[Single Card Discussion] Bibi

[Clark Kant]

Directly from Mtgsalvation:

"On may 14th 2006, Antoine Ruel won the invitational 2006.
A version of his flip-card Bibi // Sleur is expected to be part of Future Sight:
Bibi

Legendary Creature — Human Baby
0/1
Whenever you draw a card, put a year counter on Bibi.
At end of turn, if Bibi has two or more year counters on it, flip it.
///
Sleur
Legendary Creature — Human
3/3
If an opponent would shuffle his or her library, instead you may search that library for a card, that player shuffles the rest, you put the card on top of that library, then you draw a card."

I am absolutely certain this card will be maindecked in Threshold. Yes a 3/3 for 2 mana is not comparable to a 4/4 for 2 mana.

But the ability the card has is absolutely incredible.

List of things it makes your opponent unable to use without taking a massive tempo hit....

Fetchlands!!
Tutors. This will be a pain for combo decks everywhere.
Survival
Loads of other cards I'm too lazy to type up.

Not to mention that the card reduces the dependency on the graveyard a tad.

And I definately think the card could hurt any deck running lots of fetchlands. Sure thres can counter or remove it, but it's just as likely that any deck running it will be running ways to protect it.

Will this card see play in every creature based deck that runs UG?

How much will this hurt multicolored decks?

[iOWN]

Don't forget that this is just the original entry, and it will still go through Wizards before print. (Jin, Master of Disruption --> Rakdos Augermage = Shafted...)

The ability still looks pretty neat, though, and as of now it would be insanely easy to flip.

[Clark Kant]

Yes, but this block, wizards said the focus is on repowering monocolored strategies.

I can think of few better ways than by printing this multicolored (ironic I know) card very nearly to what was submitted.

[C.P.]

This is one of those cards that will be printed weak just to make it not broken. I would be interesting if it was just a Mono green greature instead of blue green, though.

[Caboose]

Clark Kent's birth certificate must read "Antoine Ruel" because Bibi//Sleur is absolute garbage. I'd rather play Moonlace in my Threshold list. Even if it was printed as is, it's worth the same as the juice that runs down the crack of your mom's ass.

Me no likey :cry:

[Pinder]

I don't even think it will stop tutors (Mystical, Enlightened, etc.), because by the time you get around to shuffling, you've already found the card. If I have it right, then the interaction would look something like this:

Opponent finds a card for tutor
Opponent tries to shuffle library, but it gets replaced, so you look for another card, they shuffle, and you put that card on top, and you draw a card.
Then your opponent puts the card they tutored for into their hand/on top of their library/into play/whatever.

If I have this wrong, let me know, but it seems like that's how it would work.

It lets you give them crappy draws, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't shut down tutors or Fetches.

edit: Wait, can the ability happen during the resolution of a spell? I think it can because it's a replacement effect and not triggered, but I'm not sure...

[Clark Kant]

I never said it stop tutors and fetchlands. My point is that it really sets your opponent back anytime they use those cards. They end up with a dead draw, and you get an extra card - whcih gets you that disruption spell you want one turn faster.

Caboose I don't think you've thought it through.

Think about this scenario...

Your opponent cracks a fetchland.

You get to draw a card +1 Card Advantage.

Plus you get to search your opponent's entire library and pick out a card that they probably don't want to play again and stack it on top, for example, a second fetchland. Essentially, you deprived your opponent of their next turn's card draw (which for the sake of conveinience I'm going to characterize as +1 Card Advantage).

Please keep in mind that Ancestral Recall has the same +2 Card Advantage. How happy are you if everytime you crack a fetchland, your opponent gets a two card advantage. It may not seem like much a drawback, similar to how Arcane Denial doesn't seem like much of a drawback (which is no where near as bad as this one), but the impact on the outcome of most games will be very significant.

[edgewalker]

You're analogy between ancestral and Bibi is just plain wrong because you refer to the dead draw as "like +1 CA" but it's not +1 CA, it's like it. That's like saying a kite is like an airplane. Plain and simple, this card blows. I don't know why you have hard-ons for such terrible cards but this one has no actualy viablity at all. Besides, we don't know it's cc nor have we seen the finished product, I think once again your jumping the gun.

[Clark Kant]

In card advantage calculations, your opponent losing a card draw is given the exact same weight as you gaining a card as it well should. When calculating card advantage, a card that says your opponent discards three cards is given the same weight as Ancestral Recall. If that were not the case, both Hymn to Tourach and Duress would net you -1 Card Advantage.

And your opponent having a dead draw is indeed functionally identical to them discarding a card except in a few special cases like if they have an Ensnaring Bridge in play or run Smallpox.

And such special cases are generally ignored when making Card Advantage calculations. Were this not true, making your opponent discard cards wouldn't be calculated as netting you card advantage due to the possibility of scenarios like them playing Ichorid, Nether Spirit, or Crucible of Worlds. I don't know if there's a bible for card advantage calculations somewhere, but if there was, and it didn't weight giving dead draws into card advantage calculations damn near the same as it does discards, it would be seriously flawed as both scenarios are virtually identical except in special circumstances that could just as easily apply to discards (Spirit, Crucible etc) as it does to dead draws.

You can debate strawmen with me all you want and I have no intention of playing along, but the simple fact is, in the majority of real world game scenarios, when your opponent cracks a fetchland when you have this card in play, you will deprive your opponent of their next turns draw by giving them a card they would be foolish (in many cases, a second fetchland) to use all while drawing an additional card yourself putting yourself significantly ahead of him.


Plain and simple, this card blows. I don't know why you have hard-ons for such terrible cards but this one has no actualy viablity at all.

I just wanted to get the above quote in the record.

[Tao]

Clark Kent's birth certificate must read "Antoine Ruel" because Bibi//Sleur is absolute garbage. I'd rather play Moonlace in my Threshold list. Even if it was printed as is, it's worth the same as the juice that runs down the crack of your mom's ass.

Me no likey :cry:

Clark Kant is right about everything he says here.

You certainly don't understand the card. The card will flip the turn after you untap or even the turn you play it with Brainstorm. Then you have a 3/3 creature with a very unfair, strong ability.

Anyway, Wizards won't print the card as it is now because it is too stoing.

[noobslayer]

We would have been better off if he submitted Lightning Bringer. Or Rockbeast. That would've been nice.

[Clark Kant]

I just find it amusing that people either see the card for what it is, extremely strong, perhaps to the point of being unprintable as is, or so grossly underestimate the card that I'm tempted to think they're being sarcastic.

[noobslayer]

It can be handy granted, but not enough to ejaculate over. Which some of you seem to have handedly done here.

[edgewalker]

In card advantage calculations, your opponent losing a card draw is given the exact same weight as you gaining a card as it well should. When calculating card advantage, a card that says your opponent discards three cards is given the same weight as Ancestral Recall. If that were not the case, both Hymn to Tourach and Duress would net you -1 Card Advantage.


I'm sorry, I must have missed when they passed out that text book. Excuse me if I'm skeptical of you're authority on what counts as CA and what doesn't.

Even if it was CA, the tutors still work, and so do fetchlands. So essentialy, their task was accomplished, so what if you gave them a dead draw, If that was so broken, why isn't memory lapse played over counterspell? Why aren't crop rotation and temporal sprong broken in half. The fact is you do infact have a hard-on, I saw hard in the sense that you have an obession. If you're so childish that you can't see that then we clearly can't have mature debate about the viability of this card, that doesn't have a cc yet and hasn't even been edited or tested.

[Clark Kant]

Noobslayer, You seem to be mixed up.

My concern over the card, and interest in it, stems from the fact that if it sees print, it WILL see play in the second most popular deck in the format, and it WILL provide a very strong drawback to running fetchlands everywhere perhaps prompting or forcing many decks to change their mana bases.

edgewalker, if you're going to post, make some arguments worth responding to. Seriously, have you read Memory Lapse or Temporal Sprong? How is putting a card that concerned you enough to spend 2-3 mana and a card to stop on top of your opponent's library equavlent to giving your opponent a dead draw? I posit to you that if Memory Lapse read: Counter target spell. Search your opponent's library for a card, that player shuffles the rest, you put the card on top of that library. It would certainly see a hell of a lot more play than Counterspell.

[Hanni]

If the card does in fact get printed as 3/3 for 2cc with an ability that causes you to draw a card everytime the opponent shuffles their Library then yes, the card does seem pretty broken. However, you only imply that it costs 2cc and I highly doubt that it will... either it's going to be more than 2cc, or the amount of counters required to flip it will be much greater than 2. I highly doubt they would print such a card like that because, even in Standard, the card seems grossly overpowered.

[edgewalker]

Will Threshold play it? it's a 3/3 that is an easy target. Mongoose works because it isn't affected by removal. Werebear is useful because it has a 4/4 body, bigger than most creatures and out of bolt range. Enforcer has evasion and a 6/6 body. Meddling Mage, although it's only a 2/2 can be a hassle for many decks. Also, you keep forgetting that we don't know the cc of the card. What if the card's cc is 3UG? Will it see play then? What about 2UG, 1UG? You seem to be ignoring the reason for thresh's mana curve, it can't support high cc spells. You also are assuming that it will have a low cc. The fact remains, I keep giving you arguements but you act childish and either piss and moan about them, act snarky, or skate around them. Do me a solid and answer this one.

So to answer your question, assuming we live in a perfect world and it has a low cc, the card might see play. What do you suggest thresh should take out to make room from this broken card.

@Kant, you seem to no understand my use of memory lapse. Your whole arguement behind the card is that it causes a dead draw. Temporal Spring and Memory Lapse cause the same "+1 CA" as you put it. So my question is why don't they see play. They give you the same +1 CA and give the oppoent a dead draw, which you claimed people haven't accounted for. In hindsight, since you claim people don't count it when thinking of CA, I might think that's because it's not CA, but I digress. I think people don't look for cards that create dead draws because it's a lame concept.

[Clark Kant]

The casting cost submitted is UG. The mana symbols just didn't paste over from Mtgsalvation.

Hanni, I certainly hope you're right. But Wizards has printed invitational cards as submitted (discounting cleaning up text but leaving the card at the same or a higher power level) far more often than they changed them.

My concern is that they won't change the card merely because it itself is multicolored. If they don't, it will likely have a signifcant effect on manabases, I think a negative one. Perhaps you disagree and think the effect will be good for the format. That's what I'm interested in talking about, not all this nonsense about Memory Lapse and Kites.

[TorpidNinja]

Because of the card draw, for the player controlling Bibi, alone? Because the manipulation ability isn't terribly powerful. On the otherhand, if this sucker could be played turn one and cantripped bigger either that turn or the next, then that'd be decent beats with a nice card draw possibility.

[edgewalker]

Oh Clark, I forget to ask, hows Kor Dirge working out for you?

[scrumdogg]

You're also ignoring the fact that the card does nothing much useful versus a number of decks in the format, even if every Thresh build everywhere plays the damn card. Goblins? Already going to beat you about the face, not caring at all about a 3/3 targetable. Solidarity? You better hope the CC is 2, otherwise they combo out when you tap out for this 'beast'. TES? Couldn't care less. Survival? Have they resolved a Survival? Then the card is irrelevant - they would welcome more land & creatures are recyclable (if not castable...). The Mirror match? Might be some good there, but a card aimed specifically at randomness - why bother? Thresh is already pretty good at opposing the randomness...and all this rancorous debate comes before A) the card is confirmed as submitted B) there is a CC. Ludicrous.

[Kronicler]

Just to confirm, the submitted cost is only UG. This of course could change before it is printed.

Kronicler

[Nydaeli]

I look at the card as a 3/3 for 2 with a mediocre additional ability. Sure, it will sometimes disrupt the opponent if they've depleted most of their hand, but most of the time it won't do that much. Still, it's well above the curve, especially for a blue-based deck. The drawback for a deck with cantrips is very small.

I also expect the card to be changed significantly in its final form.

[Hanni]

Actually Scrum, if it were to get printed as a 2cc 3/3 targetable, it will be a problem for Goblins and the other decks you mention because if they don't deal with, the card advantage that the Thresh player is going to get is going to get rediculous. Goblins runs, what, 8 fetchlands + 4 Matrons? Then if you count Portent'ing the Goblin player for another 2 cards... it's going to give Thresh tons of actual card advantage in addition to the usual card quality. Psuedo-Confidant with a 3/3 body instead of 2/1 seems pretty strong to me.

Even against matchups with 0 shuffle effects, a 3/3 for 2cc that isn't Threshold dependant is still really good. I am also pretty sure that there are far more decks with shuffle effects than without... so you simply board it out vs those matchups.

This isn't even counting the nifty ability to reduce the opponent's card quality either, I'm simply highlighting the card draw aspect (since it is the stronger ability).

[xsockmonkeyx]

How is this discussion productive? The card's abilities and CC havent been confirmed so its utterly useless to speculate on its viability in the metagame. To make statements like "this card will definately see play in thresh", or "people will have to rethink their manabases" about a card that doesnt exist is nothing short of asinine.

[Clark Kant]

Lol, it's a formula with you isn't it edgewalker.

The second you realize you're wrong and your argument makes zero sense, instead of actually trying to come up with a rational arguments, you do everything in your power to start a flame war.

What I said about Kor Dirge was that the card deserves testing, and it did. My testing showed that it has tons of potential in several problem scenarios involving Negator, and I continue to run it in certain playgroups.

Everyone of the cards that I stated will definatively see play and significantly improve their respective decks, even when many people disagreed with me, Rift Bolt in burn (Zilla and other burn regulars said that the card wasn't very good at all, yet the card led to burn getting multiple top 8s and now it's near impossible to find a build without it), Small Pox in Pox (many Pox regulars at salvation disagreed that the card should be played in Pox at all, yet a build within three cards of the build posted top 4ed at a european national tournament within a few months), Tomb of Yawgmoth (well, no one disagreed that this card would see play).

But you know what, it's irrelvent to this discussion so let's get back to point at hand.

That's exactly how I feel about this card. If printed as submitted like the majority of invitational cards, this card WILL see play in Threshold builds that top 8 at large tournaments within three months of the card being legal.

[noobslayer]

No it won't, because the card quality threshold already has it rather good, as well as the creature base being far more resilient. The best thing it would do is pitch to force of will.

[edgewalker]

No, it's not a formula, you've failed to counter any of my arguements. You simply leave a vague half-assed snarky comment and move on. The comment on Kor Dirge was basicly to emphasize your obssesion with crappy cards. Now, as to the other cards you've "brought" to the lgacy community, I doubt your the only ones who called them good. The moment I saw small pox on the spoilers I thought it was gold. So, from what I've gathered you must create a thread about every new card, most will be really shitty, but some will be good, so you just gamble and realize you'll get one right eventually. Hell, even the sun shines on a dogs ass.

[Hanni]

No it won't, because the card quality threshold already has it rather good, as well as the creature base being far more resilient. The best thing it would do is pitch to force of will.

If the card gets printed as is, it says that you draw a card whenever the opponent shuffles their deck. Last time I checked, the only actual card draw Thresh had was in Predict. Yes, Threshold has great card quality. What they lack is actual card draw. This is one major reason Threshold has a problem with Goblins... it wants to make 1-for-1 trades constantly and Goblins simply overwhelms them in card advantage. So if the card does see print, I can definitely see it being played in Threshold.

However, I agree 100% with the other people that posted that this thread is retarded. Show me an actual spoiler that says it is what it is and it might be worth discussing further. Discussing cards that are still speculation seems extremely retarded for anyone who's not part of Wizards R&D card design team.

[Clark Kant]

xsock, yes it's speculative, but not nearly as many of the threads on here (such as what will top 8 at the columbus meta or what new decks will emerge).

It's probable that the card will be printed as submitted as the majority Invitational cards are (or in some cases improved upon even), even when they have very powerful abilities, Dark Confidant being the most recent example.

And it's relevent, because if the card sees play which I am certain it will if printed as submitted, then it will have an impact on so many decks that run an excessivly large amount of fetchlands and are reliant upon them.

edgewalker, the quality of your arguments and comparisons, memory lapse et. al speak for themselves and leave it at that in the hope that you don't feel compelled to respond. As radley already put so well "Get the f out of my thread please."

[edgewalker]

Yet again, you use your arrogance to shield yourself from my arguments. If they're so inane and pointless, why not just refute them. You claim you can do so so easily why not do it. You're like the highschool kids who say they can beat people up, but they're not worth their time. If it's so easy, then people show me the error of my ways, refute my arguments.

Also, I'm showing all this hostility, because if anything at all, atleast grant me that it seems a little far fetched that ONE card, one, 1, uno, one card, a creature no less, will warp the format or atleast to the extent you claim it will. Hell, you compared it to ancestral recall. Now it might just be that I'm scared of such awsomeness and I refuse to see the light, or it could be that you're just an arrogant prick.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Actually Scrum, if it were to get printed as a 2cc 3/3 targetable, it will be a problem for Goblins and the other decks you mention because if they don't deal with, the card advantage that the Thresh player is going to get is going to get rediculous. Goblins runs, what, 8 fetchlands + 4 Matrons? Then if you count Portent'ing the Goblin player for another 2 cards... it's going to give Thresh tons of actual card advantage in addition to the usual card quality. Psuedo-Confidant with a 3/3 body instead of 2/1 seems pretty strong to me.

Even against matchups with 0 shuffle effects, a 3/3 for 2cc that isn't Threshold dependant is still really good. I am also pretty sure that there are far more decks with shuffle effects than without... so you simply board it out vs those matchups.

This isn't even counting the nifty ability to reduce the opponent's card quality either, I'm simply highlighting the card draw aspect (since it is the stronger ability).


Isn't it a 0/1? Isn't that easy to kill for something that flips turn 3 at the earliest, against Goblins, with land destruction, creature kill, and pressure?

I think this has a similiar problem in Thresh that Dryad did. It's only good when you drop it in the first couple turns, which is when you'd rather not be tapping out, especially for a hit or miss ability.

If Psychogenic Probe doesn't see play in Burn, I'm not counting on this being too amazing either.


And such special cases are generally ignored when making Card Advantage calculations. Were this not true, making your opponent discard cards wouldn't be calculated as netting you card advantage due to the possibility of scenarios like them playing Ichorid, Nether Spirit, or Crucible of Worlds. I don't know if there's a bible for card advantage calculations somewhere, but if there was, and it didn't weight giving dead draws into card advantage calculations damn near the same as it does discards, it would be seriously flawed as both scenarios are virtually identical except in special circumstances that could just as easily apply to discards (Spirit, Crucible etc) as it does to dead draws.

That's not the same thing for a number of reasons. When you make someone discard, they are losing cards; that's not a "special case" or in any way exceptional. You are paying some price to make them lose direct card advantage. The only "special case" involved would be if they discard something they want to discard, like Life from the Loam. Hymn to Tourach's card advantage is not debatable.

Now, making them skip a draw is the same thing; but that's not what the card does. The card makes them draw a card of your choice, but it doesn't change whatever their search effect was, unless it was a Mirage tutor. So you're adversely effecting their card quality, but you aren't gaining additional card advantage off of it.

[Cait_Sith]

I say this with all the kindness in my heart: Stop fucking e-masturbating in this thread you two. Go splooge somewhere the fuck else. Thank you.

Assuming the cards stays as posted with a UG cost:

Often this will be a 3/3 for UUG or something close to that (I am looking at Brainstorm and Serum Visions here). Given that you can spread out the 3rd part of the cost it isn't too bad. The Bibi form is extremely weak, but the adult form would be alright as a vanilla (let us face it Watchwolf IS awesome) but to be playable in Legacy you need to be more than "okay" Thresh could abuse this guy because he can generate large amounts of card advantage, but on the down side he is vulnerable to more removal than Werebear, is slower most of the time, and is conditional for good effect. Ironically I can see him working well with Extirpate (you know his library and his hand, so you can make a good choice what to make him draw, play Extirpate becomes a cantrip. Nice. See also: Extract)

[Hanni]

Isn't it a 0/1? Isn't that easy to kill for something that flips turn 3 at the earliest, against Goblins, with land destruction, creature kill, and pressure?


Well, typically you're not going to want to drop him until you can play a cantrip or two, which isn't really that much different from playing a Werebear pre-Thresh. One Brainstorm will flip it, since you draw 3 cards with it, or simply chaining 2 cantrips works. It seems relatively the same in situational requirements as the Threshold mechanic, maybe a little worse, but it isn't Threshold dependant so that seems like a plus. I also don't think it's only good in the first couple of turns... I think that it will be good at any point in the game as long as you have some cantrip (if not, draw steps add a counter too). 3/3 for 2 seems solid to me but I really like the card advantage ability. If nothing else, it turns you're Portents into Predicts (make opponent Shuffle, draw 2 cards). The ability to worsen you're opponents draws a little as well seems fairly strong.

I doubt it will get printed as is. If it does get printed as is, I most certainly think it will see play in Threshold. I'll just leave it at that.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Well, typically you're not going to want to drop him until you can play a cantrip or two, which isn't really that much different from playing a Werebear pre-Thresh. One Brainstorm will flip it, since you draw 3 cards with it, or simply chaining 2 cantrips works. It seems relatively the same in situational requirements as the Threshold mechanic, maybe a little worse, but it isn't Threshold dependant so that seems like a plus.

Werebear can only be Fanatic-d or Incinerator-d for 1 when you play it pre-Thresh. No matter what turn you play Bibi, it won't flip until the end of the turn. That's a huge difference.


I also don't think it's only good in the first couple of turns... I think that it will be good at any point in the game as long as you have some cantrip (if not, draw steps add a counter too). 3/3 for 2 seems solid to me but I really like the card advantage ability. If nothing else, it turns you're Portents into Predicts (make opponent Shuffle, draw 2 cards). The ability to worsen you're opponents draws a little as well seems fairly strong.

After turn 3 they've set up; fetches have been popped, combo has won or lost, Survival has set up. You also have less card draw, but that's secondary to the first concern.

It might see play, but I doubt it; it's an engine card that's non-redundant, relatively fragile, and is rarely a bomb. It's just not that impressive.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Now, as to the other cards you've "brought" to the lgacy community, I doubt your the only ones who called them good. The moment I saw small pox on the spoilers I thought it was gold. So, from what I've gathered you must create a thread about every new card, most will be really shitty, but some will be good, so you just gamble and realize you'll get one right eventually. Hell, even the sun shines on a dogs ass.

Q. F. T.

[noobslayer]

Where's a mod to do their thing? You know, lock this inevitable flame fest. A few see this as busted, and the rest of us see this as "less-than-meh."

[Clark Kant]

I'm not sure why everyone is so sure the card won't see print as is.

Of so many, very few invitational cards get nixed.

I see it as quite likely it won't. The card is pretty bad in formats without tutors and fetchlands, I know little of extended but I think it likely will make zero impact in standard and limited. Chalice and to some extent Confidant are both cards that are more powerful in Legacy than in standard and limited, and they saw print. It's not like legacy doesn't have comparably disruptive cards, Chalice for example. I don't see the dci neutering a card for our format. And I think it's certainly a lot more significant to speculate about the impact of this than about stuff like what decks will top 8 at the next big tourney.

I already posted this last night. But somehow, when the forums crashed
last night right after I pressed submit, my post seems to have been
wiped out. So I want to reiterate. I'm not claiming to take any credit
for the revival of pox or burn with rift bolt etc. Saying that a card
is extremely strong in a certain deck and will see play is nothing
noteworthy. And the credit for unveiling the new tech belongs solely to
the people who played and top 8ed with the decks at major tournaments
for the first time. I only hope to someday have the time and resources to travel and achieve that once myself.

My only point in pointing out those cards was because edge wasacting like a d___ starting flamewars, and posting unprovoked flames in so many different threads and tried to do so again by mischaracterizing my comments about Kor Dirge, a card that I only said deserved testing in decks running Negator. That's not comparable to what I'm saying about Bibi, the only cards I've ever said will see play in a particular deck, did and made a huge impact. And I'm confidant that this will be the case here.

edge, I don't wish for this thread to be locked so I'm going to try not to reply to your posts atleast certainly until you post a good reason why this card won't have an impact.

I do hope a mod locks this before it becomes a flamefest. We have it known where people stand on the card, and we can let things fall in place when it does see print.

[Nightmare]

Where's a mod to do their thing? You know, lock this inevitable flame fest. A few see this as busted, and the rest of us see this as "less-than-meh."
Rather than upping your post count and contributing nothing, you should click the little triangle under a poster's Avatar labeled "Report Post" to bring things like this to our attention. The likelihood that we see every thread on this site as soon as the discussion turns sour is unlikely, so reporting it is the fastest solution.