[Discussion] Meat Hooks vs. Thresh: Dueling Meddling Mages

[Volt]

For the purposes of this discussion, I am referring to the post-board configurations of UWg Meat Hooks (CounterSliver) vs. UGw Thresh. Assume that both decks are running Meddling Mages. Meat Hooks will side the mages in for this matchup, possibly along with graveyard hate (i.e. Tormod's Crypt, Jotun Grunt, or Loaming Shaman). Thresh will either be already running the mages maindeck (i.e. Bardo Thresh) or will side them in (i.e. Hatfield Thresh - yes, I know not all Hatfield builds have Mages in the SB, but assume they are in this case). Thresh might also possibly side in 1 or 2 Engineered Explosives. Some people run them, some don't.

The particular aspect of this matchup I wish to discuss is what to name with Meddling Mages. I have found that these games often come down to who draws the most mages the earliest, and what each person names with them. I have listed some possible suggested targets below, but don't feel restricted to these lists:

Suggested Meddling Mage targets for the Thresh player
Swords to Plowshares
Crystalline Sliver
Sinew Sliver
Winged Sliver
Meddling Mage
<graveyard hate card>

Suggested Meddling Mage targets for the Meat Hooks player
Swords to Plowshares
Mystic Enforcer
Werebear
Nimble Mongoose
Meddling Mage
Predict


Let me get the discussion rolling by posing the following questions:

1) If there are no other Mages in play, what do you name with your first Mage? Why?
2) If there is a Meddling Mage in play naming Swords to Plowshares (for either player), what do you name with the next Mage? Why?

Try to answer these questions from both perspectives (as Thresh Player and as Meat Hooks player). Also, feel free to add any other topical free-style comments you may have.


EDIT: Maybe I should have put this in the Open forum, as Thresh is a Tier 1 deck, and Meat Hooks is a contender for Tier 1. If one of the mods wants to move the thread, that's fine by me. It might spur more conversation there.

[aisman132000]

If i were playing counter-sliver i would probably just name swords to plowshares. i think it might be right just to side out your own swords for mages just so you can take out their swords as your guys quickly get bigger than their guys. this way if you dont have crystaline sliver it doesn't matter because the can't touch your guys anyway.

If i'm playing threshold i think i name crystaline sliver every time. Counter-sliver is built on the pillars of fat, untargability and evasion. naming one of the pump slivers doesn't really do anything as they have 8 others (plated and either sinew or muscle) and naming winged doesn't do anything cause you can just swords it. If you name crystaline sliver your day just got easier.

Keep in mind i haven't tested this matchup at all this is just my two cents from looking at it on paper.

[Bane of the Living]

1) If there are no other Mages in play, what do you name with your first Mage? Why?
2) If there is a Meddling Mage in play naming Swords to Plowshares (for either player), what do you name with the next Mage? Why?


1) I dont know this matchup so well but it seems you really want the crystalline sliver to stick. Would naming a counterspell be out of question?

2) In this case Id name Explosives, fearing they may have it in hand. It would be nice to know your opponent has no removal left.

[xsockmonkeyx]

If I were the Thresh player I would NOT name Crystal Sliver with my mage. Why? There are only 4 cards in your deck that it nerfs (StP) which you should probably side out anyway. You shouldnt worry about a Crystal in play as much as you should multiple Pump Slivers. Most of your control over the ground will be countering and denying their slivers and grabbing threshhold. I would rather name 1) StP to make your other Mages stick and protect your Bears and Enforcers 2) Winged Sliver in order keep it a ground game or 3) Pump Slivers to keep the ground game in check.

[Volt]

If I were the Thresh player I would NOT name Crystal Sliver with my mage. Why? There are only 4 cards in your deck that it nerfs (StP) which you should probably side out anyway. You shouldnt worry about a Crystal in play as much as you should multiple Pump Slivers. Most of your control over the ground will be countering and denying their slivers and grabbing threshhold. I would rather name 1) StP to make your other Mages stick and protect your Bears and Enforcers 2) Winged Sliver in order keep it a ground game or 3) Pump Slivers to keep the ground game in check.

If you think Thresh should name Swords to Plowshares first, then I suppose it follows that Meat Hooks should not name Swords to Plowshares if playing the first Mage? So what should MH name first?

And what about question #2?

[Pinder]

Mav and I have done a lot of MH on Thresh testing, and we've come to a few conclusions:

1. If you're playing Thresh, your first Mage generally doesn't need to name Crystalline. Mage on pump slivers is typically much more effective. The main edge that Meathooks has over Thresh is that, in the long run, their creatures just outsize Thresh's. 4/4 Bear? Bah. 5/6 flying untargetable is where's it at. If Thresh manages to get Mage naming Sinew and Muscle (this was more relevant when they just had to name Muscle, but the point stands), it doesn't matter if MeatHooks has untargetable creatures. Crystalline dies to Mongoose on its own. If Thresh can manage to keep MeatHook's creatures small, it doesn't really have a tough time winning. Now, betwen Muscle and Sinew both being maindeck now, it might be harder to turn off all of MH's pump, but we'll see.

2. If you're playing MeatHooks, side out Swords for Mage...then name Swords. Because (like you) UGw Thresh only has Swords, this essentially turns Meddling Mage into Crystalline 5-8. This allows you to go on the offensive a lot quicker. The only problem this typically causes is that sometimes you'll have trouble dealing with a resolved Enforcer. Keep Enforcer off the table thoug (perhaps with another Mage), and your creatures typically outmatch Thresh's.

3. If there's already a Mage naming Swords (on either side), and you know Thresh has EE, name it. EE is so annoying for MeatHooks.

I can't really talk too much about what Thresh wants to side against MeatHooks (talk to Mav about that), but a few things I can think of offhand that would be tough for us to have Maged are:

1. Swords to Plowshares (if we haven't sided them out)
2. Muscle/Sinew Sliver
3. Crystalline Sliver (if there's not a Mage naming swords)
4. Meddling Mage

edit: Oh, and for the actual questions:

1) If there are no other Mages in play, I typically name Swords when I'm playing Slivers. No removal = good times.
2) If there's already a Mage naming swords? Depends on what they have on the table. EE is always a good choice if you know they have it, but if they have yet to drop a Werebear, go ahead and name it. You're turning off about half of their actual threats that way.

[Volt]

Yeah, as the MH player, I think siding out StP for the Mages is a pretty good idea, although not without risks. If you look at the following scenarios, it makes sense:

If opponent plays the 1st Mage
...and names "Swords to Plowshares," he has essentially wasted a Mage.
...and names "Crystalline Sliver," then you name StP with your 1st Mage, and all your slivers essentially become crystalline anyway.

If you play the 1st Mage
... you name "Swords to Plowshares," likely leaving your opponent with dead cards in his deck. In my experience, Thresh players rarely side out their own Swords for this matchup.


I have found that there are scenarios where I want to name "Meddling Mage" with my Meddling Mage. Particularly if I've already gotten down one or two of them, but my opponent doesn't have any in play yet, and I know he's running them.