[Discussion] Kiki-Hussar combo

[Top Deck]

here is my deck list

4 wooded foothills
4 windswept heath
2 bloodstained mire
4 bayou
4 taiga

1 gigapede
1 squee, goblin nabob
1 essence warden
4 putrid imp
1 angel of despair
4 bird of paradise
4 elvish spirit guide
4 exhume

1 kiki-jiki, mirror breaker
1 karmic guide
1 sky hussar

4 animate dead
4 reanimate
4 survival of the fittest

4 dark ritual
3 buried alive

turn 1 goes like this with a 'God' hand:

turn 1:
1)play bayou
2)dark ritual
3)use elvish spirit guide for mana
4)cast buried (using 2 black and 1 green) alive putting kiki-jiki, karmic guide, sky hussar into yard.
5) cast reanimate targetting karmic guide... you lose 5 life
when karmic guide comes into play you get back kiki-jiki
6) kiki-jiki now in play --- tap kiki targetting karmic guide and put a copy into play and with new copy get back sky hussar ----
7) sky hussar untaps all creatures
8) tap kiki-jiki to put a copy of sky hussar (with haste) into play.
9) repeat step 7 as many times as you wish... in multiplayer games it is possible to kill everyone off on that turn regardless of life total.

this deck is like the new channel-fireball for legacy. very consistent turn 1 or 2 wins, but i need to fix up the mana base for it and suggestions are very much welcomed.

Capitalization and punctuation are required on these boards. Please start using them. - Zilla

[nitewolf9]

What do you do against swords to plowshares? Lose the game?

[xsockmonkeyx]

Can you go into you card choices one by one? Do you have any matchup data?

[Top Deck]

What do you do against swords to plowshares? Lose the game?

you can go off in response to them plowsharing a criticial creature. but yaw it can be a problem so it might be good to use:

cabal therapy or perhaps dosan.

the number one thing i feel is that the number of lands is quite high. i need to tweak the numbers, but i think the combo is pretty solid.

[nitewolf9]

you can go off in response to them plowsharing a criticial creature.

If they time it correctly, doing it in response to a kiki activation for instance, you cannot...creature based combo is usually bad because it can be disrupted by cards that are normally just dead against other forms of combo. Why would someone play this over tendrils combo if the goal is to kill quickly? It's much harder to disrupt them, and they don't rely on a single spell to go off.

[Top Deck]

If they time it correctly, doing it in response to a kiki activation for instance, you cannot...creature based combo is usually bad because it can be disrupted by cards that are normally just dead against other forms of combo. Why would someone play this over tendrils combo if the goal is to kill quickly? It's much harder to disrupt them, and they don't rely on a single spell to go off.

the reason why is that you can win turn 1 versuses any number of players at the same time. where as tendrils would have very little hope in beating two guys out in a 2-head giant legacy tourney for instance. this deck can kill any number of players on turn 1 ;-)

but yaw if you are talking about consistency.... tendrils right now might be more consistent with dig spells, but this deck could get to that level if the right tweaks or modifications were made.

[Firebrothers]

I dont know about this deck but if you tweak it right it could play like a combo on turn 1-2 if you got it and if you dont then you can go for the aggro win and play like a survival deck.

Pretty unique idea that definatly needs some testing results to back it up if you want more people interested in this.

[Top Deck]

Can you go into you card choices one by one? Do you have any matchup data?

here are the card choices

1 gigapede - this card is in the deck because if you have a combo piece in your hand and no discard outlet and you cast buried alive... then you can fetch on gigapede and then attempt to go off next turn.

1 squee, goblin nabob - very strong with survival. honestly he might not be needed though.
1 essence warden - you can gain infinite life with her, but again not sure if she is needed either.
1 angel of despair - sometimes you need to remove that 1 perm that is stopping you from attack.... ie solidarity confinement etc.

reanimation spells - originally i had 8 in the deck, but a friend pointed out that it is the 'harder' piece to get. i might need to replace a set with better card drawing.
4 animate dead
4 reanimate
4 exhume

combo pieces:
1 karmic guide - once she is play she gets kiki-jiki.
1 kiki-jiki, mirror breaker - once he is in play he copies karmic guide and then sky hussar after.
1 sky hussar - once he comes into play he untaps everyone including good ole kiki.

combo enablers:
4 survival of the fittest - use this to ditch spirit guides or other creatures for more combo pieces.
4 buried alive - the grand daddy of the combo fetch. you can get all of the combo pieces with this spell.
3 putrid imp - it is either him or wild mongrel or both. imp and survival are the only discard outlets to get combo into the yard.

mana accel:
4 dark ritual
4 bird of paradise
4 elvish spirit guide - works to ditch to survival or allows a first turn survival and also allows first turn wins. and spirit guides can get around that evil card we call 'daze'.


sorry i dont have matchup data. played against goblins, and raped them. they couldnt go off before i could go off. and most of the time i only need 1 land to go off. i wish i could provide more information, but i havent tested the deck too much since i just threw it together last week. been busy with the business so no real time to think about the deck. i put it out on the source to get feedback and maybe some better analysis.

Capitalization and punctuation are required on these boards. Please start using them. - Zilla

[Disagree]

so far it looks like the idea is pretty solid.. personaly i think you should build it more around a survival deck so it has the same threats etc and then throw the combo into it so you can be playing like normal and then randomly just win. if it gets disrupted then you can just go normal survival etc you know?

[Radley]

What do you do against swords to plowshares? Lose the game?

how about adding death wish or living wish and put another kiki-jiki in sideboard just in case

animate dead on karmic guide? karmic guide is prot balck isn't it?

the problem in this deck is it doesnt have any tutoring cards really

Capitalization and punctuation are required on these boards. Please start using them. - Zilla

[sammiel]

how about adding death wish or living wish and put another kiki-jiki in sideboard just in case

animate dead on karmic guide? karmic guide is prot balck isn't it?

the problem in this deck is it doesnt have any tutoring cards really

Err...

Animate dead has worked on pro-black creatures for a long time.

Did you really just say that a deck running both buried alive and survival of the fittest doesnt have any tutors?

[Lego]

animate dead on karmic guide? karmic guide is prot balck isn't it?

Welcome to the source Radley!

Here's the answer to your question:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4130

[Top Deck]

so far it looks like the idea is pretty solid.. personaly i think you should build it more around a survival deck so it has the same threats etc and then throw the combo into it so you can be playing like normal and then randomly just win. if it gets disrupted then you can just go normal survival etc you know?

honestly you suggestion is the route i want to go. i still think it can go that route, but the only issue is how to ensure i get a reanimation spell? i guess i could cut 8 of the reanimation spells in favor or more utility creatures. the bad part is that i am not the greatest survival player and i noticed that a lot of survival players tend to junk up their decks with too many utility creatures if you know what i mean.

anyhow i am open to suggestions and interested in any decklists anyone else has for this combo/aggro deck.

Capitalization and punctuation are required on these boards. Please start using them. - Zilla

[Watcher487]

Well I would probably keep 2 Animate Dead and put in 2 Dance of the Dead and cut the rest of the Re-animate spells. Add in 1 Academy Rector, 4 Cabal Therapy, 1 Apprentice Necromancer, 1 Anger and 1 Chrome Mox. How while yeah it's cutting out your turn 1/2 kills, it would probably be best to decide which way to go with the deck, you can go more controling and win via the combo w/ Survival or you can concentrate on the combo aspect and drop the Survival aspect.

But this isn't something really new to the format... when Sky Hussar first came out this combo was discussed and considered an ok combo deck w/ the back-up of going a more controlling Survival route.

I'll try to find the origional posts and link them up here for reference.

[Top Deck]

Well I would probably keep 2 Animate Dead and put in 2 Dance of the Dead and cut the rest of the Re-animate spells. Add in 1 Academy Rector, 4 Cabal Therapy, 1 Apprentice Necromancer, 1 Anger and 1 Chrome Mox. How while yeah it's cutting out your turn 1/2 kills, it would probably be best to decide which way to go with the deck, you can go more controling and win via the combo w/ Survival or you can concentrate on the combo aspect and drop the Survival aspect.

But this isn't something really new to the format... when Sky Hussar first came out this combo was discussed and considered an ok combo deck w/ the back-up of going a more controlling Survival route.

I'll try to find the origional posts and link them up here for reference.

the weird part is honestly survival is the 'backup' plan. the initial plan is to get buried alive going. if you can get buried alive on turn 1 or 2 then you pretty much just win if you have reanimate in your hand. true the whole thing isnt fool proof since they can counter the reanimate. i dont see the point of academy rector... sure he can fetch a survival, but survival right now is the backup plan.

thanks for looking up the deck reference. i do still there i need some duress and therapies in the deck or maybe dosan or something that hinders their ability to play stuff on my turn.

one of the delicate things to consider is the ratio balance of reanimation, discard/search enablers, and creatures.... i think i can cut more lands in favor of more 'free' mana ie land grant... simian spirit guides, chrome moxen, etc.

Capitalization and punctuation are required on these boards. Please start using them. - Zilla

[Watcher487]

I dont see the point of academy rector... sure he can fetch a survival, but survival right now is the backup plan.

Actually Rector fetches Animate Dead or Dance of the Dead for you to go off so you have a way to go off if you don't have a the reanimate spell.

[Radley]

Err...

Animate dead has worked on pro-black creatures for a long time.

Did you really just say that a deck running both buried alive and survival of the fittest doesnt have any tutors?


how can you search for buried alive? survival of the fittest is just a back up plan and it isn't nearly as good as buried alive because you have to pay green mana for it's activation cost and casting cost

so basically, you need a dark ritual in your first turn and an elvish spirit guide in turn 1 to win. so, 1 land, 1 dark ritual, 1 elvish spirit guide, 1 reanimate spell, 1 buried alive = all that five cards should be in hand to win? how did you guys became consistent in winning turn 1 or 2?

Capitalization and punctuation are required on these boards. Please start using them. - Zilla

[Zilla]

Aside from Swords to Plowshares (which seems like it could be a real problem for you), you don't appear to have any outs to a turn 1 Pithing Needle naming Kiki-Jiki. It just shuts down the entire deck. Even Therapy won't fix that problem. You're going to need some reactive form of artifact removal, like Uktabi Orangutan.

[Watcher487]

Aside from Swords to Plowshares (which seems like it could be a real problem for you), you don't appear to have any outs to a turn 1 Pithing Needle naming Kiki-Jiki. It just shuts down the entire deck. Even Therapy won't fix that problem. You're going to need some reactive form of artifact removal, like Uktabi Orangutan.

Actually zilla, he's running Angel of Despair right now. While yeah it needs to be reanimated, it's just as good if not better especially if you have Kiki in play.

[Top Deck]

Actually zilla, he's running Angel of Despair right now. While yeah it needs to be reanimated, it's just as good if not better especially if you have Kiki in play.

Yaw Angel of Despair is there to hopefully fix all of those nasty issues. But again I could put other utility creatures in the deck. Not sure about the numbers though.

Sorry about not capitalizing. Unfortunately I am an Engineer and we tend to not use them. Weird how Microsoft Word automatically capitalizes stuff for us.

There are obvious holes in the deck, because we have to be real and concede that no deck is 'perfect' and no deck can beat every other deck. Now we also have to see what else can be done with the deck to shift it to becoming more competitive in the meta.

Oh yaw as far as going off turn 1 and 2... it happens a lot. Turn 3 wins happen pretty much all of the time as well. If you get buried alive in the opening hand and say a bird of paradise as well, you are bound to go off turn 3.

Turn 1: land + bird.
Turn 2: land + buried alive.
Turn 3: Reanimate or Animate Dead = FTW.

The deck doesnt require that many cards to go off. That's what makes it strong. Most combo decks like solidarity need a ton of pieces and thus make up for it by digging for it. This goes for 2 land belcher as well.

Anyhow the deck was made to win in a two-headed giant game. It can kill any number of players turn 1. I think it is unique in that sense in magic ;-). There are a lot of decks that can kill 1 player on turn 1 but very very few decks that can kill any number of players turn 1. :smile:

[Lego]

There are a lot of decks that can kill 1 player on turn 1 but very very few decks that can kill any number of players turn 1. :smile:

Unique means there's only one. But pretty much any infinite combo can kill any number of players. That means Aluren, Life (and there are many combos that will give you infinite life, thus allowing you to do infinite damage), Enduring Renewal combos, any combos involving infinite turns, Pandemonium combos, Heartbeat of Spring combos like Magus/Freed from the Real, Niv-Mizzet/Curiosity, Izzet Guildmage + lots of stuff... the list goes on and on from there. And I'm assuming you can potentially do any of these things on turn 1. The question lies in consistency. And why you would want to kill numerous players on turn 1 anyway.

That said, I think TES can technically kill two players on turn 1. Just saying.

EDIT: Can't believe I forgot Dragon. That can easily go infinite on turn 1 :) It's not Legacy legal though.

[Top Deck]

Unique means there's only one. But pretty much any infinite combo can kill any number of players. That means Aluren, Life (and there are many combos that will give you infinite life, thus allowing you to do infinite damage), Enduring Renewal combos, any combos involving infinite turns, Pandemonium combos, Heartbeat of Spring combos like Magus/Freed from the Real, Niv-Mizzet/Curiosity, Izzet Guildmage + lots of stuff... the list goes on and on from there. And I'm assuming you can potentially do any of these things on turn 1. The question lies in consistency. And why you would want to kill numerous players on turn 1 anyway.

That said, I think TES can technically kill two players on turn 1. Just saying.

EDIT: Can't believe I forgot Dragon. That can easily go infinite on turn 1 :) It's not Legacy legal though.

Two headed giant. You need to kill as many players as possible. :tongue:

[Firebrothers]

Recurring nightmare could be pretty strong in this deck and you could run it in place of one other of your reanimate spells.

[Disagree]

Was about to say the same thing about recuring nightmare...

Yah.. i would form it around a Recsur build and just throw that combo in there as just a random Yah ill go ahead and win type stuff.

[Top Deck]

Was about to say the same thing about recuring nightmare...

Yah.. i would form it around a Recsur build and just throw that combo in there as just a random Yah ill go ahead and win type stuff.

Yaw I think 1 Reccuring Nightmare would be good in the deck and that card has great synergy with Angel of Dispair. So I guess Ill take out one exhume in favor for that card.

how would the build look now? Maybe 1 Academy Rector also?

[Lego]

Two headed giant. You need to kill as many players as possible. :tongue:

Ummmmm... you need to kill TWO players, no? And they share a life total, so you don't even need more than one spell to do it. Plus, if one of them loses, they both lose, so Solidarity only has to mill one library. Admittedly not turn 1, but Two-Headed Giant is just like playing against one opponent with twice as much life. You should probably design your deck in concert with your partner's deck, rather than relying all on your lonesome to win.

[Top Deck]

Ummmmm... you need to kill TWO players, no? And they share a life total, so you don't even need more than one spell to do it. Plus, if one of them loses, they both lose, so Solidarity only has to mill one library. Admittedly not turn 1, but Two-Headed Giant is just like playing against one opponent with twice as much life. You should probably design your deck in concert with your partner's deck, rather than relying all on your lonesome to win.

Ahhhh you got me lego man :wink: Okay okay let's say theortically you are playing 200 players casually and they are all playing legacy and goblins. Thus you can pull off a first turn and kill them all. hahah.

Anyhow back the deck. Has anyone had a chance to test it? I have been busy with other business stuff online and I have been posting on other forums discussing random topics.

THanks for your input.

[CleverPetriDish]

You should forget the god hand crap and focus on reality. To get this deck into anything apporaching playability, you need some defense/disruption.

As of now, you pretty well die to anyone playing Crypts or Neeedles.

Perhaps discussing a sb would help.

[Top Deck]

You should forget the god hand crap and focus on reality. To get this deck into anything apporaching playability, you need some defense/disruption.

As of now, you pretty well die to anyone playing Crypts or Neeedles.

Perhaps discussing a sb would help.

The deck doesnt need a "God" hand to go off. It can go off easily on turn 2 or 3. Now what would you suggest in making the deck more robust then? Crypts is a problem for the deck, but so few people run them in the meta where I am at.

Needles could be an issue, but I can always get the angel of despair and smash the needle. Anyhow why not suggest a deck list. Thanks.

[Top Deck]

Does anyone have a stable build of a reanimator deck that I could use as a shell for this version of reanimator?

[Radley]

combo pieces
1 karmic guide
1 kiki-jiki, the mirror breaker
1 sky hussar

3 buried alive
4 burning wish
3 death wish
4 dark ritual
3 reanimate
4 animate dead
3 exhume
4 mox diamond
4 lotus petal
2 putrid imp

lands
4 bloodstained mire
4 polluted delta
4 badlands
1 mountain
8 swamp
2 rishadan port

Sideboard:
1 sky hussar
1 kiki-jiki, mirror breaker
1 karmic guide
1 exhume
1 buried alive
1 reanimate
1 putrid imp

-need more SB

I've seen a variant of this deck from somewhere but I can't find it so I started a new topic. The previous deck was so inconsistent and as I've tried this deck for a few times, with the addition of the wishes and focusing into just buried alive makes this deck consistent. This deck is so consistent to go off into combo at turn 2. Turn 1 is also possible if you draw a land, a dark ritual, a lotus petal/mox diamond and buried alive. If those are not in your hand, there is a high possiblity of having 1 burning wish or death wish to get a buried alive or any card you need for combo.

So, basically, you buried alive karmic guide, kiki-jiki and sky hussar then reanimate/exhume/animate dead karmic guide, then use karmic guide's ability to revive kiki-jiki, then copy karmic guide, then revive sky hussar to untap all creatures including kiki-jiki, you then copy sky hussar then kiki-jiki untaps again. Then do the loop all day until you got trillions or more sky hussar then attack.

Infernal tutor and lion's eye diamond(helps to discard the creature combo pieces), can be good addition to the deck, this can give you more chance to go into combo at turn 1.

if your opponent has no disruption of any kind then they are very much "F"ed in the "A".
This deck needs some kind of disruption that has synergy with the deck.

[vigilante]

Just at a quick glance, this version seems to be devoid of any sort of disruption or combo-protection whatsoever (Duress, Cabal Therapy, anything). It would appear that you scoop to any countermagic or graveyard hate, as well as Meddling Mage, Pithing Needle and Swords to Plowshares. Top Deck's original version of this deck also lacked disruption or protection -- that's probably something that needs addressing in order for this combo to succeed.

[Radley]

Swords to plowshares = death wish, nothing against pithing needle and meddling mage though. I guess adding 1 angel of despair and/or any other sorcery that can deal with those[I got 4 burning wishes and death wishes(if in dire need]

Oh, i got something for meddling mage, how about devastating dreams or pyroclasms. So +2 devastating dreams/pyroclasm in SB.

For pithing needle, 1 sb of shattering spree. Not only useful against pithing needle, also against stax.

I don't think any good deck with combo has a good disruption. Solidarity's only disruption is FoW and it makes the deck suck doesn't it? IGG doesn't have any good disruption at all. Maybe leyline of void but some people don't prefer it. Orim's chant's addition to deck makes IGGY pop more vulnerable to wasteland lock. I played earlier on against a MUC, FoW my buried alive at 2nd turn, he casted brainstorm and some draw cards but I still won. I think this deck has lots of threat and my opponent has just got few disruption.

Ok, gotta test this deck more.

Intuition will be a good addition but blue has to be splashed.

EDIT: I noticed that this deck falls victim to glacial chasm ^_^ Crop rotation + glacial chasm = Game over or Living wish then play glacial chasm = GG

[ACE]

the reason why is that you can win turn 1 versuses any number of players at the same time. where as tendrils would have very little hope in beating two guys out in a 2-head giant legacy tourney for instance. this deck can kill any number of players on turn 1 ;-)

but yaw if you are talking about consistency.... tendrils right now might be more consistent with dig spells, but this deck could get to that level if the right tweaks or modifications were made.

Ok, this deck idea is a bad idea. Swords to plowshares is the number one legacy removal. Lightning Bolt is number two. Leaving kiki jiki very stopable.

If you are talking about a casual deck (AKA multi player), then good, go for it. If not, and you are serious, there are very many weaknesses in the deck.

Number one, you did mention it CAN win on turn one, but when you NEED a hand that consists of that many cards, it becomes a very big problem.

You need two mana sources = Not hard to do when you play 23 land, plus four lotus petal, and four mox diamond (Which is FAR too much by the way).

You also need buried alive, a reanimate, and hope that you do not have any of the singleton creature cards in your hand. You need to hope that your opponent does not have a force of will/daze (the number one and two counterspells in the format), or a swords or a bolt (the number one and two forms of removal in the format).

This deck will just lose to one tormods crypt, coffin purge, leyline of the void, planar void, and not to mention extirpate.

I could literally go on forever with reasons you should play something else. Especially tendrills over this for speedious combo decks.