[New Card Discussion] Groundbreaker

[Clark Kant]

There isn't a thread regarding this card here yet...

Groundbreaker - GGG
Creature - Elemental
Trample, haste
At end of turn, sacrifice Groundbreaker.
6/1

Groundbreaker is quite good in green IMO.

This isn't red. Red has a lot fewer decent creatures. This means the odds they have removal saved up is quite high. Against green they likely used up their lackey hate on your Rancored Jungle Lion or something.

I think the environment maybe ripe for a neo stompy build. One with a manabase more stable and consistent than 9 land stompy, and with an actual curve, and decent late game threats.

In addition, might Groundbreaker find it's way into a variant of Zilla Stompy?

It makes for a hell of a finisher. Turn one Kird Ape with Rancor (ESG), Double Lightning Bolts/Chain Lightnings/Lava Spikes/Rift Bolts turn 2, and Turn 3 win with Groundbreaker. Seems solid.


A r/g beats type deck already could play ball lighting (which it shouldn't), so why would they all of a sudden want to play groundbreaker?

Good question, but the answer should be very clear if you play a r/g build like Zilla Stompy. R/g decks must be able to play Troll Ascetic, which means the manabase has to support GG consistently, it never needs RR. Thus the decks always play more green, more green lands, 4 Elvish Spirit Guides, and 4 Llanowar Elves over Birds of Paradise due to Llanowar Elves ability to be equipped with Jitte. Either ESG or Llanowar Elves enable a second turn Groundbreaker. Both cards however make Ball Lightning unplayable.

[Getsickanddie]

A r/g beats type deck already could play ball lighting (which it shouldn't), so why would they all of a sudden want to play groundbreaker?

This card should see no play in Legacy.

[Cait_Sith]

It is going to be kickass in Standard, but Legacy has enough options to deal with a card like this I don't see how it is worth it. Also, nice double thread.

[CynicalSquirrel]

I might have to give this a try in Super Duper Green, since it's the nuts with Eternal Witness. The problem is the deck is already overloaded with three drops, and I don't think it would be worth cutting Witness, Troll, or Call of the Herd from the deck.

I could see this being used in some sort of Survival build. The best part about green is you can recur it which red could never do with Ball Lightning, and I think a deck like Survival can really take advantage of that with Witnesses/Genesis etc.

[Maldur Sven Vedukor]

This is the green lightning ball. This can be stopped by a fog, moment's peace, tangle, or a 1/1 with first strike. In standard seems good, but in legacy there are lots of options to stop it.

[Zilla]

Call me an optimist, but I disagree with you guys. The fact that it's not red is an asset, in my opinion. The first thing I thought of when I saw it was to put it into a highly aggressive Rock-style G/b Aggro-Control shell.

Just a very rough, untested decklist I was thinking of:

// Mana
8 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Bayou
3 Windswept Heath
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Volrath's Stronghold

// Creatures
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Wall of Blossoms
4 Dark Confidant
4 Eternal Witness
4 Groundbreaker

// Spells
4 Ghastly Demise
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Unearth


You get Duress and Therapy, which protects you from a lot of the things you'd be worried about, particularly instant speed removal like StP and Bolt. Additionally, Therapy has excellent synergy with Groundbreaker, since you're saccing it at EoT anyway.

Next you get Witness, which lets you recur your Groundbreakers, which means even if they're answered once, you get another try. Witness can also recur Wall of Blossoms, which is a pseudo draw engine. Wall also helps you survive to the late game against Goblins.

Lastly you have Unearth, which cycles into your bigger threats in the early game, and recurs every single threat in the deck in the late game. As an example: Unearth Witness, cast Witness, bring back Groundbreaker, attack. For a measly 4 mana.

Unearth lets you recur as many Witnesses as are in your yard as well. Recur Witness, bring back Unearth, cast, bring back Witness, etc.

The idea is appealing to me because there are so many inherent synergies in the deck that it seems like it could be very strong.

Obviously this isn't finely tuned, and I'm sure it can be improved, but it's a place to start. I'd consider splashing white for StP and Watchwolf, but I'm not sure Groundbreaker's mana requirements would allow for a stable 3-color manabase.

In any case, I think it's wrong to dismiss a card just because its alternate variant isn't played in another color. Red decks typically don't have disruption or recursion, which is why Ball Lightning is so fragile. Groundbreaker is in green - the color of mana accelleration, manafixing, and graveyard recursion. In this case, changing the color has in many ways changed the card's inherent possibilities.

[scrumdogg]

Groundbreaker could also fit quite nicely at the top of some Stompy curve as it is a nice target for all sorts of stupid pump, including Berserk. G/W also comes to mind as a color combination to explore as you get lots of anti-combo stall in cards like Chant, Abeyance, Rule of Law, Geddon & interesting things like Valor (6/1 trampling first striking hasty guys might be OK), Hierarch, STP, Hedge Troll, Glare of Subdual, various tutor effects including SotF & the one which stacks 3 critters on top of your deck & all the usual suspects like Witness, Genesis, Wild Mongrel, Basking Rootwalla, Troll Ascetic etc etc.

[insertnamehere]

I think this will fit into any freen deck nicely. After the green portion is done we could very well see a green sligh deck come out of this.

[Elfrago]

Stompy will usually never have enough mana to cast this AND pump it the same turn. Simply sucks...

[C.P.]

The fact that we have Ball Lightning in a color that is not red gives a large possibility. I like Zilla's idea, even through it seems a bit janky. Add some deeds and you have a neo legacy Rock. Interesting.

Well, It might be just me... I like unearth a lot.:smile:

[Clark Kant]

Not the current 9 land stompy anyways. But that version is kind of unstable, and I fear outdated. I was thinking that maybe a more stable version of the deck, one with some late game threats and such could be arrived at with some tweaking.

For the record, I tested this in Zilla Stompy and it's not as good as I was thinking it would be.

It does make for a very nice finisher and it getting removed isn't as big a problem since people don't expect something like this and aim their removal on your other creatures already, but it's not good against first strikers, and your other creatures are quite good too so finding room isn't easy. It is good against goblins however letting you race them a lot more easily. And something like this also seems neccesary in the combo matchup. All in all, I would run 2 perhaps, possibly cutting one Magma Jet and one BTS or something for it.

Zilla your B/g build looks incredible. I think it runs the risk of mana flooding itself, and it probably would benefit from some late game staying power, so I would recommend replacing the Llanowar Elves with Troll Ascetic. You run more mana sources than Zilla Stompy even though your curve is so much lower. The only threat you're running is Groundbreaker, which IMO isn't a great idea. If you plan to win by tapping creatures and attacking, it might be nice to replace those that can't attck, like Wall of Blossoms with those that can (River Boa?). It just seems wrong to see a B/g deck without some regenerators (Boa) and a couple of Deed as a back up plan. But Deed is probably too high on the curve, it should definately be in the sideboard though IMO.

All in all, the direction you're taking it seems really cool and I look forward to seeing a more tweaked out build. Unearth, Groundbreaker, Eternal Witness, Duress and Hymn/Cabal Therapy are just screaming to be in a deck together.

[Zilla]

Thanks for your observations and suggestions, Clark. To be honest, I literally put this list together in 5 minutes, just sort of tossing every synergistic card I could think of in there, without too much attention to curve or manabase. There no doubt that the list will need tweaking. I just wanted to get a rough idea outlined.

I agree the deck will probably need late game staying power, and I'd considered Troll, but I think they'd make Confidant unplayable. 12 3cc threats with no ways to fix your draw could prove fatal. If I swap out anything for Troll or another finisher it will probably be Confidant, or at least a couple of them.

As for cutting Wall of Blossoms, I think it's likely a bad idea. Because your main beatstick doesn't stick around to chump block, you're probably going to want ways to hinder other aggro in the early game. Plus it's a miniature draw engine in conjunction with Witness and Unearth.

Another card I'd like to fit in is Mindstab Thrull, probably in the SB against combo. 4 Mindstabs and 8 ways to recur them seems super tasty. Against any deck with mana disruption I'd worry about the BB in the cost, but against most combo it should be tenable.

Anyway, enough with the conjecture. I'm going to try to get some testing done with the list as it is and tweak it from there. I'll post some observations once I have a chance to make them.

[Rastadon]

While it is a bit out of your curve Stampeding Wildebeests would be crazy here. Eternal Witness and Wall of Blossom are now CA engines. Groundbreaker comes back turn after turn. It does detract from your recursion strategy, but what would you be Unearthing other than Groundbreaker anyway? Wildebeests has far more synergy with the deck and gives you more muscle work with.

[noobslayer]

What the? Who removed my posts in oposition to the playability of this card?

EDIT: This is grounds for a cinspiracy.

[Cait_Sith]

1) Conspiracy

2) There are 2 identical threads the need to be merged. Nothing was erased noob.

[noobslayer]

You've won this round Cait Sith.

I'll reiterate, I just got done testing sligh, and llo and behold my opponent is playing mono red sligh, sporting this card. Fanatics, Lavamancer activations, and Bolts made damn sure it never connected. Whether it's green or red, it dies to the cheapest removal in the format.

[Poron]

ball lightning isn't a legacy-viable card.

[noobslayer]

Your point being? Just because this is green doesn't make it much better. Godzilla's deck using Volrath's Stronghold as a recurring engine is cute, but I don't believe it's anywhere near viable. Look to Gigapede for a green 6/1.

[outsideangel]

ball lightning isn't a legacy-viable card.

Seconded.

We have Ball Lightning already, and nobody uses it, and it's in the color it's probably the most suited for. I can't see how making it green makes it any more playable.

[Cait_Sith]

Look to Gigapede for a green 6/1.

Imagine if 'Pede has trample. Hehehe.

[noobslayer]

If 'Pede had trample this discusion would have never beugn.

[C.P.]

If 'Pede had trample this discusion would have never beugn.

It still would have, since Gigapede and Groundbreaker does not share same niche. Comparing them is absurd, since they are not the same at all.

Gigapede, as you probably know, is a Deadly Insect variant. It is an untargetable threat that was meant to hose control and targeted removal, but weak against aggro. Its one toughness means that it dies no matter what if it happens to block or be blocked. Gigapede is a cool card and all, but it is just a recurring Deadly Insect.

However, Groundbreaker, or Ball Lightning for that matter, designed as a pseudo-burn spell. It is just a burn spell that is easier to stop. They do not stick around to be a constant threat, but faster. Note that they serve as a lava axe variant, rather than a normal creature.

The fact they are both 6/1 does not mean they serve same purpose. Giant sulfuge, on the other hand is more of a gigapede/ball lightning hybrid.

[noobslayer]

Giant Solifuge is absolutely rediculous, and I can't comprehend why it hasn't been found it's home as a suitable win condition somewhere yet. Replace Groundbreakers with Solifuges in zillas list and it looks better.

[Zilla]

Giant Solifuge is absolutely rediculous, and I can't comprehend why it hasn't been found it's home as a suitable win condition somewhere yet. Replace Groundbreakers with Solifuges in zillas list and it looks better.
This just isn't accurate. You can't recur Solifuge with Unearth which is half the reason why I'd splash black or even consider the deck to begin with.

[Clark Kant]

Zilla, I honestly don't think Confidant belong if it means that we are unable to utilize any of green's (Ascetic) or black's solid beaters (Hypnotic, Negator etc)

That said, when testing the list, I would definately look into the Stampeding Wildabeest / Serow idea someone else mentioned.

I honestly think it best combos with the Wall of Blossoms and Eternal Witness + Disruption.

But bouncing back and replaying Groundbreaker turn after turn is just tasty.

They also add some badly needed fat.

[C.P.]

Zilla, I honestly don't think Confidant belong if it means that we are unable to utilize any of green's (Ascetic) or black's solid beaters (Hypnotic, Negator etc)

That said, when testing the list, I would definately look into the Stampeding Wildabeest / Serow idea someone else mentioned.

I honestly think it best combos with the Wall of Blossoms and Eternal Witness + Disruption.

But bouncing back and replaying Groundbreaker turn after turn is just tasty.

They also add some badly needed fat.

Confidant is the only true card advantage in his deck. I don't think it should be cut. Specter will be too slow for the deck to utilllize, and BB in the casting cost makes it hard to cast. About negator, I'm not sure.

@Noobslayer

You're missing my point. My point is that the groundbreaker has its own unique niche, and is not comparable to any other cards than Ball Lightning. Sulfuge is a cool card, but it is worse than groundbreaker as an aggro threat. We should be disscussing how groundbreaker can be used in green, not how cards that has x/1 is better than groundbreaker.

[despo]

But bouncing back and replaying Groundbreaker turn after turn is just tasty.



Am I missing something? Stampeding wildebeests/serow bounce at the beginning of your upkeep and you have to sac groundbreaker at end of turn. The only way I see to have a Groundbreaker each turn is by bouncing witness and using it to recur your groundbreaker, but by the time you can do that you should have won with your 5/4 trampler.

I don't think groundbreaker is viable in a format where everybody is prepared to deal with an X/1 creature on turn 1.

[Rastadon]

Aaah. My bad. RTFC.

[nitewolf9]

I see no reason not to run berserk in zilla's list. 6 damage for one mana seems pretty good.

[Maldur Sven Vedukor]

Gruoundbreaker it's too weak. It can't reanimate or bounce itself and it may target of spells and abilities. As C.P. said, it's a pseudo-burn spell. Green has better creatures and burn isn't for green, it's for red.
And against groundbreaker i could answer fog, stp, moment's peace, fire/ice, lightning bolt, etc. Burn spells are not affected with these cards.

Ichorid is a lot better. It's the same kind of creature, i think.

[Clark Kant]

who plays fog and moment's piece. janky decks you should be able to beat anyways that who.

Ichorid isn't comparable.

Did you see Zillas build, you have the option of duressing away any StPs etc, and unearthing this guy to recur him.

For those saying we have to keep in Confidant and we can't run any more 3cc cards because of Confidant, how do you expect to win? You need to play some permanent threats too (esp if they can abuse Unearth), Ascetic, or Negator or Hippe or something. Groundbreaker is nice but it's NOT going to win the game by itself. If you want Confidant, play him, but do play some threats in there, instead of Walls and such that put zero pressure (unless you're going with the Stampeding Serow plan).

Berserk would be nice too.

[Complete_Jank]

I am certain this will see play in Legacy. Unfortunately it will be in the 0-X-0 bracket.

[C.P.]

who plays fog and moment's piece. janky decks you should be able to beat anyways that who.

Ichorid isn't comparable.

Did you see Zillas build, you have the option of duressing away any StPs etc, and unearthing this guy to recur him.

For those saying we have to keep in Confidant and we can't run any more 3cc cards because of Confidant, how do you expect to win? You need to play some permanent threats too (esp if they can abuse Unearth), Ascetic, or Negator or Hippe or something. Groundbreaker is nice but it's NOT going to win the game by itself. If you want Confidant, play him, but do play some threats in there, instead of Walls and such that put zero pressure (unless you're going with the Stampeding Serow plan).

Berserk would be nice too.

The cards that you claim that the deck should run has 3cc. The curve will not look very nice once you remove 2cc for 3cc. Confidant is a perfect card here, since only other means of card advantage in this deck is witness. This deck is not pure aggro, so you need some other means of compensating for your slow speed.

[Mirrislegend]

That little deck Zilla whipped up looks some good to me. I've been waiting for someone to break Unearth! But I'm tempted to take the aggro route, replacing Wall of Blossoms or mana-men with Wild Mongrels. My first inclination was to go for the Walls, but I understand the ridiculousness of Therapy+Wall+reanimation. Thoughts on tilting it towards aggro? (in terms of if it should be done, and how to do it)

[Bane of the Living]

Well I faced a burn deck this weekend with Goblins and took a whopping 22 damage in 3 games from Ball Lightnings. Thats scary.

Now put the card into green, something that already has muscle against gobs. Zilla Stompy is nuts against gobs because of big green fatties.

It is the color change that makes a difference, just like with Damnation. Wrath of God is a card we've known because its in white decks that preform a certain way. Now Wrath of God will be played in the same color as discard, just as Groundbreaker will be printed in the color with the most mana accel and creature pump. Berserk and ESG's make this thing look really scary. I hope a good enough deck is focused on him. I wouldnt be suprised if it was mono-G.

[Zilla]

The cards that you claim that the deck should run has 3cc. The curve will not look very nice once you remove 2cc for 3cc. Confidant is a perfect card here, since only other means of card advantage in this deck is witness. This deck is not pure aggro, so you need some other means of compensating for your slow speed.
Technically Wall of Blossoms is virtual card advantage as well, in that it replaces itself, and remains in play. It also turns Unearth into card advantage for the same reason. It's not huge card advantage, but it's worth noting that it's better than just a cantrip because it leaves you a permanent in play.


That little deck Zilla whipped up looks some good to me. I've been waiting for someone to break Unearth! But I'm tempted to take the aggro route, replacing Wall of Blossoms or mana-men with Wild Mongrels. My first inclination was to go for the Walls, but I understand the ridiculousness of Therapy+Wall+reanimation. Thoughts on tilting it towards aggro? (in terms of if it should be done, and how to do it)
Noooo! I had considered exactly what you're suggesting, but I actually gave the deck about 10 games' worth of testing last night against Goblins and I can say without a doubt that Wall of Blossoms is one of the msot important cards in the deck against them. Pre-board, the matchup seemed (surprisingly) slightly better than even.

You stall the early game with Demise, Walls, and Witness recursion. Once you've wiped out their resources through attrition, you seal the deal with Groundbreakers. Although it's not singlehandedly responsible for my wins, I didn't lose a single game in which I had a Wall of Blossoms in my opening grip. Even resolved SGC's and unblocked Lackies didn't cost me the game. An unanswered Sharpshooter is truly brutal, however, and I aim to address that with an updated build.

Post board, siding out Duress for Plagues, the games were quite positive.


That said, I agree with the general consensus that the deck is lacking in real oomph outside of Groundbreaker. Although you have 8 ways to recur Groundbreaker, (and Volrath's Stronghold to do it every single turn if you want to), I feel like the deck needs more threats.

To that end, I'll be testing the following revised list:

// Mana
4 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Bayou
3 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Mire
1 Volrath's Stronghold

// Creatures
3 Quirion Ranger
4 Llanowar Elves
3 Dark Confidant
4 Vinelasher Kudzu
4 Wall of Blossoms
4 Eternal Witness
2 Groundbreaker

// Spells
4 Ghastly Demise
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Unearth


This list keeps Groundbreaker as a 2-of, because with as many ways as there are to recur them, more than one in the hand is often unnecessary, and in most cases they act as finishers as opposed to primary threats.

The list focuses on Vinelasher Kudzu as an alternate threat, using more fetchlands to pump it (which also increases Demise's usefulness), and Quirion Ranger to return and replay lands, also pumping the Kudzu. It also allows you to play both offensively and defensively by untapping your attacking creatures, all the while protecting your manabase from Wasteland. Lastly, it's an additional answer to a turn 1 Lackey.

That Kudzu can be recurred with Unearth is an added bonus, obviously. Also, for those worrying about the deck's ability to go aggro, you'd be surprised how often 2 or 3 Witnesses seal the deal in the lategame. I'd often find myself with a board of nothing but lands and maybe a Wall or an Elf, with 3 or so Witnesses in the yard. A topdecked Unearth brought back all 3 Elves for only 3 mana and left me with Unearth in the hand for further use.

The deck may look weak on paper, but it's full of synergy. Certainly it needs more testing and tweaking, but it's a total blast to play. I'll let you guys know how testing goes with the build I posted above when I have more info.

[C.P.]

Very intersting list. Cursed Scroll might be good in the deck, since your only removal at present is the demise.