[Metagame] San Diego

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Alright, so I know that people here have previously worked on their own Zoo and White Weenie variants. More recently I'm interested in the powerful new B/g Reanimator and 4cc Landstill builds we've seen. So, someone spill the beans. What's up with this metagame? Who's behind the decks?

[Koby]

The team behind the SD decks are mostly T1 players (Nick Trudei + others). There is also a store that hosts Friday nite weekly Legacy tournaments. However, this is entirely a local metagame and no one ever travels out of it. I hear there's alot of random decks that play and that throws the metagame off. Remember, this replaces the FNM for this store. Average attendance is between 25-40 people.

[MattH]

Wait, what B/g reanimator deck is this?

[JACO]

Metagame: you'll see any and every deck here, including all of the most played ones (Goblins, Threshhold, Solidarity, IGGy Pop, BW variants), as well as decks that had been left for dead by most, and instead built to actually be playable (ATS, Landstill, Psychatog, RAfinnity, infinite Fish variants, Charbelcher, BG Reanimator, infinite Zoo and aggro-control variants, 43lands.dec, Scepter Chant, BW Braids, etc.), as well as a few random beginner decks.

Turnout: anywhere between 20-50+ every Friday night, probably with an average of 30-35 people.

Where: Game Empire, in San Diego; Artifex also holds Legacy tournaments occasionally, but they are pretty small and ignored for the most part.

Designers: there are a lot of what you'd call 'rogue' designers out here (just as many other places, I'm sure), and many have different philosophies when it comes to card selection, deck theory, etc. To answer your question in particular, Rodrigo Gonzalez (who came out to the East Coast a few months ago to win some of your prizes) has been the main driving force behind the BG Reanimator deck, and others have picked the deck up. Nick Trudeau and I made the BHWC 4C Landstill that you see doing well almost every time it is played (based on a similar concept by Mike Torrisi), and others have picked the deck up as well. I started playing 2-land Charbelcher before people knew what the hell was up, and Jerry Bonner picked up the deck and took it under his wing and did really well with it, tuning it weekly, and others have picked the deck up. Mike Torrisi and Chris Montero were the primary designers of the original 'San Diego Zoo,' but I don't think either of them play Magic anymore. Dean Eckenroth, Mike Anderson, Kevin Trombley, Justin Rand, Jerry Bonner, Andres Gomez and more are just a few of the local designers that come off the top of my mind.

San Diego has a fun metagame for a couple of reasons. If people tend to see the same things making top 8 week after week (4C Landstill, Goblins, Charbelcher, Solidarity, ATS, and Reanimator come to mind first), they either tend to copy these decks, or everybody seems to pack hate for the decks. It really changes from week to week, and even the kids who bring a janky deck one week will learn from their mistakes, and instantly play something better within 1-2 weeks (either a new deck, or make a lot of tweaks to their existing deck).

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

So, is there a reason that San Diegans (or whatever the term would be) don't post on the Source more often? I know that when he was knocking me out in the final round of the Swiss to top 8 at the Mana Leak Open, Gonzalez lamented that people on the Source/Mana Drain tend to dismiss new deck ideas, and that he had been told his build, for instance, was "strictly worse than OrzhovReanimator". When Northern Virginia was just getting into the scene, though, we viewed the initial dismissal of any and all of our ideas as a challenge more than anything. Of course, we seem to have a lot more combative personalities than a lot of other metagames. I'm generally dissapointed that we don't see more tournament reports and threads on deck developments from the area, though, because it does seem like a powerful and dynamic metagame.


Matt: http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4189 It's post 5

[JACO]

I think more people from San Diego don't post for a couple of reasons.

1) The first is that if their deck or idea(s) are posted, they are often ignored, or told that they're suboptimal or suck. And these are people who have been playing a certain deck for a long time and tweaked it until they've had repeated success with it. Rodrigo Gonzalez, for example, has played mono-black Reanimator, black-red Reanimator, black-green Reanimator, and black-white Reanimator. He typically builds his versions much different than I would build mine, but his strategy seems to be very effective (for example, eschewing the Duress + Cabal Therapy plan, in favor of more Reanimation spells like Animate Dead, some removal, etc.). When he posts a thread on here or TMD, his posts are often ignored or the resulting posts are just so worthless it doesn't make it very worthwhile to post here.
2) Another reason I've seen that people don't post more here is because some of the 'help' or ideas that are posted in their threads are just awful. For example, the San Diego Zoo thread (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2638) that was originally posted by a San Diegan David Hernandez just morphed into 22 pages of mostly bad suggestions. I never saw another version of the deck in that entire thread that was any better than the original, and that was after a whopping 22 pages!

I know I can't speak for everybody out here, but I think the prevailing sentiment out here is kind of like "why should I even post anything on The Source if all I get is either flak or awful suggestions?"

My primary reasons for not posting too often are a lack of time, and a belief that I'm not going to get very good help developing a deck. This is why I've never really bothered to post anything about the version of 4C BHWC Landstill, BHWC DredgeATog, or the version of UWR Scepter Chant that I created, just to cite a few sample decks. I condsider myself a pretty good deck builder and engineer, and there's only so far the logical progression of development can take a deck after all of our testing. So if I were to post something on here, it would either be to share it (not likely with all the blatant and quick dismissals of ideas I often see), or to seek ways to improve it (again, not likely, because I don't think most of the suggestions here are very good). This doesn't mean I don't value what The Source has to offer, and think there is some scattered wisdom here or there, but I just think I can develop a deck better by testing with my team for a week than by posting a deck on here and reading the replies for a month. I don't need to challenge someone on some online forums, because frankly I'd rather just beat them down when we play in person, and that's usually what happens. ; )

[Complete_Jank]

I would like to say that I agree with what JACO posted.

Many of the players here that play have moved in from Type 1. Type 1/Vintage has practically died locally as far as tourneys, and thus the next best thing is Type 1.5/Legacy.

I think the tournament structure has much to do with it too. The larger the group of players the lower finish the pay out drops to. It isn't a tourney designed to pay just the top 2, 4, or 8. Also, cost of the Tourney is $6, and the pay out is in store credit. We play with a more fun attitude than I must win attitude.

The decks that are designed locally tend to be more resilient towards every type of deck, even decks that are considered dead elsewhere, because everything is played here. Play a deck here for about a month or two and you know most all the match-ups.


Had BHWC 4cLandstill been posted before it had won any tourneys it would have been rejected and people would have remarked that Landstill is dead, and can't win, or people would have mentioned it would never work because the manabase is too shaky. Heck after it was posted people still remarked how to make it better.


I am one of the few that post here on a regular basis that plays here in San Diego, and I post to remark about changing’s to an ongoing deck or decks that I have designed in the past. The attitude on not just this forum but many others is not accepting something new.

Decks that are played out here aren't played in the sheer numbers that many other decks in other locations are. When players from out here travel and play, we are playing probably the only deck like it at a tourney. Goblin, Threshold, and Solidarity Decks if played as a one of in a tourney would do well, but not make constant top 8's like they do now. They are considered the top three decks because they consistently make top 8 elsewhere, but most because of the sheer amount of players playing the deck.

[Peter_Rotten]

I'll just chime in quickly. VA decks were, at first, dismissed by the traditional East Coast (NY - Cuse and Albany) as janky crap. Then the VA crew started using their janky crap to take NY prizes. Combine that fact with VA's tenacious forum attitude, "the Source" metagame was forced to adept and recognize innovation from another area.

Unfortunately San Diego generally doesn't have the luxury of coming to East Coast tournies to prove their decks in a varied meta. It is simply not pratical for them to "put up or shut up." But I really wish they could - I'd sure like to see a big shift to the LMF.

[Anarky87]

To me, it seems like they have put up. It may not be on the East coast, but the fact of the matter is that BHWC Landstill has taken 4th at the Legacy Champs plus 8th and 9th at the D4D, all three times piloted by Nick Trudeau. That seems like a pretty big achievement for a deck that was labelled dead for the longest time.

[Complete_Jank]

I'll just chime in quickly. VA decks were, at first, dismissed by the traditional East Coast (NY - Cuse and Albany) as janky crap. Then the VA crew started using their janky crap to take NY prizes. Combine that fact with VA's tenacious forum attitude, "the Source" metagame was forced to adept and recognize innovation from another area.

Unfortunately San Diego generally doesn't have the luxury of coming to East Coast tournies to prove their decks in a varied meta. It is simply not pratical for them to "put up or shut up." But I really wish they could - I'd sure like to see a big shift to the LMF.


That isn't exactly true.

We do travel out to the East. We went to Gencon, we went to Star City Games, we went to the Mana Leak Open. We travel to larger tourneys that can possibly pay for a trip of that extent, or is large enough to warrent a trip. Also, some of us have family out east, and will attend local tourneys if we are in town or near by. I use "WE" in a general sense to cover San Diego players.

I've played against Anwar and Anusien as far as I am aware of.

I grew up in PA and vist regularly, so I know driving between VA to NY is about 6-8 depending where you are going to and from. That is similar to us traveling to San Fransisco, Las Vegas, Phoenix, or Tucson.

I do believe there is talk about players from San Diego taking the trip to Columbus. Maybe if you show up there we can share a beer, if you are 21 of course.

[Lanfeng]

well to be honest our metagame sucks, we have all the rogue and dead technology running around and the tier decks aren't getting played and thats fine because rather then a tournament that is super competative half the people are actually playing a game for ...**GASP** entertainment, and they don't find just winning entertaining because the way a lot of us see it, anybody can win, but they take pride in winning on their own with their own pet deck. So our metagame sucks. Most of the rogue tech that we are using isn't tuned to beat goblins solidarity and thresh, its a lot more versatile. I can't speak for anybody else here but I'm pretty sure if you take half the decks that top 8 at our little friday tournaments and you take them to columbus they will indeed suck.

but to answer your question: What's up with this metagame? nothing, its diverse and different and each person who brings a deck has built in with the matchup with at least one of the top three in mind (which is mainly why they have limited success) Who's behind the decks? zoo, reanimator and landstill has been explained, I believe Dean Eckenroth was the one who innovated throbbing pink weenie

I'm might take the trip to Columbus, but I probably won't be playing anything rogue (unless of course if justin rand has something cooking that might be good)

[Complete_Jank]

well to be honest our metagame sucks, we have all the rogue and dead technology running around and the tier decks aren't getting played and thats fine because rather then a tournament that is super competative half the people are actually playing a game for ...**GASP** entertainment, and they don't find just winning entertaining because the way a lot of us see it, anybody can win, but they take pride in winning on their own with their own pet deck. So our metagame sucks. Most of the rogue tech that we are using isn't tuned to beat goblins solidarity and thresh, its a lot more versatile. I can't speak for anybody else here but I'm pretty sure if you take half the decks that top 8 at our little friday tournaments and you take them to columbus they will indeed suck.

but to answer your question: What's up with this metagame? nothing, its diverse and different and each person who brings a deck has built in with the matchup with at least one of the top three in mind (which is mainly why they have limited success) Who's behind the decks? zoo, reanimator and landstill has been explained, I believe Dean Eckenroth was the one who innovated throbbing pink weenie

I'm might take the trip to Columbus, but I probably won't be playing anything rogue (unless of course if justin rand has something cooking that might be good)


I disagree. Solidarity, is rare, yet makes appearences. Matter of fact, I know someone that will soon be playing it on a regular basis once he gets the last few cards.

Threshold is played about every other week.

Goblins is played practically every week by at least one player.

Gro has been played recently.


As for how we design decks. I know that every deck that I design is first designed to beat the top 3 decks: Goblins, Solidarity, and Threshold. After that it is fined tuned to beat everything else. Even though I rarely face those three decks, if I see one at the local tourney, it isn't a loss.

In play testing we test our decks against those three decks for the most part, and any other that we feel need special testing. Nick and I play tested BHWC 4c Landstill against B/W Pikula before we went to Virginia for the D4D's. Because we expected to see a lot of those type of decks. and the play testing results, the SB was changed to improve a match-up that was before unwinable.

[Lanfeng]

Well a lot of the tier three are choked down in our metagame because whenever Rod is in the room everybody has hate for reanimator and thresh as splash damage, combo normally gets a lot of hate because of the increase in Iggy pop players and other kinds of combo (belcher, random rogue combo) which hates solidarity (but solidarity's inaccessibility is actually whats holding it down) and goblins just gets hated because nobody enjoys losing to goblins. so on a given day anybody can take a tier one deck (say goblins) and just be annihilated because everybody that day was playing a deck with goblins in mind even though these decks would be trashed by the other top tier decks they succeed because of the limited showing of top tier decks. There are many things that attribute to the diversity in our metagame.

1) general aversion to net-decking
2) The pride in playing a rogue deck
3) The pride in being capable of winning every goblins matchup even though your deck sucks against thresh and solidarity
4) The general low attendence of tier 1 decks
5) The inaccessibility of solidarity and also the challenge to play it.
6) and thus the absence of solidarity or other resilient combo

so its just a few people piloting the top 3 and a bunch of people playing their own homebrew or a 'dead' deck.

Also the special occurences where a great deck pops out (4c landstill which has really solid matchups witht he top 3) it happens not just because of the deck but because of the player. 4c landstill has been around in sd for about as long as I can remember and these guys test it a lot, somebody can't just pick up the deck and win a tournament, and a lot of people have probably been extremely frustrated trying to succeed with say UG madness or 4c landstill, so they just go ahead and continue playing the solid tier deck that they've tested only because they know its good and they've had it forever.

and sorry I was coming across a little bit strong there, our metagame has a limited showing and limited success of tier1 decks, but basically few of the very successful decks in our metagame cannot accurately predict how they will do in the larger tournaments.

[Complete_Jank]

Well a lot of the tier three are choked down in our metagame because whenever Rod is in the room everybody has hate for reanimator and thresh as splash damage, combo normally gets a lot of hate because of the increase in Iggy pop players and other kinds of combo (belcher, random rogue combo) which hates solidarity (but solidarity's inaccessibility is actually whats holding it down) and goblins just gets hated because nobody enjoys losing to goblins. so on a given day anybody can take a tier one deck (say goblins) and just be annihilated because everybody that day was playing a deck with goblins in mind even though these decks would be trashed by the other top tier decks they succeed because of the limited showing of top tier decks. There are many things that attribute to the diversity in our metagame.

1) general aversion to net-decking
2) The pride in playing a rogue deck
3) The pride in being capable of winning every goblins matchup even though your deck sucks against thresh and solidarity
4) The general low attendence of tier 1 decks
5) The inaccessibility of solidarity and also the challenge to play it.
6) and thus the absence of solidarity or other resilient combo

so its just a few people piloting the top 3 and a bunch of people playing their own homebrew or a 'dead' deck.

Also the special occurences where a great deck pops out (4c landstill which has really solid matchups witht he top 3) it happens not just because of the deck but because of the player. 4c landstill has been around in sd for about as long as I can remember and these guys test it a lot, somebody can't just pick up the deck and win a tournament, and a lot of people have probably been extremely frustrated trying to succeed with say UG madness or 4c landstill, so they just go ahead and continue playing the solid tier deck that they've tested only because they know its good and they've had it forever.

and sorry I was coming across a little bit strong there, our metagame has a limited showing and limited success of tier1 decks, but basically few of the very successful decks in our metagame cannot accurately predict how they will do in the larger tournaments.

1) I'll say for the most part, players here in San Diego refuse to use net decks.
2) Goes with #1
3) Since Goblins is the only Tier 1 deck they really need to worry about then that is fine.
4) This is because of the dislike for net decking and lack of Solidarity.
5) Solidarity is not fun to play or play against. Those of us that would choose to play it would much rather play something else and end up with the same record most likely.
6) There is plenty of Combo, just not Solidarity.


I think San Diego's Meta is more friendlier to a Control deck. A few Aggro decks pop up and are successful, but for the most part Control wins.

It doesn't have to be Blue control. There are plenty of B & B/W control decks including mine.


I think because of our Meta, decks designed here tend to have a much better use of the sideboard.

[Lanfeng]

sure theres plenty of combo but all belcher has are duresses and sometimes therapies, iggy pop has nothing, and chantstick is really the only combo deck with any protection

[AnwarA101]

I'll just chime in quickly. VA decks were, at first, dismissed by the traditional East Coast (NY - Cuse and Albany) as janky crap. Then the VA crew started using their janky crap to take NY prizes. Combine that fact with VA's tenacious forum attitude, "the Source" metagame was forced to adept and recognize innovation from another area.


True story.

The success of decks like BWHC Landstill should only encourage your input. It doesn't matter what people initially think, but rather what they think after you've shown them that your decks are actually good. I lost to Nick Trudeau playing Landstill at the Duel for Duals and while I don't like Landstill I'm still impressed that deck was able to beat me given that I was playing wasteland and sinkhole and he was able to beat me with a deck playing 4 colors. Don't be discouraged the doubters will always be around. Your input is always appreciated.

[UrDraco]

I am a San Diego player and I would have to say one nig reason for the lack of Tier 1 decks is that they aren't made for such a varied metagame. I have seen UGw Thresh go 0-3 drop, as well as gobo's go 0-4. Of the three tier 1 the best overall performer would have to be Solidarity but now that Tony isn't here nobody plays it. When people with thresh or goblins do so badly they are forced to try to think of something different to try. Goblins shows up more often than not just because it is a budget deck that can beat BHWC landstill and all the little kids can get goblins really easily.

I agree completely with JACO though that typically people from SD don't post here because we would rather just discuss our decks at Game Empire and get better/less hatefull advise. I am quite excited about Columbus though. I am going to moving to North Carolina soon but I will be one of the people to represent SD at Columbus.

btw: lanny, are you the one arguing with mike anderson, if not who are you?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I don't know what I can tell you but that everyone on the Source isn't a huge dick. Of course, them as are are far more likely to jot down a reply without thought, which usually involves making the deck "suck less". Putting your info up to let other people play test the deck and try it out would increase communication in the format overall, though. It would also help with playtesting results to have more insight from those that play the deck regularly.

[Complete_Jank]

I don't know what I can tell you but that everyone on the Source isn't a huge dick. Of course, them as are are far more likely to jot down a reply without thought, which usually involves making the deck "suck less". Putting your info up to let other people play test the deck and try it out would increase communication in the format overall, though. It would also help with playtesting results to have more insight from those that play the deck regularly.

Take for example the final post in this thread: http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4784

Like I mentioned earlier, I probably posts the most here from San Diego. I am very out-spoken, and sometimes that brings down a wrath from the Mods.

I took a Deck that I have been working on since Small Pox was printed, and moved the final version to Open Legacy Discussion so that anyone that had questions could ask, as the deck is finalized and solid, unlike the MUC thread where they are continue to make changes. The thread is now locked. The Deck was actually a change from a deck that has proved successful for more than a year. Ask almost anyone that plays in San Diego, and they'll tell you the strength of the deck.

The Mods here on average are younger than 20 years old for the most part, and when you add that with many of the dicks on the site, it doesn't provide an environment that is good for posting new decks, because many of the dicks are mods or are friends of mods.

I don't post here looking for much help with a deck, I mainly post to share the results of what I find works, but I try things that are mentioned on here that seem somewhat logical at times though.

I also posted a Survival Deck awhile back that has better than 60/40 with Goblins, and has better than 75/25 against Solidarity. Match-up vs Threashold was slightly worse than 50/50 though.

I'd say that San Diego is a breading ground for new deck designs, and why should we share with people that won't appriciate the decks.

[Zilla]

The Mods here on average are younger than 20 years old for the most part, and when you add that with many of the dicks on the site, it doesn't provide an environment that is good for posting new decks, because many of the dicks are mods or are friends of mods.
Only two out of eight of our mods are below the age of 21. Three of the mods here are older than you are, including myself. The average age of our moderators is in fact 23. It's possible they just seem like dicks to you because they have little tolerance for your self-adulating bullshit pontification, but that's just a guess.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

It's possible they just seem like dicks to you because they have little tolerance for your self-adulating bullshit pontification, but that's just a guess.

Quite.

I'm not sure you should expect a group hug, a cookie, or anything other than intense criticism and scrutiny when you post a deck claiming nothing but positive match-ups(sorry- except for ATS). That's not an issue of people being dicks(PR was being pretty reasonable about it), that's you being naive.

I'm not really sure the SD meta is actually a rogue paradise; the 4C Landstill list was impressive, but a lot of the deck choices have seemed questionable. SDZoo never impressed me, and that Reanimator list seems to have a lot of extraneous jank slots. Not to discourage innovation, but I'm not sure that the Johnny Complex should be fostered either.

[calosso]

I have never been to impressed with the Sd decks. 4c Landstill is a decent deck and the only reason I drew with the deck is 2 reasons time, and Nick Trudeau. If it had been another player I would have won that match. SD zoo, and the reanimator decks has never been to impressive.

[Peter_Rotten]

Odd. I seem to have the opposite impression. I've generally been interesed in many SD decks - Reanimator, Bw Braids, SDZoo, Throbbing Pink Weenie - but relatively uninterested in the the Landstill revision.

Sorry, no explanation - just throwing it out there.

[Bryant Cook]

Dave Hernandez is crying right now.

Edit: I hope this doesn't turn into an East Coast Vs. West Coast thing, look what happened to Biggie and Tupac.

[Lanfeng]

I have never been to impressed with the Sd decks. 4c Landstill is a decent deck and the only reason I drew with the deck is 2 reasons time, and Nick Trudeau. If it had been another player I would have won that match. SD zoo, and the reanimator decks has never been to impressive.

Reason 2 is also why decks don't get a lot of input as well, sure if it had been anybody else because anybody else hasn't had all the experience with the deck. The decks we bring up have been tested and tuned and its tough to get good input when you bring it up to other people and they've never touched the deck and can only judge it with their first impression or their opinions about what it looks like on paper.

I'm not arguing with anybody, a lot of the points brought up so far are true, and this really isn't a rogue metagame so much that its just a bunch of people with their pet decks that are dead but they like adding their own tweaks or they just build a new version of an old idea.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

While those matchups were sort of ridiculous, that's not such a huge deal ultimately. It's hard to find a decklist posted that has realistic matchup percentages- as far as I'm personally aware, Vial-Goblins' only listed good matchups in the entire Open forum are Truffle Shuffle, Train Wreck and MUC- but we don't lock all of Godzilla's shitty threads. I think Peter_Rotten's locking of that thread was a bit of a dick move, although in his defense he has a compulsive need to lock things.

I do agree with him that whether or not they're breaking the metagame in half, I've been very impressed with the overall quality of San Diego decks, a lot of which have been both competitive and true innovations that aren't strictly subpar to one of the big three, rarities in this day and age.

[Complete_Jank]

I'm not sure you should expect a group hug, a cookie, or anything other than intense criticism and scrutiny when you post a deck claiming nothing but positive match-ups(sorry- except for ATS). That's not an issue of people being dicks(PR was being pretty reasonable about it), that's you being naive.


I posted it to share my deck, but I lied about the match-ups. No match-up is better than 50/50.

Matter of fact, the deck really sucks, and has less than a 10% chance to beat any deck. I win by getting people to conceed to me. None of the cards in the deck should ever be played because they all pretty much suck by themselves as well.

It really is a horrible deck, I think that you shouldn't give it another thought.

The deck was meant to be a joke like 43Land.deck.





It is amazing that Goblins can go 5-0 or 0-5 any given week. Threshold never finishes in the top 4, and when Solidarity is played, it is hit or miss much like Goblins.

We hate decks that show up often, and decks that do well over a few weeks get hated as well. If you consistantly take 1st, 2nd, or 3rd through all the hate you are either lucky, or have a decent deck.

[scrumdogg]

A lot of people are interested in not only SD decks & perspectives, but decks & perspectives from all over the globe - especially A) serious players/followers of the format & B) our large percentage of lurkers. Unfortunately, there are several problems.... First & foremost, far too many people who post frequently are from the idiot contingent - the ones who don't bother to build & test before shooting off about a deck. Their 'points' tend to range from useless to insulting and clutter a thread nicely.... Also, people (and I am as guilty here as anybody) will often respond to the person as much as the information. I find Complete Jank to be an arrogant ass, if a neat deckbuilder (much like IBA, ironically, if not quite so much...). As such, any responses are likely to be cranky, even when admiring decks (such as the B/w SmallPox, which I have been tinkering with). In the end, however, no posting/no exposure leads to not only a dearth of what could be format broadening conversation/introspection but dismissal of the entire meta & those who play within it.

[Complete_Jank]

A lot of people are interested in not only SD decks & perspectives, but decks & perspectives from all over the globe - especially A) serious players/followers of the format & B) our large percentage of lurkers. Unfortunately, there are several problems.... First & foremost, far too many people who post frequently are from the idiot contingent - the ones who don't bother to build & test before shooting off about a deck. Their 'points' tend to range from useless to insulting and clutter a thread nicely.... Also, people (and I am as guilty here as anybody) will often respond to the person as much as the information. I find Complete Jank to be an arrogant ass, if a neat deckbuilder (much like IBA, ironically, if not quite so much...). As such, any responses are likely to be cranky, even when admiring decks (such as the B/w SmallPox, which I have been tinkering with). In the end, however, no posting/no exposure leads to not only a dearth of what could be format broadening conversation/introspection but dismissal of the entire meta & those who play within it.

I am an arrogant ass, sorry for that. I just can't help myself, but please forgive me.

However, I posted this very deck in the New and Developement section, and continued to post updates and progress for over a month. I have nothing to do at work or most evenings. I have done almost nothing but work with the deck for the last month, and I was already thinking about the deck design long before I posted anything.

Don't say that I didn't give it exposure. It has had plenty of reports on it.

[Zilla]

Odd. I seem to have the opposite impression. I've generally been interesed in many SD decks - Reanimator, Bw Braids, SDZoo, Throbbing Pink Weenie...
QFT. I actually like a lot of the decks that come out of San Diego. If they're archetypes I have some familiarity with I try to give meaningful input when I can. I'd like to see more input from the SD crew.


It's hard to find a decklist posted that has realistic matchup percentages- as far as I'm personally aware, Vial-Goblins' only listed good matchups in the entire Open forum are Truffle Shuffle, Train Wreck and MUC- but we don't lock all of Godzilla's shitty threads.
Technically speaking, your matchup percentages aren't accurate either, since you're incapable of creating a deck that doesn't unintentionally draw every match it plays by going over time. But we don't delete all of your crappy threads either.


I think Peter_Rotten's locking of that thread was a bit of a dick move, although in his defense he has a compulsive need to lock things.
I actually agree, to an extent. I don't think Matt did it to be a dick, but I don't necessarily agree that the thread needed to be locked, either. What I do think is that if the deck is going to be posted in Open, it must have a far more detailed explanation of its matchups, including sideboarding plans and specific strategies integral to each matchup. This is far more useful to people than arbitrary win ratios, and is more credible as well. If CJ wants to take the time to do in-depth writeups on the matchups he's familiar with, I'm okay with moving the thread to Open.

Incidentally, my earlier comment about pontification was not in reference to the contents of his thread, but rather the contents of his many PM's to the mod staff, which have been largely obtuse, arrogant, sarcastic and disrespectful. Our patience wears thin.

[Complete_Jank]

I actually agree, to an extent. I don't think Matt did it to be a dick, but I don't necessarily agree that the thread needed to be locked, either. What I do think is that if the deck is going to be posted in Open, it must have a far more detailed explanation of its matchups, including sideboarding plans and specific strategies integral to each matchup. This is far more useful to people than arbitrary win ratios, and is more credible as well. If CJ wants to take the time to do in-depth writeups on the matchups he's familiar with, I'm okay with moving the thread to Open.

Incidentally, my earlier comment about pontification was not in reference to the contents of his thread, but rather the contents of his many PM's to the mod staff, which have been largely obtuse, arrogant, sarcastic and disrespectful. Our patience wears thin.

I know I come off as a PITA, but the approach here is much different than other places I post. Hell, I received an infraction, and never knew what it was for, even after I read the forum rules. I received an infraction for Double Posting, which the Forum Rules stated was something different than what I knew double posting to be, yet still wasn't what I had done.

I know that we discuss things via PM's, but frankly I was trying to keep that out of public knowledge, or at least the extent of the PM's unknown. The PM's I have received from mods, if shared, would surprise most users. They have been disrespectful and used vulger language in a yelling maner towards me. Every PM I've sent has been professional, and sent to make this a better site. Would you care for me to send you a copy of one such PM?


As for the locking of my thread; My thread yes did not include each Match-up and how it plays out, but more than half the [Decks] on the front page didn't either. Matter of fact, that I even discribed each card and why it works in the deck was more than some other [Deck]'s postings. Yours was very well written. If I ever post one again, I'll try to follow your format, but I don't think I'll have to worry about that.

[Cait_Sith]

So what to do you think of the odds of totally rogue decks popping up in San Diego? The odds of me going are well under low but I do feel that this thread needs to be back on topic as well as just being curious so I can get a feel for various metas when I start playing in these big tournaments.

[Zilla]

Would you care for me to send you a copy of one such PM?
Every mod on this site has seen every PM you've sent to every other mod. I don't have a whole lot of interest in discussing this in great depth here, but I will say this: several of your PM's to members of the mod staff have included the exact phrase "you can ban me if you want, but..." That phrase alone indicates that you're perfectly aware that the contents of your messages are crossing a line, whether you care to admit it openly or not. I've told you that we don't want to ban you, we just want you to follow site rules. We have neither the time nor the will to debate the wording or validity of site rules; if the mod staff says something is being done incorrectly and needs to change, that's the end of it.


As for the locking of my thread; My thread yes did not include each Match-up and how it plays out, but more than half the [Decks] on the front page didn't either. Matter of fact, that I even discribed each card and why it works in the deck was more than some other [Deck]'s postings.
All well and good, but take a look at your thread in the Open forum. 4 out of 5 of the only posts in that thread focused on the unreliability of your matchup percentages. Without real data upon which to base a productive discussion, more time by far will be spent calling into question your credibility than actually discussing your deck. The omission of matchup details does you and anyone else interested in the deck a disservice.

[Cait_Sith]

Okay. Jank, please stop making the Mods angry. I have done stuff like they do and it is not easy. They have to balance out the desires and needs of every single person here while keeping the wuality of the site high.

Now can anyone tell me something about the San Diego meta.

[Complete_Jank]

Every mod on this site has seen every PM you've sent to every other mod. I don't have a whole lot of interest in discussing this in great depth here, but I will say this: several of your PM's to members of the mod staff have included the exact phrase "you can ban me if you want, but..." That phrase alone indicates that you're perfectly aware that the contents of your messages are crossing a line, whether you care to admit it openly or not. I've told you that we don't want to ban you, we just want you to follow site rules. We have neither the time nor the will to debate the wording or validity of site rules; if the mod staff says something is being done incorrectly and needs to change, that's the end of it.

I'm not speaking about PM's to you, I'm speaking about PM's to me.



All well and good, but take a look at your thread in the Open forum. 4 out of 5 of the only posts in that thread focused on the unreliability of your matchup percentages. Without real data upon which to base a productive discussion, more time by far will be spent calling into question your credibility than actually discussing your deck. The omission of matchup details does you and anyone else interested in the deck a disservice.

Once again members just question whether or not the deck is any good, they just question it because they don't believe it. They don't test it, they imediately say, "no way." What? Must I win a large tourney with it to prove otherwise? It is different, and there are not decks like it out east. Red Death & B/W Pikula are the only things close, but even they aren't close. The deck was designed off the BWR Braids deck that had superior match-ups vs Goblins, Threshold, and Solidarity.


Okay. Jank, please stop making the Mods angry. I have done stuff like they do and it is not easy. They have to balance out the desires and needs of every single person here while keeping the wuality of the site high.

Now can anyone tell me something about the San Diego meta.

I am a Mod on another site that averages over a few thousand members logged on each day on that site. It is not a MTG site. I know about being a Mod, and that is why I approach them the way I do. They don't have to be disrespectful to the users, but they are.

[Phantom]

What? Must I win a large tourney with it to prove otherwise?

As a minor note, Faerie Stompy wasn't even moved into the open until it did well in a large tourney. I think that it was the correct move to keep SmallPox in the N+D until it either proves itself in a more varied and quality meta than just your weeklies, or it gets a fantastic write up of the quality of Countersliver or Thresh's first post.

[Complete_Jank]

As a minor note, Faerie Stompy wasn't even moved into the open until it did well in a large tourney. I think that it was the correct move to keep SmallPox in the N+D until it either proves itself in a more varied and quality meta than just your weeklies, or it gets a fantastic write up of the quality of Countersliver or Thresh's first post.

Sounds good, why don't the Mods just delete it, and I'll post something with a great write up much later, like in 2008.

[Citrus-God]

Edit: I hope this doesn't turn into an East Coast Vs. West Coast thing, look what happened to Biggie and Tupac.

This just in, Snoop Dogg and Dr. Dre quit the Bloods and became Crips.

[UrDraco]

Please, for your own good Mike, stop talking. I am actually interested in this topic and would like to be able to read it without every other post coming from CompleteJank, talking about nothing important or relevant. If you want to complain to someone send them a PM please. I would do the same but I doubt it would have the same effect.

But as for the topic...

On the east coast how rare it is for strange decks to show up? In San Diego there have been very many different rouge decks show up that people have never mentioned. We have seen everything from 5 different kobolds decks, a False Cure Skyshroud Cutter combo, many Stacks varients, combo Elves before the GP's, and so many other I can't even remeber. I can't say it enough though that decks here are very different because we design with more than the top 3 in mind. Not that people outside SD don't but we have the luxury that 80% of the field isn't gobo's/thresh. Decks here have to be more resiliant so they end up performing very differently. When there is a resiliant deck that also happens to have a good matchup with the top3 is when a deck actually migrates out of San Deigo.

[Zilla]

I'm not speaking about PM's to you, I'm speaking about PM's to me.
I've seen those too.


Once again members just question whether or not the deck is any good, they just question it because they don't believe it. They don't test it, they imediately say, "no way."
They say no way because you posted positive win percentages against nearly every prevalent archetype in the format without bothering to describe them in any detail. Furthermore, even if they did test it themselves, there's a strong likelihood that they won't replicate your results with the deck because you haven't bothered to explain to them how you do it. You know the deck - other people do not. If you want people to take your deck seriously and to give it the testing you feel it deserves, you have to educate them about it, particularly with regards to specific matchups.


What? Must I win a large tourney with it to prove otherwise?
It certainly wouldn't hurt. By and large, no one takes decks seriously until someone has put up results at a large tourney with them. That's true of every popular deck in the format right now.


I am a Mod on another site that averages over a few thousand members logged on each day on that site. It is not a MTG site. I know about being a Mod, and that is why I approach them the way I do.
The way you approach the mods reeks of condescension and narcissism. The Source is not an automotive website and you are not a mod here. That you are a mod elsewhere is meaningless to us. You are expected to follow moderative instruction like everyone else here. Each time you are asked to do so, you treat it as a personal affront. If you feel you're not being treated with the respect you deserve, you could start by earning it.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Sounds good, why don't the Mods just delete it, and I'll post something with a great write up much later, like in 2008.

If the Post is not long enough and you have a lot of time on your hands at work then why dont you just add to your post at work? You are the only player in the world who has played so why dont you help us out a little? If you add some strategies and and explain the matchups better then maybe the Mods will open it back up. Its not that the post sucks its just that there is not enough of it.

[Cait_Sith]

But as for the topic...

On the east coast how rare it is for strange decks to show up? In San Diego there have been very many different rouge decks show up that people have never mentioned. We have seen everything from 5 different kobolds decks, a False Cure Skyshroud Cutter combo, many Stacks varients, combo Elves before the GP's, and so many other I can't even remeber. I can't say it enough though that decks here are very different because we design with more than the top 3 in mind. Not that people outside SD don't but we have the luxury that 80% of the field isn't gobo's/thresh. Decks here have to be more resiliant so they end up performing very differently. When there is a resiliant deck that also happens to have a good matchup with the top3 is when a deck actually migrates out of San Deigo.

If we work hard UrDraco we can get this back on topic! It depends if I am there really. I have this obssessive need to create and play "rogue" decks, typically lockdown style, just because I can.

[Phantom]

They say no way because you posted positive win percentages against nearly every prevalent archetype in the format without bothering to describe them in any detail. Furthermore, even if they did test it themselves, there's a strong likelihood that they won't replicate your results with the deck because you haven't bothered to explain to them how you do it. You know the deck - other people do not. If you want people to take your deck seriously and to give it the testing you feel it deserves, you have to educate them about it, particularly with regards to specific matchups.


QFT. I picked up his other deck he posted (The Ex Girlfriend) and was nice enough to test it myself. He claimed to have better than 70% matchup against Tier 1. ("Solidarity, Goblins, and Threshold all pack up and practically conceed to this deck.") I proceeded to go 1-9 preboard against Goblins and 2-8 postboard against them. I posted my results on his thread thinking maybe he would disagree with me or give some tips or yell or something, and he just completely ignored my post.

That was when I lost all respect for Complete Jank's testing numbers and decks. Hell, I even think his new deck is pretty interesting, but why would I want to pick it up and try to help someone like that?

I'm really not saying this to try to be a dick, I'm saying that bad matchup numbers combined with a bad attitude will lose you the help of willing people. And it's never too late. I'm a pretty forgiving guy.


As for the SD meta. I think UrDraco hit it right on the nose. It's all well and good to have a deck that doing well in their meta, but if it can't be ported to a standard meta, then most of us have no use for it. I do hope that more people from the Whales Vagina start posting though. The clearly have an interesting Legacy community.

[Complete_Jank]

Please, for your own good Mike, stop talking. I am actually interested in this topic and would like to be able to read it without every other post coming from CompleteJank, talking about nothing important or relevant. If you want to complain to someone send them a PM please. I would do the same but I doubt it would have the same effect.

What Topic? There was a question, and Jaco answered it. I agreed with what he posted, as did you I believe. Lanny thought otherwise, but he's never really playing on a weekly basis. GodzillA and I kind of spiraled off, but I'm not surprised.


If the Post is not long enough and you have a lot of time on your hands at work then why dont you just add to your post at work? You are the only player in the world who has played so why dont you help us out a little? If you add some strategies and and explain the matchups better then maybe the Mods will open it back up. Its not that the post sucks its just that there is not enough of it.

You can't edit something that is locked. If it wasn't locked, I'd be happy to add more info for you all considering I sit here posting here, moding another site, or working on the deck.


QFT. I picked up his other deck he posted (The Ex Girlfriend) and was nice enough to test it myself. He claimed to have better than 70% matchup against Tier 1. ("Solidarity, Goblins, and Threshold all pack up and practically conceed to this deck.") I proceeded to go 1-9 preboard against Goblins and 2-8 postboard against them. I posted my results on his thread thinking maybe he would disagree with me or give some tips or yell or something, and he just completely ignored my post.

That was when I lost all respect for Complete Jank's testing numbers and decks. Hell, I even think his new deck is pretty interesting, but why would I want to pick it up and try to help someone like that?

I'm really not saying this to try to be a dick, I'm saying that bad matchup numbers combined with a bad attitude will lose you the help of willing people. And it's never too late. I'm a pretty forgiving guy.

I started reading your post and in the first sentence you mentioned that you didn't test it much, and I kind of just skimmed it after that. I personally have never lost to Goblins in a tourney with that deck, and don't see why you'd have problems. I almost always go three games in that match-up, and each game that I win is close, but I always have won the match. Play testing had proved they win about 25% of the matches, yet they win closer to 50% of the games. My numbers are Match %'s, not Game %'s.

As for wanting to play and test one of my decks and help me; I don't post here for help from others much. I'm really only looking to share my thoughts, but I do think about some things I read, as some people have some intelligent things to say.

[Phantom]

I started reading your post and in the first sentence you mentioned that you didn't test it much, and I kind of just skimmed it after that.

:sigh: My first sentance said this:


I went 50-50 with Thresh, but it wasn't enough games to be certain, so that's no biggie.

My second sentance, had you not been skimming said:


I did, however, test the Goblins matchup extensively and it wasn't pretty. I went 1-9 preboard and a much improved 2-8 postboard. I gotta say, this deck is just terrible against Goblins. I'm new to the deck, so I'm sure I made some play errors, but even a pro couldn't pull this matchup up to 50/50.

There's no way this deck wins 50% of it's matches against Goblins let alone 75%. I challenge any other member on here to back up yor numbers. The deck revolves around 3 and 4cc removal while running 4 Rituals and a terrible mana base.

As for this:


As for wanting to play and test one of my decks and help me; I don't post here for help from others much. I'm really only looking to share my thoughts, but I do think about some things I read, as some people have some intelligent things to say.

I call bullshit. I know you're the worlds greatest player and deckbuilder, but everyone comes on here looking for a little help else why would you post at all when you're so goddamn busy? Just to give away your tech? Doubtful. Look at your BW Smallpox thread. Hasn't it been improved through suggestions on this forum?

As for why I picked up your deck and tested, it was because you asked me to!


If you doubt the deck, test it.

I take the time to do what you asked and you give me the brush off. Fuck that.

Let's keep it civil. We're bordering on flames.

-PR

[Complete_Jank]

I call bullshit. I know you're the worlds greatest player and deckbuilder, but everyone comes on here looking for a little help else why would you post at all when you're so goddamn busy? Just to give away your tech? Doubtful. Look at your BW Smallpox thread. Hasn't it been improved through suggestions on this forum?

If you want to start discussing the Ex-Girlfriend deck, lets do it in that thread. I'll be happy to, this thread isn't the place to discuss how it is to be played.


As for the Small Pox Braids B/W deck:
Matter of fact it hasn't been improved through suggestions on this forum! Play testing it, playing it in tourneys, and discussing it with our "Team" has helped it. 2 Sets of changes were made to the deck, none of which were made because of inputs here. If you want to talk about that further, we can in another thread.

I don't come here looking for help, all the help I would ever need is here in San Diego. We compliment each other with our own suggestions. Usually one person makes a nice deck, and we point out to the other how to make it better, since we look at the deck as an outside source, and play against it often and see the weeknesses.

However, since you mentioned sharing tech: Matter of fact, I came here to post my unique deck designs so that others could study and learn, maybe even change them for their own use. Specially since I live here in San Diego, I wanted to share with everyone else that isn't here.

I also wanted to take credit for some things, as I've had decks of mine posted on the internet after I played them in tourneys. I even had someone new to the San Diego scene ask to see my Deck after I took first last week. He was playing a net deck, and I told him he could look my list up on the internet, but if he wanted to play a game I'd explain it to him, and he seemed less interested in the deck after that.

I decided to start posting on MTG sites because I hate people taking credit for other peoples work.

[xsockmonkeyx]

You can't edit something that is locked. If it wasn't locked, I'd be happy to add more info for you all considering I sit here posting here, moding another site, or working on the deck.




So, copy the post to a word file and work on it there. Im sure if you email a mod with an impressive post then they would be more likely to unlock it for you.

[Zilla]

So, copy the post to a word file and work on it there. Im sure if you email a mod with an impressive post then they would be more likely to unlock it for you.
I already said that I would.

[Lanfeng]

QAPC, everybody who wished to voice their opinion has and this is just becoming an argument between mike and the mods.

[Zilla]

QAPC, everybody who wished to voice their opinion has and this is just becoming an argument between mike and the mods.
The argument is over. Continue the conversation.

[wrshp666]

Ok, i notice that alot of people are curious about the meta game in San Diego, and no one has really done a good job except andres *UrDraco* and Jaco. *By the way, thanks Jaco for listing me as a good deckbuilder, it means a lot*

Back to the topic though.

The meta game changes every week at Game empire, the local store that holds legacy tournaments on fridays at 6:30. One week you might get tons of Aggro, while the next you might get tons of combo. With this kind of meta game, you never know what to expect and its always fun. The environment is mainly people that are
a) Competitive and want to win
b) There just for a fun time

You get a wide range of personalities such as annoying, childish, loud mouthed or just plain arrogant, but its always enjoyable.

Usually a *tier 1* deck is absent from the decks played. Since Reanimator is a big deck over here, thanks to Rodrigo Gonzalez, so Threshold is not played due to everyone playing mainboard or sideboard graveyard hate.

Solidarity/iggy pop isnt really played that much either, because, though some may argue but i doubt it, I started a big following of fish players in San Diego, and the builds i have rarely lose to these decks. I keep most of the decklists of fish i use secret, but i may have listed a couple here. My most recent one may make an appearence at Columbus and im hoping it does well.

Goblins doesnt make many appearences either due to...well, to tell the truth im not really sure why. We get goblin varients such as goblin sligh etc. but im guessing Goblins isnt played because the cards seem expensive to some players around here. Many people also that are experienced know how to beat the deck to a pulp, and that may be another reason why not to play it.

Many of the decks that appear alot at our San Diego Tournaments are:
Stax varients
Iggy pop *minimul*
Solidarity *minimul*
goblins *minimul*
Threshold
infinate life combo
U/X fish varients
B/X reanimator varients
B/w Braids
W/X aggro
Sligh
2 land belcher
landstill varients *including the ever so famous now 4cc*
Scepter chant
Survival Varients

I hope this was informative, any Questions, I will be happy to answser them

[Cait_Sith]

The argument is over. Continue the conversation.

I don't know why but this is funny.

Is Stax the only common lockdown deck you guys encounter?

[Lanfeng]

I don't know why but this is funny.

Is Stax the only common lockdown deck you guys encounter?

yup

[The Rack]

Alright, hello everyoneb i have played at Game Empire for a year or two now and have been surrounded by the best. I have built all my decks to be resilient against random crap. Jaco, Nick, and kevin show up with random ass decks every week. So your deck can't be aimed for the top three all the time. I agree with Jaco's first few posts and would like to add something. The reason a lot of my friends don't post here is because all the advice is flagrant crap. Sorry guys but it's true. I take more advice from my 15 year old friends more than the internet together. Nick told me "all advice isn't good advice". I haven't played at GE for a while due to basketball but will soon. Hope that added to the conversation.

[Complete_Jank]

Is Stax the only common lockdown deck you guys encounter?

yup

Lanny you should quit posting in this topic. You are mislead people, and that isn't helping discussion.

Heck, you posted that no one plays Solidarity, which is a blatent lie as there are 6 people that have the option to play it. You even chose to play it after you posted it, and when I asked you about it, you laughed and mentioned you didn't want to let anyone know you were going to play it, yet it doesn't matter as most people are set to play against that deck. By the way, how bad did you finish?


As for lockdown decks, what is your deffinition of a lockdown deck?

Mono-Blue Staxs is played, two different Black/White Braids decks are played, one being mine. I use to play my B/W/R Braids, I have a Welder Survival deck that has one win condition as a lockdown, and someone else plays another Survival deck that also has a different lockdown. ATS has Tradewind if you count that, and it is played.

What type of lockdown do you want to know about?

[Bryant Cook]

Lanny you should quit posting in this topic. You are mislead people, and that isn't helping discussion.

Heck, you posted that no one plays Solidarity, which is a blatent lie as there are 6 people that have the option to play it. You even chose to play it after you posted it, and when I asked you about it, you laughed and mentioned you didn't want to let anyone know you were going to play it, yet it doesn't matter as most people are set to play against that deck. By the way, how bad did you finish?


As for lockdown decks, what is your deffinition of a lockdown deck?

Mono-Blue Staxs is played, two different Black/White Braids decks are played, one being mine. I use to play my B/W/R Braids, I have a Welder Survival deck that has one win condition as a lockdown, and someone else plays another Survival deck that also has a different lockdown. ATS has Tradewind if you count that, and it is played.

What type of lockdown do you want to know about?

I have the option of playing any deck in the format that I want. Does this mean I should count each deck in my metagame analsys? I mean they could possibly be there right? But the fact of the matter is they're not. Not to mention his performance with a deck has nothing to do with this discussion and is highly irrelevant. Just because you have the option of playing a deck doesn't mean its there.

[JACO]

Is Stax the only common lockdown deck you guys encounter?
I'm not sure by you mean by 'lockdown' deck, but if you mean something that controls the board and tries to prevent the opponent from playing anything at all, the most commonly played things are Stax variants, Braids variants, Scepter-Chant type decks, and BW aggro/control. Pernicious Deed is a pretty popular card here, so a lot of the other permanent-based lock down strategies I see floated on this site would probably be too susceptible to this.


I have the option of playing any deck in the format that I want. Does this mean I should count each deck in my metagame analsys? I mean they could possibly be there right? But the fact of the matter is they're not. Not to mention his performance with a deck has nothing to do with this discussion and is highly irrelevant. Just because you have the option of playing a deck doesn't mean its there.
The point of Mike's argument was not carefully drawn, but it is that on any given week, you don't know what's going to show up. There are plenty of people with the cards to build Goblins, Threshold, Solidarity, and most of the other decks on here. On an average, out of 30+ decks, you could see 6 Goblins on a given night, or 0. You could see 3 Solidarity decks, or 0. You could see 8 R/x aggro decks on a given night, or you could see 1. You could see 4 ATS decks, or you could see 1. You could see 3 Madness decks, or you could see 0. You could see 4 Reanimator decks, or you could see zero. You could see 3 Devastating Dreams/Life From the Loam decks, or you could see 0. You could see 4 Fish type decks, or you could see 0. You could see 4 Landstill variants, or you could see 0. Do you get the point now?

This is what I was alluding to in my initials posts. The metagame changes relatively drastically from week to week, even with what he younger kids play, so it's correspondingly difficult to predict what is going to be played and sideboard accordingly. One thing is for certain though, and that is no matter what decks are played, there always seem to be TONS of the following cards in people's sideboards:
Tormod's Crypt
Engineered Plague
Chalice of the Void
Meddling Mage
Red Elemental Blast/Pyroblast
Blue Elemental Blast/Hydroblast

These are pretty efficient, flexible, and affordable sideboard solutions (with only Meddling Mage costing more than $2) that tend to do a good job of hating the most mainstream decks. Because of this, you often see things like Goblins or Solidarity get crushed if not piloted perfectly amidst a sea of hate.

I'm not sure what other questions you all have about this metagame. Things like Mike's deck and card choices, back and forth moderation discussion, and any other random crap is not really suitable for this thread, so if you have any other relevant questions I'll try to answer them.

[Complete_Jank]

I have the option of playing any deck in the format that I want. Does this mean I should count each deck in my metagame analsys? I mean they could possibly be there right? But the fact of the matter is they're not.

I think JACO phrased it properly. Because any given week any decks could be played. Sideboard cards are focused more towards effecting multiple decks rather than just hate for one particular deck. (Example: It is unlikely that you would see Tivadar's Crusade, unless there was an outbreak of Goblins for more than two weeks.)


Not to mention his performance with a deck has nothing to do with this discussion and is highly irrelevant. Just because you have the option of playing a deck doesn't mean its there.

Actually, his performance has everything to do with this thread. It shows that Solidarity, if played does not just own the field. Many people outside of San Diego think that Solidarity is absent here. I feel it isn't played as often because it doesn't usually perform as well as people would hope.

Like JACO mentioned many decks have Meddling Mage in the sideboard, but even more have them main in Fish varients. Meddling Mage is great against almost any combo deck that is played, including Solidarity.

[Bryant Cook]

You are wrong; "Solidarity if played just doesn't own the field" had nothing to do with the argument at hand. Have you ever taken into consideration peoples play skill or their knowledge of decks? Have Herbig, Gearhart, Ewokslayer or Jesse Hatfield go out there it would defiantly be a different story. You can't assume just because one person is inexperienced with a deck that the whole metagame shuts the deck down or can handle it, it's a false accusation. To sum up this whole thread....

"San Diego, which of course in German means a whale's vagina"
-Ron Burgundy

[The Rack]

You are wrong; "Solidarity if played just doesn't own the field" had nothing to do with the argument at hand. Have you ever taken into consideration peoples play skill or their knowledge of decks? Have Herbig, Gearhart, Ewokslayer or Jesse Hatfield go out there it would defiantly be a different story. You can't assume just because one person is inexperienced with a deck that the whole metagame shuts the deck down or can handle it, it's a false accusation. To sum up this whole thread...

Umm... you couldn't be more wrong... Playskill is a big part of the game but our meta is San Diegan (fun). Goblins tops quite often but only if they are played with more than 4 players. Don't get me wrong Lanny is a horrible player. ( How do you lose on turn 20 with IGGy Pop against Goblins with no board control?? wtf??) If David Gearhart came out here, he wouldnt get first place by any means. He's a good player ( a little highstrung...) but oyur metagame is so balanced he wouldn't be able to waltz in there and conquer. It just wouldn't happen...

[Bryant Cook]

Umm... you couldn't be more wrong... Playskill is a big part of the game but our meta is San Diegan (fun). Goblins tops quite often but only if they are played with more than 4 players. Don't get me wrong Lanny is a horrible player. ( How do you lose on turn 20 with IGGy Pop against Goblins with no board control?? wtf??) If David Gearhart came out here, he wouldnt get first place by any means. He's a good player ( a little highstrung...) but oyur metagame is so balanced he wouldn't be able to waltz in there and conquer. It just wouldn't happen...

How is it balanced by any means? From reading this thread it sounds like your metagame is anything but balanced. There's nothing to keep aggro in check, the control is higjhly under represented, you have one lock deck and finally you haze 0 combo. That is not balanced at all.

[The Rack]

We have combo... just not tier 1 combo. Belcher, Reanimator (i consider it combo), and Nausea. Control has Complete Jank's decks along with about 3 Loam variants, and some aggro control from me and a few other. Aggro is kept in check with the control having a lot of mass removal spells (deed, devastating dreams, wrath, and such) It is balanced, just not with tier 1 decks.

[Complete_Jank]

How is it balanced by any means? From reading this thread it sounds like your metagame is anything but balanced. There's nothing to keep aggro in check, the control is highly under represented, you have one lock deck and finally you haze 0 combo. That is not balanced at all.


You haven't read this thread if you think that. To make it simple for you read JACO's posts.


Combo Decks Played: Belcher(2-Land), Belcher(2-Land+Welder), Iggy, Solidarity, Tendrils(Eggs), Tendrils(Glimpse), Tendrils/Control(Artifact), Infinite Life, Brand, Illusions Donate, and Burning Wall. There are also others that aren't worth mentioning.

Control Decks Played: Landstill(BHWC), Landstill(UW), Landstill(UWG), MUC, Braids(BW), Braids(BWR), Braids(Pox), Staxs(Mono-U), Scepter Chant, Threshold, Devistating Loam, ATS, B/W Pikula, Geddon(UWG), Fish(UW), and Fish(Mono-U).

Aggro Decks Played: Fish(UR), Reanimator, Funk-Homebrew, Goblins(Vial - RW & RG), Goblins(non-vial - RW & RG), Goblins(Burn - RW, RG, & Mono-R), Burn-Burn-Burn, Big Beats(GR), Pro-beats(RW), Survival(RG), Survival(Welder), Survival(GRB), Survival(RECSUR), Stompy(8, 9, 10, & 11 land), RWU Aggro Burn, Mono-B, and Zoo-Zoo-Zoo.

San Diego Zoo has moved to type two temporarily.



I take top 8 every week, and I play Braids(Pox) currently. I believe that Braids is about the best control deck. Counter Control does only so well. Braids is a board control deck with pinpoint hand removal Complete board control makes up for things it can't counter.

Problem with most control decks is they can't counter everything, and aren't heavily equiped to deal with the board. Exception to this is BHWC Landstill.

The other control decks, Devistating Loam and Mono-U Staxs, are board control decks as well.

Funny that 3 of the 4 best control decks played here, BHWC Landstill, Devistating Loam, and Braids Pox, are all BHWC Decks.



Do we need to host a Duel for Duals to have our results taken seriously? Obviously our weekly tourneys are one of the 3 largest in the country, and often can be larger than some major tourneys held out east.

If there was a D4D's say the week that the Pro-Tour came to town or the Grand Prix, would any of you come and test your decks vs our field? A few of us have flown and driven out east, why don't you guys make a trip this way. It would be a little different than us going out there in the past, you would actually be invited all the way out here. Between San Diego and L.A. we could gather quite a large group of people.

[rodgon666]

wow...

i was told to come check this little discussion out for the sheer laughing value...im glad i did.

Jaco, thanks to you and mike, you make me sound like a good player...
im surprised to notice that everyone mentions me and it seems like i changed the whole metagame here ( i like to think for the better... or not)...hahaha ( i barely know how to play magic.....)

ok... down to the nitty gritty.

it has already been said... and one more time isnt going to hurt. San Diego players... at least the competitive ones, have one goal in mind. build a deck that will slaughter all. We have to have the three basic hate thoughts...I hate solidarity... i hate gobbos... i hate grow, in mind to make our decks work, there is no other about it. but unlike most legacy metas in the east coast... we also have to make way for all the tier 2 decks. and make sure that our decks play well against those... as you never know what your going to play against.

I quite frabkly believe that the reason for people not playing as many tier 1 decks in our little magic heaven is because they have a very very very little success rate. any given night, maybe 2 out of 8 tier one decks make it to the top 8 and almost never taking it all. thats my opinon though... ive only been playing there and analyzing this field for over 3 years... it must be petty compared to other peoples data.



i share the same notion about posting in this site as mike and Jaco. even though im not as frantic as mike, i also have been posting on this forum for a whiiiiile. without getting any real positive feedback and my posts... so i just stopped posting.

i mean... why sugarcoated mor than i have to.

i stopped caring what people thought about my decks the moment my threads got locked because of a mods friend supposively had a better vesion of a deck...not going to say when or where... but i hate dealing with childish bs. and thus you just lost the input of a really bad magic player. hahahahaha


but in all reality... who cares about what other people think? if you have a good deck, and it has promise play it over and over and over until even with all the hate againt it you can win. then it wont matter if people talk shit... cause you know they dont know crap... and you can bea them any given time.

[nitewolf9]

Loaming Shaman is the most broken card in legacy.

[Mister Agent]

I was wondering what do people in here think about funkbrew from san diego being a pretty good contender in legacy?

I'd say it has a good chance to do pretty well in the legacy metagame. I mean the deck has discard and removal for disruption. The deck can play a steady clock consistently.

I have done some playtesting with it against threshold, solidarity and goblins and so far the deck at least has a 50/50 chance or better against those 3 decks. The deck can play 3 ways either control, aggro-control or even pure aggro. However this is probably my own opinion about how the deck is overall played.

[rodgon666]

it actually has a good game against most decks, it beats most control decks and it also has a good matchup versus combo..

but the bad thing is that you have a terrible, match against any very aggro deck, at least preboard.

[Mister Agent]

I totally agree with you rod. I have been really impressed on how the deck is overall played against tier 1 and tier 2 decks. It also has alot of surprise factors in the deck as well.

Yeah funkbrew tends to have a bad matchup in game 1 against a competent goblin player. However I often find myself winning game 2 and 3 against the goblin player after correct boarding choices. :)

[DavidHernandez]

Dave Hernandez is crying right now.

LOL! HAhahahA!

Oh man, I needed that. Yes, this is an old thread, but I'm getting back into Legacy since it's being played in SD again! I should have a deck assembled within 2 weeks. It's amazing what has changed in 8 years....

:-/

Dave

[ironclad8690]

LOL! HAhahahA!

Oh man, I needed that. Yes, this is an old thread, but I'm getting back into Legacy since it's being played in SD again! I should have a deck assembled within 2 weeks. It's amazing what has changed in 8 years....

:-/

Dave

It's pretty much the same as it used to be, just now with less aggro decks and now midrange is the flavor of the week.

[Shawon]

It's pretty much the same as it used to be, just now with less aggro decks and now midrange is the flavor of the week.

And Affinity is the best-positioned aggro deck in the format, except no one knows it but me. Go figure.

[SpikeyMikey]

Oh man. That's a blast from the past. Reminds me to thank Jaco for the props on Zoo and 4c Landstill. I miss the old days from 2005 when I could go play weekly Legacy at 40-60 man tournaments. I've heard the Legacy scene in San Diego isn't what it used to be, but man, it's gotta be better than Madison.

[Polish Tamales]

I'm close to the SD area, but I was wondering if there's a scene at Pair A dice games. Anyone here goes to that shop?

[DavidHernandez]

Ok, so far ANT and S&T seem to be the most consistent winners in San Diego. Once in a while there's the win by something random (think "Goblins" or "BW"). I'm trying to think of any other deck that has really "won" in the last 10 weeks that I've returned to the scene.

UW Miracle control may have won once in that time.

Elves! want to get close, but don't make it to the top. RUG Delver seems to have a good game but doesn't make it to the top either. JUND doesn't exist here anymore, and didn't do well. Stoneblade wants to be in the finals it can almost taste it! Almost.

*sigh*

We need more than 4 rounds!

I'm having a blast and find the players here are really good people. I look forward to talking with this group as much as actually playing the games.

Dave