[Deck] 43 Lands

[GoldenCid]

I apologize for missing that Legacy Champs finish! I did not see that one, and I think I am going to give a non e-tutor build a shot at the next week legacy event, and see how it plays. There are a few omnitell players at my shop, and that matchup has been abysmal. Raven's crime seems pretty good against all the slow grindy decks in my meta.

Trying to return to lands after a time...
Guys Nowadays, what do you think it's the best color combination and why...if you can be specially meticulous beetwen UGw and UGb.

UGb
UGw
UGr
UG

Thx!!!

GC.

[cuthbertthecat]

Trying to return to lands after a time...
Guys Nowadays, what do you think it's the best color combination and why...if you can be specially meticulous beetwen UGw and UGb.

UGb
UGw
UGr
UG

Thx!!!

GC.

UGB is better than UBw, both of which are better than rug and ug, but I think 4 color is the best list.

[movingtonewao]

any reasons to support this opinion? I started off with the E tutor build, then moved on to the intuition/E tutor hybrid after being convinced by your lists. Still not sure about the ravens crime builds as I've never really played with them.

[cuthbertthecat]

any reasons to support this opinion? I started off with the E tutor build, then moved on to the intuition/E tutor hybrid after being convinced by your lists. Still not sure about the ravens crime builds as I've never really played with them.

I just like having a higher density of business rather than things like Raven's Crime that aren't always what you need. Enlightened Tutor and Intuition are both very versatile which is why I play both and fewer cards that fill one role only. I've played with the Crime lists and they're very good, but my preference favors more tutors. A lot of this deck is personal preference though, so just play with as many different lists as possible and see which one fits your playstyle the best.

[Phelix]

I agree with cuthbert here - except i have not played enlightened tutor enough to validate that side of the argument, but threat density is more imporant. And since white gives us collonade too, id suggest adding that, so a total of 4 man-lands + wurm harvest.

[GoldenCid]

I agree with cuthbert here - except i have not played enlightened tutor enough to validate that side of the argument, but threat density is more imporant. And since white gives us collonade too, id suggest adding that, so a total of 4 man-lands + wurm harvest.

Do you mean something like this?

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9241&iddeck=67497

[TraxDaMax]

Do you mean something like this?

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9241&iddeck=67497

Cut
1 Mindslaver
1 Smokestack

Add

+2 Enlightened tutor

List woule be much better. Personally I like Oblivion Stone maindeck when playing Enlightened tutor.
But from testing I can say that Smokestack and Mindslaver are often just overkill.

[Fade]

I'm the lands player from SCG:Indy. The version of the deck I played was very similar to Bobby Kovac's list, minus the second raven's crime and plus a main deck pithing needle. I ended up talking to him after I 4-0'd the legacy challenge with an E-tutor build I borrowed from a friend at SCG:Cincy. From what I can tell, my personal preference is the raven's crime version. E-tutor wasn't very exciting to me as it's naturally card disadvantage and having to rely on a spell to resolve in a deck without counterspells is not where I want to be.

My two loses were to back-to-back UW Miracle opponents. One opponent was Justin Adams who ended up making top 8 and all around was a nice guy to play with and the other was against the most annoying opponent I played all day who took advantage of having the seat facing the clock and playing ridiculously slow. In both matches, I ended up losing to Jace, which is something I need to learn how to answer better (I have only played the deck once before SCG:Cincy).

The version I played only had 2 Creeping Tar Pits for a win con but I think I would have liked at least one Mishra's Factory or even a Nephalia Drownyard as a different threat. Has anyone experimented with Drownyard yet and did it perform well?

[Phelix]

@GoldenCid

Yes i like that build, but its also an almost identical list, including sideboard to the list i finished 16th with at GP Ghent :)

As someone else posted, id remove the mindslaver, but NOT the smokestack. Imo smokestack is not overkill but a fantastic card in the maindeck, ive been convinced of this for years. it solves jace and basic lands for us. its synergy with the rest of our deck is amazing - tabernacle, mazes. Its good vs aggro-control, its great vs control. love the card.

[bartmanqc]

Hey guys !

I've been facing this BG Pox for the last two weeks. It uses the Lftl engine with liliana, some abrupt decay, bojuka bog, mishra's factories and a bunch of extirpate and surgicals in the board...

I seem to have a lot of trouble winning against other lftl deck. And when they resolve lili or even Garruk, it's seems unwinnable..

What's is the plan against these type of decks? Extirpate in the board ?

Thx

P.S. I added a Colonnade yesterday after the Felix's post and I'm really digging it. Cost a lot to make a dude, but the life goes down fast and I like the fact that the color producing/requirement is different than the tar pit.

[Phelix]

your gameplan vs them should be chalice to beat extirpate/surgical

they probably only have 1/2 bogs. (probably 1). after that, its your whole deck vs their Lilly. seems winnable. their discard and removal is irrelevant.

sideboarding our confidants increases threats. all we need to do, is make sure lilly doesnt ulti more than once a game.

smokestack also helps here, since it attacks all sides of their gameplan without using the yard. and your stone/explosives all kill their key stuff. its even better that their clock is quite slow.

[bartmanqc]

Yes, chalice is necessary. But the problem is that the first game takes forever. So If you lose the first game, you have to be very proactive to win the second one because they can just stall the game like we do. But I'll try Smokestack for sure (its one of my favorite card :P). Seems like a good plan. Also, I tried SDT in the main. I think i prefer it over the Sylvan Library because of Academy Ruins. It can also dig faster if you can't afford the life loss of Library.

[Resist_Temptation]

If for instance I am playing Bobby Kovacs list from the scg opens, what exactly am I looking to board in during the Omni tell matchup? I have been boarding in 2 krosan grip, 3 trinisphere. I have been taking out 3 intuition,and 2 manabond. Is this strategy correct? or should I be boarding in more? I also tried cursed totem, but don't know if shutting off griselbrands draw is worth the slot?

[cuthbertthecat]

Hey guys !

I've been facing this BG Pox for the last two weeks. It uses the Lftl engine with liliana, some abrupt decay, bojuka bog, mishra's factories and a bunch of extirpate and surgicals in the board...

I seem to have a lot of trouble winning against other lftl deck. And when they resolve lili or even Garruk, it's seems unwinnable..

What's is the plan against these type of decks? Extirpate in the board ?

Thx

P.S. I added a Colonnade yesterday after the Felix's post and I'm really digging it. Cost a lot to make a dude, but the life goes down fast and I like the fact that the color producing/requirement is different than the tar pit.

It's much worse for them to see a loam from us, we get to turn the extra lands into onboard advantage, which just wrecks their plan. Also, if you cant stop liliana from ulting, just hold onto some green sources. the piles will probably be green sources-other cards, so getting to keep other cards and then loaming back more green sources is just insane. After board, just bring in bobs and try not to get them extirpated.

[OneBigSquirrelGod]

If for instance I am playing Bobby Kovacs list from the scg opens, what exactly am I looking to board in during the Omni tell matchup? I have been boarding in 2 krosan grip, 3 trinisphere. I have been taking out 3 intuition,and 2 manabond. Is this strategy correct? or should I be boarding in more? I also tried cursed totem, but don't know if shutting off griselbrands draw is worth the slot?

Siding in Cursed Totem is totall worth siding in IMO. aze of Ith is a dead card X3 (save one for the Griselbrand). Tabernacle is awful in the MU, Bojua Bog is Bad, Manabond is bad, Intuition is alright to keep it since it can find you 3 Trinispheres. So Do something like

-3 Maze of Ith
-1 Tabernacle
-2 Manabond
-2 Explosives
-1 Bojuka Bog
-1 Zuran Orb
-1 Tranquil Thicket

+4 Dark Confidant
+3 Trinisphere
+2 Krosan Grip
+1 Cursed Totem
+1 Ensnaring Bridge

It is a lot, but the tranformation is so powerful, you won't regret siding it all in. I don's seem to ever cast Trinisphere against them, I just let it sit in my hand. It is easy to deal with Omniscience, because Trinisphere is the best answer to that card (hands down). Ive seem Thalia and Labrotory/Rule of Law beaten several times. This is a matchup where Bob+Crime=a total blowout.

Lands in the top 16 of New Orleans (91 people, but still, great job Jody Keith!). He lost to RUG Delver by an insane hand (because RUG can have them), and Chi's Miracles, which won the tourney.

[GoldenCid]

I think that bobby is a steelpulse player witha very cold mind...winning with just 2 tar pits takes so long...off course lands itself is a slow kill but this is almost an extreme. Black give us Worn Harvest to short the subject.

GC.

[OneBigSquirrelGod]

I think that bobby is a steelpulse player witha very cold mind...winning with just 2 tar pits takes so long...off course lands itself is a slow kill but this is almost an extreme. Black give us Worn Harvest to short the subject.

GC.

(don't know if this a compliment or something else)

Lands is a control deck. You don't play short, sweet games. You obtain position of the board, and then you execute. The deck can win fast, which I have. I used to sideboard Worm Harvest. Didn't fit my play style, being so steelpulsive... If I wanted to win fast, I would play Goblins... Adding more kill mechanics to the main takes away from the control. I play 2 Tarpits. Others run 1 Tarpit and 1 Mishra's Factory. Phelix ran a Worm Harvest, Colonnade, Factory, and Harvest. The European Metagame had a lot more combo, which you would need to have a faster kill.

[nola_gold]

I played lands in scg nola to a 10th place, very close to bobby's list except minus a manabond plus a sylvan. For note this is wrong in that I wanted it to power dredge with life game one. Problem os game ones the manabonds are better with loam game one, although it does play well as a 5th bob in post boarded matches

[nola_gold]

Also I played a second cursed totem in the board for mav, which really was bc i thought I needed a crutch for the match. It csme in handy vs my rd2 opponents board or knight pridmage double heirarch deathrite savannah. Go figure. In matchups I went 2-0 vs miracles, 2-0 vs. mav splash black, 2-0 vs. esperblade, 2-0 vs. dredge, took the wrong line and lost to rug in 3 (sickest draws) 2-1 vs. rug then bc there were more 13pts than 15pts I had to play for top 8 vs. miraclez that eventually won the whole thing. In hindsight I should have tried to play loam into a countertop based on how few 2s miracles actually play. As far as the tarpits, 2 is three right number. After taking that beating vs. chi ho's postboard geist makes me want to play a factory to block or even attack a jace, but really double blue is harder to come by if you do. Great deck, excited to keep playing it, and special thanks to mr. Bobby for the tips.

[GoldenCid]

(don't know if this a compliment or something else)

Lands is a control deck. You don't play short, sweet games. You obtain position of the board, and then you execute. The deck can win fast, which I have. I used to sideboard Worm Harvest. Didn't fit my play style, being so steelpulsive... If I wanted to win fast, I would play Goblins... Adding more kill mechanics to the main takes away from the control. I play 2 Tarpits. Others run 1 Tarpit and 1 Mishra's Factory. Phelix ran a Worm Harvest, Colonnade, Factory, and Harvest. The European Metagame had a lot more combo, which you would need to have a faster kill.

Please dont misunderstand me. It is a compliment, but I felt that one could do the thing a bit faster when going to a very large tournament.

[OneBigSquirrelGod]

Please dont misunderstand me. It is a compliment, but I felt that one could do the thing a bit faster when going to a very large tournament.

Big tournaments are even better. Most people don't know how to play against the deck, so grinding out game one is so beneficial for you, since you most likely will not finish game two.

[movingtonewao]

sorry to go a little bit off topic, but what is 'steel pulse'? I tried google and i found some metal band.

[GoldenCid]

Big tournaments are even better. Most people don't know how to play against the deck, so grinding out game one is so beneficial for you, since you most likely will not finish game two.

You are right if you assume that you will always win game one. Otherwise you loose because there is no time for the second one.


@steel pulse: sorry, english is not my native language. What I mean with this is that bobby takes always right decisions through time. It means in spanish: pulso de acero o pulso firme.

GC

[GoldenCid]

Big tournaments are even better. Most people don't know how to play against the deck, so grinding out game one is so beneficial for you, since you most likely will not finish game two.

You are right if you assume that you will always win game one. Otherwise you loose because there is no time for the second one.


@steel pulse: sorry, english is not my native language. What I mean with this is that bobby takes always right decision through time. It means in spanish: pulso de acero o pulso firme.

GC

[movingtonewao]

RTR really gave people toys to wreck us with. Deathrite Shaman and Rest in Peace are both really annoying. the shamans in BUG are happily chewing up my LFTLs in G1.

[Phelix]

RTR really gave people toys to wreck us with. Deathrite Shaman and Rest in Peace are both really annoying. the shamans in BUG are happily chewing up my LFTLs in G1.

Rest in peace is a good sideboard card. Shaman is almost irrelevant. his ability works only once a turn, and he doesnt have haste. should be reasonably easy to play around.

Locally my meta has switched a bit to more combo, and thats bad :)

last 3 turnies:

3-0-2 (standard version)
4-0 (beat storm combo twice, and sneakshow) (e-tutor build)
2-3 (1-1 vs storm combo) (e-tutor build)

[GoldenCid]

Wow beating combo twice! Can you tell us how were those matches?

[movingtonewao]

im guessing he had early chalice into trinisphere. that helps.

regarding shaman. No it is not easy to play around.
He eats up life from the loam anytime as he pleases.
If you use cursed totem, he has abrupt decay for it since he's in BG colours.

Wonder if anybody has a solution. EE is one, but that doesn't take away the fact that shaman is annoying.

I was chatting with cuthbertcat over facebook some time ago and he suggested a singleton dark tutelage in the maindeck. You can tutor for it via Etutor.
that way you don't lose your entire card advantage engine G1 just because someone got his shaman online and you're staring at those life from the loams in your hand.

[TraxDaMax]

im guessing he had early chalice into trinisphere. that helps.

regarding shaman. No it is not easy to play around.
He eats up life from the loam anytime as he pleases.
If you use cursed totem, he has abrupt decay for it since he's in BG colours.

Wonder if anybody has a solution. EE is one, but that doesn't take away the fact that shaman is annoying.

I was chatting with cuthbertcat over facebook some time ago and he suggested a singleton dark tutelage in the maindeck. You can tutor for it via Etutor.
that way you don't lose your entire card advantage engine G1 just because someone got his shaman online and you're staring at those life from the loams in your hand.

I have been using Dark Tutelage for quite some time, and in a e.tutor build it's just too good.

I think for Shaman we need to try and get either d.tutelage up, or make sure to have a cycle land in hand before playing loam.
Also, we run Academy Ruins. Why are you scared to lose an artifact?

[GoldenCid]

im guessing he had early chalice into trinisphere. that helps.



I guess it too...but what i was referring to how did he face both MU. What were the opening hands and game plan. Sideboard and so on...

[attemanden]

Hey guys.

I've problems beating relic of progenitus in aggro/control decks like RUG and merfolks and im not sure how to beat them. well without the relics im fine, but when the GY removal begins i find it hard to make a counter to it. i have 4 chalice in my board, and the standard plan will ofc. be put it down on 1. but it can be counted and they seem to find relics faster than i can find my chalices. would it be right to side in som krosan grip to answer the relics? or should i be able to find another way around this?

[TraxDaMax]

Hey guys.

I've problems beating relic of progenitus in aggro/control decks like RUG and merfolks and im not sure how to beat them. well without the relics im fine, but when the GY removal begins i find it hard to make a counter to it. i have 4 chalice in my board, and the standard plan will ofc. be put it down on 1. but it can be counted and they seem to find relics faster than i can find my chalices. would it be right to side in som krosan grip to answer the relics? or should i be able to find another way around this?

Well to me the only real prolem relic should be giving you is if you only have loam in the yard. And then still you should be able to grind them out with Maze of Ith, your own manlands, ensnarring bridge, wastelands, Explosives, oblivion stone etc...

Lets say, you just played loam, and grabbed yourself a fetch and wasteland back. They clear the graveyards.
You still got the CA out of it, they just cycled a card.
Relic in Rug delver even helps you by shrinking mongoose and Tarmogoyf, buying you more time to grind it out.
Oh, not to mention I forgot Crucible of Worlds, which doesn't feel the graveyard hate that much as loam.

[TBryant23]

If you know they're bringing in hate like crypt, spellbomb, relic, try to always have a green mana up to cycle the tranquil thicket and dredge in response. No need to waste space on Krosan Grip in that scenario.

[cuthbertthecat]

Hey guys.

I've problems beating relic of progenitus in aggro/control decks like RUG and merfolks and im not sure how to beat them. well without the relics im fine, but when the GY removal begins i find it hard to make a counter to it. i have 4 chalice in my board, and the standard plan will ofc. be put it down on 1. but it can be counted and they seem to find relics faster than i can find my chalices. would it be right to side in som krosan grip to answer the relics? or should i be able to find another way around this?

Against merfolk sideboard confidants are very helpful, along with o-stone and explosives. Against RUG the chalice plan is usually good enough to just beat them, it doesn't usually matter if you can loam.

[movingtonewao]

RUG isn't hard, if you can get past the early game or stick a chalice at 1 its game. The problem comes when they stick a T1 delver that flips on T2 (solution: maze) or a mongoose that goes all the way (solution: explosives). Goyf/ooze can just be mazed.

[attemanden]

well i usually win game 1. but after sideboard they put the GY hate, and my mazes cant stop them since they waste and remove making me defenseless. but guess theres simply nothing to do in such situations.

[movingtonewao]

play a slower G1 and try to grind it out. we have many ways to annoy them too. we have our own waste, we have mazes/tabernacle, and if it drags further, chasm lock. you can use mishra's factory to chump if you want. you can tutor for ensnaring bridge and keep hand empty using manabonds. and so on.

[attemanden]

woud you suggest the E-tutor build to ensure finding the needed artifacts? i find intuition a bit too slow vs spell pierce and other counters.

[cuthbertthecat]

woud you suggest the E-tutor build to ensure finding the needed artifacts? i find intuition a bit too slow vs spell pierce and other counters.

I would, others wouldn't. Try several lists out and play whichever one you feel more comfortable with, you'll win more with that one.

[movingtonewao]

i was thinking the OP should include a raven's crime list.

[cuthbertthecat]

i was thinking the OP should include a raven's crime list.

Yeah it definitely should. They weren't really a thing when the primer was written. you should message tao about it.

[movingtonewao]

i doubt tao is even active i haven't seen him post anything on the lands thread for a really long time :(

[TraxDaMax]

RUG isn't hard, if you can get past the early game or stick a chalice at 1 its game. The problem comes when they stick a T1 delver that flips on T2 (solution: maze) or a mongoose that goes all the way (solution: explosives). Goyf/ooze can just be mazed.

Also don't forget that you can get around your own chalice on 1 with Enginereed Explosives, by tapping one color mana and 1 colorless mana(wasteland or port) to still get around your own chalice and put it on 1

[movingtonewao]

aye. my take on RUG after playing like 12345 games against it: the only way they can beat us is to screw us in the early game and stick an early threat without us having an answer. once we stabilise and get our mazes and other shit online...they're goners.

[Phelix]

but what i was referring to how did he face both MU. What were the opening hands and game plan. Sideboard and so on...


I play 4 chalice of the void and 3 trinisphere in the sideboard. Also krosan grip for some builds. i sideboard up to 12 cards. including 4 confidants.

during the second turney, i game 1 both times, and won games 2+3. I basically kept every hand that could produce chalice. resolving trinisphere was gg every game.

during the second turney i added 1 thalia to the sideboard, and switched a chalice to main. this gave me a game 1 win vs storm, but i lost games 2+3. game two i lost after having chalice 1 turn two.he played 5 cc 1 spells, got threshold and used 2 cabal ritual to get and nauseam ftw :/

[movingtonewao]

just wanted to chime in on how ridiculously crappy the metagame is for graveyard recursion decks like ours right now. In one day playtesting at the LGS, i faced:
snapcaster + surgical
deathrite shaman
scavenging ooze
rest in peace

and guess what, people know that we're packing 4 confidants g2.
yes I know shaman and ooze can be dealt with using cursed totem, yes I know if they abrupt decay your totem/whatever, you can find it back via academic ruins, but it still is annoying.

I'm not saying we shouldn't play lands, just ranting off a bit having had a bad day.

[Anen]

just wanted to chime in on how ridiculously crappy the metagame is for graveyard recursion decks like ours right now. In one day playtesting at the LGS, i faced:
snapcaster + surgical
deathrite shaman
scavenging ooze
rest in peace

and guess what, people know that we're packing 4 confidants g2.
yes I know shaman and ooze can be dealt with using cursed totem, yes I know if they abrupt decay your totem/whatever, you can find it back via academic ruins, but it still is annoying.

I'm not saying we shouldn't play lands, just ranting off a bit having had a bad day.

I played 2 tournaments last week-end. Hate was:

R1, 2-1: MD Shaman (I saw 7 shamans within 3 games)
R2, 1-0: RiP (G2 went to time)
R3, 1-2: Combo Storm (Should have won G3, I took the wrong land on Tolaria West. Wasteland instead of the amazing Bojuka Bog..)
R4, 2-0: Nothing relevant
R5, 0-2: RiP

R1, 2-1: Nothing relevant
R2, 1-2: RiP + Extirpate
R3, 0-2: Extirpate
R4, 2-0: Extirpate
R5, 2-0: Extirpate

I personally don't care of Extirpate as it just remove 4 cards. But I understand it can be a little more painful when paired with Snapcaster. Usually, 1-2 Extirpate is fine; more suck as #1 targets are Maze, Wasteland and Loam.
About RiP, this is a huge blow out when played. It is almost impossible to recover. It nukes your graveyard, and keeps nuking it if you don't blow it. Each time I see White in my opponent deck, I'll side in my Krosian Grips, CB or not CB. This card is Tormod's Crypt + Leyline of the Void for 2 mana..

Anyway, I am thinking to go a more Eternal Garden-way with this deck (ie more Crucibles and less Loam in order to be less GY dependant). Or add more Dark Tutelage, my 1 off is already that impressive :)

[movingtonewao]

I agree that out of all the hate rip is the one that blows hard. the only way we can deal with it is oblivion stone/engineered explosives and you have to jump through hoops to get them, losing out on CA in the meantime.

[cuthbertthecat]

A couple of things I've realized from testing against newer decks over the last several days
1. You definitely want cursed totem maindeck now with deathrite shaman being so popular. I think this makes the Enlightened Tutor builds of lands just better than the Tutorless ones.
2. With RIP being such a beating, I think krosan grip is necessary in the sideboard again. I don't think that something like o-stone, additional explosives, or sylvok replica does the job; you need to resolve your answer to rip.
3. BUG Delver is such an easy matchup compared to RUG delver. No bolts means you get another turn or two to win, which is usually enough. Also, you get to board in bob and thalia because they won't have answers for them postboard, which makes the matchup even easier.

[Anen]

A couple of things I've realized from testing against newer decks over the last several days
1. You definitely want cursed totem maindeck now with deathrite shaman being so popular. I think this makes the Enlightened Tutor builds of lands just better than the Tutorless ones.
2. With RIP being such a beating, I think krosan grip is necessary in the sideboard again. I don't think that something like o-stone, additional explosives, or sylvok replica does the job; you need to resolve your answer to rip.
3. BUG Delver is such an easy matchup compared to RUG delver. No bolts means you get another turn or two to win, which is usually enough. Also, you get to board in bob and thalia because they won't have answers for them postboard, which makes the matchup even easier.

I can't agree more with 3. No bolts means there are no surprise damages. And BUG doesn't play that Un-Mazable Mangoose :)

[movingtonewao]

does anybody else agree with 2?
How many decks run RIP to realistically be facing these often.

[TheRedBaron]

does anybody else agree with 2?
How many decks run RIP to realistically be facing these often.

@movingtonewao
I'm debating K-Grip or Abrupt Decay. K grip doesn't get rid of B Leyline, however. decay gets rid of everything else relevant.

@all
Also, in General, I prefer Sphere of Resistance to Thalia from the board, as I run Etutor Lands.

And... With rise of Shaman and presence of Ooze, Should we consider 1 Cursed Totem MD?

[movingtonewao]

yeah I remember watching some SCG lands deck tech where abrupt decays were used in the sideboard. I remember we dismissed it back then because we were talking about how to combat blood moon. Both abrupt decay and K grip aren't topdeckable answers to blood moon, but decay looks like it has more utility than a grip atm.

EDIT: as for cursed totem MD, I'm all for it. I had it in when maverick was hot, moved it to SB when combo started to come out to play, and now its time to move it back to MD again.

[Anen]

does anybody else agree with 2?
How many decks run RIP to realistically be facing these often.

Blade and Miracle run RiP, as if Jace was not already hard enough to deal with x)

[TheRedBaron]

EDIT: as for cursed totem MD, I'm all for it. I had it in when maverick was hot, moved it to SB when combo started to come out to play, and now its time to move it back to MD again.

Question is... What do I replace? haha... Could Replace Stone and Move to board, but that's a catch all as well.

Also considering -1 Intuition, +1 Etutor.

Just brief on my deck:
36 Lands (normal load out, tabernacle, ports/waste, maze, etc.)
3 Etutor
3 Intuition
4 LftL
4 Exploration
1 Manabond
1 Crucible
4 diamond
1 Stone
1 Top
1 EE
1 Orb
1 Ebridge

Thoughts?

[Phelix]

Question is... What do I replace? haha... Could Replace Stone and Move to board, but that's a catch all as well.

Also considering -1 Intuition, +1 Etutor.

Just brief on my deck:
36 Lands (normal load out, tabernacle, ports/waste, maze, etc.)
3 Etutor
3 Intuition
4 LftL
4 Exploration
1 Manabond
1 Crucible
4 diamond
1 Stone
1 Top
1 EE
1 Orb
1 Ebridge

Thoughts?


Moving zuran orb to the sideboard could be completly viable.

[Phelix]

also:

yes bug is alot easier, its 2-3 or even 4 turns slower (hi maze).

I only play tutor versions now, for the first time ever, and agree that they currently are the better choice.

[OneBigSquirrelGod]

Moving zuran orb to the sideboard could be completly viable.

I disagree. I think Oblivion Stone would be better to cut than Zuran Orb. Without Orb, Burn is impossible to beat G1, and it also makes Zoo a little more rough, and Zoo with come back due to the amount of BUG in the format.

[OneBigSquirrelGod]

If Rest in Peace and BUG continue to put up numbers, I think I am going to try a different strategy with the deck. I feel Dark Tutelage is strictly better than Dark Confidant, since the secret is out. I have gotten Confidant hated more now than ever. I feel Raven's Crime is becoming a lot less important, and agree that Tutors are the answer. I don't think it's worth cutting Zuran Orb. Problem with rest in peace is that it RFG's the EE and stone. I have been putting a lot of thought into Vendilion Clique, and think it may be a great SB card. Has anyone thought/tried this?

Abrupt Decay can kill Cursed Totem, as well as get around CotV @ 2, which makes me think a single chalice could be really helpful G1. I think I am cutting Manabond completely, and Adding a Totem, and either a Chalice or a 3rd E Tutor. I think g1 chalice will put up good results.

[Stoyrm]

If Rest in Peace and BUG continue to put up numbers, I think I am going to try a different strategy with the deck. I feel Dark Tutelage is strictly better than Dark Confidant, since the secret is out. I have gotten Confidant hated more now than ever. I feel Raven's Crime is becoming a lot less important, and agree that Tutors are the answer. I don't think it's worth cutting Zuran Orb. Problem with rest in peace is that it RFG's the EE and stone. I have been putting a lot of thought into Vendilion Clique, and think it may be a great SB card. Has anyone thought/tried this?

Abrupt Decay can kill Cursed Totem, as well as get around CotV @ 2, which makes me think a single chalice could be really helpful G1. I think I am cutting Manabond completely, and Adding a Totem, and either a Chalice or a 3rd E Tutor. I think g1 chalice will put up good results.

I agree with a lot of this. Dark Confidant might not be good enough anymore, due to people keeping in spot removal, and it also dies to Abrupt Decay. The new meta poses a few problems and removes some. First Blood Moon is not a card, so don't worry about it, meaning Abrupt Decay is better than Krosan Grip in most cases, also helps that Omniscience isn't doing to well lately. Problems; Rest in Peace, Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay are cards. Rest in Peace and Deathrite Shaman has to be answered. The answers to Rest in Peace that we usually use are O-Stone, Krosan Grip (Now Abrupt decay) and EE. All our answers except from the Abrupt Decay will get removed and be an annoyance, also our other answers can be countered. Deathrite Shaman can be handled with Chalice (unreliably), Cursed Totem, Pithing Needle etc. The problem with this is that all our answers die to Abrupt Decay. We can play through Deathrite Shaman, but it's not easy, and as a control deck we can't ignore threats that remove our ability to go long.

The question about Zuran Orb is decided whether or not Burn returns to the meta. Bug has a horrible game against it, so it might be due a comeback. I however question the viability of Vendillion Clique in this deck, we have no stack control. Also people will just remove it, just as they remove the Dark Confidant. The only upside would be the karakas. We could just play Thoughtseize and other spells with the same effect if that's what we are looking for. What are we actually looking for in the Vendillion Clique though, an answer to their Enlightened Tutor (for Rest in Peace), Omniscience? Or control in general?

Also; I'm wondering if Jace, the Mind Sculptor could be good in this deck. Again, we have no counterspells, so it could be just terrible, but it's also one of the threats we have a problem dealing with. I get the part with Jace not being a recurrsive threat, but it's one of the best cards in this format, especially for a control deck. This deck might just need a total retool with the new format, but i don't know where to go with it :).

[movingtonewao]

I disagree. I think Oblivion Stone would be better to cut than Zuran Orb. Without Orb, Burn is impossible to beat G1, and it also makes Zoo a little more rough, and Zoo with come back due to the amount of BUG in the format.

I second this. I concede stone is a catch all but usually EE can do the job. Zuran Orb is a very important piece to plug our weaknesses.

as for zoo coming back, I'm not entire sure.

[HammerAndSickled]

Also; I'm wondering if Jace, the Mind Sculptor could be good in this deck. Again, we have no counterspells, so it could be just terrible, but it's also one of the threats we have a problem dealing with. I get the part with Jace not being a recurrsive threat, but it's one of the best cards in this format, especially for a control deck. This deck might just need a total retool with the new format, but i don't know where to go with it :).

I have been testing and building Jace Lands for quite some time. Still getting the cards for this deck but I have 60-70% of it done and my local tournaments allow proxies, so I'm fine. I love Jace as a control card and as a secondary win condition. Nobody ever expects it so they'll waste cards trying to deal with or counter your early threats and then you land a Jace. This deck is capable of turn 2 Jace a non-negligible amount of time, and as Vintage has taught us that is basically a win.

Synergies Jace has with lands, that have brought me to include him:

Maze of Ith is the best Jace protection there is. Shroud creatures in the format: Mongoose and that's it. Everything else short of an Emrakul falls to the mighty maze.
His bounce ability removes problem creatures if you haven't found a maze yet. With our mana denial package he helps get back in the game against decks that land threats before we get our engine online. Sometimes you can bounce a Goyf, Knight, etc. and they never get a chance to replay it through recursive Wastes and Port.
His fateseal can be devastating when you're getting your lock online. This is when you know you've won, when you have their board locked and you fateseal lands to the bottom. He also grows to an ultimate pretty quickly.
Brainstorm is of limited utility in this deck, since we have no countermagic. It does have synergy with E-tutor and Academy Ruins, allowing you access to the card this turn. It helps in digging for silver bullets or an engine piece, dredges Loam more than once a turn if needed, and generally just is awesome. There's a reason it's the best card in Legacy!


He does have his limitations. He costs 4 mana, which is a huge amount. Not that we don't run more than half lands or anything, but it's something to consider. We are the best deck to play around soft countermagic, of course. But 4 mana is pretty late when most of our other answers come online at lower amounts of mana. If we get on the back foot, like against opposing Tempo decks or other decks with Loam, we can have a dead card stranded in hand. UU is also occasionally rough, but I'm running 4 fetch and 3 trop to compensate. With that plus Diamonds and Tar Pit it should be fine.

[Phelix]

I dont believe in cutting stone, since it solves the control problem, and is one of only 2 cards in the maindeck to solve this problem.

In my meta, burn does not exist. And I have never played against it in premier event, ever.

I think dark tutelage could be an option, but i must admit, i use confidant as much for its 2 power, as for its drawing ability.

Im currently running 3 krosan grips in the sideboard. and im down to 36 lands.

[dimignon]

Hi guys....I am from Brazil and I am new here. I play lands about 2 years and I am playing now the bant version...with tutor and intuition in main deck.
I played in sideboard with knight of reliquary in side because like the card and I do not like Bob...
But in the champs I have played the people did not sideout the plowshares....and in a discuss with my friend...I am now playing with geist...and now I can say....WOW...anybody expect the geist in a land deck....and few decks can handle with him....
Anybody have tried geist in sie too?

[Anen]

Since when are we trying to be aggro? Except vs. combo, I'd rather cast a Thrun than a Geist.

[movingtonewao]

oh no i think we're going on the wrong track here guys. rememer we need to stabilize first before thinking about going for the win. If you like to turn creatures sideways or have fast games so you have lots of time between rounds, then maybe this deck is not for you.

[TheRedBaron]

oh no i think we're going on the wrong track here guys. rememer we need to stabilize first before thinking about going for the win. If you like to turn creatures sideways or have fast games so you have lots of time between rounds, then maybe this deck is not for you.

I agree. Creeping Tar-Pit is still the best. 3 Damage a turn is good enough for the deck. Your first 1-3 Turns is deciding what locks to go for and determining what your opponent is trying to do. I will add that to pilot Lands, you need to know Legacy decks really well. Probably better than if you pilot Goblins or Maverick.

That's why I'm having a problem finding a slot for totem. I really hate to drop Stone for Totem and Zuran Orb is pretty good in several matches. I was able to Beat Tendrils game one because of Orb, for example. I went first and sacced 3 lands in response to tendrils and opponent could only muster up a storm count of 12.

[Sughayyer]

@mignon
I understand your situation perfectly :D
however geist has a problem: he is outclassed by most other creatues (he has a frail 2/2 body).
On these times of abrupt decay, cards like pulse, vindicate and o-ring, when present, are sided out against you. So they'll probably have no answer for a jace (protected by manlands, tabernacle, mazes, moat whatever)... And you can win g 2 and 3 from there (g1 will usually be yours anyway)

[dimignon]

I think you have misunderstanding what I want to say...

First I love this deck....I like very much look how many people do not play around him...and when they concede...

But...I do not like Bob...I prefer de bant version....and the hate grave in my meta have increase a lot...in function of the shaman and RiP...

So....I need to find another finisher to de second and maybe de third game...ande the people do not sideout the plowshares...and because of the grave hates I put the geist..

He has hexproof and a angel 4/4...and is brilhant with mazes...

I have adepted the deck for my metagame...geist is not the solution for all the problems...but is a good creature and people do not expect him...

[UnsungHero]

I think you have misunderstanding what I want to say...

First I love this deck....I like very much look how many people do not play around him...and when they concede...

But...I do not like Bob...I prefer de bant version....and the hate grave in my meta have increase a lot...in function of the shaman and RiP...

So....I need to find another finisher to de second and maybe de third game...ande the people do not sideout the plowshares...and because of the grave hates I put the geist..

He has hexproof and a angel 4/4...and is brilhant with mazes...

I have adepted the deck for my metagame...geist is not the solution for all the problems...but is a good creature and people do not expect him...

Why not use something like Sigarda?

[ESG]

He has hexproof and a angel 4/4...and is brilhant with mazes...

I love outside-the-box ideas like this. Do what works for you, then report your results. Those of you who don't want to try it, fine. A very real liability with this deck is its need to consume tons of clock time. If a sideboard strategy could cut that time significantly, then it at least has that going for it.

[cuthbertthecat]

There are worse cards to play than Geist. He is at his best g2 and 3 against miracles since they should have no answers to him if he sticks and he puts games away quickly in a very time-consuming match. He also kills Jace. He might be worth testing.

[Stoyrm]

There are worse cards to play than Geist. He is at his best g2 and 3 against miracles since they should have no answers to him if he sticks and he puts games away quickly in a very time-consuming match. He also kills Jace. He might be worth testing.

I think Geist might be a fine card. As you say, it's a good answer to Jace, of which we have few, and is a threat even under Rest in Peace. Also we have Maze, Karakas etc to protect him from opposing Snapcaster Mages and Vendillion Clique.

[Anen]

I think Geist might be a fine card. As you say, it's a good answer to Jace, of which we have few, and is a threat even under Rest in Peace. Also we have Maze, Karakas etc to protect him from opposing Snapcaster Mages and Vendillion Clique.

New sideboard plan vs. Combo and Control decks ! (with some Volrath's Stronghold MD)

4 Dark Confidant
3 Knight of the Reliquary/Vendilion Clique
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Thrun, the Last Troll

Damn.. Now I want to test that ><

[HammerAndSickled]

The problem is, without a Diamond you need multiple unmolested duals to cast him early enough to matter.

[attemanden]

Hey guys.

I was wondering why Sylvan library > Sensei top? i mean top i more reliable since you can get it back from the yard. it is also faster to play and can make a hand with no green mana more playable.
I think Library is good when you draw an enchantment or artifact and then dredge the other draw, but is there anything else that makes it better than top?

[TheRedBaron]

New sideboard plan vs. Combo and Control decks ! (with some Volrath's Stronghold MD)

4 Dark Confidant
3 Knight of the Reliquary/Vendilion Clique
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Thrun, the Last Troll

Damn.. Now I want to test that ><

Hmmm. I had considered 1 Terravore + a stronghold sideboard at one time. I don't Think its a good idea boarding that many creatures vs. Control, Terminus will now beat you.

If you're that worried about JTMS, why not board Phyrexian Revoker, as it already synergizes with Etutors + Academy ruins... Or even a single Inkwell Leviathan. Also Ethersworn canonist for same reasons as the revoker.

My SB plan is just more redundancy:


4 Dark Confidant
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Sphere of Resistance
2 Ray of Revelation
4 Chalice of the Void



Considering taking out RoR for Abrupt Decay.


Hey guys.

I was wondering why Sylvan library > Sensei top? i mean top i more reliable since you can get it back from the yard. it is also faster to play and can make a hand with no green mana more playable.
I think Library is good when you draw an enchantment or artifact and then dredge the other draw, but is there anything else that makes it better than top?


I love Top in my Etutor build. It also dodges your own EE and Ostone as well.

[attemanden]

how many e-tutors do you play?... i play 3x e-tutor and 3x intuition.

you can tutor Library aswell though :)

[Anen]

Hmmm. I had considered 1 Terravore + a stronghold sideboard at one time. I don't Think its a good idea boarding that many creatures vs. Control, Terminus will now beat you.

If you're that worried about JTMS, why not board Phyrexian Revoker, as it already synergizes with Etutors + Academy ruins... Or even a single Inkwell Leviathan. Also Ethersworn canonist for same reasons as the revoker.


The point is not to slam all your creatures then swing. It is to put one into play, maybe 2.. But I really love that Inkwell :) Recurable with ruins, Shroud, what could I ask for more?.
Moreover, the point is to board thoses creatures g2. If Sword to Plowshares sometimes stays for g2, terminus is always sided out.

So let's do

4 Dark Confidant
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Inkwell Leviathan

Knight doesn't make the cut: weak to grave hate, doesn't protect itself, no evasion and no come into play ability. If someone has more idea, I am all ears :D

[TheRedBaron]

how many e-tutors do you play?... i play 3x e-tutor and 3x intuition.

you can tutor Library aswell though :)

I play 3/3 as well.

Top also allows you to insta-dredge for 0 mana (like, in response to surgical) and you can Top > Loam a fetch > top again and see 6 cards in 1 turn, plus recur via Ruins and no G mana required; Also, you can Etutor something and use top to get it into your hand that turn, if you need a Zuran orb or Exploration quickly... Just so many more tricks than Library.



The point is not to slam all your creatures then swing. It is to put one into play, maybe 2.. But I really love that Inkwell :) Recurable with ruins, Shroud, what could I ask for more?.
Moreover, the point is to board thoses creatures g2. If Sword to Plowshares sometimes stays for g2, terminus is always sided out.

So let's do

4 Dark Confidant
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Inkwell Leviathan

Knight doesn't make the cut: weak to grave hate, doesn't protect itself, no evasion and no come into play ability. If someone has more idea, I am all ears :D


Don't forget, you can board Worldly Tutor be more flexible, just IMO I wouldn't put that many creatures, maybe 1 Thrun, 1 Geist, 4 bob; also Guilded Drake could be useful in some matches.

[attemanden]

many good arguments, especially that it works like a no-cost thicket.

[attemanden]

Lands: 33
1x Bojuka bog
1x Bayou
1x Savannah
1x Creeping tar pit
4x Maze of ith
4x Wasteland
1x Glacial chasm
1x Ghost quarter
2x Tolaria West
4x Rishadan port
1x Misty rainforest
1x Forest
3x Tropical
2x Tranquil thicket
2x Verdant catacomb
1x Celestel collonade
1x Karakas
1x Academy Ruin
1x Tabernacle at pendrell vale


Sorceries: 4
4x life from the loam

instant: 5
2x Intuition
3x enlightened tutor

Artifacts: 14
1x Crucible of worlds
1x Ensnaring bridge
1x Oblivion stone
1x Engineered explosives
4x Mox diamond
1x smokestack
1x cursed totem
1x Zurans orb
1x Sensei diving top
1x Chalice of the void
1x Steel hellkite

enchantments: 4
4x Exploration

Total: 60
Sideboard:
3x Chalice of the Void
1x Trinisphere
4x Dark Confidant
1x Ensnaring bridge
3x Krosans Grip
1x Dueling ground
1x Engineered explosives
1x Abrupt decay ??

My new build, havent testet it yet but bring your oppinions.
1. I will try Cursed totem main do to all the deathrite shamans, ooze and so on.
2. Steel hellkite is also a new input to the deck, and the reason why i will try this one out is that we could use a fast beater sometimes, and since its and artifact we can in principle recycle it unless it gets removed. the ability to destroy permanents also seems so strong, and is another way around RIP/Counterbalance just to mention to of the really annoying ones.
3. sensei top swapped for library since it gives more options and doesnt die to board sweepers.
4. I think we all agree about RIP gives a lot of problems, is the new way to handle this just to bring in more krosan grips and perhaps abrupt decay? seems like the right thing to do?
5. I know it is a lot of artifacts MD but i think we need more threats now a days since the first one droppet to the board easily gets taken cared off and then remove from GY.
6. No more manabond, everytime i see it i rather want a exploration. and with 3 E-tutors you will get and exploration if you need it.

please bring your oppinions on my list aswell as my comments. i need some second hand oppinions.

[attemanden]

NB. i might bring steel hellkite to SB since they often replace creature removel spells for game 2 and 3.

[Anen]

Tabernacle-less Lands got 8th at SCG:LA (and no basic, nor Manabond)
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=51707

1 Cabal Pit, 1 Cursed Totem (with 2 ETutor) and 2 EE MD to deal with Deathrite Shaman.
I don't really know how I feel about Cabal Pit vs. the Shaman. Correct me if I am wrong but isn't threshold that hard to achieve with Loam getting eaten by Shaman and in a deck with mostly permanents? And that is eaten just after the first activation so no hope to recur it, not like artefacts.

[_Fe_]

I was watching the match he did in the top8, he had Tabernacle in the deck.

[lyracian]

Tabernacle-less Lands got 8th at SCG:LA (and no basic, nor Manabond)
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=51707
.
I was watching the match he did in the top8, he had Tabernacle in the deck.
Wether he had Tabernacle or not (and I am sure they will correct the list at some point if he did) it is nice to see the deck place in a field full of Deathrite Shaman and RIP.

[Fizzeler]

He had Tabernacle and his deck was 61 cards not 60

Is there any merit to running Artifact creatures in the main or Jace, TMS? I currently am running a one of Vraska until I get a Smokestack, but maybe a Steel Hellkite, Lodestone Golem, or Jace is just better

[MUCGuy]

Been testing creatures, with volrath's stronghold. The deck benefits from an artifact creature like masticore/batterskull.

Sigarda, is powerful. Off the show and tell vs emrakul. Beats Liliana and Jace.

Masticore, not that many games played but wanted something to help control the field against 2 toughness bodies.

Batterskull, replaced by masticore but basically can make a super creature late game if equip something else. And highly survivable. Good against gobo's if have the time. I'm hoping Masticore will improve the gobo matchup.

Thrun, powerful in general but esp. against Jace.

Geist, really fast, beautiful creature in this deck.

Oracle, has got to be better than sylvan library. Esp. with sensei's divining top in the mix. She gives recurable Exploration, with volrath. Will test Eternal witness tho.

---
Looking for creatures that play well with Glacial Chasm, and Ensnaring Bridge.

Also, I think playing with Urbog, Tomb .. is an error with this deck. Helping the opponent's mana in anyway is something this deck doesn't ever wants to do.

[TraxDaMax]

Been testing creatures, with volrath's stronghold. The deck benefits from an artifact creature like masticore/batterskull.

Sigarda, is powerful. Off the show and tell vs emrakul. Beats Liliana and Jace.

Masticore, not that many games played but wanted something to help control the field against 2 toughness bodies.

Batterskull, replaced by masticore but basically can make a super creature late game if equip something else. And highly survivable. Good against gobo's if have the time. I'm hoping Masticore will improve the gobo matchup.

Thrun, powerful in general but esp. against Jace.

Geist, really fast, beautiful creature in this deck.

Oracle, has got to be better than sylvan library. Esp. with sensei's divining top in the mix. She gives recurable Exploration, with volrath. Will test Eternal witness tho.

---
Looking for creatures that play well with Glacial Chasm, and Ensnaring Bridge.

Also, I think playing with Urbog, Tomb .. is an error with this deck. Helping the opponent's mana in anyway is something this deck doesn't ever wants to do.

Urborg is there to maximize Raven's Crime with Loam. Once you've done that you'll understand it doesn't really matter what color your opponent has.

[MUCGuy]

I make the statement about Urborg, even when coupled with Raven's Crime. RC just feels under powered in my testing when many decks can lay their hands out in a couple turns.

I've been playing the shit out of 43 Lands on cockatrice. Raven's Crime can be good but in general there a lot of things that are good in Lands, that don't require one to give the opponent mana help. Esp. considering one of the great strengths of this deck is it's ability to attack the opponents mana.

---

Name's Vice DaVinvi on cockatrice.

[Anen]

Been testing creatures, with volrath's stronghold. The deck benefits from an artifact creature like masticore/batterskull.

Sigarda, is powerful. Off the show and tell vs emrakul. Beats Liliana and Jace.

Masticore, not that many games played but wanted something to help control the field against 2 toughness bodies.

Batterskull, replaced by masticore but basically can make a super creature late game if equip something else. And highly survivable. Good against gobo's if have the time. I'm hoping Masticore will improve the gobo matchup.

Thrun, powerful in general but esp. against Jace.

Geist, really fast, beautiful creature in this deck.

Oracle, has got to be better than sylvan library. Esp. with sensei's divining top in the mix. She gives recurable Exploration, with volrath. Will test Eternal witness tho.

---
Looking for creatures that play well with Glacial Chasm, and Ensnaring Bridge.


The thing with MD creatures is that I want ALL of them Swords to Plowshares proof in order to safely bring in Dark Confidant G2. And nor Oracle, nor Masticore, nor Batterskull (to a certain extent) fit this role. If I had to put MD artefact one, I'll go with Inkwell Leviathan and maybe Sphinx of the Steel Wind, but both are high cmc..

Sigarda just for Emmy, well.. We already have Ensnaring bridge and Karakas. Karakas vs. Show and Tell is a must. Vs. Sneack attack, I usually Maze the Emrakul, then sacrifice 6 and starts again from here, meaning my opponent will need to find 2 more creatures to go. Omnishow is way more scarier from my point of view, hence Clique instead of Sigarda. A well time Clique can be devastating.

[ESG]

@Anen: If you want your creatures to be Plow-proof, don't play Sphinx. It doesn't have protection from white.

[Anen]

@Anen: If you want your creatures to be Plow-proof, don't play Sphinx. It doesn't have protection from white.

Really? Thank you for pointing it out.. Sphinx may not have protection from Swords to Plowshares but he has protection from most artefact removal (i.e. all non white but guess what, we have Inkwell Leviathan for white opponents), not like Batterskull or Masticore..

[MUCGuy]

Sigarda is not 'just for emmy' she's a 5/5 flier for five in the deck's main colors. She's can't be killed except by big sweepers, which we fight with mana denial. Pounds Jace and Liliana, which are big problems for the deck.

Now about the vulnerability to swords on Masticore and Oracle. Both of those creatures have the ability to affect board state before a swords can exile them. Masticore can shoot some dudes before death, and Oracle can put lands into play without passing priority. And if you run a Chalice of the Void main, you can stick them forever against a Swords plan.

Also, I retract my previous statement about Raven's Crime and Urbog. When trying to cast spells (creatures) discard is more relevant. Now testing RC with creatures.

[cuthbertthecat]

For those talking about playing large, awkward animals, just play mindslaver. For a few more mana you just win the game.

[MUCGuy]

Are you implying Mindslaver is the best answer to Liliana, Jace, Emrakul. Cuthbertthecat? I havn't tested it.

Requiring 13 mana for the lock... seems like a lot.

[Anen]

For those talking about playing large, awkward animals, just play mindslaver. For a few more mana you just win the game.

But not through grave hate.

[cuthbertthecat]

Are you implying Mindslaver is the best answer to Liliana, Jace, Emrakul. Cuthbertthecat? I havn't tested it.

Requiring 13 mana for the lock... seems like a lot.

No, tar pit is the best answer to jace and liliana with bridge being best for emrakul, but if you want a large, unnecessary wincon, I think slaver is the best because it just wins. You don't even need to lock with it most of the time, using it with tabernacle in play against creature decks is usually good enough.


But not through grave hate.

It seems much more likely that you'll dredge up your inkwell or intuition for it rather than holding an enlightened tutor until turn 5 to get it.

[Jay_Gatz]

Mindslaver doesn't require a whole lock to win the game. Often times just one or two activations cripple your opponent enough that the game just ends on its own.

[OneBigSquirrelGod]

If you can show a judge 3 repetitive stolen turns, the judge will award you the game (at least what a head judge told me a while ago.).

[Jay_Gatz]

But you don't even have to be able to do that. Just slaving your opponent for one turn can easily win many games.

[psilance]

hihi, long time reader, just recently joined forums.

I have been playing a lot recently with Lands. I believe Top is just better than sylvan Library as it stands right now, with so many decks running Abrupt Decay. Anyone else have thoughts on this? I also run 3x Enlightened Tutor.

Also I plan on playing Lands at GP Denver. who else is with me? =]

[Flixel]

I've seen some builds recently online with Thalias and with this inclusion I rethought of the new card spoiled thus far trying to find something to improve my own Lands deck. I thought of using Rubblehulk for its bloodrush abiliyy in an Intuition build with Volrath's Stronghold and giving our manlands a quick kill scenario or at least killing of Jace with a lot of counters in one go. I was wondering if any one had any thought on this.

[jhport12]

How do people feel about Abrupt Decay? For me, it's hurt the viability of the Bob sideboard. The past couple of weeks, I haven't gotten a Bob to stay on the board for even one draw.

Because most of us plan to win with man-lands anyway, not as many people are sideboarding out their removal, especially now that a decent percentage of removal out there is Abrupt Decay, which can also hit a key artifact or Exploration/Manabond.

I'm also curious what people think of Abrupt Decay as a sideboard option for Lands. Uncounterable is nice, but it's really the split second of Krosan Grip that makes it crucial against graveyard removal, since they either have to use their Relic/Crypt immediately or risk losing it. Of course, Abrupt Decay is more versatile because it can hit troublesome creatures like Deathrite Shaman and Bob. I'm on the fence right now, in part because people rarely pass priority once they play their artifact graveyard hate (making Krosan Grip less impactful).

[cuthbertthecat]

Sideboard Geist of Saint Traft or some other hexproof idiot might be the best solution. It's pretty decent against the decay decks and you can always protect it with maze if they get lethal blockers for it.

[GoldenCid]

Tabernacle-less Lands got 8th at SCG:LA (and no basic, nor Manabond)
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=51707

1 Cabal Pit, 1 Cursed Totem (with 2 ETutor) and 2 EE MD to deal with Deathrite Shaman.
I don't really know how I feel about Cabal Pit vs. the Shaman. Correct me if I am wrong but isn't threshold that hard to achieve with Loam getting eaten by Shaman and in a deck with mostly permanents? And that is eaten just after the first activation so no hope to recur it, not like artefacts.

This list looks pretty solid! I question i have about it is why he didnt run Raven's Crime to deal with combo. Is CotV clearly better that crime? I think that crime is a great alternative to deal wit multiple MU.

GC.

[TheRedBaron]

This list looks pretty solid! I question i have about it is why he didnt run Raven's Crime to deal with combo. Is CotV clearly better that crime? I think that crime is a great alternative to deal wit multiple MU.

GC.

Raven's crime is bad vs. DRS. I've beat Storm decks (non High Tide) with Zuran Orb and Tabernacle before, Game 1

CotV, especially with Etutors are a valid turn 1-2 play.

Also, he might just haven't played vs. Combo the whole time. Let's not jump the gun in cabal pit vs. Tabernacle, maybe he couldn't acquire a tabernacle in time, etc.

[Countertoplol]

Raven's crime is bad vs. DRS. I've beat Storm decks (non High Tide) with Zuran Orb and Tabernacle before, Game 1

CotV, especially with Etutors are a valid turn 1-2 play.

Also, he might just haven't played vs. Combo the whole time. Let's not jump the gun in cabal pit vs. Tabernacle, maybe he couldn't acquire a tabernacle in time, etc.

He had a tabernacle in the deck, he played it on camera. They just forgot to include it in the list.

[Anen]

Because most of us plan to win with man-lands anyway, not as many people are sideboarding out their removal, especially now that a decent percentage of removal out there is Abrupt Decay, which can also hit a key artifact or Exploration/Manabond.

It is impossible to lose a man-land on a Sword to Plowshares. If you are, you are doing it wrong.
Also Abrupt Decay only hits non land.

[GoldenCid]

Raven's crime is bad vs. DRS. I've beat Storm decks (non High Tide) with Zuran Orb and Tabernacle before, Game 1

CotV, especially with Etutors are a valid turn 1-2 play.

Also, he might just haven't played vs. Combo the whole time. Let's not jump the gun in cabal pit vs. Tabernacle, maybe he couldn't acquire a tabernacle in time, etc.

Sorry I do not know what rds is.
Yeah I suggested crime thinking on tide match up which can bound all you artifact hate.
And off course he probably didnt face lots of combo deck if he did lands will be the new dbt of the format!!


GC

[movingtonewao]

DRS = death rite shaman

and he's the main reason my lands deck is eating dust right now...a T1 deathrite is just too brutal against us and since they seem to be the flavour of the month (or a few months to come), its going to hurt a lands player bad.

Anyway was scrolling through the spoiler list and found thespian stage. I don't know if it could be an inclusion in our list. Probably not, but just want to throw it out there.

[jhport12]

It is impossible to lose a man-land on a Sword to Plowshares. If you are, you are doing it wrong.
Also Abrupt Decay only hits non land.

My post was primarily about Abrupt Decay and its effect on a Dark Confidant sideboard. People don't side out their Abrupt Decays because they kill our Ensnaring Bridges, Crucibles, Explorations, etc. and they are more than happy to use them on any creatures we've side-boarded in.

With respect to man-lands and Swords, the simple reality is that you don't always have an untapped Wasteland or Zuran Orb in play to protect them. Furthermore, you don't always have the luxury of letting your opponent's Jace keep adding counters. I frequently encounter games where I have to send a Creeping Tar-Pit on the attack with no protection.

Just because our deck is "supposed to" always be able to protect its man-lands, doesn't mean it always can.

[Philipp2293]

Honestly, if people just run DRS and neglect real hatecards in their SB and think they can get away with it I'm perfectly fine with that. Between Explosives, Totem, enough ways to tutor for them, and also G2/3 Decay I haven't had too much trouble with DRS.

[movingtonewao]

If you look at sideboards, people do actually pack additional graveyard hate. Only noob players think DRS alone is sufficient graveyard hate. Deathrite Shaman just happens to be maindeck card thats good in general, even if not used against graveyard decks.

So game 1 you don't actually have an auto-win. Yes we have cursed totems, engineered explosives (via tutor) and all that, but remember while you're trying to find an answer for DRS he is building his board position/screwing your hand/and doing whatever he needs to do to win.

and it gets worse in game 2 and 3 when their sideboard comes in. Seriously I'm not joking, DRS is a card that made my friend quit aggro loam altogether.

[GoldenCid]

If you look at sideboards, people do actually pack additional graveyard hate. Only noob players think DRS alone is sufficient graveyard hate. Deathrite Shaman just happens to be maindeck card thats good in general, even if not used against graveyard decks.

So game 1 you don't actually have an auto-win. Yes we have cursed totems, engineered explosives (via tutor) and all that, but remember while you're trying to find an answer for DRS he is building his board position/screwing your hand/and doing whatever he needs to do to win.

and it gets worse in game 2 and 3 when their sideboard comes in. Seriously I'm not joking, DRS is a card that made my friend quit aggro loam altogether.
This is, indeed, true. Very true. While you put together all you need for totem or explosives you opo will take advantage. We need an opening totem or explosives to stop them consistently.
On grave hate I always run it even addittional cards if run hate card md already. Bad times for lands??


GC.

[movingtonewao]

Bad times for lands


GC.

this is what i've been trying to explain. at least somebody understood :)

EDIT: at least until 1) DRS craze dies down or 2) we get some crazy awesome answer to DRS in dragons maze that blows my mind (read, it would take something really spectacular), like uh a land that takes control of target creature with power 1 or less. Idk. Shrug.

[Lt. Quattro]

I'm thinking of building this deck, but before I jump in the deep end of the pool is there an optimal list for the deck?

[movingtonewao]

I'm thinking of building this deck, but before I jump in the deep end of the pool is there an optimal list for the deck?

Greetings. There is no optimal list there are enlightened tutor/intuition/ravens crime builds.

Do you have the staples already? It's not a cheap deck to buy into. Also, the current meta sucks for us.

[KntrellCL]

Ive been playing a BUGr version of Lands with very good results against DRS. I dropped W because every DRS shaman deck, use abrupt decay. They have answer to Cursed Totem and lets face it.... it is a very slow answer. My version plays with Punishing Fire main. This new gadget gave me a better mana base (from 11 to 14) with Groves of the Burnwillows. You can get back your Pfires for any dredge you may have did. Also, it takes down Jace, DRS, a bad used Scavenging Ooze, etc.

Spells [24]

Engine [10]

4 Life from the Loam
4 Exploration
2 Manabond

Assist [7]

3 Intuition
4 Punishing Fire

Artifacts [7]

1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Zuran Orb
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Mox Diamond

Lands [37]

Control Lands [12]

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Maze of Ith
1 Ghost Quarter

Man Lands [1]

1 Creeping Tar Pit

Mana Source [14]

3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
2 Taiga
1 Forest
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs

Assist Lands [7]

3 Tranquil Thicket
3 Tolaria West
1 Glacial Chasm

Legendary Lands [3]

1 Karakas
1 Academy Ruins
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale


Last tourney I went was a 4-Swiss Round... 3 of 4 matches I saw DRS. First game, this guy started playing like a junk deck.... deathrite shaman turn 1, bayou, horizon canopy, green sun zenith, etc! but it was an Elves deck. I burned everything down with Pfire. Take G1, lost G2 with a pendelhaven countering my Fires and no wastelands for me. It ended up on a draw.

Second Game... a real junk, i started with land, diamond, double manabond... discarding LFTL and PFire... GG. Second game, I got my LFTL extirpated... but my SB Crucible of Worlds took him down with explorations and ghost quarter.

Third game... was pretty long... end up 1-0 with a last turn strike. It was another DRS deck with relic of progenitus main and he fetched only for basic lands.... I managed to take his deathrite shaman down... and a EE for 1... when he took my GY away... i got back the EE to the top of my deck. Then I started to beat him down with Creeping tar Pit tapping his W sources.

Last game... it was a mono R burn deck... with a turn 3 Sulfuric vortex... took it down with EE... turn 4 another vortex.... GG... i managed to get explorations, zuran orb, glacial chasm, but it was too late. Second game, I started with a turn 2 intuition for zuran orb, glacial and trinisphere.... he gave me the 3phere and exile the other 2 cards with faerie macabre. AGAIN a turn 3 vortex... took it AGAIN with EE... turn 4 another vortex... I went down to 4 lives.... put a chalice on 1.... chalice on 2... chalice on 3.... trinisphere.... and I got fireblast on my face.... UNBELIEVABLE!



Well... I ended up 4th place sadly, but very happy because DRS isn't an issue for me anymore, neither an early dark confidant with all the advantage it generates. I really hope you can give it a shot to punishing fire...

[Stoyrm]

Hmm, i like the thought of Punishing Fire in this metagame. I believe it was faulty to bring it up earlier when Goblins was the targeted enemy of it, but Deathrite Shaman is a completely different thing. Also, this is pretty okay as a finisher against most decks!

[bartmanqc]

Ive been playing a BUGr version of Lands with very good results against DRS. I dropped W because every DRS shaman deck, use abrupt decay. They have answer to Cursed Totem and lets face it.... it is a very slow answer. My version plays with Punishing Fire main. This new gadget gave me a better mana base (from 11 to 14) with Groves of the Burnwillows. You can get back your Pfires for any dredge you may have did. Also, it takes down Jace, DRS, a bad used Scavenging Ooze, etc.

Spells [24]

Engine [10]

4 Life from the Loam
4 Exploration
2 Manabond

Assist [7]

3 Intuition
4 Punishing Fire

Artifacts [7]

1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Zuran Orb
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Mox Diamond

Lands [37]

Control Lands [12]

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Maze of Ith
1 Ghost Quarter

Man Lands [1]

1 Creeping Tar Pit

Mana Source [14]

3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
2 Taiga
1 Forest
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs

Assist Lands [7]

3 Tranquil Thicket
3 Tolaria West
1 Glacial Chasm

Legendary Lands [3]

1 Karakas
1 Academy Ruins
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale


Last tourney I went was a 4-Swiss Round... 3 of 4 matches I saw DRS. First game, this guy started playing like a junk deck.... deathrite shaman turn 1, bayou, horizon canopy, green sun zenith, etc! but it was an Elves deck. I burned everything down with Pfire. Take G1, lost G2 with a pendelhaven countering my Fires and no wastelands for me. It ended up on a draw.

Second Game... a real junk, i started with land, diamond, double manabond... discarding LFTL and PFire... GG. Second game, I got my LFTL extirpated... but my SB Crucible of Worlds took him down with explorations and ghost quarter.

Third game... was pretty long... end up 1-0 with a last turn strike. It was another DRS deck with relic of progenitus main and he fetched only for basic lands.... I managed to take his deathrite shaman down... and a EE for 1... when he took my GY away... i got back the EE to the top of my deck. Then I started to beat him down with Creeping tar Pit tapping his W sources.

Last game... it was a mono R burn deck... with a turn 3 Sulfuric vortex... took it down with EE... turn 4 another vortex.... GG... i managed to get explorations, zuran orb, glacial chasm, but it was too late. Second game, I started with a turn 2 intuition for zuran orb, glacial and trinisphere.... he gave me the 3phere and exile the other 2 cards with faerie macabre. AGAIN a turn 3 vortex... took it AGAIN with EE... turn 4 another vortex... I went down to 4 lives.... put a chalice on 1.... chalice on 2... chalice on 3.... trinisphere.... and I got fireblast on my face.... UNBELIEVABLE!



Well... I ended up 4th place sadly, but very happy because DRS isn't an issue for me anymore, neither an early dark confidant with all the advantage it generates. I really hope you can give it a shot to punishing fire...


I wanted to try grove/punishing fire for a little while. What does your sideboard looks like ?

[KntrellCL]

My SB changes between tournaments... but once I tried a really weird SB and it works PREEEETTY well.

4 Dark Confidant
1 Tormod's Crypt
4 Spell Pierce
3 REB
2 Trinisphere
1 Crucible of Worlds

3phere+counters was BRUTAL against combo... I lost every G1 against combo and won the next 2 games with this sideboard. Crucible of Worlds on SB acts like my 5th Loam when it goes extracted. I played against a Sligh on that tournament and I denied 2 price of progress and 1 sulfuric vortex.... pretty good for me. Against Omnitell, 3phere just shut him down... with ports and wastelands.... if he ever played a spell, i countered.


Now, since BUG is the new meta... I changed my SB to something more traditional.

4 Dark Confidant
2 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge*
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Crucible of Worlds

* Could be replace for the 2nd EE

[movingtonewao]

spell pierce in the first sideboard is pretty weird. we don't actually have that many blue sources to support 4 spell pierce i think?

as for BUG being new meta, you'll definitely need more ways to deal with deathrite shaman. Right now we have Cursed Totem and Pithing Needle. They die to Abrupt Decays though.

[Stoyrm]

With Maverick having such a small role in today's metagame, is it time to change out the Totem with Pithing Needle? Or is elves to much of a player?

[KntrellCL]

spell pierce in the first sideboard is pretty weird. we don't actually have that many blue sources to support 4 spell pierce i think?

as for BUG being new meta, you'll definitely need more ways to deal with deathrite shaman. Right now we have Cursed Totem and Pithing Needle. They die to Abrupt Decays though.

About spell pierce, we play around 10+ U sources (4 fetchs, 3 dual lands, 4 mox diamonds, 3 tolaria west, 1 creeping tar pit). I guess you play 3 intuition MD...so you dont have enough U sources to cast it?

7 Counters+2 Trinisphere against combo is just brutal. Spell Pierce is almost a definitive counter with Rishadan Ports and 3phere.

I wouldnt waste 4 slots on my SB to put 4 Pithing Needles, which can get destroyed pretty easily because we dont have many targets to abrupt decay. Lands was CREATED to win aggro or control matches... I took 4 spaces on my MD to beat my main problem, DRS! to keep my win rate against aggro or control MUs. Almost my entire SB is dedicated to COMBO... G1 is almost auto-loss, so I tried to get better chances in G2/G3, but giving 4+ SB Slots for something you can deal on MD, only makes your G1 worst against those decks, and very weak G2/G3 against combo.

[movingtonewao]

Fair enough, how has spell pierce performed for you? Did you see it significantly increase your win rate versus combo in G2 and 3? Do you have any playtesting results/findings to back this up? I would love to hear more.

[KntrellCL]

I tried Spell Pierce and REB on a big tournament, which was full RIP and Omnitells. Every combo match is complicated, so I start wondering... is chalice of the void enough? against show and tell or omnitell, RIP, the answer is NO. We have a heavy SNT Metagame here, but almost no Storm decks.

Trinisphere helps to gain time against these deck and you draw some cards before they got and answer, so backing it up with counters was just brutal. I dont have MD problemas against aggro decks, control decks, DRS decks, etc... so I dedicated my entire SB against combo.

-Chalice against SNT is almost irrelevant, just 1 show and tell and the game is over....

-I thought Ravens Crime was the answer, but it is TOO slow and a 2 card combo is pretty easy to hide away with brainstorms or just discard other useless cards like counters against Lands.

- Against combo... 3phere+port is BIG, 3phere+ports+counters... lock....

-Thalia, Guardian of Thraben is a really really good card, and I miss it A LOT but droping W was a good call for me, but I cant tell you that I'd play her. 3-of, +3 beater post sideboard, just excelent.


Another card I thought it was a good idea was KOTR... because post sideboard.... LFTL usually gets exiled.... so Bob would be my CA and KOTR would search for my Silver Bullets, but this was a catastrophic idea. KOTR is very susceptible to GY hate, so I took her out.


Now that my meta is infest of BUG... and I havent see much more Combo decks, I went back to Chalice of the void and trying to earn time on G2 and win just 1-0. Resolving every card individually, searching twice on my deck so Im not missing something, etc. Also, I resolve EVERY punishing fire individually and every life I give with Grove of the Burnwillows. Probably, this is just nonsense for you, but is just an edge we can manage to our goal.

In fact, on that tournament... I played against a Stoneblade deck. He had EVERY land on his deck on play... Im tapping his mishra's factory with ports, killed his jace with fire and maze to his batterskull.... then, with P.Fire.... he was writing down every point + and - haha just a few turns later he scoop and was pretty upset for every time I make him taking life down and up. This is just a way to make them go outside their comfortable zone.

[Phelix]

if you have a strong SNT metagame (and not the omni variant) id suggest two ensnaring bridge in the sideboard.

or you can split bridge and gilded drake, like i did here: http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/34683

if its the omni variant, id suggest 3, not 2 trinisphere. this lets you intuition in response to snt and screw them over.


also i prefer to have the crucible maindeck - it often saves you 2-4 or even 6 mana a turn, as well as doing what you said, in saving you whe loam gets extracted g2 and 3.

[movingtonewao]

ever thought of flusterstorm over spell pierce? I was thinking flusterstorm was more versatile. Another card I used to have in this slot was mindbreak trap, but it's cold against S&T variants.

[Parcher]

I went back to Chalice of the void and trying to earn time on G2 and win just 1-0. Resolving every card individually, searching twice on my deck so Im not missing something, etc. Also, I resolve EVERY punishing fire individually and every life I give with Grove of the Burnwillows. Probably, this is just nonsense for you, but is just an edge we can manage to our goal.

In fact, on that tournament... I played against a Stoneblade deck. He had EVERY land on his deck on play... Im tapping his mishra's factory with ports, killed his jace with fire and maze to his batterskull.... then, with P.Fire.... he was writing down every point + and - haha just a few turns later he scoop and was pretty upset for every time I make him taking life down and up. This is just a way to make them go outside their comfortable zone.

You do realize that this works both ways? That one of the main reasons that Lands doesn't consistantly do well in large tournament settings, is that if the opponent wins game one, it is insanely easy for them to at the absolute worst, force a draw? If they force you to to resolve everything individually starting in the first game, and don't establish a precedent for shortcuts, which any decent player will do once they realize what they are playing against, then you will be forced to do so in all the following games. So if they win game one, again, against a decent player who knows the matchup, it will be no problem for them to burn the clock enough to at least force the draw. They can sometimes even get out of a game one loss if they feel that they have enough speed to win game two, by forcing you through the motions, and conceding the second the realize they are unlikely to win that first game. Now if they do win game two, you will have zero time to win game three.

[KntrellCL]

You do realize that this works both ways? That one of the main reasons that Lands doesn't consistantly do well in large tournament settings, is that if the opponent wins game one, it is insanely easy for them to at the absolute worst, force a draw? If they force you to to resolve everything individually starting in the first game, and don't establish a precedent for shortcuts, which any decent player will do once they realize what they are playing against, then you will be forced to do so in all the following games. So if they win game one, again, against a decent player who knows the matchup, it will be no problem for them to burn the clock enough to at least force the draw. They can sometimes even get out of a game one loss if they feel that they have enough speed to win game two, by forcing you through the motions, and conceding the second the realize they are unlikely to win that first game. Now if they do win game two, you will have zero time to win game three.

I know it works both way, obviously, but odds are on our favor on G1 most of the time, few decks has response on the first game against GY and I think we have good MU against a lot of aggro/control base decks. As you said, any good player knows when to concede if they feel they can win G2 and G3 within time and G1 is unwinnable, that works both ways too. If I feel G1 is lost, I will concede too. It's a thin line between time you burned and if you are not sure you have the game won. I think Lands is a deck with long therm decisions, a decision I take on turn 3 or 4 would affect the board probably a few turns later.

At least on my deck list, I feel my deck doesnt get stronger on G2/G3... because I have to take too many good cards and change my strategy. Taking out almost every match (Intuition, manabond, etc) to put Dark Confidant, Chalice of the Void, etc... isnt a proactive strategy, i think it is more like a reactive strategy (I put chalice to protect Bob from removals, to protect LFTL from extraction if it didn't hit yet), but our oponents MU odds just got better on G2/G3... now they have GY Hate, took out every single dead card from G1, etc. So, in my personal opinion... I think if I lost G1 and I didnt concede on time, it's better to draw than lost that game. If they concede me on G1 I would be just happy, I won but I never use shortcuts because I have no hurry to win... I would play another deck if Im hurry to win... my chances are biggest on the 1-0 than 2-0.

Now, if you asked me for my personal opinion why LANDS doesnt consistantly do well on tournaments.... We need to take many factors on consideration, first of all... it is a very expensive deck with very expensive SPECIFIC cards... I only see Tabernacle, exploration, mox diamond etc in Lands deck or very marginal ocassions... so spending that kind of money is just for people who really loves Life from the Loam like me and everyone else on this section. Taking this consideration, how many people can or want to build a Lands deck.... 1 of XXXX (put any number you think is apropiated)...We have our players representing our deck on tournaments, how many of them are REALLY good at this deck? How many of these players made a mistake on a critical decision (which could be not at a critical turn... it could be from turn 1 to last turn)? I think the most decision we have to make, more chances we have to lose. In aggro, you take X's decisions between turn 1 and turn 5 (critical turns) if you do good calls, you should win (just in theory) think now on a deck which wins in late turns, which does NOTHING while is doing everything. Struggling in a race to get resources before oponent (he is on the same race because we are deniel him his own resources too). Early decisions like "should I build up my mana base or droping mazes and save lives?" or took down his manabase (almost always) or his creatures (on my case with my PFires engine) are critical decisions too... I only have one land drop for turn (if there is no exploration) so take the biggest EV from every card. When I started playing this deck, i lost a lot of tournaments and casual matches.... but EVERY single time I lost, I realize it was my mistake... and sometimes there are some mistakes nobody notices but they create a snowball effect. Is just my opinion :)

Im from a very, very far away country :tongue: so I can only read the reports from a very few good Lands players and see matches sometimes if Im lucky... In theory, if you have good chances to win aggro/control decks (2/3 of archetypes) Lands should do WELL on large tournaments.... Here I usually play 4 swiss rounds... if I have just 1 combo MU, is a 25% of my oponents! :cry:





ever thought of flusterstorm over spell pierce? I was thinking flusterstorm was more versatile. Another card I used to have in this slot was mindbreak trap, but it's cold against S&T variants.


Yes, I thought of flusterstorm and it is a very good card, but to be honest... I think is too expensive to be just a SB card for me (here cost around 18USD) and usually with trinisphere and rishadan port, they will play max 1 spell + my flusterstorm he would need to pay 2 mana (same as Spell Pierce).





if you have a strong SNT metagame (and not the omni variant) id suggest two ensnaring bridge in the sideboard.

or you can split bridge and gilded drake, like i did here: http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/34683

if its the omni variant, id suggest 3, not 2 trinisphere. this lets you intuition in response to snt and screw them over.


also i prefer to have the crucible maindeck - it often saves you 2-4 or even 6 mana a turn, as well as doing what you said, in saving you whe loam gets extracted g2 and 3.



My bad, most of the SNT players plays Omni variant. I know Ensnaring Bridge is the biggest card against SNT Sneak version and 3 Trinisphere seems good too in a Omni heavy meta, fair enough for me.

I read your perfomance on that tournament (I was building up my Lands deck and doing some research) and your deck list was my first version of Lands, congratulations for that top16! I think this is one of the biggest perfomance in a long time for Lands!

But based on my experience... Crucible of Worlds is a neat card and deserve to be between my 75 cards but not MD by now. I think it has biggest potential on G2/G3. I try to used every slot on my list to max out... I play 61 cards (-7 opening hand) 54/3 (around 18- dredges) without considering every ocasionally time I recur an artifact to the top of my deck and dredge it away again to protect potential cards I think they might be coming (very marginal ocasions, but not improbable), so I try to maximize every loam I do and win between these "18 dredges"... making my Crucible of Worlds a WIN+, so if I can acomplish the same task but making 1 slot free... I would take that and put it on my SB which protect me from LFTL hate. :smile:


PS: I dont mean to sounds unrespectful with these quotes, Im a US Citizen living on South America since i was 5 forgetting my native lenguage (english) so Im sorry if everything I have wrote until now sounds weird. Probably the way we communicate here is completely different also.

[Stoyrm]

Played 10 Games against BUG today. Preboard it did not seem very favourable with my current figuration. I felt i could always win the games if my opponent was a bit unlucky, but i always felt like i was backpeddaling. Will have to do more testing with 2x Engineered Explosives and 1 Pithing Needle main. Also gonna have to do some testing with RUGb Lands when i get my Groves. I think this is a good way to go these days, hopefully i'm correct.

[Phelix]

I think grove is right for the meta now, if you insist on playing lands.

im toying w. a burning wish/(scapeshift) variant now. and its not good :P

[GoldenCid]

I would play another deck if Im hurry to win... my chances are biggest on the 1-0 than 2-0.

Well said! I'm a player that is not almost affected by playing long rounds and lands grinds the oponent patience but not the mine. If you are not hurried to win just play lands.


Now, if you asked me for my personal opinion why LANDS doesnt consistantly do well on tournaments.... We need to take many factors on consideration, first of all... it is a very expensive deck with very expensive SPECIFIC cards... I only see Tabernacle, exploration, mox diamond etc in Lands deck or very marginal ocassions... so spending that kind of money is just for people who really loves Life from the Loam like me and everyone else on this section. Taking this consideration, how many people can or want to build a Lands deck.... 1 of XXXX (put any number you think is apropiated)...We have our players representing our deck on tournaments, how many of them are REALLY good at this deck? How many of these players made a mistake on a critical decision (which could be not at a critical turn... it could be from turn 1 to last turn)? I think the most decision we have to make, more chances we have to lose. In aggro, you take X's decisions between turn 1 and turn 5 (critical turns) if you do good calls, you should win (just in theory) think now on a deck which wins in late turns, which does NOTHING while is doing everything. Struggling in a race to get resources before oponent (he is on the same race because we are deniel him his own resources too). Early decisions like "should I build up my mana base or droping mazes and save lives?" or took down his manabase (almost always) or his creatures (on my case with my PFires engine) are critical decisions too... I only have one land drop for turn (if there is no exploration) so take the biggest EV from every card. When I started playing this deck, i lost a lot of tournaments and casual matches.... but EVERY single time I lost, I realize it was my mistake... and sometimes there are some mistakes nobody notices but they create a snowball effect. Is just my opinion :)
This is probably truth. Lands is an expensive deck which has a bad MU against combo. Tabernable, mazes, wastelands + ports and the colored mana base makes it the expensiviest deck in the format. This will keep lands far from DTB list. So, dont expect it to do so well in argentine where big tournaments get infested of combo decks and the card values is multiplied by 5 or 6 than is your country. But besides it, what Ktrell says is right. This deck deserves a very wise pilot and right the decisions most time specialy, in my experience, when you face counter decks. So most players will not choose lands for big tournaments.


Im from a very, very far away country :tongue: so I can only read the reports from a very few good Lands players and see matches sometimes if Im lucky... In theory, if you have good chances to win aggro/control decks (2/3 of archetypes) Lands should do WELL on large tournaments.... Here I usually play 4 swiss rounds... if I have just 1 combo MU, is a 25% of my oponents! :cry:.

Here happens the same most time!







Yes, I thought of flusterstorm and it is a very good card, but to be honest... I think is too expensive to be just a SB card for me (here cost around 18USD) and usually with trinisphere and rishadan port, they will play max 1 spell + my flusterstorm he would need to pay 2 mana (same as Spell Pierce).




PS: I dont mean to sounds unrespectful with these quotes, Im a US Citizen living on South America since i was 5 forgetting my native lenguage (english) so Im sorry if everything I have wrote until now sounds weird. Probably the way we communicate here is completely different also.

Where exactly, argentine, brazil, chile?

GC.

[KntrellCL]

Well said! I'm a player that is not almost affected by playing long rounds and lands grinds the oponent patience but not the mine. If you are not hurried to win just play lands.


This is probably truth. Lands is an expensive deck which has a bad MU against combo. Tabernable, mazes, wastelands + ports and the colored mana base makes it the expensiviest deck in the format. This will keep lands far from DTB list. So, dont expect it to do so well in argentine where big tournaments get infested of combo decks and the card values is multiplied by 5 or 6 than is your country. But besides it, what Ktrell says is right. This deck deserves a very wise pilot and right the decisions most time specialy, in my experience, when you face counter decks. So most players will not choose lands for big tournaments.



Here happens the same most time!







Yes, I thought of flusterstorm and it is a very good card, but to be honest... I think is too expensive to be just a SB card for me (here cost around 18USD) and usually with trinisphere and rishadan port, they will play max 1 spell + my flusterstorm he would need to pay 2 mana (same as Spell Pierce).





Where exactly, argentine, brazil, chile?

GC.




Im from Chile, and big tournaments here gets infected with combo decks too, especially with Omni variants... so I dedicate my entire SB against combo (at leaste 14/15 cards). Some combos are pretty easy to win like Reanimator, Infect... but matches like Omnitell, RIP or High Tide are tough. Are you still playing Lands? which SB are you playing?

[GoldenCid]

Im from Chile, and big tournaments here gets infected with combo decks too, especially with Omni variants... so I dedicate my entire SB against combo (at leaste 14/15 cards). Some combos are pretty easy to win like Reanimator, Infect... but matches like Omnitell, RIP or High Tide are tough. Are you still playing Lands? which SB are you playing?

SnT decks are common here and yes i'm still testing lands...my side looks like this:

SB: 1 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 [MI] Cursed Totem
SB: 2 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 4 [RAV] Dark Confidant

Let's say 4 bob + 4 chalice + 2 trini = 10 cards for combo. My lands is UGbw by now. I'm thinking on flip grip to abrupt decay but i'm not sure if it's relevant. During a time i run blue trap too.

[KntrellCL]

I like the idea of Abrupt Decay for people who dont want to play RUGb Lands.

Something like:

1 EE
4 Dark Confidant
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Trinisphere
1 Tormod's Crypt

The second EE can take down DRS and gives you a faster response when you have already use another EE on the game in matches like RUG where mongoose could be really annoying for versions like mine without Mishra's Factory. +3 Abrupt Decay to destroy DRS, Scavenging or an early Dark Confidant, or Rest in Peace. Against SNT Sneak version you can destroy Blood Moon, which is not bad at all.

[GoldenCid]

And..what is your side plan against no omni SnT decks? Does bob see scene?

[KntrellCL]

I dont have any plan yet against SNT Sneak version. Ive been thinking... how good is Jace TMS against SNT match ups? I would play Jace against Sneak, but I dont know how good it is. It might be good with our Rishadan Ports, Wasteland Locks.... it can give us a vicotory in 6 turns, bouncing an emrakul or something, funny interaction with loams on GY, we can dig in our deck... what do you think?


I would play something like:

4 Dark Confidant
2 Jace, TMS
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Trinisphere
3 Spell Pierce
2 REB


Against every combo, I would play the whole SB except for Tormod's Crypt (I dont play Bojuka Bog on my MD). Once I played 4 Spell Pierce/3 REB and it really works, especially with 3phere. I dont use any space of my SB against DRS since I play RUGb Lands. Just an idea! I really love Chalice of the Void, Krosan Grip, etc...

I would probably take out in SNT Sneak MU:

-1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
-1 Glacial Chasm
-4 Punishing Fire
-1 EE
-2 Manabond
-3 Maze of Ith
-1 Zuran Orb
-1 Creeping Tar Pit
-1 Tranquil Thicket

Leaving Intuition in could be good on this MU.

[ESG]

Ive been thinking... how good is Jace TMS against SNT match ups? I would play Jace against Sneak, but I dont know how good it is.

Not that good. You can't drop it in with a Show and Tell, and I assume you're going to be tying up some mana with your Ports and holding up Spell Pierce mana if you have it. I would go with Pithing Needle or Phyrexian Revoker there. Both answer Sneak Attack and Griselbrand and can be played off Show and Tell or played preemptively, and you have Karakas, so you can answer both legends. Trinisphere is solid against the Omniscience version and effectively turns off Lotus Petal unless they play it before 3sphere comes down. Thalia is pretty solid in this matchup, too, although if they are playing Karakas, she's less so. Ensnaring Bridge is excellent unless they plop in Omniscence. If you're deep in blue, Venser is a decent option. Personally, I like dropping in something that kills whatever card they Show and Tell into play, so I like Spine of Ish Sah. There are a lot of strategies for fighting Show and Tell decks, so as long as you know the matchup and all your pieces are working toward that game plan, you should be good.

[GoldenCid]

Not that good. You can't drop it in with a Show and Tell, and I assume you're going to be tying up some mana with your Ports and holding up Spell Pierce mana if you have it. I would go with Pithing Needle or Phyrexian Revoker there. Both answer Sneak Attack and Griselbrand and can be played off Show and Tell or played preemptively, and you have Karakas, so you can answer both legends. Trinisphere is solid against the Omniscience version and effectively turns off Lotus Petal unless they play it before 3sphere comes down. Thalia is pretty solid in this matchup, too, although if they are playing Karakas, she's less so. Ensnaring Bridge is excellent unless they plop in Omniscence. If you're deep in blue, Venser is a decent option. Personally, I like dropping in something that kills whatever card they Show and Tell into play, so I like Spine of Ish Sah. There are a lot of strategies for fighting Show and Tell decks, so as long as you know the matchup and all your pieces are working toward that game plan, you should be good.

The problem with SnT MU is that you need the answer relatively fast (turn 3) so increasing the copies of answer is the way i think. I run bridge and karakas, spine sounds decent too. The problem is how many of each other?

On the other hand how many dual lands are you running?

[TBryant23]

I played Lands at SCG Atlanta and did fairly well, going 5-2-2, which is my best finish to date. If you all are interested I'll do a more detailed report, but for now just a quick recap. Thanks to KntrellCL for posting his list, I played 74 of his 75 replacing the Ancient Grudge in the sideboard for a 2nd EE.

There were 9 rounds and the match-ups went as follows:
Round 1 Mono-Red Burn 2-0
Round 2 Jund NicFit w/ Scapeshift Combo 0-2
Round 3 Esper Stoneblade 2-0
Round 4 GWB Junk/Maverick w/black splash 2-0
Round 5 Dredge 2-0
Round 6 UWr Rest in Piece/Energy Field/Helm of Obedience 1-2
Round 7 12-Post 1-1-1
Round 8 GWB Junk 1-0-1/2-1* Interesting story here
Round 9 Affinity 2-0

Random thoughts:
-Lands is very well positioned right now with the manabases that people are playing
-Deathrite Shaman isn't as big of a problem IF you play a punishing fire/grove list. This simple combo adds quite a bit to this deck in my opinion and I will always recommend it over lists without it for the time being.
-It is probably possible to play 0 win conditions and rely on boredom to win, which I did in round 9.
-This is a redundant comment, but I feel a necessary one to make. Tolaria West is the best card in the deck.
-Trinisphere was retarded all day.
-I wanted a 2nd EE maindeck every game.

Decklist:

Spells [24]

4 Life from the Loam
4 Exploration
2 Manabond
3 Intuition
4 Punishing Fire

Artifacts [7]

1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Zuran Orb
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Mox Diamond

Lands [37]

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Maze of Ith
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
2 Taiga
1 Forest
4 Windswept Heath
3 Tranquil Thicket
3 Tolaria West
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
1 Academy Ruins
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Sideboard:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Trinisphere
2 Krosan Grip
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Crucible of Worlds

[Go_Gaels]

Hey all,

I also played at SCG Atlanta with almost the same list posted above and finshed at 6-2-1 in 21st place. My list was as follows and is available on the coverage page for the event.

Spells:
4 mox diamond
4 exploration
4 intuition
4 life from the loam
3 punishing fire
2 engineered explosives
1 ensnaring bridge
1 crucible of worlds
1 oblivion stone
1 zuran orb

Lands:
3 tropical island
2 taiga
1 bayou
1 forest
2 verdant catacombs
1 misty rainforest
1 wooded foothills
4 wasteland
4 rishadan port
3 maze of ith
3 grove of the burnwillows
3 tolaria west
2 tranquil thicket
1 karakas
1 ghost quarter
1 tabernacle
1 glacial chasm
1 academy ruins
1 creeping tar pit

Sideboard:
4 dark confidant
4 chalice of the void
2 trinisphere
2 krosan grip
2 abrupt decay
1 cursed totem

my matchups were as follows:

R1: mono blue dream halls progenitus WIN 2-0
Game one involved me porting his basics, wastelanding his ancient tombs and eventually ghost quartering all his islands before he scooped. for game two i brought in 4 dark confidants and the two krosan grips (He had pitched dream halls to force in game one and I thought he was on the enter the infinite version. I was hoping that i could grip the omniscience that he put in play in response to enter the infinite. turned out to be wrong). I cast an early bob which let me recover when my loams got surgicaled. eventually i beat him down to a low enough life total that when he show and telled in a progenitus (I put in zuran orb LOL!) my double bob and tar-pit plus zuran orb raced his progenitus.

R2: Goblins WIN 2-0
This round went about as expected, i landed an early tabernacle, explosives'd away his vials, and hid behind ensaring bridge. nothing to see here. Punishing fire was really good this round.

R3: UWr Miracles with maindeck Rest in peace and BLOOD MOON OMGWTF LOSS 0-2
I got stomped pretty hard in game one to rest in peace and blood moon. i scooped to the jace he cast on turn 7. game two i land EE on two to kill his first RiP, then he plays a second and follows it up with meddling mage on EE and meddling mage on Krosan grip. :(

R4: Five color Cascade WIN 2-0
again not much to see here. wasteland + loam crushed his greedy manabase, punishing fire took care of all the deathrite shamans and, shardless agents, and bloodbraids, and i found enough mazes to take care of tarmogoyf. the only thing of note that happened is in game two i was able to resolve EE for two against his board of slyvan library, double goyf and counterbalance. kill that and then later he cast a stoneforge forgetting that he had boarded out all the equipment. LOL

R5: Jund LOSS 1-2
I couldn't find loam or tolaria west fast enough to deal with triple goyf in game one. I wasteland lock him out of game two. in game three i punt super hard. his board is double bob, sylvan library. I have three lands and cast an EE for two thinking that i haven't made my land drop for turn, which i had, and the EE got abrupt decayed. eventually the bobs drew him into enough gas to get there.

R6: Jund WIN 2-1
Punishing fire takes care of all the DRS, maze takes care of goyf, and i wasteland him out of the game

R7: Maverick WIN 2-1
at this point in the tournament i'm really exhausted which shows in game one. He was eventually able to get the full company of mom, thalia, knight, ooze and pridemage into play and i died. Game two i cast a turn one cursed totem on the play and he isn't able to do much of anything. I could tell that he hadn't boarded in the harmonic sliver by how many times he tried to activate his noble heirarch/pridemage/knight. Game three he plays turn one dryad arbor, i play mox land punishing fire. he plays non basics which get killed by my runner runner runner wastelands. he plays a non basic and a heirarch. i ee for one and play the fourth wasteland off the top. he scooped on the spot.

R8: Griselbrand Tendrils WIN 2-1
game one i put him on normal reanimator when he entombed for griselbrand. i wasteland/ghost quarter every land in his deck. game two he plays island double lotus petal to show and tell a griselbrand. i put in ensnaring bridge and think i'm safe. he then draws fourteen cards, plays another petal into children of korlis and draws another 14, plays some dark rituals into tendrils and kills me. OOPS. the rest of the chalices and trinisphere come in for game three. in game three i mull to six and keep tolaria west, maze of ith, double chalice, intuition, academy ruins. i play the tapped land and pass, he thoughtseizes taking the intuition. i play chalice on one, chalice on zero and lock him out of the game

R9: Sneak and Show INTENTIONAL DRAW
drew into the cash with Phillip Loren. I was really glad i got to draw this round, because of eight rounds of lands and basically no food i was ready to be done for the day.

Overall i thought the deck was very well positioned for this tournament. The punishing fires were really good for me all day (probably because i played against nothing but fair creature decks) and wasteland loam lock destroys all the greedy manabases around. I will say that i think the crucible of worlds was a little loose, and could be moved to the board/out of the deck, and I really miss having enlightened tutor in the deck, but i feel that punishing fire is a necessity to deal with all the DRS running around all day.

I'm also kind of proud of the fact that i was able to finish every round (many of them three games) with plenty of time left over to smoke after each.

let me know what you guys think about the deck, I've only been playng lands since the atlanta invitational last year and would love some suggestions.

[Stoyrm]

snip

First of all, congratulations! I have some questions :), I see you are not playing Manabond, did you miss them at all? Also, was Oblivion Stone a necessity?

[Go_Gaels]

First of all, congratulations! I have some questions :), I see you are not playing Manabond, did you miss them at all? Also, was Oblivion Stone a necessity?

Thanks much. As far as the manabonds go, i think if I were to play the deck again i'd add 1-2 manabonds. oftentimes i didn't see an exploration, and without that or manabond it was hard to keep up. as for the o-stone, i never needed to cast it throughout the day, and I think that if you're playing the two main deck explosives you don't need the stone. I'd probably cut one 0-stone and maybe one other card (probably the crucible) for two manabonds. one thing to note about the decklist is that i added the groves/fires at like 12:30am the night before the event, so cards like crucible and o-stone were holdovers from when i was playing e-tutor. i think without the tutors it's fine to cut those and play manabonds instead

[cuthbertthecat]

Thanks much. As far as the manabonds go, i think if I were to play the deck again i'd add 1-2 manabonds. oftentimes i didn't see an exploration, and without that or manabond it was hard to keep up. as for the o-stone, i never needed to cast it throughout the day, and I think that if you're playing the two main deck explosives you don't need the stone. I'd probably cut one 0-stone and maybe one other card (probably the crucible) for two manabonds. one thing to note about the decklist is that i added the groves/fires at like 12:30am the night before the event, so cards like crucible and o-stone were holdovers from when i was playing e-tutor. i think without the tutors it's fine to cut those and play manabonds instead

Agreed, you unfortunately probably need manabond in this list. Makes sideboarding easier at least. I like the list a lot, the only thing I disagree with is the second taiga, it seems unnecessary and would probably be better as either the 4th grove or maze, depending on whether you're concerned with your green source count. Congrats on the finish as well, that field looked pretty miserable for lands, but you plowed through some miserable matchups.

[movingtonewao]

I would like to chime in with my congratulations. You absolutely plowed your way through matchups that I thought would've been hard. Perhaps beating dream halls 2-0 in round 1 was a good sign of things to come for you.

If you would like to make some room for manabonds, I would have cut 1 intuition and 1 taiga.

Another thing I'd like to talk about: Abrupt Decays in the SB. Did they do anything significant for you all day?

________

Oh hi Alex, I see you decided to break your silence and say something. Its been awhile :)

[bartmanqc]

You can call me Mr. Greedy, but this is what I ran last weekly legacy and I'll try it again this week

4x Exploration
3x Intuition
3x Punishing Fire
2x Enlightened Tutor
4x Life from the Loam

4x Mox diamond
2x Engineered explosives
1x Zuran Orb
1x Crucible of worlds
1x Ensnaring Bridge

4x Wasteland
4x Rishadan Port
4x Maze of ith
4x Green Fetches
3x Tropical Island
1x Bayou
1x Taiga
1x Savannah
1x Forest
3x Tolaria West
1x Tranquil Thicket
3x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1x Academy Ruins
1x Glacial Chasm
1x Karakas
1x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Ghost Quarter

Sideboard
4x Chalice of the void
4x Dark Confidant
3x Thalia, Guardien of Thraben
2x Krosan Grip
1x Oblivion Stone
1x Tormod's crypt

There' no Omniscience or storm combo in my meta.. mostly midrange/control deck, so the meta is perfect for lands. That's why I keep white for the Etutor and thalia in the board. I love thalia after board. She's so good against control.
I never felt that 5 color was to much. So i'll try it again. But I prefer to go with Etutor than Manabond.

What do you think? Is 5 color too greedy?

[Go_Gaels]

Agreed, you unfortunately probably need manabond in this list. Makes sideboarding easier at least. I like the list a lot, the only thing I disagree with is the second taiga, it seems unnecessary and would probably be better as either the 4th grove or maze, depending on whether you're concerned with your green source count. Congrats on the finish as well, that field looked pretty miserable for lands, but you plowed through some miserable matchups.

The fourth maze is something I could get behind, but the second taiga was good for me. A lot of the time the fires were used to burn my opponent out before time ran out, and it was good to have a red source that didn't gain them a life.


I would like to chime in with my congratulations. You absolutely plowed your way through matchups that I thought would've been hard. Perhaps beating dream halls 2-0 in round 1 was a good sign of things to come for you.

If you would like to make some room for manabonds, I would have cut 1 intuition and 1 taiga.

Another thing I'd like to talk about: Abrupt Decays in the SB. Did they do anything significant for you all day?

The idea behind the abrupt decays was to have another card that killed DRS while also having added utility against RiP/blood moon/counterbalance/etc. I boarded it in against all the DRS decks, but the only time i cast it on the day was to kill a sylvan library that was drawing him three cards a turn. I'd probably cut one for the third trinisphere, but i'd keep one for sure.

[KntrellCL]

Agreed, you unfortunately probably need manabond in this list. Makes sideboarding easier at least. I like the list a lot, the only thing I disagree with is the second taiga, it seems unnecessary and would probably be better as either the 4th grove or maze, depending on whether you're concerned with your green source count. Congrats on the finish as well, that field looked pretty miserable for lands, but you plowed through some miserable matchups.

2 Taigas is just fine for the RG count. It can be fetched and helps a lot to burn several times your oponent. I havent miss the 4th Maze of Ith since PFire takes a lot of creatures down. Using 2 manabond would give you 10 initial accelerations, also giving you better initial hands.

[KntrellCL]

You can call me Mr. Greedy, but this is what I ran last weekly legacy and I'll try it again this week

4x Exploration
3x Intuition
3x Punishing Fire
2x Enlightened Tutor
4x Life from the Loam

4x Mox diamond
2x Engineered explosives
1x Zuran Orb
1x Crucible of worlds
1x Ensnaring Bridge

4x Wasteland
4x Rishadan Port
4x Maze of ith
4x Green Fetches
3x Tropical Island
1x Bayou
1x Taiga
1x Savannah
1x Forest
3x Tolaria West
1x Tranquil Thicket
3x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1x Academy Ruins
1x Glacial Chasm
1x Karakas
1x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Ghost Quarter

Sideboard
4x Chalice of the void
4x Dark Confidant
3x Thalia, Guardien of Thraben
2x Krosan Grip
1x Oblivion Stone
1x Tormod's crypt

There' no Omniscience or storm combo in my meta.. mostly midrange/control deck, so the meta is perfect for lands. That's why I keep white for the Etutor and thalia in the board. I love thalia after board. She's so good against control.
I never felt that 5 color was to much. So i'll try it again. But I prefer to go with Etutor than Manabond.

What do you think? Is 5 color too greedy?


You can fetch 7 of your artifacts with tolaria west... the other two with intuition or dredging a lot. Manabond is just the bomb on G1 if you didn't draw exploration in the first couple of turns. I really miss Thalia, she is a really great card but it's my sacrifice to play Red in Lands, but 5 color is TOO much. Also, you need to play more Tranquil Thickets.... this card is a key on G2/G3 and it's your engine for Loam, also is an anti-Vendillion Clique (drawing your card in your draw step and dredging with Tranquil Thicket in your Main Phase).

[KntrellCL]

I played Lands at SCG Atlanta and did fairly well, going 5-2-2, which is my best finish to date. If you all are interested I'll do a more detailed report, but for now just a quick recap. Thanks to KntrellCL for posting his list, I played 74 of his 75 replacing the Ancient Grudge in the sideboard for a 2nd EE.

There were 9 rounds and the match-ups went as follows:
Round 1 Mono-Red Burn 2-0
Round 2 Jund NicFit w/ Scapeshift Combo 0-2
Round 3 Esper Stoneblade 2-0
Round 4 GWB Junk/Maverick w/black splash 2-0
Round 5 Dredge 2-0
Round 6 UWr Rest in Piece/Energy Field/Helm of Obedience 1-2
Round 7 12-Post 1-1-1
Round 8 GWB Junk 1-0-1/2-1* Interesting story here
Round 9 Affinity 2-0

Random thoughts:
-Lands is very well positioned right now with the manabases that people are playing
-Deathrite Shaman isn't as big of a problem IF you play a punishing fire/grove list. This simple combo adds quite a bit to this deck in my opinion and I will always recommend it over lists without it for the time being.
-It is probably possible to play 0 win conditions and rely on boredom to win, which I did in round 9.
-This is a redundant comment, but I feel a necessary one to make. Tolaria West is the best card in the deck.
-Trinisphere was retarded all day.
-I wanted a 2nd EE maindeck every game.

Decklist:

Spells [24]

4 Life from the Loam
4 Exploration
2 Manabond
3 Intuition
4 Punishing Fire

Artifacts [7]

1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Zuran Orb
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Mox Diamond

Lands [37]

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Maze of Ith
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
2 Taiga
1 Forest
4 Windswept Heath
3 Tranquil Thicket
3 Tolaria West
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
1 Academy Ruins
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Sideboard:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Trinisphere
2 Krosan Grip
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Crucible of Worlds



Im really glad reading this. I think you did great and we all want a report of this Lands players. What would you take out for the 2d EE? It could be 1 Tranquil Thicket?

[cuthbertthecat]

I'm not saying the second/sixth taiga effect is wrong, i'm just saying that it's hard to imagine needing to fetch 2 in order to burn your opponents out unless they're gaining life of their own volition. The 4th grove seems like it would be better in almost every situation.

[KntrellCL]

I'm not saying the second/sixth taiga effect is wrong, i'm just saying that it's hard to imagine needing to fetch 2 in order to burn your opponents out unless they're gaining life of their own volition. The 4th grove seems like it would be better in almost every situation.



You can get back 3 punishing fire or 4 only giving our oponent 1 life. That's the maximun EV we can get from PFire...with the second Taiga you can cast at least double Fires without hiving him another life...
with 4 groves you cant do several fires without nullyfing the lifes you take with the lifes uou give.

[Go_Gaels]

I'm not saying the second/sixth taiga effect is wrong, i'm just saying that it's hard to imagine needing to fetch 2 in order to burn your opponents out unless they're gaining life of their own volition. The 4th grove seems like it would be better in almost every situation.

I've been thinking about this today and I'm going to have to agree with cuthbert. I think making sure that you get fires recurring in the first place is probably more important than being able to burn people out in the late game. In the matchups where you want fires you REALLY want fires. Ill try cutting the second taiga for the fourth grove. As far as only three maze goes, I was skeptical at first, but after playing with the deck, punishing fire gives you enough time in the early game to find your mazes later. There was never a point where I needed to have all four in play at the same time. (But the best part of only playing three was not having to play one ugly from the vault maze).

[cuthbertthecat]

You can get back 3 punishing fire or 4 only giving our oponent 1 life. That's the maximun EV we can get from PFire...with the second Taiga you can cast at least double Fires without hiving him another life...
with 4 groves you cant do several fires without nullyfing the lifes you take with the lifes uou give.

That's entirely irrelevant because by the time you're concerned with burning them out you can just tar pit them instead.


I've been thinking about this today and I'm going to have to agree with cuthbert. I think making sure that you get fires recurring in the first place is probably more important than being able to burn people out in the late game. In the matchups where you want fires you REALLY want fires. Ill try cutting the second taiga for the fourth grove. As far as only three maze goes, I was skeptical at first, but after playing with the deck, punishing fire gives you enough time in the early game to find your mazes later. There was never a point where I needed to have all four in play at the same time. (But the best part of only playing three was not having to play one ugly from the vault maze).

Only 3 mazes makes sense in this list more than most, so it's fine to keep at 3. The only concern is being a bit more vulnerable to goyf, but goyf usually gives you 3-4 turns to find a maze so it should be fine.

[KntrellCL]

That's entirely irrelevant because by the time you're concerned with burning them out you can just tar pit them instead.



Only 3 mazes makes sense in this list more than most, so it's fine to keep at 3. The only concern is being a bit more vulnerable to goyf, but goyf usually gives you 3-4 turns to find a maze so it should be fine.



You are probably right, but remember when you play the fire/grove engine you usually use grove to generates G to cast loam, and EVERY time to use punishing to burn a creature our oponents gain 1 life. Using two Taigas can help you to keep his life count as low as you can and then finish them off with Creeping Tar.

Once I had this ETERNAL match against a UW Landstill. I got control when he was 30+ (I was Punishing a Jace TMS, a reccurent Batterskull) and when I got my exploration I started to Ghost Quarter all his Lands. We were at the first game and the time was almost gone. I still got to win this game so instead of attacking him in 10+ turns, I kill him in 5. Nevermind, I think 3 Groves is perfect for 4 Punishing and it give us more targets for our fetchlands (6 dual lands +1 forest)

[TBryant23]

Hey everyone! Just a short introduction before the meat and potatoes. My name is Taylor and I live in Cleveland, Tn. I am a 24 year old senior Political Science student at Lee University with aspirations of Law School one day; who knows, we'll see where God and life take me. I have played Legacy almost exclusively for the past 2 to 2 and a half years. I've played a variety of decks, but all have had one or more of the following cards in them; Life From the Loam, Brainstorm, Lion's Eye Diamond, and/or Counterbalance. These are the decks I enjoy most; longer and grindier games that open up many lines of play and decision paths. The reasons I started playing Legacy were the Lands and Counterbalance decks.
So now that the intro is out of the way, let's get to the good stuff. I had been planning to go to this event for about 3 months prior when an old, old friend began getting in to Legacy. we made plans to hang out and go to this event; general good times all around. The Friday and Saturday before the event, a freak winter weather streak hits middle and eastern Tennessee and northern Georgia, which, conveniently, are the areas that we need to be able to travel in. Everything works out and we are able to make it to the event safely and on time.
Upon arrival we see the now outside food or drinks sign. We hide all of our contraband in our backpacks like bosses and stroll in. We meet up with the 30+ people we know, register, and hang out until it's time to battle. Just an aside I feel like bragging about, they always have some corny joke about not having food/drink on the tables and use a parody of a card name to describe the possible disastrous results, underground tea, dark coffedant, force of spill, etc. I see the head judge when I'm registering, and seeing as I haven't been to an event in a long time, I seize the opportunity to come up with one, DeathSPRITE Shaman. He and a few others laugh. When the rules announcements are being made, the head judge uses my joke. BUH DUM TISSSS. You're welcome for those that were in attendance.
For reference, here is the list I played:

Decklist:

Spells [24]

4 Life from the Loam
4 Exploration
2 Manabond
3 Intuition
4 Punishing Fire

Artifacts [7]

1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Zuran Orb
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Mox Diamond

Lands [37]

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Maze of Ith
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
2 Taiga
1 Forest
4 Windswept Heath
3 Tranquil Thicket
3 Tolaria West
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
1 Academy Ruins
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale



Sideboard:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Trinisphere
2 Krosan Grip
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Crucible of Worlds


Round 1 against David playing Mono Red Burn

SB: -2 Tranquil Thickets, -2 Manabonds, -1 Ensnaring Bridge, -1 Karakas. +4 Chalice, +2 Trinisphere
Game 1

I know David from a local store. Nice guy, new to Legacy, and/or magic in general. He usually plays Dredge or Burn. I win the roll and as I fan open the opening 7 I keep this in mind. I keep a hand of Fetch, Trop, Orb, Exploration, Loam, Chasm, and Tolaria West. Good hand against both. He gets me to around 8 before he is out of gas and I have loam and orb going with chasm. He goes to game 2. Interesting note, Goblin Guide draws me 14 cards this game.

Game 2

Open up a hand of Mox Diamond, exploration, loam, chalice, maze, chasm, tolaria west. He lands a goblin guide. My turn, I don't go crazy on him and just play out loam for the dredging to be nice and let him enjoy the game and go easy on him. He lands another guide and chain lightning + fireblast. That's easy enough. I end up getting Orb, chalice on 1 and trinisphere out to which he laughs, tells me he's glad I don't play this very often in our l events, shakes my hand, and signs the slip.

1-0

Round 2

I apologize, but I forgot to write my opponents name down, I think it was David Clark playing Jund NicFit Scapeshift Veteran Explorer.dec
SB: -2 Manabond, -1 Karaks, -2 Tranquil Thicket, -1 Ensnaring Bridge. +2 Trinisphere, +1 Crucible, +4 Bob

Game 1

I go Diamond, Diamond, Trop, Loam, Manabond 2x Mazes, and a Tabernacle into play. No one beats this. Burning Wish for Slaughter Games, Eternal Witness for Slaughter Games, Burning Wish for Slaughter Games, Volrath's Stronghold. /wrists. 7 minutes later my loams, punishing fires, and intuitions are gone and I get Scapeshifted.

Game 2

Same thing from him, except it just takes longer. He was a nice guy, super chill, and easy to cut up with; exactly the kind of person I wish to play with and against. NicFit has always given me trouble, but this was the worst simply because I couldn't grind him out nor present a relevant clock, nor contain his mana. Oh well, thems the beats.

1-1

Round 3

Gerald playing Esper StoneBlade

SB: -1 Karakas, -2 Manabond, -2 Tranquil Thickets, -1 Maze. +2 Krosan Grip, +4 Bob

Game 1

I open on Exploration to a sigh and a "I have no clue what to do against this deck." I'll take it. He gets me to 14 before the game is over. His opener had 3 non-basics and mine had 2 wastelands and a loam, and a punishing fire for the stoneforge into batterskull. He eventually gets 3 basics and a lingering souls + flashback but EE takes that and by now I am ghost quartering him twice a turn.

Game 2

He fetches all basics I have a slower draw without an exploration. He gets me to 4 with a geist, snapcaster, and stoneforge. I Krosan gripped his Feast/Famine Sword. Eventually I resolve Intuition for 3 explorations, land that, and begin ghost quartering and wastelanding him. He gets me to 2 before I need to get Zuran Orb, and after that I get rid of all his lands and play my favorite card in the game, Tabernacle.

2-1

Round 4 Matt playing Junk

This match took around 10-15 minutes. He played 5 lands, 3 creatures, and a sylvan library in 2 games. I Both games I opened on something like exploration, waste, waste, loam, mox diamond. I genuinely felt bad for doing this to the guy.

3-1

Round 5

Justin Playing Dredge

-4 Punishing Fire. +1 Tormod's Crypt, +1 EE, +2 Trinisphere

He flashes me a Golgari Troll and a Bridge from Below while he's shuffling. Obviously he's playing High Tide.

Game 1

I open on Exploration, wasteland, loam. He takes a mulligan to 5 or 4. He scoops after I drop Ensnaring Bridge and empty my hand, saying he has no outs.
Game 2

He's on the draw discard plan. His first play is pretty fantastic LED, LED, 2x Flashback Faithless Lootings Dredging 4 Bridges, 4 Ichorids, and 2 Narcomeobas. No Cabal Therapies though. He laughs and says beat that. Mox Diamond, MoxDiamond, Academy Ruins, Xmute for Tormod's Crypt. I reply beat THAT. He laughs, says he can't, and scoops. A super chill local guy and pretty funny. I'll take it.

4-1

Round 6

Chris Boozier on U/W/r RiP/Energy Field/Helm of Obedience

Game 1

This was the first grindy match of the day. We get deckchecked, laugh, and suggest pulling out different decks to play with. He laughs, says he has RUG. I laugh and pull out ANT. We get our decks back and begin. He is short on mana and ports and a few wastes get him in check before counterbalance and top come online. I eventually grind him out after blowing up his RiP with EE. He scoops after I get rid of all his white sources and start sending creeping tard pit and punishing fires at him.

Games 2 and 3 play out in a similar manner, except game 2 I almost win on the back of dark Confidants, but can't draw a Krosan Grip nor an EE or TWest to stop the blood moon that is shutting off my wastelands from killing his only 4 lands, which are 3 nonbasics and an island. Eventually he draws a plains and gets stoneforge into batterskull. 2 Bobs get him to 11 before batterskull takes over, but they never draw the answer I need.

Game 3

I mull to 4 to his turn 2 RiP, Turn 3 CB/Top, Turn 4 Blood Moon, Turn 5 Jace.

Oh well, disappointing, but it happens. So no top 8 for me, yet again, but I'm enjoying myself and all my friends are still in contention for money so we decide to keep going. I don't get to play very often due to money, school, and life, and I get to see all of my friends even less, so I rarely drop from an event unless I'm absolutely miserable.

Round 6

Nick on 12-post

SB: -2 Tranquil Thickets, -4 Punishing Fire. +1 EE, +4 Bob, +1 Crucible

Game 1

I saw Nick earlier and knew he was playing 12-post. This should be over quickly, 1 basic, 0 countermagic, and easy to play around GY hate. I'm on the draw. He hasn't seen me play all day. My hand is Trop, manabond, 3 wastelands, loam, and punishing fire I think. He goes turn 1 pithing needle on Wasteland...blind.../wristsinfinitelyf7u12tableflipAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHRIGHT INTHECHILDHOOD. Turn 2 he is just plain bad mannered and drops needles 2 and 3 on Ghost Quarter and Rishadan Port. Fine, I'll find an EE and stop this crap. Never see the EE, Tolaria West, nor an Intuition.

Game 2

I get the same exact hand with turn 1 bob and an exploration. He's never in this game.

Game 3

We end up drawing. I don't remember much other than I play around surgical like a boss, until the end, when time is running out and I'm forced to make a play. I have Loam, Ghost Quarter, Wasteland, and Rishadan Port in the GY. and 1 waste and 1 port in play to not get extracted. I loam for those 3. He windmill slams not 1, not 2, not 3, but 4 surgicals. I counter 1 by cycling tranquil thicket, but he gets the wastelands, ports, and the ghost quarter. I dredge my Crucible as well. at the end of my turn he expedition maps for bojuka bog and my academy ruins is tapped. sigh... we end up drawing.

Pretty sure I was exhausted and played bad far more than he was lucky. Oh well, now I know how to play against the deck. I might have sideboarded incorrectly as well, maybe chalice of the void should have come in.

4-2-1

Round 8

Joel with Maverick Splashing black for Abrupt Decay and Shaman

SB: -2 Tranquil Thicket, -2 Manabond. +1 EE, +1 Crucible, +1 Tormod's Crypt, + 2 Krosan Grip

Game 1

I'm on tilt, I play okay versus good, and get promptly punished for it. Scryb Ranger is a card. It is the direct counter to wasteland in this deck. I never see a punishing fire, intuition, or an EE. 2 timely wastelands get my maze of iths and I can't get a loam to get them back and get killed by a scryb ranger with sword of fire and ice.

Game 2 is a horrible grind fest. It takes about 35 minutes and we draw it. I mess up bad and get my loams surgicaled by not leaving up green for cycling. I manage to finally gain control with an ensnaring bridge, crucible, zuran orb, and some punishing fires but I can't kill him fast enough and this match goes to him 1-0-1.

4-3-1

As an aside, I say that my record is 5-2-2, but the actual record on the books is 5-3-1. We have a chat after we finish, along with friends and the consensus is that had I not played bad and mulliganed better, I was a strong favorite. He even admitted that with a reasonable draw, I should win and probably would in an untimed match. That's why I say my record is 5-2-2. I have only lost to decks like this 2-3 times. I feel comfortable saying I have around a 95% win rate.

Round 9

Jeremy with Affinity

SB: -1 Karakas, -1 Tranquil Thicket, -1 Tolaria West, -1 Rishadan Port. +2 Trinisphere, +2 Krosan Grip

Game 1

Game takes 35 minutes. I intentionally take as much time to kill him as possible. The game is over on turn 5 when I have Ensnaring Bridge, Tabernacle, Manabond and 3 Wastelands in the GY along with 2 groves for the punishing fire. Throughout the day there were 2-3 people that would watch my matches and chat with me about the deck as they were interested in it. I played with my hand face up and explained most of my decisions to them and my opponent. He was locked and I was content to sit there until I had 10 minutes left and kill him with tard pit and punishing fires. I enjoy talking theory with people quite a bit and it was neat having the improvised q and a session like this. No disrespect to my opponent, but Lands cannot lose to affinity and he should have packed it in on turn 5.

Game 2 is much of the same except my opponent only has one land, AWWWWWW YEAAAAAH! Darksteel Citadel. I ask the judge watching us if I can change the name on my deck sheet to Bad Luck Brian. Everyone laughs. Ensnaring Bridge, Trinisphere, and a Krosan Grip later seals the deal.

5-3-1/5-2-2

Good for 52nd place and 50$. I was happy all day. My losses were 90% my fault and the deck performed quite well. I now need to buy my own Taigas and Groves, thanks to Josh Burgoa for lending me his for the event. Afterwards we went to Chili's and caught the last half or so of the superbowl. I had no inclination for either team and I don't like football near as much as I do baseball.
Any questions, comments, critiques, helpfulness is greatly appreciated and wanted. Hope you guys enjoyed the report.

Until next time,
TBryant23

[Phelix]

you go 5-3-1 and feel like you have a 95% winrate?

what did I overlook?

I see you chose to play two manabonds, can you talk bit about this?

you play only 7 artifacts. did you test others, and what has led to only 7?

you play 3 maze of ith. this is a little unusual, how come 3?

you bring in trinisphere for game two, having won game 1. I wonder why? most of the time, he has a full board by the time you play the trinisphere? can you talk abit about your sideboarding decisions here? I think I would be tempted to side in the second EE, but you opted not to?

[TBryant23]

you go 5-3-1 and feel like you have a 95% winrate?

what did I overlook?

This was in reference to the win rate versus that particular archetype, not on the day.


I see you chose to play two Manabonds, can you talk bit about this?

I wanted the 2 Manabonds to increase the odds of a turn one Exploration/Manabond effect for one, and as a way to catch up in the later turns if I didn't have an Exploration/Manabond early game. I have played with a singular Manabond before, but in Enlightened Tutor builds where I had 2-3 Enlightened Tutors to get one if I needed it. And it made sideboarding much easier in all but 2, if I recall correctly, matches.


you play only 7 artifacts. did you test others, and what has led to only 7?

I would usually play with an Oblivion Stone, 2nd Engineered Explosives, and possibly a Sensei's Divining Top, but with the addition of Punishing Fire and my expectations of the what the metagame would be, those didn't seem needed, felt kind of wonky and superfluous, and/or the threats they answered, were, in my logic, handled by the Ensnaring Bridge, Zuran Orb, and 1 Engineered Explosives.


you play 3 maze of ith. this is a little unusual, how come 3?

Punishing Fire/Grove of the Burnwillows Combo + Engineered Explosives, if needed, handled the little guys. Might as well have fewer not mana-producing lands.


you bring in trinisphere for game two, having won game 1. I wonder why? most of the time, he has a full board by the time you play the trinisphere? can you talk abit about your sideboarding decisions here? I think I would be tempted to side in the second EE, but you opted not to?

I'm assuming you're talking about the Round 9 game against affinity here, so I'll go with my explanation for that. I saw cards like Stifle, Dispatch, Thoughtcast, etc Game 1. I can play a Trinisphere easily on turns 1 to 2 and I felt they did more for me than Karakas and 1 Rishadan Port by not allowing those turns of vomit stuff into play, and Thoughtcast multiple times in one turn.

[lyracian]

Good for 52nd place and 50$. I was happy all day. My losses were 90% my fault and the deck performed quite well. I now need to buy my own Taigas and Groves, thanks to Josh Burgoa for lending me his for the event. Afterwards we went to Chili's and caught the last half or so of the superbowl. I had no inclination for either team and I don't like football near as much as I do baseball.
Any questions, comments, critiques, helpfulness is greatly appreciated and wanted. Hope you guys enjoyed the report.
That was a nice read and well done on winning $50 (I assume that is more than the entry fee).

On sideboard cards what do you think of Abrupt Decay vs Krosan Grip?
Also a single Crypt seems very little grave hate. Where you not expecting to need to deal with many graveyards?
Finally what are you thoughts on running a single Entomb? You seemed to have quite a few points where you were trying to dig for an answer card.

[KntrellCL]

That was a nice read and well done on winning $50 (I assume that is more than the entry fee).

On sideboard cards what do you think of Abrupt Decay vs Krosan Grip?
Also a single Crypt seems very little grave hate. Where you not expecting to need to deal with many graveyards?
Finally what are you thoughts on running a single Entomb? You seemed to have quite a few points where you were trying to dig for an answer card.

You can fetch Tormod's Crypt with 3 Tolaria West on MD (4 outs) and use academy ruins to cast it again.


I used to play a single copy of Entomb, and I really love this card, but with the raise of DRS Entomb has come weaker.

[TBryant23]

That was a nice read and well done on winning $50 (I assume that is more than the entry fee).

On sideboard cards what do you think of Abrupt Decay vs Krosan Grip?
Also a single Crypt seems very little grave hate. Where you not expecting to need to deal with many graveyards?
Finally what are you thoughts on running a single Entomb? You seemed to have quite a few points where you were trying to dig for an answer card.
Lyracian,
Thank you and I'm glad you enjoyed it. Krosan Grip is better, in my opinion and, it is easier to cast under a Blood Moon, kills Batterskull, Sneak Attack, Omniscience, etc and ALL other equipment,and it kills weird cards like Helm of Obedience and Leylines. I haven't played with Abrupt Decay, but I can see upsides to it like an additional out to creatures like Deathrite Shaman. Scavenging Ooze, etc. On Entomb, I have played with lists that play 1-2, and it was merely okay. It's best trick, that I ever got to do with it anyway was a quick EoT fetch out a Life From the Loam to continue dredging, but your Loams should only be gone if you play carelessly OR your opponent just wants to beat the tar out of GY decks and has all the answers maindecked game 1, but mostly only lost to carelessness. On the graveyard hate issue, the deck already has game against the graveyard decks through other means. We can use Dredge as an example as it is probably the most common graveyard deck played, at least at the moment, if not period. They kill you with creatures. You have Glacial Chasm, Ensnaring Bridge, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, and Engineered Explosives to deal with them. Removing their graveyard in game 2 is only another way to fight them as they get to bring in answers for the above cards, like Nature's Claim, Ancient Grudge, Ray of Revelation, and reanimation targets like Angel of Despair and Terrastodon. The way I see it is that you are sideboarding to beat their sideboard more than to beat their deck; Dredge goes from the combo kill to a more grind you out style deck. But sometimes, fortune smiles on you, as it did with me, and you get the crazy kills like I did. Reanimator has the same principles except you can add Karakas and Maze of Ith to the list above. Hope this gave you some insight and answered what you wanted/needed answered.

[Serbitar]

Also a single Crypt seems very little grave hate.

To add to what the guy above me pointed out: The dedicated graveyard decks like Dredge and Reanimator tend to be pretty good matchups already, so having more hate seems excessive. (edit: well, guess Bryant pointed that out already)

As for Grip vs Decay, Decay seems pretty hard to cast in this deck. I would tend to run neither, unless I was expecting Back to Basics specifically (and then Grip is better). Against most other stuff like Leyline, Rest in Peace, Blood Moon, random hatebears and whatever I would prefer Oblivion Stone

I also really like the Punishing Fires idea (theoretically) in the current Deathrite meta and look forward to trying it out in a tournament soon. It also sort of doubles as a solution to planeswalkers. Kudos to whoever came up with that.

[KntrellCL]

To add to what the guy above me pointed out: The dedicated graveyard decks like Dredge and Reanimator tend to be pretty good matchups already, so having more hate seems excessive. (edit: well, guess Bryant pointed that out already)

As for Grip vs Decay, Decay seems pretty hard to cast in this deck. I would tend to run neither, unless I was expecting Back to Basics specifically (and then Grip is better). Against most other stuff like Leyline, Rest in Peace, Blood Moon, random hatebears and whatever I would prefer Oblivion Stone

I also really like the Punishing Fires idea (theoretically) in the current Deathrite meta and look forward to trying it out in a tournament soon. It also sort of doubles as a solution to planeswalkers. Kudos to whoever came up with that.

I think that would be me haha lol


Today I used Abrupt Decay on SB (x2) and came up in every game. First round against BUG Agent.... he concede very frustraded. 2d Round Goblins, I won first game with 4 rishadan ports against 4 mountains and PFires... 3rd round... RUG.... I keep a hand with Grove/Fires because I didnt know what to expect.... I lost first game in no time... now I used my 15 cards on SB, play chalice at 1, trinisphere, creeping tar pit.... 2d game, chalice at 1, 2, 3, trinisphere, zuran orb, crucible... lol.... last round was against UR delver... I won 2-0... first game intuition T2 for loam glacial tolaria west, next turn Intuition for 3 Exploration and took the game... 2nd game... chalice at 1, 2, trinisphere and attack him with creeping tar :smile:

I used Abrupt Decay in Goblins, RUG and UR delver match up... against bug it would be good since he play only 3CC cards... but he conceded from G1 and told me "your deck is just brainless, you play alone, there's no interaction, cry cry cry bla bla bla" jaja

[TBryant23]

... but he conceded from G1 and told me "your deck is just brainless, you play alone, there's no interaction, cry cry cry bla bla bla" jaja

The only thing close to that I have ever gotten was something to the effect of, "You're dumb and an ass. It takes a special kind of ****** like you to play a deck like that." This was when Maverick was a DTB and I played the Enlightened Tutor build and the turn went something like Wasteland his only land, Gaea's Cradle, play Cursed Totem, play The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale. Sooooo good; everyone but the Maverick guy laughed.

[Go_Gaels]

but he conceded from G1 and told me "your deck is just brainless, you play alone, there's no interaction, cry cry cry bla bla bla" jaja

My favorite one from scg Atlanta was when in round three I was seated next to brad Nelson and he told me that "players like me are what makes him hate legacy as a format. Because lands players just sit there, do nothing, and ruin everyone's tournament experience."

Whatever bro.

[Megadeus]

Sorry lurker here. Lands at least interact with the opponent. Its not belcher or dredge. I hate hearing people cry about decks. I played TES at SCG ATL and my affinity opponent goes "I play this deck because I like playing real magic"

[KntrellCL]

Because Affinity is real magic HAHAHAHA

When this guy told me that.... I just said.... "dude... we play 4 swiss round tournaments.... 3 of 4 matches I play against DRS (he was playing DRS also) and the 4th match is combo.... what are you whinning about?" He was pretty upset with his board 2 goyf, 1 dark confidant, a shardless agent, 1 liliana of the veil with 5 counters, a jace tms with 9 counters and I didnt play any exploration on the entire game... just loam, maze, punishing fire, EE and academy ruins.


Ive been told I ruin everyone's tournament experience but I really dont care... I have UW miracles, Junk, Zoo, Sligh as well but I really like this deck.... I think is the hardest deck I ever had and really enjoy every victory

[TBryant23]

My favorite one from scg Atlanta was when in round three I was seated next to brad Nelson and he told me that "players like me are what makes him hate legacy as a format. Because lands players just sit there, do nothing, and ruin everyone's tournament experience."

Whatever bro.

I'd have told him that players that don't put up a notable performance for 2 years, yet still get coverage at large events ruin my tournament experience.

[TBryant23]

Haters gonna hate. Nothing can be done, except Wasteland/Ghost Quarter them out. If people cop an attitude with me when I play, I'll purposely, once the game is unloseable of course, Ghost Quarter all of their lands away and sit there like a derp until 1 Creeping Tar Pit in 7 turns will kill them and then take the full 3 minutes allowed to de-sideboard and shuffle. Homie don't play; if I can sit through a year of RUG Delver mirrors and Sneak Attack Decks, you can handle 35 minutes of Life From the Loam.

[cuthbertthecat]

My favorite one from scg Atlanta was when in round three I was seated next to brad Nelson and he told me that "players like me are what makes him hate legacy as a format. Because lands players just sit there, do nothing, and ruin everyone's tournament experience."

Whatever bro.

Heh, after SCG KC he told me that he hated me for playing that deck. To be fair, there are no dumb big animals in lands, so I can see why he doesn't like it.

[movingtonewao]

Actually we do have big dumb "animals", does creeping tar pit count?

[Phelix]

played the red list today, for giggles. after a handfull of games on cocktatrice, crushing randoms, i took it to small local event.


Punishing fire was kinda meh i thought. Certainly playing 4 grove is correct, a couple of times i killed something with fire, but couldnt return it due to missing grove and felt slightly dissapointed.

oblivion stone, at least as a sideboard card makes sense imo. in certain matchups, I missed it.

went 2-2, losing to miracles (silly draws, he actually outramped me, despite my exploration) and reanimator. Beating ANT (2-0 wtf) and Death/Taxes (blowout win).

will be playing it more to get a feel for it. I feel like its radically different in its approach. I played 2x maindeck EE and liked it quite alot. When they both got surgically extracted from my graveyard, i hated it.

I pondering wether maindeck wurm harvest is correct to stall and/or swing tempo. I like the card, and its the only card we could have that swings the tempo (even making 4, then 5 tokens is massive).


edit: all above pertains to the grove/punishing fire versions.

[OneBigSquirrelGod]

I'm torn between E Tutors and Raven's Crimes:

Enlightened Tutor
Dredge
Sneak & Show
Merfolk
RUG Delver
Shardless BUG
Elves
Zombies
Junk
Reanimator
Painter
Goblins

Raven's Crime
UWR Delver
ANT
12 Post
Esper Stoneblade
TES
Charbelcher
UW Miracles
Omni Tell
UR Delver
High Tide

In my opinion (and I don't want this to turn into an argument), I think Punishing Fire builds are trash, which put a lot more emphasis on our graveyards, and is only good against Deathrite Shaman. With all the different archetypes, I feel that its not worth running PF just to stop 4 Decks in the format (which it is not a guarantee anyways). Above is the list of what I think is better against which deck. Any recommendations (cutbert, Phelix)?

[Stoyrm]

snip

I guess i'll chip in, as i don't belive Punishing fire is bad. It's good in any sort of grindy matchup. Also, i believe it's definitely possible to play raven's crime and punishing fire. With enlightened tutor i had a very hard time beating deathrite shaman (in a BUG Delver list). I always felt like i was in the game, but their draws can just crush your's and spesifically if they know how to play.

Is it really impossible to play both enlightened tutor and raven's crime if you are dead set on playing those cards though?

[Phelix]

nothing is impossible, but im not sure ravens crime is the way to go right now. I think it was something people playing in combo and control metas, but perhaps my personal preference shines through here. I always considered it underwhelming.


on punishing fires - I think its the best possible answer to deathrite. and also does good work game 1 vs liliana. If your meta is deathrite heavy, its a pretty good solution.

I think i prefer shifting to 2 maindeck EE and not playing fires, but its based ony my meta, where there is less deathrite shaman.

[Stoyrm]

nothing is impossible, but im not sure ravens crime is the way to go right now. I think it was something people playing in combo and control metas, but perhaps my personal preference shines through here. I always considered it underwhelming.

But isn't that today's meta? DRS decks + combo seems to be the flavour of the last three months

[Phelix]

just edited my previous post.

my local meta is not DRS heavy.

also, the red lists dont play bojuka bog. I think its time to play 1 main.

[KntrellCL]

I'm torn between E Tutors and Raven's Crimes:

Enlightened Tutor
Dredge
Sneak & Show
Merfolk
RUG Delver
Shardless BUG
Elves
Zombies
Junk
Reanimator
Painter
Goblins

Raven's Crime
UWR Delver
ANT
12 Post
Esper Stoneblade
TES
Charbelcher
UW Miracles
Omni Tell
UR Delver
High Tide

In my opinion (and I don't want this to turn into an argument), I think Punishing Fire builds are trash, which put a lot more emphasis on our graveyards, and is only good against Deathrite Shaman. With all the different archetypes, I feel that its not worth running PF just to stop 4 Decks in the format (which it is not a guarantee anyways). Above is the list of what I think is better against which deck. Any recommendations (cutbert, Phelix)?



I think PFire gives you a better edge against decks you shouldnt be losing like any Tempo deck. I max out my deck against aggro/control decks and leave my SB against combo. I didnt test Enlightened Tutor that much, I just dont like it, but I really miss Thalia. I really like Raven's crime is a monster against Control decks, but I think is TOO slow against Combo. So using 3-slots for a card which is VERY mana-demanding against a MU we usually win, is just a win+. At least we have plenty of choices with Lands and everyone should I just pick up the one it fits better for them. Ive been playing PFires for months and I havent regret.


I start playing cockatrice a few days ago (i used to play only in real tournaments here) and it is very good for practicing. I always lose against combo decks G1, and it is normal.... what is not normal for me is losing againts a tempo deck cause he's playing Shaman. I also have a better chance against Elves and Jace's decks.

[Phelix]

I think your argument against enlightened tutor is a bit funny :)

dont you think that playing more EE would improve many of those same matchups, while giving us options vs control and their annoying enchantments.

[KntrellCL]

just edited my previous post.

my local meta is not DRS heavy.

also, the red lists dont play bojuka bog. I think its time to play 1 main.

I think two EE is just great.... because playing just 1 sometimes it's too slow. If your meta is not DRS-Heavy, two EE is just enough.


In my opinion, DRS has been a curse and a bless for Lands Deck... it totally wrecks our deck, but at least it took out KOTR and many combo decks (hymn to tourach, thoughtseize, etc). Any DRS deck plays Abrupt decay which took out plenty of RIP combos deck, and plays a lot of discard taking care of combos and DRS shrinks KOTR.

[cuthbertthecat]

I think I'd prefer Enlightened Tutor to Raven's Crime right now because the Intuition plan is mediocre against Deathrite, at least the Tutor lists have a way to efficiently search for bullets while the Crime lists don't really have an alternative tutor plan to Intuition. I do think that Fires is better than people are giving it credit for; the matchups where it's good used to be our best matchups, but deathrite and decay have changed how those matchups play out and Fires plays around the hate cards that they have pretty well.

[Go_Gaels]

I'm torn between E Tutors and Raven's Crimes:

Enlightened Tutor
Dredge
Sneak & Show
Merfolk
RUG Delver
Shardless BUG
Elves
Zombies
Junk
Reanimator
Painter
Goblins

Raven's Crime
UWR Delver
ANT
12 Post
Esper Stoneblade
TES
Charbelcher
UW Miracles
Omni Tell
UR Delver
High Tide

In my opinion (and I don't want this to turn into an argument), I think Punishing Fire builds are trash, which put a lot more emphasis on our graveyards, and is only good against Deathrite Shaman. With all the different archetypes, I feel that its not worth running PF just to stop 4 Decks in the format (which it is not a guarantee anyways). Above is the list of what I think is better against which deck. Any recommendations (cutbert, Phelix)?

If you're dead set on not playing fires, I've been a big fan of playing a version with 3x intuition, 3x tutor and 1x ravens crime. I think that in the matchups where ravens crime shines you're really going to want to board in all of the chalices and trinispheres/Thalias (with the exception of some of the slower control decks where we're just trying to keep them off jace mana). In those matchups having tutor to go get the chalice can be huge. It lets you keep a wider variety of openers and makes you more resiliant against discard. I can't tell you how many games against storm where I've gotten therapied/duressed on turn one only to flip a hand of tutor + chalice. Additionally against these decks if you left in intuition once you've slowed them down with chalice you can always intuition for the crime to keep them from drawing out of the soft lock. Try out one crime and three tutor and see how it feels.

Overall I prefer the tutor version to the punishing fire version, but in Atlanta I knew there was going to be drs all over the place and its the only out we had that doesn't die to abrupt decay.

Good luck in Cincinnati this weekend!

[Anen]

I really miss Thalia

I do too and I was thinking about it: why not switch red for white post board by putting a Savannah and some Thalias in your SB?

[OneBigSquirrelGod]

I do too and I was thinking about it: why not switch red for white post board by putting a Savannah and some Thalias in your SB?

It's already hard enough to cut cards from the SB, let alone adding a dual land to it.

I've played against DRS A lot, and just like Scaveging Ooze, you just have to play around it. I find Cabal Pit is a Miracle Worker for the Main Deck.

@Phelix - I added a 2nd Explosives after Detroit and never looked back. There are too many scenarios where I've killed Rest in Peace, and then been able to kill another one, or something else. I'd almost run 3 (which I have before. It's like an ultimate Removal spot.. ) but there is nowhere to fit it now.

I am going to run E tutor this weekend (I think)... And maybe 1 Crime as well. I just need to find something to cut.

4 Loam
4 Exploration
1 Manabond
3 Intuition
2 Enlightened Tutor
4 Mox Diamond
2 EE
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Zuran Orb
1 Ensnaring bridge
1 Cursed Totem

Manabond comes to mind, but I hate not having more acceleration. 5 doesn't seem to ever get there... Big fan of 6. Ravens crime just shuts JtMS down. I've never beat that card without it (or O Stone/EE). I have considered 1 Torpor Orb in the SB. Very good against elves and goblins hate for us. Just a thought...

[KntrellCL]

You can cut O-Stone, since is your slowest card in the deck. Some player are playing Cabal Pit against DRS, but I dont like to play cards which needs any kind of conditions to work well, especially with ******** (DRS again). How many untapped G sources are you playing? Cause Red version is not only about PFires, it also fix the clunky manabase.

[Phelix]

id probably cut or side the cursed totem. sylvan library, when paired with enlightened tutor is my preference. It gives us alot more versatility, as well as a way to find solutions to everything, and it ignores DRS.

[OneBigSquirrelGod]

I think I'm going to run Nethervoid in the SB over trinisphere. Seems legit. Cannot be abrupt decay'd.. But decay can get through it. Seems like a good idea. And totem shuts off a lot of cards, including DRS. I'll MD it all day. Still may change a few cards, still up in the air... And I love O Stone... I couldn't cut that.. Crucible would be cut first.

[Anen]

I think I'm going to run Nethervoid in the SB over trinisphere. Seems legit. Cannot be abrupt decay'd.. But decay can get through it. Seems like a good idea. And totem shuts off a lot of cards, including DRS. I'll MD it all day. Still may change a few cards, still up in the air... And I love O Stone... I couldn't cut that.. Crucible would be cut first.

I am not sure you will me able to reliably drop Nether Void before it becomes irrelevant to the game. I mean as cool as it is (and I used to run The Abyss in Land for a time) it is a 4 mana enchantment..

[Phelix]

I think I'm going to run Nethervoid in the SB over trinisphere. Seems legit. Cannot be abrupt decay'd.. But decay can get through it. Seems like a good idea. And totem shuts off a lot of cards, including DRS. I'll MD it all day. Crucible would be cut first.



I disagree with almost everything you say here.

What are you basing this on? Nethervoid costs 4, and its black. And how many decks that run decay, do we want trinisphere against anyway?

What 2 critters, aside from DRS do you want the totem for? Elves and Griselbrand activation? I dont think this is the time for it.

cutting crucible is questionable, i would at least play in the board, for those obvious times when you want to take out some loam/intuition deals.

[cuthbertthecat]

I disagree with almost everything you say here.

What are you basing this on? Nethervoid costs 4, and its black. And how many decks that run decay, do we want trinisphere against anyway?

What 2 critters, aside from DRS do you want the totem for? Elves and Griselbrand activation? I dont think this is the time for it.

cutting crucible is questionable, i would at least play in the board, for those obvious times when you want to take out some loam/intuition deals.

While I agree that Nether Void doesn't seem insane, Storm does board into decay which is pretty relevant against trinisphere.

[KntrellCL]

I really like nether void... i used to play it long time ago, but is a 4cmc card.... considering 3phere is already slow i think nether void would be almost irrelevant and lost by that turn

[Stoyrm]

Spells 24
4 Life from the Loam
4 Exploration
3 Intuition
3 Punishing Fire
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Zuran Orb
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Mox Diamond
2 Manabond

Lands 36
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Maze of Ith
3 Tropical Island
3 Tolaria West
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Tranquil Thicket
1 Taiga
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
1 Academy Ruins
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Sideboard
1 Oblivion Stone
2 Krosan Grip
2 Trinisphere
4 Dark Confidant
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Cursed Totem

This is my list as of now. I am a bit unsure of running just three fetches, but i would rather stay at 60 cards, than 61. I want the Bojuka Bog main as it's a nice answer to have against certain decks. On the issue of not having a Crucible in the main deck, i find that the card is at it's best when you're trying to ghost quarter someone out of the game. I believe it's just not necessary, but if i was to add a 61st card to the deck, it would be the crucible. If i were to do so, then my 15th Sideboard card would be another Ensnaring Bridge, it's very good against Sneak Show and other aggro decks, so it's nice to have a second one as i don't have the Enlightened Tutor. I also have some reservations as to whether or not cursed totem is a necessary sideboard card. Yes it stops DRS and Elves. But i'm already playing the card that kills that. I guess you also stop Qasali Pridemage, but i can't see the huge relevance in that. Also; if one puts Crucible in the deck, and you remove the cursed totem, you could switch Bojuka Bog with Urborg and have the Raven's Crime and the Bojuka Bog in the sideboard.

The thing with DRS is that they can just sit and play cantrips their entire game until you die from their Deathrites, and they have answers to all of your permanents like Sylvan, so i'm not a fan of fighting DRS with these types of cards. I'm going to GP Strasbourg, and i think it's going to be quite infested with DRS and Jaces, which i do like having Punishing Fire for :D.

Anyone have any comments? Or if you don't like Punishing Fire, give me a good option for beating DRS. Cabal Pit and double Engineered Explosives, is it enough? I don't want everyone to feel like they are beating a dead horse, but i haven't seen any really convincing arguments for a Enlightened Tutor build that still beats DRS :).

[joemauer]

If you are going to play lands then Punishing Fires seems like an auto include at the moment.

Kills most commonly played creatures except for Gofy; it kills DRS, Delver, Bloodbraid Elf, anything tribal, Bob, Stoneforge Mystic, Grim Lavamancer, and sometimes Ooze.

It also can slow down a ramping Jace.

The only reason I can see for not running it is that the card can cause this deck to be further dependent on the Graveyard. Even if Punishing Fires gets extracted it still kills annoying creatures.

[Serbitar]

The argument with Punishing Fires adding another element of graveyard dependence can be formulated the other way around, too. Punishing Fire helps overloading opposing graveyard hate. I was having a game the other day, in which my Crucible got Thoughtseized and then removed by Relic, my Loams got Extirpated, but Punishing Fires – which is Extirpate-proof by the way, if you play careful (Grove is a mana ability) – still won, blanking a lot of his cards and doubling as the kill.
(But I guess if the hate was Leyline or RIP this would not have happened.)

[KntrellCL]

With or without punishing fires, they are going to use GY hate on G2, so I dont see what are you people whinning about. You need some on MD to keep DRS out of the game.

[Loxmatii]

what do you think about 4 Sphere of resistence in maindeck? i understand, that sphere cant stop shaman. But we can try to put stage(new land from GateCrash) to copy ports and try to play in hard mana denial game

[Phelix]

what do you think about 4 Sphere of resistence in maindeck? i understand, that sphere cant stop shaman. But we can try to put stage(new land from GateCrash) to copy ports and try to play in hard mana denial game

havent tested this.

I know you love lands, as much as me - have you tested it yourself?

[Loxmatii]

havent tested this.

I know you love lands, as much as me - have you tested it yourself?

yeah, i tested a lot. they can solve a lot of problems. i like to play thespian's stage in this list to copy Ports, or wastelands. But unfortunately spheres cant solve shaman problem. if we lost dice a and the begin with turn 1 shaman, only pithing needle and totem can help. and Explosives. but using spheres we dont have an opportunity to find this cards quickly, because we want to strt with sphere on turn 1

so. i am in big depression =((( about all this problems

[LegoEgo]

Hi,
first of all, i am new to the forum (as a member not as a reader) but not new to Legacy as a format or lands in particular and most important i am a Landslover:smile:.
I was playing an E.Tutor/Intuition Variant for a while now but the raising of BUG gave me some headache and the Fires/Willows tech seems like exactly what the deck was needing right now. So im asking myself if we add red for the fires why not giving Gamble another Chance. the only reason for playing tutor over gamble in my opinion was the consistensy in finding exploration/bond but now that white is excluded i think Gamble deserves a try out.
(i havent read the whole thread so i am sorry if this topic was allready exhaustingly discussed.)

[Phelix]

gamble is just so horrible - and you dont need to cut white, just because you add red, if you dont want to.

greed is good.

[LegoEgo]

greed is good.

Well people keep saying that (including myself) but five colors are just to much even for THE Lands deck.
As for Gamble, i think its better than you give it credit for, in this deck it finds you everything mostly without drawback. Most of the time it finds loam, but if you have loam it can find any land, if you have acadamy ruins it finds any artifact, if you have grove but not fires it finds you that as well. It allways finds the missing piece. And if you are in desperate need of something you cant recur somehow, like exploration for example, you can at least gamble to get it.
In other words, in this deck it isnt worse than e.tutor it just deos something else and when there was no real other reason to play red i slightly favored e.tuor but now with fires its a whole diffrent story.

[Serbitar]

I guess the question with Gamble in the Punishing Fires lists is basically: Are you going to cut Intuition for it (because since you are running Fires, there is nothing else to cut)? Intuition is obviously more powerful, albeit slower. Gamble is the better as straight Loams 5-8, I think, but Intuition is more versatile in that it is the less awkward tutor for Exploration. Personally, I cannot really see myself cutting Intuition for Gamble.

[TraxDaMax]

I guess the question with Gamble in the Punishing Fires lists is basically: Are you going to cut Intuition for it (because since you are running Fires, there is nothing else to cut)? Intuition is obviously more powerful, albeit slower. Gamble is the better as straight Loams 5-8, I think, but Intuition is more versatile in that it is the less awkward tutor for Exploration. Personally, I cannot really see myself cutting Intuition for Gamble.

Maybe it could be possible to only run 3/3 fires and grove and 2 gamble that basicly work as any card we want.

[LegoEgo]

Maybe it could be possible to only run 3/3 fires and grove and 2 gamble that basicly work as any card we want.

thats exactly what i was thinking, but i cutted crucible and the fourth fire for 2 gambles. the fourth grove is a taiga in my list. i would test it more but since cockatrice is down and mws sucks, i need some time to evaluate.

[dimignon]

Hi guys,

This is the version I currently playing:

Spells

2 Enlightened tutor
3 Punishing fire
4 Lfe from the loam
3 Intuition
1 Manabond
4 Exploration
1 Zuran orb
4 Mox diamond
1 Engineered explosives
1 Cursed totem
1 Ensnaring bridge
1 Crucible of worlds

Lands

4 Maze of ith
4 Rishadan port
4 Wasteland
3 Tropical island
1 Taiga
1 Savannah
1 Windswept heath
1 Wooded foothills
1 Verdant catacombs
3 Tolaria west
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Tranquil Thicket
1 Stirring wildwood
1 Glacial chasm
1 Ghost quarter
1 The tabernacle at pendrell vale
1 Karakas
1 Academy ruins
1 Forest

Sideboard

4 Geist of saint traft
1 Tormod's crypt
1 Enginnered explosives
1 Chalice of the void
1 Pithing needle
1 Oblivion stone
2 Trinisphere
2 Enlightened tutor
1 Aegis of honor
1 Karmic justice


I prefer run white than black, because I run tutors and bob is a great card, but the field has lots decays, so I prefer geist.

I'm happy with this version, because I can handle with the shamans and jaces.

any thoughts?

[LegoEgo]

Geists are a interesting sideboard tech because they are definitly suprising and can probably win games out of nowhere, but they don´t synergise with the deck gameplan, they are for tempo or aggro strategys. While we play as super slow grindy controle/prison deck where card advantage is everything and thats the reason i´ll allways prefere Dark Confident. But the most important reason for me to play black is creeping tar it, that green white manland is just no proper replacement as a wincon, and im not sure we can rely entirely on the fires.

[TraxDaMax]

thats exactly what i was thinking, but i cutted crucible and the fourth fire for 2 gambles. the fourth grove is a taiga in my list. i would test it more but since cockatrice is down and mws sucks, i need some time to evaluate.

Not sure if cutting Crucible is right, though it is significantly weaker in "Enlightened Tutor"-less versions in my opinion. So it could be the right call.

[Megadeus]

Why no Pithing Needle? I have never played this deck but I think it's really cool and I have been reading the thread for while. Needle shuts down shaman and Jace along with Other random things.

[LegoEgo]

Pithing Needle is a one of in my E.-Tutor Sideboard, well because its tutorable and shuts down Jace and DRS, but if i cut white its much weaker and punishing fire punishes Jace and Deathrite pretty much the same while also slowing aggro and tempo and being a wincon.


Not sure if cutting Crucible is right, though it is significantly weaker in "Enlightened Tutor"-less versions in my opinion. So it could be the right call.
As much as I love crucible it got moved to the board, because in my oppinion it serves two purposes, first it serves as a e.tutorable loam-like effect which is obsolet with red just like with needle, but the second reason is still important, it is an out, if loam gets extirpated/extracted G2 so you can still hope to find crucible to abuse the grave (thats why its still in the board).

btw i will likely play the punishing build in a trial for Strasbourg next week, so if i attend i post some results.

[Stoyrm]

btw i will likely play the punishing build in a trial for Strasbourg next week, so if i attend i post some results.

I will be playing it as well for the GPT Strasbourg here at my local shop. I ended up 3-0-1 at the last tournament i played with Punishing Lands. Won against; Merfolk, TES and Sneak and Show. Lost against Merfolk in the top 4.

[Phelix]

Stoyrm:

would you post your exact list?


Inspired by thoughts stemming from the Geist of Saint traft list:

I have playing around with this list on cockatrice lately:



Tartarus (where the titan were banished to)

3 Life from the Loam
4 Exploration
1 Manabond
4 Wasteland
1 Ghost Quarter
3 Intuition
4 Mox Diamond
4 Rishadan Port
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Forest
2 Windswept Heath
2 Tranquil Thicket
4 Maze of Ith
2 Tolaria West
4 Tropical Island
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Worm Harvest
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Taiga
2 Inferno Titan
2 Primeval Titan
1 Bayou
1 Chalice of the Void

SB: 2 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 Crucible of Worlds
SB: 3 Trinisphere
SB: 1 Zuran Orb
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 Dark Confidant


This isnt something I tested to perfection, but i have played 50+games.


6 Mana is easy peasy with this deck, and the titans are super silly here.

Red titan solves many problems for us, including planeswalkers, Deathrite shaman. Green titans is bananas.
When playing vs jund/bug etc, they usually have very few outs to resolved titan, only some builds w. pulse can kill it.

Titans die to swords to plowshares, but I cant remember a metagame in legacy with less swords!

The deck semi punts to storm combo, but is suprisingly good vs rest of field. Its less graveyard dependant than other builds.


Would love if others cared to test this build too.

Stats from last batch of games:
cephalid breakfest 1-0
Other decks 2-1
elves 2-0
maverick 1-0
goblins 1-0
jund 1-0
12 post 1-0
ANT 1-0

[Stoyrm]

The GPT was surprisingly small (aka 8 people), i had 2 byes from last year, but i still got my third :).

My decklist :).
3 Intuition
3 Punishing Fire

4 Life from the Loam

4 Mox Diamond
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Zuran Orb
1 Ensnaring Bridge

4 Exploration
2 Manabond

4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Maze of Ith
3 Tolaria West
3 Tropical Island
/2 Misty Rainforest
2 Tranquil Thicket
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Taiga
1 Bayou
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Academy Ruins
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Forest
1 Glacial Chasm
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Sideboard: 15
4 Dark Confidant
2 Krosan Grip
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Pithing Needle
2 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Crucible of Worlds

It worked out quite decently, Deathrite Shaman isn't really an issue, however Rest in Peace is still teeerrible for us. I think the idea of Volrath's Stronghold is a cute one :). Hope it works out! I think that Lands is really not a deck i'd want to take out to a GP right now, the Rest in Peace can be reaaally hard to beat, Deathrite is okay if you have the answers. However, i do like the thought of playing Titans xD!

[bartmanqc]

Would love if others cared to test this build too.


Hey Phelix, I will try something similar tommorow with the Primeval Titan. However, I'm not sure about the Inferno Titan. I think I'll just stick with the Punishing Fire/Grove of the burnwillows for now.

I've been trying to put Jace, the Mind Sculptor into my lands deck for a while now. I just love that card so much. Maybe you should try it instead of the titans. It can also act as a secondary engine for the deck beside lftl. It isn't affected by the yard hate, but it's a bit akwark that you can't protect it under Glacial chasm. Have you tried it?

[LegoEgo]

As much as i love Primeval Tiatan, what problems does he solve, we allreday have great matchups against decks he is good against same goes for Jace, and Punishing Fire deals with DRS and walkers way better then Inferno Titan.
The question is: Why improve matchups we allready win? I´m thinking a lot about Confident latley because he is, like the Titans best in the favored matches, well he is allways good, which makes him better then the titans but still, is he necessary.
We should win against every fair deck, but struggle against: ANT, TES, Spiraltide, Omnitell (and to a lesser extent Sneak n Tell), Tinfin (and have a not so good matchup against normal Reanimater), UWx Helm+ RIP Combo (and every other deck wich can board in RIP, which normaly are UWx controle decks)
So I think about a all - hate board, cutting everything unnecessary including Confis.
And that looks like this:

4x Chalice of the Void (Stormhate, but also good against Tinfin, Reanimater and RUG/BUG-Delver)
1x Trinisphere (Stormhate)
2x Mindbreak Trap (Stormhate, also good against Tinfin and to a lesser extent Show an Tell Decks)

1x Engineered Explosives (RIP-Hate, but also good against RUG/BUG/Zoo and other Aggro stuff)
2x Krosan Grip (RIP-Hate, usefull against Omnitell and Enchantress)

1x Tormod´s Crypt (Gravehate against TinFin, Reanimater, Dredge)
2x Extirpate (Gravehate against TinFin, Reanimater, Dredge (boardable against Storm and some other decks))

1x Raven´s Crime (good against controle, tutorable via Gamble, is discussable but i like it)
1x Crucible of the Worlds (Anti-Spot-Gravehate)

All in all there are 7x Stormhate (+1x MD), 9x Tinfinhate (+1x MD + Maze), 3x Reanimaterhate (+3x MD + Maze), 4x Pseudo Omnitellhate (+1x MD), 2x Sneak and Tell Hate (+2x MD + Maze), 3x RIP-Hate (+1x MD), 2x Other

After Testing: Storm and Tinfin: Preb. 95/05 , Postb. 50/50
Spiraltide: Preb. 100/0 , Postb. 60/40
Reanimater: Preb. 60/40 , Postb. 40/60
Omnitell: Preb. 95/05 , Postb. 80/20
Sneak n Tell: Preb. 70/30 , Postb. 65/35
RIP Helm: Preb. 60/40 , Postb. 50/50
UWx Controle: Preb. 40/60 , Postb. 50/50

Omnitell and Spiraltide are allmost unwinnable and if we dont tweak the whole board against those that won´t change. But in Legacy no deck can cover all fronts, so thats ok.

[Phelix]

LegoEgo: the percentages are your estimates, or do you have data supporting this?

Do you feel ensnaring bridge isnt good enough?


also, what maindeck list do you play this with? you apparently play gamble?

[LegoEgo]

4x Chalice of the Void
1x Trinisphere
2x Mindbreak Trap
1x Engineered Explosives
2x Krosan Grip
1x Tormod´s Crypt
2x Extirpate
1x Raven´s Crime
1x Crucible of the Worlds

After Testing: Storm and Tinfin: Preb. 95/05 , Postb. 50/50
Spiraltide: Preb. 100/0 , Postb. 60/40
Reanimater: Preb. 60/40 , Postb. 40/60
Omnitell: Preb. 95/05 , Postb. 80/20
Sneak n Tell: Preb. 70/30 , Postb. 65/35
RIP Helm: Preb. 60/40 , Postb. 50/50
UWx Controle: Preb. 40/60 , Postb. 50/50



LegoEgo: the percentages are your estimates, or do you have data supporting this?


Part of these Percentages are estimated some are backed up by data. But i can go into more detail to reason those assumptions.(Most of my experience i got from my E.Tutor build but against most unfair decks there isnt much diffrence.)

Storm (ANT/TES): I have played alot against storm because at my local store there are some of those.
Preboard the best thing you can do is find a Zuran Orb fast and hope he cant deal enough damage. Or if he has a slow start you can try to beat him with Creeping Tar Pit, so Ad Nuseum cant draw that much, but thats very unlikly and happend only ones to me. If they dont know what you are playing they probably go for the goblin plan then the odds are quite good but normaly they go for tendrils. So there are like 1,5 outs which brings me to 95/05
Postboard in my E. Tutor build i have 3x Chalice + 2x Ethersworn Cannonist +1x Trinisphere, And with this i had odds like 60/40 and with the traps the additional chalice and the extirpates i think the odds will be slightly better like 55/45 or 50/50

Belcher: I hadnt Belcher in the origanal list because i never lost a match vs belcher realy never ever but thats probably not representative.
Sure if the go first turn Belcher+ activation you are dead. But most of the time they go either for the Goblins or play Belcher and cant activate it directly. In the first case I allways manage to get Tabernacle someway (or Bridge/EE), in the second case you can waste him and blow up his moxen or try to get rid of belcher. Thats not perfect but you have something like 65/35. And when you bring in the additional stormhate + the additional EE you are maybe at 50/50-45/55

Tinfin: I played 6 games recently on cockatrice against Tinfin. And i lost the first and wonn all other five (with board). First game he goes Dark Ritual- Entomb (Griselbrand)- groyos Vengeance-Game. (Even if they dont go crazy first turn the only possibility we have MB are Maze and Karakas and if the have griselbrand that probably isnt going to work, because they can still go storm or attack with emrakul). Second game I bring in all the hate and keep Land-Chalice-Mindbreak Trap- 4 other cards, i pla land and he goes again first turn Lotus Patel- Dark Ritual- Entomb- (Gryos Vengeance) but I counter his entomb, then we play some turns i find the second land and play chalice 1 and beat him with creeping taar pit until he scoops. Next game i keep Trap-2xChalice-2xLand-1x Tolaria west-1xMox Diamand, he goes land- Thoughtseize hits trap - Petal- Cabal Therapy- strips me of the chalices, and i think im done but he needs some cards to go of so i draw another Land and transmute Tolaria for Chalice, play Chalice and he scoops. There was another game i won with Mazes and another i didnt remember but i think its pretty clear that we have so much hate (because of the combination of the reanimator- and the stormhate) that its pretty much impossible to have none in hand, so the postboard- odds are probably 50/50-40/60

Spiraltide: I have a bro who plays Spiraltide because he likes to see his opponents bore to death (pretty much the same reason I play Lands :wink:), but I played some games against him and there is juat no way winning game one. Well i played against Tide in a big event (Hanau Germany) and won 2-0 but thats not suppose to happen (and it was the only time). Normally the only out is having Academy Ruins and hope he cant mill you and let you draw in the same turn (which exactly how i won that game first game in Hanau), but that works 1 out of 100 or so and because Spiraltide players tend to play a 30 min first game theres no way for Lands to win another two games. You can scoop the moment you realize he play Tide but i like to see if the fizzel or not, because Spiraltide is a bit harder to play than ANT/TES and fizzels quite a lot. But even in the second game a good Spiraltide player can play around the hate way better than ANT/TES
(Counter Backup/Wishboard)

Reanimater: I went 4-1 remembering the last 5 reanimater matches but i think the odds are a bit worse than those numbers indicate. I mean Maze, Karakas, Bajuka Bog are the Bomb here, but if they go first or second turn Griselbrand they normally draw enough answers.

Thats enough for now I edit probably the rest tomorrow.



also, what maindeck list do you play this with? you apparently play gamble?
My current List is now in my sig.

[Resist_Temptation]

I played this in a 1k event in Michigan with about 40 people, and I went a not so awesome 3-3. My rounds went
Round 1 - RW Painters Servant, that boards into MUD stompy. 2-0
Round 2 - Dredge. 0-2
Round 3 - BG Trainwreck. 1-2
Round 4 - Mono Blue Delver. (this deck also abused Nivmagus Elemental) 2-0
Round 5 - Punishing Maverick. 0-2
Round 6 - Opponent did not want to play the round. Apparently he was playing a very greedy manabase with his control deck and had enough before we started.

The deck played well, and for reference I was playing a raven's crime list, and raven's crime was absolutely terrible today. Def made a poor meta game call on this one. Wish I was playing an enlightened tutor list. Some highlights of the event were that Dredge got ridic lucky to beat me game one the turn before I go get bog to lock him out of the game, and game 2 he kills me turn 1 before I am able to get my turn 2 tormod's crypt in play. Trainwreck was a fun match. I beat him down to 6 in the last game, and lost to him drawing a pernicious deed to stop my tarpit beats, and then also having the mana to play a helldozer...all the while having a leyline of the void in play. I made some mistakes in this round, but it was really fun. Punishing maverick was a good matchup, but I just could not find enough interaction with him. He found 2 qasali pridemage both games as well as multiple scav ooze. Game 2 I thought I had the game locked up, but he green suns for a teeg and my E.e recursion looks a little silly. I think that I will be giving the tutor build some practice in the future, and as always I had a blast playing the deck.

[lithiux]

Lands is on the stream in round 6 of the SCG Legacy Open, and just dumpstered a RUG Delver player game one. Cedric Phillips: lovin' it.

[Fade]

Thoughts on running a version of the deck with 4 Chalice of the Void main? I ran it at a local event and it seemed pretty good giving me game against tin fins and sneak and show. Also can incorporate a punishing fire sub-theme to the deck.

[GoldenCid]

The deck played well, and for reference I was playing a raven's crime list, and raven's crime was absolutely terrible today.

I had the same sensation too. I'm testing, not hardly, a GUb lands with 3 ravens main deck. I think the card is great against hide tide but we do need it early to make it worth. This is what i saw. Raven is huge if we have it in t1 - t2 or if the opo is downstream. Maybe its play is the side.
What i like about black verions is the access to bob and decay!

GC.

[Anen]

Lands is on the stream in round 6 of the SCG Legacy Open, and just dumpstered a RUG Delver player game one. Cedric Phillips: lovin' it.

RUG Player was really bad, not worth watching the replay.. Except maybe to see foil Ports ^^
G1. He didn't daze the loam that was about to get Glacial Chasm. He didn't daze his Delver to get the last point of damage with Tarmogoyf. He fetched 2 Trop and got stuck with a Forked Bolt in hand.
G2. He miss Delver trigger like 5 times drawing instants and sorceries.
G3. He wasted Rishadan Port instead of the Tar Pit (not sure if it is very relevant since almost all rug deck was lock by chalices @1 & @2)

And Lands placed top 8 :)

[Corrosion]

Hello everyone,

If your interested I've made a report of my time at Kansas City and my run to top eight: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25770-SCG-Open-Kansas-City-Top-8-Report-For-Lands&p=712685#post712685

Check it out if your interested.

[entity]

Hi all,

I'm finishing my Lands deck (UBGr with Punishing Fire), and want to ask, what's our gameplan vs Burn/RDW? There are quite a few of them locally, and beating them is kinda important if I want to succeed at local tournaments :) Getting Zuran Orb should probably be a priority task, but what then? Also, what sideboard options do we have that would be useful in other matchups too?

[LegoEgo]

Hi all,

what's our gameplan vs Burn/RDW?

You´re right Zuran Orb is priority number one if you have it you probably win but you need it fast or you just die. Sideboard is mostly Chalice and to some extent Trini and (EE if he plays creatures). Chalice 1 is da bomb. But in any case you´ll need the Orb even if its just for escaping price of progress.

PS: Sorry that i still havnt finished my analysis by now but im kind of busy :)

[Phelix]

if there is alot of burn in your meta, considering play 4 leyline of sanctity in the board, and add at least one chalice to the maindeck, as its tutorable with tolaria west.

[ESG]

If you play Enlightened Tutor, you could run Circle of Protection: Red. I wouldn't recommend this for a large event, but if you know your local event has Burn players, then there's no better hoser. The other posters' suggestions are also good, although I find that Burn often sideboards in Smash to Smithereens or Shattering Spree, both of which are quite good at punching through Chalice of the Void or Zuran Orb. In my experience, Trinisphere was too slow on the draw to greatly swing the matchup. I preferred more direct hosers. If you're heavy in blue, you might also experiment with Chill, which comes down faster than Trinisphere and is basically one-sided. (Trinisphere obviously is superior in other situations, such as versus Storm.)

[Oreia]

Hi all,

what's our gameplan vs Burn/RDW?

Hey man, i've been playing lands for about two and a half years and played through a LOT of Burn decks(and also a lot of different list, by i lot i mean 10+ haha) and my main strategy is:

Control the game without giving your opponent realizing that, and the easyest way to do that is by porting them over and over, recurring Explosives to clear their board and make their hand the only resource.

Another way i like to play against monored is "winning in the last minute", i mean, sometimes your opponent realizes you are locking them and just concede so he can sideboard a lot of stuff that ruins your gameplan(or at least that's what he thinks), but, if your opponent wants to see your kill condition, you try to intuition for Ghost Quarter, Tolaria West and another thing you might want, so you can start the Ghost Quarter plan while you have a T. West tutor(probably zuran orb) to cover your back if you really need.

Resuming: Try to make the first one last as long as possible, so your opponent can't bring in his Sulfuric Vortex and Smash to Smithereens, and , of course, hope he doens't draw multiple Price of progress before you can star the soft/hard lock. Good luck next yime you play against burn!

[Resist_Temptation]

In the meta as it stands now, should we be playing with abrupt decay over krosan grip? I understand most of the pro's and con's, but felt like krosan grip was better. Is having the ability to hit deathrite make it that worthwhile? Unless there is some other non-enchantment/artifact hate card that abrupt decay would help with?

[LegoEgo]

Checking in to report my results from the Strasbourg Grand Prix, where i played Lands, kicked ass and made day two (7:2), then sadly got my ass kicked :)

R1: I had a bye which I didnt knew till then, pleasent suprise
R2: Death and Taxes: Won 2-0
G1:
I keep something like Loam, Fetch, 2x Maze, Mox Diamand and something else, solid hand. He starts with Plains into Vial, i start with fetch, Mox, Loam dont know what hes playing yet, he goes plains Stoneforge then yada yada I have 3x Maze in play Loam in grave no cards karakas in hand he had hit me to elven with Batterskull but im save for now with the Mazes but he pressures me still, then i find Manabond and stabilize more every turn by vomitting three Lands, then he playes Karakas and Mangara, i directly find my Karakas while his Mangara is still sick, and Legend Rule it away. Then I just lock him he could have saced his Mangara to destroy my bond, but I think he didnt realize that it was this cardadvantage thats killing him, and hes to greedy to use Mangara without Karakas.
Board: +2x Krosan Grip (cause i expect RIP), + Crucible (because I allways board it G2), EE (cause... hmm he plays Vial and Creatures)
-1x Bojuka Bog, -2x Rishadan Port, -1x Forest, I nearly allways board out the Forest :)
G2:
Dont remember much just that i kept a hand with Krosan Grip and Loam and he dropped turn 2 RIP and i turn 3 Grip damn that felt great. Then the deck did his thing and i crushed him

R3: UW Landstill Won 2-0
G1:
I keep double Waste, Gamble, Fetch, something, Gamble for Loam and do my thing not much to tell you about, I just didnt get what he was playing cause he didnt do anything, after the Game i find out his deck is just super bad against me, thats the reason he couldnt do a thing, honestly i thought UW Landstill was dead, but whatever, winning with manlands against Lands not gonna happen:tongue:
Board: +2x Krosan Grip, +1x Crucible
G2:
Nothing interesting happend, just turn two RIP turn three Grip XD


R4: RUG Lost 0-2 wtf!!!
That was super depressing, one of my best matchups and he crushed me good. I dont know how, but both Games he manged a fast start with turn 1 Mongoose then countered my acceleration and drew enough lands to stay in Game but he always had counters for the things that would have saved me like loam or bridge both games he had 3+ counters and I lost to his tempo, thats just about it, he got super lucky nut draws, against my ok-good hands.
Board: Against RUG i allways board +4x Chalice (because they kill them),+1x Crucible (because they allways board Surgical Extractions and if they hit Loam,
Crucible is da shit), +1x EE (because it hits everything they have)
-1x Karakas,-1x Bojuka Bog,-1x Forest,-1x Grove of the Burnwillows,-2 Rishadan Port

R5: Reanimater Won 2-0
G1:
he fetches U-Sea and Ponder, I nail him on reanimater, when the fetch U-Sea its allways Reanimater^^, well i have Bojuka Bog and Maze, so im pretty confident, he dupms some fattys with Carefull Study i think but doesnt reanimate right away, so i play Bojuka Bog (harharhar), but next turn he can goes entomb into exhume, i think it was Eona on green cause i allready loamed, meh but i have Maze in hand to buy me time, but the soon after i find Tolaria, transmute for Karakas and then waste him out.
Board: +4x Chalice (because it counters cantrips, counters, Reanimate and Entomb and well thats about his deck isnt it), +2x Extirpate,+1x Tormods Crypt
(obvious gravehate is obvious),
-2x Grove of the Burnwillows, -2x Punishing Fire,-1x Forest (Punishing fire just does nothing against Combo... yes reanimater is some kind of Combo),
-1x Rishadan Port, -1x EE
G2:
I keep 1xExtirpate, 2x Chalice, 2xMox, 2x Lands hes on the play, plays fetch and fetches for Island, i draw Land, play Land Mox, Mox, Extirpate Fetchland see his hand: no counter, Brainstorm, Show and Tell and some fattie, Entomb and random stuff i dont remember, I play Chalice One, he brainstorms and it resolves.
Then he does nothing I find gamble into Loam Ramp myself to six mana while keeping him of three then drop Chalice for three (show and tell) aka GAME.

R6: Sneak and Tell Lost 0-2
G1: Turn one Fetch Island Ponder, and I knew shit Show and Tell (the only decks fetching for Island first pririoty are Show and Tell and High Tide). My hand was great but not against S/T, i directly try to find Karakas and play loam and Dredge with cycling, he plays second turn S/T Emrakul, Dredge two more times but find nothing, and Emrakul kills me suprise, suprise
Board: +4x Chalice, +3x Mindbreak Trap,+1x Crucible
G2:
Pretty much the same, i dont have direct hate after mulliganing to six try it either way and again turn two emrakul. Should have mulliganed more aggressivly, cause i felt the whole time it was winnable but whateverUW Landstill Won 2-0

I need to win three in a row now sigh

R7: TES Won 2-1
G1:
One of my worst matchups, i feared for the worst and lost the first game fast even after i wasted him out.
Board:+4x Chalice, +3x Mindbreak Trap, +1x Crypt, +1x Trinisphere, +2x Extirpate
G2:
I keep a hand with Mindbreak Trap, and Gamble, Mox Land and Glacial Chasm, Loam, the only time i misplayed with Gamble didnt do good work but, i gambled to high, played Land, played Mox discard Chasm, and Gamble for Chalice, discard Trap :( . His turn he goes for 14 Goblins, he didnt read Chasm, thought it was Maze lol. I draw land play Loam for Chasm play chasm sac land. Then i pay upkeep 3 times finding more Lands including Tolaria, Transmute for Tabernacle. GAME
G3:
I dropped first turn Exploration and Chalice, then Intuition for Loam, Ruins and Trinisphere, manage to play Trinisphere and... GAME

R8:MUD Won 2-1
G1:
He started with Ancient Tomb and I think fuck S/T, but dropped Chalice instead and I was super relieved. MUD has the wackiest manabase ever so i just start wasting him and dont care much about him dropping Metalworker, i mean what can he play at most Wurmcoil? i dont care, i have Loam, Waste, maze and Tolaria, so what, but he has five cards all of them artifacts, one of them a land he drops the land and with his remaining Land he has 12 mana and plays Blightsteel Coloss, i can play Maze but his remaining land was Waste so Im drawing dead. That was a shock but I go on^^.
Board: +2 Krosan Grip, +1x EE, +1x Crucible
G2:
He plays Sol Land into Grim Monolith, I play something like Land Exploration Gamble into Loam. He plays Land and Lodestone Golem, I find Wasteland and start wasting he manages to drop anather Worker + next turn Kuldotha Forgemaster, I drop Tabernacle and burn his Worker... GAME
G3:
He was a nice guy but he slow played this one. I locked him out pretty fast and he stared at his hand for 3 minutes, then i played super fast just fetched for Creeping Taar Pit and just drawed and attacked every turn because he wouldnt stop slow playing and there where only 8 minutes left but finnaly i just beat him to death, that was pretty exhausting.

So onto the last game for the day.

R9: UR Delver: Won 2-0
G1:
Tough Matchup with a lot of burn and price of progress. But i start with Zuran orb in starting hand and just dodge every burn and waste/ghostquater him pretty fast he has no basics left at the end, it was brutal, because he just didnt want to concede.
Board:+4x Chalice, +1x Crucible, +1x EE
G2:
Fast transmute for Zuran Orb, then pretty much the same like the first game


Conclusion: Gamble was great and I allways was happy to have it, even fetched an exploration once after I got 8 cards (through Goblin Guide). Just loved it
Board is great but Extirpate was underwhelming (I just had it i the board because I expected lot of TinFins but didnt even see one), the get moved
out, Krosan Grip was great it did exactly what it was supposed to do destroy RIP, probably put another one in.

Sidenote: I consider my game on this day pretty good I played so fast I never got to Time Out not once.

Thats all for today next time i report from the devastating day two (where I made stupid mistakes and faced lucky opponents).

Day two:

after day one I was super tired but ignored it and cubed till 2:00 then got to hotel at 3:00 and woke up at 8:00 I think I played that shitty on day two because I was so super exhausted -_-

R10: ANT Lost 0-2
G1:
Well bad matchup is bad, I realize it fast and fetch Zuran Orb, waste him twice but he still goes off and Past in fFames into Tendrils nothing to be done.
Board: all the hate
G2:
here is were the crap play begins, I draw a perfect hand against any other deck but no hate so mulligan, pretty much the same hand but with Mindbreak Trap, I dont want to go to five which I should have, play first and he duresses the trap on his turn then goes off the next turn :frown:

R11: Shardless BUG Controle Lost 0-2
G1:
good matchup but I dont know like in each game that day I should have mulliganed, I keep a stupid do-nothing-hand with manabond, double rishadan port, and four other lands, directly after I say keep I regret it. Well the hand does nothing he drops Jace fateseal-fateseal-fateseal... GAME
Board: +1x Crucible, +1x EE
G2:
Same as before I draw a bad hand mulligan and keep an equally bad hand instead of going to five. Same thing as before, but i can defend myself a little longer, like burn deathrite, but he has extraction on Fire then Jace+ Lily and yada yada I´m fatesealed away.

Now I´m depressed, need to win five games in a row, and I realize i kept bad hands.

R12: BUG Delver Lost 0-2
G1:
Again I keep a medicore hand I have no idea why... he has a fast hand with first turn Deathrite, i play first turn Manabond which I shouldnt because they allways have Daze, ALLWAYS!!! he dazes it, I try to find Fires, but dont and then just lose to deathrite... this shouldnt happen anymore.
Board: you know what :)
G2:
He has DRS, I have Fires he has Extraction, I waste him but he draws a land every turn, then plays Goyf and the turn I would lock him out Tombstalker, and has something like triple counter backup, I dont know what it is but those Delver players allways have 2+ counters against me.

Then I dropped cause I was tired and depressed. The lesson is: there are a lot of keepable hands when you play Lands, but that deosnt mean you should keep all of them :wink:

I won a Chaos Draft afterwards and sold my Revised Booster for 30€ which cheered me up.

Later that day I played annother Game of Legacy in an K.O. Side Event against Combo Elves which I also lost. My deck just hated me that day or I lost my skll.
But a mate of me had great success in the Legacy super Sunday Series with his E.-Tutor Lands, probably only one Lands player at a time can be successful :really:

[Serbitar]

Hey – congrats on day 2 – sad I didn't see you in action there :) Do you mind sharing your list? It sounds like you are on Punishing Fire and cut Intuitions for Gambles?

[Julian23]

Congrats on your performance with maybe the coolest deck of the tournament. I think I was sitting right next to you during your R5 match against Reanimator, we had a conversation about Tabernacle triggers and such, didn't we?

[jafar]

Congratz LegoEgo

which is you list? I'm learnign those days playing this deck and a lot of deckbuilding choices are so difficult for a neewbie! :smile:

Thx
Bye

[Phelix]

well done -was looking for you on day two, hearing someone made it w. lands. but couldnt find you.

[LegoEgo]

Congrats on your performance with maybe the coolest deck of the tournament. I think I was sitting right next to you during your R5 match against Reanimator, we had a conversation about Tabernacle triggers and such, didn't we?

Yes we did, I remember that and I think it is how you said, that Tabernacle Trigger is the responsibility of the opponent because his creatures get the ability, but I still need a good judge to confirm it.


Congratz LegoEgo

which is you list? I'm learnign those days playing this deck and a lot of deckbuilding choices are so difficult for a neewbie! :smile:



Hey – congrats on day 2 – sad I didn't see you in action there :) Do you mind sharing your list? It sounds like you are on Punishing Fire and cut Intuitions for Gambles?

Thx for the Congratulations:
here is the List i played

1 Windswept Heath
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Wasteland
1 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm (I only used it once (against TES) because it´s like they say, if you play the deck right you dont need it, I think I never played that focused)
3 Maze of Ith
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Rishadan Port
3 Tolaria West
2 Tranquil Thicket
3 Tropical Island
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Mox Diamond
1 Zuran Orb
4 Exploration
2 Manabond
3 Intuition
4 Life from the Loam
3 Punishing Fire
3 Grove of the Burnwillows (I think I have enough tutors to confidently cut one and move Crucible back in its place)
1 Taiga
2 Gamble (did great, to have that many tutor options makes the deck so damn consitent)

SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 Trinisphere
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Crucible of Worlds (board it every game as grave hate conter, probably get moved back to main)
SB: 2 Extirpate (underperformed -2)
SB: 3 Mindbreak Trap (underperformed but they get another chance -1)
SB: 2 Krosan Grip (performed great probably +1, or +1 Abrupt Decay)

Im thinking abaut moving Bob back in at least 3-4x or instead 3-4x S/T hate

(Theres is another version with 4x Chalice mainboard I try at the next local tournement)

[GoldenCid]

SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 Trinisphere
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Crucible of Worlds (board it every game as grave hate conter, probably get moved back to main)
SB: 2 Extirpate (underperformed -2)
SB: 3 Mindbreak Trap (underperformed but they get another chance -1)
SB: 2 Krosan Grip (performed great probably +1, or +1 Abrupt Decay)

Im thinking abaut moving Bob back in at least 3-4x or instead 3-4x S/T hate

(Theres is another version with 4x Chalice mainboard I try at the next local tournement)

Grongrats once more!!!

Some side questions:

Why did you cut bob?

Why grip over decay?

Thx

GC.

[LegoEgo]

Some side questions:

Why did you cut bob?

Why grip over decay?


I explained some sites before that I cut bob because as good as he is, he deosnt help against the decks which are our worst matchups, so I decided for an all hate board.
Grip over Decay is simple, its a mana issue, you allways have green mana but black is normally the third color I fetch because I only need it for tar pit, and the one mana more is no big deal. There are only two reasons to play decay over Grip DRS and Counter Balance, against DRS there is Fire, and if they have CB they need to reveal the 3 lucky from the top thats a chance I take.

[GoldenCid]

I explained some sites before that I cut bob because as good as he is, he deosnt help against the decks which are our worst matchups, so I decided for an all hate board.

Well maybe against combo he does not, but against control where we need fuel to avercome the countermagic i think he does.


Grip over Decay is simple, its a mana issue, you allways have green mana but black is normally the third color I fetch because I only need it for tar pit, and the one mana more is no big deal. There are only two reasons to play decay over Grip DRS and Counter Balance, against DRS there is Fire, and if they have CB they need to reveal the 3 lucky from the top thats a chance I take.

Partial credit :tongue:
With 4 mox, bayou and fechts / tolaria i can get every color i need. But i admit that sometimes it can be a little hard.

GC

[LegoEgo]

Well maybe against combo he does not, but against control where we need fuel to avercome the countermagic i think he does.GC

Yeah well its like this, I didnt want to cut combo hate, but wanted Krosan Grip (against RIP) and wanted Extirpate (because I expected a lot of TinFins which werent there), so confis needed to go but hes definitly the first thing that moves back in when I cut something else.




Partial credit :tongue:
With 4 mox, bayou and fechts / tolaria i can get every color i need. But i admit that sometimes it can be a little hard.

GC

I didnt say you dont get all your colors but, since I first fetch Tropical and second Taiga/Savannah (depending on the build) the black mana doesnt come as easy, I just chose consistensy over flexibility, but I think its a decesion of personal taste.

[LegoEgo]

heres another list I´m working on to improve the combo matchups I´m having first success crushing comboplayers on cockatrice and will bring this to my next local tournement

1 Windswept Heath
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Wasteland
1 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm
3 Maze of Ith
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Rishadan Port
3 Tolaria West
1 Tranquil Thicket
3 Tropical Island
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Mox Diamond
1 Zuran Orb
4 Exploration
1 Manabond
3 Intuition
4 Life from the Loam
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Trinisphere
3 Sphere of Resistance
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 4 Dark Confidant

I just squeezed in some sphere effects which are also good against a lot of other decks (RUG, BUG, Reanimater,...), the drawback is you need to be very careful with the Tar Pit since its your only wincon (not counting decking cause thats crap), so if I´m expecting swords i wait for my Orb before attacking.
I dont know how usefull it is now against a variety of decks so theres still some testing to do, but I´m confident

[GoldenCid]

I'm working on a UGwb lands. Cursed totem is great!

[LegoEgo]

I'm working on a UGwb lands. Cursed totem is great!

There are allready fully developed E.-Tutor builds, i would check them out if you havent yet, or is there some other route you want to go

[GoldenCid]

There are allready fully developed E.-Tutor builds, i would check them out if you havent yet, or is there some other route you want to go

Didnt get what you mean.
CT is also included in lands decklist.

[LegoEgo]

Didnt get what you mean.
CT is also included in lands decklist.

I meant, if you say you work on an UGwb list, does it mean you want to build a new variante or do want to go with a classic E.-Tutor build, because E.tutor Lands is a allready fully develloped UGwb list which many people tweaked to near perfection.

[GoldenCid]

Could you share one of those near perfect list? I searched in tcdecks.com for some but couldnt get an actualized one.

[LegoEgo]

Could you share one of those near perfect list? I searched in tcdecks.com for some but couldnt get an actualized one.

this is the list I played for a good while before switching to punishing fires build which I think is better now because of the printing of DRS and the need to deal with it, there are some flex slots decided by personal taste. But I would definitly fit in a Cursed Totem somewhere in the 75 mostly because of DRS but as you sure realized it shuts down a lot other stuff mainly maverick.
You can also fit in three-four Ravens Crime+ Uborg, Tomb of Yawghmoth. Some like it as Anti Combo tech, but I think its too clunky to be really usefull, but against control its ok.

1 Windswept Heath
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Wasteland
1 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 Forest
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Maze of Ith
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Rishadan Port
3 Tolaria West
2 Tranquil Thicket
3 Tropical Island
1 Smokestack (the most flexible slot some play Oblivion Stone, some Cursed Totem, some the second EE, and few like themself a Mindslaver in that spot)
3 Enlightened Tutor (you can play only two and play another toolbox piece)
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Mox Diamond
1 Zuran Orb
4 Exploration
2 Manabond (you can play one less because you play three E.-Tutors but i dont reommend it because together with the Loam they (Bonds+Explorations) are key)
3 Intuition
4 Life from the Loam
1 Horizon Canopy (another flex slot can be a third Thicket or one of the above mentioned artifacts, but I like it because its better with crucible then Thicket and fixes white but the damage can be a problem)

SB: 4 Dark Confidant
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 Trinisphere
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Krosan Grip

[KntrellCL]

Raven's crime doesnt help that much on the Combo matchup, also... Cursed Totem is weak against decks with DRS because is going to be almost the only target for their Abrupt Decays. Im not fan of using cards like chalice or sphere of resistance main, because Lands is trying to aproach the match with cards the oponente cant deal with... so, using any other cards would give more value to their spells.

Im playing a 5c Lands

4 Life from the Loam
4 Exploration
2 Manabond
3 Intuition
4 Punishing Fire
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Zuran Orb
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Mox Diamond
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Maze of Ith
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Tranquil Thicket
3 Tolaria West
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
1 Academy Ruins
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

SB

4 Dark Confidant
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Krosan Grip
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Engineered Explosives


I really really like Thalia, it gives me 7 second game beaters and 7 taxes effect (thalia and chalice) on T1. Im been thinking of cutting off the Crucible of Worlds since I cant fetch it and Krosan Grip is so damn good against Omnitell MU and UW RIP. Abrupt decay is also good, but using 5 Colors... the first fetch is pretty important (going B for decay and bob or going W for thalia)...but maybe in 4c lands it would be better.

[LegoEgo]

Raven's crime doesnt help that much on the Combo matchup, also... Cursed Totem is weak against decks with DRS because is going to be almost the only target for their Abrupt Decays. Im not fan of using cards like chalice or sphere of resistance main, because Lands is trying to aproach the match with cards the oponente cant deal with... so, using any other cards would give more value to their spells.

First you dont play the sphere effects to beat BUG (and its true that matchup gets a little harder but not so much) you play them to beat storm and that they are good against other decks is just a bonus (aka justifys main deck), also dies to Decay isnt a great argument, so does Exploration and we need that thing way more than any sphere or totem so if they play it on that they dont hit exploration and thats a good thing. Not every deck plays Decay, just the various BUG decks and Jund (which is a pretty good matchup) and they only have so much Decays (which is the only main deck played card that deals with artifacts and echantments) and I plan to play 8 sphere effects thats more than enough for 4 Decays, and I plan to play them in the spot of other artifacts anyway, and dont forget Acadamy Ruins.
I just want to try, I dont say its da bomb. (have you tried using sphere effects?)




I really really like Thalia, it gives me 7 second game beaters and 7 taxes effect (thalia and chalice) on T1. Im been thinking of cutting off the Crucible of Worlds since I cant fetch it and Krosan Grip is so damn good against Omnitell MU and UW RIP. Abrupt decay is also good, but using 5 Colors... the first fetch is pretty important (going B for decay and bob or going W for thalia)...but maybe in 4c lands it would be better.

I see you play 4 Groves and 4 Fires why dont you cut one each and play 2x E.Tutor or 2x Gambles (which I recommend :smile:)
Does Thalia really justify a fifth color (and the inconsistency that comes with it)

[KntrellCL]

I know sphere is for combo match up, but it would be a bad match up anyway... so why make your MD worse against match up you can win almost every time and dont you leave your entire sideboard for combo. Sorry, but Im not agree with you on the bug and jund match up, especially against BUG. In this match up, you prefer to see a grove fire engine which controls almost the entire deck (DRS!!! Dark Confidant!!!) than loam engine on the beginning. You should be able to play Lands deck with one land drop per turn which is your worst scenario. Playing ONE Cursed Totem means anytime you play loam he can decay totem and remove your loams, ONLY punishing fire make Jund MU an "favorable" MU, but against BUG is really tough since he can protect his DRS. Using 4 grove 4 fire I can ensure to get rid of those creatures which are the ONLY ones I care on the metagame besides Ooze which I havent seen lately. Im just saying.... since players start using Pfire I have seen more lands on top16 than a year ago, why messing that up with unstable cards.... also... what happens if you dredge your single Cursed totem on early game? And dont say Academy ruins, because by the time you can get that totem back, probably DRS has already done a lot of destruction.


Im playing thalia since last week, and it has been good until now... but Im really want to use 4 fetch instead of 3 on this 5c version... giving me better chances to get BOB and Thalia on early game.

For 4x BOB Im playing 9B sources (I count taplands as 0.5)

1 Bayou, 3 Fetchs, 4 Diamond, 1 Bojuka Bog, 1 Creeping Tar Pit

For 3xThalia Im playing 8W sources

1 Savannah, 3 Fetch, 4 Diamond, 1 Karakas