[Single Card Discussion] Gifts Ungiven

[sammiel]

I did a search and didn't find a thread on this, so l thought I would start one.

What is this card missing for legacy? In a format full of cards that are good in both the graveyard and hand, this spell which is/was used in every other constructed format that allowed it, yet I don't see it played in legacy.

I assume that it's because the fundamental turn of legacy happens somewhere between 2-4, and setup cards that cost 4 mana are too slow.

One of the fundamental legacy rules seems to be that you have to be able to answer both goblins and aggro. The only way I've managed this so far is a UWG gifts deck that focuses on anti-combo while buying time against aggro to set up a confinement lock. Unfortunately, I think I still have a bad matchup against solidarity, not a great one against goblins, and probably an absolutely terrible one against threshold.



So I'm pretty sure my deck, while worth a little bit of testing, won't actually ever be taken to a tournament.

Can anyone come up with a playable gifts deck for this format?

[Kazadoom]

http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5326
u check here :D right under your nose!

but i didnt find anything else so far

[Sea R Hill]

hum, this list is terrible...

[Cavius The Great]

Doesn't Tog run Gifts? That's a fairly popular utilization of the card.

[outsideangel]

Gifts Ungiven is an incredibly powerful card, in that, if you have a way to use the graveyard, it tutors for four (4) cards. The problem is that this requires a) a way to use cards in the graveyard and b) four singletons powerful enough to warrant the 4-mana investment.

If you're just using it as a utility tutor, then something like Intuition is probably better, given that it costs less and you can find 3-ofs.

What I think the card really needs to be broken is a Gifts pile that wins the game for a reasonable about of mana. That's what makes it so busted in Type 1: your pile just wins.

So, come up with a winning Gifts pile, and you've got a deck in the making.

[Cavius The Great]

So, come up with a winning Gifts pile, and you've got a deck in the making.

That reminds me of the mizzium/time vault thread. Very insightful.

[emidln]

Gifts for Recoup, Reanimate, Cabal Ritual, Buried Alive. Add Intuitions to your deck as well. Make sure to add in 4x Dark Rit to power out early Gifts. Kill with kiki-jiki/sky hussar/karmic guide. The deck can support at least 12 disruption slots, so add in enough blue for FoW, play Duress, and consider MisD.

[Cavius The Great]

How would Karmic Guide be better than Living Death?

[Jaynel]

Living Death can't be Buried Alive and Reanimated.

[Benie Bederios]

I'm started playing Legacy Gifts and it is quite satisfactionary. With Empty the Warrens we have a kill that looks like the Vintage kill with Colossus. Legacy has got enough bombs to use for the deck. It's still in an early stage of development, when I have a list with potential I will post it.

[Tacosnape]

I'm started playing Legacy Gifts and it is quite satisfactionary.

Satisfactionary? Is that like, Satisfactory Pictionary?

But I agree with outsideangel. The cards in Legacy just aren't as ridiculously broken by themselves as in Vintage, and thereby Gifts ends up sucking. It's bad in combo (And this includes reanimator) because it's way too incredibly slow. It might be more playable in Control if there was a 4x Stack worth getting. And using it in aggro seems a bit....strange.

[outsideangel]

Gifts for Recoup, Reanimate, Cabal Ritual, Buried Alive. Add Intuitions to your deck as well. Make sure to add in 4x Dark Rit to power out early Gifts. Kill with kiki-jiki/sky hussar/karmic guide. The deck can support at least 12 disruption slots, so add in enough blue for FoW, play Duress, and consider MisD.

Why Cabal Ritual? Wouldn't Dark Ritual be a better choice? Also, total mana cost (using Dark Ritual) is:

B + 1R + 2B + 3R + B - BBB = BRR5.

Cabal Ritual takes 1 more off the cost if you have Threshold, but 1 less off if you don't.


For reference, Mizzium/Vault off of Gifts costs:

W/U + W + 2 + 3 + 3 = (W/U)W8
-or-
U + 2UU + 2 + 3 = UUU7

[iOWN]

Salvagers Stack: Auriok Salvagers, LED, Reanimate, Exhume (or Recoup in certain circumstances).

Highest is 6 mana (Salvagers and a reanimate spell: four mana to play and two to return LED). Salvagers + LED is four mana, just play him, then LED. Reanimate and Exhume is three mana; one to return Salvagers, two to get back LED. Reanimate and LED is one mana; return Salvagers and win. Lastly, Exhume + LED = two mana, return Salvagers and win.

The problem is that it only gets infinite mana but does not automatically win the game. That means you need another piece in hand, so it is a little harder to set up. If you have a Spellbomb or cantripy artifact in hand you can just proceed as normal, but something like Trinket Mage in hand you can replace Exhume with Recoup, but it makes everything cost more. I'm working on something right now, but it ended up being 5c and the manabase is horrid.

[Cavius The Great]

Why Cabal Ritual? Wouldn't Dark Ritual be a better choice? Also, total mana cost (using Dark Ritual) is:

B + 1R + 2B + 3R + B - BBB = BRR5.

Cabal Ritual takes 1 more off the cost if you have Threshold, but 1 less off if you don't.


For reference, Mizzium/Vault off of Gifts costs:

W/U + W + 2 + 3 + 3 = (W/U)W8
-or-
U + 2UU + 2 + 3 = UUU7

Most of those calculations are inaccurate due to the fact that you play Gifts at the end of your opponent's turn, making the combo significantly cheaper.

As for Karmic Guide, it only nets you one creature from the yard, what other means do you have for netting both creatures? In other words, I need for someone to clarify the combo for me.

[torgar]

Extended Tron used Gifts to fetch up the lock of Petrified Field, Crucible of Worlds, Academy Ruins, Mindslaver. That seems alittle slow for Legacy but it's something to think about. Mindslaver could be replaced by another artifact lock element.

[iOWN]

As for Karmic Guide, it only nets you one creature from the yard, what other means do you have for netting both creatures? In other words, I need for someone to clarify the combo for me.

The creatures are not in the Gifts stack. You get Buried Alive + Reanimate as the combo, and Buried alive finds Guide, Kiki, and Hussar. Reanimate returns Guide, which follows into Kiki, which copies guide and returns Hussar to go infinite tokens with haste.

Also, about the Mindslaver stack, couldn't you do the same thing with Intuition into Loam-Ruins-Slaver?

[outsideangel]

Most of those calculations are inaccurate due to the fact that you play Gifts at the end of your opponent's turn, making the combo significantly cheaper.

Actually, I wasn't counting the cost of Gifts Ungiven in any of those calculations. If there are any inaccurasies, please point them out and I'll do an edit.

[torgar]

Also, about the Mindslaver stack, couldn't you do the same thing with Intuition into Loam-Ruins-Slaver?

Yes, and I do. I have a Confinement-Loam-Squee deck with for such broken things. I use Intuition. I tried playing Gifts, but it was just too expensive.. and if your ancipating to fetch things to abuse your yard, the extra mana for the extra card in hand isn't really worth it.

[Brushwagg]

Why isn't Gifts played in Legacy, we don't have Black Lotus, Moxes(that don't force a pitch) and that one card called Yawgmoth Wins (Don't mention IGG because it's no where close).

In Legacy Intuition will always be played more sice it costs 1 less and see above.

[Bongo]

I actually think that we're not looking hard enough to break Gifts.

It has been played in Block, Standard, Extended and Vintage. I don't see why it shouldn't be at least viable in Legacy.

[Illissius]

Block, Standard, and Extended don't have Intuition, and Vintage has the restricted list including Yawgmoth's Will. That said, there aren't very many decks based on Intuition, either, beyond the occasional Loamatog, so there should be something abusing at least one of them.

[outsideangel]

The only deck type I could really see Gifts being used in as a simple dig/draw spell would be in a Landstill variant, maybe Duck Hunt or whatever. Looking at an empty board, a Gifts for Standstill, FoF, Damnation/Wrath, and Disk doesn't seem too bad.

[ACME_Myst]

Hmm, I was wondering when this discussion would come up. I've been tinkering with a gifts list over the last couple of weeks, and this is what I'm currently running. Figured it might be useful to post it here.

The list:

//lands (19)
2 flooded strand
4 polluted delta
1 seat of the synod
1 snow-covered island
3 underground sea
3 volcanic island
5 island

//accel (12)
4 lotus petal
4 dark ritual
4 cabal ritual

//protection (9)
4 counterspell
4 force of will
1 misdirection

//win (2)
1 tendrils of agony
1 empty the warrens

//draw/tutors (14)
4 brainstorm
4 merchant scroll
1 mystical tutor
1 fact or fiction
3 gifts ungiven
1 thirst for knowledge

//utility (4)
1 chain of vapor
1 echoing truth
1 ill-gotten gains
1 recoup

It's been doing rather well, the gameplan is essentially to play control and setup for the first couple of turns, then combo out around turn 4/5.

[Benie Bederios]

hello,

That was the list that I used as base. I got from a dutch wesbite. I only made some minor changes.

The real power of Gifts over Intuition is, that it puts 2 cards in hand, so actually drawing a card. A Gift for, for example, Lion's Eye Diamond, Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual and Rite of Flame, gives you two manacards instead of one.

BB

[ACME_Myst]

lol, yeah, you probably got it from a dutch website, since i also posted it on nedermagic ;).

Could you, either on these boards or via pm on nedermagic, send me your revised list? I'm rather curious about it.

[BreathWeapon]

Gifts Ungiven has interesting interactions with Reanimator, either the card sets up a reanimation on its own, Buried Alive (Sutured Ghoul, Denizan of the Deep, Denizan of the Deep) , Exhume, Recoup and Burning Wish (or a Dark Ritual or a Cabal Ritual with Threshold) or it can set up a creature, Denizan of the Deep with evasion, Wonder, or Haste, Anger. The deck can also use Show and Tell, one of the most underrated cards in the entire format, in order to turn the combo pile into a tutor chain for Show and Tell with a creature in hand.

I also imagine there are some interesting combos out there with Gifts Ungiven and Nostalgic Dreams, perhaps some form of U/g High Tide.

[hi-val]

Block, Standard, and Extended don't have Intuition, and Vintage has the restricted list including Yawgmoth's Will. That said, there aren't very many decks based on Intuition, either, beyond the occasional Loamatog, so there should be something abusing at least one of them.

Gifts also gives you two cards instead of one, which makes a pretty significant difference. That's why Gifts is played over Intuition in Vintage. A single mana for an entire new card is pretty damn good.

[Cavius The Great]

Gifts Ungiven has interesting interactions with Reanimator, either the card sets up a reanimation on its own, Buried Alive (Sutured Ghoul, Denizan of the Deep, Denizan of the Deep) , Exhume, Recoup and Burning Wish (or a Dark Ritual or a Cabal Ritual with Threshold) or it can set up a creature, Denizan of the Deep with evasion, Wonder, or Haste, Anger. The deck can also use Show and Tell, one of the most underrated cards in the entire format, in order to turn the combo pile into a tutor chain for Show and Tell with a creature in hand.

I also imagine there are some interesting combos out there with Gifts Ungiven and Nostalgic Dreams, perhaps some form of U/g High Tide.

Is there any reason running Denizen of the Deep over polar kraken?

[BreathWeapon]

Is there any reason running Denizen of the Deep over polar kraken?

Reanimating Polar Kraken outside of the Buried Alive and Sutured Ghoul Pile will force the deck to sacrifice its lands, sometimes the deck does things like Burning Wish for Sickening Dreams, discard two cards (one card being a creature) to clear the board of Goblins and reanimate the creature. The power of Denizen of the Deep is enough to end the game in two turns, so there's no reason to risk sac a land, sac two lands and Swords to Plowshares in response.

Edit: It also CIP tapped, which is worthless with Anger, and if Trample is relevant, the deck can get Wonder.

[Cavius The Great]

Gifts also gives you two cards instead of one, which makes a pretty significant difference. That's why Gifts is played over Intuition in Vintage. A single mana for an entire new card is pretty damn good.

You've got a major point. That's what most people overlook when comparing the two.

-Slay

[sammiel]

I've been tinkering around with it and I can't come up with a non-combo decklist that doesn't have a bad matchup against goblins and combo. I rape non-goblins aggro, but goblins is pounding me.

I love this format, im betting I can come up with something playable.

My most successful incarnation of the deck was UBG using dark ritual to power out turn 1 crucibles and/or turn 2 gifts, but goblins was still steamrolling me without white for spot removal.

[hi-val]

With Black in your list, did you consider Damnation?

[Nihil Credo]

One of the problems with Gifts Ungiven is the status of mana acceleration in Legacy.

Gifts combos are expensive, requiring four mana just to start. Standard and Extended decks can use Signets, Urzatron, and green-based acceleration, but those are either too slow or too frail for Legacy. Vintage has Mana Drain and all sort of restricted stuff.

Legacy gets caught in the middle - it has very few viable options to accelerate its mana. Survival decks are the only ones that use Birds, Rangers, and 1 Rofellos, and that's because their mana critters can turn into fat later on for the cost of one green mana.

The other kinds of viable acceleration are the Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors stuff that Stax and ?-Stompy love, and the Ritual effects in black, red and blue (Reset). Since Gifts Ungiven only requires one blue mana, and since you can split the mana cost for your combo (EOT Gifts, untap, play stuff to win the game), it seems to me that it would be more reasonable to go with the former rather than the latter. This is also an encouragement to go for a Mizzium Vault finishing combo, since it has synergy with colorless lands.

[Nihil Credo]

Ok, since I put out the idea of Tomb/City/Vein, I thought I should offer at least a rough, minimally tested decklist. Here is my first attempt at an Accelerated Gifts deck. It's a monoblue combo deck featuring FoW and Remand as protection/stall, and easily capable of casting turn 3 Gifts Ungiven (which can mean a turn 4 win if you already have drawn one of the combo pieces or a Reconstruction).

The main flaws are its own inconsistency (you will often draw opening hands with very little action) and the difficulty to break through a counter wall: when the time comes to build a sideboard, it should probably feature Mana Short or something similar. Two maindeck bounce spells also feel like too little, especially when the combination of Meddling Mages and Pithing Needles are involved (then again, I'd be surprised if *any* version of such a deck could achieve a favourable Threshold or Fish matchup).

On the plus side, it can recover from discard quite well (topdeck Gifts or Scroll to quickly recover your combo) and it is resistent to a lot of the hate commonly played against combo, stuff like Chalice of the Void or Sphere of Resistance (against Chalice@1, Gifts for Vault, Mizzium, Drafna's Restoration, and E-Truth; against Chalice@2, use Repeal instead). The win condition is fairly ridiculous, but I wanted a noncreature artifact in order to use the Regrowth effects and to not care about blockers or creature removal.

A likely direction for the deck would be a white splash for Argivian Find (supplements Drafna's Restoration), Orim's Chant, Disenchant (for Needle) and possibly Hanna's Custody. I haven't worked on it yet, though. For now, enjoy the monoblue list.

// Colorless mana
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors

// Blue mana
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [UNH] Island
3 [CS] Snow-Covered Island
1 [MR] Seat of the Synod
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [TE] Lotus Petal

// Drawing and tutoring
4 [PR] Brainstorm
4 [MR] Thirst for Knowledge
3 [HL] Merchant Scroll
3 [CHK] Gifts Ungiven
2 [MI] Mystical Tutor

// Protection
4 [PR] Force of Will
4 [RAV] Remand
1 [GP] Repeal
1 [DS] Echoing Truth

// Combo
1 [b] Time Vault
1 [GP] Mizzium Transreliquat
1 [AQ] Drafna's Restoration
3 [R] Reconstruction
1 [MI] Telim'Tor's Darts

(PS: I'm not sure I will get any Internet access for the next week, so I may not be able to contribute further to this thread until Monday 16th)

[sammiel]

The problem is, I see no reason to play gifts as a combo piece when there are plenty of more resilient or faster combo decks in the format.

The real strength of Gifts in this format would be as a card advantage spell, but so far most of my lists just look like a crappy version of 4c landstill.

The eternal struggle of Legacy: making a deck competitive against goblins and combo at the same time.