[ATW] Landstill

[Berzerked]

And how exactly are you not going to draw into more disruption during this time considering that's all your deck is? I've beaten Belcher after they went through three separate attempts to combo off.
Agreed, mostly because Belcher is a pushover when your opening hand has FoW. TES on the other hand, is the problem. If you manage to stop the first onslaught, they still get to draw into Chant/Abeyance which completely screw you over, and Dark Confidant to out-CA you. Against TES, I find Goyf absolutely invaluable (yes, coupled with Stifle, so it's finally understood that I know that Stifle beats storm.)


After you've gained control, why do you need a faster win? You generally aren't going to lose control again unless your deck is diluted with bad control cards like, say, Tarmogoyf.
Because when I play against a deck that happens to have as many answers as I do threats, and about as many threats as I do answers, I tend to be the one to deck. Goyf stops this from happening. I don't like spending 30min on the first game either.
Also, I guess this doesn't apply to you (read infallible), but in a tourney, under high stress, players tend to make plenty of mistakes. Goyf initiates this stress, especially if the opponent doesn't have an immediate answer, and usually makes him make less than great plays to rush and get rid of him. Obviously, you can never count on your opponent making a mistake, but I've seen it plenty of times, so it must be taken into consideration. (Kind of like how Meddling Mage is a great card, but that doesn't take into account players lack of common sense when chanting.)


Why would I want to do that? I'm the control deck, period.
I don't like this comment. My favorite thing about Landstill is that it is continuously the ultimate control deck. However, after adopting Goyf, I can't get enough of the instant switch to AggroControl and the ridiculous plays that he allows that let you win within the next 3-4 turns.

Again, maybe it's just a different play style, but don't go dismissing Goyf as a "bad control card" just because of this. If used in the right way, he's an amazingly flexible control card.

[Mental]

Fact: Tarmogoyf helps Control decks (or Mid Range Control) more than it helps Aggro decks.

[snip] Verbal Warning to you for flaming. Attack ideas, not people. - Bardo

Berzerked, you're 4c Landstill list is pretty interesting. How does it do under a Blood Moon with only 1 basic Island?

I've noticed a few things about Goyf:
When I am up against something like 43 Lands, Goyf's ability to just go the distance if I have them locked out of LFTL is incredibly helpful. Without it, I would draw every game against them.
Goyf is also incredibly strong against a deck like Counterslivers, where, if I don't have a guy that's bigger than their guys, they'll just infinitely Hibernation Sliver and kill my manlands.
This decks ability to go Goyf, Standstill, Go, is absolutely ridiculous. That there just says "I win" like nothing else Landstill can do.
Landstill often generates advantage after clearing an opponents board with Deed/EE. It's nice to be able to win before they can rebuild.

[from Cairo]

Goyf is also incredibly strong against a deck like Counterslivers, where, if I don't have a guy that's bigger than their guys, they'll just infinitely Hibernation Sliver and kill my manlands.

Isn't this match up pretty much a joke. The entire basis of Slivers is playing out multiple underwhelming guys that are only decent if you over commit to the board. A lone Crystalline or Muscle loses to Mishra's Factory, once they drop 2-3 guys then Wrath/Deed, or EE@2 their board and drop a Standstill, rinse and repeat. Hibernation is really the only one you even need to counter to keep them from reusing threats.

Goyf seem completely win more.

Academy Ruins + EE@2 = GG
post board, Humility + Engineered Plague = GG


This decks ability to go Goyf, Standstill, Go, is absolutely ridiculous. That there just says "I win" like nothing else Landstill can do.

Mishra's Factory under a Standstill presents the same situation. They both say I draw 3 cards cause you have to answer me. Yes Goyf wins the game in 4-5 turns if it goes unanswered, but if it goes unanswered you were going to win the game regardless.


Landstill often generates advantage after clearing an opponents board with Deed/EE. It's nice to be able to win before they can rebuild.

It might be "nice" but at the cost of 4 maindeck spots it is win-more. If you kill their board then throw in some Mishra beats, then 3 turns later they've rebuilt and you clear their board and throw in some Mishra beats again, you have the same inevitability as you would with Tarmogoyf.

[mossivo1986]

I guess when I look at decks now thanx to tacosnape I really just look at whats going to be effective against me. I know you should do that normally but situations do arise where something is good and normally its not.

But as an example meat-hooks "countersliver" whoever said hibernation sliver, was completely right. That and an excesive ammount of stifles/dazes "hand disruption." can be pretty effective. But if your playing carefully and not foolishly you should be fine. They really can never get that far ahead of you "depending on which model you run of landstill"

In testing with 4c they have virtually no chance to get that far ahead inless you take a really god awefull hand.

Be on latr! :) Peaches!

"Viva La Revolution!"

[Mental]

Meathooks isn't an easy MU by any stretch of the imagination, and I run 7 Deed Effects. I mean, ok, it is, but you're kinda fucked if they can stick a Hibernation Sliver. Unless you have Goyf.

[Hanni]

Meathooks isn't an easy MU by any stretch of the imagination, and I run 7 Deed Effects. I mean, ok, it is, but you're kinda fucked if they can stick a Hibernation Sliver. Unless you have Goyf.

This is hilarious. Meathooks worst matchup is Landstill. Even with Hibernation Sliver. I like Counterslivers... but I guarantee you that even the creators are gonna say the same thing, Goyf or no Goyf.

[thefreakaccident]

If you are loosing to counter sliver with landstill, then you are playing the deck incorrectly, simply put.

[Mister Agent]

If you are loosing to counter sliver with landstill, then you are playing the deck incorrectly, simply put.

Which is one of the main reasons why I like Dif's uwb landstill. Running humility is such a huge utility spell in today's metagame. Especially since the metagame I believe is shifting to more of an aggro, aggro-control, and pure control environment. I could be totally wrong though.

[Slate]

Aggro / Aggro conrol / Control is 3/4 of magic arch-types. You're only missing combo.

Not much of a shift if you ask me ^^.

[mossivo1986]

Why because suicide isnt viable anymore in a format where the cards are just too powerfull the format warps alittle bit towards control?

Has ANYONE tested Anscestral visions? It's kind of a slow standstill, but It works.

Also, Does anyone know if there is a side event for legacy at GP Indi? I've heard there is but I dont know where to find any details. Let me know if you know.

[Mister Agent]

Aggro / Aggro conrol / Control is 3/4 of magic arch-types. You're only missing combo.

Not much of a shift if you ask me ^^.

The only reason why I am missing combo is because dedicated threshold decks tends to push out any combo deck out of the metagame. I also didn't say it was that much of a shift really but it's still a shift. But that should be of no surprise really because Threshold is one of the main reasons for this shift in the meta hence why it's the best deck in the format.

I actually have not heard of a side event for legacy at GP but as for Ancestral Visions I think it should be tested at least. However right now I think Fact or fiction and even a copy of Jace works fine in my book considering they can pretty much do the samething as Ancestral visions especially down the stretch. The thing I like about Jace though is Jace can prevent those one for one trade offs in any matchup.

[mossivo1986]

I dont see jace being good in 4c though, and I dont see thresh as the best deck in the format either but thats just personal.


And it's not that i'm being "blind" by how many people are playing the deck, but I think it takes a special thresh player to compete with a solid landstill player. I havent meet that thresh player yet.

[FredMaster]

@ Wannabe-Recall:
I don't think this is too much of a good choice, because you won't be able to drop a smart Standstill for 4 Turns. Additionally it just sucks in the lategame.

[mossivo1986]

Your not looking at it from the other perspective. You are able to keep control of the board as it's unsuspending unlike standstill that basicly taps you out in the early game. If they counter it, it was basicly nothing for you to invest in, if they dont then its 3 cards plus your draw phase. You obviously dont need standstill in this kind of a situation, and Asside from nix I dont see a real effective way to stop this, which probobly wont happen. Maybe late game its not the best, so put it in 2 slots instead of four. Bleh what do you want from me, i was just giving ideas.

[Adan]

Meathooks isn't an easy MU by any stretch of the imagination, and I run 7 Deed Effects. I mean, ok, it is, but you're kinda fucked if they can stick a Hibernation Sliver. Unless you have Goyf.

This is hilarious. Meathooks worst matchup is Landstill. Even with Hibernation Sliver. I like Counterslivers... but I guarantee you that even the creators are gonna say the same thing, Goyf or no Goyf.


If you are loosing to counter sliver with landstill, then you are playing the deck incorrectly, simply put.

How unfortunate that this is too big for being sigged.


And it's not that i'm being "blind" by how many people are playing the deck, but I think it takes a special thresh player to compete with a solid landstill player. I havent meet that thresh player yet.

That might be because Landstill is one of the hardest matchups which can't be won without a ridiculous god-draw.
I'd say that Landstill is by far the worst matchup after Ichorid you can get when playing Thresh.

The problem is that none of your threats can really harm Landstill. They just run too much spotremovals, taking down everything but Mongeese.
But Mongeese can be handled with Explosives, Deeds, Wrath of God, Mishra's Factory...

The 4color build might also run Crime//Punishment which hurts you a lot and maybe even Haunting Echoes (I played it as a 1of instead of Quagnoth).

And well, overextending is a bad play. This is toe most difficult thing, you need an aggressive start to prevent the opponent to utilize Standstill as carddraw, but you have to watch out for sweepers at the same time (again: they have a LOT of them).

[Berzerked]

Wow, just when I thought this thread was whoever felt lake backing/bashing Goyf...


maybe even Haunting Echoes (I played it as a 1of instead of Quagnoth)

I'm going to try that for sure. Echoes beats the matchups I wanted Quagnoth take home anyway, sans the "uncounterable" and ability to block. I'll test the trade-offs.

[mossivo1986]

Why isnt regrowth used in legacy. I dont see it in the banned list.

[Tacosnape]

Why isnt regrowth used in legacy. I dont see it in the banned list.

I don't know about Legacy (I personally say it's an incredibly underrated card), but it's not used in Landstill because it's at its best late game and sucks in the early game, and Landstill tends to win if it gets to the late game anyway and lose if can't get a fast advantage in the early game. It's not an auto-exclude, though, and would definitely have its uses.

[Bardo]

Why isnt regrowth used in legacy. I dont see it in the banned list.

In Legacy, Regrowth is too fair of a card--it's not like it's going to buy you Ancestral back, probably just some utility spell. Regrowth is also pretty crappy in the early game and competes for card drawing slots, which are useful in the early game.

But other Regrowth-like cards are fairly popular, since they can be broken in the right shell (ex. Genesis and Survival of the Fittest with Eternal Witness or Leyline of the Void with Ill-Gotten Gains, etc.)

[xsockmonkeyx]

I don't know about Legacy (I personally say it's an incredibly underrated card), but it's not used in Landstill because it's at its best late game and sucks in the early game, and Landstill tends to win if it gets to the late game anyway and lose if can't get a fast advantage in the early game. It's not an auto-exclude, though, and would definitely have its uses.

It's really not that terrible in the mid game, however. STP, Regrowth, STP has won me games. Regrowth on a Fetchland isnt terrible if you need to grow your mana. It is a card that is best served in multiples of 2-3 though.

I used to play a UWg Landstill deck with Regrowths, and it was a surprisingly good addition. Thing about Regrowth is that when you do cast it in the late game it is usually backbreaking. You can grab whatever kind of card you want/need out of your graveyard - STP, WOG, Standstill, Humility, Deed, Force, EE, manland, Goyf, whatever - regardless of card type. Also, flipping over a Regrowth when casting Fact or Fiction is hilarious. Let's see you split them cards up now, sucker.

@Sliver debate: Hibernation Sliver improves the Landstill matchup, but by no means it it a positive matchup for slivers. They pack all the cards you dont like to see: Deed, Wrath, EE, Humility. It's like the hate-on-sliver archetype.

[Mister Agent]

And it's not that i'm being "blind" by how many people are playing the deck, but I think it takes a special thresh player to compete with a solid landstill player. I havent meet that thresh player yet.

Well I know you have played against me before when I was using Tempo Threshold and you have won against me more then half of the time. However since I am much more of an control player at heart I tend to play threshold subpar. But this comes from the fact that I hardly play any other deck but pure control decks mind you even though that can change. Threshold decks takes experience and a ton of play skill to play it optimally at a consistent basis. In other words, if you think threshold takes minimal skill then you do not have what it takes to top 8 with it at big events.

I also agree with both Bardo and Tacosnape here regrowth can often be a dead slot earlier in the game since it does not bring that much versatility/utility at all and in the late game you should be able to win regardless. In this case I'd rather have enlightened tutor in hand instead at least E. tutor's role does not change that much in a course of games generally.

[Aggro_zombies]

I should chime in here to say that I tested Regrowth for a while in a Uwg list and while I liked it I found it to be very narrow. For clarification: the best application for Regrowth is getting back bombs, but Landstill doesn't run that many bombs. Regrowth on Standstill can be devastating, sure, but I stopped using Standstill ages ago in favor of first Ancestral Visions and then (when I realized how much that card also sucked) Meditate. Regrowth on Force of Will is ho-hum except against combo or perhaps another control deck. Regrowth on Goyf is also ho-hum, especially if you're trying to use EE+Ruins lock (a total blowout combination, 10/10, would recommend for any Landstill list). Regrowth on Swords is also decent. Beyond that, there's not much Regrowth does. Getting back lands? You already run Crucible. Artifacts? Academy Ruins is infinitely better. Cards like Brainstorm and Counterspell often aren't worth it. Deed is also nasty to recur but I never really like Regrowth in Ugb Landstill.

I'll also put up a list, at the risk of being laughed out of the thread. This is what I want to begin testing and is the latest result of my work on various builds of Landstill.

"Orange Juice"

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish
3 Meditate

4 Counterspell
2 Prohibit *
4 Force of Will

3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Condemn
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Porphyry Nodes *

2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Hoofprints of the Stag


4 Mishra's Factory
2 Academy Ruins
4 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
2 Hallowed Fountain
3 Island
1 Plains
4 Flooded Strand

SB:
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Tormod's Crypt
4 Meddling Mage *
3 Stifle
1 Meditate
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Dismantling Blow *
1 Pulse of the Fields

Cards marked with an asterisk are metagame calls. Porphyry Nodes is surprisingly good against Threshold, and I feel from testing that Prohibit is better than Spell Snare about 90% of the time. Mage is an open slot, but I have it there for Loam-based decks. Blow could be Return to Dust, but it costs :1: less and I can draw two with it later in the game should I so desire. Also, it costs only a single :w:.

Tell me to go into green for Goyf and I'll fucking kill you. :)

EDIT: The Fountains could be Wastelands, but I haven't tested that yet.

[raharu]

Have you thought of splashing Black? It gives you access to Extripate and all of the other disruptive goodies Black has to offer (and Extirpate in the wishboard meansyou don't have to wait until G2 to fight LftL). While it's annoying to cast (BB ftl), Tombstalker offers a clock that can hit the board early if needed and closes the game in a rapid fashion. Maybe some Smother to replace Condemn (though I wonder what your reasoning behind not running the full set of StP is. Exterpate running rampant in Berkeley?). Also, you get more fetchlands for Brainstorm (how have 4 fetchies been working for this? Have you been forced to use Ponder to shuffle a good bit?).

[from Cairo]

Have you tried pairing Hoofprints of the Stag with Moat since the two have pretty solid synergy, like no one attacks on the ground and you own the sky with 4/4 Elementals. I had been playtesting around a bit with it, but ultimately ended up like Humility and Decree's synergy with manlands, as its more powerful.

[Aggro_zombies]

Have you thought of splashing Black? It gives you access to Extripate and all of the other disruptive goodies Black has to offer (and Extirpate in the wishboard meansyou don't have to wait until G2 to fight LftL). While it's annoying to cast (BB ftl), Tombstalker offers a clock that can hit the board early if needed and closes the game in a rapid fashion. Maybe some Smother to replace Condemn (though I wonder what your reasoning behind not running the full set of StP is. Exterpate running rampant in Berkeley?). Also, you get more fetchlands for Brainstorm (how have 4 fetchies been working for this? Have you been forced to use Ponder to shuffle a good bit?).
I do run a full set of Swords, but one is in the wishboard in case I need it. I essentially have access to six maindeck Swords, and a pseudo-Swords in Condemn.

I'm actually thinking about black, but it would be a very light black splash. Basically I would want Vindicate, Smother, and an Extirpate in the sideboard...one other thing I could try would be Bob plus Top, since Bob is stupid good and I run Pulse of the Fields in case something goes wrong. I'm not tremendously keen on Tombstalker, but going into black would give me the perfect excuse to run Wydwen, the Biting Gale. :wink:

EDIT: Moat didn't occur to me, probably because I don't have any.

EDIT 2: One other thing that crossed my mind. I could reconfigure the land base to let me run Tolaria West, then run 1 Wasteland, 1 Academy Ruins, 1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale. Of course, it can still get me EE and Crypts. The problem is that it sucks except as a tutor.

[raharu]

It's a little slow as a tutor, although the Academy Ruins + EE synergy is nice. I think with all of the draw you run, you wouldn't really need the tutoring though.

EDIT: Wydwen, the Biting Gale looks kinda decent. I don't like the fact that it's a 3/3, but it's pretty annoying to deal with, so it's more resilient, and it doesn't mean you have to get BB, which is really nice as well.

[Aggro_zombies]

EDIT: Wydwen, the Biting Gale looks kinda decent. I don't like the fact that it's a 3/3, but it's pretty annoying to deal with, so it's more resilient, and it doesn't mean you have to get BB, which is really nice as well.
The Wydwen thing is a joke. When my friends in Berkeley who read this site see that, they'll groan and facepalm.

On another note, has anyone ever thought of trying Tangle Wire? I'm a little leery about skipping turns in a format where a two drop can halve your life total or worse in that amount of time. Tangle Wire slows you down a bit but puts some big brakes on your opponents. Also, Wire + Ruins = fun.

[raharu]

But tapping down lands seems like a bad thing. When you play it early, they'll probably play threats before it comes down, then tap down lands and eat face while your mana is tapped down from wire, so you can't respond. The problem is that Landstill doesn't want to have any permanants outside lands on the board, and it want to have it's lands untapped to respond to shit and stuff.

On a side note, Wydwen doesn't look that terrible in your deck. Fer serios. I just think that TS might be better if you ran black.

[Tacosnape]

Another 1st Place in the local tournament for the week with 4C. Win streak gets ended, but Not Loss streak stays alive. My list hasn't changed much since then, just my sideboard, but I'll repost it for update's sake.

4 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta*
3 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Nantuko Monestary

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Jace Beleren
1 Life From The Loam
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Stifle
1 Extirpate
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Diabolic Edict
1 Crime // Punishment**

SB:
4 Meddling Mage
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Extirpate
2 Engineered Plague
2 Krosan Grip

(*Added a seventh fetch for a fourth Tropical. In the immortal words of Anchorman, I immediately regret this decision. Literally half the decks in this tournament were maindecking Stifle.)

(**MVP Again. Seriously.)

Round 1 was Adam playing UG Fish. (Imagine Threshold without Mongoose but with Troll, Witness, Vial, and Jitte.) I barely win game 1 despite him having two active Faerie Conclaves and me having no removal by casting Crime on a Tarmogoyf. Game 2 I absolutely steamroll him.

Round 2 was Matt (Whienot) playing what I think was a Dreadstill variant. Cool guy, pretty solid player. I set a few timing traps for him game one, which he plays through correctly, nearly killing me. He gets early Tarmogoyf beats after a mull to 6. I stabilize, he gets down a Dreadnought, and I Punish it for 1 with Counter backup. I win the long game after he amusingly Vision Charms me down to 3 cards in my library. Game 2 I draw tons of Factories, removal spells, and Extirpates. He has to Needle Factory again, and I Extirpate both Goyf and Dreadnought and drop down Mages and stomp through.

Round 3 was Jeff (Lepp) playing UGW Threshold w/ Wastelands and Counterbalances. I steamroll him game 1. Game 2 I end up losing in turns due to a misplay early on on my part: He wastes a tapped Tundra, I crack a Fetchland to get Stifle mana. He Stifles my Fetch. I Force his Stifle, but due to a complete lack of caffiene, I space out and pitch the Stifle I needed to the Force. Oops. I manage to stabilize with everything I have, but he gets an Enforcer out and eats my face on turn 4 of time. We draw.

Semifinals was Chase playing BGW Rock. I don't remember much about this short of Jace Beleren being good. Finals was Matt w/ Dreadstill again coming back from a game 1 stomping by Jeff's Threshold. We split.

[The Solution]

Hello. :wink:

I have not found any topic concerning UB Landstill in this board and in consideration of the discussion in which direction the Landstill thread should go, I thought that it would be the best to post an UB Landstill decklist in this thread.

// Lands
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [UNH] Island
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [UNH] Swamp
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
4 [B] Underground Sea
1 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
2 [LRW] Shriekmaw
2 [FUT] Tombstalker

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [MM] Counterspell
2 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
2 [PLC] Damnation
2 [SC] Decree of Pain
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [OD] Haunting Echoes
2 [GP] Repeal
2 [ON] Smother
2 [MM] Snuff Out
4 [OD] Standstill

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 2 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 4 [LRW] Thoughtseize

The advantages to other variations of Landstill are the consistency of the manabase, as well as black as the second colour which helps us through the naturally harder matchups via Extirpate and Engineered Plague.

The manabase consists of a toolbox via Tolaria West which fetches Engineered Explosives and useful lands. Knowingly I play just one Wasteland and no Stifle (Wasteland is strong, but we are the control deck). Furthermore I choosed to play 24 lands, because I play one Tolaria West and no Eternal Dragon or any mana fixer except for Brainstorm.

Maybe I could play Cunning Wish, but then I would really miss white. Another slot which was cutted down due to problems with space, is Fact or Fiction. Instead I took Brainstorm, Standstill, Repeal (very flexible) and sometimes even Decree of Pain. Most of the time Decree of Pain serves as the counterpart of Decree of Justice.

As finishers I put in Mishra's Factory, Haunting Echoes and Tombstalker, whereby the numbers of all black cards (Damnation and Smother excluded) seem to be ok. Another Engineered Explosives would also be nice.

18 blue cards for Force of Will is a bit low, perhaps there can be done something with Fact or Fiction.

I built the sideboard with the already mentioned Engineered Plague and Extirpate, followed by Thoughtseize which barely replaces Meddling Mage, but works nevertheless well with Extirpate against Cephalid Breakfast and other control decks and in general against combo.

The last three slots were filled with Hydoblast and Blue Elemental Blast.

Cards which could be taken into consideration:

Dystopia is an underplayed card and may work very well against Threshold.

Nevinyrral's Disk helps against Enchantress and Stax.

The blue and the black Planeswalker were not tested by myself so far.

Chill helps against Burn.

Aura Flux helps against Enchantress.

The Abyss is the only static solution I found for this deck which is comparable with Humility or Moat (not that it is that powerful).

Ghastly Demise and Diabolic Edict may fill some spot removal slots.

At the end i wanted to add that during my tests I had some problems against black creatrues in general (most commonly Dark Confidant, Tombstalker and Shadowmage Infiltrator) and Mystic Enforcer due to protection from black.

So long, The Solution.

[diffy]

I have not found any topic concerning UB Landstill in this board and in consideration of the discussion in which direction the Landstill thread should go, I thought that it would be the best to post an UB Landstill decklist in this thread.


TheSource's UB Landstill (Americans call it 'Duck Hunt') is here (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=871).



List

The only thing that I really don't like in your list are the Snuff Outs: 4 life-loss is quite a lot for a free removal spell... it's like taking another swing from that Tarmogoyf that you're just killing - wouldn't the one mana more of Ghastly Demise (http://magiccards.info/od/en/139.html) be worth the 'non-life loss' part (they have the same restriction as for what they're killing)? You seem to have enough cantrips/fetchies to support it quite well.
If you're desperate for free removal, I think I'd go with one or two Slaughter Pact (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/78.html)s which can be tutored via Tolaria West too: in the early game you can just ignore the creatures and/or counter them and in the mid- to lategame you can pay the upkeep cost of Pact.
Overall, Ghastly Demise is the strongest option though - just because of its cheap cost. If you're scared that you might not be able to hit anything because of your graveyard size, just go with more fetchies.

If Black utility creatures like Dark Confidant and Shadowmage Infiltrator are a concern in your meta, just go with more Smothers as it hits them both - and all the other comonly played creatures.
Overall, I wouldn't be too scared by said utility creatures though: decks playing them have a tendency of being a good matchup for Landstill [folding to card advantage and removal that is outside of Counterbalance range].

Some more comments:
You don't need so many winconditions: an average Landstill list can do with 2 CoW [4-6 manlands] and maybe 2-3 other winconditions. You play more as Shriekmaw is also a finisher in the lategame. Especially Haunting Echoes could be cut down as you only want it in the lategame and because even then it doesn't affect the board state immediately so that it can't get you out of a bad situation making it slightly winmore [it is only really good when your board is favorable or neutral]. It is still pretty good as a one off to put all those decks that are normally not that good a matchup because they can be more controling than you (e.g. Survival) under pressure: they now can't allow themselves infinite time because you have the inevitable out.
Decree of Pain looks way too slow: it doesn't kill a lot currently as Goblins are on the decline. If the mirror match is that frequent in your meta that you already dedicate otherwise mediocre mainboard slots to it (that you need it as an out to Decree of Justice/opposing Mishra's Factories), I'd go with another build with Extirpates in the main - but I don't think that this is the case so that you'd be better off with something for other matchups in those slots (more Spot Removal, more Sweepers).
The Urborg looks a little out of place: you don't really need it as you aren't that black-hungry and you don't want a Wasteable manasource that isn't as flexible as your other Wasteable lands - if you're under a threat of Wastelands, you'd rather want a Swamp, if you're under no threat, you'd rather want an Underground Sea because Blue mana and felxiblity is more important, on average, than Black mana.

Maybe go with something like this:

-2 Decree of Pain
-2 Snuff Out
-1 Haunting Echoes
-1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
+1 Flooded Strand
+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Damnation
+3 Ghastly Demise

Now, I think that 18 Blue Cards is way too low: you really want to be able to pitch-cast that FoW as often as possible and you need to be able to do this during most of the game: you just can't say that its okay if you can only pitch-cast that first FoW as you are looking for the lategame where you can't always count on hardcasting that FoW (e.g. Opponent saving up resources for one massive turn to outmana you).
To remedy this, I'd maybe up the Repeal count by one - that card is just awesome and solves so many problems while being tempo advantage without card disadvantage. I do also think that you can cut down on a land: you aren't as top-heavy as most builds because you don't play so many cmc4 spells and don't have DoJ as a lategame mana sink.

-1 Land (Underground Sea?)
+1 Repeal

The 20th Blue card could be anything really - a Thirst for Knowledge or another cheap card draw (Meditate, Jace Belaren...) would be best fit.
To implement this last Card Draw slot, which is really needed in my oppinion as you have very few ways outside of Standstill to create the vital Card Advantage, you should cut down on the removal - your sweeper suite is decent enough to not be reliant on spot removal and you already play more spot removal than your average list.

-1 Ghastly Demise/Smother
+1 Thirst for Knowledge

Alongside the addition of Thirst for Knowledge, you could also think about splitting the Damnations with Nevinyraal's Disk to have the possibility of the semi-hard lock with Academy Ruins and to have maindeck outs against nasty Artifacts/Enchantments. The Nevinyraal's Disks worked in Ur Landstill and could be decent as a one off in here too.

-1 Damnation
+1 Nevinyraal's Disk

[slaiter]

E. Tutor + Humility is viable?
Check this list:


//Lands
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical island
3 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Plains
2 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Nantuko Monastery
//24

//Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
2 Fact of Fiction
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Stifle
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Humility
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Vedalken Shackles
//36

Suggestions?

[Tacosnape]

E. Tutor + Humility is viable?
Check this list:


//Lands
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical island
3 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Plains
2 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Nantuko Monastery
//24

//Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
2 Fact of Fiction
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Stifle
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Humility
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Vedalken Shackles
//36

Suggestions?

Besides the obvious "Don't run Wasteland in a deck where you need :u::u::w::w::b::g: to cast everything in your deck?"

[slaiter]

Besides the obvious "Don't run Wasteland in a deck where you need :u::u::w::w::b::g: to cast everything in your deck?"

//Lands
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical island
3 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Plains
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Nantuko Monastery
//24

better?

Verbal warning for a severe LACK OF CONTENT (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7455). It's against our site rules to a list w/o anything else to say. Don't do it again. - Bardo

[Zach Tartell]

Well, broseph, I don't understand why you're running so many not islands. Like, sure - Humility is cute. But I'd drop your not-Tundra lands (since you aren't running Eternal Dragon) in favor of going to the full set, and either dropping Humility (since I dont' like it) or maybe keep a basic.

Additionally I don't understand why you aren't running a basic Island.

[The Solution]

@Der imaginäre Freund: Your suggestions worked so far. Except for the lone card draw slot which I never used so often, the deck has improved. :cool:

// NAME: UB Landstill

// Lands
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [UNH] Island
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [UNH] Swamp
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
4 [B] Underground Sea
1 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
2 [LRW] Shriekmaw
2 [FUT] Tombstalker

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [MM] Counterspell
2 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
2 [PLC] Damnation
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [OD] Ghastly Demise
1 [OD] Haunting Echoes
2 [B] Nevinyrral's Disk
3 [GP] Repeal
1 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
2 [ON] Smother
4 [OD] Standstill

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 2 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 4 [LRW] Thoughtseize

The tutorable Slaughter Pact and the 2/2 split between Damnation and Nevinyrral's Disk worked very well.

I tested something: I took out 4 Standstill and 4 Force of Will for 4 Thoughtseize and 4 Extirpate against Gbw Survival. I lost the matchup 1:2, but I won the second game, wheras the third was close in the end and I were a bit out of luck not drawing the needed removal (problem: no Standstill). (Take this as an experiment. Also look at: Engineered Plague versus Shaman.)

Possibly we may find some slots to cut where we may add two Thirst for Knowledge, as it is good with a few artifacts now.

Another concern of mine is, wheter a third off colour dual may be putted into the deck for Engineered Explosives. As far as I know I rather end up losing this mana instead of killing something with CC 3. :confused:

What about Dystopia?

[mossivo1986]

Quick Notes:

Der: We were discussing sb options a bit ago and I did want to say I tested the 1 of enlightened tutor. Talk about amazing.

Last night I was playing against mono black disruption. In that game It's obviously all about making your land drops and creating as much virtual card advantage against them as possible. But I remember in a key turn I had turned the tables on him. Anyways he casts ritual sinkhole/ tombstalker. I wish for enlightened tutor, then grab humility, just wow, good times. It was unbelievably good, and I couldn't find a fricken humility to save my life heh.

I'm wondering though if slaughter pact truly deserves a slot anymore. I do see it's usefullness in select situations, but is it really that neccesary?

Also I think i've been sideboarding incorrectly against

Dredge
D-Stompy

as well as a couple others. How would you sb in the four color model?

[The Solution]

Against Dredge I would definetly board in Extirpate and Engineered Plague, whereby Standstill and counterspells would be the most noteable candidates to board out since the Dredge player would put on his engine sooner or later even without casting a single spell.

Against Dragon Stompy I would recommend you to board in all blue blasts you have even if he plays Chalice of the Void. But I am quite clueless what I would board in next. Depends on what else will be in the sideboard. (Nevinyrral's Disk against Blood Moon effects?)

Concerning Slaughter Pact and Enlightened Tutor: It is the question wheter you want to play the fourth Engineered Plague or Enlightened Tutor which seals the deal in the lategame. Never forget that Enlightened Tutor stocks up the virtual count of Engineered Plague by one as well. So I think that it is a good decision to play one Enlightened Tutor in the sideboard.

Slaughter Pact can be substituted by things like Condemn to hit creatures like Tombstalker and Mystic Enforcer. But then you have to remember what Slaughter Pact was for. Namely for Magus of the Moon. But a blue Blast which is already in the sideboard would do the same. So Sluaghter Pact remains a disputable slot. :rolleyes:

[Nihil Credo]

Against Dredge I would definetly board in Extirpate and Engineered Plague, whereby Standstill and counterspells would be the most noteable candidates to board out since the Dredge player would put on his engine sooner or later even without casting a single spell.

+4 Plague +4 Extirpate is right, but you're wrong on what to board out. You keep Counterspells, because they are critical in countering Dread Return, Therapies, and possibly their discard outlets. You side out Ghastly Demise and Slaughter Pact, since they only hit Narcomoebas, which are already hit by every other piece of removal you run.

The last card to come out is probably one of your sweepers: Damnation can resolve sooner, kill Golgari Grave-Troll, and not hurt your Crucible, but Nevinyrral's Disk can fire off at instant speed.


Against Dragon Stompy I would recommend you to board in all blue blasts you have even if he plays Chalice of the Void. But I am quite clueless what I would board in next. Depends on what else will be in the sideboard. (Nevinyrral's Disk against Blood Moon effects?)

Stick with the blue blasts, cutting Repeals (which are clunky against anything but Chrome Mox). As long as you have a basic land or two, you shouldn't lose to Dragon Stompy and don't need extra SB.

[The Solution]

@Nihil: Oh, I am sorry. I thought we were talking about UWb and UWbg Landstill and not about UB Landstill.

There you are right. I would also board out stuff which does not kill black creatures, but what about Standstill? Should not they go out? But then again I would not have enough blue cards for Force of Will. (UB Landstill) :rolleyes:

[landstill101]

[QUOTE=The Solution;219980]Against Dredge I would definetly board in Extirpate and Engineered Plague, whereby Standstill and counterspells would be the most noteable candidates to board out since the Dredge player would put on his engine sooner or later even without casting a single spell.

QUOTE]


I know I havn't played dredge since my friends deck got 8th at gencon, but when has engineered plague helped??? you do realize that the zombies are 2/2s and if you side out counterspell then they will be 3/3s with haste, and pls don't say it stops narcomeba, they dont need them out all at once, they have ichorid and they willjust use more zombie tokens. Dredge is not hard to beat with this deck, its kind of like belcher, if you have force in hand you will be ok, make sure to always counter breakthrough and any discard outlet for them. and if you bring in extirpate you just hit either the dredge returns or the bridges and it should be easy game with the counterspells there to stop them bringing anything important into play.

[diffy]

I know I havn't played dredge since my friends deck got 8th at gencon, but when has engineered plague helped??? you do realize that the zombies are 2/2s and if you side out counterspell then they will be 3/3s with haste, and pls don't say it stops narcomeba, they dont need them out all at once, they have ichorid and they willjust use more zombie tokens.


Depending on the situation, Engineered Plague naming Horror (Ichorid) is a good play, especially for the versions not playing White as they can't get rid of the reccuring 3 power hasty guy. The tokkens are generally handled more easily via Engineered Explosives, Pernicious Deed, other Sweepers (Damnation, Wrath of God) or by killing one of your own guys (Tarmogoyf, Mishra's Factory).
In certain situations (especially the lategame where the opponent doesn't have a lot of food for Ichorid anymore or when you've already handled some via Swords to Plowshares), naming Zombie is pretty strong too as it halves their clock.



Dredge is not hard to beat with this deck, its kind of like belcher, if you have force in hand you will be ok, make sure to always counter breakthrough and any discard outlet for them. and if you bring in extirpate you just hit either the dredge returns or the bridges and it should be easy game with the counterspells there to stop them bringing anything important into play.

The competent Ichorid player will always side the Dread Return Combo out: he doesn't need it because he doesn't need to win fast.
Also, the competent Ichorid player will never, never loose to countermagic that isn't backed up by a clock: he'll just go for the DDD (draw, discard, dredge) plan as long as you aren't building up pressure or as long as he hasn't a significant number of additional dredgers in his yard. Only then will he play a Discard outlet/Breakthrough/etc. because now he can afford to go under 7 cards in hand as he doesn't need the discard step anymore - he has enough dredgers in the yard for the rest of the game (or for most of it): except for countering Bounce or Discard, Countermagic is pretty useless in this matchup as Dredgeing 5-6 cards a turn will usually still beat you - the Ichorid player doesn't have to go teh nutz and risk to give you multiple Time-Walks by emptying his hand early.

Against Ichorid, I'd always board out the Standstills first: Ichorid can play the 'spell-less-game' way better than you can.

This is the boarding plan for my UWb version:

-4 Standstill
-3 Cunning Wish
-1 Eternal Dragon
-1 Counterspell
-2 Crucible of Worlds

+4 Meddling Mage
+4 Engineered Plague
+3 Extirpate

I'm cutting down on the Counterspells because there isn't too much interesting stuff to handle - they'll have one or two bounce spells that you have to counter at most.
Meddling Mage should always name Cabal Therapy if played early enough: it makes their Zombie production a lot slower and it assures that your permanent hate (Humility, Engineered Plague) is safe until you can drop it.

[The Solution]

I do not think that we have enough counterspells to counter all outlets. It is ok to keep them in the deck, but it is also necessary to side in Extirpate, as well as Engineered Plague which seals the deal by either negating Ichorid or the zombie engine (also Putrid Imp, another outlet). Engineered Explosives, Shriekmaw (against Bridge from Below), Haunting Echoes will also help a lot.

@Der imaginäre Freund: After the consideration of your board plan you have only 15 blue cards left in the deck, am I right? The question now is, if we should not consider to board out Force of Will first or did I misunderstood something in reference to your last post? (You said that if one is low on blue cards to pitch it would be ahrder to play a second Force of Will for free.)

[diffy]

After the consideration of your board plan you have only 15 blue cards left in the deck, am I right? The question now is, if we should not consider to board out Force of Will first

Against any Combo deck, you won't need to cast more than one FoW - most scary stuff happens on turn1-2 and then you've got a lot of time to recover (read: draw cards) to get enough blue cards for FoW. Also, against non-Ichorid Combo decks, you're actually boarding out non-blue cards (WoG, StoP etc.) for blue cards (Meddling Mage).
Against Ichorid, you don't need to cast FoW more often than once either: it is not very realistic that they hit more than one Bounce-spell early (they only have 4 Chain of Vapor and maybe 1-2 Emerald Charm or 1-2 Ray of Revelation) so that again you have enough time to stabilize and draw more cards to be able to pitch that second FoW.
Boarding out FoW against Ichorid is worse than boarding out Counterspells, in my opinion, because, by doing that, you slow yourself down unnecessarily (you don't want to tap out for your hate anymore because he could just bounce it and/or go teh nutz (tm) without you being able to do anything).



or did I misunderstood something in reference to your last post? (You said that if one is low on blue cards to pitch it would be ahrder to play a second Force of Will for free.)

That statement is true, especially for control mirrors and against aggro-control but doesn't really apply to combo (which I was reffering to in my last post): you only have to survive one first, early, onslaught so that you won't need to pitchcast more than one FoW.

Overall, the Ichorid matchup isn't that desperate as it sounds though - especially with the UWb version you have quite a lot of outs postboard: Meddling Mage, Engineered Plague, Engineered Explosives, Humility etc. all hurt the Ichorid player.
Also note that UWb Landstill caused my only 'non-win' piloting Ichorid at a larger tournament in Nürnberg - I was happy to be able to drag game3 into the time-out after getting absolutely crushed game2.

[Tacosnape]

Adding on to the Plague-vs-Ichorid discussion, Plague on Zombies generally is a losing plan, because you aren't going to stop the Zombies, the Ichorids, or the Narcomoebas doing that. You can double Plague them, of course, but then you've still got Ichorids and Narcomoebas coming at your face.

Extirpate on Bridge from Below, however, stops all the Zombies. From there, just get a Plague on Horror/Illusion to handle Ichorid and Narcomoeba, and they're left having to either dig for Ray of Revelation if they run it (Or trying to topdeck Chain of Vapor), or kill you with bad hardcast guys.

If you only get one Plague, it sort of depends on your hand. Two factories or some STP's can nullify Ichorid attacks and make Illusion the right call. If you can't deal with the Ichs, though, they beat you down a lot quicker. A second Extirpate can make it not matter, also, as you can just Extirpate whichever one you didn't Plague for (Just don't pass priority with the Narcomoeba trigger on the stack so one doesn't sneak in.)

[raharu]

So I presume that the gameplan against 7/7 regenerating Trolls would be StP/ counter Dread Return? Or does competive Ichorid not run Grave-Troll anymore (I'm being serious. I haven't read the thread in ages).

EDIT: sidenote: I think that "argo" landstill (the URw builds) got a large boost from the introduction of Godhead of Awe. For those that aren't following the previews and the Shadowmoor Info thread diligently, here's the card:

(U/w)(U/w)(U/w)(U/w)(U/w)
4/4 - spirit avatar
flying
all other creatures are 1/1

In a URw build running a few of these, about three Pyroclasm for the early game, and possibly 8 burn (Lightning Helix, Lightning Bolt) we might find a fairly solid deck to fight agro, goblins, Ichorid (MD Pyroclasm + MD EE is probably going to rape and pillage thier village) and the deck would have a pheasable clock in the form of burn, manlands, and a flying 4/4 that keeps the board on lock (unfortunately, Godhead of Awe, outside of being fugly, doesn't take Threshold modifiers from Mongeese. Oh well, it's EE tiem, I guess).

Thoughts? I intend to start with one of Adan's UR 'Still lists and work from there.

[Tacosnape]

So I presume that the gameplan against 7/7 regenerating Trolls would be StP/ counter Dread Return? Or does competive Ichorid not run Grave-Troll anymore (I'm being serious. I haven't read the thread in ages).

Well, in theory, if you've shut off Bridge/Narcomoeba/Ichorid, you've shut off their ability to get GGT out barring an insane hardcast. But in the event they go for a GGT before you can pull this off, then yes, this is what you've got STP for. Or Edict, or Force of Will, or whatever.

[bladewing019]

unfortunately, Godhead of Awe, outside of being fugly, doesn't take Threshold modifiers from Mongeese.

If the Mongoose had threshold and was in play before godhead came into play would it leave Mongoose as a 1/1?

Godhead definitely looks like an interesting card for Landstill, but isn't it better just to run Humility, and win through DoJ or manlands?

[from Cairo]

but isn't it better just to run Humility, and win through DoJ or manlands?

Yes. This card really should make no impact in Legacy. Humility is strictly better. I guess actually if you weren't playing white at all and were casting him for UUUUU, in like Ubg Landstill then it could in that context be better than Humility simply because its supportable. If running white, Humility is strictly better.

[Tacosnape]

Additionally, Humility doesn't get killed by Swords to Plowshares, and Godhead doesn't stop creature abilities on things like Dark Confidant or Goblin Ringleader/Piledriver/Matron.

[mossivo1986]

In case you want any pictures for these critters:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=108572

There ya go!


Humility is strictly better from a power standpoint because it stops come into play effects, not just because its an enchantment.

There is something I have been wondering though. Theres a four drop 4/3 flyer I believe that is u/w u/w (2) and it prevents all damage dealt to it, but the sources controller draws cards equal to the damage. This to me is amazing. If someone could find a card "im at work and dont have my mws up." to deal continual damage to it through one card. aka a pestilance type of card but cheaper, say around 2-3 cc, then we might be onto some innovation here.

[Jaiminho]

If the Mongoose had threshold and was in play before godhead came into play would it leave Mongoose as a 1/1?

If I am correct, Mongoose would be 3/3. His static ability applies at 6d while Godhead's ability applies at 6b.


There is something I have been wondering though. Theres a four drop 4/3 flyer I believe that is u/w u/w (2) and it prevents all damage dealt to it, but the sources controller draws cards equal to the damage. This to me is amazing. If someone could find a card "im at work and dont have my mws up." to deal continual damage to it through one card. aka a pestilance type of card but cheaper, say around 2-3 cc, then we might be onto some innovation here.

There is Chain of Plasma: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9086

[Mental]

The Wydwen thing is a joke. When my friends in Berkeley who read this site see that, they'll groan and facepalm.

On another note, has anyone ever thought of trying Tangle Wire? I'm a little leery about skipping turns in a format where a two drop can halve your life total or worse in that amount of time. Tangle Wire slows you down a bit but puts some big brakes on your opponents. Also, Wire + Ruins = fun.

:facepalm:

Anyways, glad you're running EE over Shackles. I've been testing this deck a bit.
-The MU against any sort of Balanced Thresh/MoonThresh is very good. Thrash is harder, and I wouldn't make it even harder by adding Black. Goose is the one card most builds of Thresh run that really fucks up your gameplan, if it resolves. The problem is that you only have factory/nodes as a means of removal, though I haven't tested with EE, so it might be less scary. Still, Goose goes all the way a little too often.
-I know I was pushing for Black on Friday but the more I think about it, it's probably unnecessary. Vindicate is nice, sure, but so is a stable manabase, especially in our meta. All I'm worried about is the Dredge MU sucking even harder than usual. Loam probably won't be fun either. Still, I think if Loam is a problem, you can run Planar Void (I think that's the card), and one guy plays Dredge. Green seems stronger - Not for Goyf, but for Monastery/Grip, and it could be an even lighter splash.
-Howabout a 1 of Eternal Dragon in place of a Land? I've noticed your list is a bit light on wincons. That's been my biggest problem with all sorts of Landstill lately, but I won't get into that.

Anyways, I'd consider a light Green splash.

[mossivo1986]

:facepalm:

Anyways, glad you're running EE over Shackles. I've been testing this deck a bit.
-The MU against any sort of Balanced Thresh/MoonThresh is very good. Thrash is harder, and I wouldn't make it even harder by adding Black. Goose is the one card most builds of Thresh run that really fucks up your gameplan, if it resolves. The problem is that you only have factory/nodes as a means of removal, though I haven't tested with EE, so it might be less scary. Still, Goose goes all the way a little too often.
-I know I was pushing for Black on Friday but the more I think about it, it's probably unnecessary. Vindicate is nice, sure, but so is a stable manabase, especially in our meta. All I'm worried about is the Dredge MU sucking even harder than usual. Loam probably won't be fun either. Still, I think if Loam is a problem, you can run Planar Void (I think that's the card), and one guy plays Dredge. Green seems stronger - Not for Goyf, but for Monastery/Grip, and it could be an even lighter splash.
-Howabout a 1 of Eternal Dragon in place of a Land? I've noticed your list is a bit light on wincons. That's been my biggest problem with all sorts of Landstill lately, but I won't get into that.

Anyways, I'd consider a light Green splash.

Can you give us a list to work with as a refresher please? I want to understand where your comming from alittle better.

"please don't repremand this post for lack of content mods. I'm trying to understand what he's saying."

Well, that's what PMs are for. - Bardo

[from Cairo]

I assume Mental's reply was directed to the list Aggro_Zombie posted a page back...

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=219499&postcount=1522


Anyways, glad you're running EE over Shackles. I've been testing this deck a bit.
I think if going with a non Black/Green Landstill list you really need to have EE. Having a way to clear troublesome non-creature permanents off the board is often a large part of controlling the game. I would agree that EE is indispensable in UWx.

-The MU against any sort of Balanced Thresh/MoonThresh is very good. Thrash is harder, and I wouldn't make it even harder by adding Black. Goose is the one card most builds of Thresh run that really fucks up your gameplan, if it resolves. The problem is that you only have factory/nodes as a means of removal, though I haven't tested with EE, so it might be less scary. Still, Goose goes all the way a little too often.
Factory and EE are pretty solid answers to Mongoose imo, having Nodes makes up for some of the lacking removal, also Aggro_Zombies has 3 Hoofprints of the Stag, and 4/4 Elemental tokens eat Mongeese. It seems like his list should handle them ok.

-I know I was pushing for Black on Friday but the more I think about it, it's probably unnecessary. Vindicate is nice, sure, but so is a stable manabase, especially in our meta. All I'm worried about is the Dredge MU sucking even harder than usual. Loam probably won't be fun either. Still, I think if Loam is a problem, you can run Planar Void (I think that's the card), and one guy plays Dredge. Green seems stronger - Not for Goyf, but for Monastery/Grip, and it could be an even lighter splash.
I'm pretty sure adding Black will help the Dredge and Loam match ups more than adding Green. It gives you Extirpate and Engineered Plague. If you're in White already is Krosan Grip really worthy of splashing an additional color? Dismantilling Blow dodges Counterbalance most of the time already, and both it and Grip answer Chalices, Bloodmoons, etc just as well. Monastery is a nice extra guy, but it makes you GY dependent and means more colorless lands. If it activated for UW or something I would no doubt agree it's worth running, but I don't think its worth splashing a color for.

-Howabout a 1 of Eternal Dragon in place of a Land? I've noticed your list is a bit light on wincons. That's been my biggest problem with all sorts of Landstill lately, but I won't get into that.
It's lighter on land than it is on win cons; 22 Land is already low for Landstill I wouldn't advocate 21, adding a Dragon in for something else doesn't seem necessarily bad though.

[Aggro_zombies]

I assume Mental's reply was directed to the list Aggro_Zombie posted a page back...
It was. He is one of the people I play with in Berkeley, hence the ":facepalm:".


I'm pretty sure adding Black will help the Dredge and Loam match ups more than adding Green. It gives you Extirpate and Engineered Plague. If you're in White already is Krosan Grip really worthy of splashing an additional color? Dismantilling Blow dodges Counterbalance most of the time already, and both it and Grip answer Chalices, Bloodmoons, etc just as well. Monastery is a nice extra guy, but it makes you GY dependent and means more colorless lands. If it activated for UW or something I would no doubt agree it's worth running, but I don't think its worth splashing a color for.
Well, if I went black, it would be for one sideboard Extirpate and 2-3 maindeck Vindicates, and possibly some number of Smother (at least one to replace the Condemn). If I ran green it would be for some number of sideboard Grips (possibly the full four, dunno), 4 Tarmogoyf, and 2-3 Garruk (most likely 2), but I don't really like Tarmogoyf in Landstill and shuffling around that many maindeck slots would be painful. Most likely I'd be cutting Nodes, Hoofprints, and one of something else, but then I feel like I'm just running a bad aggro-control deck.


It's lighter on land than it is on win cons; 22 Land is already low for Landstill I wouldn't advocate 21, adding a Dragon in for something else doesn't seem necessarily bad though.
Maybe. So far I haven't found it to be much of a problem.

[from Cairo]

Well, if I went black, it would be for one sideboard Extirpate and 2-3 maindeck Vindicates, and possibly some number of Smother (at least one to replace the Condemn). If I ran green it would be for some number of sideboard Grips (possibly the full four, dunno), 4 Tarmogoyf, and 2-3 Garruk (most likely 2), but I don't really like Tarmogoyf in Landstill and shuffling around that many maindeck slots would be painful. Most likely I'd be cutting Nodes, Hoofprints, and one of something else, but then I feel like I'm just running a bad aggro-control deck.
The Black splash works nice since its light, it can be for a SB card or two and be supported off 2-3 duals, which should yield a stronger mana base, additional basics or utility depending on need. And even when not utilizing the SB cards, an off color dual can always help pump a out an EE@3. If you try to support Garruk its going to probably require 4 Tropical Islands; I was having trouble with reliably hitting :2: :g: :g: for him, but I was testing it in a build with Wrath of God at the time so my color requirements were probably a bit too spread out. In your shell it might work better. I tend to agree with your point of view on Goyf, but clearly its working for other people so /shrug.

Maybe. So far I haven't found it to be much of a problem.
Having 4 Ponder in addition to Brainstorm probably helps alot. But still I would not want to run fewer than 22 land in a deck where you need to make your first 4 land drops, ideally quite a few more, even with cantrips.

[Mental]

Wow, in my list I've been playing 23 lands. My bad.
It seems like you should have enough answers for Goose, but in my experiance, you don't. Mishra's will always get Bolted/StPd/Smothered, Hoofprints won't resolve, and Nodes probably won't either. However, I guess with EE you may have too many ways of dealing with Goose for Thresh to stop them all.
I'm not sure Vindicate MD is necessary. Cunning Wish can usually grab creature removal, enchantment/artifact removal, so all you're lacking is land removal.
Also, smother does seem a lot better than Condemn, but not really worth splashing for.

[mossivo1986]

If mentals refering to porphery nodes the thresh players I have played against with nodes will tend to not counter it. It's really not that big of a deal because thresh generally doesnt get into creature wars with landstill so it's not going to have to over commit constantly. One mongoose is enough to win the game and nodes THRIVES off of multiple hits off creatures. Because once there are no creatures, it sacs itself.

Which SUCKs in my opinion.


I actually played a u/w deck called

(Aura-Still) "Pun intended"
Which used the sorcery that grabs all enchants out of grave, along with porphery nodes, opalescence, I believe humility as well, seal of removal, ect. ect. ect. I remember the list was SOO much fun, but it just wasnt enough, though it won alot of games in the beggining. Nodes was sometimes UBER powerfull, and sometimes it just blew. It was my replacement for STP at the time, and it just wasnt worth it, but you couldnt run 8 1 drop removal spells in that deck because it didnt allow for it properly. The cool play was to play standstill late game, break it with an auramancer, return your standstill, play seal of removal, sac hit your mancer, rinse and repeat once more, then play the four drop enchantments from graveyard into play spell, and just continue milling as an alternate win condition. It was kind of a neat use of standstill. Like I said this isn't something i'd recommend, it was just a little project I had, and it was EXTREMELY confusing to work with sometimes. Especially the mana base.

[mossivo1986]

So I played in my first tournament with the tweaked wastelands model, and needless to say the FORCE was not with me, at all. Out of the three rounds I played I went 1-2 often missing swords and/ or force when I needed them the most. My open 7 was fine almost all the time, and I often would miss land drops on turns 4-5-6. The hands where my library didn't completely hoze me I won, and obviously I was 6 way and 7 way pile shuffling. So I have deceided after 14hours of sleep on sunday to monday that it was deffinately the force. My second round opponenet I had locked down game 1 with his hand size down to one card and all I had to do was continue the mishra factory assualt/ wasteland lock with LFTL, and heres what happened afterwards

draw: he plays crucible, I let it resolve "no lands in graveyard"
draw: "enchantment that grabs multiple lands from your hand per turn." I probobly should have force this but he had counterspell sitting in hand.
draw: wasteland, GG

my match 3 went alittle bad too.

game 1 he saw ritual thought"sneize" hymn on the play
game 2 he saw ritual sarcomancy, and the 2/1 shade for 2 black mana that pumps.
game 3 he saw the same EXACT hand of game two.

That match I beat him game 1, and also note, went 2-12 swords "saw both first game." and 0-12 force, 0-2 wish, 0-6 humility.... Yeah and theres more. It was really just bad. Game two I had top decked counterspell counterspell counterspell and missed my fourth turn land drop with a decree on top of my deck. He killed me quickly needless to say. It was very embaressing to waste him without any trouble game 1 and then basicly just give up games 2-3. Both my hands were fine for game 2-3 minus the turn one nuts stopiness, but had he cast t1 hymn they were really good hands to defend with against that. Just a sad day. But bleh.

[i_need_the_extra_turns]

Hi,

i want to present my current 4c Landstill version:

//Lands #24

3x Flooded Strand
2x Polluted Delta
3x Tundra
2x Underground Sea
2x Tropical Island
1x Scrubland
1x Island
1x Plains
4x Mishra's Factory
1x Nantuko Monastery
2x Wasteland
1x Tolaria West
1x Academy Ruins

//Draw
4x Standstill
4x Brainstorm

//Finisher
2x Decree of Justice

//Stuff
2x Crucible of Worlds
3x Deed
3x Explosives
2x Humility
4x Swords
2x Cunning Wish

//Counter
4x FoW
4x Counterspell
2x Spell Snare


My Board:
3x Meddling Mage
4x Extirpate
2x E-Plague
1x Pulse of Fields
2x BEB
1x Enlightened Tutor
1x Slaughter Pact
+1 xxx


// Card choices:

Manabase:
I know, that the manabase isn't 100% stable, but it works very well when i play the deck. I like the tolaria west, because it gives me easily the nantuko under a humility or the academy + EE - lock. But maybe i should cut one wasteland for a savannah. Maybe you have some ideas.

It's the normal humility-wish build i think. The humility is absolutely ridiculous and owns nearly every deck.
I have cuted the e-dragon to play spell snares. They are very strong in my meta.

//My meta:
We play every 2 weeks in a bar in my hometown. We are always rougly 15 poeple, who are playing.

Decks:
Canadian UG/r Thresh (not the perfect build, but its hard to play against)
UG/w *****
Sliver
C.-Breakfast
Loam decks
Dredge
Goblins
Rock

What I'm thinking about:
The sliver deck and UG/r ***** play both 4 wasteland and 4 stifle main, so it's often very hard to stabilize my manabase and not die first. Therefor I can play 2 stifles instead of the spell snare to improve this matchup. But I like the spell snares, too.

Another Problem is, that i don't really know how to board against UG/r Thresh.
I always cut the 2 wishes and 1 counterspell for 1 pulse and 1 enlightened tutor and a BEB.

What should I board against C-Breakfast?
Last matchup I decided not to board the mages in because the humility was strong enough.
Just: +4 Extirpate +2 Plague +1 Enlight. Tutor
for -1 CoW -2 C-Wish -2 Spell snare -2 Decree of justice


greetz

[Burr]

Another Problem is, that i don't really know how to board against UG/r Thresh.
I always cut the 2 wishes and 1 counterspell for 1 pulse and 1 enlightened tutor and a BEB.

What should I board against C-Breakfast?
Last matchup I decided not to board the mages in because the humility was strong enough.
Just: +4 Extirpate +2 Plague +1 Enlight. Tutor
for -1 CoW -2 C-Wish -2 Spell snare -2 Decree of justice



Boarding in extirpates against UGr thresh is always good, especially when cutting all your wishes from MD.

Against Breakfast, or any combo deck for that matter, you should board in the meddling mages even if you do run humility. E. plague is really good against breakfast as well and other decks, so maybe up'n the count in your sb would improve your m/u vs combo, sliver, and goblin decks.

On a side note, I've also had trouble playing against UGr thresh (even though many claim it to be a favorable m/u, but their stifle/wastelands really hurt) does anyone have suggestions for this m/u? Is it wise to allow a single mongoose to beat you down below 10 in order to wait for the UGr thresh player to drop another creature before you wrath of EE?

[Berzerked]

If a single Mongoose is kicking your ass, there really isn't a reason for the Thresh player to drop another creature (unless you can find a Factory). Chances are, against Thresh, you are going to be 1-for-1ing their creatures most of the time, so in that situation, don't wait it out, especially since that gives them more time to draw into counters/more creatures.

[from Cairo]

Agreed, trading 1 for 1 with Thresh is fine, they only have 8-12 creatures usually. Occasionally you will get lucky and they will walk into a Wrath or Deed, with 2 guys out, but most of the time if you have no Factories there is no reason for them to extend beyond a single Mongoose/Goyf at a time. When you figure you have 4 Swords, 2-3 EE, 3-4 Wrath/Humility/Deed, you have the sheer numbers to trade 1 for 1 with them and still have left over removal/win cons.

[i_need_the_extra_turns]

Boarding in extirpates against UGr thresh is always good, especially when cutting all your wishes from MD.


Extirpate on goyf is really strong. But what should I board out?
Maybe:
+2 Extirpate
+1 BEB
+1 Pulse,
for -2 wish, -1 Counter, -1Deed ???

Or what would u do? I miss the enlightened tutor for the humility or CoW.



Against Breakfast, or any combo deck for that matter, you should board in the meddling mages even if you do run humility. E. plague is really good against breakfast as well and other decks, so maybe up'n the count in your sb would improve your m/u vs combo, sliver, and goblin decks.


E.plague isn't very good vs. slivers, because they play 4 muscle + 4 white "muscle".
Ok, vs. breakfast I should also board in the mages.
My plan:
+4 Extirpate +2 Plague +1 Enlight. Tutor
+ 3 mages

for: -2 cunning wish, -2 decree, -1 CoW, -1 spell snare, -1 counterspell,
-3 xxx ????
Help^^....



On a side note, I've also had trouble playing against UGr thresh (even though many claim it to be a favorable m/u, but their stifle/wastelands really hurt) does anyone have suggestions for this m/u? Is it wise to allow a single mongoose to beat you down below 10 in order to wait for the UGr thresh player to drop another creature before you wrath of EE?

When you want to improve your UG/r matchup I see only the opportunity to play stifles main.

greetz

[mossivo1986]

Extirpate on goyf is really strong. But what should I board out?
Maybe:

Extirpate on goyf is ok, but extirpate on goose is your first goal post board.

Make your land drops hit a goose, pate it and watch them scramble for another answer. If they get a goyf remember you only have to bait them, you still have 4 swords and 3 more extirpates so your going to tear them a new one. The key for me always has been the burn versions. Beating them in time has been a problem sometimes. Thats why I usually try to eliminate threats and then mana base, as they only have 2-4 lands when they are at their best, with a butsex load of counters and disruption.

[diffy]

All boarding strategies with regards to the decklist at the end of the post.



Boarding against Ugr Thresh
Extirpate on goyf is really strong. But what should I board out?
Maybe:
+2 Extirpate
+1 BEB
+1 Pulse,
for -2 wish, -1 Counter, -1Deed ???

Or what would u do? I miss the enlightened tutor for the humility or CoW.


I'll asume that you're talking about the Canadian Ugr Tempo Thrash here - boarding against Moon Thresh or the older Hatfield red splashed Thresh follows a different logic.

You want to take in:
Extirpate

The worst cards in that matchup are:
Cunning Wish -> they fetch literally nothing but Slaughter Pact or Extirpate making them really clunky. You can fetch a Pulse of the Fields to get out of burn range but I'd rather take things in that are not that mana/color intensive and actually prevent me from getting into burn range.
Decree of Justice -> it does pretty much nothing but stall for a few turns, if you managed to build up your mana through their disruption. It is also a pretty horrible wincondition since they can just Stifle it.

Hence:
-2 Decree of Justice
-2 Cunning Wish
+3 Extirpate -> I wouldn't board in more becaue you never want to see more than one and that one you only want to see in the mid-game when you've already handled a Goyf and survived the initial assaults on your manabase. Earlier it is just a blank and doesn't even pitch to Force of Will.
+1 Enlightened Tutor -> in matchups where I board the Cunning Wishes out, the Tutor comes in quite a lot because he fetches all sorts of bombs, especially having more copies of Humility/Crucible of Worlds/Engineered Explosives is very strong against NQG. Do also remember that you can always fetch for a Standstill if you're low on cards.

Blue Elemental Blast only hits 8 cards in their deck - which are all not scary enough that you want to dedicate a slot to fighting them - deckspace is more prime than that.

If you're up against the other, more controling, NQG builds, I'd leave the Cunning Wish in because it can always fetch you a solution to Counterbalance or Blood Moon. Taking 2 Extirpates in for 2 Decree of Justices still is a good move though.



Boarding against Counterslivers
E.plague isn't very good vs. slivers, because they play 4 muscle + 4 white "muscle".


Engineered Plague still 'counters' one of their Muscle/Sinew Slivers and can buy you some time to set up a Sweeper (Pernicious Deed / Engineered Explosives / Wrath of God) or Humility.

I'd try something along these lines:

-1 Crucible of Worlds
-1 Life from the Loam
-2 Decree of Justice -> Just too slow and gets rendered useless by Winged Sliver too easily
-1 Eternal Dragon -> Just too slow. Also, they don't attack your manabase so that the fetching effect is minimal
+3 Engineered Plague
+2 Extirpate -> Still good on their Crystaline or Pump Slivers

Alternatively, with your build, you could go like this:

-2 Crucible of Worlds
-1 Decree of Justice
+2 Engineered Plague
+1 Extirpate



Boarding against Cephalid Breakfast
Ok, vs. breakfast I should also board in the mages.
My plan:
+4 Extirpate +2 Plague +1 Enlight. Tutor
+ 3 mages

for: -2 cunning wish, -2 decree, -1 CoW, -1 spell snare, -1 counterspell,
-3 xxx ????


Against Cephalid Breakfast, you can take out a lot of stuff:

-1 Crucible of Worlds
-1 Life from the Loam
-2 Decree of Justice
-1 Eternal Dragon
-2 Cunning Wish
-2 Standstill
-1 Counterspell

+4 Meddling Mage
+3 Extirpate
+3 Engineered Plague

I'm not too sure about the plan though - I'll have to test that matchup more in dept (it has fallen off the radar in Germany) and I'll come back to you.

With your build, I'd take out another Counterspell instead of the Eternal Dragon.



When you want to improve your UG/r matchup I see only the opportunity to play stifles main.


The matchup actually still is quite favorable for you - you just have to get used to it and play quite carefully leaving fetchies uncracked as long as possible etc.- and always keep in mind that you only have to resolve a Humility* and win. With this attitude of non-chalence, you shouldn't have too many problems - especially since they can only do one thing most of the time: disrupt you or kill you.

*: You should be in full control of the game by the time they find their singleton Wipe Away or Rushing River - you shouldn't have any problems winning that counterwar - just don't let your plays become sloppy and play carefully (pre-emtively play Deeds/EEs etc.).

This is the most up to date 4c Cunning Landstill, I fully recomend playing it:



/// Maindeck (60 cards)

// Lands (25)
4 Flooded Strand (http://magiccards.info/on/en/316.html)
2 Windswept Heath (http://magiccards.info/on/en/328.html)
1 Polluted Delta (http://magiccards.info/on/en/321.html)
4 Tundra (http://magiccards.info/be/en/300.html)
2 Underground Sea (http://magiccards.info/be/en/301.html)
1 Tropical Island (http://magiccards.info/be/en/299.html)
1 Scrubland (http://magiccards.info/be/en/294.html)
1 Savannah (http://magiccards.info/be/en/293.html)
1 Plains (http://magiccards.info/apac/en/4.html)
1 Island (http://magiccards.info/apac/en/12.html)
1 Tolaria West (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/173.html)
4 Mishra's Factory (http://magiccards.info/aq/en/67.html)
1 Wasteland (http://magiccards.info/tp/en/340.html)
1 Academy Ruins (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/269.html)

// Winconditions (5)
1 Life from the Loam (http://magiccards.info/rav/en/172.html)
1 Crucible of Worlds (http://magiccards.info/5dn/en/114.html)
1 Eternal Dragon (http://magiccards.info/sc/en/12.html)
2 Decree of Justice (http://magiccards.info/sc/en/8.html)

// Permission (8)
4 Counterspell (http://magiccards.info/be/en/55.html)
4 Force of Will (http://magiccards.info/ai/en/42.html)

// Card Advantage (10)
4 Brainstorm (http://magiccards.info/mm/en/61.html)
4 Standstill (http://magiccards.info/od/en/102.html)
2 Cunning Wish (http://magiccards.info/ju/en/37.html)

// Removal (12)
4 Swords to Plowshares (http://magiccards.info/ia/en/278.html)
4 Pernicious Deed (http://magiccards.info/ap/en/114.html)
2 Humility (http://magiccards.info/tp/en/236.html)
2 Engineered Explosives (http://magiccards.info/5dn/en/118.html)

/// Sideboard (15 cards)
3 Engineered Plague (http://magiccards.info/ul/en/51.html)
4 Meddling Mage (http://magiccards.info/ps/en/116.html)
3 Extirpate (http://magiccards.info/pc/en/71.html)
1 Pulse of the Fields (http://magiccards.info/ds/en/11.html)
1 Slaughter Pact (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/78.html)
1 Enlightened Tutor (http://magiccards.info/mr/en/218.html)
1 Seed Spark (http://magiccards.info/rav/en/30.html)
1 Blue Elemental Blast (http://magiccards.info/be/en/50.html)


I still like the Crucible of Worlds / Life from the Loam split as it gives you greater mana stability in the early game which is especially great against anything that attacks your manabase - rendering their LD near to useless (SuiBlack, NQG/r) or at least only transforming it into a tempo-measure that they have to sustain for a larger periode of time to really get you off removal mana.
Eternal Dragon still is great too: really - don't make the mistake to cut him. This will severely hamper your control matchup where he shines. Also, he is pretty good in literally every matchup because he fixes all your splashes and can even get a basic under Blood Moon.
Also, play more lands. You just have to get your mana right and you'll win in nine cases out of ten - so there's no reason to play sub-par cards like Spell Snare which are better left to the more tempo-orientated builds like Bardo's (or any with Tarmogoyf and/or Counterbalance) rather than playing more lands... you can't get flooded as every single land drop you have granted puts you one step further towards the lategame - and every topdecked land is just as bad as a topdecked counterspell which doesn't matter since your removal/permission suite is big enough if you know what you're doing**.
There's no reason not to play the full set of Meddling Mages in the sideboard as they are great in any combo matchup (duh) and get sided in for nearly all the control matchups too - they are just way too versatile and polyvalent.

**: Don't counter something that you can't handle otherwise, always go for the maximum card advantage out of your sweepers etc - if any deck rewards playskill and a strong knoweldge of the matchups, than it is this one.



Extirpate on goyf is ok, but extirpate on goose is your first goal post board.


I have to disagree here: Tarmogoyf is the scarier threat as they only need to out-tempo you for ~2-3 turns to win. Mongoose takes longer to kill you and is handled by as many things as Goyf (Swords -> Factory).

[mossivo1986]

In my testing goose has always been the determining factor in games. Goyf simply screams swords me EE me Humility me! god I love humiliy on goyf, tis soo much fun.

[diffy]

In my testing goose has always been the determining factor in games. Goyf simply screams swords me EE me Humility me! god I love humiliy on goyf, tis soo much fun.

Mongoose is handled by:
2x Engineered Explosives
2x Humility
4x Pernicious Deed
4x Mishra's Factory


Tarmogoyf is handled by:
2x Engineered Explosives
2x Humility
4x Pernicious Deed
4x Swords to Plowshares


For sure Nimble Mongoose is a good threat against control, it just gets a lot worse than Goyf as the game goes on as you're more likely to have Factories/DoJ (preboard)/whatsoever. Even Pulse of the Fields shuts down a Mongoose in the later game - and Mongoose gives you more time to find your outs than Tarmogoyf which is the essential point since you have as many outs to Mongoose as you have to Goyf.
Now Extirpate needs you to aleady have dealt with one copy of a given threat. This means that you're in the mid- to late-game most of the time. In this situation, you're quite likely to be in a favorable position - the only chance of your opponent winning once the initial disruption plan has fizled is to mass up counters and burn to then swing and kill. This is done significantly easier with Tarmogoyfs as they beat for twice as much as Mongoose in the lategame which means that he only has to outpower you for half the amount of turns.

[mossivo1986]

Der your amazing. I didn't think it was possible to fit tolaria west in a 4c list and have it work, but you did it! God I love this card, Anyways Im testing between 3-4 deeds, and im not sure what I like right now. Especially with your mana base lightened on green. We'll see.

[ebbitten]

Sorry if this was brought up, but why the seed spark for handlight artifact/enchantments instead of something a little less coslty? (grip, disenchant?

[Aggro_zombies]

Sorry if this was brought up, but why the seed spark for handlight artifact/enchantments instead of something a little less coslty? (grip, disenchant?
Seed Spark makes guys. Granted, they're little guys, but they can still turn sideways into the Red Zone for the win.

Also, many Counter-Top players are learning to play around Grip. However, 99.9% of the time, there is no way any of the decks running Counterbalance can get a 4 cc permanent on the top.

[Tacosnape]

Also, many Counter-Top players are learning to play around Grip. However, 99.9% of the time, there is no way any of the decks running Counterbalance can get a 4 cc permanent on the top.

Mystic Enforcer will be most curious to hear this.

However, it's a fairly valid point that it's unlikely to occur.

[from Cairo]

Also, many Counter-Top players are learning to play around Grip. However, 99.9% of the time, there is no way any of the decks running Counterbalance can get a 4 cc permanent on the top.

How is it more probable that the CB player will have been constantly maintaining a 3cc on the top of their library and flip to beat Grip, than it is likely that they will just be able to outright answer Seedspark or respond by stacking their deck to counter it.

In order to play around Grip you need to keep the 3cc on top right up til your draw then move it down one deeper to avoid drawing it. To begin with most Counterbalance decks aren't running many 3 drops, but I guess once they hit one this would be a valid plan. In the meantime if you're keeping a 3cc on top the opponent runs out any non-3cc card you either don't use Counterbalance or reposition cards to answer it. If you move a non-3cc to the top and CB it, then you're exposing the CB to Grip and obviously they take the opportunity to Grip the CB.

Versus Seedspark that they can Brainstorm//Top in response to and admittedly rarely put a Mystic Enforcer on top, or they can just Force of Will or Counterspell it to protect their Counterbalance.

I don't see how one can say that Seedspark is a more reliable answer to Counterbalance than Krosan Grip. The first is suceptable to both the Counterbalance trigger and external counters, the latter can't be responded to and has to have a 3cc be preemptively placed, and maintained on top.

Obviously Seedspark shines in most other cases since the 1mana difference isn't huge, and getting a couple doods isn't bad, but against Counterbalance it definitely seems inferior.

[ebbitten]

The problem i faced was generally when i had a problematic artifact/enchantment (generally counterbalance or a moon) I cared much more about dealing with it asap than getting a dude (or nothing since the moon eats my green mana).

[Mental]

On Extirpate: Isn't the first thing you Pate Wasteland against UGR Canadian Thrash? Then you can play the rest of the match without worrying nearly as much about your mana and be able to actually play the mana intensive cards that can deal with Goose.

Thoughts?

[i_need_the_extra_turns]

On Extirpate: Isn't the first thing you Pate Wasteland against UGR Canadian Thrash? Then you can play the rest of the match without worrying nearly as much about your mana and be able to actually play the mana intensive cards that can deal with Goose.

Thoughts?

Hm... I would rather prefer to play Extirpate on Stifle. Stifle attacks your fetchies, EE and your Deed.

greetz

[The Grim Reaper]

Hey all,

I use a similar build to Tacosnape:

4 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Nantuko Monestary

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Jace Beleren
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Stifle
2 Crucible of Worlds
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Crime // Punishment

SB:
4 Sacred Ground
3 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Extirpate
4 Engineered Plague


I've been a bit underwhelmed with the Stifles, and was wondering what a good replacement for them might be. I'm sold on the rest of the deck, as it feels like I have more than enough creature control to deal with most decks. In my meta there is very little combo and a lot of Thresh/Loam/Ichorid/Survival.

I'm not necessarily looking for metagame slots to replace the stifles, but rather comments on whether or not I should cut them, and what could possibly replace them. The only thing they seem to be good for is stopping wastelands, storm spells, and the occasional fetchland. There arn't too many applications for it in my opinion in a deck that doesn't fear deed/explosives.

I would appreciate any insight into this matter.

Thanks!

[from Cairo]

Idk, Stifle is a bomb against Combo and Goblins, those and Wasteland protection are the major reasons they are in my MD - they are also fairly solid in the mirror. There are definitely some matches where they are pretty underwhelming, (non-Thrash)Threshold, Survival, most agro. Even in the matches they are underwhelming in, almost every deck has a Stifle target or two, Fetches, or CIP creatures, Cycling cards, etc.

[thefreakaccident]

Stifle is also good against ringleader, matron, seige-gang commander, ichorid, cephalid collessium, survival, and random CIP abilities survival may bring to the table...

Without wasteland, crucibles are very underwhelming and you have access to a non-counterable (well, self recurring), non-gripable card called life from the loam...


I was never a big fan of jace, I personally would run FoF instead.


EDIT: Cairo, you are pretty quick!

[Tacosnape]

Stifle isn't just for Wasteland/Storm. Stifle also helps against Goblin Lackey, Goblin Matron, Goblin Ringleader, Eternal Witness recursion triggers, Sterling Grove, Smokestack, Decree of Justice, opposing Pernicious Deeds, Engineered Explosives, etc. There's something in every deck ever for Stifle to hit to a degree.

Plus, it's crucial to point out how absolutely steamrolled you get by Wasteland without it.

You might not need it if you're packing quad (!) Sacred Ground in sideboard, though. Any reason for that? I have to say that if you're not running Meddling Mage in the sideboard you might as well not be running white. Mage is probably the single strongest sideboard card the deck has if used properly, and everything Ground stops can be stopped by something else.

EDIT: Also, everyone who complains about Jace in Taco-style 4C tends to be running insufficient threat removal. Just saying.

[The Grim Reaper]

Stifle is also good against ringleader, matron, seige-gang commander, ichorid, cephalid collessium, survival, and random CIP abilities survival may bring to the table...

Without wasteland, crucibles are very underwhelming and you have access to a non-counterable (well, self recurring), non-gripable card called life from the loam...


I was never a big fan of jace, I personally would run FoF instead.


EDIT: Cairo, you are pretty quick!

I suppose that Loam > Crucible if you arn't running wastes, I'll give you that.
How many loams should be run, just one as a single bullet?

I wonder if it would be a good idea to run extirpates in place of stifles? Extirpate is quite useful against a variety of decks, just like stifle. The only downside is its not blue, and with stifle becoming a non-blue card I'm running dangerously low on blue.

As for Jace, every single time I've dropped him he's been a house. Fact of fiction basically says pay 4, get 2 or 1 cards you want or 3-4 cards you probably don't as much. I like the card, but Jace seems so much better here. Also, Jace is another win condition if necessary. Did I mention the card looks really cool? :)

Edit:
"Stifle isn't just for Wasteland/Storm. Stifle also helps against Goblin Lackey, Goblin Matron, Goblin Ringleader, Eternal Witness recursion triggers, Sterling Grove, Smokestack, Decree of Justice, opposing Pernicious Deeds, Engineered Explosives, etc. There's something in every deck ever for Stifle to hit to a degree.

Plus, it's crucial to point out how absolutely steamrolled you get by Wasteland without it.

You might not need it if you're packing quad (!) Sacred Ground in sideboard, though. Any reason for that? I have to say that if you're not running Meddling Mage in the sideboard you might as well not be running white. Mage is probably the single strongest sideboard card the deck has if used properly, and everything Ground stops can be stopped by something else."

Yeah, I was thinking about cutting down the sacred grounds to 3 and making room for Mage in the SB. As I said, combo isn't very prevelent in my meta, so I don't know how much use they would be. Sacred ground is there for Crucible/wasteland lock as well as White Stax.

Seems like stifle is the way to go, but I'd still like to see an opinion on extirpates main/Jace :)

I'd like to get Tacosnape's opinion on these issues too, as his list is similar to mine.

[Tacosnape]

I suppose that Loam > Crucible if you arn't running wastes, I'll give you that.
How many loams should be run, just one as a single bullet?

Two if you're dealing with a lot of Stax/Pox/Wasteland heavy decks. Otherwise just one will suffice.



I wonder if it would be a good idea to run extirpates in place of stifles? Extirpate is quite useful against a variety of decks, just like stifle. The only downside is its not blue, and with stifle becoming a non-blue card I'm running dangerously low on blue.

I currently run a 3/1 Stifle/Extirpate split. I'm tinkering with a 2/2 split, and there's no way I'd ever go lower than this. Extirpate absolutely sucks in more matches than Stifle does, and in a match where both suck, Stifle's better, because Extirpate won't pitch to a Force. Play two and two if you feel too Stifle-heavy. I still like 3-1 for the time being.


As for Jace, every single time I've dropped him he's been a house. Fact of fiction basically says pay 4, get 2 or 1 cards you want or 3-4 cards you probably don't as much. I like the card, but Jace seems so much better here. Also, Jace is another win condition if necessary. Did I mention the card looks really cool? :)

Jace's strength is what he does unchecked: He wins. You'll almost never have to use his kill, because the card advantage he'll generate you if he lives long enough to go Draw/Draw/Both Draw/Draw (Or, alternately, Draw/Draw/Draw-die-PlayJace#2-Draw), will steamroll into a very bad situation for your opponent.

At the absolute worst, he cantrips and prevents 2 or more damage to you. Not a great effect for 1UU, but just think of it as a slightly pricier but on color Renewed Faith. With the potential to win you the game if the opponent can't stop it.

EDIT: Also, Meddling Mage is fantastic against White Stax, just for the record.

[The Grim Reaper]

Two if you're dealing with a lot of Stax/Pox/Wasteland heavy decks. Otherwise just one will suffice.



I currently run a 3/1 Stifle/Extirpate split. I'm tinkering with a 2/2 split, and there's no way I'd ever go lower than this. Extirpate absolutely sucks in more matches than Stifle does, and in a match where both suck, Stifle's better, because Extirpate won't pitch to a Force. Play two and two if you feel too Stifle-heavy. I still like 3-1 for the time being.



Jace's strength is what he does unchecked: He wins. You'll almost never have to use his kill, because the card advantage he'll generate you if he lives long enough to go Draw/Draw/Both Draw/Draw (Or, alternately, Draw/Draw/Draw-die-PlayJace#2-Draw), will steamroll into a very bad situation for your opponent.

At the absolute worst, he cantrips and prevents 2 or more damage to you. Not a great effect for 1UU, but just think of it as a slightly pricier but on color Renewed Faith. With the potential to win you the game if the opponent can't stop it.

EDIT: Also, Meddling Mage is fantastic against White Stax, just for the record.

Alrighty, so I think what I'll do is replace my 2 crucibles with 1 loam and 1 other card. Either 1 extirpate or perhaps a 4th stifle. Or I might go 2/2 as you suggested. Thanks for the help.

[mossivo1986]

I think it's important to note that more then 2 crucible "type" effects in a game is usually not great inless your running the 1-1 split and then it gets great.

In Der's list dredging some mishra's and then playing them via crucible can be back breaking, then at eot just discarding the LFTL and repeating until you have complete land control. If they blow them up get them back, just never miss your land drops and you should be good.

Another important note:

The deck is called LAND-Still. and its worded that way for a reason. If your never not in Complete control of a game or your tipping back and fourth then its either -1- you missed a removal or counterable target "nimble mongoose" or you missed land drops to help you maintain that advantage.

Keep in mind this archtype thrives on being the best till you hit card 0 in your library. You should be able to run your opponent out of gas, and then make your win look easy. It's getting to that point that can be alittle difficult.

Im not sure if this is a mistake or not, but I often will not activate mishra's unless I absolutely have to in blocking situations, especially against anything splashing white. "plowshares" Also if I have a game locked down and I have mishra's in play I will wait till I see decree or eternal dragon to start swinging. To me Mishra's are the best overall win condition but its the first thing your opponent goes after, so by forcing them to play their tricks on your other threats it makes mishra's inevitable and basicly they just end up slow rolling your opponent if they run out of gas or are tapped out or have nothing relevant going on.

The other thing is if you time it right you can end rounds on the 1-0 win. Just dont slow play because you'll get nabbed for that instantly, pace yourself and maintain your goal.

[ebbitten]

I run Taco's list pretty much card for card (it just seems so much more solid than that 4c cunning mana screw myself deck) and the stifles also seem underwhelming at times i've considered just running more extirpates main seeing as they deal with a ton of problematic cards and are also very rarely dead.

[diffy]

It just seems so much more solid than that 4c cunning mana screw myself deck


The manabase of 4c Cunning Landstill (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2512989&postcount=2) is actually way more solid and stable than you give it credit for. You have 7 fetchlands and 1 Eternal Dragon to have easy access to your splashes and, more importantly, your splashes are only very limited ones: you still are basically only UW Landstill with a black splash for 4 mainboard cards and a green splash for 5 mainboard cards. The splashes are also not very color-intensive so that one dual/source of the splash suffices to assure being able to cast anything. On top of that, you also have Crucible of Worlds and Life from the Loam to fix any issues with the manabase you might possible encounter.

If you compare the following manabase to the pretty stable 3c Cunning Landstill (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2559348&postcount=12) manabase:

// Lands (25)
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Tolaria West
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins
1 Wasteland

:u: Sources: 9
:w: Sources: 7
:b: Sources: 3
:g: Sources: 2

// Lands (24)
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
2 Plains
2 Island
1 Tolaria West
1 Academy Ruins
1 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory

:u: Sources: 9
:w: Sources: 7
:b: Sources: 3

You are basically trading an Island for a Tropical Island and a Plains for a Savannah which makes you only more un-stable against Blood Moon (same color-distribution concerning your two main colors Blue and White) whille adding in more stability by adding in another fetchland.

If you now compare this to Tacosnape's manabase which looks something like this:

// Lands (24)
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins

:u: Sources: 11
:w: Sources: 4
:b: Sources: 3
:g: Sources: 4

You basically only have two green source less (same amount of fetches due to Eternal Dragon) - but this is compensated by running less cards in the splash (in those kind of manabases, stuff like Garruk or Tarmogoyf are an additional strain on your colors, the former because of the doulbed cost and the later because you want to play it early - in 4c Cunning Landstill you only need green for Pernicious Deed, Life from the Loam and... nothing else - same is true for the black splash [Diabolic Edict isn't run in 4c Cunning Landstill giving you more color stability because you only need to go for your two splashes when you want a Deed]), a land more and CoW/LftL - also, the Cunning Landstill manabase has 2 basics implemented into it which could easily be switched to more duals if Blood Moon/Back to Basics are absolutely no concern in your meta.
You also play two Blue Sources less - but you still have the same amount of Blue sources as in UWb Cunning Landstill which is completely enough (the deck is more White-centric than normal versions and doesn't need double Blue that desperately because it can handle stuff otherwise much more efficiently).
For sure the Cunning Landstill list is more white intensive due to Humility but you're also playing way more white sources than this list (7 > 4) - as many as a strictly UWb List.
I'm not saying that the manabase is better than Taco's, this would be not true, especially since Taco plays Stifle, but the manabase is way better than you give it credit for and than many people think - it is just as consistent as a 3c Manabase which already rarely has problems, with regards to reaching white mana, and very close to as consistent as an 'American' Manabase with regards to reaching black and green, you just have to play a little tighter sometimes, leaving fetchlands uncracked as long as possible and not going for excess colored sources (for instance, I rarely go for Blue Duals when I've already got two out although this is the default play in most other Landstill versions).



I've considered just running more Extirpates main seeing as they deal with a ton of problematic cards and are also very rarely dead

I strongly disaprove of this: you don't want stuff that is card-disadvantage nine times out of ten in a deck that wins based on card advantage. Also, Extirpates are pretty often dead draws as they're not influencing the current board state. If you want access to Extirpates preboard, just play Cunning Wish which is never dead due to being more flexible and sometimes even game-breaking (fetching Pulse of the Fields or Enlightened Tutor for Humility).

[Tacosnape]

Just for the record, my manabase doesn't, hasn't, and never will include Academy Ruins, nor have I ever or will ever run the card in Landstill. I don't even run an artifact in my entire 75.

Any manabase reference to me, while this doesn't necessarily make my deck more consistent, looks like this:

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Nantuko Monestary

That's the same manabase I've been running for the last year. It's never changed short of the occasional foray with a 7th fetchland in place of a Tropical, until I remember I don't like dying to Stifle, upon which it resets to normal.

So the correct numbers for me would be 10/4/4/4, or 18/10/10/10 if you factor in the fetchlands and are counting ways to hit the source rather than the actual source itself.

[mossivo1986]

I understand where your comming from tacosnape, and it probobly makes sense. Ruins for me is personal preferance.

I like the ability to stop people from countering a relavent crucible over and over "as they know I will have the ability to drop it the next turn ANYWAYS."

I also like the mishra explosion technique where your opponent plays a threat, you cast ee. sac and attack. Then ruins it back to your hand if they play another threat. Its a very usefull little combo and it works especially well against decks like mono black disruption mid-late game as they basicly dont have any card advantage on you. So having and endless removal "MACHINE!!!!" is pretty cool, and not a way to win.

I'm currently testing der's new build. Although I like having a fourth deed in the md, I do not like not having spell snares. This is really sort of a bad position to be in.

[The Grim Reaper]

I understand where your comming from tacosnape, and it probobly makes sense. Ruins for me is personal preferance.

I like the ability to stop people from countering a relavent crucible over and over "as they know I will have the ability to drop it the next turn ANYWAYS."

I also like the mishra explosion technique where your opponent plays a threat, you cast ee. sac and attack. Then ruins it back to your hand if they play another threat. Its a very usefull little combo and it works especially well against decks like mono black disruption mid-late game as they basicly dont have any card advantage on you. So having and endless removal "MACHINE!!!!" is pretty cool, and not a way to win.

I'm currently testing der's new build. Although I like having a fourth deed in the md, I do not like not having spell snares. This is really sort of a bad position to be in.

If you like utilizing crucible over and over again and are running green, you should just use life from the loam. :)

The best thing about academy ruins is the EE/ruins combo, as you said. I just don't think that 4 color landstill can afford to run the 7th colourless source. I'm already tight for colour in the early game; I cant afford to not be able to play early counterspells.

Taco - any reason you run Diabolic Edict over EE? Running 4x Deed and 3x EE has been a jesus-send for me. I almost always have answers to pertinent threats.

[mossivo1986]

If you like utilizing crucible over and over again and are running green, you should just use life from the loam. :)

The best thing about academy ruins is the EE/ruins combo, as you said. I just don't think that 4 color landstill can afford to run the 7th colourless source. I'm already tight for colour in the early game; I cant afford to not be able to play early counterspells.

Taco - any reason you run Diabolic Edict over EE? Running 4x Deed and 3x EE has been a jesus-send for me. I almost always have answers to pertinent threats.

-LFTL comment. It's a 1-1 split between crucible and LFTL.

-It's not a seventh colorless source, it's a 6th. The seventh source is tolaria west, which is actually a spell slot, "props to der and wasteland for finally showing how to fit it in, and wow omg it works well."

Your problem is your thinking too hard. As der said all the heavy white splash landstill's are early game u/w control decks, sometimes u/w/b. But never u/w/g/b. It doesnt work if you play it like that. In fact I cant remember the last time I layed a t3 deed. I probobly lost though I can tell you that much. Inless your already in hand having the colors and the deed and theres nothing you can do about it, AND you have 0 counters, theres really no reason to extended yourself out that far.

Just go like this
Tundra
Underground sea
Tundra
Tropical island

Simple. If you have mishra's and need it early replace tropical island wish mishra's. This is not overly difficult stuff.

Also ive been noticing alot of disruption decks right now in my metagame. Alot of black x discard, do these meta's shift like standard where its kind of flavor of the week stuff?

[The Grim Reaper]

-LFTL comment. It's a 1-1 split between crucible and LFTL.

-It's not a seventh colorless source, it's a 6th. The seventh source is tolaria west, which is actually a spell slot, "props to der and wasteland for finally showing how to fit it in, and wow omg it works well."

Your problem is your thinking too hard. As der said all the heavy white splash landstill's are early game u/w control decks, sometimes u/w/b. But never u/w/g/b. It doesnt work if you play it like that. In fact I cant remember the last time I layed a t3 deed. I probobly lost though I can tell you that much. Inless your already in hand having the colors and the deed and theres nothing you can do about it, AND you have 0 counters, theres really no reason to extended yourself out that far.

Just go like this
Tundra
Underground sea
Tundra
Tropical island

Simple. If you have mishra's and need it early replace tropical island wish mishra's. This is not overly difficult stuff.

Also ive been noticing alot of disruption decks right now in my metagame. Alot of black x discard, do these meta's shift like standard where its kind of flavor of the week stuff?

Tolaria West seems like an interesting card to run in a spell slot. I might give that a try. It sounds like you only run 1 Nantuko Monestary now that you can fetch it with West. That makes sense I suppose. The rest of your comments didn't make a lot of sense. Of course I know that most of the time you don't play deeds on turn 3. I'm just saying that the more colorless sources you run, the greater chance of you being unable to cast early game UU spells like Counterspell/Jace.

In terms of metagame shifts, I think that each metagame is different. My meta doesn't have a lot of black x discard, but it could be possible that people are shifting towards those kind of decks, as they generally have a strong matchup against Thresh.

[mossivo1986]

I run der's list now. Im currently testing the configuration he's got. For referance.

// Lands
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [UNH] Island
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
1 [UNH] Plains
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [B] Savannah
1 [B] Scrubland
1 [B] Tropical Island
4 [B] Tundra
2 [B] Underground Sea
1 [TE] Wasteland
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [FUT] Tolaria West

// Creatures
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [IA] Counterspell
1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [TE] Humility
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 1 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [RAV] Seed Spark
SB: 1 [FUT] Slaughter Pact


The tolaria west is in there to grab

1 of tutor wasteland
academy ruins
mishra's factory under a standstill softlock.
Engineered explosives for a bit oh mass removal.

[Mister Agent]

I run der's list now. Im currently testing the configuration he's got. For referance.

// Lands
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [UNH] Island
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
1 [UNH] Plains
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [B] Savannah
1 [B] Scrubland
1 [B] Tropical Island
4 [B] Tundra
2 [B] Underground Sea
1 [TE] Wasteland
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [FUT] Tolaria West

// Creatures
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [IA] Counterspell
1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [TE] Humility
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 1 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [RAV] Seed Spark
SB: 1 [FUT] Slaughter Pact


The tolaria west is in there to grab

1 of tutor wasteland
academy ruins
mishra's factory under a standstill softlock.
Engineered explosives for a bit oh mass removal.

I always have been a big fan of Der's 4c landstill list.

Cunning wish just makes 4c landstill run more smoother and more efficiently in my opinion. Another thing I like about tolaria west is that it can indirectly stabalize your manabase better in terms of colors.(example: you won't have to run as many colorless lands particularly wasteland with Tolaria west)

I also like Der's list because you don't really need to change it really from metagame to metagame since the deck is already as flexible as is generally speaking anyway.

Der Imaginure Freund is one of those masterminds when it comes to building landstill for legacy. At least in my opinion.

[mossivo1986]

I become more of a believer every time I test his ideas.

"I also like Der's list because you don't really need to change it really from metagame to metagame since the deck is already as flexible as is generally speaking anyway"

I disagree alittle bit, but its only because the deck has a really difficult time with random burn/ hater decks. this model is rediculously good though. I can tell you i've personally never been unhappy with any of the changes, and the fact that he moved up in the land count made me happy. The less consistently I get mana screwed the more I win. I also can't tell you how manytimes ive been stuck at 1 land because of 2X wasteland and come back roaring, it's just a testiment to how powerfull this deck can be on the right draws.

You make your land drops, you win. You miss them and your chances of loss rise with every passing turn.

[mossivo1986]

heres a good question for the board.

Theres a new card in shadowmoore that has recently been spoiled.

1G
Enchantment:
All lands you control count as each basic land type.

To me this screams kill dragonstompy, as they dont run enchantment removal and it makes bloodmoon absolutely worthless. Wouldn't this be playable in 4 c IF you maindecked 1 forest?

I know it sounds kind of bad, but I think its playable because of how horendous that matchup tends to be. Especially with players maindecking akroma angel of fury.

[Mister Agent]

I become more of a believer every time I test his ideas.

"I also like Der's list because you don't really need to change it really from metagame to metagame since the deck is already as flexible as is generally speaking anyway"

I disagree alittle bit, but its only because the deck has a really difficult time with random burn/ hater decks. this model is rediculously good though. I can tell you i've personally never been unhappy with any of the changes, and the fact that he moved up in the land count made me happy. The less consistently I get mana screwed the more I win. I also can't tell you how manytimes ive been stuck at 1 land because of 2X wasteland and come back roaring, it's just a testiment to how powerfull this deck can be on the right draws.

You make your land drops, you win. You miss them and your chances of loss rise with every passing turn.


Well making land drops on a consistent basis is one of the biggest fundamentals when building and also playing any type of pure control. Also I am sure you do disagree to a extent considering no deck is optimal against everything. But you should be able to win the burn matchup considering you have cunning wish into pulse of the fields unless of course they force through an red elemental blast on your wish.

There is also not really much you can do about the hate decks either but if your prepared for most of the field I'd say I wouldn't worry about it.

Also if your worried about the dragon stompy matchup I would run a couple of nevinyrral's disks considering they still fit your overall game plan or play an 3 color landstill deck. Nevin's disk sounds like a more tuned strategy then running the basic land enchantment from shadowmoor at least in my opinion.

[Van Phanel]

heres a good question for the board.

Theres a new card in shadowmoore that has recently been spoiled.

1G
Enchantment:
All lands you control count as each basic land type.

To me this screams kill dragonstompy, as they dont run enchantment removal and it makes bloodmoon absolutely worthless. Wouldn't this be playable in 4 c IF you maindecked 1 forest?

I know it sounds kind of bad, but I think its playable because of how horendous that matchup tends to be. Especially with players maindecking akroma angel of fury.

Sorry but that won't work. If you cast it first, then they play a Moon-effect, your lands will be mountains (and only mountains) thanks to timestamps. If however they get their Moon-effect first, you won't be able to produce any green mana.

Even if it would work, a card that is that narrow would never find its place in Landstill. After all you play broader solutions to anything. Also note that an 1G-enchantment + Deed = not a combo.

[The Grim Reaper]

Yeah that new enchantment isn't too useful. I'd like to start a discussion on Jace:

I'm going to have to disagree with some people here regarding Jace. Most people either run Jace, Fact or fiction, or some random utility cards in these slots (edict, etc.). Its likely that I would run either Jace or Fact or Fiction if I had the choice. In my opinion, Jace is superior to Fact in Landstill for a few reasons:

1. Jace is a win condition. I don't mean that so much as in the "-10, mill for 20" sense, but in the "I draw an extra card every turn for the rest of the game" sense. When you sweep the board of all threats and drop a Jace down, your opponent MUST answer it, or they will lose. Fact or fiction does not do this.

2. Jace is tough to kill without creatures. In a deck that runs so much creature removal (11 slots), its not too much of a challenge to protect your Jace mid-game (which is when you want to drop him). There arn't that many cards which kill plainswalkers in the current meta. Sure, burn and creatures make short work of him, but if you're being attacked and burned to death, you have other problems.

3. Jace is blue and costs 3. Not that you'll be playing Jace early, but its nice to have a cycling damage sponge early on if you need another land drop to save yourself. Force of will bait doesn't hurt either.

The best arguments against Jace that I see, are that he draws cards slowly when compared to fact or fiction, and is vulnerable in situations when you are facing massive creature hordes. People say that Jace seems like a "win-more" card, but really, Jace is just like standstill. You clear the board and drop a Standstill OR Jace, and let the card advantage roll in. Try it out, its a good card!

[mossivo1986]

Jace could be amazing in the right combination, but keep in mind that no 2 landstill hands are ever the same. Some have alot of counters in them and some have alot of removal and some have alot of draw spells in them, and then there are the generalized hands with a combination of all 3 minus the land you need. :(

[Burr]

For those of you running 4c landstill with loam, how is life from the loam working out as a 1/1 split between loam and crucible? Does the additional green card throw off your mana base? How often do you use the dredge, does it ever hurt?

I've thought of running the 1/1 split but loam doesnt seem very synergetic in landstill, as the dredge seems like it would hurt more than help.

[The Grim Reaper]

For those of you running 4c landstill with loam, how is life from the loam working out as a 1/1 split between loam and crucible? Does the additional green card throw off your mana base? How often do you use the dredge, does it ever hurt?

I've thought of running the 1/1 split but loam doesnt seem very synergetic in landstill, as the dredge seems like it would hurt more than help.

Loam is amazing in Landstill. It is better then crucible because if they counter it or make you discard it, you can simply dredge it back to your hand. The only advantage crucible has over loam is that it doesn't require green mana. I think that if you are running green, most people consider a 1-1 split or a solitary loam the way to go.

I only dredge loam if i need to refill my hand with lands or need to recur manlands in order to chump block for a while (Most man-lands seem to get STP'ed unfortunately :( ). Normally, it isn't hard to find a green source if you have a stable mana-base.

[Burr]

Loam is amazing in Landstill. It is better then crucible because if they counter it or make you discard it, you can simply dredge it back to your hand. The only advantage crucible has over loam is that it doesn't require green mana. I think that if you are running green, most people consider a 1-1 split or a solitary loam the way to go.

I only dredge loam if i need to refill my hand with lands or need to recur manlands in order to chump block for a while (Most man-lands seem to get STP'ed unfortunately :( ). Normally, it isn't hard to find a green source if you have a stable mana-base.

But is dredging really worth it? how often do you see yourself dredging away a deed or maybe a needed stp.

[kabal]

But is dredging really worth it? how often do you see yourself dredging away a deed or maybe a needed stp.

I think you need to read this (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/10898.html).

[mossivo1986]

I wont go into great detail but I can tell you if you have life from the loam dredging and crucible in play odds are your winning the game and only looking for more mishra's factories.

Also LFTL allows you to dig for academy ruins + EE while maintaining your land drops per tern AND allows you to hit that one of crucible via ruins, or tolaria west into ruins. LFTL is priceless card advantage and it makes me very sad not to run the cycling lands as one ofs, but its still incredibly good without them.

Like I said MANY times, if your making your land drops every turn VERY few decks in the format can deal with that. The exception I would think to this rule might be with combo decks, and 43 land.dec, they just out run you anyways.

[vigilante]

....LFTL is priceless card advantage....


I think you need to read this (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/10898.html).
See Myth #2. Increasing your hand size by returning lands from your graveyard isn't card advantage per se, with the exception of Mishra's Factories/Nantuko Monasteries (which double as threats).

[Mental]

See Myth #2. Increasing your hand size by returning lands from your graveyard isn't card advantage per se, with the exception of Mishra's Factories/Nantuko Monasteries (which double as threats).

That could be why it's CA. It's even better if you run Wasteland (not that that works in 4c)

[DuKeLiO]

See Myth #2. Increasing your hand size by returning lands from your graveyard isn't card advantage per se, with the exception of Mishra's Factories/Nantuko Monasteries (which double as threats).

LftL IS CA per se. When you are recurring your lands and making a land drop every turn playing fetchlands and thining your library you have access to more cards beacuse the threats-lands ratio in your library is greater. Also you are playing lands every turn and you can play more spells beacuse you have more maná. Also you haven´t to retain lands in your hand with Brainstorm and you can put it in your library to fetch it away, transforming your Brainstorms into Ancestral Recall. Also if you are recurring Wastelands you are obtaining CA beacuse you are nullifing a card of your oponent with one of the lands you are recurring with the loam, and the other 2 are for free.
But LftL isn't in landstill to lock your oponent with Wasteland. It is an useful resource, invaluable against Land denial decks, beacuse every hand with fetchland + another land and Lftl is almos auto-keep. It also help to don't go without win conditions beacuse you have to cycle your Decrees for early defense and your factories were destroyed. I played a lone Lftl for this utility for some months now, and I were very very well in tournaments. I haven´t changed a card for three months now and I went 37 wins, 5 draws and 4 losses on tournament rounds.

I run this list:
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Cunning Wish
2 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Humility
2 Decree of Justice
1 Eternal Dragon
1 Life from the Loam
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Tundra
2 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
SB:
4 Meddling Mage
4 Extirpate
3 Engineered Plague
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Pulse of the fields
1 Dismantling Blow
1 Slaughter Pact

Crucible isn't a very good card in Landstill. Sure, it is good and very powerful sometimes, but it is slow and not so dificult to stop. It is a win more card beacuse if your are in the late game you will win the game with or without crucible.

[vigilante]

LftL IS CA per se. When you are recurring your lands and making a land drop every turn playing fetchlands and thining your library you have access to more cards beacuse the threats-lands ratio in your library is greater.


I think you need to read this (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/10898.html).

See Myth #3: The Relevance of Land Thinning (or more accurately, the irrelevance of land thinning).

Issues of "does returning lands from your graveyard to your hand constitute card advantage" aside, I should point out that I'm absolutely all for Loam's inclusion in Landstill -- I run my singleton copy alongside a Crucible (and have even been considering switching out said Crucible for a second Loam). Loam is undeniably a powerful spell and should certainly be included in any green-splash build of the deck.....but saying that Loam is a source of card advantage on top of all its other benefits is misleading. As Mr Feldman says regarding Myth #2:

Not all card advantage is created equal; no matter how often people may talk like it is.
So sure, after you play a Loam, you'll typically have 3 extra cards in hand at the cost of 1 (the Loam). Technically this is card advantage, but it's no substitute for true card advantage, where you've increased the number of business spells in hand.

End pseudo-card advantage rant.

[Peter_Rotten]

Please note that we now have a separate thread devoted to UW(x) Landstill (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9280) builds. Direct all appropriate discussion there.

[Bardo]

Also note that I'm drafting the UBGx (Deed and 4c) intro. Once we have both up, this thread will be closed and the discussions can continue in that appropriate place.

[Burr]

What would you guys say are the "tricks" to playing 4c landstill? When is the best time to play/crack deed? I'm just picking up 4c and dont have many ppl to test with, so your guys tips would be great!

[landstill101]

See Myth #3: The Relevance of Land Thinning (or more accurately, the irrelevance of land thinning).

Issues of "does returning lands from your graveyard to your hand constitute card advantage" aside, I should point out that I'm absolutely all for Loam's inclusion in Landstill -- I run my singleton copy alongside a Crucible (and have even been considering switching out said Crucible for a second Loam). Loam is undeniably a powerful spell and should certainly be included in any green-splash build of the deck.....but saying that Loam is a source of card advantage on top of all its other benefits is misleading. As Mr Feldman says regarding Myth #2:

So sure, after you play a Loam, you'll typically have 3 extra cards in hand at the cost of 1 (the Loam). Technically this is card advantage, but it's no substitute for true card advantage, where you've increased the number of business spells in hand.

End pseudo-card advantage rant.

After reading the whole point of card advantage by using it to get fetchlands and stuff is competly untrue, this person is turning math into myth just because he didn't have enough to write about, if you don't believe me do that math, if you have 40 cards in the deck and need a deed and theres only 2 left, you have a 5%, but if you play a fetch land and fetch now you have only 39 cards and your chances are 5.2% and it also it decreases the chances of getting a land from say 15 lands to 14 which would decrease by .2%, and i'm not sure about a bunch of you always worried about having land drops, having more than about 6-8(not counting factories) is more than enough for me and I dont want to see another land. yes it doesnt seem much but after fetchin 10 times and recuring fetches, it does add up and I would take that 1%any day of the week if it means I win the one extra game that gets me more money

[DuKeLiO]

See Myth #3: The Relevance of Land Thinning (or more accurately, the irrelevance of land thinning).

Issues of "does returning lands from your graveyard to your hand constitute card advantage" aside, I should point out that I'm absolutely all for Loam's inclusion in Landstill -- I run my singleton copy alongside a Crucible (and have even been considering switching out said Crucible for a second Loam). Loam is undeniably a powerful spell and should certainly be included in any green-splash build of the deck.....but saying that Loam is a source of card advantage on top of all its other benefits is misleading. As Mr Feldman says regarding Myth #2:

So sure, after you play a Loam, you'll typically have 3 extra cards in hand at the cost of 1 (the Loam). Technically this is card advantage, but it's no substitute for true card advantage, where you've increased the number of business spells in hand.

End pseudo-card advantage rant.

I never said that the top benefit of LftL is that it is a card advantage source. I rarely dredge more than two or three times in a game LftL, I use it to asure my land drops for some turns. Sure, LftL isn't a recursive Ancestral Recall, but it is an utility than asures you some land drops and mana stability in a deck that no loses games when you can play a land per turn and you haven't color-mana screws. But it provees card advantage, it provees your three lands, three cards to Brainstorm away, or three lands than you don`t have to hold with Brainstorm beacuse you already have plenty of lands in hand.

[Solpugid]

After reading the whole point of card advantage by using it to get fetchlands and stuff is competly untrue, this person is turning math into myth just because he didn't have enough to write about, if you don't believe me do that math, if you have 40 cards in the deck and need a deed and theres only 2 left, you have a 5%, but if you play a fetch land and fetch now you have only 39 cards and your chances are 5.2% and it also it decreases the chances of getting a land from say 15 lands to 14 which would decrease by .2%, and i'm not sure about a bunch of you always worried about having land drops, having more than about 6-8(not counting factories) is more than enough for me and I dont want to see another land. yes it doesnt seem much but after fetchin 10 times and recuring fetches, it does add up and I would take that 1%any day of the week if it means I win the one extra game that gets me more money

But see, then you're falling into the myth that life loss from fetchlands doesn't matter, which also isn't true after fetching 10 times.

You're right, fetchlands do perform some thinning, and over time will decrease your chances of drawing unneeded lands. However, playing extra fetches for this purpose is poor deck design because it unnecessarily hurts your game against aggro. Play them for color fixing, wasteland-protection, and shuffling after brainstorm, NOT thinning.

[thefreakaccident]

Perhaps Tacosnape should write the intro for the deck, as he seems to be the best qualified and has a lot of experience with the general arch-type of American landstill (i.e. more blue based with deed et all).

[Tacosnape]

Perhaps Tacosnape should write the intro for the deck, as he seems to be the best qualified and has a lot of experience with the general arch-type of American landstill (i.e. more blue based with deed et all).

Except that A. I wasn't asked, B. Bardo's already writing it and he's probably a better writer than I am, C. I don't generally post in Landstill threads anymore unless my name's mentioned. And imho, we'll be lucky if the new UBGx thread doesn't degenerate into endless back and forth questions about whether or not the white splash is worth it and whether or not you should run Tarmogoyf, and stifle (no pun intended) any relevant conversation about the deck.

Your vote of confidence is appreciated, though.:)

[mossivo1986]

I would just like to say before this thread closes I have learned SO much from alot of you. From tacosnape to Agentfunk to der. You are all great deck builders and theorists from what I have seen. Never have I fealt so comfortable with an entire metagame of decks besides for 1 and done so well that I seariously can't believe more people don't try to abuse these same concepts.

On a side note I will be at gp indi playing the side event and I will hope to see you all there. "mostly because landstill mirrors are the best :("

For the innovations
For the decklists
For the theory

I thank you all.

-Joel Ferris
aka
mossivo1986

[Mister Agent]

I would just like to say before this thread closes I have learned SO much from alot of you. From tacosnape to Agentfunk to der. You are all great deck builders and theorists from what I have seen. Never have I fealt so comfortable with an entire metagame of decks besides for 1 and done so well that I seariously can't believe more people don't try to abuse these same concepts.

On a side note I will be at gp indi playing the side event and I will hope to see you all there. "mostly because landstill mirrors are the best :("

For the innovations
For the decklists
For the theory

I thank you all.

-Joel Ferris
aka
mossivo1986

Wish I could actually go to the gp side event and play against compotent players but I can't considering I really don't have that much money. ;)

Also I appreciate your comments about me but to be honest I think Der Imaginure Freund is better then me in all aspects of building landstill decklists. Of course he also spend hours testing his UWb landstill list so that is the large part on why I think he is better then me in that respect.

DIF also has access to much more legacy tournaments then I do as well and to me that is a large plus.

[Bardo]

This thread has recently been restarted and split into the following topics:

* UW(x) (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9280)
* UBG(x) (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9413)

Please continue the discussion there.