[Deck] CounterSliver

[Pinder]

Indeed, if we didn't already have a better option for a 1cc white Sliver, Sidewinder would make the cut. I'm going to agree with Mav here and say that Time Spiral will give us about as many useful Slivers as Legions did. Namely, one. Legions gave us Plated Sliver, and Time Spiral gave us Harmonic Sliver. So far those are the only two I can see being actually playable (well, Sidewinder, but not in this deck).

[Volt]

And the Shadow Sliver is likely to cost 4. Shifting Sliver, anyone? Of course, we don't actually know that it gives Slivers shadow, but we can probably safely assume. If it costs any more than 2, I can't see this being any better than Winged Sliver.

Even if it costs *1*, I don't see it being better than Winged Sliver. We like to be able to block.


And I just noticed that all three of us (Mav, Volt and I) are sporting new, Sliveresque avatars. Nice. Volt, did you want me to mod yours so it's demolishing an appropriate goblin, perhaps tearing the head off of a ringleader ?:laugh:

EDIT: Ooh, better yet, from looking at the picture I can see Muscle Sliver giving Ringleader a headlock with his right arm. Very appropriate :wink:.

Yeah, once I saw that you guys had adopted sliver avatars, I had to follow suit. I love how you modded that hapless green man into the Plated Sliver picture. If you want to do something similar for me, I won't complain. :smile:

[Pinder]

Even if it costs *1*, I don't see it being better than Winged Sliver. We like to be able to block.


The man has a point. Winged Sliver > Shadow Sliver.




Yeah, once I saw that you guys had adopted sliver avatars, I had to follow suit. I love how you modded that hapless green man into the Plated Sliver picture. If you want to do something similar for me, I won't complain. :smile:

Consider it done. I should have it done by sometime tomorrow.

[Alfred]

Oh, good. I was waiting for something to make this deck viable. Thanks.

No problem, I'm glad that a card came around that could turn this relatively terrible deck into something relatively competative! I mean, the last list I saw in this thread featured NONE of the new Slivers, but instead went with all of the old ones, which was tried what? Hundreds of times without succeeding?

Thank God Telekenetic Sliver came around! Opposition on a creature for all of your creatures is just what this deck needed to push that Goblins matchup into the 90th percentile, and turn Threshold into a virtually unlosable matchup.

[xsockmonkeyx]

No problem, I'm glad that a card came around that could turn this relatively terrible deck into something relatively competative! I mean, the last list I saw in this thread featured NONE of the new Slivers, but instead went with all of the old ones, which was tried what? Hundreds of times without succeeding?

This is neither productive or necessary. Please read the thread before resorting to dismissive sarcasm.

[Maverick676]

Look alfred, If your not going to contribute to the discussion then please do not post at all. This deck is not terrible, in fact it is pretty close to tier 1. It is fairly evident that you have not bothered to test the deck or even read the thread. If you had you would realize that your comments are idiotic. We run the old slivers because they are BETTER than every sliver printed in the newer sets. Crystaline and muscle are the most powerful slivers EVER PRINTED. Plated sliver is the only new sliver that actually adds something useful instead of having a nifty ability but being a 2/2 that costs 4. Unless its a sliver ringleader, this deck will never play a sliver over 3cc.

[Alfred]

This is neither productive or necessary. Please read the thread before resorting to dismissive sarcasm.

I just did. Basically, it is the same thing that has been tried before, until people realized that Threshold is pretty much superior to this deck, because it runs less creatures, more draw and counterspells and doesn't need to keep a whole bunch of them in play for them to be more than simple bears. Seeing as people are simply rehashing the same ideas that have been tried and failed in the past, I decided to suggest a Telekenetic Sliver, which is apparently "too slow" even though it turns all of your creatures into Icy Manipulators minus the mana cost.

Opposition is an extremely powerful card in Aggro control strategies, and has many times been the most powerful deck in many formats, so when you get a creature version of that which also recieves the bonuses of other Slivers, while tapping things down itself, it should at the very least be considered. It's insane that you would toss that idea out so quickly.


Look alfred, If your not going to contribute to the discussion then please do not post at all. This deck is not terrible, in fact it is pretty close to tier 1. It is fairly evident that you have not bothered to test the deck or even read the thread. If you had you would realize that your comments are idiotic. We run the old slivers because they are BETTER than every sliver printed in the newer sets.

First of all, if this deck is so close to teir one, how come it has been tried so many times, and never amounted to anything? It's not like you've innovated anything. You're still using the same countersliver strategy with the same trash cards like Talon Sliver, without adding anything new at all. Seeing as nothing has been changed, and the deck has been tried many times in the past and failed, how the hell is it beating Goblins, Threshold and Solidarity consistantly?

I seriously question your testing and your logic.

EDIT:

Crystaline and muscle are the most powerful slivers EVER PRINTED.

This is also simply not true. Sedge Sliver is the best Sliver ever printed, because it's not only better on it's own then either of these two Slivers, it also bestows both of it's extremely relevant abilities to other Slivers. But alas! It isn't in the colors that you are using, so I guess there isn't any reason to test it at all.

[xsockmonkeyx]

You're still using the same countersliver strategy with the same trash cards like Talon Sliver, without adding anything new at all. Seeing as nothing has been changed, and the deck has been tried many times in the past and failed, how the hell is it beating Goblins, Threshold and Solidarity consistantly?


If you did read the thread then read it again without being so dismissive. I dont question your logic I question your additude.

[Volt]

Opposition is an extremely powerful card in Aggro control strategies, and has many times been the most powerful deck in many formats, so when you get a creature version of that which also recieves the bonuses of other Slivers, while tapping things down itself, it should at the very least be considered. It's insane that you would toss that idea out so quickly.

If we were running a more control-oriented version of Counter Sliver, then your suggestion would have merit. Personally, I didn't have a problem with the suggestion in the first place. It was the flippant remark about making our deck "viable" that brought the house down on your head.



First of all, if this deck is so close to teir one, how come it has been tried so many times, and never amounted to anything? It's not like you've innovated anything. You're still using the same countersliver strategy with the same trash cards like Talon Sliver, without adding anything new at all. Seeing as nothing has been changed, and the deck has been tried many times in the past and failed, how the hell is it beating Goblins, Threshold and Solidarity consistantly?


First of all, Counter Sliver won a GPT last October. Second, we have made some innovations with this deck. #1 We aren't running Aether Vial. #2 We *are* running Talon Sliver, which is huge. #3 Our build is a *very* streamlined aggro-control deck that runs only free counterspells, as well as tempo cards like Stifle, Pithing Needle, and/or Chain of Vapor.

This deck does beat Goblins consistently, and is 50/50 with threshold. Against combo, we may not be favored in game 1, but after sideboarding we are strongly favored.

Your comments to this point have been arrogant and uninformed. I can pretty much guarantee that this deck is going to start becoming more popular, and will probably start placing in some major tournaments.

[Alfred]

If we were running a more control-oriented version of Counter Sliver, then your suggestion would have merit. Personally, I didn't have a problem with the suggestion in the first place. It was the flippant remark about making our deck "viable" that brought the house down on your head.

I made that comment because you guys were still running the exact same lists as ones that have been tried in the past, but almost every time people realized that it was just a bad version of Threshold, just like this deck. To quote Spat:

http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=44697&postcount=2

Basically, where Threshold has to commit a single threat to the board and protect it, you have to commit MANY, and you aren't running any cost cheating mechanics like Goblins does, and all of your creatures suck on their own, so if like, Muscle Sliver is countered or removed, all your Talon Slivers are overcosted Tundra Wolves.


First of all, Counter Sliver won a GPT last October. Second, we have made some innovations with this deck. #1 We aren't running Aether Vial. #2 We *are* running Talon Sliver, which is huge. #3 Our build is a *very* streamlined aggro-control deck that runs only free counterspells, as well as tempo cards like Stifle, Pithing Needle, and/or Chain of Vapor.

Stifle and Chain of Vapor seem poor in this deck, though Pithing Needle is great. Chain of Vapor basically comes with the tagline "don't cast this until Crystaline Sliver is in play", which probably makes it worse than Boomerang, because people are going to bounce your Slivers if they have the chance. Stifle seems poor, especially seeing as you are already running Pithing Needle. Do you really want more than 4 activated ability stopping effects? It just seems like you are wasting spots that could be devoted to more board controlling effects.


This deck does beat Goblins consistently, and is 50/50 with threshold. Against combo, we may not be favored in game 1, but after sideboarding we are strongly favored.

I'm actually going to test this out, because I don't believe a word of it. Once I'm done with Battle of the Sets, I'm going to build the decklist on page 11, and I'm almost goddamn positive that it doesn't have a positive matchup against Goblins or against Threshold. You're manabase is poor, and you need to resolve and keep multiple, very specific creatures in play in order to have a chance of beating either of these two decks, which is unlikely because you also want to block.


Your comments to this point have been arrogant and uninformed. I can pretty much guarantee that this deck is going to start becoming more popular, and will probably start placing in some major tournaments.

Call me what you want to, but when people start going apeshit because I suggested adding Telekenetic Sliver, and people continue to defend their decks with 0 changes and frigging Talon Sliver, decks which up to this point have done very little, yet have been tested and run many times. It's not like this idea hasn't been done to death, so I don't understand all this resistance to try out these new, more powerful Slivers.

[AngryTroll]

I was skeptical about the deck also, but spent a night playtesting against it with Goblins. I would not say the matchup is positive for Goblins. Plated and Muscle Slivers are both annoying (moreso Plated then Muscle, actually, because it blocks Lackey), Crystaline is a pain, and Talon tends to win the game on the spot. I did win my share of games, that is certainly true, but I would not want to run into that match in a tournament.

[Maverick676]

IBasically, where Threshold has to commit a single threat to the board and protect it, you have to commit MANY, and you aren't running any cost cheating mechanics like Goblins does, and all of your creatures suck on their own, so if like, Muscle Sliver is countered or removed, all your Talon Slivers are overcosted Tundra Wolves.

Yes this deck have to commit multiple threats to the board, thats exactly what beats goblins, we have multiple first striking, untargetable blockers.


Stifle and Chain of Vapor seem poor in this deck, though Pithing Needle is great. Chain of Vapor basically comes with the tagline "don't cast this until Crystaline Sliver is in play", which probably makes it worse than Boomerang, because people are going to bounce your Slivers if they have the chance. Stifle seems poor, especially seeing as you are already running Pithing Needle. Do you really want more than 4 activated ability stopping effects? It just seems like you are wasting spots that could be devoted to more board controlling effects.

WOW you really have not tested this deck, early Chains of Vapor are great tempo and usually you either have crystaline sliver out or nothing at all. Hell even if they bounce one of your slivers, which doesn't happen very often (unless your an idiot), they still have to sacrifice a land. Usually decks like thresh can't afford to do so. Against goblins you bounce their vial or their warchief/lackey. It is a retaredly one sided boomerang that COSTS 1.

Regarding stifle, this card kills alot in the field. SEE the beginning of the thread. YOU CAN READ RIGHT?

Please by all means test the deck and see for yourself. Until you do please stay off of this thread with your misinformed and sarcastic comments.

[Volt]

I made that comment because you guys were still running the exact same lists as ones that have been tried in the past, but almost every time people realized that it was just a bad version of Threshold, just like this deck. To quote Spat:

http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=44697&postcount=2

Basically, where Threshold has to commit a single threat to the board and protect it, you have to commit MANY, and you aren't running any cost cheating mechanics like Goblins does, and all of your creatures suck on their own, so if like, Muscle Sliver is countered or removed, all your Talon Slivers are overcosted Tundra Wolves.

Stifle and Chain of Vapor seem poor in this deck, though Pithing Needle is great. Chain of Vapor basically comes with the tagline "don't cast this until Crystaline Sliver is in play", which probably makes it worse than Boomerang, because people are going to bounce your Slivers if they have the chance. Stifle seems poor, especially seeing as you are already running Pithing Needle. Do you really want more than 4 activated ability stopping effects? It just seems like you are wasting spots that could be devoted to more board controlling effects.

I'm actually going to test this out, because I don't believe a word of it. Once I'm done with Battle of the Sets, I'm going to build the decklist on page 11, and I'm almost goddamn positive that it doesn't have a positive matchup against Goblins or against Threshold. You're manabase is poor, and you need to resolve and keep multiple, very specific creatures in play in order to have a chance of beating either of these two decks, which is unlikely because you also want to block.

Call me what you want to, but when people start going apeshit because I suggested adding Telekenetic Sliver, and people continue to defend their decks with 0 changes and frigging Talon Sliver, decks which up to this point have done very little, yet have been tested and run many times. It's not like this idea hasn't been done to death, so I don't understand all this resistance to try out these new, more powerful Slivers.

Once again, we did not go "apeshit" on you because of the suggestion, but rather because of your dismissive attitude.

Our list is not the "exact same list." It is quite a bit different from previous versions that have been tried, actually.

Yes, this deck does require that you "over-commit" to the board, which would be a bad thing in an environment that runs lots of board-sweepers. Fortunately, most of the popular decks in Legacy right now do not run very many wrath effects. Also, keep in mind that Engineered Explosives and Pernicious Deed can be answered with Stifle or Pithing Needle.

Stifle, btw, is quite good in this deck, albeit better in some matchups than in others.

Regarding Chain of Vapor... that's one of the few things that Mav, Pinder, and I disagree on at this point. I prefer Pithing Needle in that slot.

[Maverick676]

Regarding Chain of Vapor... that's one of the few things that Mav, Pinder, and I disagree on to this point. I prefer Pithing Needle in that slot.

As for COV vs. needle, in my meta while we have tier 1 decks (mainly goblins, some thresh and solidarity) we also have lots of random jank, WW, Madness ect. so COV is great utility against those worships and roar of the wurm ect.

If I were taking this deck to a large tournament It would probably be pithing needle instead of chain of vapor. So as far as an agreed upon list I will concede that pithing needle is probably the right call against tier 1 and tier 1.5 decks.

[Pinder]

I could really go either way on the Pithing Needle/Chain of Vapor issue. There are a lot of times that I wished I had CoV instead of Needle, and a lot of times it was the other way around. It really depends on what you're playing against and what the board looks like. Pithing Needle would make a fine replacement, if anyone felt like running it.

Telekenetic Sliver would not. Yes, it's Opposition. Yes, it's cool. Yes, it costs too much for this deck. That's about the long and short of it. And I ask you, Alfred, how would Telekenetic Sliver keep us from overextending more than we already do? And personally, if I'm tapping Slivers, I'd rather be attacking with them.

As to this idea being 're-hashed', I agree. Lots of people have tried this. Lots of people have failed. And a few people have even succeeded (GPT last October, anyone?). The reason this is different is because Legacy is a completely different format now than it was in years past. Sure, Talon Sliver isn't super duper great all by itself, or even in general, but in a format where the best deck runs a swarm of creatures with toughness 2 or less, Talon Sliver is a fucking star. If the metagame shifts, and Goblins falls from atop its heighty throne, then we might take Talon Sliver out. If Combo dies and control matchups start to rise, then we'll adjust accordingly. But we'll only do that when it happens.

[Phantom]

I could really go either way on the Pithing Needle/Chain of Vapor issue. There are a lot of times that I wished I had CoV instead of Needle, and a lot of times it was the other way around. It really depends on what you're playing against and what the board looks like. Pithing Needle would make a fine replacement, if anyone felt like running it.


Has there been any thought to running Chain of Vapor/Eng Explosives mainboard and siding in Pithing Needle? Needle is an easy card to love in a testing enviorment, but can often be a tough play in a game 1 tourney enviorment. Many cards need to be needled before they hit the board for full effectivness (fetches, survival, wasteland, deed).

Also, this will give you no artifacts or enchantments mainboard (assuming you went with Chain) so opponents disenchants/seals will be dead and decks might not side in hate for your needles.

Just a thought.

[Maverick676]

Has there been any thought to running Chain of Vapor/Eng Explosives mainboard and siding in Pithing Needle? Needle is an easy card to love in a testing enviorment, but can often be a tough play in a game 1 tourney enviorment. Many cards need to be needled before they hit the board for full effectivness (fetches, survival, wasteland, deed).

Also, this will give you no artifacts or enchantments mainboard (assuming you went with Chain) so opponents disenchants/seals will be dead and decks might not side in hate for your needles.

Just a thought.

Actually the mainboard slot has been changed quite a few times between these three cards. Pinder and I cut EE for the chains and we sideboarded needle of course. Phantom your probably right about needle being a tough play game 1, since usually you have no idea what to name. especially if your opponent isn't playing a tier one or well known deck.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Actually, I kind of like the Opposition Sliver in the board against a random.dec that you werent expecting.

It offers a lot of general solutions to a wide range of strategies.

[Maverick676]

Actually, I kind of like the Opposition Sliver in the board against a random.dec that you werent expecting.

It offers a lot of general solutions to a wide range of strategies.

I can't really think of much that he takes care of that you don't already have other answers for. Plus he's 4cc that can be a problem for this deck sometimes. He seems like he would just take up sideboard slots that could otherwise go to vastly superior cards in most matchups.

EDIT: I don't mean to sound rude about this subject. I just don't think that opposition sliver has a place in this deck, there are a great many powerful slivers a 4cc but they are unplayable in this deck because they are so slow. I'm sure if slivers does well in T2 it will be because of this guy, but I don't think he is playable in legacy. I will test it when it comes out though since the ability is quite powerful.

[Pinder]

Yeah, Telekenetic Sliver is good. Just not in this deck. The deck is too Aggro to want to worry about playing something for 4 mana or tapping your opponents things. Off the top of my head, I can see him going into a U/W Sliver Control deck, with Crystalline Sliver, Telekenetic Sliver, Winged Sliver, and maybe even some Meddling Mage/Hivestone madness for good measure. Hell, maybe even Tangle Wire. Toss in some counterspells, and you're looking good. He taps permanents, not just creatures, which turns every Sliver you control into a free Rishadan Port against their mana. This is incredible. Rest assured, if he costed 2 (or possibly even 3) mana, I could definitely see him being run in this deck. But as it stands, he's just too expensive. Telekenetic Sliver is great, but he's best suited for a deck that can afford to sit around and play things while countering your opponent's stuff and building up mana. You're free to build a deck like that if you want. Hell, after all that brainstorming I might just go home and drum up a list tonight.

What I'm trying to say is that Telekenetic Sliver isn't bad, in fact it's amazing, but we don't have the right kind of deck here to support it. We're an Aggro deck with a light counter/cantrip base. We aren't the right kind of deck for Telekenetic Sliver.

On the subject of Pithing Needle/CoV/EE, I agree with Phantom that Needle is best when it's a sideboard card. This means that it's pretty much a battle for the slot between CoV/EE. I'm not really going to formalize an opinion on this, because I love them both. Players can run whatever they feel like, either one is superb in this deck.

[xsockmonkeyx]

BTW if watcher does turn out to be a 2cc sliver that gives all slivers defender or something like that, I will be punching people in the face.

New Slivers from MTG salvation spoiler:

Watcher Sliver 3W
Creature - Sliver
All Slivers get +0/+2.
Illus. Liz Danforth
2/2

Yay, a castle sliver. :/ Not much help.

Then there's:

Spinneret Sliver 1G
Creature - Sliver
All Slivers have "This creature can block as though it had flying."
2/2

Oh boy, a strictly worse winged sliver for green.

And:

Opaline Sliver 1WU
Creature - Sliver
All Slivers have "Whenever this creature becomes the target of a spell an opponent controls, you may draw a card."
2/2

Bad synergy with Crystal Sliver and too mana intensive.

But there is a nice little 1 mana blue sliver:

Screeching Sliver U
Creature - Sliver
All Slivers have "tap: Target player puts the top card of his or her library into his or her graveyard."
1/1

Intriguing at 1 mana. :)



And just for your information:

Bonesplitter Sliver 3R
Creature - Sliver
All Slivers get +2/+0.
2/2

Fury Sliver 5R
Creature - Sliver
All Slivers gain doublestrike.
3/3

EDIT:

Found this one too:

Quilled Sliver 1W
Creature - Sliver
All Slivers gain "Tap: This creature deals 1 damage to target attacking or blocking creature."
1/1

Meh.

[Maverick676]

Spinneret sliver looks interesting simply because it's a 2/2 sliver for 2. This deck could use a little more beef on the table, the only sliver that becomes 3 power with a muscle out is crystaline sliver.

I really like quill sliver and will definitely test him. Being able to ping attackers may give the deck a devastating edge on every creature based strategy. People have been disagreeing with chain of vapor in the deck, well this could be the card to take it's place. Quill would up the sliver count and also give the deck reccuring creature removal.

EDIT: the rest of the slivers look rather unplayable. Opaline would be interesting if our opponents could actually target our guys.

[Djelmo]

There's also

BoP Sliver 1G
Creature-Sliver
All sliver have "Tap: add one mana of any color to your mana pool."
1/1

This will make Slivers Tier 1, IMO.

[Maverick676]

There's also

BoP Sliver 1G
Creature-Sliver
All sliver have "Tap: add one mana of any color to your mana pool."
1/1

This will make Slivers Tier 1, IMO.

His ability looks handy, but there is just no room for him. Better slivers are available and having too many slivers will be a problem in this deck.

Again would people please test this deck before saying such and such sliver will make it tier 1, this deck is very close to, if not already tier 1.

[Djelmo]

His ability looks handy, but there is just no room for him. Better slivers are available and having too many slivers will be a problem in this deck.

Again would people please test this deck before saying such and such sliver will make it tier 1, this deck is very close to, if not already tier 1.

Has anyone tried making it flat aggro with Vial and everything, running maybe 30 slivers in the deck? That might work rather than the threshold-like style you have now. The BoP sliver might fit into that.

Also, the Juzam Sliver might be sideboard tech against slivers in Sui.

[vanele]

Hmmm, this sliver looks like great sideboard material.
(Don't Quote me on this but i believe it says)
Harmonic sliver 1GW
Creature - Sliver
Slivers Gain: "When this sliver comes into play you may destroy target artifact or enchantment."
1/1

Then i saw:
Sliver with two heads? 1R
Creature - Sliver
Slivers Gain : Cannot be blocked by two or more creatures
1/1

Might be useful with Sledge sliver?
Well thats all i can say for now.
My source for this being: http://www.magiccorporation.com/mc.php?rub=newsmagic&num3=14&file=viewscan&cat=&debut=63

[Maverick676]

Has anyone tried making it flat aggro with Vial and everything, running maybe 30 slivers in the deck? That might work rather than the threshold-like style you have now. The BoP sliver might fit into that.

Yes the BOP sliver might fit into an aggro sliver deck which would have to be GRB to be fast enough and would not have anything resembling a draw engine. In short Goblins would most likely be a better choice.


Also, the Juzam Sliver might be sideboard tech against slivers in Sui.

Indeed this guy would be a headache if he resolved.


That might work rather than the threshold-like style you have now.

If im reading this correctly your saying the deck doesn't work? Tell me, have you tested it? I've spent the last 3 weeks working on this deck and you think that with abosolutely ZERO hrs playtesting you can make a accurate assement of the deck?

I don't know how to make myself any clearer, this deck is COUNTER-slivers. It is an aggro control deck. It is not sliver 5 color tribal, or sliver aggro. If you want to do some testing and actually add something to the decks developement, then by all means do so. If you want to discuss the possibilities of sliver aggro then start a thread on the subject.

And to all those suggesting aether vial: it has been tested and dismissed. The card adds very little speed to the deck, and ends up being useless most of the time. It should be listed under the cards not included section at the beginning of the thread.


Hmmm, this sliver looks like great sideboard material.
(Don't Quote me on this but i believe it says)
Harmonic sliver 1GW
Creature - Sliver
Slivers Gain: "When this sliver comes into play you many destroy target artifact or enchantment."
1/1


Yes harmonic sliver seems to warrant some testing in the SB. My main problem with him is that he's a 1/1 for 3. But despite that his effect may prove to valuable to pass up.

[Benie Bederios]

Hey,

I don't think this deck is really near tier 1, maybe not even tier 2. The deck looks fine and it has some nice tricks. It's probably the best sliver deck in Legacy right now. There are some real problem with the deck.

1. No draw. You only play some cantrips without Sweepers. This way you will never gain CA early on except killing creatures in combat. Good threshdecks( at least what I think is good) run Predict. But this deck runs out of gas and if an opponent plays a boardsweeper, you will never get back in the game.

2. You loose to bigger creatures. You might win against Goblins( altough I don't think it is more than 60/40 and with my on experience it is 40/60) but if you face The Rock or Faerie/Angel Stompy like creatures you will go down unless you have Talon Sliver and 2 Muscle Slivers. Goblins isn't as easy as you say it is too. You must get a quick Crystaline Sliver, a Muscle Sliver and a pump Sliver and even then your opponent might just kill you with Siege Gang Commander and Goblin Sharpshooter. Of course you can lock them sometimes, but with your weak manabase they might just overwhelm you with Goblins Ringleader and such.

3. Some subotimal choices. You speak of Engineered Explosive, but I think this deck isn't build for it. You can't really play it for 1 or 2 without killing your own creatures. Stifle a nice card indeed, but as a 4-off seems a little to much. And you( I don't know who) want to play Needle next to that. that means 7 ability counters... counterablities... whatever. Chain of Vapor is the good option because it stops a Lackey and can give CA.

If you can get rid of those flaws( and I hope you will, because Slivers are cool) it might be a really good deck, but right now it's just an average fundeck.

BB

[Volt]

I think some people in this thread are talking out of their asses, and I'm not referring to Mav, Pinder, and myself.

I'm not going to waste time trying to talk anyone into believing this deck is tier 1 or 1.5, and I suggest that Mav and Pinder don't bother either. I'm just going to continue to enjoy playing the deck and having good results (mostly) with it. If someone is brave enough to pick up the deck, perhaps tweak it a bit, and take it to a major tournament, that would be great. I would like to hear how it does. Unfortunately, there are essentially no large Legacy tournaments that I can attend in the near future without having to hop on a plane.

Lastly, let me say this: This deck DOES beat goblins. I have tested the hell out of it. I just finished a set of 25 games last night, with my new version which runs maindeck 3x Pithing Needle + 3x Stifle. Slivers won 18 (!) of those games. If you don't believe me, TEST IT FOR YOURSELF. Just do me a favor, don't test it for just 5 games and then come back and say "I went 2-3. The deck is only 40% vs. Goblins!" At the very least, you need to play 10 games, and preferably 20.

Btw, just for reference, here is the decklist I've been using for play-testing recently:

4 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains

4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
3 Plated Sliver
3 Talon Sliver
2 Winged Sliver

4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Stifle
3 Pithing Needle // Pinder & Mav favor Chain of Vapor in this slot
1 Eladamri's Call // everybody wants to cut this card, except me

[Maverick676]

I don't think this deck is really near tier 1, maybe not even tier 2. The deck looks fine and it has some nice tricks. It's probably the best sliver deck in Legacy right now. There are some real problem with the deck.

You don't think, Done any actual testing?


1. No draw. You only play some cantrips without Sweepers. This way you will never gain CA early on except killing creatures in combat. Good threshdecks( at least what I think is good) run Predict. But this deck runs out of gas and if an opponent plays a boardsweeper, you will never get back in the game.

Most thresh lists quit using predict and they still work just fine. also the deck runs counterspells for a reason, to stop things such as board sweepers.


You loose to bigger creatures. You might win against Goblins( altough I don't think it is more than 60/40 and with my on experience it is 40/60) but if you face The Rock or Faerie/Angel Stompy like creatures you will go down unless you have Talon Sliver and 2 Muscle Slivers. Goblins isn't as easy as you say it is too. You must get a quick Crystaline Sliver, a Muscle Sliver and a pump Sliver and even then your opponent might just kill you with Siege Gang Commander and Goblin Sharpshooter. Of course you can lock them sometimes, but with your weak manabase they might just overwhelm you with Goblins Ringleader and such.

Again have you actually done any testing? Their creatures are slow, great daze and swords targets. Also their board sweeper can be needled and stifled.


Some subotimal choices. You speak of Engineered Explosive, but I think this deck isn't build for it. You can't really play it for 1 or 2 without killing your own creatures. Stifle a nice card indeed, but as a 4-off seems a little to much. And you( I don't know who) want to play Needle next to that. that means 7 ability counters... counterablities... whatever. Chain of Vapor is the good option because it stops a Lackey and can give CA.

Again have you done any actual testing? If your playing EE you only play and activate them when it is advantageous to do so. Also stifle rocks in the current metagame, thats why it's a 4 of.


If you can get rid of those flaws( and I hope you will, because Slivers are cool) it might be a really good deck, but right now it's just an average fundeck.

You have done zero testing and on top of that you insult my deck!?!?

Tell me Benie Bederios do you actually play this game or do you just troll around the source posting your ninnyhammer opinions where the whole world can be pained by them?

[Volt]

Mav: I'm on your side, but relax. Eventually, the deck will prove out.

To keep this post at least marginally on topic, I've been trying to figure out a way to fit the new Gemhide Sliver in the deck, and I just can't make it work. It's too bad it's not: G, All Slivers have "Tap: add 1 mana of any color to your mana pool," 0/1. Then it would be an auto-include.

The Quill Slivers are interesting, but once again probably not quite good enough to make room for in the deck.

[Maverick676]

Yah, Gemhide would be nice. Heck if he ends up being a 2/2 instead of a 1/1 I think he would warrant a slot in the maindeck. I'm planning on testing quill as a three of in chain of vapors spot to see if he's any good.

[Tosh]

Gemhide really doesn't make the cut in this deck. The problem I've seen Mav and Pinder have with the deck is mana flood (with so few land I'm beginning to think that it is cursed) so extra mana would do the deck no justice. On the bright side, I think that the Harmonic Sliver is an auto 3-4 of in the sideboard as it can deal with pretty much anything you would need (Worship, Improving the U/G/w thresh maybe; Jitte, that gay ass card that you would side in null rod for gets destroyed now; and many other things that would be just too good to pass up a way to kill them).

Wednesday I played Pinder with my W/U/B fish deck (play-testing the new Juzam Slivers, they're fucking 5/5's for 4!!!) and completely annihalated him and he got all depressed over it. But here is a fact: the Juzam Sliver WONT BE PLAYED in basically any decks (neither will hivestone). Unless they print a Tivadar's Crusade for sliver and with split second for like 3 mana, slivers will still be a total powerhouse.

[Pinder]

Calm down, Mav. Even if this isn't Tier 1 (which I'll have to agree it isn't just yet), it's still one of the best decks in N&D right now. People see slivers and they're like 'WTF?' and they don't test. I would take Volts advice, and not get so worked up. Anyone can say that this deck sucks. We're the ones that have to prove it doesn't. Our job is significantly harder.

So, back to meaningful discussion land, shall we?

I was playtesting again last night, and I think that maybe I wasn't looking at counterspell enough.There were quite a few times where another hard counter would have been useful. More useful than Chain of Vapor, in fact. I like Chain in that it's a great tempo card in the early game, but it starts to suck mid game if you don't have a Crystalline Sliver out. Having another hard counter could be useful. At first I thought that it was too expensive and clunky, but the fact that this is a hard counter might just make up for that fact. That, and the fact that mid to late game, since all of our lands save 2 produce blue mana, I found that is wasn't that hard to get UU consistently. It could also shore up our matches against decks that run board sweep and fat creatures. I'll admit that this deck is more geared to beat Tier 1 than it is to beat things like FS and AS, but you have to understand that it's made by three dudes who live on the west coast. I've never seen FS or AS at any tournament I've ever been to. I do see Goblins and Thresh a lot, though. Maybe that's why the deck is geared to beat them.

But where was I heading? Oh yeah, counterspell. I'm going to test it in the CoV slot, and let you know how it does. We haven't decided who's going to run it at the tourney tonight, but we should probably have another report up by tomorrow or so.

EDIT:


Wednesday I played Pinder with my W/U/B fish deck (play-testing the new Juzam Slivers, they're fucking 5/5's for 4!!!) and completely annihalated him and he got all depressed over it.

Okay, I did get a little depressed, but here's why: Klaan was running Plague ('Juzam') Sliver, Crystalline Sliver, and Hivestone. The deck was friggin' geared to beat me. Even if I could get rid of my own Crystalline Sliver, He could plop down one of his, and keep me from not only getting rid of plague Sliver, but even getting rid of my own so I could stop taking 3-4 damage per turn, plus his 5/5 beat stick. Not only that, but he had his Meddling Mage Slivers all over my removal anyway. And all of these games were without sideboard :tongue:. I'm not worried about Plague Sliver. I am a little more worried about Hivestone, though. It's an artifact, so it's completely splashable in any sideboard, and if Slivers gets big, this might show up everywhere.

[Maverick676]

Yah counterspell probably should have a slot in the main. I'm planning on playing the deck tonight so Ill through them in instead of chain of vapor.

This deck is geared to beat the tier 1, but I don't think it would have that much trouble against a deck like faerie stompy. Just from looking at the decklist, it looks like the deck likes to tap out alot, which would make daze really shine. Also needle has plenty of juicy targets. Although they can do first turn chalice for 1 (a little part of my soul dies everytime I have that played against me) which would really screw us over.

Also I'm sure this sounds like a noob question but what is AS?

EDIT:
Okay, I did get a little depressed, but here's why: Klaan was running Plague ('Juzam') Sliver, Crystalline Sliver, and Hivestone. The deck was friggin' geared to beat me.

LMAO, no one will run that much hate if they want to do well against anything else in the format.

[Pinder]

Angel Stompy. Zilla made it, if I'm not mistaken. It's in the Open Forum. Read about it. Could also stand for Angel Stax, though. That's in the Open too.


EDIT:

LMAO, no one will run that much hate if they want to do well against anything else in the format.


That's why I was so frustrated (not really depressed so much). Those games weren't even fair. :rolleyes:

[Tosh]

I'm not worried about Plague Sliver. I am a little more worried about Hivestone, though. It's an artifact, so it's completely splashable in any sideboard, and if Slivers gets big, this might show up everywhere.

Hivestone is no problem if you SB Harmonic Slivers. Harmonic Sliver says that any sliver comming into play has to destroy an artifact or enchantment and if they have a hivestone out they're gonna have to produce an artifact or enchantment for each new sliver they play as cushion in order to keep them from killing their own Hivestone.

[Maverick676]

Ok thanks, I know what the deck is now. AS just wasn't registering in my head as Angel Stompy. That deck might be a little bit more difficult a matchup. Definetly not more than 50/50 if even that high.


Hivestone is no problem if you SB Harmonic Slivers. Harmonic Sliver says that any sliver comming into play has to destroy an artifact or enchantment and if they have a hivestone out they're gonna have to produce an artifact or enchantment for each new sliver they play as cushion in order to keep them from killing their own Hivestone.

EDIT: LOL, Does anyone else find it amusing that our SB tech will be tech against their SB tech.

[Volt]

Angel Stompy. Zilla made it, if I'm not mistaken. It's in the Open Forum.


This doesn't amount to much, but I played 3 games against Angel Stompy last weekend (piloted by Zilla himself). I won two. Once you get out Crystalline, his removal becomes moot. Once you get out Talon and Winged, there's not really much he can do to get his creatures through, even if they're equipped up. It was just 3 games, but I'm pretty sure this is a favorable matchup for us. Btw, one of the most important StP targets in that matchup is the Soltari Priest.

[Maverick676]

Ok thanks, I know what the deck is now. AS just wasn't registering in my head as Angel Stompy. That deck might be a little bit more difficult a matchup. Definetly not more than 50/50 if even that high.


Wow I couldn't have been more wrong about that match. I went and actually read the decklist, I thought AS was that mono-white deck running like 7+ global sweepers and smokestack. It's good to hear that we have actual test results against the deck, piloted by its creator no less.

[Xero]

I think this Time Spiral sliver could warrant a spot in the deck (or at least testing):
Sidewinder Sliver
W
All Slivers have Flanking
1/1
Could it take Plated or even Talon Sliver's spot?

[Volt]

I think this Time Spiral sliver could warrant a spot in the deck (or at least testing):
Sidewinder Sliver
W
All Slivers have Flanking
1/1
Could it take Plated or even Talon Sliver's spot?

It's been discussed. Flanking is pretty decent, and the price is right. However, we feel Plated Sliver's +0/+1 is ultimately more important to the deck. Against aggro, we are the control, so defense is better. Against control, flanking doesn't matter. Also, Plated gives us extra insurance vs. Pyroclasm, Massacre, Engineered Plague, and the like.

Talon Sliver isn't going anywhere. He's a friggin rock star in this deck. First Strike is HUGE.

[Maverick676]

The one mana flanking sliver definitely warrants some testing, I don't think he would take talon slivers spot as first strike + flanking is freakin sexy. But he might replace plated sliver, or maybe chain of vapor, I really like chain but with all the new slivers coming out it would be silly not to run a powerful sliver in it's spot.

[Volt]

I saw this in the G/W Aggro thread:


Angel's Grace W
Instant
Split Second
You can't lose the game this turn, and your opponents can't win the game this turn. Until end of turn, damage that would reduce your life total to less then one reduces it to one instead.

Seems pretty goddam good to me. I think this is going to show up in a lot of sideboards, and probably deserves a spot in ours.

[Maverick676]

I saw this in the G/W Aggro thread:



Angel's Grace W
Instant
Split Second
You can't lose the game this turn, and your opponents can't win the game this turn. Until end of turn, damage that would reduce your life total to less then one reduces it to one instead.


Seems pretty goddam good to me. I think this is going to show up in a lot of sideboards, and probably deserves a spot in ours.

LOL THATS FREAKING AWESOME!!!!!!!!

My question is, will worship be better in our deck?

On a side note: Solidarity just died. Fortunately for us Iggy-Pop can completely ignore this card, so combo will still be around. Keeping Rifter out of the metagame still.

Before anyone asks why Iggy-Pop can ignore this I will elaborate: Tendrils will still put the opponent at 0 because its life loss, not damage. So the Iggy player will go off, playing a lethal tendrils and then pass the turn to win during upkeep due to the opponent being at 0.

EDIT: OMG just realized how supremely awesome this is on a stick.

[Phantom]

Children of Korlis w
Creature - Human Rebel Cleric C
Sacrifice Children of Korlis: You gain life equal to the life you've lost this turn.
1/1

IGGy just got hurt a bunch too.

As for Solidarity "dying", I think you're overstating things. All this means is that it dangerous for Solidarity to go off with lethal damage on the Stack and if you're holding one and there's a Gaea's blessing in your deck, then Solidarity is pretty much done (since you cast this with the Blessing trigger on the stack and they can't stroke you).

[Maverick676]

Yah phantoms right, this just means solidarity has to play differently. Although if lethal damage was on the stack you wouldn't need a blessing in the deck, All you have to do is play this so you can't lose the game that turn.

the 1/1 guy looks good on paper, but the fact is that Iggy can tutor up an answer before they play the tendrils, so this guy does absolutely zip against Iggy.

[Benie Bederios]

Your a funny guy mav. If you just want to hear how great the deck is don't put it on The Source. I've tested this deck quite alot, because on paper it looks good against Goblins. But in real testing goblins seems to power me out from time to time. Faerie Stompy is totally a bad matchup: Chalice for 1 turn 1 Sea Drake, Engineered Explosive. And Most of the time ***** will trade one for one every time, even if the opponent plays a sweeper and it resolves. And you play less counters than Thresh and if they manage to sweep you will be dead, where Thresh just plays his next creature. But if you just want to hear how great the deck is, here you go:

Great deck Mav, the best deck I've ever seen since the seperation of banned and restriction list. I bed most slivers will get banned because of this.

PS: Pinder and Volt, this isn't against to you, you are on the good way, but the point of the post was that you're not there yet.

EDIT: by the way "You haven't tested the deck" is the most lousy argument I ever heard.

[Maverick676]

Well Benie, It appears I owe you an apology. From your comments it sounded like you had just read the thread and posted some stupid comments that were not based on testing. That assumption was incorrect, and I apologize for being rude.

Global sweepers are a problem for this deck, thats why were testing with more counters in place of chain of vapor. If all your slivers get wrathed or something you can still recover assuming you kept a few slivers in your hand. Against decks that run global sweep there is really no reason to play every sliver as soon as you draw it, Crystaline + Muscle is a 4 turn clock.

As for the faerie stompy matchup, I haven't tested against it since here in washington it is almost never played, In fact I have yet to see someone actually play it at a tournament, or even in a casual game for that matter.

Yes goblins will just overpower you sometimes, but what deck can't goblins do that to? no deck beats another deck 100% of the time. But the fact is that our goblin matchup is somewhere between 65/35 and 70/30. Our thresh matchup is close to 50/50 or so, with SB it improves a little and our combo matchup is by no means unwinnable preboard, and quite favorable postboard.

I only questioned whether you had actually tested the deck because the comments you made seemed to be contradictary to what pinder, volt and myself had found with our rather extensive and still ongoing playtesting.

[xsockmonkeyx]

EDIT: by the way "You haven't tested the deck" is the most lousy argument I ever heard.

Meat Hooks is one of those decks that looks meh on paper. Its slivers and a bunch of soft counters which make it seem really underwhelming. You cant know what really does until you shuffle it up and start pounding on crap.

[Volt]

As for the faerie stompy matchup, I haven't tested against it since here in washington it is almost never played, In fact I have yet to see someone actually play it at a tournament, or even in a casual game for that matter.


I've played exactly one match against it, a couple weeks ago. I swept. My opponent was inexperienced with the deck, though. I remember in the 2nd game, I EE'd away a Chalice:1 and a mox. It might end up being a bad matchup for us, although I'm not conceding that just yet.

[Eldariel]

As for the Flanking Sliver, it looks bad. Flanking is a good ability, but it's invariably an aggressive ability. Against aggro, you're the control, so it's practically dead. Against control, they don't run creatures so it's dead anyways. It's a marginally better Metallic Sliver with colour commitment.

[Benie Bederios]

Meat Hooks is one of those decks that looks meh on paper. Its slivers and a bunch of soft counters which make it seem really underwhelming. You cant know what really does until you shuffle it up and start pounding on crap.

Yes, but makes such a remark against someone who did test the deck is kinda silly. Man I was even one of the people who tested Tunderbluff :tongue: to see how it worked. I found it the opposite of what you say, it looks strong on paper: the creatures are undercosted, you have a decent clock, nice cantrip engine, that's why I put the deck together. I already played Slivers when Duals were Legal in Extended. So when I make a post with what I found problems with the deck after testing, I rather not want to hear well sod off because I can't know.

But I'm really here to help and not getting frustrated because of other people.

I know it has been done, but how is Counterspell as a 2-off. I should remove a Daze and a Stifle for it. Because, I know Stifle is strong, but in some matchups it's just to weak. Daze is also a strong card, but only in the early turns, it's a bad topdeck after turn 3 and having 2 in a opening hand isn't good too, because you loose to much tempo. With that I should play remove a forest for a second Island. You really don't need an Forest anymore since you cut Eladamri's Call. As for the debatable slots I think Chain of Vapor is the best. I don't care if they bounce a Sliver. Early on it will cost them a land wich is nice, later on you will have a Crystaline Sliver. Pithing Needle isn't that hot with Chain of Vapor so it sits in my board. EE is to often dead. You can't use it for 2, so it only blows up moxen and Chalice or an AEther Vial, this is nice but Needle stops Vial too. Maybe I put 3 in my board. With the extra hard counters it will be easier to protect the Crystaline Sliver/Worship lock, what you really need to beat aggro. At the moment I'm testing this board:

4 Meddling Mage
3 Pithing Needle
2 Disenchant
3 Worship
3 Victual Sliver

The last one is a personal favorite of mine, in colors, 2/2 for 2 mana, is another body and helps a bit against removal and aggrodecks. It possibly becomes 2 EE and a third Disenchant.

What do you guys do against the Red Death/ Bw Confidant/ Sui Black. Most of those decks still plays Engineered Plague in the deck, and there disruption is enough to protect it. It might not kill the slivers, but it will slow the deck down. I play 2 Disenchants, but I don't know if it's enough.

Apologies accepted Mav.

[Maverick676]

The more I think about it the more I agree that counterspell should at 3 in the deck at least. Currently I'm running 0, while I believe volt is running 2?, but I plan on testing with at least 2 counterspells in the deck at my local tourney tonight.

In regards to disechant, I often find myself killing enchaments almost exclusively with it, as needle answers most artifacts better. So I have given its SB slot to ray of revelation which kills two enchantments with one just one of them, It's awesome against decks that run plague, worship ect.

@Eldariel well said, I think that about sums up the discussion about the flanking sliver.

[Volt]

The more I think about it the more I agree that counterspell should at 3 in the deck at least. Currently I'm running 0, while I believe volt is running 2?, but I plan on testing with at least 2 counterspells in the deck at my local tourney tonight.

In regards to disechant, I often find myself killing enchaments almost exclusively with it, as needle answers most artifacts better. So I have given its SB slot to ray of revelation which kills two enchantments with one just one of them, It's awesome against decks that run plague, worship ect.

@Eldariel well said, I think that about sums up the discussion about the flanking sliver.


I was running 2 Counterspells, until I cut them because you guys kept repeatedly telling me the deck didn't need them. :tongue:

Basically, Counterspell is for the late game. You'll rarely use it in the first 5 turns of the game, and it's not uncommon to pitch it to a FoW earlier in the game. I wouldn't run more than 2. I like running 4 FoW + 3 Daze + 2 Counterspell.

[Maverick676]

4 Fow, 3 Daze, 2 counterspell Sounds like a good combination to run. I'm going to try that. Yes pinder and I did keep saying to cut them, mainly I think because much of our testing was focused on goblins and thresh, the matchups where counterspell is often clunky and unnecessary. If we did more extensive testing with decks like the Rock, and Truffle shuffle (pinder and I haven't tested a whole lot against these two) then we probably would have kept counterspell as a two of or so in the deck.

[Volt]

4 Fow, 3 Daze, 2 counterspell Sounds like a good combination to run. I'm going to try that. Yes pinder and I did keep saying to cut them, mainly I think because much of our testing was focused on goblins and thresh, the matchups where counterspell is often clunky and unnecessary. If we did more extensive testing with decks like the Rock, and Truffle shuffle (pinder and I haven't tested a whole lot against these two) then we probably would have kept counterspell as a two of or so in the deck.


Actually, Counterspell is not going to help much against either The Rock or Truffle Shuffle. Those are both horrible matchups for us. They'll just pick the counterspell out of our hand, or play more board sweepers than we can counter. It would be some help against Rifter, but that's not a popular deck right now.

I think we've actually switched positions here. I like the current build without Counterspell. I've thought about putting a couple of them in the sideboard, but Meddling Mage more or less serves that purpose already.

[Maverick676]

Oh, I'm by no means sold on counterspell in the deck. But I am going to test it more, it is a classic after all. Your right about our matchups with truffle and the rock, I completely forgot about all the hand disruption. Needle and mage are probably better at disrupting their sweepers and such. I still really like the fact that this deck has no need to leave mana open for counterspells since they're all "free". It's too bad that there aren't any other free counterspells that are any good, although I've had good results with disrupting shoal in T2. Has anyone tried disrupting shoal in 1.5? If so, did it work at all?

[Pinder]

I don't think Shoal is really that great for this deck. All of our relevant blue spells cost 1 or 2, which is too narrow to make Shoal useful. Well, FoW costs 5, but if you have a Force and a Shoal, I shouldn't have to tell you which one to pitch to the other. If I do, quit playing Legacy. Now. As to other free counterspells, a quick gatherer search reveals these:

Commandeer
Foil
Misdirection (Not really a counterspell, but you know)
Thwart

Of these I believe that Foil is our best bet. It has great syngergy with Daze, for one, and since about half our lands are Islands, we shouldn't really have any trouble finding one to pitch. Especially with the amount of land me, Volt, and Mav seem to draw :laugh:. And against control and the like, we should have enough dead creature removal to discard to it was well.

As for counterspell, I can see it safely being a 2-of, as we want to see it late game when we have 3-4 slivers and can sit behind blue mana and counter things. As to taking out Daze and Stifle, I'm convinced that a Daze can go because it's not really that great late game where counterspell would be good, but I still really like Stifle as a 4-of. I suppose at 3 though we'll still see it early, which is where it's best against fetchlands and the like. Perhaps we'll keep the 4th in the board against Goblins.

EDIT: Oh, and the complete TS spoiler is up on mtgsalvation, including this little 'gem':

Might Sliver - 4G
Creature - Sliver (U)
All slivers get +2/+2.
2/2

So this is the next iteration of the mighty Muscle Sliver. Oh, how the Muscly have fallen. If it costed 2GG, it might be somewhat close to playable, but at 5, it's just bad. Sedge Sliver is better than this.

So with the complete spoiler out and speculation gone, it seems the only decent slivers in our colors are Sidewinder Sliver, which we aren't playing, and Harmonic Sliver, which is probably a board option at best. Thanks, Wizards. You really outdid yourself :rolleyes:.

[Mirrislegend]

just FYI, shoal was used VERY briefly in UGW Thresh as the deck was just peeking onto the stage.

Also, are we certain that Might Sliver is crap? It may make a truely long-game, control-based sliver deck viable.
(Aether Vial at 5 for Synapse and Might Slivers ftw? :P)

[Pinder]

Well, in a control deck, maybe. But we're not a control deck (at least, not a very heavy control deck).

And does anyone else find it ironic that they finally changed the name of the thread to CounterSliver, right after we pretty much decided on MeatHooks.dec? :laugh:.

[xsockmonkeyx]

I feel that what the deck is lacking is not more counter and control, but drawing and CA.

Like beenie mentioned before(i think) the deck has to commit multiple threats to the board and is vulnerable to CA swings due to board commitment and board sweep.

The deck already has 8 cards which improve card quality but nothing that really creates CA. I feel that if the deck has more draw(or maybe something which provides nice 2 for 1s) then it will be better able to use its control elements and be less vulnerable to CA swings.

[Pinder]

The only problem being, what's cheap enough and still provides real, actual card advantage? We discussed running Portent, but that's not really pure CA, and I'm not sure there's a whole lot we can afford that gives us pure card advantage. Curse you, Wizards, for not printing Sliver Ringleader! Honestly, it could have read like this:

'When Sliver Ringleader comes into play, reveal X cards from the top of your library, where X is the number of Slivers you control. Put all Slivers revealed this way into your hand and the rest on the bottom of your library in any order.'

That's not too broken, is it? Maybe if it only grabbed one of the Slivers. It would still be really good.

But enough dreaming. Does anyone have any suggestions for actual card advantage engines?

EDIT:

So Woj (the other guy that runs slivers) is running Impulse tonight (I'm in between rounds at the local tourney). I just lost to him (I was playing 9-Land Stompy). But that's not really the point. The point is that his build is really good, and Impulse seemed to be really effective for getting what he needed. And that his build doesn't run Plated Sliver. Those of you who can see where I'm heading, ready your flamethrowers now. For those of you who can't, get them ready anyway. What about moving Plated Sliver to the board against Goblins/Pyroclasm/Engineered Plague? Honestly, the only one of those that sees a ton of play would be Goblins (and really only Lackey specifically). And we already have a ton of answers to Lackey on the play, and basically our whole deck answers Lackey on the draw. What about cutting him for more card draw/counterspells?

The round just started, so I have to go, but tell me what you think (again).

EDIT AGAIN:

So, the tournament just finished, and Mav will have a tourney report by tomorrow sometime, but his matchups in the first 3 rounds don't matter. Only the 4th round counts here.

Are you sitting? If you aren't, sit down. If you are, sit more.

What I am about to relate to you is a turn by turn report of the most epic battle in history. 4th round, Mav and Woj (the other guy that plays Slivers) were paired, both 3-0. Either way, one of them goes 4-0. Which one here is highly relevant. I sit down with Mav's Laptop to take turn by turn notes. Here goes (note that all quotes are only slightly paraphrased, and the intent is the same. All quotes are also not mine):


Dice Roll: Woj goes first!


G1

T1 Woj- WH, fetching Tundra. Pass the turn

T2 Mav- Island, Serum Visions. Pass. EOT Brainstorm from Woj.

T3 Woj- Tundra, crystalline Sliver. Daze from Mav. Daze back from Woj bouncing Tundra(ZOMG)

T4 Mav- Island, Serum Visions. (Woj says - Who's that fucker on the Source who wants to play slivers that cost 4 mana and above?" Mav - "That's Alfred.")

T5 Woj- Tundra , "Alfred has diminished mental capacity, huh?" Mav agrees.Winged Sliver from Woj. Swings for 2 with Crystalline.

T6 Mav- tundra, crystalline. Eats a daze from Woj bouncing Tundra.

T7 Woj- Tundra, swing for 3. Talon Sliver ("Talon Sliver is one of the most powerful of Slivers in this format. Alfred sucks.") after combat.

T8 Mav- Flooded Strand, Crystalline Sliver eats Force from Woj removing Impulse. Fetches Tropical Island.

T9 Woj- "I was actually discussing this deck with some rather intelligent Players on TMD". Impulse before combat. Attacks with everything for 4.

Mav at 10.
Woj at 19.

T10 Mav - Resolves Plated Sliver. Then Muscle Sliver (Woj - "Oh, sweet!").

T11 Woj - Swings with everything, Mav blocks Talon and Winged, takes 3, going to 7. Woj Still at 19. Drops another Crystalline.

T12 Mav - Scoops to the raw, rippling, unabated power of Talon Sliver. Oh, and cries a little.

G2

Massive boarding from both players. Woj - "Alfred still sucks. Probably lives with his Mom and flames on the Source for a social outlet on his mom's computer because he has no life and is obviously questioning his sexuality. He might even think I'm hitting on him. I'm not, but if he gives me his number..."

Mav plays. Woj rubs his sleeves (they have pretty ladies on them). Woj also mulligans (good sign for Mav? Only time will tell)

T1 Mav - Tundra, pass.

T2 Woj - Tropical Island. Pass. Wow this is exciting.

T3 Mav - Laptop dies. Move to paper. Mav fetches for a Tropical Island. Serum Visions. EOT Brainstorm from Woj.

T4 Woj - Polluted Delta, fetches. Mav stifles. Woj Forces Stifle. (Mav - "But it's foily!"). Plays Crystalline Sliver.

T5 Mav - Flooded Strand, fetching Tundra. Woj rubs Mav's sleeves again during the cut. Drops a Crystalline followed by Serum Visions.

T6 Woj - Attacks with Crystalline, Mav blocks with the same. Woj drops Talon Sliver (Woj - "It really is that good, Mav just lost because he didn't Force that." A jest?)

T7 Mav - Flooded Strand fetching Tropical. Crystalline Sliver followed by Plated Sliver.

T8 Woj - Island, another Talon Sliver (oh, the power!)

T9 Mav - Plains. Swing with everything. Woj stack blocks Plated with double Talonl. Plated dies, so does a Talon. Mav concedes that he is in fact, an idiot.

T10 Woj - Plays Talon sliver, which eats a Force of Will from Mav (finally). Swings for 1 With the remaining Talon.

T11 Mav - Plays Muslce Sliver.

T12 Woj - Plays Impulse, followed by Serum Visions.

T13 Mav - Serum Visions. Swings with Crystalline and Muscle. Woj takes all 5 damage. Mav drops another Crystalline.

T14 Woj - Island. Taps all 4 of his lands for Worship! (Everyone (at this point everyone was watching) - "OMFG!")

T15 Mav - Swings with 2 Crystalline Sliver and 2 Muslce Sliver for lethal, which drops Woj to 1. Woj has only Talon Sliver protecting his precious last life.

T16 Woj - Arma-fucking-geddon. Mav Brainstorms in response, finding a Force of Will and survives the turn with his lands intact. Woj swings for 2 with Talon Sliver.

T17 Mav - Mage naming Crystalline Sliver. I didn't understand it either.

T18 Woj - Forest, Serum Visions. Drops EE for 2. Pops it to kill everything.

T19 Mav - Drops a Talon Sliver (oh the power!)

T20 Woj - Impulse, then taps 4 mana for the 1 SB WASHOUT. He bounces all white permanents, which in this case means Mav's sliver and Woj's Worship. EOT Brainstorm from Mav--

Now, at that point I didn't know what the top 3 cards of Mav's library was, but I found out later and it's pretty relevant to the rest of this report. He's looking at Meddling Mage, Engineered Explosives, and a land (or something equally as irrelevant). He grabs the Mage and drops the EE on top. Remember that.

T21 Mav - Taps two mana, and drops Meddling Mage. The crowd (this was the last game, so it consisted of pretty much everyone in the whole tournament at this point) cries and cheers, knowing that Mav is about to proudly announce Worship as his choice, preventing Woj from replaying the only thing that will protect his life total!

Mav names Engineered Explosives. Um...wtf? Drops his Talon Sliver again. Now he has 2 creatures to Woj's none.

T22 Woj - Plays Worship. Plays a Muscle Sliver. Everyone laments that Mav didn't name Worship.

T23 Mav rips EE off the top, drops it for 2 and swings. Now this would be a great play, normally. Woj didn't have enough blockers to prevent at least one of Mav's dudes from hitting him, and after damage stacked, Mav could pop EE to kill everything, killing Woj when the damage resolved.

Now, our more keen readers already know what I'm about to say. A member of the crowd points out that Mav named Explosives with Mage, and couldn't play it. Everyone (even Mav) agrees that Mav is a complete and total fucking idiot. He goes back, drops a Winged Sliver, and passes the turn. A little piece of his soul dies.

T24 Woj - Winged, pass.

T25 Mav - Attacks. Woj is still at 1.

T26 Woj - Swings for 3. Passes the turn.

T27 Mav - Serum Visions, Brainstorm, then Crystalline Sliver (Woj - "Thanks!").

T28 Woj - Draw, go. (note: it's pretty boring after this, so if you want to scroll down to turn 45 or so, it wouldn't hurt my feelings.)

T29 Mav - Draw, go.

T30 Woj - Draw, go.

T31 Mav - Talon Sliver, go.

T32 Woj - Serum Visions, go.

T33 Mav - Brainstorm, then Muscle Sliver, then go.

T34 Woj - Serum Visions, go.

T35 Mav - Draw, go.

T36 Woj - Draw, Discard Flooded Strand, go.

T37 Mav - Muscle Sliver, go.

T38 Woj - Draw, go.

T39 Mav - Plated Sliver, go.

T40 Woj - Draw, go.

T41 Mav - Draw, go.

T42 Woj - Brainstorm, go.

T43 Mav - Draw, go.

T44 Woj - Discards something (who cares at this point?), go.

T45 Mav - Finally something interesting happens. Mav plays Worship for the draw? Woj taps 5 lands for a hardcasted FoW! Mav Dazes! Woj taps his sixth and final land to pay for Daze, then Mav Dazes again! Worship resolves, with about 2 minutes left in the round or so.

T46 Woj - Draws, then plays Armageddon. Mav can't counter, loses all his lands, and scoops. Aw, jeez.......:rolleyes:

So, let's recap. Mav named the wrong thing. Woj won 2-0. Aren't you glad you read all of those turns to find out:laugh: ?

And lastly, I have a bit of parting wisdom from Woj, the legendary 'Other Guy That Plays Slivers'. He's not just the other guy, though. He came up with the idea independent of Mav and I about 2 weeks before we debuted our list here on the Source. He has a lot of experience playing this thing. I think we can learn something here. Woj says,

"Alfred sucks (okay, that was me). In this deck, digging and drawing is key. You want to find Crystalline Sliver as early and as often as possible, and the more you dig, the more you can do that consistently. Stifle is good in the maindeck so you can keep tempo while being aggressive, and also because it's good against Piledriver when your first blocker is typically Crystalline Sliver (he only runs 2 stifles, interestingly enough). But card draw is one of the most important things to this deck, as it allows you to get what you need, when you need it."

After seeing that match, I tend to agree with him. Woj had answers mostly whenever he needed them. He's been tuning this deck since a few weeks before we started, independent of all the junk clogging this thread, and I think it might do us some good to take a good hard look at some of his thoughts.

As a parting and final note, all of the quotes about Alfred were from people who weren't me. Mods, if you feel the need to delete them or warn me or whatever, that is well within your perrogative to do so. But seriously, Alfred was being a dick.

[Volt]

I went 2-1 at my little local tournament tonight, beating San Diego Zoo and UGW Gro, and then losing to Reanimator (!).

I don't disagree with Woj's point about digging for Crystalline Sliver, but I think Impulse is slightly outdated nowadays. It costs 2, and there are good cantrips that only cost 1. Btw, I'm still running a lone Eladamri's Call in my deck. I can't think of a single good reason to take it out. It's Crystalline Sliver #5, which makes finding an early Crystalline easier. My friends who have played against me and watched me play the deck against others have commented that I almost never fail to find an early Crystalline.

My initial reaction to removing Plated Sliver is "no way." I think it will definitely hurt our Goblins matchup, as well as other aggro matchups. It's a tough sell for me.

[Pinder]

I know it hurts our Goblins matchup, but they can always live in the board. Honestly, I think that finding and playing Talon Sliver is still our best bet against Goblins anyway. Sure, Plated Sliver makes a great Lackey blocker, which is how he found his way into the list in the first place, but what else is he really good against?

*crickets*

See? Once you have a Talon Sliver (oh, the power!), toughness becomes largely irrelevant, because they can't target your guys, and all of your Slivers have first strike. Really, all this deck needs to do is play and set up well in the first three turns. All you really need is one Talon Sliver, one Crystalline, and one Muscle with some counter backup to stall most aggro until you can drop a few more Muscles, and eventually a Winged to start breaking through. After seeing the way Woj's build preformed tonight, I'm convinced that while Plated Sliver may be good it's not absolutely necessary to the deck. We're at the point here where the deck is more than viable, now we need to make the really tough decisions to push it that last bit into Tier 1. Plated Sliver has been fun, but that might not be the direction this deck needs to take.

As for Impulse, well, we thought they lifted the errata so it shuffled. They didn't. It's not quite as good when it doesn't shuffle, but it still digs like a mofo. I think either it or Portent (which does shuffle) warrants consideration as more card draw. Here's a (tentative) decklist:

//17 Land (you know the ones)

//Creatures (13)
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
3 Talon Sliver
2 Winged Sliver

//Draw (11)
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
3 Impulse

//Permission (12)
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle

//Removal (7)
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives

Or something like that.

[Volt]

I know it hurts our Goblins matchup, but they can always live in the board. Honestly, I think that finding and playing Talon Sliver is still our best bet against Goblins anyway. Sure, Plated Sliver makes a great Lackey blocker, which is how he found his way into the list in the first place, but what else is he really good against?

*crickets*

See? Once you have a Talon Sliver (oh, the power!), toughness becomes largely irrelevant, because they can't target your guys, and all of your Slivers have first strike. Really, all this deck needs to do is play and set up well in the first three turns. All you really need is one Talon Sliver, one Crystalline, and one Muscle with some counter backup to stall most aggro until you can drop a few more Muscles, and eventually a Winged to start breaking through. After seeing the way Woj's build preformed tonight, I'm convinced that while Plated Sliver may be good it's not absolutely necessary to the deck. We're at the point here where the deck is more than viable, now we need to make the really tough decisions to push it that last bit into Tier 1. Plated Sliver has been fun, but that might not be the direction this deck needs to take.


Well, Plated Sliver only costs 1, and becomes as good as every other sliver on the board (except -1/-1 compared to Crystalline). It's good against everything. First turn Plated, second turn Muscle is a decent clock against combo. A build without Plated is going to get raped by 1st turn Lackey a lot more often; that is a stone cold fact. Talon Sliver probably isn't going to save us when they get a free Siege-Gang into play on the 2nd turn. Plated Sliver might not be an absolute rock star in some other matchups, but he does come in handy in a lot of random situations. I had a situation last night in my Gro match, where I had a Crystalline, Muscle, and Plated in play, while my opponent had a Nimble Mongoose. I was able to get in a couple swings with the Crystalline because of those XL pants.

Keep in mind that Mav was also 3-0 in that tournament last night, and it sounds to me like he lost that 4th match primarily due to play mistakes (no offense, Mav. I make plenty.). Mav probably should have won, simply because he was playing more slivers. I honestly think we may be taking a step backwards here. However, in the spirit of fairness, let's playtest whatever new version you guys want to try out.

If we're going to cut the Plated, then Talon Sliver becomes even more important. We may want to go to 4 of those.



As for Impulse, well, we thought they lifted the errata so it shuffled. They didn't.

Yeah, I was wondering if you knew about that.

[xsockmonkeyx]

As for Impulse, well, we thought they lifted the errata so it shuffled. They didn't. It's not quite as good when it doesn't shuffle, but it still digs like a mofo. I think either it or Portent (which does shuffle) warrants consideration as more card draw.

What difference does it make if it shuffles or not? You still have cards on top of your library that you havent seen yet so it is as good as a shuffle, no?

[Eldariel]

What difference does it make if it shuffles or not? You still have cards on top of your library that you havent seen yet so it is as good as a shuffle, no?

Yea, but the cards put to bottom stay there if it doesn't shuffle.

[Hanni]

I just wanna chime in that the deck will not be Tier 1 for a while.

A deck may be the best deck in the format, but it's considered Tier 1 once it becomes overly popular and makes Top 8 appearances at large events consistently, with at least a few 1st places.

It takes time for a deck to become considered Tier 1, regardless of whether or not the deck is simply amazing. It's also largely dependant on its popularity throughout the entire Legacy community as a whole.

This is not to say that your deck can or cannot become Tier 1. I just felt that I'd state that it's not something that is going to happen for a while... because those of you working on this deck keep referencing that this deck is going to be Tier 1 once you decide on a common list, but it's not gonna happen right away.

Anyway, good work on the deck guys. Aggro/control decks are my favorite.

[Djelmo]

I'm playing this casual/budget sliver control:

MUC SLIVER?

Lands (24):
20x Island
4 x Saprazzan Skerry
Creatures (23):
3 x Screeching Sliver
3 x Winged Sliver
3 x Mnemonic Sliver
4 x Telekinetic Sliver
2 x Psionic Sliver
4 x Synapse Sliver
Enchantments (4):
3 x Faces of the Past
Other:
4 x Counterspell
4 x Force of Will
2 x Wash Out

It still needs testing, but what do you guys think? I like the Faces of the Past + Psionix Sliver + Telekinetic Sliver combo, as it turns all my Slivers into bigger Mogg Fanatics, not to mention Vitalizing all my slivers. Also Telekinetic Sliver so far seems to be quite the force, making a virtual Opposition. Also, Pisonic Sliver replaces Acidic Sliver for me, so there's not much besides Muscle/Might/Hibernation sliver outside of blue, so I think I'll keep the stable mana base and save my money for mono blue.

Then again, my meta isn't very competetive, so I'm not sure.

[Pinder]

A build without Plated is going to get raped by 1st turn Lackey a lot more often; that is a stone cold fact.


I'm not so sure of that. I mean, we have Force for Lackey if we absolutely need to, and we also run Stifle and Swords to Plowshares as a 4-of. Even without Plated Sliver, we can proably still answer a Lackey on the draw consistently. Sure, it might soften our position against Lackey a little, but probably not as much as you're suggesting.



I had a situation last night in my Gro match, where I had a Crystalline, Muscle, and Plated in play, while my opponent had a Nimble Mongoose. I was able to get in a couple swings with the Crystalline because of those XL pants.


I'll admit, fat asses against other creatures of similar size is pretty great, but you know what else is? First strike. If you replace that Plated Sliver with a Talon Sliver (perhaps we should push it up to 4) in tha situation, you can still swing unabated.



Keep in mind that Mav was also 3-0 in that tournament last night, and it sounds to me like he lost that 4th match primarily due to play mistakes (no offense, Mav. I make plenty.). Mav probably should have won, simply because he was playing more slivers. I honestly think we may be taking a step backwards here. However, in the spirit of fairness, let's playtest whatever new version you guys want to try out.


I'll admit, this deck is really good as is, and you could probably run Plated Sliver with relatively spectacular results, but I'm really just trying new ideas to see what it is that pushes it from 'really good' to 'Tier 1'.


It takes time for a deck to become considered Tier 1, regardless of whether or not the deck is simply amazing. It's also largely dependant on its popularity throughout the entire Legacy community as a whole.


Well, okay. Tier 1 after a while :rolleyes:.

[Hanni]

U/W/g Slivers

Lands (17)
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Plains

Creatures (15)
1 Winged Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
2 Talon Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver

Spells (28)
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Accumulated Knowledge
3 Daze
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Disenchant
1 Eladamri's Call

Sideboard (15)
2 Talon Sliver
3 Jotun Grunt
4 Meddling Mage
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Pithing Needle (can be Stifle)

This is what I would do with the deck if I were to begin playtesting. I've done alot of work with other aggro/control builds so I do come with a little bit of experience, though I've never actually played Slivers so I may be wrong with some of the card choices.

I'll start with the land base first. The deck is primarliy blue, so I went with a heavier blue manabase. White is the next predominant splash, so I gave it a basic Plains to tutor for with the 7 fetchlands. I also added a basic Island for that reason. This deck is fundamentally better with 6-8 fetchlands, so I ran 7. 17 lands is sufficient with such a low cc.

Obviously, the core of the deck is 4 Muscle Sliver and 4 Crystalline Sliver. 4 Plated Sliver gives this deck 4 1cc creatures, which works well with the manabase (especially considering the cantrip/draw), and it's a 1/2 that blocks Lackey. The extra toughness helps draw creatures out of Bolt range when Crystaline Sliver is not in play, and it's an all-around great Sliver for the deck. 2 Talon Slivers give the deck a better game against most aggro, with 2 in the sideboard for games where additional is necessary. Running more than 2 maindeck seems iffy to me, especially since they are 1/1 for 2cc when Muscle Sliver isn't in play. A 1/1 Flyer for 1U hardly seems worth it, even if it does get boosted by your Muscle Slivers, and even if it does grant everything else flying. The deck runs a lone Eladmri's Call to act as the 2nd Winged Sliver... or the 3rd Talon Sliver (5th after sideboard). It also acts as the 5th Crystaline Sliver or a 5th Muscle Sliver. 15 creatures should be sufficient, especially with the solid draw engine (this is aggro/control after all).

One card that I would like to fit into this deck is Dark Confidant. The card draw he provides is amazing, plus he's a beatstick at the same time. However, this deck can use Accumulated Knowledge instead, since it is a very solid card for card advantage. 12 card draw spells sounds sufficient for an aggro/control deck, 8 cantrips + 4 CA. They are all pitchable to FoW, which make them great, and they also work well with Jotun Grunts after sideboarding. The deck also has 1 Eladmri's Call to further the draw engine, acting as a tutor for necessary creatures.

I've tested with aggro/control alot and the 4/3/2 split of FoW/Daze/Counterspell is beautiful. You want to see Daze early, so you need to run at least 3, but you don't want to see it late, so running 4 can sometimes be a dead draw. 3 makes the most sense to me. The deck still wants some form of hard counter for mid-late game sweep spells or other important spells, so 2 Counterspell works well (less chance of early game draws but more probable to draw mid-late game than 0). 4 FoW shouldn't need explanation.

For maindeck removal, the deck should be sufficient with 4 Swords to Plowshares. The deck has enough dig for it, and the fact that it runs untargetable First Strike creatures that can be pumped up to large sizes, should require less removal maindeck. 2 Disenchant comes in as solid utility against cards like Umezawa's Jitte.

I don't think Chain of Vapors is what this deck wants at all... 1 turn tempo can be helpful but it doesn't compare to an actual answer. Let me compare with Swords to Plowshares. Swords to Plowshares is still tempo too, the opponent spends their turn playing a creature that you end up removing (wasting that turn). However, they lose that resource rather than getting it back. Chain of Vapors creates tempo at the cost of card advantage, something that this deck desperately wants to avoid. Actual answers are far more worthwhile.

I don't run Stifle in my version simply because I feel that it doesn't do enough. It's good against Solidarity, I suppose, but it's still pretty narrow in usage outside of that. Combo is supposed to be a good matchup for aggro/control anyways, so the deck should at least leave combo answers in the sideboard. My aggro/control decks run no answers to combo in the sideboard, though it has Meddling Mage maindeck. For your deck, I'd consider combo answers in the sideboard. Stifle has other uses as well, I agree with that, but nothing that I feel isn't worth simply using Counterspell, Daze, Disenchant, or something else on. It's amazing against Pernicious Deeds, although countermagic does the same thing but broader. Against a card like Jitte though, it's better to just Disenchant it. I see it being more useful against activated abilities, where Pithing Needle seems to be a much better sideboard answer. Of course the deck could always turn the Pithing Needles into Stifles, though I think Stifle is better used as tempo against fetchlands rather than concrete answers to most problems.

The sideboard has 2 Talon Slivers for Goblins and other aggro (dropping 2 Counterspells probably), as well as Engineered Explosives to remove creatures in Zoo, Angel Stompy, etc while removing cards like SoFI, Chalice of the Void, Phrexian Negator, and Hypnotic Specter. It's just randomly versatile all around and is your best answer the Chalice of the Void. It might hurt you sometimes, but your the aggro/control player... you run 15 creatures and alot of control elements.

Jotun Grunt is a great hoser to Threshold because its a 4/4 beatstick for 2cc at the same time. Graveyard hate works well against many different decks in the format, and with Jotun Grunt, you get it in a 2-for-1 package since he's also aggro.

Meddling Mage is my favorite answer to combo because it still puts on a clock against the combo player. It requres that the opponent uses Echoing Truths, Evacuation, or something similar to remove him. This in itself can often cause them to fizzle. If they do try to remove him, you support him with counter backup. Otherwise, your golden. I always name the win conditions with Meddling Mage (Tendrils or Brainfreeze), and protect them. They are also useful against control, where naming off key spells can be very helpful... and he's a 2-for-1, like Jotun Grunt, because he's a 2cc 2/2 at the same time.

Pithing Needle is extremely versatile and hurts/hoses alot of decks (Tog, Survival, Landstill, Land.dec, etc). It can be switched to Stifle, though I've had great success with Pithing Needle and never felt I needed the reach of triggered abilities with Stifle.

Please remember that most of my experience from putting this list together comes from my experience with my UWb Fish deck, since they are both blue based aggro/control decks. Some important ideas for both decks may differ since they are slightly different. I still believe that the list I presented is pretty solid. I haven't really looked at the most recent decklists lately so if I'm ripping off of someone's list, I'm not. I'll go skim through the 17 pages of content when I get the time to see if I am or not.

The cool thing about this deck, for me, is that after buying all the cards for my UWb Fish deck, the only cards I would need to buy to assemble this would be the Slivers, 4 Accumulated Knowledge, 1 Eladamri's Call (which none of these are very expensive), and 4 Tropical Islands (I purchased an extra set of Tundra's which could easily trade for these). It's cool how blue based control (especially with white) can fit into alot of different decks. Hell, I can assemble Threshold for pretty cheap too. Only problem with all of this is that my UWb Fish deck was far more expensive than both Slivers and Threshold are... oh well.
:(

[Togit460]

I'm playing this casual/budget sliver control:

MUC SLIVER?

Lands (24):
20x Island
4 x Saprazzan Skerry
Creatures (23):
3 x Screeching Sliver
3 x Winged Sliver
3 x Mnemonic Sliver
4 x Telekinetic Sliver
2 x Psionic Sliver
4 x Synapse Sliver
Enchantments (4):
3 x Faces of the Past
Other:
4 x Counterspell
4 x Force of Will
2 x Wash Out

It still needs testing, but what do you guys think? I like the Faces of the Past + Psionix Sliver + Telekinetic Sliver combo, as it turns all my Slivers into bigger Mogg Fanatics, not to mention Vitalizing all my slivers. Also Telekinetic Sliver so far seems to be quite the force, making a virtual Opposition. Also, Pisonic Sliver replaces Acidic Sliver for me, so there's not much besides Muscle/Might/Hibernation sliver outside of blue, so I think I'll keep the stable mana base and save my money for mono blue.

Then again, my meta isn't very competetive, so I'm not sure.
You dirty a beautiful thread...
Although telekinetic sliver is very sexy in play. the casting cost on the other hand is not. Try to remember that this thread is about COMPETITIVE counter slivers, and while i enjoy looking through casual forums occasionally, when i'm trying to look through for tips and styles of competitive decks like these, people throwing out their casual deck with a make it better sign doesn't help. I'm not trying to flame you, I just hate seeing people post lists that they admit are strictly casual in this forum page. If only because it's the one with the improve sign on it. You're missing test results, card choices, etc... for the most part. Redo it with these and then post it.

[Djelmo]

You dirty a beautiful thread...
Although telekinetic sliver is very sexy in play. the casting cost on the other hand is not. Try to remember that this thread is about COMPETITIVE counter slivers, and while i enjoy looking through casual forums occasionally, when i'm trying to look through for tips and styles of competitive decks like these, people throwing out their casual deck with a make it better sign doesn't help. I'm not trying to flame you, I just hate seeing people post lists that they admit are strictly casual in this forum page. If only because it's the one with the improve sign on it. You're missing test results, card choices, etc... for the most part. Redo it with these and then post it.

Good point. A thousand apologies.

I've tested one game, and Telekinetic Sliver was bomb.com, being able lock half your opponents lands is incredibly useful, and I swung untouched for 9 turn 8 I beleive. Worked pretty well. But it needs more testing.

[Volt]

I'm not so sure of that. I mean, we have Force for Lackey if we absolutely need to, and we also run Stifle and Swords to Plowshares as a 4-of. Even without Plated Sliver, we can proably still answer a Lackey on the draw consistently. Sure, it might soften our position against Lackey a little, but probably not as much as you're suggesting.


Between Force of Will, Stifle, and Swords to Plowshares, only the latter qualifies as a good answer to turn 1 Lackey. The others are desperate measures that equate to card disadvantage.

Sorry if I'm being a party-pooper, but I'm 99% sure that removing Plated Sliver will not improve the deck. I'm open to being proven wrong, though. Let me know how the play-testing goes.

[Maverick676]

4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Plains

Creatures (15)
1 Winged Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
2 Talon Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver

Spells (28)
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Accumulated Knowledge
3 Daze
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Disenchant
1 Eladamri's Call

Sideboard (15)
2 Talon Sliver
3 Jotun Grunt
4 Meddling Mage
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Pithing Needle (can be Stifle)

Hanni don't take this personally but this list looks like a butchered version of our deck.

The problems I see:

No windswept heath? you want to be able to fetch a basic forest.

Only 1 winged and 2 talon? these guys win games.

Accumulated Knowledge without intuition is a terrible draw engine.

Main deck disenchants? So unnesscessary (at least in my meta).

The one eldamari's call. This is at both you and volt, please cut this one of. More versatile spells are available. Ones that help you get creatures, counters and removal.

Lack of maindeck stifles and engineered explosives. Stifle is one of the main strengths of this deck. It's great in the current meta, and rapes goblins hardcore. Explosives is just so versatile.

Also I've done more testing with counterspell, and I just don't like it. It's slow and requires mana to be open. Honestly I can not see this card ever being run in this deck.

What I do like is jotun grunt in the board. This card seems like a house against thresh and solidarity.

Again I'm just trying to share my insights I've learned from all my previous playtesting with the deck. I'm not trying to insult you or anything.

[Volt]

The one eldamari's call. This is at both you and volt, please cut this one of. More versatile spells are available. Ones that help you get creatures, counters and removal.


Let me ask you this... Would you run 5 Crystalline Slivers if you could? Of course you would. Now, why is it that we should cut Eladamri's Call again?

Seriously, the card repeatedly comes in handy for me. I'm not going to cut it from my build.

[Volt]

Here's some possible sideboard tech for the mirror match: Spell Snare. It's also very good against Deadguy & Pox, which are problem matchups for us.

[Hanni]

Again, my decklist was built from my knowledge of blue based aggro/control builds and not actual testing with the Slivers deck.


No windswept heath? you want to be able to fetch a basic forest

With only 4 Muscle Sliver and 1 Eladmri's Call as the only green spells, I don't see the need to fetch a basic forest. If your going against a deck with Wastelands, leave fetchlands uncracked so you can crack them for a Tropical Island when you need to cast one of the 5 spells of 60 cards in the deck.


Only 1 winged and 2 talon? these guys win games.

Winged comes down as a 2cc 1/1 flyer on its lonesome and doesn't really do it for me. It can give evasion, though the deck shouldn't need it often since the creatures should be buffed up nicely from Plated Sliver and Muscle Sliver and get first strike from Talon Sliver. Plus more than 1 doesn't add any additional benefit to the rest of your Slivers. The deck may only have 1, but it actually sees it much more often than the number looks on paper due to the lone 1-of Eladamri's Call and the other 12 card draw spells.

Talon, again, comes down as a 2cc 1/1 first strike on its lonesome. It's ability is only useful once, and the rest of the Talon Slivers are just 2cc 1/1's unless pumped by Muscle or Plated. If it was a 2/2, I could understand running more than 2 maindeck, but with the Eladamri's Call and card draw, 2 maindeck 2 sideboard should be more than sufficient, in my opinion.


Accumulated Knowledge without intuition is a terrible draw engine.


I don't think they should be too bad, they only suck the first time you cast them. After that, 2cc to draw 2 cards is great. With the other 8 cantrips, fetchlands, etc in this deck, drawing 3 cards for 2cc should happen more often than it looks on paper. It's the only card advantage that I could think of for this deck that doesn't have too high of a cc aside from Dark Confidant, and this deck really needs card advantage in supplement to the cantrip.


Main deck disenchants? So unnesscessary (at least in my meta).

Well, these could be sideboarded I suppose, but it deals with cards that can be game wrecking for you if they go uncountered. Umezawa's Jitte was the example that I presented, though you can always cut these for creature removal if you don't need them. I like having answers maindeck without relying purely on Force of Will and Daze (especially Daze) to stop stuff.


The one eldamari's call. This is at both you and volt, please cut this one of. More versatile spells are available. Ones that help you get creatures, counters and removal.


Because it adds to the card draw engine. It's a tutor for your Slivers. It's the 5th Crystalline Sliver and Crystalline Sliver is something you want in play every game, the earlier the better. It's also your 5th Muscle Sliver. It fetches the lone Winged Sliver or one of the Talon Slivers. It's a great late game topdeck because, by then, having 4 mana to play it and the Sliver you fetch shouldn't be a problem and it's versitility is unmatched.


Lack of maindeck stifles and engineered explosives. Stifle is one of the main strengths of this deck. It's great in the current meta, and rapes goblins hardcore. Explosives is just so versatile.


Stifle just doesn't do it for me. It can be a great answer against combo but I'd rather maindeck Meddling Mage in its place for maindeck combo answers. It's solid in the current meta, but against alot of things it is just a 1 time answer to something reusable. I thought that the Goblin matchup was already in your favor anyway? Simply hard countering (Counterspell or FoW) most targets for Stifle is much better (aside from Cycling, but Pithing Needle can stop that if the target is important). The greatest strengths of Stifle, for me, are: destroying early game fetchlands for a tempo increase with the supplement of Wasteland to color screw or land screw an opponent, and stopping Pernicious Deeds. Cards like Deeds are better answered by Pithing Needle because it is a permanent answer to the card (like Meddling Mage sorta). I'm just not a big fan of Stifle outside of the mana denial theme.

I agree with you that Explosives is versatile, but more often than not the number it's going to be set to is 2. That's going to hurt you as well. If you notice, I have them in the sideboard. I realize that they are a great card, my UWb Fish deck also sideboards 3 of them. I'm just not sure that I would want to run them in the maindeck.


Also I've done more testing with counterspell, and I just don't like it. It's slow and requires mana to be open. Honestly I can not see this card ever being run in this deck.

That's why I run a 4/3/2 split, so that I typically draw into Counterspell when I am able to cast it, stopping late game topdecks like Exalted Angel or something.


What I do like is jotun grunt in the board. This card seems like a house against thresh and solidarity.

What I like is 3 Jotun Grunts maindeck. :smile: Not for this deck though (for my UWb Fish).


Again I'm just trying to share my insights I've learned from all my previous playtesting with the deck. I'm not trying to insult you or anything.

I didn't take any of it as an insult, I haven't tested the deck. I was just tossing my ideas out. You can either disregard it or test it, I'm just trying to help the development of the deck. If my ideas are a step backwards, then I appologize beforehand.

[Volt]

Hanni: Thanks very much for your input. I like your uwb fish deck.

I'm totally backing Mav on running 2x Winged + 3x Talon. They're simply too important to the deck to run fewer of them. This is where play-testing comes in. Once you play the deck for a while, you'll understand.

Regarding Stifle... It's really good, but I'm once again leaning back toward maindecking Pithing Needle instead. I've always been on the fence about which of those is better. One of the reasons Mav & Pinder like Stifle so much is because of the all the nifty tricks you can play against Goblins (i.e. stifle your wasteland, stifle your ringleader effect, etc). However, imo, Needle naming Aether Vial trumps all of those other tricks put together.

Regarding maindeck disenchants... Really not necessary. Even in the case of Umezawa's Jitte, our first striking creatures usually make the Jitte a moot point. This is one of the reasons Talon Sliver is so important. Also, if we maindeck Pithing Needles, that's another weapon against stuff like Jitte and SoFI.

[Hanni]

Well, I suggested Disenchant simply for the additional utility of removing artifacts/enchantments. It's not something that is necessary, especially in metagames void of artifacts/enchantments. Pithing Needle would be a great replacement for it maindeck.

I cannot disagree with running 2 Winged Slivers and 3 Talon Slivers because I've never played the deck, although it seems like the deck really only needs 1 in play at a time for the effect. Otherwise, they are 2cc 1/1's before pump. I suppose running extra aggro never hurts though. I think the lone Eladamri's Call would alleviate the need for the 2nd Winged Sliver though, and I did have 2 Talon Sliver sideboard for aggro heavy matchups (like Goblins and Affinity). Either way, I've never tested the deck so you are probably right.

I just wanna say this again: the deck can actually run lower numbers on certain cards (like 2 Counterspell instead of 3 or 4) because the cantrip + card draw actually increases the probability of drawing into such cards, making the deck draw into 2 Counterspells as if they were 3, etc. This also goes back to Wingeds and Talons, because the Eladamri's Call makes the deck have 3 Talons with cantrip + card draw to make it like it actually has 4 in the deck. This logic may seem a little confusing because it's a bit difficult to word it and I would be happy to explain it in further detail if you guys want me to.

As far as helping development though, I think that maindecking at least 2 Pithing Needles (in replace of maindeck Stifles) is a really good idea. I also think that the lone Eladamri's Call is a really good idea. I also think that Chain of Vapors is not the best option for this deck.

[Volt]

Here is the decklist I am trying right now:

17 lands

4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
3 Talon Sliver
2 Winged Sliver

3 Pithing Needle

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
2 Sleight of Hand
1 Eladamri's Call

Out: Stifle
In: Pithing Needle, Sleight of Hand

This build is geared for an aggro-heavy environment. Game 1 against combo is not favorable. However, bringing 7 cards out of the sideboard (4x Meddling Mage + 3x Arcane Lab/Stifle) will swing that matchup solidly in our favor.

[Pinder]

4 Plated Sliver gives this deck 4 1cc creatures, which works well with the manabase (especially considering the cantrip/draw), and it's a 1/2 that blocks Lackey. The extra toughness helps draw creatures out of Bolt range when Crystaline Sliver is not in play, and it's an all-around great Sliver for the deck.

Alright, alright, keep Plated Sliver in the main =/. I'm still going to test a build without it, but for now I'll concede that any list we'll be actively discussing will include Plated Sliver. I won't bother you with my crazy ideas until I can back them up with more testing :tongue:.

You know what else keeps your Slivers out of Bolt range, though? Crystalline Sliver. Just saying.

As for AK in the main, I don't like it. I do, however, think it's our best bet for actual CA. It costs 2, and it's only great after you've casted 2 of them, but we don't actually have much more of a choice, do we? And don't go around suggesting Predict, either. With 8 MD cantrips we should be able to find one early, and after that each one is 2 mana for 2 cards, at least. After AK number two, numbers three and four are downright spectacular. How cool is it to Brainstorm into an AK, then use AK to draw the cards you put back? Until they print someting better, I agree that AK is our best bet, if a little slow. I'll start testing it.

As far as Stifle, I'm still really mixed on the subject. From what I can tell during testing, it's either absolutely fantastic, or incredibly dead in your hand. So far it's fantasicality (is that word?) has been enough to keep it in the main, but maybe it deserves a place in the board, or perhaps we could only cut a couple for the more versatile utility that is Pithing Needle. I mean, come on, it's Pithing Neelde. Having 2-3 maindeck can't ever be bad. And I'll admit that as long as we have a Needle on Vial, we can just counter what we would normally need to Stifle anyway.

As for counterspell, I think that 2 is probably more than enough. We only want to see it late game, and by then I'm usually sitting behind a wall of Slivers with mana left to spare. Another hard counter would be nice.

And I think that EE might be an okay choice for the main, as a 2-of. Sure, we don't really want to pop it at 2 most of the time, but it's mostly there to pop at 1 to clear half of Goblins' board and against Mongoose. Not only that, but it's also fairly great at 3 to clear the other half of Goblins' board and problem enchantments like Engineered Plague, and random stuff like Propaganda/Ghostly Prison and Trinisphere. And if we're in a matchup where we might have to pop it for 2 for it to be useful, we can always board it out games 2 and 3 and play around it during Game 1. If you know you'll have to set EE at 2 to clear the board, hold Slivers in your hand and only play enough to either hold them off or create a clock. Wait till the opportune moment, pop it, and then drop Slivers from your hand as your opponent is still recovering.

And to the 1 Call, Volt (and now Hanni too) has been fairly adamant about keeping it in. Maybe Crystalline/Muscle Sliver #5 or Talon/Winged #3 is worth it.

EDIT: After some thought, a list:

//Lands (17)
3 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
1 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains

//Creatures (15)
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
3 Plated Sliver
2 Talon Sliver
2 Winged Sliver

//Permission (8)
4 Force of Will
4 Daze


//Draw (11)
4 Brainstorm
3 Serum Visions
4 Accumulated Knowledge

//Removal (6)
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Engineered Explosives

//Utility (3)
3 Pithing Needle

And as far as Disenchant in the main or side, I think that Harmonic Sliver is probably a better choice. I saw a few at the Prerelease, and it's actually worded so that Harmonic Sliver kills an artifact or enchantment when it hits the table, not just when another Sliver hits. It costs 3, but it turns all of your other Slivers into Disenchants too. I think it's honestly the only Sliver from Time Spiral that's worth looking at here.

[Volt]

Alright, alright, keep Plated Sliver in the main =/. I'm still going to test a build without it, but for now I'll concede that any list we'll be actively discussing will include Plated Sliver. I won't bother you with my crazy ideas until I can back them up with more testing :tongue:.

You know what else keeps your Slivers out of Bolt range, though? Crystalline Sliver. Just saying.

The Plated Slivers serve as a sort of redundancy with Crystalline Sliver and Talon Sliver in that they help protect our slivers from harm. You can't always rely on having Crystalline and/or Talon in play. Plus, they're more slivers, and they only cost 1! Just saying. :wink:



As for AK in the main, I don't like it. I do, however, think it's our best bet for actual CA. It costs 2, and it's only great after you've casted 2 of them, but we don't actually have much more of a choice, do we? And don't go around suggesting Predict, either. With 8 MD cantrips we should be able to find one early, and after that each one is 2 mana for 2 cards, at least. After AK number two, numbers three and four are downright spectacular. How cool is it to Brainstorm into an AK, then use AK to draw the cards you put back? Until they print someting better, I agree that AK is our best bet, if a little slow. I'll start testing it.

There is that new blue draw spell that costs 1U, draws one card, and flashes back for 2U. That might be worth a look.

[TekTik]

Howdy,
I have read a lot of what you guys have posted here and I will be happy to playtest for you guys anytime.


There is that new blue draw spell that costs 1U, draws one card, and flashes back for 2U. That might be worth a look.


I played this in the construct this weekend and I know it's a totally different meta or whatever but it did'nt seem to help much unless i had nothing else to play, partially because i have other card-getty creatures but I would like to suggest sleight of hand or something.

-Billey The Kid, Honorary Info-Ninja :smile:

[frogboy]

How cool is it to Brainstorm into an AK, then use AK to draw the cards you put back?

Whenever I do this I want to jump off a bridge

[Pinder]

Erm, okay. So, it's not that cool. But either way, AK is the best we've got.

As for Think Twice (the card draw with Flashback that Volt mentioned), I don't really think it would work that well. Sure, it has flashback, but it only draws you one card at a time, and doesn't really provide any actual card advantage. I think that AK is a better choice here.

EDIT: But AK might not be the best choice. In order for it to be really good, it has to be a 4-of. I'm thinking that it might take up too much room and push out more utility. Maybe it might be alright as a 3 of, but we might want to start looking for other sources of card advantage that don't take up so much room in the main.

[Volt]

Erm, okay. So, it's not that cool. But either way, AK is the best we've got.

As for Think Twice (the card draw with Flashback that Volt mentioned), I don't really think it would work that well. Sure, it has flashback, but it only draws you one card at a time, and doesn't really provide any actual card advantage. I think that AK is a better choice here.

EDIT: But AK might not be the best choice. In order for it to be really good, it has to be a 4-of. I'm thinking that it might take up too much room and push out more utility. Maybe it might be alright as a 3 of, but we might want to start looking for other sources of card advantage that don't take up so much room in the main.

Ancestral Vision?

Beyond that, I don't really know what kind of card draw we can fit into the deck. We might just be stuck with trying to avoid card disadvantage (i.e. Chain of Vapor) as much as possible, and concentrate on what we can do, which is play cantrips to improve our card quality.

[Pinder]

I was beginning to think the same thing. This deck just doesn't have the room to fit in strict card advantage. We'll just have to avoid card disadvantage for the time being.

I was looking at the list on the first post, and I think we should go back to something like that. If we cut the 4 Stifles for 3 Pithing Needles, that will leave us four open slots in the main, perhaps for 3 EE and one Call. What does everyone think? The only problem I can see there is that Pithing Needle in the main makes EE for 1 a little bit worse. But we can always play around that.

Or if we wanted to move EE to the board, we can always run some more permission or cantripping in the main.

EDIT: Actually, Ancestral Vision might not be that bad....being aggro control, our games go decently long anyway. It's a horrible topdeck, but if we suspend it early, it might fill our hand later when we need it. And who in the hell has answers for suspend in Legacy? What exactly is the suspend on that, anyway? 3 or 4?

[Volt]

I was beginning to think the same thing. This deck just doesn't have the room to fit in strict card advantage. We'll just have to avoid card disadvantage for the time being.

I was looking at the list on the first post, and I think we should go back to something like that. If we cut the 4 Stifles for 3 Pithing Needles, that will leave us four open slots in the main, perhaps for 3 EE and one Call. What does everyone think? The only problem I can see there is that Pithing Needle in the main makes EE for 1 a little bit worse. But we can always play around that.

Or if we wanted to move EE to the board, we can always run some more permission or cantripping in the main.

EDIT: Actually, Ancestral Vision might not be that bad....being aggro control, our games go decently long anyway. If we suspend in early, it might fill our hand later when we need it. And who in the hell has answers for suspend in Legacy? What exactly is the suspend on that, anyway? 3 or 4?

4. And it might not be bad at all. Our games do tend to go fairly long. It certainly warrants play-testing.

[Pinder]

3 would be nicer, but I supose we could try it out. The only problem I can see is that drawing it in the late game would suck hardcore. But we can make sure that doesn't happen between Serum Visions and Brainstorm. Having multiple Visions suspended at once would just be crazy when they resolved, though.

Of course, we might not need actual CA as much as we think. Card quality is almost more important. You don't need a ton of answers, just the right ones.

[Maverick676]

If were going to be running a 2cc draw spell predict is way better than AK, with serum and brainstorms its always a 2 for 1. Plus if you happen to be psychic then it's always a 2 for 1.

Also more card draw is way better than the eldamari's call. Usually when I'm digging its for answers and not slivers.

Plated sliver is unneeded protection from bolts and such, since against decks running that kind of removal crystaline sliver should be the first sliver you play almost without exception.

I think not running stifle is a mistake,for the many reasons I've stated previously, but you guys can do whatever.

Think twice is way to slow to be run in the deck. 5 mana for 2 cards!!?? cmon guys.

Ancestral vision is great first turn, but a horrible topdeck and close to dead any turn after 2. We need cards that can get answers immediately.

[xsockmonkeyx]

The only advantage I see to predict is that you can play less than 4 in a deck and it can still be effective. With AK you have to devote the maximum number of slots for it to be of any value. If the number of slots being devoted to CA is less than 4 then Predict is the way to go.

With that said im personally for AK. I feel that what the deck is lacking is mid to late game CA and Accumulated Knowledge is the is the only card discussed to far that is always going to be good to rip off your deck mid to late game. Draw Ancestral Visions when you need an answer? gg. Draw a predict without a deck stacker? Thats about as good as your first AK.

[Pinder]

Also more card draw is way better than the eldamari's call. Usually when I'm digging its for answers and not slivers.


I'm not so sure, Mav. Yes, more card draw is good. That's why Volt and Hanni only run 1 so it won't clog the maindeck. The more I think about it, the more I start to like this as a 1 of in the main. Draw is great and we should definitely run at least 8 if not more, but being able to instantly search for whichever Sliver you might need (or, even Meddling Mage postboard) is actually a lot better than it looks on paper. Call isn't a 1-of, basically, it's Crystalline and Muscle #5. If you think of it that way, it certainly does sound appealing. And it was crazy useful when we ran 3-4 way back during the deck's inception. We don't have room for that many, but keeping 1 in the main isn't that bad of an idea.



Plated sliver is unneeded protection from bolts and such, since against decks running that kind of removal crystaline sliver should be the first sliver you play almost without exception.


Well, I agree with you there. But redundancy isn't always a bad thing in Magic.



I think not running stifle is a mistake,for the many reasons I've stated previously, but you guys can do whatever.


I'm also tempted to agree with you there. I really like Stifle, but a lot of the time I find 1-2 dead in my hand mid to late-game. If we don't cut it, we should probably shave some off the list to make room for utility.



Think twice is way to slow to be run in the deck. 5 mana for 2 cards!!?? cmon guys.


Yeah. We know.



Ancestral vision is great first turn, but a horrible topdeck and close to dead any turn after 2. We need cards that can get answers immediately.

Yeah. Visions is fun, but let's be honest, in Legacy waiting 6 turns for anything is bad.


If were going to be running a 2cc draw spell predict is way better than AK, with serum and brainstorms its always a 2 for 1.


Eh, you're probably right about that. We were more thinking about AK because we had to than because we loved it so much. Predict is probably a better choice alongside 4 Brainstorm/4 Serum Visions, and it has the added bonus of not having to run 4 for it to be useful. The only thing is, we're not Thresh. Can we really afford to be putting things into our graveyard, things that could potentially be answers or more Slivers?



Plus if you happen to be psychic then it's always a 2 for 1.


Well, you got me there. But if we were psychic, we'd know what they were going to play and have an answer ready anyway :tongue:.

[Maverick676]

The problem with AK in this deck is it means running 12 cards that only draw cards. From my past experience that is always bad, you draw into more card draw. I think impulse or predict is our best bet, as we have 2 slots left AK is out.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Actually, without AK, or predict the deck runs no card draw. Brainstorm and Serum Visions provide card quality but they do not provide any card advantage or "draw" becasue they dont increase the number of cards you have available to you to play. I feel the deck needs real draw to increase the number of cards in your hand and in play to finish the job set up by the early game.

[Pinder]

Actually, without AK, or predict the deck runs no card draw. Brainstorm and Serum Visions provide card quality but they do not provide any card advantage or "draw" becasue they dont increase the number of cards you have available to you to play. I feel the deck needs real draw(or search) to increase the number of cards in your hand and in play to finish the job set up by the early game.

Like I said earlier, it's not necessarily about having more answers, but about having the right answers. Having strict as opposed to virtual card advantage can be nice, but not if it comes at the expense of utility.

And hell, if we want to spend two mana to put something relevant into our hand, we could always, you know, run Call.

If we're searching for card draw in particular though, I retract my statement about Predict. With 8 cantrips main, we can safely squeeze in 2 or 3 of them to finish up the job late game. The only problem I can see with them is that I don't like pitching the top card into your yard for it. Of course, between Brainstorm/Serum Visions, we can always make sure it's a card we don't really need (land, removal against combo, etc).

[Hanni]

I'm still confused on why you guys are debating Plated Sliver. It's a 1cc 1/2 that gives all your other guys 1 extra toughness. Waiting to play the other creatures in your hand until you draw Crystalline Sliver sounds like a bad idea to me and your not going to draw Crystalline Sliver early game every game (4/60, or 1/15). It's a solid 1cc drop that allows you to play it and still have available mana to play cantrips or something else. It's a Sliver so it still gets boosted by your other Slivers. It's ability stacks, so excess Plated Slivers still provide a benefit. It also helps to put your Slivers out of Pyroclasm range. Don't forget that it blocks a turn 1 Lackey and lives.

As for card draw, I believe this deck needs it. Cantrips are great and all but you want actual card advantage too. 12 draw spells isn't too much for an aggro/control deck... especially with such a low cc. Your hand is going to empty very fast some games (especially with card disadvantage from FoW) and your going to want to replenish it, not rely on topdeck/cantrips. Predict is a solid option but without a cantrip it is more often a 1-for-1 which defeats its purpose as card advantage. With AK, only the first one is ever going to be a 1-for-1. After that, its 2-for-1 or better. It does require the deck to dedicate 4 slots to AK, but I think that's fine. I run 4 Dark Confidant + 8 cantrip in my UWb Fish deck and the 12 slots alotted to card draw works great. If you don't have room for 4 AK's then Predict is probably the way to go.

[Volt]

I'm still confused on why you guys are debating Plated Sliver. It's a 1cc 1/2 that gives all your other guys 1 extra toughness. Waiting to play the other creatures in your hand until you draw Crystalline Sliver sounds like a bad idea to me and your not going to draw Crystalline Sliver early game every game (4/60, or 1/15). It's a solid 1cc drop that allows you to play it and still have available mana to play cantrips or something else. It's a Sliver so it still gets boosted by your other Slivers. It's ability stacks, so excess Plated Slivers still provide a benefit. It also helps to put your Slivers out of Pyroclasm range. Don't forget that it blocks a turn 1 Lackey and lives.

As for card draw, I believe this deck needs it. Cantrips are great and all but you want actual card advantage too. 12 draw spells isn't too much for an aggro/control deck... especially with such a low cc. Your hand is going to empty very fast some games (especially with card disadvantage from FoW) and your going to want to replenish it, not rely on topdeck/cantrips. Predict is a solid option but without a cantrip it is more often a 1-for-1 which defeats its purpose as card advantage. With AK, only the first one is ever going to be a 1-for-1. After that, its 2-for-1 or better. It does require the deck to dedicate 4 slots to AK, but I think that's fine. I run 4 Dark Confidant + 8 cantrip in my UWb Fish deck and the 12 slots alotted to card draw works great. If you don't have room for 4 AK's then Predict is probably the way to go.

I agree that Plated Sliver needs to stay maindeck.

I disagree that we need card draw. It especially doesn't need AK, which is pretty crappy, especially with the increasing amount of maindeck graveyard hate in today's metagame. Do you see Thresh running AK? No. They used to, until they wised up. Some modern builds of Thresh don't even run Predict, and do quite well. One of the reasons to run card draw is to replenish threats. We don't generally need to replenish our threats, as they are resistant to removal. Right now, I'm running 2 Sleight of Hand in addition to the prerequisite 4 Brainstorm + 4 Serum Visions. I could see replacing the 2 SoH with 2 Predict, but that's as far as I would go. I'm not going to remove any other cards to make room for additional mediocre card draw spells.

[Maverick676]

I'm not going to remove any other cards to make room for additional mediocre card draw spells.

I second that motion.

As to waiting to play other slivers until crystaline is out. What's the problem? Drop the sliver that makes your other slivers damn near invincible ,before you drop the more vulnerable slivers seems like a damn good idea to me. This deck is not strait aggro, it is quite slow aggro-control. If you play this deck like it is strait aggro, or even like quick aggro-control, YOU WILL LOSE.

Also Brainstorm and Serum Visions do act as a draw engine in this deck. Remember that a draw engine's purpose is not to strictly generate card advantage, but to instead allow a deck to find the answers it needs to win. Therefore even if all brainstorm and serum visions do is generate card quality it still allows the deck to find its threats and answers and thus can be considered a draw engine.

EDIT: As for plated sliver I'm taking him out of the main for reasons that have already been stated.

[Volt]

EDIT: As for plated sliver I'm taking him out of the main for reasons that have already been stated.

Actually, I'm still not really clear on the reasoning behind that. Can you elaborate, and tell me which matchups are being improved, and how? I'd also like to know how the sans-Plated Sliver version play-tests against Goblins.

[Maverick676]

Well about the only matchup that is not Improved is Goblins. Plated is a great answer to the first turn lackey. After that Talon makes your slivers toughness largely irrelavant.

In general you beat other aggro decks with the first strike, so running addition draw lets you easily find more muscles and the necessary crystaline and talon slivers as well as more removal/counters.

Against combo and control more draw lets you find more countermagic, more muslces to create a faster clock, and also to get multiple crystaline slivers which allows you to recover from board sweep. All you need to keep pressure is one crystaline and one muscle sliver. Against combo of course you play as many slivers as quickly as possible.

[xsockmonkeyx]

This is the current deck list im testing.

CoV and Stifle were pissing me off because a lot of the time they would just sit in my hand doing nothing or become nightmare cards to topdeck. I wanted a couple more hard counters in there to maintain control.

AK was too inconsistant for me during testing to justify the 4 slots they were taking up. I added 2x Impulse and 2x Call to suplement the cantrips instead.

I upped the count of plate sliver to 4 and dropped a winged. As a 1 drop sliver that does anything relevent Plated is awesome in this build . With Eladamri's Call I can go-go-gadget flying or first strike those little buggers when necessary so I want to drop them early and often.

Land
1 Plains
1 Islands
4 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
1 Savannah
3 Tropical Island
4 Tundra

Guys
4 Plated Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
1 Winged Sliver
3 Talon Sliver

StP
4 Swords to Plowshares

Control
2 Counterspell
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Pithing Needle

Cantrips
4 Serum Visions
4 Brainstorm

New Stuff
2 Impulse
2 Eladamri's Call

Side-Board
2 Arcane Laboratory
2 Worship
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Ray of Revelation
4 Meddling Mage
2 Stifle

[Obfuscate Freely]

Would somebody like to spell out why Plated Sliver isn't simply better than Talon Sliver? You guys keep talking about cutting the former, but you seem to be enamored with the latter, and I don't see a big difference between the two effects.

Against Goblins, Talon Sliver lets you kill Piledrivers without issue, but Plated gives you an answer to Lackey. There isn't a clear advantage here.

First Strike and +0/+1 are identical against Gro, unless you end up double blocking a lot.

Plated is obviously better against combo decks.

The bottom line is that there aren't many creatures in Legacy with greater power than toughness, aside from 2/1s, which are easily beaten with Plated + Muscle or Crystalline. I think you should talk about cutting Talon before cutting Plated.

[Hanni]

AK might not be the way to go but I don't think comparing it to how it works in Gro is entirely relevant. I can see it making the sideboard Jotun Grunts a bad idea, but the reason why it's not great in Thresh is because they already have a weakness to graveyard hate and AK just makes more cards in their deck vulnerable. In this deck though, anyone boarding in Tormod's Crypts to shut down your AK's is simply wasting card space.

Card advantage in itself is typically better than cantrip card quality because your still drawing the same 2-3 cards that the cantrip would allow you to manipulate except they all go to your hand. This is even greater if used after a Serum Visions (so you ensure the 2-3 cards you draw with AK are better) or when used before a Brainstorm (so you can increase the quality of the 2-3 cards you just drew). Brainstorm is more effective when your hand is big, not when it's a topdeck. AK might not be the best way to go but I still think this deck needs some form of card advantage. Digging for specific answers may be nice but it's still nicer to draw multiple answers.

As far as waiting to play Slivers until Crystalline Sliver is on the board... won't that make your matchup against other aggro alot more difficult? Especially against Goblins or Affinity, where you will need some blockers to stop the early game aggression that the blue based control is not going to answer completely (even with StP's). I'd think that you'd want to play Slivers as often as possible, using countermagic to protect them until you can play a Crystalline Sliver... not necessarily to go on the aggressive right away (because your right, this is aggro/control) but to put up a defensive. Either way, Plated Sliver is still relevant in my opinion for more reasons than I can count on 1 hand.

[Volt]

Would somebody like to spell out why Plated Sliver isn't simply better than Talon Sliver? You guys keep talking about cutting the former, but you seem to be enamored with the latter, and I don't see a big difference between the two effects.

Against Goblins, Talon Sliver lets you kill Piledrivers without issue, but Plated gives you an answer to Lackey. There isn't a clear advantage here.

First Strike and +0/+1 are identical against Gro, unless you end up double blocking a lot.

Plated is obviously better against combo decks.

The bottom line is that there aren't many creatures in Legacy with greater power than toughness, aside from 2/1s, which are easily beaten with Plated + Muscle or Crystalline. I think you should talk about cutting Talon before cutting Plated.


The Talon Slivers are very important because they allow you to dominate the battlefield in a way that Plated typically does not. You mentioned the Gro matchup, which is actually a great example. Gro might swing at you with their Nimble Mongoose if you have Crystalline + Plated, but they won't swing at you if you have Crystalline + Talon. Later in the game, they won't even be able to swing at you with a thresholded Mystic Enforcer if you have Winged, Talon, and another couple of slivers. I assure you, these situations do come up, as I've played the matchup a fair number of times now. The key is that you can stack-block bigger creatures without having to trade. Also, having a Talon out will often allow you to swing into a horde of weenies without fear, because trying to stack-block and kill a 3/4 first striker takes a lot of weenies. I would never cut Talon Slivers from the deck. We started out with 2 in the first list, and quickly decided to add a 3rd one, because they are that good.

That said, you're pretty much preaching to the choir here. I can't see how cutting Plated will improve any of our matchups, including combo. As I said before, 1st turn Plated + 2nd turn Muscle is a pretty good clock against combo. If you do the math, you'll see it's basically the same clock as 2nd turn Crystalline + 3rd turn Muscle.

[imran]

"Later in the game, they won't even be able to swing at you with a thresholded Mystic Enforcer if you have Winged, Talon, and another couple of slivers."

That means you are quite often in the situation of trying to defend against a tresholded Mystic Enforcer?
What does that mean for me? Due to the fact, that ***** is running nearly the same amount of Lands, this means, they need 4 Lands in play. If I assume, that Stifle is working the way you thought of (killing Fetchlands against *****), I can assume that you have quite often 4 Lands in play. The question is now:

Why are you against Slivers, that cost more than 2?
Especially against *****, how do you want to win against creatures, that have a 6/6 body (aka Mystic Enforcer)?

The easiest way to win against it is to play with the Shifting Sliver as a one of, that is searchable with Eladamri's Call.

I am playing with Slivers since a few years, and over the time, results showed, that in most of the situations I would rather prefer a Shifting Sliver than a winged Sliver, especially in a situation of an Alpha Strike.
And the worst, that could happen is to pitch it to Force.

[Volt]

"Later in the game, they won't even be able to swing at you with a thresholded Mystic Enforcer if you have Winged, Talon, and another couple of slivers."

That means you are quite often in the situation of trying to defend against a tresholded Mystic Enforcer?
What does that mean for me? Due to the fact, that ***** is running nearly the same amount of Lands, this means, they need 4 Lands in play. If I assume, that Stifle is working the way you thought of (killing Fetchlands against *****), I can assume that you have quite often 4 Lands in play. The question is now:

Why are you against Slivers, that cost more than 2?
Especially against *****, how do you want to win against creatures, that have a 6/6 body (aka Mystic Enforcer)?

The easiest way to win against it is to play with the Shifting Sliver as a one of, that is searchable with Eladamri's Call.

I am playing with Slivers since a few years, and over the time, results showed, that in most of the situations I would rather prefer a Shifting Sliver than a winged Sliver, especially in a situation of an Alpha Strike.
And the worst, that could happen is to pitch it to Force.

The Thresh matchup tends to go into the late game, sometimes into the late late game. So, yeah, you'll have enough land to cast expensive slivers like Shifting Sliver. However, that is not typical for most of our matchups. In the great majority of matchups, Winged Sliver is much better, because it is cheaper and serves pretty much the same purpose.

Against Gro, the idea is to hold off the Mystic Enforcer until you can a) Swords it, or b) build up a large enough army of slivers to simply swing through the Enforcer FTW. Btw, the longer the game goes against Gro, the more you are favored. I even won a game against Gro by decking him (well, technically he scooped a few turns before he was about to be decked).

EDIT: I wanted to add this... While stifling a fetch land in the first couple of turns can turn out to be crippling to the Gro player, you'll generally want to use those Stifles to negate Engineered Explosives. If you're running Pithing Needle instead of Stifle, the first one should be set to EE. The second one should be set to Polluted Delta.

[Maverick676]

Cutting talon sliver is not an option in this deck, unless the metagame becomes nothing but combo and control. First strike is just simply too dominating against creature strategies. Case in point: I played a game against R/G beats, I dropped a second turn crystaline sliver and passed the turn. She dropped a second turn troll (with birds accelaration) and passed the turn. Then I droped a third turn talon, which was followed by an immediate scoop from her. LOL.

EDIT:



1st turn Plated + 2nd turn Muscle is a pretty good clock against combo. If you do the math, you'll see it's basically the same clock as 2nd turn Crystalline + 3rd turn Muscle.


That's exactly my point, you might loose one turn against combo, but with additional card draw you will be able to find more countermagic and stifle. Although this point is kind of irrelevant since solidarity is already an favorable match, and Iggy-pop is beaten with mage and arcane lab since we have a snowball's chance in hell of racing them.

And just to brag I thought I'd tell everyone I picked up one of those judge promo meddling mages at the prerelease. Their freaking SHINY!!!!!!

[imran]

The Thresh matchup tends to go into the late game, sometimes into the late late game. So, yeah, you'll have enough land to cast expensive slivers like Shifting Sliver. However, that is not typical for most of our matchups. In the great majority of matchups, Winged Sliver is much better, because it is cheaper and serves pretty much the same purpose.

Against Gro, the idea is to hold off the Mystic Enforcer until you can a) Swords it, or b) build up a large enough army of slivers to simply swing through the Enforcer FTW. Btw, the longer the game goes against Gro, the more you are favored. I even won a game against Gro by decking him (well, technically he scooped a few turns before he was about to be decked).

EDIT: I wanted to add this... While stifling a fetch land in the first couple of turns can turn out to be crippling to the Gro player, you'll generally want to use those Stifles to negate Engineered Explosives. If you're running Pithing Needle instead of Stifle, the first one should be set to EE. The second one should be set to Polluted Delta.


So the points you are making are:

1. Swords the Enforcer
2. Build up an Army large enough to swing through

Regarding point 1, ***** has also counters, so this is maybe not the perfect plan.

Regarding point 2, building a big army is interesting, how big should be army be? If I have an Army like, Crystalline, Talon, Muscle and Winged, than I have 9 power on the table. As far as I can see, I dont want to loose a single sliver by attacking into an Enforcer, right?
Neither the Enforcer can attack, nor can I. If I draw as the next card a Musle Sliver, what happens? Nothing special, I have a bigger army, but I need to attack with a minimum of 2 creatures to punch through damage while considering the fact, that I will loose one creature in each attack, and making my defense vulnerable (due to the fact, that I need 6+ power on the table to kill the enforcer if he decides to attack). If I draw a shifting sliver, I can attack with 3 damage a turn, putting ***** on a clock, WITHOUT loosing a single sliver. Sounds for me like the better plan, what do you think about it?
I am suggesting the Shifting Sliver and the Winged Sliver as a combination of 1 Shifting and 2 Winged. Try it out, it is better, than it seems to be.

[Maverick676]

I am suggesting the Shifting Sliver and the Winged Sliver as a combination of 1 Shifting and 2 Winged. Try it out, it is better, than it seems to be.


If this situation you stated arrises you simply keep building up slivers until you get 4 muscles out, get enough slivers to just simply overwhelm the thresh player, or wait until the thresh player concedes, since they have no hope of beating you. The longer the game goes the further your creatures outclass thresh's creatures. Shifting sliver is really suboptimal, if you wanted to go this route you would be better off to just use shadow sliver and outrace them.

[Volt]

So the points you are making are:

1. Swords the Enforcer
2. Build up an Army large enough to swing through

Regarding point 1, ***** has also counters, so this is maybe not the perfect plan.

Regarding point 2, building a big army is interesting, how big should be army be? If I have an Army like, Crystalline, Talon, Muscle and Winged, than I have 9 power on the table. As far as I can see, I dont want to loose a single sliver by attacking into an Enforcer, right?
Neither the Enforcer can attack, nor can I. If I draw as the next card a Musle Sliver, what happens? Nothing special, I have a bigger army, but I need to attack with a minimum of 2 creatures to punch through damage while considering the fact, that I will loose one creature in each attack, and making my defense vulnerable (due to the fact, that I need 6+ power on the table to kill the enforcer if he decides to attack). If I draw a shifting sliver, I can attack with 3 damage a turn, putting ***** on a clock, WITHOUT loosing a single sliver. Sounds for me like the better plan, what do you think about it?
I am suggesting the Shifting Sliver and the Winged Sliver as a combination of 1 Shifting and 2 Winged. Try it out, it is better, than it seems to be.

You wait until you have enough to swing FTW in one fell swoop. It might take 7-9 slivers, but so what? If you survive the early game against Gro, there is a sense of inevitability that you will win. The only cards you have to worry about are Engineered Explosives and/or Worship. That's assuming they're even running those cards. Chances are they're running 0-2 EE maindeck, and 1-2 Worship in the sideboard. We have answers for those cards.

Shifting Sliver might be useful in the specific example of the Gro matchup, but it is not strictly necessary. It is too expensive for most other matchups.

[Morim_Brightsmoke]

Earlier someone mentioned that on the whole the new slivers were unplayable. I would like to ask why sidewinder is viewed as such. It's ability is good, and it stacks, why is that worse then anything else? In fact i would venture that it is as good as talon sliver at one less cost. True it is worse on defense but it can stack to be better when attacking.

[Maverick676]

Earlier someone mentioned that on the whole the new slivers were unplayable. I would like to ask why sidewinder is viewed as such. It's ability is good, and it stacks, why is that worse then anything else? In fact i would venture that it is as good as talon sliver at one less cost. True it is worse on defense but it can stack to be better when attacking.

Sidewinder has a great ability at 1cc and in some type of full aggro build he would be almost an auto-include. However in our build flanking is not the same as first strike since we use it on the defensive. By the time we start attacking through creatures our slivers have flying and flanking becomes irrelavant. If only flanking worked like bushido then ZOMG this guy would be the shit!!!

[Volt]

Earlier someone mentioned that on the whole the new slivers were unplayable. I would like to ask why sidewinder is viewed as such. It's ability is good, and it stacks, why is that worse then anything else? In fact i would venture that it is as good as talon sliver at one less cost. True it is worse on defense but it can stack to be better when attacking.

Sidewinder is pretty good, actually. If we didn't already have a one-drop that we liked a little better (Plated), it would probably make the cut. The fact is, though, that abilities that only work when attacking (i.e. flanking) are not as useful to this deck. This deck generally needs to play defense in the early part of the game. This isn't a super-fast beatdown deck. As far as Talon Sliver goes, it's one of the reasons this deck is so good. It's good on defense and offense. If you doubt how important the first striking is, just try playing the deck for a while.

EDIT: Lol. I keep coming in a couple minutes behind Mav on the responses.

[Goblin Snowman]

@ Everyone who was earlier discussing Predict in this deck. I really don't like it. Hell, I'd run Telling Time over it, since it digs deeper and doesn't Cycle without another cantrip. You don't care about having cards in the Graveyard, so the few times it's better are against E. or M. Tutor, or with Brainstorm. Just a few thoughts.

[Maverick676]

@ Everyone who was earlier discussing Predict in this deck. I really don't like it. Hell, I'd run Telling Time over it, since it digs deeper and doesn't Cycle without another cantrip. You don't care about having cards in the Graveyard, so the few times it's better are against E. or M. Tutor, or with Brainstorm. Just a few thoughts.

It's okay to disagree with predict, hell I don't like it that much myself. But telling time?! seriously that card sucks something major. Impulse > telling time by far.

[Benie Bederios]

I think he wasn't meaning Telling Time is good, in fact I hope he wasn't. He just want to say that EVEN Telling Time is better in this deck Predict, and I must agree. As for CA, you guys have to remember that EE is CA too. And you only need CA in the early game to avoid a rush. With this I come back on my statement where I said EE is bad. We only need something else next to that, because other CA engines( LftL, Ringleader, FoF) can power it out. There were times I sad with 1 or 2 cards in hand and my opponent manage to resolve a Ringleader or got his drawengine online, and if that happens we will loose the game. How about Fact or Fiction, it's expensive but it can break games.

[Pinder]

I gave FoF some passing thought, but ultimately conceded that it's too expensive for this deck. But maybe as a 2-of for the late game against Gro and the like might not be a bad idea. If we use the cantrips for card quality in the early game, then we can use these to fill our hand back up after we play a bunch more things. It's worth a try, I suppose.

And ditto about Sidewinder Sliver. If this deck was more agressive, he would be fan-freaking-tastic in it, but as it stands this deck tends to sit around a lot while it establishes control and tempo. We didn't mean that it's strictly unplayable, just in this particular deck. Plated is a better one drop for what we're aiming for here.

As far as new Slivers that could see play, I think that Sidewinder, Harmonic, and Firewake are all the cream of the crop this time around. And also perhaps Spinneret and Ghostflame. Their abilities aren't quite so relevant, but they are warm 2/2's for 2.

[Goblin Snowman]

I think he wasn't meaning Telling Time is good, in fact I hope he wasn't. He just want to say that EVEN Telling Time is better in this deck Predict, and I must agree.

For people who need clarifacation, yes. There are a mulititude of far better draw spells in the 2cc range. I was using a card that everyone sees as bad, and pointing out that it's better than Predict. I hope to God that you can see what I'm getting at here.

[Maverick676]

For people who need clarifacation, yes. There are a mulititude of far better draw spells in the 2cc range. I was using a card that everyone sees as bad, and pointing out that it's better than Predict. I hope to God that you can see what I'm getting at here.

Srry bout that I misunderstood. So we all agree that telling time is horrible, Horray!!! (much drinking and rejoicing ensues).

[Volt]

I had also considered Fact or Fiction as a 1 or 2 of, but I think it's going to be an essentially dead card in some matchups due to the 4cc.

I'm not seeing anything in the way of card draw that thrills me. I think card selection is the best we can hope for. I prefer to stick to 1cc cantrips, because they have the added benefit of helping us draw out of 1-land hands, which are common with this deck.

[TekTik]

I will honestly say that I havent read the entire thread but i have some cards that might be good and could be considered 1cc "cantrips". Sleight of hand, Portent, opt, peek, disrupt. Hopefully you guys know what all of those do. Useful? idk and can you tell me what colors you guys are running, I think it's just G/W/U...

-hit me back

[xsockmonkeyx]

I'm not seeing anything in the way of card draw that thrills me. I think card selection is the best we can hope for. I prefer to stick to 1cc cantrips, because they have the added benefit of helping us draw out of 1-land hands, which are common with this deck.

Im beginning to feel the same way. Theres just nothing out there which is going to provide decent draw that doesnt totally wreck the build. AK was too inconsitant and Predict is crap, period. Right now im running 2 Impulse instead. Its not CA or 1 cc but it is awesome instant dig.

[Pinder]

I agree. I think our best bet for card advantage is to wait until they print something that works for us. I also agree that impulse is our best bet until then.

EDIT: Oh, and



I will honestly say that I havent read the entire thread but i have some cards that might be good and could be considered 1cc "cantrips". Sleight of hand, Portent, opt, peek, disrupt. Hopefully you guys know what all of those do. Useful? idk and can you tell me what colors you guys are running, I think it's just G/W/U...


I would honestly suggest reading the entire thread before posting, even if it is 17 pages. It can be tiresome, but it will prove very insightful. As to Sleight of Hand, Portent, Opt, Peek, and Disrupt, we've discussed all but Peek already, and I can tell you right now we're not running Peek. And yeah, it's U/W/g.

EDIT AGAIN: Or 19 pages. Hot damn.

[Hanni]

I still think I'd run a draw engine of 4 Brainstorm, 4 Serum Visions, and 4 Accumulated Knowledge. The first AK might suck but after that your getting 2 or better. With the cantrip available to the deck, I don't see a problem drawing into at least 2 a game. Although I'd probably run Tormod's Crpyts instead of Jotun Grunt in the sideboard if I did so. Actually, I wish I could just fit in Dark Confidant and be done with it (I'm too accustomed to it from my UWb Fish deck, Bob is my favorite card). I really only added my input here to try to help out this decks progress since blue based aggro/control is something I'm familiar with.

Here's an idea:

Lands (18)
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Plains

Creatures (19)
1 Winged Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
2 Talon Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Dark Confidant
4 Crystalline Sliver

Spells (23)
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Eladamri's Call
3 Pithing Needle

Probably not the greatest idea, since the manabase suffers dearly, but at least it solves the card advantage issue.

[xsockmonkeyx]

I still think I'd run a draw engine of 4 Brainstorm, 4 Serum Visions, and 4 Accumulated Knowledge. The first AK might suck but after that your getting 2 or better. With the cantrip available to the deck, I don't see a problem drawing into at least 2 a game. Although I'd probably run Tormod's Crpyts instead of Jotun Grunt in the sideboard if I did so. Actually, I wish I could just fit in Dark Confidant and be done with it (I'm too accustomed to it from my UWb Fish deck, Bob is my favorite card). I really only added my input here to try to help out this decks progress since blue based aggro/control is something I'm familiar with.

Here's an idea:

Lands (18)
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Plains

Creatures (19)
1 Winged Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
2 Talon Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Dark Confidant
4 Crystalline Sliver

Spells (23)
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Eladamri's Call
3 Pithing Needle

Probably not the greatest idea, since the manabase suffers dearly, but at least it solves the card advantage issue.

Adding a fourth color to accommodate a non-sliver is going to fly like a rock in this thread.

[Hanni]

Adding a fourth color to accommodate a non-sliver is going to fly like a rock in this thread.

Yea I know, I just figured I'd post it anyway. Personally, I'd go with 4 AK but no one seemed to like that idea either.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Yea I know, I just figured I'd post it anyway. Personally, I'd go with 4 AK but no one seemed to like that idea either.

I liked the AK idea. Then I tested it and found it to be too inconsistant to justify the 4 slots.

[Maverick676]

I still think I'd run a draw engine of 4 Brainstorm, 4 Serum Visions, and 4 Accumulated Knowledge. The first AK might suck but after that your getting 2 or better. With the cantrip available to the deck, I don't see a problem drawing into at least 2 a game. Although I'd probably run Tormod's Crpyts instead of Jotun Grunt in the sideboard if I did so. Actually, I wish I could just fit in Dark Confidant and be done with it (I'm too accustomed to it from my UWb Fish deck, Bob is my favorite card). I really only added my input here to try to help out this decks progress since blue based aggro/control is something I'm familiar with.

Here's an idea:

Lands (18)
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Plains

Creatures (19)
1 Winged Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
2 Talon Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Dark Confidant
4 Crystalline Sliver

Spells (23)
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Eladamri's Call
3 Pithing Needle

Probably not the greatest idea, since the manabase suffers dearly, but at least it solves the card advantage issue.

Look you can't hope to support a 4 color mana base on 18 land. Confidant is great card advantage, but is totally wrong for this deck. We have no out such as cabal therapy should the life loss get dangerous and no way to seriously exploit him such as sensei's top. Also with only 7 counters and zero stifles (to deal with ringleader, EE, ect.) you have no hope of protecting him, which means he won't generate the card advantage you want.

As for Accumulated Knowledge, I don't see why were still debating this. AK is a terrible card if it isn't with Intuition. The argument that the first one is bad tends to exclude it from competitive play, as you never want to run bad cards.

A core of the deck has already been agreed upon, tested, and proven. Wild alterations to the deck ,such as changing its colors or lessening its counterbase to less than 7 counters, are counterproductive and cause all of us to take your opinions with a grain of salt.

[Hanni]

Inconsistent how? Even if you only see 1 in a game, it's not going to wreck the game for you... but the games where you actually get to draw 3 cards from it should justify inconsistency's. It's not that AK is amazing in the deck, it's that it's the only realistic form of card advantage that is available. 8 cantrips are plenty enough cantrips... more cantrips will increase card quality further, but the deck needs card advantage far more.

EDIT:


Look you can't hope to support a 4 color mana base on 18 land. Confidant is great card advantage, but is totally wrong for this deck. We have no out such as cabal therapy should the life loss get dangerous and no way to seriously exploit him such as sensei's top. Also with only 7 counters and zero stifles (to deal with ringleader, EE, ect.) you have no hope of protecting him, which means he won't generate the card advantage you want.

As for Accumulated Knowledge, I don't see why were still debating this. AK is a terrible card if it isn't with Intuition. The argument that the first one is bad tends to exclude it from competitive play, as you never want to run bad cards.

A core of the deck has already been agreed upon, tested, and proven. Wild alterations to the deck ,such as changing its colors or lessening its counterbase to less than 7 counters, are counterproductive and cause all of us to take your opinions with a grain of salt.

Wow okay I was just tossing some random ideas out, not trying to "ruin" your deck and make you discredit my trying to help you. I'm gonna just stop posting in this thread now.

[Maverick676]

Alright enough about AK. Lets do alittle math shall we?

If you happen to draw 3 AK's in a game thats a total of 6 cards drawn for those 3 cards spent.

Now predict with the 8 cantrips in the deck will almost always draw 2 cards whether or not there are others in the graveyard.

So if you plaw 3 predicts you get 6 cards for three cards spent and none of them are bad.

Now if you only were to draw 2 Aks thats 3 cards drawn for 2 cards spent. Whereas 2 predicts would be 4 cards drawn for 2 cards spent.

Does everyone see the point I'm trying to make here?

EDIT:


Wow okay I was just tossing some random ideas out, not trying to "ruin" your deck and make you discredit my trying to help you. I'm gonna just stop posting in this thread now.

YAY!!!!

[xsockmonkeyx]

Now predict with the 8 cantrips in the deck will almost always draw 2 cards whether or not there are others in the graveyard.

So if you plaw 3 predicts you get 6 cards for three cards spent and none of them are bad.

Now if you only were to draw 2 Aks thats 3 cards drawn for 2 cards spent. Whereas 2 predicts would be 4 cards drawn for 2 cards spent.

Well, best case scenario you would need 2 Brainstorms/Visions for those predicts to draw 2 so thats another 2 cards into the cost. This means predict is closer to 4 cards drawn for 4 cards spent plus some brainstormy goodness.

They are both suboptimal choices. Its like choosing between giant douche and turd sandwich IMO.

[Volt]

@Mav: You've been getting your jerk on lately. What's up with that? Chill a little.

@Hanni: Thank you for your suggestions and interest in this deck. Honestly, though, I don't think this deck "needs" AK or Predict. A couple Predicts might be okay, but AK is really mediocre and not worth opening up 4 slots for. In any case, this deck seems to do quite well without those cards.

[Nightmare]

Holy cow. I just stumbled on this thread, and noticed the debate that was clarified in the Threshold thread like 6 months ago. Predict is a better draw engine than AK in that deck because it boosts thresh. AK is probably better in this deck because you don't care about thresh. Seriously, everyone who is active in this thread should go to the archives and read the entire threshold thread (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=626), and then read the UGW thresh (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3985) thread in the LMF, and then continue this one. For real. Go do it. Now.

[Volt]

Holy cow. I just stumbled on this thread, and noticed the debate that was clarified in the Threshold thread like 6 months ago. Predict is a better draw engine than AK in that deck because it boosts thresh. AK is probably better in this deck because you don't care about thresh. Seriously, everyone who is active in this thread should go to the archives and read the entire threshold thread (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=626), and then read the UGW thresh (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3985) thread in the LMF, and then continue this one. For real. Go do it. Now.


What I got from that whole thing is that pretty much no one likes AK, and Predict is only decent if you're running a lot of cards (i.e. more than 8) to set up the top of the deck. That puts us back at square 1.

[Maverick676]

I still think that predict is our best option since we would only be running 2 or so of them. I really don't see a problem with supporting 1 predict on average in a game. Of course thats really not much card advantage so I not sure it would even be useful to do so.

Why are we so obsessed with a huge draw engine anyways? The deck does fine using cantrips, granted some matchups need to be played conservatively but overall we get CA of most decks by making their creatures basically worthless. Virtual card advantage is not the same as actual card advantage but it is still quite useful. If were so worried about needing CA because of sweepers then why don't we just run a few extra counters and adjust our playstyle accordingly when we face those decks.

[Pinder]

@Mav: You've been getting your jerk on lately. What's up with that? Chill a little.

QFT. Diplomacy goes a lot longer way than asshattery. Simmer down, man. Try and be nice when you're making your points, however stupid they may be.

So, in summation:

Predict

Pros: With the amount of Cantrips in the deck, we should be able to turn it into a 2-for-1 a lot of times.

Cons: We're not Threshold. Pitching the top card of our library isn't good for us. Couple the top card with the cantrip we'll have to spend to set it up, and that's three cards we're losing to gain 2. See what kind of point I'm making here? The top card contributes to Threshold to offset the loss in Thresh, but does absolutely nothing for us.

Accumulated Knowledge

Pros: It's raw card advantage. The first is admittedly not cost effective, but each one thereafter is 2 cards for 2 mana or better. Numbers 3 and 4 are crazy good.

Cons: In order to actually be able to play numbers 3 and 4, we have to devote 4 slots to AK in the main. This deck currently doesn't have room for that without losing a lot of utility.

Now, in terms of AK vs. Predict, my ruling is that, if we had room, AK would probably be better for us. But we don't. So we shouldn't run either one of them. Didn't we decide this on the last fucking page? Until Wizards prints a Sliver ringleader, I'm not sure how much raw card advantage we can fit in. For now we'll just have to avoid card disadvantage and push card quality as high as it can possibly go.

[Nightmare]

Until Wizards prints a Sliver ringleader, I'm not sure how much raw card advantage we can fit in. For now we'll just have to avoid card disadvantage and push card quality as high as it can possibly go.You could always run Brass Herald or Goblin Ringleader and Hivestone...

[Maverick676]

QFT. Diplomacy goes a lot longer way than asshattery. Simmer down, man. Try and be nice when you're making your points, however stupid they may be.


Did you just tell me to be nice and call my opinions stupid in the same sentence?




Cons: We're not Threshold. Pitching the top card of our library isn't good for us. Couple the top card with the cantrip we'll have to spend to set it up, and that's three cards we're losing to gain 2. See what kind of point I'm making here? The top card contributes to Threshold to offset the loss in Thresh, but does absolutely nothing for us.


This isn't exactly true. All the cantrip costs us is mana since cantrips do replace themselves, and the card lost off the top of the library doesn't count as an actual resource since it wasn't in our hand to begin with (unless future sight is out or something) and should be something irrelevant anyway. So actually we're only spending 2 cards to draw 3 which still isn't that great. I think the point you were trying to make pinder is that predict is horrible by itself and medicore even when it is set up properly.


@Mav: You've been getting your jerk on lately. What's up with that? Chill a little.

Alright I'll stop being so mean to everyone.

[Volt]

Did you just tell me to be nice and call my opinions stupid in the same sentence?

In Pinder's defense, I'm pretty sure that last part was just bad grammar on his part.

In any case, I think we've pretty much flattened a deceased equine on the last couple of pages. A couple Predicts might be okay; aside from that, we're better off sticking to cantrips to assure card quality. That means "no" to AK. Let's move on.

[Maverick676]

In Pinder's defense, I'm pretty sure that last part was just bad grammar on his part.


No need to defend Pinder, I take no offense as I'm sure this is the case. Just pointing out a rather humorous sentence. I playtest with Pinder all the time so I know thats not what he meant.

[TekTik]

I don't mean to advertise but I would appreciate suggestions and opinions on my life deck post it's called [DECK] W/G Life. And pinder isnt the smartest guy, so don't beat him up over being not so smart. He makes up for it in funny.

[Pinder]

Oh no. I said exactly what I meant (even if it was in jest :tongue:). Here's my stance on the whole Predict/AK thing:

Predict is stupid.
AK is stupid.

I hope that clears things up.

EDIT: And Tek, please keep the discussion on CounterSliver. Life isn't some rogue deck you just thought up, it's an established (if former) archetype that was around a while back in extended. I'll agree that I'm not the smartest person, however, and that I'm really funny :tongue:.

[Maverick676]

Oh no. I said exactly what I meant (even if it was in jest :tongue:). Here's my stance on the whole Predict/AK thing:

Predict is stupid.
AK is stupid.


Horray we're all in agreement (much drinking and rejoicing ensues)

[Pinder]

Alright, now that the drinking and rejoicing is done, I present another decklist based on what we've learned:

// 17 Lands

//Dudes (16)
4 Muslce
4 Crystalline
3 Plated
3 Talon
2 Winged

//Draw (8)
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions

//Permission (9)
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Stifle

//Removal/Utility (10)
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Pithing Needle

I kept Stifle in, because it is useful (and pitches to force), but I cut it down to a 2-of because it's pretty dead after a while. I stuck in Pithing Needle because, well, it's Pithing Needle. We might also be able to shave the maindeck EE count down to 2 if someone wanted to run Call....:tongue:

Tell me what you think.

[Maverick676]

The list looks good. I don't like daze as a 3 of or stifle as a 2 of. But thats just a personal preference. I'm going to continue playing with pithing needle in the SB, But thats just a metagame call for my area. Besides not having Daze as a 4 of, I would have to say that this should be our agreed upon list.

EDIT: Although it saddens me that chain of vapor didn't make the list. Will that card ever find a home?

[Pinder]

Not unless Wizards prints some raw card advantage that works for us. Something like 'UU - Instant - Draw 2 cards'. Don't count on that anytime soon. CoV isn't a permanent enough answer to most things to make up for the card disadvantage that we create with it. It's a great tempo card, but it has too many things wrong with it.

As for Daze as a 3 of, do you really want to see them late game? How useful are they then, really? Early game is where they're at their finest. I'd honestly like to find a way to fit counterspell in there again as a 2-of for the late game hard counters, but to do that we'd have to move Pithing Needle to the board. Maybe it's better there anyway. We could always cut 3 Pithing Needle for 2 Counterspell and 1 Call, I guess.

[Volt]

The list looks good. I don't like daze as a 3 of or stifle as a 2 of. But thats just a personal preference. I'm going to continue playing with pithing needle in the SB, But thats just a metagame call for my area. Besides not having Daze as a 4 of, I would have to say that this should be our agreed upon list.

EDIT: Although it saddens me that chain of vapor didn't make the list. Will that card ever find a home?

You know, I was wishing I had CoV when I was playing against Reanimator last Friday night. Bouncing that Akroma back to Nick's hand after he worked so hard to get it into play would have been pretty funny. To be honest, though, that's about the only time I can recall wishing I had CoV in the deck.

I agree, the list looks pretty good. I would probably go with 4 Daze, 2 Stifle, 2 Pithing Needle, 2 EE, and 1 Eladamri's Call (although I know I'm fighting an uphill battle with that last one). I'm still totally on the fence about Stifle vs. Pithing Needle, actually. I could see going with Mav's preference of 4 Stifles maindeck, and Pithing Needles just in the sideboard. I will say that maindecking 3 Pithing Needles (instead of Stifles) improves the Goblins matchup by about 5%, and playing 3 of each improves it by about another 5%. However, as far as overall utility against the Tier 1 gauntlet, it might actually make sense to just play Stifles maindeck. Where the Pithing Needles really start to shine is against some of the tier 2 matchups, like The Rock, Survival, Angel Stompy, Faerie Stompy, Affinity, Truffle Shuffle, Tog, etc.

[Maverick676]

As for Daze as a 3 of, do you really want to see them late game? How useful are they then, really? Early game is where they're at their finest.


Thats exactly why I always run 4. That way you have the highest chance possible of seeing it in your opening hand. Would you ever run vial as a 3 of? The principle remains the same for daze. Plus daze can be useful in multiples late game, especially when that goblin player taps out on 6th turn for that last ringleader hoping your out of counters. Daze is everything you could want in a counterspell, it's free, amazingly effective, and everytime it counters a threat over 3cc your opponent feels like you just hit them over the head with a shovel (hence the name).

EDIT:


1 Eladamri's Call (although I know I'm fighting an uphill battle with that last one). I don't think there's much point in debating about this card. It is just one slot after all and you've appeared to have good results with it. Infact I think I'll test it as a one-of for a few games at least and see how I like it.

[Team-Hero]

Instead of Visions run Remand.
Instead of Daze run Counterspell.

Also, think about running Annul considering that most of the spells that can hurt you are either artifact or enchantment. EngPlague, Humilidy, Trinasphere, Iscochron Sept, Chalice for 2, Deed.

[Pinder]

Um......yeah.

First, we're not replacing any cantrips with counterspells. This deck has a light counter suite, and it needs the cantrips to find the slivers and other answers it needs. We're not cutting Visions or Daze.

Annul is a possibility, though, but only in the board. Not maindeck. Wehave maindeck answers to a lot of artifacts in the form of EE. It takes care of Trinisphere, Chalice (although not for 0), Plague, Scepter (not that anyone runs that) and Deed (not that they wouldn't just pop it in response). Countering them would be fun, but not as a maindeck option.

As for the 3 vs. 4 Daze argument, I was simply thinking that 3 Daze is enough to see it early game, and little enough to not see it late game. I could totally see it being a 4-of. As for Call, Volt's rugged persistence has led me to believe that it might still be good, even as a 1-of. If he likes it that much, there's gotta be something to it, right?

And CoV is great against a lot of things. That's why I think we should board it against the things that it's great against. Just not in the main.

[Maverick676]

Instead of Visions run Remand.
Instead of Daze run Counterspell.

Also, think about running Annul considering that most of the spells that can hurt you are either artifact or enchantment. EngPlague, Humilidy, Trinasphere, Iscochron Sept, Chalice for 2, Deed.

THIS IS WHY I'M ANGRY ALL THE TIME ON THIS THREAD.:mad:

[Volt]

THIS IS WHY I'M ANGRY ALL THE TIME ON THIS THREAD.:mad:


Lol. Quick, somebody say something soothing!

[Pinder]

Mav, I have Ice Cream! Cold, creamy, delicious Ice Cream! Now calm down....that's right, come get the ice cream......now take a nap...good boy.

:tongue:

[Maverick676]

NEVER!!!!!:mad:

Now bring forth a human sacrifice to appease my anger...or a cookie, whichever's easier.

[Pinder]

I'm off to buy a cookie then...or a virgin. Whichever I can find first :tongue:.

[The Rack]

However Annul could be worth considering in the SB. My 2 cents.

[Pinder]

Annul is a possibility, though, but only in the board. Not maindeck. Wehave maindeck answers to a lot of artifacts in the form of EE. It takes care of Trinisphere, Chalice (although not for 0), Plague, Scepter (not that anyone runs that) and Deed (not that they wouldn't just pop it in response). Countering them would be fun, but not as a maindeck option.


I agree.

[Maverick676]

I have no objection to annul, but I think that needle usually takes up it's spot in the SB and does its job better anyways.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Ive found a counterspell combination that Im really happy with, and its all thanks to Hanni.:confused:

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Counterspell

Theres just something about that combination that is magical, I cant explain it in rational terms. It just feels like I always have the right counter at the right time.:cool:

[Volt]

Ive found a counterspell combination that Im really happy with, and its all thanks to Hanni.:confused:

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Counterspell

Theres just something about that combination that is magical, I cant explain it in rational terms. It just feels like I always have the right counter at the right time.:cool:

I was running that same exact combination for a while. It's a fairly typical configuration for UGW Gro decks. I find Counterspell to be a little clunky in this deck. Gro can play out a Nimble Mongoose and a Werebear, and then just sit back, keeping mana open for countering and cantriping. We generally can't do that. We have to spend the first several turns playing out slivers and cantriping when we can. Counterspell is usually dead weight during those turns, and frequently just ends up getting pitched to a FoW. That said, they can come in pretty handy in the late game.

[xsockmonkeyx]

I was running that same exact combination for a while. It's a fairly typical configuration for UGW Gro decks. I find Counterspell to be a little clunky in this deck. Gro can play out a Nimble Mongoose and a Werebear, and then just sit back, keeping mana open for countering and cantriping. We generally can't do that. We have to spend the first several turns playing out slivers and cantriping when we can. Counterspell is usually dead weight during those turns, and frequently just ends up getting pitched to a FoW. That said, they can come in pretty handy in the late game.

Ok, there are some rational reasons for 2x counterspell maindeck. 1) Its another hard counter 2)Its easy to sideout for more specific hate 3)It makes game 1 of the combo matchup better and 4)Its never completely dead game 1 because its counterspell and most decks out there play spells:wink: It is a bit clunky but its never short on power. I think its safe to take up 2 spots MD.

[Volt]

Ok, there are some rational reasons for 2x counterspell maindeck. 1) Its another hard counter 2)Its easy to sideout for more specific hate 3)It makes game 1 of the combo matchup better and 4)Its never completely dead game 1 because its counterspell and most decks out there play spells:wink: It is a bit clunky but its never short on power. I think its safe to take up 2 spots MD.

I'm not going to put up much of a fight, because I could go either way on this one. Counterspell is never bad, but it is certainly less good in this deck than it is in Gro. I think in an aggro-heavy environment, you're better off without them. In a control/combo-heavy environment, they're certainly justifiable as a maindeck choice.

[Pinder]

I'm inclined to agree with Volt on this one. Counterspell helps shore up our game 1 against Combo and Control, and Stifle/EE or whatever else you would cut for it help against Aggro. It really depends on what you expect to play against game 1 most times.

[Durahan]

In my opinion, 2 counterspells would be a nice addition to the main deck. I'm concerned about board sweep that comes out of nowhere and just cleans out your 4 slivers and beats you down before you can recover.

If you think about it, the only hard counter in the deck without counterspell is FoW. Now, FoW+Daze is cool and all, but when your opponents start playing around daze, your only hard counter is FoW. Throwing in a couple more hard counters would be nice to stop those WoG that really screw you.

The only answer this deck possesses against board sweep is hard counters. FoW alone won't reliably get you through matches against control. Specifically, I feel this deck has a bad matchup against Truffle Shuffle. Their discard followed by board sweep can really ruin CounterSliver's day. I realize all decks have their bad matchups (except for Thunderbluff of course), but why not improve the match a bit by adding a couple counterspells?

Counterspell is rarely a dead card in your hand. It is an answer against everything you really need to worry about. When is drawing a counterspell ever bad? The deck's overall strategy is to get in some early game disruption via countermagic along with some card quality cantrips followed by the massive attack slivers before they can truly recover the advantage. Counterspell isn't extremely terrible early game, and makes up for its early game flaws in this deck by giving it a stronger finish.

Trust me, it's terrible sitting there with your 4 untargetable, first striking 2/3's and 3/4's and on the brink of victory when your opponent busts out WoG or even double pyroclasm and you sit there wishing that chain of vapor was a counterspell. (i speak from experience lol)

[Maverick676]

If your meta has alot of control decks, such as truffle shuffle, then maindeck counterspells would be a better idea then needle or explosives. But if your meta is dominated by aggro then counterspell is just too clunky and unnecessary.

[Pinder]

I think a couple hard counters wouldn't be that bad. They certainly couldn't hurt. Maybe 2 MD and 2 in the board? That way we have some hard counters main and we can bring in more if we come up against combo/control game 1. We could side out the EEs against combo, and perhaps the Stifles against control?

EDIT: Mav has a point that the slot is really metagame dependant, but I think that this is what's been keeping us from the Open so long. We need to settle on an optimal list, regardless of meta.

[Durahan]

So I thought I'd throw out this deck list. It's pretty much Pinder's list, but I took out 3 Pithing Needles, added a Stifle, and added 2 Counterspells. This should solve the whole EE is better vs aggro whereas Counterspell is better vs control/combo issue. Personally, I really just see Pithing Needle as a sideboard card. I thought I'd also throw out a sideboard and discuss our sideboard options to get this thread into the open forum.

// 17 Lands

//Creatures (16)
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
3 Plated Sliver
3 Talon Sliver
2 Winged Sliver

//Draw (8)
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions

//Countermagic (12)
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Counterspell
3 Stifle

//Removal (7)
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives


SB:
3 Pithing Needle
3 Chill
3 Chain of Vapor
2 Worship
4 Meddling Mage

In terms of sideboard:

Pithing Needle - Hoses a myriad of stuff. Salvager game, cycling, deeds, and so on. I don't think i need to do much explaining here.

Chill - A lot of people still play the random burn decks. I thought this would be nice against random burn and an added bonus against goblins. I didn't want to rely on only worship, because I'm a bit worried about the new Krosan Grip card.

Chain of Vapor - This card has been discussed enough in this thread. It's agreed that it is helpful in many, many situations, but terrible in many, many others. Therefore, I thought I'd toss it into the board.

Worship - Worship + Crystalline will win a LOT of games.

Meddling Mage - the card that beats combo. 2/2 for 2 that names High tide and cunning wish vs. solidarity. The card that names Tendrils and Echoing truth vs. iggy pop. and so on and so on.

Feel free to enlighten me to some obvious tech I may be missing as I wrote this a bit hastily so we can get this wrapped up and into the open forums.

[Maverick676]

Why is it that we need to agree on an exact list? Alot of decks have metagame dependent slots, It was one of the things I loved about landstill.

Also I've been looking at the list and I think running needle main is a mistake. It is a very strong card, but with it out we don't want to explosives for 1 or 2, so explosives for 3 becomes our only option. It seems that one needs to go and I think explosives is a much more versitile card. This is one thing I like about stifle MD as a 4 of, It isn't hit by explosives and it stops most of needle's targets albeit less effeciently.

EDIT: Looks like me and durahan are on the same page about needle.

[Pinder]

Yeah, you have me on board about Needles too. I must say that Durahan's latest list seems to be the most streamlined combination of all of our suggestions. Plus, it probably is better to bring in Needles after we know what we're up against in G2.

Oh, and we might take out one Stifle for a maindeck Call, if you choose to go that route. It might be worth having preboard for Muscle/Crystalline #5, and I think it'll probably be good postboard as well to fetch us those Meddling Mages when we need them.

As for the board, some suggestions:

Take out Chill for Arcane Lab. It's not quite as Burn-stopping, but it still helps a little against Burn and trumps Combo, which I'm honestly more worried about than Burn at this point. I'm also wondering about Chain of Vapor in there. I realize it's great against a lot of things, but is there maybe a little more specific hate we can bring in against our problem matchups? Thresh comes to mind. Of course, Chain is probably good against Thresh's Worships, too.

For now, this is the change I'd make to the board:

3 Pithing Needle
3 Arcane Laboratory
3 Chain of Vapor
2 Worship
4 Meddling Mage

Chain is in for now, but I have this nagging feeling we can find something better.....

[xsockmonkeyx]

Feel free to enlighten me to some obvious tech I may be missing as I wrote this a bit hastily so we can get this wrapped up and into the open forums.

Arcane Lab is pretty good against combo. Im beginning to think that Mana Maza would be better because its 2cc, it hoses combo just as effectively, and as a 3 color deck we can get around it sometimes.

[Pinder]

I'm not sure how I feel about Mana Maze. Sure, I guess it hoses Iggy Pop and Solidarity pretty hardcore, and that might be merit enough to run it, but it might hamper us more than you think. If they play a blue spell (like, say, Echoing Truth or something), we can't counter it, because our counters are also blue. I think Lab is better in this case because it hoses them just as much (essentially Mana Maze makes them incapable of playing more than one spell anyway), but doesn't hose us quite as much. I do like the fact that we could probably play more than one spell per turn under Mana Maze, though. But one spell per turn is probably all we need if combo is completely hosed, right? My main worry is that Mana Maze essentially makes their blue spells uncounterable, which is less than great for us.

[Tosh]

THIS IS WHY I'M ANGRY ALL THE TIME ON THIS THREAD.:mad:
Lol. Quick, somebody say something soothing!
Mav, I have Ice Cream! Cold, creamy, delicious Ice Cream! Now calm down....that's right, come get the ice cream......now take a nap...good boy.:tongue:
NEVER!!!!!:mad: Now bring forth a human sacrifice to appease my anger...or a cookie, whichever's easier.
I'm off to buy a cookie then...or a virgin. Whichever I can find first :tongue:.

Good thing we are totally on-topic and have something relevant on every post.

Back to serious stuff, the sideboard. Here is what I think would make a good sideboard:
4x Engineered Explosives
2x Arcane Lab
2x Krosan Grip (who doesn't like uncounterable + unrespondable artifact/enchantment destruction?) or Harmonic Sliver
4x Meddling Mage
3x Chain of Vapor or Eldamari's Call (fetch mages or harmonics, only if harmonics are in)

Well, there's my two cents. We'll have to see how this pans out, I tried to include something for each match-up that seemed unfavorable.

[xsockmonkeyx]

My main worry is that Mana Maze essentially makes their blue spells uncounterable, which is less than great for us.

When would this ever be a concern? Youll never board it in against non combo and against solidarity what one card are they going to be able to cast that is going to win them the game? Vs. storm youll never need to counter any of their spells because they can only play one in a turn. Plus Meddling Mage become uncounterable.

[Pinder]

Um....you realize that we have 3 EE in the main, right? You can't really run another 4 in the board, as much as we'd like to.

Krosan Grip seems like it might be a good choice. I would replace Chain of Vapor with it though, since they serve roughly the same purpose. Harmonic Sliver might not be a bad choice either, except I'm not sure how much disenchant-style destruction we'll end up needing.

The rest of it seems pretty decent, though.



Vs. storm youll never need to counter any of their spells because they can only play one in a turn.

EDIT: I was more thinking along the lines of Chain of Vapor from Solidarity, and Echoing Truth from Iggy Pop. Solidarity can wish for CoV on their turn, and play it during yours to bounce it and then continue comboing off like nothing happened. All of Iggy's Tutors aren't blue, so it can fetch and play Echoing Truth in the same turn. If we have Mana Maze, we can't counter them, but with Lab we can just make sure we have a counter lined up for their one spell per turn.

[Durahan]

I'm gonna have to say mana maze isn't really effective vs combo as you may think. I mean think solidarity. They play blue. We want blue to be able to stop their things usually. Of course, i suppose we run blue as well, but the only blue spell we can play to actually stop them from comboing off on our turn is brainstorm.

That being said, I think Arcane Lab + Meddling Mage is our best bet against combo in general. Arcane Lab and Meddling Mage tend to shut down just about every combo deck I can think of.

I agree that Arcane Lab can hold off burn. This card didn't even come to mind when i was drumming up that SB list. However, one thing to think of is it makes countering that aether vial so much more important, because if they resolve a vial under an arcane lab, that can mean GG to you. I liked chill mainly because it essentially buys you a turn if you play it turn 2 on the play. Also, it doesn't hurt you at all if gobs does get that vial out on you. Lastly, I kinda like chill because you can dig for it with cantrips and drawing multiples of them are nice whereas multiple labs does nothing.

Also, I don't feel comfortable with arcane lab costing 3. When CounterSliver is on the draw, solidarity or iggy pop can go off before we cast lab on turn 3. Not to mention that getting 3 mana on turn 3 is not consistant enough for my liking with our cantrip count. Unless you're Mav, of course, who happens to draw lands until turn 7 most games.

Just a few things to think about before completely removing chill from the board.

As for dealing with thresh, maybe we should consider the whole Jotun Grunt in the board thing. I've never actually tested with this card at all, but I hear some people saying it's good against thresh. It's worth play testing anyways.

Against combo, I think we should consider some tech from Time Spiral. I think Trickbind can do the trick. The commonly run combo decks are pretty much iggy pop and solidarity right? So, Trickbinding the storm should shut them down. Also it can stop salvager game from comboing off for a turn as well. You'd have to stop iggy pop's defense grids from hitting the table, though.

Meddling Mage and Pithing Needle are pretty much givens in our board.

So with all this in mind, I've tried a new SB list:
3 Meddling Mage
3 Pithing Needle
3 Chill
3 Trickbind
2 Jotun Grunt
1 Worship

An SB list like this should be able to handle Combo and have some stuff against other decks as well. I realize worship is only a 1-of in board, but I wanted to test out 1 worship in the main deck as well. I'd go down to 2 EE and run 1 worship in the main. I dunno, just things to think about i guess.

[Durahan]

If we have Mana Maze, we can't counter them, but with Lab we can just make sure we have a counter lined up for their one spell per turn.

Actually, who cares if iggy pop plays one spell per turn. They win with tendrils. However, you will want to stop them playing that echoing truth on you.

[xsockmonkeyx]

EDIT: I was more thinking along the lines of Chain of Vapor from Solidarity, and Echoing Truth from Iggy Pop. Solidarity can wish for CoV on their turn, and play it during yours to bounce it and then continue comboing off like nothing happened. All of Iggy's Tutors aren't blue, so it can fetch and play Echoing Truth in the same turn. If we have Mana Maze, we can't counter them, but with Lab we can just make sure we have a counter lined up for their one spell per turn.

If they have to bounce it to go off then at 2cc isnt Maze like Meddling Mage #5-7? I understand that Arcane Lab is a the more solid solution, but Mana Maze comes down a turn quicker and only requires only 2 lands to play, which may be gamebreaking. Im not advocating it yet because I havent tested it but I thought Id bring it up nonetheless.

[Maverick676]

Meddling mage + Arcane Lab is superior to mage + mana maze. Mana Maze is utter trash, I've seen people side these in and get absolutely wrecked by their own card. Arcane lab on the other hand, allows us to hold onto counters and only have to worry about bounce targeting the lab, or if mage came down one turn before naming echoeing truth, or against solidarity cunning wish then most combo players will scoop.

We can't use stifle as a way to beat Iggy-pop. They will just mull for the leyline and rape our hand before they play the tendrils. I don't know why people keep thinking stifle is in the deck for anti-combo tech. It is anti-goblin and fetchland/mass removal tech (deed, explosives, wasteland ect.).

[Durahan]

Ah yes. I forgot iggy pop kinda owns hands. Temporary lapse in thought there. Perhaps lab is the way to go. Maybe something like:

3 Meddling Mage
3 Chill
3 Arcane Lab
3 Pithing Needle
2 Jotun Grunt
1 Worship

with a worship in the main over one of the EEs. I basically just took out trickbind for the labs seeing as that's an anti-combo slot. I think a list like this would work out. Hell, we can even consider dropping to 2 stifles and 2 EEs to bring in 2 worship into main and run 3 Grunts in board. I think this should also be tested this week. Just an idea to throw out there. I guess it depends on how worship maindeck works and how many grunts you need to be effective vs thresh.

[Laurent Fleury]

{I'd like to mention at first that, yes, I read the whole thread. Thank you}

When I saw the new Slivers from Time Spiral, I was amazed to see how strong was Telekinetic Sliver. I browsed the forum to see if the Legacy Sliver deck had already incorporated it and I'm surprised to see it has been dismissed "because it looks sexy on paper but the casting cost is too restrictive"... We're talking about a deck that played Worship ? Telekinetic Sliver only costs 4, it's blue (pitchable to FoW etc.) and the two blue are almost never a problem as it's the deck's main color.

Now, the second sliver I fell in love for can answer the problem as well : Gemhide Sliver.

Again, I'm surprised not to see it anywhere...

Before even looking at this thread, I was talking to a friend on MSN that loves Slivers but didn't know much about Time Spiral. I tried to build a deck for him and I ended up playing

4 Gemhide Sliver
4 Aether Vial
4 Eladamri's Call
3 Telekinetic Sliver

And other irrelevant cards as your decks are obviously better than mine : it's been thought by like 20 people over a year while mine was made by only me in the course of a day.

But still, while I'm not saying my build is optimal or the kind, I'd just like to hear your opinions on it ?

Gemhide Sliver + Eladamri's Call + Aether Vial has the very strong potential on reducing "Sliver Bullet" (less Crystaline etc.) but is mostly strong at splashing Sliver and/or paying for usualy "too expensive" Sliver.

With a first turn Aether Vial, second turn Gemhide Sliver, it's really easy to play any Sliver in the world before the end of the game. Of course the deck I ended up with isn't a crappy load of multicolored one-ofs, it was Wug only with one Heart Sliver (as a red splash ?) because of it's sinergy with Telekinetic Sliver. (but with cards like 1 Pulmonic Sliver)

Of course the deck suffers a little bit in the spell part because it has to play at least 20~22+ Slivers to be efficient and 4 of each Aether Vial and Eladamri's Call (maybe that's not the good number, I don't know.)

Anyway, don't get me wrong, I do think _you_ are right, but I just wanted to hear why _I_ was wrong ? :) thank you.

[Volt]

{I'd like to mention at first that, yes, I read the whole thread. Thank you}

When I saw the new Slivers from Time Spiral, I was amazed to see how strong was Telekinetic Sliver. I browsed the forum to see if the Legacy Sliver deck had already incorporated it and I'm surprised to see it has been dismissed "because it looks sexy on paper but the casting cost is too restrictive"... We're talking about a deck that played Worship ? Telekinetic Sliver only costs 4, it's blue (pitchable to FoW etc.) and the two blue are almost never a problem as it's the deck's main color.

Now, the second sliver I fell in love for can answer the problem as well : Gemhide Sliver.

Again, I'm surprised not to see it anywhere...

Before even looking at this thread, I was talking to a friend on MSN that loves Slivers but didn't know much about Time Spiral. I tried to build a deck for him and I ended up playing

4 Gemhide Sliver
4 Aether Vial
4 Eladamri's Call
3 Telekinetic Sliver

And other irrelevant cards as your decks are obviously better than mine : it's been thought by like 20 people over a year while mine was made by only me in the course of a day.

But still, while I'm not saying my build is optimal or the kind, I'd just like to hear your opinions on it ?

Gemhide Sliver + Eladamri's Call + Aether Vial has the very strong potential on reducing "Sliver Bullet" (less Crystaline etc.) but is mostly strong at splashing Sliver and/or paying for usualy "too expensive" Sliver.

With a first turn Aether Vial, second turn Gemhide Sliver, it's really easy to play any Sliver in the world before the end of the game. Of course the deck I ended up with isn't a crappy load of multicolored one-ofs, it was Wug only with one Heart Sliver (as a red splash ?) because of it's sinergy with Telekinetic Sliver. (but with cards like 1 Pulmonic Sliver)

Of course the deck suffers a little bit in the spell part because it has to play at least 20~22+ Slivers to be efficient and 4 of each Aether Vial and Eladamri's Call (maybe that's not the good number, I don't know.)

Anyway, don't get me wrong, I do think _you_ are right, but I just wanted to hear why _I_ was wrong ? :) thank you.

Hard to say without a deck list. Like you said, you don't have much room left ofter over for spells after 20+ slivers, 4 Aether Vial, 4 EC, and however many lands. I have a feeling your deck overpowers certain decks, but probably rolls over and dies to other things, like combo maybe.

For the deck being discussed in this thread, Telekinetic Sliver is a "win more" card. Basically, it requires that you have several other slivers out in order for you to really start dominating the board with it. The thing is, if we have several slivers out, it means our deck is working exactly as intended, and we are probably winning anyway. Including Telekinetic Sliver in this deck would only dilute our strategy.

Let's logically examine how helpful Telekinetic Sliver would be against various Tier 1 matchups:

Goblins: Aether Vial combined with the fact that they typically play more permanents than we do makes Telekinetic Sliver silly. You generally want to use your slivers as blockers in this matchup, not as icy manipulators.

Solidarity: In response to your Telekinetic Sliver, I combo you out. gg.

Iggy Pop: Oh, you were going to cast Telekinetic Sliver next turn? How cute. Too bad I killed you on turn 3. What are you going to board in for that card which is completely useless against me?

Gro: Telekinetic Sliver could be pretty good in this matchup, if you can get it into play.

So that's 1 of 4 of the Tier 1 matchups where Telekinetic Sliver might be useful. It just isn't worth it.

[Tosh]

Um....you realize that we have 3 EE in the main, right? You can't really run another 4 in the board, as much as we'd like to.

I was basing my SB off of the list in the first post (I thought it was the updated list...) Pinder, please update the first post so that people can know where the most recent decklist is: in post #1.

Another thing we should be doing while we discuss the SB and 2 open slots in MD is that we should start making a primer so we can get this into the open forum and quite possibly the LMF. With college starting and stuff we won't have much time to collaberate but maybe at FNM we can use Mav's laptop and figure something out (3 heads are better than 1! And it's too bad you live more than a short drive away, Volt). Then we can send it to those who want it for their input (most certainly you Volt) and some revision.

[Maverick676]

As Volt said telekinetic sliver is just a win more card. Once It comes online we should have more than enough slivers to win the game anyway. Also worship is included despite its 4cc because it wins the game when it is played. Telekinetic sliver will never make an opponent scoop, worship will.

[Pinder]

Let me be the first to say, 'Irasshaimase, Fleury-san!' I noticed you were from Japan. I took Japanese in high school. w00t!

But I digress. Telekenetic Siver is strong, but it doesn't fit in this deck. It would fit very well in a deck geared more toward control, though, that can afford to play a ton of Sllivers and keep your opponent tapped out. As is, it's just to slow for what this deck is trying to do. It would be great in a deck that was built for it, though.

And I'll update the list with the last list Durahan posted, because I think that's the closest to what we all want.

And Klaan, Volt already sent me the beginnings of a very nice primer a while back. I'll see if I can find it and forward it to you (it's in my inbox somewhere).

[Volt]

If you need me to send that primer again, let me know.

Btw, I like the new list very much. One tiny tweak that I would suggest: +1 Stifle, -1 Engineered Explosives. As for the sideboard, here is what I would recommend:

4 Meddling Mage
3 Pithing Needle
2 Arcane Laboratory
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Ray of Revelation
2 Worship

It would be nice to get in some more play-testing with the new list, so we can post more definitive matchup percentages in the primer.

[Maverick676]

In regards to the new list I have a few complaints (your shocked I know).
First off, I don't like stifle as a two of. Most games I play this card perfor very well and I think it deserves to be a 3 of at least. Second I don't agree with counterspell in the main, as I have said before I find it to be clunky and unnecessary. Furthermore I don't Like this 4/3/2 buisiness, In my opinion daze is good enough to justify 4 maindeck slots. Lastly I still think that plated sliver might be better as more card draw, but I haven't tested this yet but I expect to post my testing results after tommorow.

Heres the current list I am testing:

4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
3 Windswept Heath
3 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

//Creatures (13)
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
3 Talon Sliver
2 Winged Sliver

//Draw (11)
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
3 Impulse

//Countermagic (12)
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle

//Removal (7)
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives

[Volt]

In regards to the new list I have a few complaints (your shocked I know).
First off, I don't like stifle as a two of. Most games I play this card perfor very well and I think it deserves to be a 3 of at least. Second I don't agree with counterspell in the main, as I have said before I find it to be clunky and unnecessary. Furthermore I don't Like this 4/3/2 buisiness, In my opinion daze is good enough to justify 4 maindeck slots. Lastly I still think that plated sliver might be better as more card draw, but I haven't tested this yet but I expect to post my testing results after tommorow.

Personally, I agree with everything you just said, except the part about taking out the Plated Slivers. We've been over this. I wish you would go ahead and playtest the "sans Plated Sliver" list, so you can come back to your senses and agree they have to stay in. I think you will find that our favorable Goblins matchup is now no better than 50/50, and that very few of our other matchups are improved.

I totally agree that Stifle should be 3-4 in the maindeck. We need to protect ourselves from enemy Wastelands and Engineered Explosives. Not to mention all the dirty tricks we can play with it. Sometimes stifling someone's fetchland will just flat out win you the game. It's happened to me more than once.

I also prefer 4 FoW + 4 Daze, instead of the 4/3/2 scheme. However, we may have to compromise on that one. I don't think we're all going to agree 100% on the same exact 60-card list. Whatever decklist we post in our primer doesn't necessarily have to be the same exact list that you would take to a tournament.

[Tosh]

I think the most viable spread of counters is 4 FoW/3 Daze/4 Stifle. Daze is powerful only in early game and is a neat way to dispose of early problems (t1 or t2), but the things that are needed to be delt with the most is in mid-early game (against fast decks). Stifle is a neat card that has proven itself to be very powerful against the right kind of decks (basically all the tier1-2 decks). those 2 extra MD slots can just be called "meta-game slots".

[Maverick676]

Personally, I agree with everything you just said, except the part about taking out the Plated Slivers. We've been over this. I wish you would go ahead and playtest the "sans Plated Sliver" list, so you can come back to your senses and agree they have to stay in. I think you will find that our favorable Goblins matchup is now no better than 50/50, and that very few of our other matchups are improved.

Like I said I haven't tested it yet, I will be testing tomorrow and if goblins becomes 50/50 you can bet that I will be throwing them right back in.


I also prefer 4 FoW + 4 Daze, instead of the 4/3/2 scheme. However, we may have to compromise on that one. I don't think we're all going to agree 100% on the same exact 60-card list. Whatever decklist we post in our primer doesn't necessarily have to be the same exact list that you would take to a tournament.

Wait? If you don't want to run counterspell and I don't want to run counterspell who exactly is the big proponent of this card? I thought pinder and I had the same opinion about it but I could be mistaken.

As for Daze as a 3 of, I know daze is close to dead late game, but having more than one early game is usually nothing short of stellar. So why run less than four of probably the second best counterspell in the game?

[Pinder]

Wait? If you don't want to run counterspell and I don't want to run counterspell who exactly is the big proponent of this card? I thought pinder and I had the same opinion about it but I could be mistaken.


I'm the big proponent of this card. Well, not really big, but I figured it was worth a try. sockmonkey seems to be pretty fond of the 4/3/2 setup, and it certainly sounds appealing to me. I can't count the number of times late game against Thresh or something similar where they've been playing around Daze for a while and I was wishing that one of the Dazes in my hand was a hard counter. I always had UU open at those times, too. And worse comes to worse, we can always pitch it to force if we draw it early game. The main reason I like this is because with only two in the deck, you'll only see counterspell late game when it becomes more useful than Daze, and with Daze as a 3 of you'll still see it early game, but not necessarily late game where counterspells would be more useful. If that's not necessarily the case, we'll up it to 4 again. But it warrants some testing at least, right?

I agree that we should cut 1 EE for a Stifle, though.

[xsockmonkeyx]

I'm the big proponent of this card. Well, not really big, but I figured it was worth a try. sockmonkey seems to be pretty fond of the 4/3/2 setup, and it certainly sounds appealing to me.

Yes, yes I am.

EDIT: reasons for 2x counterspell maindeck: 1) Its another hard counter 2)It makes game 1 of the combo matchup better 3)Its easy to side out for more specific hate 4)Its never completely dead game 1 because its counterspell, a very powerful and versitile card 5)Its mostly functional at all points in the game b/c its a great late-mid game card that you can pitch in the early game.6) with 3x Daze 2x Counter your not going to get flooded with multiple copies in your hand, which can be bad with 4xDaze.

It is a bit clunky but its never short on power. I think its safe to take up 2 spots MD. The net change Between 4/3/2 vs 4 Force 4 Daze is only one card.

[TekTik]

GAAHHH i just typed this longass thing and it didnt post >< anyway... what i said was: you guys never said anything bad about disrupt, why not use it, ummm life doesnt win as much as I would like it to, and i could use the help in developing it. I think arcane lab costs too much and you could play better things with that mana... I like the idea of 2 counterspells, and i think taking out 1 EE for a stifle is stupid, because if you recall: last friday, Mav playing Woj if he had Meddling maged for worship he would have topdecked EE FTW. i think it helps more than another stifle would, although they are REALLY annoying.

[Pinder]

No, Disrupt is certainly not horrible. In fact, it's quite great against hand destruction that might otherwise rape us (I believe someone mentioned Hymn to Tourach as a specific example, 'Discard 2? Nah, I'll draw a card'). But there isn't that much hand destruction or instants/sorceries we need to watch out for in the Tier 1. Disrupt would be incredible against Deadguy in my opinion, as all of their hando and lando is instant or sorcery. However, Deadguy isn't really Tier 1. If you see Deadguy (or other discard or land destruction decks) in your meta a lot, then board it. But it doesn't do enough against the decks we see most often to warrant a SB slot, IMO.

And we really only need to play and use about 1 EE per game if we're doing it right. I was running 3 to increase the chance of drawing it (like you suggested), but honestly you use it to either horribly wreck your opponent and smash them before they recover, or to break through a standstill for the win. In either case we really only need them mid to late game. Stifle is generally more useful early game, and arguably only really useful in the early game, so 3 is a better number for those IMO because we need to see them more often, and earlier.

[Volt]

No, Disrupt is certainly not horrible. In fact, it's quite great against hand destruction that might otherwise rape us (I believe someone mentioned Hymn to Tourach as a specific example, 'Discard 2? Nah, I'll draw a card'). But there isn't that much hand destruction or instants/sorceries we need to watch out for in the Tier 1. Disrupt would be incredible against Deadguy in my opinion, as all of their hando and lando is instant or sorcery. However, Deadguy isn't really Tier 1. If you see Deadguy (or other discard or land destruction decks) in your meta a lot, then board it. But it doesn't do enough against the decks we see most often to warrant a SB slot, IMO.

And we really only need to play and use about 1 EE per game if we're doing it right. I was running 3 to increase the chance of drawing it (like you suggested), but honestly you use it to either horribly wreck your opponent and smash them before they recover, or to break through a standstill for the win. In either case we really only need them mid to late game. Stifle is generally more useful early game, and arguably only really useful in the early game, so 3 is a better number for those IMO because we need to see them more often, and earlier.


Spell Snare is even better than Disrupt against Deadguy, imo. It's also excellent against Pox, which I think is going to see a resurgence.

[Pinder]

Erm, Spell Snare doesn't counter Pox. It counters Smallpox, sure, but not Pox, which is probably what we're going to have to worry about in most Pox Decks. For now I don't think Spell Snare or Disrupt belongs in the SB, but that may change if the format sees a shift after Time Spiral.

EDIT: I will agree, though, that between Deadguy's Sinkholes, Hymns, and Shades, Spell Snare is probably way better against it than Disrupt.

[Volt]

Erm, Spell Snare doesn't counter Pox. It counters Smallpox, sure, but not Pox, which is probably what we're going to have to worry about in most Pox Decks. For now I don't think Spell Snare or Disrupt belongs in the SB, but that may change if the format sees a shift after Time Spiral.

EDIT: I will agree, though, that between Deadguy's Sinkholes, Hymns, and Shades, Spell Snare is probably way better against it than Disrupt.

...and Dark Confidant, and Gerard's Verdict.

Seems like it would be pretty good in the sliver mirror match, too.

Just saying.

[Maverick676]

I have to disagree with you guys on this one. From my experience with Deadguy Ale, Pox, and other black disruption decks I have found that the deck likes to tap out ALOT in the first 4 or 5 turns of the game. So either disrupt or spellsnare would almost always counter their more destructive spells (Hymn, Confidant, Sinkhole). So since disrupt draws a card it is a much better choice as it will net us CA. Same goes for the mirror, Daze tends to be a deciding factor in those games sometimes, and also disrupt can target any spell so it is effective in a counterwar (usually spell snare is too, but it can't counter force).

[TekTik]

ok, so I guess disrupt isn't needed because noone plays monoblack pox decks, maybe some U/B jenk *cough* Akki :wink: and I think your updated decklist should do good tomorrow!

[Durahan]

I noticed you put the updated list on the first page. For the sideboard I would suggest just putting it up as:

4 Meddling Mage
3 Pithing Needle
3 Arcane Laboratory
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Worship

That setup seems to shore up the combo matchup using mages and needles. It stops burn, gobs, and decks in general that win through damage with worship. It hits thresh with Grunts and mages. Pithing Needle will be there to hose stuff like salvagers, cursed scroll, lavamancer, cycling, wasteland, and whatever.

[Volt]

I noticed you put the updated list on the first page. For the sideboard I would suggest just putting it up as:

4 Meddling Mage
3 Pithing Needle
3 Arcane Laboratory
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Worship

That setup seems to shore up the combo matchup using mages and needles. It stops burn, gobs, and decks in general that win through damage with worship. It hits thresh with Grunts and mages. Pithing Needle will be there to hose stuff like salvagers, cursed scroll, lavamancer, cycling, wasteland, and whatever.

How do we handle problematic enchantments like Humility, Worship, etc? Besides counter-magic, that is.

[Durahan]

To stop things like Humility or Worship, either use countermagic or name it with Meddling Mage. I don't think there's a commonly played deck out there that plays more than one or two problem enchantments for this deck. If there is, then I'm an idiot. But to the best of my knowledge, these things should be able to be named with Mage or if they play it before you can get mage out somehow, use daze or force.

I realize that thresh uses worship much like our deck does. However, that's why i think Jotun Grunt and mage is in the board. You slow them down with mages/counters and beat face with grunt/slivers.

Basically, to answer your question, name Humility against rifter and name Worship against thresh. Your counterspells should be enough for decks that run humility. Thresh, again, is a bit more problematic, but I think we can handle it. At least it's not as horrible a matchup as it used to be if we're worried about worship more than the other stuff.

[Pinder]

maybe some U/B jenk *cough* Akki :wink:

Well, Aki wins against us more because he has the uncanny ability to make us draw lands until turn 10 or 11, even in spite of 3-5 fetches. The matchup is cursed, I tells ya.

And for the love of God, it's spelled 'jank'. I don't care if Klaan told you it was the other way.

As for enchantment destruction, I think that countermagic and mages should be enough, but if this proves untrue we could always fit in disenchant or naturalize, as both are in our colors. We might also consider Krosan Grip. It costs 1 more, which might be a problem, but the whole 'Hey, Thresh, counter this!' feeling from split second might warrant it some definite consideration.

[Durahan]

As for enchantment destruction, I think that countermagic and mages should be enough, but if this proves untrue we could always fit in disenchant or naturalize, as both are in our colors. We might also consider Krosan Grip. It costs 1 more, which might be a problem, but the whole 'Hey, Thresh, counter this!' feeling from split second might warrant it some definite consideration.

I agree. It'll require some testing, but I want to try running my SB list for now and see how much we actually will suffer from random Humilities or Worships.

[Pinder]

4 Meddling Mage
3 Pithing Needle
3 Arcane Laboratory
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Worship


I honestly think that, as far as a sideboard, this is the best that we've come up with thus far. I really haven't done any testing with Jotun Grunt, so I can't say for sure, but from what I hear it's an absolute bomb against Thresh. Also, with the number of cantrips we run, we could probably fuel it ourselves for a few turns while we beat face, and wait till the upkeep gets big (around 6-10 cards) before we start eating their graveyard. And it trades with Werebear for the same mana cost. That's just sexy.

If for some reason the Grunts aren't orgasmically good, I could always see some artifact/enchantment destruction in those SB slots.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Grunt is awesome vs. thresh. Thats still going to be a tough matchup regardless of what you board in though.

I think there should be some slots in the board devoted to fighting reanimator. It has seen some resurgence lately and I would hate to be caught unprepared. I recommend 3 CoV because it rules reanimator and can be used against worship, meddling mage leyline and a lot of other permanents that ruin your day.

[Pinder]

I had almost forgotten about CoV. Hell, it was in the maindeck before for a reason. We eventually ruled it out, but it should definitely find a home in the board. It's pretty amazing against Reanimator, yes, but honestly I think its most important application will be against Iggy Pop, which I can see making its way into the Tier 1, or at least showing up everywhere for a while. I can speak from personal experience when I say that Chaining a turn 0 Leyline is one of this deck's best plays against Iggy Pop. If, every time they play IGG, instead of raping your hand they give you a Force, a Stifle, and a Daze/Counterspell, it makes it very hard for them to go off. And once you bounce it, they'll never really have the mana to play it again. It's the same concept as bouncing things against Reanimator. Plus, Chain of Vapor is never really uselesss, as it still has applications against Goblins (Aether Vial, Warchief before they swing, etc) and Thresh (bounce Worship in response to lethal damage). The only thing I can see it being really dead against is Solidarity.

[Volt]

And let's not forget about good old Tormod's Crypt. It's good against Thresh, Iggy Pop, Reanimator, Survival, and other random decks that like to recur stuff from the graveyard. Jotun Grunt seems to be the flavor of the month, but I still think Crypt has better overall utility.

[Pinder]

Tormod's Crypt is probably more useful as graveyard removal in the non-Thresh matchups (Iggy Pop, etc.), but I still think Jotun Grunt is a star in those as well. Specifically against Iggy Pop. It's slower, and not as gamebreaking as Crypt against Iggy Pop, but you have to factor in the fact that it's a 4/4 for 2. That's a 5 turn clock, without any other creatures. The grunts speed up your clock against Iggy Pop so much it's ridiculous.

[Benie Bederios]

Tormod's Crypt is probably more useful as graveyard removal in the non-Thresh matchups (Iggy Pop, etc.), but I still think Jotun Grunt is a star in those as well. Specifically against Iggy Pop. It's slower, and not as gamebreaking as Crypt against Iggy Pop, but you have to factor in the fact that it's a 4/4 for 2. That's a 5 turn clock, without any other creatures. The grunts speed up your clock against Iggy Pop so much it's ridiculous.

Grunt is rather weak against IGGy-Pop, It only has to utilize the Graveyard only 1 turn. EOT Intuition and they win without Grunt being able to do something intresting. On top of that runs IGGy-pop Leylin of the Void, wich will make it hard to keep Grunt online. A first turn Crypt with this deck, means GG for IGGy-pop, but a a second turn Grunt, isn't something I'm afraid of, as IGGy-pop player. Also Grunt is rather weak against Reanimator. The only matchups where he is better against Solidarity and Thresh.

[Pinder]

My point there was that the Grunt is a 4/4 for 2 mana. I don't really care what I remove from Iggy Pop's graveyard, that's not the point of Grunt here. The point here is to utterly beat face, not to remove key spells. The graveyard removal doesn't do anything against Iggy Pop, as you said. It's mostly the 4 damage every turn that helps here.

[Volt]

My point there was that the Grunt is a 4/4 for 2 mana. I don't really care what I remove from Iggy Pop's graveyard, that's not the point of Grunt here. The point here is to utterly beat face, not to remove key spells. The graveyard removal doesn't do anything against Iggy Pop, as you said. It's mostly the 4 damage every turn that helps here.

I'm with Benie on this one. I don't think Jotun Grunt is going to be much use against Iggy Pop.

[Pinder]

I'm with Benie on this one. I don't think Jotun Grunt is going to be much use against Iggy Pop.

You're probably right about that. The best thing we have against Iggy Pop in my opinion is Chain of Vapor, though. Chaining a Leyline pretty much makes it so they can't win, because you keep getting your Forces, Stifles, Dazes, and Counterspells (if you run them) back every time they play Ill-Gotten Gains. The only thing we really have to worry about then is Defense Grid.

[Volt]

You can't go too far wrong with either Jotun Grunt or Tormod's Crypt. I prefer the latter because it has a broader application. However, in the matches where Jotun Grunt is good, it tends to be really good.


Btw, I had the opportunity to get in a pretty good amount of play-testing against Solidarity today. I piloted Slivers, while DeathwingZero (Ryan) piloted Solidarity. We had time to play 10 games pre-board and 7 games post-board. I went 6-4 in the pre-board games, and 7-0 (!) in the post-board games. Afterwards, we talked about it, and we agreed it's close to a 50/50 matchup pre-board, but probably slightly in favor of Slivers. After sideboarding, it gets ridiculous. Any game Solidarity wins post-board is basically a fluke. Overall, I would say this matchup is about 65/35 in our favor, maybe even 70/30. Here are a few play tips for the Solidarity matchup:

1) Stifle is terrific in this matchup, and not necessarily for the reason you think. Once they get their draw engine going, a single Stifle probably won't save you (two might, though). Where Stifle really shines is in the first few turns, if you can stifle one of their fetch lands. That is an AMAZING play against Solidarity, as they play so few lands and often can't recover.

2) Don't be shy about casting that Daze when they're trying to go off, even if they can pay the 1. Sometimes, forcing them to pay that extra 1 is enough to trip them up and make them fizzle.

3) Generally, you want to counter High Tide, but not always. If you have a couple of hard counters in your hand, it might be better to let the High Tide resolve so you can reap the benefits of tapping your own islands for extra mana, and then counter the followup Meditate or Reset.

It's hard to quantify exactly what to counter and when in this matchup, but with some practice, you can get a pretty good feel for it. Sometimes, you just have to take a chance, though.


EDIT: Here is the exact deck list and sideboarding strategy that I was using:

4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
3 Talon Sliver
2 Winged Sliver

4 FoW
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Stifle
3 Daze
2 Counterspell
1 Eladamri's Call

Sideboarding strategy: -4 StP, -2 Talon Sliver, -1 Winged Sliver, +4 Meddling Mage, +3 Tormod's Crypt

[Pinder]

I noticed a distinct lack of Engineered Explosives from that list. Was this on purpose? I admit EE is dead against Solidarity, but it's pretty stellar against everything else. I would run at least 2 in the MD, don't you think? And on that same note, how is 17 dudes working for you? I noted you pushed the Plated Sliver count up to four. I'm not so sure about that. In the list above I would cut a Plated and Call (it's good, but I'd rather have EE if it comes to it) for 2 MD EE.

Also, I played CounterSliver on Friday in my local tourney. I don't really have time to post a full report, but I can tell you that I went 2-2, losing to Burn and Enchantress. Now, this may seem bad, but you have to understand that the burn playerr was running MD Pyrostatic Pillar (!), and that we haven't tested Enchantress at all. Oh, and the fact that I'm just dumb sometimes. Side in Needle against Words of War? Nah :laugh:. I beat a Transreliquat/Vault combo deck, though. I think we can safely say that it's a pretty solid matchup for us.

I ran counterspell as a 3 of in the main, and I can say that that's too many. Too often I saw them early game and wished they were Daze. 4/3/2 is definitely the best split if you run counterspell main. And Stifle can probably safely go back to a 4-of. It's just so good.

[Togit460]

As interesting as the results about enchantress and burn is, I'd prefer that unless you've got a table of data against them such as 10 games both pre/post board that you try to avoid commenting on them. Neither of those decks is currently tier 1 which is what i'm concerned with. On the other hand though, what you did post was well though out and surprisingly true. Do some more playtesting against them and come up with different strategies to go off of for sideboarding cards. That is all.

[Pinder]

So, back to sideboards, how about this:

3 Pithing Needle
4 Meddling Mage
2 Worship
3 Arcane Lab
3 Tormod's Crypt

Basically the same thing Durahan posted, but with Tormod's Crypt instead of Grunt, because as you said, it has a broader range of applications.

[Volt]

So, back to sideboards, how about this:

3 Pithing Needle
4 Meddling Mage
2 Worship
3 Arcane Lab
3 Tormod's Crypt

Basically the same thing Durahan posted, but with Tormod's Crypt instead of Grunt, because as you said, it has a broader range of applications.

Actually, I've come to think the Arcane Labs might be a bit of overkill. Meddling Mage + Tormod's Crypt should be more than enough against both Solidarity & Iggy Pop. That should free up some room for enchantment hate, Chain of Vapors (which are kind of sexy as a sideboard card), Armageddons, or whatever. EDIT: or perhaps Winter Orb instead of Armageddon.

Also, I don't really think it's necessary to nail down a precise 15-card sideboard in order to finish the primer. Let's just concentrate on finishing up the matchup analyses. We already have pretty good data for Solidarity, Goblins, and Threshold at this point. Iggy Pop results shouldn't be terribly different from Solidarity, but it would be nice to have some more play-testing data to be sure. I may have a chance to play-test that matchup extensively this coming weekend, if you and Mav don't get to it first.

[Pinder]

I could probably shed some light on the Iggy Pop matchup, because Mav has Iggy Pop built. We haven't actually sat down and done an exhaustive matchup analysis, but we've played enough casual matches (and 1 tournament match) to get a feel for it. Our overall strategy against Iggy Pop preboard is to counter all of their key spells. If they have Leyline, IGG becomes the number one priority to counter, because if they resolve it there's not much else we can do with no hand to keep them from going off preboard. Stifle on Tendrils is always helpful, but that's a given here. Another nice thing to remember is that they can't Misdirection a Stifle because there's no other ability to point it at. Also, countering an Infernal Tutor really ruins their day (and their combo). Daze is a star here, as they generally have just enough mana to keep things going, and they don't have a ton extra to spend on Daze, so it frequently is another free hard counter. Preboard, our main worries are Leyline and Defense Grid.

Postboard, things get a lot better for us bringing in Meddling Mage, Tormod's Crypt and (if we have it) Chain of Vapor. Mages naming IGG primarily and Echoing Truth Secondarily will pretty much seal it. Also, popping Tormod's Crypt in response to an IGG lets them know what it feels like to have nothing to return. Stifle is also super great, as it always is. And I can't begin to tell you how useful Chain of Vapor is here. It gets rid of Defense Grid on your turn, but it's most useful application is against those uncounterable Leylines. Bouncing a Leyline back to their hand is essentially like destroying it, as they usually don't have the mana to spend playing it again. And even if they do, you can actually counter it this time. If there's not a Leyline in play, go ahead and let IGG resolve. It helps you just as much as it helps them when you can get back a Force, a Stifle, and a Daze every time they cast it. When you keep getting counterspells back as they're comboing off, it really rains on their parade.

Overall I'd say we're about 55/45 preboard, and damn near 75/25 postboard (if we have Chain of Vapor, or possibly any enchantment destruction for those Leylines).

[Volt]

That's pretty good, and it falls in line with what I've experienced playing against Iggy Pop, as well.

We basically have our primer done. We just need to put the pieces together. Don't be shy about making changes to the draft that I sent you. I'll be happy to proof, but all final editorial decisions are yours. Let's get 'er done, and get this thing into the Open! :cool:

[Pinder]

I concur. I'll see if I can't get off my lazy ass and finally work out another draft to send you :wink:.

[xsockmonkeyx]

@IGG and Solidarity testing. After reading about your results is it safe to say that Arcane Laboratory may be unnecessary in the sideboard? If so I feel that the SB should pack more thresh hate as that seems to be the toughest tier 1 matchup for slivers.

[Pinder]

@IGG and Solidarity testing. After reading about your results is it safe to say that Arcane Laboratory may be unnecessary in the sideboard? If so I feel that the SB should pack more thresh hate as that seems to be the toughest tier 1 matchup for slivers.

I agree. Solidarity and Iggy Pop are both decent enough preboard and solid enough postboard to warrant taking AL out of the board (especially if we're running Crypt over Grunt in the board).

As for what should go in, here are my votes:

Chain of Vapor: It was crazy in the maindeck, but it generated too much card disadvantage. However, where it's good against something, it's really good against something. Great against Vials and turn 0 Leylines, also Humility. Unfortunately it's sort of dead against Solidarity, and really only has uses against Thresh in bouncing Worship in response to lethal damage. You could bounce Wearbear, but please. The fact that it's only great against the matchups we already have shored up might make it a less than stellar choice, but the fact that it only costs 1 mana makes it great as well.

Krosan Grip: Uncounterable Naturalize that can kill a Vial (or Top, etc.) without the opponent being able to respond? Sweet. Also great in most of the areas that Chain of Vapor shored up, namely problem enchantments. The only thing I can really see against this is that it costs 3. It's uncounterable, so tapping out for it doesn't really matter, but I like to be playing Slivers on turn 3.

Jotun Grunt: Sure we already have Crypt because it's good against more things, but it could never hurt to have Crypts and Grunts in the board against Thresh. It could really push games 2 and 3 against Thresh in our favor.

There are probably more candidates, but those are the first that came to mind.

[Volt]

@IGG and Solidarity testing. After reading about your results is it safe to say that Arcane Laboratory may be unnecessary in the sideboard? If so I feel that the SB should pack more thresh hate as that seems to be the toughest tier 1 matchup for slivers.


Yes, Meddling Mage + Tormod's Crypt are plenty to handle the storm combo matchups. For the Thresh matchup, Meddling Mage, Engineered Explosives, and Tormod's Crypt are solid options out of the sideboard. We are definitely favored after sideboarding. The only problem with the Thresh matchup is that we are slightly unfavored in the first game (like 45-55, maybe), and the games tend to last so long that the match is liable to end up 1-1, time.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Ok, this is my current board sans AL and focused on more anti-thresh:

2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Jötun Grunt
1 Engineered Explosives(2 main)
3 Chain of Vapor
4 Meddling Mage
3 Pithing Needle

I'd like to add some anti enchantment/artifact (K. Grip, Ray of Revelation, Disenchant, etc.)but I'm pressed for room.

[Pinder]

Ok, this is my current board sans AL and focused on more anti-thresh:

2 Tormod's Crypt
2 J&#246;tun Grunt
1 Engineered Explosives(2 main)
3 Chain of Vapor
4 Meddling Mage
3 Pithing Needle

I'd like to add some anti enchantment/artifact (K. Grip, Ray of Revelation, Disenchant, etc.)but I'm pressed for room.

I think that, whatever we decide, we'll either have room for enchantment/artifact destruction, or Chain of Vapor, as they both serve mainly the same purpose. My first thought is to lean towards the destruction just because it's a more permanent answer to most problem enchantments/artifacts. But Chain of Vapor is only 1 mana and fits squarely into our main color, so the main question we have is how soon we need to answer artifacts and enchantments. Another consideration is that Chain of Vapor hits creatures as well. But we have Swords for that, I suppose.

EDIT: Oh, and if we're running counterspell, we might want to look into running 2 MD Island so we have an unwastelandable source of UU. I would suggest cutting a Tropical for it.

[xsockmonkeyx]

EDIT: Oh, and if we're running counterspell, we might want to look into running 2 MD Island so we have an unwastelandable source of UU. I would suggest cutting a Tropical for it.

If your going to cut anything for island then cut the basic forest, that is if you already havent. I cut it a while ago for 1x Savannah and I havent ever regretted it.

These are my 17 lands and they seem to get the job done right:

4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
1 Savannah
3 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
2 Islands
1 Plains

[Volt]

4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
1 Savannah
3 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
2 Islands
1 Plains

I think that's about perfect, sockmonkey. I agree a basic forest isn't necessary, given that we only have 4 green spells in the deck. And I've been saying forever that we should have a Savannah in there. Also, I see you're running the same split of fetchlands that I am. That reminds me...

Pinder: why does the standard list still show 3x Flooded Strand + 3x Windswept Heath? Didn't we agree a while back that it was important to have more fetch lands that can fetch basic islands?

[Maverick676]

I really don't think a savannah is necessary or even wanted in this deck. Early on you want to be cantriping as much as possible, which means you need multiple sources of blue. Running a basic plains and a forest are a necessary evil due to wasteland, bloodmoon ect. If I could I wouldn't run any lands that don't produce blue. As for having 2 basic Islands, I don't think this is necessary. Agains't most decks that run that much nonbasic hate i.e. goblins, deadguy ect. Why would you worry about having UU? counterspell is sub-par against those decks. If your running counterspell in the main you would be siding it out for pithing needle, so having UU would not be critical. Also I think it is very important to have a basic forest, it's true that we only have 4 green spells but those are muscle slivers which are crucial in alot of matchups.

EDIT: Also I think that 3 strand and 3 heath are the way to go since either can fetch U in a pinch. Running the third heath ensures that you will always be able to get to that basic forest.

[Volt]

I really don't think a savannah is necessary or even wanted in this deck. Early on you want to be cantriping as much as possible, which means you need multiple sources of blue. Running a basic plains and a forest are a necessary evil due to wasteland, bloodmoon ect. If I could I wouldn't run any lands that don't produce blue. As for having 2 basic Islands, I don't think this is necessary. Agains't most decks that run that much nonbasic hate i.e. goblins, deadguy ect. Why would you worry about having UU? counterspell is sub-par against those decks. If your running counterspell in the main you would be siding it out for pithing needle, so having UU would not be critical. Also I think it is very important to have a basic forest, it's true that we only have 4 green spells but those are muscle slivers which are crucial in alot of matchups.

EDIT: Also I think that 3 strand and 3 heath are the way to go since either can fetch U in a pinch. Running the third heath ensures that you will always be able to get to that basic forest.

Good counter-points. Fine, let's leave the mana-base as is. We're quibbling over minutia, anyway.

[Pinder]

Pinder: why does the standard list still show 3x Flooded Strand + 3x Windswept Heath? Didn't we agree a while back that it was important to have more fetch lands that can fetch basic islands?

Um...yeah. I'm not sure why it isn't the 4/2 split, honestly. I mean, 3/3 is less vulnerable to Needle, I suppose, but whatever. I still don't think we need the Savannah, though. If you insist on putting it in, though, the basic Forest slot is definitely the slot to put it in.

[Maverick676]

As far as whether to do a 4/2 or a 3/3 split I don't think it matters all that much. In 99% of the games you'll play It won't matter which fetchlands you get since they can all get both tropical and tundra. At any rate it is pointless to discuss since as volt said it is just a trivial detail.

[Pinder]

But in those other 1% of games it's statistically better, because while they both fetch both dual lands, Flooded Strand fetches more relevant basics, made especially moreso by the fact that we just cut a Forest. Flooded Strand fetches both basic Islands and basic Plains, but Windswept Heath can only fetch basic Plains (the fact that it can also fetch basic Forests is made irelevant by the fact that those are no longer in the list). So having more Flooded Strands is better, but not enough for it to make any nontrivial difference. On the other side of the fence, the 3/3 split makes you less vulnerable to Needle, but also just as negligibly so.

So in summation, yeah, it doesn't really matter at all.

EDIT: And Volt, nice use of the word 'minutia' :wink:.

[xsockmonkeyx]

I hope this will be recieved properly because I've thought about this alot and it took a long time to reason this out and type this up. Furthermore I had to type this twice because Vbb sux serious ass.

1) Forest is not necessary

Obviously, the basic lands are there to fight nonbasic land hate. Anticipating a Wasteland flood, Waste-lock, Back to Basics with no counter or removal your course of action would to be play basic island, basic plains, then another basic island(hence i run 2 island 1 plains). If you need any futher mana to double cantrip, play a muscle sliver, counterspell, EE for 3, etc, you can just fetch it out or play it without regret because it is expendable. When you are in trouble you need blue and white for counter and removal, but not green because this deck doesnt run any green answers and green mana is expendable.

.:Blue>White>>>Green :: Island>Plains>>>Forest


2) Flooded Strand is your MVP

For all the reasons I just went over Flooded Strand is your MVP. It can fetch any dual (read any color), OR a basic Plains OR a basic Island :smile: Windswept Heath fetches any color but only plains. Polluted Delta gets any dual except Savannah and only basic island.

.: Flooded Strand>Windswept Heath>Polluted Delta*

*If I didnt run the Savannah then Polluted Delta>Windswept Heath because it has one more island than plains to target in the deck.


3) 1x Savannah is a powerful card.

There have been times (few albeit) when Ive wanted to fetch for a Savannah and if i dont have one in the deck then Im shit out of luck. The 1x is powerful because its only one card and playing that 1 in the deck is like playing 7 because Heaths and Strands both fetch it. Also, the Savannah is benign. Ive never drawn it wishing that it was a Trop.

Finally, if it makes a 1% difference then its worth it. If it helps you win one game, one turn, one situation then its worth it. Think about it this way. The defective part on the recent space shuttle disaster was much less than 1% of the shuttle yet it made all the difference. It may not be an apt analogy but it is still something to consider.

BTW, im a mana fanatic. The landbase/mana base is by far the most important aspect of deck building and any improvement that can be made in that area is significant IMO.

Here are my lands again for reference:

4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
1 Savannah
3 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
2 Islands
1 Plains

[Pinder]

Well said. I still don't think Savannah is strictly necessary, and I'm certainly not going to go right out and buy one, but it is a solid include if one chooses to stick it in. The thing that I'm curious about is when having a Savannah is better than having either a Tundra or a Tropical Island. If you're fetching for a Savannah, you're fetching for either white, or green. In either case, you can still obtain that color by fetching white in the form of Tundra, or green in the form of Tropical Island. In both of those cases, you are also fetching blue, which is the deck's primary color. I fail to see how this is ever worse than having a Savannah.

On the note of Polluted Delta > Windswept Heath (if you're not running Savannah), I agree there. Since we no longer have any need to fetch a basic Forest, perhaps the split should go something like this: 4 Flooded Strand/1 Windswept Heath/1 Polluted Delta. That way, you have 6 fetches that can fetch any of your dual lands, and exactly 5 fetches apiece for either a basic Island or a basic Plains. Here's a more comprehensive comparison in terms of what each one can fetch in the deck:

Flooded Strand
Dual Lands: All
Basic Lands: All


Windswept Heath
Dual Lands: All
Basic Lands: Plains


Polluted Delta
Dual Lands: All
Basic Lands: Island


With two Windswept Heaths, we're lopsided towards white (in that they can fetch every Dual but only a basic Plains), which is strictly worse IMO than being lopsided towards blue (by running two Polluted Deltas), because blue is our primary color, and we want to see it early game more often. By running one of each, it provides a nice balance between the two, which evens out the mana base nicely.

Unless you're running a Savannah :wink:.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Well said. I still don't think Savannah is strictly necessary, and I'm certainly not going to go right out and buy one, but it is a solid include if one chooses to stick it in. The thing that I'm curious about is when having a Savannah is better than having either a Tundra or a Tropical Island. If you're fetching for a Savannah, you're fetching for either white, or green. In either case, you can still obtain that color by fetching white in the form of Tundra, or green in the form of Tropical Island. In both of those cases, you are also fetching blue, which is the deck's primary color. I fail to see how this is ever worse than having a Savannah.

Savannah comes into play when you make the move to the second island. There were times when i have two islands out in anticipation of hate and it never comes. Its around then that i wished i was searching for a savannah to eot plow and cast muscle sliver/ next turn. Its rare but its there. Also Savannah is nice with the sideboard as its another white source for your hate, which tends to be on the white/green side. Finally, both Heath and Strand fetch it so its always a live option.

EDIT: the Savannah may be debatable but 2 islands 1 plains and 0 forests is not IMO.

[Pinder]

eot plow and cast muscle sliver next turn.

Well why didn't you say so :wink:? I couldn't think of a good situation, but you have a point. Any time where you want to use white during one turn, then green during the next without another fetch, Savannah is a good choice. I admit that this particular application is extremely narrow and will only come up in a very, very small number of games, but in that case the argument then becomes, why not? As long as it doesn't rape-ify our mana base, what reason do we have not to stick it in (aside from the fact that it tears my nice little fetchland balance to pieces)?

Of course, if I'm fetching for basics, I'm usually go Island, Plains, then another Island. I usually only want UU in the late game, as I only need 1 Island to play Daze, and no Islands to play Force (or if I hardcast it, I still only need UU late game when I have 5 mana anyway). If I'm going to be doing something on second turn, I want it to be playing Crystalline Sliver, not holding UU for a counterspell.

EDIT: Another thought there is that it's usually best to leave your fetches on the table if you won't be using the land you nab with them right away. That way you can wait until you're absolutely certain which dual you want to go for.

EDIT BECAUSE OF SOCKMONKEY'S EDIT:


EDIT: the Savannah may be debatable but 2 islands 1 plains and 0 forests is not IMO.


I don't think anyone was disputing that 2 Island and 1 Plains > 1 Island, 1 Plains, and 1 Forest. I certainly wasn't. 2 Island and 1 Plains is a staple for this deck as far as I'm concerned.

[xsockmonkeyx]

I don't think anyone was disputing that 2 Island and 1 Plains > 1 Island, 1 Plains, and 1 Forest. I certainly wasn't. 2 Island and 1 Plains is a staple for this deck as far as I'm concerned.

@ Pinder: The first post says otherwise :wink:


Alrighty, since it was getting so confusing to keep the list updated with so much junk clogging the first post, I'm starting from scratch and just posting the most recent list here. If you don't understand the card choices already, odds are you don't know enough about the deck to start posting right away anyway. Give it a few test runs if you don't understand.

The List:
Last Updated: 10/5

//Land (17)
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
2 Windswept Heath
4Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

//Creatures (16)
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
3 Plated Sliver
3 Talon Sliver
2 Winged Sliver

//Draw (8)
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions

//Countermagic (12)
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Counterspell
3 Stifle

//Removal (6)
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Engineered Explosives

//Utility (1)
1 Eladamri's Call


Now we just need the sideboard.

Also: Post some sideboards in the main post plz:frown: , we have some good ones one this thread a couple pages back.

[Pinder]

As to that, that's just because I'm a lazy ass :tongue:. I'll update it with the most current list (and sideboard) as it appears in the primer myself, Volt, and (somewhat) Mav are working on.

[xsockmonkeyx]

As to that, that's just because I'm a lazy ass :tongue:. I'll update it with the most current list (and sideboard) as it appears in the primer myself, Volt, and (somewhat) Mav are working on.

Primer, eh? Here's my list for consideration. Ill omit card choices as they should be somewhat obvious and I too am lazy:tongue:

"Meat Hooks"
(CounterSliver)

Land
4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath

1 Savannah
3 Tropical Island
4 Tundra

2 Islands
1 Plains

Hooks
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
2 Winged Sliver
3 Talon Sliver
3 Plated Sliver

Quality
4 Serum Visions
4 Brainstorm
0-1 Eladamri's Call

Counter
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4-3 Stifle

Remove
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Engineered Explosives


Board
4 Meddling Mage
3 Pithing Needle
3 Chain of Vapor
1 Engineered Explosives
2 J&#246;tun Grunt
2 Tormod's Crypt

[Pinder]

Duly noted. We'll be sure to stick in a section about differing variations on the list that's currently in the first post. It'll be sure to spark some good discussion.

[xsockmonkeyx]

W00t, CounterSliver: 10,000 views in N&D.:cool:

[Maverick676]

The lists you guys are posting are looking alot like mine with a couple of exceptions: I still think that running a basic forest is important to the deck. Muscle sliver is one of the most important creatures in the whole deck, He is easily the second most powerful sliver and I think a basic forest to support him is warranted. Also I still don't like seeing daze at any less than 4. If you run only 3 daze you have less chance to topdeck them late game, but that also means less chance of seeing them in the opening hand. Additionally as far as counterspell is concerned I still don't like it and I don't think it is necessary, but I will test with it against something besides gobs and thresh. I know you guys are itchin to get the primer finished, and I don't mean to be an obstacle in that pursuit but I think some of these changes are making the deck more vulnerable to non-basic hate, and also slowing it down somewhat.

[Volt]

The lists you guys are posting are looking alot like mine with a couple of exceptions: I still think that running a basic forest is important to the deck. Muscle sliver is one of the most important creatures in the whole deck, He is easily the second most powerful sliver and I think a basic forest to support him is warranted. Also I still don't like seeing daze at any less than 4. If you run only 3 daze you have less chance to topdeck them late game, but that also means less chance of seeing them in the opening hand. Additionally as far as counterspell is concerned I still don't like it and I don't think it is necessary, but I will test with it against something besides gobs and thresh. I know you guys are itchin to get the primer finished, and I don't mean to be an obstacle in that pursuit but I think some of these changes are making the deck more vulnerable to non-basic hate, and also slowing it down somewhat.

Here's the thing about Dazes... The scrubbier your opponents are, the better Daze is. Bad players will walk right into them, while good players will always play around them. Against the latter, you're better off playing 3x Daze, because if your opponent is going to play around them anyway, you might as well free up a slot for something better. You still want to run three, though, to keep them honest. I think what we're aiming for here is a deck that will perform well in high-level competition. If you want to tweak your deck to perform a little better against the scrubs at your local weekend tournament, go right ahead. I do it all the time. Btw, have you noticed that most Gro decks run just 3 Dazes? There must be a reason for that.

[Maverick676]

Here's the thing about Dazes... The scrubbier your opponents are, the better Daze is. Bad players will walk right into them, while good players will always play around them. Against the latter, you're better off playing 3x Daze, because if your opponent is going to play around them anyway, you might as well free up a slot for something better. You still want to run three, though, to keep them honest. I think what we're aiming for here is a deck that will perform well in high-level competition. If you want to tweak your deck to perform a little better against the scrubs at your local weekend tournament, go right ahead. I do it all the time. Btw, have you noticed that most Gro decks run just 3 Dazes? There must be a reason for that.

While this is true. The fact that "better" opponents will play around them makes daze quite effective, It becomes a rishadan port that you don't have to invest mana in (hell it doesn't even need to be in your hand). Thus forcing your opponent to slow down his play and lose tempo and often the game because of it. Also even in high level competition people will always get anxious and forget to play around daze at some point in the game. Any card that is effective enough to force your opponents to play around it out of fear that it might be in your hand should be at 4 in a deck.

[Volt]

While this is true. The fact that "better" opponents will play around them makes daze quite effective, It becomes a rishadan port that you don't have to invest mana in (hell it doesn't even need to be in your hand). Thus forcing your opponent to slow down his play and lose tempo and often the game because of it. Also even in high level competition people will always get anxious and forget to play around daze at some point in the game. Any card that is effective enough to force your opponents to play around it out of fear that it might be in your hand should be at 4 in a deck.

Well, we may just have to agree to disagree on this one. I think 3x Daze is just as effective as 4x Daze, except when playing against inexperienced players. I frequently find Daze to be a dead card when playing against competent players, aside from the effect it has on their tempo. And the effect on their tempo will be the same, whether you're running 3 or 4 Dazes.

[xsockmonkeyx]

While this is true. The fact that "better" opponents will play around them makes daze quite effective, It becomes a rishadan port that you don't have to invest mana in (hell it doesn't even need to be in your hand). Thus forcing your opponent to slow down his play and lose tempo and often the game because of it.

If Daze doesnt need to be in your hand to be effective then it would follow that you could afford to run less of them and still achieve the same net effect.

[Maverick676]

the effect on their tempo will be the same, whether you're running 3 or 4 Dazes.

Wow you're totally right about that. My post actually kind of argues with itself lol. Anyway, in the list we end up posting in the open forum I'd agree with 3 dazes as it isn't too big of a deal. My main problem with the most recent list is a lack of a basic forest and also running 2 basic islands. Also with the fetchland split I still think that 3/3 is the way to go (obviously it wouldn't be if we weren't running a basic forest, but that just brings me back to my first point).

[Pinder]

On the subject of 2 Islands vs. 1 Island 1 Forest, I'll be the first to say I don't give a damn. Mav made a point to me in that the only deck we really have to worry about packing Wastelands is Goblins, and we don't need UU terribly much against Goblins. Either way, I don't think it makes enough of a difference for us to be arguing about it. As far as I'm concerned, the mana base could go two different ways with much the same result either way:

//Lands
4 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept Heath
1 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Plains

or

//Lands
3 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains


Or maybe some bastard hybrid of both:

//Lands
3 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
1 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains


I guess my main point is, we can bicker about the mana base in the Open if we really have to. I'm just itching to get it there. How about it?