[OLD] UGw Threshold

[Aleksandr]

What instants or sorceries do you really want to make uncounterable that have colorless mana in their cost? If you are worried about Counterbalance mirrors, just play more Grips, Predators, or Explosives.

Natural Order.
If you want to go oldshool, try Geddon and/or FoF.

[johanessen]

Or Shushers.

[Citrus-God]

What instants or sorceries do you really want to make uncounterable that have colorless mana in their cost? If you are worried about Counterbalance mirrors, just play more Grips, Predators, or Explosives.

NO.

I totally forgot about Vexing Shushers. I need to test him, actually. He makes everything uncounterable.

[Damnosus]

I was just wondering what strategies you folks use against geddonstax? I have been having a lot of trouble playing against it lately so any advice would be greatly appreciated.

[Adan]

I was just wondering what strategies you folks use against geddonstax? I have been having a lot of trouble playing against it lately so any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Resolve Trygon Predator and rape them...?

[Damnosus]

Yea you'd think that would do the trick wouldn't you. However, twice I played trygon (one of which I was able to play it as a two of), and both times he managed to beat me, once geddoning with a magus in play, and the other time by plopping an angel down. I mean maybe it was bad luck considering I couldn't find a swords or a counter in either game, but yea predator does not necessarily do the trick. It is an annoying deck to face because I feel like there are so many must counters (chalice, geddon, smokestax, trinisphere). Is white thresh supposed to have a decent matchup against stax and I just need to figure out how to play better, or is this a legit matchup?

[Charlatan]

I feel like there are so many must counters (chalice, geddon, smokestax, trinisphere). Is white thresh supposed to have a decent matchup against stax and I just need to figure out how to play better, or is this a legit matchup?

I think that here is your big problem, all this cards are a VIRTUAL problems, i think that the first step is to counter GEDOM no matterwhat, chalice, trinis (again), crucibles and smokes (people run a few copies, it's hard to see 4) u can handle after with trygon, k grip, ring, counters, EE...

And the most importan, hand to keep, u must know what hands to kp...

Ty

[klaus]

I think that here is your big problem, all this cards are a VIRTUAL problems, i think that the first step is to counter GEDOM no matterwhat, chalice, trinis (again), crucibles and smokes (people run a few copies, it's hard to see 4) u can handle after with trygon, k grip, ring, counters, EE...

And the most importan, hand to keep, u must know what hands to kp...
Ty

I believe 1st+2nd turn Trinsphere and Crucible are the main counter targets - without Crucible the Stax player is unlikely to play GEddon in the first place, unless of course he's got Flagstones and Mox online.

[godryk]

Well, Geddon Stax isn't very played in my meta right now, but back in the day it was, the best plan for me was saving FoW for geddon, specially after the first few turns. But I'm counting on Trygon Predator here to do the job.

[risethehandsofreason]

Depending on what you are holding, Trinisphere is a must-counter, because it cuts off your free counterspells. If a 3sphere is on the table, your Force for Geddon won't help, so, oftentimes, the 3sphere is a counter target by necessity.

In most of my recent matchups, the key has been to work hard to resolve a Predator and hang on to countermagic for the Humility, since that shuts the Predator down. After sideboard, it is all about resolving Gaddock Teeg to give yourself time to set up.

It is an entirely winnable matchup, depending on each build. I have run maindeck Back to Basics for a while now, so the matchup is better for me than most, perhaps.

[klaus]

I'm not sure whether it's been addressed before, so ignore me if it is the case.

>> Noble Hierarch: Hot or Not? <<

I'd say hot, even as a 4of.
Here's why (pros):

- Makes your Dazes better (makes up for the lack of speed)
- Makes you opp's Dazes worse
- Makes your opp's LD wane (Moon, Wasteland, etc..)
- functions well with mana-hungry Top.
- enables Top+CB on turn 2
- it let's us run more CMC 3 spells that hit on turn 2 (RWM, TP...)
- doesn't take away as many slots as one might think since we could cut some land for her, too
- helps trump other goyfs (okay was too obvious)
- functions well with SB B2B
- and no, it's not a horrible topdeck (view it as a land.)
.
As for the cons: Be creative and fire away!
But don't come up with stuff like "she's simply not powerful enough".

[spirit of the wretch]

I'm not sure whether it's been addressed before, so ignore me if it is the case.

>> Noble Hierarch: Hot or Not? <<

I'd say hot, even as a 4of.
Here's why (pros):

- Makes your Dazes better (makes up for the lack of speed)
- Makes you opp's Dazes worse
- Makes your opp's LD wane (Moon, Wasteland, etc..)
- functions well with mana-hungry Top.
- enables Top+CB on turn 2
- it let's us run more CMC 3 spells that hit on turn 2 (RWM, TP...)
- doesn't take away as many slots as one might think since we could cut some land for her, too
- helps trump other goyfs (okay was too obvious)
- functions well with SB B2B
- and no, it's not a horrible topdeck (view it as a land.)
.
As for the cons: Be creative and fire away!
But don't come up with stuff like "she's simply not powerful enough".

Well, just for the sake of the argument I'll go on and list some cons:

- CMC 1 sucks with CB (this is the main reason)
- Counter/Top on turn two isn't any better than turn three, if you don't have the mana to use top
- At roughly 18 lands, you probably don't want to cut any of them, so you have to view her (him?) as a spell
- If you play her instead of a land, spot removal could mana screw you
- If you play her instead of a spell, I don't think her powerlevel is high enough (dammit, now I said it =)
- You can't really exellerate into big spells, as the deck doesn't play any (turn two Shackles/Oblivion Rings/Predator aren't too impressive)
- Not particularly helpful against swarm aggro or heavy control (the bad MUs).

All in all: Clemens played Werebears in his latest lists and I think they do the job better in pretty much every aspect.

[sauce]

noble hierarchs suck in thresh. you need efficient/resilient beaters who are not going to get easily removed (stp/smother/snuff out/bolt) by most common removal in legacy.

naturally goyf gets removed by stp/smother/snuff out (and maybe bolt) but at least he is not a 0/1.

[MSC]

I play 2 Hierarch at the Moment with 17 Lands. It has been okay so far. Best effect is to win Tarmo-Wars. A little resilence versus Landhate isn't so bad either.
But I wouldn't play more than this 2. It is just not strong enough.

[MoonDark]

I have been playing 4 Hierarch... just test the fellow... he's awesome.

[Charlatan]

Hey guys, does "traditional thresh" run ok nowadays?

i mean:

18 lands

4 tarmo
4 nimble
2 trygon

4 fow
4 daze
4 bs
4 balance
4 stp
3 top
3 ponder
2 o-ring
2 EE
2 predict/ mystic enforcer?

Is that ok? Would someone change something?
I was thinking about needle in MD, instead of mystic/predict/trygon.

Ty

[Ophidian]

Hey guys, does "traditional thresh" run ok nowadays?

i mean:

18 lands

4 tarmo
4 nimble
2 trygon

4 fow
4 daze
4 bs
4 balance
4 stp
3 top
3 ponder
2 o-ring
2 EE
2 predict/ mystic enforcer?

Is that ok? Would someone change something?
I was thinking about needle in MD, instead of mystic/predict/trygon.

Ty


I ran that deck (-1 Land -2 EE +2 Predict +1 Ponder) to 6-3 @ the GP.

Started off 3-0
Lost back to back rounds to Enchantress
Won 2 more
Lost to Merfolk
Won last round

Moral of the story:
Don't play vs Enchantress and you'll crush.

[sauce]

I ran that deck (-1 Land -2 EE +2 Predict +1 Ponder) to 6-3 @ the GP.

Started off 3-0
Lost back to back rounds to Enchantress
Won 2 more
Lost to Merfolk
Won last round

Moral of the story:
Don't play vs Enchantress and you'll crush.

and don't play vs tribal aggro.

[Ophidian]

and don't play vs tribal aggro.

X-1 would have been ok with me =)




Besides, I had to mull to 4 game 1 vs folk. (But it's still a terrible matchup)

[PowrDragn]

Seriously, I think Trygon Predator should never be removed from this deck. I find myself relying on this card more than any other. And in most matchups he has a legitimate target to go after.

At worst, again aggro decks (goblins and merfolk) you can go after a vial.

I'm still on the fence about Noble Hierarch. I'm wondering if an even split of 2 Werebear/2 Hierarch is the way to go. Each is advantageous at different points during a game, but for distinctly different reasons.

[Charlatan]

I ran that deck (-1 Land -2 EE +2 Predict +1 Ponder) to 6-3 @ the GP.

Started off 3-0
Lost back to back rounds to Enchantress
Won 2 more
Lost to Merfolk
Won last round

Moral of the story:
Don't play vs Enchantress and you'll crush.

I would change your moral, run EE if u wat to win echantress!

I think that EE+trygon+ grip in SB may fuck up with this deck

U have a good result with this list...

[Pomaxx]

first of all let me state that i like Noble Hierarch a lot.
I included a playset and modified a list to fully absuse the Bant accelerator, resulting in a list with a lot of 3 drop creatures i wanted to include anyway. (namely RWM, Trygon Predator).
i somewhere read that N.H. generates mana ".....you dont even have a use for". well, if so, why not make some use of it? it changes the approach somehow, but for me it works out quite good.
casting a Noble Hierarch on turn 1 has a lot of benefits as mentioned before but what people tend to overlook is the exalted mechanic.
whoever plays Limited or Standard should know.
Creature stalls are highly in your favour with a Hierach and some other critter [insert creature here].
In certain matchups e.g.(like Goyfsligh, which sees a lot of play here) you often find yourself casting turn 1 Hierarch, turn 2 RWM and its a downhill ride from there. RWM is great in that matchup anyway, but putting him down turn 2 and swinging for 4 lifelink on turn 3 puts you in a very good position against burn, against other decks the boosted lifelink helps racing too.

Having two Tarmogoyfs stare at each other on both sides of the table with Hierarch backup on your side is pretty nice as well. Chump with your Goyf while mine survives?

I was testing some other creatures and stumbeled accross Troll Ascetic. Sucks? Yep. In traditional builds this might be true. With Hierarch however, you may want to give him a second try. Comes down fast, gets exalted, regenerates and dodges almost all removal.

[Legacy]

I really don't think Nobel Hierarch is good in legacy. Sure against goyf sligh a 2nd turn warmonk is awesome, but against good decks, it isn't up to par. What i am trying to say is it is not a threat on its own. So you play your NH and accell into [insert creature]. I simply remove your [insert creature] from the game and you are stuck with a 0/1(yes it can attack for 1). I then play my [insert creature] and am one up on you. You played NH and creature, i played stp and creature and what is left is me with a better creature. Most games are a battle removing permanent after permanent and both players usually end up with a non land permanent a peice. What do you want to be left with, your Nobel Hierarch or a Non-Nobel Hierarch?

Bottom line it is not a threat on its own and in legacy every card you play has to be a must deal with card.

[PowrDragn]

I think this is a misconception. Every card does not have to be a threat on it's own. Some cards are simply setup cards. A deck can have a few cards that aren't threats. It just can't be loaded down with them. No matter what, they still need to be readily useful.

I still stand by the fact that everyone should at least play with the Noble Heirarch before outright giving up on it. I do agree though that the build of your deck needs to change a bit.

Even as recent at the GP, we saw a lot of variations and a bit of innovation in the way of Thresh. We also need to rename it and put it in a separate section. I was a bit skeptical myself. After making a few changes though, I've changed my tune.

In my most recent build, I play two each of Werebear and Hierarch:

18 Land
28 Spells
15 Creatures

And yes that equals 61. It runs fine as it is. I'm just debating pulling a land or not. I'm definitely running more creatures than the old traditional builds, but I'm getting better results. And those hierarchs do play a part in the grand scheme of things. They've been solid enough that I've debeating dropping the bears altogether and replacing them. My only concern right now is the NH's late game potential.

[Melwis]

Hello everyone!

So I went into this thread and did som reading on how the latest lists of UGW Threshold looked like. After some reading I did my take on the deck and this is how it turned out:

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [R] Tropical Island
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [R] Savannah
2 [R] Tundra
2 [DD2] Island (1)
1 [ALA] Forest (1)
1 [ALA] Plains (1)

// Creatures
2 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [DIS] Trygon Predator

// Spells
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
1 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
2 [OD] Predict
2 [DD2] Daze
4 [CS] Counterbalance
2 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
4 [AL] Force of Will

Since there is alot of discussion about Noble Hierarch i'll just tell you what I think so far when i've tested the deck. Keep in mind I haven't played Thresh all that much and I am only playing casually so :)

The biggest advantage of NH is really when you get it in your starting hand (perhaps obvious). The mana ability is solid during midgame or so aswell and makes the deck atleast a bit more safe overall. The Exalted mechanic can be pretty handy. For those times where I have NH + another creature out it really can make a differance. Is has been mentioned but to be able to come out on top in Goyf vs. Goyf wars is a big plus and I also like the fact that the mechanic somewhat gives a single Mongoose/Predator a faster clock.

Overall I don't think the card is game breaking but I do like the 2-of i've included so far and I think I will keep it at that.


I really would like to hear your toughts on the 1-of Enlightened Tutor i've included. I wanted to make the deck focus on getting CB + Top out and at start I had included 4 SDT's. But then I suddenly tought of Enlightened Tutor and it just seems right to include it. I would go as far so to say maybe 2 wouldn't be wrong but it gets a bit harder on what to remove for another spot then. Anyways, really interested in your comments about this :)

[Damnosus]

My main problem with NH over werebear (because he seems to be the most similar to NH, and therefore the slot that will most likely be replaced) is that NH is 1cmc. Werebear is nice because he adds to the all important 2cmc for countertop purposes. I feel that the reduction of 2cmc cards greatly hinders the impact of countertop. So I guess the real question is what is the best number of 2cmc cards for countertop? If 12 is enough (3/4 daze, 0/1 counterspell, 4 goyf, 4 counterbalance) then werebear is unnecessary. Otherwise, NH should probably not be in the deck.

[caldaean]

I feel that the reduction of 2cmc cards greatly hinders the impact of countertop. So I guess the real question is what is the best number of 2cmc cards for countertop? If 12 is enough (3/4 daze, 0/1 counterspell, 4 goyf, 4 counterbalance) then werebear is unnecessary.

I'm having that exact problem as well, and not just with NH vs. Werebear. For instance, I keep being constantly dissapointed with Daze, since it either slows me down (due to me having to use it sometime turn 1-3 thus losing tempo), the rest of the time it just lingers on my hand as a pitching target for Force of Will. Werebear has the same problem. First, it's a 2cmc Llanowar Elves, later it's a chumper (which mostly just creates a stalemate, due to being mid/lategame). Neither of them have yet improved my gameplan, but both have left me wishing for something else when I got them. Spellsnare and NH just seem to work so much better, but making the change brings me down to 10 2cmc-cards, which is disastrous for CB.

[Melwis]

Even though noone replied to my post (i'm not sad :tongue:) I still think you started discussing a big problem regarding my list, namely to few CMC 2 cards...

I think what I will try is to reduce the Mongoose count to 2 and throw in 2 Werebears. I'll lower the land count to 17 also which gives me place for a 3rd Predict. The reason why I go with NH > Mongoose is mainly because my deck is alot more control than it is aggro and I don't really get Threshold until quite a few rounds.

Question: What about Meddling Mage? I guess many of you have it in the SB but personally I don't create SB's for my decks and most of the time I play I know what I am facing. Would MM be a better choice than Werebear perhaps then?

[PowrDragn]

I think Mongoose doesn't have a home in your list unless you are playing against a ton of quick aggro (most notably goblins).

In every other matchup, I haven't missed the goose at all.

[Damnosus]

I have been having some real problems with the deck recently. First, there is the need for cmc 2 cards that we have been discussing. Werebear is decent, but it really just does not do what it needs to do in this deck: it is slower than most mana producers, and since thresh does not come quickly with this deck, it is most often far to small to effect the most important part of the game (the early game). That being said, it is probably the best cmc 2 card for the deck atm.

Second, I will agree that daze has been bugging me a lot lately. While I gain a little tempo, it is often the case that it slows me down too because I am unable to play that all important counterbalance on turn two. Either something is wrong, or I am playing it improperly. However, I don't know what to do when I get hit with an early trinisphere and I have no force.

Third, I am having a real hard time against certain decks because there are no cards that produce clear card advantage in the deck. I mean countertop is fantastic at times, but all too often I find myself stripped of both cards, or unable to find the second piece, so i wind up in a position where I am relying too often on topdecks.

Because of these problems, I have really been considering moving over to the NLU decks that have been popular since GP Chicago. My only real problem with the change (other than the fact that I do not have underground seas :frown: ) is that the mana base is much less stable. Things like blood/magus of the moon, back2basics, and wasteland can really mess up NLU. That being said, the mana base that I am running right now for white thresh has not been super great either (it is the standard 17 lands): my friend plays a B/W deck which is kinda just good card.dec, which I have a really hard time beating because I simply cannot get around the discard/land destruction (duress, hymn, gerrard's verdict, sinkhole, vindicate, hippie, waste). By the time he plays a creature I only have one land left with maybe a top in play and no cards in hand. While NLU has a crappier mana base, at least it plays more lands so that wasteland is not as effective as you will simply draw more lands.

Additionally, NLU plays confidant which is great as a cmc 2 card as well as a card advantage engine. This really helps to prevent getting into the topdecking mode.

Finally, it is almost immune to graveyard destruction-this is really helpful.

Ultimately I would love to stick with three colors as it will save me a lot of money, and I like simplicity, but at the moment I am not sure it is viable.

[Enigma]

Run probasco's list, which is way more consistant than nassif's list. 2 color MD + a splash red in SB. Really solid.

[_erbs_]

17 lands for me is low. During the times i've been playing this deck i ran 19 lands with 8 cantrips (4 brainstorm & 4 ponder). It was just good enough to survive from mana disruptions and non basic hate. I also use 3 werebears. Ive never tried the NH but i would love to i think its good in mirror goyfs matchups. Reason's ive ran the bears over the NH was i need beaters late game but it sucks when they get shrunk.

[Jujuhawk]

17 lands for me is low. During the times i've been playing this deck i ran 19 lands with 8 cantrips (4 brainstorm & 4 ponder). It was just good enough to survive from mana disruptions and non basic hate. I also use 3 werebears. Ive never tried the NH but i would love to i think its good in mirror goyfs matchups. Reason's ive ran the bears over the NH was i need beaters late game but it sucks when they get shrunk.

8 Cantrips is way too many imo. I run 4 Brainstorm and 2 Ponder and it's totally fine. 4 Ponder is unnecessary and redundant.

[Damnosus]

8 Cantrips is way too many imo. I run 4 Brainstorm and 2 Ponder and it's totally fine. 4 Ponder is unnecessary and redundant.

How many lands do you play? I have recently replaced a ponder with a tundra making 3x ponder, 18x lands.

Just as an aside for those of you who enjoy playing NH but consider the lack of 2cmc cards to be a problem, have you tried doing 2x NH and 2x Spellsnare in the spots that werebear would normally take? I am just curious if this would help to shore up the problem.

Finally, what do you guys think of the newly spoiled Wisescale Serpent? At the moment (cause I do not think it is completely confirmed), it is a 2/2 for 1UG, that you can put a +1/+1 counter on every time you draw a card. I really like the idea behind it considering that a single brainstorm turns it into a 5/5, but I am not sure what it could replace. Any thoughts?

[sauce]

How many lands do you play? I have recently replaced a ponder with a tundra making 3x ponder, 18x lands.

Just as an aside for those of you who enjoy playing NH but consider the lack of 2cmc cards to be a problem, have you tried doing 2x NH and 2x Spellsnare in the spots that werebear would normally take? I am just curious if this would help to shore up the problem.

Finally, what do you guys think of the newly spoiled Wisescale Serpent? At the moment (cause I do not think it is completely confirmed), it is a 2/2 for 1UG, that you can put a +1/+1 counter on every time you draw a card. I really like the idea behind it considering that a single brainstorm turns it into a 5/5, but I am not sure what it could replace. Any thoughts?

i assume it could replace hoofprints of the stag if you ran them. i doubt it can compete with any other slot because it has no immediate impact on the game state besides blocking a nonthreshed mongoose.

[Jujuhawk]

How many lands do you play? I have recently replaced a ponder with a tundra making 3x ponder, 18x lands.

Just as an aside for those of you who enjoy playing NH but consider the lack of 2cmc cards to be a problem, have you tried doing 2x NH and 2x Spellsnare in the spots that werebear would normally take? I am just curious if this would help to shore up the problem.

Finally, what do you guys think of the newly spoiled Wisescale Serpent? At the moment (cause I do not think it is completely confirmed), it is a 2/2 for 1UG, that you can put a +1/+1 counter on every time you draw a card. I really like the idea behind it considering that a single brainstorm turns it into a 5/5, but I am not sure what it could replace. Any thoughts?

I play 18 land 2 ponder, and it's totally fine.

[_erbs_]

8 Cantrips is way too many imo. I run 4 Brainstorm and 2 Ponder and it's totally fine. 4 Ponder is unnecessary and redundant.

the 19 lands + 8 cantrips (4 bs & 4 ponder) is just fine for me, maybe it depends on how you play. I want to be resilliant to mana disruption and be able to find cards i need to remove a threat or do my combo.

With regards to Wisescale Serpent is a cute card but for me it has no place in my current list but it has potential especially if your plan on running aggro bant..

[Jujuhawk]

the 19 lands + 8 cantrips (4 bs & 4 ponder) is just fine for me, maybe it depends on how you play. I want to be resilliant to mana disruption and be able to find cards i need to remove a threat or do my combo.

With regards to Wisescale Serpent is a cute card but for me it has no place in my current list but it has potential especially if your plan on running aggro bant..

That seems very redundant. Like, 19 lands seems fine, but 8 cantrips is better with a low land count, and I think with 19 you don't need so many.

The 2/2 for 1UG is probably better than war monk in my list. That card is ok, but it hasn't really done anything for me so far.

[ShiftyKapree]

NH is no STP. In goyf vs goyf wars I just sit and wait for my STP and if they have theres counter it. I was thinking of adding Vexing Shusher to the SB of this deck for the mirror.

[Damnosus]

After thinking a little bit about some of the problems I have been having with the deck, I have made a couple of changes and I wanted to know what you folks thought. Here is what I am gonna start testing:

Lands: 18
4x Flooded Strand
4x Windswept Heath
3x Tundra
3x Tropical Island
1x Forest
3x Island

Blue: 17
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Counterbalance
3x Daze
2x Ponder

White: 4
4x Swords to Plowshares

Green: 11
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Werebear
2x Noble Hierarch
1x Krosan Grip

Gold: 5
2x Trygon Predator
2x Rhox War Monk (considering swapping for Wisescale Serpent)
1x Mystic Enforcer

Artifacts: 5
4x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Vedalken Shackles

Sideboard:
3x Gaddock Teeg
2x Tormod's Crypt
3x Blue Elemental Blast
3x Engineered Explosives
1x Krosan Grip
3x Pithing Needle

Ok so here are my thoughts on it: first off, I wanted to keep the CMC of the cards within the deck similar to other successful counterbalance decks. At the moment I have 16 cmc 1 cards (which might be slightly high due to the number of tops), 15 cmc 2 cards (probably the minimum for any deck that does not play spell snare-a card which I really do not like), 6 cmc 3 cards (on the higher end which I appreciate-casting them is easy due to the increased number of mana producers), 1 cmc 4 (not sure if this is correct, seeing as so many others had 2-3), 4 cmc 5 (force of will for the win). I think these are good numbers for abusing countertop, though, admittedly, I wish I had one more cmc 2 card, but I really don't want a 4th daze, and I have never been successful with Predicts. So hopefully this will work out ok.

Card choices: while I know that previous lists usually use 4 ponder and 17 lands, I felt that I was too often keeping a one land hand with cantrips, something I really do not want to keep doing considering chalice at 1/trinisphere, a wasteland (if the single land is a nonbasic), a even a counterspell can do you in. So I feel that the 18 land is a step in the right direction.

The land base has also changed a little bit: initially I had a single plains instead of the third island. This change was made due to my desire to include vedalken shackles, a card which I think is a good way to increase the chances of gaining card advantage (card quality+countertop can only get you so far). I kept the single forest so that I could still hit blood/magus of the moon/back2basics with explosives. Additionally, I decided on a single forest over a plains because if my tundras get hit by wasteland/extirpate, it is far less devastating than if my tropicals were gone.

I am, however, unsure if I have enough islands/lands to even be playing shackles: I figured playing/activating it would not be so hard due to the mana acceleration, but it definitely limits my targets. It is this aspect which might make or break noble hierarch for me (as I would add two more lands in their place). I am also uncertain if the card should simply be the O-ring that I was playing before, but I am not enjoying O-Ring as much as I used to due to the fact that, like sower of temptation, it is only pseudo removal, as its removal negates its effect. It is for this reason as well, that I run Enforcer over sower of temptation, but I am still unsure if that is the correct choice. I could just forgo both and run another shackles, but I feel a 4cmc card is good to have, though maybe not as a 1 of...

Lately Rhox War Monk has been not much more than a FoW chuck-thus I want to try out Wisescale Serpent at some point. I am not sure if this is the best idea, but only testing will tell.

Please let me know your thoughts!

[Jujuhawk]

You're running a lot of 3 drops which is awkward with counterbalance. I want 4 daze too, that was the best card in the deck in the tournament I won on saturday. I drew trips against Eva Green and it wasn't even close.

[Damnosus]

You're running a lot of 3 drops which is awkward with counterbalance. I want 4 daze too, that was the best card in the deck in the tournament I won on saturday. I drew trips against Eva Green and it wasn't even close.

How are 3 drops awkward for Countertop? I thought the idea was to run more so that you can effectively counter deed, vindicate, most of staxx, grip (sometimes), predator, etc. I mean a majority of the cards used to get rid of countertop are cmc 3. Besides, I run no more than Der Imaginare Freund (a player who I greatly respect especially regarding U/G/w thresh).

I am still on the fence about daze. Far too often it does little to nothing-it is a mixed bag in the early game because it slows me down, and it is pretty bad in the late game. For a while I was running the 3 daze/1 counterspell tech, but I changed that to fit in a few extra things.

What does your decklist look like?

[ShiftyKapree]

After thinking a little bit about some of the problems I have been having with the deck, I have made a couple of changes and I wanted to know what you folks thought. Here is what I am gonna start testing:

Lands: 18
4x Flooded Strand
4x Windswept Heath
3x Tundra
3x Tropical Island
1x Forest
3x Island

Blue: 17
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Counterbalance
3x Daze
2x Ponder

White: 4
4x Swords to Plowshares

Green: 11
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Werebear
2x Noble Hierarch
1x Krosan Grip

Gold: 5
2x Trygon Predator
2x Rhox War Monk (considering swapping for Wisescale Serpent)
1x Mystic Enforcer

Artifacts: 5
4x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Vedalken Shackles

Sideboard:
3x Gaddock Teeg
2x Tormod's Crypt
3x Blue Elemental Blast
3x Engineered Explosives
1x Krosan Grip
3x Pithing Needle

Ok so here are my thoughts on it: first off, I wanted to keep the CMC of the cards within the deck similar to other successful counterbalance decks. At the moment I have 16 cmc 1 cards (which might be slightly high due to the number of tops), 15 cmc 2 cards (probably the minimum for any deck that does not play spell snare-a card which I really do not like), 6 cmc 3 cards (on the higher end which I appreciate-casting them is easy due to the increased number of mana producers), 1 cmc 4 (not sure if this is correct, seeing as so many others had 2-3), 4 cmc 5 (force of will for the win). I think these are good numbers for abusing countertop, though, admittedly, I wish I had one more cmc 2 card, but I really don't want a 4th daze, and I have never been successful with Predicts. So hopefully this will work out ok.

Card choices: while I know that previous lists usually use 4 ponder and 17 lands, I felt that I was too often keeping a one land hand with cantrips, something I really do not want to keep doing considering chalice at 1/trinisphere, a wasteland (if the single land is a nonbasic), a even a counterspell can do you in. So I feel that the 18 land is a step in the right direction.

The land base has also changed a little bit: initially I had a single plains instead of the third island. This change was made due to my desire to include vedalken shackles, a card which I think is a good way to increase the chances of gaining card advantage (card quality+countertop can only get you so far). I kept the single forest so that I could still hit blood/magus of the moon/back2basics with explosives. Additionally, I decided on a single forest over a plains because if my tundras get hit by wasteland/extirpate, it is far less devastating than if my tropicals were gone.

I am, however, unsure if I have enough islands/lands to even be playing shackles: I figured playing/activating it would not be so hard due to the mana acceleration, but it definitely limits my targets. It is this aspect which might make or break noble hierarch for me (as I would add two more lands in their place). I am also uncertain if the card should simply be the O-ring that I was playing before, but I am not enjoying O-Ring as much as I used to due to the fact that, like sower of temptation, it is only pseudo removal, as its removal negates its effect. It is for this reason as well, that I run Enforcer over sower of temptation, but I am still unsure if that is the correct choice. I could just forgo both and run another shackles, but I feel a 4cmc card is good to have, though maybe not as a 1 of...

Lately Rhox War Monk has been not much more than a FoW chuck-thus I want to try out Wisescale Serpent at some point. I am not sure if this is the best idea, but only testing will tell.

Please let me know your thoughts!

I'd first cut rhox war monk and put in an EE and a Pithing Needle to make the deck more stable. Cut a STP and a Top for two trinket mages. Last thing I would change is cutting an island to a plains. Other things you might want to try is another shackles and Sower of temptation to gain leverage in the game and making it more controlish. Another thing I could see is uping Ponder to 3-4 because that sorcery matters when goyf comes to play. I was wondering how Teeg is working in the SB. Why not choose stifle over it, I personally like stifle for game two on the play to cripple mana bases early on. That is what I would do to the deck. I'm currently working on my own with out threshold because it seems like a waste for mongoose and werebear to be in the deck. I do like mongoose though, but seems like a deadbeat in mid to late game. Just a couple of thoughts on the deck

[Damnosus]

I'd first cut rhox war monk and put in an EE and a Pithing Needle to make the deck more stable. Cut a STP and a Top for two trinket mages. Last thing I would change is cutting an island to a plains. Other things you might want to try is another shackles and Sower of temptation to gain leverage in the game and making it more controlish. Another thing I could see is uping Ponder to 3-4 because that sorcery matters when goyf comes to play. I was wondering how Teeg is working in the SB. Why not choose stifle over it, I personally like stifle for game two on the play to cripple mana bases early on. That is what I would do to the deck. I'm currently working on my own with out threshold because it seems like a waste for mongoose and werebear to be in the deck. I do like mongoose though, but seems like a deadbeat in mid to late game. Just a couple of thoughts on the deck

The purpose of Rhox War Monk is to have a better game against swarm aggro. I would definitely remove him if I had access to a fourth color (for either pyroclasm, or engineered plague), but since this is still three color, I am not sure his removal would be such a good idea. While good at certain things, trinket mage/tool box does not help with this weakness, meaning it is probably unnecessary.

I removed two ponders specifically because they are unnecessary with higher land counts.

The single plains was replaced with an island simply because of shackles-as it stands now, I still don't think I have enough islands/lands to be running it (but I need to do more testing). Heck I would remove the single forest if it weren't for blood moon effects.

I really don't know whether or not to run sower over enforcer. Enforcer lays the beatdown on certain decks that we have problems with. Sower gets hit by a single bolt and suddenly combat changes a great deal. I guess I am just afraid of using sower-anyone care to convert me?

As for stifle, this is not tempo thresh-I would run it if I could capitalize on it, but countertop thresh is too slow to do so. Teeg on the other hand, is fantastic against decks that we have problems with, namely landstill (no more wrath/humility/planeswalkers), and geddon stax (no geddon/smokestack/chalice).

I would love to get rid of threshold as well, but we still need that 2cmc for countertop. Since werebear is really the only candidate for that slot in u/g/w thresh, he needs to be run.

[ShiftyKapree]

I'll show u my build this weekend. I cut thresh completely out of the deck. If you run Daze, CB, and tarmogoyf you should have enough 2cmc spells in the deck. I personally like sower bc it steals a goyf or something better. I mean in the mirror he steals a mystic if they play it. He's good on so many levels even against Landstill. Also against burn I wouldnt worry about Bolt and sower in that match up bc you should be winning bc of counter balance. Another thing is that you have counters to keep it alive

[Damnosus]

I'll show u my build this weekend. I cut thresh completely out of the deck. If you run Daze, CB, and tarmogoyf you should have enough 2cmc spells in the deck. I personally like sower bc it steals a goyf or something better. I mean in the mirror he steals a mystic if they play it. He's good on so many levels even against Landstill. Also against burn I wouldnt worry about Bolt and sower in that match up bc you should be winning bc of counter balance. Another thing is that you have counters to keep it alive

12 cmc 2 cards just feels low considering it is the most important number for countertop.

I wasn't thinking about the burn matchup in regards to sower-I was thinking more like goyfsligh, Zoo, anything with black. I just feel like it is too easy for the opponent to manipulate the card.

[sauce]

cb main & postboard cop:r/aegis of honor > burn.
i run 1 aegis of honor because we have burn decks in our meta.
it acts like cb #5 because they won't be casting any of their burn ever again :)

[memnarch]

I'm seeing less and less mongoose now days, so shackles looks better and better with the giant targetable fatties running around. Wouldn't you rather just run more utility. Many of the decks that made it in T8 at GP ran countertop. And I see in some of these lists mongoose is missing. I took Gabriel Nassif's UGW control list and made some changes especially the sideboard. I think shackles >> sower. I think when the new angel comes out in reborn I may trade one shackle and one predator for em.

land 20
4 flooded strand
1 island
3 polluted delta
4 tropical island
4 tundra
4 underground sea

creatures 11
4 dark confident
4 tarmogoyf
3 trygon predator

spells 29
4 brainstorm
4 counterbalance
4 force of will
4 sensei's divining top
3 vedalken shackles
4 swords to plowshares
2 stifle
4 daze

SB
4 leyline of void
4 engineered plague
3 krosan grip
4 tormod's crypt

[Jujuhawk]

My list:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Rhox War-Monk
2 Sower of Temptation

3 Stifle
3 Sensei's divining Top
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Daze
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will

19 Land

4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

War Monk didn't really do anything, I played against burn in top 4 but it just ate a fireblast, I won with cb/top both games I won. It should probably just be werebear or something. Maybe the new gro dude when arb comes out.

[Damnosus]

My list:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Rhox War-Monk
2 Sower of Temptation

3 Stifle
3 Sensei's divining Top
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Daze
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will

19 Land

4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

War Monk didn't really do anything, I played against burn in top 4 but it just ate a fireblast, I won with cb/top both games I won. It should probably just be werebear or something. Maybe the new gro dude when arb comes out.

RWM isn't necessarily for burn. It is mostly for fast aggro.

[Jujuhawk]

Obviously, but it seems like it's non existant in my meta aside from a few burn, so it's pretty unnecessary.

[johanessen]

Okay this is the Counter-Top UGw Threshold list i'm gonna play next tournament . . . i need your opinion.

Lands - 19
3 Islands
4 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand

Creatures - 11
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Trinket Mage
2 Trygon Predator
2 Sower of Temptation

Spells - 18
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares

Permanents - 12
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei Divining Top
2 Vedalken Shackles
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle

SideBoard - 15
4 Meddling Mage
2 Hydroblast
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Chalice of the Void
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Krosan Grip

Trying to abuse of trinket's tutor. maindeck and sideboard.
Academy Ruins - Yes or not? Maybe in a 20-land list?
Lands. 19 are enough? Remember I play Daze.
Daze in a semi-control list. Yes or not? Maybe 3?
Pithing Needle Maindeck, yes or not?
Meddling Mage on sideboard. Thoughts?

This is a mixed from Nassif and Probasco lists.

Thanks for help

[Damnosus]

Depending on your meta, consider changing the deltas to heaths and then add a single forest so that you are more resilient to wasteland (and don't die from extirpate on tropical), and so that you can get that third color for engineered explosives in order to get rid of moon effects.

1-2 academy ruins might also be a good idea as you will win counterbalance wars due to recurring EE, and if you lose a shackles you can use it to bring it back/abuse counterbalance.

I find 4 daze to be kinda overkill. Go down to 3 and either add a counterspell, or something else that you think will help. Keep in mind the number of cmc 2 cards in your deck for counterbalance purposes.

I would also consider getting rid of meddling mages in the board-he is good against certain things, like combo, but counterbalance is already good in those matchups, and he doesn't really help you in the control matchup as he will die very fast. Maybe Teeg if you expect to see any sort of control and he is also good against combo (no dread return/breakthrough/ad nauseum/tendrils).

Chalice? Why? You can only set it at 0 (as every other number hurts you) and there are better things that you can use.

[johanessen]

Meddling naming Krosan Grip it's good also.

Chalice @ 0 and @ 1 while you attack kills nauseam. nauseam decks are very common in barcelona

[ShiftyKapree]

You should be beating control before you even get a chance to board. The deck is a sit and wait situation anymore. You wait till its safe and have a counter war to resolve a goyf. The deck is no longer thresh its more controling. 4 tops is an overkill for running mages along with it. I personally like pithing needle in the maindeck it stops wastelands, fetches, and vials. My biggest is why should I run two Sowers and two shackles. I have debated this for awhile and thinking of cutting sowers. Ruins can be a hit or miss. If you run one ruins your gonna need to draw it to be affective. THe thing about it hurts ur mana base so much.

[Clark Kant]

How do you guys feel about somthing like this build post Alara Reborn?

Lands: 18
4x Flooded Strand
4x Windswept Heath
3x Tundra
3x Tropical Island
1x Forest
1x Plains
2x Island

Blue: 20
4x Ponder
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x Counterbalance

White: 4
4x Swords to Plowshares

Green: 6
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Noble Hierarch

Gold: 10
4x Qasali Pridemage
2x Wisescale Serpent
2x Rhox War Monk

Artifacts: 4
4x Sensei's Divining Top

It's kind of a intermediatary between Threshold and Midrange Aggro. But with everyone playing pinpoint removal these days, and practically no one playing Wrath of God, increasing the number of threats doesn't seem like a bad thing.

[sauce]

How do you guys feel about somthing like this build post Alara Reborn?

Lands: 18
4x Flooded Strand
4x Windswept Heath
3x Tundra
3x Tropical Island
1x Forest
1x Plains
2x Island

Blue: 20
4x Ponder
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x Counterbalance

White: 4
4x Swords to Plowshares

Green: 6
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Noble Hierarch

Gold: 10
4x Qasali Pridemage
2x Wisescale Serpent
2x Rhox War Monk

Artifacts: 4
4x Sensei's Divining Top

It's kind of a intermediatary between Threshold and Midrange Aggro. But with everyone playing pinpoint removal these days, and practically no one playing Wrath of God, increasing the number of threats doesn't seem like a bad thing.

not feeling the serpent, run 2 vendillion cliques in that spot, its way better imho.
also, w/o mongoose, you don't need 4 ponders (since you already have 4 tops too to find stuff + 4 brainstorms), i think cutting the ponders down to 2 and running 2 shackles or 2 sowers is way better. up the land to 19? also is non basic hate really prevalent in your meta, you seem to be running too many basics, i know it is nice to not care bout wasteland/magus, but how often does it happen in your metagame?

wouldnt running like 1 island and 1 forest be enough? it seems this way you can still k-grip bloodmoon and rushing river the magus if you ran those.
obv if your whole metagame is dragon stompy and staxx, your land base is probably correct.

[godryk]

I'm not too sold on Hierarch as a 2-of, I think it's the kind of card you want to see in your first seven to get the most of it, I wouldn't play any if I were to play only 2.

[Clark Kant]

I'm surprised that you're not sold on Serpent. It seems like a strong fit in threshold. By the time it can attack, it's atleast a 3/3. But if you play a Brainstorm, it's 6/6. It also pumps with Top, Ponder, and Predict. That's pretty synergic.

But I suppose cutting some Ponders along with Serpent works too. The deck could use an evasive flyer like Mystic Enforcer as a 2 of.

Hierach seems viable because the deck plays on a higher curve than most thresh lists.

[TheRock]

After only some testing, I've found that Coatl is even better than I originally imagined it to be. I think that running him is better than running Predator and Clique against the mirror and I'm now 100% positive that I would never run Clique or more than 1 Mongoose MD again. I can win Goyf wars by doing nothing other than using a Top or Brainstorm -> that's way too good not to at least try and most decks only have prayers to stop something that size once you have any countermagic at all.

I would never run less than 2, and if I had to, I would cut a Daze for him.

[Damnosus]

Sorry that this is a slight tangent, but, for those of you running 4x werebear, do you think that pridemage could possibly replace him as maybe a 2 of? I don't think getting rid of the bear entirely for pridemage is a good idea due to him being bigger in the late game, but I feel that removing a couple might be a good move. I mean other than adding extra mana (which is somewhat useful-not so much in lists with higher land counts), werebear is simply a medium sized beatstick. Pridemage, however, helps to win goyf wars, is better in the early game, and can even-with a little help-nuke tops (swing in with predator and name the top to destroy, then in response to the opponent tapping it, nail it with the pridemage).

The inclusion of coatl makes this an even better idea because he fills the beater position that werebear held. Plus this moves the entire deck further out of graveyard reliance.

[memnarch]

I'm not too sold on Hierarch as a 2-of, I think it's the kind of card you want to see in your first seven to get the most of it, I wouldn't play any if I were to play only 2.

I agree. You also want to see the exalted ability build up. Although I think its a very good card I'm not sure if its right for the deck. It fits better in an more aggressive deck. Mana acceleration isn't necessarily what this deck want's when it can just slow the game down and keep dropping lands.

[brazil]

Maybe I missed it (I only went back 2 pages) but has anyone tried Jenara, Asura of War in this deck yet? I have been playing around with running her as a 2-of in place of Mystic Enforcer and I really like her. Here is my list:

Lands 18:
4x Tropical Island
3x Tundra
3x Flooded Strand
2x Polluted Delta
4x Wasteland
2x Island

Threats 14:
4x Nimble Mongoose
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Meddling Mage
2x Jenara, Asura of War

Draw/Counter 21:
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
3x Spell Snare
3x Stifle
4x Brainstorm
3x Portent

Utility 7:
3x Swords to Plowshares
2x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Krosan Grip

--------------------------------------

Sideboard 15:
2x Krosan Grip
3x Tormod's Crypt
3x Trygon Predator
3x Pithing Needle
2x Hydroblast
2x Blue Elemental Blast


The Portent in the deck is run in place of Ponder mainly due to the existence of Meddling Mage in the main deck. It also helps with the mana denial plan.

Jenara, Asura of War makes a nice 3-drop beater and ramps up larger than Mystic Enforcer can get. Most of the games are decided before this happens though. The loss of Protection from Black has not seemed to make that big of a difference. Swords to Plowshares easily wastes a Tombstalker which I found to be the only real threat that Mystic Enforcer had an edge on. The EOT +1/+1 counter on Jenara makes her a formidable opponent to deal with. The one thing I don't like about her is that she can be hit by Smother (which I have yet to run into, but expect that I will). I won a few games with just a Tarmogoyf/Meddling Mage mixture with a single Jenara on the table. When Jenara hit the board I did not even have threshold yet and still won the games.

Most of my losses were single game losses, testing on MWS in M-L league and mwsplay.net. This card has yet to be tested by myself IRL so I'm interested in seeing what people have to say about her.

[Volt]

Just off the top of my head, it seems like Noble Hierarch and Lorescale Coatl go nicely together. Turn 1 Hierarch, Turn 2 Coatl is pretty good. That probably forces Mongoose out of the deck, though, and I'm not so sure yet how I feel about that.

EDIT: Maybe there's still room for Mongoose, after all.

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Lorescale Coatl

4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Island
1 Forest

[xsockmonkeyx]

Just off the top of my head, it seems like Noble Hierarch and Lorescale Coatl go nicely together. Turn 1 Hierarch, Turn 2 Coatl is pretty good. That probably forces Mongoose out of the deck, though, and I'm not so sure yet how I feel about that.

EDIT: Maybe there's still room for Mongoose, after all.

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Lorescale Coatl

4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Island
1 Forest

Try my list, its awesome:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Lorescale Coatl
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare
4 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Sower of Temptation
1 Krosan Grip
1 Oblivion Ring/Counterspell (flip a coin)

(18 lands)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
1 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

4 Hydroblast
2 Pithing Needle
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Trygon Predator
3 Krosan Grip
2 Path to Exile

Its not perfect, but it's the first time Ive been happy with the list in over a month. It seems like Ive tried everything it seems in that beater role. Mongoose, Trinket Mage, Trygon Predator, Werebear, Mystic Enforcer, Rhox War Monk, all of them. Coatl performed better than them all and was overall just AMAZING, and I hate using the word 'amazing' when describing anything in magic. [run-on sentence] In testing tonight, he was always 6/6 or bigger at the end of the game, averaged around a 7.5/7.5, and I can think of only a few instances I wished it were something else from that previous list of cards, whereas there were more instances I was glad that it was blue for FoW payment. [/run-on sentence] The Sowers and the Oblivion Ring/Counterspell slots are the only "weak" ones - i/e the ones im still testing. Perhaps you could try the 3 Heirarch in those slots. The sideboard is solid but could use some work.

[i_need_the_extra_turns]

@ xsockmonkeyx

Your list looks really nice.

A basic list:

18 Lands:
4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

The core:
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
That is quite obviously.

3 Daze
3 Spell Snare

3 Daze and 3 spell snare is also the right balance. And you definitely want to play spell snares.

The Beaters:
4 Goyf
3-4 Lorescale Coatl
+2 Sower of Temptation/Trygon Predator/Rhox War Monk \\The utility slot

+2 Flex. slots Maybe: O-Ring, Counterspell, 4th spell snare, 4th daze, Noble Hierach, etc.



I would play 4 Coatl + 2 Sower/Predator and 1 O-Ring in the flex. slot +1 random card^^.

[johanessen]

I would never play basic plains or forest.

Rest of the list looks fine to me, maybe best option is the Sower

[Jak]

I would never play basic plains or forest.

Rest of the list looks fine to me, maybe best option is the Sower

Care to explain? There are still Moon effects and Wastelands in the format. Having the ability to get the mana you need to actually cast your win conditions is important.

[Heresy]

My curve for CBalance
1 cc : 20
2 cc : 12
3 cc : 7
5 cc : 4

My decklist
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Lorescale Coatl

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Oblivion Ring

3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
4 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Island

I dont have place for Spell Snare... any advices? I tried to make a cool curve for Cbalance, is 7 3cc enough?

[KrzyMoose]

I dont have place for Spell Snare... any advices? I tried to make a cool curve for Cbalance, is 7 3cc enough?

-4 Noble Hierarch
-1 Daze
+3 Spell Snare
+2 Sower of Temptation

The Snake guy is pretty much insane. I'm pretty sure Sower of Temptation needs to be at least a 2-of in every deck, now. (Shackles could be okay, too, I suppose).

[sauce]

shackles wins games that you would otherwise lose.
nothing is as back breaking vs suiblack as yoinking their tombstalker.

[Volt]

Is the snake really that insane? I've been doing a little bit of testing, and so far it merely seems goodish.

[ParkerLewis]

shackles wins games that you would otherwise lose.
nothing is as back breaking vs suiblack as yoinking their tombstalker.

Yeah, because 5 lands against sui black happens all the time : )

[KrzyMoose]

Is the snake really that insane? I've been doing a little bit of testing, and so far it merely seems goodish.

For one mana a turn, with a Top out, you give him 2 counters each turn.

People are saying that he's not a good topdeck, which may be true in the abstract. But, if you are in topdeck mode and you don't have a Top, then you're not winning the game, anyway. By the time you get to topdeck mode, you should already have a Top and plenty of land.

I think he's pretty good. (Though, I should mention that I'm running UGBW NLU. But, I think the same principles apply here).

[sauce]

Yeah, because 5 lands against sui black happens all the time : )

im playing the nassif mana base, it happens more often than you think.

[Heresy]

-4 Noble Hierarch
-1 Daze
+3 Spell Snare
+2 Sower of Temptation

The Snake guy is pretty much insane. I'm pretty sure Sower of Temptation needs to be at least a 2-of in every deck, now. (Shackles could be okay, too, I suppose).

I feel like Hierarch being busted with turn 2 snake and winning goyf wars... I don't want to remove it without any reasons.

[Jaiminho]

I feel like Hierarch being busted with turn 2 snake and winning goyf wars... I don't want to remove it without any reasons.

It doesn't do anything by itself, because 1 damage doesn't count for shit. Accelerating mana is not needed in a deck that's so not mana hungry. When packing a higher curve, running 1 or 2 lands and 3 or 2 useful spells implies a much better effect than running 4 useless creatures.

[johanessen]

Care to explain? There are still Moon effects and Wastelands in the format. Having the ability to get the mana you need to actually cast your win conditions is important.

With this list (wich i think it's optimal)

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Lorescale Coatl
2 Trygon Predator
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare
4 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Vedalken Shackles


4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
2 Island


I think going for islands is the best option

[Jak]

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
2 Island

I think going for islands is the best option

It still doesn't work against Moons or Wasteland. All of your creatures require green mana.

[memnarch]

Is the snake really that insane? I've been doing a little bit of testing, and so far it merely seems goodish.

Volt I'm really with you on this one. Lorescale seems like a slightly better version of Quirion Dryad. The Dryad gets huge sometimes too. But I would favor a creature that will consistently no matter what grow in size and be able to fly over Goyfs and get in damage early and effectively, that creature is Jenara asura of war. A solid beater I think that Uwg thresh has been needing for a while.

[Clark Kant]

Is there a particular reason that none of the post-shards builds this past page seem to be running Qasali Pridemage?

The flexibility it offers is absurd.

Your opponents basically can't play Counterbalance or Standstill as long as you have it on the table. And it blows up Oblivion Rings, Veldalken Shackles and a huge number of other artifacts and enchantments that just about every deck plays.

It beats for 3.

It wins you Goyf stalemates.

And it only costs 2 mana (cheaper than Oblivion Ring). A walking beating Seal of Primoridium, what more could you possibly ask for?

My creaturebase would probably consist of...

4x Qasali Pridemage
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Lorescale Coatl
2x Sower of Temptation

The Coatl could be cut for Mystic Enforcer or Jenara and/or maybe Rhox War Monk or Trygon Predator or Meddling Mage or Nimble Mongoose or Noble Hierach or something. But the Pridemage seems like it should be a staple in the deck.

[4eak]

@ Clark Kant


Is there a particular reason that none of the post-shards builds this past page seem to be running Qasali Pridemage?

While I love the card, I just don't like it in this deck so much. The mana efficiency of Pridemage is excellent, but at 2cc he is too easily answered by opposing Counterbalances (a time when I need his services most). I think Krosan Grip and Trygon Predator are better in this deck just because they usually avoid Counterbalance (and in the case of Grip, all permission in general). I'm an all around K-Grip fanboi.






peace,
4eak

[Adan]

Is there a particular reason that none of the post-shards builds this past page seem to be running Qasali Pridemage?

The flexibility it offers is absurd.

Your opponents basically can't play Counterbalance or Standstill as long as you have it on the table. And it blows up Oblivion Rings, Veldalken Shackles and a huge number of other artifacts and enchantments that just about every deck plays.

It beats for 3.

It wins you Goyf stalemates.

And it only costs 2 mana (cheaper than Oblivion Ring). A walking beating Seal of Primoridium, what more could you possibly ask for?

My creaturebase would probably consist of...

4x Qasali Pridemage
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Lorescale Coatl
2x Sower of Temptation

The Coatl could be cut for Mystic Enforcer or Jenara and/or maybe Rhox War Monk or Trygon Predator or Meddling Mage or Nimble Mongoose or Noble Hierach or something. But the Pridemage seems like it should be a staple in the deck.

@Qasali Pridemage: Yepp. He is insane. Period. Playing him is nearly equal to playing a Meddling Mage on: Counterbalance, Standstill, Dreadnoughts, Survival of the Fittest, Counterbalance, Shackles, Smokestack, Moat, Trinisphere, Blood Moon, Back to Basics, Counterbalance, Jitte, Aether Vial, Chalice of the Void, Counterbalance and - most important - Counterbalance.

When I tested with Clemens (UGw vs. Nassif NLU) I lost every game where he had an early Qasali Pridemage or 2. He's an proactive answer to all the threats listed above and even more. He is a Watchwolf himself and breaks Goyf stalemates by suppoorting your Goyfs.

@Coatl: Hyped and overestimated. It's like O.K., but the investment of vital cantrips to grow it makes it only slightly better than Quirion Dryad. The only difference would be that it grow 3 times bigger than the Dryad when playing a Brainstorm, but that card already has so many purposes that adding a Giant Growth function makes you play it wrong-timed. Additionally the roles of Brainstorm like improving your hand resources or being a Counterspell with a blind CB out still outweight a simple Giant Growth effect and are like way more gamewinning than growing the Coatl which can still be chumped for ages.

@Sower: Don't. Just don't. I've been running Nassif NLU and Sower sucks terribly, as well as the deck itself. He's only good if you can defend him with Counter-Top. And well, you will have already won the game with Counter-Top. The conclusion is that Sower is a winmore card (and well, clunky and situational and dead in a lot of matchups due to it's clunkyness).

[Damnosus]

@Qasali Pridemage: Yepp. He is insane. Period. Playing him is nearly equal to playing a Meddling Mage on: Counterbalance, Standstill, Dreadnoughts, Survival of the Fittest, Counterbalance, Shackles, Smokestack, Moat, Trinisphere, Blood Moon, Back to Basics, Counterbalance, Jitte, Aether Vial, Chalice of the Void, Counterbalance and - most important - Counterbalance.

When I tested with Clemens (UGw vs. Nassif NLU) I lost every game where he had an early Qasali Pridemage or 2. He's an proactive answer to all the threats listed above and even more. He is a Watchwolf himself and breaks Goyf stalemates by suppoorting your Goyfs.


I really like the idea of Pridemage, but I am unsure what to remove for him. What is the creature base that you and Clemens have been running?

Creature wise, at the moment I am running 4 goyf, 4 werebear, 2 RWM, 2 Trygon, and 1 enforcer. My guess would be that getting rid of werebear for 4 pridemage is the best idea, but I am not totally sure. Lately though, werebear has been really crappy as the deck takes so long to get thresh (usually he is just a chump blocker), makes the deck more vulnerable to Relic, and hasn't really helped in the mana department because I am running 18 lands now.

Also, what is your opinion of spell snare? I have noticed that a bunch of decks have started running 3 daze and 3 snares. Sounds interesting, but I am so afraid of running the card because it is so narrow.

[johanessen]

I really like the idea of Pridemage, but I am unsure what to remove for him. What is the creature base that you and Clemens have been running?

Creature wise, at the moment I am running 4 goyf, 4 werebear, 2 RWM, 2 Trygon, and 1 enforcer. My guess would be that getting rid of werebear for 4 pridemage is the best idea, but I am not totally sure. Lately though, werebear has been really crappy as the deck takes so long to get thresh (usually he is just a chump blocker), makes the deck more vulnerable to Relic, and hasn't really helped in the mana department because I am running 18 lands now.

Also, what is your opinion of spell snare? I have noticed that a bunch of decks have started running 3 daze and 3 snares. Sounds interesting, but I am so afraid of running the card because it is so narrow.

-4 Werebear. -2 Rhox War Monk, -1 Enforcer

Then you can add Qasali Pride Mage, or Lorescale Coatl, or Sower of Temptation, or whatever.

[Clark Kant]

Why cut Enforcer? Enforcer is quite good. It's honestly just as good as Sower in most situations that Sower is good in but always useful, even against combo or pure control.

RWM isn't bad either.

But, yes absolutely 100% replace the 4 Werebear with Pridemage.

[diffy]

To complement what my inarticulate Team-mate just said:



@Coatl: Hyped and overestimated.


Also, see here (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=339226&postcount=214).



@Qasali Pridemage: Yepp.


Qasali Pridemage is good. Very good. Like that good. I've been playing him since he first appeared on the spoiler and every single one of my testing partners has been amazed by him, as have I.
He mainly fills the same role as Trygon Predator, but with some significant advantages:
He's a better beater due to coming down earlier and due to swinging for more. Watchwolf stats are still pretty good and win games, even with all those ridiculous guys in the format.
Him costing two also allows you cut down on those fillers you only play because they costs two (Daze, Predict, Werebear, Hoofprints of the Stag, I'm looking at you!) - you do have to have a significant amount of two-cost stuff (like 14 absolute minimum, better numbers being 16 or even 18) for Counterbalance to work on any level, after all. Qasali Pridemage greatly helps reaching that number without having to turn to sub-par cards.
Also, Exalted is pretty good at improving your Aggro-plan (Tarmogoyf) because it helps you to dodge the most prominent removal spell in the Format (Tarmogoyf).
Also, note the Type2 (?) synergy of Exalted + Rhox War Monk. It wins games (especially against your worse matchups like Tribal Aggro and Goyf Sligh).
Furthermore, he's not really that much worse against Counterbalance than Trygon Predator is, mainly because three mana spells are far from guaranteed to resolve with more and more builds packing 5+ three-costed spells like they should. Additionally improving Qasali's relative strength against Counterbalance is the fact that the later costs at least three mana in the mirror (you always want to at least be Daze-proof, if not FoW backed-up when dropping Counterbalance) which gives you the time to drop the former proactively more often than not. For sure your opponent can then just play a removal on your guy and pay you a visit while you're in Frown-Town, however, Trygon Predator suffers from this problem too. For this very same reason, Qasali Pridemage is also much better against any non-Counterbalance Artefacts/Enchantments out there (or against all, actually, at least if he resolves): you don't give your opponent a full turn to find a removal and therewith counteract your solution which is huge, especially against your favourite newcomer in the format i.e. Vedalken Shackles.

Conclusion: don't play him. He's horrible. I want all the tech-advantage on my side, after all.



@Sower: Don't. Just don't.

I often hear people argue for Sower's strength (and ensuing inclusion) stress the fact that he's awesome because he fills double duty, being a beater and a removal, often warping unfavourable board positions out of nowhere etc.. This supposed strength of Sower is the single largest thing that bugs me about him, because, in my opinion, this advantage of his only adds inconsistency to a deck that wins solely on the back of consistency:
Sower of Temptation isn't reliably a beater/wincondition because your opponent doesn't always have a guy on the table.
And, more importantly, Sower of Temptation isn't reliably a removal because your opponent just has to find a single removal in N turns (where N is his lifetotal/your clock) to reset the board-state to the situation it was pre-Sower (i.e. positive for him and Welcome to Frown-Town for you).

Also, if you manage to refute this first point of critique, or if the exposed faultinesses are something you can live with, there is still the fact that, in my opinion, Sower of Temptation is just straight up worse than Vedalken Shackles (and no-one plays 4 of them to date, making Sower not needed):
Vedalken Shackles are much, much harder to kill.
Vedalken Shackles act as recursive removal which especially is excellent in your worse matchups (i.e. against anything aggressive) and not bad in a single one.
Vedalken Shackles isn't really any slower than Sower of Temptation:
Against "I have only Goyf as clock".deck, you can always shackle their Goyf because you have enough time to hit your Island-drops due to their clock being atrocious.
Against everything else (i.e. aggressive decks), you don't have to hit as many Island-drops because their guys aren't that big: you can fetch a non-Island basic early and miss a land drop and still be able to steal their guys.

The two decks against which Vedalken Shackles are inferior to Sower of Temptation are Aggro Loam and anything with Dreadnought - and against those, Sower of Temptation isn't huge either because of Stifle and (recurring) Wastelands making 4 mana and a resolved trigger something not overly probable.




Also, what is your opinion of spell snare?

Spell Snare is awesome: at the top tables* you'll mainly face competent players, and against those Daze most of the time does no more than reveal for 2 with Counterbalance and pitch to Force of Will whereas Spell Snare counters every spell you'd want to counter in the first place (especially Counterbalance). Therefore a 3/3 split is totally fine, and playing a full set of Spell Snares is also reasonable.

*: This is the location for which you should build your decks: a 3-3 or 4-2 is just as good/bad as a 0-6 - it's not top8/in prize range and therewith an irrelevant result.

Lists will be posted after this weekend's huge-ah Event in Annécy.

[johanessen]

bla bla

I like your point of view, also think that shackles are far better than sower.

About Qasali Pridemage... i'm not decided. Trygon wins games against Staxx, Affinitys, Enchantress, ... Qasali not. But Qasali wins to ****Humility landstills NOT - Jaiminho has it****, white aggroloams, and counterbalance. That's true nowadays 30% of decks runs counterbalance. Can make a try.

About Lorescale Coatl... i first had the same impression than you. It's like an upgrade of Dryad. But if you don't get angry with counters and play carefully, i think it's way better, non-graveyard dependant that 3 copies call me to try.

Spell snare wise... i think a split of 3-3 along with daze is the best option. But four spell snares i think it's too much

Let's see how Annecy goes

[Jaiminho]

But Qasali wins to Humility

No way it kills Humility.

[Mordel]

At this stage in the game, I am just fooling around with the deck and am not really looking for optimal builds etc. With that said, I have been fooling with a build that has a creature setup that looks something like this:

4x Tarmogoyf
4x Noble Hierarch
3x Rhox War Monk
3X Qasali Pridemage

I know that the hierarchs are likely to create a great deal of contention and unless you're qrguing their exclusion or inclusion for someone else's benefit, don't worry about it. I'll probably end up cutting them if I end up taking a really hard run at the archetype.

In the mean time though, the seven exalted sources with the RWM create some fucking scary life swing situations. Five spiritlinked damage on turn three is pretty wild with a daze or FoW backing it up along with a CB a turn or so later. Having a lot of fun with that right now.

While I am posting, this is the sideboard that I am working with right now...

3x Gaddock Teeg
3x Krosan Grip
2X Pithing Needle
2X Umezawa's Jitte
2x Vedalken Shackles
2x Umezawa's Jitte
3x Relic of Progenitus

I just sort of threw some good stuff together for the sb randomly and I have only been playing on mws against playtest buddies and stuff, so I am not targetting a meta or anything.

I figured that grips are always good, especially against other CB's. Teegs are for Dutch Stax. Needles are for...stuff...vials etc? Jittes are for mirrors and matches versus aggro-type strategies. Shackles are for aggro strategies and strategies with few clocks...I don't really like sowers too much thus far, so they got ditched. The relics are for Loam decks and such. As someone that spent a bit playing loam, I found grunts to be a very easy hate piece to overcome.

I am thinking that a B2B belongs in the sideboard if I want to play in an established meta etc. Mages might be better than Teegs too. Yeah.

Edit: I have a question about Shackles: Can I in fact be techy and activate my shackles in response to an o-ring to permanently gain control of a creature a la D&T hijinks or no and if so why? I googled and I found a million different situations that did not involve remotely similar scenarios or I didn't look hard enough. I don't think that it's possible, but I though that I would check.

[_erbs_]

This maybe abit off topic but, based on what ive been reading the UGw Threshold thread is slowly becoming more of Legacy Bant (MidrangeFatties.dec)

With all the creatures coming from different expansions are there reasons why one must play thresh ??

Before the Alara Reborn came the only consistent thresh cards in the deck where:
1. Nimble Mongoose
2. Mystic Enforecer
3. Werebear

But with the advent of alara reborn new cards seems to be more useful and powerful compared to the old thresh creatures.

[Mordel]

As far as I am concerned, the deck has been UGw CB for a long time, but I will call it thresh so people know what I am talking about or out of mere habit. One card with thresh isn't good enough to justify naming the deck after the mechanic imho. Names stick though. Look how everything with black and green is considered "Rock".

[PhanTom_lt]

Nice trick there DiF ;) I was a bit baffled and only noticed your pink text when I tried to quote your post. I can only confirm, the Pridemage is really good. Maindeck answers to Pernicious Deed are awesome. It also helped me rape Stax and not the other way around. I actually dropped the Grips now, and keep 2-3 Trygons in the board and 4 Pridemages in main.

[HBspulse]

A minor point of Qasali Pridmage is fitting it into the manabase. I think however this point can be crucial, fetching basics is not that easy if you play the pridemage.

Your mana base will probably look something like this : (e.g. 18 land config)
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Island
4 Flooded strand
4 Windswept heath
3 Tropical island
2 Tundra

- If you fetch a basic island on turn 1 (to ponder e.g.), you won't be able to play qasali on turn 2.
- If you have daze and you want to play qasali on turn 2, you are obliged to play a dual.

Qasali can get you in trouble if your openingshand is light on mana and you play against wastelands.

[Misplayer]

The biggest weaknesses I see in choosing Pridemage over Predator are:

1. Trygon Predator pitches to Force of Will
2. Trygon Predator can be both a proactive and reactive answer to opposing Counterbalances. A 3cc is much more likely to resolve through the CB/Top soft-lock than a 2cc. When you factor in cards like Spell Snare and the fact that you probably want to run 3-4 Pridemage to improve your chances of playing him proactively (Trygon usually only occupies 2 slots), I'd lean towards Trygon.

That's not to say that I haven't been convinced of the strength of this card, because it looks really good and there have been many good points made here backed up by testing to demonstrate that. I'm just hesistant to cut Trygon for it.

[Happy Gilmore]

4x Tarmogoyf
4x Noble Hierarch
3x Rhox War Monk
3X Qasali Pridemage

3x Gaddock Teeg
3x Krosan Grip
2X Pithing Needle
2X Umezawa's Jitte
2x Vedalken Shackles
2x Umezawa's Jitte
3x Relic of Progenitus



With that creature base, your running a completely different list. Enough to deserve its own thread. The whole concept of those cards don't work all that well in a threshold shell. That being said, I think a deck running exhalted creatures could be good because it breaks the goyf symmetry.

[godryk]

- If you fetch a basic island on turn 1 (to ponder e.g.), you won't be able to play qasali on turn 2.
- If you have daze and you want to play qasali on turn 2, you are obliged to play a dual.

Qasali can get you in trouble if your openingshand is light on mana and you play against wastelands.

Yep,that happens to me too, you can't fetch an Island in turn one to waste-proof drop a turn 2 creature, and sometimes that sucks. Noble Hierarch is great in those situations, but probably it has more disadvantages than benefits.

On the other hand: a pacakge of exalted creatures = guaranteed fun.

[Jaiminho]

The biggest weaknesses I see in choosing Pridemage over Predator are:

1. Trygon Predator pitches to Force of Will
(...)

Seriously, people... STOP! There are already too many cards to pitch to Force of Will in this deck, so shush! It only matters when the card is completely dead otherwise, which it's not.

[Jujuhawk]

Seriously, people... STOP! There are already too many cards to pitch to Force of Will in this deck, so shush! It only matters when the card is completely dead otherwise, which it's not.

Predator is sometimes dead, and yes, it does matter.

[rsaunder]

Predator is sometimes dead, and yes, it does matter.When is a flying beater dead? And what decks don't have things to naturalize once a turn?

[Mordel]

With that creature base, your running a completely different list. Enough to deserve its own thead. The whole concept of those cards don't work all that well in a threshold shell. That being said, I think a deck running exhalted creatures could be good because it breaks the goyf symmetry.

It's more of a CB bant deck, I suppose. In all honesty though, the actual base strikes me as pretty uwg thresh as:

4 [CST] Brainstorm
3 [DD2] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
3 [LRW] Ponder
4 [CS] Counterbalance
2 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top

There's no predict and no back to basics main like my older builds have, but seems pretty threshish still, it's just I am not bothering with wisescale coatl yet and am not bothering with mongoose at the moment for the sake of including hierarchs.

[ReAnimator]

And what decks don't have things to naturalize once a turn?

ANT, Gobo's, Canadian Thresh, Bg, Zoo, Rg.

[rsaunder]

ReAnimator, do I know you from elsewhere? SCGGD?

I disagree: against ANT and gobbos, blowing up artifacts can be very helpful (and against gobbos, another creature never hurts.) It's a little clunky but it helps out the late game.

Can Thresh, I agree with whole heartedly. It's something they should probably bring in against you.

[ReAnimator]

ReAnimator, do I know you from elsewhere? SCGGD?

I disagree: against ANT and gobbos, blowing up artifacts can be very helpful (and against gobbos, another creature never hurts.) It's a little clunky but it helps out the late game.

Can Thresh, I agree with whole heartedly. It's something they should probably bring in against you.

Yeah that's me, i'm ReAnimator most places. =)

I guess trygon is ok vs goblins, but they only have 4 artifacts, and wouldnt' coatl be better since it is bigger?
Also if you are swinging with trygon (turn 4) and Ant has a bunch of artifacts in play for you to blow up, haven't you already won?

[rsaunder]

The idea with ANT is that it seals the game if they're in that position. It's not great as a preventitive measure, but cuts down on the "oops I win" chant+IT shannanagins. But yeah, coatl would be better in that case. I'm not sure against goblins because he's so easy to remove the first turn he comes down and if you're just planning on growing him, he's basically a time walk for them.

[ReAnimator]

The idea with ANT is that it seals the game if they're in that position. It's not great as a preventitive measure, but cuts down on the "oops I win" chant+IT shannanagins. But yeah, coatl would be better in that case. I'm not sure against goblins because he's so easy to remove the first turn he comes down and if you're just planning on growing him, he's basically a time walk for them.

In your goblin example, that 1 toughness is only relevant if you don't have a top in play, if you do coatl is just straight up better, same with it being turn 4+ as you can play a ponder or brainstorm, and again if you have top in play, then they are looking at a 4/4+, trygon will never do that. Also if it doesn't die that turn it is going to just become a bigger and bigger problem, again trygon will always be a 2/3, it just doesn't seem close to me which i would rather have for that matchup.

[rsaunder]

I'm not saying he's better, just not... good. In most matchups, especially those listed, I'd straight up rather have rhox war monk.

EDIT: wasn't my original arguement something along the lines of "trygon isn't dead really ever" as opposed to "trygon is better than lorescale"?

[DragoFireheart]

Is Path to Exile going to see any play? Considering that most decks use very little basic land, it could be somewhat superior to Swords.

[Jak]

Is Path to Exile going to see any play? Considering that most decks use very little basic land, it could be somewhat superior to Swords.

Even if they have one, that Path still gave them a boost. I think it would be good in SBs if you want some more removal but Swords is just better.

[Wargoos]

I actually played around with that deck and came up with this experimental list:

UGw Qasali Beta 1.0 Testtest no-ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh

creature [10]
1 Mystic Enforcer
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Rhox War Monk
4 Tarmogoyf

instant [19]
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
1 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares

sorcery [4]
4 Ponder

enchantment [5]
4 Counterbalance
1 Oblivion Ring

artifact [5]
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Vedalken Shackles

land [17]
4 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
3 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
3 Windswept Heath
60 cards


Side:
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Pithing Needle
3 Krosan Grip
2 Path to Exile
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Dueling Grounds
2 Jotung Grunt
15 cards

Well, I'm a bit low on landcount. But with 8 cantrips and 4 top's, which i even can tutor for, I don't think there will be to much a problem.
Pridemage and RWM are played for obvious synergestic reasons, and I followed Clemen's tip playing a one-off Shackles and a Oblivion Ring as awesome Tutor targets.
The tutor himself is just hilarious, helping to get cc1-3 spells on top if you have a blind balance and virtually serving as Brainstorm no.5 in those situations.
Hope u folks, like the build.

[rsaunder]

17 isn't all that low; I know DEF ran 16 at least for a time, with 9 cantrip and 3 top. The list I've been fooling around with is 4 cards off from yours, (swap tundra for an island, enforcer and e. tutor for lorescale coatl and one ponder for another Rhox) and it's worked fairly well. Is the e. tutor really worthwhile in a build like this? I haven't run it since "Nonbasic Inquisition"

[Mordel]

The list that I posted is making me want to do some gauntlets now to be honest.
It has about four more creatures than most UGw thresh decks, but honestly...it doesn't seem that different in strategy to me and making a new thread like what happened with geddon and dutch stax seems retarded to me. They continue to cross-polinate regardless and eventually people continue to dwell on the oldest.

Going forward; this is the list that I am working with right now. I made a few slight alterations, like moar daze because I was not starting the game with one often enough and one less top because I was getting them too fucking much. I frequently find myself wishing there was a savannah, but I don't feel like switching anything around now because the deck operates swimmingly under b2b and moons even when there are no hierarchs in play...so long as I have gotten the chance to get a forest and island out...so maybe that isn't so great? Any way, here is the list:




// NAME: PingasBantCBThreshtrehshstre

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ALA] Forest (1)
2 [DD2] Island (1)
1 [ALA] Plains (1)
4 [R] Tropical Island
2 [R] Tundra
3 [ON] Windswept Heath

// Creatures
3 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage

// Spells
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [DD2] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [CS] Counterbalance
1 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3 [CS] Jotun Grunt
SB: 1 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
SB: 3 [DIS] Spell Snare

I ditched an O-ring and the shackles from the sb for snares, which I felt would be more usefull in the land of mws. I rarely found myself having the vaguest desir to bring in shackles and with swords, pridemages and grips, more than two o-rings in the 75 seemed excessive to me.

It has just dawned on me that with the presence of pridemages in the place of predators, I may need to fit a savannah into the mix.

Something very gratifying happened with RWMs and exalted today that I want to share because it made me grin in such an evil way: I was in a third game against a berzerk/fling affinity deck and I got a first turn hierarch, a second turn RMW and a third turn pridemage and another hierarch that I stacked with a BS. All while being backed by a daze, FoW, swords, CB(that I had chosen to not drop early and would thus become FoW fodder probably) and an o-ring. Maybe there wasn't an O-ring and I remember a top somewhere, but either way, it was awesome.

[Wargoos]

Well, I just realize that Shackles + nonblue Basics is pretty much the suck.
I don't know if the Shacks are worth the effort but the tutor seems decent, since he helps you to establish the cbtop-lock faster, searching for the missing piece and isn't death when you have both in hand, since u can just go for shackles or O-Ring.

[Clark Kant]

I originally posted this list in the Gro thread, but honestly, the lines between gro and thresh are so blurred by this point that I don't think it's worth it to differentiate the two. Practically no thresh lists play any threshold creatures at this point...

Land:
4 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Island
1 Forest

Creatures:
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridmage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Lorescale Coatl
4 Cold-Eyed Selkie

Goodstuff:
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares

Simple, straight forward, but damn if it isn't effective. Every creature is a bomb. Hierarach provides both Exalted and mana to accelerate into your threats while fueling Balance + Top. Pridemage, Goyf and Coatl need no explanation. Selkie is ridiculous with 8 Exalted Guys and 4 Coatl. An ancestral recall every turn that has built in evasion, and beats for three is more than you could ever ask for from a creature. You draw an absurd number of cards because of it. Top + Counterbalance is honestly the weakest part of the whole deck, and even that's downright broken.

Before you scoff at Cold-eyed Selkie, compare it to Dark Confidant.

For just one more mana than Confidant, you get...

No need to splash an entire another color
No Lifeloss at all, so you can keep it around for as long as you want
Built in evasion against 75% of the decks in the format
Pitchability to FoW
Automatically pumps Coatl to absurd sizes
The ability to draw a hell of a LOT more than just one card a turn thanks to Exalted. Selkie very often ends up being an Ancestral Recall every turn.

After playing with Selkie, I am convinced that all of those advantages are well worth spending one more mana to play Selkie.

You don't care if your creatures get killed because you play 20 of them, 12 of which are absurdly broken in the deck. Both the Exalted and the Coatls easily help you outclass/answer your opponent's Goyfs. Yes Rhox War Monk works great with 8 Exalted guys too but with all the huge blockers you play (only one guy needs to attack a turn thanks to Exalted), not to mention the ridiculous amount of card draw, and CB+Top to hate on burn and fast aggro and you honestly couldn't care less about lifegain. If you're ever that desperate, you can always StP your own Goyf or Coatl post-combat for a solid 7-10 additional life and not even care much that one of your creatures is dead because you have many others.

Oddly enough, Rancor would be really really strong in this list. A Rancor on Selkie, Coatl, or Goyf would just be broken. And if you play smart, Rancor will never get 2 for 1ed.

[sauce]

i played my baseruption (very similar to nassif's list, maybe 5 card diff main) vs qasali + coatl ugw thresh yesterday w/o orings or predicts or mongoose.
it came down to the draw, first i lost game 1 because i didn't know what the opponent was playing and kept a marginal hand and drew 5 lands in a row even after i fetched 3 times. game2 he had nutty draws.

then i won 2 in a row via sower + shackles and the second via cb + bobby.

here is what i got to say about pridemage...
he is absolutely devastating vs baseruption.. you have to sword him.
cant play shackles or cb w/ him in play.. so they usually play him turn2 to prevent your cb if they don't have counters in hand, he is great.

coatl i did not like, i even shackled one and it grew +1/+1 per turn as i did not want to waste brainstorm on it just to grow it, seemed like a suboptimal play to me.

i am not sure whether pridemage is > mongoose, i would probably say no because he wont help u vs t1lackey and he will get cb'd just as well as mongoose but he is really good vs anything that plays enchantments or artifacts.

i couldn't even draw cards off top w/ him in play if opponent had mana untapped. its that fierce :)

[Mordel]

I have honestly given testing the coatl thought, but I guess I am a scrub and have grown attached to playing RMWs which have dug me out of several holes.

I like how UGw thresh/topbant/whatever plays right now and if I threw a coatl in the mix, it would fuck with how I play my cantrips and me waiting to play them later may not always be a bad plan, but it is an avenue which leads up to play errors that I just don't want to approach yet.

Without two tops in play or a brainstorm, coatl is pretty unimpressive. Even with a ponder and a turn under him, he's a 4/4. I understand coatl's potential, but I prefer something that translates into solid effect the turn it swings a card that is essentially a terravore does not really float my boat right now.

Coatl doesn't strike me as a card that you can just sort of slip into e to basic UGw thresh build. I don't think one would have to change a lot necessarily, but ponder, BS and tops don't really strike me as enough to make coatl scary consistantly.

[HBspulse]

I originally posted this list in the Gro thread, but honestly, the lines between gro and thresh are so blurred by this point that I don't think it's worth it to differentiate the two. Practically no thresh lists play any threshold creatures at this point...

Land:
4 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Island
1 Forest

Creatures:
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridmage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Lorescale Coatl
4 Cold-Eyed Selkie

Goodstuff:
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares


I like your idea. Things I doubt :

- does it reallly fit in this topic? Hell, what is UGW thres these days...
- no daze or spell snare? You are low on counters.
- your land count is quite low. 16. If you haven't got a hierarch, i guess you'll have to mull frequently and even sometimes into oblivion.
- the mana combination. In testing, the colors don't match very well. Pridemage GW, counterbalance UU, fetching basic forest or island isn't obvious.

[soulrack]

Well in Chicago I played this list:

Lands (19):
4x Flooded Strand
3x Windswept Heath
2x Tundra
2x Tropical Island
1x Savannah
3x Island
1x Forest
1x Plains
2x Wasteland

Dudes (11):
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Trygon Predator
1x Mystic enforcer
4x Nimble mongoose (all-star)

Spells (30):
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
3x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Force of Will
3x Daze
2x Spell snare
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Counterbalance
2x Predict

Sideboard (15):
3x Null Rod
2x Mystic Enforcer
4x Meddling Mage
3x Krosan Grip
3x Tormod's Crypt

Only real disappointments I had was my sideboard and predict. I ran into 2 or 3 other thresh builds and beat them without problems. I do feel like I needed more testing though. I was not familiar with how it played against Standstill or Survival which were big punts on my part. I felt trygon predator and Nimble mongoose were too necessary and too good. Trygon blows up Jittes all day long which is a good thing b/c ocassionally countering a jitte just cant happen and active jitte generally wrecks thresh.

[Clark Kant]

I originally posted this list in the Gro thread, but honestly, the lines between gro and thresh are so blurred by this point that I don't think it's worth it to differentiate the two. Practically no thresh lists play any threshold creatures at this point...

Land:
4 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Island
1 Forest

Creatures:
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridmage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Lorescale Coatl
4 Cold-Eyed Selkie

Goodstuff:
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
I like your idea. Things I doubt :

- does it reallly fit in this topic? Hell, what is UGW thres these days...
- no daze or spell snare? You are low on counters.
- your land count is quite low. 16. If you haven't got a hierarch, i guess you'll have to mull frequently and even sometimes into oblivion.
- the mana combination. In testing, the colors don't match very well. Pridemage GW, counterbalance UU, fetching basic forest or island isn't obvious.

- I think so. it's still UGW. it has the same gameplan. most recent thresh lists don't run any thresh guys anyways.

- Yeah, i play fewer counters. daze while fantastic early game starts sucking by the midgame. i am open to making room for 2x spell snare by maybe cutting a lorescale and selkie, but maybe i should just cut ponder instead. i can make due with fewer counters since i draw a lot more cards, and don't have to worry as much about protecting my threats because i play so many of them. and i don't have to worry as much about countering my opponent's goyf since i play 4 goyfs and 4 lorescale that are bigger than their goyfs (thanks to exalted).

- The land count is fine for me. you're playing 4 noble hierach which is pretty much lands 17-20. if you want, you can cut a noble hierach for the 17th land and the would function similarly.

- I agree that the manabase could use some more tweaking. i went
+1 Windswept Heath
-1 Tundra
to the list so that i can always cast the hierach turn one which makes turn 2 daze proof counterbalance easy.

[Aleksandr]

list, etc.

Man, I like that list sooo much that without any testing, I just ordered the Noble Hierarchs and stuff.
If only you can work some Dazes into it...

EDIT:

SB?

I think about something like:

Needle (Deed, Vial, Port, Waste)
Stifle (Deed, storm)
Meddling Mage (Deed, Ad Nauseam, Infernal Tutor)
Krosan Grip (Vial, CB, 'Nought, CoW, random stuff)
Trygon Predator (see above)
Crypt (Loam, Ichorid)
Worship/Propaganda (Goblins, Icho)
EE (anything)
CoP: Red / Rhox W. M. (Burn..)

[gustha]

Hi everyone!
I put up a list in a hurry for a tournament sunday (there's all from gobbo merfolk zoo to landstill aggro loam dredge threshold ant belcher etc., I hope at least 40-45 people). I recently had a look at DIF's NQB/w and was thinking to a similar list. Since I usually play landstill I'd really appreciate suggestions ^^

Lands: 18 (maybe 17 is better?)

2 forest
2 island
1 plains
3 tropical
2 tundra
4 flooded
4 windswept
Creatures: 15

4 Noble Hierarch
3 Qasali Pridemage
1 Trygon Predator
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Rhox War Monk
1 Jenara, Asura of War/Mystic Enforcer/RWM#3 (still undecided)
Draw Engine: 8

4 Brainstom
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Enlightened Tutor
Tutor Toolbox: 4

1 Oring
1 Jitte
1 EE
1 Dueling Grounds (good against all aggro preboard,
good vs icho preboard, awesome with the exalted mechanic)
Permission: 15

4 Fow
3 Daze
3 spell snare
4 counterbalance
Walkers: 1

1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant (late game card, good vs contro,
rhinos on steroids, shynergistic with exalted mechanic; occasionally, cc4 for cb)

The side is still to build, here I hope suggestions will rain! ^^ Anyway, some considerations:
3x Gaddock Teeg -> autoinclude
0/1 jitte
0/2 path to exile
0/1 elspeth
0/1 EE
1/2 relic
0/1 RWM
0/2 ghostly prison
0/1 b2b
0/3 needle

Thanx in advance

CB curve: (preside)
cc1: 15
cc2: 15
cc3: 5/6
cc4: 1/2
cc5: 4

[Aleksandr]

Hi everyone!
I put up a list in a hurry for a tournament sunday..

No Ponder?

[gustha]

I have to sac elspeth and some hierarchs to make room for it...:frown: or I maybe cut daze, I'm not really fond of it...

[memnarch]

why you gotta post your deck all weird maaaan. 18 lands is great! with more ponder.

Dueling Grounds is actulay an interesting idea. I have found Jenara to be a house. along with trygon over Pridemage because of balance and Krosan Grip even MD isnt a bad idea. All and all though it looks good. interesting ideas. Also you realize its 61 cards?

[gustha]

I counted 60, but they are 61. Anyway, I could drop the 4 hierarch's to make room for 3 ponder, without touching the balance curve. I'm not sure if it's a wise thing to pull out the mana acceleration, and daze still sucks without that...I really wish mroe suggestions on this point to solve this doubt.
@dueling grounds: I started with 2 jitte MD, but a 1/1 split b/w jitte/dueling grounds I think it's better, since one keeps quiet small swarming aggros, the other completely stops them (our blockers being usuall bigger than their attackers), gets not killed by other's jitte, does not go under spell snare, and plus it's fantastic with the exalted mechanic so that with RWM we can take advantage even in respect of aggros with bigger creatures (stalker, terravore, crusher, etc.). This at least in theory ^^ And it's fairly good if paired with the constant flow of blockers provided by elspeth, and that's why I inserted a mono jenara (still I have not tested with jenara in, so I can say nothing, maybe enforcer still suits better).

[sauce]

why play dueling grounds?
i would almost always rather run propaganda, the only thing i can see it being better against marginally is elves, but elves run viridian zealot/shaman so it won't last anyway.

the props for propaganda is that its blue and can be pitched to fow (obv) and also is less color intensive.

i would play -1 jenara -1 trygon +2 vendilion clique in those 2 slots since you got 3 pridemages main.

nice list otherwise.

[Aleksandr]

why play dueling grounds?
i would almost always rather run propaganda, the only thing i can see it being better against marginally is elves, but elves run viridian zealot/shaman so it won't last anyway.

the props for propaganda is that its blue and can be pitched to fow (obv) and also is less color intensive.

i would play -1 jenara -1 trygon +2 vendilion clique in those 2 slots since you got 3 pridemages main.

nice list otherwise.

Contrary to Dueling Grounds, under Propaganda your creatures still cannot attack into horde of Goblins.
Otoh: both of them suck same..

[memnarch]

Contrary to Dueling Grounds, under Propaganda your creatures still cannot attack into horde of Goblins.
Otoh: both of them suck same..

Not really propaganda works wonders against all kinda decks out of my side. It would be engineered plague if I had black. But it works great against ichord and aggro swarm type of decks. Its one of the best SB cards.

[Aleksandr]

Not really propaganda works wonders against all kinda decks out of my side. It would be engineered plague if I had black. But it works great against ichord and aggro swarm type of decks. Its one of the best SB cards.

Against Ichorid maybe, because they cannot win under it (well... except for Akroma), but Goblins will not only chump your champion all day long, but they can also gang-kill him and eventually win on SGC/Sharpshooter/Krosan Grip. Also paying four to attack with Warbeef+Piledriver makes a 5lf swing per turn (unless you leave Goyf at home, but in such a case they have all the time to find their Grip), not to mention Vial->SGC, sac tokens to Prospector, sac Matron to Prospector, sac Fanatic to Propector, sac Prospector, tap all mountains to fuel the Ganda, tap: Ringleader, SGC, double Warchief, Driver, Driver, Driver, swing for 41.. all that goblineous lategame nonsense.

They cannot do this with Dueling Grounds out, no matter how many mana they have. Also you are not giving them time, as you can force through their defense, cause they cannot gangblock. They either chump or lose... With proper use of EE, CB, StP and any flier you can race them or devoid them of chumpers.

Dueling Grounds is far better than P., because you can swing into opposing hordes with your Goyf. Under the Propaganda they just gang him with zombies or Matrones+tokens+Fanatics and occasional Moeba/Incinerator/SGC/Sharpshooter to finish him.

Dueling Grounds is a bit better than Propaganda, imho. Yet they still both suck...

[Adan]

Dueling Grounds is a bit better than Propaganda, imho. Yet they still both suck...

Add a Mystic Enforcer and Dueling Grounds becomes like 10 times better.

[Clark Kant]

Silent Arbiter is basically Dueling grounds with a solid blocker attached as you wont always have an untapped goyf to block with.

[gustha]

I was thinking the same, in fact I put enforcer in the slot of jenara. It's problack with exhalted makes him a powerful beater under dueling grounds. And oh yes, while gobbos can chumpblock to death, we also are attacking with, say, RWM, that really makes the difference. And we always have jitte to get rid of our opponent's blockers, and 6 swords postsb and maybe another 2 prison effects. I don't think it sucks so much.

I'd really appreciate the suggestion of vendilion clique. I've been thinking about hierarch/daze/ponder in this deck. As I said, I'm not an expert in the archetype, so correct me if I'm wrong. It seems like, with 18 lands, ponder is "just" a mana fixer: it's just an early seeker of mana paired with bs. Mid-late game it does not give us card quantity but some quality, if we wanted a strong spell to abuse of top we'd used predict, that makes real CA (as a 2 of). Why do we need a cantrip like ponder if hierarch already is the early mana source we want?
Same is true for the hierarch/daze sinergy. It always seemed to me that daze sucked without mana acceleration. So no hierarch = daze sucks. With ponder, that 3 slots has to be revisited? It's a strong feeling. It seems to me, to sum up, that ponder is incompatible with hierarch (which covers better the role of mana acceleration/fixing than ponder); and, moreover, that daze is really good only if paired with hierarch. It's just an impression, or there's some good point to spend on the question? Thanks.

[Enigma]

And we always have jitte to get rid of our opponent's blockers, and 6 swords postsb and maybe another 2 prison effects. I don't think it sucks so much.

I don't see the 4 swords MD... Beside of this, I like the list. But you seriously have to cut 4 things for the swords. the E.T. toolbox? Spell snares? Hierarchs?

P-M

[majikal]

I was thinking the same, in fact I put enforcer in the slot of jenara. It's problack with exhalted makes him a powerful beater under dueling grounds. And oh yes, while gobbos can chumpblock to death, we also are attacking with, say, RWM, that really makes the difference. And we always have jitte to get rid of our opponent's blockers, and 6 swords postsb and maybe another 2 prison effects. I don't think it sucks so much.

I'd really appreciate the suggestion of vendilion clique. I've been thinking about hierarch/daze/ponder in this deck. As I said, I'm not an expert in the archetype, so correct me if I'm wrong. It seems like, with 18 lands, ponder is "just" a mana fixer: it's just an early seeker of mana paired with bs. Mid-late game it does not give us card quantity but some quality, if we wanted a strong spell to abuse of top we'd used predict, that makes real CA (as a 2 of). Why do we need a cantrip like ponder if hierarch already is the early mana source we want?
Same is true for the hierarch/daze sinergy. It always seemed to me that daze sucked without mana acceleration. So no hierarch = daze sucks. With ponder, that 3 slots has to be revisited? It's a strong feeling. It seems to me, to sum up, that ponder is incompatible with hierarch (which covers better the role of mana acceleration/fixing than ponder); and, moreover, that daze is really good only if paired with hierarch. It's just an impression, or there's some good point to spend on the question? Thanks.
Ponder is great because it lets you shuffle your deck. I wouldn't cut it completely for anything.

[Aleksandr]

Add a Mystic Enforcer and Dueling Grounds becomes like 10 times better.

QFT.


Silent Arbiter is basically Dueling grounds with a solid blocker attached..

..that can be swordsed/incinerated.


And oh yes, while gobbos can chumpblock to death, we also are attacking with, say, RWM, that really makes the difference.

RWM can be chumpblocked even more easily than Goyf. (Clicky.) (http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/ONS/en-us/Card40193.jpg)

I don't say that Propaganda/D. Grounds are bad cards. Namely against Ichorid (with their "0 % solutions!" for permanent based hate) that card can win the game. But Goblins don't dump their hand into GY with Breakthrough, hoping for the next turn win... They can (and will) wait for their Grip and/or SGC to either get rid of the card, or win alternatively.

And to be honest.. even Ichorid with their Chain of Vapor, Wispmare, Ray of Revelation, "that-green-monster-with-CIP:destroy" and/or Angel of Despair can destroy Propaganda.

I think of those cards as a tools that help us win the game, not the ones that seal it. You need additional cards to make opponent nervous (be it Crypt, Hydroblast, etc.), because DG and/or PG alone is not enough.

Otoh - if my metagame would be swarmed by both Goblins and Ichorid, I would insert one of that card to my SB immediatelly. If your meta looks like that, than it is ok to play it.

[gustha]

My question is... where the hell my Stp are gone? I was sure I inserted them... and usually I don't drink (at least, not so much to forget stp in a list...:laugh: ).

@dueling grounds: i don't pretend it's a card that seals the game, basically i didn't want 2 copies of jitte: they serve slightly different and sligthly similar purpose, while splitting between the 2 can offer, I think, a versatility 2 jitte can't offer (eg. t1 hierarch t2 dueling grounds is effective against ichorid, the same it's not true for jitte; while obviously dueling grounds buys some time against swarming aggro, but the gamebreaker here is jitte, etc.)

@ponder: 8 fetches shuffles the deck as well. I sincerely don't see the point.
I'll work on that stp's...

EDIT: here's some work

// Lands: 18
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [R] Tropical Island
2 [R] Tundra
2 [UG] Island
2 [UG] Forest
1 [UG] Plains

// Creatures: 12
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
1 [OD] Mystic Enforcer

// Spells
Removals: 4
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares

Permission: 11
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [AL] Force of Will

Draw: 10
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [LRW] Ponder

Tutor & toolbox: 5
1 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
1 [IN] Dueling Grounds
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [4E] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [5E] Hydroblast
SB: 2 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus

60 cards, and swords back. I can find no room for hierarch, and consequently I can find no room for daze, so I cut them. I miss the 2nd jitte SB. Or I can cut down the tutor and the dueling grounds (sigh!) for the second jitte and the second oring:
toolbox:
2 jitte
2 oring
1 explo
I know for sure there are a couple of dredge and a goblin/zoo infested meta, as well as landstill and other threshold. Maybe I should simply play landstill! ^^ But I'm a bit sick of playing the same deck, every now and then it's time to change...

Blue count: 21
Mana curve:
cc1: 18 (too high?)
cc2: 13 (too low? maybe I can cut dueling tutor for the 2nd jitte, but in this case dueling grounds is no more good as silver bullet)
cc3: 5
cc4: 1
cc5: 4

The sb looks solid. I'm thinking of adding 2 trinket mage md because they have good targets sb (yeah, they can all be etutored as well, and much faster...).
-1 tutor
-1 enforcer
+2 trinket mage
-1 dueling grounds
+1 jitte
Comments?

EDIT2: BTW, spell snare-daze occupy the same slots, and I'm not sure which one is better. Daze keeps us a turn back, while snare on the contrary let us gain a turn. Daze is good vs combo but is a little weaker now since there's no mana denial (waste+stifle) plan against other decks; snare gets much of the format, but the question is: anything cb+top doesn't already eat? On the other hand, spell snare is effective by turn1, cb top is online by turn 3 if you're luck, and anyway not fully availabe till turn 4. Daze shifts more further this timeline. Snare avoids other goyf to come down, but pridemage helps in goyf-stals; snare avoids opponent's cb to resolve, and pridemage too (yeah, it's great). Due to our relative lack of removal (only 4 swords, eventually EE and oring), snare acts a proactive spell in respect of intelligent creatures like confidant, daze usually not. Daze steals tempo (this is not a tempo version, though), snare gains it. Though the more I look the more I feel that the role which snare is intended to cover is already covered by other cards in the deck.

[spirit of the wretch]

-1 tutor
-1 enforcer
+2 trinket mage
-1 dueling grounds
+1 jitte
Comments?

With these changes you basically have the exact same list I played in a big tournament in Annecy (-ORing, + Top). (Here's the report (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13638))
The list is really solid, but I missed the Dazes in the Spell Snare slot. I debatet this issue a lot with my team member Clemens (Der_imaginäre_Freund) and we didn't come to the same conclusion, but I really like Daze for its flexibility, the CC2 and the psychological effect it has on your opponent. So if I were to play this deck again any time soon (which I probably won't), I'd cut the Spell Snares for Dazes.
But as I said, this choice mostly is a preference thing. Whatever you like better is fine =)

[gustha]

Yep, it's true! ^^ The list looks solid to me, although I'm to make some practice with a different mentality and I'm not usually a good topdecker (that's why I usually play control...:laugh: ). I'm testing it and I miss daze too...snare is powerful, but it's more of a control then of an aggrocontrol deck, I think.
Just for curiosity, why aren't you going to re-play this deck any time soon? ^^

[elof]

Hi everyone!

I'm new to the thread and has only read a couple of pages yet but I'm thinking about jumping on the bandwagon and play UGw thres and I have a couple of questions.

What is the "standard" list and are there different approches? Are for example BANT decks the same or is that a more "aggro" hybrid?

Lorescale Coatl, have anybody tried him? Is he really good? I tried him and he was insane and meh from time to time and I havn't done a real gauntlet study.

Any other tips whould be fine!

Best regards
elof

[Aleksandr]

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
2 [ON] Island (3)
1 [IN] Forest (1)
3 [B] Tropical Island
3 [B] Tundra
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [IN] Plains (1)

// Creatures
3 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [EVE] Cold-Eyed Selkie
3 [ARB] Lorescale Coatl

// Spells
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
3 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 2 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
SB: 2 [DIS] Trygon Predator
SB: 2 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
SB: 1 [IA] Hydroblast


Gonna try this one tonight..

I like the exalted theme - manafixation and antiCB tech that makes our Goyfs bigger, recuring Ancestral Recall on wheels, RWM with one or double exalted races Burn all day long, total unconcern of GYs (except for Goyfs, but who cares, they grow fast enough.)

Things I don't like: three Dazes only (we need them fast, turn3 at latest..), no EE/Needle main, too many blue creatures that suck against gobos (namely Selkie), far less answers to turn1 Lackey (where are my Mongooses..?) and I also pity the fact that I cannot get at least two Sylvan Libraries in the deck... recuring Giant Growth with imprinted Brainstorm is kinda good, I heard... but the deck is not inflatable.

strange SB choices: 2x Needle against Eva Deed guys, 1x random Hydro = proxy StP (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=9851) that eventually eats DD/Bolt, Jitte, cause we play shroud creatures no more, no Kr. Grip. I have enough disenchant effects.. and some of them even fly, recur and with an exalted guy or two, they can be painful attackers.. No Crypt, I say f**k to Loam MU, also CB/MM is da tech against them (and MM laughs at Ad Nauseam), while Ichorid is autoloss (and even if it's more like 30/70 or even 50/50, I say damn it, no one plays it and it is inconsistent pile of crap. That wins on turn1 fair often - b4 I even have chance to play my hate -, so who cares...)

[gustha]

You're lucky no one plays ichorid! ^^ I've briefly considered the decks i've to face sunday and prefer to bring my dear landstill. However, this the deck is bent towards an interesting direction, so I'll keep up from time to time. Things I don't understand of your list.
-3 hierarch? I believe mana acceleration is too good, imho cut a land and add another one of this guy. It somehow sucks in multiple, but if you play it you absolutely want one in your opening hand, otherwise it's useless if it begins to help you in mid game. If you run hierarch, i think your first turn play would be him, period. And daze aterwards. Since you want to put early pressure, early hierarch is what you want. Playing 3 in no-sense, pardon me. This guy is a 4-of or nothing, just because you need to cast it t1 just like your beloved mongoose. Mid game it shines for his exalted ability, but if you wanted only that you'd have played another pridemage and maybe dauntless escort.
- coatl: isn't monk that better? i see it growing larger only under the good wing of counterbalance, as a topdeck he' good only if you have an exalted selkie attacking, which could mean that with his drawings you'd have better drew counters and removals than a creature that has to start it all over. However, I'm personally not a fan of it, but I tested it very briefly, so it's just a question to know how you felle about it. Maybe those 3 slots are better spent on removals or stuff (jitte, path to exile, oblivion ring).
-sb: how can only 2x MM help against anything...

I run to the station, bye!

[Clark Kant]

// Lands
2 [ON] Island (3)
1 [IN] Forest (1)
3 [b] Tropical Island
3 [b] Tundra
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [IN] Plains (1)

// Creatures
3 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [EVE] Cold-Eyed Selkie
3 [ARB] Lorescale Coatl

// Spells
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [b] Swords to Plowshares
3 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 2 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
SB: 2 [DIS] Trygon Predator
SB: 2 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
SB: 1 [IA] Hydroblast

Gonna try this one tonight..

I like the exalted theme - manafixation and antiCB tech that makes our Goyfs bigger, recuring Ancestral Recall on wheels, RWM with one or double exalted races Burn all day long, total unconcern of GYs (except for Goyfs, but who cares, they grow fast enough.)

I really like your take on my list sasa. I would cut the plains for a Hierarch but otherwise it looks about perfect. Why no Grips in the SB? I would play them over Hydroblast. Also RMW>Jitte.

[gamegeek2]

I don't see why Hierarch belongs in this deck. It'snefficient, this deck doesn't need the mana, and there's better things to win Goyf fights with.

Coatl is a great creature, and anyone can see why it's good here. There are better ways to break it, as seen in the Coatl Loam thread (New & Developing Decks), but it's plenty good enough to just have Top, Brainstorm, and Ponder to support it. It's also a blue card to pitch to FoW.

4 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Lorescale Coatl
2 Qasali Pridemage/Trygon Predator

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Counterbalance
3 Spell Snare/Stifle
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Krosan Grip

Looks a bit like more tempo-oriented versions of thresh, but packs CounterTop.

[Clark Kant]

Well, a big reason for the Hierarch is that it goes great with Selkie
Hierarach provides both Exalted and mana to accelerate into your threats while fueling Balance + Top. Pridemage, Goyf and Coatl need no explanation. Selkie is ridiculous with 8 Exalted Guys and 4 Coatl. An ancestral recall every turn that has built in evasion, and beats for three is more than you could ever ask for from a creature.

Before you scoff at Cold-eyed Selkie, compare it to Dark Confidant.

For just one more mana than Confidant, you get...

No need to splash an entire another color
No Lifeloss at all, so you can keep it around for as long as you want
Built in evasion against 75% of the decks in the format
Pitchability to FoW
Automatically pumps Coatl to absurd sizes
The ability to draw a hell of a LOT more than just one card a turn thanks to Exalted. Selkie very often ends up being an Ancestral Recall every turn.

After playing with Selkie, I am convinced that all of those advantages are well worth spending one more mana to play Selkie.

You don't care if your creatures get killed because you play 20 of them, 12 of which are absurdly broken in the deck. Both the Exalted and the Coatls easily help you outclass/answer your opponent's Goyfs.

[memnarch]

I don't see why Hierarch belongs in this deck. It'snefficient, this deck doesn't need the mana, and there's better things to win Goyf fights with.

Coatl is a great creature, and anyone can see why it's good here. There are better ways to break it, as seen in the Coatl Loam thread (New & Developing Decks), but it's plenty good enough to just have Top, Brainstorm, and Ponder to support it. It's also a blue card to pitch to FoW.

4 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Lorescale Coatl
2 Qasali Pridemage/Trygon Predator

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Counterbalance
3 Spell Snare/Stifle
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Krosan Grip

Looks a bit like more tempo-oriented versions of thresh, but packs CounterTop.

I agree on both those points and like the list by the way. Its very similar to mine, but I included 2 jenera and she is a house as well, but no one else seems to be using her for some reason. I also include 2 krosan MD now too. Creepy similar. But I have been very happy with it. Its a great deck. Ultimately I went with trygon predator over pridemage as good as mage is. Trygon has flying and a reusable effect, teamed with krosan grip you can really clean up the board. People saying Coatl is bad aren't playing with enough cantrips. Brainstorm and even the top make it pretty ginormous in size. Like eating goyfs for lunch size.

[Aleksandr]

DISCLAIMER:

Even though we all hate one-liners and decklists without explanation, I kindly ask the mods to not remove this post. In the future I will use this posty as a reference, which will save us many needless decklist in my following replies.
Thanks.


My current decklist:


Coatl Gro:

Counties:
2 [ON] Island (3)
1 [IN] Forest (1)
3 Tropical Island
3 [B] Tundra
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [IN] Plains (1)

[B]Inhabitants:
3 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [EVE] Cold-Eyed Selkie
3 [ARB] Lorescale Coatl

Folklore:
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance


[B]Neighbourhood:
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 2 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
SB: 2 [DIS] Trygon Predator
SB: 2 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
SB: 1 [IA] Hydroblast

[Aleksandr]

Friday Night's Legacy

location: Cerny Rytir gaming club

attendance: 12 people (four turns of Swiss)

metagame:
Ankh Burn
Coatl Gro (yours sincere)
Eva Pernicious
Elves!
Goblins Rb
Goblins Rw
MBA
Meat Hooks
ZOO
43 Lands
???
???

prizes: (1st-2nd-3rd-random dude) Taiga-Stomping Ground-???-??? (one been Isochron Scepter)


list: list (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=343177&postcount=2146)

Report:

R1, Matej, MBA

I have never seen the guy before, or better said - I have a feeling that we already met on some tournament and that he piloted low-budget IGGy Pop, but he says otherwise.. so lets see what happens.

G1:
He started with some Carrotphage serious action that puts me down to 13 or 12 lf, until I stabilize on CB/Top. Snuff Out eats my Goyf, as I am left with no answers (see no 4 mana drop in decklist), otoh nice BS into top=Coatl counterbalances his Phyrexian Arena. End result: Goyf > opponent, but I win with three life left.. and I also nearly made a fatal mistake during announcement of attackers - if only Matej would be a little bit stricter, I would lose.

sideboard:
out: Dazes, Cold-Eyed Selkies, Lorescale Coatls and some crap
in: Meddling Mages, Jittes, EEs, Needles, Predators (?), RWMs (???)

G2:
I've build a solid exalted army of four men (Hierarch, Pridemage, Goyf and Predator) that is capable of some pressure, but my top=/=:3: when Matej tried Perish. So I basically overextend into one-sided Wrath; my fault, I should have known; otoh I have not played against Perish/Nature's Ruin for ages, so let it be my excuse..
I see some +2 change in opponents life total, so this can be swordsed Hypno, but I still got nothing onboard and a Dauthi Slayer is slowly eating my lf points. I summon some being (I don't remember which one), but Matej immediately snuffs it out; I can also remember some Diabetic Edible, but I'm not sure what it eat (be it creature or countermagic.)
I proceed to fail in drawing a creature for several turns, but at least I am somehow hiden behind the CB/Top wall. On two life points I need to StP the Slayer and then I draw Meddling Mage and things finally turn into my favor. I put MM into play naming Snuff Out, lately I get Jitte and another Mage (@ Smother)... whatever occures first...
On my Top I have another Swords and double Needle, so I am save even if Matej gets the Shade. Otoh I cannot stop his Arena from resolving - you already know my top three, so now you know that I had no FoW in my hand.
Time is called, but with my double MM and Jitte online I defeat Matej in the two turns I had left: his lf went 11-3-2

I apologised for my "cheating" with attackers during the G1. Matej was ok with it, he even said that on a tournament like this he has no need to be rules-geek. Thx a lot man, you're nice guy and solid opponent! Both our games were very thrilling and even though I had the upper hand due to my CB lock, he was never really out of game and was always this close from winning.

MVP: Counterbalance, Jitte
Highlights: Perish, MM aggro


R2, Jan, Goblins Rb

Even though his "Venom: Black Metal" T-shirt and rough tatoos would imply otherwise, Jan is a pleasant guy and I am glad that he had returned to mtg after some pause.
Playing against hordes is not easy for Thresh, namely the Vial Goblins are bit hard for my liking, but we'll see..

G1:
In fact, I don't remember the game exactly, but I can recall that Jan was stuck on few lands, namely Port and Waste. I build my manabase solely of Hierarchs, because his first Wasteland screwed my Trop.

Then Jan finally drew the Mountain and played Lackey, but I StPed him EOT. In response he Incinerates my Hierarch - but I informed him that he has no red mana for it, so Jan takes it back a bit confused. (It was the first time he noticed that he needs a red mana to cycle the Incinerator.. we both loled, that mtg pause he made was maybe a bit longer... :smile:)

With another exalted guy out (Pridemage) and some lands I can start the pressure - mainly because my Goyf was 4/5, so bashing for seven per turn forced Jan to chump. With the few red mana he had open, he was unable to play correctly and lately he succumbed to Goyf. (At the end I had 16 life.. so you can see how terribly he was screwed.)

sideboard:
out: Dazes, Cold-Eyed Selkies, Lorescale Coatls, 2x CB (other two remained in to stop Auntie's shenanigans with Warren Weirding)
in: RWMs, Jittes, EEs, Needles, Predators, H-Blast

G2:
This game was not that heavily in my favor, but still the Exalted Goyf Action (TM) was strong enough to make me win.
After some initial debate on state based effects (ok, I said that Jan was out of game for some time, so he did not know how exactly the Goyf-Incinerator interaction works) I have lost my Goyf, but still was in better shape than my opponent. I EEed his Vial and on my thirteen life I stabilised with Goyf+Jitte and enough mana to reequip the sword from tapped Goyf to (potential) blockers.
Goyf ate and Jitte slaughtered a horid ammount of chumpblockers, but after all that carnage Jan was finally left with no creatures (double Ringleader into nothing was also helpful to my casue..), so few minutes before the time limit I finished him; my notes on his life total look like 22, 15, 10, where the log ends...

MVP: Goyf


R3, Jan, Ankh Burn

Another not quite perfect match and I started to regret that I have maindecked the Selkies... Otoh with some CB/Top luck and RWMs and Jittes from board it could be better.

G1:
I won on the backs of CB lock, if I remember it well. Playing with higher curve than normal Thresh builds was decisive - I remember to stop at least one Rift Bolt and Flamebreak by revealing a Selkie from the top. Nonetheless it was their only function in this match, I did not even waste my time and resources with summoning them - mere 1/1 for three mana is shitty against Red.dec.
Ankh was a bit annoying, too, namely in conjuction with Price of Progress. (Either you put as few lands as possible to play, but in such a case you need many non-basics; or you can dodge PoP with basics, but this leads to enourmous fetching, which is a bit hurtful under Ankh.) But with no Fireblasts and/or Flame Rifts he was unable to finish me fast enough..
14-8-5-2. Goyf is retarded.

sideboard:
out: Dazes, Cold-Eyed Selkies, Lorescale Coatls,
in: RWMs, Jittes, H-Blast, MMs, Predators

G2:
I feared Sulfuric Vortex (or any other permanent hate: e.g. Moon effect), not to mention that Ankhs alone were enough to take the Predators from side.
In this game I droped to twelve lf very fast. Then the opponent tapped out for Browbeat with two cards left, so I decided to drop even further. (IDK, maybe it would be wiser to let the BB resolve, because without mana he wasn't dangerous.. but BB could bring him a fourth Mountain and with some support, one or two Fireblasts could easily finish me, as I lacked FoW.)
We both played some crap, than I tried the Mage, but he was Pyroed. At least I had CB/Top out (at least I think it.. there is no other way how could I survive on four life..) and then I finally get some interesting cards: Goyf and Jitte. I attacked, returned some life in case my opponents draws either a double Sudden Shock (why not?), or some combination of burn spells that I could not handle with a CB. (Why I just did not wait for them? Beacause with all those Forks, Bolts, Fireblasts and Smashes to Smitherness played in response, he can effortlessly outplay me..)
15-10-4. Yeah, Goyf is retarded.

MVP: Goyf, Jitte
Highlights: counterbalancing Flamebreak via BS into top=Selkie.


R4, humppa, ZOO

Here I am again, in the Hall of the Mighty Red Wizards, trying to make some impress with my 1/1 merfolks for three mana.. Lol, I was soo wrong with my metagaming... Not a single control deck, not to mention anything blue except the Slivers.. I got a quick test for you, kids: What do you think - how I SBed for this matchup? (Answers below.)

G1:
Kird Ape, Nacatl + suspend Rift Bolt put me under extreme pressure, while I was only trying to achieve CB lock. On six life I was cast out with some burn spells, never played anything relevant. (Maybe I should have sworded the Nacatl, but it was my only removal so I saved it for a Goyf.. that never appeared. With three/six hit points more it would a bit be easier to stabilise.. but otoh humppa's deck offers so much burn that I cannot handle all of it.)

sideboard:
out: Daze, Cold-Eyed Selkies, Lorescale Coatls,
in: RWMs, Jittes, H-Blast, MMs

G2:
Once again a fast and brutal game. Even though I get my StPs and CB fast, it was not enough. CB was shot down with Pyroblast, double Lavaromancer made combat math much harder (and also prevented me from playing my dudes, at least until he emptied his GY..)
I played Goyf, but without Jitte he wasn't fast enough, so when I got to a burn range (which means: at 10 life), humppa finished me.

Nice games; especially preboard heavily in humppa's favor, but still - nice games. Also - finally some fast action: previous matches went nearly to time limit, R1 even ended in extra time...

MVP: Goyf, but he had not enough time...


Results:

There were four ppl with nine points, me been the best of them. So I ended second with a Stomping Ground. Now I have my playset finished, so I can build Extended 5c control.. or rather pass it to the dealer that sells my cards... :smile:
Nice tournament, nice deck.


Recollections on revolution in Thresh

IDK. We've played a few games later in the pub. Against Elf combo (not that this deck is prevalent) it fares terribly, against Merfolk it went 2:4 or something like that, but don't forget that Merfolks have their landwalk Lords and Vials that really make the match harder.
But that's not the whole problem with the deck.

First: Even though I really appreciate the exalted mechanic and even though the other utilities of the creatures (be it built-in disenchant or mana for SDT manipulations), I am still really unsure of the guys. They are not that aggressive (namely Hierarchs :smile:) and they suck as a lategame topdeck (once again: namely Hierarchs.)

Second: All those exalted and merfolk creatures added result in less slots for utility/removal (be it Ring, Grip, EE, Needle, Path of Exile) and/or great finisher - read: Mystic Enforcer. (Ok, he is replaced with Coatl that can grow even bigger, but contrary to Enforcer, the snake is bad when we side out Selkies - and I sideboard them fair often, see the report -, not to mention his evasion:none.) All this makes the deck a bit toothless, namely in face of burn/land hordes, while (potentially) improving our control MU that we anyway win with Goyf and proper CB usage.

Third: Mongoose. I got mixed feelings about that creature. I lack it for Lackeys, it also laughs at Shackles/Swords, otoh as a mere 1/1 (or 3/3 at turn10) it is not that gamebreaking. With exalted mechanic it could make some impress, but then again - what to cut?

Fourth: The-Great-Snake-That-Eats-Goyf-For-Breakfast (http://magiccards.info/scans/en/arb/101.jpg). Hmpfff... I started it in some of the previous paragraphs. This card has all the faults of Dryad, but one must tell that it is bit easier to make it grow - we have draw phase, SDT... and Brainstorm adds not one, but three counters. With a Selkie (and a few exalted guys out) it can grow quickly to absurd sizes, otoh in such a case it stands at home. (Either that or we lose the exalted triggers.) With multiple Selkies in play it can join the attack, of course, but in both cases the snake is just a win more card because if we draw two to four card per turn, we are about to win Coatl or not. And maybe, maybe it is even a LOSE more card, because instead of drawing utility/removal, we draw additional crappy exalted creatures and another redundant Coatls.

Fifth: Relative troubles with mass removal. I'm not even talking about Deed or WoG - just a Pyroclasm and/or timely EE can ruin our day. The deck as it stands has many synergies between creatures (or better yet: only two or three, but very strong and linked ones), so when the things go well, it is CA-machine with extremely big monsters. But it suffers of the "slivers syndrome" heavily - remove the guys (that are strong in their horde) and all fails. You can rebuild the army from topdecks, yes you can, but I hope that everyone sees the difference between "rebuilding army" and "tearing the Goyf/Enforcer from the top, on the next turn taping it FTW".

I could follow this paragraphs for ever, but I think that you already have the picture.
Right now I just cannot decide which route to chose. I like the massive CA produced by Selkies, I like how it in return feeds my finishers and I like how the deck is even less dependant on the grave. But the worse topdecks, far less utility cards, dependance on the built-in synergies rather than on brutal power.. and many, many more factors.. IDK. I will echo myself, but right now I cannot decide which direction is the best.

Discuss.

[gamegeek2]

I agree on both those points and like the list by the way. Its very similar to mine, but I included 2 jenera and she is a house as well, but no one else seems to be using her for some reason. I also include 2 krosan MD now too. Creepy similar. But I have been very happy with it. Its a great deck. Ultimately I went with trygon predator over pridemage as good as mage is. Trygon has flying and a reusable effect, teamed with krosan grip you can really clean up the board. People saying Coatl is bad aren't playing with enough cantrips. Brainstorm and even the top make it pretty ginormous in size. Like eating goyfs for lunch size.

Yeah, I'm liking Trygon as well. Coatl is a house, it's not as good as it is in the Loam deck but it's still sick.

Still working on building the actual deck. Started assembling Goyfs for extended; may play the Ext rock deck in Legacy if I can loan some Vindicates.

[memnarch]

[U][SIZE="3"]

Second: All those exalted and merfolk creatures added result in less slots for utility/removal (be it Ring, Grip, EE, Needle, Path of Exile) and/or great finisher - read: Mystic Enforcer. (Ok, he is replaced with Coatl that can grow even bigger, but contrary to Enforcer, the snake is bad when we side out Selkies - and I sideboard them fair often, see the report -, not to mention his evasion:none.) All this makes the deck a bit toothless, namely in face of burn/land hordes, while (potentially) improving our control MU that we anyway win with Goyf and proper CB usage.


Discuss.

Not to mention those creatures susceptibility to mass removal like pyroclasm. I have found the same thing, which is why its best to pack just removal and finishers. Trygon predator is decent because it flys overhead which is often relevant and is also removal himself, along with the fact that its potential CA especially against something like stax. I think the guildmage is good too because of the removal/beater aspect but I'm not sold its better then trygon. I have found that usauly the first few turns are spent dazing, controlling and cantriping into lands. So I found that having a creature priced at 3 isn't bad at all. Its OK to have many creatures in the 3 slot. Cold-Eyed Selkie is not even half the beater jenara is by himself. The snake doesn't really need all this extra stuff to function, I think it works well in the typical thresh build. packing 4 tops 4 ponder and 4 brainstorm should be enough to get him fat.

[Tacosnape]

Has anyone tinkered around with Predict in conjunction with Lorescale Coatl? Coatl's made me pick up this deck, and I've started tinkering around with lists for a bit. Came up with the following.

4 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Lorescale Coatl
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Trygon Predator

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Predict

4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
3 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares

[Berzerked]

I might swap a Predict for the last Ponder (I find the shuffle highly relevant, plus cheap draw for Coatl and an easy early play with a land light hand), and a Tundra for an additional Pridemage (just because I really like him and Trygon together), and 19 land might be a little much anyway. Also, I'd usually like the extra fetch over a Trop (again, I like to shuffle).

Other than that, It's basically one of the builds I've been testing.

I've really been liking builds with Rhox War Monk, Noble Hierarch, Pridemage, and Trygon, though.

[Tacosnape]

I might swap a Predict for the last Ponder (I find the shuffle highly relevant, plus cheap draw for Coatl and an easy early play with a land light hand), and a Tundra for an additional Pridemage (just because I really like him and Trygon together), and 19 land might be a little much anyway. Also, I'd usually like the extra fetch over a Trop (again, I like to shuffle).

Other than that, It's basically one of the builds I've been testing.

I've really been liking builds with Rhox War Monk, Noble Hierarch, Pridemage, and Trygon, though.

I'll have to try out the land configuration. I'll probably go to Heath 4 at some point. I like the stability of extra lands with mana being spent for Top activations though.

I'm not a huge fan of Noble Hierarch. I think he's weak and don't think he does enough here. My logic is pretty much that if Nimble Mongoose is struggling to do enough, Hierarch certainly doesn't.

[Aggro_zombies]

Has anyone tinkered around with Predict in conjunction with Lorescale Coatl? Coatl's made me pick up this deck, and I've started tinkering around with lists for a bit. Came up with the following.

4 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Lorescale Coatl
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Trygon Predator

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Predict

4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
3 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
How funny, I was actually thinking the same thing. This is what I would like to test:

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Lorescale Coatl

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Predict

3 Daze
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Bant Charm

4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

I originally wanted to use Shackles in place of Charm, but the low land count made that a no-go. I considered running PtE for additional removal, but I wanted to diversify my curve a bit for CB. In the end, I went with Charm because it's extra creature removal that can do other useful things as well. Could potentially be Krosan Grips, but I really don't like running those main.

[Berzerked]

True, that Hierarch is one of the weaker slots in many games, and obviously you could never directly replace Mongoose with Hierarch as the later is obviously not as aggressive and even less defensive, but I'd say she is definitely build specific.

For instance, with the the rise of Counterbalance and Spell Snare, 3cc has gotten a lot stronger, specifically Trygon and War Monk (who I think really helps out Thresh's weaker matchups. I mean, unblocked 6 point life swing, and even a 3 point one when blocked or blocking, and can't be bolted.). At the same time, many decks that run those cards run LD in the form of Wasteland and Stifle, which can really hamper Thresh in the early game. The way I see it, Hierarch powers out 3cc quicker and with less reliance on having lands in play, powers out CB/Pridemage on turn 2 with Daze inevitability, makes War Monk and Trygon extra deadly with Exalted (Pridemage and the singleton Rafiq I've been testing make it even funnier), and at the very least will just chump, hopefully having provided at least 1 useful mana in its turns alive.
Not having shroud is a non-issue, as the deck packs more threats and if Hierarch eats some removal so Goyf/War Monk don't have to, it's all good with me. The only problem I've found has been the 0/1 on defense against relevant x/1 creatures (Bob, Lackey, others).

Really, though, I'm still testing. This is just what I've noticed so far.

[Charlatan]

Man, this isn't a threshold thread anymore. People are writing about another deck with creatures that I never see in a top 8.

Sorry, but i can't even read this post anymore.

Could someone make other thread for this deck?

If i wrote bullshit, sorry.
But i feel this.

[3duece]

You are right, but it doesn't really matter. I don't think nimble mongoose will see significant play in this deck again. So when you see UGw threshold, just think Bant Control and get on with your life.

[4eak]

@ Charlatan

Some of those creatures just came out, so you haven't had as much time to see them top 8. It seems quite likely that Qasali and Coatl will be found in at least some future top 8 lists.

You may not like some of the lists or evolutions of the deck, but I would not go so far as to say these decks aren't Threshold.

This archetype has ceased to be reliant upon the "threshold" mechanic for a long time. That doesn't mean the mechanic is unused, but it isn't the core of the deck and it isn't required anymore to have a viable build. The name 'Threshold' is just pointing towards a historical role and method of deckbuilding for an archetype that has evolved over time (some call it Gro, some Fish, whatever).

These decks are still Thresh.





peace,
4eak

[Aleksandr]

@ Charlatan
(some call it Gro, some Fish, whatever).

These decks are still Thresh.





peace,
4eak

this.



To avoid one-liner:

I dont care if there are Enforcers/Mongooses/Mental Notes/Meddling Mages/Predicts/Galina's Knights/Wear Beers anymore.
I feel that "threshold" is just a trademark for a long time. (At least since CB/Top) And if the original product is no more wanted, lets sell another one under the established name.
The overall plan (cantrip into cards you need, switchingroles between.. oh, well, i think you know how Thresh works, dont ya?) is what makes Thresh, not the exact numbers of mongooses...

Lets talk about this: Is this Thresh better than its previous incarnations? If it is stronger, than f**k Galina's Knight, Enforcer and stuff and lets call THIS deck "Thresh" and lets forget the old ones. Is it weaker? Than f**k this deck no matter how do we call it...

[lolosoon]

Man, this isn't a threshold thread anymore. People are writing about another deck with creatures that I never see in a top 8.

I beg your Pardon ?!? (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13638)

And the new cards are legals only since a dozen of days so...

Yup, this might be a Threshold thread no more. It's now a NotQuiteThresh thread, like Thresh was an evolution of Grow.dec when it was called NQG.

Decks, like species, have to evolve//adapt, or simply disappear.

Still, I do think cards like Selkies are too slow for an Aggro-Control build like CBTop.
Vintage Fish//Remora decks start running the (Exalted~)Selkies+Coatl package with success but there is less aggro decks in Vintage, thus less damage races (and there the CA provided by Selkies is worth the cost).

I dunno if this package is highly competitive in Legacy. But I'd rather run RWM than selkies in this deck//format.

[Ch@os]

Man, this isn't a threshold thread anymore. People are writing about another deck with creatures that I never see in a top 8.


ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh aka NQG [Not Quite Grow] is now with Coatl more "Grow" than ever before :D

[godryk]

I've just come from our monthly event. 42 (I'm not sure) people gathered to play 6 rounds of Legacy. I choosed to play the SPOD list from Annecy (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=342357&postcount=1), with just a minor change consisting of replacing Snares with Dazes and minor manabase tweaks (Windswepth Heath for basic Forest access which ended being useful to me). Although I didn't get quite impresive results (played most of the day in the lower tables) this was mainly due to my lack of testing for the last months... :laugh:

However I feel I can post some thoughts about the list and then discuss.

@Qasali Pridemage: I have mixed feeling about this guy. The disenchant ability didn't really shined, as the only real thing I blew up was a Threads of Disloyalty targeting Qasali. However it kept my opponents from playing things, which is quite obvious as they are not going to walk into a Qasali. I found it useful to preemptively get rid of Standstill and Deed. Against the Rock a pair of Qasali kept the opponent of playing a Deed until he reached five mana, giving me time enough to find a cost three to CB it to hell when played. The exalted mechanic was what really shined. It's nice to have a pair of these and walk over 3/3s (mornin' Nacatl, here it comes granpa to beat your ass bitch). I'm not sure about them yet, as I need more testing, which will luckily happen next month, but so far I'm liking them more than what I've ever liked Werebear.

@Trinket Mage: Useful. Didn't get the most out of it, but It rounded the curve pretty nicely and helped me getting Tops and EEs. Veredict: will keep on testing them.

@Jitte: I was quite impressed by it. Two was the right number, always had one when needed. It had multiple purposes, mainly speeding up the deck by allowing weenies grow. Definitely one of my favourite cards today. Nice how you can play around Shackles with an equipped Goyf.

@Rhox War Monk: Kickassing against Goyf Sligh, just ok against everything else, we already know about that, not so hot specially considering its manacost. Veredict: I may try other things in its place if I need the room.

I played this manabase:

4 Flooded
4 Windswepth
3 Tundra
3 Tropical
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

Access to basics was important and never hurt me too much. I felt the deck got more green intensive and lost some games due to not getting green mana in time. Probably not running the Tropical Island playset was kind of fail, but I'm still quit sold on basic Forest. I'm really considering this:

-1 Island/Tundra
+1 Tropical

However I really liked the list and thought it had the right amount of creatures, permission and lands.

[Clark Kant]

Great report Sasa. But in your meta with no landstill or thresh, dreadstill or TA or Merfolk, all aggro, no artifacts or enchantments, I would atleast replace the MD Selkies for MD Rhox War Monk (such a beating w exalted) and maybe replace Coatl for a Ponder and 2 Mystic Enforcers.

The Hierarchs role isnt just exalted. It also lets you support the higher curve while running fewer lands and being wasteland and blood moon proof. 17 lands should be fine. Play Predict here instead.

If they use up removal on your hierarchs, good. Thats one more goyf or coatl of yours they wont be able to remove.

How was selkie in the merfolk matchup. Getting pumped by their lords, exalted while being unblockable and drawing you cards is awesome, no?

[Aleksandr]

Great report Sasa. But in your meta with no landstill or thresh, dreadstill or TA or Merfolk, all aggro, no artifacts or enchantments, I would atleast replace the MD Selkies for MD Rhox War Monk (such a beating w exalted)

Absolutely.
In such a red meta, the Selkies are totally dead.



The Hierarchs role isnt just exalted. It also lets you support the higher curve while running fewer lands and being wasteland and blood moon proof. 17 lands should be fine.

I fear to play with 17 lands only, because I like to start with a land, have my mana for SDT... etc. But maybe 17 lands are enough..



How was selkie in the merfolk matchup?

Hm.. well...



Getting pumped by their lords, exalted while being unblockable and drawing you cards is awesome, no?

Yes and no.
With their Vials and high creature count, they can play the game in their favor. E.g.: I attack with Selkie, draw one. EOT: Vial out Lord, untap, upkeep, draw, Vial out Lord, go lethal... :frown:
And this one (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=139702) even feeds just the opponent's merfolks..

And once they Standstill a Vial and/or three Merfolks..

Otoh, I enjoyed nice game when my Selkie brought me number of cards and than a Coatl finished my opponent in two attacks.. But with all their Islandwalkers, Vials and Lords, I think that they are favored in this match..

[johanessen]

Okay I ended up with this list... open to 3 metagame slots.

Lands - 19
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

Creatures - 10
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Lorescale Coatl
4 Tarmogoyf

Spells - 28
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
2 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
2 Vedalken Shackles
4 Swords to Plowshares

3 Metagame slots - Can be Rhox War Monk, any cc4 (Sower/Elspeth), Predict, Spell Snare, another beater... I Think i'd go for 2 Rhox and 1 Elspeth.

Sideboard could be...

3 Meddling Mage
3 Hydroblast
1 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Path to Exile
2 Metagame..

What do u think?

Basic forest is necessary? It messes up with shackles..

[Aleksandr]

Access to basics was important and never hurt me too much. I felt the deck got more green intensive and lost some games due to not getting green mana in time. Probably not running the Tropical Island playset was kind of fail, but I'm still quit sold on basic Forest. I'm really considering this:

-1 Island/Tundra
+1 Tropical

However I really liked the list and thought it was the right amount of creatures, permission and lands.

I'd cut Tundra before Island. I like my basics... :wink:



Basic forest is necessary? It messes up with shackles..

Same story here. I like when my Forests last.. and Trops have very short durability when Wasteland shows up.

[godryk]

Yeah, I agree, you don't rely very much on white, so 2 Tundra and 1 Plains is more than enough, at least on paper. I also agree about the basic Forest issue. Unless you're facing a very competitive metagame (i.e. a Gran Prix where such shit doesn't happen), you can't afford to loose to stupid Wasteland locks. Crucible/Loam + Wasteland happens more often than what we'd like. :wink:

[johanessen]

Yes i'm preparing a middle-high lvl tournament with 80 ppl average. Anyway I'll go to basic forest with 19 lands total like the list i posted. In every tournament there is a guy extirpating tropicals.

About Elspeth slot.. do you like it? 2WW may be a problem to cast. Anyone tried Jace? Draw habilitie seems to work good together with Coatl. Or going for the 20th land is the best way.

[Berzerked]

I've been testing singletons of Elspeth/Rafiq/Enforcer alongside a full set of Noble Hierarchs. Hierarch makes all of them easier to cast, but Elspeth specific, 4/5 attacking BoPs are awesome.

I'm used to playing Elspeth in Landstill, where very often she will be struggling to make tokens to even protect herself, but in a deck with other cheap creatures, where Elspeth can hit play and immediately pump something for big damage and not have to worry about protecting herself, she's a beating.

Rafiq is also great. 8 damage attacking by himself is pretty cool, but he's boltable and has no evasion. He's really better with RWMs in play. Pitching to FoW is also cool.

Enforcer is alright. I like bringing in Relics from the board, though, and it's definitely the weakest of the 3 with no Thresh.

Oh, which reminds me, bringing in Relics with this deck is awesome. My build currently has no reliance on the yard (except Goyf, but at least he remains 0/1 for Exalted and Rafiq/Elspeth), so replacing Ponder with Relic game 2 is usually no big deal.

Edit: I agree with basic Forest and Plains with 3 Trops and 2 Tundra, with 2 basic Island.

[johanessen]

Okay Rafiq could be a viable option. Bant is more a mid-range deck than a long-range (daze is the main reason), and Elspeth do it's betters in a more controlish decks (landstill mainly). Should I give a try to a singleton Rafiq or there are other good options? Sower maybe as asked before? I personally don't like Sower, it's like bread for today hunger for tomorrow, and also we play a couple of shackles doing same job which i think they are far better (not that hateable).
Another option is adding 2x Spell Snare to avoid the 2nd turn cb/goyf/confidant, but i'm not very fan of this idea.
How about Bant charm?


About Hierarch... i don't like em too much. This deck is not especially mana-hungry and is bad at topdeck. I'm sure to not using these ones.

[Mordel]

I probably don't have as many hours as some with this deck, but I do like hierarchs thus far. They are a less than impressive late game play, but they are absolutely awesome against choke/b2b/non-basic hate and they are absolutely awesome in concert with my RWM, which I have found to be awesome in testing.

I don't blame people for being unimpressed by them when they are being used with goyfs almost exclusively, but I find them to be great thus far when they are being used with utility dorks such as trygdon or pridemage. Mongoose are nice, but the fact that they require cantrips and fetches to go off in a timely fashion was something that always rubbed me the wrong way. They are a great card, but right now with what I am doing with this deck is that I am tyring to seal off avenues of losing the game by stupid shit such as a relic or crypt being popped and such.

In the long run, though hierarch may not have shroud, it does allow you to accelerate into faster shackles/CB+SDT shenanigans and also contributes to damage the second a creature starts swinging without actually risking itself in combat. I also have won games based off of exalted shit punching through opposing goyfs and not even a goyf standstill...pridemages and even hierarchs themselves because I didn't want to risk a pridemage.

On a somewhat objective note, I think mongoose and hierarch have very distinct advantages, though mongoose's effectiveness is almost entirely focused on the swing aspect. Hierarch affords acceleration and a minor augmentation in damage simultaneously, while also acting as an unwasteable tropical island or savannah. Mongoose is pound for pound, a better creature in my opinion, but the flexibility of hierarch is why I find myself running them when I would not even bother to run mongoose at all.

In the future, I may grow to dislike hierarchs, but at the moment, I have not had any bad experiences because of them.

[diffy]

What is it with all these people starting to stuff their builds with bad cards?

Noble Hierarch:
He (or other acceleration for that matter) is a bad draw after the very early game, and NQG, a deck without any form of card advantage, can't afford even more bad topdecks... you know, the game does go longer than it takes to play your opening hand, especially with this archetype not really having the right tools to end the game quickly: let's face it, Tarmogoyf isn't a reliable/good aggro plan when every deck has at the very least 4 outs to him (their own Tarmogoyfs) and you give them at least five turns to hit these outs. This deck morphed into a bastardized version of control quite some time ago, so start playing it as such: playing the control role is the correct call in almost all matchups but against Tribal Aggro.
Also, even if you get him early, he's not terribly impressive:
The argument that he helps against manabase disruption is plain and simply lazy: Blood Moon, Choke, Stifle and recursive Wastelands are all easy to play around if you build your manabase reasonably and then play carefully, knowing what you're doing. This sure takes some practice and experience, but it also is an essential part of being able to play this deck correctly. The only mana-disruption that can really hurt you on a consistent basis is Sinkhole - and against that you already have Daze and/or Spell Snare plus the ability to just ignore any manabase disruption via Counterbalance or an aggressive (as in cantrip- or creature-heavy) draw to not make it worth dedicating any further slots to it.
You don't need the acceleration: you aren't mana-hungry on any level (this is also the reason why the argument that Noble Hierarch works against the tempo-setback that is Daze is close to irrelevant) and all your 2 and 3 drops are still good even if they come down a turn later - a land is going to be better than Hierarch in most cases because it is less vulnerable and doesn't set you back a turn before accelerating you. Decks like Dragon Stompy need acceleration because stuff like Blood Moon is only good if it comes down in the first few turns of the game. NQG doesn't need acceleration because a Vedalken Shackles, Rhox War Monk or Trinket Mage still is good on turn 10.
Exalted is cute but not enough to warrant an otherwise weak card as it is only good in conjunction with other cards (Tarmogoyf, Rhox War Monk etc.) - and even then it's not the exalted that is good but the other card. Exalted is a bonus, not a reason to include something. For instance, you'd probably still play Qasali Pridemage if it were a 3/3 without Exalted.
Alternatively, have a look at it under this perspective: what did you cut for Noble Hierarch? Ponder? Permission? Rhox War Monk? Jitte? Now, in the following matchups, what would you rather have:
Against Aggro: the Noble Hierarch or the Ponder looking for your next Swords to Plowshares/Tarmogoyf/Counterbalance? The Noble Hierarch facilitating your anti-aggro cards coming into play, or the actual solution (as in Rhox War Monk & Co.)? The Noble Hierarch or the counter for their Tarmogoyf/Survival of the Fittest/four-mana-spoiler?
Against Control: the Noble Hierarch or the Ponder looking for your next actual card? The Noble Hierarch or an actual threat they have to address?
In the mirror: the Noble Hierarch or the counter for their Counterbalance? The Noble Hierarch or the Ponder looking for your own Counterbalance?
Lorescale Coatl
See here (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=339226&postcount=214).
Another bad topdeck (and as stated previously, you can't afford these)
Only good if played early (again, the game does go longer than it takes for you to play your opening hand, especially since this deck is a control deck at heart), and even then it's not terribly impressive because it doesn't help any bad matchups (unlike the card people are cutting for him: Rhox War Monk). Actually, he doesn't help improve any matchup: against control, he or any other threat is going to be handled anyway (no, this is not a lazy argument: a Trygon Predator or Rhox War Monk is still a solid threat against control), against Aggro, he's not relevant due to not having any impact on the board (not in the long run [if you live long enough for him to grow to decent sizes, you've won anyway - any threat will do] and, more importantly, not directly) and in the mirror nothing but Counterbalance is relevant anyway - don't kid yourself.
And yes, I have played with him enough to make this judgement based on my knowledge of the archetype as well as on empirical data.
Cold-Eyed Selkie
So the guy is only relevant in matchps that are already in your favour and even then not terribly impressive (slow, totally irrelevant clock, narrow)? Good job.
"But, he's terrific with Lorescale Coatl." Yeah, you shouldn't be playing the later anyway. Also, see below.
Sower of Temptation:
See here (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=339662&postcount=2087).

I see a general trend in people liking cards that are oh-so-good-if-this-and-this-and-this-happens i.e. cards that are only potentially strong. In my opinion, these don't have a place in NQG as you have to few cards to interact with each-other (e.g.: even with 6-8 Exalted dudes, having a relevant Selkie is still a rare happening) and because the relative gain in power due to the synergies is not high enough to make up for the relative loss of power of the cards if drawn individually. This is all the more relevant since you don't have access to any form of card advantage and therewith can't neglect a bad draw as easily as other decks.
Furthermore, you don't need to improve your Control/Combo/Mirror/Randomness matchups - you already have all the tools you need to win these consistently if you know what you're doing. What needs work are your Aggro matchups: improving these is what is going to make you perform better on the long run.


Overall, I don't think that it currently gets much better than this list:



/// Maindeck (60 cards)

// Lands (18)
4 Flooded Strand (http://magiccards.info/on/en/316.html)
4 Windswept Heath (http://magiccards.info/on/en/328.html)
3 Tropical Island (http://magiccards.info/be/en/299.html)
3 Tundra (http://magiccards.info/be/en/300.html)
2 Island (http://magiccards.info/apac/en/12.html)
1 Forest (http://magiccards.info/apac/en/11.html)
1 Plains (http://magiccards.info/apac/en/4.html)

// Creatures (13)
4 Tarmogoyf (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/153.html)
4 Qasali Pridemage (http://magiccards.info/arb/en/75.html)
2 Trinket Mage (http://magiccards.info/5dn/en/39.html)
3 Rhox War Monk (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/188.html)

// Spells (29)
4 Brainstorm (http://magiccards.info/mm/en/61.html)
4 Sensei's Divining Top (http://magiccards.info/chk/en/268.html)
4 Counterbalance (http://magiccards.info/cs/en/31.html)
3 { Spell Snare (http://magiccards.info/di/en/33.html) / Daze (http://magiccards.info/ne/en/30.html) / Ponder (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/79.html) }
3 { Spell Snare (http://magiccards.info/di/en/33.html) / Daze (http://magiccards.info/ne/en/30.html) / Ponder (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/79.html) }
4 Force of Will (http://magiccards.info/ai/en/42.html)
4 Swords to Plowshares (http://magiccards.info/ia/en/278.html)
2 Umezawa's Jitte (http://magiccards.info/bok/en/163.html)
1 Engineered Explosives (http://magiccards.info/5dn/en/118.html)

/// Sideboard (15 cards)
2-3 Path to Exile (http://magiccards.info/cfx/en/15.html)
2-3 Krosan Grip (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/202.html)
1-2 Engineered Explosives (http://magiccards.info/5dn/en/118.html)
1-2 Pithing Needle (http://magiccards.info/sok/en/158.html)
1 Relic of Progenitus (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/218.html)
3 Gaddock Teeg (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/248.html)
2 Hydroblast (http://magiccards.info/ia/en/72.html)
1 Blue Elemental Blast (http://magiccards.info/be/en/50.html)


I personally play the list like this (http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=dgbs8px8_4hcj6v6g7&hl=en), but the combination of the two 'Spell Snare, Daze, Ponder' slots as well as the numbers in the sideboard really come down to no more than personal preference - any combination will do just fine.

[Pomaxx]

What needs work are your Aggro matchups: improving these is what is going to make you perform better on the long run.


actually bringing a Hierarch down on your first turn and accelerating into a second turn RWM that gets an exalted trigger on your turn 3 attack step puts you into a very good position against aggro.

aggro has to get rid of RWM asap and bringing him down a turn faster makes a huge difference (as does the exalted he gets).

[johanessen]

@Der_imaginäre_Freund

I differ some aspects about the proposed deck.
Qasali Pridemage 4x? 3x Should be enough. for a disechant-guy.
No space for two copies of vedalken shackes? They are huge against creature based decks. But that also involves the next question.
Why play basic forest? It's really important to set up counterbalance at turn 2, playing basic forest and plains and windswepts instead of polluted doesnt let you do with basic islands. And 18 lands have been not enough for me.
Ponderwise. I suggest 2x. with 4 brainstorms and 4 tops you should get what you want.

I suggest that list.

4 Polluted
4 Flooded
4 Tropical
4 Tundra
2 Islands
1 Plains
Total Lands.. 19

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Pridemage
3 Rhox
Total Creatures.. 10

4 Top
4 CB
4 FoW
4 BS
3 Spell Snare
3 Daze
2 Ponder
4 StP
2 Shackles
1 Jitte
Total Spells.. 31

2 PtE
2 Hydro
1 REB
2 Pithing
2 Relics
3 Gaddoks/Meddling (not sure about em)
2 Krosan
1 Jitte
SideBoard.. 15

I'm not sure about running meddlings or Gaddoks but since i'm runing blue-based manabase i'd go for meddling magis.

Sumarizing,
1-i'd prefer a mana base oriented to set CB asap.
2-Liked the idea of adding Spell Snare since meta is high lvl.
3-Trinket mage didn't get the cut. Maybe need more creatures instead of the solitaire Jitte?
4-Agree on Lorescale, ill try em another day

PostData: If we play Meddlings on side, we could play with 3Pte+1StP MD and 1Pte+1Stp on side being able to name Swords in mirror or against Baseruption which I think is a bad match-up.

[sauce]

rhox seems so hard to cast w/ wasteland being prevalent... why run a 3/4 lifelink guy thats so hard to cast? is life gain so important in your meta game?

why? is there so much aggro? if so why is it not being shut down via stp/cb?
is it that good vs mirror? how can he compete w/ tarmogoyf?

please explain.

[lordofthepit]

Lorescale Coatl: Another bad topdeck (and as stated previously, you can't afford these)

I disagree. Only Tarmogoyf in your build is a better topdeck. Coatl comes down at a 2/2 blocker at the very least and will swing for 3 the very next turn, which is already as good as the Pridemage without the benefit of more draws or considering that the Coatl will continue to grow naturally. By the time you're in topdeck mode, the Coatl's :1::u::g: cost should be irrelevant, plus given that you often want to fetch basic Islands early, he isn't necessarily more difficult to cast than the Pridemage at :g::w: with two off-colors.

He's not as good a blocker as the War Monk the turn he hits, but he swings for at least 3 the very next turn and continues to grow from there. Plus your criticism of not being to afford the Coatl applies even more so with the Warmonk costing :w::u::g:.

He's a better topdeck than Nimble Mongoose. Better than Trygon Predator. Better than Vendilion Clique. Better than Noble Hierarch, which you dislike. Depending on board situation, better or worse than Sower of Temptation. Worse than Mystic Enforcer, to be sure, but that has other issues.

Earlier in the game he at least pitches to Force of Will in a pinch, an option which occasionally proves useful. You can cast him early to bait out counters or removal to cast a Tarmogoyf, or reverse the order if you have the cantrips in hand to make the Coatl bigger. You can keep him at the top of your library to fill the 3 cc niche for Counterbalance.

Consider that these are worst case scenarios, as you can easily draw into a cantrip to make the Coatl huge (he gets +2/+2 per turn at worst if a Top is active), and he can easily swing the game in topdeck mode. I wouldn't necessarily go so far as to call him an auto-include, but I have to seriously question your characterization of him as a "bad card".

[sauce]

also, i think trygon is not worse than pridemage because it is blue (fow) and cmc 3.
other than that, i like qasali pridemage better than trygon. i just wish he was blue white or blue green instead of green white.

[rsaunder]

I disagree. Only Tarmogoyf in your build is a better topdeck. Coatl comes down at a 2/2 blocker at the very least and will swing for 3 the very next turn, which is already as good as the Pridemage without the benefit of more draws or considering that the Coatl will continue to grow naturally. By the time you're in topdeck mode, the Coatl's :1::u::g: cost should be irrelevant, plus given that you often want to fetch basic Islands early, he isn't necessarily more difficult to cast than the Pridemage at :g::w: with two off-colors.

He's not as good a blocker as the War Monk the turn he hits, but he swings for at least 3 the very next turn and continues to grow from there. Plus your criticism of not being to afford the Coatl applies even more so with the Warmonk costing :w::u::g:.

He's a better topdeck than Nimble Mongoose. Better than Trygon Predator. Better than Vendilion Clique. Better than Noble Hierarch, which you dislike. Depending on board situation, better or worse than Sower of Temptation. Worse than Mystic Enforcer, to be sure, but that has other issues.

Earlier in the game he at least pitches to Force of Will in a pinch, an option which occasionally proves useful. You can cast him early to bait out counters or removal to cast a Tarmogoyf, or reverse the order if you have the cantrips in hand to make the Coatl bigger. You can keep him at the top of your library to fill the 3 cc niche for Counterbalance.

Consider that these are worst case scenarios, as you can easily draw into a cantrip to make the Coatl huge (he gets +2/+2 per turn at worst if a Top is active), and he can easily swing the game in topdeck mode. I wouldn't necessarily go so far as to call him an auto-include, but I have to seriously question your characterization of him as a "bad card".
I think "afford" was referring to "the bad topdeck" as opposed to "difficult to cast due to CMC." And Coatl is certainly a lesser topdeck against decks where another creature matters as compared to RWM. Really, it's only a "better" topdeck than pridemage which doesn't necessarily serve the same role as the "big beater," it's really the "disenchant met watchwolf? cool, we needed disenchant."

[lordofthepit]

I think "afford" was referring to "the bad topdeck" as opposed to "difficult to cast due to CMC." And Coatl is certainly a lesser topdeck against decks where another creature matters as compared to RWM. Really, it's only a "better" topdeck than pridemage which doesn't necessarily serve the same role as the "big beater," it's really the "disenchant met watchwolf? cool, we needed disenchant."

It is true that there are situations in which you'd prefer the War Monk (you're on the defensive) or the Pridemage (you need a Disenchant, but not under Humility or likely Counterbalance). But there are also many situations where a Coatl topdeck will put more pressure on your opponent than even Tarmogoyf can, especially with a Top on the board.

I'm not disagreeing that there are uses for the War Monk or the Pridemage, just that Coatl isn't a bad card. I personally run him in conjunction with the Pridemage (and instead of the War Monk).

[Tacosnape]

Lorescale Coatl is only a bad topdeck if:

1. You don't have a cantrip in your hand.
2. You don't have a top in play.
3. You can't topdeck either of those before your next combat step.

And that said, if none of those things happen, he's still 3/3 on his first swing.

That said, Cold-Eyed Selkie and Noble Hierarch both suck. Period.

[Mordel]

So have people..."empirically" determined that snake is better than RWM or is it almost purely a metagame call?

So far it seems to be largely conjecture. I don't really care who's on what side of the fence and I am personally not necessarily married to RWM, but I get pretty good results with him, so I don't really see why I would want to risk switching things up. RWM also has put up fairly tangible results.

I know that it doesn't seem like I am impartial, but it just seems that way because I am a fan of empirical data. Lack of evidence isn't evidence. Let's see some reports and such fuckers! Theory is often pretty difficult to refute, but seeing that theory get supported by results on deckcheck and such lends a great deal of credibility.

[sauce]

can someone explain to me why rhox war monk is even in the deck?

[majikal]

There are way too many Thresh threads. I am playing UGwb Baseruption, and I'm not sure where to post about it, so forgive me if this is out of place.

So far some number of Coatl greater than two has been good. The question on my mind, though, is should I run four or make room for another utility creature or two? I don't like playing only two snakes, so I can't just cut two of them. And the rest of the main deck is pretty tight already.

4x Tarmogoyf
4x Dark Confidant
3-4x Lorescale Coatl
0-2x Sower of Temptation*/Trygon Predator/Vendilion Clique(?) I guess this would be the metagame slot?

2x Vedalken Shackles
0-1x Krosan Grip(?)
2x Ponder
4x Brainstorm
4x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Counterbalance
4x Force of Will
3x Daze
4x Swords to Plowshares

4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
4x Underground Sea
3x Tropical Island
3x Tundra
2x Island

So I guess some explanations: I was simply playing UGW Thresh before I switched to this build, and I kept noticing the lack of any kind of card advantage. I added black solely for Dark Confidant and have been pleased greatly by it. The synergy with top is insane. It also helps you dig into more cantrips to grow your Coatl, and the black mana lets you blow more stuff up with your post-sideboard Explosives! IMO, the black splash is the way to go.

*Sower of Temptation: This is a card about which I am on the fence. Sometimes it is just a blowout, but other times it is just a timewalk for your opponent when they Snuff Out/Swords/Infinite Creature Removal it. Does it even have a place in the deck anymore since we've already got Shackles?

[Mordel]

can someone explain to me why rhox war monk is even in the deck?

They're a big body for three mana that is great for racing and makes many games versus decks that rely on swinging with goyf or small dorks almost unwinnable when they come down with a hierarch on the second turn and are protected with a few counters or a CB. They're obviously very nice against burn and zoo as well.

On more than a few occasions, I have ignored a punched through a goyf/tombstalker that got on the table and proceeded to gain five life a turn and whenever I connected make a ten point swing.

Maybe I am missing something else, but that answer seemed pretty obvious to me.

[gustha]

Lorescale Coatl is only a bad topdeck if:

1. You don't have a cantrip in your hand.
2. You don't have a top in play.
3. You can't topdeck either of those before your next combat step.

And that said, if none of those things happen, he's still 3/3 on his first swing.

That said, Cold-Eyed Selkie and Noble Hierarch both suck. Period.

As a player in some ways "new" to the archetype, I'm atm testing different builds to taste with which I feel more comfortable. FInished my swiss turn on sunday's tournament, I was spying other's game, and saw an interesting list, which I asked the player to see. Here's the list.

4 windswept heath
3 flooded strand
3 tundra
3 tropical island
1 plains
1 forest
4 island

4 noble hierarch
2 kitchen finks
2 vendilion clique
2 rhox war monk
1 jenara, asura of war
3 qasali pridemage
3 lorescale coatl

4 force of will
4 brainstorm
3 counterbalance
4 swords to plowshares

3 sensei's divining top
2 engineered explosives
2 umezawa's jitte
2 vedalken shackles


Side:
2 ethersworn canonist
1 gaddock teeg
2 blue elemental blast
1 hydroblast
2 path to exile
2 tormod's crypt
2 relic of progenitus
1 engineered explosives
2 krosan grip

The deck has obviously some things that do not work (19 lands + hierarch is too much, the cc2 curve is not at all covered, the side has to be re-arranged, jenara sucks, i want a full set of counterbalance, etc.). I've made some changes to the list (+1 oring +1 etutor +1 trinket mage +1 cb -1 lands), and some others are still to test. Some points to underline on this interesting (ihmo) conception of the deck. Also, it resemble more of what in these days it's called bant aggro/aggrocontrol, and in some ways the deck is concieved to have a positive Mu against "classic" threshold.

Hierarch is a card about which I have mixed feelings. If it comes down on turn 1, and accelerates into a t2 monk, it's absolutely insane. However, if it doesn't come down on t1, it's almost useless, so maybe those 3 slots better serve as a ponder or another beater.

The deck has no tarmogoyf!!! Besides the first negative impression a thing like this may cause, there are few words i want to spend in addiction to DIF and Tacosnape.

Thresh players (and not only them) love tarmogoyf for its advantageous cost/power ratio. A cc2 creature that can come in play as a very huge creature is something everybody dream, and tarmogoyf realizes that dream. However, tarmogoyf has an annoying "serra avenger-like effect": if it comes down on t2-3 it's usually no more than a 2/3-3/4 (the latest option being very respectable, the first being no more than a elvish warrior). Coatl can come down t3 as a 2/2 and can grow larger at a decent speed. Obviously tarmo has a point in early game: comes down as a beater and leaves an open mana to manage with cantrip/counterbalance as well. On the other hand, tarmo is a decent target for an early spell snare, while coatl obviously doesn't. Again tarmo can apply a lot of pressure on t4, while coatl simply doesn't if not helped by some exalted guy. Yet coatl grows independently from the grave, while tarmo can stay a 3/4 for the rest of the game (does not happen too often, truth be told).

It is well known what are the strenghts of tarmo over coatl. People simply tend to "forget" the obvious weakness. I premise that whit this topic I aboslutely don't want to state that tarmo is better that coatl in any case, or the contrary. I simply like to advance a difference perspective to which coatl can be seen as another anti-tarmo, and that he sucks while paired with him, while he simply can (must?) replace tarmo and helps us to build a deck against the most used creature of the format. The list i've posted is inf act conceived as a aggrocontrol deck which tends to smooth the cc2 curve in favour of the cc3 curve, abusing of the full power of engineered explosives on that curve: that means, clearing the board off tarmogoyf without losing our pressure on the board, as a single-sided wrath of god. I don't want to claim this is a revolutionary build or something else, I don't really care. I just want heading of the choir and shift the discussion to "coatl is a good card as a beater, along with tarmo?" to "coatl is a solid card by itself, that can replace tarmo in new lists intended to shift away from the cc2 curve which is one of the major fields of battle between magic players?". Discussion of the tone that "coatl sucks because we have tarmo" are repeated over and over. Just try to see things in a differente way. Maybe coatl still sucks after that.:wink:

[Elf_Ascetic]

Thanks for your comparison of Coatl and Goyf, Gustha. I think the better question is: Is Goyf better then Rhox War Monk? yes he is (you obviously stated the reasons: it's 3/4 forever). Is Goyf better then Kitchen Finks? yes he is. I can't understand why this/your list is better than a list with Goyfs. It seems like a poor man solution, and not the optimal.

I've been testing the following list:

4x Tarmogoyf
4x Dark Confidant
3x Lorescale Coatl
2x Vendilion Clique

3x Ponder
4x Brainstorm
3x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Counterbalance
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
2x Spell Snare
2x Vindicate
4x Swords to Plowshares

4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
2x Underground Sea
3x Tropical Island
2x Tundra
1x Island
1x Plains
1x Swamp

[gustha]

Thanks for your comparison of Coatl and Goyf, Gustha. I think the better question is: Is Goyf better then Rhox War Monk? yes he is (you obviously stated the reasons: it's 3/4 forever). Is Goyf better then Kitchen Finks? yes he is. I can't understand why this/your list is better than a list with Goyfs. It seems like a poor man solution, and not the optimal.


Your question is indeed misleading, as I tried to point out in the post above. Someone pointed out (maybe DIF, I don't remember) there is a difference between "mere" beaters (tarmo and coatl, in this case) and "utility" beaters (pridemage, clique, trinket mage, hierarch, trygon, confi, etc. etc.). What I was trying to underline is that people usually ask if tarmo and/or coatl are better than RWM or something else. This is not, I think, a correct question, since the only significative comparison one can state is between cards that cover a similar role. Tarmo and coatl cover a similar role since they are "mere" beaters: they have no relevant abilities but their huge bodies. That's because, I think, DIF states that coatl + tarmo sucks: we don't need 7-8 "mere" beaters: 3-4 it's just enough; then we need utility beaters that impact in some ways on the board. Imho there's no way to pair tarmo and coatl, each one excludes the other as redundant. Asking if coatl is better than RWM or others is a wrong question, since it's the same as asking if tarmo is better that RWM or others (as you did). It's misleading, since RWM is an "utility" creature, that has something to do beyond being a 3/4 all the time (i mean his lifelink ability); the same is true for clique trinket or whatever.
The only card we can compair coatl to is tarmo. So the only question is: is coatl better than tarmo? I don't have an answer to this question, but I am sure that, if arranged properly with some regard to the key role EE can assume in this deck, coatl CAN be better than tarmo, in the sense that it evades some countermagic usually related to tarmo, and that is cc evades some of the more often used mass removal (EE), which wipes away tarmo but usually has harder life to wipe away cc3's.
To summarize:
threshold does not need more than 4 "mere" beaters, so coatl + tarmo will always suck, as many of you from a different point of view have already discovered;
one can't compair tarmo or coatl to utility creatures: it's simply misleading;
the significative questions one may pose are: is a #mere beater name# better than another #mere beater name#?; is that #utility creature name# better than the other #utility creature name#? (e.g.: is tarmo better than coatl? is qasali pridemage better than trygon predator?) It's properly a "philosophical" question.
Finally, I don't claim this list is better than those with tarmo's (not yet, at least); simply, that it provides an effective "mere beater" while trying to gain control of the cc2 curve not only via counterbalance, but also via EE, that works in most case as a single-sided wrath of god, since most of our creatures has higer cc's. At least, it shows that not only a non-graveyard-dependant threshold can be thought and built (as qasali pridemage teaches us), but even a non-goyf-dependant one.

[Tacosnape]

Maybe I've been missing something, but I've always argued that Rhox War Monk was terrible. 3 mana for 3 power is slow in Legacy, and 3/4 is by no means big in Legacy. In addition, he can't be cast if you're shut off either color, and just generally doesn't do enough. Additionally, lifegain is worse in this deck than almost any other non-combo deck, as you typically want lifegain most against Zoo/Sligh/Burn/Aggroish decks, and for most of those we can just get out Countertop and shut off a large portion of the burn spells aimed at our faces.

I like Goyf, and I like Coatl. And in a deck with this much cantrippery, eight guys dedicated strictly to face beating is probably the maximum you want, so anything else I'd run maindeck would do something sneaky (Pridemage, Trygon, Meddling, Sower, etc.)

[Elf_Ascetic]

Although I understand your line of thought, I can't agree with you, Gustha. This deck has is dependant on more then four "mere" beaters. Rhox War Monk is cute (wow, I never thought I would state that anywere), but is nothing more then a "mere" beater with a conditional benefit over a card as Goyf. Apart from that, I would like to say that this decktype needs at least 6 to 7 powerhouses. Tarmogoyf is one, Coatl is the other. Goyfs become better in multiples. So do Coatls.

I agree with your seperation of utilitycreatures and beaters, but I think some assumptions have to be adapted:

First of all: Threshold needs 6-7 "mere" beaters, running less drops your consistency in beating Agro or the mirrormatch.

Secondly, Rhox War Monk is no utility creature. I don't want to go as far as Tacosnape, but I think RWM isn't very suitible for the current metagame. If you're in a meta were Sligh, Burn and Goblins are abundant, by all means, run 4 of them. But in this CounterTop-mirrormeta, I think RWM is just a 3/4 for 3 mana. And that is bad.

[gustha]

I do get the point. My meta changes every tournament, usually is full of gobbos, zoo and things like these (so war monk is good), last sunday was full of black based decks (RWM can be good there too). I treated it as a utility creature since I agree with you it's not nuts as a "mere" beater (a 3/4 for 3...), and so I tried to give him a reason this way. Also, finks cover the same role (in the list above), so I considered them paired with monk for a consistent life gain (and finks survive wrath/deed/explo, and it's good to have something on the table to equip jitte after a mass removal). Also, they help to recover the loss of life due to 8 fetches and the turns we employ to stabilize, like every control deck: in this sense the may be not metacall, but serve a purpose which a "mere" beater as coatl can't serve. (But maybe those 4 slots are better tarmogoyfs.) So the question raises again: it seems to me that you think coatl is clearly superior than monk, for you assume that the lifegain ability is secondary to the aims of the deck, and all in all what makes the difference for an auto-inclusion in this deck is "a matter of size". I interpreted correctly what you mean? And if I did, why there are many people who don't agree, and about what points?

[Elf_Ascetic]

Well, I believe size has its benefits. Coatl grows so absurdly fast when played right that it forms a huge threat to any deck with an empty board. Rhox War Monk is different, he is better in a metagame with burn. An argument against the Coatl is that "it's a bad topdeck". I fail to see why. If you make the correct choices while cantripping, you never have a dead draw or a bad topdeck. You always shuffle away the cards you don't need, etc. If you draw Coatl in turn 1-4, it's perfect. If you didn't find Top or can't continue the stream of cantripping after those turns, you've been playing wrong.

The build of choice depends on the meta. Here a lot of blue is seeing play, and that's the reason why I've chosen for another build then you have. I run a package of 4 Confidant en 2 Clique to gain superior cardadvantage and quality, next to 4 Goyf and 3 Coatls. More then 13 creatures in Threshold is suboptimal, I think less is even better, but I've done not enough testing to conclude that.

[sauce]

i think serendib efreet is better as a beater than rhox war monk. he is easier to cast, has evasion (but loses you life.)

i don't think rhox war monk is necessary, life gain is not something this deck needs.

if the bad matchup is sligh/gobs/burn, why not run aegis of honor/cop:red in the sb and just bye them.

i understand it is a metagame choice, but if youre playing vs gobs, how are you going to get 3 colors w/ wasteland/rishadan port going for the rhox war monk?
sligh should get shut down by cb/top and same w/ burn.

i would almost rather run a burrenton forge tender main than rhox war monk if my metagame was red infested.
he comes down turn1, blocks lackey and lives on, protects you from PoP and even a fat countryside crusher.

now for coatl, is he better than chlorophant? chlorophant grows by +2/+2 every turn after thresh, its a bit harder to cast, but you don't have to keep cantripping to grow him. i don't see any thresh decks running him.

i think if unanswered goyf is way quicker than coatl, so the whole conversation about coatl vs goyf is mind boggling.

goyf comes down as 2/3 or 5/6 depending on the matchup.
look @ ichorid, if they did not win on turn 2, you got a 5/6 beatstick on t2 vs a 2/2 on turn3...?

coatl almost encourages you to play bad by using your brainstorms to grow him. this is not what the deck is about. you're not the aggro, youre the control deck.

only two things i like about rwm, 3cc and he is blue. but so hard to cast, its hardly consistent and usually just a pitch to FoW in my opinion.

[johanessen]

coatl almost encourages you to play bad by using your brainstorms to grow him. this is not what the deck is about. you're not the aggro, youre the control deck.

While Coatle encourages you to play bad, if you play good Coatl can be a very valid beater. Just play Brainstorms as usual and not "w00t it's like a Giant Growth!11"

[majikal]

While Coatle encourages you to play bad, if you play good Coatl can be a very valid beater. Just play Brainstorms as usual and not "w00t it's like a Giant Growth!11"
This. As long as you are just playing your deck he gets frikkin huge. You're still going to use your brainstorms while he is in play. Just use them smartly and not like some stupid combat trick.

[diffy]

Qasali Pridemage 4x? 3x Should be enough. for a disenchant-guy.


He isn't only a Disenchant guy, he's also a good beater. Also, with that many powerful Artefacts/Enchantments out there, which can all single-handedly ruin your day, why would you not want to maximize your outs against them?


Also, I think Trygon is not worse than Pridemage because it is blue (FoW) and cmc 3.

Pitching to Force of Will is a non-issue seeing how you still have a billion blue cards left in the deck. Costing three (and therewith maybe being better against Counterbalance) is an issue I addressed here (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=339662&postcount=2087).



No space for two copies of Vedalken Shackles? They are huge against creature based decks.


They are pretty good, however, they are also slow: a Vedalken Shackles is not going to do much against a horde of Elves/Goblins/Fish or against Goyf Sligh's burn. They are a totally valid inclusion though and I had them in previous builds (starring 19 lands, with Shackles being split with Rhox War Monk and Trinket Mage).



Why play basic Forest? It's really important to set up Counterbalance at turn 2, playing basic Forest and Plains and Windswepts instead of Polluted doesn't let you do with basic islands. And 18 lands have been not enough for me.


Ignoring the fact that against half of the decks out there playing Counterbalance on turn 2 is downright wrong (i.e. against the decks packing Daze and against those packing other sorts of permission [but no relevant clock]), and that against the other half, second turn Counterbalance is also only conditionally good (i.e. against the aggressive decks where Counterbalance turn2 is only the correct play if you have a Top/Brainstorm in hand and/or nothing else to do), having access to off-colour basics lets you win more games than it makes you loose due to not having double-blue early: being able to ignore all kinds of hate (recurring Wastelands, Blood Moon, Back to Basics etc.) and therewith create virtual card advantage against loads of decks translates into more easy wins - at the steep cost of having to be able to build/play your deck correctly.



I'm not sure about running Meddlings or Gaddoks but since I'm running blue-based manabase I'd go for Meddling Magis.


Play Gaddock Teeg. He helps more than Meddling Mage in the matchup where you'd want any of the two: against Control he prevents Engineered Explosives, Wrath of God, Elspeth and Humility -all of which you'd want to name with Meddling Mage- at the same time. Gaddock+Counterbalance is also a sort-of-lock you're asembling more often than not against Control.
Against Combo he prevents all of their means to go off while people can play around Meddling Mage if need be.



Baseruption is a bad match-up.

This is simply untrue - the matchup still comes down to who gets Counterbalance down first and not much else. They don't have more tools to do so than you have, especially not with you having access to Spell Snare and Qasali Pridemage.


Rhox seems so hard to cast w/ Wasteland being prevalent... why run a 3/4 lifelink guy that's so hard to cast? Is life gain so important in your metagame?
Why? Is there so much aggro? If so why is it not being shut down via StP/CB?
Is it that good vs mirror? How can he compete w/ Tarmogoyf?


How is Rhox War Monk hard to cast? The only time you can't cast him (but could cast Lorescale Coatl or similar), with three lands, is if you drew your two basic Islands or three out of the four white mana sources in the deck. Not very probable. As long as you aren't facing mass-Sinkholes, manabase problems are a non-issue with this build and mainly result from insufficient experience anyway.

To address your other point: I don't put my builds together with any metagame in mind because such a thing does not exist in Legacy; I rather aim to have as few bad matchups as anyhow possible. That's where Rhox War Monk comes in: he greatly improves your bad matchups (which most notably are anything putting you on a clock ). That is a good thing, especially since your other matchups are already decent. For sure you do also already have some tools to beat the aggressive decks out there (Tarmogoyf, Swords to Plowshares, early Counterbalance+Top), however, even if you draw any combination of these (which is already only so-and-so likely due to your outs being limited), said aggressive decks/bad matchups still have good chances to win: I've seen Goyf Sligh/Goblins/Elves/etc. win through CounterTop/Goyf-spam/a-spot-removal-here-and-there (or any combination of these) often enough. However, Rhox War Monk, rids your opponent of the possibility to just sit back and amass stuff and then overwhelm you (which is how they win against Goyf-spam or CounterTop) as he allows you to stabilize and race better.
Also, he isn't terrible against anything else either: he stops most guys from attacking, creating stalls which are favourable to you - from my perspective, the longer the game goes (i.e. the longer I don't loose), the better are my chances to win due to superior deck construction/knowledge/experience (and due to Legacy players always screwing up at one point or another).



[I][About Lorescale Coatl]
I disagree. Only Tarmogoyf in your build is a better topdeck.


Tarmogoyf or Trinket Mage (because he stops your top-deck-mode right there by fetching a Sensei's Divining Top) or any cantrip. I'd probably prefer Qasali Pridemage in most cases too because he only takes a little longer to kill the opponent but also acts as an insurance against the random blow-out-draw of your opponent (e.g.: topdeck Vedalken Shackles, or Counterbalance, or similar) - this basically comes down to preferring utility guys over mere beaters and to play-style (see above comment on how stalls are favourable for you).



Consider that these are worst case scenarios, as you can easily draw into a cantrip to make the Coatl huge (he gets +2/+2 per turn at worst if a Top is active), and he can easily swing the game in topdeck mode. I wouldn't necessarily go so far as to call him an auto-include, but I have to seriously question your characterization of him as a "bad card".

If a Top is involved, you're already ahead - it therewith doesn't really matter which beater you just drew. Same is true for a cantrip-heavy draw (on that behalf, do also see what I linked (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=339226&postcount=214) in that post you were responding to).



First of all: Threshold needs 6-7 "mere" beaters, running less drops your consistency in beating Aggro or the mirrormatch.


I'll have to disagree with this statement: in the mirror-match, Coatl is pretty irrelevant in the face of the big players (Counterbalance, Engineered Explosives, Sensei's Divining Top etc.), and even if it boils down to a creature stand-off (which it doesn't very often - creatures are just not the thing that win you the mirror), chances are that Coatl is at most going to make as big an impact as any other semi-relevant creature, (Tarmogoyf, anything with flying, Dark Confidant etc.) - he's going to eat a spot removal before doing anything relevant (especially true post-board) and/or die off Engineered Explosive splash-damage. Au contrary to aforementioned creatures, Coatl is going to give your opponent more time to find a solution though.
Against Aggro, Rhox War Monk can fully qualify as one of the 'mere beaters' you're looking for.



In this CounterTop-mirrormeta, I think RWM is just a 3/4 for 3 mana. And that is bad.

In 'this CounterTop-mirrormeta', you shouldn't be playing Lorescale Coatl either according to your logic - he still gets hit by Counterbalance and isn't a relevant enough clock to seriously put your Counter-Top wielding opponent under any stress (Dreadnought would be such a clock, not Coatl who takes some turns to grow to relevant sizes). Play something like Zur the Enchanter or Mystic Enforcer, Krosan Grip or fucking Ichorid. Here's why you don't do this: even if Counterbalance is the dominant strategy right now, you're not going to face it a relevant amount of times over a tournament to warrant over-metagaming against it - that is the nature of Legacy with its many viable decks and its more casual player base.



But then again, seeing the last few posts, I probably don't have the right skill-set to play this deck anyway (i.e. the ability to always draw the right mix of cantrips and business cards + have CounterTop on-line and hitting by turn2). Also, I'm totally talking theory here.

[johanessen]

Ignoring the fact that against half of the decks out there playing Counterbalance on turn 2 is downright wrong (i.e. against the decks packing Daze and against those packing other sorts of permission [but no relevant clock]), and that against the other half, second turn Counterbalance is also only conditionally good (i.e. against the aggressive decks where Counterbalance turn2 is only the correct play if you have a Top/Brainstorm in hand and/or nothing else to do), having access to off-colour basics lets you win more games than it makes you loose due to not having double-blue early: being able to ignore all kinds of hate (recurring Wastelands, Blood Moon, Back to Basics etc.) and therewith create virtual card advantage against loads of decks translates into more easy wins - at the steep cost of having to be able to build/play your deck correctly.

The reason I insist to be able to land CB on turn 2 is that 10% of my meta is Combo (ANT, Iggy-Pop, mainly) where CounterBalance means games.
Anyway I finally went to your proposed mana base but playing 19 lands. 4 Flooded 4 Heath 4 Tropical 3 Tundra 2 Island 1 Plains 1 Forest

[Mordel]

So, I did some testing with snakes and had taken out hierarchs. My creatures loked something like this:

4x goyf
3x wisecale coatl
2x RWM
4x Qasali Pridemage
1x Mystic Enforcer

I wasn't really pleased with the results. The snakes might have been okay, but over the course of six matches, mws was giving me lots of trouble in drawing or keeping a third land on the table long enough to actually play the snake. There were a few games where he got pretty big and it was pretty cool to have a 9/9 on the fifth turn, but more often than not, I was stuck growing him with my draw phase when he finally saw play because I had been using my cantrips to try to draw a fucking land.

I'm sure this is mostly a symptom of me seeing nothing, but pox or deadguy decks on mws...in about eight games, the snake could have been a clique, serendib or rmw and it wouldn't have really mattered too much. In any event though, I learned something about hierarchs and how much they help me.

They may be weak draws late in the game, but the fact that they prevent me from needing to use cantrips on land drops and also serve to ensure that I make my drops early despite wastelands and such is awesome. I also get my countertop online a turn earlier with them and they also contribute to the redzone. One damage extra damage may not seem too deadly, but with just one exalted guy out(unlikely) a 4/5 goyf turns into a four turn clock, a rwm generates a eight point life swing instead of six and does so a turn earlier.

Hierarchs might seem cute, but they help me out lots. When it comes to landing a CB a turn earlier in the mirror, ignoring an early wasteland and playing a three mana beater a turn early...plus the exalted benefit, which becomes quite cumulative with three pridemages and four hierarchs, I do not see a conditional card.

I completely understand why some people are liking snakes, but I am a person that tends to have anything that can go wrong with mana go wrong and for me, they were quite unspectacular.

[sauce]

How is Rhox War Monk hard to cast? The only time you can't cast him (but could cast Lorescale Coatl or similar), with three lands, is if you drew your two basic Islands or three out of the four white mana sources in the deck. Not very probable. As long as you aren't facing mass-Sinkholes, manabase problems are a non-issue with this build and mainly result from insufficient experience anyway.

To address your other point: I don't put my builds together with any metagame in mind because such a thing does not exist in Legacy; I rather aim to have as few bad matchups as anyhow possible. That's where Rhox War Monk comes in: he greatly improves your bad matchups (which most notably are anything putting you on a clock [i.e. stuff like Goyf Sligh or Tribal Aggro]). That is a good thing, especially since your other matchups are already decent. For sure you do also already have some tools to beat the aggressive decks out there (Tarmogoyf, Swords to Plowshares, early Counterbalance+Top), however, even if you draw any combination of these (which is already only so-and-so likely due to your outs being limited), said aggressive decks/bad matchups still have good chances to win: I've seen Goyf Sligh/Goblins/Elves/etc. win through CounterTop/Goyf-spam/a-spot-removal-here-and-there (or any combination of these) often enough. However, Rhox War Monk, rids your opponent of the possibility to just sit back and amass stuff and then overwhelm you (which is how they win against Goyf-spam or CounterTop) as he allows you to stabilize and race better.
Also, he isn't terrible against anything else either: he stops most guys from attacking, creating stalls which are favourable to you - from my perspective, the longer the game goes (i.e. the longer I don't loose), the better are my chances to win due to superior deck construction/knowledge/experience (and due to Legacy players always screwing up at one point or another).



I am not comparing the RWM to the snake, I think the snake is not an optimal creature for Thresh.
Our metagame has a fair amount of Wasteland and some Stifle/Sinkhole as well. I really don't see the benefit of RWM vs my metagame's worst matchups: elves and suiblack. Elves forest walk all over the monk.

I feel like CB/top is a way better strategy to win any matchup than RWM.
You have to survive til t3 w/o giving an opponent a board that can crush you until you can land some dudes vs aggro.
Forest/Plains in the mana base prevents the plan of T2 CB which I consider key vs a lot of aggro matchups non packing Vials.
Forest/Plains is great vs decks packing Wasteland but not good vs decks packing Sinkhole as they do not help you cast spell snare or divert.

RWM comes down too late, t3 if you're lucky w/ land drops and are not playing vs daze... and even then he can just get sworded - netting you 3 life for 3 mana and a card. This seems like a poor investment to me.

[Mordel]

There may be some, but I do not recall seeing a single fuckin' UGw CB deck that runs RWM without running hierarchs as well. Deckcheck for the win. The hierarchs are also helpful for dealing with decks that attack your manabase for obvious reasons. I know this from practical experience because the vast majority of my matches with my Bant CB/thresh deck are against Eva Green, Deadguy and pox.

RWM also comes down on the second turn more often than not and third turns are almost guaranteed(regardless of a wasteland or stifle generally) with cantrips and tops.


I feel like CB/top is a way better strategy to win any matchup than RWM.

Really? Hmmm. I guess running both is a bad idea then?

[Jaiminho]

There may be some, but I do not recall seeing a single fuckin' UGw CB deck that runs RWM without running hierarchs as well. Deckcheck for the win.

You mean Deckcheck for the lose?

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=25936
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=25041
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=24764
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=24763

And others with less than 33 players that shouldn't be cited. Or should they?

[Aleksandr]

@ Mordel. From your last posts it looks to me that you have somehow same view of how to build NQGw. Could you please post your most recent list with some short reasoning for the not so obvious card choices (namely: non-Goyf, non-FoW, non-BS cards..)

Thanks a lot.

[Skeggi]

I've been using RWM for quite a while in my NQB and other UGw CounterTop builds. I liked the fact that they upped the 3cmc count and the blue card count. But unfortunately he doesn't pack enough power to still make the cut. He's just too small for a 3cmc beater. The lifegaining is cute, but not exactly gamebreaking.

I've been twisting and turning and have come up with the following list:

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Noble Hierarch (!)
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Lorescale Coatl

4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Counterbalance

4 Sensei's Divining top
3 Engineered Explosives

4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
1 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Savannah
2 Volcanic Island

SB:
3 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Krosan Grip
2 Trygon Predator
2 Hydroblast
2 Oblivion Ring

I've splashed red for the Engineered Explosives and so that I could run Pyroblast and Red Elemental Blast in the sideboard, because blue tends to get quite dominant around here. Especially with all the Coatl-NLU builds running about.

The Noble Hierarchs help pay for the Engineered Explosives for either the extra color, activation the same turn, or extra cmc to dodge CB. I'm not entirely sure on her, but as she also wins Goyf wars she's OK at least, still needs some testing though...

Tell me what you think... :cool:

[spirit of the wretch]

I usually don't post a lot here, but Skeggi's list reminds me of an issue I wanted to get your opinion on:
Ponder
For me this card is at least a 3-off in every Threshold.dec I build, but more and more people seem to cut it from their list: Clemens runs Spell Snares in that slot and so does Skeggi although he plays Coatl.
Now, I see how Ponder doesn't really DO anything, in fact it's only a cantrip, but in my opinion the ability to dig through ones deck and to draw whatever you need in any given situation is the main strength of Grow. I don't think it's redundant if you play a full set of Tops (what you arguably should do), as at worst it cycles or provides a shuffle effect if needed. It also fixes your mana (I'm talking especially about the quite common "1 land, 2 cantrip"-hands. You're way better off, if one of those cantrips is a Ponder) and helps you to adept to your opponents strategy much better: If you need to be the aggressor, you dig for beef, if you need to assemble CounterTop as fast as possible, it helps you do so, if you desperatly need removal... you get the idea. Especially the ability to dig for your soft lock is something that I consider pretty valuable. It also helps you to grow your Goyf if you need to have a faster clock.
So in my opinion Ponder really is vital to the deck and I'd like to know why some of you see this differently.

[gamegeek2]

Noble Hierarch is bad. This deck has plenty of mana and ways to find it. If you're concerned about Wasteland/Stifle, play more basics, not 1-mana 0/1s.

Lorescale, on the other hand, is an amazing creature, you should play 4. It's the same argument for Counterbalance - when it's useless, you can pitch it to Force or shuffle it away with Brainstorm/fetches.

[klaus]

I usually don't post a lot here, but Skeggi's list reminds me of an issue I wanted to get your opinion on:
Ponder
For me this card is at least a 3-off in every Threshold.dec I build, but more and more people seem to cut it from their list: Clemens runs Spell Snares in that slot and so does Skeggi although he plays Coatl.
Now, I see how Ponder doesn't really DO anything, in fact it's only a cantrip, but in my opinion the ability to dig through ones deck and to draw whatever you need in any given situation is the main strength of Grow. I don't think it's redundant if you play a full set of Tops (what you arguably should do), as at worst it cycles or provides a shuffle effect if needed. It also fixes your mana (I'm talking especially about the quite common "1 land, 2 cantrip"-hands. You're way better off, if one of those cantrips is a Ponder) and helps you to adept to your opponents strategy much better: If you need to be the aggressor, you dig for beef, if you need to assemble CounterTop as fast as possible, it helps you do so, if you desperatly need removal... you get the idea. Especially the ability to dig for your soft lock is something that I consider pretty valuable. It also helps you to grow your Goyf if you need to have a faster clock.
So in my opinion Ponder really is vital to the deck and I'd like to know why some of you see this differently.

You address a pretty interesting topic.
I've thought about it quite a bit, too but came to no definite conclusion, tbh.

Your arguments in favor of 3/4 Ponder are reasonable, which is, why I'll try to come up with some cons resp. Spell Snare pros, for the sake of a fruitful discussion, I guess.

Spell Snare is currently viewed as the second best counter spell in the format.
I don't need to explain why. Of course it is necessary to compare the relative value of the two cards to be able to come up with a meaningful conclusion.
The problem in doing so is obvious: both cards are awesome at what they do, but they fulfill completely different tasks - one cantripping you into goodness, the other saving you from your opp's goodness.
Spell Snare is especially powerful in the early game - you pretty much want to see it in every starting hand of almost every U/x archetype today. You all know about Snare being able to turn the tables on turn 2 so I won't go into detail here, either.
Let's, at least for now, boil it down to a mirror match perspective.
As SotW pointed out, Ponder helps you assemble the win (at some point) - but Snare (somewhat) ensures your opp. doesn't succeed in doing so.
Now, I could argue that a large chunk of games is decided between turn 1 and 4 and thus Spell Snare is a vital card to help you in getting there during the early game.
-Ah. dinner's ready -> to be continued.

[Mordel]

You mean Deckcheck for the lose?
And others with less than 33 players that shouldn't be cited. Or should they?


There may be some, but I do not recall...

Oops!

@ SasB

It isn't really a spectacular list or anything, but it has been working for me:


// NAME: PingasBantCBThreshtrehshstre

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ALA] Forest (1)
2 [DD2] Island (1)
1 [ALA] Plains (1)
4 [R] Tropical Island
2 [R] Tundra
3 [ON] Windswept Heath

// Creatures
3 [ALA] Rhox War Monk: Ibid. I've addressed why I like them a lot.
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch: Allow me to get set up faster, negate wasteland, sinkhole and daze to an extent, make goyfs punch through cousins etc.
3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage: Somewhat experimental still. They seems to work as a preventative measure, though their exalted on top of a hate bear body is nice.

// Spells
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [DD2] Daze: Was three originally, but I decided that I was not seeing them enough when I was ramping into turn two RWMs and such.
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [CS] Counterbalance
1 [ALA] Oblivion Ring: Random good singleton. Either is a QP #4 or an STP #5 and contributes to a fairly low number of threes.
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top: I think I actually bumped these up to four because I felt that I was not drawing them frequently enough. My actual list is not on this 'puter.

// Sideboard (Kind of random)
SB: 3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg: Good against Dutch Stax and combo to an extent.
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte: shores up matches versus decks with semi to complete aggro plans.
SB: 3 [CS] Jotun Grunt: my gy hate of choice. They are pretty scary when coupled with exalted too.
SB: 1 [LRW] Oblivion Ring: Extra three cc, extra removal. I side it in a fair amount actually.
SB: 3 [DIS] Spell Snare: These may slowly migrate into the MD because I am seeing more and more deadguy and Eva Green.


I recently changed the list up a bit though. I integrated predators into the sideboard to see whether I liked them more than QPs for sure or not mostly.
I am not entirely sure what the exact changes I made were, but I know that I ended up with another top in the main deck and two trygdons in the sideboard. When I get internet back at my place, I'll post the more recent list.

I understand peoples' issue with hierarchs, but I have not had a good time without them. They must be a crutch for terrible players or something because I find them exceedingly helpful.

The low number of three cc cards in the deck is a pain at times and I am looking into changing it around at one point or another in the near future.

[Skeggi]

Ponder
I've been running 4 Ponders, then I cut them to 3, then to 2 and finally I completely cut them. I think in a deck with 4x SDT, 4x Brainstorm and a 7x Fetch you have enough ways to manipulate your library and search for what you need. Also, Qasali Pridemage helps Goyf wars and blows up enchantments, or it can function as a lone beater. With more cards having multiple purposes you're also more likely to find an answer.

I'm still testing the 2 Spell Snares, I'm not solid on them yet. The strength of them is obvious, but once you've assembled CounterTop they're in most cases only useful as FoW-pitch.


Noble Hierarch is bad. This deck has plenty of mana and ways to find it. If you're concerned about Wasteland/Stifle, play more basics, not 1-mana 0/1s.
Noble Hierarch helps build mana which I need, for EE or Top. It's nice to have 3 mana turn 2 so you can drop a Counterbalance and not fear Dazes. It's also nice that Tarmogoyf is bigger than your opponent's Tarmogoyf. I think this list has plenty of reasons to run Noble Hierarch. I must admit, I'm still not sure, but everytime she's in my opening seven I can keep, even if I only have 1 Fetchland or 1 Trop and no cantrips. Which is more likely because I've cut the Ponders and still am only playing 18 lands. Also, I can't afford to play basics in what essentially is a 4c build.

So far I like her, she smoothes things out.

I understand peoples' issue with hierarchs, but I have not had a good time without them. They must be a crutch for terrible players or something because I find them exceedingly helpful.
This.

[chokin]

So I tried my hand at the newer version of UGw Thresh tonight. I did fairly well. 3rd out of 18.

Here's my list:

4 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
3 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Lorescale Coatl

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Snare
4 Counterbalance
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Oblivion Ring

SB (I forgot a huge stack of cards at home so I had to make due)
3 Krosan Grip
3 Pithing Needle
3 Tormod's Crypt
4 Meddling Mage
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Oblivion Ring

Note that I would have subbed Mages for at least one Explosive, possibly some Diverts or Blue Blasts.

Match 1 vs Esper Artifacts
G1 - I dominated his every turn until he died. Between counters and Qasali owning his artifact land (only access to blue at the time) I demolished him with a Coatl.
G2 - I pushed him to ~11, he plays Scourglass off the topdeck to wipe my board clean, but I saved 2 Goyf to push the last bit of damage through.

Match 2 vs Burn
G1 - I got a terrible start. Forest was my only land with a Top for like 4 turns. He has Fanatics beating me down for a while before I play QP. I chump one, he finishes it, deals me 1 with the other guy, sacs and Fireblasts.
G2 - First turn Top, second turn CB. An easy win from here. He gets stuck on one land. I play Coatl, he attempts to Bolt it, but I Brainstorm saving the snake.
G3 - Same as G2.

Match 3 vs Angel Stax
G1 - He got stuck on Wasteland and City. I countered everything but Crucible. I nab basics to play around Wasteland. He lands a Geddon eventually, I Daze even though he has land open to pay just to save the land. We both play out lands and I roll out creatures while he runs into CB revealing 3cc cards to stop Prison and other shenanigans. Goyfs end up coming down after I get a Trop on the table and his answers are too little too late.
G2 - First turn Crucible then nothing. Draw go on both sides for a long time. He deals himself a ton of damage trying to get stuff out, only to meet a bunch of counters. I land a Coatl, but he has Maze of Ith, nulling it. He drops face down Angel, and I go defense mode until I draw double STPs and then a couple Qasali ripping away his Crucible and pushing a little damage through every turn til the games over.

Match 4 vs The Mighty Quinn/MWC
G1 - Painfully slow. Goes back and forth. Midgame, my Coatl grows to a 12/12, but I can't manage to counter his Pulse of the Fields, so he sits around 18 before my Coatl meets an STP. Board pretty much resets, and play Coatl and QP which runs into his Decree of Justice tokens. He ends up winning via Eternal Dragon.
G2 - He SBs in a couple Ajani and gets to almost 30 life before I ORing it. He ORings back and keeps applying pressure. It goes back to answering answers with answers until I lose the game to a 60/60+ token.

What I've learned: QP is amazing in Thresh. Sometime in M4G1, I got to nuke a Runed Halo, which would have ended the game if he weren't in the deck. I didn't like seeing too much Coatl because the games where I had him, I wanted more mana open. But there were a few times where it totally outclassed Goyf (like beating for 10+ a turn). Spell Snare proved to be really lackluster. I might stick it in the board. Every time I saw it, I wished it was anything else. I think I used them 2 times in my 4 matches. I'd like to get some EEs back in the deck. ORing, but it usually was QP #5.

EDIT: (more like adding) Noble Heirarch is terrible imo. I've always felt that Thresh plays high quality creatures for cheap. Tarmogoyf is an undercosted beater. Coatl has some serious grow potential. QP is an amazing utility creature. Noble Heirarch is pretty much BoP with Exalted every time I tested it. RWM is probably better than NH. It just sucks that RWM requires you to have all of your colors out. One mana disrupt and he could be delayed many turns. Coatl suffers from similar issues, but requies one less color. RWM is just out of Bolt range while Coatl takes two draws to stay alive, but Coatl feels more like a finisher that you save until you have CB Top or strong protection to back him up. I'm not ruling RWM out, just don't think he's right for Thresh until further testing proves that he's reliable and valuable.

[Clark Kant]

Hierarch acclerates you, speeds up your whole game by a full turn. It only takes up slots that should go to land, so stop thinking its taking the place of a creature. 17 lands is the absolute max w hierarch, I do well w 16. You have cantrips to not miss early land drops. Exalted (esp w RWM) and waste/moon immunity is awesome too. You should play it.

[memnarch]

I'm still testing the 2 Spell Snares, I'm not solid on them yet. The strength of them is obvious, but once you've assembled CounterTop they're in most cases only useful as FoW-pitch.


This is why i like to run daze over snare. because daze doubles as a CC2 for counterbalance while cheating and only being a 0CC, isn't that sneaky?

[Jaiminho]

Hierarch acclerates you, speeds up your whole game by a full turn. It only takes up slots that should go to land, so stop thinking its taking the place of a creature. 17 lands is the absolute max w hierarch, I do well w 16. You have cantrips to not miss early land drops. Exalted (esp w RWM) and waste/moon immunity is awesome too. You should play it.

So it's either 16/17 lands + 4 Hierarchs or 20/21 lands? Plain wrong -- that thing does take other slots.

[memnarch]

So it's either 16/17 lands + 4 Hierarchs or 20/21 lands? Plain wrong -- that thing does take other slots.

And it also dies to devastating dreams along with all your other lands. Then your up LD creek without a paddle. Not saying he isn't worth it. But you can still run 16/17 lands with no Hierarch if your running top cantrips etc. But he may be worth running.

[Kyachi]

Granted that I haven't actually play a deck with Hierarch IRL, but when I've played against him in tournaments and on MWS, or when I've used him on MWS, I've always wanted to make him something else. Hierarch is a horrible top-deck when you want something with gas. One of my favorite things about counterbalance decks these days is that almost all the cards (sans counters and periodically StP) are relevant no matter when you draw them. If you're looking at an open board, or a board where you're losing, and both you and your opponent are sitting on relatively equal lands, it's a total dead-draw.

Personally, I feel like the dynamic of threshold has shifted away from incremental gains (which you get from Hierarch in the way of mana boost and exalted) toward just bomb-y cards like Tarmogoyf and Counterbalance (which is the reason that so many people are dropping most cantrips -- why dig for your good cards when you can just have the good cards in the first place, and more of them?). Obviously, your mileage may vary, but my list is so tight right now that I couldn't conceive of dropping anything especially land, for a 0/1, unless he won the game.

Really, if you want to win tarmogoyf wars, don't screw around with exalted. Just play shackles, sower, or mind harness. Both of those former are win conditions on their own, whereas Hierarch certainly is not.

[Citrus-God]

The point of cantrips is to find mana early game, then reject mana midgame in favor of actual cards. This was how you played Turbo Xerox and this is how you played Thresh back then. Noble Hierarch is a good card, but it should not be replacing cantrips.

[GrAsH]

I'm trying to build this deck, and I currently I'm building this version:

4 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswepth Heath
2 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Lorescare Coatl
3 Qasali Pridemage

3 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Spell Snare
4 Daze
1 Krosan Grip
4 Force of Will
4 Sensei's Divining Top

Can it be optimized? I'm going to test this build now. I can also take 1 ponder and 1 daze and put 2 shackles to win goyf wars.

[Jaiminho]

And it also dies to devastating dreams along with all your other lands. Then your up LD creek without a paddle. Not saying he isn't worth it. But you can still run 16/17 lands with no Hierarch if your running top cantrips etc. But he may be worth running.

I've played DIF's 16 lands version, but I'm talking about more recent lists, which shifted up the mana curve a little bit to include Trygon/Rhox/Trinket or whatever. In these lists, playing 16 lands is not good.

[Goblin Snowman]

I'm trying to build this deck, and I currently I'm building this version:

4 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswepth Heath
2 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland



I guess Wasteland seems kind of random. I hate having non-Islands in this deck, but the increased land count seems good. Personally, I'd rather have just blue lands, or lands and spells, than Wasteland. Threshold is no longer the sort of deck that capitalizes on tempo gains (this is less true for some UGr lists) which is what Wasteland gives you.

Edit: I should have mentioned earlier that you will want basics. I run two Islands and a Forest, though I'm considering just making it Islands as Blood Moon isn't as relevant as it once was. If you don't have a basic Forest, there isn't any reason to run Windswept Heath over Polluted Delta, unless you are limited in your card pool.




4 Tarmogoyf
3 Lorescare Coatl
3 Qasali Pridemage


Both of your beaters are just undercosted vanilla guys, which fold to swords. You're kind of threat light, so you really pick up your cards to a Humility (excluding drawing your one-of Krosan Grip) or Wrath of God.


3 Counterbalance This is wrong. I hope it's obvious why.


4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Spell Snare
4 Daze
1 Krosan Grip
4 Force of Will
4 Sensei's Divining Top

I would personally get rid of one spell snare and one Daze (they serve a really similar purpose and seven is just redundant). This may be a good drop for Shackles, as Shackles is house against just about everything.


Can it be optimized? I'm going to test this build now. I can also take 1 ponder and 1 daze and put 2 shackles to win goyf wars. See above, I suppose. Shackles is amazing, as is Sower, but if you want, additional K-Grips may help here too, as they help you get around other Shackles (and conveniently cost three). If you do put in Shackles, certainly reconsider using Wastelands and just put in more Islands.

[Nihil Credo]

From the last DTBF update:


A second important change involves how Threshold decks are counted; in the last year the archetype has evolved to the point that the old categorisation by their splash colour (or lack thereof) makes little sense.

Today, the one clear split is between decks packing the maindeck Counterbalance/Top combination and those favouring an aggressive, tempo-driver approach with Daze, Stifle, and Wasteland. The latter decks are quite well established, with only a few secondary choices being discussed (mostly additional threats such as Dreadnought or Alara Reborn creatures) and splashing exclusively either Red or Black.

Counterbalance decks, on the other side, exist in a continuum, from the classic Mongoose builds to the Chicago lists to those incorporating additional tricks (Survival, Natural Order, etc.); they also exist in pretty much every possible colour combination that includes Blue and Green, from two to four colours.
If some clear division in approaches emerges, this will eventually be adopted in both thread organisation and tournament tallies. For the time being, all CounterTop decks that do not fall into any established category, i.e. that follow the game plan of "establish the Balance soft-lock and play good creatures", will get dumped into one format-leading cauldron.

In accordance with the above, this thread is being locked and will eventually be archived. You may continue your discussion in either the CounterTop thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13716) or the Tempo Thresh (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13715) thread, as appropriate.