze room for one more unfortunately. I would definitely give this guy some more consideration and say that it definitely need to be tested more. It could even be used to get you out from under Back to Basics if needed.

The singular Mystical Tutor only came up twice, but it was nice both times. Once I used it to get an Oblivion Ring which turned into a game winning situation. The other time I used to get a Counterbalance which helped me crawl back from behind.

I also removed the Pithing Needles entirely, in exchange for Counterspell. These were nice to have around. I agree that Trygon Predator reduces the need for main deck Pithing Needle. Of course, if you are in an artifact heavy environment, go ahead and paly them.

So, for me, as it turns out, I like both of the new additions to the deck. I think they both warrant more testing. If you are against either card, I recommend playing them and seeing how well they work out for you. Personally, I'd like to play 2 KotR and 2 RWM, but I'm not sure there's room. Even with this 61 card list, I'm having trouble deciding what to pull.

My comments could be worthless, but if nothing else, maybe I'm providing a starting point for someone else.

Terminator1k

02-12-2009, 02:54 AM

Well, congrats on your report for the new deck. IMO you don't need the mongooses and these open up slots for you to use, and try to get rid of the 61th card. You also really need the 4th CB, because is the MVP (think of it as the 4th goyf on this deck).

Manabase should be 18 lands, trying to minimize duals count (2 Tropical, 3 Tundra?) or even cutting one of the fetchs (you run ponder, so you will be shuffling a lot).

Regarding the critters, I would cut the mistic enforcer and the KOR. This is my actual build for critics.

4 FStrand
3 WHeap
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest
3 TIsland
3 Tundra

4 Goyf
2 Trygon
2 RWM
1 Mystic Enforcer <- Probably getting rid of it.

4 StP
1 O'Ring

2 Counterspell
3 Daze
4 FoW
4 CBalance

3 SdT
1 EExplosives
1 Vedalken Shackles

2 E.Tutor <- Probably one is the best

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm

Not really sure on the 2nd Tutor and the Mystic Enforcer. Also considering cutting the Shackles for the second EE or anything else. You guys really think the deck run good enough with only 18 lands?

I intend to run it on a test session, and see if it works fine to get to the GP. As soon as I have report, I'll write it down.

Misplayer

02-12-2009, 07:51 AM

Adan

02-12-2009, 08:05 AM

Cenarius

02-12-2009, 09:17 AM

When playing UGw, this manabase is prob the best:

4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

Do not cut the Tropical Island, since you have far more green (creature) cards than white card's.

Terminator1k

02-12-2009, 09:39 AM

Played UGbw (with thoughseize, swords, confidant) last night at a small local tournament and luckily convinced the Goyf Sligh player to draw after we were both 2-0 heading into the last round. We played out some games and I got rocked. CB/Top is not as good as you think, especially because once you get it online with mana open you've already taken at the very least 5 damage and he usually has a beater on the table. 4 Blasts came in g2 but he gets Grip and Shusher - not good. I needed RWM badly in this matchup and I think it deserves a slot in any sideboard headed to Chicago.

Well, I'm going to test it with 3 Tundra because of some techy with WW on it's casting cost from the sideboard. As far as my build goes, you only need to have G in order to cast everything on the deck. On the other hand, should you be worried about wasteland, go for the Forest.

I really see the RWM winning a pair of slots MD. As adam and his team (or Adam's team) spoiled, is quite tech vs all the aggro running around.

Regaring your MU vs RDW, and it's 5 damage on board. Better get some Threads from your side and some BEB that should be. CB + Top is the LOCK vs this deck, and anything you put in front of him (RWM, specially) should be golden to stop the beats. On the other hand, aren't you running 4xStP? Perhaps you got unlucky on your draw, but UWg should be 65% preboard and 75% post board. On the other hand, as Adam says, THGS and DC from your Black splash is also "splash" damage.

i'm trying to convince myself about the 4xPonder, because the exchange semms like 20 Land or 18 + 4 Ponder. I think the "sorcery" from Ponder helps with Goyf, but we should be watching out for opposing goyf. At now, I wont go in a tournament without 2xToD between MD and SB. You would be facing a 60% of decks with the goofy on it's deck.

Please, salivate on the idea of getting a Dreadnough...:cool:

Citrus-God

02-12-2009, 09:59 AM

Let's be honest to ourselves here; we run Nimble Mongoose so that when we lay down a a blind Counterbalance, or even assemble the Counterbalance, we don't have to leave a 1cc card on top. Nimble Mongoose is pro Swords to Plowshares. We run Swords to Plowshares against Mishra's Factories... we shouldn't be afraid of assembly workers here...

Terminator1k

02-12-2009, 10:36 AM

Jaiminho

02-12-2009, 11:35 AM

You're not running mongoose beacuse of the cc1 for CB...you're using them to stop lackey, or apply early pressure against control.

Without mongoose you've a wooping 15 cc1 cards, so on a blind CB, you're probably hitting something with them. People is running 3 at the most, even 2...when a card is so lousy, please consider cutting it for other goodies. On the other hand, we have talk enought on this matter.

You misread his post. He described a board state of CB + Mongoose, in which you don't need to keep a 1cc on the top of your library to stop Swords to Plowshares, just like you have to with you other beaters.

Terminator1k

02-12-2009, 11:48 AM

Yep, sorry, tried to edit it , but couldn't for some reason.

Understood, but I still think you don't get the "playable" point with these arguments. The "I don't need to leave 1cc on top to stop plowsares, so I should play mongoose" clause, don't seem good enough to convince me. mongoose WAS ok on threshold, but this is not longer that deck, appart from the name. Your mongoose is a 1/1 no target most of the time, and better get the opp guessing about wasting StP on your trygon or tarmogoyf.

Anyhow, I won't get around on this issue again, I think I gave enough reasons not to play the critter, at least for my point of view. Should you play it, then its ok for you, good luck and win lots of games with it. :rolleyes:

jazzykat

02-12-2009, 11:56 AM

Terminator1k

02-12-2009, 12:10 PM

Adan

02-12-2009, 12:31 PM

I really see the RWM winning a pair of slots MD. As adam and his team (or Adam's team) spoiled, is quite tech vs all the aggro running around.

IT'S ADAN!!!

And well, SPOD is not my Team (you COULD get that impression because I am the guy which looks showered the most of all the SPOD members), but I joined Team SPOD.

And I am still convinced that it was Clemens idea to play RWM as every Frenchmen are playing Rhox War Monk (no shit, all of the French guys at the Ext. PTQ Kruft were playing Bant Aggro without a exception). Just kidding...

About Nimble Mongoose:

I've been a huge fan of them for a long time, but after the Aggro-Loam-mania we had in Hassloch and the random shit I've been facing in Mannheim, I began to agree with Clemens that they are somehow out-dated.

Aggroloam was the only factor we could really calculate with, thus it also warped the metagame in which Nimble Mongoose was crap.

Landstill get beaten by Aggroloam, so the matchup they are useful against is non-existent. Against Aggroloam they are ALWAYS too small in compairison to their creatures.

Thre presence of Aggroloam also made Goblisn vanish. Another matchup where Nimble Mongoose shined.

However, it seemed that Aggroloam gets beaten by Goyf Sligh (as long as Goyf Sligh ran maindeck TSH to deal with Chalice).

After the impact of Goyf Sligh, Aggroloam was pushed back and Goyf SLigh and it's sidekicks such as Tribal Zoo were coming up. And in the earlygame, Geese really can't do much against a 2/2 or 3/3 Nacatl, or a 2/3 Kird Ape, or Goyf etc.

These are some reasons why Nimble Mongoose sucks atm.

Shugyosha

02-12-2009, 12:57 PM

What I have noticed regarding, the new lists cutting mongoose is moving from 4 x 1 CC creature to some amount of 3 cc creatures. Does this significantly affect your ability to defend yourself in the early gameand allow you to still be aggro enough? Also, what happens when you get a land or 2 destroyed/stifled early on, can you guys actually come back from that in a timely fashion as it seems the CMC of the deck is starting to go up?

That's the problem as the manacost shift makes Daze bad. The Mongoose replacement should cost one or two mana at most but there is nothing that fulfills a similar role. Jotun Grunt is the best I found but has its problems as has been mentioned quite often here. Everything you can play for one mana is too weak and/or targetable.
Simply swapping Geese for 3xThree Mana Beater and the 18th land leads to lists that are far to slow to combat Goyfsligh and its companions. Nimble Mongoose is not exceptionally good early in these matchups but can at least chump one turn to prevent some lifeloss until you can cast better stuff. If you then survive the initial onslaught you will have Threshold most of the time because you have to counter and Swords a lot and then Mongoose are good again because they can block everything to death but Goyf.

So another route might be, to leave 3-4 Geese in the deck but treat them as primary sideboard slot for other creatures. Against Goyfsligh for example you then board:

-3/4 Mongoose
-3/4 Daze
(-2 Predict)

+4 Blast
+3 Rhox War Monk
(+2 Jotun Grunt)

Now you still have the cost increase but you also get 4 Blasts to compensate it and you still have Mongoose for the matchups where they shine (MUC/LS/...)

Misplayer

02-12-2009, 02:08 PM

The matchup against Goyf Sligh usually becomes garbage when you add Dark Confidant and Thoughtseize...

I was thinking that out loud before our faux-match and my opponent told me that he would burn down Confidant to keep me from drawing cards, and he did. Also, Thoughtseize can rip Price of Progress, Fireblast, Goyf, Figure, etc. all of which are worth the damage. Granted losing life to your own cards makes their job easier, the effect can often be powerful enough to win the game. Also, I lost maybe 5 life over 3 games to these cards, and he had more than enough ammo to make up for it.

@Terminator: CB/Top is not a lock and hardly game-deciding against Goyf Sligh. I did mention that they get 4 Grip and 3 Shusher out of the side right? I can't see straight UGW being 65% pre-board and 75% post even with RWM. Maybe 40 pre and 65 post. Goyf Sligh is a good good deck and causes problems for Thresh, at least in my eyes.

Terminator1k

02-12-2009, 04:30 PM

IT'S ADAN!!!

And well, SPOD is not my Team (you COULD get that impression because I am the guy which looks showered the most of all the SPOD members), but I joined Team SPOD.

:laugh: ok, from now on ADAN!! (thunder and clashes around). Congrats on SPOD, I really like the comments from your team.

@Terminator: CB/Top is not a lock and hardly game-deciding against Goyf Sligh. I did mention that they get 4 Grip and 3 Shusher out of the side right? I can't see straight UGW being 65% pre-board and 75% post even with RWM. Maybe 40 pre and 65 post. Goyf Sligh is a good good deck and causes problems for Thresh, at least in my eyes.

Well, Goyfslight is a hard deck, no question on that, but as they bring in krosan grip and shusher from the board, you bring in BeB, Threads, or anything else.

If they bring such combination (half of their SB, by the way...), they are getting rid of some burn/men. This means slower game, and this is where you want to be against them. Remember you're running EIGHT "destroy everyyou" (Stp, BEB), CB+Top, Threads, Monks, etc...Not talking about your own goyf, wich they can't remove without a waste of resources (wait, RWM also requires TWO of their cards). So, IMO, is not a walk on the park, but I think you're on good position to start to negotiate. :tongue:.

No one is talking about landstill MU, and for me this is what really get's the 30% preboard. I can't see how to play well enought against it...for example, is gaddog teeg good vs them? Sure, you're trumping WOG, FoF, EE, FoW...but then it goes farming and they still play ok. Back to Basis seems ok vs them, but only if they can't see it coming. Would you leave any StP against them? SB for example:

+2 Gaddog Teeg, +3 Krosan Grip, +1 B2B, -3 StP, -3 Daze

Is this good enough? What are the cards you want to get rid of against this MU? Any comment (appart from playing mongoose against them) is appreciated.

Citrus-God

02-12-2009, 04:31 PM

I was thinking that out loud before our faux-match and my opponent told me that he would burn down Confidant to keep me from drawing cards, and he did. Also, Thoughtseize can rip Price of Progress, Fireblast, Goyf, Figure, etc. all of which are worth the damage. Granted losing life to your own cards makes their job easier, the effect can often be powerful enough to win the game. Also, I lost maybe 5 life over 3 games to these cards, and he had more than enough ammo to make up for it.

@Terminator: CB/Top is not a lock and hardly game-deciding against Goyf Sligh. I did mention that they get 4 Grip and 3 Shusher out of the side right? I can't see straight UGW being 65% pre-board and 75% post even with RWM. Maybe 40 pre and 65 post. Goyf Sligh is a good good deck and causes problems for Thresh, at least in my eyes.

So is anybody running Chill again? I have 4 of those sitting in my SB atm.

Jak

02-12-2009, 05:09 PM

SB is pretty basic except for Rhox War Monk. I have a hard on for this card and I think it is awesome against red decks since decks like Goyf Sligh will usually take out Balance with Grips. Rhox is an unboltable, life gaining, beast.

Rawr! I came up with this Rhox shit! Give me my credit!

/kidding

Mongoose is solid. I don't understand people not liking him. Sure, Tombstalker, Goyf, and Dreadnought (Oh my!) are bigger, but that is why we play removal and counters.

I admit, metas are different so changing them out for utility or bigger creatures does seem nice.

Still, Knight... You might as well run Terravore

aTn

02-12-2009, 05:34 PM

So is anybody running Chill again? I have 4 of those sitting in my SB atm.

Goblins is present where I play, so I prefer BEB-Hydroblast - my reasoning: Chill against an active Vial doesn't do much...

memnarch

02-12-2009, 07:31 PM

I really like the monk idea. I have been trying to think of a way to get more creatures in. that really helps with burn and aggro. what do you think about making UGw a little more creature heavy like this:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 nimble mongoose
2 mystic enforcer
2 trygon predator
2 rhox war monk

4 FOW
4 Brainstorm
4 ponder
4 STP
3 daze
2 counterbalance
2 SDT
2 enlightened tutor
1 pithing needle
1 powder keg
1 EE

lands 18

4 flooded strand
1 polluted delta
4 tropical island
3 tundra
2 savannah
2 island
1 forest
1 plains

side:

4 chill
4 wheel of sun and moon
4 propaganda
3 krosan grip

I thought it needed to be on the high end of the land curve because of the frequency of 3 mana spells. The upside to that is they are still pitchable to FOW and counterbalance hits 3 more.

Captain Hammer

02-13-2009, 12:41 AM

Knight of the Reliquary only came up twice. Once it was a game winner just due to size. In the other game, it went into super grow mode and did something interesting. I was a 4/4 (2/2 + 2 Flooded Strand in graveyard). My opponent target it with Rift Bolt, then Magma Jet. I sac'd a land to get Windswept Heath, then sac'd it to get a Tropical Island. That made him a 6/6 (2/2 + sac'd Tropical Island + 2 Flooded Strand + 1 Windeswept Heath). It also shot me right up to Threshold to go with a Mongoose I had.

I would definitely give this guy some more consideration and say that it definitely need to be tested more. It could even be used to get you out from under Back to Basics if needed.

So, for me, as it turns out, I like both of the new additions to the deck. I think they both warrant more testing. If you are against either card, I recommend playing them and seeing how well they work out for you. Personally, I'd like to play 2 KotR and 2 RWM, but I'm not sure there's room.

KOR indeed is an absolute beast. And not testing him is a giant mistake that a lot of people here seem to be making. Thank you for not making the same mistake.

I personally still run and am a giant fan of the 19-20 manabase that supports 3 Wastelands and 2-3 Basics.

A lot of the recent additions to the deck brought up the deck's curve significantly. Top + CB combo (esp Top), Oblivion Ring, Trygon Predator, Mystic Enforce and the lower cantrip count all need a higher land count than the 17-18 that people have been running. Wasteland lets you play a higher land count, and best of all, serves a function on the rare occasion that you get mana flooded as well.

Most of our threats are high cc. Mystic Enforcer, Trygon Predator and KOR all cost a lot. Top sucks up a ton of mana. So does losing the occasional land to Stifle/Wasteland/Sinkhole. This is why the deck has become so vulnerable to LD.

We can't afford to miss landdrops anymore. The deck is playing fewer cantrips than ever before. Wasteland lets you have the best of both worlds, both ensuring that you never miss a land drop, and should you get mana flooded on occasion, letting you use your lands to slow down your opponents mana development instead.

Also...

It works well with Daze and Divert (and if you opt to play it, Stifle but that's not neccesary).

It gives you tech against factories and mutavaults to delay or neuter standstill.

It slows down all manner of board control decks from The Rock to Landstill to even Quinn. It gives you a way to blow up ancient tombs to mana screw or buy a few extra turns against fairie stompy/dragon stompy/armageddon stax. For decks with a curve so heavily dependent on lands that can tap for two, these decks only play 8 total such lands. I've found that blowing up one can really slow them down some times.

And it even lets you screw your opponent out of a color, esp when combined with KOR.

I honestly can't think of anytime that I've regreted drawing Wasteland since it can so easily alternate functions between manasource and disruption, depending on your and your opponent's mana development.

Here's the CB/Top variant I play (I also alternate it with a version without CB/Top)...

4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
2 Polluted Delta
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Island
2 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
3 Wasteland

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Trygon Predator
2 Mystic Enforcer

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Divert

4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Diving Top

Please try out the build before making false assumptions about how it functions.

If you're not yet sold on Divert, you can play Spell Snare instead. But Divert is actually really really solid (even if you don't run Wasteland). Esp now that Mongoose got the boot (from my build atleast).

Note I personally only ever played 3 CB, but I varied the build around a little bit because most people seem to be fans of playing 4.

About KOR vs. RWM, ask your self this...

Would you rather play a 3/4 lifelink or a guy that's usually a 5/5, and can both block and pump himself +2/+2 anytime that he wants all while helping achieve threshold and has a ability (to grab you wasteland after wasteland to blow up factories or colorscrew an opponent) that occasionally wins games by itself to boot?

Terminator1k

02-13-2009, 12:59 AM

I also used to run 20 land builds with 3 wasteland. The problem is that without stifle they seem kinda weird. Now with your KOR addition, they make more sense as "waste-you-on-demand" is really nice. If I where playing this guy, I'll go up on mana solely because of him (you sac one land, and then use the other..so your deck is -2 land now...could it be problematic for your game development if there is not enough lands).

I won't test the KOR because I can't acces them at now, but probably will on the future.

Captain Hammer

02-13-2009, 01:19 AM

bowvamp

02-13-2009, 01:54 AM

Captain Hammer, you are a thresh god...
I'm playing your list as I speak (private mws session) and am lovin' it!

Captain Hammer

02-13-2009, 02:12 AM

Captain Hammer, you are a thresh god...
I'm playing your list as I speak (private mws session) and am lovin' it!

Thanks for trying the list. I'm glad you like it. :smile:

I think just about anyone would fall in love with the list if they just tested it.

Omega

02-13-2009, 02:25 AM

Although divert can do some nice tricks, im am not sure if it can be MD. OF course, if your meta is all burn/sligh and low land aggro/control...

I would probably cut the 2 divert for 2 Oblivion ring to have 2 additional MD answer against problematic permanents.

And yes, KOR is good, especially as a tarmogoyf #5-6 (i am playing only two). I am not sold though on the land trick. Adding wasteland doesnt look like improving much of our MU (Landstill problem was never his Mishra's but its ability to generate huge card advantage and playing a lot of removal). Its just too inefficient without Stifle and/or additional Land removal.

Captain Hammer

02-13-2009, 02:45 AM

Another thing I love about the new list is that it has a fantastic curve for Counterbalance+Top...

0cc - 20 Cards
4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
2 Polluted Delta
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Island
2 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
3 Wasteland

1cc - 17 Cards
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Divert
3 Sensei's Divining Top

2cc - 12 Cards
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Daze
4 Counterbalance

3cc - 5 Cards
3 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Trygon Predator

4cc - 2 Cards
2 Mystic Enforcer

5cc - 4 Cards
4 Force of Will

Omega,

Wasteland isn't there as a trick. It's there because...

a.) The curve of the deck is so much higher these days than it used to be.

CB+Top eat up a lot of mana.
KOR, Trygon Predator and Mystic Enforcer eat up a lot of mana
Playing around Daze eats up a lot of mana.
If you replaced Divert with O. Ring like you suggest, the eats up more mana too.

b.) The early threshold builds ran 14-16 cantrips along with 4 Werebear to support a land count of 17-18. Some builds ran roughly twice the number of cantrips we currently run. (Just take a look at the lists in the OP if you don't believe me). Even an year ago, the builds usually ran 12 cantrips or so. But since making room for CB+Top, the deck has had to cut out a lot of it's older cantrips, but has never upped it's manacount to make up for this. The current builds run 8-10 cantrips, no Werebears, and a much higher curve to boot.

c.) More and more decks blow up your lands these days (Sinkhole, Stifle and Wasteland are more popular than ever before).

d.) Wasteland infact is useful against Factories, Scrying Sheets, Mutavaults, Cabal Coffers, Ancient Tomb, Academy Ruins, or just a random dual.

By playing Wasteland, you deal with all four of the above problems. And on the very rare occasion that you do draw more lands than you needed, Wasteland can usually find a useful target that hurts your opponent's game plan.

As for Divert, it counters FoW, StP, Snuff Out, Counterspell, Smother, Burn, Edict and all sorts of other randomness. When you divert a removal spell to an opponent's own creature, you buy a metric ton of tempo for just one mana. And the list of randomness is pretty big. For example, if you have a Top in play, Divert can counter Stifle by diverting the card to Top. If instead, you have a Counterbalance in play but know that your top card isn't Stifle, I think you might be able to Divert Stifle onto Counterbalance isntead. Regardless, I found Divert to be really solid esp since all our threats are must counter or must kill cards for your opponents. You can play O. Ring or Spell Snare if you want, but I've been very happy with Divert.

I think if you try the list, you would come to the same conclusion as bowvamp.

_erbs_

02-13-2009, 02:49 AM

I was running a similar build but im still in the process of tweaking my deck. I was running 19 lands 3 basic lands, 3 wastelands and 6 fetch lands, with 4 stifles & 2 phyrexian dreadnought.

I've used 3 KoR in that build zero mongoose and yes his an awesome guy normally when he comes down his 4/4, i was able to have 2 9/9 KoR in play.

I removed mongoose but now im back with them, and lower the KoR count to 2 instead of 3, yes KoR is awesome but mongoose is shroud and eventhough his just 3/3 the shroud factor will win you games compared to a 9/9 that can be snuffed out or other creature kill cards.

I haven't tried KoR + wasteland only, but KoR + wasteland + stifle is good to some extent. What captain hammer posted above wasting several key lands could give you a big tempo boost.

But i encounter abit of problem there thats why i switched my deck to zero wasteland down to 18 lands from 19, back in 3 mongoose -1 kor. With only 6cantrips 4 stifle and 3 wasteland, i couldn't apply the pressure good enough or shall i say when i need them there not there and against mono colored decks that has few non basic lands the tempo delay tactic is nullified.

Sometimes i would get them (tempo cards stifles and wastelands) you have no use for them. Because it wouldn't hurt your opponent that much. I still wouldn't abandon the idea cause its really awesome in sometimes in where you could wasteland and stilfe your opponents lands and giving you the time to lock the game via counter top especially decks which has a tight mana curve, then when KoR or tarmo hits comes down its almost autopilot.

Here is the deck i was running then after several testing ive tweaked it again.

Version 1.0
Lands
4 tropical island
3 tundra
3 windswept heath
3 flooded strand
2 island
1 plains
3 wasteland
19

Creatures
4 tarmogyf
2 phyrexian dreadnought
3 knight or the reliquary
9

Spells
4 swords to plowshares
2 oblivion ring
4 force of will
3 daze
2 spell snare
3 counterbalance
1 engineered explosives
19

Draw
3 brainstorm
3 ponder
3 sensei's divinning top
4 stifle
13

Version 2.0
Lands
4 tropical island
3 tundra
3 windswept heath
4 flooded strand
2 island
1 forest
1 plains
18

Creatures
4 tarmogyf
2 phyrexian dreadnought
3 nimble mongoose
2 knight or the reliquary
11

Spells
4 swords to plowshares
2 oblivion ring
4 force of will
3 daze
2 spell snare
3 counterbalance
18

Draw
3 brainstorm
3 ponder
3 sensei's divinning top
4 stifle
13

I still haven't test version 2 so i couldn't give any inputs. But based on my testing on my deck version 1.0, almost all my creatures could be killed by anti creature cards it doesn't matter wheather they are 12/12 or 8/8, thats where i miss the mongoose. i downed the number of KoR to 2 cause im guessing he would become less effective since i droped my wasteland i'll only be depending on my 7 fetch to pump him up, but uf his still performs i would up his count to 3.

Hoping to hear comments from all

thanks

Captain Hammer

02-13-2009, 03:19 AM

almost all my creatures could be killed by anti creature cards it doesn't matter wheather they are 12/12 or 8/8, thats where i miss the mongoose.

Have you considered Divert? It protects your threats from both counterspells and removal. Your opponent would probably much rather use their removal to kill your big dudes rather than to kill a 3/3 anyways, so it's not like their StP's and Snuff Outs won't find a target just because you're playing some Mongoose.

I'm not a big fan of Dreadnought + Stifle in this deck. It just seems too random and inconsistent. Mystic Enforcer is a perfectly good finisher, is harder to kill, deals with Tombstalkers, Sea Drakes and Exalted Angels, and it doesn't require a two card combo to get into play.

I also don't like the low land count with the high curve and very low number of cantrips. EE, O. Ring, Top + CB and KoR are all fairly mana intensive. And you're only playing 18 lands + 3 Brainstorm + 3 Ponder. So I would honestly up the land count and put the wastelands back into the deck.

I'm not a big fan of EE either, but otherwise, your list looks really very good. I like it.

Ch@os

02-13-2009, 03:26 AM

You guys srsly take out mungo and want to protect your CC'2-3 Critter with "Divert"?

Captain Hammer

02-13-2009, 03:47 AM

No, Divert isn't replacing Mongoose.

Mongoose got replaced by bigger meaner threats that can actually end games by themselves and don't die to a Factory or Goyf.

Divert is there precisely because it does a lot more than just bounce back removal, (it bounces back Sinkholes and counters FoW and Counterspell and a bunch of other stuff for just one mana). And it's not replacing a threat, it's in the slot usually given to stuff like Spell Snare or Stifle.

But whatever, I'm going to bed. :rolleyes:

Terminator1k

02-13-2009, 05:03 AM

Thank you. You can always proxy them up to test them.

That's what I did till my ebay auction winnings finally arrived.

Yeah, I really like Wasteland in the deck. Mystic Enforcer always was one of my favorite beaters. But the 4cc dude never worked perfectly with a land count of 17-18.

Actually, a lot of the recent additions to the deck, Top + CB combo (esp Top), Oblivion Ring, Trygon Predator and the lower cantrip count did not function optimally with such a low land count. Wasteland lets you play a higher land count, and best of all, serves a function on the rare occasion that you get mana flooded as well.

I am especially interested in hearing your and PowrDrgn's comments upon trying out the build I posted above.

Frankly I think both you guys will be very pleased with pretty much all of the changes.

I only ask because you guys seem a lot more willing to actually try new cards rather than jumping to assumptions about them. and generally more openminded to things like dropping Mongoose, playing more powerful higher cc threats, and playing a higher land count to support these threats (that I am convinced are step forward that this deck needs to take).

Ok, I have some points on your build and I'm actually going to try them under my build and I'll let you know. On these points:

- Divert: The card is ok, the effect is ok...but I think we are running into the win-more department. The deck seems quite situational some times, in the fact that you must have the divert on hand. I think that the point you're trying to get with divert is almost covered on CB+Top, i.e. disrupting your opp spells.

- KOR: I'll give a chance to this guy as additional win condition. Synergies with fetchs, wastelands and let you go out from some B2B locks. With this in mind, I'll get rid of ponders, enable the 20land count, and design the manabase to have enough colors without running into dual land vulnerability (eight duals or more). I only wish we could get Life from the Loam in here to get the "terravore" effect. Only one question: Isn't he too much vulnerable to Tormod's Crypt? Perhaps my fear on this is related to my next point.

- Mystic Enforcer: I can see a pair on your build, because the higher cantrip count, but as you use the KOR (at least 5/5 with some lands on graveyard) I think they should move out from your deck. Can you see the deck withouth them? Another reason to get rid of him: graveyard dependancy (goyf, KOR, Mystic...)

- RWM: If we use KOR,we got rid of him? Isn't he good enough to be MD? Did you try to squeeze him like this: 4xGoyf, 2xTrygon,2xRWM,2xKOR.

- Dreadnought: I had a BGr build that featured one of these. When you move on the Dreadstill territory, you better be playing dreadstill or at least some trinket mage to get the guy. Two is not ok, nor the 4xstifle on the build. I was SB him all the time. No way for him here, sorry.

I'll try to get some KOR for my testing, or even try to proxy them and see. As soon as I have results, I'll let you know.

Captain Hammer

02-13-2009, 10:20 AM

Ok, I have some points on your build and I'm actually going to try them under my build and I'll let you know. On these points:

- Divert: The card is ok, the effect is ok...but I think we are running into the win-more department. The deck seems quite situational some times, in the fact that you must have the divert on hand. I think that the point you're trying to get with divert is almost covered on CB+Top, i.e. disrupting your opp spells.

- KOR: I'll give a chance to this guy as additional win condition. Synergies with fetchs, wastelands and let you go out from some B2B locks. With this in mind, I'll get rid of ponders, enable the 20land count, and design the manabase to have enough colors without running into dual land vulnerability (eight duals or more). I only wish we could get Life from the Loam in here to get the "terravore" effect. Only one question: Isn't he too much vulnerable to Tormod's Crypt? Perhaps my fear on this is related to my next point.

- Mystic Enforcer: I can see a pair on your build, because the higher cantrip count, but as you use the KOR (at least 5/5 with some lands on graveyard) I think they should move out from your deck. Can you see the deck withouth them? Another reason to get rid of him: graveyard dependancy (goyf, KOR, Mystic...)

- RWM: If we use KOR,we got rid of him? Isn't he good enough to be MD? Did you try to squeeze him like this: 4xGoyf, 2xTrygon,2xRWM,2xKOR.

- Dreadnought: I had a BGr build that featured one of these. When you move on the Dreadstill territory, you better be playing dreadstill or at least some trinket mage to get the guy. Two is not ok, nor the 4xstifle on the build. I was SB him all the time. No way for him here, sorry.

I'll try to get some KOR for my testing, or even try to proxy them and see. As soon as I have results, I'll let you know.

Yes, let me know what you think. I would love to get your feedback.

As for your questions...

I like Divert. It's really never been a dead card and was imo useful more often than Spell Snare was but at the same cost. That said, Divert isn't there specifically to protect your threats or anything. It's just a neat card but the deck works fine without it. If you don't want to play the card, that's totally cool. You can play Spell Snare or Oblivion Ring or Stifle or whatever card you're more comfortable with and the deck will function well regardless.

KoR is a lot less vulnerable to Crypt than Mongoose, Enforcer or even Goyf to some degree. If you get Crypted, it's not a big deal. You use KoR's ability to put two cards into your yard in just one turn. You'll probably fetch another land at sometime. So you lose one turn but still get to swing with a 5/5 that very next turn. No big deal. It's all your other threats that get hurt by Crypt. KoR on the otherhand is back to being a 5/5 within just one turn.

You sound like you want to make the deck less reliant on the yard, and you really seem to want to squeeze in Rhox War Monk.

So how about this, take my build and go...
-1 KoR
-1 Mystic Enforcer
+2 RWM

You get your wish. The deck cares even less about your yard and you got to play RWM like you wanted.

That said, I'm not that impressed with RWM. It helps versus aggro. But you already play so many big dudes, that I never really feel like I need RWM's help to beat aggro. Other than versus aggro RWM was a terribly slow card. But I guess it's up to you.

kikkofrio

02-13-2009, 10:44 AM

Yes, let me know what you think. I would love to get your feedback.

As for your questions...

I like Divert. It's really never been a dead card and was imo useful more often than Spell Snare was but at the same cost. That said, Divert isn't there specifically to protect your threats or anything. It's just a neat card but the deck works fine without it. If you don't want to play the card, that's totally cool. You can play Spell Snare or Oblivion Ring or Stifle or whatever card you're more comfortable with and the deck will function well regardless.

KoR is a lot less vulnerable to Crypt than Mongoose, Enforcer or even Goyf to some degree. If you get Crypted, it's not a big deal. You use KoR's ability to put two cards into your yard in just one turn. You'll probably fetch another land at sometime. So you lose one turn but still get to swing with a 5/5 that very next turn. No big deal. It's all your other threats that get hurt by Crypt. KoR on the otherhand is back to being a 5/5 within just one turn.

You sound like you want to make the deck less reliant on the yard, and you really seem to want to squeeze in Rhox War Monk.

So how about this, take my build and go...
-1 KoR
-1 Mystic Enforcer
+2 RWM

You get your wish. The deck cares even less about your yard and you got to play RWM like you wanted.

That said, I'm not that impressed with RWM. It helps versus aggro. But you already play so many big dudes, that I never really feel like I need RWM's help to beat aggro. Other than versus aggro RWM was a terribly slow card. But I guess it's up to you.

if u play waste...why don't u play stifle?

Something like this:

// Lands
3 [R] Tropical Island
2 [R] Tundra
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [MM] Island (1)
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [P3] Forest (2)
1 [7E] Plains (1)
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [TSB] Mystic Enforcer
2 [DIS] Trygon Predator
2 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
4 [LRW] Ponder
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [SC] Stifle

I'm trying to put Rhox here...but no more slot for it...

Captain Hammer

02-13-2009, 05:32 PM

I like the build :)

I actually did play Stifle for a while. But there were a rare few matchups where it was useless. Which is why I tried other stuff too, and settled on Divert.

Yeah Stifle works very well in the deck. So there's nothing wrong with playing it.

Smog

02-14-2009, 01:35 AM

That said, I'm not that impressed with RWM. It helps versus aggro. But you already play so many big dudes, that I never really feel like I need RWM's help to beat aggro. Other than versus aggro RWM was a terribly slow card. But I guess it's up to you.

Found out today after a full gauntlet that he is beast vs burn (obviously) but I know that dedicating slots to burn is pretty self defeating regardless.

I like RWM, but after some extended testing today (gobs, aggroloam, two storm combos, 2 landstill variants, the rock, muc, and natural order / progenitus) I see the following setup:

4 goyf
2 trygon
2 mystic enforcer
2-3 kor

as the most effective. Surprisingly, I haven't really missed mongoose... :(

Jaiminho

02-14-2009, 11:52 AM

Found out today after a full gauntlet that he is beast vs burn (obviously) but I know that dedicating slots to burn is pretty self defeating regardless.

The deck without Monk is already a beast against Burn. With infinite BEBs, Daze, Force, STP, CB and a nice clock, there's no way you are losing a match without bad luck.

Captain Hammer

02-15-2009, 01:19 AM

Thanks for trying it out Smog. My findings echo yours perfectly.

I've gone back to playing Stifle where Divert used to be and I'm loving it.

4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
2 Polluted Delta
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Island
2 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
3 Wasteland

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Trygon Predator
2 Mystic Enforcer

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Stifle

4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Diving Top

Honestly, I can't make up my mind as to which I like more.

The versatility of Divert (I found it useful and downright broken in a lot of random matchups (Zoo, Burn, Sui Black etc) where Stifle would've been dead).

or

The synergy of Stifle (the many matchups where Stifle does come in handy against, it just really works very well with the rest of the deck, whether countering storm or blowing up fetchlands).

I guess it really depends on what you expect to face.

Smog

02-15-2009, 03:02 AM

Got 61 one there Cpt Hammer. I've been testing dropping one trop for that creature setup versus dropping one KoR for that land setup. I think I like the former more, though my testing in this case has been fairly limited.

Captain Hammer

02-15-2009, 03:05 AM

Oops, forgot to update my manabase. Yeah I like the former more too. Go ahead and cut the Trop. The manabase still works just fine off of 19 land. (I actually cut a Wasteland, but that had more with me needing the Wasteland for my Doran Sui deck than anything)

Fossil4182

02-15-2009, 12:38 PM

Lands (17)
4 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
2 Tropical Islands
2 Tundra
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Island

Creatures (10)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Stoic Angel

Spells
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Diving Top
4 Swords to Plowshare
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Predict
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Back to Basics

SB
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Krosan Grip
4 Ghostly Prison
3 Meddling Mage

RD 1 vs Jank Snakes
G1: I get counter top on online turn two. He attempts to cast mana ramp cards like Reach and Explosive Vegetation which I'm able to counter by getting and Angel and Back to Basics in the top three for Counterbalance. He's only able to resolve one creature which I swords and I rode Goyf all the way to victory.
G2: (See Game One)

1-0 (2-0)

RD 2 vs Affinity
G1: I start off with land and Top and pass the turn. He drops and artifact land, Ornithopter and attempts to resolve a Drum. I dazed the drum not wanting to deal with that. I'm able to drop a Goyf which is a 3/4 thanks to Daze, a land and an artifact, but he drops an artifact land, gets a drum through and drops the Frog then passes. I topdeck in Swords, lay a land then pass. He resolves a Cranial Plating which I choose not to Force (I've played this deck before so I'm gambling he hasn't changed the deck). He equips the Ornithopter and swings which I let resolve, then he attempts to Fling it at me which I let through. (I'm at 5 life at this point). He passes the turn. Next turn I draw, lay a land, then resolve Back to Basics with him tapped out. He only as a drum out with the Frog which I swords on his upkeep. He can't generate any mana and doesn't see Enforcer or Frog so he looses to Goyf Beats.
G2: (Out 2 ORing 2 Daze In 4 Grip). He develops in a similar Fashion only this time he drops a Atog. I'm counting the number of artifacts he has and its just enough for Lethal damage (I mean it would be exactly lethal damage if he resolved Fling), he starts the sac process for Tog, but in response I Grip one of the artifacts away and was able to stave off death by two points of damage. I was able to stabilize the next turns by dropping two Goyfs and two geese and proceeding to win.

2-0 (4-0)

RD 3 vs RGW Zoo
*This was my most difficult matchup of the day
G1: He didn't see the opening hands he wanted and went to six on the draw keeping a hand with only two creatures neither of which was a one drop. He proceeded to Bolt me to the head turn one, then dropped a Watchwolf the following turn. I was able to get into control with seeing a Swords early and resolving CounterTop turn 4 with a Goyf on the table. I Dazed his Boggart Ram-Gang which could have been problematic and then proceeded to beat face with Goyf and rode Counterbalance all the way home.
G2: (Out 2 ORing 2 Daze In 4 Blue Elemental Blast)
He opens with a first turn Wildcat off of a G/R dual and my opening play was a Tundra pass. He drops the Plateau and attempts a Rancor which respond by casting StP on the Wildcat. He burns me to the face for good measure and passes. I drop a Goyf and pass the turn. He lays a land and passes the turn. The following turn Goyf is a 3/4 (Land Enchantment Instant) and I swing into him, he attempts a Char. I opt not to Daze and instead let the Goyf die and in the second main phase resolve Back to Basics with him tapped out. This play ends up being critical. He slumps back and says go. I Ponder, Fetch a basic Forest and then resolve Mongoose passing the turn. I use and Island to Brainstorm at the EoT and end up getting Threshold. He then topdecks into a Mountain which he is able to start unloading some burn to the dome, but only has a Chain lightning and a Lightning Blot and I ride the Goose to victory.

RD 4 vs Blood Funnel
*Yes, no one was expecting this and its what you might think: Blood Funnel plus Donate. Apparently this had just wrecked some decks earlier that didn't know how to handle it...whatever.
G1: He develops what looks like a B/U Landstill base all the while dropping P. Walkers and Shield Spheres... Anyway, I take my time and was able to revolve a Counterbalance with a Top in play. It got difficult because he dropped a Faire Conclave and attempted to resolve a Standstill. (I had nothing at this point because I only saw walkers and spheres and was waiting to see what the deck did [stupid on my part]) Anyway, I had to do some trickery with Top into Brainstorm putting a Daze on the library to counter Standstill, but after, I was able to resolve and Angel and cruz to Victory.
(Out 4 Daze, 2 ORing 1 B2B : In 3 Meddling Mage 4 Krosan Grips)
G2: We both engage in early counter wars over Counterbalance and I'm able to resolve it the second time. At this point, he has 5 mana, but I'm out of cards except for a Brainstorm. (I have zero creatures on the board at this point) He casts Blood Funnel which I attempt to blind counterbalance and reveal a StP. Then he attempts to Donate all be it without any other cards in hand by sacrificing one of his two creatures on the board. I Brainstorm seeing StP, Angel and...Back to Basics. I take the StP into hand, then put B2B on top :-) It gets countered and the following turn I StP his only creature leaving him with Blood Funnel on the table and no way to cast spells. I drop Angel and ride it to victory over the following turns as he's locked under Blood Funnel.

4-0 (8-0)

Out Rounds
Semi vs Zoo (2-1)
Finals Affinity (2-0)

Rather than retype the reports I'll note the games where similar though Zoo handed me the first game loss of the day and it was really close. It got to a position where I had board control and would have one the next turn unless he top decked burn... who ever thought Lightning Blot would be a good idea to print: Its kind of like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYyz8LXDCiI only not, but the feeling was there.

Anyway, since I haven't played in months I'll go for this:
Props
Jon (Zoo Player): Are matches are always Epic
Rob for stopping by and seeing everyone on V-Day and escaping the Wife
Affinity Player for making finals after just starting 3 months ago
AS for hosting the tournament
Blood Funnel Combo just dominating
Aggro Loam deck which I didn't see.

Drops:
Not playing for a few months and make stupid play mistakes

Afterwards:
I know there's been some discussion concerning Mongoose and the creature make up. I like the creature in the deck lists. However after reading the last five pages of the forums here I understand why the newer makes are just incredible. However, I would equate the creature selection, as with everything else, to your meta. At something like the Grand Prix or a much more competitive venue, the aforementioned creatures in this forum that are being suggested will serve you much better. However, in a meta that doesn't run as many "Decks to Beat" I think Goose is a much better choice. Its just "a incredible pain in the ass" to deal with. I also found Angel to be a great option for me. the Vigilance really helped out a lot of decks. The 3/4 body and the casting cost put her out of reach of most removal spells outside of StP and Snuff Out which was great. I was also pleased because it kept Zoo from sending everyone sideways and killing me. I would suggest that in metas that aren't primarily TopTeir that cards like the Goose and Angel be considered.

A couple of thoughts on the Match ups: Gaddock Teeg is great for meta's that have a disparity of deck types. Jank decks tend to run some ridiculous cards with higher mana costs and I found myself wanting something to combat that AKA Teeg. Plus, Teeg is a great choice as a SB card with some of the upper tier decks anyway. Additionally, Ghostly Prison was a waste of space. We had 15 people there and I was fearing getting matched up against some random aggro decks. Figured it would be good but alas, not so much. I've already talked about Mongoose and I liked the Angel a lot as well. Boggart Ram-Gang was fairly problematic. However, its been my experience that Zoo is a favorable matchup for UGw (or any variant for that fact) if you can get them to drop into TopDeck mode. I found that most Aggro decks (not Ichorid) tend to loose if you can bait them to over exhaust their hand and force them into drawing for threats as they don't have the ability to reload sort to speak. I boarded in BeB but those didn't necessarily help that much. So I'm going to go searching for cards to improve the Aggro match up.

Smog

02-15-2009, 01:20 PM

Grats on your finish and thanks for the report.

_erbs_

02-15-2009, 10:07 PM

Grats on your finish!
_____________________________________

With regards to wasteland vs colored mana..
Just a thought, yes its awesome come to think of it its never a dead card even against mono colored decks which uses (man lands, turbo lands, rishadans etc.) and paired with stilfe there are a great tempo boost which will give you time to setup.

But here is where wasteland doesn't fit (just for me) instead of wasting your opponents lands you'll have the option of casting an early counterbalance which for me is more potent over tempo bec. you can't apply continous pressure due to the lack of cards, if lets you have access to duress / thoughtseize running 3 waste 3-4 stifles and 4 duress / thoughseize will really give you tempo control.

Eventhough i won games with wasteland + stifle + kor or goyf or dreadnought currently im leaning towards zero wasteland for colored manas.

PowrDragn

02-16-2009, 11:24 AM

The one thing that needs to be noted is that there may not be an optimum build right now. There are several good cards that are available to this deck. There are also a ton of decks that you might run into.

It's a matter of figuring out which build you're the most comfortable with. Then figure out how you plan to play against each of your expected matchups. That's all you can do.

There are have been several builds posted and everyone is having reasonable success with them.

diffy

02-16-2009, 11:34 AM

I came in 4th in yesterday's Haßloch tournament with my newest UGw Threshold list. The same list also took 6th.
Report + explanation of some choices can be found here (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=319882#post319882).

godryk

02-16-2009, 01:50 PM

Congrats on the finish!

Just a quick question on your newest list: if you had faced Merfolk in any round, what would you have sided?

Omega

02-16-2009, 05:25 PM

Sunday, there was a tournament, 5 rounds + top 8

I managed to win against Affinity, Dragon Stompy and Landstill and get a 3-1-1 score. I lost against merfolk in the top8.

Some problems :
How to beat relic of progenitus, I faced relic MD in 2 games? To counter or not counter? I usually just let it through and try to play around it or just draw my krosan grip and blow them.

The eternal question : How to beat Landstill? Yea, everyone say it is a bad MU. But that doesn't solve the problem. I know one of the way is with card advantage (Either by gaining CA or by nullifying their CA). I managed to win my two games against landstill because my counterbalance blindly countered all his 1/2/3 cc. I would have lost otherwise. In both game, he managed to draw cards off 2-3 standstill. But my CB generated a sort of huge card advantage.

4th Sensei's divining top or not? As funny as it may sound, i drew like 0 Sensei in all my tournament (when it mattered). When i did draw into them, the game was over for me or for them.

I tried Ancestral vision : Cheap and can generate card advantage. But is terribly slow. When it resolved, the game was mine. But it rarely resolves, either to countermagic, or just because it was too slow. So AV is not a good choice.
There will be a Timewalk beta tournament this saturday 21st. I am sure the place will be crowded with landstill deck.
Is gaddock teeg enough? Especially against the variant the UWB version (playing 4 stp, 3 smother 3 edict, 4 vindicate, 0 humility, 0 wrath of god). All list in Montreal are running the DOJ and Elspeth as kill conditions (some list dont run DOJ, which is a big mistake). I was thinking about pithing needle. But i am not convinced.
Is UGW the best idea? Black can give card advantage with Dark confidant. This deck really need CA to keep up against most deck in my meta :O

How about armageddon? Alot of people seems to think it is a bad idea. But assuming a list with Werebear, geddon looks decent. In a meta that will be mainly aggro-control and control, i think it can be a decent idea. Some people are talking about Back to Basic, but i feel it is not enough. Someone played it against me when i had 1 basic island. I still won the game because i could cantrip answers and lands. Blood moon kills because it shuts down instantly the mana base. Even with 5 basic lands, a turn one Blood moon is a must counter, unless you already have the basic in hand

Oh right, MD Krosan grip was MVP all day. Its just amazing. Trygon was great too.

Would you expect Merfolk at a 25$ entry tournament with a timewalk as first prize? Im asking this because i hate losing to Merfolk and elves...

Congratz to the imaginary friend for his finish. The mongoose were useless in all games except against Landstill where they shone because of their shroud. Goyf basically do the job in every game.

Robert

Shugyosha

02-16-2009, 06:24 PM

How about armageddon? Alot of people seems to think it is a bad idea. But assuming a list with Werebear, geddon looks decent. In a meta that will be mainly aggro-control and control, i think it can be a decent idea. Some people are talking about Back to Basic, but i feel it is not enough. Someone played it against me when i had 1 basic island. I still won the game because i could cantrip answers and lands. Blood moon kills because it shuts down instantly the mana base. Even with 5 basic lands, a turn one Blood moon is a must counter, unless you already have the basic in hand

Whether Geddon, BtB or even Blood Moon (in a red build) is better depends an the boardstate. With Geddon you better have 2 creatures or Mongoose out. When I boarded Geddon I always boarded 3 Grunts in, too. With a resolved Geddon your Top/Balance and Daze are sadly pretty much dead unless you find another land or you have a spare one when casting Geddon which adds to the prerequisites to casting it.
Back to Basics is hard to set up because if you screw yourself with it too you will probably loose and you can't always afford to fetch basics in the earlygame. If you have Basics in play and it hits the table though, it has a huge impact and makes all your free counters much stronger (instead of weaker).
Some time ago Stifle worked for me, too. They hit some stuff you don't like: Wasteland/Factory activation and most important EE. So they are making your Mongoose much stronger. Stifled fetchlands also slow them down. Although they might be not the best SB cards against LS they are very flexible and good against nearly any control deck, Goblins and some other decks. There are even UGW lists that play 3 main without Wastelands. I found them rather bad main though.

_erbs_

02-16-2009, 09:00 PM

What do you thing guys is the right number of beaters for the deck ? i've been seeing several numbers for 9-10, 12, 14 & 16

On the topic of Mongoose vs Werebear
Yes werebear has more utility and a bigger beater later on, while the mongoose gives shroud which is a very bigger factor if your running a low number of beaters in your deck so you'll have finisher later on.

On the topic of Blood Moon, Geddon & B2B
Im just guessing its almost same as playing 3 wasteland with 3-4 stifles which has a bigger impact early games due to its low casting cost and quantity 6-7 cards compared to 2-3 if you use B2B, etc., im sure nobody would run 4 geddon or 4 B2B in there decks cause most of the time its a dead card unless you have established a good board position, its like a win more card for me.

Smog

02-16-2009, 09:08 PM

Would you expect Merfolk at a 25$ entry tournament with a timewalk as first prize? Im asking this because i hate losing to Merfolk and elves...

Yes. They're a deck to beat now and very competitive.

edit: as a side note, at the grand prix trial yesterday, aggro had 0 presence. No goblins, no merfolk, no aggroloam, nothing. Our team was baffled but then again, none of us were playing aggro either.

What do you thing guys is the right number of beaters for the deck ? i've been seeing several numbers for 9-10, 12, 14 & 16

10 to 11

Fossil4182

02-17-2009, 02:21 AM

Congrats on the finish!

Just a quick question on your newest list: if you had faced Merfolk in any round, what would you have sided?

I would have sided out the B2B if anything (That's assuming they aren't splashing) Maybe something like 2 Grips to keep the casting cost curve the same for CB. Those would target things like Jitte or Nought if they're running it. Maybe Mages naming some of the more problematic cards since they usually don't have removal or bounce, or to target their side board cards.

aTn

02-17-2009, 11:12 AM

On the topic of Blood Moon, Geddon & B2B
Im just guessing its almost same as playing 3 wasteland with 3-4 stifles

It is not the same. Blood Moon, Geddon and B2B have the potential to shut down in one turn your opponents board. I periodically insert 2 Geddons in my board since 2004 (Bardo - I think - came up with the plan) when my meta becomes too controlish... and it works (I even side it in for the mirror sometimes).

Running Wastelands in UGW-Threshold doesn't make sense (to me). Why ? You can't play tempo (StoP and no-burn make Johnny a slow boy). Since you have to play a more controlish build, CB-Top is almost an auto-include. Wanting to resolve CB early game, Wasteland is a potential screw-factor for your manabase (4/17 = 23.5% of your lands).

Smog

02-17-2009, 01:23 PM

Running Wastelands in UGW-Threshold doesn't make sense (to me). Why ? You can't play tempo (StoP and no-burn make Johnny a slow boy). Since you have to play a more controlish build, CB-Top is almost an auto-include. Wanting to resolve CB early game, Wasteland is a potential screw-factor for your manabase (4/17 = 23.5% of your lands).

If you run wasteland, you typically should only run 3, and then up the land count to 19ish. But I still agree with you.

aTn

02-17-2009, 08:27 PM

If you run wasteland, you typically should only run 3, and then up the land count to 19ish. But I still agree with you.

Yeah, you're right... brain fart on my part I guess...

That being said, what are your SB plans vs. Merfolk ?

kicks_422

02-17-2009, 08:42 PM

That Progenitus Threshold by Hatfield looks really good. With people maindecking Relic now, turning that 0/1 Goyf to a 10/10 god is so cool.

Jak

02-17-2009, 08:48 PM

That Progenitus Threshold by Hatfield looks really good. With people maindecking Relic now, turning that 0/1 Goyf to a 10/10 god is so cool.

Wait, where's the list? I have been waiting to see it.

kicks_422

02-17-2009, 08:59 PM

In the Top 8 decklists thread.

Alex Hatfield - Progenitus Threshold

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Wearbear
3 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor

SB:
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Krosan Grip
3 Submerge
3 Back to Basics
1 Empyrial Archangel

_erbs_

02-17-2009, 09:03 PM

Further testing proved that playing 3 wasteland in a 19 land count mana base and 4 stifles has less benefit than playing colored mana for faster mana stability and having access to spells plus 4 additional cantrips/creature control/counter magic in the stifle slot will give you more answers than getting abit of tempo boost.

The idea of playing more like canadian thresh with access swords to plowshares was nice but it lack another tempo card which has a low casting cost to work nicely.

PowrDragn

02-17-2009, 11:10 PM

I see a couple of uses for the Dryad Arbor...mainly sac-ing to the Primal Order, but does it serve any other relevant purpose tha tI'm just missing?

Smog

02-17-2009, 11:30 PM

fetch it with fetch lands. then sac it to NatOrder

Fossil4182

02-18-2009, 01:00 AM

With the Natural Order combo, is it an instance of winning more or is there a justification for running it? It would seem that UGw is doing alright as it is and doesn't need to be running combo tricks like that in order to win. I mean its a great "wow" factor and defiantly has a "win now" feel to it which can be positive, however I wonder if its necessary; if those four slots could be allocated elsewhere.

Smog

02-18-2009, 01:13 AM

It's 4 slots well devoted in my opinion. When your entire gy is game one relic'd / jotun'd away, and progen pops out of your 0/1 goyf.... yeah...

bowvamp

02-18-2009, 01:35 AM

Just a small question before deciding my view on this tech: if they fow your order, do you sac as a cost in addition aka no matter what or do you sac when you play the spell? Because it looks pretty juicy in terms of being a must-counter. Also being a sorcery makes it harder to like as you wanna be able to play it with good timing. Hard to decide tho'.

Glorfindel

02-18-2009, 03:53 AM

Yes, saccing the creature is part of the cost, not of the effect. See the Oracle text of the card:
http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?id=4307
I like the combo finish, it reminds me of Swans Thresh. Only there, it takes 7 cards of maindeck space (of which 6 cards are marginally useful on their own), here it takes only 4 cards. And it is a one-card combo.

Omega

02-18-2009, 06:59 AM

The combo looks quite interesting although i am not sure if natural order can be easily acquired -.-

Robert

Shugyosha

02-18-2009, 08:34 AM

I like the combo finish, it reminds me of Swans Thresh. Only there, it takes 7 cards of maindeck space (of which 6 cards are marginally useful on their own), here it takes only 4 cards. And it is a one-card combo.

First of all Swans and Chain of Plasma are useful on its own. Swan is still a 4 power evasion beater pitchable to FOW and all the times I played the deck Chain was thrown back at me only once. Its practically an Incinerate in all situations but the Goyfstall.

Natural Order needs a green creature. Although thats not too hard to achieve it is still a 2 card combo and Progenitus is better not on your hand (or you need a Brainstorm). With a stalled board do you sac your creature for Natural Order risking a 2:1 if your opponent has a counter?

After that your fatty can still be Wrathed, Edicted, become a 1/1 with a pretty picture under Humility etc. or you can still be raced in three turns.

Swanthresh was nice but it happens to be that a straight list is better. I don't see why Natural Order should be better. I would rather play castable creatures in these slots.

Omega

02-18-2009, 10:57 AM

The main reason to play the natural order is to be capable of "bypassing" graveyard hate (relic, crypt, LOTV).

0/1, 1/1 are not scary creatures. Obviously, you can grow them fairly quickly. But a 10-10 protection from everything can end the game, the same way Mystic Enforcer could end the game.

a lit of 4 goose, 4 goyf, 4 werebear with 1 dryad land can support this kill. You dont have to cast natural if its not needed. Also, after a crypt, ie, you can just sac the goose and search for the progenitus.

Robert

Fossil4182

02-18-2009, 11:37 AM

Alright, I'll give it a shot. Mostly because the last few times I've played, the slots I was using were dedicated to Oblivion Ring which didn't do me any good (I didn't see one the entire day) and B2B which is in the board. The list is really interesting and after the warrants presented by everyone were flushed out, I'm sold. Its more of a late game combo anyway which by that time you'll have dug enough to find FoW for protection, or at least have extra mana open for Counterbalance/Top. I'll give it a try the next time I have a go around. At worst, you can pitch the 10/10 beastie to FoW and hell, I'd be alright flipping Natural Order on the land or a Goose into a Goyf if the 10/10 is stuck in my hand without a Brainstorm in sight.

GMTemplar

02-18-2009, 11:51 AM

Any real reason to go back to using Werebear with Progenitus combo? Trygon Predator's green too and seems all-round better creature especially if you're dropping O. Rings for the combo slots.

Enigma

02-18-2009, 12:04 PM

lebarion

02-18-2009, 12:14 PM

I know Relic is causing us some problems, but I ended finding a solution to it, which is not Progenitus Combo but a split of Trygon MD and Pithing Needle in the SB.

Don't tell me it's too slow because progenitus order combo is way worse. While playing Canadian Thresh against UGW, I would laugh seeing my opponent attending to play a Natural order (2G is rare in this MU).

PM

If you're playing Canadian Thresh, I would focus on trying to resolve one of my 4 Counterbalances and do not let you play Magic from there on, not in comboing with Natural Order.
The combo is for some specific MUs, not for all of them.

Arsenal

02-18-2009, 12:24 PM

Which specific matchups are you referring to?

Adan

02-18-2009, 12:50 PM

If Relic of Progenitus is such an issue, why don't you just all go back running maindeck Needles...? O_o

Arsenal

02-18-2009, 12:52 PM

I agree. I do not see how or why, assuming this is to combat Relic/Crypt, Order + Progenitus > Pithing Needle.

However, in the context of specific matchups, I'm interested in hearing how Order + Progenitus helps. On paper, it's a 2GG two card combo that requires the sacrifice as a cost, leaving you vulnerable to a 2:1 if your opponent counters Order.

lebarion

02-18-2009, 01:27 PM

Which specific matchups are you referring to?

The combo is useful against decks packing lots of removal, like The Rock, and even Landstill (if you have counter backup, of course).

Besides, I believe the combo can be useful not only against Relic, but also against LotV and Jotun. That's why it may be better than Needle.

That said, I'm not sure the combo is the next step for UGw Thresh. But it's something to test, for sure.

aTn

02-18-2009, 01:32 PM

I'd like to ask a more general question: What are the current problems facing UGW-Threshold and how can one adress them ?

I'd say there are at least two problems currently:

1. How does on deal with the increased presence of graveyard hate (e.g. Relic of Progenitus) ?

Pithing Needle (and to a lesser extent Trygon P.) have been mentioned as possible solutions. Personally I think the Progenitus "combo" doesn't really answer the question.

2. How does one deal with the resurgence of Vial aggro decks (e.g. Merfolk) ?

I for one don't think that resolving a 10/10 when the board is swarmed with Islandwalker would change much... but I might be wrong.

If Relic of Progenitus is such an issue, why don't you just all go back running maindeck Needles...? O_o

I totally agree with this.

On paper, it's a 2GG two card combo that requires the sacrifice as a cost, leaving you vulnerable to a 2:1 if your opponent counters Order.

And with this also.

Arsenal

02-18-2009, 03:22 PM

If Relic/Crypt is that big of an issue, Krosan Grip, Pithing Needle, and Trygon Predator all seem to be suitable solutions.

I like the combo, but is it worth running in UGw Thresh? It takes up 4 spaces, and that's a lot of dedicated space for a "iffy/maybe/sort/kinda" win condition.

Someone mentioned it being helpful versus The Rock and Landstill. To the best of my knowledge, The Rock plays Edict (with discard to push it through) and Landstill plays Innocent Blood/WoG (with countermagic to push it through). It could be good in these matchups, but it could just as easily be "meh" as well.

I'm interested in hearing what this combo does for UGw Thresh that nothing else currently can.

Smog

02-18-2009, 03:53 PM

Arsenal

02-18-2009, 04:18 PM

I think the fact of the matter is, is that the 'combo' isn't your only win con. Not even close. It's just a very powerful possibility with 4 cards. You can drop a turn 2 goyf. swing for 4-5 turn three, then drop a progen in main phase 2. If the progenitus lands, that's a hell of a tempo boost. They now have a two turn clock to deal with him. And if they do, whatever, they just spent one of their global sweepers to kill one creature. Which goes back in your deck. Drop another goyf and you can do it again as soon as turn 5.

I think it's 4 slots that are at least worth trying. Dreadstill is doing very well with a 12/12 that is subject to every piece of removal out there. Progenitus makes dreadnought look like a grizzly bear.

Personally I'll be testing it in ugr up until the grand prix. I'm not saying it's amazing, but I'm all for more people not trying it and not bringing it to chicago.

I'm seeing your line of thought, but in the scenario you laid out, you seem to be not putting enough weight on the fact that you just sacced your 4/5 Goyf (Why? If it connected once, why is it not connecting again? Why are you even saccing it Order?) to play Order, only to have your Progenitus Edicted/Innocent Blooded away. You effectively tapped out, spent 1 turn + 3 cards, and have nothing to show for it; no favorable board position, nothing. And then you're proposing dropping another Goyf (assuming you have on in hand), passing, then repeating the process (assuming another Order in hand)? Really?

aTn

02-18-2009, 04:27 PM

I'm seeing your line of thought, but in the scenario you laid out, you seem to be not putting enough weight on the fact that you just sacced your 4/5 Goyf (Why? If it connected once, why is it not connecting again? Why are you even saccing it Order?) to play Order, only to have your Progenitus Edicted/Innocent Blooded away. You effectively tapped out, spent 1 turn + 3 cards, and have nothing to show for it; no favorable board position, nothing. And then you're proposing dropping another Goyf (assuming you have on in hand), passing, then repeating the process (assuming another Order in hand)? Really?

Thank you for summing up my thoughts on the subject.

I think the deck benefitted from the element of surprise; without it I don't think it'll do that good... that remains to be seen though.

Omega

02-18-2009, 05:58 PM

So first problem : Graveyard hate (mainly relic of progenitus, a realy broken card)+ pressure
Relic of progenitus is actually not that much of a problem. It is when opponent is able to resolve some treats. Because goyf is fairly easy to grow

Second problem : Landstill. Tons of removal, tons of cards advantage. One of the key card is Counterbalance. CB can nullify most of their CA and their removal.

Dreadstill, although they claim to have a positive MU against us, i felt that their lack of removal (and our STP) make it positive for us.

Other splash of Threshold : I think STP gives us an edge on the tarmogoyf war. Canadian thresh might have a positive score against us. Depending on how fast we can drop a CB

Third problem : Aggro (merfolk is more like Aggro/control). SB, i have 2-3 path to exile against them, i sometimes have Rhox War Monk too. But tribal aggro are problematic because of islandwalk and forestwalk. If aggro wouldn't have those (and to a lesser extent, the +1/1 lords), the MU wouldnt be that hard. This is why goblin is no longer a problem. All of their beast can be blocked and are destroyed by tarmogoyf. However, elves and merfolk all play about 8 lord. And evilsh champion and lord of atlantis give their beast landwalk, which is basically GG.

Forbiddian

02-18-2009, 06:12 PM

Nobody's mentioned this, but: I hope you guys don't draw Progenitus.

You have Brainstorm and some topdeck manipulation, but doesn't the fact that merely drawing it gives you a totally dead card and 3 other dead cards? A minor issue is that he shuffles back in so he might make it slightly harder to get to Threshold, but the fact that drawing it is so bad should be enough to make you seriously question its inclusion, even with 4 Brainstorm "answers." You shouldn't have to answer your own deck.

But let's talk about the actual combo: On the face of it, it seems like a REALLY gimmicky "answer" to the fact that people are strongly metagaming against Threshold and it's becoming difficult to play. It's a 2:1 combo that costs at least 2GG and probably 3GG or 3GGG to stick a 10/10 protection-from-everything-zomg on the board. In a world where you run 17 land (or 19 with 3 Wastelands) and Dazes/Stifles/Wastelands are staples? It sounds hard enough to get 2GG mainphase, let alone 3GG (to counter Daze) for a card that still takes two turns to win the game.

It sounds like this will happen:
Gimmicky Johnny/Timmy: Oh, I know, I'll use my combo to get out a 10/10 protection from everything! I'll be UNSTOPPABLE! NATURALORDERGO!
Standard Legacy Player Circa 2009: Oh, I know, I'll return an Island to my hand to win the game. Daze.
Gimmicky Johnny/Timmy: I said "go" it's too late....

Or this will happen:
Gimmicky Johnny/Timmy: Oh, I know, NATURALORDERGO!
Standard Legacy Player Circa 2009: Nice 10/10 wall that doesn't do anything because my Weenies swarm you anyway.

Relic is played in decks like Merfolk that will swarm you anyway (and Merfolk has Daze/Force of Will). How is a two turn clock that hits at earliest turn 4 that much of a threat to them?

Sounds like Threshold is getting jealous of Dreadstill, but a turn 4-5 10/10 =/= a turn 2 12/12.

aTn

02-18-2009, 07:47 PM

How is a two turn clock that hits at earliest turn 4 that much of a threat to them?

Agreed. Nitpick: Turn 3 via Werebear... but still...

Dreadstill, although they claim to have a positive MU against us, i felt that their lack of removal (and our STP) make it positive for us.

UWx-Dreadstill plays StoP and EE...

From experience, I'd say Dreadstill is pretty hard (especially the white splash). They play CB-Top, tons of other counters (Fow, Daze and Spell Snare), mana denial and Standstill for good measure of CA.

Damnosus

02-19-2009, 07:18 AM

My apologies for getting slightly off of the current topic, but I have recently started to play this deck (started off as the Der Imaginere Freund's Enlightened Tutor standard list, but I have since made some changes), and while I greatly enjoy playing thresh, one question has really been giving me pause: how does it hold up when compared to U/W/b Landstill. I mean from the little playtesting that I have been able to do (I have a mac and thus no MWS/my friends are not big on playtesting :mad: ), we appear to have a little better matchup against burn and combo (mostly due to counter/top), and sometimes landstill has problems with going to time. But is that it? The current landstill lists seem better prepared to deal with a wider variety of things than white threshold. Am I wrong in believing that threshold is more than just a meta dependent deck? Basically what I am asking is what are your (the plural your) reasons for playing white thresh versus landstill?

diffy

02-19-2009, 07:49 AM

If you had faced Merfolk in any round, what would you have sided?

-3 Daze
-1 Counterspell
-2 Trygon Predator
+3 Engineered Explosives
+3 Pithing Needle

Stifle/Waste + wanting to hit 3+ mana for Rhox War Monk and Explosives make Daze sub-par, Counterspell is just too slow and Trygon Predator doesn't have any good targets besides AEther Vial for which it is too slow anyway.
Pithing Needle comes in to nullify their main source of Card Advantage and Counter-Top dodging (AEther Vial [+ Standstill for CA]) and to hit Mutavault/Rishadan Port/Wasteland if you get into a weird situation.

First problem : Graveyard hate (mainly Relic of Progenitus, a really broken card)

Graveyard hate never did much against Threshold and still doesn't do much nowadays either: it doesn't attack your main gameplan (Counterbalance) and only slows you down marginally if it resolves anyway because you have Threshold independent beaters (Rhox War Monk, Trygon Predator, Quirion Dryad) and because a Tarmogoyf only needs 1-2 turns in order to be moderately large again.

Second problem : Landstill. Tons of removal, tons of cards advantage. One of the key card is Counterbalance. CB can nullify most of their CA and their removal.

Step 1: Drop Counterbalance
Step 2: ...
Step 3: Profit.

Since Landstill's curve got more streamlined and NQG's curve adopted more spells with a Converted Mana Cost of three, this matchup is, once again, totally decided by Counterbalance. If you additionally play Pithing Needle main, this matchup is totally winable.
If they play one of the traditional builds, that's all the more profit for you: just get a couple of Goyfs out there, hold onto a Force of Will and go for the quick win. It works more often than not.
Postboard, the matchup gets a lot easier because you gain access to Gaddock Teeg (handling Wrath of God, Humility, Elspeth Knight-Errant and Engineered Explosives), Pithing Needle (if you don't have it main) and possibly Back to Basics, but again, Counterbalance is your main road to victory. (Notice a trend? Jeesh that card is just so broken.)

Third problem : Aggro.

Your best friends here are loads of beaters: for sure Elves have 8 Lords, however, each and every one of your guys still kills every elf (sans Wren's Run Vanquisher) and lives to tell, even if that Elf is buffed by a Lord.
However, the key to winning this matchup is to not get too defensive because the tribal deck will win in the lategame: they just have way too many bomby cards (for example, Elves have Natural Order, Sylvan Messenger, Survival of the Fittest and Elvish Champion which are must handles).
This is why you should dig for Tarmogoyf/Rhox War Monk/any other beater you can find early, handle whatever could stop your rush (e.g. Wren's Run Vanquisher, Warren Weirding) and go for the quick kill. If you find a Mystic Enforcer, that's all the better.
Postboard, Engineered Explosives makes this matchup much easier by removing blockers and therewith creating tempo (e.g. killing a bunch of mana elves against Elves is game winning because it allows you to attack unhindered and cuts them off their main means of creating mana).

On the topic of Mongoose vs. Werebear
Yes Werebear has more utility and a bigger beater later on, while the mongoose gives shroud which is a very bigger factor if your running a low number of beaters in your deck so you'll have finisher later on.

Nimble Mongoose can hardly be considered a finisher - it's just too small to do anything on a non-empty board. Also, 14 creatures is nowhere near a low number of beaters.

_erbs_

02-19-2009, 08:51 PM

I've been trying the progenitus combo, and it has it merits. Its kinda addicting once you've tried it, its like your always on a rush to dig for it. It didn't suffer significant loss expect for the mana curve of 3 for countertop. i drop 1 daze, 2 oring and 1 knight of the reliquary for the 4 slots. 3 natural order for me is the right number aswell.

A slight problem i encountered during the change is the mana configuration. if your opponent controls your green mana or kills werebear you'll find it very hard to cast the double green, but besides thats its a very strong game breaker.

The deck i used was:
4 tropical island
3 tundra
4 flooded strand
3 windswept heath
2 island
1 plains
1 forest
18

3 werebear
4 tarmogoyf
4 nimble mongoose
1 progenitus
12

4 swords to plowshares
1 path to exile
4 force of will
3 daze
4 counterbalance
3 natural order
19

4 brainstorm
4 ponder
3 sensei's divinning top
11

I will still further test it, i was sometimes thinking of changing the bear to somewhere along the lines of (noble heirarch, birds of paradise, llanowar elves, or wall of roots) for faster mana deployment but the 2 curve for counterbalance would be weakened

Seriously

02-19-2009, 09:27 PM

sauce

02-19-2009, 09:51 PM

sure, it may be kind of cool now, cause its new. but once everyone starts playing it, Im sure the legacy crowd will find proper ways of dealing with it.

i hope many people play this combo so i can crush them with a daze. :)

Omega

02-20-2009, 12:00 AM

Enigma

02-20-2009, 09:09 AM

1st Trygon MD
2nd Pithing Needle MD

It will stop their Vial.

3rd Explosives force backup is a must.

4th Keeping a goyf on the table + swording Atlantis(bc of Islanwalk) and Reejerey(bc of tap effect).

But as a sideboard option. It's a good question. Is rhox war monk efficient against them? Or PtE would be better?

PM

Shugyosha

02-20-2009, 09:55 AM

Tournament this saturday : I am expecting at least 10+ landstill (good players too).

How to modify MD to face such a treat? I already included 2 pithing needle and it greatly helps by slowing them down. CB happens to be wonderful too. And MD krosan grip seems like a good idea.

How to face Merfolk : HOW? Its a bad MU. How to make it better?

As Enigma said, Needle MD is quite solid against both decks as Merfolk nowadays also run Relic of Progenitus MD.

You could also play the Back to Basics build (2 BtB or 1 and 1 Tutor) against Landstill. Gaddock Teeg SB is also quite solid against Landstill and some other decks like Combo.

Against swarm aggro Dueling Grounds is very good. especially against Merfolk, as they won't be able to remove it permanently unless they splash green. Even if they Grip it they will certainly loose momentum and the Grip won't go on your Balance/Top/Needle.
A much broader answer is creature Stealing via Shackles or Threads. You don't need many Islands in play to make Shackles effective against Merfolk.

aTn

02-20-2009, 10:07 AM

About the UWx-Landstill MU:

I have been testing this match-up a lot since a week and I have to say the even with Needles and Trygon MD (and O. Ring) and G. Teeg and more Needles in the SB, it's a very tough MU. Elspeth is my main problem. All our answers to it (aside from countering it) don't deal with it permanently. Yes Needle and O.Ring get rid of it temporarily, but I've lost a lot of games with an active Needle or O. Ring on Elspeth only to have my opponent remove said cards and win. UGW-Threshold doesn't pack that much pressure as to make these cards (Needle, O. Ring, Teeg) real solutions to that damned planeswalker... sadly I can't see any other solution (oh, and Teeg is good but then again, it's only a temporary solution).

I will be attending the same tournament as Omega, and since I expect a lot of control in the form of Landstill variants, decent amounts of swarm aggro (Merfolk) and a bit of Faerie-Dragon Stompy, I don't think I'll play UGW-Threshold.

Ciberon

02-20-2009, 05:11 PM

Maybe just use more counterspells instead of that "MU package", then?

tyrcho

02-21-2009, 03:12 PM

A short tournament (30p, 6 rounds, no top8) report with this list:

// Lands
3 [R] Tropical Island
3 [U] Tundra
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [P3] Island (3)
1 [TSP] Forest (1)
1 [9E] Plains (2)
4 [ON] Windswept Heath

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [TSB] Mystic Enforcer
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
2 [DIS] Trygon Predator

// Spells
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [NE] Daze
3 [CS] Counterbalance
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
1 [10E] Pithing Needle
1 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
1 [4E] Control Magic

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [BOK] Threads of Disloyalty
SB: 2 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 1 [MI] Mind Harness
SB: 4 [5E] Hydroblast
SB: 1 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 [US] Back to Basics

I wanted to play 2 Rhox War Monk but couldn't get them in time so the 18th land (tundra) and Control Magic were played in place.

The meta in my area is mostly aggro/aggro-control, few combo was expected.

R1 : Rémi with (almost) mono red goblins
An old player who took its GP list from 2007.
G1 : he mulls to 5 to get a land, gets its vial dazed turn 1, and concedes against double tarmogoyf when he fails to find a second land.
G2 : I side out countertop, control magic for BeB, meddling mage.
He gets lackey turn 1, I BeB it my turn, and swarm him with tarmo/goose.
Bad luck for him ...

R2 : my friend Laurent (soon) with Ugbw countertop thresh / baseruption.
G1 After a mulligan I get a fast top. He plays confidant, I sword. I play a tarmogoyf. Then he has counterbalance, I FoW, he FoW back. EOT I play enlightened, he reveals top. From then it's too hard to break the lock and he has enough time to find his own tarmo to block and wins the card advantage war.
G2 is almost the same, I counter a confidant, then he assembles countertop before me and has a jotun grunt when we both have about 10 cards in yard.
Too many cards to handle in this matchup, the black splash is strong in the mirror, and mongoose is weak.

R3 : Pierre with white stax
G1 I have no idea what he plays, he has plains, mishra and attacks. I play 1 or 2 tarmo and assemble countertop. He plays crucible, I tutor an oblivion ring to counter. He has a maze of ith to slow me. Then a chalice @1. I get him down to 6. He gets double mishra and plays crucible with 1 mana up. I think my top card is daze (bad memory) and top to get it ... mistake. So I can't replay top and he is able to animate mishra and block. However the third tarmo is too much to handle.
G2 I side meddling, back to basics (he has few plains), tormod, krosan for swords, counterbalance, control magic. I should have gotten also gaddock.
He gets a turn 1 sphere of resistance which I choose not to force. I played about 5 lands in 5 turns while he's a bit screwed, and manage to dig a trygon predator turn 4. I can daze or force his bombs even with sphere and he concedes when I get tarmogoyf online after gripping his runed halo on trygon.
A bit lucky again.

R4 is against my long time partner and friend Quentin who plays enchantress, which I know amost by heart.
G1 He mulligans as almost always when we play together :)
He keeps a slow hand with a single draw effect which gets countered. Turn 3 or 4 I have countertop AND trygon so the game ends fast.
G2 I Force a turn 2 enchantress. He gets an aura of silence to my top and tarmogoyf. He gets down to 5, manages a confinment and argothian. I grip the confinment so he has to block with argothian to survive. Then he makes a mistake, playing a presence instead of city of solitude. I let it go, force the runed halo and kill him.

R5 : Jean-Francois with aggro elves (mono G).
I saw his deck and am very worried of his 8 forestwalk lords
G1 he gets a very strong start with 3 creatures and a vial in 4 turns. I kept a hand I probably should have mulliganned which had about 2 tarmo, 2 mongoose and lands, cantrips. His last creature is a lord and forestwalk kills me before I did anything relevant.
G2 He kept a hand with 1 forest and 2 vials. I daze both and he dies before seeing another land.
G3 He starts with vial, I answer with needle. Then he has a Jitte which I let go. I counter or swords his first creatures, assemble countertop, and prevent him from having any creature on table.
He had no mana elves, so keeping vial off the table is as important as always.

R6, Mathieu with a homebrew deck : a mix between rock (deed, tarmo, finks to fight the aggro meta, explosives, removal) and aggro loam (cycle lands, loam) with 4 demigods of revenge.
G1 he gets deckchecked and game loss because he messed up his list
We get to side, I don't know really well his deck and get in almost everything, siding out countertop, swords.
G2 He answers all my threats with explosives and deeds and kills me with tarmogoyf.
G3 I remove gaddock since he seems not to play big spells (no worm harvest)
Again, we trade creatures and removal for a long time. I probably misplayed my mind harness. I had a tarmogoyf, he had a kitchen finks with a marker and a full spike feeder. I was worried of the combo which would gain him much life next turn, so I harnessed the spike to attack with tarmo. Obivously he sacced the spike so my harness does nothing. Then again he has answers, I play 3 forces in total so I m a bit low on cards. He starts loaming and cycling a lot but has nothing relevant to attack. I get a back to basics when he's almost alltapped. He only has 2 basics in the deck but manages to find them with diamond and loam.I get a mongoose and bash him down to 5. We are now in the additionnal turns, I probably can't kill him missing one turn. On the 4th turn, with 50 cards in graveyard (and 3 dredged demigod), he plays his fourth demigod and attacks me for 20. Nice finish !
Overall he's deck was quite strong (he finished 2nd, losing only to enchantress on mana death) and a hard matchup for thresh.

I was really pleased with this version of the deck. The enlightened toolbox was usefull. I did not miss the war monks since I did not face real aggro/burn decks (or they were unlucky enough), but I will get them for next time.

Badmoonz

02-22-2009, 04:33 PM

Hello, this is my first post, but I've been lurking around here for awhile. I played in a 44 person event this past Saturday (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12174). I ended up at 12th place with a 4-2 record. I have been playing Legacy for only about half a year and my deck has been mostly the same the whole way through. I used to fit in Stifle-Nought, but it was never a good fit for the deck.

I've found Ugw Thresh is a perfect home for the Progenitus combo. The deck plays as it did pre-conflux, but now also has an alternate win condition in Progenitus. Not as important but noteworthy, Natural Order occasionally helped achieve threshold. Out of 12 games that I played, I cast the combo three times, each cast being protected by countermagic when needed.

I am really happy with the deck at this point. Mana, creatures, and draw spells all seem to fit really well. The sideboard, however, is in need of some work. I want to get back to 4 Tormod's Crypts or Relics of Progenitus. Here is what I used:

///Deck///
3 Flooded Stand
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Windswept Heath

4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Mystic Enforcer
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Werebear

3 Natural Order
1 Progenitus

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares

3 Counterbalance
3 Sensie Divining Top

///Sideboard///
3 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Counterbalance
1 Elephant Grass
3 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
2 Threads of Disloyalty
1 Trygon Predator
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wash Out

For anyone that may be interested in details:

Round 1 vs Ugw Threshold (with wasteland and o-ring) 1-0
Game 1: I cast an early Mongoose and sit on it. I hold out till turn 5 and cast Natural Order. I had Force of Will ready in my hand but Natural Order was good. My opponent scoops.
Game 2: I draw into two Werebear a Mongoose and a Goyf. He gets counterbalance out and the next turn I play Trygon Predator. Eventually I get an Enforcer out and win with flying creatures.

Round 2 vs Ichorid 1-1
Game 1: A combination of my opponent playing well, and myself not having much experience with Ichorid probably made this an easier win for my opponent. I was on the ropes the entire game, and I'm still not entirely sure how I should have played the match.
Game 2: My opening hand had Tormod's crypt but no land, so I mulligan to 6. For a few turns I would have been in good shape if I had drawn a Tormod's Crypt, but otherwise he was in control and had me on a fast clock.

Round 3 vs Goblins 2-1
Game 1: I draw Progenitus and Natural Order as well as several other beaters. I end up casting two Natural Orders in this game for both of my Mystic Enforcers. I later pitch Progenitus to Force of WIll.
Game 2: I get the counter-top engine online quick and get a Werebear into play. My opponent misplayed his Mogg Fanatic and tried to respond to Natural Order by killing my only creature in play. I only mention this because the game could have gone either way at that point, but I still had a fair amount of draw cards in my hand. Progenitus comes out and wins the game.

Round 4 vs Ad Nauseam Tendrils 2-2
Game 1: My opponent plays a first turn Duress and knocks out a Brainstorm. I draw into counterbalnce, but otherwise have no other countermagic in my hand. He goes off on turn three and counterbalance misses twice.
Game 2: I kept a hand with two Force of wills in it but nothing else. He plays a first turn Xantid Swarm which I did not counter. He goes off on turn 2 after attacking with the Xantid Swarm and I lose.

Round 5 vs Aluren Elves 3-2
Game 1: I get a Werebear and Mongoose into play early and he spends the first two turns playing mana elves and then Aluren with two Imperious Perfects behind it. I luckily Top into two Swords to Plowshares which made for a very unfavorable attack for him. Left with only a mana elf left I attack to win.
Game 2: Almost the same thing happened in game two. A Swords to Plowshares plus a couple of blocks make for a bad combat step for him. I allowed him to play a turn two Choke which turned out to be the right choice. (I had two Daze, a Forest, and a Fetchland in my hand). Daze worked out well to recycle my Tropical Island. Choke slowed me down, but wasn't a hinderance.

Round 6 vs Ugw Threshold (with Survival of the Fitest and Squee) 4-2
Game 1: My opponent spends most of the game playing draw effects. I get a Mongoose, Werebear, and Enforcer into play and start beating despite not having threshold. Turn 7 I cast Natural Order with Force of Will for in hand for protection, but I didn't need it. My opponent scoops.
Game 2: My opponent sits on one land for several turns. It takes me a little bit longer to get going too, but I manage to Swords to Plowshares his threats and eventually beat down with Werebear and Mongoose. At one point late in the game I had drawn Progenitus, and then used it to pitch to Force of Will.

undone

02-23-2009, 08:30 AM

Its been a while since I have played white thresh but after reading through some I have some questions.

1) Natural order... Really? Really? A janky two card combo which helps 0 matchups and opens you up for a 2 for 1.

2) Is knight of relequary awsome or bust?

3) No goose, no shoes, not threshold. Sorry I really feel like cutting goose makes the deck not threshold any more but morphs it into its own aggro control varient, why isnt goose good enough for the average metagame it never dies unless the opponent can resolve huge fat and stick it.

4) Here is my modified nonbasic inquisition list

1 Mystic Enforcer
1 Control magic
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Predict
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Ponder
1 Portent
2 Back to Basics
4 Counterbalance
1 Oblivion Ring
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
2 Island
1 Plains
2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
4 Windswept Heath

SB
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Hydroblast
2 Krosan Grip
1 Back to Basics
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Open slots

Its a modified old list but BTB is such a house it automaticaly wins like 1/3rd of your games by itself.

Smog

02-23-2009, 05:32 PM

2) Is knight of relequary awsome or bust?

She's amazing. Awesome synergy. She nearly always comes down as a 5 or 6.

undone

02-25-2009, 09:44 AM

What about natural order proeverything is that good as well? I have a feeling its a gimmic because its worse than every other good combo still out there the only differance is its able to be used in an existing good deck.

Also I have been loving 4 basics and X back to basics because you win so many games on the back of "Island, fetch a plains fetch a forest force your guy, BTB go."

Smog

02-25-2009, 11:44 AM

I think Natural Order is worth testing, but I don't think it's going to last.

risethehandsofreason

02-25-2009, 05:51 PM

I have also been running 2-3 Back to Basics main and it has won or substantially continubted to a win in a large percentage of my games. Although there is, of course, a trade off, in that I lose 2-3 other spells, I have been very happy with the Back to Basics strategy (running 4 basics, 4 duals and 9 fetches) and I have performed well at tournaments and in testing.

I played against two GRb Aggro Loam decks (one discard-based and one Chalice-based) and one UB Faerie deck at a 25(ish)-person tournament on Monday, and the combination of Back to Basics (2 mainboard) and Counter-Top won me each match quite well. I ended up in 4th place.

With respect to the Aggro Loam matchups, I found a 2-2 sideboard split between Jotun Grunt and Tormod's Crypt to be very effective. I like the ability to quickly solve the graveyard problem with Crypt and move into a constant graveyard control strategy with Grunt.

Anarky87

02-25-2009, 08:38 PM

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trygon Predator
1 Mystic Enforcer
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Sense's Divining Top
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Vedalken Shackles
2 Krosan Grip

4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra

That's what I've been running lately with some good results. Grip MD catches more than a few people off guard. Shackle eats little fishies.

Adan

03-01-2009, 03:08 AM

I do not intend to create any hypes, but I played a small local tournament yesterday (28 ppl) and finished 5-0 (10-0 in games) with Progenitus Thresh.

My matchups were TES, UWb Fish, Elfball, Affinity and BWG Rock.

I now see Natural Order's role in this deck: Just imagine they were 3 Mystic Enforcers (and playing 3 Mystic Enforcers is quite oldschool). But you don't get a 6/6 Flyer but the 10/10 Hydra God or the Empyrial Archangel (in exchange you "waste" 1 maindeck slot to have access to such a brute force).

It helped me to win faster against TES because I was only beating him with a whimsy 1/1 Goose while having CB-Top assembled.
Against Fish it was gg, but g2 he also had some 3 Perishs which would have bought him some time, but he did not draw them.

Against Elfball I simply Counterbalance-Top-Goyf'ed. Affinity was won by triple Goyf beatdown and a mistake by him, trading a Master of Etherium unnecessarily with my Goyf.

Against Rock I won the first game very quickly as he didn't saw Natural Order.
He annoyed me to death with Deeds and Vindicates on my Counterbalances, but I reassembles CB-Top and thus I was safe to go for EOT Dryad Arbor and then Natural Order.
Game 2 we both had an equal amount of Goyfs and an equal amount of a Geese-Kitchen Finks-Werebear-Witness mixture and the game maks absolutely no progress as we both draw nothing. But that was ok, I was just sitting there and could dig for the Nat.Order with my Top while he was throwing his Thoughtseizes at me like a paranoid.
I eventually find a Natural Order and it's over.

This deck was a hell of fun to play, but even though I won some games with Natural Order, it's questionable to me whether it makes sense.
I still can't refuse that it was a hell of fun to play it, seing all those "WTF?!"-expressions on my opponents faces, owning people with huge creatures... I would say it was the funniest Threshold I've played so far.

My maindeck is the same as ObFreely's (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23413) but with a different sideboard which is as follows:

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [ALA] Empyrial Archangel
SB: 3 [NE] Submerge
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 [CS] Jotun Grunt
SB: 4 [B] Blue Elemental Blast

diffy

03-02-2009, 01:37 PM

I just top8ed this month's Iserlohn event (sadly only 57 players) with NQG/w, coming in seventh, with a record of 4-1-1.
In the process, I beat Fish, GBW Survival and Aggro Loam (twice). I lost against my team mate's Fiery Pandaburst, the draw resulted from my last rounds Landstill opponent saving himself to the time-out.
A more detailed report is posted here (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=324495#post324495).
I played last month's list (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12807) with the following changes:
-1 Island
-1 Mystic Enforcer
+1 Tropical Island
+1 Nantuko Monastery
All the changes are motivated by me having experienced some slight manabase problems lately.
As always, the list was incredibly solid. Nantuko Monastery was nothing spectacular but solid nevertheless, turning the one hand I had it in into a keeper. Werebear has proven himself worthy of the slots once again: taping for mana in the earlygame and a bigger body late (4/4 is just so much more relevant than 3/3, clock and blocking wise) is just so much better than Nimble Mongoose's shroud, especially in a build with 7 cards that cost 3 (which is total awesome for and against Counterbalance, by the way).

3) No goose, no shoes, not threshold. Sorry I really feel like cutting goose makes the deck not threshold any more but morphs it into its own aggro control varient, why isn't goose good enough for the average metagame it never dies unless the opponent can resolve huge fat and stick it.

First of all, I think we can all agree on the fact that Nimble Mongoose has been diminishing returns since quite some time now: all non-utility creatures out there are at least equal in size if not much bigger making it a bad blocker (trading is not great when you want to play the control role) and a bad attacker (since you can't race anything and/or your attack dies to any blocker).
People often criticize how cutting Nimble Mongoose makes your curve less smooth. In absolute terms, this is correct. However, you have to keep in mind that, although you can drop Nimble Mongoose early which does smooth out your curve, its impact on the board is so negligible that you might as well not have dropped it: most of the time Nimble Mongoose is just going to watch how real creatures (i.e. anything but Nimble Mongooses and/or utility creatures like Dark Confidant) walk past it, even in the earlygame (everything is bigger than an un-threshed Mongoose). If your opponent is off to a slow start, Mongoose is going to get in for an early 1-4 damage, grand maximum - which is rather negligible too (compare it to one Goyf swing or note that it compares to the amount of damage you're going to take from fetches/Force of Will - and everyone is pretty much set on the fact that this amount of damage is totally negligible against anything but pure aggro [which is exactly where Nimble Mongoose is not going to turn sideways anyway]). This is even more true because modern builds are extremely slow at reaching Threshold... and by the time you reach Threshold, Nimble Mongoose is not going to do much either because you're that far into the game that real creatures have entered play.
Also, with regards to streamlining the curve, cutting as many one mana spells as you can afford to do without seriously damaging the deck improves your ability to fight through some of the most devastating hate out there - Chalice of the Void - which is awesome: being able to ignore hate you formerly had to address with your very limited amount of solutions by simple deck-building measures creates a form of virtual card advantage for you - you have effectively reduced the amount of threats your opponent has, allowing you to focus on any other threats he has in that matchup. More wins are sure to ensue as you can now focus your limited array of solutions on a less wide variety of threats meaning that in absolute terms you have just 'gained' solutions. The same logic applies to adding off colour basics to the deck: although they may create some theoretical problems and inconsistencies, they are worth it because they allow you to ignore hate (in this case recurring Wastelands and Blood Moon/Back to Basics) which you formerly had to address in order not to loose. This, again, leads to more wins.
On that same train of thought, cutting Nimble Mongoose for other non cmc1 cards also improves your main game-plan: Counterbalance. There are just not that many one mana cards out there that you want to or need to counter - it's the 2 and 3 mana slots you have to focus on because that's what your opponents real threats are going to cost. Therefore you want to max out on the amount of cards you play in those slots in order to be able to semi-reliably hit them blindly and in order to make sure that Brainstorm/Ponder/Sensei's Divining Top let you down as seldom as possible. I've seen lists with as little as 12 cards in the cmc2 slot and I can only say that playing such a list is complete folly: with a Counterbalance on the table you only have 11 cards at cmc2 left in your library meaning that you are in no way guaranteed to hit said cost, ever. Even if you have access to a cantrip and/or SdT. This greatly diminishes the power of Counterbalance and leads to less wins.
Another point I'd like to address is that I often hear people over-stressing Nimble Mongoose's shroud ability. For sure you can't handle that little sucker with spot removal, however, you don't have/want to handle it with spot-removal anyway: Nimble Mongoose is just, at no point in the game, relevant enough to 'waste' a spot-removal on it (i.e. you never want to go 1for1 just in order to get rid of a Mongoose). You can't handle it, but you don't have to do so either.

Damnosus

03-02-2009, 03:29 PM

Mantis

03-03-2009, 10:56 AM

Top 5 strongest cards ever printed:
1: Ancestral Recall
2. Black Lotus
3. Yawgmoth's Will
4. Tinker
5. Mishra's Workshop

You know why Natural Order is so good? Because it's friggin' Tinker man. And you get to run 3. Three copies of Tinker, holy Honolulu batman.

@Forbiddian:
Have you ever played Vintage?
Timmy Vintage player; W00T I'll play my Tink0r for Darksteel Colossus.
'Modern Legacy player 2009'; 11 indestructible is so danger of cool things, but I guess I lose this game to it. RANDOM! And last week I also lost to a Dreadnought Stifle, boy that was random too. You just got lucky n00b.

Basically, the reasoning that applies to Tinker, also applies to Natural Order. It's not the prefered method of kill as it can be hard to pull off, but it can just win you games where you are way behind on board position and/or handsize. Imagine a Counterbalance/Top lock on the other side of the table, normal UGW Thresh decks just lose to that. Natural Order still gives you a very realistic shot at pulling out that game. Having an 'Oops, I win' factor is just a really strong asset to have of a deck. It also helps you plow through any random matchups you might find in the earlier games of a tournament. At the same time, it will hardly ever cost you a game as the core of the deck is still a solid UGW Thresh build and Counterbalance/Top or Goyf still wins a bazillion games.

Also, you hardly open yourself up for 2 for 1's. This combo opens itself up way less than Dreadnought Stifle does which is exposed to StP and Kro Grip and that deck is one of the top performing decks the past year. Natural Order is just exposed to ehh, Force of Will? Just like EVERY card in Legacy. What else? Wrath of God, Counterspell? Yeah, I don't think so either. Daze

If Progenitus is stranded in your hand it pitches to FoW and yes you can shuffle it back with Brainstorm or just not draw it thanks to Top and Ponder.

Adan

03-03-2009, 12:39 PM

Yo, I have played Progenitus Thresh at Mannheim, but I can say that Natural Order simply can't be compared to Tinker in several points:

1. It's SLOW AND CLUNKY! (this is relativized by the raw power it provides, ok)
2. You need green creatures which restricts the amount of decks in whcih you can play it.
3. You already need a boardposition/situation which is already slightly in your favor. Nat.Order for Progenitus does not save your ass when you will get beaten up by... let's say 7 Goblins or 12 Elves...

And now let's think again why Tinker is so powerful in Vintage:

1) Everyone - w/o any exception but Ichorid - plays SoLoMoxenCryptVault and maybe Chalice of the Void or Null Rod.
They can always win in a retarded manner via Tinker. True.

2) BUT in Vintage, you don't find much Aggro or removal in general. Just a few 1-2 bounce spells in a fist full of decks.

3) Tinker can be resolved 1st Turn and the acceleration serve as sac outlet here. And now compare the Moxen to Llanowar/Fyndhorn Elves, Noble Hierarch or Werebear. They are all far worse than Moxen.

MEATROCKET

03-03-2009, 12:47 PM

I'll admit that I have little experience with Thresh variants, but Mantis has a point. With Brainstorm and Ponder restricted, Vintage players have even less answers than Legacy players for a drawn "dead" Darksteel Colossus (Progenitus). Yet Tinker -> DSC remains a huge game-swinging play in all the top decks packing it. Saying that Daze (or any counterspell) effectively nullifies/2-for-1s this strategy is foolish.

But it's not entirely a fair comparison. Tinker gets more than just DSC/Sundering Titan/Inkwell Leviathan/Ebony Rhino/Random large robot; Tinker gets the game-ending Voltaic Key/Time Vault, or the Grindstone you need, or the Crucible to lock your opponent out, all at the sacrifice of a mox or a Mana Crypt that's killing you. Natural Order doesn't have this quality about it. I'm not sure you will want to ever sac a Goyf to get...another Goyf, or a Goose or Bear. Your main target is the big 10/10 Globetrotter and you sac one of your main dudes for it. Dryad Arbor simplifies this a bit, but I'm not sure I agree with that play.

My point is that I think a lot of Legacy players overlook the impact a risky Natural Order can have because they aren't used to that kind of play in the format. It's not as nice as Tinker -> DSC of course, but if you have a counter to back it up (as players who play Tinker should), the "oops I win" factor is huge. I'll admit that I really don't know if Natural Order -> Progenitus is a good fit in this deck or other Thresh variants or any other Legacy deck, but it's not fair to say "Daze lol gg" and just dismiss it.

Yo, I have played Progenitus Thresh at Mannheim, but I can say that Natural Order simply can't be compared to Tinker in several points:

1. It's SLOW AND CLUNKY! (this is relativized by the raw power it provides, ok)
2. You need green creatures which restricts the amount of decks in whcih you can play it.
3. You already need a boardposition/situation which is already slightly in your favor. Nat.Order for Progenitus does not save your ass when you will get beaten up by... let's say 7 Goblins or 12 Elves...

1. There's no denying that. It is slow and clunky. But I don't think anyone expects or even wants to try to get NO -> Prog online as soon as possible.
2. Agreed, which is why it shouldn't be crammed into every deck with Forests. This is very different than Tinker, where Tinker+DSC goes in any deck playing Mana Drain, and decks that don't play Drain (lol).
3. Agreed, but that's true for almost any card other than a sweeper. If your opponent is in that position - in any format - they deserve to win.

And now let's think again why Tinker is so powerful in Vintage:

1) Everyone - w/o any exception but Ichorid - plays SoLoMoxenCryptVault and maybe Chalice of the Void or Null Rod.
They can always win in a retarded manner via Tinker. True.

2) BUT in Vintage, you don't find much Aggro or removal in general. Just a few 1-2 bounce spells in a fist full of decks.

3) Tinker can be resolved 1st Turn and the acceleration serve as sac outlet here. And now compare the Moxen to Llanowar/Fyndhorn Elves, Noble Hierarch or Werebear. They are all far worse than Moxen.

1. Yep, Tinker is busted, and Vintage is full of cheap artifact acceleration. But I don't think that's what makes Tinker so good...(more later)
2. The bounce spells and removal are in the decks largely because of Tinker and are usually very tutorable. Every deck needs an answer to the Big Guy. Bounce and removal, short of Wrath effects, doesn't do anything to Progenitus.
3. First turn Tinker can be a strong play, but I don't like it and I don't think it's as good as it looks. It either wins the game or it loses (granted it just wrecks some decks). A bounce spell screws you, as does a FoW. Tinker's real strength, I think, is (1) when it's used as a plan B and (2) because of the large number of stupidly powerful artifacts available as a target in Vintage (which is where Natural Order fails to compare). "Tezzeret resolve? No? Damn. What about Demonic Tutor? Damn. Now that you're out of counters...what about Tinker?" I know, unlikely..right? My point is that Natural Order doesn't have to be an explosive turn 1-4 play to win.

I really don't know if NO -> Prog is good yet, but I do think it's a comparable play to Tinker -> DSC, but not necessarily that Natural Order is comparable to Tinker. So I see NO as a very niche card which nobody has probably found its best use yet.

Smog

03-04-2009, 10:57 AM

Not to change the topic off my pet card, but does anyone have experience playing against Ichorid?

Virtually no one plays the deck in my area, and I've played against it maybe a total of three times ever. Anyone have any recomendations for the matchup pre or post board? However, if the MU is a lost cause without devoting a bunch of SB cards to it, I just won't worry about it.

Shugyosha

03-04-2009, 11:12 AM

You can win against Ichorid with a good mix of early Tarmogoyfs, Swords, a counter and mediocre to bad Dredges.

Good thing is that Jotun Grunt and Gaddock Teeg which are usually in the SB for other reasons are quite nice against them. Still you can get simply steamrolled before you can do anything. This weekend I won the first game against Ichorid by simply dropping 4 beaters (2 Goyf, 2 RWM) in five rounds and lost both games with SB although I had 3 Grunt, 3 Teeg, 2 Explosives, 3 Needle after boarding.

Smog

03-04-2009, 11:19 AM

With so many dredge / flashback options, what are the strongest needle choices typically? Their biggest dredgers?

diffy

03-04-2009, 11:22 AM

With so many dredge / flashback options, what are the strongest needle choices typically? Their biggest dredgers?

Flashback is an alternative casting cost, Dredge is a replacement effect - you can't Needle either one.
Needle is usually played on Cephalid Coliseum so that their Slow Dredge Plan (also called DDD for Draw, Discard, Dredge) looses a lot of bustedness. If they don't go into DDD-mode, they risk walking their stuff into Force of Will and Daze which will then buy you aeons if they don't have the absolutely busted hand with numerous enablers. Most players won't/shouldn't be risking this which makes Needle somewhat effective although still not great.

Does anyone have experience playing against Ichorid?

I answered a similar question, among others, recently in a PM so that I'm just going to copy/paste what I wrote over there - in fact, all of the questions the user (cane) came up with were something I thought more people would be asking themselves so that I'll just post the entire PM:

What I was wondering about, your sideboard seems to lack any graveyard hate. I can understand you took the Ichorid gambit and just thought, I'll simply lose to that, and count on everyone else to pack relics and the likes so that Ichorid won't make it to the top tables. But what about loam, do you solely rely on counterbalance?
I agree, every tournament match I won against loam was due to CB, but I can't help to think there should be more outs.

You're pretty much dead right on the Ichorid issue: there's no way you're winning this matchup without dedicating 8+ slots to it. As graveyard hate isn't that important in Legacy right now (against NQG you'd rather have answers to Counterbalance, same against ITF etc.), those anti-Ichorid slots will be occupied with rather narrow cards which means weakening your other matchups... and even if you're dedicating a huge amount of slots to the Ichorid matchup, you're not guaranteed to win it anyway: you're pretty much sure to loose the first game and game 3 will be another uphill battle as you're going to face tailor-made hate-hate.
On top of this, Ichorid isn't really worth the attention too: the deck only sees very limited play and is only rarely found at the top tables due to its inherent inconsistency and due to many people still packing hate for it.
If you face Ichorid later in a tournament, I can only suggest to try and talk the guy into a draw. If that doesn't work, feel free to concede and get some pizza/air/drink and/or take a smoking break if that is more to your liking - the frustration you spare yourself and the increased ability to focus in the last few rounds due to the break will more than make up for that one loss. If you aren't one of those guys whose ability to focus suffers after 5h+ in a closed room filled with a bunch of geeks, deprived of food and drink, feel free to take your chances, you'd be boarding something along the lines of
-1 Counterspell
-1 Nantuko Monastery
-2 Oblivion Ring
-1 Sensei's Divining Top
-1 Werebear
If you think that they left Dread Return in (i.e. you're sitting across a bad player), in come
+3 Gaddock Teeg
If your opponent looked more competent, in come
+3 Pithing Needle (Cephalid Coliseum)
Against any opponent, this is fix:
+3 Engineered Explosives
Then, pray. Pray that Ichorid proves that it's an inconsistent pile exactly in that round.
If you have some Jotun Grunts in your sideboard, they'll obviously come in too - they are too slow to be more than a nuisance for the Ichorid player most of the time though.

As for the Aggro Loam matchup, it is a total joke. I currently am 9-0 (18:3, if I recall correctly) in tournament games against Aggro Loam, most of the wins not being anywhere close and the losses mostly being related to me being a horrible player.
Thing is that due to its inherently clunky nature Aggro Loam just can't do much against a solid manabase + solid clock backed up by Counterbalance and mild disruption: most of the builds don't star any removal meaning that you can always play the aggro role while they struggle to do anything of relevance (Loam isn't really that great against a clock and/or a solid manabase)... and that relevant stuff they'll eventually find, you can just counter or remove otherwise. If Counterbalance joins the party at any point of the game, it just gets even the more ridiculous (as in they can't do anything). With previous incarnations of the build, I already had the feeling that without a Chalice of the Void @1 against a one-drop heavy hand or a very nastily timed Engineered Explosives against me getting overly greedy the deck couldn't really win. The build has evolved since then, eliminating Chalice as threat to a large extent, tilting the matchup even further to your favour.
It may just be my experience playing the matchup (Hassloch was totally flooded with Aggro Loam for some time), but I always found that I did not need any special tools to beat it which is why I won't dedicate any slots in my sideboard to it any more. It just happens that some of the stuff in my current sideboard is pretty decent in the matchup regardless of the fact that it wasn't added to fight Aggro Loam, so that it comes in: Hydroblast and Engineered Explosives weren't added to the Sideboard to fight Aggro Loam but still come in handy.
If you do continue having problems with the matchup, I'd suggest reverting back to one of my earlier builds (link (http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?creator=Clemens+Wolff)), featuring some 2-3 Jotun Grunts between main and side. With Jotun Grunt, there is absolutely no way you can continue to consistently loose to Aggro Loam at all - that little sucker just wins the matchup single-handedly. He achieves this effect by putting the Aggro Loam player into a dilemma situation: they can't play magic while he's on the board because he shrinks all their dudes to laughable sizes and disables their only means of creating card advantage (which is vital for them to make up for the large amount of lands and/or other useless stuff they have in their deck), however, they also can't efficiently dig for solutions while he's on the board because he disables Loam+Cycling Lands to a large extent and because, while digging for solutions, they keep feeding Grunt meaning that you're having a 4+ power clock. However, due to this same clock, they also can't really wait for him to die because that's not going to be any time soon anyway due to the nature of Aggro Loam (their 'yards are pretty full by the time you're going to find your 2-3off) and your deck.

What I was wondering about, your sideboard seems to lack any swarm control: no Duelling Grounds. Could you give me your reasoning on the exclusion of that card from your list?

I had Duelling Grounds in my list for quite some time, mainly due to me being one of the first people having 'discovered' that tech. However, some very important changes have since occurred and made Duelling Grounds out-dated.
First of all, Aggro Decks adopted a stronger lategame and landwalkers. Although many people seem not to understand this yet, the former feat means that you have to be the beatdown-player in the Aggro matchups as in the lategame, you're going to loose to your opponent having more brutally good stuff (infinite Ringleaders + Wort + Weirdings, Survival + Natural Order + Messengers, etc.). Duelling Grounds hinder this strategy by giving the Aggro opponent the opportunity to buy himself infinite time by chump-blocking with small, useless critters, while further strenghtening his board position to eventually find a solution and/or overwhelm you in another way.
Then, Mystic Enforcer got the axe - he was one of the prime reasons why you could still play Duelling Grounds, even with knowledge of the aforementioned facts. Although I really like Mystic Enforcer and think that it pretty much is the only good beater besides Tarmogoyf (and maybe Tombstalker) in the format, he's just not that great in the current builds and/or there's simply no space for him.
Hence Duelling Grounds got the axe.
As for other measures of 'swarm control', Engineered Explosives comes in extremely handy, ridding the opposing board either of all relevant stuff (Merfolk, Slivers, Goblins [always play it blindly for 1 on the play]) or of all means your opponent has to create tempo (killing a bunch of mana elves/chumpers against Elves is so extremely good, even the more if it allows your Tarmogoyf to swing for 1-2 more damage [creature+artefact] in the future). Also, Engineered Explosives isn't as narrow as Duelling Grounds, which is worth another thumbs up. Rhox War Monk also works wonders.
Thanks to those two (and Hydroblasts against some flavours of aggressive decks), the matchup really isn't that terrible any more - just keep in mind that you have to be the aggro player!

Smog

03-04-2009, 11:57 AM

Flashback is an alternative casting cost, Dredge is a replacement effect - you can't Needle either one.

That was actually what I meant, I just phrased it poorly. I should have said, "With the deck being fueled by so many flashback and dredge engines, what are the strongest needle options and what are the strongest dredgers I should worry about trying to deal with in other ways."

I need to stop being lazy in phrasing. Thanks for the rest of that though, I kind of assumed at best you could only hope to draw out against them on a regular basis without devoting a ton of board spots to it. I hate that deck.

spirit of the wretch

03-04-2009, 12:04 PM

I've played my fair share of the Ichorid vs Thresh MU (on both sides) and here are some thoughts to complement what Clemens said:
-Board out your CB!
-Sword their Ichorids (this should be obv). Do so preferably during their Upkeep, to keep them from flashbacking Cabal Therapy/Dread Returns.
-Try to counter their PImps (even if you have a Sword in hand!). A resolved PImp is just way to dangerous (and chances are your Counter won't hit anything more important).
-Keep unthreshed Bears at home to prevent the Ichorid player from attacking (otherwise he will lose his Bridges).
-Play as aggressiv as humanly possible. If you have to start playing the defensiv role you probably already have lost the game.

The main problem is, that Threshold is actually playing the Aggro role in this MU and it isn't prepared for this very well. But if the game lasts long enough Ichorid will overwhelm you with zombies. So I think your best shot is to mulligan aggressively into beater and start praying.

Enigma

03-04-2009, 11:41 PM

@Clemens:

What would be your SB strategy against Merfolk and Elf survivals as both decks ruins our days if they manage to stick a Lord in play (giving landswalk). Is Needle worth it? Shutting down Vial, Mutavault and Relic against Merfolk and Survival and Imperious Perfect against Elves.

But my major question is about Counterbalance. It looks like a bit slow against elves but a bit better against Merfolk. It already offered me a win vs Merfolk, but never against elves.

What you guys think of Hail storm? I tested it and felt it was a bit clunky because of the "attacking creatures". Is 3x EE + STP + RWM enough to seal games against those? I feel it's pretty even. About what you said of beeing the aggro player, I completly agree on this, thanks to RWM.

PM

Damoxx

03-10-2009, 10:02 PM

Going into GP: Chicago I was planning on playing Canadian Thresh, but once arriving I liked the look of UGwr Thresh. After some quick borrowing of some lands and buying of IA plows, here is the list I ran.

3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Fire//Ice
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trygon Predator
1 Mystic Enforcer
3 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Forest

SB:
4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Submerge
3 Pyroclasm
3 Krosan Grip

With no byes I went 4-3-1. I am trying to remember all the matches with no notes. I got my opponents names from wizards coverage.

Round 1: Brian Chorba w/ Burn (W 2-0)

Game 1: I open my opening had to see top, counterbalance, 2 land, fetch and brainstorm. Turn 1 top, turn 2 counterbalance = gg against burn.
Game 2: He nearly catches me with price of progress x 2. I was able to counter one, but had a high enough life total to survive the other all the while beating with goyfs.

Round 2: Tyler Beckstrom w/ Goblins (W 2-0)
Game 1: I plow turn 1 lackey. Drop a turn 2 goyf and ride him to victory partly in thanks to bad ringleader flips for him.
Game 2: I get a goyf down then he drops a Blood moon on me when I have a Trygon in hand, but not the forest. I proceed to savagely rip the forest off the top to play Trygon. Trygon eats 2 blood moons and a vial this game.

Round 3: Wes Blanchard w/ Dredge (W 2-1)
Game 1: I go turn 1 mongoose, not knowing what he is playing. His turn one he proceeds to drop, coliseum, LED, pitch hand, flashback Deep Analysis, and then dredges 2 narcos and a dread return on his first draw from deep analysis and I scoop.
Game 2: He mulls to 5 I believe. I go all aggro on him, dropping 2 goyfs that get HUGE from him dredging. His dredges were crap but they pumped the goyfs enough to kill him fast.
Game 3: This game was close with me savagely digging for answers the whole game. I believe I was able to plow 1 ichorid. I was able to beat him down to 10 thanks to painlands and mongoose beats. He is able to dread return a 7/7 Troll, while I have 2 6/7 goyfs and threshed mongoose. The crucial turn consisted him bringing back 3 ichorids with 2 zombies,the 7/7 troll in play and 2 bridges in the yard. I have 1 card in hand (top). He sacs the 3 ichorid to bring one back for 6 zombies. He swings with the troll, the mongoose makes a thump-thump sound as it goes under the bus. He looses his bridges, but has the tapped 7/7 and 8 2/2s. I go into my turn, draw a fetch land. I play top, search top three and find a pyroclasm 3 cards deep. I then proceed to clasm his blockers and swing FTW. Whew. A 40 minute dredge matchup, what the hell. Oh well, onto the next round.

Round 4: Jason Newill w/ Dreadstill (L 1-2)
Game 1: Turn 2 Dreadnought w/ force of will back up.
Game 2: I get counterbalance down, he tries to grip it, I flip a grip. He scoops.
Game 3: I lead with two fetches both are stifled. I scoop.

Round 5: Matt Barnett w/ Elves (W 2-1)
I don't remember much about this match, but Jason was a cool guy who was a white sox fan with a Dodgers jersey. It turns out elves don't like countertop + plows + burn + fatties.

Round 6: Matthew Tickal w/ aggro loam(L 0-2)
Matthew is a local players that I have played against many times. Turns out thresh decks don't like recurring wastelands. :( At least I know I sent a local player to the 5-1 bracket.

Round 7: Richard Franklin w/ UWb Landstill (D 1-1-1)
Game 1: Turn 1 mongoose pretty much goes the distance.
Game 2: He make a six soldier decree, followed by an Elspeth.
Game 3: We start this match with 5 minutes left in the round. I drop a turn 1 mongoose. A goyf joins the board, then he wraths the 3rd turn of overtime. DRAW.

Round 8: Anthony Hickerty w/ Rbg Goblins (L 1-2)
It's getting late, sorry I don't remember much about this match. I don't get much countermagic, he wierdings away goyfs and chains ringleaders together like goblins can do.

I drop to go get my water buffalo drinking hat, drink some beer and end up staying up to about 5 am, hanging with randoms having a blast. Most fun I've had at a tournament in a long time. Thanks all!!

diffy

03-15-2009, 05:16 PM

What would be your SB strategy against Merfolk and Elf survivals as both decks ruins our days if they manage to stick a Lord in play (giving landswalk).

Is Needle worth it? Shutting down Vial, Mutavault and Relic against Merfolk and Survival and Imperious Perfect against Elves.

I'll assume that you're playing a list along these (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12998) lines.

With that list, playing against Elves, I'd bring in any number of Engineered Explosives and Pithing Needles, taking out Daze (especially useless against Elves due to their inflationary amount of mana accelerants), Counterspell, and Trygon Predators. Pithing Needle is pretty important here because Survival of the Fittest, Imperious Perfect and especially Wren's Run Packmaster can really ruin your day.
Against Merfolk, Trygon Predators can stay in while Needles stay out: Merfolk is much slower than Elves making Trygon Predator worth it. Also, they have less good targets for Needle (basically they only have Vial and Relic as relevant targets, both which are hit fairy well by Predator, who, au contrary to Needle, is solid against due to his body) and more Trygon Predator targets (Standstill).

Also, keep in mind to play as aggressively as possible. Especially Elves will overwhelm you if you give them enough time: they just play way too many bombs for you to handle. In the same time, Merfolk will just topdeck into more Lords than you can handle and win - try to not give them that time.

But my major question is about Counterbalance. It looks like a bit slow against elves but a bit better against Merfolk. It already offered me a win vs Merfolk, but never against elves.

Counterbalance is so-so against both. It's not terrible but not terrific either: it's not one of the first things to come out, however, if you have more stuff in your sideboard for these matchups, you can always board out 1 Counterbalance and 1 Top (assuming you play 4/4).

What you guys think of Hail storm? I tested it and felt it was a bit clunky because of the "attacking creatures". Is 3x EE + STP + RWM enough to seal games against those? I feel it's pretty even.

I don't like it: it's just too clunky (cc3, double green + the attackers restriction which will make it often not hit the real threats aka. Lords makes it slow and only conditionally awesome). If you want more for the swarm aggro matchups, try playing Umezawa's Jittes, Vedalken Shackles and/or Path to Exile.

Speaking of New Builds™, here is what I played on today's Hassloch event, coming in second with a score of 5-1, loosing to Ug Merfolk (0:2) and winning against RGB Aggro Loam (2:0), 4c Aggro Control (2:1), NQG/w (2:1), Rgb Goblins (2:1) and Aggro Elves (2:1).
Detailed report coming soon to a forum near to you.
Also, a very slight variation of my pre-Iserlohn build (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23357) (something along the lines of -1 Werebear +1 Counterspell) took first, going 6-0, beating (and by beating I obviously mean lucksacking) Merfolk (twice) and Ichorid (once), amongst others. The other NQG/w builds in the room went 3-3 (variation of my Iserlohn list (http://web17.accelerated.de/turniere/2009-03-01/legacy/Platz_7.mwDeck) piloted by Martin MSC Schreiber, something along the lines of -2 Werebear -1 Counterspell +2 Noble Hierarch +1 Steward of Valeron) and 1-4drop (Natural Order Hatfield list, piloted by Daniel Adan Scherer).

Disclaimer: Kids, don't try this at home or at school.

Not Quite Balanced /w (Alternative List IV) (http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=dgbs8px8_4hcj6v6g7&hl=en)
by Clemens Wolff

/// Maindeck (60 cards)

// Lands (18)
4 Flooded Strand (http://magiccards.info/on/en/316.html)
4 Windswept Heath (http://magiccards.info/on/en/328.html)
3 Tropical Island (http://magiccards.info/be/en/299.html)
3 Tundra (http://magiccards.info/be/en/300.html)
3 Island (http://magiccards.info/apac/en/12.html)
1 Forest (http://magiccards.info/apac/en/11.html)

// Guys (13)
4 Tarmogoyf (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/153.html)
3 Werebear (http://magiccards.info/od/en/282.html)
1 Steward of Valeron (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/198.html)
1 Hoofprints of the Stag (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/21.html)
1 Trygon Predator (http://magiccards.info/di/en/133.html)
1 Trinket Mage (http://magiccards.info/5dn/en/39.html)
2 Rhox War Monk (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/188.html)

// Card Advantage (12)
4 Brainstorm (http://magiccards.info/mm/en/61.html)
3 Ponder (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/79.html)
4 Sensei's Divining Top (http://magiccards.info/chk/en/268.html)
1 Enlightened Tutor (http://magiccards.info/mr/en/218.html)

// Permission (8)
4 Counterbalance (http://magiccards.info/cs/en/31.html)
4 Force of Will (http://magiccards.info/ai/en/42.html)

// Removal (7)
4 Swords to Plowshares (http://magiccards.info/ia/en/278.html)
1 Oblivion Ring (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/34.html)
1 Vedalken Shackles (http://magiccards.info/5dn/en/164.html)
1 Engineered Explosives (http://magiccards.info/5dn/en/118.html)

// Stuff (2)
1 Umezawa's Jitte (http://magiccards.info/bok/en/163.html)
1 Krosan Grip (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/202.html)

/// Sideboard (15 cards)
1 Jotun Grunt (http://magiccards.info/cs/en/8.html)
1 Relic of Progenitus (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/218.html)
1 Engineered Explosives (http://magiccards.info/5dn/en/118.html)
1 Krosan Grip (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/202.html)
2 Pithing Needle (http://magiccards.info/sok/en/158.html)
1 Back to Basics (http://magiccards.info/us/en/62.html)
3 Gaddock Teeg (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/248.html)
2 Hydroblast (http://magiccards.info/ia/en/72.html)
1 Blue Elemental Blast (http://magiccards.info/be/en/50.html)
1 Path to Exile (http://magiccards.info/cfx/en/15.html)
1 Dueling Grounds (http://magiccards.info/in/en/245.html)

You can stop screaming now.

First of all, have a look at this (http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=dgbs8px8_4hcj6v6g7&hl=en) rough comparison of my past builds. See the progression in the builds? Aye, the builds are gravitating toward a more control-focused list: tempo-playing just doesn't really cut it any more when every single guy in the format (Tarmogoyf) stops your aggro gameplan (Tarmogoyf) cold and when your other beaters are either itsy-bitsy or need until turn 10 or so to stop being pocket-size. Cutting Daze and adding further good control elements was just the next consequent step. Especially since some people started being not horrible, realizing that Gro isn't fast enough to make any use of the one turn you give them by playing around Daze. To quote Stefan: "I lately only use Daze to pump Quirion Dryad".

I feel that you're still screaming (as in a "Tu quoque fili?!" scream).
The Highlander approach was something I always wanted to do. For one, Highlander is simply awesome. If that isn't enough for you, here's the reasoning for the spike: I've been a proponent of the 1+1+1+1 = 4 idea for a long time - while not reducing consistency by much, you're simply increasing power by loads which is huge - and Nassif's placing finally gave me the legitimacy I needed to back it up and actually put it to action.

If you're still a little dazzled, here's some card by card reasoning:
Steward of Valeron (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/198.html).
Click on that link, I'll wait.
This is something Martin MSC Schreiber put me up to, the Friday before the event, so it is largely untested. It did seem nice enough to me to try though: it's basically a Werebear that's incredibly better early (you don't get Threshold until around turn 10 like ever), at least if it weren't for the colour requirements (not being able to drop that accelerant on your second turn because your manabase sucks will greatly set you back, trust me on this one).
Also, Steward of Valeron + Umezawa's Jitte = Steaksauce. Reminds me of the only way Fish could win back in the day. Call me nostalgic (but don't call me red).
In the end, he turned out to be solid - the interaction with Jitte actually came up in a matchup where it was relevant (Goblins) and obviously won the game on the spot, and he was better than Werebear when I drew him without the random-win that is Jitte. That was mainly due to the fact that my manabase wasn't under any real assault this month though - I wouldn't play more than one (needed for the random win situations, for the big "wtf" on your opponent's face, and to draw him when Werebear would have been bad - learn to be French, that is).
Hoofprints of the Stag
I wanted to give this another shot since I already have Enlightened Tutor in the list and because I irrationally like the card.
It turned out to be as 'bad' as I expected it to be though: it wasn't relevant in any matchup but in the drawn out ones (Thanks Captain Obvious (http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd336/fr_slingsandarrows/captain_obvious_rock_gift.jpg)) (against 4c Aggro Control). It was a nice puffer against Aggro Loam, too, but that's really it.
In conclusion, I'll need to reconsider it and test my aggro matchups further to see if I can afford the one truly dead slot against them.
1 Trygon Predator / 1 Krosan Grip
First of all, I expected loads of Counterbalance. I was wrong on that call however (note to self: always never metagame for Legacy events). We're Legacy - where your 50% of metagame Leviathan will just turn into a mere 10% small fish in the sea 30 days later.
I'm still not going back though. See the Highlander theory above for an explanation.
Also, it frees up Sideboard slots.
2 Rhox War Monk / 1 Trinket Mage
Sice I already had Engineered Explosives in there, I figured that I might just as well play one Trinket Mage in one of the Rhox War Monk slots: with an Engineered Explosives to fetch, both do a solid job against aggro decks (Mage being worse though), however, Trinket Mage is much better in the mirror or against control due to fetching Explosives or SdT.
He also allows you to get some of your Enlightened Tutor targets with greater consistency.
However, due to Aggro being a worse matchup than other Aggro Control or Control decks, I wouldn't cut more Rhox War Monks for him: I'd still rather make bad matchups better than further improve on good matchups.
3 Ponder / 4 Sensei's Divining Top
Thank you, Pros.
You too, Chicago.
Also, totally the right call: SdT is just such a broken card.
The slight loss in tempo against aggressive decks is made up for by other changes to improve on those matchups.
Enlightened Tutor
I've written something earlier (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=317781&postcount=1846) on this, something about how he's more or less only worth it if you play enough narrowish bombs to fetch out - well, with this build, you certainly have your fair share of 'omg I just win in this matchup (but am not totally horrible in most others, by the way)' stuff to get so that he came back in.
Also,gives your more excuses for the Highlanderness of your Deck.
Umezawa's Jitte
Steaksauce against aggressive decks, especially against Tribal Decks (which are bad matchups, need I remind you).
Also somewhat solid to turn your non-Goyf dudes into anything more than utility beaters (and to kill Goyfs, along the way).
If it weren't for the already lowish creature count, I'd probably throw a second in.
Vedalken Shackles
(see Umezawa's Jitte)
It needed a manabase overhaul to work though - especially having to get rid of the basic Plains was not cool. You can somewhat get away with it though because you only play a limited amount of white spells and because you don't need constant access to those (just fetch a Tundra once, play that removal and then move along). I definitely want that Plains back in though, I just don't know how right now.
I'll probably add land n°19 to support it better: 5 mana is loads, and you really want to hit those first four Islands in order to do something against your Friendly Neighbourhood Lhurgoyf
Path to Exile
Outstanding, I'll probably add the second to the board soon: having access to more, cheap!, removal postboard is good in bad matchups like Tribal (I do get repetitive, don't I?).
It's also a good board slot because of its amazing flexibility.
Dueling Grounds
Last Minuted addition, not worth it (as I already stated, you need to be aggressive against those damn aggro decks - this prevents you from being aggressive. Jitte made me reconsider it, Worship is probably better though - I just couldn't get hold of one).
Move along, there's nothing to see here.

I think that's all that needed clearing up. If there's anything else you're still wtf-ing at, feel free to post/ask.
Also, you guys hold your breath till that report hits the air - Team SPOD weren't just your ordinary awesome guys this time. Also, Nephilims.