[Deck] UWb Fish

[Hanni]

After the banning of Flash, I wasn't sure if I wanted to revert back to the 4 Mom 3 Avenger 3 Jitte list. I really enjoyed Shadowmage Infiltrator throughout my playtesting with it. I realize that the extra Mom + Avenger list is better against aggro... but Shadowmage Infiltrator is also good against nearly everything. It diversifies the cc's of my creature base a little, which helps against things like Chalice, Counterbalance, and Pernicious Deed. It's blue so it's still pitchable to FoW. It gives me additional evasion, so that the deck now has Flying, Fear, and Pro Color via Mother of Runes. A 1/3 body isn't bad. It makes me a little vulnerable to E Plague set to Wizards, but whatever. It draws me a frickin card every turn. It's like additional Dark Confidant's. Dark Confidant wins games. So does Shadowmage. Shadowmage costs 1 more, but is far less vulnerable than Confidant. And he can actually swing almost always. The additional card drawing makes the deck so much stronger from my testing with it. It improves nearly every matchup, from Goblins to Threshold to 4c Landstill. I really like it alot.

With the extra evasion now, I decided to go with a 2/1 split on equipment... 2 Jitte and 1 Sword of Fire and Ice. SoFI is even more additional card drawing, it gives me 3 equipment pieces without running 3 Legendary Jittes (which tend to be dead in multiples), it gives me diversity from Needle targets that Threshold likes to utilize. 3cc may be difficult to cast at times against Goblins, but it's still a very strong equipment piece vs them. It's just a great piece of equipment overall and further diversify's my cc's a little. Forcing 4c Landstill to Deed away their Crucible in order to answer SoFI and Shadowmage is pretty good.

I decided that Engineered Explosives was awful. It answers Chalice, but so does Vindicate, and Vindicate is just a much better SB spell overall. EE answers EtW tokens, but so does E Plague. The problem I have with it is that it wipes my own board in most of the matchups where I'd want to use it. It's been problematic for me to cast for said reason. I decided to drop them for 2 more Vindicates. Vindicate is awesome vs Threshold, where I drop my StP's for them so I can name StP with Mage and it blows up their Needle's and even Counterbalances if they run them. If Slivers becomes really really popular sometime soon, I'll go back to the 2/2 split of EE and Vindicate. For now, I love the 4 Vindicates.

Considering that my deck now has 6 MD black spells, all of them being creatures, and an assload of sideboard cards that are black, I feel that the basic Swamp is a pretty good idea. It gives further stability against Wasteland locks, it helps the manabase a bit against Goblins postboard (when I really wanna cast that Plague), so on and so forth.

The new revised list, which I will update the opening post to:

UWb Fish

Lands (17)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Creatures (18)
3 Mother of Runes
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Serra Avenger
4 Meddling Mage
4 Dark Confidant
2 Shadowmage Infiltrator

Spells (25)
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Sideboard (15)
3 Duress
4 Engineered Plague
4 Vindicate
2 Pithing Needle
2 Winter Orb

That's what I'm using now and the deck has been running beautifully. I really like MD Duress, but they are just dead against Goblins. While this list isn't as good against Goblins as the list with 4 Mom and 3 Avenger, I feel that this list is so much stronger overall.

The SB plan vs Goblins is:

-1 Jotun Grunt
-2 Dark Confidant
-3 Daze
+4 Engineered Plague
+2 Pithing Needle

Daze is pretty bad vs Goblins to begin with and Dark Confidant has problems surviving against Fanatic. With Plague coming in, I wanted to decrease my dependance on black a little too. Since I have Shadowmages, it's still like running 4 Confidant. I lose less life now. The Grunt is decent vs Goblins but it has the problem of being forced to be the beatdown since it can't just sit back and block for very long. It's good at getting counters established on Jitte though and it's still a solid clock, which is why I only drop 1.

SB plan vs Threshold is:

-3 Stifle
-4 Swords to Plowshares
+3 Duress
+4 Vindicate

Stifle is useless vs them and Duress is amazing. Vindicate allows me to name StP with Meddling Mage and it also blows up Needle's (and potentially Counterbalances). The extra cc isn't really a problem since the games go long anyway. Vindicate is pretty savage vs Threshold. The additional Shadowmages make this matchup even better, which the deck needed due to the new powerhouse that is Tarmogoyf.

Enjoy.

[C-Aleric]

I like the idea of Infiltrator. I put him in my list a few days ago as well, and he's been turning out to be pretty incredible. I also agree that 2 is the right number. It strictly replaces Ninja's in my list.

I still however, don't think that losing the potential Duress -> Meddling Mage in game 1 is good. That just wins a lot of games. Gives you a chance to see your opponents hand. Which again almost seems unfair when you're playing blue spells.

But, if you think 4 Serum Visions is worth it, then go for it. I know that losing life to confidant is bad. However, proactive disruption in Fish is what gives it game one advantage a lot of the time.

[Hanni]

As much as I love Duress, it's just simply dead against Goblins. Flash is banned, and I see absolutely no reason why Goblins won't become the #1 deck again. For that reason, Duress is in my sideboard. It's not really necessary for beating combo, although it's always helpful, but I've been fine with it in the sideboard ever since I put them there way back when. I love the turn 1 Duress turn 2 Meddling Mage play as much as anybody and I have always been a huge advocate of it MD. However, until Goblins goes on the decline, I want to try and keep my Goblins matchup strong. That means keeping the 8 cantrips to make sure my manabase stays stable, that means running at least 3 equipment pieces, and that means keeping my threat count high enough to use those equipment pieces.

Duress is also one of those cards that, against many decks, is good early and bad later on. This isn't the case against decks like Threshold and Landstill, but it is the case against decks like B/w Deadguy and Affinity.

The changes were basically:

-3 Duress
+2 Shadowmage
+1 SoFI

Which gives me a higher threat count, another equipment piece, and additional draw power. The only possible cut I see for Duress is Jotun Grunt or Shadowmages, and I really can't see myself cutting either. Serum Visions is just too essential to the consistency of the deck, for both mana stabilization early on and relevant draws later on. So it goes, I guess. I bring the Duress in vs control, aggro/control, combo, burn, and other random decks like Zoo that run alot of removal (usually in place of the Stifles).

Also, I'm pretty saddened about the responses the Adepts gave about Fish in the Q&A thread. I was gonna post my own response and counter response on this thread about it, but I'll do it another time.

[Hanni]

Prologue

I've always tried to build Fish to be extremely versatile and well rounded in order to handle the entire erray of the metagame with generalized answers. It's obviously a control deck, and it can be metagamed accordingly. Metagaming with Fish is extremely versatile, as it can be tuned around very easily. It angers me a little when people call it a metagame deck because I really don't see how it's any less of a metagame deck that Threshold. It's still blue/based aggro/control, it just utilizes different gameplans.

The deck can have a solid build that will answer randomness... most matchups then become 50/50, or greater all depending on the pilot of the deck. The deck easily finds answers with draw/quality but it requires tons of decisions to be played. The deck requires you to outplay your opponent's. The deck still retains a few very favorable matchups too. However, the deck can be tuned to lesser certain matchups and increase others.

The flavors of UWb Fish:

UWb Fish
Frame

Lands (16)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Plains

Creatures (15)
3 Mother of Runes
2 Jotun Grunt
2 Serra Avenger
4 Meddling Mage
4 Dark Confidant

Spells (22)
4 Brainstorm
3 Serum Visions
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard (12)
4 Engineered Plague
4 Vindicate
2 Pithing Needle
2 Winter Orb

UWb Fish
Goblins, Other Aggro Metagame

MD
+1 Tundra
+1 Mother of Runes
+1 Jotun Grunt
+1 Serra Avenger
+1 Serum Visions
+1 Stifle
+1 Umezawa's Jitte

SB
+3 Duress

With these changes, the deck adds additional combat strength with Mother of Runes, Serra Avenger, and Umezawa's Jitte. These are great tools vs Goblins, as well as all aggro in general. The additional Jotun Grunt gives the deck an additional creature, which happens to be pretty fat. The extra white source is there to support the extra Avenger and white spells, the Stifle is their because of it's strength vs Goblins, and Serum Visions comes in for additional manabase stabilization early on and relevant topdecks later on.

UWb Fish
Combo, Control, Aggro/Control Metagame

MD
+1 Swamp
+1 Jotun Grunt
+1 Serum Visions
+1 Stifle
+3 Duress

SB
+1 Mother of Runes
+1 Serra Avenger
+1 Umezawa's Jitte

You don't need the thicker amount of aggro elements here. The lone Swamp comes in to help stabilize the manabase due to the extra MD black sources. The extra Grunt comes in for it's disruptiveness against certain combo while increasing the clock. The Serum Visions come in to keep the deck stocked with good cards. Stifle is amazing vs combo and alot of control decks, Duress is amazing against basically everything.

UWb Fish
2k7 v.1

MD
+1 Swamp
+1 Jotun Grunt
+1 Serum Visions
+2 Shadowmage Infiltrator
+1 Stifle
+1 Sword of Fire and Ice

SB
+3 Duress

This is my new version intended for Goblins and other aggro matchups. It loses a Mother and Avenger but gains Shadowmage Infiltrator and drops a Jitte for a SoFI. The Shadowmage helps improve all matchups, including Goblins and other aggro, but is less good against aggro specifically.

UWb Fish
2k7 v.2

MD
+1 Swamp
+2 Shadowmage Infiltrator
+3 Duress
+1 Sword of Fire and Ice

SB
(Control, Combo, Aggro/Control metagame)
+1 Stifle
+2 Jotun Grunt
//
(Goblins, Other Aggro metagame)
+1 Mother of Runes
+1 Jotun Grunt
+1 Serra Avenger

This list cuts Jotun Grunt, Stifle, and Serum Visions for 3 Duress. Duress is good vs all matchups besides Goblins, Stifle less effective against all matchups, and the deck has additional draw now with Shadowmages to replace a Visions. I like this decklist because, although the Goblins matchup game 1 worsens, games 2 and 3 are still extremely strong like they've always been while all of my matchups increase in strength with the current MD. The sideboard gives me 2 configurations of 3 metagame-able spots.

Currently, I'm using the second configuration of the sideboard. That decklist looks like this:

UWb Fish
Current Edition

Lands (17)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Creatures (17)
3 Mother of Runes
2 Jotun Grunt
2 Serra Avenger
4 Meddling Mage
4 Dark Confidant
2 Shadowmage Infiltrator

Spells (26)
4 Brainstorm
3 Serum Visions
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Duress
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Sideboard (12)
1 Mother of Runes
1 Jotun Grunt
1 Serra Avenger
4 Engineered Plague
4 Vindicate
2 Pithing Needle
2 Winter Orb

This list has been doing very well for me in testing. My maindeck Goblins matchup worsens a little compared to the 4/3/3 Mother/Avenger/Jitte MD version a bit, but the rest of my matchups strengthen considerably and I sideboard into the 4/3/3 Mother/Avenger/equipment plan anyway.

Epilogue

I don't understand why people constantly say Thresh is strictly a better deck. The gameplans of both decks are very different. Thresh splashes green for bigger men and runs a higher cantrip count with a lower threat density. Threshold creatures do absolutely nothing but beat, as they have no additional utility purposes. Fish makes up for the lack of size that Threshold's creatures have by supporting them with Mother of Runes and equipment. Fish replaces the lost cantrip spots with actual forms of draw built, which happen to be built into the creature base. Fish plays a much more disrupting game. While Thresh is obviously a better beatdown deck, Fish is a control deck. I don't see how this makes Threshold strictly a better deck. I don't see why UWb Fish would have that drastically worse of an aggro matchup than UGw Threshold... maybe a little worse due to not being able to drop a 4/5 as fast as Threshold, but Fish wants to control the game early. And I garuntee Fish has a much stronger control matchup than Thresh. Not only that, Fish beats Thresh. This is an age old topic that some people believe while others don't but... Fish has a much, much stronger late game than Thresh. Fish plays the control role much better, while utilizing tools to prevent Threshold from efficiently being the beatdown early.

Fish's creatures are smaller than Thresh's, not worse, during the early portion of the game. Later on, support pieces via Mother of Runes and equipment match them in power. Additionally, Serra Avenger is the same size as Mongoose while Jotun Grunt is relatively the same size as Tarmogoyf, so in the list with 3 Avenger 3 Grunt, the fat package is really not too much worse in Fish... Avenger and Grunt are restrictive to play, but so are Threshold's guys.

I'm also confused as to how Threshold has a better Goblins matchup. Game 1, Threshold might have a slightly better game because it plays the tempo role better, i.e it utilizes more cantrip to be able to have consistent tempo elements like FoW/Daze/StP, drop a guy or two, and beat Goblins before they establish. In contrast though, Fish has Mother of Runes to play defensively early, while still utilizing tempo elements like FoW/Daze/Stifle/StP to stall, with equipment pieces (and even evasion) to clean up regardless if they finally establish. Thresh needs to race, Fish needs to stabilize. They are different gameplans and I don't really find Threshold's gameplan to be any more effective. Postboard, the Goblins matchup for Fish is far more favorable for Threshold due to Engineered Plagues. The deck also gains Needles and Stifles, though Threshold can utilize those as well. The power of Engineered Plague, in combination with the equipment pieces, allows Fish to stabilize. Threshold is still forced to race Goblins, even with cards like Tivadar's Crusade. This means Thresholds win against Goblins is still dependant on the early game draw, where Fish can easily draw into a ton of situation fixing outs to stabilize.

I love Threshold. None of that was not meant to say Fish is better than Threshold. It was to say that Threshold and Fish are different decks that utilize different gameplans, and that Threshold is not strictly better than Fish, even in an aggro/metagame. This is basically a response to many of the Adept responses to the Question 3: Fish thread in the Adept Q&A forum.

Fish also has a very solid control matchup, despite popular belief. The control deck utilizes much stronger late game cards like Fact or Fiction and Pernicious Deed, but Fish still plays control well enough to fight over these cards. Fish doesn't need to over commit threats and has a relatively high threat density, too. One resolved Confidant or Shadowmage that survives for even a few turns gives Fish a huge edge, because it not only gains card advantage but it's also additional clock damage (and can swing equipment). Fish can lock the opponent out of removal options via Mother of Runes(s) + Meddling Mage(s), especially when backed with FoW, Duress, etc. Thresh utilizes a fast draw engine with cantrip to assemble early answers faster so that the card advantage and protection creatures resolve. The 4c Landstill matchup vs Fish is one of the most endurance based matchups I've ever played... almost all of my matchups against it have gone to time. I usually end up going 1-1 and drawing, although I have a few 2-1's against it in tournament play. The matchup is constantly back and forth, back and forth, and is extremely difficult for both players due to the large amount of decisions both players need to make. It's one of those matchups that will drain you if you play it multiple times at a tournament. If you've never played the 4c Landstill matchup with Fish, I'd suggest doing so. It's always a thrill, just be prepared to do alot of thinking.

People also seem to be forgetting Fish's strength vs combo. Isn't combo supposed to be on the rise, or something like that? With the new age power of Burning Wish and EtW and the speed of LED and other accelerants, is it a bad idea to play a deck with a favorable combo matchup? From personal experience with both decks, I find Fish to have a better combo matchup than Thresh, although both have a great combo matchup regardless.

I've also found the deck to do well vs decks like Stax, Enchantress, 43 Land, etc. The matchup against G/R/b Loam Control and a few other splashes of Loam Control to be extremely difficult matchups, but I still don't autolose to them and I have MD and SB tools to deal with them.

The sideboard is a really nice thing. It makes the Goblins matchup extremely strong postboard, control matchups extremely strong postboard, so on and so forth. This deck has some of the strongest sideboard options available due to the colors the deck is in... the deck has access to really good hate. Not only that, it also has the ability to draw into said hate consistently. [I'm not attempting to say Fish has access to the best sideboard hate, I'm merely saying it has strong sideboard hate options due to the colors available].

On an unrelated note, I still consider Threshold a variant of Fish. I tend to classify Fish as any type of blue based aggro/control, with Threshold splashing green instead of black to utilize bigger aggro and less disruption, transforming the role from less controlling to more beatdown.

Oh, and while I liked Godzilla's post on the Adept Fish thread, I just wanted to add:


It's interesting to note that in a metagame where there was a clear tier one deck (at GP Columbus), Fish failed to make any placings in the top 8, despite an overwhelming presence there.

Fish actually did Top 8 with Max Tietze playing an almost identical Fish list as the one I ran there. The number one reason Fish didn't do nearly as well was due to much lower % of the field actually playing Flash with a ton of random other decks still present. One main reason most of the Fish did poorly was because they metagamed for Flash and never played against Flash. If more players would have ran versatile lists like Max's (or even possibly tuned for a better mirror match), Fish would have put more in the Top 8. Another interesting thing to consider... how much of the Top 32 was Fish? Or Top 64? I don't think it was nearly as high as the amount of Fish that was there, but I'm sure there was still a ton of Fish in the mix within the Top 32 and Top 64. Too bad Wizards didn't at least make a metagame breakdown of archtypes for the Top 32 or 64.

And IBA...


Fish was a part of the metagame in the first place. It's in the category of tier three decks that people play despite the fact that they'll probably never win a major tournament.

That was low...

EDIT: The decklist I'm running now runs Duress SB. I'll udpate the original decklist in the opening post to reflect my current decklist.

[Filipinho]

After the Dreadnought update, I thought of Fish as the deck that could receive it. It already plays 4x Stifle MD, why not fit it here?


Non-Vial Big Fish

Lands (18)
1x Island
1x Plains
1x Swamp
1x Scrubland
3x Underground Sea
4x Tundra
3x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand

Creatures (17)
3x Phyrexian Dreadnought
3x Mother of Runes
3x Jotun Grunt
4x Meddling Mage
4x Dark Confidant

Other Spells (25)
2x Trickbind
4x Stifle
3x Daze
4x Force of Will
3x Swords to Plowshares
3x Serum Vision
4x Brainstorm
2x Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard:
1x Swords to Plowshares
1x Jotun Grunt
2x Serenity
2x Pithing Needle
2x Engineered Explosives
3x Duress
4x Engineered Plague


Vial Big Fish
Lands (17)
1x Swamp
1x Plains
3x Island
3x Underground Sea
3x Tundra
3x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand

Creatures (17)
2x Jotun Grunt
3x Mother of Runes
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
4x Meddling Mage
4x Dark Confidant

Other Spells (26)
1x Trickbind
4x Stifle
3x Daze
4x Force of Will
3x Swords to Plowshares
3x Serum Vision
4x Brainstorm
4x Aether Vial

[thefreakaccident]

so, recently my meta has been flooded with aggro-control decks of many various types and color variations (like several of all kinds with a little goblins and control mixed in, 1-2 combo decks per week usually solidarity).

I tried out this deck some time ago, just to find it wasn't that great of a meta game choice at the time... I also realize that counterbalance is quite devastating against aggro-control (1-2 cc spells, 1 sided challice for 0-2).

I was wondering if you guys could help me out with a list of counterbalance fish... here we go!

lands//17
4 flooded strand
3 polluted delta
4 tundra
3 underground sea
1 scrubland
1 plains
1 island

creatures//16
4 meddling mage
4 dark confidant
4 serra avenger
4 serindib efreet

spells//27
4 force of will
3 daze
4 counterbalance
4 brainstorm
3 serum visions
3 sensei's divining top
4 swords to plowshares
2 umezawa's jitte

sideboard//
4 engineered plague
3 pithing needle
4 duress
4 jotan grunt

[Illissius]

If you aren't using the Goyf, then I'd put some of the Grunts maindeck, because everyone else is.

[thefreakaccident]

what would you suggest for the grunt?

I would assume the efreet, but the efreet has evasion, is blue, and patches up the hole in the 3cc slot for the deck.

I could drop avenger, but I think avenger is actually better than grunt in most scenarios (doesn't die to itself, has evasion, and vigilance meaning double counters for jitte).

that's my position on the matter... I would hope grunt isn't all that bad for this deck.

[BoardinCharlie]

Hanni, this deck is huge now if you ask me. I run your latest build on here... I switched out the serum visions for portent, that card is really good I think the versatility is huge. Still going back and forth if I want the duress' main. If I push the duresses to the sideboard I want to include the 4th portent *serum vision* and possiblly include anothe removal spell that could slow down grow a little bit, maybe ghastly demise.

Have you updated this deck at all since the latest UG thresh winners build. I say keep working on this deck, it has all the tools plus more to beat the top tier decks!

[Lord_Dralnu]

I refuse to believe that this deck doesn't have what it takes to compete out there with the vast majority of ******** decks that are out there.

I've found the ******** matchup to be good actually, i can definitly win against white ********, red ******** just isn't played all that much but i think since it has more damage it'll be a tad harder to beat then white ********.

I'm a big fan of the Hannifish deck and i've been playing it in our last legacy tournament being in top 8 untill the very last game which i lost at time in 5th turn 2-1 against vial goblins with the guy being extremely lucky.

This deck still got what it takes and if i see that combo isn't played all that much anymore then maybe we could drop some of the elements that make the combo matchup so good and try and do something about the creature decks that are out there.

I see no reason possible why this deck couldn't undergo a slight transformation to a more aggro-ish deck with control elements.
I still believe this deck has a good creature deck match up(except for gobbo's then offcourse maindeck)

The metagame is evoling into ********, creature decks and combo decks?.
Obvious tech against creature decks and especially ********.
4x Spectral lynx it can block opposing goyfs and mongeese all day.
The inclusion of more creatures obviously makes the creature match ups good too.

I am not that great of a mastermind to do a total transformation of the deck but i'll let that up to you guys.

I suggested the transformation of this deck into a more metagame tuned creature deck that still has a good game against combo and other stuff.

I hereby call upon the legacy guru's to give this deck a new life cuz i hate to see the lack of fish.

Hanni we need you now man, your abscence will not do this deck any good pls come around and dicuss, all of you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I wanna see this thread alive and kicking again, any decent suggestions are welcome!!!!!

[cheddercaveman]

I'll weigh in a little on this deck from some observations I've made...

1) I've get to figure out how this deck isnt as good, if not better than threshold. Its not graveyard dependant, its creatures are just as good, if not better. There is an amazing draw engine. Meddling Mage, StP, Force, Daze, etc are all just as solid as before.

2)Standstill is not really that great for this deck because it wants to play out creatures that win rather than sitting back. Also, Bob largely fills this gap.

3)If your not playing standstill, there isnt really that big of a reason to play vial, your farther ahead with better cards in that slot with this deck

4)If your not playing the vial Serendib Efreet > Serra Avenger. 1 life is irrelevant, your putting 3 damage in there from the sky

5)Mother of Runes absolutely belongs in this deck if you like winning against anything. She taps and prevents lots of targetted removal, blocks tarmogoyf, helps get your guys in. She belongs in this deck.

6) 3 Jotun Grunt seems good for you, its potentially tech vs 'goyf and its a big cheap beater

7) I've seen some lists with Shadowmage Infiltrator. Yes he's got card draw and evasion. However, he's only swinging for 1 and you've got lots of other card draw, so I'm up in the air on this one myself. Most of the time this might be better off being duress.

8) Spell Snare is the "hot" counter right now for a reason. It only costs 1 and it counters lots of relevant stuff, including most of the relavent cards from Threshold (all versions).

9) Spectral Lynx seems like a decent enough idea. Takes care of thresh and other green creatures. Regenerates cheap enough. Does seem bad. The only down side is that I think you'd have to cut either jotun grunt or meddling mage for it, both of which doesnt seem great.

10) Umezawa's Jitte IS amazing, but it also costs 4 to get it doing anything, its probably better in the sideboard to come in against aggro if your having trouble with that match

11)Similarily, CounterTop is truely backbreaking ... ONCE its online. Its going to take you 2 turns to get it online though minimum. Those are 2 turns you can't afford when your facing goblins. Perhaps if your playing something like Chrome Mox where you could get this moving faster it would improve, but I've not seen anyone attempt the mana advantage on turn 1 like that with this deck. Might be work something to test though, especially with the countertop engine.

Thats plenty for the time being I think

[Lord_Dralnu]

I'll weigh in a little on this deck from some observations I've made...

1) I've get to figure out how this deck isnt as good, if not better than threshold. Its not graveyard dependant, its creatures are just as good, if not better. There is an amazing draw engine. Meddling Mage, StP, Force, Daze, etc are all just as solid as before.
I myself have found this matchup to be favourable and doable this deck just has good card draw to set up the turns.

2)Standstill is not really that great for this deck because it wants to play out creatures that win rather than sitting back. Also, Bob largely fills this gap.
I played against landstill and went 1-1 with the feeling that i could have won the 3rd game or also lost it, it depends on playskills and if they have deed out you have to play some threats in order for them to blow it up. I play extirpate main now due to crap like manlands and crucibles or just name whatever is relevant with Meddling mage which truely gives this deck just that lil bit more.

3)If your not playing standstill, there isnt really that big of a reason to play vial, your farther ahead with better cards in that slot with this deck
err, sorta lost ya here, what you trieng to say?

4)If your not playing the vial Serendib Efreet > Serra Avenger. 1 life is irrelevant, your putting 3 damage in there from the sky
I have not tested the efreet vial thingy, it seems like it would take up to many spots that this deck just can't sacrifice in order to bring in vial efreet thingy. Serra avenger though it costing double white has won me numerous games so this definitly stays for me

5)Mother of Runes absolutely belongs in this deck if you like winning against anything. She taps and prevents lots of targetted removal, blocks tarmogoyf, helps get your guys in. She belongs in this deck.
agree,agreed and agreed!!! MOR is fantastic in this deck the moment it hits the table my Opp is already figuring out on how to get rid of it.

6) 3 Jotun Grunt seems good for you, its potentially tech vs 'goyf and its a big cheap beater
Jotun grunt has been SO good for me in this deck, if you play this against ***** and they don't have a counter then you'll just win.

7) I've seen some lists with Shadowmage Infiltrator. Yes he's got card draw and evasion. However, he's only swinging for 1 and you've got lots of other card draw, so I'm up in the air on this one myself. Most of the time this might be better off being duress.
I have playtested the shadowmage 2x in my deck @ legacy tournament, though he often did drew me a lot of cards, it was the lack of damage that made me cut him for 2 extirpates which i found myself to be sideboarding in everytime cuz it's just that darn good

8) Spell Snare is the "hot" counter right now for a reason. It only costs 1 and it counters lots of relevant stuff, including most of the relavent cards from Threshold (all versions).
This may very well be a good counter to test in this deck, however what to take out in order to run this? daze has the surprise effect around it but spell snare may very well be surprising your opponent too, idk about this card i have yet to test it.

9) Spectral Lynx seems like a decent enough idea. Takes care of thresh and other green creatures. Regenerates cheap enough. Does seem bad. The only down side is that I think you'd have to cut either jotun grunt or meddling mage for it, both of which doesnt seem great.
Agreed, i really don't wanna lose the grunts, i might consider losing 1 mage out of the 4 but that's all really

10) Umezawa's Jitte IS amazing, but it also costs 4 to get it doing anything, its probably better in the sideboard to come in against aggro if your having trouble with that match
eventhough jitte is SICK, let that be clear, i often find myself casting it in between casting creatures and setting my draws up with my drawspells. Jitte wins games on the back of just about any creature and for thise sole purpose i have not taken them out(yet).
I do share your opinion that 4 mana is "a lot" to invest for this deck but i mean it's Umezawa's jitte this card rocks and has won me many games.

11)Similarily, CounterTop is truely backbreaking ... ONCE its online. Its going to take you 2 turns to get it online though minimum. Those are 2 turns you can't afford when your facing goblins. Perhaps if your playing something like Chrome Mox where you could get this moving faster it would improve, but I've not seen anyone attempt the mana advantage on turn 1 like that with this deck. Might be work something to test though, especially with the countertop engine.
I am not a fan of countertop, may i conclude that you suggest this in hannifish or did u just mention it?
I also don't think that speeding this decks clock up by playing chrome mox and having to remove an essential card for the mana would be good as you don't want broken turn 1's cuz your setting up your draws with either visions or brainstorm on turn 1 to make sure you get trough the next turns eassily.
Also casting MOR on turn 1 can occur.

Thats plenty for the time being I think
Thanx a lot for your input in this deck mate, i'm glad ppl are still trieng to make something out of a abandonded deck cuz it seems like everybody is abandoning Fish.

Any other ppl out there who wanna bring fish to top the again?

Let yourself be heard, give your suggestions!

ps: hanni where are you when we need you man, we need your toughts!

[JACO]

Thanx a lot for your input in this deck mate, i'm glad ppl are still trieng to make something out of a abandonded deck cuz it seems like everybody is abandoning Fish.

Any other ppl out there who wanna bring fish to top the again?

Let yourself be heard, give your suggestions!

ps: hanni where are you when we need you man, we need your toughts!I'm not sure why you people keep asking for Hanni's thoughts on Fish. He hasn't performed well enough with any variation of the deck to warrant mentioning, nor have many versions of this deck at all as presented here finished well enough to warrant mentioning.

Part of the problem is that cards like Serum Visions and Mother of Runes don't really fit what Fish decks have historically tried to do, which is to typically keep the opponent off balance long enough to win with a couple of small creatures, using tempo and resource denial of sorts.

If you want a starting point, check out the deck I top 4'd the GenCon Legacy Prelims with here (out of 73 or 78 people, I believe) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=welcome/conventions/gencon07-saturday#2). It's called BHWW TrinketTop. It uses Meddling Mage, Dark Confidant, and Trinket Mage with a small disruption and utility package, and provides many of the necessary tools to compete with today's modern metagame of fast combo, Goblins, Threshold, and most of the other random decks floating around. The deck is probably significantly different enough to warrant it's own thread, but I don't really care to start one.

If you can't do something to significantly impact your opponents or limit their options round after round, you're probably not going to have success outside of 3 or 4 round tournaments with Fish decks. Threshold beats harder and disrupts better than Hanni's version of Fish, which is why Threshold continues to win big tournaments, and Fish continues to do next to nothing most of the time.

[Citrus-God]

// Counterbalance-Trinket Fish w/ Meekstone
// Lands 18
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Island


// Creatures 17
4 Trinket Mage
4 Meddling Mage
4 Dark Confidant
3 Serra Avenger
2 Azorius Guildmage


// Spells 26
4 Brainstorm
4 Duress
4 Force of Will
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Meekstone
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
2 Umezawa's JItte


// Sideboard 15
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Counterbalance
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Extirpate
4 Engineered Plague
4 Hydroblast


Meekstone + A. Guildmage = Awesome


Inspired by JACO obv.

[thefreakaccident]

I always run 3 counterbalance, you would like to have 1 of them resolve. with only two in the deck, I don't think they will make much of an impact... the one aditional counterbalance will help greatly.

@Jaco: hey, jason deck looks good... glad to see you did well!
when are you guys going to come back to game empire?

Another note: meekstone = HOT!!!

Who cares about tarmogoyf if it can never attack, brilliant.

The card doesn't affect goblins in the least though, and I fear that the goblin MU is simply getting worse (although the other MUs may get better).

[Citrus-God]

I'm not sure what to cut for it. I'm thinking of cutting an Avenger for another Counterbalance.

[thefreakaccident]

That wouldn't be too bad of an idea... you might also consider wasteland in here, that + stifle = color screw... which seems to be very affective in oour current metagame.

[Whit3 Ghost]

Glad to see Azorius is popping up in more places, that card shuts down Goyf and can randomly screw things like Kiki Jiki.

Meekstone and Trinket Mage is awesome tech btw, props to whoever thought of that.

[Citrus-God]

Glad to see Azorius is popping up in more places, that card shuts down Goyf and can randomly screw things like Kiki Jiki.

Meekstone and Trinket Mage is awesome tech btw, props to whoever thought of that.

I cant say I thought of this list first. I might be the first to post it on these forums though. That was genius and may be one of the best tools we have to combat Goyf. I really want to put Chalice in here to find more bombs to shut thresh up.

@Wasteland: It's hard to run Wastelands in this deck. I know that in Vintage, there's a variant of Fish that dropped Wasteland from it's deck in favor of Counterbalance and Top. I'm sure we can learn a lesson from that.

[cheddercaveman]

// Counterbalance-Trinket Fish w/ Meekstone
// Lands 18
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Island


// Creatures 17
4 Trinket Mage
4 Meddling Mage
4 Dark Confidant
3 Serra Avenger
2 Azorius Guildmage


// Spells 26
4 Brainstorm
4 Duress
4 Force of Will
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Meekstone
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
2 Umezawa's JItte


// Sideboard 15
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Counterbalance
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Extirpate
4 Engineered Plague
4 Hydroblast


Meekstone + A. Guildmage = Awesome


Inspired by JACO obv.

I really like this list, definitely looks solid vs thresh and most other Aggro control and against combo. However, that said, whats the matchup like against goblins? Hydrobalst and E-Plague are hot, so I suppose that games 2 and 3 might not be bad, but your other tech doesnt seem that great against goblins (or anything similar) in game one. I agree that Meekstone is an amazing card in the current metagame. Pretty much none of the creatures in thresh untap, they don't fetch anymore, etc.

[Citrus-God]

Goblin match-up sucks. This version of the deck, IMO, is a metagame deck. If you see lots of Goblins, I'd would rather have you have Counterbalance in the Board and in place of them as Stifles.

[Lord_Dralnu]

i don't like the azorius guildmage, i have not tested it yet though it just seems far too random and i think this deck misses MOR and Stifle.

Also meekstone is only good against ********, it's not worth anything against any other deck.
A swords will take care of a goyf too without having to dedicate special maindeck cards to it.

this deck misses some punch i think, a jotun grunt is always nice to do some early damage or get rid of some creatures and this deck misses that but can obviously not play the grunt cuz of the meekstone.

Does any1 have some testresults with this deck, i'm sceptic but i find it to be an interesting deck idea i just don't wanna totaly redo my fish deck without knowing wether it'll be better or significantly worse.

lmk...

[Lemuria]

this deck misses some punch i think, a jotun grunt is always nice to do some early damage or get rid of some creatures and this deck misses that but can obviously not play the grunt cuz of the meekstone.




agreed.
I like azorius mage though, maybe this counterbalance meekstone strategy could be on the sideboard, as I did some test and the Hanni version with jotun, mother, serra avenger and shadowmage infiltrator was much more efficient for me.

Shadowmage + jitte/SoFI just blows

[thefreakaccident]

The great thing about fish is that it is meta preparable. You can alter the deck to face whatever any meta may throw at you.

For example, if you don't have aggro, but have a lot of control/combo... run duress MD. If you have lots of aggro, run more equipments and stifles.

I think stifle is good in this format and should be an autoinclude for any blue based deck.

The list I would run at my meta would probably be Jaco's list with wastelands fitted in... (there are a lot of non-basics here).

[Lord_Dralnu]

The list I would run at my meta would probably be Jaco's list with wastelands fitted in... (there are a lot of non-basics here).

The mana base really has no place at all to fit in wastelands, your coloured mana sources are so important your gonna have a hard time fitting those wastelands in bro.

And on another note,I guess i'll just edit my version of hannifish a little bit rather then building this trinket mage version.

i'll test the mainboard duresses over the serum visions and see how it works out.

[cheddercaveman]

I know I'll probably catch hell for this, but has anyone considered the possibility of cutting the black? In the main deck its really only there to play Dark Confidant, and then Duress which bounces between the main and side, and engineered plague in the sideboard. While, all of these cards are amazing, it seems like there should be other answers that are in blue and/or white. I think that something like that more than likely opens up the possibility of the counterTop engine being possible in this deck, which can be back breaking. Maybe toss in a few other artifacts too and thirst for knowledge to replace the missing card advantage of Dark Confidant?

These are only suggestions, I do like the deck as is also, but if the mana base can be more consistant (also a U/W manabase might make wasteland possible) and the deck just as hard hitting, then thats the way to go.

[BoardinCharlie]

In my personal testing of this deck dark confidant is necessary. Nothing in this deck is a HUGE threat, its the card advantage and the way the cards interact with eachother that makes it so strong. Wasn't how the original fish decks worked was by just getting a constant stream of control thrown at your face built off of card advantage and tempo. Without confidant you lack the ability to push through I feel.

Has anyone thought about throwing Dimir Cutpurse in its position. Little more power, little less toughness, but can be blocked...with mother or equipment turns into a power house. In type one it was used, mainly since there is a lot less creatures in that format during the time when this deck was created. Anyone tried it, I have but I still haven't been able to decide...

[Windux]

Just for the info:
He is swapping from Confidant to Finkel.
So all he says about Cutpurse is in relation to FINKEL not to BOB.

[centurion8]

In my personal testing of this deck dark confidant is necessary. Nothing in this deck is a HUGE threat, its the card advantage and the way the cards interact with eachother that makes it so strong. Wasn't how the original fish decks worked was by just getting a constant stream of control thrown at your face built off of card advantage and tempo. Without confidant you lack the ability to push through I feel.

Has anyone thought about throwing Dimir Cutpurse in its position. Little more power, little less toughness, but can be blocked...with mother or equipment turns into a power house. In type one it was used, mainly since there is a lot less creatures in that format during the time when this deck was created. Anyone tried it, I have but I still haven't been able to decide...

IMO:
I think you'll find the fear aspect of Shadowmage gives him an advantage over Dimir Cutpurse. Far too often the cutpurse is going to be a vanilla 2/2 where the Infiltrator could be swinging in turn after turn.
You're dead on about confidant though... This deck crumbles w/o the card advantage Bob generates

Lord_Dralnu:
Any luck w/ the Duress MD? I found the lack of card draw/deck manipulation lost by cutting Visions really hurt the deck, and just wondering what others were finding?

[Lord_Dralnu]

IMO:
I think you'll find the fear aspect of Shadowmage gives him an advantage over Dimir Cutpurse. Far too often the cutpurse is going to be a vanilla 2/2 where the Infiltrator could be swinging in turn after turn.
You're dead on about confidant though... This deck crumbles w/o the card advantage Bob generates

Lord_Dralnu:
Any luck w/ the Duress MD? I found the lack of card draw/deck manipulation lost by cutting Visions really hurt the deck, and just wondering what others were finding?


Hey man, ya i actually moved the serum visions back main deck.
You just really need those 8 1cmc card drawers, they allow you to set up your hand for the following turns and allow you to keep a one land hander.
Duress is now definitly staying in the sideboard for me.
And besides against combo you already have mage, counters and stifle.
You shouldn't weaken your general matchups to get a better combo matchup cuz this deck has a great combo matchup as it is already.

[Lemuria]

Threshold is a very difficult matchup but I'm doing fine against them even with duress on the SB. I think Fish it's most based on play skill rather then the cards itself. A very well placed stifle can be a timewalk/sinkhole power, it can do miracles for you. I remeber I won a game against goblins just because I stifled a mogg and a matron.

So I'm thinking about include a 4th stifle MD. What do you guys think?

ps: if that neo duress preview is for real, no doubt I'll find a room to place 3/4main deck

[Mulletus]

I am fooling around with a new creature line up. Mainly becaue of the new tarmagoyf world we live. The main new additive is spectral lynx. It's unblockable by goyf and goose, and it blocks them all day. Also it regenerates if a proclasm gets thru or if I need to pop my explosives for 2. They fit right into the curve, and no need to worry about the double white. I like to leave that one white open for swords. I want to keep 16 creatures but fit at least two of these in. I am new to playing islands, so let me know what you control players think.

[centurion8]

I am fooling around with a new creature line up. Mainly becaue of the new tarmagoyf world we live. The main new additive is spectral lynx. It's unblockable by goyf and goose, and it blocks them all day. Also it regenerates if a proclasm gets thru or if I need to pop my explosives for 2. They fit right into the curve, and no need to worry about the double white. I like to leave that one white open for swords. I want to keep 16 creatures but fit at least two of these in. I am new to playing islands, so let me know what you control players think.

Are people really having that much trouble w/ Goyf? Most of the time he's not bigger than grunt (and if you have a grunt down...well, does goyf really even matter?) and he makes all those dead StP you can't use on Mongoose actually worth something. I think SB Smother is a better answer to the thresh match-up if your meta is really heavy. But, what are you considering cutting for the lynxes?

[Hanni]

U/W/b Neo Fish (Post Future Sight)

Lands (17)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Creatures (16)
4 Spectral Lynx
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Serra Avenger
4 Dark Confidant
2 Shadowmage Infiltrator

Spells (27)
4 Brainstorm
4 Portent
3 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Sideboard (15)
3 Threads of Disloyalty
3 Duress
3 Extirpate
2 Vindicate
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Pithing Needle


The manabase is the same, as always.

The creature base drastically changes. Meddling Mage is not really that strong anymore, considering that most combo decks now have either ways of removing it (like Crippling Fatigue), or they simply have multiple win conditions that they can win with. It's decent against Threshold and other decks, but it really is the weakest creature in the deck. A 2/2 for 2 is pretty bad in a meta where everyone else casts a 6/7 for 2. Without Mage, there is less need for Mother of Runes. While Mom is an amazing creature in Fish, I'm not quite sure that it is necessary in this metagame. On it's own, it's not very good. Mom is meant to be a support creature to the rest of the creature base... Mom is more like a piece of equipment than it is like a creature. While Mom does protect the rest of my guys, it's not really needed as badly as it was with Mage... with Mage, the deck had 8 creatures (Confidant and Mage) that were AWFUL in combat without a Mom or Jitte. Without Mage, the deck only has 4 creatures that are awful in combat now. Not only that, Spectral Lynx has built in pro green, which also reduces the necessity for Mom IMO.

The addition of Spectral Lynx gives the deck 7 creature answers to Tarmogoyf. Almost everyone is playing Goyf nowadays it seems, so this is definitely not overkill. Threshold appears to be the most popular deck; it does not hurt to add additional tools to combat Thresh with. The regeneration itself is strong against Goblins as well, even though Goblins appears to be dying out.

The 3rd Avenger gives the deck an additional badass to beat down with. It flies over Goyfs and is simply amazing with a Jitte.

The Shadowmages have been awesome ever since I started testing them after GP Columbus. The additional evasion and type of evasion itself is nice for carrying Jitte through. The 3cc gives it some resilliency vs EE and Counterbalance. It's blue so it pumps my blue spell count up. Most importantly, it acts like Confidants #5 and #6. Confidant wins games. Shadowmage is no exception. This deck may not beat down as quickly as Threshold does but the card advantage it develops can be overwhelming. Aside from playing against combo, this deck generally plays a defensive game early using cards like FoW, Daze, Stifle, and StP until it can start dropping bombs like Avenger and Shadowmage and then equip them. This means the deck is more of a mid game deck than an early game deck and card advantage is essential.

The deck might not beat down as quickly as Threshold, but that doesn't mean it doesn't beat down as hard. In fact, it beats down as hard or harder. Jitte is the decks equivalant to Mystic Enforcer... a 4cc spell that turns even my smallest creatures into 6/5's. I also run a lone SoFI so that the deck has 4 equipment spells. Aside from playing against combo, this deck generally plays a defensive game early using cards like FoW, Daze, Stifle, and StP until it can start dropping bombs like Avenger and Shadowmage and then equip them. Equipment is crucial and running 4 helps. Especially with the lack of Mom (which was essentially an equipment spell), going up to 4 equipment pieces has been working wonders.

I switched to Portent to improve my early game control by drawing into FoW/Daze sooner. Since LD is less prevelant in this meta than it used to be, the deck doesn't really need the better dig for lands. The ability to screw over the opponent's topdecks later on can be valuable as well.

21 blue spells should be plenty to support FoW.

As far as the sideboard goes, Threads is for Threshold or other decks with Goyf. Duress is for combo and control. Extirpate is for control decks... it answers low threat density's (like manlands) as well as recurring problems (like Loam). Extirpate can be useful against combo and even Thresh if necessary (1-2 win conditions/low threat count). Vindicate is just versatile removal; EE is versatile removal that handles EtW tokens. Needle is a versatile answer to everything else. The sideboard is not fine tuned, it's just thrown together for now. I don't really think E Plague is necessary in this metagame... actually, although I have not playtested the Goblins matchup at all with this decklist, I think the matchup might actually be pretty solid.

EDIT:

MD
-1 Daze
-1 Jitte
-1 SoFI
+3 Duress

SB
-2 Duress
+1 Jitte
+1 Sensei's Divining Top

[Lemuria]

U/W/b Fish (Post Future Sight)

Lands (17)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Creatures (16)
4 Spectral Lynx
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Serra Avenger
4 Dark Confidant
2 Shadowmage Infiltrator

Spells (27)
4 Brainstorm
4 Portent
3 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Sideboard (15)
3 Threads of Disloyalty
3 Duress
3 Extirpate
2 Vindicate
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Pithing Needle



I don't know if a third avenger is really necessary, because I really don't like to see them in my opening hand, however, the extra jitte seems nice. As for Thresh, I don't know about you guys, but my biggest problem it's not tarmogoyf itself, but the entire synergy of the deck. I could handle tarmogoyf pretty much, naming them with Meddling Mage (I can't see him leaving the deck either) backuped with counters, STP also do a great job.

But Threshold has so many ways to deal with you, specially UGr with their bolts and fire/ices, that they just can negate your lynx as well as they do to your other creatures, not to mention their abusive ammount of counters.

So, you see, tarmogoyf it's a clock piece that you can normally deal with your own stp or counters (sure, he's still a bitch), and I died most of the time to multiples moongose and/or dryads. In this match, playskill it's what worths the most IMO.

The inclusion of an extra counter seems nice as well, but what about a 4th stifle instead of a 4th daze? They're just worthless from mid game to late game.

[centurion8]

I don't know if a third avenger is really necessary, because I really don't like to see them in my opening hand, however, the extra jitte seems nice. As for Thresh, I don't know about you guys, but my biggest problem it's not tarmogoyf itself, but the entire synergy of the deck. I could handle tarmogoyf pretty much, naming them with Meddling Mage (I can't see him leaving the deck either) backuped with counters, STP also do a great job.

But Threshold has so many ways to deal with you, specially UGr with their bolts and fire/ices, that they just can negate your lynx as well as they do to your other creatures, not to mention their abusive ammount of counters.

So, you see, tarmogoyf it's a clock piece that you can normally deal with your own stp or counters (sure, he's still a bitch), and I died most of the time to multiples moongose and/or dryads. In this match, playskill it's what worths the most IMO.

The inclusion of an extra counter seems nice as well, but what about a 4th stifle instead of a 4th daze? They're just worthless from mid game to late game.

I think 3x Avenger is the right number. In all of my testing/playing if an Avenger and Jitte/SoFI are on the board the game is over (okay, except against combo). I completely agree w/ Mage in the deck as well (I usually go for Bolt w/ the 1st one against thresh however). I don't like the idea of dedicating 4 MD slots to a creature who only shines against one deck, but I haven't tested Lynx and will not knock it too hard...
I do think you're completely dead on Lemuria about the Thresh match-up. I think it's about 50% playskill, 50% whether they're holding SpellSnare for your 2 drop on the play.
Calling Goyf a solid creature is an understatement, but personally I fear the creatures of truffle-shuffle and pernicious deed more than him any day of the week...

[Hanni]

I don't know if a third avenger is really necessary, because I really don't like to see them in my opening hand, however, the extra jitte seems nice

A 3-of really isn't too big of a deal, but even if it's in the opening hand, you more than likely have a ton of other spells you're going to be able to play instead up to turn 4. A 3/3 flyer with vigilance is just really good, IMO, and gets even better with equipment. The weakest part of Fish, for the most part, has always been low p/t beaters. 3 Avenger 3 Grunt helps greatly in this department.

You are dead on about the 3rd Jitte though. The 3 Jitte 1 SoFI have been making my aggro package extremely brutal.


I completely agree w/ Mage in the deck as well (I usually go for Bolt w/ the 1st one against thresh however).

Mages greatest strength was against combo. It is no longer the house it once was. Naming Bolt is nice and all. It's still a 2cc 2/2. I'd rather just regenerate through Bolt (Lynx) or dodge it altogether (Grunt). The equipment pulls my creautures out of burn range and I run my own StP's (so naming them with Mage is going to also hurt me a little).


I don't like the idea of dedicating 4 MD slots to a creature who only shines against one deck, but I haven't tested Lynx and will not knock it too hard...


Lynx doesn't just shine against one deck. It replaces Mage. It's a 2/1 for 2cc that can regenerate itself. That's good against just about everything as a chump blocker or Jitte carrier. It can dodge burn too. Another thing to keep in mind is... Goyf isn't being run in only one deck. Goyf, as per my reading of this forum, composes around 50% or more of the metagame. So Lynx is going to improve 50% or more of my matchups. It's obviously a metagame creature. Fish is a deck that can be prepared via metagame. Therefore, I think running Lynx right now is a strong option.


But Threshold has so many ways to deal with you, specially UGr with their bolts and fire/ices, that they just can negate your lynx as well as they do to your other creatures, not to mention their abusive ammount of counters.


Threshold is an easy matchup. It always was an easy matchup. It's even easier now since I've metagamed for it. The only problem card they have is Counterbalance, which is only really problematic if they have Top in play. The reasoning here is that they run alot of 1cc cards while Fish runs more 2cc cards. So if they are randomly revealing with Counterbalance, chances are that their deck doesn't have enough 2cc spells to consistently shut Fish down. If they have Top, it can be a nightmare. Luckily, this deck has some 3cc cards to help avoid Counterbalance even further (pre and post board).

They win, aside from burn, with 4 Mongoose 4 Goyf (other than that, the builds vary). This deck runs 4 Lynx 3 Grunt. Lynx chumps either one and cannot be killed by burn (mana pending). Grunt outsizes Mongoose and can shrink him to 1/1; Grunt shrinks Goyf and outsizes him when he's 3/4. Avenger trades with Mongoose if necessary. StP answers Goyf if necessary. Jitte turns even my weakest guy (Confidant) into a house that answers Mongoose and Goyf as well.

I'm not scared of Spell Snare. Yes, it counters many of my spells. It's not like it's a huge difference from Counterspell, which every Thresh list used to run. The big difference is that it's 1cc, so they gain a bit more tempo. I'm not really concerned if Thresh gains a little more early game tempo. It's relatively easy to stabilize early on and I just about always win, for a number of reasons, when the game goes long.

Why would cards like Bolt and Fire//Ice be a problem? Aside from maybe the damage to the face factor of those spells, I think I'd be more worried about StP. Even vs Thresh/w, I still haven't had many problems. As I said, Counterbalance/Top is the only seriously dangerous threat they have.


The inclusion of an extra counter seems nice as well, but what about a 4th stifle instead of a 4th daze? They're just worthless from mid game to late game.


I forgot to say, in my post, why I went up to 4 Dazes. My appologies. The reason for the 4th Daze is because this deck is slow to start. Most of it's threats are 2cc and it usually wants to commit more than 1 guy to the board at a time (or 1 with an equipment piece). This deck has a much higher mana curve than Threshold and it also wants to abuse card advantage engines which are also a bit slow. Therefore, it needs to utilize more early game tempo elements so that it can make it to the mid game. While Stifle is decent for stealing tempo early by hitting a fetch, it's not going to be as consistently good as Daze in the early game. Since my deck is so overpowering in the mid game, I'm not worried if Daze is worthless or not. It's still blue and pitches to FoW, so it's all good. Not only that but Stifle is awful against some decks (like Thresh, for example).


I do think you're completely dead on Lemuria about the Thresh match-up. I think it's about 50% playskill, 50% whether they're holding SpellSnare for your 2 drop on the play.


Most matchups with Fish will be somewhere around 50/50 and playskill based, because Fish is a deck that has nearly all the tools to beat nearly every deck but a ton of decisions (and a little luck of the draw) to be made to do so. In the case of Thresh, though, it's not 50/50. If it were 50/50, I'd metagame the deck even more to handle them. I think MD Lynx with sideboard Threads are more than enough new metagame additions to handle Threshold of any splash.


Calling Goyf a solid creature is an understatement, but personally I fear the creatures of truffle-shuffle and pernicious deed more than him any day of the week...

Yes, and that is why I have Extirpate and Pithing Needle in my sideboard.

[Lemuria]

I see your point.

But tell me, how are you doing without Mother of Runes? Is she really not necessary anymore?

I always liked her as she saved my butt inumerous times cause she can stop almost every big threat, and also, allows your equipped guys to pass through.

[Lord_Dralnu]

Hanni i see you ditched good old serum visions and went for Portent, you named the option to look at your opponents library also but in lil less then 2 weeks lorwyn cards will be available for play(not legal yet but you'll get what i mean)
And a lorwyn offers us a card of which i think it is better then portent.

Ponder
Sorcery
Look at the top three cards of your library, then put them back in any order. You may shuffle your library.
Draw a card.

I find the direct cantrip effect to be better then the portent cantrip effect, would this card be a logical MD inclusion over portent once it comes out?

Furthermore i can see why you also ditched MOR and Mage, MOR was only really inthere to protect mages.
Losing mage also makes you lose a weapon, mage isn't bad vs *****(naming goyf?) you can always board out swords and board in vindicates instead in order to name swords.

But i don't really agree about your configuration of Serra avengers and jittes, do you feel that it is a necessity to up your jitte and avenger count to give this deck a lil bit more punch?
I think we could aswell run 3 other cards instead of
1 jitte
1 daze
1 avenger

Maybe lorwyn will offer us something nice to run, a crazy suggestion might be maindecking engineered explosives to give another mainboard weapon against creature decks and just annoing permanents, how do you like that a boardsweeper in hannifish.
A spectral lynx will also gladly regenerate through it all day long and can swing (FTW) carrieng a jitte, and in that case your configuration of 3 jittes may be the correct one.
How does that idea sound to you guys?

[xsockmonkeyx]

Hanni[/B];163118]
4 Portent


WTF? When did this happen?

Hanni, do you think you could work in a couple of Tops for the lategame? Card selection aside, it keeps you from bleeding your life away to confidant towards the end of the game. It also brings the possibility of Countertop out of the board.

[Hanni]

Hanni i see you ditched good old serum visions and went for Portent, you named the option to look at your opponents library also but in lil less then 2 weeks lorwyn cards will be available for play(not legal yet but you'll get what i mean)
And a lorwyn offers us a card of which i think it is better then portent.

Ponder
Sorcery
Look at the top three cards of your library, then put them back in any order. You may shuffle your library.
Draw a card.

I find the direct cantrip effect to be better then the portent cantrip effect, would this card be a logical MD inclusion over portent once it comes out?



[QUOTE Hanni;163118]
4 Portent

WTF? When did this happen?

Hanni, do you think you could work in a couple of Tops for the lategame? Card selection aside, it keeps you from bleeding your life away to confidant towards the end of the game. It also brings the possibility of Countertop out of the board.

"I switched to Portent to improve my early game control by drawing into FoW/Daze sooner. Since LD is less prevelant in this meta than it used to be, the deck doesn't really need the better dig for lands. The ability to screw over the opponent's topdecks later on can be valuable as well."

I still stand by Serum Visions being a superior dig spell 100%. However, LD is far less of a concern in the current metagame than it has ever been since I've been playing. For that reason, this deck no longer needs to dig as well early on to stabalize the manabase. Portent is a better cantrip in the mid-late game, IMO, since it can screw the opponent's topdeck over. Since this deck has draw with Confidant/Shadowmage as it is, it will rarely need to manipulate the top cards of library (unless low on life with Confidant, where Portent is still better than SV anyway).

I'd rather run Portent instead of Ponder. The ability to screw over topdecks allows this deck to either recover mid-late if it's behind, or to stay ahead mid-late. Both of these reasons have been huge in testing so far. I have not yet tested Ponder though, so it may possibly be better. Honestly though, I'd probably revert back to SV before Ponder.


Hanni, do you think you could work in a couple of Tops for the lategame? Card selection aside, it keeps you from bleeding your life away to confidant towards the end of the game. It also brings the possibility of Countertop out of the board.

I was considering 1 Top in SoFI's spot. Then I remembered I had 8 cantrips and 6 creatures with card drawing abilities. In all honesty, this deck doesn't really need any more draw power... the deck already has a shitload of it. I'm sure some players may want a Top or 2... that's fine. I'm not trying to convince anyone to run my specific build of Fish. Especially since my build of Fish, for the current meta, is far from fine-tuned. However, I do not think the bleed of lategame Confidant's is that bad... and I also do not think Counterbalance is necessary unless Fish/Slivers become heavy in the meta. Thresh runs far more 1cc spells than Fish, so without Top, a blind Counterbalance will be ass. Vs the mirror or Slivers, sure. I'd much rather run Threads of Disloyalty as SB hate vs Thresh though. You may try to say that Counterbalance is strong in other matchups besides Thresh. I really don't like Counterbalance vs combo because it is slow and unreliable in all of my lots of testing with it. I do not like it vs Control because their majority cc range is much higher than my own, usually. I think Counterbalance is great in Thresh. I think Counterbalance is much weaker in Fish.


But i don't really agree about your configuration of Serra avengers and jittes, do you feel that it is a necessity to up your jitte and avenger count to give this deck a lil bit more punch?
I think we could aswell run 3 other cards instead of
1 jitte
1 daze
1 avenger


I think you are right that 3 other cards can fit in. Avenger isn't the 3rd card I'd want to drop though. Even though Avengers cannot come down until turn 4, they are arguably the best creature in the deck. 2cc for a 3/3 flying vigilance is great. It's the largest creature in the deck aside from Grunt (which doesn't last forever), and it's abilities are also amazing.

I like the 4th Daze because it assists me in dominating the early game (at least defensively). However, 1 can be dropped if I add additional control spells.

I was advocating the 4 equipment spells heavily before but I've changed my mind. I haven't played vs aggro much at all lately (aside from Thresh), which makes me want equipment less. Equipment is awful vs combo, which still seems huge. Against Thresh, the deck doesn't really need alot of equipment either.

-1 Daze
-1 Jitte
-1 SoFI
+3 Duress

2 Jitte should still be findable with the draw package this deck has. I'll pack a 3rd in the SB for aggro matchups. SoFI just raises the cc curve of the deck too high, IMO.

Duress is amazing against just about every single deck I've played against expect Goblins. Since Goblins appears to be in decline, this makes Duress awesome MD material. If Neo-Duress is actually real (which I HIGHLY doubt), I may switch to that.

In the SB
-2 Duress
+1 Umezawa's Jitte
+1 Sensei's Divining Top

The 1-of Top can come in against board control and other slow decks to obtain better card quality. 3 Extirpate and 1 Top (and possibly Vindicates and Needles) should be able to handle those matchups, considering that they will probably be the hardest. I really don't see aggro as being too difficult... this deck shouldn't really get walked all over by aggro if played right. Regardless, I haven't been seeing a meta rife with aggro anyway.

EDIT: Ponder may still be a good option. I don't think any of the popular cantrips (aside from Brainstorm) is strictly better than any other. Each has pro's and con's. Serum Visions is still a great cards, Portent is great, Sleight of Hand is also a good cantrip IMO, and now Ponder is also great. Just test around with different configurations until you find one that you prefer.

The neo-Duress, Thoughtseize. Wow. I'm not sure entirely if I'd want to run it since this deck has problems with life loss via fetches and Confidant, but it is so much stronger than Duress. This deck does run Jittes though... I'm thinking that I'll probably replace the Duress' with Thoughtseizes when Thoughtseize gets printed. Wowza. This new Lorwyn set is like the best set I've ever seen printed... almost half the set looks Legacy playable.

EDIT 2: When did this deck get moved to DTB status... and why? I'm just curious, since I haven't been on the forums for a month or two and I haven't really seen anything about Fish since GP Columbus.....

[Hanni]

My apology, I didn't mean to dodge your question. I forgot to address it.

While I am a huge advocate of aggro/board control strategies (look at Deadguy Rock and DAT in my signature), that strategy doesn't work well in Fish. Aggro/board control strategies are my new favorite archtype... but it doesn't work well in Fish. Fish plays too many permanents. Even if Lynx can regenerate and even if Shadowmage is out of the cc range, the deck still has too many other cards (creatures + Jitte) that get nuked by my own EE when set at 2 (which just happens to be the most popular setting besides 0). This deck has no recur engine like DAT does (Genesis). I'd much rather just target my opponent's guys with spot removal or Jitte counters... otherwise, I can use either Force/Daze if I really need to, or I can simply just use my own creatures as defense/offense vs my opponent's creatures. Lynx will block just about anything and live, Grunt has a fat ass, Avenger is pretty solid in size and can both attack and block. If I need to answer some artifact/enchantment, I have Duress/Daze/Force and possibly Stifle MD with EE and Vindicate in the sideboard.

EE is still a good card though against certain matchups though (like Belcher, Zoo, etc). That's why I have 2 in my sideboard. If you want to MD EE's, it's not going to hurt too bad. I just don't like the antisynergy between EE and the rest of my deck enough to want to maindeck them myself. I think internal synergy is the greatest strength of Fish and is one of the reasons the deck works so well for me.

EDIT: Oh, and I just wanted to address this real quick. I saw Jaco had posted this and I'd like to reply:


I'm not sure why you people keep asking for Hanni's thoughts on Fish. He hasn't performed well enough with any variation of the deck to warrant mentioning, nor have many versions of this deck at all as presented here finished well enough to warrant mentioning.

I haven't performed well because I don't really play in tournaments. I've played in 4 magic tournaments my whole life. My first was the D4D in Roanoke, where I did place 10th with a version of Fish that wasn't fully tuned and with a ton of personal misplays. I did well at a Meandeck Open in Columbus, I did well at a local GP Trial. I did horrible at GP Columbus for a few reasons... first of all, I played like shit that day. Second of all, I never got to play against Flash once... all of my matchups were against Fish decks that were designed to beat the mirror. Go figure. I didn't expect the meta to be 30%+ Fish.

Just because I personally haven't put up enough tournament results for your liking, do not discount the Germans. Go look at the German (and Dutch too, I believe) results for Fish. Then look at their lists and notice that they are pretty much identical to the lists I've made.

So I don't have lots of tournament results. That doesn't mean I haven't playtested the living shit out of Fish. Just because I haven't placed well in tournaments doesn't mean that I didn't revive a dead archtype, rebuild it, and end up with something that's highly competitive. And I'm not saying I did any of this alone either, I had lots of help along the way. But to say that none of my work is warranted or worth mentioning is just insulting.

[Lord_Dralnu]

My apology, I didn't mean to dodge your question. I forgot to address it.

While I am a huge advocate of aggro/board control strategies (look at Deadguy Rock and DAT in my signature), that strategy doesn't work well in Fish. Aggro/board control strategies are my new favorite archtype... but it doesn't work well in Fish. Fish plays too many permanents. Even if Lynx can regenerate and even if Shadowmage is out of the cc range, the deck still has too many other cards (creatures + Jitte) that get nuked by my own EE when set at 2 (which just happens to be the most popular setting besides 0). This deck has no recur engine like DAT does (Genesis). I'd much rather just target my opponent's guys with spot removal or Jitte counters... otherwise, I can use either Force/Daze if I really need to, or I can simply just use my own creatures as defense/offense vs my opponent's creatures. Lynx will block just about anything and live, Grunt has a fat ass, Avenger is pretty solid in size and can both attack and block. If I need to answer some artifact/enchantment, I have Duress/Daze/Force and possibly Stifle MD with EE and Vindicate in the sideboard.

EE is still a good card though against certain matchups though (like Belcher, Zoo, etc). That's why I have 2 in my sideboard. If you want to MD EE's, it's not going to hurt too bad. I just don't like the antisynergy between EE and the rest of my deck enough to want to maindeck them myself. I think internal synergy is the greatest strength of Fish and is one of the reasons the deck works so well for me.


Hehe Hanni, i would like to apologize for being a nubby lol. i misread the wording of the EE, maindecking this is obviously not good as it destroyes only 1 specific converted mana cost, i thought it worked like a P. Deed, why can't we have a blue black deed lawl? So sory hehe.
Do stick around as i got a post coming around regarding the sideboard which i'll launch in a sec so stick around cuz i wanna discuss this with you and the rest of the ppl that are present. i just needed to read all your info again so i wouldn't post any stupid sideboard questions.

[Lord_Dralnu]

with all the new inclusions from the SB into the maindeck i think the sideboard needs to have a good clean polish cuz my sideboard looks very random now, as will any SB look like for those who have been anticipating on these build's chances.

obviously the 4 vindicates aren't as good nemore in the SB since the mage plan with swords is gone?

First of all the SB no longer includes engineered plague? what if you run into a goblin deck?
Let's say i go to a legacy tournament then i'll always see like 2-3 goblin decks in a tournament of like 35 people.

It would however be handy not to pack 4 EE's nemore but 3, so we could have a versatile boarding plan (- duress + 3EE's against goblins)

I'm a lil confused regarding the sideboard now.
Right now I have
2 vindicates
3 engineered plagues
2 pithing needle
1 umezawa's jitte (is it really needed to have this in the sideboard, when will you board it in, and agains what?)
3 Extirpate(why the specific number of 3?)

Could you post a entire new decklist + SB with some info pls, i can see a lot of ppl having trouble following hehe, including me hehe.

Thanx in advance

Kind regards

Sean

[Hanni]

obviously the 4 vindicates aren't as good nemore in the SB since the mage plan with swords is gone?


Pretty much. The whole reason I ran 4 before was to replace StP against decks that also ran StP. 2 should be enough in the SB to answer randomness... the deck still has countermagic and discard to answer most problematic things.


First of all the SB no longer includes engineered plague? what if you run into a goblin deck?
Let's say i go to a legacy tournament then i'll always see like 2-3 goblin decks in a tournament of like 35 people.


Plague is pretty much dead against everything besides Goblins. It's too slow without Ritual vs EtW. Goblins is not large enough of a metagame factor anymore to SB 4 cards for just 1 matchup. I don't even think the Goblins matchup is necessarily that bad anyway, especially if the MD Duress get replaced with Thoughtseize. The deck no longer runs Meddling Mage, and Spectral Lynx should be fairly good against Goblins (answers Piledrivers). The 3rd Jitte and 2 Pithing Needle's from the board can come in vs Goblins, so the deck still has some SB material vs them.


1 umezawa's jitte (is it really needed to have this in the sideboard, when will you board it in, and agains what?)
3 Extirpate(why the specific number of 3?)


The 3rd Jitte comes in against aggro. Whether it be Goblins, Affinity, whatever.

I run 3 Extirpates because I've always been comfortable with 3. Same thing with Duress and Daze MD. That's mostly just a personal preference and is probably an inperfection. Either way, 3 Extirpates will usually be enough to assist my (board) control matchups like Landstill and Truffle Shuffle.


Could you post a entire new decklist + SB with some info pls, i can see a lot of ppl having trouble following hehe, including me hehe.


Well the last few posts pretty much have all the new info (and I have to leave to go to work in 15 minutes) but I'll post the new decklist and sideboard.

U/W/b Neo Fish

Lands (17)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Creatures (16)
4 Spectral Lynx
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Serra Avenger
4 Dark Confidant
2 Shadowmage Infiltrator

Spells (27)
4 Brainstorm
4 Portent
3 Stifle
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Duress/Thoughtseize
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard (15)
3 Threads of Disloyalty
1 Duress/Thoughtseize
3 Extirpate
2 Vindicate
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Pithing Needle
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte

[Lord_Dralnu]

Thoughtseize: WAUW, what to say, i'm absolutely stunned with this card i think this will replace duress the life loss of 2 won't matter that much i think, we have jitte to prevent that. and ya somethimes it will prolly be a bad card but duress is sometimes a bad card too late game, Thoughtseize picks a NONland card where duress doesn't.

Thanx for the info i'll get me some Lynxes now any1 wanna donate me 4 lol?:tongue:

Since i don't have any threads of disloyalty i'll just go with my 3 engineered plagues anyway for now, adding 2 Engineered explosives will finish my SB.

tnx for posting that decklist hanni, i'll be looking to testplay with this deck now tnx for the info.

[xsockmonkeyx]

You may try to say that Counterbalance is strong in other matchups besides Thresh. I really don't like Counterbalance vs combo because it is slow and unreliable in all of my lots of testing with it. I do not like it vs Control because their majority cc range is much higher than my own, usually. I think Counterbalance is great in Thresh. I think Counterbalance is much weaker in Fish.

My main concern was the control matchup. Ive found that its frustrating to not be able to counterbalance control's spells as consistently as you can vs slivers/fish. However, Ive also found that, despite this, countertop still a solid path to victory vs. control. IMO, gives you a significantly better chance in the long game, especially against Landstill and other decks that rely on their ability to exploit CA.

[Lord_Dralnu]

With what i experience so far against any landstill build, i really like the extirpate on a a manland which i STP'd or on there crucible of worlds, it makes it more difficult for them to win and it's not like they are able to counter that extirpate, it provides a smoother gameplay against them so i always board in extirpates against them, but i've also found out that Shadowmages aren't that handy against landstil and that's a pitty really.

[Hanni]

My main concern was the control matchup. Ive found that its frustrating to not be able to counterbalance control spell as consistently as you can vs slivers/fish. However, Ive also found that despite this its still a solid path to victory vs. control. IMO, gives you a significantly better chance to in the long game, especially against Landstill and other decks that rely on their ability to exploit CA.


With what i experience so far against any landstill build, i really like the extirpate on a a manland which i STP'd or on there crucible of worlds, it makes it more difficult for them to win and it's not like they are able to counter that extirpate, it provides a smoother gameplay against them so i always board in extirpates against them, but i've also found out that Shadowmages aren't that handy against landstil and that's a pitty really.

I agree that CB can be a nice virtual card advantage engine against control decks. My only problem is that it only counters a few of the cards that I really want to counter. Deed, Crucible, FoF, Force of Will, Haunting Echoes, and that sorta stuff. Albeit it will answer Standstill most of the time and it has the possibility of answering StP, I think I'd much rather just bring in the other cards I have. Like... Needle. Needle on Deed is pretty damn good. Extirpate is also pretty awesome. Extirpate also has the ability to hit Cephalid Breakfast and Ichorid. I'm not a big Counterbalance supporter. I think it's highly overrated. It's great in Thresh because it is extremely strong in the mirror match but I don't think it needs to go into every single deck playing blue like I've been seeing lately. I've tested in a large number of decks and I'm just not the biggest fan. With Top, it can be devastating. Without Top, it's not really that amazing (except in a mirror match).

I find Shadowmage to be really nice vs Landstill since it causes them to pop their Deed at 3, removing their own Crucible. Also, the extra card draw is also strong vs Landstill. If a Shadowmage (or Confidant) stays alive long enough, I gain a huge advantage in the matchup by maintaining a similar CA.

[Lord_Dralnu]

I find Shadowmage to be really nice vs Landstill since it causes them to pop their Deed at 3, removing their own Crucible. Also, the extra card draw is also strong vs Landstill. If a Shadowmage (or Confidant) stays alive long enough, I gain a huge advantage in the matchup by maintaining a similar CA.

I played the match agains landstill and found shadowmage to be poor.
I mean they can just animate a mishra's factory and block with it and pump it before damage is on the stack which results in nothing really and you don't get to draw a card, it gets even worse if they have 3 mishra's factories cuz then they can block your finkel dead.

Standstill also really doesn't pop there deed very eassily, that's what i've witnessed, i had to play some spells that could actually matter while i held my bussines creatures which i drew.
it took me a while for him to finally realize that he should pop his deed.
If they have a crucible out they can just recur the manlands which you destroy and they prolly won't pop there dead unless you keep beating them with an avenger which has CMC 2 and that still leaves them with there crucible.... idk just what i witnessed i hope you can see what i'm trieng to tell.

Also hanni check your pm's pls.

grtz

[Illissius]

I played the match agains landstill and found shadowmage to be poor.
I mean they can just animate a mishra's factory and block with it and pump it before damage is on the stack which results in nothing really and you don't get to draw a card, it gets even worse if they have 3 mishra's factories cuz then they can block your finkel dead.

Er, a single Factory kills Finkel dead. Are you thinking of Blinkmoth Nexus? Even then, you only need two...

[Lemuria]

So, we have a new weapon...ThoughtSeize.

How MD it? maybe taking out the 2 finkel and 1 equipment to fit at least 3 of them? I would run four, but I don't know what else to cut.

[Lord_Dralnu]

So, we have a new weapon...ThoughtSeize.

How MD it? maybe taking out the 2 finkel and 1 equipment to fit at least 3 of them? I would run four, but I don't know what else to cut.


I don't think we should take out the finkels and the equipment, we just replace the duresses with the Thoughtseize?

[Lemuria]

Can you put your current list here just to have an idea of your building?

I run my actual list without duress md, so I'm in doubt.

[Lord_Dralnu]

hey,

I'm currently testing the almost exact same build as Hanni

U/W/b Neo Fish

Lands (17)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Creatures (16)
4 Spectral Lynx
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Serra Avenger (currently i really don't like the avenger as a 3 off it sometimes fills up my opening hand and i draw them when i really can't cast them yet, the avenger would be better as a 2-off leaving a spot open for something new)
4 Dark Confidant
2 Shadowmage Infiltrator

Spells (27)
4 Brainstorm
4 Portent (i'm playing serum visions though, will replace with ponder)
3 Stifle
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Duress/Thoughtseize
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard (15)
3 Engineered plague (hanni is playing threads of disloyalty, i don't like it)
1 Duress/Thoughtseize
3 Extirpate
2 Vindicate
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Pithing Needle
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte

[Lord_Dralnu]

ok so i took a couple of sample hands and played a bunch of solitaire games.

Remarks:
I will definitly miss Meddling mage.
I'm getting sick of the numberous Serra avengers i've been drawing lately before turn 4 where i wished that 3rd serra avenger was something else and where i even wished that 2nd serra avenger was something else.

I think an optimal list should still run a package of 4 meddling mage, this card is still very handy and will give you wins when you aim it right, due to the maindecking of duress/thoughtseize mage will be better again.

I'm thinking of removing an avenger for a meddling mage, the only other problem is where will i find the room for the other 3 mages.
I can also see myself cutting the Shadowmage infiltrators though i know they are good i think i'll like meddling mage a lot better because ponder will be a better cantrip then serum visions i think therefore making the cantrip package sufficient as it is already.

Can any1 follow me with these changes
-2 finkels
-1 avenger
-1 ?????? suggestions?

+4 meddling mage (this is also good against cephalid breakfast because duress doesn't get rid of there creatures, i know thoughtseize will but mage is just so good)

The lack of MOR in this deck may be troublesome(it protects mage but it can be peedled and stifled) but for now i think spectral lynx will fit in this deck better due to tarmogoyfs.

Comments/hints/tips/critics????

[centurion8]

Has anyone considered adding Wasteland to the deck w/ the emergence of Thoughtsieze? Being able to pull a land from their hand or Stifle-ing a fetch turn 1, and wasting a land turn 2 seems like a good strategy for the deck. I first got turned onto legacy fish after playing UW vintage fish (which hates on mana via null rod, waste/strip mine, and kataki) and think the addition could be nice.
I know previously the lack of color mana producing lands was very detrimental, but w/ the change from MM to Lynx, and the drop of Wasteland being played in the format w/ Goblins being in hibernation (at least in the Michigan meta) I think it could be a strong move.

Proposed UWb Fish w/ Thoughtseize

Land:
3x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand
4x Tundra
3x Underground Sea
1x Scrubland
4x Wasteland

Creatures:
4x Spectral Lynx
4x Dark Confidant
3x Serra Avenger
3x Jotun Grunt

Other Spells:
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x Serum Visions
3x Thoughtseize
3x Stifle
4x Brainstorm
2x Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard:
2x Threads of Disloyalty
4x Leyline of the Void
2x Vindicate
2x Engineered Explosives
2x Pithing Needle
3x Meddling Mage

I haven't looked at the spoilers much to see if there are any other interesting Lorwyn cards to this point.
I'm running 18 lands to supplement the Wasteland strategy, no Shadowmage because he's been strictly awful for me (other than pitching to FoW), Leyline because lately my meta has been all Thresh, Breakfast and Salvager/Gamekeeper, and Visions because i prefer the scrye effect to the shuffle of ponder/portent for burying late game lands/dark confidant reveals.
I haven't had the opportunity to test throughly yet, but what little I have done has looked promising.
Ideas and CONSTRUCTIVE criticisms, please!

[Lord_Dralnu]

i'm currently giving this deck a spin, i just can't miss meddling mage(there are some aggro loam decks and mage is just good vs them and breakfast + other combo) in this deck so i put it main board again it just feels better.

Proposed U/W/b Fish

Lands (17)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Creatures (16)
4 Spectral Lynx
3 Jotun Grunt
3 meddling mage
2 Serra Avenger
4 Dark Confidant


Spells (27)
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum visions
3 Stifle
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Duress/Thoughtseize
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard (15)
3 Engineered plague
1 Duress/Thoughtseize
3 Extirpate
2 Vindicate
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Pithing Needle
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte

[Lemuria]

Here is why I think MOR is better then Lynx:

MOR can do what Lynx do, but she can do better. She can protect herself (not only against green), can protect your other dudes, allows your equiped guys to go unblocked and more important, doesn't need mana to activate the ability, leaving you with open mana to cast cantrips, stifle or a duress/thoughtseize.

That's just my opinion though, I' might be wrong.

Also, now with the inclusion of duress/thoughtseize, Meddling Mage will be that broken. But I'm heaving difficulties to find a place back for duress/thoughtseize.

Here is my list:

17 lands

4 flooded strand
4 polluted delta
3 tundra
2 underground sea
1 scrubland
1 plains/swamp/island

18 Creatures

4 Dark Confidant
4 Meddling Mage
3 MOR
3 Jottun Grunt
2 Serra Avenger
2 Shadowmage Infiltrator

23 othr spells

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions (will become Ponder)
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

I don't know, but I was think to cut the one SoFI and maybe the 2 Shadowmage and put them in the SB . They are totally awesome and can be a nightmare when equipped, but sometimes it's hard to place a well 3cc spell.

I'm not sure if I get rid of the third jitte thought. It turns my men into insane beasts and with the help of MOR, the game can ends quickly. Maybe I should take one out and replace with a 4th daze, I really liked that Hanni's idea, but still not sure.

Well, that's just my thoughts. I hope soon we all come to an agreement.:wink:

[centurion8]

Here is why I think MOR is better then Lynx:


I don't know, but I was think to cut the one SoFI and maybe the 2 Shadowmage and put them in the SB . They are totally awesome and can be a nightmare when equipped, but sometimes it's hard to place a well 3cc spell.

I'm not sure if I get rid of the third jitte thought. It turns my men into insane beasts and with the help of MOR, the game can ends quickly. Maybe I should take one out and replace with a 4th daze, I really liked that Hanni's idea, but still not sure.

Well, that's just my thoughts. I hope soon we all come to an agreement.:wink:

I'm with you on the cuts of SoFI and Shadowmage. I think either MOR or MM if you want creatures, or Duress/Thoughtseize. I also like the 2x Jitte, 4x Daze setup, but as with everything on here, it comes down to what you like and have success w/ in testing.
I've been running games on MWS all afternoon w/ the list I posted earlier, and thus far have been wishing I had MOR over Lynx. I will note that not i've not played breakfast or thresh once too... the testing continues...

[Joon]

My list contains all, MoR, Mage and Lynx. And it performs well.

3 Tundra
2 U-Sea
1 Scrubland
4 Delta
4 Strand
3 Basics of each Colour one, or 1 Plains 2 Island, has to be tested

4 Confidant
4 Mother
3 Grunt
3 Lynx
3 M. Mage
2 Avenger

4 FoW
4 Daze
4 StoP
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Thoughtseize
2 Jitte

61 cards

One card left to cut, don't know actually which it will be. Thoughtseize in combination with Mage is so awesome that I saw more "player Lost" than ever on MWS :laugh:
The Sidebaord will look like something like

1 Mage
1 Thoughtseize
1 Jitte
3 Vindicate
4 Plague/Explosives
4 Stifle
1 random

What do you think? I'd like to play 1 card less but I won't cut Daze, especially with Ponder it's just awesome. You can counter Turn 1 so often! maybe I could cut 1 Mother but she's such an powerhouse in the middle/lategame (actually she's an powerhouse when isn't affected by summoning Sickness anymore).

[Hanni]

I'm getting sick of the numberous Serra avengers i've been drawing lately before turn 4 where i wished that 3rd serra avenger was something else and where i even wished that 2nd serra avenger was something else.


Even when you have Serra Avengers in your hand before turn 4, has that really a problem for you? Usually I have other spells to play during that time period. When I used to run only 2, I only saw them once in a while. I honestly consider them to be the strongest aggro piece in the deck. I want to see them more often than as a 2-of, even if running 3 makes me see them before turn 4 more often.


I think an optimal list should still run a package of 4 meddling mage, this card is still very handy and will give you wins when you aim it right, due to the maindecking of duress/thoughtseize mage will be better again.


While Duress + Mage is always devastating, Meddling Mage itself has been underwhelming for me for a while. Thoughtseize + Portent might make Meddling Mage worthwhile, though, giving me consistent ways to shut down cards. The only problem with doing that, though, is that I'd need to run Mother of Runes again, meaning I'd have to drop Spectral Lynx. I'm not really sure the deck needs the strength of Mage vs combo and I'm not sure that the Mage plan would be better than Lynx vs Thresh and the rest of the format. Control seems to be the only deck where Mage would obviously be better. I suppose it's worth testing. If you'd like to design a Mage build equipped to handle the meta, that would be cool. I don't really have the time to do extensive testing on decks anymore :( Most of the work I do is from a few hours of theorizing and a couple games of playtesting.


I'm with you on the cuts of SoFI and Shadowmage.

I'm not running SoFI anymore. That was in the build I originally posted and I quickly changed my mind.


Here is why I think MOR is better then Lynx:

MOR can do what Lynx do, but she can do better. She can protect herself (not only against green), can protect your other dudes, allows your equiped guys to go unblocked and more important, doesn't need mana to activate the ability, leaving you with open mana to cast cantrips, stifle or a duress/thoughtseize.


There are pros and cons to both. I like Mother of Runes alot. My main reason for dropping her was mainly due to the fact that I needed space for other things. The biggest cons to Mom are that she is pretty garbage on her own. Meaning, she is simply a support card (like Jitte is) for the rest of the creature base. Without Meddling Mage, the deck doesn't really need that extra support as badly, IMO. Not only that, she cannot use her ability when she comes into play and a single Pithing Needle shuts all of 3-4 of her down. A vanilla 1/1 is retarded. The Lynx isn't meant to replace Mother of Runes... it's meant to replace Meddling Mage. The fact that it can regenerate itself and has pro green just decreases the need for Mother of Runes. As far as equipped guys going unblocked... this is hardly an issue. I have 4 Pro Green Regenerate guys, 3 Flyers, and 2 guys with Fear. If I were to fit Mages back in, Mother of Runes would obviously come back in. I'm just not convinced that the Mom + Mage package is what the metagame is asking for right now. I'm sure that the Mom + Mage package will still hold its own in the metagame though, so I have not dismissed it. I was simply presenting a new version of Fish that I felt would do well in the current metagame.

HOWEVER:

3 Mother of Runes
4 Meddling Mage

4 Portent
4 Thoughtseize

I can see how that would be a pretty devastating package. Both Portent and Thoughtseize are going to give you targets to name with Mage. Now, instead of naming off a spell that you may not even see, you can name off the best spell that they have available at the time. The virtual card advantage that would create would be pretty huge. I'm just concerned that, against a deck like Threshold, that they will manage to get a Goyf in play, drop a Needle on Mom, and beat me down before I can stabilize. With the Lynx, I just feel more secure about not losing to Threshold before stabilizing. Here's a list going the Mage route, though (pretty much the same as my lists of old):

U/W/b Classic Fish

Lands (17)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Creatures (17)
3 Mother of Runes
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Serra Avenger
4 Meddling Mage
4 Dark Confidant
1 Shadowmage Infiltrator

Spells (26)
4 Brainstorm
4 Portent
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard (15)
4 Stifle
2 Threads of Disloyalty
3 Extirpate
2 Vindicate
2 Engineered Exlosives
2 Pithing Needle

Since the deck is focusing on abusing Mage with Thoughtseize/Portent, I cut a Stifle for a Thoughtseize. Like I've said before, Mage was lacking for me alot lately. I want to make Mage as effecient as possible if I'm gonna run him instead of Lynx. Since Stifle is relatively bad against Threshold, since Goblins (at least for the moment) isn't very popular, and since they shouldn't be needed (at least MD) vs combo, I cut the Stifles down to 2. They are still solid for targetting Grunt's or pitching to FoW so they're never gonna be dead, but relying on them to stop the opponent's spells/fetches (at least MD) is gonna be much less reliable.

Everything else is pretty standard from my original Fish lists. Since the deck is attempting to abuse card advantage through Mage, I cut the Shadowmages. I didn't really have any room. 2 Stifles could be cut for 2 Shadowmages, with 4 Stifles in the SB. That's something that could use testing.

EDITED THE ABOVE DECK W/ THE FOLLOWING CHANGES:

-2 Stifle
+1 Umezawa's Jitte
+1 Shadowmage Infiltrator

See my post below for the reasons why.

EDIT 2: I added a sideboard.

[lukatron2]

Here is why I think MOR is better then Lynx:

MOR can do what Lynx do, but she can do better. She can protect herself (not only against green), can protect your other dudes, allows your equiped guys to go unblocked and more important, doesn't need mana to activate the ability, leaving you with open mana to cast cantrips, stifle or a duress/thoughtseize.

That's just my opinion though, I' might be wrong.

Also, now with the inclusion of duress/thoughtseize, Meddling Mage will be that broken. But I'm heaving difficulties to find a place back for duress/thoughtseize.


I think I agree with a lot of this...

I'm no expert on this deck or anything, but I am pretty familiar with it (I just never post in this thread). A couple of things I was thinking...

Mother of Ruins seems like it can give the deck a lot of power with or without meddling mage. Like he said, it can protect other creatures as well. It just seems to good to cut.

I think that SoFi seems really good in the current meta with Tarmogoyf and whatnot. It gives the deck a little more power and I think it can be put in the deck INSTEAD of finkle.

Thoughtseize is SUPER good. ESPECIALLY with meddling mage. It gives you more outs against goyf and improves your combo match up. Wow, with Thoughseize,Confidant, and fetches, this is starting to look like suicide fish lol...

I think that its really hard to have a definate creature base because there are so many variations. I know that spectral lynx is a really good creature (especially in the format right now) but MoR adds so much to the deck...

I think that a creature base like this seems good.

4 Dark Confidant
3 Jotun Grunt
4 Mother of Ruins
3-4 Meddling mage
1-2 serra avenger

SoFi and Thoughtseize can add a lot to this deck in the thresh match-up in my opinion.

[Hanni]

As an edit to the decklist I posted above...

-2 Stifle
+1 Shadowmage Infiltrator
+1 Umezawa's Jitte

With the huge life loss from Confidant's, fetches, and Thoughtseizes... this deck is gonna need 3 Jittes I think. 2 Stifles seemed like the most questionable slots. Since so much of the meta is running Goyf, I don't think Stifle will be as necessary MD to hit my Grunts. I can just SB 3-4 Stifles. The 4 MD Thoughtseizes replace the Stifles very well as disruption and, as I've said before, I find Stifles to be severly lacking vs Thresh. Goblins isn't that big of an issue anymore, which was one of the main reasons reason I ran Stifles in the first place. Wastelands don't seem as popular at the moment, and were never really too problematic in the first place when not combined with additional LD elements, so I shouldn't really need MD Stifles me thinks. Not only that, Thoughtseize is actually effective vs Goblins where Duress wasn't.

The 1-of Shadowmage gives me Confidant #5. I'm willing to settle on 1 less Shadowmage than what I was running before.

In all honesty, I think the above decklist with Mage in it looks really brutal. I'm still not sure if it's better than the Lynx version vs the current meta... but it definitely looks strong.

[Lemuria]

Since so much of the meta is running Goyf, I don't think Stifle will be as necessary MD to hit my Grunts. I can just SB 3-4 Stifles. The 4 MD Thoughtseizes replace the Stifles very well as disruption and, as I've said before, I find Stifles to be severly lacking vs Thresh. Goblins isn't that big of an issue anymore, which was one of the main reasons reason I ran Stifles in the first place. Wastelands don't seem as popular at the moment, and were never really too problematic in the first place when not combined with additional LD elements, so I shouldn't really need MD Stifles me thinks. Not only that, Thoughtseize is actually effective vs Goblins where Duress wasn't.




As much as I love Stifle, I have to agree with that. Totally.

Like you said, I think your list now is extremly brutal, I liked a lot. I would like to run maybe 4 copies of daze and 2 shadowmage, I think, but that list just looks really cool. Maybe some playtests now will tell us what to do, but I think we are on the right direction.

[Lord_Dralnu]

I have to give it to you guys, I really wanted to make this deck discussion hot again and dear lord i'm very pleased with the result lol.

Ppl have been working there asses off lately and putting a lot of work into this deck!

I think the time has come to say that we tested the Lynx path and denied it due to a lack of power(can i say that?) where mage + mom shine.
A lot of decks in the format play tarmogoyf but lynx is a pussy agains't every other deck that DOESN'T play goyf where you wished you could name that card with meddling mage you picked with that darn good thoughtseize.

Overall i think Meddling mage > spectral lynx Though it being good tech i think everyone has agreed that the mage will win you more games and it is the way to go.

I also agree on taking out the stifles, we now gain a tremendous amount of removal with Thoughtseize(thank you lorwyn creators!) and for this we don't need stifle anymore.
Though whenever i take something blue out of the deck i always count the amount of blue sources left to pitch to fow.
We now have an amount of 20 blue sources in the deck(including 4 fows where we used to have 23) and you all have to agree that you really didn't mind pitching that useless stifle to your FOW and now were sometimes gonna have to pitch something to FOW we rather don't wanna pitch but hey that's life i guess....

I think this deck has been wel tought out lately, we have been testing a lot of different configurations and i have each time tested the changes and i found myself to like the deck less and less with each change, i felt like it lost such a great deal of power.

I'm very happy with the small change, cuz that's all this fish deck really needed(4x thoughtseize and an extra jitte and removing the stifles).
I feel like this deck has returned to it's roots and is now at full strenght again.

So to avoid confusion i'm posting the decklist again on how we almost all agree fish should be played after Lorwyn comes out.

U/W/b Classic Fish

Lands (17)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Creatures (17)
3 Mother of Runes
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Serra Avenger
4 Meddling Mage
4 Dark Confidant
1 Shadowmage Infiltrator

Spells (26)
4 Brainstorm
4 Portent
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard (15)
4 Stifle
2 Threads of Disloyalty
3 Extirpate
2 Vindicate
2 Engineered Exlosives
2 Pithing Needle

Which leaves me with only 1 nut to crack Is Ponder better then Portent, i really have no clue yet...!

Let yourselves be heard !


I would also like to thank every single one of you who have put such an amount of work into this deck lately, props to yourselves!

[Lemuria]

Well, so far I'm doing fine, but I miss some extra power. I think Hanni is right about that, wich leads me to include one more creature, I just don't know which one will be: Serra Avenger or Shadowmage.

I'm running exactly the same list as yours, as Hanni suggested, and I reaaally liked. So, again, I'm in doubt what to cut for the extra punch.

As for Ponder vs Portent, well, depends on what strategy you're doing. For this deck specifically, I think portent fits better, cause you can abuse meddling mage. You use thoughtseize to look at opponents hand, portent to look at his library, then you use Meddling Mage to name important shits.

For Lynx list and other decks, Ponder is better.

[Shriekmaw]

I would like to begin a discussion on the 4 additional card draw effects in the deck besides brainstorm. In the most current builds these slots have usually been taken us as either Portent or Serum Visions.

I'm not sure if I would rather use these spots as additional card draw or use them as more utility slots. Some of these could be additional Duress, Thoughtseize, Spell Snare, Engineered Explosives, Vedalken Shackles, or Pithing Needle.

I can understand you don't necessary want to lose blue cards since you need them to support Force of Will, but I would like a little discussion on maybe if there is a better card than simply a card drawing effect that we can replace.

Let me know of your thoughts guys.

Thanks

[centurion8]

I've never played the deck w/o Serum Visions/Portent etc., but am pretty sure that losing the cantrip and draw setup would kill the deck's consistency and ability to hit its colors in the early turns. 1 land + Visions + a couple business cards is generally a keeper for me.

[Shriekmaw]

I've never played the deck w/o Serum Visions/Portent etc., but am pretty sure that losing the cantrip and draw setup would kill the deck's consistency and ability to hit its colors in the early turns. 1 land + Visions + a couple business cards is generally a keeper for me.


The reason I brought up this discussion is that Paul Cheon's Bigger Fish deck was fairly successful in Columbus by only using Brainstorm as his only cantrip spell. I do agree it does add consistency to the deck, but I would like to know if the extra cantrips are totally necessary or just good to have.

We can add consistency to the deck by adding 1 land and play with 2-3 chrome moxs. Just a thought.

[Hanni]

The reason I brought up this discussion is that Paul Cheon's Bigger Fish deck was fairly successful in Columbus by only using Brainstorm as his only cantrip spell. I do agree it does add consistency to the deck, but I would like to know if the extra cantrips are totally necessary or just good to have.

We can add consistency to the deck by adding 1 land and play with 2-3 chrome moxs. Just a thought.

Adding an extra land and Chrome Moxes adds manabase consistency which is not the same thing as overall consistency. With Mox, yea, the deck gets a slight early game tempo boost. That's usually what FoW and Daze are for though... FoW itself is already CA disadvantage for tempo boost. I'm not really sure that Fish needs anymore early game tempo boosts. At least FoW is valuable throughout the whole game.

The thing about cantrips is... they aren't just manabase consistency for the early game. Late game, they help get rid of excess lands, where those extra Moxes and a land would be completely awful. The 8 cantrips do not reduce enough early tempo to consider cutting... and the only reason this deck isn't running more than 8 cantrips is because it has an additional draw engine in Dark Confidant. The greatest strength of blue-based aggro/control, IMO, is the consistency it has due to the draw engines.

[Shriekmaw]

I do appreciate your respond and for the record I do agree with the 8 cantrips right now in the deck. I was just trying to spark some innovation to improve some of the matchups in the current metagame.

The one thing I would like to see is a more updated matchup breakdown against the other popular to tier 1 decks and maybe some results that this deck has posted in recent tournaments. I haven't seen this deck play in quite some time, since GP Columbus and I attend quite a bit of bigger Legacy tournaments.

How good is this deck now since the combo decks are dying down in popularity?

[Lemuria]

I was just thinking:


Is aether vial a good inclusion or not? I like the idea of having uncountered mages and bobs, but I haven't tested yet and I have no idea of what to cut.

[Lord_Dralnu]

Over the weekend i managed to get my 4 ponders and i'm now playtesting them over serum visions/portent and i have to say they look very promising and could stay in this deck.

Also i do not think this deck needs aether vial, it would simply take up slots needed for other spells, aether vial was previously discussed and tested and found not to be needed at all.

[Lord_Dralnu]

okay so i'm probably gonna take my deck for a spin at a legacy tournament this saturday.

Since this is like the only legacy deck i have completed i can only play this deck, but i love this deck so no worries I guess.

I do have some questions.

Since i have no Thoughtseize's yet it probably wouldn't be good to replace them with maindeck duresses since they are less effective?

Would it be a wise thing to do to move in 3 stifles and like 2 other cards?(1 from the duress and 1 free mainboard slot cuz i cut the lone shadowmage infiltrator which isn't effective vs landstill and i expect some landstill and combo decks and aggro loam decks)

I'm playing this deck.


Lands (17)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Creatures (17)
3 Mother of Runes
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Serra Avenger
4 Meddling Mage
4 Dark Confidant

Spells (26)
4 Brainstorm
4 PONDER
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 FREE SLOTS, PLS HELP ME FILL THEM IN!!! People really hate Extirpates so i'm thinking of playing 2 but if i do i'd better play 3 right which leaves me with 3 more SB cards to fill in???

I also need help finding a better sideboard

Sideboard (10)
3 Extirpate
2 Vindicate
2 Pithing Needle
3 engineered plague
Can you guys help me out filling out the last 5 slots?
I feel like i don't need to be playing the 4 duresses SB if i'm gonna be playing thoughtseizes main right, or should i put them(the duresses) in my SB for now?

I hope to get some nice answers from you all.

tnx for the help

[Lemuria]

I would cut one jitte and run 3 main deck duress. This config has been absolutely great for me, except that I run Portent over Ponder, cuz I like to screw my opponents topdeck, also, portent and duress have nice synergy with Meddling Mage, but that´s just my playstyle. If you like a better cantrip to dig your own library, then sure run Ponder.

[Lord_Dralnu]

I would cut one jitte and run 3 main deck duress. This config has been absolutely great for me, except that I run Portent over Ponder, cuz I like to screw my opponents topdeck, also, portent and duress have nice synergy with Meddling Mage, but that´s just my playstyle. If you like a better cantrip to dig your own library, then sure run Ponder.


I can't decide but i'm actually playing ponder cuz 1) they draw emmediatly and 2) i don't have any portents.

I realize i can control my opponents draw and topdecks with portent but tell me, how many times do you portent an opponent?

I guess i could cut a jitte and add 3 duresses which should really be thoughtseizes.
Lands (17)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Creatures (17)
3 Mother of Runes
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Serra Avenger
4 Meddling Mage
4 Dark Confidant

Spells (26)
4 Brainstorm
4 PONDER
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 duress

What about my sideboard then?
Sideboard (10)
3 Extirpate
2 Vindicate
2 Pithing Needle
3 engineered plague
still needs 5 slots, something metagame-ish would be nice.

[Lemuria]

I realize i can control my opponents draw and topdecks with portent but tell me, how many times do you portent an opponent?

Well, actually, much more than I do to myself :wink:


If you can afford Thoughtseize, then you sure must run over Duress, otherwise, Duress is just fine, you won't regret.


Your sideboard seems fine, but the remaining slots is a metagame call. Maybe Leylines, Crypt, Serenity if you have lots of Stax or Affinities decks, idk. If you think Shadowmage is doing fine for you, then you can SB him as well.

[centurion8]

So, am I missing something, or does Lorwyn not become legal until Oct. 20th for constructed play?

The reason I ask Chedder, is that people are talking about playing this weekend, etc, using Lorwyn cards and just wanted to bring up that they may want to consider not showing up w/ a deck that isn't tourney legal.

[cheddercaveman]

Lorwyn is not legal until Oct 20 for constructed play correct. Not sure why your asking though?

Thoughtseize needs to prove its worth before its getting my endorsement. It has to prove its worth the 2 life over duress before I'm going to be giving my thumbs up.

Ponder vs Portent. Here's the deal. People have argued either way. Ponder can't target an opponent, but it can draw you a card right away. Portent does not draw you a card until the upkeep, but you could target the opponent. Ponder > Portent in my opinion. First, 90% of the time portent is targetting you so that you can fix your draw, and then yes, if your drawing a counter of some kind, drawing on your turn vs next upkeep is largely irrelevant. HOWEVER, ponder gets me a card right now. What if i need a creature or a land. I want those now. Sorceries too. I want those now. Seems to me that its better to play ponder to help me, than run portent for the chance to hurt the opponent. Just my 2-cents.

[Lemuria]

Ponder vs Portent is just a matter of taste. I personally like to screw my opponent's topdeck, plus naming cards he or she would eventually draw with my Meddling Mage. If I feel that I need better cantrips to dig my own library, no doubt I'll switch Ponder. But I think Brainstorm and Bob just do the card advantage job very well for me. (I'm not saying I don't Portent myself. I do when I need).
As we can see, depends on the strategy you want. Me, I want to abuse Meddling Mage most of the times. You do what you think that fits better your playstyle.


As for Duress vs Thoughtseize, I don't think we should start a debate on wich one is better, since Thoughtseize clearly >>> Duress.

It doesn't suck against tendrils combo, because Fish already has a huge match against combo (we already have MM, Force, Daze and Stifle).

It doesn't suck against Goblins, because now we can target everything in their hands (except lands, duuh).

Duress was already good against Thresh, and now we can take a Goyf or a Moongose right out off their hands. Isn't amazing?

The only match I would consider not run thoughtseize is against Burn, and even then I'm not sure that Thoughtseize sucks against then, since we have counters and jitte.

But again, my 2 cents too...

[Lord_Dralnu]

So, am I missing something, or does Lorwyn not become legal until Oct. 20th for constructed play?

The reason I ask Chedder, is that people are talking about playing this weekend, etc, using Lorwyn cards and just wanted to bring up that they may want to consider not showing up w/ a deck that isn't tourney legal.

You are absolutly right haha, I completely forgot about that :cry: i guess it's not that bad since i don't have any thoughtseizes yet lol :tongue:

I'll just play serum visions over ponder again and fill up the open 5 sideboard slots with metagame stuff.

jeeez, tnx for reminding me haha. I would be embarrased for being too enthousiastic about Lorwyn and playing it already lol!

tnx guys hehe

[raharu]

Could boarding the Stifles and adding more MD disruption/ Hardcounters a viable option?

[asdljas]

My partner plays this deck, and truthfully, the best card to put in those two slots is Sera Avenger. You want to see that card every time. He also dropped the 3 Duress for 3 Aether Vials. They free up mana during your opponent's turn, and allow your creatures to be uncounterable (for the Threshold matchup). Vialing in Jotun Grunt to block and counterswing is also a dirty trick.

[raharu]

Where is the Dimir Infiltrator love? It loves SoFI.

[Nihil Credo]

Dimir Infiltrator sucks bollocks on its own, even if you count Transmute. For one more mana, Shadowmage Infiltrator is good without the help of other cards.

[raharu]

I thought Fish ate a hole in Combo? What's up with the drop from the Metagame forum? About Dimir Infiltrator, the main reason that it's good is the Transmute ability. Fetching Serra Avenger, Sofi, Jitte, pretty much all of your threats (Confidant, Grunt, whatever), and to say that it's useless by itself is an arguement that could be used against pretty much any creature in the deck that isn't named Serra Avenger (which is the reason you have to run a butload of equipment, but there's nothing wrong with that). Every other creature in the deck is either a control creature (Confidant, Mage) or Grunt, which makes me cry. It's good against thresh, but bad against Goblins and other permanent based decks, and the fact that you could fetch Avenger (so you could actually cut it to two without nutering your agro side) and still have something that's great with your equipment is a feaseable idea. On another note, could you cut your cantrips for Lim-Dul's Vault? the Extra rooom could be used for more creatures (would that be the Infiltrator slot? :)) or you could cut some other cards for a counterbalance build of Fish (has anyone played with that?) which yould really help protect your creatures since your curve is mostly at 1-2, which is where the most prevalent removal is.

Just a few thoughts.

P.S. Could Confidant be removed for Phyrexian Arena? I only bring it up because Tombstalker is so sick and whatnot. The Double white for Avenger and the Double (color) in your other things are probably prohibative, which might explain why Shadowmage Infiltrator isn't Hypnotic Specter and why Stifle is not Counterspell, but whatever. Again, just a few thoughts.

[Joe_C]

Where is the Dimir Infiltrator love? It loves SoFI.

Dimir infiltrator cannot transmute into SoFI.

I have been playing with a very aggresive version of fish running trickbind/stifle phyrexian dreadnought. After some more testing I will post results. It looks very promising....

[cheddercaveman]

Personally right now I don't think the 3 color deck makes sense. I think that what your looking for might be better achieved by playing either a UW or UB fish deck. The 3 color deck is amazing at taking out combo, but subpar at hitting aggro, I think dedicating to one color or the other allows you to free up more slots that can be used on hate. That being said, I think that the Phyrexian Dreadnaught is exactly what a deck like this needs because stifle is good people anyways, if your worried wait a turn and trickbind (no counter) and you've got a 12/12 trample, which is gonna be a whole lot deadlier than 'goyf.

Sidenote: IMO transmute cards are not good in a deck like this

[edgewalker]

The problem with dreadnought is that because of goyf, he's now hit by every removal played, since people only play removal that kill a 3/4 or greater. Beaters is not what this deck needs, you can easily beat with a 3/3 flier or a 2/1 and win, it just takes longer, what this deck needs and always has is an effective answer to aggro decks which are out there in the form of Thresh variants, goyf sligh, and goblins(people do still play this despite the myths)

[raharu]

Honestly, the only reason I can see to use a cantrip engine over Lim-Dul's Vault is to support Grunt, which (though when I say it out loud it sounds stupid) is really a thresh hating Loxodon Peacekeeper. Grunt in board would be nice, but all it really does is serves a a big body to stabilize the board, which Loxodon Peacekeeper does just fine. When you're about to "lose" it, remove it with Swords to plowshares since it has obviously fulfilled its purpose and create an even bigger gap between your life total and thiers (Note: Sword in response to the triggered effect).

[Nihil Credo]

Honestly, the only reason I can see to use a cantrip engine over Lim-Dul's Vault is to support Grunt
...and card parity. UWB Fish is neither a combo nor a toolbox deck, so it's questionable whether you'd want a card disadvantage tutor. I think Extended-2 "Dump Truck" lists didn't run Vampiric Tutor.

[raharu]

-1 CA to fix alll of your draws for the next infinity turns and the ability to get rid of trash much better than any cantrips currently available? The option to dig deep to grab and grab the few answers you guys have is bad too, I guess. Keep in mind that this is all for no mana and the life payment is completely optional.

[Nihil Credo]

-1 CA to fix alll of your draws for the next infinity turns

You mean (at best) five turns, right?


and the ability to get rid of trash just like any cantrips currently available?

Fixed for you.


The option to dig deep to grab and grab the few answers you guys have is bad too, I guess.

It is bad. UWB Fish is a redundant deck, not a toolbox deck. If you want a toolbox plan, Trinket Mage is the card you want.

And while we're talking about Trinket, Sensei's Divining Top is a much better draw-fixer than LDV here (you're not interested in winning on turn 3, unlike Cephalid Breakfast or Flash). And with a fetchland/Trinket Mage/Ponder/Portent, it even trades back for a card. And it doesn't cost life.


Keep in mind that this is all for no mana

UB is often a turn's worth of mana.


and the life payment is completely optional.

Sure. If you want an overpriced Index.

[lebarion]

I'm reading this thread for a while and I'm thinking about building this deck, as it seems to be a good choice for my metagame (lots of Thresh, some combos).

However, I've seen thresh players here using counterbalance-top maindeck, and this seems to be a big problem for this deck. Is there a way to play around counter-top? What should I side in against thresh, if I'm using the traditional (Meddling Mage + Mother of Runes) list?

[Nihil Credo]

I'm reading this thread for a while and I'm thinking about building this deck, as it seems to be a good choice for my metagame (lots of Thresh, some combos).
In that metagame, Landstill seems the better choice.

[lebarion]

In that metagame, Landstill seems the better choice.

This is probably true, but I already have some of the cards for Fish. For landstill, I'd have to buy everything except StPs, Brainstorms and FoWs...

Also, I prefer to play something more agressive than Landstill.

[Lemuria]

I don't think will be viable here because we have many aggro decks, aggro/control....and I've seen some 43 lands and Thresh, and just a few few storm combo decks. That's not a good meta for Fish.

Expect me coming with Ichorid, since I think it's properly for a meta like this.

[lebarion]

I don't think will be viable here because we have many aggro decks, aggro/control....and I've seen some 43 lands and Thresh, and just a few few storm combo decks. That's not a good meta for Fish.

Expect me coming with Ichorid, since I think it's properly for a meta like this.

I've saw 43 lands here only once, and a long time ago. I like fish because of its versatility, and I think it can stop random aggro decks (even Goblins is not impossible).

Anyway, I don't want to start a discussion about local metagame. Does someone have a tip for playing versus counter-top engine?

[nitewolf9]

Does someone have a tip for playing versus counter-top engine?

Play it yourself. Or pack something like vindicate. Seriously, counterbalance is so damn good I don't see why a deck like this that can clearly support it wouldn't play it.

[Syco_Tr0pic]

@ Lemuria: Done that. Now I'm more tired and less poor. Yay.

@ playing against countertop engine: Like many in this thread I see no reason why a deck such as Fish will refuse to play SDT/CB of Alexandria. Manawise, the Fish shell supports the engine perfectly. The converted costs in the deck are also perfectly fit for the countertop engine, ranging from 0-3 with good distribution.
I'm testing a fish-esque build (something like UBg Trinket Goyf, but almost taking Trinket mage out) with SDT/CB in mind, but I run green for Guess Who-Goyf and SB Krosan Grip in case people try to run the godamn mofo combination against me.
Whatever the card you're gonna use against SDT/CB, it has to cost 3 or more. The liability of running hate that is in the cost range of the deck makes the risk too high to take, I guess. Also, if the card has split second or another kind of uncounterability (is that a word?) it helps. Krosan Grip is great in this aspect. I never tested Wipe Away, though. It may be useful, paired with Duress/Thoughtseize/Counters.

[raharu]

Propaganda/ Ghostly Prison against agro??

[The Marco]

Propaganda/ Ghostly Prison against agro??

I think that Jitte, STP, Vindicate, EE plus the counters are enough. If you have no goblins in you meta maybee Propaganda (it's blue...FOW anyone) could replace Engineered Plague, that could be a decent idea.

[raharu]

It's what I run for random agro due to the fact that E Plague is a dead card in that MU and I run a much different build of "Fish" than these here.

[The Marco]

Would you mind sharing it

[raharu]

Different Fish

Cantrips: 12
Ponder x4
Brainstorm x4
Serum Visions x4

Removal: 6
Swords to Plowshares x4
Vindncate x2

Disruption: 15
Daze x3
Thought Seize/Duress x4
Extirpate x4
Force of Will x4

Creatures: 10
Mother of Runes x3
Jotun Grunt x2
Serra Avenger x3
Tombstalker x2


Like I said, not really fish. This is the "Fish-esque". My alternate list looks like this:

-12 cantrips
+4 Lim-Dul's Vault
+4 Counterbalance
+3 Sensei's Diving Top
+1 Vindicate
-2 Jotun Grunt (going in board)
+2 Loxodon Peacekeeper

Yep. No Meddling Mage. that + Fetchlands + FoW + all the other pricey things in the deck prohibit it, which is dandy because I can't find room in the list. Less Equipment, no Bob, no Finkel. I don't like Bob, and Finkel is not a threat. I've thought about playing AK for some reason, but decided I would run Finkel first.

[soundwave123]

I've been playing with this list as of late due to the fact I finally got my meddling mages! The one thing I want to bring up and ask is does anyone feel the same about extirpate being so good right now (at least in my testing in my meta) to be mainboard along with stifles? I find the whole stifle the fetch then extirpate to be extremely devistating against alot of decks. Stifle alone on fetchlands has been like a 1 blue timewalk for me in legacy.

On top of all that it has very good synnergy with meddling mage due to the fact you get to look at everything.

Also I think smother deserves main deck over swords to plowshares at this point with Tarmogoyf running around because giving a player +5 or +6 life can sometimes give them enough life to find answers/threats again.

Let me know what you guys think since I am new to the deck.:tongue:

[raharu]

I'm in the small minority that likes the Mainboard Extirpate, but not for the reasons everyone else likes them. Yes, you can nix the Goyf problem, but if you want to try Counterbalance, Extirpate is just nuts. Meddling Mage on anything relevant that you know they play, and then if anything pops up that you didn't expect that is too big for Counterbalance to handle, just use a saved Force of Will and nail it with Extirpate. Extirpate is pretty good on its own, but if your meta is agro heavy I could not advise it.

[soundwave123]

Just wanted to say that I placed 2nd in a very small non sanctioned tournament today. I went up against Cephalid Breakfast, G/W Aggro, and extended version of counter-balance Tog. The only match I lost to was Tog due to counterbalance. I feel this deck is great against almost every matchup including aggro but the second a counterbalance gets on board if the deck is built around 1/2 casting cost... its over.

Anyone have any suggestions for counterbalance? I was debating just throwing it in myself using the whole "If you can't beat it, join it theory."

Please help

[cheddercaveman]

On counterbalance, you have 2 problems.

1) How to beat it. You'll want to have a way to play around it. I'd say that you try to do things like get a Meddling Mage in play naming one of the 2 pieces, counter, duress/thoughtseize, etc. If that doesnt work, boarding in Pithing Needle, Disenchant, Seal of Cleansing might help. Also, try something like Wispmare (i think thats the right name) from Lorwyn, it might do the trick similiar to how Ignot Chewer worked in vintage recently.

2) Joining. I personally don't feel that a 3-color version of fish is the optimal solution for countertop. I think you go with either a U/W or U/B build then. Adding in Trinketmages to fill the slot of the creature your removing.

[Lemuria]

Wipe Away is another good answer, similar to krosan grip. You may want to discard it via thoughtseize or hold on a counter for it later, though.


2) Joining. I personally don't feel that a 3-color version of fish is the optimal solution for countertop. I think you go with either a U/W or U/B build then. Adding in Trinketmages to fill the slot of the creature your removing.

Not necessarily. There's already a Fish CounterTop Solution developed by JACO in the New and Developmental Forum that can easily support 3 collor mana base. While similar, that deck plays in a different style, more control and less aggro, though more efficient in my playtests.

[soundwave123]

I think Aura Of Silence is a good option which I'll test. I've noticed that Extended Tog uses alot of artifacts along with Counterbalance. The only 3 mana cost cards are Tog X3 and trinket Mage X3 and of course hard counters so the 3 mana cost slot seems right if it comes down after counterbalance is out.

[raharu]

I've always thought that this deck was screaming out for Counterbalance, but I thought that it was not discused for some unspoken reason. Meddling Mage, Force of Will, Daze and Extirpate strengthen Counter-Top, which could very easily be the main focus of the deck, almost to the point that you can establish control and slow-play for the win very easily. Jotun Grunt could be dropped for Mother of Runes, which would protect our important creatures (Lynx to a higher degree, Mage, Confidant, Avenger) so that they become very important threats. Thoughts?

Also, why no two-of Tombstalker?

[soundwave123]

Also, why no two-of Tombstalker?

Tombstalker is murder if you flip with bob... thats why I don't run him. He is an absolute house though against the almighty tarmogoyf shrinking him to a non-threatening size.

[raharu]

Yes, 8 off your life total can make your butt sore for a while, but SDT + Braisntorm + Ponder/SV/ Portent/ whatever should be enough of a rape-shield to prevent that from happening. Or your could use the buddy system...

[raharu]

I think that this deck need to go in a vastly different direction. Fish, although is it a metagame deck, needs to adapt to put up better all-around results and needs to focus on either control of argo. At the moment, Fish tries to do both, often failing to one, the other, or both well. Meddling Mage is starting to look fairly lackluster and Serra Avenger, the strongest piece of agro in the deck (I do believe those letters came from Hanni's fingers), gets owned hardcore by Lightning Bolt. I think the deck should focus more on control but should find a better set of creatures and a secondary win condition (agro or otherwise) should the slow-agro plan go awry. I'm thinking the deck should be running Counterbalance maindeck, and I always have. The fact that it just recently surfaced in relevant conversation startles me, but oh well. Force of Will, Daze, and Thoughtseize all warant inclusion as a four-of, and Ghostly Prision/ Extirpate (depending on the concentration of agro in your metagame, with the other in the SB) should also be a 4-of. I'll leave hashing out the CB/SDT ratios to you (but they pretty much must be in the deck). Mother of Runes should be reintroduced into the deck, and I think that Phyrexian Negator warants a look with 4-of Mother of Runes. Sword of Fire and Ice warants inclusion as aditional insurance from burn aimed at Negator. Shadowmage Infiltrator/ Dark Confidant deserve a place in the deck also. Shadowmage Infiltratormakes me think about Sword of Light and Shadow, so maybe a few of those, I really don't know. Serra Avenger is actually good, 3 toughness and targetability nonwithstanding, so it should get the same 3 slots. Spectral Lynx, although it never should have replaced Mother of Runes, is actually really good and warants a few slots. As for the alternate Wincon, maybe SDTx2 + Helm of Awakening + Tendrils of Agony, but that is rather clunky and I think that a few Dimir Doppelganger, a few Stifles and some Phyrexian Dreadnoughts would do nicely. Here is what I think the deck might look like, although someone will probably make a list better than this:

Phyrexian Negator x3
Serra Avenger x3
Spectral Lynx x3
Mother of Runes x4
Shadowmage infiltrator x4

Thoughtseize x4
Daze x3
Force of will x4
Ghostly Prison/ Extirpate x4
Counterbalance x3
Sensei's Divining Top x3

Sword of Fire and Ice x2
Sword of Light and Shadow x2

42 cards w/o lands. It needs some sort of compact filtration system (Lim-Dul's Vault?) and room for 4 StP. Help the deck out here, please and thank you.

[Arsenal]

I think that this deck need to go in a vastly different direction. Fish, although is it a metagame deck, needs to adapt to put up better all-around results and needs to focus on either control of argo. At the moment, Fish tries to do both, often failing to one, the other, or both well. Meddling Mage is starting to look fairly lackluster and Serra Avenger, the strongest piece of agro in the deck (I do believe those letters came from Hanni's fingers), gets owned hardcore by Lightning Bolt. I think the deck should focus more on control but should find a better set of creatures and a secondary win condition (agro or otherwise) should the slow-agro plan go awry. I'm thinking the deck should be running Counterbalance maindeck, and I always have. The fact that it just recently surfaced in relevant conversation startles me, but oh well. Force of Will, Daze, and Thoughtseize all warant inclusion as a four-of, and Ghostly Prision/ Extirpate (depending on the concentration of agro in your metagame, with the other in the SB) should also be a 4-of. I'll leave hashing out the CB/SDT ratios to you (but they pretty much must be in the deck). Mother of Runes should be reintroduced into the deck, and I think that Phyrexian Negator warants a look with 4-of Mother of Runes. Sword of Fire and Ice warants inclusion as aditional insurance from burn aimed at Negator. Shadowmage Infiltrator/ Dark Confidant deserve a place in the deck also. Shadowmage Infiltratormakes me think about Sword of Light and Shadow, so maybe a few of those, I really don't know. Serra Avenger is actually good, 3 toughness and targetability nonwithstanding, so it should get the same 3 slots. Spectral Lynx, although it never should have replaced Mother of Runes, is actually really good and warants a few slots. As for the alternate Wincon, maybe SDTx2 + Helm of Awakening + Tendrils of Agony, but that is rather clunky and I think that a few Dimir Doppelganger, a few Stifles and some Phyrexian Dreadnoughts would do nicely. Here is what I think the deck might look like, although someone will probably make a list better than this:

Phyrexian Negator x3
Serra Avenger x3
Spectral Lynx x3
Mother of Runes x4
Shadowmage infiltrator x4

Thoughtseize x4
Daze x3
Force of will x4
Ghostly Prison/ Extirpate x4
Counterbalance x3
Sensei's Divining Top x3

Sword of Fire and Ice x2
Sword of Light and Shadow x2

42 cards w/o lands. It needs some sort of compact filtration system (Lim-Dul's Vault?) and room for 4 StP. Help the deck out here, please and thank you.


I don't see how this deck deals with resolved threats in a timely fashion. 4x StP is a fish staple, and with the advent of Goyf', I don't think it should go anywhere. If anything, the standard 3x Stifle (not talking about your list, just UWB builds in general) should be cut for Smother/Thoughtseize, as Storm combo is taking a backseat lately.

[raharu]

All true, but what direction should the deck take? The creatures aren't as strong as threshold's base, so cutting down on the creaturebase and still playing the agro-control role is a terrible idea, yet on the same hand you can't really take a control role and expect to finish with the creatures provided. Is Negator a viable inclusion or should it be removed? With each sword as a 2 of, and Mother of Runes as a four of, could Negator be protected well enough to push through it through for the win without need of Spectral Lynx and Serra Avenger? That would be 6 open slots, which should be more than enough room to work with (4 StP and 2 or more Lim-Dul's Vault }I am aware that it has been shuned, but it's good with shuffle effects and does it's job with less sustained investment and doesn't get boned by Chalice at one{). Thoughts on 'Gator? In general?

[Bardo]

One thing I'm curious about are impression on Moreno's UWB Fish list from Worlds:

Weird-Ass LD Fish
Billy Moreno
Worlds 2007

4 Dark Confidant
4 Meddling Mage
2 Tombstalker

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Island
4 Wasteland
2 Ghost Quarter

Sideboard
3 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Crucible of Worlds
4 Engineered Plague
3 Extirpate
2 Spectral Lynx
1 Umezawa's Jitte

What's really, really novel here is the extreme land destruction theme:

4 Stifle
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate
4 Wasteland
2 Ghost Quarter

Also, Burrenton Forge-Tender (I had to look that up) as anti-Red/Gobs tech: interesting...

I admire Moreno's deckbuilding (MadTog; The Best Flash List Ever), so there has to be something to this. It seems bad against aggro, but pretty respectable against everything else.

[Phantom]

That thing...looks...awful.

10 creatures. 4 Cantrips. No hard counter sans Force (although I suppose Daze becomes harder with the LD). Sinkhole? Ghost Quarter???

It seems like he was going after a good control matchup with all the LD, but the low creature count seems really suspicious to me as he wouldn't be able to take advantage of the temporary tempo boost that his destruction would normally allow him too.

I'm flabbergasted.

[Tacosnape]

Perhaps the idea isn't a tempo boost so much as it is a complete shutdown of the manabase. There's certainly enough land destruction to warrant that being exactly the plan.

How did that deck finish, exactly?

[raharu]

Burton forge-tender is not as good as MoR, and while I don't like the LD in the deck, I love the way the deck looks on paper (MOAR VINDICATE!!!!!!!!! Baisex oui!). Taking out the LD for more control elements and a few Spectral Lynxes would be sick (but more cantrips or Lim-Dul's Vault are manditory, no question). Overall the deck is not truly horrible, but it looks like the precurseur of something slightly different in the future (kinda like how I like to look at flash Zerox lists and see how they show traces of Threshold). On the note of Thresh, I think that this deck should use roughly 10-12 creatures instead of the standard 16. 4 Lynx, 4 Confidant and a finisher seems like the best set-up (Tombstaker??? 'Gator??? Anyone?)

[Arsenal]

If you're going to go that route, Extirpate becomes relevant as you can essentially permanently deny your opponent land drops.

[Phantom]

Perhaps the idea isn't a tempo boost so much as it is a complete shutdown of the manabase. There's certainly enough land destruction to warrant that being exactly the plan.


I thought about this, but this plan really doesn't work unless you run crazy draw or some sort of land sweeper, right? You can't trade 1 for 1 with lands and expect to kill all their lands and win. Just like control decks don't run 16 target removal spells for creatures with no source of card advantage. The math just doesn't add up to me. Plus, doesn't this deck pretty much lose to a resolved Mongoose? LD isn't going to get around that.

[Nihil Credo]

Actually, I like the idea of LD-Fish. My only problem with that list is the lack of a clock; Tombstalker is the only serious clock, the rest is awful.

I would probably fit some Jotun Grunts (or Shades, if the manabase supported it, but I wouldn't count on it), cutting Meddling Mages, in order to have some more decent finishers.

Basically, rather than a Fish port, it's Pikula splashing blue for FoW and Stifle. A very good idea, IMO.

(Forge-Tender, though, doesn't impress me. Crimson Acolyte would dominate the board much better, IMO, with the extra cost not causing any trouble.)

[Illissius]

Heh. I was toying with the Wasteland-Stifle-Sinkhole line of "most efficient LD ever printed" for a while, but never found a build I liked. Maybe Moreno sees something in it I don't. Another card I was looking at is Encroach... you could totally mana screw people with it, but I also see great potential for completely whiffing. Dunno.

[alebronwebb]

here's my build, just built it not long ago and i am really liking it to be honest. what do you guys think.

lands 18
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
1 Plain
1 Swamp
1 Island

creatures 12
3 Phyrexian Negator
4 Mother of Runes
2 Serra Avenger
3 Dark Confidant

other 30
4 Ponder
4 Brain Storm
3 Duress/Thoughtseize
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Diving Top
2 Umezawa's Jitte

SB
3 Extirpate
3 Vindicate
2 Pithing Needle
1 Duress/Thoughtseize
3 Engineered Plague
3 Engineered Explosives

off the top of my head i am thinking Thougtseize is better than Duress, if so, i will probably change 1 MOR to Thoughtseize. And just playing it a little with Negator has proven great, he just slaps Goyf around. And with MoR he's very hard to kill and his drawback hardly is ever relivent.

[Arsenal]

Would Rootwater Thief ever find a home in UWB Fish? Or is his mana investment per turn and weak body just too much to overcome for a situationally disruptive effect?

EDIT: Also, would Waterfront Bouncer have a home in here? Or should it be better off as a spot removal slot?

[alebronwebb]

I am no expert on this deck, but here's my two cents.
Rootwater is cute but as you said it has a small body and a situationally disruptive effect that probably won't help that much. It also has a lot of mana requirement to it, pretty much 2u each turn. To me that just slows the deck down a lot, granted Fish isn't a fast deck but there's no need to make it slower.

Bouncer is cute too, but i think spot removal would be better. Getting rid of the threat and not just delaying seems like a better option, to me atleast.

Ideally creatures in Fish should be good utility creatures, but shouldn't take much mana or resources to make them relevent. I am not trying to blast innovation at all, but really the deck doesn't need to be slowed even more for "subpar" utility creatures imo.

[raharu]

alebronwebb, I'm liking the MoR+'Gator, but why would you want to have less protection for your 'Gators by cutting Mom? I don't see it. If you want more Thoughtseize, I would cut a cantrip. What do you say to cutting the 'Jittes and adding in Sword of Fire and Ice in its place? Protecting Gator from burn and drawing cards is great (Trample damage counts as combat damage to a player). If you put the burn to the dome that would be 9 damage a turn from one very well protected creature. Sword of Light and Shadow warants investigation too, but I don't think the lack of draw is worth it.

[alebronwebb]

Yeah i will probably cut a Ponder for a fourth Thoughtseize. Gator and MoR is just too good every time I play them. I am nervous about cutting the Jittes though, with Confidant and Thoughtseize the life i get from them really help. On the other hand Sword of fire and ice would be really good and would probably speed up the kill.

[Arsenal]

I like the Negator + MoR. It gives the deck an actual clock, plus he tramples. However, the times that you do not have a MoR active, do find Negator to be a liability? This deck doesn't run tons of permanents (unless saccing your valuable creatures is something you want to do), and usually only has 2-4 land out at all times.

However, one of the strengths of Negator is his ability to be Ritualed out on Turn 1. Because this is not Sui, do you feel as though a 1cc spell + 2cc creature is a better play on Turn 3? I usually go that route; three lands, 2cc creature, then leave 1 land open for eot StP, BrainStorm, etc.

[alebronwebb]

The Negator can be a liability, it is making me want to run Sword of Fire and Ice just to give him pro-red. I am not really a fan of Dark Ritual, yeah a Negator on turn one is a serious clock but its just to inconsistant to me.

I usually play Negator turn four or five so i can have mana open for counters.
Also their are a lot of ways to protect Negator and most Fish builds run some of them. The CounterTop combo is great against burn, the bane of Negator. Chalice @1 is also good, i have seen some run it and it does its job.

I am really not liking Daze much anymore, i know its a free counter but it slows tempo which sometimes hurts. Are there any other viable counters, maybe Spell Snare or something?

[raharu]

Nay, Spell Snare is narrow and Daze lets you get some things in that you shouldn't be allowed to (like a turn three 'Gator with counter support:cool:), but if you want to do some research, you might find something I haven't seen yet (although that is not too likely because I know every card in B/U ever printed that says "counter target spell...", so good luck). Again, I'm going to adventure into introducing a discusion on Lim-Dul's Vault. My line of thought now is that you can get through your entire deck for 10-11 life on turn three to find the card you boarded in that kills your opponent's deck and then have the mana open to play it, something that cantrips have no chance in hell at doing, and the 10-11 life thing is only if you end up digging through your entire deck to find the 3/4 of you're looking for. Vault still has the ponential to be useful as a normal filter, enhances the effectiveness of CounterTop, and also lets you get exactly what you want if you need it. I don't see the whole "card parity/ 2 mana is a step investment" arguement, perhaps I don't see it and I just have a Vault fettish, and perhaps the point has no weight, either way this should be an enlightening conversation.

[Lemuria]

Daze is supposed to run in a deck with 1cc and 2cc, like most fish builds should do, sou you may not find yourself with tempo issues. Since you all wants to rely in a 3cc creature as a finisher, wich a Fish build shouldn't do because it's an Aggro/Control deck, then Daze will just slow you down.

Countertop Solution, while similar to Fish, plays in a different way. It plays the control much more then the aggro, and also balance/top makes up for Daze, and running 3cc creatures (Trinket Mage) in this kind of deck is pretty much acceptable.

[raharu]

Shadowmage Infiltrator: could it replace Confidant? It's better with Counterbalance (more stuff at the 3cc slot) and damages your opponent instead of damaging you. I think that Sword of Light and Shadow + Infiltrator is pretty much a card a turn unless you run into Affinity. Shadowmage Infiltrator doesn't roll over to every removal ever-ever-ever, dodges Pyroclasm/ Sudden Shock. Thoughts?

[alebronwebb]

I agree Fish should run very low cc creatures, but there really is no reason not to run a few 3cc creatures to give the deck an actual clock. I might have over-reacted with Daze, sometimes its an issue but mostly not. I do play CounterTop so that helps with that.

Ive always been a fan of Infiltrator, but i dont think it really can replace Confidant. Running both is okay, maybe Infiltrator as a two or 3 three of. Of cource that would probably be best in a more control oriented build. But, yeah, Confidant can hurt but Jittes pretty much nullify his drawback. If you dont run Jittes i can see running Infiltrator though.

[raharu]

I think that it is about time to change the thought process entailed in building fish. The creatures should be chosen based on power, not nessicarily utility. On that note, I've been thinking and I have come to the conclusion that we need a rather large ass to end the game. When I say big, I don't mean 'Gator big, I mean a evading 6/6 or something like that, which upon resolution says "I just got done having sex with your mom, and it was GOOOOD!! Only because she paid me though". For some stupid reason Moroii comes to mind, but I'm quite sure it's not big enough. On the topic of big, is there any way to back up a Desectarion Elemental for long enough to end the game? I've given it some long thought, but nothing that we have any business running can keep it safe...

On the topic of cards we should be running, is there any reason why I don't see any lists with Vindicate MD anywhere? It literally answers ANYTHING. It's like StP on crack. We can say that it is a little slow (three mana) all day, but by that logic 'Gator has no place here *(please note that 'Gator is pretty much the only Renaissance that this deck has had pretty much ever, and is the main reason that this deck can run a compact creature-base and still be sucessful).

Another card I would like to bring up would be Cabal Therapy. Thoughts? Some of the adepts have claimed it to be better that Thoughtseize, and while I may not be convinced, it does have some synergy with the deck. Early game it shreds your opponent's hand when coupled with a Thoughtseize, and later it gets rid of Bob when he gets a little too friendly with your life total.

[alebronwebb]

Yeah, the deck needs a big finisher, 'Gator is okay but it doesn't have evasion on its own. I've always loved Moroii, a lot, but it might not be big enough. I am seriously thinking of dropping Avengers for Moroii, but i'd probably have to add a third Jittes.

Vindicate really deserves MD, yeah, yeah its slow but guess what, Fish isn't a fast deck. We don't want to overunn our opponent, we want to control them, then attack. The only reason I don't run them MD is because I just don't know what to drop.

[Lemuria]

Big creature with evasion with a low cost?

Well, you may drop the Grunts and run Tombstalkers instead.

[centurion8]

Big creature with evasion with a low cost?

Well, you may drop the Grunts and run Tombstalkers instead.

I really think that grunt is superior to Tombstalker in this deck, in general (I'm a strong proponent playing what you like/works for you). There are a lot of lists floating around, but the whole Confidant flip, take 8 thing makes me a little nervous. Flipping a FoW for 5 is usually bad enough. Also, Tombstalker is great on turn 5/6/7 when you have 6 cards and BB to play him with. Grunt is good on turn 2/3 when you have 2 graveyards to eat cards out of and bash/block w/ your 4/4. In additon grunt is less color intensive which for a 3 color deck that wants double White for Avenger and double black for tombstalker makes things tedious. One stifled fetch/wasteland and you're stuck w/ dead cards.

Regarding Lim-Dul's vault... Yea, being able to fetch out a sideboard card is great, but tutors in general are card disadvantage engines, the life loss in addition to fetches, confidants, and thoughtseize seems scary, and don't really fit the theme of the deck. It plays no "silver-bullet/I WIN" cards, and any decent player is going to let you tutor up whatever and then just counter that.

I've been playing UWb Fish for about 2 years now and have late been playing a Thresh/Fish blend inspired by Mike Thompson's decklist from 2007 Worlds.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgevent/worlds07/legacydecks

About 3/4 of the way down...
It runs Counter/Top MD, and splashes green for Goyf and Mongoose instead of MoR/Infiltrator and Serra Avenger.

[Hanni]

I haven't played MTG in like 4+ months, probably longer, ever since I got struck with a World of Warcraft addiction. Aside from that, and not knowing anything about what's new, this is what I have sleeved up and would roll with into some random metagame:

UWb Fish

Lands (17)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Plains

Creatures (16)
3 Mother of Runes
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Serra Avenger
4 Dark Confidant
4 Meddling Mage

Spells (27)
4 Brainstorm
4 Portent
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Duress
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Umezawa's Jitte

The sideboards can vary depending, I'd definitely want some number of Vindicates in there.

Basically, I liked Stifle before because of its improvement towards Goblins. Vs combo, it can easily be a SB option. Hitting Grunt was just a benefit. Since I'm guessing Thresh is the dominant deck, this deck doesn't need dead cards vs them. Another thing I completely regret is not running Portent... since day 1 this deck needed Duress + Portent maindeck. The whole point of this deck is the abusiveness of Meddling Mage... the deck should really be Meddling Mage.dec. Between Mother of Runes, Jitte, Duress, and Portent; Meddling Mage should always be a bomb. 8 cards that allow you to totally screw ur opponent over with Meddling Mage is a beautiful thing. If you're opponent gets their best card removed or their draws turned into crap, that's one thing... and then to have their next best play prevented with Meddling Mage? That's potent. I've been winning so many games on MWS because of this.

[kicks_422]

Maybe you should replace Portent with Ponder now, like everyone else is doing.

EDIT: Or screw people over with Meddling Mage with it. Yeah, I'm slow.

[Arsenal]

Hanni, you're aggro matchup seems shaky if they get the jump on you. You only play 4 guaranteed ways to deal with creatures after they've resolved. Jitte and MoR, while amazing, are both situational and not guaranteed to kill/remove their threat. Would you consider perhaps replacing Duress with Thoughtseize? Thoughtseize still gives you that information you desire for Meddling Mage, but it can nab a problematic creature if necessary.

Also, I see you cut one Avenger to add one Daze (now running full 4). How's that been working for you? I've always liked Daze as a 3-of, and 4 sometimes proved to clog up my hand and be dead. Avenger is almost never dead at any point in the game. She's also you're only creature with natural evasion, and a Jitte Avenger is often game.

Also, I see you cut your single Swamp for one Underground Sea (which in turn will make 4 Daze more effective). How's your testing with the manabase gone? Any problems with non-basic hate?

[kabal]

How is the deck do against CounterBalance Goyf?

[Waikiki]

Hey hanni, you did actually upload a new avatar hehe ;)

I still think the deck is very solid tho.

Do you really want 4 mages ? I don't find them all that impressive

[Arsenal]

I think if your build doesn't run 4 Duress/Thoughtseize + 4 Portent, then Mage loses it's effectiveness. Playing a blind Mage sucks.

However, because UWB no longer maindecks Stifle (some do, I personally don't), Mage is really your last line of defense versus combo. And even then, he isn't the end all be all. But by removing Mage, you're essentially giving combo a free win game 1. Mage at least makes the game stall for a turn or two, and that can make a difference when you're deperately trying to beat them with Jitte, Grunt, and Avenger.

[Volt]

.

[Arsenal]

Serendib Efreet would be my first choice to replace Avenger, but I'd never replace Avenger. Flying + Vigilance has proven to be essential in games when I'm at a creature deadlock, and when combined with Jitte, it's often game.

I don't see how Drake > Avenger in Fish. Please explain how Avenger doesn't cut it anymore.

[Volt]

.

[Arsenal]

Apparently, even Hanni doesn't think Serra Avenger is all that great, since he only runs 2 of them. It's a 3/3 for 2. It just ain't that scary in today's metagame. Lots of things (especially things with evasion) become scary once you put a jitte on it, so that isn't much of an argument.

Sea Drake has an extra point of power. That matters. It will often trade with a goyf if you need it to, or at least race evenly with it. Also, if you switch to the CounterTop engine (which you should) then Sea Drake gives you a 3cc spell to use with it. Sea Drake pitches to Force, but that's a pretty minor point.

Jitte + Avenger >>>> Jitte + Sea Drake, everyday of the week. Vigilance is the deciding factor here. I'd gladly pass on 1 point of power for Vigilance. Vigilance breaks the creature deadlock that you'll often find yourself in w/ Fish.

Also, Sea Drake is a big commitment re: his CiP trigger. When have you typically been dropping him? As early as turn 3? Do you wait until you have 4-5 lands out?

[raharu]

@Hanni: WoW will rot your brain (kinda like prons). Just don't do it. Also:

Meddling Mage is dead. At best, it could be a board card against Combo, and the same holds true with Stifle. 16 is too high of a creature count, but cutting the MM's should make your count 12, which would be fine if you ran 'Gator. On that note, with 4 Mother of Runes, there is no reason you shouldn't run at least 2 Negators Serra Avenger should always be a 3-of, if only becase of the interactions with MoR (epic blocker w/ Vigilance) and 'Jitte (7 a turn if you pull two counters).

@Volt: Sea Drake makes me sad. Sea Drake + 4 Daze = epic fail. Being a control deck, super tempo disadvantage is not the best plan. The +1 power is nice, but the lack of Vigilance and the tempo loss makes it a bad idea here. On the topic of 3cc cards, is there a slot for a few Shadowmage Infiltrator?

[Arsenal]

Fish is a tempo based deck, not pure control. But I get what you're saying, and I was alluding to that earlier re: Sea Drake's CiP commitment.

If you're looking for 3cc beef, I'd run Serendib Efreet, then Phyrexian Negator, before running Sea Drake, and none of those three would replace Avenger's slot. I could see cutting her down to 2 (cuz you typically don't want her/see her until turn 4-6 anyway), and maybe shaving a single Daze off for 2 Seredib Efreet/Negator. Slightly beefier and gives you 3cc spells to fight CounterTop.

[Volt]

.

[raharu]

@Volt: I'm not sure if I ever posted on the topic, but I have always believed that CounterTop belonged in Fish since Counterbalance was printed. I also believe that the deck should have become as much like bwu threshold as it could, trading Green beats for more control, better board cards and the ability to run a few less cantrips because it would be entirely yard independent. Phyrexian Negator deserves a home in this deck. Period. There is no reason that it shouldn't be at least a 2-of, if not a 3-of (although having 4 is a bad idea because you can't guard them all effectively). Phyrexian Negator is the only reason I would be fine with cutting the creature base to less than 14 (please note I think the optimal number of creatures in the deck would be 12-13). The paragraph of RAWR RAWR RAWR SEA DRAKE IS BAD IDEA RAWR RAWR RAWR was probably a little bit much. Volt, you have my apologies.

At any rate, the last line O' defense against combo should be CounterTop + free counters + thoughtseize, maybe with Stifles in the board (this would be my pick over Meddling Mage for sure), not rawr rawr Mage on combo piece, because Mage, being a creature, has all the shortcomings that a creature/ permanent has. Combo decks have been playing around Mage forever and they do an ok job at it, even getting rid of Mage during the combo off, giving you two things to take care of (protecting Mage and stopping the combo, or the alternative combo in some cases). I close this paragraph in saying that I really don't like Meddling Mage outside of Agro-Agro-control like Vault O' Hate where it has so much discard backup it isn't even funny. That's all I have to say. Oh yeah, Avenger is good because of Equipment and Moher of Runes (MoR makes it epic creature comtrol). Should the creature base look like this?:

Mother of Runes x4
Phyrexian Negator x3
Serra Avenger x3
Dark confidant x3

That would be 13, with Confidant more as CA than creature, and I would rather have something else in it's place, but the CA is much needed (or at least wanted).

[raharu]

I think this statement warants a double-post simply because it is on a vastly different topic than my first and it would be a shame if it were to be lost in the density of the first post.

This deck is no longer Fish. No longer does it seek to abuse vulnerable disruption sources like Meddling Mage. No longer does it run bad card choices because they answer a certant deck archtype. No longer is Fish a metagame deck. It is a deck that will (eventually) mature into a deck that has compotent, winnable match-ups across the board, a deck that doesn't cry when the metagame changes. This deck is going to be what all bwu control decks wish they could be. This deck is going to be, given enough time and attention, Ubw Threshold (or whatever you want to call threshold now).

Maybe this helps explain my thoughts on this deck, and maybe this will help accelerate growth in the right direction. Maybe it's spam, who knows? :rolleyes: I'm going to close with saying that the future of this deck, whatever it may turn out to be, is bright.

[alebronwebb]

@Raharu

I completly agree on, well, pretty much everything you have stated. Although I love me some Mage, Duress, and Portent I would rather play the deck with a faster clock. Serendib and Negator deserve attention, I really don't know why they don't bt oh well. Your creature base looks very ideal, although i run only 2 Avengers. I have toyed with Infiltrator and he is okay, it really helps that he has a better chance to dodge CounterTop and Chalice.

I don't really know what is with the reluctence of running 3cc creatures, I'd rather rely on Negator or Seredib than Lynx.

I love the idea of of UWb Thresh. :laugh:

[centurion8]

Regarding UWb Thresh... I've been playing a 4c deck running mongoose and goyf over avenger and MoR/Negator/Infiltrator. I think it's incredibly viable w/ the strengths of Fish and W-splash thresh, with the only drawback being a stretched manabase. I agree with you raharu that the current decks being discussed on the forum are not "Fish", and I feel (sadly, at that) that traditional fish w/ MoR, Avenger, MM, etc. is no longer all that viable. I do think that anyone wanting to continue running a more Fish-esque build should be playing Spectral Lynx MD (assuming your meta is in the 50-70% thresh like most). He's mana hungry w/ his regen, but if you drop him on turn 3 and keep that underground sea untapped he's an absolute house.

[raharu]

Ubw thresh

Creatures: 13
Mother of Runes x4 (non-negotiable slot)
Phyrexian Negator x3 (must be here, but the number could be debated)
Dark Confidant x3
Serra Avenger x3 (maybe as a two-of, but it has to stay, and neither as a 1-of or 4-of)

Control: 13
Thoughtseize x4 (non-negotiable slot)
Daze x3 (non-negotiable slot, maybe the number though)
Counterbalance x2 (non-negotiable slot, maybe the number though)
Force of Will x4 (non-negotiable slot)

Removal: 4
Swords to Plowshares x4 (non-negotiable slot)

Cantrips: 10
Sensei’s Divining Top x3 (non-negotiable)
Ponder x4 (non-negotiable)
Brainstorm x3**

Equipment: 2
Sword of Fire and Ice x2***

Lands: 18****
Flooded Strand x3
Polluted Delta x3
Underground Sea x4
Tundra x4
Island x2
Plains x1
Swamp x1

**: Brainstorm was cut to three because they suck horridly in the early game and the deck is really mana hungry, so Ponder’s ability to fix your land drops is more needed, and at any rate, the deck only runs 10 shuffle effects, 4 of which are Ponder. I would really rather have Portent here, but I’m sure someone would die if that was in the original list.

***: Beats the crap out of ‘Jitte for obvious reasons. The deck has little desire to attack into a creature because Mother of Runes pretty much dominates the creature side of the board, so ‘Jitte receiving counters from creature combat is irrelevant. The ability of Sword of Fire and Ice to draw cards is HUGE! It’s like having a beefed-up Shadowmage Infiltrator that burns on contact running around the board versus having a Darkblast/ bad Healing Salve/ bad Giant Growth on legs. The life gain is irrelevant because if you stick a SoFI to Negator/ Avenger, you are going to win the game in 3 turns or less. ’Jitte does nothing the turn it’s equipped, where SoFI has a constant, immediate effect, and the damage to the opponent when maximized is the same (although one generally doesn‘t spend all of a ‘Jitte‘s counters on an attack swing and you probably want to use a sword contact to burn-out an opponent‘s creature). Yes, ’Jitte is slightly better with Serra Avenger, but Negator has better synergy with SoFI, and since Negator is our new “Finisher”, that really doesn’t matter (and SoFI shields Avenger from catching a bolt to the face…). Yes, ’Jitte has it’s own advantages against Goblins/ Zoo/ Agro, but SoFI pretty much makes our creatures unblock able in these matches, and SoFI can burn-out blockers with the best of them. At any rate, with our creature-base, does that really even matter? It should pretty much eat random agro for breakfast or at least have a good game against them. Upon being given a objective analysis, SoFI beats ‘Jitte with a lead-filled snow-shoe all day every day.

****: More lands would be nice… Something like 19, maybe 20, but prolly 19.

Noticeable Exclusions:

Uwzema’s Jitte: see above

Meddling Mage: Yep, it’s a bad card choice. This deck couldn’t be (good as) Meddling Mage.dec if it’s life depended on it (there are soooooo many other good synergies with MM that aren‘t in the deck and would hamper this deck‘s effectiveness). If you really want to continue including this card in this deck you may as well still build for Hulk Flash.

Duress: If you read the Ugb threshold thread, you’ll know why this should have never been in the deck. I am absolutely ecstatic that Wizards printed Thoughtseize. Duress is good in the right deck, but it has always seemed somewhat sub par in this one.

Spectral Lynx: This was only included because everyone was crying about Tarmogofy. Now that we’ve pull our heads out of our asses and realized that a bigger/ equivalent creature rested comfortably within our casting cost range and our colors (Phyrexian Negator), Lynx has no home here. Lynx should have never replaced Mother of Runes.

The sideboard might look something like this (but duh, it depends upon the metagame in which you play)

Sideboard: 15
Stifle x4
Vindicate x4
Blue Elemental Blast/ Hydroblast x4 (fucking Blood Moon/ Magus of the Moon… 8 of them? That's simply malicious)
Tormod’s Crypt x3 (better than Leyline against a good portion of decks)

[alebronwebb]

Raharu I love the list, looks pretty much the same as mine. :tongue:
I personally play with 2 Avengers, 3 Counterbalance, and Jittes instead of SoFI (although i do need to test it). 19 lands sound good too. I completly agree on Lynx, although Lynx is just cool. It should have never replaced MoR.

All behold Fishy Thresh.

[raharu]

[QUOTE=centurion8;193419]Regarding UWb Thresh... I've been playing a 4c deck running mongoose and goyf over avenger and MoR/Negator/Infiltrator. I think it's incredibly viable w/ the strengths of Fish and W-splash thresh, with the only drawback being a stretched manabase.QUOTE]

aYb agro-control? I've always liked the deck, but with Mystic Enforcers. I feel that while that deck is more explosive, bwu thresh (it's a misnomer, but you can't call it Gro and you can't call it NQGbw) has more control and likes to control the pace (/tempo) of the game, winning on the clock best suited for it at the time (fast vs. MUC, maybe other thresh builds and slow as hell for agro and Goblins)

About that sideboard earlier... Wow, that's bad. I think the most apropriate procedure would be listing good options for the SB. Here we go:

Propaganda: A solid choice against random agro, Zoo, Goblins (less narrow that Engineered Plague), and maybe even thresh.

Extirpate: Graveyard hate. Much better than Crypt in most cases but at the time I was thinking about Crypt or Leyline/ Planar Void.

Blue Elemental Blast: Fucking Blood Moon/ Magus of the Moon. Also removal for Goblins (faster than Vindicate)

Vindicate: Universal answer.

Engineered Explosives: Whatever one uses EE for nowadays (GTFO Mongeese, GTFO)

Stifle: rawr rawr rawr combo combocombo. Yep, that's where it's at. Hits Pernicious Deed and Nyirval' Disk too (please forgive the spelling).

Pithing Needle: The aforementioned Deed and Disk, a permenent solution to Goblin Charbelcher, AEther Vial, Fledgling Dragon (or you could board out CounterTop vs. thresh and board in Needle... Prolly a bad idea, but it's just an idea).

Chalice of the Void: NinjaTech for the mirror? Out comes Cantrips, in goes some Chalice and Vindicate?

That should be a start. Anything else would be apreciated.

[centurion8]

Ubw thresh


**: Brainstorm was cut to three because they suck horridly in the early game and the deck is really mana hungry, so Ponder’s ability to fix your land drops is more needed, and at any rate, the deck only runs 10 shuffle effects, 4 of which are Ponder. I would really rather have Portent here, but I’m sure someone would die if that was in the original list.


Okay, I have to argue here... Last time I checked Brainstorm is arguably one of the best commons ever printed. Being able to play my card draw/land fixer EOT, or in response to an opponents spell to dig for a counter/removal. I mean, it's an instant that nets you a card, and allows you to get rid of crap in your hand. Sure, Ponder allows you to shuffle, but BS allows you to knowingly put a card on top for counterbalance. You can play what you like, but this seems like a really awful set-up IMO.
Also, where is the "thresh" title coming from? It plays nothing w/ threshold...

[raharu]

Okay, I have to argue here... Last time I checked Brainstorm is arguably one of the best commons ever printed. Being able to play my card draw/land fixer EOT, or in response to an opponents spell to dig for a counter/removal. I mean, it's an instant that nets you a card, and allows you to get rid of crap in your hand. Sure, Ponder allows you to shuffle, but BS allows you to knowingly put a card on top for counterbalance. You can play what you like, but this seems like a really awful set-up IMO.


Yes, all true, but the deck kinda feels mana hungry, and I like to dig for lands without stacking crap on top. Really one could/ should switch the Ponder/ Brainstorm numbers since both dig for three and net you a card before the end of the turn, and while I find Brainstorm w/o a shuffle a little less than stellar, the instant speed is quite nice.


Also, where is the "thresh" title coming from? It plays nothing w/ threshold...

NQGr, UG (land destruction) thresh, Ugw (control thresh) thresh and Ugb (not sure of it's role, prolly massive CA, a better board and more/ different control) thresh don't play alike either. Really this deck is less agro and more control than white with the ability to explode or regress into either. Phyrexian Negator and Mother of Runes play a large role in this, allowing you to either swing through the lines or hold off pretty much anything.

The draw of this deck (still needs a suiting name, since Ubw thresh is a misnomer) is the best removal (Swords to Plowshares), the best board options (Extirpate, Engineered Plague, Stifle, Leyline/ Planar Void if Extirpate won't do it, Propaganda, Vindicate, ect. ect.), the best proactive control (Thoughtseize is epic), all while retaining a no less efficent creature-base (although individually green thresh has better creatures indivadually, as a whole the base is the same in capability, difficulty to remove and power).

No, of course we don't have Tarmogoyf, Mystic Enforcer, or Nimble Mongoose, but we do have paralells or answers to them and a tighter control game.

[Arsenal]

Not like we have a weak combo matchup anyway, but Grimoire Thief from Morningtide looks to be mildly saucy versus Storm-based combo decks... Possible addition to UWB Fish?

[raharu]

In place of what? How would this really help? Why would I play that over Meddling Mage (and why would I play Meddling Mage over Stifle?)? It's not a bad sugestion, it's simply a bit weaker than what we already have access to.

[Arsenal]

In place of what? How would this really help? Why would I play that over Meddling Mage (and why would I play Meddling Mage over Stifle?)? It's not a bad sugestion, it's simply a bit weaker than what we already have access to.

I was thinking Thief + Mage, not Thief instead of Mage.

Thief forces your opponent to rethink how they stack the top of their deck. This is increasingly important in the Brainstorm, Ponder, and CounterTop meta that is taking shape. By threatening Thoughtseize + Thief, you force your opponent into the tough decision; do I let the Fish player grab something good w/ his Thoughtseize or do I Brainstorm in response to hide something good on the top of my library, but possibly allow it get RFG and subsequently get a second copy countered?

Thief also can act as Stifle 5-8 if you were able to snatch their Storm kill card. This is not realistic as most Storm decks only play 1-2 copies of their chosen kill card, so grabbing 1 copy of it w/ Thief seems highly unlikely. But your opponent doesn't know if you've grabbed a copy or not, so I'd be willing to bet that they'd bounce/kill Thief before going off just in case. And that doesn't even count the fact that they still have to bounce/kill Mage too.

Again, not saying he's an auto-include, but I think he could be looked at a bit closer possibly as a sideboard card.

[raharu]

But still, what would you cut? If you want Meddling Mage as well, what do you think is going to happen to the creature base? You get something like 4 Mage, 4 Thief, 3 Confidant, 2 something else. Not too appealing, if you ask me.

[Srovex]

Also, where is the "thresh" title coming from? It plays nothing w/ threshold...

NQGr, UG (land destruction) thresh, Ugw (control thresh) thresh and Ugb (not sure of it's role, prolly massive CA, a better board and more/ different control) thresh don't play alike either. Really this deck is less agro and more control than white with the ability to explode or regress into either. Phyrexian Negator and Mother of Runes play a large role in this, allowing you to either swing through the lines or hold off pretty much anything.

The draw of this deck (still needs a suiting name, since Ubw thresh is a misnomer) is the best removal (Swords to Plowshares), the best board options (Extirpate, Engineered Plague, Stifle, Leyline/ Planar Void if Extirpate won't do it, Propaganda, Vindicate, ect. ect.), the best proactive control (Thoughtseize is epic), all while retaining a no less efficent creature-base (although individually green thresh has better creatures indivadually, as a whole the base is the same in capability, difficulty to remove and power).

No, of course we don't have Tarmogoyf, Mystic Enforcer, or Nimble Mongoose, but we do have paralells or answers to them and a tighter control game.
I think he meant to ask why is this thing called "Thresh" if it doesn't run any cards with Threshold, alot decks run FoW, daze and countertop and they are not named thresh why should this? IMO the deck should be named something cool like Eva Green or Death & Taxes.

[FredMaster]

It's called Hanni Fish basicly. :cool:

[alebronwebb]

Let's just add Ghastly Demise, there threshold. The deck thats been posted lately, Raharu's and mine, just doesn't play like Hanni's build so it does need a good name. And really the deck does play like Thresh, excpet more controlling and IMO more versitile thanks to Mother of Runes.

I could see Grimoire Thief being added to Hanni Fish, the one that still plays Portent/MM/Cabal Therapy. I think it would be pretty good in there actually.

[raharu]

Yeah, Hanni Fish/ Meddilng Mage.dec is really good, better than Ubw thresh in some metagames. The point is that they are entirely different decks. In Fish, Grimoire Thief could be close to broken, when played as a 4-of. In this other unnamed monstrosity, currently known as Ubw thresh, it dillutes the creature base and slows the game plan. A creature list somewhat like the following would be really good in Hanni Fish:

4x Grimoire Thief
4x Meddling Mage
4x Dark Confidant
5-6x split Jotun Grunt/ Serra Avenger

[uwfish2000]

no mother of runes? i think MoR should be in the deck.

[raharu]

It is. Or at least in Ubw thresh. In Hanni Fish, it was cut a long time ago. If you look at the last page and chech my lists, you'll see it's a 4-of in every one. The thread kinda split a page or two ago, and stagnated for a while. I'm not so sure that Hanni Fish has room for it anymore, in all honesty. I would want Meddling Mage and Grimoire Thief each as 4-of's in Fish, and Dark Confidant has tohave at leats 3 slots, more likely than not 4, and then you don't really have a finisher and you only have about 4 creature slots left. I think that Hanni Fish's list needs to be reworked (I would do it, but I'm lazy ^_^)

[alebronwebb]

Yeah, for some reason or another Mother was replaced with Spectal Lynx???? Don't ask me why. It never, never, never should have been cut (But to Hanni's credit he did replace Lynx with MoR on page 20).

I really need to post my newest Fishy Thresh list, maybe tommorrow.

[The Ring Masta]

Here is a cut and paste from the Monster Den tournament report thread that I was in on Saturday. Included is the decklist and thoughts that I have about it...

was playing CounterTop Fish and did better then I thought I was going to, until I came up against Ben and his goblins. Can someone out there let me know how Fish can beat goblins (other then E Plague)? I’m thinking of putting Silver Knights or Explosives in SB next time. Other then only going 3-2, I had a great time. I know Jason had people doing deck lists so someone should be posting them soon.

Here is what I played... Going off of memory so it might be a little off...

Maindeck:
4x Force of Will
3x Counterbalance
3x Sensei's Diving Top
2x Spectral Lynx
4x Meddling Mage
4x Daze (all foil)
2x Stifle (all foil)
2x Serra's Avenger (all foil)
3x Mother of Ruins (all foil)
4x Dark Confidant (all foil)
4x Brainstorm (all foil)
3x Duress (all foil)
4x Swords to Plowshares (all foil)
4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
4x Tundra
2x Underground Sea
2x Scrubland
1x Island
1x Plains

I don’t remember my SB right now, but its pretty much a basic fish SB.

Round 1 (2-1) I beat Tickal playing dredge.
Game one: He goes off 2nd turn and swings for the win on turn 3.
Game two: He mulls a couple of times and finally keeps. He starts by hard casting Narcomeabas, which get Swordsed. I get control of the board with a grunt and just beat face.
Game three: Pretty much see game two. He couldn’t find any dredgers.

Round 2 (1-2) I don’t know his name but he was playing WW (I think)
Game 1-2: Don’t really remember. But we each took 1 game.
Game 3: I really punted this game. Hard. He gets 2 Mother of Ruins and a Silver Knight down and I have a Bob (with Jitte equipped) in play, a Swords to Plowshares, Terror and Mother of Ruins in hand. For some reason I never drop my Mom, to swing and wipe his board, but instead I wait to try to draw into another Terror or Swords to try to take care of the Knight/Moms and swing and wipe his board. To make a dumb mistake short I lost this game. Lesson learned. It didn’t really help that Tickal was talking in my ear/humping my arm during this game. (Only good thing Tickal did was actually compliment my deck… Something he does very rarely)

Round 3 (2-1 maybe 2-0) I beat Sean Carey playing Thresh
All the games were fairly close, but I came out on top. Nothing too special to note.

Round 4 (2-1) I beat Eric Hawkins playing Thresh
Game 1-2: Don’t really remember specifics, we each took a game.
Game 3: It goes back and forth for a while, I finally stabilize he puts down EE for 2 and pops it, I regen my Spectral Lynx’s and he scoops.

Round 5 (0-2) Ben (don’t remember your last name) beat me with Goblins
I probably could have drawn in, but Ben needed to win to make top 8. This is probably my worst match up… Even though I thought that was reserved for Dredge. I just get crushed underfoot by first turn Lackeys/Vials. Meddling Mage doesn’t do much versus Vial, awesome Ringleader pulls and everything goblins does.

All in all this is what I have figured out after/during the tourney…

3 Tops + 3 Counterbalances > 4 Serum Visions + 1 Duress +1 Mother of Ruins
Silver Knights > Spectral Lynx since I fear Goblins more then Thresh
I need to play around Wasteland more then I do
I need to make sure I stack my deck with Top better. I’m tired of having to re-top during my upkeep.

[raharu]

If Plague is too narrow for you, try Propaganda.

[Arsenal]

No maindeck equipment? That's a gamble, imo. It makes your opponent actually care about all of your 2/1 and 2/2 creatures. Jitte can help you immensely fighting off random aggro (WW), and refined tier 1 aggro (Goblins). Did the inclusion of the CounterTop engine, at the expense of equipment room, yield positive results?

[The Ring Masta]

No maindeck equipment? That's a gamble, imo. It makes your opponent actually care about all of your 2/1 and 2/2 creatures. Jitte can help you immensely fighting off random aggro (WW), and refined tier 1 aggro (Goblins). Did the inclusion of the CounterTop engine, at the expense of equipment room, yield positive results?


I knew I had too much land listed... Like I said in the post, I was going off of memory. Thank you for reminding me about Jitte... This should be the exact list short of the sideboard which was just jankily (yes, I know thats not a word) thrown together. And yes, I know I was running 61 cards.

Equipment wasn't cut for the Counterbalance/Top engine. 4 Serum Visions, 1 Mother of Runes and 1 Duress was cut.

2x Umezawa's Jitte
4x Force of Will
3x Counterbalance
3x Sensei's Diving Top
2x Spectral Lynx
4x Meddling Mage
4x Daze (all foil)
2x Stifle (all foil)
2x Serra's Avenger (all foil)
3x Mother of Runes (all foil)
4x Dark Confidant (all foil)
4x Brainstorm (all foil)
3x Duress (all foil)
4x Swords to Plowshares (all foil)
4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
4x Tundra
2x Underground Sea
1x Scrubland
1x Island
1x Plains

[centurion8]

Yeah, for some reason or another Mother was replaced with Spectal Lynx???? Don't ask me why. It never, never, never should have been cut (But to Hanni's credit he did replace Lynx with MoR on page 20).


If you read the context of the changes to "Hanni Fish", you'll see that MoR was cut in conjunction w/ MM, and Lynx was added. This was right after some large event that I can't remember (possibly US nationals??) where a vast majority of the field was playing Goyf as its primary win condition. Better ways of handling Goyf (shackles, EE, threads, smother) exist, and while he's very good, there isn't quite as much panic about him now.

Grimoire Thief seems pretty awful in either versions of UWb Fish imo. I guess if your meta is REALLY combo heavy it could be Mage's 5+, but otherwise it seems redundant. The chances you're actually going to hit their 2-of kill condition (Thief on turn 2, on the play, assuming they draw and pass) is something like 4%. I agree w/ Raharu that there are just better options... I'd rather drop the Mage naming their kill condition, and play Stifle/Duress/Therapy/Thoughtseize.

Has anyone playing Phyrexian Negator considered just splashing Green for Goyf instead of playing such a liability?

[alebronwebb]

Honestly, there have been a couple times that Negator hurts. But that really requires a god hand on their part. The lists running Negator run CounterTop so that helps against stuff like Pyroclasm. We run MoR (yes, they can kill mom but it still helps). We run a pretty good selective discard suite. And we run Sword of Fire and Ice which is a god send versus Negators biggest enemy, burn.
I've never considered splashing green, Fish has a pretty good land base and I don't to ruin that by running Goyf.

After looking for a while at Grimoire Thief it doesn't look that good, it doens't really have much of a chance of hitting anything relevant. Maybe against Thresh it could be useful since they like to set up their draws but I don't know. I was captivated by the danger of cool things I quess.

[raharu]

If you read the context of the changes to "Hanni Fish", you'll see that MoR was cut in conjunction w/ MM, and Lynx was added. This was right after some large event that I can't remember (possibly US nationals??) where a vast majority of the field was playing Goyf as its primary win condition. Better ways of handling Goyf (shackles, EE, threads, smother) exist, and while he's very good, there isn't quite as much panic about him now.


Mother of Runes fulfills the same role (albeit not on the turn it comes down, but it does), and it lets 'Gator slap 'Goyf all around the board. As far as splashing green, I would just run aYb ago-control and add in Mystic Enforcers over Tombstalkers. One of the reasons I like 'Gator is because it costs 3cc, which is good for Counterbalance. A small point, but a valid point.

On a side note, has anyone had any problems maintaining even CA with Landstill/ other dedicated control decks? I've been thinking lately about (can't test the MU because all I have to test against readily is Thresh and Goblins), and it has been bothering the snot out of me. Against thresh it most often degenerates into a vicious top-deck war (I could swear that someone is misassiging thie role in this MU, but any way this match gets played, it happens the same). Thoughts?

[alebronwebb]

Spalshing green for Goyf, run actual Thresh then it's better in there. Not worth destroying the land base, when we do have a better creature (most of the time) in Negator. And Negator is just much cooler:wink: .

I personally haven't, but our deck doesn't really have that robust of a draw-engine. Confidant+MoR is the main one imo, cantrips (yep), and Sword of Fire and Ice (conditional, but still good). Playing against Landstill is hard because they gain so much CA from Landstill/Deed/Wrath. Them dropping Landstill t2 makes me cry.
I've never had that problem with Thresh though, they run pretty similar to us really. Ugb Thresh might have the best draw engine (Confidant, again) but ours is better since we can protect it. They run a lot more cantrips so that might beat us. Other than that though I think we can have better CA than thresh, but really we would need Confidant+MoR out or maybe Mor+SoFI and another creature.

[The Ring Masta]

I was watching a match a couple months ago that made me want to not run negator... I don't know exactly what the other guy was running, but he burning wished for Savage Twister and just demolished the other guys board. It was pretty savage. I think Fish pretty much needs to keep its stuff on the board lol.

[centurion8]

On a side note, has anyone had any problems maintaining even CA with Landstill/ other dedicated control decks? I've been thinking lately about (can't test the MU because all I have to test against readily is Thresh and Goblins), and it has been bothering the snot out of me. Against thresh it most often degenerates into a vicious top-deck war (I could swear that someone is misassiging thie role in this MU, but any way this match gets played, it happens the same). Thoughts?

I don't think your goal against landstill should be to maintain "even CA". They play better draw and mass removal. You should play your game, and try to minimize their CA by playing intelligently.
Thresh is a 50/50 imo, mostly coming down to who gets the better draw.


Spalshing green for Goyf, run actual Thresh then it's better in there. Not worth destroying the land base, when we do have a better creature (most of the time) in Negator. And Negator is just much cooler .

I play 4 colors w/ goyf, bob, MM, mongoose and never get stuck w/o a color playing 18 lands. I just don't see how Negator is better than Goyf?? Sure, he lacks trample, can't hit counterbalance for 3, but what are you consistently trying to counter at the 3cc spot? I like being able to play my creatures w/o the MoR/SoFI/Multiple counter back-up that negator requires.

[Shtriga]

I (unfortunately) agree that the splash for goyf would be the best solution. negator is just awful lately especially in a multi color agro control deck that unlike sui black actually worries about losing some lands

[raharu]

I don't think your goal against landstill should be to maintain "even CA". They play better draw and mass removal. You should play your game, and try to minimize their CA by playing intelligently.


I hate topdecking protection. Seriously, it's the worst position to be in against control, ever. I've been thinking about running Pulse of the Grid to answer the CA problem, maybe as a sideboard card? Meditate could be better, not sure.


Thresh is a 50/50 imo, mostly coming down to who gets the better draw.

They eat it to Countertop, and they don't have much to do against Negator. Mother of Runes is great for, if you can get it through the CounterTop lock. SB trickbind here is sexy.

[alebronwebb]

Pulse of the Grid looks like good tech against Landstill, pretty much most of time we should be able to get 2+ ueses out of it. And again it strengthens CounterTop. I'm not really sure about Meditate, the skip a turn doesn't look good for an aggro-control deck.

I am going to say I am not a fan of 4cc Fish, I'm just not. If you've had success with it great, I just don't like it for the same reason I don't like 4cc Landstill. Wasteland hurts, Crucible+wasteland is an actual lock then. 3cc Fish allows you to run atleast one-of each basics, which is better imo.

Negator has been a liability a couple of times, not enough for me to throw him out. And yes 3cc for CounterTop helps, against randomdeck, and a lot of midrange aggro-control, which run an absolute killer against this deck in Pernicious Deed.

@ Raharu. What do you think about running Tombstalker in place of Serra Avenger. If nothing else it gives us an out for "when" Negator becomes a liability. And dodges CounterTop. Probably a stupid question, but oh well getting it out there.

[centurion8]

Pulse of the Grid looks like good tech against Landstill, pretty much most of time we should be able to get 2+ ueses out of it. And again it strengthens CounterTop. I'm not really sure about Meditate, the skip a turn doesn't look good for an aggro-control deck.


After doing a gatherer search on Pulse of the Grid I was left wondering what you're currently SBing (couldn't find a list in the last page or so) to consider playing that or even worse Meditate??
Also, is your Landstill matchup really that bad? I always thought it was slightly to our advantage.

Raharu: do you have a scan of your tutor?

[f|i[p]]

Honestly speaking,

I don't think meditate will find a spot in this deck, It's already hard enough handling aggro decks or any deck that can put a lot of pesky permanents down.

I have actually tried tombstalker just last night, as I didn't want to put in negator at all. Not in this kind of deck, negator is just too risky for a deck with not much permanents as well as reactive protection.

I have tried Tombstalker, and he really goes down quite fast, with all the draw and fetch we have. Not much problems drawing him with dark confidant because of brainstorm, ponder or even sensei if you are going for the counter top. Although there are risks still. Ill have to test this more though.

I am still looking for threats for fish variants, and only a few has tickled my fancies.

[alebronwebb]

Alright here's my current build (I believe my last list was on page 19 or so):

Lands 18
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Plain
1 Swamp

Creatures 12
4 Mother of Runes
4 Dark Confidant
2 Phyrexian Negator
2 Serra Avenger

Other 30
3 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Thoughtseize
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Sword of Fire and Ice

SB
3 Extirpate
3 Vindicate
3 Pithing Needle
3 Duress
3 Propaganda/Enginnered Plague

I personally don't have much of a problem with Landstill, but Pulse of the Grid is interesting, (just answering Raharu's question on the subject) and really not a bad card against them.

Noticable changes:
-1 Phyrexian Negator +1 Dark Confidant.
I wanted more draw and still have not had much of a problem getting 'gator out.
-1 Ponder +1 Thoughtseize.
I don't know 3 Thoughtseizes looked bad.
-2 Jitte +2 Sword of Fire and Ice.
It is better since I run Negator (protects him from burn). It doesn't need to be built up like Jitte. It gives more card draw and reach. I am not going to say Jitte is bad at all, I just think Sword of F&I is better in this deck.

EDIT: I really going to have to try Tombstalker. It can come down faster than Avenger and helps vs. grveyard decks. It is also a nice back-up plan with Negator. I completly understand people reluctance on running Negator, I haven't had trouble with him so I have left him in. There are a lot of reasons not to run Negator, but there really isn't a better beater for UWB at the moment (come on Shadowmoor, give us some love).

[f|i[p]]

I have been playing with negator for quite a long time now, but not in fish build but with mother of runes as well, 2 negators is a good choice as when I ran it in w/b aggro decks, I had discard and 4 mothers protecting its ass.

Tombstalker does come down quite fast when I tested him, over negator. fish always wants a big beater as its the only thing that really makes fish weak, its lack of real threats.

On the side note I was wondering if hoofprints of the stag was ever tested in this kind of build?

[centurion8]

Alright here's my current build (I believe my last list was on page 19 or so):

Lands 18
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Plain
1 Swamp

Creatures 12
4 Mother of Runes
4 Dark Confidant
2 Phyrexian Negator
2 Serra Avenger

Other 30
3 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Thoughtseize
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Sword of Fire and Ice

SB
3 Extirpate
3 Vindicate
3 Pithing Needle
3 Duress
3 Propaganda/Enginnered Plague

I am not going to say Jitte is bad at all, I just think Sword of F&I is better in this deck.

EDIT: I really going to have to try Tombstalker. It does come down faster than Avenger and helps vs. grveyard decks. It is also a nice back-up plan with Negator. I completly understand people reluctance on running Negator, I haven't had trouble with him so I have left him in. There are a lot of reasons not to run Negator, but there really isn't a better beater for UWB at the moment (come on Shadowmoor, give us some love).

RE: Tombstalker for Avenger... I think SA is better in a deck w/ Jitte, being able to get in there for 7, and then block pretty much anything coming back at you. SoFI makes her worse imo, and seems really important in protecting your Negator (you all have bigger nuts than i do for playing that guy).

What do you board the Duress in against? I'm assuming control/combo, but 7 discard effects seems like a lot.

[alebronwebb]

I think cutting Negator to two is the correct choice, making it easier to protect him. Regarding threats, I think Raharu's and my list are looking better than "old" fish since we can stand up to aggro.

I've never tested Hoofprints, but I think it could be a win-more in the more aggro build.

Yeah, I am thinking that I am going to take out Avenger for Tombstalker.
At Duress, yes control/combo. It probably should be Orim's Chant or something but I don't have any at the moment.

This might be noobyness on my part but I don't see how SOFI makes Avenger worse, you still get 7 in and card draw. Jitte is more flexible though.

[centurion8]

I think cutting Negator to two is the correct choice, making it easier to protect him. Regarding threats, I think Raharu's and my list are looking better than "old" fish since we can stand up to aggro.
I've never tested Hoofprints, but I think it could be a win-more in the more aggro build.
Yeah, I am thinking that I am going to take out Avenger for Tombstalker.
At Duress, yes control/combo. It probably should be Orim's Chant or something but I don't have any at the moment.
This might be noobyness on my part but I don't see how SOFI makes Avenger worse, you still get 7 in and card draw. Jitte is more flexible though.

I completely agree about Hoofprints. I'd rather play Jotun Grunt in that slot, being able to eat yards, and dodge Pithing Needle (which is an auto-board against Fish).
I guess I was referring how you can accumulate more counters on the Jitte using SA as a blocker. Attacking into a SA w/ a Jitte seems worse than attacking into SA w/ a SoFI.
I'd recommend meddling mage or even stifle in the place of duress against combo, and I'm always a huge fan of Engineered Explosives (playable against pretty much everything).

[raharu]

I've vaguely considered Hoofprints of the Stag, and while I'll conceede that they might be win-more/ unutilitarian in Hanni Fish/ 'Gator Fish, in a more controling deck they could be quite decent. With a creature/ win-condition base like this:

Hoofprints of the Stag x3
Tombstalker x3
S'moar win x??

In a build like this, I would replace Confidant with Phyrexian Arena because Confidant's effect doesn't charge Hoofprints, and without Mother or Runes, you have to use hard-counters and CounterTop activations to protect a now sub-par envestment (no equipment, all the removal now targets him). Some board sweep would be in order, and Propaganda could/ shuld be maindecked with regards to the local metagame. I'll mull over a list and get back to you all at a later date.

[CB4SN13]

Alright here's my current build (I believe my last list was on page 19 or so):

Lands 18
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Plain
1 Swamp

Creatures 12
4 Mother of Runes
4 Dark Confidant
2 Phyrexian Negator
2 Serra Avenger

Other 30
3 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Thoughtseize
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Sword of Fire and Ice

SB
3 Extirpate
3 Vindicate
3 Pithing Needle
3 Duress
3 Propaganda/Enginnered Plague

With only 12 creatures, and 4 of them being MoR, wouldn't it be too little creatures to effectively play SoFI? Can the SoFI be taken out for something else?

[technogeek5000]

I was testing a trinket fish list a little while back and was working realy well for me.

4 Trinket Mage
4 Meddling Mage
4 Dark Confidant
4 Force of will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Meekstone
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Underground Sea
4 Tundra
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Island
2 Mishra's Factory

4 Engineered Plauge
4 Thoughtsieze
4 Leyline of the void
2 Tividars crusade
1 Tormod's crypt

The 6 goblins hate would probably help out in the post SHA metagame as with vexing shusher and bloodmark mentor goblins will become more popular and more problematic.

[NQN]

Actually i like Fish alot and since i built Uwb Landstill i have all the cards for this deck. So here´s the list I´m testing with:

// Lands
1 [R] Scrubland
2 [R] Tundra
2 [R] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [LRW] Swamp (1)
1 [LRW] Plains (1)
2 [LRW] Island (1)
2 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [PS] Meddling Mage
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
2 [CS] Jotun Grunt

// Spells
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [AT] Swords to Plowshares
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
3 [SC] Stifle
4 [MOR] Bitterblossom
1 [ON] Smother
4 [NE] Daze
3 [LOR] Ponder

Bitterblossom is THE card. It pwns every NQG and even Landstill will always loose to it if they don´t get EE/Deed and counter my stifle. Anyway I don´t have much experience with this so maybe you can give me a little help?
I play only 5 duals because fetchies are more important and i want to win against Blood Moon. 3 Swords 1 Smother is because of MM. Suggestions?

[Frank The Tank]

So has anyone had any success with Bitterblossom?

[Jak]

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Academy Ruins

4 Brainstorm
2 Sensei's Diving Top

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Counterbalance
3 Spell Snare / Thoughtseize

4 Dark Confidant
3 Trinket Mage
4 Serra Avenger
4 Bitterblossom

4 Swords to Plowshares
1 EE
1 Meekstone

SB
4 Engineered Plague
3 Vindicate
3 Extirpate
2 Pithing Needle
3 Thoughtseize / Spell Snare

Something that could be promising.

[thefreakaccident]

I really like that list Jak... however, I think I would prolly want to run more than 1 of the stone, as it seems to be a pretty important piece in the deck...

I think that it would be cool to swarm with tokens, while shutting off their men as well... the control MU looks piss poor however.

[Teferi74]

I was wondering if Bitterblossom doesn't hurt too much beside Fetch, FoW, Thoughtseize???

I replaced Thoughtseize by Duress because it was too painful. And StpS can get rid of nasty creatures if Duress fails.

I run a very different version of the lists before so maybe that's the reason.

4 Trinket Mage
4 Dark Confidant
4 Meddling Mage
2 Jotun Grunt

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate
3 Duress
3 Stifle

2 Engineerd Explosives
1 Sensei Top
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod’s Crypt/


4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
2 Scrubland
3 Islands
2 Plains
2 Swamp



SB
1 Stifle
4 Smother
2 Eng Explosives
2 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Pithing needle
1 Jotun Grunt
2 Jitte


Trinket Mage is a vey powerful creature that's gives the deck a versatile edge. Some people say that Vindicate is too slow but it saved me a lot of times.

[raharu]

Has anyone considered Ensnare in a more agro-oriented version of the deck?

Also, I see a startling lack of large beaters/ strong win conditions in the newer versions of the deck, which is troubling. Fish doesn't have sufficent methods of consistantly removing roadblocks such as Tarmogoyf, or even smaller threats, so Grunt and the smaller creatures can seal the deal, which seems as though it would be a very significant problem.

[Unknown2]

what do you guys think about adding the counter/top engine to this kind of deck? I run it in UW fish and it's pretty decent, would we be able to fit it into 3 colour?

[FredMaster]

Let the randomness end:
//17 Lands - 4 Basic
4 Meddling Mage
4 Dark Confidant
4 Jotun Grunt
2 Shadowmage Infiltrator

//Autoincludes
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance

//Rest
2 Vindicate

[Unknown2]

i like that list
but i'm thinking

-2 vindicates
+2 serra avenger

[raharu]

Grunt? Seriously? The origional deck had less permanents and even then it had a problem keeping it on the table for a relevant amount of time and elected to only run three, and now that you've taken out a significant number of non-perm spells you're going to run 4 Grunts? I think not. I presume I would be able to get behind Grunt in this build if there were other relevant threats or if you could show me how grunt is actually playable, but considering that I see no evidence of either in this deck whatsoever, I'll have to say:

GRUNT IS TERRIBLE IN THAT LIST!

Recomendations:

Tombstalker: Yes, you run DC. You also run Sensei's Divining Top (which, by itself, has enabled Deadguy Ale to run TS) and Brainstorm, i.e. stop being a pussy :] I presume it's a matter of play attitude, if that makes any sense, meaning some people just, uh, to put it bluntly and probably offend someone, have more balls than others when it comes to taking totatly random risks when construction their deck.

Phyrexian Negator + MoR in a Daze slot, a Counterbalance slot, and two of the Grunt slots, with Negator in the other two: Well, this isn't really that hard to explain. They fucking wreck shit, and CB stops MoR removal pretty well.

Sera Avenger: it's a bit lackluster without Jitte, but -4 grunt, +2 Avenger, +2 Jitte could be pretty strong and make your other creatures (mainly Shadowmage Intiltrator) a bit better.

Uh, Morphling? That's all the ideas I have as far as finishers.

Closing comemnts: Really, 4 Daze and 4 CB? That's two slots you could devote to win conditions (see above), enhance consistancey (Ponders), encrease the disruption (Duress, depending on the metagame), or other tech or deckbuilding tweaks (more lands, Stifles, Wastelands perhaps but prolly not, other things I'll elect to keep hidden). Why take those slots for cards you don't want to see more than one of (in most situations)?

[Unknown2]

after readinbg your reply, i agree with mostly everything there, minus the morphling, mostly because of the fact that it doesn't need finishers, as it just beats with a bunch of small stuff.

[raharu]

after readinbg your reply, i agree with mostly everything there, minus the morphling, mostly because of the fact that it doesn't need finishers, as it just beats with a bunch of small stuff.
Uh, this is the most neutral and vague statement I think I've ever seen in my life. I'm not sure how to analyze your point as I can't find them. Assuming you're saying that the deck simply beats with small creatures and doesn't need any finishers, i.e. that list's creature base is fine as is, I have this to say:

In the age of Tarmgoyf, this is pretty much an invalid idea. Hell, in the age of, uh, always this was a pretty weak idea, considering that just about all decks in the format have answers to weak creatures (i.e. every deck ever runs some form of removal, even combo, and most of it is reall)y bad for Fish anyway [Massacare in particular for the lists I've seen posted]). Your creatures are rather frail. Yes, Counterbalance fixes this, but by then you could/ should win anyway, or you should use the time it creates to win fast instead of hoping that the CB soft-lock sticks until you beat through with a 2/2 or try to race with a 4/4 that has no evasion, dies to itself, and is rather prone to chump blocking.

If you're somehow saying that the "beating with small stuff" plan isn't effective and the deck needs a finisher:

Well, yes and no. Needs a finsher, but the deck can also win small by just playing tight and getting in damage from utility critters. Although I'm fairly sure that this isn't a good way to actually finish a game, it shortens your clock so that your finisher can come in and wreck shit within 2-ish turns, or something very close to that timeframe.

[Hanni]

Bitterblossom is a great card but it is not designed for Fish. Confidant, Fetchlands, Thoughtseize... and Bitterblossom? Good luck.

Trinket Mage? Yes, if you run Phyrexian Dreadnought. Which, honestly, has replaced this deck. Turn 2 Dreadnought is more potent than what Fish should be able to do. Fish was great a while ago (IMO), but if it is to be tuned for this new meta... it needs ALOT of work.

Why are people hating on Jotun Grunt? Jotun Grunt is a house. 2cc for a 4/4 was never bad. Yes, he's not a permanent threat... but with all the removal going around, nothing ever is (unless it can be recurred). Jotun Grunt hoses the graveyard overtime... and graveyard strategies are over-abundant right now.

Never cut Mother of Runes. MoR is one of the key parts to the deck. MoR supports the weak aggro of the deck, turning them into good beats. Between Jitte and MoR, the small 2/x aggro actually become very powerful.

Phyrexian Negator is terrible. Unless you have an active MoR that can protect him, he's going to hurt more than help. This deck doesn't generate enough permanents to support his drawback. 2B for a 5/5 is dumb when you can splash green for Goyf which can easily become a 5/6 for 1G in this deck.

Tombstalker is a solid choice, especially with Top.

Serra Avenger is a bit lame by todays standards. In the Goblin heavy meta, it was awesome. Nowadays, it's only valuable if it has a Jitte (or MoR).

Vindicate is extremely strong in the metagame nowadays because of cards like Counterbalance.

Morphling? Play a different deck if you like Morphling, IMO.

Stifle is dumb in Fish nowadays, even with Grunt. Unless you are running Wasteland (which I think is dumb in a 3c Fish deck), Counterbalance or Thoughtseize is much better than Stifle.

---

Mother of Runes
Jotun Grunt
Dark Confidant

Those should be mainstays, with Meddling Mage, Tombstalker, and Spectral Lynx being strong additional guys.

I love Meddling Mage, but only if the deck is built around it. That means running Portent and Duress/Thoughtseize.


Spectral Lynx is a metagame choice.

Honestly, I think this deck outdated. It was great back when I designed it, and could have been way better if I knew then what I knew now, but the evolution of Legacy has invalidated this approach, IMO.

The evolution of Fish has Stifles and Dreadnoughts.

[thefreakaccident]

Dominate the entire format?

Those are strong words... the deck is good, but every deck has bad MUs, so dominating is a strong word... it will still have steady competition by either current decks or future decks built to combat it... (if it really was broken as ass).

[raharu]

Can no one catch sarcasm around here?
Fuck!

Anyway, Grunt is ass, for the reasons outlined already. I'd cut it entirely and replace it with something that can actually beat instead of being chumped for 1-3 turns, then die. Grunt is a situationally good card, it's too situational to be playable a relevant amount of the time. It's horendous against agro (and in some cases agro-control), which is already a bad MU, and now you want to make bad matches worse? Also, on that note, the deck needs at least 2 Jittes in the main. 2 sounds like a good number with a fair amount of dig. I'd say Serra Avenger still deserves a slot because it's strong against agro (although stupid 'Goyf wrecks her shit if she isn't packing), which, again, isn't really a strong pairing for this deck. Equipment in the main is pretty much mandatory now because of Tarmogoyf. Ditto for MoR (although it's just too amazing to pull from the deck anyway, unless you live in an entirely combo metagame).

As far as finishers go, Tombstalker really is the best plan. Actually, it's pretty much the only thing that's going to be good as a stand alone, and it still has good synergy with the rest of the deck. I'll draft a list if I feel like it tomorrow (it's 1:31 here and I'm used to going to sleep at 9 and waking at 4, so yeah).

Also, TAT isn't going to dominate the metagame. It, like most decks, has weaknesses, and if one wanted to they could easily make a deck that would tear TAT apart at the seams, just like one could with any other deck (aside from Threshold, but that's just because it can play whatever it wants to and not afraid of anything).

[Frank The Tank]

Has anyone seen the new Knight in Eventide?

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=74584&d=1215091624

Do you think it would be a fit for fish? Being able to laugh at swords, putrefy, and smother is nothing to scoff at.

[raharu]

Has anyone seen the new Knight in Eventide?

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=74584&d=1215091624

Do you think it would be a fit for fish? Being able to laugh at swords, putrefy, and smother is nothing to scoff at.
Wayyyyyyyyy to mana intensive. 17 lands, not 24 like in Deadguy (referencing Nantuko Shade). Pro white and Black isn't all that relevant.

[Frank The Tank]

So no more love for Fish or what?

[Hanni]

Not anymore. This deck was for an old metagame. If it is meant to survive now, it needs Dreadnoughts. UWb Fish + Dreadnought is being discussed in another thread. The traditional MoR + Jitte attached to any of Confidant, Mage, Grunt, or Avenger is not enough these days.

That said, I've seen Dreadnought decks with MoR go very far. Confidant + Mage are still good, too. Just needs some tweaking.

Tradtional UWb? Not so much. It's okay, I'm over it.

[Frank The Tank]

Well isn't that a biatch :( I have had this deck as my staple 1.5 for like 4 years (baring minor changes) and I refuse to spash in green for goyfs.

Guess I will have to pick up 4 Dreadnoughts and tweak it a little

[Volt]

.

[FredMaster]

In my opinion the deck still has potential even without the dreadnought.
I mean Confidant, MM, TS and StP in a deck that can support all this with a solid manabase and a nice curve for CB... It sounds like a good deck to me.

[raharu]

So it seems that Fish, with 6 t8 appearances this period, is a DTW. Isn't that neat. At any rate, here are 4 of the lists (I've yet to cull the other 2 up yet, but one is a UGr build and the other is UBw.)

UW Vial-Still Fish (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=19652)

UBW Enlightened Tutor Fish (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=19652)

UBw Fish (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=19657)

And now, for the list that makes me smile so hard my face hurts, UGr Fish (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20032), with 1x Maindeck Grizzly Bears!

But seriously though, even though I don't like the colors at all, there are some interesting choices made in this build. For Example, Deep Anal as opposed to Fact or Fiction or another draw engine/spell: I like this. It's pretty stout against control, because it's a Draw 4 that you'll actually get to cast, and in this build (running 4x Wild Mongrels and 3x Looter il-kor {tangent- I would have added the 4th Looter in the Grizzly Bears slot}) it's also good in the mid-game because it'll hit the yard for a good reason a decent bit of time. On that note I've been liking the thought of Looter il-kor in a more CA creature centric build.

Also, the Stifle-Waste plan looks a little bit cleaner here than it does in UGr Thrash, because it doesn't cut into the manabase at all, the creatures are a hair more aggressive because of Rancor + either evasion in the case of Looter il-kor and Wonder, Being Tarmogoyf (which doesn't really hold much against UGr Thrash's Tarmogoyfs, save that the FishoGoyfs can wear Rancor and fly), Being able to grow in the case of Wild Mongrel, or being a bear in the case of Grizzly Bears (as cute as that is, why wouldn't you want a Werebear/ another Looter in that slot? Or Ashcoat Bears, fuck).

At any rate, I think I'd tweak the manabase a bit, cutting down to 20 lands and changing the fetchland ratios, and find some room for 4x Lightening Bolt in the MD.



I presume it's a neat fact that none of these lists ran CounterTop.

[thefreakaccident]

Hopefully, no body minds if I chime in...

I agreed with what Hanni has been saying for quite some time now.. this deck needs to change in order to succeed in legacy...

Obviously, we were both wrong, as it has had this level of success in the european metagame (which is a lot more diverse than the american meta, therefore more difficult to do well IMO)...

Anyways, here is what I think fish should look like to combat the current environment:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=241217&postcount=450

[raharu]

Well, you were right in one aspect: Fish had to change to do well in this environment, and it did. The only part where you were wrong was in thinking it had to move forward. Of all the recently successful lists I've seen, they've regressed into playing old-school Fish, such as UW Silver Knight Fish or UBw Trinket Fish playing typical tutor targets like those found in CounterTop Solution (EE, Pithing Needle, Crypt, etc.).

Then again... looking at that UGr list, That's pretty damn neat, if I may say so myself. I'd love to see someone develop that a bit more. I think something like this would be a bit better:

Creatures: 15
Looter il-kor x4
Wild Mongrel x4
Tarmogoyf x4
Wonder x3

Instants: 16
Daze x4
FoW x4
Brainstorm x4
Stifle x4

Sorceries: 3
Deep Anal x3

Enchantments: 3
Rancor x3

Lands: 19
Wasteland x4
Wooded Foothills x2
Flooded Strand x2
Polluted Delta x2
Tropical Island x3
Volcanic Island x3
Island x2
Forest x1

4x Empty. Could be Threads (I've never liked it, personally), Pyroblasts, Lightning Bolts, Needles, Repeal. Repeals look the strongest, though.

Looter makes me think of UBw Fish, though... hrm. I'll get back to you on that.

[thefreakaccident]

@ raharu...

After looking at the builds that you pointed out... it seems to be that you were correct.


However, the deck that you just showed doesn't really belong here... I don't think...

As it is not even close to the color scheme (read urg instead of uwb)... and I don't even know if it can be called fish.

Anyways... I won't post here any more, as I do not play fish enough to give good feedback.

[MSC]

Before this Thread dies on the fourth Page of the Established Decks Section, I thought i post my own Variant of UWb Fish.

UWb Fish
Lands (17)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Creatures (15)
4 Dark Confidant
2 Meddling Mage
2 Spectral Lynx
3 Shadowmage Infiltrator
2 Jötun Grunt
2 Tombstalker

Permanents (7)
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance

Spells (21)
3 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate

Sideboard (15)
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Meddling Mage
3 Perish
2 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Hydroblast



Card Choices

Spectral Lynx
This Card is incredibly strong in a Meta full of Goyfs and Mongoose. Blocking them all Day, or attacking right through them is hard, especialy on Grow. The Ability to survive Deed and Explosives is nice to. The 2/2 Split with Meddling Mage is a temporal Test to see, who gets the Spot.

Tombstalker
This Deck needs something to finish the Game, once it gets control. This Creature can perform this Task. Its hard when revealed with Confidant, but this Card has enough Libary Manipulation, that it rarely happens.

Counterbalance
Do I realy have to explain this? This Deck can Counter even for 3 Mana, making it Harder for the Opponent to get around

Ponder
It's relativly new in my List, but it is huge. It's so much better in the early Turns, cause you can shuffle, if you didn't find, what you are looking for.

Vindicate
About this Card i got Questioned a lot of Times. I don't know why... It handels Humilitys, Counterbalances, Vials, Recursion Lands, Creatures and even Planeswalkers, that pop out of nowhere sometimes. And you can destroy creatures, whithout getting the opponent more Life.


Perish
At the Moment there is a relevant amount of Elf-Decks in my Meta and without this Card you just loose this Matchup.

Hydroblasts & BEBs
Of cause 6 looks like I'm crazy. But this amount totaly wrecks Burn and Slight-Decks, makes the Belcher Matchup much easier and helps a lot against Goblins. So they get their Place in the Sideboard.


But why don't you play ...

Chrome Mox
I had them on my List a long time, but other then the First-Turn Bob, this Deck does not very much with the speed it gains and the Card-Disatvantage is quite huge. It does make the Deck more resistent against LD, so maybe they come back sometimes.

Goyfs
I've tried the Baseruption Variant and I realy Hate the Manabase. 4c just sucks, so when i want to play Goyf, i take Grow...

Stifle
Had them in the Deck a long time, but they just had to go, to make the Space for Counter-Top. Maybe they come back in the Sideboard, when Landstill plays more Elspeth.

Serra Avenger
Without Jitte, it is just not strong enough. Goyfs race it and ther are just to few Creatures it can actually block and survive for Vigilance to realy matter.

Umezawa's Jitte
Of cause i tried them, but they just don't do the Tricks for me. Normaly you have to sac a Creature (getting blockt by Goyfs or so) to get the First counters and this Deck can't handle this. And sometimes you have an empty Board and a Jitte in Hand.

Engineered Plague
They just don't do what they should. With the Exclusion of Faeries, all Tribal Decks can go on to some extend with one Plague on the Board. And you just don't have the time to find a second one.



For me, the Deck runs just fine. It hasn't won a Tournament yet, but with some further Improvements it maybe can get there. Last Placing was 9th out of 46 with a possibility of 6th with better Opp-Score.
Matchups were:
UGw-Grow (2:0)
Survival-Elfs (2:1) [he had one Gameloss for wrong Decklist]
UGw-Grow (2:0)
UGr-Grow (0:2) [This Matchup is nearly unwinnable at the moment]
UWg-Cunning-LS (1:2)
Burn (2:0)

In testing is a Variant with Seerendib Efreet in Place of Infiltrator for more Pressure and a better UGr-Matchup.

[Arsenal]

I'd cut the Lynx for the Serendibs before cutting the Infiltrators. Lynx is incredibly narrow as (a.) Tombstalker flies over it, (b.) Dreadnaught tramples over it for a bunch, and (c.) it only really shines versus Goyf as I doubt you'll be keeping a mana open every turn to regenerate it versus non-Goyf creatures.

Also, running Infiltrators seem to be more of a reason to run some sort of equipment, but I understand deckspace is tight. Possibly cutting Lynx for Serendib or Serra Avenger + Infiltrator would be enough to reconsider Jitte? I don't know.

EDIT: The reason I would run Jitte is because many of our creatures aren't a threat by themselves. Aside from Grunt and Stalker, everyone else is hitting for 1 or 2 points. Jitte makes our Infiltrator a legitmate threat while doubling as removal. Jitte is important, imo.

[Mono_Thematic]

Alot of recent posts have said that this deck is no longer viable. Unfortunately, no onr has stated any specifics, instead falling back on vague reasons like '{card} just doesn't cut it anymore'. Could those of you who have found the deck lacking please what exactly it is that is stopping you, so that the deck cold be tweaked and hopefully revived.
Since it runs WUb (2 of the most competite colors) there are plenty of options available for updating fish for the current meta.
-aggro got ya down -> 4 stp + 2 path to exile + finks(fits the two-for-one aspect of fish's creature base)
-problems with combo -> Orim's chant + duress + unmask
-thesh -> all kinds of graveyard hate

Could elspeth be a viable substitute for jitte, seeing as how jitte has fallen off and the deck could use some repeatable/reach?
Would running Counter-Top with Scepter-Chant provide just too many lock options for the opp. to deal with?
Honestly I don't know. But its worth looking into, but not until we identify the specific problem.
Thanks for any thoughtful responses,
-Mono

[MSC]

The Problem, from my point of view, is, that this Deck a decent Finisher.

It lacks a finisher like Tarmogoyf to finish a Match in 2-3 Rounds once you gain Control like Grow, so the opponent has to much time.
I have done Testings with a lot of different Approaches to this:
- More Creatures: I tested Versions up to 19 Creatures, playing 3 Grunt and MM, Lynx, Bobs and Avengers as 4 of. It was a nice Version, but you loose CB in this Version and this hurts some Matchups (example Loam) like hell.
- Equipments: The natural inclusion, if you have small creatures. And it was nice, when you have a Equipted Creature, you won most of the Time. Problem is when you only have one of them. At least in my List, Equipment have to take the Place of Creatures, meaning, you make it easier for your Opponent, to handle your few threads or just overwhelm you.
- Inclusion of Finishers: Variants with Tarmogoyfs where fast cut, cause the Manabase sucked to much. In the remaining Colors I've tested Tombstalkers, which were huge, but you can't play more than 2 in a List with 4 Confidants.
And i tested Serra Avenger, which never liked. They die easily to Burn, are to small for Vigilance to matter and are not fast enought, for decent Finishers. At the moment I'm testing Serendib Efreets, which are nice 3/4 Flyers and can survive Burn. I will Post Results, when i got more time to test.

On my List as other possible Finishers stand:
- Exalted Angel, which is hard to Cast, but Lifelink is realy nice.
- Dreadnought, which can end the Game in 2 Turns and is easy to fit in the Deck.
- Ethersworn Adjudicator (Conflux): A 4/4 Flyer witha decent Ability for 5 Mana may be good.


Elspeth is an interesting Idea, but i don't know if it is good in this Deck. It screams for Win-More, but maybe i give it a try.
Scepter-Chant is just bad in Fish i think. At least my list is running not even one Spell I would like to imprint in a Scepter. I never could find 6 Slots (2 Scepter + at least 4 Chant or Counterspell) to cut in this Deck.

[Mono_Thematic]

The idea that the deck can't finish seems to be a consistant and real concern. But it doesn't seem like something that should be an insurmountable road-block. As such here is the list I'm considering:

Land:18
4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
3x Tundra
2x Underground Sea
1x Scrubland
2x Plains
1x Island
1x Swamp

Creatures:13
3x Mother of Runes
3x MM
4x Bob
3x Shadowmage Infiltrator

Artifacts:5
2x Jitte
3x Top

Enchantments:4
4x Counterbalance

Instants:12
4x Brainstorm
4x Force
4x Stp

Sorceries:7
4x Thoughtseize
3x Vindicate

Plainswalkers:2
2x Elspeth
Total: 61 - close enough
Why these?
I see Elspeth and Jitte filling the kill-con role, and since both are 'legends' then playing both in low numbers increases your overall chance of drawing at least one, if not both. Plus this deck only runs 13 creatures so Elspeth and whip up some jitte holders as well.

@ MSC
Serendib, bob, fetches, and FoW are going to lead to a quick suicide, especially against any deck running burn. For you Ajani or even Clearwater Goblet could be necessary

Hope this was coherent and maybe a bit thought-provoking
-Mono

[MSC]

Okay, lets have a look over this:

Lands:
I can only play 17 Lands with 6 Cantrips and its still close. 18 was okay with 4 Brainstorms.
Second, play Basics. You always want outs against Blood Moon, Wastelock and so on...

13 Creatures 2 Jitte 2 Elspeth:
Looks good to me, definite worth a try. Maybe you should consider the 3th Infiltrator over the 4th MM, cause they are just better in a lot of Matchups. Of cause Infiltrator is the better Jitte-Carrier too.

Counter-Top:
Play 3 tops. You just want to find on in the first few rounds. If you don't want, consider playing one Enlightened Tutor, wich can also find other usefull things.

Instants and Sorcerys:
This is the part i don't like. Forces, Vindicates and StP are all set and good.
But Counterspell? There are right points, about Daze. But it is really good, at protecting your second Turn Bob / CB. If it still should be no Daze play Spell Snare in this Slot. It's just to late in the Game, that you get to keep 2 Mana open. 1 happens more often and it handles a lot of things.
Duress is the other Part. Yeah, Thoughtsize loose you life, but Duress is dead in so many Matchups, it's just not worth it.

Maybe a list like that:
Land: 18
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Creatures:13
3x Mother of Runes
3x MM
4x Bob
3x Shadowmage Infiltrator

Plainswalkers:2
2x Elspeth

Artifacts & Enchantments:9
2x Jitte
3x Top
4x CB

Spells:19
4x Force
4x Spell Snare
4x Stp
3x Thoughtseize
3x Vindicate



Just a word to Lifeloss: Yeah, Fetching, Bob, Thoughtseize, FoW and so on are hurting. It's right, I've won most of my games with under 5 Life. But it's the price to be payed to get a good Deck. Keeping your life by playing suboptimal Cards will be counterproductive cause you need to control the Board to win.
As an example: You're not the first to suggest going down on Fetchies. But by playing this amount you get 2 Effects: Your Manabase gets Super-Stable (whithout Disruption) cause you always get the Colors you need. AND you get Shuffle-Effects, which make your Counter-Top Engine far more effective. And an effective Counterbalance wins you far more Games as the 2 or 3 Life you can gain from cutting Fetchies.


P.S. My posts seem to get a little to long, i think. :tongue:

[Mono_Thematic]

@MSC: thanks for the critique
My land situation is poor (thanks for catching that). And your opinion of Counterspell maybe valid as well (which is a good thing, cause I'm going to need space for the extra lands.) But if protecting a 2nd turn bob or CB is your goal then wouldn't more targetted discard on 1st turn be better than either Daze or SpellSnare.
Something along the lines of (from my original list):
-4x Counterspell
-2x Duress
-2x Stifle/PoE/ect


+4x Thoughtseize
+2x Land (19 total w/ a deck of 61 cards)
+1x Shadowmage Infiltrator
+1x Top
Wouldn't 6 targeted discard spells and the Mother of Runes be enough to ensure a safe bob (and maybe CB) on 2nd or 3rd turn?
My only problem with this list is that the BLUE is getting blue'ed (only 11 {not counting other FoW)} which is going to make FoW harder (-2x FoW, +2x Unmask? {16 B spells}). Hmmm, its so close.

Dying to know how the Serendib version is working for ya',
-Mono

[b4r0n]

I think that the biggest problem for this deck centers around Goyf, either directly or indirectly. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you either need to a) run Goyf and go up to 4 colors or b) run Tombstalker to have a similar clock. Both options seem pretty viable to me. However, both have problems. If you choose option a, then you weaken your manabase. That's not so good, but not necessarily insurmountable (Thresh is capable of doing it). If you choose option b, then you're faced with the problem of running Confidant, Tombstalker, Force of Will, and Thoughtseize all in the same deck. I'm not sure that there's any good way of getting around that without weakening the deck to some degree, since you'd probably have to cut Confidant or run less than 4 Tombstalkers.

EDIT: Oh right, Jotun Grunt. I suppose that's pretty good too. Still, I think my point stands.

[raharu]

...In the remaining Colors I've tested Tombstalkers, which were huge, but you can't play more than 2 in a List with 4 Confidants...

I've always always always ran 3 Tombstalkers in my fish lists, irrespective of running 4 Confidants. There's no reason not to. If you're running 3 Tops, 4 Ponders, and 4 Brainstorms you should have far more than sufficient manipulation to manage your topdeck and keep Tombstalker from being your reveal.

Besides, the chance of having a Confidant and flipping a Tombstalker or a Force with it are slim to none. It's a very small margin, and not taking that little bit of risk makes the deck less than optimal.

If I were to run a regular Fish build, this is what it would look like:

Creatures: 15
Mother of Runes x4
Dark Confidant x4
Meddling Mage x4
Tombstalker x3

Countermagic: 11
Daze x3
Counterbalance x4
Force of Will x4

Hand Manipulation: 11
Sensei's Divining Top x3
Ponder x4
Brainstorm x4

Other: 6
Swords to Plowshares x4
Jitte x2

Lands: 17
Flooded Strand x3
Polluted Delta x4
Tundra x3
Underground Sea x4
Island x2
Plains x1


A list like that essentially rides on the back of Tombstalker. Keep the board somewhat under control, or at least in a manageable state (Mother of Runes helps with this task immensely. She's like a Gilded Light, an Edict effect, a wall, a Jitte-swinging monster, and a lolCleric all rolled into one neat little mana efficient card). She'll always eat a FoW if it's there, and is the first thing to get targeted with Swords to Plowshares. In aggro-control matches it's a huge resource sink for your opponent, and they're going to want to get rid of it very quickly, making room for you to drop other disruption/ threats/ Counterbalance soft-lock and hit your roll.

But I've always had an interest in Tempo-Fish. While the UGr builds look prettier and are more aggressive, Ubw Tempo-Fish... is Ubw. I hate green...

Something like this could be in order:

Mana Disruption: 8
Stifle x4
Wasteland x4

Removal: 7
Swords to Plowshares x4
Vindicate x3

Action Denial: 18
Thoughtseize x3
Daze x4
Spell Snare x3
Meddling Mage x4
Force of Will x4

Hand Manipulation: 8
Ponder x4
Brainstorm x4

Endgame: 3
Tombstalker x3

Flex Slots: 4
Mother of Runes/ Diabolic Edict x4

Lands: 16
Flooded Strand x3
Polluted Delta x3
Underground Sea x4
Tundra x4
Island x2

It looks really weird, but the basic concept is to control the game through deceleration, spot-remove/ MoR-chump anything relevant, and eventually drop a Tombstalker on their ass. It's control-heavy, but lacks any real sort of late-game in comparison to most decks, so the idea is to just not get there in the first place (or at least to not let the opponent get to that point of resource development), and end the game in a short enough window to minimize outside interference. I'm kinda waffling on the number of Thoughtsiezes (because they were the last slots left. I'd prefer them to be Counterspells, but hay, what can you do?), the number of Tombstalkers (4 seems redundant and insinuates the risk of dead draws, but it's your endgame and you want it fast), and the Vindicates (iDunno... Should we all just give up and play Team America? I think that's the question you have to ask yourself now when you choose to play anything other than Ugr Thrash or TA if it includes Stifles and Wastes. The reason TA comes to mind is that the Vindicates serve as more versatile Sinkholes... iDunno), and the Mages look... cute. Cute isn't always good. It's just a rough draft, though. Needs to be tested.

Now I'm tired, but I still want to address the finisher problem... I'll make it simple, if a bit lacking in argumentative development:

Play Tombstalker. Play 3. Play with a heavier commitment to black. White is for Mage if you want it, Swords to Plowshares, and Vindicate if you want it. UBw Fish is the Fish that's good in this metagame because, even in a Bolt-less environment, your critters still have to block Mongoose, so an ass of <4 either needs to have a ability attached or GTFO, so Serra Avenger isn't up to par :cry: That makes me sad, but it's true, so it needed to be said.

On that note, I'm also thinking of control fish, playing Finkles instead of Bob, Tombstalker, and upwards of 8 removal. Perhaps 4 StP, 3 Diabolic Edict, and 3 Vindicate, something like SpeedStill without the Engineered Explosives. That's sexy :333 Maybe in a tempo shell... iDunno. I'm still tired, so ima stop thinking before I say something stupid like LOLZOMG SPLASH GREEN FOR CHUB TOAD because it'll happen if I keep typing...

Fish come in too many colors/species. My head hurts.

[MSC]

I see no Problem with cutting Daze. I'm planning to switch to Path to Exile after Conflux release, which make Daze worse. Discard may get the Spot, but it may be Spell Snare as well (Blue Count for Force / Better Late-Game).

Tests with Efreet are running and look ok, so far. I will Final-Test the List at 15.02. at a bigger local Tournament. I plan to test Path to Exile as 2/2 Split with Swords there too.
Details will follow afterwards. :smile:


@raharu First List seems nice and testworthy, but i miss my Vindicates. Second List is not playable without a second winoption. TA plays 8 and is struggling with Removal-Heavy-Decks. And Extirpate gives me the Chills with this List.

[raharu]

Can't sleep. Fuck. Pardon anything stupid you read.


I see no Problem with cutting Daze. I'm planning to switch to Path to Exile after Conflux release, which make Daze worse. Discard may get the Spot, but it may be Spell Snare as well (Blue Count for Force / Better Late-Game).

Tests with Efreet are running and look ok, so far. I will Final-Test the List at 15.02. at a bigger local Tournament. I plan to test Path to Exile as 2/2 Split with Swords there too.
Details will follow afterwards. :smile:


@raharu First List seems nice and testworthy, but i miss my Vindicates. Second List is not playable without a second winoption. TA plays 8 and is struggling with Removal-Heavy-Decks. And Extirpate gives me the Chills with this List.

I don't see much reason to play Path, IMHO. There are better removal options in bw that don't reduce the potency of your early-game stack control, if you feel it would. Personally, I think that Daze is a turn 1-3 card, and I don't see a whole lot of reason to play removal within those turns, shy of a balls-out Phyrexian Dreadnought (to which there are other options, and Daze would help here anyway).

It also seems really weird to consider a split between StP and Path since Path gives the opponent a slightly better late-game than you (which Fish lacks already due to it's limited resources, which is why we like, or for some of us, liked, Dark Confidant), and we've already seen the the lifegain from StP, on the opponent's part, is relatively irrelevant.

That second list realllyyyyyyy wants another win condition, and I see no problem shaving off a Ponder and a Counterbalance for Vindicate, and maybe cutting Mage for Thoughtseize, making the deck less white-heavy and more towards black since we want double black for out endgame anyway.

There's really too much goodstuff in Ubw to play it all... I'm going back to the drawing board on the concept of tempo-Fish. Not LD-Fish, but resource-grinding, early-game stasis-inducing control thresh. A secondary threat would be nice... Suggestions are welcome.

[TeKo]

I tested a Grunt in a Tempo Fish build some time ago an really liked him.
You can play him turn 2-3 and have enough cards in GY with 8 cantrips, 4 Waste, 4 Stifle, 4 StP.
But I think 3 Stalker + Grunts aren't that good.

Atm I play Uwb Farie Fish and really like it.
3 Grunts
2-3 Vendilion
3 Blossom
4 Spellstutter

[Hanni]

Lands (18)

Creatures (11)
4 Mother of Runes
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tombstalker

Spells (31)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares

Something like that would seem to be the appropriate Dreadnought-less shell these days. Meddling Mage and Jitte just don't seem to have the power anymore that they once had, at least not maindeck, IMO.

[raharu]

Lands (18)

Creatures (11)
4 Mother of Runes
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tombstalker

Spells (31)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares

Something like that would seem to be the appropriate Dreadnought-less shell these days. Meddling Mage and Jitte just don't seem to have the power anymore that they once had, at least not maindeck, IMO.
This. Maybe shave a slot or two for Vindicates, but it looks really good. Really, Meddling Mage is replaced by Counterbalance in the Loam match, and Aethersworn Canonist in the combo match. Maybe both Aethersworn Canonist and Mage, but not Mage over Canonist. Which makes me sad because I've always had a tendency to play Mage in Fish just 'cuz.

On a sidenote, couldn't Shadowmage Infiltrator be better than Confidant? When the manabase is under duress I can see where 2cc>3cc, but being blue is a plus, and having a draw engine that doesn't eat a hole in your life total and has a bit of combat utility seems good. It's also a 3cc for Counterbalance, but with only 4 cards at that slot in the deck, it's more of an afterthought that makes you want to run Vindicate. Or Back to Basics... Oshit, back to the drawing board.

[MSC]

On a sidenote, couldn't Shadowmage Infiltrator be better than Confidant? When the manabase is under duress I can see where 2cc>3cc, but being blue is a plus, and having a draw engine that doesn't eat a hole in your life total and has a bit of combat utility seems good.

Hmm,
Infiltrator is worse as a Draw-Engine cause he is more Conditional. He comes down a whole Turn later and he must connect to draw the Card. This is especialy bad against Black Decks (Tombstalker or B/W Sui) and Decks packing Mishras Factory (Landstill, Loam, Dreadstill).
He is, on the other Hand, better when playing more High-CC Spells. I thought about a Stalker-Heavy Fish-Variant once, with a Creature-Base like this:
4 Tombstalker
4 Shadowmage Infiltrator
2 Shriekmaw
3 Spectral Lynx
2 Jötun Grunt

Maybe someone has a little Time to test this.


To my testings:
The tests with the Efreet are still running. Results are different based on the Opponents Deck. It's just great against Grow or Rock, where you need the pressure. But it is not nice against Boros (Can't play him when you are low on life) and Loam (Maze of Ith sucks).
Still I think it is overall better in my build then Infiltrator, so it will further tested.

Next weekend will have 2 Tournaments in the Area, one small with 8-12 players and a larger one with 32++. I plan to be at both of them and will test my newest Build of Fish.
It includes:
- 3 Serendib Efreet
- Swords/Path as 2/2 Split
- 1-of Ethersworn Adjudicator

So stay tuned for Test-Results. :wink:

[Mono_Thematic]

Just some knee -jerk responses that came to mind when I read your post
1) If the Efreet is causing to much life loss vs. burn-heavy decks than you could sub it out for Tower Gargoyle (Pros: no life loss and +1 power, Cons: +1 cost and artifact sub-type)
2) For more versitile removal than Ethersworn Adjudicator you could try Pentarch Paladin, tho it is awfully :w: heavy

[MSC]

Tower Gargoyle was in test when Alara came out but it is just awfull. Being a 4/4 Flying without drawback is nice, but beeing an Artifact isn't. Most Decks board Gris versus CB and getting your Finisher Hit with it, isn't nice. The only nice effect is, he reveals for 4 in CB, makeing him good vs. Landstill. But it makes him worse in most matchups, so I`ve discarded him.

Pentarch Paladin isn't playable as I only run 4 White-Mana-Sources. Also he is only a 3/3 Creature, making him easy to remove for a 5-Mana-Creature.
His Ability isn't fearsome either, making him unable, to remove CB and Tarmo at the same time. Ethersworn Adjudicator is clearly better in this Spot and it's not settled that he's worth the Spot.

[Rascal]

Hi,

because Fish is my most favourite deck archetype I would like to share some suggestions with you. First of all, maybe I should say that I am from Central Europe, so metage here is maybe little different from the US´s.


I try take UWB Fish into competitive direction again. My version is slightly different from the most of your decks, due to my meta and due my diverse look on what and how Fish should play in nowadays conditions.

I try explain what I mean.

I play something like this.

Lands(18):

3x Tundra
3x U.Sea
1x Scrubland
4x F. Strand
4x P.Delta
1x Island
1x Plains
1x Swamp

That´s pretty obvious I think. I don´t play 17 lands, because I don´t play SDT/CB combo and moreover 17 looks too suicidal for me, too many muligans, too many manascrewed games.

Creatures(19):

4x Dark Confidant
3x Shadowmage Infiltrator
4x Meddling Mage
3x Spectral Lynx
3x Mother of Runes
2x Tombstalker

Explanation: In UWB D. Confidant is a "must". No literaly, but I almost never want another card in his place. EVER it is a "must counter", or Sword card. Even with "only" 4 Brainstorms and 4 Ponders we have enough deck manipulation to not have us eating alive by D.Confidant.

S. Infiltrator - if is in your meta too many black creatures, skip it. If not? He is awesome. Another must deal card, another card drawing. That means less counters, swords etc for your another played cards. And Infiltrator+Confidant together is HUGE card advantage.

4 Meddling M. - should I say more? I think he perfect fit in Fish strategy and what this deck wants to do. Simply forbid playing the most annoying cards in particular matchup - P.Deed, E.Explosives, combo cards, Geese and Goyf if you don´t see you S.Lynx.....whatever you want.

Spectral Lynx - I was hard thinking about this card if it enough to play it- but - yes, it is. In fact, geese and Goyfs are everywhere. You have to be able to deal with creatures. Lynx can block it all day long, for another ugly threat it has regeneration - however keep B open can be sometimes disturbing, but never mind - we have at least the possibility to do this.
Another option to solve Goyf/yard problem is to play Jotun, but that is not nice combo if we want to play Tombstalker. Jotun is "multi-purpose", but who cares - that is what SB is for (T.Crypt)

Mother - great protector you our utility cards - especially MM´s and card drawers. 3 are enough. If we play 4th we have dead draws.

...and the last thing...

Tombstalker - we absolutely need big, fat finisher - he perfectly fit. I never has problem with running only two with a lots of card drawing.

Utility cards(23):
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x FoW
3x Daze
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Vindicate

8 cantrips - metagame is shifting, quickening - we absolutely need keep up. Good for deck manipulating (Confidant).
Fow+Daze - always played and always will be. 3 Daze are enough - the 4th is a dead draw and that is we won´t.
Swords - ..........
Vindicate - such a versatile card! We can crash what hit the land through counters, another creature solution, can hit land...



Why I don´t play SDT/CB?

I don´t think that this the right choice for this deck. Too many slots dedicated ....dedicated for what? If I try it, I often saw my in position with deck that have almost whole core as a black Thresh, but with worse creatures. Your creatures is almost every time smaller than others, they only have some cute ability (card drawing, protection, card deniing...) - and this soft lock doesn´t work for us. Threshold has big, fat, or shroud creatures....that isn´t our situation.

SB look like....let´s say...(it changing) :))

3x Pithing Needle (of course EE, P.Deed, recursing lands etc.)
3x E.Plague ( in my meta counter-slivers rising up due to its succes, are everywhere, I expect return of goblins - especially RB version)
3x Tormod´s Crypt
2x Thoughtseize
4x Chill

I´m glad if I hear your reactions.
Have a great day. And sorry for my Eglish - works on this :o))

[MSC]

With Full 4 of Ponder and Brainstorm 17 Lands are no Problem at all. But 18 can be played as well.

19 Creatures are Numbers, nearly enough for an Aggro-Deck. You should then play more aggressive Creatures. Try changing Mothers to Jötun Grunts and maybe 1-2 Equipments.

The Rest of the Maindeck looks good, but the SB looks strange...
3x Pithing Needle: No Discussion here
3x Tormod´s Crypt: Is okay, but I believe Relic is better in this Spot.
2x Thoughtseize: Could be 3, but okay so long...
3x E.Plague 4x Chill: But this? Especialy against Sliver the first Plage does absolutly nothing. It's not really better against Goblins. And with only 3 you will not find a secound one in Time. Chill isn't cool neither. Making things more Expensive is okay, but it doesn't stop your opponent from resolving his Spells. I would recommend to play Hydroblast against Goblins/Burn and Engineered Explosives against Sliver.

[Arsenal]

I'd run Grunt over MoR. Relying on 2 Tombstalker to seal the deal is risky, and your 2/* guys, without running equipment, aren't going to be swinging for lethal that often.

[MSC]

So, I'm back from the first Tournament. We had only 9 people, but it was nevertheless a nice Tournament.

I played this List here:
// 19 Lands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp

//15 Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
3 Spectral Lynx
3 Serendib Efreet
3 Jötun Grunt
1 Shadowmage Infiltrator
1 Ethersworn Adjudicator

//7 Permanents
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance

//21 Spells
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
3 Vindicate

Sideboard:
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Meddling Mage
3 Pithing Needles
3 Perish
4 Hydroblast


In my 4 Games, I played against:
Control Loam with Intuition 2:0
Nice Match. First Game lasted 35min, where i had to Fight against Tabernacle and Wastlands, trying to beat my opponent, who was behind 2 Maze of Ith. Efreet really sucks here, cause you can't put him on the field without dieing.
Second Game he had to take Mulligan to 4.
RGw-Zoo 0:2
Normaly not a bad Matchup, but in Game 1 I had some Manaproblems while my Opponent puts one Creature after the other on the board.
Second Game I had a Counterbalance and a Perish in my Hand, while beeing low on life. He casts 3 Kird Ape, after seeing that i had nothing for 1 on Top of my Library.
Canadian Threshold 1:2
First Game looks fine, but i had to kill my own Efreet to survive and got killed shortly afterwards.
Second Game was mine thanks to Perish. Killing every Kreature in his Deck is nice...
Third Game was a close one, but in the End a lonly Mongoose got me...
GWgr Survival 2:1
First Game i just have every Answer for his Spells.
In the Second Game I use my Relic to early (removed Squee), making it possible for him to recover.
Game 3 he is stuck on 2 Lands to long, to do something.


Okay, ending 2:2 is not a very good result and I'm not happy with my Decklist either.

Path to Exile is great! But playing more than 2 is to much Land-Advantage for the Opponent. 2/2 Split works really well.
Adjudicator is still in tests, but i can think of keeping him as a 1-Of.
Serendib Efreet didn't make the cut. With Fish you to often stabilize, when you are low on life. A Creature with a Life-Drawback isn't the thing to fight back from there. I will discard this Idea from here on.


Still unsure what I play tomorrow at Hassloch. Let's see... :smile:

[MSC]

So, the Report for Sunday is still missing.
I changed back the Creaturebase to Tombstalkers for this:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Spectral Lynx
2 Tombstalker
2 Jötun Grunt
2 Shadowmage Infiltrator
1 Ethersworn Adjudicator
The Rest of the Deck just stays the same.

Sadly it wasn't my day at all. In 6 Games I played:
UGr-Grow with Stifle, Waste and CB 1:2
This Match was a really close one. First Game he screws my Manabase and Second, i just shut him out with CB.
Third Game goes on forever and come in Timeout when I am on 2 Life and him on 1. Had to Vindicate my own Bob. If I had known, that a Relic was on Top, i would have won. So he's able to stall and wins in the last extra-Turn with a lucky Bolt from the Top.
Elfes without Survival, but with Wastelands 1:2
First Game he wins, which is just normal in this Matchup. But Game 2 I have Perish and make the 6 to 1 Trade, from which he cannot recover.
Third Game I Mull to 5 and run directly in a Wasteland. Stuck on 2 Mana there is just no way to win...
RB-Affinity 0:2
First Game he has 3 Frogmites, which he all puts to the Table and his Worker on Round 2. Having only Infiltrator as my only Creature I just got stomped to the ground. Game 2 he is Screw on 1 Land, Managing to just play Worker + Frogmite. I play Lynx, Vindicate his Land and drop Bob to close this Game. But my Bad Luck kicks in and I reveal Tombstalker and Force the next 2 Turns, just Dying from 13 f***ing Damage!
Mono-B Budget 2:0
This Matchup is totaly Dominated by Counterbalance.
UWb-Landstill 0:2
Another bad Matchup. First Game Humilty + 2 Factories just wins, when you don't see a counter the whole Game, and your Vindicates just don't reolve.
Game 2 he boards in CB against me. WTF? The whole thing, CB does is Countering my Cantrips with laying Top on his Library. Sadly i cant't use this to my Advantage, cause I'm totally flooded and make a Play-Error against CB, allowing him to Counter my Pithing Needle. Sucks...
UWb-Landstill 1:1
Nothing to say on this one. Sitting on the Second to Last Table we use more time Trash-Talking than actual playing.


What a Day. Getting one Bad Matchup after the other sure is hard. Loosing cause your Deck has a bad day as well is just crap.

I think of switching of from Fish at the Moment. Our Meta is just to infested with Threshold. On the 35 Player Tournament there were 11 Threshold + 2 other Decks playing Counterbalance.

[centurion8]

As my legacy testing partner moved about 8 hours away I haven't played much legacy in the last year, but a couple questions about the current deck..

RE: Ethersworn Adjudicator: Isn't a 3rd Tombstalker just simply better than this guy as a finisher? A 4/4 for 5 mana, with clunky and expensive abilities doesn't really seem like legacy material to me. (I honestly don't even see this guy getting play in Type 2)

Why isn't Serra Avenger played anymore? Especially in decks running equipment (especially Jitte), she's an absolute house, and it seems that R-splash thresh isn't at the peak of popularity it was around and following GP-Columbus making her less of a liability.

[MSC]

Ethersworn Adjudicator: Isn't a 3rd Tombstalker just simply better than this guy as a finisher? A 4/4 for 5 mana, with clunky and expensive abilities doesn't really seem like legacy material to me.
Tombstalker cost 3 Mana more, making him the worst Topdeck in Dark Confidant possible. Yeah, he is easier to cast, but he is just a Beatstick to finish games. So he is not good when the opoonent Races you.
One the other Hand we have the Adjudicator. Needing 5 Mana to be cast, he is a 1-Of at Maximum. Thats no question. But his Abillities are not irrelevant. At worst he is 4/4 Vigilance, but most time, you get the 6. Mana to just Attack and use his Ability afterwards. He's nice in CB-Stalls to...
Still he is VERY debatable. Tests are still running and will continue for a while, cause it is hard to evaluate 1-Ofs.



Why isn't Serra Avenger played anymore? Especially in decks running equipment (especially Jitte), she's an absolute house, and it seems that R-splash thresh isn't at the peak of popularity it was around and following GP-Columbus making her less of a liability.
Cause he is weak without the Equipment! With a body of 3 he is an easy Burn-Target and can only block very few Creatures played in Legacy, making its Vigilance near worthless.
I was never happy with Jitte Maindeck, but if you plan to play at least 2, you can definitly play him. If you want to play more than 2 Avenger, consider a third Equipment (SoFI) for better support.

[Hanni]

Until Wizards can print some large splashable white and black (and maybe blue) creatures, Fish isn't going to be viable in the traditional sense these days. Small beaters with additional abilities cannot push the red zone effectively without Jitte, and even then are still matched in power by guys like Dreadnought, Tombstalker, and Tarmogoyf. Running small guys + Jitte takes up alot of maindeck space, causing the deck to be vulnerable to CounterTop without being able to run CounterTop itself.

I'm not trying to stifle innovation, but everytime I look at this thread when I see some new posts, people just keep beating a dead horse. The true evolution from Fish is either Dreadnought Fish, or UBw Control.

For example, if you take the post I made a short while back, drop the 4 Mother of Runes and 4 add Vindicate, you have a very solid UBw Control deck. As far as Dreadnought Fish goes, there is another thread called Dreadnought Fish to discuss that archtype already.

However, for those still deadset in the small disruptive weenie + Jitte plan, Tidehollow Sculler should be an automatic inclusion. In a deck like that, I'd probably run something like this:

4 Mother of Runes
4 Dark Confidant
4 Meddling Mage
4 Tidehollow Sculler

4 Umezawa's Jitte

... and then whatever else you can fit in there.

[klaus]

This is the list I'm currently testing - most choices are self-explanatory, I guess.
I features a quite oldschool core and some TA/DeadGuy imports - hope u like it.

On no FOW: with 4 Vindicates there are very few must-counters - combo.dec being the exception - but then Disrupts shine in G2/3 (and my MU should be favorable anway).
General/specific input is appreciated.


KingCongs...*äh*: WinCons:
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Jotun Grunt

Disruption (no FOW!!!):
4 Vindicate
3 Spell Snare
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Smother
3 Sinkhole
3 Stifle

Other:
4 Brainstorm
1 Sensei's Divining Top

Land:
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Scrubland
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

SB:
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Energy Flux
1 Pithing Needle
1 Threads of Disloyalty
2 Chill
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Engineered Plague
3 Disrupt
-
I like it.

[MSC]

Why not? I would cut the Singles, namely Top and Smother, cause you won't find them when needed. Play the Full Land Disruption Package with 4. Stifle and Sinkhole in this Place.
Creatures are really small nevertheless.

Only concern is, that Combo really wrecks this Deck. No Way, to prevent First Turn Kills, and your Counter-Package isn't really fearfull for them, cause you have no Hard-Counter.
Aggro seems to be no fun either.