[Brainstorming] Tomb of Yawgmoth

[Zilla]

From the MTG Salvation Spoiler:

Tomb of Yawgmoth

Legendary Land - R

Each land is a Swamp in addition to its other land types.


This is a very interesting card, and one with a lot of possibilities. They maybe aren't all good, but I could see some interesting strategies which revolve around it:

1. There's the obvious: make a deck with a lot of Swampwalking creatures. Planar Chaos' Mire Boa (River Boa with Swampwalk) would be a start. Probably not the most broken strategy out there, but it's an option.

2. What about something like this though? How about Tomb of Yawgmoth with Spreading Algae (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=7917)? 1cc land destruction every turn is nothing to scoff at. And considering that green is the color of cards like Crop Rotation (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=8024), you'd have no trouble finding your Tombs. Back it up with other land destruction like Wasteland and maybe Port and you'd have a fairly decent denial strategy going on. Combine it with Life From the Loam and you get protection for your Tomb along with a draw engine. Mox Diamond could help accellerate your threats. Against aggro matchups you'd even have free lifegain (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=5274) if you wanted it.

I dunno, I'm just tossing out ideas here.

3. Another idea is an aggro deck that benefits from opposing swamps in other ways, like Angry Mob (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=17931), Cho-Arrim Legate (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=8390), and Crusading Knight (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=3914). Since they're all white creatures you could even run Weathered Wayfarer to find your Tombs, and Sacred Ground to protect them, if necessary.

Like I said, I dunno how good any of these ideas are, I'm just tossing ideas out there. It seems like you could build some pretty interesting decks around the card, so I thought I'd get a discussion going about it.

[morgan_coke]

To me it seems most like Riftstone Portal, except that it doesn't need to be in the graveyard and it affects your opponent too. Certainly makes cards like Hecatomb seem more interesting.

[Eldariel]

All I know is that I'm going to do lots of 'turn 1 Tomb, turn 2 Flagstones of Trokair-Smallpox' plays and laugh madly each time. Technically it could enable running more off-colour lands in black decks, and maybe even lands that don't tap for mana, making them able to. Certainly has promise, but I don't know if it'll be played beyond a 1-of status as utility in black decks.

[Bane of the Living]

I think the coolest effect in a simple mono black deck is getting more for your money out of Coffers. It wont suck in multiples and is infact BETTER with multiple copies. So good Vesuva should fit in the deck. That leaves Consume Spirit as a legit win condition now.

[TorpidNinja]

It wont suck in multiples and is infact BETTER with multiple copies.

"It" being Tomb of Yawgmoth? If so, update yourself on the Legend rule.

"It" being Cable Coffers? If so, then good god that's a slow set up.

[Bane of the Living]

"It" being Tomb of Yawgmoth? If so, update yourself on the Legend rule.

"It" being Cable Coffers? If so, then good god that's a slow set up.

Whats wrong with playing Tomb, Swamp, Coffer, Coffer? Thats 6 mana, then 2 more every turn. Its not colorless either unlike Cloudpost or Tron. It could be run in a mono black control deck. Its not like we got a black wrath or anything..

[Lego]

"It" being Cable Coffers? If so, then good god that's a slow set up.

I think what you're missing is that Cabal Coffers counts itself when Tomb of Yawgmoth is in play. Seems like you might as well include it as a one-of in any deck that plays Coffers. Unless you're already hugely susceptible to Wasteland...

[TorpidNinja]

I think what you're missing is that Cabal Coffers counts itself when Tomb of Yawgmoth is in play. Seems like you might as well include it as a one-of in any deck that plays Coffers. Unless you're already hugely susceptible to Wasteland...

No, I get it.

But it's terribly susceptible to the format's already abundant land hate, as you've already conceded. Furthermore, if we're using this card as part of a mana engine, how do you suggest to get it in hand as a one of? As I said, to many variables for a slow set up.

On the other hand, I would play GodzillA's idea in a heartbeat which feasibly ruins an opponent's manabase within the first 2 turns and has an abundance of other disruption options in color. Hell, the deck could conceivably be mono-green with the Loam engine.

[Cait_Sith]

Alot of MBC decks run x Swamp and 4 Coffers. Turn 2-3 Swamp (or even 1) into Tomb won't make it exceptionally vulnerable to wasteland. Actually, given that WL would be saved for the Coffers of D00M anyway. Also, it makes a big difference in tempo. Watch. Assuming opening with Turn 1 Coffers And a swamp a turn:
Normal:
Turn 1: Coffers is tempo loss
Turn 2: Coffers is tempo loss
Turn 3: Coffers is tempo loss
Turn 4: Coffers breaks even
Turn 5: Coffers is mana accel.
Tomb on turn 2:
Turn 1: Coffers is tempo loss.
Turn 2: Coffers breaks even.
Turn 3: Coffers breaks even.
Turn 4: Coffers is mana accel.

If you drop a Mox or other mana accel by turn 2 Coffers becomes mana accel turn 3. It is worth the risk to shave off alot of tempo loss and create massive mana accel. Seriously, it is not often they would kill Tomb over Coffers.

[outsideangel]

Kormus Bell + Goblin Sharpshooter? lol

[Drkdstryer]

Alot of MBC decks run x Swamp and 4 Coffers. Turn 2-3 Swamp (or even 1) into Tomb won't make it exceptionally vulnerable to wasteland. Actually, given that WL would be saved for the Coffers of D00M anyway. Also, it makes a big difference in tempo. Watch. Assuming opening with Turn 1 Coffers And a swamp a turn:
Normal:
Turn 1: Coffers is tempo loss
Turn 2: Coffers is tempo loss
Turn 3: Coffers is tempo loss
Turn 4: Coffers breaks even
Turn 5: Coffers is mana accel.
Tomb on turn 2:
Turn 1: Coffers is tempo loss.
Turn 2: Coffers breaks even.
Turn 3: Coffers breaks even.
Turn 4: Coffers is mana accel.

If you drop a Mox or other mana accel by turn 2 Coffers becomes mana accel turn 3. It is worth the risk to shave off alot of tempo loss and create massive mana accel. Seriously, it is not often they would kill Tomb over Coffers.

Why would you EVER drop a turn 1 or two Coffers? The only time I'd drop a Coffers as soon as turn 2 is if there's already a Tomb down, or I have another in my hand for turn 3. I mean, I get your argument that Tomb makes the Coffers tempo loss MUCH easier to bear, but your explanation is just... weird.

[herbig]

Does this thing tap for mana?

Angry Mob is obviously the best use.

[Anusien]

Yes. This counts itself as a Swamp, and all swamps have "T: Add B to your mana pool."
By the way, I'd be very very careful about tapping fetchlands for mana, since that's a good way to get them wastelanded.

[Zork]

I could easily see this card thrown into a spring tide type deck in conjunction with Bubbling Muck (black sorcery speed high tide) and the better black card draw like skeletal scrying, night's whisper, etc.

I also see possible uses with these cards:

Filth - evasion wins.
Lake of the Dead - mana accel off of "dead" wastelands and such?
Roots of Life/Refreshing rain - nice life gain if life gain weren't bad
Stern Judge/karma - play low land count maybe?

Edit: I also forgot that I like the fact that this is a land, making it uncounterable.

[Poron]

i love the LD idea *sbav*

4 Spreading Algae
4 Sinkhole
4 Wasteland

2/3 Damnation for some control

Dark Confidant to draw.. some green goodies.. can we try a decklist?

[Cait_Sith]

4 Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
4 Bayou

4 Dark Confidant
4 Mire Boa

4 Crop Rotation
4 Spreading Algae
3 Damnation
4 Sinkhole
3 Pernicious Deed

This is starting to look like DGA.

[outsideangel]

4 Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
4 Bayou

4 Dark Confidant
4 Mire Boa

4 Crop Rotation
4 Spreading Algae
3 Damnation
4 Sinkhole
3 Pernicious Deed

This is starting to look like DGA.


+ LftL
+ discard suite of choice
+ way to tap lands to make sure they die to Algae

Looks janky, but could be pretty good, with more discard for combo and E. Plague in the SB.

[nightshade81]

I kind of went a different way with it making a more control build vs. a aggro/disruption and this is far far from anything polished but it seems to be ok.

3x Duress
3x Hymn to Tourach
4x Pernicious Deed
3x Damnation
2x Gigapede
3x Zombie Infestation
4x Living Wish
3x Crop Rotation
3x Life from the Laom
3x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Spreading Algae
2x Small Pox

23 Land
Too lazy to do right now but Maze of Ith is a one of and so is The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale. Cycling lands, Waste, Fetches ect.

Living Wish targets will include Witness, Maze, Tabernacle, Dust Bowl, Gigapede, Grave-Shell Scarab, Viridian Zealot and others. If you don't like Living Wish I think Sylvan Scrying should be considered, but then the threats should also be increased since Living Wish is also considered a win condition.

What do you guys think? Tabernacle + Lando is fun!!

[MattH]

+ way to tap lands to make sure they die to Algae
Rishadan Port!

[Cait_Sith]

4 Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Rishadan Port
4 Bayou
6 Forest
5 Swamp

4 Dark Confidant
4 Mire Boa
2 Gigapede

3 Crop Rotation
3 Spreading Algae
3 Damnation
4 Sinkhole
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Life from the Loam
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Duress

How is that for off the top of my head?

[Poron]

mmm imho 1-2 tabernacle main deck and we can even cut Damnation... and with 4 Crop Rotation we can avoid the Living Wish strategy.

[Poron]

i'm testing a little your list and:

1) we really need fetchlands (to avoid the waste of Loam when you have Tomb online)
2) Wasteland!!!!! where's it?
3) 4 Mire Boas are too many. 3 is better. we already play 3 Damnation and 3 Deeds as board sweepers
4) Perhaps a Tabernacle Pendrell main deck
5) Perhaps some mana accelerators. mm Exploration? we play 24 lands, Exploration may be good

[Poron]

improved list?

4 Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Bayou
3 Rishadan Port
3 Wasteland
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell's Vale
2 Swamp
3 Forest
4 Windsweapth

3 Spreading Algae
4 Sinkhole
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Life from the Loam
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Duress
4 Crop Rotation
3 Damnation

4 Dark Confidant (mmmmm may be we can start cutting here?)
3 Mire Boa (good wall)
2 Gigapede (WC)

[Poron]

this can work and when we get Spreading Algaes in multiple copies we just can't lose.

[Cait_Sith]

4 Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Bayou
3 Rishadan Port
3 Wasteland
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell's Vale
2 Swamp
3 Forest
4 Windswept Heath

3 Spreading Algae
4 Sinkhole
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Life from the Loam
4 Hymn to Torach
4 Duress
4 Crop Rotation
3 Damnation
3 Exploration

4 Mire Boa
2 Gigapede

Try this on for size. I am specifically worried about the Gobs matchup. Tell me how it goes.

[Complete_Jank]

No one has mentioned my favorite win condition of all time.

Karma!!!


I use to run it in blue white control with Magical Hack.

Now all I have to do is run bounce or Zuran Orb with Crucible or splash green for LftL.

[Cait_Sith]

My big bone with Karma is that you need to avoid Symmetry with it. Also, enchantments haven't been to hot as wincons lately. If you think of a way how please post it though. Maybe a Team Yawgmoth will get started up trying to use this card. Hehe.

[Complete_Jank]

This card will be put into my Crazed Army deck as a one of at least. There are so many colorless lands that tapping a Mishra's or Port, heck even a sacland when I am at low life sometimes will help me win the game.

[Cait_Sith]

This card is simply awesome.

[Poron]

our list miss something.. we don't draw and we have some problem with green mana.

is there a land which allows we to draw? bazaar of baghdad would be perfect, but.. :(

nothing similar?

[Poron]

Silvan Library is perfect particularly with Loam but we have to redesign the deck, there are too many 2-3x of.

anyway i'm not so sure this deck is anyway viable because goblins matcthup is quite good since we have Mire Boa which regenerates, but they have Wasteland, and if they cut our unique Tomb and we haven't Crop Rotation... we're in troubles.

it's nearly a 50-50, depends on who starts better

edit: oh sorry. -____- we always have 4 Enginereed Plague by sideboard. Goblin is an easy matchup, it was nearly 50-50 without sideboard

[Cait_Sith]

Exchange LtfL for Crucible of Worlds and see how that works. Has for the Library... Not sure AtM.

[Cavius The Great]

Guys, you forgot something. MBC can now run 4 Maze of Ith with Tomb of yawgmoth. That's major, man.

[noobslayer]

Deck needs cycle lands. Maybe even Divining Top. Do something relevant with your mana, and make your draws better. There's also a disturbing lack of my favorite BG win condition, Grave-Shell Scarab.

[Cavius The Great]

4 Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Bayou
3 Rishadan Port
3 Wasteland
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell's Vale
2 Swamp
3 Forest
4 Windswept Heath

3 Spreading Algae
4 Sinkhole
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Life from the Loam
4 Hymn to Torach
4 Duress
4 Crop Rotation
3 Damnation
3 Exploration

4 Mire Boa
2 Gigapede

Try this on for size. I am specifically worried about the Gobs matchup. Tell me how it goes.


You've got to include Maze of Ith in this type of deck, for sure.

[TheDarkshineKnight]

You know, this makes getting the mana for Haunting Echoes relatively easy...

[nightshade81]

I don't know what you guys are smoking but Pernicious Deed is considered the best sweeper in the game and is much better then Damnation. Plus Mire Boa regens through it. Deed > Damnation, I would run 4 Deeds and 2 Damnations if you want 6 sweepers and 4 Deeds and one Damnation if you want 5. Deed really is that good.

[Pinder]

Actually, I think that these would be pretty good in Friggorid. Being able to tap your Coliseums for B to avoid damage is always good, and the deck could always use more black sources to feed its Ghouls. And having your Trops turn into B/U/G Tri-Lands never hurt anyone, either. I'm thinking maybe a two of?

Oh, and on a side note, how does this interact with Blood Moon? Do all nonbasics become Badlands, or does the fact that Blood Moon changes the Tomb into a Mountain keep it from making everything a swamp? Because some sort of BR mana denial with Tomb and Blood Moon seems halfway viable.

[Eldariel]

Oh, and on a side note, how does this interact with Blood Moon? Do all nonbasics become Badlands, or does the fact that Blood Moon changes the Tomb into a Mountain keep it from making everything a swamp? Because some sort of BR mana denial with Tomb and Blood Moon seems halfway viable.

I believe it's like the Humility/Opalescence interaction; if Tomb came into play first and Blood Moon after that, Tomb is applied first in the timestamp order and makes all the lands Swamps, followed by Blood Moon making all non-basics (including Tomb) into Mountains (only Mountains, doesn't retain previous types during switch). If Blood Moon came into play first, Tomb is turned into a Mountain before it can make Swamps.

[Cait_Sith]

Actuall it doesn't matter. When moon comes in Tomb becomes a Mountain with all other non-basic lands, ending its effect.

[Cait_Sith]

Actually it doesn't matter. When moon comes in Tomb becomes a Mountain with all other non-basic lands, ending its effect.

[Maldur Sven Vedukor]

This seems to be the best card of planar chaos (or maybe the TS block).

[laststepdown]

25 Land
--------
4 Bayou
3 Swamp
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
3 Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell's Vale
3 Maze of Ith
1 Cabal Coffers
3 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory

23 spells
--------
4 Spreading Algae
4 Sinkhole
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Life from the Loam
4 Crop Rotation
3 Damnation
3 Pernicious Deed

9 creatures
-----------
4 Dark Confidant
3 Mire Boa
2 Gigapede

SB:
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Duress
2 Phyrexian Negator
1 Damnation
4 Engineered Plague


I altered your list a bit-I took out 1 of of the Tombs-after you get one, they're legendary, and could be horrible topdecks, where an extra Mishra's Factory could be game saving. I also started a sideboard with basic weapons against the big 3(thresh, gobs, tide). Feel free to tell me how bad it is, but a potential idea is quicksand(good with crucible) for a turn 1 lackey answer. I really wish we could fit Smallpox in here, but I think it just won't fit.

[Zilla]

I altered your list a bit...
The lack of Rishadan Port is a problem. Spreading Algae is much less good when you don't have a way to force the land destruction.

Also, I think Crucible and Life from the Loam is probably overkill. I'd go with
one or the other. In my opening post I suggested Life from the Loam because it can be a draw engine with cycling lands in addition to recurring your Tombs and Wastelands. If you're not going to run cycling lands then I think I'd choose Crucible over LftL. Crucible has poorer synergy with Deed though, so it's a tough call.


Some general thoughts:

I agree that 4 Deed/2 Damnation is probably the way to go, if you really need 6 board sweepers.

I also agree that Maze of Ith is a must.

I'm noticing a lack of Living Wish in a lot of these lists, and given the utility it provides it seems like it's worthy of strong consideration.

I sure would like to see Mox Diamond in here because of its synergy with Loam/Crucible, but I guess the lack of synergy with Deed makes them untenable.

The deck should almost certainly run Haunting Echoes, at least in the sideboard. It's insane against... well, pretty much everything in a deck like this. It really is its own win condition.


Some more specific thoughts which take the deck in a slightly different direction:

I'd consider running no creatures outside of maybe Mishra's factory and Gigapede, adding in some cycling lands for a draw engine with Loam, and putting in Smallpox. Smallpox is even more land destruction, as well as hand destruction, as well as creature destruction. It's seems like it should be stupid good in a deck like this.

I'm happy to see people putting effort into this idea. It felt kind of fanciful when I first came up with it, but you all have really started shaping it into a viable concept. It seems like it could be a hell of a lot of fun.

[Cait_Sith]

26 Land
--------
4 Bayou
3 Swamp
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Forest
3 Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Maze of Ith
1 Cabal Coffers
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Rishadan Port

22 spells
--------
4 Spreading Algae
4 Sinkhole
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Living Wish
4 Crop Rotation
3 Damnation
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Exploration

5 creatures
-----------
3 Mire Boa
2 Gigapede

SB:
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Engineered Plague
2 Phyrexian Negator
1 Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Gigapede
1 Rishadan Port
1 Maze of Ith
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Glacial Chasm

Taking into consideration some of my own suggestions, Zillas, and yours I made some changes.

-3 Life from the Loam

+3 Living Wish

I like Crucible in a deck like this more. Without any way of pitching large numbers of lands Life is not that impressive.

-4 Dark Confidant

+4 Exploration

The mana curve of this deck is high enough that Confidant can take off easily 3+ life a turn on average. Exploration lets me use a wastelock, drop Tomb and another land, quickly ramp up into all sorts of good fun.

-1 Maze of Ith
-1 Mishra's Factory

+2 Rishadan Port

This deck needs port, period. Thanks to Crucible and Crop Rotation I can easily find the land I need.

SB: I pretty much turned the SB into a land based wishboard with a drop of Gob and Solidarity hate. I love the Negator idea vs Solidarity. It has no drawback, a fast clock vs Solidarity, and can be wished into play. The hymns help to buy the time I need to kill them, but I still do not feel as though this is a very good matchup.

After some testing: -1 Exploration +1 Forest and -1 Phyrexian Negator +1 Glacial Chasm. Thanks Poron!

[Poron]

i would 100% run a glacial chasm.

glacial chasm + exploration + crucible of words = sbaaaaaaav

and:
1) We really prefer Damnation over Pernicious Deed because of Exploration. Deed breaks our Exploration which is absolutly bad.

2) Without Hymns and Duress's we have to concentrate on LD so:

4 Sinkhole
4 Wasteland
4 Spreading Algae
4 Rishadan Port

are a must
so with the Living Wish strategy

4 Sinkhole
3 Wasteland
4 Spreading Algae
3 Rishadan Port (+1 Sb)

and I think this is the right LD list.

3) Mire Boa. Why do we play it? Swampwalker? naaaa, we're full of board sweepers. so? because it resists to Deeds? perhaps yes, but just for that.

That's why i'm definitly going to run 3mb+1sb Mishra's Factory and -3 Mire Boa MB.

Mishra's:
-resist every board sweeper we have in the deck, it come back once dead every turn with crucibles, can be played withuot mana and very fast because of our 4 Exploration.
we can get it with Living Wish (3) or with Crop rotation (4). and it can be sacrified too to Crop Rotation if it becomes target of some StP or Lightning Bolt or whatever else.

Mishra's >>>>>>>>> Mire Boa

Even because we DO prefer running Damnation over Deeds not to lose our Explorations..

(and this opens too to the Mox Diamond's version, but i don't really feel we need other acceleration over 4 Exploration)

4) 1 Viridian Zealot by side.
We have to be able to respond to Pithing Needle

5) The cut of Mire Boa and Pernicious Deed gives room to 4 Duress and 4 Hymns.
Now the deck is much more Viable
These are some ideas I think we have to take into account, this deck is pure fun :D

[Poron]

And after all this work... we still don't draw.

Why not Sylvan Library? it's permanent, it allows us to get the best of our first 3 cards, we shuffle a lot because of redoundant fetch lands.

why not Sylvan? definitly to test imho. in 2x, 3x

[Poron]

my list:
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Bayou
2 Swamps
3 Forest
4 Windsweapth Heat (on turn 1 we need green, not wasteland-targetable mana)
3 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
2 Maze of Ith
1 The tabernacle at Pendrell Vale (it works. that's all. with Spreading Algae it's just a board sweeper, indeed. it replaces perfectly Pernicious Deed)
3 Tomb of Yawgmoth

28 Lands
______________________

LD:
4 Spreading Algae
4 Sinkhole

Search utility
4 Crop Rotation
3 Living Wish
3 Sylvan Library

Lands Advantage
4 Exploration
3 Crucible of Worlds

Utility
2 Damnation
4 Duress
1 Gigapede (with the 3 Living Wish, 1MB it's enough, we really don't like to draw it untill it's time to win)

SB:
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Viridian Zealot
1 The Tabernacle at PV
1 Maze of Ith
1 Glacial Chasm (to pwn aggro creature based decks this is SO GOOD and fast too -___-)
1 Gigapede
1 Phyrexian Negator
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Rishadan Port
1 Eternal Witness (someone said: "oh I really need back that Exploration or that fucking Crucible of Worlds, nevermind! we have 3 Living Wish to get back what we need!!)
3 Consume Spirit (we can get very low on mana, especially with fast aggro and in the burns Matchup. Add the fact we're FULL of black mana every turn..) Perhaps it's a good kill condition anyway) or anyway here we can play Zuran Orb. but i'm not so sure i would run it. It can be stopped by Pithing Needle
1 Free Slot

This is (probably) one of the best list we can create with Green and Black, but my dream is to play Armageddon here..

-Crucible of Worlds, a couple of Explorations-

Armageddon
*get back his Tabernacle at PV*
*get back his Tomb of Yawgmoth*
*get back his Bayou*

Pass.

ehueueuheuheuheuheuhueueuhhu it's funny just thinking about it

[ForceofWill]

Looks decent I would add the 4th rotation as it basically gets your win conditions and although no one plays it Belcher would wreck u.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Has the almost total lack of answers to turn 1 Lackey come up?

Funeral Charm might be interesting, as Tomb makes the third ability a lot more potent, and people have been playing it for just the first 2.

[Poron]

oh probably by side we should add 3xEnginereed Plague. thanks for the remind

anyway we win the goblin matchup with Maze of Ith on Piledriver and blocking with Mishra's but yes, we can have problems with their Ports and Wasteland, so other answears to goblins are necessary.

New Sb

3 Enginereed Plague
1 Viridian Zealot
1 The Tabernacle at PV
1 Maze of Ith
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Thrashing Wumpus (we play 4 exploration, it's easy to have 5 mana on turn 3, and we have all the black mana we need. this OWNS)
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Rishadan Port
1 Eternal Witness
3 Consume Spirit

now I was wondering on this:
what we run of black?
Sinkhole
Duress
Damnation

Sinkhole ----> Ice Storm
Damnation ---> Wrath of God
Duress---> nothing comes to my mind but no problems: opening to white gives us Armageddon.

just wondering on a G/W version.. but we'd lose Eng Plague, Thrashing Wumpus, Duress... and much of the Tomb power.

[Zilla]

Make room for the 4th Wasteland in the board as a Wish target if you're not running 4 in the maidneck. You're playing land destruction, after all.

And god damn it, I really want to see Smallpox in the list somewhere. Plus if you're not running Deed, Mox Diamond seems like a no brainer. Diamond + Smallpox = answer to first turn Lackey. Mox Diamond and Mishra's Factory are also answers to turn 1 Lackey. Maze of Ith is yet another.

Cabal Pit somewhere in the main or as a Wish target would be yet another land-based creature removal option, and a recurrable one at that.


opening to white gives us Armageddon.
Adding a spell which requires WW in a 3 color deck with 8 colorless lands and a requirement for BB on turn 2 is, for all intents and purposes, totally impossible.

[Cait_Sith]

I turned 3 Boa into 3 Library and they are working nicely. Jaynel and I were testing and this deck needs... a clock. Period.

[Poron]

oh we can try
Sinkhole---> Small Pox
but I wouldn't run both..

too much BB and 4 Sinkhole, 4 Spreading Algaes, 4 Small Pox, 4 Wasteland are too many.. with a single Spreading Algae and a single Sinkhole on turn 4 we always leave him with a single land..
Smallpox is good for the creatureremoval function..

and let's say it: Smallpox cost 0,1€ Sinkhole costs 40€.

ok Smallpox instead of Sinkhole is viable

[Poron]

I turned 3 Boa into 3 Library and they are working nicely. Jaynel and I were testing and this deck needs... a clock. Period.

it's quite embarassing to say, but I'm not english and i don't understand what's a clock-period. *_*

[Zilla]

oh we can try
Sinkhole---> Small Pox
but I wouldn't run both..

I disagree. Smallpox is strong specifically in conjunction with Sinkhole. Sinkhole by itself is the best land destruction card ever printed. I definitely run it over Smallpox. I'd just like to see both, if it's possible.

[Poron]

3 Mishra's Factory
4 Bayou
2 Swamps
3 Forest
4 Windsweapth Heat
3 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
2 Maze of Ith
1 The tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Tomb of Yawgmoth

4 Spreading Algae
4 Smallpox
4 Crop Rotation
3 Living Wish
3 Sylvan Library
4 Exploration
3 Crucible of Worlds
2 Damnation
4 Duress
1 Gigapede/Trashing Wumpus/Hunting Echoes.

SB:
1 Viridian Zealot
1 The Tabernacle at PV
1 Maze of Ith
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Thrashing Wumpus
1 Gigapede
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Rishadan Port
1 Eternal Witness
2 Consume Spirit
3 Enginereed Plague

some little changes somewhere

[Poron]

I disagree. Smallpox is strong specifically in conjunction with Sinkhole. Sinkhole by itself is the best land destruction card ever printed. I definitely run it over Smallpox. I'd just like to see both, if it's possible.

imho you should try the list. we just don't need that much LD... we have also wasteland, spreading algae (which is back EVERY TURN), and as i said often on turn 4 we leave him with a land (enchanted too...).

I really can't find room for both Smallpox and Sinkhole, or better I can't find room for both together without cutting something that would have been better if drawn instead of Smallpox/Sinkhole.

it's just time to test. if we find we really need more LD, ok. we can cut Duress (but I love to see opponent's hands..). but imho is enough

[Poron]

other 2 lands i'd love to add are
1 Cabal Pit MB or SB (thanks godzilla)
1 Glacial Chasm MB.

especially cabal pit which gives B mana, can be interesting...

ok
-1 Swamp
+1 Cabal Pit

Glacial Chasm MB adds a silver bullet to Crop Rotation's Toolbox, but it gives no mana, and on turn 1-2-3 it's often useless.

mmm very difficoult choice

[nightshade81]

What’s the point of running 3 Living Wish? If you’re dedicating most of your sideboard to it and then only run three seems rather inefficient to me. It's one of the most versatile cards in the deck and counts as a win condition, which most versions of this deck are severely lacking. Summary: Run 4.

[sammiel]

it's quite embarassing to say, but I'm not english and i don't understand what's a clock-period. *_*



What he means by saying a clock is that the deck must have a way of putting pressure on the opponent. I.E. Creatures swinging, a millstone grinding away, those are all clocks, of various speeds.

saying 'Period' as in We need help! Period! is a statement intended to indicate resolution or finality.

[Poron]

it's a good advice, but when you give input at this point plz, add to the sentence what you would cut to make room.

for example I'd relly like to add 4 Mox diamond (turn 1 smallpox, turn 1 living wish, etc. etc) but what would I cut? just no room for moxes..

-1 crop rotation
+1 Living wish

[Zilla]

imho you should try the list. we just don't need that much LD... we have also wasteland, spreading algae (which is back EVERY TURN), and as i said often on turn 4 we leave him with a land (enchanted too...).
I'm aware of the Spreading Algae... It was my idea after all. I suppose the Smallpox would be overkill... it just seems like it could supplement the deck's strategy nicely.

Speaking of testing, what have you been testing against and how is it going? What matchups do you think are very strong and which ones do you feel need improvement and why? What cards seem to be working best and why?

[Poron]

I'm aware of the Spreading Algae... It was my idea after all. I suppose the Smallpox would be overkill... it just seems like it could supplement the deck's strategy nicely.

Speaking of testing, what have you been testing against and how is it going? What matchups do you think are very strong and which ones do you feel need improvement and why? What cards seem to be working best and why?


good matchups: threshold, boros, burns, B/W control

bad matchup (till now):
solidarity (but just when we don't destroy him a land every turn) It counts on starting hand and first 1-2 draws.
reanimate: I don't really imagine how to win. he needs just a swamp for Reanimate and surely isn't scared of hand disrupters such as Hymns or Duress..
he just has to wait he has enough cards, discard akroma and play at the same time: swamp + reanimate in a single turn.
almost unwinnable, with our decklist.
muc 40-60 about.. if he success in countering exploration or Crucible or the first Algae is very difficoult to get the control before him

the biggest problem vs these bad matchup is the number of dead cards we play
tabernacle, wasteland, maze of ith, damnation

this is a first impression, but i just tested with a friend on mws. but he had good decklists

[sammiel]

it's a good advice, but when you give input at this point plz, add to the sentence what you would cut to make room.

for example I'd relly like to add 4 Mox diamond (turn 1 smallpox, turn 1 living wish, etc. etc) but what would I cut? just no room for moxes..

-1 crop rotation
+1 Living wish


uh, maybe you should relax. I have no input on this deck, I'm just a spectator who was answering your question about the language.

[Cait_Sith]

27 Land
----------
4 Bayou
2 Swamp
4 Windswept Heath
2 Forest
3 Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Maze of Ith
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Rishadan Port

33 Spells
----------
3 Spreading Algae
4 Smallpox
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Living Wish
4 Crop Rotation
3 Damnation
3 Exploration
4 Funeral Charm
3 Sylvan Library
2 Haunting Echoes

15 Sideboard
-------------
3 Duress
3 Engineered Plague
1 Phyrexian Negator
1 Gigapede
1 Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Ichneumon Druid
1 Thrashing Wumpus
1 Rishadan Port
1 Maze of Ith
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Glacial Chasm

I combined some advice from a TMD guy who was helping me as well as various assets other people noted. I am seriously prefering Smallpox over Sinkhole in a creatureless build, since it gives me some options vs early game Gobs, gives me a bit of protection vs Solidarity, and helps me early game vs Thresh.

[Poron]

uh, maybe you should relax. I have no input on this deck, I'm just a spectator who was answering your question about the language.

oh sure, i'm not excited or angry obviously, I was just responding to nightshade81

thanks for the language explanation, obviously. and i'm sorry if i appear rude, it's just my english which sucks. sorry again

[Poron]

27 Land
----------
4 Bayou
2 Swamp
4 Windswept Heath
2 Forest
3 Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Maze of Ith
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Rishadan Port

33 Spells
----------
3 Spreading Algae
4 Smallpox
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Living Wish
4 Crop Rotation
3 Damnation
3 Exploration
4 Funeral Charm
3 Sylvan Library
2 Haunting Echoes

15 Sideboard
-------------
3 Duress
3 Engineered Plague
1 Phyrexian Negator
1 Gigapede
1 Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Ichneumon Druid
1 Thrashing Wumpus
1 Rishadan Port
1 Maze of Ith
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Glacial Chasm

I combined some advice from a TMD guy who was helping me as well as various assets other people noted. I am seriously prefering Smallpox over Sinkhole in a creatureless build, since it gives me some options vs early game Gobs, gives me a bit of protection vs Solidarity, and helps me early game vs Thresh.

HOT sideboard with that Ichneumon Druid!!!

and even Funeral Charm over Duress can be a good choice..

swampwalking sometimes on Gigapede is really nice and it's response to turn 1 Lackey too.

oook new updates for me :D

[Cait_Sith]

We can make an awesome deck together :). Also I see Sammiel liked my quote.

[Poron]

I just don't understand why 3 Exploration.

and I (but these are just impressions) feel that 3 Damnation MD are too many, we draw 3 for turn, and we shuffle. I often get it with 2...

last but not least: Haunting Echoes? awesone card in here but you lock yourself to SB for WC? mmm

[Cait_Sith]

Echoes IS a wincon. Just ask anyone who plays it. And Damnations are important since they are our best chance for gobs once turn 3 rolls around.

[Poron]

vs gobbos is not so difficoult. a crop rotation to glacial chasm in response ot his attack, gives you a turn and if you have crucible (and he hasn't wasteland) you have many many more turns...

to this add that you play tabernacle, 3 Plague MD once sided 2 maze of ith for piledrivers, now even 4 Funeral Charm...

we really don't need 3 Damnation, but I really like the Haunting Echoes idea. it's dangerous, but it's nice.

now a new mission: how do we get 4 free slot to put 4 mox diamond in?
because with mox diamond everything become easier....

[nightshade81]

I don't understand why Reanimate is a bad match up, don't you just go Crop Rotation/Living Wish for Maze of Ith and the game is over? Forgive me if I'm wrong but I think it's that simple game one. Then proceed to destroy all their lands and run get a Tabernacle in play, and then their locked?

EDIT: Instead of pulling a Wasteland to the SB try playing a Dust Bowl, reoccurring lando in one card is fun in the right scenario.

[Complete_Jank]

I also say, why no Small Pox?

I thought Sinkhole was the best LD card in the game, but after playing Small Pox for a few months side by side with Sinkhole, I like Small Pox over Sinkhole. It is creature removal and hand disruption. It also doesn't target thus meaning Teferi's Response and Daze do not work on it. It costs the same as Sinkhole too.

I have a few changes coming to my deck, and I might just cut a Sinkhole. Small Pox is better against the current Meta.

Small Pox is the new best LD card, so if I had the choice of just Small Pox or Sinkhole, I'd play Small Pox.

[Poron]

I don't understand why Reanimate is a bad match up, don't you just go Crop Rotation/Living Wish for Maze of Ith and the game is over? Forgive me if I'm wrong but I think it's that simple game one. Then proceed to destroy all their lands and run get a Tabernacle in play, and then their locked?

EDIT: Instead of pulling a Wasteland to the SB try playing a Dust Bowl, reoccurring lando in one card is fun in the right scenario.

Simic Sky Swallower, is your answear. if he can pay tabernacle's upkeep for a couple of turns there's no match.

or anyway Akroma. *land, lotus petal, Akroma for haste* if we haven't Maze of Ith. last but not least good reanimate decks has their Akroma or Simic on turn 1 or 2.

very bad matchup

[Poron]

lol what about this:

False Cure + Refreshing Rain. easy, cheap and fast.

[Cait_Sith]

There are already many False Cure decks out there and I am not sure how much Tomb can improve them.

What about using an Enchantress type build? Since Algae keeps getting replayed piles of card drawing can follow.

[herbig]

This card is excellent anti-Karma tech. People sideboard Karma right?

[Nightmare]

This card is excellent anti-Karma tech. People sideboard Karma right?You're totally off. This is anti-Choking Sands tech if I've ever seen it.

[Poron]

I'm going to change my idea about Tomb... now I feel the life-negation/aggro version is the best..

mmm always B/G yes... little bit aggro, some green life regen let's see:

Crop Rotation to take good lands
4 Dark Confidant to draw and attack
4 Mire Boa
3 GroundBreaker (why not? ;) )

2/3 Volrath's Stronghold (for groundbreaker and to take back creatures..)

4 False Cure
4 Refreshing Rain (!!!!)

3 Sylval Library (to see 4 cards every turn with DC)

this idea is faster and perhaps stronger.. life regen can be used on you to win the aggro matchup beating with swampwaling creatures, or as strong finisher (12 life points loss, not damage!!) combined with a false cure..

perhaps this is better, we have to add cheap life regen and cheap ways to draw (to get the false cure..)

[Cait_Sith]

6 life loss actually. They get +6 -12. A False Cure deck has a number of issues. If you want to go that route then try Skyshroud Cutter.

[Poron]

oh shit, you're right about False cure.. sigh.

can you help me trying a decklist for this type of B/G Aggro/False Cure? Skyshroud Cutter is a very good idea

[Cait_Sith]

After I am back from work I will post something.

[Poron]

oh damn fuse -___-

here's 00.24

[Mirrislegend]

27 Land
----------
4 Bayou
2 Swamp
4 Windswept Heath
2 Forest
3 Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Maze of Ith
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Rishadan Port

33 Spells
----------
3 Spreading Algae
4 Smallpox
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Living Wish
4 Crop Rotation
3 Damnation
3 Exploration
4 Funeral Charm
3 Sylvan Library
2 Haunting Echoes

15 Sideboard
-------------
3 Duress
3 Engineered Plague
1 Phyrexian Negator
1 Gigapede
1 Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Ichneumon Druid
1 Thrashing Wumpus
1 Rishadan Port
1 Maze of Ith
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Glacial Chasm

You would really rather run that last Funeral Charm than the 4th Exploration?
Also 3 Factory/3 Port/3 Wasteland says to me that you just couldnt decide. Drop a Wasteland for a Factory.

[Tacosnape]

What if you took the Tomb of Yawgmoth deck an entirely different direction? Like, say, B/G Swampwalk. There's Mire Boa in PC, Warthog, Wormwood Dryad, etc. This could also synergize with Ninjitsu / Throat Slitter. Other ideas include the ever enormous Crusading Knight, who would be huge and ungodly in this situation. There's also bizarre and janky combinations like Stern Judge and Sink into Takenuma, but I don't think anyone will really try that.

What's also neat here is the synergy it has with Cabal Coffers in any Black-based control deck that runs it. It effectively turns Cabal Coffers into a Swamp, which is a nice boost to the Coffers acceleration. It allows a turn four cycling of decree of pain and a turn three infest if you get both Coffers and Tomb down.

It can also be played very well in any fetchland-heavy deck packing Black (Say BW Confidant or Red Death), allowing Fetchlands to be tapped for mana if the deck goes low on life, and in any deck that runs nonblack basics and anything that costs BB (Hymn to Tourach/Sinkhole/Shade) it can let that nonblack basic cast the BB spell on turn 2.

[Bane of the Living]

What if you took the Tomb of Yawgmoth deck an entirely different direction? Like, say, B/G Swampwalk. There's Mire Boa in PC, Warthog, Wormwood Dryad, etc. This could also synergize with Ninjitsu / Throat Slitter. Other ideas include the ever enormous Crusading Knight, who would be huge and ungodly in this situation. There's also bizarre and janky combinations like Stern Judge and Sink into Takenuma, but I don't think anyone will really try that.

What's also neat here is the synergy it has with Cabal Coffers in any Black-based control deck that runs it. It effectively turns Cabal Coffers into a Swamp, which is a nice boost to the Coffers acceleration. It allows a turn four cycling of decree of pain and a turn three infest if you get both Coffers and Tomb down.

It can also be played very well in any fetchland-heavy deck packing Black (Say BW Confidant or Red Death), allowing Fetchlands to be tapped for mana if the deck goes low on life, and in any deck that runs nonblack basics and anything that costs BB (Hymn to Tourach/Sinkhole/Shade) it can let that nonblack basic cast the BB spell on turn 2.


Thank you for recapping everything already said here.
Thank you for your unnecessary sarcasm. Don't.


You forgot, Flagstones->Yawg, Smallpox...

[Cait_Sith]

I had a brilliant idea while eating a burrito at Taco Bell, but I forgot. Something about turning Tomb into an uncounterable Armageddon. I think it was: Kormus Bell + Night of Soul's Betrayal + Tomb.

[Poron]

naaaa, useless.. and why uncounterable anyway? it's sufficient to counter Kormu's Bell or Night of SB and it wouldn't work at all..

ah obviously, this would kill automaticly your Tomb too and would never come back because of his istant-kill by the "combo" already played..

a simple Armageddon is far better...

[Cait_Sith]

They typically don't see this coming.

[Poron]

true, yes. but we need this? our LD list imho is very good, we just have to test it...

can you help me anyway trying a decklist for the aggro/life-loss version?

[Complete_Jank]

Hmm, I wonder if my R/U LD deck with Kormus bell and Magical Hack would be good anymore.

[torgar]

I think Mox Diamond belong in this deck, seeing how it hinges around running 4 of a legendary land.

[Radley]

4 Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Rishadan Port
4 Bayou
6 Forest
5 Swamp

4 Dark Confidant
4 Mire Boa
2 Gigapede

3 Crop Rotation
3 Spreading Algae
3 Damnation
4 Sinkhole
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Life from the Loam
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Duress

How is that for off the top of my head?

You forgot living wish, 4 crop rotation is better for it thins your deck. I don't know if dark confidant will be good in this deck. I also don't know if mire boa will be good.

[Radley]

Hmm, I wonder if my R/U LD deck with Kormus bell and Magical Hack would be good anymore.

Kormus bell + engineered plagues + gaea's anthem or glorious anthem for the win!

[Eldariel]

oh shit, you're right about False cure.. sigh.

can you help me trying a decklist for this type of B/G Aggro/False Cure? Skyshroud Cutter is a very good idea

You shouldn't run Tomb in such a deck. The manabase should be mostly non-basics, since False Cure costs BB and all the lifegain cards require you to control a Forest. But yea, Invigorate, Skyshroud Cutter, Kavu Predator, the deck basically builds itself. Toss it into 10-land Stompy-shell or Rock-shell or something.

[The Lotus Eater]

Kormus bell + engineered plagues + gaea's anthem or glorious anthem for the win!

Or in the same vein, the old:

Kormus Bell (or any other method of turning swamps into creatures) + Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth + Eradicate

[Radley]

Yes, maybe add an eradicate. But what you really want to do is remove your opponent's cards in play first. Engineered plague is also playable.

[Cait_Sith]

Except the lands don't have types so E. Plague does nothing. For E.Plaue to work you would have to change to tomb to say "forests" play Life and Limb and then play E Plague set to saproling. Land Equilibrium does the same but is easier to pull off and reqs fewer cards.

[Bane of the Living]

Instead of talking about janky noob janker ideas how about we talk about good ones. Ive been playing this in Pox as a 3 of. If I draw it in multiples I discard one to a pox effect. It lets me run mishras factories and wastelands without worrying about my black mana sources. It also lets me tap fetchlands and cabal pit for black mana. Its been amazing in pox, surely its home.

[Lego]

I had a brilliant idea while eating a burrito at Taco Bell, but I forgot. Something about turning Tomb into an uncounterable Armageddon. I think it was: Kormus Bell + Night of Soul's Betrayal + Tomb.

Bitch stealing my ideas and passing them off as your own? Whatev, it's not like I would post such horrible ideas. This is twie as expensive as Geddon, and probably means you won't even be able to play lands again. Replace NoSB with Humility and then play artifact mana.

[Cait_Sith]

Lego, you do realize that post is from long before you ever mentioned Humility + Kormus? Check the time stamps before you spam randomly.

Onto the actual stuff, Humility is certainly nice, but it is off color and it has about equal application as NoSB as top decks early on (later on Humility becomes muchx1000 better) So I can see why you like it. Maybe try a deck n that direction, except for Humility you need 3 colors.

Edit: Oops, Kormus Bell is an artifact, duh. I guess the major choice is do you want an ultra Armageddon that covers the map in puny creatures or do you want a mana lock that gives everyone 1/1s.