W/R/g fish, bending the rules on control

[aznfoodgood]

Fish, a very powerful control deck that exists as one of the top competitors in almost all formats. Originally it was created as a U/X deck, were x could be black, red or white. Using a strong array of counters and spot removal, this deck as been in the top tier for top 8 tournaments numerous amounts of times.

The idea behind the new colors, W/R/g means this deck will drop the extreme slowness of blue. Why is blue so slow? Because most times, its first “drop” of feasible play is made with a brainstorm or a serum visions. Instead of doing something proactive that affects either the board or your opponent, you attempt to gain “card quality advantage.” That’s not to say that card quality advantage is a bad thing, but to me, there are many more things that you can do. Instead of playing a can trip, you could A) bolt a lackey, witch is really really good mind you B) lay down a mother of runes, another sold turn 1 play as most time she takes away the spot removal your opponent is playing C) use a very cheap and lame counter to either stop your opponent turn 1 drop or turn 2 drop IE use mana tithe< more on this card later… Take that back, you can stifle some thing, the tempo is great and that card is cool, but personally, id rather have a bolt or a swards over it

Having said that, hear is the deck list and I hope that I can explain why I neglected to put blue in the deck.

Lands 18
4 Windswept heath
4 Wooded foothills
4 Plateau
1 Taiga
1 Savannah
2 Plains
2 Mountain

Creatures 17
4 Mother of Ruins
4 Silver knights
3 Joten Grunts
4 Serra avengers
2 Tividar of thorn

Finisher 3
3 Umezawa’s Jitte

Control 22
4 Bolt
4 Pyroclasm
3 Chain lighting
4 Mana tithe < I will completely explain this card later
4 Magma jet
3 Pillage

Side board
4 Pyrostatic pillar
4 Price of progress
4 Krosan Grip
3 Armadillo cloak

card explanations

Lands: there necessary to every magic deck, having splashes of green with in them means that we have access to the most powerful disenchant, Krosan Grip as well as Armadillo clock witch will equalize the mid and late game agro match ups. The large amounts of fetch lands means that Grunt will stay happy even when you don’t play against a deck that manipulates the graveyard.

Creatures
4 Mother of runes, wow is this card impressive, every card now has protection from all of the cards you will face. Defensively, its an impervious wall against Pile Drivers, Nimble Mongese, Troll Ascetics and Nantuko shades. It also protects the MVPs of the deck, Serra Avenger and Joten Grunt

4 Silver knight, when you play in an environment with large amounts of agro, silver knight becomes your best friend. The only card he’s vulnerable to is swords to plowshares and honestly, I am quite alright with that.

3 Joten Grunts, his favor has grown from the very moment I heard about him. A absolute house against almost every deck out there, he kicks ass and takes names. Breaking down threshold and being a solid 4/4 body for at least 2-3 turns.

4 Serra Avengers, quite possibly my favorite card. Vigilance is extremely impressive. And wit jitte, its completely gross. It seems to find away into almost every fish deck out there and it has evasion so it works around everything but exalted angel witch is a BIG problem

3 Jitte, fits in most decks with creatures. any one who plays with this card knows exactly how unfair it is. It almost explains itself. Many times, the creature that gets equipped by jitte gets tagged with removal, that’s where Mother of Runes helps.

Control aspect
4 Bolt: come on, your playing red? Your playing bolt, 3 dmg for 1 mana at instant speed. It’s the best out there, and its in our deck

3 Chain lightning, Bolts closely related cousin. The fact that its not an instant is slightly bothersome, but shock is just… so bad? Id rather have 1 extra point of damage

4 magma jet, basically its our brainstorm. It kills creatures, it kills opponents, it thins out the draws. All around, an excellent card. I would play more if I could

3 pillage, have any of you guys ever played against rock? Or life? Or even Land still? Those decks still exist and when we plan against them, we’ll be ready. Pillage hits many important cards that are commonly overlooked. Cards like trinisphear, smoke stack, tangle wire, jitte, and sword of fire and ice all must be dealt with as quickly as possible.

4 Mana Tithe, why is this card so good? Its not, but one of the great advantages that Mana tithe holds over every single magic player out there is advantage of surprise. One of the greatest advantages in magic is knowing exactly what is in your opponents deck. By knowing if your opponent has a mass removal spell means you can play so that that card has little effect on the game. If on the other hand, you played like a complete beginner and over extended into oblivion, your opponent would be grinning as he plopped down that incredible wrath or flame break that would completely wreck you. Wile Mana Tithe is a terrible top deck the same can be said for cards like duress, cabal therapy or hymn. How ever, by running magma jet, this problem can be avoided. Once again, the aspect of surprise catches many players off balanced and having that one key card can mean the difference between winning and loosing.

4 pyroclasm, solid board removal that doesn’t hurt any of your own guys. Hits goblins right in the balls as well as unthreshed dudes. This card is mostly seen in sideboards but I believe that in this situation it is necessary to have non-targeted removal.

Side board
4 pyrostatic pillar, its strong against many different decks in many different ways. Storm combo, Meat hooks, and even threshold

4 price of progress, many of the new decks, including this one are 3 color. Wasteland is one way of hurting them. So is dealing them 6-10 damage with one single card. Believe me, this card is VERY strong

4 Krosan Grip, gets around counters, its survival as well as counter balance. It does everything…

3 Armadillo cloak, the equalizer against midrange agro. It turns out that cards like Loxadon hierarch and exalted angel give this deck a major problem. That’s when the cloaks come in. Jitte is late some times, so cloak is a supplement.

Stuff I didn’t include
Swords to plowshares, alright ill be honest, I don’t like this card very much. I think that bolt is superior because it can go to the dome and finish games. Swards takes town more tougher opponents like finishers, but then, that’s why we SB cloaks

Lightning helix, yes this card is very good, how good? So good that all boros builds have them as a 4 of, but not hear. We need cheap and effective burn, it must either A) cost 1 mana, or B) smooth out our draw. And because helix is neither of those, I regret to play it.

Awesome various 1 drop guys, aka isamaru, savannah lions, mogg fanatic, grim lavamancer, I really like playing with these dudes but they all die to pyroclasm. Kurd ape is a maybe but I think mom is better

Now its time for the match ups

Goblins, 65/35. this deck is geared towards beating them. I hate goblins; I don’t know any one who likes to play with them. Clasm, silver knight, tividar? I say GG no RE if u know what I mean. Post board, watch out for anarchy, but every one knows that… this can easily be avoided by holding back solid beaters. After all, you have a wrath as well, but yours only cost 2 mana.

Threshold 60/40. Grunt is the main card needed. He becomes the MVP. Also don’t hesitate to clasm away a pre threshed goose. Although silver knight, tividar and avenger are outclassed by bear and enforcer, the burn will make up for that. Post board, bring in price of progress and watch them cry

Solidarity: YUK 30/70, when you sit down and play them, just ask them if they brought there lubricant, because all they do is play with themselves. Post board you have…. Pyrostatic pillar which must me maligned aggressively for. This deck isn’t even fun to play with. Storm combo sucks.

Dead guy 55/45: he has good spot removal and land destruction, and hand destruction but you have better, you have pyroclasmn and it hits hit square between the balls. Silver knight is a solid card hear as well as avenger if you can cast it. The low curve means that, hopefully, you’ll be able to throw out some beaters to take on his guys. Post board? Bring in the cloaks and go down town, just wreck him with 4/4 first strike, trample, spirit linked guys

In conclusion I believe that this deck as solid matches against the majority of the metta. Te only weakness I see is the lack of storm combo hate, but then again, how many storm combo decks do you see at your local 40 man tourney? I see 1 or 2.

Some questions
Am I wasting my time?
Does blue really belong in this deck?
Mana tithe? Hot or not?
Mana base? Hot or not?
I would love any constructive criticism

[Tacosnape]

Looks decent enough. But I have to raise an eyebrow at the green splash just for Krosan Grip and Armadillo Cloak.

If you want to deal with artifacts and enchantments, Disenchant or Aura of Silence might do just fine. Jitte would give you lifegain in place of Armadillo Cloak, and if you want your guys to be bigger than your opponent's, you still have plenty of options, ranging from SOFI to Squee's Embrace to just simply running STP or Reprisal.

You should also look into running Sulfur Elemental. Solid tech.

[aznfoodgood]

Really what makes grip so devastating is its inevitability. While many different enchantment removal spells can get countered, grip cant. As for the creature pump, I do like squees embrace and even stp in the SB. Any thoughts to rancor?

Btw sulfur elemental seems to be interesting, making my first strikers 3/1s would be amazing =D on the other hand, it would kill mom unless I took them out

[kicks_422]

There's no need for Green. What enchantments are you scared of anyway?...

Also, if you're using Mana Tithe for tempo and its surprise factor, 4 cards that are doing it isn't enough. If you want to keep it, I suggest add more LD along with Pillage to make those Mana Tithes matter.

[aznfoodgood]

An interesting idea kicks, but I am little hesitant to remove any other cards for more LD. One important thing to note is that thresh plays with daze as a surprise factor and they don’t play any LD at all. As for removing green? I’m considering it, I just don’t like getting countered or to have sub optimal pump spells. But it will make waste land hurt less as well as price of progress

[kicks_422]

Yes, but Thresh plays FoW and Counterspell to complement Daze, and Daze is free, so they can drop their Thresh'd creatures and still have an opportunity to cast Daze. Mana Tithe however, is a lot different - why doesn't Thresh play with Force Spike?

Mana Tithe wouldn't matter if they always had the mana to pay for it, correct? Sure, it would get them the first time, but after that, the remaining 3 copies would be useless as they know that they're in your deck. If you had the luxury of 3/3 untargetables and 4/4 beaters, then they'd be hard-pressed to cast spells even though they know you can Mana Tithe them. This deck could apply pressure with the creatures you have (good choices, BTW), but if they were complemented with LD (e.g. 4 Pillage and 4 Molten Rain), then Mana Tithe would matter a lot.

[aznfoodgood]

NICE, I think that I will have to test that, although it would increase the curve a slight amount. Im currently thinking about dropping 3 chain lightning for either cryoclasm< ahahah, it could work, or molten rain, testing will be a must hopefuly, we can use magma jet to its fullest extent!!

[C-Aleric]

I think you could seriously benefit from trying to drop green for black in this deck. If you're looking for 3 colors, I'd go for black as your third. For this opens up a fish bomb: Dark Confidant. Maybe this list could be geared to abuse Vial as well. Leaving land open for board control/direct burn. Speed and control would help out lots. If you could squeeze in vial, it may even be worth stepping Chain Lightning up to Lightning Helix.

-4 Mana Tithe
-3 Chain Lightning
-2 Tividar of Thorn
-3 Pillage
-1 Umezawa's Jitte

+4 Aether Vial
+4 Dark Confidant
+3 Lightning Helix
+2 Mask of Memory

I'd move Tividar to the board. Grips become Disenchant/Seal of Cleansing, depending on your meta, I suppose. Seals may be better in this build. To drop early if you want to scare your opponent. Mask of Memory just to give a little more draw. With Mother of Runes, you'll be able to make use of this. Card Quality mid game will be key with this build.

The mana base needs some changes if the slash changes as well. I strongly advocate at least one of each basic land in the MD. Just incase. So, the changes I'd make:

-4 Wooded Foothills
-4 Windswept Heath

+4 Bloodstained Mire
+3 Flooded Strand
+1 Polluted Delta

This way, the Strands can act as a bluff for having blue in your deck, especially if you just fetch a Plains with it. They'll have it on their mind. The delta is there just to give you another way to get one of your off lands.

Well. Since I've changed the deck dramatically without really testing anything. And all this is just stuff off the top of my head, I'll stop.

[Aggro_zombies]

You should also look into running Sulfur Elemental. Solid tech.
It also has savage synergy with Mother of Runes.

As for your deck, I think there are a few ways you can go with it. One is to do as kicks suggested and add more LD for a more disruptive start. Fish is built around tempo, and getting LD going early is a great tempo boost, especially against decks that are light on lands or are very mana-intensive. One problem with this route would storm decks that aren't Solidarity, as most of those use LED or artifact mana instead of lots of lands to go off. Rule of Law, Abeyance, or maybe Orim's Chant would all be useful in the sideboard against combo decks in general, and especially against non-Solidarity decks, where you can just run them over if they can't find bounce quickly.

A second route would be to add more disruptive or efficient creatures. I could see running Goblin Legionnaire here - sure, it dies to Pyroclasm, but it's also a Shock to your opponent's face when it dies. A build like this, which would probably be more of a Boros Deck Wins, would want to cut the Mana Tithes entirely for more guys or burn. Frankly, Mana Tithe is really not that great here, despite what you may think. Even with LD, you're going to have to leave mana open, and in an aggressive deck that also packs burn, this isn't very good for you. Outside of the early game, this card becomes increasingly unimpressive, and in the early game, you want to be dropping men at warp speed to get your beats on. I don't know, it just doesn't seem that great here. Too bad they didn't make a white Memory Lapse, that would have been awesome.

EDIT: Oh yeah, one other thing. As long as you're considering running green, why not run Concordant Crossroads or Fires of Yavimaya? Guys are great, but hasty guys are better. The only problem is these cards are in your splash color and so will force you to slow down to get them in play.

C-Aleric has a good idea there with the black splash. I've seen WRB aggro decks before and they tend to do very well, although they have a bit of a rough time dealing with Wasteland and Rishadan Port out of Goblins. If you go to two colors, both of those would be good additions here (the Ports and Wastes, that is) as tempo boosters.

[laststepdown]

I think this deck really, really hates Smallpox.

[xsockmonkeyx]

EDIT: Oh yeah, one other thing. As long as you're considering running green, why not run Concordant Crossroads or Fires of Yavimaya? Guys are great, but hasty guys are better. The only problem is these cards are in your splash color and so will force you to slow down to get them in play.


There is a red Concordant Crossroads: Mass Hysteria. It was planeshifted in Mirrodin, way before it was a cool thing to do.

[Aggro_zombies]

There is a red Concordant Crossroads: Mass Hysteria. It was planeshifted in Mirrodin, way before it was a cool thing to do.
Ah, yeah. I knew there was one but I couldn't remember the name. Thanks for pointing that out.

[The Lotus Eater]

Like most people in this thread, I feel that the green splash isn't needed.

Krosan Grip ---> Disenchant
Armadillo Cloak ---> Exalted Angel

Once you knock green out, you pretty much have an Angel Stompy deck with a red splash. In which case, Lightning Helix is almost an auto-include.

With all of the burn you have in the main deck already, is 4x Pyroclasm MD really needed? Seems like you can fit a few more useful spells in place of a couple of pyroclasm. Pyroclasm can potentially be a dead card in a few matchups where as Sword of Fire and Ice can provide more protection for your guys, card draw, possibly a faster clock, and has the potential to ping off little guys (just like pyroclasm).

-2 Pyroclasm
+2 Sword of Fire and Ice

[aisman132000]

Just to pile on everybodies thoughts here i agree that the green splash doesn't make much sense. If your going to splash green at least play kird ape as it also survives your own pyroclasms. I feel that kird ape would more than justify touching a third color. If not kird ape why not soltary priest as it will give you more evasion, survives pyroclasm, and picks up jitte like a champ. As far as mana tithe goes i'm pretty meh on it. It's cute no doubt i'm just not sure how effective it will be. Will countering one of your opponents early plays really be worth it when you draw another late game? Thresh and other blue based aggro control decks can cantrip out of late game daze draws or at least pitch daze to fow. Mana tithe seems like it will just be a dead card unless it's in your oppening grip. How about more LD? wasteland perhaps? you probably could split that slot between another chain lightning and pillage and running an additional two board sweeps in the form of rough/tumble or something like that. After all your guys will survive anyway.

[Bane of the Living]

Stuff I didn’t include
Swords to plowshares, alright ill be honest, I don’t like this card very much. I think that bolt is superior because it can go to the dome and finish games. Swards takes town more tougher opponents like finishers, but then, that’s why we SB cloaks


This is a huge debate that I refuse to realyl get into but I see putting a creature into the opponents yard instead of rfg letting JOTUN grunt live one more turn. That one card can always make the difference.



Lightning helix, yes this card is very good, how good? So good that all boros builds have them as a 4 of, but not hear. We need cheap and effective burn, it must either A) cost 1 mana, or B) smooth out our draw. And because helix is neither of those, I regret to play it.

Threshold 60/40. Grunt is the main card needed. He becomes the MVP. Also don’t hesitate to clasm away a pre threshed goose. Although silver knight, tividar and avenger are outclassed by bear and enforcer, the burn will make up for that. Post board, bring in price of progress and watch them cry


The burn your talking about is just your bolts and jets. Since you cant bolt a mongoose your talking about maybe trading 2 for one or using first strike to go 1 for 1 on werebear. If you need to rely on this more you may need more instant speed burn. Take chain out. Seriously. Play helix or sudden shock. Sudden Shock is a house! I mopped the floor with people this weekend playing boros w/ SS.





Some questions
Am I wasting my time?
Does blue really belong in this deck?
Mana tithe? Hot or not?
Mana base? Hot or not?
I would love any constructive criticism

Arent we all?
NO!
HOT! But consider more mana denial to further the strategy. Where is Port, where is Wasteland? Could you fit these in the deck? Did you see if the manabase could support them? Wasteland is more grunt synergy and it makes Mana Tithe more painfull. Another option is Crack the Earth//Raze w/ Flagstones or hell, even without it.
I dont know about your manabase because I havent touched the deck but 18 seems a bit low. Especially since you want to hit 4 mana sometimes for Jitte, and because you'll thin so many out with fetches that you cant naturally draw into them when needed. You didnt really explain the need for grip. Does your meta have alot of blue based enchantment/artifact control elements? Would Seal of Cleansing or something else work out for you? These are the changes I suggest...

+2 Wasteland
+2 Sudden Shock
-3 Chain Lightning
-1 Clasm

You need instant speed burn. Infact you need split second burn. You can drop a clasm because it sucks agaisnt combo and thats your bad matchup. I know you dont have many colored mana requirements but you have enough to use 2 wastelands and theyre normally gonna be stone rains for you anyways.

[aznfoodgood]

Wow, thanks guys, this has really been productive for advancing this deck to another level. So far, this is what I have seen. Green is a no unless I bring in kird ape, witch actually doesn’t seem like a bad idea. If I do keep green, any suggestions on what creatures or MD spells to remove? Remember, this is a control deck… that looses to combo. Based on what other people have said, hears a new and improved deck list

Lands 19
4 plateau
4 windswept heath
4 wooded foothills
2 plains
2 mountains
3 wasteland

Control aspects 21
4 Lightning bolt
4 Magma Jet
3 Pyroclasm
3 Pillage
3 Molten Rain
4 Mana tithe

Creatures 17
4 Mother of Runes
4 silver knight
3 Joten grunt
4 Serra avengers
2 tividar of thorn

Jitte… well there are 3 of those
3 Jitte

this is one idea, taking the side of heavier LD as well as Mana tithe, witch comes out of the blue like a train and absolutely wrecks people

The other deck list is…

Lands
4 plateau
4 windswept heath
4 wooded foothills
2 plains
2 mountains
4 wasteland

control
4 Bolt
2 chain lightning
4 magma jet
4 lightning helix
4 pillage
2 molten rain

creatures
Creatures
4 Mother of Runes
4 silver knight
3 Joten grunt
4 Serra avengers
2 tividar of thorn

finisher
3 jitte

a couple notes, I removed green completely from both decks and so far, the first deck is playing fairly well, but with some small problems do to color screw. I didn’t really change the creature base because the only one that suggested changes was Aisman (which a appreciate) but as of now, the only card I would consider playing is soltari priest, but then its sounding more like boros deck, which this deck is not… I haven’t worked on a sb but, where im from, there are next to 0 combo players, remember, 0 combo players… I guess that doesn’t mean that rule of law shouldn’t go in the SB…


please post your thoughts on the new deck update

[aisman132000]

I really think you should go to 22 lands (4 of which being wasteland) right now i just don't think you have enough considering you want to be able to play stuff and burn shit. other "true" fish decks can get away with playing less because they play daze and fow which are free.

[aznfoodgood]

Ill think about it, right now im testing the first deck above. Its very hard to make a deck with 22 lands when in reality, it wants to have less, 18-19 would be ideal. Because this deck has only 1 can trip in the form of magma jet, and an incredibly low mana curve, although the curve just increased to do the land destruction put in. if it seems that there is not enough mana to power the deck, then changes will be made, but for now, it doesn’t seam like there is much room for more lands. When there becomes an increasing amount of mana draw from the deck, fish loses its mid game creature advantage, which often enough, gets pitted against most decks early creatures. the ability to draw nothing but business spells later on becomes imparities to the decks survival. If you disagree, I would encourage you to make a deck list, test it, and post it. More information would only help the decks development. Thanks

[aisman132000]

i'm just saying right now your only playing 16 colored sources, and you play 20 cards that are either double red or double white or red/white. it seems like the mana would be hard, i mean how are you not getting color screwed?

[Volt]

Ill think about it, right now im testing the first deck above. Its very hard to make a deck with 22 lands when in reality, it wants to have less, 18-19 would be ideal. Because this deck has only 1 can trip in the form of magma jet, and an incredibly low mana curve, although the curve just increased to do the land destruction put in. if it seems that there is not enough mana to power the deck, then changes will be made, but for now, it doesn’t seam like there is much room for more lands. When there becomes an increasing amount of mana draw from the deck, fish loses its mid game creature advantage, which often enough, gets pitted against most decks early creatures. the ability to draw nothing but business spells later on becomes imparities to the decks survival. If you disagree, I would encourage you to make a deck list, test it, and post it. More information would only help the decks development. Thanks

I don't need to test this precise deck list to tell you that aisman is exactly correct. You need at least 18 color sources to make this deck run smoothly. Play 3 or 4 Wastelands on top of that. Never count Wastelands as mana sources.

[scrumdogg]

Replacing the Green with Black makes a lot of sense. Unless you are expecting no combo, why wouldn't you have 4x Orim's Chant in the SB? That gives you a solid 8 cards to bring vs combo (4 Pillar, 4 Chant) and 7 cards that round out your other matches (ex. 1x Jitte, 3x Price of Progess, 3x Disenchant/Aura of Silence/Serenity). Black gives you Dark Confidant, whose virtual draw & removal-sucking-attraction make the rest of your guys come faster & stick longer (hmm...that sounds like one of those ads for herbal sexual supplements, sorry about that...).

[thefreakaccident]

Well..
I think still calling it fish is completely wrong, but anyways. I like the deck overall looks strong (very aggressive), I do think that If a third color would be added it would have to be black. Black gives you confidant, discard, and awesome SB options (which are all pretty awesome if you ask me). Just my lil bit of input. Everyone tries to revolutionize the feild of magic in some way shape or form (except goblin players, because they have no creativity or soul).

[aznfoodgood]

well, if its not fish then what is it? is it midranged boros?

also, im going to try cram 21 lands into the deck, i have no idea where im going to find room, but there going in there weather they like it or not...

thanks for the imput, ill show you my decklist lator

[insertnamehere]

I think splashing in a 3rd color could only make any deck worse unless you have enough resources to get the other colored mana out. This deck seems fast enough without the 3rd color, why ruin it. Burn their creatures and attack with your creatures FTW.

[aznfoodgood]

hey guys i have a up date for the new deck list.

4 plateau
3 plains
3 mountains
4 wooded foothills
4 windswept heath
4 wasteland

creatures
4 mother of ruins
4 silver knights
3 joten grunt
3 serra avengers
2 tividar of thorn

jitte
3 jitte

3 pyroclasm
4 magma jet
4 lightning bolt
4 swords to plowshares
4 pillage

SB
3 true believer
4 pyrostatic pillar
3 abeyance
3 seal of cleansing
2 rule of law

I took out mana tithe, it wasn’t as good as I thought it was. I added in swords to plowshares to take care of midrange agro. I added in more anti combo stuff despite the lack of combo in my meta. Dropped to 3 avengers, they were kind of clogging my hand. Dropped 3 molten rain and added 1 more pillage. Pillage is better, it can hit artifacts…

Any ideas?? Please post them.. I don’t have the resources to add black, but I have though about it. Its not that great and I don’t think it adds much besides dark confidant.