[Deck] Solitaire (Enchantress)

[Julian23]

Spell Pierce becomes invalidated quickly thanks to several Carpet of Flowers and 8 Wild Growth. Even with Counterspell and Force of Will the opponent will likely be able to only use 2 counters which most likely won't be enough. If they don't hit Enchantress Effects (they should) you're free to easily draw 1/2 your deck while generating mana with Cloud of Faeries and Seal of Removal. Hardcasting Mindbreak Trap also helps a little / can hit they're third counterspell for free.

After boarding, they also got to deal with GSZ for Gaddock and Jace 2.0. Counterbalance can be an issue if it comes online soon enough AND has a 3 floating on top. At this point you can still dodge it with GSZ for Harmonic Sliver.

[Imaginasian]

The other thing about Andrew Cuneo's list fromt he MOCS is the eternal witness MD. Even if they counter say your WoWind, just regrowth it back. I'm tempted to play this in my local meta but everyone plays 4 surgical SB.

My friend and I were also discussing in the UG version could we play a helix pinnacle as an alternate win con? Not saying that getting there with Cloud of Faeries isn't the biggest slap in the face but shouldn't we have a backup plan since we can generate nearly infinite mana?

[Ertai87]

@Julian: Thanks for the info. About that "they should counter the Enchantress effects", though, is that actually true? Against "normal" Enchantress, you're right, but against Cuneo's list if they just counter the WoWinds and the ways to regrowth it (8 total in the deck, as opposed to 12 Enchantresses, including GSZ in both counts) I don't see how the deck can win. If the plan is "pray they don't draw 4 pieces of countermagic", that's a plan I can accept. Not sure I like it, but I can accept it. I suppose when you count GSZ as a WoWind it makes the math look nicer, though.

@Imaginasian: There are 4 total WoWind + Regrowths (E-Wits, in this case). Helix Pinnacle seems sweet. Not sure if good, but definitely sweet.

[ForlornEgoist]

@ Julian: I saw that you changed the first Cardinal Rule. What, doesn't having a meta infested with the Earthcraft + Squirrel Nest combo seem legit? How fun would that be, having Enchantress be in every meta AND Tier 1? I know, 'tis silly. Still, how messed up would the meta be if it ever does get unbanned? :laugh:

On a separate note, I'm curious as to a currently untested "Cheat," for Emrakul in our deck: Hunting Grounds. Its a reasonable investment at only GW, the "condition," for its trigger is rarely an issue for our deck, its only reliant on them "casting," a spell, meaning it still triggers after Split-Second from Kgrip, plus it makes Living Wish variants of Enchantress slightly more viable. I'm not ready to sleeve it into my deck for tourney playtesting just yet, but of all the options our deck has run thus far for Emrakul cheats, this has to be the one of which I'm most fond.

Similarly, you could even test Oath of Druids as a cheat, although this one seems rather subpar by comparison and requires you adapt your build more heavily than Grounds. Off the top of my head, probably something like 1-4 Oath with 3-4 ETutor, 3-4 Grove, 2-4 GSZ, 4 Presence, 1 Argothian, and 2-4 Emrakul to support it. Like I said, this is a much heftier investment into the cheat, but its a possible option. :rolleyes:

I myself am not overly fond of Emrakul or cheat strategies. In fact, the only time I've ever particularly used him in my builds are those instances when Painter-Stone combos were prevalent in the metas. Regardless, I know some Enchantress players like him, so its always condusive to a deck developing experience to help develop strategies, even if I don't subscribe to them. ^_^

In regards to the blue build, I'm definitely considering take a step back into theorycrafting blue once again. Back when I was first getting into Enchantress several years ago the Blue variant was one I had considered as an option. Of course, my strategy at the time was rather awkward as I was much less experienced a player, and essentially only developed it as far as Cloud of Faeries, Words of Wind, Seal of Removal, and In the Eyes of Chaos.

No real major ideas to add to the thread atm, these are just thoughts I had as I rummaged through old deck notes and whathaveyou.

ForlornEgoist

[Odie]

Hey all,

On topic for the UG version; what about taking out some of those one-ofs and adding in Force of Will? Thinking it could help shore up the combo (belcher, ANT, S&T, etc.) MUs?

Anyone ever use them before or are they just card disadvantage?

[JanoschEausH]

Similarly, you could even test Oath of Druids as a cheat, although this one seems rather subpar by comparison and requires you adapt your build more heavily than Grounds. Off the top of my head, probably something like 1-4 Oath with 3-4 ETutor, 3-4 Grove, 2-4 GSZ, 4 Presence, 1 Argothian, and 2-4 Emrakul to support it. Like I said, this is a much heftier investment into the cheat, but its a possible option. :rolleyes:


I don't know if i missed something, but as far as i know, Oath of Druids is banned, isn't it?

[ForlornEgoist]

@ Odie:

We neither want nor have the means to support FoW. To begin with, the card disadvantage is killer. Combo decks can easily play around 1-2 counterspells. Actual Ux control decks can justify FoW as they run multiple types of counters, so for them FoW is merely a supplement. For us its a card that eats 4 slots, has little utility against other MU, and ultimately is a shot in the dark for drawing into (as all our CA & tutors are enchantment-based). Against those decks you're better off running Leyline supported by the utility card of said strategy (Solitary, Karmic, GY hate, etc.).

@ Janosch:

Yeah, thanks for catching that. It is, in fact, banned in Legacy. I just saw it in a junk pile, knew I had seen it in Vintage decks, and thought, "huh... why isn't this played?" I pretty much never look at the banned list as the decks I build are rarely if ever actually affected by cards on said list (directly, anyway).

Forlorn Egoist

[Odie]

Hey all, New poster/old viewer here.

I'm looking to head to the Cincinnati SCG Legacy event coming in October and would like to get some opinions on a couple of enchantress variations that I'm looking to play. (I copped out last year and went into the M12 draft opens -one word: terrible). I'm not letting this one get by though.

I'd like to get some thoughts of what is good/bad in each deck I have below and between the two which you'd recommend playing. I'll also give a little insight on some of the 'non-standard' cards that I have listed and why I believe they would be valid. They both have a WoWi base with the 1st similar to Andrew Cuneo's deck and the 2nd more of my stretch from the general G/W builds.

U/G Enchantress

Creatures

4 Argothian Enchantress

4 Cloud of Faeries

2 Eternal Witness

Enchantments

4 Enchantress's Presence

4 Elephant Grass

4 Seal of Removal

4 Utopia Sprawl

4 Wild Growth

2 Words of Wind

2 Carpet of Flowers

Instants

4 Force of Will

Sorceries

3 Green Sun's Zenith

Land

4 Misty Rainforest

3 Windswept Heath

3 Tropical Island

7 Forest

2 Island

Sideboard

3 Wheel of Sun and Moon

3 Energy Field

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Seal of Primordium

2 Mind Harness

2 Mindbreak Trap

2 Back to Basics

-----------------------------------

The changes that I've adopted into the main deck from Andrew C's deck is removal of the one-of's (Chrome Mox, Seal of Primordium, Mindbreak Trap) and one GSZ for 4 FoWs. With combo decks being a big bad wolf of this deck I figured that'd help where we could potentially stop a T1 (Charbelcher) through T3 kill (ANT, S&T, etc.) to give us more time for this combo to go off. Sometimes it’s just that little bit of disruption that can make or break a game is my thinking. Not sure, since you'd be removing an engine piece to pay for it, but that's why you generally have multiples of them. I'll tell you one thing...it definitely surprises your opponent the first time you counter something.

For the sideboard I switched it up quite a bit adding in the protection of Energy Field with a side of Wheel of Sun and Moon for recurring protection and the dredge MU. Once you’re set, you just bounce the Energy Field and combo away. I've also put in a couple of Mind Harnesses to help out with some of the RUG and Maverick MUs, since I would think they'd be pretty prevalent, but we may already be pretty square with them and it may just make their removal which wouldn't be that good against us normally more effective, not sure.... I also added in a couple Back to Basics. With all of the non-basics out there and this deck not running many at all that would be affecting by it (you can just return the land to your hand as well) I figure it could be a big hoser for various decks.

The main concern for me from the /W versions is removing Solitary Confinement, Sterling Groves, and the Leylines in the board, but with this version being faster it may not be so much of an issue.

-----------------------------------

U/G/W Enchantress

Creatures

4 Argothian Enchantress

Enchantments

4 Enchantress's Presence

3 Exploration

3 Elephant Grass

4 Wild Growth

1 Mirri's Guile

3 Solitary Confinement

3 Energy Field

1 Sigil of the Empty Throne

2 Seal of Removal

2 Words of Wind

3 Sterling Grove

Instants

4 Force of Will

1 Enlightened Tutor

Sorceries

2 Replenish

Land

7 Forest

1 Plains

2 Island

1 Savannah

1 Tundra

1 Tropical Island

2 Serra's Sanctum

3 Windswept Heath

1 Flooded Strand

1 Misty Rainforest

Sideboard

2 Mind Harness

2 Back to Basics

3 Leyline of Sanctity

3 Wheel of Sun and Moon

2 Oblivion Ring

1 Stifle

2 Spell Pierce

----------------------------------

I had this before I saw the U/G version (or remembered it). This deck developed from my initial G/W version (like most others here), because I've always enjoyed the WoWi condition instead of the WoW (it's a lot better against the mirror as well and I didn't play the red splash anyhow). I feel this gives a lot in versatility and inevitability, but of course, you get hit more with the inconsistent mana and getting Wastelanded. It focuses more on the old Exploration/Wild Growth/WoWi combination to bounce multiple permanents. Most everything is already explainable or I went over it in the above deck (yea, the stifle is a hold over...I really do enjoy that card).

I appreciate any constructive comments and good fortune to all drawing many cards. Thanks.

@Fornlorn Eogoist - Thanks for the feedback. After I posted I figured to go ahead and put up what I have. I figured that would be the main killer for FoW.

[JanoschEausH]

I dont like the blue version personally. It is really hard to play and can screw up so easy. It plays more out like a combo deck. I would only recommend you to play this at a big tournament if you have really mastered it.

[mrmaul558]

Took my list to Jupiter Games again, switched a Nevermore into the SB for the Wheel of Sun and Moon.

Started 3-0-1 (90 Players, 7 rounds of swiss). Beat Red Deck Wins, RUG Delver, and Goblins, tied up with Junk (It was a Humility game. He got Batterskull in play and I missed the win a few times, so we tied.)

I lost to Maverick Round 5 (Which I think is at least 80% in our favor, I think I just maybe didn't mulligan as aggressively enough.) Round 6 was Nic-Fit Scapeshifter. I mis-SB'd a little, but Pernicious Deed got me. Round 7 was also Nic-Fit, which Pernicious Deed also beat me in.

I know that I at least need to SB Karmic Justice now, but I'm thinking that I might actually maindeck it over Choke now, since its also quite good against Maverick (and I never want to lose to that deck again.) Runed Halo might also be the MD cut - Thoughts?

[PunkRocker1134]

I took the a budget version of the blue version to a local event yesterday, going 2-2. I beat B/W Stoneblade and Fish, losing to storm twice. I did manage to take a game from both storm players though, and didn't really feel out of the match at all. I really like the blue version for a couple of reasons:

1) You can just randomly win. There were a few times yesterday where I just would top deck a words of wind, or random enchantment in certain situations and then just bounce their board.

2) You don't have to sustain confinement. Having to use an early confinement is usually risky, and it can be a pain to sustain without multiple enchantments. Along this line, Cloud of faeries really helps get an earlier bounce lock, and in general it speeds the deck up.

I have to say though the blue version is worlds harder to play, but I think it has a lot more potential, especially against combo decks. I run both Flusterstorm and mind break trap out of the board, which really helps against combo. Against sneak and show, seal of removal and words lock, plus flusterstorm out of the board is super helpful. Plus, against fair decks the Words of Wind lock is just as good as confinement lock.

[JanoschEausH]

Took my list to Jupiter Games again, switched a Nevermore into the SB for the Wheel of Sun and Moon.

Started 3-0-1 (90 Players, 7 rounds of swiss). Beat Red Deck Wins, RUG Delver, and Goblins, tied up with Junk (It was a Humility game. He got Batterskull in play and I missed the win a few times, so we tied.)

I lost to Maverick Round 5 (Which I think is at least 80% in our favor, I think I just maybe didn't mulligan as aggressively enough.) Round 6 was Nic-Fit Scapeshifter. I mis-SB'd a little, but Pernicious Deed got me. Round 7 was also Nic-Fit, which Pernicious Deed also beat me in.

I know that I at least need to SB Karmic Justice now, but I'm thinking that I might actually maindeck it over Choke now, since its also quite good against Maverick (and I never want to lose to that deck again.) Runed Halo might also be the MD cut - Thoughts?

I think maindeck Choke + Runed Halo are definitely flexspots. It really depends on your meta, but if you have that much Nic Fit i would play maindeck Karmic Justice instantly.

[JanoschEausH]

OMG Guys. We get so many lovely cards in RTR.

Check this out:

Sphere of Safety - 4W
Enchantment

Creatures can't attack you or a planeswalker you control unless their controller pays for each of those creatures, where X is the number of enchantments you control.

(This means flying creatures , too -> Emmi, Delver...)


Next:

Rest in Peace - 1W
Enchantment

When Rest in Peace enters the battlefield, exile all cards from all graveyards.
If a card or toke would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, exile it instead.

This means our grave too, but is easy to cast and golden against dredge or reanimator.

Source: http://mtgsalvation.com/return-to-ravnica-spoiler.html

[GoldenCid]

OMG Guys. We get so many lovely cards in RTR.

Check this out:

Sphere of Safety - 4W
Enchantment

Creatures can't attack you or a planeswalker you control unless their controller pays for each of those creatures, where X is the number of enchantments you control.

(This means flying creatures , too -> Emmi, Delver...)


Next:

Rest in Peace - 1W
Enchantment

When Rest in Peace enters the battlefield, exile all cards from all graveyards.
If a card or toke would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, exile it instead.

This means our grave too, but is easy to cast and golden against dredge or reanimator.

Source: http://mtgsalvation.com/return-to-ravnica-spoiler.html

Rest in peace is decent but sphere im not sure....we have grass, moat, confinement....for a lower cost...but its true that stops emrakul....

[Claymore]

I actually thought this might be good for you all...

Mana Bloom XG

Enchantment
Mana Bloom enters the battlefield with X charge counters on it.
Remove a charge counter from Mana Bloom: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool. Activate this ability only once each turn.
At the beginning of your upkeep, if Mana Bloom has no charge counters on it, return it to its owner's hand.

Reusable cantrip every single turn in the mid/late game, minor early game accel for turn 3.

[JanoschEausH]

Rest in peace is decent but sphere im not sure....we have grass, moat, confinement....for a lower cost...

The Problem with those is, that Moat dies to Emmi + Delver, Grass dies to itself and is ineffective when they have alot mana, confinement relies on alot of enchantress effects.
Sphere costs 1 more (than moat), but is easy to cast and has no weakness like the others.

[ForlornEgoist]

@ Sphere of Safety:
Albeit at 4W its a hefty investment, however you need to look at all of our other lock conditions and note that they do nothing to prevent creatures from actually attacking. Solitary Confinement only prevents damage, it doesn't prevent Annihilator. Moat only prevents non-flying creatures from attacking, meaning Delver/Emrakul/Griselbrand/majority of Reanimator creatures/Angel + Spirit tokens can still inflict damage. Elephant Grass only forces them to pay an attacking cost which is happily paid when they are fighting with a cheated creature or a pumped up Ooze/KotR. Yes Sphere costs 4W, but it can reasonably be cast by turn 3-4 if necessary at which point just based on the fact that we should have at least 3-4 enchantments out it will already be better than Grass.

@ Rest in Peace:
I am actually giddy to be receiving this new gem. Albeit we do already have Wheel of Sun and Moon/Ground Seal + the various Artifact GY hate for ETutor, however being able to nix both players GY means this is definitly a more viable selection for the UG Enchantress. Its also important to consider that, unlike Wheel/Ground, it doesn't recycle their spells back into their deck or give them access to flashback/Snapcaster/etc. targets like Ground does once its removed (Nic Fit can still use Therapy under a Seal -.-').

@ Mana Bloom:
If the card had read "Remove a charge counter from MB: Add one Mana of any color to your mana pool." and left it at that I might've considered the card viable, although I do know this would lead to some combo abuses. The problem I forsee isn't that the card in-of itself is unuseable, its just not optimal in comparison to other choices. Against non-blue decks we're essentially free to spam our Growth/Sprawls to our hearts content. This alone is more than enough to fix our mana as well as ramp. Against blue decks a resolved Carpet of Flowers can easily gurantee us an extra 3-5 mana each turn. Not to mention Carpet can be cast turn one without much difficulty (as a majority of blue players prefer countering what they consider to be "relevant," targets like Enchantress/City/Choke) and it requires no extra future investment.
I'm strickly just theorycrafting that this card won't see much tourney play beyond initial playtesting. I could be wrong, however, I can't see any major ways we can abuse this card.

I'm definitely enjoying the Enchantress love in RtR. This is definitely going to be one of my more favorite sets. Not just for Enchantress, but for the widespread love its giving Legacy. I'm already all googly eyes for Abrupt Decay. :D

Forlorn Egoist

[JanoschEausH]

It just got mentioned in another forum that "Rest in Peace" and Helm of Obedience makes a really nice win Condition, now usable for White and possibly Enchantress?

[GoldenCid]

It just got mentioned in another forum that "Rest in Peace" and Helm of Obedience makes a really nice win Condition, now usable for White and possibly Enchantress?

Completely unnecesary...

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Sphere of Safety certainly gives a viable alternative to Moat for folks that want the defensive bomb, but don't have 300 bucks to drop. It might actually be the superior card, regardless of budget. Testing will tell. I like it better, particularly stacking with Elephant Grass.

Rest in Peace and Soul Tithe look like solid SB material.

Mana Bloom is too slow to be of use to us. Mana loss when you play it, mana gain of only one each following turn. Being able to replay it would be useful if it didn't fit so awkwardly into the curve.

Detention Sphere gives a pretty solid reason to splash blue. I might actually try a four color variant with this thing.

[cthulhu_dude23]

^agreed spatula on all points. I wish the new ghostly prison cost 1 mana less though.

Detention sphere is great because its an o-ring potentially better than a 1 for 1, which was always the huge drawback with the card.

Im super stoked for rest in piece, there is zero reason to play wheel in the traditional lists anymore. The fact that it sticks "late game" (aka after turn 2 on play or draw) relevance against dredge or reanimator on a hoser effect is huge. And lets face it, if you are able to cast (and get value out of) your replenish against either of these decks, youve probably already won. Im even probably going to take out ground seal too, granted I like that against many new lists of reanimator (that forgo exhume) it hard counters them and draws a card, but testing will tell.

Its sad though, I wanted to build breakfast as a pet deck and sort of abandoned that notion after seeing Mr. Savannah Lions on Crack, but now Im definitely not building it.

Just an aside, but is it just me or does all this grave hate seem really forced on wotc's part?

[Freggle]

Wow! I have been out of MTG for a few weeks dealing with a school / work crunch, but Sphere of Safety looks exciting.

This gives credence to stacking the deck with all the mana enchants (more enchantments to pay for and faster ramp out), and meddles well with fliers.

As many have been saying ...this needs to be tested.

[Shawon]

Rest in Peace and Soul Tithe look like solid SB material.

What matchups would Soul Tithe come in against?

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Probably everything that isn't combo or RUG Delver.

[Shawon]

Probably everything that isn't combo or RUG Delver.

Ok, that's what I was expecting. I was just making sure you weren't referring to bringing in Soul Tithe against Show and Tell.

[JanoschEausH]

I think Soul Tithe is just inferior to Oblivion Ring. The thing is, that you leave your opponent to decide wether he want to keep his permanent or not. Permanents with higher CMC than 3 are not that common in Legacy, so your opponent will be able to pay for his permanent if its so important.

[GoldenCid]

Guys..considering clique, delver, coralhelm, emrakul....does moat worth nowadays?

[cthulhu_dude23]

Guys..considering clique, delver, coralhelm, emrakul....does moat worth nowadays?

This is the basis for a huge debate between enchantress players. Im am still pro moat because in the matchups where it is awesome, its amazing. I personally consider it more of a mainboarded silver bullet card like city of solitude than the whole shebang like it was 3+years ago when there were zero flyers being played. And like any silver bullet card, there are matchups you board it out against.

Then again I'm also a HUGE proponent for mainboard choke, and it has matchups where it is downright useless aside from being a drawspell. I dont really have a problem with moat being considered in the same capacity. And there are few matchups where moat is completely dead anyway, so it usually offers at least some value if you draw into it game 1.

[anonymos]

I personally consider it more of a mainboarded silver bullet card like city of solitude than the whole shebang like it was 3+years ago when there were zero flyers being played. And like any silver bullet card, there are matchups you board it out against.

I haven't been playing much lately, but I'm thinking the same thing about Moat. I'd actually consider moving it to the sideboard if it weren't for a group (3-5) that consistently play Maverick.

[Sevryn]

Hello, this is my long-time deck. I haven't really been paying attention to MTG for a few months, what is this omniscience bullshit going around?

Anyway, I was looking through recent sets and the enchantments they hold; what do you guys think of Abundant Growth? At first glance, it seems very strong; it cantrips for one mana and helps address color issues, it doesn't however accelerate anything, and it is competing for the same CMC as the deck's acceleration.

What do you guys think?


EDIT: I don't know/remember how to link to cards!

[Freggle]

I haven't been playing much lately, but I'm thinking the same thing about Moat. I'd actually consider moving it to the sideboard if it weren't for a group (3-5) that consistently play Maverick.

@Moat / Sphere of Saftey
As stated this is in high debate, but I'm strongly in the camp of Moat is at best SB card in this meta. ...that is easy for me to say since I didn't throw down over $200 for one though.

Sphere of Safety is an entirely different card since it prevents attacks regardless of creature abilities. It has the ability to solve the Emrakul anihillator issue and the flying hole. It also is without question extremely synergistic.

It's drawback is the cost & that the deck needs to be rolling to make it work well. It still falls to the same enchantress flaws hand disruption and counter magic, so it's not going to swing poor MU's too wildly.

The card should be tested, and built around to maximize it's potential power.

@ Rest in peace This is a good card. It does lessen the impact of Replenish so that could be your swap card. It also gives rise to Energy Field a card that in my opinion is severely underplayed.

In an Energy Field build the only trouble is that :w::1: is much harder than :wg::wg: to cast.

However, it should be noted that Energy Field / Rest in Peace is FAR STONGER than Energy Field / Wheel of sun and Moon as it disrupts other good stuff against us.

-Snapcaster
-High tide re-shuffles
-past in flames
-academy ruins
...

When I find time I will be testing a Rest in Peace / Energy Field build.

@Abundant Growth

The card is decent, it is a matter of the slot it takes, and as you said it does not ramp. If / when Enchantress shies more-and-more away from straight G/W it may gain more value.

[Sevryn]

@Abundant Growth

The card is decent, it is a matter of the slot it takes, and as you said it does not ramp. If / when Enchantress shies more-and-more away from straight G/W it may gain more value.

I'm working on a build that will run 3-4 bloodmoon. I'll try the card out and see if it fits, but the deck is so cramped as it is. Thanks for the response!

[Just me]

@Moat / Sphere of Saftey

@ Rest in peace This is a good card. It does lessen the impact of Replenish so that could be your swap card. It also gives rise to Energy Field a card that in my opinion is severely underplayed.

In an Energy Field build the only trouble is that :w::1: is much harder than :wg::wg: to cast.

However, it should be noted that Energy Field / Rest in Peace is FAR STONGER than Energy Field / Wheel of sun and Moon as it disrupts other good stuff against us.

-Snapcaster
-High tide re-shuffles
-past in flames
-academy ruins
...

When I find time I will be testing a Rest in Peace / Energy Field build.



THIS!
I initially would be tempted to actually run 2 or 3 Enlighted Tutors to work with and add a single Helm of Obedience as well to gain a wincondition outside regular damage. It might even be enough of a wincondition all by itself. Leaving more room for utility with the Enlighted Tutors.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

I think Soul Tithe is just inferior to Oblivion Ring. The thing is, that you leave your opponent to decide wether he want to keep his permanent or not. Permanents with higher CMC than 3 are not that common in Legacy, so your opponent will be able to pay for his permanent if its so important.

Most of the time, paying the upkeep will be enough of a road block that the cards amount to the same thing. Obvious exception being Delver. So the fact that it's one mana less and plays better with Replenish seems to make it better in a lot of relevant match-ups.

[Freggle]

THIS!
I initially would be tempted to actually run 2 or 3 Enlighted Tutors to work with and add a single Helm of Obedience as well to gain a wincondition outside regular damage. It might even be enough of a wincondition all by itself. Leaving more room for utility with the Enlighted Tutors.

Great minds think alike I have created a developmental thread for it here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24692-Developmental-Enchantress-with-Rest-In-Peace-Helm&p=674608#post674608).

[Freggle]

For all the play data hounds I took down a local 4 man today (super poor turnout) with the following Enchantress list:


Creatures (6)
4 Argothian Enchantress
2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Sorcery (1)
1 Green Sun's Zenith

Artifact (1)
1 Pithing Needle

Enchantments (32)
Draw
4 Enchantress's Presence

Card Quality
2 Mirri's Guile

Ramp
4 Utopia Sprawl
3 Wild Growth

Stall
4 Elephant Grass
4 Energy Field
3 Solitary Confinement
3 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Sterling Grove


Attrition
1 Karmic Justice

Wins
2 Defense of the Heart
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne

Mana (19)
1 Island
7 Forest
2 Karakas
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Serra's Sanctum
2 Forbidden Orchard
1 Savannah

Sideboard:
2 Sterling Grove
1 Pithing Needle
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Sterling Grove
4 Carpet of Flowers
2 Choke

2-0 RU Delver

MVP Energy Field, post board Carpet of Flowers 2 concessions after e. field WoSaM lockouts (Sigil on the ready.)

1-2 Maverick

MVP's Pithing Needle, Energy Field won only 1 game with e. field / WoSaM.

Questionable keep G1, Too much heat G3 I would have locked him out the turn after I died with Needle on Pridemage already down.

2-0 Goblins

MVP Energy Field, Pithing Needle Defense G1, Lockout concession G2.

[GoldenCid]

Took 2nd place with my enchantress and a Sword of Fire and Ice Judge!!

Check it out!

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9178&iddeck=67101

Pairings:

Won to:

Mono Black (1-0)
BW Deadguy (2-0)
ANT (2-0)
Maverick (swiss and top 4 semifinal, 1-0 and 2-0)

ID: Goblins

Lost to:

Stone blade (final, 0-2)

[TheSleeper]

I wanted to discuss some choices for those splashing Blue. If there is a better place to discuss it, can someone link me? I don't however think the deck is that different, or its a natural evolution of the original anyways with enough pieces intact.

Has anyone tried Jace as a win con? Once you have built up your prison of choice (solitary, energy field), it seems pretty good.

1) It doesn't deal damage, getting around protection/high life
2) It's useful before you need it to kill. Once online it will be better in function than Mirri's Guile (obviously I know it's not an enchantment).

The only cons I can see is that it could be hit with direct damage like Lightning Bolt. Is that the main reason some play Emrakul over him?

My original lure to splash blue was for energy field and seal of removal. The latter mainly for the SNT and Reanimator decks. Its usefulness has dropped off a little now since people SNT Omni into play, and by casting Emrakul for free, Seal really doesn't help much. Still it's a solid tempo card when you want to run Blue for Energy Field etc anyways.

I'm also keen to test forgoing Replenish in favour of RIP/Energy Field. Would prefer to keep the win con Words of War or Sigil instead of Helm though.

[Freggle]

I wanted to discuss some choices for those splashing Blue. If there is a better place to discuss it, can someone link me? I don't however think the deck is that different, or its a natural evolution of the original anyways with enough pieces intact.

Has anyone tried Jace as a win con? Once you have built up your prison of choice (solitary, energy field), it seems pretty good.

1) It doesn't deal damage, getting around protection/high life
2) It's useful before you need it to kill. Once online it will be better in function than Mirri's Guile (obviously I know it's not an enchantment).

The only cons I can see is that it could be hit with direct damage like Lightning Bolt. Is that the main reason some play Emrakul over him?

My original lure to splash blue was for energy field and seal of removal. The latter mainly for the SNT and Reanimator decks. Its usefulness has dropped off a little now since people SNT Omni into play, and by casting Emrakul for free, Seal really doesn't help much. Still it's a solid tempo card when you want to run Blue for Energy Field etc anyways.

I'm also keen to test forgoing Replenish in favour of RIP/Energy Field. Would prefer to keep the win con Words of War or Sigil instead of Helm, as opposed to Freggel's experimental list.

The only cards I have found in the prison style deck that is worth the pick-up in :u: is energy field. ...but it is MOST CERTAINLY worth it.

I have updated my experimental list here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24692-Developmental-Enchantress-with-Rest-In-Peace-Helm&p=676433#post676433) to reflect changes I have made in testing.

RIP / Helm is all that, and would be far better than a (1) off Jace (which I did test) as it wins on the spot.

Or ring is positioned very well right now, and Seal of Removal is old news and should be cut.

[lambert101]

Getting a friend into legacy and he loves this deck idea. Here is a basic list I need help with. Not worrying about the sideboard for now.

4 Argothian Enchantress
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

1 Sphere of Safety
4 Elephant Grass
4 Enchantress's Presence
3 Mirri's Guile
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Replenish
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
3 Solitary Confinement
4 Sterling Grove
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
1 Words of War

6 Forest
1 Karakas
2 Plains
3 Savannah
2 Serra's Sanctum
1 Taiga
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath

I am starting to like Sphere of Safety over Moat. Also it cheaper.

[Freggle]

Getting a friend into legacy and he loves this deck idea. Here is a basic list I need help with. Not worrying about the sideboard for now.

4 Argothian Enchantress
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

1 Sphere of Safety
4 Elephant Grass
4 Enchantress's Presence
3 Mirri's Guile
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Replenish
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
3 Solitary Confinement
4 Sterling Grove
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
1 Words of War

6 Forest
1 Karakas
2 Plains
3 Savannah
2 Serra's Sanctum
1 Taiga
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath

I am starting to like Sphere of Safety over Moat. Also it cheaper.


Honestly, that is a pretty stock list. Are there any match ups your looking for help on?

Otherwise it should work for your friend pretty well. Hope they like it.

[lambert101]

Honestly, that is a pretty stock list. Are there any match ups your looking for help on?

Otherwise it should work for your friend pretty well. Hope they like it.

Our meta is RUG, NIC FIt, Maverick, Goblins, and a splash of combo and rock type decks.

Is 21 lands too many?

[guelahpapyrus]

Our meta is RUG, NIC FIt, Maverick, Goblins, and a splash of combo and rock type decks.

Is 21 lands too many?

20-21 is good. I'd go for 20 unless you're having issues.

And for that meta, you better pray that Nic Fit or Rock don't pull a Pernicious Deed/Engineered Explosives on you.

[JanoschEausH]

Our meta is RUG, NIC FIt, Maverick, Goblins, and a splash of combo and rock type decks.

Is 21 lands too many?

Your list looks pretty good. I would replace the Emrakul maindeck, but i guess thats my personal taste. Green Sun's Zenith and Enlightened Tutor are also pretty good in this deck, especially with 1-off Sphere of Safety.

I would address the sideboard towards your meta. You have a good matchup against RUG, Maverick and Goblins, for Combo i would suggest you play at least 4 Leyline of Sanctity. I would also add some graveyardhate (for example the new Rest in Peace or Surgical Extraction).
Be sure to play at least 1 Karmic Justice! In your meta i would consider playing one in the maindeck and one in the sideboard.

Regarding the lands question, i was always happy playing 20. I always played 21 when i had Horizon canopy in my 60. I would recommend to play 20 atm, because you get additional maindeck space.

[Freggle]

Our meta is RUG, NIC FIt, Maverick, Goblins, and a splash of combo and rock type decks.

Is 21 lands too many?

Lands are tricky things, I have run as little as 18 with little to no drawback, BUT that is risky. 20 should be plenty.

The card that would be really good in that 20-and 21st land slot in your meta would be Pithing Needle. I know it's not an enchantment, but it can shut off all of the following:

-Pridemage
-Deed
-wasteland
-RUG's Fetches
-Goblins Port* that is a big deal on mana enchanted lands.
-combo's ---? whatever

I have played 1 main and have not been sorry.

To echo JanoschEausH sidebaord help. He is right. Also, Rest In Peace is also good against Most combo, but board out your Replenish

[mike1987]

Gainsay (5th Place)
Legacy MOCS #4213076 on 08/18/2012
Download a .dek file for use in Magic Online

Main Deck

60 cards

7 Forest
2 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Savannah
2 Tropical Island
3 Windswept Heath
19 lands

4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Cloud of Faeries
2 Eternal Witness
10 creatures

2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Chrome Mox
4 Elephant Grass
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Seal of Primordium
4 Seal of Removal
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
2 Words of Wind
31 other spells


Sideboard
1 Carpet of Flowers
2 Chill
1 Compost
1 Energy Field
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Harmonic Sliver
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Krosan Grip
1 Lignify
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Tormod's Crypt
15 sideboard cards

Any point in discussing this version of Enchantress? It took 5th in the MOCS at Gencon this year. Sure Words of Wind takes the opponent out of the game faster but the lack of a decent win con leaves me skeptical.


Can anyone enlighten me with regards to the interactions or combo of this deck because it just seem to elude me. Pardon my noobness. :frown:

[Darkenslight]

Can anyone enlighten me with regards to the interactions or combo of this deck because it just seem to elude me. Pardon my noobness. :frown:

Words of Wind + Argothian Enchantress=X+:1:: return target enchantment you control and a Permanent your opponents control to their owner's hands. You essentially lock the board with Words of Wind, and as that skips the next draw...you rarely deck out whilst Faeries beat. After all, you can't play Magic without lands on the board, right*?

*Well, for the most part

[Pltnmngl]

What did you guys think about Mana Bloom? Too costly?

[Jenni]

What did you guys think about Mana Bloom? Too costly?

The "only once per turn" bit turned me off of it. Spend X+G mana, so that next X turns I can get 1 extra mana just doesn't seem that great when I can spend G on Utopia Sprawl and get two mana in a combination of Green and one other colour from a single land every turn for the rest of the game (assuming the forest survives). Wild Growth is less flexible (only adds G) but it's still two mana per turn for the rest of the game off of that one land, with a one-time investment of G.
It is nice that it's a reusable enchantment I guess, but I don't really run out of enchantments to cast once the deck gets going anyway so it's not a real issue.

[mike1987]

I have always been wanting to build an enchantress deck but I am not sure if the traditional list (green, white) is better or the C/U list that gainsay played. Is there a hybrid of both at the moment?

[Imaginasian]

I have always been wanting to build an enchantress deck but I am not sure if the traditional list (green, white) is better or the C/U list that gainsay played. Is there a hybrid of both at the moment?

It really comes down to play style preference. I have the cards to play either. Normally I run the GW Prison style traditional list but I've shifted to the UG List that Andrew Cuneo aka Gainsay built on MTGO. I haven't experimented in building a hybrid of both...although I'm sure it's possible. Although the UG list doesn't really need any of the traditional cards because it's really more of a combo deck rather than a prison style deck. I'm sure the others can expand on that more than I can...

[Jenni]

It really comes down to play style preference. I have the cards to play either. Normally I run the GW Prison style traditional list but I've shifted to the UG List that Andrew Cuneo aka Gainsay built on MTGO. I haven't experimented in building a hybrid of both...although I'm sure it's possible. Although the UG list doesn't really need any of the traditional cards because it's really more of a combo deck rather than a prison style deck. I'm sure the others can expand on that more than I can...

I haven't really played the U version much but I've seen it in action a few times.
It seems like a hybrid would be possible. the big issue I see is that, as far as their goals are concerned, they both try to win the game in different ways. If you're going to bounce all the opponent's permanents, then you don't need the traditional Solitary Confinement lock.

As for which is better, I'm not sure. they both have their weaknesses.
The U version seems a bit harder to play since it's more combo-styled, and it looks like it may be weak to some of the permanent-light decks, like burn.

The GW version, though, has trouble with early-game disruption, and pridemages and the like can pose a serious problem if you don't have a grove or two in play. It's also easier to mill yourself out in the GW version if you aren't careful, since the U one has words of wind to skip draws if needed. Oddly, graveyard hate can be an issue for GW as well, not a game-winner, but turning off replenish and making sure you can't get a shuffle-back off emrakul and crew is a potential problem.

[theillest]

I haven't really played the U version much but I've seen it in action a few times.
It seems like a hybrid would be possible. the big issue I see is that, as far as their goals are concerned, they both try to win the game in different ways. If you're going to bounce all the opponent's permanents, then you don't need the traditional Solitary Confinement lock.

As for which is better, I'm not sure. they both have their weaknesses.
The U version seems a bit harder to play since it's more combo-styled, and it looks like it may be weak to some of the permanent-light decks, like burn.

The GW version, though, has trouble with early-game disruption, and pridemages and the like can pose a serious problem if you don't have a grove or two in play. It's also easier to mill yourself out in the GW version if you aren't careful, since the U one has words of wind to skip draws if needed. Oddly, graveyard hate can be an issue for GW as well, not a game-winner, but turning off replenish and making sure you can't get a shuffle-back off emrakul and crew is a potential problem.

I don't think a hybrid is viable. But throw a list up, if you have one. Wind in place of War in G/W/X prison seems like a bad sub. U/g combo is, at the moment, the better version.

[Jenni]

I don't think a hybrid is viable. But throw a list up, if you have one. Wind in place of War in G/W/X prison seems like a bad sub. U/g combo is, at the moment, the better version.

I don't have a list. Like I said, I have a problem with the different goals of the deck and at least at the moment I have not thought of a good way combine the two strategies into anything coherent.
That said, a G/U/w variant that mixes elements of both could be viable. Say using the combo from U version rather than the traditional lock-out, but with Sigil to finish the game in the next turns attack step off an angel swarm, rather than picking away at the life total with small fey and witnesses. Adding the white also gives the potential for Oblivion rings to deal with show and tell if they go off before you, and as a general utility spell otherwise, and opens Serra's Sanctum for the ridiculous amount of mana it can generate for whatever good that may do (since cloud of faeries and some utopia sprawls handles the infinite mana job fairly well already anyway).

Edit: Just a rough idea of what I meant as a hybrid. Not great, just a modification of a UG list mentioned earlier in this thread modified for a white splash, untested - etc.

20 Land


4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Cloud of Faeries
2 Eternal Witness


2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Chrome Mox
4 Elephant Grass
4 Enchantress's Presence
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Seal of Removal
4 Utopia Sprawl
2 Words of Wind
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Sigil of the Empty throne
1 Karmic Justice

Basically, Oblivion ring for show and tell, general utility. Enlightened Tutors, to dig up any missing pieces really. Sigil to provide a faster finish. Justice as tutor target to handle the occasional destroy target thing you own. Really, there is still the issue of an anti-synergy - the white wants to be grindy while the rest of the deck really wants to just combo-off and win.
edit2: accidentally had 61 cards on the example list.

[theillest]

I don't have a list. Like I said, I have a problem with the different goals of the deck and at least at the moment I have not thought of a good way combine the two strategies into anything coherent.
That said, a G/U/w variant that mixes elements of both could be viable. Say using the combo from U version rather than the traditional lock-out, but with Sigil to finish the game in the next turns attack step off an angel swarm, rather than picking away at the life total with small fey and witnesses. Adding the white also gives the potential for Oblivion rings to deal with show and tell if they go off before you, and as a general utility spell otherwise, and opens Serra's Sanctum for the ridiculous amount of mana it can generate for whatever good that may do (since cloud of faeries and some utopia sprawls handles the infinite mana job fairly well already anyway).

Edit: Just a rough idea of what I meant as a hybrid. Not great, just a modification of a UG list mentioned earlier in this thread modified for a white splash, untested - etc.

20 Land


4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Cloud of Faeries
2 Eternal Witness


2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Chrome Mox
4 Elephant Grass
4 Enchantress's Presence
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Seal of Removal
4 Utopia Sprawl
2 Words of Wind
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Sigil of the Empty throne
1 Karmic Justice

Basically, Oblivion ring for show and tell, general utility. Enlightened Tutors, to dig up any missing pieces really. Sigil to provide a faster finish. Justice as tutor target to handle the occasional destroy target thing you own. Really, there is still the issue of an anti-synergy - the white wants to be grindy while the rest of the deck really wants to just combo-off and win.
edit2: accidentally had 61 cards on the example list.

Thanks for the list. Once you have the lock, sigil seems like win more. Justice and O rings are SB cards, IMO. A wish package could take care of unforseen problems better than diluting the maindeck. I'd get silver bullets with that, if needed, instead of tutor. The loss of wild growth seems like a huge handicap. But keep at it, you might be able to forge something, I just don't see it yet.:wink:

[Jenni]

Thanks for the list. Once you have the lock, sigil seems like win more. Justice and O rings are SB cards, IMO. A wish package could take care of unforseen problems better than diluting the maindeck. I'd get silver bullets with that, if needed, instead of tutor. The loss of wild growth seems like a huge handicap. But keep at it, you might be able to forge something, I just don't see it yet.:wink:

To be honest, I'm not convinced a hybrid would be better. This was a proof of concept list, just to show that there is some utility to be gained adding white. Unfortunately, though, messing up the mana further doesn't seem to justify it, and if your opponent has no permanents anyway the added utility is mostly just "Win More". Even the Sigil is a "Win More" or rather a "Win faster" which could come up if you end up on the loosing side of the clock game. Someone who knows the UG version better than me may be able to make it work, though.

[waSP]

A hybrid is not going to work well at all. You just lower the consistency of both plans.

You can fit the Words of Wind engine into the regular shell without much trouble.

(18)
4 Forest
3 Windswept Heath
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Serra's Sanctum

(10)
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
2 Chrome Mox

(11)
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
3 Green Sun's Zenith

(3)
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Words of Wind

(8)
4 Elephant Grass
2 Solitary Confinement
1 Moat
1 Humility

(4)
2 Sterling Grove
1 Solitary Cofinement
1 Ground Seal

(6)
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Replenish
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn or Sigil of the Empty Throne

[TraxDaMax]

Hey,

Chris Andersson got top 16 at SCG St Louis.
I know he's on this forum, as he helped out in the Elves! section a lot.
I'm basicly just really curious how his match ups were and would he change anything to the deck?
I followed a lot of his tactics in Elves! so am comfort to say he usually knows his shit :-)

[Chrandersen]

While this deck and UG Enchantress may share a draw engine, thats about it. They are completely different decks.


Seriously, someone make a forum for UG enchantress. Despite the lack of popularity, i feel its the best positioned combo deck in legacy right now, and deserves its own forum far more than most decks. Get to work on that and I'll post my opinions on the deck.

Lauren wants me to write an article on starcity about it, but I haaaaate writing, so we'll see if i can buckle down and spit out something worth reading.

[TraxDaMax]

While this deck and UG Enchantress may share a draw engine, thats about it. They are completely different decks.


Seriously, someone make a forum for UG enchantress. Despite the lack of popularity, i feel its the best positioned combo deck in legacy right now, and deserves its own forum far more than most decks. Get to work on that and I'll post my opinions on the deck.

Lauren wants me to write an article on starcity about it, but I haaaaate writing, so we'll see if i can buckle down and spit out something worth reading.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25035-U-G-Enchantress

Someone was ahead of me ;)

[forestfold]

I've been screwing around with a Bant list splashing for Energy Field maindeck and a sideboard card or two, and it's been working out fairly well. Granted, i've been playing only in the local 9~12 person proxy tournament and goldfishing, but using two trops hasn't been too bad. We don't have a ton of wasteland decks, which might be the reason. I was playing GWr for the longest time, so the difference in mana hasn't been a big deal to me at all. Current list ::

2x Savannah
1x Tropical Island
2x Plains
5x Forest
1x Island
1x Karakas
2x Serra's Sanctum
4x Windswept Heath

4x Argothian Enchantress

4x Enchantress's Presence
4x Sterling Grove
4x Wild Growth
4x Utopia Sprawl
3x Elephant Grass

2x Sigil of the Empty Throne
1x Sphere of Safety
1x Moat
1x Aura of Silence
3x Solitary Confinement
2x Oblivion Ring
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon
1x Runed Halo
2x Energy Field
2x Rest in Peace
1x Stony Silence
2x Mirri's Guile

----------------------

SB ::
3x Leyline of Sanctity
3x Mindbreak Trap
1x Karmic Justice
1x Nevermore
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon
1x Runed Halo
1x City of Solitude
1x Seal of Primordium
1x Elephant Grass
1x Mana Maze
1x Pithing Needle

This is what I have been playing around this. Sphere/blue splash have been primarily for testing purposes, and this week I think I am going to remove moat and see how it goes. I am blessed enough to own every card on this list and a great deal more that could go in, including the entire GU build and have been playing around with them both. So far, this hybrid list is doing quite well. Mainly I have been losing to the extremely fast clock of elves, which is why Mana Maze is in the sideboard. I also just figured out it would be brutal against high tide, which is an abysmal match up.
Sphere also seems to be a great budget option over moat. They both do different things, better against some decks and worse against others. Sphere does have virtue of not allowing huge flying monsters cheated into play to attack in many situations, but it does also cost 5 mana. If you can't find/afford a moat, it will do.
The other thing I have been playing around with is Ethereal Armor. I was thinking about it as a one-of against creatureless decks, because you could literally kill someone out of nowhere with an Argothian Enchantress. Enchanted Evening is even more fun. I did have an extremely janky version that ran Arenson's Aura/Enchanted Evening for a while (entirely for testing purposes, it is too damned expensive though) which is fun, but... bad. Probably more cute than anything, but I have trouble not playing hilarious things for these proxy tournaments.
The local meta here is heavy aggro/combo, not much control, which is why i have mindbreak traps in the sideboard, and a ton of anti-creature cards in the main. The Wheel of Sun and Moon does allow energy field to operate as intended to, which is a hedge against extraction/extirpate. I also have wheel'd myself once or twice when a game dragged out and I ran low on cards. Has anyone else tried a bant list out?

[ForlornEgoist]

@ forestfold:

Out of curiosity, what does your meta average? Which decks? You have some curious MD choices which are typically "SB," material (Stony Silence, Aura of Silence).

Am I to presume the Wheel of Sun and Moon are there as protection against cards like Surgical Extraction and Extirpate? If so, it might be a reasonable argument to say you're better off with 2 Wheels and 1 RiP. I fully understand the necessity of RiP as it destroys their GY manipulation while also benefiting Energy Field but Wheel is useful in that it recycles removed/countered Enchantments. Perhaps its just a preference, but given the right meta I might opt for all MD Wheels with 1-2 RiP in the SB. Stony Silence, however, really only has utility against certain decks which might be able to reasonably answer our deck or race us (Affinity, ANT, TES, or Belcher, for example). This would most likely be strongest in the SB. Pithing Needle would honestly be a better MD option. Aura of Silence, again, is really only useful in the Mirror MU.

Albeit I'm still in the testing phases of testing it, however, Sphere of Safety might not be necessarily useful for your meta. You mentioned elves (I presume "fast," can be synonymous with Combo) as a problem. Sphere MIGHT slow them down slightly, however Elves does have an infinite mana engine in their build so Sphere is less amazing. I'm not saying Sphere is bad since it can answer the other Tribal MU which are becoming more prevalent in metas, however, make sure you consider whether or not Sphere can't be replaced with something better.

Forlorn Egoist

[forestfold]

@ forestfold:

Out of curiosity, what does your meta average? Which decks? You have some curious MD choices which are typically "SB," material (Stony Silence, Aura of Silence).

My meta is pretty small, my local shop has a 10-proxy tournament every two weeks. There are 4 guys in the area that can actually build several decks, there are a few people with one to two decks possible in the proxy limit, and a few people with a lone deck(with or without proxies). All in all, there is a rotation of about 15 people who could show up with a deck/be borrowing a deck. Usually we have 10 to 12 people playing. This mix includes 4 dredge, 1 nicfit, 1 bugstill, 3 stoneblade(one with black splash), 2 goblins, 2 merfolk, 2 high tide, 1 MUD, 2 RUG, 2 show and tell, 1 reanimator, 1 TES, 1 maverick, 1 elves, & 1 cheerios (though the cheerios player is almost finished with elves, and the maverick player has turned into one of the show and tell guys, but I think he still has the stuff for maverick. Not included in this list is me (enchantress/maverick/elves/stoneblade/nic fit/ANT/TES/high tide/ and a few more decks i'd never pick up) and a guy who could literally build any deck, he's basically a shop without a shop. I usually play enchantress though, and the guy that can build anything rarely comes but brings RUG almost every time.


Am I to presume the Wheel of Sun and Moon are there as protection against cards like Surgical Extraction and Extirpate? If so, it might be a reasonable argument to say you're better off with 2 Wheels and 1 RiP. I fully understand the necessity of RiP as it destroys their GY manipulation while also benefiting Energy Field but Wheel is useful in that it recycles removed/countered Enchantments. Perhaps its just a preference, but given the right meta I might opt for all MD Wheels with 1-2 RiP in the SB. Stony Silence, however, really only has utility against certain decks which might be able to reasonably answer our deck or race us (Affinity, ANT, TES, or Belcher, for example). This would most likely be strongest in the SB. Pithing Needle would honestly be a better MD option. Aura of Silence, again, is really only useful in the Mirror MU.

Originally one main deck Wheel of Sun and Moon was kind of like training wheels/dredge hedge. When I was first learning the modern version of the deck about 2.5 years ago (I played auratog/rancor/bad enchantress way way way back) I kept screwing myself by drawing too many cards, so I put one wheel from the BS main, as kind of a fail safe. The amount of dredge I ran into made it seem like a good idea anyway(and boy is it brutal for them).
Stony Silence I added from the SB to the main right before GP Indianapolis because of the amount of Stoneblade I was seeing in SCG Open t8's, which I think turned out to be a pretty good idea. Sadly, I only played one Bantblade and no regular Stoneblade decks the whole tournament. I did play Affinity the day before in a grinder, G1M1 had SS in my hand by pure chance. It also won me a game against Imperial Stone GP day 1, a game against Bantblade, two games against Lands, and a game against ANT. I have been happy with it ever since. The splash damage from SS hits nearly every deck in the format, and it doesn't affect me at all. Bare minimum it draws me a card generally.
Aura of Silence is a holdover from Dragon Stompy for the most part. We have one guy who occasionally plays it, and chalice on 1 or chalice on 1 & 2 basically cripples us. It doesn't really need to be there, I think it was City of Solitude at one point. The double white is annoying, but it hasn't come up very much.


Albeit I'm still in the testing phases of testing it, however, Sphere of Safety might not be necessarily useful for your meta. You mentioned elves (I presume "fast," can be synonymous with Combo) as a problem. Sphere MIGHT slow them down slightly, however Elves does have an infinite mana engine in their build so Sphere is less amazing. I'm not saying Sphere is bad since it can answer the other Tribal MU which are becoming more prevalent in metas, however, make sure you consider whether or not Sphere can't be replaced with something better.

Forlorn Egoist

Sphere of Safety has mostly been an all-star against Show & Tell. The five matches i've played with sphere so far against it, it has stoned them 3 times. And it is a possibility to put in with Show and Tell besides O-Ring, which isn't bad I guess. Not nearly as good, but it could save you at some point. Mana Maze and Nevermore are my main weapons against Elves, Sphere just makes them jump through a few extra hoops to kill me. Anything that strains their mana seems good IMO, but I've only played about 12 games against elves. Obviously Moat is much better against them up until they play Emrakul. I am trying to track down a copy of In the Eye of Chaos which seems like more fun that City of Solitude.
Mana Maze is the best thing I've come up with (that I own) vs. elves, and also happens to be the best thing besides ItEoC/Rule of Law/Arcane Laboratory vs. High Tide, which are probably my worst two local match ups. Anyone have any thoughts for those?

[Loxmatii]

hello, friends

i play this list for several month. rather good results. may be it can help somebody. ask questions, if you want

Honest Day again, by Loxmatii
// Lands
2 Serra's Sanctum
2 Windswept Heath
2 Misty Rainforest
6 Forest
2 Plains
1 Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Karakas
1 Chrome Mox

// Creatures
4 Argothian Enchantress

// Spells
3 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
1 Exploration

4 Enchantress's Presence

1 Moat
1 Solitary Confinement
3 Elephant Grass
3 Energy Field
1 Web of Inertia

4 Sterling Grove
1 Karmic Justice
1 City of Solitude
3 Rest in Peace
1 Detention Sphere
2 Mirri's Guile
1 Aura of Silence

1 Helm of Obedience
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne

1 Enlightened Tutor


// Sideboard
SB: 1 Karmic Justice
SB: 1 City of Solitude
SB: 1 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Detention Sphere
SB: 1 Equipoise
SB: 1 Cursed Totem
SB: 1 Humility
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Mana Maze
SB: 1 Peacekeeper

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Took 25th at SCG: Baltimore yesterday with this list:

4x Argothian
4x Presence
4x Wild Growth
4x Utopia Sprawl
4x Elephant Grass
3x Solitary Confinement
3x Sterling Grove
3x Ground Seal
2x Replenish
2x Green Sun'z Zenith
2x Exploration
1x Words of War
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Sphere of Safety
1x Choke
1x Sylvan Library

2x Serra's Sanctum
3x Savannah
1x Taiga
4x Windswept Heath
1x Plains
9x Forest

SB:

1x Stony Silence
1x Rest in Peace
1x Nevermore
1x Choke
1x Lignify
1x Humility
1x Aura of Silence
1x Seal of Primordium
2x Kirtar's Desire
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Chameleon Colossus
1x Sigil of the Empty Throne
1x Suppression Field
1x Blood Moon

Some things:

Chameleon Colossus looks janky as hell, and there might be a better option, but I like bringing in a plan B game 2 when StP is gone. Something that takes advantage of all the mana Enchantress generates seems like the way to go.


Round 1: Sneak & Show

Game 1 I have to make a turn 2 call based on whether I think Volc -> Ponder means S&S or RUG. I guess RUG and make the slower play, and next turn he Show and Tells. I'm groggy as hell and stupidly put in a Solitary Confinement instead of a Sylvan Library. I get annihilated next turn and check the extra card I'd have seen with Sylvan Library; it's Oblivion Ring. Nice punt, jack ass.

I bring in Humility, Nevermore, Blood Moon and Choke. He goes turn 2 S&S and I don't have anything relevant to drop with it.

0-1 Not a promising start

Round 2: Goblins

Game 1 I keep a somewhat questionable hand because of Choke. Then I see Mountain -> Aether Vial. Ah well. If he'd had the Lackey start I'd have died, but I use double Sterling Groves to get Presences and find an Elephant Grass and then a Confinement.

I bring in Lignify, 2x Kirtar's Desire, and Suppression Field.

I keep a 2 lander and hope he doesn't have Port. It slows me down, but I get there anyway by Sprawling both lands so I can land a turn 3 Argothian.

1-1

Round 3: U/W Miracles

Game 1: I play a bunch of stuff, he counters it, I play a Replenish, game over.

I bring in Suppression Field, Stony Silence, Choke #2, Sigil, and Chameleon Colossus, and game 2 goes pretty much the same. Counter-top isn't super-effective against a bunch of 3 and 4 mana threats.

2-1

Round 4: U/W Miracles

Game 1 I just play around Terminus with slow-rolling Argothians, and land a critical Choke when he taps out for a hard-cast Terminus.

Same board plan. This one's pretty tight and he might have been able to get there with Clique when I stalled out on a Confinement but he misplayed slightly.

3-1

Round 5: U/W Miracles with Helm/RIP

Seriously, the third one in a row.

Same damn story. He gets out two Pithing Needles, a Nevermore and a Meddling Mage against me but I win anyway.

4-1

Round 6: High Tide

Well this is a nightmare. I look at the 3 matches to my left and right and wish I had been paired against any one of those decks instead.

Game 1 goes predictably, and I scoop when it's clear he won't fizzle.

I bring in Choke, Nevermore, Aura of Silence, Stony Silence, Seal of Primordium and Rest in Peace.

Game 2 I O. Ring a Candelabra, he misses his fourth land drop for 3 turns and I get a Choke out, then a Confinement and Grove.

Game 3 I believe he mulled to 6, and I drop a turn 2 Nevermore naming High Tide. Through some alignment of the stars I pretty much lock it up, then almost throw it away by worrying about time and brain farting into putting a Grove tutored card (Stony Silence) into my hand rather than on top of the library with Confinement in play. I get a warning.

5-1

Round 7: BUG Delver/Shaman (Alix Hatfield)

Game 1 I mull to 6 and he double Hymns.

I bring in Ooze, 2x Kirtar's Desire, Lignify.

Game 2 I had a decent start and then drew into half my lands.

5-2

Round 8: Esper Stoneblade

Game 1. I get torn apart by discard, then beat down with Snapcaster and Clique.

I bring in Colossus, Choke, Sigil, Seal of Primordium, Suppression Field and Aura of Silence

Game 2 He actually goes down pretty fast with a Thoughtseize, multiple fetches and Bitterblossom. And I land a Colossus that gets there all on his lonesome.

Game 3: It drags out pretty late, until I land a Sphere of Safety that clinches it.

6-2

Round 9: Zoo

I get paired against a friend that wants to split. I kind of wanted to top 16 but after he beat me game 1 and offered the split again, I give in.

6-2-1

MVPs: Sphere of Safety. Moat is yesterday's news.
Ground Seal: Deathrite, Snapcaster, Academy Ruins, Surgical Extraction. And it cycles, and makes Confinements much more likely to stick.
Choke: Obviously.
Sylvan Library: I know many talk about Guile's better synergy with Confinement, but Library's ability to draw extra cards came up on numerous occasions throughout the day.

[Loxmatii]

SpatulaOfTheAges , congratulations with a good result

can you answer several questions about your list:

1) why do you play 3 ground seal in main? this is a solution in methagem of bug decks and reanimators? against shaman and mage?

2) why dont you play moat?

3) why do you play 3 savannas and only 1 plains? but not 1 savannah, 2 plains and 1 forest? playing with 3 savannah you boost probability turn one savannah_utopia(if it is one lander)- wasteland

4) why dont you play tutor?

5) why dont you play sigil in main?

6) you have singltone side, but only 3 grove. Why?

7) you are playing lignify and seal in sb to solve canonist problem. But you can solve it only without mother. why dont you play equipoise or something like it?

8) why dont you play city? what is your plan against uw?

9) you are not plaing justice. and needle. what is your plan against deed?

10) are you sure, that ichorid cant beat you? why do you run only 2 gravehate?

11) tell me about kirtar. against what decks do you want to run it after sb?

12) will your change list after this tournament?

sry (= so many questions, because i didnt discuss enchtress for ages
what can you say about my list above?

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

SpatulaOfTheAges , congratulations with a good result

can you answer several questions about your list:

1) why do you play 3 ground seal in main? this is a solution in methagem of bug decks and reanimators? against shaman and mage?

The main reason is actually just to draw the extra card. This has been consistently relevant when trying to establish an early Solitary Confinement. The fact that it hoses a ton of relevant interactions is gravy.


2) why dont you play moat?

Moat is bad, frankly. It doesn't stop Clique, or Delver, or Emrakul, or Griselbrand, or Tombstalker, or Spirit or Angel tokens. And those are just the tier 1 cards it doesn't stop, there are many more random fliers in this format.

Sphere of Safety does what people WANT Moat to do. It shuts down all attackers. It does so much more reliably than Moat does.


3) why do you play 3 savannas and only 1 plains? but not 1 savannah, 2 plains and 1 forest? playing with 3 savannah you boost probability turn one savannah_utopia(if it is one lander)- wasteland

Because I need green mana. I'd rather have a Savannah + Utopia Sprawl hand and hope they don't have Wasteland than have a Plains + Utopia Sprawl hand and not even have an option about whether to mulligan.


4) why dont you play tutor?

It's card disadvantage and not an enchantment. It's good against combo, and that's about it.


5) why dont you play sigil in main?

I feel like it's a wasted slot. No one is going to try to counter your win conditions, and if they do try that, and let your enchantresses past, you can just Choke them out and then go for the win.


6) you have singltone side, but only 3 grove. Why?

Many of those function overlap; Aura of Silence/Suppression Field/Stony Silence/Seal of Primordium/Nevermore. It's rare that you'd only want to side in one of those.


7) you are playing lignify and seal in sb to solve canonist problem. But you can solve it only without mother. why dont you play equipoise or something like it?

I have a number of answers to Canonist. Seal/O. Ring/Aura of S./WoWar/Lignify. I'm also not that worried about either Death and Taxes or Maverick.


8) why dont you play city? what is your plan against uw?

City of Solitude is just worse than Choke or Blood Moon. Or another threat, like Chameleon Colossus. It's an awful top-deck, and does nothing to stop people running Esper or BUG, who will just make you discard your enchantress effects and not give a crap about City of Solitude, unless you topdeck like a champ.


9) you are not plaing justice. and needle. what is your plan against deed?

Suppression Field/Aura of Silence/Nevermore/Replenish/Choke.


10) are you sure, that ichorid cant beat you? why do you run only 2 gravehate?

Of course it can. But I still have E. Grass, RIP, GSZ into Ooze, and Ground Seal to stop Dread Return, plus Confinement and Sphere.


11) tell me about kirtar. against what decks do you want to run it after sb?

Delver and any aggro. The Delver matchup is very grindy and they want to play one threat and run up their removal against you. So having one mana removal for their threat and forcing them to find another is very helpful.


sry (= so many questions, because i didnt discuss enchtress for ages
what can you say about my list above?

I'm honestly not enamored of the lists I've seen trying to do tricks with Rest in Peace. Nothing you're gaining is worth losing Replenish, which is one of the reasons to play Enchantress in the first place.

[Loxmatii]

SpatulaOfTheAges, thank you for answers. it will take some time for me to think about them

btw, what do you think about enchantress build with 3-4 suppresion fields in main? and 2 chrome mox to play them on first turn. like a staxx version

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

It's something I've wanted to do so many times and not been able to convince myself about. I would love to hear about other people's results with the idea.

[Just me]

I played 3 Chrome Mox and 4 Suppression Field a while ago, when Survival + Vengevine was all the rage.
It worked great.

Not only did Supression Field work hard against these decks, the additional speed vs the field was great. Turn 1 Enchantress, turn 2, draw the card you exiled (keep parity in cardadantage anyway). The whole deck starts of a turn earlier, which is bonkers in Legacy. Also, when digging for a lock or wincon, it's an additional landdrop (more or less). You will end the turn with 7+ cards anyway, so dropping a Mox then for a little mana boost is sometimes exactly needed to be able to cast Confiment for example.

Sphere of Safety... I'll get me some.

[forestfold]

I'm honestly not enamored of the lists I've seen trying to do tricks with Rest in Peace. Nothing you're gaining is worth losing Replenish, which is one of the reasons to play Enchantress in the first place.

Honestly, try it before you knock it. I understand that you cannot play Replenish and RIP in the same deck, it just doesn't work. But nerfing all graveyards entirely is a ridiculous advantage when you're built to ignore all graveyards and your opponent is depending on theirs. I think this is important right now because so many decks are graveyard-centric, being set up to beat them before you start is a great place to be. I certainly don't think my list is perfect, but it does a lot of neat things.

Sadly, I can't afford to go to Denver, and driving it is a little more than I can handle right now. The full year announcement just went up though, and I will definitely be battle with an enchantress build unless we get completely screwed in Gatecrash or Dragon's Maze. Hopefully not though, because I love this deck, however it looks.

[ESG]

I think this is important right now because so many decks are graveyard-centric ...

I like RIP a lot as a card, but I don't agree with your statement. The card improves the Reanimator matchup and the Dredge matchup, and that's pretty much all. RUG's most dangerous weapon is Delver of Secrets. I have a fantastic record against RUG, but their Turn 1 Delver on the play is their best chance to win, and it's very strong. I can think of only maybe one or two games I've ever lost to RUG creatures that weren't Delver, so I don't see RIP as necessary there. There are no other major decks I can think of that I would call graveyard-centric. There are a few fringe decks, but I don't care about those. Also, in my observation, Deathrite Shaman and RIP have been pushing decks away from graveyard reliance. What other decks were you thinking of?

[andrebonotto]

(...)
MVPs: Sphere of Safety. Moat is yesterday's news.
(...)
.

Congrats on your performance!


Quick question from a foreigner: What does MVP mean?

[JanoschEausH]

Congrats on your performance!


Quick question from a foreigner: What does MVP mean?


MVP= Most Valuable Player. Its a phrase from sports. It means that this card was the most valuable card during that specific tournament.

[andrebonotto]

MVP= Most Valuable Player. Its a phrase from sports. It means that this card was the most valuable card during that specific tournament.

Thanks!

By the way, it's nice to see that the "traditional" version of Enchantress still has good results on this metagame.

I'm planning to build this deck and this kind of news (specially acompanied by a report) is inspiring. :smile:

[waSP]

So why has no one considered running both Replenish and Rest in Peace in the same deck. I see a lot of lists running Chrome Mox. There are a lot of matchup where neither card matters and a few where one is much, much better than the others. Provided you can figure out which matchup you're playing against by turn 3 or 4, you can Chrome away the useless card.

[Nonex]

I play 2 Replenish MD and 4 RiP SB. They usually switch sides when RiP is needed. Does that count?

[forestfold]

I like RIP a lot as a card, but I don't agree with your statement. The card improves the Reanimator matchup and the Dredge matchup, and that's pretty much all. RUG's most dangerous weapon is Delver of Secrets. I have a fantastic record against RUG, but their Turn 1 Delver on the play is their best chance to win, and it's very strong. I can think of only maybe one or two games I've ever lost to RUG creatures that weren't Delver, so I don't see RIP as necessary there. There are no other major decks I can think of that I would call graveyard-centric. There are a few fringe decks, but I don't care about those. Also, in my observation, Deathrite Shaman and RIP have been pushing decks away from graveyard reliance. What other decks were you thinking of?

I guess this depends somewhat on your local meta, and how far up the food chain you plan on running. The important part of RIP is that it hoses both of your graveyards. I will grant that graveyard-dependent decks aren't very popular right now, but what I am saying is that there are a lot of decks in the works right now that lean on it. BUG has been hugely popular in the last two SCG opens, and the hot new card is Deathrite Shaman and guess what it is without a graveyard? A Sanctuary Cat. Snapcaster Mage becomes an Elite Vanguard with flash. Life from the Loam is a dead card. Knight of the Relinquary never gets past 2/2. Tombstalker becomes a horrible deal. High Tide doesn't get to recycle itself. That's just the start.

I'm not sure exactly why you're referencing the RUG Delver match-up, but RIP/Energy Field basically means they cannot win. They have exactly 3 cards to deal with the resolved combo, and they're all in the side board. This would actually be a match I would say to run both RIP and Replenish, as Replenish is pretty good against counter-heavy decks. I think Sphere of Safety and Bloodmoon are probably the best cards for this fight, but i'd also like to point out that RIP keeps Tarmogoyf an 0/1 and Nimble Mongoose a 1/1.

I did poorly word my sentence, but I don't think you should dismiss a hybrid build until you've tested with it, as I am doing. If you want to stick to your build, that is fine, but if you're going to advise against my suggestions you should probably put them through their paces first aye?

@Nonex : Saying that they can't be in the same deck is just the principle of them being a non-bo, which you generally don't want to be stuck playing because it gives you dead cards. If you are playing against a lot of counterspells, or someone with access to something like Reverent Silence, Replenish is great thing to have. Both in the main deck would probably be awkward though, and I wouldn't recommend it unless you want RIP/EF combo and expect a ton of counters.

[ESG]

OK, first of all, since you are new to The Source, I'll point out that this thread is for the established build, hence being in the Established Decks section. If you want to discuss three-color hybrids that run maindeck Energy Field, post in the New and Developmental Decks section. Freggle started a discussion for that variant months ago: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24692-Developmental-Enchantress-with-Rest-In-Peace-Helm


RIP/Energy Field basically means they cannot win.

The post I was replying to did not mention Energy Field.


If you want to stick to your build, that is fine, but if you're going to advise against my suggestions you should probably put them through their paces first aye?

Actually, since your build deviates from established builds, the onus is on you to provide results and convincing arguments as to why your build is superior to the established build. If you go back through this thread, you'll see people come in with all sorts of ideas -- most of which were already attempted in some form -- which were later abandoned because they didn't cut it. That won't necessarily apply to your idea, but approach it with a bit of humility.

I like Rest in Peace a lot, as I said, but my overarching question about your post was what problems does Rest in Peace solve that this deck has? And along with that, if we decide Rest in Peace solves enough problems that it merits maindeck inclusion, what do we bump in order to make space for it?

[forestfold]

OK, first of all, since you are new to The Source, I'll point out that this thread is for the established build, hence being in the Established Decks section. If you want to discuss three-color hybrids that run maindeck Energy Field, post in the New and Developmental Decks section. Freggle started a discussion for that variant months ago: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24692-Developmental-Enchantress-with-Rest-In-Peace-Helm

I am aware. I haven't been posting in quite a while, but I have been reading the source for a year and a half. I am also aware that Freggle has a thread that is dedicated to grafting Helm/RIP combo in to the Enchantress shell.


The post I was replying to did not mention Energy Field.

You were addressing several posts in the same paragraph I guess, which was my mistake, I assumed it was all directed at me.


Actually, since your build deviates from established builds, the onus is on you to provide results and convincing arguments as to why your build is superior to the established build. If you go back through this thread, you'll see people come in with all sorts of ideas -- most of which were already attempted in some form -- which were later abandoned because they didn't cut it. That won't necessarily apply to your idea, but approach it with a bit of humility.

I like Rest in Peace a lot, as I said, but my overarching question about your post was what problems does Rest in Peace solve that this deck has? And along with that, if we decide Rest in Peace solves enough problems that it merits maindeck inclusion, what do we bump in order to make space for it?

I just told you the problems I thought the card itself addressed, and if you read the last page you'll see I laid out the blue splash for energy field main-decked and mana maze in the sideboard. I have been testing it, and as I said for my small MU I have been doing extremely well, but legacy has a pretty limited spread in the far northeast. Last page someone asked for a hybrid list, so I offered mine. I am not talking about a new deck, I am talking about dropping the red splash for a blue splash. So far I've only dropped 2 matches, and only 6 games with this new build. (out of 16 matches and 35 games) The problem is that I don't get to repeatedly play against a wide field. Four of those 2-0's are vs. dredge, which is basically a bye, and 4 of the 6 games lost are to elves, which is one of my worst matches. The closest SCG Open's are Boston for me, which is probably the first time i'll be able to take it to a large playing field. After I can get a few proxy matches in vs. some of the newer style BUG/Jund decks, I'll let you all know. I don't think this needs its' own thread, nor do I think it belongs in the Helm/RIP thread, but if most people think so than I will switch.

I don't see why you're asking me to present a humble front. I did not intend to ruffle your feathers, I was just arguing my case. If you found my post offensive, I apologize, but that was not my intent. I have read the entire thread, and while I don't recall this being seriously brought up before, I will go back over the last 20 or 30 pages tomorrow when I have time. Cheers,

[ESG]

If you have read the thread before, don't worry about going over it again. I noticed you were new, so I assumed you might be unaware of that other thread.

I ran Energy Field in the sideboard for a very brief period years ago when Zoo was one of the top decks because I found the card strong in that matchup. Amusingly, I lost Game 2 of a Mox tournament after sticking it because he turned out to have Wastelands in his build (very rare for Zoo at the time) and I had fetched my one-of Tropical Island to play it. I then sideboarded them out and took Game 3. I find Energy Field to be too difficult to support, both in that it weakens the manabase and can be too easily dealt with by opposing decks. It gets better when combined with Rest in Peace, but you're then trying to piece together a two-card combo that merely stalls. I could see this as viable if people weren't running copious answers in their 75, but I see very few matchups where the pros outweigh the cons. I would rather have that Energy Field be another Enchantress effect, another piece of acceleration, or a flexible answer card, like an Oblivion Ring.

The question surrounding Rest in Peace is whether it does enough against the format as a whole to merit maindeck inclusion. You feel it does; I feel it currently does not. I read your points about cards it weakens, but I don't feel those cards were much of a threat to the deck in the first place. If every player shoves 4 Deathrite Shaman into his or her deck (which seems to be the trend at the moment), then it's possible running RIP maindeck could be correct. In games where you'd run it out Turn 2, it would hamstring their mana development. Or that mana development might not be significant enough alone to change many games' outcomes. Or RIP might not be worthwhile if it came up on Turn 4 or Turn 5. We shall see.

[forestfold]

The question surrounding Rest in Peace is whether it does enough against the format as a whole to merit maindeck inclusion. You feel it does; I feel it currently does not. I read your points about cards it weakens, but I don't feel those cards were much of a threat to the deck in the first place. If every player shoves 4 Deathrite Shaman into his or her deck (which seems to be the trend at the moment), then it's possible running RIP maindeck could be correct. In games where you'd run it out Turn 2, it would hamstring their mana development. Or that mana development might not be significant enough alone to change many games' outcomes. Or RIP might not be worthwhile if it came up on Turn 4 or Turn 5. We shall see.

I will do my best to get some practices and do some reporting. Sadly, legacy is only once a month now due to trying to get behind supporting modern in my shop. And they do silly things like have standard tournaments to win Moxes around here... sigh. So most of my focus right now is on those formats, and hitting t8 for those.

[GoldenCid]

Hi everybody!

Throught MWS i saw 2 nice sinergies: Mana bloom + Enchantress ---> high draw!

and enchanted evening + primeval light = "Obliterate".


Do they worth¿?

[ForlornEgoist]

Hi everybody!

Throught MWS i saw 2 nice sinergies: Mana bloom + Enchantress ---> high draw!

and enchanted evening + primeval light = "Obliterate".


Do they worth¿?

While Mana Bloom is still being testing by some Enchantress players, I feel confident in saying that many of us have discarded the notion of using it simply because it really provides little, if any, acceleration, and the small benefit of a recurring enchantment (for CA) does not negate the downsides of it not providing real acceleration or any other benefit to the deck. Like I've said before, had it read "Remove any number of counters," this might be a different story.

As for the combo between Enchanted Evening and Primeval Light, its cute, but when would you ever reasonably want to set up this combo in examples where we couldn't already lock out their board with another mainstream enchantment? Our decks strength has always been more of the style that "try as much as you like, you can't do anything to me." I'm not saying our deck can't work more aggressive elements into it, however, combos such as this just tend to be limited in scope for practical application as well as difficult to set up. Both of these cards are useless without the other. If you're looking to screw over your opponents board, consider the GU/w variant of Enchantress in developing. Also, counters are still relevant and, unlike Obliterate, Primeval Light can still be countered.

Forlorn Egoist

[JanoschEausH]

I am currently testing Mana Bloom in my Enchantress Deck. The thing about this card is the following: You can simply stall with 1 Echantress Effect, Mana Bloom and a Solitary Confinement. Normally you need 2 Enchantres Effects to effectively lock you opponent out of the game. With Mana Bloom, you need only one. You can't win the game out of this situation, but it gives you alot of time.

[GoldenCid]

I am currently testing Mana Bloom in my Enchantress Deck. The thing about this card is the following: You can simply stall with 1 Echantress Effect, Mana Bloom and a Solitary Confinement. Normally you need 2 Enchantres Effects to effectively lock you opponent out of the game. With Mana Bloom, you need only one. You can't win the game out of this situation, but it gives you alot of time.

Exactly, i'm not looking for acceleration but recursiveness. You almost warrant 2 enchantments in hand when you drop confinemet. It happened to me drawing into lands and forced to sac confinement leaving to topdeck. I0m not saying that bloom is a must but it worth trying.

On Evening - LIght: well we have to admit that it's at least curious or funny. In mirror match (GWr vs GW) i had the advantage on the table. I had confinement, grove + 3 enchantress effects. He dropped evening and pass. I do the mine and pass. Then he cast light 0.0! GG.

But talking about competitive buildings i'm looking for a version with "good" MU against blue decks. I'm thinking in zenith buils for "recovering" countered argotians as MD plan. Then i'm thining in carpet + city or shusher + Dovescape as side plan. I tested the first who tested the second??

GC.

[waSP]

I've tested the second and it's often not better than your normal plan. For something like that, you need something that is strictly better.

[madmen420]

So I ran enchantress at GP Denver and ended up going 5-2-1 with losing my win and in on game 3 after getting stuck on 2 lands and missing my 3rd land drop, well never got it that is why I lost. I play a typical stock list with Sphere of Safety in the main over Moat which is great at the moment. SO here is the list and match ups

4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
2 Mirri's Guile
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Sterling Grove
2 Ground Seal
3 Elephant Grass
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Solitary Confinement
1 Sphere of Safety
1 Runed Halo
1 Words of War
1 Blood Moon
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
2 Replenish
1 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Plains
7 Forest
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
2 Serra's Sanctum
1 Savannah
1 Taiga
1 Karakas

Side Board

2 Choke
2 Karmic Justice
1 Stony Silence
1 Aura of Silence
1 Seal of Primordium
2 Humility
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Moat
1 Rest in Peace

Round 1 Esper 0-2 (0-1)
Lose pretty quickly in game one as he counters the good stuff and beats me quickly. Game 2 I lose to a miss play on my end and the round is over. Feel pretty bad after this one as I know I should have game 2 won.

Round 2 Burn 2-1 (1-1)
He wins game one as I do not hit a Solitary at all. Game 2 win on the back of the Leyline. Game 3 he chaos warp my Leyline I flip Runed Halo naming Bolt after the game he shows me the 3 bolts in his hand, I was at 6 life.

Round 3 Storm 2-0 (2-1)
Game 1 he Iok and cabal therapy me getting solitary and 2 Enchantress's Presence I then hit replenish. Game 2 he empty the warrens I sit behind a elephant grass play sphere of safety he scoops.

Round 4 Goblins 1-1-1 (2-1-1)
Game 1 he gets a turn one lackey ( like he did each game) I take quick beats lose on turn 3. Game 2 lock him out with solitary after he has another quick start he keeps plaing till I hit a win condition takes some time. Game 3 I turn 2 Argothian , turn 3 Moat, turn 4 Humility, turn 5 Blood Moon he has no outs does not scoop goes to time after Words of War was at the bottom.

Round 5 RUG 2-1 (3-1-1)
Game 1 he beats me bad after 2 quick delvers and a bolt counters solitary. Games 2 he runs out of counters I Replenish at 1 life. Game 3 I am to fast for him and he scoops up pretty quick.

Round 6 Zombies 2-0 (4-1-1)
Game 1 he can not beat a Solitary Confinement. Game 2 he can't beat one with a sterling grove.

Round 7 Esper Blade 2-1 (5-1-1)
She beats me quick game 1 with a batterskull and some spirits. Game 2 I almost lose to a vindicate and a flashed back vindicate but hit both Replenish. Game 3 was maybe the best game of the tourny as she beat me quickly top deck a confinement had to let it go after nothing but lands in my had top decked a elephant grass and went off.

Round 8 RUG 1-2 (5-2-1)
Game 1 he wins with delver and tarmogoyf. Game 2 I lock him out after being at 3, he doesn't have bolt in hand. Game 3 I have forest and plains in my opening hand with argothian, solitary, and enchantress's presence he counters my argothian and mirri's guile and never see another land for 5 turns of play, after the match i asked if he had any counters and he showed me his hand of Force of Will and 3 green cards.

Recap

Sphere of Safety is the new moat maybe even better. I should have left atleast one o-ring in against goblins looking at hind sight and o-ring my own humility and swung with all my angels. Blood Moon was great maybe just move it to the board. Would like to have a 3rd win con in my 75. I love playing this deck and now have lost my win and in at the last 2 legacy GP's. If it wasnt for not miss playing round 1 and not leaving a oring in against Goblins there would be more rounds of coverage but it happens. Would like for any thoughts about deck construction or any other ideas. Thanks

[GoldenCid]

Wow congrats!! Nice record and nice list. Its similar to mine's. Id like to ask you if the lonely zienith could be a tutor. 5 tutor spells sounds better than 1 creature tutor. I actually run 2 e tutor in my deck but id like to read your reasoning for this choice.


GC.

[madmen420]

I have been playing with e tutor for a while and took it out at the GP for an extra ground seal. I only missed the etutor in my goblins matchup. I just dont care for the card disadvantage that much which it is but also at the same time it will find your silver bullets. Have about ten months of more testing and playing this every week to get ready for GP DC.

[forestfold]

I like my list without Enlightened Tutor as well, I just rarely want to be casting it first turn, and by the time I really want a certain enchantment I can usually find a Sterling Grove if I can't find it. Nice job at the GP, was your deck the one in the coverage photo? (Tour of Combo, or something like that?) I couldn't afford the flight, and circumstances would have kept me home on doctor's orders anyway, so I'm glad I didn't try for it. I will be going to DC if I have to walk though, and hoping to make it deep.
I would also echo always leaving one Oblivion Ring in the main board, no matter what. I have never drawn it and not had something to do with it, or something I wanted to wait for to use it on. It just solves so many weird problems that you come across in Legacy, the format of weird problems.

[GoldenCid]

Well, i think that its a matter of play style. Personally i like having an istant speed answer. If my opo lands a pernicious deed i like doing eot tutor ------> Karmic justice. As well as for moat in case of a horde of goblins. Yeah we have groove but i like keeping the "double purpose" of it: tutor + portection. So i often use it for tutoring but other times as protection for my confinement lock.
On the other hand: how many wind cond are you runnig? 2 o 3. I run 2 actualy (WoW and SotET) but sometimes when i'm discards for example i'd like running a 3rd. Maybe sacred mesa or Luminach ascenssion or even 2 sigil + 1 woW.
What do you think?

GC

[madmen420]

I would like a third win con in but I really dont think it is needed as 99% of people scoop once you have them on lock so the more important pieces are the argothian, enchantress, solitary, sterling, moat/sphere/grass/ghostly things of that nature and once they see a win con they most certainly scoop. This is my experance with the deck.

[waSP]

So everyone is still of the opinion that Mirri's Guile is strictly better than Sensei's Divining Top? It sounds like a top would have made madmen420's game against Esper Blade a lot easier, allowing him to find the Elephant Grass a turn earlier.

[GoldenCid]

So everyone is still of the opinion that Mirri's Guile is strictly better than Sensei's Divining Top? It sounds like a top would have made madmen420's game against Esper Blade a lot easier, allowing him to find the Elephant Grass a turn earlier.

I see this issue like this: Mirri's guile is an enchantment and for free allows you to scry 3 every turn.
Top demands 1 mana for the same but it's an anrtifact with the option of 1 additional draw. I'll always prefer guile over top in this deck.

[waSP]

Using your turn 1 to cast Mirri's Guile instead of acceleration (or if you're running Chrome Mox, a 2-coster) is not free. You lose tempo for some card selection in the next few turns. Mirri's Guile becomes less useful later in the game. I can see the viewpoint of a deck that is very light on acceleration wanting this card. Mid-to-late game though, it gets worse and worse. And it doesn't actually Scry; you get to look at the top 3 and rearrange. You cannot put them on the bottom of your library.

I will admit Top does introduce more choices into your gameplay which can be daunting at first. Top offers continuous deeper dig when you've got an Enchantress out. It has good synergy with Solitary Confinement as well.

[madmen420]

Top should not be in this deck. If you are not a fan of guile than you should run Sylvan Library if you want the card draw and the scry ability. Guile is usually met with a counter spell on turn one which sometimes leads the way for argothian on turn two if you do not have ramp on turn one. Also it is never a dead draw late game if you have Sigil or WoW out as one mana gets you a 4/4 angel or two damage.

[waSP]

If your meta is full of bad players who are willing to counter it, it doesn't matter which you play. None of the arguments offered here support actually running Guile over Top. Those same opponents would counter Top and guile didn't draw you a card when you played it turn 1. Late game, Top will draw you several more cards than Mirri's Guile because it allows you to dig for enchantments after you are out of gas.

Edited for condescension. Keep it civil, please. -zilla

[Freggle]

If your meta is full of bad players who are willing to counter it, it doesn't matter which you play. None of the arguments offered here support actually running Guile over Top. Those same opponents would counter Top and guile didn't draw you a card when you played it turn 1. Late game, Top will draw you several more cards than Mirri's Guile because it allows you to dig for enchantments after you are out of gas.

waSP having difficulty following you here. From what I read you find Top to be better than Mirri's Guile because it can be used multiple times in a turn? ...or is it more that you can draw off of it?

It is interesting that if you have 2 or more enchantress effects and top out you can peek with top find an enchantment tap draw enchantment put top on top of the library cast enchantment and draw top and the next card +.

As you say "it allows you to dig for enchantments after you are out of gas." That can be very helpful.

The part that makes me say it is hands down superior is that Top is quite mana intensive & enchantress is a very mana hungry deck. In fact I find the mana of a turn being our limit more of the time than I do having enchantments because we fundamentally break the draw rule of MTG.

The part that concerns me is that Top takes mana away from the deck in a few different ways. It requires :1: to spin and it also doesn't count to the enchantment count of Serra's Sanctum. Secondly, since it reduces the overall enchantment count potentially weakens Solitary Confinement & the rising star Sphere of Safety (ever so slightly.)

In the end it's not a bad choice and may give the deck greater resiliency as Top is tough to deal with, would not be wiped on mass enchantment hate, and can almost single-handedly get you back into a game. I do think it is a matter of what else is in the deck, and what you expect a meta to be.

Did I get your points right?

[Freggle]

Having taken a bit of a break from Legacy for a bit I'm looking to return to a more traditional enchantress list.

I know some of us have disagreed on card choices in the past, but I wanted to post this list here to get feedback. My meta is non-existent, however recently there is going to be an event starting as a result of a Facebook group finally taking hold so I feel obligated to support it.

Having played in the area in the past I know that storm is non-existent. There are combo players but most play elves, or aggro combo decks.

Knowing BUG is a thing especially Abrupt Decay my feelings on Sterling Grove has shifted from almost certainly sideboard to must play. The life loss on Deathrite Shaman also makes Energy Field a little less attractive ATM.

...and additionally since BUG & Control MU are attrition based MU I feel it is more correct to play Replenish now than ever.

I expect to see:

Dredge
Stiflenaught
RUG
BUG
Elves
Maverick?
& other stuff.

Given this is my best guess on the meta I have developed this list:

Main (60)

Creatures (6)
4 Argothian Enchantress
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Progenitus

Enchantments (31)
4 Enchantress's Presence
3 Defense of the Heart
4 Sterling Grove
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
1 Sphere of Safety
3 Mirri's Guile
4 Solitary Confinement
4 Elephant Grass

Sorcery (4)
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Replenish

Lands (19)
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Forbidden Orchard
1 Savannah
7 Forest
2 Serra's Sanctum
1 Karakas

Sideboard:
1 Replenish
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Carpet of Flowers
3 Rest in Peace
2 Pithing Needle
1 Oblivion Ring

It is essentially a stock list with a Defense of the Heart emphasis. I have played Defense in this meta in the past and have done decent with it. I personally like to close games out fast, and of all the lists I have played Defense does this the best. Defense can also race Deathrite Shaman.

The goal is to stall and steal fast wins fueled with Forbidden Orchard / Defense of the Heart. There is also a sort of inevitability to this deck. Once the deck hits 11 mana all Green Sun's Zeniths can be Progenitus. I also choose to run Progenitus because it will shuffle back in even with a Rest in Peace on the battlefield.

I would love to hear you comments / criticism. I personally would like to squeeze in a few Karmic Justice for mass enchantment / permanent hate but I am unsure if it's needed, and what I should swap for it.

[JanoschEausH]

I just found this card: Spiritual Focus. I think this could be a secred tech against all those Jund and BUG lists playing Hymn and Liliana. We could use this as an addition to the Leylines of Sanctity from the sideboard. What do you guys think?

[madmen420]

I just found this card: Spiritual Focus. I think this could be a secred tech against all those Jund and BUG lists playing Hymn and Liliana. We could use this as an addition to the Leylines of Sanctity from the sideboard. What do you guys think?


If you don't think Leylines are enough to slow them down as thoughtseize, duress, IoK, Hymn, Gerrard's Verdict(if any one plays that anymore), cabal therapy, ect all say target so if they are playing discard heavy decks you may or may not mull to a Leyline. It does work against Liliana but thats about it. If we hit a leyline that should slow them down enough to get are draw engine going and Liliana can +1 all day (each player discard a card) but her -6 ability is a target which Leyline stops

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Freggle - I think that the ubiquity of Deathrite Shaman in the format means that, now more than ever, Ground Seals maindeck are a must.

[forestfold]

I would agree with Spatula, I think one main deck seal is perfectly reasonable since we never target specifics in the graveyard anyway. I think reliance on little green men like deathrite and company makes words of war look pretty good too, and gives you another chance against elves which I find to be a bad matchup generally. I haven't played the new version, but i'm guessing it's a little worse for us after sideboard, and a little better before since elephant grass is good vs. behemoth and progenitus.

I would also echo a no for Top. It is a very powerful card, obviously, but it just doesn't synergize well with the deck. I don't think the occasional save from a bad string of topdecks while you have solitary out is a reason to switch to top.


On a positive note, Blind Obedience... draw one for 2 mana, alternative win condition, and kismet in the same package? Thoughts?

[JanoschEausH]

On a positive note, Blind Obedience... draw one for 2 mana, alternative win condition, and kismet in the same package? Thoughts?

I don't like it that much... It works only against creatures with haste, so could be good against Goblins.

[Freggle]

So today I did go to a local Orlando Store tournament (The Game Academy - Orlando) with the following list:

Creatures (6)
4 Argothian Enchantress
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Progenitus

Enchantments (31)
4 Enchantress's Presence
3 Defense of the Heart
3 Sterling Grove
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
3 Solitary Confinement
4 Elephant Grass
1 Sphere of Safety
2 Mirri's Guile
2 Ground Seal
1 Sigil of The Empty Throne

Sorcery (4)
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Replenish

Lands (19)
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Forbidden Orchard
1 Savannah
7 Forest
2 Serra's Sanctum
1 Karakas

Sideboard (15)
1 Replenish
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Carpet of Flowers
3 Rest in Peace
2 Pithing Needle
2 Oblivion Ring


There was 17 players. I started strong and then punted pretty hard ending 2-3.

Round 1 Max w/ Maverick (-1 Ground Seal +1 Needle)
I took both games on the back of Defense and Solitary Confinement. Defense is really strong in this MU.

Round 2 - Matt - B/W Tokens (Brought in the Leylines and took out Sigil and other one of's)
Again 2-0 with both Defense and Solitary Confinement with Leyline support.

Round 3 Zach w/ Nic Fit (Brought in Leyline, 1 needle, 1 Replenish)

0-2 Blown out by Deed both Games. The discard G1 was also no fun. Game 2 I land Needle on Deed it gets decayed, then deed wipes. I replenish, Deed wipes. I stall with E Grass. Deed wipes. I loose.

Round 4 Mark w/ Zombardment (I sideboard wrong: Bring in Leylines, Replenish, and Needle And shave numbers) -- I should have dropped ground seals and shaved for Leylines and RiP's

0-2 Game 1 I keep a stupid 6 card hand with 2 Sprawls, 2 Orchards, and a Defense & ?. I figure I can quick Defense and just win sans enchantress. I dodge discard but Mark lands a Carrion Feeder so he can keep his creature count below 3. I loose badly.
death
Game 2 - No Leyline and I get ripped apart by discard. 2 Thoughtseize and 2 Cabal (rebought as well) pick me apart as I stall on 2 lands. Deathrite gets the honors of doing me in.

Round 5 Tyler w/ Affinity (no board)

I win Game 1 off of Solitary Confinement and GSZ-ing for Progenitus.

Game 2 - I loose a heartbreaker to a Cranial plated spirit I gave my opponent. I see a line where I have an out. I drop Defense and it eats K Grip.

Game 3 - Lost a super tight game. Cranial Plating & Disciple of the vault makes a mockery of my lack of stall. I drop Defense and trigger it T4 bringing both Progenitus and Emrakul to the party, but loose to an exact swing Disciple Archbound Ravager combo to take game 3 before my fatties get their chance.

This MU is where I really missed my Energy Fields

The good news I never felt like my 75 had no chance. I did keep bad hands and did not top deck well, but I never felt helpless. I still feel good about Defense, but It does need to be backed up with another win. ...although GSZ for Progenitus is pretty easy.

Missed opportunities I really with I would have followed my instincts and found slots somewhere in the 75 for Karmic Justice. I really feel that is the best way to deal with the B/G Decks. I also think Leyline of Sanctity, Replenish & Solitary Confinement needs more support to fight through discard. My heart tells me Compost but I may try Spreading Algae based off of Spatula's comments in here.

I'm not so sure Ground Seal pulled it's weight here. I like the idea of it, but with deed being able to handle it seemingly at will I don't see where that is the best card choice.

What is the consensus on the best way to punch through these BG decks?

Anything else people could do to this list to make it better/ more well rounded?

Thanks for reading

[ESG]

What is the consensus on the best way to punch through these BG decks?

"BG decks" is pretty broad.

If the deck is focused on stripping your hand, like Pox, I feel the most important card is Mirri's Guile. Pox runs both players out of cards in hand and often leaves you with one or no lands at some point, so being able to dig for land and set up plays two turns ahead is vital. Mono-black Pox can't deal with an Enchantress's Presence and has difficulty dealing with artifacts. The last time I faced a Pox deck in a tournament, I imprinted a Solitary Confinement on a Chrome Mox, and that went unmolested for the rest of the game, which allowed me to set up Oblivion Ring on Liliana later on. I also like Compost in this matchup. Spreading Algae could also be good, especially if they're running Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth. As long as you draw more cards than your opponent, you should win. Pox usually has a very slow clock, allowing you time to rebuild.

If the deck runs Pernicious Deed or similar mass destruction for permanents, then you want Karmic Justice and probably also Replenish. Pithing Needle isn't as good now that Abrupt Decay exists, so I wouldn't run it in the 75 unless you're expecting matchups where it would be important (Charbelcher, Sneak and Show).

Grave hate is solid against Zombardment, and Elephant Grass is quite good. When I expect a graveyard-centric environment, I usually run a one-of Scavenging Ooze in the sideboard and bring it in to Zenith for postboard.

I generally don't have any trouble with Affinity. At various times in the past, I have run Seal of Primordium, which is gravy in this matchup. I also once went into an event knowing there would be lots of Affinity, and I ran two Seeds of Innocence in my sideboard and cleaned house.

[GoldenCid]

"BG decks" is pretty broad.

If the deck is focused on stripping your hand, like Pox, I feel the most important card is Mirri's Guile. Pox runs both players out of cards in hand and often leaves you with one or no lands at some point, so being able to dig for land and set up plays two turns ahead is vital. Mono-black Pox can't deal with an Enchantress's Presence and has difficulty dealing with artifacts. The last time I faced a Pox deck in a tournament, I imprinted a Solitary Confinement on a Chrome Mox, and that went unmolested for the rest of the game, which allowed me to set up Oblivion Ring on Liliana later on. I also like Compost in this matchup. Spreading Algae could also be good, especially if they're running Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth. As long as you draw more cards than your opponent, you should win. Pox usually has a very slow clock, allowing you time to rebuild.

If the deck runs Pernicious Deed or similar mass destruction for permanents, then you want Karmic Justice and probably also Replenish. Pithing Needle isn't as good now that Abrupt Decay exists, so I wouldn't run it in the 75 unless you're expecting matchups where it would be important (Charbelcher, Sneak and Show).

Grave hate is solid against Zombardment, and Elephant Grass is quite good. When I expect a graveyard-centric environment, I usually run a one-of Scavenging Ooze in the sideboard and bring it in to Zenith for postboard.

I generally don't have any trouble with Affinity. At various times in the past, I have run Seal of Primordium, which is gravy in this matchup. I also once went into an event knowing there would be lots of Affinity, and I ran two Seeds of Innocence in my sideboard and cleaned house. speaking of affinity and whatever deck that cast 2 or more artifacts in a turn, aura of silence sounds better....

GC.

[forestfold]

speaking of affinity and whatever deck that cast 2 or more artifacts in a turn, aura of silence sounds better....

GC.

Stony Silence turn two/three, and they can only swing with what non-artifact lands they have already played, and they have zero mana sources they can activate. Need to find it though, but elephant grass plus this is back breaking.

If there is a lot of maverick/nic fit floating in your MU, it depends on what else you face I think. When I was having a lot of trouble with wasteland decks, i moved karakas to the SB and added a sacred ground. That's kind of hilarious. Karmic Justice is the best answer for deed by a long shot, combined with replenish. I'd rather face a dozen wastelands than rashidan port though. A friend has lands, and that is miserable. I still have 1 city of solitude main deck though, so sometimes I get to laugh at him.

[GoldenCid]

Stony Silence turn two/three, and they can only swing with what non-artifact lands they have already played, and they have zero mana sources they can activate. Need to find it though, but elephant grass plus this is back breaking.

If there is a lot of maverick/nic fit floating in your MU, it depends on what else you face I think. When I was having a lot of trouble with wasteland decks, i moved karakas to the SB and added a sacred ground. That's kind of hilarious. Karmic Justice is the best answer for deed by a long shot, combined with replenish. I'd rather face a dozen wastelands than rashidan port though. A friend has lands, and that is miserable. I still have 1 city of solitude main deck though, so sometimes I get to laugh at him.

Yeah stony silence is quite good too!

Sacred ground didnt work to me. You have to top deck in turn 2 as late while sinkhole / wasteland are there from turn 1.

[Parax]

I really think Karmic justice is a card that while is obviously the nuts, is a card that is wonderful.

Last week my opponent dropped the EE on 1 and a tutored up the K.Justice. My opponent at that point didn't want to blow up my E.Grass (and 3 Growth effects) holding back his Batterskull.

The worst thing i saw against me (was the same guy) was he brought in Cannonist to combat us. I didn't think it through and didn't side in my Harmonic Sliver.

[aznepyon7]

So today I did go to a local Orlando Store tournament (The Game Academy - Orlando) with the following list:

Creatures (6)
4 Argothian Enchantress
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Progenitus

Enchantments (31)
4 Enchantress's Presence
3 Defense of the Heart
3 Sterling Grove
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
3 Solitary Confinement
4 Elephant Grass
1 Sphere of Safety
2 Mirri's Guile
2 Ground Seal
1 Sigil of The Empty Throne

Sorcery (4)
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Replenish

Lands (19)
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Forbidden Orchard
1 Savannah
7 Forest
2 Serra's Sanctum
1 Karakas

Sideboard (15)
1 Replenish
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Carpet of Flowers
3 Rest in Peace
2 Pithing Needle
2 Oblivion Ring

The good news I never felt like my 75 had no chance. I did keep bad hands and did not top deck well, but I never felt helpless. I still feel good about Defense, but It does need to be backed up with another win. ...although GSZ for Progenitus is pretty easy.

Missed opportunities I really with I would have followed my instincts and found slots somewhere in the 75 for Karmic Justice. I really feel that is the best way to deal with the B/G Decks. I also think Leyline of Sanctity, Replenish & Solitary Confinement needs more support to fight through discard. My heart tells me Compost but I may try Spreading Algae based off of Spatula's comments in here.

I'm not so sure Ground Seal pulled it's weight here. I like the idea of it, but with deed being able to handle it seemingly at will I don't see where that is the best card choice.

What is the consensus on the best way to punch through these BG decks?

Anything else people could do to this list to make it better/ more well rounded?

Thanks for reading


Ground seal is necessary due to the amount of DRS running around. The MU you had weren't full of DRS from Jund and TA and other similar decks so it didn't seem as good. But really, it's the rage these days. The days of Maverick and Zoo are long gone.

I would run another 1-2 Mirri's Guile. This is probably the best advice I can give you. Early game and quick stabilization with minimizing interaction is better than explosiveness. It needs to be dealt with early and many people miss this and is one of their biggest mistakes. Counters/Discard aren't as much as a threat when you keep drawing threats one by one, using fetches to refresh your draw choices. Just keep stalling, looking pretty, and drawing slowly and eventually they're going to get screwed. They can't keep paying for Elephant Grass, countering, and discarding all at the same time. Also it doesn't really matter what you draw later, all that matters is getting your set up then you're going to have a cakewalk. I've seen some builds run Sylvan Library but never tried it.

You will have to consider land denial. This is one of Enchantress' weakest points. You may point out that you run a lot of basics but I don't think that is going to cut it when TA and Jund run the Sinkhole package. Denying them BB is quite difficult as well. It may not be a bad idea to use an enchantment that protect your land if you think this will be a problem.

Personally I'm not a fan of Defense of the Heart. As stated before, I think the key is stabilization and it offers nothing until it activates. It takes a while to play which is big when everything can outrace you. Also, it needs to played without being countered, and a single Delver with a DRS can do significant damage. Can't rely on Forbidden Orchard to get there when you need it thanks to all the wastelands. If you choose to run it, don't use more than 2 IMO. But really you should be playing more quick casting cards and trying to get your engine out, not thinking about winning.



Against BUG:

They are very graveyard dependent. DSR, Tombstalker, Goyf. GY hate is key here. RIP is good here. I know it sucks with Replenish. You need to make a choice here. Alternatively, wheel of sun and moon is pretty decent too if you get it out early. It also serves as a win condition actually. Cast it on yourself and make yourself invulnerable and sit there until your opponent runs out of cards because you can't deck out. Often your opponent doesn't realize this until it's too late. They let it pass while you get your Sterling Grove out while you pretend to play problem cards to grind them down. Remember how you win isn't important, it's how you set up. Usually I use this with words of wind. I haven't tested WoW recently though and I might not play with with all the land removal out there because I want a stable mana base.

Consider city of solitude. Really makes BUG nervous and makes them consider whether they want to Discard or Abrupt Decay during their main phase. Not to mention it shuts off their counters which they definitely do not like. If it gets countered, then no matter because it's not part of your draw engine. Stall the game until your draw engine is down!

You should also add your 4th Sterling Grove. They become a lot better when you must protect your Elephant Grass, Ground Seal, Presence, Confinement. When they try to destroy it, you can always go fetch. Worse case scenario - it's a trade with a counter or a removal.

I second that Pernicious Deed is handled quite well by Karmic Justice. Worse case scenario a trade with counter or a removal with one of their permanents.

Also when I play Solitary Confinement for the first time, i usually expect it to get countered or removed which is good because you want to draw out removal and counter. It should be played when your draw engine is robust.

Elvish Spirit Guide helps get your engine out faster and is a nasty surprise for all those Daze-lovers as it sets them back a turn. This is especially useful 1st game when you might not know to play around the Daze. chrome mox is also there if you want explosiveness. You don't really need to run too many of them.



TL;DR - Remove the Defense of the Hearts, switch the Forbidden Orchards to basics/fetchlands, and one of your win-condition creatures and perhaps a single GSZ for Mirri's Guile, Sterling Grove and some combination of Karmic Justice/Elvish Spirit Guide/Wheel of Sun and Moon or whatever Spatula mentioned.

[ESG]

It's worth noting that if you have City of Solitude out, you can't tutor with your Sterling Grove in response to removal.

Recent experiments:

I tested Rest in Peace and Helm of Obedience as a secondary avenue to victory. I also tested a build with Suppression Field. Of the two, the Suppression Field version worked better. Deathrite Shaman has increased the number of fetchlands people are running, both as a way to fuel him and because several decks are stretching into either three or four colors, so in order to have consistent mana, they need to run more fetchlands to grab the dual land they need. Suppression Field is very good at slowing down the game, hitting fetches, Deathrite Shaman, Sensei's Divining Top, planeswalkers, equipment, Pernicious Deed, Engineered Explosives, Sneak Attack, Knight of the Reliquary, Qasali Pridemage and more. (Here's the relevant ruling on Shaman: 10/1/2012: Because the first ability requires a target, it is not a mana ability. It uses the stack and can be responded to.) Suppression Field is strong in combination with Elephant Grass. The drawback is that you can't afford to run fetches yourself, which weakens Mirri's Guile and Sterling Groves if you're using them as tutors. It also inhibits the Words enchantment(s) and makes you dependent on digging to Serra's Sanctum in order to be make it effectively one-sided. So you have to build the whole deck around Suppression Field in order for it to perform best, and it's ultimately not powerful enough to merit that unless you manage to always drop it Turn 2 or Turn 3. It's much weaker after the opponent has developed his or her board, and it's obviously better on the play than on the draw.

The Helm + RIP build was annoying in that it required having both pieces, both of which were counterable, and Helm couldn't be retrieved from the yard once countered, whereas any enchantment-based win con could be back-doored into play via Replenish. Rest in Peace performed OK, but I feel that Replenish is stronger overall.

Ultimately, I didn't like either variant more than the usual, so no big changes for me.

I did like Mana Bloom, which I tested after the first two experiments, and it performed decently, so I'll be running it as a one-of somewhere in my 75.

[forestfold]

Is it just me, or is the meta basically hating us right now? BUG is not an awful match-up IMO, but Jund seems terrible for us, and Elves is miserable in my experience. I'm headed to Edison this coming weekend to drive a friend down, with the added bonus of playing in a legacy tournament for the first time in 3 months, and I'm just not sure I can sleeve up my favorite deck for this... I could play any version of Enchantress (W/G/u or W/G/r or U/G or my W/G/u RIP mix) if I wanted to, I have the cards for everything. Just doesn't seem like it is a good idea. I am fairly familiar with most of the top tier decks right now, except for jund (but i've played against the modern version a lot, which seems fairly similar if just weaker overall on specific cards). Just curious about how everyone feels about the meta right now with regards to Enchantress of all types.

[ESG]

I wouldn't worry about Jund. The downside to an increased Jund presence, though, is that it leads to combo decks (mainly storm combo and SNT) moving in to prey on Jund, and that's a problem for Enchantress. Glimpse Elves is also a bad matchup. If your meta has a lot of Jund but not the combo presence, you can easily skew your list to beat it (which is the case for Enchantress against most non-combo decks). Options vs. discard: Leyline of Sanctity, Compost, Spiritual Focus, Replenish. Options vs. Abrupt Decay: Karmic Justice, Sterling Grove, Replenish. What else? I actually find Jund to be rather favorable, especially the recent Punishing Fires lists. Age-old advice: Play Enchantress if the meta is favorable or neutral; don't play the deck if the meta is hostile.

[Freggle]

Is it just me, or is the meta basically hating us right now? BUG is not an awful match-up IMO, but Jund seems terrible for us, and Elves is miserable in my experience. I'm headed to Edison this coming weekend to drive a friend down, with the added bonus of playing in a legacy tournament for the first time in 3 months, and I'm just not sure I can sleeve up my favorite deck for this... I could play any version of Enchantress (W/G/u or W/G/r or U/G or my W/G/u RIP mix) if I wanted to, I have the cards for everything. Just doesn't seem like it is a good idea. I am fairly familiar with most of the top tier decks right now, except for jund (but i've played against the modern version a lot, which seems fairly similar if just weaker overall on specific cards). Just curious about how everyone feels about the meta right now with regards to Enchantress of all types.

ESG knows what he is talking about, but I wrote this up too.

I think in this meta the cross hairs are accidently on Enchantress. With all the targeted discard, and the untargeted life loss of Deathrite Shaman, and the general permanent "hate" ( this meta has exposed a weakness in the decks engine, and the we'll call it "greed" of many (of my?) builds, having said that though, I wouldn't count the deck out as it is highly adaptable.

Whatever build you are looking to peruse I feel right now you have to include Mirri's Guile and in large numbers, and keep the overall curve of the deck low. As people have mentioned above Guile will help you dig out of heavy discard openers, and help you push through counter magic.

I prefer Mirri's Guile to Sylvan Library because a hand with a green source, and a Guile is a keep whereas a green source and no other mana and a Sylvan Library is not.

Guile also "works" under Solitary Confinement because it triggers during upkeep. Sylvan Library does not because you skip your draw phase.

Keeping the curve low will allow you to function under high disruption and limited resources. The last build I played in a tournament (a few posts up) featured Defense of the Heart. In a meta of Zoo and Maverick it was amazing, but in a meta of discard and Shamans the CC is too high and the amount that needs to go right is too much.

Redundancy, and card selection is what will push you through this meta. Below is what I believe to be the correct core for this meta.

The core (41):

19 Land
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Pressence
2 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Mirri's Guile

With the remaining (19) you have to kill and stall. I like the independent draw triggers on Abundant Growth, and Ground Seal to mitigate the effectiveness of counter spells and discard. They also synergize very well with maintaining early Solitary Confinements.

Here is a list that I have been testing quite a bit lately:

Creatures (4)
4 Argothian Enchantress

Enchantments (32)
4 Abundant Growth
4 Mirri's Guile
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Ground Seal
4 Rest in Peace
4 Solitary Confinement


Artifacts (3)
3 Helm of Obedience

Lands (19)
3 Serra's Sanctum
2 Karakas
14 Forest

Sideboard (15)
3 Seal of Primordium
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Elephant Grass
3 City of Solitude

It is really a developmental list so take it for what it is worth, but it is all about the Helm /RiP combo, therefore it is a combo deck not Combo Prison like the GWu or the traditional GWr lists. I have not had the opportunity to pilot it in an event yet, but it tests rather well. It has the normal poor MU with combo (pending the combo and speed) but is good against discard and control.


Vs. Jund (a matchup you specifically want to beat) the main is set-up well. Jund usually spend their early turns using discard or dropping Deathrite. Vs. Discard we have a number of "answers." There are the draw trigger enchantments, there are enchantress effects. You'll draw into one or a Guile. It is hard for them to meaningfully disrupt with this set-up.

If they have the creature hand it's pretty easy to combo or put up a Confinement lock. Rest in Peace all alone handles (2) of their major threats Goyf & Deathrite. Ground Seal also handles Deathrite Shaman.

Abrupt Decay usually targets Solitary Confinement but should probably be reserved for Rest in Peace. It's best to just drop Serra's Sanctum when you have (7) enchantments out or when you can hit (7) mana total. This way you can just drop both combo pieces and win almost right then and there.

Perhaps you'd like to tune a list like that?

[waSP]

Freggle:
forestfold was lamenting that the meta is shifting to more matchups that are unfavorable for him (BUG, Elves and he's not sure about Jund). ESG responded to his Jund concern very well: the deck isn't a problem, but the meta that accompanies its rise is. I would have couched your post in a more of a response like this: "I don't enjoy discard so, I'm messing around with a build that has more cantrips and runs the RiP kill because Deathrite Shaman is annoying."

But let's take apart your decklist a bit. You are devoting 7 slots to your win. Devoting 7 slots to making the kill redundant is not (necessarily) a good starting point. I think it may be some lack of experience with the deck, but it's very, very rare that you lose once you have the engine up and running. Is the Helm kill a particularly good kill for the current meta? It hits Goyfs where they live and deals with Dredge effectively. It also does some minor collateral damage to other decks. But it doesn't fix solve any even or poor matchups. Your build is going to be easy to play because you have approximately one hard decision: do I play Confinement this turn or next turn? I've no idea why you chose not to run Enlightened Tutor other than the underconsidered manabase.

A black version of the deck needs to be developed at some point to take advantage of Engineered Plague. Possibly Pernicious Deed too. There are matchups where a steady stream of removal along with some fat angels would be sufficient. I enjoy the interaction between Words of Waste and Sensei's Divining Top, but that feels like it suffers from the danger of cool things. I don't think The Abyss is ready to make its entrance in this meta, either.

[Dihensoeur]

@Freggle:
I think that have only 4 protection (Confinement) with no tutor are not a good idea. You should add at least 2 tutors.



Abrupt Decay usually targets Solitary Confinement but should probably be reserved for Rest in Peace.

Becareful : Abrupt Decay will target Solitary until opponent kill you with aggro (mainly Delver/Bloodbraid) and will keep one Abrupt Decay to response to Helm ability.

@waSP:
If you play Engineered Plague you will say "Human" in order to kill Thalia,Hierarch,Delver,Dark confidant.... but the problem is that's kill Argothian too.
I'm interesting by your list if you succeed to make a good dark enchantress list with Pernicious/Replenish.

[Freggle]

Freggle:
forestfold was lamenting that the meta is shifting to more matchups that are unfavorable for him (BUG, Elves and he's not sure about Jund). ESG responded to his Jund concern very well: the deck isn't a problem, but the meta that accompanies its rise is. I would have couched your post in a more of a response like this: "I don't enjoy discard so, I'm messing around with a build that has more cantrips and runs the RiP kill because Deathrite Shaman is annoying."

I appreciate the coaching, but the statement is not true. Some of the card choices I have made are influenced by the rise of discard, but it is mostly guided by making a "faster" combo oriented combo build. As I have prefaced, and will again this list is developmental. It is in the developmental forum. forestfold expressed interest in other enchantress variants. I shared what I am working on.

To address all the MU's listed.

The list I posted above typically combos off on turn 4-6.

BUG: Their threats are Tarmogoyf, Tombstalker, Deathrite Shaman and Clique. Most of those are checked by Rest in Peace. The two Maindeck Karakas can check Clique. The Cantrips and enchantress draw engine can trump the discard, and if the Deed pops at a high cost then we typically rebuild faster. Sandbag an enchantress effect especially under confinement.

Elves: Most decks do not have Terastodon main so Solitary Confinement will carry G1 if landed. This build (as a result of the cantripping enchantments) can sustain a T2 Solitary Confinement. Rest in Peace will check the untargeted life loss of Deathrite Shaman, but since there is really no disruption we should combo before it is an issue.



But let's take apart your decklist a bit. You are devoting 7 slots to your win. Devoting 7 slots to making the kill redundant is not (necessarily) a good starting point.

It wasn't a starting point the starting point is what is the purest core of the draw engine.



I think it may be some lack of experience with the deck, but it's very, very rare that you lose once you have the engine up and running.

That is the key. "When the engine is up and running." I'm exploring the cantripping enchantments to ensure the engine runs, and be more difficult to disrupt.


Is the Helm kill a particularly good kill for the current meta? It hits Goyfs where they live and deals with Dredge effectively. It also does some minor collateral damage to other decks. But it doesn't fix solve any even or poor matchups.

I think the Helm kill is good period. It is trumped by very little. I do not think you give Rest in Peace enough credit. It is of my opinion that if Replenish were never to be printed it would be mained in many more if not all enchantress lists.

We care very little about The aggro boons like Goyf, Tombstalker, and Nimble Mongoose because we already have good tools to fight that (though it is icing.) It is the fact that it stops a lot of combo, and problematic control elements. Life From Loam, Academy Ruins, Extripate, Surgical extraction, exiles High Tide and Chain of Vapor. Deals with zombardment, Disciple of the Vault in Afifinity. It gives us more game against reanimator, or combo in general. Most combo decks abuse the yard in some way. It is not a dead enchantment in quite a few MU's. Like Mirri's Guile it is very subtle.


Your build is going to be easy to play because you have approximately one hard decision: do I play Confinement this turn or next turn? I've no idea why you chose not to run Enlightened Tutor other than the underconsidered manabase.

It is true I kept the list as pure as I could. There are other subtle decisions you have to make, but it is not as difficult as the GWr lits.

Enlightened Tutor is card disadvantage, and not what you want when fighting control or discard. Nor when sustaining a Solitary Confinement.

As for the mana base what is underconsidered? There are 8 white enchantments. Each of which require a single white. There are 5 white sources and 8 color fixing enchantments. The mana base is sound.

There is no need to be doing damage to yourself to fetch and / or needlessly exposing yourself to bloodmoon. That is my take on it anyhow.



@Freggle:
I think that have only 4 protection (Confinement) with no tutor are not a good idea. You should add at least 2 tutors.

Every turn you should be drawing 2 or more cards. With guile you should see 3 bring the total of cards seen to 5. It is of my opinion you would have to be quite unlucky and under a lot of pressure not to find a protection piece or resolve the combo when you need to.

I started simple, and was going to add in the tutors as needed. As of now I don't feel they are needed, but let me remind everyone this is developmental.

[renna]

Hello guys, i just want to share my list. I took 3rd on a 14 players tournament.


4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
3 Mirri's Guile
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Solitary Confinement
4 Sterling Grove
4 Elephant Grass
4 Argothian Enchantress
2 Serra's Sanctum
3 Plains
7 Forest
3 Arid Mesa
1 Mountain
2 Temple Garden
3 Rest in Peace
2 Helm of Obedience
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Worship
1 Words of War
2 Karakas
SB: 2 Choke
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Aura of Silence
SB: 2 Replenish
SB: 1 Humility
SB: 1 City of Solitude
SB: 1 Blood Moon
SB: 2 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 1 Sigil of the Empty Throne



I'll write a short report because of my english and my 0 notes during the match

Esper Blade (2-0)
G1. He mulled to 5. With no counter I played my double enchantress effect + confinement forcing him to scoop
G2 (or G3 i dont remember). Anyway I played slow due to avoid daze and/or spellpierce. City of Solitude + Blood Moon granted me the time for assemble the combo (Helm+R.I.P.).

Dragon Stompy (2-0)
G1. Early Trinisphere + Magus of the Moon and Chalice slowed me to 2 life. My turn, 2 life, RIP on the board. A topdeck of the Helm milled his deck just in time to avoid the last shot.
G2. Same story, but this time his Revoker is calling Helm. A risky (and forced by a giant Taurean Mauler) confinement with only 1 argothian on board saved me from death. I discarded, played another enchantress effect and started the engine, playing another enchantress and so on. I have killed him with few shots of Words of War

Double Draw and im in Top8

BGw (2-0)
G1. A sort of Nic-Fit with Academy Rector, Worship and other old school cards. Anyway an ultra fast RIP+Helm granted me the victory also thanks to the unseen pernicious.
G2. Same story, with RIP on board veteran explorer and therapy are seriously nerfed granting me the time to dig in the deck and play the Helm.

Im in top 4.
MUD (1-2)
G1. An early lock with chalice and Lodstone Golem slowly killed me. A lucky topdeck of Serra's Sanctum allowed me to play under maximized costs (trinisphere, lodstone,...) the RIP+Helm just in time.
G2. A t1 lock killed me in few turns, punched by lodstone golem and revoker
G3. Epic match. I Play land+sprawl. He play city of traitors and grim monolith. My 2nd turn i play Serra's Sanctum and RIP. Helm in my hand. I smiled too much, my smile killed me. He played another city, another grim and after thinking few minutes...chalice at 4. I died 2 turns later sumberged by lodstone and steel hellkite. Epic handshake and left the tournamed still smiling.

Only few considerations. RIP+Helm gave the boost and the one-turn-win that was missing to this slow-combo deck, with 2 amazing cards that can save you even played alone (RIP: dredge, bug, snapcaster, reanimator, and so on. Helm: desperate uses against Sneak and Show, Reanimator, and other situational match).

Dont play this deck if you are angry or hasty or if you want to win the tournament for the glory.
When you play the enchantress be mild and gentle: only in this way you will feel the calm and protection you are seeking.

[forestfold]

Jund is not terrible, per say, but main deck thoughtseize, liliana of the veil, and abrupt decay being common is not exactly good for us. t2~3 Liliana just making us discard every turn can win about half of first games vs. enchantress, and abrupt decay will force us to find and keep a grove down to protect everything else we need. As long as you have Leyline of Sanctity, games two and three should be pretty good (I play with 3 generally, unless I know creature decks are going to be rule rather than the exception) since they have 2 maelstrom pulse at best, and no other ways to deal with it that i've seen. Most of my tournament success has been made a bit easy on me by having half of my opponents only having a vague sense of how I accomplish my lock and my kill. A complete lack of understanding as to how Karmic Justice works has helped quite a bit too.

Mostly though, I am concerned with all the broken combo decks I am expecting. If I had known I was going before last week, I'd be playing TES myself hoping to pray on all of the Elves/Jund that I am expecting, because honestly if you're slinging BUG and hoping to be at the top tables this weekend, I'm pretty sure you're just going to get crushed by Jund and hit the side events or head home. I am pretty rusty with storm decks though, and don't trust myself enough to give that a go this weekend. I am considering U/G enchantress with a SB skewed slightly towards combo (although I just realized I must have traded my words of wind away, i'm sure I can find some down there), Esper Stoneblade, or U/R counterburn.


@Freggle :
Currently, I think testing without Elephant Grass main deck is wishful thinking. Your theoretical list has zero spells after Solitary Confinement to by time, which is just not a good idea period, or a good idea based on the current meta which seems to be based around tarmogoyf and other green men of different varieties turning sideways in your face. We all know that if you have to drop a confinement too early just to save your ass, getting out of the hole you are digging is all that much harder without a draw step, unless you already have everything you need in your hand AND some chaff to toss. Enlightened Tutor is a little card disadvantage, true, but I definitely see it as being better than a third copy of the Helm. I am not a big fan of the Helm kill personally, although I do love RIP, but I can't see where you would ever want more than two Helm in your deck.


@B-splash :
I believe this was worked on by several people over the years. I vaguely recall Freyalise's Charm and Leshrac's Sigil as one of the reasons, to create an infinite draw engine. I think Mana Bloom does this better, although you cannot bounce it at will, it does serve much of that purpose for inevitability, under Solitary that is. Still not sure it is necessary though. I think all of the black anti-creature enchantments might be worth a black splash, and words of waste would be awesome against combo decks but still probably not fast enough.

[smurphy]

Well after reading basically every page on here and running enchantress off and on for the better part of 5 years now I have finally built a list I am comfortable with my playstyle and have been doing exceptionally well on MTGO with. 7-0 in the Leg 2 man tourneys since finishing it up last night. playtested for about a month in the TP room to guarantee comfort with the deck itself. Some of the choices may seem rather unorthadox but it seems to work tightly and the list itself is real tight, albeit strange. Well without further adoo heres the list.

3 Argothian Enchantress
1 Emrakul, The Eons Torn
1 Sun Titan

2 Green Sun Zenith
1 Replenish

3 Elephant Grass
4 Enchantress Presence
1 Ground Seal
2 Mirri's Guile
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Sigil The Empty Throne
2 Solitary Confinement
2 Sphere of Safety
4 Sterling Grove
4 Suppression Field
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth

1 Arbor Dryad
3 Savannah
2 Serra's Sanctum
7 Plains
7 Forest

Board

2 Aura of Silence
3 Choke
1 Ground Seal
1 Lignify
1 Nevermore
3 Rest in Piece
1 Solitary Confinement
3 Stony Silence

I know there are going to be questions and if you like I can post how the macthes were and against what to show evidence of this decks worth. Yes Sun Titan was added just to see how he works and he turned out to be one of the workhorses of the entire deck, doing as little as pulling back Groves after searching to bringing Confinements back every turn without the discard. Please test him before hating on it. Thanks for your input.

EDIT: Also I am running a heavy Suppression Field list trying to get them out as faast and as many as possible so thats the reason for not having any fetches and even a Karakas. I didnt want to get bogged down trying to maneuver through my own Fields. Rather just through them out and go to town throwing more lock parts out until concession or beatings with angel tokens, Titan, or Emmy.

[waSP]

@smurphy:
If you're not seeing a lot of targeted removal like Swords, etc., Sun Titan seems like a decent replacement/kill condition in place of Replenish #2/3.

Have you considered cutting a kill card? You're running 3 right now. Do the time constraints of MTGO enter into it?

[smurphy]

@smurphy:
If you're not seeing a lot of targeted removal like Swords, etc., Sun Titan seems like a decent replacement/kill condition in place of Replenish #2/3.

Have you considered cutting a kill card? You're running 3 right now. Do the time constraints of MTGO enter into it?

Yeah the time constraints do, It seems to go by so fast on there but otherwise I wouldnt mind cutting one. Honestly though the one I would cut would more than likely be the Sigil just because Emmy has actually saved me against Painterstone and Sun Titan is just so versatile. But I dont really want to cut one at the same time because they are all so good and Titan doesnt always go to town but is very useful as a pseudo Replenish. There is only 4 cards in the deck he can't grab. As for 2 Sphere of Safety and 2 Solitary Confinement instead of a 1/3 split is through the testing I have done I find myself tutoring (with Grove) for Sphere so much more often than SC so I upped the count to 2 and havent looked back since.

[ESG]

Why only three Argothian Enchantress? If it were legal to play eight, I would play eight.

[smurphy]

Why only three Argothian Enchantress? If it were legal to play eight, I would play eight.


In all honesty I was just testing it because of GSZ kinda made it like I was playing 5 anyhow and with my testing I am at 61 cards already even without that 1 Argothian and have never missed her. Always still get 2 draw engines online with plenty of time and I feel 2 is the right number so you dont end up over drawing and having to discard big amounts every turn ya know.

Now my question. I just lost 2 matches in a row, first was against Reanimator and second was ELVES!. I hjad Reanimator locked and it used Lab Maniac and Grisle to draw out the rest of his deck for the win and elves I was thinking maybe a Dueling Grounds would shore that one up. Opinions?

EDIT: Just looking through options and what do you think of Root Maze. Doesnt slow us too much but definately slowrolls elves like a boss.

[waSP]

A 4th Argothian Enchantress is better than a 2nd Green Sun's Zenith. No question there. You don't have an Eternal Witness or anything that would make the 2nd Zenith better. The only thing I could think of to justify that is a meta with a ridiculous amount of Spell Snare.

[Dihensoeur]

In all honesty I was just testing it because of GSZ kinda made it like I was playing 5 anyhow and with my testing I am at 61 cards already even without that 1 Argothian and have never missed her. Always still get 2 draw engines online with plenty of time and I feel 2 is the right number so you dont end up over drawing and having to discard big amounts every turn ya know.

Now my question. I just lost 2 matches in a row, first was against Reanimator and second was ELVES!. I hjad Reanimator locked and it used Lab Maniac and Grisle to draw out the rest of his deck for the win and elves I was thinking maybe a Dueling Grounds would shore that one up. Opinions?

EDIT: Just looking through options and what do you think of Root Maze. Doesnt slow us too much but definately slowrolls elves like a boss.

Root maze is not a good idea. I already tested it, it works only if you have it in start hand AND you start. Otherwise it slow us more than opponents (delver).
To fight Reanimator we have Leyline of the void.
To fight elves we have Cursed Totem (pending enchantment equivalent).

Your list is very interesting!

Have you already some trouble with figthing Goblins?

Why Sun titan is better than a second Replenish?

Why do you prefer play with graveyard instead of playing Rest in peace?

[ESG]

Smurphy, I play paper only, no MTGO, so the lists you're facing probably vary from what I've faced in the past. I haven't ever seen Reanimator running Laboratory Maniac, for instance (frankly, it seems like win-more). That said, Reanimator is traditionally a terrible matchup, while Elves depends on the version. The combo version that aims to cast Glimpse of Nature on Turn 2 or Turn 3 is a bad matchup, while an aggro-focused Elves build is quite favorable. Cursed Totem is the best hoser against Elves. I don't know why you would want Dueling Grounds. Shouldn't your Solitary Confinement, Elephant Grass and Sphere of Safety keep you safe from creature hordes? How does Root Maze do anything? It's symmetrical and doesn't hit creatures. Elves lands a mana dude and then just generates mana off that.

[Freggle]

In all honesty I was just testing it because of GSZ kinda made it like I was playing 5 anyhow and with my testing I am at 61 cards already even without that 1 Argothian and have never missed her. Always still get 2 draw engines online with plenty of time and I feel 2 is the right number so you dont end up over drawing and having to discard big amounts every turn ya know.

Now my question. I just lost 2 matches in a row, first was against Reanimator and second was ELVES!. I hjad Reanimator locked and it used Lab Maniac and Grisle to draw out the rest of his deck for the win and elves I was thinking maybe a Dueling Grounds would shore that one up. Opinions?

EDIT: Just looking through options and what do you think of Root Maze. Doesnt slow us too much but definately slowrolls elves like a boss.

To me your Reanimator match sounds like you need to test that more. If Grizzy was able to draw the rest of his deck then that means he was a a high life total, or the game had progressed to the mid game. A list running 4 Suppression Field seems to be well suited to fighting this. I have played with with 4 Elephant Grass and 4 Suppression Field and those two chek Grizzy pretty well. It sounds like there were multiple reanimations. ...if that is the case that is where Karakas can be your best friend.

Rest in Peace obviously is also very good here, but that would require you to skew your list. The best way to stop a T1 T2 Reanimation is Leyline of the Void, but it becomes a terrible top deck.

Vs. Elves you have plenty of ways to stop attacks. Which version was it that beat you?

[smurphy]

Yeah I think the reanimator was a fluke match because I had him totally locked out of the game (RIP, Confinement, and 3 Suppression Fields) while he had a hardcast Grizzy sitting around. At my EOT he Chain of Vapored my Fields and drew 14 cards, then played a Children of Korlis and gained 14 life then drew 14 more, then played another Children and a Lab Maniac and gained 28. then drew out the rest of his deck. So he didnt even animate anything.

The Elves matchup was against the speed rush version and I just didnt have a chance to set up either game was the problem. Game 2 I got a 3rd turn Sphere of Safety for 3 but he already had out so many guys and played a Cradle on his turn and destroyed me in 1 sweep.

EDIT: Oh and thinking of Root Maze and Dueling Grounds was just trying to think outside of the box in all reality. I think I will probably just go with Cursed Totem and/or Humility to battle both of those decks. After Reanimator last night I think Ill make room for Karakas too, even if it does make me dance around my own Fields.

[ESG]

Yeah I think the reanimator was a fluke match because I had him totally locked out of the game (RIP, Confinement, and 3 Suppression Fields) while he had a hardcast Grizzy sitting around. At my EOT he Chain of Vapored my Fields and drew 14 cards, then played a Children of Korlis and gained 14 life then drew 14 more, then played another Children and a Lab Maniac and gained 28. then drew out the rest of his deck. So he didnt even animate anything.

You know, you can chain back Chain of Vapor at his Griselbrand ...

But, yeah, if Reanimator is hardcasting creatures, then the game has gone to a strange place.

[smurphy]

You know, you can chain back Chain of Vapor at his Griselbrand ...

But, yeah, if Reanimator is hardcasting creatures, then the game has gone to a strange place.


Oh Im sorry I meant Echoing Truth not Chain, thats how he got all 3 at once to "go off".

[smurphy]

Ok so my list on the previous page was doing great to start with but the last few days Im not sure if online has been evolving or something but the format seems to have sped up overnight and I cant keep up. Im fairly certain its just more and more people using Abrupt Decay or something but I just cant keep up. Below is the list I think will get the speed where I need it and also keep the deck as control as possible. Below the deck I will go over options of color additions.


4 Argothian Enchantress
1 Emrakul, The Eons Torn

1 Replenish

2 Exploration
3 Elephant Grass
4 Enchantress Presence
1 Ground Seal
2 Mirri's Guile
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Sigil The Empty Throne
2 Solitary Confinement
2 Sphere of Safety
4 Sterling Grove
4 Suppression Field
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth

3 Savannah
2 Serra's Sanctum
7 Plains
8 Forest

The sideboard is ever fluctuating as usual. I have been facing alot of SnT decks which arent the issue I just mull til I see O Ring and crush there faces. I been seeing an uprise of 12post style decks and Combo. So Im thinking I may add 2 Fetches and throw in 1 Taiga and a Blood Moon to slow them to a crawl. Or even throwing in 1 Trop and 1 Back to Basics. Something along those lines ya know. Anyone see these problems lately or is it just the randomness of online?

[Freggle]

Ok so my list on the previous page was doing great to start with but the last few days Im not sure if online has been evolving or something but the format seems to have sped up overnight and I cant keep up. Im fairly certain its just more and more people using Abrupt Decay or something but I just cant keep up. Below is the list I think will get the speed where I need it and also keep the deck as control as possible. Below the deck I will go over options of color additions.


4 Argothian Enchantress
1 Emrakul, The Eons Torn

1 Replenish

2 Exploration
3 Elephant Grass
4 Enchantress Presence
1 Ground Seal
2 Mirri's Guile
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Sigil The Empty Throne
2 Solitary Confinement
2 Sphere of Safety
4 Sterling Grove
4 Suppression Field
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth

3 Savannah
2 Serra's Sanctum
7 Plains
8 Forest

The sideboard is ever fluctuating as usual. I have been facing alot of SnT decks which arent the issue I just mull til I see O Ring and crush there faces. I been seeing an uprise of 12post style decks and Combo. So Im thinking I may add 2 Fetches and throw in 1 Taiga and a Blood Moon to slow them to a crawl. Or even throwing in 1 Trop and 1 Back to Basics. Something along those lines ya know. Anyone see these problems lately or is it just the randomness of online?

I was going to mention this the other night, but then decided against it. Your loss to "Reanimator (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24104-TinFins-3-Return-of-the-Onion-Burst)" the other night could be viewed in two ways.

First and the most obvious was that our disruption was insufficient. One thing I would say to that observation is you could have not lost if you had an untapped Karakas on the battlefield. With as few decks that are running Wasteland as compared to years past, and the rise of Show and Tell decks I see little to no reason not to run at least one. I would advocate for 2. You will be happy you spent the $5 online on both.

Secondly one could observe your win was insufficient. Personally I feel your deck did a good job in getting you that late in the game, but you couldn't close it. This is the plight of Enchantress. Decks will break out of your soft locks, so you have to turn up the heat to beat those. Matches like combo, 12post, reanimator need to be closed out quickly. Enchantress is not. This is why many on here are saying this is not a good meta for the deck.


From what I can tell your lists curve seems to be a little high. Take Spatula's list on page 166 from StarCity Baltimore. That is a pretty stock list. It has a average spell CMC rate of 2.225. Your list has an average of 2.416. Most of your variance comes from running Emrakul, and doubling down on Sphere of Saftey.

You have to ask yourself are those changes make the deck better in your meta or does it add unneeded deck variance. Enchantress is a combo deck, and every card / mana matters.

One last note on your list. Exploration is a surprisingly poor performer in Enchantress. Basically because it is another combo card. (you neeed exploration + a land to be worth anything) You are already shaving lands. You would be better off with the fourth Elephant Grass or an Abundant Growth in those slots.

Side note: The list I posted a few posts up has an average spell CMC of 1.902, and can produce large amounts of mana more reliably faster (3 Serra's Sanctums It also has 8 cantripping enchantments. I want to mathematically express how good this is for the combo deck, but that is above my skill. People say playing Brainstrom is like playing a 56 card deck. I'm not sure if it is true, but if it is you could say playing with my list above it is like playing with a 52 card deck. This affects the proportions of all the other spells / effects. It could be said it plays with more theoretical enchantress's, and more theoretical ramp enchantments and 2 less stall cards based off of proportion. It's mathematically proven to be more explosive, but it it better for the meta aka are the enchantment effects of the same power level?

[Tropotos]

Seeing as I just registered for the site moments ago, I feel like I should first mention a few things before starting my post. I have been playing legacy for quite some time now and competitively since 2003. Enchantress has been my pet deck for the majority of the time with a few hiccups of Goblins, Eva Green, Pox, and for a fleeting moment some of the delver variants.

Onto the subject at hand, I have recently come back to the forums here to see a wide range of strategies aimed at improving our game plan vs fast combo decks. Fighting through combo at an event is always discouraging but I feel that disrupting our game plan for a few specific decks doesn't make as much sense as adapting the deck towards the meta overall. That might sound obvious but I will post the deck-list I won the Pax East Legacy event with in Boston a couple weekends ago.

G/W Enchantress:

Enchantress effects:
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
3 Green Sun's Zenith

Tutors/protection:
3 Sterling Grove
2 Enlightened Tutor

Win cons:
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne

Disruption/prison:
3 Elephant Grass
2 Rest in Peace
2 Solitary Confinement
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Suppression Field
1 Sphere of Safety
1 Seal of Primordium

4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
2 Mirri's Guile

Lands:
5 Forest
2 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded foothills
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Serra's Sanctum
2 Karakas
2 Savannah

SB:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Choke
1 Humility
1 City of Solitude
1 Karmic Justice
1 Rest in Peace
1 Cursed Totem
1 Suppression Field
1 Stony Silence

While nothing may look entirely new, I'd like to point out a few factors I've come to understand about my current list. RIP is strong. It is rarely ever dead and I would run it main deck even if I did not play Helm of Obedience. I really don't miss Replenish as much as I thought I would. Not as afraid of G/B decks with deathrites/goyfs and it just feels good to shut down any GY based strategy in game one. Try to think of all the cards that get shut down by this once card. Even High tide gets hurt by this card because of its reliance on time spiral. With cards like suppression field, I don't fear as many Deed or EE effects as quickly. And running only a few fetches, the suppression field is just so annoying for other decks to face against: 2 mana to jace/grislebrand/sneak attack/waste/port all hurt immensely. Emrakul may be more a Win-more card, but being able to hard cast it and use karakas to ensure nothing happens after the first swing feels pretty good. I don't feel the need to add a 3rd color, but I do like having 2 non-helm win conditions. Seal of Primoridium is a flex spot but it has been quite handy in many instances.

I am a bit curious as to what the community here thinks of the list I ran.

As much as I thought I wouldn't like Helm, with RIP in the deck it just lets us win games that are otherwise unwinnable with only 1 slot. I've had several games where I felt I was dead on board but through digging and/or enlightened tutor I end up with a combo-win.

I have to admit once more that fast combo decks (TES, ANT, Belcher, SnS, Elves) can be a nightmare. I have plenty of SB space dedicated to improving my mu vs some of those decks when I expect there will be some combo. However, If you are going to an event where you expect a huge combo environment, I just suggest sleeve-ing up a different deck. At the event I just mentioned, the tournament was approximately 85% combo (which now makes sense to me since at an event like a convention people will less likely be punished for it) For example my MU's were in round order Junk 2-0, SnS 2-0, Oops all spells 2-1, SnS 1-2, Illusionary Mask 2-1 and then 2 swiss rounds 1st vs Dredge 2-1 and finals against SnS 2-1 If I knew the meta for this event was going to be like this, I would have probably played something a little different. I fought long and hard (the event ended at about 1:30 am) with the help of a few clutch plays (I helmed SnS after a brainstrom and was able to clique them in the finals), a couple misplays by my opponents, now I have a pretty signed French Volcanic Island.

I understand a smaller scale tournament doesn't make me an expert, I have played at larger events like MTGTheSource's anniversary tournaments, Duel for Duals at Jupiter games in Vestal NY, and others. I am open to discussing card-slots and even game-plans vs. decks in general. I've been playing quite a lot lately and have tested against a large range of the current meta. Just remember you can't win vs every deck, so my main point is building towards your strong suits and avoid diluting your plan and you can still win those unfavorable games.

[JanoschEausH]

I have the feeling GWr Enchantress is almost dead in todays metagame. It's kinda sad, because it is my pet deck of choice, but Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay combined with a fast clock and discard is overwhelming. Enchantress was playable when the only threatening thing was combo. In todays meta you can't even be sure to beat the "fair" decks anymore. I think the problem is the increasing power-creep of creatures. Before Delver stepped onto the battlefield, decks attacking you with creatures were easy to beat. Today we have DRS who is able to kill you even when you arranged all components of your lock.

I'm really frustrated playing this deck. Maybe because its so less rewarding to play a 50 minutes grind to lose to decks you should normally goldfish.

[AryaStark]

I have the feeling GWr Enchantress is almost dead in todays metagame. It's kinda sad, because it is my pet deck of choice, but Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay combined with a fast clock and discard is overwhelming. Enchantress was playable when the only threatening thing was combo. In todays meta you can't even be sure to beat the "fair" decks anymore. I think the problem is the increasing power-creep of creatures. Before Delver stepped onto the battlefield, decks attacking you with creatures were easy to beat. Today we have DRS who is able to kill you even when you arranged all components of your lock.

I'm really frustrated playing this deck. Maybe because its so less rewarding to play a 50 minutes grind to lose to decks you should normally goldfish.

I have to agree, I got excited about this deck and built it since I had the Argothians, but it has performed worse and worse. I have just started learning storm and it pretty much can't lose to Enchantress. I even lose a lot with enchantress to my friends that play burn, and like what was just said, you always feel pressured for speed and have to gamble on draws and stop-gap measures just to stay alive for a little longer.

I still will keep my deck handy and when they print a one mana enchantment that is relevant against the decks weaknesses I will be ready. I vote for W/G enchantment - All spells cost at least 2 to play. Or GG enchantment - activated abilities cant be played.
:)

[Nonex]

:1::w:

Nonenchantment spells cost :1: more to cast.


Hence why I voted for white on the YMTC poll.

[Freggle]

Seeing as I just registered for the site moments ago, I feel like I should first mention a few things before starting my post. I have been playing legacy for quite some time now and competitively since 2003. Enchantress has been my pet deck for the majority of the time with a few hiccups of Goblins, Eva Green, Pox, and for a fleeting moment some of the delver variants.

Onto the subject at hand, I have recently come back to the forums here to see a wide range of strategies aimed at improving our game plan vs fast combo decks. Fighting through combo at an event is always discouraging but I feel that disrupting our game plan for a few specific decks doesn't make as much sense as adapting the deck towards the meta overall. That might sound obvious but I will post the deck-list I won the Pax East Legacy event with in Boston a couple weekends ago.

G/W Enchantress:

Enchantress effects:
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
3 Green Sun's Zenith

Tutors/protection:
3 Sterling Grove
2 Enlightened Tutor

Win cons:
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne

Disruption/prison:
3 Elephant Grass
2 Rest in Peace
2 Solitary Confinement
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Suppression Field
1 Sphere of Safety
1 Seal of Primordium

4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
2 Mirri's Guile

Lands:
5 Forest
2 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded foothills
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Serra's Sanctum
2 Karakas
2 Savannah

SB:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Choke
1 Humility
1 City of Solitude
1 Karmic Justice
1 Rest in Peace
1 Cursed Totem
1 Suppression Field
1 Stony Silence

While nothing may look entirely new, I'd like to point out a few factors I've come to understand about my current list. RIP is strong. It is rarely ever dead and I would run it main deck even if I did not play Helm of Obedience. I really don't miss Replenish as much as I thought I would. Not as afraid of G/B decks with deathrites/goyfs and it just feels good to shut down any GY based strategy in game one. Try to think of all the cards that get shut down by this once card. Even High tide gets hurt by this card because of its reliance on time spiral. With cards like suppression field, I don't fear as many Deed or EE effects as quickly. And running only a few fetches, the suppression field is just so annoying for other decks to face against: 2 mana to jace/grislebrand/sneak attack/waste/port all hurt immensely. Emrakul may be more a Win-more card, but being able to hard cast it and use karakas to ensure nothing happens after the first swing feels pretty good. I don't feel the need to add a 3rd color, but I do like having 2 non-helm win conditions. Seal of Primoridium is a flex spot but it has been quite handy in many instances.

I am a bit curious as to what the community here thinks of the list I ran.

As much as I thought I wouldn't like Helm, with RIP in the deck it just lets us win games that are otherwise unwinnable with only 1 slot. I've had several games where I felt I was dead on board but through digging and/or enlightened tutor I end up with a combo-win.

I have to admit once more that fast combo decks (TES, ANT, Belcher, SnS, Elves) can be a nightmare. I have plenty of SB space dedicated to improving my mu vs some of those decks when I expect there will be some combo. However, If you are going to an event where you expect a huge combo environment, I just suggest sleeve-ing up a different deck. At the event I just mentioned, the tournament was approximately 85% combo (which now makes sense to me since at an event like a convention people will less likely be punished for it) For example my MU's were in round order Junk 2-0, SnS 2-0, Oops all spells 2-1, SnS 1-2, Illusionary Mask 2-1 and then 2 swiss rounds 1st vs Dredge 2-1 and finals against SnS 2-1 If I knew the meta for this event was going to be like this, I would have probably played something a little different. I fought long and hard (the event ended at about 1:30 am) with the help of a few clutch plays (I helmed SnS after a brainstrom and was able to clique them in the finals), a couple misplays by my opponents, now I have a pretty signed French Volcanic Island.

I understand a smaller scale tournament doesn't make me an expert, I have played at larger events like MTGTheSource's anniversary tournaments, Duel for Duals at Jupiter games in Vestal NY, and others. I am open to discussing card-slots and even game-plans vs. decks in general. I've been playing quite a lot lately and have tested against a large range of the current meta. Just remember you can't win vs every deck, so my main point is building towards your strong suits and avoid diluting your plan and you can still win those unfavorable games.

I quite like the list, and I'm currently playing something very similar. You can seem my list here (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CDMQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wizards.com%2Fmagic%2FDigital%2FMagicOnlineTourn.aspx%3Fx%3Dmtg%2Fdigital%2Fmagiconline%2Ftourn%2F5230686&ei=zE9bUeKWGZOu2gXNgIFg&usg=AFQjCNHGTmMQnh4JZeyH5B1yAVm7W0c98g&sig2=_GpTPpXm3IFf_DE0MeaLzQ) (5th place)

There are a couple of people looking to develop the Enchantress with Rest In Peace / Helm here. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24692-Developmental-Enchantress-with-Rest-In-Peace-Helm&p=714254#post714254) You can see other tournament reports there as well.

I commonly play against BUG and Jund, and although the games are a bit of a nail bighter I do win more often than not. You are correct Rest in Peace is the real deal.

I know the list I run is a bit controversial, but I prize with it, and I can still draw lots of cards and play with Argothians so I like it. Nice finish, and keep us posted on how your list develops.

[Freggle]

:1::w:

Nonenchantment spells cost :1: more to cast.


Hence why I voted for white on the YMTC poll.

+1000

[JanoschEausH]

I quite like the list, and I'm currently playing something very similar. You can seem my list here (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CDMQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wizards.com%2Fmagic%2FDigital%2FMagicOnlineTourn.aspx%3Fx%3Dmtg%2Fdigital%2Fmagiconline%2Ftourn%2F5230686&ei=zE9bUeKWGZOu2gXNgIFg&usg=AFQjCNHGTmMQnh4JZeyH5B1yAVm7W0c98g&sig2=_GpTPpXm3IFf_DE0MeaLzQ) (5th place)

There are a couple of people looking to develop the Enchantress with Rest In Peace / Helm here. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24692-Developmental-Enchantress-with-Rest-In-Peace-Helm&p=714254#post714254) You can see other tournament reports there as well.

I commonly play against BUG and Jund, and although the games are a bit of a nail bighter I do win more often than not. You are correct Rest in Peace is the real deal.

I know the list I run is a bit controversial, but I prize with it, and I can still draw lots of cards and play with Argothians so I like it. Nice finish, and keep us posted on how your list develops.

Hey Freggle, your list looks really strong and fun to play! I've tested it a couple times and it gains alot of strenght from the combo-kill. I have a few questions:

How do you handle Pithing Needle as a common SB card?

How do you sideboard against the big decks? (Midrange (mostly Jund), Storm, SnT, Tempo)

[Freggle]

Hey Freggle, your list looks really strong and fun to play! I've tested it a couple times and it gains alot of strenght from the combo-kill. I have a few questions:

How do you handle Pithing Needle as a common SB card?

How do you sideboard against the big decks? (Midrange (mostly Jund), Storm, SnT, Tempo)

Hmm, Pithing Needle. It was the last card added to the board, and I have never casted it, and I'm not sure it is correct. I had moved an Elephant Grass main and a spot became free. I decided to test Needle because I had sucess with it in the past and I wanted something easy to deal with Liliana of the Veil. It will probably be one more thing that eats an Abrupt Decay but they only run 4, and we are paying less mana so it's a gain.

Siding for:

Jund: I used to bring in Leyline of Sanctity but that can leave you with a crappy hand and goyf and bob can get you. It can also leave you with clanky Leylines you can't cast under their pressure. So now I just go straight up +2 Elephant Grass +1 Pithing Needle [sometimes +1-2 Oblivion Ring] | -1 Seal of Primordium -1 Helm of Obedience -1 to 2 Solitary Confinement (it is hard to keep it up under Liliana) [sometimes -1 Wild Growth]

Storm: Speed and Shroud is what we need. -1 Solitary Confinement -1 Seal of Primordium -1 Wild Growth, -1 Helm of Obedience | +4 Leyline of Sanctity [sometimes +1 Elephant Grass for something Abundant or Wild Growth Usually]

SnT: It's all about the Oblivion Rings | -4 Solitary Confinement -1 Abundant Growth -1 Wild Growth | +4 Oblivion Ring +1 Enlightened Tutor +1 Pithing Needle

Tempo The deck is set-up to beat control. So there is very little change. | -1 Solitary Confinement -1 Abundant Growth -1 Seal of Primordium | +2 Elephant Grass +1 [sometimes Oblivion Ring]

In general when I don't know the hate I make (2) cuts and bring in (2) Oblivion Rings

[Freggle]

Hmm, Pithing Needle. It was the last card added to the board, and I have never casted it, and I'm not sure it is correct. I had moved an Elephant Grass main and a spot became free. I decided to test Needle because I had sucess with it in the past and I wanted something easy to deal with Liliana of the Veil. It will probably be one more thing that eats an Abrupt Decay but they only run 4, and we are paying less mana so it's a gain.

Siding for:

Jund: I used to bring in Leyline of Sanctity but that can leave you with a crappy hand and goyf and bob can get you. It can also leave you with clanky Leylines you can't cast under their pressure. So now I just go straight up +2 Elephant Grass +1 Pithing Needle [sometimes +1-2 Oblivion Ring] | -1 Seal of Primordium -1 Helm of Obedience -1 to 2 Solitary Confinement (it is hard to keep it up under Liliana) [sometimes -1 Wild Growth]

Storm: Speed and Shroud is what we need. -1 Solitary Confinement -1 Seal of Primordium -1 Wild Growth, -1 Helm of Obedience | +4 Leyline of Sanctity [sometimes +1 Elephant Grass for something Abundant or Wild Growth Usually]

SnT: It's all about the Oblivion Rings | -4 Solitary Confinement -1 Abundant Growth -1 Wild Growth | +4 Oblivion Ring +1 Enlightened Tutor +1 Pithing Needle

Tempo The deck is set-up to beat control. So there is very little change. | -1 Solitary Confinement -1 Abundant Growth -1 Seal of Primordium | +2 Elephant Grass +1 [sometimes Oblivion Ring]

In general when I don't know the hate I make (2) cuts and bring in (2) Oblivion Rings


Edit: oops, I just understood your question. What do I do against an opponents Pithing Needle. The answer Oblivion Ring, Seal of Primordium, or Sigil of the Empty Throne

[Just me]

Hi all,

Finally got to play a tournament again. I used RIP + Helm as main win condition.

4 Enchantress
4 Presence
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 sterling Grove
3 Solitary Confinement
4 Elephant Grass
2 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Rest in Peace
1 Helm of Obedience
2 Elvish Spirit Guide
2 Mirri's Guile
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Enl. Tutor
1 Sphere of Resistance
6 Forest
2 Plains
2 Serra's Sanctuum
1 Karakas
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
1 Dryad Arbor

rnd 1 vs Jund
Lost 0-2 without a real game. First game I got way too much lands and second game the CA he got from 3 BBE was too much. Also, this deck runs so much disruption with discard, liliana (sac enchantress), and Abrupt deacy that it's just a bad matchup imo.

rnd 2 vs combo elves (Mono G)
Weird first game, she is flooded, I don't get a 3rd land despite Mirri's Guile and an Enchantress. I set things up such that I can Helm FTW next turn. She uses it for Emrakul and I have 4 permanents I can sac without loosing the 5 mana I need for the win next turn. So I loose... The other game I mull to 5 and loose (she went pretty nuts t2 as well).

rnd 3 vs U/G Food Chain
No idea what this deck does. First game, I loose vs random beatdown with a 3/3 flier and 4/4 flier. Next game I look pretty hot thanks to a Carpet of flowers. He get's unwell (very hot in the room, low oxygen) and scoops.

rnd 4 vs Storm
First game he is pretty slow, I go for a quick lock with a draw-effect out and 1 in hand. He scoops to confinement. Lucky, since I needed to TD an enchantment (with Guile and 1 on the stack, still... He should have played it out). Next game, 20 goblins kill me pretty dead. Last game, I have a great start. But he breaks the lock with Abrupt Decay, combo's in his turn but misses a black mana for tendrils so opt for 20 Goblins again. Next turn, I do lots of stuff, but mainly Confinement + Grove against his empty hand and 20 Goblins. So that's a win with RIP and Helm afterwards.

rnd 5 vs Show and Tell + Dreamhalls
Show and Tell into Progenitus = game on turn 2. Second game, I Nevermore for Dreamhalls and win from there. Last game, I gamble a bit with my hand, 1 Forest, 1 Carpet, 2 Arg. Ench. and Runed Halo. I never draw another land... His first Show and Tell for Progenitus is met by my Runed Halo, which shook him up quite bit. I had the Never as well, to take the Dream Halls out the game before it ever resolves. However, he never played a second Island for me to use an I never drew that needed second land (white source needed after 2 turns of missing). So dream Halls into False Cure + Beacon of Immortality. Sigh...

Conclusions
I mulled a lot, part of the deck I guess, but deadly.
Carpet of Flowers is great.
The deck is to slow in a combo / discard happy environment.
But I did beat Storm!!! (his misplay and a sick opponent are my wins, what does that tell you...?)

[Tropotos]

Hello again Enchantress players. I am here with good news. I just made another top 8 last weekend at the NELC Duel for Duals in Vestal NY. This makes two in a row. 1st place win at PAX east and 8th in Vestal NY.

With some testing I decided to leave my list as is. I expected many blue decks and contemplated a MD choke, but decided against it.

Round 1 I played against Rion Marmulstein with his Maverick deck. He was on the play and started strong with the usual suite of heirarch's and cheap beaters quickly bringing my life total down to 10 before I surprise him out of no where with RIP/Helm turn 5. early on he calls a judge because I almost miss an enchantress trigger off of Oblivion Ring but fortunately for me the judge ruled in my favor. I believe in all fairness I was gifted that ruling when I shouldn't have. It is rare that I miss a trigger and for my first game of the day I felt like it was pretty sloppy. I made a conscious effort to announce every trigger every time and wait for any kind or response even if I was fairly certain my opponent couldn't interact. (RIP Helm gets there in otherwise un-winnable games) In Game 2 I SB in an extra suppression field, a cursed totem, and a karmic justice. He starts with Leyline of Sanctity in play. Cursed totem on turn 2 shuts him down early with an early gsz for dryad arbor (to which he calls the judge for a ruling asking if it stopped its mana ability) on his field in combination with suppression field he slows to a near halt while I cast an emrakul through his teag. My friends tease me after for seeing the judge run over to my table 3+ times in this match. (Rion makes it to Top 8)

Round 2 against Bryan Marceski with Show and Tell: I play an early suppression field keeping him off of his fetchlands and slowing him down enough for an early Helm kill. Round 2 in comes Humility, all my blue hate, cursed totem, and suppression field. He goes for a turn 2 show and tell and I almost decided to put down oblivion ring, but opt for Humility instead. My hand was a snap keep with 2 enchantress effects, humility o-ring 2 lands and a utopia sprawl. Helm kill soon follows as his 1/1 grislebrand can't attack through my 1/1 enchantress.

Round 3 Sam Sam Roukas Esper Stoneforge
Unfortunately game one I have to mulligan to 5 (both hand were landless or only 1 white mana) and it wasn't a very good hand either but decide to keep it. I get tempo'd out with discard and counter magic. Round 2 in comes the blue hate suite (carpet of flowers, choke, city of solitude and karmic justice for fear of EE) I resolve 2 separate carpet of flowers and bait some "must counter" spells and proceed to helm kill early. G3 I have to mulligan again, resolve Carpet, but my enchantress's presence gets forced, next turn city of solitude gets counter-spelled and his Geist out of the SB proceeds to clock me quickly. This MU I feel is typically in my favor, but I believe poor hands on my part and no business results in a loss here. At this point in the tournament I am seated 3rd and the decks ahead at tables 1 and 2 are TES, Dredge, and some other unsavory hulk decks I feel OK going down into the x-1 bracket. He seems sorry for my tough breaks and we wish each-other luck and I tell him I hope to see him in the top 8 (I believe he comes out top place finish)

Round 4 Ralph (Last name unknown) with Maverick 4c? Seemed like 4 color rites but maverick.. G1 he mulls to 6 and I keep. I land an early suppression field slowing all of his plays while I set up my engine an d kill him with Sigil. I get down to about 11 life before the 4/4's fly over for the kill but only after having to fight through and Aven Mindcensor making my tutor effects very limited although my GSZ did end up finding an enchantress 3 cards down, how lucky. Same sideboard plan. I keep, and manage to land another turn 2 cursed totem shutting down more than 50% of his deck. A RIP shuts down the other half. After beats down to 11 life again I find helm and activate for the win. Suppression field has been superb all day. Ralph admits to me that he doesn't play much legacy and is borrowing a friends deck for the day.

Round 5 vs Phillip Cassidy U/R Delver G1 I mostly see basic islands for the first two turns making me on edge since I believe he is playing High Tide with some brainstorms and ponders. Eventually he gets a volc, and plays delver. With a slower clock and late start I win the game with 20+ enchantments on the field. G2 I bring in the blue hate + city of solitude. He plays with a very aggressive hand and a nivmagus elemental. I have a carpet of flowers and being "flustered" through his cantriped 7/7 I forget to name my carpet of flowers trigger which would have let me fight through the spell pierce he had for my oblivion ring. G3 I have the standard snap-keep hand while he is stuck on two lands and gets the angel beats.

Round 6 Michael Keller with Manaless Dredge. He is on the draw and pitches his first dredger. I have no plays except for basic forests the first two turns but he isn't exceptionally fast either. his turn 2 he cabal therapies me for enchantresses presence and with no knowledge other than scouting makes an informed play and I have no enchantress effect for a few turns. I eventually land a confinement and keep it up, he can't win. Game 2 I bring in another RIP and a cursed totem for his dryad arbor's knowing he's bring in nature's claims and I can't remember if I brought in anything else relevant, possibly a couple Leylines. I land a turn 2 RIP which he claims. Knowing he had played fetches and got 2 dryad arbors I knew he wasn't a fast dredge game anymore and waited to keep my cursed totem for turn 3. He fetches out all 4 of his dryad arbors and keeps swinging while I have very little gas. He eventually revered silences my confinement and permanents away but I quickly RIP/Helm him the turn after. His Dryad arbors got in there for 17, and I fetched 3 times, however his spells gained me 10 life thankfully. We extend courtesies after the game and was very pleasant to talk to. I figure out shortly he knows many of the players here and is a swell guy.

Round 7 pairings are up and I am seated 5th place top 3 have 16 pts and I have 15. I go over tie-breakers and do a little math and with a 60.5% OMW and 78.6% GW% I feel very confident I will make it into top 8 by splitting. I had no idea what my opponent was playing and I felt like the gamble of playing the game would be greater than playing the split. My opponent Douglas Mckay sat lower than me in %'s but after about 6 minutes decides to go along with it as well. We both make it into the top 8, however I end up seated 8th and him 5th. END swiss

Round 1 of top 8 I'm playing Royce Walter with TES, we look at the deck-lists and I answer his questions about certain cards like karmic justice, suppression field and a few other less seen enchantments. He asks if I have any questions but I know the deck pretty well having played Bryant Cook in a previous NELC (he wrote a tournament report featuring this match back in December seen here in round 3: http://jupitergames.info/articles/2012/52589/cooks-kitchen-storming-to-jupiter-pt-vii-nelc-12152012 ). He goes off on turn 2 or 3 successfully with Tendrils knowing its his only way to win since elephant grass would be a blowout. G2 I bring in leylines and stony silence for his LED's and petals, I have to mulligan to 5 not seeing any leylines. This hand has 2 lands 2 enchantresses and a cantrip, so I have to hope he fizzles. Mulling to 4 in hopes of leyline while he plays chain of vapor seems illogical. This time through what seemed like a difficult ponder he still manages to go off turn 2 which by how he played seemed like he would be stretching. He resolves Ad Nauseum and goes to 1, contemplates for about 30 seconds and stays at 1. He can easily count to 10, with enough mana to cast a chain of vapor.

Not knowing what might have happened playing out round 7 I could have easily placed higher, but I am still happy with the outcome. I think close to 90 people showed this month and top 8 with Enchantress felt really good. It has been my pet deck for a long time and with the fast combo with RIP + Helm it is well suited to place. Like a lot of decks it has a poor match-up vs fast combo which we all know but they aren't unwinnable. RIP is not dead here, Leylines are still quite strong. All day at this point I had really enjoyed chatting with my opponents before and after the games, I think many people were surprised to see enchantress, and it winning. I got a few compliments on the deck and my matches had a fair amount of spectators. A few even went as far as to tell me I was probably the most skilled enchantress players they've seen which inflated my ego a little more. Aside from a sloppy play or two I believe I made close to no errors and as a result placed in the top 8. I promise this deck is not dead.

Pros: Suppression Field, Cursed Totem, t2 Humility through SnT Seeing people excited to look at my list post tournement.
Cons: mulligans, Never drawing Leyline when you need it.
Hilarious: Taking 17 dmg from Dryad Arbor in 1 game.

Until next time..

[Opax]

Hello guys, I'm a follower of this thread and a I've played this deck for almost 5 years.

In the last 2 years, with my list I've made 2 top 8 in small tournament and 2 top 16 in 2 big tournaments( >150 ppl.).

Sincerely, I'm not a good player, sadly I've lost a lot of matches due to mistakes. A big problem of mine is that I'm not a metagamer, so, almost all the time, I've terrible sideboarding options.

By the way, I've not modified my maindeck list for 2 years. After a post from Spatula, I said to myself: give it a try. I took his list (heavily combo oriented), made some changes, brought it to a 167 ppl tournament, made top 16, and from there I never came back.

So my list is:

7 Forest
1 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Taiga
2 Serra's Sanctum
4 Windswept Heath
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Karakas

4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
2 Green Sun's Zenith

4 Sterling Grove
4 Mirri's Guile

4 Elephant Grass
3 Solitary Confinement

4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth

3 Ground Seal
1 Seal of Primordium

2 Replenish

1 Words of War
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne

Starting the analisys from the begining:


I play 19 lands since I'm not playing exploration and I'm playing 8 growth, so it's enough IMHO. I play very few white sources cause the deck doesn't have any WW cost maindeck, and in my opening hand I always want to see a green source.
10 enchantress effect. I tested 3-4 zenith but there was too redundancy. I put the 3rd of in sideboard for the miracle match-up.
4 grove are a standard. 4 mirri are a bomb. I tested 2 or 3 of for a lot of time, but I will never come back. Mirri is a strong start vs blue and black based deck. I play 12 shuffling effects, therefor almost always in the starting turn of the game I can look at 3 fresh cards. Yes, multiple copy don't do anything spectacular, but since I take a lot of mulligan, mirri let me keep hands with color or mana screw .
4 grass and 3 confinement, is standard. The same for 8 growth.
3 ground seal. Its a very strong card. Drawing 1 more card when you have few enchantress effect on play is very powerful. I started to play them when surgical was printed. But every metagame change they become more powerful ( surgical, ooze, snapcaster, shaman and of course the old cards it blocks like EE and volrath recursion, witness, loam and so on). And you can do very funny tricks with grove seal of primordium and replenish. Lastly, since I play zenith, I play 2 less enchantment ( 35-->33) and playing 3 of seals allow me to mantain a deadly confinement more easily.
1 Seal of primordium as the only removal since I can use it up to 3 times with replenish, and there is nothing that cannot be removed by seal or WoW.
2 replenish: this is the reason why I don't play Rest in Peace combo. I cannot imagine an enchantress deck without this card. Sideborading them out is always wrong. Probably RiP combo works well, but I think replenish gives use recursion and redudancy that we need. Almost every time you resolve a replenish it's game-breaking, for 2 grass, for 1 enchantment, for 1 groove, always.
WoW and Sigil as maindeck wincon. Really WoW is the only real wincon of this deck, sigil is more a most counter back-up. Usually if I'm winning the 1st game I try to end it with sigil and not showing my opponent WoW. And of course WoW is the best way to not deck yourself.


About Sideboard, I'm posting the list I brought to GP Strasbourgh:

SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 2 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 1 Moat
SB: 2 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Humility
SB: 1 Green Sun's Zenith
SB: 1 Pithing needle
SB: 1 Choke
SB: 1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
SB: 1 Karmic justice (→ 1 Stony silence)

Leyline I side 1x vs jace deck, 2x vs black splashed deck, 3x vs black based deck and esperblade and 4x vs combo.
Carpets is 1x vs blue based deck for 1 growth, 2x vs blue tempo deck for something else.
Moat and Humiliy for elves, maverick and heavy aggro decks.
1 zenith for miracle, as they reshuffle your enchantress instead of properly removing them.
1 choke, 1 emrakul for heavy control decks,
1 needle and karmic for deed and other removals.
NO oblivion ring. Sincerely I don't miss it.

About playing strategies: I usually take several mulligans. I try to reach 2 enchantress effects in my hand, or 1 effect alongside mirri or grove. Trust me a hand with 2 lands 1 mirri and 1 arghotian is more powerful than an hand with 4-5 enchantments and only one businness card.

In the end, sadly I didn't play a lot lately, so I never manage to find a good setting for the big tournaments. I love this deck and sincerely this list is the strongest I've tried.

Please, if you are reading this post, and you think you are a good enchantress' player, give a try to this list, trust me you will not come back.

Thank you all for your time.
Sorry for a such long post and for my bad english.

Opax

[JanoschEausH]

About Sideboard, I'm posting the list I brought to GP Strasbourgh:



I abandoned the deck not long ago, but i would like to hear how Straßbourg went for you?

[Opax]

I abandoned the deck not long ago, but i would like to hear how Straßbourg went for you?

Jund 2-0 --> 1-0
Jund 2-0 --> 2-0
ANT 1-2 --> 2-1 I kept in the third match on the play with leyline, enlightened, sprawl, grove, grove, never saw a land
painter 0-2 --> 2-2 I forgot to side in emrakul -.-
UW miracle 2-0--> 3-2
Canadian 2-0 --> 4-2
bant 1-2--> 4-3 drop. I won easily the 1st, he accused me of cheating, I lost control, and he easily beat me the other 2 game since I lost my mind.

With more playtesting and a better tuned sideboard I could have done better. I made day 2 @Madrid with a much less favorable meta.

[ESG]

bant 1-2--> 4-3 drop. I won easily the 1st, he accused me of cheating, I lost control, and he easily beat me the other 2 game since I lost my mind.

What was the disagreement over?

[Opax]

What was the disagreement over?

I got a good engine on, but no lock with a deadly geist on the table. I made 2-3 minutes turn comboing on, then I play a serra sanctum as land. He said that was my second land I've played this turn. We have 1-2 minute discussion then I give up, with the mana left I casted a replenish for a confinement and some grove and pass. He concede we went to the 2nd. Quite every turn he ask me to be fast and I made some mistake. He saw a lot of removal both the game 2 and 3. I sincerly wrong. I had to call the judge and ask him to look at our game, cause I was playing very fast and the guys was simply trash-talking me. Very sad thing, the match-up was very easy. Probably if I didn't loose control another 2-0 was coming.

[Tropotos]

Quite every turn he ask me to be fast and I made some mistake. He saw a lot of removal both the game 2 and 3. I sincerly wrong. I had to call the judge and ask him to look at our game, cause I was playing very fast and the guys was simply trash-talking me. Very sad thing, the match-up was very easy. Probably if I didn't loose control another 2-0 was coming.

It is hard to keep your calm in stressful situations for sure. During a game with extra pressure nice call to ask a judge to come over a if you believe your opponent is heckling you. Enough trash talk may be considered harassment and you may be able to use his own strategy against him in the mind game department. At the very least you can present your information to the judge and they will be aware of your situation. Most likely just for the quick discussion you will be awarded some extra time at the end of the round. This will at least give you a moment to collect yourself and get your head back in the game. People don't like playing against prison, and they will employ anything to try to disrupt your focus. Don't let them play mind games. Stand up for yourself and state that you may have some choices to make and you will take your time, but also do your best to play as quickly as you see fit.

[JanoschEausH]

Jund 2-0 --> 1-0
Jund 2-0 --> 2-0
ANT 1-2 --> 2-1 I kept in the third match on the play with leyline, enlightened, sprawl, grove, grove, never saw a land
painter 0-2 --> 2-2 I forgot to side in emrakul -.-
UW miracle 2-0--> 3-2
Canadian 2-0 --> 4-2
bant 1-2--> 4-3 drop. I won easily the 1st, he accused me of cheating, I lost control, and he easily beat me the other 2 game since I lost my mind.

With more playtesting and a better tuned sideboard I could have done better. I made day 2 @Madrid with a much less favorable meta.

While considering your maindeck and sideboard i assume that playing against Show and Tell is basically a defloss for you, right? (No interaction besides Karakas maindeck)

[JanoschEausH]

I have a question for Tropotos: I would like to know what you board out, when you are boarding against several archetypes. Do you ever board out the helm combo?
What are your sideboard plans against Jund, Storm, SnT and Graveyard based decks? Or against the blue decks?
Would you switch Growths-Effects for Carpets?

I am really interested in this because i think effective sideboarding is really important in this deck and i'm curious how other players make space in their deck.

[Opax]

While considering your maindeck and sideboard i assume that playing against Show and Tell is basically a defloss for you, right? (No interaction besides Karakas maindeck)

On the1st match my best answer is to put into play more permanent I can. Vs a turn 2-3 show and tell is hard. Vs Sneak is a little more playable as I can remove it and slow his creature with grass. The other matches I usually side in: +2 Enlightened Tutor, + 1 Humility, + 1 Pithing needle, + 1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn for -1 Green Sun's Zenith, -2 Ground Seal, -1 Sigil of the Empty Throne, - 1 Wild Growth.
It's not really a good match-up. But if you are asking me if I pay the lack of the O-Ring in my deck, the answer is no.
With a Sneak&Show flooded meta, I think I'll change my sideboard adding +1 Sacred Ground ( to fake the annhilitaor trigger ), +1 Crop Rotation ( to dig for Karakas), +1 Runed Haloo (calling Emrakul, for avoiding combat damage without the card disadvantage of solitay confinement).

Hoping you will find my answer exhaustive.
Opax

[Dihensoeur]

The best weapon VS Show and Tell : Oblivion Ring
The best weapon VS Sneak Attack / Through the breach : Blind Obedience (work for Elves too)
Otherwise, there are Pithing needle for Sneak (but not for Through the breach), Humility, Karakas, Helm of Obedience (to instant kill or to get an Emrakul) for Show.

Elephant Grass / Suppression Field allow us to gain only one turn vs sneak but not really more.

[Tropotos]

I have a question for Tropotos: I would like to know what you board out, when you are boarding against several archetypes. Do you ever board out the helm combo?
What are your sideboard plans against Jund, Storm, SnT and Graveyard based decks? Or against the blue decks?
Would you switch Growths-Effects for Carpets?

I am really interested in this because i think effective sideboarding is really important in this deck and i'm curious how other players make space in their deck.

Against Jund I would side in karmic justice and suppression field and depending on how discard/burn heavy I might side in any amount of leylines (especially vs liliana) I could see myself siding out a single sterling grove and seal of primordium. If I need more, or on the draw I might side out mirri's guile (also draw/play dependant) unless I feel threatened by their hand disruption and need to dig for answers. suppression field, RIP, hurt them a lot. They are still an aggro-based deck at heart so elephant grass slows them down and it is very hard for them to win through a sphere of safety.

Storm is hard to deal with for many decks. I don't really clog up my sb to try to beat it. I have leylines which can cause some trouble and we have some pretty decent answers main if we can slow them down enough. Elephant grass is great against goblins but experienced players and those that can see your list (such as in the top x) will know they have to win with tendril's or another way safely. In 4 leylines, stoney silence (Shuts down LED & petals) other cards can help but you don't want to dilute your problem too much. Speed is key here. cut mirri's guile since they are going off turns 1-3. O-ring is also a safe cut I may even side out a win con like emrakul or a sphere of safety. RIP is still not dead here since many versions will require a past in flames.

SnT has been pretty favorable to me lately. It is still a boogeyman in the closet but we have tons of things to SnT in like o-ring, confinement, sphere of safety, our own emrakul, karakas and so on. I've had a RIP in play and put helm in for a win before. Supression field is great here too. makes it much harder with all their fetches, griselbears, and sneak attacks. In Cursed totem, Humility, Carpet of flowers x 3, choke, supression field, dont be fooled about city of solitude this makes it so you cannot Karakas their threats. Out, Wild Growth x 4, sterling grove x 1, RIP x 1, and if they aren't running omniscience you may take out seal, or even a guile. Like in storm we need to fill our hand with answers to show and tell early. It may sound like I side out guile a lot, but in certain instances you need the answers now and not have the card selection in a long grindy session vs control. While SnT is searching for more gas, you're setting up a giant pillow fort that emrakul cant even attack you if he wanted to. I've tuned my list so I naturally have a good MU without hurting my other MU.

GY based decks I love me some supression fields, extra RIP, and Cursed totems (if they run Dryad arbor) depending on the match-up like dredge or oops all spells RIP is pretty key here. Sometimes they require more activations and thus field is good. Most dredge decks don't have a quick clock vs you especially if you have elephant grass. Once again, speed is key in getting out a RIP. In RIP x 1, the rest is dependant on who's on the play and especially what deck you're up against. Each variant has its own little nuances that must be considered. O-ring is mostly dead here, it is a safe cut, as is seal of primordium.

If you have more questions or comments about these, I'd be happy to address them. Let me know if I was thorough enough. I would like to address how much i like suppression field in this deck. Spots are tight, but I would love to run 2. Carpet of flowers always replace the Wild Growths.

[Tropotos]

The best weapon VS Show and Tell : Oblivion Ring
The best weapon VS Sneak Attack / Through the breach : Blind Obedience (work for Elves too)
Otherwise, there are Pithing needle for Sneak (but not for Through the breach), Humility, Karakas, Helm of Obedience (to instant kill or to get an Emrakul) for Show.

Elephant Grass / Suppression Field allow us to gain only one turn vs sneak but not really more.

In the finals at Pax East this year I played against Sneak and show. In Game 3, my opponent brainstorms looking for gas and thinks out loud "why can't I have all these cards in my hand?" Finishes his brainstorm, has sneak attack out but I have an open karakas. He passes, I tap karakas and activate helm for 1. He rolls his eyes and reads helm. I flip clique and proceed to clique his emrakul. I cast my own emrakul 2 turns later. Feels good. TBH it was close to 1am the tourney didn't start til 5pm. I think we all wanted to go home too.

[JanoschEausH]

Against Jund I would side in karmic justice and suppression field and depending on how discard/burn heavy I might side in any amount of leylines (especially vs liliana) I could see myself siding out a single sterling grove and seal of primordium. If I need more, or on the draw I might side out mirri's guile (also draw/play dependant) unless I feel threatened by their hand disruption and need to dig for answers. suppression field, RIP, hurt them a lot. They are still an aggro-based deck at heart so elephant grass slows them down and it is very hard for them to win through a sphere of safety.

Storm is hard to deal with for many decks. I don't really clog up my sb to try to beat it. I have leylines which can cause some trouble and we have some pretty decent answers main if we can slow them down enough. Elephant grass is great against goblins but experienced players and those that can see your list (such as in the top x) will know they have to win with tendril's or another way safely. In 4 leylines, stoney silence (Shuts down LED & petals) other cards can help but you don't want to dilute your problem too much. Speed is key here. cut mirri's guile since they are going off turns 1-3. O-ring is also a safe cut I may even side out a win con like emrakul or a sphere of safety. RIP is still not dead here since many versions will require a past in flames.

SnT has been pretty favorable to me lately. It is still a boogeyman in the closet but we have tons of things to SnT in like o-ring, confinement, sphere of safety, our own emrakul, karakas and so on. I've had a RIP in play and put helm in for a win before. Supression field is great here too. makes it much harder with all their fetches, griselbears, and sneak attacks. In Cursed totem, Humility, Carpet of flowers x 3, choke, supression field, dont be fooled about city of solitude this makes it so you cannot Karakas their threats. Out, Wild Growth x 4, sterling grove x 1, RIP x 1, and if they aren't running omniscience you may take out seal, or even a guile. Like in storm we need to fill our hand with answers to show and tell early. It may sound like I side out guile a lot, but in certain instances you need the answers now and not have the card selection in a long grindy session vs control. While SnT is searching for more gas, you're setting up a giant pillow fort that emrakul cant even attack you if he wanted to. I've tuned my list so I naturally have a good MU without hurting my other MU.

GY based decks I love me some supression fields, extra RIP, and Cursed totems (if they run Dryad arbor) depending on the match-up like dredge or oops all spells RIP is pretty key here. Sometimes they require more activations and thus field is good. Most dredge decks don't have a quick clock vs you especially if you have elephant grass. Once again, speed is key in getting out a RIP. In RIP x 1, the rest is dependant on who's on the play and especially what deck you're up against. Each variant has its own little nuances that must be considered. O-ring is mostly dead here, it is a safe cut, as is seal of primordium.

If you have more questions or comments about these, I'd be happy to address them. Let me know if I was thorough enough. I would like to address how much i like suppression field in this deck. Spots are tight, but I would love to run 2. Carpet of flowers always replace the Wild Growths.

Thank you really much for your detailed aswer! Your sideboard plans make all sense to me. Way in the past i was frequently boarding out Solitary Confinements against Show and Tell, since it won't stop Annihilator from Emrakul. What do you think about that?

[Tropotos]

Thank you really much for your detailed aswer! Your sideboard plans make all sense to me. Way in the past i was frequently boarding out Solitary Confinements against Show and Tell, since it won't stop Annihilator from Emrakul. What do you think about that?

So, they still swing with grislebees often. If you feel like cuts are hard then feel free. Sometimes you can still win through an annihilater trigger.

[Tammit67]

Went 4-2 at a local event today, missing top 8 because higher seeds unintentionally drew round 5 and both won round 6 to make the top 8 cut a clean cut at 13 points or better. Serra's sanctum is very good with new rules. I'm really surprised there has be nothing in this thread since May!

List was fairly standard, losses were to AnT and Omnihalls and both felt very bad. Everything else I feel I had an advantage over

[Freggle]

I'm really surprised there has be nothing in this thread since May!

Nice Job! I still bump the deck, but it's a fairly hostile environment right now so many have moved on to other things for the moment.

[honz]

I took the following list to a top8 at a local tournament last weekend:

4 enchantress' presence
4 argothian enchantress
1 green sun's zenith
1 mirri's guile
1 ancestral knowledge

4 elephant grass
4 sterling grove
2 energy field
2 rest in peace
2 suppression field
1 back to basics
1 oblivion ring
1 solitary confinement
1 sphere of safety

1 sigil of the empty throne
1 opalescence
1 words of wind

4 utopia sprawl
4 wild growth
7 forest
2 plains
2 savanah
1 tropical island
3 serra's sanctum
4 windswept heath
1 dryad arbor

Sideboard:
2 rest in peace
2 replenish
2 choke
1 suppression field
1 back to basics
1 in the eye of chaos
1 karmic justice
1 detention sphere
4 leyline of sanctity

Ill try to explain some of the card choices:
Rest in peace - This card is just too good against the best deck in the format right now (delver) and one of our terrible match-ups (reanimator) to not play at least 2. RIP's one major downfall is that you can't run replenish. Instead I put replenish in the board, intending to swap RIP for replenish when appropriate. An awesome side-effect of running RIP is that energy field suddenly gets a lot better.

Suppression field - Aside from being good against janky decks and planeswalkers, this tends to slow down tempo/aggro control based decks; be it aether vial or fetchlands or stoneforge mystic or quirion ranger. Since these decks are very strong right now (delver, death and taxes, maverick, elves, merfolk), slowing them down is crucial towards being able to establish your board.

Energy Field - As i said, RIP makes this card pretty amazing. Not to mention suppression field means you don't want to play many fetchlands, and you're entire deck is permanents that usually have shroud from sterling grove. Also, i expected young pyromancer burn to be popular in the meta.

Ancestral knowledge - I usually run 2 mirri's guile, but since I already have a lot of blue I figured i would try out ancestral as a 1-1 split with guile. It digs incredibly deep, and i generally exile all but 1-3 cards so the cumulative upkeep is minimal. Guile also gets worse as you start running less fetchlands.

Words of wind - I hate not having some way to prevent from decking myself, at least in game 1 when people usually ask you to play the game out to completion. Generally this will get boarded out, specifically if my opponent scoops to solitary + enchantress, or energy field + RIP. However, if you have 1 enchantress + 2x wild growth or utopia sprawl, it is pretty easy to bounce your opponents board. 1 enchantment to get it all started, then you can return one of your opponent's permanents for each untapped land you control (way more if you have serras sanctum). Technically this is a win-con since you can just deck your opponent(or dryad arbor beats), and they can never stick anything on the board (exception being combo decks with free mana).

Opalescence - I have been looking for a 3rd win condition for a long time, and can't seem to find anything I like. Words of war is only good against creature decks, and only when you have 2x enchantress in play, and is the wrong color. Emrakul, the Aeons Torn is nice since it can't be countered, but is completely dead unless you have already won the game. Helm of obedience is dead without RIP, isn't an enchantment, and creates problems when i want to sideboard out all the RIP. Opalescence, on the other hand, is an enchantment of the right color that doesn't need an enchantress or any cards in hand to be extremely good. It also creates a giant wall against creature based decks, and can win the game the turn it comes into play (since your enchantments not played that turn can attack immediately). The obvious downside being that it opens you to creature hate, however a sterling grove or playing smart will avoid this, and people will board out their creature hate against you.


Quick report:
Intuition loam (-4 elephant grass -1 sphere of safety -1 words +1 back to basics +1 karmic +2 RIP +1 detention sphere +1 suppression field)
g1: Im on the play and get sprawl down before his chalice at 1. Argothian goes to work, and he doesnt have any real pressure before opalescence turns my board sideways
g2: He has turn 1 trinisphere followed by 2 ports, a wasteland, and loam. Im ported out and start drawing all my nonbasic lands, and never reach 3 mana or play anything but lands.
g3: I drop argothian, and he has another trini on turn 2. But trinisphere goes to work for me as i drop back to basics. He doesn't recover (suppression field is really good in this matchup, but i never got to see one)
(1-0)

WBG supression field aggro (-2 RIP -2 supression field +1 karmic +1 back to basics +1 replenish +1 detention sphere)
g1: He drops thalia + suppression fieldx2 + glowrider. I have to stall with opal for a while, and eventually pay 7 to grove for energy field. I then realize i don't have blue mana, and can't cast it.
g2: I have a serra's sanctum to pay for everything, and he scoops to solitary confinement.
g3: Because he is playing 4 supression fields, he is also playing all nonbasics. He taps out for glowrider, and i drop back to basics and he never recovers.
(2-0)

RUG delver with spell snare instead of stifle (-2 supression field -1 guile -1 words -1 o-ring -1 opal +2 choke +1 back to basics +1 in the eye of chaos +2 RIP)
g1: I have 2x argothian, he has 2x spell snare and a force. Guess who wins this one. I almost stabilize at 1 life, but he rips a bolt off the top for the win
g2: I have argothian, and he has spell snare again. But this time he has mongoose + goyf, and i have tons of mana + RIP. He scoops to an energy field + RIP
g3: I have tons of accel and argothian, hoping to overpower spell pierce and daze. Naturally he has spell snare for the third time in a row, and a force for my choke. Grass slows him down, but he is happy to swing with his 4/5 goyf as I topdeck lands for the rest of the game
(2-1)

UB tezzeret (-1 guile -2 RIP -2 energy field -1 grove +2 choke + 1 back to basics +1 detention sphere +1 karmic +1 supression)
g1: He find thopter foundry + sword of meek pretty quick, but ancestral grabs me energy field + RIP. Words of wind bounces ancestral back to my hand, and it finds me a solitary confinement to answer his tezz, and he scoops.
g2: He has tezz + thopter combo again. I have an oblivion ring for tezz, and he doesnt have a force. Sphere of safety holds thopters at bay, but he gains like 30 life. It takes a while, but words of wind bounces his army, and sigil goes the distance.
(3-1)

RUG delver (-2 supression field -1 guile -1 words -1 o-ring -1 opal +2 choke +1 back to basics +1 in the eye of chaos +2 RIP)
g1: He counters some stuff, but RIP makes it through and his board of 2x goyf isnt much of a clock anymore. He scoops to opal
g2: He counters grove and enchantress, but choke lands and elephant grass wins the day.
(4-1)

Top 8:
Elves! (-2 RIP -1 words -1 opalesence +2 Replenish +1 detention sphere +1 karmic)
g1: I've played a lot of magic at this point, and forget supression field doesn't effect mana abilities. I die to an elf horde.
g2: I have energy field + grove in hand. He cant answer it before sigil flies to victory.
g3: I keep a hand with a lot of enchantress and accel, but not real protection. He goes off before i can find something. In retrospect, it was a bad hand to keep against a faster deck.


Notes:
My loss to RUG delver was simply unlucky. He always had spell snares, and i always had argothians. I still woulda won if he didnt rip a bolt at the perfect time. I also made poor decisions in my match against elves, but i think its a bad matchup
Dryad arbor should be a basic land, or a karakas. I never liked drawing it or playing it.
Replenish was terrible in the board. It really only shines against landstill or MUC, which i don't think people even play anymore.
Oblivion ring should have been another detention sphere.
If i knew Blind obedience existed, i would have run some in the board (probably in place of replenish).
I just cant tell if mirri's guile or ancestral knowledge is better


Sorry for all the text, thoughts?

[eriktyvollk]

New to the deck sleeved up spatulas build and goldfished for a while to get a feel. Is the normal kill turn 6-8? Any changes you would reccomend to the following list:
4x Argothian
4x Presence
4x Wild Growth
4x Utopia Sprawl
4x Elephant Grass
3x Solitary Confinement
3x Sterling Grove
3x Ground Seal
2x Replenish
2x Green Sun'z Zenith
2x Exploration
1x Words of War
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Sphere of Safety
1x Choke
1x Sylvan Library

2x Serra's Sanctum
3x Savannah
1x Taiga
4x Windswept Heath
1x Plains
9x Forest


Thanks
Erik

[B is for Big Job]

The only thing I could think of is maybe adding in 1 or 2 more Sanctums since they have gotten way better, you can potentially win a lot faster. I also play an Emrakul in my list so having an extra one in hand makes casting him turns sooner.

[Freggle]

list

Spatuala's list is an excellent reference below are some tweaks.

Sylvan Library should be Mirri's Guile
Even though Sylvan is a more powerful stand alone enchantment it does nothing under Solitary Confinement as in Sylvan affects the skipped draw step whereas Guile affect the upkeep.

Green Sun's Zenith count:
With all the targeted discard out there lately I'd run (3) to ensure you have the best chance of your getting your engine going. To do this I would cut the Sphere of Safety or (1) Elephant Grass since you are stacked on the attack hate.

The Kill:
Yes 6-8 is about right. Although many will scoop if you get them under confinement and a grove or two.

Any ideas for your board?

Hope you enjoy the deck it's fun.

Edit: Oh, and if you can swing it Karakas is good for some pesky hate bears, and many big-ins too.

[Freggle]

Suppression field It also affects a go to ramp guy right now Deathrite Shaman (it is not a "mana ability") For what it is worth.


Opalescence - I have been looking for a 3rd win condition for a long time,

This is interesting. Although like many Enchantress win cons it assumes you are already winning (to a point.) Have you considered Thrun, the last troll? He is uncounterable, regenerates, Green sun''s able and tough to deal with.


Sorry for all the text, thoughts?

Overall your lists seems unfocused, but it might just bee that you see it more as a toolbox. I have a hard time seeing the Back to Basics and all the non-basics? Have you been burned on that? Anyhow gratz on the T8.

[mrmaul558]

Opalescence seems quite poor since, without a Sterling Grove, it just turns on all of their creature burn/targeted removal. Also, 1x Taiga is a quick fix for Words of War, which is good against more than just creature decks (planeswalkers, the faces of opponents)

[mrmaul558]

Also, hey everyone! I haven't been around this thread in about a year (last summer was the last time I played any Legacy really... unfortunately. :( )

I was wondering if you all could give me some suggestions on how to update my 75 for the current meta.

Just to give you a reference; I know about RUG Delver and Stoneblade, but have no experience with Shardless BUG, Jund, Helmed Miracle or Standstill Merfolk (the "decks to beat" according to MTGtop8)

Here is my current 75 from a year ago:

Land (20):
4x Windswept Heath
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Verdant Catacombs
1x Wooded Foothills
2x Savannah
1x Taiga
1x Karakas
2x Serra's Sanctum
5x Forest
2x Plains

Core (30):
4x Argothian Enchantress
4x Enchantress's Presence
4x Sterling Grove
4x Elephant Grass
3x Solitary Confinement
3x Mirri's Guile
4x Wild Growth
4x Utopia Sprawl

Other (10):
1x Choke
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Runed Halo
1x Words of War
1x Humility
1x Sigil of the Empty Throne
2x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Replenish
1x Crop Rotation

SB (I have more than this, this is just what's sleeved up)
4x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Stony Silence
1x Karmic Justice
1x Replenish
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Runed Halo
2x City of Solitude
1x Choke
1x Crop Rotation
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Nevermore

Other SB Cards I own:
3x Carpet of Flowers
1x Lignify
1x Ground Seal
1x Raking Canopy
1x Choke
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon
1x Aegis of Honor
2x Rest in Peace
1x Sacred Ground
3x Stony Silence
3x Suppression Field
3x Aura of Silence
2x Sigil of the Empty Throne

What SB pieces do you like? Is MD choke viable anymore? Is MD Humility worth it in this meta? Should I move Replenish to the board for the MD Rest in Peace? Should I SB some Blind Obedience for the Sneak Attack decks?

[Freggle]

Also, hey everyone! I haven't been around this thread in about a year (last summer was the last time I played any Legacy really... unfortunately. :( )

I was wondering if you all could give me some suggestions on how to update my 75 for the current meta.

Just to give you a reference; I know about RUG Delver and Stoneblade, but have no experience with Shardless BUG, Jund, Helmed Miracle or Standstill Merfolk (the "decks to beat" according to MTGtop8)

Here is my current 75 from a year ago:

Land (20):
4x Windswept Heath
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Verdant Catacombs
1x Wooded Foothills
2x Savannah
1x Taiga
1x Karakas
2x Serra's Sanctum
5x Forest
2x Plains

Core (30):
4x Argothian Enchantress
4x Enchantress's Presence
4x Sterling Grove
4x Elephant Grass
3x Solitary Confinement
3x Mirri's Guile
4x Wild Growth
4x Utopia Sprawl

Other (10):
1x Choke
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Runed Halo
1x Words of War
1x Humility
1x Sigil of the Empty Throne
2x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Replenish
1x Crop Rotation

SB (I have more than this, this is just what's sleeved up)
4x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Stony Silence
1x Karmic Justice
1x Replenish
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Runed Halo
2x City of Solitude
1x Choke
1x Crop Rotation
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Nevermore

Other SB Cards I own:
3x Carpet of Flowers
1x Lignify
1x Ground Seal
1x Raking Canopy
1x Choke
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon
1x Aegis of Honor
2x Rest in Peace
1x Sacred Ground
3x Stony Silence
3x Suppression Field
3x Aura of Silence
2x Sigil of the Empty Throne

What SB pieces do you like? Is MD choke viable anymore? Is MD Humility worth it in this meta? Should I move Replenish to the board for the MD Rest in Peace? Should I SB some Blind Obedience for the Sneak Attack decks?

Lots of questions here. I'll try and help.

I'm not sure if I agree with T8's meta, but I'll lest the key cards for the match-up you want (outside of 11 enchantress effects with GSZ).

Shardless BUG
Rest In Peace
Sterling Grove
Leyline of Sanctity
Solitary Confinement
Basic Lands

If you start a game with Leyline you are way ahead. Basically any threat worth anything requires a graveyard so Rest in Peace is brutal Solitary Confinement followed by grove is hard to come back from. Guile helps mitigate nasty early discard, but is not a requirement.


Jund
Rest In Peace
Sterling Grove
Leyline of Sanctity
Solitary Confinement
Basic Lands

See Sharless BUG


Helmed Miracle
Oblivion Ring
Solitary Confinement
Mirri's Guile
Seal of Primordium
Replenish
Fetch Lands

This match-up is all about overloading their counter magic. Play aggressively, and "make them have it." When you know the coast is clear stick a Enchantress's Presence over an Argothian since she can not be terminused or verdicted. Their threats are light so O ring can do some work. It is also pretty good at getting Counterbalance if need be. Value player shroud to stay out of helms reach.

Standstill Merfolk
Solitary Confinement
Elephant Grass
Mirri's Guile
Fetch lands

Stop their swings, and you got all the time in the world to win. No biggie. If they drop Standstill just play. It's almost trivial. Mirri's and fetches are prized here to give you the best chance to stick an enchantress effect.


What SB pieces do you like? Is MD choke viable anymore?

Choke is always viable, but it's not my go to card right now.


Is MD Humility worth it in this meta?

I was never a fan of Humility in enchantress. Since it rendered your Argothians and GSZ useless. Most of the time today Rest in Peace is a 2 mana Humility with an upside.


Should I move Replenish to the board for the MD Rest in Peace?
Depends on the build and the meta. If your in the T8 meta described above yes. Hitting 4 mana against a strong Jund hand can be difficult (even with ramp.) Rest in Peace will buy you a lot of time, and is a good combo hate card too.


Should I SB some Blind Obedience for the Sneak Attack decks?

From what I see Sneak attack is old news to Omnitell, but I would add the Blind Obedience to the board as it is really good against elves, storm and Tin fins... anything that vomits creatures or artifact mana as well as Sneak Attack.

Hopefully I helped. ...and welcome back!

[Hisa]

Also, hey everyone! I haven't been around this thread in about a year (last summer was the last time I played any Legacy really... unfortunately. :( )

I was wondering if you all could give me some suggestions on how to update my 75 for the current meta.

Just to give you a reference; I know about RUG Delver and Stoneblade, but have no experience with Shardless BUG, Jund, Helmed Miracle or Standstill Merfolk (the "decks to beat" according to MTGtop8)

Here is my current 75 from a year ago:

Land (20):
4x Windswept Heath
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Verdant Catacombs
1x Wooded Foothills
2x Savannah
1x Taiga
1x Karakas
2x Serra's Sanctum
5x Forest
2x Plains

Core (30):
4x Argothian Enchantress
4x Enchantress's Presence
4x Sterling Grove
4x Elephant Grass
3x Solitary Confinement
3x Mirri's Guile
4x Wild Growth
4x Utopia Sprawl

Other (10):
1x Choke
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Runed Halo
1x Words of War
1x Humility
1x Sigil of the Empty Throne
2x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Replenish
1x Crop Rotation

SB (I have more than this, this is just what's sleeved up)
4x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Stony Silence
1x Karmic Justice
1x Replenish
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Runed Halo
2x City of Solitude
1x Choke
1x Crop Rotation
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Nevermore

Other SB Cards I own:
3x Carpet of Flowers
1x Lignify
1x Ground Seal
1x Raking Canopy
1x Choke
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon
1x Aegis of Honor
2x Rest in Peace
1x Sacred Ground
3x Stony Silence
3x Suppression Field
3x Aura of Silence
2x Sigil of the Empty Throne

What SB pieces do you like? Is MD choke viable anymore? Is MD Humility worth it in this meta? Should I move Replenish to the board for the MD Rest in Peace? Should I SB some Blind Obedience for the Sneak Attack decks?


So, I've been tinkering with my list lately, after having played a bunch of cascade midrange and delver threshold type decks. The biggest problem you run into against Shardless and Jund and Deathblade is Deathrite Shaman. As per usual, you stabilize and get a hard or soft lock between 8 and 15 life. Deathrite Shaman, unfortunately, says "[Tap]B: Each opponent loses 2 life." which beats all of the locks in the deck. There are cards that you can run to stop this (Ground Seal, etc), but having to find an additional card makes it super hard to actually win games before you get killt.

Other than that, Blind Obedience is super good against Sneak / Through the Breach, and functions as a secondary (tertiary) win con.

[Freggle]

So, I've been tinkering with my list lately, after having played a bunch of cascade midrange and delver threshold type decks. The biggest problem you run into against Shardless and Jund and Deathblade is Deathrite Shaman. As per usual, you stabilize and get a hard or soft lock between 8 and 15 life. Deathrite Shaman, unfortunately, says "[Tap]B: Each opponent loses 2 life." which beats all of the locks in the deck. There are cards that you can run to stop this (Ground Seal, etc), but having to find an additional card makes it super hard to actually win games before you get killt.

Other than that, Blind Obedience is super good against Sneak / Through the Breach, and functions as a secondary (tertiary) win con.

Deathrite becomes a vanilla 1/2 with Rest in Peace on the battlefield. That isn't much of a clock. Try the Rip helm kill. Rest in Peace is really that good of a card right now.

[Hisa]

Deathrite becomes a vanilla 1/2 with Rest in Peace on the battlefield. That isn't much of a clock. Try the Rip helm kill. Rest in Peace is really that good of a card right now.

I agree with you completely, RIP is a great card. My point was simply that you have to find an additional card to effectively lock, which is hard to do.

[Hisa]

Although, I would love someone to sell me on my RIP / Helm (not searchable) is better than Words/ Sigil (searchable)

[mrmaul558]

Its searchable with E Tutor, just not Sterling Grove.

[Freggle]

Although, I would love someone to sell me on my RIP / Helm (not searchable) is better than Words/ Sigil (searchable)

Just off the top of my head.

Pros:
Wins effectively on the spot
Does not care about life totals
Does not have to "do damage"
Does not require an enchantress effect
Each card does something relevant on their own
Can be a mono white combo off of Serra's Sanctum (7) mana total
Allows a completely viable Gw build for more consistency

Cons
Requires you to run (at least) one less enchantment
1/2 not tutorale with Sterling Grove
Helm can feel bad without RIP in play


...to me the pros out weigh the cons. The fact that 1/2 isn't tutorable with Sterling Grove does not out weigh the effectiveness nor it's worth. Most of the time our tutors go to work on either shrouding our lock/stall pieces or searching our lock/stall pieces. We usually draw into the win in the process. I personally play a list with Sigil of the Empty Throne as an additional wincon for various reasons. If I'm to the point where I want to use a tutor for a win con I just grab that. The independance from the enchantress engine is relevant in attrition match ups becuase all their energy typically goes into disrupting the engine... and then we just win.

[kavaki]

I played at a local legacy event the other day and one of the T8 decks (turnout of 25-35 people) was enchantress. One of the weird quirks about it however was that it ran Possibility Storm+ Curse of Exhaustion as a way of looking out an opponent.

By no means am I asking how good it is as it seemed a little weird, but it did get them a couple wins. My main question is people's opinions. Personally I am of the "its cool, but seems to cutesy" camp.

[Freggle]

I played at a local legacy event the other day and one of the T8 decks (turnout of 25-35 people) was enchantress. One of the weird quirks about it however was that it ran Possibility Storm+ Curse of Exhaustion as a way of looking out an opponent.

By no means am I asking how good it is as it seemed a little weird, but it did get them a couple wins. My main question is people's opinions. Personally I am of the "its cool, but seems to cutesy" camp.

Yeah, 2 cards and 9 mana seems steep for a combo that doesn't actually win just helps to not loose. I would be interested in seeing the list if you have access to it. It may provide more insight to the :r: :r: requirement of Possibility Storm, and the context in which this combo is affective.

Nice to see other enchantress decks placing not the less.

[kavaki]

Yeah, 2 cards and 9 mana seems steep for a combo that doesn't actually win just helps to not loose. I would be interested in seeing the list if you have access to it. It may provide more insight to the :r: :r: requirement of Possibility Storm, and the context in which this combo is affective.

Nice to see other enchantress decks placing not the less.

No list, but memory does serve that they had a singleton Taiga (maybe 2) and a full set of Sprawls. They also ran WoWar as another wincon, but said that they were on the fence about it. The person doesnt play legacy regularly, but she does know the deck very well and will play if the meta allows enchantress to do well.

[Freggle]

Sweet lord! ...spoil Theros (http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/261c) already. I want me some enchantment gods.

[Patrunkenphat7]

Sweet lord! ...spoil Theros (http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/261c) already. I want me some enchantment gods.

Volrath's Stronghold/Academy Ruins in white for enchantments, calling it now! :smile:

[Hisa]

So, sorry for the delay in my reply, end of summer is crazy for me. I also want to say that I'm not trying to be obstinate, I'm really just trying to figure this out.


Just off the top of my head.

Pros:
Wins effectively on the spot
Sold on this point. Probably the strongest argument in favor of this kill con.


Does not care about life totals
Neither does WoW or Sigil, really, unless you're facing a deck that has an infinite life combo (Kobolds?). They all do some arbitrarily high amount of damage after you've established a lock on the board. Additionaly, Sigil gets through Ivory Mask effects, while RIP/Helm does not.


Does not have to "do damage"
Can you give me an example of the relevance of this?


Does not require an enchantress effect
To be fair, neither does sigil. When I was playing this deck and 4 color Counterbalance was the thing, plan a was to jam spells to bait counters and win off a resolved Sigil which doesn't care if they counter all the spells you cast for the rest of the game. However, if you change this to "Does not require a lock" I will mostly cede this point.


Each card does something relevant on their own
So do WoW and Sigil. Skip a draw to kill a Gaddock Teeg or a Delver and making a 4/4 flier for nothing both seem more relevant than HoO.


Can be a mono white combo off of Serra's Sanctum (7) mana total
Sure, minor.


Allows a completely viable Gw build for more consistency
Have you ever had problems splashing R for WoW off a taiga and 4 sprawls? I never have.



Cons
Requires you to run (at least) one less enchantment
1/2 not tutorale with Sterling Grove
Helm can feel bad without RIP in play


...to me the pros out weigh the cons. The fact that 1/2 isn't tutorable with Sterling Grove does not out weigh the effectiveness nor it's worth. Most of the time our tutors go to work on either shrouding our lock/stall pieces or searching our lock/stall pieces. We usually draw into the win in the process. I personally play a list with Sigil of the Empty Throne as an additional wincon for various reasons. If I'm to the point where I want to use a tutor for a win con I just grab that. The independance from the enchantress engine is relevant in attrition match ups becuase all their energy typically goes into disrupting the engine... and then we just win.

As for the rest... Which matches are attrition matches? If the other deck is trying to go 1 for 1 via Vindicates or Qasali Pridemage (or counterspells), don't you just win through infinite card advantage? If they're trying to use Deeds or Back to Natures or whatever, don't you still need Kharmic Justice to win?

Like I said, I'm not trying to tell you that you're wrong, I'm trying to puzzle through the implications of the card.

TANGENTIAL: So I put a 1 of Land Tax in my list as soon as it got unbanned. I'm still up in the air about it. It gives you a soft lock with Solitary if you need a few turns, and a bunch of extra shuffles to go with Mirri's Guile, but it also doesn't do much. I really can't decide.

Also, E. Tutor is terrible. Doesn't cantrip with Enchantress effects, and is the worst card ever if you're playing against a deck with blue or have to mulligan. Paris to 6, Enlightened Tutor an Enchantress's Presence to the top of your deck and get it countered? No fucking thanks.

EDIT: Formatting. I also decided that I will try to put up my current pile at some point tonight.

[Freggle]

your words

Thanks for keeping the conversation going.

Here is the deal. Trying to "sell" RIP/Helm to a die hard Enchantress player is not an easy one. I will be happy to debate it with you, but to nit pick each point to me is fruitless.

So I'll just cut to it.

The real star of the combo is Rest in Peace. This card single handedly stops or stalls many decks faster than us. It thows a bit of a wrench into some paths of many nightmare MUs. High tide (their tides don't shuffle in), reanimator, TES (past in flames, cabal), black decks, Tombstalker, Cabal Therapy... I could go on-and-on.

The real drag about it is you should no longer play Replenish, and you play one or more less enchantment (your helm slots.)

So in short to debate the kill itself is only a portion of it. The fact that it's two cards and it just wins is pretty good in its own right, the fact that RIP interacts favorably with the wide format is a larger plus, and the fact that it gives us an additional tool for combo is a tipping point.

It's not for everyone, but it is certainly good.



As for the rest... Which matches are attrition matches? If the other deck is trying to go 1 for 1 via Vindicates or Qasali Pridemage (or counterspells), don't you just win through infinite card advantage? If they're trying to use Deeds or Back to Natures or whatever, don't you still need Kharmic Justice to win?

A good example is Jund. ...and if you get the engine going yes you win with CA, but Liliana and Abrupt decay with targeted discard can put a stop to that. When they spent all of their turns on stopping all of that RIP / Helm has "stole" some games for me.

As for Karmic? ...no you don't need that I win through Deed quite often. You're better off maxing out your enchantress effects. This will help you more over the meta rather than preparing for a specific threat.

Side answer: An example of it not doing damage is when someone has an energy field out or has gained infinite life.

[oSeabass]

Why does this deck not run Sylvan Library, but runs Mirri's Guile instead? Does it have to do with the interaction of Library and Solitary Confinement somehow so you end up not being able to look at the cards? I know as a Maverick player, Library acts as a nice little green fake Brainstorm effect where I can pay life to draw extra cards. My first guess is that with Confinement in play, Library does nothing, where Guile allows you to setup the top 3 for fetch information/draws off enchantress effects?

[Freggle]

Why does this deck not run Sylvan Library, but runs Mirri's Guile instead? Does it have to do with the interaction of Library and Solitary Confinement somehow so you end up not being able to look at the cards? I know as a Maverick player, Library acts as a nice little green fake Brainstorm effect where I can pay life to draw extra cards. My first guess is that with Confinement in play, Library does nothing, where Guile allows you to setup the top 3 for fetch information/draws off enchantress effects?

You nailed it. It is the Solitary interaction. Additionally life is precious to the enchantress player as we don't have creatures for traditional combat. So many times you are using your life to by time to land your attack hate enchantments. If you were to play an enchantress that featured Energy Field over Solitary Confinement a different deck than this thread then you could feasibly run Sylvan Library.

There is an old combo of Sylvan Library an Abundance enchantress used to run, but it is one of those "cool things" to do, and is quite dated.

[btm10]

While I agree that the Sylvan Library/Solitary Confinement combination is a non-starter, I want to come down on the side of keeping Sylvan and dropping Confinement. I've been playing the deck in both Vintage and Legacy since 2001, and in a lot of different forms. I've played Confinement builds and while I agree that it improves some matchups, most notably Jund, it doesn't improve other enough to warrant inclusion, IMO. I realize that this is a heterodox opinion, but I'm going to post my list, which went 4-0 in the monthly even in South Bend, IN yesterday, and let's have the discussion.

Mana Sources/Lands (27)
5 Forest
4 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
2 Savannah
2 Serra's Sanctum
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth

Engine(16)
4 Argothian Enchantress
3 Sterling Grove
3 Enchantress's Presence
2 Sylvan Library
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Replenish

Staying Alive(6)
3 Elephant Grass
1 Sphere of Safety
1 The Abyss
1 Leyline of Sanctity

Answers(8)
3 Duress
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Suppression Field
1 Words of Waste

Win(3)
1 Rest in Peace
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 Helm of Obedience

The slot that The Abyss and Leyline of Sanctity currently occupies is up in the air - it's been Elephant Grass #4, Suppression Field #2, and Sylvan Library #3 in the recent past, and the Leyline has been Enlightened Tutor #3 and Sterling Grove #4 as well (the Leyline was in the board).

This build plays more like a toolbox than the "standard" build; the tutors are only used to find win conditions when you're going suicide RIP/Helm, which is a fairly weak strategy in the grand scheme of things. Replenish is an absolute bomb against a whole slew of decks, including Miracles and Jund where it lets you aggressively cast things into counters or bait out Abrupt Decays and recover from discard. Liliana and Jace are problematic, but Suppression Field and O-Ring help dramatically, and the ability to pay life to draw cards from Sylvan, coupled with its ability to feed Words of Waste wins games against control decks of all stripes.

The combo matchup is bad, but Duress has helped more against combo than Solitary Confinement ever did.

Fire away with any comments/criticism/questions.

[waSP]

Sensei's Divining Top + Words of Waste can let you shut your opponents out of all of their non-instant spells. A non-bo with Suppression Field, certainly, but do you need one if you have the other?

Pernicious Deed? If you know your Replenish is going to resolve (as it will against most decks relying on relatively low-costed permanents), the interaction is very powerful.

How often do you Enlightened Tutor for an Enchantress's Presence? How often are your answers too slow/underpowered?

You went 4-0 against what matchups?

[anonymos]

How do you guys feel about the card Commune with the Gods that Star City is now taking preorders for?

Card Type: Sorcery
Casting Cost: 1G
Card Text: Reveal the top five cards of your library. You may put a creature or enchantment card from among them into your hand. Put the rest into your graveyard.

I'm tempted to play 1-2, but that's just for testing. It seems like the equivalent of playing Peer through Depths in our deck. It's almost good, but it skips the lands.

[Freggle]

How do you guys feel about the card Commune with the Gods that Star City is now taking preorders for?

Card Type: Sorcery
Casting Cost: 1G
Card Text: Reveal the top five cards of your library. You may put a creature or enchantment card from among them into your hand. Put the rest into your graveyard.

I'm tempted to play 1-2, but that's just for testing. It seems like the equivalent of playing Peer through Depths in our deck. It's almost good, but it skips the lands.

My initial reaction to it is. It's good enough to test, but seems fairly marginal or require a specific build. If it was an enchantment Mulch it would have been bonkers.

The pros:
-can dig for an enchantress effect under duress
-can place enchantments in the graveyard for Replenish shenanigans
-it is not card disadvantage
-Card in hand tutor
-See 2 cards deeper earlier than Mirri's Guile

The cons:
-Does not put Green Sun's Zenith, Enlightened Tutor, or utility lands into hand.
-Digging for an enchantress effect is cheaper and more assured with Green Sun's Zenith (barring Teeg...)
-Can find non-green hatebears for troublesome MUs
-Not an enchantment itself to make Solitary Confinement harder to hold up. ...if you run it

...to me it's best lining up for Replenish abuse, and that is about it since enchantress already has access to Sterling Grove, Mirri's Guile & Sylvan Library for all of the digging in enchantment form.

[Freggle]

...went 4-0 in the monthly even in South Bend, IN yesterday, and let's have the discussion.

cards]Mana Sources/Lands (27)
5 Forest
4 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
2 Savannah
2 Serra's Sanctum
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth

Engine(16)
4 Argothian Enchantress
3 Sterling Grove
3 Enchantress's Presence
2 Sylvan Library
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Replenish

Staying Alive(6)
3 Elephant Grass
1 Sphere of Safety
1 The Abyss
1 Leyline of Sanctity

Answers(8)
3 Duress
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Suppression Field
1 Words of Waste

Win(3)
1 Rest in Peace
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 Helm of Obedience [/cards]

...going suicide RIP/Helm, which is a fairly weak strategy in the grand scheme of things....

...and the ability to pay life to draw cards from Sylvan, coupled with its ability to feed Words of Waste wins games against control decks of all stripes.

...The combo matchup is bad, but Duress has helped more against combo than Solitary Confinement ever did.

Fire away with any comments/criticism/questions.

Overall I'm very intrigued with the list. I'd really like to know your sideboard as well as your tourney MU's like WaSP had mentioned.

Why do you feel Rest in Peace + Helm of Obedience is weak? Is it the Replenish Rest in Peace interation?

You don't have to pay life with Sylvan Library if you are activating the Words of Wastes replacement effect. Reference link (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25309-Sylvan-Library-Replacement-effects) This is the same reason why the Abundance interation works.

As for combo you're going to think I'm insane, but have you tried Thalia? I have been testing it with good success. We ramp over it long before combo does, and it puts pressure on their life total. I pay Maverick all of the time (its my good friends deck). Thalia never really affected to the point where it mattered so I put her in the board to wreak others. Thats my super secret tek right now.

[btm10]

First, to clarify, I didn't go 4-0, I leant the deck to one of my friend, and he did (he may have ID'ed into Top 4 rather than play the last round, so his final record would've been 3-0-1 in that case, but he was the only person in top 4 better than 3-1). I know he played against U/W Miracles (the version with RIP/Helm) and me playing UBR Tempo, and someone playing RU(G?) Delver. I think his 4th match was Affinity, but I could be wrong.


Sensei's Divining Top + Words of Waste can let you shut your opponents out of all of their non-instant spells. A non-bo with Suppression Field, certainly, but do you need one if you have the other?

You absolutely can do that, but Sylvan/WoW leaves just about any opponent in topdeck mode, and then you just win through overwhelming CA. Until Enchantress becomes more widely played and people start boarding in specific hate, I don't fear their topdecking enough to make room for Top over another Library.


Pernicious Deed? If you know your Replenish is going to resolve (as it will against most decks relying on relatively low-costed permanents), the interaction is very powerful.

This is a powerful interaction, and one that I haven't tested. The biggest downside I see is that the Enchantress will usually get caught up in the Deed, and she isn't Replenishable. The other thing that makes me hesitate is that in matchups where mass removal seems good (Goblins, Elves!, Affinity to a lesser extent), you're usually already winning by the time you would rather blow up the world than dig for a different answer.



How often do you Enlightened Tutor for an Enchantress's Presence? How often are your answers too slow/underpowered?

You went 4-0 against what matchups?

I rarely cast ET for Presence, maybe once/tournament. I'm going to lump Grove and ET together for a moment and say that the most common target is Sylvan Library, followed by matchup/board state dependent silver bullets. The biggest limitation is against combo, where Duress is badly underpowered but is still better than Mana Thithe. ANT and Belcher are basically autolosses preboard, and postboard they only get marginally better because the answers simply aren't there. My anti-combo package is 3-4 Leyline of Sanctity, 1 Stony Silence, 1 Rule of Law, just for the record.

The other situation is against Jund, where the best answer is Suppression Field + The Abyss, but each of those requires a tutor, which makes it slower than you'd like since you're targetable without Solitary Confinement. This isn't to say that the matchup isn't winnable, just that you usually want to make getting Sylvan and Suppression Field online an even higher priority than getting an enchantress online, and make The Abyss your first target once those are up and running, and I wish it weren't that complicated. A much more minor case is that you want to get multiple Engineered Plagues up against Elves in games 2 and 3, and that is slower than I like.

For reference, the current board is:

3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Aura of Silence
2 Engineered Plague
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Choke
1 Blind Obedience
1 Rule of Law
1 Stony Silence
1 Suppression Field
1 Rest in Peace

@Freggle

I'm sorry that the points about Sylvan and WoW weren't clear - I was making two different points about why it was good in the Jund and Miracles matchups:

1. You can pay life to dig deeper if you need to find an answer you don't have a tutor for
or need to make up ground you've lost to Jace or Liliana

and

2. You can feed WoW with the draws from Sylvan
Also, totally unrelated - I think that Pursuit of Knowledge/Sylvan is better than the Abundance version of that play.

Similarly, I'd be running Sacred Mesa or a second Sigil if I thought that Rest in Peace/Helm wasn't the optimal win condition. I just think that because the deck wasn't built to support an all-out race to assemble the combo and set it off, playing it as if that were the plan is a way to lose more often than you would otherwise. Sometimes you don't have that luxury, though, and the correct choice is to (try to) win now, even though you're sacrificing a lot of the deck's strengths to do it.

I haven't tested Thalia, but I think it's a good idea and will get on it. I tested Sphere of Resistance years ago as a last ditch effort to save t he Vintage version on the deck, and it didn't work out well. But this isn't Vintage, and that was a long time ago anway, so Thalia seems testable at the very least. I'll let you know how she works out.

@ anonymos

I agree with Freggle's assessment of Commune with the Gods, with the caveat that if it were an ability on an enchantment (maybe at 1GW to cast, 1G to activate?) I'd probably run it in one of the slots I mentioned earlier as being variable. The effect is extremely powerful, but being sorcery speed and not an enchantment is a problem. You'd also run the risk of accidentally binning your Helm, which can't be recurred.

[Hisa]

So, this is the list that I have, atm, though I suspect it is less exciting after the UGb list that was just posted (which I'm still on the fence about).


4 x Windswept Heath
3 x Savannah
1 x Taiga
2 x Horizon Canopy
2 x Serra's Sanctum
5 x Forest
3 x Plains


4 x Wild Growth
4 x Utopia Sprawl

4 x Elephant Grass
4 x Sterling Grove
3 x Mirri's Guile
4 x Argothian Enchantress
4 x Enchantress's Presence
4 x Solitary Confinement

1 x Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 x Words of War

1 x Land Tax
1 x Moat

1 x Oblivion Ring
1 x Blind Obedience
1 x Ground Seal

2 x Replenish

SB:
4 x Leyline of Sanctity
2 x Choke
1 x Stony Silence
1 x Lignify
1 x Aura of Silence
1 x Rest in Peace
1 x Nevermore
1 x City of Solitude
1 x Humility
1 x Karmic Justice
1 x Replenish


So, a few notes. Mirri's Guile is the best card in the deck. The Horizon Canopies are super good the turn you establish a lock because they help make sure that you have a card to discard to Solitary and still have the enchantment to play to start your draw cycle. They're also really good when you 3 or 4 or 5 times and brick. But they really suck in two land openers when you really want to play acceleration on them. They're also good wasteland bait against people who aren't familiar with how the deck works. I am so up in the air about Land Tax. The card helps to smooth out draws and is pretty good for setting up a soft lock with Solitary, but sometimes its the literal worst enchantment you can draw. The silver bullets change every time I play the deck in a tournament based on what I think the meta is going to be like. The same thing goes for all of the cards in the sideboard besides Leyline. I've recently been considering cutting Lignify, because Iona is a bad fatty right now(wtf), but it makes me nervous to be so cold to that card. I would love to rundown the bullet choices if anything that doesn't make sense.

[GoldenCid]

Went to a 50 man gtp yesterday with GWr helm enchantress:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [US] Serra's Sanctum
1 [B] Taiga
3 [ZEN] Plains (1)
6 [ZEN] Forest (1)
1 [LG] Karakas
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [R] Savannah

// Creatures
4 [US] Argothian Enchantress

// Spells
1 [ON] Words of War
2 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
2 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
1 [OD] Karmic Justice
4 [ON] Enchantress's Presence
1 [CFX] Sigil of the Empty Throne
4 [DIS] Utopia Sprawl
3 [U] Wild Growth
3 [TE] Mirri's Guile
4 [VI] Elephant Grass
3 [JU] Solitary Confinement
4 [IN] Sterling Grove
1 [AL] Helm of Obedience
3 [RTR] Rest in Peace

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 [OD] Karmic Justice
SB: 1 [LG] Moat
SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 3 [US] Carpet of Flowers
SB: 1 [7E] Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 2 [ISD] Stony Silence
SB: 1 [9E] Blood Moon
SB: 1 [VI] City of Solitude

Not so good perfeormance with: 3 win 1 draw 2 loss

R1: stupid game loss against JUnk. :mad:
R2: Won to burn 2-1.
R3: Won to RUG 1-0.
R4: LOst to JUnd 0-2.
R5: Draw to Junk 1-1.
R6: Won to Affinity 2-1.

I was my fisrt experience with helm + rip. I wish i had another helm but i couldnt get it on time.
I miss a little bit Replenish (3 of 6 games had discard stuff MD) but Rip is great indeed makes shaman and nimble useless vanilla guys. Dodnt miss moat at all but i kept in side because it still can win games alone.
Few misplays but in overall i'm satisfied (2 months without playing magic).

Any advice is welcomed!!!

@HIsa: 4 Solitary confinement is too much. 2-3 is fibe.
@btm10: Stony silence worked great aginst combo (i run two) and kills affinity if you still see it. However, combo is the worst MU we have even post side. Maybe 20- 80 improves to 30 / 40 -60 / 70 post side.

GC.

[Dihensoeur]

Hi all,

@GoldenCid: GG!

I just would like to discuss about new cards from Theros, specially:
- Boon Satyr (4/2 flash for 1GG)
- Leafcrown Dryad (2/2 reach for 1G)

Is there any way to use them?
I mean:
- Boon Satyr has flash and can kill Tarmogoyf.
- Dryad can kill Delver.
- All are green enchantments, so can be back to the battlefield by Replenish and offer you an aggro plan.
- Moreover, you can run more creatures so you can keep Argothian enchantress under Liliana by sac Dryad/Boon.

So you can build an Enchantress deck with these creatures and Replenish (maybe with Pernicious Deed?).

What is your opinion about it?

[Just me]

Well, I think the deck would have to change to do that. Creature-beatdown isn't really the plan in traditional Enchantress as we know it currently.

But inf times long past, Auratog + Rancor in a deck with Enchantress was a thing (I even ran some Empyrial Armor and Maro back then).

Use some of these old cards with cards from 'Boggles' and these new creatures and we might have a complete new archetype; Aggro-Enchantress. Late game should be nice too, with Replenish going nuts. To beat other aggro, it likely needs some lifegain like Armadillo Cloak or Spirit Loop.

[btm10]

Golden Cid - I like Stony Silence in the combo matchup, where I also board it in (along with the remaining Leylines and Rule of Law). I'm a little confused by your use of CoP: Red in the board. I realize that you can't run Engineering Plague to beat Goblins, but I never have problems beating Goblins with just Elephant Grass to stall until I can drop Sphere of Safety, which I've found to be even better than Moat. I'm fairly sure that I've never lost a match to burn, and with 4 Leyline in your board, I don't think you have, either. So did you like it at all, or would it be better as Karmic Justice to free up a slot MD?

I've run the 5th fetch (not a fan), but 6 seems like way too many without a basic mountain, and only running 3 plains/1 savannah + Sprawl leaves me surprised that you don't run into problems getting enough white in the mid/endgame, especially because you're so reliant on getting the Confinement lock. On that note, I have to point out the extreme non-bo between any Words of W---- and Confinement, mostly because it forces you to use Mirri's Guile instead of Sylvan Library. You may think this isn't a big deal, but Library/Words of War is a board-clearing machine gun that costs 3 to activate, and also kills Liliana, Tarmogoyf, and Jace, much in the same way that Library/Words of Waste is a Mind Twist every turn. I strongly recommend testing it.

[hzwhvw]

So, Theros complete spoiler is out.
I play GW Helm Enchantress and i want your opinion guys...

Did they just release a 119 enchantment edition with 0 usable enchantments on Enchantress Legacy?
I wouldn't add any of Theros's enchantments to my list i can tell you that.

There are some decent ones, but none with power level high enough to enter GW Helm Enchantress IMO.

[Freggle]

So, Theros complete spoiler is out.
I play GW Helm Enchantress and i want your opinion guys...

Did they just release a 119 enchantment edition with 0 usable enchantments on Enchantress Legacy?
I wouldn't add any of Theros's enchantments to my list i can tell you that.

There are some decent ones, but none with power level high enough to enter GW Helm Enchantress IMO.

Yes. There are some questionable corner case enchantments like that G 2/1 reach guy, or the White god but all of them are largely unsable for GW enchantress.

Lets put it into perspective though. Enchantress got a good deal of love in the Return to Ravnica block with Sphere of Safety and Rest in Peace which is the first time in a while that enchantress really got anything since Green Sun's Zenith which really isn't an enchantress card per say.

[btm10]

Just some quick notes on testing my GWb build:

I'm less and less um, enchanted with The Abyss, at least main. It's a house against "normal" aggro, but that's an endangered species. Against Jund it's great early to keep DRS down and it kills Goyf, but the downside to this is that it doesn't kill Liliana, forcing you to either O-ring her, win before she gets to 6, or use Sigil tokens for removal. It's win more against Goblins and Elves, where you're better off with Sphere of Safety game 1 and Plague post-board, and is easily neutered by Maverick and D&T because they have Mom. The latter two decks are easily dealt with by Dread of Night out of the board, but I haven't had enough times where I was firmly in control immediately (or within a turn) as a result of dropping The Abyss for it to take up the maindeck slot.

Right now I've changed The Abyss to the fourth Presence and dropped one Forest for a second Leyline main, which has been great. I'd like to add the Forest back because I feel like the manabase has been cut to the bone, but I'm having trouble deciding what to cut.

[GoldenCid]

Hi all,

@GoldenCid: GG!

I just would like to discuss about new cards from Theros, specially:
- Boon Satyr (4/2 flash for 1GG)
- Leafcrown Dryad (2/2 reach for 1G)

Is there any way to use them?
I mean:
- Boon Satyr has flash and can kill Tarmogoyf.
- Dryad can kill Delver.
- All are green enchantments, so can be back to the battlefield by Replenish and offer you an aggro plan.
- Moreover, you can run more creatures so you can keep Argothian enchantress under Liliana by sac Dryad/Boon.

So you can build an Enchantress deck with these creatures and Replenish (maybe with Pernicious Deed?).

What is your opinion about it?

Sorry for the late answer!!!!
Let me tell you that i choosed enchantress for that tournament because i think that it's a great deck for an open meta and because i had good results with it in the past. Morever it wins rounds alone due to some peolple do not know how the deck works unlike combo decks where averybody, including the newbiest one, knows how make things harder.

I had never have problems with goyfs and delver. Maybe an early delver push very hard and if the opo has enought protection for your answers maybe difficult. But in general terms we have many form to get rid from him. In my opinion, enchantress does not need guys for winning / controling the game even "enchant guys". You can manage the fist part of the game with soft lock like grass + groove and then win with confinement / presense or RiP / energy field. This deck has tons of recurrence and can empty the oponent resources if you play wisely.
If you ask me which are my MVP i'd say guile, RIP (if you go for helm / rip version) and confinement / enery field. RiP has the additional benefit of making goyf a 0/1 vanilla and mongoose an useless 1/1.

On RoP: REd. It's not for gobbos but for burn. It can save your as* when you dont get an opening leyline and the pressure is to high to set the confinement lock. Nowadays i'm thinking on a blue verison with enery field which could make RoP unnecesary.
On the blue version and stony, if i move to GWu enchantress i'd replace stony with Mana Maze becuase stony goes against our helms. If run stony in that tournament because i didnt get the fields and got just 1 helm.

Cheers,

GC.

[GoldenCid]

Going back into enchantress!!!

i'm thinking on running Rip - Helm GWu enchantress. I was testing and my first concern that arises is if Field + Rip, replaces Confinement + Enchantress effect.
I was looking list of GWu and saw that SC is almost replaced by energy. Do you think that this is really healthy??

I think that a split of 2 SC and 2 EF is the right way but i want to read you comments!

And what about win conditions¿?

Helm + rip is enoguht?

GC.

[btm10]

I think that Energy Field would replace Confinement in GWu, or I'd go with a 3/1 split to start and change based on testing. I'd probably run 1 Sigil just to have a second win condition. More importantly, however, I think that going GWu unnecessarily weakens the control and tempo matchups compared to GW, GWr, or GWb. You don't have REB, you don't have Duress/Thoughtsieze or Words of Waste, and Replenish and Silence/Chant/Abeyance probably don't make the cut for reasons of space (the latter) or synergy (the former). Energy Field doesn't stop you from being targeted, so it seems like it won't improve the combo matchup much, either. I really, really don't see the benefit to going GWu unless you're going to go GU and play the Words of Wind combo.

[Freggle]

I was looking list of GWu and saw that SC is almost replaced by energy. Do you think that this is really healthy??

I will echo BTM here, and say no. I have played both, and the meta isn't right for Energy Field right now. Player shroud helps a lot since discard is on the rise, and it protects your Argothians from most edict effects.

Personally I find the GWu build to just add more variance (and ultimately more losses) because of the issue of having to hit 3 colors and a 2 card combo (RIP + EF).

Have you tried the GW version? Is there something your trying to beat by adding the :u:?

[GoldenCid]

Well, thank you so much for your impressions. The 3 colour mana base is not a concern for me but I admit that it’s weaker than a bicoloured one. Indeed, there is no specific match up that I want to improve by adding blue. I simply want to explode even more rest in peace. This card hurts many decks even those not entirely based in graveyard.
Energy field gives me a fast answer against some fast deck as well. It sets a soft lock by itself. Solitary confinement is a great card, probably the bests card in the deck but sometimes you have to invest many resources to set a safe lock. This is the line of thought for running GWu.
However GW is in my mind. It’s stupidly solid in terms of mana base. Lots of basics land and some non basics. It’s a good alternative; maybe I’ll give it a try with helm – rip + throne as win conditions

GC.

[GoldenCid]

Sooo.....sorry for double posting again but i wanted to share my list GW:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [US] Serra's Sanctum
4 [ZEN] Plains (1)
6 [ZEN] Forest (1)
1 [LG] Karakas
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [R] Savannah

// Creatures
4 [US] Argothian Enchantress

// Spells
2 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
2 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
1 [OD] Karmic Justice
4 [ON] Enchantress's Presence
1 [CFX] Sigil of the Empty Throne
4 [DIS] Utopia Sprawl
3 [U] Wild Growth
3 [TE] Mirri's Guile
4 [VI] Elephant Grass
3 [JU] Solitary Confinement
4 [IN] Sterling Grove
2 [AL] Helm of Obedience
3 [RTR] Rest in Peace
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 [OD] Karmic Justice
SB: 1 [RTR] Rest in Peace
SB: 1 [LG] Moat*
SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 3 [US] Carpet of Flowers
SB: 1 [VI] City of Solitude
SB: 1 [RTR] Sphere of Safety*
SB: 1 [7E] Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 [MR] Rule of Law

*What about this cards??? Does moat worth nowadays?? Any suggestion will be pretty welcomed!!!!

Cheers!!

GC!!

[btm10]

I don't really like Moat, especially when you have the option of Sphere of Safety instead. It doesn't require WW, which gives extra flexibility if you're trying to drop multiple white enchantments in a single turn.

Otherwise, in a deck with six tutors, do you think that the deck is a bit redundant? There are plenty of maindeckable things in the sideboard that might improve otherwise problematic matchups, and I'm not sure that I like Karmic Justice main anyway as your one-of. Do you run into a lot of decks with removal that gets around Grove? Wouldn't maindecking recursion of some sort be better anyway? I'm also not sure I like having no MD protection for the combo.

[frodoberghins]

hi guys, i'm testing this version of GWU Enchantress, with classic rip+field+helm but with a news ;)

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
1 [US] Serra's Sanctum
1 [P2] Plains (3)
1 [DPA] Island (2)
1 [B] Tundra
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [B] Tropical Island
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
6 [P2] Forest (2)

// Creatures
4 [US] Argothian Enchantress
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

// Spells
2 [US] Energy Field
3 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
3 [RTR] Rest in Peace
1 [AL] Helm of Obedience
2 [IN] Sterling Grove
1 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
1 [JU] Solitary Confinement
4 [ON] Enchantress's Presence
2 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
1 [RTR] Sphere of Safety
4 [DIS] Utopia Sprawl
4 [B] Wild Growth
2 [VI] Elephant Grass

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 2 [RTR] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [TSP] Harmonic Sliver
SB: 4 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 [US] Carpet of Flowers


Counterbalance+Sensei

what do you think about?

[GoldenCid]

I don't really like Moat, especially when you have the option of Sphere of Safety instead. It doesn't require WW, which gives extra flexibility if you're trying to drop multiple white enchantments in a single turn.

Otherwise, in a deck with six tutors, do you think that the deck is a bit redundant? There are plenty of maindeckable things in the sideboard that might improve otherwise problematic matchups, and I'm not sure that I like Karmic Justice main anyway as your one-of. Do you run into a lot of decks with removal that gets around Grove? Wouldn't maindecking recursion of some sort be better anyway? I'm also not sure I like having no MD protection for the combo.

WW is no a big problem most the time. What moat has over sphere is that it works by itself. However it's still an expensive card.

What do you mean with redundant? I feel that my deck solves the majority of troubles and i'd not MD anti combo cards other than confinement (pre side)

GC.

[Tropotos]

Hey there all. Long time since my last post. I've still been actively playing my list from my firsy place finish at pax last year and my top 8 finish at the duel for duels at Vestal ny at Jupiter games. You've all mentioned that theros brings us nothing but what about Nykthos? This card is bonkers even as a 1 of. Being able to serra's sanctum for green is very powerful. Thoughts? Also anyone plan on going to GP D.C?

[GoldenCid]

Hey there all. Long time since my last post. I've still been actively playing my list from my firsy place finish at pax last year and my top 8 finish at the duel for duels at Vestal ny at Jupiter games. You've all mentioned that theros brings us nothing but what about Nykthos? This card is bonkers even as a 1 of. Being able to serra's sanctum for green is very powerful. Thoughts? Also anyone plan on going to GP D.C?

Why make our strong mana base more vulnerable to wasteland?

[btm10]

@GoldenCid - By redundant, I mean you have a lot of 3 and 4-ofs, that, coupled with Guile and your draw engine, seem to make your deck not need the two Enlightened Tutors that are ostensibly just to grab Helm. If you're going the more Helm-focused route that's fine, but that version of the deck has its own thread and Freggle has been working on it. Otherwise, I'd rather drop those tutors for disruption, be it the third and fourth O-rings, Abeyance/Chant/Silence, whatever. The same goes for Karmic Justice, which seems like a random one-of unless you are facing a lot of enchantment removal.

Also - by the time you get to 2WW or 4W, Sphere also is going to effectively work by itself. If it doesn't, it doesn't matter because you've already lost.

@Tropotos I won't be at GP DC, but I am considering Nykthos, probably as a 1 of. The big hesitation I have with it isn't Wasteland, but rather that I don't frequently find myself needing a burst of green as opposed to white, and Sanctum is better in that regard.

[GoldenCid]

@GoldenCid - By redundant, I mean you have a lot of 3 and 4-ofs, that, coupled with Guile and your draw engine, seem to make your deck not need the two Enlightened Tutors that are ostensibly just to grab Helm. If you're going the more Helm-focused route that's fine, but that version of the deck has its own thread and Freggle has been working on it.

Where is it?

[Tropotos]

@Tropotos I won't be at GP DC, but I am considering Nykthos, probably as a 1 of. The big hesitation I have with it isn't Wasteland, but rather that I don't frequently find myself needing a burst of green as opposed to white, and Sanctum is better in that regard.

So I suppose I bring it up seeing as I run 2 sanctums and have not adopted a third since the legend rule change. Chaining sanctums is great but having the option for green can be great. I often use the white as colorless since my green count is so high I find myself needing more green to keep drawing. Having the option to have both nykthos and Sanctum out makes hard casting Emrakul pretty easy very early on. It's not really the goal of the deck to pump out flying spaghetti monsters very early but the fact that it is possible does seem strong. And about wastelands we all know we typically only drop sanctum the turn we plan on winning/changing the game.

Does anyone have any experience with nykthos? Do any of you guys play more sanctums now?

[anonymos]

I haven't had the funds to acquire much or do the time for paper testing. I've been debating on testing out commune with the gods and nykthos both in the tournament practice room on MTGO. I guess I can work on that some tonight and possibly tomorrow before work. I'm not certain about our green impulse because it skips lands, but being able to dig pretty deep and find som eof our lower count bullets seems nice to me.

[btm10]

So I suppose I bring it up seeing as I run 2 sanctums and have not adopted a third since the legend rule change. Chaining sanctums is great but having the option for green can be great. I often use the white as colorless since my green count is so high I find myself needing more green to keep drawing. Having the option to have both nykthos and Sanctum out makes hard casting Emrakul pretty easy very early on. It's not really the goal of the deck to pump out flying spaghetti monsters very early but the fact that it is possible does seem strong. And about wastelands we all know we typically only drop sanctum the turn we plan on winning/changing the game.

Does anyone have any experience with nykthos? Do any of you guys play more sanctums now?

I'm still at 2 Sanctums, too. I think I'd be looking to cut an enchantment for Nykthos, since I don't like running any mana-lighter than I currently am, though I'm not sure what I'd cut for them at the moment. I'll post a list once I get around to testing it.


I haven't had the funds to acquire much or do the time for paper testing. I've been debating on testing out commune with the gods and nykthos both in the tournament practice room on MTGO. I guess I can work on that some tonight and possibly tomorrow before work. I'm not certain about our green impulse because it skips lands, but being able to dig pretty deep and find som eof our lower count bullets seems nice to me.

I don't see any reason to test Commune with the Gods unless you're already at 4 Enlightened Tutor + 4 Grove. The only slot I can see it taking is the GSZ slot that seems to be popular, since it grabs Argothian and Enchantments. It fuels the Replenish-as-Yagmoth's Will strategy, but that seems like a completely different variant on the deck, albeit an interesting one that's probably worth testing (I'd start with a build running Argivian Find to recur Helm, just to throw out an idea). That being said, I'm not running GSZ, so I won't be testing Commune if my deck.

[ESG]

It fuels the Replenish-as-Yagmoth's Will strategy, but that seems like a completely different variant on the deck, albeit an interesting one that's probably worth testing (I'd start with a build running Argivian Find to recur Helm, just to throw out an idea). That being said, I'm not running GSZ, so I won't be testing Commune if my deck.

Huh?

Presumably you're running Rest in Peace if you're running Helm, which means you won't have a graveyard. I suppose you could cast them in reverse order, but if you're holding back your Rest in Peace, why are you running it in the first place?

[btm10]

Huh?

Presumably you're running Rest in Peace if you're running Helm, which means you won't have a graveyard. I suppose you could cast them in reverse order, but if you're holding back your Rest in Peace, why are you running it in the first place?

I don't usually cast Rest in Peace until I absolutely have to, but then again, I run Replenish. Outside of Dredge and RUG Delver, there aren't many common matchups that are both winnable and where I feel the need exile my opponents' graveyards. The bottom line is that the card isn't part of the "cast blind early in every match" package inhabited by Argothian Enchantress, Enchatnress's Presence, and Sylvan Library/Mirri's Guile. It's not even in the Elephant Grass/Sphere of Safety/Solitary Confinement set. It's a one- or two-of that you tutor for when you need to either shut down graveyards or win with RIP/Helm.

Using Commune with the Gods to fuel big Replenishes and as a general-purpose digging engine might work. I'm not so confident that I'm going to be building a deck right now to test this idea, especially with Enchantress being a marginal deck choice in the current meta. That shouldn't stop other people from trying it if they're interested, though.

[GoldenCid]

RIP is a card that i like casting. Maybe is not the first cmc = 2 card i drop but is a good play. I makes vanilla lots of creatures: goyf, reliquary, shaman, mongoose and so on. In general i'm glad when i see it in my hand.

[anonymos]

With True Name Nemesis running amuck, is it time to bring Moat back?

[btm10]

@GoldenCid: I don't see how your position on RIP differs from mine. I don't dislike casting it when necessary, but I don't drop it unless I need the effect. It's not clear to me that running (or testing) a Commune With the Gods / Replenish engine with Commune serving as fuel for Replenish and as a way to find Argothian Enchantress (or whatever enchantment you need) as being incompatible with running RIP or RIP/Helm, but it would require restructuring. I increasingly think this idea has merit, as it's potentially explosive and Replenish becomes an absolute must-counter while not tying you down to the Replenish plan if you dig and build your deck correctly.

Sphere of Safety and Elephant Grass both still stop TNN because neither directly interacts with the creatures. I guess if you're running The Abyss or Words of War as creature control it's time to reconsider. But if you aren't running those (or another form of targeted removal) as your creature control, True-Name Nemesis really doesn't change anything.

On another topic, I've recently decided to start testing Humility as a 1- or 2-of in the board against Sneak and Show and Omnitell. I realize that this plan has been used before, but as the numbers of these decks (especially the former) continue to rise, the environment might be better for it than it was a few months ago. Thoughts? Has anyone tested it recently?

[GoldenCid]

On another topic, I've recently decided to start testing Humility as a 1- or 2-of in the board against Sneak and Show and Omnitell. I realize that this plan has been used before, but as the numbers of these decks (especially the former) continue to rise, the environment might be better for it than it was a few months ago. Thoughts? Has anyone tested it recently?

Why humility over o-ring¿?

[btm10]

I'm already at 3 O. Ring (2 main, 1 board), and Humility has some advantages over O. Ring, like not being reliant on a comes into play ability that can be Stifled, and not being a targeted ability that doesn't work against True-Name Nemesis. Sneak is probably the better of the two SnT matchups because the answers just line up better (Blind Obedience, Aura of Silence, and Suppression Field are all at least playable to stop Sneak), while you're really just left with O. Ring and Leyline of Sanctity against Omnitell (I bring in Aura there too, but it's nowhere near as good), and there really aren't other answers. These decks are our primary problems, so I don't think that dedicating ~5 sb slots to them, especially if the cards are otherwise good (e.g., Aura of Silence against Miracles, Humility and Oblivion Ring against Delver, Blind Obedience against Elves) is unwarranted.

[ESG]

Humility is the best card vs. Sneak and Show, but it doesn't do anything vs. Omni-Tell. When I expect Sneak and Show, Humility is in my board, usually as a two-of.

One big disadvantage of Commune With the Gods is that it can't grab Replenish. Having enchantments in your graveyard is generally not advantageous. It opens you up to Surgical Extraction, which is a card I commonly face postboard. It also means you're running more sorceries instead of more enchantments, so you raise the chances of bricking when you need to string together enchantments. I could see Commune With the Gods being playable in a build without Green Sun's Zenith. If the emphasis was more on Replenish, I think the build could be OK, although it would likely be slower and thus would be more likely to lose to Delver decks.

[btm10]

I've had Omni-Tell players try to "Just Win" by SandT-ing Emrakul early if they have him and only half of the combo, especially if I had turn 0 Leyline, rather than go to the trouble of finding the other half and Wishing for Wipe Away. Humility is totally worth it as a 1-of in these situations, since things like Elephant Grass are pretty weak anyway. And if you can get Grove + Leyline (not totally out of the question post board), you force them to use the Emrakul plan.

[ESG]

I'm tempted to say your Omni-Tell opponents weren't very skilled, but if that works for you, then no need to stop. Free wins are free wins.

The Omni-Tell matchup is usually quite poor, and I probably wouldn't leave in Elephant Grass. If the Omni-Tell player draws his deck, the game is basically over. You can't beat that many free spells. The best chance Enchantress has is racing while sandbagging an O. Ring. Your example above should actually be double Grove and Leyline. Omni-Tell can just play a bounce spell otherwise, then counter the Grove when you try to replay it, then discard Emrakul to reshuffle after having sculpted a perfect 7, then Enter the Infinite again the next turn (after Forcing anything relevant on your turn) to get the bounce spell back, bounce your Leyline and kill you via Cunning Wish No. 2. This also assumes the Omni-Tell player has only one bounce spell to wish for. If the configuration is, say, 1 Wipe Away and 1 Rushing River, then there's no need to even reshuffle and pass the turn. If you DO have double Grove and Leyline up, then the sequence becomes 1) draw deck, 2) cast Emrakul for free, 3) take extra turn, 4) annihilate your board, 5) bounce any remaining obstacle, in the unlikely event that you have any relevant permanents left, then either Wish for Research and put extra cards back in the deck OR just play another Enter the Infinite (putting Enter the Infinite on top to clash with) and kill you via Wish --> Release the Ants.

I think hoping for Leyline plus triple Grove (one to tutor up your one-of Humility), then Humility, and having everything resolve is a pipe dream. If I was determined to pit Enchantress against Omni-Tell and wanted to improve my odds, I think I would run multiple copies of Choke. Omni-Tell usually needs to play cantrips for a few turns in order to find the combo pieces in addition to Cunning Wish (for Trickbind) to stop your O. Ring. Any Choke that resolves will gain you several turns, barring a loaded Omni-Tell hand, because they will need to have more lands in addition to all the other pieces.

Edit: If I was allowing myself to play really narrow sideboard cards, I would run 4 copies of Iona. That forces the Omni-Tell player to go off via Dream Halls. Iona is also somewhat castable via Serra's Sanctum.

[btm10]

I'm not saying OmniTell is a good matchup; it's probably the worst matchup we have, and the main thing keeping Enchantress from being a serious deck right now. Other than offering that clarification, I agree with everything you said. My point was that Grove-Grove-Leyline forces them to use Emrakul (which is hosed by Humility), while Grove-Leyline is similarly good because the builds running two bounce effects are somewhat uncommon. It's not a good matchup, but these are ways to make it tractable aside from the Leyline + O.Ring + Aura of Silence package.

[ESG]

Incidentally, Rest in Peace is decent in that matchup, since it prevents Omni-Tell from reusing the same bounce spell.

[btm10]

Again, I agree. With all the discussion that's been happening about True-Name Nemesis (especially since SCG Oakland), I'd like to try and temporarily shift the conversation toward where this leaves Enchantress. I think it's still a Tier 2 deck, but I think we come out ahead unless it causes a huge surge in the number of SnT (broadly defined) and ANT. If more people are playing TNN/SFM stoneblade and Miracles I think we're better off than in the pre-TNN metagame. If the strong Affinity showing is a sign of things to come (I doubt it, but we can hope), then that's even better because Stony Silence is excellent against Storm and Miracles and essentially autowins vs. Affinity if it connects and you have answers to their current threat(s).

I don't want to get optimistic too early, because I don't think that the makeup of the metagame is going to shift enough in the Stoneblade/Miracles/Affinity direction to reduce the quantity of combo we face to levels where Enchantress becomes a serious deck. But what does anyone else think? The only change to the maindeck that I think is coming is swapping Sacred Mesa in for Words of War in the UWr build and maybe dropping The Abyss from the UWb version for maybe the 3rd MD O. Ring or for a Runed Halo. I haven't tested either of these yet, but that's my current thinking. I know ESG thinks that TNN is going to shake the format up more than I do, so I'm especially interested in hearing what (s)he thinks.

[GoldenCid]

In response todo tnn i shifted to GWu

[Freggle]

Again, I agree. With all the discussion that's been happening about True-Name Nemesis (especially since SCG Oakland), I'd like to try and temporarily shift the conversation toward where this leaves Enchantress. I think it's still a Tier 2 deck, but I think we come out ahead unless it causes a huge surge in the number of SnT (broadly defined) and ANT. If more people are playing TNN/SFM stoneblade and Miracles I think we're better off than in the pre-TNN metagame. If the strong Affinity showing is a sign of things to come (I doubt it, but we can hope), then that's even better because Stony Silence is excellent against Storm and Miracles and essentially autowins vs. Affinity if it connects and you have answers to their current threat(s).

I don't want to get optimistic too early, because I don't think that the makeup of the metagame is going to shift enough in the Stoneblade/Miracles/Affinity direction to reduce the quantity of combo we face to levels where Enchantress becomes a serious deck. But what does anyone else think? The only change to the maindeck that I think is coming is swapping Sacred Mesa in for Words of War in the UWr build and maybe dropping The Abyss from the UWb version for maybe the 3rd MD O. Ring or for a Runed Halo. I haven't tested either of these yet, but that's my current thinking. I know ESG thinks that TNN is going to shake the format up more than I do, so I'm especially interested in hearing what (s)he thinks.

I too agree that this is good for Enchantress. This means we can count on carpet of flowers to pull us out of taxing counter magic and rely on more traditional Solitary Confinement and Sphere of Safety.

Sphere is good for making Elves & SnT winnable too. On top of your additional o rings.

Different subject has anyone tried running Gitaxian Probe in Enchantress? ...I have been testing it for just under a month and it has swung my win percentages up. The perfect information let you know when to play around snare or pierce ...or if they have the stifle ...or when you should lead with RIP over argothian.

There was also a game where it revealed a flicker wisp and I took a completely different line and won the game as a result. Bottom line 3 are in my list and performing well. Has anyone else tried it?

[btm10]

I haven't tested Probe, but your experience with it seems to parallel my experience with Duress/Thoughtseize in WGb. Have you considered going with something like GoldenCid's route and running WGu? Like I said a few pages back, I'm not usually a supporter of that route but if you're already at 3-4 MD blue cards, there are plenty of blue enchantments to consider to get up to enough blue to run Force out of the board alongside Mindbreak Trap (which I think is your tech, right Freggle?) and then we might be talking a serious deck. In the Eye of Chaos might be better against combo and control than is Gaddock Teeg because it doesn't cut us off of our CMC 4 spells, especially if we have a way to survive the extra turn or half turn required to get the extra mana. Energy Field is worse than Solitary Confinement in the early game, but Field/RIP is a hard lock against strategies that use damage to win in the way that Worship/Argothian Enchantress used to be. You'd probably still want some number of Confinements to stall until the lock was active, but you could also use Leyline of Sanctity (and I strongly support at least 1 MD Leyline anyway) for player shroud. Mystic Remora definitely pairs well with Force/MBT out of the board and can make sure we have the blue card to pitch.

I might brew this up today to at least have a list to work with. I've got a lot of blue enchantments to look at.

[Freggle]

I haven't tested Probe, but your experience with it seems to parallel my experience with Duress/Thoughtseize in WGb. Have you considered going with something like GoldenCid's route and running WGu? Like I said a few pages back, I'm not usually a supporter of that route but if you're already at 3-4 MD blue cards, there are plenty of blue enchantments to consider to get up to enough blue to run Force out of the board alongside Mindbreak Trap (which I think is your tech, right Freggle?) and then we might be talking a serious deck. In the Eye of Chaos might be better against combo and control than is Gaddock Teeg because it doesn't cut us off of our CMC 4 spells, especially if we have a way to survive the extra turn or half turn required to get the extra mana. Energy Field is worse than Solitary Confinement in the early game, but Field/RIP is a hard lock against strategies that use damage to win in the way that Worship/Argothian Enchantress used to be. You'd probably still want some number of Confinements to stall until the lock was active, but you could also use Leyline of Sanctity (and I strongly support at least 1 MD Leyline anyway) for player shroud. Mystic Remora definitely pairs well with Force/MBT out of the board and can make sure we have the blue card to pitch.

I might brew this up today to at least have a list to work with. I've got a lot of blue enchantments to look at.

I really hadn't considered it, but I had a flight today and so I took the time to draft a list I might try now with GWu. There is a good deal of dis-synergy with In the Eye of Chaos and Force of Will, but perhaps not too much that you wouldn't run it.

This is what I jotted down on paper:

Creatures (8)
4 Argothian Enchantress
3 Erayo, Soratami Ascendant
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Sorceries (5)
2 Replenish
3 Gitaxian Probe
2 Green Sun's Zenith

Instants (4)
4 Force of Will

Enchantments (21)
4 Attunement
2 Dovescape
4 Enchantress's Presence
3 Ground Seal
4 Wild Growth

Lands (20)
4 Serra's Sanctum
16 Other Mana

Maybe Board:
Mystic Remora
Oblivion Ring
Carpet of Flowers
Mindbreak Trap
Elephant Grass
Sphere of Safety
Solitary Confinement
Rest in Peace
Energy Field

The above list is a sketch. Not sure if the Green Sun's are needed in this build. If not they would likely become Solitary Confinements as I do belive about (2) should be main.

Some things to note:

This list explores Attunement as Enchantress's "Brainstorm" allowing this deck to dig for the right answers as opposed to tutor for them. It is also the back-up plan if we could not force the first enchantress effect through.

Attunement also fuels Replenish which is why in this list I traded Replenish for Helm. Since this list can easily case more than (4) cards a turn without really trying Erayo seem like a worthy test to create a soft lock.

Dovescape vs. Sigil of the Empty Throne -- Since Dovescape is blue and also messes with the stack it got the nod. It is a combo killer. If this list finds room for Dream Halls this list can make infinite birds.

Step 1: Have (2) Enchantress's out.

Step 2: Get Dream halls on the battlefield

Step 3: Cast everything with dream halls constanly replacing the (2) cards spent with enchantress effects.

Step 4: when your deck is low use Attunement to discard Emrakul

Step 5: Repeat


...a note on Emrakul since the new Legend rule casting Emrakul got at least (4) times easier. It is not longer the "if all else fails" plan it was before it is a reliable kill.

Ground Seal - Seal gets the nod becuase it cantrips itself, and protects your yard for huge Replenishes

All-in-all if it works like it does in my mind it would be a pile of fun as you could size up your opponents with probe and craft the best possible line out of the cards you have in hand. i.e. will you play fair and cast all your stuff? ...or will you bait counters and load up the yard and lock out with Replenish.

i'm going to try and get it together this week on MTGO and see how it drives.

[btm10]

Since we're just brewing I'm going to post where I'm at - I went with a more traditional strategy and so this is more recognizable as Enchantress. I've focused more on shoring up the existing good matchups (Stoneblade, Miracles) game 1, with the countermagic coming from the board for games 2 and 3.

Mana (21)
5 Forest
4 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
2 Savannah
1 Tropical Island
2 Serra's Sanctum
3 Mox Diamond

Non-Enchantments (3)
3 Gitaxian Probe

Draw/Manipulation/Engine(14)
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Sterling Grove
2 Sylvan Library

4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
3 Elephant Grass
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 Sphere of Safety
1 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Back to Basics
1 Solitary Confinement
1 Energy Field
1 Rest in Peace
1 Words of Wind

Sideboard

3 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Rest in Peace
1 Blind Obedience
4 Force of Will
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Mystic Remora

I'm on the fence about Back to Basics, on Sigil of the Empty Throne vs. Dovescape, Detention Sphere vs. Oblivion Ring, In the Eye of Chaos, and Words of Wind. I'm clearly not running the Words of Wind combo, but it does look like it might serve as non-targeted board control and so is worth testing. I think two of the three 2:u: Enchantments (In the Eye of Chaos, Words of Wind, and Back to Basics) belong in the deck, but I'm not sure which two yet. Mox Diamond is an absolute house. It opens up some extremely powerful lines of play, and you'll frequently have 5 mana by turn 3, which puts you in a much better position than Enchantress usually finds itself. The blue fill-ins for white staples (D. Sphere, Dovescape) might be the right choices so that the Force of Will has support postboard.

The best line in the deck seems to be turn 1 probe ---> Land, Mox Diamond, Argothian Enchantress, assuming the way is clear.

I'll start testing your build in addition to mine; I really like the Attunement/Replenish engine, but I think some number of Confinements should replace the GSZs. What do you think about Chrome Mox or Mox Diamond as acceleration? I feel like you want 8 accelerants at least, and Utopia Sprawl is excellent.

[aahz]

I like Lotus Petal as acceleration and am really happy with my 2xPetal, 3xSprawl, 4xWildGrowth package. Mox Diamond seems really greedy given how few lands are actually run. Running Chrome Mox is understandable, but I just don't enjoy playing it.

Also, Enlightened Tutor in your list seems good. Curious why it's not there as at least a 1-of.

[honz]

I have been playing the blue splash for a while, just a few thoughts:

Energy field is just too good to not be playing. Your entire deck is permanents, and if you are drawing so many cards that you have to discard, then you are already winning the game. Add to that rest in peace, which is strong on its own, and comes in as the right type (enchantment), color, and cc. I'm sure this has been beaten to death, but I would never run blue without these two cards.

Ancestral knowledge is at least worth trying. I cant decide if I like it or not...

Back to basics should atleast be in the sideboard to some degree.

Words of wind is something I usually board out but like to have in my maindeck. One enchantress + words + 1-2 wildgrowth/utopia sprawl and you can start controlling the game real quick. Add a serra's sanctum or a sigil to the mix, and you can start doing some madness.

I seem to put mindbreak trap in my board one day, and take it out the next. It seems so close to being good, but just not quite there...

[Freggle]

i'm going to try and get it together this week on MTGO and see how it drives.

So when I wrote that I didn't realize how much this deck would cost on MTGO so I made a budget version:

3 Solitary Confinement
2 Replenish
1 Sphere of Saftey
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Attunement
4 Abundant Growth
1 Elephant Grass
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
4 Argothian Enchantress
3 Ground Seal
4 Enchantress's Presence
1 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Dovescape
1 Emrakul, the aeons Torn
8 Forest
4 Windswept heath
4 Serra's Sanctum
1 Plains
2 Breeding Pool

In spite of this deck poor mana base and untested theories I was able to rock this pile to a 3-0 run on MTGO tournament practice before I had to head out for the night.

Attunement + Replenish is AN ABSOLUTE HOUSE of an engine.

I beat a mid to late game deed handedly. replenishing everything back returning the Attunements to hand and discarding another pile of enchantments to replenish.

This deck might also like Decree of Silence + Opalescence to be trully unfair.

Bottom line. The deck is powerful, I'm just wondering how to tune it. I wonder if this can be transformationally boarded to Helm/RIP and vice versa because I thin both thrive in opposite metas.

Dovescape not sure if it's right.

[Poron]

enchantress is good basically for easy access to RiP Field combo and Sterling Grove. Replenish, Attunement etc. looks very old fashioned

[Freggle]

enchantress is good basically for easy access to RiP Field combo and Sterling Grove. Replenish, Attunement etc. looks very old fashioned

I agree with you to an extent, but I have played 8 matches in tournament practice with the list below and have gone 7-1 (granted a small sample.) There is also room for a lot of improvement. Attunement / Replenish is a very real thing & Dovescape just crushes unsuspecting foes, and seals up combo for good.

The only loss was to Cephalid Breakfast

Beat (from what I remember):
Manaless dredge
High Tide
Dark Maverick
Jund
control something


3 Solitary Confinement
2 Replenish
1 Sphere of Safety
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Attunement
4 Abundant Growth
1 Elephant Grass
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
4 Argothian Enchantress
3 Ground Seal
4 Enchantress's Presence
2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Dovescape
1 Emrakul, the aeons Torn
8 Forest
4 Windswept heath
4 Serra's Sanctum
1 Plains
1 Breeding Pool
1 Karakas

SB (14) oops just noticed:
2 Oblivion Ring
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Mindbreak Trap
4 Carpet of Flowers
1 Gaddock Teeg

Edit: I may just be crazy enough to test Purphoros, God of the Forge in here since it can be replenished and/or cast through Dovescape to turn Dovescape into a machine gun if for whatever reason you can not attack and Emrakul will not do the job (yeah unlikely.)

Additionally, I think force can be really good in here since at any point Attunement can be returned to your hand to pitch to force as well as loot and set-up that fattie Replenish in the process.

[anonymos]

Edit: I may just be crazy enough to test Purphoros, God of the Forge in here since it can be replenished and/or cast through Dovescape to turn Dovescape into a machine gun if for whatever reason you can not attack and Emrakul will not do the job (yeah unlikely.)


Someone may have to lay off the egg nog a bit. I also may have to look into this. I think I'd just need Attunement and Emrakul to play it. And maybe 2 more Sanctum.

[btm10]

So after preliminary testing here's the list I've got:

5 Forest
4 Windswept Heath
4 Plains
2 Serra's Sanctum
2 Savannah
1 Tropical Island
1 Misty Rainforest/1 Tropical Island
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Sterling Grove
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
2 Elephant Grass
3 Gitaxian Probe
2 Solitary Confinement
2 Detention Sphere
2 Ancestral Knowledge/Sylvan Library
2 Replenish
1 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Sphere of Safety
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 Rest in Peace
1 In the Eye of Chaos
1 Suppression Field
1 Helm of Obedience

Sideboard (as it currently stands)
1 Detention Sphere
3 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Rest in Peace
1 Blind Obedience
2 Mindbreak Trap/1 MBT + 1 Back to Basics OR 1 Back to Basics + 1 In the Eye of Chaos
4 Force of Will
1 Dread of Night
2 Carpet of Flowers

The slots with "/" are up in the air. I haven't been as happy with the Attunement/Replenish builds that Freggle has been working on, but that's mostly due to my discomfort with Ground Seal as my graveyard protection and a topic for another post. The combo matchups are significantly improved here, especially postboard. You still lose ~55-60% against Omnitell, but that matchup was previously a lot worse. ANT is close to 50/50 postboard, while Belcher is a bit worse than that. As I mentioned in the other enchantress thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24692-Developmental-Enchantress-with-Rest-In-Peace-Helm/page10), In the Eye of Chaos is excellent in all of those matchups, and is pretty much solely responsible for the improvement in the combo matchups preboard. I'm quite pleased with Detention Sphere in the O. Ring slots, though I'd still like to find room for a Runed Halo somewhere. Part of me wants to run Wrath of God or Supreme Verdict in the Dread of Night slot, but that's probably a bad idea. Force has been great out of the board, especially if you already have In the Eye of Chaos out and can Force their removal, even though it costs 5 extra. Despite that, I'm thoroughly unimpressed with Mindbreak Trap, but that might just be because I haven't tested the storm matchups enough. There are a lot of things I'd like to test in that slot, as you can tell. The D&T matchup is a little worse than the more traditional builds, but it's still one of our better ones. Everything else is pretty much as it was before the changes.

[btm10]

Sorry to double post, but I wanted to update some of the testing results. Honz's Ancestral Knowledge suggestion was excellent once I figured out how to make the most of it. It's a little weaker than Sylvan or Mirri's Guile in the early game, but it is much stronger in the mid-to-late game where it can serve as a tutor, a Mana Severance, and a way to make sure you keep hitting cards to feed Confinement. I've been less than impressed with Energy Field (as shown by the list above). It seems like a two-card win more combo unless you're running more RIPs. I did try -2 Elephant Grass, +1 RIP, +1 Energy Field, but that made Replenish far worse and hurt the Blade and Jund matchups overall. I'm currently running a single Wrath of God out of the board, although that might become Terminus because of Ancestral Knowledge.

[sun tzu]

has anyone tried parallax wave + opalescence combo?

[andrebonotto]

Hey Freggle,

Congrats for your 43rd place at SCG Orlando! :smile:

It was nice to see Enchantress on the Deck Tech (http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/deck_tech_enchantress_with_jef.html) - but it was also a little annoying that Reuben just did not give you enough space to talk... :rolleyes: ... [SHRUG] ... Interviewers ... [SHRUG].

[Freggle]

has anyone tried parallax wave + opalescence combo?
This (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24374-Developmental-Enchantment-Stompy&highlight=paralax+wave) is the closest thing I know of, but it's not in an Enchantress shell. I would be very interested to hear from anyone who has tried it.


Hey Freggle,

Congrats for your 43rd place at SCG Orlando! :smile:

It was nice to see Enchantress on the Deck Tech (http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/deck_tech_enchantress_with_jef.html) - but it was also a little annoying that Reuben just did not give you enough space to talk... :rolleyes: ... [SHRUG] ... Interviewers ... [SHRUG].

Thank you. Ruben was really nice, and an all around awesome guy. I think he did the world a service becuase I can talk about Enchantress for hours. ...or lifetimes if you ask my GF.

Upon refection I really wish I could have finished better. ...and looking back on it I think if I had a bit more experience under my belt I think I could have gotten to at least the top 32. I detail this in my tournament report whenever I have reflected on the day enough to write the real lesson I got out of it.

Looking around I was the only Enchantress player there, and that to me is a bit sad. ...although I would hate to loose to my favorite deck. There is a general misconception that Enchantress is a bad choice, but I disagree. The deck is as strong as ever, list just need to adapt as fast as others do. Glad you enjoyed it, and I hope to see you one day in the same light discussing Wild Growths.

[andrebonotto]

(...)
Thank you. Ruben was really nice, and an all around awesome guy. I think he did the world a service becuase I can talk about Enchantress for hours. ...or lifetimes if you ask my GF.

Upon refection I really wish I could have finished better. ...and looking back on it I think if I had a bit more experience under my belt I think I could have gotten to at least the top 32. I detail this in my tournament report whenever I have reflected on the day enough to write the real lesson I got out of it.

Looking around I was the only Enchantress player there, and that to me is a bit sad. ...although I would hate to loose to my favorite deck. There is a general misconception that Enchantress is a bad choice, but I disagree. The deck is as strong as ever, list just need to adapt as fast as others do. Glad you enjoyed it, and I hope to see you one day in the same light discussing Wild Growths.

LOL... :smile: Thanks for the reply. I'm eager to read your report, whenever you are able to post it!

Although I have never really played with the deck, I consider myself an "enthusiast" on it, since I really love the deck's style/flavor. :smile:

In fact, I'm slowly acquiring the staples to build the deck and be able to play it, and to a really moderate budget like mine, it's really motivating to see your Moat-less list do well.

Talking about Wild Growths... Your list looks more designed to concentrate on the lower curve. It seems interesting, and I could see the effects of it on the video of your match against Death and Taxes (I think it was Round 6). Boy, that opposing Thalia sure did some damage to the deck's speed, and it was a relief that you could draw all those green 1CC enchantments to help recover your mana, draw cards to maintain your Confinement, and be able to win your G2... :tongue:

Sincerely,

- André

[sun tzu]

This (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24374-Developmental-Enchantment-Stompy&highlight=paralax+wave) is the closest thing I know of, but it's not in an Enchantress shell. I would be very interested to hear from anyone who has tried it.



Thank you. Ruben was really nice, and an all around awesome guy. I think he did the world a service becuase I can talk about Enchantress for hours. ...or lifetimes if you ask my GF.

Upon refection I really wish I could have finished better. ...and looking back on it I think if I had a bit more experience under my belt I think I could have gotten to at least the top 32. I detail this in my tournament report whenever I have reflected on the day enough to write the real lesson I got out of it.

Looking around I was the only Enchantress player there, and that to me is a bit sad. ...although I would hate to loose to my favorite deck. There is a general misconception that Enchantress is a bad choice, but I disagree. The deck is as strong as ever, list just need to adapt as fast as others do. Glad you enjoyed it, and I hope to see you one day in the same light discussing Wild Growths.
here is the list i was testing for the parallax wave + opalescence combo version of enchantress. its super fun to play. im not sure its the best version of this deck, but it certainly attacks from an odd angle that most people wont know how to play against. it is vulnerable to countermagic, and graveyard hate a bit, too (because of replenish being a 1 shot kill effectively when you have a critical mass of those combo pieces in your graveyard). that being said, its pretty easy to patch up that weakness with GSZ for 1 vexing shusher main and 3 more in the sideboard (although that might even be overkill).

anyways, my list:

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence

1 Eternal Witness
1 Vexing Shusher

4 Elephant Grass
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
2 Trace of Abundance
3 Mirri's Guile

4 Parallax Wave
3 Opalescence
2 Replenish

1 Dryad Arbor
2 Plains
2 Serra's Sanctum
3 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
8 Forest

Sideboard
3 Vexing Shusher
1 Replenish
1 Moat
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Sterling Grove
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Trygon Predator
2 Scavenging Ooze

[waSP]

What are your percentages for going off with this build sun tzu?

[anonymos]

here is the list i was testing for the parallax wave + opalescence combo version of enchantress. its super fun to play. im not sure its the best version of this deck, but it certainly attacks from an odd angle that most people wont know how to play against. it is vulnerable to countermagic, and graveyard hate a bit, too (because of replenish being a 1 shot kill effectively when you have a critical mass of those combo pieces in your graveyard). that being said, its pretty easy to patch up that weakness with GSZ for 1 vexing shusher main and 3 more in the sideboard (although that might even be overkill).


2 Sterling Grove

I would cut this part. It breaks up your ability to eat EVERY creature they play for the rest of the game. I know it's in the sideboard, but it still isn't helpful. The only enchantment removal currently popular is Deed and Q. Pridemage as far as I've seen. Neither is exactly common anymore.

[domajm32]

hello enchantress community! I've started playing enchantress about 1yr ago or so very occasionally when my lgs was running legacy (usually once a month). I was doing quite well in the aggro heavy meta. In a couple of weeks my lgs is going to be running a sizable legacy event and I was thinking about showing up with enchantress.
I know that there is going to be at least 1 pox deck and several combo variants ANT and T.E.S mostly if I remember right. My question is what is our best defense against those vile combo decks?? Also I only have 3 sanctums sadly is that enough to run the emrakul win con?

[sun tzu]

What are your percentages for going off with this build sun tzu?honestly i havent tested enough to know percentages against the field.
I would cut this part. It breaks up your ability to eat EVERY creature they play for the rest of the game. I know it's in the sideboard, but it still isn't helpful. The only enchantment removal currently popular is Deed and Q. Pridemage as far as I've seen. Neither is exactly common anymore.ahh good point.