[Deck] The Return of Nether Void

[SpikeyMikey]

There was a time.

There was a time when Nether Void was a strong card, and Void the best black deck in T1, better that Sui, better than Pox. There was a time when Goblins couldn't go nuts, and a gross hand from red was first turn Mountain, Ruby, Pup, Pup. There was a time when Pernicious Deed was all you needed for board clearing, and a time where a few Mishra's could go all the way. This time ended a while ago, however, long enough ago that maybe some of you don't even remember it. Times have changed, but the Void is about to return.

Nether Void suffered from two problems. One, the mana base was delicate. Due to the large volume of colorless lands(Strip, Waste, Port, Mishra), and the lack of decent dual land knock-offs (most players ran Tainted Woods, which is no bueno if you've only got 1 swamp which gets Sinkholed or Stripped), running an acceptable number of green sources to have turn 3 Deed consistantly was difficult. The second problem was that Pernicious Deed rapidly ceased to be enough answer. Decks started popping up that could recover quickly from Deed, fast enough to keep Nether Void and Nantuko Shade from being a solid lock. The deck was finally done in with the release of Mirrodin. Stax was suddenly catapulted to the forefront of T1, Nether Void disappeared, and Vintage magic in general got really, really gay. Like Liberaci meets Elton John.

So here we are, looking at Legacy, most of the flavor of Vintage pre-buttsex, none of the crap of post-buttsex Vintage. Here we are, with more dual lands that don't tap for pain every turn or require you to have a swamp in play. Here we are, with a black WoG to back up Deed. Here we are, with a potentially viable black-based control deck. Here we are, reading my overly dramatic introduction to:

The Return of Nether Void

0cc(3)
3xChrome Mox

1cc(4)
4xSwords to Plowshares

2cc(11)
4xSinkhole
3xRegrowth
2xLiving Wish
2xDiabolic Edict

3cc(10)
4xPernicious Deed
4xVindicate
2xUndead Gladiator

4cc(8)
4xCondemnation
4xNether Void

Lands(25)
4xBloodstained Mire
4xBayou
4xScrubland
4xWasteland
4xMishra's Factory
3xRishadan Port
1xGodless Shrine
1xOvergrown Tomb

Sideboard
4xDuress
3xHymn to Tourach
2xNaturalize
1xViridian Zealot
1xMortivore
1xRishadan Port
1xWithered Wretch
1xBraids, Cabal Minion
1xGodless Shrine

Traditionally, Void ran Hypnotic Specters and Nantuko Shades, to serve both as blockers early game, and to apply pressure on control decks. Now, however, traditional counter-control is subpar, and more removal is needed to deal with aggressive decks like Goblins. Hippie and Shade are no longer worth running. They serve little purpose in stalling against aggressive decks, and control is rare enough that measures against it can be relegated to the board. With the addition of 4 more board clearing spells, Undead Gladiator becomes the creature of choice. It's cheap to return, and it's never dead, worst case scenario you can cycle it to find something more useful.

Also, Void traditionally stuck to B/G, to alleviate some of the mana problems caused by a mana base heavy with colorless mana producers. I chose to add white because despite the strain it puts on the mana, it allows the deck to have two very important options that I feel it needs to have, namely flexible removal in Vindicate and the best removal spell in the game in StP. The addition of Vindicate to the line-up gives the deck a heavier LD aspect, important in a format where discard is far less valuable than old T1.

The discard moved to the board mainly because the most common matchup you'll see at a tournament is Goblins, where Duress is dead unless you're on the play turn 1. Deed and Vindicate are enough to deal with Vial. Removal spells, like StP and Edict are far less likely to be dead than anti-control spells like Duress, Hymn, and Hypnotic Specter. There are of course, still people out there running Landstill, and creatureless decks like Solidarity still see play, so I haven't cut the discard entirely, just moved it to the sideboard.

One choice that I'm sure is going to receive a lot of flak is Living Wish. The Wishes are definitely a niche card in 1.5, but if the deck is working as intended, there isn't a matchup out there that needs much shoring up. Wish gives you options if the deck isn't working as intended, allowing you to grab a way to better control the tempo of the game(Port, Zealot, Braids, Wretch), or a more solid win condition(Mortivore, Braids). It allows greater flexibility at the cost of some speed, but Void is exceptionally good at slowing the pace of a game way down, and the loss of speed is not a huge thing.

Questions, Comments, Concerns?

[BeeblesofLife]

This decklist looks promising, but again you're a faceing an issue of not enough colored land. Sure the chrome moxes will help...a little....bu it think there is a better way to fix up the mana base....I really like this idea.

[Cait_Sith]

You do realize people who play Force of Will are rather upset with you now. Although I hope (and believe) this doesn't (won't) turn into anothet Trinisphere - FoW fiasco.

[Cavius The Great]

Nether Void decks are probably the most underplayed, potentially dangerous archetype in this format. I have been actually tested nether void for the past 6 years. I think your theories are correct and I agree with you that the fact that Nether Void decks have alot potential and are underplayed. I just think that the list you provided is subobtimal. I think your mind is right when it comes to the viability of nether void in the format, I just believe your list is quite rough and can be designed differently to make it more successful. There is so many things I have issues with in your deck but I don't have the time right now to discuss it. Let me just say that your manabase is shaky. You need to run more basics. shocklands are horrible in a format where you can play dual lands. Most of the time shocklands would be just as effective as basics and fetches. Just my two cents. I'll get back to you soon. :wink:

[Clark Kant]

When you said the return of nether void, I thought your topic is going to talk about the impact of Tomb of Yawgmoth on this deck.

How did you overlook that card. :eek: It greatly enhances your ability to get BB for Sinkhole even with lots of Wastelands and Mishra's Factories.

Also, is there any chance at all a couple of Ancient Tombs/City of Traitors can be squeezed in to accelerate out Void?

Why not crucible of worlds? Perhaps even Trinisphere or Chalice.

Other than that, the list looks solid and certainly has tons of potential.

P.S. The most popular, powerful, fastest and most broken deck in Legacy gets around Void easily thanks to Aether Vial and Goblin Lackey. You might want to think about finding a way to compensate for that.

[Cavius The Great]

P.S. The most popular, powerful, fastest and most broken deck in Legacy gets around Void easily thanks to Aether Vial and Goblin Lackey. You might want to think about finding a way to compensate for that.

I personally run Aether Vial in my Nether Void deck to get around it's effect, it's pretty nasty. I'm testing a U/B Nether Void deck and I'm running Hurkyll's Recall in the SB for opposing Aether Vials. I also have BEB's to combat Lackeys.

[MattH]

Is "Condemnation" supposed to be "Damnation"?

[Onslaught]

Nether Void is my favorite non-creature card of all time, but it just doesn't cut it in aggro-heavy Legacy. Trinisphere is infinitely better than it for the format, but even it isn't very good sometimes.

I find it interesting that the price of Nether Void has never gone down (and has maybe even gone up a little) despite its transition from a rare/powerful T1 card to a novelty collector's item.

[sammiel]

UBW landstill with nether void maybe? I've tried testing a straight UB list, and without decree, you have to run conclaves, which suck as wind conditions.

[Kevdog]

Long time no see. Deck seems to be begging for a Boseiju ;) Other option could be to include suspenders (Giant Dustwasp, Durkwood Baloth, Ivory Giant, Duskrider Peregrine) as you only have to pay 3 when they resolve.

[Cavius The Great]

Nether Void is my favorite non-creature card of all time, but it just doesn't cut it in aggro-heavy Legacy. Trinisphere is infinitely better than it for the format, but even it isn't very good sometimes.

I find it interesting that the price of Nether Void has never gone down (and has maybe even gone up a little) despite its transition from a rare/powerful T1 card to a novelty collector's item.

I disagree. I think that Nether Void is an excellent card. It's just that no one has bothered to break it yet in the format.

[Onslaught]

I disagree. I think that Nether Void is an excellent card. It's just that no one has bothered to break it yet in the format.

Explain to me what Legacy metagame you play in where a 3B enchantment that adds 3 to the cost of a spell is better than a (3) artifact that makes every spell cost three mana or more.

This is ignoring the fact that it would be hard to even get to the point where you could resolve a Nether Void and have it be relevant.

I love the card, it is an amazing effect with great art - but its not going to work in an aggro format with super fast beats, free counters, and undercosted disruption any time soon.

[Cavius The Great]

Explain to me what Legacy metagame you play in where a 3B enchantment that adds 3 to the cost of a spell is better than a (3) artifact that makes every spell cost three mana or more.

It makes every spell cost 3, period. No more no less. Once you reach your third land, decks will start to be able to cast spells. It takes decks 4 turns to cast a 1 mana spell with a Nether Void in play, 5 turns to cast a 2 mana spell and 6 turns to cast a 3 mana spell. Do the math, it only takes 3 turns for your opponent to start playing spells of off a first turn Trinisphere. That's any spell regardless of the mana cost. A first turn Nether Void is much more devastating allowing you to maintain the lock for a longer period of time.


This is ignoring the fact that it would be hard to even get to the point where you could resolve a Nether Void and have it be relevant.
This is a format where you have Dark Ritual, Chrome Mox, Mox Diamond and Lotus Petal all unrestricted. A first turn Nether Void is very easy to do in this format. A first turn Aether Vial/creature followed by a second turn Nether Void via Dark Ritual is a very common play.

Nether Void has always been viable. Just because people stopped playing it doesn't mean it's a bad card. It's an amazing card with alot of potential. A B/G Nether Void deck with Pernicious Deed, Sinkholes, Hymns, Duresses, Hyppies, Nantuko Shades, Wastelands and Manlands could easily rule this format. It's just a matter of time before people start to realize that.

More than a few times, I've witnessed you jump to flaming for no reason. last time, you recieved a warning. This time, it's an infraction. ~ Nightmare

[greyareabeyond]

Explain to me what Legacy metagame you play in where a 3B enchantment that adds 3 to the cost of a spell is better than a (3) artifact that makes every spell cost three mana or more.

Wow, you know nothing, don't you?

It makes every spell cost 3, period. No more no less. You obviously don't know what your talking about.

Trinispere does not reduce the cost of spells that cost more than 3. In other words, with a Trinisphere in play, all spells cost three mana or more. Which is what Onslaught clearly meant in his post.

You don't have to put the pedal to the metal and accelerate right up to flame speed at every opportunity.

[syssc9]

Back during the Ice Age - Mirage era I ran a Green/Black LD deck that used Nether Void as the Lock piece and Black Vise as the Kill Condition. Crowd Control was via Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale and Drop of Honey. I am intrigued by this thread and have wondered why Nether Void sees so little play in legacy, but have done nothing to rectify the situation myself. Count me in as we work on a tier-viable Legacy Nether Void Deck.

In my old (Ancient!) LD deck I found the then available forms of mana acceleration to be dead cards once the NV was in play. Dark Ritual and even Black Lotus became a liability in conjunction with NV. While I realize the idea is to use the acel to put NV in play, this did not alter the fact that all remaining such cards in the deck became instantly useless. I therefore steered away from them and just cast my land and creature hate till I could lock things up and drop a vise. My testing at that time indicated the only viable acel seemed to be the on-color Moxen (Emerald & Jet) and Sol Ring.

We no longer have vise (or Moxen or Strip Mine or even my old friend Sol Ring) so lots of other avenues need to be explored. I am interested in any form of acel that will still work post NV. Vise could be replaced by Ebony Owl Netsuke or perhaps even Iron Maiden. Tabernacle is great creature hate if your are running LD, but may not do as well in another deck. Still, with the availability of the new Magus cards, and a functional equivalent of Drop of Honey (the name escapes me at the moment) my interest is peaked. I was not using manlands then, and wonder why in retrospect. Vial is another interesting possibility, perhaps for use with creatures that also destroy lands.

One thing is for sure, we will need lots of Artifact/Enchantment hate if we stay LD.

[Cavius The Great]

@syssc9 - I'm happy to see your interest in Nether Void (I wish we all could agree).

I'm actually testing a U/B Nether Void deck with Cloud of Faeries and Aether Vials. There's nothing like two second turn Cloud of Faeries followed by a Nether Void via Ritual. So far the deck has been fun but I haven't tested it against anything yet. I'll keep you posted when I do. I also might post the decklist if you wish me to, it's pretty good. Glad to see some optimistic people in this forum, it truly is a rare trait to have, apparently. :wink:

[syssc9]

Thanks, Cavius. The nay-sayers don't usually bother me. I just use their input and proceed.

As I look over the thread this morning after a nights reflection, I see my quandary over mana acceleration was neatly solved above. Looks like some combination of City of Traitors, Ancient Tomb and perhaps even Exploration may hold the answer. Deed also seems like an auto include, but it is very anti-synergistic with Exploration and even Nether Void itself. Hmmm...

Either Crucible or Life from the Loam look promising. I am leaning toward Loam for no other reason than its cc of 2 rather than 3. Low casting cost stuff is always preferred (can I be any more obvious?) in an NV based deck.

Some other choices might include Tree-Top Village, Innocent Blood (love this card!) and Naturalize. That's the extent of my thoughts for now. Sorry if I am diverging too far from Spikey Mikey's original intent.

[Cavius The Great]

Thanks, Cavius. The nay-sayers don't usually bother me. I just use their input and proceed.

As I look over the thread this morning after a nights reflection, I see my quandary over mana acceleration was neatly solved above. Looks like some combination of City of Traitors, Ancient Tomb and perhaps even Exploration may hold the answer. Deed also seems like an auto include, but it is very anti-synergistic with Exploration and even Nether Void itself. Hmmm...

Either Crucible or Life from the Loam look promising. I am leaning toward Loam for no other reason than its cc of 2 rather than 3. Low casting cost stuff is always preferred (can I be any more obvious?) in an NV based deck.

Some other choices might include Tree-Top Village, Innocent Blood (love this card!) and Naturalize. That's the extent of my thoughts for now. Sorry if I am diverging too far from Spikey Mikey's original intent.

Wow, you nailed every single card on the dot. Every single card that you mentioned I have already considered to include in different builds of Nether Void. It's like you read my mind. :wink:

I'm sure you have already considered this, but splashing black in 43-land.DEC might be very interesting. Almost every single card in the deck would be unaffected by Nether Void and the large amount of manlands makes this idea very synergistic. What do you guys think of that idea? Pretty enticing, eh?

[scrumdogg]

The best accelerators that don't suck post-NV are lands....which leads to Manabond & Exploration & LftL anyway. G/B also gives you elements to clear anything that escaped onto the board before you lock it up. Using the 43land shell makes a lot of sense & this route may very well provide the ability to handle combo that deck lacked before, if you can resolve the anti-synergy between Manabond & Nether Void. This also avoids the problem of Lotus Petal, Ritual, et al not only sucking post-NV but leaving you with an empty hand & little-to-no mana on the table when (if....in a format with counters...) you cast NV.

[syssc9]

@ Cavius and scrumdogg

43 land shell - sheer brilliance! I was wondering how to squeeze in some Maze of Ith, etc. I know what I will be working on this weekend. As an anti-climactic note, It dawned on me that including Wild Mongrel might be the answer to a Nether Void deck full of accelerators. Just pitch the now useless cards to the Puppy and smash away!

[Simaton]

Hello everyone. I just found this site thanks to wikipedia; I'm an avid Legacy player since Revised. I've always believed Nether Void to be a power bomb waiting to be dropped if I could just get the right deck.

Anyway, a while back I realized: Nether Void doesn't force a raise in cost, it just counters spells if you don't pay. So uncounterable spells are immune. Now if I could just find some that are strong enough to go in.

[SpikeyMikey]

Some other choices might include Tree-Top Village, Innocent Blood (love this card!) and Naturalize. That's the extent of my thoughts for now. Sorry if I am diverging too far from Spikey Mikey's original intent.

My original intent was mostly to get a discussion started about Nether Void. The decklist I posted does, as has been pointed out, have consistancy problems. Mulling to mana problems is more frequent with this deck than it is with most decks.

I didn't really see that as a problem, however, because with 4 Deeds and 4 Damnations, the board clearing is solid, and it's got enough single target removal that it can handle the really dangerous things well. What I'm trying to say is that the mana is weaker than your average legacy deck, but the spells are stronger. A weak mana base is not always unacceptable for a deck, look at most of the T1 style combo decks out there like Belcher or TPS.

Honestly, however, I don't care if people play my version or some version they come up with on their own, I was just sitting around thinking about old concepts that could be necro'd, and I thought about Void. I had just seen the spoiler for Damnation, and thought that it might be enough to put black control back on the map.

I'm not sure I like Tomb of Yawgmoth. If it tapped for mana, it'd be a definite inclusion, since Wastelands have gone the way of the Dodo. As is, however, it'd be an additional few land slots, since I can't replace duals with them, and they don't actually do anything, i.e. they just slow your curve, which is important since your business spells are all 3+. I can't see running any Void deck which doesn't have at *least* Factory and either Waste or Port, to be honest, I'd have liked to have the 4th Port mained in my build, and be running 4 Blinkmoth Nexus as well, there just isn't room for that much colorless.

LftL is a wonderful idea, and I have to be honest, the only reason I didn't run it is that I didn't think of it. I don't get to do much actual playing any more, just a few games here and there on MWS and some games with my roomate, so occasionally I miss things that should've been obvious.

[SpikeyMikey]

Hello everyone. I just found this site thanks to wikipedia; I'm an avid Legacy player since Revised. I've always believed Nether Void to be a power bomb waiting to be dropped if I could just get the right deck.

Anyway, a while back I realized: Nether Void doesn't force a raise in cost, it just counters spells if you don't pay. So uncounterable spells are immune. Now if I could just find some that are strong enough to go in.

Tried it when Invasions came out. Blurred Mongoose, Urza's Rage, and Multani's Presence in the board. 'Course, that was T1, but it was a miserable flop, didn't make it out of the first dozen games of testing, and it was mostly because the deck just wasn't solid enough.

[jebus]

I'm not sure I like Tomb of Yawgmoth. If it tapped for mana, it'd be a definite inclusion, since Wastelands have gone the way of the Dodo. As is, however, it'd be an additional few land slots, since I can't replace duals with them, and they don't actually do anything, i.e. they just slow your curve

Tomb of Yawgmoth makes itself a Swamp as well, so it taps for B. AND it makes your Ports, Wastes, and Factories also tap for B.

As for the 43 land-nether void hybrid... now THAT's interesting. I'll start testing it out as well.

[SpikeyMikey]

Excellent point. Like I said, I've been out of things for a while, haven't paid a great deal of attention to new cards. That'd definitely be worth trying out.