[Deck] Mizzium Vault

[thebadmagicplayer]

hi, you all probably know that under the new errata Time Vault and Mizzium Transreliquat can give you infinite turns for three mana a turn. the deck I'm proposing below is a controll shell with the vault finish. It still needs a way to deal with goblins and fairy stompy but I think it's still good.

win condition:
3x Prodigal sorcerer(or equivilent)
tutor/draw:
4x brainstorm
4x impulse
4x enlightened tutor
3x Intuition
combo:
1x time vault
2x Mizzium Transreliquat
Fast Mana:
4x Mox Diamond
Counters:
4x Force of Will
4x Counterspell
Other:
3x Wrath of god
land:
3x mishra's factory
4x Wasteland
3x City of Traitors
3x Ancient Tomb
4x Tundra
5x island
2x plains

I don't know what to put in the sideboard yet but I'm thinking of perhaps getting more wraths and Ghostly Prisons. The idea is to controll the board long enough to get the Vault and mizzium with enough mana to pull off the combo and then just take your time and ping them to death with sorcerers.
The deck needs enoughways to deal with goblins with out turning into stax, and it needs to have a SB for fast combo like IGGY and TES. I've had people tell me to add in cards like smoke stack and to run less land but havent herd any convincing reasons to do so yet. Anothe idea I herd was to splash red for welder, but that would cause me to splash red and possible disrupt my mana base. All comments are welcome.

[vigilante]

Is there a reason you're not running 4x Time Vault and 4x Mizzium Transreliquat? In a deck that wants to get its combo pieces online as soon as possible after you've got control of the board, its always made sense to me to be playing as many copies as possible. If you upped the Vault/Transreliquat count to 4 each, Thirst for Knowledge would then be a good candidate for a draw spell (I'd be suggesting it in place of Impulse), as you could discard extraneous combo pieces to it.


Another big suggestion would be to run some number of Propaganda and/or Ghostly Prison maindeck (you'll absolutely need something more than 3 Wraths against aggro matchups, which you've already identified as a weak area).

On a completely different note, if you were to replace the white splash in the deck with black, you could have access to some more tutoring power (but it would be at the cost of Enlightened Tutor....and losing that might not be a very appealing prospect). Black also gives you access to Damnation, which would handily replace Wrath if you went down that road.

Don't let these people who suggested Smokestack + fewer lands convince you that that's a good idea....as soon as you've got the combo online, Smokestack becomes less than worthless. Regarding lands, don't cut any at all....in fact, I'd be inclined to increase the count by one or two (that'd allow you to more easily support Mox Diamond as well). Four Ancient Tombs and City of Traitors are necessary....this combo is mana-hungry, as are control decks in general -- and this deck is both at the same time.

I've actually spent a fair amount of time testing this concept previously, using both a mono-blue and mono-white shell. Mono-blue gives access to a wide range of card drawing, countermagic, Propaganda, and most significantly, Transmute Artifact. Mono-white gives you Enlightened Tutor, Ghostly Prison, Wrath of God, Swords to Plowshares, and the land-thinning/win-condition package of Eternal Dragon. Both versions I tried were 1) extremely mana-hungry, 2) always on the back-foot against aggro, 3) not fast enough in establishing the 'lock', and 4) not really worth pursuing as they were too easily disrupted (remember that an early Pithing Needle will crush you, or at least buy your opponent a lot of time while you find an answer). That said, don't be discouraged by my lack of success with the deck....a UW build incorporating the best both colours have to offer might improve the deck's viability.

[Cavius The Great]

I think Rod of Ruin might be a better win condition than Prodigal Sorcerer because it's not prone to creature hate and isn't a fragile 1/1. I actually designed a list that runs Rod of Ruin and it's been working fine.

[Sea R Hill]

I have been developping this deck since the errata. I have a pretty good list, with a favorable MU against Goblins (yes) and control decks. The only problem is burn decks.

I can tell you that your list is terrible.

What is wrong with your list:
-like vigilante said you should play 4 Time Vault and 4 Mizzium TRansreliquat.
-prodigal sorcerer is like the worst kill you could have found. You have to run 3 to get access to it before you're running out of cards to draw. It is a waste of slots.
-i don't see the point of playing factory if your kill condition is prodigal. Again, it is a waste of slots.
-Mox diamond is worst than Chrome mox. It only gives you bad starting hands and forces you to run too many lands.
-i don't know why you are running intuition. It is so inappropriate!! You don't have any target for this card.
-wrath of god is too slow to control the board
-white is the worst splash you could have chosen. Chose either green for xantid swarm and krosan grip (needle kills you) or red for welder, pyroclasm, rolling earthquake, shattering spree, burning wish... I play red.:cool:
-you don't run any synergic cards with time vault. Try to squeeze the most juice out of this powerful card. I saw versions with Stasis. I play it with Tangle wire (play time vault, next turn untap it and play tangle : the opponents spend 2 turns under a 4 counters tangle)

You don't need white.
Pyroclasm > Wrath
Transmute / Fabricate > Enlightened Tutor

Are some other people interested about improving this deck?
I've been waiting for this topic to appear on the source for so long!

[thebadmagicplayer]

I can tell you that your list is terrible.

Gee, thanks. I know the list isn't amazing, thats why it's in the 'developmental' forum. Anyway, going off the majority of the suggestions this is the new list:

win condition:
1x rod of ruin (will be tutored for)
tutor/draw:
4x brainstorm
3x fabricate
4x enlightened tutor
3x transmute artifact
combo:
2x time vault (only need one to combo)
3x Mizzium Transreliquat (as above)
Counters:
4x Force of Will
4x Counterspell
Other:
4x Wrath of god
4x Propaganda
land:
4x Wasteland
3x City of Traitors
3x Ancient Tomb
4x Tundra
6x island
4x plains

the moxen were cutting into my range of spells so I cut them in favor of Propaganda and better tutors. If anyone can suggest another counter for the deck I'd appriciate it because it feels a little light on permission.

the other Idea I liked was the idea of the black splash. maybe something like:

win condition:
1x rod of ruin (will be tutored for)
tutor/draw:
4x brainstorm
3x fabricate
3x transmute artifact
combo:
2x time vault
3x Mizzium Transreliquat
Counters:
4x Force of Will
4x Counterspell
Other:
4x Damnation
4x Propaganda
4x dark ritual
land:
4x Wasteland
3x City of Traitors
3x Ancient Tomb
4x underground sea
5x island
5x swamp

it's about the same as the other list 'cept for the dark ritual, that now lets you get the turn one win.

turn one win hand:underground sea, city of traitors, 3x dark ritual, mizzium transreliquat, time vault. it's not realistic to get it, but it's possible.:cool:

[ACE]

hi, you all probably know that under the new errata Time Vault and Mizzium Transreliquat can give you infinite turns for three mana a turn. the deck I'm proposing below is a controll shell with the vault finish. It still needs a way to deal with goblins and fairy stompy but I think it's still good.

win condition:
3x Prodigal sorcerer(or equivilent)
tutor/draw:
4x brainstorm
4x impulse
4x enlightened tutor
3x Intuition
combo:
1x time vault
2x Mizzium Transreliquat
Fast Mana:
4x Mox Diamond
Counters:
4x Force of Will
4x Counterspell
Other:
3x Wrath of god
land:
3x mishra's factory
4x Wasteland
3x City of Traitors
3x Ancient Tomb
4x Tundra
5x island
2x plains

I don't know what to put in the sideboard yet but I'm thinking of perhaps getting more wraths and Ghostly Prisons. The idea is to controll the board long enough to get the Vault and mizzium with enough mana to pull off the combo and then just take your time and ping them to death with sorcerers.
The deck needs enoughways to deal with goblins with out turning into stax, and it needs to have a SB for fast combo like IGGY and TES. I've had people tell me to add in cards like smoke stack and to run less land but havent herd any convincing reasons to do so yet. Anothe idea I herd was to splash red for welder, but that would cause me to splash red and possible disrupt my mana base. All comments are welcome.

Ok.... Where to begin...

First off, Intuition is weak in this build because you only have 2 mizzium and 1 vault- the cards you want to search for in the first place.

Second, you are running white, but no swords to plowshares... Is there a reason for this?

And yes, I would play rod of ruin over the prodigal main, and then side the prodigals in game two. The reason for this is that they will have sided out their creature removal for artifact hate. They will most likely not be able to deal with it.

Also, 24 land is a bit much in this deck. I would run maybe 20, with 4 lotus petal. Possibly up the city of traitors and ancient tomb to 4 each. This is to help support the sideboarded chalice of the void you should have.

It will also help with getting the combo down asap, and with a possible turn 2 wrath set up(with lotus petal, white land, and tomb or city) in case of overrun by goblins.

Having only one rod main deck is a bad Idea. More and more decks are running main deck artifact hate like krosan grip. It is at least a 2 of.

But yeah- with black you will want to play 4 duress/cabal therapy against combo/control, and 3-4 darkblast against goblins.
With white, you need the swords to plowshares. It is almost essential.

[thebadmagicplayer]

I agree with darkblast. Duress should probably be in the sideboard though. feel free to post an alternate deck list or state what you would change if it's only numbers or one card.

[outsideangel]

Gifts Ungiven gives you your combo. The Gifts pile is:
Time Vault
Mizzium Transreliquat
Ritual of Restoration
Argivian Find

If you're going to run a sort of control-ish shell, this seems like the way to go. Four slots for the combo, plus 4x Gifts.

Also, please please please run fetchlands. There's no reason not to, unless you want a bad mana base and hate the thought of making Brainstorm better.

[Brushwagg]

Is there a reason your not running at least 1 Academy Ruins? Since it's basically a Genesis for your artifacts, and makes your oppoent's counters less effective.

[thebadmagicplayer]

@ outsideangel : That seems like an amazing idea. I'm going to draft up a new list over the weekend. I'll add the fetch lands and some regrowth effects to get the deck rolling.


thanks for all the help, i've got alot of ideas off of this. expect to see a new list in a day or two.

[vigilante]

The Gifts Ungiven idea is actually pretty good. I just thought I should point out that the UW Gifts pile of Time Vault, Mizzium Transreliquat, Ritual of Restoration, Argivian Find could be replaced in a mono-blue build with Time Vault, Mizzium Transreliquat, Reconstruction, Academy Ruins (or Rootwater Diver). It's a turn slower, but as Brushwagg pointed out, Academy Ruins adds resiliency and inevitibility to the deck. With the Ritual of Restoration/Argivian Find pile, you'll also need 8WW to start taking extra turns....that almost guarantees that you'll need to set up over multiple turns anyway (ie. you're not going to have 3U for Gifts one turn, then 8WW the next for playing out the whole combo & activating it).

[outsideangel]

If you're going to run white anyway (and you quite possibly will, since Mono-U control sucks) I'd keep Argivian Find, as it's an instant, meaning you can play it on the same EOT step you Gifts. But yeah, Academy Ruins. That's some sexah tech. I'd probably run a 2x.

Anyway, off the top of my head, a U/W Time-Vault Control deck would look something like:

2x Academy Ruins
4x Tundra
4x Flooded Strand
3x Windswept Heath
3x Polluted Delta
4x Island
3x Plains

3x Eternal Dragon

2x Time Vault
2x Mizzium Transreliquat
1x Argivian Find
1x Reconstruction

4x Gifts Ungiven
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Counterspell
4x Wrath of God
4x Swords to Plowshares
(4x empty slot)

I figured I'd leave the last four slots open for some tuning according to whatever metagame you play in, and also because I can't really decide what goes there for sure. Right now I have it as 2x Moat and 2x Echoing Truth, which gives you extra protection vs. creature decks and a MD way to deal with troubling permanents like Pithing Needle.

[Cavius The Great]

Just out of curiosity, wouldn't Ancient Tomb help fuel out the combo, including Gifts?

[Alfred]

Why not just go mono blue with Argivian Restoration? If they choose to give you the stack with the two returners, it's exactly the same cost as Reconstruction/Argivian Find, because you just return the Mizzium Transreliquat with the Restoration, and target the Time Vault with Reconstruction.

It keeps you in color too, and works better against Trinisphere/Glowrider/Sphere of Resistance.

[vigilante]

I almost suggested that myself, Alfred, but I was too caught up with finding lower-CC spells to do the job. Argivian Restoration would also come in handy against discard/artifact destruction if your opponent tried to disrupt you using either of those methods.

Back to the low-CC Gifts Ungiven suggestions, there's Drafna's Restoration (but that combos poorly with the "end of turn Gifts, then play two cheap spells returning the combo pieces to my hand ready for next turn" strategy, as it's a sorcery).

[outsideangel]

Argivian Restoration is better against Trinisphere, though that's not really relevant. I think most of the reason to run it would be as anti-Chalice tech, since it gets around Chalice @ 1, which I like. I still wouldn't cut Argivian Find unless you wanted to make the deck mono-blue, as the instant speed seems more useful, but I could certainly see going

-1 Reconstruction
+1 Argivian Restoration

[vigilante]

For any mono-blue aficionados out there (although it's entirely possible that there's only one -- me), here's a mono-coloured build I threw together.

4 Propaganda
3 Vedalken Shackles
4 Force of Will
1 Reconstruction
1 Argivian Restoration
2 Mizzium Transreliquat
2 Time Vault
4 Gifts Ungiven
4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Brainstorm
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
9 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Academy Ruins
3 Mox Diamond
5 others (including 2-3 win conditions)

I haven't decided on a win condition as yet (although Morphling springs to mind, as does Jodah's Avenger [who's not as hungry on the blue mana]). While it would appear that more countermagic should be required, I think that Shackles and Propaganda (coupled with plenty of card drawing/tutoring to find them quickly) should be able to buy enough time against aggro to set up the combo. Against combo, Shackles/Propaganda are of course rubbish, so the sideboard would need to take this into account. Arcane Laboratory would seem to be a pretty solid SB inclusion.

(As a side note, how awesome would Mana Drain be in this deck if it were legal?!)

[outsideangel]

The Mono-U list looks strong to aggro but weak to combo and stuff with countermagic. I'd up your own countermagic count a bit more, probably as high as 10-12 if possible. I'm not sure what counterspells you would use, maybe something as far out as Misdirection. (hey, it's free, and does what you need it to: protect you) Also, since you're already vulnerable to Wasteland, why not include some artifact lands to pitch to Thirst?

I like the speed the two-mana lands and the Mox Diamonds give you. Makes the deck a lot more aggressive, that's for sure.

Arcane lab does seem strong in the board, maybe in tandem with some more anti-control cards to really force your combo through. (if not Misdirection main, then in the board!)

Also, this is starting to look like a Type 1 thread! Moxen, Gifts Ungiven, Thirst for Knowledge, combo-control, oh my! And you brought up Mana Drain and I just mentioned Misdirection...

[vigilante]

Additional countermagic is definately what I was thinking of putting in as part of the "5 others" slots. However, I suspect that if I start cutting cards from the maindeck and replacing them with countermagic, it'll either slow the deck down or make it more vulnerable to aggro. As it stands at the moment, I've taken a leaf from the Faerie Stompy book and look at FoW like this: it's there to counter something really back-breaking that could stop the combo from coming online, but it doesn't mean the deck's a counterspell-based control deck.

I think that a 4/2 split of Force of Will/Misdirection in the maindeck is probably a good call. I like the idea of my countermagic not tying up mana, which I'd prefer to be spending on draw spells, Gifts, or playing out the combo. I could quite happily include some more mainstream countermagic in the sideboard to bring in against combo and control opponents (alongside Arcane Laboratory), in which case the counterspells could happily replace Vedalken Shackles/Propaganda. Some sort of answer to Pithing Needle will be mandatory (either main or side)...brainstorming on what that answer should be continues...

Artifact lands were considered (re. Thirst for Knowledge), but I disregarded them as they weaken Vedalken Shackles.

[Alfred]

Argivian Restoration is better against Trinisphere, though that's not really relevant. I think most of the reason to run it would be as anti-Chalice tech, since it gets around Chalice @ 1, which I like. I still wouldn't cut Argivian Find unless you wanted to make the deck mono-blue, as the instant speed seems more useful, but I could certainly see going

-1 Reconstruction
+1 Argivian Restoration

True, you can win through chalice by Giftsing Academy Ruins, Restoration and the two artifacts. That's pretty key.

[thebadmagicplayer]

ok, the new list:Creatures

beats:
2 Eternal Dragon


Spells:
1 Argivian Find
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Gifts Ungiven
2 Mystical Tutor
1 Reconstruction
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Wrath of God


Enchantments
4 Propaganda


Artifacts
2 Mizzium Transreliquat
2 Time Vault


Lands
2 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
3 Island
3 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
2 Windswept Heath


the deck shouldn't have too many problems with goblins, and the combo match up is good so i'll be proxy-ing a few cards and testing over the coming weeks.

and a special thanks to outsideangel for the fetch-land idea, you rule!

[Sea R Hill]

Your win condition is really better now, but still not the best IMHO.

I think you depend too much on gifts ungiven. What are you gonna do against countermagic? You just have 4 FoW (******** has 4 FoW, 3 Daze, 3-4 Counterspell) and you won't have 6 mana available when you play Gifts EoT.
Discard is also a problem.

Plus you are too slow to win against any storm-based combo (playing Gifts+Argivian Find is 8 manas for a 2cc spell).

What is the point of playing 4 WoG with 4 Propaganda and 4 StP? It is too much. I'd just keep the Propaganda.

[Lukas Preuss]

Excuse me, but how will this list do good against combo? With 4 Counterspells and 4 FoWs as your only protection and no real clock, Solidarity will just tear you apart.

I'm really curious, since I have been working on a similar deck a few months ago, but it always turned out as a combo-control deck that had either a bad combo or a bad aggro matchup. Aggro might be an okay matchup for you (although I can imagine that Goblins should still be able to race you, most of the time) but combo should be a nightmare.

[thebadmagicplayer]

I guess we'll just have to come up with an anti-combo sideboard. perhaps running stifle, daze, and maybe trinnisphere.

[outsideangel]

I guess we'll just have to come up with an anti-combo sideboard. perhaps running stifle, daze, and maybe trinnisphere.

What about 3sphere and Chalice MD in sort of a blue combo/stax build? Vigilante's list is already sort of going in that direction.

[Zork]

I agree with 3shpere and chalice, and perhaps think that this deck could use Ancient Tomb and/or meddling mage (perhaps mage in place of WoG).

[Sea R Hill]

What about 3sphere and Chalice MD in sort of a blue combo/stax build? Vigilante's list is already sort of going in that direction.

This is not a control deck, this is a combo deck.
It has to have some control elements to manage to survive until the combo is out, but it's not stax!

Plus the chalice does not work well with our cards.

[Cait_Sith]

This is not a control deck, this is a combo deck.
It has to have some control elements to manage to survive until the combo is out, but it's not stax!

For reference, decks like this are Combo-Control.

[Sea R Hill]

For reference, decks like this are Combo-Control.

Yeah, but the combo is not about smokestack, it is about time vault!

[blacklotus3636]

It seems to me that the deck has two choices at this stage. Either it should run the 2 mana lands with moxen and perhaps even signets to accelerate the combo to its maximum speed or it should run more like a control deck with a combo finish.
If you push it more to the combo side I would be in favor of taking out the counterspells in favor of spells such as orims chant and abeyance. I know that seems strange but think of it like this. Orims chant (and to a lesser extent abeyance) can be used proactively or reactively. If you need more time against an aggro deck then simply chant them to give you that extra turn you so desperately need. If you are playing against combo you can use chant and abeyance to stop faster combo decks from totally smashing you before you even get started. If your playing against a control deck then you can use a combination of chant or abeyance on your own turn to make sure you can go off undisrupted. I personally think this is the better way to go because this deck actually doesn't have a ton of room for alot of countermagic and even if it did countermagic in legacy has shown us time and time again that it is ineffective against fast aggro decks like goblins or survival and is not that great against fast storm based combo. So I think the logical conclusion is to dump countermagic in favor of spells that can both buy you time and protect your combo and in some instances give you the chant lock to buy you the time to win outright. Tell me what you think.

Here is the way I would run the proposed deck:

4 brainstorm
4 thirst for knowledge
4 gifts ungiven
3 isochron scepter
4 orim's chant
4 abeyance
2 mizzium transreliquat
2 time vault
1 reconstruction
1 argivian find
2 eternal dragon
3 mox diamond
4 azorius signet
4 ancient tomb
4 city of traitors
4 tundra
4 flooded strand
1 ancient ruins
5 islands

As you can see the cards you have to run:
4 brainstorm
4 thirst for knowledge
4 gifts ungiven
2 mizzium transreliquat
2 time vault
1 reconstruction
1 argivian find
2 eternal dragon

Impedes the direction in which you can take the deck. After you put all this into the deck you only have 17 slots with which to fit everything else in. It seems like a lot but its really not. You either go for acceleration for speed using chants and abeyance for protection and time or you load yourself down with countermagic and creature control to buy you enough time to combo out.

[Sea R Hill]

Using Chant and Abeyance is a good idea.
But the problem is that it eats your mana, when you cast these spells you can't cast the combo ones (unless you are not anymore in the early game, which means that you're in trouble because you don't have any control elements in your list).
But I like the possibility of comboing with scepter too. This could be an idea to test.

I'd cut Gifts, TFK, reconstruction, argivian Find, Azorius Signet.
Gifts is way too slow if you want to be fast. It is Gift + Argivian + Reconstruction + Time Vault + Mizzium + activation = 4+4+1+2+3+3 = 17 manas to start comboing. In my version I only need 8 or 11 at max.
The signet is just too slow. You could just play a vault instead!
Also I would replace the mox diamond by mox chrome: mox diamond only makes your starting hands bad, and you have no way of recurring lands so mox diamond is not the best option here.
You are gonna say that the extra cities or ancient tomb can be discarded, but you have the brainstorm+fetch trick to do that. Plus I've won many times because I was able to tap a city for 2 manas, then drop another city and tap it for 2 manas.
Last, i think that you have too much mana producers. In a deck that plays 8 2-manas land, 22 lands+3 mox are too much.

So take a look at the opened slots:
4 thirst for knowledge
4 gifts ungiven
1 reconstruction
1 argivian find
4 azorius signet
1 Island
1 Ancient Tomb

These are 16 slots. Wow! We could do a lot with that!

Let's start with Tangle Wire. It has great synergy with Time vault and do the same as chant or abeyance in most cases.

4 Serum visions: I'm very fond of this card, it seeks for the combo and help findind lands when needed.

+2 Mizzium TRansreliquat
+2 Time Vault
You should play 4 copies of each spell of your combo. It increases your chance of having it in starting hand or drawing it, and that's what you want when you want to be fast.

4 Fabricate: to go search the missing part of the combo



Wrapping Up:


4 Brainstorm
4 Serum visions
4 Fabricate
3 Isochron scepter
4 Orim's chant
4 Abeyance
4 Mizzium transreliquat
4 Time vault
4 Tangle wire
2 Eternal dragon
3 Mox chrome

3 ancient tomb
4 city of traitors
4 tundra
4 flooded strand
1 ancient ruins
4 islands

This already seems better. It is faster. I really like the opportunity of casting scepter or the mizzium vault combo FTW.

Also this list still needs a lot of improvment. I'd play only 2 Islands (because it is all that we need) and 2 more fetches, to improve the odds of having a tundra, and to do tricks with brainstorm.
I'd also play the win condition i'm playing in my deck, that i think is a lot better that dragon: Meloku. Because you can cast it fast even if you don't have any combo (with only 2-3 lands: Ancient tomb, City of traitors, Island/Mox) and it creates 1/1 tokens (in response to StP). Plus it can be pitched to FoW if you choose to run it (say, instead of abeyance).

This would be the list I'd play:
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum visions
4 Fabricate
4 FoW
2 Meloku

3 Isochron scepter
4 Orim's chant
4 Mizzium transreliquat
4 Time vault
4 Tangle wire

3 Mox chrome

3 ancient tomb
4 city of traitors
4 tundra
4 flooded strand
1 ancient ruins
4 islands

[thebadmagicplayer]

@blacklotus3636: When i posted the deck list I was intended it to be a controll deck with a combo finish. I also like the idea of chant or abeyance, but not both as I feel thatthe slot is actually filled better by FOW or counter spell. and septer is an addition i like too.

@Sea R Hill: as a controll deck with a combo finish, dont you think that devoting the fewest possible slots to the combo would be key to having a potent controll deck? basically minimizing dead draws by only having 4 of them in the deck. the Meloku idea is something new though, to be honest Ididn't think of it and I really like the Idea.

my new deck list W/ Meloku:

4 brainstorm
4 thirst for knowledge
4 gifts ungiven
3 isochron scepter
4 orim's chant
4 force of will
1 mizzium transreliquat
1 time vault
1 reconstruction
1 argivian find
2 meloku
3 propaganda
4 swords to plowshears
3 mox diamond
3 ancient tomb
2 city of traitors
4 tundra
4 flooded strand
1 ancient ruins
5 islands
2 flagstones

card choices:

1 of each combo piece: if i'm tutoring them with the gifts ungiven then it's going to be at the end of the game when I have both the mana and the board superiority to combo out. also, Time vaults are F-ing expensive!!!

land: flagstones are for those pesky stax decks and I'm running less than 4 of each of the two-mana lands because I dont like being mana screwed:rolleyes:

i'll be testing this version of the deck soon but I think we are going to need a side board for the deck.
here's the rough draft:
3 crucible of worlds
4 wrath of god
4 ghostly prison
4 Trinisphere-need something to hose otrer combo

please tell me if i'm screwing this up again.

[Sea R Hill]

When i posted the deck list I was intended it to be a controll deck with a combo finish. I also like the idea of chant or abeyance, but not both as I feel thatthe slot is actually filled better by FOW or counter spell. and septer is an addition i like too.

@Sea R Hill: as a controll deck with a combo finish, dont you think that devoting the fewest possible slots to the combo would be key to having a potent controll deck? basically minimizing dead draws by only having 4 of them in the deck.

Your intent was to build a control deck with a combo finish.
1: We believe, with blacklotus and other players of my team, that a faster combo deck with some control elements is a best way to go.
2: If you want a control deck, change your list. You don't have enough control elements.



also, Time vaults are F-ing expensive!!!

Here you tackle your main problem.
If you don't have money to buy time vaults, don't run this card. Try to build another deck. (in my opinion the time vaults are not so expensive: around 50$ on ebay. FYI they were at 100$ when the flame vault combo decks were played).
No offense, but I was joking with a friend about the first list you posted. "Look he only runs 1 Time Vault!"
I've been developping this deck since the errata came out, and I can tell you that 4 Time Vault is not too much. Not at all in fact!




I feel thatthe slot is actually filled better by FOW or counter spell.

Counterspell is way too slow. You have to keep 2 manas open, so you can't cast the combo.




1 of each combo piece: if i'm tutoring them with the gifts ungiven then it's going to be at the end of the game when I have both the mana and the board superiority to combo out. also, Time vaults are F-ing expensive!!!

Hum, speaking of dead draws... Gifts is one.
Its only use is to go search for time vault, mizzium, etc...
You run 4 Gifts+ mizzium transreliquat+1 time vault+1 reconstruction+1 argivian find, that's 8 cards.
4 Time vault+4 Mizzium are also 8 cards...:tongue:




land: flagstones are for those pesky stax decks and I'm running less than 4 of each of the two-mana lands because I dont like being mana screwed:rolleyes:


I really really don't understand. You run Flagstones because you don't want to be mana screwed, so you prefer to be color screwed?
You don't run 4 Cities because too much mana is bad for your health?




i'll be testing this version of the deck soon but I think we are going to need a side board for the deck.


I have one. I have a SB that is practically MD cauz' I run Burning Wish (awesome).
Before building a SB, work on your list and please... do some testing!
You're declaring "I FEEL that this slot is better filled with..." but you don't have any data to support what you're saying. blacklotus3636's post has only been posted today!

[thebadmagicplayer]

Counterspell is way too slow. You have to keep 2 manas open, so you can't cast the combo.
sorry I ment "or A counter spell" maybe daze or something free"


Here you tackle your main problem.
If you don't have money to buy time vaults, don't run this card. Try to build another deck. (in my opinion the time vaults are not so expensive: around 50$ on ebay. FYI they were at 100$ when the flame vault combo decks were played).

I'm not rich but i can swing for maybe one more vault( I have one from way back). I have many of the cards for the deck but i'm currently spending alot on making IGGY-POP and don't have alot of disposable income at the moment.


No offense, but I was joking with a friend about the first list you posted. "Look he only runs 1 Time Vault!"
I take no offense at that comment, I just feel the deck is just as strong, if not stronger, with only 1 vault. this is probably the point where most of us are torn on. 1 or 4 vaults. I think it's mainly because of the money involved in getting time vaults, even if they're only $50 now.


You're declaring "I FEEL that this slot is better filled with..." but you don't have any data to support what you're saying.

FYI, I've been testing the previous incarnation of the deck with varying results. the match-up data was slightly flawed due to either one of us just drawing like crap while the other drew a god hand. the only useable data was that the deck had a goblin match up of about 50/50 pre-board and 60/40 post. the stax and thresh games are guess, and the combo match is pretty easy. I think the version on my previous post is theoretically better. and as for the whole land base, I tested 4 of each and didn't like it, I either drew too many or not enough. this isn't stax, we dont have MD crucible, and while it's nice to accelerate to eight mana two or three turns faster, you only need to see one or two of those lands. It appears we have two different ideas on how the deck should act, combo-control or control with a combo finish.

[Sea R Hill]

I'm not rich but i can swing for maybe one more vault( I have one from way back). I have many of the cards for the deck but i'm currently spending alot on making IGGY-POP and don't have alot of disposable income at the moment.
1 or 4 vaults. I think it's mainly because of the money involved in getting time vaults, even if they're only $50 now.


I am willing to build the best Time Vault build, regardless of the cost.
I can tell you from a lot of playtest that being able to cast a time vault on turn one followed by a mizzium or tangle on turn 2 is very powerful; It is almost an autowin. And it happens very often when you run 4 time vault along with 4 mizzium and 3-4 tangle wire.
If the deck is better with only one Time Vault I will just say "okay then, i'll run one TV". Just give me the proof.

[thebadmagicplayer]

I'll be testing my version vs. goblins with a white splash, IGGY-POP, U/W/B Fish, TES, UBA STAX/SunTower hybrid, and U/Gw thresh. my next post will most likely be the matchup results. I am expecting the deck to play like landstill, and have a 40/ 60 with thresh since they have a fast clock and a full suit of counters. I will be playing 10 games pre-board and 15 post-board (they board, I don't) to get a feel for how they will side ageinst me so i know what to put in the SB when I make one. If you could do some thing simmilar we may be able to come to a conclusion on the subject of how many TV's to run.

[Sea R Hill]

I'll be testing my version vs. goblins with a white splash, IGGY-POP, U/W/B Fish, TES, UBA STAX/SunTower hybrid, and U/Gw thresh. my next post will most likely be the matchup results. I am expecting the deck to play like landstill, and have a 40/ 60 with thresh since they have a fast clock and a full suit of counters. I will be playing 10 games pre-board and 15 post-board (they board, I don't) to get a feel for how they will side ageinst me so i know what to put in the SB when I make one. If you could do some thing simmilar we may be able to come to a conclusion on the subject of how many TV's to run.

Seems about right.
I already tested my UR version against some decks and I can already give you some results:

Gob: I usually win this MU pretty easily. It is 2-1 in most games. Burning wish into Pyroclasm buy us time, while setting the combo. We could go faster, but we generally have to deal with Matron into Tinkerer and some Wastelands. Pretty easily to recover, either with Goblin Welder, Academy ruins or Burning Wish into Reconstruction. The chrome moxes help us against the wastelands. Here you can see that if they were diamonds, we probably wouldn't have enough lands to recover from wastelands.

Pox: I thought it was not worse testing this MU, because I thought this was an autoloose. Not at all in fact. I have some much ways to recover in my build, every card is powerful and help setting the combo. Mox is very helpfull here too.

Random Aggro: Not the easiest MU. Depends on their creatures. First it was not so easy to deal with creatures with power greater than 2, and if we didn't get the combo cards fast enough, we could loose (I still won against all of them when I playtested it at a local tournament of 30 people, but it was not as easy as expected). Then I've been playing Rolling Earthquake in the SB (this is the most expensive card, not as much as a Unlimited TV, but 40$ for a Earthquake is just a pain in the ass), and these kind of games go well now. This is particularly important to do well against these decks, because they represent betwenn 50 and 75% of the field.

1 kind of deck is totally killing us: Aggro with burn (like BDW). I played against a bad player in the first rounds, and he totally killed me with this deck. We can't deal with Critters AND burn spells together. It is particularly difficult because of Ancient Tomb. Perhaps I had no luck, because I drew one to 2 tombs each time, even when I sideboarded one out for the 2d game.

Now I want to test with 4 Chant + 3 Scepter. It will be difficult, because I want to keep red: we NEED that Burning Wish.

[Caboose]

Ressurected from page 11! Anyways, is this deck viable anymore? I built a list and goldfished with it. It worked well, but it might be too slow for the current format.

//Land - 22
5x Island
4x Flooded Strand
3x Polluted Delta
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
2x Academy Ruins

//Artifacts - 11
4x Chrome Mox
3x Isochron Scepter
2x Mizzium Transreliquent
2x Time Vault

//Spells – 27
4x Brainstorm
4x Thirst For Knowledge
4x Mystical Tutor
4x Force of Will
4x Fabricate
3x Fire//Ice
2x Misdirection
1x Echoing Truth
1x Chain of Vapor


//SB
4x Stifle
4x Propaganda
4x Divert
3x Pithing Needle

Thoughts?

[outsideangel]

Gifts Ungiven for all the combo pieces seems signifigantly stronger than Fabricate for one of them at one less mana. Fire//Ice is pretty weak, especially because barring extreme circumstances, you can't actually play Fire. If you're going to run Fabricate, at least include an E.E. to answer Needle. Also having more ways to interact with the opponent besides 6 pitch counters would be nice.

[Lukas Preuss]

The problem with Gifts Ungiven is, that the best (to my knowledge) Gifts stack is Academy Ruins, Reconstruction, Time Vault, Mizzium Vault, which puts both pieces into your hand but takes some time to set up. And relies on the Graveyard.

If there is a better Gifts Ungiven stack, this deck might become viable... but the current one is most likely not good enough.

[Caboose]

I tried the Gifts plan, and it took way too long. Also, Fire/Ice on a Scepter was a satisfactory kill (it's better than Barbarian Ring). Also, you can tap a huge dude (like a 26/26 Sutured Ghoul) if you're not ready to combo out yet.

My list was actually goldfishing insane, but the only problem is that it probably can't outrace Goblins. That's why I have Propaganda in the board.