[Deck] Eureka a.k.a. Answer_DOT_Deck

[Complete_Jank]

I wanted some response on this deck I am currently playing.

Eureka isn't what the deck is designed to do, it is counter draw or way to get around some things like Meddling Mage

First off, this deck is by no means easy to play. The play strategy depends on the oponent's deck, and the cards you have in your hand. There are weekness's in the deck, but there are many ways for it to win against different decks including High Tide.

It's worst match up is Rifter, thus the Stabilizer in the sideboard also it is the only non-wish target in the sideboard. It also has problems with Wasteland if it doesn't hit Saclands or forests.

The deck almost never sideboards, so your play will be consistent. You know what it can do, and can't do.

The Current Deck List
23 Creature Spells
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Wall of Roots
3 Goblin Welder
2 Eternal Witness
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Rofellos
1 Ravanous Baloth
1 Squee
1 Anger
1 Duplicant
1 Sundering Titan
1 Shield Sphere
1 Meddling Mage
2 Kokusho

19 Non-Creature Spells
4 Burning Wish
4 Survival
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Eureka
3 Enlighten Tutor
1 Pithing Needle
1 Lifeline
1 Seal of Clensing

18 Land
3 Wooded FootHills
2 Windswept Heath
4 Taiga
3 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Savannah
1 Tropical
3 Bayou


Sideboard
1 Eureka
1 Living Death
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Pyroclasim
1 Anarchy
1 Topple
1 Chainer's Edict
1 Reanimate
1 Washout
1 Hullbreach
1 Armagedon
1 Meltdown
1 Haunting Echoes
1 Stabilizer




This is the current list right now as far as I can remember off the top of my head.

About each card:
4 Birds of Paradise - Mana accel and all colors.
3 Wall of Roots - Mana Accel and blocker.
3 Goblin Welder - It is a Welder base deck, but only three because of space.
2 Eternal Witness - Getting back a needed spell like a survival, burning wish, or e even a land.
1 Quirion Ranger - Birds, Welders, & Rofellos work here. Also saves lands from your own titan.
1 Rofellos - Too powerful not to make the cut.
1 Ravanous Baloth - Against Burn he's great, and with Lifeline he is broken.
1 Squee - One to keep the SotF running.
1 Anger - Allows Welder, Rofellos, and any threat to be instant problem.
1 Duplicant - Good for answering against Reanimator as they usually grab Akroma.
1 Sundering Titan - Titan/Welder is a lock that usually only White can hope to recover from.
1 Shield Sphere - Zero casting cost artifact to allow quicker inplay of the survivaled artifacts.
1 Meddling Mage - Names StP, High Tide, Tendrils of Agony, or other problematic cards.
2 Kokusho - Combo pieces, also allows big threat if all else fails.
4 Burning Wish - Gets an answer, or a win condition.
4 Survival - Largest single threat in the deck.
3 Cabal Therapy - Good against Control & Combo
2 Eureka - Puts early threats in play, draws a counter spell, gets around mettling mage, and wins games.
3 Enlighten Tutor - Gets everything in the deck except a sorcery. (Creature, Enchant. or Art.)
1 Pithing Needle - One of that can be got by E. Tutor, also great 1st turn drop and 3rd turn welder target.
1 Lifeline - Combo piece, as well as blocker support, and life gain.
1 Seal of Clensing - E. Tutor gets it for humility and Pithing Needle.

18 Land: You run at least one of each green duel land because of wish targets, and 5 fetches so as to allow the need to get a certain land you would need, like a Savannah to play E. Tutor to get Survival for second turn drop, or grabbing a Taiga or Mountain for Anger effects. You run more Black in the deck than any other color except Green/Red so Bayou's are needed often, as Double black is often part of a casting cost.
3 Wooded FootHills
2 Windswept Heath
4 Taiga
3 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Savannah
1 Tropical
3 Bayou

Sideboard
1 Eureka - Same as the main deck.
1 Living Death - Survival into grave and then cast this for swing of board position.
1 Cabal Therapy - Needed often against control and combo. Actually people I know counter the burning wish if they are playing control or combo because they know I have this in my sideboard. #1 MVP of SB
1 Cranial Extraction - Can eliminate certain decks after Therapies
1 Pyroclasim - Saving grace against goblins
1 Anarchy - Believe me, this deck hates white.
1 Topple - Answer to Akroma or other Reanimator threats. Also removes Darksteel Fattie.
1 Chainer's Edict - Removes two, as it flashes.
1 Reanimate - Turn two Burning Wish then Reanimate Other player's Akroma is good, not to mention, I've also Reanimated my own Duplicant, Sundering Titan, Kokusho, and Welder. #3 MVP of SB
1 Washout - Good against White, Goblins, Multiple Mettling Mages, and Stompy.
1 Hullbreach - This card is so good, it can't be left out. It is a 2 for 1 in many cases. #2 MVP of SB
1 Armagedon - When you have 3 birds and a Ranger on turn 3 or 4 this is almost game over.
1 Haunting Echoes - This also wins games.
1 Stabilizer - Rifter is a huge problem.


The deck has run Niv-Mizzet & Curiosity in the past with Brainstorms and other changes, but the original deck was designed to pull off the Kokusho x2 Lifeline combo. Which can only be stopped by Humility, Stifle, Swords to Plowshares, or instant bounce.

Humility will keep your Kokushos in the grave with no benefit, but they will return at the end of turn only to die over and over.

Stifle will yield you a swing of 20 life(+10/-10) and one Kokusho in play at the end of turn, and the other in the grave.

Swords to Plowshares will yield a swing of 25 life(+15/-10) and one Kokusho in play at the end of turn, and the other removed from game.

Bounce will yield you a swing of 20 life(+10/-10) and one Kokusho in play at the end of turn, and the other in your hand.

I have tried running Reoccuring Nightmare, but it is too slow for my liking.


Thanks,
Mike

Please only constructive criticism.

[Finn]

Hey Mike. It's good talk to you about this. I am a Welder Survival kinda person. In fact, I began the first Legacy thread I know of anywhere right here a few years ago, and I STILL have a version built to this day. It is a fun, powerful engine, as I am sure you know.

Welder Survival is capable of countering so many strategies on its own, I am wondering why you decided to branch off. Considering that it made the deck into 5 colors (ouch), it appears to be a step backward.

This build has about a million things going on, and seems rather nebulous. In my build, I have a lot of backup plans for things like counterspells, Withered Wretch and Pithing Needles (the three biggest threats to the deck) to assure the one path to victory. You have very little of that. Instead you have other directions. How is this working for you?

[Complete_Jank]

Hey Mike. It's good talk to you about this. I am a Welder Survival kinda person. In fact, I began the first Legacy thread I know of anywhere right here a few years ago, and I STILL have a version built to this day. It is a fun, powerful engine, as I am sure you know.

Welder Survival is capable of countering so many strategies on its own, I am wondering why you decided to branch off. Considering that it made the deck into 5 colors (ouch), it appears to be a step backward.

This build has about a million things going on, and seems rather nebulous. In my build, I have a lot of backup plans for things like counterspells, Withered Wretch and Pithing Needles (the three biggest threats to the deck) to assure the one path to victory. You have very little of that. Instead you have other directions. How is this working for you?

This build takes top 4 at a weekly local tourney every time I play it. Tourney consists of 35-50 people.

I usually only loose to Solidarity if I get paired against it, but that isn't 100%, Titan lock early has won too many games.

There are quite a few different things going on in the deck, but that proves to be an advantage more often than a disadvantage. Opponents don't know what to name when they drop needle or mage.

Burning wish is just rediculous. You can reanimated Reanimator's creatures on turn two with a bird, and I have taken thier creatures from them. They have no answer to Akroma, lol. Also, Topple is your wish answer to Akroma, or the Duplicant main. Burning wish answers almost any problem.

Enlighten Tutor is about the second best card in the deck next to Burning wish, as it gets Survival, An artifact creature, Pithing Needle, Seal of Clensing, or Lifeline if you are going off, or just need reoccuring blockers.

I will admit that the 2 Kokushos and Lifeline could be removed for something better, however, I like the combo, and Lifeline has proven itself on more than one occasion with blockers and or Baloth.

[Complete_Jank]

Additional info.

I set out when Kokusho was printed to build a deck with Eureka and Lifeline to win with it.

I played Workshop Combo up untill it was banned, so I really liked Welder.

Survival was one card that I knew would make it possible to get my Kokushos in hand, and I had played other survival builds during play testing.

I like the 5 color, it keeps people on their toes, and allows me to utilize all options, but in all reality it is just a green based deck with side colors.

I have a Survival Welder deck constructed that is aimed at going off and just winning, and I am play testing that.

[Finn]

In that case, you may want to see this. Between Parcher and myself you get a lot of good discussion on strategy and card choice.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=42561

Btw, there are weekly Legacy tournaments somewhere on planet Earth that get 35-50 people?????

[Bane of the Living]

I honestly dont see how adding 2 more colors to an already good deck makes it more consistant or stronger. Welder Survival works so much better when you play with card draw, 4 Brainstorm, 4 Thirst for Knowledge. Huge in your games. I dont see how Burning Wish is worth bastardizing your sideboard when you have Intuition to be played in the deck. As a 3 mana instant speed tutor that sets up for welder tricks, its so much better than your sorc speed wish. Seriously dude. Burning Wish is slower than a main phase king cheeta.

The whole Eureka thing really just needs to go. Why would you ever want to play with that card? Goblin Welder is a million times better at cheating things into play. Lifeline//Kokusho is just as stupid. You need to decide between Welder Survival or Recurring Nightmare Survival.

The biggest strength the deck has is recurring Titans. You havent arranged a manabase for this in anyway. Where is City of Brass? Where is Tree of Tales?

Its nice to see Welder Survival pop up again, but this build looks like it needs alot more focus. And theres no fucking way your making top 4 weekly at 35-50 player tournies with this. Ive never heard of anything like that.

BTW try Nullstone Gargoyle and Platinum Angel out. Neither should ever be excluded. Angel + Sylvian Safekeeper = gg.

[Pinder]

Btw, there are weekly Legacy tournaments somewhere on planet Earth that get 35-50 people?????

Yeah, I run one (well, me, Durahan, and Klaan run one) out of NW Washington that's about 40 people strong on average.

Wait, topic? What topic?

[Mad Bomber]

Yeah, I run one (well, me, Durahan, and Klaan run one) out of NW Washington that's about 40 people strong on average.

Wait, topic? What topic?

We also get a 30ish tournament on a weekly basis in San Diego

[Warmonger]

About stopping the combo... afaIk, Legend Rule is an state-based effect, so there is no way to answer it once Kokushos are in play. Opponnent can only response to casting one of them, what you're probably not going to do.

With Stifle things might go weird, but in fact is stops the 'combo', althought losing ten life is still powerful.

[Complete_Jank]

About stopping the combo... afaIk, Legend Rule is an state-based effect, so there is no way to answer it once Kokushos are in play. Opponnent can only response to casting one of them, what you're probably not going to do.

With Stifle things might go weird, but in fact is stops the 'combo', althought losing ten life is still powerful.

Even Kokushos by themselves with Eureka is a swing of 20 life. Like I said, I built the deck for fun around that combo, and I think I'll make a straight Survival/Welder deck, I have one that combo's out and can go infinite.

Let me address one thing.

The fact that a deck can go infinite is something that will make it better than a deck that can't. The chance that you can go off means you can answer to stupid things like life.

[Bane of the Living]

Not too be a punk ass but I dont need to go infinite with Platinum Angel in play. I was really just picking on your combination of 2 decks. You just need to go one direction or the other. Welder Survival is an amazingly powerfull deck when piloted well, and Eureka Kokusho sounds neat, but to pull that off I think you need a deck more developed on it.

[Complete_Jank]

Not too be a punk ass but I dont need to go infinite with Platinum Angel in play. I was really just picking on your combination of 2 decks. You just need to go one direction or the other. Welder Survival is an amazingly powerfull deck when piloted well, and Eureka Kokusho sounds neat, but to pull that off I think you need a deck more developed on it.

Platinum Angel is great while in play, but it isn't that strong. The fact that it is an artifact creature means it is the easiest removed target in the format. In the straight Welder/Survival, I do have one in the main, so it can't just be written off.

Platinum Angel isn't great when you can deal infinite damage to everything, including the Angel.

Lifeline with Baloth is pretty good as well. 8 life gained for every one of your turns.

[Artowis]

What makes this better than The Skull? You know, the Eureka deck that could goldfish turn 3/4 or make a gigantic army full of smash-faces on turn 2?

[Complete_Jank]

What makes this better than The Skull? You know, the Eureka deck that could goldfish turn 3/4 or make a gigantic army full of smash-faces on turn 2?

I'm not familure with that deck, do you have a deck list, or link to it?

[iOWN]

I'm not familure with that deck, do you have a deck list, or link to it?

Use the Search Function.

The Skull (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=830)

[Complete_Jank]

Use the Search Function.

The Skull (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=830)


That deck is pretty inferior to this one for many reasons.

One, no search. The enlighten tutor would help get both Sneak Attack and the Darksteel Colossus.

Two, remove one Eureka and put it into the board, then also add Burning wish, you then have 7 Eurekas and answers.

Mettling Mage and Pithing needle stop almost the entire deck with no answer.

The deck looks like it can go off quite well, but disruption looks like it will mess it up pretty well, not to mention there is not much disruption in the deck either.

When you cast Eureka, you want to insure victory. What happens if Humility drops off a Eureka? I almost never play Eureka against white.

At least run black for Cabal Therapy.

[Artowis]

That deck is pretty inferior to this one for many reasons.

One, no search. The enlighten tutor would help get both Sneak Attack and the Darksteel Colossus.

Two, remove one Eureka and put it into the board, then also add Burning wish, you then have 7 Eurekas and answers.

Mettling Mage and Pithing needle stop almost the entire deck with no answer.

The deck looks like it can go off quite well, but disruption looks like it will mess it up pretty well, not to mention there is not much disruption in the deck either.

When you cast Eureka, you want to insure victory. What happens if Humility drops off a Eureka? I almost never play Eureka against white.

At least run black for Cabal Therapy.

Didn't read past the first post much?

1. The deck runs E. Tutor; and Sneak sort of alleviates the problem of not drawing Eureka.

2. Meddling Mage names Eureka or Sneak, not both. Pithing Needle does jack and I'd love for them to bring it in. I'm mildly amused that you think shutting down SOTF in the deck should actually hurt it that much. Maybe your version, because you seem so reliant on it to get ANYTHING going, but not the ones in that thread.

3. What happens if Humility drops off Eureka? You fucked up. :/

4. Therapy is ass here. At least if you're going to randomly run a black discard spell, pick the one that doesn't require the creature sacrifice to be just as good. Somehow I doubt that the flashback is mattering a ton with only 13 early game creatures for you to use. Most of which are better if they stay alive.

In all seriousness, the Eureka deck you put up is a Burning Wish Survival deck that pretends it can combo off on occasion, but really has all the weaknesses of Survival decks and instead of redunancy, runs a weak 'trump' in Eureka. You barely abuse it, so why bother running it? So if you happen to have active SOTF and 6 mana you can Wish into some sort of Eureka win. Wow. Seems slightly flawed.

[Complete_Jank]

Didn't read past the first post much?

1. The deck runs E. Tutor; and Sneak sort of alleviates the problem of not drawing Eureka.

2. Meddling Mage names Eureka or Sneak, not both. Pithing Needle does jack and I'd love for them to bring it in. I'm mildly amused that you think shutting down SOTF in the deck should actually hurt it that much. Maybe your version, because you seem so reliant on it to get ANYTHING going, but not the ones in that thread.

3. What happens if Humility drops off Eureka? You fucked up. :/

4. Therapy is ass here. At least if you're going to randomly run a black discard spell, pick the one that doesn't require the creature sacrifice to be just as good. Somehow I doubt that the flashback is mattering a ton with only 13 early game creatures for you to use. Most of which are better if they stay alive.

In all seriousness, the Eureka deck you put up is a Burning Wish Survival deck that pretends it can combo off on occasion, but really has all the weaknesses of Survival decks and instead of redunancy, runs a weak 'trump' in Eureka. You barely abuse it, so why bother running it? So if you happen to have active SOTF and 6 mana you can Wish into some sort of Eureka win. Wow. Seems slightly flawed.


I read past the first post, however when I post a deck and it gets changed in the thread I'll update the first post.

1. Refer to what I just said, it really should be in that deck.

2. Mettling Mage x 2 or Mettling Mage + Pithing Needle is game, unless you plan on hard casting all those creatures. Pithing Needle names Sneak Attack, and I think that is pretty good, so Pithing Needle means they only have to stop Eureka.

3. That is why you have Cabal therapy. One Cabal will cast twice for the problems you need to deal with. Humility then Sowrds to Plowshares, Tanglewire then Smokestack/Duplicant, Force of Will then another counter, Tradewind Rider or other bounce. It is also useful if you play against Solidarity. It allows to strip items on turn one.

Heck, I've Cabaled myself when I got needled by reanimator to get duplicant in my grave then burning wished for reanimate to remove his Akroma

4. Therapy is more of a problem then you give it credit. The fact that I can cast it twice if the first gets countered to still name Swords to Plowshares against Threshold is amazing, or to name both Swords and then flash for the Humility against Monowhite means thank God I could cast it twice. I only care about removing certain cards, and Duress would only hit one Swords if they had multiples. Also, you can reanimate a Kokusho then sacrifice it to cast a Cabal Therapy in your grave to have your opponent lose 5 life, because you never pass priority Your opponent can't do anything.


All in all, My deck isn't designed to only win by Eureka, but against Certain decks Eureka is an advantage. Control decks have to counter it because the chance of a threat they can't deal with hitting the board is too risky, let alone multiple threats that normally are easy to deal with in consecutive turns, now becomes a problem because they may have less answers than there are threats.


When I play this deck in tourney, I usually only cast Eureka with Kokusho, Kokusho, Lifeline once in a 5 round tourney, if at all, but it has won me games that I wouldn't have been able to win, because Kokusho doesn't target, and it is life loss, not damage.


The deck has a chance against any deck, unlike some decks in the format, that roll over to certain other decks.

[Cavius The Great]

3. What happens if Humility drops off Eureka? You fucked up. :/

That's why I think Seal of Cleansing should atleast be run in the SB in any Eureka deck for that very reason. But Rifter seems like it's becoming less and less popular so it really shouldn't be an issue.

[Complete_Jank]

That's why I think Seal of Cleansing should atleast be run in the SB in any Eureka deck for that very reason. But Rifter seems like it's becoming less and less popular so it really shouldn't be an issue.


I run one Seal of Clensing main, with Enlighten Tutors for removal of Humility and Pithing Needle.

Enlighten Tutor gets a needed item or answer in the deck, while Burning Wish gets an a needed spell or answer outside of the deck.

Also, you are very right about rifter being a problem, it is actually one of the worst match-ups, thus the solo Stabilizer in the SB, and with welders it usually stays.

[The Rack]

Its nice to see a good deck on these forums for once. I have had personal experience with losing to this deck by this player. You do not want to see less than 5 lands aainst this deck. Titan by itself makes it so strong it is RIDICULOUS!!!! The deck is too well rounded to recieve flames from you guys so test it or don't reply. Our tourney is about 40+ and this does top 4 every week. Burning wish is such a good card it is unbelievable. Everything works well and can play around a lot of things. I had a first turn Void and still got beat. The other game it wasn't even funny seeing a third turn Titan in my face. Nasty deck. Good luck with it Mike!!!

[Complete_Jank]

Its nice to see a good deck on these forums for once. I have had personal experience with losing to this deck by this player. You do not want to see less than 5 lands aainst this deck. Titan by itself makes it so strong it is RIDICULOUS!!!! The deck is too well rounded to recieve flames from you guys so test it or don't reply. Our tourney is about 40+ and this does top 4 every week. Burning wish is such a good card it is unbelievable. Everything works well and can play around a lot of things. I had a first turn Void and still got beat. The other game it wasn't even funny seeing a third turn Titan in my face. Nasty deck. Good luck with it Mike!!!

Thanks for the vote of confidence, I remember that match up, and that was the most different (And difficult) way I had to play the deck to adapt to someone's board position in a long time.

I think you hit the nail on the head, and know how the deck works because you've seen it in action against yourself and others. "Too well rounded," was probably the best way to discribe it, as it tries to focus on playing the best cards suited for the current match, and changing the focus of the deck depending on board position.

See you Friday.

[Complete_Jank]

bane_of_the_living,

I'm going to put Nullstone Gargoyle in the deck tonight and see how well it works. I'll let you know.

I do like the idea of it, and think it will be worth it.

[Complete_Jank]

Nullstone Gargoyle was nice in the deck, however, I had a horrible night.

I lost every dice roll and thus was behind against quick decks like reanimator and someone who played 12 land Stompy. The only deck that didn't kill me before I took turn four all night was a Control deck.

I played all three games in all three matches I played.

Against stompy in game one I die on turn three. Game two I Wished and Washed out Green, then a few turns later I Blocked with everything minus Rofellos and then Wished and Living Deathed as he had no creatures in grave and one card in hand. No Survival and I won. Last Game, I died on turn three again.

Against Control He goes turn two Mettling Mage naming Survival, on turn three I cast Eureka with extra mana, so no daze possible, and put Survival and Welder in play. I survival and he StP's welder, I pitch Titan, Nullstone Gargoyle, Squee, and then grab/cast second welder. Turn four I pitch anger then grab Shield Sphere and cast, he scoops. Game two and three I loose because of player error.

Against Reanimator, I go second, and have no mana accel game one, and I die turn three. Game two I drop Survival turn two and he swings with Akroma turn two. Turn three I set up, and take another 6. Turn four I Duplicant the Akroma and swing 6 with anger in grave. He puts Phantom Nashoba in play. Turn 5 I double Weld Duplicant and stack the imprint and swing with Nullstone G. He double Exhumes to grab a non target creature, and I grap Eternal Witness. Turn 6 I overwelm and kill. Game three he goes first turn dark ritual, imp, cabal therapy naming survival, pitch Akroma, Reanimate, and sack imp flashing back therapy naming burning wish. GG

I lost to quick decks and a few muligans, overall very upset about the night, but sometimes #@$% happens.

[Bane of the Living]

Speaking of ridiculous. If you have 2 Nullstone Gargoyles, one in the yard and one in play, you let the first one counter an opponents spell. Then you weld it out for the other Gargoyle. The new Gargoyle sees the next spell your opponent plays (their second spell) as the first one played for the turn. Making double Nullstone pretty much gg always. Ive never lost a game with this lock.

I really want to push you to refine your decklist and focus on a more traditional welder survival list. Try cheaper tech that wont completely change the deck. I had alot of success with Aether Vial, Divining Top, and Reanimate. 3 maindeck Troll Aestetics were always quite boss as well since they are game winning threats on their own merit. They soak up counterspells and Pithing Needles to make your combo aspect more dangerous.

[xsockmonkeyx]

@CJ What is the argument against running Sneak Attack? Seems like it would be good with SotF, Kokushos and Lifeline. Plus, its E. tutorable.

Also, could you update the first post and do a rundown of your card selections and matchups. Thanks.

[Finn]

Speaking of ridiculous. If you have 2 Nullstone Gargoyles, one in the yard and one in play, you let the first one counter an opponents spell. Then you weld it out for the other Gargoyle. The new Gargoyle sees the next spell your opponent plays (their second spell) as the first one played for the turn. Making double Nullstone pretty much gg always. Ive never lost a game with this lock.


This does not work. This card only checks to see if it is the first noncreature spell played in a turn. If the first one was countered as a result of this guy, the next noncreature spell is the second one of the turn. The gargoyle will ignore it. Even if the first noncreature spell resolved, the gargoyle will ignore all further spells that turn whether it was in play at the time of the first or not.

Yikes, your opponents let you get away with that? Shame on them.
BotL is right. This deck can be a winner with some refinement. But my ideas a re very different from his on which way to go.
**********************************************************

Against stompy in game one I die on turn three.

Last Game, I died on turn three again.


Against Reanimator, I go second, and have no mana accel game one, and I die turn three.

This is a bad day no matter what. I can count on one hand the number of times I have been killed on turn three in Legacy.

[Complete_Jank]

Ok, I updated the first Post to explain why each card is in, and what it does for the deck.

I did not put Nullstone G. on the list because I'm not sure if it will stay or not. I didn't like that it only got welded once, and the other time I had to cast it. It will be played in continued sessions, but at the cost of 9 it is just above what the deck can cast at turn 3

I am pretty sure Nullstone G. must be in play at the time a spell is announced, or it will not counter the spell, thus I can not weld it in to counter a spell, and I know for a fact that two Nullstones G.'s will not counter two spells in succession.

I think I might try and put one Sneak Attack in the deck for a tourney and see how it goes, but I don't think it will run well. I use the tourney as play testing alot, as the pay out is store credit, or half cash, and thus I always have store credit to continue to play. Not to mention, I really don't care about the money.


Finn, I will talk to you about my straight-up Welder Survival deck build. I'm not trying to turn this into that, because I know that this deck isn't suppose to be that. This deck is suppose to have answers to any deck, which it does quite well except on really bad days. I do see the strength of Welder Survival, and actually have other deck list ideas that have not seen play test yet.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Ok, I updated the first Post to explain why each card is in, and what it does for the deck.

TYVM

What kind of matchups and strategies does this deck have against the big three (solid, gob, thresh) and other decks that you are likely to encounter? You mentioned rifter but I was curious how this deck pans out against the rest of the field (especially combo)

[Complete_Jank]

TYVM

What kind of matchups and strategies does this deck have against the big three (solid, gob, thresh) and other decks that you are likely to encounter? You mentioned rifter but I was curious how this deck pans out against the rest of the field (especially combo)

Solidarity is about 40%, but I haven't won a match up against it in a tourney. (Currently 0-2, how unlucky.) It comes down to if you go first, have Cabal Therapy, or get Titan Lock on turn 3 or 4. Many times the deck is forced to try and go off in reaction to the Titan, and that decides who wins. They either win or fizzle.

Goblins is a slightly better than 50%, I'd say 55%, but I've never lost to Goblins in a tourney. (Currently 5-0-1, how lucky.) You want to hit the Burning Wish for Pyroclasm, and follow it up with Wall of Roots. Lifeline comes into play in this match up as it provides reoccuring blockers, and with a Baloth or Kokusho, it is almost a certain win.

Threshold is about 50% as well, however I've only faced it in a tourney once. (1-0) There are too many things to name with Mettling Mage, and too many things to counter. Cabal Therapy and Burning Wish are nice MVP's as is the Titan again in this match up. I've even dropped the Lifeline as a delay strategy against big beats.

Rifter you want to wait and hit them with Haunting Echoes. After that got put in the side board, the deck's win percentage increased, not to mention the Stabilizer.

Mono Black and Black/White can be a tough match-up because of hand disruption, but is still a little above 50%.

Landstill is just shy of 50% and the 4 Color BHWC version is about 35%-40%.



The deck doesn't have an overwelming chance to win against any particular deck, but almost every match-up is right at 50% + or - 10%. The deck was designed to be adaptable to each match-up. it would see in a tourney.

This deck wins on player skill and knowledge of the deck and the fact of lack of knowledge of the other player on what the deck does, and is capeable of. This deck forces choices on the more difficult match-ups and wins on the player errors that the other player will make.

[Bane of the Living]

Im about 90% sure that the trick with the Gargoyles works. The new Gargoyle, Gargoyle B, was not in play when the opponent played the first spell, the second spell is the first one that Gargoyle B sees in play, so his ability triggers.

Ill try to clear this up on the card interactions page but Ive done this on several occasions now.

[quicksilver]

Im about 90% sure that the trick with the Gargoyles works. The new Gargoyle, Gargoyle B, was not in play when the opponent played the first spell, the second spell is the first one that Gargoyle B sees in play, so his ability triggers.

Ill try to clear this up on the card interactions page but Ive done this on several occasions now.

You are saying that if you have a Nullstone Gargoyle out and then an opponent plays a spell it counters it. Then you weld out a Nullstone Gargoyle for another Nullstone Gargoyle. This second one counters the next spell your opponent plays.

If I am hearing you correct here you are wrong. Nullstone Gargoyle can only counter the first noncreature spell played each turn, regardless of weather or not it was in play. It does not counter the first noncreature spell played since it was in play. So any combination of Nullstone Gargoyles can only at the very most counter one spell per turn.



The new Gargoyle sees the next spell your opponent plays (their second spell) as the first one played for the turn.No, it does not work like that.

[Complete_Jank]

Nullstone Gargoyle reads:

"Flying
Whenever the first noncreature spell each turn is played, counter that spell."

The wording is such that it is a state based ability that will trigger depending on the game state if it meets the requirements of the ability.

Thus Nullstone Gargoyle will check whenever a spell is played, and then it will determine if another spell had been played this turn that was a noncreture spell. If there was no other spell Nullstone Gargoyle will trigger, if there was, then it will not trigger.


Now, here are two question which are much more in depth, and need a very experienced judge to rule on this.

1.) If Nullstone Gargoyle is welded in to play in response to the first noncreature spell of a turn will it counter the spell?

My thinking says, "NO," however it depends when it triggers and takes effect, which brings up my second question.


2.) Standstill, triggers whenever another spell is played in response to the first spell on the stack, will Nullstone G. counter the first spell, or the others on the stack after it? Thus, can Nullstone Gargoyle be Stifled and have the first spell not be countered?

My thinking says, "YES," because Stifle is not the first played spell even though it will be the first to resolve, and Nullstone Gargoyle has to Trigger to counter the first spell.

[Finn]

Well, I have an answer and a question.

Answer(s)

1.) If Nullstone Gargoyle is welded in to play in response to the first noncreature spell of a turn will it counter the spell?

My thinking says, "NO," however it depends when it triggers and takes effect, which brings up my second question.

The answer is NO. If the Gargoyle is not in play when the spell is PLAYED, the Gargoyle will not trigger. So if you try this, the first noncreature spell will resolve and the Gargoyle will not counter anything for that turn. For that reason, be sure to end your turn with it in play.


2.) Standstill, triggers whenever another spell is played in response to the first spell on the stack, will Nullstone G. counter the first spell, or the others on the stack after it? Thus, can Nullstone Gargoyle be Stifled and have the first spell not be countered?

My thinking says, "YES," because Stifle is not the first played spell even though it will be the first to resolve, and Nullstone Gargoyle has to Trigger to counter the first spell.
If I am understanding the question, you are correct here.

You can Stifle the countering trigger from the Gargoyle. The Stifle itself will not be affected. Standstill works differently, however, and cannot be Stifled. Well, technically it can, but then the Stifle will trigger the Standstill again since it is sacrificed as a resolution, not a cost.


So here's my question:
When Sundering Titan comes into play (or leaves), it's ability triggers:

"When Sundering Titan comes into play, choose a land of each basic land type, then destroy those lands.
When Sundering Titan leaves play, choose a land of each basic land type, then destroy those lands."

When it comes into play, I have Savannah, Taiga, and Forest, and my opponent has Tundra, Tundra, and Island.

I choose his Island for Island
I choose his Tundra for Plains
I choose my Taiga for Mountain
Can I choose that same Taiga for Forest?

For more than two years I have been playing that I can not, but now I am not so sure. If the choice "choose a land of each basic land type" is made before the lands are destroyed "then destroy those lands" I think I should be able to.

[quicksilver]

Can I choose that same Taiga for Forest?

Absolutly, a long standing trick of the titan.

[Finn]

Yeah. That is annoying. At the time, I was skeptical of the ruling I got when I tried to do this at a tournament and just never bothered to look into it further. I am actually a little embarassed that I have been doing this wrong for so long, but I doubt it mattered. When Titan comes to town, the game is over in short order almost always.

Anyway, thanks for the confirmation.

[Complete_Jank]

Yes, if it wasn't for the fact that Titan hits 5 land types, and not 5 different targets, he would be unplayable in my deck.

I've had players and judges tell me that they had too be seperate targets. Just remember that judges are people too, and can make mistakes, and they do that often.

Before I made this deck, every controversial card was discussed with the local judge and I explained how each component worked so that he would not have to look it up in the middle of a match. The comprehensive rules were reviewed for legend rule and state-based effects, as well as the up to date wording on Lifeline.

If I was to play this deck else where, I would just be ready to name the rule that states why something works the way it does.

[Complete_Jank]

Ok,
Last night I was playing an older gentleman, probably mid 40's. He had some decks he wanted to try out so I said I would play him. I learned two things last night.

He is playing Mono Green Elves and I muligan and keep the second hand with 2 Burning Wishes, 1 Wall of Roots, and 3 lands, one being a fetchland.

10 turns into the game I realize I need to put a tutor card back into my sideboard. I use to have one, but never used it, now I wish I had it back in there, as I have not drawn an Enlighten Tutor or a Survival.

23 turns into the game I realize, "MY DECK CAN PRODUCE INFINITE MANA!" I had wished for Washout to stay alive, and slow him down. I cast it and float mana to cast all my stuff again. I have done this before as a slow/delay tactic, but I've usually used it against non-green decks.

Rofellos with at least 9 forests, Anger in the grave and a Mountain, a Bird of Paradise, and an Eternal Witness to hit Washout. Not something I am going to make a deck around, but it does produce infinite mana.

I was able to lock him out and make it so he could never attack, because he never had haste. I just repeated the process over and over untill I drew an Enlighten Tutor, and then I went off.

[Windux]

I tested this Deck.

What do you think to play 1 Recurring Nightmare and 1 Doomed necromancer?

Also, this COMPLETLY random toolbox...
I Mean, to be honest:
Enlightened Tutors with the 1-offs
Survival with the 1-offs (and no option to get stuff back, because of none Genesis)
AND
Burning Wish with 15 Tutorcards?

Isn't that a bit of overkill, even if this decks tries to win with searching for solutions?
Isn't it better, to remove some 1-offs to make it more consistent?

[Finn]

Windux, I realize that English is not your first language, but could you please restate your last post? I can't quite make out your meaning past the Doomed Necromancer part. And I am interested.

[Lukas Preuss]

He basically meant to say that the toolbox part of the deck is just too much. You have an Enlightened Tutor toolbox, a Survival toolbox AND a Burning wish toolbox. Even though it increases your ability to search for every possible solution, this is probably too much since it leads to inconsistancy.

I think he's definitely right there. You don't need a card for every possible state the game could be in. Look at Solidarity's sideboard for comparison. First it ran only one-ofs (including crap like Tolarian Winds, etc.), but slowly people realised that a more consistant sideboard (playset of Hydroblasts and BEBs were added, for example) would be a lot better than a whole bunch of one-ofs that only have very narrow uses.

[Complete_Jank]

I tested this Deck.

What do you think to play 1 Recurring Nightmare and 1 Doomed necromancer?

Also, this COMPLETLY random toolbox...
I Mean, to be honest:
Enlightened Tutors with the 1-offs
Survival with the 1-offs (and no option to get stuff back, because of none Genesis)
AND
Burning Wish with 15 Tutorcards?

Isn't that a bit of overkill, even if this decks tries to win with searching for solutions?
Isn't it better, to remove some 1-offs to make it more consistent?

I had tried Recurring Nightmare, and I deemed it to slow, as it isn't in the line of what the deck tries to do. I never wanted to see it in my hand, as there was always a better card. If I was running Yosei, then this would be a playable card, but I am not.

I don't think you see Enlighten Tutor the same way I do. Enlighten Tutor is about the best card in the deck. It gets you the following cards: Duplicant, Sundering Titan, Survival, Pithing Needle, Lifeline, Seal of Clensing Thus it gets you a Creature, Win Condition, or Answer. It use to get a mana piece when I ran one or two Pentad Prism.

Enlighten Tutor gets a Survival on turn one so you can play it turn two.

Enlighten Tutor gets a Creature so that you can Survival if you don't have one.

Enlighten Tutor gets the Pithing Needle to name the Withered Wretch or Tormod's Crypt.

Enlighten Tutor gets the Seal of Clensing to remove a problem like a Pithing Needle naming Survival.

Enlighten Tutor gets the Lifeline to allow for never ending blockers and life gain. I've never lost with that on the board.



As for no Genesis, well I guess you could say I run Suicide Survival. This deck use to run him, but he became a card I never wanted to see. Since his removal from the deck there has only been one game where I would have liked to have had him, but I won the match so it did not matter. I have thought about putting one in my sideboard and putting it in against Control decks, but I alreayd have a pretty decent match up against Control.


I do agree that taking out many of the 1 of's would make the deck more consistant, however it would weaken some of the match-ups while making others stronger. I personally want the deck to have about 50% chance to beat every deck, not something like 35% or less against a certain deck, even if it would make my chance to win against most decks 75% or more. If I see the deck I hope not to see in tourney it is a real bad match up, and could change the out come, specially if I see two of the same deck.


As for the Sideboard, Some cards could be replaced with some things, however I have put together a sideboard that has an answer for every deck in the format that I see as problematic, specially if I am not expecting to see it. The only exception is that I had not run Boil, but that will be going in the next time the deck see's play. Right now and as of last Friday I am currently running a Blue, White, Green, Red Welder/Survival minus the Burning Wishes. I went 4-2, but should have been 5-1.

[Complete_Jank]

He basically meant to say that the toolbox part of the deck is just too much. You have an Enlightened Tutor toolbox, a Survival toolbox AND a Burning wish toolbox. Even though it increases your ability to search for every possible solution, this is probably too much since it leads to inconsistancy.

I think he's definitely right there. You don't need a card for every possible state the game could be in. Look at Solidarity's sideboard for comparison. First it ran only one-ofs (including crap like Tolarian Winds, etc.), but slowly people realised that a more consistant sideboard (playset of Hydroblasts and BEBs were added, for example) would be a lot better than a whole bunch of one-ofs that only have very narrow uses.


Enlighten Tutor is a tool box effect as a secondary means.


Enlighten Tutor's main job is to act as another Survival. In a deck where Survival is practically your win condition Enlighten Tutor serves as your consistancy of having it, thus making the deck more consistant.

In an opening hand if I have Survival and Enlighten Tutor, I know against a first turn Duress I am good to go. Even more importantly I know I am better against a Cabal Therapy, then I would have been with two Survivals.

A first and second turn in a game where I will be playing Enlighten Tutor over Survival will look like this:

Turn 1: Sacland, fetch at end of opponents turn and play E. Tutor for Survival
Turn 2: Draw, Play Survial

or

Turn 1: Land, Play Bird of Paradise
Turn 2: Upkeep play E. Tutor for Survival, Draw, Land, Play Survival
or
Turn 2: Upkeep play E. Tutor for Survival, Draw, Play Q. Ranger, Return Land and untap Bird of Paradise, Land, Play Survival


Enlighten tutor is that added consistancy that you guys are talking about and more. After it has done it's job of providing a Survival, it later turns into a tool box effect.

[Windux]

I don't say, you should remove he Enlighteneds.
But you should remove the 1-offs.
The tutor is really great, you're right, but it sucks anyway, if you draw multiple Burning Wishes or Tutor-Targets like Needle or Seal.
I would like, to cut 2 Burning Wishes or some 1-offs, because you don't need 8 solutions for an artifact (3 Tutor's, 4 Wishes and the Seal by itself).
And 15 Wishtargets are overkill.
Cut them down to 10 or 11 and play 4 Duress or Meddling Mage #2-#3.
Or add some Pyroclasms to board in against aggrodecks (or Massacre).

I think that would help alot.

Topple, Chainer's Edict, Pyroclasm, (Washout)...do you need all these creatureremoval?

[Finn]

Mr. Jank. I am in complete agreement with these folks. I know that in my sb I have to devote a lot of space just against counterspells - cause otherwise they will beat you. And that is just for starters. You need to clear up some space in both the board and main and add some reliable staples to shore up that bad matchups.

[Complete_Jank]

Ok, current Sideboard is:
1 Eureka
1 Living Death
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Pyroclasim
1 Anarchy
1 Topple
1 Chainer's Edict
1 Reanimate
1 Washout
1 Hullbreach
1 Armagedon
1 Meltdown
1 Haunting Echoes
1 Stabilizer

Cards that could possibly stand to be removed.1 Cranial Extraction
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Chainer's Edict
1 Washout
1 Armagedon

Cranial Extraction has only been cast twice with a 50/50 out come, so it can go.

Chainer's Edict is inferior to Topple because of Reanimator/Akroma and their stupid little Imps that stay around to chump to the Chainer's Edict, this has been on the chopping block for awhile.

Washout is good for removal of items unable to be targeted, multiple Humilities, or a horde of single colored creatures. I.E. Goblins or Stompy

Armagedon has won every game it has been cast in. Most decks don't run ways around loss of land. Even Crucible is slow to recover and is no match for multiple mana creatures, specially if I follow it with Titan lock.


Now for other remarks:
The Pithing Needle Main board is never a dead card if drawn. Worst case it names Wasteland, and Pithing Needle becomes a Welder target about a turn later.

The only one of in the deck that would never want to be seen in certain match-ups is the Seal of Clensing, and it is exactly that...A ONE OF. I have never once seen it where I needed something else and lost because of it. The Seal of Clensing is useful against 2 of the top 3 decks, and can be sided out if it isn't usefull, not to mention it is good against most decks in the format other than Solidarity.

[Complete_Jank]

Mr. Jank. I am in complete agreement with these folks. I know that in my sb I have to devote a lot of space just against counterspells - cause otherwise they will beat you. And that is just for starters. You need to clear up some space in both the board and main and add some reliable staples to shore up that bad matchups.

I understand what you are saying, however Counter decks tend to not be horribly common in my metagame, and when I get paired against them, I win 80% of the time because of the Cabal Therapies and Eurekas unless it is our 4c BHWC Landstill, then it is like 40% of the time.

[Clark Kant]

Should this deck squeeze in a few Hypergenesis to increase consistency.

Damn you Wizards, why didn't you make it Suspend 2 instead of Suspend 3. You just made the card much less powerful.