[Deck] Suicidal Storm

[Radley]

Suicidal Storm

lands
2 underground sea
4 polluted delta
4 flooded strand
3 island
2 swamp

spells
4 lotus petal
3 ill-gotten gains
3 tendrils of agony
3 impulse
4 brainstorm
4 cabal ritual
4 dark ritual
3 intuition
4 mox diamond
1 wipe away
4 cruel bargain
4 infernal contract
4 mystical tutor

Cards choices explained:
lotus petal: possibility to combo off at turn 1
ill-gotten gains: recycles the rituals
tendrils of agony: win condition
impulse: card digger, also useful in middle of combo
brainstorm: draw card, also useful in middle of combo
cabal ritual: part of combo
dark ritual: part of combo
intuition: search for rituals or IGG to recycle the rituals
mox diamond: chosen over lion's eye diamond because it adds to thresholds. chrome mox might be better
wipe away. permanent sweeper
Cruel bargain and infernal contract: part of combo
Mystical tutor: search for anything you need for combo(ritual, IGG, intuition or tendrils)

This deck can basically kill your opponent at first turn. In second turn more frequently. What yo do is use rituals or use mana and cast rituals or infernal contract/cruel bargain and draw cards and the cycle will continue till you just have enough storm count.

Against red decks with direct damage, this deck is an autolose. I already have a solution to this problem but i have to test it to be sure.

[Cavius The Great]

How is this deck any better than Iggy Pop or Contract Tendrils? This deck you posted is basically an sub-par conglomerate of both.

[Radley]

Why? You tried it yet? Don't post message and ridicule someone without any constructive criticism. Get the f out of my thread please.

I don't know about that contract thingy deck, But i know iggy pop.

This deck is already tested against goblin deck, I don't cast the draw 4 cards until my mana is really ok. I won turn 3 on game 1 and won turn 2 on game 2. Against elves with combo, I won turn 3 and turn 2 on game 2. Against mono blue control, I won turn 3 on game 1 then won at turn 1 on game 2, my opponent was like "so early on turn 1? GG" then logged out.

This post is innappropriate for any part of this forum. Every person has the right to post where they feel their input is useful. By creating a new deck which is similar to established tier 1 decks, you will have to consider the question "why should I play this over X?" Your response is flaming, and will not be tolerated. ~Nightmare

[Nydaeli]

Why? You tried it yet? Don't post message and ridicule someone without any constructive criticism. Get the f out of my thread please.


Isn't it a little early for this thread to devolve into a stupid flamewar? And he does have a point. Could you explain what advantages this deck has over other combo decks?

Leaving out Lion's Eye Diamond is a huge mistake. Next to Dark Ritual it's probably the best piece of acceleration available to you. It combos really well with tutors, or with Contracts. You need four.

You may also want to consider Meditate and Diminishing Returns.

[Radley]

Isn't it a little early for this thread to devolve into a stupid flamewar? And he does have a point. Could you explain what advantages this deck has over other combo decks?

Leaving out Lion's Eye Diamond is a huge mistake. Next to Dark Ritual it's probably the best piece of acceleration available to you. It combos really well with tutors, or with Contracts. You need four.

You may also want to consider Meditate and Diminishing Returns.

I left out LED because i usually got stuck in middle of combo with it because i always have lots of cards in hand. I put mox diamond for it because i can only play 1 land in a turn anyway and the land that goes in the graveyard helps to get threshold for cabal ritual.

I have considered meditate but 1 turn is such a big loss if you don't really want to combo off ut wants to draw cards. And it is blue, Dark ritual can't cast it, just in case you only got only black mana floating.

With diminishing returns, it's quite random, you might accidentally remove the kill card.

This deck is good because you got lots of draw cards and tutors(intuition, and mystical tutor)

And please don't compare this deck with contract deck with 0 casting creatures because that deck sucks, imagine putting creatures just for blocking or sacrificing for culling of the weak, it never works well.

[iOWN]

This deck is good because you got lots of draw cards and tutors(intuition, and mystical tutor)

And please don't compare this deck with contract deck with 0 casting creatures because that deck sucks, imagine putting creatures just for blocking or sacrificing for culling of the weak, it never works well.

That deck sucks? Seriously, SI was a well-tested deck optimized for early, consistant kills. Not to offend, but it seems like you've barely even played your deck, and none of your posts have justified anything you claim. Maybe you should play with the decks that you are putting down before you go and shoot them off, because I can guarantee that you would find them much more satisfying and perhaps would help you brainstorm of ways to improve your own list.

And if you want to be taken seriously, here are two tips: Relent on the flames, please, and if somone makes a post that you don't like either ignore it or prove them wrong. Secondly, spend more time writing and thinking out your posts. The original post pretty much is a list with a bunch of poorly explained card choices, no match results (or even theoretical descriptions), and doesn't even give a basic strategy for what your deck tries to do (or aside from the obvious, how you typically combo off).

[Radley]

Nice, and the flaming goes and on and on.. and on.. and on..

previous flamers, i'll just leave you babbling nonsense.

And please give some constructive criticism, not those "this deck sucks. end of story" bs

I know i haven't tested this deck thoroughly. You will not see in any of my posts that i have tested this thoroughly so don't tell me what i already know, over and over again. And if you wanna know anything, like the strategy of this deck, please do ask kindly, i'm not posting this for you to be satisfied, I'm just sharing some of the decks i made. Be angry to those who leech from ideas and not sharing any, I'm sharing the best things i know.

Well, for the strategy of this deck:

Invest mana or any mana sources then draw your way to 10 storms. Ill-gotten gains speeds that up by recycling your rituals. Don't worry about getting stuck when you draw, every card in this deck leads to more draw and mana sources. Mystical tutors, and intuition also helps out when you already need tendrils, although most of the time i never needed to use those for tendrils, can use those for rituals or whatever you need.

[Rastadon]

Stop being a retard...It's up to you to stop acting like a 12 year old and listen.

You're only helping him. If he thinks he's being attacked you're only making it worse by insulting him.

But Radley, they've got good points. Some background information would be good. Why do you like this deck? How did it evolve? What decks is it good against? Why is this deck good against deck X? What are some problems with the deck? But most importantly to your specific case, how is it different from other combo decks like Iggy Pop or Spanish Inquisition?

[Radley]

You're only helping him. If he thinks he's being attacked you're only making it worse by insulting him.

But Radley, they've got good points. Some background information would be good. Why do you like this deck? How did it evolve? What decks is it good against? Why is this deck good against deck X? What are some problems with the deck? But most importantly to your specific case, how is it different from other combo decks like Iggy Pop or Spanish Inquisition?

Hmmm.. how the deck evolved? basically, i was asking myself how to get alot of storm count in 1 turn with black, first thing that popped out of my head is draw at least 2 cards or more for 1 card(i used the gatherer to search for black cards that lets me draw, the first card that popped in my head really was skeletal scrying but it's cc is high) and basically, to do that i need mana sources. Dark ritual and cabal ritual is the first choice really. Culling the weak was a weak choice for me because i already used it and it was very traumatic. I needed more draw cards so i used blue. I really like intuition so i used it. It helps to threshold, helps to find IGG, rituals, and tendrils. I used LED but it caused me to get stuck sometimes because it doesn't help in early game where i really need mana(I only find it to be useful only when i get IGG in hand) so i used mox diamond instead. Infernal tutor was in but removed it for mystical tutor because i can't get an empty hand without LED.


I don't have someone to play with irl, well, i can play with my bro but he's not a good player.

[Bane of the Living]

Nice to see you started your thread. If Ive learnt anything from playing countless combo decks its that your deck needs to have one of these elements..

A) Combo protection
You need Duress or FoW. You need Defense Grid or Xantid Swarm. Maybe Orims Chant. Any of these. All you have is one Wipe Away which doesnt do anything to counter magic.

B) Inane first turn wins. If your playing 0 protection such as your deck, you'd better be winning the turn you pick up your cards. Anything could spell distruction for you, including FoW on turn 0.

You could easily fit Xantid due to all your moxen/lotus and fetchlands to find a trop. Or you could play Grid to stay in color and have a WMD against Solidarity.

[Iranon]

Radley, if honest criticism by people who know more about the format than either of us offends you, I'm not sure what you expect to receive from this board.

Being passionate about one's creations is a good thing, but from my perspective you have been nothing but abrasive to people who tried to offer constructive feedback and were knocking neither you nor your deck.
And if that happens to be negative, that is no reason to feel put down - after all, other people might have put considerable time and effort in a similar concept already, and I'm talking dozens, possibly hundreds of hours.

Since you try to have as little interaction with an opponent as possible, a bit of information concerning your goldfishes would help if you don't have a test partner. Against a passive opponent, what are your percentages of turn 1 to 5 wins?
A few common roadblocks are easy to simulate without a test partner - assuming you get hit by a Duress or Chalice for 0 turn 1, or a Hymn turn 2 and giving information about how far they set you back isn't really expected but would be nice, but we need the data against a true goldfish at the least.

In addition to your goldfish results, it would also be nice to have a few of your speculations on any soft benefits or drawbacks you deck might have over established Tendrils decks. For example:

Iggy Pop, while comparatively slow (around turn 3), can often get a guaranteed win that doesn't depend on depend on further draws through a self-supporting loop. Some versions also use Leyline of the Void + IGG as an incredibly effective disruption tool to set up a slower win.
On the downside, it is ill-equipped to go off through graveyard hate or on a gamble.

The main selling point of Spanish Inquisition (in the 'Quick Death' thread) is raw speed - turn 1 wins should be the most common. The free creatures can also stall if needed but that only compensates the fact that you're tossing away life points like there's no tomorrow. Furthermore, it is quite vulnerable to disruption.

TES has little resemblence to your list but remains relevant. It doesn't rely on the graveyard and has the flexibility to combo out around hate without adressing it directly. The speed is somewhere between the other two decks but hard to pinpoint - Empty the Warrens doesn't kill immediately but most decks have no way of dealing with the goblin horde. It is very unforgiving though.


Without such information (goldfish overview, and comments about perceived problems or amazing resilence against common combo hate), giving qualified feedback is much harder.



So far, I agree with most other posters - you put yourself under pressure by running Contracts, yet you eschew some the most efficient acceleration pieces in Culling the Weak and Lion's Eye Diamon. Do you have a chance at all against, say, Red Thresh?

Your high land count to fix the lack of strong acceleration pieces will be deader mid-combo than the 0-mana creatures of SI because they don't even provide storm. If you consider Mystical Tutor despite its card disadvantage, I can't think of a reason to dismiss diabolic intent and culling the weak (and the minimum number of creatures to run them).

Now I could be wrong. If you give us some more information about how the deck works, how quickly it wins and so on, I might be forced to eat my words, and might be able to give some more helpful feedback. Until then, this is the best I can do.

[Radley]

Radley, if honest criticism by people who know more about the format than either of us offends you, I'm not sure what you expect to receive from this board.

Being passionate about one's creations is a good thing, but from my perspective you have been nothing but abrasive to people who tried to offer constructive feedback and were knocking neither you nor your deck.
And if that happens to be negative, that is no reason to feel put down - after all, other people might have put considerable time and effort in a similar concept already, and I'm talking dozens, possibly hundreds of hours.


TES has little resemblence to your list but remains relevant. It doesn't rely on the graveyard and has the flexibility to combo out around hate without adressing it directly. The speed is somewhere between the other two decks but hard to pinpoint - Empty the Warrens doesn't kill immediately but most decks have no way of dealing with the goblin horde. It is very unforgiving though.


Now I could be wrong. If you give us some more information about how the deck works, how quickly it wins and so on, I might be forced to eat my words, and might be able to give some more helpful feedback. Until then, this is the best I can do.

honest criticism like "your deck is subpar. period" from experienced player?" How would that help me?

I'm looking for replies like bane's. He doesn't include any insults and he doesn't ridicule the poster or make them stupid. Now, if your post was like that, it would be half shorter than your original post.

About graveyard hate. I can win against them, I don't depend on graveyard that much not like IGGY pop. In my previous post i said i used mox diamond because it helps for threshold, and it doesn't mean i need thresh.

I have tested it against goblin, they're not fast enough, but that's only 2 games. players in MWS logs out when i'm at the middle of the combo, especially if it's on turn 1.

About MUC, If they counter my first spell, then i don't lose life, if they let me cast and cast, i know they're waiting for my killer card and counter it with a force of will or something so i invest more mana and get more backup. I've played against MUc, first game i won on turn 3. and in game 2 i won turn 1. My opponent was like "so early on turn 1?" then logged out.

I don't get stuck with my land high counts or high mana source, I got alot of draw cards and I never got stuck. I tell, you, the casting will just go on and on and on once you've invested mana till you get enough storms for tendrils.

Go on and try it in MWS if you don't believe me. I'm aware this deck is autolose against red with direct dmg spells.

bane, I can't believe I forgot to mention defense grid in my previous posts, I'm already considering it so my deck has something against red direct dmg and FoW. Fow might also be included, at least 3 so you could intuition it before using tendrils or just use mystical tutor. I also considered orim's chant, might be better than force of will really, well, it should be better. Xantid swarm is too slow, i would wait for a turn for it to be effective, it might even get PINGed by mogg fanatic or gempalm incinerator. Or STPed, bottomline is it can easily be easily killed.

so the deck will be +1 orim's chant (tempted to go 3 but it's so inconvinient), +1 tundra -1 brainstorm, -1island. don't worry about orim's cahnt's casting cost, i got lotus petal, and mox diamond.

[kicks_422]

About MUC, If they counter my first spell, then i don't lose life, if they let me cast and cast, i know they're waiting for my killer card and counter it with a force of will or something so i invest more mana and get more backup. I've played against MUc, first game i won on turn 3. and in game 2 i won turn 1. My opponent was like "so early on turn 1?" then logged out.

Go on and try it in MWS if you don't believe me. I'm aware this deck is autolose against red with direct dmg spells.

Xantid swarm is too slow, i would wait for a turn for it to be effective, it might even get PINGed by mogg fanatic or gempalm incinerator. Or STPed, bottomline is it can easily be easily killed.


Then I'm guessing the MUC you played against wasn't optimal, or was just unlucky. I could see how this can beat that deck, but in the long-run, MUC will do better, especially since you don't have protection.

How is this autolose against Burn, when you claim to win consistently from Turns 1-3?

Xantid Swarm is a vital component of TES. So what if it gets pinged by Fanatic or Incinerator, it's not like you need it against Goblins anyway. Having the opponent keep anti-creature spells in their deck against a combo deck is still nice, so don't worry about that.

[Radley]

Then I'm guessing the MUC you played against wasn't optimal, or was just unlucky. I could see how this can beat that deck, but in the long-run, MUC will do better, especially since you don't have protection.

How is this autolose against Burn, when you claim to win consistently from Turns 1-3?

Xantid Swarm is a vital component of TES. So what if it gets pinged by Fanatic or Incinerator, it's not like you need it against Goblins anyway. Having the opponent keep anti-creature spells in their deck against a combo deck is still nice, so don't worry about that.

The MUC i played i against FoW me but i still carried on doing my combo. Counter one of my spells until he runs out of spells, when they tap their mana to draw at early start of game then the more safer my combo is.

Auto lose against red because i go down upto 1 life, although the addition of orim's chant makes the deck not an autolose against burn.

About xantid swarm: It has no synergy with this dck, if my combo is ready and don't have xantid swarm in play, then i'd have to search for it and things like that and wait till next turn so i can do the combo without interruption. And it's prone to removal so when it dies, a turn is wasted. But if i use orim's chant or defense grid in MD, I can try to combo, if the opponent let's me use dark rituals and counter my infernal contract, then i don't lose life and i can try to combo next turn again, although i wouldn't cast a spell if my opponent has 2 untapped island. I'll just use my brainstorms, intuition, and impulse to build my hand and get orim's chant. I'll put 3 more Orim's chant for my sb or maybe defense grid.

[Rood]

Suicidal Storm
Against red decks with direct damage, this deck is an autolose. I already have a solution to this problem but i have to test it to be sure.

If this becomes a problem for you because I know some versions of Threshold run red splash also which has direct damage you can always splash 1-2 Scrublands and 4x Angel's Grace in the board which then you can draw many off of you're draw 4 spells because you could also go below 1 Life :D

[Radley]

If this becomes a problem for you because I know some versions of Threshold run red splash also which has direct damage you can always splash 1-2 Scrublands and 4x Angel's Grace in the board which then you can draw many off of you're draw 4 spells because you could also go below 1 Life :D

OMG! i never know that card existed. That makes the deck really effective now.. F'in hell! Split second can't be countered right? Thanks dude, i think 1 is enough because i got 4 mystical tutor.

so the current deck:
Suicidal Storm

lands
2 underground sea
4 polluted delta
4 flooded strand
3 island
2 swamp

spells
4 lotus petal
3 ill-gotten gains
3 tendrils of agony
3 impulse
3 brainstorm
4 cabal ritual
4 dark ritual
3 intuition
4 mox diamond
1 wipe away
4 cruel bargain
4 infernal contract
4 mystical tutor
1 Angel's grace

[vigilante]

The problem I see developing here is that on one hand, you want a combo deck that aims for ridiculously quick wins, but on the other hand, you want to maindeck/sideboard protection for the combo (ie. Defense Grid, Xantid Swarm, Orim's Chant, Angel's Grace etc.). Drawing into that protection, either pre-combo or mid-combo, is going to hinder your ability to go off.

You've got to decide what you want -- a blisteringly fast combo that outraces disruption and hate (Cruel Tendrils/Contract Tendrils), or a slower combo that can fight through disruption or has disruption of it's own (Solidarity or Iggy-Pop). Trying to do both, as Suicide Tendrils seems to be heading towards, won't work.

[Rood]

OMG! i never know that card existed. That makes the deck really effective now.. F'in hell! Split second can't be countered right? Thanks dude, i think 1 is enough because i got 4 mystical tutor.

so the current deck:
Suicidal Storm

lands
2 underground sea
4 polluted delta
4 flooded strand
3 island
2 swamp

spells
4 lotus petal
3 ill-gotten gains
3 tendrils of agony
3 impulse
3 brainstorm
4 cabal ritual
4 dark ritual
3 intuition
4 mox diamond
1 wipe away
4 cruel bargain
4 infernal contract
4 mystical tutor
1 Angel's grace


Also -1 Delta +1 Scrubland? In case you dont happen to draw a Mox or Lotus Petal having 1x Scrubby will most certainly help you with your Angel's Grace.

[Radley]

Also -1 Delta +1 Scrubland? In case you dont happen to draw a Mox or Lotus Petal having 1x Scrubby will most certainly help you with your Angel's Grace.

I used tundra ^_^ because the all fetchlands, searches for island.


The problem I see developing here is that on one hand, you want a combo deck that aims for ridiculously quick wins, but on the other hand, you want to maindeck/sideboard protection for the combo (ie. Defense Grid, Xantid Swarm, Orim's Chant, Angel's Grace etc.). Drawing into that protection, either pre-combo or mid-combo, is going to hinder your ability to go off.

You've got to decide what you want -- a blisteringly fast combo that outraces disruption and hate (Cruel Tendrils/Contract Tendrils), or a slower combo that can fight through disruption or has disruption of it's own (Solidarity or Iggy-Pop). Trying to do both, as Suicide Tendrils seems to be heading towards, won't work.

I think this deck has both of the qualities you've just said. The point of this deck is to produce lots of mana source then play 0 casting costs and draw your way into 10 storms, so 90% you can get that angel's grace with the help of mystical tutor or intuition then Ill-gotten gains or probably, just draw it.

i was tempted to put nefarious deck but i noticed nourishing lich already uses it and it's really inconvinient for me because i can't tutor it and it costs too high.

I played in MWS again. Combo went of 1st turn against MUC(or i don't know because i won too fast) then 2nd game i won at turn 2 ^_^. I can't play proper in MWS because most of the time i'm fighting against newbies. And most of the time, i don't know what i'm fighting against because i win too early so I don't know what to put the games i played against in MWS.

[vigilante]

Yes, but do you see the point I'm making? If you're playing those protection pieces to ensure your deck has some measure of resilience, it'll slow the deck down, or at the very least erode its consistency.

Playing Mystical Tutor for Angel's Grace means you've spent UW (plus probably a turn and a draw step) where you could have been using your resources to further your combo, not protect it. That Mystical Tutor could have fetched a Dark Ritual, or an Ill-Gotten Gains, or a Tendrils. Instead, you've used it on a card that does nothing other than keep you alive -- and keep in mind that if you're planning to combo off so quickly (turn 1-2 seems to be your goal), your opponent will rarely be in a position to kill you before you kill them. Without Culling the Weak and Lion's Eye Diamond in your deck, you're completely reliant on your Rituals (Dark, and to a lesser degree, Cabal) and Lotus Petals for acceleration. I'm wary of including Mox Diamond in the acceleration category because the deck seems to run far too few lands for it to be consistent (although I admit I haven't tested the deck as yet. I have, however, thoroughly tested Cruel Tendrils). All of this adds up to: you should be using those Mystical Tutors and Intuitions to dig up Rituals, not combo protection. If you are (searching for protection), you're slowing yourself down because you need those Rituals for your quick turn 1-2 kills.

Iggy-Pop has the luxury of being able to play some protection because it spends more time setting up than your deck can. You can't be winning on turn 1-2 while at the same time tutoring/drawing into ways to protect your combo before you go off.

[Radley]

Yes, but do you see the point I'm making? If you're playing those protection pieces to ensure your deck has some measure of resilience, it'll slow the deck down, or at the very least erode its consistency.

Playing Mystical Tutor for Angel's Grace means you've spent UW (plus probably a turn and a draw step) where you could have been using your resources to further your combo, not protect it. That Mystical Tutor could have fetched a Dark Ritual, or an Ill-Gotten Gains, or a Tendrils. Instead, you've used it on a card that does nothing other than keep you alive -- and keep in mind that if you're planning to combo off so quickly (turn 1-2 seems to be your goal), your opponent will rarely be in a position to kill you before you kill them. Without Culling the Weak and Lion's Eye Diamond in your deck, you're completely reliant on your Rituals (Dark, and to a lesser degree, Cabal) and Lotus Petals for acceleration. I'm wary of including Mox Diamond in the acceleration category because the deck seems to run far too few lands for it to be consistent (although I admit I haven't tested the deck as yet. I have, however, thoroughly tested Cruel Tendrils). All of this adds up to: you should be using those Mystical Tutors and Intuitions to dig up Rituals, not combo protection. If you are (searching for protection), you're slowing yourself down because you need those Rituals for your quick turn 1-2 kills.

Iggy-Pop has the luxury of being able to play some protection because it spends more time setting up than your deck can. You can't be winning on turn 1-2 while at the same time tutoring/drawing into ways to protect your combo before you go off.

I get what you're saying, but 1 card doesn't slow this deck, I wouldn't cast it against a non burn opponent so that UW won't happen alot. I draw alot and as you noticed, I got lots of mana sources so if i needed protect myself, it doesn't slow this deck,

[vigilante]

Can you give us some idea of how these turn 1-2 kills play out? I'm interested to see how much of your acceleration you need to have available for you to pull these fast kills off.

I've found early kills with Cruel Tendrils to be heavily reliant on Lion's Eye Diamond and Culling the Weak (with a 0cc creature, of course). Culling the Weak in particular is extremely important, as it allows you to play a 'BBB: draw 4' spell and have B left over for another Ritual effect to keep the chain going. As you're using neither Diamond nor CtW, I'm having trouble seeing how you can generate enough mana to play multiple draw effects in the same turn (that is, without having 3 or 4 Dark Rituals in hand, or being extremely lucky and drawing into multiples).

[Radley]

I would like to give more details but I'm too tired, went out today with my parents because it's my birthday. So I'll play the deck later.

Culling the weak and 0 casting creature can be compared to a dark ritual, and a lotus petal. I might change impulse to serum vision because it's much easier to cast but impulse helps in digging and finding you the right card. I don't use culling the weak because I don't have 0 casting creatures and i don't intend to because it makes you rely on getting them before casting for culling the weak or diabolic intent.

Correction, I'm using mox diamond. I chose it instead of chrome mox because lands don't let me draw and every nonland card in this deck has it's purpose.

the mana that keeps the chain going are: mox diamond, lotus petal, dark ritual, cabal ritual - and in the middle of combo, you can use Ill-gotten gains to use those rituals in the graveyard. You cast those 1 casting spells to dig your library for more rituals or more lotus petal/chrome mox or for "draw four cards" card. If you don't think it's possible then I'll play it later and show the results, can't really write most of the stuffs I'm doing because I cast alot of spells and it's kinda rude to my opponent to make them wait while I list what I'm doing.

[vigilante]

If you're using MWS for your testing (which you've already said you are), just cut-and-paste the section of the game log in which you play your chain of spells....there's no need to manually write down what you're doing.



From my perspective, having tested and played Cruel Tendrils, I can guarantee that first and second turn kills require very tight management of your mana, and access to a lot of it. Without CtW and L.I. Diamond, I just can't see how you're generating enough mana to propagate a chain of 9 spells (then Tendrils), while having mana to spend on Brainstorm/Serum Visions/Impulse/Intuition along the way.


Culling the weak and 0 casting creature can be compared to a dark ritual, and a lotus petal.The difference is though that Cruel Tendrils runs Dark Rituals and Lotus Petals in addition to Ornithopters and Culling the Weak, so the chances of drawing some combination of acceleration are increased. As others have already pointed out in this thread, the other significant difference is that Dark Ritual/Lotus Petal can't block Goblin Lackeys (and other problematic creatures) while you set up.....0cc creatures can (and frequently do).


I don't use culling the weak because I don't have 0 casting creatures and i don't intend to because it makes you rely on getting them before casting for culling the weak or diabolic intent.Having 10-11 Occ creatures means the chances of a creatureless hand are minimal. After firing off a few BBB: Draw 4s, the chances of having a creature are even greater. At the very least, if you don't see a creature to sacrifice to Culling (or Diabolic Intent), you can imprint it on a Chrome Mox.

[Jaynel]

The 0cc guys can be utilized in a variety of ways - early game blockers, fuel for Culling the Weak, and also as a cheap +1 Storm.

I also feel that LED is essential to a Draw4 based deck for the reasons Vigilante stated. It's difficult to maintain enough mana after casting a Draw4 sometimes even with decks that run LED; I can't even begin imagine the difficulties this deck must face.

I'm a bit leery of Mox Diamond. You want to be hitting most of your early game land drops, right?

Furthermore, compare your colored cards to your land cards: you run more than twice as many cards that could be imprinted on Chrome. I'd feel more comfortable running a card I can reliably cast (Mox Diamond can't even be played for +1 Storm without discarding a land) and doesn't eat up a turn 1-3 land drop, regardless of fueling Threshold or not.

Good luck though. Don't let criticism stifle the innovation.

[Radley]

If you're using MWS for your testing (which you've already said you are), just cut-and-paste the section of the game log in which you play your chain of spells....there's no need to manually write down what you're doing.



From my perspective, having tested and played Cruel Tendrils, I can guarantee that first and second turn kills require very tight management of your mana, and access to a lot of it. Without CtW and L.I. Diamond, I just can't see how you're generating enough mana to propagate a chain of 9 spells (then Tendrils), while having mana to spend on Brainstorm/Serum Visions/Impulse/Intuition along the way.

The difference is though that Cruel Tendrils runs Dark Rituals and Lotus Petals in addition to Ornithopters and Culling the Weak, so the chances of drawing some combination of acceleration are increased. As others have already pointed out in this thread, the other significant difference is that Dark Ritual/Lotus Petal can't block Goblin Lackeys (and other problematic creatures) while you set up.....0cc creatures can (and frequently do).

Having 10-11 Occ creatures means the chances of a creatureless hand are minimal. After firing off a few BBB: Draw 4s, the chances of having a creature are even greater. At the very least, if you don't see a creature to sacrifice to Culling (or Diabolic Intent), you can imprint it on a Chrome Mox.

If you notice, there's alot of 1 casting cost and 0 CC, and I only use dark ritual or cabal ritual for the "draw 4 cards" cards, and intuition if needed.

[Rood]

Well to increase you're ability for your Cabal Rituals, -3 Impulse +3 Mental Note? Mental Note will save you mana and can help your Cabal rituals very well.

[Radley]

Ok this is the logs from the last game i played. Changed my opponent's name to opponent. Me is Me.

The opponent plays Wooded Foothills from Hand
<opponent> pass
<me> draws a card
me plays Polluted Delta from Hand
<Player> end turn
opponent sacrifices Wooded Foothills
opponent's life total is now 19 (-1)
opponent puts Badlands into play from Library
opponent taps Badlands
opponent puts Forgotten Cave to Graveyard from Hand
opponent draws a card
opponent untaps his/her permanents
It is now turn 2 (The opponent)
It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
opponent draws a card
opponent plays Bayou from Hand
opponent taps Badlands
opponent taps Bayou
opponent plays Hymn to Tourach from Hand
me discards a card at random: Mox Diamond
me discards a card at random: Cruel Bargain
opponent sacrifices Hymn to Tourach
<opponent> Pass
<me> eot
me taps Polluted Delta
me puts Polluted Delta to Graveyard from Play
me is looking its Library...
me puts Underground Sea into play from Library
me shuffles library
me stops looking its Library...
me taps Underground Sea
me puts Brainstorm to Graveyard from Hand
me is looking top 3 cards of its Library...
me draws a card
me stops looking its Library...
me untaps his/her permanents
me draws a card
me plays Island from Hand
me taps Island
me untaps Island
It is now turn 3 (opponent)
It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
me draws a card
me plays Mox Diamond from Hand
me discards Swamp

third turn
<me> end turn
opponent untaps his/her permanents
It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
opponent draws a card
opponent taps Bayou
opponent untaps Bayou
opponent taps Bayou
opponent puts Barren Moor to Graveyard from Hand
opponent draws a card
opponent plays Bloodstained Mire from Hand
opponent sacrifices Bloodstained Mire
opponent life total is now 18 (-1)
opponent is looking its Library...
opponent puts Taiga into play from Library
opponent shuffles library
opponent stops looking its Library...
opponent shuffles library
opponent taps Badlands
opponent taps Taiga
opponent plays Life from the Loam from Hand
opponent puts Barren Moor into play from Graveyard
opponent puts Forgotten Cave into play from Graveyard
opponent puts Bloodstained Mire into play from Graveyard
opponent puts Forgotten Cave to Hand from Play
opponent puts Barren Moor to Hand from Play
opponent puts Bloodstained Mire to Hand from Play
opponent sacrifices Life from the Loam
<opponent> Pass
<me> eot
me taps Underground Sea
me taps Island
me plays Impulse from Hand
me is looking top 4 cards of its Library...
me draws a card
me stops looking its Library...
me taps Mox Diamond
me plays Brainstorm from Hand
me puts Impulse to Graveyard from Play
me is looking top 3 cards of its Library...
me puts card to Hand from Library
me stops looking its Library...
me puts Brainstorm to Graveyard from Play

My third turn(player is me, got tired of editting)
me untaps his/her permanents
me draws a card
Player plays Tundra from Hand
Player taps Mox Diamond
Player plays Dark Ritual from Hand
Player puts Dark Ritual to Graveyard from Play
Player plays Cabal Ritual from Hand
<Player> 6 black floating
Player puts Cabal Ritual to Graveyard from Play
Player taps Island
<Player> 4 black mana flaoting
Player plays Intuition from Hand
<opponent> you can use the little buttons on the left to indicate mana count and storm count
Player puts Intuition to Graveyard from Play
<Player> hmm wer r those buttons
<opponent> below your icon
<Player> 3 storm 4 mana that is
Player is looking its Library...
Player puts Ill-Gotten Gains into play from Library
Player puts Ill-Gotten Gains into play from Library
Player puts Ill-Gotten Gains into play from Library
Player shuffles library
Player stops looking its Library...
Player puts Ill-Gotten Gains to Hand from Play
Player puts Ill-Gotten Gains to Graveyard from Play
Player puts Ill-Gotten Gains to Graveyard from Play
Player taps Tundra
Player plays Ill-Gotten Gains from Hand -4 storm
Player puts Cabal Ritual into play from Graveyard
<The Atog Lord> Ok
Player puts Dark Ritual into play from Graveyard
Player puts Ill-Gotten Gains into play from Graveyard
Player puts Ill-Gotten Gains to RFG from Play
Player puts Ill-Gotten Gains to Hand from Play
Player puts Dark Ritual to Hand from Play -5 storm
Player puts Brainstorm to Graveyard from Hand
Player puts Cabal Ritual to Hand from Play -6
Player plays Dark Ritual from Hand -7
Player plays Cabal Ritual from Hand -8
Player puts Dark Ritual to Graveyard from Play
Player puts Cabal Ritual to Graveyard from Play
Player plays Ill-Gotten Gains from Hand -9
Player puts Dark Ritual into play from Graveyard
Player puts Cabal Ritual into play from Graveyard
Player puts Ill-Gotten Gains into play from Graveyard
Player puts Ill-Gotten Gains to RFG from Play
Player puts Ill-Gotten Gains to Hand from Play
Player puts Cabal Ritual to Hand from Play
Player puts Dark Ritual to Hand from Play -10
Player plays Dark Ritual from Hand -11
Player plays Cabal Ritual from Hand -12 - storm is ok now so I'll stop counting
<The Atog Lord> ok
Player plays Ill-Gotten Gains from Hand

Player puts Dark Ritual to Graveyard from Play
Player puts Cabal Ritual to Graveyard from Play
Player puts Ill-Gotten Gains to RFG from Play
Player puts Impulse into play from Graveyard
Player puts Impulse to Graveyard from Play
Player puts Intuition into play from Graveyard
Player puts Cabal Ritual into play from Graveyard
Player puts Cruel Bargain into play from Graveyard
Player puts Cruel Bargain to Hand from Play
Player puts Intuition to Hand from Play
Player puts Cabal Ritual to Hand from Play
Player plays Cabal Ritual from Hand
Player puts Cabal Ritual to Graveyard from Play
Player taps Underground Sea
Player plays Intuition from Hand
Player puts Intuition to Graveyard from Play
Player is looking its Library...

Player puts Tendrils of Agony into play from Library
<opponent> man, that was a beating
Player puts Tendrils of Agony into play from Library
Player puts Tendrils of Agony into play

Cast it then win. This is second game. My opponent used hymn to tourach that's why it reached turn 3. The first game, i got duressed and the game lasted to turn 3.

[herbig]

My latest deck wins turn zero a majority of the time. Take a look at this goldfish:

It is now turn 1 (herbig)
It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
herbig draws 7 cards
Player draws 7 cards
<Player> are u mike herbig?
<herbig> uh, yeah
<Player> fuck that
Player Lost

[vigilante]

Radley, from what I can see in the log you posted, your deck did nothing that Iggy-Pop doesn't typically do (aside from playing Mox Diamond, which is a minor detail, and didn't have any impact on the storm count). You might as well have been playing Iggy-Pop. Seems to me that your deck plays out like a slower version of Cruel Tendrils, or a weaker version of Iggy-Pop. No offense intended -- I'm just calling it like it is, based on what I've seen.


Herbig, that's the funniest thing I've ever seen.

[Radley]

Radley, from what I can see in the log you posted, your deck did nothing that Iggy-Pop doesn't typically do (aside from playing Mox Diamond, which is a minor detail, and didn't have any impact on the storm count). You might as well have been playing Iggy-Pop. Seems to me that your deck plays out like a slower version of Cruel Tendrils, or a weaker version of Iggy-Pop. No offense intended -- I'm just calling it like it is, based on what I've seen.


Herbig, that's the funniest thing I've ever seen.

I kno, but it has possibilities to get a turn 1 win. Although i prefer to use IGGY pop because it's strategy is clear, not like mine, i almost go crazy hahaha

[n00bas4urus_r3x]

If you prefer IGGy pop because of its clear strategy, and you admit your deck doesn't have a clear strategy, then why did you start this thread?

[Radley]

If you prefer IGGy pop because of its clear strategy, and you admit your deck doesn't have a clear strategy, then why did you start this thread?

I made this thread to learn what other people think about my deck idea. Well, I posted this deck because it might improve, although the deck I'm really using is iggy pop.

But, since adding the angel's grace in the deck, it improved alot. Just fought a red green deck with burns and an army of 1 cc 2/3 creatures, almost won but my inexperience coupled with newbiness in playing on MWS made me lose. I used intuition to fetch 2 IGG(1 is in grave, and i only got 3 so i shouldn't have) and a cabal ritual, im stupid. Should've get more draw spells to dig for IGG or tendrils.

[Bryant Cook]

"Why should I play this over TES/IGGy Pop?" I've yet to see a valid arguement. I'm not trying to get you to play TES or Iggy instead I'm trying to get you to give me a descripitive reasoning on why it's better. After reading this thread I think it's nessesary for me to say this, please don't flame.

[Radley]

"Why should I play this over TES/IGGy Pop?" I've yet to see a valid arguement. I'm not trying to get you to play TES or Iggy instead I'm trying to get you to give me a descripitive reasoning on why it's better. After reading this thread I think it's nessesary for me to say this, please don't flame.

Play this deck just for the hell of it :laugh:

This deck has high possibility to combo off in turn 1. My opponent hymn to tourach me, then duress but still, i combo off at turn 3. Drawing cards makes this deck even better because you dig for the cards you need. You can also use IGGY pop strategy and wait till you can combo with it, If IGG got removed from game for some reason, you can still win by drawing and casting.

[sammiel]

counter a draw 4 or tutor and you lose. thats why TES and IGGY are both better than this deck. Also, the odds of you still being able to combo off on turn 3 after a duress and a hymn means your opponent picked the wrong card with duress, or you just got incredibly lucky.

[Radley]

counter a draw 4 or tutor and you lose. thats why TES and IGGY are both better than this deck. Also, the odds of you still being able to combo off on turn 3 after a duress and a hymn means your opponent picked the wrong card with duress, or you just got incredibly lucky.

Well, i guess i get extremely lucky always. Being consistently lucky is good or not? If they counter a draw 4 cards then you don't lose half life and you can wait next turn. Happened to me already. Every combo that is countered at early stage of combo has high possibility to stop.