[ATW] Landstill

[Jak]

Jak, your taking out the black splash doesn't help you. It actually takes away 3 key things.

Against goblins your taking away deed and engineered plague. Humilty by itself doest wreck the goblins matchup as they can still get through for damage and usually t4 humility is just alittle too late. And pulse is more like a fog in that matchup anyways if your not running solid mass removal.

For dredge your basic idea is that tormod's crypt will win you the game. Which it won't. Idealisticly they can easily set a challice at 0 to completely stop you for a turn. A key turn in which instead of crypting you could just extripate. Even if they did set challice for one and wait a turn thats a turn you could either set deed or atleast drop explosives.

adding 1-2 more monestarys isn't going to win anymore then if your running 1-2. You don't really want seven colorless slots, even in a 3 c standstill.

Overall it's an average 3c build with a worse matchups then you really need it to have. I would rather opt for wasteland's build of 4c wish still as it has more answers, or even tacosnapes solid 4cstill build. They both bring more to the table then a 3 color special that lacks focus and needs more answers.

Don't be a sheep. There are different ways to build this deck and just because a lot of people advocate the 4c versions, doesn't mean all the other versions are crap.

Goblins usually can not win turn 3 or 4. They can, but with stuff to slow them down like StP, FoW and Factories, they are unlikely to win that fast. You don't have deed, but you have wrath which is just as good. Humility does wreck goblins. I don't see how them attacking you with 4 1/1s is a big deal. It also hoses breakfast and any creature based deck.

Everyone knows Tormod's Crypt is not the best answer for dredge. Thanks for the lesson. I don't run black. Deal with it. Ichorid hardly wins turns 1 and 2 anyways which gives me plenty of time to play EE or something. Crypt is still good because it does slow them down. They will not dredge their whole deck into their GY.

I run just 1 more Monastery than most 4c versions. I also run more basics. My manabase is fine.

[Snip] Not appropriate. - Bardo

[mossivo1986]

I'm not flaming. I'm simply stating facts.

#1 Deed is the best universal answer slot for most of the meta currently.
Goblins/ Dredge / Thresh.

#2 Choosing not to run some of the best cards in the format for other choices and a little bit better plan against "blood moon" type effects isn't worth it to me. I'd rather lose a match to a archtype hozer like dragonstompy, than lose a tier one match to say thresh because I wasn't running the consistent answers for my archtype.

I ran across wasteland's list alittle while ago and tested it "I don't know if i'm repeating this." but I fealt like it was Very solid. It has the universal answers and yet still has enough interchangable slots to keep it winning games.

// Lands
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [UNH] Plains
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [B] Tundra
2 [B] Underground Sea
2 [B] Tropical Island
1 [B] Scrubland
1 [B] Savannah
1 [UNH] Island
1 [JU] Nantuko Monastery
1 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
4 [IA] Brainstorm
2 [SC] Stifle
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
4 [IA] Counterspell
2 [TE] Humility
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [OD] Standstill
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [IN] Dismantling Blow
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [IN] Fact or Fiction
SB: 1 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague

[Jak]

Stuff...List

Sorry. I didn't mean to flame. I just got carried away. I just want to say that your thinking is wrong. Deed is aweosme, we know, but it stretching the mana base like that is bad. The list only has it as a 3 of! Not running deed does not mean you lose to goblins or thresh.

Metas are different. I have Dragon Stompy played over here. So saying that you don't want to lose that random MU is wrong, because I play it a lot.

I wouldn't say that I am cutting black, but more of adding green to the UW version. They have different strengths and with WoGs and Humility, I can handle Gobs and Thresh fine. Pernicious deed will hardly make a difference except hit Vials or Needles. Those are important, so I have upped the EE count to 3 in my list and added an Academy Ruins.

Now about the list you posted. You want UU by turn 2 for C Spell, 1BG by turn 3, and then 2WW turn 4. That seems like a difficult task with 6 generic producing lands. I run 7 in my 3 c build and you called that a problem. I really only need UU and WW and I am fine.

[diffy]

Wasteland's list


That list is just plain and simply inferior to our standard UWb List as Wasteland had to experience painfully at the BazaarofWonders Tournament n°5 where he went 2-4 while our UWb List piloted by Muradin took 4th because he had a brainfart in his fifth round against Goblins (countering a Warchief when he has a Humility and a Plague on the board to loose against next turn Blood Moon).

On a general point of view, there is nothing that the 4c list can handle better than UWb can't... Engineered Explosives and Cunning Wish take the role of handling random artifacts/enchantments while Wrath of God is just plain and simply faster to kill creatures (and can't be needled, stifled etc).
The superior manabase makes matchups like Dragon Stompy so much easier as you can just fetch an Island or Plains early on and ignore that Blood Moon/Magus until you want to handle it.
For reference, here (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=180911&postcount=632)'s the list I'm talking about.

[Wasteland]

Well... it must be said, that i would not have won a single match with UWb, that i lost with the 4C version...
It's simply unlucky to fetch 6 times with CoW and draw additional 5 lands in 5 turns, while your opponent gets out a Tombstalker which cant be blocked by ur monastery or factories or to be paired vs. the UW Szepter / Back to Basics hate-pile which was ONLY good vs Landstill ( performed 2:4 too at the end... )
The other 2 Losses were against NQGr, getting bolted to exactly 0, where my opponent played his deck for the first time and drew 4 ( ! ) red blasts and 3 spell snare, and vs- BG vial elves with ports / wastelands / massive discard...

[Shriekmaw]

Well... it must be said, that i would not have won a single match with UWb, that i lost with the 4C version...
It's simply unlucky to fetch 6 times with CoW and draw additional 5 lands in 5 turns, while your opponent gets out a Tombstalker which cant be blocked by ur monastery or factories or to be paired vs. the UW Szepter / Back to Basics hate-pile which was ONLY good vs Landstill ( performed 2:4 too at the end... )
The other 2 Losses were against NQGr, getting bolted to exactly 0, where my opponent played his deck for the first time and drew 4 ( ! ) red blasts and 3 spell snare, and vs- BG vial elves with ports / wastelands / massive discard...


I really dislike when people blame the deck or the cards in the deck for losing games. If your playing a good matchup then you should win a lot unless your mechanics of the game are bad.

If your fetching 6 times and still drawing land then I suggest you shuffle your deck well every time you fetch for a land. You definitely shouldn't be losing to NQGr no matter what version of landstill you are running. I would like to bet that maybe your miss playing this matchup which contributes to your losses.

The key to winning a lot of games in Magic is the ability to shuffle your deck well and make proper mulligans. Then we can focus on your level of skill and know what to do when playing against certain matchups.

[kabal]

You definitely shouldn't be losing to NQGr no matter what version of landstill you are running.

That is untrue, I'm assuming it was a tempo based version with MB Wasteland and Stifles.


The other 2 Losses were against NQGr

What did the deck look like?

[Tacosnape]

The key to winning a lot of games in Magic is the ability to shuffle your deck well

Aside from this having nothing to do with Landstill, it's also completely false, stupid, and indicative of cheating. Shuffling your deck must be an effort to randomize the order of cards in your deck. If you don't understand what Random means, that means randomly getting the perfect land/spell ratio, as well as randomly having mana pockets or being mana screwed. Any effort to develop skill in shuffling to get better hands undermines the concept of shuffling entirely, is cheating, and is useless when a smart opponent shuffles your deck for you once or twice.

[Xenocide]

Aside from this having nothing to do with Landstill, it's also completely false, stupid, and indicative of cheating. Shuffling your deck must be an effort to randomize the order of cards in your deck. If you don't understand what Random means, that means randomly getting the perfect land/spell ratio, as well as randomly having mana pockets or being mana screwed. Any effort to develop skill in shuffling to get better hands undermines the concept of shuffling entirely, is cheating, and is useless when a smart opponent shuffles your deck for you once or twice.

I understood him to mean that unless you shuffle well, your deck won't be sufficiently randomized, which would lead to games where you get mana flooded or mana screwed more easily.

[Shriekmaw]

Aside from this having nothing to do with Landstill, it's also completely false, stupid, and indicative of cheating. Shuffling your deck must be an effort to randomize the order of cards in your deck. If you don't understand what Random means, that means randomly getting the perfect land/spell ratio, as well as randomly having mana pockets or being mana screwed. Any effort to develop skill in shuffling to get better hands undermines the concept of shuffling entirely, is cheating, and is useless when a smart opponent shuffles your deck for you once or twice.


I'm not sure where you got the implication of cheating when I was talking about shuffling your deck well. I'm simple saying from my experience in this game that a lot of players don't take the time to shuffle their deck well before they present their deck to their opponent. The same thing goes for after you use a fetch land, its your responsible to randomize your deck, not just a simple cut. By taking more time to do these small things, will improve the success you have with whatever deck you decide to play.

I have never cheated at this game, I try to improve all areas of my game even though many players focus only on a few. I would appreciate an apology.

[Tacosnape]

I'm not accusing you of cheating. I'm just saying that attempting to shuffle with the intent of improving your deck's drawing consistency is.

In any case, it's still completely ridiculous to say that thorough shuffling eliminates mana flood/mana screw. It does nothing to fix mana flood/mana screw. And insufficient shuffling after a fetchland, while a very bad idea, isn't going to mess your deck up very much, because in theory it was randomized from a shuffle the past time. The only time the shuffle's terribly relevant is if you pick up all your land in a pile from the end of the previous game and then only shuffle a couple brief times before next game.

[diffy]

I really dislike when people blame the deck or the cards in the deck for losing games.
[...]
I would like to bet that maybe your miss playing this matchup which contributes to your losses.


Marius has probably played the NQG matchup more than anyone else on these boards and for sure more than anyone else in Germany. If somebody knows how to play his matchups, than it's Marius.
Also, if Marius says that he got terribly mana flooded, well, then he got mana flooded and there's nothing much you can do about that.

@Topic:

A friend of mine, Harrald Herrlich, just made 3rd place at the GP Stuttgart Legacy side event with a rather unconventional 4c Landstill list (Urbg) featuring a red splash for Lightning Bolt and Burning Wish.
I like Burning Wish in the deck because its like a cheaper Cunning Wish that can get you a wincondition, but I'm rather sceptical if the deck is any good compared to UWb.
I'll edit in his list when he sends it to me.

Edit:

His list:



//// Landstill 2011
/// Mainboard (60 cards)

// Lands
4 Mishra's Factory (http://magiccards.info/aq/en/66.html)
3 Wasteland (http://magiccards.info/mprp/en/1.html)
2 Lonely Sandbar (http://magiccards.info/on/en/320.html)
3 Polluted Delta (http://magiccards.info/on/en/321.html)
4 Flooded Strand (http://magiccards.info/on/en/316.html)
3 Tropical Island (http://magiccards.info/al/en/293.html)
3 Underground Sea (http://magiccards.info/al/en/295.html)
2 Volcanic Island (http://magiccards.info/be/en/302.html)

// Permission
2 Stifle (http://magiccards.info/sc/en/52.html)
4 Counterspell (http://magiccards.info/dcilm/en/1.html)
4 Force of Will (http://magiccards.info/ai/en/42.html)

// Removal
4 Lightning Bolt (http://magiccards.info/al/en/162.html)
2 Engineered Explosives (http://magiccards.info/5dn/en/118.html)
4 Pernicious Deed (http://magiccards.info/ap/en/114.html)
2 Vedalken Shackles (http://magiccards.info/5dn/en/164.html)

// Card Advantage & Quality
4 Brainstorm (http://magiccards.info/mm/en/61.html)
4 Standstill (http://magiccards.info/od/en/102.html)
2 Life from the Loam (http://magiccards.info/rav/en/172.html)
4 Burning Wish (http://magiccards.info/ju/en/83.html)

/// Sideboard (15 cards)
// Wishboard
1 Chainer's Edict (http://magiccards.info/tr/en/57.html)
1 Damnation (http://magiccards.info/pc/en/85.html)
1 Massacre (http://magiccards.info/ne/en/58.html)
1 Cabal Therapy (http://magiccards.info/fnmp/en/60.html)
1 Nostalgic Dreams (http://magiccards.info/tr/en/135.html)
1 Life from the Loam (http://magiccards.info/rav/en/172.html)
1 Hull Breach (http://magiccards.info/ps/en/111.html)
1 Haunting Echoes (http://magiccards.info/od/en/142.html)

//Others
3 Engineered Plague (http://magiccards.info/ul/en/51.html)
4 Extirpate (http://magiccards.info/pc/en/71.html)

[cheddercaveman]

I'm not accusing you of cheating. I'm just saying that attempting to shuffle with the intent of improving your deck's drawing consistency is.

In any case, it's still completely ridiculous to say that thorough shuffling eliminates mana flood/mana screw. It does nothing to fix mana flood/mana screw. And insufficient shuffling after a fetchland, while a very bad idea, isn't going to mess your deck up very much, because in theory it was randomized from a shuffle the past time. The only time the shuffle's terribly relevant is if you pick up all your land in a pile from the end of the previous game and then only shuffle a couple brief times before next game.


I agree in all cases. However, if you play a long game 1 for example, you'll have lots of land in play and lots of non-land (except fetchies) in your 'yard. When you just put those in your deck they stay clumped together a lot of the time and you need to shuffle more to make sure that you don't draw your clumped up lands. Similiarily this situation will happen if you get deck checked at an event and they sort your list to make it easiery for them, and easier for you to get mana screwed/flooded.

[thelemite]

SB:
3 Meddling Mage*
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Extirpate
3 Engineered Plague
2 Krosan Grip

(*This is because seriously the only combo decks in my metagame are Belcher and Ichorid, and I see maybe one every two tournaments. I would never ever seriously do this or recommend it for a blind metagame.)

Taco,

My Meta has a heavy representation of TES in the hands of a few of the better players. How would you alter the SB to deal with this threat?

[Shriekmaw]

A friend of mine, Harrald Herrlich, just made 3rd place at the GP Stuttgart Legacy side event with a rather unconventional 4c Landstill list (Urbg) featuring a red splash for Lightning Bolt and Burning Wish.
I like Burning Wish in the deck because its like a cheaper Cunning Wish that can get you a wincondition, but I'm rather sceptical if the deck is any good compared to UWb.
I'll edit in his list when he sends it to me.

Edit:

His list:



//// Landstill 2011
/// Mainboard (60 cards)

// Lands
4 Mishra's Factory (http://magiccards.info/aq/en/66.html)
3 Wasteland (http://magiccards.info/mprp/en/1.html)
2 Lonely Sandbar (http://magiccards.info/on/en/320.html)
3 Polluted Delta (http://magiccards.info/on/en/321.html)
4 Flooded Strand (http://magiccards.info/on/en/316.html)
3 Tropical Island (http://magiccards.info/al/en/293.html)
3 Underground Sea (http://magiccards.info/al/en/295.html)
2 Volcanic Island (http://magiccards.info/be/en/302.html)

// Permission
2 Stifle (http://magiccards.info/sc/en/52.html)
4 Counterspell (http://magiccards.info/dcilm/en/1.html)
4 Force of Will (http://magiccards.info/ai/en/42.html)

// Removal
4 Lightning Bolt (http://magiccards.info/al/en/162.html)
2 Engineered Explosives (http://magiccards.info/5dn/en/118.html)
4 Pernicious Deed (http://magiccards.info/ap/en/114.html)
2 Vedalken Shackles (http://magiccards.info/5dn/en/164.html)

// Card Advantage & Quality
4 Brainstorm (http://magiccards.info/mm/en/61.html)
4 Standstill (http://magiccards.info/od/en/102.html)
2 Life from the Loam (http://magiccards.info/rav/en/172.html)
4 Burning Wish (http://magiccards.info/ju/en/83.html)

/// Sideboard (15 cards)
// Wishboard
1 Chainer's Edict (http://magiccards.info/tr/en/57.html)
1 Damnation (http://magiccards.info/pc/en/85.html)
1 Massacre (http://magiccards.info/ne/en/58.html)
1 Cabal Therapy (http://magiccards.info/fnmp/en/60.html)
1 Nostalgic Dreams (http://magiccards.info/tr/en/135.html)
1 Life from the Loam (http://magiccards.info/rav/en/172.html)
1 Hull Breach (http://magiccards.info/ps/en/111.html)
1 Haunting Echoes (http://magiccards.info/od/en/142.html)

//Others
3 Engineered Plague (http://magiccards.info/ul/en/51.html)
4 Extirpate (http://magiccards.info/pc/en/71.html)



I think this list of landstill is very interesting and quite good. Your friend was able to make Top 4, so its definitely something to look at.

Some of my quick thoughts in general about the red splash compared to the other colors. The main reason why I'm not a fan of Lightning Bolt is because everyone in there god damn mind is playing Tarmogoyf and L. Bolt does not kill it which is why I love Swords. If I were to run a wish in the deck, I think Cunning Wish would be my choice since its much more versatile.


For the moment I'm playing the traditional U/W build, but with a green splash to play cards such as Monastery and Tarmogoyf. Also, in the sideboard the access of Krosan Grip is very nice.

If your interested in my list, send me a PM.

I've been very happy with it so far.

[Tacosnape]

Taco,

My Meta has a heavy representation of TES in the hands of a few of the better players. How would you alter the SB to deal with this threat?

I guess it would depend on how thoroughly I wanted to improve my TES match and how much I wanted to risk harming others.

Your TES match is already pretty good if you run Snares and Stifles (Not so much if you run Tarmogoyf.) Chant is annoying and can kill you, but due to Deed/EE, you're pretty solid against Empty the Warrens even if you get Chanted.

If I wanted to go -really- heavy against TES and there was a ton of it, I'd probably run a board of something like this:

4 Meddling Mage
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Extirpate
2 Engineered Plague

And against TES, my boarding plan would be:

+4 Meddling Mage
+4 Blue Elemental Blast
+3 Chalice of the Void
+2 Engineered Plague
-1 Life From The Loam
-2 Diabolic Edict
-3 Fact or Fiction
-3 Pernicious Deed
-4 Standstill

However, if I wasn't willing to sacrifice as much to stop TES, I'd go with something like:

SB:
4 Meddling Mage
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Engineered Plague
3 Extirpate
1 Whatever

And my SB plan would be

+4 Meddling Mage
+4 Blue Elemental Blast
+3 Engineered Plague
-1 Life From The Loam
-2 Diabolic Edict
-3 Fact or Fiction
-3 Standstill
-2 Pernicious Deed

This still gives you a fairly good match.

Leaving Swords to Plowshares in is a very good idea, due to the deck's tendency to bring in Xantid Swarm, as well as some versions trying Confidant, as well as the deck panicking under Magelock and trying to beat you to death with Simian Spirit Guides (Though Belcher is more Apt to try this than TES.)

Chalice would be my choice as the additional anti-TES card because of its incredible ease to cast for 0, because it leaves you with a mana open on turn one, and because by taking away the 0-mana contributors, you all but force your opponent to have to go off with Red spells, which maximizes what you get out of Blue Elemental Blast. Counterbalance would be my second choice due to its versatility, or possibly even Children of Korlis.

For what it's worth, I've found Extirpate to be pretty crappy against TES. I tried it a few times out of principle, and found that most of the other stuff you leave in would be better. TES is incredibly versatile and tends to just shrug off Extirpate.

Also, your chances of having the mana to cast Plague on turn 3 are higher than that of casting Deed on turn 3, so I'd make the switch here based on Warrens answering. Deed's better at sweeping moxes and preventing a recovery, but the consistency of Plague's probably worth it.

EDIT: I'd be happy to hear additional posts from Wastedlife or any TES expert who might could further enlighten us on additional / better ways for Landstill to win.

[Zach Tartell]

I just took like twenty minutes to write out a detailed post about how Testing with Bryant (wasted) earlier tonight changed my view on the LS/TES matchup, but then my internet decided to be a bastard and reset, taking my magnificatnly crafted post with it.

In short, the 8 Chant version of TES gives LS headaches. Bryant's current (and probably most efficient in a blind meta) list runs the ponders instead of the abeyances, which I personally don't like (though, to be fair, it wasn't me who won TMLO:II day one with it, and the EPIC DLD).

Adding Counterbalance/top to your LS list is amazing, if you have a super shitty curve and can cover the 3 slot. I find that this is difficult without main-decking bad cards, such as Shackles or... tranquility. Not to say that either of those are bad, but the orrigional idea of LS is to give your opponent's few or no options to use their cards in a relevant fashion, and I feel that having potentially dead cards main to help against bad matches (goblins pre-board, ect) is a bad idea. Pernicous Deed is nice in the 3 slot, but unfortunately also dictates that you run at least a 3 color manabase (I am not personally fond of this)(I realize that I actually played a 5 color build of Enchantress once. Thank you, interruptor Jones.).

I'll post my most recent list (Mostly mono-Uw) tomorrow or the day after. It's wicked cold in oswego.

ANyway, to sum up, Landstill should try to force his combo opponent to wait as long as possible to go off. The longer that he waits, the better the LS player's hand will be. If you can stall long enough and force him into the late game, you will almost always win. Seriously. Stifle, Spell Snare, Force of WIlls, and occasionally REB/BEB's help the shutting down your opponent for little mana cause pretty well.

Again, (and I hate being that guy who appologizes for being up late) it's late, and I'll make a more on point post tomorrow.

[BreathWeapon]

As odd as it sounds, Wasteland is a good anti TES card after the inclusion of Orim's Chant and Abeyance, because TES is reliant on W mana on the combo, and eliminating their W source forces them to gamble with a blind Orim's Chant and Abeyance instead of casting it on the combo turn.

SBing options against the deck are innumerable, the question isn't whether or not Landstill should SB answers for Storm Combo, which I could some up with Orim's Chant and Chalice of the Void, but what are the best answers for Storm Combo that contribute to other match ups? Meddling Mage is a good choice and so is Null Rod to a certain extent, after that Blue Elemental blast covers Red Storm Combo and Goblins and Piracy Charm covers Storm Combo (you either force them to discard a card, kill a Xantid Swarm or force them to discard a card during the Ill Gotten Gains chain) and Cephalid Breakfast.

[Locutus]

Some of my quick thoughts in general about the red splash compared to the other colors. The main reason why I'm not a fan of Lightning Bolt is because everyone in there god damn mind is playing Tarmogoyf and L. Bolt does not kill it which is why I love Swords. If I were to run a wish in the deck, I think Cunning Wish would be my choice since its much more versatile.

Against Goyf, you have:
4 Deed
4 Wish
2 Shackles
2 Explosives
which gives you a 3:1 Answers to Tarmogofy ratio, not counting in the counters.
Also, against combo or control, Lightning Bolt doesn't suck as much as swords. In the first game against Landstill an sunday, my opponent was able to stabilize with crucible and multiple Mishra's after going down to 6, but died because of double bolt.
And Burning Wish offers much more versatility than Cunning Wish, as sorceries generally have better effects than instants, and Haunting Echoes nearly always wins the game when it resolves.

[slyfer]

@lonelybaritone
so your decklist??? Are you under 3 meters of snow?? :laugh:
Internet cut-off in all the State? :laugh:

[Nightmare]

@lonelybaritone
so your decklist??? Are you under 3 meters of snow?? :laugh:
Internet cut-off in all the State? :laugh:
I've asked him to not post it, since it's strikingly similar to something I'm working on, and he was worried about stealing my thunder. Considering I gave him all the innovation in his list, he's being cool about it. You'll get a nice dose of new in the CaNGDIII next month, so don't worry.

[mossivo1986]

I've been noticing online seeing alot of control builds of still and just plain control decks running haunting Echoes. This bothers me as a maindeck inclusion to any type of control deck. To me it's not removal and it's extremely slow. It does wreck if it resolves with alot of junk in grave, but I don't see why people are playing a 5drop tormod's crypt splice splied on to a bad extirpate. i'm really clueless. And whats worse is it's maindeck. Say goodnight to your combo matchup.

But I did face off against a u/b still variant last night that pretty much wrecked me. First with haunting echoes and then he started cycling decree of pain I believe as well as other obscene plays. I admit it did wreck me. Usually I get beat by decks I haven't ever played or don't know what cards they run. Anyone got a list to help a brotha out?

I've also been noticing alot of the landstill builds from worlds were running enlightened tutor with a toolbox sideboard. Along with the obvious stp and brainstorm. as well as some other one ofs.

To me those builds are begging to be challice'd for 1. Please take me, make me your bitch. Smack me around and call me susy.

Also worlds was really sick. I fealt like the pro's kind of made a mockery of the format by playing that much threshhold and cephalid life.

[Zach Tartell]

@lonelybaritone
so your decklist??? Are you under 3 meters of snow?? :laugh:
Internet cut-off in all the State? :laugh:

Only like eighteen inches, which is why I ended up staying in Oswego after a night in 'Cuse testing with the boys.

I could post the non-essential list, which looks too much like everything else here to be noteworthy, and would probably just piss you off.

The inclusion of Counterbalance in Landstill is awesome, but ultimately difficult to do well, because you need to incluse a decent spread of cards from 0 (about 23-25 land) to 5 (which is arduous, because nobody wants to play shit that isn't FOW in that slot). 1 and 2 are relatively easy, because you have Top x3, Counterbalance x3, Brainstorm x4, Swords x4, Standstill x3 or 4 (I may have cut one just for space), Counterspell x2 or 3, and Stifle x3. This list is pretty easy to think up.

The problem are the slots at 3-5, particularly 3, 4, and.... 5. Wow, I suck at writing.

Anyway, for 3 you have some pretty good options:

Deed
Shackles
Cunning Wish
Curcible of Worlds
Pyknite


Four is tough, too, after Wrath. Obvioous choices include:

Nevvy's Disk
Decree (yeah - x's are 0's)
Fact or Fiction
I really can't think of a fourth


Five is perhaps the most difficult:

Force
...Future sight?


Five is pretty desolate, 'scept for force. I guess that's where you need your Counterspells and FOW's yourself.

Is that enough without revealing our secret tech? Gimme a holler if you're not placated.

[Arsenal]

MisD is 5cc, although, I don't know how relevant it would be in LandStill. And Future Sight is busted if it ever gets going.

[Phantom]

I've always thought that people worry way too much about their curve when they run Counterbalance. I mean, even if you only counter one of every three spells they play, you still win that game 95% of the time, right?

[Arsenal]

I've always thought that people worry way too much about their curve when they run Counterbalance. I mean, even if you only counter one of every three spells they play, you still win that game 95% of the time, right?

I agree. If you are to run CounterTop, the 1-3cc slots are vital to have answers for. The 4-5 slots, while important, largely take a back seat. The hard counters you don't need to cast on the 1-3cc slots (because of CounterTop), you save for your opponent's 4-6 mana threats.

And you're right, you don't need to counter every single last spell your opponent could theoretically have, just a large portion, or at least, the crucial spells your opponent needs to resolve. 1/3 isn't bad, I agree. We still play sweepers to catch whatever slipped through.

[Osse]

And you're right, you don't need to counter every single last spell your opponent could theoretically have, just a large portion, or at least, the crucial spells your opponent needs to resolve. 1/3 isn't bad, I agree. We still play sweepers to catch whatever slipped through.

That seems to be the problem though, people are using CounterTop over actual hard counters. They're losing to the spells that only Force can hit, because they're not running Answers/Hard counters. I'm not saying this is the case with Landstill, as my experience with it is limited, but its very much the case with NQG, where everytime I cast CounterTop, I end up losing to deed or Smokestack or something Relevant. Basically, don't just throw CounterTop into the deck because its cute. If you're actually losing to certain decks where CounterTop would help (Does Landstill lose to Fish or something?..) then go for it, and even then, shouldn't it just be a Sideboard slot(s)?. I have to admit though, Enlightened Tutor seems kinda hot with Standstill and Counterbalance (They eot pop your landstill, you respond with ET, fetching Cbalance/Top (Whichever is missing..). Seems neat).

As for the mana curve, yeah, it's tough. But do you play bad cards maindeck to make CbalaneTop good in every matchup? Or play good cards, to make CbalanceTop good where it needs to be?

[Shriekmaw]

Adding Counterbalance/top to your LS list is amazing, if you have a super shitty curve and can cover the 3 slot. I find that this is difficult without main-decking bad cards, such as Shackles or... tranquility. Not to say that either of those are bad, but the orrigional idea of LS is to give your opponent's few or no options to use their cards in a relevant fashion, and I feel that having potentially dead cards main to help against bad matches (goblins pre-board, ect) is a bad idea. Pernicous Deed is nice in the 3 slot, but unfortunately also dictates that you run at least a 3 color manabase


I'm not a fan of the Counterbalance/Top package in Landstill, and overall I'm not that impressed by it. I can see how it does improve your combo matchup, but that matchup is pretty good anyways. I really believe combo is not a problem especially after game 1.

Personally, I would only run the counterbalance package with the inclusion of enlightened tutor. Having the ability to go get the other piece of the combo is very important and even more so in Landstill. I believe Zvi put up a very good build of the deck that he played at Worlds for the Legacy portion.

Right now I'm splashing a third color in landstill, but I can see why a lot of players prefer the straight old U/W version. Its just more consistent over the course of many tournaments.

[BreathWeapon]

Counterbalance and Sensei's Divining Top in control is overrated, it isn't suppose to be able to counter the opponent's entire deck, it's suppose to be a one sided Chalice of the Void for one in a deck that curves out at two so it can also double as a one sided Chalice of the Void for two. It makes sense in aggro-control because aggro-control's curve is two and the opponent's curve is identical in the mirror, therefore it's suited to that archetype, but if you build control's curve around Counterbalance instead of adding Counterbalance into a deck that's suited for it, you either end up bashing your head against the wall or playing Enlightened Tutor (visa vi Zvi).

I don't get the reasoning for Counterbalance either, isn't Pernicious Deed, Standstill, Stifle and Wasteland enough to dominate the aggro-control match up?

As an aside, a 5cc card worth including for Counterbalance is Shriekmaw, that card does everything!

[Jiaozy]

Four is tough, too, after Wrath. Obvious choices include:

Nevvy's Disk
Decree (yeah - x's are 0's)
Fact or Fiction
I really can't think of a fourth
Over Disk I'd play, at least

Humility
Moat
Chengeling Berserker :cool:

[Tacosnape]

Disk is underrated in Landstill builds that don't run either white or both black and green (In otherwords, UB, UBR, UR, UG, etc.) It's still a godlike board sweeper and it's not like Landstill can't stall until turn four.

There's a lot of Nevinyrral's Disk in my metagame and I've played against it enough to realize that while it's not Pernicious Deed, it's still pretty good and can cause me problems.

[blac198990]

Ive been playing a list that I have kind of scrounged up at the last minute because I didn't feel like playing my narcobridge, and I also wanted to try landstill with 2 different cards.

here is my list:

land:
4 underground sea
4 tropical island
3 tundra
3 polluted delta
3 flooded strand
4 mishra's factory
2 nantuko monastery

enchantment:
4 standstill
4 pernicious deed

instant:
4 force of will
4 brainstorm
4 swords to plowshares
4 counterspell
2 diabolic edict/smother matters if goblins there
3 stifle
2 fact or fiction

creature:
4 tarmogoyf

secret tech:
2 garruk wildspeaker

sideboard:
4 sensei's divining top
4 counterbalance
3 extripate
2 krosan grip
2 trickbind


The decklist, is a mix of the old bhwc build and bardo's build. I took first in a tourny last night with about 12 ppl showing up. The decks varied from threshold, RGW beats, RGWB beats, narcobridge, 42 land, sui black,and a couple of rogue decks.

match 1: vince RGW beats
His deck was the average aggro deck with tarm burn and weenies.
We rolled dice, I won the roll to go first.
I started off by playing a trop and saying go.
He plays a bloodstained mire, I stifle and he curses.
next turn I drop a tarm and say go.
he draws a card, doesnt lay a land and says go.
as you might see, this goes on for a couple of turns.
eventually he gets a land but to far down in life to help.

second game, I have to mullugan down to 5( didnt see any land at all)
this match didnt go to well, i didnt get more than 3 land, no goyfs and he had 3 with burn back up.

third game
It didnt go too well in the beggining, with him dropping guys like crazy. burning my goyfs. he put me down to 4 life and I deed the board. he plays his fireblast in response(which is his last card in hand) and I luckily had a force waiting. then I drop my last goyf and said go. somehow i draw 3 standstills in a row and slowly draw my cards again and win this match with 1 life.
1-0
second match is against bobby with 42 land
now I figured I would get wiped in this match up.
First game I play land and say go. he wastelands with me stifling it. then I drop a goyf, he plays second waste, I topdeck a trop like a champ and play a second goyf. I just attack like crazy and he seems not to hit a single life the whole game and I win with goyf.
second game, I have 3 land in hand with no stifle. I was able to drop a goyf then he wastelands twice, then next turn he plays loam and starts engine. I got another land and played 1 more goyf. he wastes both of my land and Im slowly killing him with him havin 1 maze of ith on board. I put him down to 7 life and he finally gets some blockers. then I drop a sea and extripate his loam, he curses but then wastelands my land and drops tabernacle land and a lose my creatures, he kills me in 2 turns.
game three, we had a stifle wasteland war, which he won eventually with life, but I was able to keep strong till midgame when I was able tp extripate his life and stablize myself. but by this time he has a couple of creatures swinging, as hes beating me down to 12 life, I drop my new idea, I added for the deck, Garruk wildspeaker, and put a token into play, he attacks with 2 guys, I swords 1 and block the other, this is where i made my mistake, i started going on the offensive and take this match back, then ding the time runs out and I get 3 turns to kill him. this is where I made my mistake, I forgot to use garruks ability to untap 2 land on my first turn which led me to only have 3 counters on my last turn and when I attacked with 1 token and 2 goyfs, I was able to stifle his ith so all of my guys swung in, he had 15 life and I was only able to do 13 with my guys, if i had the one counter i could have given them over run and won.
1-0-1
third match gus tes
this match was vague really, first game he combos off first second turn, with me forcing to counter his chant and then not having a counter to stop him.
second game, was him mulluguning down to 5 and I drop down 2 goyfs before he has enough to go off, then he tries to go off, I counter his chant and then counter his tutor which forced him to use tendrals for only 12 damage, then after 2 turns hes dead.
3rd game, I dont rememer much about this, other than he tried to go off twice, but I had more counters than needed. with no creatures ever, we ran out of time and tied.
1-0-2
the last round.
this game was against a person new to the shop, who was playing RGW Beats, I'm not going into this because it ended just like the first guy, he was able to get me to low life, but I was able to stable out and beat him.
2-0-2
playoffs
I made it to the playoffs at the 4th spot out of 4 which made me face bobby again with 42 lands since he went 3-0-1, luckily the games were pretty much the same but without a time limit. first game, goyf out raced, second game, extripate wins it.

finals: this game was against a man by the name of adam who was playing a BGU gro deck with main creatures of goyf/dryad with deed back up and counter/draw.
aw hell why am I telling you this, by this time, it was about 11:30 at night and Adam and I decided to split first to go play some EDH


sry if there is any spelling errors, I'm not that great at writing on a rush.

In conclusion to this tourny, my worst matchup(42 lands) is now not a bad matchup with goyf, and the straight beats decks which can get us sometimes before we can deed away is easily beatable with goyf. also I could say that goyf has literally boosted every single matchup. I have liked garruk, but I will have to try some more before ill decide, if played, garruk means instant win. I'm sorry I have not told what I sideboarded in just for the fact, that I dont remember. also with this I have decided to take out the countertop in my sideboard to go with this:

4 extirpate
4 meddling mage
3 krosan grip
2 engineered plague
2 trickbind

[Tacosnape]

I'm also Tinkering around with Garruk, as Planeswalkers are proving to be really strong in my control-infested metagame. He's proving to be far stronger than Jace (Except that Jace pitches to Force of Will and is significantly easier to cast), and he's giving me outs against all the Maindeck Port-And-Extirpate Rock builds infesting my metagame and making Landstill a nightmare to play.

One of the best things about Garruk Wildspeaker is that depending on your board state, he can either open up Counterspell Mana for you via the Untap ability, or protect himself from dying via the make a 3/3 ability (Though often an opponent will remove the 3/3, then swing at Garruk.)

My personal conclusion so far is that Garruk is much, much better in UBG Landstill without the white splash than he is in 4C, as he's a fantastic secondary kill if you don't have Monestary and he's much better if you have the manabase to consistently back him up.

[blac198990]

I'm also Tinkering around with Garruk, as Planeswalkers are proving to be really strong in my control-infested metagame. He's proving to be far stronger than Jace (Except that Jace pitches to Force of Will and is significantly easier to cast), and he's giving me outs against all the Maindeck Port-And-Extirpate Rock builds infesting my metagame and making Landstill a nightmare to play.

One of the best things about Garruk Wildspeaker is that depending on your board state, he can either open up Counterspell Mana for you via the Untap ability, or protect himself from dying via the make a 3/3 ability (Though often an opponent will remove the 3/3, then swing at Garruk.)

My personal conclusion so far is that Garruk is much, much better in UBG Landstill without the white splash than he is in 4C, as he's a fantastic secondary kill if you don't have Monestary and he's much better if you have the manabase to consistently back him up.

I have also noticed this and have thought of dropping white. I didnt have a problem with this because I can replace stp with smother, the only thing is that I will have to find a replacement for mage in the board.

with garruk, I found that even though he costs 4, if you dont need a blocker that turn, he only costs 2 and if you do need a blocker, he gives you 1 every other turn. which is dam good with standstill.

about the fact that they will kill your creature then swing into to attack garruk, I had a couple of times where this happened. and it didnt bother me to much when it happened because when they did this, if it was late game, they wasted a removal on a token and also an extra turn where they could have hit you for life, which gives you another turn to try to get a removal, a creature or deed. which alot of times that one turn is what I need to get to win and sometimes a monestary wont do it because it can easily be removed.


when I played with garruk, he was a good card throu a couple of testing, which in my opinion, a new card needs to be great before ill add it, but when I got to 2 matchups, it shined like no other. the first one is threshold. if you can get it to stick, this card usually means game with threshold. they just cant keep up. and usually they cant remove it. which isnt a too big of a deal bc landstill doesnt have a horrible matchup against threshold.

the but the one matchup that completly blew me out of the water was the 42 land.dec. if I put garruk out, it means game. one part is that they cant keep up with the creatures, and with it out, their wasteland attack doesnt have a huge effect. also it ruins the rashidan port plan, and it ruins the tabernacle plan cuz u can just let it die and bring another one into play. I played 2 games against a man named bobby at my shop ( hes a very experienced 42 land.dec pilot, one of the best i've seen, he went 3-0-1 with his draw to me, and then I beat him in playoffs, look above for report.) and I beat him once and tied him the other time, but if I have one more turn, I could have beaten him, I just needed to do 2 damage more.

I had thoughts of dropping white to add smother, garruk,and thoughtseize.


also, garruks only bad matchup is combo jsut because he costs so much, but a deck always needs card to side out for sideboard:smile:

[Tacosnape]

How do they not just shut you down with Maze of Ith and The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, exactly? Or for that matter, how do they not just Keldon Megaliths / Barbarian Ring him to death?

[BreathWeapon]

I've used him in UBG Threshold since he was released, and he's one of the main reasons I cut White. Between him and Shriekmaw, the deck has a lot more win conditions than it use to, so it doesn't matter if you cut Nantuko Monastery and replace Swords to Plowshares with an equivalent removal spell, Nantuko Monastery has been lacking since Tarmogoyf pushed the power toughness ratio over 4 any way.

He's just a retardedly powerful and synergistic 4cc bomb that doesn't require you to drop your defenses.

[blac198990]

How do they not just shut you down with Maze of Ith and The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, exactly? Or for that matter, how do they not just Keldon Megaliths / Barbarian Ring him to death?

well with tarmogoyf, your pretty much making standstill into a control aggro deck, and you just put a clock on them, usually if ur just vigilent with it, they usually have a problem getting more than 1 maze, 2 at the most. and yes tabernacle is still a pain and one of the reasons I lost one game to him, its more the fact is I try to keep him from using life as much as I can.

the ring, didnt come into effect untill the playoffs only because hes never worked with planeswalker so He didnt realize that you can redirect damage from the ring to garruk, he thought you had to attack it.(hes not much of a type 2 person, mainly 1.5) and this is the first time hes seen one in action,(my first time too, but I made sure I knew what I was doing with him.)


Its just the fact that tarmogoyf is so fast that he has to take drastic measures to try and remove him, and it makes it hard on them.

[Bardo]

With all this talk about U/b/g Landstill, I thought I'd share my current list.

Vorosh Control
by Bardo

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
2 Fact or Fiction

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell

4 Pernicious Deed
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Vedalken Shackles
2 Crucible of Worlds

4 Tarmogoyf
2 Shriekmaw / Smother / Edict / Garruk

4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
3 Island
1 Faerie Conclave
1 Tolaria West (?)
1 Academy Ruins
1 Maze of Ith / Tabernacle

Sideboard
4 Engineered Plague
4 Extirpate
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Mindslaver

Any thoughts on making it better? I'm not terribly fond of the sideboard.

FWIW, earlier today the Lilliana Vess I got from a MOTL trade arrived, so I'll see how she does here.

Edit - Re: Lilliana. Not so good; 3BB is a whole lot of mana.

[Jak]

Have you ever wanted more Counters like Mana Leak or Spell Snare? Or even Stifle? I always want as many counters as possible. Just my playstyle, probably.

[Bardo]

Have you ever wanted more Counters like Mana Leak or Spell Snare? Or even Stifle? I always want as many counters as possible. Just my playstyle, probably.

You're normally so busy committing mana for your powerful permanents in your main phases, that more reactive cards kinda get in the way.

When you start adding cards like Deed, Shackles, Goyf (EE and Standstill to a somewhat lesser degree) you move away from a reactive draw-go kind of deck and start playing a deck that trades timing flexibility for raw power.

To answer your question, the Goyfs were Spell Snares and Stifles, but were dropped to have a more active and aggresive gameplan.

[Mister Agent]

Bardo's list above. (post #788)

I was wondering Bardo have you tried eternal witness? I think it could be worth testing at least since you can bring back your utility cards as well as goyfs. Although double green could be hard on your manabase but I think it might be worth looking into.

[blac198990]

As a landstill fanatic that loves monastery, If I switched to BGU(which I havnt done close to enough testing with christmas and all.)this would be the list

land:
4 underground sea
4 tropical island
1 island
2 bayou
4 polluted delta
3 flooded strand
4 mishra's factory

enchantment:
4 standstill
4 pernicious deed

instant:
4 force of will
4 brainstorm
4 smother
4 counterspell
2 diabolic edict
2 stifle
2 fact or fiction

artifact:
2 engineered explosives

creature:
4 tarmogoyf

secret tech:
2 garruk wildspeaker

sideboard:
4 extripate
3 krosan grip
2 trickbind
4 thoughtseize
2 chill(mainly because I have alot of red aggro)


I kinda took bardo's idea with having deed and ee, and it really does work well, not sure if garruk with worth dropping white but I got lots of testing to do.

[Zach Tartell]

First of all, and actually pretty important, is anyone else having problems getting planeswalkers into their deck on MWS if they don't have creatures in the list? Mine is only working because I have a copy of the 1996 world champion, or whatever, in the deck.



list
Gassing on about landstill

Sorry about my quoting skills - I deleted most of your post when I was cutting out the list, but I honestly don't care enough to go back and patch it in.

How are those two Bayous treating you? On a car ride back from TMLO:III or some other, similarly distant event (NOVA, now that I think about it), we (EPIC crew) threw together a UBg list we called Landfill because it wasn't really Landstill-y enough, and it included a couple copies of LFTL, from which we apparrently gleaned the suffix -fill. In any event, Counterspell was wicked hard to cast, but all of the creature kill (and Tarmogoyfs, born of Scott Scheywer's LS list at the event) was easy as... something easy. Your mom, maybe. End result: I'm not sure that non-blue duals are right, unless they're Scrublands or Savannahs, and you're plainscycling for them.

Now, my standard "I'm not drunk, no matter what Matt says, but I still have some animosity towards your list - not you" disclaimer is in effect:

Two stifle. Okay, I'm down with that. But, when the careful observer draws his eyes farther down the list, he discovers two copies of Trickbind. Now, I must ask you - what the hell is up with that? Why not make it 4 Stifle? Is the "Danger of Cool Things" un-counterability of Trickbind cool enough to make it turn two you make belcher lose? TES is always fluctuating between 4, 6, and 8 chants main, so I can't really use them as an example, but what about SI? Don't they win turn one somethetimes? That's Stifle territory, my bromide. Broseph. Brother. Just wondering.

Also, what would a dedicated control (i.e. "My life total is my only concern until turn 100") deck want with Thoughtsieze? Did I spell that right? I always mess up the "i" and the "e." Anyway, I honestly can't see what you'd want to have Thoughtsieze against that Duress wouldn't do better. Against Goblins you are not boarding that shit in. Breakfast should be pretty good already, what with 4 Stifle-effects, 4 Extirpate, 4 Deed and 2 EE. What do you want them for? The Enchantress match? I'd drop that shit like a trig class.

Also, and this is a completely honest thing, I think you need some anti-Magus of the Moon tech. 1 Island and a sideboard of hope and prayers don't cut it, in my book (that is actually gramatically correct, since it's a plurar subject). I'd like to see a basic Swamp (which is fetchable), Hydroblasts (which are more potent 1-shot answers against red), and/or... a third option. Ah! Slaughter pact! Thank you, Zulander!

[Bardo]

@ blac198990 - I agree with LonelyBaritone on the Bayous. I own a single Bayou and used to run it in GAT for no other than reason than "nine duals is better than eight, right?" No. Even that single Bayou forced me to mulligan otherwise keepable hands or wouldn't let me do everything I wanted in the same turn.

Anyway, I'm pretty much positive that basic Islands or more fetchlands are just better there.

@ AgentFunk - I haven't tried Witness here and it never really occurred to me. Basically, any doubled colored-mana cost that isn't blue is a real pain in the ass to cast, since you have those colorless sources and two secondary colors to support. Any xGG or xBB spell should win the game for you (e.g. Haunting Echoes).

In this deck, Witness is a harder to cast Regrowth with an unimpressive 2/1 body attached. If she could be abused here (Slide) or you really needed the utility (G/B/x Rock), then maybe.

[Mister Agent]

@ blac198990 - I agree with LonelyBaritone on the Bayous. I own a single Bayou and used to run it in GAT for no other than reason than "nine duals is better than eight, right?" No. Even that single Bayou forced me to mulligan otherwise keepable hands or wouldn't let me do everything I wanted in the same turn.

Anyway, I'm pretty much positive that basic Islands or more fetchlands are just better there.

@ AgentFunk - I haven't tried Witness here and it never really occurred to me. Basically, any doubled colored-mana cost that isn't blue is a real pain in the ass to cast, since you have those colorless sources and two secondary colors to support. Any xGG or xBB spell should win the game for you (e.g. Haunting Echoes).

In this deck, Witness is a harder to cast Regrowth with an unimpressive 2/1 body attached. If she could be abused here (Slide) or you really needed the utility (G/B/x Rock), then maybe.

Yeah I figured that witness wouldn't help that much considering it doesn't really do anything that significant in the game state. I mean so what if it can bring back standstills because that's when fact or fictions and other utility comes in. Maybe you can run cunning wish in your ugb landstill bardo.

[Nihil Credo]

Thought I'd share this build (Simone Giovannetti's) which is pretty interesting. It went unbeaten at yesterday's 114-player Legacygeddon, defeating RG Beatz, Angel Stompy w/ green splash, 38 Lands, Black Thresh (with maindeck Wastes and Extirpate), RW Goblins, RW Goblins again (another list with Wastes and no Ports), and a Goyf-still deck very similar to Antonino de Rosa's.

Giovannetti's comments: Tombstalker is chosen over Tarmogoyf for several reasons: it doesn't die from Smother and Demise which have been HEAVILY played of late as Goyf answers, it doesn't die from Deed, and it shrinks opponent's Goyfs. The SB is tuned against Goblins (a staple in Finale tournaments) and secondarily against Thresh and the mirror.

// Lands
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [A] Tundra
1 [A] Island (1)
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [A] Tropical Island
4 [A] Underground Sea
3 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
3 [FUT] Tombstalker

// Spells
4 [A] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [SC] Stifle
2 [IN] Fact or Fiction
2 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [A] Counterspell
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [DIS] Crime/Punishment

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [A] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [US] Duress

[Tacosnape]

That's a pretty badass list. It maximizes the use of Stifle by running Wasteland over Nantuko Monestary, which is a completely viable choice when you run a decent alternate kill condition.

The lack of Mage in the sideboard makes me cringe, however. Maybe it's just the skill level of the people who play these decks as Mage/Therapy/Needle are only as awesome as the ability of the player to name cards, but I win more games by shutting my opponent down via Mage than I can possibly count, and I can't imagine a matchup where I'd rather have Duress than Mage.

I think that if you aren't running Mage, there's no real reason to be running white over straight UBG. Swords to Plowshares loses little by becoming Innocent Blood or Smother, and the only other card that runs white in that deck is Crime, which could easily be a second Explosives. Plus, the double black for Tombstalker is easier to come across in a UBG build (Ditto for double green on Garruk.)

[Nihil Credo]

I think that if you aren't running Mage, there's no real reason to be running white over straight UBG. Swords to Plowshares loses little by becoming Innocent Blood or Smother, and the only other card that runs white in that deck is Crime, which could easily be a second Explosives. Plus, the double black for Tombstalker is easier to come across in a UBG build (Ditto for double green on Garruk.)
Shriekmaw comes to mind too. Can't kill Tombstalker, similarly evades your Deeds and Explosives, and is a relevant and evasive clock. Plus if you switch to just three colours you can make room for 1x Volrath's Stronghold.

Though I'm still wary to drop StP. Black's spot removal is either 2cc or mediocre (Innocent Blood is a no-no in this list, and Ghastly Demise is not as reliable as in Black Threshold). Meh, off to testing.

[Tacosnape]

Shriekmaw comes to mind too. Can't kill Tombstalker, similarly evades your Deeds and Explosives, and is a relevant and evasive clock. Plus if you switch to just three colours you can make room for 1x Volrath's Stronghold.

Though I'm still wary to drop StP. Black's spot removal is either 2cc or mediocre (Innocent Blood is a no-no in this list, and Ghastly Demise is not as reliable as in Black Threshold). Meh, off to testing.

I wasn't actually intending to recommend dropping white so much as I was recommending adding Mage to the board (Over Duress, which sucks.) The list is fine at 4C with Wasteland over Monestary due to the addition of more kill conditions. But Mage is so incredibly awesome in white-packing builds.

[blac198990]

First of all, and actually pretty important, is anyone else having problems getting planeswalkers into their deck on MWS if they don't have creatures in the list? Mine is only working because I have a copy of the 1996 world champion, or whatever, in the deck.



Sorry about my quoting skills - I deleted most of your post when I was cutting out the list, but I honestly don't care enough to go back and patch it in.

How are those two Bayous treating you? On a car ride back from TMLO:III or some other, similarly distant event (NOVA, now that I think about it), we (EPIC crew) threw together a UBg list we called Landfill because it wasn't really Landstill-y enough, and it included a couple copies of LFTL, from which we apparrently gleaned the suffix -fill. In any event, Counterspell was wicked hard to cast, but all of the creature kill (and Tarmogoyfs, born of Scott Scheywer's LS list at the event) was easy as... something easy. Your mom, maybe. End result: I'm not sure that non-blue duals are right, unless they're Scrublands or Savannahs, and you're plainscycling for them.

Now, my standard "I'm not drunk, no matter what Matt says, but I still have some animosity towards your list - not you" disclaimer is in effect:

Two stifle. Okay, I'm down with that. But, when the careful observer draws his eyes farther down the list, he discovers two copies of Trickbind. Now, I must ask you - what the hell is up with that? Why not make it 4 Stifle? Is the "Danger of Cool Things" un-counterability of Trickbind cool enough to make it turn two you make belcher lose? TES is always fluctuating between 4, 6, and 8 chants main, so I can't really use them as an example, but what about SI? Don't they win turn one somethetimes? That's Stifle territory, my bromide. Broseph. Brother. Just wondering.

Also, what would a dedicated control (i.e. "My life total is my only concern until turn 100") deck want with Thoughtsieze? Did I spell that right? I always mess up the "i" and the "e." Anyway, I honestly can't see what you'd want to have Thoughtsieze against that Duress wouldn't do better. Against Goblins you are not boarding that shit in. Breakfast should be pretty good already, what with 4 Stifle-effects, 4 Extirpate, 4 Deed and 2 EE. What do you want them for? The Enchantress match? I'd drop that shit like a trig class.

Also, and this is a completely honest thing, I think you need some anti-Magus of the Moon tech. 1 Island and a sideboard of hope and prayers don't cut it, in my book (that is actually gramatically correct, since it's a plurar subject). I'd like to see a basic Swamp (which is fetchable), Hydroblasts (which are more potent 1-shot answers against red), and/or... a third option. Ah! Slaughter pact! Thank you, Zulander!

actually for the first part about the bayou's, those are in there because first, I havnt decided to add more fetch, wasteland, or new duel lands, and I didnt have the new duels to do it at this time.

the reason I went with trickbind, is because no one in my area plays with SI right now, but a couple of tes and belcher which plays red elemental blasts. which trickbind laughs at.

the one reason I went with thoughtseize, is because I feel that it would help in the mirror, and it also helps with combo, and I choose thoughtseize instead of duress because some combo decks play swarm, which is a pain sometimes. specially if I take out my creature hate for combo hate.

I dont have a single magus deck in my area and I have only played against it once, and the deck wasnt a problem.

I was going to red-text the shit out of this post. But in the spirit of the day, Merry Christmas, etc. - Bardo

[Tao]

Dragon Stompy has a ~50/50 chance for a turn 1 Moon and much higher on turn 2. So 4 Blue Blast seem needed to give you an answer for a turn 1 Moon on the play and a turn 2 Moon on the draw.

[Illissius]

If Dragon Stompy needs a Tomb/City, a Mox/SSG, and a Moon to get it turn one, and runs eight total of each, then the odds are actually 28%*. That's not counting the cases where they get multiple Moxen/SSGs without a Tomb or City (or draw first). So not 50%, but not bad at all.

* Ask Google: ((60 choose 7 - 52 choose 7)/60 choose 7)**3

[Nihil Credo]

Not really relevant for 4c, but it may be for other variants: do you know what makes Dragon Stompy cry like a baby? Old school Circle of Protection: Red. Modern DS lists have cut Razormane Masticore, and I've never seen Pithing Needle or Anarchy in their SB; the only damage source they have left is face-down Gathan Raiders, which get nicely taken out by EE@0 even through a Blood Moon.

[Tacosnape]

Not really relevant for 4c, but it may be for other variants: do you know what makes Dragon Stompy cry like a baby? Old school Circle of Protection: Red. Modern DS lists have cut Razormane Masticore, and I've never seen Pithing Needle or Anarchy in their SB; the only damage source they have left is face-down Gathan Raiders, which get nicely taken out by EE@0 even through a Blood Moon.

Anyone who isn't running 4 Pithing Needles in Dragon Stompy is asking for trouble. Quad Needles are in D-Stompy's sideboard and should be. This makes COP: Red a questionable idea, especially since you don't need COP: Red to stop them. All you have to do is stop Blood Moon.

This isn't as terribly impossible as everyone seems to think, either. I'm 2-2 in matches against Dragon Stompy with Landstill and only 3-2 piloting Dragon Stompy against Landstill, and that's with my 4C version that doesn't pack a single basic land. Blue Elemental Blast helps in stopping Blood Moons, and Engineered Explosives for 0 helps get rid of Chalices that might try to stop it. Additionally, Magus is easily dealt with by floating the removal mana.

I doubt it's worth the slot just for Dragon Stompy in any case. It would be decently useful if already in the sideboard for things like Burn, however.

[blac198990]

since no one has posted in a couple of days, why don't I start things off by talking about sideboard.
my side board I use right now is:
Sideboard:
4 meddling mage
4 extirpate
3 krosan grip
2 trickbind
2 blue elemental blast

Meddling mage is in here for mainly combo, but sometimes it has come in handy against 42 land.

extirpate is my graveyard hate, just because I use goyf to, so trying to stop others is what smother and stp are for, this card is in here for decks like 42 lands(because they cant keep up after losing loam), narco bridge, and breakfast.

krosan grip is mainly for things like pithing needle, the enchantment magus, counterbalance, and all of stax deck.

trickbind, is in here for 2 matchups only, 1 of them is against gus. before I get flamed again for playing trickbind, he plays TES right now and he does play REB in sideboard, which makes stifle not good enough right now. I will move to stifle once he finishes SI. and also because it is another stifle against 42 land.
And the last slot is just there for the many red aggro decks in my meta.


my meta consists of usually 2-3 combo 1-2 42land 4-5 aggro decks(either RWG or RWGB) sometimes goblins, and a couple gro/threshold decks. there is every once and a while, a person who plays stax or breakfast.

now that I have posted, someone pls keep this going by commenting about this or to put up their own sideboard.

[Shriekmaw]

Sideboard:
4 meddling mage
4 extirpate
3 krosan grip
2 trickbind
2 blue elemental blast




I believe the sideboard is dependent on what colors and optional cards that you play in your landstill list.

I would like to see the extirpates cut down to 3, trickbind replaced by stifles, and keep the rest the same. Is meddling mage that badly needed against combo?

Stifle is very good against combo because in that matchup I would not fear REB or Pryoblast, I would fear either Orim's Chant or Abeyance a lot more.

I usually just board in my 2 blue blasts from the board and it enough most of the time. You do have Standstill, Force, Brainstorm, Counterspell in the deck already against combo. Thats a pretty good wall that they have to go through.

If I was really worried about combo, I would just play the top/counterbalance combo to completely shut them down, its only another 3 cards in the board which helps against a lot of different matchups.

[blac198990]

I believe the sideboard is dependent on what colors and optional cards that you play in your landstill list.

I would like to see the extirpates cut down to 3, trickbind replaced by stifles, and keep the rest the same. Is meddling mage that badly needed against combo?

Stifle is very good against combo because in that matchup I would not fear REB or Pryoblast, I would fear either Orim's Chant or Abeyance a lot more.

I usually just board in my 2 blue blasts from the board and it enough most of the time. You do have Standstill, Force, Brainstorm, Counterspell in the deck already against combo. Thats a pretty good wall that they have to go through.

If I was really worried about combo, I would just play the top/counterbalance combo to completely shut them down, its only another 3 cards in the board which helps against a lot of different match ups.


as I said before, extirpate is my only graveyard hate, soo thats not going down no matter what anyone says.

and yes combo is not as great of a match up because you have 4 colors, and it isn't the old landstill where you can play a land and say go, you play alot of spells on your turn. also have you tried the counterbalancetop for a sideboard for landstill??? its not that great, I tried it for about 3 weeks and would have rather had many other things to side in instead of it. I already explained about the stifle, and I have played against enough TES that trickbind is the better choice for me, I have never not liked trickbind in the spot of stifle. but that is my experience, if u want stifle, that is your choice. also the other reason I choose it is because If you have 1 counterspell, you lose against combo, if you have 2, its usually loss. and about 50% of the time a counterspell will stop the chant, and then the stifle gets countered. trickbind means instant stop.

the BEB is only in there aggro decks.


why dont you post your list?

[kicks_422]

Will this find its way into Landstill? Or are Factories and Monastery/Goyf enough?

Mutavault
Land
Tap: Add 1 to your mana pool.
1: Mutavault becomes a 2/2 creature with all creature types until end of turn. It's still a land.
Some changelings born at Velis Vel never return, but their essence never leaves.
Rare.
illus: Fred Fields

[galeng]

Does spell snare fit in landstill? I'm only asking because i havent seen it in any builds and it would seem to dominate.

How about vindicate for removal or flash of insight for draw? Wierd that this stuff is never mentioned.

[Tacosnape]

Will this find its way into Landstill? Or are Factories and Monastery/Goyf enough?

Mutavault
Land
Tap: Add 1 to your mana pool.
1: Mutavault becomes a 2/2 creature with all creature types until end of turn. It's still a land.
Some changelings born at Velis Vel never return, but their essence never leaves.
Rare.
illus: Fred Fields

If that's real, that will seriously make me consider cutting either green or white, as it's a pretty viable second manland in place of Monestary. However, Factory/Monestary/Garruk (Garruk >> Tarmogoyf) is proving to be pretty effective thus far.


Does spell snare fit in landstill? I'm only asking because i havent seen it in any builds and it would seem to dominate.

How about vindicate for removal or flash of insight for draw? Wierd that this stuff is never mentioned.

I run two Snares in my 4-color build. Against some matchups, especially combo, Threshold, and Survival, it's fantastic. Against others, it's mediocre.

Vindicate, I feel, is an underrated option that I would run were I running only UBW. (Also, what the hell is up with Vindicates starting to sell for $14-15 on Ebay? I remember when they were like $8.)

Flash of Insight, however, I question fairly hard. You can't flash it back for a lot, and you wouldn't get much more dig out of using it twice than you would out of simply playing the cheaper and more efficient Fact or Fiction.

[kicks_422]

Just a question... Why aren't Wastelands run anymore in the UWBG builds? Is it because of too many colorless lands? I've always thought that Landstill had the Crucible + Wasteland lock... Now I don't even see Landstill running either one of those cards.


If that's real, that will seriously make me consider cutting either green or white, as it's a pretty viable second manland in place of Monestary. However, Factory/Monestary/Garruk (Garruk >> Tarmogoyf) is proving to be pretty effective thus far.

Is it worth cutting white, then? I knew I saw a UBG list by Bardo here somewhere and thought that 8 Mishra's Factories would have made it better. I think they heard me.

EDIT: Found it, post 788. Mutavaults could fit in nicely over the singleton lands. And probably Tombstalkers over Goyfs, just so it could dodge Deeds and Explosives.

[blac198990]

that land in my opinion is just too weak. it is only worth it if you have have factories to pump it up since it cant pump itself up. right now garruk looks like the new tech for landstill, as taco said, its just nutz. unless it could pump itself or have something like first strike or flying, a regular 2/2 is not better than the creatures that i'm using right now.

right now i'm testing using the combination of:
4 tarmogoyf
4 mishra's factory
2 garruk


this is in my 4c build, and if I like these creatures, I might move to the 3c build, taking out white, replacing swords with smother and completly remove monestary and maybe replace with wasteland

[galeng]

The generally accepted mana base for 4c landstill seems to be this most of the time...

4 Fetches, 3 of each dual (9 total), 1 Island, 4 factories, 3 monateries, and 3 wastelands. 24 lands total. (This is also seen in the 4c primer)

If this is familiar or you agree with this mana base, what is the reasoning for just 4 fetches and not the whole 8 by cutting duals? If you cut 1 of each dual you could add 3 fetches giving you 9 sources of each colour instead of 7.

I'd like to run 26 land total (i also run crucible). What do you suggest.

[Berzerked]

The generally accepted mana base for 4c landstill seems to be this most of the time...

4 Fetches, 3 of each dual (9 total), 1 Island, 4 factories, 3 monateries, and 3 wastelands. 24 lands total. (This is also seen in the 4c primer)

If this is familiar or you agree with this mana base, what is the reasoning for just 4 fetches and not the whole 8 by cutting duals? If you cut 1 of each dual you could add 3 fetches giving you 9 sources of each colour instead of 7.

I'd like to run 26 land total (i also run crucible). What do you suggest.

I don't suggest that mana base at all. 10 colorless producing lands in the 4C build is going to lose you games that you should have won all the time. It is generally accepted that any 3C build can support up to 7 colorless lands, and the 4C builds less than that (I personally run 6). Also, most people do play more than 4 fetches, usually 6. Here's my base:

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
1 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Nantuko Monestary

That's 25 lands. If you want one less, I'd drop a dual of your least used color. Add a Monestary/Island/Plains if you want one more. Also, Landstill is moving away from the Crucible/Waste trend, as it is rather slow, Wasteland doesn't do enough without Crucible (except essentially make you miss a land drop if you use it at the wrong time), and doesn't drastically affect enough decks to make it worthwhile.

[galeng]

Firstly heres the mana base I've been using for testing:

4 Mishra's Factory
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
3 Nantuko Monatery
3 Wasteland
3 Island
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
26 Total

It works pretty well but I was just wondering why people generally prefer duals to fetches. Even your build has more duals than fetches. What advantage do the duals have over a fetch?

[galeng]

Sorry one more thing. I noticed no wasteland in your build.

Do you just scoop to rishadan port, etc? If not, what's your plan?

[Arsenal]

Firstly heres the mana base I've been using for testing:

4 Mishra's Factory
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
3 Nantuko Monatery
3 Wasteland
3 Island
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
26 Total

It works pretty well but I was just wondering why people generally prefer duals to fetches. Even your build has more duals than fetches. What advantage do the duals have over a fetch?

I play Crucible 4c Landstill, but with -3 Wasteland, +2 Polluted Delta, +1 Flooded Strand. 7 colorless producing lands is about the max I'm willing to go with 4c Landstill, and would rather have more fetches to smooth out my mana early game than the cutesy Crucible + Wasteland that doesn't really get going until you've established control (ie. late game when you've already won).

[Bovinious]

It works pretty well but I was just wondering why people generally prefer duals to fetches. Even your build has more duals than fetches. What advantage do the duals have over a fetch?

People dont, but you seem to. You just advocated running 4 Fetches, ive never even played Landstill but wouldnt play it with less than like 7 fetches...3 islands is bad and isnt 26 land above the standard as well? Also like others said Wasteland seem very underwhelming.

[galeng]

Just quickly came up with this alternative...

4 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland
2 Nantuko Monastery
1 Island
26 Total

17 Blue Sources
10 Green
10 White
10 Black

What do you think?

Bovinious, I see your logic of 7 fetches, it would make sense. 26 lands works the best for me from what I've tested. 25 is the standard which is fine and I wouldn't go 24 if wasteland and deadguy is big in your meta.

Arsenal, I'm also gonna agree with 7 fetches. Wasteland is mainly for avoiding having to just scoop to port, not really doing broken crap with crucible, although that's an option.

Don't know why I'm seeing 4 fetches consistently in the primers but 7 just makes sense, or even 8 if you want.

[Arsenal]

But Port is only played in one deck primarily (Goblins). I'd rather exclude Wasteland and have a more unfavorable matchup versus Goblins than include it and potentially hurt myself against the rest of the field. Risk/Reward with Wasteland, I'm willing to gamble that I won't need it that often.

7 fetches seems right to me. 4 is too few with so much colorless lands. And Crucible + Fetch helps in smoothing out mid game if necessary.

[Black-Op]

Just quickly came up with this alternative...

4 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland
2 Nantuko Monastery
1 Island
26 Total

17 Blue Sources
10 Green
10 White
10 Black

What do you think?

Bovinious, I see your logic of 7 fetches, it would make sense. 26 lands works the best for me from what I've tested. 25 is the standard which is fine and I wouldn't go 24 if wasteland and deadguy is big in your meta.

Arsenal, I'm also gonna agree with 7 fetches. Wasteland is mainly for avoiding having to just scoop to port, not really doing broken crap with crucible, although that's an option.

Don't know why I'm seeing 4 fetches consistently in the primers but 7 just makes sense, or even 8 if you want.

I've taken 4c landstill to some tourneys and from what I learned 4 Fetch is enough if your running 24 land. It's even bad to play more fetch, why?
Because this deck is al about getting your land drop every turn! Most games I lost were because of not being able to drop a land each turn. This deck has some of the best cards in the game, but those cards do need a lot of mana. Being able to play those cards as soon as possible is essential, it's your only hope to regain tempo lost in the early game. Also with this deck I always want to have 2*U open in my opponents turn, representing counterspell wether I have it or not. It's quite obvious that this plan also needs you to hit your land. If you run more fetch you will decrease your chances of making your land drops every turn, if you didn't get it yet: this is BAD!
If you want to run more then 24 land, adding one fetchland can be good, but running 7 is just asking for trouble.
As for wasteland, I do think it's needed. Getting rid of opposing man lands, tombs and what not is very good. Especially because wasteland is able to do this from under a standstill. It does need some skill to play with, often it's used too early in which case it's like a missed land drop that will have a slight chance of disrupting the opponent. But if played correctly this card will preform an excelent job in attacking an opponents resources.

Cheers and a happy 2008 from Holland!!

[Nihil Credo]

Galeng's mana base isn't insane, actually. I've been playing 4C Landstill sans Wasteland with 24 lands for a while. His probably just gets colour-screwed more often and mana-screwed less.

EDIT:
If you run more fetch you will decrease your chances of making your land drops every turn, if you didn't get it yet: this is BAD!

Simple math will show this amount is practically irrelevant.

[Arsenal]

I've taken 4c landstill to some tourneys and from what I learned 4 Fetch is enough if your running 24 land. It's even bad to play more fetch, why?
Because this deck is al about getting your land drop every turn! Most games I lost were because of not being able to drop a land each turn. This deck has some of the best cards in the game, but those cards do need a lot of mana. Being able to play those cards as soon as possible is essential, it's your only hope to regain tempo lost in the early game. Also with this deck I always want to have 2*U open in my opponents turn, representing counterspell wether I have it or not. It's quite obvious that this plan also needs you to hit your land. If you run more fetch you will decrease your chances of making your land drops every turn, if you didn't get it yet: this is BAD!
If you want to run more then 24 land, adding one fetchland can be good, but running 7 is just asking for trouble.
As for wasteland, I do think it's needed. Getting rid of opposing man lands, tombs and what not is very good. Especially because wasteland is able to do this from under a standstill. It does need some skill to play with, often it's used too early in which case it's like a missed land drop that will have a slight chance of disrupting the opponent. But if played correctly this card will preform an excelent job in attacking an opponents resources.

Cheers and a happy 2008 from Holland!!

Although I agree that getting a land drop every turn = good, I do not see how smoothing out your early game mana w/ fetches = bad. Fetches count as a land drop, so whether it's a fetch -> dual, or just a dual, it's still good for you. Fetches simply let you grab a specific mana at a specific time (crucial in the early game), dodge opposing Wastelands until you're absolutely ready to use your dual, thins your deck out (this has been challenged, but I think it's true that fetch = thin), and gives you additional shuffle effects for Brainstorm.

[galeng]

But Port is only played in one deck primarily (Goblins). I'd rather exclude Wasteland and have a more unfavorable matchup versus Goblins than include it and potentially hurt myself against the rest of the field. Risk/Reward with Wasteland, I'm willing to gamble that I won't need it that often.

7 fetches seems right to me. 4 is too few with so much colorless lands. And Crucible + Fetch helps in smoothing out mid game if necessary.

Much more than goblins.
Try 43 lands, deadguy ale, stompy variants, etc.

1. Wasteland is also good vs any deck with non-basics (95% of the meta).
2. We all know that wasteland + crucible is ridiculous.
3. If it hurts your mana base, then you are not running enough lands.
4. With out it, you just scoop to those decks mentioned above, and thats a good 20% of the metagame, at least.

Gamble if you wish, but the truth is you will need it that often.

[Arsenal]

Skimming the Deadguy, Faerie & Dragon Stompy threads, I do not see Port being used at all. Playing against the aforementioned decks, I've never run into a Port. And even if I did, those lists using Port definitely are not indicative of a standard list you'd run across at a tourney.

If you think Port is used in 20% of the decks out there, you must play in a very strange meta. The only true tourney deck with Port is Goblins.

EDIT: 43lands + Goblins run 4x Port. I do not think this adds to more than 20% of the meta you suggest.

[blac198990]

well first i'll start off with my list that I'm using since my land is somewhat different because of the creatures I play.

land:
4 mishra's factory
4 tropical island
4 underground sea
3 tundra
3 polluted delta
3 flooded strand
2 wasteland

instant:
4 force of will
4 swords to plowshares
3 stifle
4 brainstorm
4 counterspell
2 fact or fiction
2 diabolic edict

enchantment:
4 standstill
4 pernicious deed

creature:
4 tarmogoyf

planeswalker:
2 garruk wildspeaker

sideboard:
undecided, changes every week.


In my build, I dont use monestary, because I use tarmogoyf and garruk instead, but I use 6 fetches and I also use 4/4/3 for duels. After switching to this, I have not had mana problems ever. But my build is a very aggro standstill build. monestary is overrated with tarmogoyf that can replace it.

one thing that I want to bring up is that, port uses 2 lands to use. now if you play landstill right, your gonna drop land the first 3-4 turns almost everytime. which means the only way they r gonna shut you down it to pull out 3 lands and 3 ports and still somehow get more mana to play their cards.

does anyone else realize this? they are mana screwing themselves everytime they mana screw you. the only deck you have to worry with this is 43 land because they can bring back wasteland to keep you low on mana. any good landstill player can play around port and wasteland.

the one thing I do want to try to add is explosives, because that card is very good.

[Arsenal]

Is 43land that prevalent that you'd have to re-config/be scared of it? Goblins is the only true deck that runs Port that I'm afraid of, and it's not Port that I'm afraid of, it's the Goblins themselves. If decks using Port are running rampany in your area, fine, Wasteland away. But, if your meta is somewhat balanced and is indicative of a broader spectrum of Legacy tourney decks, then you should hardly see Port... outside of Goblins.

Again, I'm willing to have a worse matchup against a couple decks, but potentially be stronger against the rest of the field.

Also, I'd love to see these Deadguy, Faerie Stompy, and Dragon Stompy decks that play 4x Port.

[galeng]

Arsenal, the conclusion for wasteland is:

Advantages: Better matchup versus everything and a way out of port lock.
Disadvantages: Nothing

All you need is around 15 blue sources and I have 17 while running wastelands, monasteries and factories.

It has no downsides.

[Nihil Credo]

Disadvantages: Nothing
You're kidding, right? Without Wasteland, you can comfortably run off ~24 lands and have room for 2-3 more business spells. That's hardly "nothing".

[Arsenal]

Arsenal, the conclusion for wasteland is:

Advantages: Better matchup versus everything and a way out of port lock.
Disadvantages: Nothing

All you need is around 15 blue sources and I have 17 while running wastelands, monasteries and factories.

It has no downsides.

I second what Nihil said, and I'm still waiting for your Angel/Faerie/Dragon Stompy lists running Port, your Deadguy lists running port... The fact is that Goblins is the only deck that you should be having a truly difficult time with, and I think that has less to do with Port and more to do with the other 56 cards they run. If 43lands is as prevelant as Goblins, perhaps I'd mention it too, but it's not. Not by a long shot. So to me, it's a non-factor. 20% or greater you say that I will need Wasteland? No.

[blac198990]

Is 43land that prevalent that you'd have to re-config/be scared of it? Goblins is the only true deck that runs Port that I'm afraid of, and it's not Port that I'm afraid of, it's the Goblins themselves. If decks using Port are running rampany in your area, fine, Wasteland away. But, if your meta is somewhat balanced and is indicative of a broader spectrum of Legacy tourney decks, then you should hardly see Port... outside of Goblins.

Again, I'm willing to have a worse matchup against a couple decks, but potentially be stronger against the rest of the field.

Also, I'd love to see these Deadguy, Faerie Stompy, and Dragon Stompy decks that play 4x Port.

not sure if your trying to flame me or if your just talking in general, but I never said that I had a problem with it. I said myself that port is not a problem, and I only like wasteland because it does help in alot of matchups(combo,red aggro decks,and in the mirror.) and in my experience, I have liked having wasteland, that spot in my deck has been many different things from wasteland to monestary to more duels and fetches.

Arsenal, can you give a list since your just bashing everyone who gives suggestions when you havnt given any tourny reports to atleast prove you have played the deck before.

right now my decklist has 6 colorless mana sources and 17 blue sources and a total of 10 ways to get black and green and 9 to get white.

after tons and tons of testing, I concluded that I needed to figure out a way to fix my mana base and I did, then I because I fixed my mana base, I was having a horrible early game and could not catch up. soo I added tarmogoyf, which solved my problems.

right now I think that everyone should try these 3 cards in their list(tarmogoyf, garruk, tombstalker) right now tarmogoyf has pretty much won me half of my matches and has put me over that hump into top 4 every week. ill give a tourny report tonight after I get back from the tourny.

oh and heres my garruk for all of you to see

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=190153&postcount=232

[Arsenal]

blac, that post you quoted was actually directed at galeng. In it, I make clear references to galeng's early posts about Deadguy, and the Stompy variants (Dragon, Faerie, Angel) and how he claims they run Port. However, the only two decks that do actually run Port is (1.) Goblins, and (2.) 43land. Goblins, although still dangerous, is on the overall decline. 43land barely sees play comparatively speaking.

Also, I will post my list when I get home; at work right now. Feel free to dissect and discuss when posted.

[Tacosnape]

In defense of Galeng before I completely annihilate all his absurd theories, at least he's playing Wasteland in the correct spot in a 4-color build: In place of business spells instead of part of the manabase.

That said, are you out of your mind?! Disadvantages, none? You're playing Wasteland in place of removals, counters, and draw. That's an incredible disadvantage right off the bat.

As for Rishadan Port, if you play in a scrubby metagame where people run Rishadan Port in any deck not named Vial Goblins or 43 Land (And in my personal opinion it struggles to hold on to its slots in either of those decks), then run a guy who gets around Rishadan Port. In my metagame I have to deal with a bizarre Rock/PT Junk hybrid that for some unfathomable reason is running Port over basics (And then bitches about mana screw and losing to Blood Moon, go figure), so I started running Garruk Wildspeaker, who eats Port-locks for breakfast.

Secondly, if you have Port trouble, just beat your opponent to death with Meddling Mages in games 2 and 3. Or play the game until you have more than 4 Manlands on the board. You have recursion and more manlands than they do Ports.

If you want to keep a good bit of mana open, for reference, here's the most mana-efficient way to swing through a Port wall. Assume, for this example, your opponent has 4 Rishadan Ports, and you have 4 Mishra's Factories and a Nantuko Monestary.

You: Enter Combat, activate Monestary before Declare Attackers step.
Opponent: Tap the Monestary.
You: In response, tap it for colorless and activate a Factory.
Opponent: Tap the Factory.
You: In response, tap it to activate another Factory.
Opponent: Tap the Factory.
You: Same shit.
Opponent: Tap the Factory.
You: Activate the last one, swing for 2.

[Arsenal]

Please note, I see a fair amount of Fish-esque decks, random aggro/Zoo, a sprinkling of Thresh, a couple Landstill, and one MUC once in a while. Overall, I'd say roughly 60% Fish-esque/Zoo-ish/aggro/random junk, 40% everything else.

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Smother
4 Pernicious Deed

4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
3 Fact or Fiction
2 Disenchant (thinking these should now be Krosan Grip to help combat CounterTop)

2 Crucible of Worlds

4 Mishra Factory
3 Nantuko Monastery
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Stranded
4 Underground Sea
4 Tundra
3 Tropical Island

SB:

4 Meddling Mage
4 Engineered Plague
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Duress (thinking these would be good as Stifle instead)

As you can see, since my meta is primarily aggro, with random junk you can't anticipate, I dedicate more creature removal slots in my deck than most (4 more spells). This has been working out for me in surviving the initial onslaught of creatures until I can get enough land drops/draw spells to stabilize. I still maindeck Disenchant as I've found this never to be truly dead, even in the aggro matchup where I come across my fair share of targets (equipment, vial, needle).

As you can tell, my 4x Smother slot is the interchangeable spot where Stifle/Duress used to be maindecked, but I found that they weren't doing enough for me in my meta. Smother has been nice as it hits virtually every relevant creature in Legacy (Goyf, Lackey, Dreadnaught, Hippy, Meddling Mage, Confidant, Dryad, Werebear, etc).

My SB is traditional, and I love Engineered Plague so much. Not even for the Goblin matchup, but for random ass junk like Elf decks, various Tribal decks I've come across (Zombies, etc). My meta is rather weak in overall Legacy representation, but the few "true" Legacy I do play, they're mostly Fish-esque, and built quite well. This build has been working for me in a aggro-slanted meta.

[Nihil Credo]

Are you sufficiently confident that you'll never face graveyard decks, or even just recursion engines (Genesis, etc.?). I'd be nervous as hell to walk into a tournament of more than fifteen people without some Extirpates in the SB, but of course if your bet on their absence pays off, the rewards are excellent (3-4 extra SB slots).

As an aside, my upcoming CaNGD submission would love your metagame so much :P

[Arsenal]

Meh, the 3 Duress could really be anything; Stifle, Extirpate, whatever. If I see a surge of GY based decks, I'll consider it.

[mossivo1986]

Please note, I see a fair amount of Fish-esque decks, random aggro/Zoo, a sprinkling of Thresh, a couple Landstill, and one MUC once in a while. Overall, I'd say roughly 60% Fish-esque/Zoo-ish/aggro/random junk, 40% everything else.

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Smother
4 Pernicious Deed

4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
3 Fact or Fiction
2 Disenchant (thinking these should now be Krosan Grip to help combat CounterTop)

2 Crucible of Worlds

4 Mishra Factory
3 Nantuko Monastery
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Stranded
4 Underground Sea
4 Tundra
3 Tropical Island

SB:

4 Meddling Mage
4 Engineered Plague
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Duress (thinking these would be good as Stifle instead)

As you can see, since my meta is primarily aggro, with random junk you can't anticipate, I dedicate more creature removal slots in my deck than most (4 more spells). This has been working out for me in surviving the initial onslaught of creatures until I can get enough land drops/draw spells to stabilize. I still maindeck Disenchant as I've found this never to be truly dead, even in the aggro matchup where I come across my fair share of targets (equipment, vial, needle).

As you can tell, my 4x Smother slot is the interchangeable spot where Stifle/Duress used to be maindecked, but I found that they weren't doing enough for me in my meta. Smother has been nice as it hits virtually every relevant creature in Legacy (Goyf, Lackey, Dreadnaught, Hippy, Meddling Mage, Confidant, Dryad, Werebear, etc).

My SB is traditional, and I love Engineered Plague so much. Not even for the Goblin matchup, but for random ass junk like Elf decks, various Tribal decks I've come across (Zombies, etc). My meta is rather weak in overall Legacy representation, but the few "true" Legacy I do play, they're mostly Fish-esque, and built quite well. This build has been working for me in a aggro-slanted meta.

It appears to me that your going for the much more sound version of landstill. One thats very consistent if it gets any kind of time it uses it well. I feel though that you do have some dead cards and to me a LS deck without explosives is only half a ls deck. Even with deed I still think all ls decks need to run it. It often wins matchups and mixed with crucible it will randomly keep you beating your opponents creatures down and attacking them for 2 with factorys. Which is an EXCELLENT way to win with LS.

Personally I don't like splashing that heavily for black but if it works it works.


I really like these new builds with garruck. They make me happy inside even though garruck is double green.

[Ch@os]

Personally I don't like splashing that heavily for black but if it works it works.

I really like these new builds with garruck. They make me happy inside even though garruck is double green.

Doesnt double green sucks against Decks like, Sui, Black Control âla pox or some Stifle/Wasteland builds? I think so.

And Deed blocks yourself so many inceredible options, for example U/W-Controls-Countertop-Engine. Also Deed is to easy to hate with Needle or Stifle.

[Lemuria]

And Deed blocks yourself so many inceredible options, for example U/W-Controls-Countertop-Engine. Also Deed is to easy to hate with Needle or Stifle.

Is that enough reason to not play Deed anymore? Anyway, some builds are running a single copy of Crime/Punishment to avoid Needle and Stifle, wich I think it's pretty smart.

[galeng]

I think the problem is that people are seeing wasteland as a stone rain, and not a land.

Land: Produces mana
Stone Rain: Doesn't produce mana

Why should wasteland be under the "business" category? It just another land that can also prevent you from scooping to various matchups. If the downside is that it produces colourless mana and that screws up your mana, then I'll say it again: You're not running enough land.

@ Nihil
Without an answer to port, maze of ith, etc, how can you comfortably run off anything. Also 24 land is dangerously low. Good luck against any land destruction.

[Bryant Cook]

Has anyone tried Garruk in a Landstill deck that isn't crazy? He seems incredibly good in the older 4c BHWC list, well because he's insane with a 4/4 first striking land. This is just an idea. The more man lands the better Garruk becomes, not to mention he fixes color requirements (WW for Wrath is an example).

[galeng]

Has anyone tried Garruk in a Landstill deck that isn't crazy? He seems incredibly good in the older 4c BHWC list, well because he's insane with a 4/4 first striking land. This is just an idea. The more man lands the better Garruk becomes, not to mention he fixes color requirements (WW for Wrath is an example).

It is ridiculous if you can find a slot. Wizards has broken the game (mainly in standard) by introducing planeswalkers. You can see this by how garruk interacts with pernicious deed and the fact that it can't be spot removed (yet, hopefully). It's first ability is the only one you should use really and it works really well with man lands. Lol @ the possibility of a 7/7 factory worker.

[Tacosnape]

Has anyone tried Garruk in a Landstill deck that isn't crazy? He seems incredibly good in the older 4c BHWC list, well because he's insane with a 4/4 first striking land. This is just an idea. The more man lands the better Garruk becomes, not to mention he fixes color requirements (WW for Wrath is an example).

Yes. My list runs a 1/1 Garruk split between maindeck and sideboard. I'd post it, but I'm still testing him in different replacement slots at the moment.



@ Nihil
Without an answer to port, maze of ith, etc, how can you comfortably run off anything. Also 24 land is dangerously low. Good luck against any land destruction.

It's worth noting that Garruk is an answer to these. And using the first two abilities in conjunction >> using just the first one.

[blac198990]

wow, I missed alot of talk in 12 hours. first ill start off with mossivo. A couple of players are running with explosives, I myself like explosives in landstill, but where do you put it? it is worth taking out some kill for more removal? take out instant removal for more mass removal? or take out draw or counter??? the reason many people have not used it, is because there is not a slot for it and deed is way better.

next is chaos.... the first thing you should realize is that wasteland is not as prominant as is used to be because goblins in not the number one deck any more. there are alot more 3-4 color decks out there that dont have room(threshold, landstill, red aggro decks, combo) I feel that legacy has gotten big enough and since goblins abused wasteland soo much, many people have just learned how to play around it.

for the part about deed. there is still the little thing called a counterspell. only 2 decks usually main deck stifle, standstill and some threshold decks. and for pithing needle, it happens, your deck is still filled with many other things to use, plus how do you know hes going to choose deed. theres many things to choose from factory or monestary. if you make those 2 a threat early on, they r more willing to pithing needle those to save themselves.

lemuria if you actually play landstill then u suck at it. anyone who has played deed knows that it is still the best mass removal. you play blue for a reason.

galang. i agree with you on the wasteland part. if you like it but your gettin mana screwed add more land... but I dont agree what you said to nihil. I run 23-24 land in my deck and I never have any problems with not enough land. I only had one match where I had that problem last night at my tourny and everyone has one bad hand, thats why theres mullugan.

wastedlife... look up further and look at my list I posted. it has 2 in my deck, and if planeswalker didnt have legendary effect I would prob add more. the card is very good. the card is being tested by taco and me, and I have piloted it to very good results. and if you look at a couple of tacos last posts, he talks very highly of garruk.

and of course taco, your right about garruk, its nuts. as long as you have the four man to cast it, it instantly can become a 3/3 creature or 2 more mana. it actually won me 3 games last night that I would have surely lost. you should see a stax players face when i deed everything away and he laughs because he thought I just lost my advantage with garruk. then he called a judge (not really a judge because he didnt finish his testing, but he knows what hes doin)over because he thought deed removed garruk, then we resumed with me laughing at him as I won the game.

[galeng]

It's worth noting that Garruk is an answer to these. And using the first two abilities in conjunction >> using just the first one.

It isn't. Once you enter the attack phase, your opponent activates port, tapping your factory. You cannot use sorcery speed spells or abilities in the attack phase and therefore can't untap it to attack. You are still locked.

[blac198990]

It isn't. Once you enter the attack phase, your opponent activates port, tapping your factory. You cannot use sorcery speed spells or abilities in the attack phase and therefore can't untap it to attack. You are still locked.

actually you didnt interpret his post right. he didn't mean he could untap his lands to attack with them. he ment it more that he can play tokens which can then attack and if he has ith, you just drop another token. he was commenting more towards the fact u said the first ability is the only use for it. that is why you are wrong. the second ability is used just as much or even more in my opinion.

[mossivo1986]

wow, I missed alot of talk in 12 hours. first ill start off with mossivo. A couple of players are running with explosives, I myself like explosives in landstill, but where do you put it? it is worth taking out some kill for more removal? take out instant removal for more mass removal? or take out draw or counter??? the reason many people have not used it, is because there is not a slot for it and deed is way better.


Hello Blac! Nice to see that my rants are listened to lol.


To answer your question it all depends on the build of your landstill. I think as most people are moving towards deed and extripate we should look at the 4c LS model.

Before I go into any detail I do need to give credit to Wasteland as I tested landstill for close to 7 months before I found a list I was truly happy with. His list to me is perfect on most accounts. It's consistant, throws some real zing into the opponents gameplan. But generally its just fun to play and kicks alot of a.. That said the only difference between his list and the version I am running is I took out monastary and added Academy ruins. I just find ruins wins random games so easily based on recuring a crucible or EE that can break the game. Truly Ruins to me is an autoinclude with the combination of double crucible/ double EE. Monastary just seems kind of win less with T-Goyf and other things on the tables. I would like to note that I tested various builds especially on these forums and themanadrain.com - which sucks. Anyways I would like to also shout out to Tacosnape. His work on LS has been incredibly helpfull, and just generally more consistant than most others.

Anyways on with the explanation.

Draw:

4 brainstorm
4 standstill
2: open slot

Counter:
4 counterspell
4 Force of will
2: Open slot

Removal:
3-4 Pernicious deed
4 Swords to Plow
2-4: Open slot.

Lands:
Pretty sure 24 is the correct number for these types of builds, especially with the inclusion of eternal dragon.

Creatures:
1 Eternal Dragon

Win conditions:
2 Decree of Justice.

sb:
4 meddling mage
4 blue elemental blast
4 extirpate
3 Engineered Explosives


So without varying to much from typical builds I splashed alittle more towards white for consistency reasons. Mostly because I play a very similar version and it has been incredible for me outside of decks purely hating on LS.

The first thing we notice are the open slots in the drawing bracket. There are two of them and they usually consist of Fact or fiction. I believe this is a mistake for the curve but it's my own opinion and i'd rather not bring it up other then to just kind of hint at it. There are many different answers that people use and I really like Wastelands small cunning wish package. Which gives you answers in small doses and keeps games that can quickly run you out of the room, still sitting.

Moving on you will notice a basic outline of counters. Now the first 8 slots are just generally in 99% of LS builds so i'm just sticking with it. The other 2 slots usually differ between decks, some choosing to go with stifles/spell snare/ force spike combination. In the 4c versions of ls these slots are alittle more hardpressed and in my meta spell snare deffinately works better, but generally I would go with stifle. You might notice that the 2 and 3 c LS versions have more of a combination of the 2 cards sometimes spliting them 3-3 taking up a whopping six slots, but thats only because they give up alot of room in the removal section.


Removal to me is what seperates the versions of landstill. This is probobly the most important part of any deck and is why I have stretched the ranting into such detail. Of all the versions of landstill out there I find that the four colors seem to have the best advantage in that they have the most avalible to them "duh." Usually I find my decks wanting to run a bare minimum of 9 removal spells alot of it being mass removal because that tends to get you the most bang for your buck. In wastelands build he runs 3 deed 2 humility 2 explosives 4 swords, which may seem like overkill but alot of the times humility itself just wins games. Especially if you can get ahold of a wish and get pulse of the fields. It tends to happen frequently enough that I treasure every chance I get it online. The other side is that this combination allows for you to stop things like counter top back to basics and other shenanigans that normally end other build of ls because of a lack of the appropriate answers. As an example if your opponent casts a counterbalance you have a couple of different options. You can go with the wish for the disenchant effect out of sb or a fact or fiction to attempt to gain card advantage. You can try to deed it all away and maybe get alittle lucky against their counter top. You can engineered explosives it away similarly to the way you get rid of challice by adding the same colored or colorless mana to it and make it's casting cost higher then their disruption can handle. Or you can academy ruins it back if it gets countered. Or you can just counter it. Or you can fight through it which is viable because of the answers you hold. Often times its more difficult to fight through a counter top lock, which is why blowing it up or countering it is probobly the better option of the two. But you can fight through the soft lock and it's not as difficult as it may appear. The same goes for blood moon effects, back to basics, and other forms of disruption. Wasteland does kind of hoze you if your opponent can get it online, but I find that often times four color has enough avalible options to take care of these problems. In short Engineered explosives is an excellent add to the deck regardless of the situation as it strips the opponent of said creatures enchantments or artifacts, and it can recur which makes it uber powerfull if your in the attacking with mishra's factory phase of your landstill game.

Overall there are enough slots in LS to make it a very interchangable deck, but adding effects like disenchant or more spot removal I find to be not necessary. Even heavy splashing for black to me seems a bit risky as duress really isn't uber powerfull "worth splashing for, or thoughtseize for that matter." I guess the same would go for monastary. All these cards just seem, well meh compared to the answers you already have.

-mossivo1986
Joel Ferris

Edit: I didn't include the wishboard for wastelands list. I just made basic 4c still sb.

Edit: Tacosnape I do understand your argument for Life from the loam, but in testing i've never had the problems you had with crucible especially when i'm using academy ruins. I do agree with your theory but I do believe crucible must run in wastelands/ my version.

// Lands
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [UNH] Plains
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [B] Tundra
2 [B] Underground Sea
2 [B] Tropical Island
1 [B] Scrubland
1 [B] Savannah
1 [UNH] Island
1 [TE] Wasteland
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins

// Creatures
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
4 [IA] Brainstorm
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
4 [IA] Counterspell
2 [TE] Humility
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [OD] Standstill
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
2 [DIS] Spell Snare

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [IN] Dismantling Blow
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [IN] Fact or Fiction
SB: 1 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague

[Lemuria]

lemuria if you actually play landstill then u suck at it. anyone who has played deed knows that it is still the best mass removal. you play blue for a reason.


I don't think you read my post properly.....

I said they run a single copy of Crime/Punishment to avoid needle and stifle, in case they need another option of mass removal. I know that Deed is the best mass removal and I never said not to play, did I? On the contrary, I said that needles and counters WAS NOT reason enough to stop playing it. Learn how to read before you go flaming around!!

[galeng]

actually you didnt interpret his post right. he didn't mean he could untap his lands to attack with them. he ment it more that he can play tokens which can then attack and if he has ith, you just drop another token. he was commenting more towards the fact u said the first ability is the only use for it. that is why you are wrong. the second ability is used just as much or even more in my opinion.

Oh. A really strange answer, but it could work. I prefer wasteland myself.

[blac198990]

first to start off lemuria, your post had a question like you were confused. I'm sorry I can't see your face and tell that your joking around. next time be more clear on what you say.

now to mossivo, I like the post, those are more of the posts we need. I agree with you whole heardily on the explosives, I have played with the card many times and have never wished I didnt have it.

here is my list:
draw:
4 standstill
4 brainstorm
2 fact or fiction

removal:
4 pernicious deed
4 swords to plowshares
2 diabolic edict
counter:
4 force of will
4 counterspell
3 stifle

land:
4 underground sea
4 tropical island
3 tundra
3 flooded strand
3 polluted delta
4 mishra's factory
2 wastelands/nantuko monestary(still testing both to see which one I like better

creatures:
4 tarmogoyf

win conditions:
2 garruk wildspeaker


as you already pointed out the ls decks all have the 4 main cards force, brainstorm, standstill,counterspell. now you took your list towards the white side to get decree and dragon, my list is towards green, as i took out 2 of your removal spots and one land(which was a monestary to put in tarmogoyf and garruk) in which I have tested decks like yours and my personality as a person loves the little bit more aggro decks, but I love blue soo much I just decided to make landstill an control aggro deck. my deck actually wins very quickly, and since I have played this deck I have only run out of time for rounds once( which is signifigently lower) I feel that my list has put landstill to a different step to making landstill the top tier deck. I have used this list in 4 tournys now and all four I have split for first(only because it is usually about 2 in the morning when finals start and most of us want to play EDH by then so we just split.) at my shop, my deck is feared just as much as threshold.

now if anyone out there reading this post is more of a strong control person, go with mossivo's list, which is a very control build, but if any of your are more like me and like to be aggro, try mine, it does very well.

oh and mossivo, right now I'm testing taking out the 2 edicts and puting in explosives, the testing has been very good to me soo far.

[blac198990]

Oh. A really strange answer, but it could work. I prefer wasteland myself.

the funny things is, I have actually won a match with only a gurruk in play because of stax and wasteland lock, I had to untap their land to do it but I did and won the match.

[AnduYn]

A lot of you guys seem to like Garruk even though he is kind of hard to cast.

I have been playing Landstill for some years now, and I always loved Humility as a 4cc bomb wich is almost as hard to cast as Garruk.

Garruk has 2 bid advantages over Humility:

1. It is harder to remove.
2. It provides a kill condition, which makes it possible to drop nantuko monasterys and maybe the whole white splash.

But if you are sure that you will stick to the 4 colour version AND play nantuko monasterys you have to ask yourself in what kind of matchups you really want to have a Garruk in play over a Humility.

My meta is full of Thresh,Fish,Deadguy Ale,Goblins,Cephalid Breakfast and a few survival decks and this is where Humility shines most and these are the matchups where I would always want to drop a Humility instead of a Garruk.

Garruk is definetely better in the mirrow and a bit better against all sorts of combo decks, because he provides a faster kill, but if you reach turn 4 you should be able to win this game anyway.

Please test Humility before you throw it out of the window, even if you have to drop the Tarmogoyf Plan you will have a card that generates such an insane card advantage. It's always fun to see a single Mishra's factory holding off a whole army of 1/1 Tarmogoyfs and Darkconfidants:wink: .

@ Tacosnape you once suggested to play a single Quagnoth in the SB to have a real bomb in the mirrow, would you think that a single Garruk would be better?

[galeng]

A lot of you guys seem to like Garruk even though he is kind of hard to cast.


Almost forgot. Yeah this is a big problem, especially under wasteland attack.

[blac198990]

A lot of you guys seem to like Garruk even though he is kind of hard to cast.

I have been playing Landstill for some years now, and I always loved Humility as a 4cc bomb wich is almost as hard to cast as Garruk.

Garruk has 2 bid advantages over Humility:

1. It is harder to remove.
2. It provides a kill condition, which makes it possible to drop nantuko monasterys and maybe the whole white splash.

But if you are sure that you will stick to the 4 colour version AND play nantuko monasterys you have to ask yourself in what kind of matchups you really want to have a Garruk in play over a Humility.

My meta is full of Thresh,Fish,Deadguy Ale,Goblins,Cephalid Breakfast and a few survival decks and this is where Humility shines most and these are the matchups where I would always want to drop a Humility instead of a Garruk.

Garruk is definetely better in the mirrow and a bit better against all sorts of combo decks, because he provides a faster kill, but if you reach turn 4 you should be able to win this game anyway.

Please test Humility before you throw it out of the window, even if you have to drop the Tarmogoyf Plan you will have a card that generates such an insane card advantage. It's always fun to see a single Mishra's factory holding off a whole army of 1/1 Tarmogoyfs and Darkconfidants:wink: .

@ Tacosnape you once suggested to play a single Quagnoth in the SB to have a real bomb in the mirrow, would you think that a single Garruk would be better?

the one thing about humility that I dont like is the fact that teh games take way way way way to long, not the fact that the cards slows the game, but because every 2 turns the judge is pulled over for rulling, and since the opponant is gonna want a judges ruling over yours, it becomes a pain in the ass, plus if your at a local tourny without a judge, who do you go by for a call when half the world thinks one way but the other thinks different. the card is to annoying to explain. and the easiest way to explain it is to tell them to shut up and dont play the card. now that I got that out of the way, the first reason I dont like humility is for the fact that it does cost 2 white. to move to this I would have to take out garruk and goyf for it to work, which takes me back to running old style factory and monestary. old style wasnt enough to win games to make it in my local meta. not with soo many threshold, red aggro, and combo. humility in my opinion is just to counterproductive to what many decks run, such as deed, why run deed if they creatures arnt big? why run removal just to waste on a 1/1 when I would rather have a kill. garruk, usually costs only 2 cuz of first ability and it gives me creatures bigger than many creatures in teh meta. also there are many rogue white decks out there that will have an answer to it, and destroy your strategy, and many decks that have black and green with deed.


garruk = win game
2 tarmogoyfs = usually win game
humility = stalls game untill they have more creatures than you and overrun. stalling doesnt win games, just ties.

This post is a shining example of the kind of thing to avoid in the DTB forum. Please find and use a shift key, and run your post through a spell check before you post it. If you want your opinions taken seriously, present them like you wear big boy pants. Verbal warning. Fix it. ~ Nightmare

[Tacosnape]

actually you didnt interpret his post right. he didn't mean he could untap his lands to attack with them. he ment it more that he can play tokens which can then attack and if he has ith, you just drop another token. he was commenting more towards the fact u said the first ability is the only use for it. that is why you are wrong. the second ability is used just as much or even more in my opinion.

Blac is correct. Mazes and Ports are solved by making countless hordes of Trained Armodons.

Finding a balance between Garruk's two abilities is crucial, and knowing when to play one versus the other is a huge key to success.


@ Tacosnape you once suggested to play a single Quagnoth in the SB to have a real bomb in the mirrow, would you think that a single Garruk would be better?

Yes. Garruk >> Quagnoth. I found after awhile that, due to the fact that I (wisely) keep my Fact or Fiction count in the deck high, that I rarely lose to control decks except when they manage to get rid of my kill conditions, usually via Extirpate or Haunting Echoes. As decks that use these cards generally rely on Deed, STP, Vindicate, and Discard, I found Quagnoth to be pretty strong. However, Deed killed it sometimes, and Edicts ate it for breakfast. Garruk Wildspeaker was a fair tradeoff, being immune to Deed, STP, and Edict, despite being vulnerable to Vindicate and Discard. However, as Garruk's at his worst in my opening hand and his best when I find him via a topdeck or a Fact or Fiction, the discard became a very minor issue.

[BreathWeapon]

A lot of you guys seem to like Garruk even though he is kind of hard to cast.

I have been playing Landstill for some years now, and I always loved Humility as a 4cc bomb wich is almost as hard to cast as Garruk.

Garruk has 2 bid advantages over Humility:

1. It is harder to remove.
2. It provides a kill condition, which makes it possible to drop nantuko monasterys and maybe the whole white splash.

But if you are sure that you will stick to the 4 colour version AND play nantuko monasterys you have to ask yourself in what kind of matchups you really want to have a Garruk in play over a Humility.

My meta is full of Thresh,Fish,Deadguy Ale,Goblins,Cephalid Breakfast and a few survival decks and this is where Humility shines most and these are the matchups where I would always want to drop a Humility instead of a Garruk.

Garruk is definetely better in the mirrow and a bit better against all sorts of combo decks, because he provides a faster kill, but if you reach turn 4 you should be able to win this game anyway.

Please test Humility before you throw it out of the window, even if you have to drop the Tarmogoyf Plan you will have a card that generates such an insane card advantage. It's always fun to see a single Mishra's factory holding off a whole army of 1/1 Tarmogoyfs and Darkconfidants:wink: .

@ Tacosnape you once suggested to play a single Quagnoth in the SB to have a real bomb in the mirrow, would you think that a single Garruk would be better?

You can't draw a comparison between the cards, Garruk can untap two lands as soon as it's cast, so it's a bomb that doesn't turn off your counter wall. If you're playing UBG, Garruk is easier to cast than Humility thanks to Treetop Village. I'm not certain what the reasoning is for 4c Landstill at the moment, Swords is replaceable and Monastery is overrated, I've lost a lot of games to Wasteland for no tangible benefits.

Garruk is an insane card, and I think he's going to be a defining card in the archetype. Humility is a good card, but post board it has Krosan Grip written all over it.

[Tacosnape]

You can't draw a comparison between the cards, Garruk can untap two lands as soon as it's cast, so it's a bomb that doesn't turn off your counter wall. If you're playing UBG, Garruk is easier to cast than Humility thanks to Treetop Village. I'm not certain what the reasoning is for 4c Landstill at the moment, Swords is replaceable and Monastery is overrated, I've lost a lot of games to Wasteland for no tangible benefits.

Swords is replacable only by inferior cards. The same can be said for Meddling Mage in sideboard. And Monestary's pretty solid.

However, I do agree that UBG is the strongest non-4C choice right now, thanks in large part to Garruk Wildspeaker.

[BreathWeapon]

Swords is replacable only by inferior cards. The same can be said for Meddling Mage in sideboard. And Monestary's pretty solid.

However, I do agree that UBG is the strongest non-4C choice right now, thanks in large part to Garruk Wildspeaker.

I don't think non Swords to Plowshares removal is inferior, at least not completely inferior, Innocent Blood deals with 'Goose where Swords to Plowshares doesn't for instance.

I'm not a fan of Meddling Mage, you can replace him with Null Rod or Chalice of the Void as an anti combo card and improve bad match ups like Affinity or Burn at the same time.

You also get Wasteland back, which makes Stifle so much better.

[diffy]

More food for thought:

What about a singleton Tolaria West (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/173.html) in the non-4c builds?
It can easily replace one of the 2 Wastelands as I've always found them near to useless wihtout Crucible of Worlds (and you can transmute for a Wasteland if need be in the lategame or with a CoW on the table).
Now, what are the advantages of playing it over a Wasteland?
It's a blue mana source
It fetches Engineered Explosives
It fetches Academy Ruins if you already have an Explosives (its just that strong) or in the mirror to recur Crucible of Worlds
In really odd situations it can also fetch a Mishra's Factory or help you out of a colorscrew
I'm aware that transmuting for 3 mana is quite expensive but as a midgame card I find this to be very strong.

Here's the list I'm playing it in:



//// UWb Cunning Landstill

/// Mainboard (60 cards)

// Lands
4 Flooded Strand (http://magiccards.info/on/en/316.html)
2 Polluted Delta (http://magiccards.info/on/en/321.html)
4 Tundra (http://magiccards.info/be/en/300.html)
2 Underground Sea (http://magiccards.info/be/en/301.html)
1 Scrubland (http://magiccards.info/be/en/294.html)
2 Plains (http://magiccards.info/apac1/en/4.html)
2 Island (http://magiccards.info/apac3/en/2.html)
1 Tolaria West (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/173.html)
1 Academy Ruins (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/269.html)
1 Wasteland (http://magiccards.info/tp/en/340.html)
4 Mishra's Factory (http://magiccards.info/aq/en/67.html)

// Creatures
1 Eternal Dragon (http://magiccards.info/sc/en/12.html)

// Spells
4 Brainstorm (http://magiccards.info/mm/en/61.html)
4 Standstill (http://magiccards.info/od/en/102.html)
3 Cunning Wish (http://magiccards.info/ju/en/37.html)
4 Counterspell (http://magiccards.info/be/en/55.html)
4 Force of Will (http://magiccards.info/ai/en/42.html)
4 Swords to Plowshares (http://magiccards.info/ia/en/278.html)
3 Wrath of God (http://magiccards.info/po/en/202.html)
2 Humility (http://magiccards.info/tp/en/236.html)
3 Engineered Explosives (http://magiccards.info/5dn/en/118.html)
2 Decree of Justice (http://magiccards.info/sc/en/8.html)
2 Crucible of Worlds (http://magiccards.info/5dn/en/114.html)

/// Sideboard (15 cards)
4 Meddling Mage (http://magiccards.info/ps/en/116.html)
4 Engineered Plague (http://magiccards.info/ul/en/51.html)
4 Extirpate (http://magiccards.info/pc/en/71.html)
1 Slaughter Pact (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/78.html)
1 Pulse of the Fields (http://magiccards.info/ds/en/11.html)
1 Return to Dust (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/39.html)


Keep in mind that going overboard with a toolbox (Maze of Ith (http://magiccards.info/dk/en/114.html), The Tabernacle at Pendrel Vale (http://magiccards.info/lg/en/252.html) etc.) would dilute the deck too much as you really need your land-drops to produce mana.

Comments? Ideas?

Edit: Tolaria West would also be pretty sexy in a 3color build playing green... the synergy with Life from the Loam is just too great in the mid- lategame.

[Nihil Credo]

I don't like this. If I'm not playing 4c, then making colourless mana is far, far less of a drawback than coming into play tapped. I often use all of my mana up to turn 4 or so.

[Tacosnape]

Tolaria West seems meh.

If you're going to play lands that come into play tapped, play Treetop Village. Ironically, while I used to hate Treetop Village, I think it's now the best choice for a second non-dual/fetch land in UBG Landstill, due to its ability to cast Garruk Wildspeaker if your Tropical Islands get Extirpated.

[Bardo]

Tolaria West seems meh.

If you're going to play lands that come into play tapped, play Treetop Village. Ironically, while I used to hate Treetop Village, I think it's now the best choice for a second non-dual/fetch land in UBG Landstill, due to its ability to cast Garruk Wildspeaker if your Tropical Islands get Extirpated.

Regarding Tolaria West, I hate to agree, but I do. I love that card and if transmute was instant speed than it would probably be worth it; otherwise Treetop Village is a fine replacement for Monastery in the U/B/g versions.

This is what I've been playing in the past week:

Vorosh Control
by Bardo

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
2 Fact or Fiction

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Chalice of the Void

4 Pernicious Deed
2 Vedalken Shackles
2 Crucible of Worlds

4 Tarmogoyf
2 Garruk Wildspeaker

4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Faerie Conclave
1 Treetop Village
1 Academy Ruins

Sideboard
4 Engineered Plague
3 Smother
3 Duress
3 Extirpate
1 Mindslaver
1 Engineered Explosives

I realize that Chalice + Deed = :/ in the abstract, but it's only a problem on paper and works well when you actually play them together. Given the amount of non-CIPT lands, the 1/1 Village/Conclave rarely is a problem on the lands, and you have Garruk's trick besides, though that hasn't come up often.

I can't tell if the Vorosh deck is better than 4c, they're really close, power-wise:

Witch-Maw Landstill

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Fact or Fiction

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Crime // Punishment [flex slot]

4 Tarmogoyf

4 Mishra's Factory
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Tundra
2 Nantuko Monastery
1 Island

Sideboard
4 Engineered Plague
4 Meddling Mage
4 Hydroblast
3 Extirpate

Taco - Your earlier 4c sideboard is awesome.

Anyway, these are the two decks I've been playing for the past couple of weeks.

These decks have come a long way from the U/r and U/w/r Landstill decks from three years ago. :)

[galeng]

What about a singleton Tolaria West (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/173.html) in the non-4c builds?


Early game it plain sucks (we can agree on that). Late game I'd really rather get some good draw instead seeing as I'd probably get what I need plus some card advantage. Landstill doesn't need a tutor that only goes for lands at sorcery speed.

Also I realized why you seem lean toward tutors when I noticed no fact or fictions in your build. My eyes are still burning.

[kicks_422]

Bardo, if you already run Goyfs, isn't running 2 Monasteries as well kind of too much? And what do you think about Tombstalker over Goyf? It at least dodges your own Deeds, and is just a bit more synergistic with the deck - though I can't argue about the sheer power of Goyf by itself.

[blac198990]

Bardo, if you already run Goyfs, isn't running 2 Monasteries as well kind of too much? And what do you think about Tombstalker over Goyf? It at least dodges your own Deeds, and is just a bit more synergistic with the deck - though I can't argue about the sheer power of Goyf by itself.

The reason that many people don't play with tombstalker is the fact that, hes only a 5/5 when goyf can be bigger, goyf always costs 2 mana when tombstalker can cost any where from 2-8. I have found that tombstalker is played once maybe twice in a deck, then you run out of cards to remove. Also, if you play tombstalker, you might as well take out any idea of loam or crucible, and nantuko monastery is just way out of the question with tombstalker. I have won many games because I dropped a goyf second turn and then went crazy dropping standstill and such, going on to win the game because of it. It is impossible to play tombstalker on turn 2 and for that matter its really hard to play him at all because of the 2 black, if you change your deck to make black the main color, it could be an option, but right now, blue and green have way more options, black is mainly for deed and side.


As galeng puts it, early game is plain sucks.


also about the monestaries, If I was him, I would prob add 1 more, without garruk, you need a couple more kill conditions.

[kabal]

Bardo, if you already run Goyfs, isn't running 2 Monasteries as well kind of too much?

No it is not needed. Based on the current Meta, makes much more sense to run a LD package instead. Below is a build I would recommend.

// Lands
2 Island
3 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland

// Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf

// Enchantments
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Standstill

// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares

// Artifacts
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Engineered Explosives

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Engineered Plague
SB: 3 Extirpate
SB: 4 Meddling Mage
SB: 2 Spell Snare


And what do you think about Tombstalker over Goyf? It at least dodges your own Deeds, and is just a bit more synergistic with the deck

I haven't try it myself, but seems interesting. Not only does it dodge Deed, but also CB. Here (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=12444) is a build that did play Tombstalker and came in 2nd place in a 100+ person tournament from about 2 weeks.

[blac198990]

No it is not needed. Based on the current Meta, makes much more sense to run a LD package instead. Below is a build I would recommend.

// Lands
2 Island
3 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland

// Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf

// Enchantments
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Standstill

// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares

// Artifacts
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Engineered Explosives

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Engineered Plague
SB: 3 Extirpate
SB: 4 Meddling Mage
SB: 2 Spell Snare

i've got a quick question about your list, since you just popped up out of no where, what would happen if someone extirpates your goyfs????? do you think you could win that game? your deck doesn't have enough kills in it to win, and whats with the akward out of place 2 islands? if your worried about wasteland that much, drop your wastelands and put more duels and fetches in, straight blue is worthless for your deck, you have no way of winning with only blue.

the rule of thumb for me and many other people I have talked to about landstill, is that your deck needs 3 different kill conditions, if its factory, monestary, and a third in side if need be, I have always felt that having 3 gives you a chance to keep people from extirpating, or maging away your win.

[galeng]

I really don't see why people like goyf in landstill. It's really random and unsynergetic. Also, Garruk is solid, but a little overrated I think.

[kicks_422]

The reason that many people don't play with tombstalker is the fact that, hes only a 5/5 when goyf can be bigger, goyf always costs 2 mana when tombstalker can cost any where from 2-8. I have found that tombstalker is played once maybe twice in a deck, then you run out of cards to remove. Also, if you play tombstalker, you might as well take out any idea of loam or crucible, and nantuko monastery is just way out of the question with tombstalker. I have won many games because I dropped a goyf second turn and then went crazy dropping standstill and such, going on to win the game because of it. It is impossible to play tombstalker on turn 2 and for that matter its really hard to play him at all because of the 2 black, if you change your deck to make black the main color, it could be an option, but right now, blue and green have way more options, black is mainly for deed and side.

A. Stalker actually helps make Goyfs smaller
B. Why would you take out lands with Stalker's delve?
C. Of course you'd take out Monasteries.
D. Landstill's supposed to go the long game anyway, that's the strength of the deck.
D1. Of course you'll never play Stalker turn 2.
D2. Sure, you can win with Goyf like that. But if you can do that to the deck you're facing, then you can win that game even without Goyfs.
E. With 4 of each dual and up to 6 fetches, BB isn't a problem.

[kabal]

Nothing good there...



what would happen if someone extirpates your goyfs?????


What if someone Extirpated your Nantuko Monastery? :wink:

[kicks_422]

Looks like a new Radley in the making here.

I'm going to keep cool here just because I don't feel like getting red text on my posts.

Yes, I have tried Goyf. And yes, I have tried Tombstalker. Frankly, I feel like im just playing old-school Fish when I play Goyf Turn 2 then Standstill and counter everything else. Tombstalker, on the other hand, takes the deck to a more controllish route than Goyfs do, which is kind of the identity of the deck. Going aggro-control with an early Goyf is risky because you only have 8 spells (FoW and Counterspell) to protect him, and your primary answer (Deed) most often wipes Goyf away too. But hey, since your so keen on running them, go ahead. It's not like I'm twisting your arm or anything.

I'll just let everyone else answer the comments that you made to them.

[Tacosnape]

What's the point of running Tarmogoyf if we're running Garruk, exactly? Garruk does most of what you want Tarmogoyf to do without being vulnerable to creature removal or Deed, meaning you can still leave their removal dead and yours optimal.

[Joon]

This is my UGB Landstill on that I'm tinkering for a while:

// Lands
1 [7E] Island (3)
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [B] Tropical Island
4 [U] Underground Sea
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)

// Creatures
2 [FUT] Tombstalker

// Spells
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [B] Counterspell
4 [SC] Stifle
3 [IN] Fact or Fiction
2 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
2 [LOR] Garruk Wildspeaker

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [5E] Blue Elemental Blast / Hydroblast
SB: 4 [DIS] Crime/Punishment
SB: 4 [US] Duress

23 lands is enough, especially with Garruk and Crucible. What I'm not sure about yet is, if I should play 5 Fetches and 2 Basic Islands or 6 Fetches and 1 Basic Island. At the moment I'm testing the last version as I guess, that it would be kinda hard to reach Stalker's double black castingcost and Garruk's double green.
I'd like to see one more Stalker in there - maybe 3 Stifle or 3 Explosives is enough? The Sideboard is at the moment...let's say...unusual. Crime/Punishment is basically like Explosives, but the lack of white makes it not strong enough for MB imho, but against green Decks C/P is boarded against Explosives because it dodges Krosan Grip. Duress is against Combo, Extirpate against recurring stuff like LftL or other cards that suck.
Well, and BEB is against red decks as Burn or Goblins are sometimes played in our local store.
Right now I'm thinking about cutting one Wasteland for the second basic Island - normally 3 Wastelands should be enough...?

Feedback would be nice :smile:

[Nihil Credo]

Unless you see absolutely zero aggro, I wouldn't rely on just EE for spot removal. With C/P in the board, moreover, it's absolutely overkill. As for the third Tombstalker, I don't think it's really needed with Garruk as another win condition.

I would make room for some Innocent Blood and/or Shriekmaw. And Plagues in the board, too: really, I can't see the point of C/P. Well, I can see it, it just seems a waste of four SB slots just to dodge Krosan Grip.

[Joon]

Unless you see absolutely zero aggro, I wouldn't rely on just EE for spot removal.

Hm, right. Shriekmaws would be nice.


Well, I can see it, it just seems a waste of four SB slots just to dodge Krosan Grip.

That's right - as I wrote before, I didn't know what to put in there. But Plagues could be decent (few Goblins, and a few Elves!.decs that scoop to Plague or Deed)...

Shriekmaws as an additional Wincondition and Removal seems really good to me. But what would you cut? One Explosives, ok. One Stifle, ok. And then? This leads me to the following list:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
2 [7E] Island (3)
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [B] Tropical Island
4 [U] Underground Sea
3 [TE] Wasteland
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)

// Creatures
2 [FUT] Tombstalker
4 [LOR] Shriekmaw

// Spells
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [B] Counterspell
3 [IN] Fact or Fiction
2 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
2 [LOR] Garruk Wildspeaker

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 4 [US] Duress
SB: 4 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [SC] Stifle

I packed Stifle to the Side (the only thing to cut I could think of) to maindeck a full Playset of Shriekmaws. I guess, three would've been enough, too but two Garruks and two Crucibles seems enough to me. I could add the 4rd Wasteland again, but I don't think that's necessary. By the way: Has anybody thought about Smother in Landstill? Looks like a vaible removal to me.

[Nihil Credo]

Cut some of those EE! Seriously, you don't need four with Deed already in the deck. EE is good because it's versatile and it handles hordes of tokens (Zombies, Soldiers, Goblins), but they're pretty underwhelming as creature removal, which is what you'll use them for 75% of the time.

By contrast, Stifle is pretty awesome against Goblins and pairs up *very* well with your Wasteland assault (Waste duals, Stifle fetches).

Not to mention you can (and likely should) run Academy Ruins to recycle the Explosives, and more importantly Crucible of Worlds.

[diffy]

Regarding Tolaria West:



Early game it plain sucks (we can agree on that).



Making colourless mana is far, far less of a drawback than coming into play tapped.


Not really as it is a blue mana source rather than a colorless one (Wasteland) and so increases your color stability (eg. alowing you to fetch a Scrubland instead of another Tundra if you already have a blue mana source on the table) and makes your fetching decisions easier. I agree that it sucks in the mid-game when it is your only 4th land for Wrath of God though.



Late game I'd really rather get some good draw instead seeing as I'd probably get what I need plus some card advantage.


Card Advantage in a land slot? Card Afvantage that gets you one-offs?
The advantage of Tolaria West is that its versatile. Early on its a land drop that makes blue mana (an advantage not to underestimate) and in the mid-lategame it gets you removal/winconditions/lock.



Landstill doesn't need a tutor that only goes for lands at sorcery speed.


It also fetches Engineered Explosives. Also, it doesn't only go for lands but for the win... if you fetch a Wasteland with a Crucible on the table, it's awesome. If you fetch an Academy Ruins with Engineered Explosives in the yard or in your hand, you're likely to win etc.



Also I realized why you seem lean toward tutors when I noticed no fact or fictions in your build. My eyes are still burning.


Fact or Fiction just plain and simply sucks in my opinon. I played it for quite some time because I had your attitude and thought that it was an auto-include and stuff but then in the German Champs all it did was to pitch into Force.
Fact is painfully slow, even moreso against Daze/mana denial and it will never make more than 1 card advantage if you're looking for a solution and your opponent isn't completely dumb.
Also, if you play carefully, you'll never need the weakish Card Advantage created by Fact as the UWb list has way more ways to create CA than your average other list. For lategame CA I've always felt that Brainstorm is enough if acompanied by the entire other deck (Humility, WoG, EE, CWish).



If you're going to play lands that come into play tapped, play Treetop Village.


I don't agree here. I think that manlands formidably suck until the very lategame as I'd never attack and risk a land drop if your opponent has removal. At least Tolaria West allows you to clear the board (selectively) on turn 4.



Tolaria West seems meh.


I don't know... at first sight it looks pretty cool/good to me, but I don't have any data to back it up. I'll let you know when I do though.


Regarding other stuff:



// 3c Landstill


I have several problems with your list:
23 lands seems royally low with so many top heavy spells (FoF, Garruk)
I echo the sentiment that you don't need a full playset of Engineered Explosives as you already have Deed for board sweepings. I'd rather add in more cheap targeted removal.
4 Shriekmaw seems excessive as they are pretty bad removal overall: sorcery speed and unable to get rid of a Dark Confidant.
I don't think you need Tombstalker with Garruk in the deck as additional wincondition as it's nothing but a beater (no utility) and slowish.


You could try something along the lines of:
-2 Tombstalker
-1 Shriekmaw
-1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Land (Bayou? If you add Bayou, make sure to cut a Flooded Strand for another Polluted Delta)
+2 Ghastly Demise/Innocent Blood

I also don't like Wasteland in builds without Stifle, hell, I don't like Wasteland at all in Landstill... here's why:
It sucks with your color requirements making you more vulnerable to land destruction
Its near to useless without any way to recurr it as the random land destruction effect will nearly never screw your opponent because mana bases are more stable than in the Goblin-era.
You make "more" tempo by developing your manabase than by destroying your opponents as you are the guy with the expensive spells


This is why I'd replace one of the Wastelands with one Academy Ruins as it adds a lot of utility to your deck letting you recurr your Engineered Explosives (very strong play) and being savage in the mirror because of letting you win the fight over Crucible of Worlds.



Has anybody thought about Smother in Landstill? Looks like a vaible removal to me.


It okay but I personally don't like 2 mana pin-point removal and prefer Ghastly Demise/Innocent Blood over it.
If you're looking for a bit more expensive removal spells you could also try Vedalken Shackles as a 1 or 2 of.




4c Landstill

You could maybe also look into Wastelands 4c build (http://www.mercadia.de/home/page.php?site=magic/deck2/deck&id=59386) which is pretty strong and techy.
I'd only aply these changes to above list (which is a little outdated):

-1 Nantuko Monastery
-3 Stifle
+1 Academy Ruins
+1 Pernicious Deed
+1 Crucible of Worlds
+1 Crime/Punishment

[Joon]

After testing a bit (if wrecking random people on MWS counts -.-) I figured out the following list:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [B] Tropical Island
4 [U] Underground Sea
3 [TE] Wasteland
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
2 [7E] Island (4)

// Spells
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [B] Counterspell
3 [IN] Fact or Fiction
2 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
2 [LOR] Garruk Wildspeaker
4 [SC] Stifle
3 [OD] Innocent Blood

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 4 [US] Duress
SB: 3 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague

My impressions:

Academy Ruins is godlike! I could punch myself for not recognising the power of recycled Crucibles and Explosives.
Garruk is a house! In addition to that, he operates well under Standstill. With him, no other Finisher (except Factorys ;)) are needed. I thought adding the third Garruk to the Maindeck but two are usually enough (as he lives on even after Deed etc.).
Fact or Fiction = teh nutz. It searches counterspells, finisher or draws 3 cards for one. Incredibly good in here.
I weren't able to test the Sideboard much as most of my opponents disconnected after Game 1 :rolleyes:
I'm going to test it on some Onlinetournaments and post then my opinion about the Sideboard. Thanks for the help.
Feel free to critize the list, but it works well at the moment. :tongue:

[spirit of the wretch]

However, I do agree that UBG is the strongest non-4C choice right now, thanks in large part to Garruk Wildspeaker.

That's what I've been preaching for the last 2 or 3 months and nobody would listen to me *whine*
Anyway, I took this deck to the novermber tourney in Speyer and piloted it to a misserable 3/3/0.
I didn't run any Stifles (which really sucked against Solidarity) and played 2 Jace in the Fact-slot. I still think they are better than Fact.
I also ran 3 Damnations to clear the board and protect my planeswalkers, but it's probably better to just run big walls, like ... some Lhurgoyfs for example.

[galeng]

Not really as it is a blue mana source rather than a colorless one (Wasteland) and so increases your color stability

Ever heard of an island? Seriously.


Card Advantage in a land slot? Card Afvantage that gets you one-offs? The advantage of Tolaria West is that its versatile. Early on its a land drop that makes blue mana (an advantage not to underestimate) and in the mid-lategame it gets you
removal/winconditions/lock.


I thought tolaria west was for the draw/tutor slot, not "crappy island" slot.
It's versitile, but both sides of it suck balls. Tapping out on the main phase for an EE or some random land isn't fun.



It also fetches Engineered Explosives. Also, it doesn't only go for lands but for the win... if you fetch a Wasteland with a Crucible on the table, it's awesome. If you fetch an Academy Ruins with Engineered Explosives in the yard or in your hand, you're likely to win etc.


I was aware. I was also aware. Ok sure. Who plays academy ruins when the mana base is landstill's biggest fault. Engineered Explosives shouldn't be played, or at least not main deck when you already have 4 deeds.



Fact or Fiction just plain and simply sucks in my opinon. I played it for quite some time because I had your attitude and thought that it was an auto-include and stuff but then in the German Champs all it did was to pitch into Force.


Fact runs the deck, and it's the reason you seem to need tolaria west in your build. Fact or Fiction is the best card advantage draw in the format other than standstill maybe. It's also a bomb at finding what you need and its an instant.



Fact is painfully slow, even moreso against Daze/mana denial and it will never make more than 1 card advantage if you're looking for a solution and your opponent isn't completely dumb.


Right, because landstill is an aggro deck. All you need to do is take the better pile, and assuming your opponent seperates perfectly, you get 1.5 average card advantage (2 or 3 cards) and at least one bomb.



For lategame CA I've always felt that Brainstorm is enough if acompanied by the entire other deck (Humility, WoG, EE, CWish).


Please realize that brainstorm is zero card advantage, and can never be greater than zero card advantage.

I don't see how you can jeopardize the mana base in return of a land that can either be a non basic island that comes into play tapped or a sorcery speed tutor for 3 that can only get lands.

[diffy]

Who plays academy ruins when the mana base is landstill's biggest fault. Engineered Explosives shouldn't be played, or at least not main deck when you already have 4 deeds.


Are you keeping in mind that I am talking about Tolaria West in my UWb Cunning Wish Landstill?
Also I severely disagree that Academy Ruins shouldn't be played in 4c Landstill. I'd always play it over a Wasteland for the reasons stated in my post above.



I thought tolaria west was for the draw/tutor slot, not "crappy island" slot.
It's versitile, but both sides of it suck balls. Tapping out on the main phase for an EE or some random land isn't fun.


It just sweeps the board next turn? I'm not one of the guys who always have a Counterspell online... also, I'd always take the risk of not being able to counter something when I can just clear the board next turn.



Fact runs the deck, and it's the reason you seem to need tolaria west in your build. Fact or Fiction is the best card advantage draw in the format other than standstill maybe. It's also a bomb at finding what you need and its an instant.



Right, because landstill is an aggro deck.


Including cards that are only good in the lategame (where, if reached, this deck will win) is a perfect example of winmore.

To adress your point: no, Landstill is no aggro deck but your opponent will either be:
Fast Aggro
Aggro Control
Combo
Control

In the first 3 matchups, FoF will be too slow. Sure its gold against control but thats not a large proportion of the metagame.
Against aggro, you play FoF in the endstep of turn 4 where you're likely to be low on life. It might get you a sweeper. Compare this to Tolaria West which could transmute for Explosives on turn3 and clear the board on turn4 so that basically you just saved yourself a full attack.
Against aggro-control, you can't play FoF before the endstep of turn5 (Daze) which is pretty slow. Tolaria West is gamebreaking here as it can fetch Academy Ruins for a softlock.
Against Combo, both are irrelevant but Tolaria West can be a solution to Empty the Warrens if your opponent had a really slow start. FoF only pithes into force here.
Against control, I agree that FoF will be superior most of the time but in the direct mirror, Tolaria West fetches Academy Ruins which will win the battle over Crucible of Worlds and therewith the game.



All you need to do is take the better pile, and assuming your opponent seperates perfectly, you get 1.5 average card advantage (2 or 3 cards) and at least one bomb.


If your opponent separates perfectly, you'll always have to take the 2 card pile so that your card advantage is only '+1'. The other card is likely to be useless (land).



Please realize that brainstorm is zero card advantage, and can never be greater than zero card advantage.


If you think like this, then you are playing Brainstorm incorectly... it digs for 3 cards deep and then puts 2 useless ones back creating virtual card advantage (or card quality if you want) while still nabing you a solution pretty consistently which then will create card advantage.



I don't see how you can jeopardize the mana base in return of a land that can either be a non basic island that comes into play tapped or a sorcery speed tutor for 3 that can only get lands.


What I did was to cut another land that jeopardizes the mana base: Wasteland.
The difference is that Tolaria West cip tapped but produces blue mana.

[galeng]

To adress your point: no, Landstill is no aggro deck but your opponent will either be:
Fast Aggro
Aggro Control
Combo
Control



Inability to perceive sarcasm ftl.



In the first 3 matchups, FoF will be too slow. Sure its gold against control but thats not a large proportion of the metagame.


Your meta game is strange. Thresh is big near me and FoF makes them cry. It's too much CA for them to handle.



Against aggro, you play FoF in the endstep of turn 4 where you're likely to be low on life. It might get you a sweeper. Compare this to Tolaria West which could transmute for Explosives on turn3 and clear the board on turn4 so that basically you just saved yourself a full attack.


Is aggro that big in your meta? And aggro as in goblins? FoF should go out for plague or something of the sort, and I don't even run plague (blasts are more versitile imo).



If your opponent separates perfectly, you'll always have to take the 2 card pile so that your card advantage is only '+1'. The other card is likely to be useless (land).

No offense, but the good player will pick the 3 card pile, because its better... if the 3 card pile sucks, then either the 2 card pile is 2 bombs or you got a crappy FoF (ex: land, land, land, land, brainstorm, :S)



If you think like this, then you are playing Brainstorm incorectly... it digs for 3 cards deep and then puts 2 useless ones back creating virtual card advantage (or card quality if you want) while still nabing you a solution pretty consistently which then will create card advantage.


That's card quality, not card advantage. They are two different things.

I'd suggest taking out the west for another EE since it's the only worthy tutor target you mention unless you're already running 24 land or less (I run 26 but 24 is the minimum).

[diffy]

Inability to perceive sarcasm ftl.


As mentioned right above that line, I think that FoF is only good in the late game and therefore winmore.



Your meta game is strange. Thresh is big near me and FoF makes them cry. It's too much CA for them to handle.


I don't have a meta as people switch decks for each event but that doesn't belong here.
***** is a factor around here too but I'd rather have an Engineered Explosives (or the friggin' lock with Academy Ruins) against them then having to wait until turn5 to get CA.



Is aggro that big in your meta? And aggro as in goblins? FoF should go out for plague or something of the sort, and I don't even run plague (blasts are more versitile imo).


I like Engineered Plague more because it can also come in against Cepahlid Breakfast and Ichorid.



That's card quality, not card advantage. They are two different things.


My point was that Brainstorm digs into something that creates Card Advantage nearly all the time (I did mention the word card quality too).



I'd suggest taking out the west for another EE since it's the only worthy tutor target you mention unless you're already running 24 land or less (I run 26 but 24 is the minimum).


I did post the build (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=194338&postcount=859) I'm playing and yes it has 24 lands.

[Tacosnape]

As mentioned right above that line, I think that FoF is only good in the late game and therefore winmore.

Not to back up Galeng or anything, but I sort of disagree with this to the extent that without significant draw, Landstill tends to lose its ability to win a long game against a lot of aggro or aggro-control decks that can gain real or virtual card advantage of their own through cards like Ringleader, Confidant, Counterbalance, or whatever the case may be.

[mossivo1986]

From Looking at all of your posts I find alot of things wrong with landstill builds as a whole. First let's begin with bad ideas.

Tarmogoyf:

It simply doesn't work. Yes it will win you random games where you draw them and your opponent doesn't, or you have multiples ect. ect.

The other way it works is against discard obv. So if you draw multiple t goyfs against discard it can usually win you games yes. Outside of these possibilities it doesn't TRULY work for the deck. I think it's kind of obvious.

Tombstalker:

The only way I see this working is if #1 your using 3c uwb or ugb still and if you are your probobly using it so that haunting echoes doesn't wreck you randomly. Otherwise it goes completely against your own synergy. Realisticly I see only thresh truly being able to play it.

Nantuko monastary:

Alot of people swear by this card, and I do admit you do win games more often then said tarmo win. But generally your just leaning even heavier on your graveyard to win you the game. Which I still don't like. I sac'd this dude early on in my playtesting in favor of Academy ruins for even more consistent removal.

Now let's get to the good stuff:

FACT OR FICTION:
Whoever says that FOF is not good in LS is crazy. I wholeheartedly believe it brings up the consistency of your deck to another level. I do not believe it has room in some of the more intensive lists out there like mine which require a lowered curve and some really distinct answers.

Like I stated before about this card. I think any version of 3c still can run multiple FOF or even a list like Tacosnape's which is very good.

Taco I've never mentioned this but the only thing I don't like about your list is that theres a real possibility of milling yourself to death. Life from the loam as a 2 of and FOF as a 3 of combined with Standstill could really really go overboard in theory. But I could be completely wrong and on the back of an experiance pilot like yourself i'm sure you rarely have these problems. But I tend to take the long game and often even with my list that I hacked from Wasteland and tuned a bit I often find myself getting into the late teens before I actually win the game. I forgot if you have ruins in your list or not, but I do have your list on mws so ill check that in a minute.

BTW Taco do you live in the states? I'm just curious to location I live in Michigan so I wondered if you ever go to any events around here.

As for garruck he's godlike as well.

[Nihil Credo]

Tombstalker:

The only way I see this working is if #1 your using 3c uwb or ugb still and if you are your probobly using it so that haunting echoes doesn't wreck you randomly. Otherwise it goes completely against your own synergy. Realisticly I see only thresh truly being able to play it.

As long as your sweepers are Deeds and Explosives, I completely disagree with this evaluation.

Tombstalker in Landstill works wonders, because it is hard to answer - unlike Goyf, which dies to all the CC-based hate in the format (Deed, EE, Counterbalance, Chalice, Smother, Threads, Spell Snare - many of which you run yourself. And I didn't mention Shriekmaw and Ghastly Demise). It is also evasive, which lets you just chump block with your Factories for a few turns while you kill them in 3-4 swings.

Combined with 4 Stifles and Wastelands, it provides a completely credible gameplan involving mana disruption and an early Tombstalker protected by countermagic (unlike Eternal Dragon, Tombstalker doesn't tap you out). If your opponent resolves some threats, no problem! You can wipe away the board and Tombstalker will still be there to resume the beats.

Tombstalker is very, very good.

[Nihil Credo]

Does Pox play countermagic and board sweepers?

I am confident Goyf doesn't belong in the deck because 1) I've tested it and 2) it offers you the opportunity to go aggro-control... at the price of being a wasted card if the plan doesn't pan out.

But if the plan doesn't pan out with Tombstalker, and you return to play traditional control, oh look! Here's your control-style finisher, already in play! There was no price.

[kicks_422]

Tombstalker in Landstill works wonders, because it is hard to answer - unlike Goyf, which dies to all the CC-based hate in the format (Deed, EE, Counterbalance, Chalice, Smother, Threads, Spell Snare - many of which you run yourself. And I didn't mention Shriekmaw and Ghastly Demise).

You can wipe away the board and Tombstalker will still be there to resume the beats.

Tombstalker is very, very good.

Thank you. I was waiting for someone to say that.


But if the plan doesn't pan out with Tombstalker, and you return to play traditional control, oh look! Here's your control-style finisher, already in play! There was no price.

And that too. I guess people just want to play Goyf in every damn deck that can produce green mana. Sure, it's the freaking best creature ever printed, but does it fit in a control shell? You WILL win games just because of dropping Goyf and protecting him, but like I said, if you can get away with a win while playing Goyf in Landstill, then you can get away without a win even without Goyf.

[Tacosnape]

Like I stated before about this card. I think any version of 3c still can run multiple FOF or even a list like Tacosnape's which is very good.

Taco I've never mentioned this but the only thing I don't like about your list is that theres a real possibility of milling yourself to death. Life from the loam as a 2 of and FOF as a 3 of combined with Standstill could really really go overboard in theory. But I could be completely wrong and on the back of an experiance pilot like yourself i'm sure you rarely have these problems. But I tend to take the long game and often even with my list that I hacked from Wasteland and tuned a bit I often find myself getting into the late teens before I actually win the game. I forgot if you have ruins in your list or not, but I do have your list on mws so ill check that in a minute.

BTW Taco do you live in the states? I'm just curious to location I live in Michigan so I wondered if you ever go to any events around here.

First of all, I wholeheartedly agree on most of the parts of your post I snipped about Goyf, T-Stalk, and Fact or Fiction. Stalker's better than Goyf, but I don't feel that either one belong.

As for milling myself, it's happened. I've had every deck I own get milled to death and I've milled people to death with Goblins of all things. But Landstill only mills itself to death in a control mirror and when I've lost the game anyway. Experience helps, and I can usually tell after a certain point how not to deck myself and what my path to victory is. More than once, especially against more sorcery-speed black control decks, I've cracked a series of my own Standstills in succession to kill an opponent at the last second (I did this once in a tournament after a 47 minute first game and won the match 1-0.)

Life from the Loam isn't as bad as it seems for Milling, as I rarely need to dredge it more than once in a game. Plus, I only run one Loam, not two. And while I'd like to go up to 4 Fact or Fictions, 3's about all I can feasibly manage and still have a strong early game; Fact or Fiction's at its very best when you don't desperately need a single exact card to stay alive.

I do live in the states, but down in Alabama, so it'd have to be a huge event and I'd have to be in better financial shape before I could manage a road trip to a large event. I mostly just settle for what's around here or on occasion, Atlanta.

[blac198990]

Hey taco, have you ever had the problem of not needing the loam? I have tested both since you have made your case with loam, like a year ago. And after testing, I actually took out both loam and crucible, and was just more careful with my lands. those 2 slots I was playing with actually became garruk.

Fact or fiction should be at the number 3 just for the fact that having one in opening hand is usually bad and have 2 is just to much and leaves you without drawing the things you need. 3 has always been a good number for me, 4 too much and 2 seems to not show up enough.


garruk>>>>goyf and tombstalker

goyf>>>>tombstalker.

[mossivo1986]

Since this whole loam crucible argument is kind of rearing it's ugly head I would like to express my thoughts to both blac and taco.

I know taco's opinion very well and I agree for the most part except for one distinct difference i've noticed in playtesting.

As far as crucible is concerned I like the consistency as soon as you drop it. More then likely going for the land out of graveyard as soon as it resolves. This is what I do 90% of the time. I wait until i've dropped all my lands and then I resort to the crucible engine inless I need a mishra's factory- crucible engine for a little bit. I find that crucible has incredible synergy with academy ruins and thats actually why I prefer the 2 crucible 2 EE 1 ruins combination. It may seem slow but giving yourself:

crucible + Ruins = long game mana production and inevitable mishra's factory beat down eventually

EE+ Ruins = long game stripping of cc 1-4 creatures. Although it does prohibit you from drawing more cards it can generally get you into the long game and once you get there it's all over for 90% of the decks in the field.

#2 on EE+ruins = you can also EE for 0 sac it for 2 and ruins it back on to your library for literally inevitability if your facing a 4-20 against a milling strategy or just lack of answers in the ultra late game.

I find that randomly wastelocking someone with crucible is also better then spending resource mana for loam, but thats not the main point of my argument. I do understand that loam digs up random mishra's factoryies and that it tends to be better when you have to have the card advantage against black discard decks aka hymn of torouch. POS. But realisticly decks can easily fight against that kind of b.s. with the right combination of cards. Heck Taco Garruck is a house against the discard decks if you can randomly put it back on top of your library with a brainstorm and/ or protect it until t4 when you drop it and make a token and procede to kick the crap out of an opponent more worried about crippling your hand then worrying about board position.

Like I said it's just an opinion. I mean no offense taco for dragging the dead horse on and on and on. I just hadn't seen that point made valid yet and I didn't know if you had thought about it.

[blac198990]

Here is an article from StarCityGames.com, where a person decided to make a landstill deck of his own, although he has not liked the idea of garruk, he loved the idea of... oh my gosh, I dont think I'm aloud to say this on here, I might get crucified, TARMOGOYF. aww man tarmogoyf is a good choice.


epic landstill (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/15263.html)

[Nightmare]

Here is an article from StarCityGames.com, where a person decided to make a landstill deck of his own, although he has not liked the idea of garruk, he loved the idea of... oh my gosh, I dont think I'm aloud to say this on here, I might get crucified, TARMOGOYF. aww man tarmogoyf is a good choice.


epic landstill (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/15263.html)
That man is a Genius.

[spirit of the wretch]

That man is a Genius.

I Lol'd!

[mossivo1986]

I don't know about Genious. I really don't like the idea of counter top in a control deck. You can raz it up however much you want but realisticly thresh has the best counter top plan. With more creature threats and a plan that is pro active I would think the many flavors of thresh beat a semi pro active land still any day. The other half of it is t-goyf in the deck. Yes this deck is a little proactive with goyf and counter-top. But you still have the same problems you had with decks like goblins/ thresh type decks. Your alreadt losing the board position inless you get some lucky flips or they get mana screwed or they have less removal then you do. Which if often not the case.

The bottom line to me is this is a bad version of still because you simply don't have the options against gobos and other high impact decks.

Your game against aggro control is kind of just meh as they beat you down with dazes and mongoose.

You do improve your combo match up if you land counter top but most combo is already favorable.

Bottom line u/w/g still is just not getting me there. I'd personally rather run ubg and have a chance with more disruption. Garruck is pure and simply better then top in power level and that counter top has a 1-3 - 1-6 chance of hitting said spell. and if their control counter top is not even close to as effective. EE is also amazing vs stupid synergys like that. or and plus academy ruins = yummy.

[Nightmare]

I don't know about Genious. I really don't like the idea of counter top in a control deck. You can raz it up however much you want but realisticly thresh has the best counter top plan. With more creature threats and a plan that is pro active I would think the many flavors of thresh beat a semi pro active land still any day. The other half of it is t-goyf in the deck. Yes this deck is a little proactive with goyf and counter-top. But you still have the same problems you had with decks like goblins/ thresh type decks. Your alreadt losing the board position inless you get some lucky flips or they get mana screwed or they have less removal then you do. Which if often not the case.

The bottom line to me is this is a bad version of still because you simply don't have the options against gobos and other high impact decks.

Your game against aggro control is kind of just meh as they beat you down with dazes and mongoose.

You do improve your combo match up if you land counter top but most combo is already favorable.

Bottom line u/w/g still is just not getting me there. I'd personally rather run ubg and have a chance with more disruption. Garruck is pure and simply better then top in power level and that counter top has a 1-3 - 1-6 chance of hitting said spell. and if their control counter top is not even close to as effective. EE is also amazing vs stupid synergys like that. or and plus academy ruins = yummy.You missed the point.

A) I wrote the article.
B) It isn't Landstill. Note the savage lack of Manlands. The fact that it runs 4 of the same cards (the Standstills) doesn't mean its the same deck. In fact, it plays quite differently from Landstill.
C) Standstill itself is in the process of being cut from the deck.

Please, if you have interest in the deck, continue it in the thread in the CANGD contest forum, located here (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8199).

[blac198990]

I played with a countertop sideboard for a while, and I liked having it but it seemed like to many slots for me to take out. I could practically bring it in every match but I still had to find 8 slots to do that, and most of the time I was taking out my removal or counter which countering the point of bringing in countertop. because of this, I took out the countertop side and went more for the mage/extirpate/plague board. But I also run tarmogoyf, soo maybe I should start my own thread and call it goyfstill.

[blac198990]

You missed the point.

A) I wrote the article.
B) It isn't Landstill. Note the savage lack of Manlands. The fact that it runs 4 of the same cards (the Standstills) doesn't mean its the same deck. In fact, it plays quite differently from Landstill.
C) Standstill itself is in the process of being cut from the deck.

Please, if you have interest in the deck, continue it in the thread in the CANGD contest forum, located here (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8199).

I like the article, hope to read more of them. (even thou you don't like garruk)

[Nightmare]

I like the article, hope to read more of them. (even thou you don't like garruk)I didn't say he's bad. I said he's significantly better when you run Counterspell. I don't so he isn't as good for me.

[mossivo1986]

Nightmare

To me this deck screems for

Descendant of Kiyomaro

and most deffinately a 1 of eternal dragon.

This would enable you to drop a fetch and add 1 more possible win condition. Also smoothing out your landbase even further.

auto including a savannah and dropping a sea for a scrubland.

but mostly just Descendant of Kiyomaro. This guy is soo good against the quick aggro in this format and he's rediculously good to me.

Note that the rules are more strictly enforced for these threads. (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7455) Your spelling and grammar leave much to be desired.
-TOOL

[JDunkin00]

Not to back up Galeng or anything, but I sort of disagree with this to the extent that without significant draw, Landstill tends to lose its ability to win a long game against a lot of aggro or aggro-control decks that can gain real or virtual card advantage of their own through cards like Ringleader, Confidant, Counterbalance, or whatever the case may be.

All control decks needs to refill becuase thats how you win the long game. Gaining more answers than they can threats while promoting your own gameplan. Basically I am sayin I agree with taco even though I haven't played Landstill since URW was the version of choice. The basic theology is still the same. Besides how can you argue with taco on any landstill discussion when he is a landstill master. If he plays Fact you should too, unless something new comes out, then test it and then consult w/ taco. Hehe

[blac198990]

Heres my list I used last night in a 10 man tourny.



land:
4 tropical island
4 underground sea
3 tundra
4 polluted delta
4 mishra's factory
3 flooded strand
1 nantuko monestary(don't ask, was supposed to be a breeding pool)

counter:
4 force of will
4 counterspell
3 stifle

draw:
4 brainstorm
4 standstill
2 fact or fiction

removal:
4 swords to plowshares

mass removal:
4 pernicious deed
2 engineered explosives

creature:
4 tarmogoyf
2 garruk wildspeaker

sideboard:
2 extirpate
2 meddling mage
2 engineered plague
2 krosan grip
3 blue elemental blast
2 trickbind
2 diabolic edict

before I start rambling on how the deck performed, the monestary will be a breeding pool once I pick one up. and the sideboard is completely not what I wanted but that is what I had for it right now and I'm waiting for some things in the mail. Here is the sideboard I will use once it is finished

sideboard:
4 extirpate
4 meddling mage
2 krosan grip
2 trickbind
3 blue elemental blast

I went 3-1 in the tourny, and then lost in the semi's. Sorry but this won't be an extensive report but it does help. Next week ill write down notes so I can give a better report.

first game was against, nick who was playing belcher, I beat him 2-0, first game, he had to mull to 5 and couldn't get close to going off, then second game, I had trickbind and krosan grip waiting.
1-0
second match was against a kid who played a rogue deck that was a red aggro deck with red creatures I've never heard before. easy 2-0
2-0
third match was against wiley with RBWG aggro deck with jotun grunt instead of tarmogoyf, but the normal burn,confidant, lions,and the ape.
first game went smooth with me dropping garruk for the win, (while not seeing a single tarmogoyf.)
second game, I saw 2 tarmogoyfs, but no counter and only 1 stp for removal, didnt go well and lost.
third game, I start with stifle on fetch then drop standstill turn two with a garruk on turn 4 backed up with another standstill. Had game in the bag.
3-0
last reg game was against gruber with black disruption with goyf.
well this was a strange game, first game I just walk through him no prob. then second game, he starts with a thoughtseize, then next turn drops wasteland and a duress, third turn he plays dark rit with hymn and thoughtseize, then i finally get 2 land and drop a standstill(now having no cards in hand) he plays duress taking out my deed( the other 2 cards were lands) it didnt work out to well.
third game, this game was very interesting, the game started out with a fight, I wasnt drawing any counterspell, but drew every deed and every stp, like 5 turn i got 2 factories, and played a gurruk. then he plays a pithing needle, naming garruk, then plays another needle, naming deed, he ends turn(with me having 2 deeds in hand) then i pretty much say go, then he plays another needle naming factory, this is when I was thinking of just scooping, but then remembered that I changed my list to have explosives, soo I'm fighting off everything he plays with edicts, extirpates, and swords, and he finally is able to stick a nantuko shade with me having 6 cards left in my library, (still didnt draw an explosives)he attacks for 12, I draw a tarmogoyf, he smothers, then attacks again, and i'm down to 1 then I draw a force of will and lose( my last four cards were in order, explosives, tarmogoyf, explosives, nantuko monestary) I had all 4 mishra's factory's out and a gurruk with over run ready, I could have killed in one hit if I could have drawn an explosives.
3-1
was in first place for playoffs out of top 4 thats when I play gus with tes
first game, I destroy with stifle, second game he had chant on third turn, and I didnt get a force, and ran out of mana to cast stifle after countering. third game he goes off on like turn 8 when he is almost dead, I got 1 force, 1 deed, 1 explosives, and 1 trickbind. he plays chant, I counter, he pyroblasts and then wins.



Srry bardo, accidently pressed wrong button and saved it, soo here you go, this is my finished post

[Sanguine Voyeur]

the monestary will be a breeding pool once I pick one up. I'm no expert on Landstill, but I thought Monastery was a very good man land. It's a 4/4 First Strike. Other then that, you only have Factories in terms of man lands. Am I missing something?

[blac198990]

I'm no expert on Landstill, but I thought Monastery was a very good man land. It's a 4/4 First Strike. Other then that, you only have Factories in terms of man lands. Am I missing something?

I dont play a normal, landstill deck like others with lots of manlands, I chose to play with tarmogoyf, and garruk which is better than all of the manlands. and I need extra green.

[from Cairo]

I like your list blac198990, I was testing something fairly similar with the heavy green splash for Garruk.

My list was rolling:
-4 Goyfs
-3 Stifle
-2 EE

+3 Sensei's Top
+2 Spell Snare
+2 Crucible of World
+2 Krosan Grip (Though EE could definitely be the right call for this spot)

I really like Sensei's Top it gives you one more edge under a Standstill, if you can guarantee land drops. Additionally it can combo with uncracked Fetches in play to "Lim'Dul's Vault" your top 3 when your opponent Ancestrals targeting you. It keeps the theme of the deck being immune to standard removal, and has synergy with Deed as it can be safely placed in top deck when removal is used.

Crucible still is useful with fetches and deck thinning, without Tarmogoyfs, the need for reusing Mishra's Factory is a bit more in demand.

Spell Snare vs. Stifle and Grip vs. EE is mostly what you would be expecting to face, in expectation of alot of Countertop Thresh, I thought Spell Snares and Grips MD might be more helpful, though with more thought, EE still probably wins out over Grip.

Just some thoughts.

[Tacosnape]

creature:
4 tarmogoyf

first game went smooth with me dropping garruk for the win, (while not seeing a single tarmogoyf.)

second game, I saw 2 tarmogoyfs, but no counter and only 1 stp for removal, didnt go well and lost.

third game, I start with stifle on fetch then drop standstill turn two with a garruk on turn 4 backed up with another standstill. Had game in the bag.

(still didnt draw an explosives)he attacks for 12, I draw a tarmogoyf, he smothers

Despite the fact that you seem to be one of the chief proponents of Tarmogoyf in Landstill, I submit your own report as evidence that Tarmogoyf is terrible in this deck (while Garruk is still awesome.)

Example 1, you won without it just fine.

Example 2, you lost because of it.

Example 3, you won without it just fine.

Example 4, you may have lost because of it, because it could have been another better card at this point, rather than an enabler to your opponent's Smother.

[blac198990]

your going off one match that tarmogoyf is bad, if you want to do that, then lets take out stp because it sucks in combo matchups, or lets take out standstill because it is worthless against 42land.dec, or hey maybe you should read the whole post instead of cutting 90% of mine when out of my 12 matches I won 8 and lost 4 and that out of the eight 6 of them were won with goyf, and only 2 were with garruk, and that against combo you take out garruk, because he is too slow, and your usually dead by 4 mana. You are basing your opinion on only reading what you want to read, I just got unlucky one match because I couldnt draw ony of my
4 deeds
4 swords to plowshares
2 engineered explosives

to get rid of jotun grunt, it was just bad luck, that is the reason you play best of 3.

and for the last line, what in its place could have won me the game??? any more draw would have decked me and if it wasnt a creature, the smother would have been for my mishra's factories which would have lost me the game anywaze. The last game was a total fluke to having both of my explosives in the last 4 cards and that he was able to draw all 3 of his needles in a row.

Your just one of those goyf haters, thats all, if you dont like it, then don't run it, but its your loss that your not playing the card that changed all of magic(goblins are not top deck because of goyf in threshold, vintage now has aggro decks, and practically every type 2 deck has green.) [Snip. Not so snarky. - Bardo]

All I can say to try to prove to you goyf is good is that, before I played goyf, I had horrible matchups against, 42 land.dec, burn aggro decks, and black disruptions decks(which is the average horrible matchups against landstill) and now I havnt lost a match against 42 land, or burn aggro decks, and the black disruption deck should have been mine, but I cant win them all.

[HSCK]

Why exactly are you such a big proponent of Goyf? If it's as widespread as you say (which it is) it just stalls and causes card disadvantage when you Deed/Wrath/Explosives. Oh, and if you're decking because of card drawing....you're probably not playing Landstill correctly. Garruk I think is a decent fit in Landstill because it wants to make the opponent lose the game as opposed to outright winning.

[yawg07]

That second game was wild, I D.Returns into 18 goblins (UGH, I hate having to resort to ETW) you just needed that G/B for deed.
But you gotta admit, I mull to 6 and my hand against you was ... Xantid, Chant, Pyroblast, LED, Chrome Mox, and City of Brass ... it doesn't get much better than that for me.

But as far as Tarmogoyf in Landstill goes, the whole point is a threat you don't have to keep paying for each turn.
I think it is a bad idea in a control deck like Landstill if you neglect to include him.

He really helps you hold up your game in the aggro/combo matchup.
He puts a clock on combo like no other and against combo you have to keep your Stifle/Trickbind/CSpell mana up.

[blac198990]

Why exactly are you such a big proponent of Goyf? If it's as widespread as you say (which it is) it just stalls and causes card disadvantage when you Deed/Wrath/Explosives. Oh, and if you're decking because of card drawing....you're probably not playing Landstill correctly. Garruk I think is a decent fit in Landstill because it wants to make the opponent lose the game as opposed to outright winning.

Pls read the post before you talk, everyone needs to realize that old school landstill isn't good enough anymore and need to find new ways to help it, I have found goyf. You on the other hand is still ignorant to try and play it, and if you actually read how the match was going, I was using every search and thinning I could so I could get to explosives, 7 fetchs, 4 standstills, 4 brainstorms, 2 facts and a naturally long game can get you decked if the 2 cards you need to win the match are in the last 4

and thank you yawg
that game was just crap, my chances of beating a hand like yours is impossible. I would have had 2 forces, 2 other blue cards and a stifle, which in a 4c build is practically impossible when I already used 1 force and a blue card to stop xantid. I dont think any deck can beat that hand, just impossible.

atleast our matches are always interesting and fun

You're going to need to improve your grammar, spelling and punctuation on this site and especially in this forum. - Bardo

[from Cairo]

But as far as Tarmogoyf in Landstill goes, the whole point is a threat you don't have to keep paying for each turn.
I think it is a bad idea in a control deck like Landstill if you neglect to include him.


A pair of Garruk does this fine though, either by untapping manlands after they swing or by generating a token. Garruk protects itself to a degree from attackers by being able to create a blocker. It doesn't create card disadvantage to your Deed/Wrath. It doesn't give you're opponent's Swords/Smothers/Shreikmaws 1 for 1 trade targets.

I don't see how a vanilla power/toughness creature helps the Landstill player establish card advantage if anything you lose card advantage by sweeping your creature or opening up to 2 for 1s with Shreikmaw. The deck has access to control cards with better synergy than Goyf for drawing the game into the later stages at which point a few bombs are enough to secure victory.

[HSCK]

@blac: Old school Landstill? You mean the Wildspeaker 4C that I prefer, that's not old school at all, that's playing smart. And if you're running Goys, Manlands, and Garruk you shouldn't be short on kill conditions with all that card drawing and control...UNLESS you cut control elements and blow up your win conditions...but Goyf is invulnerable to Deed right? ;)

[Tacosnape]

Pls read the post before you talk, everyone needs to realize that old school landstill isn't good enough anymore and need to find new ways to help it

I'm sorry, but you aren't the end-all expert on Landstill. I'm 35-0-1 in tournaments (23-0-1 Sanctioned) with my build/builds, none of which include Tarmogoyf. Insinuating that my 4C builds 'aren't good enough' anymore is just plain wrong. Furthermore, from the looks of all the posts, I'd say everyone did just fine at reading posts.

My points actually covered two of your three matches, not one. The first three from your third match and the last from your fourth. As for your other two matches, Tarmogoyf isn't much of a difference maker in the Belcher matchup. It might provide a clock, but it's replacing cards like Snare and Stifle that actually stop them from comboing off in the first place. So this, in my opinion, balances itself out. And against the janky red deck, alright, it might have made a difference (You didn't specify if it did or not.) But seriously hardcore janky red decks don't define Legacy.

Garruk Wildspeaker is far far stronger than Goyf. It provides recurring threats and additional mana and is immune to most standard forms of removal.

[Berzerked]

While I haven't tested Garruk yet, I can vouch for Goyfs inclusion 100%.

Sure, he dies to your own Deed/EE (I run a 3/3 split specifically for the whole Needle/Mage situation.), but chances are if there's something on the field that is scary enough for me to have to sweep and lose him as well, it's probably scary enough to outweigh the loss as long as it's gone. He pretty much handles everything else by himself.
I play Goyf early against Goblins, and if they can create an army that's too big, I'm glad to lose him to see all of them gone, he's already done his job. Then the next Goyf can beat down after I clear and drop a Standstill.
He's a very versatile tool. Even if he is just a big vanilla creature, he fills the role of kill condition, stall, removal, bait, and overall pressure.
I can't count the number of games against combo that I've won after stopping the combo and dropping him, that I would have lost without him. Against aggro I see no problem, he blocks and beats. Against control (assuming you can resolve him), he's an instant </=4 turn clock, that they must respond to, through your counter magic.
I can't see what I could replace him with to fill all of those roles, and at such a cheap cost.

[Burr]

Hey, I've been working on my landstill deck for a while and i was just wondering if using enlightened tutor in my u/w landstill would be a good idea or not. Any thoughts or comments?

[nightbringer]

Ive been playing him (goyf) in my UBRG landstill and he works extremely well there. He improves my goblins matchup and that was my worst matchup and he has great synergie with the rest of my deck.

Here is my decklist for refrence.
Its kinda my petdeck and ive been getting some great result with it.

4x Brainstorm
3x Smother
2x Extirpate
3x Burning Wish
4x Counterspell
4x Pernicious Deed
4x Standstill
4x Force of Will
2x Crucible of Worlds
2x Garruk wildspeaker
2x Shriekmaw
3x Tarmagoyf

land:

4x Polluted Delta
1x Flooded strand
3x Wasteland
3x Underground Sea
4x Tropial Island
3x Volcanic Island
1x Volrath's stronghold
4x Mishra's Factory
1x bayou

Sideboard:
1x call of the herd
1x Hull breach
1x Pyroclasm
1x Damnation
1x Haunting Echoes
1x Rude Awakening
1x Cranial Extraction
1x Shattering Spree
1x extirpate
3x tormods crypt
3x toughtseize

I change it weekly so there are still some flaws in the manabase but the maindeck is quite ok like it is now.

[blac198990]

Ive been playing him (goyf) in my UBRG landstill and he works extremely well there. He improves my goblins matchup and that was my worst matchup and he has great synergie with the rest of my deck.

Here is my decklist for refrence.
Its kinda my petdeck and ive been getting some great result with it.

4x Brainstorm
3x Smother
2x Extirpate
3x Burning Wish
4x Counterspell
4x Pernicious Deed
4x Standstill
4x Force of Will
2x Crucible of Worlds
2x Garruk wildspeaker
2x Shriekmaw
3x Tarmagoyf

land:

4x Polluted Delta
1x Flooded strand
3x Wasteland
3x Underground Sea
4x Tropial Island
3x Volcanic Island
1x Volrath's stronghold
4x Mishra's Factory
1x bayou

Sideboard:
1x call of the herd
1x Hull breach
1x Pyroclasm
1x Damnation
1x Haunting Echoes
1x Rude Awakening
1x Cranial Extraction
1x Shattering Spree
1x extirpate
3x tormods crypt
3x toughtseize

I change it weekly so there are still some flaws in the manabase but the maindeck is quite ok like it is now.


I like the decklist, how do you like the mainboard extirpates, If Ive ever low on some cards like when I was looking for garruk to put in or when I for some odd reason didnt have my facts I put in extirpates in md for the spots, and It was an amazing card, and I wish I could find a maindeck spot for them.

Also how is the burning wish working, this is the first list that Ive heard anyone use burning wish, and after looking at your list theres alot of stuff you can find.

I would love to hear a tourny report on some of your matches.

Hey taco, I guess I do know what I'm talking about.

Berzerked, your completly right, without goyf, the goblins matchup is really hard( and taco don't say it isn't just to be ignorant) and without him against combo, you have to fight to get a good hand again because they can go off again before the factories get the job done, the card is good in any matchup,
its a blocker, a clock, and if they waste removal for it then cool you got garruk and factories too, if the card was soo powerful to not get removed then the card would not have been made or would have been banned. It's quite funny when taco says that tarmogoyf is just removal bait when factories and monestary are actually easier to kill(wasteland pithing needle )

To burr, many people have tried it with some success, I havn't tried it personally so I couldn't give you real evidence, but I think the main reason why its not used is for the fact that it only goes for 2 cards( althou deed and standstill are really really good cards) and you lose a draw by doing it. And just dont play it against any threshold deck that has predict. If you think it could work, try it out, post a list up here and we can help you with it and see if we can get it to work.

taco, i'm not gonna argue with you about this because it just gonna get us in trouble with bardo, but I will say this, that janky red deck is a huge prominent deck in the meta right now, your meta might not have it but a meta in whole has tons of them, and stop hating goyf, goyf shines its best in 2 matchups, goblins, threshold. I shouldn't need to say more.

[Shawn]

goyf shines its best in 2 matchups, goblins, threshold. I shouldn't need to say more.

I understand Goy's ability to 2 for 1 or even 3 for 1 goblins, but shouldn't you already be able to beat Thresh without him? For the 4-c versions, Deed (and sometimes Engineered Explosives) wipes out their entire board and gets around Counterbalance, and Engineered Explosives and Wrath (for the most part) also get around Counterbalance. I usually don't have problems with ugr or ugw thresh*, even with a straight uw landstill build, and when black and green are added more cards that are great against thresh can be played, (like Deed, sb Grip and Extirpate) which seem to make the match up even better.

*I haven't played against the straight ug, and the versions with Wasteland, Stifle, Thoughtseize, and Extirpate have been giving me fits lately.

On the subject of Crucible (or Loam, like some prefer) , I think that it may needed to be discussed again. I've been finding it very useful even without Wasteland md. It improves future Brainstorms by allowing you to dig for business and not land drops, and fetching several more times allows for larger Decrees (in the heavy white versions). Recurring Factories against aggro is pretty good, and is awesome against most forms of control. Obviously Swords and Extirpate are played in most control decks and these stop recurring Factories, but even fetching 3-4 times more over the course of the game is very powerful in the control matchups. Crucible is also pretty good against Loam varients and Pox-style decks.

Enlightened tutor seems interesting. I've been messing around with a UWg list with Hoofprints of the Stag, Sylvan Library, and 1 Moat, and it seems decent. Being able to pump out a 4/4 flyer about every turn with Library+Brainstorm or Standstill is pretty powerful. Enlightened Tutor with Top/Counterbalance is pretty good, but I haven't played enough to see if it helps enough in problem matchups (except for burn, which it's really strong against), or ones where landstill is already favored.

[blac198990]

I understand Goy's ability to 2 for 1 or even 3 for 1 goblins, but shouldn't you already be able to beat Thresh without him? For the 4-c versions, Deed (and sometimes Engineered Explosives) wipes out their entire board and gets around Counterbalance, and Engineered Explosives and Wrath (for the most part) also get around Counterbalance. I usually don't have problems with ugr or ugw thresh*, even with a straight uw landstill build, and when black and green are added more cards that are great against thresh can be played, (like Deed, sb Grip and Extirpate) which seem to make the match up even better.

*I haven't played against the straight ug, and the versions with Wasteland, Stifle, Thoughtseize, and Extirpate have been giving me fits lately.

On the subject of Crucible (or Loam, like some prefer) , I think that it may needed to be discussed again. I've been finding it very useful even without Wasteland md. It improves future Brainstorms by allowing you to dig for business and not land drops, and fetching several more times allows for larger Decrees (in the heavy white versions). Recurring Factories against aggro is pretty good, and is awesome against most forms of control. Obviously Swords and Extirpate are played in most control decks and these stop recurring Factories, but even fetching 3-4 times more over the course of the game is very powerful in the control matchups. Crucible is also pretty good against Loam varients and Pox-style decks.

Enlightened tutor seems interesting. I've been messing around with a UWg list with Hoofprints of the Stag, Sylvan Library, and 1 Moat, and it seems decent. Being able to pump out a 4/4 flyer about every turn with Library+Brainstorm or Standstill is pretty powerful. Enlightened Tutor with Top/Counterbalance is pretty good, but I haven't played enough to see if it helps enough in problem matchups (except for burn, which it's really strong against), or ones where landstill is already favored.

The one thing that I have found about threshold matchups, are the fact that tye have more draw and counter, which makes it harder to drop down certian things like deed, plus if it is a good threshold player, and they know your playing landstill, they arnt gonna over extend with creatures so when you deed they can restock, but by playing that 1 tarmogoyf, it forces them to over extend to try and do damage, which is one of those times, its worth it to blow up the tarmogoyf, because your opponant is losing alot worse, before tarmogoyf, I would say that landstill has at the most a 60/40 match preboard against the 3c builds(have not faced 2c to know) and after board, it gets harder, but with goyf, the matchup becomes 70/30 even after board.

[yawg07]

Don't forget that Enlightened Tutor also fetches up E.Explosives/Top/Sylvan :cool:

[Tacosnape]

The one thing that I have found about threshold matchups, are the fact that tye have more draw and counter, which makes it harder to drop down certian things like deed, plus if it is a good threshold player, and they know your playing landstill, they arnt gonna over extend with creatures so when you deed they can restock, but by playing that 1 tarmogoyf, it forces them to over extend to try and do damage, which is one of those times, its worth it to blow up the tarmogoyf, because your opponant is losing alot worse, before tarmogoyf, I would say that landstill has at the most a 60/40 match preboard against the 3c builds(have not faced 2c to know) and after board, it gets harder, but with goyf, the matchup becomes 70/30 even after board.

You clearly haven't played this matchup ever.

Landstill outdraws Threshold. Period. Threshold has only cantrips and, occasionally, Predict. Landstill has a cantrip, a draw three, and a draw three out of five.

If they drop threats, you Edict, Swords, Explosives, or Deed them, or in the case of Nimble Mongoose, you have the option of killing it off with Mishra's Factory. You run more removal spells than they run threats.

Threshold beats you if they mess up your manabase, if they Counterbalance lock your removal, or if they drop several threats early and are just too fast for you to stabilize. Tarmogoyf doesn't help with the first, Tarmogoyf doesn't help with the second, and admittedly, he does help with the third. The most common card cut for him, Spell Snare, helps with both the second and the third.

The next point where you're wrong is that Landstill is significantly stronger against 3C builds than straight UG. Know why? The 3-color builds run removal that ordinary Landstill builds don't have to worry about in the slightest. U/G, however, runs Stifles, Wastelands, Spell Snares, Dazes, and tons of other annoying things that make it a nightmare for Landstill to stabilize.

[AnduYn]

Hey, I've been working on my landstill deck for a while and i was just wondering if using enlightened tutor in my u/w landstill would be a good idea or not. Any thoughts or comments?

Using Enlightened Tutor in a U/W Landstill might really be worth it, if you are playing Counterbalance/Top combo. A few Pro-Player designed a U/W Landstill with Counterbalance and were quite successful at Worlds. Check their decks (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgevent/worlds07/legacydecks) out for reference.


I've been playing 4C Landstill with a couple of Enlightened Tutors for a very long time now, and they were always fine for me.

I had great results with the deck as well. For example at the German Open Legacy Championship this year in Aschaffenburg with only a single loss in the finals (and a couple of draws in the Swiss rounds).

This (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=10647) is the deck list I played:

A Friend of mine won another big tournament in Germany with a very similar list (http://www.trader-online.de/turniere/Decks/2007-09-T15.html).


But 3 Enlightened tutors are definitely too much because the card disadvantage is a problem, and you NEVER want to see two.

The good thing about running ET is that they really improve your sideboard, especially if you enter a wide open field, and you don't know what the meta will be like. The main purpose of Tutor pre-board is to get humility on the table, witch won me so many games on it's own.

But if you have an idea of what you are playing against, you can cut a lot of the one- offs.


If you want to try ET in a four colour shell I would recommend a list that looks more like that:

// Lands
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Wasteland
2 Tropical Island
2 Nantuko Monastery
1 Savannah
3 Underground Sea
4 Mishra's Factory

// Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Standstill
2 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Humility
2 Fact or Fiction
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Vedalken Shackles
3 Counterspell
2 Diabolic Edict/Stifle (Combo/aggro meta)

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 Planar Void
SB: 4 Hydroblast
SB: 2 Extirpate

The Sideboard is mostly designed to fight Goblin, Loam and Ichorid decks, it's always a metagame call, which sideboard cards you use. But this board gives you 9 cards that will wreck loam/ichorid post board (4 leylines,2 Extirpates,2 Elnlightened Tutor,-> 1Planar void).

One Wasteland is left in the deck, because you can always tutor up your Crucible if you drew the Wasteland and want to go into the wasteland lock.

I have cut stifle from the list I normally play, because with only one Wasteland left the chances of randomly screwing your opponent are very low and it is often a better way to protect your manabase from opponent's wastelands when you go: ET-> Crucible. I really wanted the removal more, because, IF this deck loses to Thresh - I know that it doesn't to that often, but my meta is packed with Thresh decks - it loses because you can't get rid of an early Dark Confidant, especially if you lose a Land to Stifle or Wasteland.

Stifle is at it's best if you can stifle an opponents Fetchland. But this only throws you opponent behind for one turn, he will still be able to play all his threads throughout the game, and you will have to answer it. Yes, it will be easier if you have more mana, but it sometimes happens that you will have the Stifle for his land, but that you won't have the Sword/Edict for his Dark Confidant next turn.

[blac198990]

taco, I'm really tired of argueing with you when, I have tested goyf and have loved it, and although you seem to always make something up to make him look bad, I'm still going to play with goyf and win.

This is directed to you and everyone who is dangerously close to the line: agreeing to disagree is often the sensible posture. If you're getting tired of arguing over a point, then stop. - Bardo

hopefully to settle this and drop all of this stupid fighting, this is not a deck to beat, its an archtype to beat which means that their are many varients of the deck, hopefully I can name alot of them here for you:
BHWC landstill
4c landstill
UGU landstill
UGR landstill
UW landstill
UGB landstill
cunning wish landstill
burning wish landstill
UR landstill


Now that I have named these I would like to add one more....
goyfstill
Now I'm gonna be the big proponant of this and taco you can stick with your 4c landstill, so you can stop arguing about using goyf, since I feel that using goyf in landstill needs to take a different aproach to winning, and taco I dont think you know how to play landstill that way, which is alright, stick with your 4c build and i'll stick with my goyfstill. Here is a list that a person from worlds is playing. Its pretty close to my list with only the manabase and 4 cards diff, buts its pretty much the same idea.


Antonino de Rosa
2007 Worlds, Legacy
Main Deck

60 cards

3 Flooded Strand
1 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
24 lands


4 Tarmogoyf

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4 creatures


4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Force of Will
1 Ghastly Demise
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Standstill
4 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
32 other spells

Sideboard


4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Engineered Plague
1 Hydroblast
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Tormod's Crypt

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
15 sideboard cards

[Burr]

This my current deck list in progress, one problem is that its 62 cards and i need to cut 2 cards but can't figure out what to cut!!! Any suggestions on what to cut/add would be great!

Creatures
1 Eternal Dragon

Spells
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
1 Decree of Justice
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Force of Will
2 Mana Leak
1 Pulse of the Fields
3 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Wrath of God

Enchantments
1 Humility
3 Standstill

Artifacts
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Vedalken Shackles

Lands
1 Academy Ruins
2 Faerie Conclave
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Plains
4 Tundra
3 Wasteland

Planeswalkers
1 Ajani Goldmane

[blac198990]

This my current deck list in progress, one problem is that its 62 cards and i need to cut 2 cards but can't figure out what to cut!!! Any suggestions on what to cut/add would be great!

Creatures
1 Eternal Dragon

Spells
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
1 Decree of Justice
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Force of Will
2 Mana Leak
1 Pulse of the Fields
3 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Wrath of God

Enchantments
1 Humility
3 Standstill

Artifacts
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Vedalken Shackles

Lands
1 Academy Ruins
2 Faerie Conclave
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Plains
4 Tundra
3 Wasteland

Planeswalkers
1 Ajani Goldmane


the only thing I can think of is to take out the mana leaks, just because you have mass removal and normal removal as well as shackles, so you can keep your counters for other things.

[Burr]

I've thought about taking out the mana leaks, but then i also thought about taking out the counterspells and adding another mana leak. I've seen many landstill decks run mana leaks over counterspell, which do you think is better?

[Tacosnape]

Now that I have named these I would like to add one more....
goyfstill
Now I'm gonna be the big proponant of this and taco you can stick with your 4c landstill, so you can stop arguing about using goyf, since I feel that using goyf in landstill needs to take a different aproach to winning, and taco I dont think you know how to play landstill that way, which is alright, stick with your 4c build and i'll stick with my goyfstill. Here is a list that a person from worlds is playing. Its pretty close to my list with only the manabase and 4 cards diff, buts its pretty much the same idea.


Technically, you aren't the big proponent of this anyway. I'd give that honor to Bardo. At least he makes valid arguments in favor of Tarmogoyf.

Secondly, Goyfstill isn't a deck. It's Landstill with four cards added in it. Four cards that enable your opponent's removal spells and, by your own report, caused you losses.

The approach to winning isn't any different. You achieve card advantage, you get a threat online, you shut down your opponent, and you win. If your strategy to winning is different, it's inferior. Dropping a turn two Tarmogoyf and spending all your countermagic to protect it is an inferior strategy for this deck, your variant or mine, and if this is your plan, you're better off playing Threshold.

I'm not making up anything. I've played probably close to a thousand matches with Landstill, at least thirty or forty with Tarmogoyf. I find that while it can speed up a win, it does nothing to change my actual win percentage to the positive. I find it dies to my own Deeds at times, I find it enables opponent's removal spells, and I've find I've lost several games because it wasn't a blue card when I desperately needed to Force of Will something. In short, I find Tarmogoyf makes the deck lose more. Your own report supports this theory.

Therefore it's completely valid of me to question the card's presence. It in no way violates the "Archetype" status of Landstill, nor is it valid to avoid a defense of a card accused of being inferior by saying "It's a different build." All this does is show that you have no logical argument to back up your inclusion of Tarmogoyf. When I was the big proponent of cutting Wasteland in 4C, I backed it up with countless logical arguments. When I kept insisting on running Loam in it over Crucible, I backed it up with countless logical arguments. Right or wrong, I didn't take the stance of "Don't argue with me because it's a different built." I set out to prove my points. I am doing so again with Tarmogoyf. So if you're going to attack me, attack my builds, and call my builds obsolete, at least include some logical points along with it.


I've thought about taking out the mana leaks, but then i also thought about taking out the counterspells and adding another mana leak. I've seen many landstill decks run mana leaks over counterspell, which do you think is better?

Counterspell. Mana Leak is awful on about turn 8 or 9. If your manabase can't support Counterspell, I'd suggest altering it until it can. Most of your colorless lands don't need to come down in the first couple turns anyway.

[Burr]

Thanks taco. Also, I've been going back on fourth on the decision to use Hoofprints of the stag or Ajani goldmane. What do you guys think?

Thanks for all the help guys

[blac198990]

Technically, you aren't the big proponent of this anyway. I'd give that honor to Bardo. At least he makes valid arguments in favor of Tarmogoyf.

Secondly, Goyfstill isn't a deck. It's Landstill with four cards added in it. Four cards that enable your opponent's removal spells and, by your own report, caused you losses.

The approach to winning isn't any different. You achieve card advantage, you get a threat online, you shut down your opponent, and you win. If your strategy to winning is different, it's inferior. Dropping a turn two Tarmogoyf and spending all your countermagic to protect it is an inferior strategy for this deck, your variant or mine, and if this is your plan, you're better off playing Threshold.

I'm not making up anything. I've played probably close to a thousand matches with Landstill, at least thirty or forty with Tarmogoyf. I find that while it can speed up a win, it does nothing to change my actual win percentage to the positive. I find it dies to my own Deeds at times, I find it enables opponent's removal spells, and I've find I've lost several games because it wasn't a blue card when I desperately needed to Force of Will something. In short, I find Tarmogoyf makes the deck lose more. Your own report supports this theory.

Therefore it's completely valid of me to question the card's presence. It in no way violates the "Archetype" status of Landstill, nor is it valid to avoid a defense of a card accused of being inferior by saying "It's a different build." All this does is show that you have no logical argument to back up your inclusion of Tarmogoyf. When I was the big proponent of cutting Wasteland in 4C, I backed it up with countless logical arguments. When I kept insisting on running Loam in it over Crucible, I backed it up with countless logical arguments. Right or wrong, I didn't take the stance of "Don't argue with me because it's a different built." I set out to prove my points. I am doing so again with Tarmogoyf. So if you're going to attack me, attack my builds, and call my builds obsolete, at least include some logical points along with it.



Counterspell. Mana Leak is awful on about turn 8 or 9. If your manabase can't support Counterspell, I'd suggest altering it until it can. Most of your colorless lands don't need to come down in the first couple turns anyway.

[Warning for flaming. Chill out. - Bardo] I have given every reason to play goyf, but you seem not to have read any of that. But if you truely need me to tell you again I guess I could but i'm not gonna repeat everything in this thread because everyone here would prob like to talk about something else other than you complain about goyf, if you want to know the reasons, send me a message.

Oh and it does take a different approach to MY kind of list, you have to be aggressive, and actually learn to attack someone on the first 10 turns.

I've also noticed that you have ignored me every time I have asked you for a tourny report, but you still think your an expert. Does that mean that all of your thousand matches are 5 years old??

[holkenborg]

I prefer 2 Garruk Wildspeaker and 2/3 Tombstalker as kill-conditions. Tombstalker only costs 2 mana, because your graveyard doesn't really matter (just leave 1 fetch/wasteland for crucible). You can't play him turn 2, which makes Tarmogoyf better, but it is a 5/5 FLYING creature. The flying makes him better than Tarmogoyf, I think. I do not like the idea of playing a turn 2 Tarmogoyf, just because you can block early critters. In that case, I think, you should play more Engineered Explosives, Innocent Blood and stuff like that, no creatures. That is not the control spirit :P As for a kill condition, the 5/5 flying is better than a 5/6 (most of the times) creature. The only reason why Tarmogoyf is better, is that against combo decks it sets a clock.

Last point: if you decide to play Tarmogoyf, then do not play Landstill, but just a aggro control deck. The idea of Landstill is to play slow and finish the opponent in turn 20 or something. Garruk and Tombstalker fit better in that case. If I would play Tarmogoyf, I would add things like Counterbalance.

[Tacosnape]

Thanks taco. Also, I've been going back on fourth on the decision to use Hoofprints of the stag or Ajani goldmane. What do you guys think?

Thanks for all the help guys

I like Hoofprints in your build. I'm not a huge Ajani fan, and after testing TEC out, Hoofprints is a lot more badass in play than it looks. If I weren't running Deed and I ran white, I would definitely run Hoofprints.


I prefer 2 Garruk Wildspeaker and 2/3 Tombstalker as kill-conditions. Tombstalker only costs 2 mana, because your graveyard doesn't really matter (just leave 1 fetch/wasteland for crucible). You can't play him turn 2, which makes Tarmogoyf better, but it is a 5/5 FLYING creature. The flying makes him better than Tarmogoyf, I think. I do not like the idea of playing a turn 2 Tarmogoyf, just because you can block early critters. In that case, I think, you should play more Engineered Explosives, Innocent Blood and stuff like that, no creatures. That is not the control spirit :P As for a kill condition, the 5/5 flying is better than a 5/6 (most of the times) creature. The only reason why Tarmogoyf is better, is that against combo decks it sets a clock.

Last point: if you decide to play Tarmogoyf, then do not play Landstill, but just a aggro control deck. The idea of Landstill is to play slow and finish the opponent in turn 20 or something. Garruk and Tombstalker fit better in that case. If I would play Tarmogoyf, I would add things like Counterbalance.

I completely agree with your last paragraph.

That said, is Tombstalker really necessary either, between Garruk and your Manlands? I agree it's a solid finisher and flying is nice, but they're still going to be able to use their otherwise mostly-dead removal on it without any fear (And in some builds it's significantly harder to cast thanks to the double black.)

[holkenborg]

That said, is Tombstalker really necessary either, between Garruk and your Manlands? I agree it's a solid finisher and flying is nice, but they're still going to be able to use their otherwise mostly-dead removal on it without any fear (And in some builds it's significantly harder to cast thanks to the double black.)

I like the idea of multiple win conditions in case of Extirpate, Pithing Needle, etc. That's why I would play 2 Garruk and 2 Tombstalker.

[kicks_422]

@Tacosnape: Just don't mind the guy. Let him play with his precious Goyfs, it's not your loss.

I've been testing UBG builds with 4 each of Factories and Mutavaults, with 3 Garruks. It's been working fine and is generally just as powerful minus StP as 4C, but it's the SB that feels lacking. I kind of miss the Meddling Mages.

[Tacosnape]

I've been testing UBG builds with 4 each of Factories and Mutavaults, with 3 Garruks. It's been working fine and is generally just as powerful minus StP as 4C, but it's the SB that feels lacking. I kind of miss the Meddling Mages.

I know. The Mages are what I miss the most in UBG testing. I suppose I could always try that new Blue Mage Enchantment thingy in Morningtide. Or just Counterbalance, for that matter. But Mage's doubling as a kill condition has won me more games than I can count. If there's three cards in Legacy I play well, it's the Name A Card trilogy of Mage, Therapy, and Needle, and I'd feel naked without the Mages in board. I might have to suck it up eventually, though.

How's Mutavault compared to Treetop Village? My instinct has been to try Treetop Village as it assists in my casting Garruk (And allows me to do so if my Tropicals get Extirpated.)

[Shriekmaw]

I've seen a lot of people arguing which build of landstill is better. Is it the 4 color build, UWg, or UWb. I recently played a U/W/b build with Enlightened Tutors. I know everyone dismisses the build, but I really believe its a very solid build that has the ability to improve bad matchups because you can tutor for a card.

I would like to have some discussion on whether the Enlightened Landstill is viable instead of everyone talking about adding Goyf into Landstill.

I didn't like Goyf b/c it seemed like it didn't improve any matchups where Enlightened Tutor actually did.

[holkenborg]

I would like to have some discussion on whether the Enlightened Landstill is viable instead of everyone talking about adding Goyf into Landstill.

I personally think that there are two different types of Landstill decks: the UWg version with toolbox and Humility and the UGB version with Deeds maybe a splash to StP. I recently changed from toolbox to UGB because I prefer the Extirpates in my sideboard. But I really loved to abuse the toolbox.

Maybe a tip for you if you play that version: try Genju of the Fields main 1x. It may sound stupid, but that guy saved matched for me against aggro and burn. With 3 tutors it's like playing 4 lifegaining cards. Also you could play Exalted Angels in this version instead of the Tarmogoyf / Tombstalker / Garruk.

My conclusion/point is that UWg Toolbox and UBGw are two different Landstill decks.. There actually should be two topics about them..

[nightbringer]

I like the decklist, how do you like the mainboard extirpates, If Ive ever low on some cards like when I was looking for garruk to put in or when I for some odd reason didnt have my facts I put in extirpates in md for the spots, and It was an amazing card, and I wish I could find a maindeck spot for them.

Also how is the burning wish working, this is the first list that Ive heard anyone use burning wish, and after looking at your list theres alot of stuff you can find.

I would love to hear a tourny report on some of your matches.


I really like the mainboard extirpate and i used to play 3 but i had to cut one because I lacked room to include other things and because in some games 3 was just to much.

Burning wish is insane and there are loads of good cards in the format you can wish for.
Some can look a bid weird but I have used every single one of them and I can resolve almost every situation with them.
The call of the herd really shines her to.

As for goyf, you should al stop to making a big deal out of this.
If you want to play him then play him and if you don’t like hem then don’t.
You all have good points to play hem or not to play him but its just a matter of personal flavor I think.

LFL seems ok in this version to but I think I would play tombstalker instead of goyf when I do. It would require a lot of testing to.

[blac198990]

heres a link to the top eight of the first big tourny of 2008

top eight (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8090)

here is the landstill list that got top 8
Top8: Friendly Phil Stolze
4c Landstill

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Counterspell
3 Stifle
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Fact of Fiction
2 Crucible of Worlds
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Nantuko Monestary
4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta

Sideboard:
4 Engineered Plague
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Stifle
2 Darkblast
2 Extirpate


not to sure if I agree with the sideboard, but I might give some of it a try.

[Mental]

Stifle MB? That's so unexpected these days it could work. Anyways, the list looks fairly solid. Not too sure about 1x Monestery, though. Isn't it basically the reason to splash white?

[blac198990]

Stifle MB? That's so unexpected these days it could work. Anyways, the list looks fairly solid. Not too sure about 1x Monestery, though. Isn't it basically the reason to splash white?

Not sure if your just kidding around or you just have not read landstill in a long time, stifle has been main board since nick played BHWC to top 8.

I've been playing with a single monestary for a while mainly because it's gonna be a breeding pool when I get one. and white is splashed for him, stp.

[Mental]

Not sure if your just kidding around or you just have not read landstill in a long time, stifle has been main board since nick played BHWC to top 8.

I've been playing with a single monestary for a while mainly because it's gonna be a breeding pool when I get one. and white is splashed for him, stp.

No, I'm not kidding. I haven't found room for it in my list lately and I haven't seen it in many of the lists poster here lately. I agree white is splashed for StP but if that's all you're splashing it for you might as well just stick with straight Ubg for consistency. Smother/Edict isn't bad removal.

[Shriekmaw]

No, I'm not kidding. I haven't found room for it in my list lately and I haven't seen it in many of the lists poster here lately. I agree white is splashed for StP but if that's all you're splashing it for you might as well just stick with straight Ubg for consistency. Smother/Edict isn't bad removal.


I agree about splashing white for only Swords to Plowshares seemed like a waste to me. If you need additional removal then I would suggest Smother, Diabolic Edict, or Ghastly Demise. These are all good alternatives. I know they are not as good as Swords but by adding consistency to the deck will improve it.

[Burr]

It seems that the 4c landstill is performing the best but i still want to stay true to my u/w enlightened landstill. here's my deck list, ANY suggestions would be great!



Creatures
1 Eternal Dragon

Spells
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
1 Decree of Justice
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Force of Will
1 Pulse of the Fields
3 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Wrath of God

Enchantments
1 Humility
3 Standstill

Artifacts
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Vedalken Shackles

Lands
1 Academy Ruins
2 Faerie Conclave
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Plains
4 Tundra
3 Wasteland

Planeswalkers
1 Ajani Goldmane

[Tacosnape]

White isn't splashed just for STP. It also gives you access to Monestary, who ends the game in 5 turns or less, and most importantly, Meddling Mage, who in the right hands will get you out of about a thousand situations you can't get out of otherwise. Mage improves Combo and Prison matches to a degree UBG alone can't give you. For me, it's still worth it.

Oh, and Stifle maindeck is still good. Some matches it's just Force Fodder, but it stops Wasteland, is fantastic against combo, is great against problematic things like Eternal Witness, on the play buys you a guaranteed turn to drop a safe Standstill, and is just generally pretty decent against a lot of things. If anything, Snare's weakening, as the format seems to be shifting towards a lot of 3 CMC cards.

@Burr: Four Standstills >> Three Standstills. Especially when your manabase is fantastic at taking advantage of them.

[holkenborg]

Oh, and Stifle maindeck is still good. Some matches it's just Force Fodder, but it stops Wasteland, is fantastic against combo, is great against problematic things like Eternal Witness, on the play buys you a guaranteed turn to drop a safe Standstill, and is just generally pretty decent against a lot of things.

I don't understand your sentence "on the play buys you a guaranteed turn to drop a safe Standstill". How does Stifle guarantee you a Standstill? I Think I miss the point here :wink:

[diffy]

It seems that the 4c landstill is performing the best but i still want to stay true to my u/w enlightened landstill. here's my deck list, ANY suggestions would be great!

Looks a lot like something I built some time ago under the name of Moatality (http://www.zkforum.de/showpost.php?p=465586&postcount=5) and that was quite successfull in Germany.

Some ideas concerning your build:
You need more Moat (permanent WoG against most decks, hardlock with Humility)
The one random PotF is crappy. Keep it for the Sideboard (you need it early but a random 1off without means to tutor it up will never turn up early)
I don't like Ajani at all as the primary effect is pretty weak, the casting cost high and the card only good in conjunction with DoJ (or Factory but then its even slower)
I think you have too many non-islands to support Shackles to the fullest extent


Here's my old build


---Mainboard--- (60)

--Lands-- (24)

1x Faerie Conclave
4x Mishra's Factory
3x Wasteland

4x Flooded Strand
2x Polluted Delta

4x Tundra
3x Island
2x Plains
1x Seat of the Synode

--Creatures-- (1)

1x Eternal Dragon

--Permission-- (10)

4x Force of Will
4x Counterspell
2x Mana Leak

--Card draw-- (9)

4x Brainstorm
3x Standstill
2x Fact or Fiction

--Removal-- (8)

2x Wrath of God
4x Swords to Plowshaeres
2x Condemn

--Tutor Stuff-- (8)

3x Enlightened Tutor

1x Humility
2x Moat
1x Pithing Needle
1x Crucible of Worlds


I'd apply these changes:

-1 Wasteland
-1 Island
+1 Windswepth Heath
+1 Academy Ruins

-2 Condemn
+1 Oblivion Ring
+1 Engineered Explosives

-2 Mana Leak
+2 Engineered Explosives

[Nihil Credo]

I don't understand your sentence "on the play buys you a guaranteed turn to drop a safe Standstill". How does Stifle guarantee you a Standstill? I Think I miss the point here :wink:
Stifle their turn 1 fetchland, turn 2 drop Standstill while safe from Daze.

[galeng]

I'm having a lot of trouble with my sideboard. Here it is:

Sideboard:
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Hydroblast
Wishboard:
1 Teferi's Response
1 Dissipate
1 Tsabo's Decree
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Extirpate
1 Krosan Grip

My matchups against red decks are generally bad and that's why I'm running 8blasts. My only other really bad matchups are breakfast and ichorid combo. I'm currently trying to find space for 4 leyline of the void, which I'm seeing in landstill builds a lot. The cards that I'm not that into are my 1 teferi's response and 1 dissipate. This is what I'm thinking of:

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Hydroblast
Wishboard:
1 Tsabo's Decree
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Extirpate
1 Krosan Grip

What do you think?

[blac198990]

Have you tried extirpate instead of leylines??? against ichorid, you take out the ichorids(if you maindeck things like explosives and pernicious deeds) or take out bridge and only have to deal with ichorid which a couple swords and a couple blockers, and hes out of black creatures to sack. Against breakfast, you can take out the combo, without risk of counterspell. they won't see it coming, and if you time it right, they will have their tarmogoyfs in the graveyard to sac, which makes the game really easy. Dropping leylines will make the breakfast player just go aggro going tarmogoyf with counter backup which is still easily beated but is still a kill mech for them.

The one thing I have found about red decks is that if you can get a couple of blockers early you win, you save your counter for the burn, and the removal for the problematic creatures such as grunt, goyf, bob,and such, and get blockers for the smaller ones of ape, lion,hound. And dont be afraid to drop a deed early to blow even if it is for 1 creature, low life is a bad situation for you. They have way more burn than you do counter.

[galeng]

Yes I tried extirpate. Works slightly against ichorid, but it's pretty lame against breakfast when they therapy it out of your hand anyway. I realized that either void enchantment just shuts them down. It extipates them of every card in their deck basically.

I just thought of this:

Sideboard
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Leyline of the Void
Wishboard:
1 Hydroblast
1 Dissipate
1 Tsabo's Decree
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Extirpate
1 Krosan Grip

Now that's really solid.

[Tacosnape]

I don't understand your sentence "on the play buys you a guaranteed turn to drop a safe Standstill". How does Stifle guarantee you a Standstill? I Think I miss the point here :wink:

I should have said -can- buy you a turn, specifically if the opponent plays a fetchland, whether they crack it or not. In this case, you won't be staring down any sort of permanent too scary to drop Standstill on top of, such as an Aether Vial, a Ritualed Specter, or anything of that nature.

[Burr]

Check this card out, looks like a great addition to landstill to me o.O

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/dl19

[blac198990]

Check this card out, looks like a great addition to landstill to me o.O

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/dl19

Ehh its already been brought up, the card has been shown for a while on mtgsalvation.com. Some people like it, some people don't, personally I think that it is just not powerful enough, the main manlands ever run in landstill have had what I call a 2 part effect:
mishra's factory-----> 2/2 that can pump
nantuko monestary-----> 4/4 first strike
treetop village------->3/3 trample
farie conclave--------> 2/1 flying
metavault------->2/2 changling(which I dont count as something helpful, because it relys on another card to be good)
the top 4 have something helpful to themselves, metavualt needs something else to make it better. If it was better than any of the top 3 then I would think about it, but the normal manlands are still better. the card will do awsome in standard, but not in legacy.

[Nihil Credo]

IDK about you guys, but whenever I play 2.5C Landstill (meaning either UW splashing B for Extirpate/Plague, or UB splashing G for Deed and Grip) I found myself wishing to draw Factory more often.
I haven't tested it yet, but I think Mutavault will make a nice Factory #5 in those decks. Sure it doesn't pump itself, but I'm not playing a CIPT land just for +1/+1 or evasion.

[galeng]

Check this card out, looks like a great addition to landstill to me o.O

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/dl19

It makes mono blue and UW landstill a little more viable. UGB has treetop village if they want another man land. 4c has nantuko monestary.

[Tacosnape]

I think Mutavault is certainly worth testing. Two Factories and a Mutavault in play is every bit as good as three Factories on the attack (You swing with the Vault, and can pump it with the Factories if need be), though not as good on the defense.

I'll be testing a lot in my current Garruk build to figure out whether the best manland is still Monestary, Treetop for the extra green, or Mutavault.

[kicks_422]

I think it's simple, really. If your build has a focus on powerful permanents (such as Bardo's build with Deeds, Shackles, Explosives, etc.) and less reactive cards, Monastery is better. If your build has a focus on reactive cards (Counterspells, Stifles, etc.), then Mutavault is better. That one mana you save from activation is a huge thing even though the Monastery beats for twice Mutavault, and you get to save 2 colored mana in exhange for a colorless.

As for Treetop Village, I never really liked CIPT lands (except now with Mosswort Bridge... :tongue:). Besides, I don't think it would be the Trops that they'd be Extirpating first if they had a choice.

[galeng]

Is engineered plague still a viable sideboard option? I tested it for a while and never brought it in except in one goblin match, one breakfast match, and one TES match. Competitive goblin builds are prepared for plague with krosan grip. In the other two matchups, they were pretty irrelevant: Just another deed against TES if they do chose the warrens path, and just crappy removal against breakfast that gets countered or bounced, with a clock slower then when they go off. Theres already board options that go in on those matchups anyway. What's the point of e plague now that goblins are barely even played?

[Bardo]

Is engineered plague still a viable sideboard option?

No sideboard should be viewed as sacrosanct and always "correct." They should be built with an eye of replacing match-up dependent "weak" maindeck cards with cards that have more value and relevance (unless you're running a transformational sideboard and plan to interact with your opponent in a much different direction than the maindeck).

So, if no one is playing Goblins or any other deck that wins by exploiting tribal synergies in your area, then drop the Plagues. I've always seen their utility vs. TES and Ichorid as sort of fringe, and it isn't the main reason we run Plague in the first place.

As far as Krosan Grip goes: meh. Plague's job isn't to decimate Goblins (though it's always nice when it does.) It's there to stall your opponent and gain time and breathing room. Plague does that fantastically, at a reasonable cost.

My current U/b/g sideboard:

4 Engineered Plague
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Hydroblast
1 Mindslaver

Dunno about the Mindslaver--it's mainly there for the mirror and for recursion with Academy Ruins. Otherwise, my board is built to fight tribal decks (Goblins, Slivers, etc.), decks that rely on their graveyard, and decks that run ultra-low casting costs (Thresh, burn, Fish, etc.), with some HBlasts thrown in for good measure and which get a lot of use.

[zulander]

So Landstill has peaked my interest lately and I have a couple of questions.

1. What are the min/max number of lands you should run?

2. What is the skeleton of a landstill deck(i.e the cards you must run, like bs/standstill/force).

3. Basics, yay or nay?

[diffy]

1. What are the min/max number of lands you should run?


23 lands are the absolute minimum with some sort of way to tutor them up (Eternal Dragon) or a really low curve.
From then onwards people tend to play 24-26 lands.
I personally find 26 to be very high but if you're playing more than 3 colors and some Wastelands I can see the reason why you'd want to go that high.



2. What is the skeleton of a landstill deck(i.e the cards you must run, like bs/standstill/force).


Lands
4-8 Fetchies
4 Mishra's Factory
0-4 Wastelands
0-4 Basics
0-n Duals

Permission
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
0-4 Stifle

Card Draw
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
0-3 Fact or Fiction

Utility
0-2 Crucible of Worlds / Life from the Loam

Removal
4 Swords to Plowshares / Other cmc1 spot removal (Ghastly Demise, Innocent Blood...)
3-4 Pernicious Deed / Wrath of God
2-3 Engineered Explosives / CrimePunishment

Based on that skeleton there are several builds at the moment:
UW Landstill with heavy Enlightened Tutor engine / Counterbalance
UWb Landstill with Humilities and Cunning Wish
Ubg Landstill with Tarmogoyf/Tombstalker
Ubg Landstill with Planeswalkers
4c Landstill with Tarmogoyf/Tombstalker
4c BHWC Landstill



3. Basics, yay or nay?


In anything not 4c yay.
In 4c 0-2 are just fine.

[galeng]

So, if no one is playing Goblins or any other deck that wins by exploiting tribal synergies in your area, then drop the Plagues.

Yeah you're right. Other than the goblin matchup the plagues really just serve as crappy utility, or as a mini deed.

Another thought: Is there a difference between 4 blue elemental blasts board or 2 blue blasts and 2 hydroblasts? I'm thinking of just having 4 blasts in there and 1 hydroblast for routine purposes (the hydroblast should always stay in the board for cunning wish), but I'm worried the differences in card name will actually affect gameplay. Ex: Cabal Therapy. Does it really matter? I see a lot of successful lists with the straight up 4 blue blasts anyway.

[zulander]

Okay, so here's my U/B/G/w list:

Mana: 25
4 Delta
4 Strand
4 Trop
4 Sea
3 Tundra
2 Islands
4 Factories

Disruption: 18
4 Thoughtseize
3 Swords
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Deed
1 EE

Draw: 11
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
2 Fact or Fiction
1 Gifts Ungiven

Other Win-Cons: 6
4 Goyf
2 Garruk

Still working on a sideboard, but TS is the nuts in the deck so far.

[Bovinious]

Gifts doesnt seem very good, theres no Gifts pile in that list that just wins, itd probably be better off as another FoF. Also, wheres Monastery?

[Arsenal]

@zulander

Please explain the singleton Gifts. Looks interesting if you played Crucible, but you do not. If I was to cut anything, it'd be that singleton Gifts and add 1 StP. I understand you have Thoughtseize, but StP should always be an auto-4of in any Landstill deck, imo.

[zulander]

Gifts gets you whatever you need. Need removal? get 1 swords/deed/ee, need a win con? Get goyf/garruk/factory. Need some disruption? Get force/cs/ts. The fourth card is almost always a FoF or still, and I usually never get those.

[Arsenal]

Gifts gets you whatever you need. Need removal? get 1 swords/deed/ee, need a win con? Get goyf/garruk/factory. Need some disruption? Get force/cs/ts. The fourth card is almost always a FoF or still, and I usually never get those.

I suppose, however, you're sacrificing future consistency for the "right-now" approach, but I can see how that would work in a tight situation. The thing I like about all control decks, Landstill being no different, is it's redundancy and consistency to naturally draw into answers; you don't really need to Tutor for anything.

Interesting take.

[zulander]

You don't really need to Tutor for anything.

I'm still testing with the one of but it seems pretty strong late game. It helps out tremendously against decks that are also geared for the late game. Sometimes you just need that last oomph to put the cap on the game.


you're sacrificing future consistency for the "right-now" approach
Actually it's the other way around. You're sacrificing the "right-now" answer (swords) for late game consistency since you can always get fof/still/bs with your late game gifts.

@bovi: I haven't tried adding in monasteries yet since they don't produce colored mana early (neither does factory I know), but they also come online much later than factories. Maybe -1 sea +1 monastery could fly, but so far with garruk/goyfs I haven't needed it.

[Arsenal]

Actually it's the other way around. You're sacrificing the "right-now" answer (swords) for late game consistency since you can always get fof/still/bs with your late game gifts.

By running 3 and 4's of virtually everything important, you have a certain degree of redundancy and consistentcy in your natural draws. By playing Gifts for StP/EE/Deed (choosing one of them for right-now removal), you have now permanently reduced the chances of having your natural draw give you what you would've drawn anyway (one of those cards you Gifted for).

[blac198990]

hows the garruk/goyf kill working for you, I've used it for some time now and it has worked wonders for me. If your using garruk/goyf kill, you don't monestary, it's just more colorless mana that is not needed when you could use that slot for things like ee and such.

[Arsenal]

hows the garruk/goyf kill working for you, I've used it for some time now and it has worked wonders for me. If your using garruk/goyf kill, you don't monestary, it's just more colorless mana that is not needed when you could use that slot for things like ee and such.

Yes, I'd like to know this too. Have you ever felt as though Goyf was making you cast him semi-early, then try to protect him (similar to Thresh)? Or has the versatility of playing the aggro-control role, then switching to pure control (24 turn wins) been paying off? I'd like to know what your testing has found.

[Mental]

I'm building Ugb Landstill. I know a couple things about my list:
1) I don't want to run Goyf. I have tested it and didn't like it that much.
2) I want to run Vedalken Shackles

I like Bardo's list...it was my starting point.

Here's my current list:

4x Flooded Strand
2x Polluted Delta
3x Underground Sea
3x Tropical Island
3x Island
4x Mishra's Factory
1x Academy Ruins
2x Mutavault
3x Wasteland

4x Shriekmaw
4x Pernicious Deed
2x Engineered Explosives
2x Vedalken Shackles

4x Force of Will
4x Counterspell

4x Brainstorm
4x Standstill
3x Fact or Fiction

2x Crucible of Worlds
2x Garruk Wildspeaker

Sideboard:
4x Engineered Plague
4x Leyline of the Void
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Krosan Grip

Any comments/help? I think my goblins MU isn't as good as it should be, with limited testing.

[holkenborg]

Quick aggro decks like goblins are just bad matchups for Landstill. I don't think that will really change. You could play Innocent Blood instead of Shriekmaw to kill a turn 1 Lackey when you loose the roll. I test a lot against Goblins and Meathooks, because the friend I test with, plays only these two decks. Against Goblins I find my 4 Stifle very handy, because the thing about goblins is... you can Deed everything, but then they cast a Matron or Ringleader and they keep on coming with new ones.. If you prevent them from finding new goblins, you can win on card advantage. At least, that is my experience. And of course, after sideboard, I (different for everybody) have 4 Hydroblast en 3 Engineered Plague :)

Against Meathooks it is simpler. Make sure your Deed comes through and counter the Vial. I don't play StP (but Edict), so Crystalline doesn't matter to me. Engineered Explosives (I run 2 and want to put 2 in Sideboard) are just as good as Deed for they'll kill them all if you put it on 2 :) They use a lot of fetch, so try to Stifle early fetch (of course...).

But this is of course my experience with someone just in our rooms, not at a tournament.

[zulander]

Yes, I'd like to know this too. Have you ever felt as though Goyf was making you cast him semi-early, then try to protect him (similar to Thresh)? Or has the versatility of playing the aggro-control role, then switching to pure control (24 turn wins) been paying off? I'd like to know what your testing has found.

Goyf/garruk is awesome. I've added 2 monasteries to my list and I am not disappointed. As far as playing goyf early his benefits are below:

1. He helps the burn matchup a ton.
2. If you have to mull to five he'll usually make a very very bad hand better.
3. Playing then protecting isn't hard, but this deck can afford to not protect him as you have multiple late game threats.

[holkenborg]

What does "ATW", "BHTW" stand for? :confused:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5460

Here is a topic about it.

[Burr]

Hey, whats a standard sideboard against today's meta game?

[Tacosnape]

Hey, whats a standard sideboard against today's meta game?

Assuming you're not running Cunning Wish, I'd select some of the following, based on your splashes.

Any Build:
Blue Elemental Blast / Hydroblast

White Splash:
Meddling Mage
Pulse of the Fields (Only in 3C or less)

Black Splash:
Engineered Plague
Extirpate

Green Splash:
Krosan Grip
Life From The Loam

My 4C Sideboard varies based on the evening. The standard 4C Sideboard is

4 Meddling Mage
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Engineered Plague
3 Extirpate (Can be 4 with 3 Plagues)

However, I prefer Krosan Grip to be in my board, so I run:

4 Meddling Mage
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Engineered Plague
2 Extirpate
2 Krosan Grip

I do, however, keep the 4th Plague, the other 2 Extirpates, and a couple of Life From The Loams around in preparation to alter the board based on what I expect to see in a given tournament.

[blac198990]

the sideboard really matters for your meta, but if your going blind, either run tacosnapes first list or us this one:


4 Meddling Mage
2 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Engineered Plague
4 Extirpate
2 krosan grip


this board helps with more of the threshold countertop sides.

[blac198990]

played in an 8 man tourny last night with my goystill. I took first with a 4 round then top 4 playoff situation.
First match was against Jon S. with his UBW countertop tombstalker deck. won both games with an early goyf, which him having countertop on board.
1-0 match 2-0 games
second match was against adam G with the deck I think called eva green(black with goyf splash, very very good deck). first game was won by garruk, second game won by double goyf.(was able to pull off stifle fetch/standstill first game)
2-0 match 4-0 games
third match was against brian W with goblins green splash
first game was garruk with deed ee crazy, second game was triple goyf beating down huge army of goyfs, oh and ee helped alot too.
3-0 match 6-0 games
last round was against jon P with astral slide deck. First game had to go down to 4 and still didnt see a land but kept a hand with 2 brainstorms and lost because didnt get a land till turn 3 and it was a factory. next 2 games owned with garruk.
4-0 match 8-1 games
playoffs I faced jon P again but this time, I didnt get a bad hand and won with garruk first game and then had a stand off with me having 3 goys then he dropped a loxodon heriarch every time I dropped a goyf, then he dropped a fourth. ehh this is when I topdecked an explosives (first time, I used it for 4)and swung in and won in 2 turns.

5-0 match 10-1 games
finals would have been against adam G, but we decided to split(like we always do) and play some EDH

I also did some testing against a very good meat hooks player, I won 4 out of 5 and the 5th game I didnt draw a single deed or EE which hurts when he had 2 vials in hand and a crystaline, with me only having 1 force.
playoffs I faced

[blac198990]

wow I guess no one likes landstill anymore. I played another tourny on friday and got 2nd out of a 14 man tourny, I played my normal list.

I beat a BWG stalker/grunt.dec, death and taxes.dec, goblins, and tied with atral slide(we decided to play edh instead) and in playoffs I beat RWGB aggro then lost to the slide deck(which I will explain below)

the first game went horrible just like last week with me mulluganing and still not getting a decent hand. second game I was able to drop goyfs early, and had a force for the wrath, but he was able to get a living wish off and get dustbowl and blow my lands, but the goyfs saved me. Third game, I was able to control game till about turn 8 with him playing living wish and bringing back dragon. I was able to get 2 goyfs out and 2 factories, and I had him at12 life, he played a dragon,(I knew he had a wrath in hand cuz of extripate) and he had dust bowl going. So I had to choose to either stop dragon and get him to 4 life or let it go and put him to 8 and leave him with a dragon and nothing for me(I had only 1 counter in hand) so I countered the dragon, and put him down to 4 and hoped for a counter on top, well it didnt show, and next turn I lost the goyfs and a factory, I swung in for 2 then he got that factory, and he eventually got all of my land and I lost. After this game and a couple of other close games where I had to go the third game where I should not have was because of 3 main cards.
volrath's stronghold
life from the loam
dustbowl

I have one of the cards covered with extripate. But the other 2 cards The only Ideas I have to beat them are either mainboard wastelands, but this would change the whole theory of my deck, or put in pithing needles in my sideboard, which is what I'm going to try to do and hopefully I dont plow my pithing needles up to much with deed.

this is the side I want to use for next week.

Sideboard:
4 extirpate
4 meddling mage
3 pithing needle
2 engineered plague
2 combination of engineered plague, BEB, krosan grip by the meta.

[diffy]

I just won the monthly Legacy event in Speyer (37 people) with my new UWb Landstill build and wanted to re-enforce my point about Tolaria West in UWb Landstill as it was amazing all day long.

I played against:

TES 2:0
MUC/b 2:1
Tempo *****/r 2:0
Faerie Stompy 2:1
UBw Aggro Control 2:0
NQG/w ID for secure first place for me and top4 for him

For reference, my list:



//// UWb Cunning Landstill

/// Mainboard (60 cards)

// Lands
4 Flooded Strand (http://magiccards.info/on/en/316.html)
2 Polluted Delta (http://magiccards.info/on/en/321.html)
4 Tundra (http://magiccards.info/be/en/300.html)
2 Underground Sea (http://magiccards.info/be/en/301.html)
1 Scrubland (http://magiccards.info/be/en/294.html)
2 Plains (http://magiccards.info/apac1/en/4.html)
2 Island (http://magiccards.info/apac3/en/2.html)
1 Tolaria West (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/173.html)
1 Academy Ruins (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/269.html)
1 Wasteland (http://magiccards.info/tp/en/340.html)
4 Mishra's Factory (http://magiccards.info/aq/en/67.html)

// Creatures
1 Eternal Dragon (http://magiccards.info/sc/en/12.html)

// Spells
4 Brainstorm (http://magiccards.info/mm/en/61.html)
4 Standstill (http://magiccards.info/od/en/102.html)
3 Cunning Wish (http://magiccards.info/ju/en/37.html)
4 Counterspell (http://magiccards.info/be/en/55.html)
4 Force of Will (http://magiccards.info/ai/en/42.html)
4 Swords to Plowshares (http://magiccards.info/ia/en/278.html)
3 Wrath of God (http://magiccards.info/po/en/202.html)
2 Humility (http://magiccards.info/tp/en/236.html)
3 Engineered Explosives (http://magiccards.info/5dn/en/118.html)
2 Decree of Justice (http://magiccards.info/sc/en/8.html)
2 Crucible of Worlds (http://magiccards.info/5dn/en/114.html)

/// Sideboard (15 cards)
4 Meddling Mage (http://magiccards.info/ps/en/116.html)
4 Engineered Plague (http://magiccards.info/ul/en/51.html)
3 Extirpate (http://magiccards.info/pc/en/71.html)
1 Slaughter Pact (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/78.html)
1 Pulse of the Fields (http://magiccards.info/ds/en/11.html)
1 Return to Dust (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/39.html)
1 Enlightened Tutor (http://magiccards.info/mr/en/218.html)


What really anoyed me all day long was Slaughter Pact for not being able to handle black creatures (Tombstalker, Dark Confidant, Shadowmage Infiltrator etc.). In theory he's very usefull against Magus of the Moon but I don't know if it wouldn't be better to replace it with something else like Diabolic Edict (http://magiccards.info/tp/en/22.html) or Condemn (http://magiccards.info/di/en/8.html). Any thoughts/suggestions?

I'll edit in a more detailed report later, but here some more points about Tolaria West:
It fetches you a Mishra's Factory for beatdown or defense (not to be underestimated and done numerous times today)
It fetches Academy Ruins for insane recursion with Engineered Explosives
It fetches Wasteland against combo or under Crucible
It fetches Engineered Explosives in any other situation
It is a freaking blue mana source
So the result really seconded my first impression that the land just is versatility deluxe at a mediocre price (cip tapped is not that bad as one may think as you nearly always have other lands and so can play it when you have enough mana available or when you don't have anything to do).
For me, it's going to stay!

Edit: A short report
After not having to go to one of those really sucky family thingies because of being sick and stuff I had no parents at home (tech!) and loads of free time over the weekend and so figured that I could actually play in the local event in 'Speyer' aka Haßloch something which I normally only seldomly do because I don't like the prizes and the appeal of small tournaments.
After something that seemed like an infintedly long drive we (Marius Laber, Stefan Spiritofthewretch Czolk, Manuel Heiler, Florin [random name I can't get myself to remember], Thomas Dörner, Harrald Herrlich and me) finally reached the location: a restaurant with an infintedly large back room where a total of 33 nerds gathered to spend their rest of the day in which allowed 6 rounds of swiss and prizes upon standings.

My weapon of choice: UWb Landstill chosen over Ichorid because its hated too much and over NQG/w because I wanted to prove you something :wink: .

Round 1 vs Stefan Czolk [spiritofthewretch] with TES

Great, first round and directly paired against a fellow guy from Karlsruhe.
I win the dice roll and don't do anything relevant for the first few turns appart from keeping Stefan low on mana by Explosiving 2 Chrome Moxen and by Wasting (fetched by Tolaria West) his only land. He recovers but I am able to defeat his first volley of assaults. I Cunnig Wish for Extirpate and remove his Infernal Tutors. After a while I get Mishra's Factory beatdown and counter another of his attempts at combo. After that I wish for another Extirpate and remove his Bruning Wishes. I cylce a decree shortly after to finish him off.

1:0

-3 Wrath of God
-2 Humility
-1 Swords to Plowshares
-2 Decree of Justice
-3 Cunning Wish
+3 Extirpate
+4 Engineered Plague
+4 Meddling Mage

I keep a mediocre hand and he leads with a Xantid Swarm from the sideboard but I have the Swords and a turn 2 Meddling Mage chanting Burning Wish. I get some beats going but then he casts a Tendrils for 10 buying him numerous turns. He then procedes to Pyroblast my Mage. I Extirpate the Pyroblast so that nothing can stop my infinted counters before I'm able to swing for the win.

2:0

1-0-0 (2:0)

Round 2 vs Marius Laber with MUC/b

My plan to avoid the people from Karlsruhe completely fizzled as soon as round 2... nice! and it's a bad matchup too!!
He wins the roll and we don't do a thing but trade counters and removal until he gets a Psychatog that gains him a lot of life thus recovering him from my Factory beatdown. I then somehow manage to have enough counters for his shit (Shackles, Back to Basics etc) until he's dead.

1:0

-3 Wrath of God
-1 Cunning Wish
-1 Humility
-1 Decree of Justice
+4 Meddling Mage
+2 Extirpate

After this first game my boarding was a little un-coordinated and all over the place but I just had no clue how his list could look like after seeing utility creatures (Shadowmage Infiltrator, Psychatog) in a traditional MUC shell.
My first play was a second turn Meddling Mage chanting Back to Basics which was awesome, until he Smothered him and droped one (countered) followed by a second one. A Tombstalker finishes me off quickly afterwards.

1:1

-1 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Humility

I get a Mage chanting Back to Basics and Extirpate a lot of his stuff (Explosives, Shackles). We trade Back to Basics and Explosives until I get a Crucible of Worlds and a Humility. I then transmute Tolaria West for a Mishra's Factory that gets the job done just on time... in the last extra turn.

2:1

2-0-0 (4:1)

Round 3 vs Daniel Scherer [Adan] with Ugr Tempo/Canadian *****

I had played this matchup from the other side (me playing NQG) on MWS some time ago and it didn't seem all like the cakewalk normal NQG is but still in your favour so that this test against a competent NQG player would be really interesting.
In the first game I bait some counters with removal, resolve a WoG that buys some time to find counterbackup for my Humiility that then wins the game, just that simple.

1:0

-3 Cunning Wish
+3 Extirpate

He takes a mulligan but gets some decent beats in a Nimble Mongoose (a counterwar over Tarmogoyf was won by me earlier) and burns me down to 9 lives when he makes the mistake to drop a second one that then gets WoG away as my Explosives was previously needled. I then Extirpate his Mongeese and procede to beat him up with 3 Factories. At that point I still have a Crucible of Worlds to bait his Krosan Grip to then resolve my Humility but I just didn't need it as I was in fullest control of the game his only out being to burn me for another 9 damage... this was in grave contrast to the MWS testing as I didn't have a single weak spot in any of the 2 games and just fisted him (as Landstill should do) - strange.

2:0

3-0-0 (6:1)

Round 4 vs Tobias Ball with Faerie Stomy

The first guy I face that I don't know personally!! Yey and cheers for that.
He's on the play and leads with a Sword of Fire and Ice which gets equiped onto a Cloud of Faeries on turn 2. He then procedes to beat me for 5 a turn until I find a white mana source for my Swords to Plowshares. I'm at 10 life at that point. I then play a Humility and it's only a matter of time until I get Engineered Explosives and Return to Dust to remove his equipment for my DoJ tokken and Factories to dominate the board.

1:0

I'm fascinated that he boards in 8-12 cards while I've got... nothing.

I mulligan once and he has another 1st turn SoFI. I drop a second turn Standstill and he responds with... PESTERMITE! which gets equiped and deals me a total of 12 damage until he plays an Umezawa's Jitte (wtf?) so that I don't have to crack my own Standstill to kill it. Nevertheless he has way too much gas and I don't get any solid removal. Also his Winter Orbs and Back to Basics are a real pain as they make countering stuff/ tapping out so much harder decisions.

1:1

He doesn't have any broken start and I completely dominate him from start to end drawing a shitton of cards via Standstill and Brainstorm and removing all his stuff with WoG, Swords and Explosives - doing what you're meant to do, second take, action.

2:1

4-0-0 (8-2)

Round 5 vs Alexander Verlohner with UBw Aggro Control

He doesn't do much aside from countering randomly my stuff but I am still able to get into the lategame and pick out his random threats (Tombstalker, Shadowmage Infiltrator) and get Crucible+Wasteland (fetched by Academy Ruins) going.

1:0

-3 Cunning Wish
+3 Extirpate

There's nothing much to say about this game except 2 notable situations the first being him Duressing me for a random card and then Extirpating the 2 Swords to Plowshares that he saw away from me. Following this he played a Shadowmage Inflitrator which I try to remove but he has a counter for my Engineered Explosives and my WoG in subsequent turns. The invitational card drew him 2 extra cards until I finally get rid of him. I then go onto the aggro mode, Extirpate his Forces and resolve a Humility ftw.

5-0-0 (10-2)

Round 6 vs Florin with NQG/w

He's 4-0-1 and drawing would mean that he's top4 for sure. He realizes that his matchup sucks and so agrees which makes me first. We then play out whether I have to give him a little something for drawing or not... obviously playing Highlander - the only real format.
I play a 5c Goodstuff control pile with some counters, removal, draw, Moat, Future Sight, Miraris Wake and a little combo with Palinchron (+ Stroke of Genious) alongside alot of tutors to respond to any sitation and to fetch the combo. He plays BWG Goodstuff Aggro Control also with a mini combo involving Yosei and ways to recur and sack him (Greater Good, Reccuring Nightmare, reanimation etc).

There's nothing much to say of the games as he crushes me with a nutty turn 5 Miraris Wake, turn 8 cycling DoJ for infinited and by Swordsing my Bringer of the Black Dawn that would have searched a solution.

0:1

Game 2 he gets his Greater Good engine going while I tapped out to play a Mindslaver. He recurs Yosei twice after drawing half his deck but then the following Slaver activation completely wreaks him.

1:1

In game 3 I go combo into his face on turn10 and there's nothing he could do about it because of counters and Moat - roar.

2:1

I'm in first and get to pick out of a pool of:
Foil German Wooded Foothills
Foil Pernicious Deed
Playset Orim's Chant
Underground Sea
Force of Will
Wooded Foothills
Polluted Delta
Windswepth Heat/list]

I take the Foil Foothills because I already own like 2 Orim's Chant and because they're harder to get and pimpier (doh).

The top8 was:
[list=1]Clemens Wolff (me) with UWb Cunning Landstill
Alexander Verlohner (unregged) with UBw Aggro Control
Daniel Scherer (Adan) with Tempo/Canadian NQG/r
Florin Ratajczak (unregged) with NQG/w
Fabian Moyschewitz (unregged) with Deadguy Ale
Jens Hoffmann (unregged) with 4c Landstill
Tobias Ball (unregged) with Faerie Stompy
Christian Schäfer (unregged) with NQ Eternal Garden

Lists and more info (german site) (http://www.magic-speyer.de/showthread.php?tid=22&pid=209#pid209)

Edit: But really, the location / restaurant sucks hardcore - don't eat their 5,50€ dish! I feel so sick right now that I actually migh not be able to attend school tomorow.

Edit n°2, 1.5h later: Taking that dish was such a fatal error.

[mossivo1986]

Hey great report. I really like 3c still, except for wrath of god. I just can't get over deed. It makes me sad, but why go for corn when you can have corn pudding. "goobers all over self."

hahaha

Anyways I think we need to seriously have a vote on this thread about wether t goyf is in landstill or not.

Personally I hate it. I think it's bad. But every 15 posts recently I see somebody saying it's soo necc. Bleh

[Jak]

Goyf seems out of place, but when you think about it, it really takes the deck to a different level. You are easily capable of being the control deck in games, Goyf allows you to put on a fast clock and turn into an aggressive deck to end the game quick when you need to. It is also removal. You play it and it owns the ground. It just makes the deck a more controlling thresh.

[thefreakaccident]

You could play tarmogoyf... or you could play humility, rape Tarmogoyf... and maker lots of 1/1s that will never be able to just get chump blocked...

Wrath is better in the meta currently, as creatures are seemingly the most important asset to decks these days... this is one of the strongest assets of Clemens' deck, as it rapes creatures all over the place.

I just took this deck (Clemens' exact list) to a 17ish man tourney this last saturday, and got second; going 2-0 against thresh, 2-0 against pikula, 2-0 against pox, 2-0 against dragon stompy, 0-2 against reanimator (I swear, whenever I play Rodrigo Gonzalez he gets a second turn Simic Sky Swollower and I do not have anything...).

The sideboard is kinda dead against my meta, but it works wonders against a more competative one.

[Berzerked]

You could play tarmogoyf... or you could play humility, rape Tarmogoyf... and maker lots of 1/1s that will never be able to just get chump blocked...

Ya...but Humility isn't a clock, and doesn't cost 1G. Humility is fine in those decks running heavy white & Wrath, but I don't like it as much along side Deed or the 4C manabase.

Concerning Goyf, it is ridiculous to have a vote weather or not a card should appear in a deck. If you like playing with the card, by all means, do. I personally, do.
It's not that hard to wrap your mind around why he's good. Let me tweek Freund's deck as an example. I personally play 4C, and this is sort of my thought process.

Switch around manabase to accommodate green
-1 Academy ruins
-1 Wasteland
+2 Nantuko Monestary (because I'm adding green, and he's a good threat. Plus, I don't like those one of lands that come around every once and a while, probably at some inopportune time)
-1 Eternal Dragon
+1 Life from the Loam (I usually use Dragon for early game mana smoothing, and a possible late game win. Loam does all that for cheaper, while protecting my lands from LD, and still recurs my threats. Or another land works. Possibly Garruk, I haven't tested him yet)
-3 Cunning Wish
+3 Fact or Fiction (I used to play heavily with Wish, but that was in the UWb version, and I haven't tested it in 4C alongside Goyf, though it would be interesting to do [Especially Tutor + Deed]. Fact is all around good)
-3 Wrath
+3 Deed (Duh.)
-2 Humility
+2 Stifle (I personally feel I have enough creature control, especially with Goyf outclassing the creatures I might choose to let resolve. Stifle is gold against combo)

Ok, the next changes are important:
-2 Crucible
-2 Decree
+4 Goyf (I don't do the whole Crucible lock thing since I realized it sucks. Crucible is supposed to ensure mana drops, recurr threats, and as an afterthought wastelock. Only problem is Wasteland loses me a lond drop when Crucible isn't around, doesn't necessarily even screw my opponent up much, and makes me more vulnerable to other Wastes and lack of UU. As far as mana drops and recurring, LftL does it better, for cheaper, and besides LD isn't that big of a deal when you have a Goyf or two in play. Decree acts as a late game threat, which you can do some cool tricks with, but I think Goyf is a better threat, and doesn't decrease the speed of my deck to that of an iceberg.
So, I'm replacing a threat and a useless card with a better threats, and not only that, but better utility in general.

That is basically my list then, and I've never had one complaint with it (well, except when my opponent goes turn1 Magus and I don't have a Fow...but who can complain about that..)

I'm planning on testing out various slots:
Stifle/Spell Snare (with -1 Counterspell for +3 Snare)
FoF/Wish
Stifle/Smother/Shriekmaw/Garruk
LftL/land/Garruk

[Mister Agent]

Humility may not be a clock but it sure makes your threshold matchup extremely better in my opinion. Besides humility provides an role of making your manlands and cycled decree of justices that much better but that is obvious. Humility also provides you with another incentive to drop standstill as well.

Also I really like your uwb landstill list Clemens it is definitely a great list. I am probably going to give the deck a spin tommorrow on mws just for fun.

[blac198990]

Humility may not be a clock but it sure makes your threshold matchup extremely better in my opinion. Besides humility provides an role of making your manlands and cycled decree of justices that much better but that is obvious. Humility also provides you with another incentive to drop standstill as well.

Also I really like your uwb landstill list Clemens it is definitely a great list. I am probably going to give the deck a spin tommorrow on mws just for fun.

yea humility is a great card against any creature deck..... but the card still costs 4, it still costs double white, and it still will get removed by krosen grip(which is in practically every threshold side) the card is great against threshold, if you can get it down, first game you might get it down if they are not expecting it, but threshold has more counters and can remove it without you doing anything about it,(unless you play morph:tongue: ) when I played the card, it was great against any deck that was aggro except threshold. which back then my meta had alot of red aggro decks, which now it has gone down some. The main reason I dont play humility because it doesn't kill anything or win the game, it just slows your opponent down. But I'm also a fan of the 4c build and having the best board sweeper in the game, the best creature in the game, the best single remover in the game, the best counterspell in the game, the best draw in the game,and the best planeswalker:tongue:


oh and also I can't ever listen to a person with clemens in the name(from an indians fan)

[mossivo1986]

I'm an extreme supporter of humility. Not only is it simply amazing against any kind of creature oriented decks, but it stops the real problem creatures in this format. For that matter it stops all creatures. But generally speaking:

Bob
goyf
mongoose
doran
meloku

ect. ect. The list goes on and on, but the bottom of the line is it's simply amazing.

When I resolve humilty in the mid-late game my winning percentage is around 75-80 percent. That makes it worth playing. Anything that gives you those kind of numbers and still has synergy with everything in your deck - maybe eternal dragon because of its tremendous cost to grab and cast it's deffinately worth it.

For the people talking about deed and humility combinations not working. Let me ask you this. Whens the last time you had to deed for 4+ mana? Frankly the only time I can see that happening is against random jank.dec. and frankly if you resolve a humility against say MUC all you have to do is sit back and let them cry or conceit immidiately. As all of their win conditons cost upwards of 4 mana.

Honestly the hype about goyf just doesn't seem worth it. I'm more afraid of something thats untargetable or has some serious evasion that I just don't have then I ever would be of a base creature. Especially with a combination of stp deed and humilty in a deck. Not to mention I also run wish as most people know by now and that can usually create more virtual card advantage than my opponent can possibly deal with.

I really wish I liked life from the loam better BTW, but honestly I just can't seem to get over ripping random cards from the top of your deck and hoping it's all land. Crucible brings consistency and keeps board position. Thats why it's good, thats why it's better in most case scenarios. Yes life from the loam does amazing things against random discard jank, but honestly a serious 4cstill build will be beating discard decks anyways.

[aTn]

Hi guys, I'm mostly a threshold player and I'm thinking about trying my hand at Landstill. I'd like to know your opinion on which build has the best Goblins match-up ? In general, what build (4c, UGb,UWb or UW) would suit best an aggo-control meta (Threshold, Deadguy) with a bit of Goblins, Goyf-Sligh, Affinity, Landstill and Belcher ? Right now I'm having a hard time deciding between 4c and UWb. The deciding factor being mostly Wrath vs. P. Deed and non-basic land hate.

Der_imaginäre_Freund, how does your build fare against Goblins pre-board ?

Thanks in advance.

[Mental]

I've actually found that UBg can be tuned to have a great Goblins MU. I just built the deck a few days back and have since gone something like 15-4 against Goblins preboard (not sure about Postboard yet, but I have Engineered Plague). In a goblins filled meta I would run UBg over Ubwg because it's less vulnerable to port/wasteland.
The key to the goblins MU is to deal with Lackey/Vial. If you can do this, you'll have no problems. In my build I run 4x Innocent Blood, 4x FoW, and 2 EE, so this isn't really a problem. Ringleader can also be annoying, but by the time he comes online you have Counterspell and the like to deal with him. Really, contrary to what most people say, I havn't found Goblins to be that hard. And once I get my playset of Goyfs, it should be even easier.

[blac198990]

Hi guys, I'm mostly a threshold player and I'm thinking about trying my hand at Landstill. I'd like to know your opinion on which build has the best Goblins match-up ? In general, what build (4c, UGb,UWb or UW) would suit best an aggo-control meta (Threshold, Deadguy) with a bit of Goblins, Goyf-Sligh, Affinity, Landstill and Belcher ? Right now I'm having a hard time deciding between 4c and UWb. The deciding factor being mostly Wrath vs. P. Deed and non-basic land hate.

Der_imaginäre_Freund, how does your build fare against Goblins pre-board ?

Thanks in advance.

even thou halve the people on here are really arrogent, goyfstill is the best version against goblins and threshold. and meta that runs affinity and belcher should run deed (which means 4c) P. deed is always better than wrath in every matchup, there are soo many things that deed hit that wrath doesnt.
vial(also if they try to vial anything in response, those still die)
countertop
all of affinity
alot easier to kill tokens
it will hit belcher, hits most of stax decks,
you can use ability at instant speed, which helps against goblins(you wait till their turn, force them to attack then blow which keeps them from dropping warchief and driver and still kill you.
it also blows animated lands.

For you, I would deffinitly go with goyfstill just because you have been playing with threshold for so long, you will have more of the aggressive side to play goyfstill right. If you don't believe me and go with the arrogent people on here that hate goyf, just go look at a bunch of the worlds players, almost all of them are playing goyf, If you live in america, play goyf, (it seems like only foreign players can play landstill without goyf and do well) can't really help you out on the land hate, I deffinitly think the deck needs it but I am having a hard time finding slots for it, and the biggest weakness for this deck are recursion lands such as dustbowl, volrath's stronghold and such. Which is why I am trying to find a way to put in wasteland, but right now I have sided with needle in side. On the other note, the deck does have great land denial opportunities, the best 2 turns this deck has are to stifle their first fetch then play standstill with you having 2 lands and them none.

[blac198990]

I've actually found that UBg can be tuned to have a great Goblins MU. I just built the deck a few days back and have since gone something like 15-4 against Goblins preboard (not sure about Postboard yet, but I have Engineered Plague). In a goblins filled meta I would run UBg over Ubwg because it's less vulnerable to port/wasteland.
The key to the goblins MU is to deal with Lackey/Vial. If you can do this, you'll have no problems. In my build I run 4x Innocent Blood, 4x FoW, and 2 EE, so this isn't really a problem. Ringleader can also be annoying, but by the time he comes online you have Counterspell and the like to deal with him. Really, contrary to what most people say, I havn't found Goblins to be that hard. And once I get my playset of Goyfs, it should be even easier.

I have heard this deck does have a good matchup but from what your talking bout do you not run deed? if you do then this deck would have a great matchup against goblins, my 4c build has gone 7-0 matches, 14-1 in games and the one game I lost was because of triple port and I Had a low land hand. And you are perfectly correct, goyfs make the matchup soo easy, the card forces goblins to over extend then you just blow board, tehy lose 5 goblins you lose 1 goyf, very good odds.

[Mordenkain]

Landstill have been getting my interest lately, since I want to have an alternative to my ichorid deck and I have 4 tundra lying around that i want to put to good use. So why not try some UW landstill i thought. I've been researching around for some time now and I've come to a decklist which I think is pretty neat. However I would love to see some other suggestions, only criteria I have is that I don't want to play 4c or UBG. UW, UWg or UWb is what I want. Enlightened tutor for random Moat madness have been a think I want to try out as well. Heres the UW decklist I have brewed together now:

//Wincons (9):
3 Hoofprint of the Stag
2 Decree of Justice
4 Mishra's Factory

//Permisson (8):
4 Force of will
4 Counterspell

//Removal (9):
1 Moat
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Wrath of God

//Dig (10):
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill

//Utility (10):
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Tolaria West
1 Academy Ruins
3 Wasteland

//Mana (14):
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
2 Island
2 Plains

//Total: 60

I like playing a bit more win cons since going to time have been a problem for some other local landstill players in my area. My meta is mostly composed of Threshold, some 4c Landstill, some random agro and next to no combo.

About the splashes I've considered black and green. Black for some more spot removal and plague/extirpate from sideboard as well as a singleton Planar Void to screw up ichorid and GY based decks with Enlightened Tutor.
The green splash I have considered as well, with Life from the Loam, Garruk Wildspeaker and Krosan Grip for the sideboard. However, I think that Crucible is Loam superior in Landstill and Garruk and Grip is not worth the splash alone imo. Of course I get Natuko manland as well, but Hoofprints and Decree (mirror tech as well. Personal testing have also showed that Thresh have a hard time dealing with it) should be enough beside factories.

Sideboard is unconsidered for now, but I imagine some number/configuration of Hydroblast, Seal of Cleansing and Tormod's Crypt with some silver bullets for Tutor like humility, CoP:Green, etc.

Comments please?

Regards
- Mordenkain

[aTn]

For you, I would deffinitly go with goyfstill just because you have been playing with threshold for so long, you will have more of the aggressive side to play goyfstill right.

Exactly the reasoning I had in mind. Thanks for your advice, it is very appreciated (and thanks to all the others who answered, it's appreciated also :)).


can't really help you out on the land hate, I deffinitly think the deck needs it but I am having a hard time finding slots for it

What I meant is that 4c has obviously a harder time against mana-denial (but I guess Stifle on Wasteland helps a bit).

Before making changes to a deck, I tend to test the hell out of a net-decked list and then modify it. Right now, my reference list (for 4c Landstill) is Antonino de Rosa's Worlds list. In your opinion, is there a more recent or 'better' list ? ('you' being directed at any reader).

[blac198990]

Exactly the reasoning I had in mind. Thanks for your advice, it is very appreciated (and thanks to all the others who answered, it's appreciated also :)).



What I meant is that 4c has obviously a harder time against mana-denial (but I guess Stifle on Wasteland helps a bit).

Before making changes to a deck, I tend to test the hell out of a net-decked list and then modify it. Right now, my reference list (for 4c Landstill) is Antonino de Rosa's Worlds list. In your opinion, is there a more recent or 'better' list ? ('you' being directed at any reader).

ahhh well if you put it that way, the only true mana denial that hurts you is port. Wasteland is stopped with stifle and the fact that you run more land than every other deck(cept 42.dec), stuff such as pox and armaggedon and sinkhole, you just need to watch out for them and keep counters. But I also am adding needle into the board to stop port and dust bowl and such.

Rosa's deck is a great deck to start with, his list is usually what people base their list on, the only thing I dont like with his list is adding wasteland lock, which I don't think is needed when ther are alot more powerful cards, but thats me I have played with crucible and loved it but since I have added goyf I have not wanted it(but as I said that is me,you should try it out for yourself thou.) here is my list which is really close to his but it is abusing the best planeswalker int eh game.(which the card is nutz in landstill)

land:
4 mishra's factory
4 tropical island
4 underground sea
3 tundra
4 flooded strand
3 polluted delta
1 breeding pool(only needed if you run garruk, if not I would prob add a basic)

creature:
4 tarmogoyf

planeswalker:
2 garruk wildspeaker

draw:
4 standstill
4 brainstorm
2 fact or fiction

counter:
4 force of will
4 counterspell
3 stifle

removal:
4 pernicious deed
4 swords to plowshares
2 engineered explosives

sideboard:
4 meddling mage
4 extirpate
2 engineered plague
3 pithing needle
2 any combination of krosan grip/engineered plague,needle, BEB matters on meta.(prob grip for countertop.)

[Van Phanel]

The key to the goblins MU is to deal with Lackey/Vial. If you can do this, you'll have no problems.

I can't agree with that.

It is absolutely necessary to deal with both Lackey and Vial, that is correct. But just that won't win the game for you at all. You still have to have an answer for every single Ringleader they have while also being required to have massremoval for every Siege-Gang (Deed for 5?! Thank you). Plus you have to be able to play under manadenial. Add Hooligans in the Goblindeck in case you rely on either Explosives 1 on the draw or Crucible to get out of their manadenial and your matchup won't be good anymore.

That said Landstill can indeed be tuned to have a good matchup against Goblins. This could be done by playing more Humilities, Goyfs and/or more basics (the basics aren't adviseable in 4-color obviously). I can't think of anything else maindeckable at the moment at all. However all of those cards have disadvantages as well. Humility is clunky with its 2WW-cost and Ports can keep you from the WW. Goyfs make their sorcery-speed removal more relevant (and I'd rather prepare for Warren Weirding in Goblins in the very near future) More Basiclands make it harder to reach both WW and UU. Sure, those cards do improve the Goblin-matchup, however I can't believe that the improvent turns the matchup from slightly negative to nearly unlosable.


P. deed is always better than wrath in every matchup, there are soo many things that deed hit that wrath doesnt.

It is not a good thing to use such a generalization under any circumstance (ever).

Wrath can't be Needled, Stifled or Krosan gripped. Neither does it need another turn for you to ativate it. It just does it's job. Now. You can't quite compare two cards that are clearly the best at what they do (Damnation aside), when they do different things. Deed is more vulnerable than Wrath where Wrath is more narrow. I wouldn't go that far and say one is clearly better than the other.

@aTn: I agree with blac here, if you are a Treshholdplayer, Landstill with Tarmogoyfs (I sure won't call it "Goyfstill") will suit you best as you should be able to switch between aggro and control when you have to. I personally don't like Goyfs in Landstill, but that shouldn't stop anyone else from using them.

- Van

[Mental]

I have heard this deck does have a good matchup but from what your talking bout do you not run deed? if you do then this deck would have a great matchup against goblins, my 4c build has gone 7-0 matches, 14-1 in games and the one game I lost was because of triple port and I Had a low land hand. And you are perfectly correct, goyfs make the matchup soo easy, the card forces goblins to over extend then you just blow board, tehy lose 5 goblins you lose 1 goyf, very good odds.

I run 4x Deed and 4x Innocent Blood (Which won't be in my list once I get Goyfs) and I crush Gobbos. Here's my list, for reference (once I get the Goyfs).

4x Mishra's Factory
4x Flooded Strand
2x Polluted Delta
3x Tropical Island
3x Underground Sea
3x Island
3x Wasteland
2x Academy Ruins
1x Mutavault
1x Faerie Conclave

4x Tarmogoyf (4x Innocent Blood)

4x Standstill
4x Force of Will
4x Counterspell
4x Pernicious Deed
4x Brainstorm
2x Crucible of Worlds
2x Engineered Explosives
2x Smother (2x Garruk)
2x Vedalken Shackles
2x Fact or Fiction

SB:
4x Engineered Plague
4x Leyline of the Void
3x Krosan Grip
4x Hydroblast

I think that the loss of Innocent Blood will hurt the Goblin MU a bit but the it will still be extremely positive.

This list has good MUs vs Threshold (though not Red Thresh with 4x Stifle/Waste), I go about 50/50 vs. TES (though I play TES myself so that helps me beat it). So I'm pretty happy with it.

Personally I hate Ugbw Landstill. The deck seems so clunky and easily disrupted; it is much worse against any sort of deck with manadenial and is so much more reactive than landstill should be. It's very hard to slowroll people with Ugbw landstill, due to mana constraints. Ubg does nearly everything Ugbw landstill does with much more consistency.


I can't agree with that.

It is absolutely necessary to deal with both Lackey and Vial, that is correct. But just that won't win the game for you at all. You still have to have an answer for every single Ringleader they have while also being required to have massremoval for every Siege-Gang (Deed for 5?! Thank you). Plus you have to be able to play under manadenial. Add Hooligans in the Goblindeck in case you rely on either Explosives 1 on the draw or Crucible to get out of their manadenial and your matchup won't be good anymore.

Deed at 5? Hell yes. By the time they play SGC, you can easily Deed at 5 if you've dealt with Lackey/Vial. You don't need to answer every Ringleader, just the threats they drop with it. Their manadenial is only effective the first few turns, but it won't mean much unless they have an active alternate mana source, such as Lackey/Vial (which you deal with). This MU is always positive.


That said Landstill can indeed be tuned to have a good matchup against Goblins. This could be done by playing more Humilities, Goyfs and/or more basics (the basics aren't adviseable in 4-color obviously). I can't think of anything else maindeckable at the moment at all. However all of those cards have disadvantages as well. Humility is clunky with its 2WW-cost and Ports can keep you from the WW. Goyfs make their sorcery-speed removal more relevant (and I'd rather prepare for Warren Weirding in Goblins in the very near future) More Basiclands make it harder to reach both WW and UU. Sure, those cards do improve the Goblin-matchup, however I can't believe that the improvent turns the matchup from slightly negative to nearly unlosable.

I didn't say it's unlosable, just positive. I did lose a good number of games when I couldn't stop Lackey/Vial. However, think about it: You have Shackles, Deed, EE, FoW, Counterspell, and Mishra's Factory as removal. You have an asston of Card Advantage. All your men are bigger. Postboard, you bring in 11 cards for them (Hydroblast, Grip, and Engineered Plague). You can easily outplay goblins. I would say that even untuned UBg landstill can fight gobbos, and go around 50/50.

Also, about some of your other points: In a vacuum Deed is almost strictly better than Wrath because it can hit Counterbalance, Vial, etc. Sure it can be needled, but against an active Vial Wrath won't save you anyway.

[holkenborg]

You are right. I myself make the difference between the Landstill variant with Pernicious Deed (UBGW or UBG or whatever) and the toolbox variant with Enlightened Tutors (UW or UWg). I tried to re-open a topic about the toolbox variant, because I didn't want to post my list here (it would be a parallel discussion and become messy). But.. that topic got a lock, because there already was a Landstill topic, this one.. So I'm afraid you'll have to post everything about any variant in this topic.

[Citrus-God]

You are right. I myself make the difference between the Landstill variant with Pernicious Deed (UBGW or UBG or whatever) and the toolbox variant with Enlightened Tutors (UW or UWg). I tried to re-open a topic about the toolbox variant, because I didn't want to post my list here (it would be a parallel discussion and become messy). But.. that topic got a lock, because there already was a Landstill topic, this one.. So I'm afraid you'll have to post everything about any variant in this topic.

The toolbox version had some dead cards meanwhile the non-toolbox version just has tons of multi purpose cards like Deed, EE, and Counters while draw just keeps finding them for you to keep winning attrition wars.

The toolbox version has cards that can potentially win you the game right there since it can be the right answer but has worse combo match-ups unless it's Zvi's crazy landstill. The non-toolbox version can 50/50-65/35 MUs all over the place.

Personally both are pretty viable and has some pros/cons to it. I still think Landstill of any form depends on the meta. If my metagame is Thresh and Goblin heavy, I'd go for the overall build. If it's a one-sided metagame without much variety, I'd go for Toolbox one.

[Ch@os]

... but has worse combo match-ups unless it's Zvi's crazy landstill.


Sry, but what is so crazy about Zvi's list at the Worlds? Probably change "Eternal Dragon" against "Hoofprints".