[Discussion] Are 'broken' Cards really broken?

[C.P.]

Before I start, I'm not sure if this thread belongs here. So feel free to crrect me if this does not belong here.

I've been looking at the legacy banned list for quite a while. What i realized was that some cards on the list was almost impossible to brake, or justfy the ban.

Maybe It's just me, so I'd like to share my result on the topic.

First, the cards, that should be banned no matter what. Hopely no one thinks these cards should be allowed.

Amulet of Quoz
Ancestral Recall
Balance
Bazaar of Baghdad
Black Lotus
Bronze Tablet
Channel
Chaos Orb
Contract from Below
Darkpact
Demonic Attorney
Demonic Tutor
Dream Halls
Falling Star
Fastbond
Jeweled Bird
Mana Crypt
Mana Drain
Mana Vault
Memory Jar
Mind's Desire
Mishra's Workshop
Mox Emerald
Mox Jet
Mox Pearl
Mox Ruby
Mox Sapphire
Rebirth
Sol Ring
Strip Mine
Tempest Efreet
Time Spiral
Time Walk
Timetwister
Timmerian Fiends
Tinker
Tolarian Academy
Wheel of Fortune
Windfall
Yawgmoth's Will

So, following cards were tried(some as a joke) on the format, one at a time.


Demonic Consultation
Imperial Seal
Vampiric Tutor

B for Tutoring. Consultation is the most powerful of these three. All three was tested black stombased decks and the decks that can use some versatility (MBC, Sui black, Uwb fish)
All of them was too good.


Black Vise

I tried this card just because some fool claimed this card should be unbanned. I threw four in every aggro decks in the format, and it was not pretty. Surprisingly, though, since the format was all about aggro right now, it was not as devastating as other cards. Well, It made control even more unviable.


Frantic Search

I threw four in solidarity.


Goblin Recruiter

Ok, did you not have enough goblins as it is?


Gush

There is no Fastbond in the format, so it cannot be abused to the vitage extent. I made legacy grow, and threw some in thresh and stasis, and It was Very good, but not broken. Tog decks also liked the card, and it already has four FoF, but It still was not good enough to warrant a ban. But the card was very swingy and dangerous, so I hope it remains banned.


Grim Monolith
Metalworker

With four Voltaic Key, It was pretty broken. Stax decks became better. I only used it in Mono blue and stax type of decks, so I'm pretty sure there are better ways of abusing the card.


Mind Twist

The usual black discard deck did not need the car, at least not as a four of card. It was not that great untill Black ***** and fish started make 3 for one advatage with the card. The fact that it was really splashable make the card really dangerous, thus banworthy.


Necropotence
Yawgmoth's Bargain

Both of them were way too much to handle in combo decks.


Oath of Druids

The fact that this card forces beatdown deck to fold is very bad. During the testing, my old hatred for the card awakend again. And RW Goblins with proper tech can win though a oath. Wow.

Skullclamp

Affinity with fling just became too good. Goblins and elves like the card, too. Control became unplayable after the card was played. should not be unbanned. Ever.

Worldgorger Dragon

The combo can consitantly pull a first turn kill with all the free mana lying around. The fact that you can draw the match anytime you want is also pretty bad. Should remain banned.



The cards with a little shdow of doubt. Break it all you want please.

Earthcraft

Infinite combos abusing the card was bad and fragile. However, as a sheer accelator in some decks, the card was not funny. Still, Green sucks in the format, so could not justify the ban. Can someone break the card so it can win though Goblins and Solidarity?


Illusionary Mask

MaskNought was Bad. Really bad. Everyone's favorite 1 mana goblin was so much better at putting big thing in play and win. Only reason the the card should remain banned is probably its price.


Library of Alexandria

It was not as great as it was supossed to be. It was weather overkill, or it did not stay in the game. I played 4 in every single slow control type build, and it was good, but keeping 7 cards in hand in a format of FoW and Hymn to torach was hard. Roam confinement type of deck broke it, but is it really that good? Well, the fact that it is worth a lot mean the it should stay there, I guess.


Mind Over Matter

I'm not sure if it is that broken. Sure, Spring Tide and enchantress can abuse the heck outta this card, but being a six mana card made this card to be more of a overkill card. I'd like to see it broken by someone.


Entomb

There was no existing deck type i could find that would abuse the card. Sure enough, reanimator likes the card, but the deck is not dominating the format, even with this card.


Hermit Druid

With all the free mana, you can consitantly pull the combo on turn two. But the combo is really easily disrupted. It cried to Needle and StP all day. It was just another turn two kill deck that dies to intense hate.


Land Tax

The interaction with Scroll Rack is very good, and the fact that you get three cards for free make it good no matter what. but Was not game-warping due to the fact that it only searches basics out made it weak. It was just a good standstill in most times.


Finally, the card that I think as totally harmless.


Replenish

Ok, complain all you want, but I could not make a broken replenish deck. Penderburst replenish was another bad 3 turn kill deck, and control deck usind wave and tide was too slow. sure, turn 3 double decree of silence with Opalesence was bad, but same goes for Ill-Gotten-Gains, if you ask me. There is no Demonic Consultation or Frantic Search to make the card broken as it used to be. Gifts ungiven became really interesting with the card, though.



That's it. Hopely you can break other cards and justify the ban. I think I'll write my letter for unbaning replenish...lol

[KillemallCFH]

Earthcraft

Infinite combos abusing the card was bad and fragile. However, as a sheer accelator in some decks, the card was not funny. Still, Green sucks in the format, so could not justify the ban. Can someone break the card so it can win though Goblins and Solidarity? Yeah, no good decks (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3985) run green (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3988)...

[C.P.]

Yeah, no good decks (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3985) run green (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3988)...

Sure, throw some Earthcraft in the ***** and see how good it is...:wink:

I guess I did not make myself clear. What I meant was green as large mana mana generator or land trick colour sucks at legacy.

[Cait_Sith]

Okay, there was a discussion on the WotC boards and a turn 0 kill requires Entomb and Anwar. You need to do either:

Remove a card in your hand from the game for Gemstone Caverns, tap it for black mana, play Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Entomb, Necromancy (reanimating Worldgorger Dragon). Let it combo a while, Skeletal Scrying for 2, then remove Simian Spirit Guide from the game to play Ghitu Fire FTW!

Or:

Gemstone Caverns, Dark Ritual x 2, Entomb Worldgorger Dragon, Necromancy on the Gorger, Skeletal Scrying for 3, remove Elvish Spirit Guide to Crop Rotation Glimmervoid, Stroke of Genius to mill them FTW.

I'd rather not Anwar make some turn 0 kills in Legacy.

[Tacosnape]

Worldgorger Dragon

The combo can consitantly pull a first turn kill with all the free mana lying around. The fact that you can draw the match anytime you want is also pretty bad. Should remain banned.

Entomb

There was no existing deck type i could find that would abuse the card. Sure enough, reanimator likes the card, but the deck is not dominating the format, even with this card.

Replenish

Ok, complain all you want, but I could not make a broken replenish deck. Penderburst replenish was another bad 3 turn kill deck, and control deck usind wave and tide was too slow. sure, turn 3 double decree of silence with Opalesence was bad, but same goes for Ill-Gotten-Gains, if you ask me. There is no Demonic Consultation or Frantic Search to make the card broken as it used to be. Gifts ungiven became really interesting with the card, though.


God, I'm so tired of these posts. The format is fine as it is and everybody's got an opinion, and usually a bad one, on how to "fix" the B/R list.

@Worldgorger Dragon: You can't draw the game any time you choose unless there isn't another creature in a graveyard anywhere. Otherwise, you have to break the infinite loop. Beyond that, though, you're right. It stays banned.

@Entomb: It fetches more than Reanimator. It's a one mana Demonic Tutor in any deck which has graveyard recursion. If legalized, it would be one of the strongest tutors in the format. Does too much for one black. It stays banned.

@Replenish: Just because you can't make a broken deck with the card off the top of your head doesn't mean the card itself isn't broken. It has the potential to net card advantage in the 10+ range and in the right circumstances with the right enchantments is game over when cast. It stays banned.


Okay, there was a discussion on the WotC boards and a turn 0 kill requires Entomb and Anwar.

(Cracks up) Best quote ever.

[Maldur Sven Vedukor]

Wiith Replenish some enchantment based decks would become really good. There are strong enchantments as Decree of Silence, Opalescence, Mirari's wake, and many more... Fetching enchantmnts with intuition, and using some discard, replenish would be good, but not broken.

EDIT: Some of the banned cards are less broken than Aether Vial.

[C.P.]

God, I'm so tired of these posts. The format is fine as it is and everybody's got an opinion, and usually a bad one, on how to "fix" the B/R list.

@Worldgorger Dragon: You can't draw the game any time you choose unless there isn't another creature in a graveyard anywhere. Otherwise, you have to break the infinite loop. Beyond that, though, you're right. It stays banned.

@Entomb: It fetches more than Reanimator. It's a one mana Demonic Tutor in any deck which has graveyard recursion. If legalized, it would be one of the strongest tutors in the format. Does too much for one black. It stays banned.

@Replenish: Just because you can't make a broken deck with the card off the top of your head doesn't mean the card itself isn't broken. It has the potential to net card advantage in the 10+ range and in the right circumstances with the right enchantments is game over when cast. It stays banned.

On entomb and Dragon, I agree. But not on Replenish.

There are many game over spell in the format that are actually cheaper than Replenish. and that 10+ cardadvantage asumms that you put enough cards in GY. Rplenish is slow. Sure, it wins games and does broken things, but it requires time to do so. What card is not game winning in right circumstances? In this case, it happens to be couple enchntments in the GY, but there are about million cheap way of hosing it.


I like the format as it is. It is, by far, my favorite. But I just want to make sure that every single card in the list deserves banning. Remember the days of recall being banned?

[Maldur Sven Vedukor]

Aether Vial is much more broken than replenish... Replenish is slow and it's vulnerable to graveyard hate. Vial is fast, allows you to play a free uncounterable creature at instant speed. That's a lot more broken than replenish. I think if Vial isn't banned, why not unban replenish?

[edgewalker]

You know what should become unbanned? Bazaar of Baghdad. What decks would it help? None of the tier 1 that's for sure. What would it help? Friggorid, Stax, Reanimator and maybe Madness. None of those decks are at all broken. Also long has you keep dragon gone the card is reletively safe, and gives alot of other decks that can be could and healthy for the format better. I personally feel the only reason for it's banning is it's price.

However, the only real card that needs unbanning is Land Tax. It's terrible and really doesn't help any top tier deck. Hell, it doesn't even help Eternal Garden or 43Lands. It might help out Parfait or Enchantress.

[emidln]

From testing, the most dangerous part of Mind Twist is when Prison and Ancient Tomb-based Stompy decks start splashing black for it. These decks can already generate obscene colorless mana in the early turns off permanent sources. A turn 1 Trinisphere followed by a Mind Twist for 3-4 is not something I'd personally want to play against. Or, from a more common perspective, turn 1 Sea Drake, followed up by turn 2 Mind Twist for 3-4. Mind Twist is broken because colorless acceleration lands exist in legacy.

About Bazaar of Baghdad, Stax doesn't need more ways of emptying its hand to force people playing maindeck answers to Ensnaring Bridge. The craziest thing about Bazaar is that it would open up Life from the Loam disruption/aggro in the vein of Dawn of the Dead, which would be really good here in Legacy. Bazaar is the best card advantage engine, and it would be obscene in Stax, Life from the Loam-based aggro/control, and probably some more decks I can't foresee.

[Cait_Sith]

Actually Bazaar is a card DISadvantage engine. The problem is the effect is repeatable, so at worst your just cycling 3 cards a turn (2 bazaar one normal draw, drop 3). Then, you can combine it with cards that lessen or nullify (Basking Rootwalla) the discard. That is where Bazaar starts having problems.

[emidln]

Actually Bazaar is a card DISadvantage engine. The problem is the effect is repeatable, so at worst your just cycling 3 cards a turn (2 bazaar one normal draw, drop 3). Then, you can combine it with cards that lessen or nullify (Basking Rootwalla) the discard. That is where Bazaar starts having problems.

No, you obviously don't understand Bazaar of Baghdad. It says draw 2 cards, discard any combination of 0-3 dead cards, squee, or land in a properly built aggro-control deck. What's more obscene is that for Stax it actually just says Draw 2 cards, empty your hand of what's left, activating Ensnaring Bridge, Crucible, and Welder (who would get a hell of a lot better) all at the same time.

Research a deck called Dawn of the Dead. Then research a deck called UbaStax. Then come back and talk.

[etrigan]

http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4275

[Bane of the Living]

You know what should become unbanned? Bazaar of Baghdad. What decks would it help? None of the tier 1 that's for sure. What would it help? Friggorid, Stax, Reanimator and maybe Madness. None of those decks are at all broken. Also long has you keep dragon gone the card is reletively safe, and gives alot of other decks that can be could and healthy for the format better. I personally feel the only reason for it's banning is it's price.

However, the only real card that needs unbanning is Land Tax. It's terrible and really doesn't help any top tier deck. Hell, it doesn't even help Eternal Garden or 43Lands. It might help out Parfait or Enchantress.

Please please please take Bazaar off the list. Übermadness would pwn the format with that card. Friggord would become playable at least.

One card I really think deserves the light of day is Entomb. Black deserves a good tutor. I mean WHAT THE FUCK?? Its suppose to be blacks part of the color pie, and it doesnt have anything close to straight up tutoring. We have Diabolic for 4cc and Grim for 3cc. Everything else will cost you a special condition or a bunch of life. I think needing two cards, Entomb and something else, to get the card you want in hand is fair. Your putting the work into getting your card, you opening yourself to yard hate. Reanimator might be on the map and I think thats an incredibly healthy thing.

Monolith can come off the list because you really need key to generate any advantage and I doubt anything truely broken would come out of the 5 colorless mana this 'combo' results in.

Lib of Alexandria is something you dont want to see unless you want endless games against Landstill and Confinement decks. Yuck.

[Maldur Sven Vedukor]

Please please please take Bazaar off the list. Übermadness would pwn the format with that card. Friggord would become playable at least.

One card I really think deserves the light of day is Entomb. Black deserves a good tutor. I mean WHAT THE FUCK?? Its suppose to be blacks part of the color pie, and it doesnt have anything close to straight up tutoring. We have Diabolic for 4cc and Grim for 3cc. Everything else will cost you a special condition or a bunch of life. I think needing two cards, Entomb and something else, to get the card you want in hand is fair. Your putting the work into getting your card, you opening yourself to yard hate. Reanimator might be on the map and I think thats an incredibly healthy thing.

Monolith can come off the list because you really need key to generate any advantage and I doubt anything truely broken would come out of the 5 colorless mana this 'combo' results in.

Lib of Alexandria is something you dont want to see unless you want endless games against Landstill and Confinement decks. Yuck.

You're right respect to Grim Monolith.

[C.P.]

Some testing proved that library is probably should stay on the banned list. Bazaar also should stay there. I tried manaless ichorid in legacy, and It seemed better than goblins in some way. Bazaar is way too powerful to be allowed.

As I wrote before, Mind twist also should remain banned. The fact that it is infinitely splashable means bad things.


Did not realized that there was another thread like this. Sorry for inconvenience, everyone.

[Brushwagg]

Earthcraft

Infinite combos abusing the card was bad and fragile. However, as a sheer accelator in some decks, the card was not funny. Still, Green sucks in the format, so could not justify the ban. Can someone break the card so it can win though Goblins and Solidarity?


Have you tried the old Squirrel Prion deck?? It was around when Dragon was Legal. Also no I don't want this card back.

As far as Mind Over Matter goes, the card sucks so who really cares?

@Replenish: Leave it banned. Just to bring up a deck that was pretty good with it, Pandaburst. Replenish pretty much you win.

@Land Tax:The card advantage this card creates can get out of control really fast. Add in Scroll Rack and you have a deck that's even more boring then Landstill.

[Di]

The craziest thing about Bazaar is that it would open up Life from the Loam disruption/aggro in the vein of Dawn of the Dead, which would be really good here in Legacy. Bazaar is the best card advantage engine, and it would be obscene in Stax, Life from the Loam-based aggro/control, and probably some more decks I can't foresee.


Oh. my. GOD. Eternal Garden would be soooooooo insane with Bazaar.


@Land Tax:The card advantage this card creates can get out of control really fast. Add in Scroll Rack and you have a deck that's even more boring then Landstill.

Oh please. Land Tax is fine. That takes forever to gain the advantage, and Scroll Rack gets hit by Needle and removal. Even if it didn't, the deck it would be in would suck, because it'd assumingly be something like Parfait. You gain a sick advantage, and instead of winning immediately you win the game 40 turns from now. Most decks will kill you before you even get anything big going.

[clavio]

@hermit druid: he would be really degenerate in friggorid/loam decks.

[Pinder]

The only possible card I can see coming off that list is Entomb, and even then first turn ritual -> Entomb->Exhume/Animate Dead/Dance of the Dead/Reanimate/Whatever is pretty degenerate.

@Replenish: The first Legacy tournament I played in, I got pwned by Pandaburst in the first round. 42 damage on turn 4. And I had no lands in play because of an accelerated Parallax Tide. Admittedly I was playing jank, but still. With access to IT and LED, that deck can only get more broken.

@Bazaar: This would make Friggorid playabe, but it would make a lot of other decks broken. Drawing 3 cards per turn for free and doing it every turn, is just plain amazing. Especially for something that can come down for free, uncounterable, and go online first turn.

@Worldgorger Dragon: Just....no.

@Earthcraft: I can't really see anything that would keep this from being unbanned now, but I'm sure if they did someone would break the fuck out of it.

@Land Tax: This thing is like Weathered Wayfarer times three. And it fetches any basic, not just Plains. I think that anything that allows you to thin your library that much and ensure your land drops and color fix forever, that can come down first turn, is more than a little good. More than a lot good.

[etrigan]

Research a deck called Dawn of the Dead.

Brief summary please? I found one deck using the card Dawn of the Dead, and it looks incredibly janky.

[ExplosPlankton]

I wish they would unban replenish because its one of my favorite cards ever. It is a very strong card but not any more broken than vial or lackey in my opinion. Replenish combo wouldn't be any faster than ill-gotten gains and would be easier to disrupt than solidarity. I cant imagine a more fun move in magic than replenishing a decree of silence into play.

[Rood]

Is there a just arguement to ban Worldgorger my favorite card of all time? I mean, StP, Blue Elemental Blast, Leyline of the Void, Tormod's Crypt, Trickbind, Stifle, so many answers to his come into play effect. With all the yard hate currently in the format due to threshold, is this card being banned without entomb justified? LOL im trying to make a valid point but I suppose he is incredible broken.....

[ExplosPlankton]

If there was any single card I would leave banned it would be worldgorger. The art is ridiculously bad, the card feels incredibly janky, and the way it draws games is just lame.

[dahcmai]

@Earthcraft: I can't really see anything that would keep this from being unbanned now, but I'm sure if they did someone would break the fuck out of it.

There's an Enchantress combo deck Pat Chapin and I made a long time ago for standard during the Urza's Block constructed days and it was quite sick even for back then. We got it to go off turn 3 pretty easily. I bet I could cut that down a turn nowadays if I researched the newer cards that could add to it.

Enchantress already has an easy time against most aggro, this would give it a combo option to go along with it. Nah, I'll pass on seeing that monster back again.


Anyone try Entomb in Salvagers.dec? Seems like an auto-include for that.


Personally, I think it's fine as it is. It's nice to shake things up a little, but I'd rather just see newer cards do that instead of shaky possibly format warping ones. Those cards on that list were nasty when they were around and who knows what can be made from them now.


If there was any of them I wouldn't mind seeing, it would be Land Tax despite the locks it would throw up. The janky style Scroll tax deck was fun to play against in it's day, though in all honesty it was the best deck of it's time aside from the full 4 Bazaar, 4 Vampiric, Reanimator of the time that I won so much with. I doubt anyone would want to see either make a comeback. 2nd turn nastiness is not fun in current Legacy.

[emidln]

Brief summary please? I found one deck using the card Dawn of the Dead, and it looks incredibly janky.

The deck's name is Dawn of the Dead. It doesn't use that card. Hence the "research a deck called Dawn of the Dead" part.

For the lazy:

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=27434.0

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=27013.0

[Zilla]

@Land Tax: This thing is like Weathered Wayfarer times three. And it fetches any basic, not just Plains. I think that anything that allows you to thin your library that much and ensure your land drops and color fix forever, that can come down first turn, is more than a little good. More than a lot good.
It's more than a lot slow. There's nothing broken at all about this card. For it to be at all useful you have to build a deck around it, and that deck will probably suck. You could theoretically build a strong strategy around it, but that strategy is likely going to be inherently fair because it will be slow enough to give your opponents plenty of time to deal with it.

I don't see how we can look at a card like Land Tax and say it's broken in a format with cards like Tendrils and Survival and Aether Vial available to it. Comparable to the stronger cards that define this format, Land Tax is chump change.

[Xero]

Replenish is not broken. Its a four mana white sorcery that relies on the graveyard to win; you need to be able to put a ton of enchantments in the grave, then succesfully cast this to win. One Force of Will, Tormod's Crypt, or Duess will kill your combo. Sure, if you set up everything right, it is an auto-win; but that's also true for Ill-Gotten Gains, and does anyone think that card is broken?

[dahcmai]

Land Tax is a beast all it's own. I personally wouldn't mind it. I do know how nasty it can be though. I doubt it would be "broken", but it sure is some serious power. I'd rank it next to Dark confidant at this time. Serious card draw with a weakness.

i was actually half surprised when they knocked it out of legacy.

[herbig]

I'm surprised anyone would suggest Bazaar. Manaless Ichorid would absolutely dominate the format.

[morgan_coke]

Mind over Matter's main use imho would be in accelerated Stasis, where if it hits the table, the games over. On the other hand, it costs six mana, so its probably fair. (there are actually three howling mine effects in the formate right now, Kami of the Crescent Moon, Howling Mine, and Walking Archive, combine with some Ebony Owl Netsukes, Stasis' and Static Orbs ftw. It would be like creatureless oppo.)

Land Tax's main use is in zoo style decks paired with cards like Winds of Change and Tolarian Winds that let you turn tons of junk cards into good ones. There used to be a land tax based r/w aggro deck called white blitzing winds that used Tundra Wolves and Lightning Bolts to kill Serra Angels while Winds of Change and Land Tax kept its hand full. (hey, i said its old) Again, its strong, but not ridiculously broken to the degree that things like Vial are.

[Aggro_zombies]

As far as Mind Over Matter goes, the card sucks so who really cares?
Mind over Matter only sucks in a format where Tolarian Academy and lots of cheap artifact mana sources are banned. If you want me to prove it to you, I'll beat the shit out of you with my unrestricted Academy.dec on MWS. First turn win 95% of the time ftw.

I think both Land Tax and Replenish can come off the banned list. The former is, as several people have pointed out, sloooooow. The latter is susceptible to all of the graveyard hate floating around to deal with Thresh decks, including but not limited to:

Tormod's Crypt
Withered Wretch
Leyline of the Void
Planar Void
Morning Tide
etc.

Also, a sorcery-speed combo that wins on turn four is too slow to be competitive in this format. Maybe if it won on turn three consistently, it might be on par with IGGY Pop and Salvagers, but it would also be vulnerable to the same kinds of hate that keep those decks in check. Really, TES would probably be better than this just because it has the potential to win on turn one, can usually win on turn two, and will occassionally have to win on turn three. In other words, TES, while vulnerable to a certain extent to grave hate and discard, goes off too fast for those strategies to become effective. I don't think you could say the same for a deck like Pandaburst.

[Rood]

Traumatize+Replenish would be broken though if there were some way to mana excell into it quickly.

[sammiel]

Traumatize+Replenish would be broken though if there were some way to mana excell into it quickly.


two sorceries that cost a total of 9 mana and don't instantly win you the game are not and would never be broken.

Replenish is not broken, and I could care less if it came back into the format.

Land Tax is powerful but slow. I would definitely find a deck that it works in, but it probably wouldn't be scroll rack. I seem to remember this discussion coming up a couple months ago on SCG and some guy posted a pretty potent decklist with land tax, I'll see if I can find it.

[C.P.]

Traumatize+Replenish would be broken though if there were some way to mana excell into it quickly.

That's really lame. There's way better things to do in the format with 9 mana.

Anyway, as other people said, it is 4mana socery that is easily disruptable. The card is no more broken than IGG, and no one cries for IGG to banned.

The card was broken, sure, in the old extended. But back then, it had Frantic Search and Demonic consultation to go with. And the fact that it relies on GY and most deck in the format packs GY hate might mean that it will not see any play even after the unbanning.

On Land Tax, I cannot be utilized in control decks full of nobasic lands, so only place that it would belong would be some kind of near mono white control. Sure you ancestral every turn, but the format that we are talking about kills on turn four. What good is drawing billon land if you die?

Looks like almost everyone agrees that LT sucks and should be unbanned, so the cards that are still hot:

Replenish (I still believe that this card is harmless)
Hermit Druid
Entomb (I find it to be quite dangerrous, but not to the broken extent)
Mind Over Matter
Earthcraft

[Rood]

That's really lame. There's way better things to do in the format with 9 mana.

Anyway, as other people said, it is 4mana socery that is easily disruptable. The card is no more broken than IGG, and no one cries for IGG to banned.

The card was broken, sure, in the old extended. But back then, it had Frantic Search and Demonic consultation to go with. And the fact that it relies on GY and most deck in the format packs GY hate might mean that it will not see any play even after the unbanning.

On Land Tax, I cannot be utilized in control decks full of nobasic lands, so only place that it would belong would be some kind of near mono white control. Sure you ancestral every turn, but the format that we are talking about kills on turn four. What good is drawing billon land if you die?

Looks like almost everyone agrees that LT sucks and should be unbanned, so the cards that are still hot:

Replenish (I still believe that this card is harmless)
Hermit Druid
Entomb (I find it to be quite dangerrous, but not to the broken extent)
Mind Over Matter
Earthcraft
Look at the time of post my friend, sleep was getting to me most likely I was just trying to think of a good synergy card with Replenish but now that I think about it, Glimpse the Unthinkable would be ALOT better.

[C.P.]

Look at the time of post my friend, sleep was getting to me most likely I was just trying to think of a good synergy card with Replenish but now that I think about it, Glimpse the Unthinkable would be ALOT better.

That's still 3WBU. Three color, six mana. There are better ways of putting enchantments in the GY. And even if you can cast it for the win on turn three, there are GY hate and counter that you have to deal with. Even a simple Stifle will be a pain.

[Anarky87]

I remember Bongo saying awhile ago that he tested a mono-white Land Tax deck with Solitary Confinement and Belcher as a win condition. Basically just walling up behind your Confinement each turn, pulling 3 lands from your deck from Tax to pay for Confinement, then Belching the opponent until they were dead. Ran stuff like StP and artifact mana. You could also run anti-combo cards in Chant and Abeyance. I believe he said it performed pretty decently.

[C.P.]

I remember Bongo saying awhile ago that he tested a mono-white Land Tax deck with Solitary Confinement and Belcher as a win condition. Basically just walling up behind your Confinement each turn, pulling 3 lands from your deck from Tax to pay for Confinement, then Belching the opponent until they were dead. Ran stuff like StP and artifact mana. You could also run anti-combo cards in Chant and Abeyance. I believe he said it performed pretty decently.

To the extent that a card should be banned? the deck sounds like a good deck, but I kinda doubt that it will beat combo, enven with Chant effects. Then the deck would just prrove the point that white control will be better, but not to the extent that it breaks the format.

[Anarky87]

To the extent that a card should be banned? the deck sounds like a good deck, but I kinda doubt that it will beat combo, enven with Chant effects. Then the deck would just prrove the point that white control will be better, but not to the extent that it breaks the format.

I don't know, all I heard was that it was performing very well against Goblins and Thresh, but I don't know about combo. I don't think it should be banned, in fact, I'd like to give that deck a try, I'm just saying the card doesn't immediately suck and that it might be a new contender.

[C.P.]

I don't know, all I heard was that it was performing very well against Goblins and Thresh, but I don't know about combo. I don't think it should be banned, in fact, I'd like to give that deck a try, I'm just saying the card doesn't immediately suck and that it might be a new contender.

I agree with that. There are cards that were broken back in the days so it does not get a chance anymore. That's unfair. Really.

[Maldur Sven Vedukor]

Well, i think WotC should do this change. Ban Aether Vial and unban Replenish.
Aether Vial is breaking the format (Lackey isn't). Replenish wouldn't change much the format... It only would make viable more decks.
This change would give Legacy more variety.

Maybe other unbannings would be good. But now repelnish is the only that comes into my mind.

[edgewalker]

Aether Vial isn't as broken as people say it is. We just had two big tournies where goblins did top 8, but suprisingly combo and better aggro decks placed over it. Goblins is good because it is quick and can play many different rolls. People are seeing it's weaknesses now and exploiting them. Personally, I think nothing should be put on but Land Tax and Replenish should come off

[C.P.]

Well, i think WotC should do this change. Ban Aether Vial and unban Replenish.
Aether Vial is breaking the format (Lackey isn't). Replenish wouldn't change much the format... It only would make viable more decks.
This change would give Legacy more variety.

Maybe other unbannings would be good. But now repelnish is the only that comes into my mind.

I think that the Vial is actually fair. Sure, it screws with counters and kills control in many ways, but it is not exaxtly format warping. The fact that decks like MUC can have decent goblins matchup supports my claim. The format is healthy.

The reason that I'm bringing the unbannings up is just because I think there are some cards that does not deserve to be banned. Not because I think the format is warped by goblins and we need an answer.

Even though I think Wizards did a good job on making the initial banned list, they are human and they can make mistakes.
Berserk was on the list forever. Now you can play four. Is it breaking the format? How about Fork or Recall? Ivory Tower or Juran orb?

Times change, and some card gets weaker. I just want to make sure that we play with as many as card as possible.

[blitz]

replenish, land tax, entomb, earthcraft, mind over matter, hermit druid...

Yeah, I could see those in legacy and not being broken. Powerful? Maybe. Broken? Not really.

[MattH]

replenish, land tax, entomb, earthcraft, mind over matter, hermit druid...

Yeah, I could see those in legacy and not being broken. Powerful? Maybe. Broken? Not really.

One thing which virtually NO ONE ever brings up when suggesting multiple unbannings is the possibility of using more than one of these cards in the same deck. Replenish, Entomb, and Hermit Druid all have enough overlapping graveyard-based synergy that they really need to be seriously investigated in pairs or even all three at once. This is why I do not expect the DCI to unban more than one of these at a time. As a community, we should really pick which one of these three we feel is the safest, and ask for that one card to be unbanned.

(Actually we'll probably get Tax and MoMa back and then they won't want to unban anything else for a good long while, but this is something to keep in mind for the NEXT go round.)

This first came to my attention when someone - I think it was IBA - wanted to unban Grim Monolith and Mind Twist.

[Xero]

Well, IBA wanted to unban Oath of Druids :confused: If only one card could be unbanned, I would choose Land Tax. Mind over Matter wouldn't impact the format, so having it be banned dosen't actually change anything. Land Tax, however, could be used in a few decks.

[C.P.]

One thing which virtually NO ONE ever brings up when suggesting multiple unbannings is the possibility of using more than one of these cards in the same deck. Replenish, Entomb, and Hermit Druid all have enough overlapping graveyard-based synergy that they really need to be seriously investigated in pairs or even all three at once. This is why I do not expect the DCI to unban more than one of these at a time. As a community, we should really pick which one of these three we feel is the safest, and ask for that one card to be unbanned.



Good Point. Did not realized that those three has a good synergy. I do not expect more than one card to be unbanned. MoM is probably the safest one, while Land Tax and Replenish is next on power level and will see some play.

I'm still not sure about Earthcraft and Entomb. They are potantially too dangerous even though we cannot break it right now.

[Cait_Sith]

Land Tax would suck in every deck except WW, where it would be okayish, and Enchantress, where it could be disgusting early on. I could foresee some Turboland/Zuran Orb/Lands! etc. style deck abusing this card, but I don't see format warping.

Mind over Matter just seems like it could be used in some evil Lockdown/Prison deck, so I would stick with the safe Land Tax.

[Cavius The Great]

Mind Over Matter isn't completely broken like Dream Halls would be if it were unbanned. Without Dream Halls, Mind Over Matter is slightly less playable. I remember in the late 90's, Extended decks played Dream Halls to fuel out a MoM more efficiently. Without Dream Halls, it's slightly more harder to cast at 2UUUU, since they're no cards like Tolarian Academy in this format. You can do much more broken things with Dream Halls anyways which makes MoM less of a format defining card.

[C.P.]

@Mind over Matter

Sure enough, the card is very powerful. if you have this card and stasis + mine out, it means game over. But being 6cc card, it is less than playable in most decks.

Turbo Stasis can use it, but the deck is not very viable as it is. putting 6 mana enchantment in the deck will make it even slower.

Spring Tide can abuse the card. if this hits the board, you never fizzle. But the thing, is you almost never fizzle in the deck anyway. It will help the deck for sure, but most of the time it is just a overkill card.

Enchnatress can have fun with the card as well. I butil a U/G enchatress where you get a land with mana enchatment, and generate large amount of mana for the win. But even in here the cards is less than broken, It's combo matchup is not very impressive, and the combo itself is slower than tendrils variant.

Sure, there must be other things you can do with the card, but the fact that you have to pay 2UUUU and do whatever you do will limit how good it is. It is an interesting card to have around, for sure.

[mogote]

@Mind over Matter
[...]
Spring Tide can abuse the card. if this hits the board, you never fizzle. But the thing, is you almost never fizzle in the deck anyway. It will help the deck for sure, but most of the time it is just a overkill card.
When a Spring Tide player is in a position to spend 6 mana and 2 cards to untap his 1st Island he should win anyway. In this situation it doesn't seem better than Peregrine Drake which sees absolutely zero play.

Regarding Replenish:
What is everyone afraid?
Shouldn't it lose to aggro-control like Threshold or Hanni-Fish (MD Jötun Grunt!), maybe blue-based control as well?
And most combo decks should either be faster or be able to win in response to Replenish on the stack. Iggy Pop can even play MD-hate like Leyline of the Void.
And a good matchup against aggro wouldn't be surprising for a combo-deck à la Pandeburst but nobody seems to complain that aggro has a bad matchup against most combo in general.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Land Tax would suck in every deck except WW, where it would be okayish, and Enchantress, where it could be disgusting early on.

Land Tax sucks in Enchantress. Bad synergy with Exploration, and really bad synergy with the "cast a bunch of spells with a bunch of mana" strategy.