[DECK] 22Plains.dec [Archive]

urdjur

12-13-2006, 10:56 AM

Here is the most recent list, as it turned out on page 3 in this thread. Current as of December 19. The original post is intact below, if you want to see how it developed.

LAND (22)
18 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb

CREATURES (22)
4 Lantern Kami
4 Soltari Foot Soldier
4 Mother of Runes
4 Freewind Falcon
4 Razor Golem
2 Jötun Grunt

OTHER SPELLS (16)
4 Orim's Chant
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Mask of Memory
4 Grafted Wargear

SIDEBOARD (15)
4 Abolish
4 Parallax Wave
4 Glowrider
2 Jötun Grunt
1 Gaea's Blessing

***OLDER STUFF***
Now for something completely different. I’ve lately been tinkering with a rogue anti-strategy white aggro deck, with an improved combo match-up. It’s very simple, redundant, and consistent, which is why it works despite its lack of “good cards”. This is not Angel Stompy, nor is it Wayfarer White Weenie, so please don't treat it or consider it as such. It does exploit the fact that top decks think they are playing either two of these archetypes when they see a Plains though.

Why play a white aggro deck at all? White aggressive equipment decks have the possibility to race goblins and can easily afford to include multi-purpose main deck hate like Silver Knight or Beloved Chaplain. They are often described as “anti-aggro aggro” and can potentially be trimmed to beat threshold pretty good too. The main reason not to play white aggro is its horrible combo match-up. Main deck and sideboard choices have been tried, such as True Beliver, Rule of Law and Glowrider. However, they are often too slow and/or too easy to bounce when not backed up by counters etc.

Enter Orim’s Chant. A white instant that will break sorcery speed IGGy Pop and has potential against Solidarity if backed up by an aggressive clock. If we make the aggressive base rich in evasion, we also get the potential to take a “time walk” against other aggro decks by playing it in their upkeep as a finisher. Against control, it can either serve as a counter shield or delay Wrath of God a precious turn. The deck list:

LANDS (22)
22 Plains

CREATURES (25)
4 Suntail Hawk
4 Lantern Kami
4 Mother of Runes
4 Beloved Chaplain
3 Soltari Priest
3 Silver Knight
3 Razor Golem

OTHER SPELLS (13)
4 Orim’s Chant
4 Steelshaper’s Gift
4 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa’s Jitte

SIDEBOARD (15)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abolish
4 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Kusari-Gama
1 Specter’s Shroud
1 Leonin Bola

For my next trick, I will try to convince the reader why 22 Plains is a good choice for competitive Legacy. The first reason is statistics. You need two white sources not to mulligan. Even with 22 of those, you’re 19% unlikely to get 2 sources in your starting hand. Even if you’d only switch two of those for something colorless, you then run a 25% risk of not getting the needed mana. Insufficient colored sources or insufficient amount of threats, even when you mulligan down to 5, are responsible for a huge amount of game losses. Vial Goblins contain only mana sources and threats, which is a huge part of its success. It will simply loose far fewer games to chance than most other decks. Second, consider what you would run instead of the plains, and factor in artifact hate, creature hate, card disadvantage, non-basic hate etc. I’ve come to love my plains, since very few things can then interfere with my game plan. They are obviously the namesake of the deck, to emphasize its focus on redundancy and consistency.

The rest of the deck is built on the same theme: extreme redundancy and consistency. The control player may counter or remove things at 1-for-1 as much as he wants. Next turn, you will simply replace them. The recipe is simple: lands for mana, evasion creatures for damage dealing, tough creatures for board control and equipment for all the utility you need (removal, pump, draw and occasionally life gain). A base that Orim’s Chant can abuse, which allows you to have a good main deck answer to combo.

Game plan:
Turn 1: Resolve an evasion creature or Mother of Runes, failing that, fetch SoFI.
Turn 2: Evasion creature(s) or board control creature (Silver Knight or Beloved Chaplain).
Turn 3: SoFI (or Jitte) comes down here >80% of the time. If not, more board control with Razor Golem or Knight/Chaplain.
Turn 4: Equip SoFI. Do it again if its target gets removed in response and you made the fourth land drop (50% of the time). Else, play creatures, ideally Razor Golem for 2 mana.
Turn 5: If I can play Orim's Chant in their upkeep here and swing twice, I goldfish here. Or, if I played Razor Golem turn 4 in addition to attacking with SoFI, I also goldfish here regardless of Orim's Chant. Else I play out my hand here if I don’t suspect a sweeper and goldfish turn 6.

The card choices should not need much explaining but:
Umezawa’s Jitte: SoFI is much better for the deck, but they are quite interchangeable and “9 effective SoFI” is better than 8. Also good with a Meddling Mage naming SoFI (the right thing to name here, but almost never happens game 1 against an unassuming UGw Threshold opponent). The life gain is relevant against Burn and for preventing a “come back” from IGGy Pop.
Beloved Chaplain: Has evasion and is immune to Goblins removal (barring StP variants). Can chump block mongoose, werebear or manlands all day long. Fills all the necessary roles, and can be played by turn 2, which is a necessary requirement for an evasion creature in the deck. If you have this and active Mother of Runes in play at the same time, you will win against aggro. Of course, any aggro player will kill them both immediately if they can.
Orim’s Chant: The key spell in the deck. Please refer to the introduction if you missed why this is included.

despo

12-13-2006, 11:16 AM

Finally a deck abusing razor golem :D. I like the idea of your deck.

Why no isamaru? He blocks lackey and lives, and is a better clock against combo /control than your suntail hawk/lantern kami. I understand the importance of evasion (jitte/sofi), but raw power is not to be underestimated.

About the manabase: why no fetch? You may want 2 white sources in your opening 7, but you don't want to keep drawing land. Fetch helps you here by filtering.

You run 4 steelshaper's gift with only 5 targets in your deck of wich 4 are sofi, so it's not exactly a toolbox :). I would cut one for another jitte/mask of memory/sword of light and shadow.

Tao

12-13-2006, 11:58 AM

So this the new Truffle Shuffle?

xsockmonkeyx

12-13-2006, 01:29 PM

Do you have any outs against Pithing Needle? Also, if SOFI is your only decent clock then shouldnt you have a way to power it out faster than turn 3, equip turn 4?

EDIT: you might find some useful ideas from this I posted: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=100390&postcount=4

Pinder

12-13-2006, 02:39 PM

LANDS (22)
22 Plains

You mean 18 Plains and 4 Flagstones of Trokair, right? I mean, come on.

Elfrago

12-13-2006, 03:04 PM

You mean 18 Plains and 4 Flagstones of Trokair, right? I mean, come on.

No, he means 4 Flagstones, 4 good old fetches and 14 plains

Cait_Sith

12-13-2006, 03:20 PM

Fetchs are vulnerable to Pithing, Flagstones are not.

urdjur

12-13-2006, 03:34 PM

Why no isamaru? He blocks lackey and lives, and is a better clock against combo /control than your suntail hawk/lantern kami. I understand the importance of evasion (jitte/sofi), but raw power is not to be underestimated.

I'm happy to trade 1-1 against Goblin Lackey, the real benefit with Isamaru is that Lackey can't get through if they are on the play and use turn two Mogg Fanatic or Gempalm Incinerator on your intended blocker. The chances this being relevant for your deck build are slim however. It requires:
*You playing Goblins
*Goblins being on the play (50%)
*Goblins having a hand with Lackey AND fanatic/incinerator AND something terrible to lackey out like SGC - AND assuming you can't StP or Isamaru if they attempt to go that route.

More powah is always good, but 1-5 damage getting through is better than 2-6 damage locked on the board. I need the 15 evasion creatures. Badly.

Generally on fetches to those suggesting it: The deck thinning is statistically insignificant. Really, this has been calculated, google it. They thin your deck like the choice of pencil affects the outcome of a test: not very much. They are fantastic in multi-colored decks since they are wasteland resistent and fetch basics and duals alike, and builds up your grave which is important for some decks. Do not run them for deck thinning. They are also stifle targets, pithing needle targets and deal you one damage for no significant effect.

Do you have any outs against Pithing Needle?

If it names SoFI, I have Jitte. The same applies to Meddling Mage. Having one back-up plan is really my only main deck out to keep my creature removal. If lost, I will just have to use my creatures like Lemmings:
Attackers: Suntail Hawk, Lantern Kami, Soltari Priest
Blockers: Mother of Runes, Beloved Chaplain
Athletes: Silver Knight, Razor Golem
In the sideboard, I have StP and Abolish against magi/needle.

EDIT: you might find some useful ideas from this I posted: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...90&postcount=4

That was a great link, thank you. Freewind falcon merits consideration, as it sort of merges the role of Silver Knight and Soltari Priest into one, at the cost of one point in power. Perhaps a 2/2/2 split is better than the present 3/3/0 split?

You mean 18 Plains and 4 Flagstones of Trokair, right? I mean, come on.

Pros: Armageddon resilience.
Cons: Loss of synergy with Razor Golem, possible tempo disadvantage with 2 in opening hand.

Again, deck thinning is not a factor that should be considered here either. If one faces alot of control and/or solidarity (I don't) and goes for Armageddon main, it could very well be worth it. For me, nah.

Phantom

12-13-2006, 04:33 PM

Fetchs are vulnerable to Pithing, Flagstones are not.

No one is going to needle a fetch against this deck...ever.

My thoughts, and I hope they're not too negative:

1) Do you have any numbers on the combo matchups? They still look terrible. You have cards that matter to a combo deck preboard, and what, 1 more coming out of the board? This means that right off the bat you're losing 50% of your matches against combo. I really like Orim's Chant, but it's pretty much crap against Solidarity, and certainly isn't an auto win against IGGy (they run main deck hate against it like Defense Grid, Leyline, and X. Swarm). Even if you do get it off, your slow clock will give them a chance to recover and go off again. Which brings me to my next point:

2) The clock is too slow for a pretty dedicated aggro deck in Legacy. I mean, let's say that the top 4 aggro decks are Goblins, FS, AS, and Red Death (I'm just throwing these out there). Look at there clocks and disruption vs. yours:

Goblins best clock: 3 turn goldfish.
Goblins disruption: Varies but includes Wastes, Ports and creature removal.

Faerie Stompy best clock: 3 turn goldfish.
Faerie Stompy disruption: Chalice and Fow as well as P. Blast.

Angel Stompy best clock: 4 turn goldfish (I think).
Angel Stompy disruption: Bombs like Parallax Wave and Armageddon as well as Swords.

Red Death best clock: 3 turn goldfish.
Faerie Stompy disruption: Heavy discard and Land Destrucion.

22 Plains best clock: 5 turn Goldfish.
22 Plains disruption: Orim’s Chant.

Hell, Angel Stompy has all but fallen off the map thanks to a slow clock and poor combo hate.

3) Your point about redundancy and consistency is valid, but I think it has some wholes. Decks in Legacy often sacrifice some measure of consistency for explosiveness figuring that the explosiveness will win them more games than the mulliganing will lose them. Consistency seems like a route to .500 records in tourneys. You will win some games due to the other decks inconsistent draws, but lose to their explosiveness. How does this deck deal with a first turn Sea Drake or Razoremane or Akroma or even a Hypy?

4) People have brought it up before, but needle is going to hurt this deck. Without your equipment, all of your creatures are pretty small and will die to Thresh's creatures for example (note that your Thresh hate out of the board is needleable too). This problem is fairly easily solved by dropping a F/I for L/Shadow, which will be nice when you need pro white or black.

5) Steelshapers gift is nice, but it slows down your already slow deck. You said you want to be dropping critters turns 1 and 2 and dropping a sword turn three and equipping turn 4. If you have to tutor the Sword up, then you can push that back to turn 5, or not drop a creature on turn 2. Either way, not good. I would at least drop 2 for 2 more Jittes.

6) Without fetches you WILL be drawing land when you need answers or creatures. There's a reason every deck in Legacy that can run them does.

7) Razor Golem seems awesome, but the more I think about him, the more he seems worse than Serra Avenger. Golem costs 3 on turn 3 or 2 on turn 4 (assuming you hit all your land drops and they don't kill any) and is a 3/4 Vigilant. Avenger comes out turn 4 for 2 no matter what, which seems minor since you said you'll be dropping equipment turn 3 more than 80% of the time. Avenger flies, but does die to bolt, chain lightning, and mongoose while Golem dies to all the artifact hate opponents WILL be boarding in against you. It's about a wash, but I think that Avengers evasion would be worth it in a deck with so much equipment.

8) Can you explain to me the equipment that coming out of the board? Kusari-Gama seems like a slow way to just make a creature unblockable, and maybe a tad pumpable. Specter’s Shroud I'm assuming is for combo. Making combo discard a card of it's choice as early as turn 3 is ok I guess. Leonin Bola is for creatures who ar bigger than yours?

9) Does the deck just fold to sweepers like Wrath and Deed backed up by any other removal? It seems like you have no other draw engine that isn't creature based to recover from such a blow.

Anyway, I hope this post wasn't too negative. I'm not the flaming type, and am open to any counter arguments. Good luck with the deck and in Legacy!

Maverick676

12-13-2006, 05:43 PM

How does this deck stand up to thresh or a dedicated control deck? 4 orim's chant will not win you the game against a deck running a board sweeper like wrath, deed ect.

Why are swords sideboarded? there should be a law against that or something. Swords are the best removal in the game ,if you have white mana and are not a combo deck then you run four maindeck.

Cait_Sith

12-13-2006, 05:54 PM

Vial Goblins disagrees with you.

urdjur

12-13-2006, 06:01 PM

My thoughts, and I hope they're not too negative:
[...]
Anyway, I hope this post wasn't too negative. I'm not the flaming type, and am open to any counter arguments.

Not at all, but I appreciate your courtesy. I sincerely hope you will continue to contribute with input and reply to what I present below.

1) Do you have any numbers on the combo matchups? They still look terrible. You have cards that matter to a combo deck preboard, and what, 1 more coming out of the board? This means that right off the bat you're losing 50% of your matches against combo. I really like Orim's Chant, but it's pretty much crap against Solidarity, and certainly isn't an auto win against IGGy (they run main deck hate against it like Defense Grid, Leyline, and X. Swarm). Even if you do get it off, your slow clock will give them a chance to recover and go off again. Which brings me to my next point:

I'm happy to see that you guess pretty much like I do. I count on a 40-50% MU against IGGy Pop game 1, and a 50-65% MU games 2 and 3 (due to Crypt), for an average/even MU total. Solidarity doesn't see play here, but I would estimate game 1 to 25% and games 2-3 probably worse. If you need to beat Solidarity with this, consider 2xGaea's Blessing + 4xAngel's Grace, possibly backed-up by a few Rule of Law in the board.

I see mostly aggro, but I don't want to roll my pants down and bend over to combo (especially IGGy Pop, since that's the most common, even though combo itself is fairly uncommon due to the strong position of Threshold here). Having even game against IGGy Pop is all I ask really, ideally without main-decking something that's subpar in other games.

2) The clock is too slow for a pretty dedicated aggro deck in Legacy. I mean, let's say that the top 4 aggro decks are Goblins, FS, AS, and Red Death (I'm just throwing these out there). Look at there clocks and disruption vs. yours:

What you're showing there are not average clocks as I understand the concept. Your showing ideal goldfishes, which is something else. They answer these two, different questions:
Ideal Goldfish: On an ideal draw, on what round does this deck cause 20 damage against a non-existent opponent at the earliest?
Average Clock: When you play this deck against an opponent, on what turn does it win on average?

A deck with 1 chrome mox, 1 ancient tomb, 1 plains and 1 Exalted Angel will have a great ideal goldfish, but can't repeat its ideal trick over the course of many games. A deck with 20 plains and 40 Savannah Lions will perform identically all the time and have a good goldfish, but still won't get the damage through in a real game and the lions will die horribly.

The clock vs. goldfish shouldn't really be considered a separate point - it's a special case of point 3, consistency vs. explosiveness:

3) Your point about redundancy and consistency is valid, but I think it has some wholes. Decks in Legacy often sacrifice some measure of consistency for explosiveness figuring that the explosiveness will win them more games than the mulliganing will lose them. Consistency seems like a route to .500 records in tourneys. You will win some games due to the other decks inconsistent draws, but lose to their explosiveness. How does this deck deal with a first turn Sea Drake or Razoremane or Akroma or even a Hypy?

This requires consideration. How does any deck deal with a first turn Sea Drake? Let's say you have 4 StP for this purpose. Well, even if you do, there's only a 40% that you have one when that Sea Drake hits the board turn 1. If not, you're as unlucky as I am. Me, I have to wait to turn 4 while I chump block with flying weenies, hopefully backed-up by Mother of Runes. Fortunately, turn 1 Sea Drake requires a hand with Sea Drake (P=0.4), 2mana-land (P=0.65) and a Chrome Mox (P=0.4) as well as a card to imprint, for a combined probability of less than 10%. This means that having that StP main deck for this specific purpose is only relevant in 4% of all the matches you play against FS.

Just something to consider when people say "Oh, I have an answer to...". The key is not to have an answer against a very spectacular and unusual play from one deck, but an answer against the most common problems. In this example (FS), Chalice for 1 is a much bigger problem since it halves my equipment and shuts down all flyers and mom, and is actually quite probable, and I have no way of dealing with it main deck except for playing around it. That is relevant. Not having a fast answer against turn 1 Sea Drake is not. Fortunately for me, a grand total of 2 people play FS competitively in my country (and with unimpressive results, I might add), reanimator does not exist and black disruption is rogue at best.

4) People have brought it up before, but needle is going to hurt this deck. Without your equipment, all of your creatures are pretty small and will die to Thresh's creatures for example (note that your Thresh hate out of the board is needleable too). This problem is fairly easily solved by dropping a F/I for L/Shadow, which will be nice when you need pro white or black.

SoLS is nice. Might go for one main deck or at least in the board. Truly, with THREE different equipment pieces, needle should be less of an issue.

Steelshapers gift is nice, but it slows down your already slow deck. You said you want to be dropping critters turns 1 and 2 and dropping a sword turn three and equipping turn 4. If you have to tutor the Sword up, then you can push that back to turn 5, or not drop a creature on turn 2. Either way, not good. I would at least drop 2 for 2 more Jittes.

Steelshaper's Gift slows me down like Brainstorm slows an Ux deck down. Turn 1 Gift is a relevant play if I don't get one of my 12 1/1 drops on the draw. If I have two 1/1 drops, I can play it with the second on turn 2. Jitte is pretty bad in the deck since its effects activate later than those of SoFI, so I'd really like to keep it to one copy in case something bad happens or life gain is the only thing that will save me. Jitte only comes out faster than SoFI if hard cast turn 2, but then I only have one creature to equip it to turn 3, and it will surely be killed. However, it actually cashes in one turn later when it comes to the above discussed clock, making it a clear secondary choice.

6) Without fetches you WILL be drawing land when you need answers or creatures. There's a reason every deck in Legacy that can run them does.

With fetches, I will do the same. Really. That comes from running 22 lands, not which lands you run. Unfortunately, sometimes top-decking land is a necessary evil. The answer is a mana curve that fits the clock, so you won't empty your hand prematurely.

7) Razor Golem seems awesome, but the more I think about him, the more he seems worse than Serra Avenger. Golem costs 3 on turn 3 or 2 on turn 4 (assuming you hit all your land drops and they don't kill any) and is a 3/4 Vigilant. Avenger comes out turn 4 for 2 no matter what, which seems minor since you said you'll be dropping equipment turn 3 more than 80% of the time. Avenger flies, but does die to bolt, chain lightning, and mongoose while Golem dies to all the artifact hate opponents WILL be boarding in against you. It's about a wash, but I think that Avengers evasion would be worth it in a deck with so much equipment.

Evasion creatures in this deck *must* come out turn 1 or 2 if you want to use SoFI with them. Otherwise they won't be attacking with SoFI until turn 5. With 22 lands, I have more than an 80% chance of making my third land drop, and I drop the fourth 50% of the time. The point of the Golem is to add a back-up plan to failing to find/resolve/use a sword. I then need a powerful board control piece to stall while I recover and ping with my evasion weenies. With the Golems, the chance of doing something decisive on turn 3 goes up 90%. The artifact hate *is* a problem, but as long as they are targetting Golem and not my Swords, I'm pretty happy. Hope that explains why I choose Golem over Avenger.

8) Can you explain to me the equipment that coming out of the board? Kusari-Gama seems like a slow way to just make a creature unblockable, and maybe a tad pumpable. Specter’s Shroud I'm assuming is for combo. Making combo discard a card of it's choice as early as turn 3 is ok I guess. Leonin Bola is for creatures who ar bigger than yours?

Oh my, I completely botched those Japanese names. Manriki-Gusari it is! Gonna change that in the list. I wanted the equipment destroying equipment against random aggro and IF I would run into either of the two FS decks mentioned above. Shroud is useful if I would ever run into Solidarity, but more intended for slow control to force them to play or discard their answers and not save them for something more useful. Right on Leonin Bola, plus it denies combat effects (like most equipment).

9) Does the deck just fold to sweepers like Wrath and Deed backed up by any other removal? It seems like you have no other draw engine that isn't creature based to recover from such a blow.

Possibly. Mother + pro:red dudes do what they can against spot removal. Clock is important here, as is postponing mana intensive sweepers with Chant. Not overextending is the best thing.

SUMMARY
Things I will consider in light of the above:
*Sword of Light and Shadow
*Maindecking StP
*Explosiveness vs. Consistency, mainly in the form of Chrome Mox which means going down in plains which means dropping Razor Golem. Not sure how I will decide here at all.

Cheers!

Phantom

12-13-2006, 09:11 PM

@ The Solidarity matchup: I would def board in Glowrider first. He buys you time while helping your beatdown plan and it takes Solidarity a lot of mana to bounce him.

What you're showing there are not average clocks as I understand the concept. Your showing ideal goldfishes, which is something else.

I do agree here that they are 2 seperate things, and I would have much rather shown the average clock, but I have know way of knowing or proving what the average clock is. Quickest goldfish is the best objective measure of speed I have at my disposal. Regardless, those decks are faster than this one and manage to run more disruption, right?

This requires consideration. How does any deck deal with a first turn Sea Drake? Let's say you have 4 StP for this purpose. Well, even if you do, there's only a 40% that you have one when that Sea Drake hits the board turn 1. If not, you're as unlucky as I am. Me, I have to wait to turn 4 while I chump block with flying weenies, hopefully backed-up by Mother of Runes. Fortunately, turn 1 Sea Drake requires a hand with Sea Drake (P=0.4), 2mana-land (P=0.65) and a Chrome Mox (P=0.4) as well as a card to imprint, for a combined probability of less than 10%. This means that having that StP main deck for this specific purpose is only relevant in 4% of all the matches you play against FS.

Well, the problem is, I gave a very specific example to prove a general point. It's just as likely that FS would bust off a turn 1 Serendib, or even a Weatherseed, Cloud, or Sprite and follow it up with equipment the next turn. All of these scenarios give you problems as well as a ton of others (turn 1 Lackey, turn 2 Stp or Incinerator, turn 1 Akroma, Razormane, turn 3 Darksteel etc).

My point isn't that you should run more answers (although maindecking swords is probably the way to go) it's that other decks run both answers and a clock, so if i drop a turn 1 drake and they look at their hand and find no answers, they simply say "Alright, I'm gonna race this fucker".

Steelshaper's Gift slows me down like Brainstorm slows an Ux deck down. Turn 1 Gift is a relevant play if I don't get one of my 12 1/1 drops on the draw. If I have two 1/1 drops, I can play it with the second on turn 2.

And here lies my problem. You have 12 one drops, so you shouldn't really ever plan on not having one on turn one. You have, what, 10 two drops, so you'll probably have one of those as well. Even in the above described 2 1cc creatures, Gift is still clearly slowing you down. I would still go with some Jitte's, even if they are less devestating. An added perk is that Jitte is far and away the most popular equipment run in Legacy, so Jitte killing Jitte is nice to have more than once.

Iranon

12-14-2006, 03:51 AM

Not sure if this is helpful, but I supplement goldfishing by something that could be called 'zoofishing' to get a better feel against creature decks in a way that eliminates chance as far as it pertains to my opponent's deck.

I assume my opponent makes the following plays if not disrupted:

Turn 1: 2/1
Turn 2: 2/3, 2/2
Turn 3: 3/3; 1 Lightning bolt (as soon as that seems a good idea)

To balance the agressive start, I assume my opponent has nothing relevant on turn 4 and 5; at their turn 6 I look at how the game is going and take notes of the game state ('I control the board but am within burn range', 'it's turned into a race and a Jitte + equip would utterly wreck me' etc).

Before someone comments on it, I am aware that the imaginary player screwed up; that is intentional because handling a x/1 one-drop is something that matters in practice. The main reason I chose Zoo as an aggro template to play against is that it simplifies things while remaining somewhat realistic. It is also relevant if you are worried about more explosive decks, because the sample plays will kill you turn 4 unless you do something about it.

On a final note, this testing method errs on the side of being too harsh. Don't expect to be favoured in the suggested turn 6 evaluation; an 'I could still win this...' 50% of the time should mean that your deck has an adequate game against aggro.

urdjur

12-14-2006, 05:37 AM

My point isn't that you should run more answers (although maindecking swords is probably the way to go) it's that other decks run both answers and a clock, so if i drop a turn 1 drake and they look at their hand and find no answers, they simply say "Alright, I'm gonna race this fucker".

Right you are, and I've decided to work on the race-this-fucker-approach rather than the answer approach. More on this below.

I've slept on the whole consistency vs. occasional explosiveness issue, mainly from a chrome mox perspective, and I don't think the trade is worth it. But perhaps, such a trade need not be made at all? Not liking the results of putting explosiveness in the mana base, I thought about putting it in the equipment base instead. It looks like this right now:

4 Grafted Wargear
4 Steelshaper's Gift
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte

I have more of a toolbox approach with Gift now. I'm hoping to draw a Grafted Wargear for attacking with a 4/3 flyer on turn three (not unlike Faerie Stompy), but if I don't, I can fetch the most useful bomb in the present match-up. The wargear is great with cheap, replacable evasion creatures. When I just need the pump and clock speed, it's fast and brutal. When I need spot removal, draw, life gain, pro: U/R/B/W, or creature recursion, there's the toolbox. I don't think Needle/Mage is a big threat to the game plan anymore, since I have 4 different cards that grant me creature pump.

Why are swords sideboarded? there should be a law against that or something. Swords are the best removal in the game ,if you have white mana and are not a combo deck then you run four maindeck.

It's a meta choice. My most important match-ups, in order, are:
Ux aggro-control: UGw and UGr Thresh are most common, there's also Fish, UG madness, an occasional Faerie Stompy, and some random jank. Perhaps 40% of my playing field or more. When they see turn 1 plains, they will expect StP and hold counters for it. I want to exploit this fact rather than playing into their hands. There's also the issue of mongoose.
Vial Goblins: Most certainly not needed. I'll still board it in in favor of a 1 cc flyer simply because I know it will resolve (unless they board in Chalice) and has more potential in the match-up.
IGGy Pop: Not needed. If they ran Swarms main deck, maybe. Will be boarded in though since swarm is expected and I can occasionally foil a win by StPing one of my own buffed up dudes.
43land: It would be useful here, no doubt. RFG:ing threats from their graveyard engine is some good. My resilience against their land/creature disruption and my evasion creatures usually mean I can race them though, so this is a slightly favorable match-up for me game one (unless they are running Glacial Chasm in a Crop Rotation tool box, but the loam decks here don't play chasm for some reason). It's very favorable after board with crypt and StP.
Random aggro without permission: This is probably where StP would shine and matter the most. I'm already playing an anti-aggro deck though, so I probably have a favorable MU already. I'll just make it more favorable in games 2-3, unless they have some strong untargetability concept going on.
Random control without permission: I think I'll just race them. If they count on recurring some wincon fattie from the grave though, I'll most definetely board them in.
Random combo: Probably not very useful. I suppose survival decks could be considered combo-aggro, but I haven't seen a survival deck in my meta ever. If it comes up, there's also Abolish in the board. Oh, and if it's Solidarity we're talking about, I will surely die, but not because of the lack of StP.

I do agree here that they are 2 seperate things, and I would have much rather shown the average clock, but I have know way of knowing or proving what the average clock is. Quickest goldfish is the best objective measure of speed I have at my disposal. Regardless, those decks are faster than this one and manage to run more disruption, right?

No way of knowing, perhaps, but we can venture a guess. The average clock depends on the meta of course. The clock in a specific match-up depends on how much the decks interact. Goblins may have an average goldfish of turn 4, much like Solidarity. They don't interact very much at all since they have completely different game plans, which means that in a meta of only Goblins and Solidarity, we'll have average clocks of turn 4 for both decks.

This is a meta of only fast aggro and fairly slow combo, which averages out. Add semi-fast aggro-control to the mix (threshold), and the average clocks for goblins and solidarity get pushed back. Solidarity more so than goblins, and threshold eases in between them and claims its piece of the pie. Now add white aggro to the mix and it gets more complicated. Goblins get massively hosed, making thresh number one, which in turn hoses solidarity, which is good for white aggro with the bad solidarity match-up. And you have meta-balance once again. This brings me to your comment on disruption.

If I boarded out control creatures that are good in the meta like Razor Golem and Beloved Chaplain, in favor of Swords to Plowshares, would I be running more disruption? I don't think so. I would have switched a multi-purpose card for a single purpose card, albeit a very good one for its single purpose. What's to say StP and Parallax Wave is disruption whereas SoFI and Jitte is not? For an analogy, isn't Hypnotic Spectre disruptive? If not, why would you ever run a 2/2 flyer for 3 mana? I have all my control elements hidden in cards with aggressive potential, which is why you don't see them. A white deck could run 4 Savannah Lion and 4 Swords to Plowshares so it can attack and control creatures, or it could run 4 Beloved Chaplain for the same purpose. Which is the better choice depends on card synergy in the deck microcosm and meta game in the deck macrocosm. That's how I see it anyway.

Now for a revamped deck list. I've decided to go with Freewind Falcon since it merges Silver Knight and Soltari Priest in one card as far as the meta goes. I loose a point of power but gain 2 slots and effectively one 1 extra evasion creature and 1 extra goblins blocker, quite similarly to Beloved Chaplain's multi-purpose role in the deck. Chaplain is of course broade creature wise, but also easier to remove. Having a 2cc flyer is also handy against FS, backed-up with either mom or SoFI, and more flyers is very good against threshold with the new equipment toolbox since I can block Enforcer with SoLS.

LANDS (22)
22 Plains

CREATURES (23)
4 Suntail Hawk
4 Lantern Kami
4 Mother of Runes
4 Beloved Chaplain
4 Freewind Falcon
3 Razor Golem

OTHER SPELLS (15)
4 Orim’s Chant
4 Steelshaper’s Gift
4 Grafted Wargear
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawa’s Jitte

SIDEBOARD (15)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abolish
4 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Specter’s Shroud
1 Leonin Bola

Please tell me how you think the new list measures up. I think 2 more swords in the board would be nice (one of each, for match-up tweaking), but I don't know what to remove. I wouldn't mind an extra Razor Golem in the main either, but I'm getting quite rich on 3-drops... OTOH, there's always turn 4 and the golem is an even better turn 4-drop most of the time. Oh, one last thing:

How does this deck stand up to thresh or a dedicated control deck? 4 orim's chant will not win you the game against a deck running a board sweeper like wrath, deed ect.

Thresh is a very exciting match-up, since that's where the rogue nature of the deck is really exploited. UGr is pretty much the same every game and pretty favorable, but UGw depends a lot on the player knowing what he's up against. If he thinks he's playing WWW or AS, he will generally loose game one. If he names and saves counter for the right stuff (this means naming grafted wargear, countering silver bullet equipment like the swords and jitte, and ignoring possible StPs from me, while using his own on mom and beloved chaplain exclusively), the aggro race is in his favor, and he will win. Games 2 and 3 I bring in crypts and StP, which means he has too many things to worry about and can't afford to be picky, so at that point play skill matters the most I guess.

Board sweepers = very bad for me. Compared to other aggro decks though, I will still have massive equipment on the board and any one of my 1/1 creatures can become a fierce threat next turn. I usually have one creature in hand as it is, and if I expect a sweeper in the deck I'm playing against, I can hold two of them back and play it more safe. Equipment and Chant delay is my way to deal with this. It's still bad for me, but aggro decks must do what they can to control the damages from sweepers.

Keep the suggestions coming! Would love to hear how/if you think the new deck list amends the deficiencies pointed out earlier.

urdjur

12-14-2006, 05:41 AM

(This is strange. Somehow, PHP wouldn't register my last post, and the thread listed Phantom as the last poster and didn't bump the thread on my reply. This is the third time this happens to me, and I haven't had this problem on other php forums. Really hope this post goes into the system.)

Cait_Sith

12-14-2006, 09:08 AM

Vbulletein does that from time to time. No worries.

Maverick676

12-14-2006, 01:18 PM

Thresh is a very exciting match-up, since that's where the rogue nature of the deck is really exploited. UGr is pretty much the same every game and pretty favorable, but UGw depends a lot on the player knowing what he's up against. If he thinks he's playing WWW or AS, he will generally loose game one. If he names and saves counter for the right stuff (this means naming grafted wargear, countering silver bullet equipment like the swords and jitte, and ignoring possible StPs from me, while using his own on mom and beloved chaplain exclusively), the aggro race is in his favor, and he will win. Games 2 and 3 I bring in crypts and StP, which means he has too many things to worry about and can't afford to be picky, so at that point play skill matters the most I guess.

Board sweepers = very bad for me. Compared to other aggro decks though, I will still have massive equipment on the board and any one of my 1/1 creatures can become a fierce threat next turn. I usually have one creature in hand as it is, and if I expect a sweeper in the deck I'm playing against, I can hold two of them back and play it more safe. Equipment and Chant delay is my way to deal with this. It's still bad for me, but aggro decks must do what they can to control the damages from sweepers.

Keep the suggestions coming! Would love to hear how/if you think the new deck list amends the deficiencies pointed out earlier.

I don't think your analysis of the threshold matchup is that accurate. A deck that runs nothing but 1/1 creatures ,with the exception of razor golem, has no chance of winning against a deck like thresh. If your opponent is too dumb to counter your equipment then you MIGHT be able to win the game. However game 2 once needle and mage come into the picture I don't see how you could possibly pull off a victory, Your creatures all become sub-par speed bumps (the only big one being razor golem, which can be destroyed by the artifact hate that will probably be sided in).

urdjur

12-14-2006, 02:35 PM

It's not the fact that I'm running 1/1 creatures that's interesting, it's about which 1/1 creatures I'm running. I admit that if I ran 20 Tarpan, 3 Razor Golems and some equipment, this deck would not have a good thresh MU. But I'm not:

Mother of Runes: Can chump block anything, endlessly. Must be countered. Difficult to StP/bolt. Can also be used with a flyer, to block flyers.
Beloved Chaplain: Can also chump block anything, even without tapping down. Easier to remove than Mother of Runes, but a big problem in conjunction with her.
Freewind Falcon: Singlehandedly disables Fledgeling Dragon and can't be removed by UGr's removal.
Flyer+SoLS: Blocks Enforcer all day long and can't be StPd.
Razor Golem: Eats mongeese, equally unaffected by UGr's removal.

The only creatures that cannot handle Thresh's creatures are my 8 1-mana flyers, which I will use aggressively while the other creatures maintain board position. I have so many creatures compared to Thresh that I can afford to use a few of them to tie their beasts up. Then I can win at leisure with some insignificant 1/1 flyer with equipment. I suspect that they will sideboard hate against me, and I will sideboard hate against them, which maintains status quo. Hope that makes it clearer why I have a favorable Thresh match-up.

urdjur

12-14-2006, 04:12 PM

On an entirely different note, I've been thinking about replacing the Suntail Hawks with Roterothopters. Before you laugh, consider:

Advantages:
*2 Toughness means it's a formidable answer to turn 1 Lackey, despite Mogg Fanatic/Gempalm Incinerator.
*Pumps up to 2 power which gives me something to do with all those plains lying about after turn 4-6.
*It's an artifact instead of a white creature, which is only a benefit in this deck where any artifact removal would be directed elsewhere. Being an artifact creature instead of a white creature is relevant against many black cards and against Anarchy. Infact, with lots of equipment, razor golem and roterothopter, I might just survive an Anarchy against goblins.

Disadvantages:
*Does not deal damage without equipment or unpumped. This is really only relevant in the turn 2 attack.
*Deals one less damage than a 1/1 white flyer unpumped. The potential for pumping it to two with mana that would otherwise just sit there makes up for this in longer games though.

If you wonder why I drop Suntail Hawks instead of Lantern Kamis, it's just in case I would happen upon Rend Flesh. Tell me what you think. I'm presently about 70% in favor of going Roterothopter.

Phantom

12-14-2006, 04:30 PM

It certainly seems that you've thought it out. My only real problem is that it is an artifact, and while it is true that opponents will be generally pointing their hate elsewhere, you can be sure that they will be pointing it at whatever is hurting them most at the moment. Also, will you really have mana to devote to pumping? I was under the impression that you usually used all your mana for about your first 4-5 turns, but I guess you would know that much beeter than I would.

urdjur

12-14-2006, 04:51 PM

You're pretty accurate about the pump, I always have the mana to spend turn 6 and sometimes turn 5, but never turn 4. Hmm, an alternative is to go Ornithopter and drop the pump. The loss of damage will hurt in longer games, but in light of the "need-4-speed" discussed above, it might be really good.

Benefits:
*Play an evasion creature and fetch equipment with Gift turn one. This is huge, and comes up >16% of all matches.
*Play a threat and a blocker turn 1. Also very good.
*Bypass Chalice@1. Useful, but not a biggie in my meta.

Disadvantages (as compared to Roterothopter):
*Can't be pumped in the late game (what late game? ;) )
*Can't get counters on a Jitte without counters on its own (I can survive lack of synergy with one card in the deck)

I think I'm gonna go with Ornithopter then. Interestingly, this gives me the 4/3 and 3/4 flyers attacking on turn 3 of Faerie Stompy with my grafted wargear (kami and thopter, respectively).

How do you think the problems of speed and vulnerability to pithing needle have been amended now with the new list and recent changes - sufficiently or does more work need to be done for it to be competitive?

xsockmonkeyx

12-14-2006, 05:56 PM

On an entirely different note, I've been thinking about replacing the Suntail Hawks with Roterothopters.

1st, *sealclap* for the new list. White weenie flying has been my pet deck since Visions and Weatherlight came out and Im glad to see some meaningful discussion. BTW, Grafted Wargear is the shit. Good idea.

2nd, When is Roterothopter ever going to be better than plain old ornithopter? I use Roterothopter in my Affinity build (on top of Ornithopter) and the pumping ability rarely comes into play there. I doubt the possiblility of +1 for 2 mana is ever going to be worth the initial 1 mana investment in this deck. Roterothopter = 3 mana for the first 1 damage, 5 mana for the 2nd.

Isnt Abeyance going to do as much for you as Orim's Chant? If nothing else it cycles.

EDIT: What about 1x Bonesplitter or 1x Mask of Memory for your toolbox ? Also I really dont like the Golems. They seem counterproductive and rule out the possibility of wasteland. Golem or not I think Ancient Tomb should be in here. Would 2nd turn Wargear be any good?

Maverick676

12-15-2006, 01:28 AM

Finn

12-15-2006, 12:39 PM

...Sorry, but if you want this deck to approach viability you need better creatures.
Urdjur, do yourself a huge favor and test this stuff against a competent opponent. Maverick is right.

Mother of Runes: Can chump block anything, endlessly. Must be countered. Difficult to StP/bolt. Can also be used with a flyer, to block flyers.
Beloved Chaplain: Can also chump block anything, even without tapping down. Easier to remove than Mother of Runes, but a big problem in conjunction with her.

Beloved Chaplin? - Excellent synergy with Mother of Runes there. Wait. What exactly are you going for here?

(in response to why STP is not in the main) Vial Goblins: Most certainly not needed. I'll still board it in in favor of a 1 cc flyer simply because I know it will resolve (unless they board in Chalice) and has more potential in the match-up.

You know, the choices made by the people who designed Angel Stompy, WWW, etc were worked out with a lot of thought to other decks in the meta. Perhaps there will be a place for this sort of thing, but it is not now. Furthermore, and I'm trying hard not to sound condescending, but you really, really need some more experience before trying your hand at Legacy deckbuilding.

xsockmonkeyx

12-15-2006, 02:11 PM

LOL all these cards can be needled or STP'd, not to mention mage can ruin your ability to tutor up equipment. Sorry, but if you want this deck to approach viability you need better creatures.

How about suggesting some creatures or at least providing a better argument than "they can be teh STP'd"?:mad:

Cait_Sith

12-15-2006, 02:31 PM

Anything that can be targeted by STP and be STPd. Wow, I guess Gobs auto loses to STP then. I love the idea of Ornithopter. It is an excellent evasive chumper that can be pumped to turn into an attacker :)>

Iranon

12-15-2006, 07:27 PM

Your current decklist practically screams for an inclusion of Dawn Elemental and Pariah. Goblins in particular could be stopped dead in its tracks and would need to find an answer in a very short time since they can't actually do anything about most of your threats. It should be some good against UGr Thresh as well.

The main question is whether your environment is sufficently distorted to go that far; your creature base certainly looks like it.
The severe anti-synergy between Mothers and Chaplains bothers me as well so the chaplains would be closely monitored to see if they can pull their weight.

Are you trying to create a deck that can hold its own anywhere, or are you trying to beat the snot out of an unprepared metagame? If the former applies, my suggestions are probably not too helpful but to be honest I can't see you achieving that with your current approach anyway.

urdjur

12-16-2006, 04:42 AM

@xsockmonkeyx: Ancient Tomb and Ornithopter are definetely in. Incidentally, I have no double whites excepting the Orim's Chant kicker, so Tomb actually improves BOTH consistency and explosiveness.

@Maverick676: UGw Threshold is strong because it can mage/needle/counter/StP anything, but not everything. Look at Angel Stompy and consider that it too could be affected by thresh's counter measures, and it still had a pretty good thresh match-up.

@Finn: "Play against a competent opponent", "Get more deck-building experience"?! Come on, you can do better than this. If you have nothing constructive to add but feel a need to be patronizing and condescending, this forum is not an outlet for it.

@Iranon: Dawn Elemental is way too slow at 4cc. It's an independable drop for my clock. Pariah is solid against Goblins, but not quite as good against other decks, and as you say, Goblins are pretty screwed as is. I don't think it would hose random aggro more than the StP in the sideboard.

What is this severe anti-synergy between Mother of Runes and Beloved Chaplain that I'm failing to see? Chaplain's only vulnerability is removal, which mom helps against. I find this synergistic. Chaplain can hold his own against Goblins since all their removal is creature-based, and he's very good against any aggro deck since he can chump anything and has the needed evasion once equipped. This is especially important against UGx threshold, since he can stall goose and bear on his own, kill them with Grafted Wargear, and can't be blocked is he's wearing utility equipment. Of course he could be StP'd as most creatures can, but the back-up from mom and swords help and he's only a 2cc investment, so easy to replace.

Are you trying to create a deck that can hold its own anywhere, or are you trying to beat the snot out of an unprepared metagame? If the former applies, my suggestions are probably not too helpful but to be honest I can't see you achieving that with your current approach anyway.

It's a build designed for an aggro-control heavy meta where IGGy Pop is the combo deck of importance and Solidarity is not. You see the usual goblins too of course. It's rogue nature is mainly important against UGw Thresh that need to make many decisions on what to name (needle/mage), counter and StP. The "unprepared metagame" aspect is also important for lack of hate against the deck (exception: Anarchy in goblins, but I have artifact creatures and equipment). It should be able to handle/race most aggro in the current build, it has a quick clock and redundancy against control, and is not an auto-loose to combo (but it's by no means a favorable MU). If you see specific or general weaknesses, please point them out. Weakness to pithing needle was discussed before and has been amended. Lack of speed was too, and is really not an issue anymore as I can attack turn 2 with 4/3 or 3/4 flyers just like Faerie Stompy at present. Here's an updated build for reference:

LANDS (22)
18 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb

CREATURES (23)
4 Ornithopter
4 Lantern Kami
4 Mother of Runes
4 Beloved Chaplain
4 Freewind Falcon
3 Razor Golem

OTHER SPELLS (15)
4 Orim's Chant
4 Grafted Wargear
4 Steelshaper's Gift
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte

SIDEBOARD (15)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Abolish
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Specter's Shroud
1 Leonin Bola

Keep the constructive criticism coming!

Iranon

12-16-2006, 05:06 AM

The anti-synergy everyone is talking about: Protection from creatures means that Beloved Chaplain is not a legal target for any creature ability, including your own Mother of Runes. That means your opponent has a perfectly valid target for previously dead-ish cards if you have both Chaplain and Mother in play.
Sorry for pointing out the obvious if you were aware of this and considered it to be irrelevant, but it would bother me.

Phantom Lord

12-16-2006, 06:03 AM

If you are so worried about spot removal then maybe you should try Lightning Greaves. You could look for it with the Steelshaper's Gift, which is why I would run it over the protection enchaments. It also gives your creatures haste, so MoM + Greaves = goodness for your other creatures. *But remember that if she gets equiped, she can give herself protection since she cant be the target of spells/abilities.*

xsockmonkeyx

12-16-2006, 08:05 AM

Where is Jotun Grunt? I could easily see him replace the Razor Golems. He would provide more face beat at a better price and improve the thresh matchup some.

urdjur

12-16-2006, 11:51 AM

@Iranon, Phantom Lord and xsockmonkeyx

Interestingly enough, the answer to the various problems you bring up might be found in a synergistic solution. I'll offer it as a suggestion and see how you like it.

I can see how mom and chaplain have lack of synergy. I've considered them good battlefield control cards in their own right, but if I were to drop one of them, I would have to say mom. Even though I think she is one of the best 1cc creatures every printed, she simply doesn't work as well with the concept here as beloved chaplain.

Let's play with the thought of loosing mom. She would of course be replaced with the Suntail Hawks of the initial build, since I need a one drop. Now, adding Lightning Greaves to the toolbox (which I've tried with Leonin Shikari in a very different build, btw) is so-so as far as non-targetability goes. I already have pro:U/R/B/W in the toolbox, built into tutor targets that do so much more than non-targetability.

With the ability to protect (with swords) only those creatures that matter the most, there will be more trades on both sides, which means more cards in the graveyard and an ability to run Jötun Grunt more consistently. Adding Jötun Grunt instead of Razor Golem also allows me to run wasteland, for additional Jötun food and threshold hate. Since I only have one source of double white (which is an optional kicker cost at that), I can imitate goblins' mana base with 15 colored sources and 8 colorless lands, only I go for acceleration (tombs) instead of rishadan ports.

-4 Mother of Runes
-3 Razor Golem
-3 Plains
+4 Wasteland
+4 Suntail Hawk
+2 Jötun Grunt

This is less controllish and more crash and burn redundancy with some wasteland disruption, which could be just what I'm looking for to help my UGw Thresh match-up.

What do you think? I'll have to test if the new mana-base supports the build, but it should be alright.

P.S. There should be an extra Grunt in the sideboard of course, probably in favor of either one crypt or the bola.

xsockmonkeyx

12-16-2006, 04:13 PM

Im a big fan of the grunts and wastelands. I might go 2 grunts in the board and drop the Crypts. Grunt's 4/4 body combined with grave hate makes it the ultimate threshold trump.

Not so sure on the Suntail Hawks for Moms. If you are looking to go more offensive then maybe Soltari Foot Soldier is in order. I still like mom in here for her defense though.

I think now that the deck has evolved Orims Chant and STP need to trade places. At the very least it will get people to stop bitching.

Edit: your deck's name is now a misnomer :P How about some fetches or flagstones for extra Jotun food?

urdjur

12-16-2006, 06:47 PM

Im a big fan of the grunts and wastelands. I might go 2 grunts in the board and drop the Crypts. Grunt's 4/4 body combined with grave hate makes it the ultimate threshold trump.

Grunt > Tormod's Crypt in all match-ups except IGGy Pop. Then again, I might need the sideboard space (see below).

Not so sure on the Suntail Hawks for Moms. If you are looking to go more offensive then maybe Soltari Foot Soldier is in order. I still like mom in here for her defense though.

Nah, the foot sweat soldier is subpar. One way is to go wayfarer white weenie. This would mean trading the slots previously alloted to mom for wayfarers, that can fetch wastelands and (in games 2 and 3) land silver bullets from the sideboard. The benefit here is an alternative strategy. I'm basically combining "skies" with "WWW", and fighting two strategies is more difficult than fighting one. The downside, of course, is that the "skies" strategy becomes somewhat weaker if not all cards in the deck are devoted to it. What do you think?

I think now that the deck has evolved Orims Chant and STP need to trade places. At the very least it will get people to stop bitching.

"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform". Mark Twain, who also noted: "An Englishman is a person who does things because they have been tried before. An American is a person who does things because they haven't been tried before." I'm a Swede myself, so... The things is this deck is built around Orim's Chant, which is why it can afford to have a main deck answer to combo and still not suck against non-combo decks. If it turns out StP is more useful in a match-up, I can usually switch places in games 2 and 3. In some match-ups (such as IGGy Pop) I will run both in games 2 and 3.

How about some fetches or flagstones for extra Jotun food?

If I go wayfarer, a flagstone is a given for its Armageddon resilience. Many people think wayfarer and fetches are über tech, but when you try it out, it turns out normal plains are just as good (I've explained this in other threads on the forum). The deckthinning, as stated previously, is insignificant, so the only reason to run them would be the occasional benefit with Jötun. Not sure the drawbacks of the fetches make up for this though.

Edit: your deck's name is now a misnomer :P

Very true, though I'll refrain from coming up with another name until I've settled on a deck list.

xsockmonkeyx

12-16-2006, 07:03 PM

One way is to go wayfarer white weenie. This would mean trading the slots previously alloted to mom for wayfarers, that can fetch wastelands and (in games 2 and 3) land silver bullets from the sideboard. The benefit here is an alternative strategy. I'm basically combining "skies" with "WWW", and fighting two strategies is more difficult than fighting one. The downside, of course, is that the "skies" strategy becomes somewhat weaker if not all cards in the deck are devoted to it. What do you think?

I think the Wayfarer is also counterproductive. This deck wants to beat face not toolbox you with cute tricks.

Second, the foot-soldier would be at least on par with suntail hawk #5-8. Especially if STP is in the main (number of lackey answers). What I would like to see return is Soltari Priest. Nothing carries equipment like the priest and this is an equipment deck no?

Finally, I think that 4x Flagstones would be strong with the Grunt in the deck. Is the "comes into play tapped" clause too much of a burden?

tivadar

12-16-2006, 07:19 PM

Grunt > Tormod's Crypt in all match-ups except IGGy Pop. Then again, I might need the sideboard space (see below).

Let's see, shall we?

Survival: Crypt is better
Threshold: Grunt is better
Crucible decks: Crypt is better
Loam: Depends, they can cast loam then cycle in response to grunt, but grunt is probably better a majority of the time

My experience is actually the opposite, Crypt is better than grunt generally against graveyard strategies, however, grunt is more generally good against most matchups, and also very strong against the threshold matchup. Not that I'm arguing against Grunt, he's amazing, just saying his place is the mainboard I believe.

Keep in mind also, this deck is shut down by artifact removal/null rod. This is a BIG problem, since all the creatures in your deck (pre-grunt) suck when unequipped. This is one of Angel Stompy's biggest problems, if threshold can control their equipment and get a threshed goose out, they have a big advantage. However, AS at least can play angel. This deck does not have this, and I can't see it being competitive because of that. Razor Golem is ok, but it's nowhere near the power of an angel.

Zilla

12-16-2006, 07:57 PM

Razor Golem is ok, but it's nowhere near the power of an angel.
Incidentally, the new build of Angel Stompy I've been testing for the last few weeks runs both Angel and Razor Golem. Both are fantastic creatures. The thing is, in a deck like this, which is rapidly becoming more and more like Angel Stompy (except that Pyroclasm and Null Rod wreck it) I can't think of a practical argument against running Angel in it. With 4x Ancient Tomb in the mix, why wouldn't you run it?

urdjur

12-17-2006, 08:29 AM

Has Exalted Angel really helped you in a threshold match-up? I'm asking this since one of my main reasons from removing the angel was that it made me loose threshold matches.

If you hard cast it, they will counter your six mana investment for peanuts. Since you at least want to have daze protection available when doing so (if you haven't seen like 2-3 dazes in the game already), you'll be wanting to drop 6 lands (if we assume one of them is a tomb) before casting it, which is slow.

OTOH, if you morph it and get away with it, rest assured they will StP it when you flip it up, nullifying your 7 mana investment with a 1 mana card. That's a huge setback that made me loose far more games to threshold than having my measly equipment get disabled. Playing against UGr thresh is a bit better, since they bolt it while morphed, before you flip it, saving you the mid-game setback. Meddling Mage on angel is actually a good thing, since that at least saves you the angst of casting it. Then, when you try to StP the mage, they will counter the StP instead, which is a much better trade (unfortunately, angel is then a dead card in hand, but it imprints on mox and pictches to mask). Even if you manage to play and keep it successfully in the late game when they're momentarily out of counters and removal, there is still the issue that their huge flyers will block and kill it. Mom helps here of course by bestowing protection (as does SoFI), but that means that mom is actually the good card against threshold here, not exalted angel.

Exalted Angel is a great card against so many other aggro decks, but the investment really hurts against threshold. I think the reason I'm disagreeing with many of the posters here is that the threshold match-up is of far greater concern to me than goblins or random aggro. Sure, they come up too, but Angel is really win more against goblins. You have so many other ways to defeat them.

The first thing on my to-do-list when trying to improve the threshold match-up was to drop anything with heavy investment. I turned to cheap, expendable threats, redundancy and resilience. Unfortunately, I was a fool to keep SoFI and Jitte in a Steelshaper's toolbox, and a greater fool to rely on them so heavily, since they are also clear examples of investment that can be easily disabled to boot. Swords to Plowshares is probably the way to go here - it will be anticipated and countered, but at least it will only have cost me 1 mana to draw that counter. I will simply have to come to terms with that its role in the thresh MU is not to remove threats, but to draw counters.

This makes me want to run BOTH Jötun Grunt and Razor Golem in the same deck, since I want some cheap, heavy beaters in case my cheap equipment gets disabled. Since everything costs so little mana, I also need a draw engine to put my mana to good use and overwhelm the threshold draw. Mask of Memory is an obvious answer with all the evasion creatures, and it has great synergy with Grunt, plus all those plains make great discards. I've also decided to go Mother of Runes instead of Beloved Chaplain, since mom is better against thresh while chaplain is better against goblins. Moms ability to grant evasion through protection is also very good with the big beaters. I still think I have a good shot at beating goblins with StP, freewind falcon, mom and whatnot.

Here's a new deck list. It's a less mana-intensive version of Angel Stompy really. The lions and isamaru are evasion creatures with one less power in this list. The face beating power of angels and 2/x creatures has been redistributed on Grunt, Razor Golem and Grafted Wargear. All mana intensive bombs have been dropped, in favor of drawing power and cheap bombs. I'm liking how it handles and think it's better suited for threshold, without sacrificing too much in the goblins MU. Tell me what you think:

18 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb

4 Lantern Kami
4 Soltari Foot Soldier
4 Mother of Runes
4 Freewind Falcon
3 Jötun Grunt
3 Razor Golem

4 Orim's Chant
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Mask of Memory
4 Grafted Wargear

(Sideboard needs more work)

xsockmonkeyx

12-17-2006, 03:10 PM

urdjur

12-17-2006, 04:36 PM

I like the new list. It keeps getting better an better IMO. Personally Im a big fan of Mask of Memory. The foot soldiers seems justified here to help push the mask through but like you said they are kind of lackluster otherwise. I would watch that slot since the chaplains are out and you may need the defense of suntail hawk/ornithopter. Besides, Hawk + Mother of Runes is still good.

I really like the Razor Golems and the Jotun Grunts in the same build for some reason. Ground beef seemed like a premium in the previous lists.

Yup, the need for ground beef is a recurring insight of mine as I test the various builds. 10-12 creatures that can control the battlefied is needed. Mom fills 4 of those with Chaplain gone, and the grunts and golems do the rest. Other things include at least 12 evasion creatures, and at least 12 turn 1 drops (not counting the instants) for consistency reasons. Mom is a turn 1 drop, and where chaplain had evasion, she can bestow evasion on other creatures instead (and more). With these "needs" in mind, the foot soldier slot can only really be:
a) Soltari Foot Soldier (duh)
b) Suntail Hawk (that is, Lantern Kamis 5-8)
c) Ornithopter

Ornithopter was good when I had 11 equipment slots and could need to spend W on a fetch turn 1. Now I only have 8 slots for equipment, and 4 of those are masks, which are useless on thopter. Suntail Hawk is an additional Lackey answer, but I have 12 already (kami, mom, StP). With Chaplain out of the picture as an alternative means of evasion, I feel I need the shadow not to have my game plan wrecked against other decks with many flyers. Evasion through mom protection helps here too, of course.

Orim's Chant still looks out of place. Can you tell me why it still remains a slot here or at least explain why it is superior to Abeyance in this build. Thanks!

Its main use is to seal the kill when cast in opponent's upkeep. They can't drop new creatures or attack. Without all the evasion, my second attack could be thwarted since they get to untap, but with this build I essentially get to attack twice for the kill.

Against combo it's better than Abeyance since I worry about IGGy Pop, and it can go off turn 1/2, which chant stops, but abeyance doesn't. Chant also has use as a multi-purpose "Aether Vial" that lasts one turn and lets you resolve StP or Grunt against threshold, either by denying them counters or drawing their (hopefully single) counter so that the real threat can be played.

I'm looking for something in the sideboard to replace StP. Parallax Wave, Jitte or something else? Crypt and Abolish are the only things I'm settled on thus far.

xsockmonkeyx

12-17-2006, 04:56 PM

I think Glowrider should get a place in the sideboard to fight combo. You can have him in play on turn 2 backed up my Mom vs. Iggy. Solidarity can still go EOT cunning wish -> wipe away though.:frown:

urdjur

12-17-2006, 06:01 PM

That's a very good tip. It could be useful against IGGy on its own, but the acceleration and mom makes it quite viable. What's more though is that affects many other decks too. Paying 2cc for all thresh's draw spells really sucks, it postpones wrath one turn more etc.

*Abolish
*Tormod's Crypt
*Glowrider

And something anti-aggro to round it out I think. Suggestions?

xsockmonkeyx

12-18-2006, 01:00 AM

Moat would be an absolute bomb if it werent so damn expensive. A moat in play would pretty much be gg for goblins, zoo.

n00bas4urus_r3x

12-18-2006, 01:21 AM

ghostly prison is a solid aggro hoser, especially when dropped on turn 2 off of a tomb

urdjur

12-18-2006, 08:51 AM

Even though this is a "skies" deck, I only have 8 flyers in it. Moat is risky and too narrow. Ghostly Prison is quite nice for its mana cost and should be adequate against most aggro-decks.

I've also contemplated Worship, since it also stops direct damage and is nice with Mother of Runes. The drawback here is that all of these are white permanents, which is a bad thing against Goblins. Looking at the clock and sideboard, Goblins seems to be the main aggro deck I need strengthening against (and Faerie Stompy, but it's less frequent).

Don't get me wrong here - I will win against Goblins most game 1s. The problem is if/when they bring in non-red removal (Stp/Disenchant and especially Jitte that wrecks mom and pro:R falcon) or Anarchy. At that point, I will be needing a big hoser of my own, that can withstand the Goblin sideboard.

Tivadar's Crusade is a simple but narrow answer. A more attractive solution is perhaps Parallax Wave. It can save my creatures from mass death or spot removal, remove weenie blockers for an alpha strike (a good thing even against the occasional Faerie Stompy, with its flyers, though they can pithe it), or lock down fatties for an extended time period. I think I'm gonna go with:

SIDEBOARD (15)
4 Abolish
4 Glowrider
4 Parallax Wave
3 Tormod's Crypt (while I play against many graveyard strategies, I have main deck Grunts and there is such a thing as enough graveyard hate.)

If you now look at the updated deck list (the post of Dec. 17) and sideboard, are there any glaring holes or flaws? I know I have a bad Solidarity match-up, but besides that.

Cheers!

Finn

12-18-2006, 09:05 AM

Getting there. Parallax Wave is a splendid choice. As soon as you tweak a few more little things, you will have built a solid deck. And then this game of "The derivation of Angel Stompy" can end in a big fat merge.

http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2635

Incidently, if you could manage 4 Glowriders and 4 True Believers, you could probably sneak in some victories against both Solidarity and Iggy without Tormod's Crypt.

urdjur

12-18-2006, 11:19 AM

I would like not to run Crypt and Grunt since they have anti synergy but are good hosers in their own right. Having more than 4 graveyard hate slots is only relevant against IGGy Pop though, and true believer gives me some added burn and duress protection, plus it's better against random combo. How about:

4 Abolish
4 Parallax Wave
3 True Believer
3 Glowrider
1 Jötun Grunt

Remember I have Orim's Chant main deck as a quick answer to turn 1/2 kills. Glowrider+True Believer prevents turn 2-4 kills and Grunt makes it more difficult to recover. That should be enough. Glowrider and believer have uses against other decks too.

As soon as you tweak a few more little things, you will have built a solid deck.

Is this re: the sideboard or the main deck as well? If the main could use tweaks too, I'm all ears.

end in a big fat merge

Nothing would make me happier if the teachings of this thread could be used in a restarted AS discussion. Perhaps I'll make a summary post in the old thread when we're done here, so as not to make our efforts go to waste.

xsockmonkeyx

12-19-2006, 02:21 AM

This is the list Im working on. Im trying maindeck Glowrider to see how useful it is vs. random decks.

Vanilla Sky

4 Ancient Tomb
18 Plains

4 Suntail Hawk
1 Lantern Kami
4 Mother of Runes

4 Freewind Falcon AKA "the chicken"
4 Silver Knight

2 Jötun Grunt
4 Razor Golem
4 Glowrider

4 Swords to Plowshares

3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Mask of Memory
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Side
4 Disenchant
4 True Believer
2 Jotun Grunt
4 Ghostly Prison
1 Jitte

Jitte provides much better board position than the Battlegear but it is not as explosive. I dropped the Foot Soldier/Kami slot for Priests because 2nd turn Battlegear isnt an option.

On another note, Razor Golem has been suprisingly good.

urdjur

12-19-2006, 04:26 AM

On another note, Razor Golem has been suprisingly good.

Glad you're liking it too!

This is the list Im working on. Im trying maindeck Glowrider to see how useful it is vs. random decks.

I prefer Umezawa's Jitte to Battlegear because Mask of Memory does nothing to help your board. Jitte provides much better board position than the Battlegear but it is not as explosive. I dropped the Foot Soldier/Kami slot for Priests because 2nd turn Battlegear isnt an option.

(Just so you know, your list is 59 cards.)

By inspection, I think your list will be better in a meta with more goblins and solidarity and less threshold and IGGy Pop. Glowrider is fast enough to stop Solidarity and since it adds to your clock, you may just pull a turn 5 win.

As for Jitte vs. Battlegear, you can cast and equip gear on turn 2 and swing for three more. You can cast and equip Jitte on turn 3 and use the counters offensively on turn 4, for an extra 4 damage. By then, Battlegear will have dealt 9 damage, however.

There's also the issue that you need 4 mana (tomb+3 plains or 4 plains) to cast it, which isn't at all as certain on turn 3-4 as 3 mana on turn 2-3. Since Jitte doesn't add to the power/toughness immediately, you also have to count on your 1/1 weenies to survive long enough to accumulate counters. If they don't, you'll have to pay that 2 equip cost again, setting you back further.

I'm not saying Jitte is bad here, it's just not something I would look to resolve early and win with in this sort of deck. You'll probably want to equip it on Razor Golem or something big like that, get a few counters on it so you can clear a cluttered board, and then go for the kill. By then we're looking at resolving a turn 6-8 stalemate though, rather than killing quickly. You might do a 3/3/2 split on mask/wargear/jitte if you want to keep explosiveness and be able to mop the board up if you find yourself in a locked position.

As for Priest vs. Foot Soldier, it's an issue of not having enough turn 1 drops, rather than conflicting turn 2 drops. I found myself not using my turn 1 mana too often with only 8 1cc creatures. Do you think it's working out? (It's also good to be able to keep a 2 land hand with plains+tomb, which works so-so with priest). Also wondering how the 3/3 split in golem/grunt is suiting you. I'm sometimes finding I'd prefer 4 golems and 2 grunts, and thought you might be even more inclined to go this route since you have more permanents than I do.

Btw: Why Disenchant over Abolish? Abolish is teh shit against CotV@2, and you have so many plains to discard to it, plus Mask will help fix a bad "plains-to-abolish" ratio. It's also quicker (you can cast it turn 0), doesn't make you keep mana open if you need the instant speed and feeds grunt more than disenchant. :cool:

xsockmonkeyx

12-19-2006, 04:43 AM

(Just so you know, your list is 59 cards.)

Doh.

I think that 2 Grunts and 4 Golems would be OK. The 3rd Grunt could be justified in a heavy Thresh environment. They are nice to have multiples if your opponant is packing removal/counter but otherwise more than one can be excessive.

My strongest argument for not running Battlegear right now is that I dont have any :P Also, Im trying out the Priest in the Foot Soldier/Kami to see if it has any strength here. It may be superfluous with Freewind Falcon in the deck.

Abolish is OK. I run Disenchant because its like my favorite card evar.

Zilla

12-19-2006, 06:04 AM

urdjur

12-19-2006, 08:05 AM

Glowrider alone won't be enough to steal games against Solidarity. Armageddon in the board is probably a good idea for this reason. It helps a lot against board control decks like Landstill, MWC, and MBC as well, and these are matchups that need help. Incidentally, this is probably a good reason to run Seal of Cleansing over Disenchant, since it has synergy with 'geddon.

[...]

One last thing: The current build of Angel Stompy runs an identical manabase to this deck, with one exception: I run a single copy of Flagstones of Trokair over the 18th Plains. I understand that it has poor synergy with Razor Golem, but I run 4 of those in my build and it's never a problem. The reason I bring it up is because if you do end up running Armageddon in your sideboard, it's got excellent synergy with that.

Going Armageddon/Cleansing/Flagstone is probably the wise thing to do if you see a lot of (permission light) control and solidarity in your meta.

The lack of Silver Knight is pretty suspect though. I know you're concentrating on beating Thresh, but Knight is absolutely key against Goblins.

But I have Freewind Falcon instead. AS runs Soltari Priest and Silver Knight. Silver Knight is MVP against goblins (at least I think so), whereas Soltari Priest is generally more useful against other aggro decks thanks to evasion. The pro:R is always useful in the format, it's just that evasion is better when you don't care about trading and not being shadow is alot better when every trade is pure card advantage.

Now look at Freewind Falcon. It is all of those things in one card, and a 1W instead of WW, meaning you can keep 2 land hands with 1 white source. It's also flying, which means it chumps Fledgling Dragon. The only thing you loose is the 2 power that enables you to kill the stronger goblins in combat. AS is so good because mom can kill x/1 goblins and live while knight can kill x/2 goblins and live. However, I have Razor Golem, Jötun Grunt and Wargear to make up for this, so it should be alright.

I strongly suspect Goblins is going to be a tough matchup for you, especially if they're running Jittes of their own.

So do I, and it would mean bringing in Abolish in games 2-3 since it can target both Vial and Jitte. So far I haven't seen any goblins deck running them though. But I have seen Anarchy in their sideboards, so I hope Razor Golem and Parallax Wave will help me there.

As for Angel in the Thresh matchup, I'm not sure I agree. Yes, it can be countered, and it can be Swordsed, but so can nearly every other card in your deck. Angel can kill every threat in their deck besides Enforcer and stick around to tell the tale. It can also chump an Enforcer in a pinch, or force them to hold back their Enforcer as a chump blocker which carries you to the lategame. I find it very important in the long game against Thresh, and it's certainly not always going to be countered. You also have Mother of Runes to cover your ass against Swords to some degree. If it's really that bad against Thresh, then side it out for Crypts or something post board. It's just so solid in every other matchup that its exclusion from a deck like this gonna be a really really tough argument to support.

Nevertheless, I support it, and it's not just Angel but the concept of investment overall in a meta heavy with free-bee permission and 1-mana creature removal. In such an environment, using your mana for cheap spells, draw and card advantage is better than playing increasingly expensive but more potent spells. Just look at goblins and threshold. I can clearly see how it's controversial though. Even if you disagree, I'm very happy that you've seen the argument and taken it into consideration, so I won't be needing to repeat it or this deck list in the old Angel Stompy thread before you restart it.

Here is what I'd like to think is the final deck list. I was left with a single sideboard slot and decided to put a Gaea's Blessing there for good measure. It does nothing against Solidarity on its own, but I can support it with glowrider/chant and my decent clock, plus it's useful against their partial brainfreeze strategy.

Thanks to all contributors!

LAND (22)
18 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb

CREATURES (22)
4 Lantern Kami
4 Soltari Foot Soldier
4 Mother of Runes
4 Freewind Falcon
4 Razor Golem
2 Jötun Grunt

OTHER SPELLS (16)
4 Orim's Chant
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Mask of Memory
4 Grafted Wargear

SIDEBOARD (15)
4 Abolish
4 Parallax Wave
4 Glowrider
2 Jötun Grunt
1 Gaea's Blessing

(Updating post 1 with this too)

xsockmonkeyx

12-22-2006, 01:19 AM

I was doing some testing today against aggro builds (Goblins, RGB Zoo and 9 Land Stompy) The Razor Golems and Jotun Grunts are absolutely spectacular here as they are usually the biggest creatures on the board, barring Flesh Reaver. The Golems are particularly stellar; vigilence on a 3/4 body is the shit for your side of the ground game.

I also felt Jitte to be key. I found that if you can get Umezawa's Jitte with 2 counters and any kind of board it is going to be very hard for them to win. The Jitte effectively breaks a lot of stalemates and makes comebacks more than possible. If you do not mainboard Jitte then I recommend them for your board for these matchups.

Silver Knight >> than Priest in these matchups.

Tacosnape

12-22-2006, 10:22 PM

On an entirely different note, I've been thinking about replacing the Suntail Hawks with Roterothopters.

If I lose to a Roterothopter at the Grand Prix this year, I will destroy every magic card in existence.

Man, with things like Mask, Wargear, and Jitte, it's so tempting to splash red for Boros Swiftblade and throw the Wargear on a Bushi Tenderfoot.

torgar

02-08-2007, 12:53 AM

Is there any reason why you're not running Shade of Trokair?

It's the white Nantuko with suspend. I think it's perfect for 8a mono-white beats deck.

nightmaster

02-17-2007, 02:12 PM

There is no shade because it is too slow. The earliest it can attack is turn four if you suspend. And that is wasting turn one instead of playing a creature that can attack turn two.

I have a deck very similar to this one. Here is what I have found. First although Razor Golem is nice it also turns there artifact removal into creature removal. Second, either he does get removed or he is just chumpblocked all day. Instead I use Serra Avenger. She comes out a turn later but she also costs two on turn four like golem. Also she flies which gives more evasion. Finally, her with grafted wargear is too big for even exalted angel. Even without wargear, with mom she can stall exalted angel. This also applies to Faerie Stompy.

Next I run a pair of disenchant MD. Here is why. If the opponent plays worship then you lose. It also takes care of opposing Jitte and such. It helps against affinity so you don't need to swords Ravager where they can gain tons of life while you only lose because of Disciple. And if a deck has some big powerful artifact or enchantment then away it goes.