[ATW] Landstill [Archive] - Page 6

Nightmare

03-03-2008, 01:37 PM

Sigh. Caution: Rant to follow.

I get the feeling by reading this thread that you people either don't have a clue what you're doing, are terrible deckbuilders, or have some insane idea that you can account for every possible scenario by playing every frigging card in the maindeck.

All of these could be true, but I'm hoping it's just a stupid, stupid thread gone out of control.

Landstill is a deck that is inherantly based on adapting to the metagame that presents itself, and establishing small victories which eventually contribute to an overall win in the game. This can only occur once you've taken complete control - you establish a point where you cannot be beaten, and only then do you concern yourself with the process of winning the game.

As a control deck living in a metagame full of aggro-control, you have the advantage in any of those matches by recognizing that eventually, YOU WIN THE ATTRITION WAR. Not by going beatdown prematurely, not by attempting to hard-lock them somehow. I think the progression of this deck has forced many of you to lose the concept of the deck altogether.

Cunning Wish was tested in Landstill in order to provide answers to troublesome cards during game one, and specifically to save room on slots needed to access those answers. This is important, due to the idea that Landstill must be able to maintain a clear board at all times, to best utilize the card advantage provided by cards like Wrath, Damnation, Deed, and Disk. This pure advantage, combined with the virtual advantage garnered by not having creatures to kill, making your opponent's removal dead, combined with cards like FoF and Standstill to overwhelm your opponent in card advantage.

Enlightened Tutor does exactly the opposite. I can't believe you guys are considering running Enlightened Tutor as a Cunning Wish target, to find a bunch of crap you're piling into the maindeck. Are you seriously willing to trade two cards from hand (The wish, plus the card you don't draw when you Tutor) for a card that is situationally good? Literally the only card that I could even consider being a tutor target is Moat, and that completely flies in the face of all the foundations of the deck to begin with. Here's some insight:

Crucible was only ever added to the maindeck of Landstill when the mirror match was running rampant, and you expected to see it 2 to 3 times per tournament. It was a sideboard card for winning the mirror and protecting Factories. No one planned to be locking opponents out of the game with it, since generally speaking, you were Akroma's Vengeance-ing or Disking it away. Now that many people are running Deed, this is an even bigger issue.

Wasteland was put into the deck in a time where manabases could actually play around it. Why? The Wastes were a tool to deal with specific lands such as Volrath's Stronghold, which control decks had a difficult time dealing with. Again, not a lock.

Now, you're building manabases that are even more vulnerable to disruption than the atrocities Landstill played from day 1. 4 colors is extremely ambitious, and at that, most of you run between 6 and 9 lands that don't even produce colored mana! Why are you surprised that the new Thresh decks which are built to capitalize on shitty manabases are a bad matchup?

ADAPT TO THE METAGAME, CONTROL DECK. Making your deck less consistent by piling in situational trumps is a great way to turn into Enchantress. You get 6 cards that destroy a given deck, and 54 that suck. That's not the way to go about building a control deck. Why are we forcing the manabase so hard? What does white really give you, aside from Swords, and why is it so much better than say, Smother, or Edict?

The only reason you guys are running four colors is because you've been talked into believing that it's somehow acceptable or even justified. In truth, the word that best describes 4c landstill is "Greedy." You can't play every card. It won't work. You can't run 23+ lands in a deck and expect Counterbalance to work. You can't run Moat and Factory in the same deck and expect cards not to be dead.

I saw all this crap, and I mean there's a lot of it, and stripped it all down into my CaNG entry. I'm not pimping that deck, but you guys are going back over all the work I did before I built that deck, and completely missing all the conclusions I made. Honestly, how can you justify Counterbalance when you run 1 - 1! - three mana spell in the deck? What can you possibly hope to counter with it?

God, I can't even do this anymore. I'm way too frustrated.

Ch@os

03-03-2008, 02:00 PM

Uhhh, i think you are really frustrated.
For example my decklist is not soo far from Zvi's decklist at the worlds.
And over here in Germany this deck works, and shows up in the T8's. Thats an argument you cannot beat with hating E. Tutor, CA-1 for an Moat, Crucible or winoption like Hoofprints? And in the worst case a counter in combination with CB.

Nightmare

03-03-2008, 02:02 PM

Zvi's deck was terrible.

GASP! BLASPHEMY!

Even if you think it's great, the deck BARELY constitutes as Landstill, and it's running a better manabase than 90% of the lists in this thread.

diffy

03-03-2008, 02:11 PM

Cunning Wish was tested in Landstill in order to provide answers to troublesome cards during game one, and specifically to save room on slots needed to access those answers.

Agreed. At least in Germany it was historically added to have access to game1 Extirpate against all those nasty Life from the Loam or Genesis tricks that out-card-advantage you otherwise. To not make the Wish totally suck in any other matchup, a small toolbox was included. First of all only Slaughter Pact, Return to Dust and Pulse of the Fields where included in it. The first two to turn Cunning Wish into a flex. Dark Banishing/Disenchant slot, the later to save room in the maindeck - PotF is just really strong in many matchups.
Then another slot was adapted: the card advantage slot for when you've nothing to handle. At first this was Fact or Fiction but that was so horribly clunky and the effect not worth the suck that I wanted to play something more mana efficient instead. The last part of the tech spiral, of which I'm not 100% fixed on yet, was to replace an Engineered Plague by a Blue Elemental Blast. The reasoning: both are good in their primary matchup (Goblins) while BeB adds some added flexibility (Blood Moon out etc) and is available from game1 on.

Could you please point out the flaw in above reasoning?

Enlightened Tutor does exactly the opposite. I can't believe you guys are considering running Enlightened Tutor as a Cunning Wish target, to find a bunch of crap you're piling into the maindeck. Are you seriously willing to trade two cards from hand (The wish, plus the card you don't draw when you Tutor) for a card that is situationally good? Literally the only card that I could even consider being a tutor target is Moat, and that completely flies in the face of all the foundations of the deck to begin with.

Now the 'random card advantage' slot' for me in the wishboard is Enlightened Tutor. The reasoning behind it? Well first of all we added Humility back into the maindeck which was like the best move because it is just such an 'I win' card against most of Legacy. Enlightened Tutor would dig that up. Also, being able to tutor for Engineered Explosives if creatures where of immediate matter or for Standstill onto an empty board or for Crucible of Worlds in the mirror/against other control was a strong point for the inclusion of Enlightened Tutor.

Can you spot the cards that are situationally good? All the cards mentioned above were already in the maindeck - Enlightened Tutor was just added to the Wishboard to be able to fight things that Cunning Wish can normally not (multiple creatures -> Engineered Explosives or Humility) or to provide a sort of virtual card advantage instead of the raw/unrefined card advantage of something like FoF: I think that having access to a card that makes all your opponents creatures suck (Humility) or that assures every land drop (Crucible of Worlds) overshadowes the 'random' CA created by FoF.

Crucible was only ever added to the maindeck of Landstill when the mirror match was running rampant, and you expected to see it 2 to 3 times per tournament. It was a sideboard card for winning the mirror and protecting Factories. No one planned to be locking opponents out of the game with it, since generally speaking, you were Akroma's Vengeance-ing or Disking it away. Now that many people are running Deed, this is an even bigger issue.

At the time of the German Legacy Champs I too thought like this, removed the CoWs from the main... and I will never do this mistake again. First of all, the Landstill mirror is quite rampant in Germany but even without this, CoW has its uses. It lets you ignore manadisruption to a large degree, it lets you recover from Geddon/Dev.Dreams/LftL locks etc. It is a sort of clunky, mid-lategamish thing and I have thought about cutting one (one stays main to be tutored up if need be via Cunning Wish) for another basic but I will never do the mistake again to completely remove it from the main.

Wasteland was put into the deck in a time where manabases could actually play around it. Why? The Wastes were a tool to deal with specific lands such as Volrath's Stronghold, which control decks had a difficult time dealing with. Again, not a lock.

Yey, mad props for someone finally understanding my point of view, but exactly for above mentioned factors (opposing manlands, recursion lands [Volrath's Stronghold, Academy Ruins so ruin your day]) it is wise to keep some copies - one in my case but I have a virtual count of 2 as I can tutor it up via Tolaria West which is better than a Wasteland always because above mentioned situations are quite rare and so you can just get something else than a Wasteland with Tolaria (Ruins+EE being the most prominent examples).

Nightmare

03-03-2008, 02:24 PM

Could you please point out the flaw in above reasoning?No, because we agree. Cunning Wish is generally in line with the overall strategic plan of Landstill.

Now the 'random card advantage' slot' for me in the wishboard is Enlightened Tutor. The reasoning behind it? Well first of all we added Humility back into the maindeck which was like the best move because it is just such an 'I win' card against most of Legacy.How many colors are you running? I assume it's three. What does your manabase look like? What Win-cons are you using? What sweepers? All of this has to be taken into consideration for me to decide if it's worth getting into the Humility debate. Don't forget, I was absolutely the first person to return to the card in recent months - I like it a lot, but it has to be built around. It denies you access to other cards in the deck, and it's something that can't be just tossed in. This, much like Counterbalance, starts you down a slippery slope that eventually makes you play a deck that isn't really Landstill, and may not really be better.

Can you spot the cards that are situationally good?Moat, Seal of Cleansing, Counterbalance, Engineered Explosives, Crucible of Worlds, and Standstill. I'm also not specifically discussing your list, but most of the ones posted in the last few pages.

All the cards mentioned above were already in the maindeckThe question is, should they have been?

to provide a sort of virtual card advantage instead of the raw/unrefined card advantage of something like FoF: I think that having access to a card that makes all your opponents creatures suck (Humility) or that assures every land drop (Crucible of Worlds) overshadowes the 'random' CA created by FoF.Enlightened Tutor does not provide virtual Card Advantage. It creates situational card selection. The target of the tutor effect creates the advantage. Also, you're incorrect in thinking that hitting your 12th land drop is more important than cards in hand (FoF). Crucible makes you tap out on turn three, which means you didn't play Standstill on turn 2, which means you aren't as far ahead as you should be.

It is a sort of clunky, mid-lategamish thing and I have thought about cutting one (one stays main to be tutored up if need be via Cunning Wish)You seriously don't see a problem with this statement?

I have a virtual count of 2 as I can tutor it up via Tolaria West.Don't even get me started on that piece of shit.

diffy

03-03-2008, 02:45 PM

How many colors are you running? I assume it's three. What does your manabase look like? What Win-cons are you using? What sweepers? All of this has to be taken into consideration for me to decide if it's worth getting into the Humility debate. Don't forget, I was absolutely the first person to return to the card in recent months - I like it a lot, but it has to be built around. It denies you access to other cards in the deck, and it's something that can't be just tossed in. This, much like Counterbalance, starts you down a slippery slope that eventually makes you play a deck that isn't really Landstill, and may not really be better.

Last time I posted my list in this thread was here (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=212374&postcount=1247).
Also I do think that Humility deserves a spot in any more white-centric build of Landstill: you just have way too much synergy with it: Decree of Justice & Manlands (which were not added because of Humility but were there since for ever). The only thing it makes worse is your Eternal Dragon but he's rather a manafixer in the first place.

Moat, Seal of Cleansing, Counterbalance, Engineered Explosives, Crucible of Worlds, and Standstill.

How are Engineered Explosives, CoW and Standstill (the other ones not being in my list) situationally good? They are just pretty much auto-includes for Landstill and generally strong.
Also, with Enlightened Tutor you get to pick which of these situationally good cards you'd rather have next so that they actually suit the situation.

The question is, should they have been?

Right because you should start cutting Standstill and Engineered Explosives from Landstill...

Enlightened Tutor does not provide virtual Card Advantage. It creates situational card selection. The target of the tutor effect creates the advantage. Also, you're incorrect in thinking that hitting your 12th land drop is more important than cards in hand (FoF). Crucible makes you tap out on turn three, which means you didn't play Standstill on turn 2, which means you aren't as far ahead as you should be.

Enlightened Tutor acts as additional copies of the cards that will produce the advantage so it basically is the same card, you just have to skip a single draw for it which is not that bad if you're going to draw 3 on your opponents next draw or if you're going to make all his creatures suck or if you're going to trade n for 2 via EE.
Also, your balatantly exagerating example somehow sucks: if you're in the lategame, you've acomplished your goal and therefore you've won... now you better hurry up and get into the lategame. CoW serves the purpose of putting you ahead in your landdrops which is equal to putting you ahead in the state of the game. For sure you don't need to hit all the land drops till turn12 but hitting all your landdrops from turn3 on is quite important as it basically teleports you into the lategame.

You seriously don't see a problem with this statement?

It may be because I'm pretty exhausted right now but no, I don't see a problem with that statement. Also, I'm still not convinced at all that going down to one CoW is the right move.

Don't even get me started on that piece of shit.

It amazes me how every single one rejects this card... obviously without having tested it.
Let me resume my train of thought:
I cut a Wasteland in order to accomodate this which makes the color stability higher while still allowing the eventual CoW+Waste or access to Wasteland when you need it. For sure it CiP tapped but this drawback is neglected by multiple factors: you can simply play it t1 which only delays your Brainstorms or you can just play another of the plenty of lands you normally have if you need the mana. Also, producing blue mana rather than colorless makes this drawback acceptable in terms of manabase stability.
For sure it will suck when you topdeck it turn4 with no other hands and will be crushed the next turn by a horde of guys, staring at the WoG in your hand but this will not happen very often as you play a significant amount of lands.
Now this was only talk about the drawback of Tolaria West, lets come to the advantages it has. First of all, it is very flexible searching a Mishra's Factory in the control matches (where the Wasteland that it replaced would have sucked) or an Engineered Explosives in the aggro-control matchups (where the Wasteland that it replaced would have sucked) or an Academy Ruins for a friggin' lock with EE - its just that strong.

Nightmare

03-03-2008, 03:03 PM

How are Engineered Explosives, CoW and Standstill (the other ones not being in my list) situationally good?EE is terrible against Goblins, as is Standstill. Crucible is marginally better vs. them, but it's pretty terrible against Combo, for example. Landstill plays a ton of cards that are situationally bad or amazing, depending on the matcup and the board position. This isn't really rocket science. It doesn't mean they aren't good cards, it means they are situationally good.

Right because you should start cutting Standstill and Engineered Explosives from Landstill...If you're running ETutor, there isn't really any reason not to. Standstill doesn't need to be a 4-of, and Explosives doesn't either. Thinking that specific cards are cannon, for example, Crucible, is the kind of thinking that gets me all frustrated to begin with.

if you're in the lategame, you've acomplished your goal and therefore you've won... now you better hurry up and get into the lategame.And tapping out on turn three to play Crucible advances that gameplan how? Now not only do you need FoW turn 1 to prevent any hijinx, but you need it turn three, too, so you can stop it after you tapped out.

It amazes me how every single one rejects this card... obviously without having tested it.The fact that I have arrived at a separate conclusion than you does not mean I haven't tested the card. It is possible for people's opinions to differ. I think the card is wasted space. It's obvious to me that you don't put quite the premium on deck space that I do.

diffy

03-03-2008, 03:18 PM

If you're running ETutor, there isn't really any reason not to. Standstill doesn't need to be a 4-of, and Explosives doesn't either.

Okay, I think that we're on two separate lines here. I was talking of Enlightened Tutor as a Wishtarget for Cunning Wish and certainly not mainboard.
The reasoning behind it as a wishtarget: to solve things Cunning Wish can normally not handle or to get something when there's no immediate threat to handle.

Thinking that specific cards are cannon, for example, Crucible, is the kind of thinking that gets me all frustrated to begin with.

Well, I'm not thinking of CoW as cannon - I've cut it before but that was a horrible decission so it is back in... there's a reason that people consider it cannon after all.

And tapping out on turn three to play Crucible advances that gameplan how? Now not only do you need FoW turn 1 to prevent any hijinx, but you need it turn three, too, so you can stop it after you tapped out.

There's very little you actually need to counter that you can not handle otherwise (EE, WoG, StoP). Also, in the matchups where you need FoW from turn1 onwards (combo) CoW is pretty bad anyways so that you could just not play it...
Also, playing CoW turn3 assures that you'll get a constant supply of lands to actually play all those expensive, strong spells (with Counterspell backup or Daze proof).

The fact that I have arrived at a separate conclusion than you does not mean I haven't tested the card. It is possible for people's opinions to differ. I think the card is wasted space. It's obvious to me that you don't put quite the premium on deck space that I do.

I don't understand this, probably because of my English. I'll interpret the 'put the premium on deck space' as 'streamline' or 'don't include chaff'.

Now with that said, I still don't understand your point: Tolaria West is just way too flexible and actually allows you to cut down on those cards that you need but are only good in some situations (e.g. Wasteland) by increasing the virtual count of them - you actually trim the deck down because it can also get you something else than the thing it replaced, something that is not situationally good because you get to chose what you want.

Nightmare

03-03-2008, 03:28 PM

Okay, I think that we're on two separate lines here. I was talking of Enlightened Tutor as a Wishtarget for Cunning Wish and certainly not mainboard.
The reasoning behind it as a wishtarget: to solve things Cunning Wish can normally not handle or to get something when there's no immediate threat to handle. [quote]Tutor is even worse as a Wish target. If there is no immediate threat, why are you Wishing? It's meant as a way to answer threats, not as a pro-active card. Maybe that's the whole problem. Why are you playing proactively? This deck isn't meant to be played that way.

[quote]There's very little you actually need to counter that you can not handle otherwise (EE, WoG, StoP). Also, in the matchups where you need FoW from turn1 onwards (combo) CoW is pretty bad anyways so that you could just not play it...Therapy you naming Force of Will, Survival of the Fittest. Good Game. That's easily the most devastating thing you can see on turn three as a Landstill player. Aside from Tendrils for 20+, of course.

Now with that said, I still don't understand your point: Tolaria West is just way too flexible and actually allows you to cut down on those cards that you need but are only good in some situations (e.g. Wasteland) by increasing the virtual count of them - you actually trim the deck down because it can also get you something else than the thing it replaced, something that is not situationally good because you get to chose what you want.
It's a three mana, sorcery speed tutor for a land drop. I'm unimpressed every single time I try the card out. Why not just run Intuition and get three lands, since you run Crucible, or land/Crucible/Ruins? At least those are instant speed. In the vast card pool of Legacy, I refuse to believe that's the best use of that slot.

diffy

03-03-2008, 03:43 PM

Tutor is even worse as a Wish target. If there is no immediate threat, why are you Wishing? It's meant as a way to answer threats, not as a pro-active card. Maybe that's the whole problem. Why are you playing proactively? This deck isn't meant to be played that way.

I fail to understand this. Proactive has always been strategically supperior to reactive and if you can drop a Humility now or a Standstill now I don't see that being bad. Why am I Wishing? To prevent all further threats (making full use of my mana and not wasting the turn) or to set up my draw engine (because I know that I can handle near to all other threats via something else than the tutor... obviously if I'm up against Life from the Loam or similar, I won't do this).

Therapy you naming Force of Will, Survival of the Fittest. Good Game. That's easily the most devastating thing you can see on turn three as a Landstill player. Aside from Tendrils for 20+, of course.

Next turn drop a land, EE for 2, pop? Drop 2 lands guaranteed, Humility game? There're always scenarios that you can imagine... also, if your survival opponent has a Cabal Therapy, it becomes very hard for him not to resolve that SotF as he can simply flashback it for your other counterspell prior to playing the SotF. [As an aside, this matchup being not that great overall is another great argument for the inclusion of Humility]
Also as said, if you put your opponent on combo, just don't play the thing!
It's meant to help win all those attrition wars against aggro, aggro control and other control. When you're a little further in the game, it can also do a thing against TES by slowly killing their lands, but thats only a lategame plan (to be executed when you have some significant mana to assure to survive the next turn) to assure that they don't to stupid things with excess mana.

It's a three mana, sorcery speed tutor for a land drop. I'm unimpressed every single time I try the card out. Why not just run Intuition and get three lands, since you run Crucible, or land/Crucible/Ruins? At least those are instant speed. In the vast card pool of Legacy, I refuse to believe that's the best use of that slot.

Sure, if you splash green I believe LftL to be better (cheaper, semi-immune to counters, instant synergy with Brainstorm).
Also, this is much more than a sorcery speed tutor for a land... its much more like a tutor for all the lands you'll need and a proactive defense against (mass-)landdestruction. It also helps to prevent colorscrews by recurring your fetchies.

Nightmare

03-03-2008, 03:48 PM

I fail to understand this. Proactive has always been strategically supperior to reactive and if you can drop a Humility now or a Standstill now I don't see that being bad. Why am I Wishing? To prevent all further threats (making full use of my mana and not wasting the turn) or to set up my draw engine (because I know that I can handle near to all other threats via something else than the tutor... obviously if I'm up against Life from the Loam or similar, I won't do this).As you are a counterspell deck, it's a bit difficult for me to swallow the idea of you being overly proactive. Also, you aren't wasting a turn by leaving mana open. You play Counter Target Spell, it's a fine plan to bluff them. Tapping low on lands on your turn is usually a poor plan unless you have Force.

Sure, if you splash green I believe LftL to be better (cheaper, semi-immune to counters, instant synergy with Brainstorm).
Also, this is much more than a sorcery speed tutor for a land... its much more like a tutor for all the lands you'll need and a proactive defense against (mass-)landdestruction. It also helps to prevent colorscrews by recurring your fetchies.I'm talking about Tolaria West, you're talking about Crucible. You have no way to tutor more than once with TW.

diffy

03-03-2008, 04:01 PM

As you are a counterspell deck, it's a bit difficult for me to swallow the idea of you being overly proactive. Also, you aren't wasting a turn by leaving mana open. You play Counter Target Spell, it's a fine plan to bluff them. Tapping low on lands on your turn is usually a poor plan unless you have Force.

If you play Humility, there's just not a lot that you'll have to force in the next turn. Also, Cunning Wish for Enlightened Tutor for other stuff is your option when you have the current situation under control that means that you're at least turn 5-6 - by which you should then also have enough mana for both your ETutored goodie and a Counterspell.
If you drop down a Standstill, you do have some mana open (remember, Cunning Wish -> ETutor is a turn 3-4 play so you're earliest turn4-5) for your Counterspell or at least have a chance of drawing into FoW or your blue card.
Also, bluffing the Counterspell is pretty useless in my opinion: people over here have understood that you just keep on trading 1for1 with your opponents disruption until he's exhausted... and that you'd better start these trades as soon as possible because otherwise you just give them time to recover and draw into relevant stuff/permission.

I'm talking about Tolaria West, you're talking about Crucible. You have no way to tutor more than once with TW.

Oh, yeah, misread that one, sorry.

Adressing Tolaria West, for sure its a 3 mana sorcery speed tutor but this tutor allows you to clear a large proportion (if not the entire) of the board on the next turn [fetching Engineered Explosives] or it allows you to gain a huge quantity of virtual and real card advantage via establishing a lock with Academy Ruins + Engineered Explosives or it advances your clock against other control (this argument sucks, but you'll be really, really thankfull for that additional beater against stuff like MUC, once you've secured you don't get hit by those B2Bs [Meddling Mage, Extirpate] - you have to be the aggro deck in that matchup).
Intuition for stuff... sure that's an option and its instant speed too but thats even slower than Tolaria West (if your opponent gives you Academy Ruins) and isn't a land as a backup plan: it takes away slots from the already tight maindeck.
I think that your main problem is that you have to tap out on your turn, but the thing is that you won't always have permission online and that you don't need to counter everything if you can kill it otherwise!

Edit: Don't you love it when The Source is actually plenty active? At least I do. More to come tomorrow.

from Cairo

03-03-2008, 04:55 PM

I think that your main problem is that you have to tap out on your turn, but the thing is that you won't always have permission online and that you don't need to counter everything if you can kill it otherwise!

True. But why reveal that to you're opponent? If I see a Landstill player tap out turn 3 to pull up an EE, that pretty much guarantees I'm in a position to resolve a spell the following turn. Even if you have FoW back up I still will have 3 mana at my disposal to attempt a 1cc and 2cc threat.

I agree with Nightmare with the card pool available there are just much better cards. Intuition jumps out at me as being one of those much better cards. Being an instant is huge in a permission deck, and it's still able to pull up your lands in a pinch if needed.

Cunning Wish into Enlightened Tutor seems very clunky too, 4 mana and it ties up your drawstep is a pretty hefty price to pay. Argivian Find seems better although a more situational/late game, atleast it puts the card to hand so you're not wasting a draw step in addition to the tempo loss.

Bardo

03-03-2008, 04:58 PM

I don't mind say that I freaking love the idea of Tolaria West. It's a land-drop (in the worst case) and can fetch an array of powerful cards in the right deck. However, as much as I wanted it to work, and as much as I sort of looked the other way when it didn't, I reluctantly dropped TW a few months ago and haven't missed it (and that was when I was running MD Chalices, Wastes, etc.; i.e. more targets). A 3-mana sorcery speed tutor is not what this deck needs. It can't even pitch to Force. If you cut it, I can pretty much guarantee the deck will just flow better and be more consistent.

aTn

03-03-2008, 06:19 PM

I agree with Bardo about TW; I tested it in the UGb (Vorosh) build and it annoyed me more than I found it useful. Up till now, I haven't had big problems vs. Blood Moon with my UGBw list (see http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=211119&postcount=1215). I'm actually thinking of taking out the Hydroblasts and BEB in the SB in favor of CoP: Red. Has anyone tested it ?

Osse

03-03-2008, 06:40 PM

I have a couple of problems with Cop:Red over Beb/Hblast. You don't get to deal with first turn lackey with Cop: Red, and I realize you have Swords or whatever, but having 4 more is definitely nice. Cop: Red also doesn't destroy Moon, or counter Bwish. Both are pretty good against Landstill if I remember right. I'm not saying Cop: Red is bad, I'm just saying if you want to side it, make sure you're making it better than what you're taking out.

Mental

03-04-2008, 12:16 AM

I've also tried and hated Tolaria West. It's a loss of tempo in the early game, and clunky even in the late. Only in the extreme late game does it shine, but by then you've probably already won.

3 Stifles sounds right. I'm probably cutting Wastelands down to two. I'm now running exactly 23 Lands, so I may/may not be able to support Counterbalance, the answer is probably not. However, I will test it some more. If not, the spots can be well used on more control.

Have you guys also noticed that Landstill is becoming more Reactive? Or is that just me, in my meta?

Burr

03-04-2008, 04:13 AM

I see many of you do not like tolaria west, but i like it. I mean it tutors up ee, wasteland, ruins, and factories! what other tutors can do that? and even if it is early-mid game wouldnt u rather have a tolaria west rather than a land when your up against a hord of goblins (ee), or perhaps your opponent is currently mana screwed (wasteland). tolaria west doesn't take up a spell slot, but a land slot. So for me, its staying.

slyfer

03-04-2008, 04:25 AM

SO guys.... let me resume the situation:
Der imagine freund is saying that tolaria west is good, fetches, etc.... gives blue mana, etc....
Some others including Bardo (not a weak player) say that is not needed.... and I personally agree
Now the discussion is moving away from that, and we speak about Cop vs Beb...

It seems to be in a mental-hospital, or looking two deaf people talking each other....LOL

As regard the crucible debate I can say that it's both true, Nightmare and The Imagine freund.
1) Tapping on turn 3 for a crucible vs threhold guess what?? daze! they play 4x.
2) on the other hand fixing and provide constant land drop (expecially strong if you are playing cc4 cards, or more expensive cards like decree or dragon)
3) but wait... land ritual sinkhole...oh that makes crucible slow..they also have vindicate, so it's true Nightmare when saying you keep another fow on turn 3....and that's disadvantage (cricible + fow + blue cards VS vindicate) could be risky if you don't draw more goods.

I could continue endlessly with examples and results showed that some people top8ed with crucible, some with life from the loam, some with 4color color-risky build, others with more traditional UW (sometimes pure uw).
Recently I like UW build because I noticed that:
1) tormod's crypt in my lastest tournament experience was always better than extirpate. You recurs with academy also.
2) Blue blast I think it's more flexible than plague right now.... usefull in more match ups (burns, goblins, red stompy)

So in any case, also in case one wants to play some combinations with wish (is not mandatory!!!), UW has all the answer right now to metagame:
1) stable mana base, magus of moon no problem (wish beb, or stp)
2) life gainer is white
3) graveyard is artifact so ok, can be tested a trick like 1x tormod maideck and enlightened in side (along with some other 1x like humility)

Of course 4c is very raw-power (as results show) but don't be frustated when you lose by yourself when you get stifled, or mana screwed by wasteland or moons...

diffy

03-04-2008, 05:46 AM

True. But why reveal that to you're opponent? If I see a Landstill player tap out turn 3 to pull up an EE, that pretty much guarantees I'm in a position to resolve a spell the following turn. Even if you have FoW back up I still will have 3 mana at my disposal to attempt a 1cc and 2cc threat.

If you don't have the permission, it is not worth wasting a turn of mana only to bluff it: the good player will always go for the throat as quickly as possible, otherwise he will only allow you to draw into relevant stuff and give you time/mana to cast it.
Also, all these examples are highly situational... there's just not a lot of scary stuf that can happen to you on turn3 that can't be handled via an Engineered Explosives... and if you expect such sheanigans and actually happen to hold a Counterspell, just don't tutor... this is the beauty of Tolaria West - its never dead as you can always drop it as a land.

I agree with Nightmare with the card pool available there are just much better cards. Intuition jumps out at me as being one of those much better cards. Being an instant is huge in a permission deck, and it's still able to pull up your lands in a pinch if needed.

It pulls up lands or other thing while reducing the density of what you just tutored for in your deck making you more vulnerable as the game continues. Also, Intuition can't help you out of a screw situation - where TW still is a land drop. Seriously, I've never had problems with it coming into play tapped.

Cunning Wish into Enlightened Tutor seems very clunky too, 4 mana and it ties up your drawstep is a pretty hefty price to pay. Argivian Find seems better although a more situational/late game, atleast it puts the card to hand so you're not wasting a draw step in addition to the tempo loss.

So what tempo loss? CWish -> ETutor is the play that you do when you're currently on a neutral board - there's no tempo involved and even if there was I'd be glad to give up a turn and a draw to stick down a bomb like Humility.
Or if you're going to clear your opponents board on the next turn, there's not a lot of tempo loss involved either - you actually have handled the opponent's efford and traded positively so that the lost draw step is neglected by that.

I think this all comes down to a significant difference in playstyles and/or experience with this particular build. I tend to play this more like MWC with a blue splash where you people seem to play it as a MUC with a white splash... I just don't counter everything

I don't mind say that I freaking love the idea of Tolaria West. It's a land-drop (in the worst case) and can fetch an array of powerful cards in the right deck. However, as much as I wanted it to work, and as much as I sort of looked the other way when it didn't, I reluctantly dropped TW a few months ago and haven't missed it (and that was when I was running MD Chalices, Wastes, etc.; i.e. more targets). A 3-mana sorcery speed tutor is not what this deck needs. It can't even pitch to Force. If you cut it, I can pretty much guarantee the deck will just flow better and be more consistent.

Well my targets are Wasteland, Academy Ruins, Engineered Explosives and Mishra's Factory - I still really love this card and don't look back on cutting a Wasteland for it because in my oppinion its just better than a Wasteland (for reasons previously mentioned). Also, it has never been bad for me so far in all my testing and competative play.

Some others including Bardo (not a weak player) say that is not needed....

At least in regards to Landstill, I'm not a total newb either :wink:

1) tormod's crypt in my lastest tournament experience was always better than extirpate. You recurs with academy also.

The thing is that Tormod's Crypt, although cheaper and not needing a splash, comes nowhere near the power of Extirpate: it can't handle Life from the Loam permanently (only like 1-2 copies if you're lucky and your opponent doesn't have a cycler to instand dredge it in responce to you activating it). Also, Extirpate is awesome in the control on control matchups where Tormod's Crypt just does... nothing. It has also some uses in the NQG matchups where denying your opponent of his Goyfs/Gooses is extremely strong.

UW has all the answer right now to metagame

UW doesn't answer Life from the Loam or other recursion (e.g. Genesis) which totally butcher you if you don't answer them - that's where a black splash, Cunning Wish and Extirpate come in (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=212692&postcount=1257).

aTn

03-04-2008, 09:26 AM

SO guys.... let me resume the situation:
Now the discussion is moving away from that, and we speak about Cop vs Beb...
It seems to be in a mental-hospital, or looking two deaf people talking each other....LOL

Hehe... some of us can walk and chew gum at the same time ;) (i.e. have parallel discussions) - I'm being a moron here...

Some others including Bardo (not a weak player) say that is not needed

I have been playing at least three Legacy tournaments (20-30 players) per month for a couple of years now (and testing regularly), so I have a bit of experience (I'm not saying I'm the best player, etc. here, I just want to give you an idea of the sample size of competitive games I played). Although I'm new to Landstill, I've tested the crap out of UGb and UGbw (and actully won a 20 man tourny last week with the latter) and my experience with TW was bad; but as Bardo and others have said, the idea is appealing. Maybe I was unlucky...

UW doesn't answer Life from the Loam or other recursion (e.g. Genesis) which totally butcher you if you don't answer them - that's where a black splash, Cunning Wish and Extirpate come in.

I totally agree with that. The main reasons I like the black splash is the stronger Goblins match-up (E. Plague) and the possibility of screwing 'threat lite' decks with Extirpate (Threshold, etc.).

slyfer

03-04-2008, 10:30 AM

Well, in my metagame the are very few loam deck (sometimes even none), so that Loam isnt' concerning my average "duels".
Genesis is hit by tormod's and they cannot do anything in response and together I hit squee, and all the stuffs they have. Tormod's are superior in all the case in which you need to remove many things, and belive it or not, I had to face for example madness with survival, so you waste 1 extirpate to take 1 wonder, 1 extirpate to take 1 squee, and so on....
With tormod's I would have also shut down completely his circular logic in a crucial turn.

Why loam scares you?? it's not a threat because you also play crucible, so recurring wasteland is a waste of time for them (unless you are playing 4c landsteel of course....But I play UW with 6 basic 6 fetch, I've heard it's a bit more stable, don't you think?).
Are you scared of RG loam??? LOOOOL really with a UW deck like that?
The only situation is if they have a sismic assault in play, in that case usually you would have 2 turns clock.
By the way I'm also playing 3 cunning wish, so it's easy to include 3 extirpate in my side and a couple of black sources in main.

Now plague... very strong!!! LOL only match up: goblin, and it falls completely under their typical sideboard (krosan grip for RG, disenchant for RW). Blue elemental blast is usefull *at least* 4 other match up (RG aggro, red stompy, burn, belcher hitting more than 16 relevant cards).
Can you say that goblin match up is *unwinnable* or *far less winnable* without Plague??

One of the last issue that I understood was the problem of the manabase, and certainly the most stable mana base is UW or UW + black microsplash in the side.

diffy

03-04-2008, 10:57 AM

Genesis is hit by tormod's and they cannot do anything in response and together I hit squee, and all the stuffs they have. Tormod's are superior in all the case in which you need to remove many things, and belive it or not, I had to face for example madness with survival, so you waste 1 extirpate to take 1 wonder, 1 extirpate to take 1 squee, and so on....
With tormod's I would have also shut down completely his circular logic in a crucial turn.

Believe it or not, but Squee is not the threat against Survival based decks: its the Survival in first place and directly after it the Genesis.

Things that Extirpate can do that Tormod's Crypt can't, only in this matchup:
Turn them into a bad midrange aggro deck by removing their Survival of the Fittes
Switching off all their disruption via removing all their Cabal Therapies to give you an edge
Remove their main threats (if they're a threat light version) eg. Tarmogoyf

Also, why would you ever want to Extirpate a Wonder? Your Factories are probably smaller than any of their threats anyways.

Why loam scares you?? it's not a threat because you also play crucible, so recurring wasteland is a waste of time for them (unless you are playing 4c landsteel of course....But I play UW with 6 basic 6 fetch, I've heard it's a bit more stable, don't you think?).
Are you scared of RG loam??? LOOOOL really with a UW deck like that?
The only situation is if they have a sismic assault in play, in that case usually you would have 2 turns clock.

The trick with Life from the Loam is that your opponent gets to draw more cards than you do (reccuring the Onslaught cycling lands (http://magiccards.info/query/1264734.html)) which will eventually draw them into more threats than you have solutions for: Tarmogoyf (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/153.html), Terravore (http://magiccards.info/od/en/278.html), Countryside Crusher (http://magiccards.info/mt/en/89.html), Devastating Dreams (http://magiccards.info/tr/en/95.html), Dark Confidant (http://magiccards.info/rav/en/81.html), Seismic Assault (http://magiccards.info/ex/en/101.html), Nimble Mongoose (http://magiccards.info/od/en/258.html) etc. are all threats you'll have to go 1for1 or at best 2for1 for - a trade that you just can't keep up eternally if your opponent keeps on drawing 3 a turn where you draw 1.
Long story short: Life from the Loam will allow them to out-cardadvantage you while maintaining their aggression and putting you under pressure with manadisruption... and therefore Aggro Loam (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6793), 43Lands (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4020), Land Ho! (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1126) and the like are amongst the worst matchups you can get - unless you can get rid of their primary motor of Card Advantage to turn them into mediocre midrange decks which become relatively easy to beat.

Now plague... very strong!!! LOL only match up: goblin, and it falls completely under their typical sideboard (krosan grip for RG, disenchant for RW). Blue elemental blast is usefull *at least* 4 other match up (RG aggro, red stompy, burn, belcher hitting more than 16 relevant cards).
Can you say that goblin match up is *unwinnable* or *far less winnable* without Plague??

Well, Engineered Plague is not only usefull in the Goblins matchup. It's actually very decent against Cephalid Breakfast (kills their Dark Confidants and Cephalid Illusionists if set on Wizards), Empty the Warrens and random stuff like Enchantress (put it on Human). Also it does something against all those random tribal decks you'll encounter (Elves is not that bad) and against some Fish builds (again put it on Wizards).
Blue Elemental Blast has its uses, but I just prefer Engineered Plague because its a permanent solution and not only a counter to one of their threats - remember: Goblins has plenty of must handles so that you can't counter them all.

Bardo

03-04-2008, 11:12 AM

as Bardo and others have said, the idea is appealing. Maybe I was unlucky...

Let me be really, really clear here: Tolaria West looks awesome on paper but was a dud when I tested it seriously. Again, on paper, and the version I was playing it in, Tolaria West could fetch all of the following: Engineered Explosives, Chalice of the Void, Wasteland, Mishra's Factory, Academy Ruins, Maze of Ith and Tormod's Crypt (sideboard). Even with all of those options, it was still bad--being slow, clunky, sorcery-speed, CIPT Wasteland-target. I love the art and I love the idea of the card, but barring some way to abuse it in a combo engine, I think it's too slow for Legacy, at least Legacy Landstill.

I really wanted Tolaria West to work, since it opens up so many lines of play, but it didnt't, for me.

Re: Engineered Plague. It's principally for Goblins, but that doesn't mean it doesn't shine in a lot of other match-ups too. However, if the odds of running into Gobs in a tourney were not much better than 5%, I would strongly consider dropping them.

aTn

03-04-2008, 12:35 PM

Now plague... very strong!!! LOL only match up: goblin

I'm not saying Plague must be in every sideboard in every metagame, I thought that bit was obvious. Of course if no one plays Goblins in your meta it's not that hot. As was mentioned by Der_imaginäre_Freund, it's useful in other match-ups (see for example Mori's Worlds deck, which included 2 E. Plague maindeck for a field he predicted would be composed of Breakfast, Goblins and Belcher (EtW)).

Can you say that goblin match up is *unwinnable* or *far less winnable* without Plague??

It depends what you put instead, on the builds you're referring to, etc.

Are you scared of RG loam??? LOOOOL really with a UW deck like that?

Actually, I was referring to builds like the 'old' Terrageddon (GW with maybe a black splash) and Slide.dec. GR-Loam seems easier but recurring threats can be annoying/tricky.

I think Der_imaginäre_Freund covered most of what I was going to post.

P.S.: Justin (Osse), I'm testing Cop:Red instead of BeB/Hydroblasts these days but I think I'll revert to BeB/Hydro. In particular, I agree with your points but I'd rather test and then analyse then debate it to death. Issues found in testing: Removing threats > preventing damage, especially when 4 Goyfs + 4 Factories are your main kill conditions (i.e. no evasion) and you want to win the round in less than 50 minutes. Also, CoP can get mana intensive in certain match-ups. The only match-up CoP:Red could be good would be against Sligh decks, which I don't see a lot these days.

mossivo1986

03-04-2008, 03:11 PM

I wrote this big long response but it all comes down to this-

IF you are playing 4cstill and your having problems laying humility in the white based versions your playing the deck wrong. Ive tested these matchups over and over again by now and honestly decks like canadian thresh strive on you getting blasted in the early game and then not recovering quick enough. You need to know when the right time to play into the counter war and when to not. If you land humility in the thresh matchup it should be over g1. Gt you side in and get rid of their 8 creature deck and its goodnight.

Stryfe said something about Engineered plague against goblins being bad. Are you on crack? You still whipe their board even if they grip.disenchant it. If they don't you win. With cards like humility, deed, EP, hydro blast you better win that matchup. I mean you have swords on top of that. Dude seriously inless their siding in equal amounts of enchantment removal, your winning this matchup plain and simple.

Nightmare said something about t3 crucible in one of his recent posts. I can honestly tell you I don't cast t3 crucible inless my opponent is stuck and I see it that early. Otherwise I build my base and wait for their eot step, wish for something relavent and keep dropping my lands. Thats the most important part of the entire deck. LAND. If you drop t3 crucibles no only are you giving your opponent the go ahead turn pretty much you are also asking them to counter your spell or remove it, and your also saying that u like to keep hands with 3 or less land, which in some cases are good, but in my opinion keeping 3-4 land is idealistic for these decks. Anything short or exceeding that should be mulliganed inless you have outs like brainstorm or eternal dragon on two land.

diffy

03-04-2008, 03:21 PM

White-based 4c Landstill

Just for refference, here's a build similar to what he's talking about:

//// 4c Cunning Landstill (by Marius Hausman and Clemens Wolff)

/// Maindeck (60 cards)

// Lands (25)
4 Flooded Strand (http://magiccards.info/on/en/316.html)
1 Polluted Delta (http://magiccards.info/on/en/321.html)
2 Windswept Heath (http://magiccards.info/on/en/328.html)
4 Tundra (http://magiccards.info/be/en/300.html)
2 Underground Sea (http://magiccards.info/be/en/301.html)
1 Tropical Island (http://magiccards.info/be/en/299.html)
1 Scrubland (http://magiccards.info/be/en/294.html)
1 Savannah (http://magiccards.info/be/en/293.html)
1 Plains (http://magiccards.info/apac/en/4.html)
1 Island (http://magiccards.info/apac/en/12.html)
1 Tolaria West (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/173.html)
4 Mishra's Factory (http://magiccards.info/aq/en/67.html)
1 Academy Ruins (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/269.html)
1 Wasteland (http://magiccards.info/tp/en/340.html)

// Winconditions (5)
1 Life from the Loam (http://magiccards.info/rav/en/172.html)
1 Crucible of Worlds (http://magiccards.info/5dn/en/114.html)
1 Eternal Dragon (http://magiccards.info/sc/en/12.html)
2 Decree of Justice (http://magiccards.info/sc/en/8.html)

// Permission (8)
4 Counterspell (http://magiccards.info/be/en/55.html)
4 Force of Will (http://magiccards.info/ai/en/42.html)

// Card Advantage (10)
4 Brainstorm (http://magiccards.info/mm/en/61.html)
4 Standstill (http://magiccards.info/od/en/102.html)
2 Cunning Wish (http://magiccards.info/ju/en/37.html)

// Removal (12)
4 Swords to Plowshares (http://magiccards.info/ia/en/278.html)
4 Pernicious Deed (http://magiccards.info/ap/en/114.html)
2 Humility (http://magiccards.info/tp/en/236.html)
2 Engineered Explosives (http://magiccards.info/5dn/en/118.html)

/// Sideboard (15 cards)
3 Engineered Plague (http://magiccards.info/ul/en/51.html)
4 Meddling Mage (http://magiccards.info/ps/en/116.html)
3 Extirpate (http://magiccards.info/pc/en/71.html)
1 Blue Elemental Blast (http://magiccards.info/be/en/50.html)
1 Pulse of the Fields (http://magiccards.info/ds/en/11.html)
1 Slaughter Pact (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/78.html)
1 Enlightened Tutor (http://magiccards.info/mr/en/218.html)
1 Seed Spark (http://magiccards.info/rav/en/30.html)

The Savannah and Scrubland make double white so much easier to obtain.

Keep dropping my lands. Thats the most important part of the entire deck. LAND.

That's why I like Life from the Loam over Crucible of Worlds in the 4c versions (or in any with green): it just assures your land drops so much more reliably compared to Crucible of Worlds as you can just recur it and play it in the early game to not bother much about land destruction or screw. It's obviously worse in the lategame, but if you reached that you've probably won anyways.

thefreakaccident

03-04-2008, 04:50 PM

I think arguing about specific cards are almost pointless in this thread, as the card in question may be amazing in one variant and horrible in another.

The specific card that seems to be mainly in question now is Tolaria West
http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=136047

The card is not for all decks, in fact I only think that landstill could ever consider its' inclusion in legacy. However, if you find the time to actually play Der's build, his Uwb landstill, you will find that it can be golden, and the deck itself is more of a board control strategy aanyways...

My honest opinion is that it is the best build, but I have played the other variants, and do see their merits/strong points.

Just test his deck as a whole, I doubt you will be disappointed, and if you say you are chances are you are lying or haven't tested it...

Sorry to be so blunt about the subject, but I have consistently done well with this deck every time I have played it, and Der and his team have done very well for a very long time with the deck over there in Germany.

The deck, unlike other versions of landstill, has a way to actually end the game before it is over... sure pernicious deed can sweep the board, sure they are just going to play a ringleader the next turn and start swarming you again, or just play another tarmogoyf.

Sweepers are good, but humility is better. Humility crushes almost every deck in this format currently: thresh, goblins, ichorid, breakfast, survival, fish... anything that wins through the attack phase.

Der's build also has access to extirpate G1, which is huge, and I don't think anyone is willing to see how huge it really is. You can beat ichorid and loam G1!!!!! No other LS deck can boast that, ichorid rapes other landstill decks, rapes them silly (at least preboard), but clemen's build has tooo much creature control and extirpate...

Extirpate also turns loam into a very winnable MU, I don't think any other landstill deck has ever posted good results against loam, ever. If they did, they were lying.

I play landstill exclusively, the only other decks I own are thresh and dreaded fish (rest of the other cards are within the team)... I have been playing landstill since forever, ever since my teammate convinced me to play Uwr back in the day, I have loved the archtype.

mossivo1986

03-04-2008, 07:27 PM

I played against der's list with wastelands, and even though it wasnt der himself piloting the list I fealt the opponent had fantastic understanding of the deck and played it to the fullest extent. That said der's list I fealt had less board control then you say it does freak. I was never scared in any of the games we had because he couldn't ever put the same kind of pressure needed to win games in the mirror. Now granted I did land standstills more often and that tends to win games, but I also broke his by casting mine giving him three cards and giving me board advantage. Thats how unafraid I was in this matchup. I think the mirror does favor my list because I simply have better inevitability then he does. Sure he runs one more wish then I do, but he also runs one more humility, which is almost completely dead in this matchup besides for eternal dragon which I believe we both run.

That said I would take the four color list anywhere, simply because of the toolbox. As a player I recognize my strength is a toolbox deck like four color that also has the ability to take care of things without the wishes. Example : deed. Wrath to me along with humility is just alittle overkill on double white 4 drops in the deck. Along with running fact or fiction it just makes me go ew.

But if we are going to talk about raw power of the two decks lets compare the ability to end games as well, and I think the 3 c has a bit more of an advantage to end games quickly with no problems. Where as 4c can take multiple turns to get into gear even after its stopped all tempo from the opponents side. Thats not a big deal to me and I noticed also how powerfull life from the loam is and I think the 1-1 split is the perfect way to go. Even if it is alittle eratic its still amazing, and if you've ever had crucible in play and dredged with it, youll see what I mean. Its amazin~. I think just general cc, the 4c version is overall cheaper. It may be more color intensive but you don't have NEARLY as many 4 drop spells. Which to me in a tempo war against thresh which is something that ultimately ends the game is not in ders favor. How does he resolve a spell when his 3cc spell is wish and noones going to stop that at eot. Theyll just counter wrath and humility because hes sinking all his resources into those on t4.

thefreakaccident

03-04-2008, 08:00 PM

Your deck was based off of Der's list... but anyways, I do not understand how you can state that you end the game any better, as you run the same wincons...
Anyways, when it comes to mirror MUs, the deck does have a bad mirror against Ugwb, as wrath is dead in this MU, as well as humility...

The deck does however play better under standstill, and can sometimes win on this alone...

Some people may be asking themselves how this can be, but the deck can cycle decree underneith standstill EOT under standstill, and can tutor for additional factories/for a waste in a pinch under standstill... you can also win the crucible war with your ruins, as they will usually counter crucible... wish into extirpate is the key play here, as it allows you to strip your opponent of the valuable spells and give you the advantage.

If you do not cast humility (I can see no reason you would, unless they play goyf), you can cast dragon, who is especially deadly if you extirpate swords... I have won many games on this alone... I am not comparing mossovio's list anymore, his is the same deck with the additive of green for deed over wrath.

diffy

03-05-2008, 06:04 AM

Anyways, when it comes to mirror MUs, the deck does have a bad mirror against Ugwb, as wrath is dead in this MU, as well as humility...
The deck does however play better under standstill, and can sometimes win on this alone...
Some people may be asking themselves how this can be, but the deck can cycle decree underneith standstill EOT under standstill, and can tutor for additional factories/for a waste in a pinch under standstill... you can also win the crucible war with your ruins, as they will usually counter crucible... wish into extirpate is the key play here, as it allows you to strip your opponent of the valuable spells and give you the advantage.

Against the more widely played 4c builds (which I like to call the American versions - see Taco's list as a refference), you do actually have quite a good matchup, based soley on Decree of Justice and Eternal Dragon. Also you have Academy Ruins to win the CoW war which is huge.
The problem here is that you have dead cards (WoG, Humility) but this is really outweighted by the fact that you have flexibilty in Cunning Wish and those lategame cards.

Against the 4c Humility/Cunning Landstill, you obviously have a worse matchup because its the same list -WoG (dead in this matchup) +Deed (quite good in this matchup) - you then really have to play tight / know the matchup and have the supperior draw (as in most ~71 cards mirrors).

The thing you have to ask yourself really is: is the Landstill-mirror that a concern that you're willing to play a build that is, at least in my oppinion, generally worse? Also, why would you rather want to play Landstill than a Landstill killer if your meta is flooded in Landstill?

I am not comparing mossovio's list anymore, his is the same deck with the additive of green for deed over wrath.

His list is basically a rip of Marius's list (http://mercadia.de/home/page.php?site=magic/deck2/deck&id=61493) (see my last post) eshewing the 2 Stifles for a 2 Spell Snares (-1 Pernicious Deed -1 Tolaria West if you take my list (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=213029&postcount=1280) as refference).

mossivo1986

03-05-2008, 07:07 PM

Ok, first up I would like to announce to our community that "The proffesors" will be hosting an interview on youtube that they had with me earlier this week. The interview was mostly to drop Legacy as a phenominal format and try to get people to understand that what you do put into legacy is 90% of the time a solid investment choice. I would really appreciate it if you showed him some love and checked out his site, maybe even create an account and post a comment or subscribe. Its not much but atleast its a start, and even though he's young it may attract some younger players who watch his show to get into the format. Worst comes to worst your now getting beat up by a 12 year old with a tarmogoyf in legacy instead of some 30 year old living with his mom lmao!!!

So to reply to agent funk and to der my list isn't Alot like der's. Its got alot of similarities but that pretty much is it.

This is my current list:

As some of the sideboard is messed up I will give you all that is for certain. Yes I know some of the sideboard is missing and it's because I chose not to put it all down because it's a mix of Extirpate, hydroblast, and meddling mage.

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [UNH] Plains
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [B] Tundra
2 [B] Underground Sea
2 [B] Tropical Island
1 [B] Scrubland
1 [B] Savannah
1 [UNH] Island
1 [TE] Wasteland
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins

// Creatures
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
4 [IA] Brainstorm
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
4 [IA] Counterspell
2 [TE] Humility
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [FD] Crucible of worlds
4 [OD] Standstill
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
2 [SC] Stifle
1 [Dis] Life from the loam
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [IN] Dismantling Blow
SB: 1 [IN] Fact or Fiction
SB: 1 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
-hydroblast not sure yet looking like 2-3
-Extirpate 3-4
- meddling mage wouldnt run any less then 3

Der's and my list have many differences, and I think that when it comes down to it me having deed avalible is EVERYTHING in this matchup. I can lay it at will it stops his deeds and Im really not scared of any threats he plays under it. Like most landstill mirrors this one durives on who gets the best 7 and it takes them all the way. I feel like my version has a better opening 7 then his will. It's just an opinion and also I run 2 decree as well. So saying he is better under still is wrong. It's almost dead even.

If you want to search for the interview go to youtube.com/proffesors

Ch@os

03-05-2008, 08:23 PM

Hmm, i think you tried to play to much ideas in this list.
Green only for 3x Deed and a single LftL, not even one green SB card.

But not enough Deed needs Black/Green and Humility double White. So your mass removal is hard to play sometimes.
And thats another Problem 1xisland/1xplains, people dont play Bloodmoon/Magus / choke /BtB or stuff like these in your Meta?

But otherwise a great deck in the right meta. ;>

mossivo1986

03-05-2008, 10:06 PM

[Snip. Edited out above. - Bardo]

As for chaos. I wasn't asking for your advice I was showing agent funk and a couple others that there were some pretty big differences in the lists.

IF you must know I RARELY come across problems with this list, and honestly if you think that playing this many colors is tough, then your playing the deck wrong.

If you are trying to justify me dropping green then you should just turn and walk away now. As I'm not dropping deed. Deed has won me soo many countless games its unreal. It's quite possibly the third strongest card in the deck which is why it's played! Test the deck before you give me crap.

But not enough Deed needs Black/Green and Humility double White. So your mass removal is hard to play sometimes.

6 fetches
eternall dragon
4 brainstorm

and my deck has trouble producing g/b or ww? Are you smoking something?
The deck is finely tuned the way it is besides for the sb. I know this because i've been playing the deck for alot longer then it took you to judge my list upon seeing this thread.

And thats another Problem 1xisland/1xplains, people dont play Bloodmoon/Magus / choke /BtB or stuff like these in your Meta?

First off let me remined you that hydroblast is in the sb. That should answer your first two threats. Either that swords or FOW. If im on the draw and they get 1st turn blood moon whatever. The percentages cant be favoring you if you dedicate yourself to trying to screw mana bases on turn one is all im saying. As for BTB mono blue is the only deck ive seen run this card and it's really not very popular "mono blue." I think that deck is a joke but we wont go there.

I wholeheartedly believe that "Hatedecks" that run "bloodmoon" type effects to kill your board are suboptimal as they pretty much screw themselves against other mono colored strategies.

But otherwise a great deck in the right meta. ;>

raharu

03-06-2008, 12:48 AM

Regardless of wether or not you like the deck, with your friagile manabase and particularly openness to colorscrew, MUC is goint to eat Landstll alive. They have more control elements than you could possible hope to cram into the deck, at least as much, if not more draw, and enough permission to keep you from resolving anything relevant.

Tell me mossivo1986, what turn does your deck goldfish? Because in the MUC match, you get stuck playing really shitty agro, which is something the deck fails at. Keep in mind that it wasn't too long ago that MUC was in the LMF, and don't be so quick to condescend everyone and everything on the basis that you simply don't want to hear criticism.

Mental

03-06-2008, 12:57 AM

What do you guys think of this manabase in UBG:

2 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Island
3 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory

=25 Lands

I've been testing it to some success against Thrash, Moonthresh, and Dragon Stompy. However, I'm not just presenting it to get feedback, more to ask: Is it a good idea to cut down on Utility lands in Landstill and add basics? Because if you've noticed, I haven't cut a single blue-mana producing land from my list.

FredMaster

03-06-2008, 04:05 AM

I don't think it's too smart in Landstill running nonfetchable Basics. To me 2-3 Basic Islands and a Basic Swamp were always enough not to get in too much trouble from Mana Denial. Besides I think 23 or 24 is the right number for your manabase.

Tacosnape

03-06-2008, 05:09 AM

Alternately, you could just start running Nevinyrral's Disk rather than butchering a manabase. Rumor has it that 8 maindeck outs to turbo Blood Moon (4 Disk, 4 Force) and 12 post-board (4 Disk, 4 Force, 4 Blast) is pretty tech.

For those that care, I don't run 4C Landstill anymore. I run UBW. I cut green upon realizing that I had no Green in sideboard and that every time a Blood Moon came down, I had a Deed in hand I wished was a Disk. I may go back to Green if Blood Moon dies down. In the meantime, however, I find Disk to be only slightly subpar to Deed for the "Sweep everything" card, and the fact that it works under Blood Moon is a nice bonus. The following is my current list.

4 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
3 Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Mutavault

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare / Stifle (Ah, the endless dilemma.)

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Jace Beleren
2 Liliana Vess

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Innocent Blood
4 Vindicate
3 Nevinyrral's Disk

SB:
4 Meddling Mage
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Engineered Plague
3 Extirpate
2 Pulse of the Fields

Planeswalkers are fun kill conditions. What's neat about them is that they're primarily card advantage cards, as they take up the slots that used to be occupied by Fact or Fiction. Killing with Jace is a last resort, as he's used mostly to sit there and draw 3 to 1 until I get enough Manlands to win or a Liliana. Having 3 lets me pitch them to Force as needed or fearlessly drop one to 0 to draw, play the next one, and draw again.

Liliana is pure sex. She comes out and immediately starts firing at the opponent's hand, and can take a break if needed to get cards to seal your win. The animate-all ability is solid against all but a very few decks. While you won't always get ridiculous animations, it generally only takes one or two threats to cause serious problems for the opponent.

Oh, yeah, and, Vindicate? Delicious.

holkenborg

03-06-2008, 06:19 AM

Are the Mutavaults necessary? Wouldn't 2 Academy Ruins be better in combination with the Disks and maybe Engineered Explosives instead of Vindicate / Innocent Blood?

diffy

03-06-2008, 10:08 AM

Der's and my list have many differences

What are you smoking? This is exactly Marius's list (http://mercadia.de/home/page.php?site=magic/deck2/deck&id=61493) save 2 minor changes:
-1 Wasteland
+1 Academy Ruins
-1 Crucible of Worlds
+1 Life from the Loam

As said, Marius and I are working together on 4c Landstill (he does most of the work though) but our lists differ in the Stifle slot so that my 4c list is -2 Stifle +1 Pernicious Deed +1 Land.

I just really don't like people wanting credit for the work of others, especially if its such a straight ripoff.

MUC is goint to eat Landstill alive. They have more control elements than you could possible hope to cram into the deck, at least as much, if not more draw, and enough permission to keep you from resolving anything relevant.

This is true. However I found that the MUC matchup isn't all that bad: just focus on dealing with their extremely low number of winconditions (most play like 2-3) and they'll deck themselves. Humility, WoG/Deed are your main tools here and Cunning Wish -> Extirpate is a very potent play too. Postboard you bring in more Meddling Mages and Extirpates for your dead Swords to Plowshares and any combination of lands/removals to actually make your clock sort of semi-aggroish (remember: they don't have a lot of ways to deal with a resolved Meddling Mage especially since they'll board out their Engineered Explosives). I tend to name Back to Basics with my first Mage (their best chance at winning on the spot if they protect it) and then their removal if they have left some in.

Nightmare

03-06-2008, 10:42 AM

4 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
3 Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Mutavault

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare / Stifle (Ah, the endless dilemma.)

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Jace Beleren
2 Liliana Vess

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Innocent Blood
4 Vindicate
3 Nevinyrral's Disk

I don't like a lot about this list. Let's run it down.

3 Mutavault. While it's the best manland since Factory, it's still not a three of. I can see running two, maybe, but three seems like a ton of them. Are you consistently getting color screwed? Along the same lines, how bad does Wasteland kick your ass? With only six of the 8 fetches you could run, and no basics of your "Off" colors, it seems unlikely that you can consistently access the BB for Liliana and the WB for Vindicate when you're under manabase pressure from a deck like Eva Green or BW Pikula style decks.

Spell Snare/Stifle should be Stifle. And three of them. No question.

Are some dudes that are lands a legitimate enough way to win under a Standstill? Me, I wouldn't care if you drop it or not. You're unlikely to apply significant pressure under it since there's no Decree or Nantuko Mons, so you're at most swinging for like 4, which is fairly easy to deal with, even if you draw three cards.

The Planeswalkers seem pretty win-more, especially with no way to protect them.

There MUST be a better removal spell than Innocent Blood. At least Chainer's Edict hits twice. You already have 8 MD answers to Lackey, do the extra two make that big a difference?

I hate vindicate in blue decks. It's entirely possible that it's just me, but I absolutely Loathe the card.

On that note, why are you even bothering with Disk? Wouldn't a combination of EE and Wrath effects do loads better? If your big concern is Blood Moon, then run a couple basic lands, and give yourself access to like Oblivion Ring or friggin Disenchant. Disk just Screams Krosan Grip me. I've never been impressed with it unless I'm Draining into it.

holkenborg

03-06-2008, 10:58 AM

I actually liked the list and made some adjustments to it (the way I'd like to play it):

2 Academy Ruins
2 Flooded Strand
2 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
4 Tundra
4 Underground Sea

3 Jace Beleren
2 Liliana Vess

4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Cunning wish
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
3 Nevinyrral's Disk
3 Standstill
3 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares

--
usual sideboard

I like to include 2 Academy Ruins, 2 Engineered Explosives en 1 Crucible. I'm still debating to include Fact or Fiction, but I'd get a lot of expensive spells then... So maybe -3 Cunning Wish, +2 Fact or Fiction, +1 Damnation..

What do you think of these ideas?

mossivo1986

03-06-2008, 11:14 AM

I know the mono blue control matchup isn't favorable and honestly, its really not that big of a deal to me. The next time I play it i'll be sure to let you know "which will be like 6 months from now." Aside from that the landbase has rearely ever been a problem. And like I said to the other gentlemen, test the decks base before you make judgement calls. This landstill deck like many other requires a significant amount of skill to play. Bluffing is absolutely key and if your not good at that or don't understand why the list is so unorthodox then i'm sorry.

As for the manabase i've RARELY ever had problems with it. The only times I evere have is when I got t1 mooned because I had no force, which is already not a positive matchup but that didn't help. So shoot me for not really caring about decks that give up say. . . The goblins matchups and pretty much u/g/r thresh as the run pleanty of answers to moon. As well as running a heavy red for all the burn.

If you want to talk about me telling nihil not to speak with me then you must understand where im comming from. The messege I had sent before was pretty positive and I was telling the community that I did a good deed for the legacy people by taking an interview to try to get people rev'd about legacy. Thats why I asked you guys to pay attention and look out for the interview.

He then bashed me for absolutely no reason other then to say that my spelling and grammer sucks. Which I then followed up with a. If you don't have anything relavent to the topic I brought up, and arn't nice to me then why are you even talking to me at all? I didn't say any harsh words to him to catch that onslaught of metaphors and twisted sense of humor. So I asked him to just not speak to me again. Is that really that big of a deal?

As for Der, yes I do realize that the lists are similar as i've mentioned PLEANTY of times. I have stated and gave credit due to wasteland soo many times that I honestly don't think I could do it anymore. Check the previous messeges i've sent. I consider this version my deck, and if you don't then thats fine. I tweaked it and changed the sideboard up which ive released before. As I never end up needing meddling mage after board I cutt it for hydroblast, but now im in a tisy. I need more outs to certain matchups and meddling mage does change things completely for those matchups. Im considering dropping 1 engineered plague and adding 1 hydroblast and some mages, "3 is probobly the right number"

And if you were talking about wastelands deck vs mine then no, there really isn't any real differences except for monastary academy ruins switch.

The matchup I was refering to is the uwb_wish_still. And yes there are more differences in this matchup. I was saying that you have a couple more dead cards then I have preboard and the fact that I run deed makes me really not scared of this matchup. I also think having LFTL is great because its a recursive thing that you wont counter becuase its recursive lol. You might pate it but then your getting 1 card.

lebarion

03-06-2008, 12:28 PM

Disk just Screams Krosan Grip me. I've never been impressed with it unless I'm Draining into it.

Doesn't Pernicious Deed scream that, too? I think it is not that common to use Pernicious Deed the same turn it comes into play, at least 50%-50%.

I'm not a big fan of Disk, too, but I think that in UWx landstill it deserves some space. It is better than EE sometimes - against Goblins, for example.

Nightmare

03-06-2008, 12:29 PM

The question is, is it better than Akroma's Vengeance?

Also, Disk gets OWNED by Tin-Street vs. goblins. You don't want that guy on the list of must-counters.

mossivo1986

03-06-2008, 12:43 PM

Good point Nightmare. Thats why I thought disk deserved 1-2 slots in the sb. It may sound like a bad idea, but thats why its an idea. Nothing more. What do you think nightmare?

aTn

03-06-2008, 12:54 PM

Sorry for the (probably obvious) question, but what match-ups/problems does disk answer ?

I've posted the following list (for a Thresh light meta, althought the Thresh match-up remains fair) a couple of days ago and I'd like to know your comments. The manabase is almost as stable as Bardo's UGB list. On a performance note, I won a 20 man tourney with it last week.

Draw (12)
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Ponder

Control (8)
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell

Board Control (10)
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Vedalken Shackles

Creatures (6)
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker

Mana (24)
4 Mishra’s Factory
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
3 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains

Sideboard
4 Engineered Plague
3 Hydroblast
3 Extirpate
2 Krosan Grip
3 Meddling Mage

Bardo

03-06-2008, 01:21 PM

What do you guys think of this manabase in UBG:

2 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Island
3 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory

=25 Lands

Seems excessive on the basic Forests, since you have no way to find them sans drawing into them and an otherwise keepable three land hand composed of double 2 forest and a swamp is a mulligan.

Besides I think 23 or 24 is the right number for your manabase.

23 seems really low for Landstill, but it also depends on the number of Wastelands and other colorless sources you're running. Anyway, 23 seems really low for any control deck; I aim for 24-26.

Here are the current manabases for my 3 and 4-color decks:

U/w/g/b Landstill

4 Mishra’s Factory
2 Nantuko Monastery
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Island
(25 Land)

U/g/b Landstill

4 Mishra’s Factory
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Island
1 Swamp
1 Academy Ruins
(24 Lands) * the curve's a lot lower too

I'm kinda down on Wasteland for the time being.

Have you guys also noticed that Landstill is becoming more Reactive? Or is that just me, in my meta?

I'm definitely going the other way and pushing it to be more active--that's just how I roll.

Berzerked

03-06-2008, 01:42 PM

I like the list a lot. I'll go through the differences between it an my list, and talk about what seems better or worse.

-3 Fact or Fiction
-1 land
+4 Ponder

I'm going to try that change as soon as possible. FoF helps plenty, but it's usually turn 6+, when I probably have the upper hand anyway. Ponder seems like it has the effect of: reducing having to mulligan shitty hands, increasing the speed at which you stabilize, and keeping your hand full of business at a cheeper cost and with more selection (albeit not digging as deep) than FoF.

-1 Swords to Plowshares
-1 Engineered Explosives
+2 Vedalken Shackles

I probably would not make that change just because StP and EE have other applications than just getting rid of a small dude, and they do it faster. That being said, I have been looking for more wincons, and Shackles (kind of) doubles as one, so I'll test that as well. I might try C.Wish in that slot, as well, which might make more sense in this case, as you'd have access to StP in the board.

Tombstalker in the flex slot

I've been sticking everything under the sun in those flex slots, and I was not impressed with Stalker. I'm not looking for a vanilla beater (in other decks [Deadguy] he's amazing). I want something that beats but has a little more utility. Right now my slots are occupied by Quagnoth and Life from the Loam. LftL has many uses: insurance against Wasteland/Sinkhole ect., manland recursion, and an out to the crap pile generated by Brainstorm. Quagnoth is smaller than Stalker and doesn't fly, but can't be countered or targetted, which is huge - he ends games when he hits the table, flat out.

Nicely tuned manabase

I personally would never run a full 8 fecthes, but seven seems nice, so I'd probably go -1 Delta, +1 Tundra. That Swamp really doesn't make sense to me, so I'd go -1 Swamp, +1 Island. Other than that, it's probably the base that seems most likely to withstand Moons than all the ones I see posted here.

With one less Delta main, Living Wish might go well in the Shackles slot, to provide mana smoothing and some wincons.

Tacosnape

03-06-2008, 01:52 PM

Defending in no particular order.

3 Mutavault. While it's the best manland since Factory, it's still not a three of. I can see running two, maybe, but three seems like a ton of them. Are you consistently getting color screwed? Along the same lines, how bad does Wasteland kick your ass? With only six of the 8 fetches you could run, and no basics of your "Off" colors, it seems unlikely that you can consistently access the BB for Liliana and the WB for Vindicate when you're under manabase pressure from a deck like Eva Green or BW Pikula style decks.

Alright, assuming you're right about the first point and that 2 Mutavault is better than 3, which I will concede is very possible, that leaves me with essentially the same manabase as I ran in 4C, only with 4 basic Islands instead of 4 Tropicals. As I've been saying for close to a year, except for hitting all three splash colors (which is fixed to a degree by running less to fetch), my 4C manabase was solid and I rarely if ever lost games because of it. I could run this up to 8 fetches and 2 basics, but Stifle is a bitch. I may do it anyway though.

Versus Pikula or Eva Green, I don't really care about hitting Liliana. I care about stabilizing. Brainstorm helps defend my manabase, Swords and Blood help deal with things like turn one Specters, and whether I run Stifle or Snare, one stops Wasteland and the other stops Sinkhole. Should they try to hit my black mana to keep me off Liliana, this will allow me to win later with manlands. Should they hit the manlands, I can generally let this go through and save my counters, planning to kill them with Liliana.

As for Stifle versus Snare, I think I agree with you that Stifle's proving stronger.

Are some dudes that are lands a legitimate enough way to win under a Standstill?

Are you serious? Isn't that the point of Landstill? Manlands and Standstill?

It doesn't matter how fast the assault comes under a Standstill. Either my opponent has to break it eventually or I do. As long as -they- have to break it eventually, swinging for 2 a turn is fine.

Also, Standstill with a Liliana out completely shuts my opponent off the draw-go waiting scheme to crack it when I have 7 cards in hand when I knock a card out of their hand every turn.

The Planeswalkers seem pretty win-more, especially with no way to protect them.

Killing every creature that hits the board isn't a valid way to protect them? I run 13 maindeck spells that kill creatures with 8 more counters. Oh, and manlands can protect Planeswalkers.

The Planeswalkers actually fill the slots of draw spells in this deck, and I play them as such. Jace draws cards. Liliana makes the opponent discard cards or, if they're handless, sets me up a nice Standstill to seal the game. The fact that they kill if I find my manlands not sufficient for any reason helps.

There MUST be a better removal spell than Innocent Blood. At least Chainer's Edict hits twice. You already have 8 MD answers to Lackey, do the extra two make that big a difference?

Well, 10, counting Stifle, but I feel they do, given that over 1/3 of the decks in my metagame are Goblins right now, and one of the jank decks packs Troll Ascetic. Additionally, whereas my 4C could theoretically live through a Lackey hit if a Deed came fast enough, this build can't. Disk is at its absolute worst in this matchup, and it's too slow if a Lackey hits. However, on the whole, you could very easily be right. Chainer's can hit twice, Diabolic is an instant, Blood costs one less. Pick your poison.

I hate vindicate in blue decks. It's entirely possible that it's just me, but I absolutely Loathe the card.

I know some people of similar opinions. However, in this particular build of Landstill, I don't have a lot I have to keep mana open for. Vindicate kills creatures, which is important to keep Planeswalkers alive. It deals with problematic artifacts and enchantments. It takes down Rishadan Port and enemy manlands. And it'll even take out an enemy Planeswalker in a pinch.

On that note, why are you even bothering with Disk? Wouldn't a combination of EE and Wrath effects do loads better? If your big concern is Blood Moon, then run a couple basic lands, and give yourself access to like Oblivion Ring or friggin Disenchant. Disk just Screams Krosan Grip me. I've never been impressed with it unless I'm Draining into it.

Shame Mana Drain isn't legal. Le sigh.

I prefer Disk to EE/Wrath because I run absolutely nothing that dies to it. I run it essentially just like it was Pernicious Deed - A catch-all board sweeper. In my estimate, it has three strong drawbacks Pernicious Deed doesn't have.

1. It's a turn slower. This can kill you against Goblins or ETW, the latter of which is the only time I wish I had Explosives instead.
2. It's an artifact, meaning as you mentioned, T.S. Hooligan goes nom nom chomp Disk.
3. It's much more vulnerable to Survival's Harmonic Slivers. (If they Harmonic a Deed, you can crack it for 0 before the Harmonic even resolves, leaving their only target as Survival of the Fittest.)

In exchange for this, I get upside.

1. It's completely colorless, meaning I can cut Green from the deck.

2. I can play it under a Blood Moon. This means I can save a Force on a turn three-four Moon fearlessly if I'm holding a Disk/Force.

3. It only costs 1 to detonate, meaning it's easy to use, then drop a Jace or a Standstill on the same turn with a completely clear board.

4. It kills a few random things like Tombstalker and Myr Enforcer where Deed won't until way late game.

5. It's incredibly strong against Counterbalance, as decks run even less 4-Cost CB targets than 3-costs.

6. It's incredibly strong against Stifle. Stifle kills Deed. It just delays Disk for a turn.

Sorry for the (probably obvious) question, but what match-ups/problems does disk answer ?

Matchup improvement questions are always valid and good questions.

The same ones as Pernicious Deed. It's one card that kills everything on the board, no questions asked. Wrath sweeps all creatures, sure. EE can take out just about anything. But what about if you're facing an artifact/enchantment and a creature of different mana costs? Disk doesn't care.

aTn

03-06-2008, 02:23 PM

Matchup improvement questions are always valid and good questions.

The same ones as Pernicious Deed. It's one card that kills everything on the board, no questions asked. Wrath sweeps all creatures, sure. EE can take out just about anything. But what about if you're facing an artifact/enchantment and a creature of different mana costs? Disk doesn't care.

Ok, I see (thanks for the clarification). I'll test it and comment on it when I have something relevant to say.

@Berzerked:

Thanks for the compliment about the decklist. As I said before, I'm a new Landstill player, so I have a whole lot of testing to do before being to be able to analyse card choices without leaving some major factors out. Right now, I'm transitioning from Threshold, so I guess I'm playing (and viewing) my Landstill build as a variation of Threshold.

Concerning StoP:

My meta contains a good proportion of 'random' fattie match-ups like Angel Stompy, Reanimator, Bomberman (Salvagers Combo), Rock decks, etc. so I like the versatility of StoP. I guess it's a metagame choice.

Concerning the manabase:

It has actually been tuned to be able to play Tombstalker efficiently, thus the 8 fetches and the single Swamp (which makes BB easier to access).

Tombstalker:

I really like it. I view it more like a mid/late-game finisher (a bit like Mystic Enforcer in UGW-Threshold). I guess I need to get more testing done before concluding...

mossivo1986

03-06-2008, 03:26 PM

"The Planeswalkers seem pretty win-more, especially with no way to protect them.

Killing every creature that hits the board isn't a valid way to protect them? I run 13 maindeck spells that kill creatures with 8 more counters. Oh, and manlands can protect Planeswalkers.

The Planeswalkers actually fill the slots of draw spells in this deck, and I play them as such. Jace draws cards. Liliana makes the opponent discard cards or, if they're handless, sets me up a nice Standstill to seal the game. The fact that they kill if I find my manlands not sufficient for any reason helps."

Taco snape if this is your plan of attack do you think creating a small "tutor" secotion of like 2 cards would be a direction you could go in? As an example 1 decree of white and one of black? Just in case your opponent had mishra's factories. Im just asking as I think it might be a good interaction for solid lockdown strategies as it appears what your secondary plan is kind of leaning towards.

Tacosnape

03-06-2008, 04:28 PM

Tacosnape if this is your plan of attack do you think creating a small "tutor" secotion of like 2 cards would be a direction you could go in? As an example 1 decree of white and one of black? Just in case your opponent had mishra's factories. Im just asking as I think it might be a good interaction for solid lockdown strategies as it appears what your secondary plan is kind of leaning towards.

Probably not. Here's why.

Liliana isn't good enough at tutoring to have specific tutor targets because she can't do it reactively. Meaning if I activate her for a tutor ability, and something changes before next turn, I'm stuck drawing that card unless I can reshuffle pretty quickly. So if I tutor with Liliana, I'm either doing it to seal a game I've already got close to won, or I'm doing it to grab a card I need to bail my ass out of a problematic situation.

If I've got Liliana out early, and by early I mean before I have the game completely stabilized, chances are I'm either going to use her hand attacking ability to keep her alive and provide card advantage, or I've got a problem I need to solve and I'm going to stick the answer on top of my library immediately.

If I've got her out alongside Jace, or once I've stabilized with a Standstill chain or whatever, then I don't really need to tutor up a kill condition, because she is a kill condition against all but a few decks. If I need a kill condition and she isn't one, I can tutor up a Jace, who will either draw me into the manlands if they work, or deck the opponent. The neat part about Jace's decking ability with Liliana out is that I can do the area draw with Jace, then immediately fire off Liliana's discard ability afterwards. Alternately, I can use Liliana's tutor + Jace's draw to act essentially as Demonic Tutor.

While all this is cool, if I've got Liliana and Jace both out and both working easily, I've probably got the game under control with what's currently in my deck. The only cards I would like to be able to tutor for are Pulse of the Fields and Extirpate, but I don't think it's currently worth trying to stick one of each maindeck.

thefreakaccident

03-06-2008, 08:42 PM

If you have a heavy agro content in your meta, would you consider a Uwr color configuration Taco?

Here us my newest Uwr build:

lands//24
4 mishra's factory
4 flooded strand
4 volcanic island
3 tundra
3 mutavault
1 academy ruins
1 plains
2 island
2 faerie conclave

spells//36
4 swords to plowshares
4 counterspell
4 force of will
4 brainstorm
4 standstill
3 nevynrral's disk
4 lightning bolt
3 fire/ice
2 engineered explosives
2 decree of justice
2 fact or fiction

sideboard//
2 engineered explosives
4 tormod's crypt
4 meddling mage
3 red elemental blast
2 pyroblast

The REB cards are there primarily because if I am not playing against aggro, then I am playing against another blue deck... the REBs help out in those MUs a lot.

I see very little land disruption here, so that is why my build is build with such a gaping hole in its' defenses in that regard... I still play UWb (Der's list primarily), but I am trying new things... this variant used to be a powerhouse, still could be, I guess.

Mental

03-06-2008, 11:39 PM

I've been running 3 basic forests pretty much because as of late my meta is Thrash and Dragon Stompy. And since I have no answers to those decks, I need to be able to play a goyf through disruption/under moon. However, the forest can probably be cut down to 2.

UWB could be the way to go right now...god, I'd hate to have to pick up a set of Tundras. It does look strong.

Wasteland

03-07-2008, 05:36 AM

The deck is finely tuned the way it is besides for the sb. I know this because i've been playing the deck for alot longer then it took you to judge my list upon seeing this thread.

I know this too because I ( ! ) tuned the manabase so finely...
And I guess that i've been playing the deck for alot longer then you^^...
Greetz,
Marius Hausmann

Berzerked

03-07-2008, 02:36 PM

So after some testing with Ponder in place of FoF and a land, I must say I enjoy them. I can't necessarily compare them directly to FoF because they play such a different role, but they definitely work. I was able to find permission, answers, and get rid of extra chaff, all in turns1-3. It's obviosly not as good late game, but eh, I win when it hits the late game anyway. I'll test these slots more though.

Vedalken Shackles blew. Decks these days aren't packing as high a threat density as would be needed for Shackles to be effective, it seems. Goyf is too big in the early game, Mongoose is shrouded, Confidant can screw me. Idk, it was just kind of clunky and ineffective. I was much happier with an StP & EE in those slots. I have yet to test C.Wish there.

One thing I didn't notice about your manabase until I tested it, aTn: no Monestary. Sure, extra colorless lands can screw percentages blah, blah, blah. Monestary is a straight beast. I'd try to include it as atleast a 1 of.

@Mental: 3 Forest seems like a little bit much. So does 2. If you're running 24 lands, I wouldn't go over 6 that don't produce blue, personally. If you play 25, I still wouldn't go over 6, but you could probably do 7.

aTn

03-07-2008, 04:12 PM

Vedalken Shackles blew.

I understand that in some match-ups/metagames it can be underwelming, but in my case it has been very good.

One thing I didn't notice about your manabase until I tested it, aTn: no Monestary. Sure, extra colorless lands can screw percentages blah, blah, blah. Monestary is a straight beast. I'd try to include it as atleast a 1 of.

Godd idea, I'll definitly test it as a 1-of. I'll let you know how it turns out.

Burr

03-07-2008, 05:21 PM

Hey, what are your guy's thoughts on running tsabo's decree is a viable wish target in uwb cunning landstill? i mean i know its pricey but it can dominate goblins/slivers/other random tribal decks.

Nihil Credo

03-07-2008, 05:37 PM

It's obviosly not as good late game, but eh, I win when it hits the late game anyway.

This isn't meant specifically at you, Berzerked. In fact, I have no opinion yet on Ponder, as I haven't tested it. I just want to make an observation.

In lots and lots of control decks thread, I keep seeing this argument: "Well, this option isn't as good in the late game, but I win if I hit the late game anyway, so I'll just pick the best early-game option". However, the more you lean towards early-game choices, the more of that late-game advantage you lose, meaning that "reaching the late-game" becomes less of an automatic win.

It's sort of a zero-sum dynamic. Now, normally you'd aim for balanced chances at every point in the game, and then capitalize on your skills to tilt those in your favour. However, improving the early game offers diminishing returns to a control deck, since all you can achieve is to not lose better. Therefore I think a control deck should still lean towards a solid mid-late game, where it can actually exploit its advantageous position to earn a tick mark on the Win box.

aTn

03-07-2008, 05:48 PM

I agree with you Nihil.

There's no question, in the mid/late-game, that FoF is crazy when compared to cantrips like Ponder. What I liked about Ponder this far (in my build anyhow) is that it actually lets you dig for answers early game and helps you plan your mid/late-game also by digging (getting Goyf/Stalker when you plan to clear the board, getting counter back-up for a game-wrecking Deed, etc.). Then again, I might be playing the deck like a douche... I'm planning on testing 3 Ponder + 1 FoF and 2 Ponder + 2 FoF (respectively) instead of 4 Ponder.

P.S.: Until now, I have loved Tombstalker. He sometimes has the added bonus of removing cards you don't want Extirpated and to lower Goyf's power when it's relevant to do so.

Tacosnape

03-07-2008, 05:53 PM

In lots and lots of control decks thread, I keep seeing this argument: "Well, this option isn't as good in the late game, but I win if I hit the late game anyway, so I'll just pick the best early-game option". However, the more you lean towards early-game choices, the more of that late-game advantage you lose, meaning that "reaching the late-game" becomes less of an automatic win.

This was my thought exactly. Landstill wins the long game because it runs a lot of ridiculous card-drawers. If you start cutting the card drawers, it no longer becomes true. You start losing the long game to, say, other Landstill decks.

Ponder is also weak because it's not an instant, and turn one is when you -most- need to have instant speed spells to keep things from getting out of control. Turn one allows EOT Brainstorms if necessary, EOT Swords to clear a board for a turn two Standstill, a fast Stifle against a Wasteland, a fast Stifle against an opponent's Fetchland to timewalk into a Standstill, Or if you run it, Spell Snare to stop half the format when you're on the draw.

Threshold makes better use of Ponder because it has more options than Landstill when it has no mana open. It runs 8 0-mana counterspells: Force and Daze, and Daze is at its absolute strongest in the first couple turns. Landstill doesn't run Daze. Therefore Landstill can't tap out on the first turn quite as safely to cast that Ponder.

As for Fact or Fiction, FoF's biggest problem as of late is exposing you to the world of Extirpate. At the same time, though, if you run Monestary, it's fantastic at fuelling Monestary's Threshold, and if you run Loam, it's accessible regardless of which pile it ends up in. Fact has its strong points and weak points like any draw spell.

I personally prefer Jace right now as a draw spell. Jace can be a weaker draw than Fact and you have to protect him, but if you can defend him for a couple turns, he'll outshine any other draw spell in the universe. And in a rare pinch he can be used to kill an opponent, but if he stays out safely for a long time, you should be able to beat your opponent with what you have by drawing two extra cards every three turns.

Berzerked

03-08-2008, 01:53 AM

I understand where all of you are coming from. Remember, I just picked this up to test. All I play is Landstill, so I'm just going from what I know, but so far Ponder has been fine.
There hasn't been a time where I wished Ponder was FoF. It still digs, but earlier. I'm trying to get to the point where I have 5-6 lands in play before I can dominate. Normally I would agree with what you say about control and the ridiculous draw being good, but FoF helps when I've already stabilized, and I'm trying to hit threats mostly. Ponder digs for threats late game too, but it also digs for answers earlier, when I need them. Once I can Deed the field, the game is pretty much in the bag. The faster I can get to that point, the better, and Ponder does it faster. Again, after the Deed, it still digs for threats.
I also run Goyf, and running my own Sorceries is just more synergistic. Obviously not worth playing a weaker card, but it's a bonus.
Now, I'm not a die-hard Ponder fan or anything, this is just what I've observed.

On a side note, Shackles was amazing in testing today. Got to steal a Tombstalker, which was sweet.

Solpugid

03-08-2008, 11:37 AM

First turn is really crucial for landstill (like was mentioned above) in that you often need stifle/spell snare/swords/brainstorm (against discard) mana open. Therefore you are far less likely to cast ponder first turn. If FoF is really only helping you when you've stabilized (which, I must admit, has been the case on occasion during my testing) why not try out impulse instead of ponder. You say what you want is to dig for answers, and impulse digs one deeper than ponder (unless you use the shuffle effect, but that becomes random) AND is instant speed. That way you can hold 2 mana open on turn two for counterspell, removal, etc. and if the mana isn't needed you can just cast your dig spell.

On another note, I've been playing 4c lately and trying out different secondary removal spells. I've tested smother, i. blood, diabolic edict, shriekmaw, and ghastly demise. A 2/2 split of shriekmaw and smother has been working best for me, because it provides a few extra kill conditions (which don't often die to deed, unlike goyf) and fits into the removal slots. The sorcery speed hasn't proved as bad as I'd thought it would. Time will tell though.

mossivo1986

03-08-2008, 10:28 PM

I know this too because I ( ! ) tuned the manabase so finely...
And I guess that i've been playing the deck for alot longer then you^^...
Greetz,
Marius Hausmann

Hello Wasteland. It's nice to see you on the boards again. Any yes obviously you played this version and tested the hell out of it. I understand, but what I do want to say is this. I have given you credit soo many times for this deck in posts that I really just don't want this thread to become a topic of "yes im referancing wasteland's build." In short I've made some subtle changes as I see fit in my meta and the build I have is VERY slightly different. More like tuning I would even say. But realisticly i've been playing the build since we last talked. Remember way back yesteryear? Yeah, back then if you can remember. And if you look back then you'll notice I gave you credit every single time I referanced your list. The list I was playing. As time obviously goes along I noticed that monestary wasn't winning me games and that often times it was a dead land and I wanted something to help me control the board and make my mishra's that much better. This is where the inclusion of ruins came in. It enables me to continue the beats once I remove their hand advantage and keep control of their creatures. It also gives you yet another win condition "milling" and continues to impress in almost every game I play it. I also switched LFTL in for one of the slots of crucible and so far it's been great. I enjoy having card advantage even if I know I don't that most of the cards are lands ect. The sb i've come up with IRL is alittle different then yours as well, but once again these are just small changes. I won't even referance those changes inless you want to see the differences. And like I said they are small but impacting.

Your original list was fantastic, and it really inspired me to continue playing landstill and actually pick up this list for a irl deck. It just kicks the crap out of most of the decks in the field. And even in the mirror I feel like this deck has a pretty solid advantage over the field of decks.

Thank you for the beautiful build 4cwish_Still. -Joel Ferris.

Berzerked

03-09-2008, 06:54 AM

Your list, his list: who the fuck cares? Get over it, children...

First turn is really crucial for landstill (like was mentioned above) in that you often need stifle/spell snare/swords/brainstorm (against discard) mana open. Therefore you are far less likely to cast ponder first turn. If FoF is really only helping you when you've stabilized (which, I must admit, has been the case on occasion during my testing) why not try out impulse instead of ponder. You say what you want is to dig for answers, and impulse digs one deeper than ponder (unless you use the shuffle effect, but that becomes random) AND is instant speed. That way you can hold 2 mana open on turn two for counterspell, removal, etc. and if the mana isn't needed you can just cast your dig spell.
I'll definitely give that a shot. It's true that I wasn't using Ponder turn1 unless I was casting it off my only blue source to dig for more (normally I would never keep a 1blue hand but I've been doing it with Ponder to see if it's a correct play. So far it's been fine though). Impulse might have been the same if not better in most of the situations. I've never been a fan of putting the cards on the bottom, but we'll see how it goes.

On another note, I've been playing 4c lately and trying out different secondary removal spells. I've tested smother, i. blood, diabolic edict, shriekmaw, and ghastly demise. A 2/2 split of shriekmaw and smother has been working best for me, because it provides a few extra kill conditions (which don't often die to deed, unlike goyf) and fits into the removal slots. The sorcery speed hasn't proved as bad as I'd thought it would. Time will tell though.
What list are you playing that you have 4 slots open for removal?
I like to think I run a pretty optimal list tuned to my playstyle, and most of my slots are concrete, except for the 3 FoF + 25th land, and the 2 left over for removal/utility/ect. Shriekmaw was incredibly underwhelming in my testing (Of course I see a lot of Confidant + Tombstalker on a daily basis...), and Smother was awesome. Funny enough, Smother and Edict tend to be exactly the same in my meta: sometimes theres more than one creature in play, sometimes it's >3cc, but neither of those situations happens frequently enough that it can't easily be shored up by a Deed or StP.

Solpugid

03-09-2008, 12:02 PM

What list are you playing that you have 4 slots open for removal?

I've been playing a list very similar to Tacosnape's old 4c list:

Lands: 24
4 Tundra
4 Tropical island
4 Underground sea
3 Flooded strand
3 Polluted delta
4 Mishra's factory
2 Nantuko monastery

Blue spells: 22
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Fact or fiction
4 Force of will
4 Counterspell
3 Stifle

Other spells: 14
4 Pernicious deed
4 Swords to plowshares
2 Smother
2 Shriekmaw
1 Life from the loam
1 Decree of justice

The third FoF has been underwhelming, but I'm not sure what to replace it with that wouldn't just be another random one-of. Other than that, the deck performs admirably.

mossivo1986

03-09-2008, 12:36 PM

try disk?

Tacosnape

03-09-2008, 01:32 PM

I've been playing a list very similar to Tacosnape's old 4c list:

Two suggestions. (It would be three, but I gave up a long time ago trying to convince people that Diabolic Edict is really good.)

1. Try cutting Fact or Fiction for Jace Beleren. I've been more impressed with the draw power of Jace lately. If he comes down, the opponent -has- to kill it or they're almost always going to lose, and in the worst circumstances he at least gets you one card. He's also an alternate kill condition in your draw spell. You'll almost never use this ability, since if you keep the draw 3-for-1 thing going, you should win anyway.

2. If you do the above, cut Decree of Justice for a Crime // Punishment. C//P has turned really good again due to metagame shifts. It grabs Tarmogoyfs, it grabs Dorans, it grabs Witness and recurs itself, it kills ETW tokens, and there's a ton of neat enchantments to Crime, including Hoofprints of the Stag and Counterbalance.

Decree of Justice doesn't do a lot as a one of. You need two or more to establish any sort of power under Standstill that you didn't have otherwise.

Solpugid

03-09-2008, 01:57 PM

@ Tacosnape

1. I tested Jace a little when it first came out, and really missed the instant speed of FoF. However, I'll certainly try it again.

2. I'll be perfectly honest here, the reason I'm running decree over C/P is that I don't own C/P. As such, I've never tested C/P. Again, I'll give it a shot.

(3) My meta is rather bizarre at times, with a lot of random aggro decks. In testing I found edict to hit a pointless one-drop far too often for my liking (they sac a kird ape and keep their goyf, etc.). The targetted removal has just been much stronger, as the only threats I can't kill with my 1 and 2cc removal are gigapede (which I never see) and mongoose (which easily dies to deed and a blocking factory).

Berzerked

03-09-2008, 07:03 PM

I say the Shriekmaws should be Engineered Explosives. There's really no matchup where they aren't good - from a long list of creatures to Chalice to Needle to Counterbalance (supercharge it, of course) to other EEs on 0 for your manlands to Warrens tokens. Too much to name. Basically, though, I love seeing it in every matchup (I split Deed and EE 3/3).

I'm going to test Jace in my FoF slot as well. I still feel that slot is the weakest in the deck so I'm trying pretty much everything.

@Edict: Definitely depends on your meta. Mine is pretty creature light, but most, if not all of the creatures are 3cc/<. Smother just tends to be better most of the time. Like I said, sometimes they are exactly the same, but I've just enjoyed the targetability of Smother more. Also, Mongoose isn't THAT scary. I've got 4 Factories, 3 Deed, and 3 EE for that. Plus my own set of Goyfs. I can't think of any other creature (sans Troll Ascetic) where I'd rather want an Edict. Again, Deed/EE and StP shore up the rest. (I can obviously see it being better against Dragon Stompy, but that's non existant here.)

Bardo

03-09-2008, 10:53 PM

My gut feeling on the Planeswalkers: it seems like they just help you put away games you've already won. Like, playing a 5-drop in Legacy should be a really powerful thing. For 2GW you have can have a 6/6 pro-black flyer, for instance. Anyway, the fad has not yet worn off me and I've been playing this deck for the past week:

“The Vorosh Deck"
By Bardo

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance

3 Pernicious Deed
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Vedalken Shackles

1 Liliana Vess
1 Jace Beleren

4 Tarmogoyf

4 Mishra's Factory
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Island
1 Swamp
1 Academy Ruins

Sideboard
4 Engineered Plague
3 Dark Confidant
3 Hydroblast
3 Extirpate
2 Krosan Grip

I pretend the planeswalkers are these poly-modal cards that, for testing purposes, can be Jace, Garruk or Liliana. Often, I'd rather they were a Spell Snare, a Stifle or just something cheaper. Still, I got Jace and Liliana out together earlier and that was some of the most fun MtG I've played in a long time--they have insane synergies with each other.

Tacosnape

03-10-2008, 12:58 AM

I won a megasmall tournament today (All of 8 people, 3 rounds with Top 4) with 4C. I played the following list, sticking to my tried and true 12/12/12 configuration of card advantage, removal, denial:

4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
6 Floluted Strelta
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Nantuko Monestary

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Jace Beleren
1 Life From The Loam
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Stifle
1 Extirpate
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Diabolic Edict
1 Crime // Punishment

SB:
3 Meddling Mage
4 Engineered Plague
4 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Extirpate
2 Circle of Protection: Red

I beat Elves (Boggle), RB Goblins, BGW Aggro Control (Whatever the Goyf/Doran midrange deck is called), RG Goblins in the Semis, and then BGW again in the finals. The only game I dropped out of all this was against RG Goblins in the semis, when I kept Tropical/Tundra/Brainstorm/Force/Swords/Stifle/Plague and somehow never saw a black source.

Jace Beleren was good in seriously every single matchup. Even against the two Goblins decks. The worst he did all night was come down, draw me a card, then die to two Mogg Fanatics being played next turn and both of them shooting him. I never had to use his kill. The draw was enough.

The maindeck Extirpate was better than anything else I could think of in the slot. I only drew it twice, against BGW Rock and Elves. Against BGW Rock it won me the game, and against Elves it basically served as Peek when I wasn't sure whether to block a trio of tiny mana producers swinging into a Factory.

Crime//Punishment I played three times. It got me a Siege-Gang Commander to win game one against RB Goblins. It killed three 1/1 elves against Elves. And it stole a Doran against BGW Rock.

Oh, and, I've seen a lot of Smother/Shriekmaw talk in Diabolic Edict's slot. So I paid attention every time I drew an Edict. I can't say a lot about Smother, but if I'd been running Shriekmaw in Edict's slot, I would have lost both of my Goblin matches tonight due to my inability to hit resolved Goblins EOT. Between this and his being awful against Black decks, I won't be advocating The Shrieker in Landstill anytime soon.

Illissius

03-10-2008, 02:38 AM

Still, I got Jace and Liliana out together earlier and that was some of the most fun MtG I've played in a long time--they have insane synergies with each other.

Interesting -- it's like their abilities were designed to work well together in the same order as printed.

kicks_422

03-10-2008, 06:52 AM

Interesting -- it's like their abilities were designed to work well together in the same order as printed.

I never realized that. That's just... Awesome.

Taco, have you ever missed EE's in the main? I think it's one of the best cards to run in 4C, since obviously you can ramp it up to 4. Also a great sweeper after Deed, since Deed's usually the first one to get Needle'd.

I've been working on UBG solely for the past weeks now, here's where I'm at.

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [R] Underground Sea
3 [R] Tropical Island
4 [UNH] Island
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
1 [UNH] Swamp
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins

// Creatures
3 [FUT] Tombstalker

// Spells
4 [MM] Counterspell
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
3 [IN] Fact or Fiction
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [SC] Stifle
2 [RAV] Putrefy
2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip

Yeah, I copied Bardo's manabase for UBG. Also, i just think that Tombstalker is a great card here, since it dodges your sweepers and easy to cast before dropping a Standstill on the same turn and/or keeping mana open.

Tacosnape

03-10-2008, 01:44 PM

Taco, have you ever missed EE's in the main? I think it's one of the best cards to run in 4C, since obviously you can ramp it up to 4. Also a great sweeper after Deed, since Deed's usually the first one to get Needle'd.

Crime//Punishment largely serves the same functional purpose as Engineered Explosives, with a few noted differences.

The Drawbacks of Crime//Punishment:
1. You need green/black to cast Punishment versus no specific colors for EE.
2. You can't split the cost of the sweep up over two turns like you can with EE.
3. You can't drop C//P as an out to things like Decree of Justice before dropping a Standstill.

The Good Points of Crime//Punishment:
1. It's a kill condition. Usually, it's a kill condition called Tarmogoyf or Siege-Gang Commander or whatnot. Kill conditions built into your control cards are very very good, as Jace Beleren is teaching me. Point 1 is really enough to outweigh the drawbacks for me.
2. Punishment for 2 (CMC 4) is fantastic at killing Counterbalance. Or -stealing- Counterbalance.
3. Punishment can't be Needled or Stifled.
4. Crime stops cards like Genesis and Eternal Dragon from being nightmares.

Berzerked

03-10-2008, 08:07 PM

1. It's a kill condition. Usually, it's a kill condition called Tarmogoyf or Siege-Gang Commander or whatnot. Kill conditions built into your control cards are very very good, as Jace Beleren is teaching me. Point 1 is really enough to outweigh the drawbacks for me.

Hmm...sounds a lot like my reasoning for Tarmogoyf.

And don't try to say Goyf isn't a control card in Landstill. It's counter-bait, removal-bait, creature control, and a massive kill condition for 1G.

I just don't understand how, if you tested it, you didn't enjoy it. There aren't better cards to play: I run Goyf in your Stifle/Extirpate slots. I've tested both heavily (actually only Stifle in the main, but I probably would not run Extirpate main, especially as a singleton) and Goyf is better (except against storm combo, where at least Goyf is a fast clock, but nothing compared to Stifle).

Tacosnape

03-10-2008, 08:23 PM

I just don't understand how, if you tested it, you didn't enjoy it. There aren't better cards to play: I run Goyf in your Stifle/Extirpate slots.

Because I've never found Tarmogoyf to be necessary to win a game and it's never won me a game that I wouldn't have won if it were Stifle/Extirpate, and because Stifle/Extirpate wins me games Tarmogoyf won't. If Stifle/Extirpates were Tarmogoyf, I might have gone 0-3 in that tournament, although 1-2 is more likely.

Stifle is better against Storm Combo. Stifle is better against anything that runs Wasteland, anything that runs Eternal Witness. Stifle, contrary to popular belief, is significantly better against Goblins. Stifle is blue.

Extirpate is there because I currently think it's better than the fourth Stifle. It will let me steal games against things like Aggro Loam and Ichorid that would wreck me if it were Tarmogoyf.

Crime//Punishment and Jace Beleren aren't primarily kill conditions. Crime//Punishment is primarily an Engineered Explosives replacement. Jace Beleren is a Fact or Fiction replacement. Both can kill the opponent directly if needed, though if Jace lives, it usually -isn't- needed.

Tarmogoyf is primarily a kill condition. It might bait removal, but so what? All you're doing is enabling otherwise dead cards. The numero uno threat remover, Swords to Plowshares, is dead against Landstill until I've already got complete control of the game, at which point all it does is delay the inevitable. Ditto for Warren Weirding, which is increasingly common in Goblins these days. Ditto Shriekmaw in Survival, and Snuff Out in Eva Green. Slightly less so for Shriekmaw, who's a bad 3/2 in a pinch (Mishra's Factory >> Fear, even if you're somehow short on removal.)

As for counter-bait, the only time someone's going to counter a Goyf against Landstill is if they don't have removal and can't afford to ignore it. The only deck I can see doing this is Threshold, which runs small amounts of removal and can't afford to sit in a stalemate for several turns.

Berzerked

03-10-2008, 09:23 PM

Eh, you can argue whether you would have won a game or not in any scenario with any card choices. Obviously, situations change.

Like I said, Stifle is better against Storm, but I used to run Stifle in my 2 flex slots alongside the set of Goyfs when TES and Belcher were all I saw. Worked fine.

Now all I see is Thresh-esque decks and black aggro-control (Wasteland galore). Goyf stomps these decks because I run 10 kill conditions and they don't run that much removal. If I just ran the Factories + Monasterys, there would be a greater need to counter removal, and that's not always possible with other counters/discard, and opposing threats to counter in the mix. I'd also rather have a Goyf against Deadguy than Stifle. Sure I can Stifle a Waste...cool. But I run 25 land and have no pressing mana problems ever. I'd rather have both of us trade a land drop and then I can play the Goyf later and watch their expression. Wasteland is only relevant when its targeting a Factory/Monastery. Well, that's what I have LftL for.

Also, I love it when Goyf gets Plowed. +6 life and 1 less StP for Factory (which means they waste non-remove-from-game removal and can just use LftL). Warrens I haven't encountered, but I understand your point there. Same with Shriekmaw. Snuff Out is the same as StP but they lose life instead...cool, again, one less for Factory.

Mental

03-10-2008, 11:25 PM

I just played this to a 3-0-2 finish at a local tournament and took home $40.

3x Flooded Strand
3x Polluted Delta
3x Tropical Island
3x Underground Sea
2x Wasteland
3x Island
1x Swamp
2x Academy Ruins
4x Mishra's Factory

4x Tarmogoyf

4x Brainstorm
4x Standstill
4x Force of Will
4x Counterspell
4x Pernicious Deed
3x Engineered Explosives
3x Stifle
2x Smother
2x Fact or Fiction
1x Life from the Loam
1x Crucible of Worlds

Sideboard:
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Blue Elemental Blast
4x Leyline of the Void
3x Krosan Grip

A few explanations:
-Tarmogoyf isn't just useless bait, a wincon, and creature control. It's a threat that puts on opponent on a clock. This makes it so they don't have forever to get through a the massive card advantage you've generated w/out a way to capitalize on it. For instance, against a deck like Storm Combo: Without Goyf, they'll auto win because they can just sit on their ass until they have double chant and other goodies. With Goyf, they need to win fast and you probably have at least one counter/FoW. Basically, Goyf makes your opponent have to win quickly, something you're good at stopping from happening.
-Stifle: There's a lot of Threshold/Wastelands in my Meta. Plus it's just randomly amazing. Yeah, some guy plays Sensei/Sensei.
-No Shackles: Ugg, that card is pure shit. It's only good against 2 decks: Jank and Goblins. You already beat Jank and I'll take a match loss to Goblins - No one I know plays in anyways. It sucks in almost every other MU.

Round one a drew with 43lands, round 2 I drew with Counterslivers, round 3 I beat Diglett.dec from the CANG contest, round 4 I beat Power Artifact Combo, Round 5 I beat BloodMoonStax.

This deck list seems good to me. Comments?

Tacosnape

03-10-2008, 11:34 PM

@Mental: How was Chalice of the Void? I found that to be a very interesting choice, but your decklist seems to support it fairly well. Where'd it help?

Mental

03-10-2008, 11:37 PM

@Mental: How was Chalice of the Void? I found that to be a very interesting choice, but your decklist seems to support it fairly well. Where'd it help?

Round 1 I boarded it in against 43lands.
When it came down, it was strong, but it hurt me almost as much as it hurt him. It protected my Crucible from Hull Breach, which was nice (I was facing down crusher with recurring Mishra's Factory), but it prevented my from playing my second Goyf. I probably couldn't have even drawn that game otherwise, though.
Round 2 I boarded it in against Meathooks.
First I played it at one, and beat him to death with Mishra's Factories through a hand of STP, Top, etc. So it was strong there.
Next game I played it at 2, and it did slow him down, but was generally weaker, I think, than at one. I can deed to kill his slivers when I have to, besides, my Goyfs are just bigger in general.
I didn't board it in any other games. I did feel like it was the weakest spot in my SB, however, all the cards in my SB felt fairly strong, so I don't think I'll be cutting it any time soon.

Soto

03-11-2008, 12:13 AM

Double Academy Ruins?! Really? I would change that to a third Wasteland right away if I were you. Even without a way to get to it fast (like Tolaria West in previous lists) it's still not worth that many spots.

Berzerked

03-11-2008, 12:28 AM

Not worth the one slot, imo. Because it requires another card to even do anything, I see the fact that it's non-basic and colorless producing being a problem more often than it being a pretty conditional, mana-intensive, "cute" trick. Even Mutavault looks better here.

Chalice seems pretty cool.

Reasoning for LLotV over Extirpate?

Tacosnape

03-11-2008, 12:34 AM

Reasoning for LLotV over Extirpate?

I was wondering this too, actually. I'm a bigger fan of Extirpate in control, esp. Landstill.

Mental

03-11-2008, 01:39 AM

Here's my reasoning on both:
-Academy Ruins: I won 1 game to EE lock. So many decks just scoop to that that I felt I had to run it. EE also recurs crucible when you really need to get wastelock/chumpers going. 3 Wastelands is a bit excessive, I think.
-LotV: Comes down faster against 43 Lands and is better against Ichorid. And those are the main decks that abuse the 'yard in my meta.

tyrcho

03-11-2008, 12:32 PM

Berzerked

03-11-2008, 12:57 PM

I can't speak for anyone else, but I can tell you what the experiences are with my build. I run the same manabase except for the addition of 1 Island. I find this helps plenty post-board when I might not have the BeB in hand, but can actively fetch the Island. I also have toyed around with Cunning Wish, which gives you BeB in game 1, and is all playable off that 1 Island (assuming the moon didn't hit before your first land drop, unless you can draw into the Island and Wish before too much craziness). Fetch>Tundra>StP is a fine out to Magus. I've been trying out a new manabase, as well, with Dragon Stompy in mind:

4 Mishra's Factory
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Plains/Forest
1 Nantuko Monastery
4 Island

I'm not sure whether it's better to be able to cast StP or Goyf/Grip under a moon. I'd assume Goyf/Grip would be better, but I don't like having a non-fetchable basic, and I refuse to run fetches that don't hit every color, so idk. Guess I just have to hope for some enemy color fetches, which would make sense for WotC to print, as the normal fetches are rotating out of Extended soon, and I can't see extended being too enjoyable/different from Type2 without them.

Tacosnape

03-11-2008, 01:50 PM

The list seems really strong, but I'm worried about the nonbasic hate rampant in my meta.

I wonder how is the matchup against a deck with 4-8 moon effects maindeck, such as dragon stompy. Is it that the probability for an uncounterable (no Force, too early for counterspell) moon is low enough game 1 and the BeB come early enough game 2 ? I'd be interested in the math for a standard stompy build to know the probability ...

Also, what are your results agains the B/x variants (eva green, pikula, Bgw deadguy, red death) which pack wasteland, sinkhole, and possibly vindicate ? Is stifle enough or do you miss the 2x LftL/Crucible package ?

I don't know the exact numbers on Dragon Stompy, but it's not overwhelmingly great and you will lose game 1 to Moon effects on occasion. Game 2 is made better by Blue Elemental Blast if they don't Chalice it. However, trying to fix the build to survive a Blood Moon is almost impossible without dropping games elsewhere due to manabase inconsistencies. If your initial seven is decent and has a Force, your chances are pretty good. I take my slightly unfavorable match against Dragon Stompy and roll with it.

B/x is much better. Eva Green and Red Death have to kill you on their initial bursts, and as long as you're prepared for Sinkhole, you should be okay (Does anyone even play Red Death anymore?). Also, don't count on a Deed in your hand to stop a threat, as Tombstalker is immune. Seal of Primordium can be annoying against Standstill, but that's life. BGW Deadguy isn't too bad, either. Vindicate on Jace is annoying, but you can fight through most of their disruption and wreck their threats. Pikula's probably the worst one to deal with, but they run so few threats that if you can keep their disruption from shutting you down, it's not hard to get rid of them.

thefreakaccident

03-11-2008, 02:29 PM

Tacosnape

03-11-2008, 02:44 PM

If you guys are really concerned about eva green, you could look into some old school teck... I am looking at teferi's response, it hits wasteland, sinkhole, vindicate, and it draws you 2 cards....

People have actually been doing this off and on in my metagame over the past year. The problem is that the most common hate is now Blood Moon, which Response does nothing against.

Also, it's a shame that the card Teferi's Response owns like no other, Rishadan Port, is played less than it once was.

Burr

03-11-2008, 06:58 PM

socialite

03-11-2008, 07:10 PM

I've also considered running Teferi's Response main decked. Not only does it stop wastelands, ports, sinkholes, and other land destructions but it also protects your manlands. For example, if your opponent attempted to plow your factory you could respond with a Teferi's Response and pick up 2 additional cards.

Narrow

If you are that worried about said land destroying effects, you might as well just run Counterspell and or Stifle in the place of Teferi's Garbage.

Burr

03-12-2008, 12:36 AM

Narrow

If you are that worried about said land destroying effects, you might as well just run Counterspell and or Stifle in the place of Teferi's Garbage.

Yup, this is why i decided not to run it. The idea of it seems cool but its not worth the spot.
On another note, I'm still struggling with the decision of running return to dust or dismantling blow in my wish spot. Return to dust is good for card advantage but most of the time most deck's dont have 2 enchantments/artifacts that are of a big concern, and sometimes that double white in its CC can hurt.

Mister Agent

03-12-2008, 01:08 AM

I don't know the exact numbers on Dragon Stompy, but it's not overwhelmingly great and you will lose game 1 to Moon effects on occasion. Game 2 is made better by Blue Elemental Blast if they don't Chalice it. However, trying to fix the build to survive a Blood Moon is almost impossible without dropping games elsewhere due to manabase inconsistencies. If your initial seven is decent and has a Force, your chances are pretty good. I take my slightly unfavorable match against Dragon Stompy and roll with it.

This actually brings to another question Tacosnape. What if you run into Alix Hatfield/Jesse Hatfield playing with their moonthresh against you and your 4c landstill? What would you do to try to win the matchup? Obviously, their countertop and addition to blood moon effects can cause a huge deal of issues. Especially since their moons cost three and not two/four so their counterbalance can counter your deeds and krosan grips if you run them. Sorry I am just wondering but I feel this matchup needs to be addressed.

Tacosnape

03-12-2008, 01:58 AM

This actually brings to another question Tacosnape. What if you run into Alix Hatfield/Jesse Hatfield playing with their moonthresh against you and your 4c landstill? What would you do to try to win the matchup? Obviously, their countertop and addition to blood moon effects can cause a huge deal of issues. Especially since their moons cost three and not two/four so their counterbalance can counter your deeds and krosan grips if you run them. Sorry I am just wondering but I feel this matchup needs to be addressed.

This is probably as bad as a Threshold match can get. Without Blood Moon I steamroll Threshold. With, eh.

Obviously I'd attempt to get ahead on cards as fast as humanly possible. I'd Stifle fetchlands pretty quick if it meant having an extra turn to get set up before the enchantments from hell arrive.

Blood Moon has to be countered unless a Deed's already on the board, and even then you risk Stifle (I assume MoonThresh runs it?) But Blood Moon won't be lurking atop the library to counter a Deed or a Grip all that often. And as far as I'm aware, the deck only maindecks a pair, meaning that's less I have to stop and less frequency of Counterbalance hitting my Deeds.

Secondly, I try to stop Counterbalance. Assuming I stop the assaults on my manabase, Threshold never wins without a Counterbalance on the board, simply because I run more removal than they run threats and have more substantial draw the longer the game goes.

If this were present in my metagame, there's absolutely no way I wouldn't be running Krosan Grip in board (Bye, COP: Red.) It's even possible that it might be worth looking into Annul if Moonthresh is prevalent, as Annul has random use against a large array of decks, and it nails both Counterbalance and Blood Moon.

Keep in mind I'm not a huge fan of Moonthresh, and I think a large part of its success thus far is due to ridiculous skill level and comfort on the part of the Hatfields. Therefore until Blood Moon becomes as core for Threshold as Counterbalance has, I don't intend to worry about it too much. However, if the metagame refuses to adapt and continues to sink into a mire of Blood Moon Deck-beats Nonbasic deck-beats Basic Deck-beats Blood Moon deck, Moonthresh will probably continue to thrive.

Burr

03-13-2008, 01:49 AM

Hey,
I've been struggling lately with the decision of what to cut from my deck to add stifles, as i think they are very strong. So heres my question, is the 4th standstill absolutley needed? I've been thinking of cutting down to 3 so that my card advantage cards would be:
3 standstill
4 brainstorm

I would also think about adding fact or fiction into my wishboard. What do you guys think?

Tacosnape

03-13-2008, 02:44 AM

Hey,
I've been struggling lately with the decision of what to cut from my deck to add stifles, as i think they are very strong. So heres my question, is the 4th standstill absolutley needed? I've been thinking of cutting down to 3 so that my card advantage cards would be:
3 standstill
4 brainstorm

I think it's a mistake. Card draw is how Landstill wins games. Brainstorm/Standstill/Wish is a questionable draw package as it is (It can get away with it due to Wish's versatility), and weakening it further turns risky in a hurry.

TheMagicWizard

03-13-2008, 10:05 AM

UR Landstill is dead!
Long life UR Landstill!

I am playing this deck for a long time and since last week, I am testing a new version and I have to say: It is strong and I enjoy playing the deck.

Here is my current list, without SB. (I think Crypt and Threads are important Slots for the SB)

// Lands
3 [REW] Wasteland
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [UNH] Island
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [UNH] Mountain
4 [R] Volcanic Island
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory

// Creatures
3 [LRW] Jace Beleren

// Spells
3 [FNM] Counterspell
4 [CST] Brainstorm
2 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
4 [OD] Standstill
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [4E] Lightning Bolt
4 [AP] Fire/Ice
3 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [AL] Force of Will

Jace is an amazing Carddraw. I testet FoF and TfK before, but Jace is just better than both. At least you draw one and prevent some damage, but when it can stay some turns in play, it just wins the game alone. Of course it is another winoption... :tongue:

I am just testing the Top/Counterbalance Engine, but with the high number of Fetchies, Top feels rigth if you dont want to play aggressive. I am just not shure about the 8 Burnspells, mainly Fire/Ice. One additional slot for the 4th Explosive would be great.

So any suggesstions to the build (and the SB)? Please accept, that it should stay UR. Otherwise you can propose everything you want.. :smile:

Tacosnape

03-13-2008, 11:38 AM

Are you the guy I played online about a week ago where I Diverted a Lightning Bolt to kill Jace Beleren?:cool: I was the guy playing Counterbalance Doomsday if it was you.

In any case, I like the list to a degree. I do have a few questions, though:

1. How do you keep something 4/4 or bigger from stomping all over your Jace Beleren? Are Ice and Engineered Explosives enough?

2. Would it be worth it to run a single off-color dual to get Engineered Explosives up to a potential three? I know EE for 3 kills Jace Beleren, but this isn't a huge argument given that it kills your Counterbalances at 2. I just thought you might need it at three on occasion.

3. This might be janky, but it's 10:30AM here and my brain sucks before 1PM, but have you ever considered Wand of the Elements? I've always liked the concept of it in UR Landstill, and it seems to gain synergy with Crucible of Worlds recurring your lands and with Academy Ruins being now able to fetch a kill condition should your Factories get Extirpated and your Jaces stopped.

TheMagicWizard

03-13-2008, 11:51 AM

Are you the guy I played online about a week ago where I Diverted a Lightning Bolt to kill Jace Beleren?:cool: I was the guy playing Counterbalance Doomsday if it was you.
Hehe no id dont think so, I only play MWS with the sam name and the same User-Pic. ;)

1. How do you keep something 4/4 or bigger from stomping all over your Jace Beleren? Are Ice and Engineered Explosives enough?
Well thats the main problem of UR-Landstill I think. Explosives is the best way to handel guys with toughness 4 higher. Disk is not fast enough. Maybe Shackles are worth to testing i think. Repeal could also be played in SB.

2. Would it be worth it to run a single off-color dual to get Engineered Explosives up to a potential three? I know EE for 3 kills Jace Beleren, but this isn't a huge argument given that it kills your Counterbalances at 2. I just thought you might need it at three on occasion.
I also thinked about that, but I dont see good tagets in the current meta for the Mini-Splash.

3. This might be janky, but it's 10:30AM here and my brain sucks before 1PM, but have you ever considered Wand of the Elements?
The card sound interessting. I think if you want to play the deck aggressive it is a good option. I see two problems: You need most of your lands mainly if you played the deck like a pure control deck. The other problem is, that there is no synergie with Standstill, because it costs to much. You dont want to play the Standstill turn 5. But interessting card anyway (doesn't noticed before), i will test it.

Adan

03-13-2008, 12:34 PM

Ah, TheMagicWizards, you here, too? Seems that you are still sticking on UR Landstill.

But I'm afraid that UR Landstill is indeed dead. Ok, maybe it's not, but it's harder to play than in the past thanks to Tarmogoyf and the high times of Threshold.

At these times, UR Landstill won't forgive you misplays and it requires a lot of calculation and knowledge of which role you have to play against several matchups. Timing is also a huge factor.

Speaking of which, why are you playing Jace over Thirst for Knowledge? Jace kinds sucks because he gives the opponent cardadvantage and you need at least 1 additional turn to generate CA since he is a Sorcery-speed cantrip.

I played Thirst fo Knowledge for it's obvious reasons: It turns your drawn cards into better, useful cards, generating Cardquality at instant-speed (see the parallels to Brainstorm?).

There's actually never the right timing to play Jace. I would also still recomend you to play Disrupting Shoals over counterspells since it's a easy concept: You take the disadvantage like a man and in exchange, you will gain speed. The disadvantage is then compensated by Standstill and Counterbalance afterwards.

I'm also missing Faerie Conclaves and Repeals or at least Stifle. Faerie Conclaves are necessary IMO because you need to be aggressive in some matchups which simply can't be archieved with only 4 manlands.

Repeal and Stifle should also be obvious: They are both supposed to generate speedadvantage. At the moment, I would tend to play Stifles again (oldschool 2005, yeah!), because manadenial is good - again. You have enough examples, like UGr CanadianThresh and ayB. Hybridshit.

I agree Nevin's Disk might be slow, but it's nearly the only thing which is offered to UR Landstill (beside EE of course).

I'll look whether I have my old list... There you go:

// Lands
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [10E] Faerie Conclave
1 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [LRW] Island (1)
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
1 [LRW] Mountain (1)
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [R] Volcanic Island
3 [TE] Wasteland
1 [ON] Wooded Foothills

// Spells
2 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
3 [AT] Nevinyrral's Disk
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [BOK] Disrupting Shoal
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [OD] Standstill
3 [SC] Stifle
2 [MR] Thirst for Knowledge
4 [AP] Fire/Ice
4 [AT] Lightning Bolt
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [4E] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [BOK] Threads of Disloyalty
SB: 3 [CS] Counterbalance

I think it would still work nowadays, but I'm not sure. Counterbalance can also be maindecked, but I had the feeling that the deck really lacks a few sweepers. At the source tourney, I played maindeck-Counterbalance, but it just helped against Ridiculous Hat, who was the only opponent of 5 who was NOT playing Stax.

Maybe I'll try to resurrect my former pet-deck. But I don't expect to win anything.

Tacosnape

03-13-2008, 12:40 PM

The card sound interessting. I think if you want to play the deck aggressive it is a good option. I see two problems: You need most of your lands mainly if you played the deck like a pure control deck. The other problem is, that there is no synergie with Standstill, because it costs to much. You dont want to play the Standstill turn 5. But interessting card anyway (doesn't noticed before), i will test it.

Why not?

You run a ton of draw, meaning you're going to draw Standstills midgame. If you've got a Wand down, much like a Crucible, then you're in a very good position to dominate under that Standstill.

Plus, I think you have to play U/R a little more aggressively than other Landstills simply because your removal spell quality is much weaker and you run a lot of tempo cantrips like Ice. Wand might help.

Nightmare

03-13-2008, 12:45 PM

TheMagicWizard

03-13-2008, 01:08 PM

Well it realy works better than you maybe figure i think. The only problem is the lack of good sweepers beside EE's. Of course, thats a meta question! But we must plan with NQG and there we only have EE's or Disk. But I swear myself to play never ever the Disk again. It is worse against Gobbos and other realy aggressive Decks. NQG will regulary play max. 1 Goyf and 1 Mongoose and will keep the rest on hand. I realy see a chance for Threads/Shackles maindeck here. The problem on Shackles is that the deck has to change the manabase.
I also tested some games with MonoU and Powder Keg works good. Maybe this is the second sweeper we search?

Speaking of which, why are you playing Jace over Thirst for Knowledge? Jace kinds sucks because he gives the opponent cardadvantage and you need at least 1 additional turn to generate CA since he is a Sorcery-speed cantrip.
In a aggressive meta (i dont mean NGQ here), I also think TfK is better. TfK forced me many times to hard decisions. The problem is, that for me, it was most times not better than a Brainstorm. Jace mades me more often cardadvantage, realy big cardadvantage...

I'm also missing Faerie Conclaves and Repeals or at least Stifle. Faerie Conclaves are necessary IMO because you need to be aggressive in some matchups which simply can't be archieved with only 4 manlands.I am realy not shure about the conclave. It takes just to much mana, it comes tapped into play. Maybe I will add two of them, but I am realy no fan of it. Is Multavault worth to test?

There's actually never the right timing to play Jace. I would also still recomend you to play Disrupting Shoals over counterspells since it's a easy concept: You take the disadvantage like a man and in exchange, you will gain speed. The disadvantage is then compensated by Standstill and Counterbalance afterwards.Hehe the old discussion: If you want to play aggressive, Shoals are way better than the 2CC counters. I play the deck more defensive. :smile:

Repeal and Stifle should also be obvious: They are both supposed to generate speedadvantage. At the moment, I would tend to play Stifles again (oldschool 2005, yeah!), because manadenial is good - again. You have enough examples, like UGr CanadianThresh and ayB. Hybridshit
Well i made some test games agains NQG with 4 Wastelands and 4 Stifles wanna test a Fish deck) and I wasn't able to screw NQG one time. With its strong "draw" you are no realy able to stop them playing a fetchie most turn's. So repeal sounds better for me than Stifle. But i don't found free slots for it with Balance/Top.

Tacosnape

03-13-2008, 01:42 PM

Hi guys, I'm totally win-more!

Sincerely,

Wand of the Elements

-----------------------------------------
Content:

Wand is good when:
You have a standstill on it - ie: you're winning.
You have a Crucible - ie: You're solidifying your position, by exchanging land drops for dudes. While this is ok at some points, it's a large investment.
You have a significant mana advantage - ie: you're winning.

You probably have a good point here, although due to removal quality U/R is bad at holding a winning situation compared to other Landstills, so it may not be completely win-more, but it does seem to suck if you're already losing.

In my defense, I did add a disclaimer that my brain sucked before 1PM. As it is now nineteen minutes until that time, it sounds less good than it did earlier.

TheMagicWizard

03-13-2008, 01:48 PM

Hi guys, I'm totally win-more!

Sincerely,

Wand of the Elements

-----------------------------------------
Content:

Wand is good when:
You have a standstill on it - ie: you're winning.
You have a Crucible - ie: You're solidifying your position, by exchanging land drops for dudes. While this is ok at some points, it's a large investment.
You have a significant mana advantage - ie: you're winning.
You are totaly rigth, but...

You have a standstill on it - ie: you're winning.
You will not realy often get this situation. When you play Standstill in a good board postion you are also often winning.

You have a Crucible - ie: You're solidifying your position, by exchanging
When you have a Crucible, you are winning most times, with the good lands.

Wand just makes good situations better. It also can cost you many games as a dead card on your hand.

mossivo1986

03-13-2008, 04:43 PM

Yup, this is why i decided not to run it. The idea of it seems cool but its not worth the spot.
On another note, I'm still struggling with the decision of running return to dust or dismantling blow in my wish spot. Return to dust is good for card advantage but most of the time most deck's dont have 2 enchantments/artifacts that are of a big concern, and sometimes that double white in its CC can hurt.

Dismantling blow is the direction to go. Sorry about the ryhme. It's cost efficient so you can get it in the early game as well as not being double white. Alot of times said player will get stuck in the Stax matchup with 3 land and need some sort of an answer. Dismantling blow seems to be the answer. Return to dust would be good if you could cast it, but I hardly ever get to four mana off their initial burst of stax, trinisphere, challice, ect. ect. It takes a while and you need artifact removal asap in order to stabilize.

This is probably as bad as a Threshold match can get. Without Blood Moon I steamroll Threshold. With, eh.

Obviously I'd attempt to get ahead on cards as fast as humanly possible. I'd Stifle fetchlands pretty quick if it meant having an extra turn to get set up before the enchantments from hell arrive.

Blood Moon has to be countered unless a Deed's already on the board, and even then you risk Stifle (I assume MoonThresh runs it?) But Blood Moon won't be lurking atop the library to counter a Deed or a Grip all that often. And as far as I'm aware, the deck only maindecks a pair, meaning that's less I have to stop and less frequency of Counterbalance hitting my Deeds.

Secondly, I try to stop Counterbalance. Assuming I stop the assaults on my manabase, Threshold never wins without a Counterbalance on the board, simply because I run more removal than they run threats and have more substantial draw the longer the game goes.

If this were present in my metagame, there's absolutely no way I wouldn't be running Krosan Grip in board (Bye, COP: Red.) It's even possible that it might be worth looking into Annul if Moonthresh is prevalent, as Annul has random use against a large array of decks, and it nails both Counterbalance and Blood Moon.

Keep in mind I'm not a huge fan of Moonthresh, and I think a large part of its success thus far is due to ridiculous skill level and comfort on the part of the Hatfields. Therefore until Blood Moon becomes as core for Threshold as Counterbalance has, I don't intend to worry about it too much. However, if the metagame refuses to adapt and continues to sink into a mire of Blood Moon Deck-beats Nonbasic deck-beats Basic Deck-beats Blood Moon deck, Moonthresh will probably continue to thrive.

I was thinking the exact thing. don't Thresh lists run 18 land? 4 of those are wasteland, and another x are fetches so the sooner you get to removing those lands the sooner you have to end the game because they get stuck. I always try to attack thresh's mana base asap if I can. With no land thresh scoops, 99% of the field except for ravager, combo, goblins, ect. ect.

klaus

03-14-2008, 10:13 AM

mossivo1986

03-14-2008, 11:51 AM

I've been tuning the baby below over last few weeks.
It's been flowing nicely thusfar. I just wanted to get some crits - so fire away!

BTW:
Hoofprints-Thirst, Thirst-Artifact Count, And S. Top have been performing really smoothly together.

LAND:
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
3 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Plains
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
2 Wasteland

INSTANT:
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thirst for Knowledge

ARTIFACTS:
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Vedalken Shackles
3 Sensei's Divining Top

OTHER:
2 Hoofprints of the Stag
4 Standstill
3 Wrath of God

SB
3 Disenchant
3 Engineered Plague
3 Extirpate
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Counterbalance

This to me looks like a modified u/w Standstill list "Splash Black" for Pate/ Plague in the sb.

Overall it looks very similar to der's build as far as the "mold" of the deck. I think your sb should look as follows:

4 Meddling Mage
3 Engineered Plague
4 Extirpate
2 Hydroblast
2 Red elemental Blast

Counterbalance "IF played at all" should be in the maindeck. Im really not a fan of it thought.

I disagree with the fact or fiction cut for thirst for knowlage. I do understand your trying to fuel your hoofprints more, but when it comes down to it I'd rather be holding Decree of justice in hand over hoofprints anyways. And i'd also rather be having a FOF 90% of the time.

Top is kind of a nice touch, I can see where it flows with thirst and artifact theme. It's kind of cool? Academy ruins offers you an alternate win condition in a milling strategy which is cool.

Where is eternal dragon as an alternate win condition/ Smoother?

Some neat card choices i've seen in 2-3 color builds:

Jace
back to basics
Meloku
Cunning wish with a small wish board. "would allow you to have a game against some of the graveyard dependant decks.
Humility.

BTW Disenchant is not tech at all. Make it ATLEAST dismantling blow. Or you could go all tech style and make a wish board and make that mortify, Teh hottness.

Thats all the info I got, if you have any guru serious questions ask tacosnape, or Der.

Shawn

03-14-2008, 12:43 PM

2 Red elemental Blast...

but when it comes down to it I'd rather be holding Decree of justice in hand over hoofprints anyways.

Where is eternal dragon as an alternate win condition/ Smoother?

Cunning wish with a small wish board. "would allow you to have a game against some of the graveyard dependant decks.
Humility.

BTW Disenchant is not tech at all. Make it ATLEAST dismantling blow...

You mean Blue Elemental Blast, right?

I think Hoofprints is an underrated card. I've been playing with it in a uw build similar to Klaus' and Hoofprints has done well. a turn 2 Hoofprints with Brainstorm+Standstill+Thirst afterwards is very strong, whereas I find my dragons dying to Swords very often. Hoofprints also allows the deck to put pressure much faster, which can be nice. For example, a turn 4 Moat doesn't usually mean game against goblins, since they can search up a Siege-Gang and go nuts. A Hoofprints followed by a Moat shortens the window for them to find one with a Ringleader or Matron. Hoofprints is also strong vs the b/x aggro decks with mana denial and discard, because it can come down on the second turn. I've been testing with Shackles and it is incredible against a lot of decks, especially the b/x aggro archetypes.

However, Dragon is much stronger in a lot of the control matchups, since Hoofprints will get grabbed by a Snare, EE, Deed, Disenchant etc.

I've been throwing around a lot of lists, and I keep going back to Clemen's 3c version with Humility and Cunning Wish, with a slightly different board. Humility is so strong against many decks, even Muc (if it resolves, obv.) and makes these matchups easier. They can still be won without Humility and Cunning Wish, it's more difficult without them.

Combo is basically non-existent in my meta, and I don't run a full set of Magi in the board. 2 Dismantling Blow are in there against random decks like Muc, Scepter, and Counter-top. It's a very solid card, imho. (I still run a Return to Dust to wish for)

UW landstill with Shackles and Hoofprints can be strong, but it may be better as a UW control deck with Back to Basics, and an alternate draw engine. Clemen's 3c version seems stronger in the control matchups, and in the aggro match ups as well. Thoughts?

Berzerked

03-14-2008, 12:48 PM

Overall it looks very similar to der's build as far as the "mold" of the deck.

blah, blah, blah

Some neat card choices i've seen in 2-3 color builds:

back to basics

I think it's hilarious how you try so hard to distinguish "your" deck from Der's even though it's obvious they are the same except for some menial card choices, yet you're comparing this to Der's when it looks nothing (and probably plays nothing) alike...

Also, B2B looks like some genious tech. Especially with our high number of non-basic color producers and Factories. I'll have to try that out...

@Klaus: That list looks pretty tight, but a little light on wincons. Seems like most decks would easily be able to handle you're threats. Also, with Hoofprints being 2cc, I can see having to blow it up with your own EE in a bind, and then not drawing into another threat for a while. Have you noticed this problem at all? I'm currently running 10+ threats and I still wish for more sometimes.
8 non-blue producing lands out of a total of only 23 seems a little sketchy, as well. You're curve is pretty low .and you have Top, but I'm guessing Crucible helps more often than not in the area of manabase stabilization. I feel Crucible is weak, but I also play 25 lands, no Wastes, and 4 colors. Could work here, though. Comments?
I like Counterbalance in the board. I don't like it in the main because it changes the decks playstyle significantly, and personally, it's just not the style I wan't to adopt when playing against an unknown deck. It does crush certain decks, though, so I can see bringing it in when you know what you're up against, and therefore, the correct approach to take when using CounterTop. Does it usually replace Wrath?

mossivo1986

03-14-2008, 04:31 PM

I think it's hilarious how you try so hard to distinguish "your" deck from Der's even though it's obvious they are the same except for some menial card choices, yet you're comparing this to Der's when it looks nothing (and probably plays nothing) alike...

Well, since your wrong and I enjoy it when people who weren't at all involved with that little argument "2weeks ago" try to pop their mouths like they know something. Let me show you Der's list. Now I know there are some similarities, as most of the 3c lists and four color lists have alot of them. But open your mind up and please think before you talk to me like this again.

//// UWb Cunning Landstill

/// Mainboard (60 cards)

// Lands
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
2 Plains
2 Island
1 Tolaria West
1 Academy Ruins
1 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory

// Creatures
1 Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Cunning Wish
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Wrath of God
3 Humility
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Decree of Justice
2 Crucible of Worlds

/// Sideboard (15 cards)
4 Meddling Mage
4 Engineered Plague
4 Extirpate
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Return to Dust

So this is Der's list. This is not the list I run at all.

--------------------->This is the list I run.

// Lands
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [UNH] Plains
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [b] Tundra
2 [b] Underground Sea
2 [b] Tropical Island
1 [b] Scrubland
1 [b] Savannah
1 [UNH] Island
1 [TE] Wasteland
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins

// Creatures
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
4 [IA] Brainstorm
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
4 [IA] Counterspell
2 [TE] Humility
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [FD] Crucible of worlds
4 [OD] Standstill
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
2 [SC] Stifle
1 [Dis] Life from the loam

So the major difference? Well how about I run a 4 color model of landstill and der runs 3.

Ill answer the rest of this when I have time. Until then be wrong live well.

Nihil Credo

03-14-2008, 05:13 PM

Berzerked was, I believe, talking about this (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=213029&postcount=1280) list, which is indeed basically identical to yours. So your snarkiness is misplaced.

mossivo1986

03-14-2008, 11:39 PM

I know the list he might have meant to refer to, but he obviously didn't pay attention to the argument and there were tons of people saying what he said. The fact that they were all wrong is the only part im trying to make valid. I originally play tested wasteland's list and played it, tuned it to my liking and consider it a deck of choice for me and legacy. As far as Taking credit for it, I take credit for the additions and tunes that I have made to it yes. I also take credit for taking the time and energy for building the deck IRL and actually playing it every chance I get. I call it my own yes. I take no credit however for the construction of the deck, just my tuning. So if there are any quarrels with that then go ahead, but my deck is different and the changes I have made play to my style of play, so ill leave it at that.

klaus

03-15-2008, 03:43 PM

@ Berzerked:

I've never felt the threat count to be too low:
2x Shackles
2x Hoofprints
4x Factory
seemed to be just right - fewer wincons make room for more control elements, and since you've practically won whenever you've aquired board control combined with card advantage during the midgame (whether you've got a threat online or not, btw) I tend to not add more threats.
If should ever add abother wincon I'd probably go for Eternal Dragon and add a Scrubland.

Some more stuff I'd like to throw out there regarding choices etc..:

- Counterbalance shines against LftL decks especially ;)
- I've been playing Decree of Justice for a long time - and have never been tremendously happy with it apart from the mirror and times I had Humility online.
Hoofprints is a killer, well you know about its uses... 2 Thirst4K, 4 Standstill, 4 Brainstorm & 3 S.Top (which is awesome with HPotS) make it more than amazing.
- I came to run Thirst4K. over FoF partly because it gets dazed less frequently , you can play it earlier to find that wrath and it discards artifacts that get to be reusable as soon as you'll get a A. Ruins.
- The black splash also makes those 3 MB EE more powerful - I'm still thinking about black mainboard cards (Smother, I. Blood, Diabolic Edict, Shriekmaw and so on) but simply didnt find the room to fit them in.. (thoughts?)

All in all I'm not saying "this is like the best LS variant out there atm" it's just a built that explores new synergeries that I really dig.

@everyone:
Has anyone out there tested variants with a similar approach who's willing to share his insights?

@nightmare:
I know TEC exploits Hoofprints and such, too - I'd really appreciate your thoughts on my deck (s.a.).

Berzerked

03-15-2008, 05:29 PM

@ Berzerked:

I've never felt the threat count to be too low:
2x Shackles
2x Hoofprints
4x Factory
seemed to be just right - fewer wincons make room for more control elements, and since you've practically won whenever you've aquired board control combined with card advantage during the midgame (whether you've got a threat online or not, btw) I tend to not add more threats.
If should ever add abother wincon I'd probably go for Eternal Dragon and add a Scrubland.

I don't consider Shackles a win condition, per say. Sure, it sometimes functions as one, but it takes creature control slots when I choose to include it in my build, as that's what it's mainly used for. Also, Shackles tends to suck against a lot of decks seeing play lately: Thresh and Loam's dudes are usually out of range/untargetable, it's pretty worthless against Tomb/Chalice builds (Faeire is too fast and can easily Needle it, Dragon has huge creatures and Moons, Stax is obvious), it only stalls in the mirror, and it's absolute trash against combo of any flavor. It's slightly better against Goblins and B/x Aggro/Control, but Goblins can always drop more dudes or tutor up Hooligan/Tinkerer, and Deadguy/Eva has Vindicate/Seal.

Also, you're right about board control/card advantage in the mid-game...against most decks. What I'm usually most worried about is combo, however, when you need to stop the initial assault and drop a dude asap. With your clock, combo definitely has a chance or two to rebuild.

Avatarius

03-16-2008, 03:24 PM

Hello yes and a small french come to your site ^^

sorry for my english.

I have on the source for answer a question.

I know that a topic is creat for landstill but my landstill isn't a bleu/black/green but it White/red/bleu.

Here my listing deck.

2 Décree of justice
4 Standstill
3 Sensei's divining top
4 swords to plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 rune snag
4 Counterbalance
4 fire//ice
1 wrath of god
2 Nevyniral disk
1 Pyroclasme
1 Propaganda
2 crucible of worlds

1 plain
1 Island
4 Tundra
3 Volcanic island
4 Wasteland
1 barbarian ring
2 delta polluted
2 flooded strand
2 Faeries conclave
4 mishra's factory

side
1 Propaganda
1 Pyroclasm
2 Warmth
3 Crypte de Tormod
2 Pithing needle
4 Hydroblast
2 stifle

And my question is:

What's the best --> "counterbalance + sensei" ; "brainstorm + counterspell" or "counterbalance + brainstorm"

Knowing that if Brein and counter and the best I withdraw Standstill 1 for 60 cards

Jak

03-16-2008, 03:29 PM

Lol. There is a thread for Landstill decks. Also, this forum is not for new topics. Decks to beat will be moved here from the Established forum by a Mod if it shows results.

Edit- Welcome the The Source!

Bardo

03-16-2008, 03:34 PM

Merged UWr thread here. Don't do that in the future.

Avatarius

03-16-2008, 03:43 PM

Sorry i'm lost with all english links.

Berzerked

03-16-2008, 04:59 PM

I don't really know where to start with your list. it looks pretty bad, and if I were to hit on everything, it would take more time than I currently have. I will tell you this, though:
Sensei's is not a replacement for Brainstorm. Brainstorm is not replaceable. It is way too valuable for everything it does, and it's blue. You can easily run both.
Counterbalance is not a replacement for Counterspell. Nor is Rune Snag. If you can support Counterbalance at all, you can support Counterspell, and that's what needs to be run over those Snags.
I'm not really sure what to say about your removal suite either. Singleton Propaganda/Pyroclasm/Wrath, with 2 Disks being the main sweepers? Sounds bad. And you have pretty much no draw to find this stuff either.
Also, you run 10 colorless lands (obviously why your running Rune Snag), but there's no point in running a crappy manabase for no reason and then having to make the rest of your cards crappy so it all works.

Sorry if I sounded harsh, but I'm not sure what kind of testing you've done if these are the results you've come to.

thefreakaccident

03-16-2008, 05:16 PM

While I like what you are trying to do Avatarius, the Uwr color configuration is generally weak in the meta usually... I have tried to bring back the old powerhouse, but it is difficult... I have been trying out this Uwr build however:

lands//24
4 mishra's factory
4 mutavault
2 faerie conclave
2 island
4 tundra
4 volcanic island
4 flooded strand

spells//36
4 force of will
4 counterspell
2 teferi's response
1 crucible of worlds
1 decree of justice
4 lightning bolt
3 fire/ice
3 swords to plowshares
1 engineered explosives
2 nev. Disk
3 fact or fiction
4 standstill
4 brainstorm

sideboard//
3 REB
2 BEB
4 meddling mage
2 engineered explosives
4 tormod's crypt

The deck can play agro under the standstill very well, and then can punish opponents for breaking the still with a lethal amount of burn... add this to the rediculous amount of control elements, and you have a decent deck (not great, just decent)... the deck does loose some power in the loss of stifle (response over stifle), but without wastelands, stifle is a bit lucklaster, and response is strong in a control meta (no more "swords your mishra").

This version actually also runs a lot more threats than other traditional builds with a whopping 11 kill conditions.

diffy

03-18-2008, 04:37 AM

The Uwr color configuration is generally weak in the meta... I have tried to bring back the old powerhouse, but it is difficult...

I do generally agree with this statement, but as there seems to be some interest in Uwr Landstill as of late, I'm going to try to put my thoughts on (virtual) paper.

Let's disect this part after part:

What's the general aim of the deck
What makes it different in feel/playstyle to other Landstill variants
Possible Changes

First of all I think that this Landstill variant plays much different to the traditional, rather clunky white based Landstills. You don't have as harsh color requirements and have a much faster clock as well as reach to support it. On the first sight I don't really like this approach because I feel that Landstill ought to be a more traditional control deck and so I'm opposed to burn because it can't control (read: kill) everything, especially now that Goyf is on the scene. I have played a little bit of Ur Landstill in the past and so I know a little how this is supposed to feel though and the nice and fresh feel can be worth it and can make the difference in matchups like combo.
Conclusion: Make this more aggressive, sort of aggroControl aka Control with a more aggressive finish.

Possible Changes:
Let's have a look at your manacurve: it stops at 4 (no Eternal Dragon) and the cmc4 slot is not so densely packed as in more traditional Landstill variants. You do have the manaintensive DoJ though and a lot of Manlands with which you like to attack. Therefore you do want to hit a significant amount of Land drops but you aren't reliant on it.
I therefore think that you can cut down on a land: 24 is on the high side of the spectrum already and you can't really make that good use of the additional lands as other Landstill variants (e.g. UWb dropping a Daze-proof Humility with Counterspell backup)
Decree of Justice: I don't really like it in your build. You already have a lot of manlands and therefore don't need additional stuff to work under a Standstill. Also, DoJ is very, very clunky and lategamish which contradicts itself to the general approach of the deck (see above): you just don't want to get into the very lategame because then your removal starts to suck.
I therefore think that DoJ can be cut and replaced with a more aggressive Wincondition that is better early on
Next slot that is questionable to me: Teferi's responce. I recon that it has a lot of synergy with manlands and against Wastelands and such but I think that it's just too cute to work. It is a 2mana reactive card which means that you always have to/want to keep up 2 mana before attacking (you contradict your aggressiveness here) or that you want to/need to pay a lot of mana to save one of your lands that isn't that vital to you (you don't need that many lands and have enough winconditions to allow yourself to loose a manland). I can see how the 'draw 2 cards' comes in handy, but that is an unreliable source of Card Advantage which is not what you want: Landstill and control in general want to be as un-conditional as possible in order to adapt best to the current situation. If you have the choice between stuff that is great in situation A but sucks in situation B or stuff that is mediocre in both situations, I'd always go with the last possibility.
I therefore think that Teferi's Responce is too clunky and can be cut
What to fill the slots with:
We now have 1 (land) +2 (DoJ) +2 (TefResp) = 5 slots vacant. We've cut down on a land, a wincondition and a card draw so that at best we'd want to add in cheap solutions (to not stretch the curve), winconditions and a card draw (to keep the deck fluent).
First of all, I'd up the Swords to Plowshares count: it is just the best removal available and handles a lot of things that would otherwise stop your aggro dead (especially Goyf). I can see how the lifegain contradicts with the burn and the 'burn to your dome'-plan but this is not a valable reason to not play Swords to Plowshares: you're not that aggressive that the lifegain would really give you problems. You are more aggressive than your average Landstill but you still stay a Control deck.
+1 Swords to Plowshares
With 4 StoP in the main, you can then cut down on the Lightning Bolts: 6 cmc1 removals are enough to handle any bady Lackey&Co especially when you still have sweepers like Disk. Also, I'm not too fond of Lightning Bolt lately because it feels as though it kills less and less. It'll still be a nice complement to Swords though.
-2 Lightning Bolt
To complement on the removals, I'd then up the Fire/Ice count. Fire/Ice is just an awesome card that can either kill a problematic guy (Confidant, other utility creatures etc.) or virtually timewalk you into the next turn by tapping down their only attacker (eg against NQG or midrange) - cantriping. I think that Fire/Ice should be one of the prime reasons to play red in Landstill: the cantrip also compensates a little for the loss of Teferi's Responce (card draw slot).
+1 Fire/Ice
Next up I'd suggest a piece of tech that has caught on quite a lot in Germany: Repeal - it just fulfills so many roles creating tempo, being a combat-trick and cantriping. It'll especially be gold in here because it can allow you to let that creature resolve now: you'll tap it a turn (draw a card), swing in. Next turn you'll bounce it (draw a card), swing in and burn for the win. It can also act as a tempo-card allowing you to counter a threat retrospectively. Also, it gets rid of your worst ennemy: Pithing Needle on Nev. Disk.
+2 Repeal
Now we have 3 slots left and we'd best fill these with additional winconditions that have a double-duty as utility. I really like those Jotun Grunts in your sideboard. I've played the same combination (4 Mage, 3 Grunt) when Solidarity was still a factor as it would give me a clock and a hardlock (set Mage to Cunning Wish). Nowadays, I think that you can easily play Jotun Grunt in the main because it stops Goyfs (you can stall them till Grunt has done its deed in the late(r)game - especially since Grunt mostly only needs to live a turn or two at the great maximum till he's bigger than Goyf) and beats for quite a lot. It's especially synergestic with your deck since it acts as additional aggro and because you don't have a lot of sweppers that would not work well together with it. I don't know if 2 or 3 is the right number but I'd strongly recomend starting with 3 which feels better and then cut one if you can't support them for long enough. Also note the synergy with Repeal.
+3 Jotun Grunt

Further development:

The next part that in my opinion needs some work is the manabase.
Your manabase features a whoping 10 manlands and another impressive 8 colorless sources. You are also very streamlined with no Wastelands and no utility lands. The Duals/Fetchies/Basics combination is also okay because you're basically mono Blue with 2 light splashes.
Let's see what we can make out of this.

First of all, we need to cut one land. This would almost certainly be a Mutavault: I just don't think that it is good enough. It has no evasion, it produces colorless and it is not particularly good in the attack/defense as it can't be pumped by additional Mutavaults. I can see it as a complement to Mishra's Factories but 4 really is a little too excessive in my opinion.
-2 Mutavault
Next up, we should up the fetchland count for a better color stability and Grunt feeding. I'd at least add in one fetchie, with the possibility of going up to 7. 5 certainly is too low to support Grunt though.
+1 Polluted Delta
Also, while playing and developing Ur Landstill together with Adan, we've found that 6 manlands is as low as you can go down but as much as you want to have to be aggressive and to keep a stable manabase. More is on the safe side but stretches the manabase. I've never felt the need for more and you should not have that feeling here either because you already have Grunt for more aggro. I therefore think that you can safely go down on the manlands to strenghten the manabase. Mutavault is the best cut in my oppinion because Faerie Concalve's evasion is actually pretty worthy in the damage race.
-1 Mutavault

New manabase:

// Lands (23)
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Mutavault
2 Faerie Conclave
4 Tundra
4 Volcanic Island
2 Island

I'm not sure about the 2 Islands. This needs to be tested and the 2nd Island could either be a Hallowed Fountain or a Steam Vents or another Fetchie.

I can't really say a lot for the sideboard as I haven't tested the list.
Some general insight:
You really want 4 Meddling Mages
2-4 Blue Elemental Blasts would be good against Goblins/Combo/Dragon Stompy
1-3 Red Elemental Blasts would be good for all those mirrors
Propaganda/Pyroclasm for Ichorid/Goblins
Tormod's Crypt/Engineered Explosives for Ichorid/NQG
I don't think that you need Pithing Needle or CoW as you have an edge in the mirror already because of more manlands. Also the mirror isn't that frequent.

Sample Sideboard:

4 Meddling Mage
// For combo and to make other control quite favorable as you now have a lot of control elements and even more of a clock
2 Blue Elemental Blast
// Mostly for the Goblins matchup but it has a lot of applications such as against Dragon Stompy and storm combo (Burning Wish etc)
1 Hydroblast
// see above
1 Red Elemental Blast
// Mostly for the mirror to assure that one can keep being aggressive due to having more cheap counters: one has not to worry about (partially) tapping down
1 Pyroblast
// see above
1 Engineered Explosives
// Not sure about this slot but Explosives still are a great and versatile card and can be brought in for a lot of matchups such as NQG, combo, Enchantress etc
2 Pyroclasm
// Mostly against Goblins, Empty the Warrens and Zombies. Two should be enough alongside the BeBs and Propaganda
3 Propaganda
// If you can protect it, it's pretty much game against Ichorid (which I like) while still being decent against a lot of other stuff, Goblins most notably

Conclusion:

After this brainstorming, this is what I've come up with (based on thefreakaccidents list (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=215886&postcount=1376)):

/// Maindeck (60 cards)

// Lands (23)
3 Flooded Strand (http://magiccards.info/on/en/316.html)
3 Polluted Delta (http://magiccards.info/on/en/321.html)
4 Mishra's Factory (http://magiccards.info/aq/en/67.html)
1 Mutavault (http://magiccards.info/mt/en/148.html)
2 Faerie Conclave (http://magiccards.info/ul/en/139.html)
4 Tundra (http://magiccards.info/be/en/300.html)
4 Volcanic Island (http://magiccards.info/be/en/302.html)
2 Island (http://magiccards.info/apac/en/12.html)

// Creatures (3)
3 Jotun Grunt (http://magiccards.info/cs/en/8.html)

// Permission (8)
4 Counterspell (http://magiccards.info/be/en/55.html)
4 Force of Will (http://magiccards.info/ai/en/42.html)

// Removal (15)
4 Swords to Plowshares (http://magiccards.info/ia/en/278.html)
2 Lightning Bolt (http://magiccards.info/be/en/163.html)
4 Fire/Ice (http://magiccards.info/ap/en/128.html)
3 Nevinyrral's Disk (http://magiccards.info/be/en/268.html)
2 Repeal (http://magiccards.info/gp/en/32.html)

// Card Advantage (11)
4 Brainstorm (http://magiccards.info/mm/en/61.html)
4 Standstill (http://magiccards.info/od/en/102.html)
3 Fact or Fiction (http://magiccards.info/in/en/57.html)

/// Sideboard (15 cards)
4 Meddling Mage (http://magiccards.info/ps/en/116.html)
2 Blue Elemental Blast (http://magiccards.info/be/en/50.html)
1 Hydroblast (http://magiccards.info/ia/en/72.html)
1 Red Elemental Blast (http://magiccards.info/be/en/171.html)
1 Pyroblast (http://magiccards.info/ia/en/213.html)
1 Engineered Explosives (http://magiccards.info/5dn/en/118.html)
2 Pyroclasm (http://magiccards.info/ia/en/214.html)
3 Propaganda (http://magiccards.info/tp/en/80.html)

Maybe people can let me/the Uwr Landstill players know what they think about it.
What bothers me most with this version is the lack of Extirpate which basically makes you give up your bad matchups (stuff with recursion engines like Life from the Loam) to make the traditionally good matchups better but as you have Jotun Grunt, you could even be fine with it - I just love how that Coldsnap uncommon is so multi-purpose.

Ch@os

03-18-2008, 07:46 AM

diffy

03-18-2008, 07:59 AM

Hm... i dont like the Idea to play red for only 2x lightning bolt and some Fire/Ice. Don't get me wrong, red splashen landstill variants can be very good but i always feel that i have to play 3-4 Bolt to prove myself "Yes the red splash i usefull".

It's just that Fire/Ice is way better than Lightning Bolt, at least in my oppinion:
Fire/Ice stalls a turn and draws a card
Fire/Ice kills what Lightning Bolt would kill most of the time
Fire/Ice pitches to Force

Also, I do agree that the red splash is kind of weak but having more outs to Magus of the Moon and tempo cards (Fire/Ice is pretty good in my book) as well as sideboard access to more utility (counters) for the mirror and efficient hate for Goblins can be worth it in some Metagames.

My second problem is that when i play Lightning Bolt i prefer to give my opponent 3 dmg, he functions not really as an removal spell. And in that playstyle to have Sword & Bolt MB is an anti synergie thing that i woulnd't play.

It is somewhat anti-synergestic, that is true but you have to keep in mind that you aren't the aggressor in most matchups.
If you aren't the aggressor, there's no need to play sub-par removal: the lifegain for the opponent is somewhat irrelevant because you'll just get around to killing him eventually - time isn't really an issue here.
If you have to be the agressor, you're playing against combo (no creatures to Sword) or against other control (no creatures to Sword or very little lifegain for the opponent [eg Mishra's Factory]) so that the lifegain is minimal. Sure a Bolt would have been better in these matchups, but in every other matchup Swords to Plowshares will be better.
Also, I think that you really need Swords to Plowshares these days otherwise you'll get crushed by a few Tarmogoyfs acompanied by efficient disruption - Lightning Bolt just doesn't kill every early threat anymore and you can't rely on stalling the threats and then resolving a sweeper (Disk).

mossivo1986

03-18-2008, 02:16 PM

If I was going to play RWU Landstill i'd take out bolt and put in helix frankly. And id put in helix as a 4 of. To me the one more mana it may cost you is more then worth 6 point life swings.

Tacosnape

03-18-2008, 02:28 PM

Jotun Grunt in Landstill is a terrible idea. Why on earth would you run a kill condition that can almost never go the distance on his own?

diffy

03-18-2008, 02:47 PM

Jotun Grunt in Landstill is a terrible idea. Why on earth would you run a kill condition that can almost never go the distance on his own?

He might very possibly be a terrible idea, he was just the best for the slot that I could think of. Sure there're other things like Exalted Angel or Decree of Justice but those are just much slower than Jotun Grunt and can't be used like him in the mid- to early-game. There are also other fast(er) winconditions like Serendib Efreet, Serra Avenger or Lightning Angel but those aren't as multi-purpose as Jotun Grunt: they do only beat while Jotun Grunt still is some sort of disruption.
Also, he doesn't have to go the distance by himself: the Uwr list plays out a lot more aggressive than your average list as you have way more winconditions (manlands) and reach in the form of burn.
Remember: the entire list was just like an exercice/brainstorm to see if a more aggressive Landstill list is feasible and/or viable.

I don't really know as of now. As I have way too much free time, I'm actually going to test that list and come back to people when I've collected some data.

Edit: I've never actually had any problems to sustain Jotun Grunt for about 4+ turns. He's fine for the offensive, he just makes a pretty lousy blocker.

If I was going to play RWU Landstill i'd take out bolt and put in helix frankly. And id put in helix as a 4 of. To me the one more mana it may cost you is more then worth 6 point life swings.

The thing is that Lightning Helix is pretty clunky at two mana. For sure it gives you 3 life but then again that's not even an entire Tarmogoyf swing and negligable in most cases so that I don't really want to pay an additional mana for it.

Edit: On a random note - wouldn't black be the better splash-color for a more aggressive Landstill? You'd get to replace the somewhat anti-synergestic Swords to Plowshares with Ghastly Demises and Smothers and still have something to kill those Dark Confidants. You could then also replace the Jotun Grunts with something like Tombstalker or Shriekmaw.

Mister Agent

03-18-2008, 03:22 PM

He might very possibly be a terrible idea, he was just the best for the slot that I could think of. Sure there're other things like Exalted Angel or Decree of Justice but those are just much slower than Jotun Grunt and can't be used like him in the mid- to early-game. There are also other fast(er) winconditions like Serendib Efreet, Serra Avenger or Lightning Angel but those aren't as multi-purpose as Jotun Grunt: they do only beat while Jotun Grunt still is some sort of disruption.
Also, he doesn't have to go the distance by himself: the Uwr list plays out a lot more aggressive than your average list as you have way more winconditions (manlands) and reach in the form of burn.

I don't really know as of now. As I have way too much free time, I'm actually going to test that list and come back to people when I've collected some data.

The thing is that Lightning Helix is pretty clunky at two mana. For sure it gives you 3 life but then again that's not even an entire Tarmogoyf swing and negligable in most cases so that I don't really want to pay an additional mana for it.

Edit: On a random note - wouldn't black be the better splash-color for a more aggressive Landstill? You'd get to replace the somewhat anti-synergestic Swords to Plowshares with Ghastly Demises and Smothers and still have something to kill those Dark Confidants. You could then also replace the Jotun Grunts with something like Tombstalker or Shriekmaw.

Yeah for awhile now I thought of working on RBU landstill with burning wish. I think disk with other instanteous removal will work fine especially with academy ruins. Or you could even run intuition with shriekmaw, tombstalker, and maybe volrath's stronghold. Yes clemens you got me hooked on intuition as well thanks to you. ;)

thefreakaccident

03-18-2008, 03:27 PM

Mister Agent

03-18-2008, 03:35 PM

Ubr landstill?

lands//24
2 mutavault
4 mishra's factory
4 underground sea
4 volcanic island
4 polluted delta
2 flooded strand
2 faerie conclave
1 swamp
1 island

creatures//4
2 tomb stalker
2 skreakmaw

spells//32
4 force of will
4 counterspell
4 brainstorm
4 standstill
4 lightning bolt
3 fire/ice
3 smother
3 nevynrall's disk
3 fact or fiction

sideboard//
4 extirpate
3 REB
2 BEB
4 pyroclasm
2 pithing needle

This is what I think it would look like, and what I will be testing.

I think since your not playing the versatile pernicious deed I think RBU landstill should go a step further and run a more utility type of build. Like with intuition or something in that nature to make up for the loss of pernicious deeds.

Tosh

03-18-2008, 03:52 PM

mossivo1986

03-18-2008, 03:56 PM

"The thing is that Lightning Helix is pretty clunky at two mana. For sure it gives you 3 life but then again that's not even an entire Tarmogoyf swing and negligable in most cases so that I don't really want to pay an additional mana for it."

But thats been the entire argument on why not to play Red splash landstill in the first place. So given the situation I was giving you the best option outside of a 1 drop spell that at most is a 3 point life swing. For two mana "outside of early challice" you basicly can have the one thing that landstill always wants. 2-1 burn a mishra's, gain 3 life. Bam. The zoo aggro decks survive off of the helix life they gain during games and I believe 19 of their land deals them some kind of damage. Wheres we run fetches and get luxury of everything, so why not take advantage of it. And yes this spell does have a chance still at killing goyf very early. If you were that concerened with goyf/ thresh decks you'd run humility and just say "Fu"

diffy

03-18-2008, 04:03 PM

In UBr, how much does the red actually add? Looking at the list (in the main) you get Bolt and Fire/Ice. Unless you get a Burning Wish thing going (which is very powerful) I don't think red adds enough to warrant inclusion.

IMO there's much better things in other colors (G: Deed, W: Swords) or doing 2 color and cutting the third entirely.

You have to keep in mind that the last few posts are about creating a more aggressive Landstill (sort of like the Ur Landstill of the old days) where red does add quite a lot: flexible removal that can double as lategame reach.

If you're looking for a more traditional, controlish Landstill build, red obviously isn't that good a choice because it has some problems with handling bigger guys which makes it quite mediocre for removal while not being that hawt for finishers either. Burning Wish is a strong tool, but I've never felt that it fetches anything more than Cunning Wish which is agreedly more expensive but therefore more flexible (Instant - just like the things it searches) and pitches to Force (Cunning Wish for Enlightened Tutor or Extirpate is the wincondition people are looking for).

But thats been the entire argument on why not to play Red splash landstill in the first place. So given the situation I was giving you the best option outside of a 1 drop spell that at most is a 3 point life swing. For two mana "outside of early challice" you basicly can have the one thing that landstill always wants.

I was just comparing Helix to Lightning Bolt: the lifegain just isn't worth the additional mana.

And yes this spell does have a chance still at killing goyf very early. If you were that concerened with goyf/ thresh decks you'd run humility and just say "Fu"

Humility has no real synergy with the additional beaters - and with your aggressive strategy: Humility is a pure control card and awesome at its job but it doesn't really fit into the more tempo-orientated builds I was talking about lateley as it's pretty expensive and colorintensive. I once played a UWr build with Humility, X-Pyroclasms (Rolling Earthquake and such) and Decree of Justice algonside burn. It was horrible because the parts just don't synergise well: Humility and Decree of Justice want for a long game - burn does not as it gets weaker at controling stuff the longer the game goes as more and tougher threats come onto the screen.

Tosh

03-18-2008, 04:41 PM

more aggressive Landstill (sort of like the Ur Landstill of the old days)

Alright, I see where you're going. I don't think I've seen Chain Lightning suggested (looked ~2 pgs back) but it's pretty good and it allow you to occasionally straight up burn people out. Maverick676 has a pretty good UR Landstill list that I will try and get him to post. It is strongly based on the old Ur Landstill that you're talking about.

Adan

03-18-2008, 05:24 PM

Alright, I see where you're going. I don't think I've seen Chain Lightning suggested (looked ~2 pgs back) but it's pretty good and it allow you to occasionally straight up burn people out. Maverick676 has a pretty good UR Landstill list that I will try and get him to post. It is strongly based on the old Ur Landstill that you're talking about.

A good UR list? With Chain Lightning?! Good joke.

Here's my list:

// Lands
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [10E] Faerie Conclave
1 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [LRW] Island (1)
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
1 [LRW] Mountain (1)
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [R] Volcanic Island
2 [TE] Wasteland
1 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [FUT] Tolaria West

// Spells
2 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
3 [AT] Nevinyrral's Disk
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [BOK] Disrupting Shoal
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [OD] Standstill
2 [MR] Thirst for Knowledge
4 [AP] Fire/Ice
4 [AT] Lightning Bolt
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [GP] Repeal

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 4 [4E] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [BOK] Threads of Disloyalty
SB: 3 [CS] Counterbalance

Tempo-oriented. That's why Disrupting Shoal is fit in, but you might exchange them with Counterspells. Repeal proved to be good. It generates a huge speedadvantage and indirectly is a solution against...everything? Even Tarmogoyf isn't such a thread if you pack in EE.
But it really requires some practice, just like UWb Landstill. It also won't forgive you misplays and requires you to think twice how you use your resources. The Counterbalance-engine comes in against Threshold or other decks with a low manacurve.

Thirst for Knowledge has also a versatile use: It either acts as CA or CQ generator. It turns dead Disks/SDTs into CA and sometimes it simply generates CQ by turning useless lands which you can recurr with Crucible anyways into useful cards. So it can also act as a kind of Brainstorm, that's why i really like it. But this also means that you have to play it well, just like brainstorm. Brainstorm and Thirst for Knowledge both are incedily powerful cards if you know how to play them correctly.

But I just wanted to show you my list and see whether Maverick676's list can beat it.

MAYBE it can be good again since it can beat Aggrocontrol (***** for example) quite easily and has got the best Goblin matchup of all Landstill variants IMO (maybe DiF's Landstill is also strong due to Humility and Plague -> t3h n4sty c0mb0 against Gobs).

b4r0n

03-19-2008, 12:05 PM

This may seem like a janky idea, but has anyone tried Pulse of the Forge in the more aggressive U/R versions? A couple months ago I played against a Landstill deck that ran Pulse, and it worked surprisingly well; since Landstill tends to stabilize at a relatively low life total, Pulse served as a great finisher. I got burned out twice for about 12-16 life.

Nihil Credo

03-19-2008, 12:48 PM

Adan

03-19-2008, 01:15 PM

Burn that cannot target creatures is probably too unreliable to see maindeck play. Maybe it could be used as a Cunning Wish target, although at that point I guess Volcanic Geyser or Urza's Rage would probably work better.

Pulse of the Forge requires double-red. It's everything else, but not a aggressive card. Chain Lightning also isn't because of Sorcery-speed which makes him clunky.

The question is, how you want to use Cunning Wish in UR Landstill (it doesn't seem to be a bad idea, we could run it in the Thirst for Knowledge-slot!), but I yet don't have an idea what you want to run in a wishboard.

Urza's Rage and Sudden Shock seem to be fine, as well as the access to BEBs preboard. Starstorm also seems to be cool. Smash is also possible. Boil and Flashfires could also be cool (Boil being situational!). But we lack Enchantment and Graveyard removal...

kimberley (long time ago, loooong time ago!) once testes Burnind Wishes for Pyroclasm, Cave-In and Rolling Earthquake, but I don't like Sorceries since we already run Faerie Conclaves, Tops and often mainphase Brainstorms.

And well, with Urza's Rage, Nihil is hereby unearthing the most nostalgic tech imo.

The question is whether this kind of landstill variant is controlish enough to stall around like DiF's CunningLandstill to abuse masses of mana for an EOT Wish for the "I win"-card. it wasn't a problem in Vintage where you could run 4 Mana Drains and Sol Ring and such, but in Legacy... Who knows?

@ the UWR Landstill debate: I already said it in the past and I won#ät change my opinion about that, but UWR Landstill is the worst color-combination you can make ever. Swords to Plowshares makes burn totally redundant. And red offers you like...nothing else than burn. That is a contradictory concept that can never work well, since you also have a worse manabase.

b4r0n

03-19-2008, 01:34 PM

Pulse of the Forge requires double-red.

I don't think that's too much of a problem by the time you plan on casting it. But it's true that the double red does limit it to a certain extent. However, on the other hand, it's pretty ridiculous under a Blood Moon, giving you alternate with that doesn't rely on manlands.

Burn that cannot target creatures is probably too unreliable to see maindeck play. Maybe it could be used as a Cunning Wish target, although at that point I guess Volcanic Geyser or Urza's Rage would probably work better.

I was looking at Pulse as more of a finisher than as removal. But I suppose you're right. Just thought I'd mention it as a possible card to consider if you're playing U/R.

Tacosnape

03-19-2008, 02:10 PM

...

Are we seriously discussing Pulse of the Forge?

Burn in Landstill is removal first and kill second. Pulse is an awful idea to maindeck just for the Blood Moon argument, and if you can cast a Cunning Wish under a Blood Moon for it, just get a Blue Elemental Blast and kill the Blood Moon. Or Repeal it, if you're running it, as some R-builds do. Or Disk it. Or Seal of Cleansing the bitch.

What's more, Pulse kill under Blood Moon is hard to make work unless you manaburn yourself to ensure you get your Pulse back. If someone moonlocks you and they see or suspect Pulse, they can just be smart and amass a couple threats (Every deck packing Blood Moon in this format runs threats that hit for more than Pulse hits, by the way) and take you from the teens to 0 in one swing. And if you burn your way down to try a multiple Pulse shot, you're still running risks of being killed before you can pull it off.

I've never figured out what it is about the color red that makes people want to play subpar janky cards. Pulse of the Forge is a ridiculously bad idea. Next option.

Adan

03-19-2008, 02:11 PM

I don't think that's too much of a problem by the time you plan on casting it.

With 5 red manasources total, it is.

edit: OMG, I just wrote 7 words and Taco was still faster with a detailed argumentation. Is he human?

But running Red doesn't mean you have janky cards, it just means that you have the best Landstill variant against Goblins and a better matchup against Solidarity. Yes, this means that UR may be out-dated nowadays, but it can still be competitive since it's the more aggressive controldeck vs. control-mirrors. I would also say that UR Landstill won't lose against MUC than other Landstill variants where Back to Basics are like GG. Repeal is just t3h r0XX0rz.

But I think MUC is a relaxed matchup. Everything MUC does except Morphling and Back to Basics doesn't matter.

Over all, thank you for being the truth and sparing me a lot of writing work, Taco.

raharu

03-19-2008, 03:07 PM

If you want an agressive control deck, why are you playing red (Lightning Bolt) instead of green ('Goyf)? So, the logical conclusion is to drop red for green. Then you want more agressive cards, so you cut down the landcount for threats, and you get thresh, moar oar less :]

On a serious note (i.e. ^^SARCASM^^), I think the optimal agressive Landstill deck would look like this (DISCLAIMER: 5 minute list follows):

lands: 24
4 Factory
2 Conclave
18 other

Sweepers: 4
Wrath of God x4

Win contidions: 6 (12)
(Facroty + conclave x6)
Tarmogoyf x4
Hoofprints of the Stag x2

Countermagic: 7
Counterbalance/ Counterspell x3
Force of Will x4

Hand Crafting: 13
Sensei's Divining Top x3
Brainstorm x4
Standstill x4
Thirst for Knowledge x2

Removal: 4
Swords to Plowshares x4

Other: 2
Crucible of Worlds x2

12 win-conditions, most of which are agressive (Tarmogoyf, Conclave) or tuned by the rest of the deck to be agressive (Hoofprints + TfK, Standstill, Brainstorm, SDT), but it still has sweep, countermagic, draw, and all the thngs that give the deck the ability to maintain in the long game after other decks are exausted.

Thoughts?

Bardo

03-19-2008, 03:55 PM

To add to the body of knowledge in this thread, the rest of my article on Landstill ran on StarCityGames today.

Part 1 (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/15100.html)
Part 2 (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/15607.html)

Here's my current U/b/g list. Card choice and design ideas detailed in Part 2 of the article series.

“Mostly Monoblue Control” ("MMUC")
“The Vorosh Deck”
“U/g/b Landstill”
by Bardo

Card Drawing
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Sensei’s Divining Top

Stack Control
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance
2 Spell Snare

Board Control
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Vedalken Shackles

Big Green Monsters
4 Tarmogoyf

Land
4 Mishra’s Factory
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
3 Island
1 Swamp
1 Breeding Pool
1 Academy Ruins

Sideboard
4 Engineered Plague
3 Hydroblast
3 Dark Confidant
3 Extirpate
2 Krosan Grip

Adan

03-19-2008, 04:58 PM

I think the optimal agressive Landstill deck would look like this (DISCLAIMER: 5 minute list follows):

...

Wrath of God x4

...

Tarmogoyf x4
Hoofprints of the Stag x2

...

Counterbalance x3

...

Sensei's Divining Top x3

...

Swords to Plowshares x4

Thoughts?

Go... home...

This isn't even close to aggressive. Tarmogoyf sucks in the maindeck, i still don't understand why everyone is playing him. Humility > Tarmogoyf, always always always! The same is true for Bardo's list. if you really want to play some spoilers, then PLEASE play Tombstalkers as he at least got EVASION and NEVER get's blown up by your own Pernicious Deed. Tombstalker is also the most potential finisher of all creature-cards as he is as flexible as Goyf and can be fueled by cards like Fact or Fiction and Life from the Loam.

In comparison to Tobstalker, tarmogoyf is IMO a shabby fragile vanilla beater.

But, to quote Clemens: "Humility > d4t sh1t!"

Hoofprints is also a good card, yes, but it's still slow as hell.

And Counterbalance is also a reactive engine, far from being aggressive, that's why I just run it in the Sideboard to lock down Thresh and having a substitute for Meddling Mages against combo and Loam-supporting decks.

Swords to Plowshares also gives the opponent some HP, thus it's also not aggressive.

UR is - in my opinion - the only variant that can switch it's role into an aggrocontrol-deck, with early manland beat without neglecting the counterbackup (Force and D.Shoal as freespells) and less dead cards (removal can be abused as killcondition).
The disadvantage of Forces and Shoal is compensated by Standstills and SB Counterbalance, as well as by appropriate plays.

Shoal is comparable to Chrome Mox in Baseruption and/or ayB.'s NQS: We take disadvantage to gain speed so we can act more aggressively and compensate the disadvantage later with Counterbalance/Survival/Dark Confidant (take Standstills, Thirst for Knowledge and SB Counterbalance as equivalents to those).

raharu

03-19-2008, 05:24 PM

Tacosnape

03-19-2008, 05:40 PM

Can someone tell me why we're trying to make LandStill agressivein the first place, please?

Because most people don't have the mindset to play control-centered long games. They require you be able to formulate a complete plan in your mind, card by card, matching yours against theirs.

And on top of this, Landstill has high risks of draws due to time.

Adan

03-19-2008, 06:04 PM

Can someone tell me why we're trying to make LandStill agressivein the first place, please?

It's not an agressive deck. If you want something like what you're trying to make here, start with threshold and work towards landstill. The list I wrote has the potential to win quickly, i.e. close the game in a timely manner, but landstill, in any configuration, isn't fast.

You are questioning my 3 years of experience of UR Landstill, I think I know how fast UR Landstill can win. My record was against The Rock. 1-1 after 43 Minutes, 7 Minutes remaining for g3. I won that game in extraturn 4 by beating him with Conclave constantly and then burning him out.

If I can't convince you that UR Landstill is quite the fastest variant, at least stop posting pseudo-aggressive lists that play slow wincons like Hoofprints.

Holy crap, for some reason I can't stop giggling. The thought of (one of) the Source's most refined poster(s) saying (/typing) that amuses me greatly.

Clemens and me, we both are kiddos who are not always as eloquent as we are here on TheSource. But frankly, Clemens is indeed more eloquent than me. That's because I have a more sensitive blood pressure and a retard-allergy.

raharu

03-19-2008, 06:16 PM

You are questioning my 3 years of experience of UR Landstill, I think I know how fast UR Landstill can win. My record was against The Rock. 1-1 after 43 Minutes, 7 Minutes remaining for g3. I won that game in extraturn 4 by beating him with Conclave constantly and then burning him out.

That's rather quick. Maybe adding white is a bad idea. Perhaps black for Tombstalker MD and some sort of Man-plan in the SB, somethat like UB Duck Hunt?

Clemens and me, we both are kiddos who are not always as eloquent as we are here on TheSource. But frankly, Clemens is indeed more eloquent than me. That's because I have a more sensitive blood pressure and a retard-allergy.

Oh crap, I can't breathe!!!!! rofl (literally).

Berzerked

03-20-2008, 01:18 AM

Humility > Tarmogoyf, always always always!

That's a ridiculous statement. When was the last time Humility won you a game against Belcher, TES, or any combo, for that matter?
It might be better in certain match ups but Goyf is not dead in ANY match up. It is the best card against the widest array of decks that you can run. Do you understand that concept? It might not be the best in certain situations that you can cherry pick all day, but it is guaranteed never to be a dead card. At the very worst it soaks up counter/removal (like Humility), or stalls the game against aggro (like Humility). At best it kills the opponent, unlike Humility. Goyf is also less stressful on the manabase and can be dropped earlier. It is the most versatile of the two, and I don't know about you, but I pride my list on being able to handle any situation thrown at it.

Adan

03-20-2008, 03:57 AM

That's a ridiculous statement. When was the last time Humility won you a game against Belcher, TES, or any combo, for that matter?
It might be better in certain match ups but Goyf is not dead in ANY match up. It is the best card against the widest array of decks that you can run. Do you understand that concept? It might not be the best in certain situations that you can cherry pick all day, but it is guaranteed never to be a dead card. At the very worst it soaks up counter/removal (like Humility), or stalls the game against aggro (like Humility). At best it kills the opponent, unlike Humility. Goyf is also less stressful on the manabase and can be dropped earlier. It is the most versatile of the two, and I don't know about you, but I pride my list on being able to handle any situation thrown at it.

You consider my statement as ridiculous by using a ridiculous argumentation by yourself, w00t?!

Since when do you really need Tarmogoyf to win against combo? We have like 4 Counterspells, 4 Force of Wills, 3 Cunning Wishes for...Extirpate, Explosives against Empty the Warrens as well as SB Engineered Plague against the tokens and we have SB Meddling Mages who are mightier than Goyfs against Combo.

And well, Humility stalls aggrodecks better than Goyf as it prevents Goblin from overextending and then running you over. It also has got a better synergy with Mishra's Factory and makes Decree of Justice a extremely dangerous card. And Humility together with Engineered Plague is quite a hardlock against Goblins.

Landstill's strength was always that it doesn't run creatures so the opponent has got more dead cards (like spotremoval and sweepers). Tarmogoyf is contradictory to that concept, do you understand that?

By the way, where's your list? I haven't found one in the last 10 pages, but i guess it's a 4color list with the typical manabase that scoops to Back to Basics and Blood Moon...

mossivo1986

03-20-2008, 07:17 AM

diffy

03-20-2008, 07:19 AM

Can someone tell me why we're trying to make LandStill agressive in the first place, please?

40% for nostalgic reasons (like Ur Landstill revival).
40% as an exercise to keep innovation or at least ideas flowing.
10% because of too much free time.
10% because it is quite a nice approach (allegory: Ur Landstill was quite good back in the days).

To make one thing clear: this is not about finding the Holy Grail of Landstill (tm)

Back to the topic:

I think that the black splash into Ur Landstill has the best potential. It does not only offer an evasive finisher in Tombstalker but also flexible removal to take care of that which Burn can't handle - and that removal even doubles as a nice, evasive, finisher (Shriekmaw).

This is how a first rough draft could look like:

/// Maindeck (60 cards)

// Lands (23)
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Faerie Conclave
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
4 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Swamp

// Creatures (6)
3 Tombstalker
3 Shriekmaw

// Removal (13)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire/Ice
3 Repeal
2 Nevinyrral's Disk

// Card Draw (10)
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
2 Fact or Fiction

// Permission (8)
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell

/// Sideboard (15 cards)
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Extirpate
2 Hydroblast
2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
3 Threads of Disloyalty

Alternative Version:

-3 Shriekmaw
-2 Fact or Fiction
+2 Thirst for Knowledge
+3 Engineered Explosives

That's a ridiculous statement. When was the last time Humility won you a game against Belcher, TES, or any combo, for that matter?

This statement is somewhat shaky too... when was the last time Tarmogoyf actually raced your combo opponent? Let's admit that you cast it on turn2 and that he is a 4/5 from the onwards. Even in this optimal case your opponent still has 5 turns from turn2 onwards to kill you or to find some solution to Tarmogoyf. For sure that's a clock but it is still hell of a weak one considering how any combo deck should have won by turn5 at the latest.
At least Humility wins the games when it comes down - anything that needs creatures to attack just scoops to Humility in nine cases out of ten: they just can't win with their limited amount of 1/1s or they have to overextend into your Wrath of Gods. At the worst, Humility gives you time to find a Cunning Wish (which then seals the deal by fetching a Pulse of the Fields) or a Decree of Justice (which then kills most to all attackers, leaves some blockers behind and draws you a card).

At best it kills the opponent, unlike Humility.

Humility can also be considered a wincondition - even if it doesn't reduce your opponent's total to zero.
Play it. Win. That simple. I don't think I've ever lost a game once Humility resolved. This can't be said of Goyf.

Goyf is also less stressful on the manabase and can be dropped earlier. It is the most versatile of the two, and I don't know about you, but I pride my list on being able to handle any situation thrown at it.

Goyf requires you to play Green - a color that offers nothing but Tarmogoyf and maybe Nantuko Monastery. For sure you also need Green to play Pernicious Deed, but that is an entirely different story because then you're 4c (read: even more vulnerable to Wastelands/Blood Moon/Back to Basics etc.) or couldn't even play Humility.
Also, I still think that Wrath of God is widely superior to Pernicious Deed if you have another way to handle non-creature-Permanents (i.e. Cunning Wish) because it isn't a Timewalk for your opponent, isn't disrupted by Wasteland&Co. so easily and can't be Needled/Stifled.

Holy crap, for some reason I can't stop giggling. The thought of (one of) the Source's most refined poster(s) saying (/typing) that amuses me greatly.

Instant Messaging != Forums.
Also, a touch of 1337 (http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/text/leet) gives your statements somewhat an intonation - just like if you where talking to the other guy in person. I agree that it is ridiculous most of the time in written form or if used excessively though.

mossivo1986

03-20-2008, 07:20 AM

Adan

03-20-2008, 07:45 AM

That last comment was a little rough. B2b and blood moon decks typicly are just "the in thing decks" as ive seen. be4 wafo, and post wafo I like to call these decks.

Rough but true, so what?

Yes, such decks are dependant on their hype, but if everyone is spreading their paranoia about those decks in the Thresh-thread where they also begin to maindeck BEBs (LAWL on that btw.) against Blood Moons, why can't it be true for Landstill as well?
4color Landstill has in fact got the disadvantage of aving a shaky manabase that folds to Moon and B2B. That's why I don't like it. It's also slow as hell.

And who's Wafo?

landstill101

03-20-2008, 08:06 AM

You consider my statement as ridiculous by using a ridiculous argumentation by yourself, w00t?!

Since when do you really need Tarmogoyf to win against combo? We have like 4 Counterspells, 4 Force of Wills, 3 Cunning Wishes for...Extirpate, Explosives against Empty the Warrens as well as SB Engineered Plague against the tokens and we have SB Meddling Mages who are mightier than Goyfs against Combo.

there is one reason why this statement is shit in every way possible, COUNTERSPELLS DON'T STOP STORM
yes if you play your cards right you can stop them with counterspells but they have tons of ways to stop that and the only combo deck that doesnt have something to stop that is SI and they are soo fast they they will just go off 2 turns later and then 2 turns later after that. Tarmogoyf puts a clock on the combo player and forces them to only have 1 chance to go off and if doesnt work they scoop becuase goyf will kill them. Without goyf and sticking with your sopposed no creature build(which is impossible to win with) then they will just wait 10 more turns for a good hand and go off again.

And well, Humility stalls aggrodecks better than Goyf as it prevents Goblin from overextending and then running you over. It also has got a better synergy with Mishra's Factory and makes Decree of Justice a extremely dangerous card. And Humility together with Engineered Plague is quite a hardlock against Goblins.
yay great you can stall them at TURN 4 goblins will kill you by turn 4 easily and the latest of turn 6 against any deck (like yours) that doesnt produce blockers. oh yay you get a swords to plowshares to stop them 1 turn, dam you put down a humility, great they just drop down 10 goblins and win anywaze, those lowly tokens and factories get their ass kicked by incinerater, lightning bolt, and tarfire. And if you bring in engineered plague they have krosan grip so you can't make that a viable option. And if you think that you can pull both out without one of them being blown up then you obviously havn't played magic enough.

Landstill's strength was always that it doesn't run creatures so the opponent has got more dead cards (like spotremoval and sweepers). Tarmogoyf is contradictory to that concept, do you understand that?
I would like you to give me 1 list ever to win a tournament that doesnt have a creature, just 1. give me one way that mishra's factory has untargettable???????????????????? Tarmogoyf is now being brought into landstill because landstill sucks at early game, they have always been that way and always will. tarmogoyf helps with that by 200 fold and its a late game win.

By the way, where's your list? I haven't found one in the last 10 pages, but i guess it's a 4color list with the typical manabase that scoops to Back to Basics and Blood Moon...

what list other than the 2 color list dont scoop to those cards(even those lists scoop first game to those because that stops their kill mechs). Every manabase that has been put up to try and add basics to the 4c builds just suck in every single way possible so don't come on here and boast and give shit about the 4c builds. 4c builds are the only builds the pros are using and are doing this for a dam good reason.( and most of them run goyf too but obviously you can't read)

Anybody who wants to argue about tarmogoyf in landstill just needs to be stopped now. There are arguements about it either way and many lists with it and without have done well. All of you people who don't like tarmogoyf(cept taco) only hate goyf becuase your to ignorant to give tarmogoyf a try, your list just stick with the old ways of landstill(which got landstill dropped from all existance for about 8 months because it sucked). And most of the people arguing that goyf is the best thing(like me)are very hot headed and don't like to lose. Theres nothing wrong at not wanting to run goyf, but don't boast that is sucks when you havn't tried it.
Go With The Pros goyfs in for good.

Adan

03-20-2008, 08:17 AM

there is one reason why this statement is shit in every way possible, COUNTERSPELLS DON'T STOP STORM
yes if you play your cards right you can stop them with counterspells but they have tons of ways to stop that and the only combo deck that doesnt have something to stop that is SI and they are soo fast they they will just go off 2 turns later and then 2 turns later after that. Tarmogoyf puts a clock on the combo player and forces them to only have 1 chance to go off and if doesnt work they scoop becuase goyf will kill them. Without goyf and sticking with your sopposed no creature build(which is impossible to win with) then they will just wait 10 more turns for a good hand and go off again.

Did I ever said you should counter Tendrils? I did not, you should rather counter Burning Wishes, Infernal Tutors, Belchers, Draw4s, Chant's, Dark Confidant or whatsoever. EtW tokens are handled by Engineered Explosives and in the lategame by Wrath of God.

And TONS OF WAYS, yeah, like...4 Orim's Chant or 4 Duress?

yay great you can stall them at TURN 4 goblins will kill you by turn 4 easily and the latest of turn 6 against any deck (like yours) that doesnt produce blockers. oh yay you get a swords to plowshares to stop them 1 turn, dam you put down a humility, great they just drop down 10 goblins and win anywaze, those lowly tokens and factories get their ass kicked by incinerater, lightning bolt, and tarfire. And if you bring in engineered plague they have krosan grip so you can't make that a viable option. And if you think that you can pull both out without one of them being blown up then you obviously havn't played magic enough.

They will kill you turn 4 if you let them goldfish, but again you have Counterspells, Swords, Engineered Explosives (very valuable card) to stall until Turn 4 and then you can begin to sweep with Wrath of God or simply win via Humility.

I would like you to give me 1 list ever to win a tournament that doesnt have a creature, just 1. give me one way that mishra's factory has untargettable???????????????????? Tarmogoyf is now being brought into landstill because landstill sucks at early game, they have always been that way and always will. tarmogoyf helps with that by 200 fold and its a late game win.

Well, Clemens aka. "Der imaginäre Freund" won at out monthly Legacy tourney on January with his UWb Cunning Landstill:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=202212&postcount=6

Landstill does not suck in the earlygame thanks to EE, Swords and Standstill (that's the card's pupose!). And even IF you have to take some beat, Pulse of the Fields will bring you back to a acceptable life total.

By the way, his colleague and co-designer Marius Hausman (regged as Wasteland) has won the tournament on January in Munich with a similar list, but with green splash to play Deeds instead of Wrath of God:

http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=744

Proven you wrong - twice! Priceless!

what list other than the 2 color list dont scoop to those cards(even those lists scoop first game to those because that stops their kill mechs). Every manabase that has been put up to try and add basics to the 4c builds just suck in every single way possible so don't come on here and boast and give shit about the 4c builds. 4c builds are the only builds the pros are using and are doing this for a dam good reason.( and most of them run goyf too but obviously you can't read)

It's called "netdecking" because the american forums and succes have indeed a bigger impact on the metagame than foreign metagames, except Legacy Grand Prix's or such. They are all also more affixed on beating Thresh, because Thresh has got the most of T8 appearances of all Legacydecks, thus the Pro's know: "I have to beat that!"

Anybody who wants to argue about tarmogoyf in landstill just needs to be stopped now. There are arguements about it either way and many lists with it and without have done well. All of you people who don't like tarmogoyf(cept taco) only hate goyf becuase your to ignorant to give tarmogoyf a try, your list just stick with the old ways of landstill(which got landstill dropped from all existance for about 8 months because it sucked). And most of the people arguing that goyf is the best thing(like me)are very hot headed and don't like to lose. Theres nothing wrong at not wanting to run goyf, but don't boast that is sucks when you havn't tried it.
Go With The Pros goyfs in for good.

I tested him as a sideboardcard in 4color landstill and I don't like him because of the reasons I have given some posts before. I started playing Legacy with UR Landstill and also have indeed played other variants to gather some experience.

i also find it extremely funny that someone named "landstill101" is flaming at me in this thread, hereby not only questioning my experience but my competence as a magic player in general with statements that are as wrong as they could ever be.

Was that random brainfart-flame worth a warning? By the way, what kind of drugs have you consumed, I want that stuff, too! :tongue:

landstill101

03-20-2008, 08:48 AM

WOW now I got tons of stuff to talk about since there was about 5 posts since I started typing.

To Der... somethin somethin something, (your name is hard to spell)
I'm not gonna say anything bout the UR lists only because I have never tested them.
9 cases out of 10 goyf is enough to kill, if you take it right, average combo kills by turn 2 latest of 4 and earliest of 1. if its done turn 2, if you went first you have a counterspell to stop them(which against a good combo player 1 counterspell isnt enough) or drop a goyf and hope they cant go off, then most combo decks need atleast 5 turns to get a hand to win and those hards are soo vunerable to counterspell that if you counter the first spell it ends their turn which gives you the win. Also his arguement was that tarmogoyf is 100% better against combo which it is and anyone trying to argue that should just jump off a bridge, Also you can't play the whole line about dropping humility and always winning against combo, because that card is dead and if you actually get to turn 4 to play it, you better be doin something else than playing that, that card should be sided out.

Also if your playing humility in the way that you say you never lose a match with it down, then obviously you have already got the game won and have an overkill or everyone in your meta doesnt know what the card called krosan grip is. It is alot easier to keep a person from playing humility than goyf, goyf just needs you to drop a trop to play it, while humility needs to have 2 white, which many decks have wasteland and alot of decks have ways to tap your lands(goblins) and turn them into mountains.

well bout your next post, you can't justify sayin this at all, obviously if your not running green, then you dont run goyf, duhhh, but goyf isn't run in the 2c builds, its run in the 4c builds, this is one of the reasons that I feel that having a single landstill thread is not a good idea, the 2c builds are build completly different than the 4c builds, the 4c builds use all 4 colors to play the best cards in the format, the best creature(tarmogoyf) the best sweeper(deed) the best spot removal(swords) the best counterspell(fow,counterspell,stifle) the best draw(standstill, brainstorm, fact) and the most expensive manabase out of any deck(lol??) it doesnt have a problem playing a deed first game and saying go knowing that the next turn the board is wiped and prob dropin a standstill...... And pls don't start the whole wog and deed discusion again, this was already talked about and anyone who actually plays landstill knows deed is better but you have to play a 4c build to play deed, if your playing the 2c build then duh your gonna play wog. Oh and WOG costs more than deed soo if deed is a timewalk then obviously WOG is a timewalk tooo.

we need to understand that if you talk about humility then you arn't playing 4c(even though only the 4c builds have won any big tourny in the US and all the pros are playing it with goyf) and if you play goyf then you are prob playing 4c BOTH DECKS ARE DIFFERENT yes humility is better in 2c builds but it sucks in 4c builds. goyf isnt worth adding just green to 2c builds but if you running 4c why not run the best creature in the format.

Nihil Credo

03-20-2008, 08:48 AM

Incidentally, with the German UWb list I have stared down a resolved B2B six times, and I won three of those games. I can't remember the same numbers for Blood Moon, but it was usually devastating on turn 1-2 while weak in the mid-late game.

diffy

03-20-2008, 08:52 AM

COUNTERSPELLS DON'T STOP STORM

Err, yeah. Just counter Burning Wish/Grim Tutor/Infernal Tutor/whatever and you'll be fine. Also, Extirpate on their Tutors is extremely valuable, especially against something like TES that relies heavily on their tutors to get their winconditions. I haven't tested against Fetchland Tendrils. The Matchup against them seems a lot worse as they have more 'real' Tendrils and Mystical Tutor for everything they need but they aren't popular anyways.

yes if you play your cards right you can stop them with counterspells but they have tons of ways to stop that and the only combo deck that doesnt have something to stop that is SI and they are soo fast they they will just go off 2 turns later and then 2 turns later after that.

I'm sorry but SI just is a horrible pile. They'll fizzle more often than not and they inflict themselves huge life loss themselves so that your Factories actually become a threat.

Tarmogoyf puts a clock on the combo player and forces them to only have 1 chance to go off and if doesnt work they scoop becuase goyf will kill them. Without goyf and sticking with your sopposed no creature build(which is impossible to win with) then they will just wait 10 more turns for a good hand and go off again.

Hate to quote myself.

When was the last time Tarmogoyf actually raced your combo opponent? Let's admit that you cast it on turn2 and that he is a 4/5 from the onwards. Even in this optimal case your opponent still has 5 turns from turn2 onwards to kill you or to find some solution to Tarmogoyf. For sure that's a clock but it is still hell of a weak one considering how any combo deck should have won by turn5 at the latest.

yay great you can stall them at TURN 4 goblins will kill you by turn 4 easily and the latest of turn 6 against any deck (like yours) that doesnt produce blockers.

From my experience, Goblins is horribly slow and clunky once you handled their acceleration (Lackey and Vial). They have no relevant 2drops (Piledriver just pokes at your life total most of the time) and their 3drops are either a Tutor (Matron) which is pretty slow too or Warchief. Warchief has to be handled because he's another form of acceleration but by turn3-4 you're already on Wrath/Humility mana so I don't see where your problem is.

oh yay you get a swords to plowshares to stop them 1 turn, dam you put down a humility, great they just drop down 10 goblins and win anywaze, those lowly tokens and factories get their ass kicked by incinerater, lightning bolt, and tarfire. And if you bring in engineered plague they have krosan grip so you can't make that a viable option. And if you think that you can pull both out without one of them being blown up then you obviously havn't played magic enough.

Last time I checked, Goblins plays around 21-23 lands, 4-8 non-Land Spells. If your opponent manages to drop 10 Goblins without the help of Matron and Ringleader (remember: 'Comes into Play'-triggers don't trigger under Humility) and you happen to not draw anything (Cunning Wish, DoJ, WoG etc.) then congratulate them to their savage draw skills and/or their savage deckstacking skills and shake their hand: they deserve the win.
I can assure you that this won't happen often.
Also, last time I checked, Goblins does not play Tarfire. Even if they do, I'll gladly trade one of my manas (aka one DoJ tokken) for one of their cards. Fair trade.
Oh, and it's not like Tarmogoyf spells GG against Goblins. They'll just go Warren Weirdings/Swords to Plowshares - swing - next game.

I would like you to give me 1 list ever to win a tournament that doesnt have a creature, just 1. give me one way that mishra's factory has untargettable????????????????????

See my latest result (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=12726) with UWb Landstill.
Also, search for a guy called Marius Hausman. He and I have been developing UWb and 4c Cunning Landstill together for the past months and he's been top8ing like every tournament he's playing in before he stopped playing because he's judging. Here's some link (http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?creator=Marius%20Hausmann) as proof.

Tarmogoyf is now being brought into landstill because landstill sucks at early game, they have always been that way and always will. tarmogoyf helps with that by 200 fold and its a late game win.

That's exactly why you play Standstill: it's not only a Card Advantage engine but also a tempo engine. Just keep the board clear for the first turn (Swords to Plowshares, Force of Will, Engineered Explosives), drop a Standstill and then either create a lot of tempo because your opponent doesn't play something or draw 3 cards which will assure your landdrops till the mid- late-game and assure you have removal.
Sure Tarmogoyf helps, but he's just so fragile and has a big targeting sign all over him because you play so little creatures. Your opponent will be happy for something to aim his removal at. Humility not so much: no-one plays Enchantment removal main so that it is usually GG when you resolve it.

4c builds are the only builds the pros are using and are doing this for a dam good reason.( and most of them run goyf too but obviously you can't read)

Pros, pros, pros, whatever. Pros don't usually play Legacy because there aren't any ProTours or regular Grad Prix to support the format so that they just don't bother with it. Due to this, most pros just aren't that knowledgable of the format. Because of this, you shouldn't take their words/choices for gospel.

your list just stick with the old ways of landstill(which got landstill dropped from all existance for about 8 months because it sucked). And most of the people arguing that goyf is the best thing(like me)are very hot headed and don't like to lose. Theres nothing wrong at not wanting to run goyf, but don't boast that is sucks when you havn't tried it.
Go With The Pros goyfs in for good.

Landstill never stopped to be good. You just needed more skill to do well with it (know your Goblins matchup and such). This is still true nowadays, especially the UWb Cunning Landstill (or any Cunning Landstill - they're German list :wink: ) requires a greater knowledge of the matchups and general playskill but once you've mastered it, there's very little you can not handle.

Edit: Reply to the answer

Also you can't play the whole line about dropping humility and always winning against combo, because that card is dead and if you actually get to turn 4 to play it, you better be doin something else than playing that, that card should be sided out.

With that statemen I was obviously referring to any matchup that needs creatures to win.
Also, generalisations like yours are generally wrong. Drop a Humility against Cephalid Breakfast and see what I mean :wink: .

Also if your playing humility in the way that you say you never lose a match with it down, then obviously you have already got the game won and have an overkill or everyone in your meta doesnt know what the card called krosan grip is. It is alot easier to keep a person from playing humility than goyf, goyf just needs you to drop a trop to play it, while humility needs to have 2 white, which many decks have wasteland and alot of decks have ways to tap your lands(goblins) and turn them into mountains.

For sure Tarmogoyf is easier to resolve than Humility. But your argument about Krosan Grip is flawed: no-one plays Grip in the main and a maximum of 3 in the sideboard. We can agree that they can't win while you have Humility on the board. Now they have to dig for Krosan Grip which will buy you about infinite time to find answers and take further control of the game - you reach the lategame... you win. Humility has just indirectly won you the game too.
Also, Tarmogoyf is like way more vulernable than Humility - you have to agree to this too. So your entire argument about how weak and vulnerable Humility is and how awesome it is when you drop a Goyf is flawed too: Goyf is just even easier to remove than Humility.

And pls don't start the whole wog and deed discusion again, this was already talked about and anyone who actually plays landstill knows deed is better but you have to play a 4c build to play deed, if your playing the 2c build then duh your gonna play wog. Oh and WOG costs more than deed soo if deed is a timewalk then obviously WOG is a timewalk tooo.

Did you ever play against Aggro-Loam? I think you don't because then you wouldn't make such statements. Imagine the matchup against Aggro-Loam from a 4c perspective:
You struggle against their Wastelands. You try to build up your manabase and have to dig for lands. You have to concentrate on getting your colors right. Finally you manage to drop a Deed (imagine on turn5) and you can't pop it now because all their relevant threats (Crusher, Vore) cost3. You get an additional 10-20 damage because of Deed. You couldn't focus on getting rid of their troublessome stuff (Loam, Dev. Dreams) because of your manabase.
From an UWb point of view, you can now fetch your basics, ignore Wasteland to a large degree and just WoG their board on the same turn5 without having to suffer another 10-20 damage.
Also, imagine your game against NQG (like the good Ugw builds). They drop a Needle on Deed - you cringe as you now only have 3 Engineered Explosives they care of because they have Counterbalance for your other removal. Same is true against Tempo Thrash (Canadian Ugr) which will just screw you off green and Stifle your Deed when you get it down. Not so much with Wrath of God and a better manabase.
Last but not least, there are just not a lot of Artifacts/Enchantments around so that most of the time you'll destory creatures. If an Artifact/Enchantment does come around you still have Engineered Explosives and Cunning Wish to take care of that.

we need to understand that if you talk about humility then you arn't playing 4c(even though only the 4c builds have won any big tourny in the US and all the pros are playing it with goyf) and if you play goyf then you are prob playing 4c BOTH DECKS ARE DIFFERENT yes humility is better in 2c builds but it sucks in 4c builds. goyf isnt worth adding just green to 2c builds but if you running 4c why not run the best creature in the format.

Humility belongs in Landstill - at least in the more white centric builds. Marius and I have created quite a successful (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=13073) 4c List that does play Humility

Incidentally, with the German UWb list I have stared down a resolved B2B six times, and I won three of those games. I can't remember the same numbers for Blood Moon, but it was usually devastating on turn 1-2 while weak in the mid-late game.

True - basics are an incredible piece of tech nowadays :tongue: . Playing against Blood Moon has also been made significantly easier since the inclusion of Blue Elemental Blast in the Sideboard: you now only have to fetch a basic Island and you'll be on the safe side if the Blood Moon comes down ridiculously early.

landstill101

03-20-2008, 09:19 AM

Did I ever said you should counter Tendrils? I did not, you should rather counter Burning Wishes, Infernal Tutors, Belchers, Draw4s, Chant's, Dark Confidant or whatsoever. EtW tokens are handled by Engineered Explosives and in the lategame by Wrath of God.

And TONS OF WAYS, yeah, like...4 Orim's Chant or 4 Duress?
sooo lets see I will counter orim's chant YAY I JUST STOPPED COMBO, COMBO CAN'T WIN WITHOUT CHANT OH MAN THEY JUST FOLDED TO A COUNTERSPELL ON CHANT. Cmon use some common sense. If combo lost everytime to a single counterspell, then combo would be non existant and wouldnt even be talked about specially in the meta. Yay great you countered burning wish, dam they go off next turn and win, oh what they used up most of their hand??? dam they go off 5 turns later because you couldnt kill him, dam goyf could have really help there.

They will kill you turn 4 if you let them goldfish, but again you have Counterspells, Swords, Engineered Explosives (very valuable card) to stall until Turn 4 and then you can begin to sweep with Wrath of God or simply win via Humility.

when counterspell stops a lackey let me know, tell me when an engineered explosives stops a first turn lackey in landstill and i'll start a parade in new york.

yay you have swords 1 frickin card, that does nothing against a vial and it doesnt stop the creatures after you swords the lackey, if these cards help you so much then why wasn't landstill the number one deck(before goyf came out) because goblins just restocks 3 times better than landstill. and are you still forgetting you still need double white for humility, wow I guess those wastelands and ports don't stop that.

Well, Clemens aka. "Der imaginäre Freund" won at out monthly Legacy tourney on January with his UWb Cunning Landstill:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=202212&postcount=6
you still dont read do you...... You still have manlands, those still are creatures, they still die to:
swords
smother
diabolic edict
bolt
helix
shreikmaw(if used right)
deed
tarfire
incinerater
needle
wasteland
port
sinkhole
vindicate
ohhhh and it still gets blocked............

Landstill does not suck in the earlygame thanks to EE, Swords and Standstill (that's the card's pupose!). And even IF you have to take some beat, Pulse of the Fields will bring you back to a acceptable life total.

yes you are completely right, EE stops a lackey and piledriver:eek: and it stops a warchief and a vial:tongue: also droping a standstill after a vial or lackey is on board is prob the best play I can think of.
oh and swords stops goblins in its tracks thats why goblins is the worst deck in the format................(now if your taking this seriously adan pls go back to first grade)

By the way, his colleague and co-designer Marius Hausman (regged as Wasteland) has won the tournament on January in Munich with a similar list, but with green splash to play Deeds instead of Wrath of God:

http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=744

Proven you wrong - twice! Priceless!
and this just proves you wrong for the 3 time! Priceless! I did mention in my post that I'm talking about U.S. only but obviously you didn't read that. Many german players have done well with other non 4c lists but their meta is different than ours so their list has to be tweeked different. this is an archtype thats why there is more than 1 list

It's called "netdecking" because the american forums and succes have indeed a bigger impact on the metagame than foreign metagames, except Legacy Grand Prix's or such. They are all also more affixed on beating Thresh, because Thresh has got the most of T8 appearances of all Legacydecks, thus the Pro's know: "I have to beat that!"
sooo when has this website not used the U.S. meta not been that meta used to make claims on cards, if you are using your claim on your meta and its nothing like the normal meta then what the fuck are you doing flaming anoyn on here? your deck won't win in a normal meta becuase obviously by this post you don't play against threshold soo that means YOUR DECK WILL BE DIFFERENT cmon, my deck would be different too if I didn't have threshold in my meta.

I tested him as a sideboardcard in 4color landstill and I don't like him because of the reasons I have given some posts before. I started playing Legacy with UR Landstill and also have indeed played other variants to gather some experience.
As I said you have not tested goyf enough to make a claim, sideboard doesnt count since its not in the first game and that is already not giving it a chance since you don't play it mainboard, you don't know how much it actually helps you and don't side it in.

i also find it extremely funny that someone named "landstill101" is flaming at me in this thread, hereby not only questioning my experience but my competence as a magic player in general with statements that are as wrong as they could ever be.

it wouldnt happen if you could distinquish the difference between 4c builds and 2c builds.

to everyone whos about to reply to this, If your running a 2c build yes you should run humility, I would, it has better synergy with how the deck works. but if your running a 4c build then humility shouldn't even be a consideration, but goyf does help with alot of problems that landstill has. I'm not posting saying humility is bad, I'm only saying that it matters on the deck list, you can't say that one card is always better to play, there are many cases that each one is better than the other.

diffy

03-20-2008, 09:32 AM

when an engineered explosives stops a first turn lackey in landstill and i'll start a parade in new york.

You're on the play. You know you're playing against Goblins. You should always preemptively drop an Engineered Explosives at 1.
Your opponent looks at his Lackey/Vial in hand and goes to frowntown.
Now if I can make it to that parade... :tongue:

yay you have swords 1 frickin card, that does nothing against a vial and it doesnt stop the creatures after you swords the lackey, if these cards help you so much then why wasn't landstill the number one deck(before goyf came out) because goblins just restocks 3 times better than landstill. and are you still forgetting you still need double white for humility, wow I guess those wastelands and ports don't stop that.

Humility stops their restockings.
Goyf just dies to their Warren Weirdings.
Basic Plains and uncracked Fetchlands help against Port and Wasteland which start to be dropped out of many builds anyways.

you still dont read do you...... You still have manlands, those still are creatures, they still die to:
(snip a long list)

Crucible of Worlds helps winning with Mishra's Factories tremendously. Before you start with your 'CoW will get countered/removed etc.' argument: that's what Academy Ruins is for (and you can even tutor it up!).

I did mention in my post that I'm talking about U.S. only but obviously you didn't read that. Many german players have done well with other non 4c lists but their meta is different than ours so their list has to be tweeked different.

Yeah, in Germany people actually play decks that are kind of bad matchups for Landstill (read: anything with a recursion engine [Life from the Loam, Genesis etc.]). Apart from this, our metas still are the most random thing ever (unprediactable since ever regular plays a different deck on every tournament) so that you always have to prepare for every deck possible - which shouldn't be that different in the States.

Wasteland

03-20-2008, 09:37 AM

I suppose, that the results of the Vienna Grand Prix Legacy sideevent will not be posted...

There i made the 5. place from 88 players ( 6:0:1 after 7 rounds swiss, being 1. with 100% winpercantage + draw in round 7 against friend ), cause i lost to aggro loam in the quarterfinals...

yes humility is better in 2c builds but it sucks in 4c builds

I piloted my 4C Landstill, featuring 2 humilities main and bashing 4 other decks playing Tarmogoyfs...

I really dont know how you can say, that tarmogoyf > humility: Look at an average metagame. There you will see some people playing combo like belcher or TES and SOMETIMES a solidarity. In theese matchups, goyf is better then humility, i admit this...
Then you have Goblins, tons of ***** / fish decks. Against theese, humility is a bomb, while goyf will run into an enemy removal or will be simply ignored by the goblin player, who overruns you...
Against other decks like survival / aluren or whatever, you put humility on the table and win the game - In about 80% of all cases you are the control deck, Landstill is supposed to be and you need not to get an early threat - play fish or ***** if you don't want to be the CONTROL deck...

Every manabase that has been put up to try and add basics to the 4c builds just suck in every single way possible - don't talk nonsense...

Further, Goyf has NO synergie with Deed, since you will blow it up almost always for 2 or more, while you can play humility, clear the board with and let alone a ringleader or something like that...
After all, play the deck, and if you want, be the "pro", playing tarmogoyfs, but dont try to tell players, which nearly always make top8, that their decks and ideas are crap...
so long,
Marius Hausmann

landstill101

03-20-2008, 09:46 AM

Err, yeah. Just counter Burning Wish/Grim Tutor/Infernal Tutor/whatever and you'll be fine. Also, Extirpate on their Tutors is extremely valuable, especially against something like TES that relies heavily on their tutors to get their winconditions. I haven't tested against Fetchland Tendrils. The Matchup against them seems a lot worse as they have more 'real' Tendrils and Mystical Tutor for everything they need but they aren't popular anyways.

I'm sorry but SI just is a horrible pile. They'll fizzle more often than not and they inflict themselves huge life loss themselves so that your Factories actually become a threat.

Hate to quote myself.

From my experience, Goblins is horribly slow and clunky once you handled their acceleration (Lackey and Vial). They have no relevant 2drops (Piledriver just pokes at your life total most of the time) and their 3drops are either a Tutor (Matron) which is pretty slow too or Warchief. Warchief has to be handled because he's another form of acceleration but by turn3-4 you're already on Wrath/Humility mana so I don't see where your problem is.

Last time I checked, Goblins plays around 21-23 lands, 4-8 non-Land Spells. If your opponent manages to drop 10 Goblins without the help of Matron and Ringleader (remember: 'Comes into Play'-triggers don't trigger under Humility) and you happen to not draw anything (Cunning Wish, DoJ, WoG etc.) then congratulate them to their savage draw skills and/or their savage deckstacking skills and shake their hand: they deserve the win.
I can assure you that this won't happen often.
Also, last time I checked, Goblins does not play Tarfire. Even if they do, I'll gladly trade one of my manas (aka one DoJ tokken) for one of their cards. Fair trade.
Oh, and it's not like Tarmogoyf spells GG against Goblins. They'll just go Warren Weirdings/Swords to Plowshares - swing - next game.

See my latest result (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=12726) with UWb Landstill.
Also, search for a guy called Marius Hausman. He and I have been developing UWb and 4c Cunning Landstill together for the past months and he's been top8ing like every tournament he's playing in before he stopped playing because he's judging. Here's some link (http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?creator=Marius%20Hausmann) as proof.

That's exactly why you play Standstill: it's not only a Card Advantage engine but also a tempo engine. Just keep the board clear for the first turn (Swords to Plowshares, Force of Will, Engineered Explosives), drop a Standstill and then either create a lot of tempo because your opponent doesn't play something or draw 3 cards which will assure your landdrops till the mid- late-game and assure you have removal.
Sure Tarmogoyf helps, but he's just so fragile and has a big targeting sign all over him because you play so little creatures. Your opponent will be happy for something to aim his removal at. Humility not so much: no-one plays Enchantment removal main so that it is usually GG when you resolve it.

Pros, pros, pros, whatever. Pros don't usually play Legacy because there aren't any ProTours or regular Grad Prix to support the format so that they just don't bother with it. Due to this, most pros just aren't that knowledgable of the format. Because of this, you shouldn't take their words/choices for gospel.

Landstill never stopped to be good. You just needed more skill to do well with it (know your Goblins matchup and such). This is still true nowadays, especially the UWb Cunning Landstill (or any Cunning Landstill - they're German list :wink: ) requires a greater knowledge of the matchups and general playskill but once you've mastered it, there's very little you can not handle.

Edit: Reply to the answer

With that statemen I was obviously referring to any matchup that needs creatures to win.
Also, generalisations like yours are generally wrong. Drop a Humility against Cephalid Breakfast and see what I mean :wink: .

For sure Tarmogoyf is easier to resolve than Humility. But your argument about Krosan Grip is flawed: no-one plays Grip in the main and a maximum of 3 in the sideboard. We can agree that they can't win while you have Humility on the board. Now they have to dig for Krosan Grip which will buy you about infinite time to find answers and take further control of the game - you reach the lategame... you win. Humility has just indirectly won you the game too.
Also, Tarmogoyf is like way more vulernable than Humility - you have to agree to this too. So your entire argument about how weak and vulnerable Humility is and how awesome it is when you drop a Goyf is flawed too: Goyf is just even easier to remove than Humility.

Did you ever play against Aggro-Loam? I think you don't because then you wouldn't make such statements. Imagine the matchup against Aggro-Loam from a 4c perspective:
You struggle against their Wastelands. You try to build up your manabase and have to dig for lands. You have to concentrate on getting your colors right. Finally you manage to drop a Deed (imagine on turn5) and you can't pop it now because all their relevant threats (Crusher, Vore) cost3. You get an additional 10-20 damage because of Deed. You couldn't focus on getting rid of their troublessome stuff (Loam, Dev. Dreams) because of your manabase.
From an UWb point of view, you can now fetch your basics, ignore Wasteland to a large degree and just WoG their board on the same turn5 without having to suffer another 10-20 damage.
Also, imagine your game against NQG (like the good Ugw builds). They drop a Needle on Deed - you cringe as you now only have 3 Engineered Explosives they care of because they have Counterbalance for your other removal. Same is true against Tempo Thrash (Canadian Ugr) which will just screw you off green and Stifle your Deed when you get it down. Not so much with Wrath of God and a better manabase.
Last but not least, there are just not a lot of Artifacts/Enchantments around so that most of the time you'll destory creatures. If an Artifact/Enchantment does come around you still have Engineered Explosives and Cunning Wish to take care of that.

Humility belongs in Landstill - at least in the more white centric builds. Marius and I have created quite a successful (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=13073) 4c List that does play Humility

True - basics are an incredible piece of tech nowadays :tongue: . Playing against Blood Moon has also been made significantly easier since the inclusion of Blue Elemental Blast in the Sideboard: you now only have to fetch a basic Island and you'll be on the safe side if the Blood Moon comes down ridiculously early.

der its hard to even read this post when i've already said that it all matters to what deck your playing everything you said is viable in some way or another and everything i've said is viable one way or another that is why this whole talk is pointless, i'm gonna try to summerize things so im not sittin here for hours typing it would just repeat things already said.(you already have repeated your own words.)

there are a couple of things I will bring up because I think that your not thinking the same thing I am, when adan said that landstill didn't have creatures, I countered argued with saying that it did meaning factories and such are still creatures and still get removed by any creature removal that would stop goyf(cept EE) but also get removed by more things such as land removal and needle.

the post about SI, I didn't mention anything about SI other than it doesnt have anything to stop counterspell. it could be a pile and it does fizzle but I didnt say anything about it, I just said it doesnt have anything to stop counterspell thats all.

the whole thing about the pros, your are almost completly right, I do agree that they don't put enough thought into playing legacy, soo many of the things that are used by the pros are wrong, but they are still pros for a reason and I do look at the pros for what they use then test them myself to see if it works, if it does'nt then I dont use it.
the whole thing with aggro loam can be used against WOG too it still costs double white, and wasteland can still stop you from getting double white. and if you drop down 2 plains then they can still keep you from getting 4 mana for a couple of turns and that stops wrath and humility which could give them the extra turn or 2 to beat you.

if your running a heavy white deck then
YES RUN HUMILITY,
THE CARD IS DAM GOOD, IT DOES WIN GAMES ALOT but if its not a heavy white build and a 4c build I would deffinitly not play it. if ur running a 4c build with humility then the deck it even mroe vunerable to wasteland than most 4c builds, personally I run garruk which is a bitch sometimes to play. because of the double color in 4c.

right now I have 2 lists I play with on which matters whos at the tourny, if I'm in a mood to play landstill, I play my 4c build if the meta looks to be filled with threshold. but if it doesnt have a single threhsold and no goblins, which seems to happen alot. (i just play rock) I play a UW list that has humility and cunning wish. My meta has a problem of making 50% of the matchs have eva green or something that has discard and goyf put together which if added with sinkhole and wasteland is a bitch for standstill.

Sims

03-20-2008, 09:48 AM

Alright... This isn't my archtype so I wasn't going to get involved in this little flame war that's going on here, but this is ridiculous.

Landstill101, your posts are blatantly inflammatory and lacking many conventions of written English. Typos, inconsistant capitalization, run on sentences, and an overall confrontational attitude aren't exactly the best methods of getting your point across. I would suggest that you chill and cut that out relatively soon before you push the purple and red names to get medieval on you.

Secondly, while I understand that you are aguing the merits of traditional creatureless landstill vs. newer 3 and 4 color lists running Tarmogoyf, you should stop making blanket generalizations and false assumptions. While manlands are considered a win condition and become creatures to turn sideways, they are not creatures. Decree of Justice, similarly, is not a creature. Saying that a landstill list isn't creatureless because it has manlands is outright inane. Manlands and Tokens die to removal, yes, but as a control deck your goal is to ultimately take control of the game and put yourself in such a domineering state that their removal shouldn't swing the matchup in any case. Of the cards you listed as removal, most fail to remove the manland as a threat entirely due to Crucible of Worlds and Life from the Loam being in print.

Thirdly, I'd wager that 99% of Goblin lists don't play Lightning Bolt or Tarfire. This brings me to point four, the metagame argument. Don't call a European metagame an abnormal metagame. You have no right calling a US metagame normal, and everything else not. Metagames are different from place to place, even different areas of the states, based upon many factors: Playskill, Card Availability, Deckbuilding capability, and affinity for various archtypes. It just makes you look like an elitist ass to proclaim that the 4C Landstill lists that are being successful in the States are superior. The statement:

your deck won't win in a normal meta becuase obviously by this post you don't play against thresholdIs a blatently closed minded statement. Opening up your mind to the fact that this website no longer caters to the United States, predominantly North East, metagame will go a long way in helping your post quality on this site. This is a website for the advancement of the GLOBAL Legacy metagame, and if this type of closed-minded and overly confrontational posting is the best you can muster than perhaps you should pack up your toys and go elsewhere.

AND EVERYONE ELSE: Come on guys, chill a bit. You all are more level-headded than this, I know that and so do you. If we're gunna argue point/counter-point than lets at least do it in a civil way. Save the ungodly flame wars for PMs and Mishmash.

Adan

03-20-2008, 09:50 AM

when counterspell stops a lackey let me know, tell me when an engineered explosives stops a first turn lackey in landstill and i'll start a parade in new york.

How about using your brain instead of brainfarting around?

Engineered Explosives set onto 1 is the best 1st turn play (on the play obv.) you can make against Goblins. And I was talking about Counterspells in general, which includes Force of Will.

yay you have swords 1 frickin card, that does nothing against a vial and it doesnt stop the creatures after you swords the lackey, if these cards help you so much then why wasn't landstill the number one deck(before goyf came out) because goblins just restocks 3 times better than landstill. and are you still forgetting you still need double white for humility, wow I guess those wastelands and ports don't stop that.

You run 4 Basiclands and Wastelands by yourself to shut off Port...

you still dont read do you...... You still have manlands, those still are creatures, they still die to:
swords
smother
diabolic edict
bolt
helix
shreikmaw(if used right)
deed
tarfire
incinerater
needle
wasteland
port
sinkhole
vindicate
ohhhh and it still gets blocked...

Then how do you explain UWb's success on the tourneys posted before?

yes you are completely right, EE stops a lackey and piledriver:eek: and it stops a warchief and a vial:tongue: also droping a standstill after a vial or lackey is on board is prob the best play I can think of.
oh and swords stops goblins in its tracks thats why goblins is the worst deck in the format................(now if your taking this seriously adan pls go back to first grade)

I think i have to repeat myself, Engineered Explosives set on 1 ON THE PLAY is the best way to prevent your opponent from playing Vial/lackey 1st Turn so you can drop Standstill 2nd turn afterwards.

and this just proves you wrong for the 3 time! Priceless! I did mention in my post that I'm talking about U.S. only but obviously you didn't read that. Many german players have done well with other non 4c lists but their meta is different than ours so their list has to be tweeked different. this is an archtype thats why there is more than 1 list

You were NOT talking about the U.S. Edits are not accepted. But still, there are lists without creatures and they were still successful. Also see Geoff Smelski's Landstill (regged as konsultant here afaik) which was also a basic for the design of Cunning Landstill.

sooo when has this website not used the U.S. meta not been that meta used to make claims on cards, if you are using your claim on your meta and its nothing like the normal meta then what the fuck are you doing flaming anoyn on here? your deck won't win in a normal meta becuase obviously by this post you don't play against threshold soo that means YOUR DECK WILL BE DIFFERENT cmon, my deck would be different too if I didn't have threshold in my meta.

Aha, non-american meta = not a normal meta. That's national-fetishism and hereby the most stupid argument you could ever bring to this website that has become an international discussion-platform.
With your behavior, you would make the stay of all the european and asian magic players here redundant.

As I said you have not tested goyf enough to make a claim, sideboard doesnt count since its not in the first game and that is already not giving it a chance since you don't play it mainboard, you don't know how much it actually helps you and don't side it in.

Oh yeah, sideboard doesn't count. It doesn't count anyways because I'm german, doesn't it?

it wouldnt happen if you could distinquish the difference between 4c builds and 2c builds.

Well, I just had a flash of insight: 4color Landstill plays tarmogoyf because without Goyf, it's the slowest variant you can play.

to everyone whos about to reply to this, If your running a 2c build yes you should run humility, I would, it has better synergy with how the deck works. but if your running a 4c build then humility shouldn't even be a consideration, but goyf does help with alot of problems that landstill has. I'm not posting saying humility is bad, I'm only saying that it matters on the deck list, you can't say that one card is always better to play, there are many cases that each one is better than the other.

So have I ever said something wrong? Tarmogoyf's inclusion into 4color Landstill may be justified because without Goyf, you can just win like Turn 20 or something like that. Goyf may accelerate the average killing-speed, but the arguments you (thus teh removal) used are also true for Tarmogoyf.

edit:

@CorruptedAngel:

If we should ever meet in the U.S. or if you came to Germany: I'll spring you a beer for that.

landstill101

03-20-2008, 09:58 AM

You're on the play. You know you're playing against Goblins. You should always preemptively drop an Engineered Explosives at 1.
Your opponent looks at his Lackey/Vial in hand and goes to frowntown.
Now if I can make it to that parade... :tongue:

Humility stops their restockings.
Goyf just dies to their Warren Weirdings.
Basic Plains and uncracked Fetchlands help against Port and Wasteland which start to be dropped out of many builds anyways.

Crucible of Worlds helps winning with Mishra's Factories tremendously. Before you start with your 'CoW will get countered/removed etc.' argument: that's what Academy Ruins is for (and you can even tutor it up!).

Yeah, in Germany people actually play decks that are kind of bad matchups for Landstill (read: anything with a recursion engine [Life from the Loam, Genesis etc.]). Apart from this, our metas still are the most random thing ever (unprediactable since ever regular plays a different deck on every tournament) so that you always have to prepare for every deck possible - which shouldn't be that different in the States.

where do you live ill bring the parade to you, god dam you had to prove me wrong didnt you. The only reason I said this is to say that when I talk about it, i'm going off meaning that you don't know what the person is playing,( I have done that move too to stop lackey) mainly because if you dont stop lackey you will lose, and doing that about 30% of the time is a dud and they will still play vial or lackey to get you to blow the explosives so they can play another one. oh and that only works if you go first which for me atleast, I seem to have bad luck when it comes to going first. so i make sure that I dont have to go first to win the match. I cant argue anything bout having black in goblins only because I've never played against it mainly becuase most of the goblin players I know don't want to make goblins a control deck and add all the new black cards, and tehy feel that the wierding isnt good enough to add a third color.

and it still comes down to the list, 4c lists wont play basics if you have ruins, you will get more mana screwed by your own mana base than wastelands or blood moon. if you do pls post a list up here for me so i can run it. I never siad you can't play humility in 4c, i run garruk, but it makes it alot alot hard to run it because of double color.

Wasteland

03-20-2008, 10:03 AM

to everyone whos about to reply to this, If your running a 2c build yes you should run humility, I would, it has better synergy with how the deck works. but if your running a 4c build then humility shouldn't even be a consideration, but goyf does help with alot of problems that landstill has. I'm not posting saying humility is bad, I'm only saying that it matters on the deck list, you can't say that one card is always better to play, there are many cases that each one is better than the other

I never siad you can't play humility in 4c

ah ok^^

diffy

03-20-2008, 10:05 AM

where do you live ill bring the parade to you, god dam you had to prove me wrong didnt you. The only reason I said this is to say that when I talk about it, i'm going off meaning that you don't know what the person is playing,( I have done that move too to stop lackey) mainly because if you dont stop lackey you will lose, and doing that about 30% of the time is a dud and they will still play vial or lackey to get you to blow the explosives so they can play another one. oh and that only works if you go first which for me atleast, I seem to have bad luck when it comes to going first. so i make sure that I dont have to go first to win the match. I cant argue anything bout having black in goblins only because I've never played against it mainly becuase most of the goblin players I know don't want to make goblins a control deck and add all the new black cards, and tehy feel that the wierding isnt good enough to add a third color.

As the green splash is only a very small one (Tin-Street Hooligan main, Grip in the board), I don't see a reason for Goblins not to adopt a black splash. The new additions are just that strong (Wort, Weirding etc.) especially since Weirding stops all the problems with Goyf that Goblins ever had. But this is not the place for this debate.

and it still comes down to the list, 4c lists wont play basics if you have ruins, you will get more mana screwed by your own mana base than wastelands or blood moon. if you do pls post a list up here for me so i can run it. I never siad you can't play humility in 4c, i run garruk, but it makes it alot alot hard to run it because of double color.

My 4c Cunning Landstill (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=213029&postcount=1280)
Marius' 4c Cunning Landstill (http://mercadia.de/home/page.php?site=magic/deck2/deck&id=61493)

landstill101

03-20-2008, 10:09 AM

How about using your brain instead of brainfarting around?

Engineered Explosives set onto 1 is the best 1st turn play (on the play obv.) you can make against Goblins. And I was talking about Counterspells in general, which includes Force of Will.

You run 4 Basiclands and Wastelands by yourself to shut off Port...

Then how do you explain UWb's success on the tourneys posted before?

I think i have to repeat myself, Engineered Explosives set on 1 ON THE PLAY is the best way to prevent your opponent from playing Vial/lackey 1st Turn so you can drop Standstill 2nd turn afterwards.

You were NOT talking about the U.S. Edits are not accepted. But still, there are lists without creatures and they were still successful. Also see Geoff Smelski's Landstill (regged as konsultant here afaik) which was also a basic for the design of Cunning Landstill.

Aha, non-american meta = not a normal meta. That's national-fetishism and hereby the most stupid argument you could ever bring to this website that has become an international discussion-platform.
With your behavior, you would make the stay of all the european and asian magic players here redundant.

Oh yeah, sideboard doesn't count. It doesn't count anyways because I'm german, doesn't it?

Well, I just had a flash of insight: 4color Landstill plays tarmogoyf because without Goyf, it's the slowest variant you can play.

So have I ever said something wrong? Tarmogoyf's inclusion into 4color Landstill may be justified because without Goyf, you can just win like Turn 20 or something like that. Goyf may accelerate the average killing-speed, but the arguments you (thus teh removal) used are also true for Tarmogoyf.

edit:

@CorruptedAngel:

If we should ever meet in the U.S. or if you came to Germany: I'll spring you a beer for that.

Have you ever heard the qoute " americans are ignorant" if you ever notice, the crazy decks out that that have many twists and such that make 4c builds have a harder time, are usually made by non americans because many americans don't think for themselves and use the internet to make thier deck instead of adding their own tech to win games. now if u truly want to flame your own country go ahead, It not a lie to say that america has a different meta than europe and asia. pls explain to me why is it only europe players can win with non 4c builds, do you have a tumor on your head that lets you read your opponants mind to help you win??? pls enlighten me.

its is the normal meta, its not americas fault that we play magic more than anyone else. its not our fault that becuase america wants to play threshhold that its the number 1 deck right now, I can't change the american minds about tarmogoyf, and when this site is using america meta to make the DTB threads the obviously its the normal. cmon germany get on the band wagon and use websites to build your list for you jeez.

landstill101

03-20-2008, 10:13 AM

As the green splash is only a very small one (Tin-Street Hooligan main, Grip in the board), I don't see a reason for Goblins not to adopt a black splash. The new additions are just that strong (Wort, Weirding etc.) especially since Weirding stops all the problems with Goyf that Goblins ever had. But this is not the place for this debate.

My 4c Cunning Landstill (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=213029&postcount=1280)
Marius' 4c Cunning Landstill (http://mercadia.de/home/page.php?site=magic/deck2/deck&id=61493)

sryy i cant argue with you about goblins I have never personally played goblins, I stick with landstill, rock, threshold, eva green, or combo, so i cant give arguement either way that is for the goblin thread to talk about, I just told you what the goblin players where I live say, and one of them is 4th in OHIO with ranking soo what he says about goblins is what I go with.

oh I looked at your 4c build and I do like the build and I'm gonna try it in the next couple of weeks to see how it is played. not sure if i can play it in my meta only becuase theres tons of sinkholes and wasteland but I will try it.

landstill101

03-20-2008, 10:17 AM

ah ok^^

lol.... I know your prob typin up something, if you want to run humility then you can, der just showed a list that can do it, and I'm gonna try it out, but his list really focuses on the land which makes it easier for him to do it and hes very white heavy, I prob shouldn't have made the generlization of saying it shouldn't be considered, but I was talking to the lists that go towards the variants of the starter of 4c, BHWC landstill.

Please review the rules and regulations for posting on this board. They can be found here. (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7455) Pay particular attention to the section on Writing Skills and #5 of Prohibited topics.

In short, please use proper punctuation in your sentences and do not "double-post."

-PR

diffy

03-20-2008, 10:17 AM

pls explain to me why is it only europe players can win with non 4c builds, do you have a tumor on your head that lets you read your opponants mind to help you win??? pls enlighten me.

Willingness to invest a lot of time into testing/tweaking. (Have you ever heard that Germans are supposed to be especially hard working and thorough :wink: ?)
On another note, it might also be a difference in playstyle. I've only recently noted this but it seems as though Americans tend to play Landstill more like MUC with better removal while at least I play it more like MWC with permission for scary stuff like 'Geddon and opposing card advantage.

Also, Tacosnape just recently posted about people not having the mindset to play control-centered long games and not being able to formulate a complete plan in your mind. As he's an American (I guess) he's probably talking about his sourroundings but I've never quite seen this problem where I play. I'm not going to get into a deep analysis of the American psychis versus the German psychis but for sure there's a difference.

when this site is using america meta to make the DTB threads the obviously its the normal.

March Update

The most recent 10 tournies with 33 or more players:

1/20/08 - Cremona, Italy
1/20/08 - Hassloch, Germany
1/20/08 - Iserlohn, Germany
1/26/08 - 3rd Running GAGG, Geneseo, NY, USA
1/27/08 - Ancient Memories #32, Akihabara, Japan
2/9/08 – Barcelona, Spain
2/10/08 – Measer, Italy
2/17/08 – Hassloch, Germany
2/24/08 – Pilar de lo Horadad, Spain
2/24/08 - Ancient Memories #33, Akihabara, Japan

That's a grand total of one American tournament used for the March DtB Forum update.
The month before that, 3 American tournaments where taken into account.
In January, 2 American tournaments where taken into account.
In December, 3 American tournaments where taken into account.
Go and check yourself... just have a look at this (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5460) data: there's just an ever increasing amount of non-American data that has to be taken into account and especially as of late, non-American tournaments seem to outnumber American tournaments by large so that it's not fair to disregard them and just take the US-Meta as the 'norm'.

cmon germany get on the band wagon and use websites to build your list for you jeez.

You realize that by this you sign the death of innovation? If no body bothers to invest ages into testing/tweaking and such and only netdecks the ideas of others, stagnation will ensue, the format will become boring and eventually die. It is innovation that keeps a format alive.

his list

Just to clarify something, Wasteland is Marius Hausman is the guy that probably knows more about Landstill than anyone else in Germany/Europe and has won more money with diverse variants than anyone I know and only recently (like a year or two ago) I came to meet him. Since then we're developing Landstill together so my list basically is his.

you don't know what the person is playing

Play fast in the first round and then go Decksyping. It is not illegal as far as I know and it is very valuable for any control deck to know what you're up against.

Adan

03-20-2008, 10:41 AM

Willingness to invest a lot of time into testing/tweaking. (Have you ever heard that Germans are supposed to be especially hard working and thorough :wink: ?)
On another note, it might also be a difference in playstyle. I've only recently noted this but it seems as though Americans tend to play Landstill more like MUC with better removal while at least I play it more like MWC with permission for scary stuff like 'Geddon and opposing card advantage.

That's a grand total of one American tournament used for the March DtB Forum update.
The month before that, 3 American tournaments where taken into account.
In January, 2 American tournaments where taken into account.
In December, 3 American tournaments where taken into account.
Go and check yourself... just have a look at this (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5460) data.

You realize that by this you sign the death of innovation? If no body bothers to invest ages into testing/tweaking and such and only netdecks the ideas of others, stagnation will ensue.

Just to clarify something, Wasteland is Marius Hausman is the guy that probably knows more about Landstill than anyone else in Germany/Europe and has won more money with diverse variants than anyone I know and only recently (like a year or two ago) I came to meet him. Since then we're developing Landstill together so my list basically is his.

German engineering inda house, yaah!

And yes, Wasteland IS Marius Hausmann. And he has indeed more experience with Landstill than anyone else in Germany (except with UR Landstill which became my territory, hihi).

Though this flaming is quite amusing: Where are the mods at?

mossivo1986

03-20-2008, 12:24 PM

Der, I agree with what your saying i've noticed this with alot of people to. People who I used to think were solid players are now playing stupid stupid aggro decks that take lik 0 skill to play. It really pisses me off. Atleast in standard. "rogues, faries, elves." I hate them all. Talk about "ugh, I win because I got big cweata's!, or Flyas, or cause I cast stuff after I ttack like a good playa!!!, this feels like madness!!

Madness?
THIS IS SPARTA!!!!!!!

Anyways, I think your both are right. I feel like people just don't plan their full circle control game at all. They plan for the next turn and thats it. When im playing I take my time and on their turn am planning for the full rotations next turn. If something happens differently then I would expect it just alters things a bit and i'd say about 65% of the time I can predict the tempo and whos going to win based on plays that are made in the first couple of turns. Most people can do this but I don't think most people can hold it and see that far ahead and the open and shut doors ect.

Anyways im seriously stoked that landstill101 is actually arguing goyf into 4c builds. It's a horrible idea and someone needs to be kidney punched for it.

But moving along.

mossivo1986

03-20-2008, 12:28 PM

Ohh and BTW if you want my opinion on what landstill plays like if you remember standard around last year when angelfire was around I think it feels alot like that . A very slow very consistent inevitable rwu deck with all the answers and counters.

Berzerked

03-20-2008, 01:18 PM

Wow, this is absurd. Every one of you are cherry picking situations that might be better for the card you are defending. No one here can predict every situation you'll face. My metagame isn't the same as yours. It's not the same as the one's in which the lists posted online play in. When I travel to another state to play, it's going to be a different metagame. None of you can predict what you'll see, so stop acting like you know it all.
Oh, we're from Germany, blah, blah, blah...c'mon. Please, suck each other's dicks off of the forums so I don't have to listen to it. (Everyone wanted to say it, please don't issue me an infraction.)

Now, on to the relevant stuff:

Since you wanted to see a list, here it is:

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
1 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Nantuko Monastery
(Standard)

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Fact or Fiction
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Engineered Explosives
(Standard)

Here come the discrepancies:

2 flex (currently LftL/Quagnoth)
4 Tarmogoyf

Now, to address some issues (mind you, I WON'T be cherry picking, these are all issues that all of us have come up against, so don't bullshit):

1. Counterspells win you the game against combo. Please, spare me this nonsense. FoW stops Belcher in the early game, sure, but then what? 2 damage a turn, for 2 mana a turn until they rebuild and you hope you've draw another counter or two. No, I'd rather win in the next 4 turns. Against TES, with all the tricks up their sleeve, Goyf is the ONLY way you can hope to win if you have even managed to stop them the first time. Breakfast has got enough must counter's that you won't have one left when they bounce your Humility. Don't get it twisted, Goyf and Humiliity are equally as worthless at stopping them from going off in this matchup, but again Goyf kills before they rebuild. I'm saying this from experience, my testing partners favorite archetype is combo in general, so I've seen it all. Goyf is my lifesaver in these games.

1. Having Humility in the deck makes Goblins a bye. Again, this is false. You've got 2 Humility, and I've got 4 Goyf. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand the frequency at which either will be drawn. If you draw the Humility, hope their 4 Waste/4 Port hasn't kept you off double white. I don't think so. It's the same problem post-board with Plague. I need 1 Trop to drop Goyf and stall a couple of turns. While I'm stalling, they are over-extending to either overrun him, search out kill, or just to fuel Incinerator. Meanwhile, they aren't touching my manabase, so my Deed drops and it's even more potent. OMG I just killed my own Goyf with Deed...see how stupid that sounds when it just allowed me the needed turns to stabilize. Sure, I'll give you that when Humility hits play it's probably game, but I'd rather have a chance to actually play the card in the first place. Goblins runs this shit for a reason.

3. I SBed Goyf and it sucked. DUH!!! I would never board in Goyf when there's a zillion better things to board in. I'm not sure if you know how to read, but I said GOYF IS THE MOST VERSATILE OPTION YOU CAN RUN. You run versatility MD because you're blind against you're opponent game 1, and specific answers in the board. Who runs FoW SB? Not me. That being said, Goyf is so good, it doesn't need to be boarded out. the dead cards get boarded out (StP, Standstill).

Humility might be the shit in 3 color. Sweet, go jerk off to that. I play 4 color so i have access to Deed and Grip in the board. In my case Goyf is the shit. Other than that, they are not comparable, especially if there isn't a possibility of them being played in the same deck.

@mossivo: I'm not sure if I quite understood your last post, but it seems to me as if you were arguing for the non-inclusion of Goyf. If this is true, then why, a couple pages back, were you fighting for it's inclusion tooth and nail. If this is not true, then never mind.

I think all this nonsense is an indicator that WE NEED SEPARATE THREADS BECAUSE WE ARE ALL DISCUSSING DIFFERENT DECKS. UBGx and UBW for sure need their own threads. After that, it doesn't matter because the red variants aren't popular or good enough to warrant it.

Tacosnape

03-20-2008, 01:58 PM

1. Counterspells win you the game against combo. Please, spare me this nonsense. FoW stops Belcher in the early game, sure, but then what? 2 damage a turn, for 2 mana a turn until they rebuild and you hope you've draw another counter or two. No, I'd rather win in the next 4 turns. Against TES, with all the tricks up their sleeve, Goyf is the ONLY way you can hope to win if you have even managed to stop them the first time. Breakfast has got enough must counter's that you won't have one left when they bounce your Humility. Don't get it twisted, Goyf and Humiliity are equally as worthless at stopping them from going off in this matchup, but again Goyf kills before they rebuild. I'm saying this from experience, my testing partners favorite archetype is combo in general, so I've seen it all. Goyf is my lifesaver in these games.

The huge flaw in your logic is that if Tarmogoyfs are replacing Stifles/Snares/Cards that stop TES/Belcher from going off, here's what happens.

1. If you have only the Goyf and can't stop them, you lose. If you had only the Stifle (For Tendrils, anyway), you get several more turns to draw into what you need to stop them the second time.

2. If you had a Force and a Goyf, you stop them once and have the Goyf. If you'd had a Force and a Stifle, you stop them twice.

3. If TES has a Chant and you have a Force and a Goyf, you lose. If TES has a Chant and you have a Force and a Stifle, you can Force the Chant and still have an out.

So, in short, yes, Counterspells do beat combo. Occam's Razor, meet Legacy.

...Oh, and by the way, rumor has it that Meddling Mage is really good at stopping subsequent combo-offs and being a clock at the same time.

thefreakaccident

03-20-2008, 02:07 PM

@ berzerked's last post:

If anything you yourself deserve the infraction, as you seem to be the one actually attacking people, but since I do not want for one myself, I will drop the subject.

I do agree that I think they deserve different threads for the different varients... as they do play out quite differently... it would be just the same as the split of the threshold varients (ugb, ugr, ugw...).

I think the red splash has its' merits, it playss an aggressive control if that makes any sense, using tempo and card advantage to smother your oponents' development and further your own, until you are in a late game states and they are stuck in an early/mid game state... then you just for through for the win through attrition and man land beats... again, it has its' merits, juust like any other landstill deck.

This however, is not my playstyle... I have been testing it (Adan's build, you germans and your teck), but I think I will stick with Der's list, as it is my play style.

Der's deck plays much differently from other landstill decks, as it plays like a board control strategy (read Rabid wombat/MWC), and uses its' draw/utility/countermagic as supplementing card to further its' goal of board oppression.

Both of these two strategies play very differently from the classic 4c american list, as that deck plays very much like MUC (previously stated), but it also has board control options in the form of creature removal, and has access to better kill conditions (Read Goyf & monastary), but has no real "I win now, thank you" cards, like Ur and UWb has.

Again, they all have their merits, but they are all quite different, and cannot be compared directly.

diffy

03-20-2008, 02:13 PM

Wow, this is absurd. Every one of you are cherry picking situations that might be better for the card you are defending. No one here can predict every situation you'll face.

It's not about 'cherry picking' situations, it's about determining the card that is better and the build that is best.

None of you can predict what you'll see, so stop acting like you know it all.

Apart from this, our metas still are the most random thing ever (unprediactable since ever regular plays a different deck on every tournament) so that you always have to prepare for every deck possible - which shouldn't be that different in the States.

It's about the best deck for any situation - not about any metagame specific stuff. Just imagine an optimal metagame that is 100% random but with a reasonable distribution of the DtBs. That is the metagame I design my decks for.
Which leads me to my next point:

I think all this nonsense is an indicator that WE NEED SEPARATE THREADS BECAUSE WE ARE ALL DISCUSSING DIFFERENT DECKS. UBGx and UBW for sure need their own threads. After that, it doesn't matter because the red variants aren't popular or good enough to warrant it.

I think that this thread is about establishing the universally best variant. Separate threads might be more efficient for the actual development of the individual decks though.

Since you wanted to see a list, here it is:

Your average American-style 4c list that looses to way too much stuff (Pithing Needle, Extirpate, Life from the Loam etc.). For more information about my attitude towards 4c American Landstill, see this (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=103092) discussion over at Salvation.

1. Counterspells win you the game against combo. Please, spare me this nonsense. FoW stops Belcher in the early game, sure, but then what? 2 damage a turn, for 2 mana a turn until they rebuild and you hope you've draw another counter or two. No, I'd rather win in the next 4 turns. Against TES, with all the tricks up their sleeve, Goyf is the ONLY way you can hope to win if you have even managed to stop them the first time. Breakfast has got enough must counter's that you won't have one left when they bounce your Humility.

Counterspells are your only way to victory in these matchups anyways. Counters and Cunning Wish for Extirpate.
Also, why would you counter anything against Breakfast if you know that they can't win now and if you're just going to drop a Humility on turn4 and then win? It's not like they always have that 1off bounce spell (most of them don't even play a non-creature bounce main anyways) and they're pretty slow at digging too.

Don't get it twisted, Goyf and Humiliity are equally as worthless at stopping them from going off in this matchup, but again Goyf kills before they rebuild. I'm saying this from experience, my testing partners favorite archetype is combo in general, so I've seen it all. Goyf is my lifesaver in these games.

Goyf kills them in four turns at best - by that time they should have recovered easily. Sure it's better than Factory or DoJ but the question is: do you want to play a card that is slightly better in a diminishingly popular matchup or a rahter something that is a bomb in every other matchup? I'd go with option 2 all day long.

1. Having Humility in the deck makes Goblins a bye. Again, this is false. You've got 2 Humility, and I've got 4 Goyf. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand the frequency at which either will be drawn. If you draw the Humility, hope their 4 Waste/4 Port hasn't kept you off double white. I don't think so.
Sure, I'll give you that when Humility hits play it's probably game, but I'd rather have a chance to actually play the card in the first place. Goblins runs this shit for a reason.

No-one ever said that Goblins were rendered to a bye only because of the inclusion of Humility. It does make your matchup better by quite a margin though: Goblins just can't really win with a Humility on the table and it's not that difficult to bring one down when your manabase doesn't totally suck. Just stick to your fetchies and dig for more lands. Eternal Dragon is also pretty useful here although many people have discarded him.
Also, it is quite a while ago that I've seen a Goblins list with a full playset of both Wastelands and Rishadan Ports.
I'll say it again (I sometimes feel as if people don't read posts that are not directed directly at them): Goblins is not the fastest deck on earth once you've stoped their initial assault (the turn1 nasty stuff aka. AEther Vial and Goblin Lackey).
You do have the time to get to double white and cast your expensive spells. I'm speaking of experience here... you have probably never touched the UWb list nor tested the matchup so you don't know how it feels and what the dynamics are. Theory can only get you so far.

It's the same problem post-board with Plague. I need 1 Trop to drop Goyf and stall a couple of turns.

I don't quite get this statement. Don't we also just need one Underground Sea/Scrubland to drop an Engineered Plague and see what's next?

While I'm stalling, they are over-extending to either overrun him, search out kill, or just to fuel Incinerator.

I'll say it again: Tarmogoyf just isn't that great an option against Goblins anymore as they'll just cast a Warren Weirdings and laugh. Maybe not enough player have adopted this yet but I'm pretty sure that they will pretty soon.

Meanwhile, they aren't touching my manabase, so my Deed drops and it's even more potent.

Again, this statement can be applied to Humility/Wog (read: reaching double white) too. It's not like you're not doing anything and if they don't have a Vial, they can either hamper their own development and screw your manabase or play dorks. Remember, the curve of your average Goblin deck starts at 3 (excluding must handles and ignorable cards like Piledriver) which is even more expensive than most of your stuff.

Deed against Goblins

Another example where Wrath of God is supperior to Deed: you don't need to waste an entire turn and then another one to clear the board.

Oh, we're from Germany, blah, blah, blah...c'mon. Please, suck each other's dicks off of the forums so I don't have to listen to it. (Everyone wanted to say it, please don't issue me an infraction.)

Uh?

Tacosnape

03-20-2008, 02:20 PM

Your average American-style 4c list that looses to way too much stuff (Pithing Needle, Extirpate, Life from the Loam etc.). For more information about my attitude towards 4c American Landstill, see this (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=103092) discussion over at Salvation.

Arguably this would exclude me from being an average 4C American Landstill list (Despite that I somehow feel like that phrase points directly at me), but I don't auto-lose to any of the listed cards. Deed + Crime//Punishment both kill Needle, (And occasionally I pack a 1/1 Split of Seal of Primordium/Cleansing in board to hit the Needle on Deed), I run Extirpate both main and in board and postboard can be really easy (or still awful) depending on the Loam build, and I can survive Extirpate on any two targets in my deck and still win without much worry. Hypothetically, I can still win having any -three- targets Extirpated, but this would make it pretty difficult.

EDIT: Actually, no I can't. Extirpate on Tundra/Factory/Jace would shut off all my kill conditions and leave me having to deck my opponent with Standstills, which I've only done once or twice before. I can still survive any two, though.

diffy

03-20-2008, 02:37 PM

Arguably this would exclude me from being an average 4C American Landstill list, but I don't auto-lose to any of the listed cards. Deed + Crime//Punishment both kill Needle (And occasionally I pack a 1/1 Split of Seal of Primordium/Cleansing in board), I run Extirpate both main and in board and postboard can be really easy (or still awful) depending on the Loam build, and I can survive Extirpate on any two targets in my deck and still win without much worry. Hypothetically, I can still win having any -three- targets Extirpated, but this would make it pretty difficult.

I'll just take this last list (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=214313&postcount=1326) of you for refference.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough, appologies for that.

The point of Pithing Needle being strong against the average American 4c Landstill was in regards to Needle naming Pernicious Deed which would only leave you with Swords to Plowshares and Diabolic Edict for removal - both of which can be dealt with via things like Counterbalance. You do have a singleton Crime/Punishment to remove the Needle though but it being a singleton means that you won't have it on time, before something like NQG has put you on some massive Tarmogoyf beats backed up by Counterbalance. I'm saying this because even against UWb Landstill, the matchup becomes significantly harder if they name Enginneered Explosives with their Needles, but even then I still have some WoGs for mass removal - the average 4c list will then just be left with spot removal (vulnerable to Balance etc.).
Extirpate on winconditons is a hawt play against any Landstill variant, but Extirpate on the lands of 4c Landstill is even better. For sure you can remedy this via playing the Ravnica Shock Duals but just no-one does that and it would leave you vulnerable to Wastelands then.
Also, that list seems to loose pretty badly to any deck packing a recursion engine. For sure you'll eventually draw your Extirpate, but then they've generated a critical amount of card advantage and will overpower you soon. It's even worse against Aggro-Loam (heck that is a bad matchup, people in Germany have even started packing 8-Moons main) where you don't have the time to draw your Extirpate - I sometimes even feel that a virtual count of 3 main is not enough so that for sure one won't be enough.
Arguably you could just give up your game1s and then hope to win the following 2 but that would put you under significant time constraints (especially relevant against the more controlish BRG Loam [it's called Land Ho! I think]) and leave the risk of the random opposing 'too good' draw or of you not drawing your hate.
Also, that manabase is still pretty horrible when facing Blood Moon or Back to Basics :wink: .

On a personal note, I still respect the American Landstill builds and the people that put a great effort into improving upon them, I just don't find the builds satisfactory when I pick them up if compared to the more German builds.
That phrase was certainly not meant to point to you in any ways, especially those last few builds are miles away from what I call an average American build (which would be more like your old list (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=150404&postcount=339)s which have picked up quite some popularity).

Osse

03-20-2008, 02:56 PM

I'll just take this last list (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=214313&postcount=1326) of you for refference.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough, appologies for that.

The point of Pithing Needle being strong against the average American 4c Landstill was in regards to Needle naming Pernicious Deed which would only leave you with Swords to Plowshares and Diabolic Edict for removal - both of which can be dealt with via things like Counterbalance. You do have a singleton Crime/Punishment to remove the Needle though but it being a singleton means that you won't have it on time, before something like NQG has put you on some massive Tarmogoyf beats backed up by Counterbalance. I' saying this because even against UWb Landstill, the matchup becomes significantly harder if they name Enginneered Explosives with their Needles, but even then I still have some WoGs for mass removal - the average 4c list will then just be left with spot removal (vulnerable to Balance etc.).
Extirpate on winconditons is a hawt play against any Landstill variant, but Extirpate on the lands of 4c Landstill is even better. For sure you can remedy this via playing the Ravnica Shock Duals but just no-one does that and it would leave you vulnerable to Wastelands then.
Also, that list seems to loose pretty badly to any deck packing a recursion engine. For sure you'll eventually draw your Extirpate, but then they've generated a critical amount of card advantage and will overpower you soon. It's even worse against Aggro-Loam (heck that is a bad matchup, people in Germany have even started packing 8-Moons main) where you don't have the time to draw your Extirpate - I sometimes even feel that a virtual count of 3 main is not enough so that for sure one won't be enough.
Arguably you could just give up your game1s and then hope to win the following 2 but that would put you under significant time constraints (especially relevant against the more controlish BRG Loam [it's called Land Ho! I think]) and leave the risk of the random opposing 'too good' draw or of you not drawing your hate.

On a personal note, I still respect the American Landstill builds and the people that put a great effort into improving upon them, I just don't find the builds satisfactory when I pick them up if compared to the more German builds.
That phrase was certainly not meant to point to you in any ways, especially those last few builds are miles away from what I call an average American build (which would be more like your old list (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=150404&postcount=339)s which have picked up quite some popularity).

In regards to extirpating the Manabase, I think the problem stems from people not making proper manabases if they really think they will lose to Extirpate. Every Control deck has problems with Extirpate, and in my experience hitting the manabase is almost always wrong (Landstill MAY be acceptable, since you can hit utility lands like Wasteland or Factory, etc).

Also almost all control decks have trouble with recursion engines, theres nothing new about that. Cbalance and your own Extirpates can deal with this sometimes though.

I'm happy to see people are running 8-moon plan, Manabases in legacy are terrible.

diffy

03-20-2008, 03:03 PM

In regards to extirpating the Manabase, I think the problem stems from people not making proper manabases if they really think they will lose to Extirpate.

One reason why I don't like what I'm calling the average American lists.

Every Control deck has problems with Extirpate, and in my experience hitting the manabase is almost always wrong (Landstill MAY be acceptable, since you can hit utility lands like Wasteland or Factory, etc).

True. Hitting Winconditions or Mass Removal is pretty good against any Landstill but Extirpate is even more devastating against 4c. For example hitting a Tropical against something like Berzerked's list (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=216891&postcount=1431) is pretty hawt because now they're cut of their main mass removal (Pernicious Deed) and all their winconditions but Mishra's Factory which is easy to remove too because they're cut off a way to recur them (Life from the Loam) too.

Also almost all control decks have trouble with recursion engines, theres nothing new about that. Cbalance and your own Extirpates can deal with this sometimes though.

I find Counterbalance to be horrible in Landstill because it's not reliable enough with all those lands and that curve that's all over the place.
Extirpates help a great deal and are probably your only viable option. This is why I play Cunning Wish main which no-one outside of Germany does (another reason why I can't really like the American lists: they're just giving up game1s against their only bad matchups - and focus on making good matchups better which is borderline winmore in my book).

Berzerked

03-20-2008, 03:19 PM

Osse

03-20-2008, 03:38 PM

@Taco: I was not arguing whether Stifle is better than Goyf against combo. We all know that it is. In fact, I didn't even mention Stifle. In a combo heavy meta a play Stifle in my flex slots. That way I have Stifle to stop the combo and Goyf to race. About Meddling Mage...ok, you didn't prove anything. Post board StP comes out for Mage and now I have Mage + Goyf...

Again, I'm arguing that Goyf is the most versatile and the best against the widest array of decks in that slot. Please people, understand this statement. Not that it is better against any one deck.

@freak: When did I imply that anyone else deserved an infraction? I said please don't give ME an infraction for my comment, acknowledging the fact that my statement probably deserves one, but I'd rather not get it...

@freud: So what makes you think there is a universally best variant? Thresh has a zillion variants and they all have their strengths and weaknesses. I'd argue (and I hope that someone would back me up), that there is no best variant. Since thresh has 3 separate threads, why can't we get 2?
About Breakfast and not countering anything. I suppose you always have Humility in hand? Seriously, this is what I mean by cherry picking. Also WoG isn't better than Deed. It might be better in certain situations, but Deed is better in more.

There is always a better card than another card in any situation. I'm arguing for cards that are better in MOST situations.

Fact is that there isn't, but having multiple threads isn't going to change that. Thresh having 3 seperate threads isn't something we should use an example. The point is to make the most efficient build, where minor changes can be anything. I think arguing over "+1 Loam, -1 Crucible because Extirpate hurts" is a stupid argument. But stuff like "I'll run WoG/Damnation over Deed because it makes my Goblins matchup better" is fine. I think the major problem with everyone arguing about card choices is that you're not really testing properly. Test the goblins matchup pre board a couple dozen times, see whether Deed is better or worse than 'x' and then see if Goblins is the only matchup that this is true for, and whether you can win with Deed anyways (does Deed over WoG turn the matchup too much?). Like, I'll run Smother over Snuff Out because Confidant is a better target in the metagame than say Gathan Raiders is. [/rant]

mossivo1986

03-20-2008, 04:24 PM

@freud: So what makes you think there is a universally best variant? Thresh has a zillion variants and they all have their strengths and weaknesses. I'd argue (and I hope that someone would back me up), that there is no best variant. Since thresh has 3 separate threads, why can't we get 2?
About Breakfast and not countering anything. I suppose you always have Humility in hand? Seriously, this is what I mean by cherry picking. Also WoG isn't better than Deed. It might be better in certain situations, but Deed is better in more.

I brought this up a couple of months ago, and without getting a chance to even defend what I said "because they took it out of this thread so quickly" and gave it to mod's who apparently crushed my good idea with their laughter.

HAHA 1-3 color land stilll and 4 color landstill threads? What a joke, what a noob.

Yeah thats about how I fealt. Anyways you mention cherry picking and I don't think you can make a point like that in this forum. Everyone does it, I just did it, but I fealt like this was the most relevent to me, so I chose it.

Anyways heres an interesting suggestion I fealt deserved a call and make fun of me if I sound like an idiot.

With all the matchups that one sides in extirpate dont you feel like as a card it's worth maindecking? I mean what dont you side it in for?

angel stax
gobos
RDW

and thats about it, every other matchup it comes in for slots x-z. So anyone think it's about time to maindeck some pates? or no?

Its just a question and please dont flame me for it.

Osse

03-20-2008, 07:31 PM

diffy

03-21-2008, 05:50 AM

Again, I'm arguing that Goyf is the most versatile and the best against the widest array of decks in that slot. Please people, understand this statement. Not that it is better against any one deck.

Okay, I'll give you that Goyf is better against Combo. Now what percentage of the field normally is combo? 10%? 15%? Definetely not more.
The rest of the decks are thankful for you to play Goyf: they now have a relevant target for their removal - Goyf just doesn't belong in Landstill: it is fragile as hell as a wincondition, it is unreliable as a blocker and needs you to play an otherwise horrible color (making your manabase suck and scooping to Blood Moon & Co.).

So what makes you think there is a universally best variant? Thresh has a zillion variants and they all have their strengths and weaknesses. I'd argue (and I hope that someone would back me up), that there is no best variant. Since thresh has 3 separate threads, why can't we get 2?

For an optimal/unknown meta, for sure I think there's a best variant: it would just be the variant that can cope with most/all decks best (not having too bad matchups etc.). This is the same with NQG in my book: the Ugr Thrash or Ugr Moon are best for a control/mirror meta but I feel that Ubg or Uwg Balanced Gro are best for an unkown meta: they may not have auto-win matchups but they hardly have bad matchups.

Seriously, this is what I mean by cherry picking. Also WoG isn't better than Deed. It might be better in certain situations, but Deed is better in more.

If the 'certain situations' are just more common than the situations in which Deed is better, than for sure I'd take WoG over Deed all day long.
Let me explain once more.
Pernicious Deed needs you to black black and green. Not bad till now, but then you're either Ubg and don't have access to power like Swords to Plowshares or Humility. You could get away with that though. If you decide to go 4c, you have a horrible manabase and can't implement basics which means that you'll just scoop to way too much in the meta. Also, you might find yourself struggling for the right colors more often than not - especially when you play 6+ colorless lands. Wasteland becomes an issue and can hit you for more tempo than a 2-3 color version.
Against most decks save NQG and other aggro control, you'll have to give them a timewalk to play Deed: you can drop it on one turn but won't be able to pop it the same turn for maximum effect which means that they'll get in for additional damage. Also, Deed is more expensive than WoG in nine cases out of ten: you have to bind your mana for two turns which is something that can be relevant in some matchups.
Pernicious Deed makes you vulnerable to Stifle/Pithing Needle. Call it a nitpick but those two cards are pretty widely played - in the most popular decks of your average metagame (Threshold: NQG[balanced] and Thrash). I wouldn't want to make myself vulnerable to a large proportion of the meta only by playing P.Deed.
Also, when was the last time you really blew up something but creatures? I recon against Affinity (which no-one plays and even if: they're fast enough for nasty Disciple actions to push you into not being able to Deed anyways) or against any Chalice Stompy build. Both not very common and the later likely to not be in your bracket anyways due to inconsistencies. You'll eventually blow up an Enchantment or a lonely Artifact that lies on your path - but you have to ask yourself if this advantage is worth all the inconveniencies you'll have due to Deed as the main stuff you'll kill will be creatures.

With all the matchups that one sides in extirpate dont you feel like as a card it's worth maindecking? I mean what dont you side it in for?

I do have Extirpate in the main - Cunning Wish is nasty tech.
Also, Exitrpate is not in the main because it's a dead card more often than not and doesn't affect the board state immediately (very important reason). Also, it's card dis-advantage which you really don't want.
Often, Extirpate is only boarded in too because you don't have anything better to board in and useless slots main (NQG, combo, control). That and what Osse said.

Berzerked

03-21-2008, 12:06 PM

I've blown up Needle on Factory when I had 2 in play and I suppose they felt heavily pressured.
Counterbalance on numerous occassions - not that it was a huge deal, but it was quite annoying when it was in play.
I could go on with some more, but EE could have handeled any of these situations as well. I like the feel of redundancy, however. Also, and I'm being completely honest, I've never had a huge problem with waiting a turn for Deed. Like I've said earlier, my meta runs very few creatures, most of them being 2cc or smaller. I'm sure if I played against more Goblins it would be relevant.

mossivo1986

03-21-2008, 12:34 PM

I just wanted to take a minute from this tit for tat of a discussion and make a couple of different comments not directly related to building LS but more of talking about the people in this community.

I have really enjoyed learning the do's and don'ts of this deck and to all of you who've helped me thank you.

Der: Although we tend to think alittle bit differently I do think you and Maur. have great minds and excellent play skills. I would trust you with virtually any Ls build you could come up with.

Tacosnape: It seems like the more I see your builds, the increasingly different and diverse they become. To me it feels like you come up with these heavy splash decks that look fantastic on paper atleast. I havent tested the heavy green splash with wish build or the "4 I am Still plains-walkin" build. Sorry it might not be the exact name, but I thought it was cool. You have some of the most innovative strategies that ive ever seen. I really enjoy reading your posts. I may ask some dumb questions but its basicly because i'm just trying to fire out some q's for information to get your brain as well as der's firing on questioning the deck.

Bardo: When I first saw you to be honest it was correcting my grammer and like I said many times I consider this a notepad more then a full out college paper so I kind of fealt like you were attacking me. I also looked at a couple of your builds and tried one and it didn't fit my playstyle. Then when I tried to help the thread by splitting it into 2 groups you took it away before I had a chance to really explain the full reasoning behind it. Then a couple of days ago apparently you wrote an article and I was blown away. I loved how you talked about your "legacy gauntlet decks" and how you go in producing decks. I thought "wow thats crazy cool" and altogether I was astonished at how friendly you actually seemed. Your article is long and I havent had a chance to finish it, but I do look forward to it and I really really like the things you have to say. I hope you don't take offense to this because i'm just trying to explain alittle bit about where im comming from.

landstill101: Apparently you might be banned or something because I havent seen a post or anything from you in a bit since like yeseterday and people were talking about warnings. But you sound to me like your alittle confused and often have ideas mixed up. When I approach something that I have a question about I usually ask it and look stupid for asking, but atleast I dont argue and get warned or w/e ect.

To everyone Else. I really enjoy this place and I really wish we could all get along alittle better. Theres no reason to fight because we feel our ideas are "per say" better then others. If we have a disagreement then lets ask others to help us better the situation.

I appreciate all of your time

-Joel Ferris
"copier of 4c-wish-still"

Bardo

03-21-2008, 01:16 PM

I brought this up a couple of months ago, and without getting a chance to even defend what I said "because they took it out of this thread so quickly" and gave it to mod's who apparently crushed my good idea with their laughter.

"HAHA 1-3 color land stilll and 4 color landstill threads? What a joke, what a noob."

For the most part, we -- the Mods + Adepts -- make decisions on the DTB forum and site policy on a consensus basis. Anyone is welcome to make a suggestion that they feel will strengthen the site, but that doesn't mean we follow-through with every suggestion if there is not support for it at higher levels. Anyway, I took the recommendation to split the Landstill thread into multiple threads to the Adept Lounge and too many thought it was a bad idea, so we didn't do it. I can assure you we did not "crush [your] good idea with laughter."

Bardo: When I first saw you to be honest it was correcting my grammer and like I said many times I consider this a notepad more then a full out college paper so I kind of fealt like you were attacking me.

Grammar and proper usage of the English language is important, and we've taken great pains to reinforce this fact, through our Forum Rules (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7455) and forum moderation.

We expect that people will take the time to form cogent thoughts. To the extent that posts are very poorly written, we crack down on it to increase the value of these forums for everyone else. If I've modded your or anyone else's post(s) about writing skills, it is certainly not a "personal attack" or anything of the sort. It's just what happens when the mod staff is trying to maintain a high level of intelligent discussion.

As for your "Notepad" -> "College Paper" continuum, there is, you know, middle ground.

Then when I tried to help the thread by splitting it into 2 groups you took it away before I had a chance to really explain the full reasoning behind it.

Believe me when I say we understand the issues as we've been down this road many times in the past. Not to be disrespectful, but I doubt you could make an argument for or against thread splits that we haven't considered.

Then a couple of days ago apparently you wrote an article and I was blown away.

Dunno what was "apparent" about it. I didn't have a "ghost writer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_writer)," if that's what you're implying. ;)

landstill101

03-21-2008, 04:00 PM

[QUOTE=mossivo1986;217211]
landstill101: Apparently you might be banned or something because I havent seen a post or anything from you in a bit since like yeseterday and people were talking about warnings. But you sound to me like your alittle confused and often have ideas mixed up. When I approach something that I have a question about I usually ask it and look stupid for asking, but atleast I dont argue and get warned or w/e ect.

QUOTE]

I'm still here, some people do have to work sometimes:tongue: . I also got a full house to clean up for Easter.

If I was banned then my posts would say so and those people who keep saying that I need to get an infraction, say that to anyone who likes goyf.

Don't worry I'm not confused, its just that a couple of people on here have very strong opinions about their decks and feel that they know everything there is to know about magic and don't give decks a chance, (they got a thing against 4c builds) it happens. I have played 4c landstill for about a year and a half now and have tested many things to it and have tested many other landstill like the 2c and 3c versions and have always come back to my 4c build as the best one. But I guess in germany, they get better hands that me.

Bardo, could you mention some of the reasons people turned down the thought of splitting it up, just soo we could talk about it hoping to help pursuade them differently.

Slate

03-23-2008, 02:56 AM

holkenborg

03-23-2008, 04:49 AM

4 Enlightened tutor? I prefer 3 in combination with 2 Moat / Humility. If you play manland in combination with Ajani (a card I don't like, asides..), I suggest play Mutavaults to and Humilities instead of Moat.. Humility has also better synergy with DoJ. You play 2 colors with 8 fetch, so that's a lot.. I suggest 1 more Wasteland and basic plains. Why Nevinyrral's Disk and no WoG or additional E.E.?

Slate

03-23-2008, 05:27 AM

I like the options that running 4 Tutors allows.

I haven't thouroughly tested humililtiy to moat; but i've always liked moat more so i started with it. But i see your point with the DoJ.

Ajani has saved me many games so i think that he merits 1 spot in the main deck.

I like disks, I know that they are slower, but i like to play them and have them sit out there. Not so much as a response to someone playing something board threatening.

I havn't needed wog's and in response to ee, that's why there's 4 tutors.

But yes, I have dropped my pain lands -2 and added a wasteland and a plains. Thanks.

Mossivo showed me his decklist and he had deeds, I'm going to try a few things later, and then i'll post up my list again after i get some results that i think are worth while.

landstill101

03-23-2008, 10:11 AM

I figured I'd post up my deck list and see what you guys think.

// Lands
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [UNH] Island
2 [TE] Wasteland
4 [B] Tundra

// Creatures
1 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
1 [LRW] Jace Beleren
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [IN] Fact or Fiction
1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
2 [B] Nevinyrral's Disk
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
1 [LG] Moat
3 [SC] Stifle
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
1 [TE] Propaganda
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
2 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will

I like the list, it does look interesting, do you have a sideboard for it? Mainly because you have some great choices with this for side. Also if you want to try humility, I would put in the place of 1 propaganda and prob 1 enlightened tutor. Also I would either leave explosives as it is or take it out for another disk or WOG, just because you can only go as high as a 2(which does take out many things in the game) but it doesn't take out a couple of high enchantments and some nice creatures that really hurt you. And definitely stick with no more than 6 fetches, you run a very small amount of mana( my build is one of the lowest and I run 23, most turn about 25.) Since your only 2c, you don';t get mana screwed ever, so I'd definitely at least take out 2 fetches or even 3-4 and add wasteland and 1 more basic, prob a plains, just because of all the chokes, blood moons and back to basics.

Slate

03-23-2008, 10:42 AM

So far i've

-1 delta
-1 strand
+1 Wasteland
+1 Plains

-1 Propoganda
-1 Englightened Tutor
+1 Humility
+1 Fact or fiction

As far as a sideboard goes, I havn't tested thouroughly with one yet, but what i've started out with is the following.

4 Orims Chant
1 Stifle
1 Wasteland
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Cop Red
3 Blue Ele Blast
1 Seal ofCleansing
1 Cop Green

mossivo1986

03-23-2008, 11:21 AM

I personally haven't tested your model of landstill, but I can tell you that when I played u/w I was impressed with humility for multiple reasons.

1: The Timestamp rules. "your mishr'as factory are still 2.2, however I can't remember if they can give +1+! once activated as a creature, or if they can tap for mana, so taco/der do you know?"

2. Laying humility on say Survival game one usually means the game is over "in my testing this is what ive always seen." Where as if you play moat they have a chance to destroy it with say harmonic sliver as a 1of in any given list, nothing specific. Or probobly a better choice would be indrik Stomphowler. Speaking of indrik who was testing them I can't remember. They were testing in coordination with a large wish board for living wish in a heavier green splashed LS.

3. It has massiver synergy with DOJ, which is incredible because your basicly trading card for mana at that point which is massive.

4. if you have moat in play you can still -a- be hit by flyers like tombstalker which is a problem for landstill. B. You cant attack your opponent which is really bad if youve contained the board.

Ironstickman

03-23-2008, 11:39 AM

Hi I'm new in the Source and I'd like to suggest my U/w landstill build which is quite similar to the on posted previously. Here it is:

4 Tundra
4 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
4 mishra's factory
4 Wasteland
1 Academy ruins
1 Seat of the synode
2 island
1 plains

23 lands (yes it is perhaps quite low)

2 Exalted angel

4 Fow
4 Stp
4 Brainstorm
3 enlightened tutor
3 counterbalance
2 Sensei's diving top
1 Crucible of worlds
1 enginnered explosives
1 hoofprints of the stag
2 Counterspell
3 stifle
4 Standstill
2 Wrath of God
1 Moat (I`ll get it soon)

I have also tried the humility-decree strategy and i must say i wasn't really convinced. Ok it may save you in some matchups but i think it is not a powerful card as moat is.

I'd like to comment the synergy between counterbalance- top (as everybody would have noticed) AND the counterbalance + enlightened/ brainstorm which enables you toplace the required card on top of you library.

the hoofprints of the stag slot is just an alternative win condition and i have frequently played seal of cleasing instead

I'm sticking to stifle + wasteland for mana denial and i believe it can give you a lot of advantage in the development of the game

W of God:you really need to kill the goblins quickly and the disk is quite slow for this, (although it kills the vial)

Exalted angel:Sure somebody could discuss this:I prefer the angel instead of eternal dragon because it allows you to attack over e.g a goyf (in the sense that you may not need blockers due to the lifegain). It may aswell be a surprise for the opponent in the fourth turn which he can't handle.

silver bullet Sideboard:

3 Blue elemental blast (Goblins again!)
2 pulse of the fields (you now, burn strategies are quite popular and it is annoying to loose against burn)
1 engineered explosives
1 energy flux
1 tormod's crypt
1 Cop:green
1 Cop:red
3 spell snare (meta choice)
2 Echoing truth (personal choice for Etw)

If you have any suggestions or improvements that could be made i would apreciate them

Slate

03-23-2008, 12:07 PM

mossivo1986

03-23-2008, 12:15 PM

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3649

Its in teh "card interactions" area of the source.

Mental

03-23-2008, 12:16 PM

Slate

03-23-2008, 12:28 PM

The problem with E. Tutor is that it is card disadvantage. Landstill is a deck that seeks to win the long game through attrition wars, not seal the short game quickly with a Moat (which is shit postboard, btw), and E. Tutor counteracts from that goal. I wouldn't run more than 2 at most.

Problem i find with that argument is that tutor allows me to search for the cards that net me that card avantage. Searching for a humility or a disk then getting 1/3 or 1/4 card advantage off of that is good me thinks.

Like you said the deck seeks to win the long game, card disadvantage for 1 turn while you stack your deck with tutor isnt going to flaw your mid late game up. And I like the versatility of running a toolbox card like enlightened tutor. Especially when i board.

with a Moat (which is shit postboard, btw)

Thanks we've gone over that if you read.

Edit: Thanks for the link on humility interactions with manlands. Quick Q tho, are pumps or equipments effected by humility. Such as if i giant growth my llanowar elf with a humility in play will it be a 4/4 or a 1/1? Or equipping SoFI on an elf etc..

Mental

03-23-2008, 12:44 PM

My problem with basing your strategy off gaining CA through Tutor Targets is that postboard you're going to have to deal with a bajillion Krosan Grips, which will invalidate most of your Tutor targets against the tier one decks. Sure, it's good in a jank meta without a lot of Thresh, but Landstill is always good in a jank meta.

Anywho, here's my list as of late:

4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Island
1 Swamp
2 Wasteland
2 Academy Ruins
4 Mishra's Factory

4 Tarmogoyf

4 Force of Will
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Stifle
2 Smother
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Life from the Loam
1 Crucible of Worlds

I've discussed my sideboard on previous pages.

A note on Sensei's Divining Top: Turn 1 Top, Turn 2 Standstill = I win the game. That aside, Top is a great mana sink for a very mana heavy deck. It really smooths draws and lets me consistantly draw answers, however, I wouldn't go past 2 because you aren't as reliant on it as Threshold and double top is just terrible.

holkenborg

03-23-2008, 12:45 PM

I just played a tournament today with 11 people and became 3rd.. Could have been 2nd if I slowplayed last game, but well.. slowplaying is for big tournaments right :) I won't give the entire list (not necessary), just that I played Humilities, Monasteries, Tutors, Jace and Garruk this time. I want to give a tip, because it worked for me today. Against all decks that side in Krosan Grip or other anti-enchantment stuff, just side out the two Humilities for an additional WoG and maybe Spell Snares (had 4 because of the meta). This way your opponent will have more dead cards in his deck, because (except for manland) there are no targets. Maybe someting to think about. I realise you'll probably say something like it forces them to find a solution, but it worked for me.

Hehe.. and I won one game by Jace's decking-ability, sweet..

Mental

03-23-2008, 12:55 PM

So did you played UBGW or UGW Landstill? And if you played UBGW, did you get lucky and not have to deal with a Blood Moon all day?

Tacosnape

03-23-2008, 01:18 PM

A note on Sensei's Divining Top: Turn 1 Top, Turn 2 Standstill = I win the game.

How, exactly?

Mental

03-23-2008, 01:19 PM

How, exactly?

Ok, not actually. But it generates an amount of advantage that's really hard to deal with, or forces them to immediately break standstill.

Other cards I've tested in the Top slots have included Regrowth and FoF.

Adan

03-23-2008, 01:30 PM

Edit: Thanks for the link on humility interactions with manlands. Quick Q tho, are pumps or equipments effected by humility. Such as if i giant growth my llanowar elf with a humility in play will it be a 4/4 or a 1/1? Or equipping SoFI on an elf etc..

Take a look at the "How Humility works"-Thread:

Timestamp only applies if two things happen in the same layer.

Inside layer 6, apply effects in a series of sublayers in the following order:
(6a) effects from characteristic-setting abilities;
(6b) all other effects not specifically applied in 6c, 6d, or 6e;
(6c) changes from counters;
(6d) effects from static abilities that modify power and/or toughness but don't set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value; and
(6e) effects that switch a creature's power and toughness.

Humility happens in 6b, Anthem in 6d.

So the critters will ALWAYS be 2/2.

Well, Swords of Fire and Ice also happens in layer 6d which means that it will make your 1/1 critters 3/3 with the ability to draw a card and deal damage (because it's the Sword's effect that doesn't vanish due to Humility).

Giant Growth also happens in the same layer as Humility, so you have to look at the time stamp:

If you play Giant Growth on Llanowar Elves to make it 4/4 and then play Humility afterwards, it will become 1/1.
if you do it vice-versa, Llanowar becomes a 1/1 (and loses it's mana-ability) and then can be made 4/4 with Giant Growth.

Osse

03-23-2008, 02:04 PM

Slate

03-23-2008, 02:08 PM

Thanks for that.

I got a quick question back on topic of u/w still. How to deal with ichorid combo?

EDIT:

@ Mental - What exactly do you consider tier 1 decks that pack Grips in the board?

Can always fall back on the etutor for a standstill as long as you have the momentum going.

thefreakaccident

03-23-2008, 02:14 PM

moat/prison does the trick just fine :), they usually never get more than 2 lands out (they run ~10-12), so they will only attack with one guy per attack phase, or just not attack at all because they cannot fly :P ...

I use Der's UWb landstill with a cunning wish toolbox, which then enables a semi toolbox for enlightened tutor in the MD (wish for tutor et all), you just run the essentials though, crucible, humility, explosives... The wish is mainly just a utility slot for either: extirpate preboard, artifact distruction, life gain preboard, enlightened tutor if you need it, and extra creature removal.

Adan

03-23-2008, 02:30 PM

Thanks for that.

I got a quick question back on topic of u/w still. How to deal with ichorid combo?

If you are running Moat, manage to survive somehow until you can play it. Then you can win. But otherwise you should accept the 10%-matchup or try it again with some additional Propagandas/Ghostly Prisons. Watch out for Chain of Vapors and Cabal Therapies then.

But Ichorid is one of the worst matchups you can get when playing UW Landstill, the other variants have at least some good solutions in the SB.

Ah, by the way, activating Mishra's Factory (or other manlands) and then destroying it with Wasteland (or burn or whatsoever) is a good way to get rid of Bridge from Below (but it costs you 2 landdrops...).

mossivo1986

03-23-2008, 03:33 PM

Or u just randomy play against the versions with wonder, that could be rough as you cant attack but they can

Nihil Credo

03-23-2008, 03:45 PM

Ok, not actually. But it generates an amount of advantage that's really hard to deal with, or forces them to immediately break standstill.

Quick note - if your opponent does not immediately break a Standstill on an empty board, one of the following is true:

a) They're bad players (great)
b) They have the ability to force you to break your own Standstill (ouch); e.g. Ichorid, 43 Lands, 2C Landstill
c) You have no pressure and a few turns of 'land, go' are more useful to them than to you (blows since they'll likely break the Standstill in your EOT and leave you with 1U: Draw three, discard three, fall back in the board development race); e.g. MUC, Rifter, anything with Eternal Dragon

I got a quick question back on topic of u/w still. How to deal with ichorid combo?

Play the black splash. Game 1 becomes slightly better, but most importantly you now rape them postboard. 4 Meddling Mages, 4 Extirpate, 4 Engineered Plague is simply brutal. In Goblin-short metagames you can even run Propagandas in the side over Engineered Plague, makingt the matchup even more lopsided.

mossivo1986

03-23-2008, 05:15 PM

I've listened for a while on how disk is usefull for LS for the stompy matchup and im testing the list as follows.

/ Lands
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [UNH] Plains
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [B] Tundra
2 [B] Underground Sea
2 [B] Tropical Island
1 [B] Scrubland
1 [B] Savannah
1 [UNH] Island
1 [TE] Wasteland
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins

// Creatures
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
4 [IA] Brainstorm
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
4 [IA] Counterspell
2 [TE] Humility
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [OD] Standstill
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
2 [SC] Stifle
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [IN] Dismantling Blow
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [IN] Fact or Fiction
SB: 1 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 2 [B] Nevinyrral's Disk

I dont know how important it is to have extirpate or Meddling mage early so excuse me if you don't agree with this its simply testing afterall. I really would like to find spots for disk as stompy does pretty much fold to it inless they needle it, which is unlikely in the testing ive done so far. Besides you can still EE for 1 because you have mountains!

I dont like not running Hydroblast in the sb.

Quick couple of questions for Der.

1. Why is seedtime in Wasteland's sb. I thought the idea of seedtime was to catch them off gaurd on your turn and then be able to gain massive tempo. If you seed time via cunning wish dont the percentages on it resolving diminish rapidly? why/why not.

2. Tolaria west. I do like the idea of running it. But I would like to know what the replaced card is. I cant seem to find the list right now and I dont have the time to look for it.

1. Has one random Hydroblast in the model you guys have really helped? I see hydroblast as innefective as you already have dismantly blow/ slaughter pact combination. Is it just an extra against stompy decks? If this were the case id rather use disk as you can recur it if necc. Challice for 1 also REALLY hurts.

mossivo1986

03-24-2008, 07:50 AM

To explain on my previous post on hydroblast.

I don't like the idea of not running the card. It's saved me in numerous matchups and is pretty vital at winning certain matchups outside of cunning wish for pulse which is more chance then Likely.

But in Wasteland's list, I believe an updated model he was using a sb something along these lines:

4 Meddling mage
3 Engineered plague
3 extirpate
1 Hydroblast
1 slaughter pact
1 seedtime
1 dismantling blow
1 Pulse of the fields

I don't know how much I agree with seedtime or 1 of hydroblast. In my testing I almost always grab e-pate or pulse of the fields. Every once in a while ill grab dismantling blow or fact or fiction, but usually games dont go in that direction.

holkenborg

03-24-2008, 09:10 AM

I face the same 'problems' with Cunning Wish too. I have a nice wishboard, but actually always get a Enlightened Tutor or Pulse of the Fields and sometimes Extirpate. The others, Fact or Fiction, Return to Dust, Slaughter Pact I don't really need that often.. That's what makes me question Cunning Wish. On the other hand, a turn 1 Pulse of the Fields can be gamewinning and you can't run them main..

mossivo1986

03-24-2008, 09:14 AM

I think by now i've used all of the wish cards including randomly using hydroblast and extirpates. I think if I was going to drop anything it'd be slaughter pact. I think it's by far the weakest card in the group, and realisticly if your afraid of getting bloodmoon'd then your already screwed at that point because the chances that your going to have black as opposed to blue are unlikely. Besides, I think i'd trade the flexibility of slaughterpact for that sole purpose which very well might be where der and wasteland are comming from.

diffy

03-24-2008, 09:42 AM

I dont know how important it is to have extirpate or Meddling mage early so excuse me if you don't agree with this its simply testing afterall. I really would like to find spots for disk as stompy does pretty much fold to it inless they needle it, which is unlikely in the testing ive done so far. Besides you can still EE for 1 because you have mountains!

Meddling Mage is way too important to cut back. He literally comes in for every non-aggro matchup, is your only tool against combo and makes your control mirror so much better on his own.
Also, I find Nevinyraal's Disk to be way to slow for effective use against Dragon Stompy: if you're going to blow up the board on turn5 (!) they'll either have their Needles (which they would board in anyways because of Deed, I think) or brought you to that low life that you will struggle to stabilize after the Disk activation as you have to handle every single threat they play.
Also, I don't find Blood Moon that threatening any more: you just have to fetch an Island once and then you can Wish for Blue Elemental Blast if need arises. For sure they can have Chalice of the Void, but that's what your Engineered Explosives are for. Also, if they have both a Moon effect and a Chalice, chances are good that they aren't building up pressure so that you actually have a little time to find your solutions.
Overall, I do think that your best weapon against Dragon Stompy still is to stay UWb though :wink: .

I dont like not running Hydroblast in the sb.

I find them pretty weak - not as good as Engineered Plague at least. I do run one to fetch with Cunning Wish in game 1 though (gets boarded in as CWish is too slow in the Goblins matchup).

Why is seedtime in Wasteland's sb. I thought the idea of seedtime was to catch them off gaurd on your turn and then be able to gain massive tempo. If you seed time via cunning wish dont the percentages on it resolving diminish rapidly? why/why not.

I think you're mistaking our newest tech Seed Spark (http://magiccards.info/rav/en/30.html) for Seedtime (http://magiccards.info/ju/en/130.html) here.
I don't know why you'd ever want to play such a narrow card as Seedtime, but Seed Spark is really awesome because it gives you two chump-blockers for the same price as Return to Dust. I know that Return to Dust makes card advantage and can be randomly good because it removes (Modular not triggering, Academy Ruins etc.) but double white isn't the easiest to reach with this version.

Tolaria west. I do like the idea of running it. But I would like to know what the replaced card is. I cant seem to find the list right now and I dont have the time to look for it.

The singleton Tolaria West is my 25th Land, Marius doesn't play it. I basically have another Pernicious Deed and another Land where he has the 2 Stifles.
For refference, here (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2512989&postcount=2)'s my 4c list.

Has one random Hydroblast in the model you guys have really helped? I see hydroblast as innefective as you already have dismantly blow/ slaughter pact combination. Is it just an extra against stompy decks? If this were the case id rather use disk as you can recur it if necc. Challice for 1 also REALLY hurts.

The one random Blue Elemental Blast is used to have something other than Pulse of the Fields to wish for in the Goblins Matchup and to make playing against Blood Moon easier: you only have to fetch an Island once and you're relatively safe whereas with only Dismanling Blow, you won't be safe before having both your basics on the table - which is pretty hard in the 4c Version.
Basically, the one Blue Elemental Blast gives you more flexibility than the 4th Engineered Plague as it is better in other Matchups while still helping in the Matchup it is mainly destinated for (Goblins).

I face the same 'problems' with Cunning Wish too. I have a nice wishboard, but actually always get a Enlightened Tutor or Pulse of the Fields and sometimes Extirpate. The others, Fact or Fiction, Return to Dust, Slaughter Pact I don't really need that often.. That's what makes me question Cunning Wish. On the other hand, a turn 1 Pulse of the Fields can be gamewinning and you can't run them main..

You shouldn't play Fact or Fiction in your Wishboard: Enlightened Tutor is all you need if you're in a neutral/positive board state and want some Card Advantage. You can just get a Humility to produce a lot of Virtual Card Advantage or a Standstill for some real Card Advantage.
The Disenchant slot (Return to Dust, Dismantling Blow, Seed Spark) is a necessary evil in the UWb Version and still good in the 4c Version. Even though in 4c you can kill Artifacts and Enchantments already (which is not the case for UWb where this slot is really needed), it is still great to have more flexilibity and more outs to Pithing Needle on Deed.
Slaughter Pact makes playing against Magus of the Moon so much easier and gives you some more flexibility - although it is the slot I am least comfortable with because the Pact can't kill troublessome guys like Dark Confidant, Shadowmage Inflitrator or Tombstalker. Condemn could be another out but that is no good against Magus of the Moon and is more expensive.

Also, I'd like to stress again that if Cunning Wish makes your bad matchups (read: anything with a recursion engine) better, that is already a valid reason for it to be included. You don't need stuff that makes already good matchups better because that is win more. Just focus on the few bad Matchups you have and work on making those better and you'll have a killer.

Model Sideboard:

4 Meddling Mage
3 Engineered Plague
1 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Extirpate
1 Return to Dust or Dismantling Blow - Seed Spark in 4c
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Slaughter Pact

As you can see, the 'only Wishboard' part of the Sideboard is pretty small (Slaughter Pact, PotF, Disenchant) as all the other cards are frequently boarded in which gives you the a maximum of flexibility.

mossivo1986

03-24-2008, 09:54 AM

Thanx der. You always make me feel alot better when piloting Still. As for Hydro that sounds like a plan. Will ra-add 1 of hydro and test and take out disks. hmmm, meddling mage.

If we are going to up our dependancy on wish we need to add another into the md dont you think? I mean most of your comments implied that you had a wish avalible. I think this is about a 50-50 ratio depending on the reach of your hand and at what point in the game it is.

mossivo1986

03-24-2008, 09:55 AM

BTW is anyone going to indianapolis for the GP in June. I think the side event is legacy. Im just now finishing off this darn deck..
Im still wayy short but who knows.

still need
2 tundra
1 tropical island
2 underground sea
1 scrubland
1 savannah
2 flooded strand
1 polluted delta
4 meddling mage
4 extirpate

diffy

03-24-2008, 10:23 AM

If we are going to up our dependancy on wish we need to add another into the md dont you think? I mean most of your comments implied that you had a wish avalible. I think this is about a 50-50 ratio depending on the reach of your hand and at what point in the game it is.

I don't think that you need three Cunning Wishes in any Landstill variant playing Pernicious Deed: it isn't that essential to you as you have another way to handle problematic Artifacts and Enchantments and 'only' need Cunning Wish to get Extirpate and Pulse of the Fields. Also, it's effect on the curve is not what you want in 4c Landstill which already is more manaintensive and colorintensive than its 3c pendant.

mossivo1986

03-24-2008, 10:37 AM

Hmm. Theoreticly your right, but for consistency I think you'd need one more. But who really cares bleh this deck beats virtually everything with a decent pilot. I think the last game I lost with it was against a survival variant that was heaviliy heavily tuned against control. I didnt see humility or pates and he got around my disruption. Which is really god awefull to say because that doesnt normally happen when I have half decent hands.

Mister Agent

03-24-2008, 03:55 PM

I don't think you really need the nevin's disks in the board because outside of the moonthresh and dragon stompy matchup pernicious deeds will do just fine. Besides if you have alot of blood moon matchups mean as well play DIF's UWb Landstill list since it also has good matchups against just about everything else.

Ironstickman

03-24-2008, 04:33 PM

The problem with E. Tutor is that it is card disadvantage. Landstill is a deck that seeks to win the long game through attrition wars, not seal the short game quickly with a Moat (which is shit postboard, btw), and E. Tutor counteracts from that goal. I wouldn't run more than 2 at most.

I see your point in that e.tutor creates card disadvantage but there are many situations where the quality you get from the tutor pays for the draw loss at different stages of the game:
e.g
you can fetch standstill once the board is clear at the end of opponent's turn-- creating card advantage from the initial drawback
searching explosives/seal of cleasing in response to oponents chalice/moon/vial.
searching the components of the counterbalance lock (notice top will create more card quality)
or having access to crucible for recurring wastelands if the opp is low on mana.

+ the sideboard options which can turn the match-up completely in your favor

the versatility of tutor is often worth the disadvantege it creates. Moreover, landstill is the deck that is capable to support this type of card since it is able of creating card advantage trhough the standstill and cantrips

Mental

03-25-2008, 12:11 AM

In your experiance, does Counterbalance work in Landstill? I think not. You run too many lands.

from Cairo

03-25-2008, 01:28 AM

I see your point in that e.tutor creates card disadvantage but there are many situations where the quality you get from the tutor pays for the draw loss at different stages of the game

Agreed.

I was skeptical of E Tutor as a wish target, but it really is very solid. It's another wish target answer. It allows you to grab Humility in a pinch, which is really the game plan vs alot of the field. 2 Humility and 2 Wish gives you 4 cards you can draw that can set up Humility either that turn or the following in the case of Wish>Tutor>Humility. Grabbing an Engineered Explosives, a Standstill or Crucible can also be clutch, though much less often than Humility.

I've been playing around with a modified version of D I F's build and have been very pleased. For reference:

Lands 25
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Island
3 Plains
2 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
2 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins

Spells 35
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Standstill
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Cunning Wish
2 Wrath of God
2 Humility
2 Decree of Justice
1 Crucible of Worlds

Sideboard 15
4 Extirpate
4 Meddling Mage
3 Engineered Plague
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Dismantilling Blow/Return to Dust

To preemptively head off the question of 3 Plains, I think that Basic Plains is pretty huge to this shell as hitting Humility / Wrath turn 4 is often gigantic. Also Basic Island, Basic Plains, non-basic allows for EE@3 against Magus of Moon and Blood Moon, MA has a fairly large amount of Dragon Stompy in the meta. Being Basic heavy also helps versus Goblins that have been making a pretty big come back in the area.

Ironstickman

03-25-2008, 05:17 AM

In your experiance, does Counterbalance work in Landstill? I think not. You run too many lands.

well, yes that's why I was trying a build low on mana compared with other landstill decks (23 lands)
the main problem running counterbalance in landstill decks is that your mana costs are usually higher. Therefore I tried to reduce the cost of the spells to one or two. (taking out fact or fiction,disks,ak.vengeance, decrees, humility and other heavy stuff)
the library manipulation through top /brainstorm/ tutor (+ fethcland shuffle) once the counterbalance is in play I have found to be effective enough.

the counterbalance-top lock gives massive advantage against threshold, eva green, burn, RG goyf, mirror, deadguy and ends combo matchups . whereas in matchups like goblins,dragon stompy or white stax doesn`t really shine.

So is counterbalance good in landstill? depends in what you're playing against.
Is landstill capable of supporting counterbalance? yes but with important modifications from the original U/W build.

mossivo1986

03-25-2008, 09:41 AM

What about a 1 of mystical tutor as a 1 of in the sb for random LFTL or swords or counterspell or force or w.e
it'd improve all of your matchups.

Adan

03-25-2008, 05:16 PM

In your experiance, does Counterbalance work in Landstill? I think not. You run too many lands.

Maybe, but Counterbalance allows you to lockdown your opponent under Moat (Zvi's version) or Humility (better IMO. And easier to afford.).

Counterbalance is the reason why those "clunky" versions like Zvi's build with 4 E-Tutors can still compete with the field since the disadvantage of E.Tutor is compensated by Standstills/Balance-Engine.

Notice that this is again nearly the same concept like in Baseruption, ayB's NQS and UR Landstill: We take Carddisadvantage to gain speed/flexibility and then we compensate it afterwars with Standstill/Balance/Shadowmages/Confidants/Survivalengine/whatsoever.

Your argument of running tons of lands might be right, but when running 4 E-Tutors, 4 Counterbalances and 4 Sensei's Divining Tops, the odds are very high that you can get a Counterbalance online, turning your 4 Brainstorms and 4 Enlightened Tutor into hardcounters.

Though I don't really like his build like it is, Zvi Mowshowitz himself played a 7-1 record afaik at the Worlds. That Ch@os guy here also plays that style of landstills and also T8ed in iserlohn several times I think. Maybe I'm just getting him wrong with someone, but I'm quite sure it's him. I played it once against Clemens and got defeated by Siege Gang Commander. Since then I would always play Humility over Moat and include Decree of Justice.

Ch@os

03-26-2008, 08:08 AM

That Ch@os guy here also plays that style of landstills and also T8ed in iserlohn several times I think. Maybe I'm just getting him wrong with someone, but I'm quite sure it's him.

:wink:, mostly "Dülmen" but yeah i T8 with this Deck.

And it's exactly like you guys have mentioned, CA is not such a big thing when you can search for Moat/Humility eot. Or fix the lack of one CB&T combo piece. Lategame E-Tutor functions as an really good hardcounter Counter for CC1,2,3,4.

And the Tutor-SB works also for me, but the whole Deck is a little bit different from the usually landstill playstyle, but give it a try.

Peter_Rotten

03-26-2008, 08:39 AM

It's a little late now for a warning now, but this thread is (or at least was) an eyesore. A few pages back, there are some flames; we have members not using simple typing conventions like the SHIFT KEY; and we have been getting complaints about the general lack of direction of this thread.

I have opened a suggestion thread for what to do with Landstill discussion. (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=218346#post218346) We would like to here your thoughts on how to better address all the variants of Landstill.

In the meantime, this thread is watched.

slaiter

03-26-2008, 12:40 PM

Hi

I need help with my 4c Landstill

My metagame is:
-********
-UBg(Confidant, goyf, trinket, dreadnought)
-Burn(lol!)
-Goblin
-Iggy Pop
-Dragon Stompy
-2 Land Belcher

My list is:
//Lands
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical island
2 Tundra
1 Plains
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Nantuko Monastery
1 Faerie Conclave
1 Treetop Village
//24

//Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Fact of Fiction
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Stifle
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Innocent Blood
2 Disenchant / Nevinyrrals disk / Engineered Explosives
2 Crucible of Worlds
//36

//Side
4 Duress
4 Chill
3 Engineered Plague
3 Extirpate
1 Hydroblast

Suggestions?

thx

Tacosnape

03-26-2008, 01:10 PM

There's no reason to run Wasteland in that metagame. There's really no reason to run Wasteland in 4C period, but especially not when nothing else you listed runs a manland. And your manabase is atrocious.

If you keep the basic Plains, which isn't an awful idea anymore, Seal of Cleansing >> Disenchant/Disk/Explosives. Seal will come out pre-emptively to hit Blood Moon in DS and Counterbalance in Threshold. It'll take down Dreadnought in that UBG list, Vial against Goblins, and it might even steal you a game against Belcher if you're lucky, though on the whole EE's stronger against Belcher.

Innocent Blood is bad, also. Diabolic Edict is better. Edict dodges Chalice for 1, which will make huge differences against Dragon Stompy. Also, despite the fact you might think Blood's better against Goblins for stopping a Lackey, it isn't. Edict's ability to stop a hasted Warchief assault makes it stronger against Goblins. Edict also lets you clear a threat EOT to give you a clear board to drop a Standstill.

As for your sideboard, ditch Duress and ditch Chill. Running 4 Blue Elemental Blasts will help you against Goblins, Burn, Belcher, and Dragon Stompy, and a couple of Circle of Protection: Red will help you against all of those except Belcher. Meddling Mage will help you greatly against IGGY and Belcher, also.

darkalucard

03-26-2008, 01:49 PM

Osse

03-26-2008, 02:03 PM

Tacosnape

03-26-2008, 02:10 PM

I must suck at playing Landstill but somebody at least explain this:

How can you avoid mulliganing allot when you play 6-10 colorless lands and 3-4 colors?
I cannot understand how this deck beats a deck like Goblins which runs 7x Land Hate. It is hard to hit 3-4 mana before dying. Or win without Plauge.
Exactlly how does this deck apply pressure enough to beat combo?
How does this deck not draw out rounds repeatably?

1. By playing 6 and not 10. And by running at least 18 blue sources (Counting Fetchlands) and cards like Brainstorm to fix opening hands. It also helps to have builds that rely heavily on blue and less on the splash colors.

2. As for the land hate, most Goblin decks now run a maximum of 6, and a few run as few as four. Stifle will help stop Wasteland, which isn't all that dangerous, but Port's a bitch you'll just have to deal with. Once you've stopped the land hate, you simply out card-advantage them. Counter turn 1-2 Vials, Counter/Stifle Matrons/Ringleaders, and rely on your STP/Edict/Deed/Whatever Else to remove Lackeys/Piledrivers/Chiefs/Siege-Gangs. Then outdraw them with Standstill + Jace/FoF/Whatever. Postboard, Plague helps, as does Blue Elemental Blast. Builds running Humility will find Goblins even easier.

3. What makes you think the deck -needs- to apply pressure to beat combo? If you stop the first, fast onslaught, then you have superior draw and disruption elements to make the midgame in your favor as well. Then you can kill off the opponent at your leisure. Builds with Tarmogoyf attempt to fix this non-problem, but they often sacrifice the disruption that stops the combo in the first place to do it. Meddling Mage in sideboard is excellent at boosting your tempo while shutting down the card of your choice, freeing up your other spells to handle anything else.

4. Experience playing the deck allows you to make quicker correct decisions with ease, and it doesn't hurt to have judges around to watch opponents for slow play, either. Drawing can happen, though. The irritating sanctioned Tie that differentiates my win streak from my not-loss streak came from playing 4C Landstill against Train Wreck, though we still managed to finish two games.

mossivo1986

03-26-2008, 03:23 PM

I think it would be easier to explain after he played a few matches with the deck.

darkalucard

03-26-2008, 04:04 PM

I think it would be easier to explain after he played a few matches with the deck.
If your refurring to me I played this deck in tournaments Saturday and Sunday doing well with prizes but still upset with the deck.

1. I aggree that you should play 6 colorless sources max.

2.
I understand, I guess my opponents just have draw allot of Wastelands and Ports and I got unlucky drawing lands. And I agree to beat Goblins you need something more permenant like Humility and Plague, sometimes they can survive from multiple board sweeps and you can't draw into standstills.

My main point though, was what do you do against these sort of decks? (With Wastelands etc) Is it basically is pretty bad for me but I'm going to do my best playing around it Stifling and Countering?

3.
In my experiece you need to put a clock on combo or you will let them draw back into there combo after you disrupted it already. Control decks problem is that it doesnt have a clock and lets there opponent outdraw them by giving them to much time. I guess what everyone is saying is that Standstill and other cards give Landstill so much card advantage that you will overwhelm them with answers to there threats?

I think Tarmogoyf is worth a try in this deck:

A. It puts the opponent on a clock.

(Allows faster wins after gaining control. Also allows you to apply pressure without tapping all your lands to attack with Factory's)

B. Makes the deck less dependant on man-lands.

(If Man-Lands get extirpated, what will you do? I just seems that with control decks, there win conditions are there weakness.)

C. Allows the deck to switch roles faster. Is Flexable.

(He holds the ground and can stop a horde from attacking, usually forcing them to play more guys before attacking leaving them overcomitting more than they normallly would for your board sweepers. He's like multiple Fogs that can trade for multiple creatures with the option of attacking. Once you get control, you can just start turning this guy sideways and you will win allot faster than normally.)

etc.

Berzerked

03-26-2008, 04:27 PM

OMG a new guy who hasn't even tested Goyf, but has the common sense enough to predict what he's useful for. And everything he mentioned is exactly what he's useful for.

@darkalucard: Goyf is exactly what you mentioned he would be. There is currently a huge, flame-filled, discussion going on whether Goyf is good in Landstill or not. Since you seem to have a clean slate, please test Goyf and let us know of your findings. Here's a list for reference (my list):

4 Mishra's Factory
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
2 Nantuko Monastery
1 Island

4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Standstill
3 Fact of Fiction
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Engineered explosives

2 Flex Slot (Stifle/Spell Snare, Smother/Diabolic Edict, anything esle you could want) Currently I'm using LftL and Quagnoth there.

mossivo1986

03-26-2008, 04:28 PM

"My main point though, was what do you do against these sort of decks? (With Wastelands etc) Is it basically is pretty bad for me but I'm going to do my best playing around it Stifling and Countering?"

First off your gameplan usually varies per matchup but I can give you some pretty sound advice. Your lands are the most important part of the deck. If you have your landbase built the chances your losing are incredibly low besides for massive mana flood. Realisticly your winning if your land is continuously dropping.

darkalucard

03-26-2008, 04:50 PM

I've done various sorts of testing mainly on GWB Rock and Magic Theory...

But, I'm beginning to realize why this thread has gotten out of hand. There are these card choices like Tarmogoyf that everyone is extensively arguing about and nobody can come to a conclusion on. Maybe they should make threads just for these arguments?

BTW I hope to keep a clean slate in reputation...

Berzerked

03-26-2008, 05:00 PM

The problem is, I'm sure, that most people refuse to test him or don't have a proper testing environment, and just dismiss him because he can be blown up by your own Deed (which almost never happens, by the way), or that "Landstill isn't supposed to play creatures"...which is an equally absurd reason to dismiss him.
The fact is, that in Landstill, Goyf is a very flexible utility creature that helps in many more scenarios than a single card should. People need to break away from conventions and test him out for themselves. For the people who actually have tested him and still prefer not to play him, I guess it's a different play style.
That being said, hopefully everything will be cleared up when the thread splits, and maybe my reputation can move away from Goyf-loving-asshole to just Goyf-lover.

Tacosnape

03-26-2008, 05:15 PM

2.
I understand, I guess my opponents just have draw allot of Wastelands and Ports and I got unlucky drawing lands. And I agree to beat Goblins you need something more permenant like Humility and Plague, sometimes they can survive from multiple board sweeps and you can't draw into standstills.

My main point though, was what do you do against these sort of decks? (With Wastelands etc) Is it basically is pretty bad for me but I'm going to do my best playing around it Stifling and Countering?

I can't really say. Perhaps it's because I'm way more experienced with the deck than most people, but I've won my last six matches straight against Goblins with 4C Landstill, dropping only two (Maybe three, memory is foggy) games in that span. I don't run Humility, and I generally run 3 Plague and 4 Blue Elemental Blast in sideboard (And, on a couple occasions, I've run COP: Red as a metagame call.) I just haven't ever found Goblins to be a problematic match unless they run four Ports. And I've seen a lot of people pick up my deck and get stomped by Goblins due to bad choices.

3.
In my experiece you need to put a clock on combo or you will let them draw back into there combo after you disrupted it already.

And how exactly are you not going to draw into more disruption during this time considering that's all your deck is? I've beaten Belcher after they went through three separate attempts to combo off.

I think Tarmogoyf is worth a try in this deck:

A. It puts the opponent on a clock.

(Allows faster wins after gaining control. Also allows you to apply pressure without tapping all your lands to attack with Factory's)

After you've gained control, why do you need a faster win? You generally aren't going to lose control again unless your deck is diluted with bad control cards like, say, Tarmogoyf.

B. Makes the deck less dependant on man-lands.

(If Man-Lands get extirpated, what will you do? I just seems that with control decks, there win conditions are there weakness.)

Win with Jace Beleren (This is exactly why I run him over FoF), Crime//Punishment (Easy to win with once Jace has you with a full hand to your opponent's empty), or Meddling Mage. Alternately, don't swing with your manlands until you have enough control to protect them. Alternately still, Extirpate their Extirpates before they can get more than one thing.

C. Allows the deck to switch roles faster.

Why would I want to do that? I'm the control deck, period.