[ATW] Landstill

[mossivo1986]

Hoofprints:

Negatives
-Ultra slow without brainstorm/ standstill breaks
-Mediocre pressure as it forces you to tap out ATLEAST twice during your own mainphase to get it online "once to cast, once to activate."
- Combo just laughs because it's soo slow. "Then they get beat lol"

Positives
- Per say inevitability
- 4/4 flyers are major beaters in Legacy
- Can become a real pain if you get multiple standstills/ brainstorms quickly.


Anything else?

[Nightmare]

Hoofprints:

Negatives
-Ultra slow without brainstorm/ standstill breaks
You're playing control. You don't care if your win conditions are slow. For god's sake, you run Mishra's Factory as your primary win condition.

-Mediocre pressure as it forces you to tap out ATLEAST twice during your own mainphase to get it online "once to cast, once to activate."
It's not a turn 2 play, and you would never activate it turn three, nor could you. Why would you be tapping out for either situation?

- Combo just laughs because it's soo slow. "Then they get beat lol"
Is Landstill having a hard time beating Combo nowadays?

[Bardo]

Discussion of having multiple Landstill threads cut and moved to the Adept Lounge for discussion.

[mossivo1986]

KK Thanks let us know.

[galeng]

I'm having an awkward time consistantly beating 43 land (loam). I'm looking for an acceptable sideboard plan. My sideboard:

4 Leyline of the Void
3 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Hydroblast
1 Extirpate
1 Krosan Grip
1 Tsabo's Decree
1 Dissipate
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Diabolic Edict

What really bothering me is what to take out for leylines. What really is the most "dead" card against them? My list:

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Stifle

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Fact or Fiction

4 Pernicious Deed
4 Swords to Plowshares

2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Cunning Wish

4 Mishra's Factory
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
3 Wasteland
3 Nantuko Monastery
1 Island

Thanks for any input.

[Mental]

I'm having an awkward time consistantly beating 43 land (loam). I'm looking for an acceptable sideboard plan. My sideboard:

4 Leyline of the Void
3 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Hydroblast
1 Extirpate
1 Krosan Grip
1 Tsabo's Decree
1 Dissipate
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Diabolic Edict

What really bothering me is what to take out for leylines. What really is the most "dead" card against them? My list:

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Stifle

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Fact or Fiction

4 Pernicious Deed
4 Swords to Plowshares

2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Cunning Wish

4 Mishra's Factory
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
3 Wasteland
3 Nantuko Monastery
1 Island

Thanks for any input.

Sorry Galen, it's unlikely you're going to be able to beat 43.lands no matter what changes you make to the MD. Really, one kid plays it on occasion, you shouldn't worry too much about it. It's going to steamroll everything but combo - just let it be.
BTW 3 Nantuko Monastery seems like too much. How's cunning wish been treating you in UGWB?

EDIT - Standstill seems week against 43.lands, side that out.

[Nihil Credo]

In a nutshell:

1) Landstill is a slow deck. A slow deck makes much better use of 4 Extirpate than of Leyline as graveyard hate. Replace those immediately (this is not just for the 43L matchup: lots of other stuff like the mirror will benefit from this).

2) Even with Loam recursion disabled, 43 Lands can still destroy your manabase and rape its corpse - this is why it's considered 4C Landstill's nightmare matchup. Pithing Needles help a lot, but they don't have much use as a SB options. Meddling Mages are less effective, but more versatile.
(Either way, you should cut Decree and Dissipate from your Wishboard, since they're vastly inefficient.)

3) Maindecking Tombstalker as a finisher is a great way to improve difficult matchups like this one. Their only out is having more Mazes of Ith than you have Wastelands.

[Mental]

In a nutshell:

1) Landstill is a slow deck. A slow deck makes much better use of 4 Extirpate than of Leyline as graveyard hate. Replace those immediately (this is not just for the 43L matchup: lots of other stuff like the mirror will benefit from this).

2) Even with Loam recursion disabled, 43 Lands can still destroy your manabase and rape its corpse - this is why it's considered 4C Landstill's nightmare matchup. Pithing Needles help a lot, but they don't have much use as a SB options. Meddling Mages are less effective, but more versatile.
(Either way, you should cut Decree and Dissipate from your Wishboard, since they're vastly inefficient.)

3) Maindecking Tombstalker as a finisher is a great way to improve difficult matchups like this one. Their only out is having more Mazes of Ith than you have Wastelands.

Loam + Maze of Ith rapes Tombstalker, so that plan only works post SB when you have Extirpate.

[Nihil Credo]

Yes, either that or if you're lucky and they don't get a Maze in G1 (Galeng runs Cunning Wish, so he has access to Extirpate maindeck, btw).

My point, confirmed through experience, was that Lands! has a lot of a harder time dealing with a Tombstalker than with a Nantuko Monastery.

[Mental]

Yes, either that or if you're lucky and they don't get a Maze in G1 (Galeng runs Cunning Wish, so he has access to Extirpate maindeck, btw).

My point, confirmed through experience, was that Lands! has a lot of a harder time dealing with a Tombstalker than with a Nantuko Monastery.

Well duh, because they can't trade. However, you're going to have a bad MU regardless of what you try. That's my experience. You should be focusing on improving winnable MUs instead and not playing this deck in a meta where everyone can shell out for a Tabernacle.

[blac198990]

Even though no one will listen to me because I play goyf, extirpate on loams really helps, you side out the facts first then stanstills, personally I don't lose this matchup since I can bring out goyf second turn and swing by third(unlike tombstalker) and garruk owns 43 land.dec. The only true way to beat this deck is to go aggro on them, only stifling teh wastes to keep your manabase stable, counter the loams and go aggro, and since my build is the only one that can do that, yes everyone else this matchup is instant loss first game, and hope to god you draw sideboard second.

Deed and explosives are good in this matchup specially first game, drop them in play(explosives for 0) and you can keep them from attacking for a while.

As long as I keep them from loaming like a bitch, I don't lose, you have more powerful cards all around, but they win by recursion, extirpate helps thato.


on another note, I just played a tourny last night and went 3-0-1 in swiss and 2-0 in playoffs to take first.
beat, jank.dec, black with goyf splash, red aggro, tied slide(ran out of time)
playoffs, beat slide, and then the same red aggro deck.

Hopefully I can get to the friday tournys since they have more to 15-20 people instead of the lonely 8-12, so I can get a better feel about the meta.(literelly no thresh in meta. but adam is planning on goin back to it for next week)

[Tacosnape]

I'm having an awkward time consistantly beating 43 land (loam). I'm looking for an acceptable sideboard plan.

I advise you to take the loss. Seriously. Virtually nobody plays 43 Land.

However, if your heart is set on beating it, there's a way. Run Stifle/Extirpate to stop Wasteland, then bring in Quagnoth. Resolve Quagnoth on turn six at all costs as the longer things go, the worse they get. Use your Swords to Plowshares and Deeds to take out any possible gangblocks or power swings, and smash face for the win.

Also, in UBG builds (IE, ones with Wasteland), Garruk is a decent option for keeping things reasonable. You have to be able to get rid of The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, however, which is easier said than done, and very often 43 Land will simply drop more threats than Garruk can create blockers for.

[HSCK]

Even though no one will listen to me because I play goyf, extirpate on loams really helps, you side out the facts first then stanstills, personally I don't lose this matchup since I can bring out goyf second turn and swing by third(unlike tombstalker) and garruk owns 43 land.dec. The only true way to beat this deck is to go aggro on them, only stifling teh wastes to keep your manabase stable, counter the loams and go aggro, and since my build is the only one that can do that, yes everyone else this matchup is instant loss first game, and hope to god you draw sideboard second.

Deed and explosives are good in this matchup specially first game, drop them in play(explosives for 0) and you can keep them from attacking for a while.

As long as I keep them from loaming like a bitch, I don't lose, you have more powerful cards all around, but they win by recursion, extirpate helps thato.


on another note, I just played a tourny last night and went 3-0-1 in swiss and 2-0 in playoffs to take first.
beat, jank.dec, black with goyf splash, red aggro, tied slide(ran out of time)
playoffs, beat slide, and then the same red aggro deck.

Hopefully I can get to the friday tournys since they have more to 15-20 people instead of the lonely 8-12, so I can get a better feel about the meta.(literelly no thresh in meta. but adam is planning on goin back to it for next week)



Wait wait wait, going aggro with 4 creatures and slower counterspells than Threshold beats a deck that is utterly dedicated to mauling Threshold and other creature based decks? Tabernacle, Maze of Ith, Ports, and Wastelands all shut down the mighty 4 Goyfs and your lands while you try to battle with a couple Stifles and a couple Extirpate.

[Van Phanel]

Deed and explosives are good in this matchup specially first game, drop them in play(explosives for 0) and you can keep them from attacking for a while.

You are aware of the fact that Explosives/0 don't do anything against lands as in "destroy all nonland permanents?


Sure you can win against 43-lands with a lucky start and fast Garruk here and there, but generally it is better to just ignore the deck (as close to nobody plays it) or hope it gets destroyed by combo which in turn gets destroyed by you.

[mossivo1986]

In the list I play:

// Lands
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [UNH] Plains
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [B] Tundra
2 [B] Underground Sea
2 [B] Tropical Island
1 [B] Scrubland
1 [B] Savannah
1 [UNH] Island
1 [TE] Wasteland
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins

// Creatures
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
4 [IA] Brainstorm
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
4 [IA] Counterspell
2 [TE] Humility
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [OD] Standstill
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
2 [DIS] Stifle
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [IN] Dismantling Blow
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [IN] Fact or Fiction
SB: 1 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [IA] Hydroblast

Against 43land.dec my matchup is exceptionally worse then most landstill variants. Humility is completely dead, I run -1 deed and ee basicly just gets the one drop enchantmant which is the best turn one play I have. I basicly hope I get stifle/ cunning wish in my opener to stop rapid wastelands. Then I follow it up with an extirpate asap then I go for the long game hoping to survive through the manland rush. g2 is alot easier because I side humilities and standstills along with 2 ofsomething else for Meddlng mage/ extirpate.

[diffy]

2 Stifle


How have these been treating you?
I did never like them while testing and refining our list and cut them pretty quickly for another land (fetchie) and Pernicious Deed n°4.
I can see how people might argue that they protect the manabase from Wastelands but its not that hard to play around non-recursive land hate, you just have to be used to it.



2 Crucible of Worlds


I think that a 1-1 split between this and Life from the Loam is apropriate in versions running green as LftL is better in the earlygame and helps you hit landdrops from turn2 onwards.
It surely is weaker under Standstill but I like it for timewalking into the mid-game by assuring you the next 1-3 land drops which is very strong, especially against decks like Suicide Black that attack your manabase early on.



1 Fact or Fiction


I also really don't like this wishboard slot. Cunning Wish is just too precious and flexible a tool that you would want to 'waste' it on the ultra-clunky Fact or Fiction / random card advantage slot.
Also, Wish -> FoF is just soo painfully slow that I have almost never done it in playtesting.
I agree that one could want a non-answer, proactive wishtarget but I have since found a better one: Enlightened Tutor. It is pro-active fetching Crucible of Worlds or Humility but is also a solution fetching Pernicious Deed and Engineered Explosives.

Suggested 4c Cunning Landstill list:


/// Maindeck (60 cards)

// Lands
4 Flooded Strand (http://magiccards.info/on/en/316.html)
2 Polluted Delta (http://magiccards.info/on/en/321.html)
1 Windswept Heath (http://magiccards.info/on/en/328.html)
4 Tundra (http://magiccards.info/be/en/300.html)
2 Underground Sea (http://magiccards.info/be/en/301.html)
2 Tropical Island (http://magiccards.info/be/en/299.html)
1 Scrubland (http://magiccards.info/be/en/294.html)
1 Savannah (http://magiccards.info/be/en/293.html)
1 Plains (http://magiccards.info/apac1/en/4.html)
1 Island (http://magiccards.info/apac3/en/2.html)
4 Mishra's Factory (http://magiccards.info/aq/en/67.html)
1 Academy Ruins (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/269.html)
1 Wasteland (http://magiccards.info/tp/en/340.html)

// Winconditions
1 Eternal Dragon (http://magiccards.info/sc/en/12.html)
2 Decree of Justice (http://magiccards.info/sc/en/8.html)

// Permission
4 Counterspell (http://magiccards.info/be/en/55.html)
4 Force of Will (http://magiccards.info/ai/en/42.html)

// Card Advantage
4 Brainstorm (http://magiccards.info/mm/en/61.html)
4 Standstill (http://magiccards.info/od/en/102.html)

// Utility
1 Life from the Loam (http://magiccards.info/rav/en/172.html)
1 Crucible of Worlds (http://magiccards.info/5dn/en/114.html)
2 Cunning Wish (http://magiccards.info/ju/en/37.html)

// Removal
4 Swords to Plowshares (http://magiccards.info/ia/en/278.html)
2 Engineered Explosives (http://magiccards.info/5dn/en/118.html)
4 Pernicious Deed (http://magiccards.info/ap/en/114.html)
2 Humility (http://magiccards.info/tp/en/236.html)

/// Sideboard (15 cards)
4 Engineered Plague (http://magiccards.info/ul/en/51.html)
4 Meddling Mage (http://magiccards.info/ps/en/116.html)
3 Extirpate (http://magiccards.info/pc/en/71.html)
1 Dismantling Blow (http://magiccards.info/in/en/14.html)
1 Pulse of the Fields (http://magiccards.info/ds/en/11.html)
1 Slaughter Pact (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/78.html)
1 Enlightened Tutor (http://magiccards.info/mr/en/218.html)


In comparision to the UWb List, this is basically
-3 Wrath of God
-1 Engineered Explosives
-1 Cunning Wish
+4 Pernicious Deed
+1 Land
With a modified manabase obviously.

Running less Cunning Wishes is totally acceptable as you have Pernicious Deed to also take care of non-creatures (main role of Wish appart from fetching Extirpate).
The wishboard Pulse of the Fields is totally sustainable because of tthis list generally being more white focused and running more white duals.



43lands matchup


Seriously, there is no way that you can win this matchup but to get a quick Crucible+Wastelock and a solution to Life from the Loam which is quite improbable, but nobody plays that deck either ways so you can just ignore it.
The main problem here is not the recursion (which you can stop quite easily via Extirpate and Meddling Mage) but the manland beatdown (you removal but Swords and in 4c Deed becomes useless) paired with mana denial componente.

Edit: Also, seriously people, there has to be something better than Slaughter Pact...

[blac198990]

You are aware of the fact that Explosives/0 don't do anything against lands as in "destroy all nonland permanents?


Sure you can win against 43-lands with a lucky start and fast Garruk here and there, but generally it is better to just ignore the deck (as close to nobody plays it) or hope it gets destroyed by combo which in turn gets destroyed by you.
After reading the card I just noticed that, I havn't played against a 42 land.dec since I have added explosives, so I never came up, I'm just used to deed specifying, just figured explosives did that same.

HSCK stupid posts like yours are the main reason that this thread is turrning into $h!t. You come on here with 10 posts and critize a person just because you are a horrible magic player. All your doing is making the rest of the landstill players in here look bad, how do you think the rest of hte magic community thinks of this site, if people like you destroy good ideas when the pro players are doing the same thing..... mmm I wonder who they are going to listen to, the worlds players or a person that has only posted 10 posts and this is practically your first in this thread, great way to start.

Warning issued for flaming. Keep it civil. Attack the ideas, not the person.

BTW, this is your 3rd warning out of 55 posts. 3 Warnings are a site ban. Bye.

-PR


Now to everyone else who has actually played landstill, I must have just gotten alot of luck or sumthing but I havn't had that much problem with 42 land.dec, but before I went to this goy build(I played the BHWC landstill before) But as taco pointed out, just take the loss, one loss shouldnt put you out of second day or playoffs. I usually start the first game and if it looked ugly I wouldn't even wait for him to kill me, and after second game halve the time, I would scoop early when it got ugly to go get something to eat before next match (or to play EDH)

[Tacosnape]

Wait wait wait, going aggro with 4 creatures and slower counterspells than Threshold beats a deck that is utterly dedicated to mauling Threshold and other creature based decks? Tabernacle, Maze of Ith, Ports, and Wastelands all shut down the mighty 4 Goyfs and your lands while you try to battle with a couple Stifles and a couple Extirpate.

For what it's worth, HSCK is right. 43 Land still demolishes Tarmogoyf Landstill like any others. While Blac's point about Goyfstill having a better matchup against 43 Land is technically true, it's a statement equivalent to saying it's easier to jump across the English Channel than the Atlantic Ocean. 43 Land still wins. Fatality.

Seriously, though? If you know you're going to face it once and don't want to take the loss, Quagnoth is the best bet for green-packing builds, as their entire deck can't deal with it in the slightest. Just use all your removal to stop their manlands long enough for Quagnoth to go a-wassailing on their face. You're still not going to break .500 doing this, though.

[Nihil Credo]

Quagnoth is the best bet for green-packing builds, as their entire deck can't deal with it in the slightest.
Any two of their manlands can trade with Quagnoth. You may be able to kill them, but it's incorrect to say that 43lands can't deal with a Quagnoth.

I think Tombstalker comes off as slightly better. It's more difficult to block (Maze of Ith being the only answer), and it does not require six mana to cast.

Quagnoth does force them to lose a manland on each attack. So does any 4/5 or bigger, though.

[mossivo1986]

How have these been treating you?
I did never like them while testing and refining our list and cut them pretty quickly for another land (fetchie) and Pernicious Deed n°4.
I can see how people might argue that they protect the manabase from Wastelands but its not that hard to play around non-recursive land hate, you just have to be used to it.



I think that a 1-1 split between this and Life from the Loam is apropriate in versions running green as LftL is better in the earlygame and helps you hit landdrops from turn2 onwards.
It surely is weaker under Standstill but I like it for timewalking into the mid-game by assuring you the next 1-3 land drops which is very strong, especially against decks like Suicide Black that attack your manabase early on.



I also really don't like this wishboard slot. Cunning Wish is just too precious and flexible a tool that you would want to 'waste' it on the ultra-clunky Fact or Fiction / random card advantage slot.
Also, Wish -> FoF is just soo painfully slow that I have almost never done it in playtesting.
I agree that one could want a non-answer, proactive wishtarget but I have since found a better one: Enlightened Tutor. It is pro-active fetching Crucible of Worlds or Humility but is also a solution fetching Pernicious Deed and Engineered Explosives.

Suggested 4c Cunning Landstill list:


/// Maindeck (60 cards)

// Lands
4 Flooded Strand (http://magiccards.info/on/en/316.html)
2 Polluted Delta (http://magiccards.info/on/en/321.html)
1 Windswept Heath (http://magiccards.info/on/en/328.html)
4 Tundra (http://magiccards.info/be/en/300.html)
2 Underground Sea (http://magiccards.info/be/en/301.html)
2 Tropical Island (http://magiccards.info/be/en/299.html)
1 Scrubland (http://magiccards.info/be/en/294.html)
1 Savannah (http://magiccards.info/be/en/293.html)
1 Plains (http://magiccards.info/apac1/en/4.html)
1 Island (http://magiccards.info/apac3/en/2.html)
4 Mishra's Factory (http://magiccards.info/aq/en/67.html)
1 Academy Ruins (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/269.html)
1 Wasteland (http://magiccards.info/tp/en/340.html)

// Winconditions
1 Eternal Dragon (http://magiccards.info/sc/en/12.html)
2 Decree of Justice (http://magiccards.info/sc/en/8.html)

// Permission
4 Counterspell (http://magiccards.info/be/en/55.html)
4 Force of Will (http://magiccards.info/ai/en/42.html)

// Card Advantage
4 Brainstorm (http://magiccards.info/mm/en/61.html)
4 Standstill (http://magiccards.info/od/en/102.html)

// Utility
1 Life from the Loam (http://magiccards.info/rav/en/172.html)
1 Crucible of Worlds (http://magiccards.info/5dn/en/114.html)
2 Cunning Wish (http://magiccards.info/ju/en/37.html)

// Removal
4 Swords to Plowshares (http://magiccards.info/ia/en/278.html)
2 Engineered Explosives (http://magiccards.info/5dn/en/118.html)
4 Pernicious Deed (http://magiccards.info/ap/en/114.html)
2 Humility (http://magiccards.info/tp/en/236.html)

/// Sideboard (15 cards)
4 Engineered Plague (http://magiccards.info/ul/en/51.html)
4 Meddling Mage (http://magiccards.info/ps/en/116.html)
3 Extirpate (http://magiccards.info/pc/en/71.html)
1 Dismantling Blow (http://magiccards.info/in/en/14.html)
1 Pulse of the Fields (http://magiccards.info/ds/en/11.html)
1 Slaughter Pact (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/78.html)
1 Enlightened Tutor (http://magiccards.info/mr/en/218.html)


In comparision to the UWb List, this is basically
-3 Wrath of God
-1 Engineered Explosives
-1 Cunning Wish
+4 Pernicious Deed
+1 Land
With a modified manabase obviously.

Running less Cunning Wishes is totally acceptable as you have Pernicious Deed to also take care of non-creatures (main role of Wish appart from fetching Extirpate).
The wishboard Pulse of the Fields is totally sustainable because of tthis list generally being more white focused and running more white duals.



Seriously, there is no way that you can win this matchup but to get a quick Crucible+Wastelock and a solution to Life from the Loam which is quite improbable, but nobody plays that deck either ways so you can just ignore it.
The main problem here is not the recursion (which you can stop quite easily via Extirpate and Meddling Mage) but the manland beatdown (you removal but Swords and in 4c Deed becomes useless) paired with mana denial componente.

Edit: Also, seriously people, there has to be something better than Slaughter Pact...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Der_imaginäre_Freund:

In regards to wish board here is my opinion:

If I get a wish I cast it. Most games it does something. If I know theres nothing viable to grab other then maybe Extirpate, then I will probobly go for that, but usually wether it be aggro or control theres usually something.

As for the 1 of FOF it is alittle clunky but priceless in card advantage. I don't like Enlightened Tutor in the side as its basicly saying pay four mana put something on top of your deck. I'd rather have pay 7 draw 2 cards that are answers. The same goes for dismantling blow vs Return to dust. I'd rather have the option to sink mana into it vs a more then likely mainphase spell.

I don't agree with the LFTL statement. The split to me Before I test this looks like your trying to slightly improve your discard matchup. I don't like the idea but im willing to give it a shot. Especially if it makes the opponent randomly extirpate the LFTL out of your deck. It sounds interesting but we will see in testing I guess. Anyways Ill let you know about my results.



BTW how is the discussion on the 2 thread discussion going bardo?

[Tacosnape]

Any two of their manlands can trade with Quagnoth. You may be able to kill them, but it's incorrect to say that 43lands can't deal with a Quagnoth.

I think Tombstalker comes off as slightly better. It's more difficult to block (Maze of Ith being the only answer), and it does not require six mana to cast.

Quagnoth does force them to lose a manland on each attack. So does any 4/5 or bigger, though.

Maze of Ith may be the only answer to a Tombstalker for them, but it's an answer they'll readily have. You're talking about a deck that runs four of them and runs an incredible engine to get multiple of them in play. Unless you can Wasteland/Extirpate Maze, Tombstalker gets stopped.

Quagnoth, however, can't be stopped by a Maze. What's more, gangblocking a Quagnoth is suicide. Swords before combat damage will cause Quagnoth to eat the other manland, and a well-timed Deed for 1 (Killing all active manlands and Exploration) will cause them severe problems recovering.

[Bardo]

BTW how is the discussion on the 2 thread discussion going bardo?

For the time being, we're going to leave things as they are. And yeah, we realize the Thresh situation is out of whack with this arrangement.

[HSCK]

This may sound crazy, clunky, and generally inefficient, but how do you all think Scapeshift in builds packing Life from the Loam? Or as a faster endgame? Combined with Garruk it guarantees that you will get whatever kill conditions you want instantly and under Standstill the next turn. It also works great with Humility.

[kicks_422]

Crazy, clunky, and generally inefficient.

Tutoring for lands isn't what Landstill does anyway. It just beats with whatever you have drawn or is in play.

[HSCK]

It's not so much a tutor as a kill condition. It gets lots of things you want to beat with now and thins the deck out. Scepshift into Standstill is pretty cool.

A kill package could look like:

2-3 Scapeshift
2 Garruk
1 Tombstalker
1-2 Loam
1-2 Crucible

ON THE OTHER HAND, it knocks out a lot of your defenses if you have no recursion strategy and makes you play a different style.

[galeng]

Sorry Galen, it's unlikely you're going to be able to beat 43.lands no matter what changes you make to the MD. Really, one kid plays it on occasion, you shouldn't worry too much about it. It's going to steamroll everything but combo - just let it be.
BTW 3 Nantuko Monastery seems like too much. How's cunning wish been treating you in UGWB?

EDIT - Standstill seems week against 43.lands, side that out.

I am able to beat it most of the time. It's just a little inconsistant is all. I'm referring to sideboard options, not MD. Nantuko monestery is your best win con, why would you run 2? Cunning wish is an excellent utility card that works well in the deck (probably my best draw vs 43 land in particular). Standstill was my thoughts as well, though loam does break it.

Whoever said extirpate, i tested and it seems to be a leyline that only works on one card and needs mana to cast. What's your reasoning here?

[Hightower]

I'm sorry if this has been brought up 100 times already, but I haven't read all 52 pages, and couldn't see much about it from the first two-three pages.

My question is; what do you guys think is U/w/b/g Landstill's worst matchup(s) in the current state of Legacy? (I'm not sure if Morningtide will matter much for Landstill)

Regards

[thefreakaccident]

The version with 10+ colorless producing lands has the chance to loose to everything... the one with only 6 colorless producing lands has great MUs against a great amount of the field...

It mainly looses to other control decks, and occasionally agro... the combo and agro-control MU is usually terrific, unless they drew terribly.

[Rood]

I'm sorry if this has been brought up 100 times already, but I haven't read all 52 pages, and couldn't see much about it from the first two-three pages.

My question is; what do you guys think is U/w/b/g Landstill's worst matchup(s) in the current state of Legacy? (I'm not sure if Morningtide will matter much for Landstill)

Regards
Worst matchups would probally be sligh type decks, Goyf Sligh. Ichorid I can't imagine to be too fantastic either.

[Obfuscate Freely]

The version with 10+ colorless producing lands has the chance to loose to everything... the one with only 6 colorless producing lands has great MUs against a great amount of the field...
I apologize for singling you out, since you are by no means the first person in this thread to say something like this, but I'm tired of seeing it.

The number of colorless lands in a list has nothing to do with how well that list will be able to access its colors and play its spells. What does have to do with that is how many color-producing lands the list has. This is an important distinction.

For example, my 4c manabase looks like this:

4x Tundra
4x Tropical Island
4x Underground Sea
3x Flooded Strand
3x Polluted Delta

3x Mishra's Factory
2x Nantuko Monastery
1x Volrath's Stronghold

Eighteen of those lands tap for colored mana (or fetch something that does), and all of those eighteen can produce blue mana specifically. For a deck that doesn't always need :u::u: early in the game, those numbers are almost excessive.

Counting fetches, there are ten cards that, when drawn, can grant you white mana, as well as blue. That number tells you that access to white mana is at least a little unreliable. The numbers of green and black sources are the same, and thus access to those colors is similarly questionable. The fact that each of these counts shares overlapping fetchlands means that, as low as they are, this analysis is actually inaccurately optimistic!

What this tells me is that I should not be looking to remove any white, green, or black sources from my deck. Experience with the list in actual play has shown that doing so would, in fact, be ill-advised.

Notice that the weak point of the manabase is in producing the splash colors, not blue mana. So, while 18 blue sources may be more than enough, cutting any of them is out of the question because it would critically compromise the white, green, or black source count.


All of this is just to illustrate how irrelevant the colorless-producing lands are to the strength of the manabase. If I draw a Mishra's Factory, it has nothing to do with whether I draw a Tundra or not, and so it also has nothing to do with whether I can play my Swords to Plowshares or not.

If I wanted to add Wastelands to my deck, I could do so without hurting the manabase, but I would have to cut spells to do so. As long as I kept all 18 of the colored sources, I could have as many colorless lands as I wanted.

[mossivo1986]

I have got to see the rest of your list to obviously make a judgement on wether your just giving us a line of crap or something decent to work with.

Mana bases are made along with decks obviously Like mine posted above I run alot of smoothers and the colorless lands that I do run do something incredibly significant in each matchup.

Im not even going to explain them because they are so obvious it would be retarded to go into it.


The funniest thing i've seen lately is a 4c Landstill list that ran 4mishra's and4Wastelands. He was practicly begging me to get color screwed.

It's not evens so much that you get color screwed in the first couple of spells. It's at the point where you "Should" be able to cast 2-3-and even four spells in a given eot step that you tend to screw yourself.

EX. Today I had a unique hand against mono blue control that resolved a morphling but he was tapped out. A list that ran 4 wasteland's in 4c is more then likely not going to be able to produce the double white for STP that I had.

[kabal]

The funniest thing i've seen lately is a 4c Landstill list that ran 4mishra's and4Wastelands. He was practicly begging me to get color screwed.


As stated above, it is not about the number of colorless lands, it is about how many color producing lands you run.



A list that ran 4 wasteland's in 4c is more then likely not going to be able to produce the double white for STP that I had.

What, when did StP (http://magiccards.info/al/en/224.html) cost double white?

[mossivo1986]

Sorry I had my mind in other places today. Job stuff.

The board position was him 4cards no mana untapped trying to resolve a morphling.

ME double swords in hand. Thats where double white came in.

Heres the funny part. He forces both swords. I untap and draw a 3rd.


The Force wasn't with me, but swords certainly was.

[Illissius]

If you're dead set on beating 43lands, another idea might be (go ahead and laugh) Tsabo's Web. It does turn off a quarter of your manabase or so, but it also shuts off half their deck. Together with Extirpate to disable Wasteland recursion and some sort of flying finisher, you might have a shot.

[Tacosnape]

If you're dead set on beating 43lands, another idea might be (go ahead and laugh) Tsabo's Web. It does turn off a quarter of your manabase or so, but it also shuts off half their deck. Together with Extirpate to disable Wasteland recursion and some sort of flying finisher, you might have a shot.

I tried this, actually. My initial plan was Tsabo's Web + Meddling Mage on Loam. It was pretty effective, especially if I managed to Extirpate Wasteland. The problem, however, was that it didn't keep 43 Land from using one of it's very few basics (The version I faced ran like 2) to activate a Factory or Treetop Village and block.

I suppose now that I run Garruk, however, this would be far less of a problem.

[fghj1983]

Taco I was wondering if you would mind posting you current landstill list. I have been testing Garruk recently and he seems very promising. I am curious to see how you fit him into a four color list. Also has his double green cost been a problem?

[Tacosnape]

Taco I was wondering if you would mind posting you current landstill list. I have been testing Garruk recently and he seems very promising. I am curious to see how you fit him into a four color list. Also has his double green cost been a problem?

I'm hesitant to do so because I've been changing it about every two days in an effort to figure out how to deal with a metagame full of BGW Witness / Vindicate / Extirpate decks. However, here's the current list.

Tacostill, Version 934.6a

4 Underground Sea
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Nantuko Monestary

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Fact or Fiction

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Diabolic Edict
1 Krosan Grip
4 Pernicious Deed

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
2 Stifle
2 Garruk Wildspeaker

SB:
4 Meddling Mage
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Extirpate
3 Engineered Plague
1 Krosan Grip

I keep missing Life From Teh Loam, however, so I'll probably go back to a copy at some point.

I don't miss Engineered Explosives, though. Not one bit. However, I'm sure at some point a Belcher deck will come along and make me regret that sentiment.

[raharu]

Taco, have you considered Meditate in you list? I wouldthink something like -4 Fact or Fiction +3 Meditate and a free slot (mayb that LftL you've been missing?), or -1 Grip,-1 Edict, -1 Fact or Fiction, +3 Meditate.

[kicks_422]

I'm very stubborn with packing Wastelands into Landstill, even in a 4C version. I think it's such a great niche card for the deck that it shouldn't be cut... I run 26 lands to compensate for the loss of colored mana though.

I haven't tested Garruk yet, but could anyone tell me what exactly it helps the deck with? I can see the obvious keeping 2 mana open for Counterspell or attack from Factory, as well as the token generation every turn... But how does that help the deck out in things that it had been lacking before?

BTW... Are there any of you having problems with Garruk not showing up in your decklist in MWS? Adding him increases the deck count, but he doesn't show up on the list... He's in the deck when I play though. Just a minor nuisance, since when I want to decrease the number of Garruks I run, I have to start a new file and input the WHOLE deck again.

[holkenborg]

Garruk gives you, in principal, infinite 3/3 tokens with 1 card, you can untap your attacking lands AND he survives your Deed / Damnation / WoG / Disk / everything :)

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Garruk is an alternate win condition, similar to how some builds run Tarmogoyf, Decree of Justice, or Eternal Dragon. In exchange for being cheap and self recurring, it's more difficult to remove and has more utility.
BTW... Are there any of you having problems with Garruk not showing up in your decklist in MWS? Adding him increases the deck count, but he doesn't show up on the list... He's in the deck when I play though. Just a minor nuisance, since when I want to decrease the number of Garruks I run, I have to start a new file and input the WHOLE deck again.Try adding random creatures until you can see it.

[mossivo1986]

This is to tacosnape and others in regards to garruck. Since your testing of garruck have you come across the problem with you making a 3/3 them axing it and then just killing garruck?

Im just curious because that seems like what thresh would do to it. 4 FOF seems excessive for a legacy build taco. I would drop atleast one for LFTL. One random grip in the mainboard?

[Tacosnape]

This is to tacosnape and others in regards to garruck. Since your testing of garruck have you come across the problem with you making a 3/3 them axing it and then just killing garruck?

Im just curious because that seems like what thresh would do to it. 4 FOF seems excessive for a legacy build taco. I would drop atleast one for LFTL. One random grip in the mainboard?

I should clarify, first, that the 4 Fact or Fiction is strictly a metagame call and not one I'm a huge proponent of ordinarily. I am in a very control-heavy metagame, and it's crucial I be able to win the card advantage war. I haven't actually played Landstill in a tournament in several weeks due to the crappy metagame for it, though.

As for the Garruk/Token thing, this doesn't happen often like I thought it would, mostly because it's incredibly easy to predict when this is going to happen, and you simply don't drop Garruk if this is the case. If an opponent's sitting there with a Goyf or a Mongoose or a Confidant or whatever on the board, and has been sitting on a couple cards in their hand since near the beginning of the game, I'm generally almost positive they're going to be named Swords to Plowshares or something similar (This is why I'm actually testing Cabal Therapy in my sideboard). Therefore I'm going to kill the creature they have in play off before I drop my Garruk.

I need the Grips. Back to Basics and Blood Moon are running rampant and that single maindeck Grip's been better than the 4th Edict so far.

[raharu]

Has anyone thought of a Cunning Wish 4c build? Cunning Wish-> Krosan Grip sounds pretty nice.

[Berzerked]

Yes, they've been posted within the last couple of pages.

I've been having some pain with Moons too, but in the Magus form. Apparently Belcher now runs 3 of him and 5 Blasts mainboard...

I was tossing around ideas in my head and came up with this: Replace a Monastery with an Eternal Dragon and the other with a Plains (I run Goyf so I'm not short on wincons, but this isn't about him [also, Dragon is a secondary wincon]). Anyway, I figured this wouldn't change things too much since the you're replacing non-blue-producinglands anyway (you can count dragon as a land drop). It would allow for fetching of the Plains for StP if you're stuck without a fetch or if your opponent did this before you got to start playing.
Of course, I'm not sure how good this would be in actual play, and it doesn't do much against Blood Moon..eh, what do you think?

[galeng]

Blood Moon/Magus is gonna screw us, and it's gonna be played in every dragon stompy deck you see (8 total). If they main deck it, youre pretty boned. Just try to counter it at all costs and don't keep unanswerable hands against it. If it resolves game 1 you should just scoop and not waste the time. Game 2 board in all your blue elemental blast effects and any enchantment removal. Make sure you can respond to it by fetching a basic, and try to run at least one basic (an island for BEB is nice). Keep counter mana open pretty much for the entire game (remember they have eight, so a top deck is likely). We're pretty lucky that its pretty much only played in dragon stompy because no one has realized its broken in half quite yet.

Good luck.

[raharu]

More like be thankful that there aren't enough mono-red/ other feseable decks to take advantage of it. Blue Blasts are pretty much the best way to handle something like that outside of mulling into turn one Force + blue card, but you're as good as dead if they get the almighty turn zero Blood Moon, meaning you can't even fetch your Island. Thanks Taco, thanks a lot ^_^.

[galeng]

Yep. Force is always your best bet.

On another note what is the best graveyard hate option available to landstill in particular? I'm deciding on these, and have them ranked in this order:

1. Leyline of the Void
2. Tormod's Crypt
3. Planar Void
4. Extirpate

Extirpate is last mainly because it's very ineffective vs. breakfast, which sees the most play out of all the graveyard dependant decks (don't get me wrong, it rocks). What do you think though?

[kicks_422]

How is Extirpate ineffective against Breakfast? I think Extirpate is the best choice, since it's also useful in non-graveyard-dependent MU's.

[galeng]

How is Extirpate ineffective against Breakfast? I think Extirpate is the best choice, since it's also useful in non-graveyard-dependent MU's.

The good breakfast player will therapy it away before they even get to their combo piece. I'm just saying because leyline straight up stops the combo.

[from Cairo]

How is Extirpate ineffective against Breakfast? I think Extirpate is the best choice, since it's also useful in non-graveyard-dependent MU's.

Agreed Extirpate is bomb against Breakfast, counter one of their combo pieces and pate it, kill a goyf and pate it, let them combo off and pate Dread Return or Sutured Ghoul, whichever they hit first...

Extirpate seems like the best GY hate for this deck cause it's also not horrible if you just remove your opponents 4 Goyf from deck, or 4 Counterbalance, or 4 Survival, getting any of those answered off of 1 counter and 1 Extirpate can be a huge boost in controlling the game from there out.


The good breakfast player will therapy it away before they even get to their combo piece. I'm just saying because leyline straight up stops the combo.

If they happen to draw into one of their 2-3 Therapy. When they have Therapy (a 2-3 of) and you don't have Brainstorm (as a 4 of), it's lackluster otherwise I think its better than the other options. If they decide to wait around until they get one, you're all the better, building up a huge grip of answers.

[Soto]

I've been playing Bardo's old Vorosh Control List with Extirpates in the sideboard. Every match I play (competitive decks -with no one ofs- ) I sideboard in 4 Extirpates. One memorable one, was just today at our local tourney, I extirpated all of this threshold players creatures. You could get rid of Wastelands, Swords to Plowshares, Pithing Needles, just to name a few. The next best one is Tormod's Crypt in my opinion. It's good the second it comes down and is obviously incredibly easy to cast.

[raharu]

And then you Force/ whatever the Therapy. If they wait too long, you have Stifle for th CiP ability of the Ghoul (for the builds that still play it), Counterspell and Cunning Wish (for the builds that run it) -> Extirpate EoT, which should do alright as well. Crypt is kinda bad against them, but it does work. Extirpate might not work as well in that MU, but it rapes all over the control mirror. Extirpate on FoW is pretty much GG against a large number of decks (Threshold can't resolve relevant spells through your counter wall/ control anymore, niether can Fish, ect. ect. If TES tries to time-walk you with a Chant they get it 'Pated and now lose to FoW, you take a combo-enabeler, so on and so forth). It's just damn broken.

[galeng]

I understand you guys are really attacked to extirpate so ill ask this:

What's better in landstill against graveyard matchups (breakfast, ichorid, and loam specifically)? Leyline of the void or planar void? Planar void doesn't force you to mull for it which is nice.

[mossivo1986]

It really depends on what variant your running

with 4c I would deffinately go with leyline
in uwb I would go planor void.

Reasoning being you dont want to deed away your planor void and 9/10 you never deed for more then 3


I wonder how the discussion is going with bardo. Do you have any idea taco?

[from Cairo]

Planar Void sucks if you're planning to utilize Crucible or Life From the Loam... I really think Extirpate is best, but would use Leyline of the Void or Tormod's Crypt + Academy Ruins before I resorted to Planar Void

[thefreakaccident]

Crypt + academy ruins only works against incompetent players (most will board, a- pithing needle, b- bounce, c-grip)...

Ichorid/loam/breakfast are in no hurry to win the game, they can sit and wait for their SB cards (unless you have humility HAHAHA!!, JK).

Leyline is best for 4c, for 3c you definitely want extirpate... which isn't just good against graveyard reliant decks, as it can help out an many many MUs, especially against opposing control decks.

[Mister Agent]

Leyline of the void meets stern proctor and abeyance nullifies tormod's crypts. Also their aether vials can just go the mile with any landstill deck to an extent and can keep their combo outlets more intact. The Breakfast player can just wait and then strike. An compotent player with cephalid breakfast is never in a hurry to win games when need be. Not saying that the breakfast matchup is not winnable for landstill though. I personally think Clemen's UWB landstill deck has a solid chance against breakfast since explosives are relevant in that matchup.

[Tacosnape]

I understand you guys are really attacked to extirpate so ill ask this:

What's better in landstill against graveyard matchups (breakfast, ichorid, and loam specifically)? Leyline of the void or planar void? Planar void doesn't force you to mull for it which is nice.

Planar Void forces you to either Mull for it or Brainstorm into it on the first turn, because it's useless after the first couple turns.

That said, against pure graveyard matchups, Extirpate is still better than either of the Voids. Against Ichorid, they can bounce an enchantment, whereas you can Extirpate Bridge from Below, STP Ichorids, Plague for Horrors/Illusions, and generally own face.

Leyline and Planar Void belong in aggro or aggro-control decks, or combo decks. Extirpate is a monster in Landstill, and running without it is a complete mistake.

[galeng]

@Tacosnape: I still don't get why extirpate is better than the "voids" so ill just dismiss it for now. Maybe I'll figure it out later.

I'm looking for an instant win condition to run as a one of in the board. What do you guys think is the best one to run in landstill?

[mossivo1986]

Planor void come to find out is just bad for landstill anyways. If you use any sort of recursion theme for your manlands or anything it just bites you in the a.. . That said realisticly Leyline and Extirpate are just far better.


So heres an interesting question:

In my metagame my friend runs a ugr/b list. I have no idea what some of the counts of cards are but in playtesting heres his "odd" list. Problem being the only games i've won are the ones where I extirpate LFTL.

Heres my list:

// Lands
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [UNH] Plains
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [B] Tundra
2 [B] Underground Sea
2 [B] Tropical Island
1 [B] Scrubland
1 [B] Savannah
1 [UNH] Island
1 [TE] Wasteland
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins

// Creatures
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
4 [IA] Brainstorm
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
4 [IA] Counterspell
2 [TE] Humility
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [OD] Standstill
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
2 [DIS] Spell Snare

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [TSP] Return to dust
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [IN] Fact or Fiction
SB: 1 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [IA] Hydroblast

And his list from what i've seen.


3 mishra
1 underground sea
- taiga
- breeding pool
4 wasteland
- blue cycle land
-green cycle land
- red cycle land
1 academy ruins

4 LFTL
- crucible
4 fire/ice
4 living wish
- meloku
- masticore
- counterspell
-force of will
4 exploration
-eternal witness?

sb
ghost quarter
volraths stronghold
academy ruins
eternal witness?
1 indrik stomphowler

Either way I don't know exactly how to beat this. Taco can you help me. It seems like I beat him when I get multiple factories and some major card advantage but his ability to basicly bang me with wasteland/ exploration recursion just makes me cry.

Im pretty sure I should be extirpating LFTL and I should deffinately counter crucible at all costs. And side out standstill. I also can take out hydroblast in meta as red isn't run at all seriously.

[loxodonhierarch]

Hello, im new here :rolleyes:

i really like the information in this thread, and the deck aswell, im playing the 4 color version and this is my list :

Lands

1 Savannah
2 Wasteland
2 Nantuko Monastery
3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
4 Mishra’s Factory
1 Island

Counters

4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle

Removal

2 Engineered Explosives
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Swords to Plowshares

Draw

3 Fact or Fiction
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm

Rest

2 Garruk Wildspeaker
2 Crucible of Worlds

// sideboard

3 Hydroblast
4 Extirpate
3 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Engineered Explosives

I really like this, and with this board ive won some games vs loam, and dragonstompy

Maybe 1 Tombstalker instead of a garruk.. but garruk hmm i like it more, it can help you in some situations where Tombstalker doesnt help you, same could be said about tombstalker ofc, but i just like garruk more


whats your opinion about this list ?

[loxodonhierarch]

I see, ive posted my list at the sime time some else did srry for that

Very diffrent.. deck, i dont know what to say about it

[Mental]

Here's a small tournament report just to rave about the awesomeness of Leyline of the Void.

Here was my list:

4 Mishra's Factory
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
3 Wasteland
3 Island
1 Faerie Conclave
2 Academy Ruins
1 Tolaria West

4 Tarmogoyf
2 Shriekmaw

4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Vedalken Shackles
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Fact or Fiction
2 Crucible of Worlds

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Engineered Plague
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Chalice of the Void

First I'm paired against Survival. I forget the games exactly but they involve me deeding his stuff a lot, countering survival, G2 playing Leyline (hardcasted FTL) and Chalice @2, and beating complete face.
Round 2 is against 43.Lands. G1 I have a quick start with double goyf but he locks me out of the game with recurring Treetop village. Game 2 I bring in Chalice and Loam and drop them both in the first few turns, so he scoops. Game 3 I do the same but he keeps topdecking mazes of ith, and when I finally draw Wastelock it is too late and we have to draw.
Round 3 I play Sensei, Sensei. It was actually quite an interesting deck. G1 I play Goyf and swing FTW. Game 2 I board in Chalice. I drop Chalice @2 and he FoWs and then goes off. Game 3 I bait out all his counters with Chalices and then swing FTW with Goyfs.
Round 4 I play against Ugb Threshold. G1 I just barely beat him - We're both at 2 life, but I have Faerie Conclave FTW. G2 I bring in Chalice, which was good, but he's too fast. Same deal game 3. =/

Anyways, why am I posting this?
Basically to say the Leyline of the Void is NUTS, don't play Extirpate.

[Jak]

So you only saw Leyline once? And it was hard-cast? Doesn't sound that amazing at all.

[Mister Agent]

[list above]

First of all welcome to the source. :)

I would run another wasteland to add more consistency and less randomness to your stifles. Also I think your running excessive amount of one sided hate cards in your sideboard. Unless of course you have a heavy red and graveyard utility deck metagame. Give some thought to krosan grips and meddling mages.

I personally prefer garruck since he has a role of being a defensive specialist and also a finisher at the sametime.

[Bardo]

Here's my new list that I've been working on.

"Mostly Monoblue Control"
by Bardo

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Fact or Fiction

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance

3 Pernicious Deed
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Vedalken Shackles

4 Tarmogoyf

4 Mishra's Factory
4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Island
1 Swamp
1 Academy Ruins
1 Faerie Conclave

Sideboard
4 Engineered Plague
4 Hydroblast
3 Dark Confidant
2 Krosan Grip
2 Extirpate

I took it to a small tournament today and split the finals:

Mini-report here:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=202792#post202792

In brief:

R1: Bye.
R2: 1-2 vs. Goyf Sligh (fucked up here)
R3: 2-0 vs. White Thresh
R4: 2-0 vs. TES
R5 (Top 4): 2-1 vs. TrinketNaught

Split 1st with Truffle Shuffle.

The list was perfect, except for the singleton Fact and Conclave. Those cards sucked and were sided out every chance I had.

CounterTop is amazing here; my love of Tarmogoyf is well known; and the Bobs in the board were also tech.

[Jak]

What would you run in the empty slots then?

[Bardo]

What would you run in the empty slots then?

-1 Fact or Fiction
-1 Faerie Conclave

+2 of the following (in no particular order):

- Spell Snare
- Stifle
- Treetop Village
- Thoughtseize
- Wasteland
- Maze of Ith
- Garruk Wildspeaker
- Diabolic Edict / Smother
- Tombstalker
- Shriekmaw

Of the above, I've tested them all (sans Garruk) and would consider the two slots in question to be modular metagame slots.

[mossivo1986]

bardo hows that discussion comming along?

[loxodonhierarch]

Thank you agent funk :D im glad ive joined

thanks for your advise aswell! ive honeslty never tested meddling mage, but it seems decent if you think about it

@ Mental, i think you need ATLEAST pate, and the best is to play both leyline and pate in my opinion

Ive changed my list now by cutting 1 Fact or Fiction, and adding a Mystic Enforcer

also im trying to cut white out, by adding Shriekmaw instead of STP but i doubt if you can miss the STP

[Mental]

So you only saw Leyline once? And it was hard-cast? Doesn't sound that amazing at all.

No, I saw it twice Vs. 43.Lands and it won me both games (or would have won me one had we not gone overtime).

[Mister Agent]

Thank you agent funk :D im glad ive joined

thanks for your advise aswell! ive honeslty never tested meddling mage, but it seems decent if you think about it

@ Mental, i think you need ATLEAST pate, and the best is to play both leyline and pate in my opinion

Ive changed my list now by cutting 1 Fact or Fiction, and adding a Mystic Enforcer

also im trying to cut white out, by adding Shriekmaw instead of STP but i doubt if you can miss the STP


Well, Meddling mage obviously help your TES and other storm combo matchup.

I actually thought of building an UGB landstill deck with cunning wish. Although utilitizing cunning wish in landstill can be skill intensive but can potentially save you in those tight game 1 situations. Cunning wish in UGB landstill seems worth testing at least.

[Bardo]

bardo hows that discussion comming along?

See post #1022 above. After discussion, we've decided to leave things as they are, as there doesn't seem to be any tremendous downside to discussing the various configurations in the same thread.

[fghj1983]

Here is a tournament of this past Saturday with me playing 4 color Landstill and splitting in the finals.

The list:

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Fact or Fiction

4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Engineered Explosives

2 Crucible of Worlds

2 Garruk

4 Tundra
4 Tropical Islands
4 Underground Sea
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Nantuko Monestary

Sideboard
4 Hydroblast
4 Meddling Mage
4 Duress
3 Extirpate

4 rounds cut to top 4 14 players.

Round 1 against Robert? playing Countertop Slivers. 2-0

Game one he wins the roll plays out some guys I resolve an explosive for 2 and counter his stifle to wipe the board. I play Garruk and win shortly after.
I side nothing in for this matchup as its largely in my favor. Game two he stalls on one land for a couple turns though I do have to force a stifle on an early fetch to play a standstill. He eventually gets land out and plays out counter balance and top I play deed which gets through next turn I deed for 2 end step and stifle his top activation. I swords a few of his guys and counter some pithing needles and win with monastery and factory over the next few turns.

Round 2 against ??? playing Burn. 2-1

First game I draw a bunch of dead cards and don't have the counters for double price of progress. I side out my removal and some stifles and side in 4 duress, 4 hydroblast, and 4 meddling mage. I get 3 early mages with some counters and wreck him pretty quick. Next game I turn one duress and turn two mage with counters for most of his burn and factory beat down.

Round 3 against ??? playing Enduring Ideal with counter backup. 2-1

Game one I have no idea what he is playing and he is able to force through an ideal with more counters than me. Game two I side out my stifles, swords, explosives, crucible for 4 duress, 4 meddling mage, 2 extirpate. I go turn one duress followed by aggro meddling mage again. Game 3 I deed some artifact mana and draw into some mages and counters to keep him from forcing ideal through till factories and mages beat him down.

Round 4 against Colton playing Dragon Stompy. 2-1

Game one he wins the roll and I have to mulligan as I know what hes playing. I keep a hand with force land and a blue card. I have to force a turn 2 Slogger and have no answer for turn 3 moon at which point I scoop for game two. I side out stifles and a fact or fiction for 4 hydroblasts. I have alot of swords this game and he has no chalice I remove most of his threats and kill with monastery over the next several turns. He has a turn two chalice for one which I allow with engineered explosives in hand. I drop land and pass the turn he plays a mox next turn and a pit dragon which I allow. I explosive for zero on my turn to blow the mox and chalice and swords the dragon when he attacks. He plays sulfur elemental on my end step and I blast it when he attacks. He runs out of gas and I beat him down with mishra's.


In the semifinal's I play against Paul with Monoblack suicide. 2-1

I lose the roll again and he starts with carnophage and then hymn which I force. I eventually deed away his army at like 7 life and play garruk. He scoops two turns later. I miss play this game and pass the turn on turn 4 instead of dropping a deed and blowing up his 2 carnophages and sarcomancy tokens. He plays a negator and I don't have enough mana to blow everything up and he gets through for lethal. Game 3 he starts off with double ritual carnophage, hymn, then bob. I let the hymn resolve it hits a fetch and a fact or fiction. I pitch stifle and force bob. I have factory, fetch and swords in hand. I draw another factory play fetch and pass he beats and plays a shade which I swords. I untap and draw a standstill and drop it and a factory. He wastelands the factory and keeps swinging. I play my other factory and he is forced to break standstill. He plays a couple sarcomancys which I explosive away of zero. I eventually draw a third factory along with deed and gain control of the game.

The finals would be be playing Colton again with Dragon Stompy but we decide to split. Over all I liked the build I was using. I dropped wasteland for this tournament and did not regret it. Though some people play Lands! around here I got lucky and didn't get paired against them. I loved my sideboard even though extirpate didn't do much this time it has helped against loam in the past. I never lost a game I dropped Garruk but he could have probably been another win condition and still won me the game. I need to do more testing on him.

[galeng]

Why are people running garruk in landstill. He doesn't help any of our bad matchups or any of the things we were lacking pre lorwyn. He's good in standard, but in legacy? Wouldn't jace be a better option since he actually provides control elements rather than random aggro beats?

This is almost as stupid as the idea of goyf in landstill.

[Mental]

Why are people running garruk in landstill. He doesn't help any of our bad matchups or any of the things we were lacking pre lorwyn. He's good in standard, but in legacy? Wouldn't jace be a better option since he actually provides control elements rather than random aggro beats?

This is almost as stupid as the idea of goyf in landstill.

In that case, what's your finisher of choice?

[Tacosnape]

Why are people running garruk in landstill. He doesn't help any of our bad matchups or any of the things we were lacking pre lorwyn. He's good in standard, but in legacy? Wouldn't jace be a better option since he actually provides control elements rather than random aggro beats?

This is almost as stupid as the idea of goyf in landstill.

I strongly disagree.

First of all, comparing Garruk to Tarmogoyf is like comparing Brainstorm to Dandan, in that the extent of what they have in common is that they're the same color.

Tarmogoyf's biggest drawback is giving fuel to your opponent's removal. Swords to Plowshares kills it. So does Vindicate, Deed, Explosives, so does Shriekmaw, Edict, Smother, or whatever the case may be. Garruk Wildspeaker dies to Vindicate only. And on rare occasions, an Engineered Explosives for 4. When Garruk is used intelligently, Lightning Bolt can't kill him either.

Garruk improves tons of bad matchups. Landstill, for example, has trouble against a lot of other control decks, as well as decks capable of stopping lands in general. Garruk can generate mana and provide an endless stream of threats.

Jace is a far worse option. Jace pitches to Force of Will, and that's the extent of his amazingness. Unlike Garruk, he can't defend himself by sticking a blocker in front of himself, or by untapping lands to allow instants or Factory blocks. He's incredibly slow at killing an opponent, and to do so, he has to provide a Howling Mine effect over several turns, which is a risky effect when most of your opponents run less land than you do. Jace, essentially, is three cards for :1::u::u: at best, which while decent, isn't highly comparable to Garruk.

Finally, in the world of Extirpates, having a mere 2 kill conditions in a deck is highly risky. Landstill needs a third kill condition. Garruk's very strong, very hard to remove, and provides an endless stream of 3/3 beasts if he isn't stopped, which a lot of decks can't do. That's good enough for me.

[kabal]

Why are people running garruk in landstill. He doesn't help any of our bad matchups or any of the things we were lacking pre lorwyn. He's good in standard, but in legacy? Wouldn't jace be a better option since he actually provides control elements rather than random aggro beats?

This is almost as stupid as the idea of goyf in landstill.


In that case, what's your finisher of choice?

How about Quagnoth or Tombstalker

[Mental]

How about Quagnoth or Tombstaker

If there were proven results with either of them, I would believe it. Tombstalker seems really weak, IMO.
Quagnoth is actually interesting, but at 6 mana he seems poor. Maybe as a 1-2 of for the late game.

[Tacosnape]

The problem with Quagnoth, speaking as its top proponent and the original suggestor of it, is that for it to be at its absolute best, you need it in a metagame that's completely awash with control decks. And if you're in a metagame that's completely awash with control decks, you don't need to be playing Landstill in the first place.

[kabal]

If there were proven results with either of them, I would believe it. Tombstalker seems really weak, IMO.


Tombstill by Simone Giovannetti (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=12444)

- Date: 23.12.2007
- Place: 2nd
- Participants: 114


EDIT: Here is one more...

Location: Cardano al Campo (VA), Italy (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=200247&postcount=3)
Date: 13/01/2008
Place: 2nd
Players: 25

Landoni, Nicola - UBgw Tombstalker Landstill

// Lands
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [u] Underground Sea
3 [b] Tundra
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [b] Tropical Island
3 [TE] Wasteland
1 [LRW] Island (2)

// Creatures
3 [FUT] Tombstalker

// Spells
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [SC] Stifle
2 [IN] Fact or Fiction
2 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
4 [5E] Brainstorm
3 [5E] Counterspell
4 [OD] Standstill
1 [DIS] Crime/Punishment
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [b] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AL] Force of Will

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [4E] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [7E] Duress
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void

[galeng]

I didn't get the other stuff you said so..


Landstill, for example, has trouble against a lot of other control decks.

Wasn't aware. Since when?


Finally, in the world of Extirpates, having a mere 2 kill conditions in a deck is highly risky. Landstill needs a third kill condition. Garruk's very strong, very hard to remove, and provides an endless stream of 3/3 beasts if he isn't stopped, which a lot of decks can't do. That's good enough for me.

Yes I agree 2 is too little, but I'm asuming people are running other threats other than strange standard tech. 2 should work fine though since they need 2 extirpates and 2 ways to put both win cons in the grave (are these extripate/sudden death decks? otherwise counter the removal). Plus we can agree this guy sucks against any aggro or mid ranged aggro control right?

You say somewhere that you can dodge lightning bolt by playing him "intellegently". Please share your secrets.

[Citrus-God]

Wasn't aware. Since when?


Ever since it was a metagame consideration. Rifter, Wombat, Tog... yeah...

[zulander]

You say somewhere that you can dodge lightning bolt by playing him "intellegently". Please share your secrets.
Play Garruk, once he resolves you have priority, then activate his untap two lands ability and add a counter to him. Your opponent can bolt him but he'll have 4 counters on him because he can't respond to you paying a cost.

[Arsenal]

Play Garruk, once he resolves you have priority, then activate his untap two lands ability and add a counter to him. Your opponent can bolt him but he'll have 4 counters on him because he can't respond to you paying a cost.

Hmm... interesting. I did not fully understand Planeswalker/Bolt interaction.

[Shawn]

I've been messing around with a UWg Counter-top list with Enlightened Tutor and Goyfs and it's been disappointing for me, at least. A couple things:

* Whenever I played a Goyf, it turned on my opponents removal. I played Sunday at the monthly IA City tournament and Goyf only stuck twice. It won one of the games against goblins, but the other game he stuck I had Countertop and a Dragon to kill them with, so I would have won anyway.
* I sided-boarded out Standstill every match. Round two I played against Boros deck wins, played a turn two Standstill and he proceeds to play Factory. I proceed to lose from there.
* Everyone seemed to board Needles and other hateful cards to stop the Counter-Top shenanigans.
* The games I had Counter-Top assembled, I won, and the ones I didn't, I lost. I somehow didn't find a Counterbalance against Boros, which would have wrecked him.
* I'm having difficulty fighting other control decks. Deed, E.E., Dismantling Blow and Krosan Grips get around Counterbalance nicely. I've had much more success against control with a more traditional lists without Goyf, Counterbalance, Enlightened Tutor, and Top, and with Decrees and 3 Spell Snares md, and 1 in the side.
* I'm not convinced the green splash is worth it (in the UW versions). I don't like Goyf, Dismantling Blow gets around Counterbalance the same way Grip does, and is easier to cast with a Blood Moon effect in play. Also, cutting green allows for more basics lands, which makes Blood Moon less relevant. Monastery is really strong, but IMHO, it's not worth the splash.
* Silver bullets such as Moat are awesome in game one, but most of the decks have ways to deal with them after board, which removes the "Oh, I can just tutor for Moat and win" factor, and leaves you SOL.

Thoughts? Thanks for any help.

[Nihil Credo]

* Silver bullets such as Moat are awesome in game one, but most of the decks have ways to deal with them after board, which removes the "Oh, I can just tutor for Moat and win" factor, and leaves you SOL.

Just chiming in - I've been working on a shitload of silver-bullet control decks since the CaNGD was announced and I can totally sympathize with this.

There are basically two solutions to this problem. The first is to just run 3-4 Moats. The second is to run a 59-card solid control deck that just happens to have Moat in it. Pick one.

[alebronwebb]

This is the Ubg list I built like two days ago and I would like some advice from the experts.

Lands 26
4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest

Creatures 2
2 Tombstalker

Other 32
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Cunning Wish
2 Cruicible of Worlds
2 Garruk Wildspeaker
3 Engineered Explosives

SB 15 (the wishboard probably sucks, help???)
3 Extirpate
2 Krosan Grip
4 Hydroblast
3 Engineered Plague
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Diabolic Edict

[diffy]

This is the Ubg list I built like two days ago and I would like some advice from the experts.
[...]
4 Wasteland


Without Stifle these don't really make sense as a full playset as they basically make your mana suck (8 colorless lands and mana costs like UU, GG, BB are not friends) and are contra-productive to your gameplan (you want to hit landdrops to get ahead of the opponent).



3 Cunning Wish


Without white (Pulse of Fields) and with Pernicious Deed main these don't make sense as you have acess to another way to deal with problematic non-creature permanents unlike in the UWb version.
Access to Extirpate preboard is nice but I don't think that this is enough to warrant the inclusion of Wish (especially since Life from the Loam or other recursion engines don't seem to be present in the American meta)



2 Crucible of Worlds


When playing green, I like a split between Life from the Loam and CoW here because LftL is better against decks that want to cut you of from your resources and has great synergy with Brainstorm in the later game.

A thing that really stroke me is that you don't run any spot removal which seems not like a good thing since your sweepers will than have to make bad trades mana-wise for single, standalone threats like Dark Confidant or Tarmogoyf. I'd suggest playing a combination of the following: Innocent Blood, Ghastly Demise, Smother, Shriekmaw.

I also strongly dislike Tombstalker in landstill as he's just a finisher that doesn't do that much in the early game. You already run Garruk as additional finisher so I don't think that the stalker is needed.

26 lands with little to no utility also seems excessive. I've been playing 24 for ages now and never had problems. The untutorable forest seems also out of place.

Suggested changes:
-3 Cunning Wish
-2 Tombstalker
-1 Crucible of Worlds
-3 Wasteland

+1 Tolaria West (secret svg tech)
+1 Academy Ruins
+4 Innocent Blood
+2 Fact or Fiction
+1 Thirst for Knowledge

If you're keen on keeping the Cunning Wish engine, here's what you could consider for the wishboard:
Slaugher Pact for the removal slot as the upkeep cost won't be a problem and because it can be used as early as turn3 unlike the other options. It's also very nice against Magus of the Moon.
Krosan Grip for the random disenchant slot
Fact or Fiction is a little clunky for the card advantage slot but I don't see a better option (you don't have Enlightened Tutor like in the UWb or 4c build)
Extirpate is obviously an auto include
For some metas Tsabo's Decree (http://magiccards.info/in/en/129.html) could be nice as a finisher for anything tribal

Suggested Sideboard:
4 Engineered Plague/Propaganda
4 Stifle (I don't see your combo matchup being good)
4 Extirpate
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Slaugher Pact
1 Krosan Grip

Edit: Alternatively you could try a more aggressive build with multiple threats (Tarmogoyf, Tombstalker, Garruk, Shriekmaw) and a more flexilbe removal/permission package (Couterbalance, Vedalken Shackles) and more tempo elements (Stifle, Wasteland) but that would mean quite a big change to the original concept/deck.

[alebronwebb]

Thanks for input, I haven't had time to play the deck a lot so I didn't know what was good or not. I made the following changes so far -4 Wasteland, +4 Innocent Blood (I'll probably get hammered for this). -1 CoW, +1 LftL The 2 Fact or Fiction was on my paper list (on a different line, i guessed I missed it).

I don't have a problem completly changing the original deck, it was just to get started in Landstill. I think the aggressive build might be a little better for me but i don't know that much about it (I'll probably have to drop wish though, which I'd hate to do).

[galeng]

Play Garruk, once he resolves you have priority, then activate his untap two lands ability and add a counter to him. Your opponent can bolt him but he'll have 4 counters on him because he can't respond to you paying a cost.

Planeswalker abilities can only be used at sorcery speed though. I thought there is prority for each player after a spell has resolved but not yet where sorceries can be played. For example:

You: Garruk. Pass.
Opponent: Pass.
(Garruk Resolves)
You: Pass
Opponent: Lighting Bolt on Garruk
You: Can't respond with garruk ability.

I'm pretty damn sure this is how the stack works.

[Tacosnape]

Planeswalker abilities can only be used at sorcery speed though. I thought there is prority for each player after a spell has resolved but not yet where sorceries can be played. For example:

You: Garruk. Pass.
Opponent: Pass.
(Garruk Resolves)
You: Pass
Opponent: Lighting Bolt on Garruk
You: Can't respond with garruk ability.

I'm pretty damn sure this is how the stack works.

This -would- be how the stack worked if you made poor choices. However, instead, what you do is this:

You: Garruk. Pass.
Opponent: Pass.
(Garruk Resolves)
You: As I am the active player and still have priority, I activate Garruk's Land Untapping ability, moving his Loyalty to 4 as part of the ability's cost.
Opponent: ...um...Char?
You: (Reading the card) That's not a Char. That's a Lightning Bolt.
Opponent: It is too a Char. And I'm Mark Rosewater. Also, any resemblance I bear to a Troglotroll is pure coincidence. Ak-ak-ak.

As such, as long as you don't stupidly pass priority after resolving Garruk, you can get him out of Bolt range before your opponent has a move. This is similar to how you can Flashback Cabal Therapy with a creature you just played before your opponent can remove it.

[zulander]

Planeswalker abilities can only be used at sorcery speed though. I thought there is prority for each player after a spell has resolved but not yet where sorceries can be played. For example:

You: Garruk. Pass.
Opponent: Pass.
(Garruk Resolves)
You: Pass
Opponent: Lighting Bolt on Garruk
You: Can't respond with garruk ability.

I'm pretty damn sure this is how the stack works.

Only works like that if the card has a Comes into play trigger. Otherwise this is how playing Garruk works:

You: Garruk, no response to playing him.
Opponent: They counter or pass
//Garruk resolves
You now have priority, the stack is empty, and it is your main phase. You can now play sorceries (or abilities that can only be played as a sorcery), lands, enchantments, artifacts, creatures, or another planeswalker. You activate Garruk by paying his ability (add a counter) and then the abilty is put on the stack. If your opponent bolts him now he'll have 1 counter on Garruk.

[galeng]

//Garruk resolves
You now have priority, the stack is empty, and it is your main phase.

This is what I was unsure about. Thanks.

[Sigar]

"Mostly Monoblue Control"
by Bardo


The deck looks really sweet, but why do you run Deed over, let's say, Damnation?

[zulander]

Deed hits counterbalance and problem artifacts against stax/stompy decks. It is more mana intensive however, but much more versatile.

[Sigar]

Yes, but he plays countertop him self, and man lands beat white stax all day long?

[Bardo]

The deck looks really sweet, but why do you run Deed over, let's say, Damnation?

Plusses of Deed over Damnation:

* If you're beating down with Goyfs and you need to clear some Mongeese/Lavamancers/Whatnot away, Deed > Damnation.

* In a 3c manabase that's aiming for the easiest possible operating requirments (the deck needs only BGUU to cast every spell in the deck), 1BG+x > 2BB.

* Deed kills annyoying permanents that Damnation can't touch (Needles on Shackles, EE); opposing CBs; really annoying 4c white enchantments (Humility, Moat, mainly)

* Deed > Damnation (a turn quicker) when answering ETW tokens

* Deed > Affinity

Number of my own permanents I've killed in my last ~30 games = 1 (an EE which had a Pithing Needle stuck in it). Otherwise, you'd really be surprised how rarely it comes up that you kill your own stuff.

Then there's random gravy, like the ability to kill manlands when activated, powering up Goyf, etc.

Incidentally, the 3/3 EE/Deed split is helpful navigating around Needles and Meddling Magi--and both have relative merits over the other regardless (e.g. EE can be played and activated with only a basic Island and Factory).

[mossivo1986]

Couldnt agree more. Deed is soo much better against alot of decks and worth playing because it owns alot of matchups vs a completely dead card against serious control decks. Deed has such versatility that waiting a turn can be worth it to pop it off.

in fact alot of times in the middle of a game if my opponent and I are in a top decking war casting deed is soo good as a threat it basicly says you have to lure out something worth playing or im going to just sit with removal in play for the rest of the game.

In the build I have I go 3v2 deed/ EE which feels perfect for me. Like I have said many times deed wins more matchups by the sheer cards it takes even if it takes your own that it's worth it. Oh and try this trick in the near future.

My opponent and I are playing landstill. I'm playing 4cwishstill and he's playing a 3cwishstill list. The main difference is wraths in this matchups and I believe he has +1 wish compared to my 2.

Anyways we are dead set on top deck mode. I have crucuble of worlds an assload of fetches and draw a deed. I play mishra's factory from my grave, then play deed. Pass.

He drops a land passes.

I activate mishra's swing. He responds to attacking "swords" I deed for 0. Play mishra's factory. Pass turn

That play has happened 3 times to me in testing so far. and EVERY single time it's won me the game. The ability to get away from removal even if it costs me removal still gets my creature back into play and keeps the beats on for the next turn. Obviously if he decrees its bad news. But I do have my own decrees and I have academy ruins + EE + Deed to stop that nonsence.

Bottom line Deed has MANY uses and each one of them individually are powerfull and combining them is just teh nuts.

Deed gets my approval.

Oh and BTW:

Connan obrien made colbeir, colbeir made huckabie, so connan made Mike Huckabie!!

[Burr]

hey, im trying to put together a cunning landstill build and i was wondering what you guys thought about a wishboard slot.

return to dust

or

dismantling blow

any thoughts? preferences?

[Sigar]

Guys, I know what Deed does, that's not what I'm asking. I'm asking why you would run Deed over Damnation in a deck that wants to establish the countertop engine asap.

[diffy]

I was wondering what you guys thought about a wishboard slot.

return to dust or dismantling blow

any thoughts? preferences?


If you're playing any white based build with 2-3 colors, go with Return to Dust.
If you're playing a 4c build, go with Dismantlig Blow/Krosan Grip.

The thing I really like about Return to Dust is that it produces card advantage (especially good against any Chalice based aggro decks [equipements are hell to deal with as they turn every creature into a must handle] and stuff like Stax or Enchantress) and gets rid of the problematic stuff totally (especially good against Survival based decks who now can't just nab a Witness and go crazy again).
Dismantling Blow is okay too but I've never paid the kicker on it so I'd rather have Krosan Grip for additional security in 4c builds(some people don't think and let your Wish resolve or don't do stuf like Survivaling for recursion in responce to Wish).



I'm asking why you would run Deed over Damnation in a deck that wants to establish the countertop engine asap.


Simple:
If you've assembled CounterTop early enough, you don't need Deed/Damnation.
If not, you want the more flexible/powerfull effect of Deed over Damnation.
Also, if you're going to pop a Deed whith stuff of you on the table, you're still creating card advantage in most cases.

The biggest drawback for me that Deed has is its steep cost (color hungry and forces you to pay twice, sort of like an Akroma's Vengeance that you can pay over 2 turns) and its needlability (people should still play Needle in NQG!).

[Sigar]

Countertop is not bulletproof, even Goblins can play around it all day. And that one turn difference there is between Deed and Damnation/WoG, can easily be crucial against Goblins.

[Ch@os]

Countertop is not bulletproof, even Goblins can play around it all day. And that one turn difference there is between Deed and Damnation/WoG, can easily be crucial against Goblins.

Deed also gets the rid of Goblins in Turn 4.

[diffy]

Countertop is not bulletproof, even Goblins can play around it all day.


It shouldn't spell only Goblins but nothing but Goblins can play around it efficiently thanks to their curve that's all over the place.
Against any other deck, getting Balance+Top working by turn3 or 4 will mean that you won't have any problems in the next time (they have to set up a massive assault, to outmana you), just sit on your shuffle effects and develop your manabase. Any threat that slipped through earlier can be handled via FoW or spot removal.

This to say, I am no proponent of CounterTop in Landstill, but it could be good in some sort of Aggro-Control Landstill hybrid with Tarmogoyfs, Garruks, Shackles and so forth to play proactive cards over the more traditional/reactive stuff (sample lists: this (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=203496&postcount=7) and this (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=201145&postcount=35)).



And that one turn difference there is between Deed and Damnation/WoG, can easily be crucial against Goblins.

Not only against Goblins but against most aggro decks (esp. Aggro Loam), that's exactly why I personally prefer UWb over 4c.

[Sigar]

I didn't say ONLY against Goblins. Please stop being such a wise a**. Saying that Goblins is the only deck that can play around CounterTop is just plain wrong.

[Media314r8]

First I'm paired against Survival. I forget the games exactly but they involve me deeding his stuff a lot, countering survival, G2 playing Leyline (hardcasted FTL) and Chalice @2, and beating complete face.
Round 2 is against 43.Lands. G1 I have a quick start with double goyf but he locks me out of the game with recurring Treetop village. Game 2 I bring in Chalice and Loam and drop them both in the first few turns, so he scoops. Game 3 I do the same but he keeps topdecking mazes of ith, and when I finally draw Wastelock it is too late and we have to draw.
Round 3 I play Sensei, Sensei. It was actually quite an interesting deck. G1 I play Goyf and swing FTW. Game 2 I board in Chalice. I drop Chalice @2 and he FoWs and then goes off. Game 3 I bait out all his counters with Chalices and then swing FTW with Goyfs.
Round 4 I play against Ugb Threshold. G1 I just barely beat him - We're both at 2 life, but I have Faerie Conclave FTW. G2 I bring in Chalice, which was good, but he's too fast. Same deal game 3. =/

Anyways, why am I posting this?
Basically to say the Leyline of the Void is NUTS, don't play Extirpate.

Sounds more like chalice was MVP. Extirpate would have won you theese games just as easily, and couldnt have been countered like your hardcast leyline. Also, B >>> 2BB

[Bardo]

I'm asking why you would run Deed over Damnation in a deck that wants to establish the countertop engine asap.

Because, a lot of times, you'd don't. It's not like every card miraculously appears whenever you want it--let alone two of them that are both 3-ofs. Sure, some times you get Counterbalance and Divining Top together; more often you get one and not the other and some games you just win without seeing either.

Also, CB doesn't stabilize anything--it occasionally helps to keep things from getting out of hand. But if you're getting pummeled by two threshed Mongeese and a Tarmogoyf--CounterTop is going to do nothing for you.

EE, Deed and Shackles are the board control parts of the deck. And I don't think I've ever once Deed'd a Counterbalance away. You can take my word for it, but it'd be better if you just tested it out yourself to see what I mean.

This does require that you play the deck correctly, and not deliberately make poor play decisions so that you're nuking CB without an extremely good reason to do so.

Seriously, though, any anti-synergy between the cards is really more theoretical and partically never comes up.


Countertop is not bulletproof, even Goblins can play around it all day. And that one turn difference there is between Deed and Damnation/WoG, can easily be crucial against Goblins.

I board out CounterTop + Spell Snares for 4x BEB + 4x Plagues. CounterTop is jank against Gobs. It's slow, mana intensive and almost never counters Gobs most threatening cards anyway. (Not even counting Vial here.)


I didn't say ONLY against Goblins. ... Saying that Goblins is the only deck that can play around CounterTop is just plain wrong.

True. You board it out against decks where it's poor--though that doesn't make up that many decks (not good ones, anyway).

[Sigar]

Also, CB doesn't stabilize anything--it occasionally helps to keep things from getting out of hand. But if you're getting pummeled by two threshed Mongeese and a Tarmogoyf--CounterTop is going to do nothing for you.


Uhm.. That still doesn't justify running Deed over Damnation, since the latter takes care of the creatures beating you down as well, but WITHOUT destroying your own CB.

I am not saying that Deed is a bad card at all, it's just not always the right choice.

[Bardo]

That still doesn't justify running Deed over Damnation, since the latter takes care of the creatures beating you down as well, but WITHOUT destroying your own CB.

You're conveniently cherry-picking to make a point that I'm not making. I stated my reasons why Deed > Damnation above (post 1099). I then stated that CB provides a much different function in the deck than either Deed or Damnation offer (post 1109). I concluded that I've never once blown up my own CB with a Deed, and that the concern is more abstract than practical.

None of this is to say that you shouldn't test Damnation over Deed in my list, just that the concern of nuking your own goodies is unwarranted.

[Sigar]

My only point is that sometimes a WoG effect is better than Deed.

[Bardo]

My only point is that sometimes a WoG effect is better than Deed.

Well, sure. And there are times when Rend Spirit is better than StP, but that doesn't mean we should play it. :)

The question: Do the relative benefits of Deed over Damnation, in this particular deck, compensate for its relative weaknesses. Given the randomness of Legacy, the power and efficiency of non-creature permanents that are vulnerable to Deed, and all its other upsides, Deed is overall the correct card. For the same reason, I would (and do) play Engineered Explosives over Damnation in this format too.

[Sigar]

Well, sure. And there are times when Rend Spirit is better than StP, but that doesn't mean we should play it. :)


-_- meh?



...I would (and do) play Engineered Explosives over Damnation in this format too.

Wow! That's a huge generalisation. You cannot really compare it that way. EE, Deed and Damnation/WoG all serves different purposes. In some decks you actually do NOT wanna blow up your own artifacts and enchantments, while in others (like landstill) it doesn't matter.

In your deck in particular I wouldn't run Deed due to EE, Shackles, Tarmogoyf and Counterbalance. And it's guaranteed that your opponent will board in Needles too, which makes Damnation even better.

Don't get me wrong, my goal is not to "win" the thread or say your deck is bad. I just like to discuss different options and card choices.

Have you considered a singleton Crucible of Worlds and maybe 1-2 wastelands?

[galeng]

Here's my thoughts on deed vs. damnation:

Damnation:
1. If you're playing countertop, it avoids bombing your own lock pieces.
2. Can't be needled or stifled.
3. The creatures can't be regenerated.

Pernicious Deed:
1. Can kill anything other than planeswalkers and lands, and in some cases lands too (mishra's factory) making it very versitile.
2. Works much better in the legacy format, where creatures are a small fraction of threats, unlike standard where every deck is creature based. (Legacy has goblins but they play around WoG effects all day)
3. Cheaper CC (3 vs 4), meaning it comes down faster and it's harder to disrupt.
4. Easier to cast mana wise (seriously) when you're playing a 4c or the 3c build. (BG is usually more flexible than BB)
5. It's a permanent so you can drop it and save it for when you need it.
6. It is almost never a dead card where damnation is very frequently dead. The only matchup where deed is useless is mono red pure burn and some combo (damnation would be dead here as well).

For these reasons deed is best suited to the legacy format making it argueably the best sweeper for landstill. For a lot of the same reasons above, EE would also be much better than damnation. However in standard control I'd run a WoG or damnation in a second over deed or EE (asuming they're somehow allowed in the format) just because creatures with fluctuating mana costs are much more prevelent prevelant.

Deed is more of a format decision than a metagame decision.

[thefreakaccident]

In the UWb version Wrath of god is better... but seriously now, generalizations are never good, especially when it comes to an archtype so diverse as landstill.

It is the ultimate metagaming deck, as you can always customize it to do well in all environments.

Simply saying Deed is better than wrath/damnation is just being a bad player or bad person (you take your pick).

Deed is more versatile, yes, but you also have to put into account what you are trying to accomplish and what you are going to see across the table from you.

Deed is worse against goblins (slower and more mana intensives if you really look at it), and is pointless (well just as effective as wrath) if they are playing threshold (wrath is just as effective here, unless they have CB, in which case you still have EE).

Regenerating creatures can be annoyances as well (troll is a big pain for Ugwb), but wrath kills it without problication.

I am not saying one is better than the other overall, just that you have to take the entire picture into account, and what build of landstill you are playing...

Please no more generalizations, it hurts the thread more than helps.

[Jak]

Deed is worse against goblins (slower and more mana intensives if you really look at it), and is pointless (well just as effective as wrath) if they are playing threshold (wrath is just as effective here, unless they have CB, in which case you still have EE).

I disagree. Hitting Vials is pretty huge.

I haven't tested either, but I think if you know when to pop it, Deed is the clear winner. It is like playing Akroma's Vengeance and Humility. When you are in control, don't play Vengeance. Bardo has obviously had success with Deed so I would listen to him until you test it.

[Shawn]

Deed is worse against goblins...

Regenerating creatures can be annoyances as well (troll is a big pain for Ugwb), but wrath kills it without problication.


1. I disagree. Being able to kill their Vials along with the horde of goblins is very strong. Deed turns your countermagic back on, whereas Wrath only kills creatures.

2. Is this seriously a problem?


Deed is overall the correct card. For the same reason, I would (and do) play Engineered Explosives over Damnation in this format too.

I don't agree with this, in some metas at least. In the two or three color versions, Explosives excels against thresh and fish, but I'd found myself in many situations against random decks, goblins, or survival where I wish I had a boardsweeper, rather than an EE. Deed is obviously more powerful in both matchups, but I don't run the 4c version. I'd run them if such a card was available in a 3 color version, though. (Disk, Vengeance?) Explosives is a nice Disenchant-effect, but isn't always a board-sweeper against some decks like it is against thresh.

[Mister Agent]

-_- meh?



Wow! That's a huge generalisation. You cannot really compare it that way. EE, Deed and Damnation/WoG all serves different purposes. In some decks you actually do NOT wanna blow up your own artifacts and enchantments, while in others (like landstill) it doesn't matter.

In your deck in particular I wouldn't run Deed due to EE, Shackles, Tarmogoyf and Counterbalance. And it's guaranteed that your opponent will board in Needles too, which makes Damnation even better.

Don't get me wrong, my goal is not to "win" the thread or say your deck is bad. I just like to discuss different options and card choices.

Have you considered a singleton Crucible of Worlds and maybe 1-2 wastelands?

Bardo's arguement is not really that big of a generalization if you really think about it. Mainly because Bardo has explained before why he prefers deed and EE over wrath and damnation. When he states generalizations he backs them up with valid points which is one of the reasons why Bardo is a strong legacy article writer on starcity games IMO.

I also think that saying your opponent is guaranteed to board in pithing needles is a bold generalization to an extent though. Also just because the opposing player is boarding in pithing needles doesn't mean you should play wrath/damnation over deed and EE. Their drawbacks are quite below their utility agenda in Legacy.

I am also with Bardo here I generally think deed and EE are better because they are more flexible to cast compared to damnation and wrath on a consistent basis. Deed is also generally more efficient against cephalid breakfast, countertop thresh, goblins, and etc for obvious reasons then wog/damnation.

Although, I still think uwb landstill is still an strong choice for the metagame since the deck pretty much brings consistency and versatility to work in one system.

[Mental]

Sounds more like chalice was MVP. Extirpate would have won you theese games just as easily, and couldnt have been countered like your hardcast leyline. Also, B >>> 2BB

Wrong. I can only Extirpate after he loams, so he would already get the 3 lands back. And then he can Burning Wish for Loam again. So really Leyline is a lot better against 43.lands, because it prevents loam from ever being relevant.

[Jiaozy]

I board out CounterTop + Spell Snares for 4x BEB + 4x Plagues. CounterTop is jank against Gobs.While I agree that Counterbalance is somewhat pointless against Goblins, why would you board out Divining Top, like ever?

The card is pretty awesome in it's own right, especially with the high amount of fetchlands played in the deck.
It lets you dig for answers and fixes your draws for a mere mana when you don't need it.

I'm not sure it's a card that can EVER be considered to be sided out...
Maybe if you're playing 4 and need the slot, but I see no other situation in which I'd board out the Tops.

[Sigar]

I also think that saying your opponent is guaranteed to board in pithing needles is a bold generalization to an extent though.


Not really. If they play Needle, they will board it in.

[Mister Agent]

Not really. If they play Needle, they will board it in.

Well saying your opponent is "guaranteed" to board needle compared to saying "if" they run needle do not really mean the samething. Just wanted to point that out.

[Arsenal]

Well saying your opponent is "guaranteed" to board needle compared to saying "if" they run needle do not really mean the samething. Just wanted to point that out.

With the majority of decks running Needle in SB, the distinction is quite minimal. Very few decks choose not to run Needle in SB... unless they have maindeck tools that deal with EE/Deed/Top/etc.

[Mister Agent]

With the majority of decks running Needle in SB, the distinction is quite minimal. Very few decks choose not to run Needle in SB... unless they have maindeck tools that deal with EE/Deed/Top/etc.

Yeah that is obvious but that is not was I trying to get at though. My point is deed and EE are strong board clearers in legacy. Deed and EE are still played because they outweigh their draw backs with their flexiblity and versatility. Also when they are supplemented with other removal just adds on to their overall efficiency as well. But that should be obvious anyway.

[mossivo1986]

I think we should do some compatisons for humility and deed. Not necc which is per say better, but win percentages when they are in play. How often do you lose a game with garruck in play? Howoften do you lose a game with humility in play? ect.ect.

[thefreakaccident]

I don't think I have ever lost a game with a resolved humility (I don't try to resolve them against the mirror unless they play goyf/garruck).

Humility stops every deck that runs critters in their tracks, then add to the fact that you can run supplementing removal in the form of wrath, EE, and swords to plowshares, creatures are never an issue for a competant landstill player (or at least shouldn't be).

[kicks_422]

Just something I've been tweaking lately. Off the bat, I think the Island count is too low for Shackles to be effective, so that might get cut. Otherwise, I think it looks fine.

// Lands
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [R] Underground Sea
3 [R] Tropical Island
2 [UNH] Island
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
4 [MOR] Mutavault

// Spells
4 [MM] Counterspell
2 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
4 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
3 [IN] Fact or Fiction
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [SC] Stifle

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip

4 EE and 4 Deeds... Yeah, I love blowing stuff up.

[Illissius]

I think the Island count is too low for Shackles to be effective

I think the Island count is too low for the deck to be effective.

[Tacosnape]

I think the Island count is too low for the deck to be effective.

Well, just to play Devil's Advocate for a minute, not necessarily. What if he cuts Counterspell in order to support an ungodly powerful Standstill support base?

Shackles should definitely be cut too, though.

[Illissius]

If he cuts Counterspell, then sure, maybe; I was responding to the list as presented. Deed and EE are also on pretty shaky ground, though. Remember, the UG Threshold decks ran 14 colored sources as well, on the basis that a Tropical and a Wasteland is enough to cast a Tarmogoyf or anything else in the deck. They didn't run anything requiring more than one colored mana, and adding more colorless mana in the form of manlands isn't going to help with that either.

Tangentially, if you do run 4 EE, I'd say an Academy Ruins is almost mandatory, whatever you decide to cut for it.

[Nocco]

So, my local shop is hosting a Legacy Tourney this Sunday. I have only played in actual Legacy tournaments twice (borrowing Fish from a friend both times), since they are almost never any held near Indianapolis. But I have been looking over threads here for about 3 months now, and think that I have a pretty firm grasp on the popular decks and how to play with and against them. I'm not a noob; I've been playing on and off for about 6 years and my construceted rating hovers around 1850. I have been toying around w/ Landstill lately, and decided that I wanted to play it in the tournament. Here is my proposed build:

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Nantuko Monastery/Academy Ruins/Mutavault
4 Wasteland

4 Standstill
4 FOW
4 Brainstorm
3 Stifle
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Counterspell
4 Pernicious Deed
4 STP
2 Garruk/Other Finisher
2 EE/Shriekmaw/Diabolic Edict
2 Crucible of Worlds

SB
X Engineered Plague
X Meddling Mage
X Krosan Grip
X Blue Elemental Blast
X Extirpate

I'm actually not sure what the turnout will be like at the tournament. The only deck that I know will be there is my friend playing Belcher. We've tested the matchup and I pretty much know what to expect for it. I'm sure that there will be a number of Goblins at the tournament since they are (relatively) cheap and don't take too much skill to pilot mediocrely. Any suggestions on my build would be greatly appreciated!

[klaus]

@:NOCCO

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Nantuko Monastery/Academy Ruins/Mutavault
4 Wasteland--------------------------This is overkill! I'd play 2 - cut the others for basic Island and another Monastery.

4 Standstill
4 FOW
4 Brainstorm
3 Stifle
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Counterspell
4 Pernicious Deed
4 STP
2 Garruk/Other Finisher------------------Garruk is best with other creatures to protect him immediately (Goyf is a rather standard choice here) - u might wanna play Shriekmaws in those 2 slots with given you add another Monastery.
2 EE/Shriekmaw/Diabolic Edict---------Definitely go for 2 EE - Otherwise Needle on Deed would be GG - also it's a extraordinarily versatile card.
2 Crucible of Worlds------------------Cut them. You don't depend as much on manlands with your 2nd 3rd kill options. Maybe add a singleton Life from the Loam.

SB
3 Engineered Plague
4 Meddling Mage
2 Krosan Grip
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Extirpate
(Note: all for a random Meta)

Hope that helps.

Klaus

[EternalDragon09]

So, my local shop is hosting a Legacy Tourney this Sunday. I have only played in actual Legacy tournaments twice (borrowing Fish from a friend both times), since they are almost never any held near Indianapolis. But I have been looking over threads here for about 3 months now, and think that I have a pretty firm grasp on the popular decks and how to play with and against them. I'm not a noob; I've been playing on and off for about 6 years and my construceted rating hovers around 1850. I have been toying around w/ Landstill lately, and decided that I wanted to play it in the tournament. Here is my proposed build:

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Nantuko Monastery/Academy Ruins/Mutavault
4 Wasteland

4 Standstill
4 FOW
4 Brainstorm
3 Stifle
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Counterspell
4 Pernicious Deed
4 STP
2 Garruk/Other Finisher
2 EE/Shriekmaw/Diabolic Edict
2 Crucible of Worlds

SB
X Engineered Plague
X Meddling Mage
X Krosan Grip
X Blue Elemental Blast
X Extirpate

I'm actually not sure what the turnout will be like at the tournament. The only deck that I know will be there is my friend playing Belcher. We've tested the matchup and I pretty much know what to expect for it. I'm sure that there will be a number of Goblins at the tournament since they are (relatively) cheap and don't take too much skill to pilot mediocrely. Any suggestions on my build would be greatly appreciated!

Ok so here is the deal your maindeck seems to be mostly ok however i will give you some enlightenment on legacy and landstill.
Legacy's meta game includes about four very popular deck archtypes being: Threshold variants, Goblin variants, breakfast variants, and obviously landstill variants.(occasionally some rock to but it doesnt matter.) You then have to look at every card in the deck and say, "how is this relevant/not in each match up." then analyze what your win percentage is against each deck then adjust accordingly. my list is similar to yours but with minor altercations.

4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Wasteland
2 Nantuko Monastery
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Island
4 Flooded Strand

4 Force of Will
4 Standstill
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Fact or Fiction
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Garruk Wildspeaker
2 Innocent Blood
4 Counterspell
3 Stifle
2 Crucible of Worlds
4 Brainstorm

Sideboard:
3 Meddling Mage
4 Engineered Plague
3 Duress
3 Krosan Grip
2 Blue Elemental Blast

So there is my list basically my land count changed from your list. I run 2 Monastery instead of a random 1 u need at least 6 manlands, the problem i have found with most landstill builds is they always run short of a single blue mana so i added one. Garruk is an exceptional addition to the deck as well, he makes the mirror more favorable to you and threshold generating awesome tempo and create a 3/3 every 2 turns isnt too bad. Goblins can be one of your hardest match-ups post board however your sideboard includes 4 plague and 3 grip via( Thorn, Vial, needle.) It can just be to devastating for them to handle especially with CA. And the last thing that i saw that i thought i should mention was extirpate is good but duress is better. against threshold and breakfast it just pulls that annoying answer they have. Most people will call me stupid for running duress instead of the new thoughseize but i find it bad in these type of situations pending it wouldnt be horrible in the breakfast match.

[Tacosnape]

@Edragon: So you just decide to take a loss against anything packing Loam or any graveyard-based combo? Or anything like The Rock that aims to knock your kill conditions out of your hand and Extirpate them?

You need Extirpate to defend against this sort of thing.

[EternalDragon09]

@Edragon: So you just decide to take a loss against anything packing Loam or any graveyard-based combo? Or anything like The Rock that aims to knock your kill conditions out of your hand and Extirpate them?

You need Extirpate to defend against this sort of thing.

how does rock aggro plan on killing all my win conditions while 6 of the 8 are land???? and i run crucible...... besides its not that popular anyways ways so you hit one in a tournament and whatever...not a big deal just play smart and you will win! i have personally played 43land.dec and not had a problem with maze of ith and loam .

[aTn]

I have a few questions concerning the manabase in Bardo's UGb list.

The manabase:

4 Mishra’s Factory
4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Island
1 Swamp
1 Academy Ruins

While playing against mana denial (Wasteland, Port), did you have trouble with this manabase. In my testing, the opposing player often prevented me from UU rather easily (early game). How did you choose to run exactly 6 fetchlands ? I ask the question because I'd be more inclined to go with -1 Underground Sea, -1 Tropical Island, +1 P. Delta, +1 F. Strand. I understand that Tropical Island is rather important (since you can't fetch for a basic forest), but I'd rather keep an uncracked fetch than see Trop. Island being wasted. Hope I'm being clear and that I don't seem to be nitpicking.

[Bardo]

I have a few questions concerning the manabase in Bardo's UGb list.

The manabase:

4 Mishra’s Factory
4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Island
1 Swamp
1 Academy Ruins

-1 Sea, -1 Trop; +1 Delta, +1 Strand is fine. When I built the manabase, it was more to accomodate all of my funky experiments (Tombstalker, Gigapede, and wanted easy access to BB or GG if the needed arose). The mana has undergone testing vs. Port and Wasteland and it's otherwise fine, since a lot of the LD is going to be directed to your Factories anyhow.

So, that's what I'd say, given that I'm not running Garruk or Tombstalker and the only double mana costs (of the same color) are in blue (CSpell, Cbalance), maxing your fetchlands and cutting one each of the duals is sound.

I would always rather throw out a turn 1 Delta than turn 1 Sea, that's for sure.


Hope I'm being clear and that I don't seem to be nitpicking.

How dare you question me?! Heh. Kidding. You can usually tell trolls from everyone else by the tone--and your critique is valid, so it's appreciated. :) I'll try the new manabase when I get home today.

4 Mishra’s Factory
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Island
1 Swamp
1 Academy Ruins


Have you considered a singleton Crucible of Worlds and maybe 1-2 wastelands?

Yeah, I've flirted with the 2x Crucible, 3-4 Waste configuration, but once I dropped them to run the 4c version of the deck with StP and Monastery in the main and Meddling Mage in the side, I haven't gone back to the Wasteland build now that it's 3-colors again. It definitely helps in the mirror, and can be crushing against polychromatic decks with a low land count (like Thresh), but this decks is really good against them anyway. The only place Crucible/Wasteland would appreciably help is in the mirror.


Deed is overall the correct card. For the same reason, I would (and do) play Engineered Explosives over Damnation in this format too.


I don't agree with this, in some metas at least. In the two or three color versions, Explosives excels against thresh and fish, but I'd found myself in many situations against random decks, goblins, or survival where I wish I had a boardsweeper, rather than an EE.

Yeah, I meant to say "in this deck, in my meta" rather than "in this format." My mistake.


While I agree that Counterbalance is somewhat pointless against Goblins, why would you board out Divining Top, like ever?

Well, I'm not sure that I'm right. I do know that Top is a champ in the long game, but early on, it's slow, does nothing when you cast it and is quite mana-intensive to use profitably in the early game, especially if your lands are getting targetted by Port/Wasteland. Basically, I'm not sold on Top vs. quick aggro. And I think we can all agree that CBalance is pretty insufficient vs. Goblins.

[landstill101]

Yeah, I've flirted with the 2x Crucible, 3-4 Waste configuration, but once I dropped them to run the 4c version of the deck with StP and Monastery in the main and Meddling Mage in the side, I haven't gone back to the Wasteland build now that it's 3-colors again. It definitely helps in the mirror, and can be crushing against polychromatic decks with a low land count (like Thresh), but this decks is really good against them anyway. The only place Crucible/Wasteland would appreciably help is in the mirror.



Hi everyone, I would like to just to say hello to all of the landstill players, this is my first time posting and I was just refered to this site a couple of weeks ago, and after wasting alot of time reading from the beginning I have finally gotten to the current stuff, no further adue, bardo what version are you running right now, your 3c build that you posted around page 53 or have you switced to a 4c build by what I think this part of your post says? I'm probably just reading it wrong, but If so could you give us a list of your 4c build that you are using right now. Also to talk about the land destruction that is being talked about, has anyone thought of instead of changing the lands around instead add stifle, I have noticed many pro players have done this and I noticed the BHWW deck has this. In my own testing I have loved having stifle when I played with it and I deffinitly put it in if I feel there is a stink of wasteland running around.

[Bardo]

For a couple of weeks I was continuously going back and forth between the 3 and 4 color lists and then settled on 3c for the time being. They all have relative merits, which become more or less pronounced depending on your field, the prevelance of nonbasic hate, etc.

Also, it should go without saying that every version of Landstill is customizable and no one size fits all. Here's my current three color version, which I love:

"Mostly Monoblue Control"
"The Vorosh Deck"
"U/g/b Landstill"
by Bardo

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Sensei’s Divining Top

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance
2 Spell Snare (flex slot)

3 Pernicious Deed
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Vedalken Shackles

4 Tarmogoyf

4 Mishra’s Factory
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Island
1 Swamp
1 Academy Ruins

Sideboard
4 Engineered Plague
3 Dark Confidant
3 Hydroblast
3 Extirpate
2 Krosan Grip

And the four color version:

Witch-Maw Landstill
by Bardo*

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Fact or Fiction

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Diabolic Edict

4 Tarmogoyf

4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra’s Factory
2 Nantuko Monastery
1 Island

Sideboard
4 Engineered Plague
4 Meddling Mage
3 Hydroblast
2 Krosan Grip
2 Extirpate

* Credit here to Tacosnape for the manabase and general ideas and the BHWW crew for the whole U/b/g/w concept.

Flexible slots and alternate configurations include the following cards (between the maindeck and sideboard):

Garruk Wildspeaker
Lilianna Vess
Wasteland & Crucible of Worlds
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Tolaria West
Treetop Village
Maze of Ith
Duress / Thoughtseize
Leyline of the Void / Planar Void
Chalice of the Void
Smother
Diabolic Edict
Stifle
Spell Snare
Trygon Predator
Tombstalker
Shriewmaw
Yixlid Jailer

I've tested all of these out (though I need more testing with Garruk) and am pretty confident with the lists above.

[aTn]

Thanks for the reply Bardo. I've tested the 'new' manabase against Goblins and I like it a lot. Also, playing 8 fetches might mystically help getting Tombstalker out earlier (I'm playing two copies in the Spell Snare slots).

[Media314r8]

how does rock aggro plan on killing all my win conditions while 6 of the 8 are land????[/COLOR]

Extirpate Reads:
Oracle Text:
"Split Second. Choose target card in a graveyard other than a basic land card. Search its owner's graveyard, hand, and library for all cards with the same name as that card and remove them from the game. Then that player shuffles his or her library."

They can take your man-lands, so yes, extirpate CAN wreck you with hand disruption. Many people assume it's non-LAND, but it is any card other than basics. Perhaps this is why some builds of UG thresh are running 1 copy of breeding pool, no?

[Bardo]

Thanks for the reply Bardo. I've tested the 'new' manabase against Goblins and I like it a lot. Also, playing 8 fetches might mystically help getting Tombstalker out earlier (I'm playing two copies in the Spell Snare slots).

Actually, I haven't tinkered with the mana since I added CounterTop, and Sensei's Divining Top loves shuffle effects. So, let's see:

+ More shuffle effects for Brainstorm and Divining Top
+ Greater chance for a +1/+1 for Goyf
+ Lesser chance of needing to play a dual on turn 1
+ Higher number of "artificial" basic Islands
+ Overall greater mana consistency

Seems like a win-win-win. So it is:

4 Mishra's Factory
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Island (Unhinged, FWIW)
1 Swamp (ditto)
1 Academy Ruins

[Mictlantecuhtli]

+ More shuffle effects for Brainstorm and Divining Top
+ Greater chance for a +1/+1 for Goyf
+ Lesser chance of needing to play a dual on turn 1
+ Higher number of "artificial" basic Islands
+ Overall greater mana consistency

Seems like a win-win-win. So it is:

4 Mishra's Factory
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Island (Unhinged, FWIW)
1 Swamp (ditto)
1 Academy Ruins

Seems like an excellent mana base. Clean and solid. I do think the stability of the mana base is something to seriously consider before going 4-colour, especially in a Blood Moon meta.

That's why lately i have been playing a more controllish UW build. I'm quite happy with only two colours so far - it makes the deck very stable and resilient against most decks i've played against. More testing is needed though, especially some matches agains Eva Green with MD Extirpate have been have been quite a nightmare.

Also, i managed to include a single Wasteland along with the singleton Academy Ruins, which i can fetch with Tolaria West. I'm experimenting with 4 Enlightened Tutor on MB (much like Zvi's Worlds build) with Crucible of Worlds, Shackles, Moat and Explosives as targets and so far so good. But as i said, i haven't had the time to test more thoroughly.

By the way, what's FWIW?

[kicks_422]

For what it's worth. And I do agree that Unhinged lands are the sexiest.

Well, Bardo's deck has Counterbalance to at least have that chance of countering those Extirpates. I guess it's all about anticipating when that Extirpate's coming. I agree with the solid manabase as well.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

Exactly. Extirpate is much less of a problem once you have a Counterbalance in play. The match is not unwinnable but a "Swamp -> Ritual -> Hymn -> Extirpate" start is certainly annoying. If you're unlucky they'll take out your Counterbalances that way; if you Force the Hymn then they're likely pick FoW. I did run into that a couple of times during testing the other day and wasn't happy as it always makes it harder for the Landstill player to establish control before it's too late.

[landstill101]

4 Mishra's Factory
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Island (Unhinged, FWIW)
1 Swamp (ditto)
1 Academy Ruins

(if you havn't noticed this is the list of lands bardo posted a couple of posts ago) This post is more to bardo, and anyone who plays tarmogoyf, right now I play 2 types of landstill, goyfstill that is close to bardos 4c list, and a 3c cunningwish build. And after talking to a guy that has played goblins for a long time and is top 5 in our state for legacy, (his motto is, "I will play any deck as long as it has 4 goblin lackeys in it.") and he was talking about testing out a 3 color goblins list (adding black), after thinking on this for a couple of minutes, I thought, hey what could I do to stop him from killing my goyfs. Well after thinking it over, what was the main reason wasteland was the nutz in legacy, 3c threshold decks, most landstill decks, and those 3c and 4c red aggro decks. If goblin decks try to make a comback they need to do it with 3 colors which leads to the whole point of what this post is. I'm thinking of changing to 3c goyfstill and go off of bardo's list but add one thing.

4 Mishra's Factory
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 forest
3 wasteland

I added wasteland which will I think in the end of all of the talk of goblins might come back, because it will force goblins deck to move less to having rashidan ports and wastelands to having now 8 duels and more fetchs to make sure they can get their black to stop goyf and green to stop plague.
Here are a couple of landbases talked about on the goblin thread

4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Mountain
2 Taiga
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
.
.
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [b] Badlands
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [7E] Mountain (1)
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [P3] Swamp (2)
2 [MM] Rishadan Port
.
.
4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [b] Badlands
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
5 [7E] Mountain
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
2 [b] Taiga


all 3 of those lists are pretty much dropping port, which helps us have more of the mana we want, and they run a bunch of nonbasic, such as the duels which now I can wasteland and easily keep them off one color, I run stifle, so i can stifle the wastelands, and the fetchlands early to give me a lead. I actually think that the wastelands will slow down the goblin matchup now more than engineered plague would. They are still running a bunch of basics but when it comes down to it alot of the time, you know if you can win against a goblin play by turn 5, (usually because if ur still alive and not down to under 5 life your usually in good shape) with wasteland, you can keep them from having black, keeps all of our creatures alive, keep them off green, keeps your plagues in play, and also you could keep them from getting to 4 lands to get out things such as ringleader. I'm probably talkin through my ears but I think this is a very good meta move if your tourny place starts goin crazy again with goblins.

[Bardo]

I added wasteland which will I think in the end of all of the talk of goblins might come back, because it will force goblins deck to move less to having rashidan ports and wastelands to having now 8 duels and more fetchs to make sure they can get their black to stop goyf and green to stop plague.

You want Wasteland in a few match-ups (particularly the mirror and especially when running Crucible/LFTL), but Goblins isn't one of them. With Warchief, Goblin Lackey and AEther Vial, they can operate with surprisingly little mana, unlike Landstill which is very greedy when it comes to its operating requirements. As such Landstill wants to continually make its land drops against aggro, not trade its land drops for theirs. Also by dropping your basic count and replacing them with Wasteland, you're just making the deck more vulnerable, not the other way around.

If you want to add Wasteland, do it using your spell slots, without affecting your land count.

With the quantity of basics and fetchlands my version of the deck is running -- the goblins MU is satisfactory. Goyf provides an excellent early-game wall and mid/late game finisher; Deed resets the board (albeit slowly); and if you get the mana together, Vedalken Shackles is extremely annoying to them. Postboard you get 4x Plague and BEBs to manage the board and force through damage.

[holkenborg]

I played a tournament today (13 participants, but high skills) with this deck:

1 Academy Ruins
1 Faerie Conclave
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Plains
2 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Tolaria West
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Wasteland

1 Eternal Dragon

4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Cunning Wish
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
3 Hoofprints of the Stag
2 Moat
4 Standstill
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Wrath of God

Sideboard
4 Duress
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Extirpate
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Hydroblast
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Return to Dust
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Thirst for Knowledge (because of Hoofprints better than Fact or Fiction)
1 Vindicate

(note: I didn't see any goblins, meathooks, empty-the-warrens, so I changed my 3 Engineered Plagues last minute to 1 Engineered Explosives, 1 Duress and 1 Vindicate).

Round 1: Spring Tide: 2-0. I won because the first time he didn't drew the right cards and I countered (FoWed) the right cards. Hoofprints got counters because he broke my Standstill. Second game I used Extirpate on his first countered High Tide.

1-0: 3 points

Round 2: Doran Folk: 1-1. I would have won with 10 additional minutes. First game I had to mulligan to six and he disrupted me heavily with two Thoughtseizes, followed by Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant, Vindicate on land. I can't catch up. The third game I was leading long-run, but ran out of time.

1-0-1: 4 points

Round 3: Survival Madness: 2-0. Cunning Wish --> Extirpate on Wonder followed by Moat. Game 1 :-). Game two he had to break several Standstills and I just controlled the match. Easy.

2-0-1: 7 points

Round 4: Angry Survival (Tradewind Rider): 2-0. The first game he had to mulligan and didn't drew anything special. I played WoG for two times, Extirpated his Genesis and Squee. Second game I just controlled. He couldn't really cast anything scary. I had card advantage all along and my 4/4 elemental tokens flew over him.

3-0-1: 10 points

Round 5: UGr Thresh: 0-2. First game I had to mulligan, drew crap only and lost. Second game I drew better, but he was just too fast. I casted Moat which could only be countered by a Daze (he had 1 card in hand, just drawn..) and gues what... haha.

3-1-1: 10 points

Round 6: Aluren: 2-0. First game I counter his Aluren and he didn't expect my Cunning Wish --> Extirpate --> Game. Second game I side in Duress and Extirpate. I keep on disrupting, had 7 cards in hand constantly, just attacked with 1 Factory and control the game.

4-1-1: 13 points.

I became third (2nd player also had 13 points, but better resistance).

My conclusions of the deck:
- Cunning Wish --> Extirpate wins games.
- The come-into-play-tapped abilities of Tolaria West and Faerie Conclave is frustrating..
- Academy Ruins is good!
- Very good control deck, but very quick decks (UGr Thresh in my case) are difficult to deal with.
- Moat wins random games, but Thresh-decks side in Krosan Grip (of course), so I sided Moat out. I preferred the additional Engineered Explosives and Duress.

[Ch@os]

Nice List, have you ever considered to play Bitterblossom for one Hoofprint?
And another Enlightened Tutor for the random Thirst for Knowledge? Also i would cut the Faerie Conclave for another basic Island. And just play a single CoW, instead 2x E.Tutor MB.

[Bardo]

- The come-into-play-tapped abilities of Tolaria West and Faerie Conclave is frustrating..

Yeah, I grudgingly dropped Tolaria West and the Conclave for this reason. The cards looks great on paper and are occasionally sweet (esp. the transmute land), but they created too much early game inconsistency for my liking.

Also, how were Hoofprints? You didn't mention them being terribly relevant in your report. How often did they win games in places where Decree (etc.) wouldn't?

You know, I'll try Cunning Wish in my Spell Snare slots. I keep on looking for good cards in that slot and haven't been able to find anything satisfying.

[holkenborg]

@ Ch@os: First, I didn't consider Bitterblossom to be honest. I think the life loss is too hard and I prefer 4/4 flying creatures :-P. The strategy I use is to play Hoofprints and then just wait / dominate / control the board. As a control player you have time and with Brainstorm/Standstill/Thirst for Knowledge you'll get tokens soon enough.

I played a toolbox variant before this deck and IF I play Enlightend Tutor, I'd play three and make a whole toolbox around it. This Cunning Wish --> Enlightened Tutor is just used as a tool to get Moat / E.E. This deck focuses on Cunning Wish (--> Extirpate wins games) instead of Enlightend Tutor. Further, Enlightened Tutor costs a card, Cunning Wish doesn't.

@Bardo: I won all matches because of Hoofprints, except for game two against Aluren. That one I won with 1 Factory. You can't play Decree of Justice in this deck because of Moat, so you should play Humility then. I think both are playable, but need other cards around them.

Decree of Justice (and thereby Humility) I would play in a toolbox variant with 3 Enlightened Tutors main instead of Cunning Wishes..

[Nihil Credo]

You know, I'll try Cunning Wish in my Spell Snare slots.
Holy disregarding the curve, Batman! Why not something closer like Stifle? Or Thoughtseize, if the mana allows it?

Or was your deck a bit mana... mana-full? (What's the opposite of mana-hungry?)


You can't play Decree of Justice in this deck because of Moat, so you should play Humility then.

You can just hardcast Decree when Moat is in play. 4WW for an Angel or 6WW for two, and so on.

[Bardo]

Holy disregarding the curve, Batman! Why not something closer like Stifle? Or Thoughtseize, if the mana allows it?

You have the mana to do it, the question is one more of 'defensive deck speed' and how quick the control deck's response has to be. After a half-dozen games, Cunning Wish was definitely more of a cool trick and was occasionally awesome (pre-board Extirpate.) After an hour, the Wishes were dropped and replaced with the Spell Snares again. Maybe maindeck Extirpate?



You can just hardcast Decree when Moat is in play. 4WW for an Angel or 6WW for two, and so on.

Right, that's what I was thinking. You don't have to cycle Decree.

[holkenborg]

As I said, you COULD play Decree of Justice instead of Hoofprints, but I didn't. It's just a matter of taste I guess.

I must admit that Cunning Wish costs a lot of mana (especially when including the wished spell's cost), but it does give you mainbord Extirpate, mainbord Pulse of the Fields, mainbord Return to Dust, a rescue Slaughter Pact on Tarmogoyf and since Landstill is a slow deck (in my tournament I had one draw because of it and I've had this more times in the past) the first match becomes more important. At least, that's what I think.

[Tacosnape]

Instead of Cunning Wish, I've actually been playing with Living Wish. You know, the one that always goes "Damn Burning and Cunning, they get all the glory, and I just get to sit here, hoping Gamekeeper Salvagers makes a comeback." (You should hear the laments of Death Wish and Golden Wish. They're worse.)

Living Wish does everything I want a card to do. It provides me kill conditions, for one, which I seem to run out of a lot in my metagame. It gives me access to threat removal (Shriekmaw), artifact/enchantment removal (Harmonic Sliver), manabase fixing (Polluted Delta), graveyard hate (Yixlid Jailer or Loaming Shaman, still debating), the Wasteland 4C can't support otherwise, Tarmogoyf, a game 1 Meddling Mage, possibly a sweeper (Magus of the Disk, doubt this will be a good idea though), and as Nihil suggested, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale. All I lack is a good lifegainer, which unfortunately seems to be a choice between Hierarch and nothing.

It does it for one mana less than Cunning, albeit not at instant speed and it doesn't pitch to Force. However, the fact that it grabs a fetchland has saved my ass on multiple occasions.

[Bardo]

Yay. I fully endorse this product. Living Wish is also a staple in the Chapin deck (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/mf182) ([ctrl-F Chapin]).

For what it's worth, here's one of my all-time favorite MTG decks, using my favorite colors and cards:

“YMG Turbo Oath"
Pro Tour: Houston, 2002 [Extended]
First Place: Justin Gary

4 Brainstrom
4 Accumulated Knowledge
3 Fact or Fiction
2 Intution
1 Krosan Reclamation

4 Counterspell
3 Force Spike
2 Forbid
1 Foil
1 Mana Leak

2 Living Wish

4 Oath of Druids
3 Pernicious Deed

2 Cognivore

4 Treetop Village
4 Yavimaya Coast
4 Polluted Delta
2 Underground River
1 Swamp
2 Forest
7 Island

Sideboard
3 Engineered Plague
2 Palinchron
2 Dust Bowl
2 Gilded Drake
2 Naturalize
2 Powder Keg
2 Masticore

I'll experiment with 2x Living Wishes in the Spell Snare slots and tinker with my sideboard when I get home from work today.

[holkenborg]

You realize this is a type 1 deck?

It also isn't Landstill..

Actually, YMG 'Turbo Oath' is from Extended, not Vintage--but that wasn't my point--I was pointing out another U/b/g deck with heavy control elements that also runs Living Wish. (I also realize Oath isn't Legacy-legal). - Bardo

[Bardo]

I'm not sure if this is worth (losing Krosan Grip, mainly) and haven't found a good enchantment killing dude in green (i.e. not Harmonic Sliver), but let me know if you have thoughts on the U/g/b version of the deck with Living Wish.

Here's where I'm at:

"U/g/b Landstill" * with Living Wish
by Bardo

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance

3 Pernicious Deed
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Vedalken Shackles

2 Living Wish

4 Tarmogoyf

4 Mishra's Factory
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Island
1 Swamp
1 Academy Ruins

Sideboard
4 Engineered Plague
3 Hydroblast
3 Extirpate
1 Dark Confidant
1 Shriekmaw
1 Yixlid Jailer
1 Plague Spitter (?)
1 Flooded Strand

Feel free to suggest an entirely new sideboard too.

[Tacosnape]

@Bardo: I don't maindeck Tarmogoyf in the same build I maindeck Living Wish. So seeing as how your Goyfs are maindeck, what about a Volrath's Stronghold in your sideboard? It'd be a nice midgame wish target that'd let you recur Goyfs (Or previous wish targets) to your heart's content.

As far as UBG's replacement for Krosan Grip, um. Good question. I sort of relied on Harmonic Sliver to do this. Viridian Zealot seems pretty bad, as does Elvish/Druid Lyrist, as does Stern Proctor. The lack of white might make Living Wish a good bit worse (No Mage, no Harmonic), but I'll tinker around with it and see what I can come up with.

[Nihil Credo]

Sideboard
4 Engineered Plague
3 Hydroblast
3 Extirpate
1 Dark Confidant
1 Shriekmaw
1 Yixlid Jailer
1 Plague Spitter (?)
1 Flooded Strand

Feel free to suggest an entirely new sideboard too.

Do you need both Plague and Hydroblast? Sure you don't run spot removal, but with Tarmogoyf I would have assumed your Gobs matchup to be at least decent. And with six sweepers, you shouldn't need Plague for the other matchups (Ichorid, EtW).

(Of course, I'm still puzzled by how Deed and Counterbalance can work for you in the same deck, so my opinion isn't exactly grounded in experience.)

I would try:

4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Extirpate
3 Stifle*
1 Indrik Stomphowler**
1 Maze of Ith***
1 Yixlid Jailer
1 Flooded Strand
1 Shriekmaw****

* Helpful vs. Goblins, combo, and most control decks - basically everything but aggro-control and Stompy, both of which should be good-to-very-good matchups for you.

**Reasoning: you run six maindeck sweepers, and only two Living Wish, so I wouldn't waste two slots on A/E removal. Moreover, enchantments and artifacts usually don't put you on a clock (unless they're Equipment, but against those decks you're better off killing the creatures).

*** I suspect your build would make a better use of this than of Tabernacle. Overextend into my sweepers, bitch!

**** To Taco: I know I argued against this one, but that was with regards to your build, which already runs six cheap removal spells.

[Mental]

I'm not sure if this is worth (losing Krosan Grip, mainly) and haven't found a good enchantment killing dude in green (i.e. not Harmonic Sliver), but let me know if you have thoughts on the U/g/b version of the deck with Living Wish.

Here's where I'm at:

"U/g/b Landstill" * with Living Wish
by Bardo

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance

3 Pernicious Deed
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Vedalken Shackles

2 Living Wish

4 Tarmogoyf

4 Mishra's Factory
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Island
1 Swamp
1 Academy Ruins

Sideboard
4 Engineered Plague
3 Hydroblast
3 Extirpate
1 Dark Confidant
1 Shriekmaw
1 Yixlid Jailer
1 Plague Spitter (?)
1 Flooded Strand

Feel free to suggest an entirely new sideboard too.

Shit Taco, I just remembered that you never PMed me your Living Landstill list.

Anways, I tried doing this once and I was interesting. I never tested it enough to tell if it was good.

If I remember right, my SB was:
1 Yixlid Jailer
1 Dark Confidant
1 Shriekmaw
1 Maze of Ith
1 Tabernacle at Pendrall Vale
1 Mutavault
1 Viridian Shaman (blech)
4 Engineered Plague
4 Extirpate

Yeah. And I ran 3x Living Wish. No Standstills FTW. (Seriously, I hate that card).

[Tacosnape]

1 Indrik Stomphowler**

**Reasoning: you run six maindeck sweepers, and only two Living Wish, so I wouldn't waste two slots on A/E removal. Moreover, enchantments and artifacts usually don't put you on a clock (unless they're Equipment, but against those decks you're better off killing the creatures).


I totally forgot he existed. I've been away from BGR Survival too long. Is he too slow for the function? :5::g::g: is scary.

[Burr]

whats better in a wishboard slot:
slaughter pact
ghastly demise
condemn
diabolic edict

Which do you prefer?

[holkenborg]

1. Slaughter Pact
2. Diabolic Edict
3. Ghastly Demise
4. Condemn

Why: It's a choice between "target creature" and any creatue. I think this choice is dependent of the META. Is there a lot of Meathooks and Threshold, play Diabolic Edict, else play Slaughter Pact. It also depends on your mainbord. Condemn is the weakest I think.

[Burr]

yeah i see what your saying, but im not quite sure if slaughter pact is that much better than ghastly demise. does the 0 CC really help that much? i dont play in many tournaments but plan to attend one soon, so that is why im asking.

[Ch@os]

What do you guys think about this list: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=12845

It seems very strong to me, no clumpy CC4 enchantments, and very straight.

[holkenborg]

It looks like my new build:

1 Academy Ruins
1 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
3 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
2 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills

2 Garruk Wildspeaker

4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Cunning Wish
2 Damnation
3 Duress
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
4 Innocent Blood
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Standstill

Sideboard:
1 Damnation
1 Duress
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Extirpate
3 Hydroblast
1 Impulse
3 Krosan Grip
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Teferi's Response

I'm still testing on it, so I can't say it's an optimal configuration. I don't have (the money for) Thoughtseize, so that's why Duress..

[Mister Agent]

Anyway after some more testing with rbu landstill I decided to finally post it in the landstill thread if you will. I thought about building an landstill deck with burning wish for quite sometime indeed.

Here is my list:
Burning Landstill
By Kevin Liu

Lands
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
2 Swamp
4 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
2 Wasteland
2 Mutavault
1 Academy Ruins


Spells
2 Crucible of Worlds
4 Counterspell
3 Burning Wish
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
3 Damnation
2 Innocent Blood
4 Force of Will
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Nevinyrral's Disk
2 Fact or Fiction


Sideboard
1 Haunting Echoes
4 Engineered Plague
1 Rolling Earthquake
4 Extirpate
1 Pyroclasm
1 Meltdown
1 Perish
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Chainer's Edict

I am going to try to get countertop in the deck but for now it has not been that bad for me. Feel free to comment on the deck if you like. I am sure bardo remembers my previous rbu landstill list that gave him through pm awhile back.

[FredMaster]

Do those Disks and Damnations really replace the brutal force of Deeds in a decent way?

I'd run Smothers instead of the Innocent Blood btw, because you don't have spotremoval, that costs less than 4 mana (EE), which can be pretty lethal for Landstill, I assume.

[holkenborg]

I'd run Smothers instead of the Innocent Blood btw, because you don't have spotremoval, that costs less than 4 mana (EE), which can be pretty lethal for Landstill, I assume.

This is a point of debate for me in my deck in which I don't splash white so run 4 Innocent Bloods. There's a choice between:

1. Innocent Blood (1st turn Lackey, Mongoose..)
2. Diabolic Edict (same, but from 2nd turn..)
3. Smother (2 mana but target)
4. Ghastly Demise (can't turn 1, 2..)

I prefer the Innocent Blood because you can play him turn 1 as an early answer and that's where they are for. Mid- and lategame Landstill will have drawn either Deed, E.E. or Damnation.

What do you think?

[Illissius]

All the Extended decks with Living Wish use Stomphowler, FWIW, partly to better kill Counterbalance with (yeah, obviously they can still counter the Wish). Legacy is a faster format though.

[Mister Agent]

Do those Disks and Damnations really replace the brutal force of Deeds in a decent way?

I'd run Smothers instead of the Innocent Blood btw, because you don't have spotremoval, that costs less than 4 mana (EE), which can be pretty lethal for Landstill, I assume.

They don't really make up for the efficiency of deed no but disk is effective with other removal and also with academy ruins. Damnation is like the same reason you run wrath of god in uwb landstill.

Yeah well I am still working on the deck so obviously it isn't the most optimal build for a burning wish landstill list. Also innocent blood is still serviceable though even against threshold but I could obviously see your point with smother.

[thefreakaccident]

Disk + ruins is soooo devastating to decks that are trying to kill you via attack phase... deed is much better (not going to debate), but the fact that he can recurr his sweeper makes it just that much stringer in the deck.

Damnation is wrath and it is still good in landstill (well 2-3 color).

I think the deck looks good kevin!!

[Tacosnape]

One other point that doesn't seem to be made about Nevinyrral's Disk is that it's one of the only cards in existence that allow Landstill to get rid of a Blood Moon or Magus of the Moon without running a basic land. As such, in builds without Deed or even in builds with Deed, a Disk or two does not go amiss in certain metagames, especially with Blood Moon being the new Pithing Needle in terms of overplay.

[Mister Agent]

One other point that doesn't seem to be made about Nevinyrral's Disk is that it's one of the only cards in existence that allow Landstill to get rid of a Blood Moon or Magus of the Moon without running a basic land. As such, in builds without Deed or even in builds with Deed, a Disk or two does not go amiss in certain metagames, especially with Blood Moon being the new Pithing Needle in terms of overplay.

QFT

Seriously tacosnape made another good point about running nevin's disk in landstill. I also like nevin's disk because it has a generic cost and it doesn't stress the manabase too much. Besides I currently don't really have enough duals nor do I have deeds to push it into a rbu with green landstill list but my build has been testing well for me so far. I might play with the abyss as well since that card can be brutal against threshold.

[Wynk]

One other point that doesn't seem to be made about Nevinyrral's Disk is that it's one of the only cards in existence that allow Landstill to get rid of a Blood Moon or Magus of the Moon without running a basic land. As such, in builds without Deed or even in builds with Deed, a Disk or two does not go amiss in certain metagames, especially with Blood Moon being the new Pithing Needle in terms of overplay.

I agree with this assessment. I've been putting Disk into my landstill decks primarily as a response to Moons. Its a great card due to the colorless aspect and it doesn't require you to change your mana base in response to hate. Its a bit slow as Dragon Stompy can deal incredible amounts of damage very quickly, but its next to impossible to cast Deed with Moons on the table.

[Tacosnape]

I agree with this assessment. I've been putting Disk into my landstill decks primarily as a response to Moons. Its a great card due to the colorless aspect and it doesn't require you to change your mana base in response to hate. Its a bit slow as Dragon Stompy can deal incredible amounts of damage very quickly, but its next to impossible to cast Deed with Moons on the table.

Dragon Stompy can, but it might not. The absolute worst case is a turn one Magus on the play (them on the play, not you) followed by something else of medium size, usually Gathan Raiders or a Dragon. You'll still lose this.

However, there's still about a billion scenarios where a Disk will save you. The most common, for example, is that you Force the first Moon, then they drop a second one the very next turn. Or they drop a Blood Moon on turn one and aren't able to back it up with enough aggression to kill you before your disk clears the board, which is also a fairly common scenario if Landstill goes first. Or they don't topdeck the Moon until turn three or four.

As for other reasons people should look into Disk, Nevinyrral's Disk is also a godsend against Counterbalance. Threshold can stomp 0, 1, and 2 into the ground. They can sometimes hit 3cc, and every now and then they'll flip a Force over and stop 5cc. Against 4cc, most builds have absolutely nothing. The only thing you'll run into is the occasional Mystic Enforcer from UGW.

I'm not advocating for a minute that Disk replace Deed, but I do think it's gotten to the point where it's worth further investigation.

[Wynk]

I'm not disagreeing with the effectiveness of Disk. I have it as a 2 of in my deck. I'm just stating it will be, at times, too slow. Deed is more effective in general as its cheaper, which makes a great deal of difference in many matchups.

Deed is great but only if you can cast its mana colors reliably. You will never have that problem with Disk.

Disk, if you're still alive by turn 5, can and should win you the game. Sometimes you'll lose before then. Sometimes Dragon Stompy will be left with only land on the table and no cards in hand as Disk will get rid of all their board control permanents.

I also agree with the Counterbalance issue. I used to board Grips in to deal with them, but supercharging an EE or casting Disk will solve the issue just as well. They also interact well with Academy Ruins if they get countered.

[mossivo1986]

Taco:

To add to the disc....usion lol I would like to point out that in some lists, via 4c_wish_still disc might actually be a sb card because of its uniqueness in only a few matchups. The largest I see is stompy along with maybe thresh like you said.

Heres my list for the 102309482343 time.

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [UNH] Plains
1 [UNH] Island
1 [TE] Wasteland
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
1 [B] Scrubland
1 [B] Savannah
2 [B] Tropical Island
2 [B] Underground Sea
4 [B] Tundra

// Creatures
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
2 [TE] Humility
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [B] Counterspell
2 [DIS] Spell Snare

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Return to Dust
SB: 1 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
SB: 1 [IN] Fact or Fiction
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [B] Red Elemental Blast "It's actually a 2-2 split but for simplification I just run 4 online REB instead of 2 hydro 2 red."


Now if I were concerned with DStompy which im not sure I am or am not at this point I would cut out of the sb for it not the md.

sb alterations:

-1 return to dust
-4 Red elemental blast/ hydroblast combination

+1 Dismantling blow
+2 Disk
+2 meddling mage

Although I don't like only running 2 mage I can see where the effectiveness of disk might be good as well. Also note: Agent funk brought up oblivian ring for Dragon stompy on another forum I attend. Also a good idea. All of these get around challice of the void which is exactly what you want.

[Mister Agent]

Taco:

To add to the disc....usion lol I would like to point out that in some lists, via 4c_wish_still disc might actually be a sb card because of its uniqueness in only a few matchups. The largest I see is stompy along with maybe thresh like you said.

Heres my list for the 102309482343 time.

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [UNH] Plains
1 [UNH] Island
1 [TE] Wasteland
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
1 [B] Scrubland
1 [B] Savannah
2 [B] Tropical Island
2 [B] Underground Sea
4 [B] Tundra

// Creatures
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
2 [TE] Humility
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [B] Counterspell
2 [DIS] Spell Snare

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Return to Dust
SB: 1 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
SB: 1 [IN] Fact or Fiction
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [B] Red Elemental Blast "It's actually a 2-2 split but for simplification I just run 4 online REB instead of 2 hydro 2 red."


Now if I were concerned with DStompy which im not sure I am or am not at this point I would cut out of the sb for it not the md.

sb alterations:

-1 return to dust
-4 Red elemental blast/ hydroblast combination

+1 Dismantling blow
+2 Disk
+2 meddling mage

Although I don't like only running 2 mage I can see where the effectiveness of disk might be good as well. Also note: Agent funk brought up oblivian ring for Dragon stompy on another forum I attend. Also a good idea. All of these get around challice of the void which is exactly what you want.

Well to be frank, I don't think disk is necassary in a 4c landstill build that runs pernicious deeds especially if your going to run 3-4 hydroblasts/blue elemental blasts as well in the sideboard.

Blue elemental/hydroblasts are by in large much more cost efficient against Alix Hatfield's moonthresh list(which is an brilliant deck by the way) and dragonstompy then disk.
I personally think the nevin's disks are a waste of the slots in the board in that respect. This is all my opinions though but if the disks work fine for you I wouldn't change it.

[Tacosnape]

I don't like sideboarding Disk. I think Disk competes with Engineered Explosives' slot. They essentially fulfill the same purpose. Disk is much more powerful and better against Blood Moon. Engineered Explosives can generally deal with things quicker and will save your ass against Warrens. Each is an artifact designed to be able to deal with any nonland permanent you run across.

[Mister Agent]

Yeah sideboarding disks seems like a waste. Personally, if you want to run disk probably would be better to run it in the main instead. I think disk and pernicious deed now I think about it could supplement each other quite nicely.

[Berzerked]

Enlightened Tutor could always be used to grab any number of things, ranging from Deed/EE/Disk/Shackles/Humility to Standstill/Crucible to, I guess, CB/Top if you run it (though I don't, and wouldn't necessarily suggest it). I wouldn't run it as more than a 2-of, though, and I wouldn't replace FoF with it. I could see it replacing Living Wish in Taco's list if you didn't want to go that route. In mossivo's list you could replace the Spell Snares (which I think are pretty weak anyway), and drop an EE for Disk.

[mossivo1986]

With all respect to wasteland and the gentlemen who's name I can't spell from germany I am officially calling the version of landstill that I play "my" landstill list. Not that it's anything really innovative from the others, but I really get sick of telling people that it's not my list when I have changed it around and I have made some adjustments as I see fit.

That said i'll bring up the list for the last time to explain something.

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [UNH] Plains
1 [UNH] Island
1 [TE] Wasteland
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
1 [B] Scrubland
1 [B] Savannah
2 [B] Tropical Island
2 [B] Underground Sea
4 [B] Tundra

// Creatures
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
2 [TE] Humility
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [B] Counterspell
2 [DIS] Spell Snare

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Return to Dust
SB: 1 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
SB: 1 [IN] Fact or Fiction
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [B] Red Elemental Blast

Bezerker brought up the spell snare slot replacing it with enlightened tutor in my list. I think this is not a good idea. For multiple reasons. "litterally."

The one thing I look at when I see landstill lists are the numbers. I always shoot for those first.

In cast your wondering:

10 counters

4 counterspell
4 force
2 spell snare

10 draw/tutor
4 brainstorm
4 standstill
2 cunning wish

8-11 removal
4 swords to plowshars
3 perniscious deed
2 Engineered explosives
2 humility "Yes I count humility as removal."

24 lands
6 fetches
10 duals
2 basics
4 mishra
1 wasteland
1 academy ruins

win conditions
4 mishra
1 eternal dragon
1 academy ruins
2 decree of justice

Now to explain. The stability of this deck revolves around the card drawing meeting answers. In any given hand your likely to have a mix of counters removal land and draw spells. All of which are in vast numbers throughout the deck. The synergies are enough to draw into even more cards. Removing the spell snare/ stifle slot would make the deck alittle more inconsistent. On the draw I would have to depend more on swords to plowshars, counterspell, force of will, ect. ect. ect. Spell snare offers an effective answer that is not likely a dead card as most decks usually have a 2 drop thats a big deal. I ask you have you ever spell snared a bob or a goyf or a challice set to one. It's a big deal. Stifle is also a great card and in any major tourney I would probobly run stifle over spell snare, but my meta has alot of good two drop spells that need some counterin, not too mention the random threshhold players who drop on by. Overall the fit could not be replaced with a card like enlightened tutor because it would slow me down too much and bog up my draws. It's nice utility for answers, but I already have a wishboard. If anything id run a 1 of enlightened tutor in the sb as a wish target for x amount of answers, but that really is reaching a bit far. I'd rather play a fof if I had that much mana, which is wy I run it lmao.

Another thing is he was talking about dropping an ee for a 1 of disk, which I dont agree with either. The cost of EE is why it's soo efficient, anything. So I really don't think at best a 5th turn 1 of if it's in your hand and if it's the optimal play is your best bet.

thank you for your help though. It is appreciated. Sorry if it came out soo negative.

[Mister Agent]

With all respect to wasteland and the gentlemen who's name I can't spell from germany I am officially calling the version of landstill that I play "my" landstill list. Not that it's anything really innovative from the others, but I really get sick of telling people that it's not my list when I have changed it around and I have made some adjustments as I see fit.

That said i'll bring up the list for the last time to explain something.

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [UNH] Plains
1 [UNH] Island
1 [TE] Wasteland
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
1 [B] Scrubland
1 [B] Savannah
2 [B] Tropical Island
2 [B] Underground Sea
4 [B] Tundra

// Creatures
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
2 [TE] Humility
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [B] Counterspell
2 [DIS] Spell Snare

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Return to Dust
SB: 1 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
SB: 1 [IN] Fact or Fiction
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [B] Red Elemental Blast

Bezerker brought up the spell snare slot replacing it with enlightened tutor in my list. I think this is not a good idea. For multiple reasons. "litterally."

The one thing I look at when I see landstill lists are the numbers. I always shoot for those first.

In cast your wondering:

10 counters

4 counterspell
4 force
2 spell snare

10 draw/tutor
4 brainstorm
4 standstill
2 cunning wish

8-11 removal
4 swords to plowshars
3 perniscious deed
2 Engineered explosives
2 humility "Yes I count humility as removal."

24 lands
6 fetches
10 duals
2 basics
4 mishra
1 wasteland
1 academy ruins

win conditions
4 mishra
1 eternal dragon
1 academy ruins
2 decree of justice

Now to explain. The stability of this deck revolves around the card drawing meeting answers. In any given hand your likely to have a mix of counters removal land and draw spells. All of which are in vast numbers throughout the deck. The synergies are enough to draw into even more cards. Removing the spell snare/ stifle slot would make the deck alittle more inconsistent. On the draw I would have to depend more on swords to plowshars, counterspell, force of will, ect. ect. ect. Spell snare offers an effective answer that is not likely a dead card as most decks usually have a 2 drop thats a big deal. I ask you have you ever spell snared a bob or a goyf or a challice set to one. It's a big deal. Stifle is also a great card and in any major tourney I would probobly run stifle over spell snare, but my meta has alot of good two drop spells that need some counterin, not too mention the random threshhold players who drop on by. Overall the fit could not be replaced with a card like enlightened tutor because it would slow me down too much and bog up my draws. It's nice utility for answers, but I already have a wishboard. If anything id run a 1 of enlightened tutor in the sb as a wish target for x amount of answers, but that really is reaching a bit far. I'd rather play a fof if I had that much mana, which is wy I run it lmao.

Another thing is he was talking about dropping an ee for a 1 of disk, which I dont agree with either. The cost of EE is why it's soo efficient, anything. So I really don't think at best a 5th turn 1 of if it's in your hand and if it's the optimal play is your best bet.

thank you for your help though. It is appreciated. Sorry if it came out soo negative.

I honestly don't think there is a point to call it your landstill deck since obviously it does not help you in any shape or form. The source and any other magic forums are for to share ideas.

I think you should test the list out because only testing will truely tell what slots are weak versus the strong card slots in matchups. I personally think Wasteland's 4c landstill is quite fine but the changes that you make suppose to only benefit you in your metagame. However, if I was going to go to a big event that has an unknown meta I would probably take either taco's old 4c landstill or wasteland's list. Likewise, I think taco's old 4c landstill list which contained both an singleton loam and stifles is consistent and resilient.

[Rinello]

why don't we put Taco's and Wasteland list in the first post?
It can improve the discussion since we can start also from those lists..

Also: do you think is better run Garruk or Crucible for recurring threat?
Don't you think that EE is better than Living Wish + tool for cleaning the board?
I am new to this deck, and I also don't understand why Diabolic Edict > Innocent Blood and EE < Punishment .. can you please help?

Thank You all.

[lebarion]

Hello,
I'm following this forum for a while now, but never posted here. I'm not new to legacy, but I never played a control deck, so be patient, please... :wink:
I'm thinking about putting a landstill variant together. I still haven't decided which one (probably it will be this 4c (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=202340&postcount=1037) list or UWb Cunning Wish (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=200636&postcount=981)), but I'd like to ask some general questions:
- What are the good matches any Landstill should have?
- What are the bad matches?
- How to play against combo? Should I mulligan untill I find FoW?
- Is every quick aggro (Goblins, Affinity) a bad match?
- Finally, any tip to help my decision between Taco's list and UWb?

By the way, I agree that the first post should be updated, and as this is an archetype forum, it should have some different versions - UGBw, UWb, UR, etc.

Sorry for the noob questions, and thanks for the help!

[Zach Tartell]

I don't mean to call people out on not reading what they're saying, but I've seen two or three lists that list "Red Elemental Blast" in their board. Shouldn't it be BEB, or Hydroblast? I seriously don't want to be a giant asshat and be like, "Lol u didnt typ3 w311" or something, but I don't want to miss out on savage tech (if there is any to be had).

[mossivo1986]

My IRL list has 2 hydro 2 reb in it to fix any confusion. Although I did just pick up a set of original japanese reb so i'm just playing with those right now.

[landstill101]

Hello,
I'm following this forum for a while now, but never posted here. I'm not new to legacy, but I never played a control deck, so be patient, please... :wink:
I'm thinking about putting a landstill variant together. I still haven't decided which one (probably it will be Taco's list or UWb Cunning Wish), but I'd like to ask some general questions:
- What are the good matches any Landstill should have?
- What are the bad matches?
- How to play against combo? Should I mulligan untill I find FoW?
- Is every quick aggro (Goblins, Affinity) a bad match?
- Finally, any tip to help my decision between Taco's list and UWb?

By the way, I agree that the first post should be updated, and as this is an archetype forum, it should have some different versions - UGBw, UWb, UR, etc.

Sorry for the noob questions, and thanks for the help!


Good matches (really matters on the list your playing but if its tacos ill try to answer this for you)
Combo
Threshold (this comes down to the experience and the actual amount of skill each players have.)
50/50 against a great goblins player
50/50 against the red aggro decks (RGBW, RGW)
Rogue decks

Weakness (and as I mentioned already this really comes down to the variant)
43 land.dec (worst enemy)
Eva green (really comes down to variant)
Many decks that run extirpate main board you will have problems (but can be worked around if you’re a good landstill player and only comes with practice)
Many decks that have loam recursion (but can also be beaten with experience and sideboard.)

Against the combo It would really come down to which version you are running, if you are running the 4c version(which I still feel is the best version) then no u should not mulligan till you get a fow mainly because many of the combo decks can get around it. And if you go down you are only making your chances of getting that fow and another blue card rarer and rarer only to get yourself with a bad hand and always lose, if you don’t get a fow in hand, usually combo players will not go for the risk of first turn if they can't get around fow, and many of the decks use creatures to kill u with warrens or zombie tokens which can easily be stopped with a deed or explosives, and In my list I also run 3 maindeck stifles that stop combo in their tracks first game.

About the quick aggro decks, it really comes down to variant, my list which is alot closer to bardo's list has a great matchup against quick aggro decks, because you can hang with the early stuff with your own then win late, but decks more like tacos, uses his deck to stall the early game till it gets to late to win which is a lot harder to do. (But can still be done)
If the list of tacos you are using is the 4c version then definitely the 4c version. You should choose between tacos and bardos list.

[Rinello]

do you think Mutavault can replace Monastery making a 3 Colours Landstill more viable?
I am asking this since I think that White/4th color in Landstill is like being 30 meters tall:
You are stronger but everyone can understand why / is lookin at you.. Maybe focusin on 3 colours and adding some basic lands we can make this deck a little more solid (4 Basic lands is better than 0 )

[Berzerked]

Honestly, I've never tested Garruk, but Monestary is a house. He's got a huge first striking body that trumps basically anything you're going to encounter (except Goyf, but that's what the Swords, Deeds, and EEs are for...) and is immune to sorcery speed removal. I currently run 2 in my 25-count landbase. Sometimes the color requirement is kind of hard to meet until later in the game and the thresh requirement sometimes sucks, but as a tertiary win condition (Goyf and Factory take spot 1 and 2), I've never really had a problem with it, and it's won me plenty of games.

I've never tested Ruins either, and I'm pretty sure I'm glad I haven't. 3 EE are my only artifacts, and with only 1 Ruins, I don't expect the "neat" interaction to happen all that often, even less at the right times. In fact, I expect it would screw me over in my opening hand more often than not, and be a completely dead draw where a Monestary would have helped. Unless you're playing other artifacts (SDT, Shackles, Disk), I wouldn't even bother.

Mutavault has been discussed. Basically it's not as good as Monestary.

White doesn't only give you STP (and no, Innocent Blood isn't a good replacement. I used to supplement my Swords with 2 of them, but Smother is better, especially now that I run Goyf.) and Monestary, but Meddling Mage in the board. That's the main selling point.

Also, the 4c builds aren't not solid...they're plenty solid. I used to be scared shitless by Deadguy, with its sets of Wasteland, Sinkhole, and Vindicate. Well, that changed when I still haven't lost a game to it for any reason relating to any of the land destruction. The games I lose come down to a topdeck Stalker ruining my day. The only real problem are the Moons, and the difference between having 1 and 4 basic lands is really negligable there. U'd have to run basics in the color of your removal anyway (not necessarily a good choice), and still have to draw into the land and removal. I'd much rather take my chances of getting to pop a fetch and float white...

[holkenborg]

The only real problem are the Moons, and the difference between having 1 and 4 basic lands is really negligable there. U'd have to run basics in the color of your removal anyway (not necessarily a good choice), and still have to draw into the land and removal. I'd much rather take my chances of getting to pop a fetch and float white...

A basic Island is enough to play Cunning Wish --> Hydroblast. This works for the first moon :-)

[Berzerked]

A basic Island is enough to play Cunning Wish --> Hydroblast. This works for the first moon :-)

True dat. I stopped playing Wish a little while before Dragon Stompy started seeing big play. I had mostly used it for Extirpate when Breakfast and Ichorid were huge, but I might consider it again if DS starts becoming a problem around here.

[mossivo1986]

I really like the wish board options. It allows you to play draw go "teh hottness." Four cards is vry minimal and you can slide alot of different things into four slots. 2 other slots "should" include extirpate/Hydroblast so techn. you have six slots, but strictly four dedicated.
Slots:
1. Anti-Aggro game plan
2. Disenchant "effect"
3. Creature removal
4. Card advantage/ tempo

To me a small wishboard like this is perfect. You could also do this with living wish it would just look a bit different.

1. Mutavault
2. Indrik Stomp howler/ Harmonic sliver
3. Ravenous baloth
4. wasteland/ ghost quarter?

No idea but its just toolbox. My Wish board is as follows and it's extremely effective in the Dstompy matchup and some others as well.

1. Pulse of the fields
2. Slaughter Pact
3. Fact or Fiction
4. Dismantling blow
5. Extirpate
6. Hydroblast

[Sanguine Voyeur]

If there's Dragon Stompy in your meta, Abolish could be an out against Blood Moon. Probably isn't necessary, but could be useful.

[Mister Agent]

Actually come to think of it you can't actually run red elemental blasts in BGWU landstill without red. :wink:

I personally like the idea of grabbing the tabernacle at Pendrelle vale with living wish. Also grabbing an quagnoth could be handy as well especially in the mid to late game but thats probably not needed with garrucks in the main. Just saying though it could be another option to exploit.

[holkenborg]

Sure, you can use Living Wish instead of Cunning Wish. Both will get you the cards you'll need to regain control. But Cunning Wish is a blue instant card, meaning you can play it EOT and pitch it to FoW. It means you can open manasources to eventually counter something and play the Wish EOT. I think that's what makes Cunning Wish better than Living Wish in Landstill.

[Mister Agent]

Sure, you can use Living Wish instead of Cunning Wish. Both will get you the cards you'll need to regain control. But Cunning Wish is a blue instant card, meaning you can play it EOT and pitch it to FoW. It means you can open manasources to eventually counter something and play the Wish EOT. I think that's what makes Cunning Wish better than Living Wish in Landstill.

Yeah I agree but I think it would be interesting to think outside the box and build an 4c landstill deck with living wish. Then you can grab something like an loxodon hierach for aggro or grab an teeg/meddling mage for the combo matchups.

[Tacosnape]

Sure, you can use Living Wish instead of Cunning Wish. Both will get you the cards you'll need to regain control. But Cunning Wish is a blue instant card, meaning you can play it EOT and pitch it to FoW. It means you can open manasources to eventually counter something and play the Wish EOT. I think that's what makes Cunning Wish better than Living Wish in Landstill.

Cunning Wish doesn't grab kill conditions. Living Wish does. Living Wish also fixes your manabase by allowing you to grab a Fetchland or something similar, and allows you to play a stronger maindeck manabase by grabbing specialty lands like Wasteland, Academy Ruins, Volrath's Stronghold, or whatever your build sees fit to run.

You can't dismiss Living Wish based strictly on the fact that Cunning Wish has a few points it's better at. I mean, hell, you could make the similar argument that Vedalken Aethermage is better than Tarmogoyf in Landstill because Aethermage pitches to Force of Will, can be played as an instant, and what the hey, it'll go fetch a Meddling Mage in a pinch. The counterargument would be that Tarmogoyf's impact on the game blows Vedalken Aethermage out of the water. To a degree of much less absurdity (Because Living Wish's average impact level isn't much higher than Cunning Wish's), you can apply the same logic to Wish versus Wish.

[Mister Agent]

Besides any well built landstill deck has a good consistency rate at pitching blue cards to force of will with or without the utility usage of cunning wish.

Living wish does have alot of utility to it that cunning wish does not have which has been stated in previous posts. I personally think an 4c landstill version with living wish can be quite strong.

[loxodonhierarch]

Hello evryone, i wanted to post a list again, this uses : Gifts Ungiven, which is really awesome

The only downside on it is that its quite slow

// Lands
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Nantuko Monastery
1 Island
1 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Savannah
3 Tundra
1 Academy Ruins

// Creatures
2 Exalted Angel
2 Garruk Wildspeaker

// Spells
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
1 Gifts Ungiven
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Cunning Wish
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle
1 Life from the Loam

// Sideboard
SB: 1 swords to plowshares
SB: 3 Meddling Mage
SB: 1 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Gifts Ungiven
SB: 1 Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 Hydroblast
SB: 4 Extirpate
SB: 1 Return to Dust
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Fact or Fiction

What do you guys think about this ?

[holkenborg]

About the Wish discussion: I do not need to wish for a kill. I need to wish for control. I do get the point that Living Wish gets better stuf (I do, honoustly:tongue:), but I prefer keeping mana open for counterspell / do something else (pitching it to FoW is just a tiny tiny pro) and use it to draw another control spell. I play 2 kills (Garruks) and lands and that's about it. In another version I play 3 Hoofprints of the Stag and that's just fine. I never wanted to wish for a kill, but always needed more control. The kill will come eventually.

[mossivo1986]

Besides any well built landstill deck has a good consistency rate at pitching blue cards to force of will with or without the utility usage of cunning wish.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I disagree with that statement agent. I come across ALOT of hands with landstill where I am constantly taking chances with fow in hand and a brainstorm with a fetch in play. Ideally sac the fetch "Reduce chance of draing a land and shuffle for more then likely shot of hitting a blue card." Brainstorm

-3lands
-mixed color cards
-1 wish

All these are horrible for FOW. You never want to remove a STRONG spell atm to get rid of a spell literally 2-1 yourself.

[Mister Agent]

Besides any well built landstill deck has a good consistency rate at pitching blue cards to force of will with or without the utility usage of cunning wish.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I disagree with that statement agent. I come across ALOT of hands with landstill where I am constantly taking chances with fow in hand and a brainstorm with a fetch in play. Ideally sac the fetch "Reduce chance of draing a land and shuffle for more then likely shot of hitting a blue card." Brainstorm

-3lands
-mixed color cards
-1 wish

All these are horrible for FOW. You never want to remove a STRONG spell atm to get rid of a spell literally 2-1 yourself.

You can disagree if you want. I was mostly talking about in general and really it depends on the situation. Also I'd rather pitch a strong spell to force of will to win the game or lead to a win if there is no other blue card to pitch to and/or if there is no possibility to cast that particular blue spell.

[Tacosnape]

All these are horrible for FOW. You never want to remove a STRONG spell atm to get rid of a spell literally 2-1 yourself.

What's wrong with removing a strong spell to Force of Will? Indicating that you're doing anything else would be indicating you're playing weak blue spells in a deck that doesn't have enough slots to be playing weak blue spells. The general idea is to pitch whatever spell is weakest at the time.

[from Cairo]

Hello evryone, i wanted to post a list again, this uses : Gifts Ungiven, which is really awesome

/List

What do you guys think about this ?

Why Gifts over Intuition? Intuition is cheaper on mana. You can still go for LftL+ Wasteland, Ruins (+ E.E.) or Monastery. Additional to your Gifts piles you can fetch 3 Swords/Deed/Standstill... w/e.

3 Swords seems very questionable.

2 Exalted Angel seem underwhelming. You have Cunning Wish into Pulse of the Fields if you really need a boost life wise, it seems like it just gives your opponent a good target for their removal.

Crucible has bad synergy with Deed and once you have Green and Intuition/Gifts- Loam seems much better.

Personally I would:

- 1 Gifts Ungiven
- 2 Exalted Angel
-1 Crucible of Worlds

+ 2 Intuition
+ 1 Pernicious Deed
+ 1 Swords to Plowshares

and then in the Wishboard add a Smother or something instead of the Swords and a Teferi's Response or Stifle in for the SB Gifts Ungiven.

[Tacosnape]

People have been trying to make Gifts Ungiven good since Legacy began and have failed, because it's bad. Intuition is better for setting up a card system in your yard or grabbing exactly what you need. Meditate and Fact are better for sheer card advantage. Gifts tries to be all three and just flops at it, badly.

[Rinello]

Ok this is my build with wasteland, as in Italy no1 even consider a build without wasteland :tongue: Just kidding I just want to try a 4 Color build with wasteland MD.


Draw:

4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
2 Fact or Fiction ==> my meta is so aggro, 3rd or 4th FoF is unthinkable

Permission:

4 Fow
4 Counterspell
2 Stifle ==> With 2 Land recursion I don't soffer from wasteland that much.

Controll:

4 Pernicious Deed
4 Sword to Plowshares
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Crime / Punishment ==> 5th Deed
1 Engineered Explosives

4 SLOTS:

2/3 Tombstalkers
0/2 Crucible
0/2 Life from the Loam


24 Land:

4 Mishra
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Watery Grave
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Wasteland
1 Island




SB - Standard

3 Eng Plague
4 Meddling Mage
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Extirpate
1 Garruk



I would like to have an advice about the 4 open slots and some opinion about the list: ANY ADVICE WILL BE WELCOME!!1!!11!ONE!
Consider that I play in a very very very aggro Meta, the average Deck has Tarmo, FoW and 52 other cards, sometimes 16 + Creatures (but I want to be able to do my job in a random MU )

Thank You all for commenting this list as I want to rebuild my Landstill deck.

[diffy]

1 Crime / Punishment ==> 5th Deed
1 Engineered Explosives


You have to give Engineered Explosives more love: its just better than Crim/Punishment most of the time because you can split the cost over 2 turns making you less vulnerable to Daze and manadenial. You will only very rarely use the Crime part of C/P so that this is not a great argument.



I would like to have an advice about the 4 open slots and some opinion about the list

If you play in a very aggro orientated Meta, I don't see a reason not to play Tarmogoyfs of your own in the last 4 slots - they are a reasonable 'removal' or 'counter' for opposing Goyfs while being gold against any other creatures. They'd be definetely better than Tombstalkers IMO.
Also, if your Meta is very aggro-orientated there's little reason to play CoW / LftL except if people play suicide style decks: they are just pretty slow against aggro and the effect not that great. Generally speaking I prefer a split between CoW and LftL though as LftL is much better early on but doesn't cut in the long run (you don't want to skip your draws).
On another note, there's no reason to play Wastelands in an aggro Meta as your manabase stability is way more precious than the eventual win-more lock: your aggro-opponent can function on very little lands so that you won't be able to screw him easily.

Here's a list that is quite suited for an aggro / any Meta:



//// 4c Cunning Landstill (by Marius Hausman and Clemens Wolff)

/// Maindeck (60 cards)

// Lands (25)
4 Flooded Strand (http://magiccards.info/on/en/316.html)
1 Polluted Delta (http://magiccards.info/on/en/321.html)
2 Windswept Heath (http://magiccards.info/on/en/328.html)
4 Tundra (http://magiccards.info/be/en/300.html)
2 Underground Sea (http://magiccards.info/be/en/301.html)
1 Tropical Island (http://magiccards.info/be/en/299.html)
1 Scrubland (http://magiccards.info/be/en/294.html)
1 Savannah (http://magiccards.info/be/en/293.html)
1 Plains (http://magiccards.info/apac/en/4.html)
1 Island (http://magiccards.info/apac/en/12.html)
1 Tolaria West (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/173.html)
4 Mishra's Factory (http://magiccards.info/aq/en/67.html)
1 Academy Ruins (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/269.html)
1 Wasteland (http://magiccards.info/tp/en/340.html)

// Winconditions (5)
1 Life from the Loam (http://magiccards.info/rav/en/172.html)
1 Crucible of Worlds (http://magiccards.info/5dn/en/114.html)
1 Eternal Dragon (http://magiccards.info/sc/en/12.html)
2 Decree of Justice (http://magiccards.info/sc/en/8.html)

// Permission (8)
4 Counterspell (http://magiccards.info/be/en/55.html)
4 Force of Will (http://magiccards.info/ai/en/42.html)

// Card Advantage (10)
4 Brainstorm (http://magiccards.info/mm/en/61.html)
4 Standstill (http://magiccards.info/od/en/102.html)
2 Cunning Wish (http://magiccards.info/ju/en/37.html)

// Removal (12)
4 Swords to Plowshares (http://magiccards.info/ia/en/278.html)
4 Pernicious Deed (http://magiccards.info/ap/en/114.html)
2 Humility (http://magiccards.info/tp/en/236.html)
2 Engineered Explosives (http://magiccards.info/5dn/en/118.html)

/// Sideboard (15 cards)
3 Engineered Plague (http://magiccards.info/ul/en/51.html)
4 Meddling Mage (http://magiccards.info/ps/en/116.html)
3 Extirpate (http://magiccards.info/pc/en/71.html)
1 Blue Elemental Blast (http://magiccards.info/be/en/50.html)
1 Pulse of the Fields (http://magiccards.info/ds/en/11.html)
1 Slaughter Pact (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/78.html)
1 Enlightened Tutor (http://magiccards.info/mr/en/218.html)
1 Seed Spark (http://magiccards.info/rav/en/30.html)


Humility is a beast, your manabase is very stable, DoJ isn't too bad either beause it can produce some early chumpers + cantrip to stall for a turn at least while being a wincondition later.

If you don't want to go that route, I'd recomend to play 2 copies of Garruk Wildspeaker (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/213.html) main as he distracts focus of your life total and produces blockers. Also, Vedalken Shackles (http://magiccards.info/5dn/en/164.html) and a reduced non-island count (read only 4 Factories and maybe one other non-island) would be really nice in an aggro meta as your opponent basically can't win through it... he has to overextend and so makes your Deeds better.
Also, I'd reconsider Diabolic Edict in an aggro Meta as it won't hit the biggest threat most of the time. Ghastly Demise (http://magiccards.info/od/en/139.html) or Condemn (http://magiccards.info/di/en/8.html) might be better inclusions: they are more mana efficient.
Depending on the kind of aggro that is played in your meta, Counterbalance (http://magiccards.info/cs/en/31.html) (+ Sensei's Divining Top (http://magiccards.info/chk/en/268.html)) might also be a worthy inclusion to lock the opponent out after handeling the inicial assault.

Following two versions are incorporating above cards and might be a nice starting point for you:



“The Vorosh Deck 2k8.2”
By Bardo

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance
2 Spell Snare

3 Pernicious Deed
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Vedalken Shackles

4 Tarmogoyf

4 Mishra's Factory
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Island
1 Swamp
1 Academy Ruins

Sideboard
4 Engineered Plague
3 Dark Confidant
3 Hydroblast
3 Extirpate
2 Krosan Grip




Landstill (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=201145&postcount=35) from the 'Meditate in dedicated Control' Thread
by Deep6er

Lands -23
1 Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea

Enchantments -10
3 Counterbalance
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Standstill

Spells -17
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Meditate
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Fact or Fiction

Artifacts -4
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Vedalken Shackles

Planeswalkers -2
2 Garruk Wildspeaker

Creatures -4
4 Tarmogoyf

[Rinello]

You have to give Engineered Explosives more love: its just better than Crim/Punishment most of the time because you can split the cost over 2 turns making you less vulnerable to Daze and manadenial. You will only very rarely use the Crime part of C/P so that this is not a great argument.

I love low cost, but I find Crime very tempty (Freud would quote this).
I guess I'll use Crime untill I loose a game because it is not an EE, then I'll drop it :p


I think that a build should not have dissinergy, so even if I love Garruk I'll never use more than 1, and I woul never use Shackles or Decree, because I want to use my deed anytime I think the time is right.. I want full advantage!

This is the reason why I want to try Stalkers.. Everyone is running Tarmo, everyone is crazy about him.. I just think that tarmo does NOT belong to this deck,
while Stalker does.

I don't want to loose my Tarmos because of my own Deed or EE.. If this is not true I would build a deck also with Jitte and Academy Ruins for recursion.

For this and a lot of other good arguments, I think I'll run a singleton Life From The Loam, since I don't want to loose a turn to "setup" my Crucible.
Crucible is Good with Manlands and Wasteland, but it is too much fragile:
Krosan Grip, Abolish, Discard, Counter, Dredge or even a random Fateseal effect.. Gosh Batman, MY CRUCIBLE CAN EVEN DIE FROM MY OWN PERNICIOUS DEED!

Life SURVIVES AND AUTO RECURS, dredgind food for stalkers and Manland, fixin my manabase and at a cheap cost (I usually Dredge 2 times MAX and use Life only when needed.. I would even love to see it Extirpated!)

Crucible in the end needs 2 things I cannot provide enough:
Protection and some dedicated lands.


Also, if your Meta is very aggro-orientated there's little reason to play CoW / LftL except if people play suicide style decks: they are just pretty slow against aggro and the effect not that great. Generally speaking I prefer a split between CoW and LftL though as LftL is much better early on but doesn't cut in the long run (you don't want to skip your draws).
On another note, there's no reason to play Wastelands in an aggro Meta as your manabase stability is way more precious than the eventual win-more lock: your aggro-opponent can function on very little lands so that you won't be able to screw him easily.
I quote for truth, if you skip the part about COW / LftL split: If you think 1 is superior to another, run 2x!



Humility is a beast, your manabase is very stable, DoJ isn't too bad either beause it can produce some early chumpers + cantrip to stall for a turn at least while being a wincondition later.
Humility scares me with WW manacost.. Decree is antisineric with Deed.. But I'll test them when Stalker (very long) test phase is over.

Ghastly is not very good with Delve, but I'll test it (read above :) )
I don't like Ghastly btw.. I want edict to make my opponent sacrifice the Big Bad Furry Monster that survived Pernicious Deed (or use it on Mongoose when Tarmo is on the stack, then STP tarmo)

Conclusion:
I don't like very much some advice you gave, but I found your post full of point to discuss, so very usefull. Thank You.

[diffy]

I think that a build should not have dissinergy, so even if I love Garruk I'll never use more than 1, and I woul never use Shackles or Decree [or Tarmogoyf or Crucible of Worlds], because I want to use my deed anytime I think the time is right..


This is the wrong attitude in my oppinion (IMO): if you are Deeding, you are in a bad sitation which will convert into a neutral (read favorable for you) board state afterwards and you will trade your Deed against their board: you've just created Card Advantage (CA).
If you have a Tarmogoyf or Vedalken Shackles on the table and you still have to activate a Deed (doesn't happen very often) you will still create CA because your opponent was forced to put more stuff onto his board to outbalance your Goyf/Shackles.



This is the reason why I want to try Stalkers.. Everyone is running Tarmo, everyone is crazy about him.. I just think that tarmo does NOT belong to this deck,
while Stalker does.


The thing is that Stalker is much more a finisher than Tarmogoyf... which is not good IMO: Landstill does not need things that are only good in the lategame as it is the control deck. If it has reached the lategame it has achieved its aim and so virtually won (and a real win will ensue sooner or later once you reached the lategame).
Now Goyf on the other side is a huge beater in the lategame (he's very often 6/7 because of Standstill/Deed and Engineered Explosives), even larger than Tombstalker and can still play defense early on which makes him clearly supperior IMO... a thing that is better in the late and early game - count me in.
Also, do know that I also am a Landstill player of the 'old' more controling school (see my list) and am therefore sceptical towards Goyf, but if you argue objectively, Goyf really seems to be better than Tombstalker and definetely is fine in some builds (e.g.: Bardo's 'The Vorosh Deck') giving you an entire new dynamic: you can now play aggro-control.



Life SURVIVES AND AUTO RECURS, dredgind food for stalkers and Manland, fixin my manabase and at a cheap cost (I usually Dredge 2 times MAX and use Life only when needed.. I would even love to see it Extirpated!)
Crucible in the end needs 2 things I cannot provide enough:
Protection and some dedicated lands.


The thing is, once you reached the midgame, CoW is supperior to LftL by giving you that land a turn to reach the lategame without you having to sacrifice your draw step. It's also much better to support a chumping Mishra's Factory, hence why I run the split. Also, its much easier on the mana which is something that can't be disregarded as I often tend to not want to fetch green mana early on.



Humility scares me with WW manacost.. Decree is antisineric with Deed..


Did you have a look at that manabase? It's hell of consisten for providing different colors and Marius really did a great job at crafting it... double white is never an issue by the time you want to cast Humility if you fetch/play smartly.

Also, your second point sounds a little stupid: DoJ tokkens are so worthless that you will never have a problem to sacrifice them to a Pernicious Deed activation if you get to reset your board in exchange for that... they are free! Also, if you are in the later stages of a game (where you want to use DoJ as a wincondition) you're already in control of the game and should have found other ways to deal with stuff than Deed if you really need to win quick.



I don't like Ghastly btw.. I want edict to make my opponent sacrifice the Big Bad Furry Monster that survived Pernicious Deed (or use it on Mongoose when Tarmo is on the stack, then STP tarmo)


Why wouldn't you just want to get rid of that Tarmogoyf, ignore that Nimble Mongoose until its 3/3 (takes some time against most builds, esp. against those with CounterTop main) and then trade it for a Mishra's Factory or kill it alongside some other stuff with a Deed/EE activation?

[Rinello]

If you have a Tarmogoyf or Vedalken Shackles on the table and you still have to activate a Deed (doesn't happen very often) you will still create CA because your opponent was forced to put more stuff onto his board to outbalance your Goyf/Shackles.

My fault. This is also true when you have Monastery ready.

Stalker is much more a finisher than Tarmogoyf and so on

I think that evasive ability of Stalker and the fact that he can survive s.Maw, Smother and Deed makes him a better choice.
Also consider that (obv IMHO) it is more probable that someone hate vs creatures is oriented versus Tarmo, Jotun and Utility Guys like Bob or Bop..


The thing is, once you reached the midgame, CoW is supperior to LftL by giving you that land a turn to reach the lategame without you having to sacrifice your draw step. It's also much better to support a chumping Mishra's Factory, hence why I run the split. Also, its much easier on the mana which is something that can't be disregarded as I often tend to not want to fetch green mana early on.


About MishraChump you are 101% right.
About loosing you draw step I think you are partially right:
I usually Dredge no more than 2 times, so I REALLY loose a draw every match or 2.
We have different gamestyle maybe.. But I think that a Fetch can grab G whenever I want.. and with 6 fetches I can find G when I want easy.


Did you have a look at that manabase? It's hell of consisten for providing different colors and Marius really did a great job at crafting it... double white is never an issue by the time you want to cast Humility if you fetch/play smartly.

Also, your second point sounds a little stupid: DoJ tokkens are so worthless that you will never have a problem to sacrifice them to a Pernicious Deed activation if you get to reset your board in exchange for that... they are free! Also, if you are in the later stages of a game (where you want to use DoJ as a wincondition) you're already in control of the game and should have found other ways to deal with stuff than Deed if you really need to win quick.

Yup, that base is solid and good, I was just considering MY manabase atm..
when I'll test more white in the deck I'll obv modify the manabase.
DoJ is strong but why is it stronger than Stalker? I am asking since I never tested it.

[aTn]

I've been testing the following perturbation of Bardo's Vorosh build, with a aggro heavy metagame in mind (Goblins, Affinity, Aggro Loam, Dragon Stompy and Vial based aggro decks seem to come up and challenge Threshold these days in my meta).

I took out the CB-Top engine because Threshold is declining in my meta... also, Top was a bit too slow for my taste. Ponder came in as a replacement for Top (I've thought about FoF, but it seems a bit slow, maybe I'll try it as a 2-of). The white splash is there mainly for StoP (which deals with the fatties Angel/Dragon Stompy and other decks throw my way). It has the added bonus that, on a full moon, I might cast EE for 4. I started with one random Tombstalker maindeck as an alternate kill when facing an Extirpate fiesta; it was so good I added another one.

Here's the list... comments, as always, are greatly appreciated... not !

Draw (12)
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Ponder

Control (8)
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell

Board Control (10)
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Vedalken Shackles

Creatures (6)
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker

Mana (24)
4 Mishra’s Factory
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
3 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains

Sideboard
4 Engineered Plague
3 Hydroblast
3 Extirpate
3 Krosan Grip
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Swords to Plowshares

[Rinello]

Do you feel 4 Ponder are necessary?

Do you miss Stifle?

Ever tryed Meddling Mage in SB?
I think is needed.

Your opinion about Vod. Shackles?

I would cut 3 Ponder and make room for 2 Stifle and 4th StP.. Just my opinion.


Bonus: Noob Question: I steal a Grizzly Bear with a 2 Counters Jitte on it.

What happens? What if Jitte has no counters?

tnxx

[Osse]

Don't bastardize your manabase for one card, Swords isn't as strong when you have Shackles and Deed. Not sure if Explosives is great here, I guess it's a meta call, but where I see it being best (Thresh), there isn't any around. I'd almost always rather cast Deed. Is Force of Will + Counterspell enough? Don't you miss Spell Snare?

Is Plague really needed against Goblins? I haven't tested my matchups against Goblins yet, so I don't know how fast they are to be honest, but I'd think between Shackles, Deed, Swords, Hblast, and Goyf, you shouldn't be too far off. Also, I'm pretty sure your Dstompy matchup is TERRIBLE, so look into what you can do about it, but Hydroblast is definitely the place to start.

EDIT: Rinello: They can respond by pumping the Bear, making it an illegal target for the Shackles, if there is no counters, carry on. Equipment stays on afaik, it only comes off if the creature leaves play or is no longer a creature (ex: manlands)

[aTn]

Don't bastardize your manabase for one card, Swords isn't as strong when you have Shackles and Deed. Not sure if Explosives is great here, I guess it's a meta call, but where I see it being best (Thresh), there isn't any around.

EE is there since decks like Goyf sligh, Belcher and small cc aggro-Vial decks (Mother of Runes, Goyf, Grunt, etc.) are still present in my meta.

Against DS, I like answering fatties with StoP, leaving FoW/Counterspell to counter Blood Moon, Magus of the Moon or equipment if need be. The DS match-up isn't that bad, but I agree it can certainly be improved. I've mostly tested the match-up online, since I'm the only one who occasionally plays DS in my meta.

As for bastardising the manabase, I don't find -1 Tropical Island, -1 Island, +1 Tundra, +1 Plains that much of a problem/bastardization. Shackles and Deeds answer most threats, but dealing with fatties like Tombstalker, Exhalted Angel, etc. can be annoying/resource consuming when you don't play StoP.


Is Plague really needed against Goblins?

I don't know; it certainly helps and it has the added bonus of being ok vs. Breakfast and the random Elf match-up :wink: In my testing against Goblins, Deed wasn't that hot, being very mana-demanding and it rarely whipes their board. I usually board them out (with EE) for E. Plague.


Do you feel 4 Ponder are necessary?

Honestly I don't know. Being a Threshold player, I'm used to playing at least 12 draw spells/cantrips, but I don't know if it's that good in Landstill. Until now, I've found them useful.


Do you miss Stifle?

I'm not playing Wasteland and the mana-denial plan and I play 5 basic lands (with 8 fetches), so I don't feel the need for Stifle. Maybe I'm wrong...


Ever tryed Meddling Mage in SB?

Yeah, I liked them but right now I frankly don't know against what match-ups I'd side them in, since the most common combo deck in my meta is Belcher and I find MM so-so in that case. Again, maybe I'm wrong...

[Osse]

Yeah, your reasoning for EE was mostly what I thought, thats fine. I agree answering Dstompy guys with Swords is strong, something you can't do without white very well. I'm just curious as to whether that is worth making your manabase worse (Remember, the less basic islands, the less Shackles actual matters there). Next time I come down to Montreal, we'll test the DS matchup, since its my worst one, and the goblins matchup. I know for a fact that you beat the breakfast matchup with a strong counterbase, Deed/Shackles/EE and Extirpate. Plague for Elves is fine, but in that case, why are you playing this?

P.S: Hey, it's Justin ;)

[aTn]

I agree answering Dstompy guys with Swords is strong, something you can't do without white very well. I'm just curious as to whether that is worth making your manabase worse (Remember, the less basic islands, the less Shackles actual matters there).

I really doubt taking out a single Island from the deck (-1 Island, +1 Plains, -1 Trop, +1 Tundra) is going to change anything (most of the time) in terms of Shackles. After testing the match-up with both UGB (Bardo's list) and my UGBw list, I think StoP makes quite a difference. I'm not gonna go on a crusade to convince you here, test it and maybe you'll like it. I think your argument would apply better to lists playing Wastelands (and with a smaller Island count)...


Next time I come down to Montreal, we'll test the DS matchup, since its my worst one, and the goblins matchup.

Actually, Goblins isn't that bad with this list (or Bardo's).


Plague for Elves is fine, but in that case, why are you playing this?

Mainly, for the Goblins match-up and to have more answers to EtW post-board.

-------
ASIDE
-------


P.S: Hey, it's Justin ;)

Hey Justin, if you're available, there's a Legacy tournament this thursday...

[Mental]

Since someone posted a list with Ponder, I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents.

I've cut Standstill from my list entirely lately. My meta just wasn't right for it, as it involves 43.lands, decks with Aether Vial, and Ichorid. Standstill was getting sided out every game.

I've been running Ponder in its place for about 2 weeks now. This may seem strange, so bear with me.

Pros of Ponder
-Makes mulligans keepable
-Another 1 drop...I run Goyf, so my 2 curve is fine. My one curve, however, was awfully lacking.
-Never backfires.
-Better than Standstill with a larger combination of fetches
-Smooths out Brainstorm

Pros of Standstill
-Actually card advantage
-When it's good, you win
-Synergistic with manlands

Well, I'm sure I'm going to get flamed like hell for this post.

[Tacosnape]

All wisdom aside, I think if you cut Standstill you cease to be running a deck that belongs in this thread. There's also no reason to keep running manlands as kills. At this point, you're now pretty close to being The Epic Control.

[Mental]

All wisdom aside, I think if you cut Standstill you cease to be running a deck that belongs in this thread. There's also no reason to keep running manlands as kills. At this point, you're now pretty close to being The Epic Control.

Meh, I'm only running 4x Factories as Manlands, and that's because they're just solid in any control. But yeah, I can take the discussion about StillessStill out of here.

[Burr]

Your meta is really 43 land? Thats unheard of! =[

Verbal warning for a really weak post in the DTB forum. Please see our site rules (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7455). - Bardo

[mossivo1986]

So if anyone hasnt noticed brainburst has canadian thresh on its new articles. Which is just fantastic.

now for the next month all ill hear about is how X4 stifle/ Wateland is the way to go.

[Berzerked]

I'm not completely sure whether you are for or against the inclusion of 4x Stifle/Waste. If you're against it, you might want to work on your sarcasm, or at least grammar. But if you're for it:

Thresh isn't Landstill. They can operate on very few lands, and not care too much about color. They also have 10+ cantrips to find more business. The Stifle/Waste package they run, I feel, has a lot of synergy with their gameplan, which involves dropping a fatty and making sure it stays around to take it to the hole.
We can't do that kind of stuff (well, at least not as fast and using as little resources). We need to hit colored land drops constantly, and Wasteland doesn't help that. Stifle, on the other hand, I feel is a fine choice as a 2-3 of if your meta calls for it.

Regardless of what you feel, I'm sure (/hope) that no one is going to use that argument to include the package in Landstill. I know I don't play Vindicate even though it works in Deadguy...

[Mister Agent]

This could be just my opinion but I find the hatfields' moonthresh deck much more threatening then canadian thresh. I mean counterbalance with moon effects in play can make situations very doubtful for the landstill player not saying this is always the case though.

[Berzerked]

MoonThresh is a beast, hands down. This version seems like it would give us a run for our money too, though: Stifle/Waste/Spell Snare on top of the rest of the stuff seems a little much. Throw in Fire/Ice and Bolt for our manlands and the rest Thresh brings to the table, and I'm not sure this matchup is that winnable.

[kicks_422]

Isn't a good Thresh MU one of the main selling points of Landstill? I thought that was one of the main reasons that MoonThresh was developed.

[bigbear102]

Isn't a good Thresh MU one of the main selling points of Landstill? I thought that was one of the main reasons that MoonThresh was developed.

That's why he brought it up. If the thresh matchup changes to their favor then that's not good for this archetype. We now need ideas to combat these strategies.

[Michael Keller]

It might be a good idea to examine more main-deck enchantment removal, artifact hate, and the addition of basic lands. It seems everytime the Landstill player loses to (Moon)Thresh it's because they get shut down by either Moon or Counterbalance.

Counterbalance is just too good - it is a permanent Counterspell. But it's really the Top that provides the problem. If you could find ways to limit their access to the top 3 cards, you should be fine there (I'd assume...).

Because enchantments are popping up everywhere. it is a good idea to run more main-deck hate against enchantments (and artifacts) specifically. Landstill already has a stable card-drawing base, so it really comes down to how reactive spells can win you the game. You need to be able to suppress any threat they drop - and permanents that are a little more evasive to hate are not good.

In summation:

1.) More Artifact and Enchantment hate in the main, AND
2.) More basic lands to combat Moon-based effects.

[Ch@os]

A E. Tutor Engine and a sinlge Seal of Cleansing or Aura of Silence MB would be great.
Or a C. Wish board with Disenchant/Krosan Grip or Dismantling Blow.

[landstill101]

soo I've been kinda stickin away from landstill in my meta(which sucks since landstill is my favorite deck), my list is very close to bardo's 4c list with goyf.. any way my meta usually consists of 12-15 players 10 having discard, 1 combo, 1 goblin, and me being the only blue.......... this was fine for a while, becuase my deck still had the ability to win, but then after about 6 tournies in a row of me gettin first, alot of them (most of them ranging from evagreen to deadguy, and some random jank) added extirpate maindeck( well now I havnt made playoffs yet mainly because they will completly keep me off one color (usually green) and I've had to change my manabase, change some other things and I'm still not doing that well. Can anyone give me a list that they feel does well against black disruption decks or maybe a sideboard(4c) that helps alot.( and yes many many many many times we don't have a single threshold deck or even a goblin, and when we do, the threshold guy plays bUG which has discard again and the goblin player doesnt have black splashed in to stop goyf) The deck list that I have now I feel is very very strong in the current USA meta of lots of threshold and goblins(which I have great matchups) but sucks in the one that is my local tourny.(Don't think that my local meta sucks, 10 of us went to the extend ptq and all of them were in top 60, joe george being one of them with top 8 performance, and also with earnest tuck top 8 at gencon last year)

[Burr]

A E. Tutor Engine and a sinlge Seal of Cleansing or Aura of Silence MB would be great.
Or a C. Wish board with Disenchant/Krosan Grip or Dismantling Blow.

For the C. wish board enchantment/artifact removals you listed, do you believe they are better than return to dust? even though return to dust takes double white it also gives you the ability to create card advantage by taking away 2 enchantments/artifacts with one removal spell.

[Mister Agent]

I don't think adding more enchantment removal to the maindeck of landstill is going to help mainly because it just adds more redudancy to the deck overall. The more logical alternative to deal with moonthresh is to play an three color version of landstill as opposed to 4 colors. For example, I like Bardo's UBG landstill chances against moonthresh.

[vigilante]

As was mentioned a few pages back, there's always the option of reverting to Nevinyrral's Disk as the sweeper of choice. Disk laughs at Blood Moon, and it's outside Counterbalance's effective range, but has the significant drawback of being a sitting duck for a turn before coming online (although this risk is preferable to having a Pernicious Deed stuck uselessly in your hand while you're being Mooned).

It's an option for MoonThresh-infested metas....whether it warrants maindeck inclusion or sideboard slots in that sort of meta is a decision I'd have to leave to the Landstill die-hards.

[Mister Agent]

As was mentioned a few pages back, there's always the option of reverting to Nevinyrral's Disk as the sweeper of choice. Disk laughs at Blood Moon, and it's outside Counterbalance's effective range, but has the significant drawback of being a sitting duck for a turn before coming online (although this risk is preferable to having a Pernicious Deed stuck uselessly in your hand while you're being Mooned).

It's an option for MoonThresh-infested metas....whether it warrants maindeck inclusion or sideboard slots in that sort of meta is a decision I'd have to leave to the Landstill die-hards.

You can do that yeah and/or you can fix your manabase so you can actually cast an Deed when under moon pressure. Nevin's disk is not an bad alternative though since it can be an nice supplement with other instanteous removal.

[vigilante]

...or you can fix your manabase so you can actually cast an Deed when under moon pressure.
Re-tooling a Landstill manabase to ensure reliable access to a basic Swamp and Forest before a Moon effect comes online seems like an impossibly tall-order, especially for 4-colour builds. What would this proposed manabase look like?



I suppose I should throw my decklist out there while I'm at it. Keep in mind that this has been heavily refined for an aggro-dominated meta with very little combo.

// Lands
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
3 Nantuko Monastery
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Snow-Covered Island

// Creatures/Planeswalkers
2 Jace Beleren
2 Mystic Enforcer

// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Counterspell
4 Standstill
1 Life from the Loam
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Cunning Wish
4 Pernicious Deed
3 The Abyss
4 Force of Will

// Sideboard
4 Extirpate
3 Pulse of the Fields (aggro- and Burn-heavy adaptation)
1 Ghastly Demise
4 Hydroblast
1 Dismantling Blow/Krosan Grip (I use D.Blow currently)
1 Misdirection
1 Tempest of Light (metagame consideration....Solitaire and Enduring Ideal decks pop up frequently)

Notable differences to more standard build are, of course:
- the ludicrously over-the-top creature removal package of Swords/Deed/The Abyss.... it's exactly what I need in my creature-heavy meta.
- the 7 man-land configuration + 2 Mystic Enforcers....I tend to play Landstill with a reasonably aggressive style. This threat configuration suits that playing style well. Also, Mystic Enforcer is one of the few large, evasive finishers that operates alongside The Abyss (I tried Morphling for a while but found it too mana intensive).
- the lack of Fact or Fiction....I've replaced Facts with Jace and haven't looked back. The increased amount of creature removal helps protect him from being attacked -- The Abyss is particularly useful in this role.
- the Crucible of Worlds/Life from the Loam split....I've found Loam to be better on occasions (discard-heavy decks, or matchups that require multiple high-value Pernicious Deed activations). Loam is also good for achieving threshold for my Monasteries and Mystic Enforcers.

I'm not completely sold on the Cunning Wishes....I often get the feeling that I'm trying to do too much by including them, but they certainly have the effect of making you feel more comfortable while playing (knowing that you can Wish for an answer to almost any situation). Having access to Extirpate and Pulse of the Fields in game 1 is also very nice.

Lack of Meddling Mages in the SB is due to 1) space considerations (ie. Wish-board bastardisation), 2) the presence of The Abyss, and 3) the underrepresentation of Combo in the meta. I haven't missed them very often.

Your thoughts? Once again, keep in mind that this build is tuned for an aggro-heavy meta.

[holkenborg]

How does Jace works for you? I considered him in combination with Hoofprints of the Stag (in your deck's case instead of the 2 mystic enforcers). Still have to test that.

If you really are playing a heavy creature environment, then where is Moat? You can easily run 1 / 2 with Cunning Wish to Enlightened Tutor (my build).

And for the Cunning Wishes you aren't sure about.. you could change them into Enlightened Tutors (3 times) and then just play mainbord toolbox. But you would get another kind of deck that way with mainbord 3 tutors, 1 moat, 1 abyss, 2 hoofprints, etc. I see that you are playing Monasteries. In that case, even Humility would be a great card.

IF you play the toolbox-variant I just spoke about I could advise you (in your heavy creature/burn metagame) to also play 1 Genju of the Fields main (with the 3 tutors, else not). That way you have 4 mainbord slots (1 genju, 3 tutors) to a life-gaining card. It stalled (eventually won) me games..

[vigilante]

The inclusion of The Abyss in the deck makes decisions that should be straightforward much more difficult....for example, you mentioned Hoofprints: Hoofprints is good with Jace, Jace is good with The Abyss, but Hoofprints + The Abyss = not a combo. Having to consider The Abyss's interactions with your own cards can be infuriating, but in my experience its raw power is hard to dispute.

I've been treating Jace as a slow but reusable source of card advantage, with the benefit of being a tertiary win-condition (albeit, an excruciatingly slow one). I wasn't happy with Fact's 4cc, and I wasn't sold on the recent suggestions of Meditate. Most of the time, I try to use his abilities in the sequence +2, -1, -1, +2, etc., although if I'm in aggressive mode I'll usually start with -1, -1, then +2 (if I'm on the offensive, I don't want to help my opponent draw into an answer). As I mentioned before, having an Abyss nibbling away at their attackers really helps extend Jace's useful life. The fact that Planeswalkers often distract opponents from more pressing things (ie. your own low life total, or their own low life total) shouldn't be underestimated either -- I once had an opponent Vindicate a Jace, only to die to my Nantuko Monastery next turn because he'd completely overlooked the man-land in his "kill the Planeswalker" frenzy.

I've considered both Moat and Humility in the past. I'd dismissed Moat for the reason you mentioned (lousy with the high man-land count). Humility was much harder to pass up though....it's fantastic with man-lands (especially the high Monastery complement), and I believe the only reason I dropped it was that The Abyss was doing a similar job (hating creatures) for the same CMC, but was easier on the colour requirements (single B as opposed to WW). Now that you've mentioned Humility again, I think I'll have to re-evaluate that Humility vs The Abyss slot (and the associated Mystic Enforcers, of course). Anyone else got experience with The Abyss?

Your Enlightened Tutor suggestion is interesting....with the right MD toolbox setup, grabbing a bomb like Genju/Humility/Moat/Standstill/Hoofprints (or even something more mundane, ie. Standstill/Crucible) could be a powerful play. However, my major concern is that with a toolbox crammed into the maindeck, will there be enough blue cards to support Force of Will? Some of these 4-colour builds are already cutting it pretty fine in the blue card department....throwing in a predominately white ET engine may hurt that even more. Possibly I'm being paranoid about this, but my current blue count of 21 (including the 4 Forces) is about as low as I'd want to go to maintain reliability.

[holkenborg]

Oke, good arguments.

Still, I'm still debating whether the Abyss couldn't be replaced by Damnation, because there are situations your opponent has like 3 - 4 creatures.. If you play the Abyss, sure you'll get control over time, but you might be dead by then. With Damnation they're just all gone instantly. What is your experience in this?

[vigilante]

That's certainly a legitimate concern....there are situations where Wrath/Damnation would buy you more time than The Abyss by wiping out several opposing creatures in one go, as opposed to picking them off over the following turns. My experience in this area? Pernicious. Deed. Wiping the board with Deed, then dropping The Abyss the following turn is usually back-breaking, particularly if they've played a single creature (say, a Goyf they were saving up) post-Deed.

If you've got a Deed in hand, sure, let them overextend into it, then play The Abyss to hinder their recovery. If you don't (have Deed), the judicious use of Swords and countermagic to control the number of creatures your opponent has in play also helps maximise The Abyss's impact. I don't suppose there's any playable Cunning Wish-able sweeper for those situations where things get out of hand? Hideous Laughter? Retaliate? Tsabo's Decree? Decree seems the most interesting, but it's also the most narrow....nailing Tarmogoyfs with a Decree naming Lhurgoyfs seems awful, but it would be a wrecking-ball against Goblins, random Elf decks, or anything remotely tribal.

[diffy]

I don't suppose there's any playable Cunning Wish-able sweeper for those situations where things get out of hand?

There's always Cunning Wish into Enlightened Tutor into Pernicious Deed or Engineered Explosives.

Also, Pulse of the Fields is awesome to stall against hordes, not so great against Tarmogoyfs obviously but those are handled quite fine via Slaughter Pact.

[Nihil Credo]

Wing Shards.

[holkenborg]

That's indeed what s*cks about Cunning Wish.. You can't get a Wrath of God/Pernicious Deed/mass removal.. But you can get a tutor (maybe use it the same turn) into mass removal / moat / abyss.

[Mental]

Kronicler, in my meta, has been playing Tempo Thresh for a few months now, so I consider myself pretty experienced in how to deal with it. Here's my plan, without a complete retooling of the deck:

-Force of Will Stifle. This is almost always the right play.
-Make sure Crucible of Worlds resolves. This will save you.
-Your life total is very valuable in this MU. I've lost many games to stabilizing at 6 life, and getting bolted out.

It seems to me that the solutions are:
-Counterbalance/Top MD - This is a threshold crusher, as we know. I don't see many arguments against it's inclusion.
-More basic lands - I would never up the fetch count past 6, because of Stifle. I would never up the dual count past 6, because of Wasteland. I've cut my manabase down to:
3x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand
3x Underground Sea
3x Tropical Island
4x Island
1x Swamp
4x Mishra's Factory
3x Wasteland
-Less things with high CC, more Tarmogoyf - Tarmogoyf is good against Threshold. Because you can often play it through their disruption because of its relatively low CC, it's one of the best removal pieces that you run.
-Diabolic Edict is probably better than Smother in my 2 open slots. Goose is a total bitch.

My list is looking like:
3x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand
3x Underground Sea
3x Tropical Island
4x Island
1x Swamp
4x Mishra's Factory
3x Wasteland

4x Tarmogoyf

4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
4x Standstill
4x Pernicious Deed
3x Counterbalance
3x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Crucible of Worlds
2x Diabolic Edict
2x Engineered Explosives
2x Vedalken Shackles
2x Counterspell

I'm not 100% sure about that list, but it feels strong against Red Threshold.
I'm not sure how much longer I'll be playing Landstill if the meta stays this way, however.

[diffy]

Some food for thought:

Are people still happy with their pair of Crucibles?
I've thought about cutting them down to one copy (fetchable with Wishboard Enlightened Tutor) to up the land count to 25 by adding in another Basic as CoW always feels terribly clunky and it isn't that essential now that people let go on the Wastelock.

I'm currently also considering dropping the last Wasteland in favor of a more stable manabase - the land destruction effect really only matters against recursion engines like Volraht's Stronghold or other manlands. It has some uses against combo (TES) but I think that a stable manabase is worthier than these limited applications.

Any thoughts?


For refference, here's my list:



/// Maindeck (60 cards)

// Lands (24)
4 Flooded Strand (http://magiccards.info/on/en/316.html)
2 Polluted Delta (http://magiccards.info/on/en/321.html)
4 Tundra (http://magiccards.info/be/en/300.html)
2 Underground Sea (http://magiccards.info/be/en/301.html)
1 Scrubland (http://magiccards.info/be/en/294.html)
2 Plains (http://magiccards.info/apac/en/4.html)
2 Island (http://magiccards.info/apac/en/12.html)
1 Tolaria West (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/173.html)
1 Academy Ruins (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/269.html)
1 Wasteland (http://magiccards.info/tp/en/340.html)
4 Mishra's Factory (http://magiccards.info/aq/en/67.html)

// Winconditions (5)
1 Eternal Dragon (http://magiccards.info/sc/en/12.html)
2 Decree of Justice (http://magiccards.info/sc/en/8.html)
2 Crucible of Worlds (http://magiccards.info/5dn/en/114.html)

// Card Advantage (11)
4 Brainstorm (http://magiccards.info/mm/en/61.html)
4 Standstill (http://magiccards.info/od/en/102.html)
3 Cunning Wish (http://magiccards.info/ju/en/37.html)

// Permission (8)
4 Counterspell (http://magiccards.info/be/en/55.html)
4 Force of Will (http://magiccards.info/ai/en/42.html)

// Removal (12)
4 Swords to Plowshares (http://magiccards.info/ia/en/278.html)
3 Wrath of God (http://magiccards.info/po/en/202.html)
2 Humility (http://magiccards.info/tp/en/236.html)
3 Engineered Explosives (http://magiccards.info/5dn/en/118.html)

/// Sideboard (15 cards)
4 Meddling Mage (http://magiccards.info/ps/en/116.html)
3 Engineered Plague (http://magiccards.info/ul/en/51.html)
3 Extirpate (http://magiccards.info/pc/en/71.html)
1 Slaughter Pact (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/78.html)
1 Pulse of the Fields (http://magiccards.info/ds/en/11.html)
1 Return to Dust (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/39.html)
1 Enlightened Tutor (http://magiccards.info/mr/en/218.html)
1 Blue Elemental Blast (http://magiccards.info/be/en/50.html)


Edit: To adress the last post:



-Make sure Crucible of Worlds resolves. This will save you.


This is why I like a singleton Life from the Loam instead of Crucible n°2 in 4c lists: the recursion effect is some good against Tempo Thrash and having 3 lands now is as good as a land drop a turn... it also helps that its a full mana cheaper making early land destruction much less scary.



-Your life total is very valuable in this MU. I've lost many games to stabilizing at 6 life, and getting bolted out.


Cunning Wish helps to solve this problem by fetching Pulse of the Fields which also helps to ignore lategame Mongeese which are most of the time harder to handle than Goyfs.



-Counterbalance/Top MD - This is a threshold crusher, as we know. I don't see many arguments against it's inclusion.


There are arguments against this inclusion though, the main argument being that Counterbalance is pretty much dead without Sensei's Divining Top or Brainstorm as your curve is all over the place and your land count too high to hit something blindly on a semi-consistant basis. Also, even with SdT I've found myself not finding the right cmc under the top3 cards more often than the 'occasionally' that is acceptable (source of testing: Bardo's list (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2553198&postcount=10)).

If you specially want to focus on the Tempo Thrash matchup, I'd reconsider playing Stifles (and this comes from a Stifle hater at heart) to fight their Wastelands and to keep them off the green mana they need. Also, I'd drop the number of colorless producing lands to the absolute minimum: Wastelands just aren't cutting against Threshold and against that particular build (they just need one threat to protect it and ride it to victory. Also you want to develop your manabase rather than slow your opponent: you are the one with the expensive spells and so create more tempo via having more lands).

[Mental]

text

Yeah, I think I will test Stifle in place of 2x Diabolic Edict. Stifle seems good, and I just picked up 4. I kinda want to run 2 in my SB also.

To address your other points:

-LFTL- It's much clunkier than Crucible in my version of Landstill, however, it probably warrents testing. I like that one LFTL activation can usually salvage a game, and that it costs 1G instead of 3. I don't like that it's worse in most other MUs.

-I run UGB thresh, so I don't really want to play Cunning Wish. IMO, it seems that a stable manabase outweighs the pluses of running white, but I could be wrong. However, your UWB is something I haven't really considered. I don't know about it - Goyf seems very strong to me. Living Wish, on the other hand, is something I want to test. Living Wish for Maze of Ith, another Fetch, or Ravenous Baloth all seem strong in this MU.

-CounterTop- You definitely have a point, however, my curve is pretty centered at 2cc with some 3cc. So I do think Counterbalance isn't that bad blind.

Thoughts?

[diffy]

Yeah, I think I will test Stifle in place of 2x Diabolic Edict. Stifle seems good, and I just picked up 4. I kinda want to run 2 in my SB also.


I don't think that 2 is the right number for Stifle to be at its best effect. I think you want 3-4 Stifles for them to be efficient: you really want them early, and they are especially good in your opening hand.



-LFTL- It's much clunkier than Crucible in my version of Landstill, however, it probably warrents testing. I like that one LFTL activation can usually salvage a game, and that it costs 1G instead of 3. I don't like that it's worse in most other MUs.


It's really only worse in matchup where you expect the game to drag out (you don't want to skip every third draw) or where you want to lock your opponent out (which is a bad plan in most occasions).
Also, that first example where LftL is worse than CoW is most likely to be in control matchups where this 'drawback' is overshadowed by the 'uncounterability' of LftL.



-I run UGB Landstill, so I don't really want to play Cunning Wish. IMO, it seems that a stable manabase outweighs the pluses of running white, but I could be wrong. However, your UWB is something I haven't really considered. I don't know about it - Goyf seems very strong to me. Living Wish, on the other hand, is something I want to test. Living Wish for Maze of Ith, another Fetch, or Ravenous Baloth all seem strong in this MU.


Living Wish is something that I wanted to try in Landstill since its been mentioned here. It could be quite good.

A possible wishboard slots could be:
1 Volrath's Stronghold [alongside more Shriekmaws in the mainboard targetet removal slots]
1 Shriekmaw
1 Ravenous Baloth or Darkheart Sliver
1 Yixlid Jailer
1 Virdian Zealot [hard on the mana, is there anything better? Nantuko Vigilante? Too mana-intensive, just as Indrik Stomphowler]
1 Maze of Ith [maybe redundant with Shriekmaw]
1 Academy Ruins
1 [I]Mesmeric Fiend [against combo]
1 Plague Splitter [against Goblins, Empty the Warrens - instead of Engineered Plague n°4]

The italic cards are probably superfluous but possible viable inclusions.



-CounterTop- You definitely have a point, however, my curve is pretty centered at 2cc with some 3cc. So I do think Counterbalance isn't that bad blind.


The thing is that you still play a lot of lands (23+) which make the Counterbalance engine worse than in dedicated aggro-control.

[Mister Agent]

Actually Clemens uwb landstill looks like it can handle any threshold variant including moonthresh. But this probably only applies if your comfortable playing his list. I have been sort of working on an enlightened tutor uwb landstill list. I will probably show everyone once I get more testing done with it.