[Deck] Survival

[Tacosnape]

I know this post is a little old but I felt I must say just how horrible this nickname is. I assume you get basket from the fact that some baskets can be made of wicker? Please don't ever call him this again.

As nobody seems to be running much in the way of Doran currently, you could just call him "Tree." As in, "I resolve a Tree and blow up his Counterbalance, then swing with Tree and Goyf ftw." Swinging with a Tree amuses me. Takes me back to my MajorMUD days of running Half-Ogre Clerics and smashing with tree trunks.

...And since none of you know wtf I'm talking about, back on topic. I really want to tweak lists to where I can fit multiple of Wickerbough in the deck. He's so ridiculously good against so much of the format. I just probably don't have the slots. And because he's slow, I'd have to lower my curve elsewhere. I'm not comfortable having more than two 4-drops in this deck (Wickerbough and Hierarch), so I'd have to lower my curve elsewhere or increase my mana production.

To the more experienced Survival players, has anyone ever tried a 1-Bird, 3-4 Rofellos configuration? I like the fact that Rofellos can just churn out Witnesses, Wickerboughs, Goyfs, postboard grips, Survivals/Activations, and just that he's generally insanely overpowered if he stays out.

[nitewolf9]

Is it really worth it to only run 1 Bird? As strong as Rofellos is I think he is exponentially better with Survival active, and you really don't want to have multiples clogging your hand early. Birds lets you land turn 2 Survivals with Daze backup/activation mana up and is also insane with Cabal Therapy.

PS I think "The Wickerman" would be a good nickname for that guy, as anyone who has heard my ringtone can attest to (it is Nicholas Cage screaming that he is covered in bees...anything referencing this is a good thing). Plus you could get altered-art WB Elders with a guy in a bear suit about to punch a woman.

[Tacosnape]

Is it really worth it to only run 1 Bird? As strong as Rofellos is I think he is exponentially better with Survival active, and you really don't want to have multiples clogging your hand early. Birds lets you land turn 2 Survivals with Daze backup/activation mana up and is also insane with Cabal Therapy.

I think it depends on your question. If you mean "Is it worth it to run 1 instead of 0," my answer is yes, because you want to be able to search one up to grab a missing color if you're being kept off Black or White. And you'll still randomly get it in your opening hand from time to time.

If your question is "Is it even remotely feasible to run only 1," my answer is that I don't know and I haven't gotten around to testing it, hence why I asked if it had been tried. I don't argue for a second that Bird is ridiculous for turn two Survivals, is ridiculous with Therapy, etc, so on. The question I'm proposing is if you could make a feasible build that benefits from having stronger but slower mana acceleration. The one bird isn't set in stone, either. It could be 2, or whatever the case may be.

BTW, if Tree doesn't stick, I like "The Wickerman" also. Because it would allow me to say "Here comes the Wickerman!" when I drop it. Or possibly sing "I'm Your Wickerman," in my best Rob Zombie voice. You know, like, "I'm your Wickerman, that's what I am, I'm here to blow up, whatever I can, yeeeah, Counterbalance, Umezawa's Jitte, Pithing Needle, whatever's in my way, yeeeeah."

[beastman]

I don't understand how you can run only 1 birds. It is one of the most essential cards in the deck.

[Tacosnape]

So's Rofellos. And a consistent turn two Rofellos is a scary, scary thing for the opponent to deal with. Untapping with him out on turn three can often result in asshattery like Cabal Therapy, tap Rofellos, Witness Therapy, play Therapy again, sac Witness to Therapy, you don't have a hand anymore. Alternately, it lets you do fun little setups like Turn 1 Therapy, turn 2 Rofellos, turn three Wickerbough, flash Rofellos to Therapy, second Rofellos. Not to mention being able to tap him for Survival and roll out your chain.

I guess in theory there's not a whole lot of reason you'd have to limit to one Bird doing this, but in a hypothetical version built around Rofellos's curve, there's only so many slots, and more land is better.

[beastman]

Birds fits into the curve of the deck much, I repeat, much more smoothly. Rofellos is yet another two drop that doesn't even fix color issues. Against decks that run moon effects or lock pieces, I would much rather have a turn 1 birds than a turn 2 Rofellos. Birds almost single handedly won me at least 3 games at the GP, where I was able to turn 1 birds, turn 2 thoughtsieze away shenanigans and resolve survival, turn 3, establish complete control of the game.

[Tacosnape]

Birds fits into the curve of the deck much, I repeat, much more smoothly. Rofellos is yet another two drop that doesn't even fix color issues. Against decks that run moon effects or lock pieces, I would much rather have a turn 1 birds than a turn 2 Rofellos. Birds almost single handedly won me at least 3 games at the GP, where I was able to turn 1 birds, turn 2 thoughtsieze away shenanigans and resolve survival, turn 3, establish complete control of the game.

It's absolutely fascinating when people argue a point that nobody's counter-arguing. Birds are fantastic. Agreed.

That said, BGW Survival decks appeared for awhile in a more controlling shell without Birds. And did well. So it's not unfeasible to think that in probably the most broad archetype of deck in the format, a build without 4 Birds of Paradise could exist and thrive. Therefore I don't think it's any less feasible to wonder if Rofellos-centric builds have potential.

If Birds were Rofellos in your scenario, you'd Thoughtseize turn 1 or 3, drop Rofellos turn two, and drop Survival and do shenanigans on turn three. This, I admit, is slightly inferior and more vulnerable, but undisrupted? It provides you with the identical scenario on the third turn. Survival resolved, one Thoughtseize cast, and control of the game.

Example:

Scenario 1: With Birds.
Turn one: 1 mana generated, spent on Bird.
Turn two: 3 mana generated, spent on Seize, Survival.
Turn three: 4 mana generated, spent on Survival shenanigans. With Rofellos/Anger coming out, can generate an additional 3 mana.

Scenario 2: With Rofellos.
Turn one: 1 mana generated, spent on Thoughtseize
Turn two: 2 mana generated, Rofellos
Turn three: 6 mana generated, Survival, Survival shenanigans. With Quirion Ranger coming out, can generate an additional 3 mana.

So while you take a different path, the end result is somewhat similar.

[b4r0n]

One of the most important things about Survival is the deck's ability to function when it doesn't get a Survival of the Fittest. If you're running more than 1 Rofellos and less than 4 Birds, you're going to end up with more hands that are unplayable. Birds fixes mana, lets you get away with missing land drops, and is much more disposable for flashing back Therapy. Rofellos just doesn't seem to fill the same role.

[Elf_Ascetic]

Scenario 1: With Birds.
Turn one: 1 mana generated, spent on Bird.
Turn two: 3 mana generated, spent on Seize, Survival.
Turn three: 4 mana generated, spent on Survival shenanigans. With Rofellos/Anger coming out, can generate an additional 3 mana.

Scenario 2: With Rofellos.
Turn one: 1 mana generated, spent on Thoughtseize
Turn two: 2 mana generated, Rofellos
Turn three: 6 mana generated, Survival, Survival shenanigans. With Quirion Ranger coming out, can generate an additional 3 mana.

So while you take a different path, the end result is somewhat similar.

Suppose you rip a FoW from their hand with Seize. In scenario 2 you're giving your opponents 2 turns to find a counterspell again, something that's easily done with BS, Top and Ponder. Thereby, a Swords on Rofellos in Scenario 2 is much more painfull than a swords on Rofellos in Scenario 1 (suppose you get Anger/Rofellos). The end result when goldfishing is very similar, but Scenario 2 is more vulnerable then Scenario 1.

[Tacosnape]

One of the most important things about Survival is the deck's ability to function when it doesn't get a Survival of the Fittest. If you're running more than 1 Rofellos and less than 4 Birds, you're going to end up with more hands that are unplayable. Birds fixes mana, lets you get away with missing land drops, and is much more disposable for flashing back Therapy. Rofellos just doesn't seem to fill the same role.

Okay, so your argument is that "Because Rofellos is a better card, it's less disposable for a Therapy flashback?" Because that's ridiculous.

Either one's equally disposable for a Therapy flashback. Flashing it back means you don't have a mana producing creature on the board anymore and they lose whatever you Therapy out of their hand. If you have two of each creature? You're still going to end up with one on the board.

Similarly, I'd challenge your assessment that you get more unplayable hands without Birds and with Rofellos. I run 8 fetches, 4 Savannah, and 4 Bayou, and I don't need Taiga at all unless I get Survival/Anger going. Additionally, in this hypothetical deck, I'd be running one Bird, and one Quirion Ranger to protect myself from Wasteland on my color sources.

I challenge you get more unplayable hands from mana quantity. Two land and a Bird provides you three mana. Two land and a Rofellos provides you four. Additionally, a deck with the quad Rofellos would be running slightly more land (22, likely), improving your opening draw percentages even further.


Suppose you rip a FoW from their hand with Seize. In scenario 2 you're giving your opponents 2 turns to find a counterspell again, something that's easily done with BS, Top and Ponder. Thereby, a Swords on Rofellos in Scenario 2 is much more painfull than a swords on Rofellos in Scenario 1 (suppose you get Anger/Rofellos). The end result when goldfishing is very similar, but Scenario 2 is more vulnerable then Scenario 1.

I'm aware, as I actually made the exact same point two posts earlier, though I probably should have elaborated on what I was talking about:


This, I admit, is slightly inferior and more vulnerable, but undisrupted? It provides you with the identical scenario on the third turn.

However, it's also quite feasible to throw the Thoughtseize on the third turn (After a turn one Ranger, Bird, STP, Therapy, second Seize, Top, whatever), similarly improving your chances to resolve Survival.

[nitewolf9]

If you are going to go with the multiple Rofellos plan I think you should have something else to do with the potentially absurd amounts of extra mana you would be able to reliably generate, in the situations that you cannot get survival to stay around. Would this deck run something like Natural Order?

I guess running multiple witnesses would probably have a similar effect, but it still requires you to draw survival in the first place. Maybe it's just one of those "danger of cool things" feelings, but I do like that Natural Order lets you sac extra Rofellos' and is also pretty good with a bunch of witnesses.

[quicksilver]

Birds also can fix your colors, and provide valuable chump blockers when racing a flier.

[Tacosnape]

If you are going to go with the multiple Rofellos plan I think you should have something else to do with the potentially absurd amounts of extra mana you would be able to reliably generate, in the situations that you cannot get survival to stay around. Would this deck run something like Natural Order?

I guess running multiple witnesses would probably have a similar effect, but it still requires you to draw survival in the first place. Maybe it's just one of those "danger of cool things" feelings, but I do like that Natural Order lets you sac extra Rofellos' and is also pretty good with a bunch of witnesses.

I agree with you as far as having the mana sink. I don't know if Natural Order is it. Nat/Progenitus is nice, but Rofellos doesn't really do this any quicker than Birds does. Rofellos will just do it and be able to power through Daze easier. I'll try this out when I get some time though.

Masticore becomes a nicer option than usual, I suppose. As does Silvos (Turn two Rofellos, Turn three Silvos, or getting him out hasted on turn 4 with a Survival.) But Silvos is trash if your opponent can keep you off both Survival and Rofellos. Sort of ditto for Staff of Domination, and it's not a Survival target, but Rofellos + Staff + 5 lands = win.

I think I'd want to find a way to abuse the green that isn't awful without the Rofellos. I'm open to suggestions here. Wickerbough Elder, Kitchen Finks, Eternal Witness, and Survival itself all play right off the Rofellos, and he makes Genesis activations a lot easier. But something to do in a mana flood would be neat.


Birds also can fix your colors, and provide valuable chump blockers when racing a flier.

The chump blocker element is highly underrated, I agree. I've won more than my fair share of games because Bird and only Bird was prepared to chump a Tombstalker/Enforcer/equipped Sea Drake/whatever.

[MSC]

If you need a sink for green Mana, just play Chameleon Colossus.

He isn't bad, when you draw him without Roffelos und his Pro-Black may come in handy sometimes...

[b4r0n]

Okay, so your argument is that "Because Rofellos is a better card, it's less disposable for a Therapy flashback?" Because that's ridiculous.

No, my argument is that Rofellos fills a different role than Birds. Birds smooth colors, fit the curve better, and accelerate you a turn faster.


Either one's equally disposable for a Therapy flashback. Flashing it back means you don't have a mana producing creature on the board anymore and they lose whatever you Therapy out of their hand. If you have two of each creature? You're still going to end up with one on the board.

Yes, but Birds is a smaller mana investment than Rofellos. That's what I meant by "more disposable." Therapy is good if you have multiple Rofelloses, I suppose.


Similarly, I'd challenge your assessment that you get more unplayable hands without Birds and with Rofellos. I run 8 fetches, 4 Savannah, and 4 Bayou, and I don't need Taiga at all unless I get Survival/Anger going. Additionally, in this hypothetical deck, I'd be running one Bird, and one Quirion Ranger to protect myself from Wasteland on my color sources.

You're welcome to challenge my assessment, and I'd be interested to hear your testing results. I'm thinking about hands like:

Fetch
Forest
Swords
Goyf
Thoughtseize
Harmonic Sliver
Birds/Rofellos

With Birds, this hand is amazing. Turn 1 Forest -> Birds, turn 2 fetch Bayou -> Thoughtseize, Goyf. Then turn 3, you have access to either Swords for their dude or Harmonic for their CB or whatever.

With Rofellos, this hand is just alright. Turn 1 fetch Bayou -> Thoughtseize, turn 2 Rofellos? If they have a Waste turn 1, you're screwed. Even if they don't, you're still unable to get white mana to play the other two spells in your hand. So maybe you go turn 1 Forest, turn 2 fetch Savannah -> Rofellos? You don't get to use your Thoughtseize to disrupt your opponent, so you're wide open to whatever they plan on doing. For this hand, it might just be better to just go turn 1 Thoughtseize turn 2 Goyf and ignore Rofellos altogether. He seems pretty meh in this situation.


I challenge you get more unplayable hands from mana quantity. Two land and a Bird provides you three mana. Two land and a Rofellos provides you four. Additionally, a deck with the quad Rofellos would be running slightly more land (22, likely), improving your opening draw percentages even further.

See above. I'm not trying to attack you or anything, but I just don't think that cutting multiple Birds for multiple Rofelloses is a great idea. But maybe I'm wrong. Let me know how your testing goes.

[zulander]

Other than hand disruption, how do you deal with NOThresh?

[beastman]

Some people have started running fleshbag marauder. But, later in the game, it's surprisingly easy to just get down a bunch of goyfs and race them.

[Hawdes]

This is the list I'm playing right now and it works pretty good...

// Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Kitchen Finks
2 Eternal Witness
1 Mystic Enforcer
1 Shriekmaw
1 Big Game Hunter
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Anger
1 Genesis
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
// Enchantments
4 Survival of the Fittest
// Instants
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Krosan Grip
// Sorceries
4 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
// Lands
4 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Bayou
3 Savannah
1 Taiga
5 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
// SIDEBOARD
SB: 4 Angel's Grace
SB: 3 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 1 Fleshbag Marauder
SB: 1 Magus of the Moon
SB: 1 Yixlid Jailer
SB: 1 Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 Ingot Chewer
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg

Comments are appriciated.
I'm running Angel's grace due to the fact that it's impossible to get my hands on Orim's chant. It works good against ANTS and similar combo decks.

[Zach Tartell]

Comments are appriciated.
I'm running Angel's grace due to the fact that it's impossible to get my hands on Orim's chant. It works good against ANTS and similar combo decks.

You realize that Tendrils of Agony doesn't do damage, right? So you'll live through the end of their turn, then die as a state based effect during your untap phase.

I'd run Gilded Light, or Gaddok Teeg, or Ethersworn Cannonist (if I were unable to get Orim's Chant). Or you could just not play any anti-combo cards, and run it glass-cannon like.

[beastman]

It doesn't seem like you run enough creatures. I would definetely cut the grips from the main in favr of a gaddock teeg, harmonic sliver, and 1 other creature. I also agree with senoir Two baskets about angels grace. Its basically useless against tendrils.

[Hawdes]

You realize that Tendrils of Agony doesn't do damage, right? So you'll live through the end of their turn, then die as a state based effect during your untap phase.

I'd run Gilded Light, or Gaddok Teeg, or Ethersworn Cannonist (if I were unable to get Orim's Chant). Or you could just not play any anti-combo cards, and run it glass-cannon like.


Ah, I see where you are going on Angel's Grace... My head got it all mixed up. Back to the drawingboard on that one.

Going to the 3 maindeck grips... They work great... I love seeing them since they always have targets in my meta.

To respond to the addition of Gaddock Teeg or Ethersworn Cannonist in the matchup against combo, it's pretty much whatever actually since ANTS only resolve Ad N. and bounce your Teeg/Cannonist either way and it does not solve the problem of losing to it.
In this matchup I've tried different setups for my deck, everything from boarding in Duress, Orim's Chant etc. and my experience with it hasn't been that good. Often when I rip their hand with 4 Thoughtseize, 3 Therapy and 4 Duress, I keep having trouble to put pressure on them. Orim's/angel's only saves me a turn or gets pulled by their own Duresses which leads me to have to resolve orim's before they go off.
I do agree on a "lockdown" creature on the board like teeg/cannonist, that's why they are present in the board. But they don't excell in other matchups like against countertop, where a well aimed Grip ruins their day with a little luck game one.

And around the discussion of the addition of more creatures, if more creatures should be added, which ones should they be? I'm not very up in arms over the silverbullet tutor chinanigans that many people playing survival goes with, hence I want consistency over "really cool stuff to resolve once in a while". With this configuration of cards I still have a pretty good beatdown plan backed up with creature removal and enchantment/artifact blasting going. Goyf, Finks and Enforcer are usually enough to go all the way.

[Tangle.Wire]

Hi, i had some ideas about the Tradewind survival, but i am screwed so i just can play U/G/W for this reasen i came up with this list:

Creatures:

1 Morphling
2 Tradewind Rider
4 Wall of Roots
2 Eternal Witness
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Quirion Ranger
3 Xantid Swarm
1 Gilded Drake
1 Man-O-War
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Genesis
1 Kitchen finks
1 Spike Weaver
1 Trinket Mage
1 Harmonic Sliver

Others:

4 Survival of the Fittest
3 Sensei's diving Top
3 Counterbalance
2 Back to Basics

Lands:

1 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
4 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept Heath
1 Plains
6 Forest
4 Island

Sideboard:

1 Xantid Swarm
3 Opposition
1 Back to Basics
3 Tormods Crypt
3 Krosan Grip
4 Meddling Mage

Cause of running not many blue spells i removed force of will for my current list and added the xantids which do pretty nice as they can cover up spells like survival, BtB or just the creatures and it acts with survival and tradewindrider.

Counterbalance+Top are a pretty nice CO. synergy to this deck, top is good on its own as counterbalance gets the perfekt setting with 1-3 Mana cost spells and enough shuffle effects.

I*d like to get some ideas from out there :wink:

[beastman]

The thing about this deck is that it seems like you are tyring to do way to much. And theres no point in playing Tradewind rider if you're not running anger. And you'd have to cut B2B, splashing a fourth color. You also needto run a certain number of creatures before Survival to be effective.

[Zach Tartell]

That list also has a notable lack of Tarmogoyf and an inexplicable amount of Xantid Swarm.

[gamegeek2]

// Lands
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
2 [U] Swamp (1)
2 [UL] Treetop Village
1 [TSP] Mountain (4)
2 [A] Bayou
1 [U] Taiga
1 [R] Badlands
3 [9E] Forest (3)

// Creatures
4 [CHK] Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 [4E] Birds of Paradise
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [ON] Ravenous Baloth
2 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
1 [JU] Genesis
1 [CFX] Progenitus
1 [JU] Anger

// Spells
4 [PT] Natural Order
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
2 [AP] Pernicious Deed
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top

Basically, play like a rock deck. Main win is Natural Order for Progenitalia, but can play like the Rock, except with the Survival/Squee/Genesis engine.

[Justin]

// Lands
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
2 [U] Swamp (1)
2 [UL] Treetop Village
1 [TSP] Mountain (4)
2 [A] Bayou
1 [U] Taiga
1 [R] Badlands
3 [9E] Forest (3)

// Creatures
4 [CHK] Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 [4E] Birds of Paradise
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [ON] Ravenous Baloth
2 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
1 [JU] Genesis
1 [CFX] Progenitus
1 [JU] Anger

// Spells
4 [PT] Natural Order
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
2 [AP] Pernicious Deed
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top

Basically, play like a rock deck. Main win is Natural Order for Progenitalia, but can play like the Rock, except with the Survival/Squee/Genesis engine.

Sorry, but I don't think this deck is going to be very good. You don't want to mix Survival and Rock together. You should go for one or the other. Survival is most effective when you are running a very high number of creatures. The only non-creature spells you should run are SotF, and possibly Natural Order or a hand disrutpion card (but not both). Perncicous Deed has negative synergy with mush of your deck, espeically Survival. Either cut the Survivals and Natural Orders and go with a straight Rock deck, or cut 10-14 non-creature spells and play Survival. Either choice would be better than what you have listed.

Also, in this format Kitchen Finks is almost always going to be a better choice than Ravenous Baloth because of the cheaper casting cost.

[juventus]

Pernicious deed is fine with survival, it works well with witness/genesis. It's obviously better for a more controlling version of survival.

[johanessen]

Sorry, but I don't think this deck is going to be very good. You don't want to mix Survival and Rock together. You should go for one or the other. Survival is most effective when you are running a very high number of creatures. The only non-creature spells you should run are SotF, and possibly Natural Order or a hand disrutpion card (but not both). Perncicous Deed has negative synergy with mush of your deck, espeically Survival. Either cut the Survivals and Natural Orders and go with a straight Rock deck, or cut 10-14 non-creature spells and play Survival. Either choice would be better than what you have listed.

Also, in this format Kitchen Finks is almost always going to be a better choice than Ravenous Baloth because of the cheaper casting cost.


http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?type=Survival%20Rock&format=Legacy

[gamegeek2]

I'm liking pernicious deed in my testing against CounterTop so far, it's great at getting you out of stick situations such as Counterbalance locks. If you've had SotF out for several turns, you've probably already got Genesis going, and aren't in need of a ton.

Cabal Therapy and Thoughtseize have proved excellent in testing. I may need to up the creature count, but it's working out well so far. Cabal Therapy has been especially good, murdering the opponent's hand and denying them cards. It gives me time to set up the Survival engine.

Natural Order tends to act as more of a finisher, though it's certainly just capable of coming out turn 3 and blowing the opponent out. I haven't been impressed by Baloth either, I'm probably going to cut him for Finks or maybe more Witnesses.

EDIT: Thank you, johanessen, that proves my point well.

[Justin]

I'm liking pernicious deed in my testing against CounterTop so far, it's great at getting you out of stick situations such as Counterbalance locks. If you've had SotF out for several turns, you've probably already got Genesis going, and aren't in need of a ton.

Cabal Therapy and Thoughtseize have proved excellent in testing. I may need to up the creature count, but it's working out well so far. Cabal Therapy has been especially good, murdering the opponent's hand and denying them cards. It gives me time to set up the Survival engine.

Natural Order tends to act as more of a finisher, though it's certainly just capable of coming out turn 3 and blowing the opponent out. I haven't been impressed by Baloth either, I'm probably going to cut him for Finks or maybe more Witnesses.

EDIT: Thank you, johanessen, that proves my point well.

I don't think one deck top 8ing in a tourney "proves" that a deck is good. I could show you some links of White Weenie decks top 8ing, but that doesn't meant those decks are good in Legacy. The vast majority of top eight decks from Rock and Survival did not combine the two types. I could be wrong, but I'd need to see a lot more results.

I think the jury may still be out on Natural Order. I think it's a worthy card, but you really need to keep your green creature count high. Survival Elves or a creature-intensive Survival Advantage deck seem to be the best way to go. Blue decks such as Threshold might be able to get away with it, because they have all those free counters to protect the combo. Natural Order just seems like it would be too inconsistant in a Survival/Rock build.

[gamegeek2]

Inconsistent? 16 eligible green creatures to sacrifice? Survival to fetch green creatures? 8 discard spells to protect Natural Order?

DOES NOT COMPUTE.

Btw, I dropped Baloths for Witnesses. We'll see how that works out.

[gamegeek2]

Newest List

// Lands
4 Forest
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Treetop Village
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Mountain
1 Swamp

// Creatures
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Eternal Witness
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Genesis
1 Progenitus
1 Anger
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emmisary
1 Shriekmaw

// Spells
4 Natural Order
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Survival of the Fittest
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Thoughtseize

Cabal Therapy is consistently proving itself as one of the best cards in the deck. Thoughtseize has been underperforming, so it was the card to cut - I put in Rofellos, Shriekmaw, and another Deed

[b4r0n]

Newest List

// Lands
4 Forest
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Treetop Village
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Mountain
1 Swamp

// Creatures
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Eternal Witness
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Genesis
1 Progenitus
1 Anger
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emmisary
1 Shriekmaw

// Spells
4 Natural Order
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Survival of the Fittest
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Thoughtseize

Cabal Therapy is consistently proving itself as one of the best cards in the deck. Thoughtseize has been underperforming, so it was the card to cut - I put in Rofellos, Shriekmaw, and another Deed

I'm not sure that you have enough Forests to effectively support Rofellos. Most Survival builds that use Rofellos run 7-8 fetches and 12-13 Forests. You're running 7 fetches and 7 Forests, which seems quite low. I realize that you want the Swamp and Mountain for Sakura-Tribe Elder, but you might want to reevaluate your manabase. For example, Badlands seems completely unnecessary, and Villages seem underwhelming. If I were you, I would consider going -3 Mire, -2 Village, -1 Badlands, +4 Heath, +1 Dryad Arbor, +1 Taiga. I'd also think about dropping the basic Mountain and Swamp for 2 Bayous, although that might detract from the effectiveness of the Sakura-Tribe Elders.

[Kesta]

There's another thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12537) about Natural Order Survival, which is for me not a DTB, it has to be tuned so much and you lose too much crucial cards when adding NO Pro tool.

Standard survival advantage deck rocks. BRGDS

K

[beastman]

Right now, I'm kind of on the fence about whether RGBSA or lol elf survival is the deck to play. I don't have enough testing time on the regular to figure it out. I know they are different decks, but it seems like they are appealing to the same kinds of people. Any insighttful tips?

[b4r0n]

Right now, I'm kind of on the fence about whether RGBSA or lol elf survival is the deck to play. I don't have enough testing time on the regular to figure it out. I know they are different decks, but it seems like they are appealing to the same kinds of people. Any insighttful tips?

I played Epic Elf Survival in the grinders at the GP and was a bit underwhelmed by it. It's not a bad deck, but it requires a very different mindset than RGBSA (I played 4c Survival in the main event). For example, since Elf Survival has no maindeck disruption or removal, you're forced into playing the beatdown in every match. You simply can't shift between beatdown and control, which is one of the cool things about RGBSA. Similarly, RGBSA is one of the few decks in the format that doesn't really have any unwinnable matchups; you can beat just about everything if you're a good enough player and build the deck right. That's not exactly the case for Elf Survival; the deck isn't nearly as customizable as RGBSA, and a lot of its matchups are pretty lopsided in one direction or the other. Still, with that said, the power level for Elf Survival is pretty high, and you'll win a lot of games from "oops, I guess I resolve Natural Order" or "oops, I guess I have 20+ power on the board".

Basically, you just have to test it out and see what feels right for your style of play and for your metagame. That's the best advice I can give you.

[gamegeek2]

Several things:

First of all, Badlands is indeed proving terrible. It's getting cut.
I like the single Swamp, but the Mountain can go because Magus gives me plenty of mountains to work with. In its place I'll put a second Taiga.
Bloodstained Mire, unable to get Forests, is also problematic - I'm cutting them for Heaths

@B4ron, thx

[beastman]

I like the new maelstrom pulse as a wish target for the versions not running white. It can get rid of a bunch of irritating things, and its much easier to hit counterbalance as it costs three.

[Black Mass]

I think it's great removal to wish for, but against Counterbalance I still rely on Wickergough Elder to do his thing. Especially since many CB lists are starting to run a greater number of 3-cc spells + the wish we play to get him costs 2...

[AngryTroll]

I've been tossing around a GBrw list with Pridemage in it, and it seems like an improvement over the older GBr lists. Pridemage does most of what Burning Wish does-your Goyfs kill their Goyfs, and Pridemage kills Counterbalance and stuff (with a higher chance of success than Burning Wish!).

As much as I hate to do it, I've dropped Magus of the Moon from the main. With more of a white splash, it's harder to make Magus one sided. When the total white splash was a few Swords, it wasn't such a big deal. With 6 or 7 white spells that you always want to be able to cast, it's not as good.

Here's the list.

4 Birds of Paradise
2 Quirion Ranger
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Pridemage
2 Eternal Witness
1 Shriekmaw
1 Big Game Hunter
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Masticore

1 Rofellos
1 Squee
1 Anger
1 Genesis
1 Faerie Macabre

4 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Survival of the Fittest

6 Forests
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
3 Savannah
2 Taiga

You could probably run Aether Vial, in place of land 21, the Quirion Rangers, and some other stuff. I like the Rangers in a list with no basic Plains, Mountains, or Swamps. A fourth Pridemage may be better than one of the infinite removal spells; probably the Masticore. With Rangers and a Rofellos in the deck, though, Masticore fits right in.

The sideboard could include some number of (Depending on Ichorid/Storm combo and the local Goblin/Merfolk populations):
4 Orim's Chant
3 Gaddock Teag
2 Yixlid Jailer
3 Tormod's Crypt
4 Engineered Plague
3 Pyroclasm
3 Krosan Grip

I'm actually rather excited about this list. Pridemage streamlines the deck, letting you cut Burning Wish without losing the versatility of the slot. Most of the time, Wish fetches (or attempts to fetch) removal for some sort of permanent. Pridemage doesn't let you just win the game like Primal Command or Haunting Echoes does, but winning Goyf wars and stopping Counterbalance and Moat and stuff all at once is probably close enough.

[beastman]

I personally have never seen the point of running more than one quirion ranger in any list. I know he is great with mana development, but I've never wanted a second one.

[troopatroop]

I personally have never seen the point of running more than one quirion ranger in any list. I know he is great with mana development, but I've never wanted a second one.

That's not true, in something like ATS or Elf Survival, Quirion Ranger is a welcomed early game manasource. It plays nicely with Llanowar Elves, Birds of Paradise, Rofellos, and Priest of Titania for some really ridiculous plays. Opening one in your hand is still good, because chances are that it'll have something to interact with. I've seen alot of people make mistakes into Quirion Ranger tricks too. While playing ATS, I would often fetch for a Quirion Ranger to fuel my Rofellos, and if I had lost my only Ranger to a Mogg Fanatic or something, it would be annoying not having another to Survival for. I don't think I've played Survival without 2x maindecked, and I've always liked it.

[beastman]

The thing is, ATS isn't even a viable deck anymore, and elf survival is a different archetype. In the more controlling RGBSA builds, I have never seen a reason to run more than one.

[bigbear102]

I began playing a 2nd Quirion Ranger in the SB of GRBW Survival a while ago and have always loved it. He is almost never dead, allowing you to untap mana sources or be able to keep up a defense while swinging.

The main reason for the 2nd in the board is to combat all of the mana denial being played these days. If you can get around Stifle, he saves your lands from Wasteland and Sinkhole. I bring him in against anything with Wasteland, and he shines against Team America. Depending on how many land your list plays, Ranger can also be an important factor in mana development, allowing you to bounce a tapped land and replay it.

Ranger is just too versatile and had helped me out of many tight spots.

[Tacosnape]

Depending on how many land your list plays, Ranger can also be an important factor in mana development, allowing you to bounce a tapped land and replay it.

Ranger is just too versatile and had helped me out of many tight spots.

While I'll be the last person to ever argue against running one Ranger, if you need Rangers to rely on getting your mana, shouldn't your second Ranger probably just be land. My win% has skyrocketed with Survival ever since I started upping my land count (I run 22, 4 Birds, 1 Rofellos, and 1 Ranger).

The best thing I ever did for my Survival was lower my curve and up my land count. Having the actual mana to perform Genesis locks, maximize Witness, maximize Survival by curving out at 3-4 lands consistently, and hardcast my Evoke threats in a pinch has turned Survival into one of my most consistent decks.

My list of Evoke Survival, for reference:

4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Savannah
4 Bayou
3 Taiga
3 Forest

4 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Survival of the Fittest

4 Birds of Paradise
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Eternal Witness
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Genesis
1 Anger
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Shriekmaw
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Ingot Chewer
1 Wispmare
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Kitchen Finks

SB:
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Shriekmaw
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Ingot Chewer
2 Wispmare
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Loaming Shaman

[Skub]

@ Tacosnape: What do you think about including or not: 3 Dark Confidant + 2 Sensei's Divnining Top?

Thanks for the reply.

[Kesta]

Why not including a Spore Frog? with genesis it's a good lock, really cheap.

Nevertheless i agree with you Tacosnape, survival needs a strong mana base, with mana you can almost do what you want when you want. If you have lack of mana it's usually the death.

Instead of Loaming shaman i prefer Faerie Macabre (easily recurable) and i never tested the 2 evoke "desenchant" creatures i prefer run 1 qasali and 1 wickerbough.

Have you ever tried Reveillark? He can be damn good, with recurring your tarmo or anything you need.

[Tacosnape]

@ Tacosnape: What do you think about including or not: 3 Dark Confidant + 2 Sensei's Divnining Top?

Thanks for the reply.

No. There isn't enough room for Confidant/Top without compromising my deck and cutting either the manabase, which I love, or silver bullet answers, which is why I run Survival.

Suggestions of cutting Witness are an atrocity. Witness handles my card advantage way better than Confidant. And the synergy with the 1 and 2-cost evoke guys just makes it all the sweeter.


Why not including a Spore Frog? with genesis it's a good lock, really cheap.

Nevertheless i agree with you Tacosnape, survival needs a strong mana base, with mana you can almost do what you want when you want. If you have lack of mana it's usually the death.

Instead of Loaming shaman i prefer Faerie Macabre (easily recurable) and i never tested the 2 evoke "desenchant" creatures i prefer run 1 qasali and 1 wickerbough.

Have you ever tried Reveillark? He can be damn good, with recurring your tarmo or anything you need.

@Spore Frog: It's an ehh lock. Any instant speed removal breaks your lock. Most every deck ever runs some sort of instant speed removal. Force, STP, Fanatic, Bolt, etc. Funniest thing I could imagine doing with it is fogging Progenitus or something, but I'd much rather just kill the bitch with Fleshbag Marauder.

Ingot Chewer and Wispmare have huge strengths. They cost 1, which is hugely important in seizing tempo. And furthermore, they get in the yard for Witness recursion with 1. An early Wispmare or Chewer and I can sometimes go toe to toe with Enchantress, Affinity, or what have you, and after boardiing in two more, the effect is pretty nice. Wispmare's also pretty neat against a fast Counterbalance, in case I can't get a Pridemage down pre-emptively. Chewer's also a decent body if I'm mana-heavy, and Wispmare can be useful for doing random things like blocking Hypnotic Specter or chumping Tombstalker.

It's worth noting that out of my Qasali/Ingot/Wispmare setup, however, that Wispmare would be the first cut from the maindeck, as it's awful against Pernicious Deed and has that whole "Ha ha you blow up your own Survival" thing going.

Also, Reveillark's both too expensive and doesn't recur Tarmogoyf, as Goyf's *'s in his power are checked in the graveyard as well as in play.

[Illissius]

The first thing I thought when I saw these modern Survival decks, quite a while ago now, was "can 20 lands possibly be enough?" and people assured me that it can. Sigh. This is why I need to test things. (Though I guess I should put that in past tense somehow, also.)

What about Shard Phoenix as a kind of recurrable Pyroclasm? Sure, you'll never pay the :r::r::r:, but :2::g: works.

[AngryTroll]

I've run 21 land in RGSA forever. With the lower curve and the addition of Quirion Rangers, I've dropped the number to 20, although I am still on the fence about it. Topdecking a Quirion Ranger is often slightly better than a land in the lategame, as it pitches to Survival if you need it to, and at worst works likes a comes-into-play-tapped land. If you have a Bird of Paradise or Rofellos in play, it's much better than a land.

I really like running two Quirion Rangers main instead of just one. They aren't as good as Birds, but they're better than Fyndhorn Elves for the spot. With zero basics of the splash colors, Quirion Ranger protects the manabase. Finally, in the early setup turns, Quirion Ranger is a better use of a leftover two mana than finding and dropping a Birds.

[Tacosnape]

The first thing I thought when I saw these modern Survival decks, quite a while ago now, was "can 20 lands possibly be enough?" and people assured me that it can. Sigh. This is why I need to test things. (Though I guess I should put that in past tense somehow, also.)

What about Shard Phoenix as a kind of recurrable Pyroclasm? Sure, you'll never pay the :r::r::r:, but :2::g: works.

I've played Survival since Legacy started. Granted, in about 400 different incarnations, but I did learn one constant. I died more to not having enough mana to gain control of the board than to anything else ever. It took me years to somehow get to the point of realizing more mana is better than more answers I can't play fast enough, but I finally did.

What's more, Survival has a difficult time getting to the point of having too much mana. I mean, I can spend :2::g: a turn on a Genesis recursion, another :g: Survivalling out Squee, another :1::g::g: playing a Witness or whatever I recurred, etc. I have 5 mana Shriekmaw locks, 6 mana Fleshbag Marauder locks, 4 mana Ingot Chewer/Wispmare locks, etc, etc. Yet my curve is low enough to where I can function on less land.

[Muela]

@Tacosnape How would you deal against swarms (goblins and melfork most of them)?

Thanks for sharing your decklist :)

[Tacosnape]

@Tacosnape How would you deal against swarms (goblins and melfork most of them)?

Thanks for sharing your decklist :)

4 Swords, 4 Shriekmaws after board, 4 Witness, 4 Thoughtseize, 4 Therapy after board, 4 Tarmogoyf. This goes a long way. I actually do pretty well against Merfolk, as there aren't quite enough of them to overwhelm my removal capacity, and Goblins isn't too bad either, as the above listed cards can hit them pretty hard, and Thoughtseize/Therapy have to keep them off Matron/Ringleader for just a few turns. Of all the tribal matches I have to deal with, Elves is probably one of the more annoying.

If I expected to see a lot of them, however, I'd run something along the lines of Plague or Firespout/Pyroclasm in sideboard. Or possibly a Goblin Sharpshooter. But probably just Plague.

[Nah]

SB:
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Shriekmaw
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Ingot Chewer
2 Wispmare
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Loaming Shaman

Where is Krosan Grip?
3 copies would improve Landstill, Counterbalance, Dreadnought matchups I think. Humility turns it into a 24EagerCadet.dec.
I see Gaddock Teeg and 8x Discard as a proactive prevention measures, but having also sth reactive wouldn't be a bad idea.

[Tacosnape]

Teeg does enough for me here for the most part. Shutting off Humility and Elspeth is a huge step in the right direction, and I just don't feel Grip is worth the mana it soaks up here. I'll probably test it again at some point, but for now I'm working pretty well with the configuration I have.

Dreadnought I'm not scared of unless he's backed up by Counterbalance. I've got STP, Ingot Chewer, and Fleshbag Marauder all maindecked, plus the additional Chewers in board, plus additional discard in board.

Counterbalance will sometimes wreck you, but it is what it is. On top at 3 is what they need to shut me off removing it, and sometimes they just don't have it. That said, Grip's much nicer at keeping them from being able to leave the 3 on top at all times.

I've removed Qasali Pridemage from my maindeck, so it's a little worse dealing with CB now, so I might try a board that looks like:

3 Shriekmaw
3 Kitchen Finks
2 Gaddock Teeg (One's main now)
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Krosan Grip
1 Ingot Chewer
1 Wispmare
1 Loaming Shaman

[sauce]

pyroclasm/spout > plague vs elves. most run seal of primordium in the board and since you already run survival of the fittest, they would board that in just for that. when plague hits, they are going to jump all over it.

[beastman]

pyroclasm/spout > plague vs elves. most run seal of primordium in the board and since you already run survival of the fittest, they would board that in just for that. when plague hits, they are going to jump all over it.

Except that with the amount of lords they get, pyroclasm is usually not enough. And plague is much better vs. merpersons as it doesnt wipe out your birds and other smaller creatures.

[sauce]

Except that with the amount of lords they get, pyroclasm is usually not enough. And plague is much better vs. merpersons as it doesnt wipe out your birds and other smaller creatures.

i would be willing to lose birds and more to wipe away 5+ forestwalkers.

[beastman]

Against elves though, they do nothing to battle your mana development or strip your hand, so using the shriekmaw-genesis engine on them is ridiculously easy to pull off. With this deck, mana is the single most important thing to have. I've played games against elves where they had double champion with enough thugs to kill me next turn, and with all the mana I had amassed, it was simple to just recur 'maw, and burning wish for rough tumble, drop a goyf and tell them to top that. They couldnt, and the next turn I killed him with 3 6/7 goyfs.

[paK0]

ned Survival into one of my most consistent decks.

My list of Evoke Survival, for reference:

4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Savannah
4 Bayou
3 Taiga
3 Forest

4 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Survival of the Fittest

4 Birds of Paradise
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Eternal Witness
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Genesis
1 Anger
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Shriekmaw
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Ingot Chewer
1 Wispmare
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Kitchen Finks

SB:
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Shriekmaw
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Ingot Chewer
2 Wispmare
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Loaming Shaman

I really like that list, but i wasnt able to try it out to the extend I wanted q_q.

Just wondering, how good is this list without SotF and how does it deal with heavie Landdestruction or Moon effects and the like?

[true story]

Do all survival decks bend over to combo/ichorid or is it just mine?

[Black Mass]

just your's I guess, I mostly get good results with GRB survival and Bant Survival

[true story]

what do you do against ichorid? I'm seriosly thinking about Planar Void, I know I rely on my yard but I can't think of how many times somebody played that or Leyline and I played around it with ease until I blew it up with Harmonic... I'm just frustrated... Last time I went against Ichorid, he went nuts game 1, game 2 starts with me dropping Tormods Crypt and him dropping Pithing Needle naming Crypt... WTF?

[AngryTroll]

Do all survival decks bend over to combo/ichorid or is it just mine?

Tendrils and Ichorid are tough matchups. Against Tendrils, Thoughtseize and Therapy usually need help from the board; Orim's Chant is probably your best bet (or the new Silence). Still, though, that doesn't make it an easy matchup, and even if you win game two, they get to go first game three. It can be hard to seal the game even if you get ahead with a Thoughtseize or Therapy, as the deck's clock isn't blazing fast.

Ichorid is an entirely different animal. Thoughtseize and Therapy can help on turn 1, if you hit a Breakthrough or something, but you can't even rely on that if you are on the play and do have one of them. Game two, you can bring it a Tormod's Crypts and/or Leylines. Remember that you can Evoke Shriekmaw with no targets (or at a Narcomoeba) to nail Bridges; running Darkheart Sliver or Mogg Fanatic to sacrifice on command help too, but it's a rough matchup.

So, no, it's not just you.

[coraz86]

Has anyone considered shoehorning Thorn of Amethyst somewhere into this deck? This seems like the deck the card was designed for; it barely hurts you, but it gives decks like storm (0 actual creatures), Landstill (almost certainly 0 creatures), Ichorid (absurdly tight mana base), and other decks fits. I don't know if I'd maindeck it, but it seems like a really strong sideboard card.

[Black Mass]

Ichorid is an entirely different animal. Thoughtseize and Therapy can help on turn 1, if you hit a Breakthrough or something, but you can't even rely on that if you are on the play and do have one of them. Game two, you can bring it a Tormod's Crypts and/or Leylines. Remember that you can Evoke Shriekmaw with no targets (or at a Narcomoeba) to nail Bridges; running Darkheart Sliver or Mogg Fanatic to sacrifice on command help too, but it's a rough matchup.

So, no, it's not just you.

Sorry, should have explained myself more. Preboard I have to get survival or Faerie macabre to get a chance. Recurring him with genesis is grand, but sut using him once can buy you engou time to set up and win.
Post board I get in Yixlid jailer and extra Faeries. Most of the times they'll seal the deal for you.
That allways helped for me together with some agressive mulliganing.

[gamegeek2]

My list of Aluren Survival

// Lands
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
7 Forest
3 Taiga
3 Bayou
1 Volrath's Stronghold

// Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Imperial Recruiter
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Genesis
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Big Game Hunter
1 Eternal Witness
1 Parasitic Strix
1 Cavern Harpy
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Anger
1 Shriekmaw
1 Loaming Shaman

// Spells
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Aluren
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Sensei's Divining Top

// Sideboard
3 Krosan Grip
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Magus of the Moon
3 Other Cards

Aluren in a Survival Shell.

Updated: Removed Living Wish for Top, removed the combo from the board as well. Considering adding Wall of Roots. Need 3 more sideboard cards.

[Muela]

Do all survival decks bend over to combo/ichorid or is it just mine?

I agree with Black Mass about how to play against Ichorid / Dregde. I could only add that after sideboarding, sometimes I had to give the spike feeder's counter to the jailer to prevent a double dark blast.

Also, as it has been said, the ANT match up is really tough with a GRB... I guess the lack of white (gaddock, canonist and orim's) can only be replaced with luck in those match up.

Changing the subject... I have recently played against some Zur decks and I don't see a proper way to beat them. The best strategy I have found is trying to sneak a fast magus of the moon...

Any suggestions about how to face that Zur match up? (with GRB survivals decks)

[Tacosnape]

Do you want to elaborate on what a Zur matchup is?

[beastman]

I would kill to play in a metagame where Zur is one of the scariest match ups!

[chokin]

Against Ichorid, use Snuffleupagus (Offalsnout). For B, you can remove all the BfB and their DR target/Ichorid. I dont have Ichorid in my meta so I'm still using my Faerie Macabre.

If you add white, Teeg and Ethersworn Canonist rule vs Tendrils.

Otherwise, go heavy discard.

WTF is Zur? Weirdings or Enchanter? Post some of the maindeck cards please?

[beastman]

How is snuffles better than faerie macabre?

[Valtrix]

Well, offalsnout can get rid of bridges with evoke + another problem card, but it costs you an extra B to do so. However, since you probably won't have the extra G to search out macabre right away unless you got mana accel, then it's perhaps a non-issue.

I guess you could try a loaming shaman on top of quicker guys if it's really a problem. Remove a specifc card, then hit them with shaman to send them back to the beginning.

For Zur you need to be more specific. Are you having trouble with the creature Zur or with the types of control enchantments that are being played in the deck?

[Tacosnape]

Loaming Shaman is a monster, just so you guys know. He's one of my most frequently fetched utility guys.

I see the lure of Macabre (costing 0), but Awfulsnout seems like a waste.

[tomjulioo]

zur lists on deckcheck:

http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?type=Zur&format=Legacy

[beastman]

Those look slightly cute, but how are you having trouble with them with survival? I would think grip post board would just bend them over, and even pre board, they just look too slow.

[Zach Tartell]

zur lists on deckcheck:

http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?type=Zur&format=Legacy

Zur seems like a fairly terrible wincondition in non-EDH formats.


Against Ichorid, use Snuffleupagus (Offalsnout). For B, you can remove all the BfB and their DR target/Ichorid. I dont have Ichorid in my meta so I'm still using my Faerie Macabre.

I kinda feel like echoing the sentiment that Faerie Macabre is prolly the best graveyard hate available for Survival decks not running Natural Order (where I'd advocate Loaming Shaman).

I mostly just wanted to say that Top Chef taught me what offal was the other week and I just remembered it while reading about Survival of the Fittest decks.

[chokin]

I wasn't saying Offalsnout was the best option. It was just another option. I personally run Macabre because it's free. The only real benefit to Snout is that it removes all BfB on top of the next best card.

On a separate note, I've been testing a GRW Survival deck with Painter. A buddy of mine had a similar idea and ran it tonight. Our lists are pretty similar and looks something like:

3 Taiga
3 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Forest
1 Plains
1 Mountain

4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Grindstone
3 Enlightened Tutor
4 REB

4 Painter's Servant
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Jaya Balard
1 Rofellos
1 Genesis
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Squee
1 Anger
2 Eternal Witness
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Tarmogoyf
4 Open Slot

SB
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Harmonic Sliver
3 Krosan Grip
1 Worship
1 Gaea's Blessing
1 Choke
5 Open Slots

The open slots in his list were 2 Wall of Roots, an FtK(which he didn't like), and Spike Weaver(also didn't like). My list is -1 Savannah +1 Plateau and then my open slots have been changing between Welder, Sundering Titan, Duplicant/Titan #2, and Platinum Angel or 2 Goyfs/Wall of Roots, Masticore, and a Magus of the Moon. It looks strange, but it's a fun build that randomly busts out like Imperial Painter and also can win by beatdown.

The Enlightened Tutors help find Survival or combo pieces or some SB tech. My friend was considering trading out Tombs for Crystal Veins (bleh) since he felt that he only used them for winning with the combo. And I agree that they sometimes feel out of place. Alternatively, they could be subbed out for extra fetch/duals/basics.

[TOGITwill]

I have a question after looking at some of these lists. Why even bother playing Harmonic Sliver anymore? I see that some are playing both Sliver and Pridemage in conjunction with each other, but I just don't understand why. Shouldn't it just be a second Pridemage? Pridemage is bigger than sliver, costs less, and helps your 'Goyfs win 'Goyf-battles. Also, with Pridemage on the board, it serves as instant speed artifact/enchantment removal rather than sorcery speed.

Am I just missing something?

[beastman]

It gets around counterbalance much better.

[TOGITwill]

Fair enough!

[beastman]

I believe Wickerbough is the best artifact/enchantment removal for the deck though. With sliver being second. I dont really see you needing a third guy, so I don't know why pride is in there at all anyway.

[chokin]

For me, it's been Qasali > Harmonic > Wickerbough. Qasali helps beat Goyf vs Goyf, it's cheap, plays nice with Genesis and can be saved for later. Harmonic's biggest lure is that it's cheapish and dodges CB pretty well. It can't be Needle'd but that's hardly a factor. Wickerbough is like an expensive monogreen Qasali that doesn't help you beat other Goyf and isn't easy to recur like Qasali is.

I've used Wispmare (stolen idea from an Evoke Survival list) here and there, but it's been really mediocre. It's a cute trick that I can pull out against other Survival decks early on, or super cheap and recyclable enchantment removal. It usually makes the filler slot for my boards, however. Ingot Chewer is usually better than he is due to the higher number of artifacts played where I'm at. But they both suffer from the same problem: being too narrow.

[Muela]

Hi everyone, sorry about the delayed post but I've been in some holidays...

I'm sorry for giving for granted that Zur decks were not that rare, it seems that it is only in Spain (5-10%).

A Zur match up usually starts with brainstorms, spell snare, dark confidants, StP, SdT... after getting to turn 4 a Zur creature hits the table and since that moment usually it's really hard to win the game due to the fact that the keep using Zur to play the proper enchantment and let their mana free to play countermagic on your turn and StP your creatures.

Besides a Zur with a steel of the Godhead, or a "morphling Zur" are really scary. Not taking into account that they can play pernicious without paying its CC...

Once Zur is in play, usually, you can only take it down with a diabolic edict effect (fleshbag or chainer's edict) but you have to skip the counter-top and their countermagic and even if you can manage to it, chances are high about them getting again another Zur (with all that library manipulation).

However, you can get easily humilliated by free (thanks to Zur) pernicious...

I think that the best lists to deal with it should include white for StP and/or PtE

Any thoughts?

[beastman]

SB a reverent silence and play burning wish?

[Muela]

SB a reverent silence and play burning wish?

I guess I can give it a try :) I will replace the hull breach in my SB since I already have the seeds of innocence, besides wicker edel. in the main.

Now the hard part will be sneaking in the burning wish, but revernt silence seems to give a good turn around

[beastman]

I don't believe that you should be using pridemage in this deck at all. Counterbalance is the main issue to deal with. If your in a goyf war, tutor up removal and kill theirs.

[Jak]

I don't believe that you should be using pridemage in this deck at all. Counterbalance is the main issue to deal with. If your in a goyf war, tutor up removal and kill theirs.

The thing is that when you don't have Survival, Pridemage is just better than Harmonic Sliver or even Elder since it is cheaper than them, provides an okay body if it is alone, and then can help Goyfs punch through.

[beastman]

If you dont have a survival, Wickerbough is unarguably the best of the three. If your missing survival and mana, then your doing something very, very wrong.

[Tacosnape]

The thing about Ingot Chewer and Wispmare is that while they're narrow, they're strong, cost less than other solutions of their type which is huge given how mana hungry Survival is, are incredibly easy to recur due to the fact that they put themselves in the graveyard for you, and are difficult to counter by conventional Legacy means.

Ingot Chewer's a complete monster. He creates an artifact removal loop with Genesis for :2::r::g: a turn, which is a steal. He's a master at taking out Phyrexian Dreadnought against Dreadstill. He picks off Vials against both Goblins and Merfolk. Eats Needles on Survival. Eats Jitte. Eats Chalice of the Void alive. Forces your opponent to blow Relic/Crypt on your terms. And if you've got mana to spare, he's a decent 3/3 body to put on the board while taking something out. He can't touch top, but nothing you're comparing him to can either.

Wispmare's less incredible than Ingot Chewer for one reason and one reason only, which is like Harmonic Sliver (But unlike Wickerbough Elder or Qasali Pridemage), if your opponent's enchantment jumps off the board before your creature resolves, it's going to blow up your own Survival. It also can't get you around a Standstill. However, it provides a reasonable attack against Counterbalance (They don't run -that- many 3-drops), a beautiful piece of recursion against opposing Survivals (It costs you less to recur/remove their Survival then it does for them to Witness/Play it), and a machine gun against any enchantment-heavy decks you might run across. It has no recourse against Humility, but again, no creature you can run in this slot does.

The 1-mana evoke costs are the real reason to run these guys, though. When you've got the Survival to hunt what you need, there's nothing better, as the fact that they cost one can save your ass when time is of the essence and you need to both be getting Anger/Squee/Genesis online -and- solving a problem.

Another guy you should look into running if you're running 4 colors is Burrenton Forge-Tender. I keep one in my sideboard at the moment to supplement Hierarch/Finks because at current, he's Survival's best answer to Zoo's Price of Progress.

Here's my current list.

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
4 Bayou
4 Savannah
4 Taiga
2 Forest

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Survival of the Fittest

4 Birds of Paradise
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Eternal Witness
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Genesis
1 Anger
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Ingot Chewer
1 Wispmare
1 Shriekmaw
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Loxodon Hierarch

SB:
2 Aether Vial
1 Ingot Chewer
2 Krosan Grip
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
3 Shriekmaw
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Blitz Hellion
1 Faerie Macabre
2 Gaddock Teeg

[chokin]

I do like the 2(R/W)G looping with Genesis. And I am aware of blasting my Survival, but I haven't had that happen yet...keyword: yet. Unless they play bounce instead of Grip (I know 1 of the 2 MUC decks splashes G for Coatl and Grip, no one else really bounces) on their stuff, I just can't see it backfiring.

I have seen the BFT in Extended and Standard. It's a nice W: Counter target burn spell. It's probably a must have in Burn or Zoo heavy metas.

Wickerbough is too slow. 4+1 to do something that 3 mana can do? That single white mana on Harmonic isn't hard to achieve between BoP, fetch lands and duals.

I think that (at least in my Natural Order build) that my curve varies enough to work around CB. Qasali may fail, but Natural Order shouldn't. Nor should Witness to retry with Order. And if Witness can get through, I'm sure I can Fleshbag Marauder their threat away. I guess in my Painter build I'm way more vulnerable, but being quick and packing 4 REB main decked plus Jaya, I think I'll do ok.

[Tacosnape]

I do like the 2(R/W)G looping with Genesis. And I am aware of blasting my Survival, but I haven't had that happen yet...keyword: yet. Unless they play bounce instead of Grip (I know 1 of the 2 MUC decks splashes G for Coatl and Grip, no one else really bounces) on their stuff, I just can't see it backfiring.

It also tends to backfire against enchantments that can get rid of themselves, like Pernicious Deed. Wispmare is -terrible- against Pernicious Deed if you have a Survival out. In this instance, I'd rather have a Pridemage, but Grips from the sideboard generally do the trick.

[AngryTroll]

Wickerbough is too slow. 4+1 to do something that 3 mana can do?

Elder is a ton better than Harmonic. No doubt about it. 4 mana for a 3/3 is a ton better than 3 mana for a 1/1, especially when the 3/3 turns into a 4/4. Not even close.

Pridemage versus Wickerbough is a much more difficult decision. But both are better than Harmonic (unless, of course, you are running Darkheart. That's a whole different story. If you run both....who knows.) Pridemage is more vulnerable to Counerbalance, but it wins Goyf Wars.

[hungryboi]

Having done a lot of testing recently, I've come to realize that aggro has become a lot stronger recently. I feel that Goblins is definitely a threat to survival. I also don't have the most easiest time with Merfolk. I run GBWr version of survival. Any ideas? Wish>Swords? Problem with wish is that it takes up such a large chunk of my side.

[beastman]

Goblins has always been a tough match. I personally have never had a hard time with merfolk, the best hope is to get a quick survival and get shriekmaw going. Burningwish into pyroclasm helps this plan alot.

[Tacosnape]

Goblins isn't as big of a problem now that lists with any sense aren't running Mogg Fanatic. Makes it harder for them to slaughter your manabase. Merfolk can be tough, but not unwinnable. Here are my recommendations for beating Goblins and Merfolk.

1. Run a solid manabase. Wasteland is the card that hurts you the most. I run 22 land, 4 Birds, a Quirion Ranger, and a Rofellos, and my curve is low.

2. Run Plagues in your sideboard if you have a ton of tribal trouble (Say that three times fast.) If you aren't running them, a wave of Shriekmaws helps.

3. Study their decklist and practice your blind Cabal Therapies. Based on how each of these decks plays their first three or four turns, you should be able to discern with reasonable accuracy what to name with Cabal Therapy. Hitting on a blind Therapy you topdecked midgame can win you matches.

4. Don't let them draw. Try to use your discard to keep Merfolk off Standstill/Silvergill, and Goblins off Matron/Ringleader. Your card advantage engine may be more consistent than theirs, but it's also less explosive.

5. Have an answer to Relic of Progenitus. Ingot Chewer's solid here, as it gets rid of Relic or Vial for just one red and recurs. Pithing Needle also shines in these matches for its ability to stop Wasteland, Relic, or Vial dead in their tracks. Null Rod is similarly awesome, just without the Wasteland part, but it also helps against combo.

[hungryboi]

Goblins isn't as big of a problem now that lists with any sense aren't running Mogg Fanatic. Makes it harder for them to slaughter your manabase. Merfolk can be tough, but not unwinnable. Here are my recommendations for beating Goblins and Merfolk.

1. Run a solid manabase. Wasteland is the card that hurts you the most. I run 22 land, 4 Birds, a Quirion Ranger, and a Rofellos, and my curve is low.

2. Run Plagues in your sideboard if you have a ton of tribal trouble (Say that three times fast.) If you aren't running them, a wave of Shriekmaws helps.

3. Study their decklist and practice your blind Cabal Therapies. Based on how each of these decks plays their first three or four turns, you should be able to discern with reasonable accuracy what to name with Cabal Therapy. Hitting on a blind Therapy you topdecked midgame can win you matches.

4. Don't let them draw. Try to use your discard to keep Merfolk off Standstill/Silvergill, and Goblins off Matron/Ringleader. Your card advantage engine may be more consistent than theirs, but it's also less explosive.

5. Have an answer to Relic of Progenitus. Ingot Chewer's solid here, as it gets rid of Relic or Vial for just one red and recurs. Pithing Needle also shines in these matches for its ability to stop Wasteland, Relic, or Vial dead in their tracks. Null Rod is similarly awesome, just without the Wasteland part, but it also helps against combo.

Thanks for the mucho help. Currently, I have 4 plagues and 2 rough/tumbles in my SB to battle Tribal decks. I don't run Burning wish in deck BTw. I was wondering if it's a good idea to swap any of these 6 sides for other ones such as pithing needle and ingot chewers as mentioned?

Also, are Deeds good against Goblins? What about Merfolk? Too slow?

[Tacosnape]

Thanks for the mucho help. Currently, I have 4 plagues and 2 rough/tumbles in my SB to battle Tribal decks. I don't run Burning wish in deck BTw. I was wondering if it's a good idea to swap any of these 6 sides for other ones such as pithing needle and ingot chewers as mentioned?

Also, are Deeds good against Goblins? What about Merfolk? Too slow?

Deed's better against Merfolk than Goblins for Survival. If you blow a Deed against Goblins, they're more often than not going to win the race to regain control of the clear board. Merfolk doesn't always have that much card advantage, but some builds run Stifle, and if they Stifle your Deed you'll probably lose by virtue of spending 5-6 mana for their 1. That said, I'm not a fan of Deed in Survival.

I think with your sideboard, though, you should probably be good. 4 Plagues and 2 Rough/Tumbles is a ton of tribal hate. I'm running very little tribal hate (2-3 slots in board max), and I do okay, so you definitely should. If I expected a lot of tribal hate, I'd take my sideboard above, -2 Aether Vial, -1 Blitz Hellion, +3 Tribal Hate of some sort. Probably Engineered Plague.

(EDIT: The reason I run a Blitz Hellion is that it's the best creature I can find to tutor up to get rid of Planeswalkers. It does the trick very effectively.)

Also, Firespout's a better bet against Merfolk, but R/T's better against Goblins, so whichever works for you.

[hungryboi]

ATM I am expecting everything in my meta except for storm combo.

My Side:

4 X Relic of Progenitus
1 X Deed
1 X Magus
3 X Grips
2 X Rough/Tumbles
4 X Engineered Plagues

How is relic of Progenitus compared to Leyline of Void? Also, are there any cards that I should be including in my side if I am expecting to play vs a good amount of Control and Tribal (I have 2 deeds MD for control)?

[beastman]

Whats the point in running 1 deed?

[hungryboi]

originally I had 3 deeds in SD but now 2 are in MD and 1 is still left in the SD. Deeds are strong against all the random control matchups. They pop mishra lands. Laying one down before anyone plays anything usually gives survival time to set up a strong hand by not allowing anyone to over commit.

[beastman]

1 isnt worth the slot though. That slot would be better as a second magus IMO

[Tacosnape]

ATM I am expecting everything in my meta except for storm combo.

My Side:

4 X Relic of Progenitus
1 X Deed
1 X Magus
3 X Grips
2 X Rough/Tumbles
4 X Engineered Plagues

How is relic of Progenitus compared to Leyline of Void? Also, are there any cards that I should be including in my side if I am expecting to play vs a good amount of Control and Tribal (I have 2 deeds MD for control)?

Relic of Progenitus is a terrible idea. You're one of the most graveyard dependent decks in the format. Run things that don't sabotage your own strategy.

You can make the Leyline/Extirpate/Crypt/Loaming/Macabre argument all day long, since each of these won't destroy your own graveyard in the process. But Relic doesn't belong here.

[hungryboi]

Relic of Progenitus is a terrible idea. You're one of the most graveyard dependent decks in the format. Run things that don't sabotage your own strategy.

You can make the Leyline/Extirpate/Crypt/Loaming/Macabre argument all day long, since each of these won't destroy your own graveyard in the process. But Relic doesn't belong here.

Yeah you're totally right. I was testing it over the weekend and it sucks.

[Tacosnape]

Yeah you're totally right. I was testing it over the weekend and it sucks.

I've found that the maindeck Loaming Shaman and 1-2 boarded Faerie Macabre has been plenty of yard hate for me. Shaman's been the MVP. He's on color, selects what he wants to put back, beats for 3, and just generally gets the job done. Macabre's better for when you need the yard hate to be inexpensive and at instant speed rather than slow but powerful.

Keep in mind that I can get by in the Ichorid match with this given that I can keep my opponent off Bridge by running a ridiculous amount of evoke creatures. If you aren't and you expect Ichorid, run a little more.

I'm not a huge fan of Crypt. Relic is terrible here. And unless your meta is ridiculously yard-heavy, I wouldn't play Leyline. If you're expecting a metagame comprising of Ichorid and Survival mirrors, sure, but otherwise? Not so much.

Extirpate's a fair option, especially if your builds are more controllish like mine. I don't run it at present, but if you do, pack a Fulminator Mage or a Dwarven Miner in sideboard. They help in some matchups by themselves, and being able to shut certain decks off of a color with LD/Extirpate is terrifically underrated sometimes.

[hungryboi]

I've found that the maindeck Loaming Shaman and 1-2 boarded Faerie Macabre has been plenty of yard hate for me. Shaman's been the MVP. He's on color, selects what he wants to put back, beats for 3, and just generally gets the job done. Macabre's better for when you need the yard hate to be inexpensive and at instant speed rather than slow but powerful.

Keep in mind that I can get by in the Ichorid match with this given that I can keep my opponent off Bridge by running a ridiculous amount of evoke creatures. If you aren't and you expect Ichorid, run a little more.

I'm not a huge fan of Crypt. Relic is terrible here. And unless your meta is ridiculously yard-heavy, I wouldn't play Leyline. If you're expecting a metagame comprising of Ichorid and Survival mirrors, sure, but otherwise? Not so much.

Extirpate's a fair option, especially if your builds are more controllish like mine. I don't run it at present, but if you do, pack a Fulminator Mage or a Dwarven Miner in sideboard. They help in some matchups by themselves, and being able to shut certain decks off of a color with LD/Extirpate is terrifically underrated sometimes.

I've actually ran into a 43land.dec at a local tournament and wouldn't be surprised if loam or some kinds of graveyard recurring land desc were in my meta. I like Macabre in MD because it's strong vs loam and other decks that recycle wastelands. I am currently running 4 leylines in the side. The thing about Loaming Shaman is that it doesn't remove the graveyard from the game, but rather lets my opponent reshuffle. It also doesn't come out at instant speed like macabre. Leylines are preferred because they are a pain to deal. People have used Leyline, Crypt, and Extirpate against me and I would say that Leyline is the most annoying. Crypt comes a close 2nd but is easier to counter, discard, and can only be used once. My testing partner who uses loam and other land recurring decks also agrees that Leyline has been the best anti graveyard card.

[Guy I Don't Know]

Hello everyone. I have a slight variant of survival based more on card advantage than discard. In my meta there is not ANT so I took out hate cards for that deck. With no further ado:

Maindeck

4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Forest
4 Taiga
4 Savannah
2 Plateau

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Aether Vial

4 Survival of the Fittest

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Eternal Witness
3 Kitchen Finks

4 Ajani Vengeant
3 Path to Exile

1 Faerie Macabre
1 Intrepid Hero
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Anger
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1 Genesis
1 Spore Frog
1 Qasali Pridemage

Sideboard
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Ingot Chewer
1 Wispmare
3 Krosan Grip
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Wild Nacatl

A card that may jump out at you is Ajani Vengeant. So far he has tested well especially versus decks that do not have enough creatures to remove him effectively.

Other key differences is not playing black. Although not having Shriekmaw is a loss, without discard there is less of an incentive to play black. In my opinion, not running black provides a disadvantage against other suvival decks and an argument could be for a disadvantage against combo(although in my experience, the discard survival plays is largely irrelevant when playing ANT, which I consider one of the better T1 win combo decks of present). Against other survival decks it is similar to the Faeries mirror match where bitterblossom beats no bitterblossom and Thoughtseize Bitterblossom beats Bitterblossom (Survival of the Fittest is the 2cc enchantment that you are fighting over in the mirror match obviously).

EDIT: Also without discard you cannot rely on it to push through a survival against counterspells. While I have not found it that crucial to land a survival to win (definitely easier to win with survival in play), it is a valid point to make.

I would like to point out that most decks run a combination of FOW, Daze, Counterbalance, and Spell Snare as their counterspell package if they run any at all. Daze can be played around and counterbalance cannot be stopped by discard once it is in play. In my experience, FOW has a lot of targets and can't counter them all (Goyf, Witness, Ajani, Survival). This leaves Spell Snare as the most annoying counterspell when playing a survival (esp. because of limited abilities). I do not like getting spell snared and if this card gains in popularity then I would definitely consider switching to black.

With these weakness there are some benefits that come from this decklist. Playing white gives you Ajani Vengeant and Path to exile/Swords to plowshares.

Anyway, any comments are welcomed (especially negative ones).

Issues that I am debating as of now:

1 Spore Frog main- it shines against elves and dredge but against other decks is underwhelming, although against aggro it can be used as a genesis lock while playing kitchen finks to stabilize(with the help of aether vial and rofellos).

Path to exile main over swords to plowshares? I basically am set on Path to exiles although i could be convinced otherwise. I like path because it can shuffle in recurred artifacts with academy ruins if the person is awful (to the defense of the awful path to exile is not played as much as stp) and also does not have them gain life which allows you to dome them with ajani for the win more frequently.

Qasali Pridemage vs. other arti/enchantment hate- I like Qasali Pridemage because he is good without survival and is castable with survival. I used to have Wickerbough but against counterbalance decks he would get countered anyways with fow and he is slow. Also I rationalized that against decks thatthe 4/4 body mattered, he would not be too expensive or not needed at the time. In addition, I save a sideboard slot of Qasali Pridemage against decks that may or may not have artifact such as umezawa's jitte.

The sideboard is pretty self explanatory although i'll go over it anyways. The Sharpshooter is to get rid of 1/1s *cough* elves/goblins *cough*. The ingot chewer and wispmare are to streamline your arti/enchantment hate against decks that have a lot of those. The Krosan Grips are for the same thing. The Umezawa's Jitte are for aggro, mostly because if they have one and i don't i'll most likely lose, and against goblins they are similar to engineered plague. Swords to Plowshares is for killing dudes and against burn (swords your own guy). Wild Nacatl is there for when you want to apply pressure or have a solid blocker.

Wild Nacatl and aether vial are two interesting cards to me. Wild Nacatl seems good enough to be in the maindeck over aether vial. My conclusion so far is that aether vial is better versus land disruption (be it stax/dragonstompy or canadian thresh) and wild nacatl is better versus everything else. The most interesting thing is when you sideboard, decks that you would think aether vial is good against is not always necessarily true. The main reason being is that while people sometimes see it as a anti counter measure, what it really is is a mana source/accelerant.Therefore games of attrition, such as against countertopgoyf you would sideboard it out.

For example against andy probasco's deck which i like to call Brassman Blues:

-4 Aether Vial
-4 Noble Hierarch
-1 Spore Frog
+4 Wild Nacatl
+3 Krosan Grip
+1 Wispmare
+1 Ingot Chewer

In this setup you take out Aether Vial and Noble Hierarch who do very little in the late game for wild nacatl and disenchant effects. Wild nacatl is a awesome turn one play just like aether vial and noble hierarch, but has more of an impact in the late game and in mutiples.

Another matchup sideboarding strategy is against zoo
+ 4 Wild Nacatl
+ 3 Swords to Plowshares
+ 2 Umezawa's Jitte
- 4 Aether Vial
-1 Rofellos
-1 Genesis
-1 Faerie Macabre
-1 Anger
-1 Spore Frog

In this setup you take out creatures that don't do anything important and aether vial. Because a survival is primarily used to search up a dude every turn and play it to block until you are comfortable attacking, anger is not needed, and genesis is too many hungry. without genesis spore frog and rofellos are not needed and faerie macabre is just useless. Because it is a game of attrition (who has more creatures or aces such as jitte) aether vial is not needed, especially with the lower curve.

Against Canadian Thresh I am not sure what strategy should be implemented but i think that at the moment, the strategy should be the same as game one. Basically you want to get out survival or ajani without dying and win from there. They don't have disenchant targets so a small tweaks is all I would do, although i would like to test different strategies against thresh and also hear input from others

-1 Qasali Pridemage
+1 Swords to Plowshares

One strategy I am contemplating is treating it like a zoo deck with land disruption (which it basically is) and also sideboarding:
-1 Anger
-1 Intrepid Hero
-1 Genesis
-1 Spore Frog
-1 Rofellos
-1 Ajani Vengeant
+4 Wild Nacatl
+2 Swords to Plowshares

This additional sideboard i think is most valid on the draw where lowering your curve can help against there added tempo. The reason I am unsure is that with aethervials still in the deck genesis is still strong and intrepid hero is still strong with anger when you have survival but with added swords to plowshares eternal witness maybe able to replace genesis in functionality.

And finally against ANT
Concede and both go get lunch, otherwise sit and get beat for no good reason. I guess you can side in wild nacatls and other less useless cards and hope to mise but with this build your best chance is to have them fizzle themselves.

I previously had this as the board when ANT was big in my meta

4 Wild Nacatl
3 Krosan grip
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Orim's Chant
1 Silence
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ethersworn Cannonist

while siding in
+4 Wild Nacatl
+4 Orim's Chant
+1 Silence
+1 Gaddock Teeg
+1 Ethersworn Cannonist
-4 Ajani Vengeant
-3 Path to Exile
-1 Genesis
-1 Spore Frog
-1 Intrepid Hero
-1 Rofellos

basically mull to orim's chant/silence or if on the play gaddock teeg/cannonist and go to town.

Hope you find my take interesting and it helps you design your own survival deck.

P. S. If you read this you are get a gold star.

[beastman]

The discard suite isn't just meant for combo. What ways do you have to force down survival? Thoughtsieze is an integral part of a controlling build of survival, unless you wanna splash blue for force.

[leander?]

P. S. If you read this you are get a gold star.
Thanks.

[leander?]

Here's my current list.

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
4 Bayou
4 Savannah
4 Taiga
2 Forest

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Survival of the Fittest

4 Birds of Paradise
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Eternal Witness
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Genesis
1 Anger
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Ingot Chewer
1 Wispmare
1 Shriekmaw
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Loxodon Hierarch

SB:
2 Aether Vial
1 Ingot Chewer
2 Krosan Grip
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
3 Shriekmaw
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Blitz Hellion
1 Faerie Macabre
2 Gaddock Teeg
I've been testing it for a while and I'm liking it very much. There's just one thing I can't understand. Why run Hierarch when you can have Finks? The up- and downsides of both should be obvious, but I just can't see how Hierarch's upside (little bigger) can be better than Fink's (Persist, cheaper (You stated yourself that this is a fundamental factor when filling your slots))

[beastman]

I believe that finks is always the better choice for the deck. If your playing therapy, there is no reason not to play finks over heirarch. Heirarch is basically just an overcosted bullseye for removal.

[hungryboi]

I've been debating between Loxodon Heirarch and Kitchen Finks.

Heirarch requires white
4 to cast
Lets you instantly gain 4 life
allows your creatures to regenerate
is fatter
awesome at avoiding CB


Kitchen Finks is easier and faster to cast
persist
allows you to gain 2 life instantly while other 2 life is dependent
synergy w/ cabal
decent at avoiding CB

[beastman]

In all my time playing heirarch (whole time he was legal in t2) I have never once seen his regen ability be useful. He is just more expensive, color intensive and less synergetic with therapy. Finks is faster, easier on mana, and he only beats for one less anyway, which, in a format strung out on goyf is hardly a difference as niether can go toe to toe with one by the time they get out. Only difference is that finks can chump him twice.

[hungryboi]

So I was wondering...Path to exile or Swords? Is it a preference thing? Which is better for Survival?

[beastman]

Swords is much better in this deck. Giving them life matters very little, as you usually have a bunch of large tarmagoyfs swinging at them by the end. Giving them a land helps them be able to do more to combat your startegey, albeit very little. The fact is that niether one is very hampering to your game plan, swords just does better.

[Guy I Don't Know]

well swords is nice versus anything less than 3 power and path is nice versus tarmogoyf.i have found the life gain as a bigger bonus than the extra land to the opponent. Stp is useful against burn because you can gain life targeting your own creatures. Path can be used to shuffle cards brought back by academy ruins. I think it is a lot of personal preference and whether a few points of life matter more than a land.

[sauce]

our metagame consists of:
1 belcher deck
1-2 suiblack decks
random decks like zoo/cb show up too
i threw something together, and want comments from you guys...

4 wilt-leaf liege
4 kitchen finks
4 tarmogoyf
4 swords to plowshares
4 birds of paradise
1 shriekmaw
1 fleshbag marauder
1 big game hunter
1 mystic enforcer
1 gaddock teeg
1 rofellos
1 quirion ranger
1 enlightened tutor
1 goblin sharpshooter
1 genesis
1 anger
1 squee
4 survival of the fittest
1 eternal witness
1 seedborn muse

1 volrath's stronghold
1 plains
1 swamp
3 forest
2 taiga
4 savannah
4 bayou
4 windswept heath
2 bloodstained mire

things i may consider are spore frog instead of seedborn and maybe big game hunter goes out for intrepid hero, unsure whats better in the long run, i guess intrepid since you can untap it w/ quirion.

[KrzyMoose]

For example against andy probasco's deck which i like to call Brassman Blues:

-4 Aether Vial
-4 Noble Hierarch
-1 Spore Frog
+4 Wild Nacatl
+3 Krosan Grip
+1 Wispmare
+1 Ingot Chewer


That can't be right. AEther Vial is insane in that matchup.

[beastman]

our metagame consists of:
1 belcher deck
1-2 suiblack decks
random decks like zoo/cb show up too
i threw something together, and want comments from you guys...

4 wilt-leaf liege
4 kitchen finks
4 tarmogoyf
4 swords to plowshares
4 birds of paradise
1 shriekmaw
1 fleshbag marauder
1 big game hunter
1 mystic enforcer
1 gaddock teeg
1 rofellos
1 quirion ranger
1 enlightened tutor
1 goblin sharpshooter
1 genesis
1 anger
1 squee
4 survival of the fittest
1 eternal witness
1 seedborn muse

1 volrath's stronghold
1 plains
1 swamp
3 forest
2 taiga
4 savannah
4 bayou
4 windswept heath
2 bloodstained mire

things i may consider are spore frog instead of seedborn and maybe big game hunter goes out for intrepid hero, unsure whats better in the long run, i guess intrepid since you can untap it w/ quirion.

Your match against sui decks should already be decent, I really rally dont think you should be playing the lieges. I'm not sure why you run 4 finks either unless you just want a more aggresive build, which is fine. Overall, I would cut the muse, the tutor, and the lieges for thoughtsiezes and therapies, they are amazing in this deck.

[sauce]

liege is there for hymn to tourach and also for pump on my goyfs, finks and bops.
i am probably going to cut some for cabal therapies like you said since i need to recur things for fun and profit. :cool:

[Tacosnape]

@The 500 Finks/versus/Hierarch discussions.

I run one of them main and one of them in the board. Because they both have situations where they're better and I can tutor for whichever I need more.

If you don't think Loxodon Hierarch's regeneration ability is relevant, you've obviously never played against much in the Pernicious Deed world. Finks may come back from a Deed, but Hierarch can save Tarmogoyfs from it.

Hierarch's bigger and you get the life faster. More pointedly, he's bigger at just the right amount. 4/4 that gains you 4 is fantastic against a lot of stuff. He's universally big enough to block most anything Merfolk or Zoo can throw at you and either live or trade, the exception being a 4/5 or larger Tarmogoyf. Kitchen Finks won't, for example, stop an attacking Wild Nacatl that's Exalted off a Pridemage. Hierarch can. Hierarch also makes them spend a burn spell on it to get the Nacatl through if they don't have a Pridemage.

Hierarch also gets you the life -now-, in case you can't Therapy-flash the guy. Hierarch also dodges Counterbalance. And size matters. Period.

Kitchen Finks, however, has his moments. He's a turn faster than Hierarch from your hand. He doesn't require you hit a splash color to play. He's incredible, as mentioned, with Cabal Therapy. He's solid enough to where depending on the metagame, I'll maindeck him and board the Hierarch.

For versatility's sake, the Burrenton Forge-Tender is anti-red guy #3. He's better than the other two against Price of Progress, helps against fast red threats that start with G and end with Oblin Lackey, and recurs inexpensively with Genesis.

[beastman]

@The 500 Finks/versus/Hierarch discussions.

I run one of them main and one of them in the board. Because they both have situations where they're better and I can tutor for whichever I need more.

If you don't think Loxodon Hierarch's regeneration ability is relevant, you've obviously never played against much in the Pernicious Deed world. Finks may come back from a Deed, but Hierarch can save Tarmogoyfs from it.

Hierarch's bigger and you get the life faster. More pointedly, he's bigger at just the right amount. 4/4 that gains you 4 is fantastic against a lot of stuff. He's universally big enough to block most anything Merfolk or Zoo can throw at you and either live or trade, the exception being a 4/5 or larger Tarmogoyf. Kitchen Finks won't, for example, stop an attacking Wild Nacatl that's Exalted off a Pridemage. Hierarch can. Hierarch also makes them spend a burn spell on it to get the Nacatl through if they don't have a Pridemage.

Hierarch also gets you the life -now-, in case you can't Therapy-flash the guy. Hierarch also dodges Counterbalance. And size matters. Period.

Kitchen Finks, however, has his moments. He's a turn faster than Hierarch from your hand. He doesn't require you hit a splash color to play. He's incredible, as mentioned, with Cabal Therapy. He's solid enough to where depending on the metagame, I'll maindeck him and board the Hierarch.

For versatility's sake, the Burrenton Forge-Tender is anti-red guy #3. He's better than the other two against Price of Progress, helps against fast red threats that start with G and end with Oblin Lackey, and recurs inexpensively with Genesis.

If you need heirarch to save you from deed control decks, your not playing the deck right. Genesis gives you too much advantage for those decks to handle, And I'd rather not play out that many expensive threats if you're worried about deed being played.

[Tacosnape]

If you need heirarch to save you from deed control decks, your not playing the deck right. Genesis gives you too much advantage for those decks to handle, And I'd rather not play out that many expensive threats if you're worried about deed being played.

Okay, let's dissect why this is an awful post.

1. I pointed out Hierarch is strong against Deed in a very specific situation. This in no way calls my skill with the deck into question, which I assure you is high. I play Survival better than I play any other deck in the format. I am 34-2-0 lifetime in matches with Survival in sanctioned tournaments. It's a large reason why my Eternal ranking is #9 in the world. So keep your mouth shut.

2. Genesis alone doesn't shut down any deck running Deed. Decks running Deed can and often do have means to attack a graveyard, as doing so is almost mandatory for true control decks now.

3. You're arguing -against- things with high converted mana cost against Deed. Making them spend seven over two turns to -attempt- to sweep my board (And fail unless I'm tapped out) is something I'm alright with.

Now, I'm not advocating you should go fetch up Loxodon Hierarch as a solution to Pernicious Deed. I'm saying that if you get it, it can be useful. I'm also saying that if you've got a pair of Tarmogoyfs down and your opponent drops a Deed, and you have the mana to drop a Hierarch with GW open, you're very probably going to win the game right then and there. The regeneration ability isn't irrelevant.

Additionally, I listed several other reasons why Loxodon Hierarch deserves consideration alongside Kitchen Finks, who I also run, that have nothing to do with Pernicious Deed.

[beastman]

A little touchy are we? No one called your play skill into question so there is no need for an attack like that. Second, If we're here to stroke our E-peens, I'll have you know that I day 2ed the second largest American grand prix with survival, so I know a thing or two about the deck. Lastly, as I was saying about heirarch, your justification of him being in the deck is that he has his ability regenerate your team against one card (which is really only played in decks that we don't have trouble with anyways).
As I said, I am calling nobody's playskill into question, I am just saying that you're logic for including heirarch seems flawed to me. So let's keep the flaming out of this thread.

[Guy I Don't Know]

I like finks because if you think that goyfs are going to be 4/5 they block twice.

On a different note, what do you think the pros and cons of running one top in mainboard? I have found against control deck such as elspeth in wonderland that i would be winning if i had card manipulation (whenever i draw versus them it is awesome) but it is mana intensive against aggro. Also there could be the argument that 1 top will rarely be drawn while a silver bullet creature will have more of a effect. (P.S. I know that 1 top in the main is most likely a bad idea but trying to find other choices for some CA/manipulation so i dont lose vs. control decks b/c i draw 3-5 lands in a row)

Talking about being able to tutor up a loxodon hierarch to protect tarmogoyfs against deed seems like a farfetched idea, if not a misplay. For hierarch to be effective they would of had to play deed and not blown it. if they pass the turn with not enough open to blow deed wouldn't you search your enchantment destruction and kill it? And if they do have the mana they can use it response to hierarch. The effective scenario against deed would be if you played hierarch premptive to deed. In that scenario it may shine.

Also what are your takes on goblin sharpshooter vs. masticore against tribal (would you play either and if so which one?)

P.S. im glad both of you have success with survival

[beastman]

About top, with no way to actually draw it consistently, its kind of a wasted slot, I'd much rather have a utility creature there.
About Masticore Vs. Sharpshooter, I don't think sharpshooter really does very much against tribal because of all the lords. Masticore is great because with rofells and queer ranger you can generate massive amounts of mana to machine down an entire team. Also, you can pitch him to survival for a surprise goyf pump, which has won me many games.

[Tacosnape]

Talking about being able to tutor up a loxodon hierarch to protect tarmogoyfs against deed seems like a farfetched idea, if not a misplay. For hierarch to be effective they would of had to play deed and not blown it. if they pass the turn with not enough open to blow deed wouldn't you search your enchantment destruction and kill it? And if they do have the mana they can use it response to hierarch. The effective scenario against deed would be if you played hierarch premptive to deed. In that scenario it may shine.

Doesn't anybody here read? At all? There's no misplay about anything I described. It just has to be a fairly exact set of narrow circumstances. Playing Red Ward on a 5/6 Tarmogoyf and swinging against Mono-Red Goblins when Goblins player is at 5 is not an incorrect play. You can argue that somebody's an idiot for including Red Ward in a deck and have validity. But there's a huge difference between questioning a card choice and questioning a play made with said card.

You need to have at least two threats, one of which is actually good, on the board worth protecting. They need to have just played a Deed out with four or less lands, thereby not being able to blow it up for two without an untap step. You have a Survival out with access to seven mana next turn, dividable into chunks of :2::g::g::w: and :g::w:. You also need to not be playing Qasali Pridemage, in which case the better play is to get the Pridemage and kill the Deed. You also need to be reasonably sure that these two or more threats you're protecting will end the game within the next turn or two, else you should just get a Witness and be ready to grab back your Survival.

All that said, from there, it's simple. You fetch the Hierarch next turn, play him with GW untapped, swing with your guys. Go from there.

This is an uncommon, narrow circumstance. Nobody's arguing anything to the contrary. But it's happened to me. Multiple times. The point I'm defending, more than Hierarch's inclusion, is that its regenerative ability does have uses on rare selective occasions.


Also what are your takes on goblin sharpshooter vs. masticore against tribal (would you play either and if so which one?)

Neither. Having postboard access to playsets of STP/Shriekmaw/Witness/Goyf gives me pretty decent tribal matchups, and I can bring in Plague/Clasm/Spout from the board if need be.

Either one is an okay pick though. Sharpshooter has savage synergy with evoke, and Masticore if all else fails gives you an artifact to survival in your yard to pump your Tarmogoyfs.

[TOGITwill]

Just wanted some input on my list...

3 Savannah
3 Bayou
2 Taiga
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
1 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills

4 Survival of the Fittest
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Cabal Therapy

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Eternal Witness
4 Birds of Paradise

1 Genesis
1 Squee
1 Anger
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Shriekmaw
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Spore Frog
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Rofellos
1 Kitchen Finks

Sideboard:

I'm not quite sure what I want my sideboard to be, but right now it looks like:

3 Vindicate
3 Krosan Grip
2 Null Rod
2 Sphere of Law
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Orim's Chant
1 ?

I like the Kitchen Finks over Hierarch only because it comes down a turn faster and is essentially a free Cabal Therapy flashback. I'm not sure if I want to keep the Nightmare, but it just becomes silly with Kitchen Finks that I don't know if I'd want to be missing out on some of that.

[Guy I Don't Know]

i strongly suggest playing 4 eternal witnesses and you may want to consider playing an academy rector ( you are playing a variety of enchantments)

you could take out spore frog or teeg to make room...

Not knowing your meta it is hard to make suggestions

also the plains seems questionable but i could see if people have a lot of moon or wasteland effect ( i have lost games in testing due to non green sources of mana )

[Guy I Don't Know]

I changed my deck significantly so I thought i might as well post it.

Maindeck

4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Forest
4 Taiga
4 Savannah
1 Plateau

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Eternal Witness
2 Kitchen Finks
3 Ajani Vengeant
3 Path to Exile
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Intrepid Hero
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Anger
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1 Genesis
1 Acidic Slime
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Quirion Dryad
1 Masticore

Sideboard
1 Spore Frog
1 Ingot Chewer
1 Wispmare
3 Krosan Grip
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Kitchen Finks
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Orim's Chant

Acidic Slime is very nice against Counter top in my opinion.

Alternative sideboar could be:
-2 Orim's Chant
+1 Magus of the Moon
+1 Acidic Slime/Kitchen Finks/BFT/Misc.

[Zach Tartell]

I think that you'll find that 4 of a legendary perenant isn't very good for business.

[AngryTroll]

On a different note, what do you think the pros and cons of running one top in mainboard?



About top, with no way to actually draw it consistently, its kind of a wasted slot, I'd much rather have a utility creature there.


Well, Beastman, if by "wasted slot" you mean "a card that's the second best card in your deck, behind Survival of the Fittest", than you are exactly correct!

Survival is a mana-hungry deck. If you draw Survival but not top, a mana-heavy deck is an advantage. If you draw Top but not Survival, you are at an advantage. If you draw and resolve both Top and Survival, you should just win.

You probably have to make a VERY strong argument to not include Top in Survival. If you draw one or the other, your chances of finding your silver bullets increase. If you draw neither, well, times are rough. If you draw both, for GG1 you find a Goyf ever turn. For 2GG, you draw the best of your top three cards, then find a Goyf, and shuffle for your next turn's top three cards.

[Tacosnape]

Thing is, though, Survival -is- a very mana hungry deck. In a format that really doesn't afford you a hell of a lot of time. Legacy has gotten so fast that resolving a Survival isn't always enough to clean up a situation. Survival has to spend a lot of mana to get set up.

Top, while very useful in theory in this deck, doesn't help this situation. You don't have a lot of time or spare mana to be spending on the top activations to really fully abuse it here. My experiences playing with it were that while it won me games that stalled out into the mid and late games, it lost me nearly as many by making my deck a little bit too slow.

In its defense, however, Top is fantastic at keeping discard off the top of my library in the midgame. But I think that if I were going to run Top, 1 would be the number I'd run, and it'd have to beat out my seventh maindeck discard slot. And given how bad I want the eighth one back maindeck, I can't justify it at this point.

[AngryTroll]

Thing is, though, Survival -is- a very mana hungry deck. In a format that really doesn't afford you a hell of a lot of time. Legacy has gotten so fast that resolving a Survival isn't always enough to clean up a situation. Survival has to spend a lot of mana to get set up.

Top, while very useful in theory in this deck, doesn't help this situation. You don't have a lot of time or spare mana to be spending on the top activations to really fully abuse it here. My experiences playing with it were that while it won me games that stalled out into the mid and late games, it lost me nearly as many by making my deck a little bit too slow.

In its defense, however, Top is fantastic at keeping discard off the top of my library in the midgame. But I think that if I were going to run Top, 1 would be the number I'd run, and it'd have to beat out my seventh maindeck discard slot. And given how bad I want the eighth one back maindeck, I can't justify it at this point.

Really? If you are willing to run an engine as mana-hungry as Survival, Top is easily justified in the maindeck. Like I said earlier, with fetches and a fairly redundant maindeck (4 Goyf, a pair or three removal spells like Shriekmaw, Survivals, Swords, and Wickerbough Elders and Pridemages), Top is ABSOLUTELY worth 1 a turn. With Survival, you are willing to spend G a turn for the best creature in your deck. Spending one a turn to try to find a 12-of (4 Survival, 4 Goyf, 3 Removal Creatures, 3 Removal Spells/3 Swords, maybe an additional 3 Pridemages) is well worth it.

Top may not be a four of in Survival, but it's probably a three of. With just Fetches, you have as many shuffle effects as most Thresh decks. With Survival, you pay 1GG a turn for a Goyf, and 1 a turn for the best of your top three cards (and you shuffled this turn)!


Without Counterbalance, when Thresh Tops, they spend 1 to look for Goyf, CB, Force, and fetches. When Survival spends 1 to Top, it's looking for Goyf, Survival, Burning Wish, Quasali Pridemage, and fetches. Maybe it's just me, but that seems AT LEAST as strong as the best deck in the format's Top activations.

[hungryboi]

I must agree with troll about top. Although top is not a 4 of, it can get you the quality draws that you need. Whether it is that swords, savannah, or whatever, top gives you a very good likelihood of drawing it. I would actually much rather see top in my opening hand than survival. Top dodges spellsnare, it dogdes daze better.

[coraz86]

I think Taco's point is not that Top is bad, but that it isn't quite good enough compared to the other cards he has in that slot. The proactive discard spells help a lot in this deck, so it would be a bad idea to cut one of those. The only thing I can see (admittedly having not played with his most recently posted build (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=360435&postcount=1090)) is one of the Witnesses. Being a longtime habitual Rock player, though, I can tell you that I have a terribly hard time justifying cutting a witness.

[Tacosnape]

I think Taco's point is not that Top is bad, but that it isn't quite good enough compared to the other cards he has in that slot. The proactive discard spells help a lot in this deck, so it would be a bad idea to cut one of those. The only thing I can see (admittedly having not played with his most recently posted build (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=360435&postcount=1090)) is one of the Witnesses. Being a longtime habitual Rock player, though, I can tell you that I have a terribly hard time justifying cutting a witness.

Agreed. And I'd never ever ever cut a Witness. Witness wins games. Witness is ridiculous with Therapy, Swords, Shriekmaw, other Witnesses, and Survivals that got countered or knocked out of your hand.

[hungryboi]

ATM I am running 2 witness in MD. The problem is that they are a bit hard to cast at times since they cost so much mana (easier to daze). They are a very good TopDeck, but i would rather see lower cc stuff in my opening hand. They also rely heavily on the graveyard. The fact that we use Survival, goyfs, and Witness means that without the graveyard, we will be hurting really bad. That is why I have 2 tops and 2 Witnesses is what I prefer.

[Guy I Don't Know]

Do you think discard is still necessary... I find it a dead draw in the late/ mid game. In the early game it can be good. I was wondering if it would be better to play more cards that are good almost always. There seems to be a trend towards less discard in legacy (imo) and i think survival could benefit. Some have said that it is used to get survival down, which it can, but most decks except landstill run 4-8 hard counters (not counting counterbalance) for survival. Survival has 4 survivals and 4 eternal witnesses to combat the counters. I was thinking that playing cards that need to be countered in the slots of discard may be a good idea. At least the cabal therapy slots.

[Jak]

Do you think discard is still necessary... I find it a dead draw in the late/ mid game. In the early game it can be good. I was wondering if it would be better to play more cards that are good almost always. There seems to be a trend towards less discard in legacy (imo) and i think survival could benefit. Some have said that it is used to get survival down, which it can, but most decks except landstill run 4-8 hard counters (not counting counterbalance) for survival. Survival has 4 survivals and 4 eternal witnesses to combat the counters. I was thinking that playing cards that need to be countered in the slots of discard may be a good idea. At least the cabal therapy slots.

I won't disagree that discard can sometimes be a dead draw later on in the game, but it is necessary to slow combo down, make sure Survival resolves, and to play without a Survival. Even drawing it later on it can be good to take the counter out of the opponent's hand to ensure Survival lands. One of the only reasons I won with the deck when I didn't get a Survival was because I was able to rip hands apart with Thoughtseize or Therapy and beat down. Trying to just beat down with more creatures just doesn't work.

Also, there really aren't "other cards that need to be countered" so trying to bait out things to land Survival doesn't work when everything else sucks. I guess Magus would be okay, but most lists dropped him after moving towards four colors. There isn't anything else really game breaking. Discard just ends up serving you better.

[Tacosnape]

Are we really pointing out that discard is bad in the mid to late game? Like, does that actually warrant posts? I kind of thought that was something that everybody just knew.

People play discard because it's really good. In general, but even moreso in a deck where a large part of your success hinges on resolving a single card. While most Survival builds don't run anything to actually hunt up Survival (E.Tutor and to a lesser degree Top do this), we run discard and Witness to ensure we get the ones we do draw on to the board.

Discard is good against absolutely everything. Seriously. You need discard to fight combo. You need discard to fight control. You need discard to fight graveyard hate.

I'm not saying RGW versions of Survival aren't viable, but you'd better be packing something else to compensate, like Aether Vial.

[Guy I Don't Know]

Discard is bad in the mid to late game and survival is not a fast deck. Survival is not winning on tempo but card advantage. I don't see why adding cards that are dead draws in the late game is necessary. I can see run 4 discard spells b/c they are ok but 7 or 8? Most decks out there have deck manipulation such as brainstorm or top that can get rid of situational cards. Survival has none so situational cards should be kept to a miniumum.

EDIT: on a different note has anyone tried out lord of extiction? it seems interesting.

[beastman]

Discard is one of the parts of the deck that makes it viable. I challenge you to find a control or thresh opponent who won't blow you out with tempo or counters if you have no way to dictate what they do with their hand. This really isn't even worth discussing, you can test it if you want, but please stop bringing it up on the boards, its a waste of time.

[Tacosnape]

Discard is one of the parts of the deck that makes it viable. I challenge you to find a control or thresh opponent who won't blow you out with tempo or counters if you have no way to dictate what they do with their hand. This really isn't even worth discussing, you can test it if you want, but please stop bringing it up on the boards, its a waste of time.

Completely agreed. Discard is a monster. I'd never go below six main. Black is the second most important color in this deck, in my opinion.

[Hoojo]

Completely agreed. Discard is a monster. I'd never go below six main. Black is the second most important color in this deck, in my opinion.

Which is more important, 4x Cabal Therapy 2x Thoughtseize or vice versa?

Also, is a GBr version of the deck possible?

[Guy I Don't Know]

GBr is totally possible, This is a slightly old by dave price

Mainboard:
1 Genesis
2 Shriekmaw
2 Flametongue Kavu
1 Anger
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Big Game Hunter
4 Eternal Witness
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1 Tin Street Hooligan
4 Burning Wish
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Survival of the Fittest
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Thoughtseize
4 Birds of Paradise
5 Forest
4 Bayou
4 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Krosan Grip
1 Yixlid Jailer
1 Spike Feeder
1 Pyroclasm
1 Primal Command
1 Gleeful Sabotage
1 Chainer's Edict
1 Cabal Therapy

[lorddotm]

GBr is totally possible, This is a slightly old by dave price

Mainboard:
1 Genesis
2 Shriekmaw
2 Flametongue Kavu
1 Anger
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Big Game Hunter
4 Eternal Witness
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1 Tin Street Hooligan
4 Burning Wish
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Survival of the Fittest
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Thoughtseize
4 Birds of Paradise
5 Forest
4 Bayou
4 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Krosan Grip
1 Yixlid Jailer
1 Spike Feeder
1 Pyroclasm
1 Primal Command
1 Gleeful Sabotage
1 Chainer's Edict
1 Cabal Therapy

Ingot Chewer seems better than Tin Street Hooligan.

Also is adding white for Wrath in the Wishboard and Wispmare that bad?

[Zach Tartell]

Ingot Chewer seems better than Tin Street Hooligan.

Also is adding white for Wrath in the Wishboard and Wispmare that bad?

Yes. The only reason to add white is Swords. And (I suppose) Teeg, Cannonist, and a hundred other little cards that aren't necessary. Swords is the only really big thing missing without white.

[beastman]

I still prefer the RGBSA build. I really never got into the white splash. As for splashing white for wrath, why would'nt you just want to play damnation? Pyroclasm or rough/tumble are much better sweepers for this deck anyway, as they are easier to wish up and play on the same turn.

[Tacosnape]

The Seize/Therapy split depends on your creature base, I think. Thoughtseize is better if you're going the heavy evoke route. Therapy's better if you run things like Tin Street, Harmonic, Kitchen Finks, etc. I run a 4 Seize/3 Therapy split main, and when I experimented with running only 6, ran a 3/3 main with 1 of each in the sideboard.

RGB is completely possible. Around here it's more common than RGBW, actually.

[Tacosnape]

Ahh, Legacy tournaments are back. Won a small swiss today with Survival and didn't even drop a game. Went 2-0 against Ichorid, 2-0 against Rock, 2-0 against Goblins, and 2-0 against Landstill.

The following was my list:

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
4 Bayou
4 Savannah
3 Taiga
3 Forest

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Survival of the Fittest

4 Birds of Paradise
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Eternal Witness
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Genesis
1 Anger
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Shriekmaw
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Ingot Chewer
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Loxodon Hierarch

SB:
4 Engineered Plague
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Krosan Grip
1 Ingot Chewer
1 Pithing Needle
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Cabal Therapy

I cut a Taiga for a Forest since postboard I often don't even need red at all in the deck.

Pridemage replacing Wispmare came strictly because I knew I wasn't facing Counterbalance all day. Similarly, some of my board choices were based on the metagame. Needle was fantastic in the metagame, which was largely control and tribal decks. It won me a game against Landstill by shutting off Jace and won me a game against Goblins by shutting off Wasteland.

The things I learned today:

1. I'm still torn between Kitchen Finks and Hierarch. Kitchen Finks was good against everything I played except Ichorid. Hierarch randomly saved me in one of the games against Ichorid where Finks wouldn't have. Finks probably earned my maindeck slot today, though.

2. Engineered Plague is good. In a couple random practice games beforehand, I trashed Merfolk with it, using STP and Shriekmaw to keep the Lords at bay as best I could. It wrecked Goblins. It helped against Ichorid in practice, though I never saw one in the real tournament.

3. Pithing Needle is intriguing in Survival's sideboard. Stopping Wasteland, Vial, Deed, and EE are all nice, as was shutting off a Jace Beleren on a clear board.

I'll make changes to the board and detail the matches tomorrow when I'm halfway coherent.

[GiantGrowth]

What are everyone's thoughts on playing Burning Wish and a wishboard for further specializing your deck for certain matchups while not hurting the others, or the random jank matchup?

[zalachan]

Gratz for your finish, Taco. Im looking forward to your detailed breakdown, if possible:tongue:
I was wondering a few things:
-so you replaced Blitz with Needle? Is a singleton Needle enough, with no means to find it? I personally like Blitzy more, but im easily distracted by cool things so i cant really judge that.
I know that needle is a bit more versatile and shuts more than just planeswalkers, so its good as it is.
-do you like the manabase as it is now? i find it a bit too nonbasic for my taste and i would play one more basic swamp/plains, at least in SB or sth like that.
Ive been raped by mana denial a bit too often, but i havent played Survival since lorwyn came out and dont really know my meta, but i would guess its still polluted with Stifles , CB and Wastwelands.
-would you replace Pridemage with Wispmare if you were playing in a CB enviroment? Did you ever fetch Quasali because of exalting your Goyfs (creatures).
I play some version of The Rock(http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=27590) at the moment and they really shine there because of the Vial
-could you go through sideborarding choices, on play and on the draw? Maybe gameplan also (in short) against tier decks.
I would like to know about Ichorid boarding, how do you play it in 1st game and after boarding. Seems amazing that they can be beatable 1st game
(well, kinda know t1 Ichorid only, i guess its legacy counterpart is a bit slower).
-is CB/top still pain in the behind as it was? Okay, i played Burning Wishes back there, so i kinda begged to get pwnd by resolved CB because of many 1cc/2cc cards,
but thresh variants (or what they became now) used to be the decks we prey on, right?
- i find myself often drawing suboptimal hands with lots of nonbasics and particular toolbox creatures that just fold in against some decks.
Is it a keeper if i have mana, witness and a random tool (like Anger), but no discard or BoP? It bugs me cause i cant just sit on nonbasics for a couple of turns, just begging bad stuff to happen.
-How good is the deck in finding threats (like Survival, Goyf, Witness) when in topdecking mode?

Keep it up!

[beastman]

What are everyone's thoughts on playing Burning Wish and a wishboard for further specializing your deck for certain matchups while not hurting the others, or the random jank matchup?

I've been running the RGBSA build with wish for over a year. I like it alot because it can give you lock pieces like primal into witness and lock an opponent out. It's just another win condition that you can have if you don't draw survival.

[sauce]

why isnt tradewind rider/tropical island/fow version more popular?

[Tacosnape]

Brief summaries of the games from what I remember.

Round 1 - Jason w/ Ichorid.
Game 1: I keep the 7, he mulligans to 6 and keeps. I lead with a land, Bird, armed with a Survival and a Therapy in hand. He leads with Land, Breakthrough for 0, and ends up with a Troll, an Imp, two bridges, and an Ichorid in the yard. Could be worse, as I have Therapy flashback available and can always get Survival going if I topdeck a creature. I do. It's Loaming Shaman. He doesn't recover.
Game 2: Opening hand of three land, two survivals, witness, tarmogoyf. I sigh at the pretty cards and toss it back. My six has five land and a Swords. My five card hand is Bayou, Savannah, Survival, Ingot Chewer, Squee. I decide to pray his hand is slow and try to get a Macabre, knowing I've got game three if I fail. Jason's gone down to 5 also. He goes land, LED, Breakthrough, and I cringe, but he doesn't have a dredger. I untap, get a Heath, grab Taiga, and eat his Diamond and his Bridge. I then get a Loaming Shaman two turns later. Jason somehow recovers by topdecking Diamond and Breakthrough and nearly kills me off of it, but I manage to slow it down with Macabre. I save myself from being overrun with flying Narcomoebas by Hierarching from 3 back up to 7, then I manage to gradually STP them off while doing a Macabre/Genesis thingy. Goyfs get through.

Round 2: Chase w/ Rock.
Game 1: I get a Survival, he Living Wishes for Faerie Macabre. He ends up destroying my Survival, I knock the draw out of his hand. We get into threat topdeck mode. He gets two Tarmogoyfs. I STP one and drop a Goyf of my own, which gets STP'd. I topdeck Shriekmaw, hardcast it, and it somehow goes the distance.

Game 2: Extirpate keeps me off Squee and Genesis. then a Deed wrecks the board. We get into topdeck mode again. I get lots of Witnesses, a Goyf, STP, and Kitchen Finks to lead the charge and it's enough.

Round 3: David w/ RB Goblins
Game 1: I win the die roll. He starts with Gemstone Caverns. I Thoughtseize away a Lackey, get Survival down turn two, and go to town on his Vial. He gets only a Matron off a Ringleader, then next turn plays it for either another Ringleader or a Siege-Gang (I forget which). In one turn I manage to abuse Rofellos for two Tarmogoyfs, a Witness on Thoughtseize, and a Seize to take the big guy out of his hand. He topdecks Vials and loses.

Game 2: I mull to a five of Bayou, Heath, Therapy, Plague, Witness. He leads with Lackey. I Therapy him blind for Siege-Gang, miss, and he's got only a Ringleader, but he's got Wastelands in hand. Ugh. He goes Vial, Needle Survival, swing, drop the Ringleader, three misses and a Warchief. I untap and topdeck the Pithing Needle. Land, Needle on Wasteland. Next turn comes down a Plague to stabilize. Two turns later, Plague #2 shows up.

Round 4: Lucas w/ Landstill
Game 1: I lose the die roll and take Standstill with a blind Therapy. Two Survivls and a Witness in hand overwhelm his capacity for counters, and he doesn't hit any more draw. I steamroll him.

Game 2: Don't remember much about this game other than that I held back a turn one Needle in case he got a Jace. He got a Jace, I needled it. He draws a lot of lands and beats me down to around 6 with Factories, but I pull it out with Survival.


-so you replaced Blitz with Needle? Is a singleton Needle enough, with no means to find it? I personally like Blitzy more, but im easily distracted by cool things so i cant really judge that.

Probably not if I'm relying on finding it, but I'm really not relying on finding it. I never have the same sideboard twice with this deck and kind of piece it together every time I'm about to take the deck into action based on what I want to face. 2 would be the max I would ever run in Survival. I like shutting off Wasteland, Vial, Deed, Planeswalkers, etc. It's heavily a metagame call though and I'm not advocating it yet.




-do you like the manabase as it is now? i find it a bit too nonbasic for my taste and i would play one more basic swamp/plains, at least in SB or sth like that.
Ive been raped by mana denial a bit too often, but i havent played Survival since lorwyn came out and dont really know my meta, but i would guess its still polluted with Stifles , CB and Wastwelands.

I compensate for this by running 22 lands, 4 Birds, Rofellos, Quirion Ranger, and a lowass curve. I drop a few games to mana hate, but I think I'd drop more if I screwed with the base. Quirion Ranger guards against Wasteland, Birds are useful to fetch if I need a color I'm lacking, and I'll unapologetically get fetchlands/duals with Witness if I get to three mana. So yeah. I'm pretty happy with it. Going up to 22 land was the best thing I ever did.



-would you replace Pridemage with Wispmare if you were playing in a CB enviroment? Did you ever fetch Quasali because of exalting your Goyfs (creatures).

No and no. And if I expected a CB-heavy meta I'd be packing more Grips in board. I did a total of 1 extra point of damage from Exalted the whole tournament, just because I was smart enough to get my swing in before blowing up the Pridemage (Can't remember what at.)



I would like to know about Ichorid boarding, how do you play it in 1st game and after boarding. Seems amazing that they can be beatable 1st game
(well, kinda know t1 Ichorid only, i guess its legacy counterpart is a bit slower).

It's beatable just because it doesn't always do the jesus draw thing. And lucksacking the Loaming Shaman helped. Game 1 is still bad against Ichorid. And I'm probably going to go up to three Macabres in board.

I boarded as follows: +4 Plague, +2 Macabre, +1 Cabal Therapy, +1 Ingot Chewer. Can't remember what all I boarded out, but I remember boarding out the Thoughtseizes because I was on the draw, making a mental note to bring them back in if it got to game three. I have lots of Evoke guys to help with Bridges, the Macabres to slow them down early on or be decent with Genesis late game, the Loaming Shaman to just completely reset them, and the Plagues to stop Illusions and Horrors. It's a lot of small nuisances. and in no way do I claim to have a great Ichorid matchup. Macabres help, though.


i find myself often drawing suboptimal hands with lots of nonbasics and particular toolbox creatures that just fold in against some decks.
Is it a keeper if i have mana, witness and a random tool (like Anger), but no discard or BoP? It bugs me cause i cant just sit on nonbasics for a couple of turns, just begging bad stuff to happen.
-How good is the deck in finding threats (like Survival, Goyf, Witness) when in topdecking mode?

Well, the nice thing about the deck is that you can board out all irrelevant tools game 2, reducing the chances of this happening greatly. Depending on the matchups, I'll sometimes board out Genesis or Anger.

Mulliganing depends on the matchup a lot of times, and in the hand you illustrated, it depends on what else you have. Five land, Witness, and Anger is a definite toss. Three land, Witness, Anger, Swords, Ingot Chewer? Not great, but it depends on your matchup. Anger and Squee and Genesis aren't always dead in your hand. I use Squee to chump and flash Therapies a lot, and I've been known to go aggro with Anger and Genesis. But in general? You don't want to see these guys clogging up your opening hand.

Basically, if you don't think your seven is good enough to win, throw it back. Losing on a bad seven and Mulliganing into oblivion both end in the same result. The latter gives you a chance to get a miracle six or five, though.

[chokin]

why isnt tradewind rider/tropical island/fow version more popular?

Too slow. You need Tradewind+2 guys to start bouncing. It helps if it's Seedborn Muse so you can have extra activations (During your turn and during theirs). So you're already looking at a large mana investment of 4UUGG+X(Usually BOP?).

Yeah Rofellos and BOP speed it up, but STP on your TR and there goes your combo. It was fine years ago. But things change.

[Hoojo]

Ahh, Legacy tournaments are back. Won a small swiss today with Survival and didn't even drop a game. Went 2-0 against Ichorid, 2-0 against Rock, 2-0 against Goblins, and 2-0 against Landstill.

The following was my list:

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
4 Bayou
4 Savannah
3 Taiga
3 Forest

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Survival of the Fittest

4 Birds of Paradise
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Eternal Witness
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Genesis
1 Anger
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Shriekmaw
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Ingot Chewer
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Loxodon Hierarch

SB:
4 Engineered Plague
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Krosan Grip
1 Ingot Chewer
1 Pithing Needle
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Cabal Therapy


I'm missing something. Why Loaming Shaman?

[Tacosnape]

I'm missing something. Why Loaming Shaman?

Yay! I like this question.

1. Loaming Shaman is a complete, customizable assault on an opponent's graveyard. It can take everything if you want to keep a deck off of Threshold. It can virtually reset Ichorid (If, obviously, you live long enough). It can shut opponents off getting much use out of things like Eternal Witness. It lets you control Tarmogoyf size if your opponent has more of them than you do. It takes rogue flashback cards like Cabal Therapy, Call of the Herd, or Chainer's Edict away. It prevents Hellspark Elemental from recurring. It just hits tons and tons of random shit.

2. It's on color.

3. It gives you a body while it's doing this. This is very crucial.

4. In a complicated, roundabout way, it's actually good -against- graveyard hate. For example, it's not a very uncommon thing to have Squee, Genesis, or both knocked out of my yard, leaving me relying solely on Eternal Witness for card advantage. This can result in some neat stuff, as later in games you can Witness for a Witness for a Witness for whatever you need, etc. But four Witnesses can't recur everything. Against control or in any game that goes into a late game, Loaming Shaman can actually put all the Witnesses or relevant search targets back in your library.

5. If you don't get Survival game 1 and don't need the graveyard hate, it's better and easier to cast than Faerie Macabre.

Now, in matchups where I actually feel the need to board in graveyard hate, this generally means I want it to be fast and free. That means Faerie Macabre, and I keep switching between 2 and 3 copies depending on what I expect to face. So Macabre lives in by board en masse and Shaman lives in my maindeck.

[Black Mass]

Same list, other question, why loxodon hierarch? What does he bring in your board? I myself am a huge fan of Kitchen Finks in that position due to the fact that he mostly gains 4 life, like hierarch is much better with therapy, can chump goyf twice, is much easier to cast with rofellos, but has a power less and cant regenerate your board (but I can't say I have ever been in a position to use that)

[beastman]

Same list, other question, why loxodon hierarch? What does he bring in your board? I myself am a huge fan of Kitchen Finks in that position due to the fact that he mostly gains 4 life, like hierarch is much better with therapy, can chump goyf twice, is much easier to cast with rofellos, but has a power less and cant regenerate your board (but I can't say I have ever been in a position to use that)

Finks and Heirarch was discussed a page or two back. I also prefer Finks, due to his amazing synergy with therapy.

[Tacosnape]

Same list, other question, why loxodon hierarch? What does he bring in your board? I myself am a huge fan of Kitchen Finks in that position due to the fact that he mostly gains 4 life, like hierarch is much better with therapy, can chump goyf twice, is much easier to cast with rofellos, but has a power less and cant regenerate your board (but I can't say I have ever been in a position to use that)

I've switched the maindeck slot to Finks. I still love Hierarch, but the clincher became that Finks can be cast strictly off green. So my list is currently -1 Hierarch, +1 Finks.

[Brushwagg]

I'm starting to test this list and wanted to get some feed back on it. I'm currently having a little trouble with drawing lands, so I'm going to up the land count after some more testing to see what exactly can be cut.

// Lands
1 Plains
3 Savannah
3 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
5 Forest

// Creatures
1 Loxodon Hierarch
1 Progenitus
2 Flametongue Kavu
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Anger
1 Genesis
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1 Eternal Witness
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Masticore
1 Magus of the Moon

// Spells
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Path to Exile
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Natural Order

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Loaming Shaman
SB: 3 Choke
SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Empyrial Archangel
SB: 2 Pyroblast

Wild Nacatl: More often then not comes down a 2/2 and become a 3/3 the next. Great turn 1 play can be Survivaled for really easy.

Flametongue Kavu: With Zoo and tribal decks becoming popular I feel FTK can make a come back. FTK can kill everything in Zoo (except Goyf and that depends on what is in the yard), tribal lords, and etc...

Loxodon Hierarch: I see the debate going on about him and Finks. I haven't tested Finks yet.

P2E: This could be STP.

Top: I might cut this down to 2. I seem to draw this and Natural Oreder like it's my job. I see both of them alot, like almost every game.

[hungryboi]

You should cut the masticore and a wild nactl for 2 more lands. Masticore is too slow in these days. Wild Nactl are fast, but 3 should be enough if you really prefer them. I honestly don't have any room for them though. You're not playing discard? How do you protect yourself from counters and discard?

[beastman]

Your only playing 18 lands.... Wow, the least I would run would be 21. Usually 22 and birds.
Cut the nacatls entirely for more land. Path is much better as swords in this deck because you really shouldn't care about their life total, and giving them a land can be very detrimental for this deck.

[Guy I Don't Know]

i think your deck could get away with 21 to 22 lands. I am very surprised you play only 1 eternal witness. One ftk is acceptable but i think the second could be better. changes i could see are :
-1 FTK
-1 Masticore
-1 Top
+3 Lands

and i personally like intrepid hero instead of FTK but thats meta dependent.

The other changes i could see happening is getting rid of the last two tops for two more witnesses... I think that E wit is very good.


Also, I like the Nacatl's, I play them too!

[Brushwagg]

Thanks for the suggetions.

I was thinking of cutting:
-1 Pridemage
-1 Masticore
-1 Top

@Wild Nacatl: I'm keeping them for now. They add a good explosiveness to the deck and only cost G.


You're not playing discard? How do you protect yourself from counters and discard?

Still testing out my options here. Counters are always a pain in the ass. But right now I'm not seeing a ton of blue. At a larger tournament I'd probably up the Pyroblasts.

As far as discard I'm not really worried about it yet. I haven't seen anyone playing it in a while.

[beastman]

Again, discard in any normal metagame is the main thing this deck relies on. It's really not very good without discard.

[Guy I Don't Know]

do you ever take out discard against certain matchups?

[beastman]

Against random jank in local tournies, I sometimes side out therapies. But usually, I bring in more, because I play 2 or 3 duress in the board. It is just so damn strong.

[Tacosnape]

If you're going to run RGW, run Aether Vial. If you can't assist Survival with discard, the best solution is to just run more broken game-winning permanents. And kick your Witness count up to four. Witness recursion helps make up for the fact that you can't knock counters out of their hand with discard, and Vial and Witness is ridiculous.

And make Path = STP.

Alternately, get Bayous and copy my list.:)

[Guy I Don't Know]

I'm open to critique's. I am in a transition phase. Basically it is a standard Black list but sub in aether vial ajani and nacatl for bop thoughtseize and cabal therapy.

Maindeck

4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
4 Taiga
4 Savannah
1 Plateau
2 Bayou

4 Aether Vial
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Eternal Witness
2 Kitchen Finks
3 Ajani Vengeant
1 Shriekmaw
1 Big Game Hunter
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Faerie Macabre
2 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Anger
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1 Genesis
1 Acidic Slime
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Masticore

Sideboard
1 Ingot Chewer
1 Wispmare
3 Krosan Grip
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Kitchen Finks
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Orim's Chant

[Brushwagg]

Current List

// Lands
1 Plains
4 Savannah
3 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
7 Forest

// Creatures
1 Progenitus
2 Flametongue Kavu
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Anger
1 Genesis
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1 Eternal Witness
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Ranger of Eos

// Spells
4 Survival of the Fittest
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Natural Order
4 Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Loaming Shaman
SB: 3 Choke
SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Empyrial Archangel
SB: 2 Pyroblast


And kick your Witness count up to four. Witness recursion helps make up for the fact that you can't knock counters out of their hand with discard, and Vial and Witness is ridiculous.

I have been thinking of putting vial in. I played with in Survival a while back and liked it.

@Witness: At the most I would put it to 2. Getting stuff back is good, but as an attacker Witness sucks.


And make Path = STP.

Why do I want to give my opponent life? Path fits the style of deck I want better then STP. Can you explain this?


Alternately, get Bayous and copy my list.:)

Umm. NO, just NO.


@Guy I Don't Know: Interesting list. I don't sgree with the 2x Squee. There has got to be something better for that slot. 1 Squee is fine. Squee is pretty much a blank with out Survival.

I would also get some removal into the MD. Masticore isn't going to do the job. I just cut it from my list because everything I want to kill with it has an ass of 3 or higher.

How has Slime been for you? At CC 5 seems to be a bit high for what it does.

[Zach Tartell]

I still have no idea why you'd want not only one, but two FTKs. Seriously - I cannot think of any reason outside of the tribal match that they're worth it.

[Brushwagg]

I still have no idea why you'd want not only one, but two FTKs. Seriously - I cannot think of any reason outside of the tribal match that they're worth it.

Have you been to a tournament as of late? Everything is Zoo, Elves, and Merfolk. Hell even the locals. The last one I was at there were 3 Zoo, 2 Elf Survival.

[Guy I Don't Know]

The only reason that I have 2 squee is that i don't know what else i want and having a squee with an aether vial is fun because it is like a maze of ith, also makes for a more explosive play when you have only one creature and play survival with say 5 lands. You can go play survival discard crit-->squee-->squee-->anger. Then next turn you can play rofellos and do a lot.

Masticore is in there because there are a lot elspeth in wonderland decks and he is good at getting rid of those tokens made from elspeth and decree. He is marginal and could be cut.

I agree with Path. You are playing an aggro deck and unless you use path on turn 1 or maybe 2 then it is irrelevant. There are few 4 mana spells people play compared to other formats.

Slime is very good against counter top and is decent verse a few other decks. It can blow up ruins in addition to troublesome art/enchantments and can block and trade with anything.

Looking at your list brushwagg, it seems similar but you are playing natural order over ajani. I wonder which one is better. I think I like natural order if it resolves but if they counter it, it seems like a beating. How does it play versus counters?

[beastman]

Swords is so much better in this deck. giving your opponent life really should'nt matter if you are playing the deck properly. Giving them a land can allow them to do more stuff against you.

[chokin]

Slime is very good against counter top and is decent verse a few other decks. It can blow up ruins in addition to troublesome art/enchantments and can block and trade with anything.
Slime is pretty awesome. I had a deck like Brush's played against me and it+Woodfall Primus was totally nuts. Primus has synergy with NO and Therapy just like Finks. Primus also nails CB (although he costs a lot).



Looking at your list brushwagg, it seems similar but you are playing natural order over ajani. I wonder which one is better. I think I like natural order if it resolves but if they counter it, it seems like a beating. How does it play versus counters?

If they counter NO, Witness it. If they counter Witness, Genesis and try again. Or Therapy them. They'll run out of gas unless they have graveyard removal.

EDIT: Didn't see Brush's lack of black, so skip the part about Therapy. I run black and Therapy.

[Brushwagg]

Swords is so much better in this deck. giving your opponent life really should'nt matter if you are playing the deck properly. Giving them a land can allow them to do more stuff against you.

So I give them life to buy them more time to play stuff aganist me? In playtesting the extra land hasn't been a problem at all.

Look I'm not knocking STP. I run it in other decks, I just feel it doesn't fit this deck.



I think I like natural order if it resolves but if they counter it, it seems like a beating. How does it play versus counters?

I love dropping Progenitus. As far as if it gets countered your out a birds or a Wild Nacatl. But in my playtesting so far most of the control decks are worried about the early beats and Survivals. This can lead to them not having an answer for the NO.

[beastman]

So I give them life to buy them more time to play stuff aganist me? In playtesting the extra land hasn't been a problem at all.

Look I'm not knocking STP. I run it in other decks, I just feel it doesn't fit this deck.


I understand where you're coming from, but if you are trying to stabilize, giving them life is much better than giving them an extra land. Once you have stabilized, your opponents life total shouldn't matter at all as you are going to either have progs out, which ends the game, or you are going to be dropping a goyf or 2 every turn. Neither of these scenarios really careabout the other guys life. While giving them a land can allow them to have more resources to play their answers out. It's a small difference, but overall, through alot of my own personal testing, I've just found that swords is the better card more consistently.

[true story]

Giving most Legacy decks help(extra land) is really a bad idea. I understand that some decks like "Zoo" run path because they can't afford to give up extra life. But if you're running Survival, playing that dumb Natural Order combo you should prolly be playing Swords. I know 99% of the time someone Paths my dude I very happy to get the extra land.

[luma]

Hi there, I'm planning on playing Survival in an upcoming tournament here, but because I don't have many good decks to test against, and MWS is lately giving nothing but SPL:s, I wanted to ask about the deck's matchups, as there's no real primer around (at least, didn't find anything in the latest 20 pages or so).

So, what are Survival's good and bad matchups? What should I concentrate on to win the bad matchups? Of course, finding and resolving a Survival is critical, but what else is there?

What hands to mulligan and what to keep? For instance, is a hand of three lands, Bird, Goyf, Witness and Seize a keeper or not? Should I always mulligan into Survival or can I just try to aggro my opponent out with an early Tarmogoyf?

Thanks,
luma

[parallax]

A good build of Survival should be able to win without the namesake card. For example, the hand you posted is very good. Turn 1 Birds. Turn 2 Thoughtseize, Goyf. Turn 3 Witness, Thoughtseize. Goyf will be at least 3/4 (fetchland, Thoughtseize, opponent's discard).

I don't know about specific match-ups. It probably depends on your build. The lists I ran always did well against slow control decks and goblins. Combo is generally your worst. Threshold match-ups tend to vary a lot.

Is there any consensus on Natural Order? It seems like a great tool for this archtype. Being able to put the opponent on a two turn clock (without Survival even) seems really strong.

[true story]

Combo and Ichorid are my toughest matchups. Zoo and Landstill are tough as well but with a little luck winnable. Unless it's a shitty deck with a dumbass running it... Other than that a well tuned well played Survival deck should be able to handle most of the field.

[beastman]

I'm not sure how anyone can find any form of Threshold remotely challenging when playing this deck. Threshold is your best match, and I have never had any trouble unless its canadian, and they get the god hand, and you have an easily disruptable hand.

[parallax]

I suspect Threshold is a good match-up, but my testing is too outdated to know for sure. Last time I played Legacy seriously, I was frustrated that Flametongue Kavu can't kill Nimble Mongoose. I remember the testing being very inconsistent. Some days I would beat Thresh all day long. Others I could only go 30-70. Tarmogoyf probably shifts things heavily in our favor. I used to have to trade 4-mana Baloths for 2-mana Werebears.

I still think sometimes Threshold will just counter your Survival and Swords your 'goyf and just win before you can stick another threat.

[beastman]

I suspect Threshold is a good match-up, but my testing is too outdated to know for sure. Last time I played Legacy seriously, I was frustrated that Flametongue Kavu can't kill Nimble Mongoose. I remember the testing being very inconsistent. Some days I would beat Thresh all day long. Others I could only go 30-70. Tarmogoyf probably shifts things heavily in our favor. I used to have to trade 4-mana Baloths for 2-mana Werebears.

I still think sometimes Threshold will just counter your Survival and Swords your 'goyf and just win before you can stick another threat.

If your last testing was was before tarmagoyf was around, I would seriously suggest reading this thread all the way through.

[Brushwagg]

So I caved and put STP in for Path.

@Ranger of Eos: Has anyone else tried this guy out? I'm totally liking him so far in testing.

[beastman]

So I caved and put STP in for Path.

@Ranger of Eos: Has anyone else tried this guy out? I'm totally liking him so far in testing.

Told ya :tongue:

[hungryboi]

I was wondering. What makes Ranger so great in survival? I understand that it can pitch you birds and ranger. It can gain you more creatures to pitch to survival. Is it really necessary? 4 Mana is a lot. What matchups does ranger help with? Not doubting the card (I haven't tested) but I was wondering.

[Brushwagg]

I was wondering. What makes Ranger so great in survival? I understand that it can pitch you birds and ranger. It can gain you more creatures to pitch to survival. Is it really necessary? 4 Mana is a lot. What matchups does ranger help with? Not doubting the card (I haven't tested) but I was wondering.

Not for more stuff to pitch to Survival but gets me Wild Nacatls or Quirion Ranger to either add to the attack or keep Rofellos going. It's not some thing I go right for all the time, but it's helpful to find 3 creatures instead of 1.

[true story]

So I caved and put STP in for Path.

It's the right call. You should be able to smash enough face that the life gain won't matter much.

I figured out who you are by the way, Nat right? Well I read back a few pages and noticed you were saying something about maybe running a second witness. I run 3 and would play a 4th if I could find room. Getting back Swords, Survivals, Goyfs, and in my deck Therapy and Thoughseize is a great way to win the game. Witness is so good.

[Sinkhole]

Hi guys I`m very intersted in playing the Survival Archetype and I
thought about running a Gbw Rockish Survival, with a smaller Toolbox.
So you are not so adicted on getting Survival down. I haven`t many
time these days, so it`s untested, but it would be nice to getting
some feedback on the list and idea:

Maindeck:

4 Birds of Paradise
3 Eternal Witness
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Big Game Hunter
1 Shriekmaw
1 Genesis
1 Squee Goblin Nabob

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Kitchen Finks
2 Doran, the Siege Tower

4 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Theraphy
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Survival of the Fittest

4 Bayou
3 Savannah
4 Windswepth Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
5 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plain

Sideboard:

4 Krosan Grip
4 Choke
3 Gaddock Teeg
4 Some Gravehate: Leyline/Crypt/Faerie Macabre I`m not sure


Thanks for answers and sorry for my bad English!

[AngryTroll]

Maindeck:

3 Eternal Witness
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Big Game Hunter
1 Shriekmaw
1 Genesis
1 Squee Goblin Nabob

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Kitchen Finks
2 Doran, the Siege Tower

4 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Theraphy
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Survival of the Fittest

4 Bayou
3 Savannah
4 Windswepth Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
5 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plain

Sideboard:

4 Krosan Grip
4 Choke
3 Gaddock Teeg
4 Some Gravehate: Leyline/Crypt/Faerie Macabre I`m not sure


Thanks for answers and sorry for my bad English!

That looks like a very solid list. I like the high land count, the three Witnesses, and the small number of dead draws. Pridemage is extremely solid; I'd probably cut Kitchen Finks #4 for Pridemage #2, and maybe even Finks #3 for Pridemage #3.

The only thing I don't like in your list is the absence of Birds of Paradise. On the one hand, you have Thoughtseizes and Therapies for one drops, but on the other hand, Birds makes your turn two plays a lot stronger. It makes your Goyf and Survival Daze proof, and it lets you activate Survival the first turn you drop it.

The list is tight...there's not a ton of room to cram in Birds. The list I'm running has one fewer land, no Dorans, and more Pridemages main. Looks solid, though.

[Sinkhole]

Yes on Birds you`re right they`re still in the Deck, i had forgotten it
in the above list, which have only 56 cards :tongue:. It`s edited now!
Survival is so mana hungry, so birds are really needed. Cutting a Fink for
a Pridemage seems, making sense, but under 3 Finks i wouldn`t go. I think
3 artifact/enchantment hates are the right number, even with 4 Grips in the board.

[hungryboi]

Hi guys I`m very intersted in playing the Survival Archetype and I
thought about running a Gbw Rockish Survival, with a smaller Toolbox.
So you are not so adicted on getting Survival down. I haven`t many
time these days, so it`s untested, but it would be nice to getting
some feedback on the list and idea:

Maindeck:

4 Birds of Paradise
3 Eternal Witness
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Big Game Hunter
1 Shriekmaw
1 Genesis
1 Squee Goblin Nabob

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Kitchen Finks
2 Doran, the Siege Tower

4 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Theraphy
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Survival of the Fittest

4 Bayou
3 Savannah
4 Windswepth Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
5 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plain

Sideboard:

4 Krosan Grip
4 Choke
3 Gaddock Teeg
4 Some Gravehate: Leyline/Crypt/Faerie Macabre I`m not sure


Thanks for answers and sorry for my bad English!


So many finks. What does Finks help with besides the zoo and burn matchup? I see you'd probably side out finks most of the time against most decks.

[Sinkhole]

Hmm yes 3 Finks seems to be much, but I will play the deck in my
local meta, where Zoo, Goblin and Goyfsligh seeing lot of play.

[hungryboi]

I have been thinking about the zoo, goblin, and folk matchup. Most times, we run 4 plagues in the side against tribal. What do you guys think about jitte as a replacement of plagues in the side to combat not only tribal but aggro? I know that anytime you get either 2 jittes or 2 plagues, it is GG against tribal (I know jitte is legendary, but tribal can often destroy 1). While 1 jitte is more versatile than 1 plague in hand. The only matchup I see plague standing out is against enchantress. While Jitte stands out against any form of aggro/burn as well as tribal. Jitte can kill opposing jitte as well. Makes us less reliant on graveyard as well

[beastman]

Jitte runs much better in a more aggressive deck. Plague does exactly what this deck needs it to do. Slowing the beats down and giving you time to stabilize. Jitte needs to much mana every turn, and that makes it much harder to stabilize.

[hungryboi]

Just tested Jitte tonight extensively against zoo and Mono red gobs. Jitte is a house against zoo (big threat, kills opposing jitte). Against Gobos, it was effective as plague. Situations where I lost with Jitte wouldn't have mattered if jitte was a plague. Situations when I won with Jitte, woulda had the same outcome w/ plague instead.

[Al-ucard]

Maybe its true and Jitte is better than Engineered plague or pernicious deed against agro/tribal decks...

Edit: So, is better this last version than the one with Natural Order-Progenitus?

[hungryboi]

Progenitus does nothing for you in terms of establishing control. It is an aggro card/combo when Survival decks play the role of control in most matchups. VS fast aggro, it's too slow. Jitte and Plague on the other hand, establish board control.

[hungryboi]

Just placed 8th today at a 36 man tournament piloting Survival.

1st game: VS UGR Countertop (draw)

2nd game: VS Landstill (Win 2-0)

3rd game: MonoBlack Rack (Loss 1-2)

4th game: Dredge (Win 2-1)

5th game: Dredge (Win 2-0)

6th game: Affinity (Win 2-1) Should have been 2-0 but I got 1 round taken off for getting to my table 3 minutes late.

Cut to top 8

7th game: BW Landstill (Loss 1-2)

All in all, it was a good day. I felt bad though since my GF was with me the whole 8 hour tournament.

I didn't get to face any aggro all day, yet there were a couple zoo's, dragon stompy, elves, goblins, and etc.

[TOGITwill]

Mind sharing your particular way of handling Ichorid pre/post-board? I played in Eli's Power Tournament on Saturday and played dredge 3 different times. I lost twice.

[beastman]

Faerie macabre recursion is savage. I've beaten parcher about 8 times with that one card.

[hungryboi]

If I would have known that I would have ran into so many decks that run off the graveyard, I would have played Macabre (bad move on my part). Beating Ichorid had a lot to do with 2 mainboard deeds and 4 swords. Postboard, 4 leyline come in as well as 2 jitte. Next tournament I will be sure to run some mainboard graveyard hate. I'll try to type up decklist later today.

[beastman]

I made top 8 of a 28 man tournament yesterday. The tournament was fun, but I don't feel like writing a report because I was playing terribly and nothing interesting really happened, except for my game 3 against a pox deck where I made the most epic comeback ever. My losses were to Alix hatfield playing zoo, and Dan signorini playing team america in the top 8. You guys better step your game up so we can put survival back in the DTB forum where it rightfully belongs.

[hungryboi]

Mind sharing your particular way of handling Ichorid pre/post-board? I played in Eli's Power Tournament on Saturday and played dredge 3 different times. I lost twice.


Here's my list:

Main Deck
7 Forest
4 Bayou
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Savannah
2 Taiga
2 Windswept Heath

4 Survival Of The Fittest
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords To Plowshares
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Eternal Witness
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Genesis
1 Anger
1 Loxodon Hierarch
1 Flametongue Kavu
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Shriekmaw
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1 Big Game Hunter
qty: 61

Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Engineered Plague
3 Krosan Grip
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Magus of the Moon
qty: 15

My side was really geared towards aggro yet I didn't face a single aggro deck the entire tournament. All in all, I'm very happy with this deck since it won me 4x Natural Orders which I will put in one of my jank decks. I need to make room for that 1 macabre but don't know what to cut :(.

[Pastorofmuppets]

4 survival of the fittest
4 cabal therapy/duress/thoughtseize
4 seething song

4 demigod of revenge
4 birds of paradise
4 wall of blossoms
4 elvish visionary
4 wall of roots
1 squee
1 eternal witness
1 genesis
1 thrull surgeon

4 wooded foothills
4 bloodstained mire
4 bayou
4 taiga
4 forest
1 swamp
1 mountain

Not mine, posted by Slaughtercult on TCGplayer. What do you guys think of Demigod Survival? Personally I think Spellbreaker Behemoth and Tinder Wall but let's hear it.

[beastman]

I've toyed around with demigod survival. It can work, in the right metagame, but I would never play seething song, demigod is best suited as a 4 of toolbox to be fit in a normal RGBSA shell.

[Parcher]

Faerie macabre recursion is savage. I've beaten parcher about 8 times with that one card.

Lies. Divide that by four. Maybe. Unless you include eight-mans in Centreville, you loser.

[hungryboi]

4 survival of the fittest
4 cabal therapy/duress/thoughtseize
4 seething song

4 demigod of revenge
4 birds of paradise
4 wall of blossoms
4 elvish visionary
4 wall of roots
1 squee
1 eternal witness
1 genesis
1 thrull surgeon

4 wooded foothills
4 bloodstained mire
4 bayou
4 taiga
4 forest
1 swamp
1 mountain

Not mine, posted by Slaughtercult on TCGplayer. What do you guys think of Demigod Survival? Personally I think Spellbreaker Behemoth and Tinder Wall but let's hear it.

Deck looks interesting, but it relies wayyy too much on Survival and the graveyard. Without Survival, swords and creature removal will take out your demigods 1 at a time. The deck has no removal either which can prove to be problematic (Stacks and Enchantress will do damage to you). If they side in graveyard hate, then your demigods are basically gone.

[Brushwagg]

OK so I ran my build today in a small tournament. Ranger of Eos was pretty nuts everytime and FTK was also good (2 Zoo, 1 Survival elves). 0.

@Demigod List:Umm.. whats the secondary plan for the deck, beside bending over and taking it like man?

[beastman]

Foil Judge Promo Survivals Are Coming Out Bitches!!!1!!1!!!!

[Pastorofmuppets]

@Demigod List:Umm.. whats the secondary plan for the deck, beside bending over and taking it like man?

I haven't even tested with it yet, it's not even my list. I was wondering if you guys thought it'd be worth my time to tweak around with it and see what I can make based off of that list as a sort of foundation.

[AngryTroll]

Foil Judge Promo Survivals Are Coming Out Bitches!!!1!!1!!!!

Source? Oh, man, as a Judge Foil? Man, I can't afford a set of those!

[Brushwagg]

Source? Oh, man, as a Judge Foil? Man, I can't afford a set of those!


Eli. I so want a play set.

[Muela]

Hi everyone,

I would like to show you a deck list in order to hear the thoughts from more experienced survival players :)



--- GR Survi Moon ---
Creatures [30]
3x Birds of paradise
2x Llanowar elves.
3x Eternal witness
3x Tarmogoyf

1x Genesis
1x Anger
1x Squee, goblin nabob

1x Quirion ranger
1x Rofellos, llanowar emissary
1x Chameleon colossus

3x Flametongue Kavu
1x Spitebellows

2x Bloodbraid Elf
1x Stingcourger
2x kitchen finks
1x Shivan wurm
1x Spore frog
1x Viridian zealot
1x Magus of the moon

Enchantments [7]
4x Survival of the fittest
3x Blood Moon

Artifacts [4]
4x Aether vial

Lands [19]
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Windswepth heath
3x Taiga
1x mountain
7x Forest

Sideboard
2x red elemental blast
3x Umezawa’s jitte
3x Tormod’s crypt
3x thorn of amethyst
2x krosan grip
1x Ancient grudge
1x Goblin sharpshooter


This deck was designed by a cataloian team (team-walk) and an article about it can be found in [1] (it's in Spanish).


So, apart from the SB which is meta-dependant, what do you think about it?

I've been testing it with -1 kitchen finks -1 chamaleon +1 tarmogoyf +1 masticore and it is really awsome against any aggro and tribal decks, and really good against control and counterbalance decks. The main problem again are those combo decks where we (survival-players) are almost a bye, and well, loam decks with DD and gigant crushers are also a pain :-/


[1] http://team-walk.blogspot.com/2009/07/survi-moon-by-papu.html

[Kesta]

This R/G Survival looks funny, but I think you should have problem with Monored goblin and Burn, as Combo, you can't deal with.

Here the list I'm playing:

// Lands (21)
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bayou
3 Savannah
6 Forest

// Creatures (21)
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Eternal Witness
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Spore Frog
1 Genesis
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Shriekmaw
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Academy Rector
1 Harmonic Sliver
4 Tarmogoyf

// Spells (18)
4 Survival of the Fittest
3 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Enlightened Tutor

// Sideboard (15)
4 Krosan Grip
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Rule of Law
1 Moat
3 Choke
3 Engineered Plague

What do you think about this list? What should be improve? It works well for me, against most of the DTB. The worst MU is ANT, but post side it's quite good I think.

[Brushwagg]

Hi everyone,

I would like to show you a deck list in order to heari the thoughts from more experienced survival players :)



This deck was designed by a cataloian team (team-walk) and an article about it can be found in [1] (it's in Spanish).


So, apart from the SB which is meta-dependant, what do you think about it?

I've been testing it with -1 kitchen finks -1 chamaleon +1 tarmogoyf +1 masticore and it is really awsome against any aggro and tribal decks, and really good against control and counterbalance decks. The main problem again are those combo decks where we (survival-players) are almost a bye, and well, loam decks with DD and gigant crushers are also a pain :-/


[1] http://team-walk.blogspot.com/2009/07/survi-moon-by-papu.html

@Muela: I'm currently playing G/W/r and it's playing fine, however my list is very differt then this one. My list can be found a few pages back. I know you didn't design the list but I feel there is really no need for 4x Bloodmoon effects in the deck, 3 of which you can't Survival for.

@Masticore: I was running him but found him to be not so good anymore. So I cut it all together.

@FTK:I've found to be awesome. But then my meta has filled up with Zoo and alot of tribal decks. If you run into a good amount of Threshold it could become not so good.

@Combo: Well there is always Teeg, Cannonist, and Orim's Chant. I'm thinking about going with Chant over the other 2.

[Muela]

@Kesta It seems not to be any problem at all with burns and RDW, just by keeping on recurring kitchen finks is enough, sometimes even with just 1 played you have the time you need to overrun your oponent. In addition to that post-SB you get the jittes...

@Brushwagg I did see your list and seems fine, although I haven't test it yet, I'm testing with this one, the Tacosnape's and another with BW. I'll give it a try as soon as I'm done with any of those =)

About not being able to survival the blood moons, it's true, but the can hit the board with bloodraids because despite of having only 2 you can get to play them several times by recurring them, and bouncing them and it's really great cascading them. From my point of view, it is harder to deal with the enchantment than dealing with the magus.
One of the threats of the deck are the moon effects, if you depend on survival to get them you end in depending even more on survival.

About the FtK, I've experienced myself not being able to reach some "big" creatures (unsually huge countryside crushers or reliquarys) but it is not the most frequent thing, at least in my meta...

[sdematt]

Why was this moved to developing competitive? This was in DTB...

[hungryboi]

I'm assuming that Survival isn't putting up the tournament results hence not being a DTB.

@Kesta, the deck looks good. Why harmonic over pridemage or wickerbough? I've been struggling with the choice of pridemage, wickerbough, or sliver in the enchantment removal slot.

[DrJones]

The Developing Competitive is the New and Development forum, this one is for decks already tuned up, but that aren't the ones that are making the most Top 8's this month. Because most of the large tournaments this month have been played in Spain, the DtB took briefly the form of the Spanish meta.

Also, it was never Deck to Beat as far as I remember. It has always been "Deck to Watch", which is pretty close.

[Tacosnape]

Been trying out Necroplasm as a 1-of in place of Blitz Hellion in my sideboard. Yes, that Necroplasm. For three reasons.

1. It blows up tokens. There's been far too many Garruks and Elspeths running around for me not to have an answer as of late, and it's also helped a tad against Goblins when I can't get a Plague down. These won't solve the problem immediately quite like Hellion, which tramples through the tokens, eats the Planeswalker, and goes back into your deck for another round of fun, but it will destroy the tokens and free up your other guys to go Planeswalker-munching.

2. It's randomly good against weird boards.

3. When your opponent is yard-hating you, Necroplasm acts like a backup Squee where you just don't get the extra card each turn. Admit it. You've had games where you've had Survival out, but your opponent has cut you off from Squee and/or Genesis and you need threats to get your plan b Witness chain going, or just to grab some serious Tarmogoyfs. Necroplasm can be pitched to Survival and recurred in place of your draw each turn, fetching bullets, Goyfs, or Witnesses.

[Solpugid]

@ Tacosnape

I'm glad to see that some people are still thinking outside the box! That said, couldn't plague spitter be a good/better stand-in for necroplasm? It's a tad slower at getting rid of tokens, but faster at dealing with 1 toughness goblins, and can be used as direct damage to hit a planeswalker hiding behind a non-token creature wall. It's also randomly good against other decks/boards (hits confidant, gets around moat, can help break goyf stalemates (although many other creatures do this too), and prevents tokens from ever taking hold if you drop this preemptively).

It does kill birds and quirion ranger (and witness, but this actually facilitates recursion on occasion), but maybe there's enough good there to overlook that.

[Tacosnape]

Possibly, but Necroplasm's won me several games after having Squee/Genesis Relic'd, Extirpated, Macabred, etc. Plus, I've started running actual Plague in sideboard, so this helps cover this role.

[Kesta]

@Kesta, the deck looks good. Why harmonic over pridemage or wickerbough? I've been struggling with the choice of pridemage, wickerbough, or sliver in the enchantment removal slot.

Harmonic 'coz it costs 3 and stay on table after destoying, better for Recurring Nightmare. Wickerbough elder cost too much and quasali get sac'ed.
I'm not sure if Wickerbough wouldnt be better, I have Deed for early Enchantement and Artifact. I'll test but harmonic is just good for what i need.

[hungryboi]

Just topped 3 today at another sanctioned legacy event this time in orange county (23 man tournament). Check out the tournament report in the tournament report section.

[Kesta]

Just topped 3 today at another sanctioned legacy event this time in orange county (23 man tournament). Check out the tournament report in the tournament report section.

Hi, I just read your report. Congratz for the result.
I love your list but:
-how were the SDT during those maches? it helped? because i tried to use them and found it was not that good. If you can explain... ;-)
-then FTK? did you use it a lot? and was it usefull?

Hope you enjoyed playing this deck. It's sure against combo it's usually lost, but how can we improve that? 4 duress in SB, ethersworn canonist, orim's chant...?

[beastman]

The only times I personally have ever found Kavu to be very useful are against Dark confidant, and zoo. Other than that, I prefer a second shriekmaw.

[hungryboi]

Hi, I just read your report. Congratz for the result.
I love your list but:
-how were the SDT during those maches? it helped? because i tried to use them and found it was not that good. If you can explain... ;-)
-then FTK? did you use it a lot? and was it usefull?

Hope you enjoyed playing this deck. It's sure against combo it's usually lost, but how can we improve that? 4 duress in SB, ethersworn canonist, orim's chant...?

SDT is really good. They make my deck run very smoothly without Survival.

Flametongue has been decent. It is good vs Merfolk and Dragon Stompy. I wouldn't cut him though since he gotten me out of sticky situations.

Storm is really really difficult. Chant would be good if they don't duress you. Teeg and Canonist are both really strong. I prefer Teeg because it's stronger in other match-ups (Planeswalkers and Stax to name a couple). Graveyard hate is also decent so they don't do any ill Gotten Gains.

[crow_mw]

Hi,

I wonder if any of the experienced Survival players would kindly share their thoughts on current state of RG survival builds. Is it viable to any extent or is it strictly inferior to any black or white builds?

At the moment I am running a very old RGSA build with Wishes, Goyfs, FTKs and Baloths. I loved the playstyle of RGSA but with the development of meta and printing of new cards (the last amazing card printed for RGSA seems to be goyf and with ever increasing card power level other decks have gained a lot of goodies since than) made it bad. That was fixed by adding the black splash and the RGB builds in this thread are amazing but for a very prosaic reason of not having access to duals other than Taiga I would like to avoid adding any splash.

Few posts above there is a list of pure RG build by Muela, but Blood Moons or Chameleon colossus make this deck feel very awkward to me. Is it possible to build a more 'classic' RGSA survival build at the time being or there is no choice but to add at least one color splash or at least go the Elf Survival route?

Thanks in advance for replies.

[Nonex]

I don't know if anyone will agree with me, but I don't think Tarmogoyf is the last amazing creature printed for Survival at all. Magus of the Moon, Chameleon Colossus, Spitebellows, Kitchen Finks, Wickerbough Elder, Vithian Renegades, they all are examples of really interesting R/G creatures that can easily find a place in Survival. Even Progenitus has a home in some builds.

Also, I can't understand why all aggro-oriented builds run 4 Tarmogoyf. Survival has access to more mana than most decks thanks to Birds of Paradise, Rofellos and Quirion Ranger, so we can afford some bigger and nastier creatures than them. Why limit ourselves to the standard big guy everyone plays (considering that two of them block each other forever)?

I guess I need you to post an example of a "classic build" because I don't exactly know what you mean.

[Muela]

Hi,

I wonder if any of the experienced Survival players would kindly share their thoughts on current state of RG survival builds. Is it viable to any extent or is it strictly inferior to any black or white builds?

At the moment I am running a very old RGSA build with Wishes, Goyfs, FTKs and Baloths. I loved the playstyle of RGSA but with the development of meta and printing of new cards (the last amazing card printed for RGSA seems to be goyf and with ever increasing card power level other decks have gained a lot of goodies since than) made it bad. That was fixed by adding the black splash and the RGB builds in this thread are amazing but for a very prosaic reason of not having access to duals other than Taiga I would like to avoid adding any splash.

Few posts above there is a list of pure RG build by Muela, but Blood Moons or Chameleon colossus make this deck feel very awkward to me. Is it possible to build a more 'classic' RGSA survival build at the time being or there is no choice but to add at least one color splash or at least go the Elf Survival route?

Thanks in advance for replies.

Hi crow_mw, even though I'm not one of the impresive players you can find here (I practically started with survival decks, and legacy, this 2009) I can share the experience I've gained here. Please, keep in mind that I'm in Madrid, Spain, and my meta could be quite different.

I started with a RBG SA with wishes and it's quite amazing, furthermore with the new spells such as Firespout, Maelstrom Pulse and Banefire (Banefire+rofellos is nuts, and with quirion it's simply absurd). I really like this build, it can turn completely a game with a BW a make a win out of nowhere.
The main problem I've found is that the format is really fast and there are tons of mana denial in the form of wastelands, stifles and fire for birds (those fire/ice are a pain) and a survival deck without mana is really hard to play.

Therefore, by taking out the BW, getting in W and trading some creatures you can get a really, really good deck with an awsome mana curve including StP and great utility creatures (such as qasali pridemange, gaddock teeg, canonist, burrenton forge tender...). Tacosnape's is a really good example of this.

I've also seen some Gwbr lists with Recurring nigthmare and/or pernicious deed. I haven't tested any of them, so I can be of little help in that matter (I would also appreciate some input in those decks :D). I'll have to test them sometime, as well as introducing a couple of SdT as it has been said here.

However, in my meta (and I think Spanish in general terms) tribal decks (gobbs and merfolk mainly) are growing and are really fast. In addition to that, there's quite a lot of non-basic lands hate in the form of wastelands locks (loam and crucible), back to basics...

In that meta, the RG list I posted above really shines. It's really sinergic with so many combos... I didn't realize of all of them until I started to play it... The list gives up almost completely against combo and also loses a lot of the wide-range solutions that you can control with W and B.

So here is the list as I am actually testing in order to play a quite big tournament here in Madrid in a couple of weeks:


--- GR Survi Moon ---
Creatures [30]
3x Birds of paradise
2x Llanowar elves.
3x Eternal witness
4x Tarmogoyf

1x Genesis
1x Anger
1x Squee, goblin nabob

1x Quirion ranger
1x Rofellos, llanowar emissary
1x Masticore

2x Flametongue Kavu
1x Spitebellows
1x Caldera Hellion

2x Bloodbraid Elf
1x Stingcourger
1x kitchen finks
1x Shivan wurm
1x Spore frog
1x Ingot Chewer
1x Magus of the moon

Enchantments [7]
4x Survival of the fittest
3x Blood Moon

Artifacts [4]
4x Aether vial

Lands [19]
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Windswepth heath
4x Taiga
1x mountain
6x Forest

Sideboard
2x red elemental blast
3x Umezawa’s jitte
2x krosan grip
1x Goblin sharpshooter
1x Wickerbough Elder
4x thorn of amethyst
2x ????


I'm testing with the caldera hellion wich seems to behave pretty good against swarm decks, multiple confidants, enchantress and can leave behind a huge body. I've also changed the viridian zealot and I got in the chewer because of all the vials and chalices, and as it has been said in this thread the great recursion with genesis.

I still don't know what to do with those two slots in the SB and even if I should take in SB the thorn of amethyst... I'm also thinking about swapping the finks (deals with 2 blockers, maybe 1 moongose) with spike feeder (easier to recurse and possible counters to goyfs)

Every suggestion is welcomed!

About your doubts:
1.- Chamaleon Colossus is, from my point of view, just a mana-eating-counterbalance-free creature. After some thoughts I decided to replace it with Masticore which can turn around things pretty fast.
2.- Blood moons, and moon effects in general, are sooo good (at least in this meta) that I may even keep them in g2 or g3 vs goblins (and deny them the G or B sources). They really are a big threat to a lot of decks, they may not be ready to deal with so many echantments and they also can be cascaded with bloodraid.

Hope it helped a bit :)

[MattH]

Also, I can't understand why all aggro-oriented builds run 4 Tarmogoyf. Survival has access to more mana than most decks thanks to Birds of Paradise, Rofellos and Quirion Ranger, so we can afford some bigger and nastier creatures than them. Why limit ourselves to the standard big guy everyone plays (considering that two of them block each other forever)?
Because if you have your mana engine, including Rofellos, online, you have Survival online, and it's just win-more at that point. Goyfs are better when you don't have Survival going (and in many ways better even when you do, such as playing 2-3 of them in one turn).

Put simply:
When you haven't got Survival, you don't want big guys.
When you do have Survival, you don't need them.

[Anusien]

Because if you have your mana engine, including Rofellos, online, you have Survival online, and it's just win-more at that point. Goyfs are better when you don't have Survival going (and in many ways better even when you do, such as playing 2-3 of them in one turn).

Put simply:
When you haven't got Survival, you don't want big guys.
When you do have Survival, you don't need them.
There aren't really any larger guys you can go to in order to beat Tarmogoyf (there are a few like Spiritmonger, but not many). So it's easier and more mana efficient to just dig up Tarmogoyfs and then start Bone Shredding or Sowering.

[MattH]

There aren't really any larger guys you can go to in order to beat Tarmogoyf (there are a few like Spiritmonger, but not many). So it's easier and more mana efficient to just dig up Tarmogoyfs and then start Bone Shredding or Sowering.
That too. The question presupposed the existence of appropriately-sized dudes.

[hungryboi]

I don't know if anyone will agree with me, but I don't think Tarmogoyf is the last amazing creature printed for Survival at all. Magus of the Moon, Chameleon Colossus, Spitebellows, Kitchen Finks, Wickerbough Elder, Vithian Renegades, they all are examples of really interesting R/G creatures that can easily find a place in Survival. Even Progenitus has a home in some builds.

Also, I can't understand why all aggro-oriented builds run 4 Tarmogoyf. Survival has access to more mana than most decks thanks to Birds of Paradise, Rofellos and Quirion Ranger, so we can afford some bigger and nastier creatures than them. Why limit ourselves to the standard big guy everyone plays (considering that two of them block each other forever)?

I guess I need you to post an example of a "classic build" because I don't exactly know what you mean.

I can agree with this somewhat. I am now playing Tarmogoyf as a 3 of since I do think they are slightly overrated. There hasn't been a time where I needed all 4 Goyfs in my deck to win. However, there has been times when I had a early Goyf in hand and nothing in graveyards (it's frustrating) only to wish it were something else. I had to cut 1 to put in more utility. I feel that survival can run heavily on utility as long as it a good amount of non-utility cards as well (swords, deeds, tops, witnesses). In general, these are the cards you want to see when your trying to stall to draw into survival. These cards will also help you win games without survival.

[beastman]

The thing I am noticing more and more here, is that people are talking about how good a card is based on the card survival. The point of most creatures in this deck, is to work with survival and create advantage. The problem I have with everyone's logic is that, when you have an active survival, any moron can win. What separates the men from the boys with this deck, is how well you function, and handle difficult situations without your namesake card.
I don't mean to toot my own horn here, but I pride myself on my ability to play the deck without survival out. First off, you must play 4 tarmagoyfs. So the fuck what if every other deck plays them? Without survival, it's the best card you can draw, and he is integral to being able to win.

[hungryboi]

Tarmogoyf is the best card you can draw asides from Survival only conditionally. Although I understand that Goyf is very necessary (I keep 3) I also understand that it's hated out very easily. To be honest, with a diverse meta in Legacy, Survival needs to have a heavy toolbox in order to do well. I hate the fact that I we have to have a large toolbox (including suboptimal cards like wickerbough, flametongue, and macabre) but it's the sad truth. Our job as SA players is to focus on trimming the fat and streamlining our decks to function in any meta with or without survival. This is why Sensei's Divining Top works so well. It's able to smooth out our draws without Survival (drawing less toolbox when you don't have survival out) while allowing us to play without our graveyard. In early game in aggro Meta, I like to see SDT more than Survival just because Survival is so mana dependent. It's not until I establish my Mana base is when I really want to see Survival.

[beastman]

Everything you said points to the fact that you should be playing 4 goyf. Ok, I'll admit he is very easy to kill for a lot of decks, but he can simply win the game on his own, and he is the only card in the deck that is capable of that.

[Brushwagg]

Everything you said points to the fact that you should be playing 4 goyf. Ok, I'll admit he is very easy to kill for a lot of decks, but he can simply win the game on his own, and he is the only card in the deck that is capable of that.

Unless your running Progenitus also.

But I have to agree with you that 4x Goyf should be in the deck. I will admit though that I have started Survival changes with a Goyf, but when it comes to cheap fat dudes Goyf gets it done.


I hate the fact that I we have to have a large toolbox

What to do you mean by large? Are you including the Survival "package" as the "toolbox" creatures? By package I mean Squee, Anger, Genesis, Roffy etc.. , then you might be running the wrong deck.

[hungryboi]

Everything you said points to the fact that you should be playing 4 goyf. Ok, I'll admit he is very easy to kill for a lot of decks, but he can simply win the game on his own, and he is the only card in the deck that is capable of that.

The problem is that the Meta is so spread that a large toolbox is needed (creatures such as macabre, wickerbough, flametongue, BGH). I know a lot of people will disagree with me when I say that I am willing to cut 1x Tarmogoyf for an additional toolbox card. Goyf is a good card and that's why I have 3 in my deck, however, the diverse meta calls for a diverse toolbox. That means that if 1x Goyf has to be cut, then so be it. It's not an easy decision, but it was either 1x goyf, wickerbough, pridemage, Macabre, or flametongue.

[zalachan]

Im always happy to see some activity in this thread, keep it up!

Playing 4 Goyfs seems a must to me. Im playing 4color list and i must say that i really want to see all the goyfs and witnesses in any given game without survival. They are so good at stalling the game until you find survival.

As far as SDT goes.. i know its good, but i still havent tried it, and i probably wont. The problem is, its not a creature and there are other noncreature cards i would rather squeeze in (jitte, vial). It ties your mana the same way as survival does, but it doesnt win the game. However, it does prevent drawing lands in a row and finding a creature to survival. I would play 2 maybe, but i wouldnt cut any of the goyfen/witnesses/discard/STP, so i guess i just cant cut out anything at the moment:smile:
What about Sylvan Library? Would you run it?

@hungryboi- i would try to squeeze those creatures in SB, its no good nerfing MD for some random matchups, Swords seem to be so much better than BGH main. I think his hardcost is a bit too black.
Macabre/FTK is for SB for some graveyard/fish hate. If you get any graveyard dependant deck that isnt ichorid (which is kinda bad MU anyway) first game, just try to race them and then board in 2-3 macabres i guess.

[Muela]

I completely agree, well 90% =), with zalachan.

It seems to me, that there's a must-be pack composed by:

4x Birds of Paradise
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Eternal Witness (3 as minimum)
1x Squee
6x Disrupt effects (thoughtseizes and therapies, 6 minimum)

After that, a you-really-want-to-have:

1x Anger
1x Rofellos
1x Genesis
1x Shriekmaw
1x Ingot Chewer (but this is current meta dependent)

Besides, you have to choose the strategy it better adapts to your meta, you like most, you thinks it suits better to your play style, whatever...

I'm also giving some thoughts about the sylvan library on its side it has that doesn't eat your mana, it may act as a shield for survival (getting some hate from it); but on the other hand, SDT allows to fetch creatures (from top) at instant speed and create good situations with no hand. I think I should give it a try, I'll try to find it some space.

However, I disagree with zalachan about MD a macabre/loaming shaman... you can do really good tricks in tarmo-wars (by getting both killed, and you'll recover yours), playing with threshold, annulling volrath's, eternal witnesses...

Has anyone tested with sylvan?

[hungryboi]

For Sylvan Library, it may not be too good at least in my deck since it doesn't dodge my own deed. It's an interesting idea and should be tested. As for the Goyf, I'll figure something to take something out for him.

[Thor]

I went 5-1-1 and lost in the top 4 in a 31 person tourny yesterday with the GBwr list. I may post a tourny report later today.

[Tacosnape]

Just for shits and giggles, I'm testing a list with Bloodghast in it, given that the card has synergy with Survival, Cabal Therapy, -and- Quirion Ranger. The double black has made playing him a little tricky, and it's even trickier finding slots, but at the moment this is what I'm testing:

3 Verdant Marsh
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Bayou
3 Savannah
2 Taiga
3 Forest

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize

4 Birds of Paradise
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Eternal Witness
3 Bloodghast
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Genesis
1 Anger
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Shriekmaw

[hungryboi]

Bloodghast is interesting. I would test it but I currently have no time. Taco, what's the reasoning to include pridemage over wickerbough? Do you not have heavy counter/top and dragon stompy in your meta?