[Deck] UW Fish

[Citrus-God]

Yeah... I went there. I took out Confidants and went for a slower draw engine... it's called AK... of course if I'm going to run AK, I should run Merchant Scrolls as well since I can make a chain of annoying AKs and go nuts after that. But in return, I still have an insane draw engine, and I in incredible mana base being able to support WW.

Heres what I have so far... I built it like last night actually, so that's why it's still in development.


// Mana 17
4 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept Heath
1 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
2 Plains
5 Island


// Creatures 15
4 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 Serendib Efreet
4 Jotun Grunt
4 Meddling Mage


// Spells 29
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
3 Merchant Scroll
1 Mystical Tutor
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Umezawa's Jitte


// Sideboard 15
3 Tivadar's Crusade
3 Pithing Needle
2 Stifle
1 Trickbind
3 Exalted Angel
1 Hibernation
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Echoing Truth


What I love about this deck? The Merchant Scrolls. They are card quality. They find your answer, they find Mystical Tutor for those Crusades/Swords, find those Stifles for Combo. Why only run two counterspells? I would go three, but with Scrolls, I can do the occasional Grunt + Scroll trick. I might cut one Counterspell for a land or random solution.

What's different?

Isamaru: This hound beatz for 2, and answers a 1st turn Lackey. I admit they arent that great, but it's the best card this deck has that answers Lackey. It should be cut for something like Galina's Knight though...

Efreet: I dont have enough blue cards to pitch sometimes, and your only allowed to pitch one AK. Adding this guy in makes things saucy.

4th Grunt: You get the point.

Counterspell: I can see cutting one, since I can fetch them with Scrolls. I think it should be something... I dunno, like FoF.


Anyways, tell me what you guys think. I still need work on this deck.

[C.P.]

Ninja of deep hours, and mother of runes. Those cards are so much better than Isamaru. Ninja is another blue card that can be pitched to FoW, as well.

[nightshade81]

Have you tested 2 Serra Avenger in the place 2 Serendib Efreet? They’re rather good and a Serra Avenger w/ a Jitte is rather disgusting. I know you said you like the extra cards to pitch but honestly you have 32 blue cards in the deck and 30 is more then sufficient to support Force of Will.

I'm not a huge fan of AK but they become more effective with Merchant Scroll. Still FoF cost the same as Merchant Scroll + AK. Older (way older like Gush/Dryad older) versions of Gro used this draw engine w/ Intuitions and 2 Merchant Scrolls, and since then it has evolved into just a cantrip engine.

[Tacosnape]

Accumulated Knowledge is AWFUL. I can't begin to stress this enough. Your draw engine is slow. One AK, then Merch for a second AK is a net card advantage of 1 for six mana. That's horrible.

The card advantage engine in Fish has always been the chief point of debate. It's evolved away from Standstill due to Aether Vial being a 4-of in the most prominent deck in the format and the manabase struggling to support Mishra's Factory (Though 2C Fish can do it.) And without Black, you don't have Dark Confidant.

Jitte is, of course, card advantage against certain decks. And like Threshold, what Fish lacks in numerical advantage it makes up for in quality and consistency. But AK is not the answer here. You'd be better off upping your cantrips to around Threshold's number, and that's still not a fantastic plan.

Other card engines have been suggested, ranging from Auratog/Perilous Research/Hatching Plans to Coastal Piracy, but each is a stretch.

I think Ninja of the Deep Hours is a fair idea if you don't want to try the Standstill/Factory route.

[rockSTAR]

Where are the silver knights????:confused:

[Solpugid]

I tried making a UW fish deck recently. It didn't turn out so well, but here's the list (for some ideas):

Creatures: 15
4 Meddling mage
3 Court hussar
3 Jotun grunt
3 Mother of runes
2 Serendib efreet

Counters: 13
4 Force of will
3 Daze
3 Counterspell
3 Stifle

Other stuff: 14
4 Serum visions
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to plowshares
2 Umezawa's jitte

Lands: 18
4 Tundra
4 Flooded strand
3 Polluted delta
3 Island
1 Plains
3 Mishra's factory


Obviously I have very little in the way of card advantage. In fact, all I have is the hussars, and they've been subpar.

I absolutely LOVE stifle in fish decks, mainboard. You want to play the tempo game as much as possible early on, and stifle can often snag amazing tempo for you. It also answers first turn lackey for a turn, if need be.

The mishra's factories have been quite good, since they can grab a jitte and run with it.

I agree that mother of runes should be run over isamaru. I've been there and tried that, but mommy is too much good in this kind of deck. She makes meddling mage a threat, you know.

Once again, I know this list has major flaws. That's why I never posted it on the site. But I hope it will give you some ideas. Oh, and by the way, I have to say I'm not hugely fond of the AK engine either. Maybe if merchant scroll was an instant...maybe.

[Citrus-God]

Accumulated Knowledge is AWFUL. I can't begin to stress this enough. Your draw engine is slow. One AK, then Merch for a second AK is a net card advantage of 1 for six mana. That's horrible.

The card advantage engine in Fish has always been the chief point of debate. It's evolved away from Standstill due to Aether Vial being a 4-of in the most prominent deck in the format and the manabase struggling to support Mishra's Factory (Though 2C Fish can do it.) And without Black, you don't have Dark Confidant.

Jitte is, of course, card advantage against certain decks. And like Threshold, what Fish lacks in numerical advantage it makes up for in quality and consistency. But AK is not the answer here. You'd be better off upping your cantrips to around Threshold's number, and that's still not a fantastic plan.

Other card engines have been suggested, ranging from Auratog/Perilous Research/Hatching Plans to Coastal Piracy, but each is a stretch.

I think Ninja of the Deep Hours is a fair idea if you don't want to try the Standstill/Factory route.

Thing is... I already have my card quality.... all I need is the quantity. I know Fish is considered a Tempo deck... but my deck isnt a Tempo deck, it's an aggro-control deck. The AK/Merchant Scroll is designed to give this deck a strong late game... however, I kinda took AK out. I wanted something more... able to feed Grunt, dig deep, and will give me quantity... that card is known as Fact or Fiction. Yes, it's slow, but that allows me to not only run less copies, but also keep my Scroll engine. But I will consider that suggestion.


@queergeek81: I'm using FoF right now actually. It's been doing very well for me, and it's been much better with Grunts. Also, I can run less copies meaning I can run more business spells. Serra Avanger will be tested, but I kinda dislike the fact she has to trade with a Goose'.


@Solpugid: haha. My deck is named Fish because I brached off of it, but it's not a Tempo deck. I would more likely consider it an Aggro-Control deck, bucause I usually dont have much interest in being the beatdown deck. I guess this could be a Tempo deck since I took out the AK.

[Tacosnape]

FoF's a much better choice. It can be played in Fish, it just serves a different purpose than most other card engines. Rather than give you lots of card advantage early, it refills you after your initial resources are exhausted.

[Citrus-God]

And it's an Impulse that can feed my Grunts. Anyways, any more suggestions or advice anyone?

[Mirrislegend]

@AntiAmerican:
-You reference Counterspell in your card explanations, but it appears nowhere in your list.
-I know someone mentioned it before, but it bears saying again. Where are the Silver Knights?
-Lastly, I've found Azorius Guildmage to be a good addition to U/W Fish. Maybe not good enough for MD, but definitely should be considered for the sideboard. It fills a few different holes (vulnerability to big creatures) very nicely.
-Running 4 Isamaru and 4 Jotun Grunt worries me. Fish cannot afford to be drawing dead cards, and a second Isamaru or Grunt is exactly that.

EDIT:
Also, I recommend that everyone try to take some lessons from Solpugid's list. I feel he does the counter package and general spells perfectly (aside from said lack of card advantage).

[Hanni]

Lands (18)
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Windswept Heath
4 Tundra
2 Island
2 Plains
3 Wasteland

Creatures (16)
3 Mother of Runes
3 Jotun Grunt
4 Silver Knight
2 Serra Avenger
4 Meddling Mage

Spells (26)
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
2 Fact or Fiction
3 Stifle
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Umezawa's Jitte

The Wastelands aren't a bad touch since they can keep Goblins off of their secondary color or Rishadan Ports and it can be complimented with Stifle as a slight land destruction theme against decks like Red Death or Threshold to lock out important colors.

Since the deck is UW, it is possible to build the manabase to support a WW cost. My manabase may be shaky as its just a rough draft.

By supporting WW, you get Silver Knight which improves your Goblins matchup (since you lack Engineered Plague sideboard and Tivadar's Crusade doesn't provide virtual card advantage). I realize his slight redundancy with Mother of Runes but Mom will often get picked off by Fanatic or Incinerator before it has the ability to come online. First Strike is pretty nice with Jitte and it can dodge red removal in general, which can be helpful. It's basically a metagame decision for Goblins that's not dead everywhere else... and it can provide virtual card advantage.

By also supporting WW, you can run Avenger, which I think is a stronger choice than Serendib. You still have plenty of blue spells to pitch to FoW.

I think FoF is a really interested choice but I think it's a solid option. It's a little slow early on but if you can manage to ramp up to 4 lands, it will give you some card advantage, quality, and fill the grave a little for Grunt. I'm still not sure that this deck wants a 4cc spell though... ramping up to 4 against Goblins will be too slow, as well as any other LD based strategy like Deadguy, Red Death, etc. However, I haven't yet decided what other 2 card draw effects would be better... and I'm not sure that 2 extra cantrips is the way to go either.

Other than that, most of the list I presented is just a direct port from my UWb Fish minus the light black splash.

On a different note, it is interesting to see how many new Fish decks continue to pop up nowadays. When I first started working on Fish, everyone thought Fish was a terrible deck for Legacy. After alot of development on UWb Fish, it seems like alot of people nowadays are toying around with UWr Fish or UBr or UW etc. My biggest question I pose to all the different builds out there is... what does this color combination (for this thread, UW) do better than UWb, what problematic matchups are made better, etc. The whole reason I splash black is for the card advantage utility beater of Dark Confidant maindeck (with Duress now in the sideboard with Lose Hope maindeck) with Engineered Plague in the sideboard for Goblins as the ultimate virtual card advantage Goblins hoser. The manabase here is stronger but I'm not sure if that warrants the loss of both Dark Confidant and Engineered Plague. Silver Knight MD with Tivadar's Crusade SB (or Blasts) should replace Engineered Plague fine but I still don't see a replacement for Dark Confidant... he's just THAT good.

[Citrus-God]

@AntiAmerican:
-You reference Counterspell in your card explanations, but it appears nowhere in your list.
-I know someone mentioned it before, but it bears saying again. Where are the Silver Knights?
-Lastly, I've found Azorius Guildmage to be a good addition to U/W Fish. Maybe not good enough for MD, but definitely should be considered for the sideboard. It fills a few different holes (vulnerability to big creatures) very nicely.
-Running 4 Isamaru and 4 Jotun Grunt worries me. Fish cannot afford to be drawing dead cards, and a second Isamaru or Grunt is exactly that.

@Counterspell: I edit my list and grew way too lazy to edit my explanations. I will try and squeeze in one Counterspell for the SB, as it's only useful against slower decks.

@Silver Knight: I already go 45/55 against Goblins. IMO, adding Silver Knight in will weaken my match-up entirely, as I have great interest to answer Lackey 1st turn.

@Guildmage: I will try Guildmage. I do like the tapping effect a lot, but it seems kinda dead imo...

@4 Hound and 4 Grunts: Merchant Scroll for Brainstorm.... you'll be quite suprised at how this deck just turns every dead card into an answer or a threat if it becomes dead.


@Hanni: Yes, my whole reasoning for running UW was because of mana base issues I had against Goblins. Although I lose Duress, IMO, can easily just Merchant Scroll for FoW and force my opponent to play around it has became one the best plays. Against Solidarity, I Merchant Scroll for FoWs, and I protect my Mages. Because this has a faster clock than Threshold agaisnt Solidarity, my Dazes become much more useful.

My reasoning for running Tivadar's Crusade (Merchant Scroll via Tutor -> Crusade) is because I can find it faster than Plague, and the fact my mana base is much more stable with the fact it's UW.

Also, against Red Death and Deadguy, you should be Scrolling for FoW/Misdirection/Stifle for Disruption and Brainstorms to optimize in order to make your mana base more stable.

The reasoning to run this version of Fish from my perspective is that it's better at stalling into the late game without the help of Confidant. I honestly hated watching him get shot down.... I love him, but bang bang, his dead.
I know Confidant is great, but losing countless of aggro control mirrors to 12 Burn Cards have made me want to stop playing him. Seeing Dark Confidant Remanded for the next forever turns against Solidarity has made it very dangerous for me as well. I realize you dont see why Dark Confidant was taken out, but from my view, it's because of the format. I will put them back in when my metagame stops being so aggro infested. I know Black has tons of perks for this deck, but I tend to play this deck much more aggressively, but I also dont want dead cards in the process such as extra Jittes, and lands.

[Solpugid]

I think you might be dismissing silver knight too quickly. He's amazing against goblins, I'm sure you know that, but it's his effectiveness with jitte that makes him a great beater in other matchups. In my list, that I posted above, I was considering running knight over the hussars and serra avengers/efreets and then adding in an additional jitte. This will weaken force of will slightly, but make aggro decks much easier to handle. Considering your environment, I would suggest testing this path.

Azorius guildmage: Long ago I tried running her in UGw thresh and she was underwhelming. Too often I had a counterspell in hand, and had to choose between tapping down a potential attacker or keeping mana open for stopping a new threat. As long as you run counterspell, you'll have the same problem with her. However, if you don't (or run few of it) than she has very little downside. And not only does she stop attacking, she taps blockers so you can finish an opponent, and she can act as stifle-on-a-stick. And I do love me some stifle. Give her a shot, in this deck she may be what the doctor ordered.

[Nydaeli]

I just wanted to bring up the possibility of running Mask of Memory as a replacement card draw effect. It's got great synergy with Grunt since it fills the graveyard. The only problem is that there might not be enough creatures to run it on. A 2/2 split with Jittes would seem like a good starting point.

I think Exalted Angel might deserve some consideration, probably in the Avenger slot. Relating to Hanni's question, I think Angel could be a distinct advantage that the UW build might have over UWb, since they can't really be run alongside Confidants.

I feel like with Silver Knights the deck wants to play more aggressively - they are most effective against Goblins if they come down on turn 2. But many of the deck's first turn plays require blue mana - playing a cantrip or Dazing something. What's the best way to address this tension? It might be most effective to cut the Dazes and Visions, turning the deck into more of a WW/u style deck.

[Solpugid]

But many of the deck's first turn plays require blue mana - playing a cantrip or Dazing something. What's the best way to address this tension?

Tundra?

Not trying to be rude, really, but WW/u is a very different deck. Mask of memory also requires not only creatures, but unblocked ones. Man, this deck could go so many directions...

[Hanni]

As I've always said about Fish decks, they are very versatile and there are many directions they can be taken. Anything from mana denial Vintage style, to Weathered Wyafarer toolbox via Wasteland/Factory/Quicksand, to Cloud of Faeries/Equipment, there's many routes.

I don't think the Silver Knight is necessarily aggressive. My intentions for adding it was to create a virtual card advantage against Goblins, since it can block any Goblin and live as to allow you to continually kill off their Goblins, since they will be playing Goblins nearly every turn and often in multiples. It's also impossible for them to remove (StP and Jitte being exceptions) and can also swing through freely as a win condition. It's also pretty good with a Jitte attached against random aggro. UW should have no problems getting to WW, and Silver Knight does not need to be dropped turn 2.

Mask of Memory is an interesting idea. Mother of Runes and Avenger cover some of the evasion, though I'm not entirely sure how effective it would be. It still seems worth playesting though, in place of the FoF.

I think Merchant Scroll requires far too much tempo... your paying 1U just to tutor for an instant. By the time you get around to actually playing the spell, you've lost alot of time. One major design concept of Fish is that it plays extremely fast... which is necessary in a format as fast as Legacy. Free countermagic and 1cc-2cc spells allows the deck to have something to play turn 1-2 and multiple things to play thereafter. Merchant Scroll -> Mystical Tutor -> Tivadar's Crusade is a 6 mana investment that requires 2 turns. I would hardly call that spectacular against Goblins, especially in the face of Rishadan Port.

Exalted Angel is stil very iffy for me. This deck has no acceleration via Tomb or Traitors and it's a 2 turn investment at 3cc + 4cc. A simple StP will completely wreck it if it drops and you can't back it as well. I think Umezawa's Jitte is enough of a mid-late game bomb in itself and that Angel just further slows the deck down. It may be great and I don't want to discourage trying it... but ultimately, I don't think it fits the deck at all.

[Citrus-God]

I usually side Angel against Midgame decks or Aggro-Control mirrors. I loved them so far, but it's an open metagame slot.

My reason to run Merchant Scroll was because I had free-countermagic. I play a Hound and block for a bit, and turn 2 I grab something like a Brainstorm or another FoW. It's been very grateful to me in testing.

I'll test Silver Knight again, but I feel that Galina's Knight would be much better for me in other match ups, as it's Blue and pitches to FoW.

The Merchant Scrolls actually dont grab Crusade suprisingly sometimes... a majority of times, it's always been Stifles, FoF, and Trickbind. Merchant Scrolls may be tempo consuming, but the fact that it's such a high quality card in this deck makes that card worth running.

Mask doesnt seem like a bad idea, but my deck does awful in the mirror without the help of cards that are skepticle to Needle or Removal. Running Scrolls and FoF means I can protect my FoF and guys with counters.

[nightshade81]

Have ever thought of 1 Enlightened Tutor MD to search out Jitte or a Pithing Needle. I know paying 5 for a Jitte sounds like a lot but in an aggro/burn match-up you know how important that is to get other there. Paying 4 for a Pithing Needle is worth it in several matchups.

-1 Mystical Tutor
-1 Umezawa's Jitte
+1 Enlightened Tutor
+1 Pithing Needle

This would allow for you to find a Jitte with 6 cards.

I was wondering why MD Mystical Tutor? I think it should be in the SB. There's nothing in the MB that Merchant Scroll can't get that Mystical Tutor can. (EDIT: Other then Serum Visions)

If you want to take the E Tutor to the extreme you could also through in a Seal of Cleansing, Serenity, and EE. Although I don't advice it.