[New Deck Discussion] Sligh

[Clark Kant]

A major question at hand is whether Keldon Brigand is good enough to be a 4 of in Burn and Sligh decks.

I quite think so. Even if your opponent trades a card to prevent it from dealing 3 damage, it still deals 2 damage (compare with Mogg Fanatic which only deals 1), which is pretty damn good. And many players hesistate to trade a solid card for a creature that's dying next turn anyways. So it will often deal 5 damage for just 2 mana.

It even has good synergy with Flamebreak. A post Flamebreak Brigand can be golden, as can a Flamebreak post Brigand's attack phase.

------------------------------

Yes Goblins is generally considered the premier mono red deck of legacy. But normal sligh does have a number of advantages.

1.) It dodges the massive amounts of goblin hate that the format sees(Engineered Plague, Tivardar of Thorn etc.)

2.) It lets you finish off your opponent with burn if they manage to stablize with an Infest or multiple Propaganda or something.

3.) Fireblast is the greatest finisher ever made.

4.) Keldon Brigand
Creature - Human Warrior (C)
Vanishing 2 (This creature comes into play with 2 time counters on it. At the beginning of your upkeep, remove a time counter from it. When you remove the last, sacrifice it.)
When Keldon Brigand comes into play or leaves play, it deals 1 damage to target player.
3/3

actually makes a decent addition to both Burn and Sligh.

It's akin to Mogg Fanatic in that even if it trades with a Swords, Bolt, or Mongoose, it deals 2 damage to the opponent and costs them a very valuable card. If it attacks it deals 5 damage to the opponent for five mana.

It even works well with Flamebreak, since ir can usually flamebreak after the attack phase. Or a flamebreak prior to this clears away blockers.

I think it's a great addition to Burn. But this thread isn't about Burn, it's about Sligh, which I believe also benefit from this card.

The deck's burn core...

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Magma Jet
4 Fireblast

This leaves 20 slots that can be filled up with any combination of creatures or burn.

Here are our options from best to worst IMO...

Creatures:

Jackal Pup
Mogg Fanatic
Keldon Brigand
Slith Firewalker
Grim Lavamancer
Mogg Flunkies
Goblin Cadets

One Hit Damage:

Lava Spike
Incinerate
Price of Progress
Flame Rift
Spark Elemental
Ball Lightning

In your opinion, which of the above cards make the cut?

Is four Fireblast one too many, esp in a deck that wins with creatures?

Is Slith Firewalker really as good as every sligh player thinks he is? Frankly, I don't see it.

For reference, here's what my build would look like post PC...

18 Mountain

//Beats
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Jackal Pup
4 Slith Firewalker
4 Keldon Brigand

//Burn
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Magma Jet
3 Incinerate
3 Fireblast

Is Grim Lavamancer indeed too slow, seeing as how it needs you to fill the yard, and still only deals two damage a turn?

What would you run instead?

And just for fun, here's a burn build with the card...

18 Mountain

//Beats
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Keldon Brigand

//Burn
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Magma Jet
4 Flame Rift
4 Flamebreak
3 Incinerate
3 Fireblast

[outsideangel]

"New Deck Discussion: Sligh" is a massive oxymoron...

What's your goldfish like? In Legacy, aggressive decks need to be able to kill earlier than turn four in order to compete with Solidarity and be faster than Goblins.

You've attempted to justify Sligh vs. Goblins, but what about Sligh vs. RDW?

Sligh is good at precisely one stage in the game: the early game. Do you think that stuff like Jackal Pup is strong enough to win before you hit the midgame?

RDW tends to incorporate mana disruption like Wasteland, Rishadan Port and Tangle Wire as a way to stall the game in the early stages where it shines, keeping the opponent off-balance for long enough to seal the deal.

Your deck has no disruption and little to no late game, which means that all you can do is race. Is this deck fast, strong, and consistent enough to make racing a viable game plan?

Also, there's next to no reason not to run a few Barbarian Rings. (If they Wasteland one, they've kept the mana development static for a turn, so meh)

[Ta Jugs]

Why not splash green for kird ape and rancor? Or why not just try to build a deck like boros deck wins over this.

[GreenOne]

I really like red decks in the form of Slight/RDW, and tested them for quite a long time many months ago.
The problems with them as far as I noticed are:
- Combo is really a mess. Solidarity is going to race you much more than you do and for other faster combo you're a Bye.
- Threshold is not such a good matchup. You can beat face for the first 2 turns, but after that their monsters are huge (untargettability is great here) and yours are too small. UGw is nice. UGr is really not a good matchup.
- Goblin is not a good matchup. They can just beatdown faster than you unless you can make a huge Slith. Their card advantage machine wrecks you in the mid-long game, and fanatic can take almost every creature on your side. Pyrokinesis is just a one sided wrath with added DMG from Pup.
- Burn wrecks you if they can resolve a Flamebreak (post side they have Pyroclasm too). In that matchup you're playing like a bad-burn build.

Sight has a good matchup vs Control. However control is not so present in the format..

Other red decks are just better in almost any matchup, so, sadly, there's no place for Sligh in this format at the moment.. :frown:

[kicks_422]

Dryad Sligh is, I believe, the best incarnation of Sligh. I used to have Volt work with me there before he went off to work with his Slivers... :tongue:

Here's the *buried* thread for it: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3759

I can't find the old Sligh thread, I had most of my thoughts posted there... Basically, I don't think that a mono-red version could go the distance. It WILL steal some games because of its awesome speed, but will always fall to the big guns.

With Dryad Sligh, you actually HAVE a late game. Quirion Dryad and Slith Firewalker become HUGE if left unchecked, and could win games on their own with burn clearing their path. Grim Lavamancer is another threat; though it looks pretty lame sitting in the corner, the damage it deals piles up.

I don't like Jackal Pup. Maybe in Vintage, but not in Legacy. It's drawback has become too much of an issue. People keep on saying that this is Sligh, that if you'll be worried about blocking, then you've practically lost the game etc., but sometimes, blocking IS needed to buy you a turn to topdeck that oh-so-sexy Fireblast.

Naturalize/Krosan Grip is a no-brainer in the SB. You don't really need to kill every artifact/enchantment that helps your opponent to win, you just need to kill those that stop them from winning. Kind of like the Phoenix Suns' philosophy of "we can stop you more than you can stop us."

Fireblast is a good finisher (a great one), but you really shouldn't hold it back if you need it to clear the way for your critters. Sligh's curve tops at 2, so ditching extra mountains for a mid-game (for this deck, Turn 4-5) Fireblast is perfectly acceptable.

RDW is also a great build of red, but I frankly think that it's too fragile for the format. It can't answer Thresh's dudes, too slow for Solidarity/Iggy, and Vial just about wrecks the whole deck's strategy.

Mono-red can't cut it because it easily runs out of gas, and has no answer to hate. RDW won't be a force any time soon with Goblins around. I've been very successful with Dryad Sligh for some time now, partly because I've been playing Sligh since way back, and the green splash has really plugged in some holes that the deck was missing.

Here's my list for reference:

4 Taiga
2 Stomping Ground
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Mountain (should be Uninged foils :tongue:)

4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Kird Ape
4 Quirion Dryad
4 Slith Firewalker

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Seal of Fire
4 Incinerate
4 Magma Jet
4 Fireblast

SB
4 Pyroblast
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Naturalize/Krosan Grip
3 Tormod's Crypt

Edit: In response to the above post, I DO outrace Solidarity, go around 50/50 against White Thresh (unless they run Worship MD), go a bit better than 50/50 against Red Thresh, and around 70/30 against mono-red Goblins (where 8 potential big ones in Dryads and Sliths are huge, also against Burn). Goblins splashing white for StP have been just above 50/50 for me.

Pyrostatic Pillars are of course mainly for combo, but boarding them in against Thresh has won me so many games.

[Cavius The Great]

Dryad Sligh sucks. I have a version of Sligh I came up with that made Top8 in a local tourney a month ago. I call it "Cavius Sligh" because the deck is kind of unique. It can win on turn 3 (with a good hand) and the deck consistantly wins by turn 4. I was planning to start a thread on it after GP:Colombus or the next local monthly tourney I go to. The deck is quite good and has alot of synergy. Be on the lookout for that thread in like a month or so.

[kirdape3]

The only card that makes me want to play any deck like this is Cursed Scroll. If you have it, you can maintain parity with Goblins and finish off stalled boards from every other deck. If you don't, you are simply far too fragile to compete. Every Standard and Extended red deck had them, including Gordon's at Kansas City when the field was dominated by the real High Tide decks. If you think that raw speed will carry the day, you won't win a lot of matches.

As for the splash, I don't see any reason whatsoever to not play a solid two colors. Boros Deck Wins is one of the top decks in both Extended and Standard, and it has more than enough capability to devastate Goblins (and up to 8 blasts to annoy High Tide) with a medium to strong Threshold game.

[Cavius The Great]

If you think that raw speed will carry the day, you won't win a lot of matches.

I've won plenty of matchups with shear speed and I'm confident that I can win many more. Fuck disruption and counters, there's alot of decks in the format that fold to pure speed. I build aggro decks based around the theory that, if you can't deal with my threats, my threats become equivalent to most forms of disruption and they will kill you eventually if they're not dealt with.

Sligh isn't a combo deck that needs to resolve two cards to win. Combo decks need disruption for the simple fact that a counterspell or stifle ruins their day. I don't feel the need that Sligh would necessarily need disruption because every single card in the deck helps you win. If they counter one of my creatures that's a one for one trade and I'll simply follow up with another one. You counter a key spell against any combo deck and it's crippling. So all in all, I disagree with that statement. You can build a decent aggro deck without any obvious forms of disruption. Add to that, most forms of disruption slow down the goldfish rate of a deck significantly and that's a very negative aspect. That's something you should always keep in mind when you're deckbuilding.

[Clark Kant]

Good feedback everyone.

But I need to be able to use this deck in Five Color as well, so it has to stay monored if possible, and the only reason I'm switching to this deck is because I was getting sick of playing burn (and everyone hates goblin players here).

Now that I've thought about it Keldon Brigand [PC] is a pretty decent sligh card, even with Vanishing being worse than Fading. It still gets in 5 damage for two mana in just two turns.

I think I might run him over Lavamancer.

The focus of this deck is speed. I want to either successfully beat face by turn 3-4 or lose or possibly topdeck a burn even after my opponent has stalled the board, and win anyways.

Combo should be racable, this deck is faster than burn if it faces no blockers afterall. And Pillars come in from the side to help that matchup too.

[kicks_422]

Dryad Sligh sucks.

Care to explain that? Have you even tried out the deck?

[outsideangel]

I've won plenty of matchups with shear speed and I'm confident that I can win many more. Fuck disruption and counters, there's alot of decks in the format that fold to pure speed. I build aggro decks based around the theory that, if you can't deal with my threats, my threats become equivalent to most forms of disruption and they will kill you eventually if they're not dealt with.

Sligh isn't a combo deck that needs to resolve two cards to win. Combo decks need disruption for the simple fact that a counterspell or stifle ruins their day. I don't feel the need that Sligh would necessarily need disruption because every single card in the deck helps you win. If they counter one of my creatures that's a one for one trade and I'll simply follow up with another one. You counter a key spell against any combo deck and it's crippling. So all in all, I disagree with that statement. You can build a decent aggro deck without any obvious forms of disruption. Add to that, most forms of disruption slow down the goldfish rate of a deck significantly and that's a very negative aspect. That's something you should always keep in mind when you're deckbuilding.


It's worth noting that there are no successful pure aggro decks in this format. (Unless you count Burn :wink:)

[vigilante]

Dryad Sligh sucks. I have a version of Sligh I came up with that made Top8 in a local tourney a month ago. I call it "Cavius Sligh" because the deck is kind of unique. It can win on turn 3 (with a good hand) and the deck consistantly wins by turn 4. I was planning to start a thread on it after GP:Colombus or the next local monthly tourney I go to. The deck is quite good and has alot of synergy. Be on the lookout for that thread in like a month or so.I'd be very keen to see a decklist that backs up these claims, particularly the part about your deck being a "unique" version of Sligh. I note that this mystery deck supposedly wins on turn 3 with a "good" hand as opposed to a "god" hand....how often do these turn 3 wins occur exactly, and what is the game-breaking fourth-turn play that seals the deal and makes for "consistent" wins on turn 4?

[Cavius The Great]

It's worth noting that there are no successful pure aggro decks in this format. (Unless you count Burn :wink:)

I guess you've never heard of 9 Land Stompy.


I'd be very keen to see a decklist that backs up these claims, particularly the part about your deck being a "unique" version of Sligh.

Believe me, it's quite unique. It's a twist on a version of Sligh that was popular during the Tempest block.


I note that this mystery deck supposedly wins on turn 3 with a "good" hand as opposed to a "god" hand....how often do these turn 3 wins occur exactly, and what is the game-breaking fourth-turn play that seals the deal and makes for "consistent" wins on turn 4?

I misworded my claims. It actually is with a god hand and is quite rare. The fourth turn is a totally different story though. I consistantly goldfish by the 4th turn. It's very interesting how a whole turn makes a world of difference, but if you've tested Sligh decks like I have, you already would of known that.

[dahcmai]

I play a different version of Dryad Sligh, though it was called Ag-Gro and used a few different cards.

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Mountain
4 Taiga
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Forest
4 Quirion Dryad
4 Sudden Shock
3 Fireblast
4 Grim Lavamancer
3 Incinerate
4 Kird Ape
4 Lava Dart
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Mogg Fanatic
3 Reckless Charge
2 Burning Wish


The main differences are Sudden Shock (which was only a test and I didn't like it, too little of damage slowed the clock). Reckless charge which needs to go back up to 4, it's amazing cast on a dryad. Burning Wish for Flamebreak mostly and a few other toys in the board. Lastly was Lava Dart which gets the Dryad pump up much, much faster. It's good for two damage so it's not horrible, but the dryad pump makes it MVP.


The regular form of Sligh had a problem with Chalice. There's not much you can do about that, though I have seen a few run Hearth Kami as a fix and that seems to help a lot.

[vigilante]

I consistantly goldfish by the 4th turn. It's very interesting how a whole turn makes a world of difference, but if you've tested Sligh decks like I have, you already would of known that.I note with interest that you originally claimed the deck wins on turn 3, consistently on turn 4. Now that's been downgraded to turn 3 with the uncommon god hand, and turn 4 against a goldfish. What are the actual percentages like against the top decks, which are going to be working hard to disrupt you? Have you factored in other commonly run disruption like Chalice of the Void, Cabal Therapy, Silver Knight and Umezawa's Jitte, all of which will give you problems? I suspect that the 'consistent' turn 4 win might be getting further and further away when you consider that your opponents will be trying to stop you from winning, not just sitting there.

Also, your implication that I haven't sufficiently tested with Sligh decks is unfounded.

[Cavius The Great]

What don't you understand about a 4th turn goldfish? Of course opposing decks will stall the process of winning, that's relevent to every deck. You have to understand, a win is a win no matter what turn it is. I've gotten 7th place with the deck that had 3 'filler' cards becuase I couldn't find the missing cards to complete the deck on the spot. I recently gotten the cards I needed for the deck online and the next tournament I attend I'm pretty confident I can easily make Top8 again, if not better.

[rsaunder]

I guess you've never heard of 9 Land Stompy.I don't think he did. 9 land stompy is as unsuccessful as "mountain goat and a bonesplitter.dec" in this format, as it doesn't race much of anything, and has a lot of trouble with removal, control, and combo.

A fast goldfish doesn't mean much of anything, as you will never be able to goldfish any deck in this format. I've seen fast sleigh builds before that won turns 3 and 4 on the goldfish like you suggest, but they never do well when paired against opponents.

EDIT:Cavius beat me to the post.

[mikekelley]

I think that the term goldfish is completely obsolete these days. You are really never facing a 'goldfish' at a tournament, or at all for that matter.

[Cavius The Great]

I think that the term goldfish is completely obsolete these days. You are really never facing a 'goldfish' at a tournament, or at all for that matter.

The term is basically used to give a general idea on how well the deck performs. But I agree, it's nothing to religiously go by.

[mikekelley]

Yeah, but basically, it never happens. So I mean...

I know what it's used for and all, but it's pretty useless.

[kirdape3]

So? Nice turn 4 goldfish. By turn 4, Goblins has two separate kills fully operational (Lackey into Siege-Gang or just turn 2 Piledriver, turn 3 Warchief, turn 4 Matron into Piledriver, goodbye tks), Threshold is staring at 3/3 untargetables for G and 4/4s for G1 and a good deal of operable countermagic, High Tide actually has you dead, Ill-Gotten Gains has you dead, Affinity probably has you dead or is asking you if you have 15 points of burn in the hand since you'll never connect on the ground.

If you want a deck that actually has the ability to ignore the opponent, you're most liable to be playing Ill-Gotten Gains as it's the best current solitaire deck in the format. High Tide's fair as well.

[Whit3 Ghost]

No, that would go to SI (Contract Tendrils) or TES, but that point is utter speculation as neither deck has been around for long enough to claim as large a following as Iggy.

Also, I've tried building Goldfish Agro in and continuously got curbstomped. The plan can work if you get Godhands or terrific matchups (MUC, MUC, Slow Survival, Fish), but I would never take something like that to a major tournament. Hell, I wouldn't play that at an 8 man event (if I seriously wanted to win).

[vigilante]

Originally Posted by mikekelley
I think that the term goldfish is completely obsolete these days. You are really never facing a 'goldfish' at a tournament, or at all for that matter.The term is basically used to give a general idea on how well the deck performs. But I agree, it's nothing to religiously go by.Quoting a deck's 'goldfish speed' doesn't even give an idea of how well the deck performs...all it does is confirm that there are actually cards in a given deck capable of dealing lethal damage by a given turn. When the majority of top aggro and combo decks in the format can claim the same goldfish data (ie. turn 4), the term becomes even more meaningless.

On a related note, most of the potential turn 3 and 4 goldfish scenarios I can think of for non-Goblins mono-red involve a string of burn spells. Introducing creatures actually seems to slow things down (unless you're dropping multiple Jackal Pups etcetera for the first few turns, which is unlikely). If I'm right, and the turn 4 goldfish is achieved almost exclusively with burn, why is mono-red Sligh any better than straight Burn? It's certainly not because Sligh has a good late-game (which is the primary reason why Dryad Sligh is better than traditional mono-red Sligh -- a better mid-to-late game).

[Cavius The Great]

Wow, you guys really have no idea what you're talking about, do you.


High Tide actually has you dead,

I can outrace Solidarity most of the time. I beat it with my Sligh deck at the last tournament that I was in.


why is mono-red Sligh any better than straight Burn?

I can tell you exactly why. Because "permanent" sources of damage are better than Burn spells. Use your common sense, permanent threats deal more damage than a single burn spell and they don't lose steam like burn decks do. They keep on attacking and dealing damage until they're dealt with. Add to that that I beat a Burn deck with my Sligh deck in last tournament that I was in.

You guys need to stop posting comments on this forum and start actually "playing" the game. I get all my knowledge from playing in tournaments while you guys base your theories on just "analyzing" decklists and guessing what the matchups would be like. I know for a fact that I know what I'm talking about because I have experience playing the deck. I think you guys need to stop making ignorant comments and think about what you post before you post it.

[noobslayer]

When I played Zompy at Kadi's dual land draft II, I beat Gearheart (Solidarity) through luck. And I consider that deck more stable than this, as it actually puts relevant threats on the board at the same pace.

Read that again, Luck. I don't really care what your results have been, it's very likely that the solidarity player wasn't fully capable with the deck. But Solidarity is more consistent on its draws, and will kill you in response to lethal damage or never even give you that oppritunity.

And play cursed scroll, it's your rock to hold onto when shit goes bad.

[Cavius The Great]

Read that again, Luck.

It's not luck when you're packing 6-8 Blasts in your SB. That's the main reason Solidarity gets ass raped by Sligh.

You guys need to think before posting these "rash" comments, for real.

[Solpugid]

If solidarity can quite often (when piloted well) fight through Threshold, with 10 or so counters (most of them free) AND meddling mage AND the cantrips to find those cards, why do you think it can't often fight through 6-8 counters from sligh? That just doesn't make sense to me.

[etrigan]

I can outrace Solidarity most of the time. I beat it with my Sligh deck at the last tournament that I was in.

[...]

Add to that that I beat a Burn deck with my Sligh deck in last tournament that I was in.


Just because you have beaten such and such a deck does not mean that your deck is better. There are a lot of other factors that come into play, such as playskill and quality of draws. Also, one game is hardly a good basis for comparison.

Not that Sligh cant be a successful deck. But it has problems. The creature base is weak, dying to everything in Threshold, and at best trading with Goblins. Burn to the dome does nothing for board position. Burn to creatures is at best a 1-for-1 trade, or at worst ineffective (Threshold). And, if Mono-Red, there are no tricks. Your opponent knows exactly what's coming.

There is no card advantage. There is very little disruption. Other than the pressure applied to his life total, which hasn't really changed since Urza's Block, there is very little to stop the other guy.

Sligh today, I believe, is going to have to branch out into other colors. Green and White offer you good creatures, and Disenchant effects and a few other tricks, which you need. Black offers quality disruption. Without a second color, I just dont see how Sligh can be truly viable right now.

[Cavius The Great]

God, you guys piss me off so much. There you go again, making blind assumptions. Have you even tested Sligh against Threshold? I'm pretty sure with my Sligh deck, that if I ever faced Threshold in a tournament I would totally annihilate them. My Sligh deck runs 29 creatures and 16 of them have haste and the rest are beefy 2/2's for (R) and 3/3's for 1(R). I don't really give a fuck about measly 3/3 untargetable creatures and 4/4 creatures. I have 4/2 and 6/1 hasting creatures that can trade with Werebears and Mongooses in worst case scenarios. I would downright overwhelm threshold and I guarantee you that If I ever faced Threshold in a tournament, they probably couldn't keep up. I really can't wait till I play Threshold in a tournament and shove all your false theories up your asses.

[kicks_422]

Sligh is a pain for Threshold, I can agree with you on that, as I've done pretty well against Thresh in tourneys. Maybe you could show us your list so these people could load it up on MWS and prove them wrong.

[kirdape3]

I mean, I've played red decks since they were legal in Standard with all the goodies (Cursed Scroll, Fireblast, Ball Lightning, Mogg Fanatic, Jackal Pup, the works). The best descendents of them... aren't monored anymore. There's no reason at all to be. Even the biggest creature in your proposed lists is outclassed by a contemporary white creature.

As for the Threshold match, I'm not entirely certain that you read your own decklist. You are posting a deck with 16 creatures, not 29. You have 26 burn spells, which is nice, but you're going to need a lot of them to kill the opponent with since your creatures simply aren't that good versus their 3/3s that kill every non-Brigand guy and 4/4s that kill everything you attack with. Yes, you have a window to attack through, but that window is two or three turns at best, not the 5 you're going to need to kill a resisting opponent.

[edgewalker]

God, you guys piss me off so much. There you go again, making blind assumptions. Have you even tested Sligh against Threshold? I'm pretty sure with my Sligh deck, that if I ever faced Threshold in a tournament I would totally annihilate them.

Contradict yourself much? If I were you I would take all these fine people's adivce and realize mono red sligh isn't so hot. Pissing and moaning about it won't make it any better. You're only real option is to splash a color, I would suggest green since big men + burn does pretty well.

I'd also like to comment on your solidarity match-up. You're only evidence is 1 tournament, I would take 2+ YEARS of tournament data over one match. You're 8 blast defence doesn't work since solidarity playes 8+ counterspells along with card draw, see what I did there? You need to understand that you're pet deck doesn't wtfomgbbqpwn everything. It will have shitty match-ups.

[Clark Kant]

Cavius, you have to admit that the claims you made, that you have a mystery sligh deck using brand new tech that 50/50s with Goblins and Solidarity and has a great matchup against Thresh (essentially making it the best deck in the format), but that you refuse to share your lists, does sound unlikely. I'm not going to call you a liar, but no one is going to take you seriously if you're not willing to post a thread explaining your list. And I assure you, if you indeed did make a sligh deck with new tech that's already tier one, based on what you've said here, we'll all call it CaviusSligh.

I do disagree with people about whether monored is viable. As Burns performance since the printing of Rift Bolt shows, the color packs more than sufficent tools to win. What I am proposing is a list that cuts some of the worser burn spells for cards Keldon Brigade. Decks that only run about 10-12 creatures or so, just the best and most efficent, the ones that still deal damage, even when killed off, and fills the rest of the deck with the best burn spells ever printed.

Now let's get back to topic here.

The question at hand is is Keldon Brigand good enough to be a 4 of in Burn and Sligh decks.

I quite think so. Even if your opponent trades a card to prevent it from dealing 3 damage, it still deals 2 damage (compare with Mogg Fanatic which only deals 1), which is pretty damn good. And many players hesistate to trade a solid card for a creature that's dying next turn anyways. So it will often deal 5 damage for just 2 mana.

It even has good synergy with Flamebreak. A post Flamebreak Brigand can be golden, as can a Flamebreak post Brigand's attack phase.

Burn was already very competitive, and I think Brigand only helps. And Sligh gets an even bigger boost, since it deals with blockers already, perhaps making it competitive as well.

[outsideangel]

The possible problem I see here is that I think pure aggro decks based around speed are might really just be dead in this format. Reasons?

A) Goblins- Goblins is going to be as fast or faster than most aggro decks, while also having a good mid- and late-game. Why, then, would you run a deck like Sligh when you can run Goblins?

B) Combo- There's a bunch of combo out there. (Results may vary by meta!) Tide, Iggy, even stuff like TES... none of these are very good matchups. Good Tendrils combo will race you, and Solidarity will just wait until you've got lethal damage down, or are playing some hate, and then win.

C) Control (lack of)- There's just not a whole lot of what we traditionally think of as "control" in this format, which was typically race-based aggro's better matchup. Most control decks we do see nowadays are strictly board control decks, stuff like MWC, that's prepared to deal with the fastest, most resilient aggro around (Goblins).

So what compelling reasons, if any, are there to play an aggro deck purely based around a fast goldfish in today's Legacy?

[Clark Kant]

In response to...
B.) Yes, but burn has proven recently that it can beat solidarity (and goblins), thx to the addition of Rift Bolt. Burn is just as fast and deadly. Adding 8-10 cheap efficient creatures only speeds it up against combo since a turn one creature or turn two Keldon Brigade followed by a bombardment of burn spells all while the creature is beating on the ground deals damage faster than pure burn.

C.) Once again, we're only talking about 8-10 creatures here, creatures that still damage the dome even if killed.

[GreenOne]

I beat Gearheart (Solidarity) through luck
Read that again, Luck. I don't really care what your results have been, it's very likely that the solidarity player wasn't fully capable with the deck.

I'm usually a solidarity player, and had some matches vs Dryad Sligh(dunno which build exactly). I'd call it a good matchup. It's not a BYE (read: rift, loam confinament, 43Lands), but it's a good matchup. Results were 14-6 preboard, 12-8 postboard. I'd assume it's not difficult to win 2 out of 3 games.


It's not luck when you're packing 6-8 Blasts in your SB. That's the main reason Solidarity gets ass raped by Sligh.

You guys need to think before posting these "rash" comments, for real.

Remember solidarity boards 4 blasts against you.
Goblin is boarding 6-8 hate cards too (between blasts, pillar, chalices) against solidarity, and is not exactly f***ing it hard.
Speaking of Gobbos vs Sligh in the solidarity matchup, I noticed some advantages in the games vs slight...
- They can't board chalice: Too low curve. That's a great advantage because every hate they play can be neutered with Hydroblast.
- Twincast is better: can become removal copying a burn spell.
...and a disadvantage: Sligh can win on your turn.

[Cavius The Great]

Cavius, you have to admit that the claims you made, that you have a mystery sligh deck using brand new tech that 50/50s with Goblins and Solidarity and has a great matchup against Thresh (essentially making it the best deck in the format), but that you refuse to share your lists, does sound unlikely. I'm not going to call you a liar, but no one is going to take you seriously if you're not willing to post a thread explaining your list. And I assure you, if you indeed did make a sligh deck with new tech that's already tier one, based on what you've said here, we'll all call it CaviusSligh.

I'm going to another monthly tournament this Sunday, Jan. 7th 2007. I'll start a thread right after I get back from that tourney. I want to gain a bit more tournament experience with the deck before posting the build. Note that I made 7th place the last time I played the deck and I had three suboptimal "filler" cards because they didn't have the cards avaliable, that I needed, to complete the deck. I finally got all of the cards I needed and I should do alot better, this time around. I'll make a thread and post my results (for both tourneys) after the tournament.

[insertnamehere]

My only remark to what Cavius said is :eek:
A good sligh deck runs roughly an equal amount of burn in the deck. A late game a sligh deck dominated by creatures dies out fast. Take this game for example: I am playing U/W fish against a cheavy creature based sligh deck. My opponent gets off to an early lead against me only to lose late game to an onslaught of larger creatures. That is why I feel you should have an equal amount of burn to fend off larger creatures. I may have come in 8th at that tourney, but my deck was the only one to beat the sligh deck, wasn't that right Cavius.

When building a good sligh deck I would run the following:

12 - 16 1-2 drop creatures
8 3 drop creatures
4 4 or higher drop creatures
20 burn spells
16 Mountains

SB
4 REB
4 Pyroblast
7 more burn spells

[Cavius The Great]

I may have come in 8th at that tourney, but my deck was the only one to beat the sligh deck, wasn't that right Cavius.

Yeah, you did beat me bro, but barely. I got you down to 2-3 life on both games, so it's not like you wtfpwned my face. Also take note that I was running a suboptimal deck with 3 filler cards. I was missing 1 Ball Lightning, 1 Mogg Flunkies and 1 Fireblast. That's major for the deck becuase all three of those cards were much needed and probably would of made the difference, if I were to win or lose. I also added 2 barbarian ring to my build for some late game, uncounterable burn (Barbarian Rings are awesome with Fireblast).

I still recall playing against you. One game, you were at 2 life and I was staring at lethal damage next turn. I topdecked a Lightning Bolt and casted it thinking I had the match. You then Force of Will'ed my bolt and it put you at 1 life and attacked next turn and won. I laugh thinking about that match and how close it was. Just remember Bill, you didn't rape me that bad. :wink:

[Tao]

God, you guys piss me off so much. There you go again, making blind assumptions. Have you even tested Sligh against Threshold? I'm pretty sure with my Sligh deck, that if I ever faced Threshold in a tournament I would totally annihilate them. My Sligh deck runs 29 creatures and 16 of them have haste and the rest are beefy 2/2's for (R) and 3/3's for 1(R). I don't really give a fuck about measly 3/3 untargetable creatures and 4/4 creatures.

I don't know against what kind of Threshold player you test, but there is no way that mono red sligh beats a good thresh list with a good thresh player. Absolutely impossible. Mongoose alone is better than Sligh.

Do you even know what the deck "Threshold" does? There is a good primer on this site in the DtB forum. Threshold usually runs about half as much creatures as you but they are all better than your creatures AND Thresh also runs cantrips that draw into these creatures (or Counterspells or Removal to trade with your few important spells).

[Cavius The Great]

I don't know against what kind of Threshold player you test, but there is no way that mono red sligh beats a good thresh list with a good thresh player. Absolutely impossible. Mongoose alone is better than Sligh.

Do you even know what the deck "Threshold" does? There is a good primer on this site in the DtB forum. Threshold usually runs about half as much creatures as you but they are all better than your creatures AND Thresh also runs cantrips that draw into these creatures (or Counterspells or Removal to trade with your few important spells).

This isn't a combo deck were you need to resolve a few important spells to win. Threshold needs to counter just about every spell in the deck in order to win, which is nearly impossible. Mongooses alone are better than Sligh? First of all, that statement doesn't make any sense, and second of all, you're wrong. What do I care about a measly 3/3 when I'm attacking with 4-5 creatures? Sure, the Threshold player can chumpblock one, but they'll be taking damage from the rest. I'm pretty sure that threshold couldn't survive such a creature swarm. Even if they do counter or get rid of all of my creatures, we would both be reduced to a topdeck because of the constant 1 for 1 trades. That being said, I'm pretty sure I would get the upper hand in that situation for the simple fact that Threshold doesn't generate any massive drawing power (only cantrips) and I can easily topdeck a burn spell or a hasting creature to seal the win. And yes, I know what Threshold is. I beat the deck in a tournament with a fuckin B/G Enchantress deck. I'm sure if I faced a more experienced player, then the Threshold player would of won, but not everyone is a skilled threshold player and most people out there don't know how to pilot the deck properly. If I can beat Threshold with a janky B/G Enchantress deck, then I definitely have a better chance of beating it with my Sligh deck.

[edgewalker]

Mongoose > Your burn and creatures
Werebear > Your burn and creatures
Enforcer > Your burn and creatures
Mage = You creatures and burn (burn to a creature is burn not going to the dome)
Draw + Counters > Your Burn

Honostly, I think you should listen to the years of testing other plays have put in rather than you're wild assumptions. You yourself claimed you never played thresh in an actual tournament setting.

[Volt]

Mono-red sligh cannot beat Thresh. You will win the occasional game, but rarely the match. I speak from experience here. Your creatures cannot stand up to theirs, and you will not be able to burn them out in time. You will think you have them as you throw a last-gasp Fireblast at them, but they'll swords a werebear in response and curbstomp you on the following turn.

Otoh, Dryad Sligh actually has pretty decent game against Thresh, particularly if you run Scab-Clan Maulers instead of Slith Firewalkers. The better your creatures are, the better your chances are.

[Finn]

Keldon Brigand
Creature - Human Warrior (C)
Vanishing 2 (This creature comes into play with 2 time counters on it. At the beginning of your upkeep, remove a time counter from it. When you remove the last, sacrifice it.)
When Keldon Brigand comes into play or leaves play, it deals 1 damage to target player.
3/3

Clark, I just want to be sure you know that Vanishing is not the same as Fading. Without haste, this guy only attacks once. Is it really all that good? The little pops can't even hit creatures.

Compared to cards like Nimble Mongoose, Watchwolf, Werebear, Jotun Grunt, and Sea Drake, this little fellow just doesn't measure up very well.

[outsideangel]

Clark, I just want to be sure you know that Vanishing is not the same as Fading. Without haste, this guy only attacks once. Is it really all that good? The little pops can't even hit creatures.

Compared to cards like Nimble Mongoose, Watchwolf, Werebear, Jotun Grunt, and Sea Drake, this little fellow just doesn't measure up very well.

I wouldn't consider him a creature; he looks more like a burn spell to me. He's always going to do 2 damage for 2 mana, which isn't particularly spectacular. But, he also does 3 more damage if your opponent has no creatures, so he's pretty good in the slower combo matchups, like Solidarity. Also, he can block and kill a Goblin, or at least deter them from attacking for a turn, and then go on to swing and either deal 3 or kill another Goblin, so he's useful in the Goblins matchup. Finally, he can trade with a Mongoose, so he's okay-ish in the Gro matchup. He's sort of like Spark Elemental + Mogg Fanatic + Volcanic Hammer, if that makes sense. I know I'll be testing him in good ole' Burninator, though I doubt it's going to be enough to make the deck truly competative.

[Cavius The Great]

Mono-red sligh cannot beat Thresh. You will win the occasional game, but rarely the match. I speak from experience here. Your creatures cannot stand up to theirs, and you will not be able to burn them out in time. You will think you have them as you throw a last-gasp Fireblast at them, but they'll swords a werebear in response and curbstomp you on the following turn.

Otoh, Dryad Sligh actually has pretty decent game against Thresh, particularly if you run Scab-Clan Maulers instead of Slith Firewalkers. The better your creatures are, the better your chances are.

You can't "generalize" every single Sligh deck. My creature base is different from just about any Sligh deck you have ever seen. I'm pretty sure I should have a good game against Thresh. I'll make a thread on the deck after a tourney I'm going to this Sunday.

[Tao]

My creature base is different from just about any Sligh deck you have ever seen.

It doesn't matter at all. Your "big" creatures still won't survive Lightning Bolt or Swords, they still can be countered and the small creatures won't get through a Mongoose. This is not flaming your deck, it is just a fact. like "Soli loses against Deadguy" or "Deadguy loses against Burn".

[Clark Kant]

Burn was always competitive, atleast it has been since the printing of Rift Bolt. It some weird way, it's similar to Solidarity in that it can goldfish on the fourth turn, regardless of what your opponent is doing. With Keldon, I think an even more consistent version, playing stuff like Spart Elemental and Keldon, could surface.

To those saying that burn or sligh built like burn, with just a couple of creatures can't beat thres need to go test against some better burn/sligh builds and decks.

You do realize that thres takes a couple of turns to get threshold right.

A well built burn or sligh deck can infact race it, before it even gets threshold.

I know, I play ugw threshold. Sligh is not a greatly uphill matchup, but it's not an easy one either by any means. It's one of the few matchups that I dislike facing. Burn even worse for the thres player.

There's a reason why I'm maindecking 2 Worships in my thres nowadays. But very few other thres builds do so. And when going up against them, I can easily see a well built burn deck with a good pilot having the upperhand. Even with worships, many games, you won't draw them or get the 4 mana needed to cast them, or lose by the time you get to your fourth landdrop in the first place.

[Peter_Rotten]

Lots of stupidity deleted. Stay on topic, please.

[noobslayer]

Are me and Kird_Ape3 the only ones here who understand how valueable Cursed Scroll is? If I'm in an attrition war that's going to determine the game, that's your Louisville, and it will connect for a home run.

Monored has no consistency against thresh, or in general for that matter. If you aren't playing green, you're playing the wrong build. You're talking to the sligh guy. I played the deck for about a year straight at our local legacy scene. Then again, I wouldn't even bother with the deck in the current meta.

[Cavius The Great]

Everyone knows that Cursed Scroll is incredible, it's a common fact. Atleast I do, I've "gone through" more than 4 playsets in all my years of playing Magic. It's really a phenomenal card and I shouldn't have to explain why. it's elementary really.

[vigilante]

Everyone knows that Cursed Scroll is incredible...Of course it is, but according to your posts thus far, your deck is running 29 creatures and a playset of Cursed Scrolls (I assume so anyway, seeing as you've just finished extolling its virtues). If you're playing the standard 19-20 land, that leaves just 7-8 slots for burn spells. 7-8 slots! You've mentioned in another post that 4 of those 7-8 are Fireblasts, so that leaves 3-4 spaces for other burn -- which I hope would be Lightning Bolts.

Cursed Scroll is a mana-intensive and slow (and not always guaranteed) source of damage to act as removal against opposing creatures, so I'm now even more skeptical of your results seeing as you have so few mechanisms for neutralising blockers -- Scrolls, Lightning Bolts??? and Fireblasts (and Fireblast certainly isn't the optimal choice for creature removal). Your deck seems to be shaping up as a mono-red Stompy deck as opposed to Sligh, as evidenced by the lack of burn spells. As insertnamehere mentioned earlier, Sligh should play approximately equal quantities of creatures and burn so that you have abundant options for creature removal and reach (in the end-game, when it's time to direct your burn at the opponent's head). Your deck has lots of creatures but sparse removal and little reach -- that seems like a recipe for disaster.

However, the tournament you're playing in on the 7th should have come and gone in the not-too-distant future. I look forward to reading your promised report, and most importantly, seeing the decklist.

[Clark Kant]

Can everyone stop flaming Cavius and get back to talking about the topic.

Frankly, assuming he posts it and it has a decent curve and relevent threats it's plausible that his list has been working out well for him, and I look forward to seeing it. This over dismissive attitude in the forums that so many members seem to have only discourages people from sharing their ideas and frankly isn't good for this site or for legacy in general.

Yes monored may not be optimal, but it is more stable, less disruptable, and has access to an incredibly fast clock in terms of burn spells. Sligh as I picture it is just a burn deck that cuts any burn spell that's not superefficent(ie. any burn spells that costs 2 mana to deal 3 damage) and replaces them with very fast and aggressive creatures to speed up the clock by as much as a full turn against combo. Even against aggro, there are many games while playing burn where it feels like you would have an easier time burning away your opponents creatures while killing them with your own than you would just burning them straight up.

There are the ones that everyone agrees on, and there are other options that there is some disagreement on. From the latter category, I think Jackal Pup, Spark Elemental, the new Keldon and possibly even Ball Lightning warrant consideration.

I want to hear any other suggestions you have for other very efficent creatures. Assuming we can find a sufficent quantity, I am inclined to try out Brute Force (The Giant Growth that Planeshift is printing for one red mana). Just as an example, say you cast Spark Elemental and they block it with a Burn Tree Shaman, a Brute Force/Giant Growth there would not only kill the blocker but would also trample over two extra damage to the dome.

[vigilante]

Very well...back to the topic, then.

Clark Kant: In answer to the question you pose in your opening post, I believe Keldon Brigand is indeed useful enough to warrant inclusion as a 4-of in mono-red Sligh decks. However, I believe that mono-red is far from the optimal choice when it comes to Sligh, and that RG Dryad-Sligh, Mono-red Burn and RW Sligh (essentially Boros Deck Wins) are superior choices compared to mono-red Sligh, in that order. My reasoning for those assertions is as follows.

1) RG's creatures (Kird Ape and Quirion Dryad) are superior to anything offered by mono-red Sligh, including Keldon Brigand. With 4-6 R/G duals and 8 fetch lands in Dryad-Sligh, Kird Ape is virtually a guaranteed 2/3 with no drawback, and is the best aggressive one-drop red creature, bar none, as long as you're playing R/G.
Quirion Dryad supplements Slith Firewalker in the "growing creatures" theme, and can increase itself out of burn/removal/lethal combat damage range, at instant speed. The fact that it's non-red is also relevant when staring down Silver Knights and CoP: Red.
Dryad Sligh's access to green spells means it has superior sideboard options, most notably Krosan Grip (or Naturalize, if you prefer), which mono-red simply can't access.
Keldon Brigand doesn't belong in this deck, as it's no better than any of the creatures it would have to displace (Grim Lavamancer = reusuable damage/removal, Mogg Fanatic = efficient attacker/blocker/removal, Kird Ape = efficient beater, Slith Firewalker = Sligh staple/potentially large beater, Quirion Dryad = non-red potentially large beater), plus it's only a one-shot attacker due to Vanishing.

2) Mono-red Burn's ability to deal lethal damage quickly, combined with it's lack of non-land permanents (ie. lack of removal targets) and ability to completely ignore the opponent's blocking creatures, puts it second in terms of effectiveness. The only reason I feel it's not as strong as Dryad-Sligh is because if the initial flurry of damage is stemmed by an opponent with life-gain, hand disruption, judicious use of countermagic (or the back-breaking Chalice of the Void), the lack of re-usable creature-based sources of damage can give an opponent the chance to recover.
Keldon Brigand doesn't belong in this deck for the reasons discussed two paragraphs below.

3) Boros Deck Wins creatures are slightly less resilient than Dryad-Sligh's, and it's burn slightly less potent than Mono-red Burn. It's land-destruction sub-theme means it can potentially disrupt an opponent's plans and buy an additional unimpeded attack step, but the LD also dilutes the otherwise-solid creatures + burn game-plan.
Lightning Helix is a powerful anti-aggro weapon, particularly against other like-minded decks (ie. cheap creatures + burn).
BDW's sideboard options are virtually as good, if not better than, Dryad-Sligh's.
Keldon Brigand doesn't belong in this deck for much the same reason as Dryad-Sligh...it's no more efficient than any of the creatures already played in BDW, plus it's a one-shot attacker only.


In answer to the other part of the original question posed, Keldon Brigand certainly doesn't belong in pure Burn decks, as it's not as efficient as other burn spells already in existence (particularly, as you point out, if an opponent manages to block/remove it, in which case it's an unimposing two mana for two damage.) Running additional creatures in Burn has long been regarded as a poor idea as it gives your opponents something to do with their creature removal (which would otherwise have been stranded, useless, in their hand). Even before Rift Bolt was printed, there were alternative burn spells at least as efficient as Keldon Brigand....with Rift Bolt now in existence, I can't see any Burn deck wanting (or needing) to cut existing cards for a less efficient, more disruptable card. If Burn needed any non-Mogg Fanatic creatures anymore, it's probably choose Ball Lightning (although I certainly don't condone Burn players including Ball Lightnings in their decks).

Your suggestion of Spark Elemental (particularly in conjunction with Brute Force) seems inefficient for the same reason that Ball Lightning isn't played -- it's a one-shot source of damage, whereas Sligh requires creatures that will stay around for longer than a turn (otherwise they're at-most only as efficient as a burn spell, but have the disadvantage of being susceptible to creature removal). Spark Elemental is equivalent to a conditional Lightning Bolt. Brute Force would be equivalent to an even more conditional Lightning Bolt. If you're looking for options for one-shot sources of damage, why not just play more Lightning Bolt clones (Chain Lightning, Lava Spike, Rift Bolt)?


So, in summary, I believe that Keldon Brigand is a solid inclusion, but only in the vastly sub-optimal (at least, in today's Legacy metagame) mono-red Sligh. The three similar decks that I believe are superior to mono-red Sligh don't benefit from the Brigand, for the reasons discussed above.


I believe that's all pretty much on-topic.

[outsideangel]

I could see Keldon Brigand possibly replacing some number of Incinerates in Burn. 2 damage for 2 mana, with the possibility of 3 more damage, and maybe even a block, seems like it could stack up to 3 damage for 2 mana.

Magma Jet is only a 2-for-2, and it still sees nearly universal play because it has added utility. The same could be said about Brigand.

Plus he's good against combo, one of Burn's hardest matchups.

[vigilante]

Regarding Incinerate, I think that the instant-speed (plus randomly-useful non-regeneration effect) is what ensures Incinerate's inclusion in most red burn-based decks. Even though cards' damage-to-mana ratio is probably the most important factor when determining what makes it into a burn deck, having instant-speed options (for winning in response to life-gain or hate) is important as well.

In Burn, I'd rather be tapping two mountains for some combination of Chain Lightning/Lava Spike/Rift Bolt on turn two, than a two mana, two damage creature (with the potential for another three damage if unanswered).

However, the ability to leave lands untapped on turn two for an EOT Incinerate (and a guaranteed three instant-speed damage then-and-there) still seems better than Brigand's potential five sorcery-speed damage over three turns.

[Clark Kant]

It's not true that burn plays 0 creatures. Almost every build runs 4 Mogg Fanatics, and Brigand is essentially a bigger beefier Mogg Fanatic that deals a lot more damage.

I actually think I like him more than Fanatic for the reasons below...


I wouldn't consider him a creature; he looks more like a burn spell to me. He's always going to do 2 damage for 2 mana, which isn't particularly spectacular. But, he also does 3 more damage if your opponent has no creatures, so he's pretty good in the slower combo matchups, like Solidarity. Also, he can block and kill a Goblin, or at least deter them from attacking for a turn, and then go on to swing and either deal 3 or kill another Goblin, so he's useful in the Goblins matchup. Finally, he can trade with a Mongoose, so he's okay-ish in the Gro matchup. He's sort of like Spark Elemental + Mogg Fanatic + Volcanic Hammer, if that makes sense. I know I'll be testing him in good ole' Burninator, though I doubt it's going to be enough to make the deck truly competative.

Also, it typically deters aggro from attacking the turn it came into play, as a second turn 3/3 is big enough to eat and survive anything that any other deck plays that early on.

Add to this the fact that I've already found from proxy testing that many players won't even opt to block Keldon because they don't like the idea of one of their creatures dying for the sake of a creature that would die on it's own the next turn anyways. Typically, it plays like this, first turn Rift Bolt or Spark Elemental, second turn Keldon, third turn attack. Note that prior to the attack, they are at 16 life, they're not too worried about their life total yet, and probably don't even realize what deck you're playing. It's not till after the attack phase, when you finish them off with an 3 more 3 damage for one mana burn spells (say Bolt, Chain, and Lava Spike), followed by a Fireblast, that they realize just how big a mistake not blocking was. It honestly fells like around a fourth of my games play out just like this to give me a third turn win. Even when they block in the situation, or that I don't have a Fireblast, they lose a creature, an attack phase (the turn they played Brigand) and any hope of being able to alpha strike me the next 2-3 turns, giving me inevitability, as all I need is 1-2 more burn sells.

But regardless of whether I completely agree with you, thank you for that post, it was extremely well thought out. I can't say I agree with your other points about Brigand either though. First, I'm not sure why you believe that the build I'm suggesting doesn't already max out playing every available 3 damage for 1 mana spells before turning to creatures. The fact is, there are only 16 3 damage for 1 mana spells, 20 if you count Spark Elemental. Even after Fireblast, that still leaves 18 slots to fill.

Second, like I said, yes splashing a color always gives you better options, regardless of what deck you're talking about. The problem with a splash is, they open you up to the possibility of mana disruption, slowing down your clock, and possibly mana screwing you considering how mana light sligh decks usually tend to be. I always keep one land hands that are packed with a bunch of 3 damage for 1cc spells. I wouldn't be able to in a r/g build, as practically every deck that can runs 4 Wastelands, and many maindeck Stifles and/or Pithing Needles as well. 17-18 lands means my clock may go down by several turns whenever faced with a Wasteland. And any deck playing maindeck Pithing Needle has no better options to name than Wooded Foothills. I admit that this isn't that great a concern though, just one concern worth keeping in mind. This Wasteland weakness, and the inclusion of any Forests or Plains also makes Fireblast significantly worse as well, mandating that you cut possibly two copies. And it also makes Price of Progress worse.

[vigilante]

It's not true that burn plays 0 creatures.Hence I didn't assert that it does. I did, however, say "If Burn needed any non-Mogg Fanatic creatures anymore...", and I didn't include Fanatic in my discussion of Burn's lack of non-land permanents as Fanatic scarcely counts as a permanent for the purposes of removal....obviously, it is sacrificed in response to being targetted. These issues may have led to confusion regarding Burn's use (or not) of creatures. I apologise.


Brigand is essentially a bigger beefier Mogg Fanatic that deals a lot more damage.I simply can't agree with this statement -- bigger, yes, but comparable to Mogg Fanatic -- no. Brigand is essentially like a cheap Lava Axe, whereas Fanatic is more like a flexible, potentially reuseable Lava Dart. My biggest problem with Brigand is the fact that it's comes-into-play and leaves-play damage can't target creatures. If it could, it would of course be fantastic. Legacy is a format dominated by creatures, defined by its creature removal, and populated by decks that can deal with creatures. Keldon Brigand, as it stands, can attack on turn three (and then never again, but that's a gripe for another day). By turn three, most commonly-played creature removal or disruption is already online. There are, of course, some decks where this won't be the case -- Iggy Pop and Solidarity come to mind -- but against Threshold, Goblins, and a lot of tier 1.5 and 2 decks out there, your opponent will be ready for your Brigand. All of this speculation is even more relevant if you draw the Brigand after turn 2, where its usefulness declines even further (due to the fact that most of the time, it's going to amount to 2 damage for two mana). At the end of the day, Keldon Brigand amounts to 1) one damage when it's played, 2) a potential blocker once, 3) a potential further 3 damage if it's attacking and unblocked (or could block a second time, if it didn't attack), and 4) a further one damage upon leaving play.

Mogg Fanatic, however, can serve as pinpoint creature removal, a blocker, or both. Against combo decks, it's ability to attack turn after turn (ie. no Vanishing drawback) means it'll likely deal as much damage as Brigand would have done. Mogg Fanatic amounts to 1) attacking for 1 until blocked (or removed, at which point one damage is dealt to a creature or player), 2) attacks for an additional damage per turn until blocked (or removed), as per above, and 3) pinpoint X/1 creature removal at any time. If attacking is eschewed in favour of a defensive stance, Fanatic can block and kill an X/2.


In terms of potential raw damage, yes, I agree that Brigand can deal more. In terms of flexibility and suitability for Burn decks, whose lists are already very tight (and I doubt are capable of being diluted to include 8 creatures), I think that Mogg Fanatic is the better choice.


Testing will continue, of course, before any definitive decisions are made. (Thank you as well for your input....it's very insightful.)

[hi-val]

Perhaps this is out in the weeds at the moment, but I could see something like Cryoclasm on the board for troublesome matches. It Time Walks a combo deck and perhaps even more, thanks to the damage. If I were running something like this in an event, Cryoclasm or some other really fine LD card would probably be on the board to force my creatures through by slowing the game. If you find Thresh to be problematic, it could be boarded in as well.

Or hell, you can just board in Price of Progress as your win condition.

[Cavius The Great]

Of course it is, but according to your posts thus far, your deck is running 29 creatures and a playset of Cursed Scrolls (I assume so anyway, seeing as you've just finished extolling its virtues).

I don't run cursed scroll in my deck.

[Poron]

Sligh can beat Thresh, you need PoP (played at the right time) and some Pyroblast to protect it.

It's not an impossible matchup with the right SB

[vigilante]

I don't run cursed scroll in my deck.Why, pray tell, not? I was of the impression (as were you, a few hours ago), that...

Cursed Scroll is incredible, it's a common fact [...] It's really a phenomenal card and I shouldn't have to explain why. it's elementary really.
Are you deliberately posting conflicting information and contradicting yourself (which you've done on several occasions) in some sort of effort to maintain secrecy about your decklist? Implying in one post that you play a certain card, then later saying you don't (without explanation of why you don't) adds nothing useful to the discussion, and potentially confuses new players viewing the thread. How's that going to look to someone unfamiliar with Sligh -- "Card X is incredible, play 4 of them", and then later "I don't actually use any of Card X" ?

In any case, whether or not you use Scrolls is unimportant. Even with 11-12 burn spells, the deck still sports well below the established number (18-20), meaning too much reliance on a creature swarm to win (which is why I likened it to red Stompy earlier). Decks in today's format are much more likely to have an answer to a creature swarm with a splash of burn, than a 50/50 split of creatures and burn. [If decks couldn't handle lots of creatures, 9-land Stompy would be a top-tier deck. It's not.] At least with 18-20 burn spells, you'd have some more reliable reach to finish off an opponent who stabilises after the creature rush.

[Clark Kant]

Cavius, it's the 7th. Could you please post your decklist now so that we can get back on track.

And I encourage everyone to keep an open mind, and to post constructively rather than flames.

[Cavius The Great]

Why, pray tell, not? I was of the impression (as were you, a few hours ago), that...

Are you deliberately posting conflicting information and contradicting yourself (which you've done on several occasions) in some sort of effort to maintain secrecy about your decklist? Implying in one post that you play a certain card, then later saying you don't (without explanation of why you don't) adds nothing useful to the discussion, and potentially confuses new players viewing the thread. How's that going to look to someone unfamiliar with Sligh -- "Card X is incredible, play 4 of them", and then later "I don't actually use any of Card X" ?

In any case, whether or not you use Scrolls is unimportant. Even with 11-12 burn spells, the deck still sports well below the established number (18-20), meaning too much reliance on a creature swarm to win (which is why I likened it to red Stompy earlier). Decks in today's format are much more likely to have an answer to a creature swarm with a splash of burn, than a 50/50 split of creatures and burn. [If decks couldn't handle lots of creatures, 9-land Stompy would be a top-tier deck. It's not.] At least with 18-20 burn spells, you'd have some more reliable reach to finish off an opponent who stabilises after the creature rush.


You were just making stupid assumptions. I simply said that Cursed Scroll was incredible. Take note that I never mentioned a word that I ran them in the deck. Stop arguing about pointless things, you're starting to come off as an asshat.


Cavius, it's the 7th. Could you please post your decklist now so that we can get back on track.

And I encourage everyone to keep an open mind, and to post constructively rather than flames

I don't feel like posting the deck, atleast not yet anyways. I went 2-2 this last tournament and didn't do too well. I still need to tweak the deck a bit and once I get the build finely tuned, then I'll post it.

[insertnamehere]

I don't feel like posting the deck, atleast not yet anyways. I went 2-2 this last tournament and didn't do too well. I still need to tweak the deck a bit and once I get the build finely tuned, then I'll post it.

If you post it then people could give you some deck help. For what is in the deck it seems pretty strong except for when some sheeseheads plays a deck consisting of all counterspells and burn cards. Otherwise the deck runs like the old school sligh deck of years ago. To back you up scroll is good in the deck.

[noobslayer]

I've waited a while to spoil this tech: http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=mob+mentality

In monored sligh that is creature based, it's rediculous. It's not some shitty jank, it is actually good. It won me some games back when I was the sligh kid that I had no buisiness winning. It's cheap, which is hte most important factor, and adds trample, which is a boon for these creatures. Don't Dismiss it, test it.

Also, has anyone else ever tested out raising the top of the curve to 3? Burning-Tree Shaman was some good in my testing a while back.

[noobslayer]

Sorry for the double post. If I were to play sligh, I'd likely use this list. I'd also put BTS through testing again.

// Lands
4 [B] Taiga
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
7 [B] Mountain (1)
1 [OD] Barbarian Ring

// Creatures
4 [AN] Kird Ape
4 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
4 [TE] Mogg Fanatic
4 [PS] Quirion Dryad
4 [GP] Scab-Clan Mauler

// Spells
4 [B] Lightning Bolt
4 [FD] Magma Jet
2 [JU] Lava Dart
3 [TE] Cursed Scroll
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
4 [UL] Rancor

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 3 [B] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle

[Clark Kant]

Cavius, when you said you had a sligh build that's actually decent against goblins and such, I was willing to give you the benefit of doubt.

But with your backtracking and refusal to post it, I'm starting to doubt you really had anything worthwhile to share

[vigilante]

Regarding Cavius...
To back you up scroll is good in the deck.There's no need to back him up...in one breath he's saying that Cursed Scroll is a great card for Sligh, and then in the next breath saying he's not running them. If he's not willing to play with them, what's he basing his comments on? I don't think even he knows.




You were just making stupid assumptions. I simply said that Cursed Scroll was incredible. Take note that I never mentioned a word that I ran them in the deck. Stop arguing about pointless things, you're starting to come off as an asshat.In the asshat department, let's analyse your contributions so far. You've provided us with the completely unfounded assertion that Dryad-Sligh is not good. You've claimed that you've invented a deck with 50/50 or better results against all top three decks in the format. You've gotten fired up whenever anyone's questioned your claims, citing your years of experience with Sligh (but little tournament play) as reason enough that your assertions are correct. You've jumped on the "Cursed Scroll is great" bandwagon, but then backpedalled and said you don't actually play with them (possibly in an attempt to make me look foolish? I'm not exactly sure.) Finally, after assuring those of us who have been skeptical of your results that you'd provide a tournament report and decklist, you've reneged at the last minute citing "I don't feel like it" and "It needs more tuning" as your reasons.

(As an aside, if this deck can beat Goblins, Soli and Thresh in it's "untuned" form, imagine how badly it'll warp the metagame when it's perfected!)

Cavius, I think Clark Kant has summed it up pretty well in his last post...your decklist is probably sub-optimal and your results flawed, and you don't want to give people the chance to see this so you're backing out of sharing your list. That's fine, but don't expect your comments regarding Sligh to hold much weight.

Did anyone play against Cavius in the tourney on the 7th, and if so, would they be willing to shed some light on the cards they saw in the deck? Even just some idea of the cards that supposedly set the deck aside from a typical Sligh build would be nice.


Noobslayer, your list looks pretty solid, but a couple of things... 1) where's Fireblast? What was your logic for not including it? 2) Scab-Clan Mauler is great in the deck, but would Seal of Fire be a better inclusion than Lava Dart for maximising the chances of getting a turn 2 bloodthirsty Mauler? I know Dart is great with Dryad, but it's a bit lacklustre on its own. 3) How has Rancor been working out for you? It looks to me like a lot of the potential targets are pretty fragile (ie. you'd only ever want to play it on a Dryad, Kird Ape or Scab-Clan Mauler, and that's only 12 targets in the deck).

Otherwise, nice deck. I particularly like the 3 Pyrokinesis in the board.

[Nightmare]

Second warning to the thread - Keep the flames out of the discussion. Warning to Cavius the Great for trolling. If you want to discuss your deck, either list it or make a new thread.

[noobslayer]

Noobslayer, your list looks pretty solid, but a couple of things... 1) where's Fireblast? What was your logic for not including it? 2) Scab-Clan Mauler is great in the deck, but would Seal of Fire be a better inclusion than Lava Dart for maximising the chances of getting a turn 2 bloodthirsty Mauler? I know Dart is great with Dryad, but it's a bit lacklustre on its own. 3) How has Rancor been working out for you? It looks to me like a lot of the potential targets are pretty fragile (ie. you'd only ever want to play it on a Dryad, Kird Ape or Scab-Clan Mauler, and that's only 12 targets in the deck).

Otherwise, nice deck. I particularly like the 3 Pyrokinesis in the board.

Thank you vigilante.

1) The lack of fireblast is what makes room for more beaters, which in turn answers your third question. If there were any less creatures in teh deck, I wouldn't go near the card. You always want to threat on the board, and this really ensures (the creature count) that Rancor is not a dead card. If I were playing a monored build, it would be easily replaced with Mob Mentality. Don't get me wrong, the twelve "hardy targets" you listed are the ebst candidates for Rancor, but you should never hesitate when the situation calls for it to be placed on a fanatic or lavamancer. A Rancor'd Fanatic trades with werebear, which is pretty relevant.

2) I'm not a huge fan of seal of fire. The cost of a mountain is largely irrelevant, and helps feed the lavamancer. I like that dart is a excellent answer to turn 1 lackey, while still leaving one damage in reserve for something else. And yes, I realize fireblast is more efficient at filling theyard for lavamancer's, my current preference however lies with lava dart. Far too often in my year of play did fireblast get countered.

@ the board. It's entirely interchangeable, and could even be modified for a third color splash, namely black, opening Dark Confidant in the board, and a fair amount of combo hate that could be boarded in. The board I presented is just one I threw together for the sake of completion.

[Cavius The Great]

Did anyone play against Cavius in the tourney on the 7th, and if so, would they be willing to shed some light on the cards they saw in the deck? Even just some idea of the cards that supposedly set the deck aside from a typical Sligh build would be nice.

The deck uses 8 cost efficient 2/2's for one red mana (Goblin Cohort and Mogg Conscripts), 4 Mogg Flunkies, and creatures that return to your hand at the end of turn, which also have haste. The deck's creatures all work together, the 2/2's for one red can only attack if you cast a creature spell that turn and Viashino Sandstalker and Glitterfang ensure that your creatures attack every turn. I also run 4 Ball Lightning, 4 Spark Elemental and 1 Blistering Firecat which all ensure a quick kill. I only run 7 burn spells, 4 Lightning Bolt and 3 Fireblast. I also run 3 Chrome Mox for acceleration, 17 mountain and 2 barbarian ring. I run 29 creatures, the reason being becuase I need a very high creature count in order to play Mogg Conscripts and Goblin Cohorts effectively.

I learned alot from the tournament that I went 2-2 in. I'm taking out the 4 Glitterfang and replacing them with Slith Firewalker. There were too many times where Firewalker was clearly superior. I'm also taking out the Chrome Mox and replacing them with Lotus Petal. There were way too many situations where Chrome Mox just sat in my hand. They were horrible during the tournament. Lotus Petal also fuels Barbarian Ring making it more effective. I'm also going to run 4 fetches and an extra Barbarian Ring. The fetches help gain you Threshold for the Barbarian Rings. Barbarian Rings are probably the MVP in the deck becuase they're basically uncounterable burn spells.

To put you guys at ease, here is the decklist I ran in the tournament.

Cavius Sligh.DEC v.2.0

// Lands
17 [CHK] Mountain (4)
2 [TE] Wasteland
2 [OD] Barbarian Ring

// Creatures
4 [SOK] Glitterfang
4 [8E] Viashino Sandstalker
4 [4E] Ball Lightning
4 [BOK] Goblin Cohort
4 [TE] Mogg Conscripts
4 [SH] Mogg Flunkies
4 [FD] Spark Elemental
1 [ON] Blistering Firecat

// Spells
3 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [U] Lightning Bolt
3 [VI] Fireblast

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [IA] Anarchy
SB: 2 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 4 [A] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [TO] Hell-Bent Raider
SB: 2 [8E] Blood Moon

The current changes to the deck go as follows.

-5 Mountain

+1 Barbarian Ring
+2 Wooded Foothills
+2 Bloodstained Mire

-4 Glitterfang
-3 Chrome Mox

+4 Slith Firewalker
+3 Lotus Petal

I hope you guys are satisfied. :rolleyes:

[noobslayer]

I have a few concerns with the list.
All my comments are going to be on your first list, without the revisions considered.

1) If you're going to run wasteland, why not run the set? It seems hardly productive to only run 2.

2) No fetchlands? Let me say that again. NO FETCH LANDS?!?! Four is the bare minimum, this could build could afford to run as high as 8.

3) Glitterfang seems like a poor way to maintain your 2/2's for R engine. Let me correct that, I don't consider it a very stable engine in the first place. The lack of Moog Fanatics, which are a much more potent 1 cc drop are far more valueable in any match-up.

4) The viashino sandstalker's I can handle, but still don't agree with. I think they are too vulnerable for their cost.

5) I've aired my complaints enough about Ball Lightning-esque creatures enough in the Groundbreaker thread. The same can be applied to blistering firecat.

6) Flunkies can see play, I'm fine with that.

7) Chrome Mox seems like an immense loss of resource, something an aggro deck is already going to be low on.

8) Sligh at a bare minimum should be running 12 burn spells, 8 of which are 4 lightning bolt, and 4 magma jet, before anything else.

9) No Lavamancer's or Cursed Scroll seems like a very bad choice for a deck that has hardly any late game reach.

This would be my proposed list for Mono-red sligh would be something akin to this, before being tweaked of course.

// Lands
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
10 [B] Mountain (1)
2 [OD] Barbarian Ring
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire

// Creatures
4 [MR] Slith Firewalker
4 [TE] Jackal Pup
4 [SH] Mogg Flunkies
4 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
4 [AT] Mogg Fanatic

// Spells
2 [PR] Incinerate
2 [JU] Lava Dart
3 [VI] Fireblast
3 [TE] Cursed Scroll
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
4 [FD] Magma Jet
4 [B] Lightning Bolt

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Anarchy
11 xxxxxxxxxxx

Choices:
-Fireblast: In the mono-red builds I am an advocate for it, as these decks tend to have far fewer late game options, so speed is more essential. But keep in mind, you can't go over board, as stability is far more important. Lava dart is run in fewer numbers to account for the lost of mountains for Fireblasts alternate cc.

-Jackal Pup: Anything better? He's in here as filler right now. I am not a strong advocate of it. (WHY THE FUCK COULDN'T THEY HAVE PRINTED LIGHTNING BRINGER!?!?!) [i]for reference: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgevent/mi05/cards

-Anarchy as a four of: If I'm going against anything that say "Pro: red" I don't want any less than four of these.

[Cavius The Great]

1) If you're going to run wasteland, why not run the set? It seems hardly productive to only run 2.

I disagree with you on this one comment. The main reason I don't run 4 wasteland is becuase of Ball Lightning. 80% of the time Ball Lightning just sits in my hand when I run 4 Wasteland becuase it's so mana intensive. That's not a good thing and is why I decided on only 2 wasteland.

[noobslayer]

Your statement proves exactly why I would NEVER run Ball Lightning. I did test the card in my initial build of sligh way back when. I'll make this point clear: IT NEVER WON A SINGLE GAME.

[Cavius The Great]

Your statement proves exactly why I would NEVER run Ball Lightning. I did test the card in my initial build of sligh way back when. I'll make this point clear: IT NEVER WON A SINGLE GAME.

Funny you should say that, I win games all the time with Ball Lightning. It rocks versus Solidarity and MUC which is reason enough to run it IMO. I don't know about you, but I love the card.

[noobslayer]

I'm going to end my sentiments with I hate the card, plain and simple, before our responses degenerate into personal attacks (which historically they do) and get this thread closed. You will not/never see Ball Lightning in any of my lists.

On another note, has any tested Isochron Scepter ever in the deck? It would never be sustainable as more than a 2-of, but I'd like to collect opinions to see if it would warrant testing.

[Cavius The Great]

I know you dislike Ball Lightning but I want to get this comment out there. I can't get fourth turn kills without Ball Lightning. It's an awesome finisher and it's basically a burn spell for three mana that deals 6 damage. I know that Silver Knight makes it a dead card in hand, but that's only one matchup. All in all, I've had nothing but good experiences with Ball Lightning.

[Cait_Sith]

You are both wrong. Only 8BallLightning.dec can save us from 8Wrath.dec, 8Stonerain.dec, 8Char.dec, and 8Akroma.dec.

[aisman132000]

i have to agree with noobslayer, ball lightning is pretty much garbage in sligh. While sometimes it does hit for six if your oponnent has an answer for it (lightning bolt, darkblast, swords, counter, mogg fanatic ect.) more often then not it ends in tempo loss.

Wasteland>ball lightning. cursed scroll>ball lightning.

Cavius your deck seems like it's trying to play like goblins by overwhelming your opponent with creatures as you have zero board control. with that being said why not play goblins? the strategies are similiar only goblins has card draw, tutoring, and generally more brokeness. if you want to improve on your deck i would suggest cutting down on the amount of Sandstalkers your playing to only 2 or 3. more often then not having more than one will clog your hand and you'll basically be down a card (because you won't be able to play it). Honestly i wouldn't play fetchlands in your deck as you run zero grim lavamancers so fetchlands are basically mountains that can be stifled. I'm not sure how your deck can claim a positive matchup against goblins since it has few ways to control their creatures besides 4 lightning bolts. they basically play the same game that you do only their cards are better.

in my opinion speed is not that important thing for sligh and i would advocate a list with cursed scroll, grim lavamancer and more burn. basically the same as noobslayers mono red list but i would go

+4 wasteland
+1 fireblast
+1 cursed scroll

-4mogg flunkies
-2 lava dart

[kicks_422]

Cavius:
Upon seeing your list, I was disappointed. I was expecting more than that.

You have 7 burn spells (9 if you count the Barbarian Rings), of which 4 are finishers. 2 Wastelands are hardly going to matter if you rarely draw even one. I don't see how this is any better than Sligh decks with a rough split of 20/20/20 (land, creatures, burn). If you rely so much on creatures, why not run Goblins instead? I loaded it up to test it, and sure, it was quick... But it had too many problems regarding Turns 5 onwards. With all the good decks I face, that is a real liability.

Noobslayer:
I tested Scepter as a 2-of in my Dryad Sligh, over the 2 Seal of Fire. I found it too slow, and surprisingly had too few targets (BOlt, Incinerate, Jet).

I agree with you regarding Ball Lightning though. Back when I ran mono-red, it whips out 6 every now and then, but it's too vulnerable to everything.

[noobslayer]

@ aisman132000.
Thank you for the support, but I have a correction to your statement. Speed is important to sligh, very importnat. But even more important is stability and the ability to produce relevant threats to the game state.

EDIT:
@Kicks:
My ideal split would be 20/20/2/18, being creatures/burn/scroll/land. I'll try to mock up and ideal Rg list with an optimized side board, leaving options open to metagaming.

EDIT 2: Thank you for your experience with Scepter. I think though by retuning the burn selection in the deck you can provide it with a fair amount of targets. Anyone else's experiences with teh card are greatly appreciated.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I call it "Cavius Sligh" because the deck is kind of unique. It can win on turn 3 (with a good hand) and the deck consistantly wins by turn 4.


I know you dislike Ball Lightning but I want to get this comment out there. I can't get fourth turn kills without Ball Lightning.


Someone should do a remix of this thread.


Of the maxim, "Speak softly and carry a big stick", you seem to have gotten the order reversed.

[kirdape3]

Ball Lightning (and it's cousin Blistering Firecat) were good against non-interactive decks specifically. They'd be setting up their combo, and on turn 3 you'd just 10 somebody. It's harder to set up against decks that have the ability to declare blockers, but you can also slowplay a Ball Lightning against them to make sure that you get in there with that thing. 6 damage is a lot for a deck that has to contend with ultra-efficient creatures and the best burn spells ever printed.

As for Cavius' list, is the synergy between the 2/2 creatures and, well, a lot of them better than the traditional build incorporating Jackal Pup and more burn spells?

[noobslayer]

I think against the top 3 deck in the format it's pretty awful.

UGw Gro: Swords to Plowshares, countermagic. The chances that they'd get caught without at least one is remote at best

UGr Gro: Burn, countermagic. See above.

---

Solidarity: Force of Will, Remand. If it's critical, they will counter it. Post board the have blasts for it.

---

Goblins: Gempalm Incinerator, Mogg Fanatic, Sharpshooter if run, Siege-gang activation, potential burn or even jitte counters. Add to the fact that their clock is just as fast as your and far more consistent makes the 6/1's irrelevant.

[kicks_422]

I used to run 2 Scrolls as well over my 2 Seal of Fire. My only problem regarding it was that I never got to use it... Once my hand was gone, I've usually just won or was put into an unwinnable position which Scroll couldn't help with.

I might run them again though, just to see if my past experiences with them were flukes. :tongue: BTW, my split is close to yours: 20/22/18.

[kirdape3]

Against High Tide, if they have the Force of Will for it, sure. If they don't, that's six more damage. I doubt you're beating High Tide in the first game anyways, but you have to give yourself the best shot you can. The best shot is to just try to 20 them immediately - no other card gives you the same opportunity as Ball Lightning does to do that.

Against Threshold, I absolutely want them to waste their Plows on a Ball Lightning. If they're trying to burn it, that's fine too - it's not hitting a Jackal Pup. Most of the time, they can't afford to just race you if they know you have Ball Lightning - either the six life will be relevant, the extra burn over the top will be relevant if they have to aim it at the creature rather than you, or they'll have to lose a creature to try to soak up some of the damage.

Against Goblins, you really have to pick your spot properly. Sure, they have some removal for it, but if it connects once then it's hugely relevant on how they have to play their game. You already should have a ton of removal versus their most dangerous creatures, so the game devolves into either a topdecking war or you have Cursed Scroll (aka you're hoping that they don't find a Ringleader so you can get on with winning the game). If it's a topdecking war, I cannot think of a better card in my deck than Ball Lightning to just smash over for six. If they have the removal for it, great. If they don't, that's really, really bad for them. Sligh versus Goblins ended up about even in our testing, but Ball Lightning was very, very good there.

[Tao]

2) No fetchlands? Let me say that again. NO FETCH LANDS?!?! Four is the bare minimum, this could build could afford to run as high as 8.

Using Fetchlands with the only purpose "deckthinning" has been proven useless for an Aggro deck.

[noobslayer]

I'd like to be an optimist about the deck, but I know from a lot of play with it, it can never make top tier.

@Tao: Grim Lavamancer.

[Tao]

@Tao: Grim Lavamancer.


There are no mancer in his list.

[Cavius The Great]

Using Fetchlands with the only purpose "deckthinning" has been proven useless for an Aggro deck.

It's not only for deckthinning purposes, it's also for "feeding" Barbarian Ring which is the main reason I run fetches.

[noobslayer]

At my Grim Lavamancer and fetchland comment. If Lavamancer isn't in sligh, of mono-red, Rg, or any other incarnation, the list is inherintly flawed. Barring burn and creature loss to fill the 'yard, fetches are the next most reliable source. Also, fetches make magma jet better, as instead of saying look I have a land and a decent card, you have more relaible chances of scrying and hitting two decent cards.

[Clark Kant]

Cavius, I'm sorry but I just don't think your build is better than traditional sligh or burn at all. Sligh plays creatures bc they require a one time mana investment to do damage turn after turn. Ball Lightning and Spark Elemental and Keldon Brigand are the exceptions only bc they deal a ton of damage for that mana, so they're more like a very efficent burn spell than a creature. Tieing up your mana having to recast the same creatures again and again is not a strength, it's a weakness, mainly bc those creatures you're replaying aren't 6/1 tramplers, they're 3cc 4/2s and 1/1s. Why not just play burn. Stuff like Rift Bolt, Lava Spike, Chain Lightning all do more damage per mana. Not only do the creatures die easily, not deal much damage, but they also can't block which makes it easy for your opponent to race you.

Ball Lightning is a solid card. Yes it occasionaly gets StPed or burned. You guys make it sound like it happens every game. People rarely anticipate it. It happens maybe 1/3rd of the time or so at best. And when it does, atleast that StP didn't hit one of your other more permanent threats.

The only reason I don't run it is bc my manabase doesn't support it and I have other options that are just as good too.

Ball Lightning feel out of flavor back when Vintage was dominated by just one deck, The Deck, bc it was the only card that let The Deck abuse Mana Drain.

[Mirrislegend]

Could someone clarify the difference between Sligh and an aggro deck? In other words, what does "Sligh" imply that "aggro" doesnt?

[noobslayer]

Sligh can be directly defined as distinctly Red aggro deck, which does allow for splashes, that usually uses mana efficient creatures, and an even split of burn. The highest percentage of casting cost goes in decending order from one to three, and has anywhere from 18-21 mana sources. Stereotypical creatures for the deck include Jackal Pup, Mogg Fanatic, and Grim Lavamancer. The most common color splash is green, which provides Kird Ape, the most efficient 1 cc beater, and creates the commonly used variat: "Dryad Sligh."

[Zilla]

noobslayer's basically correct. In simple terms, Sligh is a red-based aggro deck defined by a low curve and a roughly equal split of aggressively costed creatures and burn.

[Mirrislegend]

So shouldnt any well-built red-based aggro deck be a Sligh deck?

Here's my current RG Aggro deck:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation

// Lands
4 Taiga
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Mountain
2 Forest
4 Stomping Ground

// Creatures
4 Kird Ape
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Scab-Clan Mauler
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
2 Grim Lavamancer

// Spells
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Shock
3 Incinerate
4 Rancor
1 Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Lava Dart
SB: 2 Naturalize
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt

(the 1x Jitte and 2x Grim are just because of availability issues)

So is this Sligh?

To further this however, the question behind my question is this: Why are they considered different decks? How does the tinkering, testing, and discussion of red-based aggro and Sligh differ? They seem to end up being exactly the same in all respects, as far as I can tell.

[noobslayer]

Yes, I guess your list in some ways could be considered Sligh. There are a few inherint problems with it (I'm not sure if you posted it with intent for revision, but I can make points to refute it's full Sligh title).

1. Sligh prefers, barring fetchlands, duals if splashing, and wastelands if running them, to run as few non-basics as posssible, to keep itself immune to non-basic hate. Also to open up the options to use Price of Progress in certain metagames.

2. In the 2 cc green creature slot, Quirion Drayd as placed in much higher regard before anythign else. Wild Mongrel could be playable, but having to pitch resources for a +1/+1 pump is hefty. Also, If Grim Lavamancers are run (I don't have any clue in hell why you wouldn't run them in the first place), they are no less than a four of. I believe them to be tied for #1 creature of the archtype with Kird Ape.

3. Builds splashing colors always look for on color creatures first, unless the splashed color creatures provide some amount of huge card advantage (see Quirion Dryad). Hence why you likely wouldn't see Skarrgan Pit-Skulk in many, if any builds.

4. You're also running a sub optimal burn configuration. 4 Lightning Bolt and 4 Magma Jet before anythign else. I then place Chain Lightning in the next order of priority of inclusion.

You're build strongly resembles traditional sligh builds, however you deviate more towards a creature based finish, with fewer burn to clear the way for the beats, and for, at leastwhat I would consider, a slower win plan. Your list looks as though it wins between turns five and six. Traditional Sligh wants to win as close to turn four as possible.

Semi-disregarding your list: Has anyone tested jitte in the deck? Do we have any numbers or results to justiy its inclusion, or does it have yet to be tested on a large scale? Kird_Ape3?

Back @MirrisLegend. Yes, any well built Red based aggro deck with a strong contingent of burn and cost efficient creatures could be considered sligh. Your list however, begins to deviate more towards cheap costing Rg beats.

[kicks_422]

I tried Jitte as a 2-of... Honestly, it never really did anything. It just sat in my hand while I kept casting beaters and clearing the way with burn, and when I did get a window to plop it down, it just sat in the corner waiting for me to equip it to someone.

I did get to equip it once on a 6/6 Dryad, but suffice to say I really didn't need the Jitte to win that one.

I'm really confused about the last 2 slots in my build of Dryad Sligh, presently occupied by Seals of Fire. I tried Cursed Scroll again, but I found it was too slow. I want to point out that my curve tops out at 2, which allows me to use Fireblast aggressively to clear the way against big blockers and not just as a finisher. Sacrificing mountains leaving only 2 behind in the midgame is not new to me, and I just hate drawing a Scroll / having one in play right after I do that.

That was also part of the reason why I took out Ball Lightning. It's 3cc was too prohibitive for my playstyle.

[Volt]

I recently threw a Sligh deck together just for kicks. Here it is:

"Rancor Sligh"

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga
7 Mountain

4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Kird Ape
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Slith Firewalker
4 Blood Knight

4 Rancor
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Magma Jet
2 Rift Bolt
3 Fireblast

It ain't gonna win GP Columbus or anything, but it's a fairly effective deck. Blood Knight is actually pretty good, since it dodges StP. Slap a Rancor on it, and now your opponent really has a problem.

It beats Goblins and has decent game against Thresh. Combo is a problem, but a devoted sideboard can help out quite a bit.

[kicks_422]

I recently threw a Sligh deck together just for kicks.

For me? Why, thank you.... j/k :tongue:

I agree that Blood Knight is really good, but I won't cut my Dryads for them though. They're probably best in a mono-red build...

As for the Rancors - interesting, to say the least. Rancor + First strike/Ape/Slith is cool, but have you missed more burn in your build, seeing it's down to 17, 3 of which are Fireblasts?...

[Cavius The Great]

I agree that Blood Knight is amazing. I planned on getting a playset the very day the spoiler came out. With Rancor it's just nasty. It's also pretty good with that red Giant Growth, Brute Force.