[Deck] Pox

[mujadaddy]

Personally, I think Death Cloud is a stupid card. It costs FOUR mana (:b::b::b::1:) to do the same thing that Smallpox does for TWO (:b::b:). The way my Pox deck runs, I don't want to pay more mana than I have to for ANYTHING, much less symmetric sacrifice. /end Death_Cloud_Rant

Oh, also, Culling Scales+Nether Spirit = a Combo. :smile:

[Top Deck]

Pox can win, sure. With Death Cloud and self destructing lands, thats not a traditional pox deck.

Then again, I'm sure most Pox decks have an easy Top8 with so many The Cure decks in there.

yuanti i am pretty much pox man. just look at my old post history from two years ago.

i played it a ton and got very bored of it. clark kant pretty much put together 'vaka pox' on most of my suggestions ala dropping in white for vindicate and ghostly prison.

please dont talk down on me. you have no idea. anyhow death cloud isn't a traditional win condition, but it is a viable one. the main problem with pox is if they can get out 2 creature threats. this is where death cloud shines. you can death cloud them out of the game by removing either all of their lands and/or hand.

pox can't do that. it will leave them with a few and only will nerf everything if they have one of something (one card in hand or one land or one creature).

[YuanTi]

yuanti i am pretty much pox man. just look at my old post history from two years ago.

I'd love to, but you joined in Feb '07.


anyhow death cloud isn't a traditional win condition, but it is a viable one. the main problem with pox is if they can get out 2 creature threats. this is where death cloud shines. you can death cloud them out of the game by removing either all of their lands and/or hand.

Thats not a win condition at all. Death cloud isn't going to win you the game unless you have a hell of a lot of mana, which you don't, because you sacced it to Pox. As mujadaddy pointed out, at 4 mana, which is quite high for this deck, its a Smallpox.


pox can't do that. it will leave them with a few and only will nerf everything if they have one of something (one card in hand or one land or one creature).

Thus we run Sinkhole, Seize/Hymn, Blood or Smother and Vindicate.

[Top Deck]

I'd love to, but you joined in Feb '07.

Thats not a win condition at all. Death cloud isn't going to win you the game unless you have a hell of a lot of mana, which you don't, because you sacced it to Pox. As mujadaddy pointed out, at 4 mana, which is quite high for this deck, its a Smallpox.

Thus we run Sinkhole, Seize/Hymn, Blood or Smother and Vindicate.

i guess you could read up on his posts on salvation that he got the tech from me way back when. anyhow i got tired of playing white/black pox. ghostly prison is a great card, but it makes you feel dirty.

friends tend to play a LOT less if you are running it in pox.

you dont need a lot of mana to win with death cloud and remember you got crucible of worlds. and the key to death cloud is peat bog. since it nets you 2 mana per tap.

i used to run sinkholes (i got nice betas and alphas) and of course i run hymn/duress just like any other pox player, but cloud is just a more powerful pox. it cleans on the way up and not down.

also you can make them lose a fixed amount of life unlike pox where it is always a 1/3rd rounded up.

[YuanTi]

i guess you could read up on his posts on salvation that he got the tech from me way back when. anyhow i got tired of playing white/black pox. ghostly prison is a great card, but it makes you feel dirty.

Number One: Very Good Destroying Card in Pox. Good? Yes. Intuitive? No.
Number Two: Prison is no longer played in Pox.
Number Three: What does this have to do with Death Cloud exactly?


you dont need a lot of mana to win with death cloud and remember you got crucible of worlds. and the key to death cloud is peat bog. since it nets you 2 mana per tap.

At 4 mana its a Smallpox.
At 5 mana it 2 smallpoxes.
At 6 mana you're getting your money's worth with 3 smallpoxes.

Thats a lot of mana. You won't always get crucible, and lets not forget that the opponent may try to do things too.


also you can make them lose a fixed amount of life unlike pox where it is always a 1/3rd rounded up.

For a fixed ammount of life bigger than 1 (poxs minimum) were paying 5 mana. I presume we want bigger ammounts than 2, but that takes a whole load of mana.

[Fons]

// Lands
19 [MM] Swamp (4)
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)

// Creatures
3 [MM] Nether Spirit

// Spells
4 [IA] Pox
4 [TSP] Smallpox
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (2)
4 [7E] Duress
4 [MR] Culling Scales
3 [TE] Diabolic Edict
3 [WL] Spinning Darkness
4 [OD] Innocent Blood
4 [ON] Infest

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [AL] Dystopia
SB: 3 [US] Contamination
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [MR] Damping Matrix

How is this for a Pox list. I'm not sure about replacing my nether spirits because they combo so well with contamination

[YuanTi]

I'm currently running this:

// NAME: Vaka Pox

// Lands
4 [B] Scrubland
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [4E] Mishra's Factory
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [MI] Swamp (1)
1 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 [SOK] Tomb of Urami

// Creatures
3 [FUT] Tombstalker
3 [MM] Nether Spirit

// Spells
3 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
3 [R] Dark Ritual
4 [LOR] Thoughtseize
4 [A] Sinkhole
4 [IA] Pox
4 [AT] Hymn to Tourach
3 [AP] Vindicate
3 [OD] Innocent Blood
3 [TSP] Smallpox

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [IA] Disenchant
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 2 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [OD] Sphere of Law

Your version may want more win conditions. Tombstalker is especially good, and makes use of your used spells. I'd recommend splashing White if possible, because vindicate is excellent, and the SB options improve.

[Fons]

I'm currently running this:

// NAME: Vaka Pox

// Lands
4 Scrubland
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [4E] Mishra's Factory
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [MI] Swamp (1)
1 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 [SOK] Tomb of Urami

// Creatures
3 [FUT] Tombstalker
3 [MM] Nether Spirit

// Spells
3 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
[B]3 [R] Dark Ritual
4 [LOR] Thoughtseize
4 [A] Sinkhole
4 [IA] Pox
4 [AT] Hymn to Tourach
3 [AP] Vindicate
3 [OD] Innocent Blood
3 [TSP] Smallpox

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [IA] Disenchant
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 2 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [OD] Sphere of Law

Your version may want more win conditions. Tombstalker is especially good, and makes use of your used spells. I'd recommend splashing White if possible, because vindicate is excellent, and the SB options improve.

I thought it was decided that dark ritual is not good enough in pox.

[YuanTi]

I thought it was decided that dark ritual is not good enough in pox.

When did that happen?

Turn 1 Seize/Hymn or Spirit is nothing to laugh at.

[mujadaddy]

lets not forget that the opponent may try to do things too.This, every day, all day long.

@Fons: I like your list, but it needs less creature hate & more threats. +3 Tombstalker -3 Spinning Darkness? (If Spinning hit players, too, I'd be all for it.)

@YuanTi: No Ghostly Prisons? Also, how do you find your vs. Blue Control matchups go?

re: Dark Ritual -- I'll never cut to below the max. (reminder: mono:b: here) They're just tooooo broken.

[GGoober]

I am not too sure but in Extended there exists a viable deck using synergies of Death Cloud and Garruk (Garruk doesn't die to pox/cloud effects and generates tokens to beat when the board is cleared). I'm not sure if Legacy will be able to pull the high mana cost of Death Cloud with Garruk. If possible, we can try for a BG aggro-control pox. Shrugs.

[alebronwebb]

Has Ghostly Prison really been replaced in Bw Pox? Everytime I played them they just pretty much seal the deal Pox-effects start.

I'll side with Mujadaddy on Death Cloud, it's just too expensive. I believe YuanTi and Mujadaddy already said everything I would say about it, so eh.

[Top Deck]

I am not too sure but in Extended there exists a viable deck using synergies of Death Cloud and Garruk (Garruk doesn't die to pox/cloud effects and generates tokens to beat when the board is cleared). I'm not sure if Legacy will be able to pull the high mana cost of Death Cloud with Garruk. If possible, we can try for a BG aggro-control pox. Shrugs.

so far there are only a few cards which function like pox (symetrical side effects everyone discards and sacs lands and critters).

the grand daddy of them all: balance.

then pox

then death cloud

then small pox

one could get monoblack, black/white, or black/green.

am i missing something here? is there another card out there just like the balance/pox/death cloud/smallpox?


o if you play dark ritual then death cloud is definitely viable.

[mujadaddy]

o if you play dark ritual then death cloud is definitely viable.No. I disagree that Death Cloud is even DESIREABLE, much less viable.

[Clark Kant]

Now that several people are running Culling Scales to deal with the cards that monoblack otherwise can't answer, I'm wondering how you guys are liking the card?


Has Ghostly Prison really been replaced in Bw Pox?

No they haven't. It's still the second best reason to splash white. If your meta doesn't have pure aggro, then you may not need it as pox effects and pinpoint removal might be sufficent, but I would still run it regardless.

I too think that Death cloud is way too mana intensive for this deck and eight pox effects (Pox and Smallpox) are more than enough with the remaining slots going to onesided land destruction, removal or discard. But hey, whatever works for you.

Your build looks solid Yuanti. I agree that Tombstalker is an absoulute bomb that every pox list should run (it's a fairly cheap rare too thankfully).

Just a few things...

23 lands seems too low for this deck imo. I wouldn't go below 24.

Why only 1 Tomb of Yawgmoth? It's a fantastic mana fixer if you're running Wasteland or Factories, and a must have if you play both.

I know it's legendary but I've been able to support a full playset regardless. You can always discard or sac the extras to your pox effects.

I would never run less than 3 Tomb of Yawgmoth in a build with both Wasteland and Factories.

I really do think that you would be well served to run the last Vindicate, Smallpox and atleast one more land in place of the Dark Ritual. Dark Ritual just doesn't do enough imho.

Otherwise, the build looks solid.

[eternaldarkness]

23 lands seems too low for this deck imo. I wouldn't go below 24.

I have tried shaving a land and go down to 23. I haven't encountered any problems so far, but I haven't been able to play the deck that much recently so I can be off here. My question: Is 24 lands really necessary? And has this been adequately tested?

@Topdeck concerning Death Cloud: List?

[Fons]

Culling Scales has been great to me, It's really good early, and after you clear most of the board it can be devestating. Doing some testing against combo it even proved to be useful (that is if you can keep the game going for four turns) It kills lotus petals, LED, and SI's wall creatures.

This is my revised build
// Lands
19 [MM] Swamp (4)
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)

// Creatures
3 [MM] Nether Spirit
3 [FUT] Tombstalker

// Spells
4 [IA] Pox
4 [TSP] Smallpox
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (2)
4 [7E] Duress
4 [MR] Culling Scales
3 [WL] Spinning Darkness
4 [OD] Innocent Blood
4 [ON] Infest

Infest is still a bomb in my meta so it's going to stay.

Spinning Darkness might need to be taken out now that I have tombstalker.

I'm going to attemp to trade for Urborgs.

The changes I'm thinking about making are

-3 Spinning Darkness

+3 Crucible of Worlds

[Top Deck]

I have tried shaving a land and go down to 23. I haven't encountered any problems so far, but I haven't been able to play the deck that much recently so I can be off here. My question: Is 24 lands really necessary? And has this been adequately tested?

@Topdeck concerning Death Cloud: List?

at the list with the death cloud. i dont have it unfortunately. it isn't my build. i play BW versions of pox with yes vindicate and ghostly prison.

but the death cloud version is monoblack. from what i remember what it ran it ran peat bog (which is amazing with the card) pox, small pox, hymn, duress, crucible of worlds, chimeric idol, nether spirit, dark ritual, .... and the rest i can't remember.

i just remember whenever the guy death clouded it was the house. gg folks style. he didnt always death cloud nor did he always pox. he poxed a certain points and death clouded at others. of course i was drawn to this build since he went undefeated (no one was running burn everyone was running combo, thres, fish, stax, and some aggro), and since he was running monoblack pox. :eek:

[YuanTi]

No they haven't. It's still the second best reason to splash white. If your meta doesn't have pure aggro, then you may not need it as pox effects and pinpoint removal might be sufficent, but I would still run it regardless.

All the decks have ways to deal with it these days. With the Counterbalance hate around, Prisons never seem to stick except in 1 or 2 rare matchups.


Your build looks solid Yuanti. I agree that Tombstalker is an absoulute bomb that every pox list should run (it's a fairly cheap rare too thankfully).

Tombstalker is amazing, it rarely costs more than BB, and you give the opponent a 4 turn (if you havent done anything else) flying clock to deal with.


23 lands seems too low for this deck imo. I wouldn't go below 24.

23/24 both seem to work for me. I dont get screwed enough for it to be a worry.


Why only 1 Tomb of Yawgmoth? It's a fantastic mana fixer if you're running Wasteland or Factories, and a must have if you play both.

List is slightly outdated, I've got 1 more now, and another is on the way. With 4 I get them too much though, so 3 is preferable IMO.


I really do think that you would be well served to run the last Vindicate, Smallpox and atleast one more land in place of the Dark Ritual. Dark Ritual just doesn't do enough imho.

I'll test that, See if I prefer it.

[Clark Kant]

I have tried shaving a land and go down to 23. I haven't encountered any problems so far, but I haven't been able to play the deck that much recently so I can be off here. My question: Is 24 lands really necessary? And has this been adequately tested?

@Topdeck concerning Death Cloud: List?

Well, my list (see the Vaka Pox thread) runs 25 land, and I'm 100% satisfied with it.

If you have too many lands, you can always discard those to Pox effects and retain your business spells. So in reality, there is rarely such a thing as mana flood, you always have to discard stuff to Pox anyways.

Mana screw on the other hand is something this deck absolutely needs to avoid to keep the disruption going.

My favorite play is...

Turn 1 - lay Tomb of Yawgmoth Duress,
Turn 2 - lay Fetchland (Don't sac it) Sinkhole,
Turn 3 - lay Wasteland and play Pox off the 3 black (that wouldn't be possible without Tomb of Yawgmoth), sac fetchland to Pox.
Turn 4 - lay Fetchland, sac fetchland for a tundra, sac Wasteland to take out your opponents last land and play Tombstalker with your two remaining land.

Odds are, your opponent is completely out of lands and won't see one for a while you have a 5/5 flyer on your side.

Such plays wouldn't be possible without a high land count and lots of Tomb of Yawgmoths and Tombstalkers.

A few things to consider though.

I run a full playset of both Pox and Smallpox (something I strongly recommend), so I end up having to discard more than a build with only 6-7 pox effects.

My build runs 4 Wastelands, and I almost always use them to blow up lands as soon as I can.

My build runs a ton of high cc cards, 4 Vindicate, 4 Pox, 4 Tombstalker, 3 Crucible, 3 Ghostly Prison, so it's esp important that the deck not get mana screwed.

Monoblack runs at a lower curve usually, with cards like Innocent Blood and what not, so it's not as mana hungry.

Based on your build's curve, you might be best off running 24 lands, but I really wouldn't go below that personally.

I sometimes play Vaka Pox with 24 lands, but that's only when I am playing a build that plays 3 Flagstones of Trokair.

[Clark Kant]

Here is my 24 land tweaked build with Epochrasite and 3 Pox effects from October of last year...




// Lands
4 Wasteland
4 Swamp
4 Scrubland
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Flagstones of Trokair

// Creatures
4 Tombstalker
3 Epochrasite

// Spells
4 Thoughtsieze
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate
3 Pox
3 Rancid Earth
3 Ghostly Prison

// Sideboard
1 Ghostly Prison
3 Chains of Mephistopheles
3 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Duress/The Tabernacle at Pendrall Vale


It's a solid build. I really haven't been able to figure out which build is stronger.

P.S. In case you didn't realise it, Rancid Earth gives you a great way to kill the 1/1 Epochrasite, without hurting the 4/4 Epochrasite (or letting it trade with a 4/5 Tarmogoyf).

Still lets me pull off the...

Turn 1 - lay Tomb of Yawgmoth Duress,
Turn 2 - lay Fetchland (Don't sac it) Sinkhole,
Turn 3 - lay Wasteland and play Pox off the 3 black (that wouldn't be possible without Tomb of Yawgmoth), sac fetchland to Pox.
Turn 4 - lay Fetchland, sac fetchland for a tundra, sac Wasteland to take out your opponents last land and play Tombstalker with your two remaining land.

Play that I love.

[Poxrocks]

I ran Death Cloud and Peat Bog for awhile.

Peat Bog is horrible. It kills itself way too often early game, making Pox and Small Pox a lot more taxing than they should be. Nevermind that it comes into play tapped, can only be used twice, and only nets you ONE extra :b: in the long run. Seriously, just use Dark Rituals and swamps.

Death Cloud IS good, but it's a mid/late game bomb. It's useless your first few turns, but later on with 5-6 mana in play it can seal the deal better than Pox can. You can't really use Tombstalker if you cast Death Clouds regularly, as the set creature sacrifice and discard makes it much hard to work around.

[Clark Kant]

Death Cloud is a win more card. If you run enough land destruction (white pox has an easy time doing this). All you need to do is get to the midgame (the earliest that Death Cloud is half way decent), and you'll have already won, thanks to Ghostly Prison and Wasteland cycling thru Crucible.

If you like utility lands, try Darkmor Salvage.

It's fantastic if you need to make sure you always have a land to sac to Pox and Smallpox. Dredging comes in handy for Tombstalker (and Nether Spirit) too.

[Fons]

Here's my new list.
// Lands
15 [MM] Swamp (4)
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
4 [FUT] Dakmor Salvage

// Creatures
3 [MM] Nether Spirit
3 [FUT] Tombstalker

// Spells
4 [IA] Pox
4 [TSP] Smallpox
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (2)
4 [7E] Duress
4 [MR] Culling Scales
3 [WL] Spinning Darkness
4 [OD] Innocent Blood
4 [ON] Infest

Dakmor Salvage is pretty slick it makes sure that you have a land and it puts stuff in your yard.

Has Nihilith been tested in this?

Last night I played Aggro Loam and Affinity and went 2-1 against both.

Culling scales was sometimes a bomb and other times it was a dead card. Against Loam I could play it as a precaution as all of there creatures have low CC and it also killed mox diamonds.

Against affinity it killed ravager a couple of times and confident once.

[mujadaddy]

Dakmor Salvage is pretty slick it makes sure that you have a land and it puts stuff in your yard.With 23 lands, do you really want to skip your draw step to fill up the yard? Other than Tombstalker, why?

Has Nihilith been tested in this?Yes, too slow. You die waiting for it to hit the board.

Last night I played Aggro Loam and Affinity and went 2-1 against both.

Culling scales was sometimes a bomb and other times it was a dead card. Against Loam I could play it as a precaution as all of there creatures have low CC and it also killed mox diamonds.

Against affinity it killed ravager a couple of times and confident once.Personally, I wouldn't run 4 Culling scales, but rather 3, and cut to 3 Infest, 3 Scales, and then add 2....... something :wink: . I'm looking for a spot to maindeck the Culling Scales; they're still in my sideboard.

[Phantom]

I think if you were going to go Dredge you should go all out with Imps, Crucibles, Strongholds, Factories, Dakmor Salvage, Skeletal Scrying, and probably Jittes. Playing Strongholds that you've dredged up to recur Tombstalkers you never even casted to begin with sounds nice, but is probably just a Cool Thing.

[Michael Keller]

I remember Damping Engine used to play Plague Spitter (http://findmagiccards.com/Cards/IN/Plague_Spitter.html). Assuming you choose to pack Nether Spirit, Hypnotic Specter, Tombstalker, etc., he would seem like a reasonable consideration.

[mujadaddy]

I remember Damping Engine used to play Plague Spitter (http://findmagiccards.com/Cards/IN/Plague_Spitter.html). Assuming you choose to pack Nether Spirit, Hypnotic Specter, Tombstalker, etc., he would seem like a reasonable consideration.Funnily enough, I was thinking about squeezing in Plague Spitter this morning :laugh:

[Michael Keller]

That card used to be a house and still is, really. It essentially shuts down one-toughness creatures, which can free up some spot removal. And paired with Smallpox, that can be a little nasty.

[Fons]

With 23 lands, do you really want to skip your draw step to fill up the yard? Other than Tombstalker, why?


It has a chance to put nether spirit into play.

It makes spinning darkness better.

I don't think cutting cards that are good for cards that we can't decide on is a bad idea.

[mujadaddy]

Yeah, I was thinking on the "disruption-vs-threats" problem in the deck, and, having already decided to experiment with Withering Wisps and LOVING it*, I said to myself, "Shit, Plague Spitter is a clock if they can't deal with it, plus it swings" ... the only dissynergy being having a Spitter+Nether Spirit on board... But hey.

Although, I *just* thought of all this and haven't fit it into the decklist yet, much less tested it.






*Last night, playing UG Thresh: Midgame: he drops Goyf, I get something countered. He drops Goyf #2, I stick Withering Wisps. He swings me down to 9 and drops a THIRD Goyf at 4/5. I Wisps for 5, clearing the board, and ride my Tombstalker next turn to victory. Try THAT without Damnations or Wraths. :cool:



It has a chance to put nether spirit into play.

It makes spinning darkness better.Yeah, but I think Spinning Darkness is too narrow.


I don't think cutting cards that are good for cards that we can't decide on is a bad idea.Wait, you DON'T or you DO?

[Fons]

Wait, you DON'T or you DO?

sorry I should have worded that different but my battery was about to die so I was in a hurry.

I should have said "I think cutting cards that are good for cards that we can't decide on is a bad idea."

[Nihil Credo]

*Last night, playing UG Thresh: Midgame: he drops Goyf, I get something countered. He drops Goyf #2, I stick Withering Wisps. He swings me down to 9 and drops a THIRD Goyf at 4/5. I Wisps for 5, clearing the board, and ride my Tombstalker next turn to victory. Try THAT without Damnations or Wraths. :cool:
Your opponent must have been functionally retarded. That's some of the most ridiculous overextending I have ever seen.

[mujadaddy]

Your opponent must have been functionally retarded. That's some of the most ridiculous overextending I have ever seen.
Well, I did hit land drops on those turns, but yeah, he could have made the game harder by keeping goyf#3 in-hand... but Pox packs discarding, so i guess he just wanted the game to end... I went 2-1 without sideboarding, btw :cool:

[Michael Keller]

Your opponent must have been functionally retarded. That's some of the most ridiculous overextending I have ever seen.

Well considering he didn't clear the board when there were two Goyfs out and he's playing mono-black, the opponent probably was under the assumption he didn't have a Damnation in hand otherwise he would've already used it. But you're right: That's serious over-extending. Once the second Gof hit, he dropped Wisp. Poxing away one Goyf and nixing your own land while trying to stop the other isn't exactly a safe play. But just out of curiousity, how did Tombstalker stay alive with a Wisp for five? Did you play him after (I'm assuming)? And would that have made a difference because the opposing Goyf got bigger (you would be at 4)?

[mujadaddy]

Well considering he didn't clear the board when there were two Goyfs out and he's playing mono-black, the opponent probably was under the assumption he didn't have a Damnation in hand otherwise he would've already used it. But you're right: That's serious over-extending. Once the second Gof hit, he dropped Wisp. Poxing away one Goyf and nixing your own land while trying to stop the other isn't exactly a safe play. But just out of curiousity, how did Tombstalker stay alive with a Wisp for five? Did you play him after (I'm assuming)? And would that have made a difference because the opposing Goyf got bigger (you would be at 4)?
I saved the Tombstalker until after I cleared the board (which garnered a :S from him :smile: . There were already creatures in the yard--they made the goyf 4/5. I was going to drop wisps a turn earlier when the first one was only 3/4, but I decided to wait & bait out a counter once the goyf grew to 4/5. I hate that guy :laugh: but not as much as I hate Stifle. That card is bullshit. :tongue:

[rleader]

Just backing up to cover something:


I thought it was decided that dark ritual is not good enough in pox.

Dark Ritual's presence or lack there of shouldn't be about going "rit, duress, hymn," it's about what sideboard cards you intend to bring in. If you depend upon cards like Trinisphere or E. Plague or Dystopia or Desolation or any of a number of budget sideboard cards, being able to power it out is nice, as is the fact that ritual often makes hands that you'd think about throwing back in mulligans entirely keepable. As placing the rituals in your sideboard would be silly and rob you of room for actual cards, you're forced to put them in the main deck. Sad but true.

If, on the other hand, your sideboard contains scary cards from Legends like Tabernacle or Chains of Meph., or splash cards like additional Ghostly Prisons or Pernicious Deed, Ritual is not so important and can be easily dismissed.

IMO, that's the deciding issue for Dark Ritual. It's not about how powerful it is, but what it can enable vs. decks that might totally overrun you. (If you sideboard in 4 Leylines and 4 Trinisphere vs. Dredge, even if you don't draw a Leyline, you still might get a Ritual + Trinisphere)

Playing the spells you normally play at a faster rate is typically no real advantage (save for being able to get a main deck Powder Keg out first turn vs. Dredge, sorry to use the same example, it's a nice play against goblins, too). Dark Ritual's value is in the context of your sideboard.

I think for most Pox players, given the sideboards they run, Dark Ritual *is* advised -- if only by the slimmest of margins.

One must keep that in mind both in deck construction (it influences the land count by one or two, certainly) and in play (it's not there just so you can empty your OWN hand at the same speed you empty your opponent's).

[mujadaddy]

Nice post.
ritual often makes hands that you'd think about throwing back in mulligans entirely keepable.
This, especially, is why I run Dark Ritual. Even though I run 19 swamps, sometimes I get starting hands with 1 swamp and 2 mishra's factory. Dark Ritual gives me options other than waiting for another swamp.

[Clark Kant]

That's why you ought to run Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth.

[mujadaddy]

How does that help in a hand with 1 swamp and 2 mishra's factory? or are you saying to cut swamps for urborgs? I'm not really interested in making myself (more) vulnerable to Wasteland/Back2Basics/and Blood Moon. As my list stands now, Wasteland becomes nothing but 'creature removal' for my opponents.

[Clark Kant]

You realize that you can't cast Pox off of even 2 Swamps and 1 Factory don't you, much less 2 Factories? If one of the Swamps was a Urborg, you could.

[mujadaddy]

Yeah, I realize, thanks :laugh:

There's just a looooot of nonbasic land hate out there for me to worry about Urborg when I'm going for a mono:b: list.


I've been considering Imp's Mischief for the sideboard... It's pretty narrow, but it'd be nice to redirect the occasional spell from time to time...

[Clark Kant]

It seems rather narrow in this deck. If it wasn't for the lifeloss, it might have been decent. What do you redirect? You can't redirect countermagic and you will almost never have the mana to both play a Sinkhole and protect it with an Imp's Mischief early on, when countermagic actually matters. The only thing to misdirect imo is the creature kill (protect Tombstalker) and burn away from your dome. Losing life to misdirect burn is counterproductive, and you have discard, and mana disruption to protect tombstalker.

Any thoughts on Epochrasite? Has anyone tried running the card with Tombstalker in the monoblack pox lists?

A 4/4 is a pretty strong roadblock against random (ie. nongoyf based) aggro. Much more so than a 2/2. It is one turn slower to get back than Nether Spirit though.




// Lands
4 Wasteland
4 Swamp
4 Scrubland
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Flagstones of Trokair

// Creatures
4 Tombstalker
3 Epochrasite

// Spells
4 Thoughtsieze
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate
3 Pox
3 Rancid Earth
3 Ghostly Prison

// Sideboard
1 Ghostly Prison
3 Chains of Mephistopheles
3 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 The Tabernacle at Pendrall Vale


I run him in the above list because the deck couldn't support both Mishra's Factories and Flagstones, so I figured Epochrasite would work well as the bonus threat while allowing me to cut Crucible.

But then again, the classic Vaka Pox list that uses both Crucibles and Factories instead is very strong too.




// Lands
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
4 Scrubland
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
3 Swamp
3 Mishra's Factory

// Threats
4 Tombstalker

// Disruption
4 Thoughtsieze
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate
4 Pox
3 Crucible of Worlds
2 Ghostly Prison
2 Rancid Earth

// Sideboard
2 Duress
2 Ghostly Prison
3 Chains of Mephistopheles
4 Chalice of the Void
4 The Tabernacle at Pendrall Vale

It lets me get away with running the full 4 Poxes as I have Crucible and only have 4 creatures that die to Pox.

I'm just trying to figure out which list is better.

[Land]

14-man tournament
Round 1
Game 1...

Opening hand: Swamp, Swamp, Dark Ritual, Tombstalker, Tombstalker, Smallpox, Hymn to Tourach

- G/R Welder Survival mulligans to 5 on the play.
- Wooded Foothills crack, Taiga, Welder

Draw for turn, Dark Ritual.
At this point I realized that the game state had taken a drastic turn in my favor. I look the hand over, knowing the power play is there...

Swamp
Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual
- Ok.
Smallpox, pitch Tombstalker
- =(
Announce the Tombstalker being played and scrape my grave away. Your go.
- OMGWTFBBQHAX!!!@!@!@ (not really... his reaction was not near as exuberant, but none the less effective in relaying his tension.)

3rd place win overall.
G/R Welder went on to intentional draw against Tinker for 1st place since both decks were owned by the same player.

[Maëlig]

Nice play Land, and congrats for the 3rd place. :)
Has anyone thought of solutions for this deck against burn and sligh decks? Those are terrible MU and if pox is to become competitive this is the main problem it will have to answer to imho. Now I know those 2 decks "shouldn't" be played in a competitive environment, but from my experience you always come across some and it's disapointing to lose against decks that are probably not going to make it to the top anyways. The only good option I see is putting 4 sun droplet in the SB, which I have been testing recently. The MU is still pretty bad, but if you have the chance of getting one in your opening hand you have your chances, and a second one is usually game. The problem is that red has access to good artifact-hate, and that it seems a bit too narrow as a SB option (it seriously limits your options).

[mujadaddy]

Burn is a horrible matchup. Only supreme luck with discard can help.

Sligh -- just board in more creature hate.

[kabal]

14-man

3rd place win overall.


Could you share your decklist? Thanks.

[eternaldarkness]

Burn is indeed horrible. I suggest you pray not to get paired against burn during a tourney. If you do find yourself facing a burn deck, side out all the poxes.

The droplet is too weak against burn and is a pretty narrow sideboard choice. You may want to consider Chalice of the Void if there's a lot of burn in your meta. Chalice at 1 can hurt you a little, but most of our 1cc spells (Thoughtseize + Dark Ritual) anyway are pretty much dead after the early game.

[mujadaddy]

Burn - prayTotally :tongue:

Oddly enough, I couldn't get back to sleep last night, and it occurred to me that Chalice@1 solves a lot of the deck's problems.

[rleader]

Just in the realm of speculation at this point, but if you played Beseech the Queen, what bullets would you pick? My first brainstorm went something like this:


6 Snow Covered Swamp
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb

4 Dark Ritual
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
2 Powder Keg

4 Beseech the Queen
1 Rhystic Tutor (I think the deck might be able to get away with running this as a singleton)
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Planar Void
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Engineered Plague
1 Extirpate
1 Painter's Servant
1 Grindstone

3 Tombstalker

Side:

3 Trinisphere
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Extirpate
3 Pox
1 Dystopia
1 Sphere of Resistance

I dropped Pox to make room for everything, but it can come back in to replace useless bullets. I'm curious to test to see if the deck can slow down an opponent enough where it can afford to waste a turn tutoring. If the effect is powerful enough, I think it can, especially as a lot of decks are unprepared for hate in game one. Also, where as other decks use two or three slots on Crucible, here, you only need one for when you know you can set up a lock.

A good portion of the bullets can be found off of a turn one dark-ritual into Beseech, as you only need one (or zero) lands.

I'm mostly just thinking theory at this point. Which is why I stripped the Factories for the Ancient Tombs and tossed in the Grindstone kill (if you ever accidentally fall upon one of the pieces, tutor for the other).

[mujadaddy]

Rhystic Tutor? No. Don't give your opponent a choice as to whether your tutor works or not. There are at least 3 better tutors out there.

Beseech the Queen? I don't think so either -- you'd rather not show the opponent what you're about to do to them if you can help it.
I'm curious to test to see if the deck can slow down an opponent enough where it can afford to waste a turn tutoring.Certainly. Have you played the deck much? This deck specializes in getting both sides into top-deck mode.

I'm mostly just thinking theory at this point. Which is why I stripped the Factories for the Ancient Tombs and tossed in the Grindstone kill (if you ever accidentally fall upon one of the pieces, tutor for the other)....Ancient Tomb? No wai. What's your reasoning for that? Run uh... that rainbow land that pings for 1 before Tomb... And the Grindstone kill is NOT for this deck, imo. And Mishra's Factories are really powerful... in this deck, too.

[Aggro_zombies]

Beseech the Queen? I don't think so either -- you'd rather not show the opponent what you're about to do to them if you can help it.Certainly. Have you played the deck much? This deck specializes in getting both sides into top-deck mode.
...except this deck has the worst topdeck mode in the format. At least Nourishing Lich can win if it gets a Shoal and a Wurm. Here, drawing a Hymn, Sinkhole, Ritual, Thoughtseize, or land when your opponent is in topdeck mode is like asking to get raped.

Having played this deck a lot in the past I can say, somewhat unhelpfully, that it isn't viable. Basically, you're playing a deck that tries to put both players into a game mode where you will almost always lose (unless you're insanely lucky and/or you don't run Pox) because you have more dead cards in the aforementioned game mode than they do. Drawing a Thoughtseize and then having your opponent draw and play a Tarmogoyf right after you Poxed is a kick in the nuts. I abandoned this deck because I couldn't find a way (and still can't, really) to overcome your terrible mid- to late-game.

That said, if people really want to work on this deck, I think removing all of the Poxes is a good first step. Let's face it, Pox is a terrible card. It forces you to play a host of subpar cards so that you can come out "ahead" after casting another subpar card that pushes you into a game state where black disruption decks typically have problems. Dropping Pox allows you to focus on play stuff that's actually good but not synergistic with Pox.

I'd also suggest splashing green. Life from the Loam and cycling lands are great, Tarmogoyf is great, Eternal Witness is great, Genesis is great. If you want a lighter green splash, use Volrath's Stronghold and Regrowth instead. You also have access now to Deed, Krosan Grip, and potentially Living Wish (recurring Fulminator Mage seems hot). You've also got access to dredge guys, which are really good in a deck with a lot of symmetrical sacrifice effects - the best probably being Grave-Shell Scarab here. Garruk is also a house because he can accelerate you pre-Pox/Smallpox and shit out tons of guys immediately afterwards. Basically, running green allows you to further break the inherent disadvantage to playing symmetrical destruction effects by giving you access to better men, better removal, and better recursion.

[Top Deck]

...except this deck has the worst topdeck mode in the format. At least Nourishing Lich can win if it gets a Shoal and a Wurm. Here, drawing a Hymn, Sinkhole, Ritual, Thoughtseize, or land when your opponent is in topdeck mode is like asking to get raped.

Having played this deck a lot in the past I can say, somewhat unhelpfully, that it isn't viable. Basically, you're playing a deck that tries to put both players into a game mode where you will almost always lose (unless you're insanely lucky and/or you don't run Pox) because you have more dead cards in the aforementioned game mode than they do. Drawing a Thoughtseize and then having your opponent draw and play a Tarmogoyf right after you Poxed is a kick in the nuts. I abandoned this deck because I couldn't find a way (and still can't, really) to overcome your terrible mid- to late-game.

That said, if people really want to work on this deck, I think removing all of the Poxes is a good first step. Let's face it, Pox is a terrible card. It forces you to play a host of subpar cards so that you can come out "ahead" after casting another subpar card that pushes you into a game state where black disruption decks typically have problems. Dropping Pox allows you to focus on play stuff that's actually good but not synergistic with Pox.

I'd also suggest splashing green. Life from the Loam and cycling lands are great, Tarmogoyf is great, Eternal Witness is great, Genesis is great. If you want a lighter green splash, use Volrath's Stronghold and Regrowth instead. You also have access now to Deed, Krosan Grip, and potentially Living Wish (recurring Fulminator Mage seems hot). You've also got access to dredge guys, which are really good in a deck with a lot of symmetrical sacrifice effects - the best probably being Grave-Shell Scarab here. Garruk is also a house because he can accelerate you pre-Pox/Smallpox and shit out tons of guys immediately afterwards. Basically, running green allows you to further break the inherent disadvantage to playing symmetrical destruction effects by giving you access to better men, better removal, and better recursion.


Pox is honestly better at the mid/late game. Both players are in top deck; however, you have constant threats like nether spirit and chimeric idol. The idea is your top decks are better than their because your's should require less resources to power out, and you have resource denial in both perm destruction and hand destruction.

This is also one of the reasons why pox is bad against monored burn. Burn generally needs even less resources than pox (a land and a bolt of some type). :p

This is the reason why nether spirit is invaluable in the deck. It essentially is a "free" spell. Oddly enough i was thinking about combining pox with some type of ichorid strategy since ichorid requires probably even less resources, but the problem with that is the number of card slots required. Ichorid requires a lot of slots to keep it going or fed.

[Cabal-kun]

Both players are in top deck; however, you have constant threats like nether spirit and chimeric idol. The idea is your top decks are better than their because your's should require less resources to power out, and you have resource denial in both perm destruction and hand destruction.

I can totally see top decking discard when they can draw and play their cards during their turn as being better than anything else. Drawing dead cards = tech. Did you read Aggro_zombie's post at all when you quoted it?

[Maëlig]

Hum... on another note, has anyone tried cremate MD? I'm a bit concerned about the lack of GY hate MD since pox doesn't do well against decks resilient to mana-denial and/or discard such as ichorid and LftL-decks. At worse, it cycles for 1, fills your GY for tomb stalker and can remove a creature blocking nether spirit from your GY.

[rleader]

Rhystic Tutor? No. Don't give your opponent a choice as to whether your tutor works or not. There are at least 3 better tutors out there.

Not at three mana, not for less than $200 a playset. With all the LD in the deck, the opponent is going to have to tap out at some point, which is why I suggested Rhystic might be playable as a one-of.


Having played this deck a lot in the past I can say,

IOW, before Tombstalker was invented.

I'd play a Pox deck against a Garruk deck any day of the week.


Hum... on another note, has anyone tried cremate MD?

Interesting idea.

[Michael Keller]

Dropping Pox allows you to focus on play stuff that's actually good but not synergistic with Pox.

Dropping Pox turns this deck into solid M.B.C. If that's what you want, then fine. But Pox is not a bad card, not by any means. I suppose you can offer comparisons to Death Cloud (which is far more devastating if you can resolve it), but Pox the card should in no way be dismissed as simply "bad". That card is the heart and soul of the deck, and can swing the game in a tremendous way.

[Aggro_zombies]

That card is the heart and soul of the deck, and can swing the game in a tremendous way.
And Pox the deck is a terrible deck. Seriously, you have to play things like Nether Spirit and Chimeric Idol to win when your opponent can pack Tarmogoyf and Nimble Mongoose? Something seems wrong there.

[Michael Keller]

Well maybe what Pox needs is a small color splash to add a little consistency and resiliency.

[mujadaddy]

Hum... on another note, has anyone tried cremate MD? I'm a bit concerned about the lack of GY hate MD since pox doesn't do well against decks resilient to mana-denial and/or discard such as ichorid and LftL-decks. At worse, it cycles for 1, fills your GY for tomb stalker and can remove a creature blocking nether spirit from your GY.Cremate: not the worst suggestion I've ever seen... But maindecking such narrow GY hate doesn't really excite me... Ichorid & LftL are dead meat after sideboarding, though, don't you think? I've had sooo many Ichorid players scoop to a turn 0 Leyline... and Loam players scoop after about 6 or 7 turns, too.

re "Cut Pox": I've cut down to two. The reasons you don't want to cut them out completely, though, is because 1/3 of the opponent's life is a sexxxxxxy number for them to lose. It makes everything else the deck tries to do work better, ie, faster.

My computer at home died Monday night, so I haven't tested Chalice of the Void yet, but I'm betting that Chalice at 1 is going to be a big thing (Brainstorm & Mongoose, just to name 2 pains in my ass :laugh: )

re: Tutors for $200/playset -- Um, Infernals? -- also, why run FOUR tutors? 1 or two should be enough, no?

[Poxrocks]

Well maybe what Pox needs is a small color splash to add a little consistency and resiliency.

Click here for Vaka Pox (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5496) (:b: :w:)

[mujadaddy]

Well maybe what Pox needs is a small color splash to add a little consistency and resiliency."Consistency" doesn't arise from depending on a second color. White & Green have a lot to offer, but the manabase suffers, in my opinion.


And Pox the deck is a terrible deck. Seriously, you have to play things like Nether Spirit and Chimeric Idol to win when your opponent can pack Tarmogoyf and Nimble Mongoose? Something seems wrong there.You may be right about Pox-the-Deck. It does miserably bad vs. Burn, rather terrible vs. Vial Goblins, and not good at all if it has a slow start vs. Stax. I also think that the 24+ land manabases of most legacy decks makes land destruction a losing battle.

However, with that having been said, a Pox deck can do a lot of damage to all comers if it sees the right hand. I also think that the massive destuctive power of Small/Pox is a good fit for the MBC shell that Pox.deck, let's face it, is.

[Poxrocks]

And Pox the deck is a terrible deck. Seriously, you have to play things like Nether Spirit and Chimeric Idol to win when your opponent can pack Tarmogoyf and Nimble Mongoose? Something seems wrong there.

Why should a Pox player care about Tarmogoyf or Mongoose? Other decks can pack whatever creatures they want, Idol and Nether Spirit are too busy not dying to symmetric disruption.

Anyways, the only way a Goyf or a Mongoose would be hitting me is if I don't draw the 16-19 cards that would destroy those creatures, the 16 cards that would make you pitch the counters that protect those creatures, the 12cards that destroy the lands you need to cast those creatures, or the 8 cards that do all three things at once.

[Aggro_zombies]

Well maybe what Pox needs is a small color splash to add a little consistency and resiliency.

I'd also suggest splashing green.
/facepalm


However, with that having been said, a Pox deck can do a lot of damage to all comers if it sees the right hand.
Yes, but isn't this true of any deck? The real test of a deck's strength is how much damage it can inflict in the absence of a God Hand. Threshold is such a powerful deck because it is so consistent in power level even without getting the "nuts draw." If Pox.dec doesn't get the nuts, things tend to go downhill rapidly.

EDIT:
Why should a Pox player care about Tarmogoyf or Mongoose? Other decks can pack whatever creatures they want, Idol and Nether Spirit are too busy not dying to symmetric disruption.
Oh, I don't know, possibly because Idol and Spirit suck? Nether Spirit is basically a "Super Legendary" creature because drawing any beyond your first is terrible for you, since losing a second one to discard or something else has the potential to turn off all your Nether Spirits. Chimeric Idol is a 3/3 for 3 that prevents you from doing anything else that turn, as opposed to, say, the 3/3 for one with Shroud that Threshold uses.

Tarmogoyf might get roasted by a Pox, but he's still about ten million times better as a creature and win condition.

Also, how is it that people only look at the effect of a Pox on the opponent? You do realize that, as sexy as it is to make your opponent lose a third of his or her life, you are also losing a third of your life? That really makes the next Tarmogoyf they play that much more dangerous.

[Maëlig]

Cremate: not the worst suggestion I've ever seen... But maindecking such narrow GY hate doesn't really excite me... Ichorid & LftL are dead meat after sideboarding, though, don't you think? I've had sooo many Ichorid players scoop to a turn 0 Leyline... and Loam players scoop after about 6 or 7 turns, too.

I haven't found it too obstructing against decks not exploiting the GY for now (although I guess it would be bad against aggro). The fact is you can simply cycle it when not needed whenever you get a free mana, which usually happens before you get rid of your entire hand. Plus the two (small) advantages of filling up your GY for stalker and freeing up a nether spirit, which occasionaly helped me. Now, I'm definitely not saying that that should be your ONLY GY hate between MD and SB. On the contrary, this is an attempt to include MORE GY without giving up the good SB slots. And honestly, I don't think LftL-decks and ichorid are a good MU even after SB. Leyline is of course golden, but if you don't draw it you don't stand a chance. Plus the fact that ichorid can vapor chain it, and win before you put it back. By the way, I'm having problems to cast it when I draw it during the game. Don't you think replacing it by tormod's crypt could be an option?


However, with that having been said, a Pox deck can do a lot of damage to all comers if it sees the right hand. I also think that the massive destuctive power of Small/Pox is a good fit for the MBC shell that Pox.deck, let's face it, is.
I have to disagree with you on this one. I do not see pox.deck as a variant of MBC, for the simple reason that this is not a control deck. You're not trying to gain control of the game, but simply to catch your opponent off-hand and try to win while he is still unsettled. It is a tempo deck, its aim being to win in the middle (and not late) game.
This is why, imo, it's perfectly OK to play cards such as Nether Spirit or Chimeric Idol. I won't deny that those are generally worse than what's available and thus pox has little chances in the late-game. But right after a little discard followed by a small/pox, those are the most effective options to try to win before your opponent recovers.

[Michael Keller]

Consistency the way I used it meant being able to persevere through the match without having to go into top-deck mode (after turn two).
I didn't mean consistency in the broader spectrum. Adding a color would help this deck out tremendously.


That really makes the next Tarmogoyf they play that much more dangerous.

Not if you play your own.

[rleader]

I'm not sure why an archetype that's gone 30 pages (and has various versions in the established section) is being referred to as not viable in any way.

Also, FTR, I never said that tutors were what pox needed, just that it's something to think about.


re: Tutors for $200/playset -- Um, Infernals? -- also, why run FOUR tutors? 1 or two should be enough, no?

Infernal isn't any good here. The idea is to fetch silver bullets, cards that demolish opposing decks in *game one*: you're not going to have hellbent by the time you need to play those cards.

Being able to dark rit > beseech > find chalice turn 1, followed by chalice for 1 turn two vs. burn is the idea here. Against more controllish decks you're going to want to use your disruption first, before you tutor, but the idea's the same.

[Michael Keller]

Infernal isn't any good here.

Infernal Tutor isn't as bad as you'd think in this deck. When you're dumping your hand to knock your opponent's hand out and playing threats and discarding things to Pox, your hand size will be reduced dramatically. If you play Chrome Mox and/or Mox Diamond, that would be even better because:

A.) They don't die to Pox.
B.) They help thin out the hand a little.

And it's not like searching for another Dark Ritual is a bad thing.

[rleader]

Infernal Tutor isn't as bad as you'd think in this deck.

No, it's probably worse than I intimated. What are you going to do with two dark rituals besides hardcast Tombstalker?

I think Moxes are a bad idea for the archetype -- and obviously I'm not alone in that opinion. It's not like you want to ditch any of the business spells in your opening hand (since it's the first three turns where you want to saw a leg off of the game table with disruption) and while you only have to worry about *you* killing your own land for the most part, having to worry about losing mana to artifact hate can cause a pretty quick downward spiral.

[Michael Keller]

No, it's probably worse than I intimated. What are you going to do with two dark rituals besides hardcast Tombstalker?

I think Moxes are a bad idea for the archetype -- and obviously I'm not alone in that opinion. It's not like you want to ditch any of the business spells in your opening hand (since it's the first three turns where you want to saw a leg off of the game table with disruption) and while you only have to worry about *you* killing your own land for the most part, having to worry about losing mana to artifact hate can cause a pretty quick downward spiral.

First off: Your opponent's hand should be decimated by the ridiculous amount of discard the deck packs, so you put your opponent in top-deck mode. Don't worry about artifact hate - for Christ's sake if your opponent decides to board in Shattering Spree to combat your utterly devastating Chrome Moxen, that's just fine.

Secondly, Infernal Tutor isn't necessary in this archetype, but it isn't horrible either. Assuming you play black (which, in theory, should leave you with no hand after turn three or four), you should have a problem seeking a win condition other than the Hail Mary draw effect. Don't use it.

Pox is a control card at heart, but it's placed around too much aggro to be really effective. It's important to recognize how it works and what supporting cast to place it around.

That's really why the deck hasn't gone anywhere in years. Pox is too situational to be effective and can put you in a deep hole.

[Aggro_zombies]

Okay, maybe I should explain myself a bit here, since I seem to be the only one in this thread with any experience playing this deck. I used to advocate this deck as ardently as anyone else in this thread...the problem is, then I played it for a long time and realized that "This deck should be theoretically devastating given the right hand" and "Reality" seemed to be mutually exclusive statements. But hey, why believe me? Let's play some theoretical games with Pox against the best deck in the format, Threshold. Also, let's choose the black splash for Threshold since the red splash packs burn, which is obviously bad for you, and the white splash isn't played all that much.

You and your opponent draw seven, and you're on the play. You open with Swamp, Swamp, Ritual, Hymn to Tourach, Thoughtseize, Smallpox, and Nether Spirit. "Wow," you think, "This hand can be really busted." So you play a Swamp, then play the Ritual, then aim a Hymn at your opponent's hand. "Force," says the opponent, removing a Counterbalance. "Well, alright," you say. "I kinda Hymned them." Then you aim a Thoughtseize at them and see: Flooded Strand, Tarmogoyf, Daze, Brainstorm, Ponder. "Oh snap, that's not good." You take the Daze since it'll get in your way next turn, and pass. Your opponent draws a card and plays the Strand, breaks it to get an Underground Sea, and then Thoughtseizes you. ":(" you say, and reveal your hand, which promptly loses its Smallpox. Your opponent (16, 4 cards) passes to you and you untap, draw a Dark Ritual, play your Swamp, Ritual in a Spirit, and pass (20, 0 cards). Your opponent untaps, draws, plays a Ponder, keeps his top three, plays a Tropical Island, and plays a Nimble Mongoose with four cards in his yard (16, 3 cards). "Not so bad," you say. "Than 'goose is only a 1/1 right now, my Spirit can beat it up all day long." Your opponent passes and you untap, draw a Wasteland, and play it. You nuke the Tropical Island and swing for two. "No blocks," says the opponent (14, 3 cards). You pass. Your opponent untaps, draws, plays a Ponder, keeps his top three, plays a Polluted Delta, cracks it to get a Tropical Island (13, 2 cards), and swings for three. "Not as planned D:" you say, and go to 17 (17, 0 cards). "That Mongoose could be a problem here." You untap, draw a Hymn ("Woo!") and play it to take out your opponent's Brainstorm and Tarmogoyf...or do you? He responds with the Brainstorm, shuffles some things around, and casts Daze on your Hymn, returning his Tropical Island. You have two lands in play. Hymn goes off to the graveyard singing about how dazed and confused it's been, and you decide to press your life total advantage by swinging (11, 2 cards). Your opponent untaps, draws, plays a Tropical Island, plays a 3/4 Tarmogoyf, and swings for three (14, 0 cards). "Hmm," you say. "Looks like I need some removal, pronto." You untap, draw a Smallpox, and decide to play it. Nether Spirit duly tromps off to the graveyard, followed by a Swamp (13, 0 cards). Your opponent thinks, then pitches an Underground Sea from his hand, one from play, and a Mongoose. You pass and promptly eat a 4/5 Tarmogoyf to the face (9 life, 0 cards). "Ouchies," you say. "I really need some removal now." You untap, return Spirit, and draw a Swamp. "Damn, not removal," you say. You play the Swamp and pass. Your opponent (10, 1 card) untaps, draws, plays a Top and smashes. You realize you're not going to win the damage race here and chump block in the hope that you can remove 'Goyf soon. He passes. You untap, recur Nether Spirit, and draw a Powder Keg. "Alright, removal!" you think. Powder Keg hits play unopposed and you pass. Your opponent untaps, draws (10, 2 cards), plays an Island, and smashes. You chump. He passes and you untap, recur Nether Spirit, put a counter on Keg, and draw an Urborg. "Well," you say, "it's not removal, but it'll do." You play it and pass. Your opponent untaps, draws (10, 3 cards), smashes unsuccessfully, and passes. "Awesome," you think, and you untap, recur Spirit, charge up Keg, detonate Keg, and draw a Sinkhole. You Sinkhole your opponent's Tropical Island to keep him from playing more men and pass. He uses Top at the end of your turn, then untaps, draws (10, 4 cards), plays an Underground Sea, and plays the Bob that's been lurking in his hand since Keg hit play. "Oh shi-" you say. You untap, draw a Pox, and play it. Uh oh! Force of Will removes a Brainstorm and thwarts your plans (9 life, 0 cards on both sides). You swing and your opponent goes to 7. You pass. He untaps, reveals a Tropical Island, and draws. He plays the Tropical Island and plays a Tarmogoyf (7 life, 0 cards). "Oh Christ," you say, "not this shit again." He passes, you untap, draw a Nether Spirit, and pass. He uses Top at the end of your turn, then untaps, reveals a Daze (5 life) and draws. He plays a Mongoose and smashes (5 life, 1 card). You chump and take your turn, drawing a Wasteland which promptly hits the green source. Your opponent Tops in response and rearranges a few things. You pass. Your opponent untaps, reveals a Brainstorm (4 life), and draws (4 life, 3 cards). Goose, Bob, and Goyf get in there for lethal. "Ugh," you say, and chump block Goyf to go to 4 (4 life, zero cards). You untap, draw a Smallpox, play it and run headlong into the Brainstorm into Force of Will play. You scoop.

Seem bad? Well, maybe I wasn't generous enough to the poor Pox deck. After all, with all that card drawing and countermagic, the Thresh player had a pretty nutty game. Let's go back and replay this match...

You're on the play and open with Swamp, Swamp, Ritual, Hymn, Thoughtseize, Smallpox, and Nether Spirit. You play a Swamp, Ritual out a Hymn (which hits a Tarmogoyf and a Sensei's Divining Top), and play the Thoughtseize to see Trop, Strand, Daze, Brainstorm, Counterbalance. You take the Counterbalance because you can't really deal with it and it'll be bad for you in the long run. You pass (18, 3 cards). Your opponent draws (20, 5 cards), plays the Strand, uses it to get an Underground Sea, and passes. You untap, draw a Sinkhole, and decide to milk some tempo out of the current game. You play a Swamp and Sinkhole the Sea. Your opponent promptly Dazes it. "Sweet," you think, "now I can play that Smallpox without interruption on my next turn." Your opponent draws (19, 5 cards) and plays the Sea again. You untap, draw a Chimeric Idol, and play the Smallpox. Your opponent Brainstorms in response, then sacrifices the Sea, discards a Bob, and loses a life (You: 17, 1 card, Opponent: 18, 3 cards). You pitch your Spirit and pass. Your opponent untaps, draws, plays a Tropical Island, and drops a 3/3 Goose. "Damn it," you say, "I thought I had him off-balance. Now he's got the initiative." He passes (18, 2 cards)...

Starting to look familiar? Even with less interference from your opponent, you're still in an inferior position: 1 land, less life, 1 card, and a 2/2 to a 3/3, one land, and 2 cards. But these games were probably just quirks. Let's look at the typical Threshold matchup:

You're on the play and open with Swamp, Ritual, Ritual, Ritual, Nether Spirit, Chimeric Idol, and Sensei's Divining Top. You play the Swamp, then chain Rituals into a turn one Idol, Spirit, and Top. "Wow, nice hand," remarks the opponent. He plays an Island and passes. You use Top on your upkeep and see Swamp, Hymn, Pox. You leave them like that, draw and play the Swamp, and swing for five. Your opponent draws, plays a Trop, plays a Ponder, shuffles, and passes. You untap, draw the Hymn and play it to take a Goose and a Thoughtseize. You swing for five and pass. Your opponent untaps, draws, plays a Flooded Strand, and passes. You untap, look at your top three and see a Pox, Swamp, Smallpox and reorder it to get the Swamp first. You play it and swing for five. Your opponent casts the EoT Brainstorm, uses the fetchland, and remarks "Maybe running twenty land wasn't such a good idea...". He draws, plays an Island, plays a Bob, and passes. You untap, play Pox, meet no resistance, and swing with Idol for the win.

So really, this deck isn't all that bad. It wins most of the time against Threshold!

EDIT: Okay, those of you with a healthy level of skepticism will probably be saying, "But that was all anecdotal evidence! You can use that to prove anything!" This is of course true, and if we consider the various kinds of rhetorical evidence we would realize that anecdotes are the weakest variety. So let's go to something more logical and empirical. Let's compare threats side by side:

Black Thresh runs Bob (2/1 for two), Tarmogoyf (typically a 3/4 for two or larger) and Mongoose (3/3 for one in most cases). You run Nether Spirit (2/2 for three), and possibly one or more of the following: Mishra's Factory (2/2 for two lands), Tombstalker (5/5 flying for 2 and six other cards), or Chimeric Idol (a 3/3 for three). With the exception of the Demon, all of your threats are less efficient than your opponent's. Furthermore, (again discounting Tombstalker, which by the way doesn't play that well with Nether Spirit), if you drop your opponent to the 10-12 life range off of a Pox, the fastest you will be able to win the game on one guy is four turns (3/3 Idol), whereas the fastest they will be able to win is potentially three (4/5 Tarmogoyf). If they draw any guys in the four turns they have after a Pox, you've stalled because they can now most likely block and kill your threat and then go on the offensive. That's why I was such a big advocate of Phyrexian Totem: if the goal is to kill while they're off-balance, you want to kill as quickly as possible. Attacking five or six times with a 2/2 is not as quickly as possible. Attacking twice or thrice with a 5/5 is.

The thing is, for a deck like Threshold, the effective "off-balance" time is very low because they run a lot of low-cost card filters and a lot of low-cost threats. Combining those two makes for a pretty consistent and pretty speedy recovery period.

[mujadaddy]

Pox is too situational to be effective and can put you in a deep hole.But it's a great pitch candidate for Smallpox! :laugh:

If Pox.dec doesn't get the nuts, things tend to go downhill rapidly.Well, that's true of any deck also... The consistency of Thresh is due to Tarmogoyf and lots of counters... the consistency of Pox is supposed to be from major pains-in-the-ass like Smallpox+Hymn. Sometimes I see an odd mix of cards in my hand (no discard, or all 3 Tombstalkers or something); the rest of the time, though, I really feel like I've got a good chance, even against a handful of counters.

Chimeric Idol is a 3/3 for 3 that prevents you from doing anything else that turnUh, not exactly. You just have to tap your UNTAPPED lands, not "all of them" ... I don't run Chimeric Idol (it would be stupid with Mishra's Factories), but it's not quite as bad as all that... it's no Mongoose, but...

Also, how is it that people only look at the effect of a Pox on the opponent?Because we build our deck to expect it?


Leyline is of course golden, but if you don't draw it you don't stand a chance. Plus the fact that ichorid can vapor chain it, and win before you put it back. By the way, I'm having problems to cast it when I draw it during the game. Don't you think replacing it by tormod's crypt could be an option?Mulligan. You're going to lose if you don't stick it anyway--mulligan until you see it. Ichorid *can* bounce it, but I've never seen them do it (on MWS, anyway... maybe they don't build their SB right, but dropping Leyline in G2 always always always elicits a "G3?" from them.) Crypt--Not really. The winning is done with the FREE, pregame leyline effect. Otherwise, you're packing your sideboard with only one kind of hate.


The idea is to fetch silver bulletsLike what? Your example is Chalice, but to my knowledge it's only in the past page or so that we've even started talking about it...

[Michael Keller]

Okay, maybe I should explain myself a bit here, since I seem to be the only one in this thread with any experience playing this deck. I used to advocate this deck as ardently as anyone else in this thread...the problem is, then I played it for a long time and realized that "This deck should be theoretically devastating given the right hand" and "Reality" seemed to be mutually exclusive statements. But hey, why believe me? Let's play some theoretical games with Pox against the best deck in the format, Threshold. Also, let's choose the black splash for Threshold since the red splash packs burn, which is obviously bad for you, and the white splash isn't played all that much.

You and your opponent draw seven, and you're on the play. You open with Swamp, Swamp, Ritual, Hymn to Tourach, Thoughtseize, Smallpox, and Nether Spirit. "Wow," you think, "This hand can be really busted." So you play a Swamp, then play the Ritual, then aim a Hymn at your opponent's hand. "Force," says the opponent, removing a Counterbalance. "Well, alright," you say. "I kinda Hymned them." Then you aim a Thoughtseize at them and see: Flooded Strand, Tarmogoyf, Daze, Brainstorm, Ponder. "Oh snap, that's not good." You take the Daze since it'll get in your way next turn, and pass. Your opponent draws a card and plays the Strand, breaks it to get an Underground Sea, and then Thoughtseizes you. ":(" you say, and reveal your hand, which promptly loses its Smallpox. Your opponent (16, 4 cards) passes to you and you untap, draw a Dark Ritual, play your Swamp, Ritual in a Spirit, and pass (20, 0 cards). Your opponent untaps, draws, plays a Ponder, keeps his top three, plays a Tropical Island, and plays a Nimble Mongoose with four cards in his yard (16, 3 cards). "Not so bad," you say. "Than 'goose is only a 1/1 right now, my Spirit can beat it up all day long." Your opponent passes and you untap, draw a Wasteland, and play it. You nuke the Tropical Island and swing for two. "No blocks," says the opponent (14, 3 cards). You pass. Your opponent untaps, draws, plays a Ponder, keeps his top three, plays a Polluted Delta, cracks it to get a Tropical Island (13, 2 cards), and swings for three. "Not as planned D:" you say, and go to 17 (17, 0 cards). "That Mongoose could be a problem here." You untap, draw a Hymn ("Woo!") and play it to take out your opponent's Brainstorm and Tarmogoyf...or do you? He responds with the Brainstorm, shuffles some things around, and casts Daze on your Hymn, returning his Tropical Island. You have two lands in play. Hymn goes off to the graveyard singing about how dazed and confused it's been, and you decide to press your life total advantage by swinging (11, 2 cards). Your opponent untaps, draws, plays a Tropical Island, plays a 3/4 Tarmogoyf, and swings for three (14, 0 cards). "Hmm," you say. "Looks like I need some removal, pronto." You untap, draw a Smallpox, and decide to play it. Nether Spirit duly tromps off to the graveyard, followed by a Swamp (13, 0 cards). Your opponent thinks, then pitches an Underground Sea from his hand, one from play, and a Mongoose. You pass and promptly eat a 4/5 Tarmogoyf to the face (9 life, 0 cards). "Ouchies," you say. "I really need some removal now." You untap, return Spirit, and draw a Swamp. "Damn, not removal," you say. You play the Swamp and pass. Your opponent (10, 1 card) untaps, draws, plays a Top and smashes. You realize you're not going to win the damage race here and chump block in the hope that you can remove 'Goyf soon. He passes. You untap, recur Nether Spirit, and draw a Powder Keg. "Alright, removal!" you think. Powder Keg hits play unopposed and you pass. Your opponent untaps, draws (10, 2 cards), plays an Island, and smashes. You chump. He passes and you untap, recur Nether Spirit, put a counter on Keg, and draw an Urborg. "Well," you say, "it's not removal, but it'll do." You play it and pass. Your opponent untaps, draws (10, 3 cards), smashes unsuccessfully, and passes. "Awesome," you think, and you untap, recur Spirit, charge up Keg, detonate Keg, and draw a Sinkhole. You Sinkhole your opponent's Tropical Island to keep him from playing more men and pass. He uses Top at the end of your turn, then untaps, draws (10, 4 cards), plays an Underground Sea, and plays the Bob that's been lurking in his hand since Keg hit play. "Oh shi-" you say. You untap, draw a Pox, and play it. Uh oh! Force of Will removes a Brainstorm and thwarts your plans (9 life, 0 cards on both sides). You swing and your opponent goes to 7. You pass. He untaps, reveals a Tropical Island, and draws. He plays the Tropical Island and plays a Tarmogoyf (7 life, 0 cards). "Oh Christ," you say, "not this shit again." He passes, you untap, draw a Nether Spirit, and pass. He uses Top at the end of your turn, then untaps, reveals a Daze (5 life) and draws. He plays a Mongoose and smashes (5 life, 1 card). You chump and take your turn, drawing a Wasteland which promptly hits the green source. Your opponent Tops in response and rearranges a few things. You pass. Your opponent untaps, reveals a Brainstorm (4 life), and draws (4 life, 3 cards). Goose, Bob, and Goyf get in there for lethal. "Ugh," you say, and chump block Goyf to go to 4 (4 life, zero cards). You untap, draw a Smallpox, play it and run headlong into the Brainstorm into Force of Will play. You scoop.

Seem bad? Well, maybe I wasn't generous enough to the poor Pox deck. After all, with all that card drawing and countermagic, the Thresh player had a pretty nutty game. Let's go back and replay this match...

You're on the play and open with Swamp, Swamp, Ritual, Hymn, Thoughtseize, Smallpox, and Nether Spirit. You play a Swamp, Ritual out a Hymn (which hits a Tarmogoyf and a Sensei's Divining Top), and play the Thoughtseize to see Trop, Strand, Daze, Brainstorm, Counterbalance. You take the Counterbalance because you can't really deal with it and it'll be bad for you in the long run. You pass (18, 3 cards). Your opponent draws (20, 5 cards), plays the Strand, uses it to get an Underground Sea, and passes. You untap, draw a Sinkhole, and decide to milk some tempo out of the current game. You play a Swamp and Sinkhole the Sea. Your opponent promptly Dazes it. "Sweet," you think, "now I can play that Smallpox without interruption on my next turn." Your opponent draws (19, 5 cards) and plays the Sea again. You untap, draw a Chimeric Idol, and play the Smallpox. Your opponent Brainstorms in response, then sacrifices the Sea, discards a Bob, and loses a life (You: 17, 1 card, Opponent: 18, 3 cards). You pitch your Spirit and pass. Your opponent untaps, draws, plays a Tropical Island, and drops a 3/3 Goose. "Damn it," you say, "I thought I had him off-balance. Now he's got the initiative." He passes (18, 2 cards)...

Starting to look familiar? Even with less interference from your opponent, you're still in an inferior position: 1 land, less life, 1 card, and a 2/2 to a 3/3, one land, and 2 cards. But these games were probably just quirks. Let's look at the typical Threshold matchup:

You're on the play and open with Swamp, Ritual, Ritual, Ritual, Nether Spirit, Chimeric Idol, and Sensei's Divining Top. You play the Swamp, then chain Rituals into a turn one Idol, Spirit, and Top. "Wow, nice hand," remarks the opponent. He plays an Island and passes. You use Top on your upkeep and see Swamp, Hymn, Pox. You leave them like that, draw and play the Swamp, and swing for five. Your opponent draws, plays a Trop, plays a Ponder, shuffles, and passes. You untap, draw the Hymn and play it to take a Goose and a Thoughtseize. You swing for five and pass. Your opponent untaps, draws, plays a Flooded Strand, and passes. You untap, look at your top three and see a Pox, Swamp, Smallpox and reorder it to get the Swamp first. You play it and swing for five. Your opponent casts the EoT Brainstorm, uses the fetchland, and remarks "Maybe running twenty land wasn't such a good idea...". He draws, plays an Island, plays a Bob, and passes. You untap, play Pox, meet no resistance, and swing with Idol for the win.

But each person plays their own version of the deck. So you can't really justify how you play something over what someone else would choose. In one of the games, you specified opening with a turn one Hymn when you had a creature in your opening grip. Being on the play, wouldn't it make more sense to drop the creature and then Hymn/Thoughtseize turn two? A Spirit can run over a 1/1 Mongoose. And because you have the advantage, now you can nail Goyf with Thoughtseize. This way if they're going to Swords, they're already down two cards (land and Swords), and then another two cards. the goal is to subversively trick your opponent into playing they're hand when they really don't want to. This helps supplement your discard effects after the fact and puts them in top-deck mode. You don't want to know how many times I've seen a player just go Ritual, Hymn turn one and then burn. It can screw them over, obviously, but it's okay sometimes to wait a turn and establish a threat.

[Maëlig]

Mulligan. You're going to lose if you don't stick it anyway--mulligan until you see it. Ichorid *can* bounce it, but I've never seen them do it (on MWS, anyway... maybe they don't build their SB right, but dropping Leyline in G2 always always always elicits a "G3?" from them.) Crypt--Not really. The winning is done with the FREE, pregame leyline effect. Otherwise, you're packing your sideboard with only one kind of hate.

In that case, would serum powder be such a bad idea? Considering you also really REALLY want to see your plagues against gobs...

[Aggro_zombies]

But each person plays their own version of the deck. So you can't really justify how you play something over what someone else would choose. In one of the games, you specified opening with a turn one Hymn when you had a creature in your opening grip. Being on the play, wouldn't it make more sense to drop the creature and then Hymn/Thoughtseize turn two? A Spirit can run over a 1/1 Mongoose. And because you have the advantage, now you can nail Goyf with Thoughtseize. This way if they're going to Swords, they're already down two cards (land and Swords), and then another two cards. the goal is to subversively trick your opponent into playing they're hand when they really don't want to. This helps supplement your discard effects after the fact and puts them in top-deck mode. You don't want to know how many times I've seen a player just go Ritual, Hymn turn one and then burn. It can screw them over, obviously, but it's okay sometimes to wait a turn and establish a threat.
No, because on turn two they have Force of Will and Daze, which makes your discard less effective since Daze is much better than Force of Will against early-game discard. You'd have to lead off with the Thoughtseize to play around the Daze, which is generally worse than leading off with the Hymn.

EDIT: I'm emphasizing the discard here since you seem to emphasize putting the opponent in topdeck mode.

[rleader]

since I seem to be the only one in this thread with any experience playing this deck.

Unfounded arrogance for the win!

[mujadaddy]

Seem bad?
Your example is almost unreadable.

I sifted through it, though, in an attempt to continue the discussion.

Right off the bat, you Thoughseized for DAZE when there's a Tarmogoyf in his hand? Misplay.

Ritual into Spirit? Probable misplay.

In the middle of that pile, I can't really follow the gamestate -- You detonate the keg at 1 when there's a goyf swinging into you? Misplay.

When you know you're facing a handful of counters, you have to BAIT them out.

Oh, and...
I seem to be the only one in this thread with any experience playing this deck.
...arrogant much, Heather? Speaking for myself, my eyes are wide open as to the inadequacies of this deck--I've been playing MonoBlackPile on and off since 1996. Thresh is probably the most popular tier 1 deck out there right now, and manipulating this one into a position to challenge it is important to me.

[Aggro_zombies]

Unfounded arrogance for the win!
I played this deck for over a year in multiple real-life and online tournaments, not counting countless MWS testing sessions. Cavius the Great I am not.

EDIT:
Right off the bat, you Thoughseized for DAZE when there's a Tarmogoyf in his hand? Misplay.

Ritual into Spirit? Probable misplay.

In the middle of that pile, I can't really follow the gamestate -- You detonate the keg at 1 when there's a goyf swinging into you? Misplay.

When you know you're facing a handful of counters, you have to BAIT them out.
Yes, I know this. First, you hit the Daze because you're holding a Smallpox. If they play the Goyf and have no counter backup, it's going to eat it to your Smallpox, and you get a Nether Spirit the turn after to boot.

You detonate Keg at two. Sorry, it's a bit dense, but you put the second counter on and then sacrifice Keg.

And yes, I know you have to bait things out. I've played a lot against decks packing counters (Landstill of all stripes and Threshold of all stripes) with decks not packing counters and you have to play very conservatively, or at the very least more intelligently than your opponent.



Oh, and...
...arrogant much, Heather? Speaking for myself, my eyes are wide open as to the inadequacies of this deck--I've been playing MonoBlackPile on and off since 1996. Thresh is probably the most popular tier 1 deck out there right now, and manipulating this one into a position to challenge it is important to me.
It was important to me as well. It was also something I couldn't do given the cards available at the time, and I concluded that you'd have to make the deck not Pox to make it better. Forgive me for being a less inventive and dedicated Pox player.

EDIT 2: If I come off as arrogant, it is only because I made the assumption that anyone playing this deck for a long period of time and who was familiar with its style and structure would come to the same conclusions as I did.

[mujadaddy]

In that case, would serum powder be such a bad idea? Considering you also really REALLY want to see your plagues against gobs...

I wouldn't think you would want even to test more than 2 in the deck. It's almost completely useless if cast. "Free" mulligans, though, might be pretty cool. Serum powder used to be all the rage not too long ago, right? Why did they fall out of favor? Math?

[Michael Keller]

Click here for Vaka Pox (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5496) (:b: :w:)

I meant another color besides white. Pox's biggest problem is obtaining card advantage. I was thinking blue or green, perhaps.

Remember, you're knocking cards out of their hand, but you're also depleting yours as well.

[mujadaddy]

I concluded that you'd have to make the deck not Pox to make it better. Forgive me for being a less inventive and dedicated Pox player.

anyone playing this deck for a long period of time and who was familiar with its style and structure would come to the same conclusions as I did.
Well, you're right. I can't disagree with the bolded, above. My conclusions, however, lead me to think more about it, not give up entirely. Some of my conclusions, excluding s33kr1t t3chs:

1. Dedicated land destruction is overrated.
2. Discard does not win games alone.
3. 4 Poxes is too many.
4. If creatures are the win condition, *run more creatures*!

My Pox list looks very different from the standard mono:b: list. I come here to suggest things obliquely and to find out what everyone else who's interested is thinking.

[Aggro_zombies]

Well, you're right. I can't disagree with the bolded, above. My conclusions, however, lead me to think more about it, not give up entirely. Some of my conclusions, excluding s33kr1t t3chs:

1. Dedicated land destruction is overrated.
2. Discard does not win games alone.
3. 4 Poxes is too many.
4. If creatures are the win condition, *run more creatures*!

My Pox list looks very different from the standard mono:b: list. I come here to suggest things obliquely and to find out what everyone else who's interested is thinking.
Well, in that case, I'm interested in seeing it, by PM if you don't want to post it here. Before I stopped playing the deck, I had cut the Sinkholes entirely and switched to just using Wastelands as land destruction (I think you can find one of my last lists somewhere earlier in the thread). If I had to suggest a direction to take this deck in, I'd probably start with the following:

4 Bayou
4 Overgrown Tomb
2 Swamp
2 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Tranquil Thicket
4 Barren Moor

4 Mox Diamond

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Fulminator Mage

3 Life from the Loam
4 Living Wish
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach/Cabal Therapy
4 Smallpox
2 Pox
4 Pernicious Deed

SB:
1 Wasteland
1 Genesis
1 Eternal Witness
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Tombstalker/Grave-Shell Scarab
10 Other Stuff: Krosan Grip, Leyline of the Void, Engineered Plague, etc.

Yes, it looks more like a Rock deck than a Pox deck, and in many ways I'm rather tempted to take it in that direction because The Rock is a very strong deck. In any case, here you use Living Wish to get a toolbox of Unpleasant Things (tm), with Genesis acting as infinite Goyf or Mage recursion and Witness working well with the symmetrical destruction effects you run to act as an unlimited supply of Regrowths. Fulminator Mage + Volrath's Stronghold is a maindeck Waste-lock that can also beat for two. Blowing up your own Goyfs with Deed is unpleasant but really unimportant in the long run because you have so many ways to get them back. I guess you could also run Oracle of Nectars in the sideboard if you're worried about life loss or if you wanted to run more Pox. Kitchen Finks would work too, but I'm not sure about the :g::g: in the cost and Witness has a more desirable effect anyway if you're going to have to bend over backwards for double green mana. I suppose you could drop the Moxen for more discard or disruption or something, but they provide mana fixing and about a third of your lands aren't really lands you want to play anyway.

Alternately, you could go for a Madness-esque build:

20-22 lands

4 Wild Mongrel
4 Basking Rootwalla
3 Arrogant Wurm
2 Genesis
4 Brain Gorgers
2 Grave Scrabbler

4 Thoughtseize
4 Other discard
4 Smallpox
2-3 Pox
4 Survival of the Fittest
1-3 Life from the Loam

Note that both of these approaches stray from the "Pox as a tempo deck" approach. Pox is a hideous tempo deck - if you're looking for tempo, play one of the builds of Threshold that is designed for that. The first of these two builds is more of a control deck that sees Pox as a potential "finisher" or at least as a back-breaking bomb "softener." The second sees Pox as a way to put lots and lots of shit into play at once via Madness, so Pox is a compliment to that strategy (albeit a rather costly one). In either case, and most importantly I think, the deck isn't built around Pox. As I've said previously, Pox is a terrible card, and I'll freely admit that I only put it into these decks because not doing so would make people accuse me of trying to turn the deck into something completely different (which I am trying to do, in a way). Also note that, of these two samples, the first is the best one to try fitting Garruk into, though he plays less with Pernicious Deed because his tokens can't be recurred.

And finally, I realize that both of these lists are rough. I typed them up on the train to school, with no testing or foundation to go off of other than previous experience with similar decks. However, I would say that they make a good departure point for considering what needs to be done to this deck to make it good.

Well, with that I think I'll stop causing drama here. Like I've said, I put this deck down before Future Sight came out because I didn't see much of a future for it. If other people want to continue working on it, more power to you. I'm just not particularly interested in it anymore.

[Clark Kant]

Here is some tourney winning pox lists if you're interested...

http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?type=Pox&format=Legacy

[FluffyPinkBunnies]

why are you all raping pox?

it should be played solid black and maybe the addition of small pox none of this wild mongrel crap

i say use the original list, id swap out 4 diabolic edicts for 3 small pox and another land

[Cait_Sith]

I cut Pox entirely from my Pox lists. Smallpox is excellent on its own and successfully attacks a wide variety of resources.

Also, I found that a splash can be good, but the only one worth it is Green, and then only because Deed is amazing.

Even then, it isn't often worth the havoc you wreak on your mana base.

[Finn]

I cut Pox entirely from my Pox lists.Yep, me too - about three years ago. When I discovered that Pox was the worst card in Pox, I knew it was time to get out of dodge. I wish there was a way to warn unsuspecting newcomers.

[Cait_Sith]

I actually fought to keep Pox in my lists, but I ultimately decided that spot removal would be better.

Hey, it is!

The point of Pox is to attack all their resources at once, but having more control over the effect I find trumps hitting for more stuff.

I actually use Md Extirpate now because of its ability readily run them (my opponents) out of creatures. although not so hot versus the, admittedly rare, dedicated aggro decks, Extirpate can often be the key to simply wiping out.

My Pox deck has partially evolved into running them entirely out of gas. So much so that I have begun to test Damnation MD in some lists.

[mujadaddy]

Damnation MDI've been coming to that conclusion, too.

[Clark Kant]

As I said before, I absolutely would never ever go below 2 Poxes.

I personally think 3 is perfect, and 4 works well too.

The strenght of the deck is not discard (most black decks play the same discard suite).

The strenght is the land destruction (supplemented by the discard). It plays 22+ land destruction spells to ensure you can blow up every land they run in the deck, and consistnetly keep them at 1 land tops.

Pox is land destruction + discard + removal, all while feeding your yard so you can cast Tombstalker four turns earlier.

Yes, you can wait and play it optimally to generate card advantage. But you don't need to.

Taking out both their creature, and their last land and a card too is plenty powerful.

Way more so than playing singleton removal spells like Smother.

[mujadaddy]

Well, the real strength of Pox the card is, in my opinion, the untargeted loss of life. One-third of your opponent's life is a sexy number of which to deprive them.

You and I disagree on the power of land destruction. You emphasize it; I think it's overrated, as all it does vs. bad matchups is extend the game, and generally not in our favor.

[rleader]

Way more so than playing singleton removal spells like Smother.

Which are more than useless in a lot of game 1s.

My general pox deckbuilding strategy goes like this:

7/8 sideboard cards against combo (trinisphere/leyline/chalice or extirpate)
7 sideboard cards against aggro (prison [although arguably it serves in both columns]/damnation or infest/etc.)

And a main deck that strives to have the fewest dead cards against both. Which is why Powder Keg / EE are so good.

I keep reading in various fora that people "take out their poxes against hard match ups." No kidding. But what card helps to make your easy matches so easy? Pox.

Pox kills scrub decks. It kills decks that are ported from EXT. (not uncommon in a lot of metagames; your pox means they never get to cast garruk or deathcloud.) It kills people who mulligan poorly or try to cheat on their land count. It kills people who haven't had practice with their deck. It kills people used to playing other formats. It's a topdeck that deals with the other person's top deck 75% of the time, potentially dealing with their last three topdecks simultaneously if fate favors you. And since it's so easy, evidently, to know when to sideboard it out in favor of a more specific answer when needed, what's not to like about it?

[Clark Kant]

Very well said.

mujadaddy. Of course I don't expect that you would emphasize land destruction in your build. You said that Wastelands and Sinkholes (and the white splash for Vindicate) is out of your budget.

In such a case, it is definatley preferable to emphasize the discard. And that strategy will work well too.

But if you're not willing or able to try the LD route at all as it's meant to be played, I wouldn't knock going that route as you did on multiple occasions so far.

[mujadaddy]

Well, that's not entirely accurate. I said the white splash was not something I'm interested in because of non-basic hate in the format.

And I used to run 4 sinkholes, but I kept wishing they were something else. So my thoughts on LD are this -- it isn't viable as a strategy. Too often, I would pull 2 sinkhole, 2 smallpox hands, do my worst, and then sit there waiting for enough mana/cards to cast Tombstalker... meanwhile, my opponent hits land drops every turn and gets back up to 4, and I've basically spent the first 7 turns doing nothing.

Perhaps a dedicated LD deck can work, but I think it's too threat-starved.

[Mordenkaynen]

May be it's like a spam to write a list that is not connected directly with things that are discussed now, but may be you can find some new ideas here:

Chalice of smallpox

idea base:
// 2 Chrome Mox
// 3 Lotus Petal
// 3 Chalice of the Void

using mechanic:
// 3 Crucible of Worlds
// 2 Mishra's Factory
// 1 Bloodstained Mire
// 1 Polluted Delta
// 1 Quicksand
// 2 Wasteland
// 1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
// 2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
// 7 Swamp

good control cards:
// 3 Unmask
// 4 Sinkhole
// 4 Smallpox
// 4 Hymn to Tourach
// 4 Diabolic Edict
// 2 Umezawa's Jitte
// 2 Damnation

card-need:
// 2 Phyrexian Arena
// 1 Scroll Rack

finishers:
// 3 Chimeric Idol
// 3 Nether Spirit
// + Factory

Then some notes:
1) The deck has to gain life in many match-ups. Jitte is necessary. I don't know other good cards. Some crapy: Rhystic Syphon, Consume Spirit, Soul Spike, (damage) only to a creature: Spinning Darkness, Tendrils of Corruption.
2) factory has some dissinergies:
- with Jitte
- with Idol
3) artifact hate and needle are bad for the deck
4) sometimes manabase shows its instability. LD can be a problem if crucible is not landed.
5) burn is not impossible match

And possible additions:
creatures:
- Epochrasite (also sinergic with spirit)
- Necroplasm
- Braids, Cabal Minion
control:
- Haunting Echoes
- Grave Peril
- Trinisphere
- Smokestack
- Uba Mask
- Engineered Plague

// SB:
- Engineered Plague
- Pithing Needle
- Leyline of the Void
// may be in SB:
- Serum Powder
- Umezawa's Jitte
- Chains of Mephistopheles
- Chalice of the Void
- Powder Keg
- Engineered Explosives
- Wasteland
- Cabal Therapy

[spider900]

My current list is this one:

// Lands
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [A] Swamp
4 [ON] Barren Moor
4 [A] Bayou
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory
4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [OD] Cabal Pit
3 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

// Creatures
2 [MM] Nether Spirit
2 [ON] Undead Gladiator

// Spells
2 [9E] Phyrexian Arena
4 [IA] Pox
4 [US] Duress
4 [AT] Hymn to Tourach
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [A] Sinkhole
4 [TSP] Smallpox
3 [RAV] Life from the Loam

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [ON] Infest
SB: 4 [OD] Innocent Blood

I've been really happy with this list, any suggestions?

I never found 8 Pox being too much. I also really like the high amount of lands and the general game plan of this deck (controlling the early game with discard, then control the board with the Loam Engine).

So far,
Spider

[Mordenkaynen]

@ spider900 :
You run only 4 1cc cards in main and 8 in side. May be chalice is better in main? It disrupts not less than duress, I think. Also it
- crashes burn and some stompies
- improve the way of 'casting smallpox after smallpox'

Well, it is not sinergic with deed; but steel buys you lots of time and advantage.

[RogueBuild]

I just started playing magic again (only on MWS) after quiting the game for a second time a year ago. One of my old pet decks was Pox. I have long been trying to make this deck work with some level of consistancy. Here is my current list:

Land and Almost Lands:
16 Swamps
4 WasteLands
3 Sheltered Valley
4 Mox Diamonds (I find I am happier pitching extra lands over spells)

Creatures and Could Be Creatures:
1 Nether Spirit
2 Chimeric Idol
4 BitterBlossoms
4 Phyrexian Totem

Everything Else:
3 Pox
4 Small Pox
4 SinkHole
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
3 Bottled Cloister

SideBoard:
3 Eng. Plague
4 Pithing Needles
4 Extirpate
4 Powder Kegs

Things I have noticed:

Pox: I started at 4 and often drew more than I wanted. I've bounced between 2 and 3 ever since. I'm still not set on which it should be.

SinkHole and LD in general: I had cut SinkHole down to 2 and cut wastelands out in favor of Mishra's at one point and found it only made it harder for me to disrupt my opponet and gave me 0 noticeable benefit. So they are back in. I am completely unsettled as to how much LD should be in the deck, but I am unsettled about most of the deck.

Sheltered Valley: I loved this card back when it first came out but rare are the deckt hat can truely use it. Pox can not only use it, in my mind it needs it. It helps to counter, or atlest slow downt he suicidal nature of the deck.

Nether Spirit and Idol: Recuring Spirit is great, 2nd Spirit in hand sucks. So I run 2 Idols.

Totems: My most common kill.

BitterBlossoms: My second most common kill. One of the first new cards I saw and included. In fact, seeing this card is what largely lead me to rebuilding Pox. I really think this is what Pox needed. Cheap, flying creature generation that is uneffect by pox, wrath/damnation, red in general, and if cast on turn one can really put the pressure on.

Bottled Cloister: This deck really needs card-draw in a big way. Many of our own spells force us to discard. When you are swinging with a 2/2 or a 3/3 and both players are in topdeck mode; against a large part of the field, Pox is in a lossing battle. It doesnt take much for thresh or goblins to get back on thier feet and thier threats tend to be bigger and faster. The answer is card-draw. I tried Skeletel Scrying and Night's Whisper. Neither were bad (other then I already deal enough damage to myself) they didnt seem to give me enough cards. Rarely did I have enough mana to draw more than 2 with SS. This deck (at lest my build) has no instants so i lose nothing by not having a hand so it becomes a one sided howling mine.

Things I have tried or are considering:

TombStalker: If I ran a true creature in the deck iw ould drop the Nether Spirit. The problem then is the first time you cast Small/Pox you lose it. It doesn't take the hit and keep on ticking. Plus it cant just eat up removal. Not the removal spells in my opponet's hand have real value beyong buying them a turn or two. Plus, with BitterBlossom, I dont think TombStalker is really that important.

Damnation: I think 1 or 2 between the MD and SB might be worth doing. Maybe in place of the 3rd Pox and something else... not sure what...

Extirpate -Vs- LayLine of the Void: I had LLotV in the SB at first. It is great if I get it in my opening hand, but I found that if I had to draw it I often couldnt cast it until it was to late. The problem is it needs to hit the table ASAP. Combo doesnt need a lot of time to go off and Threst hits 7 and then LLotV is meaning less, but to play the deck the way it needs to be played often means not hitting 4 mana until turn 6 or later if at all. By this time the decks that LLotV was good against have already beaten you... you just might not know it yet. Extirpate works with the deck. 1 Black is easy to come by and the deck is packing discard. Killing the first Goyf is easy, it is the 2nd, 3rd and 4th that scare me. With Extirpate they never see play.

I think that covers everything I wanted to say.
Oh, personally, if I was going to splash a 2nd color I would likely just scrap it as a Pox deck build a Bk/__ deck from the ground up

[Clark Kant]

Re: Chalice.

I play 4 Chalice in the sideboard in every pox version. It's a must have against combo, and solid versus burn (the only 1cc card most builds play is Duress), then you have a slim chance of winning by keeping them from getting over one land in play.

Undead Gladiator is a horrid creature here, don't play it.

Tombstalker is insanely strong after disruption. Absolutely play it, atleast as a 3 of. Each small pox or Pox reduces Tombstalkers cc by atleast three.

Like I said, I play 3-4 Pox. A pox, a small pox, a fetchland or two, and Tombstalker is an evasive two turn clock that's out of burn's range.

If they Swords it, hey you gained 5 life.

It's black so it avoids most other removal including Smother, Snuff Out, Vendetta and Ghastly Demise.

It really is not that easy to deal with, and it just wins games outright, and fast.

[RogueBuild]

The problem I had with TombStalker is that the style of play fits too well with the deck and it's history. Pox has always had a problem with dumping it's hand for a quick advantage but once in top-deck mode against almost any deck, it is completely out of gass. TombS helps to empty the tank.

This is what I found happening a lot.

I'm on the draw.
Turn 1: play a swamp and a mox (we will say diamond since this is my prefered mox in this deck, also, the land will go to the GY and not RFG). Now cast HT or depending on what was played by the otherside a Small Pox.
(2 GY, 2 mana on table, 4 cards in hand)

Turn 2:
Play a fetchland and get a swamp (3 cards in gy, 3 mana open, 4 in hand). This time I have to cast SmallPox to kill a land and a creature on the other side. Lose a land, and card. (6 GY, 2 mana in play, 2 cards in hand).

Turn 3:
Draw and cast TombS. If you dont have a 3rd turn land drop your mana is tapped out (hope they dont have a daze) and an empty GY. 2 cards in hand.

If it is countered you have 2 cards left in hand and even if one is a 2nd Tombs you are nowhere near being able to cast it because you GY has 1 card. You are all but out of gas in a deck that commonly does not have card draw.

Now, if it resolves, GREAT!
You have a 5/5 flyer that will die if you play your deck the way it is ment to be played. If you try to play around its large flying butt you will find keeping your opponet under control difficult because you now have to hold onto spells you should be casting as 6-8 cards in the deck would force you to kill it yourself and you need those spells to maintain pressure.

When it dies, and it will die most of the time, where does that leave you? Lets say you make it to turn 5 before it dies and it did 10 damage. You have 3 cards in hand if you haven't cast anything, nothing in your GY and you couldnt cast another Tombs is your life depended on it; which, by-the-way, it does because since you havent been playing the Small/Poxes in your hand the other side of the table now has a few creatures to send your way and you're stuck in topdeck mode doing math to see how many times you need to cast Pox to clear the board and reconsidering not having a Damnation in the deck.

What it really comes down to is this; nearly every tier 1 or 2 deck over the history of magic that ran < or = 4 creatures AND creatures where the primary kill also built the deck to protect them... AKA Blue. (historical examples going way back: Statis w/ Serra, BBS/Big Blue/Draw Go/Counter-Post w/ Rainbow Efreet, Kel. OutPost, Morphling, and PsyaTog in a deck of his own)

Play big creature and keep it alive. Pox runs counter to this idea.

That is why i dont play TombS and continue to play with Nether Spirit and cards that don't die because I played my own spells.

But thats just my 2 cents...

[RogueBuild]

After way to many games with Pox over the past week or so I come to a few conclusions.
1) Pox is too situational a card to be a 3 of (and maybe to be played at all)
2) Damnation is a must.

Here is my current list:

Land and Almost Lands:
16 Swamps
4 WasteLands
2 Sheltered Valley (-1) I didnt really need 3
4 Mox Diamonds (I find I am happier pitching extra lands over spells)

Creatures and Could Be Creatures:
1 Nether Spirit
2 Chimeric Idol
4 BitterBlossoms
4 Phyrexian Totem

Everything Else:
2 Pox (-1) Why cant this card be good enough?
4 Small Pox
3 SinkHole (-1) I needed to drop something for the 3 Damnation
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
3 Bottled Cloister
3 Damnation (+3) to many quick aggro decks causing me trouble.

SideBoard:
3 Eng. Plague
4 Pithing Needles
4 Extirpate
4 Powder Kegs

One thing of note: BitterBlossom has been GREAT!!!
Turn 1 BBlossom followed by a turn 2 SmallPox or SinkHole is my favorite turn1/2 play.

[Clark Kant]

As a rule of thumb, Pox seems like a crappy card when you play cards with cc higher than three in your maindeck since by running Pox, you make them near unplayable.

Otherwise though, Pox usually acts like a Smallpox that can if you are patient be abused so that it behaves like 2 or 3 Smallpox in one.

It's not a bad card. It's a bad card in a build with a curve higher than 3.

I play Ghostly Prison and in my opinion it's a much stronger option against aggro than Damnation. It's easy for your opponents to recover after a Damnation, Prison not so much if you play enough LD.

Sheltered Valley and Bottled Clostier seem to be really cool and useful cards though. Cards that I've honestly never considered, how have they been?

For your build, I highly highly recommend making the following changes...

-3/4 Phyrexian Totem/Chimeric Idol
+3/4 Mishra's Factory

-3/4 Swamp
+3/4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

-3 Phyrexian Totem
+3 Crucible of Worlds

Crucible is so freaking strong with Wasteland, Mox Diamond, Pox effects and Factories.
Factories are so much stronger than Phyrexian Totem in how they interact with Mox Diamond, Pox effects and Crucibles.
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth is an absolute must play in any build with 4 or more colorless land.

If budget isn't a concern, I would also throw in some fetchlands and duals to support Ghostly Prison and Vindicate in place of Damanation.

I still prefer Tombstalker to Nether Spirit (esp if you play fetchlands), but if you plan to run Spirit as your only creature, you can definatley very easily support two.

[RogueBuild]

Sheltered Valley...
...has been great. It gives me a little more freedom when it comes to casting a questionable Pox by allowing my to recover life.

It is not fast life gain by any means, but along with some discard it has given me a fighting chance against Burn. But the best use for it has been countering the ill effects of a BitterBlossom. A turn-1 Sheltered and Mox, cast BBlossom and never lose life to it. If I follow this with a turn-2 SinkHole or SmallPox even better. It is this deck's equivelent to a turn-1 Slith Firewalker, turn-2 Pillage/StoneRain/LD spell...

It is also worth noting that I first saw Sheltered Valley used in Pox deck (Necro powered I think) back in the days following Allience's release and I thought it was a great idea so I followed.


Bottled Cloister...
...was the 4th card draw option I tried (after Arena, Skeletal Scrying and Night's Whisper). The life loss from all 3 and limits of SS and NW caused me to dismiss them. I run B. Cloister in my Mono-Red Ponza deck which, like my Pox, has 0 instants. The drawback of having no hand out-of-turn has basicly no effect. With SmallPox and Pox causing me to discard I rarely have more than 2 cards in hand after turn 4, and I cant cast them out of turn anyway. It also protects me from discard used against me.

Anyone who has play magic long enough knows that if you draw more cards you will tend to win more. More than any other change I have made to the deck, card draw from the B Cloister has give me a big bump in my win percentage.


I think my next move will be to replace a few swamps with Urborg, T of Y. and squeeze in 2 or 3 Cruc. of Worlds. I know I ran Mishra's before and I dont remember why I stopped. It might have been I had too many colorless lands, but this would have been back before Urborg was printed so they might be worth another look.

[Arne]

IMO B. Cloister is too vulnerable. With all sorts of artifact destroy on side, you are sure to lose your hand... And I've been in topdeckmode a lot, but when that occured, the same was true for my opponent.

You're right on the card advantage thing, but pox tends to create cardadvantage through discard.

@Roguebuild,

I'm sorry, but playing a tombstalker on turn 3 is actually kind of dumb... Unless you're playing against a fast deck you have to beat quickly. The way I see it, pox is a control deck. I use SDT and fetch so I never really run out of gas... This gives me a great mid and lategame even though I'm in semi topdeckmode (because of the sensei). I usually draw the spells I need and when I'm sure my opponent has got nothing to get rid of my stalker, I cast it. Usually it takes about 3 swings with my stalker because my opponents also tend to play fetch, FoW and other good cards that come with some lifeloss (my s-pox helps too).:wink:

[RogueBuild]

@ Arne

Cloister:
You can't lose a hand if you dont have a hand. About 80% of the time when I cast a Cloister I have 0-2 cards in hand with one almost always being a land. If I was able to cast the Cloister in the first place then I had 4 mana on the table which is more than enough. The Cloister is what you cast when you have nothing else to do; and therefore nothing to lose if it is destroyed. Sure, you now have to play 2 cards each turn to prevent the risk of losing cards if it is destroyed, but that shouldnt be a problem 90% of the time.

Besides, this is POX! The card forewhich the deck is named had lead to the deaths of its own caster more than any other card in Magic other than Necropotance. If you are willing to gamble on a card like Pox, Cloister shouldnt be a problem since it is easier to play around.

Also, in my deck, the Art/(enchantment) hate tends to be sent at the Totems and BitterBlossoms first since they are often on the table 2 or 3 turns before the Cloister.


TombS(talker):

"playing a tombstalker on turn 3 is actually kind of dumb"
Strangle enough, this was exactly my point. The problem is, the fact you could play TombS on turn 3 and swing for the fences is the only arguement I can see for playing him.

Here is how I see it. It would be TombS -Vs- Totem for about 3 slots and the job of big beatstick to finish the game.

Tombs
+ 5/5 flier
+ Can be cast as soon as turn 3 in most games, swinging on turn 4
+ Not mana dependent
- is a creature in a deck running generally running very very few creatures (= < 4 in most people's decks)
- Dies the instant the controller casts any one of 6-8 spells in thier own deck. This means once it is on the board you must play around him.
- The deck has no way to protect its flying demon of death and does not run enough threats to run the other player out of removal. I do not mean to imply that a 5/5 is easy to kill, but STP, Diabloic E., Vindicate, and Innocent Blood are not exactly uncommon cards. And finding 2 red mana to use 2 burn spells on a 5/5 is not hard to do. In short, he will catch every removal spell in the deck because there is nothing else to cast them on, but they will not board them out beacuse they will be important.

Totem:
+ 5/5 trample
+ is an artifact that can be cast for 3 and produces mana
+ is not a creature (unless active) and therefore does not cause the controller to adjust game play to prevent killing their own creature and can dodge much other removal.
+ Could be attacking on turn 4 most games
- requires mana to activate
- If it takes X damage you need to sac X permenants. This I think is the only issue people really have with the card. Often I just sac extra land, but I also have Fairies I could sac or the BitterBlossom if the life is getting too close.

Pox is a control deck and as such I would rather play the card that I can use to set up my control early on and swing with a few turn later, than the card that does nothing but swing, is easier to remove, and causes me to play around it when it is on the board.


As for my current build...

Land and Almost Lands:
14 Swamps (-2)
2 UrBorg, Tombs of Yawg. (+2)
3 WasteLands (-1) becomes Mishra's Factory
2 Sheltered Valley
2 Mishra's Factories (+2)
4 Mox Diamonds (I find I am happier pitching extra lands over spells)


Creatures and Could Be Creatures:
1 Nether Spirit
2 Chimeric Idol
4 BitterBlossoms
3 Phyrexian Totem (-1) becomes Mishra's Factory

Everything Else:
2 Pox
4 Small Pox
3 SinkHole
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
3 Bottled Cloister
2 Powder Keg (+2)
1 Cru. of Worlds (+1)
Damnation (-3)

SideBoard:
4 Eng. Plague (+1)
4 Pithing Needles
4 Extirpate
2 Powder Kegs
1 Cru of Worlds (+1)

I found myself siding in the Powder Kegs a lot, about 60% of the time, to deal with Goblins, Thresh, Zoo, WW, Fish, ETW tokens, whatever, and decided the 2 mana for the P-Keg was easier to deal with than 4 for Damnation. 3 Damnations became 2 PowderKegs and a Crus. of Worlds

-1 Waste and -1 Totem to make room for 2 Mishra's wasnt a big deal. I tried hard to remember why I didnt run Mishra's before when I first played Pox so many years ago and couldnt remember, but now having Cruc. I can admit I should be running at lest a few. Really Crus went in because I wanted to be able to recur Wasteland and Mishra's went in because I thought I should take advantage of the Cruc.
4 Totems was often 1 too many when I really ony need to draw 1 and with Crus I can affod to drop 1 Wasteland since I can reuse them.

I have only played about 10 games with the new changes, but so for I really like it.

[Arne]

Aaah, a good discussion :tongue:

About Cloister; you're absolutely right. I overlooked the fact that your hand is about empty once you play cloister. Also, with threats like bitterblossom and totem, this isn't the prime target for artifact/enchantment destruction.

the TombS is another story :wink: Maybe I just like to play this deck in a different way. My reason for playing Tombstalker over the totem, is flying. It sets a real clock. A thing the totem doesn't do. The totem has trample, I know... but when you start concentrating on attacking, you give your opponent the chance to regain some of his forces. I don't think your totem is really fond of that. Also, a stp or diabolic e. works against your totem as well as it does against my stalker... that can't be the issue.
It doesn't take me alot of trouble to keep casting spells like i.blood or s-pox... that's because I can sac an animated factory or a nether spirit.

But like I said; maybe I just like to play this deck a different way :D

ps. I don't take risks by playing pox anymore... I removed it a while ago (I play poxless)

[RogueBuild]

I dont mean to imply that Totem is immune to removal, but that not being a creature all the time helps protect him. With TombS if a StP is drawn, it could be cast at will, provided there is a white mana. With Totem I can force the removal to be discarded (thoughtseize, Hymn T., Small/Pox), and when the skies are clear the cowardly 5/5 trampler can come out from under its rock. Short of a Quicken being played, it is nearly impossible to kill a Totem with a Wrath/Damnation (unless I use one to block inwhich case I have bigger problems).

But personal style in play is going to be a big factor in card choice here.
Totem is my big "creature", but the BBlossoms tend to be what does most of the damage. Totem doesnt normally attack until my hand is nearly empty or I have cards in hand with no targets (sinkhole and I have the ony lands in play) and I have extra mana on the field with nothing else to do with it.

Edit: And I cant tell you how many time I have considered dropping the 2 Poxes in place of anyone of a dozen things. But every so often they bail me out of trouble...

[Maëlig]

A ruling question a bit off-topic but still relevant I think.
How exactly does culling scales interact with nether spirit? Apparently you can maintain it by resurecting and immediately sacrificing the spirit each turn, essentialy preventing your opponent to play premanents with a CMC of 3 or less (provided you've already cleared the board).
I was wondering, how exactly does that work? Intuitively, I would say first resolve the spirit triggered effect (if he's in the yard) then the scales, but aren't you supposed to choose your target for scales BEFORE the triggered effect of spirit resolves? Same thing if he's in play, you can sac him to scales but then he won't come back on the same turn, will he?

[Sanguine Voyeur]

You can't reanimate Nether Spirt and kill it with Culling Scales in the same turn. The target of Scales is determined as the ability goes on the stack, at which point Spirit isn't in play.

[Maëlig]

You can't reanimate Nether Spirt and kill it with Culling Scales in the same turn. The target of Scales is determined as the ability goes on the stack, at which point Spirit isn't in play.
That's what I thought, so the "combo" doesn't work?

[Sanguine Voyeur]

No, however if it's already in play from the turn before, you can kill it every other turn to Scales to delay the self destruction.

[Maëlig]

Wait, just to be clear, a spirit destroyed by scales CANNOT come back on the same turn from the GY, since it wasn't there at the beggining of upkeep when its ability would have triggered, am I wrong?
So you would effectively need 2 spirits (1 in the GY and 1 on board) to delay scales' autodestruction indefinitely?

[Sanguine Voyeur]

If you stack it correctly, yes. You'd stack the Culling trigger first, targeting the in play Spirit, then stack the recursion trigger of the other Spirit. The graveyard spirit would come into play and the other would be killed upon resolution of the respective triggers. Next turn you can repeat this.

[rleader]

If you're playing Culling Scales (which I can't believe people are talking up as a good card while cutting Pox as a "bad" one), you should be playing Divining Top, not extra nether spirits.

[Maëlig]

That's true, although it also means that siding in scales against any deck playing SDT (or mongoose, for that matter) is a VERY bad idea. Otherwise, I find it a really good card, taking care of most of the deck's problem, ie enchantments and artefacts. I usually side it in whenever I see two different enchantments/artifacts. Its only problem is its poor tempo, but this is compensated by the rest of the deck.

[RogueBuild]

Just thought I post that my current build has been working great!
A month ago when i first started playing again (only online right now) and I built 4 decks in MWS, Pox was only winning between 20-30%. Now I'm winning up around 80-90%. Granted; this is on MWS where the quality of player can can be anything from "what is mana?" to the pro-tour player just looking to use his new combo deck and make some 10 year old hate the game and quite, but for a deck I was ready to abondon just a few weeks ago I'm really happy with the improvements.

My current build:

Land and Almost Lands:
14 Swamps
2 UrBorg, Tombs of Yawg.
3 WasteLands
2 Sheltered Valley
2 Mishra's Factories
4 Mox Diamonds

Creatures and Could Be Creatures:
1 Nether Spirit
2 Chimeric Idol
4 BitterBlossoms
3 Phyrexian Totem

Everything Else:
2 Pox
4 Small Pox
3 SinkHole
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
3 Bottled Cloister
2 Powder Keg
1 Cru. of Worlds

SideBoard:
4 Eng. Plague
4 Pithing Needles
4 Extirpate
2 Powder Kegs
1 Cru of Worlds

BitterBlossoms still do the bulk of the killing, often 12-17 points a game with Totems doing most of the remaining damage.

The toughest match up I have found has been Goblins. The ability to explode from 1 to 3 to 8 creatures over just a turn or 2 make it nearly impossible to keep up without a true board sweeper like Wrath/Damnation. Powder Kegs help but they are slower and can be played around.

Thresh I have not had any consistant problems with, largely I would guess is due to the fairly low creature count and Goyf can be chump blocked all day with a BBlossom or Nether Spirit.

And Staxs, which i once dreaded playing, is now an even fight.


I still question if I should be running the 2 Pox in the deck. They are often the first things sided out, but there are games that I would clearly have lost without them.

Thats my update. The deck has been doing well.

[Clark Kant]

I haven't had the chance to mess arond with this deck at all. But I'm very intrigued by prospect of playing...

Nether Spirit + Bitterblossom + Contamination.

It would let you cut land destruction for...

tutors + more discard/disruption + removal (damnation) + more threats

Obviously the entire deck would be chagned. But it would be very strong against nonblack decks.

[Arne]

When you choose to play contamination, focus on it entirely. Don't put in in your deck as an alternative lock. I've tried to play it but it didn't work for me all to well.

[Clark Kant]

Yeah, that was what I was getting at.

It would be a black control deck.

Tons of discard.

Atleast 4 tutors, maybe more.

Nether Spirit + Bitterblossom.

But basically, you end up with a deck built around a two card combo. At that point, why not just play Painter's Servant.

[Top Deck]

Yeah, that was what I was getting at.

It would be a black control deck.

Tons of discard.

Atleast 4 tutors, maybe more.

Nether Spirit + Bitterblossom.

But basically, you end up with a deck built around a two card combo. At that point, why not just play Painter's Servant.

This seems like the more reliable build. I was playing a monoblack version with this route. Too bad you lose the power to vindicate stuff. I got rid of my vindicates during extended when they were going for like $30 a pop.

now i need to pick them up again.

[Top Deck]

Current decklist:

Utility
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Phyrexian Totem

Threats
4 Bitterblossom
1 Nether Spirit
3 Chimeric Idol

Disruption
2 Deathcloud
2 Engineered Plague
4 Sinkhole
4 Duress
4 Pox
4 Smallpox
4 Hymn to Tourach

Mana
4 Dark Ritual
3 Sheltered Valley
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
18 Swamp

[Clark Kant]

I can't possibly believe that you can support a deck with 4 Smallpox, 4 Poxes and 2 Deathclouds off of just 22 land!!!

25 is the minimum unless you're playing Flagstones IMO and that's without the death clouds.

I would cut Death Cloud and Engineered Plague for Rancid Earth or Thoughtseize or something.

Otherwise, the build looks cool.

Sample Contamination Deck

Utility
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Beseech the Queen

Threats
4 Bitterblossom
3 Nether Spirit

Disruption
4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Contamination
4 Damnation

Mana
4 Dark Ritual
4 Wasteland
3 Sheltered Valley
2 Mishra's Factory
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
5 Swamp

IMO, Contamination doest work very well, and is an autoloss against Black decks.

[Top Deck]

well that's why i run dark rituals and 1 totem. to me death cloud is the other small pox. :D i would prefer 6 of those if i could. i usually death cloud for 1 or i death cloud for a bunch as a finisher.

also remember i am running sheltered valley and thus i can't run wastelands because i dont want that many non-black lands. also clark i looked at your deck list. i like but the playstyle is definitely different. i used to run damnations; however, the pox effects are better. most of the time death cloud is your damnation. ie a death cloud for say 2 is as good if not better than damnation since you also nurter their hand and their lands.

bitterblossom, idol, and spirit carry you to victory. i love the bitterblossom because it is evasive attackers where as idol, spirit, and totem can only swing when the coast is clear.


I can't possibly believe that you can support a deck with 4 Smallpox, 4 Poxes and 2 Deathclouds off of just 22 land!!!

25 is the minimum unless you're playing Flagstones IMO and that's without the death clouds.

I would cut Death Cloud and Engineered Plague for Rancid Earth or Thoughtseize or something.

Otherwise, the build looks cool.

[rleader]

I can't possibly believe

Stop arguing with him, you know it's not going to go anywhere.

This is the only thread on the whole board where deck lists keep getting worse and worse as it goes on.

I mean, seriously, look at them, it's like they're worried about their ELVES matchup and not TES.

[RogueBuild]

Top Deck

A few things I would change.

Replace Dark Rit. with Moxes (Diamonds or Chrome, whichever you prefer). I think I counted 22 cards that cost 1 or 2 in the deck, with Mox you can cast any of your 2 drops on turn 1 without any burn and you have the extra mana for the next turn and there after. A turn 1 BitterBlossom is my favorite play, but there is no reason to take the extra pain of burn when you really dont need to.

I tried DeathCloud for a little while and found that even just to cast it as a SmallPox it was to expensive. 4 Mana for a SmallPox is to much. 99.99% of the time I would have been better off with a Damnation for the same cost.

I would run some card draw of the top. I use Bottled Cloister, but you could try out Night's Whisper, Skel. Scrying, Ph. Arena or something else.

If I had to say which of those 3 things would make the largest difference in your deck's playability it would be the card draw.

[Clark Kant]

I still think that the lists posted in the opening post are pretty close to optimal if you're sticking with the monoblack build.

Mox is certainly interesting. But Honestly, I see a lot more potential in Chrome Mox than in Mox Diamond.

With all the pox effects, it seems like you can never have too many lands in your opening hand. Chrome Mox's card disadvantage can be compensated for with Pox.

[RogueBuild]

"I still think that the lists posted in the opening post are pretty close to optimal if you're sticking with the monoblack build."

They might be, but those posts are 2 years old. BitterBlossom wasnt even printed yet. While I would say almost anything in the deck could be argued for or against (and I did say almost anything), if BBlossom was in print 2 years ago I think it would have been seen as an auto-include.

Chrom vs Diamond...
I've used both. Maybe it is because I have 4 diamonds and 3 totems that I am not as worried about needing land. Combined with not really wanting more than 3 anyway I just tend to find myself more willing to pitch a land on turn 1 or 2 for a diamond, than to pitch a spell for a chrome.
Besides, you helped talk me into running C.Worlds, now I have even less fear of being short of land.

[rleader]

if BBlossom was in print 2 years ago I think it would have been seen as an auto-include.

I don't think so. No one has established why they think bitterblossom is a great card for pox: It doesn't seem like a relevant card. Match ups that you win with it, you would have won anyways (and probably a few turns faster) with a classic pox list, and matchups where you'd get smashed in the face for using it (burn, tendrils, etc.), your deck doesn't have *any* answers for them, either.

Seriously, 4 powderkegs main, 4 chalice of the void in the board, seems like a necessity in the modern metagame. Meanwhile, you're spending how many mana on ... bottled cloister? (4 mana spells don't play nice with sheltered valley.) If you were playing grafted skullcap with ensnaring bridge, I could understand it.

[RogueBuild]

RLeader, I'm starting to think you have no idea what you are talking about with Pox.
BitterBlossom is the only threat anyone mentioned that can:
1) be played on turn,
2) kill all by itself on turn 8,
3) does not require additional mana to power,
4) can not simply be blocked,
5) leaves creature removal all but useless,
6) and plays well with the rest of the cards in your own deck.

Every other commonly used kill-con for Pox fails at lest of of the above. BBlossom allows you to cast your threat, as early as turn 1, and then use your resources to cast disruption. Things like NetherSpirit, Mishra's, TombS, and Totems can come online a few turns later if needed, but BBlossom has already applied the pressure, every other threat is often just clean-up.

SValley and BCloister work fine together. How? Who says I need 4 land in play to cast it? I run 23 land but I also run 7 mana producing arts. I often will stop playing land when I hit 3 and use it as the pitch cards for Small/Pox.
If I do have 4 lands in play it is likely I am about to lose one to a Small/Pox, sac a wasteland, or dropping an extra Mishra's for finish the game.


The one thing I do argee with is the 4 PowderKegs. I have often thought about moving the 3rd and 4th into the maindeck. CotV screws with me more than i would like. I have enough disruption that I can ignore using them.

[rleader]

RLeader, I'm starting to think you have no idea what you are talking about with Pox.

You don't have leyline of the void in your sideboard; that kinda makes one doubt the strength of your metagame and the conclusions you make about the "winningness" of bitterblossom.

Show up at a tourney where you play against TES (with Ill Gotten Gains tech)/Ichorid/4-color Landstill (yeah, bitterblossom is *awesome* vs someone who can play Pernicious Deed and recur engineered explosives! And they'll find them 50x faster than you'll find your pithing needles!).

Play against those decks, one after the next, believe me, you won't be bragging about how no one can block your pixie army that kills on turn 8!

[RogueBuild]

LeyLine of the Void! How could I forget to include it!?!?! It is basicly an auto win against everything! Of course, Pox is a deck that doesnt like to mul. so I better get it in my opening hand or I will spend an entire turn hard casting a card that maybe hitting play too late to be effective.

I don't recall ever bragging about my "pixie army", just pointing out that it plays well with the rest of the deck. That it has some advantages over other commonly played cards.

I will admit my local T1.5 player pool is slim. Thankfully I can play online. Not a lot of anything in Austin other then T2 and draft but if you would like to show me how weak my deck is let me know. I would love to see how good the the great rleader really is.
Message me and let me know when you would like to teach me my lesson.

[rleader]

Hey, you're the one who turned this into a personal argument; I'm not sure why you're acting aggrieved.

The idea of Leyline isn't to desperately mulligan into it: if you don't have it in your opening hand, you obviously have a hand filled with other cards in your deck like extirpate and/or chalice of the void and/or powderkeg. I do like the new Faery Macabre, too, though, as it works fairly well under an opponent's Ill Gotten Gains. Multiple options are necessary.

The point, is, is that you need two extirpates, not one, to stop Ichorid, as they can simply beat you down with their namesake card if they can't combo out. Decks like TES have so many solutions now with their wishboards (and they can wish back cards you extirpate) that you can't necessarily stop them with just one kind defense.

I think all pox decks need powderkeg maindeck (and maybe a few extirpates) as well as, from the board, to be able to chalice for zero/one and play a trinisphere as fast as possible.

Combo decks today are fairly resistant to both discard and land destruction.

If a control deck is going to use LD cards, they really have to commit. 3 sinkholes / 3 wastelands / 2 poxes aren't really going to cut it, IMO.

Pox as a deck is really just a budget and more inconsistant version of 4 color landstill (though pox has the advantage of playing games much faster, win or lose, so you don't have to worry about tiebreakers so much). They play pretty much the same in a lot of ways.

I think Mox Diamond isn't quite a combo with Bitter Blossom because other control decks will often be using Pernicious Deed to kill the latter. That doesn't mean Mox Diamond is a horrible choice over dark ritual, only that your particular deck gives other control decks a serious route to card advantage with their own removal. Unless a pox player can waste-lock a Landstill deck early on in the game (always a good time), they have all the momentum: odds are, they'll find their extirpates before you will, and they often have more recursion for their own stuff like engineered explosives.

[Clark Kant]

Bitterblossom is a great card.

But Tombstalker is still by far the best threat Pox has imho.

It's surprisingly resilient, even more so than Bitterblossom.

Here's a list of cards it ignores that Goyf and in many cases BB succumbs to.

Spell Snare,
Engineered Explosives,
Regenerators
Deed,
Chalice at 2,
Counterbalance + Top,
Shackles,
Shriekmaw
Powder Keg,
The 3cc Control Magic for creatures with 2cc or less,
Smother,
Snuff Out,
Ghastly Demise,
most black based removal

Add to this the fact that Tombstalker is a three turn clock after a Pox, and doesn't cost you life like BB does, and it's not really a competition.

[Top Deck]

Bitterblossom is a great card.

But Tombstalker is still by far the best threat Pox has imho.

It's surprisingly resilient, even more so than Bitterblossom.

Here's a list of cards it ignores that Goyf and in many cases BB succumbs to.

Spell Snare,
Engineered Explosives,
Regenerators
Deed,
Chalice at 2,
Counterbalance + Top,
Shackles,
Shriekmaw
Powder Keg,
The 3cc Control Magic for creatures with 2cc or less,
Smother,
Snuff Out,
Ghastly Demise,
most black based removal

Add to this the fact that Tombstalker is a three turn clock after a Pox, and doesn't cost you life like BB does, and it's not really a competition.

stalker isn't too shaby, but i have been replacing it more with bitterblossom and grafted wargear.

the thing is stalker is vulnerable to spot removal like stp where as bitterblossom tokens aren't that weak to them. sure you can kill one off but you can't keep killing them. with wargear i think bitterblossom takes it over stalker in my opinion.

also i have been using the rack main board and going with a disruption base now of:

4 duress (probably should be thoughtseize)
4 hymn
4 small pox
4 pox
4 sinkhole

my threats now are:
4 bitterblossom
1 nether spirit
4 the rack
4 grafted wargear


EDIT: one more thing to mention about stalker is. after you cast stalker you tend NOT to want to cast small pox or pox, but with bitterblossom in play you really dont care.

[rleader]

EDIT: one more thing to mention about stalker is. after you cast stalker you tend NOT to want to cast small pox or pox, but with bitterblossom in play you really dont care.

If you're playing full mishra's factories and two nether spirits, often you can get away with it. Also, it's generally not that hard to keep decks that use swords of plowshares off of white mana these days: when they get to sacrifice their own lands, white is usually the first to go as they need green for their win condition and believe that blue will help them find white again.

I agree that faeries and wargear are neat, but then you're creating a two card combo (mishra's factory + wargear, not a combo) for the deck, where the wargear is a useless draw on its own, without a particular other card. IMO that's a bit dangerous.

[Top Deck]

If you're playing full mishra's factories and two nether spirits, often you can get away with it. Also, it's generally not that hard to keep decks that use swords of plowshares off of white mana these days: when they get to sacrifice their own lands, white is usually the first to go as they need green for their win condition and believe that blue will help them find white again.

I agree that faeries and wargear are neat, but then you're creating a two card combo (mishra's factory + wargear, not a combo) for the deck, where the wargear is a useless draw on its own, without a particular other card. IMO that's a bit dangerous.

i can see where you are coming from. you seem to want diversity; however, i think most of the damage will be done with the rack + our massive amounts of card denial/discard. it is so strong that i might want to add that new discard spell from evetide (raven's crime?). mishra and other guys are ground dudes. tombstalker's biggest asset is that it has flying. bitterblossom dudes have flying and keep coming out EVERY turn which is fantastic with the wargear.

you dont care if you pox/smallpox with bitterblossom guys in play since you'll just make more. mishra factories are weak to wasteland (ran in nearly every deck these days). but our monoblack version doesn't really have wasteland targets aside from sheltered valley, and losing the valley is mediocre at best since it is there to help against bitterblossom.

[rleader]

mishra factories are weak to wasteland (ran in nearly every deck these days).

OUR WASTELANDs > their wastelands ;)

Seriously, opponents throwing away their own lands are just asking for trouble. If you win game one, usually, they just keep their wastelands to sacrifice to pox effects in order to prevent color screw.

I'm a big fan of waste-lock though so I run with three crucibles unless I'm expecting matchups that would render it irrelevant; thus I've activated mishra's tons of times before poxing.

I play monoblack too (4 waste/3 mishra/4 urborg) and if I were going to toss in a funny land, I'd probably take maze of ith or tabernacle (ok, that's in an alternate universe for me personally) over valley. I played with it two years ago and it was nice but never game changing for me: never really changed whether I won or lost.

[Clark Kant]

Well said rleader.


4 bitterblossom
1 nether spirit
4 the rack
4 grafted wargear

I really can't see this threat base being very good. Bitterblossom and Nether Spirit are both good.

But The Rack as has been covered before just isn't that strong. If you waste their lands, they will be holding a fistful of cards being able to play only one a turn at best. The Rack does nothing there.

Grafted Wargear just doesn't belong. The only card it works well with is Bitterblossom, if you don't have a bitterblossom or can't keep it in play, then it's worthless.

If you're willing to play something like Wargear that is useless without the other piece. Why not just play Painter's Servant and Grindstone? You could even play 4 Beseech. I actually think that would be a fairly strong to go that route as well.

You should absolutely be playing. 3-4 Tombstalker, 2-3 Crucible, 3 Mishra's Factory and 4 Wasteland.

[Top Deck]

OUR WASTELANDs > their wastelands ;)

Seriously, opponents throwing away their own lands are just asking for trouble. If you win game one, usually, they just keep their wastelands to sacrifice to pox effects in order to prevent color screw.

I'm a big fan of waste-lock though so I run with three crucibles unless I'm expecting matchups that would render it irrelevant; thus I've activated mishra's tons of times before poxing.

I play monoblack too (4 waste/3 mishra/4 urborg) and if I were going to toss in a funny land, I'd probably take maze of ith or tabernacle (ok, that's in an alternate universe for me personally) over valley. I played with it two years ago and it was nice but never game changing for me: never really changed whether I won or lost.

two years ago was before they invented bitterblossom. the card is fantastic in the deck. it makes dudes with evasion every turn. with valley, it costs no life and without valley it costs nothing.

no i disagree our wastelands are greater than their's. i had wasteland in the deck before and without a crucible lock it is a waste of time. you aren't going to stop vial with it anyhow right?

@clark. go ahead and play stalker.... he just seems very subpar from my experiences in the deck. if you dont like wargear why not try delirium skeins. that card is so strong with the rack.

anyhow i think we are talking about different approaches to lock down the opponent. if you think we can focus in on land denial with some card disruption then sure wasteland lock and what not could be good, but focusing on LD is just a bad game plan in pox in my opinion.

i think it is better to focus in on general disruption, and hit the hand. for instance if you cast small pox you get a card + a land which is 2 cards and if you get the critter then great another card.

overall the deck seems more about card advantage and taking everyone down to zero cards. this is where the rack shines. same thing with bitterblossom + wargear.

also bitterblossom seems to be very good with tech cards like gate to phyrexia.

[YuanTi]

no i disagree our wastelands are greater than their's. i had wasteland in the deck before and without a crucible lock it is a waste of time. you aren't going to stop vial with it anyhow right?

When you run Sinkhole, Pox and Smallpox, your wastelands are most definitely better than theirs. Unless you've been cutting those too?


@clark. go ahead and play stalker.... he just seems very subpar from my experiences in the deck. if you dont like wargear why not try delirium skeins. that card is so strong with the rack.

The Rack is 3 damage a turn max, presuming they discard a lot, and play no card draw. Tombstalker is brilliant as a 5/5 Flier for 2. Nether Spirit is even better, and should definitely be run 4 of.


anyhow i think we are talking about different approaches to lock down the opponent. if you think we can focus in on land denial with some card disruption then sure wasteland lock and what not could be good, but focusing on LD is just a bad game plan in pox in my opinion.

So, you suggest that Pox should do what it's been doing, but that that plan is wrong?


overall the deck seems more about card advantage and taking everyone down to zero cards. this is where the rack shines. same thing with bitterblossom + wargear.

None of these cards have any coherency with Pox, or the other important cards. They're just random threats. Sure, they might have no cards in hand, but when you blow a Pox, you definitely want Nether Spirit in hand, not Bitterblossom.

[rleader]

What I can't understand about this, is that if all the bitterblossom acolytes aren't worried about any of the tier 1 combo or control decks and are fixated on decks like goblins ("why bother with wasteland when aether vial exists!"), filling their sideboards with cards like engineered plague:

Why aren't they worried about other people in their metagame using engineered plague, too?

Because that certainly impacts the value of bitterblossom.

[Top Deck]

When you run Sinkhole, Pox and Smallpox, your wastelands are most definitely better than theirs. Unless you've been cutting those too?

The Rack is 3 damage a turn max, presuming they discard a lot, and play no card draw. Tombstalker is brilliant as a 5/5 Flier for 2. Nether Spirit is even better, and should definitely be run 4 of.

So, you suggest that Pox should do what it's been doing, but that that plan is wrong?

None of these cards have any coherency with Pox, or the other important cards. They're just random threats. Sure, they might have no cards in hand, but when you blow a Pox, you definitely want Nether Spirit in hand, not Bitterblossom.

i take it you dont play much pox at all yuan ti. the rack is a turn 1 drop. you can't run 4 nether spirits in the deck!
lol
you realize that nether spirit can only trigger if it is the ONLY creature in your yard? that means if you ever get 2 or more in the yard then none of them trigger?

spirit has always been a 1-3 of ... 3 is pushing it. tombstalker is a card which rips your whole yard away and then they stp it and you are down a ton of cards ;-). to say that casting another stalker would be difficult at that point is a HUGE understatement.

another thing is a lot of ppl also play ensnaring bridge in pox... and you wont ever get the stalker going there.

also pox isn't about LD. LD is a secondary function. pox is mostly a critter/hand disruption deck.

and yes i dont run wastelands in the monoblack version of the deck.

[rleader]

also pox isn't about LD. LD is a secondary function.

It's really insulting to say that people "don't play pox" just because you disagree with them. Argue against their points all you want, but enough with the ad homs. Rogue Build did that with me yesterday, as if I'm not pox enough or something for arguing against his build that scarcely even plays pox! Hell, Kant and I are the only ones arguing for the playing of a full four poxes; go back a few pages and see that.

If you're not playing a LD centric route, why bother with any of these symmetrical spells at all? symmetrical spells suck! Just play a coffers deck and win that way. It's clear that a lot of you want to play another deck anyway so the real question is: why the hell don't you?

I certainly can't reccommend playing a full four netherspirits (without spinning darkness or etc., but that lost its utility since the printing of goyf), but I think the point about The Rack stands. None of your decks have enough discard to hurt another control deck (like say Land Still) to the point where they'd take damage under the rack. IF you're going that way, symmetrical discard in the form of Bottomless Pitt, Necrogen Mists etc., might be the way to go. (deck example here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9644 )


tombstalker is a card which rips your whole yard away and then they stp it and you are down a ton of cards ;-).

Down a ton of cards from a 1 for 1 trade (with the benefit of gaining five life)? Does not compute. Pox doesn't otherwise use its graveyard as a resource so you're not really down anything. Between discard and LD keeping someone off white, StP isn't the biggest issue in the world.

OTOH, losing a bitter blossom, 4 tokens that cost you four life, a mox diamond, a grafted wargear, and a Rack to an activated Pernicious Deed is most certainly a "bad trade."

[Top Deck]

It's really insulting to say that people "don't play pox" just because you disagree with them. Argue against their points all you want, but enough with the ad homs. Rogue Build did that with me yesterday, as if I'm not pox enough or something for arguing against his build that scarcely even plays pox! Hell, Kant and I are the only ones arguing for the playing of a full four poxes; go back a few pages and see that.

If you're not playing a LD centric route, why bother with any of these symmetrical spells at all? symmetrical spells suck! Just play a coffers deck and win that way. It's clear that a lot of you want to play another deck anyway so the real question is: why the hell don't you?

I certainly can't reccommend playing a full four netherspirits (without spinning darkness or etc., but that lost its utility since the printing of goyf), but I think the point about The Rack stands. None of your decks have enough discard to hurt another control deck (like say Land Still) to the point where they'd take damage under the rack. IF you're going that way, symmetrical discard in the form of Bottomless Pitt, Necrogen Mists etc., might be the way to go. (deck example here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9644 )

Down a ton of cards from a 1 for 1 trade (with the benefit of gaining five life)? Does not compute. Pox doesn't otherwise use its graveyard as a resource so you're not really down anything. Between discard and LD keeping someone off white, StP isn't the biggest issue in the world.

OTOH, losing a bitter blossom, 4 tokens that cost you four life, a mox diamond, a grafted wargear, and a Rack to an activated Pernicious Deed is most certainly a "bad trade."

sorry but from the way he was commenting on how some cards worked and lacked understanding of the basic play sequence of how pox tends to run. adding 4 nether spirits in the deck gave me the impression that yuan ti isn't a pox player or advocate. of course, i have known him from mtgsalvation also, and pox is an archetype that yuan ti heavily frowns upon.

i have always been playing 4 poxes in the monoblack version. the only time i havent was when i was playing black/white pox with vindicates. pox is your main source of damage at least initially. you are almost counting on it to do about 12 points of damage (if you cast two of them), and you are looking at ways to nickel and dime the last 8 points of damage.

hence nether spirit seems + idols seem pretty good when they can finish you in two swings.

the argument i am making is more or less about HOW you are going to nickel and dime them to death. the idea of say the rack is that it is online immediately the turn you cast it. the rack by itself nearly beats pox's traditional worst matchup - monored burn.

since they can't wait to empty their hand and they love it when you cast pox itself, you want to setup racks and focus in on discarding their hands.

but i do agree that a deed definitely cleans out your board and decks like landstill which can run them is bad news for pox. the thing is in the landstill matchup stalker isn't much better. stalkers are pretty good but they tend to box you in more than open up possibilities and game play. once you toss out a stalker you are pretty much committed to trying to win with it in 3 swings.

if you are going the stalker route, i agree LD is probably the better suit (unless you are facing something like angel stompy), and in the mirror matchup stalker is going to look at a lot better than bitterblossom when faced against an engineered plague. of course one could say the same thing, if you are looking down an ensnaring bridge, stalker isn't too good.

[YuanTi]

sorry but from the way he was commenting on how some cards worked and lacked understanding of the basic play sequence of how pox tends to run. adding 4 nether spirits in the deck gave me the impression that yuan ti isn't a pox player or advocate. of course, i have known him from mtgsalvation also, and pox is an archetype that yuan ti heavily frowns upon.

Considering that I played it for over a year, I'm completely unsure of where you got that idea from.

[Top Deck]

Considering that I played it for over a year, I'm completely unsure of where you got that idea from.

when was this? i thought you were a thres player. so you actually ran it in a tourney for a year?

also if you do a forum search for the name YuanTi and say pox on mtgsalvation you come up with 0 results....

[RogueBuild]

Wow, I ignore the boards for a few days and suddenly people start posting on Pox.

Rleader,
My commonets toward you were a result of you saying...

"This is the only thread on the whole board where deck lists keep getting worse and worse as it goes on."

That is a rather heavy stone being thrown, so I threw one back.
However, I never said you SHOULDN'T play Pox, I questioned if you DID play Pox.

You are still welcome to try teaching me a thing or two.

BBlossom -Vs- TombS.
Top Deck and I seem to be on the same page here. We would rather have a creature generating enchantment over a sigle 5/5 flier. I have covered why a few pages back.
On the upside, if you are playing TombS you can removed extra Nether Spirits from your graveyard so you might as well run 4.

Kant likes having his giant 5/5 flier and 3 or 4 Nether Spirits? If it has been working for him, who am I to argue.

I think this is more of a personal style thing that anything else.

I will say that in the past week I have adjusted my Sideboard to include 3 CotV. My batting average against certain combo decks is right around 500 and I'm looking to improve.

My current build:

Land and Almost Lands:
14 Swamps
2 UrBorg, Tombs of Yawg.
3 WasteLands
2 Sheltered Valley
2 Mishra's Factories
4 Mox Diamonds

Creatures and Could Be Creatures:
1 Nether Spirit
2 Chimeric Idol
4 BitterBlossoms
3 Phyrexian Totem

Everything Else:
2 Pox
4 Small Pox
3 SinkHole
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
3 Bottled Cloister
2 Powder Keg
1 Cru. of Worlds

SideBoard:
2 Eng. Plague (-2)
3 Pithing Needles (-1)
3 Chalice of the Void (+3)
4 Extirpate
2 Powder Kegs
1 Crus. of Worlds

Yes, I am still running only 2 Pox and I know to many of you that is a crime punishable by death, but I find 4 to be overkill. For a long time Goblins was giving me a lot of problems so Eng Plagues were very important to me, but I wasnt running 4 PowderKegs at the time. I'm hoping that 2 along with 4 powderKegs will be enough so i can better my odds against combo with CotV (wich isnt useless against Goblins either).

[Clark Kant]

Like I said many times already. Bitterblossom is good. I just think Tombstalker is better. But there is absolutely no reason that one can't play both. I would certainly play it over Chimeric Idol.

And cutting a pox or two is fine. I personally went down to 3 Pox in Vodka Pox. What isn't okay is to cut down to 3 Sinkhole. Please run the 4th, for your own deck's sake.

I'm still not 100% sold on Bottled Clostier and see no justification for running only 2 Urborg in a built with 7 coloerless lands.

But the build looks good otherwise.

[Fons]

This is what I'm going to test
Poor Pox

4 Smallpox
4 Pox
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Duress

3 Bottled Cloister
3 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Culling Scales


3 Nether Spirit
2 Tombstalker
3 Phyrexian Totem
1 Chimeric Idol

4 Mishra's Factory
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawg
19 Swamps

[Clark Kant]

That's a very well thought out budget list.

Ensnaring Bridge + Tombstalker & Phyrexian Totem is major antisynergy though.

Just for reference, here is the budget list posted in the opening post...

Variant Three - Budget

(Mana)
18 Swamp
2 Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Mishra’s Factory
4 Dark Ritual

(1cc Disruption)
4 Duress
4 Innocent Blood
2 Cabal Therapy/Funeral Charm

(2cc Disruption)
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
2 Powder Keg

(3cc Disruption)
4 Pox
2 Infest

(Win Conditions)
3 Nether Spirit
3 Phyrexian Totem

Of course, that list was back when Goblins and Affinity were popular and Goyf didn't take over the format yet, making Infest and Funteral Charm very solid.

For the current meta, I would go...

-2 Infest
-2 Funeral Charm
+4 Something

Culling Scales, Powder Keg and Ensnaring Bridge are better answers in the current meta. Bottled Clostier is a solid card drawer and a nice combo with Ensnaring Bridge. But I'm not convinced Ensnaring Bridge is worth it over Powder Keg as it likely meaning cutting some Totem and Tombstalker for Bitterblossom.

[Top Deck]

currently for pox my deck list looks as follows:

threats
4 the rack
3 tombstalker
1 nether spirit
4 bitterblossom

discard
4 delirium skeins
3 pox
4 smallpox
4 hymn to tourach
4 wrench mind

utility
2 sensei's divining top
2 grafted wargear
4 dark ritual

lands
3 sheltered valley
18 swamp

i am focusing in on more discard. in a lot of situations i found that non-targetted by massive discard like skeins felt better than pox in many situations. it was all discovered by accident when i was playing with a few friends and had skein proxied in as something else which i can't remember right now.

and once i accidentially casted skeins forgetting what the original card was. it just felt "better" to use it at that point.

pox is great however most of the time you dont want to ever take out more than 1 critter... if you are taking out 2 critters than chances are they had 4-6 already and we're already dead. the cards that i felt i wanted to control more of were the cards in hand.

i wanted to get my opponents into top decking mode asap because generally my topdecks were stronger in the long haul than their's.

[Fons]

Does this look better?

4 Smallpox
4 Pox
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Duress

3 Bottled Cloister
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Culling Scales
3 Innocent Blood

3 Nether Spirit
4 Chimeric Idol

4 Mishra's Factory
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawg
19 Swamps

[Clark Kant]

Yes it def looks better.

If I were to build a Budget Pox deck today, it would likely look like this...

Variant Three - Budget Revised

4 Innocent Blood
4 Smallpox
4 Pox

4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach

3 Bottled Cloister
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Meekstone

3 Nether Spirit
4 Bitterblossom

4 Mishra's Factory
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawg
18 Swamps

I'm not sure how much Bitterblossom's go for so the card may take the deck out of budget range.

With the modern domination of Goyf, I would absolutely run the full 4 Innocent Blood in any build without Tombstalker though.

I cut Idol because I am still concerned with antisynergy with Ensnaring Bridge, this time with Chimeric Idol.

You want to activate and attack with Idol after you played out your spells for the turn. So many times, you will end up with 2 cards and thus unable to attack with Idol by the time you can activate him.

I'm not too keen on Bitterblossom due to the lifeloss but it works better than Idol in a build with Ensnaring Bridge.

If you go that route, you have to cut Culling Scales as it has poor synergy with Bitterblossom.

And that's how you would arrive at the list I posted above.

But it depends on you. If you're okay with running Idol with Bridge, go for it.

[Clark Kant]

Well, I just checked the price of Bitterblossom and well, crap.

But that's no big deal.

Meekstone serves a similar purpose that Ensnaring Bridge did in your build but at a cheaper casting cost and without the antisynergy with Idol or Totem (Idol and Totem are just artifacts by your untap phase). The major disadvantage with Meekstone is that they get in one attack before a creature becomes unable to attack.

So you could easily run something like this...

Variant Three - Budget Revised

4 Innocent Blood
4 Smallpox
4 Pox

4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach

4 Meekstone
4 Random Cards

4 Nether Spirit
4 Chimeric Idol/Phyrexian Totem

4 Mishra's Factory
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawg
18 Swamps

[evilfred]

First 4 Nether Spirit is too much I think. Especially if you don't have a Tombstalker to remove some out of your graveyard.

Ensnaring Bridge work for you and against you so I don't see why you placed it here too.

I like the Meekstone idea!

I think that in a Pox deck you need crucible of world... and wasteland!

Sinkhole is very useful an can be replaced with river of tears for budget player.


Here's a list I use to play:

Lands
3x Mishra's Factory
13x Swamp
4x Wasteland
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Creatures
2x Nether Spirit
2x Tombstalker
4x Phyrexian Totem

Spells
4x Duress
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Sinkhole
2x Pox
4x Smallpox
4x Dark Ritual
2x Crucible of Worlds
4x Thoughtseize
2x Infernal Tutor

Anyway this is just my two cents :)

[Clark Kant]

I really wanted to try out Epochrasite in a more aggressive less crucible oriented build of the deck.

This led me to the following list. What do you guys think?

4 Epochrasite
4 Tombstalker

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Ghastly Demise

2 Pox
4 Smallpox
4 Sinkhole
4 Rancid Earth
4 Vindicate

4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scrubland
4 Swamp
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yagmoth
2 Mishra's Factory (Could be Flagstones of Trokair/Barren Moor/Dakmor Salvage/Swamp)

Desperately seeking space for inclusion...
2 Sensei's Divining Top

Which land would you play in the last two land slots? I think Mishra's Factory is best but Flagstones, Barren Moor, Dakmor Salvage, Swamps or something else (ex: Cabal Pit) are all viable options?

What other changes would you make to the build?

[irrelevant]

i have been playing pox for a little while now and have found that i have a hard time forcing the last couple points of damage through. so i tried to fit in a little burn into what was a mono black shell. let me know what you think, i haven't had a chance to test it yet.

3 mox diamond
4 lightning bolt
4 chain lightning
4 pox
4 small pox
4 hymn to tourach
4 thoughtseize
2 tombstalker
3 crucibal of worlds
4 sinkhole

4 mishras factory
3 bloodstained mire
4 wasteland
3 polluted delta
3 badlands
4 swamp
1 moutains
3 urborg

sb
4 extirpate
4 powder keg
3 shattering spree
4 leyline

[Clark Kant]

I like the idea a lot actually. Not sure how strong it is in practice though.

It's a trade off.

I opt to play 4 Vindicate and 4 Rancid Earth because of the extreme consistency they offer.

While slow, this absolute ensures that the deck can wreck havoc on your opponents manabase turn after turn.

But that strategy takes a while, it's a slow burn. I have on atleast a dozen occasions brought opponents down to 2-3 life with Tombstalker or Factories or Pox effects and then had to rely on slowly drawing into multiple Smallpoxes and Rancid Earth to deal the last few points of damage.

By opting to play 4 Bolt and 4 Chain Lightning instead, you do help deal more damage much faster and more efficiently.

But it does have a key disadvantage too...

You are overly reliant on drawing and resolving Pox or Tombstalker every single game. Simply put, the way your deck is, you will never get your opponent within range of a couple of Bolt effects to finish the job if your Pox gets countered or your Tombstalker gets killed. I can go into this in more detail but it's fairly self explanatory.

This one disadvantage is nothing that can't be fixed though. Nor is it something damning to the idea. The idea could well work and become a strong deck.

Anyways, if you go that route, you absolutely should play 4 Tombstalker. He is the best shot you have at getting your opponent within Bolt range.

[Jak]

Why the hell is the same discussion happening in two threads?

[Clark Kant]

so i tried to fit in a little burn into what was a mono black shell.

Here's the main problem with that. The best pox lists play more land destruction spells than most players play land (all of them are versatile like Vindicate, or Rancid Earth to take out armies of elves).

It's okay for most good Pox lists to get into top deck mode. They can count on consistently repeatedly drawing LD and ensuring that their opponent never gets a land on the board until eventually they drew half their deck and topdeck a Tombstalker.

By replacing land destruction spells with burn, you throw that advantage out the window.

[irrelevant]

Here's the main problem with that. The best pox lists play more land destruction spells than most players play land (all of them are versatile like Vindicate, or Rancid Earth to take out armies of elves).

It's okay for most good Pox lists to get into top deck mode. They can count on consistently repeatedly drawing LD and ensuring that their opponent never gets a land on the board until eventually they drew half their deck and topdeck a Tombstalker.

By replacing land destruction spells with burn, you throw that advantage out the window.

yea its theory vs practice. unfortunately after play testing it it doesn't seem very good. you lose a lot of the control aspect and do rely heavily on resolving key spells. instead of forcing land destruction i have split the effectiveness of the deck. back to white splash.

[SuckerPunch]

Pox players, it would be awesome if you can help me tweak/finetune my list. It's a more aggressive build than most (and transforms into Eva Green as needed) but I want it to first and foremost be a super tweaked Pox list...

44 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker

3 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Sinkhole
4 Rancid Earth
4 Vindicate
2 Pox
2 Swords to Plowshare/Reanimate

4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
3 Bayou
3 Scrubland
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Swamp
2 Mishra's Factory



If you're curious about my tranformational board, here it is...

Sideboarding In
+4 Dark Ritual
+4 Hypnotic Specter
+3 Nantuko Shade
+3 Snuff Out
+1 Thoughtseize

Subbing Out
-4 Smallpox
-4 Rancid Earth
-2 Mishra's Factory
-2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
-2 Pox
-1 Vindicate

But this isn't about the board, I can tweak that later.

My concern right now is about making the maindeck as absolutely as perfectly tweaked and tuned a Pox list as is humanly possibly.

So any help in that area is much appreciated.

P.S: Yes I know Goyf doesn't trample and has no evasion, but I still think its exceedingly strong, both as a blocker and a very quick finisher.

[Fons]

What about a BU Pox with Countertop?

4 Pox
4 Smallpox
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Duress


3 Sensei's Diving Top
3 Counterbalance
3 Propaganda
2 Bottled Cloister

3 Avatar of Will
4 Imaginary Pet

2 Crucible of Worlds

3 Tainted Isle
4 Sunken Ruins
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
2 Island
2 Wasteland

Imaginary Pet seems like a great wincon along with Avatar of Will.
Propaganda protects you from gobos and ichorid
Bottled Cloister is card draw and keeps pets in play.
Countertop should be good in here due to the large amount of of 1ofs 2ofs and 3 ofs.

[rleader]

I still hate bottled cloister, even if it's sort of a combo there. 4 mana just doesn't fit pox well, and if you're going to reach that high for a spell, it should be more vicious like Haunting Echoes or something.

I've always wanted to try a B/u build with main deck leyline of the void and Web of Inertia. Silly, yeah, and if you're going to be silly you might as well go all the way with Mists of Stagnation, but ah well.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

I played this at worlds and won 4 of the 7 rounds I played and the rounds I lost were very close.

// Lands
21 [UNH] Swamp

// Creatures
4 [MM] Nether Spirit

// Spells
4 [TSP] Smallpox
4 [US] Dark Ritual
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (3)
4 [OD] Innocent Blood
4 [IA] Pox
4 [AQ] The Rack
4 [PY] Chimeric Idol
4 [US] Duress
3 [ON] Smother

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate

[Fons]

so i decided that imaginary pet was kind of a pain to keep in play so I started playing teferi's imp in its spot. So far imp has been great except for the clock part.

[SuckerPunch]

Congrats TooCloseToTheSun, the list looks very awesome. But I think 21 is too low a land count. And The Rack seems iffy. How about Epochrasite instead. He's a very strong and very underused win condition. Not just better than The Rack, Epoc is slightly better than even Chimeric Idol in my testing.


What about a BU Pox with Countertop?

4 Pox
4 Smallpox
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Duress


3 Sensei's Diving Top
3 Counterbalance
3 Propaganda
2 Bottled Cloister

3 Avatar of Will
4 Imaginary Pet

2 Crucible of Worlds

3 Tainted Isle
4 Sunken Ruins
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
2 Island
2 Wasteland

Imaginary Pet seems like a great wincon along with Avatar of Will.
Propaganda protects you from gobos and ichorid
Bottled Cloister is card draw and keeps pets in play.
Countertop should be good in here due to the large amount of of 1ofs 2ofs and 3 ofs.

The blue splash looks really cool.

Avatar of Will seems very solid. But neither Pet nor Imp seems worthwhile. Why not play Tombstalker?

Also, you could add an extra Crucible and up the Wasteland and Mishra's Factory count.

[Noisome]

I've been playing your build, TooCloseToTheSun, with some small changes and it has been running well. I know its pretty close to a standard Mono B pox and has been running smooth.

The changes are:

-3 Smother
-1 Nether Spirit
+4 Sinkhole


I have tried other builds, ones with Phyrexian Totem and with white and I'm not too keen on either setup. Pox just feels like it should be lean and mean with few weaknesses and Totem increases weaknesses as does white, while making the deck a little slower. Although either one is probably less prone to disruption or removal, it gives the opponent time to come back.

One addition I saw however that might make the late game more playable is if you sideboard in Leyline of the Void, maybe try Gravestorm for draw. It might keep Tarmogoyf/Threshold down, and if Leyline is out, you get a free extra draw every turn.

About the land count possibly being too low, anything higher seems too high when I played, often getting too much land and not enough draw. A twenty-one land count seems smooth and I'm usually never in hurt for more mana.

Thanks for posting it as it has helped me have a solid deck.

Noisome

[SuckerPunch]

You're playing 8 symmetric land destruction spells though. 4 Smallpox and 4 Pox.

They are too good not to play since they serve as discard and creature kill too all in one.

But, the reason you can get away with symmetric land destruction is by playing more land than the curve would suggest.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

Yeah i would probably run sinkholes too if i had them, also i have been mulling over putting in 3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and 4 Mishra's Factory

[Noisome]

I do like Epochrasite in the deck, and though I do like the fact it comes back from Lightning Bolt pissed off, him being out of the game sometimes for a while bothers me. Also I can't Pox/Blood before I attack in order to clear out an annoying blocker, which Chimeric Idol is famed for.

Its plays like: My opponent has an untapped Plains and Isamura on the table and possibly or a known (with Duress) StP in hand. On my turn, I Smallpox to take out the land and Isamura, and I swing with Chimeric. He didn't have a chance to play StP or block which Epochrasite would be gone to the other side of the world.

Other than plays like that, I think he is great in the deck and a major annoyance to the opponent. Many times has his points come across which with Chimeric I would have to have an extra turn to finish off an opponent, which sometimes isn't possible.



The other card that might be a nice two of in the deck is Rite of Consumption. Since you are dealing damage to your opponents mainly via creatures and pox, get the last few points in via a black Fling. So if that moat is killing ya, throw your useless creature at it. Especially beautiful with Epochrasite/Spirit maybe?



Noisome

[TooCloseToTheSun]

This is the new version i have been playing. I'm taking it to a local tournament next week and i will post a report
// Lands
10 [UNH] Swamp
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory

// Creatures
2 [MM] Nether Spirit
4 [FUT] Tombstalker

// Spells
4 [TSP] Smallpox
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (3)
4 [IA] Pox
4 [PY] Chimeric Idol
4 [U] Sinkhole
4 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [MI] Dark Ritual
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [MM] Snuff Out

[Barsoom]

First, this is a wonderful deck, quite budget to build, much funny to play, and strong too.
Your list is similar to mine, only mine is more budget cause i run Duress and Icequake instead of Thoughtseize and Sinkhole, 4 Infest istead of Chimeric Idol and more lands and no Dark Ritual (Innocent Blood instead).
I have some questions for you: this deck is very mana hungry, for pox effects and such, is 22 lands + dark rituals going good for you? (i run 24 lands and no dark ritual atm).
I wanna hear your opinion about Idol too, i'm running infests in this place, how is going the Idol for you?

[Mordel]

TooClose: I think that four tombstalkers might be a bit too much. Three would probably be a better number. It can be granted that they are a quicker kill card than the spirit, but I think four is just too many. Realistically, you will be playing them on the fourth turn or so and by having four in the deck, you risk random things happening that can involve a tombstalker getting tossed into the graveyard and shutting off a spirit.

[rleader]

TooClose: I think that four tombstalkers might be a bit too much. Three would probably be a better number. It can be granted that they are a quicker kill card than the spirit, but I think four is just too many.

Four is too many. OTOH, they're the only card you have that puts combo on a clock, being that no matter how hard you punish the hand and land of combo decks (especially ones play ill gotten gains), they are usually just a topdeck away from messing you up. So that's one thing in favor of running four, even if it's too many.

[Barsoom]

I'm playing with 3 Tombstalkers too, seems the right number.

Anyway, this Thread should be on the Established Decks Forum; this is really optimized and tested "ad nauseam", both the normal and budget decks; the first post by Clark Kant is really INSANE comprehensive about card choices, matchups and everything you need for building a deck: the thread got 700 replies and 30000 views, with extensive talking about everything related to the deck.
About tournaments results, if you search for "Pox" on deckcheck you will find 32 results top8; the deck itself is quite strong and can at least fight against everything in this metagame.

Should i PM a moderator for this?

[Captain Hammer]

Yeah you probably should PM a mod or something about that. The opening post is VERY through and all the builds in it are solid.

Epocrasite is a threat that probably deserves to be played more though. It's very good.



I have some questions for you: this deck is very mana hungry, for pox effects and such, is 22 lands + dark rituals going good for you? (i run 24 lands and no dark ritual atm).

I played Pox for a bit. Definately agree with you. There is no way you can support 4 Smallpox, 4 Pox and hope to make use of 4 Wasteland off of just 22 total lands.

[hells33kerd]

well ok so this is my pox deck and it's not quite budget but it is legacy

8 Creatures
2 Epochrasite
3 Nihilith
3 Tombstalker

26 spells
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Innocent Blood
3 Night's Whisper
3 Pox
3 Rancid Earth
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox

5 artifacts
3 Chrome Mox
2 Sensei's Divining Top

18 lands
18 Swamp

15 sideboard
4 leyline of the void
4 infest
3 engineered plague
4 pithing needle

so far i haven't found the 18 lands a problem and the Chrome mox is like a godsend for me in this deck because it doesn't die to pox and can fuel a 1st turn sinkhole or hymn if i went 2nd. night's whisper is good to put on the mox and helps fuel me along when i'm top decking without the top....which brings me to the top.....i read somewhere in here that pox would draw dead cards when in top deck and well the top solves that....oh and just to explain my play style somewhat i'll say this, to me pox is more like a big flame rift with discard, LD and creature kill tacked on :tongue:

[rleader]

pox is more like a big flame rift with discard, LD and creature kill tacked on

Actually, Pox is more like 4 color landstill but suckier*. It does have advantages, but over all, you should be playing similarly to landstill and be using similar card choices.

Then again, there's no point lecturing anyone in this thread because if there's anything good about the deck, it makes everyone feel like they're in the driver's seat of shaping their lists, no matter how much Klark and I object to certain choices. :tongue:


* we operate at sorcery speed, discard doesn't cost the opponent tempo in the same way that counters do, no academy ruins + explosives, no way to react when we're tapped out, Tarmogoyf (when run main or sideboarded) is a much better clock against combo than Tombstalker, no good draw or card filtering. Positives, OTOH: win or lose, our games are faster and rarely go to time, very rare mirror matches or meta hate while taking advantage of chewing up on meta-decks like Dragon Stompy.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

I played Pox for a bit. Definately agree with you. There is no way you can support 4 Smallpox, 4 Pox and hope to make use of 4 Wasteland off of just 22 total lands.

Were u playing my list because I run just fine off of the twenty two land in my deck. With crucible out it makes it a lot easier.

over the last couple days i have consistent beaten tombstone, solidarity, sui black, enchantress, and some other random. This deck has a lot of potential.

[Captain Hammer]

Samsunait, what did the mods say about moving the thread to the Established Decks forum?

Too close to the sun,

No. I supposed if you run 4 Crucible and 4 Chrome Mox or 4 Dark Ritual, you could get away with 22 lands no problem. But without the latter, you're basically playing 22 land and 12 sac outlets for those land (4 Smallpox, 4 Pox, 4 Wasteland). That's almost like playing just 10-14 lands.

If it works for you though, that's cool.

On the same note, yeah Chrome Mox seems like it could be real solid in Pox. Way better than Ritual since its a consistent source and this is a slow controllish deck. How has it been for the you guys who run it?

[rleader]

How has it been for the you guys who run it?

Most of the people who do or claim they do are ones who don't play in real tournaments (where people bring their A-game and don't concede at the first touch of land destruction) but just goof off on workstation. Mox can be nice, but it's bad against opposing control decks and generally doesn't speed you up in any relevant way versus combo; and in both cases, it costs you a card.

It's funny, all of the top8 decks that show up have lists that seem pretty archaic (things like chimeric idol), so either all of this new tech is garbage or these people aren't making anything out of it.


Also, on moving this thread, Vaka Pox (white splash for vindicate/ghostly prison) is already in established decks.

For this thread to be moved, it would have to have something remotely close to a consistant deck list and that'll never happen unless:

1. People with really bad ideas who only playtest against Elves decide to shut up.

2. Pox decks in general start to top8 enough to get the thread moved into the ATW (archetype to watch) forum.

As things stand, the only cards generally agreed upon by the peanut gallery are Smallpox and Sinkhole -- and 8 cards do not an established deck make.

[Barsoom]

Samsunait, what did the mods say about moving the thread to the Established Decks forum?

I sended a PM to Nihil Credo, and he said that there is already the Vaka Pox Thread on Established, but that he can close one topic, and let the other topic live. We'll see what happen.
I think this thread can be a better starting point than the Vaka Pox one.

[Arne]

I don't know... Imho, Vaka Pox has proven to be stronger and more competitive than the mono-B build.

Let me be clear, I haven't seen a pox deck reach the T8 for quite some time, but when it did, it usually was a W/B Build. There are reasons why people don't post a lot in either thread...

[montanhas18]

Hi,

I play Pox (mono-black) regularly but I don't play in any tournaments (no Legacy tournaments around here). So please spare the "stfu noob!" replies. I just wanted to ask y'all what you think about two cards I really like. Not saying their amazing or not, just wanted to hear what people who play Pox in tougher - or more serious - environments have to say:

Blackmail
B
Sorcery
Target player reveals three cards from his or her hand and you choose one of them. That player discards that card.

Raven's Crime - B
Sorcery (Common)
Target player discards a card.
Retrace (You may play this card from your graveyard by discarding a land card in addition to paying its other costs.)

(I did search the thread but found no comments. If I did miss, I'm sorry for bringing this up again.)

Thanks.

[Nihil Credo]

I had the chance to scroll through the threads today - I actually thought "Vaka Pox" was just a team name for the same deck, but I learnt that it indicates the White splash builds.

There is a bit of cross-pollination between the two threads (i.e. posts about BW in this one and about mono-B in the other), but otherwise it seems people actually have a use for both of them. Until that changes, I'm leaving them both open.

[The Rack]

montanhas18: Blackmail isn't all that bad in the deck and overall as a discard card however with the addition of Thoughtseize in the 1cc range has moved Blackmail out of contention. I would first run Thoughtseize, then Duress, then blackmail, but there isn't a deck that wants 12 1cc discard spells. Hymn is overall better than it too.

Raven's Crime: It's really good in Loam based decks so maybe if your pox deck ran Loam it would support it, but Pox already gets rid of your lands anyhow. I would probably say no to both of them.

[Arne]

on the other hand. To discard a land card with raven's crime and then put it into play because of your CoW seems pretty dandy:tongue:

But like the rack said; they are both not strong enough because of thoughtseize and duress... If I were to play a budget pox deck (which is easy to do) I'd play raven's crime.

[slylie]

I think if your build includes the rack as a win condition and crucible as mine does, raven's crime is worth at least two spots in this deck. It turns all of your mid-late game dead land draws into discard, and with crucible out its even better. Even early game first turn dark ritual out crucible with raven's crime in hand can be amazing. assuming you have 3-4 lands for the next 2 turns you rip apart your your opponents hand while holding your business spells back to take out whatever they managed to get on the board. Late game or after you pox, with raven's crime each land you draw forces them to discard a card they drew and can't play because of the land loss or are holding to stay out of reach of the rack. Sure I would rather hit them with an early thoughtseize or duress over making them discard their worst card, but the mileage you can get out of one raven's crime can really add up.

[Holo_rip]

Raven won't work with crucible. you have to get the land IN YOUR HAND, so i think you mean life from the loam.

Holo.

[Arne]

I think he means he doesn't lose the land drop...

[kilukru]

So this is the list im curently running :

// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
12 [SHM] Swamp (2)
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
3 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

// Creatures
3 [FUT] Epochrasite
3 [MM] Nether Spirit
3 [FUT] Tombstalker

// Spells
2 [REW] Powder Keg
4 [OD] Innocent Blood
2 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
3 [5E] Pox
3 [FNM] Duress
2 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (1)
4 [B] Sinkhole
4 [TSP] Smallpox

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [FNM] Smother
SB: 2 [REW] Powder Keg
SB: 4 [4E] Dark Ritual
SB: 2 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate


Card choice :

Win con : yes i run 3 epoch, 3 spirit and 3 tombstalker plus the 4 factory and I found out that extra threat in this deck is pretty good. The only thing im not sure about is epoch vs idol, I went with epoch for the casting cost but both seem like great choice

Dark ritual in sb : seem's weird, but too often when i had it in MB it was THE worst card in the deck and most of the time when I draw one i was wishing for anything except that (mostly threat). The card is really strong in SB since it give you a great game against combo and some control deck.

Powder keg : aka the token slayer, also can take out dreagnought and goyf, if you know what you are fighting you can arm one and wait for their drop. Worked better than infest for me as a board cleaner

23 land : Might be a little low, but with the 2 crucible, it generally run smooth, and lets be frank, if we wanted a 100% stable, reliable deck we woul'nd play pox

3/2 Duress/Thoughtseize : Ok i only own 2 thoughtseize, I think the best split would be 2/3, seize isn'nt a must in here since we boast lot's of early creature removal, so if we miss one with duress we can take it out when it hit the board.

Extirpate : There's a great debate right now on the source about this card, I want to mention that Pox is THE deck to abuse this card. Whit all the discard and destruction this deck can produce, you can generaly hit what you want to hit. I still beleive that the best target are dual in low land count deck's, this card can be one of the most powerful tech in this deck.

On an other note, I dont beleive splashing for tarmo is good for this deck, yes it come in early and strong, but he will more often then never but an halt to your main plan, while stalker come a little later when your desire to cast symetrical destruction is much lower. Epoch come as soon as a goyf and once it hit the playing field he's pretty hard to get rid of.

I think that the most prevalent drawback of this deck is that it has a tendency to run out of fuel and most solution to this problem cost life, and this deck is already life hungry(infernal contract, bob,etc) so you end up with a even bigger problem, if someone can find a solution to this, it could propel this deck pretty high, because lets be frank, this deck can wreck a large part of the meta and handle random deck pretty well.

Anyone tried relic of progenitus in here? could be a good GY hate card since it cantrip, fueling you a little

[Captain Hammer]

I see no reason to play 4 Innocent Blood when your creature count is already so high.

But otherwise, the list looks great.

What're some good Innocent Blood replacements?

[Arsenal]

I see no reason to play 4 Innocent Blood when your creature count is already so high.

But otherwise, the list looks great.

What're some good Innocent Blood replacements?

Diabolic Edict. I would normally say Vendetta, but it'll mess with your life too much.

[Blair Phoenix]

List I'm currently running

Lands:
15 swamp
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta

Creatures:
3 Tombstalker
2 Nether Spirit

Spells:
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Pox
4 Innocent Blood
4 Sinkhole
3 Sensei's Devining Top
3 Cursed Scroll
2 Bitterblossom

Basically, I don't run Crucible. Why? I think it comes down to how I play the deck compared to the rest of you. You all seem to play the deck more control-ish, while I play it much more aggressively. Also I think a lot of you use Crucible as a crutch to allow you to use which in essence is a very weak mana base.

[slylie]

Raven won't work with crucible. you have to get the land IN YOUR HAND, so i think you mean life from the loam.

Holo.


Yeh I mean't you can just play the land from the grave anyways so discarding it to raven's crime makes no difference.

anyways I tested more and raven's crime is really is good, even as a 2 of. I'm thinking its an auto-include since it doesn't give your opponent the chance to stabilize after you just poxed. Sure, its not spectacular but once you have just poxed and your opponent is left to draw cards hoping to get back into the game, each land you draw becomes a skull fracture instead of being a land that you don't need anyways. I run 4x sinkhole in my build which makes it even better as you can hold them off mana while they are hoping to draw something they can play, and wasteland + crucible out can just be evil. Before I started testing raven's crime I had alot of games go to both of us in topdeck mode, then me drawing dead lands and them building back up a hand to combo out and kill me or drop x creature after I worked so hard to put the game state in my favor. Now with just one little raven's crime those games turn into wins since you will just be drawing lands (making them discard) or business spells which is usually even better.

BTW to state the obvious tombstalker really is a godsend to this deck. If I ever get my own invitational card I will just ask them to reprint it with my head pasted onto the demon's claw. I'm up to 3 in my build. Nether spirit is good at endlessly blocking goofy but this guy really seals the game. If this thing had pro white it would be worth more than black lotus and mox jet combined.

[slylie]

List I'm currently running

Lands:
15 swamp
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta

Creatures:
3 Tombstalker
2 Nether Spirit

Spells:
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Pox
4 Innocent Blood
4 Sinkhole
3 Sensei's Devining Top
3 Cursed Scroll
2 Bitterblossom

Basically, I don't run Crucible. Why? I think it comes down to how I play the deck compared to the rest of you. You all seem to play the deck more control-ish, while I play it much more aggressively. Also I think a lot of you use Crucible as a crutch to allow you to use which in essence is a very weak mana base.

Thing is, pox is a control deck. Crucible + wasteland is a pseudo win condition against alot of decks, Crucible + mishra's factories is great synergy, and if you run cabal pit its yet another way to abuse the crucible. If you run mox diamond (i don't) its also slightly good. Also in the mirror if you get crucible out you basically win the game.

The tops look really weird in this deck. Especially with only 4 shuffles. ... although delta + crucible + top...... :tongue:

[Androstanolone]

I've found mox diamonds to be incredible in the deck. Essentially replace dark ritual with diamond. You still get explosive starts but the diamond produces the right amount of mana (2 on turn 1 and 3 on turn 2). Three mana on turn one is awkward without a duress. Two mana on turn one is savage, and the mana is *permanent*. It can also be recurred with crucible.

While crucible is essentially a "win more" card, it works very well in a pox deck because of all the synergy. It's "win more" because if you have time to drop it and recur a few lands with it you were in a good position anyway. However, the immense synergy with diamond, factory, pox, smallpox, and wasteland turns it into a house. This combination of "win more" ness and excellent synergy makes the number of crucibles to run very difficult. It's also a matter of how much one wants to depend on the graveyard and nonbasics. If your win cons already depend on the GY (NS, TS) do you want your other strengths (factory, wasteland) to also depend on the GY AND nonbasics? You get into a dangerous zone of opening yourself up to popular power hate. A relatively less-powered deck like this only survives by its ability to evade populate hate. So a bit of a "mixed bag" is what I've found to work best. I treat the deck as one that does not *need* crucible to win, but likes to see a crucible. So I run 2. The diamonds are powerful even without crucible, acceleration AND color-fix (if you wanna W or G splash). I won't post a list because I think it is somewhat meta dependent. I just want to contribute my suggestion of diamond in place of rit plus a couple crucs and trying to keep the nonbasic count under control.

[Captain Hammer]

Yes, I'm starting to think that Mox Diamond in place of Dark Ritual and 1-2 Raven's Crime really should be staples in this deck.

I also think the white splash is the stronger route to go. Plus, by splashing a color, you can play 4 Tombstalker, which is sweet.

[rleader]

I'd still like to hear an actual tournament report from someone who plays mox.

[Arne]

has anyone considered the vulnerability of mox diamond? In my current meta, cards like engineered explosives and powder see a lot of play. I don't think mox diamond would be stronger than a dark ritual in my meta.

[Clark Kant]

I do play Mox Diamond in the white splash build of the deck. It's a strong card, and EE and Keg haven't really been major problems. It helps me justify playing 4 Crucibles, along with 2 Raven's Crime both of which have been really strong.

But I'm still not sure if it would be worth cutting other cards for in the mono black version.

In the white version, it atleast helps smooth out the mana base as well. I wanted to take apart my white version to try out mono black pox again with Mox Diamond to see if the card is worth it here, but I just can't get back to playing Mono B after having picked up white.

[Citrus-God]

I just did some dicking around with Pox lately, and I came up with a really awesome but generic list. The list was consistent, though it had trouble against Goyf Sligh and Burn, I've beaten almost everything else like Thresh, Landstill, Vial Goblins, and TES. Personally, the only decks I hate playing against are Aggro Loam, Burn + Aggro Decks, and White Weenie esque swarm shit. Other than that, Pox has been treating me fine.


// Mana 28
4 Dark Ritual

4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
13 Swamp


// Creatures 4
4 Tombstalker


// Spells 28
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Sinkhole
4 Pox
3 Powder Keg
3 Chainer's Edict
2 Crucible of Worlds


// Sideboard 15
3 Perish
4 Engineered Plague
3 Extirpate
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Duress


Crucible of Worlds is awesome. I one time had this really bad ass opening against Thresh where I played Rit -> CoW. Let's just say it resolved and it was the easiest Game 1 ever. He even boarded terribly against me because I didnt do very much. He assumed I was playing an awful Black Stax build with Rits because I had Powder Keg in play as well. There was also this one time post-pox where I just cast CoW and started recovering Factories and created a soft lock using my Wastelands to keep the opponent from winning. And yes, now does the resolution of Pox actually win the game for you for all the time?

Powder Keg is imo, necessary. It's tons better than Damnation obviously because it's used to kill off small creatures and keep the board clean.


I have Extirpates in the board because Aggro Loam and Ichorid piss me the fuck off. Same reason why I run 4 Relics. Fuck both decks and graveyard randomness decks!

Perish is in the board for Thresh. I was thinking of running Damnation, but Perish is better. Serious, Perish is the shit.

I have extra Duress effects for Combo, Control, and other stupid decks like Ichorid where an extra Duress would be better.


Thoughtseize over Duress? What? Well, the only reason why your life total is ever lower than it should be because some stupid creature resolved and started depleting your life total. With Thoughtseize, you prevent that from happening for the price of two life. Running Duress would let stupid things like Tarmogoyf resolve. Don't let such a stupid card resolve, seriously. Also, Thoughtseize is the shit against Ichorid as well. I stole a game by stabbing Putrid Imp after the Ichorid player had mulled to 4. Bad ass, right?

[rleader]

^ First list I've seen in this thread in 20 pages that I don't have any arguments against. :)

[Clark Kant]

Well Chainer's Edict seems odd. You're never going to have the seven mana for the flashback cost, so Innocent Blood or Smother would work better imo.

And Crucible may need to be three of if you're playing 4 Wasteland and 4 Factories. You might also be better served if the Rituals were something else (say Mox Diamond maybe).

But overall, a very solid list all around. I like it a lot. Great job.

[rleader]

Well Chainer's Edict seems odd.

True, I wasn't going to get that picky though: I always like diabolic edict over the other options myself: 1 mana spells *always* get stopped by countertop (flip top back to your library), and instant speed means you can edict at eot.

My brother plays counter-top in about three different decks though (or, I guess he prefers decks that use it, to put it another way), so I face it a lot in testing.


I one time had this really bad ass opening against Thresh where I played Rit -> CoW.

My favorite COW episode was game one against 4 color landstill. Turn 1s we both thoughtseize each other. I topdeck a hymn to play on turn two. He plays stand still. I take a risk and break it turn three with a COW. I start to wastelock him but he plays stifle on my wasteland attempts three times in a row. It was *hilarious.* He concedes after I force through a Tombstalker.

[Barsoom]

How dark ritual is working for you guys? (like in your list Citrus-God); it's a slot i'm not really sure about it, here my list:

13 Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland

3 Tombstalker
2 Nether Spirit

4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Pox
4 Innocent Blood
4 Infest
3 Crucible of Worlds

I don't have Sinkholes, i know it's a big miss; i still use Infest, but i almost see no more in the lists you are posting, maybe it's outdated, and we play something else now? (like Damnation, or what else). I play against many weenie decks (like Merfolks, white weenie, green stompy and more) so i need something to fight against mass critters.

[rleader]

I wrote a post on the use of dark ritual a while back. My conclusion came down to how you use your sideboard: if you have a lot of three mana spells (trinisphere/e-plague/etc. on top of CoW main) playing dark ritual in the main deck makes a bit of sense.

It's not worth main decking dark ritual in order to "ritual>thoughtseize>hymn" though.

It comes down to the speed of your meta, imo: if there's a lot of combo, it can be worth wasting a card (ritual) to enable you to do things at a speed that you normally couldn't.

Being able to turn 1 "rit>trinisphere" or "rit>duress>powder keg" (game 1) against TEPS is really useful.

If your meta is slower, however, using three cards to take away three cards ("ritual>thoughtseize>hymn") isn't so hot.

[rleader]

I don't have Sinkholes, i know it's a big miss;

It's perfectly acceptable for a more budget pox deck to focus on discard (even using The Rack); I think that's a far more reasonable path to take Pox than a lot of the shenanigans that get posted here.

OTOH, if you have waste-lock built into your deck already, it's kind of an uneasy middleground to be in, as you can't focus one way or another.

[quotw] i still use Infest, but i almost see no more in the lists you are posting, maybe it's outdated,[/quote]

Most people assume that the Thresh matchup is key and Goblins is Dead. If infest works for you, it's not outdated.

If you play against a lot of dredge and charbelcher, my favorite mass removal is echoing decay (instant speed).

[Citrus-God]

How dark ritual is working for you guys? (like in your list Citrus-God); it's a slot i'm not really sure about it, here my list:

13 Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland

3 Tombstalker
2 Nether Spirit

4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Pox
4 Innocent Blood
4 Infest
3 Crucible of Worlds

I don't have Sinkholes, i know it's a big miss; i still use Infest, but i almost see no more in the lists you are posting, maybe it's outdated, and we play something else now? (like Damnation, or what else). I play against many weenie decks (like Merfolks, white weenie, green stompy and more) so i need something to fight against mass critters.


I personally think the best answer to Weenie strategies are Nether Spirit and Powder Keg. Also, I think Dark Ritual is a bad spell here. It's better to cast Sinkhole with Dark Ritual than Smallpox in it's place. However, I would keep Dark Ritual in so you can employ an old favorite spell of mine; Hypnotic Specter. First turn Rit, Pox is a killer move, indeed, but don't forget first Turn Hippies, Duress + Hymn, and other goodies.

Against Weenie decks and Tarmogoyfs, I personally find Powder Keg to be the bomb. Powder Keg is better than say, Damnation, because it comes down earlier, kills a swarm, then proceeds to keep the board clean as Pox and friends wreck havoc.

Here are the changes I would make;

-4 Infest
-4 Innocent Blood
-2 Nether Spirit
-1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

+3 Diabolic Edict/Chainer's Edict
+4 Hypnotic Specter
+3 Powder Keg
+1 Wasteland

Diabolic Edicts fill that slot because you're running Hyppie now. You should be clearing the path for Hyppie to make soft locks on things.


I wrote a post on the use of dark ritual a while back. My conclusion came down to how you use your sideboard: if you have a lot of three mana spells (trinisphere/e-plague/etc. on top of CoW main) playing dark ritual in the main deck makes a bit of sense.

It's not worth main decking dark ritual in order to "ritual>thoughtseize>hymn" though.

Chainer's Edict midgame, Tombstalkers. Post board, you can bring in Smokestacks, Braids, Trinisphere, Ensnaring Bridges, Wretched Mind, or Mind Shatter.


@Innocent Blood vs. Chainer's Edict: I'm running Chainer's Edict because I run maindeck CoW and Dark Rituals which allow me to power into the flashback cost. I also run Chainer's Edict because I want to be able to remove Goyfs while I have an active Tombstalker out so that I can race more effectively.

[rleader]

first Turn Hippies

Also known as a free two for one special. Just about every deck being played out there will make you pay for even trying that. If you want to tell someone to play Eva Green or whatever, just be up front about it, but playing real creatures in Pox isn't exactly the best idea.

You also seem to be misunderstanding the use of powderkeg: it isn't in the maindeck of pox because it's a Cheap Damnation, it's there because it gives you a game-one chance against the widest variety of decks: zombie and goblin tokens, nantuko monastaries that you can't kill with soceries, jitte and its lifegain (keg is the only artifact destruction that black has access to), while being an *acceptable* creature kill if the other two reasons aren't required.

Powderkeg is worse than Terror vs. Tarmogoyf. If you ever manage to kill two goyfs with one powderkeg, your opponent shouldn't even be playing magic.

Powderkeg is supposed to give you options game-one and you're supposed to bring in things that are more appropriate in games two and three. You're misleading him by saying it's a sweeper as it doesn't ever really sweep the things you seem to be indicating it does: It's not damnation, not even close. In most cases, it's just a terror that takes two or three turns to come online -- it just so happens that can save you from being blown out by turn-1 combo decks and artifacts like ensnaring bridge.

[Citrus-God]

Also known as a free two for one special. Just about every deck being played out there will make you pay for even trying that. If you want to tell someone to play Eva Green or whatever, just be up front about it, but playing real creatures in Pox isn't exactly the best idea.

Hyppie is disruption. You keep him around until you feel that you need to cast a Pox or a Smallpox. Chainer's Edict and Powder Keg should keep his spree going as well.


You also seem to be misunderstanding the use of powderkeg: it isn't in the maindeck of pox because it's a Cheap Damnation, it's there because it gives you a game-one chance against the widest variety of decks: zombie and goblin tokens, nantuko monastaries that you can't kill with soceries, jitte and its lifegain (keg is the only artifact destruction that black has access to), while being an *acceptable* creature kill if the other two reasons aren't required.

It's faster than Damnation, which is why I'm running it. The two cards serve the same purpose; to be used against cheap creatures cast in the early game. I realized the flaws of Damnation after a game against Zoo. Had a Powder Keg came into play earlier, I wouldnt be losing that much life that it would put me in Burn range.


Powderkeg is worse than Terror vs. Tarmogoyf. If you ever manage to kill two goyfs with one powderkeg, your opponent shouldn't even be playing magic.

I have done that before because the threat of an implied discard spell or land destruction spell forces them into those positions.


Powderkeg is supposed to give you options game-one and you're supposed to bring in things that are more appropriate in games two and three. You're misleading him by saying it's a sweeper as it doesn't ever really sweep the things you seem to be indicating it does: It's not damnation, not even close. In most cases, it's just a terror that takes two or three turns to come online -- it just so happens that can save you from being blown out by turn-1 combo decks and artifacts like ensnaring bridge.

Have you not been testing against Zoo and Goyf Sligh? I refuse to believe that you will always lost those games. With Powder Keg, you should have a 30-45% chance of actually stealing game 1 if you cast it early. If I wanted a Terror, I would just play Terror or more Edict effects or Smother. But I don't. I want something that answers early game threats effectively and can potentially keep me safe from multiples of that threat as well. Seriously, why are we even having this absurd discussion that we're running some 2 cc artifact just to stop combo when half the cards you run cripples combo?

I do not believe I am misleading him that Powder Keg is more effective than Damnation because

1. I have 3 lands out at a time until I cast a Crucible of Worlds.
2. Powder Keg is much more effective at stopping swarms than Damnation because the more they decide to stock pile, the more you take advantage of the fact you can color screw him. If they stockpile against Damnation, that's awesome, but if they dont and play right into you, they'll drag your life total to Burn range. You want to be casting Pox when they have 1 or no threats in play generally. Powder Keg fullfills this much more effectively.



So by all means, defend your antithesis, because Damnation isn't nearly as effective in stopping White Weenie, Monogreen Stompy, and Zoo swarms compared to Powder Keg and the alternatives are severely sub-par, such as Infest. Another option is to make him run Mox Diamons, fetchlands, and Scrublands just to pull off running Engineered Explosives in that slot instead.

[Barsoom]

After your suggestions, i think i'll change my list as follow:

13 Swamp
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland

3 Tombstalker
2 Nether Spirit

4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Pox
4 Innocent Blood/Chainer's Edict/Diabolic Edict
2 Raven's Crime
3 Crucible of Worlds
2 Powder Keg

Sideboard:
4 Engineered Plague
4 Icequake/Rancid Earth (budget replacement to Sinkhole)
2 Raven's Crime
5 of something else

This way, i'm going for a more discard route, with raven's crime that i saw in the thread is working good for many, and 2 Kegs for taking care of critters.

The other option was to use Icequakes instead of Sinkholes, but i think that the 1 mana more makes all the difference in the world. They are in the side for now against decks with less or no creatures.

Thanks for all suggestions, i really appreciated; if you got more, keep'em coming!

[Clark Kant]

Your list looks extremely solid. Every single card you run in the deck is an absolute bomb, so props to you on that.

My only concern would be that I expect your manabase often craps out on you when you need to play Pox.

Having to pay BBB when a third of your lands produce colorless mana can produce problems sometimes. But I suppose that Rituals helps with that a bit. And if it gets really bad, you could cut back on Mishra's Factory, up the Urborg count to 4, and cut 1-2 Poxes from the list.

I also wanted to comment on my testing with MOX DIAMOND for a moment. It's likely not worth the bother.

I know that I've been running it for the past month or two. But the results are very mixed. Some games it works beautiful, but other games, its absolutely worthless and you can't always discard it away to Pox or Smallpox. You need every card, esp. every top deck to be a powerful effect in this deck.

There's certainly nothing wrong with playing Mox Diamond. But at the end of the day, I'm of the belief that Mox Diamond isn't worth it overall as a whole, even if it works very well on occasion.

[Irish_Mafia]

Alright i wasn't sure were to put this because its not like eva green. Its a poxless build with spash green for goyf and krosan grip. Like i was gonna run vaka pox but i like green more than white. And i know people say why would you wanna play smallpox with goyf, thats simple im not gonna drop a creature then play smallpox, i would play small pox to fuel the yard and then drop a 4/5 roughly sized goyf. And with the land and discard it will be hard for them to stop a goyf and then a stalker swinging down everyturn. So here is the rough list:

4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Mishra's factory
4x Wasteland
6x swamp
2x urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
4x Bayou

4x Tombstalker
4x Tarmogoyf

4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Thoughtseize
4x Sinkhole
4x Small Pox
4x Diabolic Edict
2x Raven's Crime
3x Crucible of Worlds
3x Sensei's Divining Top

Let me know your thoughts. Im still changing around what color splash i wanna play ha.

[Clark Kant]

Top is good, but I don't know if it's the best possible card you could be playing.

Your list looks fairly similar to the below builds.

I hate that the below builds doesn't have room for Crucibles or Raven's Crime. But are you sure you can't splash both green and white. Swords and Vindicate are retardedly good.



4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker

3 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Sinkhole
4 Rancid Earth
4 Vindicate
2 Pox
2 Swords to Plowshare

4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
3 Bayou
3 Scrubland
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Swamp
2 Mishra's Factory



If you're curious about my tranformational board, here it is...

Sideboarding In
+4 Dark Ritual
+4 Hypnotic Specter
+3 Nantuko Shade
+3 Snuff Out
+1 Thoughtseize

Subbing Out
-4 Smallpox
-4 Rancid Earth
-2 Mishra's Factory
-2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
-2 Pox
-1 Vindicate

But this isn't about the board, I can tweak that later.


And I've tried something similar to this before...



4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Bayou
3 Badland
3 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tom

4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach

4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate
3 Smallpox
3 Snuff Out
2 Reanimate

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker
2 Rancid Earth

[Irish_Mafia]

I hate that the below builds doesn't have room for Crucibles or Raven's Crime. But are you sure you can't splash both green and white. Swords and Vindicate are retardedly good
Yeah my problem is that i dont have the most money and i dont have the money to drop for scrublands and vindicate and such.

[rleader]

Have you not been testing against Zoo and Goyf Sligh?

Honestly, no: I've never met them in a tourney so I've never bothered (I didn't even know the later was now on the DTB list, so thanks). I always play Chalice in my sideboard so I wouldn't exactly panic if confronted by either, though.

I'm not sure I'd play pox [deck] if I expected so much burn, though; at the least, I'd probably splash white.

[Citrus-God]

Honestly, no: I've never met them in a tourney so I've never bothered (I didn't even know the later was now on the DTB list, so thanks). I always play Chalice in my sideboard so I wouldn't exactly panic if confronted by either, though.

I'm not sure I'd play pox [deck] if I expected so much burn, though; at the least, I'd probably splash white.

What is your current Sideboard at the moment? I'm interested in hearing how Chalice works out. I might cut the Duresses and maybe 1-2 more cards and shove 4 Chalices in there.

[Captain Hammer]

Forget about land destruction. With all the aggro control decks running around play 8-12 creatures tops these days, I think a super budget version of this deck playing nothing but removal and threats could do quite well, and on the cheap.

Here's a sample list...

Ultra Budget Pox

14 Swamp
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Cabal Pit
2 Dakmor Salvage
4 Mishra's Factory

4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn to Tourach

4 Innocent Blood
4 Smother
4 Smallpox
4 Pox

4 Phyrexian Totem
4 Chimeric Idol
4 Epochrasite/Nether Spirit

What do you think? Is this a bane to Aggro Control decks everywhere? Or should I try to squeeze in even more removal (Powder Keg, Edicts) into the deck?

[Irish_Mafia]

Forget about land destruction. With all the aggro control decks running around play 8-12 creatures tops these days, I think a super budget version of this deck playing nothing but removal and threats could do quite well, and on the cheap.?

If you don't keep aggro control decks off their land then they will just control you all day.

[NecroYawgmoth]

My actual List looks like this...

What do you guys think about it?


11 Swamp
4 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Cabal Pit
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

4 Tombstalker
2 Nether Spirit

4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Pox
4 Sinkhole
4 Smother
2 Innocent Blood
2 Crucible of Worlds


4 Engineered Plague
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Perish
3 Extirpate

[jebus]

Having to pay BBB when a third of your lands produce colorless mana can produce problems sometimes. But I suppose that Rituals helps with that a bit. And if it gets really bad, you could cut back on Mishra's Factory, up the Urborg count to 4, and cut 1-2 Poxes from the list.

I play the same manabase as Samsunait (13 Swamp, 3 UToY, 4 Factory, 4 Wasteland, and 4 Ritual, 3 Crucible) and I usually have 3 Pox because of all the colorless mana. The deck works fine with just 3, although I sometimes go up to 4. I'd love to play 4 all the time, but 4 Wasteland + 4 Factory + 3 Crucible is hard to beat in this deck.

Here's my list. It's somewhat similar to Citrus God's and Samsunait's.

13 Swamp
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Dark Ritual

4 Tombstalker

3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Powder Keg

4 Smallpox
3 Pox
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
3 Duress*

* These final 3 slots change all the time. Right now I have 3 Duress in there, as having 7 turn one bombs (Duress and Seize), to go with 8 turn two bombs (Hymn and Sinkhole), and 7 Poxes (4 Small and 3 Big), gives a nice balance and consistency to the disruption.

I have lots of options for these slots, though. 3 Edict / Smother, or 1 Pox + 2 Duress / Edict / Smother / N.Spirit / Reanimate / Raven's Crime, all make sense. And the SB is also far from final. I have 4 E.Plague and 4 LotV, and the rest is also in flux. Recommendations, anyone?

[Captain Hammer]

I think Pox can go one of two routes. It can use land destruction with Smallpox and Pox to focus on mana screwing your opponent. Or it can use more creature kill with Smallpox and Pox to focus on robbing your opponent's of ALL of their threats.

I think the time is now ripe for pox to give up the focus on land destruction (Armaggedon Stax does that better anyways), and instead focus on creature kill. This allows the deck to be built on a lower budget too, and won't require a white splash.

With goblins gone and the tilt in the current metagame where 80% of decks only run 8-12 threats, and run twice as many lands, it seems to me that focusing on removing all of your opponent's creatures is the better plan.

A creature kill pox deck using for example...

4 Innocent Blood
4 Small Pox
4 Pox
4 Smother
2-4 Edicts

as a minimum, would make it pretty much impossible for your opponent to keep even one threat on the board, EVER.

While you beat them up with Chimeric Idols, Nether Spirits and other threats immune to your removal.

[jebus]

Then, of course, you run into a combo deck and suddenly half your deck is dead.

Everybody starts the game with a hand and a vast majority of decks use land, but not everyone relies on creatures, so focusing entirely on this is dubious at best. For the most part, the Legacy "metagame" is just an internet invention anyway. There is a lot of randomness out there, and narrowing the deck's strategy this much is questionable.

Pox's strength is being able to attack land, hand, and creatures practically simultaneously, then negating their effect on yourself with cards like Crucible, Nether Spirit, etc. Focusing entirely on creature kill (a) leaves you vulnerable to other strategies, and (b) ignores the strength of your core cards. Besides, most lists pack 10+ removal spells anyway (Pox, SPox, Keg, Edict, Smother, etc)

[4eak]

I think Pox can go one of two routes. It can use land destruction with Smallpox and Pox to focus on mana screwing your opponent. Or it can use more creature kill with Smallpox and Pox to focus on robbing your opponent's of ALL of their threats

I've tested both, and I have to admit that focusing on creature disruption just isn't acceptable in a tournament setting (although it can be surprisingly powerful in untimed events).

Don't get me wrong, MBC focused on creature threats can be very strong against non-combo, but only if you are honestly wiling to deck certain archetypes out (seriously, deck them). Additionally, with less land destruction, and fewer timewalks because of it, you'll find it difficult to actually answer every threat from an aggro deck (not aggro-control, but honest to goodness 20+ creature.dec). Remember, it only takes one to slip through (and they will, if you sit down and test it).

Land and hand destruction is obvious proactive disruption, but it is just as important in allowing you to switch from the control to aggro role as it gives temporary protection to YOUR threats, enabling you to win the game without having to deck your opponent.


peace,
4eak

[Captain Hammer]

Who said anything about taking out Hymn or Thoughtseize/Duress? I never said to cut the discard, or the threats. I never said that our win condition should be decking.

I was talking about running LD vs. Removal. I think nowadays with decks running half as many creatures as lands, removal is more useful.

You still have Chimeric Idol/Tombstalker/Phyrexian Totem/Epocrasite/Nether Spirit/Factory to beat down with.

All those threats win games, and they all do fine dealing with the threats that non-aggro control decks play. 3/3s and 5/5s are big enough to block most pure aggro creatures and survive. But they can't beat Goyfs/Stalkers. So you need enough removal to kill off your opponent's goyfs and tombstalkers and dreadnoughts consistently.

I don't see what Sinkhole or LD in general ever did against combo.

Combo was always a tough match pre-board for pox. Post board, you have to lean on Chalice or maybe Trini or Null Rod vs. combo.

[4eak]

@ Captain Hammer


I never said that our win condition should be decking.

I didn't say you did.

I said that it is the unfortunate side effect of playing heavy creature control MBC against the format. Sinkhole is good because it lets you win before time is up, and it gives you timewalks in stages of the game where you really want them. MBC needs that tempo to remain competitive.



I was talking about running LD vs. Removal.

I know -- feel free to read my post again. I told you that it wasn't a good idea from my testing. There are more threats to answer than just creatures, and LD universally disrupts those threats that require mana (even if only temporarily), while creature removal does not.

The problem is not that people are running more land than creatures, or that they are just running fewer creatures in general. It is really that they've substituted creatures cards with control cards, and LD helps to negate the value of both control and creature cards, while creature removal doesn't.

I can run 30 edicts in my deck to stop myself from losing to 12 creature.dec, but that doesn't mean that my remaining 10 threats are going to see play or live to help me win either. Most decks will answer your threats in this case too.

LD helps you actually win the game, while creature removal really just stops you from losing the game.



I don't see what Sinkhole or LD in general ever did against combo.

Often enough, it time walks against them if they don't kill on turn 1.


peace,
4eak

[jebus]

I don't see what Sinkhole or LD in general ever did against combo.

Combo was always a tough match pre-board for pox. Post board, you have to lean on Chalice or maybe Trini or Null Rod vs. combo.

It could keep them under the critical mass of mana they need to go off. Not much, but still better than having a fistful of removal with nothing to aim at.

Besides, Pox and Smallpox are actually suboptimal removal spells. If not for the fact that they also cause discard and LD, they won't be playable. This deck exploits that precisely - it attacks on all three fronts (hand, land, creature).

Anyway, dropping the LD for more removal (the deck already has 10+ slots for this, which coupled with the disruption is a lot) basically makes the deck into a bad MBC variant with Pox, not a Pox deck.

[Captain Hammer]

It's a meta call, but in this meta all the threats are extremely cheap and big.

Goyf, Tombstalker and Dreadnought all come into play just as fast or faster than your land destruction. No pox deck, no matter how well build can hope to prevent your opponent from ever reaching two mana.

Futher, Goyf, Stalker and Dreadnought all overwhelm your resilient threats by a significant margin and can finish you off in just a few turns.

Running enough removal that you will always have an immediate response to scary threats like that is a perfectly legitimate approach, esp considering that 90% of decks still have no way of winning other than through attacking with creatures. And the few that do, combo, was always a matchup that you had to rely on the sideboard to fight off.

There is nothing flawed about focusing on hand destruction, removal, and resilient threats rather than on hand destruction, land destruction and resilient threats.

[jebus]

Goyf, Tombstalker and Dreadnought all come into play just as fast or faster than your land destruction. No pox deck, no matter how well build can hope to prevent your opponent from ever reaching two mana.

...

There is nothing flawed about focusing on hand destruction, removal, and resilient threats rather than on hand destruction, land destruction and resilient threats.

Same goes for removal. No pox deck, no matter how well built, can hope to prevent your opponent from ever playing - and protecting - a threat.

Also, you seem to discount the fact that most Pox builds actually pack a lot of removal - at least 10 (4 Smallpox, 3 Pox, 3 Keg), and as much as 15+ cards. Pox is not just discard, LD, and threats... it's discard, LD, removal, and threats. Pox capitalizes on the fact that it has 7-8 cards main deck that disrupt on three fronts, and pack extra cards of each kind of disruption. For example, having the following:
4 Wasteland
4 Sinkhole
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn
4 Innocent Blood
3 Powder Keg
alongside 4 Smallpox and 4 Pox gives you 16 Discard, 16 LD, and 15 Removal, all in one deck. This density of available disruption is what makes Pox work.

And again, if not for the fact that Pox and Smallpox attacks on multiple fronts, they would be far from optimal as removal spells. If you want to focus on quality removal, go with MBC.

[Jeet]

http://www.cardkingdom.com/images/Conflux/Nyxathid.jpg

What do you guys think of this in pox? It looks pretty big with all that discard. Tombstalker + Nyxathid as finishers should be enough.

[bowvamp]

Lol, tombstalker alone does the job well enough, why do we need nyxathid? Also the art on tombstalker is better. Tombstalker flies. Tombstalker has a fixed p/t, and it's not a win-more (if they don't have a hand, you should have at least 6 cards in the yard). This card is the opposite.

[Jeet]

Lol, tombstalker alone does the job well enough, why do we need nyxathid? Also the art on tombstalker is better. Tombstalker flies. Tombstalker has a fixed p/t, and it's not a win-more (if they don't have a hand, you should have at least 6 cards in the yard). This card is the opposite.

Sometimes Tombstalker gets STP'd and you're left with no beater. I think Nyxathid is better than say Chimeric Idol or Nether Spirit.

Here's the list I'm testing:

// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
11 [UNH] Swamp
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
4 [CON] Nyxathid
4 [FUT] Tombstalker

// Spells
4 [VI] Funeral Charm
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [TSP] Smallpox
2 [EVE] Raven's Crime
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (1)
4 [B] Sinkhole
4 [ON] Smother

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague

I was playing Pox instead of Smother, but now I'm testing the latter.

[Captain Hammer]

When I saw this thread bumped, I was sure it would be to discuss this card...

Wretched Banquet B
Sorcery
Destroy target creature with the least power or tied for least power.

I see this card replacing Innocent Blood in Pox decks everywhere.

This is exactly the removal spell that Pox needed. More versatile than Innocent Blood. And cheaper than Smother.

It actually playable even with a Tombstalker in play (even Goyfs rarely get bigger than 5/6). And in decks where the only threats are Chimeric Idols/Factories, this is a beast.

Innocent Blood sucked in that...

a.) It's unplayable if Tombstalker is already in play.
b.) It doesn't give you any say in which creature you kill. Your opponent always got to make the choice. With this you atleast get some choice. You can choose to destroy their Piledriver rather than letting them sac their Mogg Fanatic.

[Captain Hammer]

morgan coke brought up this card...

Desolation
1BB
At the end of the turn, each player who tapped a land for mana this turn sacrifices a land.

Seems like a far stronger option than Rancid Earth.

This deck already plays Crucible of Worlds, Wasteland, Mishra's Factory and sometimes Mox Diamond and Flagstones of Trokair. This card seems like a natural fit here.

[rleader]

Desolation
1BB

I've tried it, and I think Winter Orb is pretty much just as good and easier to play and play around on your part since you don't have to pray for CoW, a card that is spectacularly bad in multiples.

[Captain Hammer]

Crucible is really strong with Factories and Wastelands already. Most builds run 3 Crucibles, some run 4 already. I think those decks could get away with playing Desolation.

It's basically the same as drawing a wasteland everyturn, or a recurring pox effect that only effects lands. Seems worth trying in some builds.

[Sims]

I just figured I'd throw this out there to get some feedback on a build my friend and I had put together and tweaked a bit on MWS and have had some decent success with.



// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
2 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
18 [TSP] Swamp (4)

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tombstalker
3 [FUT] Nihilith

// Spells
3 [OD] Innocent Blood
3 [MOR] Bitterblossom
4 [A] Sinkhole
4 [TSP] Smallpox
4 [IA] Pox
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (3)
4 [b] Dark Ritual
4 [US] Duress

Originally Nihilith was bouncing around as Phyrexian Totem, Chimeric Idol, etc... But he was flipping through a binder of a friend he was trading with and saw Nihilith and something clicked. It looks really bad on the outside but in actual play the card has been stellar. He ran this at Hadley last month to a meh 2-2 finish, but then took down the side event for a Sea without losing a game. He's been consistantly in contention for, or in, the top 4 of our local events (around 20ish people) since we put this list together. It's proved relatively solid, but I was looking to get some feedback from the rest of the crowd that's played similar decks recently, as I cannot personally proclaim to have played the archtype (aside from helping him with this list) since the days before smallpox.

Comments? Suggestions? Death Threats for running Nihilith?

[rleader]

Crucible is really strong with Factories and Wastelands already. Most builds run 3 Crucibles, some run 4 already. I

Yes, and running three or four crucibles is TERRIBLE even though we all do it. :)

[Captain Hammer]

Sims, I like your build.

But IMO, running Innocent Blood in a build with 7 large creatures is needlessly antisynergic.

You'll frequently have a Tombstalker or Nihilith in play but be at a lower life than your opponent and will be wishing you could kill your opponents Tarmogoyf so that you can attack with your creature without taking damage from your opponent's creature. Innocent Blood won't let you do that. But Wretched Banquet will.

I would certainly try out Wretched Banquet or Smother if you prefer in your build in place of Innocent Blood.

Edit: I just noticed that you're playing Bitterblossom. IMO, BB isn't very good. It costs you too much life and you will lose a lot of the Fairies to Pox anyway. It offers no where near as fast a clock as either Tombstalker or Nyxathid. And you don't need that many creatures anyways.

If you opt to keep BB in your deck inspite of that, then yeah, Innocent Blood is loads better than Banquet.

[MGC_player]

I'm also trying out a monoblack Pox build to run in future tournaments. Any critique would be appreciated.

Lands: 23
23 Swamp

Creatures: 8
2 Tombstalker
3 Nihilith
3 Epochrasite

Spells: 29
4 Duress
4 Smallpox
3 Pox
4 Hymm to Tourach
3 Chimeric Idol
4 Dark Ritual
2 Thoughtsieze
2 Snuff out
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Syphon Life

The list is still being modified (I need to get two more Tombstalkers). I'll probably remove one Epochrasite and 1 Chimeric Idol to make room for the two Tombstalkers. The one of Siphon Life is to make use of the extra lands that I know I will draw and hopefully speeds up the deck some. Epochrasite has actually been good since it double functions as a blocker and a large creature that can pseudoevade a timely pox.

[Captain Hammer]

Syphon Life is not very good. I would cut it. You're only playing 23 lands with 7 pox effects and no crucibles so you're not going to have many excess hands for the Tombstalker.

Snuff Out seems risky, you don't have a lot of life in pox decks. Smother or Wretched Banquet both would work better imo.

Otherwise, your build looks very good.

[Saverus]

// Lands
2 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
18 [TSP] Swamp (4)

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tombstalker
3 [FUT] Nihilith

// Spells
3 [OD] Innocent Blood
3 [MOR] Bitterblossom
4 [A] Sinkhole
4 [TSP] Smallpox
4 [IA] Pox
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (3)
4 [b] Dark Ritual
4 [US] Duress[/code]
...
Comments? Suggestions? Death Threats for running Nihilith?


I liked the idea to add Bitterblossom and Nixathid to a pox deck so i tried your deck and came to these comments :
- I feel Sinkhole to be anti-synergic with Nixathid
- Too little 1cmc selecting discard
- Without enough 1cmc cards you don't need dark ritual. It is a very bad topdeck which is usefull only to cast tombstalker (but casting a Tombstalker should not be a problem with 8 pox effects) or to cast a sinkhole turn 1 with 1 mana burn if you don't have a duress in hand
- Bitterblossom is great, i added 1 as i always want to have at least one in play, the life cost is not a problem
- I am often flooded with swamps

So i made these changes :
+1 Bitterblossom
+1 Nyxathid
+3 Diabolic edict
+4 Blackmail
+1 Mishra'a factory
-4 Dark ritual
-4 Sinkhole
-2 Swamp

I am not sure for the +1 Mishra's factory -1 Swamp, it will need more tests.

[Barsoom]

He is playing with Nihilith, not Nixathid i think.
Your +1 Nixathid means a creature base of
4 Tombstalker
3 Nihilith
1 Nyxathid
This is what you was thinking?

[Saverus]

Oh sorry i read Nyxathid instead of Nihillith. I Tested with 3 Nyxathid. I play now 4 Nyxathid and 0 Nihillith.

Sinkhole and Nihilith would be ok i think (but never tested Nihilith).

My current version :
+1 Bitterblossom
+4 Nyxathid
+3 Diabolic edict
+4 Blackmail
+1 Mishra'a factory
-3 Nihilith
-4 Dark ritual
-4 Sinkhole
-2 Swamp

[Barsoom]

How is working Nyxathid for you? i really like the card on paper, and maybe if it is working good i can make a slot for him in my deck; this is what i'm running at the moment:

13 Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland

3 Tombstalker
3 Nether Spirit

4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Pox
4 Innocent Blood
4 Infest
2 Raven's Crime
1 Thoughtseize
3 Crucible of Worlds

Without testing, i can see these changes:
-4 Infest (i can put these on SB, it's really useful sometimes, but other times it's a dead card)
+2 Nyxathid (not more than 2 i think)
+2 Diabolic Edict

Raven's Crime is working good for me, and with Nyxathid can be even more useful.
I have a question for Sims (and for you), why no Wasteland? the card it's a staple of Pox decks from the start, i'm curious to hear why someone wouldn't play with it.

[Saverus]

I decided not to play land destruction (wasteland and sinkhole) because i wanted Nyxathid to be really big (6/6 or 7/7), and especially bigger than Tarmogoyf. So i play more discard (Blackmail) , and removal (Diabolic edict) to remove the creatures the opponent would not have cast if i had played more land destruction.

I already play a Bw poxless pox with Sinkhole, Crucible, Vindicate, Ghostly prison ... more focused on land destruction and wanted to try something different, more aggressive.

I don't like Nihilith, it seems too slow as topdeck, and is not as big as tarmogoyf.

There are things i want to try (if i manage to get some time) :
- Raven's crime which is a huge card advantage
- 3rd Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

[rleader]

^ maybe something like that peacemaker deck that was floated here, except without Ensnaring Bridge:

http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9644


Spells
4 Innocent Blood
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 The Rack
4 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Cursed Scroll
4 Bottomless Pit
3 Noetic Scales
2 Necrogen Mists
2 Snuff Out
2 Damnation
2 Thoughtseize

Lands
17 Swamp
2 Urborg
3 Blinkmoth Nexus

Alara brought Cunning Lethemancer, which is like the pit/scales, but can attack. I'd probably want to run accel like a mox of some sort, though, because you really want to get those cards out fast and dark ritual alone is too rare to be dependable. Maybe a stompy landbase.

[bowvamp]

How is poxless pox even a deck? The name voids itself, LOOL! Anyways, Nyxathid has been bouncing back and forth between my team members (team [???Q]) and we have come to the conclusion that Nyxathid is a lesser version of the similarly named Nihilith. Nihilith may come out later, but it does so after you've stabilized/emptied their hand of creature kill. If you play Nyxathid when you don't have full control of the board you are subject to killing it yourself or having it killed for you. Nihilith on the other hand is like betting that you won't need innocent blood when it comes out. It may not always end out optimally but you can plan ahead and use the knowledge that you've gained to shape your play style. Nihilith also has the very small advantages of being one black mana less to "play", not breaking standstill when you "play" it, not being dependant on hand size, having evasion, and being less daze-able when it hits play. Just our collaborative brainstorming sessions results...

[Clark Kant]

How is poxless pox even a deck? The name voids itself, LOOL!

Well, if the deck atleast played Smallpox, it could've gotten away with it. But as the list is, yeah it's pretty ridiculous. MBC would fit the deck's name better. I don't know what it's even doing in this thread.