Genesis and Echo; Serra Avenger

[Silverdragon]

Question 1: At the beginning of my upkeep can I choose to not pay echo on a creature and then return it to my hand with Genesis?

Question 2: Let's say I was able to play a Vedalken Orrery on my first turn, can I play Serra Avenger on my opponents first turn (or second or third for that matter)?

[iOWN]

Question 1: At the beginning of my upkeep can I choose to not pay echo on a creature and then return it to my hand with Genesis?

Question 2: Let's say I was able to play a Vedalken Orrery on my first turn, can I play Serra Avenger on my opponents first turn (or second or third for that matter)?

Question 1: All triggered abilities are put on the stack at the beginning of your turn, all at the same time (you get to choose the order). Genesis's trigger is optional, but if you pay the mana for it to trigger you must choose targets as it is put onto the stack. So in this case, the echo trigger is still on the stack when you need to choose a target, and the creature is still in play, so no.


303.1. As the upkeep step begins, any abilities that trigger at the beginning of that upkeep step and any abilities that triggered during the turn's untap step go on the stack. (See rule 410, "Handling Triggered Abilities.") Then the active player gets priority and players may play spells and abilities.


410.3. If multiple abilities have triggered since the last time a player received priority, each player, in APNAP order, puts triggered abilities he or she controls on the stack in any order he or she chooses. (See rule 103.4.) Then players once again check for and resolve state-based effects until none are generated, then abilities that triggered during this process go on the stack. This process repeats until no new state-based effects are generated and no abilities trigger. Then the appropriate player gets priority.

1. Beginning of upkeep.
2. Triggers; you choose to put Echo on first, then Genesis (most likely, if you even wanted to try it).
3. You pay the Genesis cost (I may be wrong about the order here) and choose targets before it enters the stack.
4. Genesis resolves, returning the target, then you sacrifice the creature without paying it's echo cost.

In reverse order, you would sacrifice the creature first, but Genesis still would go on the stack before it was legal target anyways.

[Anusien]

Question 2: Let's say I was able to play a Vedalken Orrery on my first turn, can I play Serra Avenger on my opponents first turn (or second or third for that matter)?
Yep

[on1y0ne]

Question 1: All triggered abilities are put on the stack at the beginning of your turn, all at the same time (you get to choose the order). Genesis's trigger is optional, but if you pay the mana for it to trigger you must choose targets as it is put onto the stack. So in this case, the echo trigger is still on the stack when you need to choose a target, and the creature is still in play, so no.





1. Beginning of upkeep.
2. Triggers; you choose to put Echo on first, then Genesis (most likely, if you even wanted to try it).
3. You pay the Genesis cost (I may be wrong about the order here) and choose targets before it enters the stack.
4. Genesis resolves, returning the target, then you sacrifice the creature without paying it's echo cost.

In reverse order, you would sacrifice the creature first, but Genesis still would go on the stack before it was legal target anyways.

You are correct about everything save one point: You pay for the Genesis ability as it resolves.

[Locutus]

You are correct about everything save one point: You pay for the Genesis ability as it resolves.
To make this more clear, the order would be more like the following:
1. Beginning of upkeep.
2. Triggers; you put Genesis on the stack, choosing the target, then Echo. The creature with echo is still in play, so it can't be chosen as a target.
3. Echo resolves, your creature dies if you don't pay.
4. Genesis resolves, and you may pay 2G to return the targeted creature to your hand.

Also note that Genesis' trigger is not 'optional', it will always ttrigger and go on the stack. On resolution you decide wether to pay the 2G or not.