[Deck] Solitaire (Enchantress)

[FieryBalrog]

I have Nassif's combo version updated. It rolls over really fast to any disruption, including the ubiquitous counterbalance. Its a decent goldfish but a really bad legacy combo.

[waSP]

I do not believe straight Eternal Wind combo is a viable deck without Frantic Search. The controlling elements are absolutely invaluable to the way the deck survives.

[Nonex]

I strongly suggest that players reevaluate running less than four solitary confinements in enchantress. Drawing a confinement is much better than tutoring for one, and drawing more than one has not been detrimental during my testing. Unless you are facing a deck capable of bolt/bolt/fireblast, then saccing one confinement during upkeep to hit your draw step and then play another confinement is +2 cards at minimal risk, and should draw you at least one card for being another enchantment. Oftentimes I find myself facing strong early pressure and having to chain confinements together with replenishes to maintain a wall against agro in zerg mode. I don't see a deck with only 2 confinements doing this as reliably, as you can't always have 2 enchantress effects, grove, grove, confinement out every game.

I posted my list earlier, you can ignore the land-base if you want as I have an unnatural fear of wasteland. the important aspect is the 4 confinement/4 sterling grove/1 enlightened tutor package. I'm considering another enlightened tutor, but I like the enchantment density where it currently is.

I've just taken a look at your list (I should have done it right when you posted it, my fault) because I just couldn't understand your point, especially your hard times facing aggro. Now I can say that IMHO what you actually need is Moat. Right now your aggro walls are all conditional (Elephant Grass with cumulative upkeep and Solitary Confinement with discard upkeep + draw step skip) so the fact that they can't stay there for long forces you to run more copies of them and even Enlightened Tutor in addition to 4 Sterling Grove to help find them. I suggest 1-2 Moat, but since their price is beyond mortals' reach I guess Island Sanctuary could be an alternative.

[Xero]

If you can't afford Moat, Humilty out of the SB is okay. It does turn off Enchantress, but it hurts aggro opponents even worse.

[waSP]

I'll just post a brief tournament report as i 3-1-1'd a 40ish person tournament. Got 9th on tiebreakers. The tournament should have run 1 extra round to allow x-1-1 records to make top 8 (#8 was 4-1). I made a very stupid sideboarding choice to cause the draw, but that'll be below.

Round 1 against TPS
Terrible, terrible matchup. My opponent was very bad, but it didn't make much of a difference. I may have been able to win game 1 if I had played enchantments in a different order, but I didn't expect he was that terrible.

Round 2 against Affinity
I lock him down game 1 with Energy Field/Wheel of Sun and Moon, he scoops. Game 2 I side out the win conditions and just go for the lockdown/decking strategy. I mull 3 times and he wins fairly quickly. We pause for a moment and move to game 3. There's only about 12 minutes left in the round so I feel rushed and don't side in the win conditions. I get the hard lock on turn 4 or 5, but we draw as I don't have time to actually deck him.

Round 3 against Eva Green
I stop him with Elephant Grass, get some angel tokens. Dark Confidant kills him while I try to get the Sigil back to have enough attackers to finish him off. Game 2 I get the hard lock very quickly and he just scoops.

Round 4 against Angel Stax
I roll him both games pretty hard. His only chance is to do a timely Geddon, but he doesn't have it either time.

Round 5 against Angel Stax
I make a bad mulligan choice game 1 and get Trinisphere locked early. Smokestack comes down and it's over. Game 2 I win handily and game 3 he mulls to 4.

[Meister_Kai]

snip

Good job at the tournament! No matter what version, I love it when Enchantress is represented at the table. However,

Match 1: lost vs a deck we lose to naturally.
Match 2: lost vs a deck we should win against, but you lost due to the timing issues I brought up earlier.
Match 3: Is actually a bad match-up for this deck, good job winning!
Match 4: Your opponent loses when he has terrible luck and mulls to 4.

I mean, i'm not trying to steal you thunder, but losing match 2, a match that we should (on paper) have a winning percentage in due to your card choices seems sort of counter-productive.

Where there any situations in which WoWar would of won you the game? Where there any instances in which WoWind won you the game?

Also,
Game 2 I side out the win conditions and just go for the lockdown/decking strategy.

How is this a good strategy? Did you want the match to go win-draw? I don't understand how this is a good strategy.

[waSP]

@Meister Kai
I didn't lose match 2. I drew. But if I had made a correct sideboarding decision, it would have been a win.

Eva Green is a good matchup for my build. WoWind is very strong against tempo decks as they can't handle having their lands or threats bounced.

Angel Stax should be a good matchup. Just hold back a couple of lands and use O. Rings effectively (bouncing them to make them more effective.

There were no instances where WoWar would have been effective. In fact, running it would have lost me the game to Eva Green as I would have tried to burn out the Confidant and Tombstalker and would have eventually succumbed to pressure. Lucky me!

There were 3 instances where Words of Wind absolutely won me the game. Once versus Eva Green maximizing my ability to use Sigil of the Empty Throne, and twice versus Angel Stax not allowing them to recover after Smokestack slowed the game down.

When you win game 1 and you have the lockdown option, it is useful to not draw Sigil of the Empty Throne as it has little effect on the early game. No shames in winning your matches 1-0.

[FieryBalrog]

While it depends on the builds, I don't see how Stax is necessarily a good matchup given our abundance of cheap enchantments and reliance on having a decent amount of mana. On the positive side we have craploads of permanents.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Stax generally has several dead slots in the form of creature control, and without Workshop, their disruption is usually slower than our acceleration. Their pressure is also slow.

As long as you play around their 'geddon effects, you should be money. Especially with Sacred Ground and K. Justice out of the board.

[Savo]

Hi
last sunday I top4ed a (about)50 people tournament in Milan with this list

4 argothian enchantress
4 enchantress presence
4 sterling grove
4 solitary confinement
2 replenish

4 utopia sprawl
2 wild growth
3 gaea’s touch
2 mirri’s guile
4 elephant grass

2 in the eye of chaos
2 city of solitude

1 sigil of the empty throne
1 oblivion ring
1 karmic justice

2 Serra’s sanctum
2 savannah
1 tropical island
4 windswept heat
2 plains
9 forest

SIDE
3 abeyance
2 choke
2 wheel of sun and moon
2 karmic justice
2 spectral prison
2 circle of protection: green
1 sacred mesa
1 replenish

These are the matchups: 3 survival(!), 2 zoo (qasali/confidant etc), 1 aggro loam, 1canadian, 1It's the fear. I lost in the semis from a survival that consistently put into play gaddock+canonist. I also made a draw with another survival.

I'm quite happy of my maindeck and I feel it's good for Italian metagame (although I was paired quite strangely this time: three survival is strange):eyebrow: .

In the sideboard I liked a lot the third replenish and the karmics: they are a MUST play to me. On the other hand, I wish I had some more oblivion rings post side to stop these nasty Survivals/canonists/gaddoks. :rolleyes:

[Lev]

congrats to the good tournament.

list looks ok, but i think it could be better, but i dont know about your metagame. i just think you will have a hard time against aggro with that focus against control (2 city of solitude, 2 eye of chaos, 3 gaeas touch, no moat!!)

i always used to run third replenish and two additonal karmic justice in the sb. so no real new experience to me.

spectral prison in sb is probably meant to be ghostly prison?

also, why do you run sacred mesa and 2 green cop in the board? abeyance doesnt make that much sense to me either.

oh and i just want to say ;) gaddock and canonist would not have caused ANY problem if you ran words of war... :P

[Savo]

congrats to the good tournament.

list looks ok, but i think it could be better, but i dont know about your metagame. i just think you will have a hard time against aggro with that focus against control (2 city of solitude, 2 eye of chaos, 3 gaeas touch, no moat!!)

i always used to run third replenish and two additonal karmic justice in the sb. so no real new experience to me.

spectral prison in sb is probably meant to be ghostly prison?

also, why do you run sacred mesa and 2 green cop in the board? abeyance doesnt make that much sense to me either.

oh and i just want to say ;) gaddock and canonist would not have caused ANY problem if you ran words of war... :P

Very good objections, thanks,they make me reflect :wink:

yes, I'm not focused against aggro, but: pure aggro (zoo, monored, goyfsligh, goblin) is a good matchup anyway. Merfolk is a bad matchup in my opinion, because it associates good disruption and fast clock(turn five kill generally) but I still didn't find a way to improve it. Maybe I'd try to test... carpet of flowers :confused: what do you think about this "tech"?

I really dislike moat because: against pure aggro is overkill, my interest is going with confinement lock. against aggressive daze-fow deck is overkill too, because it comes too late to matter: or I've already won or I've already lost.

Of course spectral prison is ghostly prison sorry:rolleyes:

Cop: green is there for canadian (very strong against it because it plays few creatures) and bant threshold/baseruption (in particular it's good to stop goyfs AND trygons, differently from runed halo. this is alternative to runed halo. Runed halo is better against combo but I don't care, I simply hope not to be paired against ANT).

Abeyance is not great, but sometimes useful: i side it against ANT, but it's a match loss however. Differently from chant, that's good against control too (landstill, slow countertop decks like "It's the fear") 'cause it doesn't waste your card advantage and (tries to) block top for a turn, or stops tormod threatening a replenish, forcing the opponent to break it.

Sacred mesa is a second backup win con in case I play against extirpate or counter+graveyard hate. It's useless most of the time, but I prefer not to risk.

Yes words of war could be an answer to caddogks/canonists, but, given that this is the only situation in which I think it's preferable to my other maindeck enchantments, I'd play it on sideboard --> on sideboard I prefer obliovion ring for that task: first of all it does something if you topdeck it alone, then it removes any silver bullet the opponent might have, not only creatures. I really think I'll cut the ghostly prisons for oblivion rings.

[Dr.AgOn]

moat is overkill against aggro?? wtf?
for confinement you need at least 2 enchantress effects in play to keep it alive or else the aggro player will kill you on the spot. moat on the other hand doesn't have any drawback. You can cast it with or without enchantress effects and it has saved me uncountable times. It's an auto win against goblins and good in other matchups too. But one real cool thing moat lacks is you don't have shroud... :(

[waSP]

I agree that Moat is overkill against aggro. It's too expensive to do the job you want it to do early game and mid and late game Confinement is better 90% of the time.

Like it's fun to try a naked Moat turn 3 to see if you blow out your opponents, but it doesn't seem like a great strategy. I'd rather build my board and draw out their counter and stabilize at 3-10 life (and be sure it's going to work).

Has anyone considered running COP: Red in the board and using the chaining of Confinements as their strategy in all aggro matchups? Or running more Runes of Protection; 2 each for whatever creatures are favored in your metagame. It could be an interesting play if you have a solidly defined meta. Might require some tweaks in the mana base, though (the bad ones cycle, giving you more flexibility).

[Wasteland]

Hi there,
thats the build that took me to a 6:1 in Kempten (Germany), the only loss was against ANT where i dont have do give any comment^^. Wins were against: Burn, Landstill, It's the Fear, Merfolk (not even close, this MU is nearly not winnable for the merfolk-player not regarding what any other player says, Slivers, Nassif.dec (4C Counterbalance-control).

//Lands (21)
2x savannah
2x horizon canopy
9x forest
2x plains
4x windswept heath
2x serra's sanctum

//Creatures (4)
4x argothian enchantress

//Other spells (35)
4x wild growth
4x utopia sprawl
2x gaea's touch
4x enchantress's presence
3 sigil of the empty throne

(right, i prefered to take out the city of solitude from the maindeck since the throne wins so often alone - i see it as enchantment-effect 9-11, since an with gaea's touch accelerated throne gives u random wins that a mesa (crappy card) or a words of war (ONLY effective with 2 enchantment-effects) cant...)

2x oblivion ring (would like to have a 3. in the MD)
2x ground seal (would like to have a 3. in the MD too but no place^^)
3x elephant grass
1x moat
3x solitary confinement
2x replenish
4x sterling grove
1x karmic justice

//Sideboard
3x choke
2x city of solitude
1x karmic justice
2x circle of protection: red
3x runed halo
2x oblivion ring
2x sacred ground

Sideboard will probably go -1 choke -1 runed halo +1 aura of silence +1 rule of law (or +2 abeyances).
Greetz,
Marius Hausmann

[badjuju]

snip

Nice job there. I like the look of the list.
It was okay only having throne as a win condition?
Also mind telling us how the games against ITF, Merfolk, and Baseruption went? I'm really interested.

Also have people moved on from Exploration and Chrome Mox to run Gaea's Touch?

[Wasteland]

Not much to say to the MU's vs Merfolk / Sliver: In both games i got a Confinement online in round 4 or 5 being still on 10 or more life (part elephant grass / part too slow enemy beatdown with only 1-2 critters) while still having a moat in my hand that would have won anyway (opponents did force my enchantress so he had not an additional for the lock-piece).

Against Landstill it was quite an easy game 1, having the 2. enchantress-effect in round 6 or so and the replenish brought the game home, having 2 sigils in my grave. Game 2 i lost cause i had to mulligan to 5 (and even this hand was not good), while my opponent had 3 Standstills and 3 Forces^^ but game 3 was as easy as game 1 (and quite funny, since my opponent had to destroy 6 cc3 enchantments with his explosive which destroyed his own manabase due to karmic justice).

Against ITF i lost game 1 due to a early counterbalance, which countered BLIND 2 enchantresses. But game 2 and 3 were quite easy thanks to choke and an early sigil (3 4/4er ofer 3 round were enough to take away all his removal and he scooped)

Burn-Mu was boring. Game 1 turn 4 confinement (at 8 life), game 2 turn 3 circle of protection red (at 11 life).

Baseruption was easy too. Game 1 i handled a early Confidant with an oblivion ring (daze-proofed) and let his tarmogoyf take me to 4 life while picking 2 forces from his hand with the 2. enchantress's presence and a confinement before i ended the game with replenish. Game 2 he got an early counterbalance + top but city of solitude is really great against that^^. Round 8 or so i got double sterling grove and a moat which lets him scoop.

Now for the Sigils: I NEVER wanted to have another win-option, the reasons i already mentioned. Exploration suxx, cause it is card-disadvantage after you put 1 or 2 additional lands into play. You can't keep hands with 1 land and exploration while hands with a land and 1-2 growths / sprawls are ok. Gaea's touch is with an enchantress-effect not only a free cantrip but helps also to accelerate for a sigil (if i played less sigils i would probably cut the touches for a 3. oblivion ring and a 3. ground seal).
Chrome mox is not good too cause it does not accelerate to 3 mana (the magic number in this deck), makes card-disadvantage AND is not an enchantment itself (u really don't want to fizzle with confinement / 2 enchantress-effects in play drawing chrome mox + land).
The ONLY advantage is that you can play a 1. round enchantress, while u get a presence not earlier online with the mox than with growths / sprawls. This little speed-advantage is it not worth in my opinion to play a crappy card-disadvantage card.

Greetz,
Marius Hausmann

[badjuju]

True, the card disadvantage from Chrome Mox hurts a lot in this deck. I suppose I've just gotten used to the ability to make pretty good turn 1 plays, especially slapping down an enchantress, allowing you to make the 3CC plays on turn 2. I will try using Gaea's Touch (which I haven't already) also.

I've also tried shied away from using Savannahs at all. Over time, I've only very rarely been in situations where this has hindered me, and being immune to Wasteland (sans Sanctum) is a great feeling. I might still run one though, just for those situations where I really need the double white for an early Runed Halo, while still being able to cast Wild Growth effects.

My list compared to yours is something like:

-3 Wild Growth
-2 Gaea's Touch
-1 Sterling Grove
+3 Chrome Mox
+2 Runed Halo (amazing)
+1 Replenish

and then all basic lands.

It might also be difference in playstyle as well, since I also tend to keep solid mono-white control hands. Sigil like you said is pretty much just like bumping enchantress effects up to 11, so I've also won a lot of games just forcing a slew of angels down my opponent's throat.
The setup has been treating me well so far, but I will test your build also!

[Lev]

Totally out of context, here is my latest list which I want to carry to a tournament Saturday:

// Lands
8 [SHM] Forest (1)
1 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
2 [US] Serra's Sanctum
3 [9E] Plains (1)
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [B] Savannah
1 [B] Taiga

// Creatures
4 [US] Argothian Enchantress

// Spells
1 [OD] Karmic Justice
1 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
2 [UD] Replenish
1 [8E] Blood Moon
1 [US] Exploration
2 [6E] Wild Growth
1 [LG] Sylvan Library
2 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
4 [ON] Enchantress's Presence
4 [IN] Sterling Grove
4 [VI] Elephant Grass
4 [DIS] Utopia Sprawl
3 [OD] Ground Seal
3 [JU] Solitary Confinement
1 [CFX] Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 [ON] Words of War
1 [LG] Moat

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [OD] Karmic Justice
SB: 1 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 [UD] Replenish
SB: 1 [8E] Blood Moon
SB: 2 [8E] Choke
SB: 2 [8E] Sacred Ground
SB: 2 [6E] Warmth
SB: 1 [10E] Aura of Silence
SB: 1 [VI] City of Solitude
SB: 1 [9E] Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 [PLC] Seal of Primordium

Expected metagame: absolutely random. Probably a lot of fish and zoo.
The maindecked Blood Moon is my Choke, just that it works against almost every deck instead of only blue ones.
I'm not sure whether to play the 1off Exploration over a 3rd Wild Growth.
Also I might take out 1-2 Ground Seals for other maindeck cards, maybe 1 CoP:R and 1 Choke as strong Tutor targets, then I might aswell cut the Blood Moon from the md, making space for a second Oblivion Ring or an Aura of Silence or something.

Thoughts?

[Sevryn]

Lev,

I really like running 4 Wild Growth and 4 Utopia Sprawls instead of any number of Explorations. It makes opening hands more consistent because they are less reliant on having 3+ lands to function.

Also, I like Mirri's Guile more than Sylvan Library. It's a great 1-drop and it works under confinement. It has good synergy with fetchlands too.

I only run 1 enlightened tutor, but if 2 are working well for you there's probably no need to change. However, you could cut one for the 3rd Replenish, as that is recommended.

I like your sideboard.

[sauce]

im so confused why are people playing ground seal...?
i mean yeah.. it cantrips on its own, but what are you afraid of main deck extirpates or something?

Capitalization is required on this site. Use it. -zilla

[anonymos]

I have a love hate relationship with ground seal. I run it because it replaces itself and serves a function on top of that. Extirpate isn't so much the problem, but where I'm at at least there's LftL decks, reanimator and Ichorid. You need all the help you can get for 2 of the 3 of those.

[Nidd]

im so confused why are people playing ground seal...?
i mean yeah.. it cantrips on its own, but what are you afraid of main deck extirpates or something?
Uhm, you know about Ichorid and Loam? it cantrips on its own, yes. And the nice thing is that it gets protected from bounce by Sterling Grove, you can tutor it and it just has overall more synergy with the rest of the deck than Crypt does.

[sauce]

we have no loam/reanimator in our meta, i guess it never an issue, i run 2 runed halo's in that spot

Capitalization is required on this site. Use it. -zilla

[Nidd]

we have no loam/reanimator in our meta, i guess it never an issue, i run 2 runed halo's in that spot
Runed Halo costs WW, while Ground Seal costs 1G.

But oh well, Runed Halo somewhat protects you against Storm and Belcher...

[AcidFiend]

im so confused why are people playing ground seal...?
i mean yeah.. it cantrips on its own, but what are you afraid of main deck extirpates or something?

GS digs you another card closer to Solitary while being easy to cast & shutting off any reanimation/loam business. I've felt it really adds consistency to the deck.

[AcidFiend]

3 x Sigil list

I really like this list bro. I want to test a small modification, adding 3rd Ground Seal & Oblivion Ring and taking out Gaea's Touch. You probably already tested it thus your current configuration, but hey I gotta see for myself :)

Edit: Sorry for double post >.<

[Dark Ritual]

Ground seal is fine against some of the meta it wrecks some stuff. I'd laugh if I ever played ground seal against loam or reanimator....ichorid is already so favorable for us though since we have moat, elephant grass, and ground seal. Some lists also run wheel of sun and moon. I love that ground seal cantrips as well just drawing cards is insanely fun with any deck lol.

3x Sigil? I would go 2 at the most since it is kinda dead without chrome mox in your opener or as a topdeck pre combo/lock. And I would agonize over what to cut for a 3rd one since the deck is so tight.

[darkdeal]

Is Groundseal better than Wheel of Sun and Moon?

[Otter]

Is Groundseal better than Wheel of Sun and Moon?

It's easier to maindeck a copy or two of Ground Seal, but out of the board I think Wheel is just a better hate effect.

[Sevryn]

Is Groundseal better than Wheel of Sun and Moon?

Groundseal cantrips more than anything else. Wheel of Sun and Moon is probably better graveyard hate, but you can't really put it in the maindeck unless you also run Energy Field.

[Dark Ritual]

Yeah wheel seems like the better GY hate overall as it basically says to ichorid "Hi I'm leyline you can't dredge for answers" and it can't be chain of vapored because it is so easy to recast for a deck that is mainly G/W.

I run a 3/1 split of ground seal and 1 WoSaM. I just love seal because it cantrips and I have shinies of it, but ichorid is so favorable a matchup it isn't funny it's basically a bye. I play elephant grass, you scoop sir or afterwards I set up my solitary lock. GG's.

[Zinch]

Well, this can change now that some Ichorid decks run an Iona as a Dread Return target. If they can reanimate Iona before you play a defensive tool, you are in a big trouble, because all permanent answers against creatures are white as almost all win conditions.

[Julian23]

I'd always run 4 Ground Seal over any amount of Wheels of Sun and Moon. Ground Seal can just hit the board at any time and have immediate effect.

[Otter]

Well, this can change now that some Ichorid decks run an Iona as a Dread Return target. If they can reanimate Iona before you play a defensive tool, you are in a big trouble, because all permanent answers against creatures are white as almost all win conditions.

Not sure I agree with that -- all of the Chantress effects are green, as are the majority of the enchantments including Elephant Grass. It takes Iona three turns to go lethal, assuming they can pay the Elephant Grass cost(s). Shouldn't be that hard to dig for Words of War and either just kill them or kill Iona then establish Solitary. Of course, if you're opting out of Word of War to just play Sigils, then you lose. But I still like a 1/1 split on WoW/Sigil.

[Dark Ritual]

Yeah ichorid lists with Iona....shoudl still be highly favored. They can pick their poinson; name green for chantress effects, elephant grass, and ground seal/WoSaM, or name white so you can't solitary lockdown, no oring, among other things. But Iona doesn't seem that great against us since they have to combo out to get her out and then we have 3 turns to answer her which should be pretty easy.

[FieryBalrog]

I was just looking at deckcheck and I was surprised to notice that Enchantress has been making quite a lot of top 8s lately, esp. considering how "many" people are usually playing this deck:
http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?type=Enchantress&format=Legacy

Including some quite large events:
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29417
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29985
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29455

Seems like the past few months Enchantress has gotten more competitive? Is it the shift of the meta to a more aggro-based meta (where Enchantress is obviously better)? Is it the printing of Sigil? Is it Oblivion Ring and Journey to Nowhere giving Enchantress some badly needed removal?

Seems to me like this deck still doesn't really get talked about much when speaking of the metagame, when comparatively placed decks like Stax or Dragon Stompy or Aggro Loam get way more attention. Is Enchantress now more at T1.5 status?

[AcidFiend]

Yeah ichorid lists with Iona....shoudl still be highly favored. They can pick their poinson; name green for chantress effects, elephant grass, and ground seal/WoSaM, or name white so you can't solitary lockdown, no oring, among other things. But Iona doesn't seem that great against us since they have to combo out to get her out and then we have 3 turns to answer her which should be pretty easy.

I can tell you right now Iona will be named with white. You can't remove her (no o-ring), can't win (no Sigil), can't lock (no Solitary), can't tutor (no Sterling). Unless you draw into your 1-of Words of War, you die.

Whether they can get her into play before you cast Groundseal etc is another story.

[Sevryn]

I can tell you right now Iona will be named with white. You can't remove her (no o-ring), can't win (no Sigil), can't lock (no Solitary), can't tutor (no Sterling). Unless you draw into your 1-of Words of War, you die.

Whether they can get her into play before you cast Groundseal etc is another story.

Lignify actually addresses this, if you really fear Reanimator strategies. The problem is that they will still name white to cut off your tutors and o-ring, so if you only run 1-2 copies you better hope you are lucky and they don't have a counterspell (p.s. they do). Groundseal has to come down before iona, and even with it down, they can still use Exhume.

Reanimator is tier 1 imo... not sure if there's any evidence for this, but I don't think other decks in the format are really as prepared for a turn 2 Iona as they think they are.

[AcidFiend]

I agree that Reanimator is underrated. Its certainly not so popular we need to switch our entire deck, but personally I'm a little bored of this deck and perhaps moving to Dark Enchantress could be an option with MD Leylines. Hoses a lot of strategies off the bat (loam, any crucible deck, dredge, reanimator).

[anonymos]

Thanks for the Lignify suggestion. I'd been looking for some way to deal with Iona.

My local meta is being dominated by little blue men. What in the world do I use for an answer? They've figured out that they can ignore most things I play until I go for Grass, Confinement, Words, Sigil and Replenish. I've tried 4 City of Solitude and 4 Choke (seperately) and didn't really like either option. What's the suggestion?

[Xero]

Moat if you can afford it, Humility if not. I suppose you could run CoP:Blue, but only if like 2/3 of the decks you play are Merfolk.

[anonymos]

In what usually comes out as an 8 or so person tournament, you can afford to give hate that is as dedicated as CoP: Blue. I keep forgetting about Humility. I wish had the money for Moat.

[grahf]

I agree that Reanimator is underrated. Its certainly not so popular we need to switch our entire deck, but personally I'm a little bored of this deck and perhaps moving to Dark Enchantress could be an option with MD Leylines. Hoses a lot of strategies off the bat (loam, any crucible deck, dredge, reanimator).

This is interesting... would you still play Replenish? If black becomes the splash color instead of red, would Words of Waste replace WoWar? I've been thinking recently about how Words of War doesn't do much until you win. Once you get to the point where you can skip 10 draws to the opponent's face, winning is a formality - you'll usually have tons of enchantment locks and protections, a Sanctum tapping for 10+ white mana, etc...

However, Words of Waste has a more incremental but immediate effect. That's the argument made for Words of Wind as well, except that Waste would be much more annoying for control and combo decks. Pinging guys with WoWar always seems like a desparate last-ditch action, and the fact that the opponent chooses what to bounce with WoWind is unexciting.

Perhaps The Abyss might be playable in black enchantress too, that would be interesting, if a little slow, not full a replacement for moat/humility.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Leyline doesn't affect your Replenish.


re: Fish - If Merfolk is ignoring your Enchantresses and just trying to counter your control elements, then you should have all ready won. They're not fast enough to consistently race the engine AND counter Grasses, Confinements, Replenishes, etc. Much less post-board with Choke. Maybe you're not running enough acceleration? Or maybe your curve is too high?

[grahf]

Leyline doesn't affect your Replenish

Ack, I fail for forgetting what cards do.

[Gibbie_X]

Why is everyone worried about reanimator? With the lists I have seen with most people running more than 1 Ground Seal, you should worry about turn one, and we can't do shit against any deck turn 1. Wheel of Sun and Moon is a card I really like, but use it wisely. I made the mistake of siding it in against Survival, and that is REALLY dumb, trust me.
We can run Leyline if we really need to, but I don't think it will help.

Also, if they name green, Lignify is bunk. If you want one of each color, you have pacifism, or Temporal Isolation, which I like as well.

[Sevryn]

Why is everyone worried about reanimator? With the lists I have seen with most people running more than 1 Ground Seal, you should worry about turn one, and we can't do shit against any deck turn 1. Wheel of Sun and Moon is a card I really like, but use it wisely. I made the mistake of siding it in against Survival, and that is REALLY dumb, trust me.
We can run Leyline if we really need to, but I don't think it will help.

Also, if they name green, Lignify is bunk. If you want one of each color, you have pacifism, or Temporal Isolation, which I like as well.

Having played against reanimator, the chances that you actually drop ground seal in a relevant time frame are quite low. They are aiming for a turn 2 Iona, naming white. You need to first draw ground seal, which is frequently not run as a 4-of, and then you need to play it before they cast a reanimation spell. Furthermore, ground seal does not shut off exhume. Finally, they have counterspells. Yes it is great once it is down. No, you can not guarantee that you will drop it fast enough or often enough.

And yes, they will name white. This shuts down all of your tutors, solitary, and oblivion ring. Leaving you your draw engine, which lets you draw into all of your useless white cards. Elephant grass is not an answer, they will just happily pay 2 each turn. Moat does not help, first off it is white and second Iona flies.

Lignify is the best answer that I can think of for having a non-white answer to an in-play Iona. Unfortunately, since your tutors are turned off, you will have to hope to draw into it before Iona swings 3 times. Good luck.

[FieryBalrog]

Reanimator doesn't always run counterspells and if they do, its a 4x Force that is usually not that well supported. However, the Turn 2 Iona is a pretty huge deal, and you'll often lose Game 1 because of it. Game 2 must involve more relevant graveyard hate in order to bring the matchup in your favor.

[Justin]

Having played against reanimator, the chances that you actually drop ground seal in a relevant time frame are quite low. They are aiming for a turn 2 Iona, naming white. You need to first draw ground seal, which is frequently not run as a 4-of, and then you need to play it before they cast a reanimation spell. Furthermore, ground seal does not shut off exhume. Finally, they have counterspells. Yes it is great once it is down. No, you can not guarantee that you will drop it fast enough or often enough.

And yes, they will name white. This shuts down all of your tutors, solitary, and oblivion ring. Leaving you your draw engine, which lets you draw into all of your useless white cards. Elephant grass is not an answer, they will just happily pay 2 each turn. Moat does not help, first off it is white and second Iona flies.

Lignify is the best answer that I can think of for having a non-white answer to an in-play Iona. Unfortunately, since your tutors are turned off, you will have to hope to draw into it before Iona swings 3 times. Good luck.

This is exactly right. I've played both decks and the Re-animator player will always name white off an Iona. A turn two Iona is horrible for the Enchantress player even if you have a single Lignify in your deck. You are dead by turn five and don't have a lot of time to draw into it if it is not in hand, considering that your Sterling Grove cannot be played. Still, Lignify at least gives you a fighting chance.

I'm thinking that running a single Lignify main deck is not a bad choice. In other matchups, you can hit big creatures such as Marit Lage, Dreadnought, Tombstalker, etc. Playing it on a goyf can even buy you enough time to win. If you've never seen any Re-animator in your meta, it's probably not worth it though.

[Darkenslight]

There's a card called Skyshooter that taps to destroy a flying attacker/blocker.

It costs 1G and it's a 1/2. It also has reach.

Also, there's an enchantment called Katabatic Winds that Arrests flyers. Only downside is that it has Phasing. It costs 2G.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

...no.

vs. Reanimator: Sweet Jesus. If they name white, just go off and try to get multiple Grasses out or WoWar for 4 cards; you've got 3 turns, if you can't do it, your decklist may be too slow. If you're that scared, Lignify or Custody Battle are options. Blue has Seal of Removal, and black has a plethora of options.

Why wouldn't they name green, again? Because of O. Ring? That seems insane.

[Sevryn]

...no.

vs. Reanimator: Sweet Jesus. If they name white, just go off and try to get multiple Grasses out or WoWar for 4 cards; you've got 3 turns, if you can't do it, your decklist may be too slow. If you're that scared, Lignify or Custody Battle are options. Blue has Seal of Removal, and black has a plethora of options.

Why wouldn't they name green, again? Because of O. Ring? That seems insane.

Okay, this works great in theory. I'm sorry, but it sounds like you have not played this matchup.

Let's assume the typical case: you don't have ground seal. Your turn 1 you accelerate, their turn 1 they entomb (or careful study, or ritual/buried alive). Your turn two you drop an enchantress, their turn 2 they bring back Iona and name white (yes, they absolutely will name white).

Now you are facing a 3 turn clock. A standard turn 3 here is to drop another enchantress, and then drop elephant grass. Their turn 3, they pay 2 and swing for 7. Maybe you got lucky and draw another elephant grass, draw 2 off of it and they are paying 4 to attack... but what now? Likely you have dead white enchantments in your hand, so your 'engine' is bad. You are relying on NOT drawing sterling grove (4), solitary confinement (2-3), karmic justice (1), sigil (1-2), oblivion ring (1), moat (1)... basically a third of your enchantments. And your proposed out is to lucksack into drawing words of war, to skip four draws to kill iona? Have you ever played this matchup? It doesn't work, because you won't even draw WoWar, likely one of your enchantresses met a counter, half of your hand is completely dead, and elephant grass sucks when the opponent is willing to pay.

[FieryBalrog]

Why wouldn't they name green, again? Because of O. Ring? That seems insane.

How is that insane? The main thing you name with Iona is the removal color (with certain specific exceptions), which in many cases (including this case) happens to be White. And also happens to include most of the relevant creature control, the win-cons, and tutors. Since Words of War is pretty much a 1 of, its hard to find it without grove, on top of which you need at least 2 enchantress effects and a decent amount of mana (minimum- 6) and 2 green enchantments in hand to be able to kill Iona. Not really a solution.

[ssw]

I top-4 splitted 2 consecutive tournaments with Enchantress:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14809 - 33 players
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15330 - 40 players

My list for both:

4x Argothian Enchantress
4x Enchantress's Presence
4x Utopia Sprawl
4x Elephant Grass
4x Sterling Grove
3x Wild Growth
3x Solitary Confinement
3x Ground Seal
2x Replenish
2x Enlightened Tutor
1x Words of War
1x Sigil of the Empty Throne
1x Blood Moon
1x Karmic Justice
1x Moat
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Seal of Primordium

9x Forest
3x Plains
4x Windswept Heath
1x Savannah
1x Taiga
2x Serra's Sanctum

SB:

3x Choke
2x City of Solitude
2x Blood Moon
2x Sacred Ground
1x Replenish
1x CoP: Red
1x Karmic Justice
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Aura of Silence
1x Runed Halo

I don't have detailed enough notes from the matches, so I'll try to run them down from memory.

Tournament 1:

Round 1: Win Tempo Bant 2-1
Round 2: Lose ANT 0-2
Round 3: Win Midrange Rock 2-1
Round 4: Win Probasco CT 2-1 (blindsided by Reverent Silence)
Round 5: Win Probasco CT 2-1 (blindsided by Reverent Silence again)
Round 6: Win UGB(?) Counter-Top 2-0
T8: Win Merfolk 2-0 (no answers in the 75 to Moat)

Tournament 2:

Round 1: Win Zoo 2-0
Round 2: Win Thopter Foundry / Sword 2-0
Round 3: Lose Merfolk 0-2 (frustrating games. Lost game 1 when I didn't have a read on what he was on and kept a hand with no way to beat folk. Lost game 2 when he has 3x standstill and forced all of my relevant spells)
Round 4: Win Probasco CT 2-0
Round 5: Win Canadian Threshold 2-1 (Stabilized in game 2 at 1 life and he couldn't find any way to get rid of Moat or draw any burn after going through lots of Brainstorm / Ponder. He shipped to 5 game 3, and his 2 goyf hand is cold to Runed Halo. I think this is a bad matchup for us)
Round 6: ID
T8: Win Rock 2-0 (Only spell he played game 1 was a SDT after Blood Moon turn 3 shut his entire deck down. MVP)

Combined 11-2-1 across the 2 tournaments, so can't complain. I'm pretty happy with my 75 and probably wouldn't change anything. Personal opinions:

- Lists that run more non-basics than mine seem really bad to nonbasic hate. This deck doesn't have to be vulnerable to it, so there's no reason to get greedy. I think this is why I hate Gaea's Touch, because you really want GW on turn 2. Serra's Sanctum is a crutch; it's a bonus if you're trying to go off the same turn with WoWar, but it's a lightning pole for Wasteland and is dead under Moon.
- Exploration is awful. I went from 2 Exploration / 1 Wild growth to 1/2 to 0/3. Making your 3CC spells come online on turn 2 is so good (Blood Moon, Choke, Presence, City of Solitude), or negating the tempo disadvantage from playing around daze if you can enchant a land turn 1. The only time Exploration comes out ahead in the early game is if you keep a 4 land / Exploration hand, which is pretty sketchy to begin with.
- The gameplan I like against any blue-control is to overload their countersuite with things they must counter. A resolved choke / blood moon / city of solitude / replenish usually puts you way ahead, and the only thing that really derails this plan is a very early CB / Top floating 3s and 4s.
- I give up on the combo matchup. If you expect combo in your metagame you probably shouldn't be piloting this deck.

[Otter]

Nice list: it gets to the point and doesn't try anything weird. A couple of small questions, though:

-Why three Ground Seal maindeck? I get that it cycles even in dead matchups, but with a pair of Enlightened Tutor and a set of Sterling Grove, doesn't it seem a bit excessive? I feel like I'd rather have two main and swap in the Runed Halo or the O-Ring from the board.

-In the "overload their counters" plan postboard, wouldn't a fourth Replenish be better than one of those Chokes or City of Solitudes? With all the tutor and draw we have, I feel like it shouldn't be hard to find a must-counter that turns Replenish into a better-than-must-counter.

-What exactly is the point of CoP: Red? I usually don't have that much trouble just getting Solitary online against red and it's hard to think of a situation where I'd want to tutor up CoP instead of just tutoring up Solitary or Grass. I guess if you have no Enchantress effect out so you can't get Solitary it could buy you some time. But with neither Enchantress nor Solitary in your grip, doesn't sound like it would be a hand worth keeping in the first place.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

How is that insane? The main thing you name with Iona is the removal color (with certain specific exceptions), which in many cases (including this case) happens to be White. And also happens to include most of the relevant creature control, the win-cons, and tutors. Since Words of War is pretty much a 1 of, its hard to find it without grove, on top of which you need at least 2 enchantress effects and a decent amount of mana (minimum- 6) and 2 green enchantments in hand to be able to kill Iona. Not really a solution.

Because the enchantress player *might* have their what, 1 or 2 removal spells?

If they name green they completely shut the deck down.

This is like playing against the people who try to counter your Confinements rather than your enchantresses; if you're losing consistently to that strategy, it's because your list is too slow, or you're unbelievably unlucky.


Okay, this works great in theory. I'm sorry, but it sounds like you have not played this matchup.

Let's assume the typical case: you don't have ground seal. Your turn 1 you accelerate, their turn 1 they entomb (or careful study, or ritual/buried alive). Your turn two you drop an enchantress, their turn 2 they bring back Iona and name white (yes, they absolutely will name white).

Now you are facing a 3 turn clock. A standard turn 3 here is to drop another enchantress, and then drop elephant grass. Their turn 3, they pay 2 and swing for 7. Maybe you got lucky and draw another elephant grass, draw 2 off of it and they are paying 4 to attack... but what now? Likely you have dead white enchantments in your hand, so your 'engine' is bad. You are relying on NOT drawing sterling grove (4), solitary confinement (2-3), karmic justice (1), sigil (1-2), oblivion ring (1), moat (1)... basically a third of your enchantments. And your proposed out is to lucksack into drawing words of war, to skip four draws to kill iona? Have you ever played this matchup? It doesn't work, because you won't even draw WoWar, likely one of your enchantresses met a counter, half of your hand is completely dead, and elephant grass sucks when the opponent is willing to pay.

I'm going to go ahead and say that maybe if you weren't running terrible cards like Moat, O. Ring, and Sigil, you'd be doing better in this matchup. Also, 4 Groves is overkill.

I'm not saying you'll always be able to race a turn 2 Iona on the draw, but you have to play the odds. If your curve is tight, you can pilot around a turn 2 fatty fairly consistently.

[Sevryn]

I'm going to go ahead and say that maybe if you weren't running terrible cards like Moat, O. Ring, and Sigil, you'd be doing better in this matchup.

Okay, I give up. Everyone else in this thread is running these cards. Apparently you're going to win this matchup because your opponent named green instead of white, and then you got to make horsies with sacred mesa which somehow is less terrible than sigil. Seriously, I'm done.

[AcidFiend]

Okay, I give up. Everyone else in this thread is running these cards. Apparently you're going to win this matchup because your opponent named green instead of white, and then you got to make horsies with sacred mesa which somehow is less terrible than sigil. Seriously, I'm done.

Lol I don't blame you man - I started a few replies myself but just discarded them. Not worth it!

[FieryBalrog]

Every single one of the past 15 or so top 8 Enchantress decks (and more before that, didn't bother to count every single one) have run O-ring and Sigil. And about 70% of them run Moat as well. Can we stop trolling please.

Sigil is the best win con for this deck, and O-ring gives the deck some sorely needed removal that doubles as part of the engine. Some decks run Journey to Nowhere, too. You should be running either Moat or Humility as at least a 1-of as a permanent answer to creatures until you can get a Solitary lock set up (IF you can get it set up). Otherwise, what, you're depending on Elephant Grass alone to keep your ass alive?

[thefreakaccident]

Because the enchantress player *might* have their what, 1 or 2 removal spells?

If they name green they completely shut the deck down.

This is like playing against the people who try to counter your Confinements rather than your enchantresses; if you're losing consistently to that strategy, it's because your list is too slow, or you're unbelievably unlucky.



I'm going to go ahead and say that maybe if you weren't running terrible cards like Moat, O. Ring, and Sigil, you'd be doing better in this matchup. Also, 4 Groves is overkill.

I'm not saying you'll always be able to race a turn 2 Iona on the draw, but you have to play the odds. If your curve is tight, you can pilot around a turn 2 fatty fairly consistently.

Fail

Also, from what I understand, 4 groves is amazing as it turns off grip for the most part, and allows tutorage to a deck that sorely needs it sometimes.

[Otter]

If your metagame is infested with Reanimator, play 4 maindeck Ground Seals and Lignifys with a set of Chrome Moxes to power them out ASAP. Otherwise, reworking the entire deck to deal with one situation presented by a tier two deck isn't interesting or useful. Now can we please just stop giving a damn about Iona? If they dump her face into play on turn two we probably lose. We also lose to ANT and Belcher, so it's one more underplayed deck that we can't beat, stop getting worked up about it.

[overseer1234]

If your metagame is infested with Reanimator, play 4 maindeck Ground Seals and Lignifys with a set of Chrome Moxes to power them out ASAP. Otherwise, reworking the entire deck to deal with one situation presented by a tier two deck isn't interesting or useful. Now can we please just stop giving a damn about Iona? If they dump her face into play on turn two we probably lose. We also lose to ANT and Belcher, so it's one more underplayed deck that we can't beat, stop getting worked up about it.


This.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Every single one of the past 15 or so top 8 Enchantress decks (and more before that, didn't bother to count every single one) have run O-ring and Sigil. And about 70% of them run Moat as well. Can we stop trolling please.

Sigil is the best win con for this deck, and O-ring gives the deck some sorely needed removal that doubles as part of the engine. Some decks run Journey to Nowhere, too. You should be running either Moat or Humility as at least a 1-of as a permanent answer to creatures until you can get a Solitary lock set up (IF you can get it set up). Otherwise, what, you're depending on Elephant Grass alone to keep your ass alive?

It's weird.

It's almost like there's an odd correlation between people playing boatloads of expensive secondary color enchantments in this deck, and the deck falling completely off the radar.

Huh.

What a weird coincidence.

freak - What a well thought out and constructive post.

Sevryn - If you had been paying attention, any list not lucky enough to have 1x O. Ring in their hand turn 2 loses when they name green. If anything, this is the problem that needs addressing.

[Meister_Kai]

It's weird.

It's almost like there's an odd correlation between people playing boatloads of expensive secondary color enchantments in this deck, and the deck falling completely off the radar.

Huh.

What a weird coincidence.

freak - What a well thought out and constructive post.

Sevryn - If you had been paying attention, any list not lucky enough to have 1x O. Ring in their hand turn 2 loses when they name green. If anything, this is the problem that needs addressing.

I've been keeping my mouth shut so far, as I really don't agree with naming white with stuff like Iona, but I do agree with using cards such as Moat. If you consider Moat so bad, what (if any) removal spells are you presently playing? Lignify? I'd really like to know. Also, I think its a little harsh to say that Enchantress has fallen off the map, as not only was it not really "on the map" much to begin with, but people are (as shown in this thread) placing well with builds that use Sigil, Moat, and Ring. People who play these cards are doing well (about as well as Enchantress can do), so how is your build doing? What is your build?

[Julian23]

2. Most deck lists are not focused. I am going to pull a percentage out of my ass and assume 80% of all Enchantress decks go for the "toolbox" approach. Enchantress does not control games (unless it plays Words of Wind) it just merely limits interaction; thus this thread is called "Solitaire". Solitary Confinement does not control games in a fashion that silver bullet ridden toolbox decks wish to do, but cards like Standstill control games. Every silver bullet you put in your deck dilutes your gameplan; to burn your opponent to death with WoW, or if your win is Sigil and your bullets costs decent mana, to overwhelm your opponent. Look at Spatula's list on page 64 of this thread, look at the cards used in the MD, it is designed to burn your opponent to death with WoW.


I went 5-3 with this list at the May 31st Binghampton tourney;

8x Enchantresses
4x Sprawl
4x Grass
4x Ground Seal
3x Sterling Grove
3x Replenish
2x Solitary Confinement
2x Exploration
2x Gaea's Touch
2x Kirtar's Desire
1x Words of War
1x Seal of Primordium
1x Aura of Silence
1x Sylvan Library
3x ESG
4x Heath
2x Sanctum
1x Taiga
3x Savannah
9x Forest

My SB was weak, except for the obligatory 2x Choke

I don't know if that' still his list but from what I know Spautla advocates a much more tempo-based list as you can see in his post from page 64. Recent enchantress lists (I've seen much more on deckcheck during the last 2 months than any time before) are much slower than his. This leads to my question: Is that due to lists like Spatula's not being played as much or are slower versions really that better? I honestly don't know.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

I've been keeping my mouth shut so far, as I really don't agree with naming white with stuff like Iona, but I do agree with using cards such as Moat. If you consider Moat so bad, what (if any) removal spells are you presently playing? Lignify? I'd really like to know. Also, I think its a little harsh to say that Enchantress has fallen off the map, as not only was it not really "on the map" much to begin with, but people are (as shown in this thread) placing well with builds that use Sigil, Moat, and Ring. People who play these cards are doing well (about as well as Enchantress can do), so how is your build doing? What is your build?

My timeline is a bit longer than most people's, specifically with reference to this deck.

Enchantress was, in my opinion, tier 1 at the time that it was basically just me and Jesse Hatfield playing it, back around the time the banned lists split and for about 6 months after.

It's pretty much been on a downward incline since then; once in a while someone does well with it, but considering that basically every tournament has at least 1 or 2 lists present, it's safe to say that the deck is tier 2.5 at best.

This is due to a couple related reasons;

A. They banned Replenish, which lead to
B. People taking the deck in a more controllish, less combo oriented direction. This sort of made sense without Replenish, since our options were pretty few at the time. It sort of didn't make sense, because at the time it was just a pretty bad deck choice.

Now that we have Replenish back, people continue to play the mediocre cards that were filling those slots, PLUS Replenish. This has led to an ungodly disgusting mana curve that just cripples the deck's explosive capabilities. In exchange, you get crappy control cards. Cards like Moat and O. Ring aren't played in tier 1 decks for a reason, they're slow and unreliable.

Lately I've been tinkering with Living Wish builds; I'd previously thought the card too slow, but this might be a good meta-game for it.

The Threats:
4x Enchantress' Presence
3x Argothian Enchantress
4x Living Wish
1x Sylvan Library
3x Sterling Grove
2x Replenish

The Accel:
4x Utopia Sprawl
1x Wild Growth
2x Exploration
3x Lotus Petal

D-Fense
3x Solitary Confinement
4x Elephant Grass

Other stuff
4x Ground Seal
1x Seal of Primordium
1x Aura of Silence
1x Words of War

Manabase:
4x Savannah
3x Misty Rainforest
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Windswept Heath
1x Taiga
1x Serra's Sanctum
8x Forest

SB:
2x Choke
Wish Targets
1x Squee
1x Argothian Enchantress
1x Serra's Sanctum
1x Wasteland
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1x Children of Korliss
1x Faerie Macabre
1x Jotun Grunt
1x Molder Slug
1x Mold Shambler
3x Baneslayer Angel


The wishlist is highly experimental at this stage;in addition to the obvious plays, the deck is capable of having a limited "Troll and Nail" strategy vs. control; you bring in fatties(Angels, Slug, Grunt, Shambler) and side out Confinements, Explorations and a couple Grasses.

[FieryBalrog]

It's weird.

It's almost like there's an odd correlation between people playing boatloads of expensive secondary color enchantments in this deck, and the deck falling completely off the radar.

Huh.

What a weird coincidence.


If by "fallen of the map" you mean "made a ton of top 8's recently considering how many people are playing this", I might agree. :rolleyes:

Enchantress is more on the radar in the past 4 months than it has been for something like 2 years. And I suspect its quite correlated with the fact that O-ring gives removal and Sigil is a fantastic win-con that doesn't require you to be fully online and winning.


My timeline is a bit longer than most people's, specifically with reference to this deck.

Enchantress was, in my opinion, tier 1 at the time that it was basically just me and Jesse Hatfield playing it

The deck was Tier 1 when a tiny minority of people were playing it. Makes sense. :confused: I suspect your definition of "Tier 1" is rather... odd.


but considering that basically every tournament has at least 1 or 2 lists present, it's safe to say that the deck is tier 2.5 at best.

In what Bizarro World does "basically every tournament" have 1 or 2 Enchantress?

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

If by "fallen of the map" you mean "made a ton of top 8's recently considering how many people are playing this", I might agree. :rolleyes:

"A ton".

Really? Are you prepared to defend your hyperbole or do you want to revise?


Enchantress is more on the radar in the past 4 months than it has been for something like 2 years. And I suspect its quite correlated with the fact that O-ring gives removal and Sigil is a fantastic win-con that doesn't require you to be fully online and winning.

A) That's not true. It's AS on the radar as it's been in the past 2 years, which is, not at all. Except perhaps in the minds of a few.

B) O. Ring has been out for more than 2 years.



The deck was Tier 1 when a tiny minority of people were playing it. Makes sense. :confused: I suspect your definition of "Tier 1" is rather... odd.

You learned your sarcasm skills from Hot Topic t-shirts, didn't you?

Tiers aren't a function of popularity, they're a function of tournament success and power.


In what Bizarro World does "basically every tournament" have 1 or 2 Enchantress?

In the one where virtually every tournament you can find with a metagame breakdown has at least one enchantress list. Probably as a consequence of the cards in the deck being kind of narrow.

There are enough people playing it that if the lists being played were any good, they'd have caught on/started doing better/both.

Since the current lists are neither successful nor popular, it puts people defending these lists in a fairly tough spot.

[Julian23]

Let's break this stall by providing some numbers. It's up to you to interpret them.

# of Enchtress making Top8 during the last month according to deckcheck.net:


January: 1
February: 4
March: 6
April: 4
May: 1
June: 3
July: 5
August: 4
September: 4
October: 9
November: 5

[Meister_Kai]

Let's break this stall by providing some numbers. It's up to you to interpret them.

# of Enchtress making Top8 during the last month according to deckcheck.net:


January: 1
February: 4
March: 6
April: 4
May: 1
June: 3
July: 5
August: 4
September: 4
October: 9
November: 5

To get the full picture, we would also need the numbers of how many tournaments Enchantress was played in vs. how many top 8's it got. That would require Stephen M. level work and while I'm not up to it, hopefully someone is.

EDIT: While we are all on-board with posting decklists, I'll go ahead and post what I've been using to some success at my local 10-18 person tournies:

4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Elephant Grass
4 Ground Seal
4 Utopia Sprawl
3 Solitary Confinement
3 Sterling Grove
3 Replenish
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
2 Exploration
2 Gaea's Touch
2 Lignify
1 Sylvan Library
1 Words of War
10 Forest
4 Windswept Heath
2 Serra's Sanctum
2 Savanna
1 Taiga
1 Horizon Canopy

SB: Largely depends, but staples have been:
x3 Choke
x3 Sphere of Law
x2 Seal of Primordium

I still go back and forth from Lignify and Oblivion Ring, the 3rd Confinement and Moat. However, I now believe that you want to use the least amount of secondary color cards possible. It really helps your consistency.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

I also am not really planning on dragging up the data. I think most people would agree that Enchantress is NOT a serious consideration for anybody's testing gauntlet. I don't say that happily, but it is what it is.

That said, I do rather like Lignify; A) It's green, B) It's only two mana. In my non-Wish list it's one of the top contenders for my two open slots.

[Hoojo]

Let's break this stall by providing some numbers. It's up to you to interpret them.

# of Enchtress making Top8 during the last month according to deckcheck.net:


January: 1
February: 4
March: 6
April: 4
May: 1
June: 3
July: 5
August: 4
September: 4
October: 9
November: 5

I would also think you'd need to compare these results with other decks like Thresh and the like to see how popular it truly is.

I think a lot of people try to make Enchantress a control deck, which it doesn't do as efficiently as other control decks. Its core is a combo; the more cards and focus put on executing the combo quickly the more successful the deck will be.

[Julian23]

I would also think you'd need to compare these results with other decks like Thresh and the like to see how popular it truly is.

I think a lot of people try to make Enchantress a control deck, which it doesn't do as efficiently as other control decks. Its core is a combo; the more cards and focus put on executing the combo quickly the more successful the deck will be.

At first I tried providing numbers for other decks because you will need comparison. Once I looked up some of them I realized it wouldnt be worth the work as the numbers are much larger..

[FieryBalrog]

You learned your sarcasm skills from Hot Topic t-shirts, didn't you?
:laugh: You got me!



Tiers aren't a function of popularity, they're a function of tournament success and power.

No, its both. And pardon me if I take your claims with a grain of salt... about how the deck was really tier 1 when it was your pet child, and now that standard deck lists do something else, its started to suck. Even though apparently quality and Tier status has nothing to do with popularity, so I'm not sure how you measured it and declared that it sucks in its current incarnation. What criteria are you using? Care to clarify that one?



In the one where virtually every tournament you can find with a metagame breakdown has at least one enchantress list. Probably as a consequence of the cards in the deck being kind of narrow.

I was definitely exaggerating for effect when I said "a ton", and I think you'll find you're doing the same here. Every tournament has 1-2 Enchantress decks, right :laugh:

Also you have this weird idea that the deck is popular enough to be in every tournament (that makes for quite a popular deck) and then you say its neither popular nor successful. Back to the drawing board...


Let's break this stall by providing some numbers. It's up to you to interpret them.

# of Enchtress making Top8 during the last month according to deckcheck.net:


January: 1
February: 4
March: 6
April: 4
May: 1
June: 3
July: 5
August: 4
September: 4
October: 9
November: 5

There 2 missing from the recent months (these 2 were not listed because they didn't share the decklists).
http://www.deckcheck.net/event.php?event=Alifromcairo+Trophy
^That event.

I would say that's not bad at all considering I hardly see the deck represented in terms of players.

[Meister_Kai]

@Balrog: You are right on some aspects, but wrong on others. While it is true that tiers (according to this sites DTB philosophy) are a function of both popularity and power, just because deck is popular doesn't mean its necessarily good. For instance, Bloodghast dredge sucks, but people are buying Undiscovered Paradise like it was gold.

Also, around the time this was Spatula's "pet" deck, the deck was tier one. Think about it, the other decks that were considered "tier one" were mono red goblins, angel stompy, and other similar decks. Enchantress eats decks like those alive. There really wasn't much combo to keep the deck down. It's bane was anything that ran a lot of black disruption, something thats not insurmountable to get around.

As for popularity today, you have to remember, Legacy isn't Standard, there are more than 4 viable decks. There is a good chance that in any given 20 person Legacy tournament there is a good chance there will be up to 10 completely different archetypes represented. A lot of legacy's decks are popular, which is why I emphasized how important the quality part of tier one status is, which Enchantress is sadly not anymore.

As for a more combo build (as I and Spatula, perhaps others go for) vs a more control-ish build (that you and others obviously support) all I have to say is that it appears what people are attempting to do is make Enchantress into a deck that resembles a worse Landstill with a slightly better or worse clock. Your deck is not designed to support WoW at all (when you are going for the kill, you don't want to be drawing multiple 2W etc enchantments), instead going for Sigil. If your goal is just laying down the control then eventually going for Sigil, why even bother using the Enchantress engine? Wouldn't you rather be playing cards like brainstorm and Words of Wind to bounce enchantments to get more angels? Perhaps this is a good deck idea, Landstill with Sigil that is.

In conclusion, Enchantress is a combo deck inherently. Spatula is right when he says people changed the deck once Replenish was banned out of necessity, and that they have yet to change back. I believe what most people consider Enchantress today to be a bad version of Landstill. Just because a deck is popular doesn't mean it deserves tier one status.

[Demoniaki]

Hi folks!

It's my first post here, I'm brazilian so plz forgive my bad english!!

I agree that Enchantress is not a tier1 deck and it fails in being a combo or control deck, but i still loving this deck and I've been making some good results with it (2nd in a 36 man tournament, only losing to ANT, and 3rd in a 42 man tournament, losing to 2 Countertop Bant (mulligan to 5 all the matches =/))

This is the list I'm running:

4xArgothian Enchantress

4xEnchantress Presence
1xMoat
3xElephant Grass
3xSolitary Confinement
1xGround Seal
1xAura of Silence
1xKarmic Justice
3xOblivion Ring
3xSigil of The Empty Throne
2xGaea's Touch
4xUtopia Sprawl
3xWild Growth
3xSterling Grove

2xEnlightened Tutor
2xReplenish

4xWindswepth Heath
2xSerra's Sanctum
1xTree of Tales
1xHorizon Canopy
2xSavannah
XxForest/Plains

SB
2xSacred Ground
2xRuned Halo
2xCity of Solitude
3xChoke
1xWheel of Sun and Moon
1xBood Moon
1xKarmic Justice
2x Seal of Primordium
1xReplenish


I'm not feeling OK about this SB... what would you guys suggest to use against Countertop? I thought about Multani's Presence, but I'm not sure about it...
And how to sideboard against it? I never know what goes out =/

Tks for the help!!!

[Julian23]

I'd definitely cut them Enlightened Tutors for anything against counterbalance (well, I'd actually cut them at all.). Even if you get it let's say turn 1 this means you wont be able to play whatever anti-tech (which usually costs 3) you fetched on turn 2 because you're missing the turn 1 acceleration. Once CB comes down Enlightened Tutor becomes even worse so it would be the first card I'd switch for some Cities of Solitude.

Besides that, get rid of that Artifact land. Especially with Gaea's Touch you want to maximize on the Forest you play. Judging from my experience, although Enchantress usually got a manabase less vulnerable to Wasteland and friends having nonbasics in your starting 7 can lose you games. Sometimes you're forced to go Turn 1 Savannah, Utopia Sprawl but whenever I do that it really causes me a lot of headaches. Usually only playing about 20 lands and depending on your tempo/acceleration a single Wasteland can set you behind real hard.

Regarding the sideboard I guess it won't get any better than Choke/City of Solitude with an additional copy of Replenish. If you're REALLY worried about cb you might try Krosan Grip but I can't provide any information on how that works out. I recently toyed around with Guttural Response, because it provides a certain element of surprise while usually avoiding Daze. And because I got a foil playset. Actually its meant to defend an Enchantress from Force of Will which would be hilarious.

[GrimJack]

Last night as an experiment vs. Countertop I sided 2 Choke, +1 City of Solitude and +2 Runed Halo (naming Goyf, Predator & Progentitus), and -4 Elephant Grass, -1 Holistic Wisdom. (MD already contains 1x each Aura of Silence, City & Halo).

I was hesitant at first, but I wanted to see how the runed halos would work to shut down big threats compared to SBing Seals for disenchanting the counterbalances. I was quite pleased and went 3-0 after this SB, and was able to bait out counters with the Chokes instead of the Enchantress effects. When the Goyfs hit, the Halo kept me going without the upkeep cost. All in all, Im pleased so far with 1x MD Runed Halo, in addition to the 3x Solitary Confinement.

But back to the point 2x City, 2x Choke was enought to keep Counterbalance down.

[Gibbie_X]

@GrimJack - If you are afraid of Progenitus, for the love of god don't take out Elephant Grass. I stops him cold, and I mean COLD.

@Julian23 - I've been running 1 Tutor, and for me it's a gold mine. With Grove a good Stifle target, a Tutor helps you out so you can keep the Grove as protection. It can also lure out a FoW, leaving you for a drop if you have it.

As for Sigil, I agree that is it the card that pushed Enchantress higher on the watchlist, and I'm glad to see no one talk about Ascension, that card is horrible.

Naming white is the most likely choice, I feel, for Iona's ability. We can hide behind a confinement for a little while, and killing Replenish is a kick in the junk.

[GrimJack]

God no, Im not afraid of Progentitus at all. lol! I just happened to name it in one of the games after I already had everything locked in. But yes, Elephant Grass stops it cold for Game 1. PS: Heres my current decklist for refernce.

60 Legacy Enchantress
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Sterling Grove

4 Elephant Grass
4 Utopia Sprawl
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Solitary Confinement
2 Replenish
2 Wild Growth
1 Aura of Silence
1 City of Solitude
1 Holistic Wisdom
1 Mirri's Guile
1 Moat
1 Runed Halo

1 Sacred Mesa
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 Words of War

7 Forest
4 Plains
3 Windswept Heath
3 Savannah
2 Serra's Sanctum
1 Taiga
1 Wooded Foothills

15 Sideboard
3 Wheel of Sun and Moon
2 Choke
2 Circle of Protection: Red
2 Runed Halo
1 Blood Moon
1 City of Solitude
1 Karmic Justice
1 Sacred Ground
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Seal of Primordium

[anonymos]

Depending on the build they run for countertop, blood moon works decently well also. I know a guy here that runs exactly two basic lands in his countertop deck. I love resolving a blood moon against him.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

@ Balrog - You can't cut out adverb. I said "virtually" every tournament has 1 or 2 enchantress players. I've noted this over time, because when I see meta-game breakdowns, I'm specifically looking for enchantress lists.

I've also explained why I think that it, and it's also one of the factors inherently limiting the deck's popularity; the majority of cards in the deck are only played in Enchantress. With the exception of the mana base(besides Serra's Sanctum), the only card that really sees any other play is Exploration.

But yet it's fairly expensive, because Enchantress is popular with the casual crowd as well. So generally the same people play Enchantress every tournament and no one else does.

My tier status is pretty standard; decks that win consistently are higher tier. This isn't a function of popularity, although popularity can certainly inflate the perception of the deck.


And I agree with Kei; if you insist on running 10+ expensive silver bullet defense cards, just play Landstill and be done with it.

[azurefalcon]

Alright guys I have been reading around The Source for years, and have played Enchantress for close to a year and a half. I play down in Atlanta, Ga so if you play there then you sure as heck know who I am. I am finally going to do a tournament report after forever.

Last night we had a 33 man Tournament and I managed to Top 4 (seems like a good tournament report.)

Alright, list first

4x Argothian Enchantress
4x Enchantress Presence

3x Solitary Confinement
3x Sterling Grove
2x Primordial Seal
1x Aura of Silence
2x Moat
4x Elephant Grass
1x O Ring
2x Kirtar's Desire
4x Utopia Sprawl
2x Exploration
2x Ground Seal
1x Sacred Ground
1x Words of War
1x Sigil of the Empty Throne

2x Replenish

4x Windswept Heath
2x Serra's Sanctum
3x Plains
4x Savannah
1x Taiga
7x Forest

SB
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon
3x Karmic Justice
3x Choke
1x Sacred Ground
2x Runed Halo
2x Circle of Protection Red
1x Replenish
1x O Ring
1x Seal of Cleansing

Pretty much a stock list, except mine goes for ridiculous creature control with 2 Moats and 2 Kirtar's Desires (these things rock) and a better game against CB by having 3 anti enchantment hate MB.

Alright 5 rounds let's go. Also if you are on the source and played me I do not know your name so let me know.

Round 1 (G/B/W Rock)

Game one was one of the best games of Magic I have played in ages. I get down a turn 2 Argothian but he proceeds to Hymn 2 lands out of my hand and Vindicates my first 2. He drops a confidant and starts beating me for 2 and taking damage himself. I finally get myself back to to 3 lands after dropping two more Argothian and then drop an Elephant Grass and hide for multiple turns. Pretty soon he Pulses it and still don't have confinement for some reason and I have to throw one of my Argothian in front of a Tarmgoyf which puts me at one life. Finally get a confinement and a Sterling Grove in my hand. By this time I have not drawn a WoW or Replenish and there were 8 cards left in my library. I have 3 Enchantress effects in play, and I make the following plays: Seal of Primordium Draw 3 (5 cards left) blow up my Enchantress Presence, play Sterling grove Draw 2 (3 cards left) sac Sterling put WoW on top and pass the turn. He draws and passes (confidant has gotten him down to single digit numbers). I let Solitary Confinement die and draw WoW play it Draw 2 (0 cards in library). I try to kill him but he swords his tarmogoyf and survives. That leaves him with nothing and he passes the turn. I replace my draw step with 2 damage to him play a Utopia Sprawl and finish the last 4 damage to him. Ridiculous.

Game 2
I keep a weak hand and he once again vindicates both of my lands. Time gets called with a me having a total of 0 permants in play and him having 3 dark confidants. Probably not going to have won that game but he could not kill me in the alloted time.

Round 2 (G/B/W Rock again)

I get nuts hands against him both round with turn 4 confinement lock game one and game 2 sees a confinement lock with 2 grove afterwords he gave both games before I even had time to kill him.

Round 3 Zoo
Game one
Kirtar's Desire Kittie, Elephant Grass to slowdown, Enchantress Effect, Moat, confinement lock soon afterward.

Game 2
He goes regular zoo stuff with a removal spell for my disruption and rips me a new one.

Game 3
I get down plenty of disruption and he can't get enough damage through (admitedly had had a pretty slow hand) and I get multiple pieces with sterling grove protection. Get a win.

Round 4 ID
Pretty nice as I would have been playing against ANT/Doomsday and by playing I mean losing.

Round 5 (Reanimator) whienot on the source
I get paired down but even if I lose I still get Top 8, and if I lose I calculate that I get to play Merfolk in the top 8 so even if I win, I would have probably lost on purpose. Needless to say I lost legitly.

Game 1
Turn 3 Iona naming white. Pretty Clever.

Game 2
He goes for turn 1 Empryial Archangel, I get turn 2 Wheel of Sun and Moon, and get a confinement lock. He mystical tutors with me at 4 life and reverent silences me and takes me to 3 life. I rip Replenish like a champ and he concedes.

Game 3 he gets turn 2 Iona. Hilarious.

Top 8 8th seed I get to play agianst 1st seed (merfolk) woohoo

I pretty much cannot lose to Merfolk unless they get the God draw and I stumble on mana.

Game one he draws half his deck and does not see a Force of Will and I play around Daze and a Moat comes down unimpeded, gg friend.

Game 2

He dazes a Turn 1 Utopia Sprawl, and he is one one land with Aether vial. I eventually let him get down a couple of guys I get an enchantress effect, drop an elephant grass, gets annuled, drop a second one and hide for a little while. Eventually get Moat and a confinement and a Replenish. Proceed to annihilate and he concedes.

In summery, pretty lucky matchups tonight. Rocks are usually 50/50 matchups for me, but lately people have been not getting Deeds against me, and apparently they are starting to put in Gatekeepers of Malakir which is really bad for us. It makes me sad that Enchantress keeps getting worse and worse matchups without getting anything in return. Also Kirtar's Desire is absolutly amazing. I originally put them in to screw over dreadnought in case they tried to EE away anything, and they are just really good anti aggro, and anti Trygon Predator weapons.

Just about it. Not sure if Exploration is better than wild growth but I am to afraid of rishidan port to mess with it in the goblin matchup.

Also with the Reanimator this is very bad matchup if they get Iona on white, you just scoop.

[Meister_Kai]

I was doing more thinking on the Iona colour calling debate last night, and I have come to the conclusion that when played turn one, white is definitely not the color you want to be naming. Think about it this way:

Your opponent is an awesome luck sack and not only plays first, but drops the Iona, naming green. Your turn, you draw and play....nothing (or your 1-2 copies of Kirtar's Desire, if you play that). Turn two you play..... nothing. How do you support a confinement in this instance? You don't. Moat does nothing here as nearly all of reanimator's creatures fly. The only card worth mentioning here is Oblivion Ring, which not only costs 3 to play (you're already down to 6 life) but you probably only run 1-2 maindeck, which is not something that is reliable obviously. Not even this will work if they play Force (sandbagging in until you play ring) and there is no way you will be able to use Sigil to save you, let alone live to play it. Besides, even if you do somehow stave off Iona, you will still have to win before they manage to hit you just one more time!

If they name white, you still have somewhat of a hope of burning it with WoW (unlikely I know), maiming it with Lignify (I really like this card), or stalling with Elephant Grasses (not a good plan either).

In short, this deck probably just loses to turn 1 Iona anyway, but I think that green is by far the right color to choose. With only being able to play what, maybe 10 cards in the whole deck when green is chosen, with most of those cards being completely dead, green is the better color to choose.

[FieryBalrog]

After reading your post and all your quite sensible reasons (which I agree with) I have no idea how you came to the conclusion that naming Green is correct. You pretty much state flat out that naming Green gives you a bunch of outs (O-Ring; 3 mana is hard. Moat, unlikely, but is possible. Kirtar's Desire in this case, or more likely, Journey to Nowhere). Naming white gives you basically NO outs unless you run Lignify (and why would you, except for this niche case... Journey to Nowhere is superior in every way)

[Bigface]

Naming Green with Iona = No enchantress effects, nor enchantments to be played on lands for mana.

[Meister_Kai]

After reading your post and all your quite sensible reasons (which I agree with) I have no idea how you came to the conclusion that naming Green is correct. You pretty much state flat out that naming Green gives you a bunch of outs (O-Ring; 3 mana is hard. Moat, unlikely, but is possible. Kirtar's Desire in this case, or more likely, Journey to Nowhere). Naming white gives you basically NO outs unless you run Lignify (and why would you, except for this niche case... Journey to Nowhere is superior in every way)

Moat is not an out at all, the only creature I can think of that reanimator might run that doesn't have flying is Inkwell Leviathan, which you can race with conventional means. The only cards that can save you in this instance are Kirtar's desire, O-ring, and Journey to Nowhere. Nobody runs all three of these, and most people only run up to two of one. All three are dependent that you draw a land that can produce a secondary color that isn't Serra's Sanctum.

Also, Journey to Nowhere is not superior in every way to Lignify because Journey to Nowhere isn't green. The only instances I can think of where Lignify would be strictly worse is when someone has a Doran in play, or they equip it. However, we have good game against anything that uses equipments anyway.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

None of those are outs except O. Ring.

Edit: Also, Lignify is superior because it's in green, which is the primary color, and running fewer cards in secondary and tertiary colors increases consistency, especially in a deck running enchant lands, which open you up to Wasteland to a degree that others decks don't have to worry about.

[grahf]

For what it's worth... in reading tournament reports of Enchantress vs. Reanimator and vice versa, white has always been the color named with Iona. Whether that's the correct choice or not is another matter; I don't know, I've never played the matchup.

[overseer1234]

Whether that's the correct choice or not is another matter; I don't know, I've never played the matchup.

Don't bother testing.. The deck is hardly played enough to be worry'd about, is worse than ichorid and dies to the same hate+spotremoval, so i would just say that we wait it out, the deck's trend wil die out and this entire discusion wil be looked at as "USELESS".

[Gibbie_X]

I have a theory about a sb slot, hear me out.

I played against a random on MWS, and he had Vial Goblins. I guess I hadn't checked up, and I knew Instigator was possible, and I have seen the speed first hand, but the power was quite insane. Then the SB tech of Thorns of Amethyst, I was not going anywhere.

So after that trouncing I took a good long look at it and field stripped, so to speak. Aggro is starting to make a stand, and they are out for blood.

What do you think of Planar Collapse? It has its advantages over Drop of Honey/Porphyry Nodes as it doesn't nuke your Argothian first, then maybe a second, then something they may have. One at a time seems slow in this format now.

[Meister_Kai]

I have a theory about a sb slot, hear me out.

I played against a random on MWS, and he had Vial Goblins. I guess I hadn't checked up, and I knew Instigator was possible, and I have seen the speed first hand, but the power was quite insane. Then the SB tech of Thorns of Amethyst, I was not going anywhere.

So after that trouncing I took a good long look at it and field stripped, so to speak. Aggro is starting to make a stand, and they are out for blood.

What do you think of Planar Collapse? It has its advantages over Drop of Honey/Porphyry Nodes as it doesn't nuke your Argothian first, then maybe a second, then something they may have. One at a time seems slow in this format now.

It strikes me as a one trick pony; once you play it once to its full effect, they just sandbag a matron or in even worse case, ringleader, and dominate you the turn after void. If something as basic as goblins is still winning through x number of grasses, confinements, moats, lignifies, kirtars desire-s, ghostly prisons, sphere of law, or COP:red, then something is seriously wrong.

On another note, I playtested about 20 games vs Zoo tonight; 10 preboard and 10 postboard. I won 6/10 preboard, but then only won 4/10 postboard (hilariously enough). Kgrip and pridgemage together are just a little too brutal I believe. For instance, there was one instance where I had one Enchantress in play, I was at 8, and my opponent had nothing but a 2/3 kird ape. I figured at worse he could hit me for 2, and then would have to have either a bolt and a fireblast or just two bolts. I had no enchantments in play (he pridemaged my confinement then griped a presence) and I had the choice of playing either a grove or a sphere of law. I played the grove (in hindsight not the right move) and died next turn to ape+fireblast+bolt.

Lignify helped a lot, however as with most cards like it, you often have a headache trying to figure out what to use it on; do you play it on the pridgemage or the Gofy they have in play? I've seen people turn 4 grip their lig'ed pridemage, then attack, then post combat destroy a presence. I think the real problem that this deck has is that it takes at least 2-3 turns to really get going, when most decks have a goldfish (that often takes into account disruption) of turns 5-6. This deck, controllish version or not is just too slow.

I think that the entire purpose of the deck is outdated. This deck is almost entirely reactive. This deck presents no threats. This deck doesn't know if it wants to be a control deck or combo deck. It is neither a good combo deck or control deck. If you try to make it more combo, the control becomes worse and vice versa. The deck is almost the definition of midrange, and midrange just doesn't cut it nowadays.

However, this just isn't post testing blues speaking, I came to these conclusions earlier this year in a large post I posted a few pages back. The reason I continue to play this deck is that I have fun playing it, if I want to win i'll play my dredge or something. I honestly don't know how people win tournaments with Enchantress anymore. I would like to see the match-up analysis of winning decklists. I usually give credit where credit is due but I believe that if you were to get a really good testing gauntlet filled with legacies best decks at the moment and try to roll with enchantress, you would get dominated.

[Otter]

I have a theory about a sb slot, hear me out.

I played against a random on MWS, and he had Vial Goblins. I guess I hadn't checked up, and I knew Instigator was possible, and I have seen the speed first hand, but the power was quite insane. Then the SB tech of Thorns of Amethyst, I was not going anywhere.

So after that trouncing I took a good long look at it and field stripped, so to speak. Aggro is starting to make a stand, and they are out for blood.

I'm a little bit confused about how you lose to goblins, other than random games where they Waste/Port you to death. The monored version is the most popular and they have practically no outs to Elephant Grass. The card is absolutely insane against them, it buys you so many turns to go do whatever you want. I'd rather play against Goblins than practically any other matchup.


On another note, I playtested about 20 games vs Zoo tonight; 10 preboard and 10 postboard. I won 6/10 preboard, but then only won 4/10 postboard (hilariously enough). Kgrip and pridgemage together are just a little too brutal I believe. For instance, there was one instance where I had one Enchantress in play, I was at 8, and my opponent had nothing but a 2/3 kird ape. I figured at worse he could hit me for 2, and then would have to have either a bolt and a fireblast or just two bolts. I had no enchantments in play (he pridemaged my confinement then griped a presence) and I had the choice of playing either a grove or a sphere of law. I played the grove (in hindsight not the right move) and died next turn to ape+fireblast+bolt

I agree that this matchup is frustratingly difficult, Pridemage is so good for them. Oddly enough, I've found that one of my favorite cards here is actually Grove. It can waste a good bit of their time and (provided that you don't die in the meantime) it keeps them off what matters. Definitely the matchup that I've liked Grove the most in. Not that it's ever terrible, but clearly some decks care less about the shroud than others.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Against Zoo post-sb, have you considered the fatty option? With (presumably) their Paths to Exile now out, they'll have a hell of a hard time answering a Baneslayer Angel. That should buy you a lot of time.

[Gibbie_X]

I had played a Zoo deck prior to the Vial Goblins, and I smoked it. Against Goblins I saw only one grass first game, none the next. Actually it wasn't Zoo, but they had 4 Pridemages first hand. Who draws that shit?

I was in a local tournament, the only lose was to an Extended version of Zoo, and still won the Tourney.

[Sevryn]

I have been testing my deck against the random-ass MWS meta. So far, it appears that Merfolk is an auto-lose; does this match other peoples' experience?

-Elephant grass barely hurts them because they can vial, and multiple lords kill fast even if only one fish is swinging
-Nothin to do about standstill except break it
-Fast clock combined with FoW on enchantress is brutal
-Choke doesn't come down fast enough to matter post-board, and does nothing if they have vial.

Any advice for this matchup?

[Nonex]

Enchantress should rape Merfolk most of the time. Your auras neutralize their Dazes, then any Enchantress will make your spells cantrip while theirs won't, City of Solitude neutralizes their FoW and Vials, Oblivion Ring on any lord is a pain, Moat is literally auto-win, Sigil of the Empty Throne is a must-counter, etc. Of course Merfolk can draw a god hand and drop lords while chaining Standstills and countering everything you cast, but the general rule is that you have too many bombs.

[Julian23]

I recently discovered some odd tech on an Enchantress list I never really considered: Vexing Shusher!

What do you think about it? I guess the plan is to have one copy in the board to bring it in against decks like Landstill or anything revolving about countering your win conditions. You drop it and without passing priority put Replenish on the stack. It's a HUGE surprise effect. I haven't tested it yet and I don't believe I will do that to a large extend but this single cards seems promising in the Control-matchup.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I have been testing my deck against the random-ass MWS meta. So far, it appears that Merfolk is an auto-lose; does this match other peoples' experience?

-Elephant grass barely hurts them because they can vial, and multiple lords kill fast even if only one fish is swinging
-Nothin to do about standstill except break it
-Fast clock combined with FoW on enchantress is brutal
-Choke doesn't come down fast enough to matter post-board, and does nothing if they have vial.

Any advice for this matchup?

I laughed out loud at this. You just shouldn't lose to Merfolk ever unless the draw the double bounce or double Disenchant for your Sterling Grove and your Confinement/Moat/whatever other maindeck enchantment that messes them up. The only chance they have against you is if they draw the nuts and you draw bad. I used to play Enchantress for a short time and a buddy has played it for over a year and never lost a round of sanctioned magic to Merfolk.

Plus Choke and City of Solitude mess them up worse.

Edit: Even if they draw the double bounce or removal, they still have to deal with whatever else you have in play, and if you play smart, you can take some damage then tutor up another Moat/Confinement or WoW and just end the game.

[Otter]

Agreed, Merfolk really only has four relevant cards in the matchup, their Forces. Either they burn one on your Enchantress effect and then scoop to Replenish, or they let Enchantress hit play and then you bury them under an avalanche of CA. Just don't keep a mana-light hand and walk into a bunch of Dazes or something stupid like that.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

I have been testing my deck against the random-ass MWS meta. So far, it appears that Merfolk is an auto-lose; does this match other peoples' experience?

-Elephant grass barely hurts them because they can vial, and multiple lords kill fast even if only one fish is swinging
-Nothin to do about standstill except break it
-Fast clock combined with FoW on enchantress is brutal
-Choke doesn't come down fast enough to matter post-board, and does nothing if they have vial.

Any advice for this matchup?

What's your list?

My advice about Standstill is just break it with whatever you've got, right away. They only have the 4 hard counters to draw off of it, and you have more than 4 threats. And if they do get the FoW, they're losing 2 good cards to the 3 they drew, which barely puts them up at all.

[Sevryn]

What's your list?

My advice about Standstill is just break it with whatever you've got, right away. They only have the 4 hard counters to draw off of it, and you have more than 4 threats. And if they do get the FoW, they're losing 2 good cards to the 3 they drew, which barely puts them up at all.

// Lands
1 [B] Taiga
2 [US] Serra's Sanctum
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [9E] Plains (1)
10 [SHM] Forest (1)

// Creatures
4 [US] Argothian Enchantress

// Spells
4 [ON] Enchantress's Presence
4 Wild Growth
4 [DIS] Utopia Sprawl
4 [VI] Elephant Grass
4 [JU] Solitary Confinement
3 [IN] Sterling Grove
2 [UD] Replenish
2 [OD] Ground Seal
2 [TE] Mirri's Guile
1 [IN] Elfhame Sanctuary
1 [PLC] Seal of Primordium
1 [CFX] Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 [ON] Words of War
1 [ALA] Oblivion Ring

1 [MI] Enlightened Tutor

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [UD] Replenish
SB: 2 [OD] Karmic Justice
SB: 2 [VI] City of Solitude
SB: 1 [DIS] Dovescape
SB: 2 [8E] Sacred Ground
SB: 2 [8E] Choke
SB: 2 [10E] Aura of Silence
SB: 1 [8E] Blood Moon
SB: 2 [SHM] Wheel of Sun and Moon

The most obvious missing piece here is moat, and this is due to cost reasons; I just can't afford to dump $100+ on a card that won't see play in any other deck. The other feature besides the choice of one-ofs is 4x Solitary Confinement... I like minimizing the chance that I have to tutor for it and don't really care if I draw more than one of them. It's not like the extra Solitary could have been an enchantress; I'm already running 4 of each.

Re. Standstill: yes, I tend to just run through them immediately because there isn't anything else I can do, aside from having Enlightened Tutor in hand and getting them to over 7 cards in their end-step. Since it is a one-of, I either have it or I don't and I just get on with it.

TBH, the biggest problem I have is when I keep a hand that is awesome if my turn 2 enchantress doesn't get countered, and they have the Force of Will. Granted, this is a ~40% event (if you ignore Daze, which is being kind), but it's very debilitating against a deck with such a fast clock. Yes, I will eventually out-draw them, but having my draw engine's first piece countered when I have 2-3 more draw steps before dying is placing a lot of strain on my top-decks.

The games where they don't have FoW go much better, but calling it an autowin seems to be over-confident.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Ok, well, first of all, get rid of Elfhame Sanctuary.

Secondly, ESG is pretty saucy vs. Daze.

Thirdly, replace that Confinement and the Sanctuary with 2 extra Ground Seals.

Last, I would run a third Replenish. Probably in place of the Sigil.

[Sevryn]

Ok, well, first of all, get rid of Elfhame Sanctuary.

Secondly, ESG is pretty saucy vs. Daze.

Thirdly, replace that Confinement and the Sanctuary with 2 extra Ground Seals.

Last, I would run a third Replenish. Probably in place of the Sigil.

1. Elfhame finds a land to pitch every turn to confinement while thinning your deck every single turn, making your topdecks better. It allows confinement to be dropped with only one enchantress out with a lot more confidence. You may be right of course, but this is the logic for running it. I will test without it

2. ESG - I have considered it before. It's good acceleration, and allows the otherwise impossible turn one argothian. Daze protection is a great benefit as well. I may test it - how many would you run? And what would you cut for them?

3. More draw is good, I will try to squeeze in the full set of ground seals.

4. I run the third Replenish in the sideboard. Some matchups it is just not very useful, and I don't like having 3 dead non-enchantments in my MD. I think it got replaced by Enlightened Tutor, which is always useful when drawn, and just trades off not being an enchantment for tutoring for a third the cost of sterling grove. I like running exactly one.


EDIT: and no I am not cutting Sigil. I do not understand your hatred for this card (throughout this thread). It is MUCH better than WoWar when you have fewer enchantresses out. It dodges counterbalance. It blocks. It doesn't take additional mana investment once it is in play, but just rewards you for how many enchantments are in your deck. I'm not advocating cutting WoWar either, it's a fine win condition, but it is rarely useful outside of winning... maybe killing a Bob every now and then. Sigil is fuckin' awesome, I would never cut it. I would take the suggestion to run more of them before running none of them.

EDIT2:
changes I am testing now:
-1 enlightened tutor
-1 elfhame sanctuary
-1 wild growth
-1 solitary confinement
+1 ground seal
+3 elvish spirit guide

And as a last aside, for your own testing I would recommend trying out 1-2 mirri's guile. I could cut one for the fourth ground seal, but Mirri's Guile is brutal. It comes down turn one if you want it to, it makes all of your draws better, it works under confinement, and it has synergy with fetchlands. It's great, heartily suggest trying it.

[Gibbie_X]

I like the Elfhame Sanctuary idea, giving you a chance with Guile to optimally stack your deck, and helps with a land stall, but only one won't help that much. Personally, I'd cut one Growth as well.

[arcboundravager2]

this is the list ive worked on and been playing with great success. top 8'd the meandeck open


// Lands
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [R] Savannah
6 [UNH] Forest
4 [UNH] Plains
2 [US] Serra's Sanctum
1 [R] Taiga

// Acceleration
4 [DIS] Utopia Sprawl

// Draw Engine
4 [US] Argothian Enchantress
4 [ON] Enchantress's Presence

// Utility
4 [IN] Sterling Grove
1 [OD] Karmic Justice
2 [OD] Ground Seal
2 [SA] Oblivion Ring
4 [SDM] Runed Halo
2 [UD] Replenish

// Lockout
3 [JU] Solitary Confinement
2 [LE] Moat
2 [CK] Ghostly Prison
2 [VI] Elephant Grass

// Win Conditions
1 [MI] Sacred Mesa
1 [ON] Words of War
1 [CNF] Sigil of the Empty Throne

:// Sideboard
2 [MM] Spiritual Focus
2 [VI] city of Solitude
2 [10] Aura of Silence
1 [OD] Karmic Justice
1 [UD] Replenish
2 [VI] Elephant Grass
1 [OD] Ground Seal
1 [PLC] Seal of Primordium
3 [6] Warmth

[Sevryn]

this is the list ive worked on and been playing with great success. top 8'd the meandeck open

List

Questions:
-Did running 5 dual lands + 2 Sanctum ever bite you in the ass?
-Running 4x Runed Halo looks great, but did it ever under-perform?
-How did the 2/2 split of Grass/Prison work out for you?
-Did you ever want Seal of Primordium maindeck?
-How did Sacred Mesa work out? Have you considered a 2nd SotET in its place?
-Did Warmth have the impact you wanted?
-Have you considered 1x Story Circle?
-Lastly, what caused you to not run Choke in your SB?

Thanks for your time, I really do love your list!

[arcboundravager2]

Questions:
-Did running 5 dual lands + 2 Sanctum ever bite you in the ass?
-Running 4x Runed Halo looks great, but did it ever under-perform?
-How did the 2/2 split of Grass/Prison work out for you?
-Did you ever want Seal of Primordium maindeck?
-How did Sacred Mesa work out? Have you considered a 2nd SotET in its place?
-Did Warmth have the impact you wanted?
-Have you considered 1x Story Circle?
-Lastly, what caused you to not run Choke in your SB?

Thanks for your time, I really do love your list!

no running the duals didnt have any negative effect. i ran into decks capable of waste lock and was fine. runed halo has never underperformed if memory serves. the 2/2 split worked very well. it allows you some time to stabilize and is harder to disrupt. so far in my playing seal int necessary in the main. i like sacred mesa cause i can activate it under heavy pressure. media314r8 can vouch for this as he watched a match where i was being beaten down by a fairy swarm, drew this , stabilized and won. i played 2 decks with burn at the meandeck and warmth is the nuts against them. have you ever heard the expression "bolt you for one" i found that i dont really care what blue does during their turn but i want to resolve my spells and most counters are free in legacy. i prefer city. but its your choice.

[Redlotus27]

this is the list ive worked on and been playing with great success. top 8'd the meandeck open

Nice List



Being a long time enchantress player myself, I have a couple questions for you too. Did you ever feel that 4 Sprawls wasn't enough acceleration into a turn 2 Presence or a turn 2 Argo with daze protection?

4x Runed Halo feels like its 1 too many. I'd like to hear your thoughts on this as well.

I like to have one City of Solitude main. Chicago has LOTS of blue based decks and blanking countermagic seems pretty good. I also wonder how Spiritual focus worked out. I don't see much discard, and when I do, its usually very easy to draw over it with enchantress effects provided you were able to stick one. I usually run Sacred ground in that slot since LD is a ticket to frown town.

Gratz on your great run. I always love seeing enchantress doing well.

[arcboundravager2]

Being a long time enchantress player myself, I have a couple questions for you too. Did you ever feel that 4 Sprawls wasn't enough acceleration into a turn 2 Presence or a turn 2 Argo with daze protection?

4x Runed Halo feels like its 1 too many. I'd like to hear your thoughts on this as well.

I like to have one City of Solitude main. Chicago has LOTS of blue based decks and blanking countermagic seems pretty good. I also wonder how Spiritual focus worked out. I don't see much discard, and when I do, its usually very easy to draw over it with enchantress effects provided you were able to stick one. I usually run Sacred ground in that slot since LD is a ticket to frown town.

Gratz on your great run. I always love seeing enchantress doing well.

this is what has worked best for me. though your meta may be different. and runed halo is simply so powerful that i wouldnt want to play with any less than 4. it has saved me numerous times and can actually lock opponents out on their own.

[OneBigSquirrelGod]

this is what has worked best for me. though your meta may be different. and runed halo is simply so powerful that i wouldnt want to play with any less than 4. it has saved me numerous times and can actually lock opponents out on their own.

I don't agree with spiritual focus in the Sideboard, and I told Harrison that, but he believes it helps him with the discard matchup....

Well Harrison, how did focus work for you at the meandeck against me?
T1 Thoughtseize, took argothian
T2 Thoughseize, took presence, extirpated presence
T3 Thoughseize, Hymn
his T3, he drops focus......

I think the 2 SB Slots can be better utilized..... because most decks will make you discard before you can land that, even if they Thoughtseize you while you're on the play, they will probably take it, so hymn is more effective....

[Nonex]

Unless triple Thoughtseize + Hymn + Extirpate is the most common sequence in discard decks, I'd play some more games before drawing conclusions.

[Savo]

two 4x cards in the sideboard that, according to my testing, increase very much my matchups:

- against blue tempo decks (canadian, merfolk, baseruption, bant etc.): 4x carpet of flowers :eek:

I already play 2x city of solitude and 2x in the eye of chaos maindeck.
this little enchantment is capable of enhancing my chances of a good 15% after board. the key is TEMPO. try it!

- against red based aggro decks (zoo, goyf sligh, goblins): 4x warmth.

Zoo with qasali - and grips post side - is a very played deck at the moment in my area and in the world in general. I think it's a good idea to mantain a good edge agaist it. :rolleyes:

[Savo]

I don't agree with spiritual focus in the Sideboard, and I told Harrison that, but he believes it helps him with the discard matchup....

Spiritual focus is 100% worse than an other viable card: compost.:frown:
Compost makes you draw not only from discard spells, but even from rituals, extirpates, edicts, pernicious, and so on. The life gain is a minor detail.

[Otter]

Spiritual focus is 100% worse than an other viable card: compost.:frown:
Compost makes you draw not only from discard spells, but even from rituals, extirpates, edicts, pernicious, and so on. The life gain is a minor detail.

Not to mention that Compost is absolutely insane against Dredge and other random matchups, while Spiritual Focus is going to sit in your board. Just make sure not to put yourself into a position where Dredge can deck you if you play Compost.

[Sevryn]

Not to mention that Compost is absolutely insane against Dredge and other random matchups, while Spiritual Focus is going to sit in your board. Just make sure not to put yourself into a position where Dredge can deck you if you play Compost.

Oracle wording says 'may,' so this should be quite easy considering Enchantress pilots should already be very aware of self-decking risks. Thankfully the deck has built-in ways to deal (Words of War being the main one).

Although with Elephant Grass answering zombie tokens + ichorid, and dredge having minimal ways to deal with confinement lock, and some number of ground seal being main deck, and Wheel of Sun and Moon being very easy to run... Dredge is honestly one of our better match-ups, IMO. To be fair, I have not tested it extensively; if the truth is different, please let me know.

[Otter]

Oracle wording says 'may,' so this should be quite easy considering Enchantress pilots should already be very aware of self-decking risks. Thankfully the deck has built-in ways to deal (Words of War being the main one).

Oops, yeah, I misread it. I'm just so used to all of the 'chantress effects forcing draws in this deck.


Although with Elephant Grass answering zombie tokens + ichorid, and dredge having minimal ways to deal with confinement lock, and some number of ground seal being main deck, and Wheel of Sun and Moon being very easy to run... Dredge is honestly one of our better match-ups, IMO. To be fair, I have not tested it extensively; if the truth is different, please let me know.

Yeah, Dredge is very winnable unless they explode on turn one or two and Therapy/Hypnotist off your entire hand or whatever. Just saying that more cards against them is better and for what it's worth, at least Compost beats other random black stuff you might encounter (Sinkholes from Train Wreck, Eva Green etc). A copy or two in the board can go a long way, turn one E-Tutor into turn two Compost can carry a game on its own.

[Sevryn]

Yeah, Dredge is very winnable unless they explode on turn one or two and Therapy/Hypnotist off your entire hand or whatever. Just saying that more cards against them is better and for what it's worth, at least Compost beats other random black stuff you might encounter (Sinkholes from Train Wreck, Eva Green etc). A copy or two in the board can go a long way, turn one E-Tutor into turn two Compost can carry a game on its own.

I'm just unsold on the idea that Compost is better than Wheel of Sun and Moon at defeating graveyard-based strategies. That same turn one E-Tutor into Wheel feels stronger to me. Wheel also has use in other matches, such as anything trying to abuse Loam.

[Otter]

I'm just unsold on the idea that Compost is better than Wheel of Sun and Moon at defeating graveyard-based strategies. That same turn one E-Tutor into Wheel feels stronger to me. Wheel also has use in other matches, such as anything trying to abuse Loam.

Nobody ever said it's better, you're missing the point:

Compost:
-Owns Hymn/Seize stuff, Eva Green, Train Wreck, whatever
-Also playable in Dredge matchup
-Does nothing against Loam

Spiritual Focus
-Like compost against Hymn/Seize, but doesn't trigger off of Rituals or Sinkholes
-Horrible against Dredge
-Does nothing against Loam

Wheel:
-Makes Dredge matchup amazing
-Buys a good bit of time against Loam
-Does nothing against Hymn/Seize

If you need help trashing discard, play a copy of Compost in the board and as an added bonus you get to board it in against Dredge. If you used Spiritual Focus in the same slot it does nothing against Dredge, which is obviously worse. If you need a slot that's good against Loam/Dredge instead of Eva/Dredge then you go for Wheel instead. It depends what you want to beat and how much room you have in your board.

(And okay if you want to dissect my comment of "Compost is absolutely insane against Dredge," no, it isn't better than shutting off their gameplan entirely. But if a card I'm playing for a different matchup gets to hop on for Dredge too and force them to kill it or give me 10-20 cards, I'd say that's pretty insane.)

[Sevryn]

Nobody ever said it's better, you're missing the point:

(And okay if you want to dissect my comment of "Compost is absolutely insane against Dredge," no, it isn't better than shutting off their gameplan entirely. But if a card I'm playing for a different matchup gets to hop on for Dredge too and force them to kill it or give me 10-20 cards, I'd say that's pretty insane.)
I was just trying to get more of your rationale, which you were kind enough to provide. I'm really not trying to push Wheel so much as discuss how best to use limited sideboard space. It seems we at least agree that Spiritual Focus is very narrow compared to other available options, and I do like that Compost has multiple uses.

Out of curiosity, what does your entire SB look like? Here is mine:

SB: 1 [UD] Replenish
SB: 1 [OD] Karmic Justice
SB: 2 [8E] Sacred Ground
SB: 2 [VI] City of Solitude
SB: 2 [6E] Warmth
SB: 2 [PLC] Seal of Primordium
SB: 1 [8E] Blood Moon
SB: 2 [SHM] Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 2 [8E] Choke

[Otter]

Out of curiosity, what does your entire SB look like? Here is mine:

SB: 1 [UD] Replenish
SB: 1 [OD] Karmic Justice
SB: 2 [8E] Sacred Ground
SB: 2 [VI] City of Solitude
SB: 2 [6E] Warmth
SB: 2 [PLC] Seal of Primordium
SB: 1 [8E] Blood Moon
SB: 2 [SHM] Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 2 [8E] Choke

I'm not very confident in my board yet, but here's what I'm currently messing with:

1 Replenish (three MD)
1 Ground Seal (two MD)
2 Blood Moon (one MD)
1 Karmic Justice (none MD)
1 Compost
1 Aura of Silence (Seal of Primordium is MD)
1 Warmth
3 City of Solitude
4 Carpet of Flowers

I waffle between City and Choke, on the one hand Choke is clearly amazing, but Legacy's counters also tend to be free so City strikes me as a little safer. Testing Carpet of Flowers because of the mention of it last page and I thought it sounded interesting. If they don't work out, they'll probably turn into a pair of Chokes and a Sacred Ground or two.

edit -- why not, here's the MD too

Land
4 Heath
1 Savannah
1 Taiga
2 Sanctum
10 Forest
2 Plains

Core
4 Argothian
4 Presence
4 Grove
4 Grass
4 Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
3 Confinement
3 Replenish

Other
2 Mirri's Guile
1 Sigil
1 WoW
2 E-Tutor
1 Blood Moon
1 Seal of Prim
2 Ground Seal

[Sevryn]

Some criticisms:
-I've never felt like I needed 4 Replenish and have shifted to 2 MD and 1 SB.
-Seal of Primordium main is probably better as Oblivion Ring as a catch-all solution. I run a pair of SoP SB.
-6 Tutors might be overkill, but YMMV. I Run a 3/1 split of Grove/E-Tutor.
-1 Karmic Justice MD (with another in SB) has been kind to me... I like having a preemptive answer to explosives and deed game 1. Wiping their board and then Replenishing is usually gg, whereas sometimes they only need one attack phase after a sweeper to kill you.
-I have gravitated to 21 lands over time and like how it feels. Again, YMMV.

My current list relative to yours:
-1 Replenish
-1 Grove
-1 Grass
+3 Lignify
-1 Seal of Primordium
+1 Oblivion Ring
-1 Enlightened Tutor
+1 Sacred Mesa
-1 Mirri's Guile
-1 Blood Moon
+1 Karmic Justice
-1 Savannah
+2 Plains

Not that my list is better, but just so you know where I'm coming from. Lignify is the newest addition; most of the 3-ofs were to make room for it. Testing so far has been great... being able to immediately answer a confidant or address a lone creature that my opponent is willing to pay 2 to grass has been very solid.

[Savo]

Testing Carpet of Flowers because of the mention of it last page and I thought it sounded interesting.

Well done :wink:
I suggested carpet of flowers: I played several tournaments with choke post board - note that I play 2x city of solitude and 2x In the eye of chaos maindeck - and I didn't like choke. If city of solitude sticks, it's much stronger than resolving a choke.

Against blue tempo decks (all of the blue decks in the format are tempo-goyf decks, except from landstill that is probably a tier 2) we need to cast as many bombs as possible before being killed. It doesn't matter how many 3mana bombs we have in the deck if we don't have time to cast them and make them matter. And a Choke with two goyfs or an aether vial already in play is too slow to matter.

The solution against these matchups is to find the best ONE MANA enchantment possible: I believe Carpet of flowers could be the right choice.
Other options that I considered: Multani's presence, Eladamri's vineyard, Hidden Gibbons. :rolleyes:

[sunshine]

Question for the people not playing with Moat in their 75 - is this due to card availability or do you not think running the card is optimal?

[Savo]

Question for the people not playing with Moat in their 75 - is this due to card availability or do you not think running the card is optimal?

I don't play it even if I could do so. To me is overkill. Your goal is to set a confinement lock. Since it costs more mana, it's not realistic to consider it a way to buy time until you set the confinement lock (that's the case of elephant grass for instance): differently, moat is alternative to the confinement lock. So my question is: I need an alternative to confinement lock? answer: no.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

^


Also, I think it makes you a weaker player. It's like a mental crutch; it convinces you that you can find Moat and drop it and then you'll be safe, so that becomes your goal, instead of winning. Then when they have some random answer to Moat, you die because you made Moat your focus instead of the engine.

[Sevryn]

Question for the people not playing with Moat in their 75 - is this due to card availability or do you not think running the card is optimal?

I would definitely run one if it was available to me. Confinement lock is great but it requires 2 enchantresses out to be sustainable. Moat can, by itself, get you to game two against decks like goblins and merfolk, and against other agro decks that can bypass it (through disenchants or flying), it buys time until you can set up a better lock.

The double white is somewhat prohibitive with a list like mine, as I don't even run Savannah. But I would still run it. I probably wouldn't run more than one even if I could, however.

[Otter]

Not a fan of Moat for a couple of reasons:

1 - You can't possibly run more than one, which means you had to tutor for it in most instances where you need it. I don't see there being many scenarios where my board is so dead that I'd rather go find Moat than go get another engine piece to just win the game.

2 - It's good in our best matchups. If I was going to spend a maindeck slot on a card that hates a matchup, I definitely wouldn't spend it on beating Goblins and Merfolk. It's pretty bad against Zoo, they can Pridemage it or burn/Lavamancer you over it till you die. Doesn't help the control matchups, as Countertop is probably going to have Trygon/Grip and Landstill has Elspeth, and racing them isn't really part of the gameplan anyways, compared to resolving Replenish/Sigil.

3 -If you need to buy some time, you can always fog people with Confinements for a turn each and then Replenish them back when you actually need them. It works.

[Nonex]

As a fan of Moat I find some of those answers to be hard to understand. I don't mean to be rude, it's just that I'd like to read some more specific explanations.


Your goal is to set a confinement lock. Since it costs more mana, it's not realistic to consider it a way to buy time until you set the confinement lock (that's the case of elephant grass for instance)

It costs more mana than what? Why is it not realistic to buy time with it?


Also, I think it makes you a weaker player. It's like a mental crutch; it convinces you that you can find Moat and drop it and then you'll be safe, so that becomes your goal, instead of winning. Then when they have some random answer to Moat, you die because you made Moat your focus instead of the engine.

What do you exactly mean by "winning"? What do you consider a "random answer to Moat" and why does it work on it but not on Solitary Confinement?

Also, I don't understand why you should blame Moat for losing the game when it is you who is playing and not the cards. Shouldn't you realize you just searched for the wrong enchantment to answer what you were facing? Couldn't you see, game after game, when you should go for Moat and when not?


You can't possibly run more than one

Why not?


It's pretty bad against Zoo, they can Pridemage it or burn/Lavamancer you over it till you die

IMHO Confinement is just as fine as a Pridemage target, and while you set up the Confinement lock, Moat buys turns in which Zoo burns you with spells and/or Lavamancer instead of additionally attacking with Nacatls, Goyfs and/or Apes.


Doesn't help the control matchups, as Countertop is probably going to have Trygon/Grip and Landstill has Elspeth, and racing them isn't really part of the gameplan anyways, compared to resolving Replenish/Sigil.

It's not like you expect a card designed to crush aggro to be good against control, do you? Aren't we the aggro deck anyway in such matchups? Because there must be a reason why you don't mention Solitary Confinement here.


If you need to buy some time, you can always fog people with Confinements for a turn each and then Replenish them back when you actually need them

If there are Enchantress effects out there you can probably lock the game rather than just fog, and if there aren't any, that fog can buy you a turn to see if you draw the proper answer or just slow down your death, IMHO the latter occurs more often. Anyway, if you must let that Confinement die and need more time, you have to draw another Confinement or a Replenish. This is at least how I see it and why I think Moat is the best time buyer in the deck. If there's something I fail to see, please tell me.

[Savo]

Not a fan of Moat for a couple of reasons:

1 - You can't possibly run more than one, which means you had to tutor for it in most instances where you need it. I don't see there being many scenarios where my board is so dead that I'd rather go find Moat than go get another engine piece to just win the game.

2 - It's good in our best matchups. If I was going to spend a maindeck slot on a card that hates a matchup, I definitely wouldn't spend it on beating Goblins and Merfolk. It's pretty bad against Zoo, they can Pridemage it or burn/Lavamancer you over it till you die. Doesn't help the control matchups, as Countertop is probably going to have Trygon/Grip and Landstill has Elspeth, and racing them isn't really part of the gameplan anyways, compared to resolving Replenish/Sigil.

3 -If you need to buy some time, you can always fog people with Confinements for a turn each and then Replenish them back when you actually need them. It works.

Great.
4 - A card so difficult to cast, so slow, is not neutral to your primary plan: it damages it. It can be a very bad topdeck.

[arcboundravager2]

thanks all. ill try compost out and report back.

[ssw]

Hypothetical situation to those advocating against moat. Let's say you're on the play against Goblins or Merfolk, and you see:

Land
Land
Land
Sprawl
Presence
Sterling Grove
Sigil

Let's say you're pretty confident they can goldfish you by their 4th attack phase. What's your line of play?

I would argue this hand is very keepable if you're playing moat, and is pretty sketchy if you're not. Do you just ship hands that can't set up 2 enchantress effects + confinement by turn 4, or are missing elephant grass? With all of the builds I've iterated through (8 enchantress effects, 3-4 confinement, 4-6 tutor effects), I've always found that a significant proportion of my opening hands just don't lend themselves well to setting up 2x enchantress + confinement. You need the Moat-crutch in these situations.

[Otter]

A decently safe line of play against a fast aggro start would be:

t1 Land, Sprawl
t2 Land, Grove, search for Grass
t3 Land, Presence, Grass-> Draw
t4 Play w/e you've drawn that doesn't suck

[ssw]

A decently safe line of play against a fast aggro start would be:

t1 Land, Sprawl
t2 Land, Grove, search for Grass
t3 Land, Presence, Grass-> Draw
t4 Play w/e you've drawn that doesn't suck

The reason why I don't like playing this type of opening is that by turn 4 grass is much worse than on turn 2-3. Assuming that they've dropped guys, they can attack with 2 of them even after you've resolved grass, and you're still praying that you're topdecking well.

[Julian23]

They can only attack with one guy which makes Elephant grass pretty relevant.

[Sevryn]

Hypothetical situation to those advocating against moat. Let's say you're on the play against Goblins or Merfolk, and you see:

Land
Land
Land
Sprawl
Presence
Sterling Grove
Sigil

Let's say you're pretty confident they can goldfish you by their 4th attack phase. What's your line of play?

honestly, it depends on a number of things.

-first, as you say if you run moat, just get moat and watch them cry.

-how much time elephant grass will buy you. grass slows them down dramatically if their damage is coming from piledriver

-your confidence. seriously. what i normally do with a hand like that is trust my card-advantage:
turn 1 sprawl
turn 2 presence
turn 3 grove (draw a card), play a 1CC enchantment I topdecked (draw a card)
turn 4 crack grove for confinement, play it (draw a card)
turn 5 play sigil (draw a card).
turn 6 and on: keep playing enchantments to make angels and hopefully draw into more protection or more enchantresses. a gamble, for sure, but you are playing YOUR game and not THEIR game.

-who went first. the above plan is a lot worse if you lost the coin flip because both gobbos and you do nutty things averaging turn 4. depending on how nutty gobbos was acting, might have to go for grass on turn 3 in any case.

-quality of topdecks. you might topdeck elephant grass. you might topdeck your spot removal. you might topdeck sanctum and grove for sacred mesa. you might draw a 2nd enchantress and feel very confident going into confinement.

[Savo]

A decently safe line of play against a fast aggro start would be:

t1 Land, Sprawl
t2 Land, Grove, search for Grass
t3 Land, Presence, Grass-> Draw
t4 Play w/e you've drawn that doesn't suck

I'd never tutor for grass. probably I have never tutored for grass in my life.

Without any doubt I'd play:
t1 land, sprawl
t2 land, presence
t3 land, grove-->draw, other enchantment-->draw
and now I've certainly already seen one card between:
-grove (4x)
-enchantress effect (7x still in the deck)
-confinement (4x)

if it's one between enchantress effect and confinement, I tutor the other with grove and drop both on turn four; if it's elephant grass, I drop it, and it will probably give me one more turn after turn four to find enchantress effect or confinement and tutor the other with grove. GG :cool:

[AcidFiend]

Surprised no-one has posted this - Christopher Lou just took 1st place (tho it was split) in the SCG Legacy Open with this deck:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=30740

Nice one!! It was only time before this meta-deck had another top placing. Guessing he didn't run into any combo decks? Interesting choices are the Chrome Mox, 2 x Sigil as the only win condition and a solitary ET. I'd like to read a tourney report of this.

[Julian23]

Sigil is the best win condition I can think of as it doesn't require you to have any Enchantress effects on board to win. I also changed my win conditions to just 2 Sigils.

[Savo]

Surprised no-one has posted this - Christopher Lou just took 1st place (tho it was split) in the SCG Legacy Open with this deck:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=30740

Nice one!! It was only time before this meta-deck had another top placing. Guessing he didn't run into any combo decks? Interesting choices are the Chrome Mox, 2 x Sigil as the only win condition and a solitary ET. I'd like to read a tourney report of this.

Nice to know that enchantress made a so good result! :smile:

The 2x sygils are justified, to me, by the fact that he runs so much acceleration: 2 mox 4growth 4sprawl, for a total of ten. In this deck sygil seems not only a way to close a game already won, like in several enchantress builds, but an alternative to confinement lock to actually find a path for victory.

The single tutor is normal. several players go for it.

Personally I don't like the moxes, the loss of a card is too crucial for this deck to me. But I agree that the key to win the blue matchups is a tempo boost. Because of this, my choice is running 4x Carpet of Flowers post-side.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Hypothetical situation to those advocating against moat. Let's say you're on the play against Goblins or Merfolk, and you see:

Land
Land
Land
Sprawl
Presence
Sterling Grove
Sigil

Let's say you're pretty confident they can goldfish you by their 4th attack phase. What's your line of play?

I would argue this hand is very keepable if you're playing moat, and is pretty sketchy if you're not. Do you just ship hands that can't set up 2 enchantress effects + confinement by turn 4, or are missing elephant grass? With all of the builds I've iterated through (8 enchantress effects, 3-4 confinement, 4-6 tutor effects), I've always found that a significant proportion of my opening hands just don't lend themselves well to setting up 2x enchantress + confinement. You need the Moat-crutch in these situations.

This is kind of the circular nature of the big expensive defensive enchantments like Moat and Sigil.

You wouldn't really have many problems setting up and substaining a Confinement if you ran cheaper enchantments.

For the record, you should never start with Grove against aggro. The correct play is

Turn 1 Sprawl
Turn 2 Presence
Turn 3 as many enchantments as you can play, dig for something to stall
Turn 4 Blow up Grove if needed, set up Confinement


Congrats to Christopher Lou, but I dislike his list.

[Zlatzman]

Has anyone tested Chrome Mox vs. Lotus Petal vs. Elvish Spirit Guide? Seems like they all have their pros and cons.

To me ESG just seems a bit worse than Lotus Petal, although the ability to trick the opponent to play Daze is relevant. The 2/2 body in itself is decent enough, but I can't see the deck wanting to spend mana to play it when it could have been useful except when it's top-decked.

Lotus Petal on the other hand can help pay for turn one Runed Halo, which sounds decent against ANT, Dredge and other decks running Thoughtseize. It can also help getting Blood Moon down without fetching duals / setting Utopia Sprawl to red, if you run that. I guess the ability to play Words of War is less relevant, as you usually don't want to play that on an undeveloped board anyway.

Chrome Mox has some of the same colour restrictions as ESG. The card-disadvantage is a major drawback in the early turns while we try to develop our board. Is it worth it to get a permanent mana source rather than a single injection of mana?


Ultimately we need to decide whether the acceleration is needed game one, and if it's needed against other decks than blue decks games two and three, where Carpet of Flowers is just better.

[Julian23]

I just played a few (say 6-7) games with 4x Carpet of Flowers in the board against all kinds of blue tempo decks and have to say I really like them so far. It's such a HUGE tempo boost! I also returned to two Runed Halo maindeck and NO(!) Savannah at all. With 4 Windswept Heath and 4 Utopia Sprawl along with some plains (depending on how W-heavy your built is) reducing the amount of opening hands with Savannah (which I hate!) to zero is fine for me. By now, this never caused any color issues for me.

Oh, and I really dislike those Chrome Moxes. Tried them from time to time, but they just don't do it for me. On the draw they still dont make your Enchantress Daze-proof and well..I'd much rather have Carpet of Flowers I guess.

[(nameless one)]

With the Confinement lock, is it possible to use Luminarch Ascension as a back-up win condition?

[HAVE HEART]

Guessing he didn't run into any combo decks?

There was quite a bit of combo at the tournament, but not much of it had success. Lou ran into a bunch of Bant decks at the end of the day (some with CB Top, some without). I think he played like four or five Bant decks in a row (including the round he intentionally drew and the quarterfinals of the top eight).

[ssw]

This is kind of the circular nature of the big expensive defensive enchantments like Moat and Sigil.

You wouldn't really have many problems setting up and substaining a Confinement if you ran cheaper enchantments.

For the record, you should never start with Grove against aggro. The correct play is

Turn 1 Sprawl
Turn 2 Presence
Turn 3 as many enchantments as you can play, dig for something to stall
Turn 4 Blow up Grove if needed, set up Confinement


Congrats to Christopher Lou, but I dislike his list.

Let's say it wasn't a sigil, it was something like a Replenish or another essential blank in this situation.

By turn 3 you have 4 mana available barring you drew into a Sanctum. Before playing any spells on turn 3 you've seen 2 more cards. Are you really confident you can naturally dig into something to stall this situation, regardless of your build?

I agree with you that the toolbox builds are generally worse than the streamlined builds. I think moat and win conditions are exceptions to this rule.

[Julian23]

With the Confinement lock, is it possible to use Luminarch Ascension as a back-up win condition?

Why use Ascension when you can run Sigil which kills MUCH faster?

[(nameless one)]

Why use Ascension when you can run Sigil which kills MUCH faster?

Just wondering... I guess run 2 Sigils instead of 1

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Let's say it wasn't a sigil, it was something like a Replenish or another essential blank in this situation.

By turn 3 you have 4 mana available barring you drew into a Sanctum. Before playing any spells on turn 3 you've seen 2 more cards. Are you really confident you can naturally dig into something to stall this situation, regardless of your build?

I agree with you that the toolbox builds are generally worse than the streamlined builds. I think moat and win conditions are exceptions to this rule.


Or Exploration. I also run ESG. Turn 4 you can usually set up Confinement or at least double Grass, which should buy you time. With a much lower curve and Ground Seals for extra dig, I feel pretty good about turn 4, assuming you resolve a turn 2 enchantress.

[AcidFiend]

I've also tried Chrome Mox a number of times and don't like it either. Lately I have been running ESG which has been decent. The body on ESG is almost never relevant, but the ability to ramp your engine/plow through Daze definitely is. Not sure if I like 3 or 4 though. Lotus Petal is potentially better as someone mentioned if you're running multiple Runed Halos, I just haven't tested it yet.

Probably the worst thing about Lou's result is the fact more people are aware of the deck! Though decks that can board K. Grip probably already do so, so I doubt we'll see dedicated SB hate just yet. God forbid we have to think about the mirror soon! :tongue:

Edit: Re Carpet of Flowers - this looks great, but I'm not sure theres SB room for it, especially considering most SB's already include at least 4 blue-dedicated spots. You could always switch Wild Growth for CoF MD if you know a bunch of Blue decks have turned up.. that would be hot.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Chrome Mox

Cons: Card disadvantage; this can be especially dangerous against aggro decks, since it can prevent you from getting that early Confinement lock.

Pros: Sticks around.

Lotus Petal

Cons: Potentially gives Tarmogoyf +1, one shot only.

Pros: Provides any color.

ESG

Cons: Only green, one shot only.

Pros: Fights Daze, can provide a chumb blocker in a pinch.



I also dislike Chrome Mox, since you're mulliganing a lot already with this deck, the -1 CA can be huge. Lotus Petal is worth it if you're running a lot of white or a tertiary color beyond WoWhatever, but generally ESG is better, since it both fights Daze, and doesn't boost Goyf.

[Savo]

I just played a few (say 6-7) games with 4x Carpet of Flowers in the board against all kinds of blue tempo decks and have to say I really like them so far. It's such a HUGE tempo boost! .

First to have suggested it :cool: well done!

@acid fiend:

Edit: Re Carpet of Flowers - this looks great, but I'm not sure theres SB room for it, especially considering most SB's already include at least 4 blue-dedicated spots. You could always switch Wild Growth for CoF MD if you know a bunch of Blue decks have turned up.. that would be hot.

Carpet of Flowers is the thing I want most against blue tempo, much more than choke, as I sustained one page ago, as it's too slow to matter. my general rule is: who cares how many good three-drops I run if I don't have time to cast them!

-my side for reference:
4 warmth
4 carpet of flowers
2 seal of primordium
2 wheel of sun and moon
2 karmic justice
1 replenish

Note that I already play maindeck blue hate: 2x city of solitude and 2x In the eye of chaos (good for krosan grip and ad nauseam too, for instance).

[(nameless one)]

What is the general consensus concerning Runed Halo vs. Oblivion Ring?

On Christopher Lou's winning deck, he ran 2 Runed Halos and a single Oblivion Ring. Is that actually the ideal number or should we run more O-rings?

[Julian23]

God forbid we have to think about the mirror soon! :tongue:

Encounterted the mirror quite a lot during the last days of MWS. Like in most of the games it came down to decking and everytime the person to have less Enchantress effects (usually 1 or 2) on the board won. It was all about having TWO sterling grove (VERY important) on the board and then hiding behind confinement while being able to recurr it with Replenish without triggering any Enchantress to avoid drawing cards. Sounds silly, I know but as Enchantress usually only runs spot removal...oh, of course lists with Words of War usually just win against those without.

[caiomarcos]

What is the general consensus concerning Runed Halo vs. Oblivion Ring?

On Christopher Lou's winning deck, he ran 2 Runed Halos and a single Oblivion Ring. Is that actually the ideal number or should we run more O-rings?

I think Halo is better if you're expecting lots of combo, isn't it? O-rings are an even more generic answer, but not really useful against combo.

What about the number of Confinements? I don't feel comfortable running less than 3, but I've seen too many lists running only 2 so I guess it should be enough. Is it really?

[Julian23]

The more Runed Halo/Moat you run the less Confinements you might be running, I guess. Especially since against a lot of decks Runed Halo on Tarmogoyf is essentially a Confinement.

[Meister_Kai]

Against the mirror your best bet is to use Sigil, amp up to a lethal amount of Angels, then use something like tranquility and alpha strike for the win.

[Julian23]

Show me one Enchantress list that runs Tranqulity and I will kiss your feet.
/edit: or "something like Tranqulity" for that matter.

I agree that this seems like a viable strat but I guess a lot of work needs to be done until people start packing anything for the mirror. I'm tempted to use Aura of Silence in the next tournament in my sideboard. But for now...

[Redlotus27]

Show me one Enchantress list that runs Tranqulity and I will kiss your feet.
/edit: or "something like Tranqulity" for that matter.

I agree that this seems like a viable strat but I guess a lot of work needs to be done until people start packing anything for the mirror. I'm tempted to use Aura of Silence in the next tournament in my sideboard. But for now...


I was screwed by a player at the GP who in a mirror match dropped Dovescape while I did not have confinement and he did.

[Julian23]

Yeah, used to run that card just about 1-2 years ago as it beats Landstill cold.

[Meister_Kai]

Show me one Enchantress list that runs Tranqulity and I will kiss your feet.
/edit: or "something like Tranqulity" for that matter.

Obviously no one runs it now, I'm saying it would be a viable choice in the sideboard if Enchantress is big where you live. Dovescape is also a choice but is slightly more awkward.

I would say the best bets for the mirror would be either Helix Pinnacle or Tranquility+Angel alpha strike.

[ssw]

Obviously no one runs it now, I'm saying it would be a viable choice in the sideboard if Enchantress is big where you live. Dovescape is also a choice but is slightly more awkward.

I would say the best bets for the mirror would be either Helix Pinnacle or Tranquility+Angel alpha strike.

Both Calming Verse and Cleansing Meditation are blowouts in the mirror.

[Sevryn]

An actual SCG article (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/18585_Legacys_Allure_Building_a_Metagamed_Enchantress_List.html) on enchantress. Neat.

[AcidFiend]

I've been testing on MWS lately, even ran into a few mirror matches which I was ill-equipped to handle =\

I've been loving the manabase of 21 lands (2 Savannah + 2 Sanctum) + 3 ESG though. It feels *really* solid. I've had more than a few Thresh/Merfolk opponents frustrated that I was able to answer their Daze with an ESG. As some others have noted, I've been hating Savannah and may consider testing a build without it altogether. There are *that* many Wastelands running around its not funny. Sanctum of course remains good, as you can keep it in hand and drop it when you want to explode for a turn (even if it eats an immediate Wasteland). This was never really debated anyways I guess.

The biggest blowouts I've ran into has been Turn 2/3 Iona and Deed + Thoughtseize. Most Rock players will discard your replenish on the turn they deed and unless you had a Karmic Justice in play its a beating.

I was never previously a fan of adding Enlightened Tutor, mainly due to the fact it wasn't an enchantment. But more and more I've lost games where I've used Sterling Grove to tutor something, only to have some permanents destroyed/bounced resulting in a loss. Maybe I am misplaying but I know I really value my Sterling Groves being in play and feel 1-2 ET's may help complete the lock better. Shame this deck is so tight, I'm not sure how I'm going to fit them in :frown:

[Forbiddian]

If you want to win the mirror, run Words of Wind as your win condition instead of Words of War along with two Exploration.

You can continuously use this one-sided upheaval and then win at leisure with anything else.

[Meister_Kai]

If you want to win the mirror, run Words of Wind as your win condition instead of Words of War along with two Exploration.

You can continuously use this one-sided upheaval and then win at leisure with anything else.

Doing this is much more of a hassle than Calming Verse. I didn't know that card existed and I really like it. That card + angel alpha strike wins the mirror if they don't have Karmic Justice. Personally I feel like Helix Pinnacle is the card you want though.

[Otter]

Is Helix Pinnacle really that effective? Don't forget that Serra's Sanctum is legendary. Assuming both players run the standard two copies and both draw large portions of their decks, it seems extremely unlikely that either would be able to stick Sanctum on the table for more than a turn or two. I definitely would not like to be stuck ramping up Pinnacle without Sanctum while my opponent goes to find their own mirror tech. Not to mention that if tech is some sort of global enchantment wipe, you'd have to start ramping the Pinnacle all over again.

edit -- some hilarious tech would be enchanting them with Wheel so that they can't Replenish. Too bad that they can play a Runed Halo on it :frown:

[Meister_Kai]

Is Helix Pinnacle really that effective? Don't forget that Serra's Sanctum is legendary. Assuming both players run the standard two copies and both draw large portions of their decks, it seems extremely unlikely that either would be able to stick Sanctum on the table for more than a turn or two. I definitely would not like to be stuck ramping up Pinnacle without Sanctum while my opponent goes to find their own mirror tech. Not to mention that if tech is some sort of global enchantment wipe, you'd have to start ramping the Pinnacle all over again.

edit -- some hilarious tech would be enchanting them with Wheel so that they can't Replenish. Too bad that they can play a Runed Halo on it :frown:

If they have no mass enchantment wipe, it doesn't matter if you have Sanctum or not, you more or less have all the time in the world to win. However, You only need 1 Helix Pinnacle in your SB to be effective, and my SB is always so cramped due to Enchantress being a metagame deck in the first place that I don't want to stuff any more cards into it for a mirror match that probably won't occur anyway.

[AcidFiend]

JANK ALERT: Has anyone tested Words of Worship + Test of Endurance as an alternate win condition? I know its clunky as hell but Words of Worship + your engine can quickly put you out of kill range of most decks, meanwhile you can win through an opponents Solitary Confinement during the mirror.

Its probably no better than a Helix pinnacle I guess which you can run a single copy of.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

The most effective card in the mirror is Aura of Silence. If you can stick and protect one, you pretty much just win.

[Gibbie_X]

Spatula has got it right. Get Aura out and a grove, and you are set. I run Aura main, not for the mirror, but for any and everything else. It's a solid card against deck we normally beat, just adds a little extra edge. I played a mirror, I had Aura down before he could do anything, and won. Even dropping it against the random CounterTop seems good. They waste a counter on it, or lose something vital, say, Counter Balance.

[Zack Guido]

Yep. I've played some mirror matches with a friend who also plays Enchantress from time to time and a resolved Aura of Silence on either side usually ends the game if they can't get rid of it fast enough.. (Which usually can't happen)

I would also agree that Helix Pinnacle might not be the best answer to the mirror matchup. The Legendary Serra's Sanctum would really be a problem.

[jiazhouhuaqiao]

This is the best Enchantress discussion I've ever found. I'd like to contribute my Enchantress deck. I hope you find some ideas worth mining.

Squirrel Enchantress

Sorcery (8):
2 X Chatter of the Squirrel
4 X Regrowth
2 X Replenish

Instant (2):
1 X Order // Chaos
1 X Enlightened Tutor

Enchantment (27):
3 X Exploration
4 X Elephant Grass
1 X Peace of Mind
3 X Sterling Grove
4 X Enchantress' Presence
2 X Martyr's Cause
1 X Nantuko Shrine
4 X Squirrel Nest
1 X Holistic Wisdom
1 X Dueling Grounds
2 X Aura Shards
1 X Karmic Justice

Artifact (3):
1 X Predator, Flagship
2 X Lotus Petal

Land (20):
8 X Forest
5 X Plains
4 X Savannah
2 X Taiga
1 X Wasteland

Sideboard (Note this is a hypothetical sideboard, since in casual I don't use sideboards):

4 X Argothian Enchantress
4 X Carpet of Flowers
2 X Runed Halo
2 X Compost
1 X Replenish
1 X Martyr's Cause
1 X Aura Shards

Some background: I first put this deck together as a casual creatureless squirrel token deck based around Chatter of the Squirrel, Acorn Harvest and Squirrel Nest. By chance I picked up a cheap set of Enchantress' Presence and had the idea of making it Enchantment based, with Enchantments to buff my tokens and protection. Since all the key cards for Enchantress were released in roughly the same era (Urza's -> Invasion), the deck came together very naturally as an Enchantress deck. Worth noting is that I never ran the Earthcraft/ Squirrel Nest combo, even when Earthcraft was legal, since this was meant to be a casual squirrel deck. Ofcourse if Earthcraft ever came back it would take the deck to another level.

The main additions my deck makes from a typical Enchantress deck are 2 cards: Aura Shards and Martyr's Cause. Putting an emphasis on creating creature tokens enables these 2 amazing cards. Aura Shards really needs no introduction, but as I've read many posts saying combo is a bad matchup for Enchantress, but Aura Shards completely controls the board. Almost every combo deck relies on having some Enchantment or Artifact on the board. I am able to destroy their permanents at instant speed and/ or at End of Turn/ and/ or in response to them casting at sorcery speed with Squirrel Nest, and I can do it from the graveyard with Chatter of the Squirrel. I kill Affinity. I kill Isochron Scepter. I kill Engineered Plague. And I can do it persistently.

Martyr's Cause is a little known white enchantment that is the lynchpin of my defense. It reads:

Martyr's Cause
W2
Enchantment
Sacrifice a creature: Prevent all damage to a creature or player from one source. (Treat further damage from that source normally.)

Generally my creature defense relies on finding Dueling Grounds or Elephant Grass to stop swarms and squirrel tokens to clog down the ground, and then finally finding Martyr's Cause to lock out any damage. Nothing is going to get through, not flyers, not Lightning Bolts. In response to an Earthquake I can save half my tokens. With Squirrel Nest I can throw up prevention shields at instant speed if my token army get wiped.

If you prefer Angels to Squirrels you can still make these cards work for you.

Now some individual card explanations:

Nantuko Shrine/ Regrowth: This is the engine I generally use to churn out massive numbers of Squirrel tokens for the end game. By continually Regrowthing Regrowths, I can generate as many tokens as I have mana/

Order // Chaos: I generally use Chaos as the finisher: get lethal creature damage on the board, use Aura Shards to blow up Dueling Grounds, cast Chaos and attack for the kill. Order is also useful to deal with creatures that keep on coming back. If there is one card I'd like to change about the deck though, it's this one.

Predator, Flagship: This is spot creature removal. If you want a spot creature removal, you want an artifact. Predator is easier to use than Legacy Weapon. It removes flyers easier and flyers are generally the more problematic ones. In a pinch you can clear the skies and ping your opponent with flying squirrel tokens or clog up the skies with them on defense. If you need a solution for Iona, this is it. You can dig for it with Enlightened Tutor.

Peace of Mind: Life gain gives you a buffer and can be the difference between winning and losing. Peace of Mind is very mana efficient life gain, at 1 mana for 3 life. Once you get the card draw going you should have more than enough cards in hand to fuel Peace of Mind. It turns your dead land draws into life.

Regrowth: While it increases your mana expenditure, Regrowth is just really versatile in this deck and creates a ton of redundancy for you, and can turn into a tutor with Sterling Grove or Enlightened Tutor.

Chatter of the Squirrel: It gives you a play at 1 mana. Once you have Aura Shards that token is a Naturalize. Flashback is great, who's going to counter it, and good against discard. You bust it in an emergency for the graveyard.

Where I would take this deck to make it more competitive: Make it faster and more mana efficient by cutting cards for full sets of Enlightened Tutor and Lotus Petal. I think Holistic Wisdom can go and perhaps Elephant Grass. Full sets of both would be very efficient with a Nantuko Shrine in play. Also I would find something to replace Order // Chaos in geen preferably.

Some miscellaneous thoughts:

Root Maze: I need to try this card out. As a singleton, it will lock out Charbelcher, Grindstone, etc... Since my version can remove artifacts and lands with Aura Shards and Wasteland. But if you run a full set, on the play, as a turn 1 play, it is a Timewalk. It makes Fetchlands junk. It let's you play with tap lands without any drawback. It's a turn 1 Time Walk that stays in play to continue to disrupt your opponent. So this card needs to be tested and discussed.

Seal of Cleansing/ Seal of Primordium: I like having spot Enchantment/ Artifact removal, but don't run this. Run Erase, Naturalize, Krosan Grip or Primeval Light instead. You don't want your board control to be an Enchantment, since then it will get beat by the Enchantment hate that is beating the rest of your deck. Think Aura of Silence or god forbid Presence of the Master! The card draw you are getting from your Enchantress is not worth it in this case.

Wild Research: If you make the red to cast this, this is an Enchantment tutor that stays in play. It can set you up for a nice Replenish as well.

[AcidFiend]

unique list

Hmm where to begin. You said a number of times your list is casual and I can dig that. This is however a competitive Enchantress thread; there is a casual sub-forum to discuss pet decks. If I was to look at your deck from a competitive angle:

-Enchantress is not Enchantress without Argothian. Playing 4 has been standard in pretty much every sucessful Enchantress list since its printing.
-27 enchantments is a little low for an enchantress deck


"If you want a spot creature removal, you want an artifact."
Did you just say that? This is an enchantment based deck. Ideally if you wanted spot creature removal, wouldn't you prefer it to be enchantment based? Fortunately there are a few options: Lignify, Journey to Nowhere, Oblivion Ring all get there over Predator, Flagship. (thanks for the lol though).


Generally my creature defense relies on finding Dueling Grounds or Elephant Grass to stop swarms and squirrel tokens to clog down the ground, and then finally finding Martyr's Cause to lock out any damage. Nothing is going to get through, not flyers, not Lightning Bolts. In response to an Earthquake I can save half my tokens. With Squirrel Nest I can throw up prevention shields at instant speed if my token army get wiped.
Ok so your defense involves how many cards exactly? Dueling Grounds into Martyr's Cause + (Nantuko Shrine + 2 x Regrowth) or 2 x Squirrel Nest to prevent most damage (and hope they can't sweep your guys)? Or you could cast 1 Solitary Confinement with an Enchantress effect, which will stop all damage in its tracks. Whatever you find easier bro.

Perhaps the most worthy nonbasic of all has been omitted: Serra's Sanctum. As it is you have 6 nonbasics, which combined with Squirrel Nests, are sure to eat Wasteland all day and 2-for-1 you.


Peace of Mind is very mana efficient life gain, at 1 mana for 3 life.
Yeah there's a reason the '40-Healving Salve.dec' never took off - it was crap.


Chatter of the Squirrel: Flashback is great, who's going to counter it, and good against discard.
So your justification to play terrible cards is that no-one will counter them? Gotcha.


Root Maze: if you run a full set, on the play, as a turn 1 play, it is a Timewalk. Wow really? So this is the missing piece of the power 9, the mythical '10th' card. A Time Walk for 1 green mana. My god what was Wizards thinking.

Seriously though if you want to speed up your deck you need to: add 4 Argothian, up your Enchantment count and find less clumsy win conditions.

[jiazhouhuaqiao]

-Enchantress is not Enchantress without Argothian. Playing 4 has been standard in pretty much every sucessful Enchantress list since its printing.
-27 enchantments is a little low for an enchantress deck

I don't have trouble finding a Presence, and it would be even easier with a full set of Enlightened Tutors. I disagree that an Enchantress effect is always necessary. In fact, it only seems necessary if you need to maintain a Solitary Confinement. Against any sort of swarm deck, as long as I can get a Dueling Grounds to stick, I'll win. Against combo, I just need Aura Shards and Squirrel Nest. Against burn, Martyr's Cause and Squirrel Nest.

For this deck, Argothian Enchantress is a very good play at 2 mana, but all she does is conditionally draw cards, and she dies. It's not like she's the best 2CC creature ever printed. I don't think I've ever played my deck and felt like it was underpowered and wished I had Argothian Enchantresses in there. She doesn't solve anything, and it's not like you need so many Enchantress effects. I would play a full set of Enlightened Tutors before 1 Argothian Enchantress. What I *do* run is a full set of Regrowths instead of Argothian Enchantress. Argothians add redundancy. Regrowths add redundancy and versatility.

She's just a creature. If you want to run her, she's great. She's a really good card but decks are fine without her.


Did you just say that? This is an enchantment based deck. Ideally if you wanted spot creature removal, wouldn't you prefer it to be enchantment based? Fortunately there are a few options: Lignify, Journey to Nowhere, Oblivion Ring all get there over Predator, Flagship. (thanks for the lol though).

An artifact- based removal gets around Protection and weird effects like Iona. Legacy Weapon is better but you had to make WUBRG.


Ok so your defense involves how many cards exactly? Dueling Grounds into Martyr's Cause + (Nantuko Shrine + 2 x Regrowth) or 2 x Squirrel Nest to prevent most damage (and hope they can't sweep your guys)? Or you could cast 1 Solitary Confinement with an Enchantress effect, which will stop all damage in its tracks. Whatever you find easier bro.

Solitary Confinement is a very powerful card, but it's also very high maintenance. Martyr's Cause? Low maintenance. If you need to drop it on turn 2 or 3 so you don't die to Lightning Bolt.dec, you can. With Solitary Confinement, if you play it that early, you lose. You can play Martyr's Cause before an enchantress, but you can't with Confinement. I don't like losing the normal draw either.

And it's not hard in this deck to find a specific enchantment and play it. That's what this deck is built to do, toolbox and make creature tokens. You take whatever you drew to slow and disrupt your opponent, then fish out a silver bullet that they lose to.


Perhaps the most worthy nonbasic of all has been omitted: Serra's Sanctum. As it is you have 6 nonbasics, which combined with Squirrel Nests, are sure to eat Wasteland all day and 2-for-1 you.

How is Serra's Sanctum good? I want a source for white that I can cast Enlightened Tutor as my one of my better plays turn 1. Why do I need to make that much white mana?

Why would you put Squirrel Nest on a land that can be hit by Wasteland? I like Squirrel Nest more than Sigil. I can make the tokens at instant speed, which is important for Aura Shards. I don't have to make WW. I can drop it as a 3CC play. For the deck there isn't too much difference between a 4/4 flying angel and a 1/1 squirrel, or 1/1 pegasi or 1/1 saproling or 1/1 worm.


Yeah there's a reason the '40-Healving Salve.dec' never took off - it was crap.

I'm open to suggestions for a better life gain card. Before I played with life gain, sometimes the deck would be too slow and I would die. Now, with 1 card I can erase all the damage that my opponent did in the first few turns and build a buffer to negate Demonfire and the like.


So your justification to play terrible cards is that no-one will counter them? Gotcha.

Chatter isn't a terrible card but if you think it's underpowered then don't run it. It gives you a body on turn 1, which is worthwhile in many situations. Later it comes back attached to a Disenchant.


Wow really? So this is the missing piece of the power 9, the mythical '10th' card. A Time Walk for 1 green mana. My god what was Wizards thinking.

I don't know. I've never tried it but it's worth trying. It's a card that affects at least 1/3 of a normal opponent's deck, and it may affect nearly all of an opponent's deck. Kismet was never a bad card in high level play. Since I can blow up enchantments and artifacts at will, I should at least run it as a singleton.


Seriously though if you want to speed up your deck you need to: add 4 Argothian, up your Enchantment count and find less clumsy win conditions.

I don't lose to not finding Argothians. I lose against decks that can win on turn 1 or 2 before I can play much more than a land. In that case I don't need Argothian drawing me into random junk that I can't cast before I die. I used to lose to Lightning Bolt.dec that ends with Fireblast, but not too much anymore. With Enchantress, does your win condition make much difference? Mine is make a lot of tokens. That's the same win condition as Sigil of the Empty Throne.

This is a deck I've played and tweaked for several years. I've tried practically everything I can find. It's saying something when in this deck, even without Argothian Enchantresses, I don't even bother making WW2 for Humility. I am saying what works for me is Squirrel Nest + Aura Shards + Martyr's Cause, instead of Solitary Confinement.

[Meister_Kai]

snip

You are obviously either a troll or just very uniformed.

I think your deck and your ideas therewith would find a much friendlier place in the casual forums, found here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=56

As is seen by your posts, what you are trying to do with Enchantress is fundamentally different than what more or less everyone else on this thread is trying to do with the deck.

I can understand questioning deck archetype fundamentals, but Argothian Enchantress? Serra's Sanctum? Thinking of running x4 Enlightened Tutors?

Not to poke fun at you, but things like these are questions all of us here answered a long time ago, I suggest if you truly want your deck to be competitive you take a hard long look back into this thread, all the way back
to the beginning if necessary.

Also, just a heads up, I'm just going to say right here that I refuse to argue card choices with you; people who have ideas as different as yours that I see as strictly worse than what we already have always use logic that is almost bulletproof until you actually take the pile you are promoting to a "real" event. Put bluntly its a waste of time for both parties.

[jiazhouhuaqiao]

I just don't get it then. All I am trying to contribute is for you to look at 3 cards: Aura Shards to deal with combo/ jank and for board control, Martyr's Cause as an alternative to Solitary Confinement, and Root Maze for early disruption and combo with Aura Shards. And then I also suggest looking at some form of toolbox life gain and running an artifact to solve problem creatures.

If you can't take me seriously because I don't run Argothian Enchantress, then just pretend they are in the deck. But I think if you take a look at what Enchantress loses to you'll see that their impact is minimal. Solitary Confinement is more powerful than Martyr's Cause but it's too slow to consistently set up. One is a dead draw in your opening hand and the other is not.

[Aggro_zombies]

I just don't get it then. All I am trying to contribute is for you to look at 3 cards: Aura Shards to deal with combo/ jank and for board control, Martyr's Cause as an alternative to Solitary Confinement, and Root Maze for early disruption and combo with Aura Shards. And then I also suggest looking at some form of toolbox life gain and running an artifact to solve problem creatures.

If you can't take me seriously because I don't run Argothian Enchantress, then just pretend they are in the deck. But I think if you take a look at what Enchantress loses to you'll see that their impact is minimal. Solitary Confinement is more powerful than Martyr's Cause but it's too slow to consistently set up. One is a dead draw in your opening hand and the other is not.
Let me first say this: I don't play this deck at all, but I know how it works, and I know you're wrong.

Aura Shards is worse than Krosan Grip, Seal of Cleansing, and Seal of Primordium. Enchantress can win entirely without creatures (Words of War), but the builds that do win through combat don't generate enough creatures early on enough for Shards to be relevant. Furthermore, the card is awful against combo because the deck can't really make creatures at instant speed, and the combo player can hold his artifacts until he's ready to go off (on, like, turn four tops) and then dump them and use them all at once. Aura Shards is great in EDH but it's pretty awful in real formats. No one will take you seriously when you suggest it.

Martyr's Cause is a dead draw in your opening hand, and Confinement isn't. Have you seen the builds in this thread? Did you see the build that won the L.A. SCG $5K tournament? None of them make enough creatures early enough in the game to make the card even remotely close to playable, let alone good. Confinement piggybacks off your draw engine and can go the distance by itself. Cause requires another card capable of continuously generating creatures and can't take advantage of the deck's existing structure. No one will take you seriously when you suggest it.

Root Maze doesn't do anything for this deck that's relevant. This deck takes off starting on about turn three and has crushing inevitability from there. Root Maze may slow the other guy down, but it's worse than playing an Enchant Land to accelerate yourself, which slows you down as well. You're losing more off of not buffing your mana than the other guy is off of not being able to use his fetch on turn one. The card doesn't even help against combo, which can still activate Petals and LEDs even when they CiP tapped. No one will take you seriously when you suggest it.

Your deck is an amusing casual build, but the decks in this thread are tuned for a competitive, GP-level event. These lists have been proven as tournament winners and are pretty nearly optimized, if not totally optimized, for an average metagame. You're suggesting cards that don't help the deck's problem matchups and which require support structures that would force the deck to be radically retooled. That's why people aren't taking you seriously: to put it bluntly, your suggestions are really bad.

[jiazhouhuaqiao]

Root Maze- Lotus Petal requires tapping to activate, as does Chrome Mox. Fetchlands would enter play tapped, and the land they fetch would enter play tapped as well, slowing them down for 2 turns or setting them up for Wasteland. If you are on the play, Root Maze becomes asymmetrical because you can play it after you've played your land/ artifact mana, and you may be playing Elvish Spirit Guides. It also magnifies the effect of Exploration. It's early disruption like Elephant Grass, and as a late draw it will prevent your opponent from going off in one turn if any part of their combo requires an artifact that taps to activate. At least it should be considered for sideboard.

Enchantress has speed issues. It has a bad curve, a glut of essential plays at 3CC. You only solve this by speeding up, or slowing the game down. Or you can do both at the same time.

I agree that Aura Shards is not nearly as good at sorcery speed. Sacred Mesa would make tokens at instant speed, as does Squirrel Nest, Night Soil and other token- generating enchantments, artifacts and lands. Maybe it is too slow to stop a combo nuts draw, but that is why you would run something like Root Maze to slow down their fast mana. It's the same converted casting cost as Krosan Grip and it let's you lock them out of their combo piece for good. It let's you have a chance of disrupting Counterbalance, Top, Dream Halls, etc...

[Sevryn]

Root Maze is too symmetrical, it slows us down just as much as the opponent. The best turn 1 plays are Enchant Lands - Wild Growth and Utopia Sprawl. This gives us the best shot of landing an Enchantress or a Sterling Grove with mana to activate on turn 2. Root Maze might have a home in some funky Stasis/Enchantress deck, but it really doesn't belong in Confinement/Enchantress. This deck has evolved quite a bit and been honed a lot, people are working on the last few slots of the deck and aren't really wanting to change the entire deck because you think it should have squirrels in it... to put it nicely.

[jiazhouhuaqiao]

Ok some ideas:

Against Iona- what about Karakas, or Karakas in the sideboard?

Aura Shards- if you run a full set of Elvish Spirit Guides for mana acceleration, then you have 8 potential draws in midgame (the argothian enchantresses and the spirit guides) that become disenchants, at 2 or 3 mana respectively. You can run it as a singleton bullet or in the sideboard.

Titania's Song- kills artifact based combos if you accelerate into it. And I just asked for a ruling, but would Titania's Song + Aura Shards turn your Petals and Moxes into 0 casting cost sorcery speed Naturalizes? Also artifact lands.

Boseiju, Who Shelters All- To force through a Replenish.

Hideaway Lands- To bypass the casting cost of an expensive enchantment.

Squirrels get no respect- but Aura Shards should.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Jiaz - Actually, your list looks a lot like the list that later evolved into Solitaire. Only the combo was Deranged Hermit + Lifeline + Martyr's Cause. Also, Kamahl, Fist of Krosa + False Prophet. Either way, the keyword is probably "evolved".

Karakas is an interesting option. I've been tinkering with 1 as a Wish target. But I don't know, it seems kind of narrow.

Aura Shards - Who would you want it against and why would it be better than Aura of Silence?

[jiazhouhuaqiao]

Aura Shards - Who would you want it against and why would it be better than Aura of Silence?

Enchantress and Affinity, and numerous 2 card combo decks that rely on either an enchantment or artifact. It may also hit random disruption/ locks/ defenses your opponent is using.

2 card combos:

Leyline of the Void/ Helm of Obedience: Hits both parts.

Dream Halls: You can blow up Dream Halls in response to Conflux.

Painter's Servant/ Grindstone: Hits both parts.

Charbelcher: You would have to hit Charbelcher with something like Root Maze.

Aluren + X: Hits Aluren. Trickier because it can all be done at instant speed, but still feasible.

Disruption/ Utility:

Counterbalance/ Divining Top: Hits both.

Isochron Scepter/ Orim's Chant: Kills Scepter.

Standstill: You can break Standstill without giving them cards.

Ethersworn Canonist, Blood Moon, Arcane Laboratory, Crucible of Worlds

Aether Vial: Blow it up to slow them down.

For my deck it takes out Engineered Plague.

You use it against whatever they have to stop your win condition, whatever Enchantress uses whether it be Moat, Confinement, Runed Halo, Oblivion Ring, or Meekstone or Winter Orb or Wheel of Moon and Sun or Ensnaring Bridge. It's not enough to make Angel tokens, sometimes you also have to clear the board.

Why Aura Shards over Aura of Silence? First I would say it is easier to make GW1 than WW1. Aura of Silence, in play, slows down artifacts and enchantments but it doesn't stop them. And Enchantress gives the other player more than enough time to come up with 2 mana. Aura of Silence would not help against Affinity if it is slow to come out. I think most decks with artifact and enchantment pieces, that expect to handle Krosan Grip and Kataki, can handle either of Aura of Silence's effects, but probably cannot play around Aura Shards + an instant speed token generator. Finally, you can use it to blow up your own enchantments at will. I use that all the time to get rid of excess Presences and Dueling Grounds when I'm going for the win.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Aura of Silence doesn't need other cards on the board to function though. And when you're talking about spot removal, that's a more important factor than the extra W.

[Opax]

Hi all! Posting 2 report from 2 Trial i've done in the last weeks.

This is the my list:

6 forest
3 windswept heath
2 mistyrain forest
1 plain
1 karakas
1 tropical
1 taiga
2 savannah
2 serra sanctum

4 argothian enchantress
4 enchantress presence

3 sterling grove
3 solitary confinement
4 elephant grass
2 ground seal

3 Elvish spirit guide
4 utopia sprawl
3 wild growth

1 moat
1 aura of silence
2 mirri guile
2 replenish
1 oblivion ring
1 lignify
2 in the eye of chaos

1 word of war
2 sigil of the empty throne

SIDE

2 city of solitude
1 choke
1 suppression field
1 aethersworn canonist
1 rule of law
2 enlightened tutor
1 compost
1 Cop red
1 runed haloo
1 replenish
1 sterling grove
2 karmic justice



1) merfolk: 2-0. winned quite easy. 1st match replenish wins, 2nd match moat give me time to set confinement.

2) white weenie: 1-1. Bad opponent. i burn him 1st match. 2nd he set gaddok and canonist lock at 3rd turn i was going out but i made an herror and i lost the match. time give us a draw.

3) the rock: 2-0. easy win

4)landstill: 0-2 unlucky match. i see no lands in the 1st match and i mull to 4 in the second. he blindflipped with counterbalance an elspeth on my replenish -.-

5)Ad Nauseam: 2-1. win the 1st setting aura of silence 3rd turn and in the eye of chaos at 4th. 2nd match he kill me his 2nd turn. 3rd i set a turn 2 rule of law and he give up after 2 grove ad 1 confinement.

6)tempo *****: 0-2. 1st match i was screwed and he killed me in 7 turn with a goyf 3/4. second match he chained 4 ice on my land with wild growth. killed by 2 moongose and a bolt.

7) merfolk: 2-1. I easily win the 1st. i had some bad draw in the second and he arrange to win. 3rd match i set a suppression field. he tapped out attacking with a mutalvault and i resolved a choke that kill him :)

final result 15/62 2 point from top 8

i got 2 unlucky match and a lucky one so i return at home quite happy for the result.

the weekend later i went to another trial. deck was same i make a little changes:

+ 1 gerrard battlecry
+1 oblivion ring
1 moat moved to side
changhes 3 vexing susher for the 2 city and the choke in side. and i moved out compost.


1) dredge: 2-1 easy match.

2) baseruption: 2-1 I started with 1 game loss cause list irregularity-.-. he set 2 time cb lock on second turn. i arrange both match a replenish when i was quite dead.

3) eva green with marit lage combo 1-2. combo at 2nd turn 1st match, i set a good elephant grass in the second, i get unlucky and after a mull to 5 in the last.

4) MIRROR: 1-1 1st i win for time, 2nd i was screwed, 3rd we set both a confinement with 2 grove but we go to time and so we draw.

i go to top 4 for rating.

semifinal was with the evagreen that i killed in 10 min with a 2-0

final was with a bantcontrol with countertop.

i win quite easyily. the 1st he resolved some fast goyf in the second and he win. the last match on 2nd turn i have an ESG on his daze on my enchantress and same later on a replenish.
both time karakas make me win bouncing gaddok.

1st on 12 :)

About my deck
i'm playing 63 card and i need to reduce them to 60-61. but sincerly i don't know what to take out .

In the eye of chaos is a bomb. not only vs control deck but vs a lot of combo and burn deck

ESG give me the win a lot of time. a lot better than mox according to me. used a lot of time a antidaze and spellspierce

karakas is very useful in some match but sincerly i don't know if mine manabase can have 1 more non- basic land in.

vexing susher its a bomb. i know it go under the creature removal spot but i suppose people side them out at the second match:). and sincerly i find myself a lot of time with the hand full of hateful card for control deck but no time to cast them . so i decided to try susher.

thank you for your time

if anyone want i'm looking for some suggestion about cards to take out from my deck.

[Savo]

+ 1 gerrard battlecry

In the eye of chaos is a bomb. not only vs control deck but vs a lot of combo and burn deck

vexing susher its a bomb. i know it go under the creature removal spot but i suppose people side them out at the second match:). and sincerly i find myself a lot of time with the hand full of hateful card for control deck but no time to cast them . so i decided to try susher.


Gerrard Battlecry... ???

In the eye of chaos is great. I play 2x maindeck along with 2x city of solitude. This deck looses only vs blue.

Hand full of hateful cards but no time to cast them? You centred the point! Time is what our side must improve vs Blue decks. My solution? 4x carpet of flowers!

[Opax]

Gerrard battlecry was a test. i'm searching an alternative finisher, and i always wonder to beat with the enchantress :)
by the way i'm going to cut it out.

About carpet of flower : If they arrange a counterbalance lock with a drop of 3 on the top 3 card i'll have an hard match so i decide to use susher. i think it let you make your game.
sincerly i think is not mana our problem. with a cb on second turn carpets will give us 2 more mana at our 3rd turn that is not a lot. i'll test them by the way and we will see.

[Sevryn]

About my deck
i'm playing 63 card and i need to reduce them to 60-61. but sincerly i don't know what to take out .

In the eye of chaos is a bomb. not only vs control deck but vs a lot of combo and burn deck

ESG give me the win a lot of time. a lot better than mox according to me. used a lot of time a antidaze and spellspierce

karakas is very useful in some match but sincerly i don't know if mine manabase can have 1 more non- basic land in.

vexing susher its a bomb. i know it go under the creature removal spot but i suppose people side them out at the second match:). and sincerly i find myself a lot of time with the hand full of hateful card for control deck but no time to cast them . so i decided to try susher.

thank you for your time

if anyone want i'm looking for some suggestion about cards to take out from my deck.

First of all, with 63 cards you only have 19 lands? I am running 21 with a 60 card deck and feel it is just barely adequate. This might be part of why you are mulling to 5 a lot.

What I would cut:
-1 ground seal (having 1 gives you an out against Loam decks, but drawing 2 in a game is really meh)
-1 in the eye of chaos (tutor it when you need it)
-1 aura of silence (move it to SB, you have O.ring as a catch-all solution game 1)
-1 mirri's guile (2 is better, but you need the space)
-1 sigil (you still have 2 win conditions, but less of a chance to draw them)
-1 karakas (too situational for MD)
-1 elvish spirit guide (it's this or solitary, and i like having 3 solitary)
+1 Savannah
+2 forest (up to 21 lands)
+1 Sterling Grove (it's like the 2nd copy of seal/eye/sigil all at the same time)

As far as alternate win conditions, I run Sacred Mesa in addition to WoWar and Sigil. It has decent utility before winning just in making chumps, and it lets you really abuse Serra's Sanctum to its fullest. I think it is better than Gerrard's Battle Cry, at least. Another alternative is the Pandemonium/Saproling Burst combo. Another is Helix Pinnacle. All that said, I think a 1/1 split of WoWar and Sigil is probably the best.

[Sevryn]

double post, please delete.

[Opax]

What I would cut:
-1 ground seal (having 1 gives you an out against Loam decks, but drawing 2 in a game is really meh)
-1 in the eye of chaos (tutor it when you need it)
-1 aura of silence (move it to SB, you have O.ring as a catch-all solution game 1)
-1 mirri's guile (2 is better, but you need the space)
-1 sigil (you still have 2 win conditions, but less of a chance to draw them)
-1 karakas (too situational for MD)
-1 elvish spirit guide (it's this or solitary, and i like having 3 solitary)
+1 Savannah
+2 forest (up to 21 lands)
+1 Sterling Grove (it's like the 2nd copy of seal/eye/sigil all at the same time)

As far as alternate win conditions, I run Sacred Mesa in addition to WoWar and Sigil. It has decent utility before winning just in making chumps, and it lets you really abuse Serra's Sanctum to its fullest. I think it is better than Gerrard's Battle Cry, at least. Another alternative is the Pandemonium/Saproling Burst combo. Another is Helix Pinnacle. All that said, I think a 1/1 split of WoWar and Sigil is probably the best.


-1 ground seal: i know its a dead card but i play 2 because in my meta there are a lot of black based deck. according to me it gives a solid answer to reanimator, dredge and other black deck using volrath or witness recursion.

- 1 in the eye of chaos: i think i'll cut the 2nd of it. A lot of time it kills itself after a replenish.

-1 aura of silence: i know oblivion is better as removal but aura works well just staying on the board, and usually if there is a quasali on the table i disenchant my own O-ring with my aura. And i think aura is a good lock for a combo deck. Sincerly i'll probably prefer 1 aura instead of 1 O-ring. I'll think about that.

- 1 mirri's guile: i don't know, its a good proposal but it's an hard choice.

-1 sigil: No, i'm looking for 1 more finisher because a lot of black deck has start to put in sideboard sadistic sacrament and having a turn 1: swamp, dark ritual, sadistic sacrament on my WoW and Sigils is not so funny.

- 1 Karakas: i was just thinking about it, but when i decided to play it i didn't know that has been reworded. Now target are only Iona, gaddok and marit lage. ( in case the switch is for 1 forest)

- 1 ESG: i think i need 3 of them at least for having a good backup from them. 3 is the right number playing 2 its very random. I have thinked to play 4 in sideboard too and side them in when i need to have a fast open. Sincerly i don't know.

+1 savannah and +2 forest: sincerly i think this deck need 2 land and 1 growth/sprawl to engine. According to me a 19/60 or 20/61 its enought. do you agree??



About finisher i've tested quite all of them and this is my opinion about them :

Pande-burst: strong but 2 card.

hoofpring of the stag: to slow

Word of wind: not a real wincon. if the opponent know how to play will not concede and start timing and you will go to a draw ( that's not what we want)

Primal order: strong clock but its too situational

Sacred mesa: mana expensive, but pehalps the stronger one out of Wowar and sigil.

Helix pinnacle: very funny, but too fragile(EE at 1 and Deed at 1), the stronger in a mirror i think.

Luminarch ascension: i think this one is playable in side for control deck and mirror. 4 turn is not a lot if you have it in your opening hands. What do you think ??

Opalescence + Parallax wave: really really funny but not playable XD

I'm thinking a new one with the new ench terra eternal + living lands. I'll test it. (so i was testing gerrard)


I'll have some test and then i'll repost my list as i have 1 more tournament in a week :)


Thank you for your time Sevryn and sorry for my horrible english.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Your manabase seems fine. 19 lands with ESGs and Growths is fine for a 60 card deck. Cut 1 Eye, 1 Sigil and 1 Guile.

Also, change either O. Ring or Aura of Silence to Seal of Primordium.

[caiomarcos]

What you guys think of Immolation nowadays?

It is an old tech against Meddling Mage, but now we have Dark Confidant (an early, unanswered Dark Confidant is very VERY dangerous), Ethersworn Canonist, Gaddock Teeg and whatnot.

It has the great advantage of being only one mana, but the disadvantage of being red. Did Lignify make this obsolete? Thoughts?

[grahf]

What you guys think of Immolation nowadays?

If you needed creature point removal, why not just play Seal of Fire? It effectively does the same thing against creatures, and could go to the dome for the last two points if need be.

The deck in the opening post of this thread has 3 Seals of Fire in its 75, but things have changed a lot in the past three years. There are a lot of things Seal won't answer, and yes, Lignify does answer them better (huge creatures, Iona, etc).

[ClearSkies]

If you needed creature point removal, why not just play Seal of Fire? It effectively does the same thing against creatures, and could go to the dome for the last two points if need be.

The deck in the opening post of this thread has 3 Seals of Fire in its 75, but things have changed a lot in the past three years. There are a lot of things Seal won't answer, and yes, Lignify does answer them better (huge creatures, Iona, etc).

Won't people usually name Green with Iona? Oblivion Ring is also a nice answer to targetable permanents through.
Then, there are more drastic stuff like Humility.

[caiomarcos]

If you needed creature point removal, why not just play Seal of Fire? It effectively does the same thing against creatures, and could go to the dome for the last two points if need be.

The deck in the opening post of this thread has 3 Seals of Fire in its 75, but things have changed a lot in the past three years. There are a lot of things Seal won't answer, and yes, Lignify does answer them better (huge creatures, Iona, etc).

You're right, I completely forgot about Seal. Anyway, neither Seal nor Immolation are seeing play, and I think for those that play with red (I have WoW and Blood Moon) those two cards are again great options due to Confidants and Canonists. I'll test some.


Won't people usually name Green with Iona? Oblivion Ring is also a nice answer to targetable permanents through.
Then, there are more drastic stuff like Humility.

O. Ring is 3 to cast, another kind of answer I think.

[Holiday]

What is Enchantress's best answer to post-board Gaddock Teeg?

[Otter]

What is Enchantress's best answer to post-board Gaddock Teeg?

Why exactly do we need to remove him? He stops us from casting Sigil and Replenish, but that's about it (maybe Moat, if you run it). We still get to draw our entire deck and surely somewhere in there, there'll be at least a single copy of Lignify, O-Ring, or WoW. If their hate is just Teeg, I'd call that a good thing. If they're backing him up with something like Reverent Silence, then I'd go with Karmic Justice.

edit -- Oops, they can't cast Reverent Silence with Teeg out. In that case, I think we can say that Teeg poses pretty much no threat at all.

[arcboundravager2]

What is Enchantress's best answer to post-board Gaddock Teeg?

teeg doesnt really matter against us. he doesnt do much aside from being a bear. he is easily removed via o-ring and doesnt do anything. he dies to a WoW or a sacred mesa and granted you cant cast replenish or sigil they cant cast FoW or any disruption like that. if anything im happy anytime a teeg has been boarded in.

[Darkprophet]

Hello, I'm new here, but, I thought I would post up my deck list for some opinions. Currently, the decks I can test against are U/W Counter slivers, Belcher, Life combo, Suicide Black, my incomplete Survival Elves, and my Faerie deck. Me and my team are working on proxying out a gauntlet of the top decks to test against to better prepare against the decks, a work out changes to our decks. I have access to some stuff, but, more duals and stuff like Moat I don't have access to, and I'd need a few weeks to save up the money to get them (after all, bills come first.) Anyways, here's my deck, and my results against the decks i can play against.

Land (20)
4 Windswept Heath
2 Serra's Sanctum
1 Karakas
1 Savannah
1 Taiga
8 Forest
3 Plains

Creatures (4)
4 Argothian Enchantress

Spells (2)
2 Replenish

Enchantments (34)
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Sterling Grove
4 Elephant Grass
4 Echantress's Presence
3 Solitary Confinement
3 Runed Halo
2 City of Solitude
2 Suppression Field
1 Aura of Silence
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 Words of War

SIDEBOARD
3 Wheel of Sun and Moon
3 Choke
3 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Suppression Field
1 Aura of Silence
1 Ground Seal
1 Sacred Ground
1 Karmic Justice
1 City of Solitude


As far as the decks I have been able to play against, this is the usual results:

Life Combo: I usually lose this match unless I get Suppression Field down on turn 2, and keep it in play through his bullet board and Living Wishes. He has no Main Deck hate against it, so, if I can get Suppression Field and Sterling Grove down, I win. this is usually 70/30 in Life's favor, due to the consistency of turn 3 10 billion life.

Post Board: -2 City of Solitude, +1 Suppression Field, +1 Aura of Silence

U/W Counter slivers: This can be a hard match up without a good hand. I cut my opponents deck each time, but, he still ends up with a god hand almost every game. Suppression Field early can help against Vials, and City of Solitude either resolves and shuts off his counters, or allows me to resolve something more important by wasting his counters. 4 Elephant Grass really helps this match up. This is usually 50/50

Post Board: - 3 Runed Halo, - 1 Aura of Silence, - 1 Oblivion Ring, + 3 Choke, + 1 City of Solitude, + 1 Suppression Field

Belcher: I hate this matchup. 90/10 my favor pre-board, because turn 1, before I even get to play my first card, i'm either dead, or facing 12 goblins. if I play first, and don't die turn 1 to belcher, Runed Halo comes down on Belcher, or Elephant Grass if he's got the goblins from Empty the Warrens. Suppression Field is also a great card, making him need 5 for activate belcher usually is a 2 turn process if he fails to activate or kill on the first one.

Post Board: - 2 Replenish, - 2 City of Solitude, + 3 Ethersworn Cannonist, +1 Suppression Field

Suicide Black: This matchup is one of the easiest if I can get Elephant Grass out. However, stupid turn 1 shenanigans can make this a hard matchup. This deck can potentially ruin my hand turn 1 (I know, because it's my own Suicide deck, and, I've gotten turn 1 Dark Rit into Triple Duress against Belcher.) I don't even have a sideboard plan against this deck. I need to focus more on Enchantress' Presence because of Diabolic Edicts.

No idea on Sideboard plans.

Faeries: I played this matchup once, since I just finished the Faerie deck 2 days ago, handed it to my team mate, and played against it. I did pretty badly. I was able to drop down an enchantress before he drew into a ton of counters and Mistbinds, but, once his Turn 1 suspended Ancestral Vision resolved, it was pretty much over. 2 Elephant Grass both got countered with Spellstutter Sprites, and City of Solitude was Force of Will'd. Post Board, they have too much to counter, but, it's a race. I doubt I got my sideboarding 100% correct, only time and testing will tell.

Post Board: - 3 Runed Halo, - 1 Oblivion Ring, + 3 Choke, + 1 City of Solitude

any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

[Gibbie_X]

I would seriously cut City of Solitude, and move Suppresion Field to the board. You don't need that hassle in the first match. Spring it on them in the second, especially against Loam. My current meta strategy for anything :u: is main deck Choke. Against any blue deck with creatures, it is a must counter, particularly when you have a Grass going. They can't attack, you have all day to set up. My strategy against Fairies in particular has been to make them counter everything they can, so they run out in fairly short order.

If you want to have something against Combo, which is why you have Cannonist in the side board. If you want to roll with domething like that, use Rule of Law, it's an enchantment, so you can draw from it. The Runed Halos are give or take, I'd say, and most here would say, good for certain things, dead everywhere else.

So I say, cut City, Field, and 1 Halo, go with Choke, at least 1 O-ring, and a Ground Seal. It draws you card, in more ways than one. The rest is up to you. But I would have atleast 2 Sacred Grounds in the side board. You need your lands.

[Darkprophet]

I suppression Field really that bad main deck? I had more O-Rings main deck and I felt like it made my matchups so bad that I couldn't win game 1 against anything.

I like the ground seal main deck idea, as well as an extra Sacred Ground in the SB.

I'll mess around with a few of these tweaks and see how they work out for me.

[GrimJack]

Shifting Gears: I'm tweaking my Enchantress manabase to go to the 3x Chrome Mox build for a few weeks to see how it does with getting it out on turn 1. In contrast though, the debate of using 3x Elvish Spirit Guide instead seems better, as it is anti-Daze/Spell Pierce tech, doesnt cause as much card disadvantage, and in a pinch can serve as an AWC. As I havent played either build yet, is Chrome Mox still optimal? Is ESG the poor man's solution to no Moxen?

Edit 2/16/10: I paged back a month or so ago and found the big discussion regarding this topic. I'll give ESG a spin first, and se how it goes. The main reason I considered Mox was to get turn 1 Runed Halo out against combo, but the points have all been made. Thx!

Edit: 2/25/10: Chrome Mox is definitely the way to go. I made my final tweaks to this list and this is what Im running at the SCG 10k this weekend.

4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Sterling Grove

4 Utopia Sprawl
2 Wild Growth
3 Chrome Mox

4 Elephant Grass
3 Solitary Confinement
3 Runed Halo
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Moat
1 Mirri's Guile
2 City of Solitude

2 Sigil of Empty Throne
1 Words of War

1 Replenish

6 Forests
4 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
3 Savannah
1 Taiga
2 Serras Sanctum

SB
3 Wheel of Sun and Moon
2 Karmic Justice
2 Choke
2 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Aura of Silence
1 Ground Seal
1 Replenish

[Gibbie_X]

Think of paying 3 for a fetch land, 3 for a Grove.

O-ring is a judgement and meta call. It can take care of Teeg and possibly a Counterbalance, or even a Chalice.

[Dack]

- I must say that i really doubt the 1 MD / 1 SB Replenish.
For me this card must be played in a x3 MD SB mix (I play 3 Replenish MD) because it saves you from so many things ! Imo the unban of this card made Enchantress competitive. A resolved Replenish often means gg.

But, maybe that the addition of the 3 Mox really allows you to settle your drawing motor really faster and then gives you a better by-pass to counter ? Please tell me about the Moxs efficacity :smile:

- I'd also cut 1 Sigil and add 1 Oblivion Ring more instead. 1 Sigil/1 Wow seem enough for me

- I find Mirri's Guile really useless. Its efficacity is on the early game, and as a 1 slot you'll have to tutor it. But in the first turns I'd never tutor it instead of a Confinement, or an Elephant Grass...The weakness of Enchantress is the early game, so why would you want to tutor Mirri's Guile instead of an enchant that really offers a protection ? And on the middle/late game, Mirri's Guile is so damn useless because you'll have your drawing tutor in place. I really don't understand why so many decks run this card.

- City of solitude MD is also a choice I wouldn't make, unless your meta justifies it.

- I must admit that the idea of a T1 Runed Halo against combo is really nice :cool:, but you will quickly need the Groves to protect it. How did it go so well in your Combo MUs ?

[GrimJack]

- I must say that i really doubt the 1 MD / 1 SB Replenish.
For me this card must be played in a x3 MD SB mix (I play 3 Replenish MD) because it saves you from so many things ! Imo the unban of this card made Enchantress competitive. A resolved Replenish often means gg.
Sure it does; 1x MD Replensih was the last decision I made in the final decklist. It came down to choosing between 2x Confinement vs 3x as I have it. In the Zoo heavy meta I am entering into this weekend at the SCG 10k, I believe I will need Confinement rather than combo win. Ill SB it in vs. Discard or Control if necessary, but for the average Game 1 matchup, I think Im better off with defense than a combo swing with mulitple Replenishes.


But, maybe that the addition of the 3 Mox really allows you to settle your drawing motor really faster and then gives you a better by-pass to counter ? Please tell me about the Moxs efficacity :smile:
The Moxen were rockin' for me on Wednesday night. Turn 1 Halos and or Enchantresses were giving me the edge to stabilize immediately. Granted, I was aware of what my opponent was playing for Game 1 but I really like getting started on Card draw a turn earlier. In many cases I needed the extra W mana, which made it preferable to ESG.


- I'd also cut 1 Sigil and add 1 Oblivion Ring more instead. 1 Sigil/1 Wow seem enough for me
I did some research, and most of the recent Top 8 decklists were running 3x wincons rather than 2. I shifted down to 20 lands and added the second Sigil on Wednesday. I completely respect your opinion on this though. I can see it either way.


- I find Mirri's Guile really useless. Its efficacity is on the early game, and as a 1 slot you'll have to tutor it.
1.) I never tutor for it, and 2.) its good because it still works under Confinement. When its early game, it helps you establish defense by Pondering every turn, and late game, well its normally just "Draw 3-4 cards" for G. Its no worse than drawing a redundant Elephant Grass late game. I find it very worthwhile, especially since I dont run Enlightened Tutor.


- City of solitude MD is also a choice I wouldn't make, unless your meta justifies it.
I expect as much Fish as Zoo this Sunday for the 10k. We'll see...


- I must admit that the idea of a T1 Runed Halo against combo is really nice :cool:, but you will quickly need the Groves to protect it. How did it go so well in your Combo MUs ?
Its my primary reasons for the Moxen, but of course it depends on knowing what your playing against. I found that the combo decks normally dont have answers to it, so protecting it with Grove is irrelevant. It sticks against Belcher ad ANT well enough.

[Dack]

I did some research, and most of the recent Top 8 decklists were running 3x wincons rather than 2. I shifted down to 20 lands and added the second Sigil on Wednesday. I completely respect your opinion on this though. I can see it either way.

My bad, I also play 2 Sigil / 1 WoW. Thought I had cut this 2nd Sigil, but in fact no ^^


1.) I never tutor for it, and 2.) its good because it still works under Confinement. When its early game, it helps you establish defense by Pondering every turn, and late game, well its normally just "Draw 3-4 cards" for G. Its no worse than drawing a redundant Elephant Grass late game. I find it very worthwhile, especially since I dont run Enlightened Tutor.

I still think that an Elephant Grass early game is superior, even if in late game I agree that both are just drawers...I just don't see when I could play Mirri's Guile instead of another card in early game. There are too many priorities.


Its my primary reasons for the Moxen, but of course it depends on knowing what your playing against. I found that the combo decks normally dont have answers to it, so protecting it with Grove is irrelevant. It sticks against Belcher ad ANT well enough.

Ok for Belcher. But the ANT versions I can play against all play Rushing River. And without 2 Groves, it's gg.

I'll show up my list soon.

[Dack]

Here is my list :


MD
1 Savannah
1 Taiga
2 Serra's Sanctum
4 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
9 Forest

4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence

2 Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 Words of War

1 Lignify
1 Moat
1 Runed Halo
3 Solitary Confinement
3 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Elephant Grass
4 Oblivion Ring
4 Sterling Grove

3 Replenish

SB
1 Sacred Ground
1 Blood Moon
1 Warmth
1 Compost
1 Aura of Silence
2 Choke
2 Ground Seal
2 Karmic Justice
2 City of Solitude
2 Rule of Law


Please tell me what you think. I know there are some slots to debate on ^^

[Sevryn]

Please tell me what you think. I know there are some slots to debate on ^^

Landbase: looks great!

Maindeck:

4 Oblivion Ring/1 Lignify: really solid removal package. Maybe a bit overkill even, you could try dropping to 3 O.Rings to add another utility slot (maindeck Blood Moon maybe??).

3 Replenish: I really like running only 2 maindeck and having the third in the SB. Some matchups it is not very strong, and drawing multiples is weak. Other matchups it is a complete bomb that you love to draw, and then I can board in #3.

Overall lack of one drops. Doing SOMETHING turn 1 is pretty important, so I would at least add a Mirri's Guile. I personally run the full 8 land auras. Other people run a combination of Elvish Spirit Guide and Chrome Mox to try to power out a turn 1 enchantress (ESG can also be used to pay for daze!)


Finally, I like running a singleton Enlightened Tutor. I feel it is very strong in this deck, dropping your enchantment density by a bit for a chance to draw exactly what you need.


Sideboard:

-Ground seal is pretty weak grave hate compared to the absolute beast that is Wheel of Sun and Moon. It completely demolishes Dredge, and hits every other grave based strategy pretty effectively, too.

-Compost: I've never felt like I needed to bring in MORE black hate, usually Elephant Grass completely fucks them up anyway.

-Rule of Law: if you're worried about Storm, 2 copies isn't enough. You need to drop it in a time frame that matters, and if you have to sac Grove for it, that's turn 3, which is a turn too late. So, either run 4 copies so you can try to mulligan into a turn 2 Rule of Law, or just punt the storm matchup completely (which is what I recommend... if storm is big in your meta, enchantress is the wrong deck to play).

-Warmth: I run two, because it's nice to drop it early and they stack nicely if you happen to draw both.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

-Solitaire-(Enchantress)&p=355383&viewfull=1#post355383]I ran basically this list at the SCG open today. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?5302-[Deck) I was 5-2 then got a game loss when I got distracted talking to people and showed up late to my match. A mull to five didn't help.

Changes from that decklist

-1 Aura of Silence
+1 Oblivion Ring
-2 Kirtar's Desire
+1 Solitary Confinement
+1 Wild Growth

SB was:

3x Choke
3x Carpet of Flowers
3x Baneslayer Angel
2x Island Sanctuary
1x Aura of Silence
1x Karmic Justice
1x Sacred Ground
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon

Round 1: vs Life

There's really not a lot to say here. This is virtually an auto-loss.

Round 2: vs U/W tempo?/NotGoyf?

Elephant Grass just rocked the shit out of him. Post-board Karmic Justice + Choke sealed said rocking.

Round 3 vs Zoo

Now this is a dicey match-up. I'm not feeling much better than 55-60%, which seems weak for aggro. Thus the Island Sanctuaries in the board. Game 1 I win, game 2 I get careless and walk into PoP, game 3 I mull to 5, as does he, he has the Pridemage for my Presence, and I fail to play Island Sanctuary after topdecking an Angel, with mana tied up in Grass. I don't remember if he would have killed me anyway, but there were a couple major misteps on my part this round.

Still, I think this a matchup that is in need of tech.

Round 4 vs. Lands!

Basically a bye.

Round 5 vs Geddon Stax

Again, basically a bye.

Round 6 vs. Merfolk

Game 1 Grasses prevent him from doing anything, and I ESG a Daze (Saucy!) on my Enchantress.

Game 1 he's mana screwed, and this is a pretty good matchup anyway. Game 2 he blind hits my 2 Windswept Heaths with Pithing Needle. It isn't until 10 minutes after the match that either of us realize my solution of ESGing a Sprawl onto Sanctum doesn't work. I ride my cheaty-Sanctum to victory. I probably would have won game 3 though, so, eh.

Round 7 vs. Counter-Top

He's a nice guy, but clearly didn't realize what he was doing. It's not valid testing when the opponent FoWs your Exploration.

Round 8 vs. Landstill

See opening.




So I feel pretty confident about this list. I lost to my misplays against Zoo, a game loss, and an auto-loss match-up. The SB was also rocking all day, although Island Sanctuary needs further testing. Baneslayer Angel was amazing everytime.

[Zlatzman]

The search function is a bit broken, so I'm not sure how many times this has been discussed before:

How many turns did it typically take for Zoo to get the advantage? Could Humility be part of the solution by helping protect our other lock-pieces? It does weaken our draw engine, but this might be tolerable. Keeping Solitary Confinement alive under Humility does seem like a challenge though.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

I don't think anything above 3 mana is the solution here. By that point in the game, A) they're usually in burn reach, and B)1/1 are still threats when you don't run blockers.


Also, unfortunately I didn't get to test any vs. Reanimator. Still curious about this.

Also, Carpet of Flowers is amazing. I can't believe they errata'd that card.

[arebennian]

Could you post the list please? The hyperlink doesn't seem to be working...

[Holiday]

Spatula, your sideboard looks really strong against our tough matchups. I like the Baneslayer angel SST. Were people bringing their StP and Paths back in for game 3?

Is combo a bad enough matchup that you don't bother with any SB slots? I was running 3 Ethersworn Canonist this weekend, but I've been seeing a lot of combo lately.

[anonymos]

Just thinking from a vacuum here, but how good are warmth and blood moon against zoo? I know I have been playing blood moon locally because of a friend with 43 land anyway and kind of think it could be interesting. What about extra confinements for them?

I know this is going to sound silly, but what about Hidden Herd?

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=5783

Seeing this guy around, makes me want to build enchantress beatdown again.

[Holiday]

I tested warmth against goblins and zoo. Long story short, it just wasn't that good. Both decks can get around it pretty easily. When I bring in a SB card I want it to be game breaking rather than just minorly annoying. The aggro match-ups, at least for me, are better than any deck running counters, so I rather keep SB open for Choke and Carpet of Flowers.

I haven't tested Bloodmoon, I'm not sure it would be game breaking against decks running red. Our matchup versus 43 land is favorable enough already without it, IMO.

[Dack]

@Sevryn
Thanks for you comment !
- I tried to cut 1 Replenish and 1 O Ring to add 1 Enlightened Tutor and 1 Wild Growth (I really don't see the point of playing Mirri's Guile, I don't like this card, even if I might test it ; and the Blood Moon is better in SB I think.). The Tutor has been useful, it's a nice drawing, I think I'll let it MD.
- For the SB, I think Ground Seal is better for a quicker response to graveyard-based threats : if something dangerous is already in the grave (let's take the extreme case : against Reanimator, T1 Entomb->Iona ^^), the Wheel is useless, whereas the Seal can still save you from the reanimation. It doesn't weaken too much the Dredge MU (because there the Wheel is better), and enhances a little bit the difficult Reanimator MU.
I think I'll drop the Rule of Law SB, cause the combo is just too hard. It opens 2 slots, any idea ?


@SpatulaOfTheAges
Hi, nice to see some kind of performance with Enchantress :) May you post your list, as the link doesn't work ? Also, can you comment on my list, I posted it a few posts before ?

I also have questions for you :
- Baneslayer ? What MU does it improve ? When to play it ? Which card do you cut to play them ? Please explain me cause I don't see the goal of playing this card, and I'd like to learn more of your choice ^^

- Also, is Carpet of Flowers really superior to Choke ? Seems so...

- And, what are the advantages of Island Sanctuary to Elephant Grass in early game + Moat after ? (maybe you already play those cards, I can't see your list), but tell me about this SB choice.

[anonymos]

I'm just trying to throw ideas against the wall to see what sticks. The way I see Blood Moon, it turns off Nacatl and friends at least for a while. It gets in under Teeg. They can't fetch for their basics. I do agree about the back breaking vs annoying thing. The reason that I think the Herd might be feasible is simply because it forces them to either slow down their mana production/smoothing or deal with a blocker that can take down a lot of the guys in their deck. Either that or it gets a piece of burn out of their hand.

Other things that'll help slow them down with CMC 3 or less. I'm sticking to G, W, R enchantments for options here. I haven't tested it much (no local zoo players somehow), so I'm not sure if it merits looking outside the realm of enchantments yet.

Briar Patch - -1/-0 to all creatures attacking you (seems not good enough, but helps slow)
Convalescent Care - when at 5 or less life during upkeep, gain 3 and draw a card (seems marginal, but will help stabilize with extra card in hand)
Cornered Market - players can't play permanents or nonbasic lands with the same name as another permanent in play (no double nacatl beatdown if played early enough)
Cover of Winter - http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=121140 (requires redoing lands as snow lands and may not be enough)
Dueling Grounds - only 1 creature can attack and only 1 can block (I like this until they get multiple pridemages)
Equipoise - REMOVED FROM LIST BECAUSE I'M DUMB!
Ghostly Prison - pay 2 for each creature to attack (taxing effects are useful)
Hall of Gemstone - http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=3390 (makes them pick one color for the turn so they can't necessarily make threats and burn you that turn)
Island Sanctuary - already mentioned by someone
Kirtar's Desire - only stops one guy and already mentioned
Lignify - green version of pacifism basically
Mudslide - http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=184727 - slows them down to a crawl, especially with elephant grass
Opal Avenger - turns into a 3/5 guy when you hit 10 (may be too little too late, but can block and kill a lot of their guys and their paths will be gone as it's game 2 or 3)
Opal Guardian - turns into 3/4 flier with pro red - (blocks all their guys but goyf and they can't burn it out, but costs WWW)
Planar Collapse - wrath during your upkeep if there are 4 or more guys on board - (easy to play around)
Sunspring Expedition - gain 8 life on demand after 3 landfalls (helps get out of burn range to buy a turn hopefully)

Of the ones I found, I think mudslide has the most potential because it can also be brought in vs. merfolk and a lot of other creature based strategies that don't run a lot of fliers.

[caiomarcos]

Mudslide seems amazing! What flyers are there today? Only Tombstalker came to mind as a real threat, but while Mudslide does not hit 'Stalker, it hits all kinds of utility creatures, from Lavamancer to mana producing elves and of course, beaters.

Also, the decision to pay two and untap is made before the draw, so the opponent has less information to work with and may end with dead draws or negating their own draw.

EDIT: On the downside, they get to attack once, not good against goblins, Empty the Warrens and such.

[Dack]

Stop me if I'm wrong but,
Elephant Grass isn't enough against Zoo nowadays ?

[Otter]

Equipoise - http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=3710 (buys turns where they only get one or two attackers instead of the whole team)

I believe that you're misreading the card. It triggers on your upkeep, so it'll phase their team out on your turn and then dump them back into play for their turn to hit you with all of them.

[anonymos]

Whoops! Well, at least it keeps me from hunting anoter weird card.

[Julian23]

Played Enchantress to a 5-4 in Madrid. Meeeh, I'm kinda frustrated, actually don't wanna talk about it. The night before the tournament a had very intense discussion with 3 fellow Russian/Venezuelanian players at our hostel about Enchantress, one of them making Day 2. Let me say their liste derivate from what we have been discussing here quite a lot. Maybe I'll find the time to talk about it once I can recover...just returned home. My girlfriened would kill me if she knew I was posting here instead of going to bed...

[dontbiteitholmes]

Having Mirri's Guile really makes the deck play differently, if you've never tried it you should atleast test it, I think it's good personally.
Also Mudslide is just an ultra crappy Ghostly Prison, and yes Ghostly prison rocks really hard. When I used to play Enchantress I ran 1x main and it won me more games then I care to count. Your mileage may vary but I often found myself tutoring it up with Grove instead of Moat when (W) mana was the difference and it saved my ass in many games I would have lost otherwise. Of course this was pre-Goyf so like I said, your mileage may vary.

[Darkenslight]

So play both. Mudslide forces your opponent to make a decision without full information; Ghostly Prison makes them decide what to attack with. It adds an extra denial resource to the deck; combat denial.

[Oiolosse]

Dueling Grounds? I find this card exceptional, especially paired with a Maze of Ith -or a Kor Haven.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

8x Enchantresses
4x Sprawl
4x Grass
4x Ground Seal
3x Confinement
3x Replenish
3x Grove
2x Gaea's Touch
2x Exploration
1x Words of War
1x O. Ring
1x Sylvan Library
1x Seal of Primordium
1x Wild Growth
3x ESG
4x HEath
3x Savannah
2x Sanctum
1x Taiga
9x Forest

That should work. Wasn't running Kirtar's desire or Aura of Silence, as I mentioned, for +1 Wild Growth, +1 Confinement and 1 O. Ring.

re: Mudslide - 3 mana makes this iffy, but looks like it's worth testing.

re: Zoo in general - The most common situation I found myself in in testing is having one Enchantress out and digging for something relevant turn 3 or 4. Grass at that point can be played around with enough burn, as can anything that deals with the attack step. If we are looking for a card that hits the attack step, we want something that works WITH Elephant Grass. Dueling Grounds doesn't. Ghostly Prison and Mudslide do.

Honestly, I'm thinking of Rest for the Weary.

[anonymos]

A lot of the options I mentioned aren't exactly fix alls. They are more like thick mud to slow them down. I didn't want to go into non-enchantment options with my search. I like drawing the cards too much.

RE: Dueling Grounds - I was just posting anything that fit my search requirements at that point. It had to work to slow them down some how. It had to be an enchantment in color (R, G, W) and it had to have CMC 3 or less. I agree that it isn't the best option.

NINJA EDIT: If you're thinking about Rest for the Weary, why not play Heroes Reunion and get a more consistent life gain out of it? It's a guaranteed 7 instead of 8.
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=23183

[wcm8]

I love Enchantress, because it is one of the few decks that, if it gets its engine online, you have a very good chance of either tutoring or outright drawing all of the answers in your library. However, to make the deck remain consistent, you need to stick with playsets of the essentials, which leaves little room for toolbox answers. Thus, calling Enchantress itself (and the card choices to an extent) a metagame decision is spot-on. Luckily, games are decided on a best-of-three basis, and this is a deck where sideboard choices can mean the difference between going 8-0 or 0-8 in a tournament.

The downside of it, of course, is that it more mentally demanding than most other decks. There are many 'workable' hands, but the way the game permutes is different each time and really requires some important choices. A simpler deck like Zoo can forgive misplays, but with Enchantress each turns' choices can determine a win or a loss.

There was discussion several pages back about how Enchantress will never be truly competitive until a new powerful enchantment card gets printed. I am ambivalent about this viewpoint, but one thing against the deck is that many cards that hurt it have been printed. When the deck first started out, you didn't have to worry about things like Krosan Grip or Quasali Pridemage. If your goal is to win, at this point you might indeed be better off playing a 'tier 1' deck archetype and leaving Enchantress back home for the casual games.

However, I think everyone in this thread loves it for its rogue-ish charm, not to mention that it can on occasion win major tournaments. In certain metagames with lots of creature-type decks, it can really do well. But if your meta has tons of combo, it's basically a lost cause -- not that you can't win some of the rounds, but luck of the draw will play a big factor. Again, this is all pretty much repeating the main points of this thread, but perhaps someone jumping into it on the last page might like this little summary.

With that all said, here is the list I run. It is pretty conservative, but if anyone has some suggestions for alterations I'd be happy to hear them. I haven't had much opportunity to playtest it extensively as I've only recently gotten back into Magic (and don't really do the MWS thing yet), but at a recent local tournament I went 4-1-1. Not too bad since it's been awhile.

20 Lands:
4 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Taiga
1 Savannah
2 Serrah's Sanctum
4 Plains
7 Forest

32 Engine/Staples:
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress' Presence
4 Sterling Grove
3 Solitary Confinement
2 Replenish
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Elephant Grass
2 Wild Growth
2 Exploration
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 Words of War
1 Moat

8 Toolbox:
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Ground Seal
1 Choke
1 Karmic Justice
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Aura of Silence

Sideboard:
4 Orim's Chant
2 City of Solitude
2 Choke
1 Replenish
1 CoP: Red
1 Sacred Ground
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Rule of Law
1 Aura of Silence

One of the worst matchups I had was a reanimation deck packing Iona. Other than hoping to get the Relic or Ground Seal in play before they can get her out, there's really not much you can do. The green half of your deck lacks any answers to her and at best can only delay her... Does anyone have any suggestions for this sort of matchup, or is it just a lost cause? I only encounter this sort of thing rarely, but when it does happen...

[Otter]

One of the worst matchups I had was a reanimation deck packing Iona. Other than hoping to get the Relic or Ground Seal in play before they can get her out, there's really not much you can do. The green half of your deck lacks any answers to her and at best can only delay her... Does anyone have any suggestions for this sort of matchup, or is it just a lost cause? I only encounter this sort of thing rarely, but when it does happen...

There were just like three pages of the thread talking about Iona. Anyways, long story short -- Lignify wrecks her and if you see her a lot, you can play a Karakas and try to draw into it.

[Patrunkenphat7]

Why are people straying away from Runed Halo? It helps a ton in the bad matchups for this deck and it's never a dead card.

[wcm8]

Why are people straying away from Runed Halo? It helps a ton in the bad matchups for this deck and it's never a dead card.

I think a lot of people have said that it's not always easy to swing WW early on, and by the time you can it may be too late. What exactly does it help with that other cards don't do as well or better?

I'll admit that I haven't tested it much, but in my experience there hasn't been a situation where I would have won a game if I had sideboarded it in instead of something else. YMMV

[Xero]

NINJA EDIT: If you're thinking about Rest for the Weary, why not play Heroes Reunion and get a more consistent life gain out of it? It's a guaranteed 7 instead of 8.
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=23183

You'd think that there would be more green or white enchantments that increase life totals, but Peace of Mind and Sunspring Expedition are the only two that don't completely blow.

[Patrunkenphat7]

I think a lot of people have said that it's not always easy to swing WW early on, and by the time you can it may be too late. What exactly does it help with that other cards don't do as well or better?

I'll admit that I haven't tested it much, but in my experience there hasn't been a situation where I would have won a game if I had sideboarded it in instead of something else. YMMV

I feel like it helps a ton vs. storm and belcher. It's maindeckable unlike something like Canonist or Chant.

[Sevryn]

Runed Halo is very good. Running it pretty much requires that you add more non-basics to the land base, going from:

0-1 Savannah
1 Taiga
0 Plateau

to:

4 Savannah
1 Taiga
1 Plateau

and probably adding 1-2 more fetchlands as well. This allows you to run 4 Runed Halos and really make the most of them, but it also makes you more vulnerable to Wasteland, especially the worst-case scenario of an enchanted non-basic. To fight this, you probably cut the Wild Growths, leaving just the Utopia Sprawls, and have to add some alternate acceleration (Chrome Mox or ESG). Which is fully possible. I'm just trying to point out that running Runed Halo is not as simple as just throwing them in the deck, a lot of other things have to be changed around them.

[wcm8]

running Runed Halo is not as simple as just throwing them in the deck, a lot of other things have to be changed around them.

Which is why I am hesitant to add them, certainly not as a 4-of. I think having a stable manabase is more important to Enchantress than the potential of having a good first-game matchup vs. those decks, because you are typically more likely to run into decks that run Wastelands and/or Stifle. An ideal first turn play is often just putting a WG/U Sprawl on a land in preparation for your next turn. Forests won't get blown up.

I suppose you can also maindeck Sacred Ground, but for each time you start protecting/enabling Runed Halo, you are hurting your toolbox and stability.

It's a good card, no doubt, but the Enchantress deck is tight as is.

[dontbiteitholmes]

So play both. Mudslide forces your opponent to make a decision without full information; Ghostly Prison makes them decide what to attack with. It adds an extra denial resource to the deck; combat denial.

I see the allure of Mudslide, but really I feel like Ghostly Prison is better 9/10 times in this deck.
W mana is much more available then R mana especially earlier in the game and in basic land form which is relevant.
Prison works before the first attack. This one is the huge point, if I search out a Ghostly Prison and drop it and they drop creatures into play untapped Ghostly Prison succeeds where Mudslide fails. It costs 4 mana for them to swing at me twice with their creature instead of getting the first attack free then 2 for the second. Really Ghostly Prison's main effect is that it slows down the game allowing you to take control. Example you don't want to be in a situation where you play Mudslide say turn 3 pass the turn, they attack with Goyf then play another Goyf and next turn they pay 2 and swing with double Goyf. Where the Mudslide is cute in that they have to make a decision before they draw, Prison is superior in that many times they have to make a decision involving creatures that were summoning sick last turn. I mean really how many turns is zoo passing the rock with no untapped creatures in play when they are not already in burn range? Then on the flipside how often does aggro w/blue already know the top card of their library before your EOT effectively negating any advantage Mudslide has over Prison.
Prison is more effective vs. Goblins because of Haste.
Prison is better vs. ETW tokens
Prison works vs. Vigilance (not that it's a big deal)
Prison works vs. manlands
Prison works vs. flyers
Prison works much better vs. Dredge
Prison works much better vs. decks with equipment

I mean really I could go through the entire Decks to beat and say Prison is better 99% of the time in those matchups.

I really don't see where I'd ever run Mudslide in the current meta. If I was going to run one of each I'd just run 2x Prisons instead. Prison is just much better at buying extra turns which is what you need, it is less situational then mudslide, effects more creatures, can't be circumvented by manlands and equipment, and is overall easier to cast. I don't see where the debate is on Mudslide being better outside of certain situations and even then if the opponent plays smart or gets lucky it negates any advantage over Prison. Even if they were to draw a disenchant they are still spending a turn paying mana to attack in effect so Prison is still doing work. So yeah Mudslide I'm just not seeing it.

Edit- Oh also fetching a dual out early to play Mudslide then having it Wasted could make the difference later in the game seeing as you run 2x red sources and both are duals and instead you could have got a basic and played Prison and been up a land. Another +1 for Prison. If you are playing a card with red mana in enchantress is really needs to be game breaking to justify it.

[Patrunkenphat7]

Runed Halo is very good. Running it pretty much requires that you add more non-basics to the land base, going from:

0-1 Savannah
1 Taiga
0 Plateau

to:

4 Savannah
1 Taiga
1 Plateau

and probably adding 1-2 more fetchlands as well. This allows you to run 4 Runed Halos and really make the most of them, but it also makes you more vulnerable to Wasteland, especially the worst-case scenario of an enchanted non-basic. To fight this, you probably cut the Wild Growths, leaving just the Utopia Sprawls, and have to add some alternate acceleration (Chrome Mox or ESG). Which is fully possible. I'm just trying to point out that running Runed Halo is not as simple as just throwing them in the deck, a lot of other things have to be changed around them.

That is a rather ridiculous exaggeration. You don't have to change the mana at all to run a 1 or even 2-of Runed Halo. It is relatively easy to stick on turn 2 with the manabase already in this deck, and even if you have to wait til turn 3, it's not bad. This entire post doesn't make any sense to me...

[Opax]

Hi All. Here to post My Madrid Experience. I'll say before start that we had some travel problem and after 5 hour late of the flight i arrange to arrive at the 1st day of tournament with only 4-5h of sleep and very very tired.

But going on this my list:

Lands (19)

7 forest
1 Karakas
1 mistyrain forest
1 Plains
2 Savannah
2 serra sanctum
1 Taiga
4 Windswept heath

Creature (7)

4 argothian enchantress
3 ESG

sorcery (2)

Replenish

Enchantment (32)

1 Aura of silence
4 elephant grass
4 Enchantress presence
2 ground seal
1 Lignify
2 mirri's guile
1 oblivion ring
2 replenish
1 sacred mesa
2 sigil of the empty throne
3 solitary confinement
3 sterling grove
4 utopia sprawl
3 wild growth
1 word of war

Side

1 Cop: Red
2 enlightened tutor
1 aethersworn canonist
1 In the eye of chaos
1 karmic justice
1 moat
1 replenish
1 rule of law
1 runed haloo
1 sacred ground
1 sterling grove
3 vexing susher


i started at turn 4, as i got 3 bye from a gp trail of my zone:

MUC 0-2:

In the 1st game only utopia sprawl and a 1st turn mirri landed on the board nothing else -.-

2ndG same until i see a susher then i arrange some spell but bounce them all with command and repeal until he lock the match with a Oblivion stone recursion -.-

Nice start i thought (XD). later i discovered he finish the 1st day with a 9-0 or something similar.

5)Merfolk 2-0:

G1 a ESG counter a daze on 2nd turn enchantress. i arrange early the lock and then he concede.

G2 i get manascrewed with, for a lot of the match, 1 forest with 2 sprawl on it as my mana source -.- . he send me at 1 i arrange a confinement lock with an an enchantress and a mirri down. moat give me the win.

6) Rok 2-0:

1G he get manascrewed with a loam in his hand 2 fetch in his graveyard and a ground seal on the board. elephant grass stop his tombstalker in the end of the match.

2G I open with a nice hand and a turn 1 enchantress he chain 4-5 discard effect on my. Mirri + replenish give me the victory.

7)Zoo 1-2:

1G He bet me down very fast to 4 life then i arrange an instable confinement i fetched 3 grove to hold it up fortunately he doesn't seen the 3rd quasaly and finish him with wow.

2G He kills me in 3-4 turn an horrible krosan on my elephant grass kils me at turn 4 4G he set a canonist turn 2. I made an horrible error with a goblin guide and a canonist on the board i fetched 2nd grove for the moat instead for the COp he burn me with 3 bolt in 2 turn -.-. My big mistake

8) Zoo 2-1:

1G he burn me down. no way for me

2G nice hand for me i win the race with angels O_ò. (he draw to much with his sylvan)

3G i set a confinement with 1 enchantress and mirri. i lost it ( 6 land on the top of my library)-.- but fortunately 7th card was a replenish :)

9) Baseruption 2-0:

1 G Counter top lock on my at 3rd turn. he didn't see any finisher so i take time, i show him a lost of must counter thank to mirri and then when he was with no cards in his hand i resolve a replenish that was waiting on the top of my library from 7 turn.

2G a Turn 2 susher kills his counter and i set an hard lock quite fast.



7-2 i arrange a non expected day 2.

We leave the tournament zone late i had my dinner after midnight and going to sleep 10 min later wasn't a good idea as i get up in the morning with a terrible stomacache.



10) reanimator 0-2:

1G turn 3 Ioona calling green kills me with 3 enchantress in my hand and no white card on top 3 cards.

2G My hand was very fine turn 1 ench + mirri with an oblivion and a grass left. a thoughtseize take care of the grass and a ioona calling withe kills me with the oblivion in my hand ( sterling grove, e. tutor, replenish , throne and a land was on the top of my library CRAP). just needing 1 more turn to set a ground seal.

11) probant 2-1:

1G he lock me fast with an counter top lock. and 3 times exalted noble hierarch kills me quite faster.

2G a 5/6 rox was killing me until i set a uncounterable replenish that force him to concede.

3G an esg fucked a spell pierce on turn 2. an elephant grass stops his 4th turn progenitus. 7 angel and 2 pegasi give me the victory on turn 4 of time called. ( he get very angry)

12) Tempotresh 2-0:

1G 2nd turn double daze blocked by a double ESG. he was going to cry.

2G he wasn't knowing so good enchantress as he side in submerge -.-. Nice player by the way funny match.

13) Aggro loam 2-0:

1G slow start for me he had a turn 2 fetcher knight. on his turn 3 and 4 he fetched and use top quite 15 time ( still asking what he was looking for). devastating dreams kills our land he comes with a 15/15 knight. i arrange a elephant grass with 3 land in my hand (I was saving them) he doesn't see any one and a lignify buy me time to arrange a lock that kills him.

2G he get in screw i win quite easy but he continue to fetch 4-5 time a turn. we get close to time. Sacred ground give me the victory.



10-3. here my tournament really finish. i get very tired. i go to time quite 3 time. it was around the 14 i was very hungry and i didn't have time to take somewhat to eat. I lost concentration and i started to pay to have not a brainless deck.



14) Aggro loam 0-2:

1G he see all EE for mirri and sprawl, dreams for my 3 enchantress ont he board and wastes for my 2 sanctuary, mesa slow his goyf until i arrange a double ench + solitary lock but a pulse kill my draw engine and he win.

2G i mull to 6 and i don't know why i hold an horrible hand with karakas and sanctuary as only manasource O_ò. then i went for a ESG for a wild growth under chalice at 1, instead of having a sacred ground. No comment. Finally i get time to eat smoke and have a biobreak.

15) Nausea 0-2:

1G nice hand but not for a combo match. i arrange 3 enchantress but i don't have the time to set confinement.

2G i mull to 5 while shuffling he said me he was going to kill me at turn 1. i mull to 4 and i open with plains ESG canonist (with an arghotian still in my hand) . i beat down him to 12. he use a krosan on canonist and he burn me. ( Land, 2 dark ritual, nausea, tendrils, brainstorm, reverent silence was his opening hand)

16) mirror 1-0:

1G he set a mirri turn 1, then i set a double enchantress on turn 2 and a third on turn 3. he concede

2G he mull to 6, then he concede. ( probably he was more tired than me XD)

17) ubr ferie 1-2:

1G i see 14 lands, 14! he was beating me with bitter tokens. he get hurry and cast down spellstutter without countering to beat me faster. i resolve a funny grass. i kill him with WoW after bitter bring him down to 8

2G not a big hand for me. mesa slows his 2 stalkers, perish kills my poor enchantress and i see no grass.

3G he see a lot of counter he was beating me slowly with bitter than i arrange a grass. but i was little screwed so after 5 turn i don't arrange to pay upkeep, and an extirpate on it with my replenish on the stack kills my game. Probably timing a little more i was going to brought at home a draw as we finished at time . but sincerly i was at the end.

Final result 11-6.
Position 111/2220

It was my first big tournament, i go to Madrid only cause i winned the bye. and i was sure to going out 1st day so i bring enchantress and not a brainless deck to test it in a true and big meta.
I'm very happy for my result, a little sad about the lasts match. Probably with 1-2 more win i was going to top 100 or top 64 with some luck.

I'm very happy too cause Tobias Henke write an article on my deck built on the madrid online journal. Sadly it is expired cause they have uploaded top 8th guys, But if anyone is interested i'll post some screehshot.

Sincerly me and my friends paid a lacks of organization, next gp we will travel 2 day before and save 1 day for rest and see the city.
By the way it was our first gp,according to me so its gone quite fine. I think i return from Madrid as a better player. Next time we will see.


About my deck:

- ESG vs a daze blue meta is very strong. and if your problem if no 1st turn runed halo remember you have still fetch for savana, Esg utopia sprawl calling white and then runed halo, of course more difficult to have in your opening hand but still more functional.

- ground seal: i main deck them for slow dredge and reanimator. But mainly cause i don't have aggro-loam and 43-lands in my meta and i was a bit scared about this matchup. And stop loam is a strong gamebreaking vs quite all black deck.

- lignify: a lot of time very useful, unfortunately i didn't see it vs reanimator.

- Mirri: its a card that often is not countered. and sincerly help you a lot to dig into your deck with fetch and grove and to maintain confinement in desperate situation.

- sacred mesa: I added this finisher cause i was scared about land, dark ritual sadistic sacrament postside opening. Never happend. it sometimes give me time but create blockers is a mana dump. and as finisher is to slow for this deck. I'll continue to search one better. If anyone have any suggeestion.

- 3 grove + 1 in side is the better setting according to me, like 2-1 for replenish. test it your own.

- karakas: it seems like gaddok is not so played out of my zone ( like sadistic), i was expecting a lot of zoo and so i decide to maindeck it, another cards i'll like to see vs reanimator.

- 3 shusher: i was expecting a lot of counter top and so i prefer this answer then city or choke. it pays a lot of time. and it is quite sinergic with ESG as people with a shusher down start to counter random enchantment when you are tapped out :). I would like to test them vs stacks deck but ( fortunately) i miss them.

- In the eye of chaos: nice card. i move it to side as i was expecting an aggro meta. when i arrange to put it on the board it was very fine, baseruption waves and sincerly it can slow a lot both combo zoo and burn.


I noticed that shusher on game 2 is a big problem for all control deck cause they sided out quite all answer, i'll try next tournament wish + angel finisher. We will see.

Thank you all for you time. Very Very sorry for my English but i'm very tired. I'll edit error tomorrow.

Thank you all for your help in building this list.

Suerte :smile:



P.S. About Zoo and grass discussion i've tested the darkest hour if anyone is interested and its working fine. i cut it for manabase problem but if anyone want to work on it i'll glad to retest it :) ( its a funny card)

[Cthuloo]

Congrats for the result, as I supposed playing tight with this deck for 17 rounds was impossible, but until you were able to remained focused you did a great job!

I see in the end you kept the ground seals in, probably a good choice since you met aggro loam twice, a loam rock and reanimator. In the eye of chaos rocks!

Btw, the article is still avalible here (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpmad10/day2#6).

[Dack]

Played Enchantress to a 5-4 in Madrid. Meeeh, I'm kinda frustrated, actually don't wanna talk about it. The night before the tournament a had very intense discussion with 3 fellow Russian/Venezuelanian players at our hostel about Enchantress, one of them making Day 2. Let me say their liste derivate from what we have been discussing here quite a lot. Maybe I'll find the time to talk about it once I can recover...just returned home. My girlfriened would kill me if she knew I was posting here instead of going to bed...

Hi Julian, I'm very looking forward your sharings on the discussion with your Enchant players. The fact that the deck could take new directions is kinda interesting ^^
Hope you'll post soon.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Threw this deck through the test loop about 10 matches last night. Have to say I hadn't really played this deck much post Goyf, though I did play it heavily pre-Goyf and it has changed quite a bit. First off I used to speak highly of Explorations and extra lands + a couple extra slots over fast mana like ESG and sprawls, but now with combo actually being good and the end game getting about 1/2 a turn faster then it used to I have to agree it's probably best to go that route now. Here's my current list.

Edit- list removed to prevent decklist clutter and new list reposted farther down page.

Random thoughts:
First of all I have to say this deck is very meta dependent and this version was designed to run an unknown gauntlet. If you play the same people all the time like NOVA people are prone to do you can really streamline the deck much better.
Have to say Runed Halo worked out rather well MD, won way more games then I should have with Angel tokens and no Enchantress effects out. Sigil is so boss, cut it down to one for a while but bumped it back to two after seeing it win games sans draw engine.
Mirri's Guile is still as good as it ever was. It's really much easier to keep a hand with Guile and no Enchantresses then if it was any other card, which makes me think it really belongs in the deck. I was one of the first to run Guile and I still say 3x is a good idea, Guile turn 1 with a fetch in hand is no joke. Really it's hard to stay in the game without digging with this deck and MG is digging enchantments 9-11 giving you good saturation.
Haven't had much use for Oblivion Ring yet MD but I'd hate to need it and not have it against a PITA counterbalance or something equally annoying. Thinking maybe switching out 1 with 1 Ground Seal from SB is the right move.
Prison over Grass #4 has also worked out pretty well. Out of 10 matches there has yet to be one time were I wished it was Elephant Grass instead and on the flip side it won me 2 games where Grass would have failed.
This deck has so many tight spots I'm constantly looking to cut something to make it better. Right now I'm looking at the MD Oblivion Ring, Karakas, and maybe one Wild Growth as slots that could be better spent.
Karakas seems like it might be a little too cute. Already once I wished it was a savannah or forest and I feel like I'm running a non-basic to deal with a card that only 2 decks play and it would be better to have a basic to avoid Wasteland or another Savannah to have a non basic that is better in 19 out of 20 games then Karakas. Both of those situations seem like they are going to come up about 50 times as often as me playing against a Reanimator deck and miraculously drawing my one Karakas just when I need it with no way to tutor it up (and Teeg is almost a non issue since he affects all of 3 cards in my deck and can be dealt with other ways).
Also someone said something about Wheel of Sun and Moon. I just think Ground Seal is better in almost every way for our purposes. Ground Seal affects cards that are already in the GY, it stops most of the GY cards I fear most (Reanimation, LFtL), and you draw a card just for playing it. If I was going to play Wheel I would say Relic or even Leyline would be better choices.
I thought Shusher was good tech so I'm giving that a shot. Not so sure about my idea of Spheres. It slows me down a lot too and I'm not sure how much they'll help. Maybe Mindbreak Trap is a better choice? Thoughts?

[Dr.AgOn]

I like your list, but the Sideboard sucks. City of Solitude easily replaces Shusher; it does the same and is an Enchantment. The Spheres are bad, too. You Slow yourself down too much. If I were you, I would take out the Spirit Guides and replace them with 2 Enlightene Tutor and à maindeck Choke or something

[The_Red_Panda]

I like your list, but the Sideboard sucks. City of Solitude easily replaces Shusher; it does the same and is an Enchantment. The Spheres are bad, too. You Slow yourself down too much. If I were you, I would take out the Spirit Guides and replace them with 2 Enlightene Tutor and à maindeck Choke or something

City can be countered, Shusher cannot. They are very, very different. I can't speak for the spheres, as I've never tested them personally, but ESG is a wonderful card, and not one I'd be willing to cut. Choke maindeck is iffy. It does nothing to zoo, but is incredible force bait in lots of other matchups.

[GrimJack]

To confirm my experience, I played in SCG 5k in Richmond last weekend, and I am positive that Chrome Mox is way to go rather than ESG. First turn Runed Halos and or Argothian really make or break the archetype. Heck, I even won in Round 1 vs. ANT with my Chrome Moxen. I can't hype them enough. Plus, after you lock in with Solitary and are drawing far too many, its nice to convert them into extra land drops with your surplus cards before discarding. If I had to give grades, Chrome Mox A+, ESG B-.


Meanwhile, I ran two City of Solituide MD (list above) and it was dominating. Better than Choke, which is better to SB in 2x for Game 2. It gave me Game 1 answers against Countertop/NOBant, which honestly is a "Bye Round" now against Enchantress. However, with the emergence of Reanimator taking ahold of the meta, Ground Seal maybecome a MD necessity. More so than Wheel. Iona is going to become a prevelant problem, I believe.

[(nameless one)]

Hello guys!

I dont really have any Duals or Onslaught Fetches. How terrible this deck would be if I ran just basic lands/Serra Sanctum/Horizon Canopy?

[GrimJack]

You could probably get by with it. The deck already runs 10 basics as it is. You would be hurting though without some fetching abiilty for Taiga though when you want to cast Words of War. I find myself fetching for basics a lot anyways to protect against Wasteland. (Dont want to lose 2 for 1 with a Utopia Sprawl on a Savannah.)

I dont think using all basics would be terrible per se, but definitely could be better. You would struggle at the major events.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Chrome Mox is terrible when you have to mulligan. And the deck mulligans a lot.

I'm thinking of replacing the Library with a Lignify. The decks Library is good against just aren't seeing much play right now, and it'd be nice to have both answers to Iona MD, as well as another card to help vs. Zoo.

[anonymos]

So between the well placing in Madrid, the "sky is falling" attitude of some in the community forums over it, and local experience that the matchup really isn't very nice to us, how many slots do we want to dedicate to Reanimator for the next little bit of SCG tournies? I'm kind of thinking 3 Wheel and a couple Lignify to go with my maindeck O rings.

[dontbiteitholmes]

So between the well placing in Madrid, the "sky is falling" attitude of some in the community forums over it, and local experience that the matchup really isn't very nice to us, how many slots do we want to dedicate to Reanimator for the next little bit of SCG tournies? I'm kind of thinking 3 Wheel and a couple Lignify to go with my maindeck O rings.

Yeah I think if you expect Reanimator at least 1 MD Lignify and the Karakas seem necessary. Really don't want to go overboard, granted the deck is a problem. Unfortunately I didn't realize it before but Exhume doesn't target so Ground Seal isn't as effective. I still think 1x Ground Seal MD might be a good call just in general. Sucks that there is no best answer for Reanimator. Wheel doesn't affect cards already in the GY, Ground Seal doesn't stop Exhume, Relic and Tormod's aren't enchantments and can't be tutored or protected by Grove, and Leyline can't be hardcast. I think Wheel might actually be the worst option since you certainly can't count on it before turn 2. That means Daze, Force, Thoughtseize, Entomb in response, or Tutor for an answer all trump you and that's almost 1/3 of their deck. Atleast with the artifacts you can drop them turn 1 before Seize and Entomb in response doesn't work and atleast with Crypt you are shielded from daze.