[Deck] Solitaire (Enchantress)

[kohai]

Hi, long time lurker, first time poster to Enchantress.

I've been playing Lands and Storm for the past several years, and decided to pick up Enchantress.

Can anyone provide a "stock" list/core to start from? It seems like there are so many subtle variations to the deck that I'm not even sure where to begin. Even the number of Serra's Sanctum and win condition seems to be in flux or up to personal choice. The original page of the primer seems a bit out of date.

Thanks!

[Fjaulnir]

This seems like a good starting point?
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=10487&d=260029&f=LE



The highest placing list/biggest tournament finisher as of late - ok it's 1 year old but not *that* much has changed ;) And give or take 3-4 cards the maindeck looks pretty 'average' to what anyone would run.

IIRC the pilot later wrote Runed Halo didn't really do anything, so you may look into cutting that. For Sphere of safety or something like that? That gets played in most current lists too I think :)

[Stuart]

MtGGoldfish did a feature on Enchantress today (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/much-abrew-about-nothing-enchantress-legacy). People love their content, so maybe expect a slight Enchantress surge?

[Crimhead]

MtGGoldfish did a feature on Enchantress today (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/much-abrew-about-nothing-enchantress-legacy). People love their content, so maybe expect a slight Enchantress surge?
I'm expecting a surge anyway:
- This is one of the cheapest decks a person can build (and it's more interactive than Burn or Manaless Dredge).
- Argothian Enchantress got a reprint. Not an expensive card, but it will get noticed more now.
- The post CN2 meta likely shifts in our favour.

I expect his deck to become popular indeed!

[CptHaddock]

MtGGoldfish did a feature on Enchantress today (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/much-abrew-about-nothing-enchantress-legacy). People love their content, so maybe expect a slight Enchantress surge?

I wonder where he pulled his list from, it seems absolutely wrong to run enchantress without some number of GSZ's these days.

[Stuart]

I'm expecting a surge anyway:
- This is one of the cheapest decks a person can build (and it's more interactive than Burn or Manaless Dredge).
- Argothian Enchantress got a reprint. Not an expensive card, but it will get noticed more now.
- The post CN2 meta likely shifts in our favour.

I expect his deck to become popular indeed!

You might be right, though the deck's relative weakness to combo will probably cap its potential popularity. It takes a special kind of player to play a deck that's weak to Storm, Elves, Infect, etc at bigger events. Not that I think it's a bad choice, but part of the reason people play Miracles, Delver et al is because Force of Will & discard makes them feel like they've got game against the entire field.


I wonder where he pulled his list from, it seems absolutely wrong to run enchantress without some number of GSZ's these days.

In the video he says the list "took Thomas Parker to a top 4 finish at a Legacy IQ." Not sure which one he's referring to, but regardless, I agree with you. No GSZ or Eidolon of Blossoms, with only 1 Guile, seems wrong.

[Kozilek]

What are people's thoughts on a sideboard of 4 Leyline of Sanctity, 3/4 enlightened tutor, 5/8 silver bullets, and maybe a banishing light or two? (Based off of Crimhead's list)

For example


4x Leyline of Sanctity
4x Enlightened Tutor
1x Nether Void
1x Rest in Peace
1x Stony Silence
1x Suppression Field
1x Banishing Light
1x Choke
1x City of Solitude

[Fjaulnir]

What's Nether Void for, and how does it not screw Enchantress as lot as well? :) Never seen that in Ench before so I'd love to hear the thought process behind that!
(and I own 2 from Pox, so always fun to take out the good oldies ;) )

[Kozilek]

I believe it's for storm. However, enchantress has the ability to generate a lot of mana with 4 wild growth, 4 utopia sprawl, and 2 serra's sanctum, so there are probably many other decks that it hurts more than us. Mostly I listed it because I was basing my list off of crimhead's, but there might be something better to bun if we're using tutors.

[Megadeus]

What are people's thoughts on a sideboard of 4 Leyline of Sanctity, 3/4 enlightened tutor, 5/8 silver bullets, and maybe a banishing light or two? (Based off of Crimhead's list)

For example


4x Leyline of Sanctity
4x Enlightened Tutor
1x Nether Void
1x Rest in Peace
1x Stony Silence
1x Suppression Field
1x Banishing Light
1x Choke
1x City of Solitude
I think you probably don't need 4 ETutor, but if you're going to run a few Aegis of the Gods deserves a spot. If you don't open on Leyline he's a turn 2 Leyline that can be tutored

[Crimhead]

I think you probably don't need 4 ETutor, but if you're going to run a few Aegis of the Gods deserves a spot. If you don't open on Leyline he's a turn 2 Leyline that can be tutored
Or Ivory Mask, depending if you want the body.

[Megadeus]

Except mask is 4 mana and is bad Leyline. The key to Aegis is on response to storms discard spell you cast ETutor, get Aegis and get hexproof on turn 2. Turn 3 is incredibly slow

[Crimhead]

Except mask is 4 mana and is bad Leyline. The key to Aegis is on response to storms discard spell you cast ETutor, get Aegis and get hexproof on turn 2. Turn 3 is incredibly slow
I never ran mask - for some reason I though it was :1::w:.

[Fjaulnir]

I bit the bullet and I'm just gonna try it on Mtgo, exciting!! Hoping to add some more positive numbers to the Enchantress part of the online metagame :p


This definately solves my problem of feeling bad for my unwilling opponents on weekly casual legacy/decktesting, or cockatrice. (Understandably - ppl just want to test their decks against "real/relevant" decks :p )

[Crimhead]

What are people's thoughts on a sideboard of 4 Leyline of Sanctity, 3/4 enlightened tutor, 5/8 silver bullets, and maybe a banishing light or two? (Based off of Crimhead's list)
E.Tutors are nice because the can grab whatever silver bullet we need, and on the play we don't have to expose ourselves to discard. Card disadvantage is motivated by the power of the plays. Eg, landing RIP against Reanimator is worth losing a card. If the enchantment we find is countered, the card disadvantage sucks, likewise if we end up drawing to many. I could see running 1-2, not 3-4 though.

[Stuart]

I've been running 1 E Tutor since I built the deck in January and have been happy with that number. Between that, 3-4 Sterling Grove, 3 Guile and all the Enchantress effects, I'm usually able to find what I'm looking for.

[Megadeus]

I used to run 1 main, 1 side, and I almost never boarded the second one in

[L3gion]

Hi there everyone, long time lurker here.

Enchantress is my favourite deck, love the cards in it, learned playing magic during Tempest and Urza's Saga.
Looking to get some feedback on a Enchantress Living wish build.
From past posts I noticed people disliked Living Wish due to speed, since it costs one more mana to get an enchantress into play with it.
But I'am a very big fan of the flexibility it provides, and I try to offset the speed deficit with 3 chrome Mox. Playing turn 1 RIP and Enchantress is pretty good. Also turn 1 RIP makes for some really salty rage quits ;)
Some points in favour of the Living Wish build:
-Flexibility.
-Makes every sideboard card you need (lands and creatures) be x 4.
-Reduces the possibility of drawing main deck dead/bad cards (Emrakull, Dryad Arbor, Karakas, etc...)
-Karakas is a great card, but as a one of you never draw it when you need it, Wishes get you karakas in a pinch.
-More sideboard answers in form of creature singletons.

The list:

Artifact (4):
3 Chrome Mox
1 Helm of Obedience

Creature(3):
3 Argothian Enchantress

Enchantment(29):
4 Enchantress's Presence
3 Mirri's Guile
3 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Sterling Grove
2 Solitary Confinement
3 Elephant Grass
3 Rest in Peace
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 Sphere of Safety
1 Banishing Light

Instant(1):
1 Enlightened Tutor

Sorcery(4):
4 Living Wish

Land(19):
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Bayou
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Serra's Sanctum
3 Windswept Heath
1 Savannah
5 Forest
1 Plains

Sideboard:
1 Stony Silence
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Karakas
1 Serra's Sanctum
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Argothian Enchantress
1 Doomwake Giant
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
1 Containment Priest
1 Replenish

Some of the sideboard choices:
Teeg because it's great against 12 post.
Sigarda for black decks.
Doomwake for creature matchups, and also gets protection from Sterling Grove.
Dromoka for counterspells matchups, with the ramp the deck uses it's pretty easy to cast. Also provides a great beater for some matchups, and as a 5/7 it's pretty hard to remove.
Containment priest against opposing Emrakulls and reanimated.
The rest doesn't need explanation.

Best :)

[ESG]

Hi there everyone, long time lurker here.
...
Looking to get some feedback on a Enchantress Living wish build.
From past posts I noticed people disliked Living Wish due to speed, since it costs one more mana to get an enchantress into play with it.
But I'am a very big fan of the flexibility it provides, and I try to offset the speed deficit with 3 chrome Mox.

Well, I'm not sure what you want, since you know from past posts here that most of the players consider Living Wish a weak option. Your "points in favor" section basically restates the reasons why the card was considered in the first place. I think your first test should be to re-examine what in the landscape has changed since then and whether that changes the card's drawbacks. If the situation hasn't really changed, then the result will be the same as last time. In general, playing a second weak card in order to lessen the drawback of the first weak card is not the path to success. Chrome Mox is a trap unless the most important metric is speed. But if the most important metric is speed, that suggests that Living Wish is poorly positioned, since it is so slow.

Ultimately, I don't want to tell you that your list is bad. I think all lists have a place somewhere, and if you tune your list to be good against the decks you regularly face, then it will show in your results. I feel that the best way to try out ideas is to play the list in a tournament setting. Note what happened: What did you lose to and why? What did you beat and why? Repeat. After you have your results and data, you can fine-tune from there, and you can seek other players' opinions on your lines of play and your card choices. That's a better starting point than just posting a list that resembles one that's already been debated and abandoned.

[Megadeus]

Teeg against 12 post? What exactly are you stopping with him.

[The_Dingo]

Hi there everyone, long time lurker here.

Enchantress is my favourite deck, love the cards in it, learned playing magic during Tempest and Urza's Saga.
Looking to get some feedback on a Enchantress Living wish build.
From past posts I noticed people disliked Living Wish due to speed, since it costs one more mana to get an enchantress into play with it.
But I'am a very big fan of the flexibility it provides, and I try to offset the speed deficit with 3 chrome Mox. Playing turn 1 RIP and Enchantress is pretty good. Also turn 1 RIP makes for some really salty rage quits ;)
Some points in favour of the Living Wish build:
-Flexibility.
-Makes every sideboard card you need (lands and creatures) be x 4.
-Reduces the possibility of drawing main deck dead/bad cards (Emrakull, Dryad Arbor, Karakas, etc...)
-Karakas is a great card, but as a one of you never draw it when you need it, Wishes get you karakas in a pinch.
-More sideboard answers in form of creature singletons.

The list:

Artifact (4):
3 Chrome Mox
1 Helm of Obedience

Creature(3):
3 Argothian Enchantress

Enchantment(29):
4 Enchantress's Presence
3 Mirri's Guile
3 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Sterling Grove
2 Solitary Confinement
3 Elephant Grass
3 Rest in Peace
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 Sphere of Safety
1 Banishing Light

Instant(1):
1 Enlightened Tutor

Sorcery(4):
4 Living Wish

Land(19):
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Bayou
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Serra's Sanctum
3 Windswept Heath
1 Savannah
5 Forest
1 Plains

Sideboard:
1 Stony Silence
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Karakas
1 Serra's Sanctum
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Argothian Enchantress
1 Doomwake Giant
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
1 Containment Priest
1 Replenish

Some of the sideboard choices:
Teeg because it's great against 12 post.
Sigarda for black decks.
Doomwake for creature matchups, and also gets protection from Sterling Grove.
Dromoka for counterspells matchups, with the ramp the deck uses it's pretty easy to cast. Also provides a great beater for some matchups, and as a 5/7 it's pretty hard to remove.
Containment priest against opposing Emrakulls and reanimated.
The rest doesn't need explanation.

Best :)

SO living wish does provide some very important utility in the deck, but GSZ does the same thing better.

GSZ does double duty as enchantress and as wild growths 9-12
It shuffles back in to prevent decking, and increases vitrual copies of enchantress following a terminus (fringe, but important.)
GSZ can dodge counterbalance

Living wish is slower by a considerable margin.
If Emrakul is in the SB instead of main he can get stranded in the SB by a counterbalance on 2 or chalice on 2 leaving you in a very bad spot.

Living wish sacrifices speed for flexibility, and the occasional chance to throw a game one heymaker. So sometimes, you will be able to get Teeg or Aethersworn canonist vs storm in game 1 which probably just wins, or containment priest vs sneak and show which leaves them on just show into omniscience as their out (they probably play enough cantrips to find it). But the vast majority of legacy decks, such as miracles, shardless bug, or even delver are too versatile to be susceptible to a single silver bullet style creature. And against these decks you'll win more by being streamlined and fast than by being tricksy and attempting to play a silver bullet that's probably more like a copper bullet in reality.

[Fjaulnir]

Am really glad I decided to bite the bullet on Mtgo, it gives so many reps and practice that's impossible to get in paper.

Started playing 4 days ago and think I finished 5 leagues, had one 5-0 two days ago and another 4-1 that still gave me nice prizes but did some bad sequencing in the deciding turn g3 that cost me that one match. (Others were two times 2-3 and once 1-4).

Just like in paper it really depends on matchups of course, the 1-4 was where I got paired against Storm 3 times in 5 rounds ;)

Been testing Sacred Mesa again in the SB for Miracles and for matchups where you want to board out Riphelm and board in Replenish.
(Or board out Emrakul because its too slow).

It hasnt done anything yet so far though, except cost me one game due to bad mana use causing me not to have enough for surviving ;) seems like the perfect manasink for when flooding out and not having an engine going; but reality proves otherwise(?)
It's a pity, I used to win many games with it back when I started in Legacy 3-4 years ago.

Sigil also disappoints me usually, 5 mana + needing to cast other stuff before doing anything didnt help me anything so far either. So Im still looking for a 2nd wincon for matches where you want replenish but not riphelm.

[Fjaulnir]

Still unsure about Dryad Arbor, its one of these cards thats either very good or very meh.
Whenever I dont run him, and have GSZ in opening hand but no Sprawl I wish I could Zenith him for T2 three mana.
Or saved a game as surprise blocker for YP off a fetch.

But sucks in your opening 7, or anywhere except when you GSZ him turn one. Usually gets sided out first for an extra Carpet or something.
I've also tried 1x Petal in the main instead, but there the problem is opposite (great in opener, but otherwise meh)

[simdude]

New toy? Blind obedience was already fringe playable in my opinion.

Consul's Power
W
Enchantment
Creatures your opponents control enter the battlefield tapped.

Whenever a creature enters the battlefield under an opponents control, you gain 1 life.


Off the top of my head this would be best against Sneak and Show, Elves, Eldrazi, UR Delver, Dredge, and Burn. So I'm feeling like this isn't exactly the right meta-game for the effect right now but it's a very good one to keep in the binder in case S&S and Elves show back up in larger numbers.

[Stuart]

New toy? Blind obedience was already fringe playable in my opinion.

Consul's Power
W
Enchantment
Creatures your opponents control enter the battlefield tapped.

Whenever a creature enters the battlefield under an opponents control, you gain 1 life.


Off the top of my head this would be best against Sneak and Show, Elves, Eldrazi, UR Delver, Dredge, and Burn. So I'm feeling like this isn't exactly the right meta-game for the effect right now but it's a very good one to keep in the binder in case S&S and Elves show back up in larger numbers.

I agree on keeping a copy or two in the binder, but is the effect really worth any space in the 75? Sneak and Show can still easily beat us with Show & Tell (especially if it's OmniSneak). Against fair decks, cards like Elephant Grass and Solitary are stronger defensive options. The only one that jumps out at me is Elves, but even then, wouldn't something like Doomwake or Engineered Plague be a better use of your time & mana?

[Fjaulnir]

Anyone knows what's up with this? :
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=12777&d=274099&f=LE

Runs Tops instead of Guile, another event he top-8ed he did the same:
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=11922&d=268241&f=LE

(both 45-50 players so winning and 5/8ing one isn't a small feat and he must be on to something?)

Could hardly imagine where you'd want Top instead of guile? 1 forest, guile, is often enough not to mulligan (as guile will almost always find something), but with Top you can't cast Argothian turn 2 then.
Also topdecking Guile seems better late game?


I was wondering mostly though, about the first list I listed, when would anyone board in Gaea's Touch and why is that not just Exploration or something? He has *a lot* of basic forests compared to my builds so I guess it's similar, but still seems strange. I only love exploration when going off and having 1 Green floating into Expl and then dropping a Serra's Sanctum to finish things, rather than just 1 forest for 1 green.


Krosan Grip surprises me too - are either SDTop or Batterskull that big of a problem? I guess it also kills Spirit of the Labyrinth or Revoker even with active Mom :-)
Makes some sense - he plays Tops as well, so Suppression Field / Stony Silence aren't good options against miracles here.


And err, Garruk Primal Hunter, anyone got an idea why it would be good here?


I've decided to put this together on MTGO because 4 Carpet seems so strong there. 30% of my opponents are on (mostly grixis) Delver variants, and with all the miracles, it feels like 80% of the meta is blue - as opposed to maybe 55% IRL in my local tourneys where 4x Carpet maindeck seems kinda dead half the matchups.

(changed maybe 2 nonland cards maindeck, like -1 Solitary +1 Sphere bc of card availability, and -1 Sigil +1 Sacred Mesa because it's an awesome mana sink with all the carpets; and just seems generally better. Won me a game against Eldrazi where I only had 2 cards left in my library under Confinement, so having to play enchantments into Sigil would have killed me there. I like the "just sit back & let the pegasi make themselves" mode)

Sideboard is more traditional, with a heavy focus on combo (Trinisphere, Humility, Leylines etc) as those are represented heavily on MTGO as well.



And to my surprise this list feels VERY powerful!!! Top over Guile makes it harder to play, as you need to think about sequencing quite a lot. But it provides better "get out of sticky situations by needing ONE specific card" situations: when you have f.ex. a draw 3 going on, but are almost dead on board (or need 1 more lick piece), you can resolve the first triggers before topping, allowing to dig you a lot deeper than Upkeep Mirri.
And it can keep giving gass instead of dead draws during a big spell chain turn, or under a solitary confinement etc. Very nice, I like it eventhough I have always been in love with Mirri.
So no more 'let the stuff happen by itself' / just 'yield to all triggers' on MTGO anymore to make it flow easily, so more mistakes can be made.


Just finished my first league, went 3-2, only lost due to mul to 4 into still only 1 land against Eldrazi g3. Crushed 2x Miracles, 1x HexDepths and lost closely to 1x Aluren, g3 had Leyline + Trinisphere + Seal of Primordium to stop the combo but just kept drawing blanks even with Top online so after 8 turns he could combo through, still feel like I had a decent chance. This will be my default "to go to" for a while :)

[Fjaulnir]

This came up a few pages back, and I think the concensus was: no. It's a weird list.

An opponent on MTGO just told me that player is actually ESG here on the Source. I've seen him post elsewhere, but not on this thread I think? Would be cool if he could comment some on the card choices and what worked out for him and what not :)

Edit: Derp, seems someone already identified him as ESG a few pages back :eek:

[Crimhead]

Still unsure about Dryad Arbor, its one of these cards thats either very good or very meh.
Whenever I dont run him, and have GSZ in opening hand but no Sprawl I wish I could Zenith him for T2 three mana.
Or saved a game as surprise blocker for YP off a fetch.

But sucks in your opening 7, or anywhere except when you GSZ him turn one. Usually gets sided out first for an extra Carpet or something.
I've also tried 1x Petal in the main instead, but there the problem is opposite (great in opener, but otherwise meh)Once our engine is on me we usually have an abundance of lands in our hand - to the point that we are discarding them! In other words, as the game progresses Dryad Arbor is no worse than a forest because we'll have more lands than we can drop either way. Definitely true sucks in our opening seven, or even if we draw it early. But after that it's no more or less a brick than any other land (besides Sanctum or to some extent Canopy). Even when it's "bad" it can still chump against an aggressive deck, buying us time to set up our defense.

I'm sold on it myself!

[Stuart]

Question for anyone on the Black splash: how many Doomwakes and/or other win cons are you running? I've been on Naya for a while, but with DnT's growing popularity and my hatred of Elves, I want to try the Black splash.

I've been happy with 1 Emrakul and 1 Helm as my only win cons. I want to try swapping out the Helm for 1 Doomwake. However, I'm worried that 1 Doomwake =/= 1 Helm, as it doesn't win immediately and can be killed by StP, etc. Thoughts?

If it helps, here's the list I have in mind:

4 Enchantress
1 Eidolon
1 Doomwake
1 Emrakul

4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Elephant Grass
4 Sterling Grove
3 Mirri's Guile
2 Exploration
2 GSZ
2 Solitary Confinement
1 E Tutor
1 Banishing Light
1 Sphere of Safety
1 City of Solitude

4 Sanctum
4 Fetches
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
9 Forest
2 Plains

(My current list is this -1 Doomwake, -1 Grove, -2 Exploration, -1 Bayou, +3 RIP, +1 Helm, +1 Taiga.)

[btm10]

I'd cut the Savannah for a third GSZ. As much as I was skeptical of that card initially, I think 3 is the minimum. Getting an Enchantress into play is absolutely critical and GSZ is just another virtual copy of the effect that can double as a sideboard card as well.

[Fjaulnir]

If you want to cut a land, I d rather cut a Serras Sa or a basic plains, having that Green turn 1 is really important so I certainly wouldnt cut the Savannah first.

[btm10]

The only defensible nonbasics in Enchantress are Nykthos, Sanctum, and the Gx dual for your tertiary color. You really don't want to put yourself in a position where you have to enchant Savannah to get going, and your most important turn 1 plays are Utopia Sprawl and Wild Growth. Even with Exploration, I find that I flood too often on 21 Lands.

[Fjaulnir]

The only defensible nonbasics in Enchantress are Nykthos, Sanctum, and the Gx dual for your tertiary color. You really don't want to put yourself in a position where you have to enchant Savannah to get going, and your most important turn 1 plays are Utopia Sprawl and Wild Growth. Even with Exploration, I find that I flood too often on 21 Lands.

Mhh, maybe in 3 colour enchantress Savannah can be 1 extra risky nonbasic too many. In 2 color ench, where you don't need another Gx it's just fine. It's especially necessary if you run >4 fetches (i.e. non-Windswept fetches).

I'd also like to add Karakas in metas that have a good amount of decks like Reanimator or Show & tell. It has saved me countless of times, and additionally it can loop Emrakul if you can't kill them in 1 shot (or if they have Strix out, happened to me enough that I had to annihilate twice first), or to save him from Terminus.
May be clunky in 3 colour builds maybe, but in Enchantress without much splash it's just fine unless your meta doesn't require it at all.

[The_Dingo]

Question for anyone on the Black splash: how many Doomwakes and/or other win cons are you running? I've been on Naya for a while, but with DnT's growing popularity and my hatred of Elves, I want to try the Black splash.

I've been happy with 1 Emrakul and 1 Helm as my only win cons. I want to try swapping out the Helm for 1 Doomwake. However, I'm worried that 1 Doomwake =/= 1 Helm, as it doesn't win immediately and can be killed by StP, etc. Thoughts?

If it helps, here's the list I have in mind:

4 Enchantress
1 Eidolon
1 Doomwake
1 Emrakul

4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Elephant Grass
4 Sterling Grove
3 Mirri's Guile
2 Exploration
2 GSZ
2 Solitary Confinement
1 E Tutor
1 Banishing Light
1 Sphere of Safety
1 City of Solitude

4 Sanctum
4 Fetches
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
9 Forest
2 Plains

(My current list is this -1 Doomwake, -1 Grove, -2 Exploration, -1 Bayou, +3 RIP, +1 Helm, +1 Taiga.)

I'd just caution that I've tried numerous versions of enchantress over the years, and not one has had anything even close to a positive elves matchup. The DnT MU does get improved by the addition of doomwake. I've also found suppression field to be very helpful against DnT (but that's not what you're asking about).

Overall I find your list to be fine, no major critiques from me. The only suggestion I have is really preference based, but I would suggest cutting the 2nd plains. You only need 20 lands.

[Stuart]

My bad, everyone. It should only have 20 lands; I run 3 Sanctums. I agree that 21 is too many.

[Megadeus]

Mhh, maybe in 3 colour enchantress Savannah can be 1 extra risky nonbasic too many. In 2 color ench, where you don't need another Gx it's just fine. It's especially necessary if you run >4 fetches (i.e. non-Windswept fetches).

I'd also like to add Karakas in metas that have a good amount of decks like Reanimator or Show & tell. It has saved me countless of times, and additionally it can loop Emrakul if you can't kill them in 1 shot (or if they have Strix out, happened to me enough that I had to annihilate twice first), or to save him from Terminus.
May be clunky in 3 colour builds maybe, but in Enchantress without much splash it's just fine unless your meta doesn't require it at all.

I definitely always would play a Savannah at least. Sometimes your hand is fetch wild growth and you have a 2 mana white spell you need in a combo match up where forest doesn't get you green mana. I'm currently trying out a karakas instead of forest #8.

Played in my two "big" weekend events with this deck this weekend. Got top 8 both days, but git a bye both days too which helped. Not too much deviation. My list was actually pretty similar to one posted recently. Tried out main board City of Solitude. Wasn't too bad though I didn't play a whole lot of matches where it was amazing. Karakas actually saved me in vintage when I tried out a vintage version when my opponent was on oath and Iona'd me. Actually defeated that man by decking him in game 1 because he made Blazing Archon and I made solitary confinement with double Sterling Grove

Also I play 19 lands which may be greedy. I could see going to 61 and playing forest #8

[The_Dingo]

I'd also like to add Karakas in metas that have a good amount of decks like Reanimator or Show & tell. It has saved me countless of times, and additionally it can loop Emrakul if you can't kill them in 1 shot (or if they have Strix out, happened to me enough that I had to annihilate twice first), or to save him from Terminus.

May be clunky in 3 colour builds maybe, but in Enchantress without much splash it's just fine unless your meta doesn't require it at all.

I forgot about Karakas. It's nice to randomly draw vs things like reanimator and sneak and show, and it is also helpful against DnT. Making them pick Thalia up for a turn can let you pull through their mana denial.

[Crimhead]

When I played Naya Enchantress years ago I ran four fetches, two Savannahs, two Sanctums, one Taiga, and one Karakas. This seemed to be pretty much stock at the time.

I do like the idea of Horizon Canopy in place of the second Savannah. Trading it up for a card later is worth the life payment (and fetchibility is not going to matter much beyond the first Savannah). Dryad Arbor also seems like a solid choice - especially if the big argument against non-basics is grounded in wanting three mana on turn two (Wild Growth or Utopia Sprawl), which is exactly what Dryad Arbor is there for.

Regarding the turn one enchant land play, this is important if you are planning a turn two Presence or GSZ. But if you are dropping a natural Argothian Enchantress, sometimes it's better to delay that play so you can get a card off it. Either way, 11-13 basics & fetches should be plenty I think.

[Fjaulnir]

Went 4-1 in another league last night, with a list close to the SDTop list, very sad to meet reanimator while I was 4-0, I want to see Enchantress in the list of 5-0s again :p
Beat Shardless, Loam, Eldrazi and Miracles iirc. Against Reani I had Karakas for Griselbrand, but drawing 14 is still OP so next turn he could get a Grave Titan on board with decay for my Elephant Grass. And drew 4 lands/GSZs in a row so had nothing to stop him anymore.


Playing with this list:

9 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Serra's Sanctum
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Argothian Enchantress
1 Eidolon of Blossoms
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Replenish
1 Banishing Light
3 Carpet of Flowers
3 Elephant Grass
4 Enchantress's Presence
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Mirri's Guile
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
3 Solitary Confinement
1 Sphere of Safety
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
1 Gaea's Touch
1 Seal of Primordium

SIDEBOARD
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
1 Rest in Peace
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Humility
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Trinisphere


Top is certainly the real deal after turn 3, when it starts outperforming Guile. Keeping in 1 for the faster matchups instead of going to 3 Tops, as sometimes you prefer Guile turn 1 and 2 Tops should be sufficient to draw into them when you need 'em.
I certainly feel like I have less mulligans because of only playing 2 Serra's Sanctums. And with all the Carpets etc you get mana enough anyway.

Garruk has also been overperforming against grindy decks, and because of all the Carpet mana I finally feel that Sigil of the Empty Throne is making enough tokens early enough to kill people.

Ooze has also been nice, won me against Shardless by disabling his 2 Deathrites and Tarmogoyf at the same time. Having 5 green mana/turn to spend is nice :p

[Claymore1]

I'm coming across more and more Death and Taxes, and finding the match up rather difficult. As I look for ways to deal with the decks I face more often, I'm looking at Elephant Grass as the one to take out, in order to take care of such pesky creatures. It's not the combat aspect I am worried about, it's how powerful and annoying the abilities of the creatures are. But it's not just the DnT though, it's just a collection of various other things.

I no longer see, and have not seen "swarm" strategies from the likes of Merfolk, goblins, affinity for a long time already. It just feels like I need to deal with single creatures with really annoying abilities, or creatures that enables them to get going. If the meta an area is filled with the following:

Death and Taxes (3)
Maverick (1)
MUD (1)
Tin Fins (1)
ANT (1)
Show and Tell (3)
Sneak and Show (1)
Reanimator (1)
Shardless BUG (2)
Delver variants (3)
Combo elves (1)
Jund (1)
Miracles (1)
Lands (1)
Eldrazi (1)
Imperial Painter (1)

I run a 21 land count, 12 engine (no eidolon), replenish GWr build with Sigil and Emrakul as my Win-con, and Blood Moon on the side.
Does anyone have any advise for me to push enchantress through? I only have Enchantress as Legacy deck, so I'd like to make it work at least, if not at least hold my own. Anyone have any advise for me, both main decked and SB? Thank you, and appreciate those that took the time to respond and help me out.


Edit: I quit magic for a good couple years when my backpack containing my legacy decks and binders got stolen. A freind gave enchantress to me, and it's what brought me back to the format (or just magic in general), I actually really do love the deck, and would like to keep pushing the deck through if possible.

[Megadeus]

A couple main board swords to plowshares? If in red, Seal of Fire deals with most annoying hate bears. Humility Also? I guess there's also Chained to the Rocks

[The_Dingo]

I'm coming across more and more Death and Taxes, and finding the match up rather difficult. As I look for ways to deal with the decks I face more often, I'm looking at Elephant Grass as the one to take out, in order to take care of such pesky creatures. It's not the combat aspect I am worried about, it's how powerful and annoying the abilities of the creatures are. But it's not just the DnT though, it's just a collection of various other things.

I no longer see, and have not seen "swarm" strategies from the likes of Merfolk, goblins, affinity for a long time already. It just feels like I need to deal with single creatures with really annoying abilities, or creatures that enables them to get going. If the meta an area is filled with the following:

Death and Taxes (3)
Maverick (1)
MUD (1)
Tin Fins (1)
ANT (1)
Show and Tell (3)
Sneak and Show (1)
Reanimator (1)
Shardless BUG (2)
Delver variants (3)
Combo elves (1)
Jund (1)
Miracles (1)
Lands (1)
Eldrazi (1)
Imperial Painter (1)

I run a 21 land count, 12 engine (no eidolon), replenish GWr build with Sigil and Emrakul as my Win-con, and Blood Moon on the side.
Does anyone have any advise for me to push enchantress through? I only have Enchantress as Legacy deck, so I'd like to make it work at least, if not at least hold my own. Anyone have any advise for me, both main decked and SB? Thank you, and appreciate those that took the time to respond and help me out.


Edit: I quit magic for a good couple years when my backpack containing my legacy decks and binders got stolen. A freind gave enchantress to me, and it's what brought me back to the format (or just magic in general), I actually really do love the deck, and would like to keep pushing the deck through if possible.

I'm quite partial to journey to nowhere in white. In red I like words of war, and I like seal of fire in theory but I've never tried it.

[Claymore1]

I'm quite partial to journey to nowhere in white. In red I like words of war, and I like seal of fire in theory but I've never tried it.

I just went to a local game store and grabbed myself some seal of fire and Swords, going to try them out versus proxies and see how they work out for me. Hopefully, this well help me out with those pesky creatures.

[Stuart]

Played in my two "big" weekend events with this deck this weekend. Got top 8 both days, but git a bye both days too which helped. Not too much deviation. My list was actually pretty similar to one posted recently. Tried out main board City of Solitude. Wasn't too bad though I didn't play a whole lot of matches where it was amazing. Karakas actually saved me in vintage when I tried out a vintage version when my opponent was on oath and Iona'd me. Actually defeated that man by decking him in game 1 because he made Blazing Archon and I made solitary confinement with double Sterling Grove

Also I play 19 lands which may be greedy. I could see going to 61 and playing forest #8

Nice job on the top 8s!

I played 19 lands when I first built the deck (I think my list was based off yours), but found it just a little bit light. 20 has been the sweet spot for me, and a singleton Savannah has been great in that 20. The odds of it being your opening Wild Growthed land drop are slim, and once you have 1-2 basics out it provides a lot of flexibility with your fetches.

Enchantress feels like a deck that could go to 61 easily. I'm finding that whenever I want to try a new card, a big chunk of my list is non negotiable. Considering how easily we turn our spells into Recalls, 61 seems reasonable (though that might mean increasing our GSZ count to 3-4).


I'm coming across more and more Death and Taxes, and finding the match up rather difficult. As I look for ways to deal with the decks I face more often, I'm looking at Elephant Grass as the one to take out, in order to take care of such pesky creatures. It's not the combat aspect I am worried about, it's how powerful and annoying the abilities of the creatures are. But it's not just the DnT though, it's just a collection of various other things.

I no longer see, and have not seen "swarm" strategies from the likes of Merfolk, goblins, affinity for a long time already. It just feels like I need to deal with single creatures with really annoying abilities, or creatures that enables them to get going.

I feel the Elephant Grass pain. The card's still too good to cut, but there are times it feels bad (I've lost a lot of games to a local Aggroloam player who can just swing through Grass with an 8/8 Knight). In addition to the spot removal suggested, you could try Lignify; if your win cons are flyers and/or RIP Helm, the 0/4 treefolk won't matter.

Also, I recently added 1 maindeck City of Solitude and have liked it. Several of the decks you mentioned run Port, which City is good against. Also protects you from instant-speed Aether Vial, end-of-turn Marit Lage, etc.

[harbingerofthevoid]

@Claymore1. I'm wondering if Task Mage Assembly might be worth trying. For 30 cents it's worth a shot. Down side vs WoW is not hitting players. But, with Thalia 1 out, WoW costs at least 3 and a card where as with TMA, you can burn out the critters you want gone. And seeing as a ton of DnT critters are x/1, it only costs 2. Since Argothian has shroud, she's fine. They would have to pay 8 to kill an angel. It's "no creatures..." clause is nerfed by Argothian or at least by killig all thier critters but a little one that's already finished it's ETB effect.

On Lignify, I haven't played enchantress in a while but, I started to prefer Song of the Dryads. It's 1 more but hits so much stuff. They get a land but who cares most of the time. It takes out PWs and just about everything else.

[Megadeus]

One was due to time constraints we only cut to top 4 unfortunately. Other I lost to miracles in top 8. Picked up a stony and another city of solitude with some of the winnings. I can't stand losing to miracles. Might go up to a third Seal of Primordium on the board.

[Claymore1]

@Stuart
"Also, I recently added 1 maindeck City of Solitude and have liked it. Several of the decks you mentioned run Port, which City is good against. Also protects you from instant-speed Aether Vial, end-of-turn Marit Lage, etc"

I'm going to be honest, I feel really dumb right now haha. I never actually considered City of Solitude in that point of view. I have a big smile, and if you're around I'll give you a big hug right now lol. Thank you for that input.:laugh:

@harbingerofthevoid
"Claymore1. I'm wondering if Task Mage Assembly might be worth trying."

I don't think I'll go that route, but I greatly appreciate you taking the time to present options out there. After 2 days of play testing, I'm feeling much more comfortable with those said match ups. It took a bit of tweaking here and there, but I feel much better.

---

On another note, there's a Japanese (?) Legacy event, and while Miracles took 1st place, and Enchantress player took 2nd. His list is very weird, that the whole thing looks more like a toolbox.He's even running, not 4... but 1 Force of Will main decked. Although his single Cavern of Souls kind-of piqued my interest.

Here's the list that he used:
(Copied and pasted)

◎準優勝/finish second　Sasaki　Osamu

▽Lands(21)
４　吹きさらしの荒野/Windswept Heath
２　霧深い雨林/Misty Rainforest
３　セラの聖域/Serra’s Sanctum
１　魂の洞窟/Cavern of Souls
１　Tundra
１　Tropical Island
１　Savannah
１　カラカス/Karakas
５　森/Forest
１　平地/Plains
１　島/Island

▽Creatures(5)
４　アルゴスの女魔術師/Argothian Enchantress
１　引き裂かれし永劫、エムラクール/Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

▽Spells (35)
４　繁茂/Wild Growth
４　楽園の拡散/Utopia Sprawl
４　女魔術師の存在/Enchantress’s Presence
２　悟りの教示者/Enlightened Tutor
２　エレファント・グラス/Elephant Grass
２　エネルギー・フィールド/Energy Field
２　Helm of Obedience
２　退去の印章/Seal of Removal
２　安らかなる眠り/Rest in Peace
１　沈黙のオーラ/Aura of Silence
１　拘留の宝球/Detention Sphere
１　真の木立ち/Sterling Grove
１　ミリーの悪知恵/Mirri’s Guile
１　意志の力/Force of Will
１　神聖の力線/Leyline of Sanctity
１　崇拝の言葉/Words of Worship
１　踏査/Exploration
１　安全の領域/Sphere of Safety
１　独房監禁/Solitary Confinement
１　森の知恵/Sylvan Library

▽サイドボード/Sideboard
１　太陽の一掃/Sunscour
１　精神壊しの罠/Mindbreak Trap
１　真髄の針/Pithing Needle
１　白鳥の歌/Swan Song
１　魔力流出/Energy Flux
３　神聖の力線/Leyline of Sanctity
２　龍王ドロモカ/Dragonlord Dromoka
１　クローサの掌握/Krosan Grip
１　外科的摘出/Surgical Extraction
１　至高の評決/Supreme Verdict
１　無垢への回帰/Seeds of Innocence
１　花の絨毯/Carpet of Flowers

The whole list looks really weird to me, but it's nice to see other people's, from other countries take on it. :laugh:

[Megadeus]

Played a 4 color blood moon version tonight for shits. Only got to play a few games so not much in the way of practical testing but it was pretty fun when your blood moon draws a card. It helped me get over my fear of not having emrakul as a crutch to win the game though. Might try to actually build a better version with moon. People seem pretty happy to fetch duals knowing I have no wasteland to punish them. Guess it's time to punish them

[Stuart]

Sounds sweet. Can you post your list? I'm currently on the Black splash with 1 Taiga and 1 Blood Moon in the board, but it'd be interesting to see what a true 4C list looks like.

[Megadeus]

Nah it's similar to yours. I do have doomwake, eplague, and words of war throughout the deck too though. I'll probably come up with a more refined list and post for critiques sometime maybe Sunday

[simdude]

I've been running just a red splash for Blood Moon and Nahiri online for awhile now. I've had decent success with my list online going 3-2 / 4-1 in pretty much every legacy league I do. I was thinking about going to Eternal Extravaganza in two weeks though and I'm not sure this list is ideal for paper where you see a lot more Death and Taxes which is probably the best matchup for the black splash and Doomwake Giant. I hadn't considered a 4C list but I think I might start grinding game online with that. How many fetches do you think are good? I've been running 6 in just the red splash. Do you still play Karakas?

[Megadeus]

I played with the Karakas in the list the other night. Looking back I probably should've cut it for the taiga. I think moon with doomwake is possible. Abundant growth is a nice fixer. The turns don't get to be nearly as crazy though because sanctum gets turned off. I think I would cut a single exploration and go to 1. I play 5 fetches currently. 6 may be correct though

[Claymore1]

I've been running just a red splash for Blood Moon and Nahiri online for awhile now. I've had decent success with my list online going 3-2 / 4-1 in pretty much every legacy league I do. I was thinking about going to Eternal Extravaganza in two weeks though and I'm not sure this list is ideal for paper where you see a lot more Death and Taxes which is probably the best matchup for the black splash and Doomwake Giant. I hadn't considered a 4C list but I think I might start grinding game online with that. How many fetches do you think are good? I've been running 6 in just the red splash. Do you still play Karakas?

Same...

I run Nahiri on my list as well, I have a 6 fetch count with a 4-1-1 split. However I went for a combination of Zenith and Tutor with a 4-2 split.
However, I do not main any blood moon as it is on the side, and I would bring in Sigil when I would bring in blood moons as well as Emrakul gets turned off.

This is the list I am running:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?4607-DO-NOT-TRY-TO-SELL-IN-HERE-Pimp-Legacy-Decks&p=971814&viewfull=1#post971814

Though it's a little outdated as I run Pithing Needle now (from what used to be Songs of Dryad) in the side that I can easily tutor for.

[Megadeus]

Same...

I run Nahiri on my list as well, I have a 6 fetch count with a 4-1-1 split. However I went for a combination of Zenith and Tutor with a 4-2 split.
However, I do not main any blood moon as it is on the side, and I would bring in Sigil when I would bring in blood moons as well as Emrakul gets turned off.

This is the list I am running:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?4607-DO-NOT-TRY-TO-SELL-IN-HERE-Pimp-Legacy-Decks&p=971814&viewfull=1#post971814

Though it's a little outdated as I run Pithing Needle now (from what used to be Songs of Dryad) in the side that I can easily tutor for.

I moved Sigil main, emrakul board. So I lose an uncounterable win condition, but I've got three others so I still can win a game if my opponent decided to go on the, let everything through but win conditions plan. Deck looks pretty clunky right now though. Might drop rip for replenish and other stuff. Dunno.

[cheerios]

hey guys,

How do you approach the infect matchup? I'm using the GW build with helm combo. Thanks in advance.

Cheers

[Fjaulnir]

hey guys,

How do you approach the infect matchup?

Usually I roll over and die ;)


But nah, more serious answer: winning is really tough. Once I boarded a Melira as a GSZ target, and he managed to just beat me for something like 18 nonpoison dmg in 1 turn (which is lethal after fetching).

I try to drop Grass as soon as possible, but maintaining it is hard and you're just delaying the inevitable. If they have Hierarch out, Grass doesn't do a lot.
I also try to get a Humility or Confinement out as quickly as possible, but you'd need 2 or a Grove cuz they'll have Krosan Grip boarded in for sure. And Humility at 4 is not really very likely to happen when you're dead before that.

If you splash black, Engineered Plague seems very nice (also good vs Elves & DnT which aren't usually the best MUs for Enchantress) but I haven't tested it myself yet.

[Megadeus]

Yeah it's awful. I'd rather play against storm than Infect honestly, that's how poor of a match up it is. EPlague on human stops hierarch and agent, but doesn't stop glistener elf or inkmoth. Doomwake is nice, but doesn't stop inkmoth which is why I like boarding Seal of Primordium, but it's just awful. I've debated playing Moments Peace, but it's not good. There's a new enchantment that adds 4 energy and fogs a single source for the cost of 2 energy. It's probably bad but it's the only thing that's remotely playable for this deck in the new set

[simdude]

Same...

I run Nahiri on my list as well, I have a 6 fetch count with a 4-1-1 split. However I went for a combination of Zenith and Tutor with a 4-2 split.
However, I do not main any blood moon as it is on the side, and I would bring in Sigil when I would bring in blood moons as well as Emrakul gets turned off.

This is the list I am running:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?4607-DO-NOT-TRY-TO-SELL-IN-HERE-Pimp-Legacy-Decks&p=971814&viewfull=1#post971814

Though it's a little outdated as I run Pithing Needle now (from what used to be Songs of Dryad) in the side that I can easily tutor for.

First, what a fantastic looking deck. Also I'm glad someone else is running Nahiri. I think she's a real, viable choice. Although obviously there will be some metagames (like the miracles over-saturated MTGO) where she shines more than others. But I'm much more interested in your thoughts on 3-Sphere and REB. I've seen 3-sphere in sideboards before but I've never actually tested it out myself but I've never considered REB. What matches are you sideboarding both of those in for?

[Megadeus]

I don't want to speak for Claymore, but I'd say 3 ball for storm and maybe Elfs? REB for show and chimp, I'd rather max out on ORings I think personally.

[harbingerofthevoid]

If you know infect is everywhere, might be stupid but Dense Foliage (http://magiccards.info/6e/en/221.html) might be worth a shot at least until you can get a Solitary online. Even if your running RiP/Helm, you might try adding a Bayou and some E. Plagues/Doomwake in the board. The later takes up more SB slots but is overall better on more match ups.

[CptHaddock]

If you know infect is everywhere, might be stupid but Dense Foliage (http://magiccards.info/6e/en/221.html) might be worth a shot at least until you can get a Solitary online. Even if your running RiP/Helm, you might try adding a Bayou and some E. Plagues/Doomwake in the board. The later takes up more SB slots but is overall better on more match ups.

Dense Foliage seems like it has the same problems that all the other cards have in that they're way too slow and don't really solve your problem. You might just be better off playing swords or Kirtar's Desire and hope to delay them to a point until you can establish some sort of lock. If you're really dedicated you can always play Melira, Sylvok Outcast but at that point it might just be worthwhile to call it a bad matchup and hope you avoid it.

[Fjaulnir]

Trinisphere is also really good against Aluren (a must-decay for them) which is more popular on mtgo though. And it's a beating against the new OmniTack derpdecks; O Ring/Humility/Karakas are often not enough since they now run Omniscience + Cunning Wish package. I have found out on Mtgo that my only surefire way to win against Omnitack is to drop 3Spgere off the Show n Tell, and attempt to cast the O Ring/... on my own consecutive turn if I have both. They can't Fow it anyway, as Fow also gets nuked by 3Sp

[cheerios]

I didn't know the infect matchup was really that bad. Hmmmm. I should probably add 4 peacekeepers in the SB.

cheers,

[Fjaulnir]

I didn't know the infect matchup was really that bad. Hmmmm. I should probably add 4 peacekeepers in the SB.

cheers,

Ha, that's a funny thought. They probably wouldn't be able to deal with that in any way besides countering :p but not after resolving.

4 seems a lot though? Mirri's Guile/Sensei's Divining Top lets you dig, agreed though that you'd want it turn 2 if possible (but Daze?), but 4 slots for a matchup that's maybe 3-5% of the metagame? I can't imagine other matchups where you'd want this, except maybe Eldrazi after they board out their Dismembers (but against Eldrazi, other cards are better so that still wouldn't warrant 4 slots this way imho). And Mana Dredge (manaless has the Flayer kill that doesn't require attacking), but there Elephant Grass should already do the trick.

If you're really worried about infect in general, and want slots that only serve that matchup, f.ex. cuz 5 people at your shop play it, a 1x GSZ target like Melira seems better since that automatically becomes a 5x. They can't beat Peacekeeper at all, and can still attack for normal damage through Melira to try to win, but that goes 2x as slow so it'll give you more chances of finding other lock pieces.

PS Melira is funky with Phyrexian Unlife against other matchups too ;-P but one probably shouldnt go there seriously (although I've tried Unlife; +10 life against Eldrazi etc can come in very handy, and storm can't beat that).

[Megadeus]

Never thought about peace keeper tbh. It's good versus drazi, show and chimp, infect, reanimator?

[The_Dingo]

Never thought about peace keeper tbh. It's good versus drazi, show and chimp, infect, reanimator?

Wish I had thought of this when elves was all over the fucking place. This is sweet tech.

[Fjaulnir]

Elves will still board in 4 Decay so can't rely on that solely. Especially as paying the upkeep each turn will prevent you from developing the board a lot. Landing something like Humility to stop Reclamation Sage / Wirewood Symbiote shenanigans still seems key to me.

Show & Tell seems to go back a bit more towards Omniscience (even the Sneaky Show variants), those also run Wishes right? Then it becomes less good than against old school Show & Tell.

Agree with Drazi, Reanimator and Infect though. (altho I've also seen Reanimator board in their decays, so again don't rely on it alone :p )

[Claymore1]

@Simdude

I bring in 3-spheres for the likes of storm based decks, and as well as SnT decks, my main concern when it comes to those decks is that Emrakul off SnT is not really as threatening, as opposed to Omni as they just flat out win on the spot. EtB triggers has not been successful for me really, as they just drop Omni and starts chaining spells in response to the trigger. The REB is there as just testing in my part, I replaced cards that I would normally bring in against blue based decks.


---

Regarding the infect match up, what Cheetos said is actually not a bad idea that I tried a while back, it's not just for infect but for the likes of Elves as well. Except that I went for a different route back then that used Living Wish. In order to grab either, peacekeeper, Emrakul, Aegis of the Gods, or an enchantess-type creature (wether its an argothian, or Eidolon). I tried it for a bit back then, however, it just consumed too much space for me and I wasn't very successful with it, but that's me though, I'm sure others can and will have better results. So I put the idea on hold for now.

There is a player that also ran it, well I saw a few of his matches in youtube a while back, went by the name of Tony Ronallo. He uses living wish as well. While I may have dabbled with the idea back then and may not have been sucessful with it, doesn't mean others can't. Sometimes figuring out the proper shell, and proper ratios are difficult. :) So to those who's experimenting, feel free to share your results, experiences, and thoughts.

Here's his games that he played. Just copy and paste these in your youtube search bar.
[Legacy] Round 1: Alex Daily (Lands) vs. Tony Ranallo (Enchantress)
[Legacy] Round 3B: Alex Ledo (12 Post) vs. Tony Ranallo (Enchantress)

I kind like the new card (as a 1-off in the side), Authority of the Consuls, specially since I run tutors (just 1 Sb slot and just 1 mana to drop it), it does a pretty good job versus Elves and Sneak Attack.

[Megadeus]

That card is nice against elfs and sneak. I have gone 5-1 (2-1 last week, 3-0 tonight) with the following list. I'm not sure how good it is, but drawing two off of blood moon is fun

4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
1 Abundant Growth
3 Mirris Guile
3 Elephant Grass
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Blood Moon
1 Solitary Confinement
1 Sphere of Safety
1 Words of War
1 Doomwake Giant
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
2 Rest in Peace
3 Sterling Grove
2 Exploration
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Oath of Nissa

4 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Serra's Sanctum
1 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
7 Forest
1 Plains

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Solitary Confinement
2 Stony Silence
1 Engineered Plague
1 Sun Titan
2 Seal of Primordium
1 Emrakul, The Aeons Torn
1 Karmic Justice
2 Banishing Light

Oath was pretty meh. It's probably better in the Nahiri Builds. Might put in a mainboard Banishing Light or Seal. Main board rest in peace without helm was pretty meh, but I had no matches against decks that care about the graveyard. Probably cut one for a City of Solitude since not having Emrakul main makes counters a bit better against me. Then Drop a second one for a replenish.

[B is for Big Job]

That card is nice against elfs and sneak. I have gone 5-1 (2-1 last week, 3-0 tonight) with the following list. I'm not sure how good it is, but drawing two off of blood moon is fun

4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
1 Abundant Growth
3 Mirris Guile
3 Elephant Grass
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Blood Moon
1 Solitary Confinement
1 Sphere of Safety
1 Words of War
1 Doomwake Giant
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
2 Rest in Peace
3 Sterling Grove
2 Exploration
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Oath of Nissa

4 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Serra's Sanctum
1 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
7 Forest
1 Plains

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Solitary Confinement
2 Stony Silence
1 Engineered Plague
1 Sun Titan
2 Seal of Primordium
1 Emrakul, The Aeons Torn
1 Karmic Justice
2 Banishing Light

Oath was pretty meh. It's probably better in the Nahiri Builds. Might put in a mainboard Banishing Light or Seal. Main board rest in peace without helm was pretty meh, but I had no matches against decks that care about the graveyard. Probably cut one for a City of Solitude since not having Emrakul main makes counters a bit better against me. Then Drop a second one for a replenish.

I like that you play 2x Exploration, I had done that for awhile and have since shaved to 1 but having it in multiples is great to chain Sanctums. Are you playing a Helm somewhere? Seems like it would be a good add to the MD for card #61 as you have MD Rip and 1x E-tutor.

[Megadeus]

I'm of the school of exploration being really good. I've considered going to 1, but I don't really know what I'd even be adding. Tbh, o took out RIP/Helm right before the event. It might be fine to keep, but I figured on trying out some different win conditions. This is the first time I've played the words cards, and one thing I really like about it is that once I get down a third, and sometimes even second enchantress effect I end up with another 1 or two in hand that I don't want to cast. Words makes it so I actually do want to cast extra effects because it's just more damage. I wax and wane on Sigil. I don't know how much I like it, but with moon being main, emrakul isn't the greatest. Like I said in my post, I've been debating cutting the RIPs from the main now that I don't have Helm anymore.

[Crimhead]

Sounds sweet. Can you post your list? I'm currently on the Black splash with 1 Taiga and 1 Blood Moon in the board, but it'd be interesting to see what a true 4C list looks like.
When I first built this deck years ago I was advised 4C would get one into trouble, and I never gave it much independent thought. But if we can pull it off it sounds delightful! Also something deliciously cheeky about running every colour but blue in a blue heavy format.

Anyone have good experiences with 4C?

[B is for Big Job]

I'm of the school of exploration being really good. I've considered going to 1, but I don't really know what I'd even be adding. Tbh, o took out RIP/Helm right before the event. It might be fine to keep, but I figured on trying out some different win conditions. This is the first time I've played the words cards, and one thing I really like about it is that once I get down a third, and sometimes even second enchantress effect I end up with another 1 or two in hand that I don't want to cast. Words makes it so I actually do want to cast extra effects because it's just more damage. I wax and wane on Sigil. I don't know how much I like it, but with moon being main, emrakul isn't the greatest. Like I said in my post, I've been debating cutting the RIPs from the main now that I don't have Helm anymore.

It is really good, especially when comboing off and you need more mana. The random wins with Rip/Helm are cool but not being able to use Replenish I feel hurts the deck overall, unless your meta is full of Dredge/ Reanimator. Words is one of the best win cons since you can't deck yourself when Sigil/ Emmy end up being in the bottom 10. It sucks since it can easily be Needled. Words of Wilding could be a great add in too since you can over run over opponents with the tokens. I have been playing Sacred Mesa and I feel it should be changed out for WoWilding. I am also a huge fan of Sylvan Library as well and has great synergy.

[btm10]

It is really good, especially when comboing off and you need more mana. The random wins with Rip/Helm are cool but not being able to use Replenish I feel hurts the deck overall, unless your meta is full of Dredge/ Reanimator. Words is one of the best win cons since you can't deck yourself when Sigil/ Emmy end up being in the bottom 10. It sucks since it can easily be Needled. Words of Wilding could be a great add in too since you can over r un over opponents with the tokens. I have been playing Sacred Mesa and I feel it should be changed out for WoWilding. I am also a huge fan of Sylvan Library as well and has great synergy.

While I can't condone cutting Mesa for Words of Wilding, I do like a 1-of Sylvan Library if you go down the Words path. Words of War is still a great win condition that combos with Sylvan, and if you're doing that I like a 1/1 or 2/1split of Confinement with Words of Worship as a way of soft-locking people if you're relying on Sylvan or otherwise can't get a Confinement lock up. Most decks can't beat 15 life/turn to begin with, and even if they can you will have bought yourself so much time before they got 20 elementals or 3 Goyfs or whatever that you should be able to win before it matters.

[ESG]

Words is one of the best win cons since you can't deck yourself when Sigil/ Emmy end up being in the bottom 10.

This is a crutch. If you are judicious with your Green Sun's Zeniths and your number of Enchantress effects in play, you can simply recycle the Zeniths. Also, if you really wanted to, you could draw into Emrakul and discard it to hand size to reshuffle. This is occasionally the right play.

[Fjaulnir]

This is a crutch. If you are judicious with your Green Sun's Zeniths and your number of Enchantress effects in play, you can simply recycle the Zeniths. Also, if you really wanted to, you could draw into Emrakul and discard it to hand size to reshuffle. This is occasionally the right play.

I won a game at GP Prague that way against Merfolk this summer. He had Chalice out on 1 and 2, I was on Emrakul & Rip/Helm as wincons during the GP. Because of not being able to resolve any sprawls, I couldn't get to 15 mana easily (and no Rip with chalice on 2) but he was Choke-locked + probably some other lock pieces as well. So I just dropped all my 1 and 2 drops into Chalice to draw my whole deck in a few turns, then discarded Emrakul & reshuffled, and went through my deck another time & discarded Emmy again and then he conceded totally frustrated because he had no way to win so I would just keep doing this until he decked himself.


Anyway, finished another League yesterday; started off really strong at 3-0,
wins against OmniTack (2-1; lost game 1, then won game 2 on the back of Humility and game 3 on the back of Trinisphere),
UR Delver (2-0)
and Miracles (2-0);

sadly lost 0-2 to Lands then by being Ghost Quarter + Loam locked 2 games in a row, so gone my chances of 5-0 and making the records ;) There G1 I also attempted the Emrakul reshuffle to get my basics back into my deck to be able to fetch them off Ghost Quarter again, because after a few turns I had run out of basics. Sadly he had Bojuka Bog before I could do that, effectively leaving me with 0 nonfetchlands in deck :p and g2, just as I had 13 mana & Emmy in hand, he drew Crop Rotation for Ghost Quarter to start taking out my Sprawled Lands.

and lost round 5 to Eldrazi. So 3-2, still made back my entry fee but feels bad after such a great start :) Against Lands I really missed Rip, maybe I should try 2 Rip, 1 Helm in the SB again against some of these matchups; my IRL meta also has enough Reanimator/Dredge/Lands to warrant that usually.


Playing this list:

2 Serra's Sanctum
1 Karakas
1 Plains
7 Forest
1 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills

1 Dryad Arbor

4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Replenish

4 Argothian Enchantress
1 Eidolon of Blossoms
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

3 Carpet of Flowers
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
4 Enchantress's Presence
3 Elephant Grass
4 Solitary Confinement
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Banishing Light
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
2 Mirri's Guile
2 Sensei's Divining Top


SB
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pithing Needle
2 Trinisphere
1 Krosan Grip
1 City of Solitude
2 Humility
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Elephant Grass

[Megadeus]

Yeah I've won my fair share of games by simply either discarding emrakul over and over and decking them, or by casting green Sun over and over and doing the same thing. The words are a nice way to not deck, but not necessary. I've never decked myself before with the deck. I've had a few times where my last three cards are all green sun's though

[Graycross]

Hello,

I've just recently bought into Legacy with the GW version of Enchantress. I had a good first week with the deck but the last few haven't been so hot.

My local meta seems to have a lot of one-of decks with sporadic attendees, but the average looks something like this:
2-DnT
2-Storm
2-Elves
1-Miracles
1-Show and Tell
With appearances from Dredge, BUG, Belcher, Tinfins, Merfolk, and Infect.

Could someone give me a general impression of these matchups? I've found most of them to be a bit rough if not unwinnable-feeling so far. Are there any SB cards that really stand-out against this meta? What might a good SB look like here? I've been running 2 Helm 1 Emra to try and keep pace with the fast decks.

Sideboarding has been difficult because of how tight the list seems, I'm never sure what is a valid candidate for cutting. Is there a SB guide around? What core-ish cards can be cut?

Eidolon of Blossoms seems really slow to me and I've been struggling to find it's value in the list. Am I missing something or is this feeling likely a product of my meta?

Apologies for the wall of questions, I feel like I've jumped into the deck too quickly and would really appreciate some direction.

Thanks

[btm10]

That actually sounds like a pretty rough meta for Enchantress since half of the regular decks are of the fast combo variety. Can you post your 75? It's hard to give advice without knowing what you're currently doing. Eidolon is there primarily so you can GSZ to to draw a card if you get stuck on spells with a Confinement out, and as a 12-13th Enchantress effect.

[Megadeus]

That is truly a horrible meta for you. I'd advise getting a bayou and adding two doomwake giant. If you resolve it against death and taxes with a Sterling Grove out, the game is simply over. It's also your best tool to defeat elves and infect as well, which are otherwise pretty awful. That meta I would also run at least 1, maybe two humility as it's important for fighting elfs. Otherwise good luck man. Your meta seems to be really full of the like 4 decks that are basically auto losses

[Graycross]

Well shoot.

I don't really have a set list yet, but have pretty much everything for GW except a Karakas and a Savannah. (Should I skip those and pick up a Bayou?) Within the GW framework I should definitely be running Humility then, what about Trinisphere? additional Enlightened Tutors to find Helm combo quick/get TSphere? I'm fine with being stuck in a shitty meta as it usually switches itself up after a while (At least I've noticed this trend with the local modern scene and have observed it in Legacy) a lot of people seem like their building new decks so maybe I'll catch a break over the course of the year. I also just really enjoy the deck so I have no intention of changing.

[The_Dingo]

Hello,

I've just recently bought into Legacy with the GW version of Enchantress. I had a good first week with the deck but the last few haven't been so hot.

My local meta seems to have a lot of one-of decks with sporadic attendees, but the average looks something like this:
2-DnT
2-Storm
2-Elves
1-Miracles
1-Show and Tell
With appearances from Dredge, BUG, Belcher, Tinfins, Merfolk, and Infect.

Could someone give me a general impression of these matchups? I've found most of them to be a bit rough if not unwinnable-feeling so far. Are there any SB cards that really stand-out against this meta? What might a good SB look like here? I've been running 2 Helm 1 Emra to try and keep pace with the fast decks.

Sideboarding has been difficult because of how tight the list seems, I'm never sure what is a valid candidate for cutting. Is there a SB guide around? What core-ish cards can be cut?

Eidolon of Blossoms seems really slow to me and I've been struggling to find it's value in the list. Am I missing something or is this feeling likely a product of my meta?

Apologies for the wall of questions, I feel like I've jumped into the deck too quickly and would really appreciate some direction.

Thanks

As some of the others mentioned, this is a rough meta for enchantress. Storm, sneak, infect, elves, belcher and tin fins are among the worst possible MUs. There are ways you can metagame against them though, but it generally requires a trade-off vs the fair decks. For example, if you really want to beat ANT try a maindeck Gaddock Teeg. It's an I win button in game 1, and you can realistically zenith for it on T2. Of course, you still have to win game 2 or 3, but this is possible post board.

For the elves, infect and sneak MUs maybe you could try the peacekeeper technology that was being discussed earlier?

Regarding eidolon, it might be a bit too slow for your meta.

[Stuart]

Welcome to Enchantress! It's definitely a tough deck to learn the format with, but it's the type of deck that pays off if you marry it.

You can get by without Karakas, but I'd definitely run 1 Savannah. You want basics the first 2 turns, but having a fetchable Savannah is extremely helpful for fixing your mana after that. Megadeus's suggestion of adding Bayou and Doomwake is smart, but for a starting list, adding a Savannah is probably more important than splashing black.

Not everyone agrees on Eidolon. As you've said, he's slow. I like him, though, as a way to keep your Solitary Confinement online.

I'm not aware of a good sideboarding guide out there. For the time being, I'd recommend only adding 1-3 cards per matchup; focus on learning the maindeck, and that'll help you figure out which cards aren't useful in any given matchup. Some sideboards cards I've liked for your matchups:
- Leyline of Sanctity is a good 3-4 of. It helps vs Storm and Belcher, and is also fun if you run into Burn. Storm can deal with it, and Empty The Warrens gets aorund it, but it's a nice speedbump until you can get other defenses online.
- Banishing Light and Oblivion Ring are somewhat helpful vs Show & Tell decks. Omniscience and Sneak Attack get around them, but if they just Show & Tell in a creature, these deal with that. They have other uses too, like eating Jace or DnT's annoying hatebears.
- City of Solitude and Choke are useful against anything with countermagic; I'd recommend 1 of each in the board, and City is also mainboardable. City is also useful vs DnT (shuts off Port, which is one of their best maindeck cards against us).
- If you splash black, Doomwake Giant is great. Dread of Night is nice vs DnT and Mentor Miracles, and Engineered Plague is good vs Elves and, to a lesser extent, Merfolk. Thoughtseize can also be a good card vs combo.
- Seal of Primordium helps with Miracles, and if Chalice decks ever show up in your meta it helps there, too.
- Sigarda is good vs Show & Tell, as she somewhat shuts off Emrakul. She can also be good vs DnT, as she stops them from Cataclysming you out of the game.
- I'm trying 1 Ulamog in the board; it's a mediocre Show & Tell card to put in, but also lets you play a more 12-Postish game vs Miracles.

Next time you play, post up the 75 you ran. It's much easier to give advice is we can see your list!

[Crimhead]

This is a crutch. If you are judicious with your Green Sun's Zeniths and your number of Enchantress effects in play, you can simply recycle the Zeniths. Also, if you really wanted to, you could draw into Emrakul and discard it to hand size to reshuffle. This is occasionally the right play. I've decked myself vs Miracles by having all my GSZs countered.

[Zombie]

Doesn't a slow draw engine in that combo centric a meta seem a bit counterproductive? Like, wouldn't you want to load up on Teeg, Giants, Brain Maggots, Stony Silences and such ASAP?

[Stuart]

For anyone on the black splash: when do you bring in Engineered Plague? I've got 1 in the board for Elves, but would like to know other good applications. There's obviously the occasional other tribal deck (Merfolk, Goblins, etc), and I thought it might be useful vs anything that's trying to Empty The Warrens me.

[Megadeus]

Kind of subjective, but it's good against mentor and pyromancer decks, name human against infect, and most tribal. It's probably not worth a slot against merfish. Maybe human against dnt, but meh. Also remember naming human will kill your own argothian. I think mostly elves and infect are the two match ups you really want it in.

[Fjaulnir]

Playing this list:

2 Serra's Sanctum
1 Karakas
1 Plains
7 Forest
1 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills

1 Dryad Arbor

4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Replenish

4 Argothian Enchantress
1 Eidolon of Blossoms
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

3 Carpet of Flowers
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
4 Enchantress's Presence
3 Elephant Grass
4 Solitary Confinement
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Banishing Light
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
2 Mirri's Guile
2 Sensei's Divining Top


SB
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pithing Needle
2 Trinisphere
1 Krosan Grip
1 City of Solitude
2 Humility
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Elephant Grass



Had another pretty good run online with the above list.

Finished 4-1 in a league yesterday, with above list + 1 basic forest as 61st card.

2-0 against Miracles
2-0 against 4C Bant
2-0 against 4C Bant (got paired against the same guy twice in a row cuz he dropped after his first loss & rejoined, ouch for him :) )
2-0 against Patriot Delver
0-2 against Esper Stoneblade. G1 I kept a hand I probably shouldn't have, and G2 Notion Thief out of the sideboard meant game over.


Then last night + today I had the above (so without the extra basic), finished 3-2.

0-2 against BUG Delver
2-1 against Belcher
2-0 against Miracles
(1-1 against BUG Delver, after which the programme bugged out while I was ahead in g3 so that game score got annulled)
0-2 against UR Delver, played very sillily into a Price of Progress there (at 4 life), which could have been avoided as I realised the mistake 0,1 second after playing the 2nd nonbasic, with 3 Elephant Grass + Leyline out to prevent any damage that wasn't PoP... still beat myself up over that!
2-1 against BUG Delver

Deathrite Shaman is still often the thing killing me - stabilise around 4-6 life with Grass, Confinement but them having 1-2 Deathrites that I only have a Banishing Light to stop (maindeck), is definately tough to beat. Often lost to Deathrites with a lock out, and all the cards to kill him next turn.

[Megadeus]

If deathrite is an issue you could always run Ground Seal so that your Replenish still works. It also hates on loam nicely and most of reanimators spells. Also randomly nice against surgical, which I've had happen to my presences before

[Fjaulnir]

I was considering that as GY hate indeed :) although RIP has the additional benefit of stopping Dredge, Storm and Goyfs better. I usually side in the Peedle against any Deathrite deck just to be sure - and they usually also run Lili in those builds (except "grixis" delver, but don't think I usually side in Peedle there) so it has more applications

It cantripping is very nice too against those grindy decks that usually run discard, so I'll put one in the board from now on as a test.

When I started Legacy (around RTR, so when Decay-Deathrite decks were very popular), I used to run 1 Ground Seal maindeck even...



Edit: and another 4-1 finish with the 61-card list (i.e. with the +1 basic forest), yay! :tongue: Feels like I'm closing in on the list that's working for me.

2-0 against Sneaky Show/OmniTack, 2-0 against Miracles, 2-1 against Shardless (sided in Ground Seal but didn't cast it, as I had Scooze + like 6-7 mana out without any other engine against DRS + Goyf, so that kept me alive), 0-2 against Belcher, 2-1 against Miracles.


Also REALLY happy with the current 2-2 split Guile/Top. They both have their function, so I like the split better than sticking to just 1 of them.

[simdude]

I went to Eternal Extravaganza and went 3-3 before deciding to drop. I decided to play the 4C Enchantress list which felt very spicy. I knew that I needed to register Doomwake Giant because I knew D&T was everywhere but I think I still underestimated it. There was so much of it in the room. I did however want to do just a very short write up of my experiences.

2-0 vs. Merfolk

Nothing special going on here, this is a good matchup in general and I had no problem once I landed a Sphere of Safety.


0-2 vs. TES

I saw I was paired against A.J. Kerrigan so I knew I'd be playing against Storm and probably TES. I won the die roll and kept a hand with RIP (because there isn't much I even have to keep in G1) but after I spend my T1 playing an acceleration piece he goes off to Ad Naus but can't piece together the actual kill. I play RIP on T2 and pass back but he doesn't have too much trouble chaining spells to kill me when he untaps. In game 2 my opening hand has two Leylines but no lands. I contemplate keeping it but ultimately decide to ship it. My 6 has a RIP and Stony Silence so I keep it knowing I'm unlikely to win anyway. I play an accleraation piece and pass but he goes off and kills me on his T1.

2-0 vs. Shardless

Nothing too interesting in this game either. I still think this matchup is very swingy in either direction as either we lock them out of the game quickly or they do so to us. I'm glad I put RIP back maindeck from my online testing because it's so critical to win this matchup.


0-2 vs. Burn

I was a bit crestfallen to lose this matchup. It's certainly a very good matchup and obviously not un-loseable but I felt like I could've used this to push me to where I wanted to be in the standings. Game 1 I just kinda flooded out. In game 2 I kept a double Leyline hand but it wasn't able to do much when I couldn't find an anti-aggro piece and am getting beat down my Swiftspears as he bolts himself to trigger prowess.


2-1 vs. Miracles

I get wrecked pretty quickly in game 1. In game 2 we go back and forth and it is very exhausting because he played a Blood Moon which I wasn't expecting and had fetched some non-basics early on. I eventually find my plains and even though it takes a lot I am able to resolve a Sphere of Safety to protect me from an army of monks. In game 3 he mulligans to 5 and keeps a hand without a T1 play but scrys a land on top. I'm able to take advantage of the stumble enough when he has to Force my Stony Silence to keep his only hope in Top online and I get the engine going. He plays a blood moon at some point which slows me down for a moment but I land Nahiri to exile it and win from there.


1-2 vs. Eldrazi

I'll open by admitting that I made a game-losing misplay in G1 that wasn't caught by either of us players until a judge told me after the round ended. To be honest I was 100% okay losing once I found this out. I activated Nahiri's +1 ability with no cards left in my library to discard Emrakul and have her reshuffle. But as the judge pointed out to me Nahiri's ability finishes resolving first so I would've drawn from the empty library before Emrakul shuffles things back. The reason I didn't get an infraction is because my opponent conceded to discarding Emrakul and being able to reshuffle even though I had lost and you can of course concede at any time for any reason. Even worse I could've just discarded Emrakul to hand size limit the previous turn, I didn't have to try and dig to find Nahiri but I thought I could get a bit of extra value by doing so. I'm still a bit embarrassed over that misplay but these games were the most interesting I played all day. Anyway the reason it took so much effort to win that game in the first place is that my opponent had chalice on 1, 2, and 3 so I was using just a sphere of safety and Doomwake Giant to hold back any attacks while churning through my deck trying to play lands looking for Emrakul and Nahiri who both happened to be at the bottom. In G2 I got quickly beaten down (despite his mull to 5!) thanks to the now classic combo of TKS, Mimic, and Smasher. In G3 I land a T2 Blood Moon and am able to get 2 utopia sprawls on white and red to make sure that I'm good on mana. However without thinking I place a third Sprawl on green and that turns out to be a critical mistake. I can't find a Solitary, Worship, or Sphere of Safety and once I do I'm out of white mana because I had to spend it on the only enchantments I had in hand (sterling grove). So I'm unable to find the plains I need either. It was a bit messy and I'm pretty sure if I had put the 3rd Sprawl on White or Black I would've won because then I could have played Doomwake as well. After thinking about it for awhile I also think I could have won by searching up a Utopia Sprawl from the Sterling Grove but I missed the play at the time. Overall, this game was enough for me to choose to drop and just enjoy the rest of my day instead of trying to grind 2 more wins to prize out. With any luck I'll be back for SCG Baltimore with hopefully a better mental game.


Desklist


Enchantment (28)

4x Elephant Grass
4x Enchantress's Presence
1x Exploration
3x Mirri's Guile
2x Rest in Peace
2x Solitary Confinement
1x Sphere of Safety
3x Sterling Grove
4x Utopia Sprawl
4x Wild Growth

Sorcery (4)

4x Green Sun's Zenith

Artifact (1)

1x Helm of Obedience

Planeswalker (1)

1x Nahiri, the Harbinger

Land (20)

1x Bayou
7x Forest
1x Plains
1x Savannah
3x Serra's Sanctum
1x Taiga
1x Verdant Catacombs
4x Windswept Heath
1x Wooded Foothills

Creature (6)

4x Argothian Enchantress
1x Doomwake Giant
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Sideboard (15)

1x Banishing Light
1x Blood Moon
1x City of Solitude
1x Dread of Night
1x Gaddock Teeg
4x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Replenish
1x Rest in Peace
1x Sterling Grove
2x Stony Silence
1x Worship

[Megadeus]

Rough day bro. I'm probably gonna try out Nahiri some time here as well if I get a change since she's still easy to cast under my own moon. Do you ever find yourself wanting a banishing light main to hit chalices or anything?

[simdude]

Rough day bro. I'm probably gonna try out Nahiri some time here as well if I get a change since she's still easy to cast under my own moon. Do you ever find yourself wanting a banishing light main to hit chalices or anything?

I have actually been playing without Exploration for some time but I made the last minute decision to include it which meant something else had to go. Of course Banishing Light is super useful so I did miss it a bit maindeck. I want to be able to figure out a configuration that brings it back main soon. I think also if I'm not maindecking it maybe it should've been an O-Ring because I had a moment where I wanted to O-ring my Blood Moon and just win casting Emrakul.

[Megadeus]

Maybe I just was a little too high last night, but how bad is this?

4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantresss Presence
2 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Worldspine Wurm
4 Sneak Attack
2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Blood Moon
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
2 Nahiri, the Harbinger
3 Mirri's Guile
3 Elephant Grass
2 City of Solitude

I like the thought of making a pile of mana and casting green Sun for the wurm

[Fjaulnir]

Maybe I just was a little too high last night, but how bad is this?

4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantresss Presence
2 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Worldspine Wurm
4 Sneak Attack
2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Blood Moon
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
2 Nahiri, the Harbinger
3 Mirri's Guile
3 Elephant Grass
2 City of Solitude

I like the thought of making a pile of mana and casting green Sun for the wurm



I love the idea :D

[The_Dingo]

Went 3-1 at FNM last night with enchantress. I beat junk rock 2-1, lost to jund 1-2 then beat UW standstill and lands 2-0. In game 2 against lands my opponent ghost quartered me off all my basics, but I was able to keep casting spells because of Eladamri's vineyard. I sandbagged a serra's sanctum until I found RiP/helm and cast both to win in the same turn.

If you haven't tried eladamri's vineyard before I highly recommend it. It gives the deck a ton of velocity, and it helps beat mana denial in the form of ports and ghost quarters. After quite a few games with it I'd say that it's uncommon for an opponent to be able to effectively use the extra green mana in any meaningful way.

After the event I picked up a pair of peacekeepers to try in the sideboard.

4 argothian enchantress
4 enchantress' presence
4 green sun's zenith
1 doomwake giant
1 emrakul
1 sigil of the empty throne
1 replenish
4 elephant grass
3 solitary confinement
3 sterling grove
2 mirri's guile
1 banishing light
4 wild growth
4 utopia sprawl
2 eladamri's vineyard
1 exploration

4 windswept heath
2 wooded foothills
1 plains
1 dryad arbor
1 bayou
1 savannah
1 karakas
1 nykthos
3 serra's sanctum
5 forest

4 leyline of sanctity
2 RiP
1 helm
2 journey to nowhere
1 humility
2 suppression field
1 gaddock Teeg
1 reclamation sage
1 dread of night

[Fjaulnir]

Doesnt it lose the game against many decks tho by speeding up the opponent a turn earlier than you? Especially those that also play green

[The_Dingo]

Doesnt it lose the game against many decks tho by speeding up the opponent a turn earlier than you? Especially those that also play green

I said pretty much this exact thing to Curtis when he suggested the card to me. But he has a way about being right about cards, so I tried it in a few weeklies, and based on the matches I played, the extra mana was outrageously good for me.
I did lose a game to Jund yesterday because of vineyard, where my opponent was able to hymn and goyf me on turn 2. But overall, I truly feel as if most decks don't have a good way to capitalize on the extra mana.

[Fjaulnir]

Since you played 3 nonblue decks in 4 rounds I guess that makes some sense.
Overall I'm more a fan of maindeck Carpet, as it doesnt help your opponent +scales up later in game + adds mana the same turn already, but that's in a meta that's usually between 55-65% blue.


Question to the people running Worships in their sideboards: do you bring them in against anything non-storm/emrakul/deathrite/miracles? (Out of my head the only decks that can either kill through Loss of life or remove Argothian)
That would still be a crazy 44% of the meta... is the card *that* good? Or are there other matchups where you won't want this.

[simdude]

Question to the people running Worships in their sideboards: do you bring them in against anything non-storm/emrakul/deathrite/miracles? (Out of my head the only decks that can either kill through Loss of life or remove Argothian)
That would still be a crazy 44% of the meta... is the card *that* good? Or are there other matchups where you won't want this.


I would bring Worship in against a Deathrite deck like Maverick or 4C Delver, especially if I felt like I have the room and could shave some main deck cards for it. It's mostly just there for the Eldrazi matchup though. When I was deciding on my sideboard for Eternal Extravaganza Worship was the last card I added and still debated if I shouldn't go with something else if that gives you an idea of how much I prioritize it. Something else would be perfectly suitable especially if you have a good read on the metagame. I just like it because it's a broad answer to many fair decks.

[Fjaulnir]

I would bring Worship in against a Deathrite deck like Maverick or 4C Delver, especially if I felt like I have the room and could shave some main deck cards for it.

Thanks for the answer! But isn't shaving maindeck cards usually the biggest problem? ;) at least against fair decks where I neither want to cut on ramp spells (unless you ditch Emrakul altogether) nor on protection/lock pieces - cutting some Grass against combo decks is of course easier. But despite Chalice I'd still want both Elephant Grass + Solitary confinement against Eldrazi etc.

[Megadeus]

Boarding is kind of difficult. My first to cut are my win conditions that aren't relevant to the match up. Like if I don't think I need a sweeper effect I'll bring out doomwake. Then I look to my lock type effects that aren't relevant, example is like grass or Sphere of Safety against a harder control deck or creatureless combo. Next I look to cut down on things like exploration, more so in matches that I don't think I need to assemble things sort quickly. Finally I'll look at the enchantress themselves. It's not very often that I cut them, but I think once I did cut a green Sun or two because I just felt like I wanted more different hate pieces. These are the matches where I feel like locking my opponent out is most important. Sterling Grove also gets shaved down if I don't expect my opponent to have much removal for my stuff.

[Fjaulnir]

Apparently 1 Enchantress deck made it into D2 in the SCG Open this weekend, meaning it ended at least 6-3 yesterday.

If anyone knows who the player is and/or which list he is on, that would be cool to know :)

[CptHaddock]

Apparently 1 Enchantress deck made it into D2 in the SCG Open this weekend, meaning it ended at least 6-3 yesterday.

If anyone knows who the player is and/or which list he is on, that would be cool to know :)

I believe it was Jesse Hatfield on Junk Enchantress. Not sure about the exact list but it looked like he top 32'd so they'll probably post his list after the tournament. I heard it was pretty stock minus some leylines of the void in the sideboard.

[Fjaulnir]

I believe it was Jesse Hatfield on Junk Enchantress. Not sure about the exact list but it looked like he top 32'd so they'll probably post his list after the tournament. I heard it was pretty stock minus some leylines of the void in the sideboard.

Cool! I've recently also reverted to the black splash, after some months on just GW, so curious to see that configuration. Leyline could be what I'm still missing against some decks (albeit 2 back makes it hard to cast if it's not in your opener - but it has more synergy with Rip than Replenish which I still like to run 1x, so... mh.)



EDIT: the standings have him on 31th place so I guess you're right:
http://static.starcitygames.com/www/scg_events/files/20161106163315000000.html
(31 points meaning 10-4-1 [or theoretically 9-2-4], not bad at all for such a long tourney)

[The_Dingo]

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=109267

A few interesting decisions. 2 doomwake is a pretty clear statement that he's out for DnT blood, and I can't blame him. He's also decided to play without karakas, which is more than reasonable, and without dryad arbor, which I don't love, but understand. All in all, I like his list a lot.

[Megadeus]

That's about the exact 60 I sent a buddy the other day as what I'd play except exploration instead of carpet. I don't hate no karakas. It's not great. I've never run dryad arbor personally either.

[btm10]

Yeah, I really like the list, though I'd try to work a City of Solitude into the 75. Not a fan of Karakas or Dryad Arbor either. I think that you need a pretty compelling reason to run a nonbasic land in Enchantress.

Lands is ordinarily a pretty favorable matchup, but the adoption of Ghost Quarter over Port might make Sheltering Prayers or Spiritual Asylum worth considering.

[Fjaulnir]

I have considered a 2nd Doomwake so I can get behind that. Would suck for my wallet though, I'd need to buy a second beta bayou now :cry: :laugh:

Maindeck Carpet is definately something I agree with. Dryad I was trying both in and out, so that may be a good call (I just added it again after cutting it, I hate the 1 slot it takes from something else but I also hate having plenty 3-mana effects +gsz in hand and no Wild growth...)

[Megadeus]

Yeah, I really like the list, though I'd try to work a City of Solitude into the 75. Not a fan of Karakas or Dryad Arbor either. I think that you need a pretty compelling reason to run a nonbasic land in Enchantress.

Lands is ordinarily a pretty favorable matchup, but the adoption of Ghost Quarter over Port might make Sheltering Prayers or Spiritual Asylum worth considering.

Prayers helps against ports too from DNT. The asylum costs too much imo for it to matter

[The_Dingo]

Yeah, I really like the list, though I'd try to work a City of Solitude into the 75. Not a fan of Karakas or Dryad Arbor either. I think that you need a pretty compelling reason to run a nonbasic land in Enchantress.

Lands is ordinarily a pretty favorable matchup, but the adoption of Ghost Quarter over Port might make Sheltering Prayers or Spiritual Asylum worth considering.

I'm still a fan of suppression field for fighting mana denial from DnT and lands.

[Fjaulnir]

I'm still a fan of suppression field for fighting mana denial from DnT and lands.

And for being hilarious against miracles.

[Megadeus]

I'll have to pick up more fields. It's been so long since I've played them I forgot they existed.

[btm10]

I'm still a fan of suppression field for fighting mana denial from DnT and lands.

I think Field is great against Port (though City is obviously better), but Field is definitely better against D&T in general. I can imagine alist with 4 Field and 0 fetches, but that's probably too extreme.

[The_Dingo]

I think Field is great against Port (though City is obviously better), but Field is definitely better against D&T in general. I can imagine alist with 4 Field and 0 fetches, but that's probably too extreme.

I'm kind of against the idea of dropping all the fetches just because it makes splashing for black or red very challenging. Also, the first suppression field is awesome, but the value seems to drop off for fields 2-4. I think the right ratio of suppression fields to fetches is like 2-3/4-5, but then there are things to consider like having too few shuffles for Mirri's guile.

[Megadeus]

I still ran 4 fetches when I played field.

[H]

I still ran 4 fetches when I played field.

But 4 seems a little low for a third-color splash, right?

[Megadeus]

I normally run 5 with three colors, but it might be low. I rely pretty heavily on my Utopia Sprawls to fix mana. Plus I've been playing a single one of the one that draws a card and makes a land tap for any color

[btm10]

I always played 4 fetches with 2 Fields, I was just thinking out loud about whether a more prison-focused strategy might work.

[Megadeus]

With DnT and Miracles being so heavily represented maybe. Sterling Grove gets worse and Rip Helm is still playable but weakened. I rarely have had to play against Lands so I'm assuming it helps against them, but everyone says were already somewhat favored. And it's a Bone Flute against Eldrazi.

[Watersaw]

So I've been unable to play much at all for months (btw From Beyond is in fact terrible) but when I was active I was running 3 Suppression Fields with 5 or 4 fetchlands, GW because I'm cheap and afraid of 3-color decks. Might be a bit tight but I liked it.

If I ever do get to play again I'm gonna jam in some number of Thalia, Heretic Cathar and see what happens. Even if you're not in a creature deck slamming that turn 2 on the play seems brutal.

[Megadeus]

So I've been unable to play much at all for months (btw From Beyond is in fact terrible) but when I was active I was running 3 Suppression Fields with 5 or 4 fetchlands, GW because I'm cheap and afraid of 3-color decks. Might be a bit tight but I liked it.

If I ever do get to play again I'm gonna jam in some number of Thalia, Heretic Cathar and see what happens. Even if you're not in a creature deck slamming that turn 2 on the play seems brutal.

Why not just play Root Maze

[Watersaw]

Why not just play Root Maze

Asymmetry. Having to wait a turn to cash in a Sanctum sucks. Giving text to StP can be bad but there might be some merit to the body.

[btm10]

Went 3-2 at FNM last night, beating D&T, Aggro Loam, and Merfolk, and losing to Aluren and RUG Delver. Except for games 2 and 3 against Aluren and game 2 against D&T all of my losses were to mana issues that my opponents had nothing to do with. I cut down to 16 lands as a somewhat aggressive experiment and it was (predictably) too few. I put a Worship in my sideboard as a tutor target against Eldrazi and it was great. I'll post the list later if anyone's imterested, and will probably go up to 17-19 lands.

[Fjaulnir]

I have found even 20 lands to be often tight (mulligans, mana screw, etc, not getting to 4 mana for Moat/Worship against Eldrazi before I'm dead) but probably the perfect number for me cuz 21 seems too many, how do you guys survive on 17-18? :smile: (19 seems reasonable too but 18 or less seems few...)

[btm10]

I have found even 20 lands to be often tight (mulligans, mana screw, etc, not getting to 4 mana for Moat/Worship against Eldrazi before I'm dead) but probably the perfect number for me cuz 21 seems too many, how do you guys survive on 17-18? :smile: (19 seems reasonable too but 18 or less seems few...)

I've flooded on 19 before, and flooding poses all sorts of problems for this deck beyond just not having enough to do. I also like to try extremes when I'm changing how I build decks.

[Stuart]

20's felt right to me, but I used to run 19 with OK results. Can't imagine running any less than that, though.

Side note: has anyone run Surgical in their board? I just swapped 2 Brain Maggot for 2 Surgical, as there's reliably both graveyard and combo decks in my meta. Haven't tried it though and am curious to hear if anyone else has had luck with it.

[The_Dingo]

Went 3-2 at FNM last night, beating D&T, Aggro Loam, and Merfolk, and losing to Aluren and RUG Delver. Except for games 2 and 3 against Aluren and game 2 against D&T all of my losses were to mana issues that my opponents had nothing to do with. I cut down to 16 lands as a somewhat aggressive experiment and it was (predictably) too few. I put a Worship in my sideboard as a tutor target against Eldrazi and it was great. I'll post the list later if anyone's imterested, and will probably go up to 17-19 lands.

Yeah dude, let's see a list.

[lordofthepit]

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=109267

A few interesting decisions. 2 doomwake is a pretty clear statement that he's out for DnT blood, and I can't blame him. He's also decided to play without karakas, which is more than reasonable, and without dryad arbor, which I don't love, but understand. All in all, I like his list a lot.

Seal of Cleansing over Seal of Primordium is unusual. Do you think that's a typo, or is there a reason why Cleansing is better?

[Fjaulnir]

On the one hand the deck has more green sources, but I often find that due to Serra's Sanctum (sometimes also from a Sprawl on white or a basic plains/Karakas) I have extra white floating at end of turn that I have no more use for (as I only drew more green cards, which tie up 85-90% of your mana usage), so that *could* be a reason?

[lordofthepit]

On the one hand the deck has more green sources, but I often find that due to Serra's Sanctum (sometimes also from a Sprawl on white or a basic plains/Karakas) I have extra white floating at end of turn that I have no more use for (as I only drew more green cards, which tie up 85-90% of your mana usage), so that *could* be a reason?

Very possible, but I've noticed other lists consistently prefer Primordium over Cleansing. Plus on the narrow occasions where you can respond to a draw trigger with an Enlightened Tutor, the green cost is probably easier.

[Fjaulnir]

I prefer seal as well - if I'm going white I might as well run Aura of Silence instead. Just pointing out having excess white occurs far more often than having excess green in a build with 3-4 sanctums


May just have been card availability though.

When running more than one it would make sense to run a split, if you're expecting a lot of random revokers or so

[btm10]

Very possible, but I've noticed other lists consistently prefer Primordium over Cleansing. Plus on the narrow occasions where you can respond to a draw trigger with an Enlightened Tutor, the green cost is probably easier.


It might just be that he's always played Cleansing and hasn't prioritized 'upgrading' to Primordium. I don't think I switched until early last year, and I picked up the deck around...Invasion?

[The_Dingo]

Yay, a copy of enchantress in the t16 of the classic. List looks rock solid with very stable mana.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=109778

[Fjaulnir]

That city of trators is spicy...

[Megadeus]

If I were a betting man I would assume that's a City of Solitude, not a City of Traitors

[Blastoderm]

Yay, a copy of enchantress in the t16 of the classic. List looks rock solid with very stable mana.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=109778

List looks almost like mine except I have an extra Sterling Grove instead of Eidolon of Blossoms.

[Fjaulnir]

If I were a betting man I would assume that's a City of Solitude, not a City of Traitors

That would make it more traditional indeed :) Deep inside I wish (except for my wallet...) that it would be some new tech to power out quicker & earlier Helms or Trinispheres against fast combo decks.

[Fjaulnir]

A *very* random idea that's probably bad, but how would a random Smuggler's Copter look in Enchantress?

Turns your Argothians into 3 damage, but mostly loots away all the excess lands we draw, or has good synergy with Replenish as well. Blocks Delvers as well.

[Stuart]

A *very* random idea that's probably bad, but how would a random Smuggler's Copter look in Enchantress?

Turns your Argothians into 3 damage, but mostly loots away all the excess lands we draw, or has good synergy with Replenish as well. Blocks Delvers as well.

I don't think that's the right direction to go, but even if it was, Enchantresses have 0 power. They can't crew things.

[Fjaulnir]

I don't think that's the right direction to go, but even if it was, Enchantresses have 0 power. They can't crew things.

Haha derp... somehow I had the 1 toughness in my head. Too bad, EnchantressCopter seemed like a fun way to fuck with your opponents' sanity all day long :wink:

[GoldenCid]

Hi i am an old school enchantress player going back to mtg. Impresions will be aprecitated. :smile:

4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
2 Helm of Obedience
3 Rest in Peace
4 Elephant Grass
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
2 Solitary Confinement
3 Mirri's Guile
1 Banishing Light
2 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sterling Grove
3 Serra's Sanctum
7 Forest
1 Savannah
1 Karakas
4 Windswept Heath
2 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Eidolon of Blossoms

SB: 1 Rest in Peace
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 1 City of Solitude
SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 1 Sphere of Safety
SB: 1 Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 2 Stony Silence
SB: 1 Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 Karmic Justice

[The_Dingo]

Hi i am an old school enchantress player going back to mtg. Impresions will be aprecitated. :smile:

4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
2 Helm of Obedience
3 Rest in Peace
4 Elephant Grass
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
2 Solitary Confinement
3 Mirri's Guile
1 Banishing Light
2 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sterling Grove
3 Serra's Sanctum
7 Forest
1 Savannah
1 Karakas
4 Windswept Heath
2 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Eidolon of Blossoms

SB: 1 Rest in Peace
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 1 City of Solitude
SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 1 Sphere of Safety
SB: 1 Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 2 Stony Silence
SB: 1 Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 Karmic Justice

The only thing that I don't like about your particular decklist is that there are only 2 GSZ. I like 3 or 4. With only 2 GSZ I think I would cut the dryad arbor because your odds of playing gsz T1 as a ramp spell fall off the fewer copies that you play.

I'd also drop the 2nd plains. I don't think that getting white mana is problematic between the fetches and the utopia sprawls, and white mana is just not as important in the first few turns.

I'm also a huge fan of the emrakul, because uncounterability is the tits against miracles. Otherwise they are likely to just counter all your win cons.

[nikostra]

Hi, I'm qualified for a small Invitiational in my local store. Only 16 players are going to play, some of them are pro tour level regulars, so there's going to be a very strong field. There are going to be 3 rounds of Legacy, among other formats. My problem is, that the only deck I've ever played in Legacy is Enchantress. Do you think it is a decent deck in such a small tournament?
Learning another deck now seems a bit rushed for me, even though Enchantress might not be the perfect choice... Usually Enchantress is in a very good position in our local tournaments, there are many DnT and Miracles decks and not a lot of combo, but I don't know how this will translate to the invitational

[GoldenCid]

Hi, I'm qualified for a small Invitiational in my local store. Only 16 players are going to play, some of them are pro tour level regulars, so there's going to be a very strong field. There are going to be 3 rounds of Legacy, among other formats. My problem is, that the only deck I've ever played in Legacy is Enchantress. Do you think it is a decent deck in such a small tournament?
Learning another deck now seems a bit rushed for me, even though Enchantress might not be the perfect choice... Usually Enchantress is in a very good position in our local tournaments, there are many DnT and Miracles decks and not a lot of combo, but I don't know how this will translate to the invitational

Once i got finals on a tournament similar than yours with enchatress. It's a solid deck if you pilot it as well. Has an answer almost against everything and often dazes your opo with it´s lost. Has a fast win condition if needed...nice deck.

[Fjaulnir]

Hi, I'm qualified for a small Invitiational in my local store. Only 16 players are going to play, some of them are pro tour level regulars, so there's going to be a very strong field. There are going to be 3 rounds of Legacy, among other formats. My problem is, that the only deck I've ever played in Legacy is Enchantress. Do you think it is a decent deck in such a small tournament?
Learning another deck now seems a bit rushed for me, even though Enchantress might not be the perfect choice... Usually Enchantress is in a very good position in our local tournaments, there are many DnT and Miracles decks and not a lot of combo, but I don't know how this will translate to the invitational

Enchantress with Replenish is pretty good against Miracles, and the black one with 2 Doomwake Giants is a rough beating to DnT as well if they can't lock you out turn 2 on the play or something, so GWb seems -imho- better fit to deal with Miracles and DnT than GW-Helm-Rip Enchantress which has more dead cards against these decks (but is stronger in a faster/combo oriented meta maybe).

Some decklists I'd have a look at to get some direction:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=109267
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14006&d=283069&f=LE (I would run 4 GSZ against Miracles though as your first 2 parts of the draw engine are likely to get countered. When being high on mana late game, try to zenith for x=7 against Counterbalance when/if you can, as that's the lowest CMC they can't counter off CB)
(I usually side out the 4th GSZ against nonblue decks that tax your noncreature spells but don't run counterspells like DnT, Eldrazi)

the Seal of Primordium maindeck seems very legit if you expect DnT + Miracles as it isn't dead against either, and is also good against many other nonblue fair decks. Doomwake deals with most fair decks as well, can be very good against f.ex. Delver with or without Young Pyromancer, with Carpet of Flowers being necessary against Delver decks though to power out a CMC 5 card.

[Freggle]

Hi, I'm qualified for a small Invitiational in my local store. Only 16 players are going to play, some of them are pro tour level regulars, so there's going to be a very strong field. There are going to be 3 rounds of Legacy, among other formats. My problem is, that the only deck I've ever played in Legacy is Enchantress. Do you think it is a decent deck in such a small tournament?
Learning another deck now seems a bit rushed for me, even though Enchantress might not be the perfect choice... Usually Enchantress is in a very good position in our local tournaments, there are many DnT and Miracles decks and not a lot of combo, but I don't know how this will translate to the invitational

It's been a bit since I have posted, but the GW Helm list with Suppression Field is favored vs. both D&T and Miracles. ...and is very decent against most forms of combo as well with Sphere of Resistance tech.




GW Helm

4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Enchantress's Presence

4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
3 Mirri’s Guile
3 Elephant Grass
3 Rest in Peace
3 Suppression Field
2 Banishing Light
3 Solitary Confinement
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

11 forest
1 Karakas
1 Plains
4 Serra’s Sanctum
4 Windswept Heath

SB
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Banishing Light
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Sphere of Resistance

[Megadeus]

You run sphere over thalia just because elfs?

[Fjaulnir]

Additionally you can also stack them (because Legendary), but the clock on Thalia seems nice too.
But Thalia can't get Krosan Gripped or Hurkylls Recalled (which many Storm players seem to be adopting again); bit can be Pyroclasmed etc which some combo decks will try against us.

[Freggle]

You run sphere over thalia just because elfs?

As Fjaulnir stated the effects stack. In addition:

- the requirement for casting is lower (no specific colored mana)
- also affects obscure but rising in popularity creature combo decks Food Chain, and Alluren
- there is a diversification of "threats"
- We don't scoop just to a pyroclasm, or just a hurkyls (if teeg is out, etc.)
- sphere is better than Ethersworn, or other 1 spell a turn effects because it hurts us less, and it protects itself better. a 3 mana Decay, or a 4 mana K. Grip is a lot for some combo decks.

Usually (2) Spheres and another combo killer i.e. Solitary, Leyline, Teeg, (sometimes RIP) and combo decks will scoop because the hate density exceeds there ability to fight it given the diversification.

[nikostra]

Thanks for the help :).
One more question: How do you combat Infect? I'm thinking Swords to Plowshares and Thoughtseize from the SB, is that enough?

[Freggle]

Thanks for the help :).
One more question: How do you combat Infect? I'm thinking Swords to Plowshares and Thoughtseize from the SB, is that enough?

4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Enchantress's Presence

4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
3 Mirri’s Guile
3 Elephant Grass
3 Rest in Peace
3 Suppression Field
2 Banishing Light
3 Solitary Confinement
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

11 forest
1 Karakas
1 Plains
4 Serra’s Sanctum
4 Windswept Heath

SB
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Banishing Light
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Sphere of Resistance

I have tested the following Infect Sideboard Plan:

-3 Rest in Peace
-1 Helm of Obedience
-2 Suppression Field

+3 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Banishing Light

You are not favored with this configuration. You are roughly 45% to win with this configuration.

What I would try today with the sideboard as is:

-3 Rest in Peace
-1 Helm of Obedience
-1 Banishing Light
-1 Solitary Confinement
-1 Green Sun's Zenith

+4 Sphere of Resistance
+3 Swords to Plowshares

This is tested quite a bit less, but has been successful.

The second method if you land Sphere of Resistance you're doing pretty good. It will buy you time. You can typically play it t2 through Daze as a result of a growth effect. Suppression Field will wreak havoc on their man lands, pandelhaven, and fetches. Swords can do clean-up duty through Sphere pretty well, and commonly not be treated by Force of Will as they will tap out trying to kill you and Sphere makes it cost 1.

In this method you can also tax early attacks very effectively with Elephant Grass. Use your early turns to tax and then build up your draw engine. 2 Sphere's is very hard for them to beat.

I don't play black so no Thoughtseize. If I knew the meta and expected infect I would sideboard Melira, Sylvok Outcast which can be fetched with Green Sun's, and still use the tax plan with spheres.

[The_Dingo]

Thanks for the help :).
One more question: How do you combat Infect? I'm thinking Swords to Plowshares and Thoughtseize from the SB, is that enough?

There was some talk a while back about testing peacekeeper as a solution to infect.

[Fjaulnir]

When playing Melira, don't attack with it though, they may fetch Dryad arbor to block + invigorate (happened to me, doh) or use Berserk as a removal spell on it

[Freggle]

There was some talk a while back about testing peacekeeper as a solution to infect.
Initially I thought Peacekeeper is not an ideal choice, but it is plausible that Peacekeeper could be a card that GW Helm wants to run.
GW Helm was designed, refined and tested on the same concepts that make the blue decks of the format good. Mana efficiency, card selection, and wide reaching disruption. In other words beat people with concepts and not silver bullets. i.e. create advantages in game states that hits the format, and not look for silver bullets unless the MU absolutely requires it. This is why the deck plays Mirri’s Guile (card selection) and Suppression Field (wide reaching disruption) over Sterling Grove, and looks to test Sphere of Resistance over more MU specific silver bullet cards.

In reviewing Peacekeeper under that criteria I thought Swords to Plowshares is just more efficient, and affects a wider breath of decks. Swords to Plowshares was originally brought into the deck to fight 4 main decks.

• Death and taxes
• Reanimator
• Rug Delver
• Elves

Peacekeeper is still an excellent sideboard card vs. Reanimator, and Death and Taxes post board, mediocre vs Elves (till decay was found) but vs Rug they would just bolt it. …but rug is winnable without plow, plow was just icing.

Considering that -1 Plow +1 Peacekeeper should be tested. Though I skeptical that the card would come up enough as a one of, and could be reliably cast in time to affect those compressed games. Hitting 3 mana 1 of which being white is a much tougher requirement for this deck than just simply hitting 1 mana in the first couple turns.

[I have a spreadsheet in the works that specifically breaks down all the probabilities of various Enchantress builds that would help explain this in great detail, but it's not ready and not a priority right now:(]

Having said all of that if I were to go into a tournament within a month I likely would keep the deck the same (more because I know how to play it) and hope for the best. If I suspected a strong likelihood of running into infect I would -1 Swords +1 Meliria just because it can be tutored by GSZ and would be equally as effective.

[Darklingske]

Participated in a small tourney (12 Peeps). Meta: TES, ANT, Lands, Aggro Loam, Turbo Depths, 2x Colorless Eldrazi, UW Ctrl, Miracles, Burn, Dredge and GW Enchantress.
R1 2-0 against Burn
R2 2-0 agains Lands
R3 1-2 gainst Eldrazi
R4 1-2 against Eldrazi
R5 2-0 against UW Ctrl
Just made T4 on tiebreakers.
Semis against Eldrazi (again).
G1 I have to mull to 5, but luckily my opponent doesn't have a fast hand and no T1 Chalice on 1. I stabilize on 1 life and he scoops once the Confinement + drawengine is online.
G2 I mull to 6 and see a decent hand, so I keep. My opponent again has a slow hand and I'm fairly quick in dropping a Confinement + 2 drawpieces. I finish it with RiP + Helm.
Finals are against Miracles, but we decide to split.

List was almost like Freggle:
4 Argothian Enchantress
1 Eidolon of Blossoms
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
3 Mirri’s Guile
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Sphere of Safety
3 Elephant Grass
2 Rest in Peace
3 Suppression Field
1 O-Ring
3 Solitary Confinement
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

10 forest
1 Savannah
1 Karakas
1 Plains
3 Serra’s Sanctum
4 Windswept Heath
SB:
3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Surgical Exraction
3 Sphere of resistance
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 City of Solitude
1 Banishing Light
3 StP
1 Seeds of innocence

[The_Dingo]

I played enchantress at 2 4-round events this week to very mediocre results. The list I'm playing, posted below, isn't really revolutionary, but the inclusion of MD creature removal alongside the suppression fields gives games a very different feeling. Despite the mediocre results, I think the direction I'm going is a good one overall.

4 argothian enchantress
4 enchantress presence
4 Green sun's zenith

1 emrakul, the aeons torn
1 sigil of the empty throne

4 wild growth
4 utopia sprawl
1 exploration

4 elephant grass
3 solitary confinement
3 suppression field
3 journey to nowhere
1 banishing light

3 Mirri's guile

8 forest
1 plains
4 windswept heath
1 savannah
1 dryad arbor
1 karakas
1 nykthos, shrine to nyx
3 serra's sanctum

The reason for journey to nowhere is that I keep seeing hard to beat hate bears like leovold, emissary of trest in the maindeck, and I'm not sure how to win if my opponent curves T1 drs into that dude. Journey can also be pretty good against BR reanimator, and I was able to steal a game 1 against sneak because of journey. I haven't played against delver with this deck yet, but I suspect that a journey for their insect will take a lot of wind out of their sails.

The suppression fields have been quite good against the fairer midrange decks that seem to populate my meta such as bant, esper deathblade and shardless.

Does anyone have any thoughts, questions, or advice for where I should take this thing next?

[Stuart]

Interesting approach! After getting frustrated with Sneak Show I thought about loading up on Banishing Light/Journey to Nowhere/Lignify effects myself, but haven't tried it. My initial thought is that StP might be a better choice than Journey to Nowhere. Obviously it's beneficial that Journey is an enchantment (because you can tutor for it and it synergizes with what this deck is doing). Likewise, StP gets caught in Chalice and doesn't help much vs Sneak Show. However, some points to consider:

- StP is cheap, so you can play it quickly. This is helpful against some of our bad fast-deck matchups like Infect, Elves, Reanimator, and even Delver, and it plays around Daze.
- It's possible you Journeyed something, then built a boardstate that felt favorable but ignored either that creature's effect or power. If your opponent Decays that Journey, you could be fucked by either that effect returning, or them suddenly having lethal on board.

So yeah, keep us posted either way.

[Megadeus]

Guess I'm playing this pile tomorrow night because I hate magic. I'll let you know if I can win a single game

4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Green Sun Zenith
4 Enchantress Presence
3 Need for Speed
2 Titania, Priestess of Argoth
3 Mirri's Guile
2 Primal Rage
3 Exploration
2 City of Solitude
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
2 Sigil of the Empty Throne
3 Sterling Grove

3 Serra's Sanctum
3 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Savannah
1 Taiga
7 Forest
1 Plains

[Stuart]

...the fuck?

Oh wait, that Titania/Need for Speed/Primal Rage loop is amazing.

[Megadeus]

Went 2-2. I killed with Titania 3 time I think? It was interesting. Having a quick win condition was cool. Beat Stoneblade and Miracles, lost to show and tell and stone blade. Should've beaten show and tell, but I never drew a third land to keep up my elephant grass + Sphere of safety.

[The_Dingo]

Went 2-2. I killed with Titania 3 time I think? It was interesting. Having a quick win condition was cool. Beat Stoneblade and Miracles, lost to show and tell and stone blade. Should've beaten show and tell, but I never drew a third land to keep up my elephant grass + Sphere of safety.

Have you given any consideration to monastery mentor over the sterling groves? The groves seem minimally useful in this version where there isn't really much to tutor for in the maindeck.

Your recent lists all look really interesting. Did you ever try out the sneak attack version of enchantress that you had dreamed up? That really caught my attention quite a bit when you first unveiled it.

[Megadeus]

Never got to test it. Might try soon though since I can borrow moons and sneaks now. The big thing I'm attempting to do is to make the deck actually able to possibly kill even when I don't have an enchantress, which is difficult to do. The real answer is probably more RIP Helm, but I enjoy off the wall things. One issue with mentor I find is that it turns on removal for the opponent which is another thing I try to avoid. With sneak attack and need for speed versions I have city of solitude to win on the spot undisrupted. Mentor doesn't really have that ability. Also I like the fact that Green Sun finds win conditions in those versions, finding Titania in need for speed and wurm in sneak. At some point I have the ability to just get super threat heavy. I've also thought a bit about splinter twin as a win condition, but I think that is worse than other versions

[The_Dingo]

Never got to test it. Might try soon though since I can borrow moons and sneaks now. The big thing I'm attempting to do is to make the deck actually able to possibly kill even when I don't have an enchantress, which is difficult to do. The real answer is probably more RIP Helm, but I enjoy off the wall things. One issue with mentor I find is that it turns on removal for the opponent which is another thing I try to avoid. With sneak attack and need for speed versions I have city of solitude to win on the spot undisrupted. Mentor doesn't really have that ability. Also I like the fact that Green Sun finds win conditions in those versions, finding Titania in need for speed and wurm in sneak. At some point I have the ability to just get super threat heavy. I've also thought a bit about splinter twin as a win condition, but I think that is worse than other versions

To the end of winning games even without an enchantress online, I've stolen quite a few games with the cards sigil of the empty throne and doomwake giant, because they are engines unto themselves, even without enchantress online. I agree that the most logical way to build the deck to win without needing enchantresses is to focus heavily on the RiP helm combo, but for some reason, I found these setups to be somewhat unsatisfactory, though it's been a while since I tried them.

Your sneak deck really captured my imagination, and I'm currently trying to figure out who to borrow cards from to try it. I like the idea of a singleton fierce empath to GSZ for to find the creatures you want to show in. That way you can minimize the number of fatties you have in the deck. It also seems like living wish could be a cool way of finding engine pieces, sneak fatties, or utility lands. I know living wish has been discussed previously, but seeing as this is a very different imagining of the deck it might deserve some renewed discussion.

Does anyone have any thought on how to beat BR reanimator? It has always been a challenging MU, but it was never super popular. Now it seems to be everywhere I turn, and they are all packing 4 reverent silence in the board, which makes me hesitant to rely too heavily on leyline of the void. I'm contemplating surgical, but this leaves me vulnerable to unmask/thoughtseize.

[Megadeus]

To the end of winning games even without an enchantress online, I've stolen quite a few games with the cards sigil of the empty throne and doomwake giant, because they are engines unto themselves, even without enchantress online. I agree that the most logical way to build the deck to win without needing enchantresses is to focus heavily on the RiP helm combo, but for some reason, I found these setups to be somewhat unsatisfactory, though it's been a while since I tried them.

Your sneak deck really captured my imagination, and I'm currently trying to figure out who to borrow cards from to try it. I like the idea of a singleton fierce empath to GSZ for to find the creatures you want to show in. That way you can minimize the number of fatties you have in the deck. It also seems like living wish could be a cool way of finding engine pieces, sneak fatties, or utility lands. I know living wish has been discussed previously, but seeing as this is a very different imagining of the deck it might deserve some renewed discussion.

Does anyone have any thought on how to beat BR reanimator? It has always been a challenging MU, but it was never super popular. Now it seems to be everywhere I turn, and they are all packing 4 reverent silence in the board, which makes me hesitant to rely too heavily on leyline of the void. I'm contemplating surgical, but this leaves me vulnerable to unmask/thoughtseize.

Hmm... I never really considered wish or empath. Gonna have to give those some consideration.

As for BR, it's just a poop match up. RIP is slow and also gets hit by leyline. Planar Void exists bit same problem. If it's super heavy you just need to overload on grave hate or play a different deck probably.

[The_Dingo]

Hmm... I never really considered wish or empath. Gonna have to give those some consideration.

As for BR, it's just a poop match up. RIP is slow and also gets hit by leyline. Planar Void exists bit same problem. If it's super heavy you just need to overload on grave hate or play a different deck probably.

I have been contemplating some more out of the box solutions such as Orim's chant, but this sort of delaying tactic has to have a great follow up such as containment priest or RiP or they just kill you 1 turn after that.

The black splash offers thoughtseize against combo which is a very appealing option due to wider applicability. The black splash already appeals to me due to my love of doomwake giant and dread of night, but to support doomwake effectively I'd need to seriously rearrange my MD.

I really feel like I'm trying so hard to gain traction in some bad MUs while struggling to maintain an edge in other favorable or close MUs. I guess it's time to figure out what I'm willing to lose to, and hope to dodge. At least losing to BR reanimator is a quick and painless affair.

[Megadeus]

Agreed. I haven't seen many of the locals on BR reaniderp playing reverent silence. How common is that? If it's that big an issue you could always try crypt or something or even Scooze since you play 2-4 Green Sun

[The_Dingo]

Agreed. I haven't seen many of the locals on BR reaniderp playing reverent silence. How common is that? If it's that big an issue you could always try crypt or something or even Scooze since you play 2-4 Green Sun

I *thought* reverent silence was pretty standard tech, since everyone around these parts seems to have 4 in the SB. Scooze seems like a good follow up after they find an answer to whatever speed bump we initially throw in the way. Crypt seems too slow since they have often effectively decided the game on T1. I really feel like it has to be leyline OTV or surgical, then a strong follow up because otherwise we are just resigned to the fact that they will beat us on T1 in the 3rd game some relatively large amount of the time.

[Darklingske]

Played in our local Legacy Cup Final (+-60 participants) with GW- Helm.
R1: Bye
R2: 1-2 loss against Aggro Loam
R3: 2-1 win against Colorless Eldrazi
R4: 2-0 against D&T
R5: 2-1 against Shardless BUG
R6: 0-2 against Grixis Delver
R7: 2-1 against Aggro Loam
I end up 10th. MVP of the day was without any doubt Suppression Field.

[Stuart]

Congrats on the finish! Were you on the same list you posted a few days back? I'm interested in going back to Suppression Field, and curious if you think your list could sustain a splash (I like black for Doomwake).

[Darklingske]

Yes, the list was the same. Only difference was in the Sb, where I replaced the 3 Sphere of resistance with 3 Ensnaring Bridge, just to try against Eldrazi. They don't fit the gameplan, but I wanted something that survives All is Dust. In hindsight, they don't seem necessary, but there are some changes I would do to the MD.
Rip-Helm was often win more, and I'm gonna change those slots. Eidolon is a card I never used in the whole tourney and is ready for replacement too. I'm playing with the idea of going up to 4 Grasses, 4 Suppression Fields and 2 Doomwakes. 4 Cards out, 4 cards in. Manabase would become: 1 Plains, 1 Bayou, 1 Karakas, 3 Sanctum, 4 Heath, 2 Catacombs, 8 Forest. Still have to test it, so don't shoot if it's far from optimal :smile:

[The_Dingo]

Played in our local Legacy Cup Final (+-60 participants) with GW- Helm.
R1: Bye
R2: 1-2 loss against Aggro Loam
R3: 2-1 win against Colorless Eldrazi
R4: 2-0 against D&T
R5: 2-1 against Shardless BUG
R6: 0-2 against Grixis Delver
R7: 2-1 against Aggro Loam
I end up 10th. MVP of the day was without any doubt Suppression Field.

Nice! Can we see a Decklist? Maybe a Report?

I have found suppression field similarly effective over the course of the last few events I've played in.

[Fjaulnir]

As I 2-5d the same tournament (with 2 byes nonetheless :laugh: ) with a black 2x-Doomwake list similar to the one that top-32ed SCG Open Baltimore a few weeks ago, I felt like either going with Darklingskes Rip-Helm version in the future, or adapting mine to include more Suppression Fields although that makes running 3 colours (because no fetches) a bit rougher.

Interested to hear you're also considering dropping Rip-Helm in your version - I've never been 100% happy with it as wincon (and often avoided playing Helm after I dropped Rip, cuz I couldn't activate it in the same turn with 2 SFields out, and then won with Emrakul anyway)

[Freggle]

Played in our local Legacy Cup Final (+-60 participants) with GW- Helm.
R1: Bye
R2: 1-2 loss against Aggro Loam
R3: 2-1 win against Colorless Eldrazi
R4: 2-0 against D&T
R5: 2-1 against Shardless BUG
R6: 0-2 against Grixis Delver
R7: 2-1 against Aggro Loam
I end up 10th. MVP of the day was without any doubt Suppression Field.

Congratz on the win! Always great to hear of an Enchantress success.



Yes, the list was the same. Only difference was in the Sb, where I replaced the 3 Sphere of resistance with 3 Ensnaring Bridge, just to try against Eldrazi. They don't fit the gameplan, but I wanted something that survives All is Dust. In hindsight, they don't seem necessary, but there are some changes I would do to the MD.
Rip-Helm was often win more, and I'm gonna change those slots. Eidolon is a card I never used in the whole tourney and is ready for replacement too. I'm playing with the idea of going up to 4 Grasses, 4 Suppression Fields and 2 Doomwakes. 4 Cards out, 4 cards in. Manabase would become: 1 Plains, 1 Bayou, 1 Karakas, 3 Sanctum, 4 Heath, 2 Catacombs, 8 Forest. Still have to test it, so don't shoot if it's far from optimal :smile:

What is interesting about the removal of RIP / Helm. I see you scaled back on the copies of played Rest in Peace. I will note that if you land a RIP vs Grixis Delver or Aggro Loam (your two losses on the day) you are heavily favored to win.

P.S. Ever since adopting Suppression Field GW Helm has performed significantly better. It is largley what tilts Miracles and D&T MU's favorable.

P.P.S. If you want to beat all is dust GSZ for Gaddock Teeg

[Darklingske]

What is interesting about the removal of RIP / Helm. I see you scaled back on the copies of played Rest in Peace. I will note that if you land a RIP vs Grixis Delver or Aggro Loam (your two losses on the day) you are heavily favored to win.

P.S. Ever since adopting Suppression Field GW Helm has performed significantly better. It is largley what tilts Miracles and D&T MU's favorable.

P.P.S. If you want to beat all is dust GSZ for Gaddock Teeg

I know. Against Aggro Loam, he had the good sense to decay my T1 Wild Growth G1 which slowed me way down while he drew extra cards through Dark Confidant. I never saw a RiP, but he didn't use LftL alot in that game and DRS was pretty helpless due to the Supp Field. G2 was a fast win from my side. G3 I had to mulligan to 5 and a T1 Thoughtseize was the nail in my coffin.
The games against Grixis Delver were very fast. G1 saw a fast Pyromancer, followed by a Delver that flipped like a boss and me not finding any Grass. G2 again a mull to 5 wasn't the best start and this time to make things worse, he dropped Pyro, triple!!! Probed and landed a Gurmag Angler the next turn. Again no Grass or Confinement in time and that was it.

I wouldn't drop Supp Field, it was definitely the MVP of the entire tournament!

I'm rather thinking in changing the sideboard by including RiP (or Leyline ot Void) and Teeg. Which slots are still under deep analysis :smile:

[Megadeus]

How many grass do you play? In fair metas I'll sometimes simply play 4. At worst it cantrips. I just really hate losing to delver.

[Darklingske]

I played 3 Grasses, but I'm going up again to 4. My combo was (and still is) pretty infested with combo.

[Freggle]

How many grass do you play? In fair metas I'll sometimes simply play 4. At worst it cantrips. I just really hate losing to delver.

Just as a secondary note. Versus any Delver your board strategy of GW Helm includes bringing in the 3 Swords to Plowshares, while maintaining your max MD attacking hate (3 Elephant Grass, 3 Solitary Confinement)

[Darklingske]

Just as a secondary note. Versus any Delver your board strategy of GW Helm includes bringing in the 3 Swords to Plowshares, while maintaining your max MD attacking hate (3 Elephant Grass, 3 Solitary Confinement)

Jep, that's what I did, but unfortunately I never saw one of those cards. Ah, variance, you are a fickle mistress :smile:

[The_Dingo]

I got demolished lst night with GWb enchantress. My list was...

4 argothian
4 presence
4 zenith

4 wild growth
4 utopia sprawl
1 exploration


4 elephant grass
2 solitary confinement
3 suppression field
2 journey to nowhere
1 banishing light

3 Mirri's guile
2 sterling grove

1 emrakul
1 doomwake giant
1 sigil of the empty throne

5 forest
1 plains
1 bayou
1 savannah
1 dryad arbor
4 windswept heath
2 wooded foothills
3 serra's sanctum
1 nykthos, shrine to nyx
1 karakas

The event was 5 rounds, and I got the bye R1.

R2 vs jund 1-2. This was a close and interesting MU. Game 1 I lose to a mull to 5. Game 2 I get hymned twice but through it all I stick an enchantress and a RiP, then eventually a sigil makes some blockers that become attacker. Game 3 I keep a hand with 2x RiP and the helm, but most of the lands I find are nonbasic and my opponent blows them up while pressuring my life total with bobs, DRS, bolts and a bloodbraid elf.

R3 vs omni show 1-2. Not a lot to say except that my opponent went to release some ants, revealing an emrakul on the clash. Then an emrakul of my own showed up on the top of my deck. So that was cool.

R4 vs bant blade 2-0. Game 1 my opponent had 4 force of wills, but I had more enchantresses and eventually establish the engine and make spaghetti. Game 2 my journeys are awesome against his meddling mage and canonist, but they got some hits in getting me to 7 before I exile them. TNN arrives, but I dig my way to a doomwake giant to put a stop to that nonsense.

R5 vs BR reanimator 1-2 He reanimates a tidespout tyrant, then a chancellor of the annex. Game 1 I scoop too soon when my opponent uses a dark ritual to pay for the elephant grass tax to attack with tidespout tyrant and chancellor of the annex. Then I remembered that he can't actually pay for the grass tax with that mana because of a timing issue. So I could have had one more turn to find removal or another elephant grass or solitary confinement. Oh well. I win game 2 because of early journeys and a sigil of the empty throne. Game 3 I scoop to a very early griselman.

More and more I'm seeing the merit in playing cards like sigil of the empty throne and doomwake giant. I've won multiple games/matches over the last week or so with no enchantress effects, but an early sigil (turn 3 or so) helped me stay in the game by making blockers that eventually smash.

Journey to nowhere only bit me once, when my jund opponent abrupt decayed it to get back a bloodbraid elf to lethal me. I'm still convinced that having the MD journeys is good. Storm has basically been replaced by show and tell decks, and by BR reanimator, so I think maybe I'll just make a 1 for 1 swap of leyline of sanctity for leyline of the void. Then I can try to emphasize the RiP plan out of the SB. Maybe something like...

4 leyline of the void
2 surgical extraction
2 rest in peace
1 helm of obedience
1 enlightened tutor
1 reclamation sage
1 replenish
1 humility
1 banishing light
1 dread of night

Or maybe I should be trying to move the RiP/helm back to the MD?

[Turboninja]

R5 vs BR reanimator 1-2 He reanimates a tidespout tyrant, then a chancellor of the annex. Game 1 I scoop too soon when my opponent uses a dark ritual to pay for the elephant grass tax to attack with tidespout tyrant and chancellor of the annex. Then I remembered that he can't actually pay for the grass tax with that mana because of a timing issue. So I could have had one more turn to find removal or another elephant grass or solitary confinement. Oh well. I win game 2 because of early journeys and a sigil of the empty throne. Game 3 I scoop to a very early griselman.


Would you please explain the Elephant Grass tax comment to a noob like me? Thanks!

[Fjaulnir]

Would you please explain the Elephant Grass tax comment to a noob like me? Thanks!

Elephant Grass happens at a point in the Declare Attackers step where neither player has yet received priority - priority only happens after attackers are declared already.

So it can only be paid with real mana abilities. So you can't activate Deathrite Shaman, can't untap Elvish Mystic with Symbiote etc, to pay for it, or cast a Ritual. Can't even sacrifice LED, eventhough it's a mana ability, because it's time restricted to when you can cast an instant. (had that happen against Belcher once while at 1-2 life :) )

[Megadeus]

I won a game because my elves opponent went off with cradles and stuff and got hoof and tried to pay with mana from his main phase. Then got Doomwaked. Elves players are chimps. I lost that match

[Qweerios]

Has Nahiri the Harbinger been discussed for this deck? What about Moat? Nahiri and Sigil both win over Moat.

[Turboninja]

Elephant Grass happens at a point in the Declare Attackers step where neither player has yet received priority - priority only happens after attackers are declared already.

So it can only be paid with real mana abilities. So you can't activate Deathrite Shaman, can't untap Elvish Mystic with Symbiote etc, to pay for it, or cast a Ritual. Can't even sacrifice LED, eventhough it's a mana ability, because it's time restricted to when you can cast an instant. (had that happen against Belcher once while at 1-2 life :) )

Thanks for the explanation. I'm hoping this comes in handy at the GP!

[H]

Has Nahiri the Harbinger been discussed for this deck? What about Moat? Nahiri and Sigil both win over Moat.

I've run Moat before. I'm sure others did in the past, as I have seen it earlier in the thread, but I think it's price tag often keeps it out of many decks. I had played to bring in versus Eldrazi, but every time I played them, I never got a chance to resolve it, the games really just ended with me getting locked out by Chalice on turn 1, or getting hit for 15 on turn 2, or other nonsense. Haven't played the deck in a while now though.

I think Nahiri was tried by someone a bunch of pages ago, in a list with Blood Moon. I don't recall hearing about it again though.

[Claymore1]

I think Nahiri was tried by someone a bunch of pages ago, in a list with Blood Moon. I don't recall hearing about it again though.

Mine?

I haven't been into any events lately, legacy where I am is practically dead. It's just the same few people playing. We just play test versus proxied decks every weekend. I went back to GW RiP / Helm build though, with 4 GSZ and 2 E. Tutors. Sideboard has things like 3 B. Moons, and P. needle, and as well as 1-off of Authority of the Consuls for decks such as sneak attack and elves.

[Megadeus]

Might have been my sneak attack moon list too. Dunno. Never got to test it. Again though, I think Sphere of Safety > Moat.

[Fjaulnir]

Thanks for the explanation. I'm hoping this comes in handy at the GP!

May be good to know though that most(?many?) judges don't know this instinctively - I've had a judge called on me twice for this, and in both cases they ruled in my favor but only after checking it online. So it helps to be confident about your position and appeal if necessary:smile:

[H]

Might have been my sneak attack moon list too. Dunno. Never got to test it. Again though, I think Sphere of Safety > Moat.

Might have been, I read a lot of things, everything ends up a blur after a while.

Indeed, I think Sphere is better than Moat in the abstract, but there are definitely cases where :1: less makes a dig difference, or where you are light on other Enchantments (say, because of Chalice) where "cannot attack" is better than "only if you pay X."

[Freggle]

Might have been, I read a lot of things, everything ends up a blur after a while.

Indeed, I think Sphere is better than Moat in the abstract, but there are definitely cases where :1: less makes a dig difference, or where you are light on other Enchantments (say, because of Chalice) where "cannot attack" is better than "only if you pay X."

I agree with Megadeus. If Enchantress wants to run this type of effect. I would want Sphere of Safety since it affects flyers. Enchantress is essentially a combo ramp deck with control (prison) elements. The jump from 5 or 4 mana in this deck is not the same as it is in most due to the draw power, and the ramp elements.

In the event that there aren't enough enchantments there is something else going very wrong, and the deck likely want a card to affect that thing (like Banishing Light or Oblivion Ring) to deal with that thing. If the threats your trying to stop are "going wide" or multiple p/t threats a single Sphere will still be effective since it counts itself. If it is a singular large threat, then O ring is better.

Since o ring / B light can play so many different roles the deck just really wants to play that card and forgo the whole Moat / Sphere if Saftey conversation all together and focus on landing an Elephant Grass or Solitary Confinement instead.

[Megadeus]

Idk. Sphere is another thing that I feel fine with dropping off of a show and tell whereas Moat is actually completely useless. Would've beaten a show and tell player last week had he not have had the show and tell on turn 1 on the play for emrakul. I think just that match-up is enough to sway me personally. Idk though. It's been a couple months since I played a real list. Either way it can't be decayed.

[H]

I didn't mean it as an either/or case, since I absolutely run Sphere main and only tried Moat in the side. It was really only for the Eldrazi matchup anyway, so effecting fliers wasn't a main concern.

[cheerios]

I went back to playing GW Helm from GWb. I like the consistency and simplicity of the GW build. Have any of you guys tried Nissa Worldwaker here? I wanna try it, not sure if it is a good idea or not.

[Freggle]

I went back to playing GW Helm from GWb. I like the consistency and simplicity of the GW build. Have any of you guys tried Nissa Worldwaker here? I wanna try it, not sure if it is a good idea or not.

I personally have not tested many planeswalkers because they do not play nice with Suppression Field, nor are they protected well from attackers with Solitary Confinement, or Elephant Grass.

[The_Dingo]

I took a drive down to a different store than I normally play at. I should have anticipated that the meta game would be different there, but I just played almost the same 60 that I played last time. The journeys were not good for this meta, but I still managed to pull off a 3-0.

4 argothian enchantress
4 enchantress's presence
4 green sun's zenith

4 wild growth
4 utopia sprawl

4 elephant grass
2 solitary confinement
3 suppression field
3 journey to nowhere
1 banishing light

3 Mirri's guile
2 sterling grove

1 emrakul
1 doomwake giant
1 sigil of the empty throne

5 forest
1 plains
1 bayou
1 savannah
1 dryad arbor
4 windswept heath
2 wooded foothills
3 serra's sanctum
1 karakas

SB
4 leyline of sanctity
2 containment priest
1 humility
1 banishing light
1 replenish
1 reclamation sage
1 dread of night
2 rest in peace
1 helm of obedience
1 enlightened tutor

The only changes from my last event were -1 exploration, -1 nykthos +1 journey to nowhere to bring me from 61 to 60 cards.

Played 3 rounds with this list today, finishing 3-0. My MUs were...
R1 2-1 jeskai stoneblade. Game 1 was very close. I'm on 1 enchantress for a long time with a True-name beating me down, but eventually I sigil, then turtle up under confinement to win the game at 2 life. I flooded on journeys, which were quite bad against his board of 1 true-name. Game 2 he has a counter for my singular enchantress, then I get murdered. Game 3 I have a wealth of enchantress effects, and even though he answers the first 2, I manage to run away with a win.

R2 2-0 miracles Game 1 he set up a counterbalance lock, but I was able to resolve a few spells through it, eventually cracking a sterling grove for sigil and making lethal amounts of angels. G2 was similar to game 1.

R3 2-0 miracles Game 1 double suppression field causes my mana screwed opponent to concede pretty early. Game 2 I have a pretty great start and stick a few enchantress effects, draw a lot of cards, and my opponent concedes.

Suppression field feels more and more like where we want to be. I find myself running it out before even playing enchantress in some MUs. Journey to nowhere was outrageously bad today, often sitting the whole game in my hand without a target. I think that the next time I play in this other store or for a larger even I would drop some of the journeys and play a replenish, 2nd banishing light, 3 sterling grove.

Oh, and they were also having a new years sale so I picked up a moat. It's pretty beat up, but the price was right, and it's a card I've always wanted to have for my collection.

[The_Dingo]

I wasn't able to attend the Gp, so I played enchantress again at another small weekly tournament, about 13 or so people for 4 rounds. Ended up 3-0-1 with an ID in the last round. I really like where my list is at, it feels very solid and streamlined with very little nonsense.


4 argothian enchantress
4 enchantress's presence
4 green sun's zenith

4 wild growth
4 utopia sprawl
1 exploration

4 elephant grass
2 solitary confinement
3 suppression field
2 banishing light

3 Mirri's guile
2 sterling grove

1 emrakul
1 doomwake giant
1 sigil of the empty throne
1 replenish

5 forest
1 plains
1 bayou
1 savannah
1 dryad arbor
4 windswept heath
2 wooded foothills
3 serra's sanctum
1 karakas

SB
4 leyline of sanctity
3 journey to nowhere
1 humility
1 reclamation sage
1 dread of night
2 rest in peace
1 helm of obedience
1 enlightened tutor

I had a moment of stupidity where I couldn't figure out whether my 15th SB slot should be moat, seal of primordium or 2nd dread of night. Instead I just didn't play a 15th SB card at all. Woops.

R1 2-0 vs DnT. I had no clue what my opponent was on when I kept a decent hand with enchantress mana and a doomwake, but I was pretty stoked to see turn one plains into mom. Doomwake makes quick work of things. Game 2 I mull to a very good 5 with an enchantress, basic lands, and e tutor to eventually get the dread of night. I got quite lucky and had great draws in this match.

R2 2-0 vs a very casual deck. The kid playing it was quite young and he is working on putting something a little more competitive together.

R3 2-1 vs Shardless. I mull to a very good 6, which becomes only ok after I get hymned. Luckily, my opponent doesn't have Lily to dispatch my first argothian, and I string a few enchantments together to find a 2nd enchantress and a solitary confinement, only after which does he find a Liliana (luckily for me). Banishing light eats the lily, and I find and resolve sigil to make a goodly amount of angels. After seeing hymns and Lilys I bring in the 4 leylines for game 2 but I leave the RiPs in the board favoring replenish instead. Game 2 I mulligan to a 6 which is pretty reliant on utopia sprawl for mana. He decays the sprawl, turning off sanctum and I have to take the super risky line of wild growthing the sanctum. Wasteland puts me back to the stone ages, and I die to shardless beats. G3 I keep a very good hand with leyline, ramp and enchantress effects. I get on board pretty early, but a squad of shamans are working on my life total until a pair of suppression fields turns them into glorified squires, and my opponent concedes just as time is being called.

Does anyone else bring in the leylines of sanctity against lily/hymn decks? I think that we really need them on the draw, but on the play I think it's reasonable to present basically the starting 60.

[Megadeus]

Damn. Was actually going to ask you about the Leyline question. I bring in 2-3. I was bringing in RIP Helm, but I'm beginning to think your suppression field plan is better. I was quickly dispatched by a shard less player in a side event over the weekend, and I think that with a middling miracles and shardless match up, fields are good right now. You play a fetch or two more than I like for field, but that's splitting hairs. I really like the list. May try it out. I tend to get bored and play far too cute of things. I think back on the Leyline question though, I think I like it. Liliana, hymn, and probably some number of seize and duress are cards you want to shut off. I always fall in love when I see this deck on paper. Then I play it and it makes me want to sell it.

[simdude]

So I've been taking a bit of a legacy break after some bad beats during EE5 and SCG Baltimore but I need to get back on the horse because I will be playing legacy in the SCG standard, modern, legacy team event coming up. Of course I might be overthinking this metagame which I'm sure will be very off normal since it's likely at least one player at the table isn't an expert in their format. So this brings me to the big question, what does Enchantress need to be successful right now?

First I'm concerned that the online metagame is becoming less and less representative of the paper metagame and I'm worried that this will greatly skew my testing but there's not really anything I can do about it.

I think the 4C plan I was trying during EE5 and Baltimore was interesting but it wasn't well suited to where the actual metagame is. I stand by the idea that Nahiri is totally a card we could potentially utilize but I'm seeing why Suppression Field is so important in this metagame after I've tried it again after a long hiatus on the card and I don't want to be mixing all of that.

This is the list I've been running online to something like a 3-6 finish in leagues so far:

Enchantment (29)
1x Banishing Light
3x Elephant Grass
4x Enchantress's Presence
1x Exploration
3x Mirri's Guile
1x Rest in Peace
2x Solitary Confinement
1x Sphere of Safety
3x Sterling Grove
2x Suppression Field
4x Utopia Sprawl
4x Wild Growth

Sorcery (4)
4x Green Sun's Zenith

Land (20)
1x Bayou
8x Forest
1x Karakas
1x Plains
1x Savannah
3x Serra's Sanctum
4x Windswept Heath
1x Wooded Foothills

Creature (7)
4x Argothian Enchantress
1x Doomwake Giant
1x Eidolon of Blossoms
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Sideboard (15)
1x City of Solitude
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Helm of Obedience
3x Leyline of Sanctity
3x Leyline of the Void
2x Stony Silence
1x Swords to Plowshares
3x Thoughtseize

Karakas doesn't seem like enough to fight through Leovold, 3x Leyline of the Void doesn't seem like enough to fight through BR Reanimator consistently even when trying to mulligan to it, and I'm not winning matchups like Eldrazi and Delver quite consistently enough to make up for all the new tech in other decks that is hard to fight through.

So before I start testing something radical/cutesy what do you think are the most important cards to have in the 75 right now? I think I need some number of Journey to Nowhere in the 75 and I'm very interested in the Sphere of Resistance tech but I don't know exactly what is weak right now. Maybe Thoughseize is bad as I have cut the number of fetches to play Suppression Field?

[Freggle]

So I've been taking a bit of a legacy break after some bad beats during EE5 and SCG Baltimore but I need to get back on the horse because I will be playing legacy in the SCG standard, modern, legacy team event coming up. Of course I might be overthinking this metagame which I'm sure will be very off normal since it's likely at least one player at the table isn't an expert in their format. So this brings me to the big question, what does Enchantress need to be successful right now?

First I'm concerned that the online metagame is becoming less and less representative of the paper metagame and I'm worried that this will greatly skew my testing but there's not really anything I can do about it.

I think the 4C plan I was trying during EE5 and Baltimore was interesting but it wasn't well suited to where the actual metagame is. I stand by the idea that Nahiri is totally a card we could potentially utilize but I'm seeing why Suppression Field is so important in this metagame after I've tried it again after a long hiatus on the card and I don't want to be mixing all of that.

This is the list I've been running online to something like a 3-6 finish in leagues so far:

Enchantment (29)
1x Banishing Light
3x Elephant Grass
4x Enchantress's Presence
1x Exploration
3x Mirri's Guile
1x Rest in Peace
2x Solitary Confinement
1x Sphere of Safety
3x Sterling Grove
2x Suppression Field
4x Utopia Sprawl
4x Wild Growth

Sorcery (4)
4x Green Sun's Zenith

Land (20)
1x Bayou
8x Forest
1x Karakas
1x Plains
1x Savannah
3x Serra's Sanctum
4x Windswept Heath
1x Wooded Foothills

Creature (7)
4x Argothian Enchantress
1x Doomwake Giant
1x Eidolon of Blossoms
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Sideboard (15)
1x City of Solitude
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Helm of Obedience
3x Leyline of Sanctity
3x Leyline of the Void
2x Stony Silence
1x Swords to Plowshares
3x Thoughtseize

Karakas doesn't seem like enough to fight through Leovold, 3x Leyline of the Void doesn't seem like enough to fight through BR Reanimator consistently even when trying to mulligan to it, and I'm not winning matchups like Eldrazi and Delver quite consistently enough to make up for all the new tech in other decks that is hard to fight through.

So before I start testing something radical/cutesy what do you think are the most important cards to have in the 75 right now? I think I need some number of Journey to Nowhere in the 75 and I'm very interested in the Sphere of Resistance tech but I don't know exactly what is weak right now. Maybe Thoughseize is bad as I have cut the number of fetches to play Suppression Field?

According to the DTB today the meta to beat right now is:

• Eldrazi
• D&T
• BR Reanimater
• Miracles
• Infect
• Shardless BUG

Key cards that I test regularly for each MU in GW Helm (I cannot speak to Black Cards)

• Eldrazi

Swords to Plowshares
Oblivion Ring
Banishing Light
Solitary Confinement


• D&T

Swords to Plowshares
Suppression Field
Oblivion Ring
Banishing Light
Solitary Confinement


• BR Reanimater

Swords to Plowshares
Rest In Peace
Oblivion Ring
Banishing Light
Solitary Confinement
Elephant Grass


• Miracles

Suppression Field
Oblivion Ring
Banishing Light
I do not commonly bring in Gaddock Teeg
I will use Swords to Plowshares if I suspect Meddling Mage


• Infect

Swords to Plowshares
Sphere of Resistance
Oblivion Ring
Banishing Light
Solitary Confinement
Elephant Grass



• Shardless BUG

Swords to Plowshares
Oblivion Ring
Banishing Light
Solitary Confinement
Elephant Grass
Rest In Peace
If discard heavy Leyline of Sanctity




Therefore in review I would get your Swords to Plowshares, Oblivion Ring, Banishing Light counts up, and consider a 3rd Suppression Field.



Does anyone else bring in the leylines of sanctity against lily/hymn decks? I think that we really need them on the draw, but on the play I think it's reasonable to present basically the starting 60.

There are many variations to Lilly decks. If I see a lot of discard especially Hymn to Tourach Yes. If not than usually focus on removal and redundancy, and rely on Suppression Field to mess with their lands, planeswalkers, and DRS's.

[Megadeus]

You need a way to beat leovold in the main I think. You can't ever beat that card and it comes down on turn 2

[Darklingske]

If Leovold really sees a huge uptick in play, then I think that we need to have some sort of removal MD, be it Silkwrap, Journey, O-Ring, Banishing Light, Stasis snare or Suspension Field. In the GW-version this seems easier then in the 3 or 4c-builds.

[The_Dingo]

You need a way to beat leovold in the main I think. You can't ever beat that card and it comes down on turn 2

Even before the GP there were quite a few people playing Leovold at my LGS, and now I think that number will grow. I played a few games against Leovold bant with the journey to nowhere version I was playing, and I found the journeys to give us a sufficient enough edge to remain competitive. I also found that they were quite a liability in several other MUs such as miracles.

I also found that it was still possible to win through Leovold on the table by racing with sigil of the empty throne or by landing a doomwake. Doomwake might not kill the leovold, but the decks relies heavily on x/1s, and nuking the board slows the clock substantially.

It's also possible although difficult to maintain a solitary confinement lock. The wording on Leovold lets you draw a card per turn regardless of when the card is drawn (unlike chains of meph or notion thief) so if you skip a draw step then you can still trigger enchantress to draw a card. It's a slow way to make progress but you gotta do what you gotta do, although I think this is a poor plan to go into the MU with.

My conclusion after a few games is that to adapt to a Leovold meta will require one of 2 things. Either
1) Maindeck removal spells
2) Less reliance on the enchantress draw engine. This means win conditions that don't require 15 mana and drawing the entire deck. And to find them will require a larger number of tutors/sterling grove, consistency cards like miri's guile or redundancy.

I've explored option 1 a bit and found that it weakens some MUs due to having a few dead draws in the deck, but it interferes only minimally with our main plan, and that we can keep the deck mostly the same as it was before.

My next step is to explore option 2 a bit. I see this as the option with the most potential to revolutionize the deck. But of course it might require drastic departures from the normal ways of building the deck which will probably entail losing quite a few games.

I guess I forgot option 3 which is to just keep on keeping on. It's probably honestly a fine approach unless Leovold decks come to occupy too large a meta share.

Does anyone have any thoughts regarding if fatal push will change the metagame at all, and if it does will it be good or bad for our deck? Will we see fewer copies of abrupt decay, or will we see more BUG players resulting in more decays overall?

[Stuart]

I've been playing 1 Banishing Light main and 1 in the board for a while, but now I'm going up to 2-3 main. I've played against a few Leovolds and Spirit of the Labyrinth, and I expect that to be enough to handle them. The card's rarely dead anyway, and having an extra out to Jace seems nice.

[Darklingske]

My conclusion after a few games is that to adapt to a Leovold meta will require one of 2 things. Either
1) Maindeck removal spells
2) Less reliance on the enchantress draw engine. This means win conditions that don't require 15 mana and drawing the entire deck. And to find them will require a larger number of tutors/sterling grove, consistency cards like miri's guile or redundancy.

I've explored option 1 a bit and found that it weakens some MUs due to having a few dead draws in the deck, but it interferes only minimally with our main plan, and that we can keep the deck mostly the same as it was before.

My next step is to explore option 2 a bit. I see this as the option with the most potential to revolutionize the deck. But of course it might require drastic departures from the normal ways of building the deck which will probably entail losing quite a few games.

Does anyone have any thoughts regarding if fatal push will change the metagame at all, and if it does will it be good or bad for our deck? Will we see fewer copies of abrupt decay, or will we see more BUG players resulting in more decays overall?
Option 1 is something I'm already doing and I don't think it is a big influence on some MU. On the contrary to me. It enhances some MU that are/were bad MU to doable MU. In a deck like Enchantress you will always have cards that are dead draws once the game progresses, so I'm not to worried about that.

Regarding option 2: are you thinking about more Sigils, or rather looking towards something like Sacred Mesa? I'm just spitballin' here, so don't take the suggestions as written in stone :smile:

Fatal Push: I think it will be heavily played (in every deck that plays B) and therefore I think that Decay will diminish. At least MD, in favor for Push. And if that really happens, Oh joy!! Less spells that deal with our stuff is always a great evolution for us. But an uptick in BUG also means more Thoughtseizes and Hymns and that is not a positive change.

[Megadeus]

Option 1 is something I'm already doing and I don't think it is a big influence on some MU. On the contrary to me. It enhances some MU that are/were bad MU to doable MU. In a deck like Enchantress you will always have cards that are dead draws once the game progresses, so I'm not to worried about that.

Regarding option 2: are you thinking about more Sigils, or rather looking towards something like Sacred Mesa? I'm just spitballin' here, so don't take the suggestions as written in stone :smile:

Fatal Push: I think it will be heavily played (in every deck that plays B) and therefore I think that Decay will diminish. At least MD, in favor for Push. And if that really happens, Oh joy!! Less spells that deal with our stuff is always a great evolution for us. But an uptick in BUG also means more Thoughtseizes and Hymns and that is not a positive change.

Uptick in BUG also helps out replenish. Not the wrist plan in the world

[Freggle]

My conclusion after a few games is that to adapt to a Leovold meta will require one of 2 things. Either
1) Maindeck removal spells
2) Less reliance on the enchantress draw engine. This means win conditions that don't require 15 mana and drawing the entire deck. And to find them will require a larger number of tutors/sterling grove, consistency cards like miri's guile or redundancy.


A couple of things you could do.


GW Enchantress used to play 2 Karakas you can play at least 2
Find a flex slot to play Crop Rotation to increase seeing Karakas
Play more Banishing Lights main
If it truly is an epidemic and Eldrazi and Leovold (or other sorcery speed multicolored spells) Ban Enchantress from existence we could always main Hall of Gemstone to hose them out of casting those cards (but I guess there is DRS now huh)



...if you wan to play an enchantress like deck with a good deal of maindeck creature hate that focuses on placing "cards in hand" as opposed to drawing them you could play GW Opal-Wave (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?30810-Developmental-GW-Opal-Wave&p=986662#post986662)

[Fjaulnir]

Just played 4 rounds of Enchantress on MODO, after facing 4!! Leovold decks in as many rounds I called it a day and couldn't bother slouching through one more round of Leovold decks...(was 1-3 so no gains to be made by playing anyway) Time for something new for a while like Pox - Leovold *that* bitchezz :wink:




EDIT: most frustrating wasn't just facing 4 Leovold decks, but really any bunch of random decks splashing for Leo... Play against RUG? Leovold you in the face. Play against 4C-Loam? Fooled ya, it's 5C Loam now. Waste your Karakas, Zenith for Leovold in the face.

[The_Dingo]

A couple of things you could do.


GW Enchantress used to play 2 Karakas you can play at least 2
Find a flex slot to play Crop Rotation to increase seeing Karakas
Play more Banishing Lights main
If it truly is an epidemic and Eldrazi and Leovold (or other sorcery speed multicolored spells) Ban Enchantress from existence we could always main Hall of Gemstone to hose them out of casting those cards (but I guess there is DRS now huh)


...if you wan to play an enchantress like deck with a good deal of maindeck creature hate that focuses on placing "cards in hand" as opposed to drawing them you could play GW Opal-Wave (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?30810-Developmental-GW-Opal-Wave&p=986662#post986662)

I like all 4 of these options. Locally, BR reanimator and sneak are popular right now, with lands being somewhat on the decline but still present, and a 2nd karakas or a crop rotation could help quite a bit actually.

On my previous outing I played 2 banishing light MD and 3 journey in the SB, and before that I was trying 3-4 journeys in the MD. I have been feeling increasingly pressured by 1 large creature rather than multitudes of them and the spot removal has been quite effective at blunting an opponents offensive. I almost always just play 4 copies of elephant grass because the card is so good, but if I'm playing MD removal spells maybe it's time to reevaluate this choice.

I just looked up hall of gemstone. Straight from gatherer "Colorless mana added to a player’s mana pool isn’t affected." so this unfortunately doesn't do a damned thing against eldrazi. I do like the idea of attacking the mana of the greedy 4 color decks, but I think blood moon, or root maze, or choke, or back to basics is the best way to accomplish this.

Leovold has the feel of a fad to it, similar to how legacy felt after True-name nemesis. In the weeks following the release of TNN it seemed like everyone and their grandma was playing 4 copies. After a few months the craze died down and there were fewer and fewer copies of the stupid card. I see roughly the same thing happening with Leovold, because not everyone wants to contort their manabase to play him. The only difference between then and now is that the true-name meta was great for enchantress, and this one blows for us.

[Snowfire]

What do you guys think of Dryad Arbor? I'm thinking about replacing it with a forest because I find it wastelanded pretty often. GSZ=0 and relying on the Dryad Arbor ramp seems like a big mistake sometimes.

[The_Dingo]

What do you guys think of Dryad Arbor? I'm thinking about replacing it with a forest because I find it wastelanded pretty often. GSZ=0 and relying on the Dryad Arbor ramp seems like a big mistake sometimes.

Dryad arbor is not a necessity by any means. Having a stable mana base is obviously super important, and dryad arbor destabilizes it a little. That said, I prefer to play it over basic forest because despite occasionally causing mulligans or a bad draw step, I think he is worth it. Having 3 mana by turn 2 is very valuable in order to get on board quickly, to play around daze, or to play through taxing effects (Thalia). And even if he eats a wasteland it still took time and resources from the opponent to do so, there is still an opportunity cost for the opponent including potentially not getting to wasteland a sanctum later in the game. Dryd arbor does also occasionally "block" an edict effect, or sometimes you get to fetch him up to block a careless attack by random x/1 hate bears like spirit of the labyrinth, notion thief, or even mother of runes.

some of these points, like the combat stuff, are pretty marginal, but I think overall dryad arbor is good enough.

[The_Dingo]

Option 1 is something I'm already doing and I don't think it is a big influence on some MU. On the contrary to me. It enhances some MU that are/were bad MU to doable MU. In a deck like Enchantress you will always have cards that are dead draws once the game progresses, so I'm not to worried about that.

Regarding option 2: are you thinking about more Sigils, or rather looking towards something like Sacred Mesa? I'm just spitballin' here, so don't take the suggestions as written in stone :smile:

Fatal Push: I think it will be heavily played (in every deck that plays B) and therefore I think that Decay will diminish. At least MD, in favor for Push. And if that really happens, Oh joy!! Less spells that deal with our stuff is always a great evolution for us. But an uptick in BUG also means more Thoughtseizes and Hymns and that is not a positive change.

I was in fact thinking about playing more copies of sigil or doomwake giant or even going whole hog on the helm/rip plan. I've never played sacred mesa, but it seems pretty bad to me at face value unless I am missing something?

I've been combing gatherer looking for answers to Leovold that don't get wrecked by abrupt decay (looking at you journey to nowhere). All I have so far are cards like exotic curse and boon of emrakul and even sinister concoction which I'm not exactly thrilled about. One of the stranger cards that I found is death match. Cast it then crack a fetch for dryad arbor or zenith for him, and the fact that the card is symmetric shouldn't matter very much to us. I wish seal of doom killed black creatures, then I'd feel all set.

[Fjaulnir]

I was in fact thinking about playing more copies of sigil or doomwake giant or even going whole hog on the helm/rip plan. I've never played sacred mesa, but it seems pretty bad to me at face value unless I am missing something?

I've been combing gatherer looking for answers to Leovold that don't get wrecked by abrupt decay (looking at you journey to nowhere).

Maybe... *drumroll* Abrupt Decay? ;)

No synergy with the deck, but at least it can't get countered so them discarding it before we cast it, is the only way they can save their Leovold (as opposed to Journey/STP/...). Has some value against Miracles too, or to slow Delver down. No other synergies with our deck though, and doesn't take Inkmoth, BR Reanimator creatures, where STP would be better. And too slow against Elves compared to STP/Dead Weight.


As to Sacred Mesa: used to run it back in the day, but it's indeed not good enough in the current builds.
However I had a pretty good run the other week with a 2x Humility 2x Sacred Mesa deck on MTGO just to troll people - went 4-1, lost to BUG Delver in the last round cuz I didn't maindeck Emrakul (because of Humility). Ran out of threats due to some greedy plays while I was already winning, eventhough he couldn't "win" anymore (apart from me decking myself 15-20 turns into the future).

[Freggle]

When it comes to Leovold I don't see it as an epidemic. It is a fad like Spirit of the Labyrinth, and Notion Thief are / were. I wouldn't distort Enchantress to the point of not functioning or go too deep on searching the Gatherer for obscure answers. If you play and it's unbeatable, then put the deck down for a while. When the fad passes pick the deck back up.

Having said that though Spirit / Thief fads I never put the deck down because those threats were not that bad. Was a blown out in a few games? ...sure. Did I loose multiple matches when I faced off against those cards? No.

I would still say that Spirit of the Labyrinth out of the Death and taxes board is a greater threat than Loevold is today because it a lower CMC and less conditional on the mana, and in the D&T shell the attacking of the manabase in the way they do it hurts. (This is why it's important to pack instant speed removal (STP) in the board. it is to use the mana in response to a Port activation.) Don't over think it. Load up on Banishing lights, Oblivion rings, Suppression Fields (attacking the greedy mana base), and Swords to Plowshares, and I bet you you'll win.

As for Dryad Arbor yes it can do cute tricks, and sometimes "blow people out" on a block, or fetched in response to a sac effect, but in all my testing of the card in this deck it is more of a liability than a boon.

[Fjaulnir]

I partly disagree, in that you can't compare Leovold to Spirit/Thief.

Spirit just stops your opponent from doing other stuff (drawing extra cards), without doing much beneficial for yourself except being a 3/1. Also it stops your own extra draws, so it can't realistically go into any blue decks.


Thief would be a better comparison, but 4 mana vs 3 is quite a big difference in Legacy, and Notion Thief only impacts opponent's cards that would draw them extra stuff - it does less against a lot of other stuff that Leovold is much better against: Wasteland/Port, Targeted Discard, Lili -2, Tendrils, has a double effect on Gitaxian Probe, even impacts random shit like Carpet of Flowers or Cavern Harpy/Parasitic Strix. Or think about running Leovold against decks trying to do stuff with Punishing Fire... :smile:


So sure, it *may* be a fad, but then rather like True-Name Nemesis: that actually also *won* tournaments, and it still pops up in a lot of decks from time to time. Spirit never had a big breakout win, nor is it played outside 1 deck. Thief never proved itself in any meaningful way either.


I do agree that Leovold itself is not a huge problem as we draw much more ourselves than the 1-2 cards we give them to try to remove him - the problem is that it also pushes people towards BUG colours, which Enchantress traditionally struggles against. Deathrite Shaman, Abrupt Decay backed up by an extensive counter package (not only FOW but also Daze, sometimes maybe Pierce), and potentially Hymn/Lili, that's just a collection of all the cards Enchantress in my experience has the biggest problem dealing with.


If I'd try Enchantress again these days, it'd probably be a more all-in Helm version with at least 2 Helms, and less on the ramp plan as in the possible new meta, going for Emrakul-wins is much less likely.

[The_Dingo]

When it comes to Leovold I don't see it as an epidemic. It is a fad like Spirit of the Labyrinth, and Notion Thief are / were. I wouldn't distort Enchantress to the point of not functioning or go too deep on searching the Gatherer for obscure answers. If you play and it's unbeatable, then put the deck down for a while. When the fad passes pick the deck back up.

Having said that though Spirit / Thief fads I never put the deck down because those threats were not that bad. Was a blown out in a few games? ...sure. Did I loose multiple matches when I faced off against those cards? No.

I would still say that Spirit of the Labyrinth out of the Death and taxes board is a greater threat than Loevold is today because it a lower CMC and less conditional on the mana, and in the D&T shell the attacking of the manabase in the way they do it hurts. (This is why it's important to pack instant speed removal (STP) in the board. it is to use the mana in response to a Port activation.) Don't over think it. Load up on Banishing lights, Oblivion rings, Suppression Fields (attacking the greedy mana base), and Swords to Plowshares, and I bet you you'll win.

As for Dryad Arbor yes it can do cute tricks, and sometimes "blow people out" on a block, or fetched in response to a sac effect, but in all my testing of the card in this deck it is more of a liability than a boon.

I agree to some extent that Leovold is a fad. But I disagree that spirit of the Labyrinth is a greater threat. Unlike notion thief and spirit of the labyrinth, Leovold is a maindeck playable card. It's blue, it's only 3 mana, the card drawing restriction is one-sided unlike SotL, and it's a solid value card which will usually provide at least a 2-for-1 and sometimes more. It also provides interaction for BUG decks against decks like lands which it previously had very little interaction for.

SotL on the other hand is NOT a maindeck playable card except MAYBE as a 1-of in DnT and maverick, so we don't have to worry about getting blown out by it game 1, and in game 2 we can anticipate and prepare for it. It is susceptible to being answered in a number of ways that Leovold is not such as dread of night, doomwake giant, or disenchant effects like reclamation sage, seal of primordium and aura of silence all of which are perfectly reasonable enchantress SB cards.

The hype around Leovold will die down eventually, but it will never go away, and unlike SotL or notion thief which barely ever see the light of day, he will see maindeck play. Therefore it makes sense, I think, to prepare some contingency plans to deal with Leovold in game 1.

I do agree with you that I am going over the top with scouring gatherer for obscure cards to deal with Leovold. It just so happens that I was recently thinking about how to build enchantress to win games even if the engine was disrupted, and Leovold provided some additional impetus to try out the things that I had been thinking about.

[The_Dingo]

I partly disagree, in that you can't compare Leovold to Spirit/Thief.

Spirit just stops your opponent from doing other stuff (drawing extra cards), without doing much beneficial for yourself except being a 3/1. Also it stops your own extra draws, so it can't realistically go into any blue decks.


Thief would be a better comparison, but 4 mana vs 3 is quite a big difference in Legacy, and Notion Thief only impacts opponent's cards that would draw them extra stuff - it does less against a lot of other stuff that Leovold is much better against: Wasteland/Port, Targeted Discard, Lili -2, Tendrils, has a double effect on Gitaxian Probe, even impacts random shit like Carpet of Flowers or Cavern Harpy/Parasitic Strix. Or think about running Leovold against decks trying to do stuff with Punishing Fire... :smile:


So sure, it *may* be a fad, but then rather like True-Name Nemesis: that actually also *won* tournaments, and it still pops up in a lot of decks from time to time. Spirit never had a big breakout win, nor is it played outside 1 deck. Thief never proved itself in any meaningful way either.


I do agree that Leovold itself is not a huge problem as we draw much more ourselves than the 1-2 cards we give them to try to remove him - the problem is that it also pushes people towards BUG colours, which Enchantress traditionally struggles against. Deathrite Shaman, Abrupt Decay backed up by an extensive counter package (not only FOW but also Daze, sometimes maybe Pierce), and potentially Hymn/Lili, that's just a collection of all the cards Enchantress in my experience has the biggest problem dealing with.


If I'd try Enchantress again these days, it'd probably be a more all-in Helm version with at least 2 Helms, and less on the ramp plan as in the possible new meta, going for Emrakul-wins is much less likely.

You got there first and you wrote it better. I agree with everything especially the last part about the ramp plan being worse than it used to be. But I dislike helm/rip and would instead opt for additional copies of doomwake or sigil or even words of war.

[Freggle]

I agree to some extent that Leovold is a fad. But I disagree that spirit of the Labyrinth is a greater threat. Unlike notion thief and spirit of the labyrinth, Leovold is a maindeck playable card. It's blue, it's only 3 mana, the card drawing restriction is one-sided unlike SotL, and it's a solid value card which will usually provide at least a 2-for-1 and sometimes more. It also provides interaction for BUG decks against decks like lands which it previously had very little interaction for.

SotL on the other hand is NOT a maindeck playable card except MAYBE as a 1-of in DnT and maverick, so we don't have to worry about getting blown out by it game 1, and in game 2 we can anticipate and prepare for it. It is susceptible to being answered in a number of ways that Leovold is not such as dread of night, doomwake giant, or disenchant effects like reclamation sage, seal of primordium and aura of silence all of which are perfectly reasonable enchantress SB cards.

The hype around Leovold will die down eventually, but it will never go away, and unlike SotL or notion thief which barely ever see the light of day, he will see maindeck play. Therefore it makes sense, I think, to prepare some contingency plans to deal with Leovold in game 1.

I do agree with you that I am going over the top with scouring gatherer for obscure cards to deal with Leovold. It just so happens that I was recently thinking about how to build enchantress to win games even if the engine was disrupted, and Leovold provided some additional impetus to try out the things that I had been thinking about.

Don't get me wrong. I don't want to stifle innovation, that's part of the reason I slowed down on posting here. I didn't want overpower the conversation which I think I was borderline doing before.

I will also admit I personally have not faced off against this card, and didn't fully understand how it worked. I did know it was one sided, but to be truthful I did not know it affected targeting any perm. I don't thisnk that matters much in how we approach it, but it does affect it's overall play-ability, and ultimately reduces its fad-ness.

Can you link a deck that this won the major tournament. I have not seen it.

Yes BGx decks have been an issue for GW enchantress specifically, but there are many different BGx decks. If it targeted discard, and no Deluge, or Golgari charm we're still in the clear. If there are sweepers and lilli it's not good times for GW Helm.

Either way In a meta where removal is a premium and RIP is good vs DRS and Goyf (assuming that's in the popular lists) I think I would try testing Enlightened Tutor main again. It could find both halves of the combo, or an oring if needed.

In an act of desperation there is also Humility that I have never really tested.

[Fjaulnir]

The Gp-winning list:

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14415&f=LE

But he's been showing up in any kind of deck that plays at least 2 of his colors. Tried him in Enchantress as well but adding a 4th colour lead to very awkward mana situations & other blowouts

[Freggle]

The Gp-winning list:

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14415&f=LE

But he's been showing up in any kind of deck that plays at least 2 of his colors. Tried him in Enchantress as well but adding a 4th colour lead to very awkward mana situations & other blowouts

Speaking specifically to that list it looks very beatable for GW Helm. Comparing it to RUG Delver [a better tempo strategy IMO] (daze, fow, waste package) we might loose the early game but stabilize late. If we land an early Enchantress effect I'd say were fairly golden. Their clocks are relatively slow, and 5 of them are susceptible to Rest In Peace, Suppression Field. Elephant Grass and Mirri's Guile would do work should we not land an early Enchantress effect, and buy us time to the cards we need.

Initial board strat is something like:

- 1 RIP
- 1 Solitary Confinement

+2 Banishing Light

You don't think you need STP, though it is used vs. Delver so it would take some play testing to prove out, but I think all the needed cards are in the 75.

Edit:
Latest GW Helm list can be found here for reference

[Snowfire]

I've been testing the deck for a few weeks now and really like it, but I still can't totally figure out good/bad matchups as you have an out to almost everything maindeck. I've found BGx decks pretty hard so far because of Lili, Decay and discard spells.

What are the good and bad Enchantress matchups in your opinion and how do you think it is positioned in the current meta?

[Fjaulnir]

I've been testing the deck for a few weeks now and really like it, but I still can't totally figure out good/bad matchups as you have an out to almost everything maindeck. I've found BGx decks pretty hard so far because of Lili, Decay and discard spells.

What are the good and bad Enchantress matchups in your opinion and how do you think it is positioned in the current meta?


Best matchup: Miracles (almost regardless of tuning/build you play)

Also favorable if tuned to beat these: Sneaky Show without Omniscience, Death n Taxes, Lands, Burn, nonblue creature decks
(all mostly depending on the build though, like Doomwake vs Helm/Rip or whether you're running Suppression field (Lands can't beat that :) Death n Taxes not easily either), or the amount of ORings for Sneaky Show)

'Medium' imho: non-BUG Delver variants

Really bad: Storm, Elves, Infect, BUG (more so than nonblue BG decks like Maverick which are very okay). Haven't played against it enough, but since BR Reanimator started adopting 4x Reverent Silence in the board, that has become very bad as well. Before the Reverent Silence tech I think I had well over 50%.



The very worst would be Storm/ANT; at least if you survive to 4 mana to resolve Humility Elves has a tough time beating you (as their main engine is Symbiote+Rec Sage for infinite asswhooping) but there are no cards that ANT can't deal with given a few turns to dig for answers.
Except maybe 2x Sterling Grove to go along your Leyline of Sanctity, but that's much less likely to get resolved (3-card 'combo') than just 1x Humility. I have lost to storm 2x in 1 match with Leyline + 1 Grove out...


But as you mentioned, T1 DRS/Thoughtseize + T2 Hymn + T3 Lili, paired with Daze/FOW backup just makes me cry myself to sleep :tongue: Leovold would only be the cherry on top here. Against nonblue BGx they don't have the Daze/Fow backup to stop Replenish or RIP/Helm after they emptied your hand, or cantrips to keep chaining the Decays/Golgari Charms reliably, so Maverick, Deadguy Ale, Junk Stoneblade or any other BGx is still in your favour imho.

[Snowfire]

Thanks man, that helped a lot!

The next tournament I am playing will be full of DnT, Miracles, Loam, Delver and probably also BUG.

How would you adjust the maindeck to that?

[Megadeus]

Thanks man, that helped a lot!

The next tournament I am playing will be full of DnT, Miracles, Loam, Delver and probably also BUG.

How would you adjust the maindeck to that?

RIP Helm main deck seems decent there. My Junk RIP Doomwake list loves that meta

[nedleeds]

D&T is absolutely not favorable game 1 if they draw Port and Thalia. Which normally the game for me goes something like, Port -> Vial, Tick -> Pass Port You, Tick -> vial thalia, port you. Flickerwisp your land with growths on it. Nice deck. Getting CoS out quick and Dread of Night game 2 can make it a game.

[Fjaulnir]

Facing Thalia+Port when on the draw is indeed neigh unbeatable. On the play you still have a chance against that (not unlikely to untap with 4 mana + land drop t3 after they t2 Thalia).

I guess this matchup could be the most play vs draw dependent of them all? Maybe together with Daze decks/Delver.


I usually mainboard 2 Doomwake + 2 Suppression Field and sb crap like Seeds of Innocence, Rec Sage, City of S, Sigarda (vs Cataclysm and good blocker in general) and extra creature removal (Stp or Journey; occasionally DreadoN or EPlague etc) so I do come extra prepared for this matchup. My local meta has like 33+% people whose main deck is DnT.

[Freggle]

D&T is absolutely not favorable game 1 if they draw Port and Thalia. Which normally the game for me goes something like, Port -> Vial, Tick -> Pass Port You, Tick -> vial thalia, port you. Flickerwisp your land with growths on it. Nice deck. Getting CoS out quick and Dread of Night game 2 can make it a game.

...are you playing Suppression Field main? If you were G1 D&T should be favorable. Affects ports, Mom, Vial, Waste, SFM, Equipment. ...and if played Mangara, Karakas.

[nedleeds]

Facing Thalia+Port when on the draw is indeed neigh unbeatable. On the play you still have a chance against that (not unlikely to untap with 4 mana + land drop t3 after they t2 Thalia).

I guess this matchup could be the most play vs draw dependent of them all? Maybe together with Daze decks/Delver.


I usually mainboard 2 Doomwake + 2 Suppression Field and sb crap like Seeds of Innocence, Rec Sage, City of S, Sigarda (vs Cataclysm and good blocker in general) and extra creature removal (Stp or Journey; occasionally DreadoN or EPlague etc) so I do come extra prepared for this matchup. My local meta has like 33+% people whose main deck is DnT.

I feel like against Daze / Delver my plan is to not get stifled, make land drops and get at least one growth off without being Dazed. Then force them to use their force if they have it on my enchantress effect. Of course if they are on the play and Delver, derp, natural flip sometimes you are pressured into getting Dazed and stifled and fucked because the card Delver is absurd. That being said D&T can proactively attack your basics and make growth effects less of a sure thing, which is more brutal. CoS helps, and Dread of Night really helps, in that match you are building towards grove / dwg and normally they can never ever beat that combination.

[Snowfire]

RIP Helm main deck seems decent there. My Junk RIP Doomwake list loves that meta

Do you mind sharing your list? I really can't figure out how to squeeze in both RIP/Helm and Doomwake to the maindeck without cutting other important stuff.

I'd like to try 3 RIP + 1 Helm and 2 Doomwake Giant (+2 Bayou?) in the maindeck, but I don't know where to make the cut. Do you have any suggestions reg my current list?

I also appreciate some sideboard help since I am new to the deck. (Especially black sideboard options if I include Dookwake + Bayou in the maindeck)

4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
2 Banishing Light
4 Elephant Grass
2 Solitary Confinement
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
3 Mirri's Guile
1 Savannah
3 Serra's Sanctum
4 Windswept Heath
11 Forest
1 Plains
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Rest in Peace
3 Suppression Field
SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 1 Nevermore
SB: 1 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 City of Solitude
SB: 1 Suppression Field
SB: 1 Humility
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Seal of Primordium
SB: 3 Swords to Plowshares

My fear with Doomwake is that - while it seems awesome vs. Delver and DnT - DnT can easily cut us off the black mana for Doomwake and Delver can still counter it. Do you think Doomwake is worth opening the manabase up for opposing wastelands because of Bayou?

Are there any mainboard options vs. creature decks other than Elephant Grass / Solitary Confinement? I sometimes can't hold Elephant Grass for long enough and don't get the draw engine going for Solitary Confinement.

[Megadeus]

Minus Sigil + Doomwake. I have Sterling Grove over field which helps find doomwake too. Field is really good against DnT though. Don't know if you need it plus doomwake

[Fjaulnir]

RE the BUG menace: going through some >3-4 year old decklists, I found some that sided 2 Spiritual Focus. Could this be some tech to helm improve the matchup against Hymn-Lili decks?

On the draw it won't stop a turn 2 Hymn, but it's very good against Liliana, and even not that bad against Leovold in case they have both online - as 99% of discard is sorcery speed, allowing us to still draw 1 extra card that turn.

Then again it does nothing if your opponent chooses not to play their Hymn and BS-shuffle it back, I guess that's still okay but it may just be sitting there on the battlefield doing nothing many games - or be an abysmal topdeck if they already T1 Thoughtseize T2 Hymned you.

[nedleeds]

Minus Sigil + Doomwake. I have Sterling Grove over field which helps find doomwake too. Field is really good against DnT though. Don't know if you need it plus doomwake

I'd rather be able to stand up fetchlands and filter with Guile and activate Sterling Grove than play a mana denial card in a deck with no other mana denial. I'm not sure why anybody plays field in this deck. It's bad. Stony Silence and Dread of Night + CoS do fine against D&T but it's hard to beat their nut hand on the draw.

[nedleeds]

RE the BUG menace: going through some >3-4 year old decklists, I found some that sided 2 Spiritual Focus. Could this be some tech to helm improve the matchup against Hymn-Lili decks?

On the draw it won't stop a turn 2 Hymn, but it's very good against Liliana, and even not that bad against Leovold in case they have both online - as 99% of discard is sorcery speed, allowing us to still draw 1 extra card that turn.

Then again it does nothing if your opponent chooses not to play their Hymn and BS-shuffle it back, I guess that's still okay but it may just be sitting there on the battlefield doing nothing many games - or be an abysmal topdeck if they already T1 Thoughtseize T2 Hymned you.

You're playing 4 Leyline. The LotV discard a card can be bad if it hits really fast, but if you have an Enchantress effect it should hurt them more. Sideboarded Rest in Peace can cripple their faster DRS draws. Leovold is a different story, he's an epic fisting and the reason I can't imagine Enchantress ever winning anything of consequence. Banishing Light is ok, since the card draw happens after resolution. Assuming you have Grove it's a decent solution. But some insane opener like DRS Go, Untap Leovold seems unbeatable on the draw.

[The_Dingo]

I'd rather be able to stand up fetchlands and filter with Guile and activate Sterling Grove than play a mana denial card in a deck with no other mana denial. I'm not sure why anybody plays field in this deck. It's bad. Stony Silence and Dread of Night + CoS do fine against D&T but it's hard to beat their nut hand on the draw.

Field definitely isn't bad. In combination with elephant grass it slows our opponent to a crawl, forcing them to decide every turn between attacking, advancing their board state, or activating an ability. Against DnT suppression field serves much the same function as city of solitude and stony silence combined, and unlike those cards it's still good in multiples.

I recommend trying the card, because it is insanely good at what it does.

[Megadeus]

Field definitely isn't bad. In combination with elephant grass it slows our opponent to a crawl, forcing them to decide every turn between attacking, advancing their board state, or activating an ability. Against DnT suppression field serves much the same function as city of solitude and stony silence combined, and unlike those cards it's still good in multiples.

I recommend trying the card, because it is insanely good at what it does.

I've played it. It can be good at times, but you lose Grove and you cut on fetches which kind of sucks. I've found that too often it does nothing. I like playing it because I enjoy making my opponent miserable, but I don't think it's overly amazing at the moment

[nedleeds]

Field definitely isn't bad. In combination with elephant grass it slows our opponent to a crawl, forcing them to decide every turn between attacking, advancing their board state, or activating an ability. Against DnT suppression field serves much the same function as city of solitude and stony silence combined, and unlike those cards it's still good in multiples.

I recommend trying the card, because it is insanely good at what it does.


in this deck. It's bad.

In this deck. It's bad. I want fetches and I want Demonic Tutor + Shroud everything.

I don't need to try the card because I've cast suppression field more then everyone on this board cubed. It's a prison card, enchantress is not a prison or resource denial deck. It's the worlds slowest combo deck.

[Darklingske]

I don't need to try the card because I've cast suppression field more then everyone on this board cubed. It's a prison card, enchantress is not a prison or resource denial deck. It's the worlds slowest combo deck.

Euhm, what?? I think you have it the other way around. We're a prison deck with a combo integrated. Grass, Confinement, RiP & Field all serve to deny the opponent his gameplan. We have a combo finish due to all the carddraw and interaction, but saying that we're not a prison deck is something I can't get behind.

[Megadeus]

Sure there's some prison elements to the deck, but in the end none of your cards do anything if you don't establish the engine like in a combo deck.

[ClimbGneiss]

I am NOT an enchantress player, but after playing against it for like 10 years I feel entitled to ask:
If you are worried about discard strategies, why not run more sterling Grove and replenish? Grove stops the decays and combos with replenish, replenish gets back your graveyard so basically it's a tremendous tempo shift if they've thoughtseized and hymned you, and enchantments can't be targeted by Deathrite (except, obviously, eidolon).

Regarding the suppression field discussion, I think calling it bad or good is sort of useless, right? Isnt it meta specific?
Field is something one would play in a meta littered with lands or miracles or dnt, I would think.

Finally, if leovold is a thing now. Do you sideboard extra doomwake or sigil? May seem like a weird comparison, but ANT plays extra tendrils in the board because versus miracles they shift to a more "fair" gameplan and cast multiple Tendrils over the course of the game. Maybe you could do the same with sigil / doomwake?

Anyway, I love enchantress even though I've never played it and up until leovold was printed I was sure it didn't see great results because it was underrepresented. Leovold... we will have to see how that plays out.

[nedleeds]

Euhm, what?? I think you have it the other way around. We're a prison deck with a combo integrated. Grass, Confinement, RiP & Field all serve to deny the opponent his gameplan. We have a combo finish due to all the carddraw and interaction, but saying that we're not a prison deck is something I can't get behind.

I think you have it the wrong way. Enchantress is a combo deck, the combo is an enchantress effect and ~20 of the most unplayable cards in Eternal. It's momentum / engine combo, the deck is filled with otherwise unplayable cards that become playable because they become cantrips. This forms the engine, many of them are +mana bad cards or at least mana neutral. This engine allows you to build a board presence and create enough permanents to win the game (Angels, Shrouded Doomwakes, Bears, Emrakul, RIP/Helm Combo). Grass isn't a Prison card, Confinement isn't a prison card, they are defensive cards, but not prison cards. Suppression Field is more of a Prison card, and putting it in a deck with no real other prison elements or a prison end game isn't great. Especially at the cost of the fetch, Guile interaction, and Demonic Tutor.

Here are some prison cards for you to explore as you expand your Magic horizons

Wasteland
Port
Thalia
Other Thalia
Sphere of Resistance
Null Rod
Stony Silence
Winter Orb
Thorn of Amethyst
Nether Void
Armageddon
Sanctum Prelate
Trinisphere
Chalice of the Void
Crucible of Worlds
Smokestack
Blood Moon
Ethersworn Canonist
Leonin Arbiter

they all in one way or the other deny the opponent resources or the ability to play the game on some axis

Rest in Peace could be part of a Prison strategy, Suppression Field is a prison card as well.

[Freggle]

I am NOT an enchantress player, but after playing against it for like 10 years I feel entitled to ask:
If you are worried about discard strategies, why not run more sterling Grove and replenish? Grove stops the decays and combos with replenish, replenish gets back your graveyard so basically it's a tremendous tempo shift if they've thoughtseized and hymned you, and enchantments can't be targeted by Deathrite (except, obviously, eidolon).

Regarding the suppression field discussion, I think calling it bad or good is sort of useless, right? Isnt it meta specific?
Field is something one would play in a meta littered with lands or miracles or dnt, I would think.

Finally, if leovold is a thing now. Do you sideboard extra doomwake or sigil? May seem like a weird comparison, but ANT plays extra tendrils in the board because versus miracles they shift to a more "fair" gameplan and cast multiple Tendrils over the course of the game. Maybe you could do the same with sigil / doomwake?

Anyway, I love enchantress even though I've never played it and up until leovold was printed I was sure it didn't see great results because it was underrepresented. Leovold... we will have to see how that plays out.

“Enchantress” is a deck with multiple personalities. There are versions that are more pure combo [UG Enchantress, GB Cadaverous Bloom] , and versions that are more prison [traditional GW], and there are versions that straddle between the two realms [GW Helm].

This conversation is really about which path GW should take, and personally without perfect information on the expected meta I don’t think there is a perfect answer.

GW Helm was developed on the concept that card selection and card draw was valued over card tutoring because it keeps better game tempo. This was so it could compete in a meta (at the time of development) that was dominated by tempo RUG Delver. The solution was effective. Therefore, at that time in development of GW Helm Sterling Grove was abandoned.
Then I piloted GW Helm in Orlando and started out 5-0 to finish poorly. I got beat by a strange version on Miracles with Mindbreak trap and Serenity, and tied and was beat by D&T. So we came back to retool the deck to beat those strats. That is when Suppression Field was adopted and was a huge success. I personally would be hesitant to remove it in the style and and the manner in which GW helm was developed for play. GW helm was the first GW version of Enchantress to adopt Green Sun’s Zentih This allowed the engine to more reliably be turned on without the support of Sterling Grove. This was again to improve tempo.

The adoption of GSZ, however, put GW helm in a more weak position against board wipes and edict effects. Board wipes tend to be a wash because the card draw over powers the wipe. Edicts when paired with Abrupt Decay, and Discard can be troublesome, and obviously Sterling would perform better here. The issue is in my personally experience of playing both traditional GW and GW helm, GW helm does better over the meta. Could this overall strategy be revisited? Yes, but if done correctly you will end up likely with either GW Helm, or Traditional GW if all those card selectins were made correctly in the first place. This is unless going completely divergent into something like GW Opal-wave in the N&D thread.

Overall, What I want to say is I don’t think anyone fighting for their position / cards are wrong. I do think the conversation isn’t framed correctly. Yet, overall the conversation is good. I think we should talk about certain cards in certain decks to combat certain metas or decks. I’m not sure we all understand those contexts today.

PS Leovold alone is not an issue. It's Leovold and the specific decks it promotes.

PPS BR Reanimator is a much bigger issue.

[Fjaulnir]

I'm also most interested in real results though (not ones weekly casual FNM 3-1 finish), so the actual math over the last 12 months on some of the discussed cards. Admittedly the meta has already changed a lot over the last 1-2 months, with Eldrazi and Miracles having lost like 50% of their MTGTop8 share compared to half a year ago, and DnT also being on the retreat again it seems. So these may not say much about the BUGgy future ahead, we'll see.

To make it easy on myself I'll just take all decklists of the last 12 months off MTGTop8.com, and add the 2 Hatfield brothers' decklist who made 31th in SCG Balt and day 2 in GP Louie for being such a strong finish (and more than comparable finish to someone top-8ing a 50 person tourney).

It may be unfair that some events don't get published on that site but so be it :smile:


Wincon:
Emrakul: 100%
Sigil: 80%
(70% maindeck, 10% sideboard)
Doomwake Giant: 50%
(40% with 2 copies, 10% with 1 copy)
Rip-Helm: 50%
(30% maindeck, 20% sideboard)


Sterling Grove total:
3 copies: 30%
2 copies: 30%
1 copy: 20%
0 copies: 20%


Sterling Grove maindeck:
3 copies: 20%
2 copies: 20%
1 copy: 20%
0 copies: 40%


Suppression Field:
2 copies: 20%
(10% 2 copies maindeck, 10% 2 copies sideboard)
1 copy: 20%
(10% maindeck, 10% sideboard)
0 copies: 60%



Most apparent trends imho:
-you should play Emrakul :wink:
-you should most likely play Sigil too
-Doomwake seems favoured over Helm maindeck (50% vs 30%) and 2 is the golden number; Rip-Helm is still added as part of a Rip/Leyline package post-SB in some succesful Doomwake builds.
-the sweet spot seems to be around 2 Sterling Groves currently, but if playing more adding some to the SB may be considered. Avg copies 1.7 (1.2 MD 0.5 SB)
-Suppression Field hasn't had many good finishes yet, only 2/10 decks playing it maindeck. Including SB spots that goes up to 4/10, so it seems mostly good situationally as a 1-2-off SB card (Miracles, Lands, DnT only in my experience - against other decks it's as often "Surprise, I win T2 against your DRS + hands full'a fetches!" as "Doesn't do anything, I lose!") but not worth a maindeck spot unless the meta is littered with the aforementioned decks.

(these meaningless "conclusions" are of course only for these working on the current iterations of the deck - if one thinks a completely new direction should be taken like Opalescence+Parallax Wave or w/e of course past statistics won't mean a damn thang)

[Fjaulnir]

For Funzies I've also compiled an excel just to see what the average of those decklists would look like.

Split up by version (Junk Doomwake or GW Helm), these are the average builds:
(based off the same 'last 12 months >40 people' off MtgTop8 + the SCG Open/GP day 2 lists)



Average Junk Doomwake deck would look like this:

10,4 creatures
4,0 Argothian Enchantress
3,4 Green Sun’s Zenith
1,8 Doomwake Giant
1,0 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
0,2 Eidolon of Blossoms

20,2 lands
5,4 Forest
4,0 Windswept Heath
3,2 Serra’s Sanctum
2,8 Other green fetch
1,8 Bayou
1,2 Savannah
1,0 Plains
0,6 Karakas
0,2 Dryad Arbor

29,4 enchantments
4,0 Enchantress’s Presence
4,0 Wild Growth
4,0 Utopia Sprawl
3,6 Elephant Grass
2,6 Mirri’s Guile
2,4 Solitary Confinement
2,0 Carpet of Flowers
1,8 Sterling Grove
1,0 Banishing Light/Oblivion Ring
1,0 Sigil of the Empty Throne
0,8 Sphere of Safety
0,6 Sensei’s Divining Top
0,4 Enlightened Tutor
0,4 Seal of Primordium
0,4 Suppression Field
0,4 Replenish

Sideboard: (only mentioning cards >0,4x representation)
4,6 Other
2,4 Leyline of the Void
2,0 Leyline of Sanctity
1,2 Thoughtseize
1,0 Replenish
1,0 Rest in Peace
0,8 Engineered Plague
0,8 Trinisphere
0,6 Enlightened Tutor
0,6 Dead Weight



Average GW Helm deck would look like this:

9,3 creatures
4,0 Argothian Enchantress
3,7 Green Sun’s Zenith
1,0 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
0,7 Eidolon of Blossoms

20,3 lands
7,3 Forest
4,0 Windswept Heath
3,7 Serra’s Sanctum
1,7 Savannah
1,3 Other green fetch
1,0 Karakas
0,7 Plains
0,7 Dryad Arbor

30,3 enchantments
4,0 Enchantress’s Presence
4,0 Wild Growth
4,0 Utopia Sprawl
3,3 Elephant Grass
3,0 Mirri’s Guile
2,7 Solitary Confinement
2,3 Rest in Peace
1,3 Helm of Obedience
1,0 Sterling Grove
1,0 Banishing Light/Oblivion Ring
1,0 Sigil of the Empty Throne
0,7 Carpet of Flowers
0,7 Exploration
0,7 Journey to Nowhere
0,3 Enlightened Tutor
0,3 Runed Halo
0,3 Sphere of Safety
0,3 Suppression Field
0,3 Sylvan Library

Sideboard: (only mentioning cards >0,4x representation)
3,7 Leyline of Sanctity
3,3 Other
1,3 Humility
1,3 Sterling Grove
1,3 Trinisphere
0,7 Choke
0,7 Enlightened Tutor
0,7 Gaddock Teeg
0,7 Journey to Nowhere
0,7 Banishing Light/Oblivion Ring
0,7 Suppression Field

[Freggle]

For Funzies I've also compiled an excel just to see what the average of those decklists would look like.

Split up by version (Junk Doomwake or GW Helm), these are the average builds:
(based off the same 'last 12 months >40 people' off MtgTop8 + the SCG Open/GP day 2 lists)



Average Junk Doomwake deck would look like this:

10,4 creatures
4,0x Argothian Enchantress
3,4x Green Sun’s Zenith
1,8x Doomwake Giant
1,0x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
0,2x Eidolon of Blossoms

20,2 lands
5,4 Forest
4,0 Windswept Heath
3,2 Serra’s Sanctum
2,8 Other green fetch
1,8 Bayou
1,2 Savannah
1,0 Plains
0,6 Karakas
0,2 Dryad Arbor

29,4 enchantments
4,0 Enchantress’s Presence
4,0 Wild Growth
4,0 Utopia Sprawl
3,6 Elephant Grass
2,6 Mirri’s Guile
2,4 Solitary Confinement
2,0 Carpet of Flowers
1,8 Sterling Grove
1,0 Banishing Light/Oblivion Ring
1,0 Sigil of the Empty Throne
0,8 Sphere of Safety
0,6 Sensei’s Divining Top
0,4 Enlightened Tutor
0,4 Seal of Primordium
0,4 Suppression Field
0,4 Replenish

Sideboard: (only mentioning cards >0,4x representation)
4,6 Other
2,4 Leyline of the Void
2,0 Leyline of Sanctity
1,2 Thoughtseize
1,0 Replenish
1,0 Rest in Peace
0,8 Engineered Plague
0,8 Trinisphere
0,6 Enlightened Tutor
0,6 Dead Weight



Average GW Helm deck would look like this:

9,3 creatures
4,0 Argothian Enchantress
3,7 Green Sun’s Zenith
1,0 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
0,7 Eidolon of Blossoms

20,3 lands
7,3 Forest
4,0 Windswept Heath
3,7 Serra’s Sanctum
1,7 Savannah
1,3 Other green fetch
1,0 Karakas
0,7 Plains
0,7 Dryad Arbor

30,3 enchantments
4,0 Enchantress’s Presence
4,0 Wild Growth
4,0 Utopia Sprawl
3,3 Elephant Grass
3,0 Mirri’s Guile
2,7 Solitary Confinement
2,3 Rest in Peace
1,3 Helm of Obedience
1,0 Sterling Grove
1,0 Banishing Light/Oblivion Ring
1,0 Sigil of the Empty Throne
0,7 Carpet of Flowers
0,7 Exploration
0,7 Journey to Nowhere
0,3 Enlightened Tutor
0,3 Runed Halo
0,3 Sphere of Safety
0,3 Suppression Field
0,3 Sylvan Library

Sideboard: (only mentioning cards >0,4x representation)
3,7 Leyline of Sanctity
3,3 Other
1,3 Humility
1,3 Sterling Grove
1,3 Trinisphere
0,7 Choke
0,7 Enlightened Tutor
0,7 Gaddock Teeg
0,7 Journey to Nowhere
0,7 Banishing Light/Oblivion Ring
0,7 Suppression Field

Thanks for the work on this Fjaulnir. I'm a bit surprised at some of the numbers. Still digesting it, but I wanted to thank yo for your time into this. Also to clarify, are the commas equivalent to decimal points?

[Fjaulnir]

Yeah in Europe 0,5 is American 0.5. If we use the dot, it's for thousands etc, 1.000 is a thousand/1,000.

The sample size is quite small (5 doomwake decks and 3 helm decks; 2 didn't run either) and it doesnt mean in any way that they are the best Enchantress builds possible atm - but may still be a good starting point for numbers on mana base etc.
(They are also averages, meaning that 1 deck running 4 fetches and 1 deck running 8 would make it seem like 6 is the sweet spot whereas that may just be coincidence and maybe 7-8 is still better when running 2 Bayous)

But one's got to start somewhere and at least I can now give people with no experience with the deck, some kind of basellne where they could start :wink:

[Snowfire]

I've been tweaking my list a bit with your help so far. Do you think this is a good setup vs. a field of mostly Delver/Loam/Lands/BUG/DnT/Miracles plus some random other decks?

4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Green Sun's Zenith

4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth

4 Elephant Grass
2 Solitary Confinement
1 Sphere of Safety

3 Mirri's Guile
2 Sterling Grove
1 Banishing Light

3 Rest in Peace
1 Helm of Obedience
2 Doomwake Giant
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
7 Forest
1 Plains
3 Serra's Sanctum
1 Savannah
2 Bayou

SIDEBOARD

4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Dread of Night
1 Engineered Plague
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Suppression Field
1 Humility
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 City of Solitude
1 Enlightened Tutor

[Jankalicious]

“Enchantress” is a deck with multiple personalities. There are versions that are more pure combo [UG Enchantress, GB Cadaverous Bloom] , and versions that are more prison [traditional GW], and there are versions that straddle between the two realms [GW Helm].

This conversation is really about which path GW should take, and personally without perfect information on the expected meta I don’t think there is a perfect answer.

GW Helm was developed on the concept that card selection and card draw was valued over card tutoring because it keeps better game tempo. This was so it could compete in a meta (at the time of development) that was dominated by tempo RUG Delver. The solution was effective. Therefore, at that time in development of GW Helm Sterling Grove was abandoned.
Then I piloted GW Helm in Orlando and started out 5-0 to finish poorly. I got beat by a strange version on Miracles with Mindbreak trap and Serenity, and tied and was beat by D&T. So we came back to retool the deck to beat those strats. That is when Suppression Field was adopted and was a huge success. I personally would be hesitant to remove it in the style and and the manner in which GW helm was developed for play. GW helm was the first GW version of Enchantress to adopt Green Sun’s Zentih This allowed the engine to more reliably be turned on without the support of Sterling Grove. This was again to improve tempo.

The adoption of GSZ, however, put GW helm in a more weak position against board wipes and edict effects. Board wipes tend to be a wash because the card draw over powers the wipe. Edicts when paired with Abrupt Decay, and Discard can be troublesome, and obviously Sterling would perform better here. The issue is in my personally experience of playing both traditional GW and GW helm, GW helm does better over the meta. Could this overall strategy be revisited? Yes, but if done correctly you will end up likely with either GW Helm, or Traditional GW if all those card selectins were made correctly in the first place. This is unless going completely divergent into something like GW Opal-wave in the N&D thread.

Overall, What I want to say is I don’t think anyone fighting for their position / cards are wrong. I do think the conversation isn’t framed correctly. Yet, overall the conversation is good. I think we should talk about certain cards in certain decks to combat certain metas or decks. I’m not sure we all understand those contexts today.

PS Leovold alone is not an issue. It's Leovold and the specific decks it promotes.

PPS BR Reanimator is a much bigger issue.

I have been playing enchantress for a little over a year now and love the brewing and adapting to the metagame process. I think you are right on the money Freggle with making sure we all understand the context. I think another category enchantress can fall into at times is a ramp deck as well. I find myself at times trying to find powerful cards from previous ramp decks. I like to test out a new card or two to see the impact on the metagame every time I play locally. I find myself gradually leaning towards wanting to play a control game grinding out the game with one for ones and just winning through card advantage. I was initially concerned with Leovold and modified the maindeck and sideboard to contain 4 Oblivion Ring and 3 Swords to Plowshares between the two to answer this concern. It has felt like an overreaction after putting it in to action. What I learned from this process was the control element of enchantress can be played at such a high level against decks with permanents. I played against 2 black/red reanimators last night winning against one and losing to the other. I was completely blind going into this matchup, and I noticed your pps about reanimator being a bigger issue. I sided in Leyline of Sanctity after seeing an Unmask. I wasn't sure whether it was really good or just okay against reanimator. Mindbreak Trap should help in the matchup. Here is the list I ran last night finishing 3-2 at our local 20 man event after losing my last round in game 3 to All Is Dust - of course I took out my Sigarda Host of Herons in sideboard for the night :)

4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
3 Mirri's Guile (want to go up to 4 in a more control version to dig to key pieces better. I want this as a turn one play 95% of the time.)
3 Oath of Nissa (has been solid. It has usually been getting me a Serra's Sanctum or either of my finishers)
3 Elephant Grass (This should never be less than a 3 of in any list.)
4 Solitary Confinement (I find this card to be too important to how this deck wants to play. I don't mind just playing it for one turn just to bubble. It doesn't need to be a sit and lock piece in your hand when you are running 3-4 of them.)
1 Garruk Wildspeaker (has been solid. Great against miracles. Also untaps Serra's Sanctum and an enchantment loaded land for a big mana acceleration turn.)
1 Ulamog the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Emrakul the Aeons Torn
1 Sigarda, Heron's Grace (good green sun's zenith target to make you hexproof. Also finishes out grinded games.)
3 Oblivion Ring
1 Sphere of Safety
4 Serra's Sanctum (this is the biggest dilemma I go back and forth between. It is such a key ramp piece and crucial to your heavy accelerated turns that I always want to hit it. I want to take out 1 for a Karakas, but I am still not sure if playing less than 4 of a card that seems like one of the key reasons to play enchantress is correct.)
4 Windswept Heath
1 Misty Rainforest
8 Forest
1 Plains
1 Savannah

Sideboard:
2 Drop of Honey (Still testing over the next month or so. Has been good at times against delver variants, death and taxes, and eldrazi. It does require you to not jam out your Argothian Enchantress immediately. Does lead to weird plays of chump blocking with Argothian Enchantress.)
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Leyline of Sanctity (I want to drop this to a 2 of or cut this completely. Have any of you cut this completely and noticed a heavy desire for it afterwards?)
2 Minbreak Trap (Is this more important than Leyline of Sanctity for our big trouble matchups? Maybe this is the 3 of)
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Pithing Needle (deals with Deathrite Shaman.)
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Oblivion Ring

I am not claiming any of my oddball pieces to be must includes. Just trying to figure out and test more cards for the enchantress deck. Have any of you had oddball pieces that you experimented with that you felt had some performance but others thought were poor choices? I would love to hear about them.

[Gozerfish]

My list I have been playing seems very similar to Snowfire's.

NAME:MyEnchantress
3 Elephant Grass
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Doomwake Giant
2 Mirri's Guile
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
4 Enchantress's Presence
2 Carpet of Flowers (On the fence about this, when good its really good)
2 Rest in Peace
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Enlightened Tutor (Instant speed, and can get Helm)
2 Solitary Confinement
2 Sterling Grove
3 Wild Growth (Gone back and forth replacing 1 carpet of flowers)
4 Utopia Sprawl
1 Helm of Obedience
3 Green Sun's Zenith (Find this dead card late in game, so I don't want to have too many.
4 Argothian Enchantress
1 Nevermore (Silver Bullet based on what they play)
1 Sphere of Safety


1 Plains
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth (Not bad with Leyline, Doomwake even if not fetchable)
1 Overgrown Tomb (Don't have a Bayou)
4 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Savannah
7 Forest
3 Serra's Sanctum
1 Karakas


SB: 1 Stony Silence (Artifact Hate)
SB: 1 Leyline of the Void (Needed for BR reanimator as RIP is too slow)
SB: 2 Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 Swords to Plowshares (single answer against infect)
SB: 2 Suppression Field (slow down miracles, but I have not seen this card be great and is a nonbo with sterling grove, but usually I have the mana advantage)
SB: 1 Humility (Eldirazi)
SB: 3 Leyline of Sanctity (Burn, Storm, also turns off Liliana's 2 and 3 ability)
SB: 1 Seal of Primordium (Combo hate, Aluren)
SB: 1 Dread of Night (Death & Taxes)
SB: 1 Peacekeeper (This card has bee really good, but people may say containment priest is better. I think this gives more flexibility against things like Elves.
SB: 1 Duress (Back and forth about this or thoughtseize, but other than Emrakul, I doubt I can see using this for a creature.)

Play a lot on XMage and this seems to be the right balance as I am not losing immediately to combo. The issue with going All In on RIP\Helm is you have no counterspell backup, and are applying no pressure. I think by having the second doomwake, it creates another threat, sweeper, and best of all its an enchantment.

Tried Eidolon of Blossoms, but there is a huge difference between cast and resolves. I know you can use Replenish, but not if you are looking to cut off the graveyard. Even without Helm, RIP neuters Tarmogoyf, Deathrite Shaman, and Dredge.

I might be convinced to have a 2nd O-Ring and possibly eliminate the carpet of flowers, but seems to be going well.

[nedleeds]

Sometimes Enchantress is sweet

https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16174740_319888661741454_4550723975371643429_n.jpg?oh=c35b2a3beeb66d38ee0c8abd3e34f045&oe=590AE7F0

[Claymore1]

Nice collection nedleeds.