[Deck] Solitaire (Enchantress)

[GoldenCid]

I've decided to pick up the Mirri's Guiles I need to build this deck (Paul Lynch's version, without the Moat, which I don't own), and I might play it if the metagame looks right at my local store.

I understand that Dredge, Maverick, and Zoo are fairly good matchups (from best to worst). ANT and Reanimator are terrible.

There's quite a bit of UW Stoneblade and RUG at my local store. Would you describe those decks as favorable, roughly even, or unfavorable for a decent (but not great) pilot (assume my hate includes maybe 3-4 Carpet of Flowers, but no City of Solitude and such)? What are the keys to those matchups?

Thanks!

I played against stoneblade, and yes carped of flowers (primaly) and city of solitude shined! City of solitude is a good card not only against control, played it against burn and boros to force them to play at sorcery speed and against merfolk to cut their vials besides their counters.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

With a little sideboarding both can become favorable.

Elephant Grass is huge against RUG. The tempo loss kills them, and if you can stick a Choke at that point it's pretty much game. Carpet of Flowers, with CoP: Red or Energy Storm can also heavily tilt this.

Choke is also solid against Blade. Here Mirri's Guile is really important. I like to bring in additional threats in this match; 2x Chokes, Sigil of the Empty Thrones, Sacred Mesa. The key is to be the aggressor in this match.

[ForlornEgoist]

@ lordofthepit:

About 3-4 posts ago I described how to combat the UW Stoneblade MU, but I'll go ahead and give you a cliffnotes:

SB Options:

City of Solitude: Shuts off their counters.
Choke: Preferrable as with exception to the random build that splashes a third color all their lands are islands.
Dovescape: Not the best option but shuts off their counters nonetheless.
Carpet of Flowers: Mana ramp.
Ground Seal: Disables Snapcaster Mage which is HIGHLY relevant. Also shuts off their Academy Ruins for the builds that run the Engineered Explosives-recursion combo. Also note that many UW Stoneblade builds sometimes run Surgical Extraction of which GS also answers.
Null Rod/Stony Silence: Shuts off EE, SDT, and all equipment.
Runed Halo/Nevermore: Shuts off Jace 2.0 which, beyond the equipment aggro, is really their only wincon.
For Wish lists: Bojuka Bog/Vexing Shusher
For GSZ lists: Vexing Shusher/Harmonic Sliver

Theres a couple of suggestions for your SB.

Against UW Stoneblade I would say its 60-40 in thier favor. All of their countersuite is relevant against, plus they have redundancy via Snapcaster. However, the MU is manageable. If you land even 1 Enchantress or SB card then usually you're well off. Of all our SB options I would say artifact hate/Choke are going to be the two most relevant.

I don't really play against Delver/RUG that much so I can't provide too many suggestions. GS/blue hate works the same as it does against Stoneblade only difference being that RUG has a faster clock. Don't be afraid to use your Oblivion Ring/Journey to Nowhere on those initial Delvers. Remember that RUG runs burn so although the initial 3-6 damage from a single Delver may not seem like much after taking several hits + burn (via Fire/Ice/)Lightning Bolt you'll die rather quickily. In terms of SB very little of what the average RUG runs will have much relevance against us. I've seen some builds SB extra counters (Spell Pierce) but beyond that nothing which majorly interacts with our deck. Of course there will be various players who metagame their SB but on average I rarely see much SBed in against us.
Overall for RUG you're gameplan in terms of SB is very similar to UW Stoneblade. GY hate (Ground Seal) with either Choke or City of Solitude being allstars. Remember, however, that RUG is a tempo deck (whereas UW Stoneblade is, imo, more aggro-control) so be aware that they put you on a much faster clock as Delver/Goyf swing in to put you within Burn range of death.

I hope this helped. If you want I can describe the SB options better but as I just posted a slightly better description previously I didn't want to repost the exact same thing.

Forlorn Egoist

[novatinhu]

Good morning, I'm new with this deck, I got all cards with a friend and I'm learning to play yet, but I have some doubts about some cards and which version is better:

At the moment I have:

The version with living wish (all cards)
The version with GSZ (all cards)
The version without both cards mentioned above

I do not have:
- Mirri's guile, so I'm playing with 2 Sylvan Library, this will hurt me a lot?

- Enlightned tutors, this will hurt me a lot?


My Meta is:

UW stoneblade
Affinity
Dredge
NicFit
Burn
Maverick

What would be the best version?

Thank you all.

[GoldenCid]

I do not have:
- Mirri's guile, so I'm playing with 2 Sylvan Library, this will hurt me a lot?

Maybe not, but we're agree that MG > SL here.





- Enlightned tutors, this will hurt me a lot?

Maybe yes, even running 4 grooves. E. Tutor allows you to search for answers or enchantress effect at instant speed spending just W, which is unvaluable.

[nedleeds]

UW stoneblade
Affinity
Dredge
NicFit
Burn
Maverick

What would be the best version?

Thank you all.

Maindeck Worship locks out all those decks, save maybe planeswalkers. So if there's truly no tendrils / painter I'd pack Worship.

[novatinhu]

Thx for the answers, i will try to buy some tutors and Worships and try it.
thx

[GoldenCid]

Except Nic Fit with liliana. You do need confinement here which already shuts down all those decks...

[guelahpapyrus]

Nic Fit's Pernicious Deed will poop on Enchantress.

[novatinhu]

Nic Fit's Pernicious Deed will poop on Enchantress.

Im an Nicfit player too, and i think this is my worst match? any advices in SB against it?

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Good morning, I'm new with this deck, I got all cards with a friend and I'm learning to play yet, but I have some doubts about some cards and which version is better:

At the moment I have:

The version with living wish (all cards)

The Living Wish builds are too slow.


The version with GSZ (all cards)
The version without both cards mentioned above

2 or 3 GSZ is the best point to start in my opinion.


I do not have:
- Mirri's guile, so I'm playing with 2 Sylvan Library, this will hurt me a lot?

Not a lot, no. Guile avoids Spellsnare and works under Confinement. You'll occasionally get to draw extra cards with Library. Most of the time they're not that functionally different.


- Enlightned tutors, this will hurt me a lot?

No, Enlightened Tutor isn't very good in the MD, as it's card disadvantage. It's a decent SB strategy, but it's not necessary.


My Meta is:

UW stoneblade
Affinity
Dredge
NicFit
Burn
Maverick

What would be the best version?

Thank you all.

You might want to MD either Karmic Justice or Aura of Silence. Both are useful against Deed; Aura is probably better against Stoneblade and Affinity.

[GoldenCid]

I don't understand why E. Tutor is not necessary!! You play 8 Enchantress effects + Silver bullets, what better than 6 tutors to get all of them??

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

GSZ which isn't card disadvantage and curves into a turn 2 Enchantress, unlike E. Tutor.

[GoldenCid]

GSZ which isn't card disadvantage and curves into a turn 2 Enchantress, unlike E. Tutor.

but you only can tutor for enchantress effects and no silver bullets, for 3 mana and at sorcery speed...

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Well the sorcery speed is pretty irrelevant since you can't affect the board state at instant speed anyway.

And the silver bullet strategy is really only good against combo. And by good, in this instance, I really mean that it's one of the few ways to stand a chance against combo. It still might not be worth it.

[da lynch mob]

guile is miles better than sylvan. sylvan is not a functional replacemnt for guile because of solitary. guile triggers during your upkeep, sylvan trigers during your draw phase. with solitary in play you can not use sylvan for the card filtration

[caiomarcos]

Last Sunday I played in a local 19-man tourney with this list:

2 Serra's Sanctum
4 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Savannah
1 Taiga
7 Forest
4 Plains

4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Sterling Grove
4 Elephant Grass
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
3 Solitary Confinement
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Mirri's Guile
2 Replenish
1 Moat
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Runed Halo
1 Exploration
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 Words of War

SB:
2 Choke
2 Ground Seal
1 Lignify
1 Stony Silence
1 Aura of Silence
1 Nevermore
1 Runed Halo
1 Karmic Justice
1 Dovescape
1 Blood Moon
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Replenish
1 Story Circle


It's the exact same list I that I played another small tourny one month ago. I was late so I just grabed the deckbox with the exact same cards and give it a go, once more.

Last month I wasn't really successful, going 2-2, losing to stuff I think I wasn't supposed to lose, like Zoo. This time was different, I would only drop a game during the top 4 match, against AdN.

1st round vs. UW Stoneblade:

1st game I was playing very carefully and dropping baits but pretty much everything I played went through, the opponent didn't really have much game without its counters, Stoneforge and his sword alone is not a real threat agains Enchantress.

I sided in a couple of Chokes and one Aura of Silence, maybe Stony Silence, but I'm not sure.
Game two I mull to six, for a Savannah + Wild Growth hand. Of course he had the turn one Wasteland, but I was able to topdeck the right lands then again start playing carefully, but now my first tries get countered (a 1st turn accel. and one sterling grove) but pretty soon I get rolling with a couple of enchantress effects and start cluttering my board, gettin ready for the lockout dropping a Choke and getting it through, but unexpectedly I see Hibernation(!) by the end of that turn and I have to discard like 15 cards. For a few turns already my opponent was telepathing Surgical Extraction so even though I could fill the grave for a next turn Replenish, I made sure only to discard "irrelevant" stuff. Not surprisingly Choke got Extracted and he started his game, but as Enchantress does, in two turns I had all played out again and closed it with a Replenish, getting me up to 4 groves. Tutoring power and infinite protection means game. 2x0

2nd Round vs. Burn

I had no idea what I was facing, but a turn one Goblin Guide said it all. I had the confinement in my hand already and had to drop it even before playing an enchantress, since I was at 5 life already. I had to be careful for a couple of turns until I hit my second enchantress, thanks to Mirri's Guile I was able to find it and that was it, that confinement wasn't going anywhere.
Game two was pretty much the same thing, but I got the "confinement + 2 enchantress lock" easier this time, when still at 12 life. 2x0

3rd Round vs. Maverick

It was my first time playing against maverick, so while we were shuffling I ran through my mind what maverick could possibly have that screwed my game and didn't find any real threats, only minor stuff like Pridemage and such, so even though I didn't know how to play against it I thought that it was just another aggro deck, its hate doesn't really hurt us.
I don't remember much, but just like I though, the worst thing Maverick can do is to hit you with one or two Pridemages and not much more. I got some beats from Reliquarys and 4/4 lifelink germs, willingly, while setting up, but every card I played my opponent sank a little more in his seat. It wasn't long until I had protection from every direction. Both games were like that, only that the second game I had to deal with a couple of Gaddock Teegs and a Leyline of Sancticity(!), but O. Ring likes to exile creatures in this deck and Seal of Primordium takes care of Leyline so I don't risk decking myself and don't have to waste an attack phase to win. 2x0

4th round vs. UR Sneak Attack

I know what the deck is about but don't know the inside of it, what cards it plays etc but I know Enchantress loses to combo. I began playing confident that my winning streak was about to end.
First game I have a regular hand with an unsuspecting Seal of Primordium in it. We play regular stuff until he Intuitions for 3 Sneak Attacks during my EoT. He sends two to the bin, puts one in hand, draws for the turn, taps out to play the enchantment and passes! I was hoping for that but not really expecting it. Now I just play my Seal and destroy his Sneak Attack, big mistake of his. He wasn't expecting that neither so he didn't have any backup plan ready and while he was searching for something I could lock the game.
Second game again I see Leyline of Sancticity, times two now. Do they know I have Sigil? Luck strikes again and he gets stuck on two lands for a few turns, leaving me free to play whaterver I want and locking him with a Choke, then one Seal of Primordium and one Aura of Silence clear the table of Leylines and I WoW'd him to death. 2x0

I'm 4-0-0, 8-0 in games, it's been a long time that since I had such a good record. I ID'd round 5 and finish 1st for the top 8 (yes, 19 people, 5 rounds, top 8, don't ask, we like to play this game too much I guess). Let's see how much longer my luck will last. Or at least for how much longer BAD luck won't hit.

Top 8 vs. BG homebrew

The only thing I know is that he has Braids, Cabal Minion. WTF?!! How I play against that I don't know, let's see.

Game 1 I see Braids on turn two from a Dark Ritual with him already with a Putrid Imp in play. My upkeep I try to sac a Wild Growth but he reminds me that echantment is not one of the options, so there goes my forest AND the wild growth. I play safe and just don't drop anything, and since it was an early Braids he starts to eat himself out too. When he only has one land and the Braids I drop forest, play Grass and pass. He sacs the land, drops another and passes back. I pay the upkeep, sac the land and pass back still with grass in play. He finally sacs Braids and now we can start playing. I still stumble on finding the right lands, having only Sanctum and plains for a long time, but he also couldn't drop any more relevant threats, so I finally do my thing, lock the game out and that is it.
Game two I get some fast beats from a class of different creatures. I'm at 8 and he has 7 combat damage on the table. I drop an Argothian and pass. She gets Edicted, he beats for 7 and drops me to 1. On my turn I'm forced to drop a confinement with nothing else in play, but with enough cards in hand to sustain it while I drop some enchantress effects the following turns. 2x0

Top 4 vs. Storm combo

It's an impossible match against, and I know he knows how to pilot storm decks pretty well (he is a good friend, I play against him all the time), so now I am pretty sure I won't go further.

Game one he plays slow and I am able to drop a Halo on Tendrils, but since I couldn't find any other protection he goes off with Grapeshot + Ill-gotten Gains. Damn! Almost had that one! :P

Game two I drop enchantress presence turn two, he comboes turn two. Ad Nauseam while on 20 life is pretty good I hear. 0x2

Things to note:

The list has one Plains too much. Something else is getting in, be a forest, a dual or a fetchland, but that 4th plains is getting me into trouble.

Ghostly Prison is overkill and not necessary at all. The times of Goblins is long gone, now is the time of Reliquary and equiped things. I sided it out every single game, it doesn't even have sideboard value anymore. Many of you probably knew that for a while but I personally never realized it.

I'm playing with too much accelaration. I see myself cutting one or two, being it any combination of Exploration and/or Wild Growth and/or Utopia Sprawl. I see Growth being the better of the three and I sideboarded out one Sprawl very often and didn't miss it. What you guys think?

WoWar has to stay. Sometimes I even go an extra mile to kill with it (destroying opposing Leylines) while at the same time making sure I won't deck myself. I don't think any kill condition comes close to the WoWar/Sigil combination. Beat with 3 anges, burn for 10 GG. They work great.

Lignify is good, therefore Journey to Nowhere must also be. I'll be including one in the sideboard and probably one of either in the maindeck.

Guile is bonkers. Library is not even close. One mana >>>> two mana in this deck, oh, and of course, saves you under confinement.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

I don't think that's too much acceleration at all. I actually run the same thing, but 2 Exploration instead of 1. The turn 2 Enchantress is so key that you don't want to go below the 8 Growth effects, and Exploration speeds you up at least 2 turns every game you drop it, which is super relevant in many match-ups.

On the topic of the turn 2 Enchantress, have you tested GSZ?

[Pienterekaak]

First i would like to say that i havnt been playing magic for a year, but i am thinking of playing it a bit again.. Before i quitted i played Enchantress for around 2 years, so i am quite familliar with the deck. My sideboard is very out dated, but i still like my maindeck:

//Mana base: 22
8 Forest
4 Windswept Heath
1 Savannah
1 Taiga
2 Serra's Sanctum
5 Plain
1 Karakas

//Draw: 8
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Prescence

//Mana acceleration: 6
4 Utopia Sprawl
2 Wild Growth

//Protection: 11
3 Elephant Grass
3 Solitary Confinement
1 Runed Halo
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Moat
1 karmic justice

//Kill: 3
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 Words of War
1 Sacred Mesa

//Search 5
4 Sterling Grove
1 Enlightent tutor

//Utility: 5
3 Orim's Chant
2 Replenish

//Sideboard (very old)
2 Karmic Justice
2 Choke
1 Humility
1 Pulse of the Fields
2 Aura of Silence
2 Pithing Needle
1 Ground Seal
3 Wheel of sun and moon
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn


The big difference is that it replaces mirri's guile with 3 chants. The reason why i didnt play mirri in the first place was because i could just draw the cards instead of looking at them (although i do understand it is a good card). The 3 chants are played to fight the deck's main weaknesses (some more relevant than others).

As was mentioned, with 4/5 counters you can counter all win conditions. Now they need 3 more counters.

Maindeck you are very bad against storm decks, having 3 chant helps a lot (especially if you know your opponent plays storm, then you can mull to them).

Even with the perfect lock, you can still lose because the opponent destroys all enchantments, and then attacks for lethal damage. Chant cast in response to this spell (with kicker) makes sure you cant lose this turn, and you have 1 more turn to cast replenish and win again.


Other small advantages:

-It is never a dead card, you can always timewalk with it.
-After you made enough angel tokens to win, pass the turn, and chant in their upkeep, timewalking and essencially giving your tokens haste.

1 Emrakul in side is not only awesome but also gives you an edge in mirror games and in the general control matchup (especially UB landstill)

What sideboard does the source suggest for this list in the current meta?

[caiomarcos]

On the topic of the turn 2 Enchantress, have you tested GSZ?

Haven't tested GSZ yet, but I'll try 2 of them in place of Prison and whatever else...
For this deck I actually think that GSZ would be better if it stayed in the grave insted of being shuffled back. I don't think you would ever want to see 2 GSZ during one single game... Terrible topdeck, even worse than Mox I think, and mox didn't make the cut because of that. Anyway, I'll try them out.

[ESG]

Lignify is good, therefore Journey to Nowhere must also be. I'll be including one in the sideboard and probably one of either in the maindeck.

Congrats on your good finish. Journey to Nowhere serves a similar purpose but has the drawback that it can be Stifled, whereas Lignify has the drawback of pumping Tarmogoyf if it's destroyed. My question to you would be: When would you rather have Journey to Nowhere over another Oblivion Ring? And under those circumstances, would Soul Snare or Spirit Link be better, the same, or worse than Journey to Nowhere?

In my view, the main thing Lignify has going for it is that it provides a good out to Iona on white.

[Jak]

Lignify can't answer Emrakul, if I am not mistaken. Seems much more prevalent than Iona.

[caiomarcos]

Congrats on your good finish. Journey to Nowhere serves a similar purpose but has the drawback that it can be Stifled, whereas Lignify has the drawback of pumping Tarmogoyf if it's destroyed. My question to you would be: When would you rather have Journey to Nowhere over another Oblivion Ring? And under those circumstances, would Soul Snare or Spirit Link be better, the same, or worse than Journey to Nowhere?

In my view, the main thing Lignify has going for it is that it provides a good out to Iona on white.

I see Lignify and Journey to Nowhere having a completely different role from Spirit Link. They are here mainly to answer creatures with abilities like Ethersworn Canonist, Gaddok Teeg, reanimator targets etc. Of course dealing with beaters like Goyf is really good, but the deck already deals confortably with the combat step. So, against O. Ring, being 2 mana instead of 3 makes a huge difference (just like Mirri's Guile vs. Sylvan Library) when you have to deal with early pounders like Piledriver while at the same time developing your game.
The best part of Lignify is it being green. It dodges Iona on white (I believe that was the reson it was added to the deck) and is on your main color, but I think today Journey to Nowhere stands out because it deals with Progenitus and Emrakul and equipment.

[Sevryn]

The primary benefit of Lignify is that you can cast it with Iona on the table (set to white). It's good to have some split of Lignify and Oblivion Ring (or Journey to nowhere).

[ESG]

@ Jak: You are correct: By being a colored spell, Lignify can't enchant Emrakul whereas the ability of Journey to Nowhere will remove Emmy (abilities vs. spells). I agree that there will usually be more Emrakuls in a given tourney than Ionas, although some of those Eldrazi will probably be hardcast, in which case, neither option helps us. Personally, I dropped Lignify from my list a month ago and added another Oblivion Ring, which I prefer over Journey to Nowhere at the moment.

@ caiomarcos: Journey to Nowhere can't hit Progenitus due to his protection from white. I generally don't feel this deck should have problems with Progenitus, since we have Elephant Grass, Solitary Confinement and some us have Moat and/or Worship. Your reasons for wanting Journey to Nowhere are all good, and I think it will perform well for the purposes you listed. As I mentioned to Jak above, I'm running an extra Oblivion Ring in that slot for now and have been happy with the greater flexibility it provides. If I desire more speed over that flexibility, I'll probably move to Journey to Nowhere.

[Fjedsen]

Hey Guys,

After investing some money and time in Modern I saw Enchantress on SCG yesterday.
As I looked through my cards I looked down at my Torpor Orbs.
What do you think ? Are they good in Legacy ? I thought about Stoneblade which gets lot of value from its creatures (Stoneforge Mystic, Snapcaster, Vendillion Clique).

[DrHealex]

Actually, Lignify can deal with emrakul, it just involves more hoops to jump thru than it is worth since it involves casting a replenish and the lignify being in your graveyard (can also deal with untargetables).
Although lignify off a show and tell vs reanimator could be relevant (since its sided in that matchup anyways) but you cant enchant the card they drop off show and tell :(

[Pienterekaak]

They indeed shut down the abilities of those cards. But in order to play those, we would need to take out protection cards (which are enchantments that give us card draws). which means that we will be protected against the abilities of the creatures, but not to the actual creatures themselves. And while those abilities are very good, it is not something this deck cant handle without this card. Thus, i would rather play enchantments against the creatures, and the fact that they give me carddraws against the abilities of those creatures.

[aahz]

There was a ton of Enchantress (relatively speaking) at SCG Sacramento. I think there were at least 4 versions of the deck (3 of which Top 32'd) all with quite different card choices. In nearly every single round, my opponent had to stop and read what at least one card did.

We had a little pow-pow of the Enchantress players after the last round to compare decks and sideboards. Unfortunately, for one of us (Shane, I think), there did not seem to be a single Words of War at the whole event (that wasn't already in an existing Enchantress deck). If any of you are here on the Source, it was nice to meet you (I was the guy playing the alpha/beta duals and Lotus Petals).

One thing that did come up on Sunday was all the damn flying creatures these days (flipped Delvers, spirit tokens, etc.) that just go right over Moat. I think I might start running a singleton Downdraft in the side for them. You can spend mana to lock down flying creatures under Moat or you can use it as a sweeper for aberrations/tokens/clique. I'm not sure it's actually needed (in fact, I'm almost certain it isn't), but those flyers were quite annoying and who doesn't love playing with obscure cards. Thoughts?

[ESG]

Interesting find. A heavier green build like mine might find some use in that card in a Delver-heavy field, although I played against Delver twice last night (both packing CounterTop sideboards) and went 4-0 in games against them. It's good to know that card exists, though.

@DrHealex: I think I had heard of that once before but forgot it. That's one Replenish trick I've never had the opportunity to pull off. Maybe one day ...

[Freggle]

With all of this Emakrul, Progentius talk AND hearing Moats current issues with flying creatures why aren't these decks running Humility in the Moat slot and "answering" them all with a bang?

Edit: Well that was dumb. Sorry. It shuts off Argothian Enchantress ...but you still have Enchantress's Presence though.

Also I have seen a few lists running Emrakul, the Aeons Torn and no Defense of the Heart. I assume it's to hard cast it off of the copious amounts of mana many enchantress builds can make, but is that right?

I have been fiddling with a rouge enchantress build of my own for a while (never ran it at a tourney yet) of enchantress that run Natural Order and Progenitus. Since you Sacrifice a green creature you can sac Argothian, it works better than I would have imagined, but I'd have to admit it would be a lot more fun triggering a Defense of the Heart and slamming a Progenitus AND an Emrakul, the Aeons Torn into play.

Anyone else try these ideas?

[Nonex]

@ Downdraft: While it's quite curious of a card, unless you face opposing Emrakuls on a regular basis, Raking Canopy does the same and doesn't require a constant mana input.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Energy Storm is better against Delver, which is what the concern is.

[anonymos]

I like Energy Storm as an idea. I'm having trouble finding a non english one for my deck in paper.

I've been playing the deck on MTGO lately. I've been looking for a solid answer to the Bob/Liliana decks more so than delver (availability of FoW changes what's an issue). Thalia becoming popular in Maverick worries me as well. Strangely enough, I'm looking at going a little bit heavier into red to make our deck viable again. Guerrilla Tactics is something that I've stumbled onto that could fix the Liliana problem. Seal of fire seems to be my overall answer though along with MD ground seal for snapcaster and half the reanimation package. My whole list is being reworked to deal with the current meta. It's probably going to end up closer in line with the more combo oriented lists Spatula has been advocating for a while now. I'll be back in a while with more info once testing is beyond the initial theory stages.

[Freggle]

Strangely enough, I'm looking at going a little bit heavier into red to make our deck viable again.

If you wanted to splash a color what else do you gain in red outside of Words of War?

Have you considered a blue splash? You gain quite a few powerful tools.

Mark of Eviction
Seal of Removal - Emrakrul who? ...Thalia
Energy Field - an excellent way to buy time with (Wheel of Sun and Moon)
Words of Wind a very strong disruption / ultimate lock/win with Exploration.
Veiled Sentry
Wind Zendikon
Ancestral Knowledge - a good dig spell
Counterbalance
Spreading Seas - plays better than you would think.
Chill - SB hate
Mystic Remora
In the Eye of Chaos

...and my personal favorite card to run in blue builds Erayo, Soratami Ascendant ...once flipped it's nutz.

Also, from my testing any list that runs Green Sun's Zenith and no toolbox (Dungroves...) should consider Defense of the Heart in it's place for 1 more mana. It triggers very easily in Legacy with no Forbidden Orchard support. ...but you could run Orchard anyhow because Enchatress builds are designed not to care about the board state too much.

You wouldn't even need to run an Emrakul or other fattie (but I still would.) If it triggers and you pull up 2 Argothians as opposed to GSZ-ing 1 AND you get the enchanty draw. Unless you are about to die I do not see an enchantress deck with 2-3 Argothians in play loosing to easily less a board wipe.

If Thalia proves to be too much the deck can run an e tutor package for an o-ring, or a Karakas or blue for all the enchantment bounces.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

The only useful things blue gives you are WoWind, Seal of Removal, Chill, and In The Eye of Chaos. Red gives you WoWar, Seal of Fire and Blood Moon.

Both have pretty limited application outside of the kill itself; blue is one more slot than red, however.

Defense of the Heart is terrible; it doesn't curve into turn 2 and it's easy for the opponent to play around.

[Julian23]

What Spatula said. Also:


[...] should consider Defense of the Heart in it's place for 1 more mana. It triggers very easily in Legacy

No, it doesn't.


[...] you could run Orchard anyhow because Enchatress builds are designed not to care about the board state too much.

Enchantress actually cares a lot about its lands being basic. I'd run GSZ over DotH any day of the week.

[caiomarcos]

The only useful things blue gives you are WoWind, Seal of Removal, Chill, and In The Eye of Chaos. Red gives you WoWar, Seal of Fire and Blood Moon.

Both have pretty limited application outside of the kill itself; blue is one more slot than red, however.

Defense of the Heart is terrible; it doesn't curve into turn 2 and it's easy for the opponent to play around.

There's also Immolation in red that kills 90% of hatebears (Teeg, Thalia, Pridemage and whatever).

[wcm8]

There's also Immolation in red that kills 90% of hatebears (Teeg, Thalia, Pridemage and whatever).

Seems like Seal of Fire is just better if you want that effect.

[caiomarcos]

Seems like Seal of Fire is just better if you want that effect.

True, but still an option. I just don't like the idea of blue having more options than red because I just don't like blue Enchantress. :laugh:

[caiomarcos]

By the way, just saw the new Dredge primer. Isn't it time for a new Enchantress primer too?
For a long time already this thread is going in circles with dicussions about:

- Moat: needed or not?
- Blue/Words of Wind: worth it or not?
- Non-enchantment acceleration (petal, mox, ESG): worth it or not?
- Tutors, like Enlightened and Zenith: worth it or not?
- Emrakul: worth it or not?

Only in a blue moon a new subject comes around, like some new cards (Nevermore and Stony silence) and... and that's that. The last real breakthrough this deck had was Replenish leaving the ban list.

I think someone with better writing skills than me should sum that up and publish a new primer.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

omg secret tek: Immolation kills Psychatog and Wild Mongrel.

[caiomarcos]

omg secret tek: Immolation kills Psychatog and Wild Mongrel.

Meddling Mage too!

[Greatest Gargadon]

By the way, just saw the new Dredge primer. Isn't it time for a new Enchantress primer too?
For a long time already this thread is going in circles with dicussions about:

- Moat: needed or not?
- Blue/Words of Wind: worth it or not?
- Non-enchantment acceleration (petal, mox, ESG): worth it or not?
- Tutors, like Enlightened and Zenith: worth it or not?
- Emrakul: worth it or not?

Only in a blue moon a new subject comes around, like some new cards (Nevermore and Stony silence) and... and that's that. The last real breakthrough this deck had was Replenish leaving the ban list.

I think someone with better writing skills than me should sum that up and publish a new primer.

I'll attempt to help you out with this. I'm not terribly experienced with the deck but I've been playing it for a while.

Moat: or a similar effect is always needed, it's how we are allowed time to set up, especially with the strength of maverick keeping decks that relied on delver and other small flying swarms at bay. It gives you room to breath while you prepare your lock, instead of slamming down solitary confinement and praying to god you won't hit a land pocket in your draws. There will always be non-flying creatures, and they will always want to attack you, especially once your opponent figures out your gameplan and starts throwing everything including the kitchen sink at you.

Blue: Not enough testing to tell just yet (IMO). Words of wind is good, but it doesn't really win, words of war will win and fast. While there are a lot of blue enchantments that could be very helpful, moat eliminates the need to have all the bounce blue offers. The library-filtering blue cards are also not necessary because we have 8 enchantresses that draw us tons of cards along with mirri's guile to set them up as we see fit. I'm sorry Freggle I don't mean to come off like an ass but I feel all the bells and whistles that blue offers will remove the efficacy of the deck and slow it down. White gives us everything we need and more. Combo? Rule of Law/Nevermore/stony silence/runed halo/bloodmoon. Creatures? Moat. Do those creatures fly? Raking canopy. Are they countering our stuff and brainstorming too much? City of Solitude. We have a lot of answers in the current colors and they require no thought after they resolve.
I'm not counting blue out, if it works for you, by all means go for it, but red just wins faster.
Emrakul? O-ring. Or just flip the table and declare it a draw.

Non-Enchantment Acceleration: Once again, this brings up the consistency concern, if you have too many of these it'll be harder to maintain a lock (imagine draw two lotus petals and a land) and chrome mox is actually more detrimental to keeping our hand full for solitary. 4 Utopia Sprawl and 4 Wild growth have been perfect in my experience with the deck.

Tutors: While I currently use the Green Sun's Zenith I'm planning to go back to Enlightened tutor. You can say that it is card disadvantage but the fact of the matter is it will get what you need. I can zenith into an argothian, great... now I have to hope to draw my silver bullet. Don't get me wrong, Zenith has it's merits, it'll speed up the lock process, but it's more of a gamble. It is also interesting to note that with Qasali Pridemage being a main-decked creature, the tutors would be even better because now we can keep our Sterling groves in play.

[ForlornEgoist]

I'd certainly be willing to write up a new guide for the deck. I'm quite an prompt contributor in the Dragon Stompy thread, so if you want to see how I write you can go there.

@ Blue: TBH if I could afford the In the Eyes of Chaos I would've splashed it a long time ago. :p

Forlorn Egoist

[Freggle]

My comments in this thread are not to incite anger, but to spur conversation. I do think that Blue offers a lot to Enchantress, but it takes a different point of view to the deck.

One it which I am not claiming is better. I will say however Seal of Removal is about as perfect of an answer the deck gets to Emrakul unless hard casted then it is trumped by Oblivion Ring.

I do think that Defense of the Heart can do good things for SOME builds, but not all. I do feel it is best used in lists with Emakrul.

As for the basic forests. I fully understand. The traditional enchantress lists are totally focused on the longest of games, and in doing so must protect everything from everything. However, when focused on this strategy there are many cards in the deck that are used to not loose, whereas those slots could potentially be used to try and win more soundly and quickly. ...like defense of the Heart Emakrul OR Natural Order -> Progenitus.

These are just ideas, but I think they should be discussed as they are some of the most solid ways to win in Legacy. Not discussing them is a disservice to all who write and read here IMHO.

For those interested I'm looking into some powerful enchantress interactions in a primarily GU list here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23437-Developmental-Spreading-Illusions-An-Enchantress-Variant&p=628884#post628884).

[anonymos]

Seems like Seal of Fire is just better if you want that effect.

I prefer seal of fire to immolation. Here's why. Immolation fixes a problem on the board that's already messing with you. Seal of Fire thumps itself on the chest and yells "Come at me bro!" then burns bobs eyes out a couple turns later or finishes of Liliana. It also can be used against other PW in an emergency (buys a turn v. Jace going ultimate) where Immolation can only get guys. Seal is more versatile.

[waSP]

Getting to my wit's end at the theorycrafting on blue. All kill conditions are great kill conditions when you have 3-4 Enchantress effects out and a Solitary on the board. This is undeniably true and will remain so. Words of War doesn't just win any more quickly than Fanning the Flames in those cases.

Some kill conditions are good in situations where it would be very hard to win the game otherwise.

Sigil of the Empty Throne is great because it doesn't require any Enchantress effects to be bonkers. You just play cards from your deck and it's amazing. It does cost WW to play and it is susceptible to cards that prevent creatures from dealing damage (Elephant Grass, Solitary Confinement, Propaganda). It requires an untap step to do anything.

Emrakul is good because it gives you an out against an opponent who reserves sufficient countermagic to handle your kill conditions and makes decking nearly impossible. It breaks stalemates in the mirror. It is not great because it costs 15 and will never do anything other than win games that have lasted long enough to cast him. It is not susceptible to hate.

Words of War is good because it provides a concrete ending point. It can kill hatebears and maybe take down pesky Planeswalkers (though I haven't heard a single account of either of these things). It is not great because it requires you to have effectively already won the game in order to work (via having a spare 9-10 draws). It's fast if you've already won, but at that point, so is Hurricane. It is susceptible to Pithing Needle, damage prevention cards.

Words of Wind is good because it can break a stalemate in the mirror. It can prevent an opponent from playing mass removal or from establishing a strong presence in the game. Most opponents will scoop to it once their position is obviously locked out. It is not great because it is very mana intensive (like Words of War) and does not deal damage directly. It is susceptible to Pithing Needle.

Sacred Mesa is bad because it is slow and mana intensive and is susceptible to hate. It is susceptible to Pithing Needle, anti-creature cards, damage prevention cards. It requires an untap step to do anything.


The argument for running blue is:
You play against a lot of Force of Wills and Words of Wind is more of a must-counter than Words of War. (this depends on how aggro they want to be).
You play against the mirror a lot.
You play against 4x Pernicious Deed a lot.
You play against Solidarity.
Brainstorm could be great (although not in my experience in this deck).
Energy Flux is hilarious; In the Eye of Chaos is better.
You eat up infinite combos.

The argument for running red is:
Words of War is MENACING.
Blood Moon is excellent in a LOT of matchups (the good reason to run red).
You like the idea of having access to direct damage (Seal of Fire, Words of War).
You want to run all basics and always be able to cast Trace of Abundance on your Serra's Sanctum.
Not having too many deckbuilding options gives you a clarity of focus.

The argument for running black is (and hasn't been made before):
Pernicious Deed is awesome if you have a Replenish for when you untap.
Thoughtseize is an incredible disruption tool.
Words of Waste is another effective lock for a different gamestate (permanent instant speed hand disruption if you have Sensei's Divining Top).
4 Seal of Doom + 3-4 Replenishes sounds really appealing in your meta.
Argothian Enchantress seems built for The Abyss.
You take contrarianism more seriously than anyone else.

[caiomarcos]

You forgot to mention the biggest con against Emrakul: it is not an enchantmet.

[waSP]

If you cast Emrakul, I don't think you care if it's an enchantment.

[caiomarcos]

If you cast Emrakul, I don't think you care if it's an enchantment.

But if you cast or search or replenish WoW(s), Sacred Mesa, Sigil you do care that they are enchantments. Many many times you don't really care if it is a kill condition or a protection or an acceleration, you only want them to be enchantments.

What I'm saying is exactly what you said here: "It is not great because it costs 15 and will never do anything other than win games that have lasted long enough to cast him".

I just tried to emphasize that by saying, plain and simple, that it is not an enchantment. That makes it much worse than 'not great'.

[wcm8]

I'm sure it's been discussed before, but a card that I think would be kind of cool as a back-up kill condition in the SB is Primal Order.

All you have to do is drop it and play defensively for a few turns. It doesn't require using the attack phase or multiple activations -- just a fire and forget type of card.

[Freggle]

Argothian Enchantress seems built for The Abyss.


Not enough time to read through all the posts, and answer all of them, but this no longer works the way you think it does.

[DrHealex]

At the beginning of each
player's upkeep, destroy
target nonartifact creature
that player controls of his
or her choice. It can't be
regenerated.

Since the only thing it would kill is angel tokens, I imagine it prolly works the way he thinks it does.

[aahz]

At the beginning of each
player's upkeep, destroy
target nonartifact creature
that player controls of his
or her choice. It can't be
regenerated.

Since the only thing it would kill is angel tokens, I imagine it prolly works the way he thinks it does.
QFT. The Abyss was a staple in the original Type 1 Enchantress decks (circa 2002) because of this specific interaction. Neither card has been changed in any way since that has any influence here.

I was thinking about writing an article about the history of Enchantress decks (including the old Type 1 versions, which the Legacy lists borrow heavily from in terms of general deck structure, whether the builders realize this or not, and are really the genesis of the modern engine (Argothian+Presence+Grove)). This would probably end up being a primer of sorts (that includes much historical context). The Vintage Enchantress decks are interesting in terms of discussing a color splash because they had both Black and Blue splashes. The Blue was primarily for Ancestral and Walk (and such not as relevant for Legacy), but Black allowed some interesting things like The Abyss, Words of Waste, and Duress/Thoughtseize (as has been previously mentioned). I have considered trying to develop a version with a black splash to shore up the combo matchup, but never seem to find the time (damn real life getting in the way!).

Also:

Words of War is good because it provides a concrete ending point. It can kill hatebears and maybe take down pesky Planeswalkers (though I haven't heard a single account of either of these things). It is not great because it requires you to have effectively already won the game in order to work (via having a spare 9-10 draws). It's fast if you've already won, but at that point, so is Hurricane. It is susceptible to Pithing Needle, damage prevention cards.
This is not necessarily true (well, Pithing Needle/Prevention I'll give you). I won a game 3 at SGC Sacramento in less than 10 minutes due to being aggressive with WoW. I did not have a lock, but was in a position where I had tripped up my opponent enough that he was not applying significant pressure (WoW kills weenies), so I just skipped my draws and aimed for the face. Admittedly, I likely would have played more conservatively if there had been more time left on the clock, but he didn't recover and I won the game in record time (for Enchantress especially). While this sort of thing isn't common, it does occur occasionally and highlights the versatility of Words of War.

[Freggle]

At the beginning of each
player's upkeep, destroy
target nonartifact creature
that player controls of his
or her choice. It can't be
regenerated.

Since the only thing it would kill is angel tokens, I imagine it prolly works the way he thinks it does.

It no longer targets. Oracle Text:
"At the beginning of each player's upkeep, destroy target nonartifact creature that player controls of his or her choice. It can't be regenerated."

If no other creatures are in play it would destroy Argothian.

[heroicraptor]

It no longer targets. Oracle Text:
"At the beginning of each player's upkeep, destroy target nonartifact creature that player controls of his or her choice. It can't be regenerated."

If no other creatures are in play it would destroy Argothian.

Um...

[Freggle]

Um...

Ha-ha! I'm really sorry. i'm at work and should just focus on that. You're right.

[Freggle]

I was thinking about writing an article about the history of Enchantress decks (including the old Type 1 versions, which the Legacy lists borrow heavily from in terms of general deck structure, whether the builders realize this or not, and are really the genesis of the modern engine (Argothian+Presence+Grove)).

I would love to read this, and see a new primer. Also, I hope I'm not too annoying looking for ways to push this archetype back to a DTB state. I just really like the archetype and I think with a fresh perspective there might be room for improvement.

Like what is the ultimate drawback to a tight Natural Order / Progenitus package? ...or just winning off the back of an Emakrul?

I think 1 to 2 Natural Order & 1 Progenitus MAY be okay because it will always allow the deck to threaten a win even from a loosing position. It will also make that scary targeted discard really REALLY think.

...or with list that run Ghostly Prison why wouldn't you just run Defense of the Heart if everyone is so good at playing around the card? Don't 1 to 2 creatures still get through under a prison? There might just be the off chance that you could catch someone with 3 creatures out an tutor out a Emakrul. ...you know like Dryad Arbor, Noble, Knight?

[caiomarcos]

I would love to read this, and see a new primer. Also, I hope I'm not too annoying looking for ways to push this archetype back to a DTB state. I just really like the archetype and I think with a fresh perspective there might be room for improvement.

Like what is the ultimate drawback to a tight Natural Order / Progenitus package? ...or just winning off the back of an Emakrul?

I think 1 to 2 Natural Order & 1 Progenitus MAY be okay because it will always allow the deck to threaten a win even from a loosing position. It will also make that scary targeted discard really REALLY think.

...or with list that run Ghostly Prison why wouldn't you just run Defense of the Heart if everyone is so good at playing around the card? Don't 1 to 2 creatures still get through under a prison? There might just be the off chance that you could catch someone with 3 creatures out an tutor out a Emakrul. ...you know like Dryad Arbor, Noble, Knight?

How is Natural Order + Progenitus fresh?
Have you tested it?

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

The deck doesn't need stupid pet tricks to perform better. It needs redundancy, resiliency and strength. We have all that in the core cards, and GSZ has given us the redundancy we've been lacking.

This is a great metagame for us. It's a wasted opportunity to spend it playing silly fun cards and wondering why you're losing, when you could just run a streamlined, strong version of the deck and rock the metagame.

[Greatest Gargadon]

And progenitus can't attack when you have moat out.

[GoldenCid]

And progenitus can't attack when you have moat out.

Exactly. But it's not stupid, just an option although i dont like it.

On blue: the biggest cards that blue can provide are: In the Eye of Chaos and Words of Wind and i'm not sure if the worth...

[Greatest Gargadon]

Exactly. But it's not stupid, just an option although i dont like it.

On blue: the biggest cards that blue can provide are: In the Eye of Chaos and Words of Wind and i'm not sure if the worth...

A progenitus win con could be a good thing for the deck, you just can't shoe-horn it into the current build. The way I think it would be most successful is through a complete revamping of the deck to support NO Prog.

Off the top of my head, you'd cut moat, and elephant grass, (because those stop you from attacking too.) and remove the red splash, and add in a blue splash for energyfield/wheel of sun and moon combo (to replace the moat effect this deck so desperately needs) and up the Green sun count to a four-of so we can ALWAYS have an argothian out to feed to NO.

Finally, In the Eye's of Chaos (since everyone seems to want to use that card =P) can be used to protect the combo or cards like city of solitude. There were a few other blue enchantments that were mentioned that do some card filtering, those could be good.
Again this is just off the top of my head. (and I'm a die-hard naya enchantress lover)

Again: Words of war needs you to draw ten cards and it's over, its a clock, its pressure, its creature control its a solid win. Words of wind...bounces everything...I mean it's great with Emrakul though.. play emrakul, swing, bounce it, play it again, swing. But that's just so win-more its borderline insulting to your opponent. xD

[Freggle]

I just really like the archetype and I think with a fresh perspective there might be room for improvement.

Like what is the ultimate drawback to a tight Natural Order / Progenitus package?

How is Natural Order + Progenitus fresh?
Have you tested it?
I think this was taken out of context. I meant fresh for the archetype.

I have tested it. The builds I tested it in ran some old school tech with Wall of Blossoms and some hidden enchantments (Hidden Herd, Hidden Gibbons) as an additional sac outlet.

It was good at what it was supposed to do. Making a lightning quick Progenitus. It was very hard to disrupt being that it ran nothing but basic forests and it had City of Solitude to push the combo through.

I tabled it because I moved on to what eventually became a Maveric NO with Summoning Trap list at the time because the meta was filled with Mental Misstep at the time and it was very easy to have a mana dude countered (many times T1) to flop out a Progenitus.


The deck doesn't need stupid pet tricks to perform better. It needs redundancy, resiliency and strength. We have all that in the core cards, and GSZ has given us the redundancy we've been lacking.

I understand your stance, and I do not totally disagree with it. There is a solid core to this deck, but could there be minor changes made to the list that could have a major positive effect in play?


And progenitus can't attack when you have moat out. Just read this thread. Moat has been under performing for a while could there be a similar card with a similar effect for this deck like Energy Field? Energy Field also stops direct damage cold.


...and up the Green sun count to a four-of so we can ALWAYS have an argothian out to feed to NO.

I'd be careful with the number of GSZ's run as they do shuffle back in. You don't want to wast too many slots that do not trigger draws while we are rolling or the deck fizzles a lot more. If you wan to run close to the max of GSZ'z you would want to run Dungrove Elder be an alt aggro target that is a pain for many, many decks. Especially lists with Exploration


True, but still an option. I just don't like the idea of blue having more options than red because I just don't like blue Enchantress. :laugh:
I have a fairly healthy disdain for blue in general myself (if that i where this stems from.) I used to be a major blue player until Alliances was printed and all but neutered my all time favorite archetype recursion. Sure I 'll play lists with blue, but it's not my go to thing. ...but I'd have to say it's pretty fun to infiltrate their color and play things like In the Eye of Chaos or a tempo Choke list like I posted here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23437-Developmental-Spreading-Illusions-An-Enchantress-Variant) to give them a taste of their medicine.

Edit: You can still run Elephant Grass and Natural Order / Progenitus together. You just to pay grass's upkeep cost the turn after summoning sickness.

[aahz]

Off the top of my head, you'd cut moat, and elephant grass, (because those stop you from attacking too.)
Reread Elephant Grass. There are a couple of pesky "you"s in there that you might not have noticed.

[Greatest Gargadon]

Reread Elephant Grass. There are a couple of pesky "you"s in there that you might not have noticed.

Damn those ''you''s, hiding in places and changing my perception.
If all that grass was out of the way, I'd be able to read it properly.. =/

[ForlornEgoist]

Well, its a little under 2 weeks until Minneapolis has its own Starcity Games IQ and I am frantically scurrying about, trying to decide between my 3 docks (Deadguy Ale w/green splash, MUD Dragon Stompy, Enchantress) I'll be taking with me.

Recently I've had rather excellent success with my Deadguy build, especially since adding Manriki-Gusari to the Stoneforge toolbox, but I found even with Gusari/Deed the deck had issues in the Maverick MU.

I've styled my Dragon Stompy deck after MUD so its artifact-heavy and has multiple answers to many of the meta MU (Combust, Cursed Totem, Shattering Spree, Etched Champion) however for those of you who don't know DS is highly inconsistent and I am fearful that even with the hate I have added it will have great difficulty in dealing with Maverick as well.

So, this leaves Enchantress for consideration. Now, in my mind the primary DTB are Maverick, URx Delver/Thresh, U/W Stoneblade, Misc. combo (Reanimator/Dredge primarily). Now, although Enchantress does have its weaknesses against combo I consider the Stoneforge/Maverick decks to be far more prevalent in the metas so this leads me to think Enchantress might have a fairly decent chance.

I've invested the past 1-2 months in developed my MUD Dragon Stompy deck so I've not had much chance to test Enchantress in the current meta.

Can anyone with experience please give me insights as to how this deck has played since the release of Thalia? What have been some problem cards you've noted? Have there been certain MU's you just couldn't handle?

For reference, here is my current list:

4 Windswept Heath
2 Arid Mesa
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Serra's Sanctum
1 Taiga
1 Plateau
5 Forest
3 Plains

1 Replenish
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Enlightened Tutor

4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Elephant Grass
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Sterling Grove
1 Ground Seal
3 Solitary Confinement
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Enchantress's Presence
1 Words of War
1 Blood Moon
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

1 Replenish
1 Karmic Justice
1 Vexing Shusher
2 Choke
2 City of Solitude
2 Aura of Silence
3 Stony Silence
3 Leyline of Sanctity

All-in-all, a rather standard list. The main thing you should note, however, is that this is the build I last played about 1-2 months ago, and it was tailored specifically for my local meta at the time which was rampant with Uxx, Painter Combo, and decks with greedy mana bases. This is NOT the list I would plan on taking to Starcity.

Ground Seal
Blood Moon
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Vexing Shusher

Should all be considered flex spots right off the bat.

As it stands I'm still in a very aggro mindset as I've invested time everyday to improving my MUD Dragon Stompy build, which has only been dampened since last night I took apart my Rock deck, rebuilt it as Deadguy, and took nearly first place at a local tourney so my head has been swimming with perhaps piloting that.

If anyone with vivid experience in the current meta has suggestions for how I might improve/adapt this build, I'd appreciate suggestions.

Forlorn Egoist

[HPB_Eggo]

New card that looks especially excellent for Enchantress: Abundant Growth.

Might consider splashing stronger now. At the very least, will lead to a more stable mana base and more cards over the early bits of the game.

EDIT: Picture, since I forgot the cards tag will not work yet...

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/avr/j0kigrz0qv_en.jpg

[Nonex]

I'm not that sure. Card drawing is good, but simple mana fixing pales in comparison to mana acceleration.

[HPB_Eggo]

Yeah, I failed to catch that when reading through it.

Regardless, it will still probably be playable. Not over Utopia Sprawl, certainly, but I think running some alongside it will be decent.

[caiomarcos]

Yeah, I failed to catch that when reading through it.

Regardless, it will still probably be playable. Not over Utopia Sprawl, certainly, but I think running some alongside it will be decent.


This deck does not need mana fixing, not the current lists.
Cantrip is good, but not even Ground Seal is seeing much play, and it cantrips AND does something very useful.

[HPB_Eggo]

This deck does not need mana fixing, not the current lists.
Cantrip is good, but not even Ground Seal is seeing much play, and it cantrips AND does something very useful.

I'm mostly thinking of running it to fix a three or four color list.

Of course, it remains to be seen if I can find a good reason to actually run a three/four color list. I certainly haven't in the past (outside of a light red splash in some cases) but there's always a good chance I haven't been quite thorough enough.

[waSP]

Your game plan can shift a little bit now. White is basically in the deck for Sterling Grove, Enlightened Tutor, Moat (less and less), and Solitary Confinement. Because those are the colors we like, we tend to run a lot more white cards because they are easier to cast. Abundant Growth could give you the ability to play any of those cards without making a huge white investment.

I will likely run the usual Confinement package and maybe 2 Sterling Grove.

Do we have a comprehensive list of non-Green, non-White enchantments that fit well into this deck's plan? I can think of about 6.

Abundant Growth is another card which makes Words of Wind even better. Before to "go off" you needed a couple of Enchantresses in play or way too much mana. With Abundant Growth, you can bounce 2-3 permanents a turn starting turn 3. It also seems great for you Words of War people out there.

Also, does this card mean Prosbloom is back? We have 8 awesome cantrip-y Enchantments now and 12 good Enchantress effects. Wrong thread, probably.

[scrubbysniff]

So I did something pretty hilarious at the last Legacy FNM; I tossed one Ancestral Mask in. I actually won like 3 games with it! Against pox, after stabilizing(at 4 then 1 life!!) I dropped a mask on a single sigil token and swung with a 20/20 plus angel, both games. Obviously not a great choice; I didn't care though as it was FNM, but I like making sigil into a faster kill w/o using crossroads. Noone is going to add this sweet tech to their deck, just something funny I thought I'd share :)

[GoldenCid]

Well, made a 4-0 in a small tournament with enchantress. Faced diverse decks: Burn, Maverick, Manaless Dredge and Dead Guy (with red splash).
These are the results:

Burn: 2-1 Side: -1 Moat -1 Ground Seal -2 O-ring -1 Replenish: +4 Leyline of Sancticity +1 CpP: RED.

Dredge: 2-0 Side: -1 Moat -1 Runed halo (or karmic justice, dont remember): +2Wheel.

Maverick: 2-0 Side: -1 Moat -1 runed halo +1 Karmic justice +1 Blood moon (horrible).

Dead guy: 2-0 Side: -1 Runed halo -1Moat or o-ring (dont remember) +1 Stony silence +1 CoP.

Global: 8-1! :)

The main comment i have is that i sided out Moat very often. No goblins, no merfolks, clique, delver, Scryb Ranger, Elspeth are everywhere! Does it worth today??

My list:

// Lands
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [US] Serra's Sanctum
1 [B] Taiga
1 [RAV] Temple Garden
3 [ZEN] Plains (2a)
6 [ZEN] Forest (4a)
1 [LG] Karakas
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
4 [US] Argothian Enchantress

// Spells
1 [ON] Words of War
2 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
2 [UD] Replenish
2 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
1 [LG] Moat
1 [OD] Karmic Justice
4 [ON] Enchantress's Presence
1 [CFX] Sigil of the Empty Throne
4 [DIS] Utopia Sprawl
3 [U] Wild Growth
2 [TE] Mirri's Guile
4 [VI] Elephant Grass
3 [JU] Solitary Confinement
4 [IN] Sterling Grove
1 [OD] Ground Seal
1 [SHM] Runed Halo

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [OD] Karmic Justice
SB: 2 [SHM] Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 4 [US] Carpet of Flowers
SB: 1 [7E] Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 [ISD] Stony Silence
SB: 1 [9E] Blood Moon
SB: 1 [VI] City of Solitude

Any comment is very welcomed. Detailed report is available if you are interested

[GoldenCid]

As "nice note" i was suprised when my oponent running maverick revealed me a Mindbreak Trap in his hand awaiting for me to cast the 3rd spell in my turn i locked him. That would have been plablematic because he wasted my karakas and landed a Goddock Teeg so countering me WoW or SoteT would have been almost game for him because Replenish is useless too...
Honestly manaless spell are becoming more and more unconfortable for me...

[Di]

As "nice note" i was suprised when my oponent running maverick revealed me a Mindbreak Trap in his hand awaiting for me to cast the 3rd spell in my turn i locked him. That would have been plablematic because he wasted my karakas and landed a Goddock Teeg so countering me WoW or SoteT would have been almost game for him because Replenish is useless too...
Honestly manaless spell are becoming more and more unconfortable for me...

That would make sense if you could cast Mindbreak Trap with Gaddock Teeg in play.

[GoldenCid]

That would make sense if you could cast Mindbreak Trap with Gaddock Teeg in play.

Yes off course, he didn't notice that, but my idea was to point the situation: He counters my win cond if i dont hit replenish fast i pass the turn and gaddock enters. Works like that. Anyway i'm not sure if my opo was conscious of some interactions. The played zenith with gaddonk on line, off course i pointed that and he couldnt do anything but i just wanted to comment that experience...

[Freggle]

Since I see this thread turning a little bit today I thought I would mention that I ran an alternate enchantress list this past weekend at the Star City Orlando open.

The list featured non-traditional choices in Energy Field and Defense of the Heart.

Both of them performed remarkably well. The list and tournament report can be found here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23437-Developmental-Spreading-Illusions-An-Enchantress-Variant&p=644093#post644093).

It ultimately placed 47th, but I would say (even though I tested quite a bit) the list is far from optimal, and moreso my play on that day was world from where I wanted it to be.

I know there was talk earlier in this thread of at least piecing together a comprehensive list of other colors enchantress could explore. Is that still something that this thread is willing to do?

Energy Field / Wheel of Sun and Moon seemed to bring the format to it's knees outside of 1 Mangara of Corondor on Sunday.

I would also appreciate any feedback on the list I played as I may make the journey to GP Atlanta to give it another go.

[caiomarcos]

I'd rather play the lone Ancestral Mask than play cumbersome Defense of the Heart. Just theory though.

[waSP]

I don't think Defense of the Heart was the hugely relevant card that got played. It was more fo the Energy Field/Wheel of Sun and Moon combo.

@Freggle
I ran Energy Fields for a very long time. I looked at which matchups it made win easier versus win more. Fair aggro decks get crushed by it. Ones with some utility (Mangara, Pridemage, counterspells) could potentially play around it. Combo decks that weren't belcher didn't tend to care. Control decks usually had answers. With the current levels of discard, counterspells, and enchantment removal, is it worth it? (the answer may be yes...)

[GoldenCid]

Energy Field + Wheel of sun and moon lock is sexy but worser than Solitary Confinement + Sterling Grove. Ok, you don't need an enchantress effect to support it but Confinemnt gives you SHROUD over Energy Field. This is quite important indeed. Moreover as mentioned above EF + WSM lock need the grove protection to make it worth. I sounds like too many parts for a suboptimal effect. But if you tell me why did you turned to this version i could appreciate somethiung i'm missing...

[Freggle]

I don't think Defense of the Heart was the hugely relevant card that got played. It was more fo the Energy Field/Wheel of Sun and Moon combo.

This is true but Defense of the Heart pulled it's weight too. Is it the absolute be all end all in enchantress wins? That is a very hard thing to argue, nor is it worth it. The reason I ran Defense is it functions independent of how well your doing in the game.

Most "traditional" enchantress wins require you to be winning to win. Defense does not. As a matter of fact it can change the tide quick in your favor.

It's true you can cast Sigil of the Empty Throne without an enchantress in play and then cast an (or multiple) enchantments to get angels, but it's seems (perhaps incorrectly) more difficult / less rewarding.


@Freggle
I ran Energy Fields for a very long time. I looked at which matchups it made win easier versus win more. Fair aggro decks get crushed by it. Ones with some utility (Mangara, Pridemage, counterspells) could potentially play around it. Combo decks that weren't belcher didn't tend to care. Control decks usually had answers. With the current levels of discard, counterspells, and enchantment removal, is it worth it? (the answer may be yes...)

Energy Field + Wheel of sun and moon lock is sexy but worser than Solitary Confinement + Sterling Grove. Ok, you don't need an enchantress effect to support it but Confinemnt gives you SHROUD over Energy Field. This is quite important indeed. Moreover as mentioned above EF + WSM lock need the grove protection to make it worth. I sounds like too many parts for a suboptimal effect. But if you tell me why did you turned to this version i could appreciate somethiung i'm missing...

You both said it. If enchantress is functioning full speed I THINK Solitary Confinement is better, but that first requires sticking and keeping an enchantress in play.

Energy Field on the other hand requires really nothing except (when you have 2 or more enchantress effects in play) cautious play to sidestep discard.

Stick a Wheel of Sun and Moon post Energy Field and you're pretty golden in most match ups. Actually many current deck list can't beat it. ...even post sideboard.

If the claim is Solitary Confinement is better versus combo, I'd say theoretically you're right, however in my testing you have to be pretty lucky to count on it. It can be too slow. ...and many times I was blindly discarding to just to loose later, but couldn't win.

There are pros and cons to both, but I see greater strength in a deck list that each card can function well on it's own as opposed to a list where many pieces greatly lean on the resolution of an 8 of.

As for the shroud debate. Yes it's good, but often too late to be as relevant as it should be. It would be good for Jace though.

I have more thoughts, but a tight schedule. In the end it could be a inclusion of both could be optimal.

[GoldenCid]

You both said it. If enchantress is functioning full speed I THINK Solitary Confinement is better, but that first requires sticking and keeping an enchantress in play.

Energy Field on the other hand requires really nothing except (when you have 2 or more enchantress effects in play) cautious play to sidestep discard.

This is partially true. It's true because Confinement requires at least 1 Enchantress effect to be opitmal and sometimes it's hard to maintain it even with 1 enchantress effects. There are some situations, few btw, when you can drop a confinement without an e. effect on line, however i must admit it need it in hand or a tutor. Although energy flux is "faster" than confinement we have to say that enchantress has a core that allows you to drop the SC when you indeed can support it: E. grass, mirri's guile, o-ring. After all enchantress in not other thing than a chain effect deck.

Now, you are wrong becasue Energy flux DO NEED a variety of conditions: first of all you can't play non permanent spells, you can't fetch or tutor for nothing. Needs Wheel to optimal and your opo not to counter anything or discard a card from your hand. Is bad against combo, completely bad. But it's true that it does not depends on e. effects.



There are pros and cons to both, but I see greater strength in a deck list that each card can function well on it's own as opposed to a list where many pieces greatly lean on the resolution of an 8 of.


This is true, that's why we run replenish and business enchantments.

[Freggle]

So to summarize:


Energy Field + Wheel of Sun and Moon

Pros
-Is a two card 4 mana combo that prevents all damage from source you do not control
-Both pieces of the combo only have (4) of each [there are no functional equivalents]
-Both cards have uses outside of the combo
-Energy Field will still prevent all damage until it is destroyed or
sacrificed
-Wheel of Sun and Moon can still enchant either player to avoid
graveyard tricks
-The combo or partial combo can be used outside of an enchantress effect on the board.

Cons
-Energy Field without Wheel of Sun and Moon on the board can be very fragile in certain match-ups.
-Energy Field does deter the deck builder from playing too many non-permanent spells.
-The combo does not grant shroud and actually deters the inclusion of shroud spells so the player can enchant him/herself with Wheel of Sun and Moon

Combo Matchup
-Good against Empty the Warrens, Dredge, Goblin Charbelcher
-Fair against Sneak and Show, Reanimator
-Bad against Hive Mind, Tendrils of Agony, High Tide


Solitary Confinement + Argothian Enchantress + any enchantment spell in hand or bounceable enchantment on the table

Pros
-Is a 3 card 5 converted mana cost combo that prevents all damage to you (regardless of source) and grants you shroud
-Solitary Confinement is a (4) of whereas any enchantress effect will do currently I can think of 4+ playable enchantress effects.
-All the cards do provide value outside the combo however Solitary Confinement does loose any stability.
-The combo does give you shroud
-Uses less card slots in enchantress builds because the deck lists already includes enchantments & enchantress's

Cons
-Forces you to skip your draw step
-Forces you to discard
-You will likely run out of discard cards unless you have or draw into a second enchantress effect.
-Dead in hand in multiples.

Combo Matchup
Good against everything except Hive Mind

I feel with the combo being independent of an enchantress effect it give the deck more resiliency/stability, and greater game against control.

The deck just needs to build around it's weakness. Limit (not eliminate) cards going to the graveyard, and look to run other enchantments / cards to shore up the combo MU you might have issues with.

Like Hive Mind - rainbow lands
Solidarity / High Tide - Emrakul
Past in Flames - Wheel of Sun and Moon...

This is not meant to be an affront to traditional enchantress, but a push to look at new design space.

The independent of enchantress effect also lead me to try Defense of the Heart as a win, and it has worked quite well. Lingering Souls makes it too easy right now.

[Hopo]

Solitary Confinement is not 100% dead against hivemind, as it shuts down Intuitions and postboard maybe Cliques. So unless you have better cards to replace it from sb, it still might have minor impact. It clearly isn't super good.

[ESG]

Freggle, unless you run an all-basics manabase, Energy Field is likely to die to Wasteland, which most of the non-combo decks in the format run. If you're running an all-basics manabase, you probably will need to stick to two colors, those being blue and green, which means a lot of other changes for the deck (and thus would be more appropriate in the New and Developmental decks thread). Lotus Petal could help fix your colors and boost your speed, but the two-card combo would still be fragile even if both pieces resolved. Any bounce spell or anything that destroys Wheel would be disastrous. Lingering Souls is basically the slowest clock ever, and Elephant Grass is already good there. Defense of the Heart is a very narrow card, and I can't think of any bad matchups it would improve.

[anonymos]

With the emergence of Sneak and Show as a dominant archetype, what do we do?

I've been thinking of adding Journey to Nowhere to deal with Maverick and the addition of Thalia, but Journey and O. Ring don't stop hasty Emrakul. I don't want to have to resort to maindeck Humility, but it may require a move in that direction.

I'm actually thinking about upping the blood moon count. They rely really heavily on their sol lands. I may have to play one main and a 2nd in the board like when 43 lands was popular.

Are there any Ensnaring Bridge type enchantments anyone knows of? Maybe Nevermore? Trying to see how to make this work.

[Freggle]

With the emergence of Sneak and Show as a dominant archetype, what do we do?

I've been thinking of adding Journey to Nowhere to deal with Maverick and the addition of Thalia, but Journey and O. Ring don't stop hasty Emrakul. I don't want to have to resort to maindeck Humility, but it may require a move in that direction.

I'm actually thinking about upping the blood moon count. They rely really heavily on their sol lands. I may have to play one main and a 2nd in the board like when 43 lands was popular.

Are there any Ensnaring Bridge type enchantments anyone knows of? Maybe Nevermore? Trying to see how to make this work.

I have had success with running Journey to Nowhere and Oblivion Ring out of the board to combat Emrakul.

The list I have been running also plays Emrakul main, and that also helps.

I have also had success in this MU with Suppression Field, but that requires a bizarre non-fetchland build.

Seal of Primordium or the better Seal of Cleansing (get Sphinx in some re-animator builds) can also stop early Lotus Petals or a resolved Sneak Attack ...but the sneak attack stop may sometimes be too slow.

Edit: ...and don't forget Choke. If resolved that is likely game.

[GoldenCid]

Well in my case i dont worry so much about S&S because we have answers: O-ring, karakas, journey even we have elephant grass. Generally they have not 2 mana floating in the pool to pay the prison effect. EG is also useful agains proggy if they run it.

[th3 w1z4rd]

Is there any way other than siding in Tajuru Preserver to stand a chance against Pox? I faced a Pox deck today and got rolled. Game 2 I had turn 0 Leyline of Sanctity to stop Duress, Hymn, and Diabolic Edict, but of course my opponent went turn 1 Dark Ritual, Pox. Any ideas?

[The Spanish Tunnel King]

Is there any way other than siding in Tajuru Preserver to stand a chance against Pox? I faced a Pox deck today and got rolled. Game 2 I had turn 0 Leyline of Sanctity to stop Duress, Hymn, and Diabolic Edict, but of course my opponent went turn 1 Dark Ritual, Pox. Any ideas?

If you want some super old tech, sacred ground ^^. It also stops annihilator things happening to you too, I believe. Its probably not good enough these days though :).

The Spanish Tunnel King

[ForlornEgoist]

If you want to really peeve the pox player off, you could consider Drought. Otherwise, for more practical answers:

Sacred Ground, as stated by The Spanish Tunnel King is a viable option against Pox/Annihilator. Remember, however, that you need to sacrifice the number of permanants required. You can't, say, sacrifice 1 land, have it recur via SG, then sac it again.

Wheel of Sun and Moon is also another option. Although it doesn't save you from being hurt from their effects it at least slows them down. Its been several years since I've played pox so I'm unsure as to their current builds but when I was playing it major contenders were cards like Crucible of Worlds to recur lands and Nether Spirit/Tombstalker. Thusly, even though Wheel doesn't save you it still slows them down greatly.

Based on what I remember of the deck these are probably your best options.

Forlorn Egoist

[ESG]

In the Pox matchup, I recommend Compost. Mirri's Guile and Sylvan Library are good because you're both usually playing off the top of your deck. Lifeforce is also good.

[Freggle]

Sacred Ground, and Compost are good, but narrow if you have room in the sideboard use them.

I have found Enlightened Tutor is good at "dodging" discard when used in response, and is excellent at putting a [cards]Enchantress's Presence[cards] on top to start gaining card advantage and traction.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Sacred Ground isn't that narrow. It's good against Emrakul as well.

Also, against Pox, Spreading Algae is actually a savage beating.

[GoldenCid]

Spiritual Focus and Spiritual Asylum also look sexy...

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Both those cards are more cute than effective, in my experience. Given that we don't run any targetable creatures, Spiritual Asylum is just a much worse Sacred Ground. Spiritual Focus only addresses one aspect of Pox or heavily black decks.

Other cards: Lifeforce - I love this card, but it's too much mana. Four mana before it has any effect is a lot to ask against a heavily disruptive deck.

Compost and Spreading Algae are your best anti-black cards. They're both in the primary color and punish the deck for everything it does. I like Spreading Algae better because it's cheaper, and has the benefit of hosing a card they will frequently sideboard against you; Dystopia.

[GoldenCid]

Both those cards are more cute than effective, in my experience. Given that we don't run any targetable creatures, Spiritual Asylum is just a much worse Sacred Ground. Spiritual Focus only addresses one aspect of Pox or heavily black decks.

Other cards: Lifeforce - I love this card, but it's too much mana. Four mana before it has any effect is a lot to ask against a heavily disruptive deck.

Compost and Spreading Algae are your best anti-black cards. They're both in the primary color and punish the deck for everything it does. I like Spreading Algae better because it's cheaper, and has the benefit of hosing a card they will frequently sideboard against you; Dystopia.

Yeah, owever i'd not "waste" slots...i run run leylines, K. Justice and runed halo. I know that they cant deal with pox, but replenish will help us...Anyway POx like decks are terrible for us...

[anonymos]

Planning for SC Detroit assuming no changes on the 20th. Plans will likely change depending on bans and unbans. Here's hoping for Earthcraft!

Main Deck

4 Windswept Heath
3 Savannah
1 Plateau
2 Serra's Sanctum
3 Plains
9 Forest

4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
2 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Elephant Grass
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
3 Solitary Confinement
4 Sterling Grove
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Words of War
1 Replenish
1 Sacred Mesa
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Humility
1 Moat
1 Blood Moon

Sideboard

2 Oblivion Ring
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Sacred Ground
1 Aura of Silence
1 Worship
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 City of Solitude
1 Solitary Confinement
2 Ground Seal - not Wheel because Seal stops Snapcaster Mage
1 Replenish
1 Karmic Justice
1 empty sleeve

Sideboard Plans

RUG Delver

-Sterling Grove x4
-Blood Moon x1
+Ground Seal x2
+Solitary Confinement x1
+Worship x1
+Sigil of the Empty Throne x1

Reanimator

-Moat x1
-Blood Moon x1
+Ground Seal x2

Dredge

-2 Sterling Grove
-1 Oblivion Ring
-1 Blood Moon
+Replenish x1
+Ground Seal x2
+Solitary Confinement x1

Stoneblade

-Moat x1
-Humility x1
-Elephant Grass x1
-Solitary Confinement x1
+Oblivion Ring x2
+Replenish x1
+City of Solitude x1

Maverick

-Blood Moon x1
-Replenish x1
+Solitary Confinement x1
+Oblivion Ring x1

Sneak and Show

-Moat x1
-Solitary Confinement x1
-Elephant Grass x1
-Green Sun's Zenith x1
-Sterling Grove x2
+Aura of Silence x1
+Sacred Ground x1
+Seal of Cleansing x1
+Seal of Primordium x1
+Oblivion Ring x2

[jnosrati]

land tax. Just thought i'd post it since i dont see it yet

[Nonex]

I don't think there's that much to say. You have things like Wild Growth, Utopia Sprawl and Carpet of Flowers, and land drops are guaranteed anyway once the draw engine starts flowing. IMO Enchantress would profit much more from Earthcraft, both as a much better accelerator and as an enabler for Sacred Mesa.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Planning for SC Detroit assuming no changes on the 20th. Plans will likely change depending on bans and unbans. Here's hoping for Earthcraft!

Main Deck

4 Windswept Heath
3 Savannah
1 Plateau
2 Serra's Sanctum
3 Plains
9 Forest

4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
2 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Elephant Grass
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
3 Solitary Confinement
4 Sterling Grove
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Words of War
1 Replenish
1 Sacred Mesa
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Humility
1 Moat
1 Blood Moon

Sideboard

2 Oblivion Ring
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Sacred Ground
1 Aura of Silence
1 Worship
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 City of Solitude
1 Solitary Confinement
2 Ground Seal - not Wheel because Seal stops Snapcaster Mage
1 Replenish
1 Karmic Justice
1 empty sleeve

*snip*

Why Sacred Mesa over Sigil? Other than Humility I see no reason for this really. Sigil ends the game quicker 99% of the time which can be huge with a deck like this where you are sure to find yourself in turns at some point. There are other reasons to but I really see no good reason outside of Humility to run Sigil (and if Humility is out you can easily end game with WoW anyways since it now kills every creature.

I would suggest another Replenish main, FoW is everywhere and discard is making a comeback, you only run 2 wincons and one way to get them back not to mention most of the hardest matchups for this deck are heavy disruption or decks with boardsweepers (or both) and Replenish will always be the best option vs. these threats. Personally I would push the E Tutor to the SB and bring in the Replenish main. Vs. decks with counters E-Tutor is often just wasting a turn to tap out and get your spell countered.

I would recommend cutting Plateau for Taiga. Early game you just lose without green mana, so you want to have as much access to it as possible. 99% of the time you don't want to see your red mana land the first 3-4 turns but those times you draw Plateau early you will wish it was Taiga, trust me. You will NEVER fetch Plateau for white mana. You need red mana for Blood Moon and Words. If you are casting Blood Moon the dual land is going to be a mountain anyways, if you are casting Words you usually have a healthy draw engine going and you will usually have no mana issues at that point. It's the times you draw Plateau + Sanctum in your opening hand you will be kicking yourself.

SB- I don't like your SB at all personally.

Sigil - belongs in MD, the only time you want to drop Humility G1 is in emergencies or vs. fatty.dec. I can see the wisdom of running Humility MD right now, but the times you actually want to drop it it's going to be so bomb you won't care about Sigil making 1/1's. Vs. Fatty decks they have no answer for Humility MD so they basically have no way to win once it hits the board. Vs. Maverick with Humility down they have no way to remove it and all their guys become 1/1s. The only danger now is Jitte really, but between Grass, Moat, Solitary you should be able to get there and they have no answer to Words so it should have no problem getting there, Mesa is not going to make much of a difference here. Vs. RUG/BUG/xUG Humility is alright and depending on board state you might want to drop one. At the same time Mesa sucks here while Humility is not down. Your Sanctum isn't going to survive long and Mesa is going to seriously speedbump you, 4/4 angels are a real threat to them and a single angel kills everything but Goyf in most builds while ending the game quickly instead of durdling around making 1/1's to chump instead of dropping lock pieces + 4/4 angels all over the board is going to make a huge difference.

I'd cut Seals, what enchantments/artifacts are you afraid of that O-Ring or Aura can't answer?

I'd cut the 4th Solitary, I think 3 MD is enough.

IMO the Enlightened Tutor plan is super strong here, especially in this meta.

You could run 3-4x E Tutors SB which allows you to run Crypt and/or Grafdigger's Cage. Then you have the option of tutoring up turn 1 Crypt/Cage vs. Reanimator and Dredge or Humility vs. Show and Tell and Hypergenesis which gives you a lot more game vs. them. It also allows you to run and tutor up silver bullets vs. a variety of other random decks.

I would cut at least one Ground Seal, it's average at best vs. most Graveyard decks and if you run E. Tutors you can afford to run Crypt or Cage which are leagues better vs. the decks you need to beat. I would run at least one Choke SB. It is leagues above Ground Seal vs. decks with Snapcaster as well as every other deck running blue.

I would consider running a Vexing Shusher SB. You already have 2 GSZ main and Shusher can cause serious headaches to Counterbalance decks or other decks heavy on counters.

With E Tutor in mind I would consider some silver bulllets vs. random decks you might expect to see or to shore up problem matchups. Examples not yet mentioned Wheel of Sun/Moon, Stoney Silence, Pithing Needle, Seal of Fire (vs. hate bears), the list goes on (just check other decklists if you need more ideas)...

Anyways good luck. Be sure to play at a reasonable pace and DO NOT hesitate to call a judge if your opponent is playing too slow. Always politely recommend your opponent concede if you have them locked out of the game (most durdles don't use their heads here unless you help them) and honestly point out the fact that it will help you both have a better chance to finish the match without a draw. I'd highly recommend putting a reminder on top of your deck if you have upkeep triggers. Always make sure you randomize the deck properly as Enchantress has a way of clumping since you normally play 20 permanents in a game and scoop them all up at once. Always keep your eye on the clock, that two minutes wasted early in a match can easily come back to bite you at the end and mean the difference between winning and drawing.

[Just me]

Land Tax got unbanned!

That card can fuel a Solitary Confinement without Echantress effect in play! A nivce line of play if you have a 4/4 Angel beating down or if you need to stay alive 3 more extra turns for example.

It also helps by reducing the lands you draw in the late game. Activating it twice is pretty neat. No mana issues, better draws late game (less chance on fizzling with a Lock supported by just 1 draw effect for example).

It also turns white mana into green mana (like the opposite of Utopia Sprawl). Making mulls easier.

Not saying it's a must have but it's also something that does require serious contemplation and testing.

Are tehre any echantments that make good use out of sacking lands? Does this make Squandered Resources more interesting?

[Vacrix]

Land Tax might also be pretty sweet with Attunement in the blue splash. Draw 3 discard 4 is pretty nice when 3 of those are land eh? It returns to your hand whenever you use it, so discard 4 is likely even workable on its own given that it will trigger each of your enchantress's every time you play it so you have a perpetual draw engine. On its own, I'm guessing that you'll usually be drawing 4 discarding 4, given that you have at least one Enchantress to work with, which allows you to sculpt and lay down whatever you need to lock the board up. It also lets you get to your win condition faster, which can be a problem for Enchantress if your opponent gets to sit in top deck mode waiting on their Reverent Silence(s).

[Just me]

Exploration + Squandered Resources also seem interesting to combine with Land Tax. It makes sure you'll trigger the Land Tax, it allows you to play more lands to actually use the lands you taxed for and it'll provide additional mana when it's sacced (to keep Land Tax going). Smells like a comboish version of the deck?

[Shawon]

But the deck is called Solitaire for a reason.

Playing Land Tax means you care about your opponent playing more lands than you.

Enchantress/Solitaire needs Earthcraft back. I've been playing a bunch of goldfishes with Earthcraft on MWS by myself. It's pretty nuts and very 'powered', but it's doesn't solve Enchantress' problem of running into counters or protecting itself from discard.

Here's my list with Earthcraft (inspired by SpatulaOfTheAges's list):


4 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [US] Serra's Sanctum
3 [R] Savannah
11 [ZEN] Forest (4)
1 [R] Taiga
4 [US] Argothian Enchantress
2 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
2 [UD] Replenish
4 [ON] Enchantress's Presence
3 [IN] Sterling Grove
3 [JU] Solitary Confinement
4 [DIS] Utopia Sprawl
3 [IA] Wild Growth
2 [TE] Earthcraft
2 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
2 [OD] Squirrel Nest
1 [ON] Words of War
1 [M12] Oblivion Ring
4 [VI] Elephant Grass


Like I said, Earthcraft is pretty nuts, even without Squirrel Nest. In my solo games, I often was able to tap Argothian Enchantress into untapping my Sprawl-Forest to net me mana. I replaced the Explorations with Earthcraft and I definitely think Earthcraft just on its own is better.

Now Squirrel Nest... Forget attacking with infinite Squirrels, give me that infinite mana!
If you can get two Sprawls (one for Red, one for White) and a Squirrel Nest on a Forest, and have Earthcraft down, you can cast anything in your deck for free? This is really good in Enchantress, because you can just keep casting Enchantments and drawing cards until you resolve Words of War, and then with infinite mana, you can replace enough draws to kill your opponent.

I have no doubt Earthcraft would make Enchantress a tier 1, but I don;t think it would be to the point where everyone would play it or the deck would be too degenerate.

[caiomarcos]

Land Tax got unbanned!

That card can fuel a Solitary Confinement without Echantress effect in play! A nivce line of play if you have a 4/4 Angel beating down or if you need to stay alive 3 more extra turns for example.

That sounds really interesting!

[Julian23]

No, that's not gonna cut it. Having a Confinement in play without at least 1 Enchantress effect ain't gonna lead anywhere. Land Tax doesn't change that. Needing to stay alive for just a couple of turns? Why? To draw the game? And why can't you pitch just any other card to Confinement then? And why don't you have an Enchantress effect in the first place?

Too fringe to warrant kicking out any other (better) Enchantment.

[GoldenCid]

@shawon: has earthcraft shown a significative advantage over traditional builds? Significative.

On land tax, I agree with julian. Even the blue splash makes it optimal.

[Shawon]

If I can put it in one sentence: When Earthcraft gets unbanned (and it WILL, see Land Tax), and you're playing Enchantress without SquirrelCraft, you're doing it wrong.

Even Sacred Mesa with Earthcraft isn't worth it. It takes another card to combo and you need twice as many cards to get infinite mana.

EDIT: Let me add more than that.

SquirrelCraft doesn't actually speed up Enchantress to kill on an earlier turn. What people who think Earthcraft is too powerful need to realize is that Squirrel Nest has to attached to an untapped Forest/basic and you still have to wait a turn to attack. Even with Utopia Sprawl, if you were going to go straight to assembling Squirrel Craft, the earliest you can kill is turn 4.

On the contrary, you don't have to wait many turns until you find and resolve Words of War, so in a way Squirrel Craft does speed up the deck. And even if you do resolve Words of War, you can generate infinite mana with Squirrel Craft and kill them much much faster.

SquirrelCraft just adds a higher threat density to Enchantress that no other card can match (not even Sigil!) while still maintaining and even improving the speed of the deck. That's the best thing I can say about it.

[Nonex]

Sacred Mesa without Earthcraft is clunky. Squirrel Nest without Earthcraft is useless.

Enchantress is too slow of a combo deck to be worried about the earliest turn in which it can kill. Also, 1-card win condition > 2-card win condition. I'd never run Mesa/Craft or Squirrel/Craft over Words of War.

I also fail to see how Squirrel/Craft generates mana. You can tap enchanted land for mana or for the token, but not for both. Care to elaborate?

[Shawon]

http://digboston.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/facepalm.jpg

I just reread Squirrel Nest. I assumed it read "Whenever enchanted land is tapped for mana, put a 1/1 Squirrel on the battlefield."

My conception of the card is quite worse than what it actually reads: "Enchanted land has TAP: Put a 1/1 green Squirrel creature token onto the battlefield."

So much for generating infinite mana.

But wait.

You can still generate infinite mana though. You would just have to create infinite tokens with Squirrel Craft and then after you untap, you can tap an arbitrarily large number of untapped Squirrels to Earthcraft a Forest/Plains for infinite mana, more if you have an Aura attached to them.

Of course, that's not as dependable as the scenarios I previously described, because those scenarios didn't involve waiting to untap Squirrels. But the option to generate infinite mana is there, should it happen you can't attack with your Squirrels or they can't deal damage (a la Peacekeeper).

Some of what I said still remains true, especially about Earthcraft. I misread Squirrel Nest, but I got Earthcraft down right. Earthcraft is still both a dangerous enabler and is decent mana acceleration with Argothian on the battlefield. You still have an advantage over Enchantress decks by being able to chain enchantments while still having access to SquirrelCraft.

My purpose for trying out SquirrelCraft in the first place was seeing for myself how powerful the combo is and if it really was worth unbanning. I may have overhyped SquirrelCraft, but I did say it was still worth unbanning. So if I thought what was a more powerful SquirrelCraft was safe to unban, then what does that say about my opinions on the actual SquirrelCraft engine? Clearly, I still think Earthcraft is safe to unban, so I got my results in the end. I'm not hung up too much that I misread Squirrel Nest :P


Enchantress is too slow of a combo deck to be worried about the earliest turn in which it can kill. Also, 1-card win condition > 2-card win condition. I'd never run Mesa/Craft or Squirrel/Craft over Words of War.

Thanks for getting me to reread Squirrel Nest and your tutorial on 1-card win conditions, but if you look at my list you'll notice I ran both SquirrelCraft and Words of War. I was talking about running SquirrelCraft in conjunction with Words of War, not replacing the card.

[Nonex]

Thanks for getting me to reread Squirrel Nest and your tutorial on 1-card win conditions, but if you look at my list you'll notice I ran both SquirrelCraft and Words of War. I was talking about running SquirrelCraft in conjunction with Words of War, not replacing the card.

My bad. That's one of those facepalms for me.

I agree on the rest. Earthcraft is pretty good on its own and I find it unbannable for today's standards too. The only discrepancy with you is that I'd still prefer Sacred Mesa over Squirrel Nest because you can get infinite mana the turn you make the tokens, though.

[Vacrix]

I guess no love for Attunement? It functions nicely on its own provided you have a few Enchantress's in play as you get to bounce it every time and replay it, retriggering your Enchantress's. Its absolutely nuts with Land Tax in play as Tax allows you to use it for 2U every turn to draw 6 cards and keep 2 of them. Nice if you are trying to get to that win condition quickly. Also, its not like you can't tutor up a singleton Attunement with Sterling Grove or Enlightened Tutor if you manage to land an early Tax.

Also, I don't see the point to the Earth Craft combo in this deck. It would be an entirely separate build in a completely different deck, if its even close to viable. Solitaire is about locking down the board, maintaining the lock and then getting to the win condition (lately in my locals people are winning with Emrakul). Diluting the decks ability to lock with fast combos that can easily be disrupted by QPM and Wasteland means you are running fewer cards to get to your lock. Its simply counterintuitive for what the deck is trying to do.

EDIT:
Also...
Opalescence.. Seems good as a 1'of tutor target via Etutor and Grove for matchups where you have to win faster under your lock. It might be a pretty solid way to get there quickly against storm combo after you lay down some hate for them (if you even get to that point). You can't sit on your lock pieces for that long or they'll just cantrip til they find Burning Wish --> Reverent Silence and storm you out.

[HPB_Eggo]

I honestly do not think Squirrelcraft would be any good here, but I have tested with just Earthcraft multiple times over the years. It's hardly broken, but running 1-3 has the potential to make the deck much faster if you can land an Argothian or two.

[Freggle]

I honestly do not think Squirrelcraft would be any good here, but I have tested with just Earthcraft multiple times over the years. It's hardly broken, but running 1-3 has the potential to make the deck much faster if you can land an Argothian or two.

Yes. Without any doubt. Earthcraft Enchantress makes the deck.

-faster
-more consistent
-more resilent
-allows a win outside an enchantress effect

I like enchantress so much I tried for a year or two to make a Vintage worthy deck. The version that came the closest used Squirrel - Craft. Exploring all 5 colors there was not anything close to that. I'd be very surprised if Wizards unbans Earthcraft in Legacy, and if they did I would be very surprised if it lasted.

[Shawon]

Also, I don't see the point to the Earth Craft combo in this deck. It would be an entirely separate build in a completely different deck, if its even close to viable. Solitaire is about locking down the board, maintaining the lock and then getting to the win condition (lately in my locals people are winning with Emrakul). Diluting the decks ability to lock with fast combos that can easily be disrupted by QPM and Wasteland means you are running fewer cards to get to your lock. Its simply counterintuitive for what the deck is trying to do.

Wasteland doesn't do much since Earthcraft only untaps basics, and Qasali Pridemage can be answered with Sterling Grove/Replenish/Humility.

SquirrelCraft isn't a fast combo. It's a turn 5 combo if you have no mana acceleration.
Turn 4 with Utopia Sprawl. That's not fast in Legacy. Anyway, only one half of the combo is counterintuitive. Earthcraft speeds up the deck with Argothian Enchantress in play thus you don't have to depend on drawing or tutoring Squirrel Nest just to make use of Earthcraft.

Like I said before, the purpose of SquirrelCraft isn't to speed up the deck but to add a higher threat density while facilitating your plan A (which is setting up Confinement lock and finishing with Words of War).

I think SquirrelCraft is also very helpful if you're forced to run Humility. With Humility in play, you can only draw cards off of Presence, thus it makes it harder to combo off with Words or set up a Confinement-lock. SquirrelCraft in this situation becomes an immediate threat that is much harder to deal with if Humility shuts down some of your opponent's answers.

[novatinhu]

Hello,

I won yesterday with this list:


Lands

6 Forest
4 Windswept Heath
2 Plains
2 Serra's Sanctum
2 Savannah
1 Taiga
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Wooded Foothills


Creatures

4 Argothian Enchantress
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Spells

4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Elephant Grass
4 Wild Growth
4 Sterling Grove
4 Enchantress's Presence
3 Solitary Confinement
2 Mirri's Guile
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Replenish
1 Words of War
1 Karmic Justice
1 Ground Seal
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne

Sideboard

1 Solitary Confinement
1 Karmic Justice
2 Choke
2 Wheel of Sun and Moon
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Stony Silence
1 Aura of Silence
1 Runed Halo
1 Faith's Fetters


I played against:

Round 1:
vz. Agro elves, Won.
Very easy match, G1 and G2 without problem.

Round 2:
vs.GW Maverick, lose.
Won G1 whithout problem, but lost G2 and G3, becouse Thalia+Gaddock+Canonist.

Round 3:
vs.GW Maverick, Won.
Won G1 whithout problem and G2 too becouse he dosent have the same hates the other maverick.

Round 4:
vs.Nicfit, Won.
Won G1 whithout problem and G2 i won becosa an Faith'f Fetters on deed an won next turn.

Semi-finals:
vs.Affinity, Won.
Won G1 very very easy and G2 too, I think this match is something about 95% chance of win.

Finals:
vs.GW Maverick from Round 2, Won.
Won G1 whithout problem, G2 he dosent find Thalia+Gaddock+Canonist and I won.


My only problems are Thalia and Canonist, i thiking on playing with 2 humility against it.

Cya

[GoldenCid]

Well done!!!!
How do you plan to play humility with argothians and emrakul??

[novatinhu]

I think we need to play around it, becouse humility on board protected by sterling grove its like GG agains maverick.

[ForlornEgoist]

Well, to be perfectly honestly how troublesome is Maverick a MU for players here? I've sparcely had issues against the deck. We can easily ramp to our hearts content with Sprawl/Growth, and they only form of removal they have is 1-2 Qasali backed by 3-4 GSZ. Because they're an extremely aggressive deck they rarely can afford to pay for Grass. Albeit Thalia is a problem card, however I consider her the biggest threat and they lack cantrip/tutors for her.

As for Humility, I consider it to be somewhat reasonable. Atm "Cheat," decks like S&T/SA/Reanimator are seeing more prevalence and having an out beyond O-Ring is conveinant, not to mention Humility answers Merfolk which is bound to see more play once M13 comes out. My only issue is that RUG is the forerunner in many metas and Humility neither answers nor benefits us in this MU.

Forlorn Egoist

[JanoschEausH]

After over 100 games of testing i came up with this list. It has a really good game against most of the meta decks. Of course, unfair decks are still troublesome to some point, but the matchups have improved alot in our favour. Especially Sneakshow and Reanimator are not that backbreaking anymore with Humility maindeck.
I consider Storm-Combo and Hive Mind to be the worst matchups by far.
In terms of fair decks i think RUG Delver is the toughest. A lot of prevalent decks like Maverick, UW Miracle, Stoneblade and Merfolk are a cakewalk.
Of course this is just my opinion - feel free to critizise.
How would you adress the current metagame with your sideboard?
Is Living Wish to slow for this deck to be good?

Enchantress

//Creatures (4)
4x Argothian Enchantress

//Enchantments (31)
4x Elephant Grass
4x Enchantress's Presence
1x Humility
2x Mirri's Guile
2x Oblivion Ring
1x Runed Halo
1x Sigil of the Empty Throne
3x Solitary Confinement
4x Sterling Grove
4x Utopia Sprawl
4x Wild Growth
1x Words of War

//Instants (3)
2x Enlightened Tutor
1x Crop Rotation

//Lands (20)
8x Forest
1x Karakas
3x Plains
1x Savannah
2x Serra's Sanctum
1x Taiga
4x Windswept Heath

//Sorceries (2)
2x Replenish

///Sideboard (15)
2x Aura of Silence
2x City of Solitude
1x Ground Seal
2x Journey to Nowhere
1x Karmic Justice
4x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Runed Halo
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon
1x Enlightened Tutor

[anonymos]

How would you adress the current metagame with your sideboard?
Is Living Wish to slow for this deck to be good?

//Lands (20)
8x Forest
1x Karakas
3x Plains
1x Savannah
2x Serra's Sanctum
1x Taiga
4x Windswept Heath

///Sideboard (15)
2x Aura of Silence
2x City of Solitude
1x Ground Seal
2x Journey to Nowhere
1x Karmic Justice
4x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Runed Halo
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon
1x Enlightened Tutor

I'm not sure how I feel about 20 lands. Seems a smidge light to me. I've played 22 for a while and sometimes feel like I want 23.

Why is the 3rd E. Tutor in the board? Journey is something I've thought about as O. Ring 5 and 6 but haven't tested myself.

Why no Green Sun's Zenith?

[JanoschEausH]

I'm not sure how I feel about 20 lands. Seems a smidge light to me. I've played 22 for a while and sometimes feel like I want 23.

Why is the 3rd E. Tutor in the board? Journey is something I've thought about as O. Ring 5 and 6 but haven't tested myself.

Why no Green Sun's Zenith?

I feel pretty good with 20 lands actually. I have tested 21 with Horizon Canopy but that felt too much already. Most of the time i want to topdeck an enchantment. With 20 Lands you will miss some landdrops for sure but if you draw enough Wild Growth or Sprawl you should be fine. Mirri's Guile helps too!

The 3rd E. Tutor might aswell be another Graveyard hate like Wheel. I just like the flexibility it gives :)

I have considered GSZ for a long time and i think it might be real good but i dont know what to cut... The first thing might be Crop Rotation but i dont want to give up on the tutors since i would play 2 GSZ at minimum...

The Journeys were awesome all the time. I board them against RUG/Maverick/Aggro/Show and Tell Decks. They are really giving alot of extra turns.

In the current metagame i feel like flexibility is the most precious characteristic of this deck. In most games dealing with the board state is more important than stacking Enchantress effects. I think thats the reason why i like to play that much hate + tutors.

[rxavage]

I have no experience with Enchantress but when I first got into legacy I want'ed to build a UW replenish deck now with academy rector, and a bunch of one of enxhantments long with the usual cards. Anyone know of anything decent? this is what I've come up with atm, any suggestions are welcome.


4 Academy Rector
4 Replenish
4 Hesitation
1 Omniscience
1 Dream Halls
1 Opalescence
1 Decree of silence
1 Propaganda
1 Proper Burial
1 Parallax Tide
1 Parallax Wave
1 Parallel Thoughts
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Decree of Silence
1 Attunement
3 Enlightened tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder

21 Land

I Don't know if dropping a bunch of enchaments and animating them with Opalescence and gaining life from Proper Burial then Replenishing is competitive but it seems like a fun thing so any help would be appreciated. Maybe I should add Auratog or Phantatog. I don't know I just now I'd like to abuse Replenish and Academy Rector as much as I can.

[novatinhu]

PS: Sry for my bad english!

Hello guys Im very happy to said that I made it AGAIN, and won today in my weekly
legacy event, I made some changes and the final list is:


Lands

6 Forest
4 Windswept Heath
2 Plains
2 Serra's Sanctum
2 Savannah
1 Taiga
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Wooded Foothills


Creatures

4 Argothian Enchantress
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Spells

4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Elephant Grass
4 Wild Growth
4 Sterling Grove
4 Enchantress's Presence
3 Solitary Confinement
2 Mirri's Guile
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Replenish
1 Words of War
1 Karmic Justice
1 Runed Halo
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne

Sideboard

1 Solitary Confinement
1 Karmic Justice
1 Ground Seal
2 Wheel of Sun and Moon
3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Stony Silence
1 Aura of Silence
3 Lignify (Against Thalia, Canonist and etc.)
1 Humility


I played against:

Round 1:
vz. Burn, Won.
Very easy match, G1 and G2 without problem, just lock him in turn 3.

Round 2:
vs.DragonStompy, Won.
Won G1 whithout problem and G2 too, but im VERY VERY luck becouse this is an realy hard to beat deck to us.

Round 3:
vs.GW Maverick, Won.
Won G1 whithout problem as usual, G2 I lost because he rush me, G3 I won in the last turn of the 5 turns count, very good match.

Round 4:
vs.Belche, Lose.
Lost both games in an roll, he stars and beclher me in turn 0, and in G2 I start and he goblin (20) me in turn 1 (no elephant grass in hand, but with leyline in table :cry:).

Semi-finals:
vs. Death and taxes, Won.
Won G1 very very easy and G2 too, I think this match is something about 95% chance of win.

Finals:
vs.Belcher from Round 4, Won.
G1 he misscount mana generation and lose the hand without finish me I lock he 2 turns latter, G2 he start and pass, I star with leyline in table and have a full hand to backup (with elephant grass) o I won.


Cya

[JanoschEausH]

I have no experience with Enchantress but when I first got into legacy I want'ed to build a UW replenish deck now with academy rector, and a bunch of one of enxhantments long with the usual cards. Anyone know of anything decent? this is what I've come up with atm, any suggestions are welcome.


4 Academy Rector
4 Replenish
4 Hesitation
1 Omniscience
1 Dream Halls
1 Opalescence
1 Decree of silence
1 Propaganda
1 Proper Burial
1 Parallax Tide
1 Parallax Wave
1 Parallel Thoughts
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Decree of Silence
1 Attunement
3 Enlightened tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder

21 Land

I Don't know if dropping a bunch of enchaments and animating them with Opalescence and gaining life from Proper Burial then Replenishing is competitive but it seems like a fun thing so any help would be appreciated. Maybe I should add Auratog or Phantatog. I don't know I just now I'd like to abuse Replenish and Academy Rector as much as I can.

I'm afraid such a list is not competetive. You open yourself too much for graveyard hate by relying so much on Replenish. I have tried a Enchantment Control List a long time ago which played 4 Opalescence and 4 Parallax Wave. It's pretty funny to lock your opponents but it's not competetive because there is too much hate running around and most of the decks are too fast (Nimble Mongoose...).

And btw: If you play Academy Rector you need a way to kill it at will or it will never happen.


@novatinhu: Im wondering why you play Emrakul maindeck. In my experience i never wanted to have it on my starting hand and i never wanted to draw it either. It's always better to draw another enchantment. Besides, it works against Replenish.

[ESG]

@rxavage: Given that there are no Enchantresses in that deck, I would say it fails the first test.

You want the New and Developmental thread.


@ JanoschEausH: I run 20 lands in my build, but the Serra's Sanctum doesn't come online until Turn 2 at the earliest, so it's more like we're playing 18 lands. I occasionally feel the need for one more, but the deck also floods, so I don't know. I'm pretty comfortable with 20 lands. Crop Rotation seems like it would clash too much with the Wild Growths and Utopia Sprawls, pushing you to dump them all on one land so that you can Rotate the unenchanted one. Also, if it's countered, you still lose the land. I feel it's a good card in a deck like Aggro Loam or Lands, but I don't think I would want it here. Green Sun's Zenith is better than Living Wish. I might even argue that Worldly Tutor is better than Living Wish. The only benefit I see to running Living Wish is that it can grab a techy land or creature, like maybe a Peacekeeper in Game 2, assuming they sided out their removal. But, yeah, it's slow and it steers you into running a wishboard instead of sideboard. This thread never came to agreement on Emrakul, but I have been happy with the one-of in my build and will give you my reasons: 1) He ends games faster than the other win conditions, which is relevant when you're in a big tournament and you're going to Game 3 against a slow deck or a slow player. 2) He's great to drop off a Show and Tell or a Hypergenesis. 3) He's uncounterable. I once won a game where my opponent had CounterTop assembled with Force of Will backup plus an Ethersworn Canonist and a Rule of Law on the table. 4) He wins independently of your Enchantress effects. 5) He's a free Feldon's Cane that greatly reduces the chance you'll deck yourself when going off. 6) He improves your matchup somewhat against decks that want to mill your library with Brainfreeze or Painter + Grindstone. He has drawbacks, sure, but so do all the win cons.

[Masamune]

Does anyone would tell me what are the benefits to run Humility than Moat? Maybe run both instead?

[Freggle]

To back-up ESG Emrakul is a solid Enchantress win con. Actually, it is one of the best and arguably the best win con in MTG today. The pros to run him are numerous as he can win through disgusting board states, and swing loosing games. The cons... well I can think of only 1 it is :1::5: mana.

Let us not forget though Enchantress at it's heart is a ramp deck, and there are printed enchantments that do trick him into play.

On Humility it is very good at destroying other peoples plans. It makes Emrakul, Grizzy, Ethersworn, Thalia, Gaddock, Qasali... whomever all vanilla 1/1's.

The problem is it also makes your Argothian Enchantress a shroudless vanilla 1/1 disabling the decks engine.

Moat on the other hand leaves everything as is, and only stops non-fliers. So Emrakul, Grizzy, Delver, all can still swing in for damage not to mention that Ethersworn, gaddock, and Thalia can all statically mess with you. Frankly from my point of view Moat is a dead / sideboard card in today's meta, and certainly not worth the monitary investment in the cardboard.

In the end neither of them are great in traditional enchatress, and I certainly wouldn't waste slots on both together.

If I were to try and build a humility version I would look to try it with Opalescence to gain advantage via the timestamp rules of Magic.

If I were to play Moat I may play with at least (1) Emrakul of my own, or as long as traditional Enchantress splashes red for Words of War I'd see what Gravity Sphere could do in conjunction with Moat for you.

It just depends on which style of enchantress suits your play style / meta better.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

ESG - How did you get to 15 mana against Rule of Law/Cannonist, with Countertop (that would presumably counter all 1 mana enchantments like Wild Growth)? Did he not have any kind of pressure?

The idea that Emrakul "wins through hate" relies on the assumption that the "hate" doesn't stop our mana production. But to get to 15 mana realistically, we need a moderate to large Sanctum. But how do you get that Sanctum active through hate?

Consider the situation where your opponent has assembled Countertop and Canonist. That's obviously very bad news for any enchantress deck. Even if you got a few enchantments to stick before the Countertop wall came out, let's say, 5, you need 10 more lands to cast Emrakul. That's with Canonist hitting you, if nothing else. If you can land a Moat, an O. Ring or a Seal of Cleansing/Primordium through the Countertop, you can ease the pressure of the Canonist at least. If you can't, you can drop a land a turn.

The number of times you win that race because of Emrakul is gonna pretty marginal. It'll happen, but not that often. That's sort of the case with most of the "pros" to running Emrakul. They happen on occasion, and those in favor of Emrakul would argue that all these marginal benefits make up for the times that he's dead weight. I disagree; it's always easy to see the times that a splashy card saved you. It can be tough to notice when one more cheap, useful card would have pulled you out.

[ESG]

@Spatula: I was playing Carpet of Flowers. He had a lot of islands in play. I also got a few Wild Growth effects down before CounterTop lock was online. I believe he Forced or otherwise countered the first two enchantress effects I tried to play, and then he dropped more lock pieces. He didn't know I was running an Emrakul. Unless they have discard, I generally try to hold my Sanctum until what I would call the fundamental turn of the matchup, when I'm going to get maximum value out it. To each his own, but I'll take Emrakul over Moat any day, mainly because of the flexibility of the card.

[caiomarcos]

@Spatula: I was playing Carpet of Flowers. He had a lot of islands in play. I also got a few Wild Growth effects down before CounterTop lock was online. I believe he Forced or otherwise countered the first two enchantress effects I tried to play, and then he dropped more lock pieces. He didn't know I was running an Emrakul. Unless they have discard, I generally try to hold my Sanctum until what I would call the fundamental turn of the matchup, when I'm going to get maximum value out it. To each his own, but I'll take Emrakul over Moat any day, mainly because of the flexibility of the card.

Clearly the more powerful, decisive card here is Carpet of Flowers, not Emrakul. Gaea's Revenge would give oyu the game the same way, maybe even wthout carpet of flowers.

How can a card be flexible costing 15 mana? I don't see Emrakul as flexible, but as a powerful finisher. Still, the only reason to play it is if you are expecting to face Show and Tell decks one after the other.

[Freggle]

The two worst MU's for Enchantress are combo and control. In today's meta combo primarily revolves around resolving / tricking in some fattie to beat face with. Emrakul (as mentioned above) gives you something to trick in or Legend Rule with on an opponents Show and Tell.

Emrakul will also make a mockery of an enchantress lock in the mirror sporting the annihilator 6 . ...or any other lock with permanents (outside of Ensnaring Bridge-ish type cards). It also has evasion, and protection where Gaea's Revenge does not. Revenge will eat STP's all day because there is absolutely no other target for them. I would find it hard to believe that Countertop could not have found one to deal with it.

EDIT: IS SHOULD READ STP CAN NOT TARGET IT, BUT GOYF... COULD BLOCK. I DONT' SEE IT BEING THE SAME

vs. Control it's uncounterable, and when discarded it does not go away. It always in the deck somewhere threatening a win.

I don't play with Replenish because the meta is too fast. Is someone sweeps your board with mass enchantment hate they are likely going lethal anyhow.

If you have all of your stuff countered and you go for the back breaking Replenish I have found I just gave my opponent a target to pierce or daze (could be bad play though) ...but against RUG delver you don't have the time to wait.

So the fact that Emrakul shuffles your yard to your library is more of a blessing to builds I run than most others. I can see where that is a problem for mos though.

The fact is however is that Emrakul DOES in fact improve these two MUs alone, and only improves them more when played in conjunction with Defense of the Heart and / or Forbidden Orchard. I have won MANY games with Defense / Orchard never seeing an enchantress long before we would win normally.

It also makes the common combo hate we see look ...well stupid. "Ethersworn!? ...OKAY!"

@ Carpet of Flowers - Given the meta is primarily blue it is not a terrible call to main deck this card. It is AMAZING at racing taxing tempo counters Daze / Spell Pierce. ...and is a 1CC green enchantment. The exact thing the deck needs to dig most of the time. It also improves most combo giving you the extra mana to race their combo with our defense. It is a very powerful Enchantment.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

First of all, there's no reason to not run Replenish. Ever. Not running amazingly powerful cards because they can be Dazed or Spell Pierced makes no sense.

Secondly, arguing that Emrakul is good against control is pretty silly. In the game with Ethersworn Canonist and Carpet of Flowers, we're pretty obviously talking about post-board, in which case StP isn't a factor, and any fatty would function the same. A green fatty would also be tutorable with GSZ, which is relevant. Either way it would belong in the SB.

If you need to start running additional cards to make Emrakul better, you've lost the deck's focus. You might as well just play Sneak and Show at that point.

[JanoschEausH]

Hey guys, I just won a little local Tournament (17 Players) with my Enchantress Build above. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?5302-Deck-Solitaire-(Enchantress)&p=656387&viewfull=1#post656387)

The Meta was like: 5 Stoneblade (4 Esper), 3 RUG Delver, 3 Maverick (1 with Black Splash), 1 UB Tezz Control, 1 Reanimator, 1 MUD, 1 Geddon Staxx, 1 Elfball and me.

It was a kinda nice meta for Enchantress and NOBODY was prepared against it.

I wont give you a detailed Report, cuz most games are so grindy - i forget 70% of it.

Round 1: Against Maverick (Black Splash)
Game1: Could stack a Turn 2 Enchantress to the board which was followed by 2 others in the next turns. Overran him with card advantage.
Game 2: Lost because of a stupid mistake: He has a board of 2 MoR and one KotR(4/4). Mother is equipped with Jitte (2 Counters). I'm on 8 life with enough Enchantress Effects and am able to lock him in the next turn when i survive the next combat step. I have a Runed halo and name somehow "Mother of Runes". Of course he kills me.
Game 3: I can stick 3 Enchantress Effects and have a hand of 2x O-Ring, 1x Journey to Nowhere and 1x Runed Halo. Of course i find no white source.

Lost 1:2
Standings: 0-0-1

Round 2: Got a bye! Yehaw!

Standings: 1-0-1

Round 3:Against Esper Stoneblade
Game 1: I can stick Enchantress Effects, play Humility which makes his Geist of Saint Traft a useless 1/1, remove Batterskull with Ring and lock him out of the game until he desperatly scoops.
Game 2: Same story as Game 1. At some Point he wastes his Egineered Explosives to kill a lot of cc1 Enchantments. I simply Replenish. Best card in this deck. Seriously.

Won 2:0
Standings: 2-0-1

Round 4:Against RUG-Delver
Game 1: He keeps on telling me how i can't win against his deck. I can stick a turn 2 daze-proof Enchantress to the board, resolve another one later and lock it to simply end him. When RUG doesnt have a clock and you can resolve a Enchantress Effect Turn 2 its really easy to win.
Game 2: He kills me quick Turn 4 or so. Delver, Mongoose, Goyf and no Elephant Grass in sight.
Game 3: I keep a removal-heavy hand and he wastes his counters on Presence and the like. None of his creatures stay on the battlefield for long. This game is grindy and he refuses to scoop, so at some point i have to ask the person next to me if i could enlarge my play area because i have that many permanents. I Replenished 2 times for alot of value. Best card. Period.

Won 2:1
Standings: 3-0-1

Round 5:In this round there will be wild pairings (random). My opponent is Black-maverick-guy from Round1
Game 1: Lost Game 1 really fast to 3 Qasali Pridemage and heavy preassure.
Game 2: I can resolve a fast Argothian which seems to be the best indicator today for winning. His Qasali Pridemages (he runs 4) decimate my enchantments but the Argothian stays and Replenish ends it. His Dark Confidant helps me with winning this time by revealing a lot of high CMC-Cards.
Game 3: He Thoughtseizes me 2 times and takes 2 Argothian. But luckily he took a greedy hand with 1 Land and gets punished for it. I can rebuild while he stays on one land. After he missed his landdrop the 3rd time i knew i won and played it calmly until he scooped.

Won 2:1
Standings: 4-0-1

I'm 1st and get M13 Boosters n Stuff. This was my first tournament with this Deck. I expected alot more unfair decks like Sneakshow as everybody else.
Of course i had some luck with getting a bye and maybe my opponents made some mistakes but in the end i won against RUG, Maverick and Stoneblade which are all DTB.

[Masamune]

Congratz! Can you share your decklist?

[andrebonotto]

Congratz! Can you share your decklist?



Hey guys, I just won a little local Tournament (17 Players) with my Enchantress Build above. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?5302-Deck-Solitaire-(Enchantress)&p=656387&viewfull=1#post656387)

(...)

[ESG]

@caiomarcos: Please go back a page and reread 1-6 of the reasons I gave JanoschEausH for why I play Emrakul in my list. There is no other single card in Magic that fulfills all those roles. Again, I'm not trying to change people's minds. This thread heavily debated Emrakul until people got tired of it. Some people like the card; others don't. I'm fine with that. Use what you've had success with, and I'll do likewise.

@JanoschEausH: Congrats on your win. It's always fun to surprise the local store with a different deck.

[JanoschEausH]

I will actually follow your advice and play Emrakul, the Aeons Torn in my board the next tournament. It would replace Crop Rotation. I figured most of the time i discarded Crop Rotation due to hand oversize or Confinement. If i discard Emrakul that way i get value off of it at least.
In 2 games in the tournament i really wished Crop Rotation was Emrakul for a fast and safe win.

To make that all work i will replace Humility with Karmic Justice. Humility makes no sense with Emrakul anymore and against the unfair decks i can still board it. On the other hand, every Stoneblade list plays Engineered Explosives against Tribal right now. I think Karmic Justice represents a good form of hinderance against EE.

My List is now as follows:

Enchantress

//Creatures (5)
4x Argothian Enchantress
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

//Enchantments (31)
4x Elephant Grass
4x Enchantress's Presence
1x Karmic Justice
2x Mirri's Guile
2x Oblivion Ring
1x Runed Halo
1x Sigil of the Empty Throne
3x Solitary Confinement
4x Sterling Grove
4x Utopia Sprawl
4x Wild Growth
1x Words of War

//Instants (2)
2x Enlightened Tutor

//Lands (20)
8x Forest
1x Karakas
3x Plains
1x Savannah
2x Serra's Sanctum
1x Taiga
4x Windswept Heath

//Sorceries (2)
2x Replenish

///Sideboard (15)
2x Aura of Silence
2x City of Solitude
2x Ground Seal
2x Journey to Nowhere
1x Humility
4x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Runed Halo
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon


I will play this next week at a big 150-Players Event. I hope it was not too rash to remove all those Griselbrand-hate from the board. Hopefully all those RUG and Stoneblade Decks keep Griselbrand at bay for me :)

[mrmaul558]

Hey guys. I'm looking to play Enchantress at the upcoming Starcity (Buffalo). I was wondering if you guys would help me tune a list.

What I'm starting with:
4 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Savannah
1 Taiga
2 Serra's Sanctum
5 Forest
2 Plains

4 Argothian Enchantress
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Sterling Grove
3 Solitary Confinement
4 Elephant Grass
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 Words of War
1 Humility
2 Runed Halo
2 Oblivion Ring

1 Crop Rotation
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Replenish

This is rough off the top of my head (missing a few cards). I can update later, but this is essentially the skeleton. What do you think? What meta cards should I run? What should the board look like?

[ForlornEgoist]

Decklist

Your list is rather standard so I won't comment too much on it. If you have access to 1-2 I'd consider running Karakas as it will help against cheated creatures as well as having synergy with Crop Rotation.

As for SB, given the meta, your main contenders will be RUG/UR, Maverick, Combo, and perhaps several UB/UBW Stoneblade variants.

We already have a solid MU against Stoneblade/Maverick leaving Combo (S&T/Reanimator/Dredge) and RUG/UR as the main threats. I might conside something like:

4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Warmth
2-3 Choke
2-3 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1-3 Misc. Slots

The Warmth is just a sample selection I might prefer. You can easily substitute it with any number of things including Aegis of Honor or Story Circle/Circle of Protection: Red.

The Misc. Slots can be anything else you might consider a threat. Depending on how prevalent I might consider GY-based combo like Dredge/Reanimator I might opt to run Surgical Extraction.

Forlorn Egoist

[JanoschEausH]

Hey guys. I'm looking to play Enchantress at the upcoming Starcity (Buffalo). I was wondering if you guys would help me tune a list.

What I'm starting with:
4 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Savannah
1 Taiga
2 Serra's Sanctum
5 Forest
2 Plains

4 Argothian Enchantress
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Sterling Grove
3 Solitary Confinement
4 Elephant Grass
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 Words of War
1 Humility
2 Runed Halo
2 Oblivion Ring

1 Crop Rotation
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Replenish

This is rough off the top of my head (missing a few cards). I can update later, but this is essentially the skeleton. What do you think? What meta cards should I run? What should the board look like?

I would suggest you run 2x Replenish. This card is so much win. I cant recomment Humility + Emrakul. better decide for one of them.

[waSP]

What's with people disparaging Emrakul alongside Humility. If you land Humility, you have the tools to win against most decks. If you need the Emrakul win, just use an Oblivion Ring and then Replenish your Sterling Groves. Failure of imagination, y'all.

[ESG]

@ mrmaul558: What are you expecting the field to look like at SCG Buffalo? This is the most important question.

I would recommend a fourth copy of Solitary Confinement before specific anti-burn cards. There are a number of decks that just can't interact with you once you land it. Obviously, you have to set up an enchantress first, but that's not hard to do when they don't have counterspells. In general, I feel like the Burn matchup is favorable to very favorable, so I would use that part of the sideboard on something else. Probably grave hate. Since you're running Enlightened Tutor in your build, I would definitely include a Tormod's Crypt in the sideboard. I also would vary the hate cards. The Dredge player is either going to attempt to go off Turn 1 or is going to Cabal Therapy you Turn 1. I prefer a suite of grave hate. Something like 1 Wheel, 1 Tormod's Crypt, 1 Surgical Extraction, 1 Faerie Macabre, 1 Ravenous Trap is very robust. I support ForlornEgoist's recommendation for Karakas. That card is very good. It's what you want against Sneak and Show and Reanimator, especially postboard when Reanimator brings in Show and Tell. I've never been impressed with Runed Halo. The double white is troublesome. I could see an argument for one, but two seems excessive. The only matchups I might want it in would be Storm decks and probably Painter decks, and I actually like other options over it there, too. Have you tried Green Sun's Zenith? Experience tells me it's the best tutor available for the deck, although Enlightened Tutor can also be strong.

[mrmaul558]

Here's my actual list as of right now:
2 Savannah
1 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Serra's Sanctum
2 Plains
5 Forest

4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Elephant Grass
4 Sterling Grove
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
3 Solitary Confinement

2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Runed Halo
1 City of Solitude
1 Humility
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 Replenish
1 Crop Rotation

2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Cards I have that could be SB'd:
2 Aura of SIlence
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Choke
3 Supression Field
2 Wheel of Sun and Moon
2 Vexing Shusher
1 Lignify
1 Replenish
2 Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 Aegis of Honor
1 City of Solitude
1 Stony Silence
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Karmic Justice
1 Ground Seal

This isn't all I have access to (I have some cash set aside to get some more pieces for the deck), but its what I have right now.


Your list is rather standard so I won't comment too much on it. If you have access to 1-2 I'd consider running Karakas as it will help against cheated creatures as well as having synergy with Crop Rotation.

I agree. I should be able to get 1 Karakas. But I don't replace a plains with it, right? Maybe a forest?


As for SB, given the meta, your main contenders will be RUG/UR, Maverick, Combo, and perhaps several UB/UBW Stoneblade variants.

We already have a solid MU against Stoneblade/Maverick leaving Combo (S&T/Reanimator/Dredge) and RUG/UR as the main threats. I might conside something like:

4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Warmth
2-3 Choke
2-3 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1-3 Misc. Slots

The Warmth is just a sample selection I might prefer. You can easily substitute it with any number of things including Aegis of Honor or Story Circle/Circle of Protection: Red.

I honestly don't think that I'll have to dedicate 4 SB slots to burn. I do like having 1x Aegis of Honor in the board, though.

And I've played with Leyline of Sanctity before... but I was never impressed with it. Is it actually worth playing?

I like 1x Lignify in the board too - against Show and Tell/Reanimator, among other things.

So:
4x Leyline of Sanctity
3x Choke
2x Wheel of Sun and Moon
1x Aegis of Honor
1x Lignify
1x Oblivion Ring
3x Misc.?


@ mrmaul558: What are you expecting the field to look like at SCG Buffalo? This is the most important question.

I don't know - I haven't actually played in a large Legacy event before, which is why I was turning here for help.


I would recommend a fourth copy of Solitary Confinement before specific anti-burn cards. There are a number of decks that just can't interact with you once you land it. Obviously, you have to set up an enchantress first, but that's not hard to do when they don't have counterspells. In general, I feel like the Burn matchup is favorable to very favorable, so I would use that part of the sideboard on something else. Probably grave hate. Since you're running Enlightened Tutor in your build, I would definitely include a Tormod's Crypt in the sideboard. I also would vary the hate cards. The Dredge player is either going to attempt to go off Turn 1 or is going to Cabal Therapy you Turn 1. I prefer a suite of grave hate. Something like 1 Wheel, 1 Tormod's Crypt, 1 Surgical Extraction, 1 Faerie Macabre, 1 Ravenous Trap is very robust. I support ForlornEgoist's recommendation for Karakas. That card is very good. It's what you want against Sneak and Show and Reanimator, especially postboard when Reanimator brings in Show and Tell. I've never been impressed with Runed Halo. The double white is troublesome. I could see an argument for one, but two seems excessive. The only matchups I might want it in would be Storm decks and probably Painter decks, and I actually like other options over it there, too. Have you tried Green Sun's Zenith? Experience tells me it's the best tutor available for the deck, although Enlightened Tutor can also be strong.

Dedicating 5 slots to graveyard hate isn't too much? How prevalent is Dredge in the meta right now?

I agree with Karakas.

Runed Halo just answers most everything that you lose to. Double white can be troublesome, but it is just a catch-all answer.

GSZ is actually in my list, I just forgot to add it the first time.

[ForlornEgoist]

I, myself, would never devote 4 slots in the SB to burn, particularly considering we have Leyline/Solitary to answer it. However, I was unsure as to which MU's you were looking to resolve and thusly I simply guessed based on the prevalence of RUG. Upping your Confinement count to 4 and running Leylines (+ that 1-of Aegis) is more than sufficient.

As far as GY-based strategies are concerned they're fairly prevalent however against Dredge our deck already has a solid MU based on their limited ability to remove Enchantments, especially problem ones like Grass. Running several pieces of GY hate such as Wheel or Crypt are definitely a necessity as GY hate can be viable in its own way against all the major combo players.

In regards to Leyline of Sanctity, yes, its a card worthy of being included as a x4 of. The reason being that it not only protects you against obvious threats (Burn, Discard) but it can be used in my minor faculties such as shutting down Intuition-based strategies. Of course a Turn 0 Leyline is not an auto-win as each combo has its own answer, however, it forces the player to dig for an answer which gives us time to stabalize.

For Karakas, yes, remove 1 Forest.

Forlorn Egoist

[mrmaul558]

I, myself, would never devote 4 slots in the SB to burn, particularly considering we have Leyline/Solitary to answer it. However, I was unsure as to which MU's you were looking to resolve and thusly I simply guessed based on the prevalence of RUG. Upping your Confinement count to 4 and running Leylines (+ that 1-of Aegis) is more than sufficient.

I really dislike the idea of 4 confinement - I've tried it before, and you just draw the card way more than you need to (and drawing multiples is just guaranteed life-tilt). How is 6x Tutors and 3x Confinement not enough??


In regards to Leyline of Sanctity, yes, its a card worthy of being included as a x4 of. The reason being that it not only protects you against obvious threats (Burn, Discard) but it can be used in my minor faculties such as shutting down Intuition-based strategies. Of course a Turn 0 Leyline is not an auto-win as each combo has its own answer, however, it forces the player to dig for an answer which gives us time to stabalize.

Maybe the combo decks I've played against in my local meta were just really good, but whenever I played Leyline T0, I could never get close to stabalizing before they had the answer and the combo.

[Freggle]

I added card tags for an easier read. I have also added a * next to what appears at first glance to be some of the weaker choices.


Here's my actual list as of right now:
2 Savannah
1 Taiga* - What's up with that?
4 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Serra's Sanctum* - The second one.
2 Plains
5 Forest

4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Elephant Grass
4 Sterling Grove
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
3 Solitary Confinement

2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Runed Halo* - Is there some secret tech? ...or does it just feel right?
1 City of Solitude
1 Humility - Humility, and Argothian is questionable/passable, but throw in Emrakul & GSZ and I'm lost.
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 Replenish
1 Crop Rotation* - I like it... for it's potential, but what are you so hard up for in this list?

2 Green Sun's Zenith*
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn


I agree. I should be able to get 1 Karakas. But I don't replace a plains with it, right? Maybe a forest?

Taiga. ...and if you could since Karakas deals with Thalia, Teeg, Grizzy, emrakul, Iona & Most reanimator targets I'd in sqeeze 2 over two Searra's Sanctum. I've been running it in my enchantress builds and it makes the deck much more rounded.


And I've played with Leyline of Sanctity before... but I was never impressed with it. Is it actually worth playing?

I too have experienced a similar fate with Leyline of Sanctity. It's the best that has been proposed thus far.

I have never tested it, but plan to I wonder if Gilded Light would function better? It's not an enchantment, so it has that going against it, but it does have surprise and draw. This could give the combo player the perception that the coast is clear, and let them spend all this energy comboing off just to Gilded Light them, then we lock them out while they rebuild.

We just need to stop the fast win. Good combo deck also run targeted discard so I don't know.

tags with 1-5 ratings on them:

So:
4x Leyline of Sanctity(3) - Hated to well
3x Choke(5) - If it sticks you pretty golden but Carpet of Flowers is cheaper and is a thorn in U's side too
2x Wheel of Sun and Moon(3) - Needs faster GY backup like Crypt, Bojuka Bog, or Surgical
1x Aegis of Honor(1.5) - Leyline or gilded should be fine, and stops other things.
1x Lignify(1) - When would you want to do this over O. Ringing something?
1x Oblivion Ring(5)
3x Misc.?

I think your graveyard suite should be.

1 Bojuka Bog - Your targeted free hate to work with Crop Rotation (to rotate from or into) & can not be cabal therapy-ed
1 Tormod's Crypt - Targeted free hate to work with Enlightened tutor
2 Surgical Extraction - Targets the graveyard not the player. Also good against combo.

...If you loose the Green Sun's I'd try a Grafdigger's Cage or two. these are good against a fair amount decks. Natural Order, Green Sun's, Dredge, Hypergenisis, reanimator, zombies ...and I'm sure many others. It is also an Enlightened target.

gotta go. I'll brew on it a bit, and come back with more if the conversation is still going.

[mrmaul558]

I added card tags for an easier read. I have also added a * next to what appears at first glance to be some of the weaker choices.

Wow, I feel really dumb. There is supposed to be 1x Words of War in that list. It will be the 61st card, I think. (Suggestions for cuts?)

2 Serra's Sanctum is, I've found, the perfect number. You rarely run the risk of drawing a second one, but having the second one is just better than putting another plains. Being able to Crop Rotation the first one away for the second one in a pinch is always a tech play, as well. And if they get rid of one, you always have a second.

Runed Halo just answers everything you could possibly want it to answer. There are very few threats it doesn't take care of.

Humility >>> Moat in the current meta, I think. You can get around having no Argothians, but when your opponents (delver, reanimator, Show and Tell, Maverick to name a few) are running off of 1/1's, they are MUCH further behind. And if you need to go for the Emrakul kill, you can O-Ring your Humility the turn you need to play it.

Crop Rotation can get a white source in the pinchiest of pinches, but most often it finds a Serra's Sanctum and allows you to "go off" out of nowhere.


tags with 1-5 ratings on them:
So:
4x Leyline of Sanctity(3) - Hated to well
3x Choke(5) - If it sticks you pretty golden but Carpet of Flowers is cheaper and is a thorn in U's side too
2x Wheel of Sun and Moon(3) - Needs faster GY backup like Crypt, Bojuka Bog, or Surgical
1x Aegis of Honor(1.5) - Leyline or gilded should be fine, and stops other things.
1x Lignify(1) - When would you want to do this over O. Ringing something?
1x Oblivion Ring(5)
3x Misc.?

Lignify gets around Iona on white, its cheaper (and not W) than Oblivion Ring. Its another thing to Show and Tell on dudes (it does get on an Emrakul, stops Griselbrand activations just as well as Oblivion Ring does). Maybe its not better than O-Ring since Griselbrand > Iona, but I like having 1x. I think I have the room, especially since it hits all the T1 decks.


I think your graveyard suite should be.

1 Bojuka Bog - Your targeted free hate to work with Crop Rotation (to rotate from or into) & can not be cabal therapy-ed
1 Tormod's Crypt - Targeted free hate to work with Enlightened tutor
2 Surgical Extraction - Targets the graveyard not the player. Also good against combo.

I like the Bojuka Bog/Crop Rotation tech, but any enchantment can be tutored up as well. Crop Rotation in response to some dredge player going off seems sweet though.


...If you loose the Green Sun's I'd try a Grafdigger's Cage or two. these are good against a fair amount decks. Natural Order, Green Sun's, Dredge, Hypergenisis, reanimator, zombies ...and I'm sure many others. It is also an Enlightened target.

gotta go. I'll brew on it a bit, and come back with more if the conversation is still going.

I love Green Sun's Zenith. It makes so many more hands keepable, gets around Spell Snare, keeps your live Enchantress draws high, etc.

[ESG]

@mrmaul: If you've never played in a large Legacy event, it could be rough sailing. There will be all sorts of decks there, especially in the first two rounds. If you're unfamiliar with any given matchup, it will be much more difficult. I don't know what Buffalo's local meta is like. Based on past SCG Opens, a large chunk of the field will be running what are considered the top-tier decks: RUG Delver, Stoneblade, Maverick, Dredge, Reanimator, Sneak and Show, etc. If the impression is that Merfolk has started pushing out the graveyard and combo decks, then I would expect people to be jamming Goblins or Elves, or maybe even trying to revive Zoo in some form. Depending on where you are in the cycle, certain decks will be more popular choices. Local preferences are also important. Additionally, cheap decks are more likely to show up than really expensive decks, so you'll see way more Affinity, Dredge, Burn and Elves than you'll see Imperial Painter, High Tide, Aluren, Lands and Turbo Drazi. When you get to the venue, look around the room and take note of what you see. If you see 30 people sleeving up Storm decks, then you'd better have a sideboard for that matchup. Or, even better, a fallback deck that doesn't get killed by that matchup.

If you want to beat Storm combo, you have to devote a ton of slots to the task -- to the point that you usually give up percentages in other matchups. Chant effects are better than Gilded Light, but I favor being proactive. Leylines are good in that you have a turn or two to drop your second hate card. Without Leyline, the Storm player typically Duresses or Thoughtseizes your hate card on Turn 1 and then goes off one or two turns later. Stony Silence, Aura of Silence, Null Rod and Rule of Law are decent. Gaddock Teeg is a bit awkward but can be good at times. Ultimately, Enchantress is not what you want to be playing if you run into Storm combo. You can beat it, but you need 1) A plan for that particular strain of Storm combo; 2) Enough hate cards so that you don't mull to oblivion looking for them; 3) Impeccable play; 4) Luck.


Lignify doesn't work the same way as O Ring with Show and Tell.

Per cdr in an old rules thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16235-Show...-and-Tell): "Lignify has no triggered ability. Lignify does not target when it's put into play by an effect (you're not playing it). It comes into play enchanting something. Iona is not in play when Lignify is coming into play."

Edit: I believe you can get it on an Emrakul via Replenish.

[Freggle]

Wow, I feel really dumb. There is supposed to be 1x Words of War in that list. It will be the 61st card, I think. (Suggestions for cuts?)

No need to feel dumb.

Personally I would cut a Green Sun's Zenith or the City of Solitude

Green Sun's because while it's good it is the card the deck least leans on.

City could also get the cut since you mostly want to top deck tutor on your opponents turn, and city shuts that off. Enchantress is good at playing through a wall of counters as long as an enchantress effect is in play. Your in deep and getting one to resolve so I can see it leaving.


Okay, so lets just say we cut the City here is where we are at:


2 Savannah
1 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Serra's Sanctum
2 Plains
4 Forest
1 Karakas

4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Elephant Grass
4 Sterling Grove
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
3 Solitary Confinement

2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Runed Halo
1 Words of War
1 Humility
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 Replenish
1 Crop Rotation

2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

This gives the main deck the highest flexibility/ adaptability without messing with it's core.


Runed Halo just answers everything you could possibly want it to answer. There are very few threats it doesn't take care of.

I used to play with Runed Halo and I know what you mean. If you want to rock it, I'm not that against it. Especially since it does help the combo MU a known enchantress problem. I'm actually more on board with Runed Halo main then I am Leyline of Sanctity in the board.

Both hate Jace so that's nice too.


Humility >>> Moat in the current meta, I think. There is no doubt that this is true. I suppose this is no worse then Maverick running Teeg (who cuts off their own Green Sun's / Elspeth)


Crop Rotation can get a white source in the pinchiest of pinches, but most often it finds a Serra's Sanctum and allows you to "go off" out of nowhere.

I'm a fan of the rotation.


Lignify gets around Iona on white, its cheaper (and not W) than Oblivion Ring. Its another thing to Show and Tell on dudes (it does get on an Emrakul, stops Griselbrand activations just as well as Oblivion Ring does). Maybe its not better than O-Ring since Griselbrand > Iona, but I like having 1x. I think I have the room, especially since it hits all the T1 decks.

Off of a Show and Tell your opponent can trigger Grizzy after the O-ring trigger is on the stack. Lignify can only attach to (not target) something that has been on the battlefield. It's not my cup of tea, but it's not my deck.



I like the Bojuka Bog/Crop Rotation tech, but any enchantment can be tutored up as well. Crop Rotation in response to some dredge player going off seems sweet though.

That is actually a very strong play, and lowers the overall curve of the deck.

Tutoring for an enchantment I'm afraid is too slow. You have to be able to stop a T2 Entomb -> Reanimate

Additionally, Bog from hand can not be countered, or targeted by discard it is a nightmare for dredge. or any graveyard based deck.

I think for your deck it could be a good way to combat combo / GY trix.

So Current SB then:
1 Bojuka Bog - Combo / GY Hate
1 Tormod's Crypt - Combo / GY hate
2 Surgical Extraction - Combo / GY hate
1 Oblivion Ring - Should this be main, and something else be SB Oring is good.
4 Leyline of Sanctity - We're both not fans, but it's the best. A beast against discard, and give you more game v. combo
3 Choke - Control / Folks / RUG Delver (This should probably be Carpet of Flowers ...carpet very good against RUG or a mix thereof)
1 Lignify - ?

2 ? More Humility - For the fattie decks.

Or 3 carpets / 2 choke?


Honorable mention:

I'm haven't been a huge fan of it, but Sacred Ground could be pretty sweet at keeping your utility lands around.

Edit: Lignify can get on Emrakul via Replenish provided Emrakul was on the battlefield at the resolution or Replenish.

It could also attach to Shrouded / Hexproof creatures.

Edit 2: It should also be mentioned that with the addition of Karakas the deck can now fairly safely take infinate turns by bouncing Emrakul post extra turn attack. Likely win more, but sometimes not.

[JanoschEausH]

2 Savannah
1 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Serra's Sanctum
2 Plains
4 Forest
1 Karakas

4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Elephant Grass
4 Sterling Grove
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
3 Solitary Confinement

2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Runed Halo
1 Words of War
1 Humility
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 Replenish
1 Crop Rotation

2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn



This list looks interesting. Im also a fan of Crop Rotation. In my list it shares a spot with Emrakul. What i would do with your list:

1. Adding Mirri's Guile. This card is so awesome and makes much more Hands keepable. Actually im running 2. Would love to run 3. Try it, it provides so much better topdecks. I was wondering why no one brought it up until now.

2. Play at least 2 (!) Replenish. Replenish has such strong lategame power. Against all the top-decks you want 2 at anytime. Even drawing multiples is no Problem. It feels so good to bring back all the countered enchantments. It even helps to get some extra turns against lethal board states. Simply Sacrifice Confinement, draw a card for turn (hope they have no Bolt) and reanimate it. Saved my ass in some games.

3. It's only my oppinion, but i wont run Emrakul + Humility + GSZ together. Humility can be a hinderance. I have played it maindeck at my last tournaments but im considering to exchange it with Karmic Justice. Too many Deeds and Engineered Explosives out there for my taste.
Also keep in mind: Everybody is preparing for Tribaldecks. Enchantress suffers alot from the collateral damage. (Thats another point for 2nd Replenish)

4. In the end i would cut the GSZ. It's an awesome card but least needed i guess. Or Try 1 Tutor and 1 GSZ.

Thats my 2cent.

[mrmaul558]

Personally I would cut a Green Sun's Zenith or the City of Solitude

I like City of Solitude cut far more than GSZ. It makes the hands so much more keepable, more enchantress's to push through counters, etc.



2 Savannah
1 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Serra's Sanctum
2 Plains
4 Forest
1 Karakas

4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Elephant Grass
4 Sterling Grove
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
3 Solitary Confinement

2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Runed Halo
1 Words of War
1 Humility
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 Replenish
1 Crop Rotation

2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

This gives the main deck the highest flexibility/ adaptability without messing with it's core.

I like this list a lot. Does anyone have any more suggestions for it?



I used to play with Runed Halo and I know what you mean. If you want to rock it, I'm not that against it. Especially since it does help the combo MU a known enchantress problem. I'm actually more on board with Runed Halo main then I am Leyline of Sanctity in the board.

I feel you there... it just sucks that there's nothing better to run than Leyline.


Off of a Show and Tell your opponent can trigger Grizzy after the O-ring trigger is on the stack. Lignify can only attach to (not target) something that has been on the battlefield. It's not my cup of tea, but it's not my deck.

Just realized that Lignify doesn't interact with Show and Tell the way I wanted it to... Hmm. Maybe I don't want that in my board?


That is actually a very strong play, and lowers the overall curve of the deck.

Instead of Lignify, 1x Bojuka Bog and 1x additional Crop Rotation in the board?

So Current SB then:
1 Crop Rotation - Gets Bog, added "grab games out of nowhere sometimes"
1 Bojuka Bog - Combo / GY Hate
1 Tormod's Crypt - Combo / GY hate
2 Surgical Extraction - Combo / GY hate (Necessary with 1 more Crop Rotation? I'd almost rather run 2x Bojuka Bog in the yard)
1 Oblivion Ring - 1x Runed Halo switch with the MB?
4 Leyline of Sanctity - A beast against discard, and give you more game v. combo
3 Choke - Control / Folks / RUG Delver
2 Carpet of Flowers - Control / Folks / RUG Delver

[mrmaul558]

1. Adding Mirri's Guile. This card is so awesome and makes much more Hands keepable. Actually im running 2. Would love to run 3. Try it, it provides so much better topdecks. I was wondering why no one brought it up until now.

I like the card in theory as well (with 7x fetches), but there's just no room if I want to be on the Words of War/Sigil/Emrakul/GSZ plan. I sacrifice Mirri's Guile for the versatility of my wincons.


2. Play at least 2 (!) Replenish. Replenish has such strong lategame power. Against all the top-decks you want 2 at anytime. Even drawing multiples is no Problem. It feels so good to bring back all the countered enchantments. It even helps to get some extra turns against lethal board states. Simply Sacrifice Confinement, draw a card for turn (hope they have no Bolt) and reanimate it. Saved my ass in some games.

Before I ran Words of War, I played 2x Replenish. I do think it is the right number, and I might playtest the second one as card 61, I'm not sure yet. My thoughts regarding a second one maindeck are that in Game 1, the second copy doesn't actually influence percentages much at all, I don't think. Against aggro, you should already be winning, against combo, its not going to help you get there, and against control, you're probably going to see the 1x in your deck, and a second one probably isn't going to make the difference. I can get behind finding room in the board for a second one, because I think it is VERY relevant in G2 and 3 against control/aggro-control decks since you have all your hate paired with it, which gives them more they have to counter, which makes it more likely Replenish is going to be relevant/gamebreaking.


3. It's only my opinion, but i wont run Emrakul + Humility + GSZ together. Humility can be a hinderance. I have played it maindeck at my last tournaments but im considering to exchange it with Karmic Justice. Too many Deeds and Engineered Explosives out there for my taste.
Also keep in mind: Everybody is preparing for Tribaldecks. Enchantress suffers alot from the collateral damage. (Thats another point for 2nd Replenish)

I think that is more your meta than anything else - against the T1 decks I expect to see quite a bit of at the SCG, I think it is absolutely the right call. I'm not sure I would run it in my weekly events in my local meta, but it makes a ton of sense for the big event.


4. In the end i would cut the GSZ. It's an awesome card but least needed i guess. Or Try 1 Tutor and 1 GSZ.

As stated above - I like the keepability this card gives your starting 7's far more than Mirri's Guile could. Sure, with Mirri's Guile + Fetches you are essentially getting the card out of the top 3 you want, but with GSZ, you're upping your Enchantress count to 10 (making so that you get slightly more than 1x in your starting hand on average - a very important piece to keepable hands in this deck), and your enchantress count in your deck is never lower than 3x.

Would Vexing Shusher be relevant in the board with GSZ? I'm having a hard time finding a situation where tutoring for an Enchantress wouldn't be better... but it seems worth consideration.

[Freggle]

@Surgical Vs. Bog

The two serve ultimately similar yet exceedingly different roles.

Although Bojuka Bog is very good at what it does it is still off color, comes into play tapped, and targets the player. Some graveyard players will play with Leyline of Sanctity or something like to get around yard hate. I think (1) Bog (2) Rotation is fine.

Surgical on the other hand is very powerful. It too is "free." but can be interacted with in your hand or on the stack. The main differences I see are Surgical targets the card in the graveyard (gets around player shroud / hexproof) eliminates all copies in all zones except in play or exile. Very different effect.

Just think if someone Tormod's Crypted your yard after having a Argothian countered. ...you would care very little. Now think of it being Extracted all of them, rough times (poor GSZ). Against some combo strategies it could be just as devastating. Lets say you extract a High Tide or a Dark Ritual for example.

There is a pretty powerful synergy between Surgical Extraction and Runed Halo. Surgical allows you to search your players hand and Library. So when playing combo you'll know how they boarded, and can make the right halo call.

There are other things to go on about but I'll chop it there.


@ Mirri's Guile
If you wanted to run Mirri's Guile you should do it in one of the Enlightend Tutor slots. Even though Enlightened is powerful it is card disadvantage (-1 card and 1 white to get what you want). Your deck is shuffle city with fetches, GSZ, Groves, Enlightened, & Crop. So it's likely you can manipulate your deck to see the 3 you want. I'd test it and see how it feels if you are on the fence about it. That change would up the enchantment count and give more stability to Solitary Confinement.

@Vexing Shusher
I'd table it. It's not that strong since this deck should play well through counters anyhow since we draw on cast. You could bank on your opponent boarding removal against us, thus making it more sticky. ...but if they don't it is the only thing they can plow providing value to an otherwise dead card. ...why bother.

I like the idea of an alt GSZ targets post board, but shusher is not it. It should have hexproof / shroud. Typically I like Dungrove Elder here, but you don't have the forests to support it, and I don't see a MU where you would want to do that.

When I proxied your deck last night on Cockatrice there were many hands in which I wanted Dryad Arbor for acceleration, but again it the only target for removal thing. Same goes for a Knight of the Reliquary to help you tutor your lands.

At any rate I hope you plan to do a tournament report.

[ESG]

IMO, Bojuka Bog isn't worth a slot. Dredge decks will either kill you with Zealot and you won't have a chance to drop the Bog, or they will Therapy you, see Bog, and make a bunch of zombies and/or Dread Return a Grave-Troll. The dominant form of Dredge right now runs LED and aims to go off on Turn 1 or Turn 2. Against Reanimator, you need removal that is either proactive or instant-speed. Unless you are running three or more copies of Crop Rotation, Bojuka Bog pales in comparison to other options. Also, it's really bad to draw it in your opening seven, because then your Crop Rotations are basically dead. It also opens up the possibility of you having a one-lander and getting off the Crop Rotation-->Bog but then being stuck unable to cast your spells while they start rebuilding. I like it and have used it in other decks, but I don't find it an attractive option here.

Lignify is still worth having, since Iona is still around and since you can tutor for it. It's also fine against aggro in general and stuff like Thalia.

Resist the temptation to play 61 cards. Whatever the last card is, it can't possibly be as good as your best card.

[mrmaul558]

@Surgical Vs. Bog
[...]
There are other things to go on about but I'll chop it there.

So...which would you suggest?


@ Mirri's Guile
If you wanted to run Mirri's Guile you should do it in one of the Enlightend Tutor slots. Even though Enlightened is powerful it is card disadvantage (-1 card and 1 white to get what you want). Your deck is shuffle city with fetches, GSZ, Groves, Enlightened, & Crop. So it's likely you can manipulate your deck to see the 3 you want. I'd test it and see how it feels if you are on the fence about it. That change would up the enchantment count and give more stability to Solitary Confinement.

I think going down to 1x Enlightened makes the deck quite worse - after SB, having 6 tutors for my 1x SB pieces is very crucial. And even before SB, having 2x extra copies of whatever I want in the deck is also very important.

I think if I were to run Mirri's Guile, I'd have to either cut the Emrakul plan, the Words of War plan, or the Sigil. And I don't think cutting any of my wincons is worth it.


When I proxied your deck last night on Cockatrice there were many hands in which I wanted Dryad Arbor for acceleration, but again it the only target for removal thing. Same goes for a Knight of the Reliquary to help you tutor your lands.

Yeah, I wouldn't be against 1x Dryad Arbor, but I just hate the fact that you can be stone rained so easily, leaving yourself with one less GSZ in your hand that could've been an enchantress.


At any rate I hope you plan to do a tournament report.

Obviously. ;)


IMO, Bojuka Bog isn't worth a slot. Dredge decks will either kill you with Zealot and you won't have a chance to drop the Bog, or they will Therapy you, see Bog, and make a bunch of zombies and/or Dread Return a Grave-Troll. The dominant form of Dredge right now runs LED and aims to go off on Turn 1 or Turn 2. Against Reanimator, you need removal that is either proactive or instant-speed. Unless you are running three or more copies of Crop Rotation, Bojuka Bog pales in comparison to other options. Also, it's really bad to draw it in your opening seven, because then your Crop Rotations are basically dead. It also opens up the possibility of you having a one-lander and getting off the Crop Rotation-->Bog but then being stuck unable to cast your spells while they start rebuilding. I like it and have used it in other decks, but I don't find it an attractive option here.

The idea is that I'd exile their yard before Zealot would be relevant, and hopefully that would give me enough time to stabilize. And I would play 2x Crop Rotation in the board if I went with the Bog plan, I think. And Forest, Crop Rotation in opening 7 isn't anywhere close to keepable.


Lignify is still worth having, since Iona is still around and since you can tutor for it. It's also fine against aggro in general and stuff like Thalia.

Does anyone actually play Iona over Griselbrand at this point??


Resist the temptation to play 61 cards. Whatever the last card is, it can't possibly be as good as your best card.

There is actually an argument to be made for land/spell/threat percentages, but I don't know if the percentages are actually in my favor here. The only reason I was even considering it is because a recent Enchantress Top 8 list had 61 cards in it.

[JanoschEausH]

When it comes to cutting things, my first targets were:

1. Emrakul (not tutorable) when you can cast him you should have already won. I tested him alot in the last days and found out, that i can almost never cast him anyways. When i could, i could have also won with Sigil in 2-3 safe turns.

2. Crop Rotation / Enlightened Tutor. As being said, its card disadvantage. Tutoring things is flexible (which i think is important) but this deck can live with 1x Enlightened Tutor just fine. It couldnt with only 1x GSZ. At least in my list i'm not running that much Silver Bullets to justify 2x Instant-Tutor

btw.: I really changed my mind about your GSZ-Plan. I tested it extensively in the last days too, and i think it gives alot of consitency. You are right - with GSZ many more hands become keepable. I will be running 2 myself.

[mrmaul558]

When it comes to cutting things, my first targets were:

1. Emrakul (not tutorable) when you can cast him you should have already won. I tested him alot in the last days and found out, that i can almost never cast him anyways. When i could, i could have also won with Sigil in 2-3 safe turns.

2. Crop Rotation / Enlightened Tutor. As being said, its card disadvantage. Tutoring things is flexible (which i think is important) but this deck can live with 1x Enlightened Tutor just fine. It couldnt with only 1x GSZ. At least in my list i'm not running that much Silver Bullets to justify 2x Instant-Tutor

btw.: I really changed my mind about your GSZ-Plan. I tested it extensively in the last days too, and i think it gives alot of consitency. You are right - with GSZ many more hands become keepable. I will be running 2 myself.

Sometimes though, you just need to win immediately. Emrakul does that, and does it well (despite the infinite turns with Karakas). I used to run 3x Sigil as my main wincon, but I actually like being able to choose which way I want to win the game between Words of War, Sigil and Emmy.

I might test 1x Enlightened Tutor, but I really think 2 is the right number if you're going to run it. 1x just doesn't seem like it actually adds anything tangible to the deck. And Crop Rotation isn't card disadvantage if it allows you to dump your hand into enchantress effects on early turns where you have no business doing so (Getting Serra's Sanctum with that card is so. good.)

And I'm glad someone else agrees with me about GSZ. :)

[ESG]

I know that's what the Bog plan is. My argument is that 1) When you draw Bog, it's terrible; 2) When you draw Crop Rotation in a one-lander it's probably terrible. This isn't the case for other forms of graveyard hate, and if you're going to mull to your hate, it ought to not put additional constraints on the keepability of the hand. For instance, if your hand is Forest, Wild Growth effect, Tormod's Crypt, Argothian Enchantress and almost any other combination of cards, it's an easy keep.

Reanimator often runs Iona in the sideboard and won't always pick Griselbrand over it. Players running budget lists or deviating from the standard list often run Iona in the main. Your call.

As for recent well-performing lists and 61 cards, I could counter that there was a Charbelcher player who ran a 15 Island sideboard and made the elimination rounds, and that's clearly not ideal.

In any case, test the heck out of your list, scout the field when you get to the tournament center so you have a general idea of what's there, and don't miss your upkeep triggers. Good luck.

[Freggle]

So...which would you suggest?

Both. Look ESG is right. There are situations where bog is just terrible. ...but, there are situations where bog can be absolutely brilliant.

If you are playing dredge and Bog is in your opener it's good. They can not get it out of your hand. If they Cabal and see it hey will play slower and more cautious, and try and get you to use it. This could give you time to set up start drawing Surgical the pain points and win.

Vs. Reanimator Crypt is more often than not better than bog. ...but in the opener where you have crypt and your on the draw and they have the nuts expect it to be Spell pierced/Stifled or post board bounced and equally as worthless.

The extra Crop Rotation can also get Karakas to bounce Iona (even on white much better then Lignify IMO) / Grizzy... or any other annoyance.

The point is there will always be situations where you plan mulligan, and just get pantsed. Understand what you plan to do. Try and execute it, and hope for the best. I have personally learned the hard way do not over mulligan looking for the perfect MU hand. Just look for a good playable hand. I've lost games looking for the perfect hate where just a good start could win it.

Your yard hate cards for :wg:enchantress are with my MU ratings 1-5:

Tormod's Crypt - Targets Player
Reanimator - 4
Dredge - 5
Combo - 3
Random Yard MU - 5

Weak against Stifle and good players, can be interacted with on the stack, and bounced.

Surgical Extraction - Targets card in yard
Reanimator - 4
Dredge - 5
Combo - 4
Random Yard MU - 4

Weak to counter magic

Bojuka Bog - Targets player
Reanimator - 3 ...with rotation - 4
Dredge - 5
Combo - 3 w/wo rotation
Random Yard MU - 5

Weak to stifle, and fast combo-y yard stuff.

Leyline of the Void - Targets nothing
Reanimator - 5
Dredge - 5
Combo - 4
Random Yard MU - 5

Must mulligan to. Weak to bounce.

Faerie Macabre - Targets yard
Reanimator - 4
Dredge - 3
Combo - 5
Random Yard MU - 3

Weak to Stifle and discard.

Graffdigger's Cage - Targets nothing
Reanimator - 4
Dredge - 5
Combo - 1
Random Yard MU - 3

Weak to bounce, and counter magic.

Loaming Shaman - Targets player
Reanimator - 1
Dredge - 3
Combo - 1
Random Yard MU - 2

Slow, weak to Stifle, counter magic

Ground Seal - Targets nothing
Reanimator - 3 / 4 - If landed
Dredge - 4 - No Dredge Return
Combo - 1
Random Yard MU - 2

Weak to counter magic, discard, and bounce

Ravenous Trap - Targets Player
Reanimator - 1
Dredge - 4
Combo - 4
Random Yard MU - 3

Weak to counter magic, and discard.

Wheel of Sun and Moon - Targets Player
Reanimator - 3/4 - if it sticks
Dredge - 4
Combo - 2
Random Yard MU - 3

Weak to counter magic, discard and bounce.

Like ESG said I'd choose a suite of some that target the player and some that don't target or targets the yard a total of (4) or more should be good.

[JanoschEausH]

I can agree with your ratification Freggle. I would add 2 things. First: Ground Seal is also good against opposing graveyard-hate and Snapcaster Mages. But it doesnt influence dredge while dedging.
Second: You clearly forgot Wheel of Sun and Moon. This card is far superior than Ground Seal in aspects of graveyard hate, and inferior in terms of improvement of other matchups. It is still my graveyard-hate of choice, simply because its low-costed and really efficient. It might be too slow against dedge, but in that case Elephant Grass is a good friend.

btw.: I like the structure of your postings Freggle. It is easy too overlook everything and its a pleasure to read it :)

[emrakultenticles]

have a quick question
has anyone tested Sigarda, Host of Herons as a singleton?
it stops engineered explosives and deed
she can a be GSZ target
adds another flying win con
and hexproof is just amazing
the downside is she isn't a enchantment and lacks synergy with everything else
much like emrakul, but Emrakul is pretty much a auto win and does have synergy with Karakas.
also is humility working well in here? I feel its better in Stax because it hoses your enchantress leaving you with just presence to work with.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Sigarda does nothing to stop Deed or Explosives.

[Freggle]

Spatula already said it. Deed and Explosives do not cause you to sacrifice, they destroy your permanents. This is decent tech in GSZ lists against Emrakul, and Pox. Sideboard at best.

[JanoschEausH]

Tyrell Kizer just made 10th Place at SCG Las Vegas with Enchantress. I like his list. Especially because its nearly identical with mine :)

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t%5BC1%5D=3&start_date=2012-07-15&end_date=2012-07-22&start=1&finish=16&event_ID=20&city=Las+Vegas&state=NV&country=US&start_num=1&start_num=0&limit=25

[Freggle]

IT was also featured in a deck Tech Here (http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/519_deck_tech_enchantress_with_tyr.html)

Key take-away quotes

"...there are multiple copies of the deck doing well here today."

"Tyrell doesn't think those combo decks make up a big enough portion of the metagame to warrant more maindeck hate than he already has."


Tyrell's list with tags:

Maindeck:

Creatures
4 Argothian Enchantress

Enchantments
1 City of Solitude
3 Elephant Grass
4 Enchantress's Presence
2 Mirri's Guile
1 Moat
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Runed Halo
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
3 Solitary Confinement
4 Sterling Grove
4 Utopia Sprawl
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
4 Wild Growth
1 Words of War

Instants
2 Enlightened Tutor

Legendary Creatures
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn


Sorceries
2 Replenish

Basic Lands
6 Forest
2 Plains

Lands
2 Savannah
1 Taiga
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath

Legendary Lands
1 Karakas
2 Serra's Sanctum

Sideboard:

1 Blood Moon
2 Choke
2 Ground Seal
1 Karmic Justice
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Nevermore
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Runed Halo
1 Stony Silence
1 Lignify

I LOVE to see enchantress do well, but I hate to say it, but it looks like a lucky run. This list to me seemed to just get the right MU's. It seems super exposed to GY shenanigans, and the results show. Lost to FKZ - Dredge (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=48044) in Round 8 (1-2), AND lost to 8th place slow Dredge (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=48037) round 5 (0-2). ...just 1 piece of yard hate MD Wheel of Sun and Moon, and one in the Board Ground Seal. I wonder what the reanimator plan was.

mrmaul558, I hope you take note of that for STG - Open: Buffalo.

Couldn't find any other MU info to find out what it did beat.

My overall reaction to Tyrell's list is decent to good MD; terrible SB.

Why were so many Enchantress lists doing well early, and only one T16'ed?

What are the threads thoughts?

[JanoschEausH]

Sorry Freggles, the list you posted was his list early this year at SCG Sacramento.
The deck tech is from 03.18.12.

His actual list is different from the one you posted and can be seen here (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=48042) :

Differences:
- 1x Enlightened Tutor
- 1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
- 1x Wheel of Sun and Moon

+ 2x Green Sun's Zenith
+ 1x Choke

The actual sideboard is different, too:
1x Choke
2x Ground Seal
1x Humility
1x Karmic Justice
4x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Raking Canopy
1x Runed Halo
1x Stony Silence
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon
1x Lignify

What i like most is the Raking Canopy. This card is so loveley against delver and an auto-win with Grove against Terminus. All their angel tokens die, which is basically their only wincon.

[mrmaul558]

Sorry Freggles, the list you posted was his list early this year at SCG Sacramento.
The deck tech is from 03.18.12.

His actual list is different from the one you posted and can be seen here (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=48042) :

Differences:
- 1x Enlightened Tutor
- 1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
- 1x Wheel of Sun and Moon

+ 2x Green Sun's Zenith
+ 1x Choke

The actual sideboard is different, too:
1x Choke
2x Ground Seal
1x Humility
1x Karmic Justice
4x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Raking Canopy
1x Runed Halo
1x Stony Silence
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon
1x Lignify

What i like most is the Raking Canopy. This card is so lovely against delver and an auto-win with Grove against Terminus. All their angel tokens die, which is basically their only wincon.

I could get behind a MD Choke... I'm not sure how I feel about taking out the Emrakul plan, but it doesn't seem completely unreasonable. Is 19 or 20 lands correct?

Potential Changes:
-1 Runed Halo
+1 Choke

-1 Elephant Grass/Enlightened Tutor (Leaning towards Tutor)
+1 Replenish

My List:
2 Savannah
1 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Serra's Sanctum
2 Plains
4 Forest
1 Karakas

4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Elephant Grass
4 Sterling Grove
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
3 Solitary Confinement

1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Runed Halo
1 Choke
1 Words of War
1 Humility
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne

2 Replenish
1 Crop Rotation
2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of Sanctity (Combo/Discard/Burn)
1 Choke (Blue)
1 Ground Seal (Graveyard)
1 Karmic Justice (Wasteland, Vindicate)
1 Oblivion Ring (Control, Reanimator, Sneaky Show)
1 Raking Canopy (Possible, not sure about this yet. It was suggested to be by a friend, and then it showed up in the T16 list)
1 Runed Halo (2 in the 75 seems right)
1 Stony Silence (Seems reasonable, but perhaps not necessary)
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon (Graveyard, Reanimator)
1 Lignify (Reanimator)

2x Free Slots (Aura of Silence? Bojuka Bog? Crop Rotation?)

[JanoschEausH]

I dont like the maindeck choke. I think choke in general is totally overrated. HEY they can't play a thing but choke doesnt help against those 2 flipped delvers beating on me...

I have abandoned the Emrakul-Plan too. I think its even wrong to call it "plan". Its more like a rare possibility than a plan.

My list is nearly the same as Tyrells. I play a 2nd O-Ring maindeck instead of a choke, one more fetchland instead of 1 savannah, and a 4th grass instead of moat.

20 lands is the way to go. 19 is too low for my taste.

[mrmaul558]

I dont like the maindeck choke. I think choke in general is totally overrated. HEY they can't play a thing but choke doesnt help against those 2 flipped delvers beating on me...

I have abandoned the Emrakul-Plan too. I think its even wrong to call it "plan". Its more like a rare possibility than a plan.

My list is nearly the same as Tyrells. I play a 2nd O-Ring maindeck instead of a choke, one more fetchland instead of 1 savannah, and a 4th grass instead of moat.

20 lands is the way to go. 19 is too low for my taste.

I'm finally going to get some testing in tonight. I could easily see the MD Choke becoming the second E-tutor again.

Emmy is definitely a plan - there are situations where the Sigil/WoW win is just too slow, or you have a ton of mana but nothing to fuel either of the other two wincons.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Choke does a lot against Delver; it stops it from getting buddies, it reduces the chances of it getting flipped with library manipulation, and most importantly, it combos absurdly well with Elephant Grass.

Which is my main complaint about the deck, it's missing the fourth Grass. But otherwise a pretty solid list.

As for Reanimator, I don't think it makes sense to devote a ton of energy to the match-up; it's going to be a negative match no matter what you do, and it seems to be on the decline as a portion of the field. Better to spend free slots on match-ups that are close.

[mrmaul558]

Finally got a bit of testing in (albiet, against Affinity and Zombie Bombardment). G1 against Bombardment seems in my favor, perhaps even 70%. I am using the changes I posted a few posts back (opting for 1x Replenish over 1x E. Tutor), and I like how the deck functions. Only one game I lost due to screw (and mulling down to 5), but such is the way of things. Looking forward to more testing tomorrow (against RUG Delver and Affinity), and some SB'ing as well.

I'm not convinced just yet on the MD Choke - I think it may be correct to switch it with the Runed Halo in the SB currently.

[Freggle]

Ground Seal is also good against opposing graveyard-hate and Snapcaster Mages. But it doesnt influence dredge while dedging.

Second: You clearly forgot Wheel of Sun and Moon.

I added those to the list and gave them my ratings.


btw.: I like the structure of your postings Freggle. It is easy too overlook everything and its a pleasure to read it :)

Thank you, I try.


Sorry Freggles, the list you posted was his list early this year at SCG Sacramento.
The deck tech is from 03.18.12.

Wow, sorry about that I missed that part. This is good it gives us more information to go on.

I found this video (http://blip.tv/scglive/scgca-leg-rd-5-tyrell-kizer-vs-louis-corsa-6057090) of Tyrell's Enchantress list loosing to Esper Stoneblade in Sacramento. (Was it right not to board in Leyline of Sanctity? Looks to me he got exposed by discard.)

Sacramento Tyrell's list lost to Blouses (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=44895) & this Esper Stoneblade (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=44896) a.k.a. flying pressure & discard control. The usual suspects.

So to try and go about this in a more methodical way (since Tyrell's list mimics many in this thread) why not try and shore-up these issues?

The core of enchantress is simple:

6-10 Enchantress Effects [Typically: Argothian Enchantress, Enchantress's Presence & Green Sun's Zenith]

5-10 Non-Enchantment Flex [Replenish, Enlightened Tutor, Crop Rotation]

30-35 Enchantments [Most variance with (1) to (5) wins. Many feature red splashes for Words of War]

18-20 Lands [Typically fetch based revolving around Green with a high degree of basics]

In addition to the flying issue this core is known to be weak to fast combo. Both the Sneak in big fatties type and the storm variety.

Lets assume we are locked into WGx.

It appears the best way to fight control is redundancy, and card advantage.
Cards typically found in enchantress that help beat control are:

4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
2ish Green Sun's Zenith
? Mirri's Guile
highly optional City of Solitude

It is in my estimation that this suite of cards should get enchantress through a myriad of counter magic.

Aggro is best fought with the following cards:

4 Elephant Grass
3 Solitary Confinement* - It should be noted the more redundancy devoted to combating control with enchantress effects without encroaching on the enchantment count too much only helps combating aggro

optional Moat
optional Humility
optional Ghostly Prison
highly optional Defense of the Heart - doubles as alt win con.
ultra-highly optional Energy Field - (x=:u: build)

Combo is best fought with these cards:

3 Solitary Confinement
? Runed Halo - marginal
? Sterling Grove - indirectly

Sideboard - Leyline of Sanctity
Sideboard - Surgical Extraction
Highly Optional - Recoup - For Surgical
Ultra-highly Optional - Snapcaster Mage for Surgical (x=:u: build)

Here is a proposed GWu build that could improve all of the known poor MU's without messing drastically with the decks core:

Maindeck:

Enchantress Effects (10)
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
2 Green Sun's Zenith

Dig
3 Mirri's Guile
4 Brainstorm:u:

Locks
4 Elephant Grass
3 Solitary Confinement
3 Wheel of Sun and Moon
4 Energy Field:u:
2 Sterling Grove

Ramp
4 Utopia Sprawl


The Catch-all
2 Oblivion Ring

The Win
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne

Mana (20)
1 Karakas
2 Serra's Sanctum
5 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
2 Savannah
1 Tropical Island
3 Misty Rainforest

Sideboard:
4 Surgical Extraction - Combo / Dredge / Control / Reanimator
3 Snapcaster Mage - Perhaps weak but intended to double up on surgicals and b. storms
4 Mystic Remora - Combo
4 Spell Pierce - Combo

Fliers are now handled by Energy Field / Wheel of Sun and Moon. Discard can now be Spell Pierced, and Surgical Extraction-ed away, or simply side-stepped with Brainstorm. Combo get the most hate out of the board (likely too much) with all the ones labeled above.

The idea of the list above is to show another possible solution to Enchantress's woes over the last few months. did I get the core correct? ...what are peoples reactions to the list above?

mrmaul558 For your list I would still consider Surgical Extraction in your sideboard. It is powerful against GY shenanigans and combo both of which you need help with.

[cthulhu_dude23]

Here's my report straight from Salvation with a few changes, I figured It would probably get more use over here.

@freggles, that was the list I took 15th with at Sac, and ever since then came to HATE Emrakul.

Okay cats and kittens, here is how I went 6-2 and got 10th at scg Vegas. First off, we'll start with my list.

4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
2 Green Sun's Zenith

4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Sterling Grove
3 Solitary Confinement
3 Elephant Grass
2 Mirri"s Guile
2 Replenish
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 Words of War
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Choke
1 Moat
1 City of Solitude
1 Runed Halo

6 Forest
2 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Serra"s Sanctum
2 Savannah
1 Taiga
1 Karakas

SIDEBOARD
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Choke
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
2 Ground Seal
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Karmic Justice
1 Lignify
1 Humility
1 Raking Canopy
1 Runed Halo

And an explanation for some of my choices. A few months ago I was converted to the Green Sun's Zenith side, and lets say that I've never turned back. If there are any naysayers still out there, it is pretty freakin awesome. It has allowed me to keep hands that I otherwise could have never kept, and adds a level of consistency that we haven't seen before. I took out my 21st land and an e tutor for it, so its not like I took out enchantments, so there is no problem there.

I had begun to feel like 2 E tutors was too much. All it seemed I was ever doing with it was time walking myself and wasting a draw for a presence or discarding it late game. Now, I still kept one because there are certain mathups (reanimator, sneak and show, dredge) where if you don't draw your silver bullet, you are outright dead. I'm still trying it out as a 1 of, but I am seriously considering cutting it altogether. We are witnessing a huge swing in control decks like stoneblade and tempo decks like thresh. Both of which revel in us wasting a draw phase on something that they counter. And so it becomes pertinent to board that out.

Also, mainboard choke is so good that I can't even begin to express how much I'm in love with it. Enough of the meta is blue that it just wrecks when it resolves, and is a must counter. And in conjunction with grass against Thresh, its almost criminal. Against non-blue decks, it is simply another silver bullet you probably would have boarded out in certain matchups anyway. So I truly believe that the pros far outweigh the cons.

The reason I ran Raking Canopy was because at the last scg I was in, I died something fierce to lingering souls tokens. Esper blade doesnt main board them often anymore, and they aren't going to board it for us because we aren't an aggro deck, but enough of the meta runs delver that its still VERY relevant. I ran it out aggressively against a UR delver player, and it kept his delver a 1/1, a UW control deck couldn't remotely attack with their delvers anymore, and with Moat out as well, Thresh pretty much rolls over. So I personally like it, not to mention that there really wasn't a 15th card that I felt was desperately in need of, so I took a gamble on it, and was overall pretty happy with it. Not to mention that I've grown to not care much for blood moon, as choke comes in against most of the same matchups anyway and pretty much does the same exact thing without doing anything to us.

Something else, I absolutely DESPISE mainboard Humility. It shuts off our engine, is very win more in matchups other than reanimator, sneak & show, or combo elves (which we have a far better matchup against anyway because they no longer play Emrakul), not to mention that those matchups are very unfavorable even with it game 1. I cringe at the thoughts of being in the position of having to cast whatever enchantment we draw next (lets be honest, we've all been there) and having it be a Humility. Humility/Moat is very cute, and don't get me wrong, I've always loved me some dutch stax for that combo, but here I don't like the resulting drawback for that option. I personally hate having to put in the sideboard, but I do believe that it has to be someone in our 75 for those few matchups.

Emrakul is bad. VERY bad. I played it at scg sac, and hated every minute of that stupid spaghetti monster. In the past he has gotten me out of a couple weird corner cases that I should not have won, but that does not make up for a VERY win more win-con that has zero synergy with the deck. If you are worried about decking yourself (or have) you need to practice some more, because that should never be happening. It may come close, but you should be aware of it, and react accordingly, which in turn means that you were never going to deck yourself out anyway.

Crop rotation I feel is another pointless card. As a one of, it won't come off very much. As a non-enchantment, it is anti-synergistic with the deck. And as an answer to Reanimator or S&S, it will probably be countered anyway. If you fear Reanimator, play a Ground Seal as a silver bullet, and utilize your oblivion ring(s) against S&S pre-board. One at least replaces itself against pointless matchups (or is even relevant against Snapcaster) and the other is very useful. Not to mention, yet again, is very win-more when it is used to go for Sanctum.

Anyways, thats it for my decisions/comments on potential card options for decks that people may be considering and my opinions of them.

I lost to dredge both times that day, and let me explain that a little bit. I haven't tested against dredge a lot lately, and still remember when they were 1-2 turns slower. And even with faithless I had played against players that gave me a few extra turns, which gave me a false sense of security and as such led me to play my grasses more conservatively in my 2nd match against dredge (I played against it 3 times, won the first and lost the second 2). I learned from it for my final round, but as you'll see it wasn't quite enough and I lost out on a gamble I made.

And without further ado; the report. Keep in mind, I will be as thorough as possible with the report, but as the tourney wore on, I started going close to time in some of the grindy matchups. So I spent the time relaxing for my next round instead of taking notes. So I apologize, but it should still be pretty solid and accurate.

Round 1: Belcher
G1: I get the play and mulligan to a little slower 6 card hand while he tanks FOREVER, so I put him on an inexperienced combo player. I go forest, ship the turn, and sure enough, he makes 12 gobbos and passes. I play savannah, sprawl my savannah and play grove, ship. He takes me to 8. During my upkeep I crack grove for a grass, play it, fetch and ship. He plays a tender wall, attacks. I Pay for grass, I GSZ for enchantress, and ship. He passes right back. I Pay again, play grove, and pass. He grants, plays petal, esg and hits me. I sac grove for solitary, sac the grass, cast it. He passes, I discard sigil, cast presence and he scoops.

Board:
-choke
-city of solitude
- o ring
-guile
-replenish
+4 Leyline
+ stony silence

G2:
I mull to six with a very solid hand that starts out with a leyline. He groans, probes himself, land grants, shows me the belcher kill and passes. I play forest and sprawl. He makes 10 gobbos. I play land, cast argothian and a grass on my turn. He passes. I pay, play a land, and cast presence. He passes. I let grass die, cast sprawl, and solitary confinement. He draws, and scoops.

So I dodged a bit of a bullet when he decided to make goblins game 1 and I forced him to do so game 2. And off to round 2, where the matchups will sometimes be a bit shorter due to either fast rounds where not a lot happens, or I didn't devote time to writing down every play because I believed focusing and relaxing was a little more important, and writing it all down afterwards stressed me out because I was wracking my brain trying to remember it, and thats something you don't need in an 8 round tourney.

1-0

Round 2: Dredge
G1: He mulled to 3, and whiffed on his first couple of dredges which allowed to to play and early grass, and set up an engine. I won in short order.

Board:
- Halo
-city
-choke
- o ring
- guile
- replenish
+4 leyline
+ Wheel
+ ground seal (in case he had dread for a big troll, which some lists still do)

G2: I mulligan to a weird 5 card hand with only sanctum as land, which i should have probably shipped for a 4. He proceeds to wreck my hand with a turn 1 therapy for my grass, and then goes off on turn 2 to decimate my hand and then kill me turn 3.

G3: I keep a good 7 that has wheel in it. I lead with land and sprawl, where he plays an imp and ships it over. I drop the wheel, and pass. He Nature's claims it during his upkeep and proceed to start dredging. I drop an engine card and grove at some point and search up a solitary to buy some turns, and cast a sigil. He claims the solitary and puts me on game next turn. My best answer here is my only replenish, which holy crap I rip, bringing back my solitary, wheel, and grove. He passes. I sac the grove for moat, play it, and make an angel. He passes. Im able to then assemble an engine, cast a ton of enchantments and kill him.

Phew, that was a close one that was 4 seconds away from going to time.

2-0

Round 3: UWB countertop (yeah, I know, a little weird)
This one was super quick aside from the deck check because there was some controversy early in the tourney where a belcher player's empty the warrens were the only foil cards in his deck. And my whole deck is foil (BOOYAH!), and most of my opponent's was.

G1: He gets down an early counterbalance, he counters my on turn grove. Then I play an on turn city of solitude. He whiffs on the balance and scoops on the spot.

Board
- Moat
-e tutor
-grass
-halo
+stony silence
+choke
+o ring
+ raking canopy (I thought maybe he was playing thopter foundry wincon)

G2: I get down a quick engine, play the city early on again, he whiffs both balance AND a brainstorm for force, and once again scoops.

He later tells me he doesn't believe in win cons for that deck, and only play an entreat ( which canopy would have stopped anyway) and Jace.

3-0

Round 4: Thresh
G1: He leads of with a turn 1 Delver, where I turn 1 ramp and pass. He brainstorms during his upkeep, which is one of my biggest pet peeves...until he plays land and another delver. Okay, acceptable, and really scary. I take 3 and then cast more ramp and a grass. He misses his land drop (to the surprise of no one) and hits me for 3. I drop choke and proceed to watch him cry. He never draws a force, I assemble and engine, and kill him with angels.

Board
-e tutor
-guile
+raking canopy
+choke

G2: he first turn mongoose, and Im ecstatic. I ramp, he attacks and plays goyf. I try a presence, he forces, plays delver, and attacks me some more. I play GSZ and grass to stall a bit. i then choke AGAIN, which slows him down to a crawl. I proceed to get a city down, assemble engine and lock, kill him with WoW.

Sadly this was the only time I got matched up against this very positive matchup, despite all the thresh in the room that day, saaaaad panda.

4-0

Round 5: Dredge This one is super short and sweet as he nut draws both games.
G1: i ramp on the play, he carefuls and passes. I play land and presence. He dedges, faithless, dredges, breakthroughs, and freakin explodes. He makes a billion zombies and destroys my hand. I don't top deck an answer, and die.

Board:
same as before

G2:Games 2 goes EXACTLLY like game 1, and I die in short order.

This is where I learn that we can no longer play grasses conservatively against dredge, they must be treated like combo. We have to assume they have the kill on turn 3 (which happens fairly regularly now with that blazingly fast deck). Whilst I HATE learning a lesson like this mid-tourney, I'd rather walk away from a loss with something rather than nothing.

4-1

Round 6: UW control with geist, stoneblade for feast and famine, and delver
G1: I mull to 5 that has no engine piece, but e tutor and grove. Land, ramp, go. He opens with island delver. I play heath and pass. He flips his delver and plays stoneforge to go for feast and famine. I end of turn tutor for presence. He counters, i play grove and pass. He attacks, I crack grove, go for presence...he counters. the game ends in short order.

Board:
- moat
-e tutor
-o ring (yes its helplful against feast and famine, but I felt that I'd rather be doing other things)
+choke
+canopy
+halo

G2:He mulls to 5, i keep a decent 7. I ramp, pass. He plays a fetch and passes. I GSZ, WHICH HE ALLOWS TO RESOLVE (I know he has a counterspell because he tanks, and the following turn pierces a spell). He plays land and passes again. I play a grove, which he counters. Cool story bro, I will draw more cards than you have counters. He forces some random spell I cast next, and I just slowly start to bury him in card advantage and choke even though he gets a geist and takes me down really low.

I boarded in my karmic justice in case of disenchants, but can't remember what I took out.

G3: This is what magic is all about baby. We both keep our 7, he islands and delvers. I sprawl, which he dazes. Oh really...you are going on the "slow me down" gameplan, alrighty then. He replays the land, attacks for just 1, and passes. I try enchantresses and he forces it. He lands and plays a a mystic for feast and famine again. I play a grove and pass. He attacks for a few more turns whilst slow rolling his lands for choke. I proceed to choke him. He attacks me for 4. I grove for grass. I play a grass, he counters, oh crap. I take 4 again. At this point I'm REALLY low on life. Luckily I draw replenish to buy some turns. He passes. I pay, and grove for grass because if he has a land, he can feast and famine at eot, equip and kills me if I go for canopy, so I play the other grass. He passes again. I pay for both and play Words of war and pass. He passes. I let 1 grass die and skip my draw to burn the delver, have zero cards, and pass. He passes again (I guess he is waiting for his window, granted he was pretty dead as it is since he had his only glacial chasm and plains out already and only a fetch or two at this point). I skip my draw again to nerf his mystic. He passes. I draw and cast a GSZ finally. he passes again. I play raking canopy to draw a card and presence. At which point he loses to my words of war shortly after.

Later on he admitted he didn't have any disenchants, which I though was really weird to be honest.

5-1

Round 6: UR delver
G1: he gets a turn 1 delver which flips immediately, and takes me down to a really low life total. I'm able to assemble an engine and lock him out at a measly 6 life.

Board:
-moat
-o ring
- e tutor
-guile
-grass (i think?)
+4 leyline
+Halo

G2: I mulligan, play an early ramp and guile. He then Engineered Explosives for 1, OUCH! He then beats me down and burns me out in quick order.

G3: I mulligan, and as the match starts, it is about this point that I realize that I didn't board in the second choke for some reason, I'm not happy with myself. Anyway, he doesn't get a turn 1 delver (phew), and I ramp a little bit. He plays delver, I play a GSZ. He EEs for 2 (really getting tired of this). I play raking canopy. Now this is the fun part, he starts beating me down whilst countering everything I play AND burning me. Awesome. At one point I resolve a choke to slow him way down. I get down to 6 and have to play Runed Halo naming Thunderous Wrath so I don't just outright die to it next turn. He hits me down a couple of times. I finally resolve an enchantress, and am forced to block because Im at 4 and don't want to die to a lightning bolt. I then top deck solitary to buy me a turn. He passes. I let it die and pass. Ladies and gentleman, my heart is pounding. Bolt outright kills me here. He doesn't have it though and he hits me down to 3. I top deck Leyline (THANK YOU GOD). He hits me to 2. I cast a presence. He hits me to 1, and I hit the confinement. He cant do much, and I start to GSZ, hit city of solitude and lock him out.

Phew, too close for comfort, BUT BABY I'M 6 AND 1, WOOOOHOOOO!

6-1

Okay, at this point my buddies and I think tank about if I can draw into Top 8 next round. I'm super paranoid, because I don't want to get breaker jumped. Standings come out and I'm in 5th, so I am safe to ID into top. I sit down with my opponent and offer him the draw, he is super worried because his breakers are tied with 3 other people and he has been breaker jumped twice in the past. He tanks, does some math, has his buddy look at the situation, and the judges yell at us to at least start our match. Im shuffling a few times, trying to get them to figure it out. Sad thing, there are 3 people (me included) vying for 2 spots, my breakers are better than his, and we don't know the 3rd person. He very reluctantly has us play (and now I'm on pins and needles).

Round 6: ...Dredge
G1: He leads with city of brass and faithless looting. My face, calm. My thoughts, GOD *@$^%&#$^ CABINET #$%#%#^ SON OF A $%^%#$! I wonder where maverick was all day, thresh again, or even a stoneblade matchup. All decks that I have anywhere from positive to an extremely positive matchup against, but no. I get another combo deck. Great. Thankfully I play a turn 1 grass. Suck it dredge. He goes ahead and dredges some, I see some returns in the yard. Pay for grass, topdeck a sprawl, and play land sprawl. He makes some more dudes and therapies me for some stuff as he doesn't really know what to hit (which I love soooo much). I pay, land and grove go. he dredges...I crack grove for moat, let grass die and play moat. I assemble an engine including solitary, and deck him out.

Board:
same as before except I keep in the 2nd replenish and only bring in 3 leylines and I brought in the second ground seal but for the life of me do not remember what else I boarded out.

G2: I have to ship a hand that was perfect with leyline and everything, but sanctum instead of forest, for a hand that has a grass. He faithless lootings and pitches some stuff. I play grass. He then plays, drum roll please...painter's servant. I drop grass like a bad habit, draw a leyline, and play land, growth, sprawl. He has 1 turn to kill me...which he does, damn.

Board:
-second guile
+stony silence

I figure he is going to board out his painter combo anyway, but if he doesn't, this will stop him cold. If he does, it will at least stop his LEDs. Its not like my board would change that much for the combo in the first place, so his jedi mind tricks are a lot less worthwhile against my deck.

G3: Like every bad beat, or dreamcrushing game, you proceed to run it in your mind over, and over, and over again. And just when you think your done replaying it, you do it a few more times. This is no exception. Keep in mind I was super bummed after this because its the second time I've gotten dreamcrushed out of Top 8 at an scg, was tired and not looking forward to our 8 hour drive after I either lost here or in the Top 8, and as such afterwards I was decompressing and trying to finally relax a bit because long tournaments always take it out of you, so to me some of the details are a little fuzzy on his EXACT plays. Bottom line though, I remember getting to turn 3 before dying, and remember my hand and plays, so bear with me people. I don't want to hear, "Hey I watched the feed archive, and that isn't 100% what happened man!" Please excuse my human error.

I keep a 6 card hand on the play that is leyline, 3 lands, solitary, and sigil. Why do I keep this hand? Because my odds of mulling down to 5 with a leyline are low, and even if I do have a grass or silver bullet, my hand will be ripped apart with therapy. I decide to keep. I start with leyline and land. He carefuls and passes. I draw a land, play another land, and pass. He dredges, faithless and passes. I play sanctum and have a choice. I can hope he whiffs here again, not hit his flamkein zealot and buy me one more turn to try and draw an engine before playing the confinement. We all know how hard it is to wiggle our way out of a game where we are forced to play 3 mana fogs, especially when all I've drawn is land this entire game. I tank a bit. I decide to wait 1 more turn. Pass. He dredges, LEDs, and breakthroughs for 1, my only hope is that he doesn't hit enough narcomeobas or has a land in hand for blood ghast to cast dread return. He hits a narcomeoba, 2 ghasts, Zealot and return. He has a land and kills me with hasty, flaming zombies. I look at my top cards cards, which were another land and then confinement, so I was dead either way. Damn. He has 2 Unmasks in his hand and a Nature's claim he kept with breakthrough that I guess he decided to save for a prison piece once he saw I had a poor hand and was drawing even worse, so he didn't worry about the leyline. So confinement was worthless.

Should I have played the solitary looking back on it? Yes. Was it a longshot as well as holding back? Absolutely. But in the end I feel it had slightly better odds than the hope and pray gameplan. Later on I realized he was slow playing looking for hate just in case instead of having a slow hand like I believed.

I was definitely bummed, and wish things had gone a little bit differently, but such is life. I still placed 10th, which was better than the 15th I got in scg Sacremento. What did I take away from this though? I'm right there. Very close, and getting closer. Enchantress is Tier 1.5/2 deck that many unjustly call a terrible deck and I'm doing well with it. That means that I know what I'm doing, and know my matchups, so that isn't the problem (aside form the early dredge debacle, which I adapted to). I banked on reanimator and sneak & show facing insane amounts of hate and being out of the way, which did happen. Considering that those are absolutely abysmal matches. I've always felt that I was skilled with this deck and knew what I was doing, and this only goes to reinforce that. Are there things I still need to learn? Of course, I'm not perfect with this deck, but I do believe that I am very adept at playing it. And this continues to be my favorite Legacy deck period, even after a couple of years of playing it.

Thank you to anyone that took the time to read this (sorry for the long-windedness, but I do like being thorough), and I hope that something is learned from it. Good luck to everyone out there that loves playing this deck, I know I sure do. I'm open to suggestions, and am welcome to critiques so have at it. Keep on casting green Ancestral Recalls everybody.

[mrmaul558]

Great Tourney Report! I love to see Enchantress doing well!

I think I'm going to test tonight without Emrakul... as much as it hurts a bit, some hands with him are just auto-mulligans since its like you already mulliganed anyways. Its a bit counteractive to what GSZ is trying to do. Do you think a 20th land in my list would be correct over Emrakul? Just another Forest, maybe?

I can also see why Humility wouldn't be played in the MD. I could exchange that for the 2nd Runed Halo chillin' in my SB, I think.

I have to strongly disagree with your evaluation of Crop Rotation, though - Getting Sanctum with it is actually the opposite of win-more on a lot of cases; it can actually just hand you games that you otherwise had no business winning at all.

I may test a bit without E-Tutor as well, but I have a feeling if I cut it I will just see Reanimator/Sneaky Show decks all day that I would want it against... not sure yet.

My List:
2 Savannah
1 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Serra's Sanctum
2 Plains
4 Forest
1 Karakas

4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Elephant Grass
4 Sterling Grove
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
3 Solitary Confinement

1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Runed Halo
1 Choke
1 City of Solitude
1 Words of War
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne

2 Replenish
1 Crop Rotation
2 Green Sun's Zenith

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of Sanctity (Combo/Discard/Burn)
2 Wheel of Sun and Moon (Graveyard, Reanimator)
2 Choke (Blue)
1 Humility
1 Karmic Justice (Wasteland, Vindicate)
1 Oblivion Ring (Control, Reanimator, Sneaky Show)
1 Raking Canopy (Any flying creatures)
1 Lignify (Reanimator)
1 Crop Rotation
1 Bojuka Bog

How does this look?

[Freggle]

Report & Card Choices

Thank you cthulhu_dude23. I found this to be a fun and informative read. I would like to say from your performances with the deck and watching your video I think your play skill is pretty high. Frankly, better than mine. I hope to some day learn how to calm the nerves and play more soundly. If you would like to read about any of my trysts with Enchantress you can do so here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23437-Developmental-Spreading-Illusions-An-Enchantress-Variant) in a highly developmental enchantress variant.

I think enchantress is a fun deck, and the overall enchantress concept is the sole reason for my return to magic. I do feel that current lists are not well positioned for the meta, but I tend to believe that an optimal undiscovered list does exist.

So some questions for you:

Have you ever tried boarding in Leyline of Sanctity vs. Esper Blade? ...do you lean heavy on choke?

What do you think of Stony Silence as a way to neuter Engineered Explosives?

What are your initial reactions to the rough blue splash list posted above (quote below)? ...do you feel it's a step in the wrong direction?

List down the post

Similar concept, but slightly re-thought over here in the Enchantress Variant thread


I'd love to hear your thoughts, and I really appreciate you sharing your time with us here.

[cthulhu_dude23]

@mrmaul558, im glad you enjoyed the report, and that it succeeded in giving reasons as to why certain cards were run/not run. I feel too often people (me included) look at a list and judge card choices harshly, where as if there is a simple explanation people are clued into that insight. That may very well have been what i have done with crop rotation, so if you are fond of it, then by all means run it. It really doesnt fit my playstyle for the deck, but thats the beauty with this deck, it has tons of different inceptions. Just like the chrome moxen or ESG versions. I agree that you should probably take emrakul out for a forest, like i said every match that i drew him in sacremento i wanted to sigh and wished it had been anything else. Other than that id try to squeeze at least a guile in there, like -1 oring for a singleton. You probably read my response about the double o ring on salvation because you seem to be alluding to it a little, so i wont be a broken record.


Thank you cthulhu_dude23. I found this to be a fun and informative read. I would like to say from your performances with the deck and watching your video I think your play skill is pretty high. Frankly, better than mine. I hope to some day learn how to calm the nerves and play more soundly. If you would like to read about any of my trysts with Enchantress you can do so here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23437-Developmental-Spreading-Illusions-An-Enchantress-Variant) in a highly developmental enchantress variant.

I think enchantress is a fun deck, and the overall enchantress concept is the sole reason for my return to magic. I do feel that current lists are not well positioned for the meta, but I tend to believe that an optimal undiscovered list does exist.

So some questions for you:

Have you ever tried boarding in Leyline of Sanctity vs. Esper Blade? ...do you lean heavy on choke?

What do you think of Stony Silence as a way to neuter Engineered Explosives?

What are your initial reactions to the rough blue splash list posted above (quote below)? ...do you feel it's a step in the wrong direction?




I'd love to hear your thoughts, and I really appreciate you sharing your time with us here.

You are too kind freggle, far more so than i probably deserve. I too am happy to see that some good came of my wall of text. You mentioned nerves, and on that note I have a weird quirk that happens everytime i go to an scg open or grand prix; I shake the entire first round. And i dont mean a little nervous, i mean downright tremble to the point where my opponents think im going to have a heart attack. It has to do with a complex I have of being absolutely petrified of screwing up, but i just take a dose of mind over matter and get through the round without screwing up and on away i go.

Anyway, on to your questions. I want to board in leylines against esperblade soooooo badly, but heres the problem, most everything else in your mainboard is already very good against them that it is very hard to take cards out for them. You only really take out e tutor and 1 grass (potentially moat, but it depends if they are on a clique gameplan or not) for o ring and choke or the halo instead of ring. So id like to put them in, but its tough to cut much more than that.

Now for stony silence, i didnt see it coming game 2 so it caught me with my pants down. Had i brought it in it would have been a 1 of that had no other interaction with the rest of UR delver. I could have forseen him shrugging his shoulders and just burning me. It sucked, im not gonna lie, but he also had zero way of using it to blow up anything 3 or more, which is where the money is. Early on like in game 2 it can bury me, but i also had a land light hand. After its pushed to the late game with choke he has to be conservative with the lands, and he really cant afford searching up 3 duals or islands and possibly using a wasteland to blow up some cards while he cant use them anymore.

First off, I loved the scientific method with which you used to go about designing that version. You analyzed weaknesses, card choices, answers, etc and built the deck up from the ground up. With a new version of anything that is drastically different it must be attacked like this. Too often ive seen people just try to shove this engine or land tax into an existing enchantress build. Doesnt work like that.

As far as the actual list, lets start off by saying that Im extremely stubborn and set in my ways. Theres a reason why it took me forever to switch over to GSZ, it was different. And if thats a change this is a downright paradigm shif. That aside though, Ill try and be as objective as possible.

My main concern with the engine is that so many slots must be devoted to it, and either piece of the engine is not great on its own and doesnt further your gameplan. Not to mention that this doesn't shore up our weakness to Emrakul any.

I wish there were at least 2 growths in there, 4 if at all possible. Id play 10 if I could (when that avacyn resotred card came out, i almost passed out...until i read that it just filtered mana, so close) We are an extremely slow engine, and those ramp spells are critical to our gameplan. When mental misstep was legal this deck was essentially dead because we got slowed down to a crawl. With only 2 groves the engine seems a little fragile, not to mention that its arguably our best card.

Snapcaster wont work at all if wheel is your main engine, thats for sure so Id cut him right away.

Now have i ever tested this? No. I do like it better than that pucca's mischief garbage though, thats for sure. I wouldnt mind trying this out with my local play group and giving you a more in depth opinion of it that is more than theorycrafting.
Do i think its the answer? No, but also understand that Ive never been a fan of this engine and have ranted about it quite a few times. You could call me a purist to tried and true methods.

Ive got to ask though, do you really think the meta is so bad for enchantress? I don't think so. Combo aside from dredge never is more than 10% of any given meta, if that. And look at the tournament results as of late, S&S and reanimator's domination has been highly exaggerated. They are being hated out and addressed in sideboards by the fair decks that otherwise can't cope with them. Look what the rest of the meta is; maverick (a joke for us), candian thresh (once again, laughable), fish (not too bad, we have a lot of answers here and you have to be careful), stoneblade (esper is a little annoying, but uw is totally fine and they are at least manageable), miracle top (doesn't really interact with us), nic fit (aside from deed is laughable so just assume they have it and ramp out the justice, i want to kiss them when they give us free lands), goblins (lol), burn (dies to leyline something fierce as they really dont play anarchy anymore).

There are rough matchups as always and a couple are abysmal, but we just just have to look for answers for them. Or (and i hate this route, but sometimes is the best one) just resign the worst to being a total loss.

Ive always been firmly of the camp that as long as there are at least a few slow control decks and aggro decks out there, this deck is still good. When we see the days when creatures aren't turning sideways in legacy anymore, then it'll be the day to hang up the towel. And i don't believe we are anywhere close to that day. I think its a resilient enough deck to weather even slanted metagames and still do well, and skill goes a long way to reinforce that. Hell, look at the lands player that took first awhile back. LANDS! A deck that dies to Jace almost outright, and has a poor combo matchup as well. So allow that to steel your resolve some.

[waSP]

Maindeck:

Enchantress Effects (10)
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
2 Green Sun's Zenith

Dig
3 Mirri's Guile
4 Brainstorm:u:

Locks
4 Elephant Grass
3 Solitary Confinement
3 Wheel of Sun and Moon
4 Energy Field:u:
2 Sterling Grove

Ramp
4 Utopia Sprawl


The Catch-all
2 Oblivion Ring

The Win
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne

Mana (20)
1 Karakas
2 Serra's Sanctum
5 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
2 Savannah
1 Tropical Island
3 Misty Rainforest

Sideboard:
4 Surgical Extraction - Combo / Dredge / Control / Reanimator
3 Snapcaster Mage - Perhaps weak but intended to double up on surgicals and b. storms
4 Mystic Remora - Combo
4 Spell Pierce - Combo


There are a few things I would note with this list:
1. Mirri's Guile is not very good here. You have loads of redundancy across your cards with 11 ways to stall pretty much indefinitely. These could be Wild Growths.
2. Serra's Sanctum is not that strong in this list. You're way better at stalling than most builds, so you don't need that accelerating oomph. It gets better when you run cards like Humility and Moat (which, you know, something to think about).
3. I certainly have no problem with having only 1 win condition in this deck (heck I used to run a singleton Mirari's Wake as my kill, whee 1/2 Enchantresses), but it can be a little dicey, especially if it gets discarded early. If you're going to have just one kill slot, Emrakul might be better.
4. I agree with everyone else that Replenish is a must. It even interacts well with Wheel of Sun and Moon. It can Replenish onto you under Solitary Confinement so you avoid decking without making yourself vulnerable.
5. In trying to protect Energy Field you want to have at least 3 Sterling Grove, I think. You may want to consider an all (or almost all) basics manabase, as well. You keep the fetches, but get rid of the Duals. You don't have any strong mana requirements besides Sigil and I'm assuming that will get played with a Sanctum or a Utopia Sprawl in play.

[mrmaul558]

Is this more correct? And after looking at the SB'ing (below) I'm starting to wonder if the MD Choke should be something else...Enlightened Tutor #2? I was afraid of Thought Scour, but then I can just side them out against RUG Delver (what else plays Thought Scour? Anything?) Then cut the Lignify in the board for the 2nd Choke?
-1 Oblivion Ring
+1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
-1 City of Solitude
+1 Forest
-1 Runed Halo
+1 Humility

2 Savannah
1 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Serra's Sanctum
2 Plains
5 Forest
1 Karakas

4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Elephant Grass
4 Sterling Grove
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
3 Solitary Confinement

1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Runed Halo
1 Humility
1 Choke
1 Words of War
2 Sigil of the Empty Throne

2 Replenish
1 Crop Rotation
2 Green Sun's Zenith

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of Sanctity (Combo/Discard/Burn)
2 Wheel of Sun and Moon (Graveyard, Reanimator)
1 Choke (Blue)
1 City of Solitude
1 Karmic Justice (Wasteland, Vindicate)
1 Oblivion Ring (Control, Reanimator, Sneaky Show)
1 Runed Halo
1 Raking Canopy (Any flying creatures)
1 Lignify (Reanimator)
1 Crop Rotation
1 Bojuka Bog

Would you guys help me get down my SB'ing?

Here's my thoughts on a few matchups:
RUG Delver:
+1 Choke
-1 Elephant Grass
+1 City of Solitude
-1 Sigil of the Empty Throne

Sneaky Show/Show and Tell:
-2 Sigil of the Empty Throne
+1 Oblivion Ring
+1 Lignify
-1 Choke
-1 Words of War
+2 Wheel of Sun and Moon

Reanimator:
-2 Sigil of the Empty Throne
+1 Oblivion Ring
+1 Lignify
-1 Choke
-1 Words of War
+2 Wheel of Sun and Moon
-1 Taiga
+1 Bojuka Bog
-1 Replenish
+1 Crop Rotation

Affinity:
+1 Oblivion Ring
-1 Choke

Esper Stoneblade:
+1 Karmic Justice (For Engineered Explosives)
-1 Humility
+1 Oblivion Ring
-1 Words of War

Zombie Bombardment:
+4 Leyline of Sanctity
-2 Sigil of the Empty Throne
-1 Choke
-1 Elephant Grass?

[JanoschEausH]

At first i really have to thank cthulhu_dude23 for your awesome report. It was a pleasure reading it! It's always nice to read how other people play the deck and how they decide. This helps preparing for tournaments alot. I will run nearly the same version of your deck (i think 3 cards differ) at a 150 ppl tournament tomorrow. I will let you all know how that went (but dont expect too much - im still a beginner with this deck ^^)

@mrmaul558: I wouldnt cut the lignify, because its an awesome card against thalia and the like and is our only out against Iona on white. What i would do is transferring the Humility to the sideboard, because like cthulhu_dude23 already observed, SneakShow and Reanimator are hated massively.
I think your list is solid and if you like to play Crop Rotation you should do it. The only thing i would change is reducing the number of Sigils to 1, and add an Oblivion Ring or so. I think 2 win-cons is really enough.

When it comes to boarding i will relate only to the RUG-Delver Matchup because i thought about that extensively.
With your current SB you really want against RUG: Runed Halo, Raking Canopy, O-Ring, City of Solitude, Choke and maybe Lignify.
Halo is against mongeese and the rest stops counters or aggro.

In my opinion, its save to board out Sterling Groves and E-Tutor against RUG. Thats what i would do.

[novatinhu]

I
RUG Delver:
+1 Choke
-1 Elephant Grass
+1 City of Solitude
-1 Sigil of the Empty Throne

Sneaky Show/Show and Tell:
-2 Sigil of the Empty Throne
+1 Oblivion Ring
+1 Lignify
-1 Choke
-1 Words of War
+2 Wheel of Sun and Moon

Reanimator:
-2 Sigil of the Empty Throne
+1 Oblivion Ring
+1 Lignify
-1 Choke
-1 Words of War
+2 Wheel of Sun and Moon
-1 Taiga
+1 Bojuka Bog
-1 Replenish
+1 Crop Rotation



How you win if you are SBing out all your wincon?

Cya

[mrmaul558]

@mrmaul558: I wouldnt cut the lignify, because its an awesome card against thalia and the like and is our only out against Iona on white. What i would do is transferring the Humility to the sideboard, because like cthulhu_dude23 already observed, SneakShow and Reanimator are hated massively.
I think your list is solid and if you like to play Crop Rotation you should do it. The only thing i would change is reducing the number of Sigils to 1, and add an Oblivion Ring or so. I think 2 win-cons is really enough.

When it comes to boarding i will relate only to the RUG-Delver Matchup because i thought about that extensively.
With your current SB you really want against RUG: Runed Halo, Raking Canopy, O-Ring, City of Solitude, Choke and maybe Lignify.
Halo is against mongeese and the rest stops counters or aggro.

In my opinion, its save to board out Sterling Groves and E-Tutor against RUG. Thats what i would do.

TBH, I think its more correct to move Choke to the SB before Humility (Which is awesomely good against RUG Delver, Maverick, etc)

I agree with 1x Sigil.

I think cutting at least 1x Wheel of Sun and Moon from the SB might be correct - I don't think they help enough against the reanimator matchup (where I want Crop Rotation -> Bojuka Bog anyways. Or something like Purify the Grave). I just don't think it affects the percentages enough to warrant two slots in the board.

@ novatinhu: Fixed below.

-1 Sigil
+1 Oblivion Ring
-1 Replenish (--> SB)
+1 Enlightened Tutor

-1 Wheel of Sun and Moon (SB)

2 Savannah
1 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Serra's Sanctum
2 Plains
5 Forest
1 Karakas

4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Elephant Grass
4 Sterling Grove
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
3 Solitary Confinement

2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Runed Halo
1 Humility
1 Choke
1 Words of War
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne

1 Replenish
1 Crop Rotation
2 Green Sun's Zenith

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of Sanctity (Combo/Discard/Burn)
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon (Graveyard, Reanimator)
1 Replenish (Control, Counterspells, Maverick)
1 Choke (Blue)
1 City of Solitude (Control)
1 Karmic Justice (Wasteland, Vindicate)
1 Oblivion Ring (Control, Reanimator, Sneaky Show)
1 Runed Halo
1 Raking Canopy (Any flying creatures)
1 Lignify (Reanimator)
1 Crop Rotation
1 Bojuka Bog

Updated Sideboarding (Percentage of top 8's in the last two months)
RUG Delver (19%)
-2 Enlightened Tutor
-4 Sterling Grove
+1 Choke
+1 City of Solitude
+1 Runed Halo
+1 Oblivion Ring
+1 Raking Canopy
+1 Lignify

Maverick (14%)
-1 Choke
-2 Enlightened Tutor
+1 Replenish
+1 Oblivion Ring
+1 Lignify

Sneaky Show/Show and Tell (6%)
-1 Choke
-1 Words of War
-1 Solitary Confinement
+1 Oblivion Ring
+1 Lignify
+1 Runed Halo

Elves (6%)
-1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
-1 Runed Halo
+1 Oblivion Ring
+1 Lignify

Reanimator (5%)
-1 Choke
-1 Words of War
-1 Taiga
-1 Replenish
-1 Solitary Confinement
+1 Oblivion Ring
+1 Lignify
+1 Crop Rotation
+1 Bojuka Bog
+1 Wheel of Sun and Moon

UW Miracles (6%)
-6 ???
+1 Replenish
+1 Choke
+1 City of Solitude
+1 Oblivion Ring
+1 Runed Halo
+1 Raking Canopy

Stoneblade (9%)
-1 Humility
-1 Words of War
-2 Enlightened Tutor
+1 Karmic Justice (For Engineered Explosives)
+1 City of Solitude
+1 Replenish
+1 Oblivion Ring

Zombie Bombardment (1%) (I foresee this being popular)
-1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
-1 Choke
-2 Enlightened Tutor
+4 Leyline of Sanctity

[JanoschEausH]

2 hints: i would NEVER board out win-cons. you have 50 minutes per round to play a bo3. Enchantress tends to have loooong games. If you reduce your win-cons by 50%, you are effectively doubling the amount of time to find a win-con.

against Sneak/Show i would simply board out -3 Solitary Confinements. Why? Because Emrakul laughs at your confinement and Griselbrand is stopped by Elephant Grass.

About the Zombie Bombardement: I think you wont see this much often. The deck is just bad. Everybody knows that. The reason why it has had that much attention, is that Sam Black piloted the deck. Seriously, you could hand Sam Black a M13-Starterpack and he would Top 8 at SCG.

[mrmaul558]

2 hints: i would NEVER board out win-cons. you have 50 minutes per round to play a bo3. Enchantress tends to have loooong games. If you reduce your win-cons by 50%, you are effectively doubling the amount of time to find a win-con.

You do know that this is Enchantress, right? I don't mean to sound condescending or anything, but you are completely ignoring the 6x tutors in the deck. My version runs 4x Sterling Grove and 2x Enlightened Tutor. So what you mean is that I went from 8x win cons to 7x win cons. That's not even close to 50%.

Against Elves or Reanimator... Sigil of the Empty Throne doesn't do anything. Those games are about hating them out early game, then stabilizing. Once you do that, you only need 1x Words of War to win.

Against Stoneblade, it may be correct to keep Words of War in, since they can counter your wincons and if they counter Sigil + Replenish you can't win. But you haven't offered an alternative card to SB out.


against Sneak/Show i would simply board out -3 Solitary Confinements. Why? Because Emrakul laughs at your confinement and Griselbrand is stopped by Elephant Grass.

That may actually be correct, I didn't think of that.

Sneaky Show/Show and Tell (6%)
-1 Choke (Because this card is actually useless against them.)
-2 Solitary Confinement (Is there a card I want more than the 3rd confinement?)
+1 Oblivion Ring
+1 Lignify
+1 Runed Halo


About the Zombie Bombardement: I think you wont see this much often. The deck is just bad. Everybody knows that. The reason why it has had that much attention, is that Sam Black piloted the deck. Seriously, you could hand Sam Black a M13-Starterpack and he would Top 8 at SCG.

Probably not, but the possibility of me playing against it is very real.

[JanoschEausH]

I just wanted to let you know that i failed miserably at my local tournament (70 Players - not even half from what they expected) :)

I died completely to Combo and made some big mistakes.

R1: Lost 0:2 against Aluren
R2: Draw 1:1 against Reanimator (btw. Sigil saved me there so i had Blockers for his fatties)
R3: Lost 1:2 against Landstill (Last 2 Games he played all 4 Standstill within the first 6 Turns of the game... Buried me under card advantage)
R4: Lost 0:2 against Hypergenesis (Game 2 i had Lignify, E-Grass and O-Ring but Terastodon and Progenitus just rule....)
R5: Lost 1:2 against GeddonStaxx (was a draw, but i offered him the win because i wanted to drop anyways)

-> I will try Choke for sure. And play more tournaments to get more used to the deck.

mrmaul558, i hope you do better at your tournament :)

[mrmaul558]

I ended up going 2-3 drop. I'll edit this post with my list (I ended up playing 3x Mirri's Guile in my list and loved it) when I get home from work, but here were my matchups:

Round 1 - RUG Delver - Matt Costa

Starting the day off against a pro! It was pretty cool, actually. Game 1 I kept a two lander with tons of gas (GSZ and Presence), but never drew another land. :/
Game 2 I got there, he just couldn't put enough pressure on me.
Game 3 he was on the play. By his turn three he has a Tarmogoyf in play, 2 duals and a fetch. I have a forest w/Utopia Sprawl for white and a fetch with maybe mirri's guile in play or something. He had very little experience with the deck, so he didn't really know what silver bullets I could be holding for his deck (I was actually surprised). I had Blood Moon in hand, and was hoping that he was going to fetch for a dual on his turn. After considering for a bit, he ended up grabbing Volcanic Island and dropping a delver before passing turn. I untap, and had to ask a judge a stupid question that I already knew the answer to about Utopia Sprawl falling off a dual after Blood Moon comes into play. Long story short, I got too excited when I got back to the table that I just ran my blood moon out there - WITHOUT PLAYING THE KARAKAS IN MY HAND FIRST. So, of course, I forget to play around Daze and what is the only counter in his hand? Daze, of course. That just allows him to keep his manabase up long enough for me to not be able to do anything relevant the rest of the game. I'm not sure I would've actually won had that Blood Moon resolved, but I had a good feeling about the rest of teh game after that Blood Moon. Ugh, not even Round 2 and I hate myself.

Lost 1-2

0-1

Round 2 - Maverick
This matchup isn't even worth describing here. I smashed his face in. He had more cards to take out of his deck than he had relevant ones to put back in (Ended up boarding out 4x Swords to Plowshares and 1x Path to Exile for 1x Ethersword Canonist, 1x Gaddock Teeg, something random, 1x Linvala and 1x Sigarda just because they turned sideways. I proceeded to win this match easily 2-0.

Won 2-0

1-1

Round 3 - Sneaky Show
This had be very, very worried. First spell I see is Lotus Petal so I assume Storm combo or something since he wasn't playing any other non-reactive spells. I didn't see a Show and Tell G1, but he did tap out for Sneak Attack (He was having a rough time of it), which I promptly Oblivion Ring'd to seal up G1.
Game 2 I just made sure I had as many targets to Show and Tell into play as I could, and he ended up getting there with Sneak Attack Emrakul. :/
Game 3 I ripped Humility and Crop Rotation in my opening grip - this was an obvious keep, since the Humility ruined his Show and Tell plan, and Crop Rotation for Karakas kept him off of Emrakul if he was tapped out. It was the best plan I could possibly have against the deck, and I didn't end up needing either one. This game turned into draw-go on both sides for at least 7 turns before I ended up starting to "go off". I ended up winning the match.

Won 2-1

2-1

Round 4 - RUG Delver - Kenny Castor
This matchup is very, very winnable for my deck, but unfortunately he just got 2x Spell Snare for my Argothian's G2 and then G3 he Spell Pierce'd my Presence then proceeded to Surgical Extraction them away. :'( That match didn't last very long. (this guy got 2nd in the tournament, also)

Lost 1-2

2-2

Round 5 - Death and Taxes Homebrew (running 4x Leonin Arbiter in the MD)
Here is where I kick myself, and then I kick myself again. Game 1 I got there easily, this matchup seems very good for me.
Game 2 I had to keep Forest Utopia Sprawl hand, hoping he doesn't have Rishadan Port. Well, he had both that and Thalia to lock me out of the game. :/
Game 3 I was easily able to set up the lock, and just went off for about 4-5 turns straight just running enchantments out there digging for a win con (Completely forgetting to tutor for one and lock up the game). So, while all this was going on, he kept Aether Vial at 2 and didn't scoop for some reason. I racked my brain thinking of what he could possibly have, but I wasn't paying much attention because I was having so much fun going off. With 7 cards in deck and 5x Enchantress effects in play, I cast Words of War, thinking I was set. In response, he taps Vial and lays down a Phyrexian Revoker. -.- FML. For some reason my brain told me that I could still use the ability, but it just wouldn't do any damage, so I proceeded to run Humility out there (something I should've done ages ago)... and decked myself out (Sigil of the Empty Throne was the 60th card in my deck also). And I did end up cutting Emrakul from the deck (And eventually trading it away), so I didn't even have that failsafe for my own stupidity.

...

Lost 1-2

2-3 Drop.

I was so frustrated that I dropped immediately. 5-3 had a chance of getting money (it was only about 220 people or something like that, 8 rounds of swiss), but I didn't feel like playing anymore after losing to myself twice.

But all in all, the deck I think is very well positioned in the meta game with a little luck in not getting paired against storm combo decks and the like. With Maverick and RUG Delver being such a high percentage of the metagame right now, I think Enchantress is actually a fine choice. I'll definitely be looking for more opportunities to play the deck around and get more experience with it (this was my first large Legacy event after all, and my only event playing the completed deck.)

In other Enchantress news - I did get my 2nd Foil Replenish for my deck this weekend! WEEEEEE

[JanoschEausH]

Hey, dont be frustrated - in Legacy its all about practise and making the right decisions. If you play more often with one deck, things will get better in the course of time.
I am, speaking for myself, not very experienced with Enchantress either, but i am not in a bad mood after my desolate performance this weekend. I just need more experience with the deck, which will eventually come by itself.

[mrmaul558]

Hey, dont be frustrated - in Legacy its all about practise and making the right decisions. If you play more often with one deck, things will get better in the course of time.
I am, speaking for myself, not very experienced with Enchantress either, but i am not in a bad mood after my desolate performance this weekend. I just need more experience with the deck, which will eventually come by itself.

I'm both frustrated and glad that I learned something from the experience at the same time. And honestly, I wasn't expecting THAT large of a misplay considering I've been playing various unfinished versions of the deck for 6-8 years now. -.- But, there's always next time. :)

[Freggle]

Gentlemen. I just wanted to say thank you for your reports. You did the archetype proud. As it is already stated enchantress is a difficult archetype to master.

The fact that you took it to a major tournament says your serious about learning, and that should be the key take away. I think you did well. As stated before combo is difficult, and you got through Sneak and Show. That's awesome.

Adding the Mirri's Guile seems strong. Lets face it enchantress mulligans too much, just look at all the tournament reports. Adding the guile and faith in numbers can help you dig to a second or third land and make your initial 7's more keep-able.

My only recommendation would have been force yourself not to drop. The only way you learn is to play more, and you have to force yourself to do it at times.

Looks like the deck rolled over to RUG. Can someone explain to me how this is considered favorable? It seems to me that their beatz backed with the tempo are just a bit too efficient, and sneak under our lock.

@Jason combo is rough. Looking at your SB your yard hate looks slow. I can't not say enough good about Surgical Extraction have you ever tried it? It's always "online" and it's easy for us to draw into it.

[mrmaul558]

The RUG matchup, I think, is favorable, if only slightly. Post board it becomes a bit more even I think, but its still in our favor I think.

In my Round 1 vs. RUG, I'm 90% sure I would've had the game locked up had I been able to resolve Blood Moon, and in my Round 4, he just drew all his hate for me games 2 and 3 (which means I won game 1, which wasn't difficult). The matchup can be draw dependent.

[ForlornEgoist]

I think that RUG is a much more favorable MU postboard than preboard. Now, I'm not a RUG player by any means so I do not pretend to understand completely how they compensate for their weaknesses, but based on how much I've perused the RUG thread I can essentially break down the average SB into the following:

GY Hate: Grafdigger's Cage, Tormod's Crypt, Surgical Extraction
Counters: Spell Snare, Spell Pierce, Red Elemental Blast, Pyroblast
Misc. Meta hate: Krosan Grip, Submerge, Ancient Grudge, Rough/Tumble

GY hate, while annoying, is not life-threatening to our deck strategy. In the absence of creature-based decks like Maverick, Snare, the most relevant of counters against us imo, is seeing much less use. Kgrip is annoying sometimes but they rarely run more than 2. Grudge does absolutely nothing against us, and Rough/Tumble is less common a SB card, moreso with the absence of Maverick, which leaves the Submerge as the most relevant random hate, and tbh not many players I've seen SB these in as they don't really damage us all that much since we can still fall back on Presence and Guile for protection.

Take, in contrast, to our SB options: Leyline of Sanctity, Raking Canopy, Choke, City of Solitude. There are several other choices but I consider these the most common and relevant. Sanctity makes their burn completelty useless (since we don't even run creatures they can target). Canopy, a card not mainstream but still worth of use if RUG is flooded in your meta, kills off what many consider to be the most annoying creature. Choke disables their manabase since very rarely do they run basic forest or mountains, meaning all their colored lands are stapped while simultaneously making it that much harder for them to cast all of their cantrips/counters. City, probably my favorite, completely negates their counters and makes Bstorm less amazing.

Since RUG is the problem DTB for us many players have even been starting to MD Choke/City of Solitude as a 1/1 which seems to have been improving their MU significantly which I consider to be noteworthy.

My opinion for poor MU is mainly that we just need to reach a consensus over the value of certain cards and try to find a more solid MU. The problem with silver bullet deck strategies is that people tend to want to include 1 of everything in the MD. Honestly, our hate is so universal you're much better off keeping those 1-ofs in the SB and having the MD stay as redundant as possible.

Honestly, look at hte average deck build. Essentially, our skeleton breaks down to:
6-8 Fetch
2 Sanctum
0-1 Karakas
5-8 Forest
1-3 Plains

4 Growth
4 Sprawl
4 Argothian
4 Presence
4 Grove
4 Grass
2-4 Confinement
1 Sigil
1 WoW
0-1 Emrakul

This skeleton right off the bat essentially eats up the entire deck selection, leaving only slightly more than 10 slots with which we can work. Also note that in this list I'm throwing cards considered necessary by many like ETutor, Guile, GSZ, and O-Ring in the "flex," category. So, if we add any combination of cards just listed, the amount of deck space we have to work with becomes even less.

I honestly doubt ours is a deck that is ever going to have a skeleton with "absolute," numbers year round since we're a prison-combo deck that relies heavily on the meta. We just need to constantly look at the meta, see whats absolutely necessary and what isn't, and go from there.

Mirr's Guile is one of those debated cards, in my opinion, that enough people don't test. Emrakul, the Aeons Torn is yet another card I think many of those who use it are incredibly fearful to remove because of those times when it has saved them.

I'm going to just end the post here because the next thing I had thought to write was a card breakdown of the pros and cons of cards like Emrakul which, frankly, I could easily write an entire thread page worth. However, this is a nice, basic summary of my opinions on Enchantress currently.

Forlorn Egoist

[Freggle]

Honestly, look at hte average deck build. Essentially, our skeleton breaks down to:
6-8 Fetch
2 Sanctum
0-1 Karakas
5-8 Forest
1-3 Plains
0-½ Mountain

4 Growth - Why is this a must 4 of?
4 Sprawl
4 Argothian
4 Presence
4 Grove - Why is this a must 4 of?
4 Grass
2-4 Confinement
1 Sigil
0-1 WoW
0-1 Emrakul


I think this is a very sound way to approach the conversation. I have added notes above in bold.

I bring this up because if you drop Wild Growth from (3) to (4) you could add (1) Mirri's Guile to help with the overall silver bullet strategy. ...even more-so if you run fetches.

This slight adjustment only effects seeing a Utopia Sprawl or Wild Growth in your opening hand extremely marginally.

If the line-up of the order in which you get and cast the cards are important (which we know they are) Then you could also look to possibly reduce the Enchantress's Presence by (1) and sub in a Green Sun's Zenith. This will give the deck more shuffles and you will see more of the deck.

I also think that paying 3 mana for a tutor is too much, and in many cases the 4th Sterling Grove should be something else. That could possibly be the Enlightened Tutor that makes a lot of peoples lists and also increases shuffles.

Those minor changes will actually increase the consistency of the overall core and free other slots for development.

Remember most of the decks in Legacy run brainstorm / fetch, and this is our version of it 2-3 Mirri's Guile could go a long way. Personally I'd keep a hand that is:

Forest, Mirri's Guile, Windswept Heath, + 4 other non enchantress cards because Guile fetch will statically get you to the card you need.

Forest, Growth, fetch, 4 non-enchantress. Now that's a mulligan.

[ForlornEgoist]

Thank you for the boldened notes, Freggle, as they were things I overlooked. I also should've noted 0-4 Savannah (most common being 0-2) but thats neither here nor there.

To begin, I agree on the note that perhaps cutting the 4/4 of Growth/Sprawl is one of the first steps to freeing slots. In all honestly I only ever really want 1 or 2 in the start of the game and anything after that is really used more for the cheap cantrip. Even if you still wanted to maintain a relatively high count cutting 1-2 of Growth/Sprawl still leaves you with 6-7 which, statistically, is still quite favorable if you want to get 1-2 early in the game. My preference would be for cutting Sprawl due to its weakness of "Forest only," which is relevant. I run 8 fetches + Taiga & Plateau so I've pretty much never run into an issue of color fixing so I most often just name green. Otherwise you could just as easily do a 3/3 split or 4/3-3/4 Growth/Sprawl depending on you manabase.

Moat- If you have 1, you don't really need it, and if you're trying to get one, don't. Moat was all-powerful several years ago in a meta underdeveloped with flying threats. Nowadays you need to worry about Delver, the fact that every cheated creature (Emrakul, Griselband, etc.) has flying, or that Dredge can win via Flayer of the Hatebound. Realistically, its just not a powerhouse anymore.

Sterling Grove- Enchantress is really underplayed in this meta and as such we have to deal with little to any Enchantress hate. Honestly the most hate I, personally, have to deal with in a given game are the 1-2 Krosan Grip from RUG, the Ray of Revelation from Dredge, or the Qasali Pridemage from Maverick. In any of these instances, at best they can kill off 1-2 enchantments. Majority of the cases, as Freggle says, its a 3 cost tutor. Enlightened Tutor is much more sound at 1. I agree with Freggle that cutting 1 Grove for an ETutor could be quite reasonable.

2-3 Mirr's Guile- This is a card I've only just rescently started looking into, however, the strengths are quite obvious in my little playtesting. Fixing our draws ultimately gurantees we'll never have to enter topdeck mode, or draw lands when sitting on 1 Enchantress (yes, this has happened on numerous ocassion where my deck trolled me with lots of topdeck lands). Also to realize that many players, including myself, have mulled until we found that Enchantress in the opening. This is not always the correct player. Having an enchantress on the field is useless if your hand is completely empty. I'm much more willing to keep a non-Enchantress hand if Guile is in it because my redundant fetches will inevitably draw me into what I want when paired with Guile.

Emrakul, the Aeons Torn- I dislike bringing this card up when there is an argument about it on every page, but I still consider it one of the most prominent dead cards people run. In all honesty, after looking at this meta, what are the most prevalent threats?:

RUG- As I listed above postboard with Leyline/Choke/City/Canopy puts the MU heavily in your favor g2/3 and they bring in next to nothing against you.

Dredge- If they don't kill you in the first 3-4 turns you'll pretty much auto-win. Emrakul is completely win-more.

Reanimator- Same argument as Dredge.

Maverick- This MU already sits heavily in your favor. Provided they don't drop too many Thalia or Qasali your early Presence, you can easily win w/o Emrakul.

Miracle/Blade Control- Postboard Choke/City (possibly Leyline for Intuition-based builds), maybe a Vexing Shusher for GSZ builds like me, and you're already having an improved MU. Emrakul is cool since he can't be countered, but before you can cast him you need to resolve not only Enchantress's but a load of permanants to power up Sanctum. Their JOB is to keep you off your spells and, realizing what you are, to kill you as fast as possible. Postboard their plan is to SB out all creature hate for more redundant counters. The MU is made somewhat difficult by Terminus and Porphyr Nodes provide early-game answers to Argothian meaning they can reserve counters for Replenish/Presence so even post SB this is still an annoying MU. Emrakul might have won you those random games you were luckily enough to cast him, but honestly think to yourself: "If I didn't have Emrakul at that time, was there a different way, some subtle nuance to my plays, that could have let me win via WoW/Sigil."

Something I tend to notice with many Enchantress's is that Emrakul is a crutch from not having to think about all the permutations of their plays. As much as our deck doesn't seem like it, we are, at least in part, combo and as such you need to treat every play as if it might keep you from going off and, ultimately, losing the game. Emrakul is much better suited in my opinion as an extra piece of hate.

Random Tribal- We ROFLstomp the main tribal: Goblins, Elves, & Merfolk. Merfolk is the toughest of the three, and even then its an uphill battle for them.

S&T/SA- If they're SA, you'll be kicking yourself that Emrakul wasn't a hate card you could actually cast to stop their creatures, and if its S&T Oblivion Ring or Journey to Nowhere are much more efficient. S&T runs NO enchantment hate, most builds not even in their SB. This means that you can either A)Hope to open with an Emrakul in your hand, or B) Hope you open with either O-Ring or 1 of 6+ tutors we have. Which seems more probable? Not only this, the JtN/O-Ring actually add to your enchantment count, thus boosting your Sanctum.

The only time I've ever liked Emrakul was that he gave me a MD out when my meta was flooded with 3-5+ Painter combos.

My main concern with where Enchantress is going right now is that people are falling back to heavily on what many consider to be our established skeleton with little concern for changing it. "Oh, but I have tutors so if I run into problems? SILVER BULLETS!!!!" Silver bullets are useful for random circumstance where you don't have to worry about excessive counters or random circumstance/hate but ultimately you need redundancy. For example I could easily run 1/1 Choke/City as tutors but I know my opponent will auto-counter so having a 2nd copy of each can be quite handy.

People need to honestly start adapting our skeletons to the meta.

Forlorn Egoist

[waSP]

@ForlornEgoist
You are comparing the kill condition to hate cards? I'm very confused. You should be making an argument about why Sigil/WoW is better and talking about why.

RUG: Sigil comes down earlier and can throw up some blockers potentially.
Dredge: Your kill doesn't matter.
Reanimator: If they have SnT, Emrakul is better. Otherwise, your kill doesn't matter.
Maverick: Your kill doesn't matter.
Miracle: Your kill doesn't matter. Sigil is marginally better in that it pressures them more continuously. WoW is probably the worst of the 3 (Wind, of course, would be excellent, keeping them off their mana).
Tribal: Your kill doesn't matter.
S&T/SA: Emrakul is better if they SnT. Otherwise your kill doesn't matter.
Random decks: Emrakul is more flexible and functions better in the combo/control role (Sigil is more for playing the deck like combo/aggro which is probably not its strongest suit).

[ESG]

It feels like this thread goes in circles, and I'd like to attempt to steer the conversation to results. So this is my suggestion: Keep a record of the tournaments you play with this deck over the next two months, then list the wins and losses against each archetype, as I did two years ago in this thread. This will tell you a lot about what you lose to and why, and we can renew the discussion from there.

Here's mine from two years ago, when I was much less experienced with this deck:

(The win-loss results are in games, and the matchups are organized, roughly, from most favorable to least favorable.)

Goblins (Mono-Red version) 2-0
Goblins (RBG version) 2-0
Dragon Stompy 2-0
Canadian Thresh 4-0
Merfolk (Mono-Blue version) 2-0
Merfolk (UW version) 2-1
Dredge 8-3
Mono-Brown Stax 2-1
Mirror match 1-1
Reanimator 3-3
Zoo 4-7
CounterTop (Progenitus version) 1-2
CounterTop (Dark Depths version) 1-2
Tempo Bant 0-2
CounterTop (UWB Thopter version) 1-2
43 Land 1-2
Blue Lands 1-2
CounterTop (UBW Stiflenought version) 0-2
CounterTop (UBW mill version) 0-2
Deadguy Ale 0-4
ANT 1-4
CounterTop (Firespout version) 1-8


Since then, the printing of Green Sun's Zenith and Emrakul pretty much solved the CounterTop problem.

Are you guys interested in keeping a record like this?

[JanoschEausH]

Yes i like your idea. I will try to keep track of my next tournament results and let you know when i have collected some data.

[Mr Miagi]

Zoo 4-7

seriously??? :eek: You are doing it wrong! :eyebrow:

[ForlornEgoist]

seriously??? :eek: You are doing it wrong! :eyebrow:

If you'll read the entire post you'll note that he says before even posting the MU results that those were his records years ago when he was still very new to playing Enchantress. I'm pretty sure he doesn't have any issues playing Zoo.

Forlorn Egoist

[ESG]

I can attribute some of those losses to mistakes, but even looking back, I feel I played correctly in most of those games. The data set for the Zoo matches might not have been large enough to be truly representative of the matchup. This is partly why I wanted to track results across multiple months. In my experience, the faster builds of Zoo had an edge over Enchantress, especially if they ran Fireblast. My opponents tended to have a lot of enchantment destruction, mainly because CounterTop was the dominant deck in my area. The slower builds were an easy matchup. Zoo is barely played anymore, so the matchup isn't that relevant today.

[lordofthepit]

Zoo is barely played anymore, so the matchup isn't that relevant today.

Rest assured I will try to bring it back to Seattle. :tongue:

[ESG]

To head off undue focus on results from 2010, I used my match history and notes to map out my recent performance. Here are my tournament results with this deck stretching back to the start of the year. Keep in mind that I do play other decks, so this isn't all the games I've played, just all the tournament matches I've played with this particular deck this year.

(Totals represent games, not rounds, and are organized from most favorable to least favorable, based on my impression of the matchup and results over time.)

UW Stoneblade 4-1
Goblins 2-1
Maverick 4-0
Affinity 3-2-1
Merfolk 5-3
RUG Delver 15-5
White Stax 2-1
UW Miracles w/CounterTop 2-0
Hypergenesis 2-0
Natural Order Elves 2-0
Bant 6-2
CounterTop Stiflenought 5-2
Nic Fit/Pod 2-0
Junk 2-0
The Gate 2-1
Esperblade 5-2
UWR Stiflenought 2-1
BW Planeswalkers 2-1
Show and Tell/Helmline 2-1
Zoo 2-0
LEDless Dredge 0-2
LED Dredge 1-2
BUG Control 2-2
Imperial Painter 2-1
MUD Reanimator 0-2
Sneak and Show 1-2
Reanimator 5-4
Show and Tell/Blazing Shoal Infect 1-2
Glimpse Elves 2-1
Pox 1-0
Hive Mind 1-2
Charbelcher 0-2
Doomsday 0-2
Aluren 0-2
Storm (Probe) 1-2
TES 0-4

[Freggle]

Actually, I can back-up ESG here. If you take a sample of average hands of fast Zoo vs. average hands of enchantress. Fast zoo will have the upper hand.

Fast Zoo lists to me are lists that run Wild Nacatl, Steppe Lynx, and the full suite of Qasali Pridemages.

While we are busy dropping growth/sprawls were getting beat for 3(nacatl) to 5(steppe + Qasali) a turn. You can expect our first attempt at stabilization to be pridemaged, and to be burned out fairly quickly while we scramble to assemble confinement + Enchantress. To put it bluntly, fast zoo is fast. It's kind of similar to experiences with RUG delver, but for different reasons. Efficient beaters, and relevant tempo. I'd go as far to say RUG delver is a better MU then fast zoo for us.

Hands that beat fast zoo are multiple grasses and lands, or argothinan (not presence the extra mana and non-pridemage-able matters), and some stall cards.

The MU isn't as favorable as people portray, but it's not utterly horrible either.

@lordofthepit best of luck, I'm a fan of the deck and still keep one sleeved to run the gauntlet with.

@ESG I like the data approach even though it does seem a little like a corporate stall tactic I deal with all to often.

[Valtrix]

So, I don't really play Enchantress, but I've always wondered why the deck doesn't run 3-4 copies of Sigil of the Empty Throne. I can understand Surgical Extraction being a card, so there is worth in a backup win-condition, but it still seems to me that you'd want a a bunch of copies of Sigil.

Why do I say this? Well Sigil seems to be able to win the game quickly if it sticks. It doesn't matter if you spend every turn drawing 4 cards if you don't actually have a win-condition out. However, if you have a Sigil it also doesn't matter if you're drawing cards, since you can play an enchantment almost every turn and keep churning out angels anyway. I feel like finding a win-condition quickly is useful basically all the time, and it lets you deal with counterspells just fine.

[Shawon]

If running 3-4 Sigil were that easy, people would do it. Sigil is pretty good, but it is expensive which makes it a huge liability if you draw multiples in your opening hand. Furthermore, Sigil lets you deal with counterspells fine only after it resolves. Resolving a 5-mana enchantment that can be hit with Daze, Spell Pierce, FoW isn't an easy task, trust me.

Enchantress isn't an aggressive deck, so it needs to deal with pressure either by being very fast or by playing defense. Enchantress isn't fast even if you run 4 Sigil and 4 Grove, so you have no choice but to play defense, hence why the deck focuses on sustaining Solitary Confinement with drawing cards off of Enchantress effects.

[Imaginasian]

Hello! I'm considering running Enchantress at SCG Denver coming up in a few weeks. I've been playing the deck for roughly 6 months now. My meta is very small approximately 6-15 people depending on the day. I've played against RUG Tempo, Maverick, Esperblade, Sneak Attack, TES, ANT, Dredge, Nic Fit, Merfolk, Goblins and the Gate in my meta.

Given how the GP's and the SCG Opens have been going I'm wondering if Enchantress is viable in the current meta? Also on variations of the deck I was looking for opinions in regards to the following:

Is Crop Rotation worth running as a one of?
Is Green Sun's Zenith worthwhile?
Is Blood Moon worth running as a singleton?
Enlightened Tutor yes or no?
Moat or Humility MD?
Sideboard options?
Emrakul or no Emrakul?

I've reached my conclusions on a few of these but wanted some further feedback. Crop rotation seems pretty bad imo unless you have bojuku bog in the side to bring in against decks like Reanimator or Dredge or to fetch out Serra's Sanctum.

I love Green Sun's Zenith in Enchantress unless you already have all 4 Enchantress's in play (yes this has happened before) making them dead draws.

I tried running a singleton Blood Moon and never liked it, plus the fact that its counterproductive when trying to use Sanctum to kill them with WoW.

Enlightened Tutor I've heard both pros and cons to it. Seems bad when RUG Tempo is running Thought Scour and just 2 for 1's us when we do that.

I own a Moat so there is no concerns about not being able to run it. Generally or at least in my meta Moat seems better game 1 and gets worse depending on the matchup games 2 and 3. I don't like Humility in this deck despite helping against things that ruin our day like Pridemage. Having my enchantress's get sworded was awful and just slowed the engine down.

All the sideboards I've seen seem about the same. The one Raking Canopy in Tyrel Kizer's decklist from SCG Vegas was about the newest tech I've seen and never knew that card even existed.

Emrakul seems good and the fact that we can hardcast him quite often leads me to believe that he is definitely worth running. Plus the fact that if we get close to decking ourselves, we can just discard him to shuffle everything back in has saved me quite a few times.

[ESG]

If you have four Enchantresses in play, you will almost always win the game. It's very unlikely to lose from that position. Green Sun's Zenith is an auto-include for me.

The only matchups I would like Blood Moon in would be Aggro Loam, Lands and Turbo Drazi, and those decks have minimal presence. I don't run it.

I don't run Enlightened Tutor, but it's a strong card worthy of the slot in some metagames. Surgical Extraction and Aven Mindcensor also interfere with E Tutor, so keep that in mind.

I ran Raking Canopy in my sideboard once at a ~40-person tournament, which I won, but I ended up not needing to side it in. I ran it at a local event once or twice, and it was OK. I don't currently run it, but it's a legit card.

I'm a big fan of Emrakul. I like Crop Rotation but not in this deck. I have spoken in more detail about these two things recently, so I'm not going to belabor my reasons here, but you can find them in the past several pages.

[ForlornEgoist]

Given how the GP's and the SCG Opens have been going I'm wondering if Enchantress is viable in the current meta? Also on variations of the deck I was looking for opinions in regards to the following:

Is Crop Rotation worth running as a one of?
Is Green Sun's Zenith worthwhile?
Is Blood Moon worth running as a singleton?
Enlightened Tutor yes or no?
Moat or Humility MD?
Sideboard options?
Emrakul or no Emrakul?


Frankly all of these topics have been discussed at length over the course of the past 10 pages or so thusly I'll be following ESG in not giving elaborate answers.

Crop Rotation: Cute, but unnecessary. I typically only want a Sanctum when I'm ready to start going off. Its less-than-efficient early game, especially if its in the opening 7, and all it will do is auto-draw a Wasteland-target before you have time to abuse it. Rotation is pointless to have in your opener and by the time you're ready to win you can easily abuse your Growths/Sprawls to draw into Sanctum. I'd much rather you run a Wishboard than Rotations.

Green Sun's Zenith: Redundancy is what Enchantress flourishes on and running 2-3 of these pretty much gurantees you'll get an Enchantress effect in the opening hand. Not to mention you can do small things like, saying, GSZ->Shusher.

Blood Moon: Honestly the power of BM in this meta is more that most decks don't expect us to run it so they get greedy with their manbases. Dropping this G1 can catch a player completely by surprise. Beyond this, there are very few decks which BM hurts that can't play around it, and the decks that do (like Dredge) are already semi-good MU for us. Really its just a preference card. I've been a Dragon Stompy player for years so I love using BM but I don't think its overall advantageous to run it.

Enlightened Tutor: As a general rule, yes. Tutors are quite useful for Enchantress as we love silver bullet strategies. The consensus tends to be 1-2 for ET.

Moat/Humility: Moat is next to dead in this format. Sure, it hurts tribal and Maverick something fierce, but RUG still has Delver, their primary creature, to fly over it and most cheated creatures like Griselband or Emrakul have flying. Humility kills off a lot more threats but slows down your engine. However, considering we have Presence and 5-6 tutors, I think this is a worthy trade depending on the game state. Only run Humility as a 1 of, however.

Emrakul, the Aeons Torn: I talk about him nonstop so I'm simplifying my opinion heavily. Look back through the pages if you want an in-depth answer. I think there is one 1-2 back. Hes expensive, does nothing to affect the game state until you can essentially win, is win-more in this meta, and frankly is a poor answer to decks with S&T. I'd much rather a person run something realistic like a 2nd Sigil.

Sideboard: Heres some common choices:
Surgical Extraction
Grafdigger's Cage
Tormod's Crypt
Raking Canopy
Wheel of Sun and Moon
Karmic Justice
Replenish
Blood Moon
Carpet of Flowers
Choke
City of Solitude
Leyline of Sanctity
Null Rod
Stony Silence
Runed Halo
Nevermore
Dovescape
Circle of Protection: Red
Warmth
Aegis of Honor

Theres many more selections but from these cards are the typical choices for Enchantress SB.

Forlorn Egoist

[mrmaul558]

I'll be attending the Jupiter Games tournament this weekend - piloting my Enchantress list yet again. :) (I never updated my tourney report with the list I settled on, did I? I'll have to do that when I get home.)

[Imaginasian]

This is my current list that I'm running. Nothing too innovative or spectacular just the streamlines versions that I have seen. Currently I've only lost to Esperblade and NicFit. My loss to Esperblade came from the 3rd game where I didn't board Leyline and he thoughtseized me 3 times because of snapcaster flashback. NicFit just rolled me like I thought it would. Got locked out by Volrath's Stronghold recurring Pridemage back over and over first game and 2nd game I got deeded anytime I started to build steam.

2 Arid Mesa
7 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
2 Plains
2 Savannah
2 Serra's Sanctum
1 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath

4 Argothian Enchantress
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Replenish

3 Elephant Grass
4 Enchantress's Presence
2 Mirri's Guile
1 Moat
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Runed Halo
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
3 Solitary Confinement
4 Sterling Grove
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
1 Words of War

Sideboard

2 Carpet of Flowers
3 Choke
1 City of Solitude
1 Ground Seal
1 Humility
1 Karmic Justice
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Raking Canopy
1 Stony Silence

I'm trying to get ready for SCG Denver and looking at how strong the deck is against the field. I haven't lost to Maverick or RUG Tempo so far but I've only been playing the deck nonstop for about 3 weeks now. It may be the fact that my meta is not experienced as others and no one knows how our deck operates until its too late? NicFit seems highly unfavorable because as noted in the past pages deed just poops all over us. Is there anything to make that MU more favorable? Is NicFit seeing play in other metas?

[ESG]

The strategy against Nic Fit shifts slightly depending on whether the list is closer to Maverick or closer to Junk. Compost is usually very good. If eternal Pridemages are the issue, Replenish and/or double Grove is good, and Karmic Justice should shut down Pridemages and Deeds. If they're running more than four pieces of discard, Leylines are good. Pithing Needle is an offbeat but flexible card that could come in if you already had it for another matchup. Also, just do your best to play around Deed as much as possible. Don't overextend unless you can come out ahead if/when they wipe the board.

[Imaginasian]

The strategy against Nic Fit shifts slightly depending on whether the list is closer to Maverick or closer to Junk. Compost is usually very good. If eternal Pridemages are the issue, Replenish and/or double Grove is good, and Karmic Justice should shut down Pridemages and Deeds. If they're running more than four pieces of discard, Leylines are good. Pithing Needle is an offbeat but flexible card that could come in if you already had it for another matchup. Also, just do your best to play around Deed as much as possible. Don't overextend unless you can come out ahead if/when they wipe the board.

It's almost a hybrid of both Maverick and Junk honestly. Pulse, Deed, Sun Titan, Grave Titan, Witness, Recurring Nightmare, etc. I'm actually very familiar with most legacy decks with NicFit being an exception. Thanks ESG for the advice. I might have to MD Karmic Justice if everyone in my meta starts to sideboard for me and I continue to play Enchantress.

[Freggle]

Pithing Needle is an offbeat but flexible card that could come in if you already had it for another matchup.

+1

Pithing Needle is extremely well positioned right now.

I have been testing it in variants to enchantress and is great as long as you know what to name.

Sneak Show - Sneak Attack (not Griselbrand grass will stop that)
Maverick - Qasali Pridemage
Nic Fit - Pernicious Deed
Esper blade - game state dependant Engineered Explosives / Jace, The Mind Sculptor
Pox - Liliana of the Veil
Miracle Control - Sensei's Divining Top (if you need it)

As ESG said it is extremely versatile, and can shut down popular tactics against us. Works better in lists sporting Enlightened Tutor though.

Is the 4th Wild Growth > the 4th Elephant Grass?

[Imaginasian]

+1

Pithing Needle is extremely well positioned right now.

I have been testing it in variants to enchantress and is great as long as you know what to name.

Sneak Show - Sneak Attack (not Griselbrand grass will stop that)
Maverick - Qasali Pridemage
Nic Fit - Pernicious Deed
Esper blade - game state dependant Engineered Explosives / Jace, The Mind Sculptor
Pox - Liliana of the Veil
Miracle Control - Sensei's Divining Top (if you need it)

As ESG said it is extremely versatile, and can shut down popular tactics against us. Works better in lists sporting Enlightened Tutor though.

Is the 4th Wild Growth > the 4th Elephant Grass?

I like the 4th Wild Growth over the 4th Elephant Grass. IMO the 4th Wild Growth is better since people in my meta realized that taking the ramp from us slows us down significantly enough to the point where they can stabilize against us. I have to test different numbers but I'm basically running Paul Lynch's Ginger Enchantress list from an SCG Open some months ago with -1 Blood Moon and +1 Emrakul.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

I would never run less than 4 Elephant Grass.

I ran this list at SCG DC

8x Enchantresses
2x GSZ

4x Wild Growth
4x Sprawl
2x Exploration

4x Grass
3x Confinement
3x Sterling Grove

3x Ground Seal
2x Replenish
1x Words of War
1x Sylvan Library
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Choke
1x Seal of Primordium

2x Sanctum
3x Savannah
1x Taiga
5x fetchlands (mixed)
9x Forest

SB:

3x Leyline of Sanctity
4x Carpet of Flowers
3x Enlightened Tutor
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Stony Silence
1x Humility
1x Yavimaya Enchantress
1x Choke

I beat Goblins and then Bant, lost to RUG Delver, beat RUG Delver, lost to BUG Delver (Engineered Plague/Explosives), then lost to a RWB aggro control list and dropped.

What I learned from this experience;

People that aren't running Ground Seal should be. The extra card can make an enormous difference, especially when drawing multiple Ground Seals. The ability to randomly cut off cards like Surgical Extraction is gravy on top of it.

Elephant Grass should always be a 4x. It's the thing that tilts the Delver match-up for us, plus Maverick/Zoo/Merfolk/Goblins, all of which are relevant right now.

MD Choke is really good at any SCG event.

My SB was very disappointing. Most of my losses came from poor sideboarding on my part.

These are the changes I would make if I was going to Kansas City

SB:

-1 Yavimaya Enchantress
-3 Enlightened Tutor
-1 Tormod's Crypt
+1 Lignify
+2 Kirtar's Desire
+1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
+1 Seal of Primordium

The Yavimaya was cute but not as effective as it needed to be. Kirtar's Desire would be better against Delver, and Sigil would be better against Stoneblade/Miracles.

Decks like Delver want to land one threat and then just draw into answers against us. Kirtar's Desire and Lignify can slow their plan down tremendously, making them waste resources landing another threat.

[B is for Big Job]

I would never run less than 4 Elephant Grass.


2x Exploration



That is awesome you ran Exploration in your list if you haven't been running them yet. They help keep the combo going and being able to play multiple Sanctums in 1 turn if they wasted the first one is awesome, I play an Emrakul in my list so it helps ramp that much faster. I also agree with the MD Ground Seals. The extra card can really help especially if you draw what into them or you get what you need off of it. Also it helps game 1 against Reanimator turn it into extra gravy. Did it ever really hurt not running a singleton plains? I know E-tutor is a staple for some decks but I've cut it awhile back because I felt they were kind of clunky and they arent an enchantment and I havent really missed it. What happened in your match-ups that would make you cut them completely?

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

In weighing E. Tutor vs. GSZ, the decision for me came down to the amount of blue I was expecting to face. E. Tutor is more card disadvantage that you don't want, since as I mentioned in my sideboarding comments, the matches usually become attrition based.

The lack of a basic plains hasn't hurt me. I did get cut off of white once, but that was my fault for Groving a Wild Growth instead of a Utopia Sprawl, and then hitting all the basic forests in the deck off my 2 Enchantresses, and stalling out long enough for him to hit all my white.

[Freggle]

Inspired a bit by Spatula's no Basic plains list I took the following list to a local tournament:

Creatures (6)
4 Argothian Enchantress
2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Sorcery (1)
1 Green Sun's Zenith

Instant (1)
1 Crop Rotation

Artifact (1)
1 Pithing Needle

Enchantments (32)
Draw
4 Enchantress's Presence

Card Quality
2 Mirri's Guile

Ramp
4 Utopia Sprawl
3 Wild Growth

Stall
4 Elephant Grass
4 Energy Field
2 Solitary Confinement
3 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Sea's Claim <--Get Karakas

Attrition
1 Karmic Justice

Wins
2 Defense of the Heart
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne

Mana (19)
1 Island
7 Forest
2 Karakas
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Serra's Sanctum
2 Forbidden Orchard
1 Savannah

Sideboard:
1 Solitary Confinement
1 Pithing Needle
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Seal of Removal
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Sterling Grove
2 Grafdigger's Cage

I decided to play this as opposed to my Spreading Illusions (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23437-Developmental-Spreading-Illusions-An-Enchantress-Variant) deck to help out and do my part in this thread.

Some card choices in the end were not optimal (Grafdigger's cage / Defense interaction) because I threw it together as a melding of the two lists overnight. Even though I have played traditional enchantress I wanted to play something I was more familiar with in the current meta. I hope people can find this useful.

I placed 5th out of 21. OF COURSE this would be the first time they would not play out the top eight and just cut to top 4. So my 3-1-1 record wouldn't get me there (stupid tie breakers)

Anyhow the match-ups:

Round 1 W/G Maverick? 2-0

Boarded in 3rd confinement.

Defense -> Emrakul fast both games.

Round 2 Burn 2-0

Energy Field was a rock star. Was beat down to 2 like turn 4 and stabilized off the (Multiple Goblin Guides and rift bolts). Won off of E. Field WoSaM lock.

Game 2 board in Solitary- T2 Energy Field and just sat there. Got the Defense of the Heart -> Forbidden Orchard scam going and my opponent was using their burn to keep it from triggering. I built up a solid hand of enchantress effects and solitary in the mean time but never had to use it. Opponent scooped after he couldn't beat defense many turns deep.

Round 3 Goblins 2-0

Energy Field / Wheel of Sun and Moon turn 3 both games forcing the scoop. I asked where were the REB's and then he pointed out he kept a hand that was just vial and cavern of souls. It was a long way from being found and cast.

Round 4 Deadguy Ale 1-2

Won the first game off of Confinement / Defense. I never saw the discard so I assumed it was a board controlling version and left out the Leyline but brought in confinenment, and Sterlings. Got blown out by Cabal Therapy.

I was on the draw. My hand was Argothian, Argothian, Utopia, Utopia, Elephant, Forest, Forest. My opponent blind calls Utopia, followed by the flashback on argothian

I was decimated. I stabilized off of Energy Field for many but got blown out by Serenity

Game 3 I had lost the Sterlings, needle, and sea's claim for Leylines.

I had my first mulligan of the day with a leyline no land hand. Kept a 6 card hand with action and no Leyline. Lost a tight long game in the last 5 turns Recovered through multiple Serenitys but just didn't get there.

Round 5 Bant Natural Order 1-1

Won game one off of E Field / Wosam & E Grass.

Lost a 30 turn game 2 in extra turns to multiple Engineered Explosives. I played Needle, but named Qasali before I knew Engineered was in the board.

All in all minus some tweaks and fixes I loved this list. I think I mulliganed only 2 the whole tournament which is a vast improvement to many lists I have been playing. Mirri's Guile is that good. I still also find E. Field to be super good, but I understand why people wouldn't play it.

Crop Rotation was kinda horrible, and never played Sigil.

Hopefully this helps.

EDIT: Variation from the decks core in (Bold):


6-8 Fetch (-2 to 4 Fetch)
2 Sanctum
0-1 Karakas (+1 to 2 Karakas)
5-8 Forest
1-3 Plains (- 1 to 3 Plains)
0-½ Mountain (-½ Mountain)

4 Growth (-1 Wild Growth)
4 Sprawl
4 Argothian
4 Presence
4 Grove (-4 Grove main)
4 Grass
2-4 Confinement
1 Sigil
0-1 WoW
0-1 Emrakul

[Freggle]

Sorry for the double post but I have new information.

After playing this list more on MWS today I have denoted the weaker slots with an * & the strong non-core slots with a ++ below:


Creatures (6)
4 Argothian Enchantress
2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn* - Possibly the second one.

Sorcery (1)
1 Green Sun's Zenith++

Instant (1)
1 Crop Rotation*

Artifact (1)
1 Pithing Needle* - questionable only because it is not easy to call the right card and it does not cantrip

Enchantments (32)
Draw
4 Enchantress's Presence

Card Quality
2 Mirri's Guile++

Ramp
4 Utopia Sprawl
3 Wild Growth

Stall
4 Elephant Grass
4 Energy Field++
2 Solitary Confinement
3 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Oblivion Ring++
1 Sea's Claim*

Attrition
1 Karmic Justice++

Wins
2 Defense of the Heart
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne

Mana (19)
1 Island
7 Forest
2 Karakas
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Serra's Sanctum
2 Forbidden Orchard
1 Savannah

Sideboard:
1 Solitary Confinement
1 Pithing Needle
3 Surgical Extraction* - the third one
2 Seal of Removal* - Doesn't seem needed
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Sterling Grove
2 Grafdigger's Cage*


I also played some games among friends today and yielded the following results:

Sneak and Show 4-0 [Multiple Emrakul's, Needle, Oring, Multiple Karakas's, plus the normal hate is too much for this deck]
Fast Zoo 3-0 [E. Grass, E. Field, and Solitary are rock stars]
Big Zoo 2-0 [see above]

Yes it was a lucky day.

This list is still weak to the normal :u: & :b: based strategies, but better to the super fast aggro ones.

I personally do not miss the Sterling Groves at all. It competes with Karmic Justice for a slots. So ultimately it comes down to Card Advantage vs. Card Quality

As mentioned earlier Sterling Grove primarily acts as a 3 mana top deck tutor which is inefficient and card disadvantage. When it functions in its other role as enchantment shroud provider it is of my opinion that more business enchantments are better.

Shroud is only worth anything when a destruction or exile spell or effect targets. At which point Sterling Grove acts as card quality since it is the only viable target (outside of multiple groves then nothing can target) making the other quality enchantments seemingly impervious. It's a good ability. At which point if it is targeted you can pay :1: sac it and top deck any enchantment. That is still card that is not card disadvantage (net push 1 for 1), but is card quality.

I also find Sterling Grove not all that easy to cast, and overall adds more clunkyness, durdeling to the deck and can slow down some openers. Looking at Grove you may decide to top deck tutor into a presence perhaps inventing a whole line of inefficient slow play

Sterling Grove is still weak to what the entire deck is weak to which is board wipes, but can still provide card quality when mana is open.

Compare this to Karmic Justice. Karmic in an opening hand is just as bad so you will be running at max 3 total copies, but it also can act as either a card advantage engine or a card quality outlet (depending on how your opponent want to combat it.)

When targeting something other than Karmic Justice your opponent has to be hard pressed to choose something over targeting the Justice to not get completely buried under card advantage & quality removal. Karmic also has the added benefit of being very good at deterring mas removal tactics or making them moot.

I also find Karmic easier to cast like off of 1 giant Sanctum tap for example. Too bad Karmic doesn't work with annihilator.

Where Karmic is bad is in the combo MU this is where you basically switch the deck to trying to lock down Leyline with Sterling.

So all-in-all I feel that this untweaked list gives the deck the most well rounded game 1 MU's against most of the meta as it stands today. Maybe I'd make the followng changes:

-1 Crop Rotation
-1 Sea's Claim - Look to Legend Rule opponents Karakas's

+1 Solitary Confinement
+1 Karmic Justice

[ForlornEgoist]

In regards to Sterling Grove we also need to look at the primary threats our enchantments will face. Lets analyze the field quickly for DTB:

RUG/UR Delver
Maverick
Miracle Control
Combo (Dredge/Reanimator/S&T/SA)
Rock/Nic Fit

In all of the above categories what are going to be the primary cards that "target," enchantments? Of course there will be varying degrees of SB's but I think with confidence I can say Krosan Grip from RUG/UR, Qasali Pridemage from Maverick/Rock, and Ray of Revelation from Dredge. Beyond these cards our enchantments are much more likely to be removed via discard, board removal (eg. Deed) or as is the most common case for us, counters.

I'm unsure as to the rest of Enchantress players here but in a majority of situations Grove became a 3 cost tutor. In this meta I honestly don't think its not MD material as our enchantments get removed typically either by counter, discard, or board sweep. Enlightened Tutor, Mirri's Guile, Green Sun's Zenith are just among a few card selections which I believe warrant MD space over Grove.

Now, don't mistake this suggestion as me denying Groves necessity in this deck. I understand completely what it provides (and having been an Enchantress player for years can safetly say it has saved my deck) however Enchantress is a deck many people are fearful to play in a counter-heavy meta and as such few players worry about having targeted enchantment removal. A 3cc tutor seems hardly viable, particularly since it requires we waste a turn to do it early game. I still think that having access to Grove is important, so perhaps it can be a 2 of in the sideboard. I, myself, intend to do thorough testing without it MD and see how it affects the deck.

Forlorn Egoist

[mrmaul558]

Went to Jupiter Games this weekend, ended up 3-3. I'm getting better, though, and I'm excited for the chance to play the deck again.

I ran the same MD as I did at SCG:Buffalo (I am in love with this list - it runs so smooth.)

4x Windswept Heath
2x Misty Rainforest
1x Wooded Foothills
2x Savannah
1x Taiga
1x Karakas
2x Serra's Sanctum
5x Forest
2x Plains

4x Argothian Enchantress
4x Enchantress's Presence
4x Sterling Grove
4x Elephant Grass
3x Solitary Confinement
3x Mirri's Guile
4x Wild Growth
4x Utopia Sprawl

1x Choke
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Runed Halo
1x Words of War
1x Humility
1x Sigil of the Empty Throne
2x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Replenish
1x Crop Rotation

SB:
4x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Stony Silence (I was told that Metalworker was popular here. I didn't see it, but there were lists there)
1x Karmic Justice
1x Replenish
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Runed Halo
2x City of Solitude
1x Choke
1x Crop Rotation
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Card I can't remember

Round 1: Zombie Bombardment
I had this matchup easy - won game 1, lost G2 to too much discard. G3, however, I kept a completely unplayable hand in one of my worst misplays in memory.

0-1

Round 2: Countertop
Game 1 I got him good; He had countertop in play and had just played Jace so he only had one island untapped. I had a graveyard full of goodies (Choke, etc) that he had countered. I baited his counter with a Confinement, which ie then CounterTop'd. I then cast Replenish to his tapped out board and no counter in hand; He scooped a few turns later.

Game 2 he overran me with 3 Mishra's Factory before I could get anything going. :/

Game 3 was a close, close game; late in the game, he had me at three with 3 Mishra's Factory in play (AGAIN). I had a City of Solitude in play, so he was just blind-flipping at this point. I Mirri's Guile'd into a Choke and some other cards - if he had be at any life total above three or had 1 less Factory, Choke would've won me the game since at this point, his islands were all tapped. But, unfortunately, 3x Factories alone gets there for 3 damage. I survived that turn off of a confinement I think, but lost shortly thereafter.

0-2 (At this point I was out of contention, but I didn't know it yet. I thought 4-2 was going to T16, so I kept playing.)

Round 3: UR Delver

This guy didn't even show me a counterspell (FOW or otherwise) Games 1 or 2. Suffice it to say, he did not get there.

1-2

Round 4: Sneaky Show (Jon Barber)

Well, going into this round I was 1-0 lifetime against this deck; also, this was a friend of mine who was also 1-2, so one of us was going to be really boned after this round. Game 1 he drew a million lands and didn't get the second piece to the combo. Game 2 he T2 Show and Tell'd Emmy into my Oblivion Ring, and couldn't get anymore action afterwards.

2-2

Round 5: RUG Delver

I still insist that this matchup is favorable against us unless they have the nuts draw. This match went well for me; he just couldn't get nearly enough pressure in time (G1 he had me at 10 and G2 he had me at 13 when I locked). I'm not sure if it was because he didn't know what to counter or what... but this matchup went very easy for me.

3-2

I was pretty excited at this point; 4-2 was supposed to T16 (There were less than 80 people there, I think?), so I was win-and-in after going 0-2 (or so I thought. Turns out 0-2 breakers took me out of contention anyways).

Round 6: Sneaky Show

God damn it. Of course its a combo deck that gets me in the last round. Well, I was 2-0 against the deck, so I was almost kind of optimistic. Game 1, he got T3 Griselbrand. That card is actually worse for us than Emrakul or just about anything else they could Show and Tell, I think. The fact that they just draw 7-14 cards off of him is just dumb, and makes it so that unless you Show and Tell Humility into him, there's nothing you can do afterwards. I'm pretty sure Humility is the only thing I have that stops him from drawing cards off of him...

G2 he got T2 Griselbrand. *sigh* (However, this opponent went 4-2 and didn't T16 either. That felt pretty good. :P)

3-3

All-in-all, it was a very good tournament experience for me. I only made one glaring misplay as opposed to the 2x I made at the starcity and I think I played tighter all around this time, so there's definitely been improvement and there will be more on the way as I try and attend more events. I still feel very good about the deck in this meta (as long as I don't get paired against storm combo all day. :P )

[cthulhu_dude23]

I dont understand why anyone would be afraid to play enchantress in a counter heavy environment. Frankly I love the blue matchup. Yes spell pierce can be annoying, but you just have to bait out their counterspells with other important cards (choke, city), or run engine cards down their throat until they cant counter one. And when that one engine piece resolves, unless they have a geist and sword online, you'll probably end up winning the game. Now if they have a counter for every spell, then thats the way the cookie crumbles, but that rarely happens. Not to mention that at larger tournaments people either dont realize that you still draw a card even if the enchantment is countered, or they underestimate our engine. At which point I chuckle and think to myself, "i have more enchantments than you have counterspells, and eventually you will run out." And if they go for the "counter pretty much everything game plan," then a mid game replenish usually resolves and they now have nothing left.

I also extremely disagree with cutting our growth/utopia count to 7 instead of 8 to free up slots. Without that turn 1 boost our deck is extremely slow, and there better be a damn good reason for keeping a hand above 5 without one in it. The ramp accelerates our gamplan a whole turn, which as we all know is huge in legacy. Theres a reason why our deck was unplayable when mental misstep was legal, and this is largely it. I would never dream of playing anything less than 8, and if I were looking to free up slots Id do it elsewhere.

I also disagree with cutting groves out of the deck. I easily consider it one of our strongest cards. To say that it is card disadvantage is completely false, because unless you've played it before an enchantress effect (which only should happen on a bad string of mulligans) it has already drawn you at least 1 card. So it is stricly better than E. Tutor in that regard. Karmic justice really doesnt do anything that grove outright prevents aside from mass enchantment hate (which the only one that is played that comes to mind is reverent silence out of wish boards). Not to mention that against decks that have no targeted hate you can agressively filter your draws when needed. It does far more for our worst matchups than justice does, and even outright prevents them from choosing a critical card to destroy in the matchups with removal. Because if they they just have to swing in with a few dudes to kill you, they will destroy the grass or confinement that is the only thing saving you, and still attack with 1 less guy. So Id rather prevent that from happening in the first place (corner case yes, but it can and has happened once or twice). On the topic of using it to divert removal, why arent you just chaining groves? Ive done that against maverick before, and its not like they can counter the enchantment you put on top so there really arent any problems there.

[ESG]

The ramp accelerates our gamplan a whole turn, which as we all know is huge in legacy. Theres a reason why our deck was unplayable when mental misstep was legal, and this is largely it.

If you found the deck unplayable, you didn't adapt. I'm all for ramp, though.


Karmic justice really doesnt do anything that grove outright prevents aside from mass enchantment hate (which the only one that is played that comes to mind is reverent silence out of wish boards).

Reverent Silence is barely played. Karmic Justice is mainly to answer Engineered Explosives and Pernicious Deed.

[Freggle]

@Mrmaul558

Nice to see you had a decent run. Sorry you didn't quite make the top 16, but playing the max matches will only make you better.

@Forlorn Egoist

Thank you for succinctly saying what I have been fumbling with. Sterling Grove is a great card it is just not positioned very well right now.

@cthulhu_dude23

I respect your opinion, and at this point I’ll have to say to each his own. I think you put too much stock into the 8th Growth. Statically speaking it affects your opening 7 1.5 in 100 games or roughly 1 game in a 33 round tournament each round going to game 3.

Probability of 1 of 8 successes in a 60 population sample 7 = 0.421712174396046
Probability of 1 of 7 successes in a 60 population sample 7 = 0.416104299736525

It is for Magic statistically the same.

As for Sterling Grove there is no question it is powerful under the right conditions. …but you have to remember you do not control those conditions, and the meta is leaning away from an environment where Sterling Grove is good. The tutor ability alone is bad it’s a crappy Idyllic Tutor.

Then you also have to weigh the alternative. If shroud was the be-all-end-all of Magic then any white deck should run Standard Bearer I know it a little rough to say that, but there is some truth in the statement. It is to show that many times it is better to run more “business” than it is to protect what you believe to be the business.

Consider this you’re just about 4 times more likely to get a 2 Sterling Grove hand than you are to feel the effects of 1 less growth spell.

Probability of 2 of 4 successes in a 60 population sample 7 = 0.0593435663969977

This number only goes up the more draws we have, and Grove is situationally bad in multiples.




…but enough about that. Our strength is our primary game plan trumps almost all other viable game plans in Magic.

There are 4 win cons in Magic:
*Life @ 0
*Poison @ 10
*Can't draw
*I win cards

To combat these we have (respectively):
*Damage Prevention (Solitary Confinement & Energy Field*)
*Damage Prevention (Solitary Confinement & Energy Field*) - Poison is tied to damage.
*Graveyard recursion & Shroud (Wheel of Sun and Moon*, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn & Solitary Confinement : SB : Leyline of Sanctity)
*Removal (Oblivion Ring, Karmic Justice)

*not widely accepted

Therefore, I'm beginning to think we would be better off by tuning our sideboard to just push forward our main game plan as opposed to cherry-picking certain archetypes, and get our main as redundant as possible.

It has been identified many times over that our nemeses are counter magic, discard, permanent sweepers and fast combo so let's break each one down.

Counter Magic

As Folorn Egoist said the best way to beat counters is redundancy. This is part of the reason why I still feel the inclusion of Energy Field is a good call for the main deck. In many situations it is functionally identical to Solitary Confinement but is a little less forgiving on it's condition. Common strategies for combating :U: are:

City of Solitude
Choke
Carpet of Flowers
Replenish

City of Solitude, Replenish & Choke being the most popular. These strategies look to deplete the control deck by making them counter these spells or eventually loose by cutting of their mana or closing the window of interacting with our spells on the stack. As cthulhu_dude23 points out.

The problems with these spells are they are not good in multiples. They are mildly cost prohibitive for enchantress @ 3 & 4 (you want to keep the curve as low as possible) and their effects do not stack well (you really only wan to resolve 1)

…but what is the alternative?

I'd like to propose a 3rd strategy Multani's Presence. I know, I know I have laughed at this card time and time again. …but as it turns out as the deck gets more and more redundant this spell is more, and more powerful. It’s major pros are:
• It is the exact perfect casting cost for the deck
• It can only be Force of Willed T1 on the play (which is still a bad play on the part of the control player)
• T2 provided we hit a ramp T1 it can be cast outside of Spell Pierce and Daze range.
• It effectively nullifies their core strategy.
• Stacks well.
I have been testing it tonight, and I have to say it is a little mind boggling this “silly” card is in :u: MU’s

Discard

***Theroy-craft warining***
I would imagine it would be the same if we were to use Compost in our “tough” black MU’s. Redundancy and independent card drawing should trump black tactics.

Board Sweepers

Seems to me is hands down Karmic Justice

Fast Combo

I’m not entirely sure what this should be yet. Until proven otherwise it will be Leyline of Sanctity.

So newly tooled SB looks like:

4 Multani's Presence(:u:)
4 Compost (:b:)
4 Leyline of Sanctity (combo)
2 Sterling Grove combo (Heavy Targeting & Combo)
1 ? Replenish? - (:u: & :b:)

Make piloting easier too.

[cthulhu_dude23]

@esg i wasnt thinking of deed, and once you take out groves the decks that board EE usually cant do it for more than 2 and that only hits halo and argothian in traditional build. And when they pop it for 1 it mainly harms us in the early game when we wont have a justice down. Deed only sees play in nic fit and bugstill, so personally im not for playing a mainboard justice.

During the MM era there werent a whole lot of decks around that gave us a favorable matchup imo. Then again i was primarily playing NOBant at the time, so im probably wrong.

@freggle ive got to give you props for defending your point and providing a clear and precise argument. You provided stats that are very convincing for cutting the 8th growth card.

I guess the primary reasons for my position is that ive never really had a problem with groves in the traditional build of enchantress. And that ive never really liked the wheel/field version of the deck.

In that version there really isnt room for grove, so its perfectly reasonable to cut it. I find that in the traditional version it is no more worse in the late game than say a wild growth, and it has an upswing aside from drawing cards if it needs one.

The wheel/field version has always come of to me as more clunky as it is a 2 card combo where as the only other cards confinement needs are your engine pieces which you bring out anyway. Not to mention it takes up so many slots in the deck and extra pieces of the same card are completely useless. And you dont gain shroud which hurts against combo.

Ive never felt a draw to this version or really felt the need to play it to be honest.

I do like presence as another answer to the U matchup and could see running a couple in the sideboard for it.

As you said freggle, to each his own. As Ive said before, i am rather stubborn and a stickler for the traditional. It takes a lot of evidence to convince me to make a larger paradigm shift like this one, and i just dont believe in it.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Karmic Justice isn't a business spell.

If you have enchantresses online, both Sterling Grove and Karmic Justice are useful, although Karmic Justice is one mana more.

If you don't have enchantresses online, Sterling Grove gets you an Enchantress or other business spell next turn, Karmic Justice just protects things not worth protecting.

There's no other enchantment that does both those things.

re: Multani's Presence - It's not what it seems. I played it for a long time, and Choke is just much, much better. For one thing, it's a terrible topdeck.

Similarly, if I was super worried about discard, I'd run Leyline of Sanctity first, as it also gives us an out vs. combo. Next in Line would be Spreading Algae.

[mrmaul558]

Finally had a little success with this build of mine. Monthly Legacy at my LGS drew 15 people this weekend, and I went 3-1 and got 3rd! Prizes were to T4, so I was pretty happy.

Round 1: Dredge
This matchup went well for me; Game 1, he T1 LED'd into Faithless Looting. I was a bit scared, but he didn't really dredge into anything. In a few more turns he had flipped and dredged all 4 of his Gravetrolls hitting 3 Ichorid, 2 Bridge from Below, and no Narcomebas. He spent a few turns Cabal Therapy'ing me but ultimately didn't get any pressure on in a reasonable amount of time which allowed me to stop his eventual zombies with Elephant Grass and secure the lock.
G2, he mull'd to 5 on the play, played a land and said draw go for 4 turns. When he finally discarded a Stinkweed Imp, I played the Bojuka Bog in my board to remove it and give me one more turn. :P The next turn he cast Faithless Looting discarding Dread Return and Ichorid or something, at which point I played Wheel of Sun and Moon targeting him, at which point he scooped.

1-0

Round 2: UW Miracles
I always love playing Countertop Matchups; Usually the deck can't 1-for-1 you out of the game since eventually, all your spells either cantrip or mulldrifter, so you just drown their counterspells in card advantage. The only time it can be rough is if they get early Counter/Top lock and can secure it with a Jace. That can be hard to fight through, but Replenish can often grab those matches too.

Long story short, this match went exactly as I've described; Game 1 he never played a Counterbalance, so he just couldn't counter everything he needed to. Game 2 I ended up playing City of Solitude (which got countered) with 2 choke in hand. Needless to say, he scooped that match pretty quickly.

2-0

Round 3: ANT Storm Combo
At this point there were 3 2-0's; Me, Storm and RUG Delver. Unfortunately, RUG Delver got paired down (and eventually took first), so I had to face an awful matchup. Game 1 he stormed me out; It sucked though, since he was going to "go off" turn 2, but was forced to redo the math when I played T2 choke. He was going to fizzle, but I stopped him. :P Then he Orim's Chanted me the turn I was going to play the Runed Halo later in the game, followed by storm kill the next turn. :/ Game 2 he kept a 2 Duress hand and drew a ton of lands (did end up Emptying the Warrens for 6 goblins on T5 though...lol). Game 3 he has a reasonably slow start, I'm actually able to play a Choke for his one island and then Runed Halo on Tendrils (with another Runed Halo in hand). He decides "what the hell" and goes for it, since my board isn't ever going to get better for him. He ends up Grapeshotting me for 18. FML

2-1

Round 4: RUG Delver
I still insist that this matchup is favorable for us, and this particular match was no different. I'm a little fuzzy on the details, but G1 he wasn't able to kill me in time to lock down (I was at 5), although I did almost throw away the game when I drew a card too fast with Confinement in play (he had Lightning Bolt/Forked Bolt in hand...). Luckily, Forked Bolt is a sorcery. lol
Game 2 I was on the ropes a bit more, and made a few misplays but got there with O-ring on his early delver and then Sigil tokens.

3-1

This was only a 4-round tournament. I ended up placing third behind the RUG Delver I avoided in Round 3 (he want 4-0) and the storm deck that beat me in round three (3-1). Prizes were Savannah for 1st, Badlands for 2nd, Foil 9th Blood Moon for 3rd, Watery Grave for 4th. I was quite happy to get the Foil Blood Moon, as it goes straight into my SB. :)

[JanoschEausH]

Good job on your finish mrmaul558!!! Did you use your most recently posted list?

I will be attending a tournament next Saturday (18 Players max) and a really big one on 30th of September. Im still struggling with my final list. Right now i'm playing cthulhu_dude23s list with maybe 2 cards difference. I think +1 Oblivion Ring and -1 City of Solitude main.

My Metagame is full of Miracle, Maverick, Esperblade and Show-n-Tell. Especially the last one gives me headaches. I'm pretty sure i will move Humility to the maindeck somehow, but i badly want to squeeze 1x Crop Rotation and 1x E-Tutor into the maindeck also.
I have pondered with the idea to touch the Sterling Groves, and maybe cut them to 2 or 3. It feels like an act of sacrilege though... What would you suggest?

[Imaginasian]

Gainsay (5th Place)
Legacy MOCS #4213076 on 08/18/2012
Download a .dek file for use in Magic Online

Main Deck

60 cards

7 Forest
2 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Savannah
2 Tropical Island
3 Windswept Heath
19 lands

4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Cloud of Faeries
2 Eternal Witness
10 creatures

2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Chrome Mox
4 Elephant Grass
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Seal of Primordium
4 Seal of Removal
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
2 Words of Wind
31 other spells


Sideboard
1 Carpet of Flowers
2 Chill
1 Compost
1 Energy Field
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Harmonic Sliver
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Krosan Grip
1 Lignify
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Tormod's Crypt
15 sideboard cards

Any point in discussing this version of Enchantress? It took 5th in the MOCS at Gencon this year. Sure Words of Wind takes the opponent out of the game faster but the lack of a decent win con leaves me skeptical.

[mrmaul558]

It took 5th in the MOCS at Gencon this year.

I don't know everything about MODO, but I do know that MODO legacy =/= Paper legacy in both metagame and card availability.

[mrmaul558]

Good job on your finish mrmaul558!!! Did you use your most recently posted list?

I will be attending a tournament next Saturday (18 Players max) and a really big one on 30th of September. Im still struggling with my final list. Right now i'm playing cthulhu_dude23s list with maybe 2 cards difference. I think +1 Oblivion Ring and -1 City of Solitude main.

My Metagame is full of Miracle, Maverick, Esperblade and Show-n-Tell. Especially the last one gives me headaches. I'm pretty sure i will move Humility to the maindeck somehow, but i badly want to squeeze 1x Crop Rotation and 1x E-Tutor into the maindeck also.
I have pondered with the idea to touch the Sterling Groves, and maybe cut them to 2 or 3. It feels like an act of sacrilege though... What would you suggest?

Yes, I ran that MD exactly, with just a change or two to the SB, but mostly the same there as well.

I like MD choke way more than MD City of Solitude. I don't think Enlightened Tutor is necessary anymore - I suggest you playtest my list against those matchups (except maybe Show and Tell) and see how you like it. It should give you good results against both of those blue decks, and especially against Maverick.

[Freggle]

@ Spatula - Thanks for the comments it has been noted. I equate Karmic Justice to a Thalia type card. You never really know what you are stopping, but you hope/figure it's doing something. Like it makes Wasteland a bad move unless they really need to be 2 for 1'ed for a particular land. I also like that it stacks well. ...why Spreading Algae over Compost? ...I read your comments a few posts back as well as all the comments on the gatherer. The Gatherer comments state that many people play around it, and I know from black decks I build that they are usually land heavy to trigger Bloodghast and not be too hurt by Smallpox or Pox. Wouldn't drawing out of your woes be better?

@Mrmaul558 - Glad your having some success. As for cutting Sterling Groves in all honesty it comes down to a few things. Do you expect to see a good deal of targeted removal? ...What do you plan to do with the new slots, and how does that effect the overall deck consistency? I started computing comprehensive statistics on things until grad school started again to try and figure out what a statistically "perfect" enchantress shell would be. Tough project (for me at least)

@Imaginasian - That is some old school tech (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CYRMysAkOo). I think we could discuss it (there is no harm in that) but I have nothing to add at the moment outside of too few Energy Fields :smile: and Cloud of Fairies is pretty great in :u: enchantress.

[ForlornEgoist]

@ Imaginasian: I agree with Freggle. Thats is, indeed, quite old school tech. Next thing you know, the person who Top 8's finally w/Enchantress will be running Earthcraft + Squirrel Nest. :tongue: 'Course, this combo is exactly why Earthcraft is banned in Legacy. ^_^'

All-in-all, a rather interesting list. Whats conveinant is that the pilot doesn't sacrifice the combo MU with this list (since Seal of Removal fulfills the O-Ring slot). The list looks as though it is geared towards handling early game aggression better than G/W lists. I'm hesitant that the list only runs the 1 WoWi as a "wincon," since decks do SB in Surgical Extraction or Memoricide (Nic Fit) against us, but then again I'm sure they tend to have more relevant targets in their mind, especially since Blue Enchantress is a rarity.

Its been years since I've played UG Enchantress so I can't really comment as to its effectiveness, however, I'm glad to see it posted a good result.

On a random note, I wonder how a list built to answer creature decks would fair in this meta? I'm not going to post a list since this is just a thought-of-the-moment, but perhaps running something like:

4 Elephant Grass
4 Porphyry Nodes
4 Drop of Honey
1 Humility
1-2 Solitary Confinement

I know, the price tag on Honey is beyond reasonable and this idea seems subpar, however a part of my wants to try it out. Seems like it'd be absolutely trolling to play. >:D

Forlorn Egoist

[lordofthepit]

Drew Levin wrote an article with a blurb about this deck here: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/24728-Creativity-Isnt-Dead.html

I think this deck is much more streamlined in that you don't run any win conditions that "don't do anything" until you're ready to combo out. However, you lose a lot of great silver bullets that are available in white, as well as the obvious Solitary Confinement and Sterling Grove, which are amazing.

That being said, this deck has a much easier time "going off" sooner. You don't need to land Solitary Confinement with enough Enchantress effects on board and Enchantments in hand. Just looking at the list, there are some neat mini-combos:
- Cloud of Faeries are a super ritual effect with your Wild Growth effects
- Words of Wind neatly allows you to replay Cloud of Faeries and Wild Growth to get more use out of them on a single turn. (Bouncing a Carpet of Flowers on your first main phase = sick!)
- Words of Wind, Seal of Removal, and Eternal Witness form a nice loop that allows you to "capsize lock" your opponent.
- Words of Wind allows you to reset your Elephant Grass while reducing your opponent's board presence.
- Eternal Witness is awesome utility and allows you to run 4 GSZ to get more virtual Enchantress effects early without being "dead" late.

That being said, I don't regularly play Enchantress (and certainly not G/u), so who knows how it actually runs, especially if your opponent keeps you off Words of Wind.

[ESG]

Porphyry Nodes and Drop of Honey kill your enchantresses, so it seems inadvisable. Shroud creatures can't preserve them anymore. That used to work years ago. If it still worked, I would play these cards in a heartbeat.

[Imaginasian]

Thanks guys for the input. I had no idea how that G/U list won and just went on a hunch that it killed the opponent with Cloud of Faeries or EWitness. I'm tempted to run it at SCG Denver this weekend but am apprehensive about it and will probably just run ginger enchantress.

The only thing I can notate about the G/U list is that it has the possibility of going more "infinite" than the G/W version, but that's already been stated by Freggle, Forlorn Egotist and ESG.

[Vacrix]

The GU list looks like it would be sick with Attunements if there's a way to fit them in. With a single Enchantress effect, its a cycle 4 for 4. Every other Enchantress effect you have in play turns it into card advantage. This would allow the deck to get rid of excess land while drawing cards. If you discard something you need, you can GSZ/Eternal Witness to get it back. Also, returning Attunement is part of the cost so if you don't need to use it again, then after you draw 3 + (Enchantress effects), you can discard it in the 4.


I understand the purpose of the Mox/Trap miser slots (ie. Witness/GSZ recursion of Trap as well as Mox being replayed without Imprint) but I wonder if Attunements could replace them.

[Rad_Fishy]

Can somebody explain the purpose of the lone Mox? What would be the purpose to play it without Imprinting something? Just something you can replay for free if you are going off with Words of Wind and don't want to replay an enchantment?

[Imaginasian]

So a report from SCG Denver. Didn't run so hot but here's a short-ish tourney report.

Round 1 - vs Goblins 0-0-1

We get pairings for the 1st round and I look on the list and see I'm paired against one of the guys I rode down with who was borrowing Goblins from another guy we rode down with so off to a "great" start. I keep a fairly decent hand and run with it. I get beat down by 2 Lackey's for 4 turns with him putting nothing into play during this. Yeah we are so awesome at playing Legacy. I eventually draw a Grove and crack it to get Moat. Turns out when you're at 1 and they have Sharpshooter you're still dead. Game 2 and I'm on the play again and our last game took 30 minutes so I have to kill him in at least 10 minutes not too hard right? I lock him out with 7 minutes remaining and we are onto game 3. We end up going to turns and on turn 5 I literally drew 40 cards and didn't find either WoWar or Sigil, they were the bottom 2 cards of my remaining deck. So it's a 1-1-0 draw.

Round 2 - vs Hive Mind 0-1-1

So I sit down and we shuffle up. I ask my opponent how his last round went. Obviously not very good but at least we are in the draw bracket right? He wins the die roll and goes underground sea into ponder. I figure he is either on Reanimator, TES or ANT. Next turn he plays Volcanic Island and I'm thinking I'm super dead to Storm. He plays Grim Monolith and now the jig is up. Hive Mind...so I wasn't too far off from being super dead. He plays Hive Mind the following turn and pacts me to death. Game 2 I don't have much other than Choke to side in. He goes S&T into Hive Mind. I figure I'm not dead yet. I go for Enchantress and I get Pact of Negation and well that was all she wrote.

Round 3 - vs Deadguy Ale

After not being very happy for losing to Hive Mind I shuffle up and figure maybe I can make a comeback? I see it's the Deadguy Ale player from the Legacy challenge yesterday so I know he's on Deadguy Ale. I end up locking him fairly quickly with multiple groves, enchantress's, and a confinement in play. He didn't make me kill him he just scooped them up and we went to game 2. I have Leyline in my opening hand since I didn't want to get Inquisitioned and Thoughtseized into oblivion. He reads Leyline and he slumps in his chair indicating his hand is full of discard. We spend a few turns with me durdling and finding no enchantress effects. He vindicates my leyline and hits me with multiple discard effects and drops batterskull along with elsepth. Game 3 I have leyline opening hand again but my keep is stronger. We end up going to turns and on turn 5 I kill him with WoWar for exact damage. Whew...

Round 4 - vs Maverick 1-2-1

This is one of the only girls playing in the room and she had the same record as I did. We shuffle up and have some light conversation. Takes me 2 seconds to realize she's on maverick. Unfortunately for her I draw multiple Enchantress's and groves and I lock her on turn 5 or something like that. She realizes there is no way to kill me so she scoops. Game 2 I end up dying to a knight or something equipped with jitte and Feast and Famine and I scoop them up. Game 3 She plays turn 2 Thalia and I hold her off for a few turns with grass and I played a Presence along with a confinement. This is where it gets awful because all of a sudden there is an unknown card on the table. The girl starts panicking and tearing up because she was DQ'ed from a tournament for the same reason. This happens when she tries to hardcast her Feast and Famine for 3 with Thalia on board. We get the unknown card issue resolved and she gets a warning for that. Now back to the Feast and Famine for 3 mana issue. She asks the judge since it's on the stack can she tap her Mystic to put it into play rather than hardcast it. Judge says sure and well...with her 2 extra mana up she equips and hits me and it's downhill from there. The girl the following round had another issue with Thalia and a lotus petal which I heard took 20 minutes and 4 judges to resolve. She was a sloppy Maverick player and I think she was doing things on purpose to gain an advantage but I digress.

Round 5 - vs Esper Blade 1-3-1

There is no way I can lose to Esper Blade. I beat one of the local guys approximately 90% of the time. I keep a pretty good hand. He ends up vindicating my growthed forest and I never draw land over the course of 5 turns. The guy is confused thinking I'm some kind of maverick deck. Game 2 I lock him with choke since he fetched for only island based duals. He scoops shortly after. Game 3 I had the guy all I had to do was crack my grove for confinement and it would have been GG. I didn't because I thought he had surgical like every Esperblade player and I didn't want to get 2 for 1'ed. He jumps a soldier token he made with elspeth after equipping batterskull and I'm dead. I talk to him after the match and says I should have fetched for confinement. I told him I thought he had surgical and ends up telling me he didn't even have it in his board.

I end up dropping after this and eventually play against Adrian Sullivan in some for fun games and that pretty much ends my report.

A few things I want to note:

1. The meta is too fast for us right now. Combo is on the rise again and the fair decks are disappearing again or it seems that the fair decks are disappearing.

2. I think the UG version is better ATM because of it's ability to go infinite with mana and draw. Once you resolve 2 enchantress effects, 3 growths, WoWind and have a Cloud of Faeries you just win. Needs more testing and more tweaking though which I'm going to be experimenting with over the next few weeks.

3. I did get some compliments about my deck since I'm currently pimping it out. Most of the players around me smirked or had absolutely no idea what I was playing. Oh and worst idea ever was buying Korean Elephant Grass's. I had to explain what that card did all day long and the fact it's in Korean only made it worse.

[mrmaul558]

So a report from SCG Denver. Didn't run so hot but here's a short-ish tourney report.

<snip>

A few things I want to note:

1. The meta is too fast for us right now. Combo is on the rise again and the fair decks are disappearing again or it seems that the fair decks are disappearing.

2. I think the UG version is better ATM because of it's ability to go infinite with mana and draw. Once you resolve 2 enchantress effects, 3 growths, WoWind and have a Cloud of Faeries you just win. Needs more testing and more tweaking though which I'm going to be experimenting with over the next few weeks.

3. I did get some compliments about my deck since I'm currently pimping it out. Most of the players around me smirked or had absolutely no idea what I was playing. Oh and worst idea ever was buying Korean Elephant Grass's. I had to explain what that card did all day long and the fact it's in Korean only made it worse.

If you don't want those Korean Elephant Grass's, I'll take them off your hands. :P

Also, what list did you run? I don't think my list would've had a problem winning most of those matches, but you did seem to get fairly unlucky (both wincons in bottom two cards of deck. You just forgot to Sterling Grove Tutor for one. It's ok though, I did the same thing at my SCG event)

[cthulhu_dude23]

So a report from SCG Denver. Didn't run so hot but here's a short-ish tourney report.

Round 1 - vs Goblins 0-0-1

We get pairings for the 1st round and I look on the list and see I'm paired against one of the guys I rode down with who was borrowing Goblins from another guy we rode down with so off to a "great" start. I keep a fairly decent hand and run with it. I get beat down by 2 Lackey's for 4 turns with him putting nothing into play during this. Yeah we are so awesome at playing Legacy. I eventually draw a Grove and crack it to get Moat. Turns out when you're at 1 and they have Sharpshooter you're still dead. Game 2 and I'm on the play again and our last game took 30 minutes so I have to kill him in at least 10 minutes not too hard right? I lock him out with 7 minutes remaining and we are onto game 3. We end up going to turns and on turn 5 I literally drew 40 cards and didn't find either WoWar or Sigil, they were the bottom 2 cards of my remaining deck. So it's a 1-1-0 draw.

Round 2 - vs Hive Mind 0-1-1

So I sit down and we shuffle up. I ask my opponent how his last round went. Obviously not very good but at least we are in the draw bracket right? He wins the die roll and goes underground sea into ponder. I figure he is either on Reanimator, TES or ANT. Next turn he plays Volcanic Island and I'm thinking I'm super dead to Storm. He plays Grim Monolith and now the jig is up. Hive Mind...so I wasn't too far off from being super dead. He plays Hive Mind the following turn and pacts me to death. Game 2 I don't have much other than Choke to side in. He goes S&T into Hive Mind. I figure I'm not dead yet. I go for Enchantress and I get Pact of Negation and well that was all she wrote.

Round 3 - vs Deadguy Ale

After not being very happy for losing to Hive Mind I shuffle up and figure maybe I can make a comeback? I see it's the Deadguy Ale player from the Legacy challenge yesterday so I know he's on Deadguy Ale. I end up locking him fairly quickly with multiple groves, enchantress's, and a confinement in play. He didn't make me kill him he just scooped them up and we went to game 2. I have Leyline in my opening hand since I didn't want to get Inquisitioned and Thoughtseized into oblivion. He reads Leyline and he slumps in his chair indicating his hand is full of discard. We spend a few turns with me durdling and finding no enchantress effects. He vindicates my leyline and hits me with multiple discard effects and drops batterskull along with elsepth. Game 3 I have leyline opening hand again but my keep is stronger. We end up going to turns and on turn 5 I kill him with WoWar for exact damage. Whew...

Round 4 - vs Maverick 1-2-1

This is one of the only girls playing in the room and she had the same record as I did. We shuffle up and have some light conversation. Takes me 2 seconds to realize she's on maverick. Unfortunately for her I draw multiple Enchantress's and groves and I lock her on turn 5 or something like that. She realizes there is no way to kill me so she scoops. Game 2 I end up dying to a knight or something equipped with jitte and Feast and Famine and I scoop them up. Game 3 She plays turn 2 Thalia and I hold her off for a few turns with grass and I played a Presence along with a confinement. This is where it gets awful because all of a sudden there is an unknown card on the table. The girl starts panicking and tearing up because she was DQ'ed from a tournament for the same reason. This happens when she tries to hardcast her Feast and Famine for 3 with Thalia on board. We get the unknown card issue resolved and she gets a warning for that. Now back to the Feast and Famine for 3 mana issue. She asks the judge since it's on the stack can she tap her Mystic to put it into play rather than hardcast it. Judge says sure and well...with her 2 extra mana up she equips and hits me and it's downhill from there. The girl the following round had another issue with Thalia and a lotus petal which I heard took 20 minutes and 4 judges to resolve. She was a sloppy Maverick player and I think she was doing things on purpose to gain an advantage but I digress.

Round 5 - vs Esper Blade 1-3-1

There is no way I can lose to Esper Blade. I beat one of the local guys approximately 90% of the time. I keep a pretty good hand. He ends up vindicating my growthed forest and I never draw land over the course of 5 turns. The guy is confused thinking I'm some kind of maverick deck. Game 2 I lock him with choke since he fetched for only island based duals. He scoops shortly after. Game 3 I had the guy all I had to do was crack my grove for confinement and it would have been GG. I didn't because I thought he had surgical like every Esperblade player and I didn't want to get 2 for 1'ed. He jumps a soldier token he made with elspeth after equipping batterskull and I'm dead. I talk to him after the match and says I should have fetched for confinement. I told him I thought he had surgical and ends up telling me he didn't even have it in his board.

I end up dropping after this and eventually play against Adrian Sullivan in some for fun games and that pretty much ends my report.

A few things I want to note:

1. The meta is too fast for us right now. Combo is on the rise again and the fair decks are disappearing again or it seems that the fair decks are disappearing.

2. I think the UG version is better ATM because of it's ability to go infinite with mana and draw. Once you resolve 2 enchantress effects, 3 growths, WoWind and have a Cloud of Faeries you just win. Needs more testing and more tweaking though which I'm going to be experimenting with over the next few weeks.

3. I did get some compliments about my deck since I'm currently pimping it out. Most of the players around me smirked or had absolutely no idea what I was playing. Oh and worst idea ever was buying Korean Elephant Grass's. I had to explain what that card did all day long and the fact it's in Korean only made it worse.

Live and learn, right? The thing you have encountered with your grasses is EXACTLY why i havent made gotten korean versions of stuff that cant be foiled. Everything in my deck that can be foil is (had one guy joke with me that it takes a certain type of sadist to love a deck like this enough to foil it lol). Everytime I do an open pretty much all of my cards get read, so it just isnt worth it to have each opponent not believe that sanctum actually does tap for a million, grass is that good, etc.

Yeah combo has always been pretty rough, but we have a great matchup against decks that prey on combo. Fish, tempo thresh, etc. So its a gamble, but this deck hasnt been tier 1 since the days of gobbos being king and when creatures were pretty bad for the most part. And as such it just depends on what you run into out there. I still love the rogue factor of the deck that catches soooo many people off guard, and that should never be discounted (especially against players that dont do much legacy and have zero clue as to what we are playing or even the players that know it, but arent familiar with the ins and outs of the deck), but yes there are some pretty bad matchups out there for us.

[Imaginasian]

I love my Korean Elephant Grasses. Even if I had the English copies of Grass I still would have spent all day explaining what it does. I'll post my list when I have some time. The worst thing about this is that this has been my best SCG Open. I've played Thopter Top and Maverick in the other two that I've attended and been disappointed getting paired against combo MU's that are virtually impossible to win. This time around at least I got to play against some fair-ish decks.

Easily the best thing of the weekend was my buddy playing Austin Yost on camera Round 3. But that's for the Ascension thread.

[JanoschEausH]

Could you bring him to post his decklist there? I'm playing the deck, too.

[Imaginasian]

Could you bring him to post his decklist there? I'm playing the deck, too.

http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=48994

Hopefully I'm not violating any forum rules but that's my buddy's deck list.

The list I ran for SCG Denver was the following:

7 Forest
2 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
2 Arid Mesa
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Serra's Sanctum
2 Savannah
1 Taiga
1 Karakas

4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Sterling Grove
3 Solitary Confinement
1 Words of War
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 Runed Halo
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
3 Elephant Grass
1 Moat
1 Raking Canopy
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Replenish
2 Mirri's Guile
2 Green Sun's Zenith

Sideboard:

1 Karmic Justice
1 Humility
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
2 Ground Seal
1 Stony Silence
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Choke

[mrmaul558]

That list is quite close to mine; I'm not sure I like Horizon Canopy over another basic. How often is the card draw relevant? I tried it once, and hated the life loss.

I honestly thing Humility >>> Moat in this metagame right now; In what situations do you want Moat over Humility? And do you think that that outweighs the benefits of Humility (Great against RUG Delver, unbeatable against Maverick, Great in Sneaky Show/Griselbrand)

I don't think 2x Mirri's Guile is enough to actually make an impact in your draws; I suggest you cut a Replenish for the third.

Raking Canopy? Main deck? Why?

[Imaginasian]

That list is quite close to mine; I'm not sure I like Horizon Canopy over another basic. How often is the card draw relevant? I tried it once, and hated the life loss.

I honestly thing Humility >>> Moat in this metagame right now; In what situations do you want Moat over Humility? And do you think that that outweighs the benefits of Humility (Great against RUG Delver, unbeatable against Maverick, Great in Sneaky Show/Griselbrand)

I don't think 2x Mirri's Guile is enough to actually make an impact in your draws; I suggest you cut a Replenish for the third.

Raking Canopy? Main deck? Why?

The Horizon Canopy is there just to dig deeper honestly. Believe it or not there have been times when I was going off and then drew 3 land and had the canopy to dig 1 card deeper and get me there. The life loss can matter at times and I've thought about cutting it.

I actually got my list from Paul Lynch and was discussing this with him over the past couple of weeks. Moat just destroys tribal and pretty much locks RUG Delver and Maverick out of attacking us. I do understand that Humility is just as good in those MU's especially against Sneak Attack, but I asked the same question and well Humility shuts off half our engine first game and well that's bad at times.

Paul's list actually had 3 Mirri's Guile but I didn't want the 3rd. He cut an Arid Mesa for the 3rd Guile. I don't have much to elaborate on except that I maybe would want the 4th Elephant Grass in that slot instead of the land or another Guile.

The 1 Raking Canopy MD seems odd and I also asked Paul about this. When we have Moat down against RUG Delver it leaves them with only Delvers to attack us with. Raking Canopy kills them obviously when they attack which essentially shuts down all means of attacking us. Plus since the UW Miracles deck is picking up in popularity it shuts down their angels from attacking us. There were also other instances where it was useful...shuts down Lingering Souls tokens from attacking us.

[Ertai87]

Hey guys! Long-time Enchantress player, first-time Enchantress poster. I have a question for you guys:

I was thinking of playing Andrew Cuneo (Gainsay)'s list from Legacy MOCS (http://www.wizards.com/magic/digital/magiconlinetourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/4213076), but something occurred to me: Can that deck ever actually beat a Force of Will if played against a competent player? It seems to me like if they have 4 Force of Wills (or, equivalently, Spell Pierces, Counterspells, Countertop with 3-drops, etc) for your 2 Words and your 2 Ewits, you just can't ever actually win the game.

I'm assuming Cuneo didn't Top 8 the MOCS without playing against a good Force of Will player, so I'm assuming I'm missing something. What am I missing? If I'm not actually missing anything, can the deck be tweaked to dodge or fix this issue? I'd like to shoehorn an Emrakul or something into the deck, just in case, if possible, but I'm not sure if I'm overthinking it.