[Brainstorming] Affinity as Aggro/Control

[Iranon]

I've been working on this on and off for some time. The concept has shown potential, but I haven't found an implementation I am truly satisfied with.

Many Affinity lists run control/disruption tools in the sideboard as it is and they seem a pretty natural fit. Most of them have enough uses to be valid maindeck choices as well, yet I haven't read much about any efforts to truly go Aggro/Control.

***

Cards I'm thinking of:

Chalice of the Void - A major obstacle for Combo and Burn, can even be used to power out Affinity creatures after you played the rest of your free spells.

Pithing Needle - This deserves mention because it will actually be an asset in the Goblins match-up which will need help if you sacrifice your capability to out-aggro them

Cabal Therapy - Tried and tested with reasonable success. The ability to cast it with Flashback turn 1 is an unpleasant prospect for many opposing decks.

Meddling Mage - Has been maindeck material before. Can be utterly crippling in conjunction with Therapy or Duress but that is not without its own problems.

There are a few other options I'd consider but those have steep prerequisites without being worth building the deck around in themselves --> not very useful for now.

***

Questions, questions...

1) Would an Aggro/Control Affinity require rebuilding from scratch, or would it be mostly a swimple swap of maindeck and sideboard cards?

2) How many disruption tools? I think 10-12 would be the absolute minimum. There is no attractive library manipulation available, so any less would make the deck unstable (not drawing enough early on to matter yet topdecking substandard cards in the mid- to late game).

3) Which parts of the shell are sacred? Cutting the established coloured spells would retain consistency and the capacity for explosive starts, but Atog/Disciple shenanigans actually become more attractive if you can be sure there won't be any upleasant surprises.

4) Would a polished decklist be playable in an open metagame? It's very easy to make this a crushing hate deck if you know what to gun for, but Legacy is too diverse for that.

[kicks_422]

Taking Affinity to an aggro-control route simply dilutes the Affinity concept of the deck. Trying to fit in all or even just half of the cards you mentioned (Chalice/Needle/Mage/Therapy) would seriously hamper the Aggro part of the deck that it can't even be called aggro-control anymore.

Why run Chalice, when arguably your best card (Disciple of the Vault) is 1cc? Also countercats with Needle, if you're going to run 3-4 of them. It's alright in Faerie Stompy to run Chalice and Needle, as they are Trinket Mage-able and have FoW back-up.

Meddling Mage + Atog + Disciple of the Vault/Cabal Therapy = 4 colors. Why not add Berserk to make it 5 color, while you're at it?

Affinity is best at beating down. A little bit of protection won't hurt, but as a back-up, not a vital part of the deck.

[Cait_Sith]

I am going to be the honest one here: Affinity sucks. It may have an excellent early game, but its mid game is iffy and it has no late game. If you really want to cover up that weakness you are at least running the correct colors (except I always prefer Black and Blue) I ran a build with 7 Counterspells (of varying types), 7 Draw Spells, 18 Lands, and a bunch of Affinity cards (including 2x Broodstar)

[aisman132000]

affinity's best chance for success is speed. if it can get out fast enough it can crush goblins (plague out of the board helps) and threshold. sb disruption definetly but you can't take up to many md slots with it cause it slows you down to much.

[Eldariel]

While I don't know if it's going to result in anything playable (the prime strength of the deck is the fast kill that you'll basically have to give up for control elements), there're a few cards worthy of consideration:
-Sphere of Resistance: Affinity-cards are reduced in cost as much as they're increased so this has no effect on them and you have Vial to boot.
-Tangle Wire: 3 mana might be on the edge of playable, but if you do play it, the effect is brutal as you run quite a few artifacts which don't mind just being tapped (Cranial Plating, Ornithopter, any 0-drops, etc.)

I'd stick to artifacts to avoid weakening the core of the deck too much, that's the prime reason to play it in the first place. Disciple might actually be worth cutting as it's mostly a combo-card with Ravager and while it's totally nuts, this variant might be better off without it. UB or UBr are the natural colours since you'll want Thoughtcast and possibly even Somber Hoverguard in a build like this. It'd definitely require some serious rebuilding though.

[Xero]

Something like Fish is better at playing Aggro-Control. Affinity needs speed and consitancy. Meddling Mage is not an artifact and makes you splash an otherwise useless color (white). And even though Chalice is an artifact, setting it at 1 or 2 will oftentimes hurt you more than an opponent (except maybe against Combo).


While I don't know if it's going to result in anything playable (the prime strength of the deck is the fast kill that you'll basically have to give up for control elements), there're a few cards worthy of consideration:
-Sphere of Resistance: Affinity-cards are reduced in cost as much as they're increased so this has no effect on them and you have Vial to boot.
-Tangle Wire: 3 mana might be on the edge of playable, but if you do play it, the effect is brutal as you run quite a few artifacts which don't mind just being tapped (Cranial Plating, Ornithopter, any 0-drops, etc.)

Sphere is a good sideboard card against combo and a few other decks. I wouldn't play Tangle Wire though, becuase you usually want to tap things. It might be good if their were more control decks, however.


I am going to be the honest one here: Affinity sucks. It may have an excellent early game, but its mid game is iffy and it has no late game. If you really want to cover up that weakness you are at least running the correct colors (except I always prefer Black and Blue) I ran a build with 7 Counterspells (of varying types), 7 Draw Spells, 18 Lands, and a bunch of Affinity cards (including 2x Broodstar)

Affinity has put up better results than most decks. And you don't need to add couterspells and Broodstar to make it good.

[kicks_422]

If you really want an aggro/control artifact deck, try out Legacy 5/3. It stomps when it wins, though it completely falls apart when it loses. Big beaters in Juggernaut, Synod Centurion, Su-Chi, etc. backed up by Chalice, Trinisphere, Tangle Wire and Waste-lock looks good in paper, but like all Stax-inspired decks, is forced to topdeck mode in the lategame.

You might want to try that out instead.

[Iranon]

Shifting archetypes is never without sacrifices. If we lost nothing by including control tools, it would mean that nobody built Affinity correctly as of yet. I'm not arrogant enough to make that assertion. What I suggested isn't the next logical step, but an alternative with entirely different match-ups despite relying on the same concept.

@ kicks_422:

4 colours requires hardly any sacrifices. Blinkmoth Nexus hurts the fast starts everyone, me included, wishes to preserve. Darksteel Citadel is strictly better than a 4th coloured artifact land if you don't need the latter but I don't consider this to be a biggie either. Number of colours doesn't affect stability unless you run all 5, number of non-artifact cards in total does. Hence, the sarcasm was more than unnecessary.


I also never said I would run 4 colours in the final version; Atog was an example. In fact, both Atog and Disciple might not make it.
I gave a reason why a moderate amount of disruption is inadvisable - it's either a smidgeon or a solid package.

I am aware of 5/3. I think this deck would be more reliable when optimised.


@ Eldariel:

I also fear Disciple will need to go, despite its potential brokenness. Dedicated finishers are simply an iffy concept in aggro/control. Also, frustrating hands that are 1 card away from being awesome but do little as it is are depressingly common in Affinity anyway, and it will become worse if we weaken the artifact base.

While I'm not convinced about Sphere of Resistance (we are slowing ourselves down already), Tangle Wire would be interesting. It can definitely see this rock, but I think it would not work well together with the other disruption. In a version that includes tons of free artifacts and possibly Goblin Welders, however... argh, must not be distracted even further!

[kicks_422]

I didn't mean any offense. I was actually half-serious about the 5 color thing.

I could see a wedding between 5/3 and Affinity, though. Something like...

Affinity Cards:
Frogmite
Enforcer
Ravager
Thoughtcast

Control:
Chalice
Trinisphere (?? - counteracts with Affinity, but is such a strong card in the format... Maybe SB?)
Tangle Wire
Meddling Mage

Other Stuff:
Cranial Plating
SoFI/Jitte
Vial

Land:
Citadel
Tundra
Seat of the Synod
Ancient Den
Ancient Tomb

I also think an aggro-control route needs to drop Disciple. The above core looks very weak against Goblins though.

[Eldariel]

I just threw together this list:
// Lands
3 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [MR] Seat of the Synod
3 [MR] Great Furnace
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [MR] Glimmervoid
4 [MR] Vault of Whispers

// Creatures
4 [DS] Arcbound Worker
3 [MR] Myr Enforcer
3 [9E] Ornithopter
4 [MR] Frogmite
4 [DS] Arcbound Ravager

// Spells
4 [FD] Cranial Plating
4 [MR] Thoughtcast
4 [NE] Tangle Wire
4 [EX] Sphere of Resistance
4 [FD] Paradise Mantle

I originally planned to have some Needles in there so I played Mantles there instead of Aether Vials, but Vials obviously belong if we have no MD Needles, seeing that Vial allows us to basically ignore Sphere of Resistance for all intents and purposes (doesn't help casting Thoughtcast though, and I wouldn't want to play Chromatic Star here just for it). Anyhow, I played around with the list a bit and Tangle Wire seemed to be pretty broken here, since it generally doesn't force any taps from you and if there's one deck others can't afford to give Time Walks to, it's Affinity. Sphere of Resistance is pretty good too, the deck plays a high landcount and all Affinity-cards are unaffected, so you can operate pretty well with a Sphere in play. Wastelands and Ports make Sphere/Wire combo much more deadly, and less effective on you, but obviously cuts the number of arti lands.

Now, this list is totally crap (Worker should be 4-of, either Furnace or Vault should be Darksteel Citadel, really wants some more flyers in there and the aforementioned Vials, or Needles), but I think the idea we're looking for is there. It might never be better than real Affinity, but it's worth a shot as a list like this has a natural resilience to hate due to the control cards in the deck making it harder for the opponent to resolve hate, and the Sphere and Wire make combo MU winnable game 1.


Oh yea, Engineered Explosives could be promising in Affinity as you can use it for Affinity, set it generally at anything from 0 to 4 and use it to blow up tons o' stuff.

[Cait_Sith]

// Lands
4 [MR] Seat of the Synod
4 [DS] Darksteel Citadel
4 [MR] Vault of Whispers
4 [MR] Glimmervoid
2 [DS] Blinkmoth Nexus

// Creatures
4 [R] Ornithopter
4 [MR] Myr Enforcer
4 [MR] Frogmite
3 [FD] Qumulox
4 [DS] Arcbound Worker
4 [DS] Arcbound Ravager

// Spells
4 [MR] Thoughtcast
4 [FD] Cranial Plating
4 [MR] Override
3 [FD] Conjurer's Bauble
4 [EX] Sphere of Resistance

For those going QUMULOX! WTF IS THAT! I played it to avoid all the artifact hate (and now the Affinity hate like Hurkyll's Recall and Rebuild)

This is the list I used to use, with a slight modification for Legacy (Sphere of Resistance). I think my Sideboard would now include CotV, Hydroblast, Hymn to Tourach, Cabal Therapy, and some Thresh anti tech.

[Iranon]

@ Kicks_422: No problem at all... in fact, my response was a bit on the blunt side. If we all agreed on everything, I wouldn't make threads about new spins on existing concepts :)
Thanks for getting the ball rolling. Although this is a very different direction from what I had in mind, I'm intrigued.



@ Eldariel:

In your list, I think the weak link is Thoughtcast + Glimmervoid. Running non-utility non-artifact lands just for Thoughtcast seems too much of a sacrifice. Since artifact lands do double duty for the expensive stuff, you can probably get away with reducing your land count a little, leaving you with enough slots to fit in most of what is missing - solving most of the problems you complained about.
Incidentally, don't cut Vault, it's useful for Plating once in a bad moon.
The beauty of staying mono-brown would be that you can go bonkers on turn 2-3 very reliably, with a decent chance of locking the opponent down beyond hope for recovery at the same time.

[Vardaman]

The only reason to play Affinity is the explosive starts. I'd consider running 2x Needle main but that's about it.

[Cait_Sith]

The idea here is to exchange some of the explosiveness to cover up the frailty the deck has. Like no late game.

[aisman132000]

i feel like winter orb deserves at least a sb slot. pithing needle should be md cause it doesn't slow you down and can name deed which ruins you.

[Cait_Sith]

SB Winter Orb, nice.

[outsideangel]

I relly like Sphere of Resistance here. Affinity is really strong early game, and Sphere let's you drag out the early game longer. Plus it hoses combo, which is often a very bad matchup pre-board.

[Bane of the Living]

We've had alot of fucked up affinity threads here on the source, and I think this is one of the worse I've come across. You people are talking about cutting DotV... Thats not even rational. The only reason to play affinity at all is because its an aggro//combo archetype. The ability to win on turn 3 without the combat phase is the only reason to play the deck over goblins. The specific goblin hate isnt enough to stop that deck, nor is the hate for affinity. Ive won games through Nev's Disc, Serenity, Shattering Spree, Kataki, and Rebuild. You just need to develop a maindeck thats capable of staying together through a couple hate cards.

For me I found the answer in Dark Confidant. Dispite his fragility he's a definitive card for 2 mana, even in the legacy community. If he stays out he draws you into much more aggro than the opponent can hate out. You opponent needs to kill confidant and if they dont they lose, thats how it goes. In affinity your dropping a 2cc threat the opponent needs to kill aside from the brown beats already on the table. Confidant helps you get out of situations where you got a shattering spree in the face, or all your men got Wrathed/Damned the turn beforehand. He helps you dig and attacks for 2 in an aggro deck.

Black, imo has the best disruption card available. Cabal Therapy. The only time Duress is better is in a creature light deck. Affinity is anything short of creatures to flash this bitch back. Learn your meta, learn how to hit with therapy on the first try. This is detrimental to your success and will determine the outcome of several games.

Aside from therapy I play 2 maindecked Pithing Needle or Tormods Crypt depending on my meta at the moment. They are both cheap brown cards that are never dead when playing with rav and tog.

Talking about playing the deck without tog is unheard of. I would never play the deck with only 4 sac outlets and as already noted Never without DotV. This is especially true since Pithing Needle came about.

All in all, dont cut black. Its affinities main color. What color is dotv? What color requirements are on plating?

[Cait_Sith]

Hey, I forgot why I ran black originally. Thanks for reminding me of Disciple.

[Eldariel]

Black, imo has the best disruption card available. Cabal Therapy. The only time Duress is better is in a creature light deck. Affinity is anything short of creatures to flash this bitch back. Learn your meta, learn how to hit with therapy on the first try. This is detrimental to your success and will determine the outcome of several games.

That's really not an option, since if someone wants to take this deck out of town to a GP, or play in an online tournament or such, you just can't know the meta and your Therapies are about to whiff.

[Elfrago]

IMHO confidant is not that good with frogmite and myr enforcer.

[Vimes]

IMHO confidant is not that good with frogmite and myr enforcer.

Spoken like someone who has never played with Confidant. Ever. Myr Enforcer doesn't usually make the cut in those lists, and even so, Affinity is one of the fastest aggro decks in the format. It's not generally going to be your life total you're worried about, especially when you're drawing into twice as many threats as usual.

[Bane of the Living]

That's really not an option, since if someone wants to take this deck out of town to a GP, or play in an online tournament or such, you just can't know the meta and your Therapies are about to whiff.

Ill need to argue that.

If your going to a GP my hopes are high that you know enough about the general Legacy meta to name correctly with Therapy. If you see a mountain your playing against goblins, a blue fetchland thresh or solidarity depending on their first play or so. There arent too many rogue decks at a GP. I think last year I played against a belcher deck, thats was as close to rogue I saw. Salvagers was there too but once you know what your playing against you should be fine. This is why I keep therapy in the sideboard anyways.

Im pretty set as far as my local meta. I know what people run for techy cards such as Jitte or SoFI. I try to play therapy in a third of my decks since Im familiar with my store. Online is a whole different thing however. I wouldnt expect anyone to land therapy half as often against the janky decks on mws.

Confidant is easily run alongside Frogmite and Ive been experimenting with about 2 Enforcers. The chance of revealing one is pretty slim, Ill let you guys know how it goes.

[kicks_422]

I'm even trying out a Confidant build with 4 Frogmites and 4 Enforcers, along with 4 Jitte for lifegain if necessary and Serum Visions/Magma Jet. I have Sphere of Resistance and Cabal Therapy MD'd.

[BiscuitVader]

What about Broodstar Affinity, with FoW in the Maindeck?
Maybe even Remand or something?

[Eldariel]

I'm even trying out a Confidant build with 4 Frogmites and 4 Enforcers, along with 4 Jitte for lifegain if necessary and Serum Visions/Magma Jet. I have Sphere of Resistance and Cabal Therapy MD'd.

How the heck can you fit all that without hurting the actual functioning of the deck?

[Togit460]

How the heck can you fit all that without hurting the actual functioning of the deck? It seems to not be affinity anymore, that's how it fits...:wink:
I'm intrigued by the aggro-control concept with affinity, but I can't see too much fitting in without severely diluting the power and synergy within the deck. Cabal therapy seems like an unnecesary complication in a deck that already has plenty of sack outlets, but I'm not sure what disruption i'd run in it's place. Rest assured I would most likely never run serum visions, and magma jet.

[kicks_422]

I said I was trying it out, I never said it was great... :tongue: 4 each of Confidant, Serum Visions, Magma Jet, and Cabal Therapy are my only non-artifact cards in the deck though, still leaving 44 artifacts which I think is a high enough count.

[Iranon]

Cabal Therapy is sweet, but being a sac outlet has nothing to do with it - being able to sacrifice a single creature at sorcery speed is nothing to work with. To me, its main attractiveness stems from the fact that you have free creatures for flashback , and it works even better together with Urza's Bauble and Meddling Mage. Unfortunately, it's actually one of the more difficult disruption tools to fit in - not being able to vial it out made it actually more problematic than Meddling Mage from my experience.

[Eldariel]

I said I was trying it out, I never said it was great... :tongue: 4 each of Confidant, Serum Visions, Magma Jet, and Cabal Therapy are my only non-artifact cards in the deck though, still leaving 44 artifacts which I think is a high enough count.

Umm, if all your lands are artifacts, how do you ever plan to cast coloured spells?

[kicks_422]

4 each of the colors I use, 2 random artifact lands, 4 Citadel, 4 Petal and 4 Chromatic Star.

[Cait_Sith]

I don't like petal all that much to be honest, but I love Star.

[Bane of the Living]

Petal is terrible in the deck. You already have the natural ability to cheat costs with Vial and cards w/ Affinity. Lotus Petal isnt worth going down a card for the one mana boost. If you like the feel of 2 mana turn one try Chrom Mox. Altho it knocks you down 2 cards you actually keep it around, and if it helps get you double black its usually worth it since your powering up plating. I wouldnt play mox or petal unless playing Confidant however, you need him to make up for the card loss. He's one of the bigger reasons to get 2 mana turn one too.

[Clark Kant]

I actually think this idea could be made to work.

Basically, you would be running Stax or Welder MuD but using stuff with affinity for artifacts like the 4/4 for 7 with affinity.

I don't think it's worth it to just modify affinity though. You would have to start over from scratch. You need to be running cards like Smokestack, Crucible, Mishra's Factory perhaps Trinisphere etc. And it will take a lot of tuning before it becomes viable.