[Deck] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

[Ralf]

Any thoughts on Diffusion Sliver from M15? Not quite Hexproof Sliver (and unfortunately doesn't work against Abrupt Decay), but it does a pretty reasonable impersonation.

Diffusion Sliver is, in my opinion, only for "dropping" the crystallin one (although less powerful) and maybe getting rid of "white" mana (and use cavern of souls to keep 12 lords).
White is, per definition, a control colour which is antisynergic with the sliver "aggro" concept.
I know where some of you might come from speaking of UWR Delver for example (putting up some good results), but you have to agree that "swords to plowshare" is not what one can call pretty synergic with our deck...

So, why not starting to think of a new splash as a BG/X sliver deck (Red is a serious contender as could be Black)

1) RED gives you access to direct damage (bolt etc...) and thus "reach" at the end + some "nasty hasty" sliver -> thus, a new aggro strategy trying to win a turn before what white has to offer = Canadian Sliver.

2) BLACK gives you access to discard, cheap anti-crit (decay, dismember, disfigure etc...) and other "good stuff" sliver (syphon sliver, hibernation sliver) -> another new aggro strategy trying to steal "back breaking" cards against us from opponent's hands. = BUG Sliver

/discuss.

[JankMaster]

For fun today I decided to buy a bunch of slivers and play meathooks in the 4:30 modo daily. First time ever playing the deck ended up going 3-1 beating miracles, rug delver, TES, and losing to the eventual winner playing grixis reanimator.

[M+1]

Any thoughts on Diffusion Sliver from M15? Not quite Hexproof Sliver (and unfortunately doesn't work against Abrupt Decay), but it does a pretty reasonable impersonation.

It is very bad.

- Useless against the best and most played spot removal spell in the format, Abrubt Decay.
- Useless late game.
- Is 1/1 for two mana.
- Cannot protect a sliver by being vialed in response to removal.

[JPoJohnson]

You still want white for the Swords to Plowshares in the current meta though. I think that the deck didn't get any new toys in this go-round of slivers (at least in the legacy department, my Modern/Standard/Casual decks all got new toys haha).

[Thor Hammer]

Shroud, flying and lords (keep it simple) + Brainstorm and Aether Vial for consistency and stability + Path to Exile (gaining your opponents life with StP does not work well with this deck) + Spell Pierce to protect against board whipers + a versatile sideboard that has 2 CMC hate bears to take advantage of Aether Vial along with effective removal (Detention Sphere is great because you can whipe out your opponents creatures without affecting your own) = The best sliver build on Earth.

Mainboard:
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver
4 Phantasmal Image

4 Brainstorm
4 Spell Pierce
4 Path to Exile

4 Aether Vial

4 Mutavault
3 Misty Rainfroest
3 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept Heath
3 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains

Sideboard:
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Meddling Mage
4 Disenchant
4 Detention Sphere

CMC:
1 = 20
2 = 20

Mana Symbols:
Blue = 20
White = 12
Green = 8

[JPoJohnson]

Not a fan of Daze/Force of Will?

[lithiux]

A 16 card sideboard is pretty sick new tech

[Thor Hammer]

Not a fan of Daze/Force of Will?

I had them in my sliver deck for a while, but it always felt awkward pitching a sliver for FoW. I've found that getting as many slivers out as fast as possible is the best strategy for this deck, and both Daze and FoW slow that process down.

[PhyrexianPossum]

Simple and streamlined.


//Artifact (4)
4 Æther Vial

//Creature (36)
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver
4 Manaweft Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Phantasmal Image
4 Plated Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

//Land (20)
4 Ancient Ziggurat
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Mana Confluence
4 Mutavault
4 Sliver Hive

SB: 3 Golgari Charm
SB: 4 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 4 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 4 Pithing Needle

[keys]

I like it, but your sideboard needs work. You realistically don't have any way to cast Golgari Charm without Manaweft or 2 Mana Confluence. Is Manaweft even necessary? I feel like the deck needs more card draw... I'd say Standstill but you might have trouble casting that as well. Slivers really need a version of Goblin Ringleader.

SB:
4 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Mindbreak Trap
3 Harmonic Sliver

Maybe some number of Darkheart Sliver or Mindwhip Sliver if you expect Burn or Combo, respectively.

[JediCheese]

Welp, I've been playing the deck lately after picking up a playset of Cavern of Souls and Phantasmal Image. Usually we get ~10-15 players (not quite 16 but easily over 10).

Last week I tried UWGb with a creature tutor package sideboard and a singleton Living Wish. It went poorly and I went 1-3. I had a poor sideboard plan, was running 19 lands which was too few, and was misplaying a ton. I won't go much into that tournament, other than to say it was a total cluster.

This week I went UWG. I went 2-2 yet still had flaws in the deck (posted below) and I definitely could have played better at several points. Round 1 lost vs Reanimator (I think I could have won game 3 had I played better). Round 2 I won vs Dark Depths. Round 3 I won vs RUG Delver. Round 4 I lost to Elf combo.

A few thoughts after playing my current version:

Delver of Secrets is ever present, and is always a 3/2 flyer. I found myself often with a Muscle Sliver + Galerider Sliver and not being able to profitably attack. Talon Sliver might be a 1-2 of in the deck to combat the flying insect. It might also be correct to run a full set of Galerider Sliver + 1-2 Winged Sliver post sideboard vs Delver decks just to have enough flying.
I'm liking Daze less and less. Too many good players play around it and they can slow roll their hands vs us. We aren't that fast. Too often, I'm playing Crystalline T2, Muscle on T3+T4 and then beating down. They can happily play their 2CC cards on turn 3 because we're not presenting an overwhelming threat as of yet (they also get to threaten us with countermagic). I'm more willing to slow us down a turn and have Spell Pierce mana up.
More lands and better lands. We need to hit our land drops and require Islands to hit the key cards of countermagic, Phantasmal Image, and Crystalline Sliver. I find that until mid game, I'm tapping out or effectively tapping out with only countermagic lands up. I see 20 lands as the typical number posted, but has anyone tried 21 lands? I know that 19 lands isn't enough from some previous playing!
I'm not sure if Tundra + Trop + 3 basics is the correct plan. It might be correct to go 2x Tundra + 2x Trop + Island. I love Mutavault, it's a land + late game uncounterable creature. Cavern of Souls is too good at fixing and getting creatures to stick to be left out.
Phantasmal Image is a MVP. It can be Muscle Sliver 13-16 or you can have your own Tarmogoyf, Delver, Bob, Marit Lage Token, or Griselbrand if needed. When you can't beat them, join them.
Mutavault and Crystalline Sliver being 2/2 vs the 1/1 the lords is relevant. I find a 2/2 is with an ability is useful over a 1/1 muscle sliver when attacking or defending.
Harmonic Sliver is annoying to run maindeck, but there are just too many artifacts/enchantments that murder the deck. Worst case scenario you are blowing up your own Aether Vial after you've gotten some use out of it. Best case you are murdering Batterskull or Jitte. Game 2 and 3 you are taking out the Harmonic Slivers or you are putting in the other two, there really isn't any middle ground.
With Aether Vial + Cavern of Souls, our slivers are surprisingly hard to counter. If they can't counter our slivers, with Crystalline they stick around on the board longer than I've expected. I'm not sure where to go with this and how to profit, but I've found that countermagic wars start over opponents cards and not trying to stick a critical Crystalline or Galerider Sliver.
Gaddock Teeg SB fills your needs vs Miracles. There isn't any Miracles in my area, so I don't run him but it's an option (he's also 2 CC and costs GW which is in colors). Another possible option vs some decks would be Phrexian Revoker as another 2 CC creature that fits your color scheme (I prefer Pithing Needle but to each their own). There's no shame in calling something not-Slivers on your Cavern of Souls to force your hatebears through vs countermagic.


Onto the deck:
//Artifact (4)
4x Aether Vial

//Creatures (26)
4x Phantasmal Image
4x Crystalline Sliver
4x Galerider Sliver
2x Harmonic Sliver
4x Sinew Sliver
4x Predatory Sliver
4x Muscle Sliver

//Instants (10)
2x Brainstorm
2x Force of Will
2x Spell Pierce

//Lands (20)
2x Flooded Strand*
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Polluted Delta*
4x Mutavault
4x Cavern of Souls
1x Plains
1x Island
1x Forest
1x Tropical Island
1x Tundra

//Side Board (16)
1x Bonescythe Sliver**
1x Living Wish**
2x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Rest in Peace
2x Ashen Rider
2x Harmonic Sliver
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Pithing Needle
1x Ethersworn Cannonist
1x Teferi's Response (secret tech with Mutavault :tongue:)
1x Disrupt

//Decklist Notes
* Fetch lands should be 3x Flooded Strand and 4x Misty Rainforest. For some reason, I've misplaced my 3rd Flooded Strand.
** Screwed up and left these in from a previous version of the deck. They should be 1x Relic of Progenitus and 1x Spirit of the Labyrinth.

[M+1]

As you probably noticed, this list placed high in the latest Legacy Open. Congrats to Blake Patraw.

Maindeck (61):

4 Aether Vial
2 Relic of Progenitus

4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver
4 Hibernation Sliver
3 Muscle Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
1 Winged Sliver

4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will

1 Island
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Mutavault
3 Sliver Hive
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea


Sideboard:

2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Darkheart Sliver
3 Harmonic Sliver
2 Sower of Temptation
2 Flusterstorm
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben


I really like the list. It accurately mirrors my own thoughts on how to go about building a CounterSliver deck today:

1. No StP or other creature removal. Slivers can fly, and can be huge. Why should they care about other creatures, just fly over them, or stomp on them. Chumpblock if necessary.
2. Crystalline Sliver is always good in a meta saturated with spot removal.
3. Mass removal other than Terminus is almost non existing, or is aimed at low toughness creatures (nice Electrickey).
4. Maindeck Relic of Progenitus as a precaution against Treasure Cruise (don't know how effective it is, but I agree that one has to try something).

The only thing I have difficulty with is Sliver Hive. It seems to be that they are just bad copies of Cavern of Soul, until you hit 6 mana, maybe even then.
Did Sliver Hive do anything? Are they necessary for the deck to function?
I wonder if more duals and/or fetches, and/or City of Brass/Mana Confluence wouldn't be strictly better, also considering the Dazes and spell options.

[maritlage]

Well I have been wanting to play this deck for awhile and after finally finding a playset of Crystalline Sliver I put the deck together. Unfortunately i found in my rough drafts of playing with various lists I have found on the internet one thing become abundantly clear. THE MANA BASE IS COMPLETELY TERRIBLE. There where list that ran 11 to 12 lands that for one reason or another would tap for colorless mana because of some rider text (i.e. Cavern of Souls). Now that is not a problem for a deck such as Goblins or Merfolk but they are normally mono colored decks that may dabble in a splash from time to time. Yet when they dabble in that splash certain lands from the mono color version do not get added. This lead me to change up the mana base a bit to a more of a Temur/Jeskai Delver mana base setup which actually freed up some space to allow some card filtering.

Here is the list:
Creatures
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
3 Phantasmal Image

Spells
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Aether Vial
2 Spell Pierce

Lands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Cavern of Souls

Sideboard:
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Flusterstorm
2 Gilded Drake
2 Meddling Mage
2 Harmonic Sliver


This is the list I have been running for the past 2 weeks at my LGS Legacy tournament. The deck seems very solid and I feel more that I have not done well do to poor mulliganning and play decisions than to just being outclassed. My only thing is with the sideboard I feel that the Thalia's are unneeded and would be better served by something else such as Grafdigger's Cage, Pithing Needle, or Phyrexian Revoker. Otherwise i think that if we cut mainly the lands that do not produce colored mana or produce colored mana with a rider to a minimum the deck actually runs smoother and is not so reliant on just being able to beat face right out of the gate. Rather we can spend a few turns baiting out counters, chump blocking even just trading one for one because at the end of it all we can still just go over the top of most decks .

P.S. Normally I play T.E.S. but I needed a brake so I came to this deck and I actually do believe that this gives just about any deck that has been played at any of the last SCG Legacy IQ's or Opens a run for the money.

[Curby]

The hand-wringing over land gives me a wistful smile, because Volt warned about this years ago. "Back in my day" we successfully ran 18 land supporting up to 4 colors. There must be concessions made to Mutavault, but the other reason more lands seem necessary in today's lists is because people aren't using enough cantrips to find the mana they need. Even today, build Meathooks around a core of 7 cantrips, 7 fetches, and 4 Vials. That is, if you value consistency.

[Volt]

Hi all. The OP has been updated. I like to update it once a decade, whether it needs it or not.

So. This deck appears to have been given up for dead. Let's do something about that, shall we? I think it can be on a par with Merfolk.

[ironclad8690]

I am currently playing this on magic online:


4 Galerider Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
3 Hibernation Sliver
1 Winged Sliver

4 Aether Vial
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm

4 Mutavault
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Sliver Hive
2 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
1 Island
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta

Sideboard:
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Meddling Mage
3 Harmonic Sliver
2 Flusterstorm
2 Sower of Temptation
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Swords to Plowshares


I have really enjoyed it so far. The only thing is I really want containment priest in the board, but I really love the current configuration. I will probably have some news for you guys on Thursday when I play in the daily event.

[Volt]

Solid looking list. I think I would be worried about having so many "slivers only" mana sources, though. Cavern of Souls is a godsend, but are the Sliver Hives really worth it?

[mistercakes]

I am currently playing this on magic online:


4 Galerider Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
3 Hibernation Sliver
1 Winged Sliver

4 Aether Vial
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm

4 Mutavault
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Sliver Hive
2 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
1 Island
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta

Sideboard:
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Meddling Mage
3 Harmonic Sliver
2 Flusterstorm
2 Sower of Temptation
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Swords to Plowshares


I have really enjoyed it so far. The only thing is I really want containment priest in the board, but I really love the current configuration. I will probably have some news for you guys on Thursday when I play in the daily event.

cool list, is 4 fetches enough to justify 4 brainstorm? might there be a better card here, or a split between flusterstorms maindeck and something else? maybe 2 fluster, 2 thoughtseize? or 1 fluster, 1 brainstorm, 1 gitaxian probe, 1 cabal therapy?

(keep in mind you've probably used one fetch to start with your blue source to cast brainstorm)

cabal therapy would also be great with the sower of tempatation in the sb.

[Volt]

Yeah, the 4 fetches is part of what I was concerned about, too. Brainstorm is too important to be talking about cutting them for Flusterstorms and whatnot. You don't want your mana base to get in the way of Brainstorm. Playing so many mutavaults, caverns, and hives means you will have hands where you have no islands, and thus no way to cast Brainstorm. And having so few fetches means there will be times when you can't shuffle away those two dead cards.

Also, why 2 Underground Sea and only 1 Tundra and 1 Trop? Is that just a matter of card availability?

[ironclad8690]

Yeah, the 4 fetches is part of what I was concerned about, too. Brainstorm is too important to be talking about cutting them for Flusterstorms and whatnot. You don't want your mana base to get in the way of Brainstorm. Playing so many mutavaults, caverns, and hives means you will have hands where you have no islands, and thus no way to cast Brainstorm. And having so few fetches means there will be times when you can't shuffle away those two dead cards.

Also, why 2 Underground Sea and only 1 Tundra and 1 Trop? Is that just a matter of card availability?

I just sort of copied one of the lists that did well in the treasure cruise era. I figured if that guy can get away with it so can I. I might change it around if I feel like I am having trouble.

[Volt]

Fair enough. Can't argue with success. Patraw had quite a nice run with the slivers last year.

On another note, it seems like Envelop would be a very good sideboard card for this deck. There's a lot of bomb sorceries in this format. Terminus, Natural Order, Glimpse of Nature, Show and Tell, Reanimate/Exhume, Hymn to Tourach, etc.

[ironclad8690]

So I did a lot of thinking today on my road trip and, as much as it pains me to say, the version posted earlier does not have what it takes to compete in the online metagame.

I made some changes to my list, and I think I have really improved the combo/tempo matchups as well as stabilized the manabase like you guys suggested:


4 Galerider Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Phantasmal Image
1 Winged Sliver

4 Aether Vial
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Chalice of the Void

4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
4 Windswept Heath
4 Mutavault
4 Cavern of Souls

Sideboard:
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Karakas
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Rest in Peace
3 Meddling Mage
2 Ethersworn Canonist


I think this list actually has what it takes vs Elves, Storm, Reanimator, Sneak and Show etc postboard, while it should have a pretty nice g1 against the fair decks and all of their removal etc. Chalice breaks some matchups wide open, and Phantasmal: 1) acts as lords 13-16, 2) has no downside with Crystalline Sliver out, 3) vialing it in vs Fatty decks and copying their Shown and Told Emrakul or whatever/Griselbrand if they are reanimator (and we also have counterspells to draw into with griselbrands ability).

[Volt]

Hm. Chalice is an interesting thought. I'd really like it if we had a way of playing it for 1 on turn 1. Giving up Brainstorm is a really hard ask for me, though.

I like the sliver suite and mana base. I think you could play a couple or three basics. 1-2 islands and a plains, and replace the Windswepts with Strands. Just a thought.

[ironclad8690]

After a couple of matches I realized I need artifact/enchantment hate.

Enter Harmonic Sliver, in place of the revokers above.

Here is my testing so far:

Aluren: 1-2
Sneak and Show: 2-0
Turbo Depths: 0-2
Punishing RUG: 2-1
Deathblade: 1-2
Deathblade w/Hymn: 2-0

It is surprising how resilient this is vs the fair decks, I am hoping to get some testing in vs the unfair decks tonight in the daily event. Report to come (even if I 0-2 drop)

[Volt]

So. I've been doing some goldfishing, and I think the 4c deck does work better with a non-zero number of Sliver Hives, in addition to the 4 Caverns. I'm currently trying 2, but wouldn't be surprised if I end up at 3. Guess that Patraw guy knew what he was doing.

[ironclad8690]

Here's how I did:

Lands: 1-2

Grixis Delver: 2-0

Stax: 2-0

Infect: 0-2

Infect felt like a very challenging match to win. Lands is very beatable between Crystalline Sliver and Phantasmal Image copying Marit Lage. I can now see how Hibernation Sliver is a major swing in both the Lands matchup AND the Infect matchup, while also really helping against the Baleful Strix decks.

I think I still want to go straight Bant colored though, it was much more consistent, but the added power of hibernation might be worth it.

Gonna keep working on this deck though, super fun!

[Ultrab77]

Hello all of you!

I'm really glad this thread is open again. I started MTG in the late 90s and stopped for a while and then started again end of 2014.

I found my nice Sligh deck was outdated and that the so famous Counter Sliver was dead, but I think it isn't.

I hesitate between two lists, the standard Counter Slivers and the mirrored Merfolk with Chalice and no Brainstorm.

Here are the lists.

List 1:


4 Cavern of Souls
2 Sliver Hive
4 Mutavault
1 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Island

4 AEther Vial
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze

4 Crystalline Sliver
3 Muscle Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver
4 Hibernation Sliver
1 Winged Sliver


List Merfolk Mirror:


4 Cavern of Souls
4 Mutavault
2 Sliver Hive
1 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta

4 AEther Vial
3 Chalice of the Void
1 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Force of Will
3 Daze

4 Crystalline Sliver
3 Muscle Sliver
3 Predatory Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver
4 Hibernation Sliver
1 Winged Sliver
2 Phantasmal Image


To be honest I didn't test them on competition but both seem to have their strengths and weaknesses.

As for the SB I was thinking about something like :


3 Harmonic Sliver
2 Containment Priest
3 Rest in Peace
2 Darkheart Sliver
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Swan Song
1 Phyrexian Revoker

What do you think? Go Slivers!

[Volt]

Thanks for the mini-report, ironclad!

I'll be honest, the chalice plan doesn't immediately appeal to me, but maybe I could be talked into it. Right now, I'm concentrating on tweaking Patraw's 4c build (with a super-tech Ensnare in the main), but I've always been partial to the original Bant Hooks myself. I'm sure I'll have more to say about both.

ED: More updates have been made to the OP, btw.

[Volt]

Did some playtesting tonight, and I take it back. Patraw's manabase is clunky as hell. I took the Sliver Hives back out and even cut a mutavault to make room for more islands. It runs much smoother now, making my Brainstorms, Dazes, and even Ensnare better. Also, I've been tinkering with squeezing a couple of non-standard slivers into the maindeck for life gain effects. That's just an experiment at this point. Here's my list as of right now:

4 Crystalline Sliver
3 Hibernation Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
3 Muscle Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver
2 Syphon Sliver

4 AEther Vial
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Brainstorm
1 Ensnare

4 Cavern of Souls
3 Mutavault
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Island

ED: So, yeah, I think Syphon Sliver is a strong contender for maindeck inclusion. Darkhearts can come in from the side for the Burn matchup.

[Volt]

I have some testing results, using the 4c list from my last post.

Game 1 vs Burn is very close to 50/50. Burn used to be a bad matchup for MeatHooks, but the addition of Syphon Sliver helps even things up. After sideboarding, we should be favored.

Grixis Delver is a blowout in our favor. If they can keep your vial off the board and keep you off mana, they win. Otherwise, the slivers generally roll over them.

[Curby]

The problem with Slivers is that we need better Slivers.

Slivers are great at ground-pounding. No other tribe can run eight +1/+1 lords for 2 mana. They also have Shroud. But that's it.

Elves have card draw and cheating things into play via ramp. Goblins have library manipulation and cheating things into play via Lackey. Merfolk have countermagic, three forms of evasion, and other utility all built into their creatures.

Slivers, by and large, just win in combat... and that's when you have many of them out at once. Meanwhile, Mom+Knight wins fights with just two cards and four mana, all while providing a ton of utility via a land toolbox.

If you're going to win on the back of just being big, you need to be efficient with card slots. You can't spend 20 cards of your deck on an army that just beats, because you'll be outclassed by a deck that can spend just 8 cards on attackers, and have an extra 12 cards for utility.

So that was posted over 3 years ago, in response to Cavern's printing. Has anything really changed? We got Predatory, Merfolk got Master. We got Galerider, Merfolk got TNN. We got Cavern, Mutavault, and Image, but so did Merfolk.

Meathooks was my first competitive Legacy deck, and I love it. But at the same time, we have to be honest with ourselves and see why the more competitively-dominant tribes see more success. I'll pick on Merfolk, and outline some differences I see between them historically, and with recent lists. I don't think Meathooks can move forward meaningfully without addressing these points.


Creature size. As I've posted before, being big isn't good enough when you get can both beef and utility in other tribes, and alternately you can cheat out an Emrakul or Griselbrand and be "big enough" with only a single creature. Slivers can run 12 +1/+1 for :2: Lords, but that also means you're taking up 12 slots. Merfolk "only" have 8 such lords (we're discounting Images here since they have many other uses), but they don't need raw size because of other factors, such as:
Creature evasion. Ok, so a half-cost Winged sliver is great. Just realize that this takes up more slots, whereas Merfolk get evasion from Lords and Masters without taking up more slots, not to mention TNN trumping just about everything.
Manabase: Merfolk can run a lot of colorless land (a recent favorite here has been 4 Muta, 3 Cavern, 2 Wasteland) because it doesn't need to support a ton of colors. The upside of colors is extra utility, but...
Use of colors: With StP being dropped in a lot of recent lists, I wonder if the argument for color diversity is weakening. Why are we running such vulnerable manabases again?
Consistency: as I posted earlier on this page, a great boon to consistency used to be 8 fetches and 8 cantrips to filter through the deck and find the right mana and the right cards for any situation. Recent lists have all but dropped Ponder.
Utility: Siphon Sliver and Harmonic Sliver are great, but Merfolk can afford the slots to run more non-tribal utility such as Echoing Truth, Vendillion Clique, and Umezawa's Jitte.


tl;dr Slivers will always be a great pet deck, but it will need to outclass Merfolk in key areas that it currently loses in to be taken seriously for competitive play.

Alternate tl;dr: Meathooks v1 had some great ways in which it made use of its diverse color palette, but with the dropping of Ponder and StP, the best remaining maindeck reason to run fetches and duals is a tribe that isn't clearly better than what's available in a mono-chromatic tribe like Merfolk or Goblins. This has to be addressed.

[Volt]

Don't worry. I have no delusions of seeing Countersliver ascend to "Decks to Beat" status. I'm just trying to make the best version of the deck that I can, given what's now available to work with. I've been out of the game for 5 years, and now that I'm back, I want to play with these cool new sliver cards. When you say "pet deck," you're exactly right. This is my pet deck. I play other decks, but this is the one that I always come back to tinker with out of fondness.

Frankly, this thread probably belongs in the developmental forum at this point, since nobody is playing it, and it needs some overhauling. It would be fine with me if the mods decided to move it. That said, I do think that the deck is good enough to win or do well at small to middling tournaments. You can take it to your weekly Sunday legacy tournament and go 3-1 or 4-0 with it. Or take it to that 50- or 60-person tournament that happens every few months and T8 or T4 with it. What I'm finding is that it tends to do pretty well against other mid-range aggro-control decks. And Miracles isn't the blowout I was expecting.

[Curby]

I'm with you. I still have a Zoo deck sleeved up and that pretty much got blown out of the water by Terminus (and more decks maindecking Chalice), so I am definitely on board with doing all we can to update and improve our favorite designs as much as possible.

However, IMO even that modest goal requires addressing possible pitfalls. Do you have any thoughts about the specific points I raised? E.g. maybe I'm blowing some of these out of proportion and they're not as significant as I thought.

On to another matter, does the "pile of creatures" plan seem to work better these days than mixing in spells (again, we used to run Ponders and Swords in addition to the spells more commonly seen today)? If so, then I'd more heavily look to Chalice, which has been successfully maindecked in Merfolk for much the same reasons. If we're not going to take advantage of undercosted Legacy staples, we should punish the majority of decks that does rely on such cards.

[Volt]

Well, Crystalline Sliver is still pretty important, and you always feel better when you can lead with it. However, with the ability to run 12 muscle slivers, it is now quite plausible to win simply by playing out more muscles than your opponent can handle, followed by a galerider.

As for Swords to Plowshares, I'm still inclined to run 3-4 in Bant Hooks. Though, I admit, I haven't tested Phantasmal Image yet.

The manabase is certainly delicate, though there have been gains. Cavern of Souls is a boon, obviously. Basic Island + Cavern = cast any 2cc sliver without fear of countering. No longer do you have to worry about Daze when trying to stick that turn 2 Crystalline. Still, decks that play Wastelands and Stifles will wrack your nerves.

[Ralf]

To be honest since the printing of the "syphon sliver" the deck has the tool to be at least a T2 deck.

There is almost no way a fair deck without sweepers can race a resolved crystalline + syphon +whatever lord sliver.
Somehow, the deck has earned inevitability.

With that being said:
- without crystalline, the deck tends to fall apart to any tempo hand with 2+ spot removal.
- without syphon, the deck is "usually" unable to win a standard tempo race.
- with enough sliver density the deck might be able to cope BUT this is usually detrimental to the number of lands you are playing and a single wasteland can put you in a very bad spot.

I think if you want to build something close to competitive, you have to find the solution to the above equation:
- either to have a fast & protected crystalline + syphon combo, making the deck inevitable
- either to reach enough sliver density so that every turn past T2, you are resolving a sliver.

Vial + Sliver may no longer be the route to be taken.

Nevertheless, cavern+hive have opened a long time closed door that is just waiting to be broken through.

Once the deck has reached a competitive level against fair decks, the sideboard would have to be adjusted accordingly to beat combo decks.

You should look at:
1) 36+ sliver deck
2) Counterslivo

There might be a "right" spot in between that should answer these problems.

Ps: Chalice Slivers might be what you are looking for.
Ps2: Silvergill Adept is what makes Merfolk viable at this point. Hibernation Sliver might be the Silvergill Sliver you are looking for. The effect might not be the same but the consequence are very similar: you are searching density with Sliver as this is the deck that profit (save elves) the most of density (4 lords = 20 potential output damages).

[mistercakes]

you could consider venom sliver/striking sliver. it might be a bit cute, the venom sliver is probably pretty great vs goyfs and other fair decks.

not sure if this is better than just evading them by playing 5 flying slivers. anyway, just a thought.

[Curby]

Striking is less likely to be helpful, since we can usually go toe-to-toe with other creatures, and it's off-color. It would help our 3/3s gang-block a 5/6 goyf without dying though.

I'm a sucker for tutors and toolboxes and stuff, so Venom, Harmonic, etc. make me wonder if there's room for a small GSZ toolbox. Return to Bant colors, maindeck Harmonic, Teeg, 2 GSZ, and maybe some others in place of the Black creatures. You could add a Horned to overrun 1/1s, Venom if you need to kill a Reanimator creature (but they'd just get something Indestructible), etc.

Of course, I'm still coming to this from the "Slivers are cool and all, but what can they do besides smash" PoV. Maybe they get big enough fast enough so that you don't need anything more. But like I said, I like utility so I wonder if adding some could make sense here. Eladamri's Call is something else that has been mentioned in Meathooks before, as has Living Wish. GSZ is just newer tech that puts stuff into play directly.

EDIT: As I mentioned I'm a Zoo fan and I really wish there was a non-combo aggro deck in the format that worked worth a damn. For those working more on the pile o' Slivers plan, adding some extra 1-drops like Plated or Sidewinder to smooth out the curve might be worth considering. Also, Sylvan Library starts looking really sexy if we can count on Syphoning. Even if we can't always draw extra cards, it would be an additional way to sift through the deck.

I'd say the biggest problem with the pile o' Slivers idea is that we need to disrupt faster strategies, whether it's Sneak/show, Storm, Elves, Infect, etc. Again, I've always believed Slivers can beat face. But using 30+ slots to do nothing more than beat face doesn't often work.

[Ralf]

I'd say the biggest problem with the pile o' Slivers idea is that we need to disrupt faster strategies, whether it's Sneak/show, Storm, Elves, Infect, etc. Again, I've always believed Slivers can beat face. But using 30+ slots to do nothing more than beat face doesn't often work.

Hunter sliver should be able to deal with swarm, combined it with a venom sliver and you might be able to deal with Show.

Chalice/Thorns of Amethyst should take care of combo decks, or at least give you enough time to kill them before they kill you.

[Volt]

It sounds like you guys are veering toward more of a sliver-zoo sort of thing?

As far as the Countersliver archetype goes, I think we've pretty much established what the maximum sliver saturation is. It's 25, not including Mutavaults. And, really, there are no weaklings in the bunch any more. No more Plated Sliver, saying "I'm not so bad! I stop Lackey!" No more 2cc Flying Men that we had to put up with because evasion is that important. No, Predatory and Galerider pretty much pushed the last couple of ugly chicks off the dance card. And Syphon Sliver. He's pretty sexy, too, as it turns out. Sexy enough that I'm struggling to figure out what the right number of them is, and how many Hibernations and/or Muscles to shave to make room for them.

[Ultrab77]

Hi,

Just to feed the discussion this guy won a small tournament with a zoo list (in Brazil).


1 Karakas
3 Mana Confluence
4 Ancient Ziggurat
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Mutavault
4 Sliver Hive
1 Winged Sliver
2 Hunter Sliver
2 Sidewinder Sliver
2 Striking Sliver
2 Syphon Sliver
3 Hibernation Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 AEther Vial
4 Force of Will


You can note that the StP are replaced by the "combo" hunter + sidewinder.

T1 Sidewinder + T2 Hunter can get rid of any TNN, Elves or Mum. This in the best of the worlds.

My comments :
- only 16 blue cards for FOW this seems week
- only FOW as disruption seems a bit ambitious

I'm more enclined to drop the sidewinder, the striking and hunter in order to run Phantasmal Image and Chalice.

My current list would be (I added the Syphon after testing and winning 3 matches vs Mono Black, Canadian and UR Delver thanks to Syphon + Crystalline + Galerider on the field).


4 Cavern of Souls
3 Mutavault
2 Sliver Hive
1 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Underground Sea

4 Crystalline Sliver
3 Muscle Sliver
3 Predatory Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver
3 Hibernation Sliver
1 Winged Sliver
2 Phantasmal Image
2 Syphon Sliver

4 AEther Vial
4 Force of Will
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Daze

SB:

3 Harmonic Sliver
2 Containment Priest
3 Rest in Peace
2 Darkheart Sliver
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Swan Song
1 Phyrexian Revoker


Chalice on 1 OTP works great but has to be sided out OTD almost always. Daze is good on turn one to protect a Vial but is very often a dead card. Could maybe be replaced by Brainstorm.

[Volt]

Both of those lists look pretty good, for what they do. I just don't know about the Chalice plan, though. I mean, I know Merfolk has gone that direction, but they didn't give up Brainstorm for it. Maybe the one good thing about our crappy, fetchland-riddled manabase is that we get to use one of the best cards in the format.

[Curby]

T1 Sidewinder + T2 Hunter can get rid of any TNN, Elves or Mum. This in the best of the worlds.


I'm pretty sure this doesn't work on TNN since Provoke targets (and we can't target TNN). This won't always work on Mom, we need to target her with two instances of Provoke from uniquely colored slivers so she could only protect herself from one. Against elves Symbiotes may disrupt our killing of Elves but at the very least we could easily take out Symbiotes first.

That said, I'm really interested in Hunter. I have a pauper sliver deck that uses Striking Sliver with Hunter Sliver for a similar strategy of removal.


Maybe the one good thing about our crappy, fetchland-riddled manabase is that we get to use one of the best cards in the format.

This was one of my main points. If we need the fetches and duals manabase to support our creatures anyway, we should make the best effort to abuse the hell out of it. That goal shouldn't blind us though. Does Chalice hurt other decks more than losing Brainstorm hurts us? One of the reasons for running 8 cantrips in the older design was to find the right mana: we only had Vial as our "all colors" enabler, and we needed white for StP. With more 5-color lands and dropping more colored spells, we've slimmed down to 4 cantrips, but we might be able to lose those too.

Re: "Sliver Zoo," I'm still unconvinced that just going wide is a viable strategy. A key consideration with creature-heavy decks like Zoo, D&T, or Merfolk is that 1-2 creatures can present a fast clock, so you don't have to overextend into sweepers. Additionally, actual Zoo had a variety of removal options and non-creature spells that made it flexible in different board states. However, it would be great to see a creatures+lands deck actually do well (even Elves runs at least 12 maindeck sorceries), so I welcome testing the creature-heavy ideas.

[Volt]

If we need the fetches and duals manabase to support our creatures anyway, we should make the best effort to abuse the hell out of it. That goal shouldn't blind us though. Does Chalice hurt other decks more than losing Brainstorm hurts us? One of the reasons for running 8 cantrips in the older design was to find the right mana: we only had Vial as our "all colors" enabler, and we needed white for StP. With more 5-color lands and dropping more colored spells, we've slimmed down to 4 cantrips, but we might be able to lose those too.
Fair point. Chalice for 1 on turn 2 can be a real beating, especially when on the play. You will sometimes just win by doing that.

However, if the strategy is to consistently sideboard the chalices out when OTD, as Ultra said he does, then I question the worth of it. Also, if you don't get an early chalice, or fail to stick it, and then go on to draw chalices later, they may end up being mostly dead draws. On the other hand, it's never correct to side out Brainstorm, and you're rarely sorry to draw one at any point in the game.

On another note, we should start a Sliver Zoo thread in the Developmental forum, if there isn't already one. The idea of making a competitive sliver beatdown deck isn't without appeal.

[Volt]

Did I kill the conversation? Oops. Sorry. Certainly didn't mean to.

Here's a new list. This is pretty much your "maximum sliver saturation" list for the countersliver archetype. 29 slivers, counting the 4 Mutavaults. (though I think I might prefer to run only 3 mutavaults). Note the 3 Syphons. Did I mention they're good?

4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Hibernation Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
3 Muscle Sliver
3 Sinew Sliver
3 Syphon Sliver

4 Aether Vial
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Mutavault
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Island

And if you want a suggested, generalized sideboard, here's this:
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Harmonic Sliver
3 Hydroblast
3 Rest in Peace
3 Swan Song

[Curby]

I don't think you killed it. If anyone knows of other threads though, please post them here.

Anyway, looks like a tight list, and I dig the 7-7-7 splash color Slivers split, but are Hibernations that important that you want a full playset of something that doesn't stack? I thought they'd be more like Syphon than Crystalline and Galerider. Reducing maindeck black might allow you to drop to a single Sea and add a third Tundra to help support all the White sideboard spells. (Haven't tested your list, just a gut reaction that hopefully isn't too off base).

EDIT: So is bant a totally dead idea now that we have Syphon in addition to Hibernation? I keep trying to fit a couple Sylvan Libraries in here because I have this unnatural love for them. Sylvan wants to see more fetches to refresh the topdeck, which means fewer splash dual lands, which means you're getting pretty greedy unless you drop a fourth color, but that's unfortunate because Syphon helps fuel Sylvan. It would kinda be nice to see more fetches anyway to support the Brainstorms.

[Ralf]

That is basically my list:
- 1 hibernation
+1 Sinew

Mana base is a little different as is the sideboard.

But still, I think the deck is not competitive enough yet.

I am looking at dropping BS & Daze all together

[Volt]

The 4 Hibernations is about 1) keeping the blue count up, 2) the "poor man's crystalline" utility, and 3) my OCD desire for the 7-7-7 split you noted (lol). Whether or not it's correct is something that can perhaps be clarified with lots and lots of testing.

ED: I don't think Bant is "dead," by any means. But my tinkering and testing has been concentrated on 4c so far.

@Ralf: I've been toying with the idea of dropping Daze, as well. Basically, it's only real purpose in the deck is to help stick turn 1 Aether Vial.

[Volt]

Following up on the Dazes thing, I think I'll try this, for science:
-3 Daze
-1 Hibernation
-1 Tundra
-1 Tropical Island
-1 Underground Sea

+1 Sinew
+1 Muscle
+2 Swan Song
+1 Polluted Delta
+2 Sliver Hive

Though, maybe those swan songs should be spell pierces? Hm. I guess I can figure that out along the way.

[Volt]

Okay, I'm calling it. Bye bye Dazes. The deck runs better without them. I'm keeping the Brainstorms, though. New list:

4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Hibernation Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
3 Muscle Sliver
3 Syphon Sliver

4 AEther Vial
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce

4 Mutavault
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Sliver Hive
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Island
1 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea

This deck is... something. Maybe good? Try it out.

Another note: If you're enamored of the Chalice plan, it's pretty easy to make a transformational sideboard. -4 Brainstorm, -2 Spell Pierce, +4 Chalice of the Void, +2 ???. Or vice versa. Swap Chalices in or out depending on play/draw.

ED:

Some playtesting notes:

Delver: This is a good matchup for us. I've played dozens of games against the Grixis and Canadian Thresh variants, and found that slivers have inevitability. The main way you lose is if they manage to hit you with multiple Wastelands and Stifles early and keep you mana-screwed. They may get an early jump on you with quick Delvers, but you can usually recover and pull it out. Syphon Sliver is unfair.

Miracles: More testing is required, but so far this seems like a good matchup. No, I'm not joking. It comes as a surprise to me, too. Hibernation Sliver really shines here, turning Terminus into a minor inconvenience. Cavern of Souls and Aether Vial largely invalidate their CounterTop engine. You can wear them down.

Burn: Years ago, before Burn was even considered "good," decks that liked to throw fire directly at your face were a bad matchup. Now it's about 50/50, maybe 55/45 with appropriate sideboarding. As you would suspect, a resolved Syphon Sliver changes the game. Keep Sulfuric Vortex off the board.

[orkanelf]

Hey,
sorry for my bad english skills but i would like to post my list here:

4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Hibernation Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver
1 Winged Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
3 Muscle Sliver

4 AEther Vial
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
2 Ponder

4 Mutavault
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Island
1 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea

SB:
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Harmonic Sliver
2 Darkheart Sliver
3 Flusterstorm
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Dismember
2 Submerge

With Mutavault and Cavern of souls i have not enough Islands for Daze. Furthermore the only one good Situation for Daze:
- I start
- play an fetch or Island
- play the Aether Vial
- I ve enough Sliver to make pressure
In every other case, my Daze is just no good Card.

I think Sliver Hive is a bad choice, if you play it you can not support your Brainstorm, Ponder and Spellpierce in the way you want to.

Matchups:
Bad ones: Storm, Mud, BR Reanimator, NicFit
50/50: Goblins, Omnicens, Elfen, Infekt
good MU: Reliquary retreat, Burn, DnT, 4c Cascade, Miracle, Pox, Rug Delver


Maybe I will test the Syphon Sliver but i can not imagine this is a good choice. It costs 3 Mana -> Bad for Aether Vial and it is no pitch target for Force of Will. I do not think its power can negate its negative aspects.

[Ralf]

Maybe I will test the Syphon Sliver but i can not imagine this is a good choice. It costs 3 Mana -> Bad for Aether Vial and it is no pitch target for Force of Will. I do not think its power can negate its negative aspects.

TNN in Merfolk is 3 CMC.
This doesn't mean TNN is bad.

Multiple aether vials do happen sometimes as land floodings. You will have plenty opportunities to play Syphon.

We are not trying to pretend playing a tempo game with Slivers, rather a good ol' aggro one.

I'm glad we can exchange ideas.

Anyway, I still think we should also get rid of BS (and I might be wrong):

Pros of dropping BS:
- Cavern + Hive + a smart mix of lands should be enough to reach the perfect manabase we deserve without needing BS
- Density seems to me more valuable than quality in an aggro deck.
- Other decks are using BS better (profit more) than we do. Instead of joining them, hating (chalice/whatever) them sounds like an overall better plan.
- Manlands are already a good way to spend any mana floodings that may occur (I even tend to believe that the Hive was created to give another out in these flooding scenarii).
- Less BS might mean less fetch -> less mana death (against stifle)

Drawbacks of dropping BS
- No "Hand fixing" (average starting hand, mana floodings etc...)
- Less color fix (less fetch) -> more color death (unless we find a *perfect* ratio)
- Fewer blue *count* for FOW -> this doesn't mean we should not try to replace BS with another blue card (instead of chalice for example)

Weighting the pros and cons of playing BS in Slivers will certainly take time and a large amount of games.
Finding the *card*, to replace it, will take even longer.

Hat-off to anyone coming up with a solution.

Anyway, let's continue sharing some ideas.

Edit

After reading back some of the Merfolk thread, Phantasmal Image could be a potential guest instead of BS.
I know some of us has already used them.

[Volt]

Good posts, guys.

I like your list, Orkanelf. I take it as a good sign that people independently working on the deck can come up with such similar lists. I would encourage you to give Syphon Sliver a serious try, though. I've been finding it to be pretty amazing. As Ralf said, sometimes you have an extra Vial, and it's okay to tick one of them up to 3 for this. But, most of the time, I simply hard-cast it. And thanks to Cavern, it always sticks. Sometimes it's just win-more. Sometimes, it legitimately turns a game around, or stabilizes a shaky position. You put it in play and swing once, and immediately go from being a tempo behind to a tempo ahead.

@Ralf: I need to test a lot more, but the manabase I posted in my latest list seems to be working well, so far. With the removal of Daze, I was able to cut a couple of islands and shove in more sliver lands. But I think I'm still running enough islands and fetches to make Brainstorm (and the occasional Spell Pierce) good. As I noted, though, the list is at the point where it's a pretty simple matter to devote 4-6 sideboard slots to a "transformation" strategy. Either run the Brainstorms and swap in Chalices as appropriate, or vice versa.

[Curby]

An additional benefit of Brainstorm is shuffling away lands against Burn to protect against Price of Progress. (If we're saving FoW for Sulfuric Vortex, we need to limit exposure to the potentially painful Price.) Of course it's hard to shuffle away nonbasics while fetching nonbasics when you only have one Island to fetch! Even in this case, Chalice might be better to blank the 20-24 1-drops that they run. Chalice on 1 and on 2 is effectively GG for them, as they can't then Smash, and apparently no one plays Spree anymore. (If more and more people run Chalice though, this might change.)

I'm thinking along Death and Taxes or Merfolk lines for this build: we're not searching for bullets: we run threat-dense so that any card we draw is the right card, then we punish decks that rely on cantrips much like the Thalias and Chalices do in D&T/Merfolk. I still think Sylvan Library could make more sense than BS here for library manipulation.

[orkanelf]

Hey

I do not think BS ist such a problem. I think this is one of the best cards for this Deck.

- Cavern + Hive + a smart mix of lands should be enough to reach the perfect manabase we deserve without needing BS
Ok bot it is an allrounder. I see that Brainstorm is less great if you play the Sliver Hive

- Density seems to me more valuable than quality in an aggro deck.
This is the best Carddraw in Legacy and you are able to support it with fetchis. In best case it is like an Ancestral Recall. When I play the Brainstorm, i want to draw 3 Sliver and put 2 Lands or the 2nd or 3th Aether Vial back onto the Library and than shuffle my Library. If you do not want to play Brainstorm, you should play the 5c creature only list. So you have Density and quality ;-)
Furthermore in a Combo MU you do not want to draw the 5th or 6th sliver, you want to have the Counter you need, so there Quality is much more important.

- Other decks are using BS better (profit more) than we do. Instead of joining them, hating (chalice/whatever) them sounds like an overall better plan.
I think we are just one of the Decks using BS great (^^). When you play a chalice this is also on cc2. Also you would hit so much of our cards (Flusterstorm, Spellpierce, Aethervial, Galerider Sliver)

- Manlands are already a good way to spend any mana floodings that may occur (I even tend to believe that the Hive was created to give another out in these flooding scenario).
Ok but you can avoid mana flooding with a nice Brainstorm ;-)

- Less BS might mean less fetch -> less mana death (against stifle)
like you said: Less color fix (less fetch) -> more color death (unless we find a *perfect* ratio). We only need 2 lands so I think color is much more important than mana.


I think the only situation BS is not a good card is: you have a great hand (fe: 4 Sliver) you play brainstorm, draw 3 more Sliver ok but what exactly are you worried about? Everything is great!
Also notice that BS is a great option against discard.

You see, I am Convinced of Brainstorm :D

[Volt]

@Ralf: Phantasmal Image seems like a natural fit. However, don't forget, you won't be able to use the Caverns or Hives to generate the blue mana for it. Well, unless, you play a Cavern and name "Illusion," but that doesn't seem advisable.

[Ralf]

This is what I have in mind for now:

1 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Ancient Ziggurat
1 Undiscovered Paradise
2 Mana Confluence
2 Reflecting Pool
4 Sliver Hive
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Mutavault

3 Hibernation Sliver
3 Phantasmal Image
3 Syphon Sliver
3 Muscle Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver

3 Chalice of the Void
4 Æther Vial
4 Force of Will

SB: 1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
SB: 2 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 3 Harmonic Sliver
SB: 3 Faerie Macabre
SB: 4 Meddling Mage

[orkanelf]

I do not play the Image because it does not fit with shroud from the crystalline sliver..
But this is a Great Option against f.e. Show and Tell Decks.

[Ultrab77]

Volt did you see an impact of the 3rd Syphon?

BTW your Primer is very good, thanks! I had a nice time reading it since the recent changes.

For the BS discussion I will try your build before I comment.

[Ralf]

I do not play the Image because it does not fit with shroud from the crystalline sliver..
But this is a Great Option against f.e. Show and Tell Decks.

That's the beauty of Phantasmal Image.

It does not target so it does not care at all about Crystalline.

I would even add, Slivers might be the best deck (save Merfolk + TNN) for playing Phantasmal, because of Crystalline !

Not to mention the synergies with your deck:
- Phantasmal can be MM n° 5 to 7
- Phantasmal can be Lord n°13 to 15
- Phantasmal can be Thalia n°2 to 4 (if your first is getting killed, vialed in response, you get to choose the Thalia that stays in...)

[Volt]

That list looks good, Ralf. A little light on the blue, but probably just enough.

And, yeah, Phantasmal Image probably works even better in our deck than it does in Merfolk, at least in theory. I do worry that they'll be awkward to cast with your manabase. Are you going to test that list? You'll have to let us know how it goes.

@Ultra: Thanks! Glad you liked the updated primer! It still needs some updating, though, truth be told.

And, yeah, I'm pretty sure 3 Syphons is the correct number. They're just so good, and I don't mind drawing multiples.

[Ralf]

That list looks good, Ralf. A little light on the blue, but probably just enough.

And, yeah, Phantasmal Image probably works even better in our deck than it does in Merfolk, at least in theory. I do worry that they'll be awkward to cast with your manabase. Are you going to test that list? You'll have to let us know how it goes.

@Ultra: Thanks! Glad you liked the updated primer! It still needs some updating, though, truth be told.

And, yeah, I'm pretty sure 3 Syphons is the correct number. They're just so good, and I don't mind drawing multiples.

1) Blue count is at a healthy 18 cards.
2) 8 blue sources (4 fetch 4 blue) + 4 cavern (in a desperate case) + 4 vial. I believe there will be some hard times to cast it but...it seems reasonable.
3) I will test it
4) Sideboard is still a pile. Not sure about the Relic. Replace it with Faerie Macabre !


Edit:

After 20 games, yesterday night, against RUG and BUG (10 each), I feel the deck need a 21th land.
When there was no mana issue (read mana death), the deck is a blast to play.

I had 7 games where I did not even compete because of mana death (wasteland/double wasteland)
2 games where I managed to win through color death.
11 games where it was "no match" for tempo players.

I'll try to revamp the mana base a bit.

Edit 2:

What do you think of this manabase ?:

1 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Mutavault
4 Sliver Hive
1 Undiscovered Paradise
2 Mana Confluence
2 Reflecting Pool
1 Ancient Ziggurat

- 15 sources to cast Galerider T1
- 18 sources to cast vial T1
- 20 sources to cast chalice T2
- 14 sources to cast a multicolored Sliver by T2 (not counting Tundra/Trop + slivo mana)

I feel the last criterion might need further adjustment. But I don't know what to do.
I also feel Trop could be replaced by a Savannah, dropping T1 Galerider to 14 sources but this would ease casting lords by T2 (any mix of Sinew/Muscle/Predatory).

Any ideas ?

[Volt]

Oh, hey, look, you edited in some results!

So, if I read that correctly, you went 13-7 against Delver, with all 7 losses coming to manabase disruption? Because that pretty closely mirrors my experience. Basically, 1 out of 3 or 4 games, you die because they hit you with multiple pieces of their Wasteland/Stifle suite and you don't draw enough lands to recover. Otherwise you win.

In your case, I think adding a land is a good idea, since you cut Brainstorms. Unfortunately, things start looking a little janky once you get to the point where you're considering lands outside the usual duals/basics/fetches/hives/caverns pool. But you gotta do what you gotta do. The lands you picked seemed reasonable. I'll take a look at what's available later and see if I can come up with any decent suggestions.

[Curby]

I'm tempted to call 66% good enough and focus on other matchups. Losing all your games for a single reason is a problem, but not a major one if you're still favored in the matchup. After all, if every matchup were 66% the only deck we'd have to worry about would be the mirror.

How about Imperial Taxes, or postboard Miracles? Burn with 4 maindeck PoP? Before calling the admittedly weak manabase a serious problem, we should see if it's a crippling liability against decks with Moon effects and other forms of nonbasic hate. Aside: I dig the Choke-resistance of this heavily blue manabase.

[Ralf]

I'm tempted to call 66% good enough and focus on other matchups. Losing all your games for a single reason is a problem, but not a major one if you're still favored in the matchup. After all, if every matchup were 66% the only deck we'd have to worry about would be the mirror.

How about Imperial Taxes, or postboard Miracles? Burn with 4 maindeck PoP? Before calling the admittedly weak manabase a serious problem, we should see if it's a crippling liability against decks with Moon effects and other forms of nonbasic hate. Aside: I dig the Choke-resistance of this heavily blue manabase.

I won't draw meaningful mathematical expectations on 20 games.
The problem I see is that Aggro decks should prey on Tempo ones.

Among the decks you have evoked, I only fear Imperial Taxes.
- Miracle is T1 and the best deck in the format. They usually play 2 Blood Moon / Back to basic and yet they have to deal with Vial + Chalice. You will lose games because of a resolved Blood Moon but they cannot have it all every game. Cavern & vial remain a beating in this MU.

- Imperial Taxes is a less common D&T deck. It is playing vial as well and unless they shut down their own vial with revoker (which could be annoying), you should be able to go bigger. Equipments are a beating but Crystalline should prevent you from losing board position to Jitte. Magus of the Moon is definitely a major issue.

- Burn: Pop is a problem but so is Syphon. While facing a burn player, I would stop playing lands when I have reached 3. Not to mention how much a chalice set on 1 is a pain for them G1.


These are only "assessments" and require testing "due diligences". Nevertheless, I won't be surprised at all if those MU are around 45 / 55, after proper testing.

Slivers won't be a "Jack of all trades" deck and I'm not pretending that we will get something competitive with this archetype.
Although, I do think there is room for lots of improvements.

Let's try to make Slivers a good T2 deck, at least !

Edit: I have to replace Flusterstorm after having dropped so many blue land. Any ideas ?

[Curby]

You seem to be disagreeing with my words, but not my intentions. My only explanation is that I'm not writing clearly enough. :laugh:

I agree that more testing is required, especially against other decks and other pilots. 20 games against Delver isn't conclusive, but it's a start, and likely more than the build has gotten against the other decks I mentioned. My suggestion was not to stop testing Delver matchups, but to also cast a wider net to get initial gameplay impressions against a variety of decks.

I agree that we should try to make as viable a Legacy Slivers deck as possible. I know I've been critical, but my intent is analytical criticism striving for improvement, not just crapping on everything "just for lulz."

I'll counter one point as devil's advocate. Let's say that we should beat Delver tempo decks simply because of how the archetypes tend to interact. If you're playing what's currently an unoptimized tier 2-3 Sliver list against best-in-class Delver decks and winning roughly two thirds of the time, I don't think that's too horrible. Sure there's likely room for improvement against Delver, but again let's look at the wider field as well.

Anyway, 2c. I'm just armchair-commentating here because I have no time to test this deck, so regardless of what happens I'm grateful for all your efforts!

[Volt]

Replacement for Flusterstorm: Mindbreak Trap? It's pretty specific to the combo matchup of course. But with so many of your lands generating colorless or creature-only mana, you'll have to rely mostly on creatures, artifacts, and free spells for your sideboard.

Also, I agree with you on your comments regarding matchups, as well as expectations. I think we've probably got a good, solid Tier 2 deck here. I think if we optimize the list, and a few more people start playing it, it will start sneaking into Top 8s here and there, ala Patraw in 2014.

Btw, once you've more or less settled on a list, if you find a list that you like, I'd like to include it in the OP, as sort of a maximum-aggro Countersliver variant. If you're amenable, of course.

[Ultrab77]

Hi

I will take those 75 to the local tomorrow evening.

Expect MUD, Burn, various Delver, S&T, Reanimator and Counter Top control.



4 Cavern of Souls
3 Sliver Hive
3 Mutavault
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Island

4 AEther Vial
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Spell Pierce

4 Crystalline Sliver
3 Muscle Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver
4 Hibernation Sliver
3 Syphon Sliver

SB: 3 Harmonic Sliver
SB: 2 Containment Priest
SB: 3 Rest in Peace
SB: 3 Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Mindbreak Trap


Still unsure about the SB:
- Harmonic for MUD, CounterTop, Burn (Bridge, Eidolon), OmniShow
- Priest: Show, Reanimator
- RiP : Reanimator, BUG, Dredge
- Chalice: Burn, various when OTP, Elves
- Needle: MUD (Ugin), Wasteland decks
- Trap: Storm

Considering: Grafdigger's Cage, StP, swan song, maybe a 4th Harmonic?
What about RiP vs Relic or Tormod's Crypt?

[Volt]

Good luck Ultra.

I should tell you that I've been doing a lot more testing, and I've soured on Sliver Hive again. I know I've been waffling on that a lot, so take it with a grain of salt. Also, the Spell Pierces haven't really been working out for me, mostly because I find it very difficult to keep the mana open for it. This deck has a tendency to get behind early, so you need to tap out a lot. But you'll have to let me know what your experience with them is.

I have a new "suggested build" in the OP. I replaced the 2 Spell Pierces with Ponders and made room for a third. To me, Ponder is like a mini-tutor. The amount of games you'll win by Pondering into a Galerider is not insignificant. Or on turn 3, when you've just ticked your Vial up to 2, Ponder into Crystalline Sliver makes things so much better. Also, digging out of 1-land hands. It really works quite wonderfully in this deck. I'm not really sure why people have gone away from it in the last few years.

[Curby]

You and me both. I keep wistfully posting about our glorious 8-fetch, 8-cantrip past.

Newer printings push out cards that people think are inferior, and I have to imagine that they're right as the deck has seen net improvement due to cards like Syphon, Galerider, and Mutavault. These changes don't come without downsides though!

Sorry to keep bringing up Merfolk, but like I said it's useful to look at what works. Merfolk commonly runs 21 land, 12 of which can cast colored (non-creature) spells. Countersliver has a set of Brainstorms, which people often use to justify removal of a land*. On the other hand, it needs three or four colors, which IMO justifies the addition of a land. tl;dr If you ever see yourself having mana issues, 21 land is likely worth consideration. To satisfy my sig, maybe a 4th Hibernation.

I think the deck really does want either 0-mana (FoW) or fire-and-forget (Chalice) disruption, since it needs mana to cast creatures sans Vial, activate Mutavaults, etc. For that reason, it doesn't surprise me that Spell Pierce isn't working out. As you've mentioned, one of the best uses for countermagic is sticking and protecting your Vial, and Spell Pierce can't help stick a T1 Vial. Merfolk players keep jumping on and off the Daze bandwagon though (playing 2-3 if any) so the countermagic slots seem really fluid in these decks.

* I think this only works if you're running a ton of fetches to refresh the topdeck. I'm not convinced that 4 Brainstorms with 5-6 fetches can justify the removal of a land.

[Volt]

Adding a 21st land might be correct, especially given the abundance of Wastelands in the format. In my case, I would probably add a 7th fetch:

4 Mutavault
4 Cavern of Souls
7 fetches
1 island
2 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea

And, yeah, I think non-free countermagic just doesn't work very well in this deck. Cantrips are fine, because you can cast them on your schedule.

[Volt]

I've been doing more extensive, rigorous testing against Delver decks, using the following list:

4 Crystalline Sliver
3 Hibernation Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
2 Syphon Sliver

4 AEther Vial
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Ponder

4 Mutavault
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Island
2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Underground Sea

Note the addition of a 21st land, as suggested by Kirby. Also, no Sliver Hives, as suggested by me. I don't miss them. The manabase feels pretty comfortable to me. And then there's the Ponders, which I stand by. But they could be Dazes, or Plows, or whatever.

As for the matchups... After playing several dozen games, I'm tentatively prepared to say the following. The matchup against the Pyromancer version of Delver seems to be in our favor, somewhere in the range of 55/45 to 60/40. However, the Canadian Thresh version, with good ol' geese and goyfs, is tougher. That matchup seems to be almost exactly 50/50.

[Curby]

Do you ever feel the need for more than 4 Flying-providing Slivers, or can we win on the ground often enough in the cases where Winged doesn't show up?

Do you always play T1 Galerider when you have it and no Vial? When might you cantrip instead of Galerider on T1? Perhaps digging for hate against combo?

[Volt]

Well, you do lose games due to not finding Galerider fast enough, of course. But not too often, I think. You can often (but not always) win a ground contest, especially if you land a Syphon. Ponders help with finding Galerider, obviously. In fact, I'm considering dropping a Muscle to add the third Ponder back in.

On whether or not to play Galerider on T1, that's an excellent question, and one I ask myself a lot. If you play it out against a deck with Plows or Bolts, you gotta figure there's a 50% chance it won't survive long enough to swing. I think, generally, it's best not to play it unless you have another one ready to go. Ponder is generally for finding land or Crystalline early, then muscle or Syphon midgame, then Galerider to finish. In games 2 and 3, it's also for finding your hate cards.

Another note: Against Miracles, you actually want to dig for Hibernation Sliver more than Crystalline. Hibernation makes Terminus a joke.

[Ultrab77]

So I went to the shop yesterday and ended with a nice 3-0-1.

I took finally the aggressive version including 21 lands as suggested and chalice.

We were around 20 players, I saw Miracles x 2, Elves x 2, MUD x 2, D&T x 2, Lands, Goblins, OmniShow and the rest I don't know.


4 Cavern of Souls
3 Sliver Hive
4 Mutavault
1 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta

4 AEther Vial
4 Force of Will
3 Chalice of the Void

4 Crystalline Sliver
3 Muscle Sliver
3 Predatory Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver
4 Hibernation Sliver
2 Phantasmal Image
3 Syphon Sliver
1 Winged Sliver

SB: 4 Harmonic Sliver
SB: 2 Containment Priest
SB: 3 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 Vapor Snag


R1: Lands (Eternal Gardens)

G1 I Fow his T1 Brainstorm (maybe a mistake). Then he quickly assembles but I have on the board crystalline, hibernation, galerider and a couple of mutavaults. He can't pass the wall and I win.
+ 2 vapor snag
+ 1 needle
- 3 Chalice
G2 he assembles T2 and I scoope
G3 I keep a one lander with Vial, Vapor Snag and Phantasmal Image. He assembles T2 but I can Vapor Snag his token. Then he wastes me and gets a Tabernacle which leaves me with the sole Vial. He assembles, attacks but I vial in the Image copying his token. 1-0

R2: Death and Taxes

G1 I face an early Sword of Ice and Fire but he can't get through Hibernation. I land a Syphon and race him.
+4 Harmonic
- 2 Phantasmal Image
- 1 Muscle
- 1 Crystalline
G2 I Fow his vial and land a T2 Chalice. He scoops, revealing 2 mum and 2 StP. 2-0

R3: Goblins

G1 An army of goblins with haste and two lords roll over me
+ 4 Harmonic (I fear blood moon)
- 2 Image
- 2 xx (don't remember, not blue)
G2 T2 Crystalline was gg, he shows me a hand full of targeted hate
- 3 Chalice
+ 1 Image
+ 2 slivers I boarded out earlier
G3 he mulls to 4, keeping a vial, lackey and wastelands. Bad news, I have 4 lands, Vial, Muscle and Harmonic. I make him waste my T1 Mutavault, land a muscle as blocker for his lackey and the Harmonic T4 is enough. 3-0

R4 Monastery Mentor Miracles

G1 I keep a hand without Crystalline or Hibernation, he swords, bolts everything but I fow his monastery and I can finally go through with Cavern + Crystalline + lords
+ 4 Harmonic
+ 2 Vapor snag
- 2 Image
- 1 Winged
- 2 Lords
- 1 Crystalline (maybe, don't remember)
G2 Long game. I have early chalice on 1 and vial but he manages to remove everything. I keep Hibernation and lords, can recover from 3 Terminus thanks to Syphon, but he has Jace and finally lands a Blood Moon while at 4 and me having all slivers in hand following a Terminus. No Mutavault, no vial and he can combo.
G3 We play the last 5 rounds. He lands a blood moon but misses one round to win. 3-0-1

Thoughts:
- They couldn't believe I was on the final table with slivers. Nice.
- Chalice is good, won me two games, kept me alive vs Miracles
- I didn't miss more counters most of the time
- Phantasmal Image is sometime useful (as a lord, for Fow), sometimes awesome. I could imagine a 3rd one.
- Syphon is good but I could imagine get down to 2
- I need to work this SB out. I'll definitely keep the Harmonic, Vapor Snag and RiP. I could add a Canonist for Elves and Storm instead of Trap
- We need something for Blood Moon. Really.
- didn't miss Brainstorm but that was only 4 rounds
- Manabase : I miss an Underground Sea but I would keep some Hives. 21 Lands seems better

My changes would be for MB:
- 1 Tundra
+ 1 Underground Sea
+ 1 Phantasmal Image
- 1 Syphon

The Sideboard needs some improvement. G1 we can compete most of the time. We need to fight Blood Moon with blue mana.

EDIT : I was thinking of adding Seal of Cleansing, Surgical Extraction and Canonist to compensate the weaknesses of the board.

We have a competitive deck, most of the time 50/50 minimum vs current meta. With a bit of refining and a better SB I can imagine performing at the same level T2 than Burn, Merfolk or D&T.

[Ralf]

4 Cavern of Souls
3 Sliver Hive
4 Mutavault
1 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta

4 AEther Vial
4 Force of Will
3 Chalice of the Void

4 Crystalline Sliver
3 Muscle Sliver
3 Predatory Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver
4 Hibernation Sliver
2 Phantasmal Image
3 Syphon Sliver
1 Winged Sliver

SB: 4 Harmonic Sliver
SB: 2 Containment Priest
SB: 3 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 Vapor Snag


Gratz !

Hibernation n°4 and only 10 lords are something I will consider testing.

How have you liked the 1-of Winged ?

How was your mana base ? Did you get stuck with uncastable Slivers/Spells in hand ?

[Volt]

Nice job, Ultra! You guys may win me over to this aggro-chalice plan yet!

As for sideboard cards to deal with Blood Moon... The first thing that comes to my mind is blue blasts.

[Ralf]

Nice job, Ultra! You guys may win me over to this aggro-chalice plan yet!

As for sideboard cards to deal with Blood Moon... The first thing that comes to my mind is blue blasts.

Don't get psycho about BM effect.
We are already at a healthy 8 cards against such a card (4 Vial + 4 FOW). If you add 2x Echoing Truth and keep an island in the deck you are at 10 cards.

You cannot draw any conclusion at this very stage and I would rather play cards impacting wider MU than just answering potential moon blood decks.

Let's first work out the SB and finish the MB before anything else.

[Curby]

Blue blasts are great against BM, but do we have good targets other than the enchantment? Is Pyromancer a problem, for example? Sneak Attack?

If we're likely to have 2-3 Harmonics anyway, then Echoing Truth is useful to bounce it and then play a Harmonic to destroy it if they try to play it again and we don't have FoW. I like that Truth is useful against other threats and disruption as well.

I agree with Ralf that we shouldn't get too hung up on a single piece of hate, but at the same time the process of tuning a sideboard is identifying threats to our gameplan and countering them (or shifting our gameplan to be resilient to them). A balanced approach would be to consider cards that help against a given card (e.g. Blood Moon) while also covering other threats. For example, Harmonic Sliver covers a variety of disruption, but requires a Vial or multicolored mana to cast it.

[Ralf]

For now and given the mana base you are electing to play there is just an alternative:

Either you play a hatebear board with some of the best hatebears white provides.

Or you can play a more spell oriented board.

I have no clue at the moment which one is better.

Meddling mage / Ethersworn / Priest (nonbo with vial) / Tidehollow scullers are a hell of cards. They are along the deck core synergy but are also hated by the very same cards hating aggro deck (sweepers to name it). Not to mention that they do not profit from Crystalline or Hibernation abilities.

Hatebears are also on the slow trend against combo decks. But I like the synergy they provide with a chalice plan.
MM is asking for hand knowledge to get the best out of them. We are not playing discards so that we might need to put some scullers along with them.

It will be hard to come up with a perfect sideboard but at least we can mix up sideboard tables and see what is missing / lacking with each plans. Be it a hatebear oriented sideboard or a more spell oriented.

Just keep in mind we are an aggro deck and being able to push through the last point of damage might be the only thing we should care about in the very end.

[orkanelf]

My Thoughts:
- 4 Mutavault + dual + island + 2 fetch

pros:
often Muta is "win more" (without other slivers just 2/2 and you do not need him when you have some sliver.)
fixing Land base, better for : Daze, Brainstorm, counter, better color support
My experience: I loose more games for having a Muta instead of an island than winning a game with Muta.

contra:
muta is a land making damage
nice interaction between muta and crystallien/Hibernation and Vial

Maybe make higher {B} count and play for example Thougtseize to have more cards against combo decks.

List

4 Aether Vial
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Thoughtseize

4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver
3 Hibernation Sliver
3 Muscle Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
2 Underground Sea

SB:
2 Surgical extraction
2 Spell Pierce
3 Harmonic Sliver
2 Flusterstorm
2 Submerge
2 Thoughtseize
1 dismember
1 Tormod's Crypt

I think I will test something like that.

[Ralf]

My Thoughts:
- 4 Mutavault + dual + island + 2 fetch

I think I will test something like that.

I think you should try it and give us some feedbacks.

The issues I see are twofolds:

- TS is a pretty dead draw after early game
- Daze is a pretty dead draw after early game, even more in a list not playing stifle NOR wasteland.

Not to mention that, Mutavault is being played in most Merfolk decks since ages. Unless they are wrong, there must be a very good reason why they are still doing so.

Don't forget that Merfolk & Slivers are not dangerous by themselves (you don't drop a lord and call it a day like resolving a tarmo); only quantity (swarm) matters.
Once you have reached a critical mass (4 slivers in play can be seen as the upper critical mass), you are basically unstoppable (save sweeper).

[Chronatog]

If mana base is an issue and Blood Moon is a serious threat, why not to try to add some mana producing slivers?

[Chronatog]

Don't forget that Merfolk & Slivers are not dangerous by themselves (you don't drop a lord and call it a day like resolving a tarmo); only quantity (swarm) matters.
Actually, True Name Nemesis is quite dangerous on his own and sometimes I wonder if my Merfolk deck would be stronger if I had only TNN and Phantasmal Image in it and used the rest of the space for counterspells/cantrips and controls. There is no equivalent to TNN among slivers.

[from Cairo]

Either you play a hatebear board with some of the best hatebears white provides.

Or you can play a more spell oriented board.

I have no clue at the moment which one is better.

Primarily from a theoretical stand point. But my inclination given the shell (Caverns, Chalice and Aether Vial) it would stand to reason that Hatebears play to this deck construction better.

IE Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm, Envelop, Swan Song, etc are shut down by Chalice. There is a non-zero amount of relevance that they cannot be cast off of a Sliver Hive + Cavern of Souls hand - where maybe some Galeriders, Muscles and Ethersworn Canonists could?

Given the lists people have been throwing around 7-8 Crystalline/Hibernation, 10-12 Muscle, 4-5 Galerider, 2-3 Syphon, 1-3 Image, Fows, Vials, Chalices and 21ish land. I might be inclined to board something like...

3 Rest in Peace
3 Harmonic Sliver
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Containment Priest
2 Submerge
1 Pithing Needle
1 Phyexian Revoker
1 Gaddock Teeg

Feel like this leaves 4-5 options to adjust vs most decks just to rattle off options vs current DTBs:

ANT - Canonist, Teeg, Revoker
BUG Shardless - RIP, maybe Harmonic if on Strix, maybe Revoker if heavier PWs, Submerge could be ok
Canadian Thresh - RIP and Submerge
Death and Taxes - Harmonic and Revoker
Elves - Submerge, Canonist, Priest, Revoker, Gaddock
Miracles - Needle, Revoker, Teeg, Harmonic
Team America - RIP and Submerge

Feel like RIP and Priest cover dedicated GY; Canonist and Submerge help against Infect; RIPs and Needle vs lands; Priests and Gaddock/Needle effects vs Sneak and Show.

[Curby]

My Thoughts:
- 4 Mutavault + dual + island + 2 fetch
...
Maybe make higher {B} count and play for example Thougtseize to have more cards against combo decks.


Very interesting, please let us know how it performs if you test it. Thoughtseize was discarded in earlier versions of the deck because fetches and Hibernations already put a strain on our life total. Since you're not adding Syphon, that situation has not changed, and I have to imagine the result (namely that Thoughtseize is not viable) will not change either. Would be happy to be proven wrong.

An extra note in Mutavault's favor is that it does give us another angle to win on vs Sweepers, the counterargument being that Miracles can Terminus at instant speed after we animate our lands.


If mana base is an issue and Blood Moon is a serious threat, why not to try to add some mana producing slivers?

I've really been hoping that someone makes Homing Sliver, Eladamri's Call, Green Sun's Zenith, or Sylvan Library work. Then we can afford to run a wider variety of utility Slivers. As I wrote earlier, colors give us a variety of answers: if we're not taking advantage of it, we're opening ourselves up to inconsistency and disruption without maximizing the potential value of being multicolor. They're all safe from Chalice on 1, unlike blue cantrips. The problem is that we start to get low on blue cards for FoW.


Actually, True Name Nemesis is quite dangerous on his own and sometimes I wonder if my Merfolk deck would be stronger if I had only TNN and Phantasmal Image in it and used the rest of the space for counterspells/cantrips and controls. There is no equivalent to TNN among slivers.

Merfolk/Stoneblade aside: Merfolk has two ways of winning: swarming with Lord-buffed */1s, and attacking with TNN(s). These can work in concert, but the idea is that they have two powerful forms of evasion that can work independently. If you were going TNN-only, I think you'd be well-served to pivot towards Stoneblade, and run equipment on the unblockable Nemeses.


IE Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm, Envelop, Swan Song, etc are shut down by Chalice.

Minor point: Flusterstorm in many cases is not shut down by Chalice. If we have a Chalice out, we can still Force Spike for at least one to try to counter their spell. If we don't have a Chalice out, hooray. It's also still useful against the copies of Storm's kill spell though they'll often Duress us beforehand to get rid of it. Merfolk commonly runs Flusterstorms in the side, along with 3-4 Chalices in the maindeck.

[Volt]

So, here's something that was barely considered and dismissed long ago, but might be pretty good tech now. Shadow Sliver. Just a singleton in the maindeck. If you're inclined to run a Winged as Galerider #5, consider this instead. This could be our TNN. Sort of. I'm going to test it out.

[Ralf]

So, here's something that was barely considered and dismissed long ago, but might be pretty good tech now. Shadow Sliver. Just a singleton in the maindeck. If you're inclined to run a Winged as Galerider #5, consider this instead. This could be our TNN. Sort of. I'm going to test it out.

I think Winged is a 5th life insurance against Delver. We are not trying to get another evasion tool rather something to have a better chance to find a mean to block flying threats.

This could be seen as 3rd Syphon, sort of.

[Volt]

Well, I won't argue about it too much until I've actually tested it for a while. I'll just point out that sometimes it's nice to have a way to attack through flyers. And there are other flying creatures in the format besides Delver.

[Ultrab77]

Gratz !

Hibernation n°4 and only 10 lords are something I will consider testing.

How have you liked the 1-of Winged ?

How was your mana base ? Did you get stuck with uncastable Slivers/Spells in hand ?

Hibernation won me the games vs D&T, Lands and Miracles. I think we need the 4 copies but maybe 3 are correct with Brainstorm.

Evasion was much needed and Winged was sometimes good when Vial was on 2 or discarded to Fow. Shadow Sliver could be a more all-in version but you can't block Delver or Marit. To be tested by Volt :smile:

I think the manabase when including Underground Sea is good. The Hives are useful when you get a Hand with Crystalline + Hibernation + Muscle.
I got stuck once with Syphon and Hibernation when I only saw fetches and had no Sea. As for the spells, the blue count under 20 for Fow can be problematic and sometimes you will have to bounce a Hibernation from the board to discard it to Fow.

4 Cavern of Souls
2 Sliver Hive
4 Mutavault
1 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta

EDIT: it's almost Patraw's manabase. The guy has been apparently performing with slivers since 2007 so he must know what he's doing.

For the SB the proposition from Cairo seems reasonnable:
3 Rest in Peace
3 Harmonic Sliver
2 Ethersworn Canonist (or Mindbreak Trap)
2 Containment Priest
2 Submerge
1 Pithing Needle
1 Phyexian Revoker
1 Gaddock Teeg

Maybe Board:
Darkheart Sliver
Surgical Extraction
Vapor Snag
Thalia
Hard or soft counters

Maybe we just have to accept to loose to Back to Basics or Blood Moon but it's risky since Merfolk, Goblins, UWR Miracles, Sneak-Show, Painter etc. can run it.

So I would maybe MB keep only 2 Syphon for 1 Echoing Truth. But we would go weaker to Burn. Still to be tested.

I will continue testing on Cockatrice and take it to the weekly if I can.

[Volt]

Oh, yeah, definitely add an Underground Sea.

I like that sideboard, too, btw. I would stick with Ethersworn Canonist over Mindbreak Trap, I think. It's more versatile.

[mistercakes]

i think you could consider hydroblast/blue blast in sb for blood moon. far fewer decks run back to basics, and the blasts would also increase your count on FoW pitch cards as well. because you have the 1 island, you could fetch it early on and it will give you outs, at least more than now. obviously still ideal to land a harmonic first, but this also gives you some free healing salves vs burn decks, and may coincidentally improve other matchups. (burning reanimator, goblins, past in flames (although prob will be discarded first), grixis delver)

anyway it's not the best idea in the world, but if you are really afraid of blood moon then it's what you can play more easily.

[Volt]

Yeah, I like to run a couple of blue blasts in my sideboard anyway. They get used.

[Khamul]

Wow, Guys, you revived the Sliver discussion and might have won me over to your Side :)
Now it's only a matter of when all my Slivers will arrive 'til I can play them in real life.

I've been playing Merfolk intensively for the last few months, and tested Slivers as well. Both Decks play out quite similar - pros of Slivers being that they can stall Marit Lage for a few turns and that they don't fold to Punishing Fire once a Crystalline arrives on the Board (yeah, Merfolk has TNN, but 3 per Turn is less than 6+ per Turn). The things that set Merfolk apart from Slivers are: Card draw in Silvergill Adept and being mono-colored.
And trust me when I'm saying this: In most Matchups, Silvergill Adept is the glue that makes Merfolk function. I've come as far as adding a Sygg, River Cutthroat in my Merfolk lists because that Card Draw on a body that gets bigger with lords is so unbelievably good.

I definitely think that you guys are on a good way trying out Hibernation Sliver to have some sort of own "Card Draw" and combining it with Syphon Sliver to offset the Life Loss. While I wasn't a fan of Syphon at first glance, I found it really helpful myself.
Kirby pointed out that you loose a lot of Slots trying to provide everything to your Slivers. That's true. But you're also not prone to something like: "I kill your only lord, now your creatures are small again AND don't have any evasion, so they can just stare at my Deathrite and Tarmogoyf". In Merfolk, one Removal Spell can kill your Pump AND Evasion. In Slivers, your opponent has to decide what he doesn't want. And you have more ways of protecting your key guys from Removal (12 in 4 Force, 4 Crystalline, 4 Hibernation, while Merfolk only has 4 Forces).

The Manabase - especially with Sliver Hive in it - isn't shabby, too. You can cast every Sliver in the Deck with a Dual and a Cavern/Hive. I myself am still torn between 2 or 3 Hives - it depends on how many blue cards I want in my Sideboard.
Yes, with Hive you loose out on blue-producing Lands for spells, which brings me to my next point: Brainstorm doesn't work like it's supposed to do in Slivers. At least not in a 4color Version that doesn't run Swords to Plowshares anymore. All it may do is shuffling unwanted Lands away. Merfolk could play like that too, but they don't. Why? Because this Deck is, in most cases, happy to flood out so that it can make full use of Mutavault (and/or Wasteland/Factory). And because simply laying dumb beaters that hit works out. Really, it does. And you'd be surprised how many Decks are just shut off by Chalice of the Void.

Basically, what I'm proposing is to try to build Slivers like Merfolk 2.0 for now, make it work like that and then start to change it. Maybe that's not the right way for Slivers to go - in Modern, they became completely different, using Sedge Sliver, Manaweft Sliver and Collected Company, and can take a completely different approach at the game.
In Legacy, the ability to completely dodge any form of removal could become Sliver's strength, at the price of being a bit slower than Merfolk (and having a worse manabase). I really like Ultrab77's approach, which really looks a lot like Merfolk (3 Chalice, 3 Image), in a good way.

I am agreeing with Volt in the way that I don't have any delusions that Slivers could become DtB at once, but in my eyes, they have at least a chance to rise up to the level Merfolk's sitting at currently.


I like that sideboard, too, btw. I would stick with Ethersworn Canonist over Mindbreak Trap, I think. It's more versatile.

Originally, I just wanted to answer to this comment, but I got carried away :P
I'm rather torn if I just want counterspells in my board, or Hatebears as well. Storm will probably bring in Massacre nonetheless, if they play it, and Sneak and Show might also bring Pyroclasm. I agree with Ethersworn Canonist being more versatile than Trap, but it does nothing on it's own against Sneak and Show (and to some extent, Reanimator). So I'll test Meddling Mage in this spot - currently that's occupied by Negate.

Keep the discussion going, guys. I'll follow you and try to get my thoughts in, too.

[mistercakes]

Wow, Guys, you revived the Sliver discussion and might have won me over to your Side :)
Now it's only a matter of when all my Slivers will arrive 'til I can play them in real life.

I've been playing Merfolk intensively for the last few months, and tested Slivers as well. Both Decks play out quite similar - pros of Slivers being that they can stall Marit Lage for a few turns and that they don't fold to Punishing Fire once a Crystalline arrives on the Board (yeah, Merfolk has TNN, but 3 per Turn is less than 6+ per Turn). The things that set Merfolk apart from Slivers are: Card draw in Silvergill Adept and being mono-colored.
And trust me when I'm saying this: In most Matchups, Silvergill Adept is the glue that makes Merfolk function. I've come as far as adding a Sygg, River Cutthroat in my Merfolk lists because that Card Draw on a body that gets bigger with lords is so unbelievably good.

I definitely think that you guys are on a good way trying out Hibernation Sliver to have some sort of own "Card Draw" and combining it with Syphon Sliver to offset the Life Loss. While I wasn't a fan of Syphon at first glance, I found it really helpful myself.
Kirby pointed out that you loose a lot of Slots trying to provide everything to your Slivers. That's true. But you're also not prone to something like: "I kill your only lord, now your creatures are small again AND don't have any evasion, so they can just stare at my Deathrite and Tarmogoyf". In Merfolk, one Removal Spell can kill your Pump AND Evasion. In Slivers, your opponent has to decide what he doesn't want. And you have more ways of protecting your key guys from Removal (12 in 4 Force, 4 Crystalline, 4 Hibernation, while Merfolk only has 4 Forces).

The Manabase - especially with Sliver Hive in it - isn't shabby, too. You can cast every Sliver in the Deck with a Dual and a Cavern/Hive. I myself am still torn between 2 or 3 Hives - it depends on how many blue cards I want in my Sideboard.
Yes, with Hive you loose out on blue-producing Lands for spells, which brings me to my next point: Brainstorm doesn't work like it's supposed to do in Slivers. At least not in a 4color Version that doesn't run Swords to Plowshares anymore. All it may do is shuffling unwanted Lands away. Merfolk could play like that too, but they don't. Why? Because this Deck is, in most cases, happy to flood out so that it can make full use of Mutavault (and/or Wasteland/Factory). And because simply laying dumb beaters that hit works out. Really, it does. And you'd be surprised how many Decks are just shut off by Chalice of the Void.

Basically, what I'm proposing is to try to build Slivers like Merfolk 2.0 for now, make it work like that and then start to change it. Maybe that's not the right way for Slivers to go - in Modern, they became completely different, using Sedge Sliver, Manaweft Sliver and Collected Company, and can take a completely different approach at the game.
In Legacy, the ability to completely dodge any form of removal could become Sliver's strength, at the price of being a bit slower than Merfolk (and having a worse manabase). I really like Ultrab77's approach, which really looks a lot like Merfolk (3 Chalice, 3 Image), in a good way.

I am agreeing with Volt in the way that I don't have any delusions that Slivers could become DtB at once, but in my eyes, they have at least a chance to rise up to the level Merfolk's sitting at currently.



Originally, I just wanted to answer to this comment, but I got carried away :P
I'm rather torn if I just want counterspells in my board, or Hatebears as well. Storm will probably bring in Massacre nonetheless, if they play it, and Sneak and Show might also bring Pyroclasm. I agree with Ethersworn Canonist being more versatile than Trap, but it does nothing on it's own against Sneak and Show (and to some extent, Reanimator). So I'll test Meddling Mage in this spot - currently that's occupied by Negate.

Keep the discussion going, guys. I'll follow you and try to get my thoughts in, too.

if you're afraid of massacre, don't play your tundra

[Volt]

It seems we can't stop comparing ourselves to that mono-blue deck that runs all the fish-tailed dudes. Okay, fair enough. After all, if you were to show a random player the contents of our deck, minus the slivers and multi-color lands, they would undoubtedly assume we were playing Merfolk.

On the matter of Silvergill Adept and card advantage... Yeah, it would be nice if we had a way to draw extra cards. Since we don't, we have to settle for virtual card advantage (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/fundamentals/6432_Virtual_Card_Advantage_Theory.html). Crystalline and Hibernation tend to invalidate any removal spells the opponent might draw, and once we assemble a decent team on the board, our opponent's creatures tend to become moot.

It seems we all agree Syphon Sliver is a valuable addition to the deck. Because, unfortunately, assembling a team of slivers can sometimes seem ponderously slow in this format. As a matter of course, we find ourselves having to "catch up" to our opponent in many games. Syphon Sliver is often what bails us out and makes that strategy work.

On the manabase and the matter of To B(rainstorm) or Not to B(rainstorm)... Running 4 Cavern of Souls is an absolute no-brainer. Right? Right. Moving on. Sliver Hives are obviously a nice additional city-of-brass for casting slivers. Unfortunately, as I've previously noted, I find that playing so many sliver lands gets in the way of Brainstorm and any other colored non-sliver spells we might want to run. You can't depend on being able to reliably cast these spells when you only have 8-10 lands in the deck to do it with. You really need to get that count up to 12 or 13. And so we arrive at perhaps the main issue that divides us at the moment: Brainstorm or Sliver Hive, one of them has to go. For the time being, I've elected to forego the Hives in favor of more traditional lands. And it seems fine, really. It's like the manabase we used to run 6 years ago, plus Cavern of Souls. I don't have much trouble getting the slivers out of my hand. That said, y'all may still end up being right. Perhaps it's better to play Chalices for the chance of "just winning" on turn 2 sometimes. Or simply cram in as many slivers as we possibly can and to hell with "digging" and hand-sculpting. Just play those slivers out as fast we can and say "Deal with that!"

ED: One last note, in regards to the Merfolk and slivers. I'll say this. It's not fun to play against Merfolk. Merfolk is certainly favored. You want to know why? It isn't just the island-walking; we could potentially race them, if it weren't for this one other card they play. Have you guessed what it is? It's Mutavault. Their mutavaults can always block our slivers, and they're always bigger. And there's really not a damn thing we can do about it, except hope they don't draw any.

ED2: I'm leaving that last remark there as a monument to my stupidity, but striking it out so everybody immediately knows not to take it seriously.

[Ralf]

ED: One last note, in regards to the Merfolk and slivers. I'll say this. It's not fun to play against Merfolk. Merfolk is certainly favored. You want to know why? It isn't just the island-walking; we could potentially race them, if it weren't for this one other card they play. Have you guessed what it is? It's Mutavault. Their mutavaults can always block our slivers, and they're always bigger. And there's really not a damn thing we can do about it, except hope they don't draw any.

Are you serious ?
Read again "Predatory Sliver", "Galerider" and think about our Mutavault (Sliver + Merfolk thing + Islandwalk) as well...

[Volt]

Are you serious ?
Read again "Predatory Sliver", "Galerider" and think about our Mutavault (Sliver + Merfolk thing + Islandwalk) as well...

Oh, heh, you're right. I had failed to consider the "Sliver creatures you control" thing. I guess I'm still stuck in 2010. Hm. That does change things. I wonder how much? *Fires up Cockatrice*

ED: This is why it's good that we talk these things out here. I may occasionally say something embarrassingly dumb, but at least I learn something.

ED2: So, yeah, now I think the Merfolk matchup might actually be favorable. Though I need play a larger sample of games to be sure.

[Curby]

You're not the only one. There've been lists posted recently that call for 3 each of Muscle and Predatory. For Merfolk and the mirror (ha!), Predatory should be preferred.

As a reminder, if someone Bolts your 2/2 Muscle, you can Vial in Crystalline in response to make the Bolt fizzle, right? Similarly if someone Wastes your Mutavault, you can Vial in Crystalline and animate Mutavault in response to make the Wasteland ability fizzle?

[Volt]

You're not the only one. There've been lists posted recently that call for 3 each of Muscle and Predatory. For Merfolk and the mirror (ha!), Predatory should be preferred.

As a reminder, if someone Bolts your 2/2 Muscle, you can Vial in Crystalline in response to make the Bolt fizzle, right? Similarly if someone Wastes your Mutavault, you can Vial in Crystalline and animate Mutavault in response to make the Wasteland ability fizzle?

Correct and correct.

On that note, here's a little tip that occurred to me recently. If you have Crystalline + Mutavault on the board, and you're counting on being able to block something with the Mutavault, but you only have one spare mana open to activate it, and it's possible your opponent could rip Wasteland, you should activate the Mutavault during your opponent's Upkeep.


THIS THREAD IS BEING RETIRED. DO NOT POST.

[Aggro_zombies]

New thread here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?30198-Deck-Primer-Countersliver-%28MeatHooks%29&p=919872#post919872