[Deck] Pox [Archive] - Page 4

clavio

02-21-2009, 08:21 PM

Everybody put down their crackpipes and listen up for a second.

This is the deck that I top 8'd with at today's dual for duals in Binghamton:

// Lands
12 Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Tomb of Urami
4 Wasteland

// Creatures
2 Tombstalker

// Spells
4 Thoughtseize
2 Raven's Crime
4 Duress
4 Innocent Blood
3 The Rack
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Pox
3 Crucible of Worlds
1 Cursed Scroll (gonna be syphon life or tombstalker #3....)

// Sideboard
2 Nyxathid
2 Maze of Ith
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Engineered Plague
1 Spinning Darkness
2 Null Rod

There's alot of things people are saying in this thread that I'm not happy about, but I felt like I needed to put up results before I could bitch.

My sideboard is totally messed up right now because I didn't get cards in time, but I think the 60 (61 actually) is strong. Very strong. Cursed scroll blows, I sided it out every match, but I didn't get Syphon Life in time.

For whatever reason, someone at some point said that the rack is bad and nobody ever looked back. This is wrong. Not only is the rack good, its especially good in hard matchups. Sure, if you can totally shut your opponent off from mana it's worthless. But if they are playing something like burn, they don't really need too many lands. They will just keep topdecking burn spells and torching you to death. I'm not saying that the rack alone is enough to beat burn, but it sure as hell helps. Also raven's crime makes it obnoxious.

Tombstalker is great and all, but it absolutely can't be your only wincon. Leyline of the void sees play, and they will more than likely bring it in. This is especially true if you are running a build with crucible. By the way you should be running crucible. I have nyxathid in my board for this reason.

Urborg tomb of yawg sucks in multiples, but if you run wasteland and factory you should run four. Top generally sucks in multiples and everyone is still running four of those.

Thoughtseize and Duress are so good against combo I don't think I would ever run less than four of each.

Innocent blood is better than banquet for now. I don't think you should even consider banquet unless you are running four innocent bloods and for some reason you want to run more creature destruction. Even then I'd probably run edict first. Innocent blood can hit mongoose and progenitus, can't. I've never had an innocent blood and wished it was a banquet. Also innocent blood allows you to sac a creature and kill bridges, which is relevant.

In any case, I think pox is a solid choice right now. I probably would have done better if I didn't face Ichorid 3 times......

Chu

02-23-2009, 02:10 AM

Chu

02-23-2009, 02:13 AM

By the way, do you have any insight as to how to handle Ichorid? I have a strong feeling dredge/Ichorid decks are going to be extremely prevalent before round 3 at Chicago (so many people have the cards, it pops on the t8 radar enough that people will give it some respect, all the people who played dredge two PTQ seasons ago have a huge leg up on practicing with it), and it just feels like a horrible matchup.

Also, if you're worried enough about it to play a 4-of hater in the s/b, what's the right choice?

slylie

02-23-2009, 05:13 AM

I was thinking about playing Pox in Chicago, and play legacy on MTGO a bit, where pox recently has become quite popular.

The online versions of Pox run 2-3 Chrome Mox, and after testing a bit with a slightly modified online version (Demonic Consultation is unrestricted in mtgo legacy!), I really can't imagine living without them.

They enable you to play a turn 1 thoughtsieze or duress that cannot be dazed. They enable you you play a turn 1 hymn that must be forced if you're on the play. A turn 2 Pox is absolutely backbreaking for some decks. They aren't effected by Smallpox or Pox. They are a no-brainer mid game to discard to a smallpox or pox effect.

They really just belong.

I agree 100% with clavio about The Rack. Tombstalker (and epichraiote) are just not enough, especially since you are going to be forced to kill your own Tombstalker a large percentage of the time.

I'm not so hot about Urami though, even less so in "real" legacy with stifle everywhere. Still I can see as a 1 or 2 of -- especially since Chrome Mox (hint hint) means you're halfway to casting all but four spells in your deck if you trigger it.

Demonic Consultation is such a bomb that I'm curious if Vampiric Tutor might be worth looking into. It isn't even half the tutor that Demonix is but it's a great Force/Daze target, and it will let you cheat your numbers a bit.

The online version also leans heavily on top/sac lands. This has always felt a little ackward to me, I think straight vampiric might be better than this engine.

I've tested mox and personally I don't like it in here. I love mox in decks that can draw cards or have sick turn 1 plays like X stompy, but in this deck between symmetrical discard and no draw it just doesn't work for me. I've always played the rack in my build. 2-3 copies. I don't know why people don't play them, its really hard for most decks to deal with and it comes out early when they think its not going to hurt them, then all of a sudden a pox and a hymn later they are searching for answers. Plus they are more likely to hold cards in hand to get around the rack which just makes your late discard draws useful. Tomb of Urami is awesome. Not like tombstalker awesome but as a one or two of and it can do some sick things. Its a 5/5 flying beater that has awesome synergy with crucible and who wouldn't like to slide in a pseudo-tombstalker under standstill. He wins games, and on his day off his tomb taps for black mana and doesn't come into play tapped.

vamp. tutor is banned in legacy.

bowvamp

02-23-2009, 10:47 AM

The main reason that I don't like the rack is that it just takes too long to win. There is a bunch of inevitability, but the rack is counteracted by your opponents draw step. Chrome mox isn't too good because what you're removing is something that you're blindly assuming you won't need. What happens if you have a hand chock full of discard so you remove a sinkhole and play a hymn and they discard double lightning bolt? The only way that I've handled burn/aggro is to go for their mana while dealing with creatures as they come along. Targeted discard is futile. Hymn is okay against aggro, but I'd rather have a sun droplet. Top decking with one mountain in play is all aggro needs to win since it can burn for 3 every turn consistently. That is another reason I don't run the rack or nyxathid. If I get them down to low cards in hand, a good player will hold burn until it can all be played in one fell swoop.

bowvamp

02-25-2009, 12:51 AM

Sorry for the double post, but I have been testing recently and need your advice. I am pretty sure that an edit won't attract any attention and this thread isn't the most active.

I recently have freed up 8 slots in my SB. I need advice on how to SB against decks with the following:

1)Countermagic (specifically daze or do I just assume daze if they play island go I don't like giving them free lands just to play around a first turn daze when it could be a brainstorm)

2)Decks that aren't handled by Sun Droplet (favored kill-most-unfavorable-mu SB slot for me)

So basically that leaves me with these decks:

Counters
1)Thresh (I hate thresh)
2)TA (I don't see it often but it does exist)
3)Landstill(a coin toss MU)

Not handled by droplet
1)Elves(I see it rising in power over goblins)
2)Merfolk(I have got less trouble with these guys)
3)Goblins(Easier than merfolk if you know what you're doing)
4)Eva Green/Sui Black variants(hard to handle, but yet oddly a coin toss MU)

scrow213

02-25-2009, 01:00 AM

Counters
1)Thresh (I hate thresh)
2)TA (I don't see it often but it does exist)
3)Landstill(a coin toss MU)

Not handled by droplet
1)Elves(I see it rising in power over goblins)
2)Merfolk(I have got less trouble with these guys)
3)Goblins(Easier than merfolk if you know what you're doing)
4)Eva Green/Sui Black variants(hard to handle, but yet oddly a coin toss MU)

As far as Daze goes, if you see an Island, or a fetch that can get blue, think Daze. It's played a lot and you should be prepared for it. Team America has a shaky manabase as is, so go for that. Take out lands whenever you can. Landstill sucks, since they have so much card advantage and countermagic. Defense Grid? I honestly don't know what to tell you there. Boseiju would be sweet if this deck used more colorless spells.

bowvamp

02-25-2009, 01:06 AM

One thing that I've been contemplating is the possibility of adding a boseiju as a replacement for a wasteland. I just don't like the life loss.

I was also thinking about trying new discard. I may have to go to thoughtseize instead of duress. Perhaps even cabal therapy. I may even go to blackmail if I can see a good reason for doing so. And I would probably rather start running crucible in the SB over Defense Grid.

jebus

02-25-2009, 01:22 AM

bowvamp:
I'd still prefer Duress, then Blackmail or Funeral Charm. The 2 life lost with Thoughtseize messes up the Pox-math too much, and you don't have enough creatures to use Therapy effectively.

I never really considered Sun Droplet (maybe I should?). I've always had Leyline and E.Plague in my SB as the only fixed slots. Plague helps your non-Sun Droplet matchups somewhat (perhaps combined with Powder Keg?).

bowvamp

02-25-2009, 01:30 AM

I run this as my SB:
3 Sun Droplet
4 Powder Keg
8 ? (used to be extirpate/pithing needle but they don't help much...)

I'll try plague. If you don't take any damage past your 'seize, it sets you up for a perfect pox. That is a huge if though...

clavio

02-25-2009, 08:51 AM

If you are expecting any combo at all, I advise running 4 duress and 4 thoughtseize. Otherwise you won't live long enough for your other disruption to become relevant.

What do you bring powder keg in for?

Countermagic really shouldn't be a problem if you are running enough discard.

Boseiju is a bad idea, your best spells don't even have colorless in their cost!

bowvamp

02-25-2009, 10:38 AM

Well, I would normally bring keg in for my 1 MD Sun Droplet. And depending what deck I was facing, I'd take out one of these:
3 Sinkhole
3 Hymn
3 Mystery Slot (you will think this card choice laughable, but I like it.)

Maybe I'm not running enough discard. Whenever I try to hymn, I get too excited and walk right into a daze. Sometimes I've even been spell snared. And it's REALLY hard to win vs. Counterbalance-Top.

clavio

02-25-2009, 12:01 PM

Erm, I meant what matchups do you bring in powder keg.

bowvamp

02-25-2009, 07:51 PM

Oh, well I bring it in against:
Stax (no duh)
Tribe Variants (mainly the swarm ones)
Low threat count.dec (If I resolve it I outright kill the next threat they get which means no trouble with later FOW's)
Aggro Loam (mox diamond, chalice, low cc creatures)

Mael

02-26-2009, 04:22 AM

Very interesting decks ideas here. I have always been a fan of the Rack + pox decks.

Here's a budget list I'm using right now.

Hooky Poxy !

-Lands
18 Swamp
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Mishra's Factory

-Creatures
3 Tombstalker
2 Phyrexian totem

-Spells
4 Dark ritual
4 Duress
4 Innocent Blood
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 funeral charm
4 Smallpox
4 Pox
3 The Rack

-Sideboard
3 Infest
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Engineered Plague
3 Oppression
3 Rancid earth

I don't have thoughtseize because they are too costy right now... Also, I'm still debating the addition of Powder Keg because I often face Vial decks.

Tell me what you think of this deck and which addition you would suggest (think budget!) :wink:

clavio

02-26-2009, 08:09 AM

@bowvamp, how good is sundroplet in practice? I feel like it's only going to give you a few life points against dedicated aggro.

bowvamp

02-26-2009, 09:54 AM

Well, 1 sun droplet MD is there for decks like Landstill/MUC/ITF where you see alot of cards.

The 3 in the side are for pretty much anything not listed in my above section.

You may be forgetting that droplet essentially gives you two points of life a turn 1 in your upkeep, one in your opponent's.

clavio

02-26-2009, 01:20 PM

OOH, yeah I didn't notice that. If you get 2 it's basically GG.

bowvamp

02-26-2009, 06:31 PM

Maybe if you tried it, you would actually appreciate it. I am really tired of mentioning my personal tech on these boards.

Cut the sarcasm...

clavio

02-26-2009, 06:36 PM

I wasnt being sarcastic. I just ordered 4 sundroplets.

bowvamp

02-26-2009, 07:00 PM

Oh, lol!
I just have a huge head ache. No sleep/no coffee means one grumpy me!

EDIT:
Now with my head ache out of the way, I remembered one of the first foils I got! Do or Die!
It seems incredibly useful against tribal. I am currently testing 4 in the SB.
Another card that I'm testing is darkblast. It accelerates tombstalker and pecks off those annoying 1/1s at instant speed.

EDIT2:
Or I could side in funeral charm. That also solves the problem of having too little one drops for me!

eternaldarkness

03-05-2009, 11:08 AM

I've been playing this deck heavily the past few months. Here are my findings:

1. Any deck that can bring out a bunch of threats is a problem for us (Merfolk/Goblins). I'm thinking a sweeper in the board would work quite nicely. I'm partial to Infest+Engineered Plague in the side for the tribal decks, but would Damnation be a better fit? Problem with Damnation though is the whole 4cc + Pox dissynergy.

2. Threshold is a poor match-up. When facing Thresh, there are basically 3 scenarios: A) They get out a counterbalance, counter all our stuff and ride their goyf/goose to victory, B) They counter our removal and ride goyf/goose to victory or C) We blow them to kingdom come with pox et al., they cantrip into a threat and ride goyf/goose to victory.

I've been boarding more spot removal for threshold, but this still seems weak due to the fact that counterbalance is a serious kick in the nuts for us. I've been considering Shriekmaw as a way to get past balance but it still won't answer 'goose. Maybe Chalice set at 1 would also help but I haven't really tested it. Chalice would also help out against combo though.

3. Dragon Stompy remains a good match. I have yet to lose to it. Enchantress also seems to be pretty favored.

4. Aether Vial is a bitch. My current plan against vial is to abandon the LD plan altogether and go overboard on removal.

5. Standstill is also a bitch, but can be played around. My pox build makes use of 4 Factories and 4 Wastes, so there's a possibility that I can make them break their own standstill, depending on the match. Landstill is the worst case scenario as their entire deck is based around 'still. Its not easy facing eternal dragons+decrees while under standstill.

So how do you guys play against these decks? What are your game strategies/ boarding plans?

rleader

03-05-2009, 12:38 PM

1. I like 4 maindeck powderkegs. They do more than infest (and win game ones against "unwinnable" things) and they open up sideboard slots.

2. Extirpate "sucks," but it's an easy button vs. threshold.

3. Enchantress is harder to beat than you might think: they can win simply by stopping you from winning (and there's nothing you can do against the topdecked defense cards they pull up; e.g. Halo on Stalker) and you're more likely to be decked than them since they usually carry protection.

4. Don't have too much experience against any of the new tribal decks: I've only played with/against goblins and affinity in pox matchs. Again, powder keg does double duty and if goblins is making a comeback, then infest/plague is definitely in order. I've noticed that prices on piledriver/lackey have actually been slipping heavily lately, though, so I think the legacy writers have overhyped the comeback of goblins on a general scale, but that's just a guess from me, too.

5. It depends what landstill you are playing, but the match, in my experience, usually comes down to who can grab an extirpate first. The only spell worth breaking a turn two standstill by them is a turn three Crucible of Worlds by you (and if they try to counter it, YOU get the three cards). I've won several games with that play, which is, I think, the only correct one. OTOH, you just have to face the fact that Pox really is just a bad landstill deck so they have inevitability.

eternaldarkness

03-05-2009, 12:58 PM

I don't really know anyone IRL who plays enchantress. All of my experience with it is in playing against it online. I can't recall ever losing to an enchantress player, especially since Utopia Sprawl on a land is a favorite target of our LD...but I digress, MWS is not a good way to judge a match-up. The match-up really might be harder than I think it is.

The current tribal deck of choice is Merfolk. And to a lesser extent slivers. Several people in my area have started playing merfolk due to the ease of building it and relative strength of the archetype. Sadly, merfolk is not a good match for Pox. Powder keg is an option, though I think 4 might be too much. Three maindeck seems to be the max number of copies for me.

Can you elaborate some more on how extirpate is gg for Threshold? I'm assuming you mean that you use it to colorscrew Thresh. While this seems to be a reasonable strategy, it won't do anything to a threat already on the table. With this plan, it becomes a race between you getting off that extirpate on that dual and the Thresh player getting a threat; a race the thresh player will almost always win with 10+ cantrips. Extirpate seems a bit weak to me against Thresh.

rleader

03-05-2009, 01:49 PM

Three maindeck seems to be the max number of copies for me.

That's fair: I've just found that it's important to have instant speed removal. It helps to even stalemates to your advantage vs. landstill for instance.

Can you elaborate some more on how extirpate is gg for Threshold? I'm assuming you mean that you use it to colorscrew Thresh.

No, to try to remove top/balance/goyf off of your first discard. If you can remove one of the three, the balance of power obviously switches to you. I generally try to play aggressively vs. thresh in that I'll smallpox even before they play a creature: if you can keep taking things from them, they'll be less content to just sit around and try to go for the CB lock. Once thresh is into top decking mode, it loses much of its power (FoW turns off, for one thing), even though they can just get the goyf and ride it as you say. Just my experience though.

bowvamp

03-05-2009, 06:43 PM

The only thing worth breaking a turn two standstill by them is a turn three crucible of worlds (and if they try to counter it, YOU get the three cards)

If that was true, why do you think standstill is synergistic with FOW?
They let the trigger resolve (since it's on top of the stack) then FOW the crucible.

OTOH, you just have to face the fact that Pox really is just a bad landstill deck so they have inevitability.

Not exactly, pox is in fact a better MBC. Landstill cannot make the opponent kill their creature sacrifice their last land and discard their last card with only having to sac 1 land. Pox is trying to get the game down to equilibrium and barely wins or barely loses. If that doesn't happen, you aren't playing right. Pox does not need for it to be late game to get their threats out and therefor does not lose to time very often.

Due to the higher number of threats seen in thresh today, I wouldn't count on extirpate to eliminate them. My plan seems to end up being discard against them until they play a threat in which case I use my creature removal. They have worse top decks than you so LD isn't your best bet but it can be considered. If you manascrew them early you can pretty much lock them out of the game due to how low their land count is.

EDIT:
Oh yeah, here's what I've found from testing:
Do or Die is good enough to stay for tribal.
Darkblast often takes my threats to the grave when I dredge it. (not good)
The next card I'll test has got to be LD for thresh.

EDIT2:
Actually I found something better: Mindstab.
It 'solves' both your thresh and landstill MUs with the same card.
Both decks run low threat counts and like to have a ton of cards in their hand right?
You can get to turn 5 in most games, right?
Well Mindstab is good early game for it's suspend cost against thresh, and late game for huge CA against landstill. I'm not sure if it's counter productive with all the other discard tho.

rleader

03-05-2009, 10:17 PM

They let the trigger resolve (since it's on top of the stack) then FOW the crucible.

True, although not all players will do that. It's a lot easier for them to blow that move than it is for people to blow Demigod's trigger, for instance. Of course, you can't count on that, and if they play correctly, well, it's still probably your best move to go all in sooner than later as most landstill decks can't do that much with extra cards until later in the game. And your crucible will be all upside if it does stick. The longer you wait to crack it, the longer their manabase has time to turn those extra cards "on."

Not exactly, pox is in fact a better MBC. Landstill cannot make the opponent kill their creature sacrifice their last land and discard their last card with only having to sac 1 land.

Hey, I like to root for pox too. That's why I'm in this thread. It certainly costs less than landstill or team america to play. But I'm not for one second going to pretend it's a superior deck. Make that mistake (or play on MWS too often against opponents not bringing their A-game) and you get the 4x mox diamond lists and 4x bitterblossom lists you see here all to often. OTOH, I agree that it's a lot less stress never having to worry about going to time (unless you get matched against landstill, ironically).

Mokaod

03-06-2009, 01:06 PM

Hello guys,

I've played magic off and on for about 12 years now so have seen my share of decks and cards. I might have seen Pox perform a few times on tournaments i've been to but not sure. So I'm kind of new to Pox.

I wanted to play a new deck with a discard shell besides my Stiflenought and TES AN decks because my meta seems vulnerable to discard, TES AN is tricky due to a large amount of combo hate and stiflenought, well, let's say i've seen 12 stiflenought decks on my last 40+ man tournament...

Searching for new ideas on this forum I passed pox and started reading. I've always liked to play black due to the large amount of destroy effects and the often awesome art on the cards. When I saw the lists and tactics in the opening post I liked it alot. Especialy the symmetrical disrupt intrigues me. Because I think in my current meta and tournament environment this could be a powerhouse I've decided to build my MonoB Pox deck recently after testing some builds on MWS.

My list is pretty standard.

//Land
14x Swamp
4x Wasteland
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2x Mishra's Factory

//Creatures
3x Nether Spirit
4x Tombstalker

//Spells
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Duress
4x Innocent Blood
4x Sinkhole
4x Smallpox
3x Pox
3x Crucible of Worlds
4x Powder Keg

//SB
4x Engineered Plague
4x Infest
4x Leyline of the Void
3x Chalice of the Void

Didn't test SDT/fetch yet but am a bit reluctant to. Testing on MWS showed me threat density while topdecking was quite high and i'm affraid it slows me down due to a few less slots for disruption. Have had 2x Raven's Crime in also and although it is very nice with crucible in, I've dropped it in favor of more consistency in form of more 4of's. Also made me able to up the killcons a bit. Also didn't even try ritual after reading the whole thread here. I feel the odds are more against playing it.

Thinking about testing Nihilith since I have 2 and it looks as a promicing killcon able to semi-dodge pox and innocent blood. Would get those in for -1 stalker, -1 spirit. Suggestions here are appreciated. Have 4 idols and 2 totems available should you want to suggest a different setup.

The 2nd reason I'm posting here is because I've found a card which could work like a charm in this deck against fast aggro decks, while I've not found a post in this thread about the card so I guess it didn't pop up on the radar yet. If I've missed it I'm sorry hehe.

I'm thinking of subbing the Infests or Engineered Plagues in my SB with this card but would like your professional poxpinions on this card before i take this to tournaments to try my luck :cool: .

Hissing Miasma
BB1
Enchantment
Whenever a creature attacks you, its controller loses 1 life.

As far as i can see this card could work very well. The mana isn't the problem, since it fits in the 3 land strat and it doesn't get hit by pox or keg. It's loss of life which is hard to prevent. Imho the synergy with Pox itself is so good that pox seems to stop being a dead/suicide card against aggro. If you pox once or twice their life is on the low side. Attacking all out will hurt them probably as much as it hurts us or more due to our evasive recurring cannonfodder, so they have to be selective and conservative in attacking or in some cases even switch tactic to non aggro completely (like vial goblins goes burn). As a result less of the horde at the other side of the table will attack. Recurring cannonfodder ftw².

I used to play it in my BU T2-ish rogue deck. Often the opposing force came to a grinding halt when i managed to get one or two on the table while my force made sure the other player was low on life. I seriously stalled vial goblins with that card. The goblins couldn't attack anymore without killing the player. Rogues weren't good enough to beat them (seriously lower gear tempo wise) since they just switched to burn mode and blasted me to eternity, but the usefullness of Miasma was clear.

So experience and reading this thread leads me to thinking this card solves the dead pox problem against aggro which might not only sub one of the SB anti-aggro hate, but also revive the ritual? What do you guys think?

Thanks in advance for any suggestions and your thoughts. I'm realy sure I want to play this deck for a while, so any help will be appreciated.

Greets Mokaod

PS: I might have made an error here and there, but English isn't my native language. Please don't mind the mistakes.

bowvamp

03-06-2009, 06:51 PM

Ok, why the 3 pox? That's what makes our strategy work so well. Hissing Miasma doesn't look good on paper, but I'll try it no less.

My "fixes" for MD (what I've found works best):
-1 Swamp
-1 Wasteland
+1 Mishra's Factory
+1 Pox

And there you go, you've got the most generic pox list possible. From there you could cut threats or change discard whatever is better for you.

eternaldarkness

03-07-2009, 04:22 AM

Mokaod

03-07-2009, 04:43 AM

Hissing Miasma is not worth it. It's a three mana spell (hence at the very top of pox's curve) that doesn't impact the board in any way. Its ability to force a loss of life for each attacking creature is pretty much negligible since 9 times out of ten, the attacking player can just race Miasma. Imagine facing against a 5/6 Goyf or a 12/12 Dreadnought. In these scenarios Miasma is less than useless.

Even if an opponent has a bunch of creatures out, the presence of 8 lords in most tribal aggro decks ensures that Miasma can always be raced. I suggest run actual removal or sweepers instead of miasma.

I wanted to bring in Miasma against small to medium size creature aggro decks. Indeed, against a nought or goyf it's a waste of time, but against goblins, elves or merfolk i dont know. Those are the decks I was aiming at with the miasma. When we are fast on knocking down the lifecounters and draw these early enough it could work. We have the power MD'd to deal with the pumpers they play, and since we in general run more destroy than they have pumping lords or kings I thought it could work. This was my thoughtprocess behind suggesting the card.

But thanks for your reaction. You're probably spot on with this statement. Still I will run a 4 of in my SB while testing with a friend. He runs vial gobs and do want to see how miasma performs. Will report back if it has very positive effects on that MU.

I'll probs end with dropping em completely and keep running the infests/EP's. :)

also thanks for the suggestion on my MD. Although I agree on Pox, I've found I draw it too often in a 4 of, that's why I play 3. But I'll also try the MD change and see how that works.

Thanks for the help guys!

Greets Mokaod

Mokaod

03-07-2009, 05:02 AM

But isn't your Goyf/Nought comment invalid ED? Those are threats we deal with through other means (s/pox, blood). You will never bring in either EP or Infest against nought or goyf decks because they are not good against almost all those decks (except elf stompy laced with goyfs, for instance). So Miasma isn't a card I would side in either when playing against those decks.

Edit: And on the vial decks, I've experienced more often than not while testing the deck I was able to stop or severely slow down the decks in the first 5 to 6 turns with our hate. After that they get the upper hand because of the never stopping wave of new threats, but I feel like I can create a large enough window to play em. But I have to admit I only tested this deck on MWS untill now (thought magic was to complex for idiots to play it, seems i've been wrong on that one) so only met a few seasoned players. Might be the aggro decks i've played against are not like they should be. I even met a guy refusing to play against pox because "it's sub par and he wanted to play against a real deck". That was after I wrecked his complete hand and land with our disruption. Lmao.

Luckily I have vial gobs, RW gobs, thresh, dredge, staxx, eva white and protcolo in my meta, just didn't meet the players yet since I've finished Pox.

eternaldarkness

03-07-2009, 05:08 AM

Mokaod

03-07-2009, 05:27 AM

My point is against any creature with power > 1, Miasma pretty much sucks. It doesn't have to be goyf or dreadnought, though they are the most common examples. My point is that against any aggro deck, I'd much rather have actual removal than Miasma.

I just realised playing Miasma effectively against gobs means you need at least 2 online in turn 4-5 to make em effective. That means an almost certain inclusion of ritual, which causes us to loose a disruption slot MD or a cure slot in SB. That seems too far fetched to work. It requires a completely other playingstyle, so probably another deck to make it work.

I'll drop miasma hehe. Thanks!

eternaldarkness

03-07-2009, 06:09 AM

I actually use dark ritual in my build. I've always found it to be a rather good tempo card, combines quite well with Duress/Seize/Hymn and Crucible, helps fuel tombstalker and is great when you're low on lands. I've been seeing dark ritual/ no dark ritual builds posted here; what would be the advantages of decks without dark ritual? Does it actually improve the problem matches? (i.e. tribal aggro and thresh)

rleader

03-07-2009, 07:35 PM

what would be the advantages of decks without dark ritual? Does it actually improve the problem matches?

in brief, dark ritual is not about "tempo", it's about your sideboard. (Going Ritual> thoughtseize> hymn isn't necessarily the best move ever even though it can be effective.) The more two and three drop sideboard cards you use (plague/ trinisphere/ chalice of the void/etc.) in your board, the better Dark Ritual is in the main as it allows your sideboard cards to come online at devastating speeds. Since it would be stupid to put dark ritual in your sideboard, it goes in your main.

Since you'll probably only be dropping down maybe one land to make room for them, you're going to pay for it in consistency in long games, however, as you lose access to 2-3 other cards in your deck.

However, a rule of thumb that might simplify things:

Generally speaking, the more money your Pox deck is worth, the less likely dark ritual is a solid part of your game plan. If you own a Tabernacle, Chains of Mephistopheles, or Vindicates (+ manabase), you're not going to want to throw away a card just for more mana.

This holds true even for more average decks that have the full complement of wastelands/factories.

Budget Pox decks (with nothing but swamps) are usually best served by dark ritual as they lose the least by cutting into their land for a "tempo" boost. (20 land + 4 rit, etc.)

Gui

03-07-2009, 09:20 PM

IMO, this deck needs speed and advantage to stick to legacy decks.
First of all, i would run only 2 big pox, since it's not fast enough and it's hard to use right.
I can't see how someone can play this deck without using at least 3 Sensei's Divining Top MD. It's huge!
Reasons:
- You won't depend on topdeck: In this deck, depending on topdeck is SO usual. You use cards that kills cards and discard cards, and need to dig a kill condition too often. Divining top is huge and helps in almost every situation.
- You can abuse fetch lands: once your topdeck is terrible, fetch a land and be happy. It will help you when things are controled.
- It's a fast 1cc card that actually helps you out a lot. So manny times that I wish I had a better option than "land, go".

Last consideration is that tombstalker came as a great finisher and gives you another great reason to use 4 dark ritual, other than abusing 3cc or combination of 1cc+2cc cards, so, abuse it: 4 Dark Ritual.

Here's a very consistant decklist i've been working in:

6-pack by Guicpv
// Lands
3 [TE] Wasteland
2 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
1 [SOK] Tomb of Urami
11 [TSP] Swamp (4)
3 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
3 [FUT] Tombstalker
2 [MM] Nether Spirit

// Spells
2 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (1)
2 [REW] Powder Keg
4 [U] Sinkhole
2 [IA] Pox
4 [TSP] Smallpox
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [OD] Innocent Blood
2 [PY] Chimeric Idol
4 [US] Duress
4 [B] Dark Ritual

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [REW] Powder Keg
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [ON] Smother

Hope you enjoy.

eternaldarkness

03-08-2009, 03:57 AM

@ Sensei's Divining Top:
Sensei's Divining Top is pretty weak without actual shuffle effects. Without the ability to shuffle, it becomes a 2 mana "rearrange the top three cards of your library" spell, which is subpar. 3 Polluted Delta isn't enough to provide an adequate shuffle effect; most decks use 6-7.

That much fetchlands would warrant a splash however. I have tried Sensei's Divining Top with B/G pox and B/W pox and I agree, in those shells top can be quite powerful. It is a bit annoying though since top is mana hungry and this deck has a tendency to nuke its own lands. On the other hand, in a mono-black shell (the one this thread is trying to develop), top is pretty bad.

EDIT3: I'm also trying to fix the entire "relying on your topdeck" thing. Increasing the threat count helps. See below.

@ Powder Keg:
I've been playing 3x powder keg as rleader suggested, and I have to say, its been doing quite well so far. Its nice to have removal on the board that you don't need to worry about discarding/destroying whenever you pox/smallpox. I haven't had the chance to sweep an opposing board of merfolk with it, but I have managed to use it to answer goyfs in multiple match-ups.

@ My Testing:
I just played around 4 games against a moderately competitive ITF player. I managed to win 3 out of 4. Two of those games I won involved a counterbalance/top lock on the other side, but I managed to push through for the win using Factories, Tombstalker and Tomb of Urami + crucible (yes tomb of urami). Apparently, manlands and 8 mana demons laugh at counterbalance. The game I lost, my opponent managed to get a Life from the Loam + Volrath's Stronghold + eternal witness engine going. I'm now putting back those Tormod's Crypts back in the board (I'm not a fan of extirpate as rleader is).

@ Win Cons:
Now for Tomb of Urami. I think that this is a good card to pad the threat count. Currently most decks run around 8-10 win cons (tombstalker, Factory and Nether spirit being the most common). In a deck without any means to manipulate your draws, this is a mortal sin. I have punted many games due to the inability to find win cons in time. Therefore I suggest to add 1-2 Tombs of Urami over a few swamps. The idea is to use Tombs as an alternate win condition that doesn't take the slots for disruption. Here are the pros and cons:

Pros:
-5/5 flyer that helps increase the threat count
-doesn't take up disruption/spell slots
-can be used for mana as normal
-has synergy with Crucible

Cons:
-costs use 1 life per tap for mana (Urborg, tomb of Yawgmoth helps here)
-Wasteable
-requires 4 additional mana to activate (dark ritual + plus 24-25 lands help here)
-requires you to sac your entire land base

As you can see, that's a mighty list of cons. Hence, my use of Tomb of Urami has pretty much been conditional. In some games, you don't need/want to use tomb of urami. However, when Tomb of Urami shines, it really shines. Tomb of Urami is at its finest when you have crucible in play, your other threats have been answered and are pretty much in topdeck mode against your opponent; a very common place to be in. In this scenario, Tombs of Urami are tombstalkers 5-6 and allow you to seal the deal. Sometimes, you don't even need Crucible; its just there for insurance that if Urami gets removed, you can still recur your lands.

I believe that the ideal threat base for pox includes the following:
3-4 Tombstalker
3-4 Mishra's Factory
0-3 Nether Spirit
1-2 Tomb of Urami

My own list makes use of 4 Stalkers, 4 Factories, 0 Nether Spirits and 2 Uramis.

EDIT: I do not believe that either Nihilith or Chimeric Idol is any good in this deck. Idol is a three mana 3/3 and those stats really suck in Legacy right now. Furthermore, Idol has bad synergy with Factories, which I think is the superior choice due to their ability to recur with Crucible. Nihilith has a prohibitive suspend cost (2cc conflicts with turn 2 sink/hymn) and is a horrible top deck. I strongly suggest not to use either.

EDIT2: Gui, I think your running too few lands. 20 lands is too few to support pox.smallpox. In your build, I would aim for 22 since you only use 2 pox. In builds with 4 smallpox + 3-4 pox, 23 is the absolute minimum I would go while 24 would seem to be the right number. My suggestion, go -2 Chimeric Idol, +2 Mishra's Factories. You may also want to fit in a bunch of Urborgs.

Mokaod

03-08-2009, 08:10 AM

Gui, may I ask why you are playing Extirpate in your sb in stead of Tormod's Crypt or Leyline of the Void? Split Second (stackkilling)? Or something else? Less slots taken in SB because LotV almost always requires 4 of? If that is the case, why no Crypts? Ok, it knocks out cards from deck/hand if you're lucky enough to be able to still breathe after it going to gy (discard is the best case, it being played the worst), but is that realy needed in a deck which gets the opponent in topdeck mode so early?

Gui

03-08-2009, 12:27 PM

Replying,

@ Mokaod
I play 3 extirpate and 3 tormods SB, so, no use argueing.

@ eternaldarkness
Gonna go step by step answering, and will consider every option. But before i do that, i have to say that i like the deck build a lot since it has won me many matchs, so maybe i will go for emotional instead of reason. If I do, don't bother pointing it over. ;P

- Sensei's Divining Top
I didn't get if you are trying to say it's bad or if I shoul run more fetchs. I agree with the more fetchs issue. maybe 5. I wouldn't run more than 5, and I'll tell you why: Stifle.
Since this deck needs it's mana sources desesperatly, I try to skip all kinds of LD effects. It also comes to the splash issue. The splashed deck sucks against wasteland, and when I played the w and the g versions of the deck, 23 lands always seens little. The mono B version has got all it needs to be competitive, and that's why I don't splash. The manabase is too much critical without the need to worry about wastelands.

- Powder keg
Again, I agree. I play 2 kegs SB, and that's huge. In preboard match-ups, I just have to SDT a solution. 2 kegs are doing great so far, and you can modify whatever u think about it you are to face more decks that needs kegs as solutions.

- My testing
Been testing against UGW thresh, Eva green, Goobos, White stax and Landstill. The worst match-up (so far) was landstill, but mishra's and nether's are huge against landstill. the discard effects are also great. Dark ritual + keg first turn, when not countered, helps a lot too.

-Win cons
Urami never realy solved my problems. It's main idea was to be a win condition against landstill. Still, It's highly wasteable, so, i run 1 and just have find it someway.

Now, about Chimec Idol, I have under-estimated it a lot too. It helps a lot when you run innocent bloods, any poxes and dark rituals. It's huge in the deck and i would never cut it for a 4th stalker. maybe for spirit, but there again, spirit would be less effective with that much creatures.
I know mishra's is stronger if u manage to find a crucible, but mishra is wastable and it breaks both your manabase and your kill condition if so.

About the 20 lands, i've tryed that out so many times and i'm very satisfied with the results. Maybe I'll cut the urami, but thas minor... I think looking at the 3 topdeck cards, and being able to accelerate a draw is huge even without the shuffle effect. I see myself in advantage with it so many times that I would never cut the tops. It even helps the lands to keep comming. Maybe that, together with the monocolor fact, helped me keep playing 20 lands. Also, I dunno if I would play dark ritual in a splashed deck, and without ritual, u need more lands.

Considering all those, I would cut Urami for a fetch, a swamp for a fetch, keep the tops, i still believe in the 20 lands, but if I felt so, i could increase. Maybe i could find a room for the 3rd keg too, but i dislike cutting innocent blood for that.

EDIT (Replying your badmatchs up there)

I don't fell merfolk or gobbos as a real treat. Maybe thats just my postboard power, or maybe thats because my solutions disrupt then faster than they can go off... but i realy think 4 Eng. Plague SB solves that up for you.
If you are not playing dark ritual, maybe it'll be too heavy and slow though...

Thresh is a tread since balance is a bitch. in my case, i try to even the things by playing kegs, nether, and crucible as fast as I can, and try to discard then up at turn 1 and 2 when i can't be that fast. Although, extirpate and tormods deals with then cheerfully :)

Standstill seens to be the worse matchup, at least for me. Specially the Dreadstill version with lots of stifles and all collor solutions. Keg is a house in this matchup if they drop before SS, and so is crucible. Nether is great since you can drop it by 8+ cards in hand, and "can't" be countered first turn. Top gives you something to do while in SS control. When in SS control, I try to build up huge discard cards and as much lands as I can get, and rituals, in case i break the SS, i can have him discard good cards. Break it with ritual at EOT if he has 7 cards in hand.

bowvamp

03-08-2009, 05:47 PM

Ok, so I'll post my (team's) main list here. Not the discipline one. (you guys hate that one)

3 Wasteland
14 Swamp
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Nihilith
2 Tombstalker
2 Fulminator Mage
4 Pox
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Sun Droplet
3 Innocent Blood
4 Mindstab
1 Word of Command
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Chrome Mox
SB: 3 Sun Droplet
SB: 4 Powder Keg
SB: 4 Do or Die
SB: 1 Chains of Mephistopheles
SB: 3 Word of Command

I am really limited without showing you guys the list. Please help as I (my team included) seem to have hit a brick wall.

eternaldarkness

03-08-2009, 06:26 PM

Replying,
@ eternaldarkness
Gonna go step by step answering, and will consider every option. But before i do that, i have to say that i like the deck build a lot since it has won me many matchs, so maybe i will go for emotional instead of reason. If I do, don't bother pointing it over. ;P
No problem :D

- Sensei's Divining Top
I didn't get if you are trying to say it's bad or if I shoul run more fetchs. I agree with the more fetchs issue. maybe 5. I wouldn't run more than 5, and I'll tell you why: Stifle.
Since this deck needs it's mana sources desesperatly, I try to skip all kinds of LD effects. It also comes to the splash issue. The splashed deck sucks against wasteland, and when I played the w and the g versions of the deck, 23 lands always seens little. The mono B version has got all it needs to be competitive, and that's why I don't splash. The manabase is too much critical without the need to worry about wastelands.

Actually I'm suggesting you either increase the fetch count and splash or drop top and the fetches and just go with consistency (increase the number of 4-ofs in the deck). I agree that the splashed version loses out in mana stability but gains additional power and versatility. If you do go for the mono-black version, then I don't believe that Top warrants inclusion. Bottomline, top is weak without the shuffle. And running fetches in a mono-colored deck is just horrible.

- Powder keg
Again, I agree. I play 2 kegs SB, and that's huge. In preboard match-ups, I just have to SDT a solution. 2 kegs are doing great so far, and you can modify whatever u think about it you are to face more decks that needs kegs as solutions.
I've been using three main deck; I may adjust the numbers as I test with it more. I agree though. Keg is huge for this deck. Too bad it can't hit counterbalance...

- My testing
Been testing against UGW thresh, Eva green, Goobos, White stax and Landstill. The worst match-up (so far) was landstill, but mishra's and nether's are huge against landstill. the discard effects are also great. Dark ritual + keg first turn, when not countered, helps a lot too.
I agree, Landstill can be a problem. In my experience though, both the eva green and white stax match-ups depend heavily on the die roll + opening hands. Eva Green is a bit more difficult, but I believe White stax to be a favored match. Crucible obviously helps a lot here.

-Win cons
Urami never realy solved my problems. It's main idea was to be a win condition against landstill. Still, It's highly wasteable, so, i run 1 and just have find it someway.
Again, I agree. Its not a perfect solution, but in practice it helps somewhat to alleviate the problem. Until a better black manland is printed, I'll be using 2 copies in my list.

Chimeric Idols and 20 lands...
The problem with chimeric idol is that every other commonly played creature out there can out muscle it. A fully threshed mongoose is the same size as idol while costing only 1 mana. The lack of evasion is also a serious blow against it and means that most games Idol will be sitting useless while your opponent beats you with his 'goyf. The small size + lack of evasion means Idol will always lose the ground wars against other creatures.

Now, you can't really count on having the removal to make Idol good. I prefer threats that are good even if you don't have the removal (like tombstalker). Removal can be countered or you can actually fail to draw one in time.

20 lands is too few. I maintain that 22 is the absolute minimum for your deck.

Gui, I actually like your deck. We play a very similar list. My only beefs against it are the Tops and land count. If you go -2 Idol, -3 Top, +2 lands, +3 kegs, we would actually be playing very similar lists. (Though most pox lists are already very similar:rolleyes: )

EDIT (Replying your badmatchs up there)
I don't fell merfolk or gobbos as a real treat. Maybe thats just my postboard power, or maybe thats because my solutions disrupt then faster than they can go off... but i realy think 4 Eng. Plague SB solves that up for you.
If you are not playing dark ritual, maybe it'll be too heavy and slow though...
I actually do play 4x Ritual and 4x Engineered Plague. This might be enough for Goblins combined with Innocent Blood/smallpox but for merfolk/faeries/elves, it isn't. These decks always play 8 lords along with a redundant creature base. And against 8 +1/+1 effects, Plague is sorely lacking. In order for Plague to really do anything, you need to get at least two of them in play. Good luck finding 2 out of 4 cards in a deck with little card manipulation versus decks with permission/grips/fast clocks.

Now this isn't saying that Plague is weak. Plague is actually quite good against tribal decks. It just isn't the absolute wrecking ball it once was in these matches. It's best to pair Plague with some additional removal/ sweepers like Powder Keg. Currently I'm testing out 3x Darkblast in the side along with the 4 Plagues. I'm hoping that this plus the three kegs I have in the main will help against these tribal aggro decks.

Thresh is a tread since balance is a bitch. in my case, i try to even the things by playing kegs, nether, and crucible as fast as I can, and try to discard then up at turn 1 and 2 when i can't be that fast. Although, extirpate and tormods deals with then cheerfully :)
Again agreed on the part that 'balance is a bitch. Though to be fair, we aren't entirely defenseless against balance. Tombstalker, Pox, Crucible (most decks run only a few 3cc spells) are usually out of 'balance range while manlands can't be countered. Learning to play against 'balance also helps immensely.

Standstill seens to be the worse matchup, at least for me. Specially the Dreadstill version with lots of stifles and all collor solutions. Keg is a house in this matchup if they drop before SS, and so is crucible. Nether is great since you can drop it by 8+ cards in hand, and "can't" be countered first turn. Top gives you something to do while in SS control. When in SS control, I try to build up huge discard cards and as much lands as I can get, and rituals, in case i break the SS, i can have him discard good cards. Break it with ritual at EOT if he has 7 cards in hand.

Standstill is actually one of the three cards that I don't want to see across from me (Aether Vial and Life from the Loam being the other two). Among all the decks that actively play standstill, I would place Merfolk (also plays Vial) as the hardest followed by Landstill while Dreadstill is the easiest. I have won games against dreadstill...so long as they don't land a standstill. If they don't, then Dreadnoughts are walking two-for-ones for us thanks to all the removal we run.

My usual gameplan against standstill is to try to turn the tables on them with our own manlands/wastes/nether spirits. If I find that they have a better threat under standstill, then I either do the "cast an instant at end of their turn while at 7 cards" trick (not easy) or try to break standstill with pox/smallpox. If I'm not confident pox will resolve through their 'still, I break with some other disruption spell and follow with pox. Pox has the potential to remove any advantage they may get from drawing off standstill, though you do have to time it properly to get the maximum effect. We can also ignore standstill and go for the mana denial plan. They can't use all that card advantage if they can't cast a single spell right?

bowvamp

03-08-2009, 06:44 PM

I'll just throw in my thoughts anyways. Top isn't very good if you never really should have enough mana to play it if you're using your strategy to it's fullest.

IMHO, keg is a sideboard card at best.

Ok, I still am wondering what people think about my fav SB card for swarm in general: Do or Die. That answers gobbos and mermen pretty easily.

The best way to keep counterbalance from being a trouble is to concentrate on playing LD until they are at 2 lands. Then you can use hymns. Be lucky!

Standstill is pretty easy if you can get them into TD mode. Since all my discard is positive CA it is pretty easy.

eternaldarkness

03-08-2009, 07:07 PM

I'll just throw in my thoughts anyways. Top isn't very good if you never really should have enough mana to play it if you're using your strategy to it's fullest.
Top can be good if you have Loam/Crucible + shuffles. It's just subpar in the mono-black version. I would play it in B/G or B/W pox; never in mono-black.

IMHO, keg is a sideboard card at best.
I disagree. Keg can hit creatures and this alone makes it an acceptable main decked card. Since most of the time, Keg will be used to remove low cc creatures like goyfs, 'geese and 'noughts, the 'slowness' of the card really won't matter much. It can also answer Aether Vial, Grindstone, Tokens from Ichorid/Storm combo, The rack etc. At best, keg is a maindeck card.

Ok, I still am wondering what people think about my fav SB card for swarm in general: Do or Die. That answers gobbos and mermen pretty easily.
My gut tells me its bad. If they have only one creature out, its worse than Diabolic Edict. In fact, its dead against only one creature. That fact alone should be raising alarm bells in your head. Its really only good if your opponent has 4+ creatures in play. And even then you're still behind since you're leaving him with 2+ creatures to beat with. If I'm gonna sideboard a card to deal with creature swarms and I know I will be in a situation where I'll be facing 4+ creatures, then I would personally go for the cards that can kill all of them rather than just a few of them. Additionally, the fact that your opponent is the one who chooses which pile of creatures to sacrifice is also a downer. They will always choose to save the most relevant creature for the situation.

The best way to keep counterbalance from being a trouble is to concentrate on playing LD until they are at 2 lands. Then you can use hymns. Be lucky!
If your LD resolves through counterbalance.

Standstill is pretty easy if you can get them into TD mode. Since all my discard is positive CA it is pretty easy.
You are underestimating standstill. What if they go turn 2 standstill? if they pair that with a manland or a turn 1 Cursecatcher/Vial, then you're in big trouble. Even if they fail to get an early standstill and you succeed to get them into topdeck mode, you are still disadvantaged. If you get them into topdeck mode, then most likely you are also in topdeck mode. If they topdeck a standstill in this state, then you will simply lose to all of that card advantage. Scenarios like this, wherein both players are in topdeck mode with a neutral board state, is what Standstill decks capitalize on.

EDIT: Since I'm already responding to your comments, Sun Droplet is horrible. Its like a reverse Hissing Miasma. Always go for the card that can actually remove the threat instead of prolonging the inevitable.

bowvamp

03-08-2009, 07:24 PM

Umm, yeah I meant before the cb resolves. When it resolves you have to be even more lucky.

What standstill list runs cursecatcher/vial? Oh right you don't know the difference between merfolk and standstill.

I don't exactly try to get standstill to a neutral board state. That's the point of having all positive CA discard. I generally end up having 2 lands them having two lands, me having 2 cards in hand, them having none. Word of Command is tech vs. Standstill. Make them hardcast FOW on their own spell.

Although sun droplet doesn't remove THE threat, it is the best way to recover from one. It nullifies 2 power of there creatures. That makes it be actually good vs. manlands. Hissing Miasma costs 3 and tries to kill the opponent, doesn't heal you based on the damage but based on if they attack. Sun Droplet isn't just for creatures. You are forgetting about burn. A deck such as what you've maid your list out to be would absolutely fall down and DIE vs. burn.

Hmm, let me see... I have DoD in my board and only bring it out in decks that play 2+ creatures on the same turn. Diabolic Edict will always kill there worst creature as they once again choose which to sac. That means if they have 3 creatures out they will sac there worst one. But with DoD you separate their two worst into 1 pile and their best into another. If you see gobbos on one creature through the whole game through game 2, I commend you! ;)

Gui

03-08-2009, 07:26 PM

Some considerations: (fast now, because I don't have much time)

About urami, first sice it's easier, I shall keep one on my list as a alternate kill. would not use 2 since it reduces stability and deals unwanted dmg to myself. Those life points never seens too much, but they are.

About the chimeric, I run 2 of it, while i run 10 removals that kills both their and mine creatures... that's actually the mainline of the deck. it's synergy is great on that point, and the only other card that can be used in a similar way, attacking after a removal, is mishra. As a personal option, i prefer to run less mishras and keep mana base consistancy. I know goyf is bigger and stuff, but it'll be another option in board to deal those threats. And I doubt someone would waste a threshed goose against a chimeric. :tongue:

About this mod:
-3 Top, +2 lands, +3 kegs
It's actually: -3 Top, +2 lands, +1 kegs, right?
This comes to the divining top issue. I dunno if you have tryed it out, but I just can't play without then. Again, i have to say that i almost never got land screwed with this list... dunno if it's because of the tops or because of the drs, or maybe even because of the CotW
They:
- Fix draws
- Costs little and can be cast Turn 1 together with a 2cc card when you ritual, or even alone, to get you something later.
- Helps you a lot when both players got no cards in hand. I dunno for you, but this happens a lot with me. That's part of the deck strategy, since it discard both players, since it kills both players lands, and etc. It gives you this advantage, and can acelerate a draw for you, that can be game crushing sometimes.
I may try the Top-less version a bit. But i'm too highly favorable for it, coz it's real advantage to this kind of control deck.

@bowvamp
Keg is a house. no way it's just a sideboard. I carry 2 and yet consider carring 3~4.

Final considerations:
I think most pox players should consider the mono-color option. It's competitive and has great solutions. Anyway, if they don't, at least consider the Kegs and the dark rituals MD, which is the deck soul
My MVP cards for this deck are:

Dark Ritual
Duress
Hymn to tourach
Sinkhole
Powder Keg
Tombstalker
Nether Spirit and/or mishra's factory as secondary kills
Divining Top, regardless the dislike by ethernal darkness, since it gives me options which I like a lot :tongue:
Crucible, which is a great 2 of.

Most like, Sideboard options Always should cary:
4x Eng. Plague
Xx Tormod's
Xx Kegs, where X is the number of kegs missing on your list
I use smother to help against aggros, dunno your choices....
And Extirpate as an awsome card for a disruption deck.

eternaldarkness

03-08-2009, 07:48 PM

@Gui

I get where your coming from. We have subtle yet different takes on Pox and I'm guessing that's why we disagree on some card choices. For example, Pox needs at a bunch of black mana to function properly. My solution is to run more lands while using all 4 Factories; yours is to run less land but less factories to maintain the black source count.

Also, I don't dislike Top. I actually use it a lot in most of my decks. I just don't see it being good in the mono-black version.

Umm, yeah I meant before the cb resolves. When it resolves you have to be even more lucky.
Its really hard to lock out your opponent with LD when the threat you don't want to resolve costs 2.

What standstill list runs cursecatcher/vial? Oh right you don't know the difference between merfolk and standstill.
See merfolk. Currently DTB status. And cursecatcher/Vial are just examples. Imagine threat + standstill. The threat could be a mishra's factory, nantuko monastery, mutavault, a cycled decree of justice, Elspeth or in merfolk's case, a bunch of big, fat creatures.

I don't exactly try to get standstill to a neutral board state. That's the point of having all positive CA discard. I generally end up having 2 lands them having two lands, me having 2 cards in hand, them having none. Word of Command is tech vs. Standstill. Make them hardcast FOW on their own spell.
So you run multiple hymn variants? In your above scenario, if they topdeck a standstill, it is still bad for you.

Although sun droplet doesn't remove THE threat, it is the best way to recover from one. It nullifies 2 power of there creatures. That makes it be actually good vs. manlands. Hissing Miasma costs 3 and tries to kill the opponent, doesn't heal you based on the damage but based on if they attack. Sun Droplet isn't just for creatures. You are forgetting about burn. A deck such as what you've maid your list out to be would absolutely fall down and DIE vs. burn.
Again why nullify a threat when you can just answer it? Burn is and always will be a bad match for Pox. Luckily, burn isn't really dominating the meta right now. Those that are dominating the meta are decks where flat-out removal are better than sun droplet. Sun droplet will not answer Goyf, Tombstalker, Dreadnought. Against swarm decks, if they have a couple of lords, sun droplet is still bad. The fact that no other deck out there uses sun droplet despite the fact that its a colorless artifact should be a good sign that its an inherently weak card.

Sidenote: My plan against burn is to punt g1 and go -4 pox, +4 chalice in g2 and g3. Seemed to work in the last tourney I played in.

Hmm, let me see... I have DoD in my board and only bring it out in decks that play 2+ creatures on the same turn. Diabolic Edict will always kill there worst creature as they once again choose which to sac. That means if they have 3 creatures out they will sac there worst one. But with DoD you separate their two worst into 1 pile and their best into another. If you see gobbos on one creature through the whole game through game 2, I commend you! ;) Again, I haven't tested DoD so I'm basing all of my previous comments on gut instinct. It just seems that something that kills all of their creatures would be better as opposed to just some of them.

bowvamp

03-08-2009, 07:49 PM

@Gui: Lol, most everyone plays monocolored. I "carry" 4, just in my SB. It's really good vs. Threshold, and decks that run alot of the same cc creatures. I agree, it's a great card you just don't want to risk killing your own artifacts to use it. It's also antisynergy with chimeric idol/nether spirit/sun droplet. I generally either side this or sun droplet in.

Engineered Plague doesn't do much for me. Sorry.
Tormod's is not very useful quite often I find.
Smother is ok. I am pretty sure you already know my choices.
Extirpate may look awesome, but believe me, it sucks.

@eternal: Ok, I see where you're coming from. I really wish there was a 1B damnation. Too bad there isn't.
It is actually pretty easy to beat CB to the punch. See my in depth strategy against thresh.
It requires something like this:
T1:
Wasteland digging for cards if you don't have much hand destruction/LD/accel
or
Accel into LD
T2:
LD if possible
or
Hand Destruction
T3:
Ok, depending on what kind of accel you use you're either at 3 or four mana. Easily enough to play a threat.

eternaldarkness

03-08-2009, 07:54 PM

I agree with you on extirpate. Why hasn't Engineered Plague and tormod's crypt worked out for you? I'm genuinely curious...

bowvamp

03-08-2009, 08:02 PM

Thank you for your curiosity.
I guess that E. Plague is really good vs. Gobbos so I understand your POV.
But on the flip side, have you tried playing non-tribal decks that drop a flurry of creatures? Such as Sligh/D&T?
Crypts are ok. I guess it used to be worse than it is now. I might try them again. They just didn't hit enough decks imho back then. All that I ever could hit was ichorid/loam/make tarmogoyf slightly smaller. Is there anything I'm missing?

Gui

03-08-2009, 08:04 PM

bowvamp

03-08-2009, 08:10 PM

My list's on the bottom of page 40.

Gui

03-08-2009, 08:19 PM

My list's on the bottom of page 40.

I'll analyze and maybe test a few your list. IMO what it lacks most is Dark ritual. DR is a House!

eternaldarkness

03-09-2009, 09:56 AM

I admit bowvamp, I haven't really played extensively against nontribal aggro like Zoo or RDW. Engineered Plague, like I mentioned a while ago is no longer the wrecking ball it once was. Its good against goblins. But against Merfolk/Elves/8 lord tribals, it's a bit lacking. We need to pair it with some other removal for it to be really effective. This may take up valuable sideboard space.

@Gui
I think the problem with getting a unified list is that too many people are posting their lists without explaining their own meta and what decks they usually play against/ have trouble with. I think we need to run whatever pox list we come up with against an actual gauntlet (the DTB/DTW forum comes to mind). But to do that, we need to come up with a core list. This thread is really old so a lot of card choices from the first few pages may no longer be viable.

I have been thinking of getting a group of Pox players online and running a core list against specific decks so we can get a better idea of what needs to change to lift Pox from tier 2. I myself can pilot MUC, Team America, Eva Green and Threshold so we can test Pox lists against these decks. We're gonna need decent combo and aggro players though. We can post results here. Anyone up for it?

PS: Classes are about to end, so right now things are a bit hectic for me academics wise. My posting here is just me procrastinating. I will be free in a couple of weeks, though. You guys might want to get a headstart on the whole 'deciding on a core list' thing.

bowvamp

03-09-2009, 10:35 AM

I can do burn. I might be able to do other control, but I've never really tried ITF. I might be able to do tribal but mainly elves! I love combo like no tomorrow, but for legacy I don't personally own any of those combo chase rares like LED. Ok, I own 1 LED but that's for vintage. Oh and now that D-Stompy has t8ed at a large event I will definitely test that. Oh yeah and now that I think of it I can pilot belcher. So can pretty much anyone.

kilukru

03-09-2009, 11:36 AM

Since this thread seem to be back from the graves, ill post my the list I tested lately :

// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
2 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
3 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
13 [IA] Snow-Covered Swamp
4 [CS] Scrying Sheets

// Creatures
3 [FUT] Epochrasite
3 [FUT] Tombstalker

// Spells
2 [FNM] Duress
2 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (1)
4 [B] Sinkhole
4 [TSP] Smallpox
3 [5E] Pox
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
2 [TE] Diabolic Edict

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [TE] Diabolic Edict
SB: 4 [REW] Powder Keg
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 [ON] Infest

The biggest change from a standart list is the manabase here some explanation :

Mox Diamond : Allow 2 mana turn 1 and 3 turn 2, and survive pox effects

Scrying sheet/snow covered swamp : One of the biggest drawback of this deck was that he tended to run out of steam and is least than stellar on topdeck mode. The sheet+top allow you to have a pretty improved late game. Early game the sheet's are useless but can be dropped to mox.

Epochrasite : You got to try this guy, he's , in my opinion, better than the spirit or any other beater we have access too, if you havent already, give him a try.

Edict : i went with edict over innocent blood, not sure if it's a good call but worked ok so far

factory's : only 2, epoch is a much better beater than spirit, so factory is less impoprtant, work as a back-up

Mokaod

03-09-2009, 01:02 PM

I like extirpate as it can solve few problems and sometimes it removes victory from them... but maybe I should consider other options... I'm curious about your lists, maybe we could put then together to get better ideas? I would dig then up in the forum, but it seens hard work, and i'm sure you both have actual versions of it... what you say?

I asked you about Extirpate because of this reason, not to break open a discussion. I was genuinely interested in your reasons for running it in stead of the other cards I mentioned. I've got a couple of extirpate's lying around too and was evaluating them. Should you be able to present a valid reason why I should run em I would've tested them a bit longer.

But after another round of testing I have to agree on others here. Although Pox seems to be the best deck to abuse Extirpate, it just doesn't work. Feels like win more in every play I make with it and the cards I wanted to hit were sufficiently delt with by LotV imo.

@ Powderkeg
I love this card. Running 4 of in my MD. It has saved my arse so many times by blowing up vials and SDT's, or sweeping up the 2cc gobs or a bunch of tokens all at once. I wouldn't even dare to concider taking em out atm. Taking them out will maime our MD aggro dealing capability considerably imo. At max I'd cut back to 3 of to get Ravens Crime back in (meta-choice) but it feels ok like this.

Have been testing my list a lot this weekend. MD i won more than 50% against protcolo which runs the same counter shell as stiflenought. I'm not worried about control decks anymore as a result of this. It's very easy to disrupt them because almost anything we draw is a must counter for the deck. And it just doesn't run enough counters to deal with everything we've got. Btw, Always a lot of fun seeing their brains crack on if they should FoW the hymn or not lol.

Rb Vial Goblins are too much MD, as is Rw Vial Gobs (Rw is a little better though, Rb recurrs threats and packs more remedies against our beaters, which is a pain in the arse). But with 4x infest and 4x plague in SB the scale seriously tips to our side after board. Resolve of 2x Plague after sweeping with an infest is certain scoop for gobs. As a result I will never cut down those SB cards. 4x LotV 4x Infest 4x Plague are there to stay untill my meta changes (3 or 4 gob players around, and we'll probably see more merfolk and elf in the near future). Hit about 30% pre board, about 80% post board mainly due to the ability to play out plague fast. Didn't miss rituals to get them onto the board. Often when playing against gobs for instance, a plague in hand is MVP on the moment you can play em so it seemed it's not needed to be able to play Plague and another disrupt in the same turn. So still not running rits :O

Discard (Rack, Hippy) wasn't realy a match also. Lost some games due to mana screwage or bad draws. If threatcount stays high this is no problem at all. These games made me miss SDT a little, but I guess playing SDT will not realy change anything here since the DC player (if he knows what to do) knocks your selected draws out of your hand before you realise it.

Should anyone want to test the pox primer I can play my IRL Dreadstill and TES AN decks on MWS. But since I live in the Netherlands timeframe could be an issue. If you know when you will test let me know. I might be able to help.

Greets Mok

Mokaod

03-09-2009, 01:31 PM

Kilukru, just a little remark. In your list your SB misses 1 card. You forgot a card or are you running the deck like this? (I assume you know the 15 or 0 rule on SB so you've probably forgotten a card)

kilukru

03-09-2009, 01:41 PM

Yeah SB i still a work in progress, i just dinnt update the list corectly, my bad

Mokaod

03-09-2009, 01:44 PM

I'll analyze and maybe test a few your list. IMO what it lacks most is Dark ritual. DR is a House!

I run ritual-less and don't realy miss em. For them to be a house I miss em too little. Didn't realy have situations yet where ritual would make a gameturning play possible.

So to call em a House is a bit too much imo. It's a good card obviously, but not in this deck if you ask me.

bowvamp

03-09-2009, 07:21 PM

Ok, from some serious playtesting sessions I have found that the rule of No-Win-Mores applies to Word of Command. Word ta ya motha!

Gui

03-09-2009, 08:50 PM

I run ritual-less and don't realy miss em. For them to be a house I miss em too little. Didn't realy have situations yet where ritual would make a gameturning play possible.

So to call em a House is a bit too much imo. It's a good card obviously, but not in this deck if you ask me.

Since I don't know your list, I can't say much. All I can say is that the deck gets a lot faster with ritual, and I say that from my testing. Maybe you should try it out... I've tryed ritual-less versions and I always play at least 3. Ritual helps in lots of situations where you want to delay their game T1, and yet do some other stuff. Also, it gets you crucible t1 sometimes, making smallpox and pox a lot more useful. In the late game it's also quite common for it to help tombstalker #2 to enter. For those reasons I think dark ritual is a house. But again, that's just me...

I think the most important point on this topic is to find a way to do some serious testing together, to try to find a "raw" list for players that actually could run it on tourneys... then the deck may reach DTW. I can do some aggro like Eva Green and gobbos, and some aggro-control like thresh and CB. Not a good combo player, besides painter that is rather easy to play. I can run SI w/ Ad Nauseam, but can't guarantee the results before some testing...

EDIT: Answering Mok.

Should anyone want to test the pox primer I can play my IRL Dreadstill and TES AN decks on MWS. But since I live in the Netherlands timeframe could be an issue. If you know when you will test let me know. I might be able to help.

Greets Mok

Nice, some combo test would be great... I have not a very good idea on how this deck goes against TES... dunno a good TES player to test... Time to test is always an issue... we will have to exchange MSN's in order to meet each other... that may be done by PM if you all agree.

I think we should start by testing a list with greater common sense, even if it means (for me) to let few cards out (like tops and rituals)...
Ideas are welcome there.
My personal one would be:

// Lands
3 Wasteland
2 Tomb of Urami
14 Swamp
4 Mishra's Factory

// Creatures
3 Tombstalker
2 Nether Spirit

// Spells
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Powder Keg
4 Sinkhole
2 Pox
4 Smallpox
4 Innocent Blood
4 Duress
4 Dark Ritual

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Powder Keg
SB: 4 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 Engineered Plague
SB: 3 Infest
SB: (missing the card here)

Thoughts?

EDIT: Sorry about the double posts =/

bowvamp

03-09-2009, 10:13 PM

Gui

03-09-2009, 10:30 PM

Hmm, well shouldn't a "raw" decklist be a little more budget-friendly?

never mind that.

It isn't that people don't have a good decklist that isn't getting them into t8s. It's that they:
a) need better board cards
b) try splashing silly colors like green for goyf
c) forget about wasteland (especially those that comply with b)
d) don't fully playtest
that's why we aren't t8ing.

Probly that, plus the fact that they don't use it since it's not showing up anymore... I still think testing and results shall get pox back to torneys... Noone likes to play uncertain decks when a DTW has testing and results proved...

I think monoB list is the more budget I can go... Anyway, it's a testing raw, not a budget raw... to be used against tier decks...

bowvamp

03-09-2009, 11:06 PM

Pox is at tourneys. Just located primarily in Mexico.

rleader

03-10-2009, 12:59 AM

Nice, some combo test would be great... I have not a very good idea on how this deck goes against TES...

You can randomly steal game ones if they don't know what you're playing if they go turn 1 Warrens and you turn two powderkeg. This is part of the reason I advocate four (also stops zombie tokens from bridge from below) in the main deck. Pox really needs to gain unexpected momentum in certain matchups: that's part of the reason I've played two or three Extirpates in the main, even though I'm not quite brave enough to advocate it to the rest of the world. (I usually pull them for game two.)

Storm decks with multiple win patterns (usually Ill Gotten Gains/Ad Nauseam/sometimes Doomsday) are highly resiliant to discard: and since your Tombstalker doesn't come online that early, they have all the time in the world to topdeck something that can put them onto the IGG path which you're pretty much powerless to stop (unless you're packing Faery Macabre).

If you have a fair amount of combo in your meta (which really only happens to people who play with actual paper cards), I suggest running eva-green over pox. Goyf is an easier clock to set up, simply put, and you have more board options given you have more/better mana (like splashing white so you can chant back).

A couple rules:

play chalice of the void. Play it for zero. Don't get greedy and wait a turn in order to try to set it for one. That's win-more. Settle for turning off LED. 90% of the time it's the correct play IME. You can always find another chalice if you survive anyway.

Trinisphere is a house. You still have to keep them off of their mana though since they can Wish (at your eot) for WipeAway to play on their turn and then win. And you have to be beating down while keeping them off of mana. This can be difficult.

Trinisphere part two: If you can establish a wastelock, that's great, but wastelock without trinisphere out is fairly useless (as they only need one, somtimes zero, land to go off on certain win paths) and a crucible without trinisphere and wasteland is a horrible card to be holding in this matchup. Think hard about whether you want to keep crucibles post sideboard.

Fear Ill-Gotten Gains. Leyline of the void isn't that hot as a speed bump as it's just an easier to remove trinisphere that comes down sooner. IOW, the advantage is still all theirs. You wasting slots (and potentially mulligans) on Leyline just makes it easier for them to get away with other victory options.

bowvamp

03-10-2009, 01:06 AM

Pox can win pretty easily vs. combo. You just have to be super-aggressive. Hymn comes before sinkhole. Even Smallpox comes before sinkhole. You don't care how much of a disadvantage you're at just as long as they don't have cards in their hand.

rleader

03-10-2009, 02:14 AM

^ and then IGG crushes you anyway. There's nothing easy about the matchup and, imo, it's a disservice to imply that it is.

eternaldarkness

03-10-2009, 09:07 AM

Wow nice! Lots of comments! This thread is coming back to life. :smile:

Don't have the time to read through all of those posts right now. I have to cram my paper :frown: For testing purposes, in two weeks, time frame will be a non-issue for me since I have been known to stay awake until the wee hours of the morning.

And also for the record, I agree with everything rleader said concerning combo. Ill-gotten gains is like Legacy combo's yawgmoth's will. I play with 4 chalice side as hate and sometimes its still not enough.

Gui's list is actually pretty standard. I would personally play 4 Tombstalkers before any other win con and also I would try to squeeze in 2-3 Urborgs, Tomb of Yawgmoth over some swamps. I support using Gui's list as the testing standard.

EDIT: Read through some of the posts. It looks like Mokoad, Gui and bowvamp are on for the testing. If there are no objections over Gui's list maybe they can start testing and post the MWS logs here (logs would be better so we can criticize each other's plays). Other people can join in later if they're interested. Really sorry I can't help out right now.

Gui

03-10-2009, 09:34 AM

Well, If IGG crushes we up like that, maybe the sideboard should be:
// Sideboard
SB: 1 Powder Keg
SB: 4 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Engineered Plague
SB: 3 Infest
SB: 4 Leyline of the void OR Planar Void OR Chalice of the void

OR cut other things to play them together.

On the Stalker issue, maybe that's right, since it seens to be the most usual to try to abuse from it... I don't like playing 4 coz I think it requires too much effort to be played when there are 2 in hand at starter hand...
Urborgs may help, but never forget it can be a additional weakness against wastes... anyway, we shall go for -1 swamp -2 Nether +2 urborg, +1 Stalker and test...

bowvamp

03-10-2009, 09:39 AM

Lol, this is unbelievable! Lol @ TD IGG. They have 4 mana out somehow when they are TDing?

eternaldarkness

03-10-2009, 09:43 AM

Gui, check your PM. I can fire up MWS right now. Yay for procrastination.

bowvamp

03-10-2009, 09:44 AM

If anyone wants to play, I'm LULZ.

eternaldarkness

03-10-2009, 09:51 AM

I'm on MWS right now. I'm using my source name with a "private" for the game tag. Use your source name.

rleader

03-10-2009, 07:01 PM

Lol, this is unbelievable! Lol @ TD IGG. They have 4 mana out somehow when they are TDing?

Yeah, because you can always strip their entire hand every turn for five or six turns while somehow trying to actually win yourself. It's not that hard to have a ritual or a wish when you tap out to play tombstalker.

Really, your attitude here is a bit over the top.

claudio.r

03-10-2009, 07:27 PM

I'm really thinking about sleeving up a pox deck and give it a try. So, besisdes, pox, smallpox, hymn and tombstalker, what are the absolute "haves" for this deck ?

Also, how's the matchup against burn ?

bowvamp

03-10-2009, 08:55 PM

IMHO burn is our worst MU.

The other "haves" are:
Your list should have at least 6 cards that can (even on a 10 turn clock) win you the game.
Your list should have innocent blood or, if you favor it, that new CNF version of it.
It is useful to pick up some Powder Kegs whether it is MB or SB your deck will always use them.
Crucibles, Factories, Wastelands, and Urborgs are widely useful staples and are pretty much a necessity.

@ rleader: I don't want a flame war. Maybe you're poxically challenged as far as beating combo goes, but that's not my problem.

clavio

03-11-2009, 12:20 PM

Went to GP. Played pox. Went 6-3 which was good enough for 264th.

12 swamp
4 mishra's factory
4 wasteland
4 urborg tomb of yawgmoth
2 tomb of urami

2 tombstalker

4 duress
4 thoughtseize
4 hymn to tourach
3 the rack
3 crucible of worlds
4 innocent blood
4 pox
4 smallpox
2 raven's crime
1 sun droplet

sb
4 damnation
4 null rod
3 sun droplet
4 leyline of the void

Once again I want to point out the rack is really really good. There are some changes that I'd make, but this list is probably a good starting point. Probably going to drop raven's crime since it never mattered in any of my nine matches.

kilukru

03-11-2009, 01:54 PM

@clavio : How did Null rod worked for you?I see the card being playable with all the vial's, LED petal affinity running around but is it really viable?

How about sun droplet, the card look pretty good in theory but how did it played out?

bowvamp

03-12-2009, 12:04 AM

How did 4 urborg go? Ever find 2-3 in your hand w/o pox/smallpox?

clavio

03-12-2009, 12:17 AM

Null rod is sick! I almost want to run it main deck. I lost game one to belcher because of turn one ETW, game 2 and 3 were no contest thanks to Null Rod.

Sun Droplet helped me win a match against bitter blossom. I never faced burn at gp, but in testing I'd say its the best option. The throw some discard at them, drop sun droplet, drop rack/tombstalker plan seems to be the best plan against burn. Still kind of a hellish matchup.

As far as 4 urborg: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=294316&postcount=20

You need to hit triple black, and with only 18 lands producing black without urborg I think it's absolutely necessary. Plus it makes tomb of urami not hurt you. Also you can legend rule fuck if necessary to make an early tombstalker.

bowvamp

03-12-2009, 12:37 AM

Well, considering that 1 Urborg on the field makes it so you don't have to worry about needing anything else, yes I do think that 4 Urborg is overkill. I'd run this as the closest thing to your list that I see feasible:
14 swamp
4 mishra's factory
4 wasteland
3 urborg tomb of yawgmoth

3 tombstalker

4 duress
4 thoughtseize
4 hymn to tourach
3 the rack
3 crucible of worlds
4 innocent blood
4 pox
4 smallpox
2 raven's crime
1 sun droplet

That's just me, and the deck looks great to begin with!

clavio

03-12-2009, 08:10 AM

Probably dropping raven's crime. Not sure for what yet, they've just been really underwhelming in testing. 3 tombstalker is probably the right amount.

No Tomb of Urami? The thing is sick under standstill.

tylerwylie

03-12-2009, 04:12 PM

I ran this at GP Chicago, went 3-3... I started off 3-0 beating Burn, ANT, and Counterbalance, then lost a CLOSE match with Team America, and then versus Aggro Loam losing game 1, lost to double Bitterblossom game 2. Match 6 I lost to Landstill, with poor draws but a decent showing.

4x Tombstalker
3x Chimeric Idol
2x Nether Spirit

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Mox Diamond
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Sinkhole
4x Vindicate
4x Smallpox
4x Pox

4x Wasteland
3x Polluted Delta
3x Bloodstained Mire
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Scrubland
8x Swamp

Sideboard:
4x Reanimate
4x Leyline of the Void
4x Engineered Plague
3x Extirpate

Maindeck Chalice was probably the best call to make in this meta. I think I could've had games 4 and 5 if I had better card choice on my sideboard, however I did Reanimate a few Tarmagoyfs to kill my opponents with them.

What happened against Team America and Aggro Loam was it went down into topdeck mode, and they drew Tombstalkers/Goyfs before I drew my threats. I think there might be something I need to add to this deck in order to own the topdecks more, maybe 3x Sensei Diving Top's or some form of draw.

Other than that, I am very very happy with my build.

bowvamp

03-12-2009, 06:56 PM

Gui

03-13-2009, 02:25 PM

Ok, just wondering but how in the world did you beat Burn with a deck running fetches? You run 24 lands and 4 mox diamond? Wouldn't it just be better to run chrome mox? How did reanimate/extirpate go? How did vindicate work for you?

The best way to beat burn is tourach, duress, pox and smallpox the faster you can, and LD as second priority... if you get luck, they will splash some color and you can waste their lands too... burn is a problematic matchup if you have no much tourachs... dunno a good SB call against burn...

bowvamp

03-13-2009, 02:45 PM

Ok, I think that the pain should be spread around a bit more. Rather than critiquing others's lists, I'll let you critique mine! Just say anything that comes to mind off the top of your head.
3 Wasteland
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Mishra's Factory
14 Swamp
3 Nihilith
2 Tombstalker
2 Fulminator Mage
4 Pox
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Innocent Blood
4 Mindstab
4 Chrome Mox
3 Crucible of Worlds
SB: 4 Powder Keg
SB: 4 Do or Die
SB: 4 Chains of Mephistopheles
SB: 3 Sun Droplet

EDIT: W00t! my 199th post!

tylerwylie

03-13-2009, 03:50 PM

Ok, just wondering but how in the world did you beat Burn with a deck running fetches? You run 24 lands and 4 mox diamond? Wouldn't it just be better to run chrome mox? How did reanimate/extirpate go? How did vindicate work for you?

Chrome Mox might be better, however it was a tough call. Vindicate was MVP, Reanimate won me a game against Counterbalance, and I beat Burn with maindeck Chalice and blowing up lands.

Gui

03-13-2009, 06:45 PM

Chrome Mox might be better, however it was a tough call. Vindicate was MVP, Reanimate won me a game against Counterbalance, and I beat Burn with maindeck Chalice and blowing up lands.

Yeah, i can see reanimate reviving goyfs around many matches... maybe better option then infest? maybe no that close?

Now this is a fact: chalice should be at least side to beat decks like burn and combos... we can easly side our curve to 2~3 and get our 1cc cards off so we don't have to worry about playing it @1... That shall deal with burn g2 and 3, and if that's the case, but i don't think it is, it can be MD...

I prefer Top MD to give you stability on draws, since this decks relys too much on topdecking cards... Been testing with and without versions, and I shall say it helps a lot. And in games that you need chalice, take then out to bring chalice...

This is what i've been using as sideboard, considering a 2keg MD version:

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [REW] Powder Keg
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 [ON] Infest

Still have to test against some huge decks: Landstill, AN based combos, Burn aggro...
My tests so far were against Eva green, which is a rather favorable match, UGw thresh, which is a hard game, but can be 40-60, and depends a lot on who starts, and Team America, which is favorable due to their lack of threats, i say 60-40.

eternaldarkness

03-15-2009, 10:57 AM

Glad to know Pox was present at the GP!

A few days ago, Gui and I tested the TA match (him Pox, me TA). I used a standard TA list and he used the list he posted a few pages back when we were discussing core cards.

He won first game, I won the second and third games. All games were played with main only. In all three games, it was really close. First game, Gui just blew me out, answered all of my threats and forced the game to go into a topdeck war. Later, he managed to land a tombstalker. A threat that is a huge problem for TA if we can get it through countermagic. Second and third games, powder kegs kept me from casting tarmogoyf while Gui attempted to destroy my lands and hand. I managed to keep a goyf in hand/ topdecked into more goyfs until I topdecked a stifle to answer keg.

A few thoughts:

1. The games were all really close; it usually involved Gui absolutely destroying my hand+board and us attempting to topdeck threats. TA has better library manipulation in the form of cantrips, meaning TA has the advantage in a topdeck war. But Pox has more removal. As the TA player, I was a bit concerned that Gui would just run me ut of threats with all the removal he runs. Between Innocent Blood, Pox, Smallpox and Powder Keg, this was a very real possibility.

2. TA's manabase is a very real weakness. Second game game Gui managed to keep me off double black; which sucks for TA because now TA can't Sinkhole or cast tombstalker. In one game, I cracked a fetch looking for that second black...only to realize that Gui had destroyed all of my black sources. However, an Urborg from Gui (I recall he also needed the double black) saved me, telling us that Urborg can also be a disadvantage. I believe that if we have at least two black sources in play and we are not anticipating to cast Pox, Urborg should be kept in hand or sacrificed/discarded to Pox effects.

3. Powder Keg is a bit good. It kept me from casting Goyf for several turns. But it extremely sucks against Stifle. I would board it out against TA for real removal.

4. This game made me question the need for Innocent Blood. Blood is a bit weak if your build runs 3-4 Tombstalkers. In all three games, Gui would land a tombstalker while I would answer with a stalker of my own. I knew Gui had Innocent Blood in hand (thanks to thoughtseize). If that Blood was a Diabolic Edict instead, I would have easily lost. Edict would also shine against stuff like Dreadstill, Dread Stalker, Natural Order --> Progenitus (to a lesser extent) or against any match where the opponent can race Tombstalker with a single huge creature.

Should Edict replace Innocent Blood in a build with 3-4 Stalkers?

Gui's estimate of 60-40 sounds right. Though I believe that is only true if we run the full complement of 4 Pox+4 Smallpox+4 Innocent Blood/Edict+Kegs. Redundant removal is our best bet against threat low, cantrip heavy decks like TA or Threshold.

@Clavio: I'm intrigued with your Rack build. Not so much for the single Sun Droplet main (see a few pages back). In a deck with so few to zero ways to manipulate your library, I don't think you can count on drawing that single Sun droplet in time to save you. Sun droplets side is a bit intriguing since its the only way Pox has to answer Bitterblossom, an enchantment that has been giving me headaches on MWS. It still seems to me that Droplet should only be used if you are sure that a tourney will contain large amounts of 'blossom + cheap weenies. I don't think the Legacy meta has shifted that much and like I said previously, actual removal is better against weenies. I would cut the sun droplet main for a 3rd Stalker or a fourth Rack.

Now on to Rack! I like how the Rack is a 1cc threat, I like how you can just run it out there and not have it interfere too much with your curve. The rack is also pretty good against Thresh, TA, Eva Green and other decks which lack a way to mass draw cards. I like how it bumps the threat count. Paired with Raven's Crime, it makes for a very good win con.

On the 4 Urborg subject, I myself personally use 4 of the legendary land. Pox is a very black mana hungry deck. Having additional pseudo-black mana sources in the form of wastes+factories with an Urborg in play is an absolute godsend. Many games, you will want to keep an Urborg + Factory as your only lands after Poxing in order to apply pressure to your opponent while at the same time have enough mana to cast topdecked spells (such as, say, a tombstalker?). Urborg also allows you to keep outrageous hands but with no other black mana source. (5 businiess spells, urborg+factory). Sometimes, keeping Urborg as your only black source is suicide if your opponent wastes Urborg. I believe it is a calculated risk and knowing when to anticipate Waste/LD to answer Urborg is necessary to make the legendary land worth running.

Also keep in mind that 4 copies can be a benefit. While, additional Urborgs can always be sacced to Pox/Smallpox, it can also help fuel tombstalker. Especially if the first one gets removed and you are 'graveyard light'. Tapping Urborg for mana and then playing a second Urborg to jack up the number of cards in my graveyard is quite a common play for me. In addition, 4 Urborgs allow you to get rid of the land whenever it becomes more of a disadvantage; for example when your opponent is low on black sources and getting your Urborg out of the table will color screw him.

bowvamp

03-15-2009, 05:15 PM

Ok, why do you need innocent blood if you can just swing with your stalker? If he blocks you got a free innocent blood and if he doesn't you cast innocent blood and accept the card disadvantage in exchange for 5 damage to the head and destroying an opponent's threat. How would running 4 Urborgs color screw your opponent more often than running 3? Just think about it... do you have higher odds of getting 2 Urborgs with four in your deck or getting 0 with three in your deck...

Running 3 Stalkers seems to make opponents be more likely to board in GY hate. This can be good, but it is mostly bad. GY hate cancels out Crucibles, Stalkers, and in some builds the reanimates that you boarded in. That is why I run 3 Nihilith (which has the same clock as stalker, if not a better one) and 2 Stalker.

What are your thoughts on Mindstab?

I really liked your MU analysis vs. TA btw!

AcidFiend

03-15-2009, 07:52 PM

Hi,

I haven't posted in this thread before, but I've read it all and just wanted to share my list. Its a more budget focused list as I don't have Sinkholes.

4 Duress
4 Innocent Blood
4 Dark Ritual
3 The Rack
4 Smallpox
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smother
3 Tombstalker
4 Pox
3 Powder Keg
17 Swamp
2 Urborg
4 Wasteland

The main differences are The Rack, which people either like or they don't (I love it), and Smother. Smother to me is a no-brainer. Ruins Tamogoyf (which is rampant at the moment), Terravore, Faeries, Mongrels, Goblins, Dreadnought; its just wicked. Onlthing it can't get are Mongoose & Argothian, for which you have Innocent/Pox/Smallpox/Keg.

This deck is great fun to play and cheap too :)

bowvamp

03-15-2009, 08:33 PM

AcidFiend

03-15-2009, 11:34 PM

Umm, well first off I'd ditch Smother. It will hurt you in the long run to have no answer to 'Stalker or big beaters with a high CMC. If you want something even better than smother, try Diabolic Edict. Ciao.

Errr.. did you even read my post or just the list? No it doesn't beat high casting cost creatures, but I have 11-12 other sacrifice effects. Its not as you say 'my only answer'. Smother is very strong in this Meta. Edict is not as good versus popular weenie decks like Faerie/Goblins, where they ditch tokens instead.

Today I was playing a Rock deck at my local store. He had 2 birds and a Doran. Smother works where sac effects don't. Smother can also take out a creature that has an equipped Jitte before it gets counters, and is even more devastating when you kill their manland.

Of the top 8 in Chicago, here are all the Smother targets:
-Mesmeric Fiend
-'Goyf (in 6 of top 8)
-Dark Confidant (in 3 of top 8)
-Hypnotic Spectre
-Nantuko Shade
-Trygon Predator
-Trinket Mage
-Grim Lavamancer
-Kird Ape
-Wild Nacatl
-Vexing Shusher
-Magus of the Moon
-Taurean Mauler

Other notable targets:
-Doran
-Piledriver
-Warchief
-Mongrel
-Any small faerie
-Any goblin bar War-Marshal
-All Manlands

Smother can't hit:
-Tombstalker
-Sower of Temptation
-Nimble
-Rakdos (only in 1 deck)
-Arc-Slogger (only in 1 deck)
-Gathan Raiders (only in 1 deck)

So its dead vs. Storm (as Edict would be also), and is semi-usable against Dragons. Everything else its the sweetness against. I realise Edict can hit a Manland if its their only creature, but again thats conditional. If you prefer Edict thats fine, I wouldn't write off Smother that quickly though :)

bowvamp

03-16-2009, 12:21 AM

Where did I say it was your only answer? I was just trying to help you get a better deck. As you say, you've got a bunch of other sac effects so I:
a) Suggested a better version of smother that is one mana less.
b) Suggested Edict which is just another sacrifice effect.

Dragons?

What exactly is your meta? I mean if you are worried about mass creatures making Edict suboptimal, why not DoD?

Gui

03-16-2009, 05:50 PM

On the Innocent blood, smother and edict issue:

It's hard to say which one is better. Smother is more accurate, but sometimes it doesn't work. Innocent is low cost, which also means fast, and decent in a deck which advantage is made by sac... it's like a mini-smallpox, so it fits the deck style, and you should be ready to sac your own things on the deck style (That's why the deck run manlands, nethers, chimeric when it runs them)... Edict is great, but inacurate and not that fast, but it's a huge removal when it comes to TA and decks that run few treats... Yet, we have some other treat removals to be considered: Pox (for those who runs it), Smallpox, Kegs and whatever else... Innocent blood isn't as bad as it seens when you are able to use it's advantage and it skips easier from a daze, since it's low cost... Maybe we shoud run a combination of removals, but there again, we would be reducing our chance to use them, and that means less consistancy. I know Smallpox has the same effect as innocent, but innocent is faster, can fit a dark ritual with some other solution.

So, my conclusion on all that: We should keep the Innocent to deal with fast treats, since we are a slow deck (control is slow), and maybe run +2~3 smother/edict in the list to deal with late game finishers... Then I would prefer to run 4 innocent and 2 edicts, since late game finishers looks more like to come alone and be huge.
All that, plus running a fair amount of Crucibles, Nethers and stuff that are not afraid of Pox, Smallpox and Innocent blood.
Nether, IMO, is the advantage of the deck, since it "can't be countered", is not afraid of those 3, and can block goyf/goose endless (while there's no other creature in your grave)

Thoughts?

bowvamp

03-16-2009, 06:42 PM

Dude, Gui he's keeping innocent blood either way if I'm not mistaken.

Gui

03-16-2009, 07:51 PM

Got a thought I would like to share:
Been thinking on the whole control style of the deck, and the addiction of tombstalker, sometimes even replacing nether as the only creature kill, and start wondering: can the deck be built as a aggro-control type?
Started thinking about it when trying to insert 4 Nether Spirit together with 4 Tombstalker, play using all 4 mishra and with the crucibles. And could use racks too. An Aggro Rack Pox
That, added to 4 pox+smallpox seems to get the deck speed to kill faster while at the same time, controls the opponent by delaying him...
Sure it just a raw idea, but it could be an option... since it seems that everyone prefer more tombstalkers then adding nethers...
My idea on running 4 nether + 4 tombstalkers also resulted on thinking about relic of progenitus maindeck to get nether back and be useful against so many decks that uses the grave, such as thresh and loams...

Whoever read this, don't forget reading previous post, and again,
Thoughts?
=)

EDIT
This is something like the list I was wondering about when thinking of an aggro pox
// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
12 [TSP] Swamp (4)
3 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tombstalker
4 [MM] Nether Spirit

// Spells
3 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (1)
2 [IA] Pox
4 [TSP] Smallpox
4 [OD] Innocent Blood
4 [US] Duress
4 [B] Dark Ritual
4 [TSB] The Rack

Tested it 4 times against GP winner deck, since CB+top is a hard matchup, and it made a decent 3-1, with a win on the draw... Not even close to a definite list, but it's a decent start
Still can have mana issues fixed, maybe it should run sinkholes, and could eventually run relic of progenitus...

AcidFiend

03-17-2009, 02:57 AM

Gui

03-17-2009, 10:04 AM

I don't really like Netherspirit, I prefer to use my early turns disrupting them, and as time goes on NS gets weaker. Yes Tombstalker can delve to help it come back but its conditional.

I too felt my threat count was too low, and have been testing:
4 Stalker
4 Rack
1 Phyrexian Totem
1 Chimeric Idol

Totem and Idol can work together whereas double of either is weaker IMO. With the amount of discard in the deck I always want a Rack, and I've never been unhappy to see 'Stalker - adding a fourth allows you to more easily sac one if forced to.

Well, the whole point on nether is it's advantage in many situations for the deck:
- It comes back to be an endless defensive creature (regardless the stp problem and the 2 creatures issue);
- It can be discarded from a smallpox, so it's not cast at all (more like card advantage here);
- It may even be countered, but will come back anyway (most of the time);
- It can be sacrificed to innocent and to smallpox, and that may save stalker from death that way too;

Those are the advantages, but of course, the disadvantages:
- It's not strong, so it takes long time to kill;
- You will have to figure out a way to keep only one in the grave;

Imo, the problem of not being strong enough is overtaken by it's advantages... You can have more kills, have it as an alternate kill and use it with all it's advantages to the deck. Actually, what I personally like most on it, is going through counters and CBs, giving the deck more stability. Of course, it's not easy to play with a control deck that takes too long to kill, but some decks kills by using manlands only... Nether is an excelent alternative kill for the deck and I think it should be used.
The original pox lists used to run 4 Pox, so nether could take less time to kill. Even though the format can handle those poxes with counters, and it's a 3cc card, being slow, maybe that's an issue to be thought: 4 Nethers + 4 Poxes? 2 Nether and 2 Poxes? 0 Nethers and X Poxes? What's deck mainline? Should it try to abuse pox or should it abuse Stalker and other kills rather then those?
It comes somehow to the previous post, where I suggest an aggro-like pox, with 12~16 kills, and probably abusing pox a little more too.

eternaldarkness

03-20-2009, 10:03 AM

On the Urborg subject: Running four would allow you to nuke your own Urborg with a second one more often if that urborg is providing your opponent with black mana.

On the Editc/Smother/Innocent Blood: I personally prefer Edict and would rate the removal in order of: Edict>Blood>Smother. I run 4 Stalkers and have run into numerous cases where I needed to kill a creature but had a Stalker out. Smother is more of a sideboard card since most of the time you want an edict/blood effect. Smother is still good (in the side) because it provides you with targetted removal; something which the deck sorely lacks.

On the aggro-control topic: I have actually been thinking along those same lines Gui. This deck wants more wincons, hence become more aggroish. Problem is, if we go overboard on the aggro part, we are basically running a bad Eva Green variant. In this case, just ditching the Pox/smallpox for Eva Green creatures would be better.

Gui's take on 4 Spirit+4Stalker is...interesting. I don't really think a mere 2/2 is aggro enough. Spirit is more of a utility card that functions as a blocker/beater in Pox. It serves more to break pox symmetry and act as a recurrable defender than an attacker per se. I think maxing out on the copies of Nether Spirit is the wrong way to put more aggro in Pox. All of the advantages pointed out by Gui above can easily be attained with just 2 copies of Spirit. Going up to four will not increase these advantages (and can even be detrimental if 2 spirits end up in the yard) and will not increase our ability to go aggro.

I have actually been thinking on the Rack as suggested by Clavio. I believe the Rack can prove to be the 'aggro' card we are looking for. It exerts pressure on the opponent while being a bit difficult to remove. It slips right underneath our curve and pretty much shines against other black-based disruption decks (Eva Green and Deadguy). My question to Clavio (since I have been unable to play this deck with Rack for a couple of weeks now) is whether Raven's Crime is a necessity when running the Rack. Against decks with mass draw (standstill, FoF, Ancestral Visions), Crime would be a necessity. But there is a whole field of decks out there which only run cantrips, going for card selection over actual card draw. Against these decks, Crime would be redundant, right? Initial thoughts are pointing me to just put Crime in the side.

Gui

03-20-2009, 07:45 PM

Nice, I though post were to die again =P

Wel, I aggre with Ethernal's sugertion that nether loses it's advantage when you run 4, but it's still a beater anyway, and you can sometimes use tombstalker's ability to remove one and get another... The sugestion of 4 nether was not to be taken as main beater, but as a useful card that can help you beating while you wait for the big one which would be tombstalker. I'm just saying that after including 4-of mishra, stalker, rack, and maybe even chimeric (trying to abuse pox and blood better way possible), together with the crucibles that would also can result in wasteland lock, the next card that can try to abuse the situation is nether spirit... If it is to be an aggressive pox, I think we should run 4 of it and try to play the best way possible with it... And it comes to my attention also that the best card removal they'll have will be swords to plowshares, that removes it from game instead of grave. All we have to do i put as much nether as we can in play, and try not to be surprised by some burn stuff that puts 2 of it into the grave...
Also, I don't think relic ofprogenitus is a bad idea at all in the MD... I know it decreases deck consistancy, but many decks uses grave cards to get advantage... maybe 2 progenitus...
I'm not saying all that is precisely right, just saying it's worth of a trying... even if it's not to use the 4 nether, maybe 2, even 3 should be fine...

About edict, I fell like the deck is not looking at pox abuse by not using innocent blood... innocent is like the smallpox 5 to 8 when it comes to killing creatures, and it's faster... I personally like abusing innocent, but agree that edict works better... IMO, for the sakes of the deck strategy, Edict=Innocent<Smother. Also considering the 1cc factor here, and the instant speed on the other hand.

I think Rack is probably the way to play this deck aggro-like. It abuses both disruption and pox-like spells... I know it can be easly destroyed game two, where a cleaver player should side-in artifacts solutions, but if so, he will be like slowing his own deck anyway...

I'm not sure about raven's crime... It seems to be an ok card, especially because of the possibility to double-discard turn 1, and for being an infinite possibility to discard their cards late game... for that, maybe we should consider it, but yes, it's not helpful at the start at all... And perhaps looking for more disruption isn't the way to getting the aggro we want, although it works well with rack... And since we are running a huge manabase, it should be re-casted a lot.

The main problem on trying to run a more aggressive version of the deck is ditching control effects... If we were to run 4 mishra, 4 wasteland and 4 urborg, probably we would need a total of 23-24 lands, so, 11-12 swamps...
Running 4 stalkers, 4 racks and whatever else to complete the aggro set, should take 10-12 spots
considering lower than 12 is the same as deny aggro, so, 23+12 = 35
We run:
4 Smallpox
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Dark Ritual (considering this necessary to accelerate the deck as more aggro-like)
4 Sinkhole
3 Crucible of worlds
To a total of 23+35=58
Also, we usually run kegs, so, if we run 2, 60.
There is also our removal, that could be inserted in the "another aggro" spot.
That would make 60 again, but having only 12 kills that can be removed, and even if not, like mishra+crucible, it's still a hard situation, where even crucible can be removed, or mishra can be StPed, or even denied by any other huge creature of the format...

So, I would probably have to remove a control piece (notice that I've already removed big poxes from my previous) in order to get the aggro... There again, dark ritual could be taken of, but at what price? turn two solutions slower? Harder cast on stalker? Slower control at the begining? Dunno if it's worth of... maybe I wrong on that, but imo dark ritual is realy good to the deck...
Dunno either if Keg is a worth remove, since there are only two on this pseudo-list, and they are great (did I mentioned how great they are?)

I would personally never remove smallpox and whatever the removal we have from the list, or else we should indeed be playing EVA... and EVA is kind of a good match for us ;P
What takes me to hymn, duress and sinkhole...
I don't fell right removing any of those, but if I should, then I whould take sinkhole of and give up on the mana-screwer tatic, since it's weak agains loam anyway...

In all that, points to be considered are:
Which is the other kill?
Is it worth removing sinkholes?
Is it worth considering raven's crime?
Should we use 4 Edict's (as stalker synergy) and some other removal?

This should be the raw list I've reached:

// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
11 [TSP] Swamp (4)
4 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tombstalker
2 [MM] Nether Spirit

// Spells
3 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (1)
4 [TSP] Smallpox
4 [US] Duress
4 [B] Dark Ritual
4 [TSB] The Rack
2 [REW] Powder Keg
4 [TE] Diabolic Edict
2 [EVE] Raven's Crime

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [REW] Powder Keg
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 [ON] Infest

Don't wanna try it out before the discussion on it reaches something less questionable...

bowvamp

03-21-2009, 03:06 PM

On the Urborg subject: Running four would allow you to nuke your own Urborg with a second one more often if that urborg is providing your opponent with black mana.

Dude, I seriously don't think you get what I'm trying to say. Basically I will disregard the fact that nuking your own land to have 1 less sac/discard is essentially sac-ing and discarding only done differently. For now I will talk about the amount of times that:
a) they provide the opponent with black mana.
b) they help fix your mana.
(using -1 Urborg +1 Swamp vs. 4 Urborg 13 Swamp) (both examples have 6 non-black producing lands)
Ok, here goes it:

so the probability to draw the corresponding land for each individual turn is:

Opening 7: (assuming you are going first)
w/ 14 Swamps:
99% chance of having at least 1 swamp.
70% chance of having all 3 needed to be able to cast anything you want.
56% chance of having at least 1 Urborg t1.
42% chance of having 1 Urborg and fixing both players mana.
17% chance of having an escape route to that urborg by turn 4(the earliest it would matter)

w/ 13 Swamps:
98% chance of drawing at least 1.
64% chance of drawing at least 3.
44% chance of drawing 1 Urborg.
67% chance of drawing 1 Urborg+.
15% chance of having exactly 2 by turn 4.

every draw past these has a substantially accentuated difference in probability.

On the Editc/Smother/Innocent Blood: I personally prefer Edict and would rate the removal in order of: Edict>Blood>Smother. I run 4 Stalkers and have run into numerous cases where I needed to kill a creature but had a Stalker out. Smother is more of a sideboard card since most of the time you want an edict/blood effect. Smother is still good (in the side) because it provides you with targetted removal; something which the deck sorely lacks.

Umm, well if you run into situations where you had a 'stalker out and you wanted to kill their creature, you could:
a) Leave stalker back as a blocker and kill him.
b) if they have more than one you could leave stalker as a blocker twice.
c) if they have 1 and he's bigger than stalker you swing for 5 and blood in your second main phase.
d) if they have more than 1 and they're all bigger than stalker, you leave him back as a chump blocker netting you pseudo lifegain and hope to ride that to another creature kill card. This is pretty rare.
e) if they have more than 1 creature and 1 is bigger than 'stalker, you block the smaller 1, and attack blood once you rid them of their smaller creatures.
f) if I'm playing with sun droplet, notice how all of these strategies become better.

On the aggro-control topic: I have actually been thinking along those same lines Gui. This deck wants more wincons, hence become more aggroish. Problem is, if we go overboard on the aggro part, we are basically running a bad Eva Green variant. In this case, just ditching the Pox/smallpox for Eva Green creatures would be better.
Then you'd have Eva Green...
Pox doesn't want more creatures, you do. Pox has a way out of every situation(almost) and runs alot of different creatures already. You just have to be patient to TD them.

Gui's take on 4 Spirit+4Stalker is...interesting. I don't really think a mere 2/2 is aggro enough. Spirit is more of a utility card that functions as a blocker/beater in Pox. It serves more to break pox symmetry and act as a recurrable defender than an attacker per se. I think maxing out on the copies of Nether Spirit is the wrong way to put more aggro in Pox. All of the advantages pointed out by Gui above can easily be attained with just 2 copies of Spirit. Going up to four will not increase these advantages (and can even be detrimental if 2 spirits end up in the yard) and will not increase our ability to go aggro.
I agree.

I have actually been thinking on the Rack as suggested by Clavio. I believe the Rack can prove to be the 'aggro' card we are looking for. It exerts pressure on the opponent while being a bit difficult to remove. It slips right underneath our curve and pretty much shines against other black-based disruption decks (Eva Green and Deadguy). My question to Clavio (since I have been unable to play this deck with Rack for a couple of weeks now) is whether Raven's Crime is a necessity when running the Rack. Against decks with mass draw (standstill, FoF, Ancestral Visions), Crime would be a necessity. But there is a whole field of decks out there which only run cantrips, going for card selection over actual card draw. Against these decks, Crime would be redundant, right? Initial thoughts are pointing me to just put Crime in the side.
The rack is a handy dandy 1 drop, but in the late game when we are looking for it a blind chalice @1 may eliminate it's value.
Crime is good because it becomes an equilibrium-inducer which is so good in pox that pox can (imho) even stand up to standstill at an equilibrium.
I just don't run crime because when you're trying to induce equilibrium, your opponent moves their share of it from a place where it doesn't do harm (hand) onto their field. This is why I look for positive CA when going into discard.

Gui

03-21-2009, 07:20 PM

Pox doesn't want more creatures, you do. Pox has a way out of every situation(almost) and runs alot of different creatures already. You just have to be patient to TD them.

Yeah, right... I don't think pox needs to be modified... It just needs someone to be luck enough to get a top8 TDing cards all the games... that's probably the best concept of deck building.

I can't be sure whether pox needs more creatures or not, but it's not an out of question option. Anyway, an option that seems pretty bad is wishing for the right topdeck while your opponent may draw solutions and cast at the same turn and you can't disrupt then, especially when the run counters, CBs, tops and higher amount of aggro then you can handle with...

bowvamp

03-21-2009, 07:39 PM

Yeah, right... I don't think pox needs to be modified... It just needs someone to be luck enough to get a top8 TDing cards all the games... that's probably the best concept of deck building.

I can't be sure whether pox needs more creatures or not, but it's not an out of question option. Anyway, an option that seems pretty bad is wishing for the right topdeck while your opponent may draw solutions and cast at the same turn and you can't disrupt then, especially when the run counters, CBs, tops and higher amount of aggro then you can handle with...
:confused:
That part at the beginning isn't very constructive...

This obviously shows how our play styles differ. I like running a deck that decreases them to a TD and highlights on everything their deck can't do at that point.

Do to the high amount of LD, most decks running CB/top (outside of landstill) won't have the lands to cast them. Decks running a high number of "solutions" are most likely aggro. If you get their field low, their hand will follow. I doubt your deck handles counters any better if not worse than mine. Your threats will be countered, sure but that leaves you just where it would leave my deck.

Gui

03-21-2009, 09:03 PM

:confused:
That part at the beginning isn't very constructive...

This obviously shows how our play styles differ. I like running a deck that decreases them to a TD and highlights on everything their deck can't do at that point.

Do to the high amount of LD, most decks running CB/top (outside of landstill) won't have the lands to cast them. Decks running a high number of "solutions" are most likely aggro. If you get their field low, their hand will follow. I doubt your deck handles counters any better if not worse than mine. Your threats will be countered, sure but that leaves you just where it would leave my deck.

Well, LD isn't enough to handle CB in my opinion... we usually run 12-16 LD in which 8 of it needs us to sac our own land, which means we are slowing us down too and diminishing our solutions by that... Top decking a lot of lands doesn't seems to be a good solution to our own land sacrifices too...
IMO the best way to handle CB is puting stuff with lower cost fast in play before CB resolves, and play 3+cc cards trying to skip their curve, since they have low amount of 3+cc cards... Also, Nether can't be countered is a point for us... In a last though, they won't have problems topdecking more lands with their draw solutions, such as ponder, brainstomr, top + fetchs, stuff like that... You can't just pretend you can LD all their lands, since they also can counter your LD stuff...

If you mentioned the aggro version, i can't tell if it is any better against CB, since It's not even tested... But the 6pox top version can really fight CB like 50-50... dunno about yours...

IMO the control-like deck should run Kegs, and probably tops too... that gives you stability against aggro, solutions for you, and better chance when you have to "be patient to TD them"...

AcidFiend

03-22-2009, 05:21 AM

I played about 10 pre-board games against my friends Dreadstill deck today, he is running CB/Top/SStill/Force/Daze etc.

Anyways discard is the bomb versus blue, Duress + Hymn just eat away at him. I was getting rid of CB whenever I got a chance, the longer before he gets his soft lock the better.

He always seemed to have plenty of lands though I'm not running Sinkhole (can only afford Smother). Still I'd say I won 75% of games, theres just too much pressure on him to counter everything.

Based on the testing I see no need to change my previously quoted list for this matchup anyways. Not sure what they'd bring in Games 2 & 3, my sideboard needs work.

eternaldarkness

03-22-2009, 07:12 AM

Having the patience to topdeck the right card is the key to bring pox to the top? Somehow I doubt it.

Right now, I'm testing a list of -3 Kegs, +3 Racks with a bunch of my friends. So far, the extra threats seem to work quite well.

@bowvamp: Ok I'll bite. I have no idea what your arguing against/for. I wasn't even talking to you in my previous posts.

EDIT

so the probability to draw the corresponding land for each individual turn is:

Opening 7: (assuming you are going first)
w/ 14 Swamps:
99% chance of having at least 1 swamp.
70% chance of having all 3 needed to be able to cast anything you want.
56% chance of having at least 1 Urborg t1.
42% chance of having 1 Urborg and fixing both players mana.
17% chance of having an escape route to that urborg by turn 4(the earliest it would matter)

w/ 13 Swamps:
98% chance of drawing at least 1.
64% chance of drawing at least 3.
44% chance of drawing 1 Urborg.
67% chance of drawing 1 Urborg+.
15% chance of having exactly 2 by turn 4.

every draw past these has a substantially accentuated difference in probability.

As a general rule, I don't trust statistics in forum posts. Unless I compute/verify them myself. For this case, it would be an exercise in futility. Honestly, would 2, 3 or 4 copies of Urborg affect Pox's win rate that much? Personally, I see no problems with four copies since it has worked quite well for me.

Umm, well if you run into situations where you had a 'stalker out and you wanted to kill their creature, you could:
a) Leave stalker back as a blocker and kill him.
b) if they have more than one you could leave stalker as a blocker twice.
c) if they have 1 and he's bigger than stalker you swing for 5 and blood in your second main phase.
d) if they have more than 1 and they're all bigger than stalker, you leave him back as a chump blocker netting you pseudo lifegain and hope to ride that to another creature kill card. This is pretty rare.
e) if they have more than 1 creature and 1 is bigger than 'stalker, you block the smaller 1, and attack blood once you rid them of their smaller creatures.
f) if I'm playing with sun droplet, notice how all of these strategies become better.

Or g) play edict and win the game. Much simpler, no?

Right now, I'm alternating between Edict and Blood (i.e. undecided)

Then you'd have Eva Green...
Pox doesn't want more creatures, you do. Pox has a way out of every situation(almost) and runs alot of different creatures already. You just have to be patient to TD them.
Read my post again.

The rack is a handy dandy 1 drop, but in the late game when we are looking for it a blind chalice @1 may eliminate it's value.

Really, chalice is the reason why the Rack sucks? Not the fact that card draw negates it, not the fact that it doesn't do anything about the board state whatsoever?

I can't be sure whether pox needs more creatures or not, but it's not an out of question option. Anyway, an option that seems pretty bad is wishing for the right topdeck while your opponent may draw solutions and cast at the same turn and you can't disrupt then, especially when the run counters, CBs, tops and higher amount of aggro then you can handle with...

It doesn't have to be creatures. Anything that can win you the game on its own would work (I'm kinda hoping the Rack would fit, but more testing needs to be done). 4 Tombstalker is just not enough.

Gui

03-22-2009, 11:38 AM

It doesn't have to be creatures. Anything that can win you the game on its own would work (I'm kinda hoping the Rack would fit, but more testing needs to be done). 4 Tombstalker is just not enough.

Rack does a great job on that point, what I'm not sure is if Tomb + mishra + rack is enough... Anyway, it just fells like the aggressive version of pox is less control... then It looses it game style, and it's probably what Bowvamp is trying to state... Isn't the deck way of playing just to solve the problems while gets a finisher, just like control decks? If so, it's not that we need to topdeck a solution, but maybe we should play less kills and try to hold the game while we kill them... Considering those, the priority kills would be Mishra, Rack, chimeric and nether, and tombstalker as an alternate finisher that kills fast when it comes...

4eak

03-23-2009, 11:55 AM

I was unsure where to put this post, as most of the builds in this thread are mono black (and Vaka is BW), and most of the other Pox threads are dead. The opening post of this thread suggests Loam as a possible card, and it has been mentioned in this thread a few times, so I will place it here. I could easily make a primer about the deck, but I won't. I've been displeased with my mono black and W/B Pox decks, but I played a fellow by the name of Phantom_It, and his Intuition deck (of all things) inspired me to remake my pox deck (so, thanks for the inspiration). I have been extremely pleased with the results of this deck. Like most Pox variants, the aggro match isn't great, but everything else ranges from pretty decent to outstanding.

Here is the list:

Symmetrical Control/Disruption Cards: 11
4 Smallpox
4 Pox
3 Pernicious Deed

Undercosted Targeted Control/Disruption Cards: 12
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Wasteland (always retardedly good with Loam)

Card that Break the Symmetry: 15
4 Life from the Loam
3 Raven's Crime (hells yeah)
1 Eternal Witness
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Worm Harvest (completely underrated card; broken in this deck)
4 Mox Diamond (doesn't break symmetry of deed, but it does for the pox effects)

Mana-base (in addition to cards above): 22
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Mishra's Factory (recursive win-con/blockers/etc.)
3 Windswept Heath
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Bayou
1 Forest
2 Swamp
3 Barren Moor (invaluable in the Loam engine)
3 Tranquil Thicket

Very Tentative Sideboard:
SB: 1 Pernicious Deed
SB: 3 Engineered Plague
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Innocent Blood/Spinning Darkness
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void

The point of the deck is to break the symmetry of Pox effects using graveyard engines and a strong mana-base. Drop bombs from turn 1, and recur Loam. The deck plays extraordinary LD alongside the the one-sided Necrogen Mists that is the Raven/Loam (even better than that if you have to hit multiples in single turn).

Very notable improvements over most mono-black versions include the insanely awesome Raven's Crime/Loam engine, Pernicious Deed, Loam multiples are never dead (unlike Crucible), more sideboard options (including grip), Eternal Witness for nearly any card in the deck, and the best freaking win condition to ever be played in Pox: Worm Harvest.

You will usually Pox and Raven's Crime/Loam someone until they have nothing left. Pox.dec easily puts players into topdeck mode, and Raven's Crime alongside heavy LD effects is nothing short of amazing at stopping your opponent from doing anything relevant for the rest of the game. You will softlock most opponents out of the game. In fact, a surprising number of aggro decks get screwed over by the Raven's Crime engine in conjunction with the LD.

Worm Harvest is fantastic. He's pitchable, he recurrable, and he's Empty the Warrens for 5-storm every single time you cast it. The card can play like a DoJ-Fog effect with endless blockers, or it can finish an opponent in 2 turns.

I'm very pleased to be able to viably play 4x Pox in a deck once again.

The deck has 9 cards that are almost functionally equivalent in or out of the graveyard. Discarding your hand isn't painful because you can easily recur these cards.

The Diamond is a necessary card in this deck because you really, really want a powerful turn 1 play. Pitching a land does not hinder you from making future land drops, and Loam easily makes up for any form of card disadvantage.

Playing Multiple Loams is a good idea. You want to see it in your opening hand. You want to be able to eat a Crypt or Relic at least once. Don't tutor for it, play multiples. You'll be extremely happy you did. Additionally, Crucible of Worlds doesn't even come close to Loam. Go and test!

The deck is slow and tedious, but all most pox decks are slow and tedious (for your opponent).

peace,
4eak

lordofthepit

03-23-2009, 02:40 PM

I've been lurking on the Source for quite a while, but this is my first post. I wanted to throw something out there--probably not something you'd bring to a tournament at this point, but I was hoping maybe you guys could suggest improvements to this deck..

Here's a deck I've been working on. Because I've never played at tournaments, it's not geared towards the best decks, but I wasn't sure whether to start a new thread in New/Developmental when there's a solid Pox archetype already. To give you some background, I've played a lot of casual decks, so I see disproportionately more aggro (including weenie) strategies, and less control/combo. This should explain the lack of Wastelands and the inclusion of anti-aggro cards like Funeral Charm in addition to the usual creature removal suite.

// Mana (26)
17 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Chrome Mox

// Win (7)
3 Nether Spirit
4 The Rack

// Disruption (27)
4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Funeral Charm
4 Innocent Blood
4 Smallpox
3 Pox
1 Ensnaring Bridge

Several prominent cards are notably not present in this decklist:

- Tombstalker - I've tried it, and it will sometimes allow you to outrace your opponent without creating a hard lock. But it has poor synergy with Smallpox and Pox in the sense that you can't play after Tombstalker hits; granted, I anticipate people will say "you should win when Tombstalker hits the table", but that certainly hasn't always been the case in my experience. Moreover, many have called for the removal of Innocent Blood, which is in my opinion the very best removal spell available to this archetype. For this reason, I've opted for superior utility with Nether Spirit, which has obvious synergy with all three of the aforementioned card and will allow you to chumpblock a Tarmogoyf all day long.

- Wasteland - As I've explained, I don't play against opponents with very developed decks, or Wasteland would be an obvious inclusion, as I have about 20 of them sitting around waiting to be used. Including Wasteland almost necessitates the inclusion of more Urborgs and possibly a higher total land count, however.

- Crucible of Worlds - Not as useful without Wastelands or fetchlands; I'm hesitant to include the latter because this deck cuts it real close with respect to life loss. I'd love to be able to abuse Raven's Crime with it, however. Obviously, for a better metagame, Wasteland would be a no-brainer, which might justify the inclusion of Crucible, but I was wondering how other players have found this strategy. I like having a consistent strategy, and it seems that the deck plays very differently when it has Crucible versus when it doesn't. With no tutoring or card draw, has that affected the way you played?

- Sinkhole - I've tried them, and I don't like them in Pox. Sometimes, you're able to exploit the opponent's mana screw and ride that for the win. In theory, Sinkhole is an excellent tempo card, but I don't feel that's the case in Pox. You don't have the ability to play a turn one or two threat to put pressure on the opponent (The Rack does not count, as it does not kick in until later, and Sinkhole has negative synergy with The Rack), so stunting his mana development doesn't do as much unless you can shut him down for several turns. Worst case scenario against an aggro deck, it's a tempo loss for you if your opponent drops a couple quick creatures that you can't deal with, and when you destroy his land, he just replaces it the next turn while dropping another creature. Powerful card, to be sure, but I haven't had the best results with it in Pox.

- Powder Keg - Versatile removal spell and the best answer to annoying artifacts like Chalice of the Void, which would probably own my decklist if it hits at X = 1. However, I've found it a bit slow against the weenie strategies which I see a disproportionate number of. Moreover, because my version runs 4 Chrome Moxes and 4 The Racks, it often hits my own cards.

- Thoughtseize - I don't own any of them right now, and while this is a no-brainer in most black decklists, the lifeloss hurts more in Pox than in most black (especially Suicide type) strategies. I would run Duress over Thoughtseize regardless, because my deck has pretty good answers to most creatures, so this would probably have to contend with Cabal Therapy or Funeral Charm, which are stronger than usual in my deck.

- Dark Ritual - I've played many decks, but I think at heart I am a black mage, and this is one of my favorite cards in Magic. However, in a deck without any really explosive plays it wants to drop away, and without Tombstalker, I'd opt for more lands or at least a more permanent source of acceleration in Chrome Mox.

Now that I've gone through the cards that I'm missing, here are some inclusions which are not necessarily unconventional, but do not appear in every Pox decklist:

- Nether Spirit: I love this guy. He turns Smallpox and Pox into a tempo gain and card advantage, blocks or trades (unfairly) with other creatures all day long, abuses Cabal Therapy, and provides a win condition. Obviously not as useful in multiples, but I'm tempted to run four nonetheless. He won't be able to win as quickly as Tombstalker, obviously, and his bigger counterpart can help you steal some wins before you can stabilize; on the other hand, the Spirit will allow you to stabilize more quickly. I'm willing to make that tradeoff, particularly as a Pox deck doesn't need to deal as much damage as most with cards like Pox and The Rack taking your opponent down into a manageable range.

- Funeral Charm: Incredibly versatile card. At worst, it's an instant discard that you can cast during your opponent's draw step to keep him hurting from The Rack. Sure, it's not chosen or even random discard, but that becomes less of a liability in a deck that packs as much discard as this one. It will kill smaller X/1 weenies in a targeted manner, allowing you to follow up with an Innocent Blood or a Pox effect to take out bigger threats. It can also pump up your Spirits or Factories for an extra 2 damage in a pinch, or allow you to take out an X/4 or X/5 creature, especially after you lull your opponent into thinking that you just plan to chumpblock with Spirit. The swampwalking ability isn't as useful, and I wish it were replaced with the Ebony Charm's "remove three cards from graveyard" ability, especially to remove excess Spirits if necessary, but don't overlook the synergy with Urborg. I think it plays a huge role in this deck.

- Cabal Therapy - More powerful when following a Duress, but Nether Spirits will allow you to clean up your misses. More useful for me than most because I regularly play with the same people, as opposed to an unknown metagame, so this might be the first to go for a Thoughtseize or even a Blackmail or Raven's Crime.

- Chrome Mox - Source of acceleration in this deck. Occasionally nice synergy with Pox, allowing you to stay at three lands (or sometimes, zero, in which case it works with Smallpox as well). Will allow you to pitch excess Nether Spirits. This is a source of card disadvantage, but unlike some, I don't think this is as big a deal in Pox as in most decks, even though Pox has no source of card drawing because (1) this allows you to manipulate Pox/Smallpox math and (2) creature removal and sorcery-speed discard are occasionally dead in the wrong situations.

- Mishra's Factory - Almost a no-brainer. I've tried playing without Factories because I like having extra black sources, but I've found that the deck doesn't have a high enough density of threats otherwise. Also repels smaller creatures as a blocker.

- Ensnaring Bridge - This is a highly experimental card for me. It costs :3:, which Pox doesn't really want to play except for game changing effects, but it certainly is against much of the format. Mono black-based aggro strategies simply have no answer, and even more versatile decks will need to dig up a Krosan Grip or a bounce spell. You'll usually be able to quickly empty your hand, while it is not difficult to save up cards to allow for your Factories or Spirits to walk under the Bridge. I'd consider at least having some copies of this in the sideboard if not the maindeck. Personally, in my experience, the Bridge justifies more spots, but I can see how it loses power in other metagames.

I think the strength of this decklist is its ability to pack 15 different discard spells (Duress, Therapy, Hymn, Charm), along with the 7 Poxes, which renders The Rack that much stronger. By keeping your opponent's hand small, "chosen discard" becomes obviously becomes less weak because your opponent obviously has that much less to choose from. However, the flexibility of Charm allows you to also deal with smaller creatures that foil your 11 sacrifice effects (Blood and Poxes). In addition, Nether Spirit also serves as an excellent blocker, while Mishra's Factory allows you to easily buy more time as well. Thus, the deck is able to make use of a lot of discard while still being in position to answer the board (or at least creature threats, the most prominent form in both my casual setting as well as Legacy tournaments). Obviously, some weaknesses as well, but that's why I took this list to the Source. Hopefully, it can evolve into something stronger and a viable option for Pox.

mujadaddy

03-23-2009, 03:18 PM

My first post in here since May '08!! :tongue:

[List+Commentary]
I'm not a fan of Crucible & Wasteland either -- I think they take too many cardslots to do straight mana denial.

Sinkhole--although it's targeted, inexpensive land destruction, I have found from my testing that it's either WinMore or, more often, completely useless -- top Legacy decks have way too much land in them.

I don't quite get your -PowderKeg/+Funeral Charm strategy, but you're running a Rack list, so maybe it works for you. I find that mass removal, even if slow, is good. I used to run a Rack list, too, but I found it lacking vs. Thresh/Landstill/other poor matchups.

As far as commenting on your decklist itself, do you find that you need 4 Innocent Bloods but only 1 Ensnaring Bridge? I'd think you might want to go 2/3 or something like that. Maybe that would screw up your Rack math, though.

lordofthepit

03-23-2009, 03:55 PM

I don't quite get your -PowderKeg/+Funeral Charm strategy, but you're running a Rack list, so maybe it works for you. I find that mass removal, even if slow, is good. I used to run a Rack list, too, but I found it lacking vs. Thresh/Landstill/other poor matchups.

That could be a function of the fact that I might play against some bad aggro deck that can still kick my ass in the time it takes me to get two counters. I'm not a big fan of taking unnecessary damage or life loss in Pox. I know fully well that the first 19 lives are useless, but the 20th is invaluable, and Pox cuts it close sometimes.

I agree, mass removal is good, but when you're sitting across the board from an early Lackey or Confidant (or even a mana elf), it's often useful to be able to address that right away rather than plopping down a turn 2 or 3 Keg and then waiting one or two more turns.

Furthermore, all too often I've found myself sitting across from a fattie and a 1/1 chump, and Funeral Charm allows me to solve that and then follow up with one of 11 sacrifice effects. With 15 ways to trade at least one-for-one with creatures (Blood, Charm, Pox, Smallpox) and the ability to block with Spirits if not Factories, not to mention the possibilities of Therapy and Hymn, I don't think this deck will be swarmed by creatures too often.

I'm not dismissing the possibility of including Powder Keg, but Funeral Charm has been incredible for me so far. None of the effects look very powerful on paper, but versatility counts for a lot, and the Charm is about as versatile as it gets. I'd probably look to cut something else. Maybe I'll change my opinion though when I start to play in more developed metagames.

As far as commenting on your decklist itself, do you find that you need 4 Innocent Bloods but only 1 Ensnaring Bridge? I'd think you might want to go 2/3 or something like that. Maybe that would screw up your Rack math, though.

I haven't looked at taking out Innocent Blood because I think it's the best removal spell available to Pox, but of course, it's probably the least versatile card in the deck. Ensnaring Bridge was a bit of an experimental inclusion that I've been fairly happy with so far.

You did touch on one weakness of the deck: lack of threat density. By "Rack math", I assume you mean the opponent can simply hold cards to prevent you from killing them with the Rack, so it would be necessary to continue to force them to discard. But you will also need to kill whatever creatures they have hiding idle behind the Bridge so that your Factories and Spirits can attack. It will be harder than it sounds to either force discard or kill creatures while holding enough cards back to get under the Bridge.

Thanks for your suggestions, and I'll take a look at what I can do. Obviously, because my deck relies on a lot of synergistic interactions to compensate for lack of power compared to other builds (in the form of Tombstalker and Crucible and such), I'm going to have to consider how those suggestions affect other cards in the deck.

mujadaddy

03-23-2009, 04:15 PM

Well, Powder Keg kills two kinds of things -- artifacts being the other. If you're not seeing lots of artifacts (Jitte, Vial, etc.) then, sure, your meta isn't scary enough to think about Kegs :)

But Innocent Blood isnt' the best removal spell available to Pox -- Diabolic Edict (instant!) is... It costs more, but it's Instant, and that can do many more tricks, heh.

lordofthepit

03-23-2009, 05:14 PM

Well, Powder Keg kills two kinds of things -- artifacts being the other. If you're not seeing lots of artifacts (Jitte, Vial, etc.) then, sure, your meta isn't scary enough to think about Kegs :)

I actually play with a friend on Apprentice. Jitte generally would not affect the game because I was able to kill off any creature that hit the board, although an active Jitte would prevent Nether Spirit from being an effective bocker. :frown:

I would expect to deal with Vial similarly--by killing off creatures that hit the board or even before they hit the board through discard. However, Vial Goblins may give the deck a lot of problems because it simply packs more creatures than can be realistically killed off.

That's not to say I'm not worried about artifacts. There are some that scare the crap out of me. As I mentioned, Chalice of the Void totally kicks the deck in the nuts, and if I begin to see more CotV or ever consider playing in a tournament, it would necessitate the inclusion of Kegs. So would Isochron Scepter, which could be paired with anything from Orim's Chant or even as innocuous as a Swords to Plowshares or some random cantrip or lifegain. It would totally wreck this deck.

mujadaddy

03-23-2009, 05:24 PM

You hit the big ones, lol: Jitte, Chalice, Scepter...

Vial, as you say, isn't *that* huge of a deal except that it gets around any mana-denial strategy Pox might have. But yours is a hand-denial deck, so yes, you can almost ignore it.

I've never found Stompy (esp. not Dragon) to be any worry vs. Pox, as their threats are big-but-few -- small/pox & blood(edict!) make them cry... but a deck with many small fast critters + Jitte would probably hurt your feelings...

Scepter -- blech. Scoop :wink: :laugh:

...

Chalice of the Void -- THIS is why you run a varied mana curve, and why Innocent Blood might be a "skip" if you're already not running Drituals... Just something to think about... (*cough*Edict*cough*)

lordofthepit

03-23-2009, 06:16 PM

I'm looking at incorporating Powder Kegs upon your advice. It will prevent Chalice from totally destroying the deck, as well as allowing you to punish opponents who overextend. I'm thinking of adding three of them, and removing a Therapy and perhaps a combination of the Ensnaring Bridge, a Funeral Charm ( :cry: ), and a Pox.

Additionally, I'm thinking that with only 6 "Duress" type cards, the deck may not have the necessary threshold of effects to look at the opponent's hand to justify Therapy over Thoughtseize or Blackmail. So I'm looking into fixing that as well.

As for Edict over Blood, my preference is 1 cc sorcery > 2 cc instant, especially given that Blood really has no drawback in this deck, besides slowing down your Spirits. But if I get destroyed by opposing manlands, Idols, and Totems, I might reconsider! :tongue:

mujadaddy

03-23-2009, 06:24 PM

But if I get destroyed by opposing manlands, Idols, and Totems, I might reconsider! :tongue:Haha.

My pox deck runs 2 Pox/4 Smallpox. It has a different focus than most, though, which is why you & I agree on some things that the rest of the thread doesn't, but we disagree on others :smile:

...I'm not a fan of Cabal Therapy--certainly not maindecked. After sideboards, maybe it's useful, but I'd rather hymn/'sieze ...

bowvamp

03-23-2009, 07:35 PM

I am looking at your list of things pox hates in disbelief.

@ Chalice@1 (I assume you are talking about this one): All that I have found is needed to have a solid 1cc base is:
4 Mindstab (super secret tech)
3 Innocent Blood (for when you don't go first)
4 Chrome Mox (better than dark rit in this case, also what I play)
of course, Chalice@2 is scary, but it's also rare.

@Jitte:
Generally, the mana it costs to play it is enough for you to capitalize on and kill their threat. If they don't have a threat out, sinkhole is your best friend so you can use the mana when they do have one out. I really don't see why Jitte is so much of a troublesome card when you don't hurt more than pretty much anything else does from it.

@Scepter:
Over reacting.
They get 1 permanent card in hand, so what? Oh right, you guys use the discard-only onedrop-intensive version. Good luck with that. I mean if they get chant on, all you need is to keep them at 2/establish a wastelock/kill it via keg. Anyways, the probability that through all of your discard they establish THAT specific lock is in the range of minute to impossible. I'd focus my SB somewhere else.

EDIT:
Ok, now I'm frustrated. I've put my list on the chopping block twice now and it still is scratchless. I mean gosh I asked for criticism. Give me some criticism! (about my list that is)

mujadaddy

03-23-2009, 09:22 PM

Ok, now I'm frustrated. I've put my list on the chopping block twice now and it still is scratchless. I mean gosh I asked for criticism. Give me some criticism! (about my list that is).....

I'll let you critique mine!

3 Nihilith
2 Tombstalker
2 Fulminator Mage
4 Pox
4 Mindstab
4 Chrome Mox
3 Crucible of Worlds
Nihilith -- I tried it. Didn't really get the job done for me -- too slow, too conditional, too small by the time it came online. A big ol' WinMore.

I like 3 Tombstalkers.

Fulminator Mage -- I never tried it, as I had moved away from Land Destruction as a strategy.

I think 4 Pox is too many -- I run 2, 3 is probably ok though.

Mindstab -- Ugh. You should run the Rack with this if you're going to run it at all. It actually gets past people stalling your Racks, but it takes a while to come online... but you're not running Racks. So, what's to stop people from emptying their hand in the 4 turns that Mindstab is running down?

Chrome Mox -- My reasoning against it is here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=191679&highlight=chrome+mox#post191679 ...if you're going to read the whole thread, this is a good starting point--you can follow my noobish beginnings and their eventual evolution to less-noobishness :laugh:

Crucible/Wastelock -- That's a lot of cards just for non-basic land hate... It's powerful, for sure, and good with Mishra's. As I said, I'm not running a dedicated LD suite anymore in Pox though. Also, doesn't this negate the need for Fulminator Mages?

@ Chalice@1 (I assume you are talking about this one): All that I have found is needed to have a solid 1cc base is:
4 Mindstab (super secret tech)
3 Innocent Blood (for when you don't go first)
4 Chrome Mox (better than dark rit in this case, also what I play)
of course, Chalice@2 is scary, but it's also rare.Well, I dislike all those cards lol. And in my list, I've actually moved to using 4 chalices. The reason it warrants a mention, though, is that it's card advantage, and artifacts are tough for monoB to destroy.

@Jitte:
Generally, the mana it costs to play it is enough for you to capitalize on and kill their threat. If they don't have a threat out, sinkhole is your best friend so you can use the mana when they do have one out. I really don't see why Jitte is so much of a troublesome card when you don't hurt more than pretty much anything else does from it.If you're not having a problem with jittes, you're probably not seeing them anywhere outside Dragon Stompy. Granted, our worst matchups don't use them, but all manner of random decks with small, cheap creatures can and do, and the lifegain is really tough to handle.

@Scepter:
Over reacting.
They get 1 permanent card in hand, so what? Oh right, you guys use the discard-only onedrop-intensive version. Good luck with that. I mean if they get chant on, all you need is to keep them at 2/establish a wastelock/kill it via keg. Anyways, the probability that through all of your discard they establish THAT specific lock is in the range of minute to impossible. I'd focus my SB somewhere else.You know, you can't cast Keg if they get scepter/chant online, right? You also know that your decklist has Kegs all in the sideboard, not main, right?

Powder Kegs aren't for the sideboard, they're for main. They help versus:
:0:
token swarms
chalice of the voids
moxes
Engineered Explosives that aren't activated immediately
Activated Manlands
:1:
Nimble mongoose
Kird Ape (meh)
SDT (yes, putting it on top of their deck when they didn't want it there *IS* helping)
new :1: tech I'm not hip to the names of...
:2:
Goyf
Bob
every creature and artifact that costs :2: in the game
:3: ...etc...

The point is that untargeted, uncolored mass removal is good -- and letting :b: hit artifacts is good, too.

bowvamp

03-23-2009, 10:49 PM

I will just make a couple "fixes" to the above post.

Nihilith has the same clock 'Stalker does.
I'll try rits.
What black spell in my list doesn't hit artifacts?

In response to your questions.
Wastelands don't negate fulminator mages because the only time you sac it is to chump block somebody, uneven trade, hit their last land, or in response to creature kill. Mindstab specifically is good with Mox because it eliminates the redundancy of drawing multiples. Nothing stops them from emptying their hand, but the decks that do that are full of creatures and have a full 5-9 cards in the board that deal with them. Generally people want to have a good game past the 4th turn, especially considering that they aren't just goldfishing.

EDIT: Oh yeah, about that 4 pox thing. Mox helps that too.

Jeet

03-23-2009, 11:58 PM

lordofthepit

03-24-2009, 01:49 AM

Symmetrical Control/Disruption Cards: 11
4 Smallpox
4 Pox
3 Pernicious Deed

Undercosted Targeted Control/Disruption Cards: 12
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Wasteland (always retardedly good with Loam)

Card that Break the Symmetry: 15
4 Life from the Loam
3 Raven's Crime (hells yeah)
1 Eternal Witness
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Worm Harvest (completely underrated card; broken in this deck)
4 Mox Diamond (doesn't break symmetry of deed, but it does for the pox effects)

Mana-base (in addition to cards above): 22
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Mishra's Factory (recursive win-con/blockers/etc.)
3 Windswept Heath
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Bayou
1 Forest
2 Swamp
3 Barren Moor (invaluable in the Loam engine)
3 Tranquil Thicket

Very Tentative Sideboard:
SB: 1 Pernicious Deed
SB: 3 Engineered Plague
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Innocent Blood/Spinning Darkness
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void

Interesting take, 4eak. I love the being able to fit a powerful card like Loam in there. However, a few questions:

- Do you find 8 Pox effects and 3 Deeds enough to deal with opposing creatures?
- How have the lack of Duress and/or Thoughtseize or any similar cards affected your matchup against control/combo?
- How often can you get your Stronghold/Witness engine running with a single copy of each? I know you can keep digging through your library for Stronghold and recur it back with Loam, from which you can get Witness back, and then proceed to get whatever card you want. Seems kind of slow though (although extremely powerful if you do manage to set it up).

4eak

03-24-2009, 08:00 AM

@ Jeet

However, it might fold to graveyard hate more than normal pox.

This is true. GY hate sucks, but not as bad as you might think. There are ways to combat this. The first issue is to run multiples of any important card that you would recur. Playing carefully around GY hate, such as cycling in response to crypt/relic to grab Loam out of the GY, is also important. Don't dredge if you don't want to; you'll still be drawing playable gold.

Perhaps it is like a dedicated control version of Ichorid. Unlike Ichorid though, GY hate does not reset the state of the game, preventing us from reaching some threshold (pardon the expression) of cards in our GY to function at all. We are still a very functional deck without cards in our GY. The functions improve from good stuff like Sinkhole/Hymn/Pox/Small Pox/Deed/Wasteland to very good card advantage and recurring pressure when we choose to get the ball rolling again after being subject to GY hate.

Only a handful of cards become truly dead immediately after a crypt/relic, while future draws of Loam can still Dredge and Raven's can still be casted. Unfortunately, Worm's Harvest is in the "dead" category. Adding a win condition that doesn't rely upon the GY isn't a terrible idea.

Additionally, our sideboard could be made to answer GY hate (because we'll almost only see it in g2/3).

@ lordofthepit

Do you find 8 Pox effects and 3 Deeds enough to deal with opposing creatures?

Against most decks, absolutely. When you sit down to play the deck, you'll find that Raven's Crime (and Hymn) will often clear your opponent's hand of threats, often requiring a lot less actual board control than most Pox decks would require.

Like Discard.dec, you'll have a ton of hand-pressure, and Raven's Crime forces your opponent to "use it, or lose it". The difference between Discard.dec and Loam-Pox is that opponents will rarely have any land with which to play any of their topdecks, and that while discard effects might be dead against an opponent with no cards in hand for discard.dec, Loam-Pox can always still put those Lands (which would have been used to Retrace Raven's Crime) to good use.

The softlock is generating Loam advantage, always making your lands drops, while applying constant hand and LD pressure on your opponent. If your opponent didn't draw a basic land, then chances are they lost their turn because you'll either wasteland it or force them to discard it. For everything else, there is Pox/smallpox/deed.

There aren't many high-basic count aggro decks. You should really question whether you should be playing Pox in heavy aggro environments in the first place though. However, even my merfolk record has been pretty decent.

The heavy discard strategy has been extremely effective. Aether Vial is really the card that gives you the most trouble in high-basic count aggro decks.

In addition, Mishra's Factory recursion and Worm Harvest can either trade for a creature every turn, or even Fog for eternity like DoJ'ing every turn.

Heavier board control can ber made available, but so far, I haven't had as much need. Cards like Engineered Plague and Deed are exceptionally good against any of our weakest aggro matches.

How have the lack of Duress and/or Thoughtseize or any similar cards affected your matchup against control/combo?

I wouldn't want Duress or Thoughtseize against control. Raven's Crime is an unbelievable bomb against them. CB/Top is the best control can offer, and even that isn't very effective against a deck that pressures there mana-base on such a large CC scale.

I definitely want Duress/Thoughtseize against combo. If I was more worried about it though, I would play Chalice in the main or side. Mox, land, chalice at 1, or even just Chalice@0 is very powerful. Again, Pox effects, Hymn, Sinkhole/wasteland, and our Raven's Crime engine is effective. If they don't kill you first turn, then you still have a decent shot.

You have to remember the each land lost or each card discarded can often be the loss of an entire turn for a combo deck. Pox isn't terrible at that, and this deck isn't much different (outside of the green splash) from all the other variants.

How often can you get your Stronghold/Witness engine running with a single copy of each? I know you can keep digging through your library for Stronghold and recur it back with Loam, from which you can get Witness back, and then proceed to get whatever card you want. Seems kind of slow though (although extremely powerful if you do manage to set it up).

Another good question.

You will often cycle through half or more of your deck, so the odds of seeing both isn't awful. In cases where you actually need the combo, you'll usually be going through most of your deck anyways, increasing your odds even further.

Stronghold/Witness is in the deck as a backup plan for several circumstances. It is also randomly very powerful just by itself, but that isn't why it is there.

I've won many games on the back of having those singletons. I don't think I would want to see their counts increased, but I wouldn't have a problem removing them if necessary.

Seperate, the cards aren't awful by themselves. Land is always strong in this deck, and Witness almost always has some relevant target. Together it can be very powerful. It prevents you from Decking yourself, and it grabs the exact card you want every turn for the rest of the game.

So, yes, it is slow. But, we have a consistent engine to eventually get the cards online, and having the option there has been meaningful. I certainly don't like opening hands with those cards though.

Lastly, I've also enjoyed singletons of The Tabernacle, Maze of Ith, and Dust bowl.

peace,
4eak

ChillerKiller0815

03-24-2009, 09:12 AM

[QUOTE=4eak;331034]@ Jeet

Hi 4eak,

I like your deck a lot but I have a few things to say:

1) The Manabase is almost Nonbasics only which can cost several games angainst decks packing Moon-Effects (Not only DS) or B2B

2) Merfolk and other decks pack Relict of P. which kill our drawengine and our retrace spells which hurts.

3) I feel the need of some quick and versatile disruption to get us to those Pox/Witness/Deed turns -> ever thought about funeral charm?

4) How about a third wincon? My suggestion would be Phyrexian Totem since it isn´t gravedependant and helps to keep the mana amount up in case loam gets handelt. Can also be played under Moon and cost 2 mana on turn 3 because it provides you with one black mana. Seals a game when safe. Manacost cc3 is high enough to not being destroyed by deed (Nimble, Weenies, CB, Chalice, Tribal, Vial, Standstill,.......

5) If you play some Manaboost (Mox, Loam, P.Totem) we could start to think about 3Sphere in the Main or SB. I mean we play 16 LD-Card (small pox, pox, sinkhole, wasteland)

Happy to hear some feedback

4eak

03-24-2009, 09:49 AM

@ ChillerKiller0815 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/member.php?u=4339)

1) The Manabase is almost Nonbasics only which can cost several games angainst decks packing Moon-Effects (Not only DS) or B2B

You are right, especially about the Moon Effects.

The only maindeck answer to resolved Blood moon is Pernicious Deed. If they Blood Moon you on turn two or later, then you have have a decent shot at getting the BG for Pernicious Deed through Mox Diamond and fetches for basics. I think the real problem is making sure t2 and t3 doesn't stomp your face as they also have tools to make Pox's LD effect asymmetrical.

B2B hasn't been as problematic in testing actually. Unlike decks with lots of mana acceleration that can 1st turn Blood Moon, B2B is usually played in MUC, and so we won't be seeing it on turn 1. Our hand and land destruction is very problematic for keeping B2B in hand or even having the mana to cast it. A resolved B2B isn't as bad a Moon either, simply because we can get to untappable mana sources, and Crime/Hymn a hand away to resolve Deed. For pox Effects just sac your tapped non-basics.

Besides Zoo w/Moon, decks playing these cards have been very winnable (sometimes favorable) matches. Mox Diamond and fetches go a long way. I haven't been so worried about it, but I will test it again.

Merfolk and other decks pack Relict of P. which kill our drawengine and our retrace spells which hurts.

Again, this is true. I would like to remind you that the Loam/Crime engine is a complementary (and powerful) addition to the deck, but most of our actual control cards have very little to do with our graveyard. Stopping the GY does not stop our heavy control of the game, although it does halt our Softlock until we get another Life from the Loam.

Essentially, Pox decks are innately built to make the Pox effect asymmetrical, and killing part of our graveyard does very little to stop our topdeck mode, which has been designed to be better than other decks under symmetrical control cards like Pox/Smallpox/Deed.

Adding a draw engine like Loam amplifies the asymmetry, but it isn't necessary to have it up to win.

When we are losing to Merfolk, it is rarely because of GY hate, and usually because of Vial and a Swarm that we just didn't effectively answer early enough.

Lastly, it isn't just Merfolk that run GY hate; almost all decks do. Adapting your strategy to play against GY hate is part of the learning curve of the deck. Also, part of the strength of running multiples is that if you lose the engine to hate, then you have a good chance to start it back up very quickly.

How about a third wincon? My suggestion would be Phyrexian Totem

Will test it. I don't like the drawback or the expense of getting the card into play. I'll be testing Tombstalker and Epochrasite as well. Running a 3rd Worm Harvest would go a long way as well.

If you play some Manaboost (Mox, Loam, P.Totem) we could start to think about 3Sphere in the Main or SB. I mean we play 16 LD-Card (small pox, pox, sinkhole, wasteland)

I can see it in the sideboard for sure. I have not liked how the card interacts with Raven's Crime, but it is certainly a strong card when your opponent teeters on 1-2 lands (but so is Raven's Crime).

What would you remove for it?

peace,
4eak

lordofthepit

03-24-2009, 10:59 AM

4eak, ChillerKiller also mentioned Relic, which is something I forgot to address (or more generally, graveyard hate).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems in addition to having to deal with Relic, this deck pretty much rolls over to a Leyline of the Void or even a Planar Void and has issues against weaker cards like Tormod's Crypt. If the Voids hit, your three Deeds are your only answer, provided that they survive against a presumably black deck packing Thoughtseizes and Duresses. If they stay on the board, you've lost your engine and are left with suboptimal disruption cards (for a Pox deck) and extremely poor win conditions (a single Witness and two Factories). Have you come across that problem? How do you address it?

mujadaddy

03-24-2009, 11:14 AM

[4eak's deck] looks very strong. I'm surprised there were no replies.I think it looks strong, too, I just didn't know how I felt about the green splash. I think 4eak's deck is the best green splash with Pox I've ever seen though :laugh:

4eak, ChillerKiller also mentioned Relic, which is something I forgot to address (or more generally, graveyard hate).Yeh, it seems like post-board the deck would lose a lot of its potential.

Reliance on graveyard manipulation is one of the things that I purposefully ignore in a Pox deck, simply because it's so easy to sideboard for it. I use 4 LotV & 2 Extirpates in the sideboard for Ichorid/Loam decks -- it makes them not a factor games 2 & 3.

Gui

03-24-2009, 03:30 PM

mujadaddy

03-24-2009, 03:53 PM

Just to state, when moon is in the game, fetch lands are mountais, so, your chances to get 1gb is a little harder then he's saying...
Anyway... I fell like deed is a substitute for keg... I wonder if splashing doesn't make the deck less stable just to add a card you already have a similar solution... and also, keg is colorless, so there would be not much problem to cast it even in the bg pox...
Personally, I like mono:b: Pox -- running 17 basic swamps (2 urborg, 4 mishra's) makes Moons & Wastelands so much wasted cardspace across the table; also, almost no worries about getting :b::b::b: and NO worries for :b::b: ...

However, there is something to be said for Deed, and the green splash needed for it. In my opinion, Deed is the most broken single card out there, because it kills everything on the board, yet is more "defineable" than say, Nev's Disk.

As I said, I'm not a green-splasher, but I do like that particular list. Needs more Goyf, though :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

4eak

03-25-2009, 12:07 AM

@ Gui_Brasil

Anyway... I fell like deed is a substitute for keg...

It isn't. Keg is a substitute (a poor one) for Deed. Keg handles only artifacts and creatures at a single CC, and it takes time to build up. Deed clears everything but planewalkers, top to bottom CC. Every Pox deck would run Deed if it cost 1BB instead of 1BG.

I wonder if splashing doesn't make the deck less stable just to add a card you already have a similar solution

The primary reason to splash green is not Deed, even though that is a very nice bonus. Loam is the reason to go green, and there isn't a substitute. CoW costs 1 more (this is a pretty big issue for the deck), is a permanent, is way too easy to counter/destroy, and it doesn't put the cards into your hand (no Raven's Crime, no CA, fails to protect your hand from Pox effecs.

I've found this version to be much more stable than Mono Black versions which hit topdeck mode in 3-4 turns. The Loam engine eliminates a lot of the inconsistencies of the Mono Black versions, and Worm Harvest is the best solution to one of Pox's biggest problems, finding a strong win condition.

@ mujadaddy

Personally, I like mono:b: Pox -- running 17 basic swamps (2 urborg, 4 mishra's) makes Moons & Wastelands so much wasted cardspace across the table; also, almost no worries about getting :b::b::b: and NO worries for :b::b: ...

Mono Black versions don't have a much higher chance to see colored mana sources. This version has:

18 Green mana sources, 20 Black mana sources.

Opposing Wastelands are pointless when you have Loam. It is a very dangerous choice to Wasteland this deck because Pox effects become so much more potent. Wasteland is an attrition card, not color disruption against us, and few decks could dare trade with us. When I play against Pox, I definitely prefer to keep all the land I have in play for Pox effects, opting to sacrifice Wasteland than my colored sources.

As I said, I'm not a green-splasher, but I do like that particular list. Needs more Goyf, though

As sad as it sounds, I did try Goyf (if you play Green, you have to try it, no matter what). It was (no surprise) a decent card.

@ All

I have to admit I am a little surprised by how much we've considered the notion that this deck has an unstable manabase. In practice, I have not found the deck to have those problems as much as you seem to think. Go playtest. The mana-base has been more stable and consistent than most Mono-Black Pox decks I've played. It should be too; there are 31 mana sources and Loam to land back when you want.

Some decks roll over to Blood Moon, and they still see plenty of play. This deck hurts, but it is far from dead. Blood moon is not a good enough reason not to splash for Green. The card just isn't common enough, nor does it completely wreck us with 13 mana source answers on 1st turn. I think cards like CB and Chalice, which see more general play, are the disruption cards that we should be thinking about in this thread.

The GY hate problem does exist, but I think you've overemphasized the problem. The vast majority of the deck is not subject to GY hate. If necessary, playing in Topdeck mode is viable line of play (which most Pox decks experience).

The issue in my mind: are those vulnerabilities worth the other improvements?

In my experience, Mono-Black Pox just hasn't been good enough. It hasn't been able to break the symmetry of Pox effects well enough, its soft locks are based far too much on luck, it scales poorly against opponent's playskill, it can lock itself out too often, it generally has no maindeck answers to artifacts or enchantments, it sits in topdeck mode waiting for subpar black disruption like Funeral Charm (a card I love, but don't like in practice), and it lacks a good win condition which is not subject to its own Pox effects.

I think the Green Splash answers some of of those problems pretty well. I did a lot of praying when I played Mono-Black Pox, and I don't have to pray with this deck.

peace,
4eak

mujadaddy

03-25-2009, 12:44 AM

Like I said, very strong :g::b: Pox list.

However: "The vast majority of the deck is not subject to GY hate."

Yeah. Yeah, it is. Not saying that alone isn't reason to play it, but at least 11 of your 15 symmetry-breakers are graveyard cards or cards that were picked because of GY recursion (all 15 in the latter case). If you can't or don't get Loam online, it just seems, to me & without testing it myself, like the deck turns back into weak:b:pox.

Speaking of..."In my experience, Mono-Black Pox just hasn't been good enough. It hasn't been able to break the symmetry of Pox effects well enough, its soft locks are based far too much on luck, it scales poorly against opponent's playskill, it can lock itself out too often, it generally has no maindeck answers to artifacts or enchantments, it sits in topdeck mode waiting for subpar black disruption like Funeral Charm (a card I love, but don't like in practice), and it lacks a good win condition which is not subject to its own Pox effects."

You're absolutely right, on all counts. Traditional :b:Pox isn't good enough -- it's probably Tier 3, but the class of Tier 3. PM incoming.

eternaldarkness

03-25-2009, 08:38 AM

4eak, I wouldn't worry too much about the supposed 'shaky manabase' (come on guys, it's not like he's playing 5 colors. It's just B/G) or the weakness to blood moon (is moon really that dominant? I only run against moon thresh or dragon stompy once in a *cough* blue moon. If blood moon is really predominant in your meta, then I'm sure you can configure the mana base to make it more resilient) and instead focus on whether your B/G list solves the traditional mono-black pox build's weaknesses.

To summarize these weaknesses:

1.) Lack of a real draw/library manipulation

- Pretty much solved in your list. Loam + cycling lands is a potent draw engine

2.) Swarm aggro (i.e. tribal decks)

- How good are your Elves, Merfolk, Slivers and Goblins match-ups? Elves and Goblins are winnable for Pox postboard, but Merfolk and Slivers can be pure hell. Pernicious Deed obviously helps, but is it fast enough to really help out?

3.) Few win cons

- This one can be solved with a good draw engine. Which you have. But all of your win cons are susceptible to yard hate. I'm thinking maybe have a few vanilla beaters in the board?

This thread is starting to become an archetype thread. Kinda like how Survival has a single archetype thread + a dozen different branch threads from regular survival to elf survival.

Gui

03-25-2009, 09:30 AM

I fell like the Bg list looks like a different view of Bg rock that runs poxes...
Anyway, first comment is about the manabase, I want to know how does it works for you against wasteland running decks... In my opinion, blood moon is not that dominant in the format, although it has it's top 8 shows... but wastland, that's dominant for sure... What I mean is that Wastelands used to slow me dow the hell when I tryed to splash, since you need the double b for smallpox and sinkhole, and the triple b for big poxes... It's like you are not going to do anything until turn 3 it there's a wasteland in your way... of course there is duress and raven's in your list, and mox diamond as well, so, i wanna know how it goes for you... have you tryed the deck against counterbalance, landstill, team america, gobbos, anything tier 1?

Anyway, let me try to check pros and cons on that list
Pros
- Life from the loam is definitively a pro, since you sacrifice your manabase for most of your effects, like wasteland, smallpox and pox. Also, it can return mishra back from the dead easier than crucible.
- Pernicious deed is a pro, but imo it also has its cons... If you get it fast, you will be able to counter counterbalance and landstill, and it is much better against aggro stuff then keg is... although, deed seems better played on Bg rock which plays in order for it to work... The con about it is that it's 3cc and breaks your own kills and stuff too... A good synergy here is that loam is not a permanent, so, good...
- Cycle lands, seems nice with loam, helping you keep the draw

Cons
- This build lacks kill conditions even more the previous lists. I know you've considered goyf, but it doesn't fell like the right win con, but it doesn't fell bad too... You'll have to cast it after game is controled though, but that's similar the previous tombstalker issue.
- Your anti-aggro solutions are all 2cc or more. That's a bit slow, even if you hit a deed in board, they'll probably have more stuff... deed solves the problem more than big pox, and i fell like it should be 4 deeds instead of 4 pox
- Worm Harvest is like Goyf, but a little worse as kill, a little better as solution... don't fell like you need it at all, you could play 4 goyfs instead and you would never miss it...
- Your only back-to-game solution is mishra+loam, which seems little...

Considerations:
- Since you have more lands, you have less solutions on the draw, and you are slower than other mono-b versions.
- Raven's crime works better on this list, i'm sure, since you have more lands and loam...
- It fells like you should try more goyfs, more mishras and add racks... rack+crime is sick, and will help you out
- Although wasteland is bronken, You don't want it at the very begining... you need at least the mana to cast loam every turn to make the waste-lock works, and you have a 2cc+ curve with tons of double costs, like bb, bbb and 1bg... Mox helps, but a wasted land of yours means speed decrease...
- Volrath Stronghold seems ok, but you have only 2 creatures there... again you are probably already increasing the kills

Although Loam is in the maindeck, It fells like you need at least 24+ lands on it... more than that also fells like too much for a deck that can bring up tons of solutions...
I also fell like urborg could be more played there, and that you could run 2 tombstalkers md too, since you will dredge loam and have more grave than the mono-b.

Well, the job now is to test that up... Hope it's better than mono-b results, and better than Bg rock as well...

Mesercus

03-25-2009, 09:52 AM

This deck should be more aggressive. many control elements aren't needed. You have to break the game and win fast after the disruption.
I play an extreme aggressive and dangerous version, it's a mix between suicide and pox decks.
I consider pox a very strong and devastating card that suites well for aggressive black decks.

15 swamp
6 fetchlands

4 dark ritual
4 small pox
3 pox
4 tombstalker
4 negator
4 reanimate
4 thoughtseize
4 cabal therapy
4 snuff out
2 kaervek's spite
2 nyxathid/the rack/ win condition slots
(or 4 demigod instead of spite and win con slots)

sideboard
4 engineered plague
4 duress
4 extirpate
3 torm. crypt

i also tried 4 demigod of revenge. They are potent topdeck and you can cast them with rituals or reanimate after descarded with pox effects or cabal therapy if needed. 5 mana sometimes is a problem.
Pox effetcs, early disruption , fetch and snuff out fuel very quickly your graveyard for tombstalkers.
Negators are dangerous but have sinergy with stalkers and a 5/5 trample could win fast the game. You can reanimate them and attacks again to end the game (or open with ritual +negator).
I use therapy over hymn to tourach cause this deck need to choose what descard...fow,daze, stp to protect our win condition and tarmo or fast creatures to get an advantage and you could use it on yourself for negator or stalker to reanimate them if needed.
Reanimate is a must for pox deck..i won many games reanimating tarmo, confidant and some big guys.
I know that with pox effetcs, fetch, snuff out and reanimate i loose MANY life points but this cards together work fine.
This could sounds weird but i have more chanches vs burn and sligh with this list even with negator due to how fast this deck could win (with demigod i won many games in those matchs). Remains hard anyway^^
Sure there are weakness but it's fun to play and effective =)

4eak

03-25-2009, 11:08 AM

@ eternaldarkness

Loam + cycling lands is a potent draw engine

You might be surprised (I know I was), if you are able to constantly Loam/Cycle to draw cards, then you're usually already so far ahead that your opponent isn't coming back. You are right that Loam is an awesome draw engine, but it will not be common to pickup 2 or even 3 cyclers with Loam until you hit your 2nd Loam.

Usually, you'll Loam for only a single cycle card, a mana source like Bayou/Basic/Fetch, and a utility land like Factory/Wasteland/Volrath's/Raven's Crime fodder.

The cycle cards act like Street Wraith for dredging and protecting Loam, as topdecks they cycle into answers like how Rabid Wombat uses cycling, and they can be used as mana sources that make good sac fodder. I often hold on to them to maximize their versatile utility.

How good are your Elves, Merfolk, Slivers and Goblins match-ups? Elves and Goblins are winnable for Pox postboard, but Merfolk and Slivers can be pure hell. Pernicious Deed obviously helps, but is it fast enough to really help out?

They aren't great matchups, but they are better than you would initially expect from a Pox deck. The more basics and more creatures in a deck, the harder it will be for you. That said, I honestly don't find myself in panic mode nearly as much when going green with Pox.dec. Burn and Sligh are actually the decks worst matchups, not Goblins/Elves/Merfolk. Aether Vial is actually the straw that breaks this camels back in my testing; that card sucks for us.

Deed, E-Plague, Innocent Blood/Spinning Darkness, Smallpox, Pox, Mishra's Factory, and Worm Harvest chumping once you hit 5mana is actually a decent amount of board control.

Several wins against these archetypes can also, in part, be attributed to the Raven's Crime/Loam engine. You'll clean out countless hands, including aggro's hands. It won't be uncommon to wipe out their mana-base entirely, timewalking you several turns sometimes, allowing you to rip apart their hand while you build board and card advantage.

@ Gui_Brasil

I fell like the Bg list looks like a different view of Bg rock that runs poxes...

Aye, I was inspired by an Intuition Rock deck (which did not run Poxes actually). You would expect B/G Pox to be similar to B/G Rock Control though, wouldn't you?

What I mean is that Wastelands used to slow me dow the hell when I tryed to splash, since you need the double b for smallpox and sinkhole, and the triple b for big poxes... It's like you are not going to do anything until turn 3 it there's a wasteland in your way...

There are 31 mana sources and 4 Loams in this deck. Getting to :b::b: or even :b::b::b:, even through wasteland, is not that difficult. Perhaps you'll just need to test the deck for yourself.

As for wasteland, I have already written about this, here is what I said:

'Opposing Wastelands are pointless when you have Loam. It is a very dangerous choice to Wasteland this deck because Pox effects become so much more potent. Wasteland is an attrition card, not color disruption against us, and few decks could dare trade with us. When I play against Pox, I definitely prefer to keep all the land I have in play for Pox effects, opting to sacrifice Wasteland than my colored sources.'

Wasteland is a timewalk in your favor usually. I'm perfectly happy to see my opponent using up their precious and even rarer mana sources, as next turn I'm just going to drop another and they probably won't.

have you tryed the deck against counterbalance, landstill, team america, gobbos, anything tier 1?

Aye. I wouldn't have posted unless I had tested.

This build lacks kill conditions even more the previous lists. I know you've considered goyf, but it doesn't fell like the right win con, but it doesn't fell bad too... You'll have to cast it after game is controled though, but that's similar the previous tombstalker issue.

You don't need to run many win conditions in the deck.

Unlike MBPox which attempts and often fails to protect its win conditions from symmetrical discard effects (both in hand and in play), or otherwise often pitching very important cards to preserve the win con in hand, LoamPox is more than happy to pitch Worm Harvest, Loam, Land, or Raven's Crime to Pox effects. MBPox must run more win conditions because it can't protect them (often not even from its own Pox effects), and it is forced to topdeck them way more often.

LoamPox doesn't need to topdeck Worm Harvest; it will dredge and cycleland into it. Worm's Harvest will sit there until you need him. Poxing into your tokens is meaningless because you'll just cast it again next turn. As for the GY problem, I think running 3 or even 4 Worm's Harvests and Mishra's is really the best answer to GY hate.

This plays a lot more like a versatile control deck than some short-term disruption->drop a win con and win before the opponent can stabilize (like Team America).

Your anti-aggro solutions are all 2cc or more. That's a bit slow, even if you hit a deed in board, they'll probably have more stuff... deed solves the problem more than big pox, and i fell like it should be 4 deeds instead of 4 pox

2cc is not slow. On the play it's just fine, and Mox Diamond makes it very easy to do on the draw. I actually think I may move to 4x Deed as you said. The card has been very good. I think moving to less than 4 pox is a mistake; its too mana efficient and too much of a bomb. The LD effect of Pox alone makes it an auto 4x, ripping the hand and creatures is the frosting.

Your only back-to-game solution is mishra+loam, which seems little...

You won't always win big. Also, remember that your opponent is likely to be low on health from Pox and fetches already. You usually be fighting an opponent at 12 life, not 20.

It fells like you should try more goyfs, more mishras and add racks... rack+crime is sick, and will help you out

I've already explained that Worm harvest fulfills most of our wincon needs. It is nothing short of amazing (go test it!). However, since we are on the epic quest for finding a non-Mishra's Factory/GY-based wincon that somehow dodges Pox effects (both in hand and in play) and we can miraculously not care if it gets dredged, we'll definitely need to keep looking. I don't think dramatically increasing the number of win cons will be the answer; this is definitely a dedicated control deck.

That said, Goyf interacts very well with Volrath's, and as you said: The Rack is pimp with Crime (for some reason, I like that sentence, lol).

Although wasteland is bronken, You don't want it at the very begining... you need at least the mana to cast loam every turn to make the waste-lock works, and you have a 2cc+ curve with tons of double costs, like bb, bbb and 1bg... Mox helps, but a wasted land of yours means speed decrease...

Blasphemy. (lol, jk)

Heck yeah I want it at the beginning of the game, even on turn 1. I want to maximize my LD effect, and I want to maximize my chances of seeing the card. Wasteland clears non-basics so that Pox effects are much more likely to hit basics (often the opponent may only have a few). This is absolutely vital to beating not only Standstill manlands, but also to disrupting the entire mana-base of aggro decks.

It is an auto-4x in any Pox deck because Pox only belongs in a metagame that would be vulnerable to land disruption. Wastelock with Loam is the icing on the cake, but even without Loam, you should be running Waste. If you think your metagame is otherwise, then you shouldn't even be playing Pox in the first place.

Well, the job now is to test that up... Hope it's better than mono-b results, and better than Bg rock as well...

Go for it! ;P

peace,
4eak

Gui

03-25-2009, 12:15 PM

What i'm trying to state from a few of my points there, including wasteland, the :b::b: and :b::b::b: effects and the deed vs pox part, is that you have plenty of late game excelent cards, with the only accelerator being mox, and most cards demands certain color combination... I'm sure you can handle wasteland first turn, but that would make your turn 2 solutions become turn3, your turn 3 become turn 4, and etc... although It need to be tested to be sure...
I'll have to consider some stuff on the list, probably make my own modified version and then test... although it fells like you play too heavy cards and try to compensate it with more lands... dunno if it works better than having a good number of lands and the usual pox solutions...

Could you keep us informed with results on that list of yours, and also with more up-to-date lists?

Let's all play pox! =)

clavio

03-25-2009, 12:40 PM

The GB list doesnt run duress or thoughtseize. Those cards are what give you a good game against combo, which is one of the main reasons to play the deck!

4eak

03-25-2009, 01:38 PM

@ clavio

The GB list doesnt run duress or thoughtseize. Those cards are what give you a good game against combo, which is one of the main reasons to play the deck!

You've clearly not tested enough. The deck isn't much different against combo than most of the mono black versions.

I will certainly admit that Duress and Thoughtseize are great cards, but you overestimate the value of Duress/Thoughtseize in this particular match. Combo's redundancy and resilience to control (like Brainstorming away important cards) is not phased by meeting any single 1 for 1 control card. Only softlocks like Chalice decks and Counterbalance provide any real single card strategies that can be very strong, and that is only if the deck can back it up with a real clock before combo can answer/stabilize.

What pushes the combo match in our favor isn't Duress/Thoughtseize, but rather the entirety of our hand and land destruction. We have very strong 2 for 1's; Hymn to Tourach, Pox, and Smallpox are exceptionally good at hitting 2 of their resources for a single card. Our clock is far too slow to think that a single Duress or Thoughtseize is going to ever buy us enough tempo to win before combo can recover. The truth is that the combination of our LD and Hand destruction is what gives us a solid match.

The majority of LD and discard's value is that it is nearly a timewalk against combo decks which did not have enough resources to beat you the previous turn. Unlike MBPox, Loampox has the Raven's Crime engine, which puts them on a quick clock. Once it starts, they lose the game.

Combo is not a bye for Pox, we still earn our wins. The main reason to play Pox is to disrupt unstable mana-bases and defeat control decks. It has okay matches all around, but I really think you've missed the main reasons why Pox is worth playing.

peace,
4eak

clavio

03-25-2009, 03:32 PM

Ok yeah, the clock is too slow to win off of just a single duress or whatever. But I dont even think you will live long enough for the other disruption to matter. This is why duress is so good. It will make sure you live to see turn 2/3/4 to be able to cast hymn etc. You're right in that pox smallpox and hymn do take away their resources, but we don't get to choose which ones. A single hymn turn 2 will not usually be enough to stop combo from winning.

I see the match ups like this:

combo: Very Good
control: Very good
Aggro control: about even to slightly favorable
aggro: slightly unfavorable to completely terrible.

The green splash helps with aggro and aggro control because of deed/loam engine, but I don't see it getting things done against combo.

Gui

03-25-2009, 11:10 PM

Combo is not a bye for Pox, we still earn our wins. The main reason to play Pox is to disrupt unstable mana-bases and defeat control decks. It has okay matches all around, but I really think you've missed the main reasons why Pox is worth playing.

Well, I don't fell like disrupting unstable mana bases is the main reason to play pox... Pox sure can do that when he finds one out, but trust in that is just like trusting in your enemy's lack of skill... that's not the right way to build a deck, i'm sure.
I miss duress/though in the Bg version, they are sure broken discard effects in the format, just as much as thoughseize.
Combo should never be a by for a control deck, although they can sometimes combo before you can do anything, combo is supposed to be a good match, not only for the land disruption, but also for the discards, since they'll have to figure out a way to draw their combo and protect themselves at the same time... Chalice is a good card against combo and can fix things up, but previous versions of the deck had chalice AND something else, not only chalice...

@ clavio
You've clearly not tested enough. The deck isn't much different against combo than most of the mono black versions.

Well, we are all waiting for the test results of the deck... you could post us some, maybe that would clear things up...

Still wondering how the deck goes with almost 50% of it being not-business cards: lands, that can't handle fast boards...

The main idea of the list is good, by that i mean, using deed and loam in a deck that lacks solutions against enchants/artifacts and sacrifice it's own lands in order to get advantage with pox/smallpox... It also adds us some sideboard options like krosan/naturalize/seal and add lots of options in the finisher part... But still, the deck seems a little "under construction" yet...

If the point was to explain the ideas, so, go ahead, explain then... but if the point was to show a decklist as a powerful one, then you'll have to show us some results when such a different list comes up...

Yet, there are some good ideas and additions on that list... for example, i'm considering Volrath's Stronghold in may monoblack version as a way to pop tombstalker from the grave to get both stalkers and nethers back to game...

ChillerKiller0815

03-28-2009, 06:06 AM

Hi Guys,
Yesterday I won a 15 people high quality turnament in Germany with the following list:

CARDS (34)
4*Small Pox
1*Pox
3*P.Deed
4*Sinkhole
4*Hymn to Tourach
4*Innocent Blood
1*Raven´s Crime
4*Life from the Loam
2*Eternal Witness
4*Mox Diamond
2*Phyrexian Totem
1*Epochrasite

LANDS(26)
5*Swamp
1*Forest
1*Urborg,Tomb of Y.
4*Wasteland
4*Bayou
2*Mishra´s Factory
1*Volrath´s Stronghold
2*Tranquil Thicket
1*Barren Moor
2*Polluted Delta
2*Bloodstained Mire
1*Windswept Heath

SB(15)
4*Leyline of the Void
3*Krosan Grip
1*Pernicious Deed
3*Diabolic Edict
2*Damnation
2*Engineered Plague

Match1: Ichorid
Game 1:
Ichorid combos turn 1, I die. 0-1

Game2:
I start with LotV, Swamp, Mox, Hymn, He drops. 1-1

Game3:
I keep a hand with LotV a Mox and 5 Land including Wasteland. I might have said a little too quickly that I keep, because my opponent knew I had LotV and mulliganed to a 5 cards hand including Chain of Vapor and Land.
He starts by playing Land +Chain, bouncing my LotV. Next turn I land a Mox and waste his land. He: Draw go. I drop land and go. After that he gets a few cards in his grave but can´t go off because of missing resources. By that time I dropped my Leyline again and had an Totem in play. Due to my hand destruction and Landdestruction he can´t bounce and go off the same turn while I can always drop my Leyline again the following turn. I win. 2-1

I was very happy how this game went, because normally Ichorid is very resilient vs LD and his happy for discard. Leyline and Totem were my MVP´s during this match. Mox did a great job too by giving me an accelerant for LotV (so did Totem).

Match2: Suicide Black (Won last turnament)
Game1:
I start. Land Raven´s Crime. He drops land,go. I play Land, Sinkhole. He plays Land Ritual Hyppie. I play Bayou, Small Pox + retraced Crime, My opponent is left with nothing and I have a lonely Loam in hand for Loam/Crime softlock. I draw some beater and LD. 1-0

Game2:
He starts with Swamp, Ritual, Ritual, Hyppie, Shade and smiles. I laugh because I answer with Swamp, Mox, Innocent Blood, Innocent Blood and laugh even lauder. LOL, ROFL….he doesn´t find into the game anymore after that. 2-0

Match3: Burn
Game1:
He burns me to death. Period. 0-1

Game2: (Out goes Deed vs Krosan)
I start Land, Mox, Hymn and get a Land. He drops Land +Burn. I play Land and Sinkhole. He misses his Landdrop. I play Witness recurring Sinkhole. He misses landrop and starts discarding or a turn later and kept going so for a while. I used Loam-Draw-Engine to get quick Totems to finish the game. 1-1

Game3: (He boards Crypt vs Loam)
I manage to screw his manabase. He drops a crypt. I play Grip. He never got to keep more then 1 Land and I even used Pox to kill one of his single Lands!!! I kill him with a Mishra. 2-1

Match 4: Merfolk (I hoped for this match since the guy thinks Merfolkdeck is a D2B and therefor kills anything. I mean he plays the known version without Stifle/Naught(wouldn´t have cared if so). Look at my list and SB it is build to rape Creature based strategies! (I did so because we also have 2 Zoo decks, 2 Progenitius and a Painter/Naught/Stifle/Stone Deck and a thresh deck.

Game1:
Turn1: Innocent blood killing his creature
Turn2: Small Pox killing Land and creature leaving him with an Island.
Turn3: He drops Vault and can´t drop Lord. I waste.
Turn4: He misses Land drop, but plays Vial. I drop Land (Mishra) and play Loam.
Next Turn I drop Deed and he has no counters. 1-0

Game 2:
I took out 4*Sinkhole, 2*Loam, Volrath´s Stronghold for 3*Edict, 1*Deed, a single Plague, and 2 Damnations. I had great fun during the game. At some point after 10 rounds or so me killing everything he tries to play even though he counters I play a Damnation to kill his Cursecatcher so I can attack with my Totem! LOL. 2-0

Some thought´s to the Deck.

Everyone I played against, thought I play some sort of Loam deck. Therefore my grave got hated in games 2 and 3. This was so cool, because often I simply boarded out 2-3 Loams for Edicts playing a Pox deck with heaps of removal and Deed.

I thought about playing Spirit or Worm Harvest in the place Epochrasite. Being able to play games 2 and 3 without needing the graveyard was excellent. On the other side Epochrasite was never relevant. And when I did drop him the opponent was already lying on the floor and he was a 1/1. He goes. Mishra´s and Totems where really strong. Especially Totems since they stabilized my manabase and got used only when they could attack safely and therefore sealed a game in 3-4 Turn very efficiently. So +1 Mishra or +1 Totem.

Thx to Mox I didn´t miss Dark Rituals.

Raven´s Crime was strong in every game I got it because it got used multiple times every time I had it. Crime made me stay ahead and made sure an opponent couldn´t recover. So basically it solves the problem of the explosive disruption you start up with, but can´t keep up, so your opponent recovers. Crime makes every landdraw to an useful disruption peace. I will play a second.

The cyclelands showed up very frequently, but still I will add 1 or 2 for some other lands.

Stronghold was never used. I will have to play a little more to get the picture, but I can see it being exchanged for Urborg#2 or test Darkmor Salvage in its place.

I still need to try Worm Harvest, but I think he is not needed, because:
-Grave dependant
-5cc
-bad synergy with deed
-worse games 2 and 3
-feels like win more
-doesn´t help in the early game.
But I will test the card and tell you more about it.

The Sideboard needs work:
Engineered Plague was useless!
LotV was good.
Krosan Grip was Good
Edict was good
Deed is good
Damnation is win more->not needed.

Cards that could have been of bigger use:
-Funeral Charm (Good vs Combo, kills utility creatures like Lackey, Elves,…;makes your Totems connect for leathal dmg(Urborg); makes your mishra´s do nasty stuff.)-> allround talent
-Duress
-Reanimate
-Tarmogoyf (For quicker beating games 2 and 3 and the fact that you have to think about him if you play green)
-Extirpate (good vs combo and rounds up the LD nicely. Could be useful against decks packing Loam as well)

I was very pleased by this deck and I would like to see my version of this pox-deck improve. So if you like to comment or test please feel free to do so. I would like to hear some feedback concerning this deck and my findings.
THX

4eak

03-28-2009, 09:18 AM

@ ChillerKiller0815

Congratz on the finish. I'm glad to see someone else take the deck for a spin.

peace,
4eak

AcidFiend

03-29-2009, 05:43 AM

I entered a local Legacy tournament on the weekend of 18 people. It was my first constructed tournament ever (woo) so I was treating it as a learning experience.

Here's the list that I ran with. I didn't have the time/cards/testing to switch it to a G/B variant as has been discussed lately. More on that later.

4 Duress
4 The Rack
4 Dark Ritual
4 Smallpox
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Diabolic Edict
2 Powder Keg
4 Tombstalker
1 Chimderic Idol
1 Phyrexian Totem
4 Pox
17 Swamp
2 Urborg
4 Wasteland

SB:
2 Damnation
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Reanimate
1 Powder Keg
2 Extirpate

Enchantress (1-0):

Game 1: I beat him down to 10 with early Tombstalker and Rack. He stabilizes with Elephant Grass and kills me with Words of War.

Game 2: Early disruption + Rack + Tombstalker = GG. Discard kept his hand empty so Solitary couldn't get online.

Game 3: Beat him down to 3 life, Oblivion Ring on Tombstalker, Seal of Primodium takes Rack; he's on 3 life. I have a Totem and two lands. Peel a Dark Ritual to activate Totem ftw.

Thoughts: Just swap Powder Keg for Cabal Therapy/Extirpate. Matchup seems favourable.

Affinity (1-1):

I didn't test this matchup at all :\

Game 1: Early Ravager kills me before I can do much.

Game 2: 2nd turn double Hymn, 3rd turn Hymn + Rack, 4th turn Hymn + Rack. Quad Hymn is good :D

Game 3: He dumps a lot of turn 1 + 2 creatures, I die.

Thoughts: I didn't sideboard in Damnation here which was a mistake on reflection, didn't realise Affinity ran a lot of creatures. I really wanted my Edict's to be Smother's here, as Ravager is a house.

Counter Top / Goyf / Progenitus (1-2):

I don't have many notes on this one, I took a game but he had the luckiest blind Counterbalance rips srsly :( Guess it happens. Never saw the big boy though, after Hymn hit his Natural Orders.

Stax: (1-3):

Game 1: He takes 2 dmg from Ancient Tomb, we stall and counter each others threats except for a Rack thats dealing him 3 dmg a shot. 18 damage later and its shenanigans ftw!

Game 2: I make the worst mistake of my day here, not paying upkeep on Tombstalker thanks to a Magus of the Tabernacle when he's sitting on 3 and basically dead. I was just too excited to go 2-0 that I didn't concentrate.

Game 3: Massive mana flood, I lose.

Thoughts: This is pretty even / slightly favourable IMO, Powder Keg is awesome here. In future I'm going to put a counter on top of my library so I don't draw without paying upkeep when stupid Tabernacle is out. Gah!!

16-land Stompy:

I play against my best friend who's borrowing my very own budget deck. Which is cool because we both didn't do so great, but we've also played the matchup about 50 times, with Stompy being heavily favoured. I die 2-0 to Kavu Predator + Invigorate stuff. Again I wanted Smother, as Edict couldn't get the one I wanted, but it probably wouldn't have changed the outcome.

Summary:

So yeah, 1-4 but I feel I learnt heaps about how to play Pox, what decks are in my Meta, and easy mistakes and how to avoid them.

I felt Pox could do better next time with minimal changes with just better piloting from me. That said, I'd probably try Smother main (as I was advocating a few pages ago, should have stuck with it ><), potentially fitting in Edict in the board instead. I didn't see any Graveyard based decks at all, so 4 Tormod's went unused, so I'll have to scope out whether they justify a place.

Of the day I felt my worst matchup was Affinity, something a green/Deed variant could potentially shore up - I'll have to look into it :smile: I know that deck went into the Top 8 in second place, so I obviously wasn't the only one.

clavio

03-29-2009, 01:28 PM

evilfred

03-29-2009, 02:54 PM

Im thinking it may be best for pox to go with the white splash. Ghostly prison + LD is really good, and can help against some of the deck's rougher matchups (ichorid for example). Also Vindicate is pretty good I hear.

If your meta is filled with combo, staying mono black is probably the right choice. But if you expect to face things like merfolk ichorid and goblins, a splash may be necessary.

I'm not an expert about Pox but here's a list I've threw together for fun:

Pox to Plowshares
Mana
4 x Mox Diamond
3 x Phyrexian Totem
1 x Dust Bowl
1 x Flagstones of Trokair
3 x Mishra's Factory
1 x Plains
4 x Scrubland
4 x Swamp
3 x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 x Wasteland

Combo
2 x Helm of Obedience
4 x Leyline of the Void

Card Quality
3 x Enlightened Tutor
2 x Crucible of Worlds

Protection
2 x Pox
3 x Smallpox
3 x Vindicate
1 x Ghostly Prison
2 x Oblivion Ring
2 x Swords to Plowshares

Discard
4 x Duress
4 x Hymn to Tourach

Sideboard
1 x Crucible of Worlds
2 x Helm of Obedience
3 x Engineered Plague
3 x Innocent Blood
1 x Enlightened Tutor
2 x Greater Auramancy
1 x Humility
2 x Runed Halo

Little combo that everybody know of Helm + Leyline of the Void
Don't know if it's worth trying. Never playtested.

AcidFiend

03-29-2009, 09:20 PM

Gui

04-01-2009, 11:31 PM

Powder Keg can take care of Zombie tokens and low costing merfolks/goblins.

Not to mention powder keg being cast first turn with dark ritual, which is not that hard to happen if you run 3-4 kegs and 3-4 rituals, and also an open possibility for duress with it...
The only color better than black disruption against combo is blue, which i don't think that fits the deck, due to the lack of solutions that could get advantage from pox style... sure you could run a bunch of cantrips and counters as daze/fow, and splash blue, but then you would be definitely not playing pox... it would be more like an blue/black aggro-control, probably with stalkers and stuff... would look more like actual fish...
For those reasons, i think monoblack pox is still the best option we got, and the only other possible would be a green splash for deed and anti-enchant/artifact stuff, and maybe loam as support instead of crucible, which is not bad, but is not that good either because it depends a lot on the timing, and the deck lacks speed in many ways, since it's control.

Ciberon

04-05-2009, 08:42 AM

I am considering taking this onto a local tournament. What is the best sideboard versus burn in a mono-black build?

mujadaddy

04-05-2009, 03:05 PM

I am considering taking this onto a local tournament. What is the best sideboard versus burn in a mono-black build?
Lunchbreak. Burn is horrible, probably Pox's worst matchup. You need to keep up discard and land-destruction pressure, but their spells are just too cheap.

scrow213

04-05-2009, 03:14 PM

Lunchbreak. Burn is horrible, probably Pox's worst matchup. You need to keep up discard and land-destruction pressure, but their spells are just too cheap.

QFT. If you expect burn, my favorite SB plan was always a white splash with Warmth in the board. All you have to do is pull off one white mana, and burn gets wrecked.

mujadaddy

04-05-2009, 03:38 PM

I don't even think Warmth is enough, by itself. Burn can run on two lands, and :b:Pox can't keep up that pressure the entire game. Maybe if you had two out :laugh:

scrow213

04-05-2009, 03:46 PM

I don't even think Warmth is enough, by itself. Burn can run on two lands, and :b:Pox can't keep up that pressure the entire game. Maybe if you had two out :laugh:

Well Warmth means every Bolt is 1 mana for 1 damage, which severely slows the clock down for you. A second Warmth would be epic.

Jeet

04-05-2009, 04:28 PM

I am considering taking this onto a local tournament. What is the best sideboard versus burn in a mono-black build?

Sun Droplet

Ciberon

04-06-2009, 08:30 AM

I was sugested to board out the Pox package and board in Consume Spirit. What do you think?

mujadaddy

04-06-2009, 10:45 AM

I was sugested to board out the Pox package and board in Consume Spirit. What do you think?
Well, it makes sense in theory -- Pox doesn't have creatures to hit vs. Burn and 1/3 of your life is a give-away to a burn player.

But perhaps Pox isn't the card to cut. If they're tapped out and have 4 cards in hand, Pox will discard 2 of them, take 1/3 of their life, and cost them at least one land. That's hard to ignore, but also tough to justify.

Consume Spirit is mana-intensive. I run a single in my Pox maindeck, and I find it really hard to find the right time to cast it -- 3 damage is about the average it gets cast for, in my experience. Maybe if your deck runs Crucible you can get away with it. Is your list posted in this thread?

Ciberon

04-06-2009, 06:23 PM

scrow213

04-06-2009, 07:20 PM

Is there a "standard" list of cards that belongs in all Pox decks? I have played Pox casually for a long time, but I might try my hand at tournament Pox.

I would prefer to stick to mono-black, and if Sinkhole is an auto-include I probably won't play Pox, but I have seen several lists so far not running Sinkhole. Is this because of money issues or just better things to play than Sinkhole?

tylerwylie

04-07-2009, 02:09 AM

eternaldarkness

04-07-2009, 11:50 AM

First rule against burn, always side out the poxes. My own personal anti-burn card is chalice of the void. Unfortunately, it doesn't really answer Sulfuric Vortex, a card that most burn players I know sideboard in preparation for life gain.

bowvamp

04-11-2009, 02:33 PM

Now it is. Everything in this list is still being tested and subject to change.

(Mana) - 25
17 Swamp
4 Dark Ritual
4 Charcoal Diamond

(1cc Disruption) - 8
4 Duress
4 Innocent Blood

(2cc Disruption) - 11
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
3 Powder Keg

(3cc Disruption) - 7
4 Pox
3 Infest

(Win Conditions) - 9
3 Nether Spirit
3 Chimeric Idol
3 Phyrexian Totem

Sideboard - 15
2 Kaervek's Spite
4 Contamination
1 Nether Spirit
3 Persecute
4 Consume Spirit
1 Infest
Ok, hold on there...
Why charcoal diamond? You could be running essentially a better card on every level in a rav-signet.
You have alot of win-cons. Would you mind elaborating on your thoughts about why they are the best for the deck?
Why only 17 swamp? No wasteland or factory?

yakisoba

04-13-2009, 01:32 PM

Here's what I'd like to test with. Card choice notes and sideboard opinions are listed after the deck:
4 x Pox
4 x Smallpox
4 x Hymn to Tourach
4 x Duress
4 x Sinkhole
4 x Funeral Charm
3 x Nether Spirit
3 x Tombstalker
3 x Powder Keg
2 x Crucible of Worlds
35 spells

4 x Wasteland
3 x Mishra’s Factory
3 x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
15 x Swamp
25 land

Card Choices
Dark Ritual -- While not in the deck, it's worth to note why I didn't include it. The potential for first turn explosive plays is limited in this deck. The potential to use it to "recover" from a Pox is limited, since it'll be costing you card advantage in the bargain. Testing will show whether it's too slow without it.

Wasteland -- Must run this. More LD is great.

Tombstalker/Nether Spirit/Factory -- Win conditions. The factories are there in order to hedge against the chance Tombstalker interferes with Spirit's recursion. I don't believe in Phyrexian Totem, and could replace the Tombstalkers for Chimeric Totems easily.

Hymn/Duress -- Discard is great in Pox

Funeral Charm -- Interesting little card, and one of the more versatile in the deck. Note that it is synergy with Tomb of Yawgmoth, in that it can make a creature Swampwalk over. It's disruption, instant speed creature kill (for little stuff) and so forth. Nice card, IMO.

Sinkhole -- I wish I didn't have to run Sinkhole, but no other black LD comes close to this good. Must have.

Pox/Smallpox -- Core. Must have both, in most matches.

Powder Keg -- If you need it, you need it at once. It's a great reset for gangs of Goblins or Slivers or whatever.

Crucible of Worlds -- Wasteland recursion is the least of the goodness here. It also allows swamp recursion and Pox recovery. Might go up to three on these.

Sideboard
It's too much metagame dependent, but I'd think Bottle Gnomes might be a good side in to replace Pox against Burn. Gain a little life, get a blocker out there.

I'd want the fourth Keg in the side, along with some graveyard hate. Leyline of the Void would be great, I'd think. Potential to get it on table before turn 1 is huge.

Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth -- Turning all your lands black is nice, with the Mishra's and the Wastelands. Worth including.

Comments welcome. Not interested in splashing white or green, though those are both very strong choices.

bowvamp

05-14-2009, 09:35 PM

Seriously? I take a vacation from magic and when I come back, my fav. archetype hasn't even been looked at?

Ok, to spur you guys forward, let's talk SB.
We have a couple of options here (possibly more, but bear with me here...)

Infest - Good ol' glory days. This guy helps vs. tribal (excluding merfolk), don't think it's the best option but it's certainly better than single or single targeted removal.

Massacre/Spinning Darkness - These are tricky, massacre looks cool but when would you ever play it? Spinning Darkness has more promise and if you take out tombstalker it can lower your curve, immunize you to Chalice, and provide help against tribal. Still, you've gotta board out goyf...

Maze of Ith/Tabernacle - the two most commonly boarded lands. I lean towards Tabernacle because it helps more vs. swarms and has more synergy with Urborg.

Engineered Plague/Sun Droplet/Do or Die - ok, yeah two of these are basically introduced by me and supported by me, but they all serve basically the same purpuse... stopping tribal/swarms.

Extirpate - some people board this card in against dredge, but to me that seems like a waste because of how useless this card is and continues to be in terms of getting what you want it to do out of it.

Pithing Needle - tech against everything, I find it to be a waste unless the person has played pox for a long time, and knows the meta inside and out.

Dystopia - cutting edge in terms of killing 'goyf while also killing other permanent based control builds such as Quinn and Enchantress.

Chains of Mephistopheles - very limited but very powerful tech vs. cantrip based aggro control that you see running around these days.

Damnation/Haunting Echoes - Unfortunately you probably won't reach this kind of mana while retaining the use of these cards.

So waddya think?

mujadaddy

05-15-2009, 10:11 AM

Infest - Good ol' glory days. This guy helps vs. tribal (excluding merfolk), don't think it's the best option but it's certainly better than single or single targeted removal.

Massacre/Spinning Darkness - These are tricky, massacre looks cool but when would you ever play it? Spinning Darkness has more promise and if you take out tombstalker it can lower your curve, immunize you to Chalice, and provide help against tribal. Still, you've gotta board out goyf...

Maze of Ith/Tabernacle - the two most commonly boarded lands. I lean towards Tabernacle because it helps more vs. swarms and has more synergy with Urborg.

Engineered Plague/Sun Droplet/Do or Die - ok, yeah two of these are basically introduced by me and supported by me, but they all serve basically the same purpuse... stopping tribal/swarms.

Extirpate - some people board this card in against dredge, but to me that seems like a waste because of how useless this card is and continues to be in terms of getting what you want it to do out of it.

Pithing Needle - tech against everything, I find it to be a waste unless the person has played pox for a long time, and knows the meta inside and out.

Dystopia - cutting edge in terms of killing 'goyf while also killing other permanent based control builds such as Quinn and Enchantress.

Chains of Mephistopheles - very limited but very powerful tech vs. cantrip based aggro control that you see running around these days.

Damnation/Haunting Echoes - Unfortunately you probably won't reach this kind of mana while retaining the use of these cards.

So waddya think?

Chains costs a bazillion dollars -- this is why more people don't run it. Even on MWS, I'd feel super-cheap running it. Like most people who run duals should :wink:

Extirpate -- I run 2 Extirpate & 4 Leyline of the Void in my sideboard. Leyline is almost always GG when you can drop it turn zero. Extirpate is there to keep the chances of getting that grave-hate up there, as even aggressive mulliganing doesn't always guarantee the turn zero play.

For swarms -- massacre, infest, tabernacle, damnation, engineered plague... I'm finding more Merfolk are running Goyf & Faeries these days, making Type-based removal not that strong, especially combined with all the Lords they run. Infest is possibly the best of those, but for :1: more, you get Damnation... so it really depends on how you construct your mana-base and your creature-base. However, Tabernacle has its good & bad points, too -- the good is that it costs you nothing to play, and we run fewer creatures than almost anyone...the bad is that you could miss a land drop and that you run Pox effects, which kill land...

Pithing Needle -- that could work. As you say, though, you need to know what each deck packs. However, if you see an island or a tropical island, "needle on EE" is a pretty safe play :laugh:

Dystopia -- eh... either Enchantress will steamroll you or you'll overpower them... and Dystopia only hits one permanent a turn. I run 3 Perish in my sideboard.

Haunting Echoes -- eh... too dependent on the opponent having cards in the graveyard. Also, it doesn't rip the cards out of their hand. And it costs five :wink:

***On a related note, although the Goyfless Tournament isn't over yet, I have zero chance of hitting the top tables -- two opponents not showing up, generating draws, hurt that a lot.

But I played my version of a Pox deck, and won at least 1 game of every match, even against what I would consider bad matchups: mono-U control and Landstill. A better draw here or there could've made all the difference in the world, as except for one of the mono-U games, I was completely capable of winning (he got soooo many counters in his draws :laugh: ).

In my completely unprofessional estimation, a well-constructed Pox deck is at least tier 2.

Mystical_Jackass

05-15-2009, 03:29 PM

I have got to say, I love this deck. I still need some factories in my version of POX, but I'm gettin' there ;P

I have to say, I never planned on it originally but now I love maindecking extirpate. It's just so good, I couldn't tell you times I've dark ritual first turn, then either duress or hymn of tourach.. dropping someone's countertop, goyf, armageddon, loam etc. followed by an extirpate. It can just cripple decks. Worst case scenario, its a discard outlet but I can't see it not being useful in some say.

I also threw in 3 syphon life & Pains Reward though. So basically the first couple turns I disrupt my opponent while our life both drops down to like 10 or so, except my deck is designed to deal with it allowing a nether spirit to chump indeffinitely. Due to the nature of the deck, if I play pains reward when I'm ahead in life generally that's enough card advantage to end it for most non-burn decks (against those its discard outlet). I've tested against my friends U/G countertop and gedon stax, the card wins games. After the first couple turns, or initial disruptions, the games I did/didn't win were almost dictated by whether I got that card off once we were in topdeck mode. They know if I'm at 10 life and they're at 6, ie they can't afford to lose 4 life in the chance I might syphon life or trample over with totem @.@ I love the psychological battle lol, sorta a damned if you do or dont situation, 'cause counterspell cant battle retrace 4 ever >.<
That's my 2 cents

mujadaddy

05-15-2009, 03:44 PM

@Pain's Reward -- I considered that card -- honestly, I did -- but I figured it was too much choice for the opponent. Would you care to detail some play-throughs you've made with it?

@Syphon Life -- Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. I don't think I ever thought about this one. That can certainly replace the single Consume Spirit I'm running, and maybe I can swap another slot or two...

Mystical_Jackass

05-15-2009, 05:03 PM

Sure, np.

So basically, what I noticed was.. Pox and Smallpox do an amazing job, but there's always the fundamental problem that some cards gotta be sacraficed as a discard outlet (DOH!) so coming up with effective discard outlets was key. Nether spirit is friggin awesome, but as good at it is you're only running two. This "might" account for maybe one POX, but you're also running smallpox too so balancing out with syphon life not only provides that right away, but it provides me another infinitely reuseable source to use on top of using your spirits, totem, factories, w/e.

Okay, early game is pretty self explanatory, a lot of cards getting discarded. You can almost ignore syphon till mid game. Midgame it can start to get unpredictable going back and forth in topdeck mode some games, but syphon life really shines then, especially with crucible in play, because it allows you to make use of otherwise bad midgame land draws, and the incredible thing is you can STILL discard your factory/wasteland/swamp to syphon life, then immediately recur it with crucible. So you didn't waste your factory & you gained a 4 life threshold. When I'd draw into pains reward I'd commonly have more life, this card allows you to abuse your life in a pretty evil way 'cause it comes down to.. you can't bet what you don't have lol If your at 8 life and they're at 6, they can't bet 6 life. I've taken a 10 life hit before, came back and win.. so yeah, the card wins games. A friend told me to put more than 2 in, but I'm not sure about it yet

mujadaddy

05-15-2009, 05:10 PM

So you always cast it with the intention of paying the life & getting the cards? Do you ever just let the opponent lose the life, then swing into/discard him?

(My version lacks Crucible, as I didn't want to be dependent on the GY for ANYTHING... but a 4-pt lifeswing that I can recur with a land is worth a little GY dependency.)

Mystical_Jackass

05-15-2009, 07:32 PM

So you always cast it with the intention of paying the life & getting the cards? Do you ever just let the opponent lose the life, then swing into/discard him?

YES. You deffinitely would only want to cast it for your benefit only, however most of the time it will be. I've thought about it, it is possible you could sucker them down to 2 life, then try to finish them the next turn but its so risky, knowing how powerful some of these other tier 1 decks are it'd be very very risky, what if you give them a brainstorm, fow, goyf and a land.. then its their turn.. you'd be like.. craaap rofl

This is not a late game deck at all... like, pretty much if I'm in late game topdeck mode and the're at 13 to my 5 life, something went horribly wrong lol, this deck is just designed to be able to recover faster where you'd have the life advantage, what pains reward does is abuses that life advantage so you don't end up falling flat to countertop/stax etc and lose after getting them down to 4 life lol.

Clark Kant

05-15-2009, 11:35 PM

Mystical_Jackass

05-16-2009, 12:58 AM

Wanted to post my latest list. Its been awesome.

4 x Pox
4 x Smallpox
4 x Hymn to Tourach
4 x Innocent Blood
4 x Sinkhole
4 x Wretched Banquet
4 x Chimeric Idol
4 x Phyrexian Totem
3 x Powder Keg
35 Spells

4 x Wasteland
3 x Mishra?s Factory
4 x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
14 x Swamp
25 Land

That needs some work, mainly balance your deck out you dont need so many 4-of's.

You also seem to be overlooking the biggest overall concept of Pox, the sac outlets.. you have no form of recursion, aka 2 nether spirits etc., to sac to your pox & smallpox, and moreso... if you can afford 4x wasteland, you can deffinitely afford 2 crucible. Urborg is legendary btw, Don't use 4 they'll cancel eachother out use 2 at most.

What I'm trying to say is, the point is with pox you're sorta disrupting yourself to take them out too, except you can recover faster... you have no form of recovery/recursion built into your deck. So you're f'ing yourself over just as much as them. Factories/idols are great but not good enough on their own to drop most decks.

Also, I noticed you have no dark rituals & no Duress. I think that's a huge mistake. Being able to turn1 dark ritual + totem + duress, or dark rit + duress + hymn cripples most decks and adds the speed you need to excel.. lets just say dark ritual is too good not to use, and so is duress. Skipping turn1 is not an option to be competetive

Clark Kant

05-16-2009, 01:44 AM

Im typing this on my cell so I can't say much but I disagree. The deck never loses to aggro and does great against aggro control which is the meta I designed it to beat.

So clearly speed is not an issue.

Extra Urborgs are what you sac or discard to pox effects. With 7 colorless lands and Pox's BBB cc, 3 Urborgs are the bare minimum.

But taking your advice , here's what Im trying.

4 x Pox
4 x Smallpox
4 x Hymn to Tourach
4 x Innocent Blood
4 x Sinkhole
2/4 x Wretched Banquet
4 x Chimeric Idol
3 x Phyrexian Totem
3 x Nether Spirit
4/2 x Duress
36 Spells

4 x Wasteland
2/3 x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
18/17 x Swamp
24 Land

mujadaddy

05-16-2009, 02:47 PM

I really dislike the Wretched Banquet. The scenario I keep coming up with is that they have a Bird of Paradise and a Tarmogoyf down :laugh:

Clark Kant

05-16-2009, 03:27 PM

Its the exact same as innocent blood or pox in that example, you have enough removal 14-16 that you can kill every creature they play.

mujadaddy

05-16-2009, 10:10 PM

Its the exact same as innocent blood or pox in that example, you have enough removal 14-16 that you can kill every creature they play.

Well, as Innocent Blood, yes. Pox? No. Innocent Blood & Banquet are 1-for-1 cards. Although I'm sure the extra removal helps in an aggro situation, I prefer to think of the advantages the Small/Poxes give as the focus of the deck, not 1-for-1 removal.

Have you abandoned your :b::w: version?

Clark Kant

05-16-2009, 11:25 PM

For now yes. There's more aggro and creatures now. This is better vs aggro.

Mystical_Jackass

05-17-2009, 02:47 PM

I just don't see how you're gonna outrace those decks, without rituals you're looking 3rd turn till you get your beaters.

Without crucible you have no clear advantage over them in terms of recovery, you wastland them.. they wasteland your urborg.. your both stuck drawing for lands. You Pox, your both drawing for lands, its a cointoss.

Without first turn Duress/dark ritual, be prepared to get raped by countertop+ sensei's. If you can't remove their countertop first turn, their Chalice of the Void, their trinisphere, their Manabond, their reanimate, etc. it could be distasterous.. deffinitely an uphill battle all game. Turn 2 is just too late man..

Obviously we could sit here all day talking about how to beat on crappy decks, but I'd rather discuss how are you gonna beat "those" decks out there. Your deck doesn't have the speed or card advantage to beat control and it isn't fast enough to outrace zoo. If you want to beat goblins or merfolk, you have a sideboard for that but everything else its just excessive.

coraz86

05-17-2009, 03:16 PM

I like the points M_J just made. I would ask a few things though.

Scanning the early pages of the thread, I noticed that somebody tried to build a budget version of the deck. I don't like the controlling builds that have been thrown up here of late; I wonder if they should be scaled back a little bit and thrown on the budget/kids' forum (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9729). You really only need to replace Sinkhole and Wasteland in terms of money; we could retool the deck a little then to accommodate a lesser skill level, too, so kids/new players could start with this idea and build off the shell.

As far as people who go to serious tourneys and don't want to get donkey-punched by budget-less decks, I think we need to try a new tack. One thing we might do is make this like the old Extended builds of Netherhaups. A google search only yields a bunch of Masques/Invasion Regionals articles, but I seem to remember the old Extended build going something like

3 Nether Spirit

4 Mox Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Jokulhaups
4 Cursed Scroll
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Diabolic Edict
4 Terminate
some number of Phyrexian Arenas

I want to say that this list is from the Pro Tour that happened right after Extended rotated into Rath Block on up and Sixth Ed, but don't quote me.
I realize the dissynergy of Jokulhaups and the artifacts, but I think that's an idea we can build from to patch some of the holes the mono-black builds have been facing. (Obliterate, for instance, makes me really happy, and I think Wildfire has a place if we can protect it with Duress and such).

The other route I can see the deck going is aggro-control, using small efficient beaters and just running Pox to keep them on their heels long enough to win. I've done this with Eva Green with significant success, and I think we could resurrect Machinehead with a similar idea.

mujadaddy

05-17-2009, 03:45 PM

I realize that's not really a "list" per se, but getting up to 6 mana is kind of tough to do in a properly constructed Pox deck. Of course, the "list" you recalled doesn't have any Poxes in it, either :laugh: ... Also, Jokulhaups doesn't hit Enchantments, which right there makes it only a half-solution.

In my opinion, and I'm sure there are people who will disagree, Pox is an aggro-control deck. That designation will of course depend on your list of win-conditions, but Nether Spirit & Idols/Totems are creatures, after all. BTW, what was Machinehead? :confused: I'm not up on all the historical names :tongue:

Mystical_Jackass

05-17-2009, 07:43 PM

I think red would only mix with POX using aggro creatures with flashback/unearth as a discard outlet. Even still, the mana could be a problem but LED is a nice touch.

I see what they're trying to do with Jokulhaups, sorta like a gedon stax all in one. Try it out I guess.. the casting cost is the only thing that turns me away, too situational.. its hard for me to assume you'll get that perfect hand: haups, ritual, LED, etc. 6cc's pushing it a lil much :P cool idea though

coraz86

05-18-2009, 01:53 AM

Tom van de Logt played Machinehead at Worlds 2001 (http://wizards.com/sideboard/event.asp?event=Worlds2001). That's kind of what I meant by aggro control; I really look at the Pox builds you guys have been batting around as more control, period, like Necro was once upon a time. I think (and I'm glad I'm not alone here) that Pox is best for keeping your opponent on their heels while you beat down. For instance, my current list is

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tombstalker
3 Hypnotic Specter

4 Dark Ritual
4 Pox
4 Thoughtseize
4 Unmask
3 Smother
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Polluted Delta
4 Bayou
4 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
8 Swamp

The Hyppie needs to go, but I haven't decided what for. EE has crapped in my cornflakes often enough that Nantuko Shade is not an option. I like the idea of Shriekmaw, although it doesn't answer as many threats as I'd like it to.
I went 4-3 at a tournament at Play the Game, Read the Story with more or less this list (and, take nothing from the guy who beat me, but one of those losses was round 7 when I just was tired and crabby and was just going through the motions). Goblins was bad news; you need a good draw to win there (one of the reasons I'm considering Shriekmaw).

I have played at least five hundred games with this deck, and Bob has flipped a Stalker twice. Each of them is stupid good on their own, and you can't ignore their awesomeness on the off chance something bad might possibly happen if you have both. (Admittedly the Tops help a bit here, but they help the deck's long game anyway, so it's not like you'd cut them if you dropped either Bob or Tombstalker.)

Also note that Urborg is not playable in Legacy. People stretch their mana bases pretty thin in Legacy; you don't want to help them get a color they wouldn't have access to otherwise. You also want them to go "I'm at three, I'm not glad to see this fetchland" instead of "cool, another colorless mana." Urborg helps them a million times more than it helps you; no matter how good it looks on paper, leave it in your chaff binder.

coraz86

05-18-2009, 02:05 AM

Nether Spirit & Idols/Totems are creatures, after all.

Nether Spirit is an excruciatingly slow win condition for a non-blue deck. It'd be one thing to try to resurrect Go-Mar (which, honestly, would probably turn out to just be a bad variant of Landstill if you weren't really careful), but when most of your removal is symmetrical and your win is a two-power dude....that's not aggro-control. Aggro-control is efficient beaters with efficient disruption, like Thresh and Team America (and, before them, things like Macey Rock and Domain Zoo). I would call the R/W Kithkinish deck (I think it's being called Boat Brew, but don't ask me why) aggro-control; it's got efficient dudes like Figure of Destiny with cheap backup like Path to Exile and Incinerate. That isn't as good as you get in Legacy, of course, but a deck with six awkward three-mana threats isn't aggro control.
I love Nether Spirit as much as anybody, and I'd kill to get them back out of my binder. I just don't think Pox is the way to do that, not unless you start running Sword of Fire and Ice/Light and Shadow or Loxodon Warhammer or something else to make them game-winning.

Raindown

05-18-2009, 11:00 AM

Also note that Urborg is not playable in Legacy. People stretch their mana bases pretty thin in Legacy; you don't want to help them get a color they wouldn't have access to otherwise. You also want them to go "I'm at three, I'm not glad to see this fetchland" instead of "cool, another colorless mana." Urborg helps them a million times more than it helps you; no matter how good it looks on paper, leave it in your chaff binder.

Running 4 factories and 4 wastelands I don't see how I'd get all the black mana required. I agree, people cut it close in legacy with the mana. Not sure that I would want to cut the factories out that can come in for the win. Perhaps, more benefit than damage here?

mujadaddy

05-18-2009, 11:30 AM

Running 4 factories and 4 wastelands I don't see how I'd get all the black mana required.coraz86's list doesn't have the Factories. Mine doesn't have the Wastelands (I don't think the tempo loss is worth it in a deck that's already doing symmetrical destruction). I have to agree with coraz86 about Urborg, though. I just run 19 swamps & 4 misha's factories in my mono:b: Pox, and that's always been good to me (except when I have a hand with 2 swamps & 2 factories, and I drop a factory and then my first draw is a Hymn :laugh: ).

@coraz86: It made me sad to cut Hyppie too, but it has to be done in a Pox deck. :cry: ...I like more removal...and I just noticed -- WHERE are the smallpoxes???

Point taken on aggro-control. I suppose I was thinking about the win condition, not the flow of the game. Also, I was speaking generically about the creatures that have historically graced Pox -- I cut Nether Spirit not long after I put in Tombstalkers :wink: ...

Lord Darkview

05-18-2009, 11:35 AM

Depending on your build, anywhere from 17 to 21 sources of black mana are right. Then again, I don't even run Wasteland. I run 21 swamps straight, since nonbasic hate then is irrelevant to me, and I can generally reliably see my 3rd black source on my third turn to play Pox if I want to.

I too feel Nether Spirit is kind of slow. I run 3 of them, 4 Epochrasite, and 4 Tombstalker. Nether Spirit feels like a winner when I discard it to Pox or Smallpox, when I flashback Cabal Therapy, or when I get a Contamination lock going. However, as good as those are versus combo and control, against aggro Cabal Therapy and Contamination are rather dull draws, making Nether Spirit less impressive.

I personally feel the core Pox package is 4 Duress, 4 Hymn, 4 Smallpox, 4 Pox. Others run less Pox these days. In a control-heavy metagame, additional mana-denial (Sinkhole) or less expensive but still effective discard are excellent. Against aggro, Innocent Blood and the like are far more effective. The problem is that the deck really needs to be built heavily toward one way or the other to take advantage of it.

Still one of the more enjoyable decks for me to play (and despised in my circle).

mujadaddy

05-18-2009, 11:48 AM

The problem is that the deck really needs to be built heavily toward one way or the other to take advantage of it.Totally agree. Unfortunately, there's not a ton that can be done against a deck full of counterspells. Other deck types are much easier to game against.

(and despised in my circle).No kidding. Pox is one of those cards, especially in a multi-player free-for-all, that makes everyone groan when it's played :laugh:

Raindown

05-18-2009, 12:05 PM

The problem is that the deck really needs to be built heavily toward one way or the other to take advantage of it.

Perhaps, two raven's crime paired with crucible of worlds, helps against both aggro and control? Unless they are already playing off the top of their deck. Is there no middle ground? Perhaps threats on the ground are not as dangerous as enchantment/artifact based ones?

mujadaddy

05-18-2009, 12:27 PM

Perhaps, two raven's crime paired with crucible of worlds, helps against both aggro and control? Unless they are already playing off the top of their deck. The real problem with Raven's Crime is that they get to choose what they discard, so early in the game it's not as profitable as say Duress/Thoughtseize/Hymn. By the middle of the game, unless you're applying insane land destruction pressure, which in my experience isn't possible to maintain, they know you're going to Raven's Crime them, so they dump their hand or keep back chaff.

Is there no middle ground? Perhaps threats on the ground are not as dangerous as enchantment/artifact based ones?Enchantments & artifacts are a problem because it's tough to get rid of them, especially in a mono:b: Pox deck -- splashing :g: for Krosan Grip, splashing :w: for Vindicate, etc., is usually how people have compensated for :b:'s lack of Enchantment/Artifact hate. The other way to deal with Enchantments & Artifacts is to ignore them and to run more threats & discard... but with Raven's Crime, they're not going to choose to discard their silver bullet.

Mystical_Jackass

05-18-2009, 01:06 PM

Nether Spirit is an excruciatingly slow win condition for a non-blue deck. It'd be one thing to try to resurrect Go-Mar (which, honestly, would probably turn out to just be a bad variant of Landstill if you weren't really careful), but when most of your removal is symmetrical and your win is a two-power dude....that's not aggro-control. Aggro-control is efficient beaters with efficient disruption, like Thresh and Team America (and, before them, things like Macey Rock and Domain Zoo). I would call the R/W Kithkinish deck (I think it's being called Boat Brew, but don't ask me why) aggro-control; it's got efficient dudes like Figure of Destiny with cheap backup like Path to Exile and Incinerate. That isn't as good as you get in Legacy, of course, but a deck with six awkward three-mana threats isn't aggro control.
I love Nether Spirit as much as anybody, and I'd kill to get them back out of my binder. I just don't think Pox is the way to do that, not unless you start running Sword of Fire and Ice/Light and Shadow or Loxodon Warhammer or something else to make them game-winning.

Urborg does not benefit them more than you, it allows you to recur wastlands & factories while allowing you to Pox over the top.

Nether spirit is a bad finisher prolly cause it isn't a finisher? Its just there to hold them off buying you time. It costs nothing.. HMMM something has to be discarded since you're running 8 different Pox, how bout the one that costs nothing to play? lol Everything you own, from your land to the totem boosting your mana is a weapon. Infinitely reusable weapons. You disrupt them with innocent blood and Pox dropping both of yours life totals past 10.. as soon as there's an opponening you activate your totems, factories, etc and unleash;

Enchantments & artifacts are a problem because it's tough to get rid of them, especially in a mono Pox deck -- splashing for Krosan Grip, splashing for Vindicate

I really think the best solution is running extirpate. Your best bet is to disrupt them with duress &/or hymn, then follow it with extirpate to remove their tops.. loams, w/e Splashing other colors seems like it'd just add more problems than solve

mujadaddy

05-18-2009, 01:15 PM

Urborg does not benefit them more than you, it allows you to recur wastlands & factories while allowing you to Pox over the top....Do you mean Crucibles instead of Urborg? The argument is that Urborg turns Fetches into :1: ...and it actually helps Black decks, and decks that don't run Black that do run Engineered Explosives.

Raindown

05-18-2009, 01:37 PM

I think worrying about Urborg helping them is like trying to cover every match up. First not every deck runs black. (ok well a lot do:rolleyes: ).

Still, foreclosing win conditions (i.e. factory) I think is silly. Everyone needs their mana fix. Whether that is duals, fetch, Urborg....the fixes always up you up to threats. (wasteland, Magus of the Moon, Moon, Needle). Its a trade off that the other player is risking as well.

coraz86

05-18-2009, 02:36 PM

@M_J; this is Legacy. If you're going to a serious tournament, you don't have room for cards that are just good enough (which your defense of Nether Spirit claims, and I already knew). I like L_D's Contamination-lock idea, and I can get behind a discussion of that, but this isn't Sealed Deck; you can't just play to not lose. That's why you run things like Tombstalker (which is big enough to block and kill a lot of things).
If you're that worried about killing your own dudes, run a Stronghold; I run one by reflex when I play controllish black decks, and I've never had trouble hitting it when I needed it.

@Raindown; Urborg does hurt you in every matchup. Everybody in Legacy runs fetchlands, which wouldn't tap for mana if you didn't have an Urborg down, and part of the power of mana denial like Wasteland and Sinkhole is (drum roll) the tendency of decks to run exactly as much as they need. Look at It's the Fear or Thresh or any other three or four color deck. If you can keep them off of a key color for even two turns, that's often your window to take over. Especially if you're running threats like Phyrexian Totem and Nether Spirit....which are easy to Deed or EE away. Urborg makes their game easier as often, if not more often, as it does yours.
This is also one reason I'm not a big fan of Factory; they're too easy to kill. I will say that they are a huge help in Landstill, which is an uphill battle to begin with.

@L_D; I had never thought of Epochrasite, for some reason. I like that. How is that working? It still strikes me as being a little slow because of the suspend time, but it does hit for a bunch and it's irritating to get rid of.

I'd again raise the issue of Shriekmaw, especially if you're willing to run a Stronghold. It routinely gets around Counterbalance, unless they're floating a FoW (which they typically would rather be holding in hand), it can be used turn 2 if you need it, and three power with fear isn't awful. I've only seen it used in Survival lists though, which is why I'm not sure if it can carry it's own in this thing.

mujadaddy

05-18-2009, 02:43 PM

This is also one reason I'm not a big fan of Factory; they're too easy to kill. I will say that they are a huge help in Landstill, which is an uphill battle to begin with.I'm a believer in Factory, as a spell-slot, not a land-slot. It helps to keep it around post-Poxing, or even to activate to sac as a creature to keep your Tombstalker around.

I'd again raise the issue of Shriekmaw. I've only seen it used in Survival lists though, which is why I'm not sure if it can carry it's own in this thing.

I run 2 Shriekmaw. Depending on the matchup they might be emergency Terrors, or they might get cast for the full amount, in which case the game is almost always sealed in Pox's favor.

Mystical_Jackass

05-18-2009, 08:29 PM

@M_J; this is Legacy. If you're going to a serious tournament, you don't have room for cards that are just good enough

This is Legacy? I thought this was 1.5 err.. I'm so confused, where am I? lol
Man I was bout to say, this deck needs more Cntract from below and black lotus :wink:

I like your idea using Tombstalker though, I've actually thought about dropping like 2 of them in my deck. I guess to each his own, I just see it as... you're commonly gonna have at least 3 cards that you'll have to discard whether you like it or not, might as well have it work in your favor. Nether spirits all part of the gameplan he isn't a powerhouse, but he's there every single turn and you generally can't get rid of him unless rfg. It's not that I'm no playing to win believe me, I'm just playing around the principles of the deck,and one principle is that there will be cards you'll have to pitch

Clark Kant

05-19-2009, 09:57 AM

As someone who's played Pox on and off and for 2+ years now, Urborg absolutely does not benefit your opponent more than you.

Crucibles and Factories are optional but Wasteland is an absolute must play in Pox in any meta with a reasonable amount of nonbasics.

And not playing Urborgs in any list that...

a.) Runs both Factories and Wastelands.

b.) Revolves around multiple BB and BBB casting cost cards that are core components of the deck

c.) Has several built in ways that automatically get rid of any duplicate Urborgs (sac them or discard them to pox effects).

Is downright ridiculous and foolish.

The most popular colors in the format are blue (fow), green (goyf) and it seems that even white(stp)/red(burn, goblins, zoo) are more popular than black. So purposefully raping your own mana base on the off chance that your opponent plays black and that they get a marginal benefit from urborg, still not comparable to the benefit you get from it is a mistake.

I could see not playing Urborg if you're only play ~ 3 colorless lands or so. But in the many lists out there that play ~7 colorless lands along side 11+ BB casting cost cards and 4 BBB casting cost cards that often have you saccing your own lands and discarding your own cards, not playing ~3 Urborg is a deck building flaw, plain and simple.

Nether Spirit is not a bad card at all. If your build can support Tombstalker (no Innocent Blood or Wretched Banquets) then obviously opt for Tombstalker, but if your meta is one that demands several cheap effecient (1cc) removal that make Tombstalker unsustainable, then Spriit is fantastic. Cards like Sacred Mesa make it into control decks, because inspite of being slow clocks, speed doesn't matter when your deck design ensures that the average game lasts for 15+ turns. Pox is very similar in that respect. The average game that I play with this deck lasts for 15 turns atleast. In that time, playing a 2/2 that you get for free and that recurs for free automatically and is immune to everything outside of StP is worth it.

Mystical_Jackass

05-19-2009, 10:13 AM

Hey Clark,

Have you ever tested out Avatar of Discord? It almost seems like an ok idea in a deck like this if played right, wanted to know if you played around with the idea b4

eternaldarkness

05-19-2009, 10:22 AM

I haven't been as active here as I'd like to be...real life + other games have been cutting into my mtg time. :rolleyes:

In any case, I third the anti-urborg sentiment. I admit, I have played with 4 Urborg + 4 Factory + 4 wasteland package and I really love the redundancy this gives you (4 more threats and 4 more disruption). However, like everyone else here has pointed out, Urborg can randomly screw you over. Helping your opponent's mana issues is a big strike against Urborg. I've encountered this problem enough times that I can no longer ignore this drawback. There was even a game some time ago where an opponent's Urborg got me out of an unwinnable situation.

The other thing about Urborg is that people have a tendency to just plug in Urborgs in their deck and expect it to solve all of their mana problems. Relying on Urborg to do so is asking to get color screwed with a timely waste/sinkhole. Urborg is extremely fragile in this environment. Against unknown opponents, I always mull hands which have urborg, waste, factory as lands.

I think the key is balance. Go ahead and use Urborgs to help support that waste/factory mana base but build your deck so that even if Urborg gets nuked, you can easily rebound from it. For me this means at least 17 basic swamps. This leaves around 6-8 slots for nonbasics. Go ahead and squeeze in those factories/wastes/urborgs/strongholds.

I also suppory the anti-nether spirit sentiment. When the best the card can do for you is maintain card parity with pox while the deck itself is wanting for another real win condition, the card slot should be questioned.

Clark Kant

05-19-2009, 11:00 AM

If you are playing 4 Wasteland and 4 Factories, not playing Urborg is atleast twenty times more likely to screw you over than playing Urborg does. Yes I've been in the situation where Urborg did end up hurting me, but given how often it can save your ass in builds that go balls to the walls with Factories and Wastelands, it's a risk that is absolutely 100% warranted. Risk is the very nature of Pox. If you're not willing to take chances, you should be playing a different deck.

If your argument is that playing Factories is unneccesary and thus allowing you to get away without playing 3 Urborg, I compltely agree with you. The Factory + Crucible plan is probably not worth it esp if your meta is heavy on nonbasic hate. But if your build for whatever reason is playing 4 Wasteland and 4 Factories, then you will lose far more games by not playing 3 Urborg, than by playing 3 Urborg.

Hey Clark,

Have you ever tested out Avatar of Discord? It almost seems like an ok idea in a deck like this if played right, wanted to know if you played around with the idea b4

No, I've never played Avatar of Discord. It seems pretty janky though. I suppose it works if you have Nether Spirit in hand or multiple lands in hand and a Crucible in play, but its too vulnerable anyways imo to justify the drawback.

mujadaddy

05-19-2009, 11:05 AM

I also suppory the anti-nether spirit sentiment. When the best the card can do for you is maintain card parity with pox while the deck itself is wanting for another real win condition, the card slot should be questioned.That's one reason I decided against it -- without haste, it's not a powerful kill condition, even over the long term. It's the question: How many creatures, including Nether Spirit do you have in the deck? Are you likely to see 2 of them into the GY at once? Well, if Nether Spirit + (any other creature) are in your GY, you've lost any reason to have run Nether Spirit in the first place!

The other reason is Tombstalker, delving cards out of the game.

@Clark re: Urborg -- If I were running 7+ colorless lands, I'd have Urborgs in my deck. I only run 4 (Factory) because I gave up concentrating on Land-D, a tough strategy to maintain in my experience, in order to run more threats and answers.

@Clark re: "if your meta is one that demands several cheap effecient (1cc) removal that make Tombstalker unsustainable, then Spriit is fantastic." -- Umm, "StP on Spirit"? What meta doesn't have StP around?

++++++

On Land Destruction as a strategy: Sinkhole & Wasteland are powerful, no question. However, Legacy is a format where spells cost 0,1 and 2, and bombs cost 3 & 4. YOU CAN'T STOP ANYONE with mana denial. You can slow them down, but in my experience and for my play style, I think dedicated Land Destruction is overrated. I play 2 Pox 4 Smallpox, primarily for the discard & creature hate. I'm much more concerned with other things than lands. There are corner cases where I would need more land destruction, but versus most decks, I don't miss it at all versus having more threats.

Clark Kant

05-19-2009, 11:10 AM

@Clark re: "if your meta is one that demands several cheap effecient (1cc) removal that make Tombstalker unsustainable, then Spriit is fantastic." -- Umm, "StP on Spirit"? What meta doesn't have StP around?

By 1cc removal, I'm referring to you playing Innocent Blood and Wretched Banquet to deal with blazing fast aggro, not your opponents playing StP.

I'm saying that if your meta demands that you play Innocent Blood and possibly Banquet, and you're not running fetchlands that fill up your yard quickly any ways, Tombstalker starts to become unsustainable. Sorry for any confusion.

About everything else, I agree with you. If you're not playing 4 colorless mana sources max, then Urborg isn't vital though even then I would still probably play 1-2 Urborg along with 17-18 basic swamps. And dedicated ld is just only one possible strategy you can pursue, and if LD is not a core component of your deck, then you can get away without Wastelands.

mujadaddy

05-19-2009, 11:20 AM

By 1cc removal, I'm referring to you playing Innocent Blood and Wretched Banquet to deal with blazing fast aggro, not your opponents playing StP.

I'm saying that if your meta demands that you play Innocent Blood and possibly Banquet, and you're not running fetchlands that fill up your yard quickly any ways, Tombstalker starts to become unsustainable. Sorry for any confusion.
Ohhhh, I gotcha. (I wouldn't think Banquet would be a problem though -- first it targets, second, Tombstalker has fairly high power.)

I don't run fetches b/c I think the life loss is too much along with the "suicide" nature of Pox. That brings up the question -- in a mono:b: list, can fetches get you any kind of advantage with Pox Tricks? I don't think they can... :frown: ...After Poxes, I'm not always sad to see land in my draws. But I could be persuaded otherwise :smile:

Clark Kant

05-19-2009, 11:43 AM

Fetches only main advantages in monoB lists are that they fill up your yard for Tombstalker, and to a lesser extent they combo with Crucible to make sure you make a land drop every turn.

Both are semi-useful functions and supporting Tombstalker is actually extremely valuable so if your build plays both Crucibles and Tombstalkers, I would still play fetchlands even in monoB lists. But I agree with you, the lifeloss is a pain so fetches probably aren't worth it in monoB lists outside of lists that play both Crucible and Tombstalker. But if you're playing Crucible, you're almost certainly playing both Factories and Wastelands, and in such a list, 3 Urborg is essential as well, and that itself eases the pain of the fetches a bit.

mujadaddy

05-19-2009, 11:47 AM

Hmm, I'm a big fan of Tomby, but I only run a single Crucible. Would they replace swamps 1-for-1? My lands would be, in that case, 4 fetch, 15 swamps, 4 Mishra's Factory. Is that just crazytalk, or what? The lifeloss is very relevant, I think...

Clark Kant

05-19-2009, 11:52 AM

I've never played a configuration similar to yours (though it seems solid) so I honestly don't know. I might try 1-2 Urborg and 3-4 fetchlands in there instead of just 4 fetchlands. But once again, I'm not speaking from experience.

mujadaddy

05-19-2009, 12:02 PM

Well, the point of having fetches in mono-colored is not to color-fix but rather to thin out land-draws, so I wouldn't think Urborg would be a bonus -- I can just crack the fetch to get black mana if I want to.

My mental debate is whether a straight 1-for-1 replacement of fetches for swamps is capable of conferring any advantage to a Pox deck, or if it makes any sense to replace spells for fetches for Pox shenanigans. At this point, my feeling is that it isn't worth it to run them at all.

Raindown

05-19-2009, 01:21 PM

Brainstorming here over the land debate....:really:

If I were to say...drop my Urborgs and factories and just run swamps and wastes, would that be counter productive as I run three Crucibles? :confused:

I really only use it so I can use the lands I draw to play any retrace cards in my graveyard (yes I run two "horrible" ravens crime), instead of having to play them (from my hand at least).

matamagos

05-19-2009, 01:29 PM

Raindown

05-19-2009, 01:42 PM

just a brainstorming but... has anyone tried golgari thug in a list with tombstalker and crucible???

Usually when I have played pox I have had difficulty in finding a finisher when I achieve board control. If we discard the thug in the early game with a pox effect later on we can dredge him when it is necessary to find a tombstalker or some mishras for the win.

Interesting:confused:

Perhaps this would allow a "chuck" card before playing pox/smallpox, in addition to helping an early tomby

Might be hard to burn four, as I would hope every card in the deck was worth playing

mujadaddy

05-19-2009, 02:38 PM

If I were to say...drop my Urborgs and factories and just run swamps and wastes, would that be counter productive as I run three Crucibles? :confused: If you drop Urborg and Factories, then I'd think 3 Crucibles would be at least 1 too many.

just a brainstorming but... has anyone tried golgari thug in a list with tombstalker and crucible??? If we discard the thug in the early game with a pox effect later on we can dredge him when it is necessary to find a tombstalker or some mishras for the win.Golgari Thug:
+Helps Tombstalkers lategame
+No-worry pitch card
+Can put lands into GY, helping Crucible on more turns
+Cheap to cast if you need a 1/1, and can recur a creature, even itself -- helps Nether Spirit (?)
-Usually not worth casting as a 1/1 until you've got something impressive in the GY. In other words, only helpful with Tombstalkers.
-Dumps 4 cards, blindly, into the GY. All the spells are supposed to be strong, useable spells in Pox. This is only helpful with Crucibles in play/Tombstalkers in hand.
-Not as strong as most of the spells in the deck.

I think the verdict is that Golgari Thug can help you run 4 Tombstalkers. Whether running 4 Tombstalkers, and taking up 2+ more slots to help run them, is something worth doing is debateable, though.

coraz86

05-19-2009, 03:31 PM

I'm not sure Thug is better than Volrath's Stronghold in that case. I've found one Stronghold to be a good number; you find it when you want it, but you don't draw multiples and go 'oops, legend rule.' If it had a two- or three-power body, then maybe, but I can't think of anything like that. Thug, for me, falls back into that 'good enough' category, and 'good enough' is untenable at Legacy's power level.

That also raises the question of how many threats to run and which. I don't know that this deck can sustain too low a number, given that it doesn't have countermagic or anything to protect them (as with Thresh or Team America or StifleNought). A minimum of three Tombstalkers seems good to me, but I don't know what else to use. I'm not opposed to Phyrexian Totem, although I think we can do better. I'm not sure how I feel about Factories outside of the Landstill matchup....sometimes they're just a liability in a deck that otherwise doesn't have many issues with Wasteland. I like Shriekmaw, even if only two or three. I can't remember if this has been discussed, but this looks like a great place for Nyxathid. I'm not even opposed to Juzams, although I don't have a grand laying around to go pick up a set. :rolleyes: (Plague Sliver gets awkward in multiples or I'd just try that.)

I do think it's beyond question that we need dudes who hit hard. This is one of my problems with Factory (although Factory's opportunism is a definite plus). I know there's a lot of cheap fat in black, so I'm sure I'm forgetting something. When you Pox or you roll up enough removal to get your opponent on their heels, you have to get a couple good solid blows in, preferably enough to win the game.

I think I would start with
4 Tombstalker
4 Nyxathid
3 Shriekmaw

and go from there. (I also run one Stronghold by reflex, because I frankly love it.) I'm also not sure about the fourth Tombstalker, especially with Crucible in the deck and with no fetchlands. (I agree that fetchlands are probably a bad idea if you're running only one color in a slow control deck.)

coraz86

05-19-2009, 03:32 PM

Come to that, why has nobody tried using snow lands and two (or maybe three) Scrying Sheets? Scrying Sheets is stupid good, especially in a deck like this that runs a million basics.

Raindown

05-19-2009, 03:39 PM

I think I would start with
4 Tombstalker
4 Nyxathid
3 Shriekmaw

Are you just running the Shriekmaw for the evoke? I love the fear aspect but isn't :4: :b: a lot of mana?

mujadaddy

05-19-2009, 04:06 PM

Are you just running the Shriekmaw for the evoke? I love the fear aspect but isn't :4: :b: a lot of mana?Yes, it is a lot of mana. However, it is a very useful 5 mana. Or 2 mana if you're in a pickle. I run 2, because it costs 5 for full benefit and 3 is too many.

I dislike Nyaxthid because it has zero evasion and the opponent can kill it without doing anything, especially once you're waiting to topdeck something else.

I just started running a single Phyrexian Totem again. I had, long time gone, run 3, but multiples of him SUCK because you have so little mana in general with Pox. I'm not done testing yet. He's good against decks with little to no creatures, but turns into :b: when you can't blast past the crowd, except in emergencies. Not that there's anything wrong with :b: ...

Factory is ... really good, even with Wastelands across the table. I often activate them just to save a Tombstalker from Smallpox. A 3/3 blocker doesn't hurt either. Plus they make Standstill sad :laugh:

Scrying Sheets? Why? 2 mana maybe to draw a land? SDT seems strictly better.

Lord Darkview

05-19-2009, 04:26 PM

I like L_D's Contamination-lock idea, and I can get behind a discussion of that, but this isn't Sealed Deck; you can't just play to not lose. That's why you run things like Tombstalker (which is big enough to block and kill a lot of things)

...

@L_D; I had never thought of Epochrasite, for some reason. I like that. How is that working? It still strikes me as being a little slow because of the suspend time, but it does hit for a bunch and it's irritating to get rid of.

On Contamination:
The lock is ridiculous. Almost no one sees it coming, and the only way to really prevent it is to have either an instant response and untapped mana or a set-and-forget mechanism like Aura of Silence or Pernicious Deed. The interesting thing here is you can use Duress and such to clear your opening. If this hits, and your opponent hasn't already established a winning position that's immune to Pox, you win the game.

The problem is that it doesn't stop what I've found to be Pox's biggest worry after burn: horde decks. Sometimes WW, Elves, Goblins, and others just spill onto the table so quick that even after Contamination, you just can't beat them. Contamination also has the problem that while you can run it with either a Nether Spirit, a Crucible-Factory, or other mechanisms, its a combo which sometimes doesn't win the game, and sometimes doesn't show up. Epochrasite lets you play with it a bit, and make it a 2-turn lockdown. The final problem is that Pox already has a fairly strong match against a lot of control and combo. You're packing a ton of mana-denial and hand-denial, which just bury that stuff. It can be a win-more.

Contamination belongs in the sideboard in most cases, in my opinion.

On Epochrasite:
I can't say enough good things about this card. Since the most prevalent aggro-control and control decks play few creatures, this guy is big enough to chump early, and later on he's a nasty fight for a Treetop Village, Mongoose, or a lot of stuff. He can end the game quickly, overloading the four StP that is the standard. It can buy you time. Most importantly, it also has synergies with, well everything. A lot of people hesitate on a sac-effect with Tombstalker in play, and some run Nether Spirit to compensate. This gives you an additional buffer, and one that does great with Cabal Therapy. A final benefit is that, depending on your build, turn 2 may be a weak area. Hymns are universal, but Sinkhole is not, and you really don't want to cast Smallpox on turn 2.

On Lands:
I personally still run 4 Pox, even though this is not universal anymore. Doing this means I really want to have :b::b::b: on turn three. Just about every variant wants :b::b: on turn two. If you don't run the full Pox playset, then you can quite easily get away with 18 black mana sources. I play 21, and have eschewed Wasteland in favor of more threats and disruption (its not as good without Sinkhole, and those two make you very anti-control). However, if you are going to play the colorless sources (and open yourself to non-basic hate), go all in. Run 14 Swamp, 4 Urborg, and some additional Wastelands and Mishra's Factory, and perhaps back it up with Crucible of Worlds if you like. It makes the deck slower and more controllish, but also more powerful.

The key thing is, whatever you do, you need the black mana. If you're running that many colorless sources, you run four Urborg. There's a good chance someone will want to hit it with Wasteland (you already accepted this, might as well be prepared), and even if they don't, its not as if Smallpox and Pox don't reduce the penalty for dead cards anyway.

Lord Darkview

05-19-2009, 04:31 PM

Come to that, why has nobody tried using snow lands and two (or maybe three) Scrying Sheets? Scrying Sheets is stupid good, especially in a deck like this that runs a million basics.

Because the deck already generates a ton of virtual card advantage. Casting Pox and Smallpox tends to lower the available mana, which would mean Sheets or cast. Moreover, colorless sources hurt if you're not biting the bullet and running Urborg, and to really take advantage you need SDT.

One thing forgotten about the Scrying Sheets engine is while it's good in just about anything running basics, its also a bunch of extra card slots, especially in a deck with heavy color requirements.

Mystical_Jackass

05-19-2009, 04:41 PM

Ritual can really eases the mana color dependency too.. in combination with other spells in the deck. Same goes for totem, if you run 6+ colorless like I.

scrying sheets just seems sorta slow and unpredictable. Why not just run infernal contract and/or pains reward, the card adv is ridiculous.

Barsoom

05-19-2009, 05:11 PM

This thread seems coming back to life another time, so i'll share the list i'm running at the moment; after an year or Pox i think i come up with a decklist i like and that's performing well.
First a clarification, i don't own Sinkhole (budget problems), so the actual decklist and the decklists i played in the past were all about trying solutions for a nice and powerful Pox deck without Sinkhole.

// Main Deck //
13 Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland

3 Tombstalker
2 Nether Spirit

4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Pox
4 Innocent Blood
4 Thoughtseize/Funeral Charm
2 Raven's Crime
3 Crucible of Worlds
2 The Rack

// Sideboard //
4 Engineered Plague
3-4 Diabolic Edict
2-3 Nyxathid
3 Infest/Powder Keg
2 The Rack

The decklist that literally opened my eyes was this one (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23889) that performed 6° on 44 at Dual for Duals this year.
One of the really few decklists on deckcheck that doesn't run Sinkhole, replacing it with more discard (Thoughtseize, Funeral Charms in the list are the budget replacement cause i don't own Tseizes; i think the charms are the best replacement here, suggestions on that thing?) and The Rack as another win condition.
With Nyxathid on Sideboard if you really want to go all in with the discard strategy.
The rest of the deck is an usual Pox, quite the same as the one i was running.
The Sideboard is ofc always a work in progress, but the cards i love for it are in, maybe i would add some graveyard hate if it's prevalent on your meta (like Leyline of the Void or Tormod's Crypt).

Thoughts?

Raindown

05-19-2009, 05:31 PM

Thoughts?

I read your earlier list. Did you not like the powder kegs over the racks? was it a matter of too little threats?

matamagos

05-19-2009, 05:33 PM

I think the verdict is that Golgari Thug can help you run 4 Tombstalkers. Whether running 4 Tombstalkers, and taking up 2+ more slots to help run them, is something worth doing is debateable, though.

Finding space in the list to check him is very easy, he is just incompatible with nether spirit. In addition both cards fit a similar role in the list: being the perfect target to discard with pox/small pox.

A few pages ago nether spirit has been discussed to be too slow (always the same subject!). Thug can help you to play a tomb in the third turn.

If you manage to have a turn 2 smallpox, you discard the thug and dredge in the third turn you will have 6 cards in the graveyard to play a tombstalker (smallpox, land and the 4 dredged).

I know this example sound like "the perfect hand" but in any situation thug will help you to find/play the tombstalkers, who are the true finishers of this deck.

And now is time to destroy my own arguments: all I have said is pure theory cause I haven't tested him. So it's 90% probable everything I said is wrong and thug is only playable in the world of teletubbies.

mujadaddy

05-19-2009, 05:38 PM

thug will help you to find/play the tombstalkersUm. It doesn't help you FIND them at all.

@Samsunait's list: VERY interesting that a Pox deck top8'ed.

I'd like to hear your own thoughts on your list, though, after you play it a while.

Barsoom

05-19-2009, 06:11 PM

I read your earlier list. Did you not like the powder kegs over the racks? was it a matter of too little threats?

Powder Keg was good (well, it's still the only good card that black got to answer artifacts), but in a dedicated Discard Pox, you need at least 12 discard effects outside Poxes; our goal is to answer problematic cards discarding them.
This can be risky sure, but as you can see at deckcheck's decklists, Powder Keg is quite used but usually on Sideboard, and i play it too there.
Wasn't a matter of threats, the 3 Tombstalker+3 Spirit+4 Factories were usually enought to kill opponent; with The Rack you get differentiated win conditions, creatures, artifacts and lands (plus, with the small testing i did with this new list, with 14 discard + 8 poxes, sometimes it kills really fast, expecially after a Pox); it's a faster win condition than Nether Spirit; i mainly use it like an utility card and not for winning.

@Samsunait's list: VERY interesting that a Pox deck top8'ed.

I'd like to hear your own thoughts on your list, though, after you play it a while.
Actually Pox decks top8'ed sometimes and they are still doing it, it's a matter of believing in the deck, being a good and experienced pilot with it (it's not an easy deck to play) and go; the deck itself is at least tier 2 imho.
You can see latest Pox decks that top8'ed here (http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?type=Pox&format=Legacy); the last list of May 9 is intriguing me; maindeck Extirpate? seems at least interesting.

Raindown

05-19-2009, 07:13 PM

// Main Deck //
13 Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland

Thoughts?

How do you like this mana base? I run the same but with more one waste. Ever get choked for :b: mana?

I was reluctantly considering trying, just wastelands with the rest swamps.

Barsoom

05-20-2009, 05:50 AM

How do you like this mana base? I run the same but with more one waste. Ever get choked for :b: mana?

I was reluctantly considering trying, just wastelands with the rest swamps.

I tryed for some games a manabase of 12 swamps 4 urborg 4 waste 4 mishra, and like others here and expecially seeing deckcheck's decklist, i felt that 17 black mana sources is the minimum for this deck.
I'm not focusing on LD so i cut a waste and added a swamp, for 13swamps+4 urborg=17 black sources.
If i would run sinkhole (like you?) i think i'll add too another wasteland, for 25 lands total.
The fact where i'm totally sure is that with this kind of manabase 4 urborgs are needed.

coraz86

05-20-2009, 12:38 PM

In a control deck like this that plays the long game and runs Crucible, what do people think of Dust Bowl? I've never been able to find a home for it in Legacy, but it used to be a house in Extended.

matamagos

05-20-2009, 12:45 PM

With a crucible in play dust bowl does the same effect as wasteland with more mana invested, so it's inferior.

Without the crucible wasteland is faster. However, dust bowl enables you to destroy more lands than a single waste if you have enough swamps, so maybe we can discuss his inclusion in the list.

Lord Darkview

05-20-2009, 09:39 PM

Dustbowl can be nasty if you have 4+ lands. If you're playing without Crucible of Worlds and have four lands, you're doing it wrong. Otherwise, if you're playing with Crucible, Wasteland is plain superior.

So either you run Crucible and Wasteland, or just plain Wasteland, or no Wasteland or Dustbowl. Dustbowl is just too intensive on your own mana to be effective. If it ever is, its probably really a win more.

Mystical_Jackass

05-20-2009, 11:57 PM

Well, just went 3-1 last tourney.

Here was my decklist if you're interested;

Lands (24)
16 swamp
4 factory
2 Urborg
2 waste

Disruption (24)
4 dark rit
4 pox
4 smallpox
4 duress
4 hymn to tourach
2 innocent blood
2 extirpate

Engine (12)
2 crucible
3 syphon life
2 nether spirit
2 pain's reward
3 phyrexian totem

Sideboard: 4 crypt, 4 infest, 4 highway robbers, 2 soulfeast.... lol, literally had no time to get sideboard, just threw in in case burn or something
=================

1st Match vs. Elves:
Rofl. I try to forget this match.. what can I say, its almost like the kid was so bad, he was good kinda things lol. game 1 started off with a bang, I managed to disrupt him a lot off the bat. The kids deck was so basic but it actually was horrible for a deck like mine, every card he played was just putting elf tokens into play and unfortately like 12 draws into the game I drew 0 Pox, but like 3 smallpox. I must've syphon lifed him about 4-5 times to keep the match close around 8 life but he was able to finish me by then. Game 2, I sideboard in 4 Infest. I choose to go first, but unfortunately have to mulligan to a great hand, prob was it had waste & fact as only 2 lands lol. I manage to disrupt him a little bit, then FInally get down to 2 drop a Pox discarding Nether spirit... were both down to like 12-13 life, leaving me witha swamp & factory. I was like sweet.. just gotta draw an Infest and I'm set. wrong! I literally chumped forever, Nothing lol! Must've gone about 10 turns playing minor disruptio, kept dropping more and more tokens, finally boosted them up and finished me. I couln't believe I lost to a deck of 1/1, 2/2 creatures. Ah well, shi* happens moving on :)

Match 2 vs. wtflolzzzzcontrolIdunno-something?
So basically, here's this kids deck in a nutshell. Uses the one card.. skips his upkeep. Uses That stupid white WWX card that puts counters, can't lose game until counters are gone.. u get the point, he then runs 2 of each of the Kaldra equipment right, basically just stupidly simple but hey to each his own. Game 1, start out with a bang discarding him, dropping a few factories & totem, started swining in. Get him down to about 8 life, he gets his little 2 item immortality going... great -.- So basically I had the pleasure of waiting about 30 draws later till he finally gets his Kaldra piece complete, swinging with a 9/9 tramper.. able to stop him for a few turns, finally just conceded (by then I had syphoned up to almost 30 life just for the heck of it lol.) Game 2 I knew what to do, I continued to disrupt his hand with duress, pox, hymn.. I then kept an extirpate handy so when he'd try to play his "skip upkeep" card, removed them from the game. Tried to get his armor out and I extirpate that too. Kept swining for win. Game 3, time literally just ran out after he hits me for 1 damage after a turn or two. He was such a chump, he literally gets up and goes "ok, my life is higher, I win." I'm like nononawnaw, 5 turns bro. So pretty much I follow it up with Pox immediately after, both at 13 life discarding spirit. He drops 0/1 moth that if blocks he gains 4 life. I play factory and say screw it, swing into him he gains 4 life, I play syphon life were both 15. Next turns I swing at him and take win.

Match 3 vs. Soldiers:
Game 1, duress remove his O ring, noticed he didn't have any creatures till 3-4 mana, excellent :) I get a totem and factory out, I then conventiently manage to pox him after every creature drop and innocent blood, I finally get the clear and activate totem & factory to finish him off. Game 2, I get to go second but I get dark ritual, duress, hymn on him. I then get the friggin perfect land combo, 2 swamp 2 factory. I'd manage to draw just the right disruption to keep the board clreared till I got him down to about 9. I then drop a Pox putting me down to 13, him down to 7 or so. just as my luck started to wear out since he started getting a couple 2/2 first strike and fliers, I draw Pains reward and take a 5 life hit, the 5 cards next turn give me what I needed to clear the bard and syphon life him for the win.

Match 4 vs. Landstill:
Game1, I win and choose to go first. Horrible hand, have to mulligan. Duress, see his hand.. couple factories, mutavaults, brainstorm, sensei's.. yoink sensei's. Next few turns I'm stuck with a totem on board, a wasteland I used to waste hiis factory but didn't draw any crucibles, and innocent blood. The few smallpox I drew wasn't enough for me to survive. Game 2, side in 3 highway robber & a soulfeast, side out innocent blood & 2 duress I believe, basically taking out the late game garbage for more immediate mid-late game finishers and threats that'll also keep me alive longer. I started out kinda slow, he got the jump on me once again with vaults and factories, I managed to get 2 totems out and a few small disruptions like hymn and a few Pox'z.. it sucked, he just kept coming he had 2 dual lands, a vault, and factory, finally a miracle happened when he got me down to 4 life, he was at like 12, I thought I was almost done for, but I draw a Pox bringing me down to 2 life he ends up having to sac his muta and dual land going down to 7-8 life. Finally a beacon of hope, I draw a crucible.. play it, returning one of my factories from before to play. Back in business :) Its sorta a stalemate for a min.. I use a few land draws to punish him with syphon life putting me over him in life and him now down to 4. Bingo, draw a pain's reward and manage to play it, start the bid at 1 life.. he literally doesn't even try lol 'cause he can't afford to die to syphon.. draw 4 cards, end up having 2 lands, dark rit and some other card, use dark rit and retrace to hit him for 2, next turn discard land and hit him ftw. 3rd game, I get great start with dark rit + totem off bat. He obviously wasn't counting on this, but he drops standstill which ended up costing him dearly, I end up playing my lands and waste his factory, he doesn't recover quick enough and I activate totem swing for 5 damage. Another draw, didn't have a response, next turn I activate and swing he's forced to break standstill, I go up to 25 and draw 3. Huge, from there we both end up in a stalemate, both get crucibles out with few factories, I have nether spirit. I pox so it was 9-16. I was in topdeck mode by then, he had quite a few counterspells to hold off my retrace for a while I even thought I had it with soulfeast but he got a brainstorm + cs and couldn't finish with highway robbers 'cause he got humility out in play, finally got him down to 4 life, draw pains reward, he gives it to me for 1 life. draw 4 cards; He had Elspeth in play putting soldiers into play, managed to make them all indestructible and managed to send 2 in with flying over the top but it was just too late.

matamagos

05-21-2009, 05:15 AM

Reading your report I have had the impression that you used syphon life very often. Isn't it too slow??? Would not be better just 2 more innocent blood since the only cretures you play are the nether spirits?

Korsakow

05-21-2009, 06:42 AM

Were the 4 Dark Rituals worth it?
I mean Pox is control and the cd realy seems to be bad.
The explosive start like Rit/Duress/Hymn is nice, but you have no creatures to keep the pressure on.
With 24 lands isn't Mox Diamond instead of Ritual better?

mujadaddy

05-21-2009, 09:44 AM

Love the report -- good work, Pox! Oh, you too M_J :wink:

I knew that decks that run a million weenies were problematic (that's why I use teh seekrit tek :tongue: ). Great job vs. Landstill.

My questions would be, did you find Nether Spirit to be worthwhile? Did you ever have too many Poxes, or were they always relevant?

Mystical_Jackass

05-21-2009, 10:32 AM

Hey thanks! That first loss was painful haha. THe "so bad he was good" reference was totally true though, the kid actually main phase casts guilt leaf ambush... wins the clash, then goes "ok, they now have deathtouch!"
-.-
... just to be sure, I just sorta scrutinize the card real quick..( "...deathtouch till end of turn.") REiiiiiiiiiiiight >.> and I'm losing to this kid lol, its all g.

Reading your report I have had the impression that you used syphon life very often. Isn't it too slow??? Would not be better just 2 more innocent blood since the only cretures you play are the nether spirits?

So basically an ideal situation I'd get a crucible, totem, 2 swamps, and a factory out.. something like that after were all disrupted out ;P

Whats great is late game it gives me an awesome "Engine":
ie. I draw a Wasteland late game, discard wasteland to retrace syphon life giving 4 life margin on them, recur wasteland with crucible, blow their dualand/factory. This deck runs on a fairly low mana curve and high land count, I can abuse my otherwise bad land drops infinitely while still being able to activate factories, etc.

Its a good question, it does seem like it'd be slow.. but Pox can't be suicide, it just can't.. if it loses the rush it must fall back into control. You saw there were actually a couple games.. a couple where I got my factories/totems out and managed to clear the board perfectly to finish them, but it doesn't usually happen. THe games like one against the SOldier deck where he goes his first strikers out and Lanstill where he got his mutavaults/factories/soldier tokens going.. I had nether spirit, totem, 2 factories it literally is like a " stand still" lol. After dropping a few Pox and getting them below 8 life, the syphon life +draw engine giving me a 4 life threshold every hit just eats them away, allowing me to eventually abuse pains reward almost for free tipping the game in my factor. Still looking for a way to break this deck, and it still has a lot of testing so I"m open to anything :)

Were the 4 Dark Rituals worth it?
Yeah. I'd say so, not so much for just dark + hymn + duress "suckkkaaa!!" moves.. but the ability to micro manage first few turns like dropping a totem/crucible while still being able to block with factory, blood, w/e

My questions would be, did you find Nether Spirit to be worthwhile? Did you ever have too many Poxes, or were they always relevant?

Heya, yeah I'm not saying this 'cause I have some.. foil version of Nether spirit that's shiny and I dont want to take him out lol (I dont :[) but he really makes such a difference. Having a hand with a Pox and spirit to discard was like a breath of fresh air, this sounds really dorky but it gives you kinda a confidence boost in some matches 'cause you can't get rushed by factories and crappy weenies.. Like I didn't get spirit out first game against elves or I prolly coulda held off forevas

Pox was MvP (as it should be lol, the decks named after it!) I literally wanted it more than smallpox several times..
- it abuses their land better if you work it right.. with 1-2 totem out, stay at 3 lands or less, Pox them every time they go 4+ to make them take a hit for 2 while you lose 1.
- Brings their life down quicker, this deck needs that speed.. otherwise I prolly coulda beat elves that first game.
- works in losing situations too due to its diminishing returns. If you're at 3 life and they're at 20. Drop 2 Pox you're at 1 life they're at 8, if you can hold board off with spirit. a couple syphon lifes and you can turn the game around