[Deck] Solitaire (Enchantress)

[Forbiddian]

Maybe we're playing the deck differently or just run a few different cards (esp in the board), but I have a really horrible time against Aggro Control and Control (like ITF) and have a solid MU against all combo decks except TES.

The fact that TES is nearly auto-loss (without like MD 4x Orim's Chants) means that it's going to be uphill playing Enchantress.

TES will probably come up on as much as 20% maybe even 30% of the meta based on low relative cost and high performance against most decks.



Any tips against how to play against control? I typically try to lay out my Enchantresses (Wild Growth on turn 1 to play Argothian Daze-Immune, but if I only have Enchantress's Presences, I cast it on turn 2 whether I'm on the play or the draw). Then I play cards like Choke and Karmic Justice. Then I go into draw mode (assuming they countered my bombs).

It's kindof predictable, and really straightforward, and I think there's something I can do playskill-wise to improve my MU against Dreadstill.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

That's not even remotely accurate.

TES and Solitaire have completely different match-ups. Enchantress has a very good match against Dragon Stompy, and about even to favorable matches against most control and aggro-control (although game 1 can be rocky).

Basically, I was tired, hadn't played in a while, and the building was giving me KGB basement vibes, so my ultimate downfall I attribute to giving into The Fear.

I did have some bad draws and mulled to 3(not a good 3, either) on one occasion. But my real problem was playing the deck too defensively. The fact that my deck didn't bail me out of my subpar playing is less relevant, I think.

Although in testing I did find Team America to be an awful match-up. I want to test 4x Multani's Presence in the SB to try to answer that while still being flexible. Probably with 2x Choke and 1x Mesa as an anti-control suite.

With all the mana denial running around, Angel doens't seem as good.

[Forbiddian]

I don't see how the comparison is invalid between TES and Enchantress. Specific decks like Dragon Stompy or Dreadstill might prefer TES opponents to Enchantress opponents, but keep these in mind:

1) We lose to TES.
2) We beat the same decks (Aggro) that TES does, and we lose to the same decks (Control Suite) that TES does.

Therefore: The TES push will force aggro out of the meta (our good matchups) and replace it with TES (a disaster) or Control (not great, 50/50ish at best if we brought a good sideboard).


Unless there's a massive flock toward Dragon Stompy or something ridiculous that we happen to beat, it's pretty much guaranteed that Goblins, Zoo, Aggro Thresh and Aggro Loam are going to go down and Counterbalance-based control is going to go up. Enchantress survived on molesting Aggro completely in Aggro metas and then having a decent MU against Control. With TES out, I don't see how a meta favorable to Enchantress survives.


I don't know when Enchantress became a deck that preyed upon Control decks and lost to Aggro decks, but I guess it did?

[Jak]

I don't see how the comparison is invalid between TES and Enchantress. Specific decks like Dragon Stompy or Dreadstill might prefer TES opponents to Enchantress opponents, but keep these in mind:

1) We lose to TES.
2) We beat the same decks (Aggro) that TES does, and we lose to the same decks (Control Suite) that TES does.

Therefore: The TES push will force aggro out of the meta (our good matchups) and replace it with TES (a disaster) or Control (not great, 50/50ish at best if we brought a good sideboard).


Unless there's a massive flock toward Dragon Stompy or something ridiculous that we happen to beat, it's pretty much guaranteed that Goblins, Zoo, Aggro Thresh and Aggro Loam are going to go down and Counterbalance-based control is going to go up. Enchantress survived on molesting Aggro completely in Aggro metas and then having a decent MU against Control. With TES out, I don't see how a meta favorable to Enchantress survives.


I don't know when Enchantress became a deck that preyed upon Control decks and lost to Aggro decks, but I guess it did?

TES may rise in numbers, but then control and aggor-control numbers will rise as well. This means aggro decks will still have favorable MUs out there. The circle of aggro, combo, and control isn't as relevant today since the lines are so faded, but you can't assume TES will just take over. It still loses to its bad MUs.

Enchantress can be tuned to beat any deck (outside of combo) since it has so many tools. The cards I mentioned help a ton against control and aggro-control. You can even add one more, City of Solitude.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Except you don't fear the same sorts of things as TES. Team America, for example, is a bad match-up not because of the regular control elements, but because of the mana denial elements. You are much less vulnerable to Counter-balance and CotV than TES, and more vulnerable to fast pressure.

Also, I think you may be exaggerating the ascendence of storm combo.

[GreenOne]

The fact is, mana denial decks are often bad matchups of (8 land-auras)Enchantress. Even if they play Karmic Justice or even Sacred ground.

I confess, I did never test Enchantress in the post-AN meta. But I do believe that enchantress can be tuned to beat almost anything non-combo. You can just pack 3 MD Replenishes/Choke/City of solitude against counter decks, or play a lot of Karmic Justices against board control decks, or play loads of Moats/Solitary Confinaments against aggro. Enchantress just can't win against combo. The format is not, right now, combo-based, so enchantress is still a competitive deck IMO.

[Forbiddian]

Yes, of course you can fine tune Enchantress to beat anything. The fine tune that I suggested is going back to the black splash variant, which would help TES as much as possible and won't be so dead in the control meta as it was in the higher aggro meta.


Enchantress, like all other Tier 2 decks, is a metagame choice. A 10% shift in decks from easy-to-beat decks to hard-to-beat decks will really hurt our chances.

I think I do overestimate TES's impact, but if it has even half the impact I think it will (second place at Source should propel it into the spotlight even more), it'll make Enchantress look much different.

[Dr.AgOn]

I confess, I did never test Enchantress in the post-AN meta. But I do believe that enchantress can be tuned to beat almost anything non-combo. You can just pack 3 MD Replenishes/Choke/City of solitude against counter decks, or play a lot of Karmic Justices against board control decks, or play loads of Moats/Solitary Confinaments against aggro. Enchantress just can't win against combo. The format is not, right now, combo-based, so enchantress is still a competitive deck IMO.

of course, you can prepare your list against certain types of decks, but at the moment there are just too many overpowered decks compared to enchantress. and if you change the deck too much enchantress will be known as a Hate deck and not as enchantress anymore. only matchups we like are aggro and burn, right? we lose against all sorts of storm except solidarity and we especially lose against decks like aggro loam, team america, pox, stax, it's the fear and other decks with some kind of devastating destruction/disruption/damnation. i'm talking about lands.. it's gg as soon as our lands are wasted or our engine is discarded or countered. I've even lost against dreadstill and my build definetely wasn't fault nor did I make any mistakes regarding playstyle, mulliganing or boarding.

There's so much control and storm around i'd suggest just locking enchantress away until either WotC decides to balance Legacy so good ol' decks like enchantress and some aggro decks have a chance again or some new superspecialawesome mythic rares for enchantress show up.

I'm playing Goyf Sligh now. WITH BLACK!

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

of course, you can prepare your list against certain types of decks, but at the moment there are just too many overpowered decks compared to enchantress. and if you change the deck too much enchantress will be known as a Hate deck and not as enchantress anymore. only matchups we like are aggro and burn, right? we lose against all sorts of storm except solidarity and we especially lose against decks like aggro loam, team america, pox, stax, it's the fear and other decks with some kind of devastating destruction/disruption/damnation. i'm talking about lands.. it's gg as soon as our lands are wasted or our engine is discarded or countered. I've even lost against dreadstill and my build definetely wasn't fault nor did I make any mistakes regarding playstyle, mulliganing or boarding.

There's so much control and storm around i'd suggest just locking enchantress away until either WotC decides to balance Legacy so good ol' decks like enchantress and some aggro decks have a chance again or some new superspecialawesome mythic rares for enchantress show up.

I'm playing Goyf Sligh now. WITH BLACK!

Actually we beat Aggro Loam and Stax. I haven't tested vs. ITF but I woudn't automatically assume the game goes against us.

As has been said, the standard lists have an even to favorable match-up vs almost any control deck.

[Zach Tartell]

we especially lose against decks like aggro loam, team america, pox, stax, it's the fear and other decks with some kind of devastating destruction/disruption/damnation. i'm talking about lands.. it's gg as soon as our lands are wasted or our engine is discarded or countered.

I'm not sure if I'm reading this correctly, but I believe that you're saying that all of these are poor matches. Allow me to disillusion you:


Aggro Loam

First of all, here (http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?1lz9zmjnjnm) is a video (from the two-man tournament played over this summer)(it's a link to the video so don't feel weird when it links you to another site)(also, this other site is completely safe for work) that shows you almost exactly what Enchantress wants to do against Aggro-Loam.
If you're too lazy to go watch, the game plan is RESOLVE SACRED GROUND. Or, I suppose, play a copy of Sacred Ground in your board. That shit's mad important, although you can usually get by without it by dropping a Moat or something to stall game one (I'll freely admit that game one will be rougher than the following two) until you can set up a win off of WOW (as Pegasus tokens eat it to DD for 1).
If you'e not playing Sacred Ground you have the standard "3 Karmic Justice between main and board" plan, which I've found to be pretty potent. Although that doesn't save you from the sacrifice part. In short, friend, always run a copy of Sacred Ground in your board.

Team America

This is like Canadian Thresh, only their removial that can't be shot at your Enchantresses also can't be pointed at you. Their greatest threat (I'm treating Tombstalker as that for the time being, as you can chump Goyf with an enchantress if necessary) is also propper answered by Elephant Grass.
In short, here's the game plan:

Just walk into Sifle if you have to.
Always put your Utopia Sprawls and Wild Growths on basics.
Resolve Choke (Matt and I have both been advocating that as a 1-of pre board for a while now).
Now, while Choke is on the board, play Elephant Grass.
Make sure he signs the match slip before he goes to get pizza (universal code for "I done lost").

Seriously - it's like playing against Counterbalance Thresh, only he can't lock you out with Counterbalance. I wouldn't even board in the Sacred Ground.

Stax

Hold on. I want you to say this with me:

My deck plays 58 permanents, and two cards that brings every good card in the deck back from my graveyard. I will not complain of a poor Stax match.



Seriously. Chalice is answerable (as you should play 1 2cc and 1 3cc disenchant enchantment main deck, with a third of either CC in the board) and you generate dumb mana to get around 3sphere. Additionally, your curve starts at three.

It's the Fear

This plays Counter/Top (bad for you if they pack 3cc spells)(which ITF does), Deed, and an Intuition pile that ends up in recurring Explosives. But worry not! Here's the game plan:

Resolve Choke before he resolves EE@3 or Deed (with mana up).
Or, (I suppose this could go in front of that), get City of Solitude down (also played as a 1-of maindeck for years). This shuts down the Top part of the CB/T engine. So, he'll leave it at three like a chump, you'll play three Argothians, play a bunch of enchantments into Counterbalance, then play Replenish.
OR you could just resolve a copy of Karmic Justice and a copy of Sterling Grove (in order to prevent the savage "EOT Grip Justice, untap, rape your face with Deed" play).
Remember, you should be playing at least two copies of each card mentioned here.

You should be fine, grasshopper.

Disruption Decks (I'm going to treat this example as though it's mono-black/mostly-black aggro)

Elephant Grass
You could board a copy of Spiritual Focus (go ahead, look it up. I had to when Spatula suggested it forever ago). That really makes discard poor (but don't freaking argue that "well, they got rid of what they wanted to, so you had to draw a random card" trash. You gained life (important against aggro decks) and drew a card (important against decks trying to keep you hellbent).

....Damnation?

I can only assume that this means "Mono Black Control" decks. Which dont' have a way (save Nevvy's Disk or Oblivion Stone) to answer your enchantments. I pray to run into decks like this in tournaments.



God, I love lists.


EDIT: I suppose that I'll stipulate that Pox is a poor match (if they have white to answer your Sacred Ground). Otherwise, you just aren't trying hard enough, dude.

[georgjorge]

Resolve Choke (Matt and I have both been advocating that as a 1-of pre board for a while now).

I found that funny.


As an Aggro Loam player, I agree that the matchup is not that bad for Enchantress. But especially when I play six or seven discard spells + three or four enchantment destruction + three Dreams after boarding, I've found that I can often get the Enchantresses/Presences before they can start drawing their deck, and as we all know Enchantress without those cards out can not hold its own for long (as long as there's no Moat out).

[1maarten1]

Zach could you post your most recent list here please? :) (with sideboard :P)

thanks! Maarten

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

I found that funny.


As an Aggro Loam player, I agree that the matchup is not that bad for Enchantress. But especially when I play six or seven discard spells + three or four enchantment destruction + three Dreams after boarding, I've found that I can often get the Enchantresses/Presences before they can start drawing their deck, and as we all know Enchantress without those cards out can not hold its own for long (as long as there's no Moat out).

It should be stipulated that how many Ground Seals you're playing MD is critical in this match-up. The lists running 4x will find this match to be pretty favorable.

I mostly agree with Zach, except for Team America. Discard + Counters + LD + Pressure is a lot to ask this deck to deal with. I didn't get to test against it post-board however, and the list I was running at the time was not MDing Choke, which would be pretty critical in this match-up.

[Dr.AgOn]

@ Zach Tartell:
First of all, I do NOT need an instruction on how to play this deck!! I played this deck for at least 3 years now, always seeking for improvement, played on various tournaments and playtested a LOT. I always kept track of the latest developments in all kinds of forums, analysed tournament reports and tested cards some enchantress players from germany suggested.
Naturally, I play Sacred Ground. Allthough georgjorge doesn't favor the matchup against Enchantress, I still lost a game 2:0 against Aggro Loam. There's absolutely nothing you can do, once you're mana drained, engines discarded, can't play moat, only via replenish, cause you're screwed, you got a grass (no problem for him) with 3 counters on it and he's got 2 5/6 goyfs and a 7/7 crusher. Yes, chumpblocking is the answer. But not against TA, when he sinkholes your 2 enchanted basics and wastes and stifles everything else and you just have 1 draw engine in play. Think twice before chumpblocking here. 1 choke main solves the problem? I don't think so. Of course you board the Sacred Grounds, dude!!
Regarding the Stax debate. True, Trini isn't that bad for me. Chalice @ 1 no problem either, but once he's got suppression field, a chalice @ 3, trini and tanglewire in play and ghost qaurtered all ur basic plains it's quite difficult to turn the match round.
I would board blood moon against it's the fear. Nevertheless, the MU is hard cause Plan #2 (play all kind of shit and hope they counter it, so u can put all eggs in one basket and let it fall, cause they counter the replenish) usually doesn't work for several reasons.
1) Normal opponents are not dumb. They know what to counter and how many copies you got of that card.
2) You don't gain any advantage playing random enchantments when there's no engine!
damnation -> I rather ment global effects like diabolic edict, but then my cool alliteration would have lessened in it's effect.
Spiritual Focus is CRAP!!!! No, I didn't look it up, I know that card, own it, and played 3 copies in the board a long long time ago. Even Spreading Algae is better than that card. Focus is only good when u can play it turn 1 or 2 before your opn hymns you. Therefore you can't just "board a copy of Spiritual Focus". What's your strategy there? Mullying till I get one? tutoring it with grove? c'mon, get real.

@1maarten1:
Here's the list of MY current Enchantress if you want to look at it. I used to play 1 City of Solitude and 2 Enlightened Tutors main instead of the Spirit Guides. The board is meta dependant. I don't care much about trying to improve the storm MU by adding orim's chants. Rather play more cards that take care of more relevant matchups. Besides, sometimes Aura of Silence is enough.

// Lands
9 [UNH] Forest
2 [US] Serra's Sanctum
2 [UNH] Plains
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [B] Savannah
1 [B] Taiga

// Creatures
4 [US] Argothian Enchantress
3 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide

// Spells
2 [UD] Replenish
1 [ON] Words of War
4 [ON] Enchantress's Presence
4 [IN] Sterling Grove
4 [DIS] Utopia Sprawl
3 [JU] Solitary Confinement
4 [VI] Elephant Grass
2 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
3 [OD] Ground Seal
1 [OD] Karmic Justice
1 [MI] Sacred Mesa
2 [DK] Gaea's Touch
1 [LG] Moat
1 [US] Exploration

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [UD] Replenish
SB: 1 [JU] Solitary Confinement
SB: 3 [WL] Aura of Silence
SB: 1 [OD] Karmic Justice
SB: 3 [VI] City of Solitude
SB: 2 [7E] Sacred Ground
SB: 3 [TE] Choke
SB: 1 [9E] Blood Moon

[Jak]

I have been able to beat aggro-loam pretty easily by just fetching Sacred Ground as fast as possible. They can't dreams too fast or it ends up hurting them as much as it does you.

Play multiple enchantments at varying CMCs to beat CB. Oblivion Ring, Aura of Silence, and the Seals are great. Is there a 4cc enchantment to handle CB?

Beating blue is what your SB should be geared towards because that it a large percent of the format right now.

[Forbiddian]

Sacred Ground stops DD?

I always thought it had the same ruling as Karmic Justice. Damn, that's really good, I have to start running that now to beat AL.




Against Black discard, I find that Compost is better than Spiritual Focus.

1) Compost is great against Ichorid. 99 times out of 100, Ichorid is looking to untap after a crazy dredge. If they dredge and then pass the turn, you can destroy them. Obviously you have better bombs, but Compost is very strong in that MU and I usually have stuff I want to board out. Compost on turn 2 can often draw 4-5 cards and let me play down a double Elephant Grass or something before they can win. It also prevents them from dredging to set up a kill because it nets you just as many cards.

I hate Ichorid, so yeah.

2) Compost is good against Cabal Therapy and Sinkhole, worse against Hypnotic Specter and Hymn. Occasionally the life is relevant, but I think they're roughly comparable in the black matchup.

3) It costs 1G which is marginally easier to get.



Thanks for the MU analysis, though, Zach. The AVI quality sucks something awful, but that's kindof how I see the MU.

I have a problem against ITF (well, a variant that was pretty much designed to hose my deck, I guess). It would Deed or Tranquility away my stuff and then shrug off Karmic Justice with Life from the Loam. I mean, I'd clear their land completely, but FoW on the next Enchantress effect and I didn't save anything else.

I dunno, I think my friend's an asshole for running 4x Cunning Wish (with a Tranquility target) and 4 Deed with no targetted removal as a gauntlet test variant of ITF. Still, I don't think that Karmic Justice alone makes us completely immune to board sweepers. Sometimes if we're getting out of hand, Control can just pop the Deed and accept the one-sided Geddon if they have counter backup against the Replenish attempts. And Loam.

I think that's the general style that control players should take against Enchantress, although most of the time it's harder to set up (and they can't Raven's Crime me for 3 a turn to make me lose immediately).

[Jaiminho]

Sacred Ground stops DD?

I always thought it had the same ruling as Karmic Justice. That changes some matchups.

Sacred Ground get's a land back if it was put in your graveyard by an effect controlled by an opponent. Justice asks if it was destroyed by an effect controlled by an opponent.

[Jak]

I have a problem against ITF (well, a variant that was pretty much designed to hose my deck, I guess). It would Deed or Tranquility away my stuff and then shrug off Karmic Justice with Life from the Loam. I mean, I'd clear their land completely, but FoW on the next Enchantress effect and I didn't save anything else.

I dunno, I think my friend's an asshole for running 4x Cunning Wish (with a Tranquility target) and 4 Deed with no targetted removal as a gauntlet test variant of ITF. Still, I don't think that Karmic Justice alone makes us completely immune to board sweepers. Sometimes if we're getting out of hand, Control can just pop the Deed and accept the one-sided Geddon if they have counter backup against the Replenish attempts. And Loam.

I think that's the general style that control players should take against Enchantress, although most of the time it's harder to set up (and they can't Raven's Crime me for 3 a turn to make me lose immediately).

You should be able to totally crush them because of that one sided geddon. They may have counter back up but you should have sooooo mnay strong cards against them (Echantresses, Replenish, hate cards, etc) that they wont be able to recover fast enough.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Spiritual Focus is CRAP!!!! No, I didn't look it up, I know that card, own it, and played 3 copies in the board a long long time ago. Even Spreading Algae is better than that card. Focus is only good when u can play it turn 1 or 2 before your opn hymns you. Therefore you can't just "board a copy of Spiritual Focus". What's your strategy there? Mullying till I get one? tutoring it with grove? c'mon, get real.

Spiritual Focus was an option for a while because it doubles against IGG based combo. With the release of Ad Nauseum, I think the card is past its usefulness.



I have a problem against ITF (well, a variant that was pretty much designed to hose my deck, I guess). It would Deed or Tranquility away my stuff and then shrug off Karmic Justice with Life from the Loam. I mean, I'd clear their land completely, but FoW on the next Enchantress effect and I didn't save anything else.

Ground Seal?

Aura of Silence is also crucial vs. Deed.

But against sweepers in general, your best bet is to draw as many cards as possible pre-sweeper, so you have stuff to drop afterwards.

[Forbiddian]

Ground Seal?

Tranquility tends to kill my Ground Seals. Should I be saving them? I generally play them just to draw two cards.

I dunno, maybe 8 sweepers is just too much to fight against, especially with Kgrip and Naturalize as well as Edict. And Bayous for Choke immunity. And more Engineered Explosives. And Wasteland. And Raven's Crime. Now that I think about it, it's kindof a ridiculous MU.


I really like the idea of MDing 1 copy of Choke, though. I normally leave my MB untouched, which doesn't make any sense.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

No, I wouldn't save them. But you do have Ground Seal, Replenish, Choke, Groves against KGrip, Dovescape, plus your Enchantresses.

Your post-board list vs control should have at least 20 must-counters.

[Forbiddian]

You guys are running Dovescape, now? Man, I'm way behind.


BTW, tournament results were posted for The Source. Enchantress went 2-6 :-(. It beat Imperial Painter and Faerie Stompy, but lost to MUC (???), Landstill x2 (?), Ichorid (well, ok), Epic Painter (??), and Dragon Stompy (???).

Wut?

I dunno, all of those MUs, except Ichorid, I see as at least slightly favorable (some I see as extremely favorable). With that schedule, I would have expected Solitaire to go 6-2 (probably losing a match to Landstill and the Ichorid match).

[Jak]

Ichorid is definitely favorable. Elephant Grass stalls them for 2-3 turns and Ground Seal stops Dread Return shenanigans. With all that time you can set up easily.

[Julian23]

Ichorid is definitely favorable. Elephant Grass stalls them for 2-3 turns and Ground Seal stops Dread Return shenanigans. With all that time you can set up easily.

Form my experience Ichorid is far from unfavourable. As Jak said, Elephant Grasss is _the_ way to go against them. If your sb contains some copies of Wheel of Sun and Moon...use it!

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

You guys are running Dovescape, now? Man, I'm way behind.


BTW, tournament results were posted for The Source. Enchantress went 2-6 :-(. It beat Imperial Painter and Faerie Stompy, but lost to MUC (???), Landstill x2 (?), Ichorid (well, ok), Epic Painter (??), and Dragon Stompy (???).

Wut?

I dunno, all of those MUs, except Ichorid, I see as at least slightly favorable (some I see as extremely favorable). With that schedule, I would have expected Solitaire to go 6-2 (probably losing a match to Landstill and the Ichorid match).

Yeah, I sucked last weekend. I got good match-ups, but my play was really rusty.

[Jak]

2 Serra's Sanctum
4 Windswept Heath
2 Savannah
1 Taiga
8 Forest
3 Plains (Runed Haloes in the Board for stuff like DS and Goblins; getting white is necessary)

4 Sterling Grove
2 Replenish
4 Enchantress Presence
4 Argothian Enchantress

3 Chrome Mox
2 Exploration
2 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl

4 Elephant Grass
3 Solitary Confinement
4 Ground Seal
1 Choke (I have been liking this, thanks Spat and Zach)
1 Aura of Silence
1 Karmic Justice
1 Sacred Mesa
1 Words of War

SB
3 City of Solitude
1 Choke
1 Blood Moon
2 Karmic Justice
1 Replenish
1 Dovescape
2 Krosan Grip (may want something like Ray of Distortion to get around Chalice and CB better)
1 Sacred Ground
3 Runed Halo

Pretty basic and handles a lot of quality decks. Combo is never going to be that great so I just scrapped it in favor of strengthening my other MUs.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Pretty basic and handles a lot of quality decks. Combo is never going to be that great so I just scrapped it in favor of strengthening my other MUs.

That's kind of the approach I've been considering, also.

I guess you can randomly steal a win off of a Halo or if they go EtW and you have Grass, but playing a little more glass cannon style may be better.

Let us now how that works out.

[Jaiminho]

What's Blood Moon been helping with? I don't see it being of use against blue as a 3rd Choke, since you'd be better with an actual 3rd Choke, so which decks are likely to get crippled by it?

[Illissius]

Loam decks, I would think. Though you do already have four Ground Seal. In any case, decks which are full of nonbasics and aren't blue do exist.

[Jak]

What's Blood Moon been helping with? I don't see it being of use against blue as a 3rd Choke, since you'd be better with an actual 3rd Choke, so which decks are likely to get crippled by it?

For random stuff that Choke does not hit or Blue decks with Deed. It could easily be the third Choke.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Loam decks, I would think. Though you do already have four Ground Seal. In any case, decks which are full of nonbasics and aren't blue do exist.

But are we actually afraid of those decks?

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

New idea I've been kicking around for a sb:

3x Tropical Island
2x Threads of Disloyalty
2x Treachery
3x Mystic Remora
5x other cards.

The MD would swap ESG for Lotus Petal.

Eh?

[Nightmare]

Mystic Remora is a lot better in theory than it is in practice.

[Xero]

New idea I've been kicking around for a sb:

3x Tropical Island
2x Threads of Disloyalty
2x Treachery
3x Mystic Remora
5x other cards.

The MD would swap ESG for Lotus Petal.

Eh?

Why exactly? Don't we already have enough anti-creature stuff? I'd prefer the SB to help bad match-ups rather than make even/good ones better.

[Forbiddian]

New idea I've been kicking around for a sb:

3x Tropical Island
2x Threads of Disloyalty
2x Treachery
3x Mystic Remora
5x other cards.

The MD would swap ESG for Lotus Petal.

Eh?


I ran Mystic Remora for a while. I ended up not liking it for a few reasons. Primarily you want to board it in against control decks that run few creatures (otherwise they just drop doodz and you looz). I found it a bit lacking even against Threshold because I was inhibited by the cumulative upkeep as much as they were inhibited by not being able to Brainstorm randomly.

First, it's hard to know when to cast it. It can function like a pseudo-standstill if you play it too early. Enchantress is really not equipped to deal with that, we don't run enough lands to compete.

If you cast it too late, it obviously has no impact. The ideal time to stick it is turn 2 when you can follow up with an Argothian. In this situation, it's really, really good. That's a pretty rare drop, though. If you have an EP instead, you have to wait until after your must-counter to put Mystic Remora in play, which seems silly.

I would definitely try it, though. It's a solid card in many MUs, but I think you'll fall back on just using Choke against blue decks anyway. It also has bad synergy with Aura of Silence.


In terms of blue cards to run, I think Words of Wind is better than Words of War as a wincon. It's actually very easy to force your opponent to scoop up his entire board. It takes 8-10 skipped draws from Words of War to win the game. Your opponents will almost certainly have less than 8-10 permanents out. Secondly, it's much easier to get draws off because you can skip draws to bounce Exploration and/or Serra's Sanctum to generate huge amounts of mana and additional draws to continue to fuel it. Words of Wind --> Upheaval is less of a win than WoWar --> Win, but it's so much easier to pull off. I've upheavaled my Goblins opponent on turn 4 with a good hand. You simply could not do that with Words of War (you could maybe shoot the doodz, but you couldn't shoot the doodz and keep a full hand).

There ARE some decks that can theoretically recover from a complete board sweep (like TES), but Aura of Silence seals the deal. And definitely by next turn you can dig through the entire rest of your deck. Bouncing Exploration, you can get a draw from a G (or two) and a serra's sanctum tap for G. If you have Ground Seal to bounce, you can go massively faster.


Other blue cards to consider: Lilting Refrain (really solid against Control (functions as a "must counter" by countering their counter), probably gets the thumbs up against TES if you happen to be running it, but they'd have to stall petty badly). Energy Flux (Affinity/Stax hate).

In general, I don't like the Wasteland vulnerability of digging deeper into Blue, though. And I hate how sometimes I play a Tropical Island and then resolve a Choke.


I like Control Magic effects a lot. I might suggest Binding Grasp because it only costs 3U. It ties up your land, but you can probably resolve it. I really like the idea of Treachery and Threads, but UU looks hard to support.

[Julian23]

Just wanted to drop a note I eventually tried Zach's(?) idea of running 3 Chrome Mox instead of Elvish Spirit Guide. I really liked it and I think 3 is the exact right number.

[Dr.AgOn]

Just wanted to drop a note I eventually tried Zach's(?) idea of running 3 Chrome Mox instead of Elvish Spirit Guide. I really liked it and I think 3 is the exact right number.

and why chrome mox instead of spirit guide? I think losing 1 card in hand hurts early game more than losing 2 and besides I was always happy with green. I don't need to remove a sterling grove just to get white.

[Julian23]

and why chrome mox instead of spirit guide? I think losing 1 card in hand hurts early game more than losing 2 and besides I was always happy with green. I don't need to remove a sterling grove just to get white.

That's the assumption under which I decided to run ESG insteaf of Mox several months ago. However the point is, both ESG and Chrome Mox are -1 card. With ESG you generate a 1-turn boost to power out 1st turn Enchantress or the like. Chrome Mox does the same but _stays_ on the board thereby providing an additonal mana source for the next turns to came. After all I came to the conclusion that I slightly prefer Mox over ESG because of that.
People argue ESG is good for dodging Daze on an Enchantress. Think of it, Mox does so as well.

1st turn Argothian Enchantress dies to Daze (unless you got 2 ESG..) just like with Mox
2nd turn Argothian Enchantress doesnt die to Daze no matter if you run ESG or Mox

I hope you got me on this. I prefer the permanent acceleration provided by Mox over the temporary boost of ESV. Enchantress is a deck that always got plenty of use for spare mana. Especially against control and aggro where you want to resolve and maintain key cards like Confinement+Enchantress effect or stuff like Choke/City of Solitude/Blood Moon my reasoning is that its just better to be able to drop a card like Ground Seal or something to Mox thereby getting ahead in "land"drops. I only run 20 lands and 3 Mox just turned out really fine.

Maybe Zach can provide us with his thoughts behind Mox again.

[Dr.AgOn]

thanks for the reply. I really didn't think of chrome mox as a permanent... *stupid me*

I'll test it. Saturday's a tournament and I'll probably play Enchantress since I'm lending my Goyf Sligh to a friend of mine.

[The_Red_Panda]

However the point is, both ESG and Chrome Mox are -1 card

Mox costs you a card and the mox itself, meaning 2 cards total. ESG removes only itself for a single -1 card. I don't know the exact situations and whatnot, but Mox is most certainly more disadvantage than ESG. The difference is that Mox leaves a permanent mana source to the table. Note that that source can be destroyed by Deed, ect.



People argue ESG is good for dodging Daze on an Enchantress. Think of it, Mox does so as well.

1st turn Argothian Enchantress dies to Daze (unless you got 2 ESG..) just like with Mox
2nd turn Argothian Enchantress doesnt die to Daze no matter if you run ESG or Mox



But in the situation of ESG on the second turn, your opponent bounces his land and loses a daze in return for only your ESG. This nets you a tempo gain, as you're not going to hit that daze again, say when you're trying to drop moat the next turn.

[Julian23]

Mox costs you a card and the mox itself, meaning 2 cards total. ESG removes only itself for a single -1 card. I don't know the exact situations and whatnot, but Mox is most certainly more disadvantage than ESG. The difference is that Mox leaves a permanent mana source to the table.

You said it. Mox is -1 card just as ESG. I get your point but obviously I evaluate an additional mana source higher than you do, especially in Enchantress. When (I think it was) Zach 1st suggested Chrome Mox I thought it was terrible and I'd never be playing it instead of ESG but after watching his performance on the 2man tournament and giving it a try I'm now fully convinced.

[slaiter]

My new list:

//Lands
4 Windswept Heath
2 Savannah
1 Taiga
9 Forest
3 Plains
2 Serra's Sanctum
//21

//Creatures
4 Argothian Enchantress
//4

//Spells
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Sterling Grove
4 Elephant Grass
3 Solitary Confinement
3 Ground Seal
2 Wild Growth
2 Replenish
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Moat
1 Sacred Mesa
1 Karmic Justice
1 Sylvan Library //I do not look so good. -1 Sylvan Library +1 ????
1 Aura of Silence
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Words of War
//35

Suggestions?

[Julian23]

Suggestions?
Metagame?

Looks solid overall. You might wanna try additional acceleration (Elvish Spirit Guide or Chrome Mox, try and make up your mind on both).
/edit: The numbers of land, creatures and spells add up to 61 but you only listed 60 cards.

[slaiter]

Spells = 35 sorry

My metagame:
Goblins
Burn
Agroo Loam
Ad Nauseam(terrible match, obvious)
White Stax
Dragron-Stompy
Landstill
Thresh

[Julian23]

What strikes me is the need for say 3 copies of Sacred Ground sideboard as well as the usual distribution of 3 Karmic Justice between main- and sideboard. Your Aggro Loam and White Stax matchups will thank you for it.
-
Goblins should be ok provided you manage your lands well (always enchant basics and never put more than 1 sprawl/growth on a land because of Port).
Dragon Stompy is peace of cake unless they go 1st turn Pit Dragon 2nd turn attack for 20..very unlikely.
-
Against Landstill I prefer Choke over City of Solitude and run 4 in the board. Might as well try against Thresh but I rarely run into them.
-
Burn is a good matchup in theory but can win as soon as turn 4 giving you little time to find and hide under Confinement. I never did so but if burn actually caused problems for me I might wanna look into Harsh Judgement.
-
Why exactly do you run Wheel of Sun and Moon? Against Loam and White Stax (Crucible shenanigans) I'd much rather have Sacred Ground.
-
You might wanna add a 3rd Replenish to the board for the Loam (Reverrent Silence), Landstill and Goblin matchup; yes Goblins as it allows for more "fog"-Confinements, recurrsion of Sterling Grove (Krosan Grip be gone) as well as an additional out against Krosan Grip. Game2 its just better than Wheel or Aura.

[Jaiminho]

You might wanna add a 3rd Replenish to the board for the Loam (Reverrent Silence), Landstill and Goblin matchup; yes Goblins as it allows for more "fog"-Confinements, recurrsion of Sterling Grove (Krosan Grip be gone) as well as an additional out against Krosan Grip. Game2 its just better than Wheel or Aura.

Recycling Confinements against a deck that can hit you for lots at instant speed isn't a good idea. If there's a Siege Gang on the other side, you'll never want to do that unless you got City on the board, obviously.

[Julian23]

Yeah, thanks for stating the obvious. And yes, City is reasonable against Goblins, people wouldnt believe. I really like how it stops them from tying up my manabase with Port.

[Jaiminho]

Yeah, thanks for stating the obvious.

No problem, that's my job. Glad to be of service. Now you do your job and explain this to me: How can recycling Confinements be generally a good thing against Goblins? Apart from the City scenario, the first thing a Matron grabs is a Siege Gang, so you kinda can't rely on that. Let me state the obvious again: Relying on unreliable things leads to game losses.

[Julian23]

No problem, that's my job. Glad to be of service. Now you do your job and explain this to me: How can recycling Confinements be generally a good thing against Goblins? Apart from the City scenario, the first thing a Matron grabs is a Siege Gang, so you kinda can't rely on that. Let me state the obvious again: Relying on unreliable things leads to game losses.

Have you never let a Confinement die in upkeep because you were facing a lethal attack just to replenish it back in mainphase? Thereby even getting back a Sterling Grove that tutored for the needed 2nd Enchantress-effect. Thats my point in "recycling" it.
I believe you think that by "recycling" I meant playing it without need just to draw a card and let it die the next upkeep. That's not my point. Maybe I should have been clearer on this.

[Jaiminho]

Have you never let a Confinement die in upkeep because you were facing a lethal attack just to replenish it back in mainphase? Thereby even getting back a Sterling Grove that tutored for the needed 2nd Enchantress-effect. Thats my point in "recycling" it.
I believe you think that by "recycling" I meant playing it without need just to draw a card and let it die the next upkeep. That's not my point. Maybe I should have been clearer on this.

What I meant with recycling a Confinement was letting one die and bringing the same back or another one to the board. It's not as if playing "Cycling COST". It's more like what the word "recycling" suggests me, so it probably made my sentence obscure enough.

What I was arguing is that, against Goblins, you will usually face a Siege-Gang Commander, so you can't do that unless you are backed up by a City of Solitude, therefore I don't think it's a good enough decision to board in that extra Replenish for that, unless there's some empty slots asking to be filled.

[Forbiddian]

@Replenish Discussion: Three Replenish in general is probably too much. They become weaker as you run more, regardless of cycling Confinements and such. And against board sweeps, I'd rather have real answers and stuff that lets me combo off rather than more chance to get stuck on lands/sorceries. I really can't imagine boarding them in, tbh.

@City of Solitude Discussion: Or City of Solitude, especially against Goblins. Yuck. You're boarding in cards to stop 4 of their cards?

The odds that they even get a Port are less than 50%. So half the time, City of Solitude is equivalent to boarding in Choke against Goblins (which, by the way, I think is a better card than City of Solitude because it does the same thing that CoS does: Demand a counterspell or immediate removal. Except Choke makes itself harder to remove and it hurts players who didn't counter it instead of sitting there dead).

Unless you have some SERIOUSLY dead cards or something, City of Solitude is probably not an improvement in the Goblins MU and is pretty much strictly worse than Choke for everything else.


Looks pretty standard. I always try to have 4x Ground Seal (not just against annoying Loam decks, but the Night's Whisper really helps keeping an early Confinement on the table).

I think that Mirri's Guile is superior to Sylvan Library for most metas. I typically have one extra mana a lot more often than I have two extra mana and they have similar functions. Library doesn't work with Solitary, unfortunately. But both benefit from having a lot of shuffle functions. You're only running 4 Heaths, so I don't think either would be very strong in your deck.

Cut it for Hoofprints of the Stag? I'm starting to really like that card. It sticks four power on the table for 3 mana and can also put a 4/4 on the table in the midgame. It combos pretty well with Elephant Grass to buy you the time you need to start churning tokens out.

I'd really consider cutting some Wild Growths and/or Utopia Sprawls for Chrome Moxen. It's a pretty big jump, but Chrome Moxen really help.

[Julian23]

@City of Solitude Discussion: Or City of Solitude, especially against Goblins. Yuck. You're boarding in cards to stop 4 of their cards?

Yuck. Stopping 4 of their cards is better than stopping none of their cards with Wheel of Sun and Moon. Look at his decklist. City isn't there for the Goblinmatchup as you already figured. As I already stated I don't run it anymore. I mentioned it because Jaiminho brought it up in the Goblin MU and before people would start pondering why he'd even have a City in play against Goblins I gave the additional reasoning; the prime use of course being limiting SCG to their turn.
City doesn't sit in an anti-goblin slot in your sb but you can still bring them in for cards like Wheel of Sun and Moon.
Any more missunderstandings left? Hope not.

I prefer Choke over City because the later still gets caught by massremoval whereas Choke denies most Landstill players the opportunity to set up deed,EE and the like.

Regarding Hoofprints, I've never tested it thus far. From what I can say I've won several games by chumpblocking with Mesa.

[GreenOne]

I tested Hoofprints for so long, and it's almost useless against anything non-control. And control already has MD critter removal G1 before siding it out. I liked the card: it seemed printed with enchantress in mind, but in the end it was not worth it.

I don't kno if I'd play City of solitude over Wheel of Sun and Moon against gobbos. It's a rough choice because city stops Port+SGC+some uses of vial, where wheel costs 2 instead of 3 (speed is important against gobbos, cause you gotta have a fast confinament/moat/grass) and imprints for white with chrome mox. I would not play either, but I don't know which one you should play.

[Wobbles The Goose]

How does Runed Halo not see more maindeck play? It just seems awesome in a format where most decks rely on a single win condition to do significant portions of damage and has no good way to remove an enchantment. Especially seems better than o-ring against decks with pernicious deed/ee (the biggest threat), because it still trades with their Tarmogoyf.

This card just buys you tons of time.

[Jak]

Runed Halo and O Ring are really in there for different reasons. One takes out problematic stuff like Chalice, Trinisphere, etc while another can buy you time against an opponents Tarmogoyf beats. The WW is sometimes hard to get in a deck that needs its G. It is an awesome card but casting it is sometimes difficult. That said, I play 4 between the main and side.

[Wobbles The Goose]

yeah, I mean, I can see the problem with that, especially depending on the mana base. But still, it seems like aura of silence is better at dealing with static artifacts that o-ring and halo is better at dealing with threats. Plus, aura is just awesome against most decks playing chalice or sphere. Also, it's interesting just how precedent Luis Scott-Vargas's enchantress build was from 2007 worlds.

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=12294

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KQPO6H4Ejk

with maindeck sacred ground city of solitude and 13 white lands. I've been having a lot of fun with 2x halo over a moat and an o-ring. Probably needs more of a board against fast combo, but I think you'd rather focus your maindeck on beating the aggro-control matchups with Citys and whatnot.

Also, what are thoughts on Root Maze out of the sideboard to by time against aggressive combo decks? Better, worse or meh than say Orim's Chant or Thoughtseize against AN? I mean, you have so many possible slots to bring cards in against combo.

[Gibbie_X]

I posted a version, when apparently I should have just replied here. My apologizes. Bitterblossom as a one of in enchantress? The black shouldn't be hard to make, it always produces, but only one at a time.

City of Solitude can really screw you too if you are not careful. Giving your opponent carte blanche with your board can be deadly. I have a need for it, since i can kill in one hit. Which brings me to a question, What does city of solitude do against counterbalance?

Personally, I think the Words versions are to slow and costly. The version I play utilizes the card draw engine into a combo.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

City of Solitude prevents Top from functioning on your turn, and does nothing against Counterbalance.

[GreenOne]

Personally, I think the Words versions are to slow and costly. The version I play utilizes the card draw engine into a combo.

Which one? saproling burst? or storm beasts?

[VsTheWorld]

I posted a version, when apparently I should have just replied here. My apologizes. Bitterblossom as a one of in enchantress? The black shouldn't be hard to make, it always produces, but only one at a time.

Bitterblossom as a one-of seems like a terrible idea, no offense. It's much too slow to act as a wincon, since it would basically have to be tutored up with Sterling Grove and only pumps out one dude a turn. Compare that to Sacred Mesa, which I'm still a huge fan of. Same function as emergency chump-blocker producer, but it actually wins games once it gets active too. Especially if you think Words of War is too slow, Bitterblossom is just bad. Beyond that, it does nothing to make our bad matchups like combo any better. I've been experimenting with 3 Thoughtseize main though as an extra weapon against CB and combo and to force through my first enchantress. So far it's been promising.

[Gibbie_X]

Which one? saproling burst? or storm beasts?

Replenish fueled PandaBurst, so a City can protect me better.


Bitterblossom as a one-of seems like a terrible idea, no offense. It's much too slow to act as a wincon, since it would basically have to be tutored up with Sterling Grove and only pumps out one dude a turn. Compare that to Sacred Mesa, which I'm still a huge fan of. Same function as emergency chump-blocker producer, but it actually wins games once it gets active too. Especially if you think Words of War is too slow, Bitterblossom is just bad. Beyond that, it does nothing to make our bad matchups like combo any better. I've been experimenting with 3 Thoughtseize main though as an extra weapon against CB and combo and to force through my first enchantress. So far it's been promising.

None taken. I wouldn't contaminate my Legacy deck with it, my ext version though, eh. I know the Bitterblossom is too slow for win, and ofcourse Mesa is better, and City certainly puts that factory on hold.

Thoughtseize sounds too good. Would Duress be a better choice? There isn't a creature that Enchantress should really fear, and one they certainly wouldn't cast third or four turn, giving you a chance to prepare. I see a problem against Chalice though. They drop one with one counter on it, you lose an important chunk of you deck. I do see an advantage with adding a splash of black. Engineered Plague and Leyline seem worth it, but you can supplement Wheel of Sun and Moon for Leyline, especially against Ichorid. How annoying would that be. Frankly I'm seeing what black can do.




Third round against Enchantress:

Really easy matchup. First game I destroy him completely. Second game I have to mull to 5 but still win through orim's chant with absolutely nuts hand.

2-1 (5-3)


This certainly makes me want a little disruption to throw them off. Eyes of the Wisent anyone?

[Dr.AgOn]

a little black splash is awesome. how about the abyss anyone?

[strom]

a little black splash is awesome. how about the abyss anyone?

That was already discussed a few pages back.

I really dont get why everyone tries to fix the combo match-up, because it is not fixable without adding subpar cards (like Thoughtseize). I recommend to play Runed Halo as a 4-of between main and side - but I would not do anything more than that. Instead we shoud keep focussing on winning against aggro and aggrocontrol decks, which the deck can do pretty well.

I'd like to share a great moment during my last tournamnet with this deck on saturday:
I was facing Dragon Stompy. He started with a first turn Rakdos Pit dragon, followed by second one on turn #2. My first turn was Land -> Sprawl, second turn land and Sterling Grove, third turn Grove getting Runed Halo. From this moment on I could set up all I needed to win but it was really close. Luckily he couldnt topdeck another creature (well he found a third Drgon:tongue: ). I didnt expect to win that one with such an explosive start by the stompy-player.

[Redlotus27]

I was thinking about 4x Orim's Chant for the combo matches. Runed Halo is pretty ok too, calling Tendrils or some such...just me .02 cents I prb will be playing Enchantress at Pastimes near Chicago tomorrow. Any last minute suggestions?

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Don't give into the fear.

When in doubt, mulligan.

[Illissius]

Throwing some shit against the wall: I assume people have put some thought into Counterbalance + Enchantress. And because no one plays it, I assume the conclusion is that it's not good. I would appreciate someone expounding on the rationale here. I get that Enchantress likes to combo out, and that sitting behind a Counterbalance may not be entirely compatible with that plan. However, that says nothing about which of them is the superior plan. It seems like Counterbalance could help significantly with some problems this deck has, such as combo, mass removal, and opposing Counterbalance.

Also, Sterling Grove has some pretty sweet interactions with Counterbalance: finds it, protects it from Grip, and finds an enchantment with a given converted mana cost if you need one. (This is actually where I first thought of the Enchantress angle.)

Also, it is ridiculous and terrible that every similar card -- from Sylvan Library through Mirri's Guile to Elemental Augury and Soothsaying -- is an enchantment, but Sensei's Divining Top itself is an artifact. Bah.

Also, humbug.

Anyways, decklists are cool so I paste them. For illustrative purposes only:

4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Sterling Grove
4 Counterbalance
4 Runed Halo
3 Aura of Silence
2 Solitary Confinement
1 Soothsaying
1 Ground Seal
1 Sacred Mesa
2 Replenish
4 Utopia Sprawl
2 Wild Growth
3 Chrome Mox
2 Serra's Sanctum
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Forest
SB: 4 Elephant Grass
SB: 2 Oblivion Ring
SB: 2 Treachery
SB: 2 Karmic Justice
SB: 2 Replenish
SB: 1 Aura of Silence
SB: 1 Sacred Ground
SB: 1 Wheel of Sun and Moon

The manabase is probably terrible and needs work, ignore it. Less combo-oriented (no Exploration etc.) because more Counterbalance-oriented. Halos main over Elephant Grass because most decks these days rely on few large threats rather than many small ones; also good against combo. Soothsaying could become a second win condition, as per taste. Aura of Silence over Oblivion Ring maindeck because Aura is awesome against Deed whereas Ring is awful. Possibly I am overcompensating for Enchantress's weaknesses. If your metagame is the heavy aggro one Enchantress is traditionally good in, do not play this version.

I am not an Enchantress player, so many-to-all of my choices are liable to be bad ones. Again, I am just throwing this out there for discussion.

[honz]

There are 2 rather large problems with counterbalance:
It's blue
It needs sensei's top to be effective

Enchantress, by nature, runs as few non-enchantment cards as possible. That means a low-land count is mandatory. This is a huge problem when you are trying to cast a UU spell, especially since there are almost no blue enchantments worth putting in the deck. With all the land hate that is running rampant (stifles, team america, blood moon, vindicate, wastes...etc), non-basics and fetches are risky, especially with such a low land count. The UU casting cost is just too prohibitive, i would rather just wait for 4 mana and play a moat (which doesn't deserve to be in the deck).

It also need a top to really be effective. Again, with the enchantment thing, theres really not much room for 3 extra cards of deadweight.

If counterbalance was GG or WW, i would play it. It's not, so forget it.

[Nihil Credo]

Not including Enlightened Tutor in a list so filled with powerful-yet-conditional cards (plus, you know, Counterbalance) seems like a huge mistake to me. Also, cutting Elephant Grass wrecks your aggro and Ichorid matchup.

It seems to me you're setting yourself up to destroy Counterbalance Threshold and Aggro Loam and lose to most everything else. Perhaps you could start testing -1 Cbalance, -2 Runed Halo, -1 Soothsaying, -2 Aura of Silence, +3 Tutor, +3 Elephant Grass. That list would probably still have big issues against control decks, mostly because of the huge amount of card disadvantage, but it should be able to reap the benefits of CounterTop in the appropriate matchups while not scooping it up to hordes of little creatures.

[Gibbie_X]

That was already discussed a few pages back.

I really dont get why everyone tries to fix the combo match-up, because it is not fixable without adding subpar cards (like Thoughtseize). I recommend to play Runed Halo as a 4-of between main and side - but I would not do anything more than that. Instead we shoud keep focussing on winning against aggro and aggrocontrol decks, which the deck can do pretty well.

I'd like to share a great moment during my last tournamnet with this deck on saturday:
I was facing Dragon Stompy. He started with a first turn Rakdos Pit dragon, followed by second one on turn #2. My first turn was Land -> Sprawl, second turn land and Sterling Grove, third turn Grove getting Runed Halo. From this moment on I could set up all I needed to win but it was really close. Luckily he couldnt topdeck another creature (well he found a third Drgon:tongue: ). I didnt expect to win that one with such an explosive start by the stompy-player.

Haha, yeah, I played against a Dragon-Stompy with my newest build. It's truly disgusting to be able to get past a Chalice for one and a Moon. My opponent, having nearly won the match, said that it was a bad match-up. I had to agree. I don't mind the Trinisphere as much as the Chalice.


Runed Halo is almost a must, but I was thinking. Solitary confinement can be dropped just as fast as Halo. Granted, Halo sticks a lot longer than Confinement, but you will be able hold off long enough to set up. Halo backfires with the WW cost, making it hard with low land counts and those running wild growth.

I must also agree that counterbalance is a bad choice for this format. The black splash is too much as it is, but still being just the right balance. Besides, if you are going to run it, have the Top's and one or two CB maximum. Cutting down the U in the deck helps the stability, and no Sanctum's with that fubard a mana base. Mise Well throw in Thoughtseize, really send it over the edge.

So this last post was half bad, so I am going to fix it with a problem I am going to argue all the way to Chicago. What is the best kill method for Enchantress and why?

The lists I've seen have a few in common:

Sacred Mesa
Words of War
Hoofprints of the Stag

or the combo version:
Hunting Pack Storm

my idea:
PandaBurst

I really feel Enchantress is a better deck than most in the format. It has access to possible answers to almost every threat thrown at your face. There is literally an enchantment for every deck that just ends it, its not even fair.

I want this deck to be ready for Chicago, and I know the decks I need to be able to beat.
I posted a version, but now, with the darkness absorbed into it, it's got the way to get around the worst of those decks.

[Barsoom]

Hello all,
I'm interested on building another Legacy deck, and my choice come to Enchantress, because seems to have good matchups against the legacy field, and more importantly seems fun to play; the problem is my budget, Enchantress it's a quite cheap deck to build, except for Moat/Duals/Fetches.
So my question is, a list without those cards loses too much, or it's still viable?
Here the list i'm ready to build, quite the same as the list here (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=22354) on deckcheck.

Budget Enchantress

13 Forest
6 Plains
2 Serra's Sanctum

4 Argothian Enchantress

4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Sterling Grove
4 Elephant Grass
3 Solitary Confinement
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Replenish
1 Ground Seal
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Aura of Silence/Mirri's Guile (i don't know here, is Mirri's Guile worth a slot?)
1 Runed Halo
1 Karmic Justice
1 Hoofprints of the Stag/Helix Pinnacle
1 Sacred Mesa
1 Words of War

// Sideboard //
2 Groud Seal
2 Choke
2 Karmic Justice
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Aura of Silence
1 Seal of Primordium
1 City of Solitude
1 Runed Halo
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Sacred Ground
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Replenish

Any suggestions for changes on the list, tips on how to play the deck, links about Enchantress or similar is of course really appreciated

Thanks for reading

[GreenOne]

The list seems good, but it's a pity you can't find a Moat. Try borrowing it, it just win some matches.

You might want a single Blood Moon in the side too.

I'd also probably play -1 Confinament +1 Runed Halo/O.Ring/Replenish. Confinament is often nothing more than a fog effect until you have 2 enchantresses out. Hoofprints is also not huge (Pinnacle is unplayable unless enchantress is a force in your meta), play it only if you have problems with WoW without the MD taiga (I doubt it).

Some tips out of the top of my head:
- You can spend excess mana on words or war and CoP:Red to avoid manaburn.
- If you want to tutor an enchantment with sterling grove and have multiple enchantresses on board, first draw (number of enchantresses-1) cards, and in response to the last draw, sac sterling grove to find the enchantment. This way you if you draw the enchantment anyway in the random draws you have you don't need to break the Sterling Grove to tutor it.
- If you've locked your opponent, then don't worry about tutoring a sterling grove with a sterling grove just to Replenish both.
- Try working around EE against control and aggrocontrol. Play some 2cc and some 3cc spells. Remember Aura of silence does not raise the casting cost of EE. If you O.Ring EE when oblivion ring got destroyed EE comes into play set@0.
- Wheel of Sun and Moon on yourself makes a draw against Painter's combo.
- Don't worry targeting two times the same permanent with Karmic Justice to work around Stifle.

Here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10573)'s a report from a quite large tournament a bit of time ago by me. Don't know if it helps, but i like reports a lot.

[Barsoom]

Really thanks for suggestions and tips; i already read your report deeply to know how to play the deck, and how it works; i can say that was your report to persuade me about building this deck, and i like too reading report of any deck (plus, i'm italian too, so our meta it's the same). Do you know other reports here on the source or on other sites? i'll search for it.

From what i understood, we can live without duals&fetches but not without Moat, cause it wins games by itself?; the additional Confinement was in the place of Moat (seems the right card to replace moat if i don't play it).
According to deckcheck, people usually plays 3 win conditions for this deck, Mesa and WoW + another card. This is the reason i added Hoofprints here.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

You can live without Moat just fine actually.

You could run as few as 3 fetches and 1 dual land and be ok, I think.

But I definitely would run no more than 4 non-Sprawlable lands.

Buy the Ravnica duals if you have to.

[honz]

I play enchantress without moat, and have never really missed it. The number of games that moat wins by itself is roughly equal to the number of games moat looes by itself, because you think you are safe only to eat a krosan grip EOT. More often than not i would rather just see a solitary confinement.

Alternatively, you could play Island Sanctuary...

You could easily run 4-5 fetches, plus 1 stomping ground, 1-2 temple gardens. I ran this mana-base for a while without many issues. Most the time just waiting a turn, or taking 2 damage is not a huge problem.

I run 1 win-condition and have never had an issue. Every now and then i want to play sacred mesa, just because sanctum + mesa can randomly win.

I really like the spirit guides in the deck, it is definately something you should check out.

[Jaiminho]

The first time I brought this deck to a tourney, I didn't actually had any Taigas or Savannahs, so I set myself up with the following base:

1 Plateau
2 Plains
10 Forest
4 Windswept Heath
2 Serra's Sanctum

And it worked fine, except for some problems I had with Rishadan Port hitting white sources while I was unable to get more. Plains could go up to 3 and Forest down to 9. I hope this is budget enough -- it has 2 less duals than usual.

[GreenOne]

From what i understood, we can live without duals&fetches but not without Moat, cause it wins games by itself?; the additional Confinement was in the place of Moat (seems the right card to replace moat if i don't play it).
According to deckcheck, people usually plays 3 win conditions for this deck, Mesa and WoW + another card. This is the reason i added Hoofprints here.

The deck can live without both moat and fetches/duals. Obviously it's less powerful. Run it, and when you have the money just buy the cards in this order: 4 fetches, 1 savannah, 1 moat, 1 taiga, 1 savannah.

I'm actually playing just 2 win conditions, but Hoofprints is quite good in the control matchup. Play it if there's much control in your meta.

Good to see italian guys with enchantress. The deck can be really a force in our meta :laugh:

[Gibbie_X]

In regards to Moat, I say play with it if you can. It is only a one of though, playing with 2 is unnecessary. It does win some games flat out, and others, it's a dead slot, but it still draws you a card when you play it.

As with any deck in the format that isn't mono, duals are needed, which sucks major donkey dong because they won't reprint them so that everyone can get some. There was another post discussing the banning of duals, well, actually it was discussing the banning of Counterbalance, but threw duals in there somewhere. The duals make the legacy format as Massive as it is by allowing people to play every possible good card. Well, not everyone, because at that point you have a 250 deck.

But if you are on a budget crunch, run with Elephant Grass, Ghostly Prison, and Island Sanctuary. They are easier to cast without having duals, and slow down fliers as well as ground pounders.

[smurphy]

my meta is full of cheap aggro control decks and just about everyone runs the wasteland crucible/loam engine so I realy cant even afford to run duals. dont own a moat and am working on the but heres my list.

9- Forest
8- Plains
1- Mountains
2- Serras Sanctum

4- Argothian Enchantress
3- Enchantress Presence
2- Sylvan Library
1- Holistic Wisdom

4- Wild Growth
4- utopia Sprawl

3- Sterling Grove

3- Elephant Grass
2- Ghostly Prison
1- Seal Of Fire

3- Oblivion Ring
1- Story Circle
1- City of Solitude
1- Aura of Silence
1- Seal of Cleansing
1- parallex Wave

2- Solitary Confinement

1- Replenish

1- Words of War
1- Sacred Mesa

SIDEBOARD
1- Parallex Wave
2- Energy Storm
3- Aura of Silence
2- Compost
3- Rule of Law
1- Contemplation
1- Oblivion Ring
1- Stormbind
1- Argivian Find

I like the contemplation in the board for basically any combo deck but solidarity, which is non existant in my meta. the energy storms are there to support my confiements from burn and faerie and dragon stompy.
and other questions or suggestions let me know.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Without duals and fetches, I would try to find ways to cut back on non-green mana costs.

Seal of Fire and that basic mountain would be the first cut. I might see about getting 2x Lotus Petals to help cast WoWar.

And if everyone runs Loam, you should definitely run 4x Ground Seals.

You should probably do that regardless of whether they run LftL, though.

[GreenOne]

You should play one more Enchantress Presence. The fact that the card is named like the deck should help in understanding why.

[smurphy]

I will try cutting the mountain and seal in favor of lotus petals, I have a local tourney every weekend and its usually about 30 people or so and I will test that tomorrow. the ground seals are a great idea, been playing this deck for awhile but never really thought of that. if I can get my hands on some before the tourney I will cut out the wisdom for it.



about one more presence, I have more of a control build and usually end up with more than enough in play fast enough to gain advantage so would rather use that slot for an answer.

[Jak]

That still doesn't make much sense. Well, it makes sense that you would want more "answers", but cutting parts of the core of the deck is stupid. You need to get an Enchantress effect down or you will lose, so why wouldn't you want to makes the chances of that better?

It seems you have a lot of chaff. I know that you said your build was more of a control build, but just upping the number of hate for aggro so your MU goes from 75% to 85% (86.9% of all statistics are made up on the spot, btw) seems bad. Story Circle, Parallax Wave, and Seal of Fire could probably be cut for another Enchantress, Grove (I still don't understand why people run 3), and Elephant Grass. I would also try to fit some more Replenishes and perhaps another Confinement.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Oh wow. Didn't notice that.

Yeah, 8x Enchantress effects is pretty non-negotiable.

Control likes card advantage. Combo likes card advantage. Whichever direction you take the deck in, the deck will revolve around drawing cards.

[honz]

@smurphy: That deck is entirely too white for my taste. It is also full of very specific targeted effects that are dead more often than not (parralax wave, seal of fire, seal of clensing, aura of silence, story circle, city of solitude...etc). I would suggest delagating such cards to your sideboard, and playing broader answers maindeck (choke instead of city, 3rd confinement instead of parralax...etc).

The sideboard seems confused. 1 agrevian find? Parralax waves? Energy storm? You seem to have alot of anti-creature cards, but they are very limited and temporary (o-ring, ghost quarter, wave). Instead you should play broader solutions, such as: 4 elephant grass, moat, island sanctuary, 3-4 solitary confinement, choke (+ elephant grass > thresh), runed halo. These are broader, longer lasting cards, that can also play dual roles.

Like i said, i think more green would be beneficial. Seal of primordium instead of seal of clensing, ground seals, all 8 enchantress, 1-3 explorations...etc

EDIT: you need atleast 2, probably 3 Karmic Justice in there somewhere.

[smurphy]

thanks for the suggestions, I will add snother grove and enchatress and the last elephant grass. I got the tourney in the morning and will try to get some notes to actually make a report and let you know how I did.

[GreenOne]

In the conflux spoiler thread:


Well here's an interesting one for Enchantress ...

Sigil of the Empty Throne :3::w::w:
Enchantment
Whenever you play an Enchantment spell, put a 4/4 white Angel token with flying into play under your control.

Seems good. Well, seems very good. 5CC dodges Counterbalance (only FoW to counter it) it wins the game in 2 turns. Makes huge blockers and is good without an Enchantress effect out. It's even good without Sanctum. No upkeep to pay.
Mmmh, seems better than Sacred Mesa unless you're about decking yourself.

-1 something +1 Sigil of the empty throne?
Maybe -1 Sacred Mesa + 1 Sigil of the empty Throne?

Thoughts?

[Barsoom]

Really nice, i think too this is better than Sacred mesa; no upkeep to pay, way faster for killing the opponent, 4/4 > 1/1, all this for only 1&plain more to pay; that's quite irrelevant cause you'll play this (like mesa) as a winning condition late in the game (in most cases).

[GreenOne]

Yeah, the only downsides I see are:
- You can "cycle" mesa, digging for more enchantments, however, this has a higher "cycling" cost (it also remains into play and do its job though)
- It can't be used as a wincon if you already drew much of your deck and have many enchantresses on board (late in the game) unless you have also WoW in play too. Drawing 8 cards to make 2 4/4 can be risky when you have 10 total cards in the deck and have no way to put an active WoW into play.

The upsides are:
- Does use 3WW mana in all its life, compared to 3WW mana of sacred mesa just to play it and pay the first upkeep.
- It makes 4/4 instead of 1/1s, so you don't have to worry about E.Plague and the like. They're better at attacking, and better chumpblockers: 2 of those kills Goyf and Tombstalker (and one survive). 3 kills Dreadnough (!!!).
- It's damn good when you don't have an enchantress in play, cause half of the cards you draw instantly becomes 4/4 with flying.
- No way it can be Engineered Explosived away by the opponent.

[landstill101]

In the conflux spoiler thread:



Seems good. Well, seems very good. 5CC dodges Counterbalance (only FoW to counter it) it wins the game in 2 turns. Makes huge blockers and is good without an Enchantress effect out. It's even good without Sanctum. No upkeep to pay.
Mmmh, seems better than Sacred Mesa unless you're about decking yourself.

-1 something +1 Sigil of the empty throne?
Maybe -1 Sacred Mesa + 1 Sigil of the empty Throne?

Thoughts?

I really like the card myself and will be testing it, but in my thinking I play mesa and wow, the mesa is great because I can still kill someone without needing to have enchantments in hand, I can just pay mana and kill and at the same time, I can make them any time I want to block or what ever, with throne, you can only make guys with enchantments in hand which means that an explosives would blow all of your guys then they swing for win, when mesa, they can blow ee and you can just make more after. it also means you might deck yourself and they aren't instant. I think the fact that you still have to draw cards when you get the guys and you cant make them at instant speed makes the card inferior to mesa. The size does not matter, because the only deck that the size of the creature really matters anymore is goblins and the few goblin decks running around don't run sharpshooter anymore.

For smurphy, I wont give my deck list away(because it isn't my original list to give) but i can give some suggestions that I have found to work very well in my testing.

you really need 4 argothian and 4 presence, its just needed.

Wasnt a big fan of sylvan library but some people have had success with it.

for the holistic wisdom, I dont see it as powerful enough because it removes the card from the game, i would just take it out and put another replenish in.

4 utopia sprawl is nice, but In my testing have the 4 wild growths too was too much and not really needed.


if your meta is cheap aggro decks, then you deff want to up grasses because those are huge against them,


One of the major things I know is that you have alot of 1 ofs, which make me feel like you tutor for the things you want, and personally in legacy that isn't consistant enough to win. Intead of having small answers to everything but no consistancies, take out the stuff like the:
wild growths,
the seal of fire,
story circle
parallex wave

And up the count on other things like the grass and presence and such which give more consistancies.

Here are some cards that I have in my build that you don't have which I would like you to test to see if you like them as well as me.

Ground seal(which the ability helps against many decks and against the decks its dead, it draws an extra card which really helps move things along.)
karmic justice(I can't see a reason not to ever run this card, this practically makes more sideboard and main board removal worthless. This laughs in the face of E.E. and deed, wastelands and such.
moat, if you can get the money, I'm a huge fan of it, I run 2 of them.
last but not least, I'm a huge fan of runed halo, Many people here say oblivion ring is better, but when the most played deck still is threshold, naming tarmogoyf stops all 4 not just one, and get this, it stops nimble mongoose, and it also stops burn, combo and really anything that targets you. And its costs 1 left.

For the sideboard, my sideboard looks like this
3 orim's chant(combo)
3 choke(blue)
2 karmic justice(any mass removal or wastelock or such stuff)
2 city of solitude(blue, mainly)
1 opalescence(another win condition)
1 sacred ground(aggro loam)
1 ground seal(decks that target graveyard(theres some in main deck too)
2 seal of cleansing(have 1 silence main)

I know it looks sloppy and hope it helps, I know my list has won alot of matches, I hope you have as much success as me.


EDIT: oh and about dual lands, I run 4 savannahs, 2 tiaga, 1 platau, 2 sanctums, and 4 heaths, and never had a problem with aggroloams of crucbile wastelock.

[Jaiminho]

Yeah, the only downsides I see are:
- You can "cycle" mesa, digging for more enchantments, however, this has a higher "cycling" cost (it also remains into play and do its job though)
- It can't be used as a wincon if you already drew much of your deck and have many enchantresses on board (late in the game) unless you have also WoW in play too. Drawing 8 cards to make 2 4/4 can be risky when you have 10 total cards in the deck and have no way to put an active WoW into play.

The upsides are:
- Does use 3WW mana in all its life, compared to 3WW mana of sacred mesa just to play it and pay the first upkeep.
- It makes 4/4 instead of 1/1s, so you don't have to worry about E.Plague and the like. They're better at attacking, and better chumpblockers: 2 of those kills Goyf and Tombstalker (and one survive). 3 kills Dreadnough (!!!).
- It's damn good when you don't have an enchantress in play, cause half of the cards you draw instantly becomes 4/4 with flying.
- No way it can be Engineered Explosived away by the opponent.

Also, you don't have to worry about answering Needle.

Since Words of War is already our kill of choice when our library is low on cards, I believe this could fill another role -- an earlier and more aggresive one. Mesa is way too defensive when you are under attack by Goyfs and such. This thing gives us the ability to race with less resources, making it much more offensive, while also serving well for defense (note that shifting roles with this is way quicker). The greatest advantage would be that you are able to keep developing your board without having to devote your entire mana pool to make it do something.

Too bad I just got my Portuguese Foil Mesa.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Sacred Mesa requires mana while this requires enchantments which equates to mana and cards. Mesa can win when you are losing from a lack of hand, an opposing army, or general board position. This can't conjure up several blockers as easily as Mesa. It's not quite win more, but Mesa can win or save you in more situations then Sigil.

[Barsoom]

Actually, i'm playing with 3 win conditions; Mesa, WoW, and Hoofprints of the Stag.
What do you think about Hoofprints of the Stag versus Sigil of the Empty Throne? Same mana 2+3 vs 5, Sigil is faster, 1 card for a 4/4 vs 4 cards and 3 mana for a 4/4, you need to draw something with both cards; all in all, Sigil seems a better card than at least this.

[GreenOne]

Sacred Mesa requires mana while this requires enchantments which equates to mana and cards. Mesa can win when you are losing from a lack of hand, an opposing army, or general board position. This can't conjure up several blockers as easily as Mesa. It's not quite win more, but Mesa can win or save you in more situations then Sigil.

Mesa requires only mana, but MUCH more mana. Specifically, 2WW for one token a turn+upkeep cost. Sigil saves you in situations where you don't have infi mana, but just some. Playing Wild Growth or Elephant Grass + 4/4 Flying for G seems to good to pass up.
Mesa requires mana, but keeps you from doing anything in your turn if you wanna use it to its full power. You also don't have to worry about cards in hand needed, cause 1 every 2 cards you draw is making a 4/4.

Without an enchantress out I see Mesa being better ONLY if you have zero cards in hand and 3WWW+ mana.

[Jaiminho]

Mesa won't allow you develop your board while producing tokens. If you are trying to save yourself by doing this and don't have enough mana to produce enough tokens so that some will live to see another turn, then you are still losing the game, except it's only taking more time for it to be over. Your opponent is developing its board and you are doing nothing.

With Sigil, you can simply drop it and not worry about anything. Getting enchantments countered will still render you a token, so you'll be both developing your board and containing threats. You are then able to turn the table and become the aggressive player. This deck runs 35 enchantments. More than half of your turns you'll be able to drop a 4/4 and that's considering the worst case of having no enchantress effects on the board. The only things you have to worry about are: 1) Getting 3WW; 2) Drawing enough (few) enchantments.

[honz]

Against most decks, Sigil of the Empty Throne is pretty much enchantress number 9-12. With each enchantment you play, it puts that much more pressure on your opponent. In combination with cards like ground seal (1G: draw a card, put a 4/4 flying token in play, and screw loam.dec) and karmic justice (your EE at 0 just became my armageddon) just make sigil insane. This card will significantly stall most decks, allowing you to get online.

I have been running 1 win-con for months (words of war), and only lost 1 game out of dozens because of it. I will now be testing 1-2 sigil and maybe even give moat another try. Obviously the only real problem is the casting cost, which is steep and prohibitive early on.

@landstill101: Your deck sounds like it is more white than green, which has given me nothing but problems. You always want 2 green sources so you can cast an enchantress (because one of them will always get nuked by: waste, stifle, port, sinkhole, hym...etc), and sprawl requires a forest. Im just curious because I run 20 lands, 5 non-basics, and have had some problems with anti-land.dec (tempo thresh, team america, geddon stax...etc).

[GreenOne]

...karmic justice (your EE at 0 just became my armageddon) just make sigil insane.
Justice doesn't work with creatures.

[Parcher]

Strictly looking at Sigil as a replacement win-con, I don't see how it is any better than Dovescape. It has one less off-colored mana, and produces one 4/4 vs. three 1/1's per enchantment. That makes it slightly superior.

Dovescape, on the other hand, shuts down every relevant spell your opponent could cast for the rest of the game. Survival can get Harmonic, or a Wickerbough. And potentially, Goblins could chain Ringleaders to keep up with your card advantage if you don't have Grass or Confinement. But unless they already have an on-board answer, no deck can beat Dovescape if it hits with Enchantress in play. I've even won with four Enchantress effects against Aggro by chumping with the creature ones, and using Replenish for the win to keep from decking.

A turn shorter clock, and the extra White that should be irrelevant if you are in this winning position, don't seem to push Sigil over the most effective lock piece in the game. Both are "win-more" in most situations, but Dovescape guarantees the win if played properly.

[georgjorge]

Dovescape, on the other hand, shuts down every relevant spell your opponent could cast for the rest of the game.

1. It also ensures you won't cast any relevant spells for the rest of the game either.

2. No relevant spells except Goyf, Tombstalker, Terravore, or most of Faerie Stompy or Dragon Stompy's or Goblins' creatures. I'm not sure you could race those if you haven't a Confinement or Grass down already. Let's see what happens if you DON'T have an Enchantress effect down and are up against a creature-heavy deck: With Dovescape, a Ground Seal and, say, a Presence will get you tokens for 5/5. With Sigil, the same spells will get you tokens for 8/8 AND the effect of those cards. It's even worse if those cards would be Oblivion Rings, Moats, Confinements, or Grasses.


You probably already took these points into consideration, but your post ignores them and makes it look like Dovescape has no drawback at all.

Also, you won't always get three Doves - three is what your most expensive spells (except two or three Replenish and Moat) cost, and the average casting cost is lower, more towards two.

[GreenOne]

Also, dovescape with too many Enchantress Presences out means you're going to generate a limited number of tokens. I lost metches with Dovescape out against Landstill for example, when i played 2 enchantments, the opponent fowed one and in his turn played EE for all his mana. 15 tokens with just 2 cards, I had to deck myself to death.

[landstill101]

Strictly looking at Sigil as a replacement win-con, I don't see how it is any better than Dovescape. It has one less off-colored mana, and produces one 4/4 vs. three 1/1's per enchantment. That makes it slightly superior.

Dovescape, on the other hand, shuts down every relevant spell your opponent could cast for the rest of the game. Survival can get Harmonic, or a Wickerbough. And potentially, Goblins could chain Ringleaders to keep up with your card advantage if you don't have Grass or Confinement. But unless they already have an on-board answer, no deck can beat Dovescape if it hits with Enchantress in play. I've even won with four Enchantress effects against Aggro by chumping with the creature ones, and using Replenish for the win to keep from decking.

A turn shorter clock, and the extra White that should be irrelevant if you are in this winning position, don't seem to push Sigil over the most effective lock piece in the game. Both are "win-more" in most situations, but Dovescape guarantees the win if played properly.

I don't see the reason to run a card to shut down an opponent(which could actually shut down your chances of winning) when the cards you play to get creatures (through dovescape)many of times do a better job. As already talked about, dovescape can actually get you killed because of cards like E.E. and force of will(which is over half of the meta) Why use that card when we have cards like wow, mesa and this new one which will prob be tested like crazy.


For the person who talked about the land problems, I run 22 lands with 10 basics and have not had a problem with wasteland ever. One of the main reasons I don't have a problem with it is because I have main deck seals which stop loam recursion(which is usually the problem) and if they run crucible(which isn't seen very often) you have karmic justice which makes their wastelands useless and I have sacred ground side to help even more.

Against much of the land hate out there, there is really only 1 deck that gives me fits, and that is usually mono black decks that run sinkhole fulminator mage and wasteland, which usually I either hope for a very land full hand or I wait till sideboard to get sacred ground, One of the things I have noticed thou is that he may blow up 3 of my lands, I only need 2-3 lands to more than run the deck which means that every land he destroys is a card out of their hand that might possibly stop you. But other than that deck(which is never seen) Usually wastelands aren't enough to stop me( I usually always get basics with the fetch lands), ports:force them to use 2 of their lands to stop 1 of mine. which in my opinion would hinder my opponent because only 2 decks run port any more, which is goblins, which you just play elephant grass and use the port to pay for the grass which just hurts the opponent. and for 42 lands, well 1 land isn't a big deal and that deck takes a couple of turns before it goes on killing rage which gives your more than enough time to get the enchantress going.

Right now I run 2 decks ITF and enchantress and usually I decide which one I play on how much combo there is(if alot I run itf) and if there is alot of land destruction(then I play enchantress)

[honz]

I completely spaced on karmic justice's ability...

About dovescape: this really is useless without an enchantress in play, because the decks you board it in against (landstill) ussually have a higher curve than you do. That's why Sigil acts like a pseudo-enchantress here, and is another must-counter for landstill. Once it hits play, you can still put pressure on them through enchantments (choke, city, enchantress, grove, aura of silence...etc) and now through creatures. They might be able to wipe the board two or three times, but you have innevitibilty.

@landstill101: i play 3 ground seals main (4th in the board), 1 justice main (2 more in the board), and 1 sacred ground SB. Even with this, i have consistantly had issues with the mana-base, and find it to be the weakest link in the deck. Maybe i just have poor luck, but i would never run that manabase....

[HdH_Cthulhu]

ports:force them to use 2 of their lands to stop 1 of mine. which in my opinion would hinder my opponent because only 2 decks run port any more, which is goblins, which you just play elephant grass and use the port to pay for the grass which just hurts the opponent. and for 42 lands, well 1 land isn't a big deal and that deck takes a couple of turns before it goes on killing rage which gives your more than enough time to get the enchantress going.



They could just tap a land after you paid the upkeep cost. Or am i missing something?

[georgjorge]

True, just wait with the Port until your draw step.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Hey, let's play Mirari's Wake too.

Fer serious?

It costs 5 mana.

IF I have Enchantresses out, I'd rather have something that costs 1 or 2 mana, 3 tops. 5 is right out.

IF I don't, then I'm stuck either playing enchantments that I'd rather save as actual Enchantress fodder, or not making use of the card.

Whereas if I was running Mesa in that slot, I could make them deal with Mesa without burning any other resources. If it takes them 3 or 4 turns to deal with it, I might draw an Enchantress by then and still have enchantments to play.

If you're in a situation where you're on plan B (ie, anything that isn't play enchantresses -> draw lots of cards), it's because you're playing against something with control. That means they probably have answers to creatures, whether that means Engineered Explosives (which now nets them card advantage because of the enchantments you had to waste getting your tokens out), Wrath of God, or just an enormous Dreadnought. Even spot removal is card parity vs any token that wasn't Ground Seal generated.



In either of those situations, Dovescape actually would be better, since neither does anything to advance your main game plan.

[Jaiminho]

Even spot removal is card parity vs any token that wasn't Ground Seal generated.

Seal of Primordium, Oblivion Ring, Runed Halo, Choke, Blood Moon, Enchantress's Presence and Elephant Grass are all enchantments that have value outside of the engine. Getting rid of the tokens generated by these will not count as card parity. Also, would someone keep spot removal in the deck for post-SB games only to deal with Sigil tokens?

[Parcher]

In either of those situations, Dovescape actually would be better, since neither does anything to advance your main game plan.

This is the only thing I've read that makes a bit of sense. Both Sigil and Dovescape are the very definition of "win-more" in this deck since they are only effective (or in this case, even playable) if you are already in a winning position. Spending that much mana on a card that does nothing on it's own is possible in Solitaire; but surely sub-optimal. Dovescape just guarantees that in the rare case that everything is already going well that you maintain this position.

Your opponent being able to drop 15 tokens is irrelevant if you have Confinement or Grass in play, which should be assured if you have an Enchantress and Dovescape. And even if not, doing so should empty their hand. You, however, will be "casting" between 6 and 10 tokens every following turn.

Also against a Control deck, all they have to do is counter Justice and your win-con is usually not a concern with the amount of sweepers and (post-sideboard) spot removal they will have. At worst they can lose half their lands to remove your entire engine, win-con included. With Dovescape in play, obviously none of this will happen. I've never lost a game against any deck when it has been cast.

But mainly, Matt is right, and 5+ mana is too much for either of these effects in this deck.

[monopoman]

I still think the card is better then Sacred Mesa in 80% of circumstances.

Switching out that card for just ONE copy of this thing seems good. I will be testing this card heavily and since like was stated.

Sacred Mesa+Upkeep is 3WW anyways its not like your losing out. This deck also can have tons of excess white mana due to our best friend serra's sanctum.

I think this card has potential and it may not be better then Mesa but I am having a hard time finding many situations where that is the case.

I also like how Needle can't shut down this card. I am not sure what you can do if they get needle for wow and mesa unless you have a way to recur artifact destruction. If they have 2 needles set at those two cards each it might be impossible to pull off until you deck yourself.

[Parcher]

The mana for Mesa is spread over two turns, which can be highly relevant. Sanctum is never a guarantee to remain for any amount of time.

WoW can't be Needled.

[GreenOne]

IF I have Enchantresses out, I'd rather have something that costs 1 or 2 mana, 3 tops. 5 is right out.

If you wanna play sacred mesa just to draw cards with it you're right, Mesa costs less.
However, if you wanna to affect the board state and wanna spend as little mana as you can, this thing is better than Mesa.


IF I don't, then I'm stuck either playing enchantments that I'd rather save as actual Enchantress fodder, or not making use of the card.

If you don't have an enchantress out and you don't wanna die, you still have to play some enchantments. It's not like the opponent is doing nothing if you don't have an enchantress out. As I stated, the only point I see are cases where you don't have an enchantress out, have little enchantments in hand (0 or 1) and have 8+ mana on board. Also, even in this case if you actually draw something relevant that you wanna play you're making less tokens that turn with mesa, but doing your job with Sigil.


Engineered Explosives (which now nets them card advantage because of the enchantments you had to waste getting your tokens out)

You play, say, Runed Halo and make a token. If the opponent plays EE for 0, how the hell did he net card advantage? He used his EE and you still have your enchantment on board. Also, it's not like you have to play your entire hand to make a clock. wtih Mesa you need to pay something like 5WWWWW (4 tokens + upkeep cost) to make the same power you can make playing a single enchantment. Playing a single enchantment or maybe 2 already pushes the opponent in a 3-5 turn clock.

an enormous Dreadnought.
With mesa you gotta spend 24 mana to kill a dreadnough, or 26 spread on 2 turns. With Sigil you need 3 enchantments. If you wanna play a solution outside this wincon (O.Ring, Runed Halo, Confinament, etc) Sigil actually makes a token for free. I really don't see a point here. Can you explain? Also, against a goyf you can chumpblock with mesa for 2WW a turn or kill it for just 6WWWWWW. With sigil you can chumpblock it if you're playing an enchantment a turn or you're killing it, playing 2 enchantments. And you'll still have a token left.

Both Sigil and Dovescape are the very definition of "win-more" in this deck since they are only effective (or in this case, even playable) if you are already in a winning position.
[...]
Also against a Control deck, all they have to do is counter Justice and your win-con is usually not a concern with the amount of sweepers and (post-sideboard) spot removal they will have. At worst they can lose half their lands to remove your entire engine, win-con included. With Dovescape in play, obviously none of this will happen. I've never lost a game against any deck when it has been cast.

I'm with you that dovescape rocks against control decks, and I'm actually playing it in the SB. The deck needs a couple wincon though, and WoW works only with Enchantress effects out. Dovescape too. I wanna play a wincondition that is good on its own, and it's better with enchantresses out. I see Sigil fills this role better unless, as stated, you have 4WWWW on board and zero/one enchantments in hand.

[Barsoom]

WoW can't be Needled.

Are you sure (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6058&highlight=words+war)?

[alderon666]

I myself like the new enchantment. It doesn't require an upkeep cost, makes a mana enchantment into a 4/4 and can be really scary once you chain a lot of enchantments in one turn and win on the next one.

Is it optimal? Better than this or that? Theorizing only does so much when optimizing a deck, some things can only be really evaluated in testing.

My 2 cents.

[Jaiminho]

The mana for Mesa is spread over two turns, which can be highly relevant. Sanctum is never a guarantee to remain for any amount of time.

On the 1st turn you simply pay 2W. Then, on the 2nd turn, you must pay 2WW to have a single Pegasus on the board. Mesa works, but it's too mana intensive and, when trying to not die to some creatures running over you, you will most likely have very few mana to continue with your main game plan. Saying Sigil is too costly makes no sense.



WoW can't be Needled.

"X: Y" constitutes an activated ability. Words of War's ability doesn't add mana to the pool. Therefore it can be needled.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

On the 1st turn you simply pay 2W. Then, on the 2nd turn, you must pay 2WW to have a single Pegasus on the board. Mesa works, but it's too mana intensive and, when trying to not die to some creatures running over you, you will most likely have very few mana to continue with your main game plan. Saying Sigil is too costly makes no sense.

Yes it does.

Sigil costs 5 just to get into play. In case people have forgotten, the point of Enchantress is to play permanents. That means, logically, we want cheap, or, preferably, free permanents.

I can't believe I have to defend the value of a low mana curve.

First of all, in an ideal build, I would run neither Mesa nor this new card. Neither advances your main game plan, and if I'm in a situation where either would be relevant (against control), Replenish will most likely be better.

HOWEVER.

If I were forced to play one for some reason I would play Mesa.

BECAUSE MESA IS A STAND ALONE THREAT AND SIGIL IS NOT.

You are not going to kill good players with Sigil.

If they don't draw an answer, or bigger threats, it doesn't matter which one you have in play, either way, they weren't going to win.

If they do have enough threats or answers to neutralize either one, you're either dead or in a stalemate.

However, if you had Mesa, and it was a stalemate, you would still have enchantments in hand. So that if you draw an Enchantress, you can break the stalemate.

If we were discussing post-board, I would rather have Dovescape, since it adds something the deck actually needs (answers to sweepers and Grip).

If I all ready have an enchantress out, I would have to give up my entire 3rd or 4th turn to play this card, which is not acceptable.

[Parcher]

Feh. Confusing Rift and WoW FTL.

[Gibbie_X]

I think he may have thought it a replacement effect like dredge and not an activated ability. Still, incorrect is incorrect.

This Sigil looks to be pretty beastly. It is a definite 'Find solution now or get beat upon', something mesa can't do. But I think the utility of Mesa is what makes it so versatile. Instant blockers helps when staring at large goyfs and mongoose, that is if you are a bad player and have no protection down. I recently played a game where Mesa saved me at 1 life.

With a resolved Sigil, as with Hoofprints, you need to wait 2 or 3 turns to get the fatties flowing. Mesa drops, sits around, then, BAM, 6 critters. The Sigil and Hoofprints are definitely cards that work best with a City of Solitude out, plopping out an unstoppable tide of flying fatties.

Sigil of the Empty Throne may deserve a place in Legacy Enchantress, but I don't think it replaces Sacred Mesa, even if it is good Counterbalance fodder. You still have Force and Daze to deal with.

[Jaiminho]

I think he may have thought it a replacement effect like dredge and not an activated ability. Still, incorrect is incorrect.

It's both. It's a replacement effect created by an activated ability.



This Sigil looks to be pretty beastly. It is a definite 'Find solution now or get beat upon', something mesa can't do. But I think the utility of Mesa is what makes it so versatile. Instant blockers helps when staring at large goyfs and mongoose, that is if you are a bad player and have no protection down. I recently played a game where Mesa saved me at 1 life.

Mesa doesn't have a surprise factor when creating its tokens. It's on the board and your mana is open, so your opponen will behave as if the tokens were there. Truth be told, Sigil won't put tokens until next turn, but it's able to put some 4/4 flying dudes the turn right after it came into play.



With a resolved Sigil, as with Hoofprints, you need to wait 2 or 3 turns to get the fatties flowing. Mesa drops, sits around, then, BAM, 6 critters. The Sigil and Hoofprints are definitely cards that work best with a City of Solitude out, plopping out an unstoppable tide of flying fatties.

You need a single turn. It creates the tokens immediately. Unless you fail to draw enchantments, you will keep tokens coming.

Mesa going BAM 6 critters takes 2W + 6WWWWWW. Add another 1W if you want them to live through your upkeep. Now that's a fuckton of mana!



Sigil of the Empty Throne may deserve a place in Legacy Enchantress, but I don't think it replaces Sacred Mesa, even if it is good Counterbalance fodder. You still have Force and Daze to deal with.

Every card in the game has to deal with Force and Daze. It's nothing relevant that, unless it has split second, it can be stopped, as this is the general rule. The real question here is whether Sigil will be good enough to ensure playability because of its restrictions: cost and enchantment dependancy. My bet is that it will replace Mesa as the 2nd win condition.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Every card in the game has to deal with Force and Daze. It's nothing relevant that, unless it has split second, it can be stopped, as this is the general rule. The real question here is whether Sigil will be good enough to ensure playability because of its restrictions: cost and enchantment dependancy. My bet is that it will replace Mesa as the 2nd win condition.

Countering a 5 mana spell is much better tempo gain than countering a 3 mana spell.

It's also a lot easier to Daze.

[JMG021283]

To be honest, I think you're undervaluing the card. I personally think it makes a great 2-3rd kill mech. I'm gonna play it and test it, but what do I know:) I personally don't think it's a good replacement for mesa but as a third option or board option I def think it has great potential.

[GreenOne]

It's also a lot easier to Daze.

Don't get me wrong, but it's not worse than Mesa if it's the first spell you're playing this turn. Those are the scenarios:

Opponent has Daze:
- With 5 mana open you're going to play Sigil. Bad move, knowing your opponent is playing Daze. Sigil gets countered. If the opponent doesn't daze the next turn you're probably making at least one 4/4.
- With 5 mana open you're playing Mesa. If the opponent Daze it you will not be able to make a token this turn, so if you want mesa to survive next turn you have to use 1W during your upkeep. And if you want it to have some impact on the game you also have to spend 1W to make a 1/1 token. You've lost 4 mana out of 5 in this turn (likely a timewalk for your opponent) to make a 1/1. You'll also have to pay 1W each turn. That's a loss of tempo.

Opponent has not daze:
- With 5 mana open you're going to play Sigil. Bad move, knowing your opponent is playing Daze. The opponent doesn't daze and next turn you're probably making at least one 4/4 while playing your enchantments.
- With 5 mana open you're playing Mesa. The opponent doesn't daze, you have to spend 1W to make a token that got sacrificed in your turn, then you can spend 2WW to make two 1/1 tokens, using almost your entire turn (likely a timewalk for your opponent) to make two 1/1. You'll also have to pay 1W each turn. That's a loss of tempo.

I see Sigil being not that worse if the opponent dazes it (I'll probably will not mantain that mesa) and being definetly better if the opponent doesn't.

[Obfuscate Freely]

Comparing this new card to Sacred Mesa is kind of silly, because Mesa is a fucking awful card that shouldn't be seeing any play.

Sigil is going to have to be much better to deserve inclusion. It seems like a powerful card to have when you can't get an enchantress effect online, so it at least bears consideration.

[landstill101]

Comparing this new card to Sacred Mesa is kind of silly, because Mesa is a fucking awful card that shouldn't be seeing any play.

Sigil is going to have to be much better to deserve inclusion. It seems like a powerful card to have when you can't get an enchantress effect online, so it at least bears consideration.

And what reason would bring this burst of hate for mesa(you cant say you hate it and not give a reason, usually that gets a warning), personally I love mesa and use it to win games all the time. it's needed especially if you don't have' tons of enchantments but have a sanctum running.

As for the new card, I'm deffinitly trying as a 1 of maybe a 2, the only thing I don't like about it is I would hate to see it in opening hand because of the mana cost, seeing mesa in opening hand isn't a bad Idea sometimes because you have to drop it turn 2-3 help win games when sigil cant be played usually before turn 4. But hey until we can test this shit out of it, we will never know how good it is.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Sigil is going to have to be much better to deserve inclusion. It seems like a powerful card to have when you can't get an enchantress effect online, so it at least bears consideration.


If I all ready have an enchantress out, I would have to give up my entire 3rd or 4th turn to play this card, which is not acceptable.


Don't get me wrong, but it's not worse than Mesa if it's the first spell you're playing this turn. Those are the scenarios:

Opponent has Daze:
- With 5 mana open you're going to play Sigil. Bad move, knowing your opponent is playing Daze. Sigil gets countered. If the opponent doesn't daze the next turn you're probably making at least one 4/4.
- With 5 mana open you're playing Mesa. If the opponent Daze it you will not be able to make a token this turn, so if you want mesa to survive next turn you have to use 1W during your upkeep. And if you want it to have some impact on the game you also have to spend 1W to make a 1/1 token. You've lost 4 mana out of 5 in this turn (likely a timewalk for your opponent) to make a 1/1. You'll also have to pay 1W each turn. That's a loss of tempo.

Opponent has not daze:
- With 5 mana open you're going to play Sigil. Bad move, knowing your opponent is playing Daze. The opponent doesn't daze and next turn you're probably making at least one 4/4 while playing your enchantments.
- With 5 mana open you're playing Mesa. The opponent doesn't daze, you have to spend 1W to make a token that got sacrificed in your turn, then you can spend 2WW to make two 1/1 tokens, using almost your entire turn (likely a timewalk for your opponent) to make two 1/1. You'll also have to pay 1W each turn. That's a loss of tempo.

I see Sigil being not that worse if the opponent dazes it (I'll probably will not mantain that mesa) and being definetly better if the opponent doesn't.

With Mesa, you are more likely to have the choice of paying for Daze enough. If you are in a situation where Mesa is a threat, being 1 token behind is better than having your threat countered.




Alix does bring us back to the real issue here;

Why do we need a second, or third, kill condition?

[Hoojo]

With Mesa, you are more likely to have the choice of paying for Daze enough. If you are in a situation where Mesa is a threat, being 1 token behind is better than having your threat countered.

Alix does bring us back to the real issue here;

Why do we need a second, or third, kill condition?

If I were to run a second win condition, I think it should be something that cannot be Needled, which is why I would consider Sigil.

I wouldn't consider Sigil because it works like Words of War being that you need to play other enchantments to make it work, so if you ran both you would have two win conditions based on the same mechanic. I think this is why Mesa is stronger; you don't have to play out other enchantments to win with Mesa.

[GreenOne]

If I were to run a second win condition, I think it should be something that cannot be Needled, which is why I would consider Sigil.

I wouldn't consider Sigil because it works like Words of War being that you need to play other enchantments to make it work, so if you ran both you would have two win conditions based on the same mechanic. I think this is why Mesa is stronger; you don't have to play out other enchantments to win with Mesa.

Mesa requires you to have Sanctum in play, otherwise it's going to cost your entire turn to make 2-3 tokens.

WoWar requires you to have enchantments in hand and at least 2 enchantresses on board, and also to splash a color. However, it's the fastest kill we have at our disposal.

Sigil requires you to have enchantments in hand or to draw them. You draw an everage of 1 enchantment every 2 cards, so, in the worst case, when you have zero enchantments in hand, you're making a 4/4 guy for free every 2 turns. To put the same power on board with mesa you have to spend 3WWW every turn. Obviously, every enchantress on board and every enchantment in hand decreases the power of Mesa (you're dropping enchantments drawing cards or making tokens), while increasing Sigil's.

[Forbiddian]

I think people supporting Mesa fail to understand that cards that answer Mesa do not necessarily answer Sigil.

Two Tarmogoyf is a pretty effective answer to Mesa. Dreadnought answers Mesa (even long after Mesa is online). Jitte answers Mesa. Trickbind answers Mesa. Goblins answers Mesa without even changing their game plan. As much as people want to say it's a one-shot wonder ("I just play Mesa and force them to deal with it"), almost all of the time, your opponent's game plan trumps your game plan, so you're still responsible for beating them or at least slowing them down. Sigil, if it resolves (I'm sure some guy will bold that, but it's just as hard to resolve Sacred Mesa and Mesa dies to Deed much more readily), can actually turn the tables on a losing board position. Mesa can only just barely tip it in your favor.


About one win con:

I think it's possible to have a good maindeck with 2 win conditions, provided that they're different and randomly selected. If you want to win a tournament, by the later rounds, people will be sure to scout your deck and know at least a few of your possible win cons. If you just have Words of War, then you literally scoop to anybody who can pull out three counterspells.

If you could theoretically protect your deck's identity through the final rounds, you'll do ok. And you'll probably do fine the first few rounds. If you actually want to get far/win, though, I think you need more than a single win con.




Sigil has some big drawbacks, mainly reliance on fast mana (Utopia Sprawl/Wild Growth).

I still think it's the one and ONLY enchantment we have that can singlehandedly win the game just on any random stray enchanments you have and the stuff you topdeck, even against a dangerous board position.

Dovescape does not. You need to resolve an Enchantress before or just a loaded hand.
Mesa does not. You still need to answer their creature threats.
Hoofprints of the Stag does not. You need an Enchantress or two, otherwise it just takes forever.
Words of War does not, obviously. Words of Wind doesn't either.

It costs much more, so it should be better. I'm just pointing out that it is much, much better than any other win con that we have so far.


I'm not sure if that makes it playable in spite of its CC, but I see a lot of people trying to dismiss it as somehow only as good as Mesa or vulnerable to the same things. It's really not. Pretty much nothing except disenchant/countermagic answers this guy. There's no playing around a steady stream of 4/4s.

Again, I'll have to test it, the casting cost looks prohibitive, but statements like


HOWEVER.

If I were forced to play one for some reason I would play Mesa.

BECAUSE MESA IS A STAND ALONE THREAT AND SIGIL IS NOT.

You are not going to kill good players with Sigil.

are just completely without merit.

[JMG021283]

I think people supporting Mesa fail to understand that cards that answer Mesa do not necessarily answer Sigil.

Two Tarmogoyf is a pretty effective answer to Mesa. Dreadnought answers Mesa (even long after Mesa is online). Jitte answers Mesa. Trickbind answers Mesa. Goblins answers Mesa without even changing their game plan. As much as people want to say it's a one-shot wonder ("I just play Mesa and force them to deal with it"), almost all of the time, your opponent's game plan trumps your game plan, so you're still responsible for beating them or at least slowing them down. Sigil, if it resolves (I'm sure some guy will bold that, but it's just as hard to resolve Sacred Mesa and Mesa dies to Deed much more readily), can actually turn the tables on a losing board position. Mesa can only just barely tip it in your favor.

I seem to remember playing moat....Could be wrong but this list is stop'd by moat: Goyf, dreadnought, jitte(as long no flying guys), trickbind doesn't interact. Also something to note, Sigil can't make guys on there turn.... no idea why that would be important. But to me it has been several times. I'm not arguing against Sigil, but I think your undervaluing Mesa. But to be honest I'd rather people not play it. I'll run it, be a lot happier and win more games.

[honz]

If you just have Words of War, then you literally scoop to anybody who can pull out three counterspells.

I have run 1 win-con for a while, and this has never really been the case. Between 3 replenish, # city of solitude, # blood moon, and 4 choke, it would be just stupid to hold 3 counterspells for WoW. Also, anyone who just tries to counter WoW is playing a dangerous game, because they have no way of knowing how many win-cons you run, or what your SB looks like.

With that said, i would seriously consider running Sigil. I view it as more of an enchantress effect than strictly a win-con. Although you don't cantrip from each enchantment, you still slow your opponents game (ussually) by forcing them to deal with your threats.

[Redlotus27]

One thing I can say about mesa is that most enchantress players usually don't drop it until its time to win with it. Once it hits, the lights go out rather quickly.

[Forbiddian]

One thing I can say about mesa is that most enchantress players usually don't drop it until its time to win with it. Once it hits, the lights go out rather quickly.

That's called a win more, which is such a buzz word, but it applies here.

Any enchantment (and a hundred other things) could fit THAT role. Mobility, Brainfreeze, Changeling. You want your win con to do stuff in situations other than "I'm dominating and my opponent can't do anything, I just need 20 damage now." It seems like you don't understand that.

A win con will be better if it can win in situations where you would have lost.




I have run 1 win-con for a while, and this has never really been the case. Between 3 replenish, # city of solitude, # blood moon, and 4 choke, it would be just stupid to hold 3 counterspells for WoW. Also, anyone who just tries to counter WoW is playing a dangerous game, because they have no way of knowing how many win-cons you run, or what your SB looks like.

With that said, i would seriously consider running Sigil. I view it as more of an enchantress effect than strictly a win-con. Although you don't cantrip from each enchantment, you still slow your opponents game (ussually) by forcing them to deal with your threats.

By the end rounds in a tournament, people will have figured out your rough deck composition. Especially since Enchantress games often go fairly late in the round, you can expect that a lot of people have scouted your deck, starting around when you're 3-0. Assuming that they haven't scouted you and that nobody will is pretty dangerous considering how you literally have no answer to that strategy.

By the way, you don't NEED three counterspells to win. With Words of War as your kill con, they can do stuff like play a Pernicious Deed and make you answer that (countering the Karmic Justice or eating it, doesn't really matter).

Or Pithing Needle and keeping your disenchant effects off the board.

Or Meddling Mage on Words of War requires you to jump through a ridiculous number of hoops (drawing to 8 cards, pitching your Words, then Replenish the next turn).

Or just Thoughtseize when Solitary Confinement is down.

Not to mention that Words of War itself requires a pretty specific board situation, involving usually three enchantress effects, a Sacred Mesa, and a lot of Enchantments in hand.


I've found with only one win con, recovering after a Deed or Disk or even EE is incredibly difficult, especially into the teeth of countermagic, and playing the killcon lockout game is by far the best strategy if they know your deck composition (even if you have two win cons, it's the best strategy), and if they even suspect that you only have the one win con, it's devastating.

[Obfuscate Freely]

And what reason would bring this burst of hate for mesa(you cant say you hate it and not give a reason, usually that gets a warning), personally I love mesa and use it to win games all the time. it's needed especially if you don't have' tons of enchantments but have a sanctum running.
Hate? I said the card is awful, not that I had some personal problem with it.

Sacred Mesa is a relic from older, slower formats in which it was actually okay to sink all of your available mana into making tiny dorks, turn after turn. In modern Legacy, spending :6::w::w::w::w::w: in order to attack with a Spectral Procession just doesn't fucking cut it. Like Forbiddian said, the card only functions reasonably once you have already won the game.

Sigil, on the other hand, is a one-time investment, and it creates tokens that are four times as large as Mesa's Pegasi. It is clearly in an entirely different league than Sacred Mesa, but that says so little about the card's value relative to the rest of the format that we still don't know if it will make the cut or not.

[JMG021283]

That's called a win more, which is such a buzz word, but it applies here.

Any enchantment (and a hundred other things) could fit THAT role. Mobility, Brainfreeze, Changeling. You want your win con to do stuff in situations other than "I'm dominating and my opponent can't do anything, I just need 20 damage now." It seems like you don't understand that.

A win con will be better if it can win in situations where you would have lost.

By the end rounds in a tournament, people will have figured out your rough deck composition. Especially since Enchantress games often go fairly late in the round, you can expect that a lot of people have scouted your deck, starting around when you're 3-0. Assuming that they haven't scouted you and that nobody will is pretty dangerous considering how you literally have no answer to that strategy.

By the way, you don't NEED three counterspells to win. With Words of War as your kill con, they can do stuff like play a Pernicious Deed and make you answer that (countering the Karmic Justice or eating it, doesn't really matter).

Or Pithing Needle and keeping your disenchant effects off the board.

Or Meddling Mage on Words of War requires you to jump through a ridiculous number of hoops (drawing to 8 cards, pitching your Words, then Replenish the next turn).

Or just Thoughtseize when Solitary Confinement is down.

Not to mention that Words of War itself requires a pretty specific board situation, involving usually three enchantress effects, a Sacred Mesa, and a lot of Enchantments in hand.


I've found with only one win con, recovering after a Deed or Disk or even EE is incredibly difficult, especially into the teeth of countermagic, and playing the killcon lockout game is by far the best strategy if they know your deck composition (even if you have two win cons, it's the best strategy), and if they even suspect that you only have the one win con, it's devastating.
To be honest, I'm not sure you're playing the same enchantress we all are.... I for one have never had a problem with deed or disk. To be honest, I love to see them. Also, you seem to have every spell you play countered.... dunno what's up with that, but I for one would give up on hypotheticals with your point of view.

If your playing enchantress and doing well in any major tourney, people know what your kill mechs are. There's really not a whole bunch of options. Good players will know the kill mechs with 90% of other decks as well. Knowing what you need to counter and what you have to counter can be a big key in every match you play no matter the deck. But guess what we have a lot they need to counter or have to counter. Not just 1-3 kill mechs. You have city of solitude, rune halo, karmic justice, solitary confinement, moat and many more depending on what you play. Btw, if those get counter you also have replenish. Needle and meddling what you want, i'm still getting stuff i need too through.

"A win con will be better if it can win in situations where you would have lost." Last time I check'd a army, even though expensive army of 1/1 flyers still blocks goyf's, tombstalkers, sea drakes and other random things to swing over for win..... but I guess that comes over the win more? Hell WoW takes care of those things.... and fills that role better.... umm.... I think not. Oh they use x-plosives on there turn to swing through.....sigil isn't gonna help there either.

Mesa, is a excellent card if you use it right. It's not a win more or win less card. It's a useful tool to the deck, if you choose to see it or not. As stated before if you dont like it, dont use it. I'll happily use it to take me farther in rounds and games.


Hate? I said the card is awful, not that I had some personal problem with it.

Sacred Mesa is a relic from older, slower formats in which it was actually okay to sink all of your available mana into making tiny dorks, turn after turn. In modern Legacy, spending :6::w::w::w::w::w: in order to attack with a Spectral Procession just doesn't fucking cut it. Like Forbiddian said, the card only functions reasonably once you have already won the game.

Sigil, on the other hand, is a one-time investment, and it creates tokens that are four times as large as Mesa's Pegasi. It is clearly in an entirely different league than Sacred Mesa, but that says so little about the card's value relative to the rest of the format that we still don't know if it will make the cut or not.

Dont be upset about a card(mesa), that you don't clearly understand it's uses in the format.. Sigil is a time investment that requires you to play cards over a turn or several turns to make use out of it. Mesa just requires mana, seems pretty simple to use and very avialible.... Archaic maybe but it works well. Can't play enchantments on other peoples turn, so if you're guys die with sigil you have to start over. To be honest, I'll take mesa over sigil any day. But as another option for a kill mech, I love the card.

[Soto]

I'd like to mention that Sacred Mesa allows you to make multiple creatures fast, that can act as blocker but also as attackers. Instead of getting your one 4/4 blocked, you can get 3 damage in. This might be important very rarely but still something to consider.

[GreenOne]

I'd like to mention that Sacred Mesa allows you to make multiple creatures fast, that can act as blocker but also as attackers. Instead of getting your one 4/4 blocked, you can get 3 damage in. This might be important very rarely but still something to consider.

In this situation you have a blocker and the possibility to make 4 tokens a turn (remember, 8 mana, not just little). With your strategy your damage progression is 0+2+5+8+11, killing your opponent on the 5th turn.

Case 1:
Turn1 - Pay upkeep, make other 3 tokens
Turn2 - Upkeep, attack for 2, make 3 tokens
Turn3 - Upkeep, attack for 5, make 3 tokens
Turn4 - Upkeep, attack for 8, make 3 tokens
Turn5 - Upkeep, attack for 11, make 3 tokens

With Sigil and 3 enchantments in hand (assuming you draw an average number of enchantments):

Case 2:
Turn1 - Make 2 tokens
Turn2 - Make 1 token
Turn3 - Make 1 token
Turn4 - Swing for 12
Turn5 - Swing for 8

Case 2 is obviously better, because you get to play enchantments (improve your board position) and gets blockers that are killing eventual attackers, insted of chumpblocks. Also case 2 makes wonders with an enchantress in play and/or with less than 4WWWW mana.

Case 1 is better only if
- you have that amount of mana
- AND no enchantresses in play
- AND you don't need to improve your board position
- AND the blocker has more than 4 thoughtness
- AND you draw less than average enchantments and have less than 4 enchantments in hand or you have less than 2 enchantments in hand and you don't draw above average enchantments.

So this is not a point.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Again, I'll have to test it, the casting cost looks prohibitive, but statements like



are just completely without merit.

How so?

Sigil isn't a stand alone threat. And Mesa is. Which one do you think is untrue?

[Jaiminho]

How so?

Sigil isn't a stand alone threat. And Mesa is. Which one do you think is untrue?

When 35 out of 60 cards of your deck support a card, it won't ever be standing alone.

[frolll]

Listen to Spat on this one guys.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Reading the comments, I don't think the people who are bashing Sacred Mesa have ever actually played with or against Sacred Mesa. Call it the Bitterblossom lesson; it's easy to dismiss 1/1 flying tokens because individually they're not even worth a card slot. But a metric fuckton of them fuck your shit up by blocking multiple cards with one card (functional card advantage) and then flying over to fucking kill you.

They're like drops of water. The only movie Robin Williams was actually good in. "A little rain never hurt anyone." "No, but a lot of it will fucking kill you."

I may have added that expletive.

Still.

Fucking pegasi.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

When 35 out of 60 cards of your deck support a card, it won't ever be standing alone.

First of all, it's 32 or so.

Second of all, when you have to burn through your enchantress fodder to activate your plan B, that's a problem.

If they can answer Sigil, you were forced to burn all your other resources with it. So if you topdeck a Replenish or Enchantress, you're still in trouble.

If they can answer Mesa, you didn't have to expend any other resources with it.

[Jaiminho]

Listen to Spat on this one guys.

Now I will. Just because you are saying so.



First of all, it's 32 or so.

Yeah, I forgot to count Mox. Still more than half of the deck.



Second of all, when you have to burn through your enchantress fodder to activate your plan B, that's a problem.

If they can answer Sigil, you were forced to burn all your other resources with it. So if you topdeck a Replenish or Enchantress, you're still in trouble.

You mean answer Sigil and its creatures. Only Deed can do that alone. Your opponent would need at least 2 cards to answer it after you made tokens with it. Sure, you give him a 2 turns window (counting your own) to have something to destroy it, if you don't have mana to create tokens right away.



If they can answer Mesa, you didn't have to expend any other resources with it.

Except a bunch of land taps. You say getting Sigil countered a worse tempo loss than getting Mesa countered, and this is true, but you simply don't worry about the tempo loss of them answering an online Mesa comparing to them answering an online Sigil. You spent 1W each turn Mesa was on the board while you spent nothing while Sigil was there and tried to at least develop your board. Also, you don't need to go all in with enchantments with Sigil. It's like saying you must spend every drop of mana you can with Mesa when you can actually play something. The difference is that Mesa takes more mana to produce smaller tokens.

I can't see why you advocate that doing nothing and waiting to find an enchantress effect is better than actually trying to play the game while creating some big 4/4s. Your opponent will not wait until you do something to start playing.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

I never said anything about tempo loss.

Saying that anything is tempo loss when you're playing Enchantress without an enchantress is like saying that reading Atlas Shrugged is a waste of time when you're cast away on a desert island.

Tempo loss means nothing when you're in top deck mode.

Your odds of winning with Sigil in such a situation don't appear anywhere near good enough to justify its inclusion.

Your 4/4's in sufficient numbers may stop Goyf's, but Goyfs also stop them. And you're not dealing with an unlimited number of tokens. You have to burn your most precious resources (cards in hand) to get them.

And in such a stand-off, a single Engineered Explosives would be devestating.

[GreenOne]

And in such a stand-off, a single Engineered Explosives would be devestating.

An Oblivion Ring, a Moat, a Runed Halo or even a Solitay Confinament Would be devastating for them too, allowing me to attack for 12ish a turn.

You're always taking as an example a situation that favors Sacred Mesa, but such a situation doesn't occour enough to justify it.

Mesa is better when:
- you have at least 8 mana
- AND no enchantresses in play
- AND you don't need to improve your board position
- AND the blocker your opponent has has more than 4 thoughtness
- AND you draw less than average enchantments and have less than 4 enchantments in hand or you have less than 2 enchantments in hand and you don't draw above average enchantments.
or when:

Mesa is useless when:
- You don't have enough mana (or just white mana)
- You have an enchantress out, so you want to draw some cards. In this case it's even worse, cause it keeps you off of 1W a turn that would have helped you to play another enchantment
- You want to improve your board position. If you improve your board position you create less tokens.

So to sum it, Mesa seems worse if:
- Your opponent has a Jitte online (Faerie stompy, Dragon Stompy)
- Your opponent needled it (every trinket-deck)
- Your opponent can attack into 1/1s with multiple creatures (Goyf sligh, Goblins)
- Your opponent is attacking with a Dreadnough (Dreadstill)
- Your opponent is playing a mana denial deck (Team America, Eva Green, Aggro-loam, Armageddon Stax)
- Your opponent is playing propaganda effects (Armageddon Stax, MUC)
- Your opponent is playing CB and has 3cc in the deck (Dreadstill, ITF)
That's roughly half of the decks to beat and a good number of the established decks.


Do you agree with this analysis?
If not, which points are missing and which ones have to be modified/cut?

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

So to sum it, Mesa seems worse if:
- Your opponent has a Jitte online (Faerie stompy, Dragon Stompy)

Neither card is relevant against either deck, because neither deck can impede plan A.


- Your opponent needled it (every trinket-deck)

They have equal or greater access to EE.


- Your opponent can attack into 1/1s with multiple creatures (Goyf sligh, Goblins)

Neither card is relevant against either deck, because neither deck can impede plan A.


- Your opponent is attacking with a Dreadnough (Dreadstill)

Neither card is likely to help you in such a situation.

To stop a Dreadnought you need to get 3 tokens to stick in blocking vs. 6 Stifles, Standstills, Engineered Explosives and Trinket Mages. Plus potentially Echoing Truth.


- Your opponent is playing a mana denial deck (Team America, Eva Green, Aggro-loam, Armageddon Stax)

What makes you think that you're going to get to 5 mana (double white) against them and not be dead all ready?


- Your opponent is playing propaganda effects (Armageddon Stax, MUC)

The first is irrelevant for reasons stated above.

MUC also runs Shackles and Powder Keg.


- Your opponent is playing CB and has 3cc in the deck (Dreadstill, ITF)
That's roughly half of the decks to beat and a good number of the established decks.

Whereas Sigil is worse against decks that have a way to deal with a couple of large(ish) creatures.

Are they any viable decks in Legacy that don't have a way to deal with a 4/4 flyer?


Here's a challenge; in what situation is it better to have a Sigil than it is to have Replenish?

[Mijorre]

Ohh, I know this one.
When the opponent has had a leyline of the void down.

[GreenOne]

Neither card is relevant against either deck, because neither deck can impede plan A.

Faerie stompy has Fow to mess with plan A.
Goblins has Warren Weirding.



They have equal or greater access to EE.

Yeah, they can EE for 3 to get Mesa (and your presences/Confinaments/Rings/whatever) or for 0 to get your tokens.
They, however, can't EE for 5 to take Sigil.



What makes you think that you're going to get to 5 mana (double white) against them and not be dead all ready?

If I'm not getting to 5 mana (double white) then Mesa is useless too. However, if I hit 5 mana sigil actually does something, where Mesa doesn't.


MUC also runs Shackles and Powder Keg.

And they're siding them out.


Whereas Sigil is worse against decks that have a way to deal with a couple of large(ish) creatures.

Only pre-SB.



Here's a challenge; in what situation is it better to have a Sigil than it is to have Replenish?
I'm already running 3 Replenishes MD. I believe a 4th would be a little redundant, and I do prefer a deck with 2 wincon. So the challenge is always the same: what is better? Mesa or Sigil?

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Faerie stompy has Fow to mess with plan A.
Goblins has Warren Weirding.

Which should almost never be sufficient to stop you between Enchantresses, Replenish, and Grove.


Yeah, they can EE for 3 to get Mesa (and your presences/Confinaments/Rings/whatever) or for 0 to get your tokens.
They, however, can't EE for 5 to take Sigil.

Or they could just EE for 0 and take out all your tokens.


If I'm not getting to 5 mana (double white) then Mesa is useless too. However, if I hit 5 mana sigil actually does something, where Mesa doesn't.

If you're drawing neither mana nor your actual threats, your luck is terrible.


And they're siding them out.

Only pre-SB.

But they're leaving in Propaganda?


I'm already running 3 Replenishes MD. I believe a 4th would be a little redundant, and I do prefer a deck with 2 wincon. So the challenge is always the same: what is better? Mesa or Sigil?

Why?

Why do you prefer a deck with 2 wincons?

Do you run into a lot of people playing Extract?

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Do you agree with this analysis?
If not, which points are missing and which ones have to be modified/cut?

Sigil isnt win more

But your analysis is just win more! Ok you pointed out that sigil is theoretical better than sacred mesa in about 80% of time.

So only testing will show!

[hi-val]

I've got a serious mechanical question to ask, to divert us from the Sigil discussion : )

I'm running into problems against decks with FOW that can sit on their FOWs and end up countering all of my win conditions. If I've got 2 plus 2 Replenishes, between countertop and FOW, they can reasonably counter all of them. I'm running Chokes over City of Solitudes, but I feel like it's not worth it to run one City and have to tutor for it anyway. Has anyone else run into the problem where they've got the game locked up with Moat or Confinement or Halo and can't actually get past opposing FOWs? The time when it came up, I had fewer cards in my library than my opponent and would lose to decking. Should I be aggressively trying to get my wincons on the table? Baiting counters? Just hoping my opponents don't realize that they can sit on FOW? Should I hold my Replenishes for longer? Is it worth it to run 3 wincons or something like Words of Waste on the board for these matches?

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Um. If their four counters include Counter-Top, then they also need to counter your Disenchant effects.

What turn are you going off? Without disruption it should be 5-6.

[hi-val]

Um. If their four counters include Counter-Top, then they also need to counter your Disenchant effects.

What turn are you going off? Without disruption it should be 5-6.

Yep, I am hitting around there. I'm finding that I can get the ball rolling on the engine, but a single FOW can set me back a little bit if they counter my wincon, especially if I've already used up a Replenish to get back something like Choke or Sterling Grove or both. My postboard plan is certainly to bring in Replenish #3 or 4, but any tips on the first game?

If you're still having trouble understanding what I'm trying to say (and I'm probably not doing a great job!) then I can post some abbreviated game synopses later to show the example a little better.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Well that'd probably help.

Although my advice would be to run 3 Replenishes MD.

[GreenOne]

Which should almost never be sufficient to stop you between Enchantresses, Replenish, and Grove.




Or they could just EE for 0 and take out all your tokens.

Yeah, with mesa too. I just need to play a couple enchantment and put the opponent in a 3 turn clock with sigil (and still have/draw a couple enchantments in hand). You don't need to overextend.


What makes you think that you're going to get to 5 mana (double white) against them and not be dead all ready?



If I'm not getting to 5 mana (double white) then Mesa is useless too. However, if I hit 5 mana sigil actually does something, where Mesa doesn't.



If you're drawing neither mana nor your actual threats, your luck is terrible.

I don't understand. When did I say I never drew actual threats? I just pointed out that when on 5 mana Sigil starts to work, where Mesa does not.


Why do you prefer a deck with 2 wincons?

Do you run into a lot of people playing Extract?
Yesterday I had my Words of War Thoughtseized and Extirpated. I won that game.

[honz]

Yesterday I had my Words of War Thoughtseized and Extirpated. I won that game.

To be honest, this is such a freak occurance that i wouldn't give it too much thought. This not only requires both players to be holding the perfect set of cards, but also requires that you have neither ground seal or confinement in play. However, crypt / relic often get sided in against replenish, and then can get lucky with sieze/hym/specter...etc I am begining to run 2, mainly because of that. I would imagine playing 1 win-con in the main and 1 in the board would work rather nicely.

@ hi-val: i really fail to see the problem here. Between 2 win-cons, 3 replenish (i think 3 is the right number) you already outnumber their 4 forces. If they are holding all their counters, then you should be able to go off (finding all said cards) before they find even 3 of those forces. Also, since they aren't countering anything, you should be able to hold onto those replenish. Post board, you have # choke / # blood moon / #city of solitude to slow their cantrips, and provide more must-counters. If counterbalance is the problem, run more aura of silence / oblivion ring / seal of primordium.

[GreenOne]

In another game that happened vs black based control the opponent thoughtseized and extirpated my Presences. Then he played plague on my argothians. It was almost impossible to find an Oblivion Ring / Aura of silence for his plague and then topdeck one of the 3 Argothians I had before he could topdeck another Plague / Extirpate/ he would win. So I tutored Sacred mesa, making 2 tokens a turn. He fund a plague (pegasus) and I lost. Sigil would have saved me here.

[honz]

In another game that happened vs black based control the opponent thoughtseized and extirpated my Presences. Then he played plague on my argothians. It was almost impossible to find an Oblivion Ring / Aura of silence for his plague and then topdeck one of the 3 Argothians I had before he could topdeck another Plague / Extirpate/ he would win. So I tutored Sacred mesa, making 2 tokens a turn. He fund a plague (pegasus) and I lost. Sigil would have saved me here.

Agressively mull into ground seal? Sometimes you just loose games. Not many people are playing plagues and extirpates (short of survival), but if your meta is full of extirpate.dec, perhaps its time to play a different deck.

[Forbiddian]

About my comment earlier:

Sacred Mesa is not a standalone threat. How do people think 8 mana for support is nothing? Ok, if you're ridiculously mana flooded and you hit 8 land drops and have never draw a single enchantment, then sure, Sacred Mesa is "standalone." Other than that, it relies on a lot of enchantments already on the board.

In a real game, you get to 8 mana off of Serra's Sanctum and a stack of wild growth effects. Any board sweepers or wastelands really inhibit Sanctum. To say nothing of the upkeep cost inhibiting Elephant Grass.

Say you have the reasonable board: Ground Seal, Mesa, two wild growths (and maybe an exploration thrown in), 3 land, and a sanctum. This is a great time to have Mesa, you're really threat light and have a lot of mana.


You get 9-10 mana a turn. Engineered Explosives @ 1 in this case strips you down to 5 mana a turn. Wasteland strips you down to 5.

But even worse, say you keep Sacred Mesa in your hand, because it's a "standalone threat." Your opponent sweeps your board. Now you have a pitiful three mana per turn to generate a net 0 tokens. Nice. Of course in this situation, Sigil couldn't be resolved, either, but Sacred Mesa is JUST AS DEAD in its glorious "I'm a Standalone Threat, I need no help from other cards."


Sigil requires you to draw into threats. Sacred Mesa requires you to have a lot of enchantments on the board and a Serra's Sanctum. Both require at least WW and probably 6 mana to be effective at all.


I fail to understand how one is condemned as dependent on other cards and the other is considered a standalone bomb.

Again, I like Sacred Mesa, and I'll test Sigil, but my gut tells me I'll probably stick with Mesa. Still, I won't delude myself into thinking that Sacred Mesa is some sort of standalone threat in the current metagame. It requires me to have a lot of enchantments on the board and either a Serra's Sanctum or a lot more land and a lot more enchantments.

Sacred Mesa probably WAS a standalone threat against like ~ landstill. In the modern game, it's not. Most decks would gladly force me to pay 1W upkeep every turn just to stay alive for each creature they have (fewer turns against Grass), and a lot of decks run Jitte or mana denial.


Sacred Mesa is still fairly effective in those situations, but it requires the rest of the deck to be firing on all cylinders. Certainly not a standalone threat (epitomized by, say, Morphling).

[landstill101]

About my comment earlier:

Sacred Mesa is not a standalone threat. How do people think 8 mana for support is nothing? Ok, if you're ridiculously mana flooded and you hit 8 land drops and have never draw a single enchantment, then sure, Sacred Mesa is "standalone." Other than that, it relies on a lot of enchantments already on the board.

In a real game, you get to 8 mana off of Serra's Sanctum and a stack of wild growth effects. Any board sweepers or wastelands really inhibit Sanctum. To say nothing of the upkeep cost inhibiting Elephant Grass.

Say you have the reasonable board: Ground Seal, Mesa, two wild growths (and maybe an exploration thrown in), 3 land, and a sanctum. This is a great time to have Mesa, you're really threat light and have a lot of mana.


You get 9-10 mana a turn. Engineered Explosives @ 1 in this case strips you down to 5 mana a turn. Wasteland strips you down to 5.

But even worse, say you keep Sacred Mesa in your hand, because it's a "standalone threat." Your opponent sweeps your board. Now you have a pitiful three mana per turn to generate a net 0 tokens. Nice. Of course in this situation, Sigil couldn't be resolved, either, but Sacred Mesa is JUST AS DEAD in its glorious "I'm a Standalone Threat, I need no help from other cards."


Sigil requires you to draw into threats. Sacred Mesa requires you to have a lot of enchantments on the board and a Serra's Sanctum. Both require at least WW and probably 6 mana to be effective at all.


I fail to understand how one is condemned as dependent on other cards and the other is considered a standalone bomb.

Again, I like Sacred Mesa, and I'll test Sigil, but my gut tells me I'll probably stick with Mesa. Still, I won't delude myself into thinking that Sacred Mesa is some sort of standalone threat in the current metagame. It requires me to have a lot of enchantments on the board and either a Serra's Sanctum or a lot more land and a lot more enchantments.

Sacred Mesa probably WAS a standalone threat against like ~ landstill. In the modern game, it's not. Most decks would gladly force me to pay 1W upkeep every turn just to stay alive for each creature they have (fewer turns against Grass), and a lot of decks run Jitte or mana denial.


Sacred Mesa is still fairly effective in those situations, but it requires the rest of the deck to be firing on all cylinders. Certainly not a standalone threat (epitomized by, say, Morphling).


And a deck like this when you do draw some cards with ground seal and the enchantress effects, you should not have a problem getting to omg 4 lands, really, how often do you get stuck at 3 lands? More than most of the time I have to many and use them for discard with confinemnt.

4 mana is enough for it to be stand alone, this will produce 1 guy a turn to block, but while you are blocking, (omg no one has noticed this) you are still drawing cards, which can draw you into more lands, or other enchantments which help. So yes it is a stand alone card, because it doesn't matter if you draw a land or an enchantment, you can still make guys, but with sigil, if you draw a land, you don't get a guy.

[Jaiminho]

And a deck like this when you do draw some cards with ground seal and the enchantress effects, you should not have a problem getting to omg 4 lands, really, how often do you get stuck at 3 lands? More than most of the time I have to many and use them for discard with confinemnt.

4 mana is enough for it to be stand alone, this will produce 1 guy a turn to block, but while you are blocking, (omg no one has noticed this) you are still drawing cards, which can draw you into more lands, or other enchantments which help. So yes it is a stand alone card, because it doesn't matter if you draw a land or an enchantment, you can still make guys, but with sigil, if you draw a land, you don't get a guy.

One pegasus will block only one attacker. Also, why would you want to draw enchantments, if you won't have mana to play them? Mesa's being overrated here. You can't just drop it on turn 3 and hope to win the game.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

You guys don't understand the deck.

Neither Mesa nor Sigil are part of your plan A. The only situation where either one would be of any value to the deck is when you have no better threats (Enchantresses, Replenish, Grove).

Saying that the mana you have to sink into Mesa is equivalent to the cards and mana you have to sink into Sigil is an indication that you don't appreciate what function either one would serve in your deck.

And playing unnecessary cards because the opponent might Thoughtseize your 1 win con if its in your opening hand, might actually be running MD Extirpate, might have drawn said Extirpate, and you didn't have Ground Seal, is a ridiculous case of giving into the fear.

I'll take my chances.

[GreenOne]

I'll take my chances.
I don't believe in the history of magic there were a control deck playing 1x wincondition in the entire deck. The 2 winconditions are here to make it easier to win once you are stalling the game. For eg. if the opponent has a Meddling/needle naming your wincon, it's easier to just tutor the other one, than to remove the needle (if you have O.Rings left) and then tutor for the other wincon. Other than that, it's not usually a bad thing to see 1 wincondition in the first 20-25 cards or so.
Note that Sigil/Mesa act like a wincondition but also as a control card, providing a good number of blockers (Mesa) or some number of big blockers (Sigil).
It's not like I never wished that Mesa was Oblivion Ring or something else, but I'm generally happy to see a wincondition my opponent has to deal with (by the time I see it), and sometimes Mesa did the job (worse, but it worked) to stall the ground anyway. I hope Sigil will fill that role better. I'll test the card once it's out.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Why is the history of other decks relevant to how many kill conditions this deck should run?

Especially since this isn't a control deck?

[GreenOne]

Why is the history of other decks relevant to how many kill conditions this deck should run?
Especially since this isn't a control deck?
It's not relevant, but I just wanted to point it out, cause it's quite strange.
But anyway, this IS a control deck:
- It plays a HUGE amount of control cards (Grass, Ring, Confinament, Moat, Ground Seal, Runed Halo). Something like 1/3 or 1/4 of the deck
- It plays a CA engine in enchantresses and Replenish and card selection in Sterling Grove.
- It plays only a few winconditions
- It does win only after it has stabilized the board, and NEVER before turn 4.

It's definetly not aggro, and it wants to have some sort of board control before winning, so it's not combo.
I'd definetly say it's a Control deck, but if you want it, you can call it Control-Combo.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

On the other hand it has no card selection or disruption.

Card advantage can be part of any deck. You don't need to stabilize the board to win, you just need to stall against aggro decks. Running few win cons is common to both combo and control.


But ultimately, the labels are outdated anyway.

[GreenOne]

On the other hand it has no card selection or disruption.

Card advantage can be part of any deck.

But ultimately, the labels are outdated anyway.

Disruption is everything that generally mess with your opponent's gameplan, being it removal (O.Ring), something that slows down (Grass), something that mess with their graveyard recursion (Ground Seal), etc.

Tutors and cantrips are almost the definition of card selection. Our deck plays 4x Sterling Grove. Check.

Card advantage can be part of any deck, but in fact is not. Canadian Thrash, Team America and Goyf Sligh don't play any form of card advantage, for example.

Labels can be outdated, but it's important to be aware of who's the beatdown in the match. And our role is more than often to be the control deck.


You don't need to stabilize the board to win, you just need to stall against aggro decks.
Well, let's suppose that I took some points of damage in the early game against an aggro deck. If I stall and still take some points each turn I'm probably going to lose (eg. I'm stalling with Elephant Grass, so I'm taking only 4 a turn by a Goyf). I need to keep a confinament up, or to completely shut down opponent's creatures (Moat, O.Ring, Halo) before winning or the opponent could just attack or burn me ftw.

[Forbiddian]

On the other hand it has no card selection or disruption.

Card advantage can be part of any deck. You don't need to stabilize the board to win, you just need to stall against aggro decks. Running few win cons is common to both combo and control.

But ultimately, the labels are outdated anyway.


Uh, you pretty much need to stabilize the board to win. I've never seen someone go off with Words without being at least able to dig to and resolve a Solitary.

But the main problem I have is this distinction between card advantage and card selection. If you draw three cards and DON'T HAVE TO PUT TWO BACK why is that somehow worse than Brainstorm? Or somehow put into a different category.

Card selection is about seeing more cards. Also, this deck typically runs 1-2 copies of sylvan library and/or mirri's guile.

And it runs disruption elements like Ground Seal (how do you not consider that disruption), Moat, etc. Are you defining disruption as countermagic or discard only?

[hi-val]

I played around with two Sigils in the deck over Mesa and Words. I'd hope everyone else weighing in with their opinion has done the same, so nobody's just spinning wheels. It takes significantly less time to goldfish a hand than write a forum post! Anyway, in the limited work I did, I found that when Sigil shines, it's when you have one or two Enchantresses out and you can chain Sprawls and Wild Growths together with other cheap enchantments and end up with 5 angels on the board at the end of the turn. In that sense, it gives the opponent a lot less time to get Explosives going or something else to stop the token rush.

I'm still out on whether it's worthy or not but I was much more impressed with it than I thought I would be.

[GreenOne]

I played around with two Sigils in the deck over Mesa and Words. I'd hope everyone else weighing in with their opinion has done the same, so nobody's just spinning wheels. It takes significantly less time to goldfish a hand than write a forum post! Anyway, in the limited work I did, I found that when Sigil shines, it's when you have one or two Enchantresses out and you can chain Sprawls and Wild Growths together with other cheap enchantments and end up with 5 angels on the board at the end of the turn. In that sense, it gives the opponent a lot less time to get Explosives going or something else to stop the token rush.

I'm still out on whether it's worthy or not but I was much more impressed with it than I thought I would be.

I had a bit of goldfish with it (single copy -1 Mesa +1 Sigil), but goldfish is not relevant in a deck that has so much interaction with the opponent. However, the pressure that this enchantment keeps on the opponent wants him ro find some solution really fast, I agree with you.

[Gibbie_X]

But ultimately, the labels are outdated anyway.


Agreed...


How can you not call a deck Aggro when 1 win-con is flying beat sticks? It may either fit in all the types, or start a new type. In order to fit in Combo, you would be playing Beasts or PandaBurst. Well, with this new Sigil, that is a combo all by itself. What about prison, seeing that you lock yourself in a bubble and wait to smash, not leaving you opponent much room to maneuver.

[GreenOne]

How can you not call a deck Aggro when 1 win-con is flying beat sticks?
Back in the days monoblue control was running a couple of Morphling as finishers. You couldn't call it aggro, though.

According to Wikipedia:
Aggro (short for "aggressive"),(may also be known as "beatdown") is a strategy that aims to win as quickly as possible. This is usually done by aiming for maximum damage output in the early turns and often places a heavy emphasis on using creatures as efficient damage sources


It may either fit in all the types, or start a new type. In order to fit in Combo, you would be playing Beasts or PandaBurst. Well, with this new Sigil, that is a combo all by itself. What about prison, seeing that you lock yourself in a bubble and wait to smash, not leaving you opponent much room to maneuver.
This deck is clearly of the Control or Prison type. Yeah, labels can be outdated, but you still need to realize what your plan is. And definetly the main plan of this deck is reach control of the board and then win.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

That's ridiculous.

Your goal is to win.

Period.

Every deck's goal is to win.

How you get there depends on what deck you're playing against.

[GreenOne]

That's ridiculous.

Your goal is to win.

Period.

Every deck's goal is to win.

How you get there depends on what deck you're playing against.

What a great piece of knowledge. Thanks for pointing out that the goal, in that magical game, is to win. However, decks are following different paths to reach the winning status.

Against everything that's faster than you (anything non-control) you want to stabilize the board and then win. You're the control deck in those matchups.
Check out the classic "Who's the beatdown (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/3692.html)" by Flores for more info.

[Obfuscate Freely]

Enchantress is a highly-aggressive combo deck. This may be unintuitive, but it is the correct way to understand the deck as it exists in this format. Mislabeling Enchantress as a control deck betrays some level of confusion about the deck's fundamental strategy, and this confusion will hinder a person's ability to build and play Enchantress optimally.

We have had this discussion, before, and it is for the sake of clearing this up quickly that I will directly quote myself from an older thread. Following the link in the quote heading will reveal several pages of further discussion, but not all of it focuses on Enchantress.

The archetype triangle of aggro, combo, and control, along with the slightly more thorough idea of The Metagame Clock (http://web.archive.org/web/20000528022701/thedojo.com/b001/bo.000321lwo.shtml%20) (which adds aggro-control and midgame to the list), are both attempts to describe decks strategically.

Defining a deck's archetype is not the same as assigning it a role, a la Who's the Beatdown (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=3692%20). A deck can be the beatdown or the control deck in a given matchup regardless of whether it is an aggro deck, a combo deck, or a control deck in a general strategic sense.

Aggro decks apply proactive pressure with a critical mass of individual threat cards.

Combo decks apply proactive pressure with cards that synergize with each other. These decks have very few cards that are threats on their own.

Control decks are reactive; they force interaction (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/8895.html) with the opponent in order to leverage a long-game advantage.

Hybrid strategies can adopt different qualities of each of these archetypes. Both combo-control and aggro-control decks blur the line between reactive and proactive by being able to switch roles mid-game. Aggro-combo decks are undoubtedly proactive, but combine cards that are individually strong with cards that increase in value in conjunction with other cards. Most decks are hybridized to some degree, which is why the Metagame Clock definitions can seem outdated or inadequate. After all, The Metagame Clock was originally written to define how decks actually matched up against each other, but the terms are no longer very good at predicting how one deck will fare against another.

However, the terms are still useful because correctly identifying a deck strategically gives you at least some insight into how it functions, and how to beat it with another deck, but you do have to apply them correctly. For example, if you call Enchantress a control deck, and then lose a match against it because you misassign your role, it is because you misapplied the term, not because Jack Elgin needs to redefine it.

Enchantress is a combo deck. It has a proactive, synergy-based game plan and a fundamental turn between 2 and 4, depending on the matchup. When you are playing against Enchantress, unless your deck can goldfish faster than that, you should assume the role of the control deck. What this means is that you have to force the Enchantress player to interact in order to stop him or her from blowing you out of the game.

Goblins attempts to do this with Wasteland and Port. After boarding, Goblins also brings in any Disenchant effects it has access to. Pyrostatic Pillar is another strong option, since it increases Goblins' fundamental turn significantly.

Gro attempts to do this with countermagic. Note that Gro's countermagic has to aim for the Enchantress effects. If the Gro player holds his or her counters for Confinement, and tries to race, Enchantress will get its gameplan online and accelerate to a point at which counters are no longer able to stop it from just winning the game.

[landstill101]

Enchantress is a highly-aggressive combo deck. This may be unintuitive, but it is the correct way to understand the deck as it exists in this format. Mislabeling Enchantress as a control deck betrays some level of confusion about the deck's fundamental strategy, and this confusion will hinder a person's ability to build and play Enchantress optimally.

We have had this discussion, before, and it is for the sake of clearing this up quickly that I will directly quote myself from an older thread. Following the link in the quote heading will reveal several pages of further discussion, but not all of it focuses on Enchantress.

Your post is very informative, but wrong in many sense because those terms are not used in the same way because of the quicker pace of matches in tournaments now a days, The terms are quite simple.

Aggro, uses creatures and spells(mainly creatures) in a quick fashion to kill your opponent, most of the time an aggro player does not want to see late game, because they will run out of card advantage because they don't have anything that draws.

combo, combo is not just cards that work with each other, its cards working together to kill an opponent within 1-3 turns to be faster than the aggro player. most of the time a pure combo deck will use cards that have storm because of the simplisty to "combo off" combo usually do not have disruption because it slows down the combo(yes some decks to main board stuff like duress)

control, very simple here, you play cards that will control the game and force the game to go in to what is called late game because you play slower more explosive cards to shut down their opponent to finish them off later.

If you go by this, you can look at all the decks in this format and can name what they are and it will be pretty close to the same as everyone else labeling their decks the way they are.

Enchantress is a control deck. Combo is meant to be fast. Combo is called combo because you can combo off at any time from turn 1 to turn 10. Enchantress can't do that.



If you want to call enchantress a combo deck then that means AGGRO loam is a combo deck too since they use the combo kill of Seismic Assault.


Oh and ENCHANTRESS CAN'T KILL BEFORE TURN 4....... NEVER. Soo that kind of makes your post out of date and needs to be redone.

[Obfuscate Freely]

Aggro, uses creatures and spells(mainly creatures) in a quick fashion to kill your opponent, most of the time an aggro player does not want to see late game, because they will run out of card advantage because they don't have anything that draws.

combo, combo is not just cards that work with each other, its cards working together to kill an opponent within 1-3 turns to be faster than the aggro player. most of the time a pure combo deck will use cards that have storm because of the simplisty to "combo off" combo usually do not have disruption because it slows down the combo(yes some decks to main board stuff like duress)

control, very simple here, you play cards that will control the game and force the game to go in to what is called late game because you play slower more explosive cards to shut down their opponent to finish them off later.
Why does an aggro deck have to use creatures? Why does a combo deck have to kill within a certain number of turns? These may be trends that we see in successful examples of the archetypes, but they are not intrinsic to either strategic definition.

Your definition of the control archetype seems to highlight interaction as the key aspect of a controlling strategy, as does the definition I quoted. However, the strategy of Enchantress, on a fundamental level, is neither reactive nor interactive; Enchantress seeks to put its own plan into action, first and foremost, and killing the opponent is part of that plan. Enchantress also lacks any real long-game advantages, and rarely enjoys any kind of inevitability against another deck.

Enchantress is a control deck. Combo is meant to be fast. Combo is called combo because you can combo off at any time from turn 1 to turn 10. Enchantress can't do that.
Speed has absolutely nothing to do with a deck's strategic archetype. This is a fundamental flaw in your understanding of the terms, and their uses.

An aggro deck that is too slow to be competitive is not a control deck; it is a bad aggro deck. The same is true for combo.

Oh and ENCHANTRESS CAN'T KILL BEFORE TURN 4....... NEVER. Soo that kind of makes your post out of date and needs to be redone.
I did not say that Enchantress can or does kill the opponent before turn four, but that it has a fundamental turn between two and four. You can read up on that concept here (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/3688.html), in another classic theory article.

The fundamental turn of Enchantress in most matchups is defined either by when an Enchantress resolves, or when a sustainable Solitary Confinement resolves. Note that both of these elements of the deck are proactive; you actively spend resources to find and protect these cards, and winning the game is generally dependent on doing so.

[Guevera59]

Hey guys, I'm new to the Enchantress Archetype. I always dismissed as a kind of mediocre deck that loses instantly to a resolved Deed. Well, I tested the deck out and not only am I wrong about the Deed, but its really an awesome deck that pulls wins out of its ass. Here's my current list:

Land//19
7x Forest
2x Plains
3x Savannah
1x Taiga
4x Windswept Heath
2x Serra Sanctum

Creatures//4
4x Argothian Enchantress

Other Spells//37
3x Chrome Mox
1x Karmic Justice
2x Exploration
1x Mirri's Guile
2x Replenish
3x Solitary Confinement
1x Blood Moon
1x Aura of Silence
4x Elephant Grass
2x Ground Seal
1x Sacred Mesa/Sigil
4x Sterling Grove
4x Utopia Sprawl
2x Wild Growth
1x Words of War
1x Oblivion Ring
4x Enchantress's Presence

Sideboard//15
3x Oblivion Ring
3x Runed Halo
1x Ground Seal
2x Humility
2x Karmic Justice
2x Blood Moon
1x Sacred Ground
1x Seal of Primordium

Well, there it is. I have some questions. Should Runed Halos be maindecked? Should I maindeck O-Rings? And most importantly, is the red splash worth arguably the best win con. and the best disruption enchantment? Thanks for the help, trying to pick up a new deck...an exceptionally difficult one to play too.

[GreenOne]

Every deck in legacy has a fundamental turn between 1 and 4, so that doesn't say much.

Every deck has also a good number of internal sinergies (unless it's chaserare.deck) such as Ravager+Artifacts, Enchantress+Enchantments, Landstill+Manlands, LD+Daze, the entire goblin deck, etc. So that doesn't say much either.

Anyway, combo decks are usually playing protection, more than disruption. They're going to masturbate with the synergies their deck have, so they try to protect their gameplan using discard, countermagic or bounce or chant. Enchantress is not trying to do that. You're unlikely to search interaction with your opponent unless your opponent does it.

On the other hand, control decks are finding answers to opponent's threats, such as Oblivion Rings, Moats, Halos, etc. This is exactly what enchantress is doing, trying to stay alive while your card advantage engine starts to work.

At least, this is how it works against aggro decks.
Against control decks you're not the control deck, so you want to drop bomb after bomb, hoping your opponent isn't answering them all.

So, basically here's your role in the matchups:

Aggro: you're the control deck. Play an enchantress, slow them down and control the board. Win at pleasure.
Aggrocontrol: you're the control deck. Control the board until you can bury them with your card advantage.
Combo: you're the control deck. Play your control cards as soon as you can.
Control: you're the beatdown. Play as many bombs as you can, and hope some doesn't get answered.

These are the reasons why I believe Enchantress is a control deck. In fact its gameplan is quite similar to some other control decks:

(A)answer opponent's threats and
(B)bury the opponent with your card advantage

Enchantress:
(A) O.Ring, Halo, Moat,... (B) Enchantresses, Replenish
Landstill:
(A) Fow,Stp, EE, Wrath, Deed... (B) Standstill...
ITF:
(A) Fow, Deed, EE... (B) Loam, CB
MUC:
(A) Counters, Shackles... (B) FoF...
Rock:
(A) Deed, Removal... (B) Witness, Gift, Loam, Genesis, whatever

This is what i believe is the pure aggro plan:
(A) Play threats
(B) mmh...profit?

Aggrocontrol Tempo:
(A) Play threats
(B) keep him off balance long enough to win with some disruption (LD, Cheap countermagic, discard)

Combo:
(A) if the opponent has some way to deal with your plan then use your protection cards to get rid of those pesky cards. Otherwise go directly to B
(B) Play your combo and win.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

control, very simple here, you play cards that will control the game and force the game to go in to what is called late game because you play slower more explosive cards to shut down their opponent to finish them off later.

Enchantress never intentionally goes into the late game.


Every deck has also a good number of internal sinergies (unless it's chaserare.deck) such as Ravager+Artifacts, Enchantress+Enchantments, Landstill+Manlands, LD+Daze, the entire goblin deck, etc. So that doesn't say much either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loki%27s_wager

Not every deck is equally interactive.

Decks like TES, Ichorid, and Enchantress all rely on internal synergy to a point that exceeds most other decks.


Anyway, combo decks are usually playing protection, more than disruption. They're going to masturbate with the synergies their deck have, so they try to protect their gameplan using discard, countermagic or bounce or chant. Enchantress is not trying to do that. You're unlikely to search interaction with your opponent unless your opponent does it.

I really don't understand what you're trying to say.

That's exactly what Enchantress does. It can't reliably race based just on its win condition, so it uses cards like Elephant Grass and Solitary Confinement to protect itself until it can.


On the other hand, control decks are finding answers to opponent's threats, such as Oblivion Rings, Moats, Halos, etc. This is exactly what enchantress is doing, trying to stay alive while your card advantage engine starts to work.

You're contradicting yourself.

You're not trying to protect your gameplan, but you are trying to stay alive while your engine works?


Aggro: you're the control deck. Play an enchantress, slow them down and control the board. Win at pleasure.

This misrepresents the nature of the match-up.

Against aggro, the pressure is on the aggro player to outrace a Confinement.

You are the beatdown.


Aggrocontrol: you're the control deck. Control the board until you can bury them with your card advantage.

No, you're the beat-down, again. You're trying to get card advantage on the board immediately, then trying to buy enough time for Confinement as a second priority.


Combo: you're the control deck. Play your control cards as soon as you can.

This is the only match where Enchantress is forced to truly play control, which is why Enchantress has a rough time against combo. When you're forced to interact with the opponent, the deck has difficulty. That doesn't sound much like control.


Control: you're the beatdown. Play as many bombs as you can, and hope some doesn't get answered.

That's actually your strategy against every deck that isn't combo.


Enchantress:
(A) O.Ring, Halo, Moat,... (B) Enchantresses, Replenish
Landstill:
(A) Fow,Stp, EE, Wrath, Deed... (B) Standstill...
ITF:
(A) Fow, Deed, EE... (B) Loam, CB
MUC:
(A) Counters, Shackles... (B) FoF...
Rock:
(A) Deed, Removal... (B) Witness, Gift, Loam, Genesis, whatever

Except that in Enchantress, you're talking about 6-8 cards as answer cards. In Landstill, for instance, you're talking about 20+ cards.


(A) if the opponent has some way to deal with your plan then use your protection cards to get rid of those pesky cards. Otherwise go directly to B
(B) Play your combo and win.

Like;

A)If your opponent can stop you from winning (ie, by killing you), then stop him (ie, with Confinement).
B)Otherwise, play Enchantresses and win.



You CAN turn Enchantress into Parfait if you want, by running excess protection cards like Moat, Halo, and O. Ring. But frankly, that's a sub-par and outdated version of the deck.

[Obfuscate Freely]

Anyway, combo decks are usually playing protection, more than disruption. They're going to masturbate with the synergies their deck have, so they try to protect their gameplan using discard, countermagic or bounce or chant. Enchantress is not trying to do that. You're unlikely to search interaction with your opponent unless your opponent does it.
This describes Enchantress perfectly. You do not want to interact with your opponent any more than he or she forces you to, since the gameplan of "resolve Enchantresses, Confinement, and Words" will end the game quickly and efficiently, if left undisrupted.


On the other hand, control decks are finding answers to opponent's threats, such as Oblivion Rings, Moats, Halos, etc. This is exactly what enchantress is doing, trying to stay alive while your card advantage engine starts to work.

At least, this is how it works against aggro decks.
This is wrong. Enchantress does not function well as a reactive deck, searching for answers to the opponent's threats after they are presented. This is also unnecessary, because of Solitary Confinement.

When Enchantress is facing an aggro deck, Solitary Confinement is its win condition. Think about that for a minute. Once you play a Confinement with enough Enchantress effects in play, you have presented the opponent with a game-winning threat. It shuts them down in such a comprehensive way as to lose them the game if it stays in play, usually in just a few turns (until you can deal 20 damage with Words of War).

Now, it is true that Enchantress employs other tools to slow down aggro decks, in order to buy time for Confinement to come online. However, this does not make Enchantress a control deck, because the deck's core strategy is still proactive and non-interactive.


Aggrocontrol: you're the control deck. Control the board until you can bury them with your card advantage.
Trying to control the board against a Threshold-like deck is folly. You end up prioritizing weak cards like Runed Halo and Elephant Grass when you should be focusing on Enchantress effects and other proactive threats, such as Blood Moon, Choke, and Replenish. These are the cards that win you the game.

Enchantress can actually win the game (with Words of War, I mean) quicker than Threshold can usually deal lethal damage, so why would you try to assume a controlling role?

Try to look at it from the perspective of the Threshold player. They won't care much about Oblivion Rings and Runed Halos if you aren't drawing cards from them. This is because they have to assume the role of control.


These are the reasons why I believe Enchantress is a control deck. In fact its gameplan is quite similar to some other control decks:

(A)answer opponent's threats and
(B)bury the opponent with your card advantage
You have these in the wrong order. The number one goal of an Enchantress player is to resolve Enchantresses and draw cards from them. Answering the opponent's threats is ancillary, and unnecessary if you can win the game faster than your opponent. Against creature-based aggro decks, landing Confinement is how you win the game.


Combo:
(A) if the opponent has some way to deal with your plan then use your protection cards to get rid of those pesky cards. Otherwise go directly to B
(B) Play your combo and win.
One way that other decks try to deal with combo decks is to race them. As a combo deck, how do you "protect" your combo from the clock of a faster deck?

You use stall cards. Solidarity had Remand. Heartbeat had Moment's Peace. Enchantress has Elephant Grass. These cards can be considered control elements, but they do not change the fundamental strategies of the decks that incorporate them.

[GreenOne]

The decks you listed as combo decks (Solidarity, heartbeat) are actually control-combo decks IMO, Mixing CA machines, gaining tempo n the opponent and having a quite fast combo finish.

By the way, you have your points. But I'm still playing enchantress as sort of control deck, and having nice results with it.

Actually, against threshold I usually play an enchantress before playing a Moat, just because I know the opponent will counter the enchantress and then will not have a counter for the moat. What a combo win! It remembers me of Landstill combo: Humility+Opponent's creatures.

I'm actually one of the people playing the deck with a good number of control cards: 4 Grass, 2 O.Ring, 2 Confinament, 1 Moat, 2 Ground Seal, 2 Runed halo.



This misrepresents the nature of the match-up.

Against aggro, the pressure is on the aggro player to outrace a Confinement.

You are the beatdown.

So I guess in the Landstill vs Goblins matchup, Landstill is the beatdown deck, cause Goblins is trying to outrace the Wrath+Humility combo instead of the Enchantress+Confinament one. (WTF?)

Obviously, every deck wants to execute its game plan. This doesn't mean being the beatdown. The beatdown is the deck that's trying to be the aggressor and continually pose threats to the opponent, and trying to win before the opponent executed its gameplan.

From Threat Theory (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/fundamentals/7865_Threat_Theory_Answer_Theory.html):
the active deck tries to repeatedly"push" the control deck, busting it to the point where it runs out of answers. At that point, the active deck operates like a crack in a dike, and that is bad news for the control deck. On the other hand, if the control deck is operating correctly, answering threats (Grass, Ring, Halo) and drawing cards (Enchantress), it can surround itself with a defensive fortress, shore up a couple of turns, and then take (yes) control of the game (Confinament).

In the aggrocontrol matchup Runed Halo slows them down a lot, cause they're usually playing 8 threats, and 4 of them (with at least one usually being already in play) instantly are becoming uneffective. In that way you gain more time to draw your card advantage engine and take control of the board. Then you win when it pleases you, like another control deck would do with Decree once it landed Humility.

However, this discussion has already taken too much space. People with some kind of practice with the deck will hopefully know how to play it. Let's move on.
(@Obfuscate Freely, your first quote by me is not by me. :wink: )

[Gibbie_X]

Alright, I think we have exhausted ripping each other apart on either the use of Sigil or what the definition of Enchantress is. Now lets help the new guy...



Well, there it is. I have some questions. Should Runed Halos be maindecked? Should I maindeck O-Rings? And most importantly, is the red splash worth arguably the best win con. and the best disruption enchantment? Thanks for the help, trying to pick up a new deck...an exceptionally difficult one to play too.

You deck looks pretty standard. Personally, I don't think the Mox are necessary. I don't think Enchantress needs that sort of acceleration, and you may remove a key piece, and this deck is all about the right piece. Runed Halo, as discussed in previous posts, is more of a SB card. The double white isn't hard to achieve, but can be cumbersome at an early stage when the Halo is most most against Combo. Oblivion Ring is a must, even maybe multiples. It's too good, takes care of too many problems.

Now for the last bits. The Red in your deck is a preference to how you want to win, slowly and surely, or in one hit. I don't think Words is the best win-con, but that is my opinion, and I could be wrong....

Blood Moon is your best disruption, so I wouldn't loss it.

[landstill101]

This describes Enchantress perfectly. You do not want to interact with your opponent any more than he or she forces you to, since the gameplan of "resolve Enchantresses, Confinement, and Words" will end the game quickly and efficiently, if left undisrupted.


This is wrong. Enchantress does not function well as a reactive deck, searching for answers to the opponent's threats after they are presented. This is also unnecessary, because of Solitary Confinement.

When Enchantress is facing an aggro deck, Solitary Confinement is its win condition. Think about that for a minute. Once you play a Confinement with enough Enchantress effects in play, you have presented the opponent with a game-winning threat. It shuts them down in such a comprehensive way as to lose them the game if it stays in play, usually in just a few turns (until you can deal 20 damage with Words of War).

Now, it is true that Enchantress employs other tools to slow down aggro decks, in order to buy time for Confinement to come online. However, this does not make Enchantress a control deck, because the deck's core strategy is still proactive and non-interactive.


Trying to control the board against a Threshold-like deck is folly. You end up prioritizing weak cards like Runed Halo and Elephant Grass when you should be focusing on Enchantress effects and other proactive threats, such as Blood Moon, Choke, and Replenish. These are the cards that win you the game.

Enchantress can actually win the game (with Words of War, I mean) quicker than Threshold can usually deal lethal damage, so why would you try to assume a controlling role?

Try to look at it from the perspective of the Threshold player. They won't care much about Oblivion Rings and Runed Halos if you aren't drawing cards from them. This is because they have to assume the role of control.


You have these in the wrong order. The number one goal of an Enchantress player is to resolve Enchantresses and draw cards from them. Answering the opponent's threats is ancillary, and unnecessary if you can win the game faster than your opponent. Against creature-based aggro decks, landing Confinement is how you win the game.


One way that other decks try to deal with combo decks is to race them. As a combo deck, how do you "protect" your combo from the clock of a faster deck?

You use stall cards. Solidarity had Remand. Heartbeat had Moment's Peace. Enchantress has Elephant Grass. These cards can be considered control elements, but they do not change the fundamental strategies of the decks that incorporate them.


Before we finally end this wasted time of space, which version of enchantress are you talking about, the version that runs things like moxes and guides to play things faster or the version that plays things like elephant grass and such to slow down the opponent until you have enough mana/draw effects to play things??? because the version with moxes I could consider it a combo because it is build to play faster and try to force things through to win while the other version is a control deck that wants to control the opponents board before winning. In all of your explaining, you never explain what cards and strats make this a combo, you just put up your definition of a combo deck(which you don't have the power to define what it is, your just 1 person) and dont actually explain how in the deck its a combo. This deck is simply a control deck, it CONTROLS your opponents board through halo, confinment, o ring, moat, grass, ground seal, city of solitude..etc then once you are in control, you play wow or mesa to finish them off.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Before we finally end this wasted time of space, which version of enchantress are you talking about, the version that runs things like moxes and guides to play things faster or the version that plays things like elephant grass and such to slow down the opponent until you have enough mana/draw effects to play things??? because the version with moxes I could consider it a combo because it is build to play faster and try to force things through to win while the other version is a control deck that wants to control the opponents board before winning. In all of your explaining, you never explain what cards and strats make this a combo, you just put up your definition of a combo deck(which you don't have the power to define what it is, your just 1 person) and dont actually explain how in the deck its a combo. This deck is simply a control deck, it CONTROLS your opponents board through halo, confinment, o ring, moat, grass, ground seal, city of solitude..etc then once you are in control, you play wow or mesa to finish them off.

A) All versions play Elephant Grass.

B) Do you really need to be told which parts of the deck are the core combo? Enchantresses + Enchantments + Confinement/WoWar.

Happy?

C) You don't control the board through cards like Halo, Confinement, or Oblivion Ring.

Those cards are in the deck because, and only because, there are only 8 playable Enchantress effects.

If they printed another playable Enchantress in the next set, the deck would lose the chaff like Library, Moat, Halo, etc, and go to just Confinements and Grasses.

Your primary strategy against every deck that isn't combo is to get an Enchantress out and start drawing cards. The deck is almost completely non-interactive. That's why it's called Solitaire, FFS.

[landstill101]

Hey guys, I'm new to the Enchantress Archetype. I always dismissed as a kind of mediocre deck that loses instantly to a resolved Deed. Well, I tested the deck out and not only am I wrong about the Deed, but its really an awesome deck that pulls wins out of its ass. Here's my current list:

Land//19
7x Forest
2x Plains
3x Savannah
1x Taiga
4x Windswept Heath
2x Serra Sanctum

Creatures//4
4x Argothian Enchantress

Other Spells//37
3x Chrome Mox
1x Karmic Justice
2x Exploration
1x Mirri's Guile
2x Replenish
3x Solitary Confinement
1x Blood Moon
1x Aura of Silence
4x Elephant Grass
2x Ground Seal
1x Sacred Mesa/Sigil
4x Sterling Grove
4x Utopia Sprawl
2x Wild Growth
1x Words of War
1x Oblivion Ring
4x Enchantress's Presence

Sideboard//15
3x Oblivion Ring
3x Runed Halo
1x Ground Seal
2x Humility
2x Karmic Justice
2x Blood Moon
1x Sacred Ground
1x Seal of Primordium

Well, there it is. I have some questions. Should Runed Halos be maindecked? Should I maindeck O-Rings? And most importantly, is the red splash worth arguably the best win con. and the best disruption enchantment? Thanks for the help, trying to pick up a new deck...an exceptionally difficult one to play too.

Now on to things that will actually help people... about the list, like mentioned before I'm not a big fan of the moxes, the deck doesn't need the speed at all, I feel the removal of the card for the mana is worse than having the mana a turn early. Also, I'm not sure why you have only 1 guile, if your going to play that card, you need atleast 3-4 because the card is worthless late game because you should be drawing more than 3 cards a turn with effects, and its only good early game and the possibility of drawing it in opening hand or horrid.

To your questions, yes runed halo should be main board, I have 3 right now I think main board. I've not been a huge Fan of O-ring, I think some things are better in its place, but that one is more a preference choice. And on the splash of red OF COURSE its worth it.

[landstill101]

A) All versions play Elephant Grass.

B) Do you really need to be told which parts of the deck are the core combo? Enchantresses + Enchantments + Confinement/WoWar.

Happy?

Ok by this thinking, in landstill a standstill and a manland makes the deck a combo. In threshold, countertop makes it a combo,


C) You don't control the board through cards like Halo, Confinement, or Oblivion Ring.

Wow I really can't believe you actually believe this, I'm hoping everyone that is reading this realizes how wrong this statement is, and since I can't attack a person, i'll just completely bash your quote.

Lets see where to start..... Halo, the card reads:As Runed Halo comes into play, name a card.
You have protection from the chosen name.

Ok looking at the exact oracle of the card, you name a card and you are protected from it, ok lets through some examples to make it easier.. my opponent is attacking me with a goyf, I play a halo naming goyf and wow I just controlled the board by giving my self protection from something that is killing me.

Here is the definition of control in the dictionary to make it even easier to see

1. to exercise restraint or direction over; dominate; command.
2. to hold in check; curb: to control a horse; to control one's emotions.

wow runed halo retrains/ holds in check that creature from damaging you IT CONTROLS THE BOARD.

confinment,.... I can do this one but it would just be repeating how to control things from runed halo.

On to oblivion ring. here is the oracle text
When Oblivion Ring comes into play, remove another target nonland permanent from the game.
When Oblivion Ring leaves play, return the removed card to play under its owner's control.

it removes something from the board. This card DOMINATES THE OTHER CARD which removes it and helps CONTROL the board.



Those cards are in the deck because, and only because, there are only 8 playable Enchantress effects.

If they printed another playable Enchantress in the next set, the deck would lose the chaff like Library, Moat, Halo, etc, and go to just Confinements and Grasses.

Actually it won't(talking about only playing confinement and grasses) because there would be no control of the board and any deck with disruption or control would easily stop you in your attempt to win. Because this deck isn't combo, soo it would easily lose without control cards.


Your primary strategy against every deck that isn't combo is to get an Enchantress out and start drawing cards. The deck is almost completely non-interactive. That's why it's called Solitaire, FFS.

Soo because the main strat is to get enchantress to draw cards, threshold is a combo deck because it main thing is to play creatures to win, or for grow decks to play creatures fast or dragon stompy to get a moon effect down???? is that how you're putting it, because that is how it is explained.

Soo playing an elephant grass first turn instead of a wild growth against goblins isn't interactive?? or searching for a runed halo to name on goyf isn't reactive?? or playing mesa early to make blockers isn't reactive?? or playing city of solitude down before enchantress isn't interactive??? I could go on for a long time on this supposed to be non-interactive deck.

This deck is control........ period.....

[GreenOne]

If they printed another playable Enchantress in the next set
*MASTURBATES FURIOUSLY*


Should Runed Halos be maindecked? Should I maindeck O-Rings? And most importantly, is the red splash worth arguably the best win con. and the best disruption enchantment? Thanks for the help, trying to pick up a new deck...an exceptionally difficult one to play too.
Oblivion ring is a catch all answer, and more versatile than Runed Halo, also easier on the manabase. Run Halo if your meta has a lot of decks with a limited number of winconditions.

The red splash is worth the card. WoW is THE finisher for this deck.

Things I don't like about your deck:
- Number of unbasics: the Savannah number can be reduced to 2. This deck loses to a wasteland on an enchanted land more than any other. You also run a lot of moon effects postboard.
- Aura of silence: I don't get this maindeck. A single copy is not going to reduce the speed of your Deed-playing opponent. O.Ring is an overall better solution, at least maindeck
- Exploration + Mox: Run one or he other. Mox wants a land light manabase (only 19 lands, where I play 21), where exploration wants you to run many lands.
- 3 solitary confinament: it sucks if you don't have a couple of enchantresses out. Once you have them, you probably have already got through your deck to find one of the 2 copies. So 2 copies are enough, at least until they print another enchantress effect (*masturbates furiously again*).
- 2 Replenish: it's the most powerful card in the deck with the enchantresses. I play 3 maindeck, but you can go with 2. But you need another copy in the SB.
- Moat: it costs a lot, but agaist some decks it spells GG preside.
- Humility sucks in the board. It hoses half of your draw engine and you still have to deal with creatures in the long run.

[hi-val]

Runed Halo is unreal. It's a white Duress. I highly endorse them!

More and more, I want Karmic Justice in my maindeck (I know, it should be there already) because I fear things like EE for 2 or someone busting out of my Chokes. To the people that run them, do you get them to fire off when you use it? Do you actually tutor for one or hope to draw into it? Do you side in multiples, and if so, against what decks?

GreenOne, I hope I'm reading you wrong when I think you're saying that you draw cards from Enchantresses when you cast Replenish...

[GreenOne]

Runed Halo is unreal. It's a white Duress. I highly endorse them!

Yeah, it's good if there's lot of aggrocontrol in your meta. It's not great against aggro cause they have too many winconditions (think about goblins, elves or merfolks), and it sucks against control, unless they're playing edicts/discard/intuition.
It rocks against Tendrils, Goyf, Tombstalker and Dreadnough though.
The reason why I'm playing few is because of the double white. I'm playing little duals and WW is not as easy as it seems.


More and more, I want Karmic Justice in my maindeck (I know, it should be there already) because I fear things like EE for 2 or someone busting out of my Chokes. To the people that run them, do you get them to fire off when you use it? Do you actually tutor for one or hope to draw into it? Do you side in multiples, and if so, against what decks?

I'm playing 1 maindeck and 2 SB. They're good against anything with LD or board sweepers (EE, Deed). The "vindicate" effect is actually quite good even against Krosan grip/Trygon Predator, but most of the time against those you don't need all the 3.


GreenOne, I hope I'm reading you wrong when I think you're saying that you draw cards from Enchantresses when you cast Replenish...
Yeah, what I meant is that Replenish is the most busted card, like enchantresses are. :tongue:

[honz]

More and more, I want Karmic Justice in my maindeck (I know, it should be there already) because I fear things like EE for 2 or someone busting out of my Chokes. To the people that run them, do you get them to fire off when you use it? Do you actually tutor for one or hope to draw into it? Do you side in multiples, and if so, against what decks?

I also run 1 maindeck, and 2 in the board. I really think that is the right amount in the right places. They come in against anything running deed, EE, armageddon, or excessive land/enchantment hate. I would not bring them in against Team America, mainly because you want chokes and halos more (and there just isn't room for everything), however i do bring in my 1x sacred ground.

Halo hasn't really impressed me enough to merit running more than 1 in the main, 2 in the side.

One thing i have been wondering about: what is the correct number of lands to be playing? I have used everywhere from 18-21, and can't seem to decide. At the moment i am playing with 19 lands, 3 ESG and 6 auras, much to my liking. Any thoughts?

[hi-val]

Halo is much different with 4 copies compared to one copy. It's like how Disrupt is underwhelming unless you run 4, and then it's stellar. Halo is like WW: Counter that spell and every other copy they draw. It counters Intuition, Gifts and Thoughtseize too. I'd be happy dropping it against basically any creature on the board, since it also gives them dead draws. Two Halos on the board naming a 4-of means they've got at least 6 dead cards in their deck! But I can certainly see other cards in its spot; the WW requirement is hard to get.


Do you find that you tutor for your Karmic Justice?

[GreenOne]

One thing i have been wondering about: what is the correct number of lands to be playing? I have used everywhere from 18-21, and can't seem to decide. At the moment i am playing with 19 lands, 3 ESG and 6 auras, much to my liking. Any thoughts?
Here's my manabase:
// Lands
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [B] Savannah
2 [US] Serra's Sanctum
1 [A] Taiga
3 [MM] Plains (1)
10 [ON] Forest (1)

4 [DIS] Utopia Sprawl
4 [IA] Wild Growth

21 lands + 8 Auras + 0 Exploration/Gea's touch.

I do believe lands are quite important for the deck, cause you want to hit your first, second and third drop consistently, that's why I run 21.
This lets me worry less about Stifles and wastelands (also given the low number of unbasics in my build.
The manabase is quite solid, and the only thing I'm missing is sometimes the WW.

I don't run any Moxes / ESG, cause i prefer having more lands and more auras instead. A higher number of enchantments in the deck means more profit from a landed enchantress. More lands means more land drops against control/LD. However this comes at a cost. I'm slower at putting into play argothians (same speed with Presences) and lose some speed mid-combo (chrome mox acts like a 1-time Exploration effect mid combo).

[Gibbie_X]

To me, only one Karmic Justice is necessary. If you draw it early, it hoses quite a few decks. Late game, it is still beastly. Replenish is a 2 of, I think, hadn't even thought of putting one in the board, I have better tech! Lands, I think the less the better, even with 2 Exploration. I don't even run Taiga. The utopia Sprawls can muster the :r: even you watch and conserve one. Still, if you have Blood Moon main, what would be the point of a Taiga.

Here's a question, what do you have for the mirror?





If they printed another playable Enchantress in the next set, the deck would lose the chaff like Library, Moat, Halo, etc, and go to just Confinements and Grasses.


*MASTURBATES FURIOUSLY*



This Thread has received more money shots than any other. Shouldn't The Source award it with something for that?


So none of you would tap Femeref Enchantress?

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

I would.

The mirror comes down to

#1 - Who draws Sanctum first. If you both draw Sanctum, who, if anyone, is playing a second, and who draws the second one first.

#2 - Who gets an Aura of Silence down first.


My mana base is similiar to Honz's. 19 lands, 3 ESG, 5 auras, plus 2 Exploration and 2 Gaea's Touch.



hi-val - What is your mana base like, to support 4 Halos?

[GreenOne]

The mirror comes down to

#1 - Who draws Sanctum first. If you both draw Sanctum, who, if anyone, is playing a second, and who draws the second one first.

#2 - Who gets an Aura of Silence down first.

Also, many times the mirror is just about having a sustainable Confinament+ 2xSterling Grove and more cards in your library than your opponent. Most of those games will end in a draw due to time btw.

[honz]

@greenone: i think running 0 exploration is a big mistake. I tried the 8 aura package for a while, but it is just too much. Taking out exploration really slows down the time between dropping that first enchantress and locking up the board. I found myself constantly in situations where auras were useless, and an exploration would be much more productive. I think 2 is the right number.

@Spatula: Does Gaea's touch really work that well for you? It only seemed to shine for me when i was already winning. Most the time i would rather see an aura, or exploration.

I think the mirror comes down to halo (naming WoW), with a grove lock. Aura is pretty key too, but does anyone honestly play alot of enchantress mirror?

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Also, many times the mirror is just about having a sustainable Confinament+ 2xSterling Grove and more cards in your library than your opponent. Most of those games will end in a draw due to time btw.

That's what happens if neither player gets the upper hand early with either Aura or Sanctum.


Also, if you're running WoWind or WoWilding, you win the mirror in that situation.



@Spatula: Does Gaea's touch really work that well for you? It only seemed to shine for me when i was already winning. Most the time i would rather see an aura, or exploration.


It accelerates your mid-game a lot. You can net mana off of it, and it lets you do some crazy stuff with Replenish.

[Jaiminho]

EDIT: Turns out I was completely wrong.

[landstill101]

I think your right... Here is the oracle text of the card

: The next time you would draw a card this turn, Words of War deals 2 damage to target creature or player instead.


Because of the comma after turn, you can pay the mana before you draw and you don't have to target till you actually draw, and because you already payed the ability and won't draw, the ability will just fizzle if you can't target.

[landstill101]

Gaea's touch is not worth the spots in the deck for the main reason, you can't play it till turn 2 and at that turn you should be playing an enchantress effect. and with exploration only costing 1, that alone makes the 2 mana for saccing not worth it.

[GreenOne]

Gaea's touch is not worth the spots in the deck for the main reason, you can't play it till turn 2 and at that turn you should be playing an enchantress effect. and with exploration only costing 1, that alone makes the 2 mana for saccing not worth it.
I don't know. You'd want to play exploration after the enchantress anyway, unless your hand contains 3+ lands (and enchantress, and exploration), so I guess it comes out rarely that situation.

[Gibbie_X]

Oh come on now, you guys have got to have a better solution than a Grove/Aura/Confinement Lock. Granted, Aura of Silence is too key here. But I meant in the SB. I have one card that is broken for the mirror. It's not all that secret, but I'm sure it has been forgotten.

As for spare replenish, have you guys considered running Second Sunrise against the sorcery board sweepers? How funny would that be, they Wish for Tranquility or that free one, wipe your board, and you cast that and laugh, laugh, laugh. It works with EE as well as Deed, since EE will come back as 0 and they are most likely out of mana if you return the Deed. Works great for Geddons and Devastating Dreams.


I don't know. You'd want to play exploration after the enchantress anyway, unless your hand contains 3+ lands (and enchantress, and exploration), so I guess it comes out rarely that situation.

I have had that happen quite a few times. That's as good as 2 lands, Sprawl and Enchantress. Unless ofcourse they counter the Exploration, which I have had happen as well. It can be a good way to throw your opponent off, make them think you are playing Land Stompy of something. A little Misdirection never hurt no one, unless it's a kicked Urza's Rage.

[Jaiminho]

Oh come on now, you guys have got to have a better solution than a Grove/Aura/Confinement Lock. Granted, Aura of Silence is too key here. But I meant in the SB. I have one card that is broken for the mirror. It's not all that secret, but I'm sure it has been forgotten.

As for spare replenish, have you guys considered running Second Sunrise against the sorcery board sweepers? How funny would that be, they Wish for Tranquility or that free one, wipe your board, and you cast that and laugh, laugh, laugh. It works with EE as well as Deed, since EE will come back as 0 and they are most likely out of mana if you return the Deed. Works great for Geddons and Devastating Dreams.

Wouldn't be good with Deed and you'd have to keep 1WW open at all times so you can cast it. Not advancing into your game plan makes it pretty bad. It's no replacement for Replenish, since the latter brings back Groves, Grasses, Seals and Confinements you sacrificed previously, which is a key function of the card.

[Jak]

Gaea's touch is not worth the spots in the deck for the main reason, you can't play it till turn 2 and at that turn you should be playing an enchantress effect. and with exploration only costing 1, that alone makes the 2 mana for saccing not worth it.

Dude, what are you talking about? This thing can accelerate you into turn 2 Presences just as well as Exploration, except this you can play on turn 2 and still play the Enchantress.

Play it, play an additional Forest, sac, play Presence. How is that bad?

[Dr.AgOn]

Dude, what are you talking about? This thing can accelerate you into turn 2 Presences just as well as Exploration, except this you can play on turn 2 and still play the Enchantress.

Play it, play an additional Forest, sac, play Presence. How is that bad?

true, turn 2 presence is possible with touch, but it's not any better than with exploration. in fact, it's worse, because you have to sac it. with exploration in hand, you can play exploration on turn 1, an additional land and drop the presence on turn two. The only difference: you have 2 enchantments in play except just 1.

This scenario isn't very important anyway. I try to play as few enchantments as possible while having no enchantress in play. A turn 1 exploration is only valuable if you have a presence in hand. Same with touch on turn two. I just love Exploration, cause it rocks in the mid to late-game!! I played with 2 touch and 1 exploration lots and even with nine basic forests, I couldn't use the drop an additional land effect as often as I wanted to. It was just a cantrip. True, Exploration is nothing more, but it gives you a cantrip EVERY TURN. The replenish / touch interaction is quite nice though... I really can't decide. I think I'll play with 2 exploration / 1 touch.

[Jak]

Obviously Touch isn't as great played turn 2 than when you are comboing out, but it can still get an enchantress into play just as fast as Exploration. Getting your engine down is the number one priority and Touch helps with this while being amazing as you draw and play your whole deck.

If you run Touch you should play Exploration also.

[grahf]

I have one card that is broken for the mirror. It's not all that secret, but I'm sure it has been forgotten.

Don't mean to spoil your tech, but would you be referring to Cleansing Meditation? The only other one sided Tranquility I can think of is Primeval Light... which I just realized is targeted, so it would be useless against Confinement.

[GreenOne]

Don't mean to spoil your tech, but would you be referring to Cleansing Meditation? The only other one sided Tranquility I can think of is Primeval Light... which I just realized is targeted, so it would be useless against Confinement.
I only hope it's not Helix Pinnacle. However, I never played the mirror in a tournament match, and I don't think will happen soon, so let's just talk about something else.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

(Also, Calming Verse)

[TripleAgent]

I'm behind, what is the "stock" list looking like nowadays?

[GreenOne]

I'm behind, what is the "stock" list looking like nowadays?
What does "stock" list means (English is not my mother language)?

If it means a standard deckslist then you can look here (http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?type=Enchantress&format=Legacy)for some examples.

If it means what is the "core" of the deck it's something like:

4 Windswept heath
1 Savannah
1 Taiga
2 Serra Sanctum
11-12 other lands between Savannahs, Forests and Plains

4 Argothians
4 Presence
3-4 Sterling Grove
3+ Elephant Grass
1+ Ground Seal
2 or 3 Solitary confinament
1 Words of War
0-1 Sacred Mesa
4 Utopia Sprawl
0-4 Wild Growth
0-4 Exploration /Gea's touch
1 Karmic Justice
2-3 Replenish
Some number of Oblivion Rings, Moat, Runed Halo...

[TripleAgent]

What does "stock" list means (English is not my mother language)?

If it means a standard deckslist then you can look here (http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?type=Enchantress&format=Legacy)for some examples.

If it means what is the "core" of the deck it's something like:

4 Windswept heath
1 Savannah
1 Taiga
2 Serra Sanctum
11-12 other lands between Savannahs, Forests and Plains

4 Argothians
4 Presence
3-4 Sterling Grove
3+ Elephant Grass
1+ Ground Seal
2 or 3 Solitary confinament
1 Words of War
0-1 Sacred Mesa
4 Utopia Sprawl
0-4 Wild Growth
0-4 Exploration /Gea's touch
1 Karmic Justice
2-3 Replenish
Some number of Oblivion Rings, Moat, Runed Halo...


Yes, I meant standard. I know Spatula runs some different things like ESG, I may return to play Legacy, and my favorite (Solidarity :-( ) isn't viable, so I'll go to my 2nd fave, Enchantress. Trying to catch up on the format. Thanks.

[Jaiminho]

Yes, I meant standard. I know Spatula runs some different things like ESG, I may return to play Legacy, and my favorite (Solidarity :-( ) isn't viable, so I'll go to my 2nd fave, Enchantress. Trying to catch up on the format. Thanks.

GreenOne omitted the non-enchantment acceleration of the deck, which is usually 3 copies of one of ESG and Chrome Mox. I've played both (not simultaneously) and prefer and am currently playing Mox. There's been plenty of discussion about it in this thread.

Also, Solidarity is viable.

[GreenOne]

GreenOne omitted the non-enchantment acceleration of the deck, which is usually 3 copies of one of ESG and Chrome Mox. I've played both (not simultaneously) and prefer and am currently playing Mox. There's been plenty of discussion about it in this thread.

He asked for a standard list, and standard lists are not packing Mox neither ESG.
Of the last 10 Enchantress decks in the DeckCheck (http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?type=Enchantress&format=Legacy) database, there was one deck with 3 moxes, and 0 ESG.


Also, Solidarity is viable.
Seconded.

[Seriously]

how often does that lone tiaga get wasted ? in effect shutting down WoW until a utopia sprawl is found.

Capitalization. Start using it. If you don't, Bad Things will happen. - Nihil Credo

[honz]

You never play that taiga until you are already winning. You may randomly draw one, and chances are it will be wasted (since it is one of your few non-basics). I would not keep a 1-land hand if that 1 land is a non-basic. You should remember that you never really play WoW until you already have a couple enchantress, and some type of board control (moat, solitary).

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Also, it usually doesn't matter. You have 4 Sprawls in addition to Taiga and Replenish if you're desperate. The odds of you being cut off because of the mana requirements are pretty low.

[Jaiminho]

He asked for a standard list, and standard lists are not packing Mox neither ESG.
Of the last 10 Enchantress decks in the DeckCheck (http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?type=Enchantress&format=Legacy) database, there was one deck with 3 moxes, and 0 ESG.

I'm stupid, sorry. I never check DeckCheck and went on the lists and thoughts posted by people here.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

This is the minimal core;

1 Serra's Sanctum
1 Taiga
2 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath/Wooded Foothills
11 Forests/plains/savannahs/fetches/Sanctums

4x Argothian
4x Presence
4x Utopia Sprawl
3x Sterling Grove
2x Elephant Grass
2x Solitary Confinement
2x Replenish
1x WoWar/Wind

The rest is relatively in the air. Most people run at least 2 Explorations, and 3-4 Elephant Grasses. I recommend 4 Ground Seals. I also wouldn't recommend going above 22 lands at the very highest.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

PM, yeah?

[Nightmare]

PM, yeah?

That would be the right way to handle it, yes.

[Gibbie_X]

Alright, so the base is set, minus a tweak or two depending on personal preference. How about a base for the side board...

My suggestion and break-down....

Choke - 1 or 2: Solidarity and any CounterTop or Threshold deck is going to make sure this doesn't hit.

City of Solitude - 1 or 2: Stops counter magic and Top, but won't stop Counterbalance. (you know, if you leave out the O, makes more sense almost, seeing those are the only ones using it...) Leaves your Groves a little exposed, but hopefully for a short while.

Sacred Ground - 1 or 2: Losing land is not cool for Enchantress. We really have no way of getting dead lands back. Where Karmic Justice leaves off, this one shines. Helps against the sac effects too.

Replenish - 1: This is only if you are running only 2 main deck.

Rule of Law - 1: This card is good, but can hinder you if you are not careful. But it's use against ANT, TES, Solidarity, and any other Storm decks is necessary.

Runed Halo - 1 or 2: This is a personal preference. I like the card since it can help against TES and ANT your second turn. Is also good against Grindstone, goyf, and Dreadnought.

Wheel of Sun and Moon - 1 or 2: Though it puts a damper on Replenish, it's pretty insane against Grindstone, Brainfreeze, and can help against the LD match-up as well. It is also a GREAT way to stop Dredge cold.

I think that is a solid base. A few fillers I have in mine...

Blood Moon - 1: Sick against Landstill and Thresh, even AngelStompy. Some versions run this main, but I think it's a good sneak in card. Main deck won't do jack for you against Goblins, Dragonstompy, Solidarity, or Burn.

Sphere of Law / Energy Storm - 1: In my play testing of Enchantress, burn seems to be a problem. We can protect against there fat, but when it comes to the dome, Ivory Mask and Confinement are our only protection. I have always known the burn range to be 8 or lower, meaning if you are at 8 with no protection, you are toast on the well side. Stops Pyrostatic Pillars from hurting you while still hitting your opponent. The Sphere helps protect against goblins as well, but that shouldn't be a hard match-up pre-sideboard. Energy Storm can double as help against FaeStompy as well.

Suppression Field / Pithing Needle - 1 or 2: Now I realize the synergy between Field and most of the kills for Enchantress doesn't really exist, but I don't use Words to kill, and with Sigil of the Empty Throne, no cost is required. It can also help slow Affinity. Needles on the other hand are just too good. I don't think I have to explain the variety of ways Needle gets it done. Granted they don't draw you card's, but they can help.

Spiritual Focus - 1: A sick card against Iggy and most if not all black decks. But since our main concern is not discarding Replenish, it's another reason to keep the MD count small. If you feel that is is not enough protection, I would suggest Library of Leng or Feldon's Cane, that is if you don't think Wheel will handle it...

That may leave a spot or two open, but choose wisely. Look over Decks to Beat, and match up the enchantment that hoses that deck, because there is one.

[GreenOne]

Here's my SB:
SB: 1 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
SB: 2 [OD] Karmic Justice
SB: 2 [SHM] Runed Halo
SB: 2 [WL] Aura of Silence
SB: 1 [7E] Sacred Ground
SB: 1 [DIS] Dovescape
SB: 1 [4E] Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 3 [TE] Choke
SB: 1 [SHM] Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 1 [8E] Blood Moon

I do believe 3 chokes are really good in today's blue mata, as are some number of Runed Halos.
Sacred ground is a Must against LD decks.
CoP:RED is here just for burn/sligh decks
Dovescape against Control decks

I'm not playing city of solitude. City is a card that invalidates counterspells, so the opponent has to counter it. I'd betta just play a must counter instead, something that actually affects the board, like Choke. You can run a single copy, just for the diminishing returns on too many copies of choke.

[Zach Tartell]

Discussing the sideboard of a meta-dependent deck is an exercise in futility. Enchantress is a deck that is a meta call, and, for this very reason, its composition cannot be discussed in a not-finite-playing-area manner. You can "bare-bones" out what's absolutely necessary in the main deck, but as Matt (spatula) showed us, that's like... 40 cards. That's an almost infinite amount of wiggle room.

Talking about the sideboard is fairly useless (outside of +1ery, in which I am clearly not above partaking) without at least an inkling of a meta description.

[TripleAgent]

For the record, my Solidarity comment was mostly sarcasm, don't want to get my fellow Solidarity folks too upset, lol. I really wish it was/approaching Tier 1 again, it was the deck that mad me like the format.

OT: There are some new tourneys at a shop not too far from me, and I've been asked to play again, so I figured I would dust off this deck and see if I could make it work. Unfortunately, I am out of the loop, and the meta is somewhat a mystery to me. I know Team America (whatever that is, need to read up) split for first, and my teammate top 8'ed with RGBSA, therefore, I'm starting from scratch. Thanks for all help.

[Gibbie_X]

Discussing the sideboard of a meta-dependent deck is an exercise in futility. Enchantress is a deck that is a meta call, and, for this very reason, its composition cannot be discussed in a not-finite-playing-area manner. You can "bare-bones" out what's absolutely necessary in the main deck, but as Matt (spatula) showed us, that's like... 40 cards. That's an almost infinite amount of wiggle room.

Talking about the sideboard is fairly useless (outside of +1ery, in which I am clearly not above partaking) without at least an inkling of a meta description.

not-finite? Infinite, or non-finite may have been better. Or maybe improbable. But that sounds to much like PR the grammar Nazi. (please don't ban me......)

You don't have an infinite amount of wiggle room because you don't have that much room. You are limited by the colors you are using. I did state that there is a enchantment that can take care of any deck in the format, but not in :g: and :w: . We discuss the Sideboard possibilities not because we know the meta, but because we only know what might be most probable. Thresh and Dread/Land Still, Burn, Pox. All are viable decks, and are decks that we may have trouble with. Some have given up on the possibility of winning the first game. With what some put in their SB some put in MD.

And I thought I gave a meta description of sorts, given my personal choices for the meta, like Energy Storm and Pithing Needle, both I have yet to see in any list yet. My apologizes, I'll make it more informative next time, if there is a next time...

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

I think it may be more useful to mull over some general SB strategies.

There's the obvious silver bullet enchantment strategy, but you don't have to limit yourself to that alone.

I've enjoyed supplementing it with 3-4 E. Tutor slots. By running E. Tutors you can effectively turn your 1x Silver bulet into 4-5 slots. This is especially relevant against combo, where you can run CotV and have the option of tutoring it up.

You can also run fatties in addition to Chokes, Dovescape, and Karmic Justice in the board. Exalted Angel can be a solid choice, being outside of Deed, EE, or Counterbalance range, being able to fly over Moat, outrace a Tarmogoyf, and considering that most people will side out their spot removal post-board.

Some people have also had success with Orim's Chants in the board, but I've never really tried them out.

[Gibbie_X]

You can also run fatties in addition to Chokes, Dovescape, and Karmic Justice in the board.


Some people have also had success with Orim's Chants in the board, but I've never really tried them out.

Orim's Chant is an interesting choice, but wouldn't Vexing Shusher be a better option. It won't get countered. Unless ofcourse you were talking about stopping combo. Then I see it as a possibility. It would swing the combo match up a little better. But I can see you not getting any protection to get behind after stopping them once. Drop Grass and Moat, side in 3 Chant and 2 Runed Halo, could see trouble.

Earlier in this thread we discussed adding Thoughtseize. I liked the idea, but it took away from the deck, and had issues with mana, but not very often.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

The main purpose would be against combo.

Thoughtseize would be good but it seems like the color issue would make it unreliable.

[landstill101]

i've used orim's chant in the side for a long time because this deck get destroyed by combo, and I don't want to fuck with the mana base because of 1-2 decks, But with the addition of ad into the format, the few things I did have going for me just went out the door. Combo decks are running more discard and protection main than ever which hurts the idea of being able to drop a turn 2 halo and win because usually they will a.)go off before that or b.) they will duress it away.

Really what this is saying is, this deck really needs something sideboard to help against the match up but not in the way of adding another color.....which is why until I go up to mich this weekend to play to kind of see what the meta might be for Chicago, this deck has kind of sat on the back burner for the choice of blue.

[Gibbie_X]

I didn't talk about the fatties part though....

I was flipping this idea around last Extended season:
Phanatog + Temporal Isolation

A nice little combo that can be a one hit wonder, just like Psychatog. Then I started tossing around Yavimaya Enchantress, until I had one go to 10/10 with no effort, and I needed them in too. Then I saw Shield of the Oversoul and nearly shit myself. If you want fat, I suggest those critters.

But is regards to Combo, what about Root Maze? Completely stifles the deck, slows us down considerable, but its better than a loss....

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

You could run 4x CotV and 4x E. Tutor.

[grahf]

Interesting, I posted an aggro-oriented Enchantress build over in the casual forum:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12486

There's a slight awkwardness to it, where when you have Yavimaya Enchantress, Rancor, and Ancestral Mask as the core damage dealing components, there's no space most of the control elements that Enchantress needs to not die. And adding too many creatures reduces the critical mass of the enchantment-based draw engine, doubly so when you need creatures first to play auras. I completely forgot about Shield of the Oversoul though, that might solve some of my problems (targeted removal on Masked Enchantresses really sucks).

Seems amusing as a compact sideboard plan though, if your opponents board out all their targeted removal.

[honz]

You could run 4x CotV and 4x E. Tutor.

This has actually been on my mind for a while. It seems like a decent plan, but it would only buy you an extra couple of turns to flounder around.


But is regards to Combo, what about Root Maze

Root maze will slow them down by a turn or 2, but it will essentially do the same to you. I would say maze > chant, but neither is honestly helpful. An extra turn only gets you so far.

I think the best plan the deck has is just going glass cannon and auto-loosing to ANT, but utilizing that SB space to consistantly beat all other top tier decks. Taking up 8 SB slots and hoping to get lucky 2 games in a row just isn't a great plan.

[GreenOne]

I think the best plan the deck has is just going glass cannon and auto-loosing to ANT, but utilizing that SB space to consistantly beat all other top tier decks. Taking up 8 SB slots and hoping to get lucky 2 games in a row just isn't a great plan.
Quote for truth. Just board some number of Runed Halo and hope to get lucky.

[Gibbie_X]

Root maze will slow them down by a turn or 2, but it will essentially do the same to you. I would say maze > chant, but neither is honestly helpful. An extra turn only gets you so far.

I think the best plan the deck has is just going glass cannon and auto-loosing to ANT, but utilizing that SB space to consistantly beat all other top tier decks. Taking up 8 SB slots and hoping to get lucky 2 games in a row just isn't a great plan.

I hate taking the already defeat route, but that's what I get for playing this deck. I am pretty lucky sometimes, so you never know. I think most of the sorrier players will run with Ad Nausem, then loss because they don't know how to play it. I still have my side focused for the decks that will give the most trouble without compromising it for combo. I am looking forward to seeing people kill themselves with Ad Nausem, because I know it will happen.

[Redlotus27]

Anyone planning on trying Enchantress at the GP in Chicago?

I just had a miserable testing session against mono-red goblins. Played 20 games, lost 16 of them (no sideboard). Maybe it was just crappy luck, bad draws or crappy mulligan decisions but I was under the impression that enchantress was pretty close to auto win against goblins.

If anyone needs a decklist, I can throw one up here...

[Zach Tartell]

I'd love to see the list with which you went 20/80 against Goblins.

[Julian23]

Anyone planning on trying Enchantress at the GP in Chicago?

I just had a miserable testing session against mono-red goblins. Played 20 games, lost 16 of them (no sideboard). Maybe it was just crappy luck, bad draws or crappy mulligan decisions but I was under the impression that enchantress was pretty close to auto win against goblins.

If anyone needs a decklist, I can throw one up here...

20/80? against Mono Red Goblins? I'd love to see which way you found to lose here. 4x Elephant Grass + 2-4x Solitary Confinement + maybe Moat? Maybe you're running too much non-basics and got screwed by Wasteland? Really looking forward to your list!

[Redlotus27]

I was having an awful time dealing with getting my lands ported, and too many turn 1 or 2 lackey, into gang, and I kept getting finished off by sharpshooters (prospector untapping the shooter) while trying to stall behind E-grass. When I landed the confinement, I was good. When I didn't....


Here is what I was playing: (here goes...fire away!)

8 Forest
3 Plains
3 Savannah
2 Serra's Sanctum
1 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
(21)
4 Argothian Enchantress
(4)
4 Sterling Grove
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Elephant Grass
4 Enchantress's Presence
3 Solitary Confinement
2 Exploration
2 Ground Seal
2 Replenish
2 City of Solitude
2 Wild Growth
1 Aura of Silence
1 Karmic Justice
1 Moat
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Sacred Mesa
1 Words of War

[GreenOne]

I was having an awful time dealing with getting my lands ported, and too many turn 1 or 2 lackey, into gang, and I kept getting finished off by sharpshooters (prospector untapping the shooter) while trying to stall behind E-grass. When I landed the confinement, I was good. When I didn't....


Here is what I was playing: (here goes...fire away!)

8 Forest
3 Plains
3 Savannah
2 Serra's Sanctum
1 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
(21)
4 Argothian Enchantress
(4)
4 Sterling Grove
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Elephant Grass
4 Enchantress's Presence
3 Solitary Confinement
2 Exploration
2 Ground Seal
2 Replenish
2 City of Solitude
2 Wild Growth
1 Aura of Silence
1 Karmic Justice
1 Moat
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Sacred Mesa
1 Words of War
I'd just go with -1/2 Savannah +1/2 forest and -1 Aura of Silence +1 Oblivion Ring. You probably were unlucky, I never had any problem against monored (unless there was Anarchy involved) with a similar list, so try re-doing the test.

[Julian23]

Maybe 2 City of Solitude is a metagame based choice but in an open field I'd only run 1 md control-hoser. That aside I have to agree with GreenOne; I had much better results with a similar list in this matchup. Maybe you have to work on you mulligan decisions with this deck.

[GreenOne]

Maybe 2 City of Solitude is a metagame based choice but in an open field I'd only run 1 md control-hoser. That aside I have to agree with GreenOne; I had much better results with a similar list in this matchup. Maybe you have to work on you mulligan decisions with this deck.
I didn't notice the 2 cities.
Yeah, City of Solitude sucks in multiples, and it's only useful in the control matchup. Play the 3rd Replenish instead, that is still a bomb against control decks and quite useful in other matchups too.

[honz]

You should probably try testing with a sideboards, as it can drastically change things. Although i don't have anything in my board specifically against gobbos, i ussually board in: 1 sphere of law (used against burn/sligh, but it is sick in a mirror), 2 runed halo (lacky/seige/piledriver), 2 aura of silence (i hate vials). Although there is no real hoser here, any little advantage is beneficial.

The list looks pretty solid, but i think this is just another match-up where you want ESG. The speed it gives you is simply worth the space it takes. Also, 3 replenish is the way to go. They are good against anything running counters, board sweepers, tendrils, or goblin piledrivers.

[Redlotus27]

I'd just go with -1/2 Savannah +1/2 forest and -1 Aura of Silence +1 Oblivion Ring. You probably were unlucky, I never had any problem against monored (unless there was Anarchy involved) with a similar list, so try re-doing the test.

I never thought of replacing Aura with Oblivion Ring. I guess that provides a broader MD answer to problems. I can agree with dropping 1 City, although it was helpful in stopping Port. It would def be boarded out. The other issue I was having was sharpshooter nullifying my mesa tokens.

This is my tentative sideboard:

3 Runed Halo
2 Circle: Red
2 Wheel of Sun & Moon
2 Choke
2 Seal of Primordium
1 Replenish
1 Sacred Ground
1 Moat
1 Karmic Justice

So against the gobbos, I was going to go
-2 Ground Seal
-1 Karmic Justice
-2 City of Solitude
-1 Aura of Silence
+2 Circle:red
+3 Runed Halo
+1 Moat


All the help is greatly appreciated!

[GreenOne]

The other issue I was having was sharpshooter nullifying my mesa tokens.
Sigil of the Empty Throne (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=144064) will solve this problem :tongue:

[Julian23]

@Redlotus: For the record, I just played a single game against Goblins. He went T1 Lackey, T2 SGC T3 Warchief + Ringleader (revealing 3 Goblins). I won.

[Redlotus27]

@Redlotus: For the record, I just played a single game against Goblins. He went T1 Lackey, T2 SGC T3 Warchief + Ringleader (revealing 3 Goblins). I won.

How did your side of the game go? How were you able to stall him out? I must just draw really gawdawful, or the gob player just god-draws on me and finishes me off without attacking.

[Julian23]

How did your side of the game go? How were you able to stall him out? I must just draw really gawdawful, or the gob player just god-draws on me and finishes me off without attacking.

Nothing special, just the usual Enchantress cheese:

T1: Forest + Wild Growth
T2: Forest + Argothian Enchantress
T3: Plains + Solitary Confinement

at that point Goblins most likely lost. To cover things up I added Sterling Grove and Enchantress' Presence. If worse comes to worse and you can't find a 2nd Enchantress effect which is essential for maintaining a Confinement you can let Confinement die, pop Sterling Grove for Presence and replay everything with Replenish (which I right now run 3 mainboard).

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Can you describe your general strategy in that match-up? What hands do you keep? How do you spend your first four turns?

[Gibbie_X]

I never thought of replacing Aura with Oblivion Ring. I guess that provides a broader MD answer to problems. I can agree with dropping 1 City, although it was helpful in stopping Port. It would def be boarded out. The other issue I was having was sharpshooter nullifying my mesa tokens.

This is my tentative sideboard:

3 Runed Halo
2 Circle: Red
2 Wheel of Sun & Moon
2 Choke
2 Seal of Primordium
1 Replenish
1 Sacred Ground
1 Moat
1 Karmic Justice

So against the gobbos, I was going to go
-2 Ground Seal
-1 Karmic Justice
-2 City of Solitude
-1 Aura of Silence
+2 Circle:red
+3 Runed Halo
+1 Moat


All the help is greatly appreciated!

If goblins or burn still give you problems, Sphere of Law can be helpful. Seeing that you didn't play any games against the Goblins sideboard, you probably didn't see Sulfuric Vortex. Watch for Taiga, that probably means Grip in sideboard. As for strategy, get behind Moat or Elephant Grass as fast as possible. Moat is almost auto-win, and Grass really prevents them from dropping you to lethal. Is 2 copies of Moat necessary in Enchantress? I think only 1 is enough, more than enough sometimes.

I would still run 1 Aura of Silence main. That can be endgame against so many decks. Certainly not goblins. The :w::w: can be nasty early, but good if they drop a 3sphere or two, or Smokestack.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Your best strategy against goblins is

Turn 1 acceleration, trying to dodge Wasteland and Port, if possible.
Turn 2 Enchantress
Turn 3 play as many spells as you can, and dig for an Elephant Grass
Turn 4 Depending on their board position, either dig for Confinement or multiple Grasses.

The key here is not to be overly defensive.

Hiding behind Moat is a really bad strategy here because their deck is designed to have a very versatile offense. Your best bet is to aggressively pursue your own game plan, and use Grass to stall them, but I would almost never play Grass or any defensive enchantments before turn 3.

[GreenOne]

The key here is not to be overly defensive.

Hiding behind Moat is a really bad strategy here because their deck is designed to have a very versatile offense. Your best bet is to aggressively pursue your own game plan, and use Grass to stall them, but I would almost never play Grass or any defensive enchantments before turn 3.
Yeah, first play an enchantress, then slow them down, then win. Sometimes it can be worth it to play an oblivion ring on their turn 1 Lackey before it connects, but generally you just want to draw a lot of cards and play a grass, then a moat or a confinament. Watch out for Warren Weirding.