[Deck] Solitaire (Enchantress)

[btm10]

I would cut this part. It breaks up your ability to eat EVERY creature they play for the rest of the game. I know it's in the sideboard, but it still isn't helpful. The only enchantment removal currently popular is Deed and Q. Pridemage as far as I've seen. Neither is exactly common anymore.

Abrupt Decay is also very common and hits a lot of your core enchantments (Presence, Elephant Grass, Guile, Wild Growth effects, etc.). I wouldn't skimp on the tutoring, especially when it synergizes with Replenish. I'd drop Vexing Shusher for City of Solitude and Witness for Argivian Find or a third Replenish or a Ground Seal. I don't see a reason to use creatures out of the board to kill noncreature permanents when there are enchantments that do the job just as well and fuel both your engine and your kill. dont

All that being said, I haven't played the deck, so I have no idea how it stacks up against any of the other forms of Enchantress.


hello enchantress community! I've started playing enchantress about 1yr ago or so very occasionally when my lgs was running legacy (usually once a month). I was doing quite well in the aggro heavy meta. In a couple of weeks my lgs is going to be running a sizable legacy event and I was thinking about showing up with enchantress.
I know that there is going to be at least 1 pox deck and several combo variants ANT and T.E.S mostly if I remember right. My question is what is our best defense against those vile combo decks?? Also I only have 3 sanctums sadly is that enough to run the emrakul win con?

I can't comment on Freggle's build, but I can say that you have ways of beating combo at your disposal. Leyline of Sanctity and Solitary Confinement are excellent for stalling because of the player shroud, but most opponents have bounce or straight up removal for them, so keeping Grove up is important. Pox is especially vulnerable to Leyline as well because they rely heavily on targeted discard alongside the Pox effects, and Liliana's most threatening abilities are also targeted. Once you get a stall card in place against combo it will usually buy you anywhere from 0 to 3 turns, so it helps to be running the RIP-Helm kill or Emrakul so you can win quickly and don't have to durdle making Pegasi/Angels/activating Words of War.



And again, congrats on your finish Freggle! I'll try to put in a strong showing in C-bus (although I'm currently torn between playing Enchantress and playing a Delver deck).

[Freggle]

LOL... :smile: Thanks for the reply. I'm eager to read your report, whenever you are able to post it!

Although I have never really played with the deck, I consider myself an "enthusiast" on it, since I really love the deck's style/flavor. :smile:

In fact, I'm slowly acquiring the staples to build the deck and be able to play it, and to a really moderate budget like mine, it's really motivating to see your Moat-less list do well.

Talking about Wild Growths... Your list looks more designed to concentrate on the lower curve. It seems interesting, and I could see the effects of it on the video of your match against Death and Taxes (I think it was Round 6). Boy, that opposing Thalia sure did some damage to the deck's speed, and it was a relief that you could draw all those green 1CC enchantments to help recover your mana, draw cards to maintain your Confinement, and be able to win your G2... :tongue:

Sincerely,

- André

Well, I encourage you to keep collecting the pieces. Enchantress and all it's variants can reward you. ...and your right I did everything in my power to push the curve as low as possible to make it as explosive as possible and to "break" Sanctum to beyond unfair.

The goal is to stick 2 enchantress's and combo off over the next 1-3 turns drawing the deck and choosing the better win based on the disruption you see. Karakas could have possibly done me a lot of good in tempo vs Death and Taxes so I may go back up to 2. Even if it's wastelanded that one turn of development should be enough especially if I had stuck the two enchantress's already. Virtually the whole G1 if not the whole game 1 I had the combo in hand, I just couldn't break out of the tempo loss of Thalia, but like the commentators said that was a textbook game by D&T and I was satisfied with how I fought through the disruption aside from clearly declaring my draw trigger sat the end although it wasn't relevant to the game as I looked at the cards I missed post game.

Moat is good, but simply outclassed in Enchantress by Sphere of Safety as it stops all the fliers that plague Legacy today.


list

Thank you for the list sun tzu. There is a lot of interesting things happening in this list that I will certainly tinker around with.


hello enchantress community! I've started playing enchantress about 1yr ago or so very occasionally when my lgs was running legacy (usually once a month). I was doing quite well in the aggro heavy meta. In a couple of weeks my lgs is going to be running a sizable legacy event and I was thinking about showing up with enchantress.
I know that there is going to be at least 1 pox deck and several combo variants ANT and T.E.S mostly if I remember right. My question is what is our best defense against those vile combo decks?? Also I only have 3 sanctums sadly is that enough to run the emrakul win con?


btm10 already hit the basics, but I would include Stony Silence in the mix. The main way both TES and ANT win are through the Lions Eye Diamond / Infernal Tutor combo. If you cut them off of both Lions Eye Diamond and Petal they have to cantrip into bounce, or win through Rituals both of which is not easy. Especially if you start the game with Leyline. Most lists of ANT or TES only have 1 to 2 Chain of Vapor in the board so finding it through can tripping is a tall order.

I would also play with a full set of Green Sun's and Gaddock in the board. This way you can very likely keep the hate coming every turn and out numbering there ability to bounce it. Gaddock Turns off Ad Nauseam, and the wins Tendrils and Empty the Warrens.

It is also worth noting that RIP stops the Past in Flames line to use their chain of vapor twice.

All those items combined give you a decent chance to beat those decks.

Pox Player shroud is the name of the game again. Again the 4 GSZ will allow you to stay ahead of the edicts and out draw their game plan. RIP stops most of their wins.

Yes 3 sanctums is enough to run Emrakul, but you would be better off with the full 4. If you have Exploration you can experiment with that. I was testing it and it does make the deck even more explosive (and might be decent tech against D&T) I would consider cutting the Abundant Growths to do so, but Abundant is deceptively VERY good.



And again, congrats on your finish Freggle! I'll try to put in a strong showing in C-bus (although I'm currently torn between playing Enchantress and playing a Delver deck).

Thank you. btm10, I'm not sure how well you know whichever Delver variant you are considering running, but you seem to know you way around Enchantress, and it is not a bad deck right now. You will choose what you will choose, but like I said in Orlando I was the only person I know of that registered with Argothians, although a good handful of Enchantress players came up to talk over the day about how they like the list. There is a general misconception that Enchantress is a bad deck in this meta, and it is my opinion that it is simply untrue.

The fact that you have 1 person out of 200+ rocking an Archetype it makes it hard for it to get on peoples radar as a DTB as that is actually a list of decks that are popular. i.e. the more people that run them the higher the stats are they will be in the top 8. Keep that in mind when you are making this decision. What you should really ask yourself is what do you belive in more your ability to pilot delver, or your ability to pilot Enchantress?

Honestly, if they are equal I would go as far as to say Enchantress in the hands of a skilled player is likely the better choice right now, as many people don't know what you are doing, or simply do not have the tools to fight it.

Edit: Someone (Darers) just 3-1'ed the daily yesterday (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg%2Fdigital%2Fmagiconline%2Ftourn%2F6591910) with Enchantress. When more people rock it the numbers will show.

[andrebonotto]

Well, I encourage you to keep collecting the pieces. Enchantress and all it's variants can reward you. ...and your right I did everything in my power to push the curve as low as possible to make it as explosive as possible and to "break" Sanctum to beyond unfair.

The goal is to stick 2 enchantress's and combo off over the next 1-3 turns drawing the deck and choosing the better win based on the disruption you see. Karakas could have possibly done me a lot of good in tempo vs Death and Taxes so I may go back up to 2. Even if it's wastelanded that one turn of development should be enough especially if I had stuck the two enchantress's already. Virtually the whole G1 if not the whole game 1 I had the combo in hand, I just couldn't break out of the tempo loss of Thalia, but like the commentators said that was a textbook game by D&T and I was satisfied with how I fought through the disruption aside from clearly declaring my draw trigger sat the end although it wasn't relevant to the game as I looked at the cards I missed post game.

Moat is good, but simply outclassed in Enchantress by Sphere of Safety as it stops all the fliers that plague Legacy today. (...)


Thanks for the incentive!

Since I'm used to playing Glimpse of Nature and drawing a bunch of Elves (http://magiccards.info/7e/pt/253.html), switch to playing an Argothian Enchantress and drawing a bunch of Wild Growths seems appealing to me. :smile:
And also, it happens that I have always kept my lone Serra's Sanctum in my collection, since I had opened it in the Urza's Saga set. Time to save money to complete my playset now... :smile:



(...)

I would go as far as to say Enchantress in the hands of a skilled player is likely the better choice right now, as many people don't know what you are doing, or simply do not have the tools to fight it.


I think the bolded part became evident on the mentioned Round 6 of yours against Death & Taxes, on the several times that your opponent struggled with his Phyrexian Revoker in hand, trying to decide what to name with it. The commentators remarked it many times.


Sincerely,

- André

[Potawo]

I agree with you to an extent, but I have played 8 matches in tournament practice with the list below and have gone 7-1 (granted a small sample.) There is also room for a lot of improvement. Attunement / Replenish is a very real thing & Dovescape just crushes unsuspecting foes, and seals up combo for good.

The only loss was to Cephalid Breakfast

Beat (from what I remember):
Manaless dredge
High Tide
Dark Maverick
Jund
control something


3 Solitary Confinement
2 Replenish
1 Sphere of Safety
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Attunement
4 Abundant Growth
1 Elephant Grass
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
4 Argothian Enchantress
3 Ground Seal
4 Enchantress's Presence
2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Dovescape
1 Emrakul, the aeons Torn
8 Forest
4 Windswept heath
4 Serra's Sanctum
1 Plains
1 Breeding Pool
1 Karakas

SB (14) oops just noticed:
2 Oblivion Ring
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Mindbreak Trap
4 Carpet of Flowers
1 Gaddock Teeg

Edit: I may just be crazy enough to test Purphoros, God of the Forge in here since it can be replenished and/or cast through Dovescape to turn Dovescape into a machine gun if for whatever reason you can not attack and Emrakul will not do the job (yeah unlikely.)

Additionally, I think force can be really good in here since at any point Attunement can be returned to your hand to pitch to force as well as loot and set-up that fattie Replenish in the process.

Hi Freggle
First : congrats for your result.

I am a casual legacy player and i usually play an old version of enchantress (the toolbox one). But next month there will be a legacy GP in Paris and i want to play another version of the deck. I took a look to the list above and i have some questions :
1- why don't you play sterling grove?
2- How do you play with attunement? Do you realy need 4 of them?
3- is it a good idea to play 1 vexing shusher (and may be 1 more GSZ) ?
4- What about elephant grass? I think it's a good card on early game but without any tutor you probably never draw it at the good time...
5- why carpet of flowers are best than city of solitude on side against control?
6- Do you think this unusual version could be a good choice for a GP or should i better play the more common RIP/Helm version?
thank you

[Freggle]

Hi Freggle
First : congrats for your result.

I am a casual legacy player and i usually play an old version of enchantress (the toolbox one). But next month there will be a legacy GP in Paris and i want to play another version of the deck. I took a look to the list above and i have some questions :
1- why don't you play sterling grove?
2- How do you play with attunement? Do you realy need 4 of them?
3- is it a good idea to play 1 vexing shusher (and may be 1 more GSZ) ?
4- What about elephant grass? I think it's a good card on early game but without any tutor you probably never draw it at the good time...
5- why carpet of flowers are best than city of solitude on side against control?
6- Do you think this unusual version could be a good choice for a GP or should i better play the more common RIP/Helm version?
thank you

Thank you, but 44th isn’t exactly impressive.

1 – Sterling Grove has (3) functions. Providing shroud to all other Enchantments and tutoring, and maintaining an enchantment count.
• The Shroud – In the Attunement version I originally had them in the main, but I found that with 2-3 main Replenish you really don’t care if someone uses spot removal on any of your enchantments. The main reason I even toyed with this build was for Attunement, and unless there is some card preventing it like City of Solitude you can always return it to your hand to loot before it is destroyed. So in minimal testing this deck really didn’t need the shroud. Additionally, most things that target enchantments are non-creatures, and Dovescape give the enchantments pseudo shroud.
• The Tutor – Using Sterling Grove as a tutor is really inefficient at (3) mana, and given the drawing / looting that this build did the tutor wasn’t needed. It was better to make the draw engine more sound to improve the overall resiliency to the deck.
• The Enchantment Count - Given that the first two abilities were not found to be essential you could replace Sterling Grove with another enchantment and still keep the count so long as the other abilities printed on the enchantments were deemed more necessary.
2 – Attunement – You use probe to see if you have to worry about grave hate and you loot the high casting cost enchantments to the yard and set-up a fatty Replenish. Don’t forget that you can discard Attunement to itself and Replenish it back for more free looting into more Replenish.

3 – Shusher & GSZ – I tested Shusher in the RIP build and frankly it sucks. There is too much tempo loss, and it dies to removal. The 4th GSZ is likely good.

4 – Elephant Grass – This list was more of a basis sketch that had a minimal amount of testing. More Elephant Grasses may be okay as long as you don’t stifle your progression. Using Attunement / Replenish goes over the top of many strategies really quickly, and you don’t want to stifle that but tapping for the Cumulative Upkeep too much.

5 – City vs. Carpet – Tempo, tempo, tempo. To use City correctly you would play it before you resolve any enchantress effects if it resolves and stay in play your clear. If they have any counter it then it didn’t do any good. With Carpet you can cast it Turn 2 out of the reach of daze and Pierce (so long you hit your growth effect) and use it the same turn post combat. Then you play your first enchantress effect if it resolves you are way ahead. If it doesn’t then you got the counter. This is where running 12 Effects is pretty important because next turn you are way ahead of the mana race, and there is a decent chance that you can present 2 e effects that following turn. It is unlikely Control can keep up, and then you over run with mana advantage. Playing with City you would untap and cast your E effect and maybe luck out or maybe not.

There is also a direct correlation to the main plan to beat control. …that being resolving Emrakul.

Then there also the fact that City turns off your Attunement on your opponents turn and Sterling (if your playing it) that doesn’t seem too good either.

I have had S&T player pobe and see no threats in hand and good for the Show and Tell. I responded by returning 2 Attunements and finding an Emrakul, and I got to untap first.

6 – I really don’t know the answer to that the list you quoted is relatively untested, but if I had to guess (as I was faced with this for the SCG Orlando) I would lean on RIP Helm as many people are high on Grave hate right now. Now it is true that Ground Seal stops a lot of the popular stuff, but you do have decks like Jund depths running the Crop Rotation / Bojuka Bog plan, so it seems somewhat risky. …but Probe would be able to tell you when it safe to go broken if all is well, but sometimes yo do try for it blind. (FYI there is also a play where you can return Attunement to discard Emrakul bofore their bog trigger resolves to suffle your yard back in.) If you were to run the Attunement I would test it thoroughly, and tune it to your play style. I would be willing to help, as it is very fun to pilot.

[domajm32]

Freggle thanks for your advice! I was able to get a 4th sanctum and hopefully it will get to me in time... I have a couple of explorations and think I will give those a look. I will post my list sometime this weekend when I get retooled.

[Freggle]

Freggle thanks for your advice! I was able to get a 4th sanctum and hopefully it will get to me in time... I have a couple of explorations and think I will give those a look. I will post my list sometime this weekend when I get retooled.

Awesome! Keep me posted. I'd love to see your take on it.

[hzwhvw]

So...what about Spirit of the Labyrinth?
Pretty good hate vs Enchantress.

[Freggle]

So...what about Spirit of the Labyrinth?
Pretty good hate vs Enchantress.

Yes. It's obviously good. Some answers that come to mind however are:

Words of War
Oblivion Ring
Parallax Wave
Dread of Night
Seal of Primordium
Seal of Cleansing
Aura of Silence...

...or GSZ for Trygon Predator

...but I'm sure there are more, and there might be better ones. It'll just take a slight re-tool to fight the new hot card.

[Potawo]

1 – Sterling Grove has (3) functions. Providing shroud to all other Enchantments and tutoring, and maintaining an enchantment count.
• The Shroud – In the Attunement version I originally had them in the main, but I found that with 2-3 main Replenish you really don’t care if someone uses spot removal on any of your enchantments. The main reason I even toyed with this build was for Attunement, and unless there is some card preventing it like City of Solitude you can always return it to your hand to loot before it is destroyed. So in minimal testing this deck really didn’t need the shroud. Additionally, most things that target enchantments are non-creatures, and Dovescape give the enchantments pseudo shroud.
• The Tutor – Using Sterling Grove as a tutor is really inefficient at (3) mana, and given the drawing / looting that this build did the tutor wasn’t needed. It was better to make the draw engine more sound to improve the overall resiliency to the deck.
• The Enchantment Count - Given that the first two abilities were not found to be essential you could replace Sterling Grove with another enchantment and still keep the count so long as the other abilities printed on the enchantments were deemed more necessary.

I'm ok with you, but i have test the deck with a friend this WE and i died few times due to an abrupt decay (or Oblivion Ring) targeting my solitary confinement before a big rush. And Abrupt decay is played on many deck, so the shroud effect of Grove is more important than ever... Futhermore, it works well with replenish! So i will test with Grove during the week and i tell you what i think about it!



2 – Attunement – You use probe to see if you have to worry about grave hate and you loot the high casting cost enchantments to the yard and set-up a fatty Replenish. Don’t forget that you can discard Attunement to itself and Replenish it back for more free looting into more Replenish.

I'm still caring about the use of attunement. the first goal for the deck is to get 1 (or 2) enchantress effect. So on turn 1 you probably use a growth effect (i also add 1 dryad arbor MD to be sure that i could have 3 mana on turn 2). Then on turn 2 you want to play an enchantress effect. And as soon as possible you want to lock the game with solitary confinement. How attunement could be useful to reach this goal? You told me to "loot the high casting cost enchantments to the yard and set-up a fatty Replenish" but we don't play high casting cost enchantments (just 1 dovescape and 1 sphere of safety). So why should i discard solitary or enchantress presence (3CC) instead of hard cast them? Attunement gives no advantage the turn he is played, so, if you play it on turn 3 or 4 it's a big loose of tempo and if you play it on late game, you don't have to list 4 of them in your MD!
During my tests i never knew when to play it correctly!



3 – Shusher & GSZ – I tested Shusher in the RIP build and frankly it sucks. There is too much tempo loss, and it dies to removal. The 4th GSZ is likely good.
I'am ok with you, Shusher is only good with dovescape in play but it's overkill...



4 – Elephant Grass – This list was more of a basis sketch that had a minimal amount of testing. More Elephant Grasses may be okay as long as you don’t stifle your progression. Using Attunement / Replenish goes over the top of many strategies really quickly, and you don’t want to stifle that but tapping for the Cumulative Upkeep too much.
I rather thought to complety remove it from the MD and perhaps add 1 more sphere of safety on this slot...



5 – City vs. Carpet – Tempo, tempo, tempo. To use City correctly you would play it before you resolve any enchantress effects if it resolves and stay in play your clear. If they have any counter it then it didn’t do any good. With Carpet you can cast it Turn 2 out of the reach of daze and Pierce (so long you hit your growth effect) and use it the same turn post combat. Then you play your first enchantress effect if it resolves you are way ahead. If it doesn’t then you got the counter. This is where running 12 Effects is pretty important because next turn you are way ahead of the mana race, and there is a decent chance that you can present 2 e effects that following turn. It is unlikely Control can keep up, and then you over run with mana advantage. Playing with City you would untap and cast your E effect and maybe luck out or maybe not.

There is also a direct correlation to the main plan to beat control. …that being resolving Emrakul.

Then there also the fact that City turns off your Attunement on your opponents turn and Sterling (if your playing it) that doesn’t seem too good either.

I have had S&T player pobe and see no threats in hand and good for the Show and Tell. I responded by returning 2 Attunements and finding an Emrakul, and I got to untap first.

ok you convinced me on this point!



6 – I really don’t know the answer to that the list you quoted is relatively untested, but if I had to guess (as I was faced with this for the SCG Orlando) I would lean on RIP Helm as many people are high on Grave hate right now. Now it is true that Ground Seal stops a lot of the popular stuff, but you do have decks like Jund depths running the Crop Rotation / Bojuka Bog plan, so it seems somewhat risky. …but Probe would be able to tell you when it safe to go broken if all is well, but sometimes yo do try for it blind. (FYI there is also a play where you can return Attunement to discard Emrakul bofore their bog trigger resolves to suffle your yard back in.) If you were to run the Attunement I would test it thoroughly, and tune it to your play style. I would be willing to help, as it is very fun to pilot.

Honestly i'm not a good player and i mainly want to play for fun. So I will probably play a "homemade version". I just want to avoid a 0-3 drop ;-)

This week I will also try Telepathy instead of Probe...

(sorry for my English :rolleyes:)

[caiomarcos]

Yes. It's obviously good. Some answers that come to mind however are:

Words of War
Oblivion Ring
Parallax Wave
Dread of Night
Seal of Primordium
Seal of Cleansing
Aura of Silence...

...or GSZ for Trygon Predator

...but I'm sure there are more, and there might be better ones. It'll just take a slight re-tool to fight the new hot card.

Immolation, good old answer for Meddling Mage and such comes in handy here.

Would you still draw cards (out of enchantress' effects) if you cast Immolation on Spirit of the Labyrinth?
Thinking about triggers and stuff I think so, but still not sure...

[Tempus]

Immolation, good old answer for Meddling Mage and such comes in handy here.

Would you still draw cards (out of enchantress' effects) if you cast Immolation on Spirit of the Labyrinth?
Thinking about triggers and stuff I think so, but still not sure...

When you cast Immolation with Enchantress in play the stack looks as follows:

==top==
Draw a card
Immolation
==bottom==

So the draw would resolve before Immolation and you can't draw a card.

[FatPow]

So...what about Spirit of the Labyrinth?
Pretty good hate vs Enchantress.

I wonder if this will replace Phyrexian Revoker in Death & Taxes? Maybe in their sideboard. I'm sort of hoping it will.

[sun tzu]

hey freggle are you sure the attunement plan is worth it? it seems like it would be more suited to an all-in graveyard based plan (with AT LEAST 3 replenish). against decks that can easily disrupt your enchantress abilities in play, i have found attunement to be a 'clump' in the plan, if you will. i can definitely see how it has potential, but im not sure its a strong enough 'base' card if that makes sense. as a card advantage engine it seems like win-more because if you have your enchantress effects in play its good and you are drawing cards anyways, and if you dont have them in play then it doesnt actually net you cards unless you end up resolving a timely replenish (which can be hard and easily countered or disrupted by removal, graveyard hate, etc.).

do you think its worth it? im not even sure splashing into blue is worth it to be honest. it seems like it would just make more inconsistencies and put a stronger need for nonbasics in a deck where you want a lot of basics mainboard.

how has 2 GSZ been for you? every time ive started an enchantress list i always start with

4 enchantress
4 gsz
4 enchantress's pres

is going less than that on enchantress effects worth it to up your enchantment count? i feel like 12 'effective' enchantress effects is important. i really wish there were more, like going up to 13+ enchantress effects, to be honest.

[Just me]

too much GSZ makes teh deck much worse later in the game. You really only need 1 usually to fetch the first Enchantress (or maybe the Dryad Arbor t1). Subsequent topdecks of GSZ are dead or take too much time and mana in setting up(without drawing a card like Presence).

The Attunement version is fun, but not better (or worse) as the RIP-Helm combo. It plays more for a lock, less for a win. Maybe combine with the Words of Wind to use blue better? Definitly scale up on the exterme stuff though, otherwise the payoff is too small with Replenish (just getting more draw with Attunements and more Presence doesn't help).

[sun tzu]

too much GSZ makes teh deck much worse later in the game. You really only need 1 usually to fetch the first Enchantress (or maybe the Dryad Arbor t1). Subsequent topdecks of GSZ are dead or take too much time and mana in setting up(without drawing a card like Presence).

The Attunement version is fun, but not better (or worse) as the RIP-Helm combo. It plays more for a lock, less for a win. Maybe combine with the Words of Wind to use blue better? Definitly scale up on the exterme stuff though, otherwise the payoff is too small with Replenish (just getting more draw with Attunements and more Presence doesn't help).

i think 4 green sun's zenith is worth it. think of it this way: we have an enchantress 'engine' effectively. if our opponents are able to especially hinder our enchantress gameplan with things like discard, sacrifice effects (which gsz for 0 gets dryad arbor to protect), abrupt decay, etc. we will have a hard time doing much of anything on our turns. if you dont start with the foundation of an early enchantress effect and sustain it you are much more likely to lose, especially against cards that can 'clock' you fast.

even when you draw them late in the game, it will be very rare that you will not be able to hit an argothian enchantress with it. if you've seen all 4 enchantress and the game still isnt G_G in your favor something has gone horribly wrong. if you hit critical mass of this enchantress effect you should be winning shortly thereafter, or at least have an easy pathway to winning.

with the attunement plan, i wonder if its viable with the opalescence + parallax wave combo and like 3+ replenish. that way you can make really good use of the attunement discard and draw effects with a combo that is assembled by resolving 1 replenish. this used to be a deck back in the day and it might just be viable again.

right now im trying to test opalescence + parallax wave more, with a RIP + helm combo sb (boarding out the replenish and gy based strategies when you expect hate).

[domajm32]

Awesome! Keep me posted. I'd love to see your take on it.
Current list is looking like :

Creatures: 5
4 argothian enchantress
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Spells 2
2 Green Sun's Zenth

Enchantments 31
3 Rest in Peace
2 Mirri's Guile
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
2 Exploration
4 Elephant Grass
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Solitary Confinement
1 Sphere of Safety

Artifacts 2
2 Helm of Obedience

Lands 20
1 Karakas
4 Serra's Sanctum
2 Windswept Heath
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
2 Savannah
8 Forest

The sb is still in the making but have some ideas, meta is looking like a lot of combo. Some reanimater, pox, affinity, burn/rdw, Shardless BUG, and some delver variants for sure. That's about all I know about the meta... Let me know what you think. I put the leyline main to hopefully help give game 1 vs burn, pox, and combo a better shot.

[sun tzu]

have you guys seen perplexing chimera from the new set? it looks so awesome!

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=151630&d=1390428378

[Just me]

i think 4 green sun's zenith is worth it. think of it this way: we have an enchantress 'engine' effectively. if our opponents are able to especially hinder our enchantress gameplan with things like discard, sacrifice effects (which gsz for 0 gets dryad arbor to protect), abrupt decay, etc. we will have a hard time doing much of anything on our turns. if you dont start with the foundation of an early enchantress effect and sustain it you are much more likely to lose, especially against cards that can 'clock' you fast.

even when you draw them late in the game, it will be very rare that you will not be able to hit an argothian enchantress with it. if you've seen all 4 enchantress and the game still isnt G_G in your favor something has gone horribly wrong. if you hit critical mass of this enchantress effect you should be winning shortly thereafter, or at least have an easy pathway to winning.

with the attunement plan, i wonder if its viable with the opalescence + parallax wave combo and like 3+ replenish. that way you can make really good use of the attunement discard and draw effects with a combo that is assembled by resolving 1 replenish. this used to be a deck back in the day and it might just be viable again.

right now im trying to test opalescence + parallax wave more, with a RIP + helm combo sb (boarding out the replenish and gy based strategies when you expect hate).

I think that 12 Enchantress effects are great but GSZ is slow. Best case GSZ for Enchantress is T2. On T3, with a normal curve, it's too late generally. So the window is rather small, it's either accel on T1 for a T2 Presence or Argothian + 1 cc enchantment (which is best), in which case it mimicks Utopia Sprawl/Wild Growth of which we already run 8, or it's a T2 Agothian, assuming accel on T1. Anything else with GSZ is cornercase in my experience, especially if the deck runs no cute targets like Vexing Susher or other hatebears (Gaddock Teeg). Otherwise, GSZ is basically dead since it simply takes to long (T3 GSZ is way too slow in Legacy as it accomplishes nothing in itself). Let's face it, Legacy is a brutal format and a T3 Enchantress is sloooow (whish it wasn't so). That's why I still love stuff like Elvish Spirit Guide and Chrome Mox, more speed is HUGE for this deck, the sooner it get's rolling, the sooner inevitability is reached.

[Kulta]

Hello everybody, I'm new to both the forum and the deck. I've been meaning to get into Legacy at some point and since I've loved our little shrouded 0/1 lady (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Argothian%20Enchantress) from the moment I saw it combined with my affinity for griefing opponents, enchantress seemed like the most logical choice (Even though I love playing Hymn to Tourach (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Hymn%20to%20Tourach) just for that little cringe you get from people). Man how cool would enchantress be with hand disruption..

Anyway the list that domajm32 posted is close to what I have in mind, maybe adding a mox or two for t1 enchantress shenanigains
Since I have not yet played Legacy as of yet, what are the worst matchups for enchantress, and what is considered good sb/mb tech against such strategies if at all present?

[Claymore]

You can actually go to www.mtgcoverage.com and see a ton of Legacy matches. There don't appear to be many for Enchantress, but here it is against Death and Taxes (not sure if its a good vid or not, haha):

http://www.mtgcoverage.com/asearch.php?deck=Enchantress

[Blastoderm]

Yes. It's obviously good. Some answers that come to mind however are:

Words of War
Oblivion Ring
Parallax Wave
Dread of Night
Seal of Primordium
Seal of Cleansing
Aura of Silence...

...or GSZ for Trygon Predator

...but I'm sure there are more, and there might be better ones. It'll just take a slight re-tool to fight the new hot card.

GSZ for qasali pridemage or harmonic sliver.

[sun tzu]

I think that 12 Enchantress effects are great but GSZ is slow. Best case GSZ for Enchantress is T2. On T3, with a normal curve, it's too late generally. So the window is rather small, it's either accel on T1 for a T2 Presence or Argothian + 1 cc enchantment (which is best), in which case it mimicks Utopia Sprawl/Wild Growth of which we already run 8, or it's a T2 Agothian, assuming accel on T1. Anything else with GSZ is cornercase in my experience, especially if the deck runs no cute targets like Vexing Susher or other hatebears (Gaddock Teeg). Otherwise, GSZ is basically dead since it simply takes to long (T3 GSZ is way too slow in Legacy as it accomplishes nothing in itself). Let's face it, Legacy is a brutal format and a T3 Enchantress is sloooow (whish it wasn't so). That's why I still love stuff like Elvish Spirit Guide and Chrome Mox, more speed is HUGE for this deck, the sooner it get's rolling, the sooner inevitability is reached.

i definitely agree that turn 3 for GSZ for 2 is pretty slow, but i think thats ok against a lot of the more 'fair' decks that will try to disrupt your enchantress effects. like i said, if someone is easily able to disrupt this part of your plan, your deck becomes essentially mediocre at best. drawing 1 card per turn when you play a grip of utopia sprawls and wild growths really cant cut it a lot of the time. its very very important to have AT LEAST 1 enchantress effect in play, if not more. GSZ enables you to have more.

the upside of having GSZ targets in the SB is also nice, but im not sure i would want more than just enchantress for maindeck GSZ targets.

[Freggle]

You can actually go to www.mtgcoverage.com and see a ton of Legacy matches. There don't appear to be many for Enchantress, but here it is against Death and Taxes (not sure if its a good vid or not, haha):

http://www.mtgcoverage.com/asearch.php?deck=Enchantress

Hey! that's me :) I too was looking to a comprehensive area for enchantress discussing the MU's and so forth. I know that after searching MTGtheSource I couldn't find one here, so I reached out to the people of MTGSalvation, and no one knew of one their either. therefore I intend to make one I just don't know when I'll have the time to actually do it. If you have specific questions you can use this forum to ask them or PM me and I'll do my best to answer them.

[Freggle]

Hello everybody, I'm new to both the forum and the deck. I've been meaning to get into Legacy at some point and since I've loved our little shrouded 0/1 lady (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Argothian%20Enchantress) from the moment I saw it combined with my affinity for griefing opponents, enchantress seemed like the most logical choice (Even though I love playing Hymn to Tourach (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Hymn%20to%20Tourach) just for that little cringe you get from people). Man how cool would enchantress be with hand disruption..

Anyway the list that domajm32 posted is close to what I have in mind, maybe adding a mox or two for t1 enchantress shenanigains
Since I have not yet played Legacy as of yet, what are the worst matchups for enchantress, and what is considered good sb/mb tech against such strategies if at all present?

I personally do not recommend Chrome Mox but some people swear by it. Enchantress is a deck that inherently a deck that has a good deal of variance to is in that you all but need an Enchantress in hand to have a keep able hand (pending MU.) Adding Moxes will only add to the hands that you just can keep IMO.

Enchantress with hand disruption? ...forge your own list and try Words of Waste.

[Dihensoeur]

Hi all,

If you want to make an Enchantress that become really competitive, you need to have chance VS combo.deck, so you need to have MD at least x6 hate-combo cards.
Unfortunately, there is no enchantments enough efficient to complete this job (Leyline is not a hate combo).
So you need to have at least 6 no-enchantment spells to fight combo.

The only card that I found for this job (for GW Enchantress) is Orim's Chant (so x4 Orim's Chant and x2 Silence).

Why?
- this card allow you to gain time (and you need it absolutely).
- it can break a start of storm combo like elves (after a glimpse) or ANT (after Ad-nauseaum or Past in flames).
- it can assure (during your turn) to play your helm combo or put an enchantress.
- With kick cost, it can stop a critical attack (Emrakul from Show/Sneak or Behemot from Elves).
- it cost only one white mana.
- it works well for no-combo deck too.


The other point is that you're too based on enchantress, specially Argothian enchantress which takes many hate (and much more now with TNN/SoL). You want absolutely to put one or more of them on the battlefield and draw lot of cards until you can put combo or Emrakul. You have no other solution and this is a big weakness. You can't be as fast as ANT or Elves so you will take many hate and damage before succeed to put combo or Emrakul.
Now you have Creatures-enchantments that allow you to have a second plan: Aggro. But more than that, you can be more resistant vs Aggro and Liliana of the veil (this card generally put you in the space) and vs cards like Spell Pierce/Thalia/Duress.

Creatures-enchantment that I found interesting are:

Leafcrown Dryad: 2/2 for only 2 and reach so can stop Delver.
Nyxborn Shieldmate: 1/2 for only 1 is interesting to put creature quickly and stop cards like BoB or Goblins.
Archetype of Courage: 2/2 for 3 is expensive but get first strike seems to be good vs Thalia/BloodBraid Elve/... and with 2/3 creatures you can stop and kill Tarmogoyf without lose any creature.
Courser of Kruphix: 2/4 for 3 is correct and can stop many thing. But moreover, its abilities are interesting. You can gain some hps to gain time and you can play lands from your top and so more dig the deck (obvious, you don't play land from your hand but only from your top during your extra draw from enchantress).

So I suggest you to work around (or at least test) this kind of list:

20 lands
x2 Karakas
x4 Serra's Sanctum
x3 Windswept Heath
x2 Misty Rainforest
x1 Plains
x8 Forest

16 creatures
x4 Argothian enchantress
x3 Courser of Kruphix
x3 Leafcrown Dryad
x3 Nyxborn Shieldmate
x3 Archetype of Courage

16 Enchantments (28 with creatures)
x4 Rest in peace
x4 Enchantress's Presence
x3 Solitary Confinement
x1 Sphere of Safety
x4 Wild Growth

Combo Kill
x2 Helm of Obedience

Control
x4 Orim's Chant
x2 Silence



May the Enchantress force be with you.

Regards,
Dihensoeur.

[lordofthepit]

This is going to be a question/request that may offend Enchantress purists, but is there a stock G/W list?

I'm primarily using it to (1) troll local players who wouldn't put me on a prison-style deck, (2) get better technically at playing with heavy board control decks, and (3) use it for testing purposes.

No idea if I want to run RIP/Helm combo, Emrakul, or Words of War to complement the normal win-cons (I assume Sigil is mandatory). Also not sure what common "packages" that distinguish different builds are. I do know that I want to run G/W, rather than the G/U versions.

[Just me]

A stock list is something like this;

4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress Presence
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Sterling Grove
4 Elephant Grass
3 Solitary Confinement
2 Mirri's Guile
1 Words of War
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Sphere of Safety
2 Runed Halo
2 Ground Seal
1 Holistic Wisdom
1 Replenish
3 Chrome Mox
3 Serra's Sanctuum
4 Windswept Heath
1 Savannah
8 Forests
2 Plains

The BOLD part is pretty much set for this version. The rest can be tinkered with, I had a lot of fun with Suppression Field back when Survival/Vengevine was king. Runed Halo is really good as well is some metagames (als adds pay vs combo).
Chrome Mox can be Elvish Spirit Guide or Lotus Petal if you want. Or 1 more land, 1 Exploration and 1 other low cc enchantment. 1 Less plains and playing a Karakas would be sweet (but expensive $$$). Either way, this is a nice prison list to start with.

Personally, I would cut Sigil, Words and other stuff to just play 4 Rest in Peace, 1-2 Helm of Obedience (maybe 1 Enlighted Tutor as well). The GY hate is great in Legacy across the board. Combo is not happy with it (Cabal Ritual, past in Flames), Reanimator, Deathrite Shaman, Tarmogoyf and Nimble Mongoose from several 'fair' decks, Dredge, Snapcaster,...

But the list a bove is older (more traditional if you will) and focused towards the control a bit more.

[lordofthepit]

A stock list is something like this;

4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress Presence
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Sterling Grove
4 Elephant Grass
3 Solitary Confinement
2 Mirri's Guile
1 Words of War
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Sphere of Safety
2 Runed Halo
2 Ground Seal
1 Holistic Wisdom
1 Replenish
3 Chrome Mox
3 Serra's Sanctuum
4 Windswept Heath
1 Savannah
8 Forests
2 Plains

The BOLD part is pretty much set for this version. The rest can be tinkered with, I had a lot of fun with Suppression Field back when Survival/Vengevine was king. Runed Halo is really good as well is some metagames (als adds pay vs combo).
Chrome Mox can be Elvish Spirit Guide or Lotus Petal if you want. Or 1 more land, 1 Exploration and 1 other low cc enchantment. 1 Less plains and playing a Karakas would be sweet (but expensive $$$). Either way, this is a nice prison list to start with.

Personally, I would cut Sigil, Words and other stuff to just play 4 Rest in Peace, 1-2 Helm of Obedience (maybe 1 Enlighted Tutor as well). The GY hate is great in Legacy across the board. Combo is not happy with it (Cabal Ritual, past in Flames), Reanimator, Deathrite Shaman, Tarmogoyf and Nimble Mongoose from several 'fair' decks, Dredge, Snapcaster,...

But the list a bove is older (more traditional if you will) and focused towards the control a bit more.

Thanks!

One of the local players in my area (who may be reading this post right now) maindecks Carpet of Flowers, but he often goes deep on the metagame calls. Is this very unusual? Is it something you would consider if not running the relatively "bulky" RIP/Helm package?

[Nonex]

I've been running 4 Carpets MD for a long time instead of Elephant Grass, and I've never regretted it since my meta has always been filled with blue tempo. When DRS appeared and the popularity of Jund and Junk began rising, I switched them for Leyline of Sanctity and I still feel it's the thing to do (in my metagame). All of this with and without Words of War, and with RiP/Helm or Ground Seal/Replenish.

(With 3 Elephant Grass and 4 Carpet of Flowers always ready in the SB)

[Blastoderm]

I think Runed Halo is the way to go. You autowin game 1 against ANT by naming Tendrils of Agony, protects against a creature of choice (germ, delver, griselbrand, tarmogoyf), protects against liliana of the veil, etc etc.

I have a question for ppl who do not play gsz. Do you mull for an enchantress? You say it's too slow but aren't you even slower without one? Could also ramp into dryad arbor turn 1. Playing them also gives access to Gaddock Teeg and Qasali Pridemage/Harmonic Sliver in the board to deal with the pesky new spirit hate card from BnG.

[Just me]

Carpet of flowers is fine maindeck if you know the meta good enough to make the call.

I do run GSZ, everybody should. But I don't run 4. I keep wavering between 1 and 3.

Mulls are very matchup dependant, especially after board. If you have the right answers, not having an Enchantress isn't the end of the world if you buy enough time.

Extreme example. Vs Dredge, do you keep a seven hand with double RIP, 2 lands, 1 Growth, 1 Confinement and 1 Sigil? I would.

[Blastoderm]

Carpet of flowers is fine maindeck if you know the meta good enough to make the call.

I do run GSZ, everybody should. But I don't run 4. I keep wavering between 1 and 3.

Mulls are very matchup dependant, especially after board. If you have the right answers, not having an Enchantress isn't the end of the world if you buy enough time.

Extreme example. Vs Dredge, do you keep a seven hand with double RIP, 2 lands, 1 Growth, 1 Confinement and 1 Sigil? I would.

Agreed. I think I'll stick to 2 gsz. Mirri's Guile helps opening hands as well.

[gregtron]

I think Runed Halo is the way to go. You autowin game 1 against ANT by naming Tendrils of Agony,

I'm an ANT player who came here out of curiosity, and just want to point out that a significant number of ANT players are running 1 or 2 copies of Burning Wish in the maindeck for "oh shit" situations like this. It's definitely really, really good against ANT, just not an autowin without something like Elephant Grass backup.

[Blastoderm]

I'm an ANT player who came here out of curiosity, and just want to point out that a significant number of ANT players are running 1 or 2 copies of Burning Wish in the maindeck for "oh shit" situations like this. It's definitely really, really good against ANT, just not an autowin without something like Elephant Grass backup.

That's true but most ANT decklists I've seen do not play red at all. Isn't it TES that plays Burning Wish?

[gregtron]

That's true but most ANT decklists I've seen do not play red at all. Isn't it TES that plays Burning Wish?

You must've run up against some antiquated lists, then, as almost every ANT deck has moved to a red splash to cast Past in Flames. Burning Wish is normally a four-of in TES, but like I said, it's not uncommon to see them in ANT these days.

[Blastoderm]

You must've run up against some antiquated lists, then, as almost every ANT deck has moved to a red splash to cast Past in Flames. Burning Wish is normally a four-of in TES, but like I said, it's not uncommon to see them in ANT these days.

Interesting.. thanks for the info :) Makes sense though since the black blue lists scoop to Gaddock Teeg game 1.

[GoldenCid]

A stock list is something like this;

4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress Presence
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Sterling Grove
4 Elephant Grass
3 Solitary Confinement
2 Mirri's Guile
1 Words of War
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Sphere of Safety
2 Runed Halo
2 Ground Seal
1 Holistic Wisdom
1 Replenish
3 Chrome Mox
3 Serra's Sanctuum
4 Windswept Heath
1 Savannah
8 Forests
2 Plains

The BOLD part is pretty much set for this version. The rest can be tinkered with, I had a lot of fun with Suppression Field back when Survival/Vengevine was king. Runed Halo is really good as well is some metagames (als adds pay vs combo).
Chrome Mox can be Elvish Spirit Guide or Lotus Petal if you want. Or 1 more land, 1 Exploration and 1 other low cc enchantment. 1 Less plains and playing a Karakas would be sweet (but expensive $$$). Either way, this is a nice prison list to start with.

Personally, I would cut Sigil, Words and other stuff to just play 4 Rest in Peace, 1-2 Helm of Obedience (maybe 1 Enlighted Tutor as well). The GY hate is great in Legacy across the board. Combo is not happy with it (Cabal Ritual, past in Flames), Reanimator, Deathrite Shaman, Tarmogoyf and Nimble Mongoose from several 'fair' decks, Dredge, Snapcaster,...

But the list a bove is older (more traditional if you will) and focused towards the control a bit more.

Probably i'd add mirri guile to the bold stock

Off: Is the any link to a "black enchantress" list?

[btm10]

Carpet of flowers is fine maindeck if you know the meta good enough to make the call.

I do run GSZ, everybody should. But I don't run 4. I keep wavering between 1 and 3.

Mulls are very matchup dependant, especially after board. If you have the right answers, not having an Enchantress isn't the end of the world if you buy enough time.

Extreme example. Vs Dredge, do you keep a seven hand with double RIP, 2 lands, 1 Growth, 1 Confinement and 1 Sigil? I would.

I actually don't run GSZ; I find it too narrow (it hits only Argothians and your 1-of Gaddock Teeg postboard). The idea of having "virtual copies" of Argothian is good in principle because it increases redundancy and helps get around counters (i.e., you don't lose the Argothian if GSZ is countered), but I've consistently found that while this works against tempo, it's not as good as just burning the control player dry of counters with other bombs or running discard, Gitaxian Probe, or Abeyance/Chant/Silence (probably Abeyance). Especially since our control matchup is pretty favorable anyway.

I'm currently running something similar to Freggle's list from SCG Orlando, but with 2-3 Enlightened Tutor in the GSZ slots, fewer (2-3) MD Rest in Peace, Sigil over Emrakul, and a small black splash for things like Dread of Night and postboard Leyline of the Void.

This being said, my SCG Columbus was a disaster. I played Miracles round 1 and lost to turn 2 Counterblance/Top which naturally flipped a second Counterbalance to counter my T2 Argothian and locked me out. Game 2 he apparently had a hand of 2 lands, 2 spell pierce, 2 force, and brainstorm, and topdecked a second blue card for the second Force. That was enough to empty my Argothain, Presence, Forest, Savannah, Sprawl, Seal of Cleansing mull to 6; he won by topdecking Top after about 5-6 turns of draw-(land)-go and Entreating for a bunch of Angels the next turn. Sometimes you lose even good matchups. The next four rounds I got paired against Omnitell, High Tide, Reanimator, and Reanimator, taking only the last High Tide and second Reanimator matches. I ended up scooping to the second Reanimator player anyway because I didn't want to continue that dreadful run. I'm not going to try to draw any conclusions from this because I (like everyone, I think) knew that Enchantress has a bad combo matchup already. I am considering going back to a 1-of Humility either main or board with all the Reanimator running around, though.


Probably i'd add mirri guile to the bold stock

Off: Is the any link to a "black enchantress" list?

I posted one a few pages back. Here it is:

Mana Sources/Lands (27)
5 Forest
4 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
2 Savannah
2 Serra's Sanctum
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth

Engine(16)
4 Argothian Enchantress
3 Sterling Grove
3 Enchantress's Presence
2 Sylvan Library
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Replenish

Staying Alive(6)
3 Elephant Grass
1 Sphere of Safety
1 The Abyss
1 Leyline of Sanctity

Answers(8)
3 Duress
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Suppression Field
1 Words of Waste

Win(3)
1 Rest in Peace
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 Helm of Obedience

This isn't the current list (also, the sideboard is in another post), and is also an artifact of playing in a meta with mostly slow decks (Stoneblade, Miracles, Jund) where Confinement didn't help much. My current build is on the Confinement/Guile plan.

@Dihensoeur: I've advocated (and used) Abeyance/Chant in the past, and it might be worth it in the current meta. With TNN around (and the changes it's brought), it's probably a better plan to run Abeyance because it doesn't matter if it gets Misdirected/Diverted. It's worse against A+B combo (Show and Tell, Reanimator) than it is against Storm, but since A+B combo is currently better and more common than Storm, it's also going to be worth testing things like Thoughtsieze or Duress. As for the rest of your list, I feel like you're better off with the Hero of Iroas-focused decks being discussed elsewhere if you want to run the straight aggro plan, because your creature base seems strictly worse than theirs and doesn't really give Enchantress anything it didn't have. Delver and TNN aren't the things keeping the deck from Tier 1, combo is.

[swordoffireandice]

He guys, yesterday i ran into Emrakul multiple times.....the annihilator part sucks bigtime....
I play RIP/Helm combo so i came up with 'Web of Inertia', i already play a blue splash (Energy Field)
That stops creature from attacking.
Are there anymore cards good against Emrakul besides Karakas???

http://deckbox.org/mtg/Web%20of%20Inertia

[sun tzu]

He guys, yesterday i ran into Emrakul multiple times.....the annihilator part sucks bigtime....
I play RIP/Helm combo so i came up with 'Web of Inertia', i already play a blue splash (Energy Field)
That stops creature from attacking.
Are there anymore cards good against Emrakul besides Karakas???
parallax wave can be good vs show and tell i suspect.

[swordoffireandice]

parallax wave can be good vs show and tell i suspect.

Emrakul has protection from colored spells.....

[Tempus]

True, but your using an ability when exiling him with Parallax Wave

[swordoffireandice]

True, but your using an ability when exiling him with Parallax Wave

LOL this shows me to read the cards better......... ;-)
Just bought 2 Karakas...

[btm10]

parallax wave can be good vs show and tell i suspect.

It's really just ok. It's better than O. Ring against Sneak and Show, but it's less versatile against OmniTell.

[GoldenCid]

I posted one a few pages back. Here it is:

Mana Sources/Lands (27)
5 Forest
4 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
2 Savannah
2 Serra's Sanctum
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth

Engine(16)
4 Argothian Enchantress
3 Sterling Grove
3 Enchantress's Presence
2 Sylvan Library
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Replenish

Staying Alive(6)
3 Elephant Grass
1 Sphere of Safety
1 The Abyss
1 Leyline of Sanctity

Answers(8)
3 Duress
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Suppression Field
1 Words of Waste

Win(3)
1 Rest in Peace
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 Helm of Obedience

This isn't the current list (also, the sideboard is in another post), and is also an artifact of playing in a meta with mostly slow decks (Stoneblade, Miracles, Jund) where Confinement didn't help much. My current build is on the Confinement/Guile plan.



Souprised by the list. Expected to see some cadeverous Bloom and planar void. how did it make it?

I was tinkering with something like this:

4 grass
3 planar void
4 presence
4 growth
4 utopia
4 enchantress
2 cadaverous Bloom
1 seal of doom
1 words of waste
1 o ring
2 helm (Works pretty good with void)
1 emrakul
3 confinement
2 E. tutor
4 grove


2 serra sanctum
1 bayou
1 scrubland
1 Savannah
6 fetch
4 plains
5 forest

Actually i do run GWu enchantress.


He guys, yesterday i ran into Emrakul multiple times.....the annihilator part sucks bigtime....
I play RIP/Helm combo so i came up with 'Web of Inertia', i already play a blue splash (Energy Field)
That stops creature from attacking.
Are there anymore cards good against Emrakul besides Karakas???

http://deckbox.org/mtg/Web%20of%20Inertia

Could you share list?

GC

[Freggle]

Rough run BTM10. I was hoping you were the 6-3 guy I read about on Salvation.

@Emrakul: Seal of Removal, Oblivion Ring, and Karakas are your best bets. Never tried Parallax Wave but it does seem a little slow / narrow.

[btm10]

It happens Freggle. I talked to several Enchantress players who put up good numbers, including one guy who ran a very traditional (WGr, multiple maindeck Replenish, no Rest in Peace/Helm) deck and went either 5-4 or 6-3. There seems to be a lot of viable design space out there, but the pairings just weren't with me or anyone else (enough) to top 8 in Columbus. Gotta keep working on the deck, though.

[Dihensoeur]

@Dihensoeur: I've advocated (and used) Abeyance/Chant in the past, and it might be worth it in the current meta. With TNN around (and the changes it's brought), it's probably a better plan to run Abeyance because it doesn't matter if it gets Misdirected/Diverted. It's worse against A+B combo (Show and Tell, Reanimator) than it is against Storm, but since A+B combo is currently better and more common than Storm, it's also going to be worth testing things like Thoughtsieze or Duress. As for the rest of your list, I feel like you're better off with the Hero of Iroas-focused decks being discussed elsewhere if you want to run the straight aggro plan, because your creature base seems strictly worse than theirs and doesn't really give Enchantress anything it didn't have. Delver and TNN aren't the things keeping the deck from Tier 1, combo is.

Ok thx, it was just a suggestion. It seems so that Enchantress GW can't be competitive now (personal opinion). Discards work well vs combo (at least 6 dicards MD), but how do you include them into GW Enchantress ?

Good luk people.

[GoldenCid]

I wanted to share with you my decklist looking foward an open tournament this weekend.

It is a GWu enchantress with great performance up to now.

Here it is:

4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Elephant Grass
4 Utopia Sprawl
3 Wild Growth
3 Mirri's Guile
2 Solitary Confinement
1 Detention Sphere
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Karmic Justice
3 Rest in Peace
2 Helm of Obedience
4 Sterling Grove
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
2 Serra's Sanctum
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Karakas
1 Savannah
1 Tropical Island
4 Plains
5 Forest
1 Energy Field
SB: 1 Energy Field
SB: 1 Oblivion Ring
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 1 City of Solitude
SB: 1 Sphere of Safety
SB: 1 Moat
SB: 1 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Mana Maze
SB: 1 Humility

Some comments:

Mirri's guile: when i run GWr enchantress 3 off worked far well. The question that arises is how do you see if i go for 2 off and add a toolbox enchantment let's say moat?
Mana maze: is a fast response to combo if you dont get an opening leyline. Did you test it against elves? It's almost gg!! Would you replace it with in the eye of chaos?
Humility: against elves and S and T fits perfect as well as s. of safety.
Leyline: Do you think that a set is too much? I know that combo is our worst mu but a skilled combo player will go for EtW which is not so dangerous but makes leyline a bit less useful and drawing into much of them is nasty. Any impression?

I still love winning games with helm + rip and locking down with EF + Rip. However i splited 2/1 confinement/ field because when confinement lands shuts down almost any kind of .oponent response, discard mainly.

All in all the main concern i found with the list is filtering into blue. In contrast to GWr when you need just r in all the game, here we do need at least UU or more game two.
Anyway the decks Works almost perfectly to me.

Any comment is apreciated.

GC.

[Mortox]

Enchantress seems like it's become a little better situated in the meta lately, at least the versions running the MD RiP, due to the popularity of all these Loam Land decks popping up. Have seen quite a bit more Reanimator and Dredge on mtgo lately as well.

I wonder if a GWr build running Blood Moon maindeck could be possible. Use Words of War as your primary wincon, perhaps cut some number of Serra's Sanctums due to dis-synergy, hell maybe even run 1 or 2 Wild Research (I can dream can't I?) If I went with something like this I'd probably drop the Emrakul, again due to the dis-synergy with Serra's Sanctum and Blood Moon. Then again I guess the Blood Moon could just be sideboard, but there's just so many land-greedy decks out there right now that I feel like attacking lands and graveyards is extremely powerful atm.

Anyway just an observation, maybe I'll brew something up and play around with it a little later. If anyone has any input or has toyed around with any of this feel free to chime in.

[swordoffireandice]

I agree attaking lands and GY is a great way to go. I use Back to Basics main deck.
I just wish for a suitable replacement (enchantment) for Argothian....then we can play Humility also main deck!

[GoldenCid]

Enchantress seems like it's become a little better situated in the meta lately, at least the versions running the MD RiP, due to the popularity of all these Loam Land decks popping up. Have seen quite a bit more Reanimator and Dredge on mtgo lately as well.

I wonder if a GWr build running Blood Moon maindeck could be possible. Use Words of War as your primary wincon, perhaps cut some number of Serra's Sanctums due to dis-synergy, hell maybe even run 1 or 2 Wild Research (I can dream can't I?) If I went with something like this I'd probably drop the Emrakul, again due to the dis-synergy with Serra's Sanctum and Blood Moon. Then again I guess the Blood Moon could just be sideboard, but there's just so many land-greedy decks out there right now that I feel like attacking lands and graveyards is extremely powerful atm.

Anyway just an observation, maybe I'll brew something up and play around with it a little later. If anyone has any input or has toyed around with any of this feel free to chime in.

In my experience blood moon is a good side card. I dont find it useful maindeck as a toolbox enchantment. I mean it is good but probably youcould run a more versatile enchantments instead. However if you feel confortable with it just go for it.

Im not completely convinced if blue splash is better tan red or viceversa. Each other has its strenght and weakness. Nowadays i choose blue because it allow us to drop a very hard lock early (Field + rip) or simply drop field to buy ine or 2 turn and shape the table for confinement or even winning.

GC

[gregtron]

In my experience blood moon is a good side card. I dont find it useful maindeck as a toolbox enchantment. I mean it is good but probably youcould run a more versatile enchantments instead. However if you feel confortable with it just go for it.

Im not completely convinced if blue splash is better tan red or viceversa. Each other has its strenght and weakness. Nowadays i choose blue because it allow us to drop a very hard lock early (Field + rip) or simply drop field to buy ine or 2 turn and shape the table for confinement or even winning.

GC

I'm pretty sure I agree with you. I've been running the red splash for Words and Blood Moon, but I've run into it being a nonmbo enough times to be annoyed; I want to generate a boatload of mana, but am restricted by Moon on my Sanctums. Sideboard seems fine, since it completely stops some decks, but I am pretty sure I don't want to main it. Also, I assume that moving forward, a lot of decks (BUG comes to mind) will be forced to address cards like Blood Moon from not only fringe decks (like Enchantress or Mono-Red Sneak Attack), but mainstream archetypes (Sneak and Show).

Blue sounds intriguing, though, and I think I'm going to move that direction and use Helm as my kill. Some of you more experienced Solitaire players correct me if I'm wrong, but it feels like this deck wants to address, in order of priority, 1) how to survive, 2) how to completely lock the game down, 3) how to win. It's like a Stasis or Vault/Key lock in that it's the implementation of the lock that's important, with winning being a detail.

[btm10]

I'm totally unimpressed with Energy Field + RiP. It's strictly worse than confinement + enchantress, and field is actually pretty bad on its own. Blue provides a lot of good options, though. I've really liked In the Eye of Chaos, Ancestral Knowledge, Back to Basics and Psychic Surgery.

I've always been happy with Blood Moon in the red splash version, though. If you build your deck to accommodate it, it's very rarely weak, and it's almost always a must-counter.

[Dihensoeur]

A simple opinion:
If you want to play Red:
- don't play Words of War because it needs too many manas and enchantments (at least 20manas with 10 enchantments that cost 1) and a big setup (many argothian/presence)
- Obvious play Blood Moon x1 (maybe another in side)
- Play Seal of fire that allow you to manage the board (Clique, Thalia, Deathrite Shaman, Elves, Delver, Canonist, SoL,....... a long list!)

Otherwise:
- don't forget that Energy Field and Solitary Confinement don't work for Deathrite Shaman.
- don't forget that you have no chance vs combo.deck if you don't play at least 6 real hate combo MD (and more in side).

Good luk people

[Potawo]

Is there a good reason to not playing suppression field? It's a very good enchantment against death and taxes, elf and decks with many fetch.

[Tempus]

Is there a good reason to not playing suppression field? It's a very good enchantment against death and taxes, elf and decks with many fetch.

Don't forget Deathrite Shaman (Jund, Rock), Sensei's Divining Top (Miracles, Doomsday), Pernicious Deed (BUG Control Nic Fit), Stoneforge Mystic (Blade Control) and every Planeswalker (So basically every non tempo deck, non combo deck).

[Dihensoeur]

Is there a good reason to not playing suppression field? It's a very good enchantment against death and taxes, elf and decks with many fetch.

Becareful, Suppression Field doesn't affect elves, it doesn't affect mana abilities (but work for Deathrite Shaman because its first ability is not a mana ability). It could affect Quirion Ranger and Wirewood Symbiote but Elves doesn't care of pay 2 additional manas...

Otherwise, Suppression Field x1 on the battlefield annoys opponents but not more (and totally inefficient VS combo.deck), x2 and more on the battlefield are efficient but you need so to have many on the battlefield and that is a problem. Moreover, take slots for this card means less slots for management cards and it's crucial for Enchantress to have many management cards.

[gregtron]

Did anyone else see that Mirri's Guile shot up in price overnight?

[swordoffireandice]

Today i was looking through some enchentments and came across Dark Tutelage...

http://deckbox.org/mtg/Dark%20Tutelage

Has anyone tried this card before in an enchantress deck? With Mirri's Guile you shouldn't take a lot of damage....nothing if you keep a land on top....

[gregtron]

Today i was looking through some enchentments and came across Dark Tutelage...

http://deckbox.org/mtg/Dark%20Tutelage

Has anyone tried this card before in an enchantress deck? With Mirri's Guile you shouldn't take a lot of damage....nothing if you keep a land on top....

Wouldn't you rather have Phyrexian Arena and only pay 1 life a turn? Or, you know, an Enchantress?

[Kulta]

Oeh I like that enchantress idea, tell me more :P
I am however quite intruiged by the inclusion of cadaverous bloom in the deck, does anyone have any experience with that?

[Freggle]

Suppression Field is a swingy card. Sometimes it is awesome, other times it's lame. If you are going to run it it should likely be sideboard or paired with other mana depletion / strategies.

If I would build a Black / Green Enchantress build. I'd start with this mock-up I just threw together.

4 Argothian Enchantress

4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Words of Waste
4 Wild Growth
3 Abundant Growth
4 Sylvan Library
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Contamination
4 BitterBlossom
3 Quest for the Nihil Stone
2 Green Sun's


4 Verdant Catacombs
10 Forest
6 Swamp

Just deplete the hands and win with BB or Stone. Contamination and BB just seems downright fun / powerful. I May throw this together on MTGO to see how bad it is ...and tweak it.

[slave]

My deck is currently RGW (words of war, otherwise typical GW), and I've been looking at Wild Research.
With 8 draw effects the deck has a decent chance of having a full hand and making the discard less of a dealbreaker.
I've been looking at it hard, but it seems like I wouldn't want to use it with a replenish in hand....

Is it playable?

[Freggle]

Suppression Field is a swingy card. Sometimes it is awesome, other times it's lame. If you are going to run it it should likely be sideboard or paired with other mana depletion / strategies.

If I would build a Black / Green Enchantress build. I'd start with this mock-up I just threw together.

4 Argothian Enchantress

4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Words of Waste
4 Wild Growth
3 Abundant Growth
4 Sylvan Library
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Contamination
4 BitterBlossom
3 Quest for the Nihil Stone
2 Green Sun's


4 Verdant Catacombs
10 Forest
6 Swamp

Just deplete the hands and win with BB or Stone. Contamination and BB just seems downright fun / powerful. I May throw this together on MTGO to see how bad it is ...and tweak it.

So I tested it. Pretty horrible.

[Kulta]

I was thinking more along the lines of either a single Cadaverous Bloom or as a two of, a bit like words of war in the GWr builds, to be able to go of in a big way with some enchantresses on board and exiling stuff to keep casting all the wild growth's and drawing most of the deck. I remember you mentioning Eureka at some point in the thread and this could fill a similair role, just ramping into either Emrakul or rip helm with City of Solitude out or playing a Silence et al. somewhere in the turn.
I don't realy like words of waste, but being slightly more black would give us acces to Duress/Thoughtseize for the harder combo matchups as well as Dread of night/Engineered plague in the board for Death and Taxes etc.
This is what I'm trying to compile at the moment, I'm not a rich man nor do I play on modo so it might take some time with trading and saving up for those prohibitively expensive legends (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Karakas) cards (http://deckbox.org/mtg/The%20Abyss).

[swordoffireandice]

So I tested it. Pretty horrible.

LOL :laugh:

[Just me]

I was thinking more along the lines of either a single Cadaverous Bloom or as a two of, a bit like words of war in the GWr builds, to be able to go of in a big way with some enchantresses on board and exiling stuff to keep casting all the wild growth's and drawing most of the deck. I remember you mentioning Eureka at some point in the thread and this could fill a similair role, just ramping into either Emrakul or rip helm with City of Solitude out or playing a Silence et al. somewhere in the turn.
I don't realy like words of waste, but being slightly more black would give us acces to Duress/Thoughtseize for the harder combo matchups as well as Dread of night/Engineered plague in the board for Death and Taxes etc.
This is what I'm trying to compile at the moment, I'm not a rich man nor do I play on modo so it might take some time with trading and saving up for those prohibitively expensive legends (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Karakas) cards (http://deckbox.org/mtg/The%20Abyss).

Squandered Resources + Cadaverous Bloom + (possibly) Land Tax is a great combo engine in Enchantress.

Thing is, the deck becomes more combo, less control. The clock barely changes with this change since it requires the same setup (2 active Enchantress effects really) and that's where the deck is vulnerable. However, it's a very nice version. Just keeping making mana, cast 1cc enchantments and finally dig into Tendrils of Agony. I have playtested this setup a (long) while ago. It works, it's surprising but the speed is the same and that's the issue. Besides the core (mana + Enchantress) the deck is filled with combo (mainly). With a more traditional white (or blue) build, the combo-pieces are exchanged for control, buying the time needed to get things to a point where Enchantress gets the momentum.

[Kulta]

Squandered Resources + Cadaverous Bloom + (possibly) Land Tax is a great combo engine in Enchantress.

Thing is, the deck becomes more combo, less control. The clock barely changes with this change since it requires the same setup (2 active Enchantress effects really) and that's where the deck is vulnerable. However, it's a very nice version. Just keeping making mana, cast 1cc enchantments and finally dig into Tendrils of Agony. I have playtested this setup a (long) while ago. It works, it's surprising but the speed is the same and that's the issue. Besides the core (mana + Enchantress) the deck is filled with combo (mainly). With a more traditional white (or blue) build, the combo-pieces are exchanged for control, buying the time needed to get things to a point where Enchantress gets the momentum.

Good to know, I thought it might have helped in creating a more consistent kill after the control phase of the game and maybe a turn earlier, but enchantress as a combo deck is not the place where it wants to be, as a combo we are slower than the rest with no counters/discard backup. We are better of making the opponent feel miserable through a nice lock.
I do however love both playing black and the draw a card keyword so I will try to make some black shenanigans happen.

[domajm32]

I went to a legacy event at my LGS last Sunday with this list :
LAND 20
1 Karakas
1 Plains
1 Savannah
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Serra's Sanctum
9 Forest

Creatures 5
4 Argothian Enchantress
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Enchantments 33
1 Sphere of Safety
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Mirri's Guile
3 Rest in Peace
3 Solitary Confinement
3 Sterling Grove
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Elephant Grass
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Enchantress's Presence

Artifact 2
2 Helm of Obedience

SB 14
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Suppression Field
2 Aura of Silence
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Choke
2 Carpet of Flowers
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Warmth

Event had around 20-24 players, a rather varied meta some of the decks included 2 pox, manaless dreadge, a bug delver and shardless bug, budget reanimator and merfolk, a few affinity, countertop or miracles, tin fins, goblins, and hightide that's all i remember seeing...

Round 1 starts off with the guy I'm paired with still sleeving his deck which was a mono black reanimator. Surprisingly we start in a relative decent amount of time.
Game 1 goes me on the play start with a wild growth on forest pass turn. Opponent entombs, almost putting inkwell leviathan in yard then change mind to sphinx of the steel wind, he passes. I turn 2 an argothian followed by an elephant grass and ride it out until a helm win.
+2 Faerie Macabre / -2 Leylines
Game 2 on the draw. Opponent lands a turn 2 wurmcoil, connecting twice, I end up with a Eramkul win on turn 4.

2-0 / 1-0 Good start

Round 2 paired up with the more budget merfolk (no Forces) rather formidable however.
Game 1 on the play start out with turn 1 wild growth. Opponent has a hand of counters and counter pretty much everything I do... I lose turn 3 or 4, turn 4 more likely.
+2 Carpet of flowers +1 Choke/-3 leylines
Game 2 on the play, bait out a few of his counters and then confinement lock him out of the game and win with emrakul.
Game 3 on the draw and opponent mulls to 6. opponent has a relative low counter hand. I keep a hand with emrakul, enchantress effect 3 wild growths effect and 2 lands. I ramps rather fast to emrakul with the help of a drawn sanctum.

2-1 / 2-0 Starting to get a little excited about how things are going so far.

Round 3 paired with shardless BUG.
Game 1 locked opponent out of the game relatively quick and pull out win with emrakul. this game was kind of funny in the way when buy the time I was able to cast emrakul he had a substantial board including a pair of baleful strix. When I swing in with emi he sacs his 6 permanents the chumps with baleful strix then i just karakas him back to hand and cast him again, once he realized I could keep doing that not giving time walking him in indefinably he scoops.
+2 Carpet of flowers, +1 Choke, +2 Oblivion Rings / -2 leylines, -1 wild growth, -1 utopia sprawl, -1 Sphere of Safety.
Game 2 on the draw. Played land and wild growth passed turn. Opponent hymns. Oppenent is able to abrupt decay my presence's and I'm not able to keep up with tthe damage from goyf.
-2 Oblivion ring / +2 Leylines
Game 3 unable to draw into a leyline but keep at decent hand with 2 presence's and some ramp. Opponent hymns again getting a enchantress and a wild growth and abrupt decays the other one I'm able to get into play. I draw into all lands and no answers...

1-2 / 2-1 Still feeling confident, chalked up the last loss to bad luck.

Round 4 I get paired with pox...
Game 1 I knew I was playing pox and knew I had to draw into a leyline. I mull to 6 on the draw and keep a decent hand and hope for the best. Opponent keeps a hand with 3 sinkholes and wasteland, this game went poorly for one of us, take a guess which one.
+2 Aura of Silence +1 Suppression Field / -3 Sterling Groove
Game 2 had to hope for a leyline, mull to 5 looking for one, didn't find one. I get hymned for all my go cards and draw nothing but lands until I die.

Went 2-2 for the day and overall I felt pretty good that with some minor tweeks I could be competitive in the meta with this deck. Most people were surprised and interested in my deck, that seemed cool. Looking for any advise and critiques on how you think I could improve this list.
The SB felt a bit lacking in some cases but right on in others, I some ideas on how to improve it, but went into a speculated meta.

[Potawo]

thx for the report domajm32. Do you think it's the good choice to play 4 leyline main deck?

I made some playtests this WE with a friend and i found Elephant grass pretty useless. Most of the time, i use it to trigger my enchantress effects and i sacrifice it during my next upkeep... In early game it's a big loose of tempo and on late game you don't need it! For which matchup do you need it? Do you usually side it out?

[domajm32]

The main deck leylines were there to hopefully improve my game 1 against combo, however the only combo at this event was tin-fins. In my area there are 5-6 ANT or TES players. Also helps against the tezz win from affinity and helps make hymn a dead card.
The turn 2 elephant grass against the mono black reanimator won me that game, also kept merfolk in check until I landed the confinement. Your right that about half the time it's kind of a dead card.
A friend of mine that plays in the meta runs the gate which I think the grasses and leylines main give me a very good game one percentage. Mostly a meta call I think.
Potawo what did you play test against? I do side out the grasses when they don't do much for me.
Thanks for the input, I will definitely need to meta tweek this.

[nedleeds]

White leyline is fantastic vs. Liliana, discard spells and the random burn deck here and there. I think I'd cheat a little run 2-3 main since you can actually cast it pretty quick.

There's really no point in not running Moat in the 75. Grass is meh, slamming a moat free's up your mana and is an auto win vs. Merfolk who I think have taken Coralhelm out.

[Potawo]

Potawo what did you play test against? I do side out the grasses when they don't do much for me.
Thanks for the input, I will definitely need to meta tweek this.

I mainly tested against Bug and ur delver + death & taxes (and a little bit against show and tell). I played a list with RIP/helm, 3 gsz, 1 city of solitude and a personal touch with 1 terastodon MD (good when paired with RIP)
For few games i tried 4 suppression field instead of 4 elephant grass and i found it much more usefull!

[btm10]

There's really no point in not running Moat in the 75. Grass is meh, slamming a moat free's up your mana and is an auto win vs. Merfolk who I think have taken Coralhelm out.

The point in not running Moat is that it doesn't help in your bad matchups and is win-more in your good ones. Grass is good because it comes out early, which is when you need it most, and is a 1cc enchantment for when you have Confinement/Sphere online and just want to chain draws together. Most doesn't autowin vs. anything that Sphere doesn't and it doesn't stop the creatures it needs to stop most (flipped Delvers, Griselbrand, Emrakul) because they fly. Grass/Sphere is the optimal anti-attack step package in all but the strangest metagames.

[GoldenCid]

Went to a 113 man torunament wiht enchantress (GWu). It was ok for me 4-3 facing all BG splashes with liliana aaall of them. Jund, UBw, rock , BUG, the new lands based deck (with liliana) then rug and ant. Very hard...i choose u as splash because it offer us the option of set a fast lock that does not depends on enchantress effect maily.
Liliana is a very hot dangerous girl. I hate the card. I suffered it T1 in last round with mull to 5 however i managed to win that game! :)

For me, the main concern with enchantress is what class of problem do you want to solve with the splash. U allows us to "scape" from TNN and burn faster (i expected this in my meta). Moreover i added detention sphere to eat double copies of goyf or even an horde of goblin tokens. I most of cases it was as well as an o-ring with a couple of exceptions but i'm not sure if they are significant. Finally i took words of win as "3rd win cond". Didnt need it as side it out every time. I didnt took attunement first because i didnt own it (now i own 3) and second because i think that my deck is not designed for it.
Helm + rip is a solid pretty fast win cond taht you can get even from a topdeck (as it happened against BGw) so i'll try to keep it main deck. Rip slows down ogyf, shaman and mongoose pretty well. However i have to admit that many times i wished i had a replenish. Another card u adds is inthe eye of chaos which is insane but im not sure necesary.

Black splash sound pretty fun. It allows us to destroy the hand of the oponent, conserve the helm condition and add bounches of mana with bloom to cast emy or a high tendrils. I m not sure if improves any mu but it's n interesting spalsh.

Red splash adds words of war, an excellent win cond and blood moon which could be game if it hits the field in the proper moment.

All in all, i wander if just GW enchantress is the best choice. Confinement, rip-helm, sphere / moat. grass, 8 enchantress efects, o-ring and so on.

Oh, if you are interested this is the list in took:

2 Serra
6 forest
1 savannah
1 karakas
1 tropical
6 fetchs
3 plains

4 presence
4 argothian
4 grass
4 utopia
3 wild growth
3 mirri

1 o-ring
2 confinement
1 throne
3 rip
2 E. tutor

1 Detention sphere
4 Grove

1 words of wind
1 e. field

2 Helm

Side:

1 moat
1 K. justice
3 carpet
1 city of solitude (maybe too anti-u hate)
1 o-ring
4 Leyline
1 Rule of law
1 Rip
1 E field
1 Humility

Some notes: make lots of mulligan during the tournament, however that wasnt decisive for winning or loosing. Had some trouble for sideboarding specially when in the other side there was blue. As i said maybe 4 slots dedicated to that MU is simply too much. Sometimes i used 61 cards deck in 2nd and 3rd games.
Overall the deck works fine it becomes annoying for the opo but your brain slows down round after round which made me make some mistakes (almost never decisive). Im glad.

Any comment?

Thx

GC

[Freggle]

The point in not running Moat is that it doesn't help in your bad matchups and is win-more in your good ones. Grass is good because it comes out early, which is when you need it most, and is a 1cc enchantment for when you have Confinement/Sphere online and just want to chain draws together. Most doesn't autowin vs. anything that Sphere doesn't and it doesn't stop the creatures it needs to stop most (flipped Delvers, Griselbrand, Emrakul) because they fly. Grass/Sphere is the optimal anti-attack step package in all but the strangest metagames.

Agreed. I have a love hate relationship with Elephant Grass but it's hardly nota 3 of in the 75. Sometimes main (as it is currently) sometimes in the board, but it is too good at what it does. ...and surprisingly effective against Sneak and Show as it makes them have 6 mana to through the breech or Sneak Attack or just plain stops Grizzy. This gives you enough time to GSZ Gaddock to really make them dig.

@domajm32:

First off your run wasn't too bad, and I'm very happy to read that your conclusion was you went 2-2 therefore Enchantress is not good in this meta. I really like the way you are approaching this.

Having the Leylines main does seem correct for your meta, but it does bring the combo elements of the deck (i.e. the big draw turns) down. I assume your mana base is a result of not having access to Windswept Heath? Fetching into a Savannah can be dangerous as we need all the mana we can get, and it is a juicy waste / port target. ...I guess it's not too bad if you can back it up with other basics, but I would not keep a hand with Savannah and other growth effects unless I was desperate (like a mull to 5.)

I have been running 1 plains and 4 windswepts, 4 Utopia Sprawl, 2 Abundant Growth, 1-2 Karakas (more on this later), 4 Serra's and been very happy with the base.

@ 0 Green Sun's - I'm not saying you have to go crazy and run all 4 but to run 0 does seem incorrect. Running Sterling Grove is not a replacement as grove is not an efficient tutor and you will tempo yourself, and needlessly expose yourself to Abrupt Decay's if you do sac it to find a presence in the BGx match-up where you need to 9-10+ effects to power through.

The past week of so I have been testing 2 Crop Rotation and have been pretty impressed with the card. It allows me to run (1) Karakas and count on having it when I need to bounce a legend as well as chain 3 Serra's Sanctums in a turn provided I started the turn with 1 play one and rotate one. Out of the board it becomes part of my graveyard hate when I bring in Bojuka Bog. You would be surprised the amount of Merit Lieges and Emrakuls I have bounced this way. The only thing that sucks is it is not an enchantment nor draws a card which has come-up a few times but not often. The non-draw did not result in a game loss though.

It also has been used to just simply get a shuffle when I don't like the guile.

Questions: What are the Warmths for? ...and does (1) Suppression Field feel correct in your play? It seems to me likeit is an effect you want to stack.

[domajm32]

Agreed. I have a love hate relationship with Elephant Grass but it's hardly nota 3 of in the 75. Sometimes main (as it is currently) sometimes in the board, but it is too good at what it does. ...and surprisingly effective against Sneak and Show as it makes them have 6 mana to through the breech or Sneak Attack or just plain stops Grizzy. This gives you enough time to GSZ Gaddock to really make them dig.

@domajm32:

First off your run wasn't too bad, and I'm very happy to read that your conclusion was you went 2-2 therefore Enchantress is not good in this meta. I really like the way you are approaching this.

Having the Leylines main does seem correct for your meta, but it does bring the combo elements of the deck (i.e. the big draw turns) down. I assume your mana base is a result of not having access to Windswept Heath? Fetching into a Savannah can be dangerous as we need all the mana we can get, and it is a juicy waste / port target. ...I guess it's not too bad if you can back it up with other basics, but I would not keep a hand with Savannah and other growth effects unless I was desperate (like a mull to 5.)

I have been running 1 plains and 4 windswepts, 4 Utopia Sprawl, 2 Abundant Growth, 1-2 Karakas (more on this later), 4 Serra's and been very happy with the base.

@ 0 Green Sun's - I'm not saying you have to go crazy and run all 4 but to run 0 does seem incorrect. Running Sterling Grove is not a replacement as grove is not an efficient tutor and you will tempo yourself, and needlessly expose yourself to Abrupt Decay's if you do sac it to find a presence in the BGx match-up where you need to 9-10+ effects to power through.

The past week of so I have been testing 2 Crop Rotation and have been pretty impressed with the card. It allows me to run (1) Karakas and count on having it when I need to bounce a legend as well as chain 3 Serra's Sanctums in a turn provided I started the turn with 1 play one and rotate one. Out of the board it becomes part of my graveyard hate when I bring in Bojuka Bog. You would be surprised the amount of Merit Lieges and Emrakuls I have bounced this way. The only thing that sucks is it is not an enchantment nor draws a card which has come-up a few times but not often. The non-draw did not result in a game loss though.

It also has been used to just simply get a shuffle when I don't like the guile.

Questions: What are the Warmths for? ...and does (1) Suppression Field feel correct in your play? It seems to me likeit is an effect you want to stack.

My list has 2 heaths and 2 catacombs was kind of a typo (was going on memory). I think the GSZ is something I should fit in the list. Perhaps taking out the groves? I like the suppression fields a lot and plan on adding more. The warmths were in there because they have worked very well against burn they have won me games against them in the past. I'm attending another event this Sunday with a different sb and perhaps changing up the main slightly. Thanks for the insight.

[Dihensoeur]

Hi all,
I'm working about an Enchantress list that I think that is the good way to make Enchantress competitive.
I'm not the time to test it actually, so if anybody want to try it. I would be grateful.

We have all tested many kind of enchantress builds: GW, GWR, GWU, GU and GUB. But no one seems to be really competitive (specially when we have to fight combo in G1).
So, which is the good combinaison to build a competitive enchantress?

My opinion:

Green: Obvious Enchantress build have to be Green (and very Green) for cards that everybody knows.
White: The white is powerful, mainly with Rest in peace that is a excellent card in the actual meta, Solitary confinement, Karakas, ... So it's important to play white.

But, to be competitive, we need a very good weapon VS combo that have to be MD. The best weapons to fight combo is discard and/or counterspell (unfortunately no enchantments and no green or white spells), so we need at least to play 3 colors by adding either blue for counterspell either black for discard.

Blue color means to play FoW (but to play FoW, we need to play at least 16 blue cards that's is impossible for us), Daze (means to play island and/or tropical island that will weaken the mana base), or spell pierce (means to keep blue mana open and can block us many mana when the blue mana is given by an utopia).

So the last possibility is Black for discard but which one ? And how many ?
We want to put key cards like Argothian/presence or kill card (RiP/Helm) safely, so we want to discard counterspell before playing key cards. Moreover, combo play many non-creature spells (except Elves) so => Duress seems to be a good choice. But, I want to be efficient vs all combo so Elves too. So I need more discard card. The best is Thoughtseize but lose 2lifes can be very dangerous when we fight non-combo deck. That's why I suggest to put it to the sideboard for G2/G3 VS Combo (where we can consume life easily). But we need more discard card than x3,x4 Duress MD to have a chance VS combo.deck and we need discard that can be efficient VS Elves => Inquisition of Kozilek.
Inquisition of Kozilek help us to fight combo.deck (elves included) and it's a good card vs non-combo.deck to discard Abrupt Decay or TNN or Liliana...It's not important that the card can't discard FoW because when you discard a card, you don't target FoW if possible but another blue card (that will be more efficient).

So, for me, we need to have at least x3 Duress + x3 Inquisition of Kozilek MD and x3 Thoughtseize in SB to enhance the MU combo.

Discard cards are not enchantment but give us chance to fight combo and to put combo/key cards on the battlefied.

So, I suggest to play an GWB Enchantress build.

My personal list (that I will test when I will find time):


1 Bayou
1 Karakas
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
9 Forest

1 Nylea, God of the Hunt
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Leafcrown Dryad

1 Helm of Obedience
2 Cloudstone Curio

1 Sphere of Safety
3 Rest in Peace
3 Solitary Confinement
4 Abundant Growth
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth

1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Duress
3 Inquisition of Kozilek

Sideboard

2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Cursed Totem
3 Seal of Primordium
3 Thoughtseize


In order to not make a huge post, I don't explain my choices in this post (and maybe you don't care about them) but if you want to know my choices on my list (why god? Why Tendrils? ...) please ask me and I will answer you.

Regards,
Dihensoeur

[nedleeds]

The point in not running Moat is that it doesn't help in your bad matchups and is win-more in your good ones. Grass is good because it comes out early, which is when you need it most, and is a 1cc enchantment for when you have Confinement/Sphere online and just want to chain draws together. Most doesn't autowin vs. anything that Sphere doesn't and it doesn't stop the creatures it needs to stop most (flipped Delvers, Griselbrand, Emrakul) because they fly. Grass/Sphere is the optimal anti-attack step package in all but the strangest metagames.

Sphere is great when you are winning. It's pretty horrible when they just need to push one equipped guy through for lethal, same with Elephant Grass - which has the awful upkeep cost.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Dihensoeur, it's unreasonable to add non-enchantments to your deck. Even if it improves combo mu, at what cost? Do you really plan to play Duress instead of WG on trun1 against unknown opponent? What if you need to chain draws and become stopped by IoK?
I'd play Runed Halo and Leyline of Sanctity before discard. Yes, both of them do very little against Emrakul, but preboard they're pretty gg for any storm, unless they find a way how to sneak the goblin horde around your taxing effect.

[Dihensoeur]

Dihensoeur, it's unreasonable to add non-enchantments to your deck.
I want to make enchantress competitive. You have no other solution to have chance VS combo.deck G1 (but you can prove me that I'm wrong). But if you prefer playing Enchantress as a casual deck ok you can easily play 100% enchantments cards.



Even if it improves combo mu, at what cost? Do you really plan to play Duress instead of WG on trun1 against unknown opponent?

No, my plan isn't to play always discard turn1. You don't play cards without meditate. And all combo.deck doesn't kill T1 so you can generally play your enchant land T1 and start discard T2 depending of your opponent. But if my opponent start and play a forest + elve or a underground sea, yes I play discard T1 because next turn Enchantress will die. Tell me what do you do T1/T2 G1 to avoid to die vs all combo.deck? If you can't that means your enchantress build can't be competitive. But if you have a solution, please tell me!



What if you need to chain draws and become stopped by IoK?

I don't need to draws infinite cards to win. You just need to have what you want to manage the board and win by a way (and I have 3 differents ways).
Discard can allow you to safely put your card. What do you do when opponent counter/destroy your win con/Argo/presence ? What do you do if you can't chain draws because all Argo/Presence are managed ?



I'd play Runed Halo and Leyline of Sanctity before discard. Yes, both of them do very little against Emrakul, but preboard they're pretty gg for any storm, unless they find a way how to sneak the goblin horde around your taxing effect.
Runed Halo and Leyline of Sanctity are totally inefficient vs all combo.deck. They could annoy only ANT (but a good ANT player can always win), but it's all. Elves/Show.deck are totally no-affected.

[Mr. Froggy]

Is Gwr Enchantress still viable? Or is it eschewed for straight Gw?

[btm10]

Long post.

The fact that you're singling out Elves and Show and Tell decks as the combo matches you're trying to beat with 9-12 Duress effects strongly indicates that you haven't got enough reps in with any Enchantress variant to be making these huge design changes. While Omnitell is awful, Sneak is actually tractable, as combo matches go. Elves is Enchantress's best combo matchup already (not counting Solidarity and other super slow decks). These matchups are still unfavorable, but our way of making Enchantress competitive should be to find the right balance of tools rather than install the engine in a weak Junk aggro shell.


Is Gwr Enchantress still viable? Or is it eschewed for straight Gw?

I'm really on the fence about it. Freggle has had success with GW, but I miss a lot of things from the different splashes when I run without them. I'm not sure which splash is best at this point, but they do add things.



Sphere is great when you are winning. It's pretty horrible when they just need to push one equipped guy through for lethal, same with Elephant Grass - which has the awful upkeep cost.

Cumulative upkeep 1 is hardly 'awful'. The taxing effect of Grass is huge in tempo matchups, where it forces them to either burn their Abrupt Decays on Grass (if they have them) or play the game at your pace. Daze under Grass is a huge problem for them so you also get an extra layer of protection for your stuff. The switch away from Most in favor of Sphere was slow, but the switch happened for a reason. Sphere is great as a standalone lock against creatures, including those that Most can't stop. You don't have to be winning to have 3 enchantments+Sphere out, and that is plenty to tax an opponent off of his/her attack step.

@Freggle - I'vr been on and off with Rotation in various roles for a while now and I'm not sure that I like it enough. I'll have to test it with 4 Sanctum, though.

[Dihensoeur]

The fact that you're singling out Elves and Show and Tell decks as the combo matches you're trying to beat with 9-12 Duress effects strongly indicates that you haven't got enough reps in with any Enchantress variant to be making these huge design changes.
It's not "you haven't got enough reps" but "Enchantress haven't got enough reps".




While Omnitell is awful, Sneak is actually tractable, as combo matches go. Elves is Enchantress's best combo matchup already (not counting Solidarity and other super slow decks).

How much you estimated Elves matchup ? 30/70? I'm interesting by your answer.



These matchups are still unfavorable, but our way of making Enchantress competitive should be to find the right balance of tools rather than install the engine in a weak Junk aggro shell.

Could you give me some arguments instead of insult my suggestion. I never insult you or your build so please don't do that. I explained why I find all Enchantress builds in this topic not competitive. If you're not agree, defend yourself with arguments please.

I thought this topic was to discuss about Enchantress build in the goal to make it competitive, by proposing ideas where anyone can show his opinion with arguments, by sharing his personal experience...
But maybe I'm wrong. In this case, I have no place here. So I leave you and sorry for the inconvenience of my posts.

Regards,
Dihensoeur

[anakyn]

I want to make enchantress competitive. You have no other solution to have chance VS combo.deck G1 (but you can prove me that I'm wrong). But if you prefer playing Enchantress as a casual deck ok you can easily play 100% enchantments cards.


I keep reading that Enchantress has "no pre-board solution" to Combo decks... it's not true at all.

Never played Living Wish for example?

I've been playing straight GW Enchantress for months, using 3 Living Wish both to find solution to combo (Gaddock, Canonist, Karakas) and my second win condition besides Throne (Emrakul), and it works pretty well. I also play the 3rd Sanctum and the 4th Argothian in the sideboard, so Living wish can grab an "engine" too, not only combo answers and win conditions. It's never a dead card if you build the Wishboard correctly.
With 3 GSZ and 3 Living wish, I never feel the necessity to splash another color.

- Karakas is pretty strong against both Reanimator and Sneak & Show, and with a turn 1 Sprawl / Growth it can come down on our second turn (Living Wish --> take Karakas --> play Karakas --> have fun).
- ANT sometimes is slow enough to let us Living wish --> take Canonist / Gaddock --> play Canonist / Gaddock on our 3rd turn
- TES is faster but it usually goes for the Warrens plan, in which case we just play Elephant grass and we have plenty of time to find any other solution (Confinement / Sphere). If it has to go for Tendrils, it's usually slower and we can follow the same road described for ANT

Post-board it becomes easier because with 3 (or 4) GSZ Canonist and Gaddock can come down faster, which means that on our second turn we should find the right solution to our combo opponent.

It's not that Combo suddenly becomes favorable, but surely it's not an autolose. Not even pre-board if you play Living wish.


Really: why on earth we should play discard and splash other not-synergistic colors to fight combo (and still being weak to it), when we already have an amazing and green tool in Living wish?

[btm10]

It's not "you haven't got enough reps" but "Enchantress haven't got enough reps".



I realize English isn't your first language, so I'll point out that here, "reps" means how many times you've played the deck. From what you've posted so far, it's clear that you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how Enchantress works.



How much you estimated Elves matchup ? 30/70? I'm interesting by your answer.



It's highly splash and build dependent. If you're on straight GW and have 3-4 Grass + 2-3 Confinement +1 Sphere, I'd put it somewhere like 30/70 or even 35/65. This is the one case where Moat would be an improvement on Sphere, but I don't think one deck is enough to warrant the change. If you're on GWb and have 3-4 Engineered Plagues in your 75 you should be something like 35/65 preboard and 40/60 postboard. If Elves were the most prevalent combo deck, Enchantress would be very competitive option.



Could you give me some arguments instead of insult my suggestion. I never insult you or your build so please don't do that. I explained why I find all Enchantress builds in this topic not competitive. If you're not agree, defend yourself with arguments please.

I thought this topic was to discuss about Enchantress build in the goal to make it competitive, by proposing ideas where anyone can show his opinion with arguments, by sharing his personal experience...
But maybe I'm wrong. In this case, I have no place here. So I leave you and sorry for the inconvenience of my posts.

Regards,
Dihensoeur

This is an open forum for discussion. But when you come to a discussion on a very well-established archetype and propose radical changes while suggesting that no one else is trying to make the deck competitive, you should be prepared for skepticism and at least some hostility. It also helps to have at least some testing to back your changes up. Even granting the rest of your list, the fact that you opted to move Thoughtseize to the board in favor of Duress/IoK main suggests that you haven't tested the deck yet, especially given your reasoning for it (if you're paying 2 life to remove a creature like Stoneforge Mystic or Delver, you're pretty happy; if Lightning Bolt had "any opponent may pay 2 life to counter this spell" tacked on to its rules text, it would be worse than Blazing Salvo).

The creature package doesn't seem to make sense. What does Nylea do with your 0/1 and 2/2? Pump the 2/2 when you could be using that mana to play enchantments? Isn't Primal Rage strictly better at giving things trample? Sure, she's a 6/6 for 4, but Sigil is harder to remove and will make considerably more than 6 power for things you'd be doing anyway. Why only 1 GSZ? I may not run it in my builds, but if you're going that route, you should really be running at least 2, and probably 3-4 so you know you'll hit it. For that matter, why aren't you running any other tutor effects? Do you find that your permanents are being constantly destroyed without Grove? Why Tendrils with only 1 MD Bayou? If you look at most of the black-splash lists that have been posted, they don't run spells that need BB, which makes sprawl much better at mana fixing.



I keep reading that Enchantress has "no pre-board solution" to Combo decks... it's not true at all.

Never played Living Wish for example?

I've been playing straight GW Enchantress for months, using 3 Living Wish both to find solution to combo (Gaddock, Canonist, Karakas) and my second win condition besides Throne (Emrakul), and it works pretty well. I also play the 3rd Sanctum and the 4th Argothian in the sideboard, so Living wish can grab an "engine" too, not only combo answers and win conditions. It's never a dead card if you build the Wishboard correctly.
With 3 GSZ and 3 Living wish, I never feel the necessity to splash another color.

- Karakas is pretty strong against both Reanimator and Sneak & Show, and with a turn 1 Sprawl / Growth it can come down on our second turn (Living Wish --> take Karakas --> play Karakas --> have fun).
- ANT sometimes is slow enough to let us Living wish --> take Canonist / Gaddock --> play Canonist / Gaddock on our 3rd turn
- TES is faster but it usually goes for the Warrens plan, in which case we just play Elephant grass and we have plenty of time to find any other solution (Confinement / Sphere). If it has to go for Tendrils, it's usually slower and we can follow the same road described for ANT

Post-board it becomes easier because with 3 (or 4) GSZ Canonist and Gaddock can come down faster, which means that on our second turn we should find the right solution to our combo opponent.

It's not that Combo suddenly becomes favorable, but surely it's not an autolose. Not even pre-board if you play Living wish.


Really: why on earth we should play discard and splash other not-synergistic colors to fight combo (and still being weak to it), when we already have an amazing and green tool in Living wish?



I agree on the combo point and think Wish is actually an interesting idea. I like it better than GSZ because it doesn't take the MD space while still giving virtual copies and more redundancy. Are you running a complete 15 card wishboard, or are there some 'normal' SB cards that you're running as well?

[anakyn]

Are you running a complete 15 card wishboard, or are there some 'normal' SB cards that you're running as well?


Just half my sideboard (6 cards right now, since I cut Eternal Witness some weeks ago) is dedicated to the Wish package, the other half has narrow spells/answers I would never cut, like Stony silence, Ground seal and Choke.
Recently I decided to play 4 Leyline in the board (thanks to a discussion I had with Freggle on Salvation) because I found out Jund to be one of my worst matchups, thus forcing me to play only singles copies of any other sideboard card.
Unlike recent trends, I'm not playing the RIP/Helm combo, mainly because I prefer the Wish route and above all because I value Replenish to be too strong against so many decks.

I will post my list soon; I'm particularly interested in some feedback because from my (local) testing it has proved pretty strong against most of the field :)

[sun tzu]

Just half my sideboard (6 cards right now, since I cut Eternal Witness some weeks ago) is dedicated to the Wish package, the other half has narrow spells/answers I would never cut, like Stony silence, Ground seal and Choke.
Recently I decided to play 4 Leyline in the board (thanks to a discussion I had with Freggle on Salvation) because I found out Jund to be one of my worst matchups, thus forcing me to play only singles copies of any other sideboard card.
Unlike recent trends, I'm not playing the RIP/Helm combo, mainly because I prefer the Wish route and above all because I value Replenish to be too strong against so many decks.

I will post my list soon; I'm particularly interested in some feedback because from my (local) testing it has proved pretty strong against most of the field :)im also interested in your list :D

[btm10]

I've actually got 2 more questions about your list. First, how do you like Emrakul? I've tested him and found it fairly difficult to get to 15 consistently enough to win with him that I feel like Sigil is better. I'd also like to know what your graveyard hate looks like. I'm running Helm/Rest in Peace alongside Argivian Find in what used to be the Replenish slots, but I still occasionally miss Replenish.

[ForlornEgoist]

In regards to Emrakul, the issue I've always taken with him is his "win more," status. By the time Enchantress has the ability to ramp up to 15 mana you can reliably win anyway you so choose beyond the atypical choices of Words of War and Sigil of the Empty Throne. If your meta is prevalent with S&T/SA or Grindstone-based strategies, he is a justifiable main, beyond that hes rather lackluster.

As far as Wish lists are concerned, as someone once sported quite fervently I do believe it really boils down to your playstyle and preference. GSZ gives us some MD tempo without compromising our SB. To me GSZ is first and foremost merely intended as Enchantress's 9-10 with a Vexing Shusher in the SB. The benefit of Wish is, for obvious reasons, the utility it grants. At the time I was using it I did something to the effect of:

MD
-3 Argothian Enchantress
-3 Living Wish

SB
-1 Vexing Shusher
-1 Argothian Enchantress
-1 Harmonic Sliver
-1 Serra's Sanctuary
-1 Karakas
Combo tech (Can't particularly remember what I opted for here).

Running Wish does slow tempo slightly as it gives your opponent a turn to answer your utility not to mention it can disrupt you draws, however it does give you a reasonable array of answers which your generic hate can't answer.

Forlorn Egoist

[Freggle]

In regards to Emrakul, the issue I've always taken with him is his "win more," status. By the time Enchantress has the ability to ramp up to 15 mana you can reliably win anyway you so choose beyond the atypical choices of Words of War and Sigil of the Empty Throne. If your meta is prevalent with S&T/SA or Grindstone-based strategies, he is a justifiable main, beyond that hes rather lackluster.

ForlornEgoist, I'm not disagreeing with your comments on Emrakul as I too held the same sentiment in the past. However, I am wondering if these comments are driven partially by conditions that predate Rest in Peace and the new Legend Rule.

No matter how you cut it 15 mana is a lot of mana, but I do feel that you get every bit of 15 mana out of Emrakul. Emrakul does not get the nod in RIP enchantress over Sigil because of preference it does because it fits a certain type of points the deck needed.

There is a big disconnect between RIP enchantress and GWr Enchantress because GWr has access to Replenish. That means if your 2 to 3 win conditions get countered or destroyed you can just bring them back on the battlefield and win via Replenish. A key feature to those builds.

RIP Enchantress does not share this luxury. The proper play of RIP helm is to land RIP first then resolve Helm so that your opponent does nto get the opportunity to react to your helm activation before it is on the stack. This means however that if it is countered it is exiled. Therefore RIP enchantress does not have the virtual 5-6 wins that GWr has it only has the true 3 (2 Helm, ! other)

The deck ran Sigil for months, but timely counters / discard was a real issue. So in looking for a win condition we were looking for the following:

-It won via the attack (this is to combat player shroud a common way people fight helm)
-It did not require an activated ability (to avoid needles as it is also another common tool that fought helm)
-It was uncounterable (This way timely counters wouldn't just make us auto loose)
-It can be cast with a Gaddock Teeg on the board (in an effort to fight combo decks the deck tried many avenues to fight combo Gaddock was the best, but it also beat ourselves we had to re assess the win)

This left very few options:

-Progenitus -- This could be green suned for so we effectively had more copies and would shuffle in with RIP on the battlefield
-Thrun -- Just too weak. We ignore the board and it could be chumped
-Emrakul -- Was after testing the clear winner.

The fact the Emrakul is a good S&T answer, good against decking, and able to go infinate was all was icing, and raised the power level of the deck.

Therefore in the end I think your assessment of Emrakul in a typical GWr shell is a correct statement. Marginal yet meta specifically justifiable. When it comes to RIP Enchantress it plays a much larger role in the decks success.

You can win without it, but I personally believe you are running a weaker deck. At least for now.

[anakyn]

Here's my list, see you later for comments :)



// Lands (19)

1 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
2 Serra's Sanctum
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
7 Forest
2 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor


// Creatures (3)

3 Argothian Enchantress


// Enchantment Spells (30)

4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
2 Mirri's Guile
3 Elephant Grass
4 Sterling Grove
4 Enchantress's Presence
3 Solitary Confinement
3 Oblivion Ring
1 Humility
1 Sphere of Safety
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne


// Non-Enchantment Spells (8)

3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Living Wish
2 Replenish


// Sideboard
1 Serra's Sanctum
1 Karakas
1 Argothian Enchantress
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Stony Silence
1 Suppression Field
1 Ground Seal
1 City of Solitude
1 Choke
4 Leyline of Sanctity

[ForlornEgoist]

@ Freggle: I'm willing to concede the point that perhaps he does have more MD relevance in other builds. As it stands, my primary experiences lies with the GWr/UG variants. I've no genuine tourney/grinding experience with builds running RIP or the Helm combo, so I won't make outlandish claims about builds I've no experience actually playing. He could very well be much stronger in those builds. The point I made primarily stands, as noted, in the mainstream GWr shells.

@anakyn: Overall your build/SB are somewhat standard in terms of numbers and what they mean to accomplish. My only suggestions would be to decide between GSZ and Wish. Running both often times can weaken opening hands, and frankly they're somewhat contrary to run together. Elect Wish if you need utility to answer a diverse meta. Elect GSZ if you're against standard decks and are simply looking for a little additional tempo via Enchantress redundancy. Running both just subtracts MD slots you could otherwise dedicate to Enchantment-based utility. A secondary option might be to run something to the effect of 2 GSZ for Enchantress 9/10 with 2 Enlightened Tutor or perhaps 3 Living Wish with 2 Enlightened Tutor. At 4/5 spots respectfully, a little bit better than 6 slots, and might give you some better synergy.

I also question Humility MD. What decks are you looking to hose which can't be answered more readily by other cards?

Forlorn Egoist

[anakyn]

@anakyn: Overall your build/SB are somewhat standard in terms of numbers and what they mean to accomplish. My only suggestions would be to decide between GSZ and Wish. Running both often times can weaken opening hands, and frankly they're somewhat contrary to run together.


I've been running them both for about 8 months, and both my results (in my local meta) and my feeling about them are good/great: I haven't experienced any "anti-synergy" between these 2 cards honestly, because their roles aren't overlapping.

GSZ is like having more virtual copies of Argothian, while Living wish plays a much wider role since it can grab not only Argothian, but also (and especially) answers / engines / win condition from the sideboard.
GSZ is good to have/play in the first stages of the match while Living wish is great at every stage: early if you need combo answers (Karakas / Canonist / Gaddock) or if you are lacking engines (Argothian) which is very rare since I'm running 10 virtual copies maindeck (3 Argothian + 3 GSZ + 4 Presence), mid game if you need acceleration (Sanctum), late game when you wanna just close the match (Emrakul).

I don't wanna cut neither GSZ nor Living wish because they both are necessary for the kind of strategy I wanna play.

With this configuration I'm playing 30 enchantments, which is enough to get the engine rolling.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

There are other choices where I'm a bit on the fence:

- Humility maindeck (which you already noted): its anti-synergy with Argothian sucks, but since one of my worst matchups so far has been Jund, I find Humility to be a necessity because I have no other answers to Shaman and Confidant. I've added 4 Leyline very recently, so maybe now the Jund matchup is better and I won't need the Humility anymore specifically for it.
The other reason I'm reluctant to cut Humility is the fact I've already cut Moat, and having a lone Sphere of safety as a 4CC+ answer to creatures seems a bit lackluster to me.
- playing the 20th land or not: most Enchantress list play 20 lands, my list plays 19. I rarely experienced mana issues, yet sometimes they happen. If I come to the conclusion to cut the Humility, I'll probably play the 20th land in its place.
- I'd like to have a 2nd Ground seal in the sideboard because it's a nice answer to difficult matchups like Reanimator and Jund (Shaman), but I really don't know what to cut for it.

I'm pretty happy about the rest of the deck.


Later on I'll leave some details about the meta where I played Enchantress in the last months: it's been very successful, but honestly the meta seems very favorable too because there are lots of fair decks and only one combo (Storm), so no S&T / Reanimator / Elves.

[btm10]

I'm less put off by the 19 lands than I am by the choice of nonbasics. I know some people have liked running Horizon Canopy, but in my experience it never pulled its weight as either a substitute for Savannah or a bonus cantrip. I think if you want built-in cantriping, Abundant Growth is the stronger option. And I get that Arbor is a 1-of and is Green Sun's-able, but when I tested it I felt like every time I had it in my opener it was a mulligan and that it undid a lot of what is good about Enchantress game 1, which is that it gives opponents dead draws like Bolt when you're under Leyline or Confinement. Turning their creature removal into land destruction just isn't good, and also gives you a land that's unenchantable even when you'd be willing to do it to Savannah or Sanctum.

[Mortox]

Sphere is great when you are winning. It's pretty horrible when they just need to push one equipped guy through for lethal, same with Elephant Grass - which has the awful upkeep cost.

He didn't say Sphere was always great, just that it's better to run Sphere/Grass over Moat, and I agree with that. Moat is alright but the stuff it stops isn't really the stuff I'm most concerned about. TNN beats or the like isn't generally what kills Enchantress since that clock is not extreme, you have multiple turns to dig out and get the engine roaring. Stuff like Marit Lage, Griselbrand, Emrakul, etc. is what's going to end the game before Enchantress can really get going. Elephant Grass is great for buying a little time in those cases (especially vs Lage and Grisel due to the black clause) until you can get a Solitary lock on or find a Sphere. There have been more games than I can count where I was able to chain Elephant Grass into Elephant Grass paying the upkeep as long as I could on each one until I could find a more permanent answer.

[anakyn]

I'm less put off by the 19 lands than I am by the choice of nonbasics. I know some people have liked running Horizon Canopy, but in my experience it never pulled its weight as either a substitute for Savannah or a bonus cantrip. I think if you want built-in cantriping, Abundant Growth is the stronger option. And I get that Arbor is a 1-of and is Green Sun's-able, but when I tested it I felt like every time I had it in my opener it was a mulligan and that it undid a lot of what is good about Enchantress game 1, which is that it gives opponents dead draws like Bolt when you're under Leyline or Confinement. Turning their creature removal into land destruction just isn't good, and also gives you a land that's unenchantable even when you'd be willing to do it to Savannah or Sanctum.


Good points overall.
It is true that Enchantress wanna play basics because a Growth effect on a non-basic just loses to Wasteland.

While I could, and I probably will, cut the Canopy (we already draw tons of cards), I don't think I'll cut Dryad because fetching her on the first turn with GSZ is another way to have (potentially) 3 mana on second turn, which is very valuable to me.

I guess that Canopy will become a Forest.

[sun tzu]

can someone answer some questions for me?

i seem to only have a basic understanding of this deck. i've tested and tested (and probably need even more testing) and tried different versions of the deck, and i cant seem to figure out which build / win condition is the most consistent with the strongest / hardest to disrupt 'foundation'.

the UG words of wind build seems interesting, and is certainly very fun when you are 'going off' with cloud of faeries, but it feels weak to disruption, and i feel like maybe if you have the time to 'go off' and essentially make it into magical christmas land untapping lands and playing whatever you want, is it really necessary? is that way actually better than just trying to resolve a rest in peace, then try to resolve a helm of domination with 1 mana ready to 1 shot their library?

is words of war a thing at all? i feel like its hard to set up but i must confess i only have very limited time trying to test this card and might not have set up my build right to sustain it, or make it useful.

are there any other 'good' win conditions that fit into our 'engine' at all? so far i know of the following win conditions, none of which really -effectively- help our engine out.:
-words of wind
-words of war
-sigil of empty throne
-parallax wave / opalescence combo
-rest in peace / helm
-emrakul

words of wind KIND of helps our 'engine' but only if you have a resolved cloud of faeries, and enough enchanted lands to 'go off'. more of a late game card.

i have a feeling that green sun's zenith / living wish could fit this 'win condition' spot that also help with resiliency, but it does suck that it takes non-enchantment slots when i want to usually build with no less than 29 enchantments.

do you guys know of any other win conditions or atypical card choices that seem like they could have potential / room to explore?

[ForlornEgoist]

can someone answer some questions for me?

i seem to only have a basic understanding of this deck. i've tested and tested (and probably need even more testing) and tried different versions of the deck, and i cant seem to figure out which build / win condition is the most consistent with the strongest / hardest to disrupt 'foundation'.

the UG words of wind build seems interesting, and is certainly very fun when you are 'going off' with cloud of faeries, but it feels weak to disruption, and i feel like maybe if you have the time to 'go off' and essentially make it into magical christmas land untapping lands and playing whatever you want, is it really necessary? is that way actually better than just trying to resolve a rest in peace, then try to resolve a helm of domination with 1 mana ready to 1 shot their library?

is words of war a thing at all? i feel like its hard to set up but i must confess i only have very limited time trying to test this card and might not have set up my build right to sustain it, or make it useful.

are there any other 'good' win conditions that fit into our 'engine' at all? so far i know of the following win conditions, none of which really -effectively- help our engine out.:
-words of wind
-words of war
-sigil of empty throne
-parallax wave / opalescence combo
-rest in peace / helm
-emrakul

words of wind KIND of helps our 'engine' but only if you have a resolved cloud of faeries, and enough enchanted lands to 'go off'. more of a late game card.

i have a feeling that green sun's zenith / living wish could fit this 'win condition' spot that also help with resiliency, but it does suck that it takes non-enchantment slots when i want to usually build with no less than 29 enchantments.

do you guys know of any other win conditions or atypical card choices that seem like they could have potential / room to explore?

Well, generally speaking there are a multitude of reasons to select either build, but in my playtesting I've found that you make the decision based not only on play preference but also meta. The GWr shell tends to be more explosive in terms of "comboing," off. In a meta filled with aggro or non-interactive decks, the GWr shell shines as it only requires you play 1 or 2 defensive enchantments before comboing off. The weakness of this build, however, is that even post-SB its very susceptible to Combo/Control (counter/discard) and requires utility via Tutors as well as intelligent SBing (given that we have lots of different answers to something but they all have their limitations).

Contrariwise, the benefit of the UG shell is it can reliably contend (at least, as far as Enchantress builds are concerned) with control-based decks. Note the UG Thread: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25035-U-G-Enchantress.
UG builds tend to have much better ways at interacting with Control decks. Seal of Removal is, in my opinion, a good standard that helps to answer early aggro or "Cheat," creatures via S&T/SA/Reanimator. 4 GSZ as well as Eternal Witness helps to fight through counters and insure you're not just blindly using tutor effects in the hopes of wearing down their counters. Carpet of Flowers for extra mana, and the combo engine Cloud of Faeries + Words of Wind can sometimes be used for a lock that can assure a win more easily than those in GWr shells. Not to mention you can use fun cards like In the Eye of Chaos provided you can afford them.

Both builds have their benefits, as noted, and really just boil down to what your preference is as well as your meta. Control decks are quite popular right now and as such I believe the UG build is worth considering, even if the GWr shell is still more prevalent.

As far as win cons the thing about Enchantress is its always kind of a "pick you win con," deck since you can really just decide how you want to win once you establish a board presence. Sigil of the Empty Throne tends to be standard given its utility not only as an ending win con but as an early answer to enemy creatures. Let's face it, getting a free 4/4 flying token just for playing an enchantment is valuable at any state of the game. Beyond this there are numerous options available as you noted. Heck, you could even be silly and run that Enchantment who's name I've forgotten that costs G and reads something to the effect of X: Put X counters on this. Win the game when you have 100 counters (more effective in UG than GWr.

Words of War generally speaking is simply good in that it can prevent you from decking yourself. A rare happenstance, but can be relevant. An early WoW can also help you snipe problem threats if you feel as though you're having difficulty setting up your combo (Confidant, Delver, etc.). It can also be reliably sustained for dmg with 2 Enchantress effects.

Realistically speaking, most of our wincons require you have established some sort of board presence which requires fighting through the plethora of hate/control in the present meta. What you need to ask yourself first and foremost is which build will permit me to sustain and survive AGAINST the meta.

Forlorn Egoist

[GoldenCid]

can someone answer some questions for me?

i seem to only have a basic understanding of this deck. i've tested and tested (and probably need even more testing) and tried different versions of the deck, and i cant seem to figure out which build / win condition is the most consistent with the strongest / hardest to disrupt 'foundation'.

the UG words of wind build seems interesting, and is certainly very fun when you are 'going off' with cloud of faeries, but it feels weak to disruption, and i feel like maybe if you have the time to 'go off' and essentially make it into magical christmas land untapping lands and playing whatever you want, is it really necessary? is that way actually better than just trying to resolve a rest in peace, then try to resolve a helm of domination with 1 mana ready to 1 shot their library?

is words of war a thing at all? i feel like its hard to set up but i must confess i only have very limited time trying to test this card and might not have set up my build right to sustain it, or make it useful.

are there any other 'good' win conditions that fit into our 'engine' at all? so far i know of the following win conditions, none of which really -effectively- help our engine out.:
-words of wind
-words of war
-sigil of empty throne
-parallax wave / opalescence combo
-rest in peace / helm
-emrakul

words of wind KIND of helps our 'engine' but only if you have a resolved cloud of faeries, and enough enchanted lands to 'go off'. more of a late game card.

i have a feeling that green sun's zenith / living wish could fit this 'win condition' spot that also help with resiliency, but it does suck that it takes non-enchantment slots when i want to usually build with no less than 29 enchantments.

do you guys know of any other win conditions or atypical card choices that seem like they could have potential / room to explore?

Before giving you my point of you, this are some "atypical" win conditions:

Sacred mesa
Luminarch ascension
Primal order
Helix pinnacle

In my last tournament (113 man) i pushed words of wind as "3rd win cond" / solution spell and except for 1 game it sucked all day long. My conclusion was it need a "matrix" that fits with it as occurs with UG.

Enchantress, any version, is a difficult deck. I bases on taking the control of the whole table with chained enchantments. when i started with the deck i went 0-4 / 1-3 every tournament until i won a small one, got 2nd place in a middle one and had always positive record in huge tournaments.

If you ask me the best win cond i ever used are:

Helm / rip
Throne
Words of war

The first one explains it self.

Throne is a bomb. I cant be needleable. Triggers when you cast an enchantment and defecates 4/4 flying guys. It's very good. If you want, its drawback is its mana cost, sometimes hard to cast and generate angels if you dont control sanctum.

Words of war is a very versatile enchantment. Yuo can rape small guys at the same time you can kill walkers. It's very effective and prevents you from milling when the game goes long. It has a very rasonable cost and a heavy effect.

Side note: if you are pushing enchantress make sure that you can beat walkers with you deck. liliana is annoying if you cant kill her fast.
In my last tournament, if this helps, i took GWu enchantress because i had a solid answer to tnn who i expected a lot. I could drop Energy field + rip and just stall at the same time that i had access to detention sphere to eat 2 goyfs or even goblin tokens (wasnt that relevant). The deck worked out quite well except for some misplays i made which punished me so hard.
Moreover i had the fantasy of running black enchantress but due i had no time to test it i gave up.

Finally im not sure how parallax wave / opalescence combo works but i dislike non-flyning creatures in this deck other than argothian off course. :P

GC.

[sun tzu]

Before giving you my point of you, this are some "atypical" win conditions:

Sacred mesa
Luminarch ascension
Primal order
Helix pinnacle

In my last tournament (113 man) i pushed words of wind as "3rd win cond" / solution spell and except for 1 game it sucked all day long. My conclusion was it need a "matrix" that fits with it as occurs with UG.

Enchantress, any version, is a difficult deck. I bases on taking the control of the whole table with chained enchantments. when i started with the deck i went 0-4 / 1-3 every tournament until i won a small one, got 2nd place in a middle one and had always positive record in huge tournaments.

If you ask me the best win cond i ever used are:

Helm / rip
Throne
Words of war

The first one explains it self.

Throne is a bomb. I cant be needleable. Triggers when you cast an enchantment and defecates 4/4 flying guys. It's very good. If you want, its drawback is its mana cost, sometimes hard to cast and generate angels if you dont control sanctum.

Words of war is a very versatile enchantment. Yuo can rape small guys at the same time you can kill walkers. It's very effective and prevents you from milling when the game goes long. It has a very rasonable cost and a heavy effect.

Side note: if you are pushing enchantress make sure that you can beat walkers with you deck. liliana is annoying if you cant kill her fast.
In my last tournament, if this helps, i took GWu enchantress because i had a solid answer to tnn who i expected a lot. I could drop Energy field + rip and just stall at the same time that i had access to detention sphere to eat 2 goyfs or even goblin tokens (wasnt that relevant). The deck worked out quite well except for some misplays i made which punished me so hard.
Moreover i had the fantasy of running black enchantress but due i had no time to test it i gave up.

Finally im not sure how parallax wave / opalescence combo works but i dislike non-flyning creatures in this deck other than argothian off course. :P

GC.
thanks for the input man :D

with parallax wave + opalescence in play, you can permanently exile all of their creatures. basically you target 4 of their guys with wave, then use wave to target itself last. wave leaves play, then returns all 'creatures' to play that were exiled before it left play. since its the first creature exiled its the only one that comes back. then the 4 exile triggers happen in order, but they are un-linked with the freshly entered play parallax wave, so these creatures just get perma exiled. wave also enters with another 5 counters. both attack for 4 each so it puts a decently fast clock once enabled, assuming you can find a way to attack before you need parallax wave to leave play then return to play (no haste).

there are also interesting interactions you can do to save your own enchantments that are now creatures, too. its a fun combo but im fairly certain its not fast or competitive enough. parallax wave is a pretty decent card for dealing with creatures, but it requires a heavy investment, even if that investment is 'only' 4 mana. its still a lot, and both cards dont really do anything versus faster decks.

[ForlornEgoist]

I still think Hunting Grounds would be tots adorbs in a build running Living Wish. :laugh: I also know that Defense of the Heart + Forbidden Orchard was discussed for a brief period.

Forlorn Egoist

[The_Dingo]

I'm less put off by the 19 lands than I am by the choice of nonbasics. I know some people have liked running Horizon Canopy, but in my experience it never pulled its weight as either a substitute for Savannah or a bonus cantrip. I think if you want built-in cantriping, Abundant Growth is the stronger option. And I get that Arbor is a 1-of and is Green Sun's-able, but when I tested it I felt like every time I had it in my opener it was a mulligan and that it undid a lot of what is good about Enchantress game 1, which is that it gives opponents dead draws like Bolt when you're under Leyline or Confinement. Turning their creature removal into land destruction just isn't good, and also gives you a land that's unenchantable even when you'd be willing to do it to Savannah or Sanctum.

I actually choose to play dryad arbor because you can fetch it up with windswept to dodge an edict effect killing an Argothian. I've been more than happy to trade a land drop for my enchantress, and I've actually been able to bait opponents into -2ing Lily when she only had 2 counters because they thought they could finish off my last enchantress.

[honz]

I have always liked opalescence as an alternate win con. If you are in a winning position, then you have enough permanents on the board to win most games with one huge swing. It also has the ability to swing games in your favor by itself, giving you a little horde to defend yourself until you can establish yourself. If you dont have a sterling grove, or fear some form of creature removal, simply dont play it when you have it.

I haven't seen anyone else run it though, so perhaps i'm missing something.

[GoldenCid]

After facing lots of BGx decks with discard and beating more u deck than being beaten by them i thoguht in Spiritual focus to relief the effect of discard. I know we have leyline but i think that except it's in our openig hand maybe never will see play. Has anybody tested it? or had the same thought than me?

[Freggle]

After facing lots of BGx decks with discard and beating more u deck than being beaten by them i thoguht in Spiritual focus to relief the effect of discard. I know we have leyline but i think that except it's in our openig hand maybe never will see play. Has anybody tested it? or had the same thought than me?

BGx decks can be difficult, but are certainly beatable. When playing in a BGx meta I look at a few things:

- Is the deck I'm running redundant?
- Running the max 12 Enchantress's will only help (4 argoth, 4 Pres, 4 Green Suns) Sterling / wish is not a replacement to keep the tempo on high.

- Do I have deck manipulation? (they can't make you discard what is not in your hand)
- Mirri's guile
- Sylvan Library

- Is there a plan b I can build into the 75 to catch players off guard?

...after those I look at target hate cards, and then I thin you want Compost to use in other MU's but maybe not.


I have always liked opalescence as an alternate win con. If you are in a winning position, then you have enough permanents on the board to win most games with one huge swing. It also has the ability to swing games in your favor by itself, giving you a little horde to defend yourself until you can establish yourself. If you dont have a sterling grove, or fear some form of creature removal, simply dont play it when you have it.

I haven't seen anyone else run it though, so perhaps i'm missing something.

Frankly, I never tried it but I was always concerned about removal, and the fact that we tend to ignore the board (Confinement) so I was worried that the board would be clogged and to break the stalemate I was worried I have to attack with enchantments I didn't want to loose. Is this unwarranted?


I still think Hunting Grounds would be tots adorbs in a build running Living Wish. :laugh: I also know that Defense of the Heart + Forbidden Orchard was discussed for a brief period.

Forlorn Egoist

I played Orchard / Defense for a bit. I tabled it after a bad tournament where I played a lot of Black decks and got murdered with targeted discard. Playing this combo is powerful, but is weak to those affects as you need something to not die to the free creatures you are giving out. In addition, you can get stuck with hands of fatties and no way to cast / use them. There can be a build there, but its more conditional than others and therefore less sound no matter how fun it was, or how bad I wanted it to work.

@ Sun Tsu & wins. As I read your post you are not so much concerned about actual wins as you are with learning a deck and play style of each version, and there they are all vastly different IMHO.

GWr - This is for the prison lover. A player who likes to lock others out of their plan. This player knows the meta, and tunes their lists to exploit whatever hole they see in that meta through bullet enchantments, and from there win at will with an enchantment win of their choosing.

GWr is susceptible to guessing the meta wrong (but it runs good stuff even when you do confinement / sterling), awkward draws like sterling hands but good mu enchantments but no enchantress effect. ... In short you have to study your meta you have to know your list you have to know what matters and you have to execute.

UG - Is for a combo player that likes complex lines and math. This is designed for the type of player that wants to focus on comboing off. They still know a lot about the meta, but largely they are not tuning their list to react to it unless it interacts negatively with their combo. This player evaluates the hands on the speed to combo. This deck is about racing not locking. ...well racing to the lock, and winning through attacking. In doing so the lists focus on redundancy and not bullets, and so are "easier" to learn, but still requires a lot of practice, and frankly perhaps a mentor because some of the interactions are not complex but are not especially easy to know what is proper given your opponent.

UG is susceptible to unkown play errors. Typical enchantress hate (basic land hate, -1/-1 effects) fast sleigh, and combo builds & needle effects.

GW Helm - Is more for the combo prison player. The deck is designed to be resilient / redundant and draw cards. Unlike GWr it focuses on the Enchantress all-stars (confinement / Sanctum...) and maxes out those QTYs to just stick it and lock, but it's not looking to lock but for more than 1-2 turns. It also varies from GU's play style in that GW largely does not care about complex math (maybe mana & draws) but it does a 2 card combo. In that respect it is more of your Show and Tell variety of combo.

I can speak to other builds if there is interest, but I'm too tired to blindly write it out now.

[lordofthepit]

Freggle, I liked your SCG list overall (although I made some changes), but one thing stuck out to me: no Sterling Groves.

Can you explain this logic to me? I'm new to Enchantress so I'm not familiar with the intricacies of the different versions.

[Potawo]

Freggle, I liked your SCG list overall (although I made some changes), but one thing stuck out to me: no Sterling Groves.

Can you explain this logic to me? I'm new to Enchantress so I'm not familiar with the intricacies of the different versions.

this question is often asked. for a short answer, Groves are mainly used for its shroud effect. It's good if you want to play a "prison" version of enchantress and if you want to maintain a solitary confinement lock for many turns. But if you play a more "combo" oriented version of the deck, grooves are a big lose of tempo. Freegles could probably give you a better and more detailed answer because i never test the deck without at least 3 grooves!

I have an other question for enchantress players. I'll go to the GP PARIS this WE and i don't know if Spirit of the Labyrinth from Born of the gods will be played... Do you think it's necessary to provide a solution MD for this card? if so do you have a good idea? (i play a RIP/helm version with only 1 oblivion Ring MD to deal with this card...)

[Blastoderm]

this question is often asked. for a short answer, Groves are mainly used for its shroud effect. It's good if you want to play a "prison" version of enchantress and if you want to maintain a solitary confinement lock for many turns. But if you play a more "combo" oriented version of the deck, grooves are a big lose of tempo. Freegles could probably give you a better and more detailed answer because i never test the deck without at least 3 grooves!

I have an other question for enchantress players. I'll go to the GP PARIS this WE and i don't know if Spirit of the Labyrinth from Born of the gods will be played... Do you think it's necessary to provide a solution MD for this card? if so do you have a good idea? (i play a RIP/helm version with only 1 oblivion Ring MD to deal with this card...)

Maybe include 1 enlightened tutor. Grab sphere of resistence/humility/combo piece. Oblivion Ring is very good, I was testing 2 MD because planeswalkers were annoying too.

[Freggle]

Freggle, I liked your SCG list overall (although I made some changes), but one thing stuck out to me: no Sterling Groves.

Can you explain this logic to me? I'm new to Enchantress so I'm not familiar with the intricacies of the different versions.


Freggle, I liked your SCG list overall (although I made some changes), but one thing stuck out to me: no Sterling Groves.

Can you explain this logic to me? I'm new to Enchantress so I'm not familiar with the intricacies of the different versions.

Thank you. The list isn’t meant to be a work of art with a cemented 75 (although I would like it to get there.) It is more a template of what you need to make the deck work, so making changes is a part of the process.
On the topic of No Groves: Short answer: it is largely a product of my building / testing style.

Long answer: The deck was built with a philosophy that if you draw enough cards you will win, so all the choices were made to draw the most cards possible. This means for Enchantress the goal was to push the decks curve as low as possible so you can cast more per turn. In doing so it makes Confinement lock or RIP Helm easier to assemble. In essence the deck may close the game with RIP / Helm or Emrakul, but it wins by drawing cards. Therefore I build the list with this thesis, and adjusted from there. I tested Groves off and on and found that in high number it put too much pressure on the mana to hit white early. Typically when I play this deck all the Utopia Sprawls name Green This allows us to chain sprawls and growths for net 0 mana if you have a land untapped., and then drop a Sanctum to drop RIP / Helm, Confienment, or Emrakul (all white). When you add Groves you disrupt that flow, and you stall turns that could have dug far further, and possibly combed.

Then there is also the fact that many times I could just cast 2-3 RIP’s before Helm or Emrakul or 2-3 Confinements to buy that turn I needed to untap draw the deck and win. So in essence the lack of groves is a nod to tempo, and from the fact that I wanted to prove or disprove the thesis before I went to a tried and true.

Since then I have tested a number of other things and the list I run currently has 1 main, and 1 in the board. (I’m still not sure if it is right.) I can post the current list later if there is interest.

@Enlightened Tutor is it card disadvantage and therefore didn’t make the cut as well. It was tested, but exposed the deck too much to pure control / permission. It is better off as an enchantment hate piece or more stall so that you draw more even if it is countered and bury them with advantage.

[Potawo]

T I can post the current list later if there is interest.


I am interested to have a look at your list! :tongue:

[GoldenCid]

BGx decks can be difficult, but are certainly beatable. When playing in a BGx meta I look at a few things:

- Is the deck I'm running redundant?
- Running the max 12 Enchantress's will only help (4 argoth, 4 Pres, 4 Green Suns) Sterling / wish is not a replacement to keep the tempo on high.

- Do I have deck manipulation? (they can't make you discard what is not in your hand)
- Mirri's guile
- Sylvan Library

- Is there a plan b I can build into the 75 to catch players off guard?

...after those I look at target hate cards, and then I thin you want Compost to use in other MU's but maybe not.


Your line of reasoning is correct. I'm not sold to GSZ but this may be a subject of play style. My core with tutor and grove engine worked very well to me. I'm tempted to cut E. tutor and add GSZ but i'm afraid that i can loose a fast answer to oponent pression. I.e an early liliana.
I'm completely agree with deck manipulation. I've been run 3 mirr's guile since acouple of month ago and i liked. It also helps me to keep good hands without enchantress effects.
And for compost, it's a good option but i think spiritual focus is a lite bit better. ;)

On grove topic: i love them maily for its shroud. this is very important in mu where abrupt decay is waitning for its entrance. I use the tutor effect to fetch a win cond or a lock piece, i dont hurry to break it as soon as posible.

[Freggle]

I am interested to have a look at your list! :tongue:

Main:
4 Argothian enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence

4 Solitary Confinement
3 Mirri's Guile
2 Helm of Obedience
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
3 Rest in Peace
3 Elephant Grass
1 Sterling Grove
1 Oblivion Ring

4 Green Sun's Zenith

4 Serra's Sanctum
1 Karakas
1 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
11 Forest

Side:
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Oblivion Ring
1 Sterling Grove
3 Stony Silence
3 Carpet of Flowers
4 Leyline of Sanctity

Variance from the SCG list:

Main:
-2 Gitaxian Probe
-2 Abundant Growth

+1 Solitary Confinement
+1 Sterling Grove
+1 Seal of Primordium
+1 Forest

Side:
-2 Surgical Extraction

+1 Sterling Grove
+1 Oblivion Ring

I play test almost daily on line in tournament practice on MTGO and I've been on this for a little over a week. IT has performed very well. Somewhere on the order of 15-5 (I can see if I can look this up in my history if people want the actual stat) This list is still in flux, but I do like it.

Main question: Why the additional forest? The main way this deck looses is to itself. Games are very much decided in the first few turns. Missing a land drop or having to mulligan for green mana is too costly. This is where probe helped make sure you hit the land because it wasn't a true card slot. Without Probe The additional land seems the best. I decided to try this after tesing Crop Rotation in the abundant growth slots for a week or so. I like the tricks I could do with it, but it was a non-enchantment that was disadvantage. It was largely a win more. Since I was testing a non-enchantment in that slot I figured why not try a land to reduce mulligans and ever so slightly improve the Death and Taxes MU. Overall I have been pleased.

[lordofthepit]

Main:
4 Argothian enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence

4 Solitary Confinement
3 Mirri's Guile
2 Helm of Obedience
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
3 Rest in Peace
3 Elephant Grass
1 Sterling Grove
1 Oblivion Ring

4 Green Sun's Zenith

4 Serra's Sanctum
1 Karakas
1 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
11 Forest

Side:
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Oblivion Ring
1 Sterling Grove
3 Stony Silence
3 Carpet of Flowers
4 Leyline of Sanctity

Variance from the SCG list:

Main:
-2 Gitaxian Probe
-2 Abundant Growth

+1 Solitary Confinement
+1 Sterling Grove
+1 Seal of Primordium
+1 Forest

Side:
-2 Surgical Extraction

+1 Sterling Grove
+1 Oblivion Ring

I play test almost daily on line in tournament practice on MTGO and I've been on this for a little over a week. IT has performed very well. Somewhere on the order of 15-5 (I can see if I can look this up in my history if people want the actual stat) This list is still in flux, but I do like it.

Main question: Why the additional forest? The main way this deck looses is to itself. Games are very much decided in the first few turns. Missing a land drop or having to mulligan for green mana is too costly. This is where probe helped make sure you hit the land because it wasn't a true card slot. Without Probe The additional land seems the best. I decided to try this after tesing Crop Rotation in the abundant growth slots for a week or so. I like the tricks I could do with it, but it was a non-enchantment that was disadvantage. It was largely a win more. Since I was testing a non-enchantment in that slot I figured why not try a land to reduce mulligans and ever so slightly improve the Death and Taxes MU. Overall I have been pleased.

Thanks for the excellent explanation!

[Kulta]

Main:
I play test almost daily on line in tournament practice on MTGO and I've been on this for a little over a week. IT has performed very well. Somewhere on the order of 15-5 (I can see if I can look this up in my history if people want the actual stat) This list is still in flux, but I do like it.

Main question: Why the additional forest? The main way this deck looses is to itself. Games are very much decided in the first few turns. Missing a land drop or having to mulligan for green mana is too costly. This is where probe helped make sure you hit the land because it wasn't a true card slot. Without Probe The additional land seems the best. I decided to try this after tesing Crop Rotation in the abundant growth slots for a week or so. I like the tricks I could do with it, but it was a non-enchantment that was disadvantage. It was largely a win more. Since I was testing a non-enchantment in that slot I figured why not try a land to reduce mulligans and ever so slightly improve the Death and Taxes MU. Overall I have been pleased.

If you test daily it would be awesome if you started streaming on twitch. It's always so much fun seeing someone skilled at a certain deck pilot it, and regular streamers get good views :wink:.

[Freggle]

If you test daily it would be awesome if you started streaming on twitch. It's always so much fun seeing someone skilled at a certain deck pilot it, and regular streamers get good views :wink:.

You know it's funny you mention this. I have thought about it quite a bit, but most of the time I sit down to do this I'd just rather play Magic. I'll look into it more seriously if you really are curious because I think I can learn a lot from the process as well. It's really going to cut down on my Magic in the hot tub or bed time though.

It should also be mentioned that right after posting about how I have had success with the deck I got schooled 2 games in a row by jund decks running 2+ copies of Golgari Charm and landing T2 Lilli's. Have their lists changed that much recently? I went 2-3 for the night beating Imperial Painter, Deadguy Ale, and ANT.

[jmeka]

You know it's funny you mention this. I have thought about it quite a bit, but most of the time I sit down to do this I'd just rather play Magic. I'll look into it more seriously if you really are curious because I think I can learn a lot from the process as well. It's really going to cut down on my Magic in the hot tub or bed time though.

It should also be mentioned that right after posting about how I have had success with the deck I got schooled 2 games in a row by jund decks running 2+ copies of Golgari Charm and landing T2 Lilli's. Have their lists changed that much recently? I went 2-3 for the night beating Imperial Painter, Deadguy Ale, and ANT.

If you stream, I'll just come over and commentate and you play, lol. We have to start becoming famous.

[sun tzu]

BGx decks can be difficult, but are certainly beatable. When playing in a BGx meta I look at a few things:

- Is the deck I'm running redundant?
- Running the max 12 Enchantress's will only help (4 argoth, 4 Pres, 4 Green Suns) Sterling / wish is not a replacement to keep the tempo on high.

- Do I have deck manipulation? (they can't make you discard what is not in your hand)
- Mirri's guile
- Sylvan Library

- Is there a plan b I can build into the 75 to catch players off guard?

...after those I look at target hate cards, and then I thin you want Compost to use in other MU's but maybe not.



Frankly, I never tried it but I was always concerned about removal, and the fact that we tend to ignore the board (Confinement) so I was worried that the board would be clogged and to break the stalemate I was worried I have to attack with enchantments I didn't want to loose. Is this unwarranted?



I played Orchard / Defense for a bit. I tabled it after a bad tournament where I played a lot of Black decks and got murdered with targeted discard. Playing this combo is powerful, but is weak to those affects as you need something to not die to the free creatures you are giving out. In addition, you can get stuck with hands of fatties and no way to cast / use them. There can be a build there, but its more conditional than others and therefore less sound no matter how fun it was, or how bad I wanted it to work.

@ Sun Tsu & wins. As I read your post you are not so much concerned about actual wins as you are with learning a deck and play style of each version, and there they are all vastly different IMHO.

GWr - This is for the prison lover. A player who likes to lock others out of their plan. This player knows the meta, and tunes their lists to exploit whatever hole they see in that meta through bullet enchantments, and from there win at will with an enchantment win of their choosing.

GWr is susceptible to guessing the meta wrong (but it runs good stuff even when you do confinement / sterling), awkward draws like sterling hands but good mu enchantments but no enchantress effect. ... In short you have to study your meta you have to know your list you have to know what matters and you have to execute.

UG - Is for a combo player that likes complex lines and math. This is designed for the type of player that wants to focus on comboing off. They still know a lot about the meta, but largely they are not tuning their list to react to it unless it interacts negatively with their combo. This player evaluates the hands on the speed to combo. This deck is about racing not locking. ...well racing to the lock, and winning through attacking. In doing so the lists focus on redundancy and not bullets, and so are "easier" to learn, but still requires a lot of practice, and frankly perhaps a mentor because some of the interactions are not complex but are not especially easy to know what is proper given your opponent.

UG is susceptible to unkown play errors. Typical enchantress hate (basic land hate, -1/-1 effects) fast sleigh, and combo builds & needle effects.

GW Helm - Is more for the combo prison player. The deck is designed to be resilient / redundant and draw cards. Unlike GWr it focuses on the Enchantress all-stars (confinement / Sanctum...) and maxes out those QTYs to just stick it and lock, but it's not looking to lock but for more than 1-2 turns. It also varies from GU's play style in that GW largely does not care about complex math (maybe mana & draws) but it does a 2 card combo. In that respect it is more of your Show and Tell variety of combo.

I can speak to other builds if there is interest, but I'm too tired to blindly write it out now.

im certainly interested in your insight into other builds if you have the time. you dont have to go super in depth, however. win condition and main strategies of the deck would be enough, or just a brief overview of how it works. basically what you did with your post. i love exploring all types of options and new ideas are always appreciated :D

on the subject of mirri's guile, i've really liked this card in all of my different builds. playing this on turn 1 is massively good and helps the entire game (or till it is destroyed or dealt with). yea it doesnt really 'do anything' to effect the opponents board state, but a lot of builds that ive seen seem to try to be able to ignore what the opponent is doing or make what they are doing not matter through redundancy. when you can look at the top 3 every turn starting with your turn 2, the things you need to be able to meet the 2 game requirements most decks function on:

1.) what do i need to do to stay alive another turn.
2.) what do i need to do to either 'set up' or 'combo out' or effectively 'seal the game' even if its down the line a bit a few turns later.

mirri's guile helps in both areas a great deal. i really cant say enough about how awesome this card is, especially if you are running shuffle effects (like GSZ and fetch lands). with mirri's guile, green sun zenith, and fetch lands together, the deck provides a good foundation for early turns and also offer redundancy to the areas our deck seems to struggle with if our opponents try to interact where it counts.

[Mortox]

mirri's guile helps in both areas a great deal. i really cant say enough about how awesome this card is, especially if you are running shuffle effects (like GSZ and fetch lands). with mirri's guile, green sun zenith, and fetch lands together, the deck provides a good foundation for early turns and also offer redundancy to the areas our deck seems to struggle with if our opponents try to interact where it counts.

After trying to drop my number of GSZ's down to 2 I certainly noticed the lessened shuffle effects. Only thing worse than getting Brainstorm locked whilst playing a blue deck is getting Mirri's Guile locked whilst playing Enchantress :P

I wish there were a few more synergistic ways to give the deck shuffles without running more fetches. I suppose 1-2 Sterlings do this if you are using them as a tutor rather than a shroud.

@Freggle, digging your most recent list although I'm a bit surprised you finally dropped the Abundant Growths, you were such a big advocate for them through the last months (years?) and 4x Solitary seems like overkill although I assume you run them out and let them fall on upkeep to buy additional turns if necessary, would make sense with an active Mirri's.

[btm10]

I run Enlightened Tutor and Grove, which seems to give plenty of shuffles. However, I'm currently on GW Enchantress withi] RIP/Helm and Replenish and but [i]without GSZ, so the playstyle is very different.

[sun tzu]

i was wondering if anyone had some good ideas of cards to use against decks with several counterspells. if i dipped into another color i could find more answers, im sure, but i kinda wanna stick with UG words of wind with a small black splash for sideboard dread of night.

some ideas i came up with are:

pact of negation
autumn's veil
memory's journey (also a shuffle effect to 'combo' with mirri's guile)
gutteral response
quest for ancient secrets
vexxing shusher
xantid swarm

of these, i'm currently thinking memory's journey has the most potential because of its flashback, but if you are running GSZ shusher or xantid swarm could also be good, especially after sideboard.

i'll let you guys know if the 1 of memory's journey seems good. if anyone is interested in my decklist just ask and i'll post my current one.

[GoldenCid]

The best cards i've ever seen against u decks are:

City of solitude
Carpet of flowers
Dovescape
In the eye of chaos

GC

[LOLaSageOwl]

Hey everyone, new here. Been playing GW Enchantress to good success for about 6 months now, I actually have not had more success with any other Legacy decks I've tried. I am excited to join the discussion! Also, how do I tag cards in my post?


The best cards i've ever seen against u decks are:

City of solitude
Carpet of flowers
Dovescape
In the eye of chaos

GC


What do you mean by U? There are different strokes of Blue decks in this format. Delver, Show and Tell, Counterbalance, Stoneblade. The only characteristic these decks share is that they run Islands, Brainstorm and Force of Will.

City of Solitude is worse than Choke. Choke is a threat, City is not.

Carpet of Flowers is really nice, especially against Delver decks.

Dovescape?? Please explain the applications of this card, I am intrigued. The effect is obviously powerful but 6 mana is a lot. It would be really sweet technology against Omni-Tell though, which is quite the unwinnable matchup, I think it might be the worst MU for this deck (at least for GW not sure about other versions). Even there, they cast Show and Tell putting Omni into play (you presumable put Dovescape into play) then cast Enter the Infinite and make 12 birds and kill you with them. Still, an interesting card maybe?

In the Eye of Chaos is a really powerful card but I have never seen it in action. It is theoretically good against Storm but Dark Ritual still makes a mana and it doesn't hinder their LEDs. It might be really nice against Force of Will decks b/c it also makes their Brainstorms cost 1U etc.

[Freggle]

If you stream, I'll just come over and commentate and you play, lol. We have to start becoming famous. I don't need to be famous, but lets shoot for a launch this week sometime. FYI as a gimmick I will have any guest spots who stop by the thread drink one of my homebrews (varying from good to horrible) I peg you for the infamous "Orange Cider" or 6 month fermented orange juice. Working title of the stream it the "Forbidden Grove" .. a play on forbidden Orchard, and a nod to the Orange Groves of Central FL a thing you know I have a soft spot for.


im certainly interested in your insight into other builds if you have the time. you dont have to go super in depth, however. win condition and main strategies of the deck would be enough, or just a brief overview of how it works. basically what you did with your post. i love exploring all types of options and new ideas are always appreciated :D

I will try and do that soonish, but I'd like to fire-up the stream and write a decent primer for the developmental thread before flying to mardi gras in a week and a half.


@Freggle, digging your most recent list although I'm a bit surprised you finally dropped the Abundant Growths, you were such a big advocate for them through the last months (years?) and 4x Solitary seems like overkill although I assume you run them out and let them fall on upkeep to buy additional turns if necessary, would make sense with an active Mirri's.

Thanks, I'm still leery on this, but I'm interested in the best version that can be made. ...so I have to try it without them.

Solitary is probably the best card in the deck. And 4 is not too many since you first will be decayed or dealt with in some manner. Plus you wan tit fast for combo and hyper aggressive decks, when sterling is far too slow.


i was wondering if anyone had some good ideas of cards to use against decks with several counterspells.

People hit the heavy hitters, but it really comes down to which version you are playing. If you are to be the aggressor Carpet of Flowers is likely the best call. If you are the control City of Solitude is likely the better call.

[btm10]

Sort of backing away from the more detailed discussions for a moment - can we try to define the core of the deck vs. the flex slots/playstyle choices? I don't expect to come up with a 58 card core like RUG Delver, but I think moving beyond the "4 Presence, 4 Argothian, everything else up to the pilot" view that's dominated discussion on Enchantress for the past several years is important so we can start actually optimizing. Having certain cards as sacred cows isn't good when you're winning left and right, but I think we need to at least have a common starting point for design/discussion. I propose:

Draw/Mainupulation
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Argothian Enchantress
2 Mirri's Guile or Sylvan Library, with preference to the former

Mana
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
6 Forest
2 Plains
2 Serra's Sanctum

Protection
2 Solitary Confinement
1 Elephant Grass
1 Sphere of Safety
4 Leyline of Sanctity

Utility/Removal

1 Oblivion Ring
1 Rest in Peace
1 Seal of Cleansing or Seal of Primordium

In my mind, these quantities are all the minimum to be considered optimal and I think are fairly non-controversial for existence somewhere in the 75. For instance, I think running more than 2 Sanctums is right, but I also think that there are ways of constructing the deck/reasonable metagames where you don't want the extra nonbasics. Similarly, I don't see a problem with lists forgoing Savannah, although I definitely think it belongs in GWx versions as a 2 of alongside a 1-2 of Gx dual of the splash color because hitting all the colors becomes more important in those builds. I also have tried to keep this list as short as possible and keep the numbers associated with any given card as low as possible so as to maximize possible discussion.

Please, let me know what you guys think.

Also, Freggle - if you're open to it, I'd like to collaborate on the primer.

[GoldenCid]

Hey everyone, new here. Been playing GW Enchantress to good success for about 6 months now, I actually have not had more success with any other Legacy decks I've tried. I am excited to join the discussion! Also, how do I tag cards in my post?




What do you mean by U? There are different strokes of Blue decks in this format. Delver, Show and Tell, Counterbalance, Stoneblade. The only characteristic these decks share is that they run Islands, Brainstorm and Force of Will.

City of Solitude is worse than Choke. Choke is a threat, City is not.

Carpet of Flowers is really nice, especially against Delver decks.

Dovescape?? Please explain the applications of this card, I am intrigued. The effect is obviously powerful but 6 mana is a lot. It would be really sweet technology against Omni-Tell though, which is quite the unwinnable matchup, I think it might be the worst MU for this deck (at least for GW not sure about other versions). Even there, they cast Show and Tell putting Omni into play (you presumable put Dovescape into play) then cast Enter the Infinite and make 12 birds and kill you with them. Still, an interesting card maybe?

In the Eye of Chaos is a really powerful card but I have never seen it in action. It is theoretically good against Storm but Dark Ritual still makes a mana and it doesn't hinder their LEDs. It might be really nice against Force of Will decks b/c it also makes their Brainstorms cost 1U etc.

Yeah...i forgot choke...

When i say u deck i mean decks that disrupt your strategy using counterspells. Off course omnitell and similar probably does not justify the addition of caret of flowers due that they use 1 island to win. As Freggle mentioned above whether you us carpet of city depends on the scenario. Mainly i run a split of both cards.

Proably dovescape represent a strategy more than an answer. Commonly is combined with vexing shusher to counter oponent spells but not yours. Anyway it goes throught countermagic.

In the eye of chaos is tha bomb! I'm not saying that it's the best choice against counter magic but just think on paying 5 for fow! 2 for daze...maybe in combination with choke it'd shine!!
Yeah as its text reads, it does not hit artifact but i invite you to see what would happen with a combo hand like this with In the eye of chaos on line:

2 Dark ritual + petal + LED + cabal ritual + ad nauseam (with a land in play)

GC.

[LOLaSageOwl]

Sort of backing away from the more detailed discussions for a moment - can we try to define the core of the deck vs. the flex slots/playstyle choices? I don't expect to come up with a 58 card core like RUG Delver, but I think moving beyond the "4 Presence, 4 Argothian, everything else up to the pilot" view that's dominated discussion on Enchantress for the past several years is important so we can start actually optimizing. Having certain cards as sacred cows isn't good when you're winning left and right, but I think we need to at least have a common starting point for design/discussion. I propose:

Draw/Mainupulation
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Argothian Enchantress
2 Mirri's Guile or Sylvan Library, with preference to the former

Mana
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
6 Forest
2 Plains
2 Serra's Sanctum

Protection
2 Solitary Confinement
1 Elephant Grass
1 Sphere of Safety
4 Leyline of Sanctity

Utility/Removal

1 Oblivion Ring
1 Rest in Peace
1 Seal of Cleansing or Seal of Primordium

In my mind, these quantities are all the minimum to be considered optimal and I think are fairly non-controversial for existence somewhere in the 75. For instance, I think running more than 2 Sanctums is right, but I also think that there are ways of constructing the deck/reasonable metagames where you don't want the extra nonbasics. Similarly, I don't see a problem with lists forgoing Savannah, although I definitely think it belongs in GWx versions as a 2 of alongside a 1-2 of Gx dual of the splash color because hitting all the colors becomes more important in those builds. I also have tried to keep this list as short as possible and keep the numbers associated with any given card as low as possible so as to maximize possible discussion.

Please, let me know what you guys think.

Also, Freggle - if you're open to it, I'd like to collaborate on the primer.

Bringing this up is a good idea. The core spells for this deck should be:

4x Argothian Enchantress
4x Enchtress' Presence
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Wild Growth
4x Utopia Sprawl
1x Sylvan Library or Mirri's Guile though I think Guile is better because it is a 1 drop.

If you're not playing these 21 cards you aren't playing Enchantress, White or Blue version. Having all of these cards in your deck gives you the greatest probability of keeping a good opening hand. If you cut a Green Sun for example that's one less possible Enchantress to have in your opener which is unacceptable considering this deck doesn't function without an Enchantress in play.

If you're playing White you can add these to the core:

4x Sterling Grove
2-4x Solitary Confinement.

If you're playing white Sterling Grove is a pseudo 13-16th Enchantress. Confinement is your 3 mana "win condition". I like to play 3 because it's the worst possible card when you don't have Enchantress in play, is useless against Sneak Show, and isn't always a game-ending lock if the opponent has Deathrite Shaman.

Can't say much about the cards you would add to the core of the blue version because I have no experience with it but I would assume it would have 4x Cloud of Faeries?

This is the land base that I run. I have liked it but I should test variations on it.

10x Forest
8x Green Fetches
2x Savannah
2x Serra's Sanctum

I would like to test -1 Fetch or Basic +1 Sanctum or +1 Savannah. I like 10 Forest 0 Plains because Green mana is important, the deck can function without White mana but not without Green mana. You need Green sources of mana in the early turns, you can win games not playing a single white source until you need to play a white spell, you can win games with only one white source in play.





When i say u deck i mean decks that disrupt your strategy using counterspells. Off course omnitell and similar probably does not justify the addition of caret of flowers due that they use 1 island to win. As Freggle mentioned above whether you us carpet of city depends on the scenario. Mainly i run a split of both cards.

Decks that disrupt us with counterspells are not nearly as problematic as decks that disrupt us with discard. They have to counter our Enchantress or their counterspells become irrelevant because now if they want to counter our spell we still draw a card. This means they might have to 2 for 1 themselves with a Force of Will so they do not lose to the Enchantress. With discard on the other hand it is always a 1 for 1 trade for them and sometimes a 2 for 1 if it's Hymn to Tourach.


Proably dovescape represent a strategy more than an answer. Commonly is combined with vexing shusher to counter oponent spells but not yours. Anyway it goes throught countermagic.
Dovescape is an interesting win condition but I think it's just worse than other options. Sigil of the Empty Throne costs 1 less mana and doesn't mess with our spells, Helm + RiP kills them instantly.


In the eye of chaos is tha bomb! I'm not saying that it's the best choice against counter magic but just think on paying 5 for fow! 2 for daze...maybe in combination with choke it'd shine!!
Yeah as its text reads, it does not hit artifact but i invite you to see what would happen with a combo hand like this with In the eye of chaos on line:

2 Dark ritual + petal + LED + cabal ritual + ad nauseam (with a land in play)

I did not take into consideration that it makes Ad Nauseum cost 10, that is quite good. It would also be quite good against High Tide. High Tide costing 1U is a big deal b/c that is one less Island they have untapped. I would strongly consider splashing a Tropical Island for this card in the correct meta.

[The_Dingo]

Has anyone tried running suppression field in the maindeck? I had it in the SB and it kept proving its worth in match after match, and I finally moved it to the MD.

I generally have found the card to be very oppressive to my opponents while having only a minimal impact on my own development due to playing only 4 fetches and generally having more mana. I have not done extensive testing with it yet, but from the little I have done it seems strong.

[Potawo]

Hi, i played the Paris GP this WE. I dropped on 4-0-3 but i really enjoyed playing this deck.

Here the list i have registred :

1 plain
9 forest
4 windswept heath
4 Serra's sanctum
1 karakas
1 Dryad arbor

4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's presence
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Solitary Confinement
3 Sterling Grove
3 Rest in peace
2 Helm of obedience
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Mirri's Guile
1 Sphere of safety
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Emrakul
1 Sigil of the empty throne
1 Mana bloom

Side:
4 Leyline of sanctity
3 Rule of law
2 Oblivion ring
3 Carpet of flowers
1 City of solitude
1 Gaddock teeg
1 Ethersworn canonist

First i am a casual player so i haven't tested the deck a lot and i don't know the format very well... (i have only tested with a friend so it's not as effective as tested in real situations with several opponents!)

I played against :
1/ RIP/Helm combo with counterbalance (win 2/0),
2/ Burn (win 2/1). thx to the leyline!
3/ Elves (lose 0/2). Ok it's a bad match up but i loose because of 2 awfull hands. the first Game i muligan to 3 and i start with 2 forests and 1 heath... I have drawn Sanctum, then growth... ok, game 2. I muligan to 5 and i kept a bad hand with only a growth and Rule of law... I played the rule of law on turn 2 so i could survive some turns but i never drawn something useful...
4/ Nic Fit (win 2/1). A bad match up for me. All 3 games began the same ways with argothian for me, explorer + burning wish to pyroclasm for him. I won the first with Emrakul (the only time during all the WE!). He won the second. I won the third on a misplay. He sacrificed its pernicious deed too early so i can come back with 2 presence and kill him with RIP/Helm.
5/ Imperial Painter (lose 1/2): THE BIGEST MISPLAY I EVER MADE! He won his 2 games with the combo Painter/Grindstone but i didn't realize i had emrakul into my library...
6/ Dredge (win 2/0) : I sacrificed the grove to fetch RIP on the 2 games and so i had all the time i needed to kill him.
7/ U/W Miracles (lose 0/2) : A good player. He seems to play his deck since a long time and he made the good choices at the good time. I had correct hands but i never succeded to gain control of the board.

On friday, i played a last chance trial. I win the first round against UR Delver (2/0) and i lose the second round against Esper Stoneblade (1/2).

In fact, I was very enjoyed playing this deck and i never played the same match-up twice! I haven't seen any TNN, or TES or ANT!

My impressions:
- i like dryad arbor. I used it many times on turn 1 with GSZ, it can block a big creature to survive 1 turn more and it can be sacrified in response of the second ability of liliana!
- i never regret not playing elephant grass. Instead i played 4 solitary confinement, 1 sphere of safety, 1 sigil and 1 mana bloom (to keep solitary confinement in play without many enchantress effects and/or to combine with Sigil to be sure to have at least 1 angel per turn). Solitary is a must! Sigil was very usefull, i won many game with it and it can stop aggro early (especialy with mana bloom). But i was pretty disappointed with sphere of safety. I never used it in 9 round so i should have put it on SB.
- I hesitated playing sterling grove but i never regret this choice. I actually used it much more as tutor rather than for its ability to give shroud... The same is true for enlightened tutor, i think 1 in MD is the good compromise.
- I played Emrakul only 1 game during all the WE. But i haven't played against show and tell or sneak and it could have saved me on round 5 if i hadn't made this terrible misplay! So i think i will kept it main deck for few more test!
- I purchased a karakas just before the event and i never used it... Again, i don't played against show and tell, nor Death and taxes so i think it's still a good investisment for the future ;-)

In summary, if I had to replay the tournament I will only replace the sphere of safety MD by the 4th sterling grove. And i don't know what to think about mana bloom. I found it useful to help keeping a solidarity confinement in play or to generate angels without enchantress effect but in the same time, i often side it out... For the future i would like to test with more mana bloom (like 2 or 3) and i think it's possible to build the deck to take more advantage of it... or perhaps it's just an "anecdotic" card without potential!

I hope my english is not too bad!

[Freggle]

Also, Freggle - if you're open to it, I'd like to collaborate on the primer.

I was thinking more along the lines of the primer for the RIP / Helm version only, but yes I'd love to have more hands in the pot. I'll PM you my email. I hope to hit itlater this week. For that matterI would love to see some of the orginals chime in as well. (Spatula, Done Bite Holmes, ESG, Folorn, others i'm sure I missed ...) to create a comprehensive Enchantress primer.


Has anyone tried running suppression field in the maindeck?

Yes. It's a swingy card, but when it is good it is great. If it didn't hit helm (or if I switched wincons) I would run them main right now.


Hi, i played the Paris GP this WE. I dropped on 4-0-3 but i really enjoyed playing this deck.

Sweet run. I really enjoyed reading this. I did the same thing against painter when I first started testing Emrakul. Board out all or most RIP's when you play that MU becuase with RIP on the battlefield Emrakul exiles.

[btm10]

Bringing this up is a good idea. The core spells for this deck should be:

4x Argothian Enchantress
4x Enchtress' Presence
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Wild Growth
4x Utopia Sprawl
1x Sylvan Library or Mirri's Guile though I think Guile is better because it is a 1 drop.

If you're not playing these 21 cards you aren't playing Enchantress, White or Blue version. Having all of these cards in your deck gives you the greatest probability of keeping a good opening hand. If you cut a Green Sun for example that's one less possible Enchantress to have in your opener which is unacceptable considering this deck doesn't function without an Enchantress in play.

If you're playing White you can add these to the core:

4x Sterling Grove
2-4x Solitary Confinement.

If you're playing white Sterling Grove is a pseudo 13-16th Enchantress. Confinement is your 3 mana "win condition". I like to play 3 because it's the worst possible card when you don't have Enchantress in play, is useless against Sneak Show, and isn't always a game-ending lock if the opponent has Deathrite Shaman.

Can't say much about the cards you would add to the core of the blue version because I have no experience with it but I would assume it would have 4x Cloud of Faeries?

This is the land base that I run. I have liked it but I should test variations on it.

10x Forest
8x Green Fetches
2x Savannah
2x Serra's Sanctum

I think that UG Enchantress and WGx Enchantress are two wholly different decks and that discussion of UG should go into that thread. This one is for discussion of control Enchantress, if you want to think about it that way. There's even an argument for considering GW Helm Enchantress a separate deck. I don't think that it is, but the argument is there.

I had initially excluded GSZ, Enlightened Tutor, and Sterling Grove from my list because I think that the discussion is still active on these cards. I think that GSZ is definitely a serious contender for slots, I'm just not totally sold yet, and looking at the lists that have performed well in the past 6 months, I don't see unambiguous evidence either way. So putting those cards in as part of the core goes a little far, IMO.

[apple713]

Im working on a variant if this deck and was wondering what it loses to? Which cards and what matches?

I figure its weaknesses will be similar to the ones ill experience.

[btm10]

Combo is generally abysmal. If I had to rank it from least awful to most awful, I'd put it something like Elves, Reanimator, Sneak and Show, ANT, Omnitell.

The flip side is that tempo is 50/50 against pretty solid players in my testing and your straight aggro matches are as good as combo is bad. Midrange is favorable 55/45-ish) and your control match is highly build dependent. If you run WGb with 3-4 Duress/Thoughtseize + Words of Waste, run Sylvan Library over Guile, and run Replenish, it's good, but your tempo matchup will suffer a bit. If you go straight GW or GWr, its a little weaker but keeps the tempo matchup around 50/50. Jund can be rough no matter what you do.

[sun tzu]

if i was to make a deck around enchantress + dovescape, what synergies could i exploit? i feel like dovescape might have some potential, but ive never tried it so im not sure where to begin with the card. humility might work for a late game strategy, once you have 1 or 2 enchantress effects in play. elephant grass could also fit in. would a deck using this card even be viable? 6 mana can be obtained semi-easily but could it even be worth it? any ideas on a deck using dovescape would be greatly appreciated :D

[Nonex]

If you're using Green Sun's Zenith, finding Vexing Shusher so you get both the enchantment and the tokens is pretty neat. Otherwise, your curve is still higher than most other decks, so you get more tokens than them overall.

[Claymore1]

i was wondering if anyone had some good ideas of cards to use against decks with several counterspells.

A fairly late response, but I use a GW non-RIP build. I find that Choke to be quite a threat, where as City of Solitude, not so much. It will give them more to counter, and just bring them all back again with Replenish once their permission resources has been exhausted. I also started experimenting with something else, I was running a singleton Emrakul, on the deck as my last resort win-con. But I dropped it, in order to try an experiment and replaced the Emarakul with Decree of Justice instead. It's never a dead card really, and can be used as an early chump blocker.

If for some reason you find the card to be dead, just cycle it away, it's pretty similar to Sigil as it can make a bunch of angels for the finish, but int he face of permission however, cycling it for a mass army of soldiers does the job just fine.

[Hoojo]

I know that Suppression Field was brought up and that perked my interest enough to try a build centered around it. In my testing so far I've been impressed enough to share it with everyone to get more ideas on where to go with it. My impression was to drop it to shut off disruptions to my mana base (Wasteland,Rishadan Port) and hinder my opponents mana base by making fetches expensive. At the same time I would mitigate the effects on my own deck by cutting fetches and minimizing the cards that require activation. There are other splash damage effects, but these were my primary goal.


//Lands
3 Serra's Sanctum
4 Savannah
10 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Plains


//Creatures
4 Argothian Enchantress
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn


//Spells
3 Solitary Confinement
2 Sterling Grove
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Elephant Grass
4 Utopia Sprawl
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Wild Growth
3 Mirri's Guile
1 Exploration
4 Suppression Field
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
2 Rest in Peace


//Sideboard
2 Replenish
4 Oblivion Ring
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Stony Silence
1 Sphere of Safety
2 Choke


I have three total cards (2 Sterling Grove and a Karakas) that are affected by my own Suppression Fields. The limiting factor has been win conditions, but luckily there are two that Enchantress can run pretty effectively in Emrakul and Sigil of the Empty Throne. Helm would probably work as well but I have not tested it, since it is activated, but I would like to find a way to win outside the red zone if possible. What I like about this list is it makes several more early game "must counter" spells against decks that rely heavily on fetch lands. I don't feel the deck loses much by cutting back on Sterling Groves and its own fetches, but I do like having the extra Green Sun's Zenith to shuffle up. I tried both 4 Serra's Sanctum and 4 Green Sun's Zenith and drew into multiples too much; 3 of each has been very solid.

For the Sideboard, I've been wracking my brain on what to include vs Sneak and Show; All I have reliably come up with has been Oblivion Rings and Sphere of Safety. Has anyone come up with better tech?

[The_Dingo]

I know that Suppression Field was brought up and that perked my interest enough to try a build centered around it. In my testing so far I've been impressed enough to share it with everyone to get more ideas on where to go with it. My impression was to drop it to shut off disruptions to my mana base (Wasteland,Rishadan Port) and hinder my opponents mana base by making fetches expensive. At the same time I would mitigate the effects on my own deck by cutting fetches and minimizing the cards that require activation. There are other splash damage effects, but these were my primary goal.


//Lands
3 Serra's Sanctum
4 Savannah
10 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Plains


//Creatures
4 Argothian Enchantress
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn


//Spells
3 Solitary Confinement
2 Sterling Grove
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Elephant Grass
4 Utopia Sprawl
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Wild Growth
3 Mirri's Guile
1 Exploration
4 Suppression Field
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
2 Rest in Peace


//Sideboard
2 Replenish
4 Oblivion Ring
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Stony Silence
1 Sphere of Safety
2 Choke


I have three total cards (2 Sterling Grove and a Karakas) that are affected by my own Suppression Fields. The limiting factor has been win conditions, but luckily there are two that Enchantress can run pretty effectively in Emrakul and Sigil of the Empty Throne. Helm would probably work as well but I have not tested it, since it is activated, but I would like to find a way to win outside the red zone if possible. What I like about this list is it makes several more early game "must counter" spells against decks that rely heavily on fetch lands. I don't feel the deck loses much by cutting back on Sterling Groves and its own fetches, but I do like having the extra Green Sun's Zenith to shuffle up. I tried both 4 Serra's Sanctum and 4 Green Sun's Zenith and drew into multiples too much; 3 of each has been very solid.

For the Sideboard, I've been wracking my brain on what to include vs Sneak and Show; All I have reliably come up with has been Oblivion Rings and Sphere of Safety. Has anyone come up with better tech?

You'll have to let us know how the testing goes. I am playing it as a one of right now, but I could be convinced pretty easily to go up to 2 or 3. I also think that just because you are playing suppression field doesn't necessarily mean you can't also play helm, since this deck seldom has problems making very large quantities of mana. If you can cast Emrakul, then you can certainly play and activate helm through 1 or 2 suppression fields.

I think sphere of safety and O ring are just fine multipurpose SB cards that can be brought in against Emrakul.

I was using replenish in my SB for a while, but found that they didn't help me deal with any particular matches, and so I never sided them in. I replaced them eventually with Gaddock Teeg and a 3rd Carpet of flowers, and those have worked just great.

[Freggle]

I know that Suppression Field was brought up and that perked my interest enough to try a build centered around it. In my testing so far I've been impressed enough to share it with everyone to get more ideas on where to go with it. My impression was to drop it to shut off disruptions to my mana base (Wasteland,Rishadan Port) and hinder my opponents mana base by making fetches expensive. At the same time I would mitigate the effects on my own deck by cutting fetches and minimizing the cards that require activation. There are other splash damage effects, but these were my primary goal.


//Lands
3 Serra's Sanctum
4 Savannah
10 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Plains


//Creatures
4 Argothian Enchantress
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn


//Spells
3 Solitary Confinement
2 Sterling Grove
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Elephant Grass
4 Utopia Sprawl
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Wild Growth
3 Mirri's Guile
1 Exploration
4 Suppression Field
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
2 Rest in Peace


//Sideboard
2 Replenish
4 Oblivion Ring
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Stony Silence
1 Sphere of Safety
2 Choke


I have three total cards (2 Sterling Grove and a Karakas) that are affected by my own Suppression Fields. The limiting factor has been win conditions, but luckily there are two that Enchantress can run pretty effectively in Emrakul and Sigil of the Empty Throne. Helm would probably work as well but I have not tested it, since it is activated, but I would like to find a way to win outside the red zone if possible. What I like about this list is it makes several more early game "must counter" spells against decks that rely heavily on fetch lands. I don't feel the deck loses much by cutting back on Sterling Groves and its own fetches, but I do like having the extra Green Sun's Zenith to shuffle up. I tried both 4 Serra's Sanctum and 4 Green Sun's Zenith and drew into multiples too much; 3 of each has been very solid.

For the Sideboard, I've been wracking my brain on what to include vs Sneak and Show; All I have reliably come up with has been Oblivion Rings and Sphere of Safety. Has anyone come up with better tech?

I honestly think you are on to something here. After testing Sterling Grove for 2 weeks in the GW Helm list again I've come to the conclusion that the card really isn't what the deck needs.

What the deck does need is a way to deal with the following decks: Death and Taxes, Reanimator, BGx, and less and less ANT / TES.

A good way to the first 3 of those is run Suppression Field. To make them play more honestly taxing port / waste / Mangara / vial / Grizzy / Deed / Lilli...

This can slow them enough for us to dig in and gain advantage to push them out of the game.

Just last night I started testing Suppression Field in the Sterling slots, and it's too early to say if is the answer, but the logic is there.

Oring is the best for Sneak and show, because it also does a lot of work in other MUs. Other good ones are Helm (can steal their fattie), and Gaddock Teeg. Teeg post board shuts off Through the Breach and Sneak Attack plus force...

[Hoojo]

I honestly think you are on to something here. After testing Sterling Grove for 2 weeks in the GW Helm list again I've come to the conclusion that the card really isn't what the deck needs.

What the deck does need is a way to deal with the following decks: Death and Taxes, Reanimator, BGx, and less and less ANT / TES.

A good way to the first 3 of those is run Suppression Field. To make them play more honestly taxing port / waste / Mangara / vial / Grizzy / Deed / Lilli...

This can slow them enough for us to dig in and gain advantage to push them out of the game.

Just last night I started testing Suppression Field in the Sterling slots, and it's too early to say if is the answer, but the logic is there.

Oring is the best for Sneak and show, because it also does a lot of work in other MUs. Other good ones are Helm (can steal their fattie), and Gaddock Teeg. Teeg post board shuts off Through the Breach and Sneak Attack plus force...

Another added bonus of running Helm I see. I'll test it out as well as -1 Sphere of Safety +1 Gaddock Teeg in the board. I have a small Legacy scene growing here so I'm hoping to get more time in.

[Freggle]

Another added bonus of running Helm I see. I'll test it out as well as -1 Sphere of Safety +1 Gaddock Teeg in the board. I have a small Legacy scene growing here so I'm hoping to get more time in.

Yes. Helm is quite versatile. I even find myself at times using it to grab a creature to kill Liliana from time-to-time. ...or even just knock a Sensei's Divining Top off the top of someones deck or whatever value I see. Glad to see you add the Gaddock too. He's quite the tool to fight through a lot of combo decks.

For what it is worth per a request in this thread I actually streamed last night. I will try and got on for a bit tonight as well, but it will be tight as I'm catching a flight. If I do make it on perhaps you can stop on over: http://www.twitch.tv/forbiddengrove

[The_Dingo]

Yes. Helm is quite versatile. I even find myself at times using it to grab a creature to kill Liliana from time-to-time. ...or even just knock a Sensei's Divining Top off the top of someones deck or whatever value I see.

That's a nice trick to try and get rid of SD top. I don't play against miracles often, but I'll be keeping that trick in mind next time.

[btm10]

Suppression Field is actually at its absolute best against Miracles, because they're so reliant on activated abilities like Jace and Top.

[Skinbag]

Went to local legacy tourny. I placed first with this list.
Land(20)
Plains x2
Forest x10
Savannah x1
Dryad Arbor x1
Serra's Sanctum x2
Windswept Heath x4

Creatures(4)
Argothian Enchantress x4

Instants and Sorceries(3)
Green Sun Zenith x3

Other Spells(33)
Enchantress;s Presence x4
Oblivion Ring x3
Utopia Sprawl x4
Wild Growthx4
Sterling Grove x4
Solitary Confinement x4
Elephant Grass x3
Mirri's Guile x3
Wheel of Sun and Moon x1
City of Solitude x1
Sigil of the Empty Throne x1
Words of War x1

Sideboard(15)
Oblivian Ringx1
Leyline of Sanctity x4
Choke x3
Rest in Peace x2
Blood Moon x1
Humility x1
Wheel of Sun and Moon x1
City of Solitude x1
Stony Silence x1

I pilot it often. Great deck lots of fun.

[sun tzu]

Went to local legacy tourny. I placed first with this list.
Land(20)
Plains x2
Forest x10
Savannah x1
Dryad Arbor x1
Serra's Sanctum x2
Windswept Heath x4

Creatures(4)
Argothian Enchantress x4

Instants and Sorceries(3)
Green Sun Zenith x3

Other Spells(33)
Enchantress;s Presence x4
Oblivion Ring x3
Utopia Sprawl x4
Wild Growthx4
Sterling Grove x4
Solitary Confinement x4
Elephant Grass x3
Mirri's Guile x3
Wheel of Sun and Moon x1
City of Solitude x1
Sigil of the Empty Throne x1
Words of War x1

Sideboard(15)
Oblivian Ringx1
Leyline of Sanctity x4
Choke x3
Rest in Peace x2
Blood Moon x1
Humility x1
Wheel of Sun and Moon x1
City of Solitude x1
Stony Silence x1

I pilot it often. Great deck lots of fun.
this list looks pretty decent :D

the only thing i would change or consider changing is city of solitude. i feel like other cards can fit this slot better, and be better in a wider-variety of matchups. i could be wrong, however.

another thing i would look at is words of war as one of your win conditions. this card, to me, seems like it requires a great deal of set up to be truly effective. every time i've tried to build around this card it has only made the deck worse, or i would always find myself wanting a different threat that didnt require so much other stuff to be going right to make it work.

a tourney report would be awesome if you have the time and can remember it all (honestly i dont know how you guys remember your matches so well. do you just write stuff down constantly after the game? XD).

congratulations on your success man! good job!

on a completely different topic:
i also wanted to post this idea i had. cavern harpy could be an interesting idea to try to build around, using cloud of faeries + a semi-standard UG build. this card resets your faeries generating potentially a GRIP of mana for very cheap cost (1 life per 'reset'), and also dodges removal without the use of mana. the 2 power means it can almost be a win-condition (or side win-con) if you really need it to be, after you have locked up the game with words of wind. iuno just a weird oddball idea i figured i'd toss out there. personally i love eating up random ideas so if you guys have any weird oddball ideas do share them with me, and us :D

[anonymos]

a tourney report would be awesome if you have the time and can remember it all (honestly i dont know how you guys remember your matches so well. do you just write stuff down constantly after the game? XD).


I take notes. Helps when you hit top 8 and can reference them for sneaky things he played earlier.

[Hoojo]

Played a local event with the following:


//Lands
3 Serra's Sanctum
4 Savannah
10 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Plains

//Creatures
4 Argothian Enchantress
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

//Spells
3 Solitary Confinement
2 Sterling Grove
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Elephant Grass
4 Utopia Sprawl
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Wild Growth
3 Mirri's Guile
1 Exploration
4 Suppression Field
1 Helm of Obedience
2 Rest in Peace

//Sideboard
2 Replenish
4 Oblivion Ring
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Stony Silence
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Choke
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne


Round 1 VS Elves
G1 - He wins the roll and leads with Elvish Mystic. I lead with Utopia Sprawl on a Forest. He misses his land drop but drops another Mystic. I get the feeling that I'm not playing THE Elves. I drop Forest, Wild Growth, Argothian Enchantress, Mirri's Guile. He misses another land drop and passes the turn. I drop Savannah, Presence, Wild Growth, Exploration, Serra's Sanctum, Suppression Field, Solitary, Suppression Field. He scoops.

Out - Exploration and 1 GSZ
In - 2 Oblivion Rings

G2 - He starts with another Mystic, I lead with Forest, Mirri's Guile. He drops a forest and another Mystic and attacks for 1. I go Forest, Wild Growth, Argothian. He misses a land drop but plays Timberwatch Elves; I confirm its not combo Elves. I play Savannah, Argothian, Elephant Grass, Elephant Grass. He scoops.

Comments: Not real sure anything useful could be said.

1-0

Round 2 VS Death and Taxes
G1 - He wins the roll and plays Plains into Aether Vial. I play Forest, Utopia Sprawl and pass. Vial ticks up and he plays Plains, Mother of Runes. I don't see a Suppression Field but I manage to drop Argothian and another Wild Growth. He follows with and EOT Mom, ticks up vial, casts Stoneforge for Batterskull and pass. I cast Elephant Grass, but he responds with Spirit of the Labyrinth. I realize how f'd I am but I have Mirri's Guile too and I'm holding Serra's Sanctum. We go back and forth a bit, my Elephant Grass getting more expensive but I'm short on mana, forcing me to play Sanctum earlier than I wanted. He Wastes it as I don't see any Suppression Fields either and evenually just get beat to death.

Out - 2 RiP, 1 Helm, 1 Sterling, 3 GSZ
In - 2 Stony Silence, 1 Sigil, 4 Oblivion Rings

G2 - My start is much better, with 2 Argothians and both Suppression Field and Stony Silence getting in play. He gets a Thalia and a couple Moms, but his Sword of F&F and Batterskull are worthless. I keep up the pressure with Sigil and another Suppression Field and my Angels do him in.

G3 - He starts with Aether Vial, I start with Mirri's Guile. He ticks it up and gets Jitte and Mom into play. I play Stony Silence. We keep building up our sides, his Flickerwisp allowing him to get Jitte equiped, but Suppression Field keeping it from going off too much. He plays a Zealous Persecution knocking out my three Argothians, but I already had Emrakul and Sanctum in hand. I go to 7 life, but manage to blow him out with Emrakul, Karakas, and Annihilator.

Comments: I need to put either a Seal of Primordium or one Oblivion Ring main deck. When he dropped Spirit, I was able to stall a long while but not having any answer main deck was agitating to say the least. Suppression Field is a great card here.

2-0

Round 3 VS UWR Delver
G1 - His turn 1 Delver keeps missing, and Suppression Field makes his Batterskull weak. Multiple Serra's Sanctum was key for me in this match as I could chain them into Emrakul, which I did. TNN made no appearance.

Out - Exploration, 2 RiP, 1 Helm, 1 Sterling Grove
In - Sigil, 1 Stony Silence, 2 Replenish, Choke

G2 - He makes a few play mistakes, but I am mana and enchantment light for my Solitary. I have to let it go early and he beats in with Delver, Meddling Mage (naming Argothian), Stoneforge, and Batterskull.
G3 - Mana light again, I am forced to play a Sanctum earlier than I'd like and it gets Wasted after one use. This time his Mage names Solitary, and he's holding two Wear//Tears for my Choke and Suppression Field.

Comments: I should have put another Choke or a City of Solitude in my Sideboard, but I'm not sure what to cut. I think the Suppression Fields make this match winnable; Multiple Serra's Sanctums and Mirri's Guiles are a must.

2-1

Round 4 VS Sneak and Show
G1 - I keep a hand with Emrakul in it, just in case. It pays dividends as his Emmy meets my Emmy. Highlight of my night here.

Out - 3 GSZ, 2 Sterling Grove, 1 Exploration
In - 4 Oblivion Rings, Gaddock Teeg, Choke

G2 - I keep a hand with 2 Oblivion Rings in it. He turn one Show Grisel, I Ring it and he doesn't draw. He follows with another Show Grisel, I Ring again, he doesn't draw cards. I thank my lucky stars. He sits for a few turns while I build up and finally scoops. I beat Sneak and Show.

Comments: I entertained the idea of running more Emrakuls in the sideboard for this matchup. I might try it out.

3-1

I ended up second place. I think the Exploration can go; I'll probably make it an Oblivion Ring, adding another Choke or City of Solitude into the sideboard. I'm curious about City, since it stops Stoneforge, Port, and Vial antics.

[Freggle]

Looks like some people are having some good showings. :)

Hoojo, I've been testing Suppression Field again lately, and I agree it's pretty well positioned ATM.

I love the fact that it gives the deck so much more game against decks it previously would struggle with.

I played UG enchantress on the daily (on stream, pre figuring out the archive on Twitch [3-1]) last week and it felt very powerful. ...or when I played it against Cephalid Breakfast another previous poor mu.

I hope to stream over this weekend and talk more Enchantress if you have the chance stop on by twitch.tv/forbiddengrove

[The_Dingo]

Going to be playing enchantress in a largish tournament in RI next weekend. I'd be interested in hearing any advice or criticism people have to offer.

Lands
4 Windswept Heath
2 Savannah
1 Plains
4 Serra's Sanctum
7 Forests
1 Utopia Sprawl

Creatures
4 Argothian Enchantress
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Sorceries
3 Green Sun's Zenith

Enchantments
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Elephant Grass
3 Solitary Confinement
2 Mirri's Guile
2 Sterling Grove
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Exploration
2 Rest in Peace
2 Suppression Field
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne

Artifacts
1 Helm of Obedience

Sideboard
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sphere of Safety
2 Carpet if Flowers
1 Oblivion Ring
3 Stony Silence
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Surgical Extraction

The SB is tailored for my LGS, so I'd really like to get some advice on how to optimize it for a larger unknown meta. And any advice on how to play and SB against Sneak and Show, which is a matchup I am very inexperience at since no one at my LGS plays it on a regular basis.

[GoldenCid]

i always like not having opposing cards in my deck. I you run helm, why do you want G. Teeg or stony silence?? The same goes for suppression field but in this case when you are stablished you can easily pay 3 for activating helm.

Do you really need, emy and throne for winning in addition to helm-RIP? Maybe you could choose 1 and incluse some card that let you control the table.

Just my 2 cents,


GC.

[sun tzu]

Going to be playing enchantress in a largish tournament in RI next weekend. I'd be interested in hearing any advice or criticism people have to offer.

Lands
4 Windswept Heath
2 Savannah
1 Plains
4 Serra's Sanctum
7 Forests
1 Utopia Sprawl

Creatures
4 Argothian Enchantress
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Sorceries
3 Green Sun's Zenith

Enchantments
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Elephant Grass
3 Solitary Confinement
2 Mirri's Guile
2 Sterling Grove
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Exploration
2 Rest in Peace
2 Suppression Field
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne

Artifacts
1 Helm of Obedience

Sideboard
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sphere of Safety
2 Carpet if Flowers
1 Oblivion Ring
3 Stony Silence
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Surgical Extraction

The SB is tailored for my LGS, so I'd really like to get some advice on how to optimize it for a larger unknown meta. And any advice on how to play and SB against Sneak and Show, which is a matchup I am very inexperience at since no one at my LGS plays it on a regular basis.
i think more often than not you will want the 20th land over the 2nd explore. honestly im not even sure explore is worth it at all, as it requires you to have a solid foundation to enable the extra land drops frequently. i would do -2 explore +1 mirri guile (easily one of the best cards in the deck) +1 misty rainforest (to help with shuffling for mirri's guile.

[Hoojo]

i always like not having opposing cards in my deck. I you run helm, why do you want G. Teeg or stony silence?? The same goes for suppression field but in this case when you are stablished you can easily pay 3 for activating helm.

Do you really need, emy and throne for winning in addition to helm-RIP? Maybe you could choose 1 and incluse some card that let you control the table.

Just my 2 cents,


GC.

I found that mixing up my win conditions was actually very helpful, though I think Helm is a lot weaker than I expected. The best win condition has been Emy, followed by Sigil, but RiP is very good against several decks. Stony Silence was solid all day, too, making Helm that much weaker. I didn't play the Storm decks that were there, so I didn't have to decide between RiP and Stony Silence.

[LOLaSageOwl]

I'll be at a Dual Land tournament in RI this weekend with the following list:


4x Argothian Enchantress
4x Enchantress's Presence
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Wild Growth
4x Utopia Sprawl
4x Sterling Grove
4x Elephant Grass
3x Solitary Confinement
2x Oblivion Ring
2x Rest in Peace
1x Mirri's Guile
1x Helm of Obedience
1x Sigil of the Empty Throne

Lands (22)
9x Forest
3x Misty Rainforest
3x Verdant Catacombs
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Windswept Heath
2x Savannah
1x Bayou
2x Serra's Sanctum

Sideboard:
1x Blind Obedience
1x Choke
1x Aura of Silence
1x Nevermore
1x Stony Silence
3x Dread of Night
3x Humility

Played in a tournament this past weekend and lost to Spirit of the Labyrinth + Mother of Runes on three separate occasions. I decided that I should do something about this because D+T is becoming more popular. I am splashing Black for Dread of Night out of the sideboard because I think it is the best possible answer to Spirit. Spirit, Mother, and Thalia all die as as state based action. In combination with Humility it is a soft lock. I haven't had trouble with D+T in the past because their answers to Argothian are slim so it easily takes over the game but Spirit changes the matchup completely. Spirit locks us and we need to answer it. I was winning a game by a lot until my opponent played a Spirit with a Mother to protect it, I had to concede. With Aura of Silence, Dread, and Stony I am more confident in the matchup again. I think Humility is OK against them but not great because their Equipment gets around it easily and shuts off our Argothians, I think boarding in 1 is fine here though b/c it combos nicely with Dread.

I think that Nevermore is an ok card. Name Glimpse against Elves, name Sneak Attack, etc. I would like to test Nether Void in this slot, I would play one this weekend but I don't want to invest in one until I know it's good.

Suppression Field is an amazing card but I don't think I can properly alter my list to run it. Maybe I can cut 2 Groves for it and see how it runs.

Blind Obedience is my sideboard for Elves and Sneak Attack. It also does stuff against other decks but it is mostly for those two.

For those of you wondering how to beat Sneak and Show I can explain how I approach the matchup. Game 1 is really bad. The game ones that you win are when they Show in Emrakul and you O-Ring it, or (this hasn't happened to me but it's certainly possible) you Show in Helm and win. You can also sometimes win game 1 when Elephant Grass matches up nicely against Sneak Attack and you have time to stabilize, these situations are rare though.
Games 2 and 3 are much better depending on your sideboard, my sideboard has a bunch of live cards. In my particular list I would board as follows -3 Solitary Confinement (this card is bad b/c Emra annihilator just dumps on it), -2 RiP, -1 Helm and -1 Sigil (RiP doesn't do anything and I don't need the win condition b/c I can win with Humility + Argothian beats, or Blind Obedience extorts. They're locked out of the game so it doesn't matter how you win.)
I board in 3 Humility, 1 Blind O, 1 Aura of Silence, 1 Nevermore, and 1 Choke. Blind is good b/c they can't just slam Sneakers or Through the Breach and attack, they have to do it on your end step b/c their guy comes in tapped, it also put Lotus Petal in tapped. Giving you a turn to do things is huge b/c you can cast Humility and other things putting more pressure on them. Humility is our best possible card. In combination with Sterling they are locked out of the game. Aura is good because it makes Sneakers cost 6 and Lotus Petal cost 2, really good. Nevermore usually names Sneak Attack but will sometimes name Through the Breach depending on the board state. Choke is gravy. I've tried Stony Silence before but I don't think it does enough only shutting off Lotus Petal. I like keeping Elephant Grass b/c Grizz can't attack and Emra costs 3 to attack off of Sneak but it's possible cutting 1 for a Stony is good.
The really important thing to remember about this matchup is that they should be hard-pressed to cast Show and Tell. You really don't mind Show and Tell unless they are using it to put Sneak Attack into play. You really care about Sneak Attack because it wins them the game instantly. That's why having cards to hose the card Sneak Attack is important. With that being said, Show and Tell is not a reason to sandbag cards in your hand. Cast your Humilty and make them have an answer because most likely they are smart enough to not cast Show and risk losing to Humility that way. Remember that when Humility is in play they can't win until they draw a bounce spell. If you have Humility + Grove they are basically locked and you can do whatever you want. I play with the assumption that my opponent cut some are all of their Show and Tells in game 2 and 3 for Through the Breaches. They probably also board in at least 1 bounce spell (Truth or Wipe Away) and more countermagic (most likely Swan Song).
I hope this helps.

[Skinbag]

Some of the match ups as requested.
Ok first match up is Zombardment. I've never played against this deck before but i know it tagets me a lot.
I land early sun and moon. This cripples him. Next turn enchantress, next turn solitary GG.
Game 2 i side board leyline of sanct and get two in the opening hand plus the usaul wild growth and enchantress. GG.

Second match up is U/R delver burn. no TNN or anything. I play around daze and spell peirce landing enchantress's.
He fails to counter city of solitude I lay down solitary with a couple of enchantress's already out GG.
Second game Same thing deja vue
Third match up Some deathblade thingy. same as above. i know boring but hey. i win 2 in row agaisnt deathblade guy.

Fourth match up is death and taxes. A pain to play against. He flickerwisp my lands with wild growths ect.
But i stabilized with elephant grass followed buy solitare with mirri's guile. next turn sterling grove. GG.
Next game a sideboard stony silence and humilty and another city of solitude. City of solitude is good in my room, what can i say?
I land stony silence turn 2 negating his turn one aethervile and its down hlll for him from there.

I'll stop there becuz i feel like with enchantress(G/W/r) its almost all the same. You play around daze/spell peirce
and try to get in your bubble fast as possible. Hope this helps though. I have never really writen up my matches so sorry heh.
I have been playing enchantress for a reallly long time (G/W/r and U/G) and its my favorite deck. Let me know if you have questions about past match ups.
Oh and supression field seems like it would be awesome.

[The_Dingo]

I'll be at a Dual Land tournament in RI this weekend with the following list:

I'll be there as well with a list similar to the one I posted above. Hope to see you there, this should be a good event and I feel really confident that enchantress is well positioned to take down TNN, delver, and SFM.


Played in a tournament this past weekend and lost to Spirit of the Labyrinth + Mother of Runes on three separate occasions. I decided that I should do something about this because D+T is becoming more popular

I recommend trying out Suppression field. It has taken DnT from one of my least favorite matchups to something that I feel very comfortable with. It hoses them, plain and simple. Port, wasteland, vial, mom, and SFM are all slowed down significantly. I also like the irony of a strong taxing effect deployed against DnT.


I am splashing Black for Dread of Night out of the sideboard because I think it is the best possible answer to Spirit. Spirit, Mother, and Thalia all die as as state based action. In combination with Humility it is a soft lock.

I like the idea of a single dread of night in the SB, that way it can be tutored for with sterling grove. I'll probably test that this week.

Thanks for the SB advice and playing tips against sneak attack. I'll try and keep these in mind this weekend, and really hope that I can just dodge it.

[btm10]

I found that mixing up my win conditions was actually very helpful, though I think Helm is a lot weaker than I expected. The best win condition has been Emy, followed by Sigil, but RiP is very good against several decks. Stony Silence was solid all day, too, making Helm that much weaker. I didn't play the Storm decks that were there, so I didn't have to decide between RiP and Stony Silence.


I'll be at a Dual Land tournament in RI this weekend with the following list:


4x Argothian Enchantress
4x Enchantress's Presence
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Wild Growth
4x Utopia Sprawl
4x Sterling Grove
4x Elephant Grass
3x Solitary Confinement
2x Oblivion Ring
2x Rest in Peace
1x Mirri's Guile
1x Helm of Obedience
1x Sigil of the Empty Throne

Lands (22)
9x Forest
3x Misty Rainforest
3x Verdant Catacombs
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Windswept Heath
2x Savannah
1x Bayou
2x Serra's Sanctum

Sideboard:
1x Blind Obedience
1x Choke
1x Aura of Silence
1x Nevermore
1x Stony Silence
3x Dread of Night
3x Humility

Played in a tournament this past weekend and lost to Spirit of the Labyrinth + Mother of Runes on three separate occasions. I decided that I should do something about this because D+T is becoming more popular. I am splashing Black for Dread of Night out of the sideboard because I think it is the best possible answer to Spirit. Spirit, Mother, and Thalia all die as as state based action. In combination with Humility it is a soft lock. I haven't had trouble with D+T in the past because their answers to Argothian are slim so it easily takes over the game but Spirit changes the matchup completely. Spirit locks us and we need to answer it. I was winning a game by a lot until my opponent played a Spirit with a Mother to protect it, I had to concede. With Aura of Silence, Dread, and Stony I am more confident in the matchup again. I think Humility is OK against them but not great because their Equipment gets around it easily and shuts off our Argothians, I think boarding in 1 is fine here though b/c it combos nicely with Dread.

I think that Nevermore is an ok card. Name Glimpse against Elves, name Sneak Attack, etc. I would like to test Nether Void in this slot, I would play one this weekend but I don't want to invest in one until I know it's good.

Suppression Field is an amazing card but I don't think I can properly alter my list to run it. Maybe I can cut 2 Groves for it and see how it runs.

Blind Obedience is my sideboard for Elves and Sneak Attack. It also does stuff against other decks but it is mostly for those two.

For those of you wondering how to beat Sneak and Show I can explain how I approach the matchup. Game 1 is really bad. The game ones that you win are when they Show in Emrakul and you O-Ring it, or (this hasn't happened to me but it's certainly possible) you Show in Helm and win. You can also sometimes win game 1 when Elephant Grass matches up nicely against Sneak Attack and you have time to stabilize, these situations are rare though.
Games 2 and 3 are much better depending on your sideboard, my sideboard has a bunch of live cards. In my particular list I would board as follows -3 Solitary Confinement (this card is bad b/c Emra annihilator just dumps on it), -2 RiP, -1 Helm and -1 Sigil (RiP doesn't do anything and I don't need the win condition b/c I can win with Humility + Argothian beats, or Blind Obedience extorts. They're locked out of the game so it doesn't matter how you win.)
I board in 3 Humility, 1 Blind O, 1 Aura of Silence, 1 Nevermore, and 1 Choke. Blind is good b/c they can't just slam Sneakers or Through the Breach and attack, they have to do it on your end step b/c their guy comes in tapped, it also put Lotus Petal in tapped. Giving you a turn to do things is huge b/c you can cast Humility and other things putting more pressure on them. Humility is our best possible card. In combination with Sterling they are locked out of the game. Aura is good because it makes Sneakers cost 6 and Lotus Petal cost 2, really good. Nevermore usually names Sneak Attack but will sometimes name Through the Breach depending on the board state. Choke is gravy. I've tried Stony Silence before but I don't think it does enough only shutting off Lotus Petal. I like keeping Elephant Grass b/c Grizz can't attack and Emra costs 3 to attack off of Sneak but it's possible cutting 1 for a Stony is good.
The really important thing to remember about this matchup is that they should be hard-pressed to cast Show and Tell. You really don't mind Show and Tell unless they are using it to put Sneak Attack into play. You really care about Sneak Attack because it wins them the game instantly. That's why having cards to hose the card Sneak Attack is important. With that being said, Show and Tell is not a reason to sandbag cards in your hand. Cast your Humilty and make them have an answer because most likely they are smart enough to not cast Show and risk losing to Humility that way. Remember that when Humility is in play they can't win until they draw a bounce spell. If you have Humility + Grove they are basically locked and you can do whatever you want. I play with the assumption that my opponent cut some are all of their Show and Tells in game 2 and 3 for Through the Breaches. They probably also board in at least 1 bounce spell (Truth or Wipe Away) and more countermagic (most likely Swan Song).
I hope this helps.


I found that mixing up my win conditions was actually very helpful, though I think Helm is a lot weaker than I expected. The best win condition has been Emy, followed by Sigil, but RiP is very good against several decks. Stony Silence was solid all day, too, making Helm that much weaker. I didn't play the Storm decks that were there, so I didn't have to decide between RiP and Stony Silence.

This is basically my experience as well. Helm is best thought of as a sort of emergency release valve that you use when you need to win now. I actually think that Emrakul is too slow relative to Sigil, and if you're on GWr (which I've recently switched back to), then I like Words of War/Sigil/Helm as my wincons. But I think that the main finding with Enchantress recently has been that the wincons are largely irrelevant - what's important is having the right MD disruption and the ability to find it, which means the right tutor package. My meta isn't well suited to Stony Silence main, but Suppression Field is excellent and has been for a while. I agree that it's a house against D&T, but it's also very strong against Miracles (which is the reason I initially added it), and usually stays in against Blade variants as well because it taxes Deathrite, Jace, Liliana, SFM, and equipment, giving you time to just overrun them.

The other appeal of going back to GWr for me is the ability to run a singleton MD Blood Moon. It blows so many decks out of the water, and if you're running Suppression Field alongside the "normal" Enchantress lock package, I'm not sure if you need Dread of Night out of the board to beat Death and Taxes. If I were to put it back, I'd probably keep it as a tutorable 1-of.

This all brings me to my main point - I'm still not sold at all on GSZ, especially in builds that aren't all-in on RiP/Helm as their primary win condition. It takes up slots that could go to either more bullets and additional tutoring capacity or just more tutors. I'm on the 4 Grove/2 Enlightened Tutor package and love it. I see no reason to give up our ability to tutor for and protect our Enchantments in order to get virtual copies of Argothian. I guess it's fine if you're having a hard time sticking Enchantresses against tempo, but most of their permission is soft and I rarely have trouble ramping over it with Wild Growth and Sprawl before they kill me. It seems strictly worse than just playing around Daze actually opens you up even more to Spell Pierce.

[Darkenslight]

IF you're having trouble with Mom, try out some Damping Matrix in the board. IT hates on not only D&T (Mangara, Mom), but it also hates on cards like Batterskull and Cranial Plating. Doesn't hate on Moxes or LEDs, though.

[btm10]

Mom is generally not the source of people's problem with the D&T matchup. If your strategy is to use one-for-one removal on their threats, you've already lost. Even Words of War isn't a great crowd control option against them. Thalia, Port, and Mangara are by far the most dangerous cards in their deck and that's because they can slow you down and stop you from killing them. It's way better just to Grove + Confinement lock them and then take your time than it is to try and kill their guys. You have more Enchantments than they have ways to killing Angel tokens, and they have no way to stopping RiP/Helm once you've resolved both parts under Groves.

[LOLaSageOwl]

Mom is generally not the source of people's problem with the D&T matchup. If your strategy is to use one-for-one removal on their threats, you've already lost. Even Words of War isn't a great crowd control option against them. Thalia, Port, and Mangara are by far the most dangerous cards in their deck and that's because they can slow you down and stop you from killing them. It's way better just to Grove + Confinement lock them and then take your time than it is to try and kill their guys. You have more Enchantments than they have ways to killing Angel tokens, and they have no way to stopping RiP/Helm once you've resolved both parts under Groves.

I agree, the only problem is that we can't Solitary lock them when Spirit of the Labyrinth is a thing. Suppression field is really awesome against them too but it doesn't stop Spirit. That is why I'm sideboarding three copies of Dread of Night.

Someone mentioned D+T, Reanimator and BGx are the decks to deal with right now. D+T is dealt with by playing Dread of Night or Humility to answer Spirit of the Labyrinth. Once you've answered Spirit your plan is to fetch basic lands and gradually gain advantage through your Enchantress which they cannot easily answer. Eventually you will lock them with Sterling + Solitary and win with whatever win con you have.

Reanimator is miserable. I can't give you an answer. They put something into play on turn 2 and you scoop. We have RiP but they can Force, Thoughtseize, or Daze it so good luck. I suppose Humility helps. The reason this matchup is harder then Sneak and Show is b/c their guy comes into play on turn 2. They put in Grizz and just counter everything relevant or put in Iona naming white, not good.

BGx is interesting but I think I have figured out how to approach it for the most part. Their key cards are as follows: Abrupt Decay, Hymn to Tourach, Liliana of the Veil, Thoughtseize, Golgari Charm(or Maelstrom Pulse, or KGrip), Pernicious Deed (not very common but we have to assume they have it and be aware this card exists). They have a lot of ways to interact with us so trying to out-grind them and win via Solitary lock is difficult. Solitary is hard to get going because they often answer Enchantress effects. The solution is try and be as non-interactive as possible and protect our Enchantresses. The way to do this is board in all of your Leylines of Sanctity. Leyline shuts off Thoughtseize, Liliana -2 and -6, Hymn which adds up to 12 cards in their deck that we care about. Sterling Grove is our answer to Abrupt Decay and other targeted enchantment hate. If Sterling shines in one particular matchup it is this one because both abilities are very live. In my build I generally sideboard as follows: -2 O-Ring, -3 Confinement, +4 Leyline of Sanctity +1 Karmic Justice (I am not currently running Justice but I was for a long time so right now I would bring in Nevermore and name Pernicious Deed 95% of the time). Against BUG I would also shave a Grass for a Choke. Grass shines in this matchup b/c the majority of their creatures are black and therefore cannot attack (Bob, DRS, Creeping Tar Pit, Tidehollow Sculler, etc). Plus, their Goyfs are nerfed by RiP so Grass plus RiP is a really nice soft lock. Just to reiterate, Leyline is important because it turns off a lot of their ways to answer Argothian Enchantresses. With Leyline in play their answers to Argothian include Golgari Charm, Zealous Persecution, Engineered Explosives, PDeed. These cards are all 2 ofs at most. The game plan is to stick an Enchantress and start going off, Grass and RiP stall the game and eventually we slam a win con they cannot answer.
I hope this helps.

[Skinbag]

Humility and 3-4 o-rings helps vs D&T. Really what frightens me in D&T is well timed flickerwisp. I usaully out ramp thalia dont you guys? Spreading out the wild growths ect to play around ports. Not saying its easy match up. D&T eternally annoying.
Flickerwisp to blink ramped lands. Ethersworn canonnist slows us to a crawl and spirit of the labyrinth well its just evil. Also running into zealous persecution these days as well thumping out the enchantress.
Once again anyone laying down some suppression fields on D&T?
Keep it tight.

[LOLaSageOwl]

The problem with Oblivion Ring against D+T is that it can't reliably target their creatures because of Mom. It's still really good though. It will most of the time target Vial but it also deals with Equipment and random stuff like Aura of Silence and Serenity. Answering Vial is a big deal in the matchup b/c it means they can't deploy threats while Porting, Wasting, and Dust Bowling us.

[btm10]

I'm not sure what anyone else's meta is like, but D&T just isn't prevalent enough in mine to warrant the Dread of Night anymore. And I really can't get behind worrying too much about Spirit of the Labrynth. The last 3 D&T players I've played against have had it as a 1-2 of sideboard card, so it won't tip the scales on the sideboard slot either. I'm also surprised that you have that much trouble wlith Reanimator relative to other combo. If you're expecting a lot of it, it's not hard to run 4-5 RiP + Leyline of the Void alongside some number of additional Oblivion Rings and make the matchup at least playable. Unless they go straight to Tidespout Tyrant or Iona, you have plenty of answers in O.Ring and especially in Elephant Grass because Griselbrand is their go-to dude if they're blindly reanimating something.

BUG is hard, but it's easier than Jund was and really isn't that bad. DRS can't hit enchantments, they usually have minimal graveyard hate, and they usually only have 4-6 pieces of discard even postboard, so Replenish is excellent against them. Leyline of Sanctity is very strong too, as is Enlightened Tutor because it let's you search for things while keeping Groves up.

[Mortox]

Anyone have any tips for the Elves matchup, or sideboard suggestions?

I've been having a tough time against them, could just be due to my draw variance since I felt I was well equipped with 4x Elephant Grass, 3x Solitary, 3x Suppression Field maindeck, among other things, but their sheer draw power in the early turns (can usually go off by about T2-3 as you're aware) is usually too much for me, and happens before I have started the Enchantress engine.

Even in games where I feel like I have it fairly well locked up they just have to GSZ for a Pridemage or Harmonic Sliver and destroy a Solitary or whatever and usually that's enough for the win.

Plus Elephant Grass usually seems pretty terrible as once they drop a Gaea's Cradle they can virtually ignore it and start swinging with at least a few creatures.

Maybe something like Moat or Humility could be worth trying but they're both probably too slow to correct the problem I'm having.

The fact that most Elf decks are running some number of Cabal Therapy and Thoughtseize only makes the matchup more frustrating as that requires considering Leylines from the board and further diluting the maindeck.

Again it could just be some bad luck on my part but the matchup doesn't seem very good. Anyone have any suggestions or opinions on the matchup?

edit: I do run 1 Blind Obedience in the board that I was bringing in, it helps somewhat in slowing down their Heritage Druid draws and brings Craterhoof in tapped but they can still play around it; it really just delays them a turn which didn't seem to be enough.

[btm10]

It really depends on your splash colors and what your overall configuration is. If you're running 4 GSZ, straight GW, and less than 4 Sterling Grove, then running additional acceleration to get to the 4 mana spells and maybe an extra copy of Blind Obedience are about as good as it gets. There's also that white instant that gives all nonwhite creatures -1/-1, but I don't remember the name of it. It kills your Argothian, but it also stops you from dying, so it's probably worth the tradeoff if you're dropping 1-2 rounds/tournament to Elves.

On the other hand, if you run a more traditional build and Elves is a problem, it's definitely worth exploring the black splash for Engineered Plague which usually just wins against Elves. They still have Harmonic Sliver, but they usually have to GSZ for 3 (i.e., get to 4 mana) and do it without mana Elves other than DRS. It really shouldn't be too hard for you to stabilize from that point. Obviously the black splash also gives you goodies like Thoughtsieze and The Abyss.

[LOLaSageOwl]

Been testing with a one-of Nether Void in the board for the past couple of days and the card is absurd so far. Need to test more games with it. It hosed High Tide after he countered my Choke and it hosed Elves hard.

[GoldenCid]

Against elves you have humility and rule of law as more traditional cards. Then you can lock them out with confinement + draw or field + rip. Didnt you tried this?

Enviado desde mi XT890 mediante Tapatalk

[Freggle]

Someone mentioned D+T, Reanimator and BGx are the decks to deal with right now.


That was me. I still believe that. Sometimes Elves can be a problem as Mortox describes. Given the current list I'm trying it seems liek one card that can help all of these MU's is a non-enchantment Swords to Plowshares.

Swords can remove a good deal of threats from Reanimator, can potentially remove the troublesome bear in D&T, and drastically reduce the threat of BGx decks if we remove bob, or a huge goyf.

For Mortox it could also remove a large Craterhoof, or a combo creature. I hadn't tested it because it is a non-enchantment, and I did not know where to fit it in. However, after reflection I think it can be tested in the (3) Carpet of Flowers slots in the board. This was if RUG deploys an early threat we can swords it in stead of trying to power past it, and then we have a card that is functional in a lot more mu's.

Over this weekend (possibly even today) I intend to power-up the stream, and I will give that set-up a shot at least for a bit.

[btm10]

For what little it's worth, I ran Swords MD for a long time. Usually as a 2-of, but it gives you a ton of flexibility for when you don't have Moat/Sphere or when Elephant Grass can't cut it. I think that if you're having trouble with fast creatures, it's totally worth testing.

[Mortox]

Against elves you have humility and rule of law as more traditional cards. Then you can lock them out with confinement + draw or field + rip. Didnt you tried this?


Well I've never been a fan of Moat in this deck since I feel Elephant Grass/Solitary cover that aspect, and as I said against Elves the problem is that they go off before I go off, meaning that a 4-mana enchantment doesn't really seem like the ideal solution for the problem I'm having. That said, it could be cast as early as T3 which might be enough some of the time so maybe I'll test one or two out.

Of course I try to establish a confinement lock, but this isn't something we usually do until ~T4 at the earliest as you spend your first couple turns setting things up and by then Elves can kill you. I will play my Elephant Grass/Solitary very early in the Elves matchup even if I have to let them go the following turn, just to try and survive additional turns, but this strategy is hit or miss and is very draw dependent on what you peel.

I suppose it's silly to speak hypothetically rather than just post my list so this is what I've been running:


//Lands (20)
3 Savannah
2 Karakas
3 Serra's Sanctum
2 Plains
10 Forest

//Creatures (5)
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Argothian Enchantress

//Enchantments (30)
4 Elephant Grass
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
4 Enchantress's Presence
3 Mirri's Guile
3 Rest in Peace
3 Suppression Field
3 Solitary Confinement
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Oblivion Ring

//Other Spells (5)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Helm of Obedience

//Sideboard (15)
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Stony Silence
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Choke
1 Blind Obedience
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg


I've run it through a few dailys online recently, I've 3-0'd two in a row (opting to split the finals in both cases) and 2-2'd a couple others. I have it in paper as well, been testing it quite a bit.

I definitely like the Suppression Fields maindeck, I feel like D&T is actually favorable post board and I've been winning quite a few G1's as well mainly due to the Suppressions.

Whenever I bring in the 3 Stony Silence from the board (be it for Miracles, D&T, combo running artifact mana, etc) I board out the Helm/RiP combo and bring in the Blind Obedience just as another potential wincon/disruption (albeit slow as hell!) and 9 times out of 10 the opponents will end up playing a Needle or Revoker naming Helm which is pretty awesome.

The 1 Qasali Pridemage is there mainly for the Miracle matchups. I've had quite a few games in testing where if they get a Top+Counterbalance lock on it can become almost impossible to win. The idea with the Pridemage was to be able to GSZ for some arbitrary cmc and bring it into play to blow up the Counterbalance. It's a recent (re)addition but the plan has played out a couple times successfully so for now I'll leave it. I don't bring it in for much else besides Miracles though as for most other artifact/enchantment targets I have the Seal of Primordium or ORings which I prefer to run.

So far the biggest complaints I have with my list are, as I said, the Elves matchup, and that sometimes the deck just loses to itself. I'll go on stints where I draw pretty much the nuts (or at least very workable hands) for 20 games in a row, then I'll hit a patch where I have to mull to 4 over and over because all I have is 1 Karakas and 6 green cards or something like that. Plus the 3 Savannah I run have been a bit of a liability all said and done; situations where Savannah is my only land and I have to Growth/Sprawl it only to have it Wastelanded is often the end of the game. I may cut the 3 Savannah and do something like 2 Forest+1 Plain or 2 Forest + 1 Serra's Sanctum, not sure yet. Obviously I'm not running any fetchlands because I'm maindecking Suppression - I played for a long time without Suppression at which point I was running Windswept Heath's but the number of cards that Suppression hoses is unreal; Aether Vial, Rishadan Port, Wasteland, Liliana, Equipment, Fetchlands, Sneak Attack, Thespian Stage, Engineered Explosives, I mean the number of decks where Suppression has no significant impact are far and few between and when you combine it with an early Elephant Grass you can really stifle everything your opponents doing while buying you multiple turns. I just had a game where my UWR Delver opponent had 1 Volcanic Island and 4 fetchlands in play versus my Suppression and it bought me about 10 turns to setup.

Anyway I'll definitely try out some of the suggestions here. Rule of Law is something I forgot about, I'm not sure if it's what I need but it's worth trying out against Elves. I'll also try out the StP idea, maybe add 2 to the board and cut the Carpets as you suggested Freggle. Another color splash is also something I've thought about, I've tried red versions in the past with War of Words and Blood Moon but it didn't really feel competitive or consistent enough. I never gave the black splash an honest try but running 2-3 Engineered Plague definitely sounds appealing as well as The Abyss/Nether Void; are there any black splash lists anyone has been working on? Would love to see one that has had at least marginal success. In any case I imagine a 3rd color splash would require removing the maindeck Suppression and adding at least 4 fetchlands back to the deck, which I wouldn't be entirely opposed to trying.

I've definitely had a rekindled interest in Enchantress over the last month or so, I really enjoy playing the deck and I think it has a lot of decent matchups. Plus there's nothing more satisfying than dominating D&T with tax effects.

[btm10]

Well I've never been a fan of Moat in this deck since I feel Elephant Grass/Solitary cover that aspect, and as I said against Elves the problem is that they go off before I go off, meaning that a 4-mana enchantment doesn't really seem like the ideal solution for the problem I'm having. That said, it could be cast as early as T3 which might be enough some of the time so maybe I'll test one or two out.

Anyway I'll definitely try out some of the suggestions here. Rule of Law is something I forgot about, I'm not sure if it's what I need but it's worth trying out against Elves. I'll also try out the StP idea, maybe add 2 to the board and cut the Carpets as you suggested Freggle. Another color splash is also something I've thought about, I've tried red versions in the past with War of Words and Blood Moon but it didn't really feel competitive or consistent enough. I never gave the black splash an honest try but running 2-3 Engineered Plague definitely sounds appealing as well as The Abyss/Nether Void; are there any black splash lists anyone has been working on? Would love to see one that has had at least marginal success. In any case I imagine a 3rd color splash would require removing the maindeck Suppression and adding at least 4 fetchlands back to the deck, which I wouldn't be entirely opposed to trying.

I've definitely had a rekindled interest in Enchantress over the last month or so, I really enjoy playing the deck and I think it has a lot of decent matchups. Plus there's nothing more satisfying than dominating D&T with tax effects.

I'm not sure if I'd cut the Carpets for the Swords, but other than that (and the Miracles comment), I agree with everything you've written. Clearly, I'm a huge proponent of GWb, especially if Miracles is a problem. Suppression Field + Words of Waste is usually game against Miracles because then they're just playing off of their topdeck and have to invest so much mana in setting up and casting Entreat that you can usually just smash them with whatever you want. The ability to maindeck Thoughtsieze is also excellent against all sorts of decks, but can strip their CBs or other early counters so you can be guaranteed to set your engine up. Honestly, if you aren't seeing a lot of RUG or combo, it's probably right to be running Replenish since more opponents will be all in on either discard or countermagic against you. Even against the most difficult BGx decks, that've got Golgari Charm + Krosan Grip + Abrupt Decay + 6-8 discard spells, but landing Replenish just resets the clock in your favor, and if they've maxed out on discard and enchantment removal against you, it's unlikely that they have all of those things AND the countermagic to stop Replenish, especially since they've probably spent a counter or two on an enchantment or enchantress.

On the mana issue, think 3 Savannah is a bit much. Honestly, I've gone to just a singleton G/x dual where X is my splash color. Otherwise, it's Forests, Plains, Sanctums. This is partly because I've gone back to GWr for my local meta where Blood Moon just wins and I don't like having too many extra mountains, and partly because I see no real reason to make myself vulnerable to Wasteland and Price of Progress at the moment. I have a black splash list that I've done well with recently a few pages back; some people have suggested running Cadaverous Bloom in GWb, but after testing I feel like they're nightmares to play. It's a strictly win-more card and is often counterproductive. My old list is:

Mana Sources/Lands (27)
5 Forest
4 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
2 Savannah
2 Serra's Sanctum
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth

Engine(16)
4 Argothian Enchantress
3 Sterling Grove
3 Enchantress's Presence
2 Sylvan Library
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Replenish

Staying Alive(6)
3 Elephant Grass
1 Sphere of Safety
1 The Abyss
1 Leyline of Sanctity

Answers(8)
3 Thoughtseize
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Suppression Field
1 Words of Waste

Win(3)
1 Rest in Peace
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 Helm of Obedience


Sideboard:

3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Aura of Silence
2 Engineered Plague
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Choke
1 Blind Obedience
1 Rule of Law
1 Stony Silence
1 Suppression Field
1 Rest in Peace

This was for a control+midrange-heavy meta with little non-Elves combo and only a few Tempo decks, so Sylvan was better than Guile + Confinement. I've since switched a few cards to put 1 Guile + 2 Confinement main and gone up to 4 Presence. I'll post my current GWb list later. Hope this helps.

[LOLaSageOwl]

I've never had miracles be a difficult MU. The thing is that even if they get CB + Top online is that we still draw a card if they counter it which eventually gives us enough gas to start casting many spells a turn and overwhelm them. It sucks if they float a 4 and 5 to counter Helm and Sigil but they only have 4 Force and 4 Jace and they might not even know that they're supposed to do that. If Emra is your win con though it's just lights out. The games I've lost to Miracles involved Terminus followed by Ethersworn Canonist.

Did not do well at the tournament in RI today. Didn't end up splashing Black for Dread of Night and stuck with my stock list I've been on for a while. My play was fine all day the deck just didn't want me to win. The only egregious error I made didn't matter b/c I would have lost that game even without the error. One other guy is there on Enchantress and he made top 8 which is great.

[The_Dingo]

One other guy is there on Enchantress and he made top 8 which is great.

I was the other guy on enchantress. It was cool when in round 2 I looked at the game to my right and saw a bunch of enchantresses in play. Wish we had had more time to compare notes.

[nedleeds]

Rule of Law seems like the best card .... against Enchantress.

[GoldenCid]

Im testing this GWu list and i'd appreciate your comments!

4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Elephant Grass
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
2 Mirri's Guile
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Rest in Peace
2 Helm of Obedience
4 Sterling Grove
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
2 Serra's Sanctum
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Karakas
2 Tropical Island
4 Plains
5 Forest
2 Energy Field
1 Ancestral Knowledge
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Solitary Confinement
SB: 1 Oblivion Ring
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 1 City of Solitude
SB: 1 Sphere of Safety
SB: 1 Moat
SB: 1 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Humility
SB: 1 In the Eye of Chaos
SB: 1 Karmic Justice

THx!!

GC.

[Dihensoeur]

Anyway I'll definitely try out some of the suggestions here. Rule of Law is something I forgot about, I'm not sure if it's what I need but it's worth trying out against Elves. I'll also try out the StP idea, maybe add 2 to the board and cut the Carpets as you suggested Freggle. Another color splash is also something I've thought about, I've tried red versions in the past with War of Words and Blood Moon but it didn't really feel competitive or consistent enough. I never gave the black splash an honest try but running 2-3 Engineered Plague definitely sounds appealing as well as The Abyss/Nether Void; are there any black splash lists anyone has been working on? Would love to see one that has had at least marginal success. In any case I imagine a 3rd color splash would require removing the maindeck Suppression and adding at least 4 fetchlands back to the deck, which I wouldn't be entirely opposed to trying.

I've definitely had a rekindled interest in Enchantress over the last month or so, I really enjoy playing the deck and I think it has a lot of decent matchups. Plus there's nothing more satisfying than dominating D&T with tax effects.

Hi all,
For Mortox or any player that want to try a GWb enchantress list, this is my best tested list (among all Enchantress lists that I tested):


1 Bayou
1 Karakas
1 Serra's Sanctum
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
8 Forest
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Leafcrown Dryad
2 Helm of Obedience
1 Carpet of Flowers
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 Sphere of Safety
3 Rest in Peace
3 Solitary Confinement
4 Abundant Growth
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Toxic Deluge
3 Duress
3 Inquisition of Kozilek


Sideboard:

1 Ashen Rider
2 Golgari Charm
3 Cursed Totem
3 Seal of Primordium
3 Thoughtseize
3 Phyrexian Revoker


Good luck.

[btm10]

Why Leafcrown Dryad? It doesn't advance your gameplan at all, it isn't evasive, and it's really small. Duress/Inquisition main with Thoughtseize board seems backwards; swapping TS for Duress seems better. Really, the deck is very discard-heavy for not running Words of Waste. Sylvan Libray also synergizes well with Words, but is a non-bo with Solitary. Then again, you aren't running Guile either, which seems odd. Toxic Deluge seems so bad that I don't know where to start, especially when you're running additional small creatures. What do you do in the control mirror? What do you do against combo? The discard can knock them off their game a bit, but your deck doesn't really apply meaningful pressure. How do you consistently make non-green mana? Why Misty over Verdant Catacombs? 6 Fetch seems like too many. Why only 1 Sanctum? Why 1 Bayou and no Savannah or even basic Plains? Does Abundant Growth really work as a 4-of? Doesn't running 12 Enchant Lands, especially as your only color fixing, make you just scoop to Flickerwisp? MD Carpet is interesting, but why only 1? Why no tutoring other than 1 GSZ?

I'm not a mod, but if you're going to post a decklist that's this unorthodox, you owe us at least some kind of explanation of the choices.

[Dihensoeur]

Why Leafcrown Dryad? It doesn't advance your gameplan at all, it isn't evasive, and it's really small. Duress/Inquisition main with Thoughtseize board seems backwards; swapping TS for Duress seems better. Really, the deck is very discard-heavy for not running Words of Waste. Sylvan Libray also synergizes well with Words, but is a non-bo with Solitary. Then again, you aren't running Guile either, which seems odd. Toxic Deluge seems so bad that I don't know where to start, especially when you're running additional small creatures. What do you do in the control mirror? What do you do against combo? The discard can knock them off their game a bit, but your deck doesn't really apply meaningful pressure. How do you consistently make non-green mana? Why Misty over Verdant Catacombs? 6 Fetch seems like too many. Why only 1 Sanctum? Why 1 Bayou and no Savannah or even basic Plains? Does Abundant Growth really work as a 4-of? Doesn't running 12 Enchant Lands, especially as your only color fixing, make you just scoop to Flickerwisp? MD Carpet is interesting, but why only 1? Why no tutoring other than 1 GSZ?

I'm not a mod, but if you're going to post a decklist that's this unorthodox, you owe us at least some kind of explanation of the choices.

I posted my list because someone talks about GWb version and he would a list. I didn't give explanation because many people doesn't like any splash of Enchantress list and I didn't want to give some explanation if there is nobody to read them.

The explanations, that I will give you, are the results of my experience (and sorry for my english).



Why Leafcrown Dryad?

Because this is the best enchant-creature card:
- It stops the Delver T1/T2.
- It can be sacrified instead of Argothian VS Liliana of the veil.
- It can block.
- It offer a pressure (specially VS control/combo). Enchantress has no pressure and so control/combo have any time that they want to kill us.
If opponent consumes cards to kill him, that's mean that he doesn't like the card no? So, even Dryad takes all, it's still good for us (a decay on it instead of Enchantress presence or other.., a bolt instead of on us, stp? Ok you win 2 lifes that enable you to gain at least one more turn before die from Deathrite Shaman).
I tested the card and like it so I play it ^_^.


Duress/Inquisition main with Thoughtseize board seems backwards; swapping TS for Duress seems better.
First, I prefer Duress on TS because we lose many life during a game before win/lock and VS aggro.deck (BUG/Patriot...), each life point is precious.
VS combo.deck we can easily consume our life.
Moreover, why TS will be better than duress for us ? We need to discard generally no-creature spells (decay,spell pierce, Hymn, Liliana....). TS is useful only for Combo (specially Elves) so => Sideboard for me.


Really, the deck is very discard-heavy for not running Words of Waste. Sylvan Libray also synergizes well with Words, but is a non-bo with Solitary.
We need discard to gain time (specially vs combo.deck), so we need to play discard very quickly (badly there is no enchantment to get this job). Words of Waste is useless alone and cost 3 (too heavy). Sylvan Library is good alone but as you said, no-bo with Solitary.


Then again, you aren't running Guile either, which seems odd.
I know Guile is very good, but no place for this (for me), so I prefer to have faith on my draw engine to get what I want.


Toxic Deluge seems so bad that I don't know where to start, especially when you're running additional small creatures.
Have you never been in a situation where you want to reset the board ? Have you never lived a game where you have no creature (liliana, Golgari charm, counter spell ...) but opponent has 2 Tarmo + some Delver or TNN ? Me yes, that why I play this x1. It's only for critical situation and reverse the game.


What do you do in the control mirror? What do you do against combo? The discard can knock them off their game a bit, but your deck doesn't really apply meaningful pressure.
What is the Enchantress pressure VS combo.deck? For me nothing because we are too slow. VS Combo.deck, I play heavy discard to gain time, I make pressure with Dryad (Dryad can enchant Dryad to deal more damage without waiting the next turn because Dryad hasn't haste) and I kill with Dryad and/or Helm or Sigil.


How do you consistently make non-green mana?
Abundant growth, Utopia make perfectly the job.


Why Misty over Verdant Catacombs? 6 Fetch seems like too many.
It's simply because I have no Verdant Catacombs ^_^, but in any case, it doesn't seem to be important because we need green mana so all fetch have to be G/X.
Even with 6 fetchs, I have still the feeling that I draw too many lands. It's just my feeling from my experience.


Why only 1 Sanctum? Why 1 Bayou and no Savannah or even basic Plains?
In order to keep a limit of non-basic land. No basic plains because I need green no others colors (Abundant/Utopia make the job).


Does Abundant Growth really work as a 4-of? Doesn't running 12 Enchant Lands, especially as your only color fixing, make you just scoop to Flickerwisp?
Flickerwisp is a good hate for us in any case. Why I will scoop to it ? During the game you know what color you want, and you draw a lot. You doesn't enchant the same land specially when your opponent is Death&Taxes. Moreover you can discard them by Kozilek (^_^) (and TS if you play it MD).


MD Carpet is interesting, but why only 1? Why no tutoring other than 1 GSZ?
I want to keep at least 6 discards MD and many enchantment, so it's difficult for me to add more GSZ (you can play another one instead of Toxic Deluge if you want).
Only one carpet because it's a "blue-hate" and opponent can play around it (moreover I'm short with available slots).

Thanks you for your questions. I hope I answered you correctly.

Regards,
Dihensoeur

[The_Dingo]

Hi all,
For Mortox or any player that want to try a GWb enchantress list, this is my best tested list (among all Enchantress lists that I tested):


1 Bayou
1 Karakas
1 Serra's Sanctum
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
8 Forest
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Leafcrown Dryad
2 Helm of Obedience
1 Carpet of Flowers
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 Sphere of Safety
3 Rest in Peace
3 Solitary Confinement
4 Abundant Growth
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Toxic Deluge
3 Duress
3 Inquisition of Kozilek


Sideboard:

1 Ashen Rider
2 Golgari Charm
3 Cursed Totem
3 Seal of Primordium
3 Thoughtseize
3 Phyrexian Revoker


Good luck.

How well does Leafcrown dryad apply pressure to combo? Do you prioritize casting it before an enchantress?

Not having elephant grass in the deck at all seems kind of weird to me, as it is one of the cornerstones of the deck IMO.

[Dihensoeur]

How well does Leafcrown dryad apply pressure to combo? Do you prioritize casting it before an enchantress?

Not having elephant grass in the deck at all seems kind of weird to me, as it is one of the cornerstones of the deck IMO.

Don't forget that it's my feeling from my experience and I'm not a pro player.

Yes Leafcrown Dryad applies pressure to combo. 2/2 then 4/4 so 2 then 6 damages by turn...
For me, you can't win by playing enchantress then try to be faster than combo.

Elephant Grass is no more efficient for me. Pay 2 to deals 3 damages by turn (Delver/TNN) it's enough to kill us.
Moreover, Elephant Grass slow us instead of really protect us. It's my feeling from my experience, I lose many game where Elephant Grass was totally useless (and it's not VS combo.deck).

It's just my personal list. I don't incite you to play my list (except if you like it ^^). It's just to give you an example of a GWb Enchantress list that I tested.

Regards,
Dihensoeur

[Bertrand Hustle]

Hi all,
For Mortox or any player that want to try a GWb enchantress list, this is my best tested list (among all Enchantress lists that I tested):


1 Bayou
1 Karakas
1 Serra's Sanctum
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
8 Forest
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Leafcrown Dryad
2 Helm of Obedience
1 Carpet of Flowers
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 Sphere of Safety
3 Rest in Peace
3 Solitary Confinement
4 Abundant Growth
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Toxic Deluge
3 Duress
3 Inquisition of Kozilek


Sideboard:

1 Ashen Rider
2 Golgari Charm
3 Cursed Totem
3 Seal of Primordium
3 Thoughtseize
3 Phyrexian Revoker


Good luck.
1 Sanctum makes it too easy to get blown out. No Crop Rotation or any method to fish it out either. I also really don't like the absence of a basic plains, or at least a Savannah... What is your local meta like? I'm curious. I guess not having Emrakul may be your rationalization for not having more Sanctums... Perhaps I'm just inexperienced and am missing something, which could be and is very true. Would love to have your thoughts here.

No Elephant Grass is peculiar but I'll go with your reasoning.

Also with so many fetches this deck is just BEGGING for Mirri's Guile... There's no reason not to run the maindeck standard of 3 with so many fetches. I don't think "having faith" in your draw engine as you said replaces the empirical consistency of Guile. I can't imagine not running this in Enchantress. Drawing cards is that much better with deck manipulation. You complain about drawing too many lands which leaves me to believe you don't have the faith in your draw engine that you seem to extoll. I feel like if you could cut some Abundants for this, which is a card I don't really like in Enchantress. More perplexing is how you don't take advantage of all the additional :g: Enchantments with more Sanctums but I digress...

I'm not attacking you here but I'm trying to get into your mindset and understand your choices, because this is a very unorthodox list.

[Dihensoeur]

1 Sanctum makes it too easy to get blown out. No Crop Rotation or any method to fish it out either. I also really don't like the absence of a basic plains, or at least a Savannah... What is your local meta like? I'm curious.
There are 3 colors in the deck (8 :w:, 7 :b: and 26 :g:), I still want to be robust VS Wasteland and enable to get :b: mana T1 for combo. I completely understand the power of many Sanctum, Karakas, white mana, but I need :b: mana and spells to have a real chance vs combo.deck. I manage my colored manas with Abundant Growth and utopia on basic lands. I consider that having x4 Abundant is "like having 4 additional basic plains/swamps" so I think I don't need to reduce my green mana or increase the number of non basic land for white. My meta is many DTB.deck, many old DTB.deck and few rogue.deck.



I guess not having Emrakul may be your rationalization for not having more Sanctums... Perhaps I'm just inexperienced and am missing something, which could be and is very true. Would love to have your thoughts here.

Emrakul can be a reason. But It's mainly because I don't play many white spells and so having lot of white mana can be sometimes useless and to keep the chance to have green mana in opening hand without too many non basic land.



Also with so many fetches this deck is just BEGGING for Mirri's Guile... There's no reason not to run the maindeck standard of 3 with so many fetches. I don't think "having faith" in your draw engine as you said replaces the empirical consistency of Guile. I can't imagine not running this in Enchantress. Drawing cards is that much better with deck manipulation. You complain about drawing too many lands which leaves me to believe you don't have the faith in your draw engine that you seem to extoll. I feel like if you could cut some Abundants for this, which is a card I don't really like in Enchantress. More perplexing is how you don't take advantage of all the additional :g: Enchantments with more Sanctums but I digress...
I said "having faith" in my draw engine specially because I don't want to play Mirri's Guile. The reason is that it takes 2-3 slots and doesn't "attack" the opponent (that I found missing in Enchantress). We have already 9-12 Enchantress like (Argothian, GSZ and Presence) more 8-12 enchant lands so 17-24 spells that do nothing VS the opponent. Yes we need them, but we need to be more aggressive, to more control the board and don't let the opponent does anything he want (it's my personal opinion).




I'm not attacking you here but I'm trying to get into your mindset and understand your choices, because this is a very unorthodox list.

No problem. I know this list shocks many people. I'm convinced that classic Enchantress has no chance to be competitive actually, so I tested so many splash, so many "alien" cards in order to found a solution. I studied DTB.deck and tried them to understand "why they wins and Enchantress not?", "What is missing to Enchantress ?". It's maybe stupid questions for you but for me they were crucial.

Regards,
Dihensoeur

[everial]

It seems like there's been a trend (at least with the last few lists posted) to use Wild Growth instead of Exploration. Could someone please explain why? (Or point me to an existing explanation?) Thanks!

[btm10]

It seems like there's been a trend (at least with the last few lists posted) to use Wild Growth instead of Exploration. Could someone please explain why? (Or point me to an existing explanation?) Thanks!

The reason is ramp (Growth) vs. pure acceleration (Exploration). A lot of our strength against tempo and control is our ability to overload their countermagic by dropping bomb after bomb, and that requires a lot of mana since our bombs aren't cheap. Exploration can lead to turn 2 Argothians that dodge Daze, but it doesn't lead to 5-6 mana turn 3s where you bait a counter with your second Enchantress effect and proceed to drop Confinement or your second Grove. It definitely doesn't lead to the 12+ mana turn 5s where you play 5 enchantments, draw 10 cards, and set up an inevitable turn 6 win with RiP/Helm or Words of Waste->empty their hand->Sigil or Sigil->Counter->Replenish Sigil and make 3 tokens with Elephant Grass + Guile + Growth effects. It does help with using Sanctum as a super-Black Lotus, though. I'd be interested in seeing a list that uses Exploration to make the explosiveness of multiple Sanctum activations in a single combo-like turn work better than the grindier Wild Growth/Utopia Sprawl approach. Maybe something with Courser of Kruphix for the long game?

@Dihensoeur - I think you're misunderstanding why Enchantress isn't a tier 1 deck, and what its role in a game is. It's a tier 2 deck because it has an abysmal combo matchup, though the lack of combo in the top tier right now might provide an opening for us. The other thing I think you're misunderstanding is that Enchantress is a control deck with favorable aggro and midrange matchups and ~50/50 tempo matchups. If played correctly, Enchantress has a very strong matchup in the control mirror. Miracles has to float their useful answers and wincons to use counterbalance/top since most of our spells cost 3, 4, or 5 mana, and we brick their MD Swords by not running targetable creatures and brick their Spell Pierces by being able to ramp over the taxing effect. And I'll 2-for-1 them with their own Forces all day because at the end I get to Replenish my stuff back. We don't need pressure at all against aggro, tempo, or control, and suck at applying it against combo. There are plenty of unconventional paths we might take to achieve a better combo matchup, though, and we should discuss them. Do we want to try a sideboard that starts with 4 Bayou/4 Hymn/1 Thoughtseize with the other 3 TS main? Do we want to run as GWu and board Force and Spell Pierce? Things like this fit with our game 1 plan and are broad in scope. Adding small, targetable creatures that die to common removal dilutes the game 1 strategy and offers little to no gain. Please don't take this the wrong way, because I don't want to drive people away from the Source or this thread or the deck, but perhaps your testing results are too preliminary or you just don't have enough experience with the deck to be proposing radical changes to its fundamental strategy.

[The_Dingo]

The reason is ramp (Growth) vs. pure acceleration (Exploration). A lot of our strength against tempo and control is our ability to overload their countermagic by dropping bomb after bomb, and that requires a lot of mana since our bombs aren't cheap. Exploration can lead to turn 2 Argothians that dodge Daze, but it doesn't lead to 5-6 mana turn 3s where you bait a counter with your second Enchantress effect and proceed to drop Confinement or your second Grove. It definitely doesn't lead to the 12+ mana turn 5s where you play 5 enchantments, draw 10 cards, and set up an inevitable turn 6 win with RiP/Helm or Words of Waste->empty their hand->Sigil or Sigil->Counter->Replenish Sigil and make 3 tokens with Elephant Grass + Guile + Growth effects. It does help with using Sanctum as a super-Black Lotus, though. I'd be interested in seeing a list that uses Exploration to make the explosiveness of multiple Sanctum activations in a single combo-like turn work better than the grindier Wild Growth/Utopia Sprawl approach. Maybe something with Courser of Kruphix for the long game?

@Dihensoeur - I think you're misunderstanding why Enchantress isn't a tier 1 deck, and what its role in a game is. It's a tier 2 deck because it has an abysmal combo matchup, though the lack of combo in the top tier right now might provide an opening for us. The other thing I think you're misunderstanding is that Enchantress is a control deck with favorable aggro and midrange matchups and ~50/50 tempo matchups. If played correctly, Enchantress has a very strong matchup in the control mirror. Miracles has to float their useful answers and wincons to use counterbalance/top since most of our spells cost 3, 4, or 5 mana, and we brick their MD Swords by not running targetable creatures and brick their Spell Pierces by being able to ramp over the taxing effect. And I'll 2-for-1 them with their own Forces all day because at the end I get to Replenish my stuff back. We don't need pressure at all against aggro, tempo, or control, and suck at applying it against combo. There are plenty of unconventional paths we might take to achieve a better combo matchup, though, and we should discuss them. Do we want to try a sideboard that starts with 4 Bayou/4 Hymn/1 Thoughtseize with the other 3 TS main? Do we want to run as GWu and board Force and Spell Pierce? Things like this fit with our game 1 plan and are broad in scope. Adding small, targetable creatures that die to common removal dilutes the game 1 strategy and offers little to no gain. Please don't take this the wrong way, because I don't want to drive people away from the Source or this thread or the deck, but perhaps your testing results are too preliminary or you just don't have enough experience with the deck to be proposing radical changes to its fundamental strategy.

In regards to exploration I was running 2 in my deck for a very long time. I started with 3, but hated seeing them in my opening hand because it is worse than wild growth early in the game. So I cut exploration down to 2 for a while and it worked well. Recently I cut exploration down to 1 to try some other things in that spot, and i saw it so infrequently that I feel as if 2 or 0 is the correct number. It made for some absolutely absurd turns, and I was at times able to chain multiple sanctums into an absolutely crushing position. It doesn't always work that well, but it does help a lot once the engine is online to keep the draw chain going for several more spells, which spills over to the next turn, and the next if the game goes on that long. Post board exploration was almost always the first card that I boarded out which makes me think that there are better cards for the MD.

[Dihensoeur]

@btm10:



@Dihensoeur - I think you're misunderstanding why Enchantress isn't a tier 1 deck, and what its role in a game is. It's a tier 2 deck because it has an abysmal combo matchup,
Yes, and without complete this gap, Enchantress can't be a tier 1. That was my goal with Black splash.



though the lack of combo in the top tier right now might provide an opening for us.

You forget a main thing. This is not because there is no/few combo in the top tier that you will not meet them in a big tournament. So, except if you're very lucky, you will meet combo.deck. Moreover, Enchantress is sensitive to some hate-combo that many deck have in their sideboard.



The other thing I think you're misunderstanding is that Enchantress is a control deck with favorable aggro and midrange matchups and ~50/50 tempo matchups.

In order to start a discussion about the needs to change Enchantress, Enchantress's players have to establish the real rate of matchups. Because saying 50/50 for all non-combo.deck doesn't seem to be correct. Maybe you just don't have enough experience with the deck on the actual meta. You should play the last top Enchantress deck list VS actual meta (at least 40 games per deck (20 without sideboard, 20 with sideboard)) and expose results in this thread. With your results, every body will be enable to correctly and really see where Enchantress is in the actual meta, the gap between each deck and start to work together how fill gaps.



If played correctly, Enchantress has a very strong matchup in the control mirror. Miracles has to float their useful answers and wincons to use counterbalance/top since most of our spells cost 3, 4, or 5 mana, and we brick their MD Swords by not running targetable creatures and brick their Spell Pierces by being able to ramp over the taxing effect. And I'll 2-for-1 them with their own Forces all day because at the end I get to Replenish my stuff back. We don't need pressure at all against aggro, tempo, or control, and suck at applying it against combo. There are plenty of unconventional paths we might take to achieve a better combo matchup, though, and we should discuss them. Do we want to try a sideboard that starts with 4 Bayou/4 Hymn/1 Thoughtseize with the other 3 TS main? Do we want to run as GWu and board Force and Spell Pierce? Things like this fit with our game 1 plan and are broad in scope. Adding small, targetable creatures that die to common removal dilutes the game 1 strategy and offers little to no gain. Please don't take this the wrong way, because I don't want to drive people away from the Source or this thread or the deck, but perhaps your testing results are too preliminary or you just don't have enough experience with the deck to be proposing radical changes to its fundamental strategy.
Like you, I don't want to drive people away from this thread. I just expose my personal best list, that I found fill at max the gap with actual meta, because someone asked for a B splash list, and I answered questions.
I will just continue to answer questions and I will not interfere into this thread in order to break the Enchantress fundamental strategy.

[everial]

The reason is ramp (Growth) vs. pure acceleration (Exploration). A lot of our strength against tempo and control is our ability to overload their countermagic by dropping bomb after bomb, and that requires a lot of mana since our bombs aren't cheap. Exploration can lead to turn 2 Argothians that dodge Daze, but it doesn't lead to 5-6 mana turn 3s where you bait a counter with your second Enchantress effect and proceed to drop Confinement or your second Grove. It definitely doesn't lead to the 12+ mana turn 5s where you play 5 enchantments, draw 10 cards, and set up an inevitable turn 6 win with RiP/Helm or Words of Waste->empty their hand->Sigil or Sigil->Counter->Replenish Sigil and make 3 tokens with Elephant Grass + Guile + Growth effects. It does help with using Sanctum as a super-Black Lotus, though. I'd be interested in seeing a list that uses Exploration to make the explosiveness of multiple Sanctum activations in a single combo-like turn work better than the grindier Wild Growth/Utopia Sprawl approach. Maybe something with Courser of Kruphix for the long game?


Thanks for the explanation.

[Freggle]

That was me. I still believe that. Sometimes Elves can be a problem as Mortox describes. Given the current list I'm trying it seems liek one card that can help all of these MU's is a non-enchantment Swords to Plowshares.

Swords can remove a good deal of threats from Reanimator, can potentially remove the troublesome bear in D&T, and drastically reduce the threat of BGx decks if we remove bob, or a huge goyf.

For Mortox it could also remove a large Craterhoof, or a combo creature. I hadn't tested it because it is a non-enchantment, and I did not know where to fit it in. However, after reflection I think it can be tested in the (3) Carpet of Flowers slots in the board. This was if RUG deploys an early threat we can swords it in stead of trying to power past it, and then we have a card that is functional in a lot more mu's.

Over this weekend (possibly even today) I intend to power-up the stream, and I will give that set-up a shot at least for a bit.

Hello all. I have been extremely busy in my non-Magic life as of late, but I did want to report that in spotty testing that cutting the (3) Carpet of Flowers for (3) Swords to Plowshares in the board does seem like the correct call.

Unfortunately due to my schedule these testing sessions are not long enough to fire-up the stream to do it with all of you. Having said that I'm seeing a slow down starting next week and hope to fire it up sometime then to further prove it out.

I have beat D&T with this plan, and that makes me very happy.

[th3 w1z4rd]

Here is my list that I've used for a while. Lots of auto wins against various decks. I haven't been able to test much against fast combo but I'm trying this sideboard for now. I know the 1-of Teeg is probably wrong but I haven't given it much thought lately. I know the order the cards are listed is wacky; that's because it's copied from Cockatrice. I know many people dislike Words of War but it is excellent and I would never cut it. Sacred Mesa is pretty chill for making some chump blockers and with Sanctum you can easily flood the board, especially with the new legend rule. Against many decks, Rest in Peace + Energy Field = automatic win and same goes for RIP + Web of Inertia (prevents annoying crap like Annihilator).

4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Sterling Grove
4 Elephant Grass
2 Rest in Peace
1 Energy Field
3 Solitary Confinement
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
2 Serra's Sanctum
6 Forest
2 Plains
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 Sacred Mesa
1 City of Solitude
1 Web of Inertia
1 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Windswept Heath
1 Words of War
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Arid Mesa
1 In the Eye of Chaos
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Green Sun's Zenith
SB: 2 Oblivion Ring
SB: 2 Stony Silence
SB: 1 Humility
SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 2 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 Mindbreak Trap

[octavius.lyra]

Hey guys, long time lurker here. Just wanted to chime in and throw my support behind dihensoeur though I doubt I’m brave enough to try anything that radical at this point. I sympathize with your aims and goals.

I’ve radically torn apart this deck many times in search of something better and I’m sad to say the vast majority of ‘improvements' have done little to make the deck stronger than it already was or improved upon known cards and solutions. I do think it's really important to ask if changes to deck produce something truely better then what exists. I think running more than a bare minimum of non-enchantments that aren’t cantrips in the deck significantly detracts from the synergy of the whole deck. For a period I was trying a similar line with silence effects and they tend to hurt us most in the early game where we really need to be playing enchantments to power our engine, or under solitary drawing into enchantment's to keep from stalling out. The same is generally true of artifacts. Which is not to say they can’t be run, but we should always ask ourselves if the same issue could be resolved with an enchantment.

I had a similar moment of searching for a decent enchantment creature, most of the choices seem underwhelming. The best I’ve really found if you wanted that sort of effect is Hidden Gibbons, which is still underwhelming and goes against our strategy of blanking removal. For enchantment based discard for a period I was playing with parallax nexus along side words of waste though I doubt anyone else would recommend it.

It saddens me to say it, but I’ve come to except there are just things enchantress cannot do without radically altering our fundamental game plan, i.e. locking the game, or in helm enchantress, starting our engine and resolving rip/helm. Enchantress as an archtype is a victim of the limitations of its synergy.

I have buckets of wacky idea’s about enchantress most of which I generally don’t feel comfortable sharing and opening up to public scrutiny, at some point we have to be honest why we are playing the deck we are playing or perhaps one should be running a different shell altogether. That being said, I’ve been toying with trying to find a way to run counterbalance inside the enchantress shell alongside grove, guile and e tutor =P. Case and point, perhaps I should be playing countertop ;).

Here’s my current list:

7 forests
1 plains
4 windswept heath
1 savannah
1 karakas
3 serra’s sanctum

4 wild growth
4 eutopia sprawl
2 exploration

4 argothian enchantress
4 enchantress presence
3 green sun zenith

3 mirri’s guile
3 elephant grass

3 leyline of sanctity
3 solitary confinement
2 oblivion ring
2 rest in peace
1 aura of silence

1 wheel of sun and moon
1 enlightened tutor
1 city of solitude
1 helm of obedience
1 emrakul, the eons torn

SB
1 leyline of sanctity
1 karmic justice
1 aura of silence
1 oblivion ring
1 enlightened tutor
1 choke
1 city of solitude
2 sterling grove
2 runed halo
3 suppression field
1 gaddock teeg

[lordofthepit]

Interesting new card: http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/127/754/635324223545789596.jpg

Downsides are that it casts four mana, is susceptible to both creature and enchantment removal (spot and sweepers), and doesn't allow you to draw a card if your enchantment is countered.

Upsides are that it cantrips naturally, can be fetched with GSZ, and plays ridiculously well with Replenish.

Is there a spot in the deck for this?

[The_Dingo]

Interesting new card: http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/127/754/635324223545789596.jpg

Downsides are that it casts four mana, is susceptible to both creature and enchantment removal (spot and sweepers), and doesn't allow you to draw a card if your enchantment is countered.

Upsides are that it cantrips naturally, can be fetched with GSZ, and plays ridiculously well with Replenish.

Is there a spot in the deck for this?

Interesting. Another card it plays nice with is eureka.

[sun tzu]

Interesting new card: http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/127/754/635324223545789596.jpg

Downsides are that it casts four mana, is susceptible to both creature and enchantment removal (spot and sweepers), and doesn't allow you to draw a card if your enchantment is countered.

Upsides are that it cantrips naturally, can be fetched with GSZ, and plays ridiculously well with Replenish.

Is there a spot in the deck for this?
i could see this card playing nice with replenish as a 1 of, but that 4 mana cost is very prohibitive i feel. if it was a 3 drop 1/1 it would be much much better :C

4 mana is too much because by the time you have 4 mana you should hopefully already have an enchantress effect out, or 2, and be doing meaningful things to stabilize you, not keep building more and more enchantress effects while legacy decks just.. WIN XD.

[anonymos]

I don't want it due to lack of ability to play it on turn two realistically. I don't really want to turn the deck upside down to make that happen while opening it up to their removal.

[Freggle]

Interesting new card: http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/127/754/635324223545789596.jpg

Downsides are that it casts four mana, is susceptible to both creature and enchantment removal (spot and sweepers), and doesn't allow you to draw a card if your enchantment is countered.

Upsides are that it cantrips naturally, can be fetched with GSZ, and plays ridiculously well with Replenish.

Is there a spot in the deck for this?

I agree the card is interesting, and as an enchantress player extremely exciting to see, but it is not a snap to place it in the Rest in Peace builds for the following reasons (most of them you mentioned.)

-Tempo: in Enchantress 3 mana is much different than 4 mana, and it competes for slots of 2-3 mana spells (argothian, Presence, GSZ)
-Its a Creature without shroud: blanking removal is important, unless you plan to overload removal. i.e. Opalescence, or hidden enchantments
-It does not draw on cast: This is very difficult to overcome. Drawing on cast is what makes are control MU's favorable

...at best I see it as a 1 of tutor target, but I don't even think it makes that cut because it is not draw on cast, and I personally wouldn't want to cut any of the 4 Green Sun's because they are crucial to find Teeg for the combo MU. ...at least as the deck is build currently.

Where it may work is:
-Hypothetical Commune with gods / Attunement Replenish build.
-Hypothetical Eureka build. ...actually this could be a lights out card there. (dump mega hand draw mega hand proceed on)
-Modern: Enchantress up to this point was dead in Modern (outside of auras) this may be a birthing point.

That is my inital reaction to it at least.

[Just me]

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/jou/aasd7y23m34co/VZ2R4jw0d4_EN.jpg (http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/jou/aasd7y23m34co/VZ2R4jw0d4_EN.jpg)

That seems a very nice addition to the G/W/B version (Junk enchantress?) of Dihensoeur. Its a wincondition with the mana ability (not very fast to to WB mana, but it's good enough), stall condition (lifegain) and a creature to attack with (like the Dryad in the list). Talk about sweet! More interesting as the Eidolon of Blossoms in my opinion.

[Watersaw]

Interesting new card: http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/127/754/635324223545789596.jpg

Downsides are that it casts four mana, is susceptible to both creature and enchantment removal (spot and sweepers), and doesn't allow you to draw a card if your enchantment is countered.

Upsides are that it cantrips naturally, can be fetched with GSZ, and plays ridiculously well with Replenish.

Is there a spot in the deck for this?

You know, this just made me wonder why i haven't been running 1-of Elvish Visionary for those awkward times I'm stuck with a GSZ and no enchantments in hand.

[FTW]

That 2/2 just looks too expensive. Could work with a combo-y Replenish build, but that seems bad against DRS and the RiP plan. Also just turns on their StPs in game 1. It dodges Abrupt Decay, but so does GSZ @ Argothian for 1 less mana.

Dihensoeur's list looks unorthodox and probably far from optimal, but I see merit in what he's trying to do. The implementation could probably be tweaked. But there is a fundamental weakness that makes traditional Enchantress bad in the current meta. Yeah, OK, you beat Miracles and D&T, but the rest of the tier decks don't look like better than 50/50 matchups.

Enchantress just fundamentally scoops to T1/T2 Emrakul. Solitary and Elephant Grass don't save you from them paying 2 and annihilating your board before smashing you for 15. They both stop damage from Griselbees though, so I guess the opponent has to suffice with drawing ONLY 14 cards. Seems bad. Random stuff like Tin Fins and Belcher are a nightmare. A smart ANT/TES player is probably winning unless you win the die roll and lucksack T2 Enchantress T3 Confinement. Combo sucks.

The next worst matchup, tempo, while not abysmal is tough when you have to play around counterspells while getting Lightning Bolted every turn by an unblockable blue creature. Elephant Grass is annoying, but after the first turn ends up making you spend more than they have to spend -- maybe not the best way to beat a mana denial deck. Solitary lock is the main line of defense, but that can be hard to set up through free counterspells and mana disruption and discard.

Looks like what he's trying to do is:
-gain interactivity vs combo
-buy some time against tempo
-avoid getting manabase wrecked by tempo

I see merit in that general plan, although maybe the discard package and Leafcrown Dryad are not the best ways to attain that.

This deck is called Solitaire for a reason. More than half of the deck doesn't interact with the opponent. The deck overly relies on a few enchantment lock pieces to hold off the opponent while you progressively masturbate to completion. I've managed to beat Enchantress with decks that Enchantress SHOULD beat just by exploiting the fact that it's too dependent on a few cards to interact with the opponent. Combo can mostly ignore them; tempo can do a good job of keeping them off the board. One way to combat that is to remove some durdle and add more interactivity.

So how to boost interactivity?

4 Leyline of Sanctity SB seems like a much better way to beat Liliana/edicts/discard than running targetable creatures. Also helps against some combo.
Lots of basics seems good.
As janky as it might sound, Sunspring Expedition is a 1-mana enchantment that curves into your gameplan but buys you 8 life for 1 mana. Maybe helps stabilize? Makes Tendrils and EtW somewhat harder to win with. Buys a couple timewalks against Delver/TNN, more than Elephant Grass would.
Porphyry Nodes should beat Delver, although it will probably just trade 1-for-1 with a tempo player unless they crapped out creatures on the board.
Humility SB helps against fatties, TNN, Delver and random stuff although also costs you some of your draw engine. Not sure if that's worth it. Maybe 1-2 copies.

Discard may still be a good idea.

[Freggle]

That 2/2 just looks too expensive. Could work with a combo-y Replenish build, but that seems bad against DRS and the RiP plan. Also just turns on their StPs in game 1. It dodges Abrupt Decay, but so does GSZ @ Argothian for 1 less mana.

Dihensoeur's list looks unorthodox and probably far from optimal, but I see merit in what he's trying to do. The implementation could probably be tweaked. But there is a fundamental weakness that makes traditional Enchantress bad in the current meta. Yeah, OK, you beat Miracles and D&T, but the rest of the tier decks don't look like better than 50/50 matchups.

I too am a supporter of Dihensoeur's and have been for some time. It takes a lot of testing to develop something "new." ...and this is just a step towards that.

I would be more interested in his list if he explored Dark Confidant as an independent draw engine that gets around a fair amount of enchantress hate, and works extremely well with Mirri's Guile (another card I'm skeptical of it's omission.)

Having said that I still encourage him to keep testing & tweaking.


Enchantress just fundamentally scoops to T1/T2 Emrakul. Solitary and Elephant Grass don't save you from them paying 2 and annihilating your board before smashing you for 15.

...not exactly true. Enchantress has Oblivion Ring, Karakas and build pending their own Emrakul, Sphere of Safety, or Helm of Obedience. All of which are good things to drop in off of a hasty Show and Tell or clean up post show.



They both stop damage from Griselbees though, so I guess the opponent has to suffice with drawing ONLY 14 cards. Seems bad. It's really not as bad as you make it out to be the MU is pretty even, and pending how they board favorable. Suppression Field also slows down Fetches and Grizzy activations.


Random stuff like Tin Fins and Belcher are a nightmare. A smart ANT/TES player is probably winning unless you win the die roll and lucksack T2 Enchantress T3 Confinement. Combo sucks.[/cards]

Of these the worst MU you mentioned Tin Fins is the worst, but certainly beatable. Leyline and Stony Silence, RIP, Suppression Field, o ring, Karakas, elephant grass all give them a run for their money. Maybe something like 65 / 35 Tin Fins favor.

Blecher does not like Suppression Field, Leyline, Elephant Grass, Stony Silence, an Teeg it's a coin toss 50 /50.

[QUOTE=FTW;804524]The next worst matchup, tempo, while not abysmal is tough when you have to play around counterspells while getting Lightning Bolted every turn by an unblockable blue creature. Elephant Grass is annoying, but after the first turn ends up making you spend more than they have to spend -- maybe not the best way to beat a mana denial deck. Solitary lock is the main line of defense, but that can be hard to set up through free counterspells and mana disruption and discard.

Tempo is very beatable with Elephant grass and Carpet of Flowers. I recently have dropped carpet from the board in lieu of Swords to Plowshares, and have not played the MU since the change. I would imagine if we can resolve carpet to win we could resolve swords to stall to win.


Discard may still be a good idea.

Discard is a good idea for those things. I played a BW Kor Spiritdancer deck years ago, and the main reason it could compete was because of the hand disruption. The problem is though there is an early expiry to discard and it doesn't allow you to draw. To offset this he should run Bob.

For Reference here is my current list:

4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Green Sun's

4 Wild Growth
4 utopia Sprawl

3 Mirri's Guile
3 Rest In Peace

1 Helm of Obedience
1 Emrakul

1 Seal of Primordium
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Suppression Field

4 Solitary Confinement
4 Elephant Grass

4 Serra's Sanctum
1 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas
11 Forest

Sideboard:
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Suppression Field
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Stony Silence
2 Oblivion Ring

[Fizzeler]

I have begun testing Eidolon Of Blossoms, not bad as a one of at the moment...

@Dihensoeur Why Leafcrown Dryad over say Courser Of Kruphix or Boon Satyr, because it can block Delvers or the Bestow is cheap enough that you can voltron them

[Dihensoeur]

Dihensoeur's list looks unorthodox and probably far from optimal, but I see merit in what he's trying to do. The implementation could probably be tweaked. But there is a fundamental weakness that makes traditional Enchantress bad in the current meta. Yeah, OK, you beat Miracles and D&T, but the rest of the tier decks don't look like better than 50/50 matchups.

Thanks.



I too am a supporter of Dihensoeur's and have been for some time. It takes a lot of testing to develop something "new." ...and this is just a step towards that.

Thanks.



@Dihensoeur Why Leafcrown Dryad over say Courser Of Kruphix or Boon Satyr, because it can block Delvers or the Bestow is cheap enough that you can voltron them

For me, Leafcrown Dryad is actually the best enchantment creature. Yes, it's because it can block Delvers and cost only 2. A card that cost 3 is very expensive in the Legacy world and have to be a excellent card to be played.
I already thought about Courser of Kruphix or Boon Satyr:
Courser of Kruphix: 2/4 allow us to block what ? Tarmo is often 4/5 and more with our countered enchantments, Batterskull is 4/4 and Courser can't block fly creatures.
Its ability allow us to dig a little more by playing land from top instead of from hand, but we show to opponents our top. So they know our hand every time and can prepare their strategies. If Courser allow us to play an extra land, the card would have been better.

Boon Satyr: 4/2 Flash, so die vs all creatures with 2 power and can't stop Tarmo or fly creatures. I can't see the utility in the Legacy.


About Eidolon, the card is very too expensive for me. I think that a Legacy card has to cost 0~2 manas, 3 if the card has an important impact, 4 or more if the card gives us the victory. It's a shame that the card doesn't cost 2 u_u.

Regards,
Dihensoeur.

[kingtk3]

...
For Reference here is my current list:

4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Green Sun's

4 Wild Growth
4 utopia Sprawl

3 Mirri's Guile
3 Rest In Peace

1 Helm of Obedience
1 Emrakul

1 Seal of Primordium
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Suppression Field

4 Solitary Confinement
4 Elephant Grass

4 Serra's Sanctum
1 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas
11 Forest

Sideboard:
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Suppression Field
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Stony Silence
2 Oblivion Ring

Since you are running 4 GsZ, you only have enchantress as your target and you are able to produce much mana, do you think it would be possible to include a green creature like Progenitus as a tutorable win condition?

[Freggle]

Since you are running 4 GsZ, you only have enchantress as your target and you are able to produce much mana, do you think it would be possible to include a green creature like Progenitus as a tutorable win condition?

Yes, absolutely. I talk about this in the N&D thread. The pro is Progenitus will shuffle in regardless of RIP being on the battlefield or not as it is a replacement effect. The cons are it is impossible to cast from the hand. You can get it back in the deck by discarding (be it to confinement, or just down to 7 cards)

Having said that when I compare it to Emrakul, Emrakul is just better. He re-shuffles the whole deck. If I'm in a MU where that is important (Painter, Hightide) I simply do not cast or board out RIP. Emrakul is also targetable by Karakas to go truly infinite (we can not draw out by re-shuffling GSZ's) I have won many games with this tactic. You can attack and bounce before damage to get around cards line Baleful Strix only to re-cast and get your extra turn to do it again.

Overall as wincon 2 goes Emrakul is far better than GSZ-ing for Progenitus at a negligible 4 mana difference.

[kingtk3]

Yes, absolutely. I talk about this in the N&D thread. The pro is Progenitus will shuffle in regardless of RIP being on the battlefield or not as it is a replacement effect. The cons are it is impossible to cast from the hand. You can get it back in the deck by discarding (be it to confinement, or just down to 7 cards)

Having said that when I compare it to Emrakul, Emrakul is just better. He re-shuffles the whole deck. If I'm in a MU where that is important (Painter, Hightide) I simply do not cast or board out RIP. Emrakul is also targetable by Karakas to go truly infinite (we can not draw out by re-shuffling GSZ's) I have won many games with this tactic. You can attack and bounce before damage to get around cards line Baleful Strix only to re-cast and get your extra turn to do it again.

Overall as wincon 2 goes Emrakul is far better than GSZ-ing for Progenitus at a negligible 4 mana difference.

Your considerations seem right, but I wasn't advocating of playing Progenitus instead of Emrakul, but in addition to him (it?).

I suppose that you want to have the least possible number of win condition in your deck in order to avoid drawing them when it's not necessary (ie, in the starting 7), but I also noted that you actually cannot tutor for Emrakul nor Helm: it would be nice to get value of a mid game Zenith for closing the game.

Take my points with a grain of salt though, since I haven't played the deck in a long time.

[FTW]

Of these the worst MU you mentioned Tin Fins is the worst, but certainly beatable. Leyline and Stony Silence, RIP, Suppression Field, o ring, Karakas, elephant grass all give them a run for their money. Maybe something like 65 / 35 Tin Fins favor.

Blecher does not like Suppression Field, Leyline, Elephant Grass, Stony Silence, an Teeg it's a coin toss 50 /50.


Belcher only cares about Leyline/Elephant Grass (depending on which win condition they are going for), unless they get a bad opener and try to go off as late as turn 2 on the draw without Burning Wish for Reverent Silence.

True, post-board there are a lot of answers for these problematic decks. But most enchantress lists (including yours) run few-to-none main. Traditional enchantress lists run a lot of durdle and a lot of anti-aggro main. Oblivion Rings, Leylines, Suppression Fields, Stony Silence, Teeg.. these tend to be sideboard cards. Karakas typically doesn't get played in multiples due to dependence on early green (and sometimes cost restrictions). That makes game 1 look much worse. If post-board the matches are closer to 50-50, that means on average you still expect to lose in 3 games fairly often, especially if the opponent has good SB answers.

But given how little aggro is in the top tier, that the format is more tempo and combo, maybe the main should change away from durdle and towards more copies of these interactive cards main? There's probably a way to do that while preserving the shell. Maybe black splash with discard and Confidant. Maybe with more of those white disruptive enchantments main. I guess if you're getting results that's good enough, but lack of recent SCG top 8s for Enchantress should mean something.

Instead of Progenitus, what about something castable like Sigarda, Host of Herons (also hexproof, still shutting off removal, while also shutting off edict effects on Argothians) or Terastodon or whatever? In addition to Emrakul.

[btm10]

I too am a supporter of Dihensoeur's and have been for some time. It takes a lot of testing to develop something "new." ...and this is just a step towards that.

I would be more interested in his list if he explored Dark Confidant as an independent draw engine that gets around a fair amount of enchantress hate, and works extremely well with Mirri's Guile (another card I'm skeptical of it's omission.)


I don't want to give the impression that I don't support alternative directions in building Enchantress. I completely do, I just think that Dihensoeur's approach of adding a cantripping chump blocker is a poor one.



True, post-board there are a lot of answers for these problematic decks. But most enchantress lists (including yours) run few-to-none main. Traditional enchantress lists run a lot of durdle and a lot of anti-aggro main. Oblivion Rings, Leylines, Suppression Fields, Stony Silence, Teeg.. these tend to be sideboard cards. Karakas typically doesn't get played in multiples due to dependence on early green (and sometimes cost restrictions). That makes game 1 look much worse. If post-board the matches are closer to 50-50, that means on average you still expect to lose in 3 games fairly often, especially if the opponent has good SB answers.

But given how little aggro is in the top tier, that the format is more tempo and combo, maybe the main should change away from durdle and towards more copies of these interactive cards main? There's probably a way to do that while preserving the shell. Maybe black splash with discard and Confidant. Maybe with more of those white disruptive enchantments main. I guess if you're getting results that's good enough, but lack of recent SCG top 8s for Enchantress should mean something.

Instead of Progenitus, what about something castable like Sigarda, Host of Herons (also hexproof, still shutting off removal, while also shutting off edict effects on Argothians) or Terastodon or whatever? In addition to Emrakul.

I think interactive cards are what we want in general, so redesigning to focus on improving across-the-board interaction is best.

The list of nonland things I'd keep in the maindeck from current lists (no numbers, just the cards themselves) are:

Argothian Enchantress
Enchantress's Presence
Thoughtseize
Elephant Grass
Suppression Field
Oblivion Ring or Detention Sphere
Rest in Peace
Sigil of the Empty Throne
Mirri's Guile
Sterling Grove
Wild Growth
Utopia Sprawl
Seal of Primordium/Seal of Cleansing/Aura of Silence


Cards in Current lists that I'm on the fence about:
Green Sun's Zenith
Enlightened Tutor
Replenish
Argivian Find
Solitary Confinement
OR
Sphere of Safety AND Leyline of Sanctity

Additional cards to consider:
Kiora, the Crashing Wave
Dark Confidant
Words of Waste
Words of War
Words of Wind
Energy Field
Sylvan Library
Additional Fetchlands
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Liliana of the Veil
Mind Shatter
Abrupt Decay
Swords to Plowshares

Many of these cards aren't Enchantments and so don't play well with the engine, especially if we're relying on Solitary to stay alive, so it may be time to drop it in order to be more flexible. On the other hand, we could drop the cards that stall against creatures down to lower numbers while keeping some number of Confinements and not being able to power out Enchantments as aggressively. Sylvan + Guile + additional fetchlands actually seems excellent if we're on a toolbox plan because it allows us to see up to six cards/turn (leave a fetch up, resolve guile, fetch on upkeep, then move to draw and use Sylvan). Those hesitant to cut mana-producing lands for additional fetches, can always run a one-of Riftstone Portal, I guess. In general, it may be necessary to move to a more traditional, 4 or 5 color list (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=11801.0) in order to keep up.

[Scott]

I don't know how big the tournament was, but this list (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=64764) got 8th in a SCG Super Invitational Qualifier in Connecticut a month ago.


// Creatures
4 Argothian Enchantress
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

// Enchantments
1 Blind Obedience
1 Blood Moon
1 City of Solitude
4 Elephant Grass
4 Enchantress's Presence
1 Humility
1 Moat
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Runed Halo
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
3 Solitary Confinement
4 Sterling Grove
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
1 Words of War

// Instants
1 Crop Rotation
1 Enlightened Tutor

// Sorceries
1 Replenish

// Lands
5 Forest
3 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Savannah
1 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas
2 Serra's Sanctum


// Sideboard
SB: 1 Helm of Obedience
SB: 1 Blind Obedience
SB: 1 City of Solitude
SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 1 Oblivion Ring
SB: 3 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Rule of Law
SB: 1 Stony Silence
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Replenish

[Freggle]

You are correct in saying that Enchantress should be as interactive as possible to achieve advantage, however I don’t feel currently that Enchantress has to adopt a 3rd or a 4th color out of GW to do so.

I think with the right mix of cards Enchantress can be as effective in creating a prison like game state on the order of Death & Taxes with a combo-eque explosiveness of Elves.

My list was started at the spoiling of RTR, and has morphed from there. The list was set-up to be U control and tempo which were dominating at the time. Since then BUG, BURG, and Jund all came onto the scene. I have made adjustments to “answer” those decks but I never reflected and gone back to the drawing board to see if there is a better overall way to attack the meta.

In doing so I have contemplated over the last month is RIP / Helm is even needed? I would say that in the games I have plated RIP / Helm is boarded out over games 2 & 3 over a majority of the time. This is done to hit the critical mass of hate over those games. I have no issue making this call since Emrakul is so difficult to deal with in it’s entirety given he shuffles into the deck if in the grave. I know there are cards that can be used when his shuffle effect is on the stack, but frankly decks fighting piles of targeted hate, fighting the engine, and fighting to win afford those cards? More often than not the answer is no. Therefore, I have been a huge proponent for Helm / RIP, but is it right for this meta? …I don’t know.

The bare bones of Enchantress that I want to build today is as follows :
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
4 Enchantress’s Presence
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
3 Elephant Grass
3 Solitary Confinement
1 Emrakul
3 Mirri’s Guile
21 Land

That Equals 51 cards. 51 out of 75 leaves 24 cards to hate with. The real question is what should those 24 cards be to hate properly? If you don’t run RIP / Helm then you can run Replenish a card that can certainly swing any BGx MU

According to the Source the current DTB’s are:
Deathblade
Team America
UWR Delver
Miracle Control
Jund
Sneak and Show
Using that as your basis these are the other 24 cards you would want
3 Suppression Field
1 Elephant Grass
1 Solitary Confinement
2 Replenish
2 Carpet of Flowers
4 Oblivion Ring
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Stony Silence
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Leyline of Sanctity

To make the following list:
MD:
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Enchantress's Presence

1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth

4 Elephant Grass
3 Mirri's Guile
3 Suppression Field
2 Oblivion Ring
4 Solitary Confienement

2 Replenish

2 Karakas
4 Serra's Sanctum
1 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
10 Forest


Board:
3 Stony Silence
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Gaddock Teeg


That list should be resilient enough to slog through that line-up and have plenty of trick up it’s sleeve for the other trick MU’s
Some additional cards to consider:
Mindbreak Trap – If you truly fear combo
Exploration – As a 2 of tops to be more explosive / punishing when we start to go off.
Aura of Silence – If it wasn’t WW I’d probably squeeze one in.

Reminders:
Green Sun’s Shuffles for a G don’t be afraid to do so.
GSZ + Emrakul + Karakas + 15 mana = win It’s pretty easy to do.

@Enchantress and T8’s – Enchantress isn’t represented much period, as it is a niche deck that does not overlap the format as far as cards for investment. T8’s are a combo of luck percentages and player skill and Enchantress just isn’t played in the percentages to see it regularly T8 a SCG, however the deck is powerful enough to make it there. How many RUG / SNT / Delver lists register and never hit the T8? When is the last time you saw a Belcher deck hit the T8? I know is prior to the last Enchantress, but it is cheaper and represented more.

I play a list like that if not that over the next couple days and see how it does. Also, I’m till trying to find the proper time to fire-up the stream.

[Esper3k]

You can't GSZ for Emrakul... he's not green.

[Freggle]

You can't GSZ for Emrakul... he's not green.

I don't I draw Emrakul naturally. The GSZ was added to the "combo" becuase you need a card to draw for each of your extra turns. Casting GSZ places it back in your deck then you draw it again and you cast it again. Repeat. So I guess you need 16 mana if you go that route. Still pretty easy.

[Esper3k]

I don't I draw Emrakul naturally. The GSZ was added to the "combo" becuase you need a card to draw for each of your extra turns. Casting GSZ places it back in your deck then you draw it again and you cast it again. Repeat. So I guess you need 16 mana if you go that route. Still pretty easy.

Ok, your line of "GSZ + Emrakul + Karakas + 15 mana = win" made it sound like you were trying to GSZ for Emrakul.

Also, why would you need GSZ if you've already gotten Emrakul + Karakas going? The likelihood of you having 0 cards in your library (which is why I'm assuming you're shuffling GSZ back in continually) is extremely low.

[Freggle]

Ok, your line of "GSZ + Emrakul + Karakas + 15 mana = win" made it sound like you were trying to GSZ for Emrakul.

Also, why would you need GSZ if you've already gotten Emrakul + Karakas going? The likelihood of you having 0 cards in your library (which is why I'm assuming you're shuffling GSZ back in continually) is extremely low.

Without it you're not truly infinite. ...and playing this deck a lot it happens more than you would think, but many times Solitary Confinement's clause of not drawing will get you enough turns before you have to rely on GSZ shenanigans.

[Mewens]

Traditional enchantress lists run a lot of durdle and a lot of anti-aggro main. ... But given how little aggro is in the top tier, that the format is more tempo and combo, maybe the main should change away from durdle and towards more copies of these interactive cards main?

This has been my thinking of late, too. I don't play nearly as much as Freggle – probably not as much as anyone in this thread, really – but I've been unsatisfied with the deck's heavy reliance on its draw engines for a very long time. I've slowly been moving to more self-sufficient cards and been thinking of my enchantresses as multi-turn Glimpse of Natures rather than as engines, per se; my thoughts (and choices) on the matter are still evolving, but I'm finding that I'm playing a much more control-focused game.

I'm running:
2x Runed Halo (this has been the biggest change, as it buttresses your other defensive tactics, such as Solitary Confinement, allowing you to avoid going all-in on one protection spell ... even if its casting cost wrenches the deck heavily toward white)
2x Oblivion Ring
1x Seal of Cleansing
1x Rest in Peace
1x Back to Basics

and 0-1 of each of the following, depending on what I'm expecting and my mood (I usually have 2 flex spots for these):
Suppression Field
Story Circle (have yet to actually resolve this one, so no word on how good it is yet)
Stony Silence
Rest in Peace (as in, No. 2 MD)

I've pared back MD Elephant Grass and Solitary Confinement (though I've yet to go below 4 of each in the 75), because, if you don't have significant on-board support, they're situational stall tactics. Similarly, I've been playing around with Exploration, Holistic Wisdom and Abundant Growth over Mirri's Guile; while MG is amazing in the first 2 or 3 turns, it's often irrelevant once you've got a pair of enchantresses on the field. Deck has enough dead cards already. I'm not thrilled with the results so far, however.

I also run 4x Enlightened Tutor main. I don't run Green Sun's Zenith; I'm rarely happy when I see that 3rd enchantress, and that's with just 8 maindeck. Problem's compounded with so many ways to kill shrouded x/1s running around (GOLGARI CHARM /shake fist). I've also found that my combo matchups aren't as bad (though they're still not good); 4 ET + 2 Runed Halo + 2-3 Solitary Confinement means I have a chance to get some shields up against Storm in game 1. Ditto on O-Rings vs. SnT.

What I'm trying to do is reduce the deck's reliance on enchantresses by increasing the deck's overall card quality and adding more traditional card draw. (I'm going to be tinkering around with Commune with the Gods and Insight of Kruphix next; I really, really hate drawing more than a few enchantresses.)

As to the black splash: I think it's worth exploring. Bitterblossom is strong, both offensively and defensively (and it's one more reason to run a miser's Intangible Virtue). The upcoming constellation giant, the 5-drop enchantment creature that gives opponent's duders -1/-1, holds some promise. There's at least 3 enchantment-based discard spells you can shoehorn in from the color. You get Dread of Night for DnT out of the board. And you still have Utopia Sprawl and Abundant Growth to make splashing a color painless. Hell, if you wanna be a hipster, you can rock Oubliettes instead of O-Rings; it's not like Omniscience was gonna pass priority with that trigger on the stack anyway.

[btm10]

You are correct in saying that Enchantress should be as interactive as possible to achieve advantage, however I don’t feel currently that Enchantress has to adopt a 3rd or a 4th color out of GW to do so.

I think with the right mix of cards Enchantress can be as effective in creating a prison like game state on the order of Death & Taxes with a combo-eque explosiveness of Elves.

My list was started at the spoiling of RTR, and has morphed from there. The list was set-up to be U control and tempo which were dominating at the time. Since then BUG, BURG, and Jund all came onto the scene. I have made adjustments to “answer” those decks but I never reflected and gone back to the drawing board to see if there is a better overall way to attack the meta.

In doing so I have contemplated over the last month is RIP / Helm is even needed? I would say that in the games I have plated RIP / Helm is boarded out over games 2 & 3 over a majority of the time. This is done to hit the critical mass of hate over those games. I have no issue making this call since Emrakul is so difficult to deal with in it’s entirety given he shuffles into the deck if in the grave. I know there are cards that can be used when his shuffle effect is on the stack, but frankly decks fighting piles of targeted hate, fighting the engine, and fighting to win afford those cards? More often than not the answer is no. Therefore, I have been a huge proponent for Helm / RIP, but is it right for this meta? …I don’t know.


I guess this is where we differ. I'm not sure which splash(es) are the ones I want yet - Blood Moon is just free wins, but there power level of blue and black cards is higher overall - but I definitely want more than just what GW has to offer because I think that the prison strategy with explosive combo-ish kill doesn't quite get us to where we want to be, which is to have game against the top tier as a whole and getting there ourselves. By running additional colors we get to be a Jund-like board control strategy with better card advantage. I think that dedicating more that two MD slots to RiP/Helm is wrong, but I don't know if I want to drop the combo kill entirely because it is a way to "win now", which the deck lacks otherwise. I definitely think that Replenish + Swords is where we want to be for the long game.

That being said, I think that if you're going to go all-in on ramping into Emrakul, especially infinite Emrakul + Karakas, we're really just a 12-post variant with a different way of stalling until we can drop the Eldrazi.

If we're talking about more of an aggro plan, Atheros, God of Passage (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27872-JOU-Journey-into-Nyx-Spoiler-discussion/page11&p=805430#post805430) might be worth looking at. It does require us to focus on white enchantments, but most of our key enchantments are white anyway. It's on color if we're splashing black, and he presents a real clock once he turns on. The ability isn't bad either, because he protects Enchantresses from Golgari Charm and Liliana. He's also Replenishable.



@Enchantress and T8’s – Enchantress isn’t represented much period, as it is a niche deck that does not overlap the format as far as cards for investment. T8’s are a combo of luck percentages and player skill and Enchantress just isn’t played in the percentages to see it regularly T8 a SCG, however the deck is powerful enough to make it there. How many RUG / SNT / Delver lists register and never hit the T8? When is the last time you saw a Belcher deck hit the T8? I know is prior to the last Enchantress, but it is cheaper and represented more.


I (mostly) agree, but while the deck is well positioned, it has a few glaring deficiencies that hurt the odds of it top 8'ing. Aside from the small number of players, those who are playing it need to dodge fast combo or get somewhat lucky against it, and to play very tightly against BUG/TA variants. I do think these matchups are about even, but I have seen people who have recently picked the deck up walking into TNN hate and getting unnecessarily 2-for-1'ed or not playing conservatively enough around Abrupt Decay. Unfortunately, we can't get paired against Stone/Deathblade and Miracles all day.

[sun tzu]

http://www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/journey-into-nyx/22391-brain-maggot

this would fit well into a black build :O

[MGB]

Kruphix's Insight from the new set seems incredibly good in here. Scry 6 and draw 3? Yes please!

[btm10]

It's definitely worth testing. I'm not sure if it's better than Commune with the Gods, though.

[GoldenCid]

They are good only if we run replenish

Enviado desde mi XT890 mediante Tapatalk

[FTW]

Fixed


They are good only if never.

[GoldenCid]

True :)

Enviado desde mi XT890 mediante Tapatalk

[btm10]

I'm not convinced that either is optimal. But Replenish is definitely better than not-Replenish right now, and Commune feeds Replenish while digging for answers and Argothians. It's worth testing.

[Opax]

After new ruling about legend, anyone have tested the 3rd of sanctuary??


Opa

[Scott]

Enchantress Deck Tech from today's Detroit SCG Open

http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/deck_tech_enchantress_with_mic.html

[Freggle]

After new ruling about legend, anyone have tested the 3rd of sanctuary??


Opa

Yes, and many of us are up to 4.


Kruphix's Insight from the new set seems incredibly good in here. Scry 6 and draw 3? Yes please!
http://cdn.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Kruphixs-Insight-Journey-into-Nyx-Spoiler.jpg

This card it tough to evaluate. It is not exactly scry since the cards go the grave. IT does help "fatten" the yard for Replenish so long that you have enchantments in the top 6 that you don't want to go to our hand (up to 3.)

I think it's greater strength is it is a non-draw "draw" card. That can help find answers for things like Spirit of the Labyrinth or Notion Thief, Lilliana while clearing the top 3 for a fresh Guile the following turn which is fairly powerful. Having said that it is going to take testing to prove it's value or non-value. ...and it is only as strong as the supporting cast.

I am not a fan of the fact that it can not stop a Replenish / Argothian Enchantress or Green Sun's from going to the yard from the top 6.

The card I am super excited about is Banishing Light.
http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/jou/aasd7y23m34co/IFNqbcqrHT_EN.jpg

Aside from the cool art it's a "fixed" O-ring. This one you can do less tricks with (like removing the O-ring while the initial trigger is on the stack to permanently exile a permanent), however it's a new name card that you can now run main without hesitation. I was always reluctant on the number of O rings main becuase some people do not play permanents and it was a dead enchantment or I would have to exile one of my own. Now it reads "opponent controls" therefore if my opponent has nothing in play but I just want to use it as a draw / ramp (sanctum) I can with no drawback as the trigger will just fizzle. There is also an added bonus in that is a uniquely named spell that can give Meddling Mages a run for their money if you run a split between the two (Bansihing Light & O Ring).

[1mpulse]

Enchantress Deck Tech from today's Detroit SCG Open

http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/deck_tech_enchantress_with_mic.html

That's me! Too bad they don't show the cards anymore though, the deck is all foil (except for that Pithing Needle...).

Too bad the wheels fell off though. Ended up losing to Esper Deathblade (Thoughseizes, counterspells (with actual Counterspells!) and Meddling Mages), RUG Delver (Mull to 5 game 1 on the play, weak Guiles in game two and he played Spell Snares over Spell Peirce) and a generic UWR Delver deck.

Had a great time though. Lots of people reading enchantments and such. I don't think I'll try Enchantress again at Open again until Meddling Mage goes away. It's just one hate card too much I feel.

[Kulta]

It might be a bit early to tell but it seems that the enchantment matters block did not actually add anything to the enchantment based deck in legacy. That being said, there are some cards that do have my interest and I feel are worth testing. Nyx weaver seems like it might make an interesting addition, it blocks delver and feeds the yard for replenish while getting replenish back from it.
Grim guardian could also fit within such a shell as a win-con/horned turtle that interacts favorably with replenish.
The problem with this route is that it turns enchantress in a full on graveyard deck of which there are already so many (better) ones running around.

Non of the gods truly appeal to me, which saddens me, the only interesting passive is on the r/u one as it combo's nicely with Guile, but its cost and color prohibit any real consideration. If however constellation turns out to be a thing we want, Heliod might be an interesting inclusion. The rest of the gods are just semi big beat-sticks with mostly useless passives.

As it stands, I like the stock up on hate, build pillow fortress and win with Emrakul/Helm+RIP once inevitability is reached style of playing that it started out as.

[MGB]

You've got to start testing the new draw spell. Seriously, in a mostly enchantment deck it will draw 3 and fill the graveyard for Replenish for only 2G. I'd play 4 of these in every enchantress deck.

[redesign1991]

Hi Guys!

I recently started playing Legacy because I was invited to an event in my local store. Before that, I always played Casual Multiplayer. Since I already had an Enchantress deck for my MP games and it was the only thing that came close to something worthwhile to playing Legacy (since I don't really own any of the other Legacy cards) I decided to bring that along for making my first steps into the format.

I've always enjoyed playing Enchantress and ever since I started playing Legacy, I've started to enjoy it even more. Of course my deck still needs some improvement since I'm converting it from MP to SP. I guess it's fair to say that it already improved quite a bit since my first Legacy game and the only thing holding me back is money, so I'm assembling pieces whenever I can.

Here's what I'm currently working with:


1 Crop Rotation
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Green Sun's Zenith

1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Argothian Enchantress

1 Exploration
1 Mirri's Guile
4 Elephant Grass
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Sterling Grove
3 Rest in Peace
4 Enchantress's Presence
3 Solitary Confinement
1 Oblivion Ring

2 Helm of Obedience

2 Windswept Heath
2 Serra's Sanctum
2 Savannah
3 Plains
11 Forest


In comparison to the 1st time I played Legacy, I was able to get the following cards as improvements:

2 Windswept Heath, 2 Savannah, 1 Helm of Obedience, 1 Rest in Peace, 1 Exploration, 1 Mirri's Guile. I should be able to get my hands on the 3th Heath next friday.

Last time I played with a similar build, which still included Sigil of the Empty Throne. I'm still pretty unsure about leaving it in or out, because so far I haven't really had any benefits over the course of 7 games. Decided to try Crop Rotation at the moment.

Which one would be better to run in the RIP/Helm version: GSZ or Living Wish?

About the SB, I don't really have a proper sideboard. I have like 6 cards in it that are worthwhile and other spots I'm filling up with other cards since I don't have any Leylines, Gaddock/Ethersworn,... yet.

I'd like to get some feedback on the maindeck to see where the next investment(s) should be made (apart from the manabase). I'm also doubting about the Groves. I like them a lot but it looks like a lot of people are cutting those down.

Another thing I'd like to ask is, I've seen people playing Stony Silence in the SB of RIP/Helm. But that shuts down our own combo. So what's the game plan then?

[Rad_Fishy]

Has anybody tried an Exploration version with Courser of Kruphix?

[nedleeds]

Has anybody tried an Exploration version with Courser of Kruphix?

I play 3 Explorations in my Enchantress and was planning on making a few changes next time I run it, swapping out O-rings for Banishing Light(s) and putting a Courser in ... maybe adding a couple of GSZs. I don't like GSZ when the only target is enchantress, this guy could be a shrouded 2/4 blocker/explorer ... I also play 3 Guile and he seems fine with it.

[Rad_Fishy]

Can I see your list?

[korfits]

Hey. I'm new on this thread. and new to the enchantress deck. But I would love to se the decklist with courser of kruphix. I don't really know where to start on the enchantress deck. So I wanna se as many decks as possible. The BG list all so seems nice.

[Freggle]

Hey. I'm new on this thread. and new to the enchantress deck. But I would love to se the decklist with courser of kruphix. I don't really know where to start on the enchantress deck. So I wanna se as many decks as possible. The BG list all so seems nice.

I am also very interested in a list containing Courser of Kruphix. At first glance I didn't make much of it, but watching it in action on the Pro Tour this last weekend my eyes were opened.

It has the potential to fit well in enchantress as a 1-2 of because:

- It is Green
- It is an enchantment
- It helps with ramp
- Can be dropped as early as T2
- The fact that the top card is shown is not that great of a draw back given the draw power, and deck manipulation of Enchantress is too high for that game information loss to matter in most cases.

Special Boons:

-Can be GSZ'ed for
-Works absurdly well with Mirri's Guile
- Out of Bolt Range
- Can block 3 power or less dudes (Thalia! [shakes fist])
- Can be sac-ed to edicts (in lieu of Argothians)


The set does show some seemingly inconspicuous cards that can play a decent role in Enchantress's development. Namely Kruphix's Insight, Banishing Light, and Courser.

Testing and time will tell. I'd like to get back on the horse and be on the cutting edge of this development, but currently I simply don't have the time for it.

Soon though, soon.

[korfits]

You really think that it's not a problem that the opponant sees all your draws? Against a control matchup it could be hard to deal with. He would know exactly what to counter.
But the exploration would be a nice with the courser.
If you run with 1-2 courser would 3-4 sterling grove then be a must?

[Freggle]

You really think that it's not a problem that the opponent sees all your draws? Against a control matchup it could be hard to deal with. He would know exactly what to counter.
But the exploration would be a nice with the courser.
If you run with 1-2 courser would 3-4 sterling grove then be a must?

No I don't. The engine will typically out threat their defense. This is why I wouldn't cut any Green Sun's, Agothians, Pressences, or now Kuphix's Insights.

I tested it a bit last night and overall it's very good, but in my opinion not what the deck needs. I never felt like GSZing for it was correct, and when in hand there was better things to do. So I quickly cut it.

Kruphix's Insight, and Banishing Light are powerhouses. Insight was a non-draw "draw" 3 for 3 mana about 75% of the time. It helped me dig into the last remaining Banishing Light when facing down a Notion Thief (yes that really did happen.) It was never less than a draw two. It doesn't in my mind replace any of the 4 Green suns, 3 Guiles, 4 Argothians, or 4 Presences though because it does not match their tempo. It is a nice get out of jail free card though. The card is really good at digging you out of mulligans, and or when facing down hand / draw disruption.

I was a sceptic turned fan.

[nedleeds]

You really think that it's not a problem that the opponant sees all your draws? Against a control matchup it could be hard to deal with. He would know exactly what to counter.
But the exploration would be a nice with the courser.
If you run with 1-2 courser would 3-4 sterling grove then be a must?

You counter the enchantress effects. If you don't know that then you haven't played control vs. enchantress much.

[wsurugby10]

Are there any good Junk Enchantress builds out there or is the thought you're just watering down the Original better version?

[Watersaw]

Hey all, I've only posted like once here before but I've been lurking the thread for a while. Anyway, I went to the SCG Open in Somerset yesterday and came 125th. Not too great, but I figure I'd post my deck and stuff anyway.

So here's the pile I was playing:
4 Argothian Enchantress
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

1 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Crop Rotation
4 Kruphix's Insight
1 Replenish

3 Mirri's Guile
3 Abundant Growth
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Elephant Grass
2 Rest in Peace
4 Enchantress's Presence
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne

2 Helm of Obediance

1 Karakas
2 Plains
3 Serra's Sanctum
4 Windswept Heath
10 Forest

With special guest stars:
1 Replenish
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Blind Obedience
4 Oblivion Ring
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Sphere of Safety

Explanation: I wanted to try a build with no Solitary Confinement or Sterling Grove. The logic being that unless your opponent has the absolute nuts game 1, a true lock is unnecessary to win. You only need to be able to stall for 2ish turns. The first game you play a more focused combo-oriented line, game 2 you side out unnecessary win conditions, Abundant Growths, and sometimes an enchantress or 2 to make way for relevant hate/protection. Most games I brought in Carpet I took out all 4 Wild Growths.

So what did we learn?
Sigil of the Empty Throne is amazing and I'm an idiot for not running it before. It was my single best win condition yesterday. But we probably don't need more than one. Kruphix's Insight is boss as hell. 3 mana draw 3 is pretty good. Carpet of Flowers is really good. I guess that goes without saying. Sphere of Safety never actually got cast, either because I had better lines of play or I just didn't draw it. One of GSZ is okay, but I wound up siding it out to make room for protection. Unsure whether or not that was the right call, but it paid off most of the time. Blind Obedience came in for exactly one match (Sneak and Show) and I didn't draw it. Crop Rotation is incredibly powerful but can also just kill you, either by getting countered or taking up a slot that could be an enchantment/tress. Helm of Obedience wasn't that good, but RIP was alright.

There's really no reason for Oblivion Ring instead of Banishing Light. Unless you're trying to get tricksey against Pernicious Deed. Speaking of, the deck really needs something for mass removal a-la Pernicious Deed. Replenish is good for this of course, possibly Karmic Justice if you really need it.

The deck dies pretty hard to Chalice of the Void and Ethersworn Cannonist. Remember to board in some number of Banishing Light/Seal of Primordium if you suspect they have it. I didn't run into any, but there were a few Notion Thieves in BUG sideboards. Watch out out there. All planeswalkers are really good against us.

For whatever reason, no one had sideboard graveyard hate and there were like a million elf decks. I'm not sure what that means but I thought it was worth noting.

So where do I go from here?
A build like this probably isn't ideal with only 4 Elephant Grass. Considering moving some number of Oblivion Ring to the main or sucking it up and putting Confinement back in. Unless there's another 1-2 mana stalling enchantment somewhere out there. Hell, as janky as it sounds Oppressive Rays might work. I had done some light testing with Aegis of the Gods and it seemed alright. Courser of Kruphix certainly sounds interesting, I might have to try that out. Considering adding a third Plains.

[Bertrand Hustle]

Hey all, I've only posted like once here before but I've been lurking the thread for a while. Anyway, I went to the SCG Open in Somerset yesterday and came 125th. Not too great, but I figure I'd post my deck and stuff anyway.

So here's the pile I was playing:
4 Argothian Enchantress
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

1 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Crop Rotation
4 Kruphix's Insight
1 Replenish

3 Mirri's Guile
3 Abundant Growth
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Elephant Grass
2 Rest in Peace
4 Enchantress's Presence
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne

2 Helm of Obediance

1 Karakas
2 Plains
3 Serra's Sanctum
4 Windswept Heath
10 Forest

With special guest stars:
1 Replenish
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Blind Obedience
4 Oblivion Ring
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Sphere of Safety

Explanation: I wanted to try a build with no Solitary Confinement or Sterling Grove. The logic being that unless your opponent has the absolute nuts game 1, a true lock is unnecessary to win. You only need to be able to stall for 2ish turns. The first game you play a more focused combo-oriented line, game 2 you side out unnecessary win conditions, Abundant Growths, and sometimes an enchantress or 2 to make way for relevant hate/protection. Most games I brought in Carpet I took out all 4 Wild Growths.

So what did we learn?
Sigil of the Empty Throne is amazing and I'm an idiot for not running it before. It was my single best win condition yesterday. But we probably don't need more than one. Kruphix's Insight is boss as hell. 3 mana draw 3 is pretty good. Carpet of Flowers is really good. I guess that goes without saying. Sphere of Safety never actually got cast, either because I had better lines of play or I just didn't draw it. One of GSZ is okay, but I wound up siding it out to make room for protection. Unsure whether or not that was the right call, but it paid off most of the time. Blind Obedience came in for exactly one match (Sneak and Show) and I didn't draw it. Crop Rotation is incredibly powerful but can also just kill you, either by getting countered or taking up a slot that could be an enchantment/tress. Helm of Obedience wasn't that good, but RIP was alright.

There's really no reason for Oblivion Ring instead of Banishing Light. Unless you're trying to get tricksey against Pernicious Deed. Speaking of, the deck really needs something for mass removal a-la Pernicious Deed. Replenish is good for this of course, possibly Karmic Justice if you really need it.

The deck dies pretty hard to Chalice of the Void and Ethersworn Cannonist. Remember to board in some number of Banishing Light/Seal of Primordium if you suspect they have it. I didn't run into any, but there were a few Notion Thieves in BUG sideboards. Watch out out there. All planeswalkers are really good against us.

For whatever reason, no one had sideboard graveyard hate and there were like a million elf decks. I'm not sure what that means but I thought it was worth noting.

So where do I go from here?
A build like this probably isn't ideal with only 4 Elephant Grass. Considering moving some number of Oblivion Ring to the main or sucking it up and putting Confinement back in. Unless there's another 1-2 mana stalling enchantment somewhere out there. Hell, as janky as it sounds Oppressive Rays might work. I had done some light testing with Aegis of the Gods and it seemed alright. Courser of Kruphix certainly sounds interesting, I might have to try that out. Considering adding a third Plains.
Thanks for the report! Good to see others still pushing the deck. I personally like 3 Sanctum more than 4 as well, but I'm curious about your rationale. Also wondering about 1 GSZ: Did you feel as though your keeps were significantly less consistent?

[Watersaw]

Thanks for the report! Good to see others still pushing the deck. I personally like 3 Sanctum more than 4 as well, but I'm curious about your rationale. Also wondering about 1 GSZ: Did you feel as though your keeps were significantly less consistent?

No problem! I had typed up a match-by-match report but it was about a year long. I can still post it if anyone wants.

Wasteland and Blood Moon scare me. And with 11 land auras in the deck you really feel those Sinkholes (okay, so 3 of them are just 1 mana draw X). Plus Crop Rotation lets me find them whenever. Now if i end up cutting rotation? I really don't know. The fourth copy would help with consistency, but if you're losing to a Wasted Sanctum it's within the first few turns. So I feel three is a safer number overall.

In regards to Zenith, I wanted to run Kruphix's Insight, but cutting much deeper into my enchantment count was unreasonable. Not only would it weaken the deck overall, but the card i was trying to make room for would suffer! Zenith seemed like the right cut, Insight costs the same, gets you the cards now, doesn't require any other investment, and doesn't die to the same True-Name Nemesis removal that everyone has. I really didn't like running it to begin with. If I had to I would rank it the weakest of our playable enchantress effects pre-Nyx. Kept the one as Argothian number 5, because 13 is better than 12. I think.

Speaking of Nyx, I tested Eidolon of Blossoms a little and found it pretty winmore in any situation that didn't involve Replenish. And any time we don't just win with Replenish the game is a lost cause anyway. I do like that it dodges Zealous Persecution and Golgari Charm (kinda). And that it forces them to Deed for one more point (again, kinda. They can just -1 their Jace and crack on 3). But it was just too damn slow.

I really wanted to run Suppression Field as a catch-all stall, but just couldn't find space.

[Bertrand Hustle]

No problem! I had typed up a match-by-match report but it was about a year long. I can still post it if anyone wants.

Wasteland and Blood Moon scare me. And with 11 land auras in the deck you really feel those Sinkholes (okay, so 3 of them are just 1 mana draw X). Plus Crop Rotation lets me find them whenever. Now if i end up cutting rotation? I really don't know. The fourth copy would help with consistency, but if you're losing to a Wasted Sanctum it's within the first few turns. So I feel three is a safer number overall.

In regards to Zenith, I wanted to run Kruphix's Insight, but cutting much deeper into my enchantment count was unreasonable. Not only would it weaken the deck overall, but the card i was trying to make room for would suffer! Zenith seemed like the right cut, Insight costs the same, gets you the cards now, doesn't require any other investment, and doesn't die to the same True-Name Nemesis removal that everyone has. I really didn't like running it to begin with. If I had to I would rank it the weakest of our playable enchantress effects pre-Nyx. Kept the one as Argothian number 5, because 13 is better than 12. I think.

Speaking of Nyx, I tested Eidolon of Blossoms a little and found it pretty winmore in any situation that didn't involve Replenish. And any time we don't just win with Replenish the game is a lost cause anyway. I do like that it dodges Zealous Persecution and Golgari Charm (kinda). And that it forces them to Deed for one more point (again, kinda. They can just -1 their Jace and crack on 3). But it was just too damn slow.

I really wanted to run Suppression Field as a catch-all stall, but just couldn't find space.

I think I'm happy with Crop Rotation at 1 for now. I can see why you would want more though.


I'll have to try Kruphix's Insight tonight/tomorrow and see how I like it. Feels like it could be a powerhouse.

I think Suppressive Enchantress is really powerful but I'm not sure I want to actually make the necessary cuts to run the deck like that either. The deck's shell is already pretty big and without much room for additions or cuts really.

[madmen420]

How can you play replenish with rest in peace doesn't that contradic each other

[btm10]

You have to play them strategically, as they're good at different times and in different matchups. Replenish is good against decks like Jund or Team America that attack your hand and can either counter or destroy your Enchantments, while RiP is best against RUG or other decks that rely on the graveyard, or in situations where you need to win quickly.

[Freggle]

Here is what I have been testing lately:

4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Green Sun's

4 Wild Growth
4 utopia Sprawl

3 Mirri's Guile
3 Rest In Peace

1 Helm of Obedience
1 Emrakul

2 Kruphix's Insight

1 Banishing Light
2 Suppression Field

3 Solitary Confinement
3 Elephant Grass

4 Serra's Sanctum
1 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas
11 Forest

Sideboard:
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Banishing Light
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Stony Silence
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Harmonic Sliver


The deck is solid at roughly a 75% win percentage in tournament practice on MTGO. It's not what I would call optimal however. I miss the 3rd Suppression Field main (sometimes that card just wins games all on it's own) & Kruphix's Insight is good but maybe only a one main (with more in board possibly.) So i'll likely make that switch.

Harmonic Sliver has been good at turning stale Green Suns into a good artifact / enchantment killer. i.e. Counterbalance, Spirit of the Labyrinth or Ensnaring Bridge...

Swords in the board continues to do a lot of work buying time vs tempo or clearing hate bears or fatties from D&T / Miracles or Reanimator.

Wish I had access to a 4th RIP. When its good you want it fast may cut a board Banishing Light for it.

For anyone making a UG or GWu list have you tested Shardless Agent or Ardent Plea? Since Cascade is cast it might be fun to hit an enchantment off of either one for draw / value.

[wsurugby10]

I love the idea of Cascading into an enchainment. I'll try to test it out but would love to hear what others find out too.

[btm10]

I feel like the cascade plan is a little too cute. I've finally come around to the GSZ plan, but I do think you want more than just Argothians as your targets. This is my current list, and I've been very happy with it:

Creatures
4 Argothian Enchantress
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Vexing Shusher

Other Non-Enchantment
2 Replenish
1 Helm of Obedience
4 Green Sun's Zenith

Enchantments
3 Elephant Grass
3 Mirri's Guile
3 Wild Growth
3 Utopia Sprawl
2 Banishing Light
2 Exploration
2 Solitary Confinement
1 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Rest in Peace
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne


Land
8 Forest
3 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Savannah
2 Serra's Sanctum
1 Karakas

Sideboard
3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Choke
2 Rest in Peace
1 Stony Silence
1 Karmic Justice
2 Suppression Field
2 Banishing Light
1 Gaddock Teeg

Courser has been excellent in Tempo matchups and offers additional creatures to sacrifice to Liliana as well as a way of removing her or another Planeswalker without resorting to Banishing Light. Courser + Exploration wins games all by itself, and Courser + Guile also awesome at providing a reliable card advantage engine even without Exploration. Banishing Light is great also, although if you're seeing a lot of Deathblade or another permanent-heavy deck I'd probably consider a 2-2 split with O. Ring because of the ability to "combo" O. Ring with Seal of Cleansing/Primordium and Replenish to handle multiple permanents. The best thing about it is how it's made Show and Tell matchups shockingly tractable now that there's no trigger for them to respond to. I'm thinking about dropping Helm and just running the Sigil, and I still don't like Emrakul. I'd like to work a Swords to Plowshares or two and maybe 1 or 2 Groves into the deck. Shusher has been good enough so far, but may be better as SB tech against Miracles.

[Watersaw]

Here is what I have been testing lately:

4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Green Sun's

4 Wild Growth
4 utopia Sprawl

3 Mirri's Guile
3 Rest In Peace

1 Helm of Obedience
1 Emrakul

2 Kruphix's Insight

1 Banishing Light
2 Suppression Field

3 Solitary Confinement
3 Elephant Grass

4 Serra's Sanctum
1 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas
11 Forest

Sideboard:
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Banishing Light
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Stony Silence
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Harmonic Sliver


The deck is solid at roughly a 75% win percentage in tournament practice on MTGO. It's not what I would call optimal however. I miss the 3rd Suppression Field main (sometimes that card just wins games all on it's own) & Kruphix's Insight is good but maybe only a one main (with more in board possibly.) So i'll likely make that switch.

Harmonic Sliver has been good at turning stale Green Suns into a good artifact / enchantment killer. i.e. Counterbalance, Spirit of the Labyrinth or Ensnaring Bridge...

Swords in the board continues to do a lot of work buying time vs tempo or clearing hate bears or fatties from D&T / Miracles or Reanimator.

Wish I had access to a 4th RIP. When its good you want it fast may cut a board Banishing Light for it.

For anyone making a UG or GWu list have you tested Shardless Agent or Ardent Plea? Since Cascade is cast it might be fun to hit an enchantment off of either one for draw / value.

I actually like this list a lot. Out of curiosity, what do you usually cut for StP? 2 Insight sounds a bit more reasonable, 4of is way too many I think. Especially with 3 RIP and no Sigil. Why 3/1 Banishing Light vs. Oblivion Ring?

[The_Dingo]

I feel like the cascade plan is a little too cute. I've finally come around to the GSZ plan, but I do think you want more than just Argothians as your targets. This is my current list, and I've been very happy with it:

Creatures
4 Argothian Enchantress
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Vexing Shusher

Other Non-Enchantment
2 Replenish
1 Helm of Obedience
4 Green Sun's Zenith

Enchantments
3 Elephant Grass
3 Mirri's Guile
3 Wild Growth
3 Utopia Sprawl
2 Banishing Light
2 Exploration
2 Solitary Confinement
1 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Rest in Peace
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne


Land
8 Forest
3 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Savannah
2 Serra's Sanctum
1 Karakas

Sideboard
3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Choke
2 Rest in Peace
1 Stony Silence
1 Karmic Justice
2 Suppression Field
2 Banishing Light
1 Gaddock Teeg

Courser has been excellent in Tempo matchups and offers additional creatures to sacrifice to Liliana as well as a way of removing her or another Planeswalker without resorting to Banishing Light. Courser + Exploration wins games all by itself, and Courser + Guile also awesome at providing a reliable card advantage engine even without Exploration. Banishing Light is great also, although if you're seeing a lot of Deathblade or another permanent-heavy deck I'd probably consider a 2-2 split with O. Ring because of the ability to "combo" O. Ring with Seal of Cleansing/Primordium and Replenish to handle multiple permanents. The best thing about it is how it's made Show and Tell matchups shockingly tractable now that there's no trigger for them to respond to. I'm thinking about dropping Helm and just running the Sigil, and I still don't like Emrakul. I'd like to work a Swords to Plowshares or two and maybe 1 or 2 Groves into the deck. Shusher has been good enough so far, but may be better as SB tech against Miracles.

IRT to banishing light, are you sure that there is no trigger to respond to. It has the "when it enters play" wording, which is the same as O ring. My understanding is that it would have to say "as banishing light enters play" for there to be no trigger to respond to, as is the case with pithing needle and phyrexian revoker.

[wsurugby10]

The plus of Banishing Light is that it targets an opponent where O-Ring targets permanents, possibly your own. If your opponent has no permanents you can still cast it to draw cards via an enchantress effect. The split is probably for Surgical Extraction.