Discard

[Galroth]

Intro

I’ve been playing Discard since I picked up the game. It’s been a pet project and first love since Ice-Age and the brokenness of Necropotence. I have little doubt that I’m quite bias in favor of the deck. That said I’ve tried to write the following from the most objective perspective I can muster. In addition, I realize my experience with Discard has probably allowed me to pilot to wins that someone picking up the deck could not. Regardless, I think Discard is a serious competitor in the legacy environment.


Why Play It?

Discard absolutely obliterates combo, tends to roll control, and surprisingly has a fair match-up against aggro. You’re probably calling bullshit on the aggro match-up. Remember that you don't have to deal with half of their threats. That turn 4 kill they had? If they're lucky it's a turn 7 or 8 kill. Point in case; you would think UG Madness would stomp discard. My friend was under the same opinion; and I admit I think Madness has the better game, but after 11 games Discard came out on top of a standard T1 UG Madness build 6 to 5. Discard really doesn't have a nuts draw either, so it's hard to chalk it up to simple luck. I imagine another 20 games would likely show that Madness has the superior game, but the results were surprising nonetheless.


Strengths

To start: just a couple of observations about discard in general. Your whole deck is aimed at card advantage. Discard isn't aiming for the quick kill, it disrupts your opponent’s game plan, puts them in top-deck mode, then tosses down threats which your opponent needs to top deck for. The harder your threats are to deal with, the better!

The Mana Curve - Discard is a quick deck, an extremely quick deck. It’s tempo is akin to fast aggro. Your mana-curve is insane, which is both great and necessary because you want every single card you can get out of their hand before they have the chance to play it. My preferred build has the lowest curve of any deck I’ve ever played. (I should mention that because of this Chalice of the Void is your worst possible fear. But what else do you pack Duress and Cabal Therapy for?)

Consistency - Discard is the most consistent deck I’ve ever piloted, particularly with regard to the mono black builds. You have an extremely solid and resilient mana base. In addition you do not need a great variety of cards that interact with each other. Your typical legacy deck runs: a kill condition, disruption/counters, card manipulation/draw, and removal. To clarify what I’m talking about, examine Threshold: the kill is the thresh creatures, a compliment of nine counters is standard, card manipulation/draw is found in the cantrips, and the inclusion of Swords to Plowshares or Lightning Bolt is present. The optimal draw for Threshold wants a nice selection of each of these elements. It makes sense of course. The game thrives on the interactions between cards; a deck of pure vanilla creatures is not a fun deck. I can guarantee that the deck of pure vanilla creatures will perform more consistently than a deck with more interactions between cards. I’m not trying to suggest Threshold is a poor deck by any means; it’s not, I think we can all agree quite easily on that. However, I can guarantee Discard, in comparison to the rest of the legacy field, needs to mulligan less often and will perform more consistently because of its simple game plan: make them discard there hand, lay down a kill condition and stay alive while the attrition builds up. (This will no doubt draw me several flames… for the moment forgive me any glaring generalities.)

The Mulligan - Discard forces your opponent to keep poor hands. You have no idea how many times I’ve smiled as I watch my opponent drop to five cards not realizing he’s actually helping me win by doing so. It is simply amazing how much a single card difference increases your chance of winning. Discard works off of card advantage. Quite bluntly put, your opponent cannot afford to mulligan a merely sub-optimal hand in hopes of something better. Discard effectively reduces the ability of other decks to perform optimally even before turn 1. I’ve observed that in tournament play, players tend to mulligan more aggressively. I would guess this in part simply because higher caliber players understand the value of doing so. Taking a mulligan against Discard is seldom the right decision.

Role You Play - As mentioned earlier, Discard has a simple game plan. It very, very seldom differs. Discard your opponents hand, lay down a kill, sit back and hold on to the reigns ‘til someone dies. Because of this it is an easy deck to pick up and learn. Of course becoming effective with it is actually much harder as you need to know the rest of the decks in your meta-game to appropriately choose (when you have a choice) which card to make them discard. In addition, Discard lets you see your opponent’s hand (a bit more on this later). Knowing how to respond and which play is the right play is an advantage often overlooked.

Cost - Finally, if you’re budget conscious, Discard is so very cheap to put together.


Classic Mono B


Below I’ve included a basic skeleton for your classic mono-B Discard builds. It has an excellent curve, and the fundamental cards to any Discard build. I’ve taken the liberty to include Wrench Mind (2 for 1 is hard to go wrong with); and Nezumi Shortfang (another rack effect?! count me in). I hardly consider these cards controversial in a build like this. Flame away if you feel the need, I’ll bring up points more worthy of discussion later in this post.
1-Drops (16)
4x Dark Ritual
4x Duress
4x The Rack
4x Cabal Therapy / Blackmail
2-Drops (13)
4x Hymn to Tourach
2x Wrench Mind
3x Nezumi Shortfang
4x Black Spot Removal
3-Drops (4)
4x Hypnotic Specter
Land (19)
19x Swamp

This skeleton numbers 52 cards in total leaving 8 more filler slots to round out a more classic build of mono-B Discard. I’ve since moved away from this skeleton, but I consider it effective nonetheless. Now to discuss some possible considerations…


Viable Options

Ravenous Rats / Corrupt Court Official - These cards are the epitome of card advantage (or close enough, so sue me). They discard one card and you get a 1/1 for two mana. These two really shine in the aggro match-up where you need the blockers. The real question in my opinion, is how many to run. They are also one of the few creatures you’re willing to sacrifice for the recurrence of Cabal Therapy.

More Spot Removal (Diabolic Edict / Smother / Spinning Darkness / Terror) - Discard’s inescapable problem is dealing with what hits the board. Something devoted to removing your problems is imperative. The number of spot removal spells however is highly debatable. I’m personally a fan of Funeral Charm as it has multiple uses and is an excellent answer to a first turn Goblin Lackey. If you’re running a white splash (more on this later) then Vindicate is an auto-include simply for its versatility. One of black’s weaknesses is dealing with enchantments and artifacts. Luckily Discard typically has less problems with this than other mono-B variations as you can pick the problems out of their hand before they end up in play.

Infest / Damnation - Aggro match-ups are Discard’s hard match-ups. Early sweepers are an excellent and generic answer. Some would recommend them main-deck. I personally advocate them for the sideboard. They work two ways, and none of your creatures will survive even an Infest.

Megrim - A late game kill which provides an excellent catch-22 when paired with The Rack. In my early versions I ran Megrim. It seems that inevitably every fan of Discard tries it out. Don’t… it comes out too late to really matter. Trust me, you opponent isn’t going to attempt to build there hand back up with the number of discard effects you’re running. Instead, they’ll opt to race you by casting every spell they can on their turn. What about combo decks like Solidarity which seek to sculpt their hand, you ask? Discard steam rolls these decks. Don’t bother devoting a spot to a highly positive match-up, and if you do, Megrim isn’t the card anyways.

Card Draw (Night’s Whisper / Skeletal Scrying) - Discard burns out pretty quickly. It really could use a little card draw. I’ve considered a number of draw effects, but have been unsatisfied with these two in particular. Which brings me to…

Dark Confidant - The inclusion of this card has plagued me for sometime. It provides much needed draw, though I’d still prefer a tutor rather than draw in Discard. Really you pretty much just want The Rack after you’ve obliterated their hand. Dark Confidant doesn’t guarantee this. He does stay alive remarkably well, because they’re stuck top-decking for removal. And if they do target him, then they’re not targeting Hypnotic Specter or Nezumi Shortfang - woot! However, he costs you life. And in a deck that doesn’t kill quickly, this matters. I’ve alluded a couple times that Discard falls to a war of attrition. Dark Confidant doesn’t help your life; does the card draw gained make up for this? In my current build (which I’ll unveil later on) I don’t think so. However, in a more classic build of Discard, with a slightly more explosive start including Dark Ritual I could see him finding his way into a deck.

Cursed Scroll – Because Discard burns out quickly, and because it has a difficult aggro match-up I found myself using Curse Scroll for a very long time. It provides late game reach, an answer to pro-black dudes, and helps immensely against weenies. I’ve even thought of pairing it with the classic combo Ensnaring Bridge. I haven’t been able to test it with Ensnaring Bridge yet, and I would like to see some results though it would require some major changes to the deck. I found Cursed Scroll to be quite good in the blue splash I’ll discuss later. And again, I ran it for the majority of the time I’ve played Discard. More recently I’ve cut it because it requires you to drop to a single card to be really effective. This is somewhat contrary to the idea of Discard operating off of card-advantage. Ideally by the time you’re down to a single card your opponent has no hand. In addition, I’ve reverted from a blue splash to a mono-B build and the lack of a good tutor has dissuaded me from running Cursed Scroll in multiple slots. I’d much rather have those spots devoted to else. However, I do recommend testing this out to find what conclusion you come to.

A word on Wasteland / Sinkhole - Often I see these two cards added to the Discard disruption package. I believe this to be a mistake. I admit that if you end up with the right balance of discard, land destruction, and removal, then you have a deadly package. But getting a hand with the right balance of all those is a near impossibility. Play Pox if you’re interested in this problem. In Discard, Wasteland and Sinkhole are unnecessary. Attacking their hand with the spots you would otherwise dedicate to land destruction is more effective when the rest of your deck is dedicated to this strategy. Let them lay down their lands and go for the spells. I often find myself saving my Hymn to Tourach for when they’ve dropped just one more land, so I know I’m hitting the good stuff.


Splash Variant - B/u


Below I’ve listed the cards I feel are necessary in a blue splash. Other options are open, but I haven’t run across anything essential beyond the following:
2x Dimir Cutpurse
4x Trinket Mage
1x Cursed Scroll
1x Pithing Needle
1x Zuran Orb

Dimir Cutpurse - I was only running 2 to keep my mana curve low as possible. This guy is Hypnotic Specter 5 and 6... oh, and card draw. He doesn't have the evasion of Hypnotic Specter, a point against him. However his ability is too good to pass up. (As a side note, I’d recommend running a tad more removal in the B/u build. You’re focus is a bit more on the creature war, and the spot removal really helps.)

Trinket Mage - This is the impetus for my consideration of running B/u. Discard can be noticeably low on threats, and black’s lack of a good available tutor brought me to other colors. Trinket Mage is a body to block whatever they set on the table, and it lets you find The Rack, which is your best kill in my opinion. He also has other uses, for instance…

Cursed Scroll / Pithing Needle / Zuran Orb - When you’re running Trinket Mage you can afford a small tool box. I heartily endorse Cursed Scroll as it helps your aggro/weenie match-up considerably (especially post turn 4 when Discard tends to titter out). Pithing Needle is generically hot; you’ll find a use for it somehow. Zuran Orb has been a late inclusion that I’m quite happy with. Most of my games (especially when facing aggro) end up racing my opponent for the last few points. Buying a turn or two as The Rack finishes them off is a worthwhile investment for all those late land draws.

Of the colors to splash in discard, blue comes as a natural choice. Through extensive testing I feel confident in stating it is the best splash as well. The blue splash offers a better long game than mono-B builds. However, while I see a lot of potential for the B/u splash, it contains several general draw backs which mono-B build’s lack.

First, by adding a second color, you dilute your mana-base and open yourself up to wasteland. This reduces the consistency with which discard performs, which is one of the main strengths of the deck and a prime reason to play it. The number of time’s you mulligan increases substantially. With discard, you’re searching for card-advantage and anytime you mulligan you’re starting in the hole. To reiterate (and hopefully drive the point home), discard loves to see your opponent mulligan as just a single card makes your job tremendously easier. Also, the added blue cards are at the top of your curve and require an additional land or two while slowing the deck’s tempo. This reduction in consistency and slow in tempo are hard to compare to a mono-B build over just a few games. Test it out if you feel inclined. Like I said, I think potential lurks, but I’ve reverted back to mono-B. I’d really like to see someone evolve this idea however.


Splash Variants - B/w and B/r

Originally I was going to discuss the white and red splash in some depth. However, it can pretty easily be summarized, and as this is a long post, I’ll forego any in-depth discussion.

The white splash is primarily for the inclusion of Vindicate and Gerrard’s Verdict. Suffice to say, it ends up looking quite similar to Pikula’s Homebrew. As you tweak the deck more, you’ll eventually find that it becomes a sad version of Homebrew and eventually you’ll just revert to Homebrew or give up entirely.

The red splash is very similar. With each change you’ll find yourself stepping closer and closer to Red Death. This isn’t a bad thing, Homebrew and Red Death are obviously excellent decks. The red and white splashes just aren’t pure discard. They end up using discard as a tool for disruption while pushing some other game plan through.


My Revised Mono B


Whew… now to the part I really love. This is my deck in its current form. I’ve been working on it, well just about forever. This is the real reason I think Discard can be a competitive deck in Legacy - though I still consider the other builds I listed as viable contenders to explore and develop.

Edited 5/17 to include FS
1-Drops (24)
4x Duress
4x Ostracize
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Funeral Charm
4x Reanimate
4x The Rack
2-Drop (14)
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Augur of Skulls
3x Nezumi Shortfang
3x Infernal Tutor
Other (4)
2x Tombstalker
1x Zuran Orb
1x Ensnaring Bridge
Land (18)
18x Swamp


Why I Like This Build

It’s fast, blazingly fast. Your tempo is quicker than anything that doesn’t include mana acceleration. The speed of the deck allows you to compete adequately with aggro. Whether to play or draw first is one of the more difficult choices is when facing aggro. On the one hand you want to snatch their threats before the hit the board, and it’s quite possible to do so with this speed. On the other hand, the extra card from the draw provides that much more card-advantage. It really depends on the aggro-deck you’re facing. Against control, always draw. Against combo, it matters so little. :)

This build, more than any other is amazingly consistent. I listed this as one of Discard’s strengths to begin with. I mulligan less with this deck than anything else; and since my opponent really can’t afford to mulligan, it adds up quickly.

Finally, games are swift and exciting (at least from my end). You play aggressive as can be early on: wipe their hand, throw down a threat, then try to ride that threat to their end. Usually it’s a race to the finish with The Rack or Hypnotic Specter biting away at them as they build up threats which you just don’t have enough removal to deal with.


Card Choice

Dark Ritual - I removed it. How could I? Believe me, it was a long, hard, and very difficult choice. There is nothing like Dark Ritual; it can just plain win you games on the back of a first turn Hypnotic Specter. It trades tempo for card advantage. This has always bothered me to a small extent. Discard is all about having that card advantage. Of course on the back of a Hypnotic Specter you can make up that advantage in a couple of turns. So why did I do it? 1) Most importantly, the removal of Dark Ritual adds consistency to the deck. It’s difficult to realize the effect of its absence in comparison to it stealing games for you, but over as many games as I’ve played, it’s become quite apparent. 2) With the low mana-curve I’m running, Dark Ritual is less necessary. 3) A turn 1 Hypnotic Specter is seldom the correct play. Most every deck runs an answer to turn 1 Goblin Lackey. Most of these answers are functional against Hypnotic Specter as well. More appropriate is to ensure they’ve discarded their removal, then seal the game with Hypnotic Specter on turn 3. You want them top-decking for their answer. 4) Dark Ritual has little to no use if it’s not in your opening hand. Drawing into one later on is fruitless with this build. You don’t run something like Nantuko Shade to pump the extra mana into. As a last nod, I would reconsider my dropping of Dark Ritual in a classic mono-B build like the one mentioned above.

Ostracize/Reanimate - Legacy is the creature format. This makes the inclusion of Ostracize a worthy consideration. In time I saw it was, more often than not, my best turn 1 play. Ostracize allows four more effects which let you see your opponents hand. When you can rely on seeing your opponents hand on turn 1 or 2 of every game, it really adds up. In addition, because Legacy is the creature format, you’re often stealing cards that are just as worthwhile as anything you’d take with Duress. Hymn to Tourach and Duress have long been considered definitively the best discard spells in the game (accepting Mind Twist). This is primarily because discard serves as disruption package to push some other game plan through in most decks. However a deck built around removing their entire hand acts a bit differently. A Discard deck seeks to keep anything from hitting the table and because of this Ostracize is typically your better first play. I became even more convinced of this when I began running Reanimate. The two of these combined were the impetus for creating my current build. Stealing their most lethal creature turn 1, then taking their removal away via Duress or Cabal Therapy and using Reanimate to drop that lethal creature into play on turn 2 is game-breaking. Reanimate also serves quite well to ensure your Hypnotic Specter or Nezumi Shortfang push through the last bits of damage you need to finish them.

Dark Confidant - I didn’t include him… again a very hard choice. He would make an excellent Reanimate target also. But for the same reasons I questioned his use before, I remain questioning now. The life loss does stack up quickly. In addition, Dark Ritual was quite useful to fuel him out on turn 2 or 3 with a Ravenous Rats or another discard effect in the classic build. He seems to have even less of a place now.

Spinning Darkness - It is my preferred removal. With the low mana-curve, you usually have the option to use this card turn 2 (providing another answer to Goblin Lackey if they’re on the draw). Being able to target a problem creature, in addition to the life gain it provides, has swayed me to use this over other spot removal.


Final Questions

I know this is bound to come up, so I’ll try to address it now. One of your worst match-ups is the Tier-1 deck which sees more play than any other in Legacy. They’re quick, they have a way to replenish their hand, they have too many threats for a few spot removal spells to effectively deal with - how in the hell do you deal with Goblins?! My answer: quite well actually. I’ve played this match-up more than any other by at least four-fold. It’s a hell of a lot of fun. There’s no question about it, Goblins has the better game 1. That doesn’t mean they auto-win. You have a sufficient number of answers to counter Goblin Lackey. Just make sure Goblin Ringleader never sees play and pray they don’t draw into him, and you’ll do fine. Your sideboard should be crammed with anti-aggro tools. Engineered Plague + Infest + whatever else you might have. This is sufficient to swing this match-up notably in your favor game 2 and 3. In my experience Goblins is less of a problem (especially post-board) than decks along the lines of San Diego Zoo or Faerie Stompy (God forbid they get a Chalice of the Void operating).

[Zilla]

Have you considered Unearth over Reanimate? Unearth will recur every threat in your deck. I recognize it is somewhat less versatile when using it on your opponent's creatures, but it's important to consider that about 90% of the creatures most commonly played in the format are, in fact, 3cc or less. This is true of Goblins, Faerie Stompy, Fish, Sui variants, Zoo, Thresh, and most other aggro you can think of. Exceptions include RGSA and Angel Stompy, but in most cases they're going to make up far less of the field than these other decks.

The reason I suggest Unearth is for two reasons: 1) Reanimate's life loss can really cost you when trying to win damage races against aggro. 2) Unearth can be cycled into useful cards when playing against decks without creatures.

Also, have you considered running a couple of Cabal Pits? You build Thresh rather quickly, and it seems like a real boon against aggro decks. It opens you up a bit to Wasteland, but I suspect it will win more games than it loses.

[TorpidNinja]

Have you considered Unearth over Reanimate? Unearth will recur every threat in your deck. I recognize it is somewhat less versatile when using it on your opponent's creatures, but it's important to consider that about 90% of the creatures most commonly played in the format are, in fact, 3cc or less. This is true of Goblins, Faerie Stompy, Fish, Sui variants, Zoo, Thresh, and most other aggro you can think of. Exceptions include RGSA and Angel Stompy, but in most cases they're going to make up far less of the field than these other decks.

The reason I suggest Unearth is for two reasons: 1) Reanimate's life loss can really cost you when trying to win damage races against aggro. 2) Unearth can be cycled into useful cards when playing against decks without creatures.

Also, have you considered running a couple of Cabal Pits? You build Thresh rather quickly, and it seems like a real boon against aggro decks. It opens you up a bit to Wasteland, but I suspect it will win more games than it loses.
Unearth can only target creatures in your own graveyard.

[Cavius The Great]

As for the original decklist, Bog Down is amazing. It's really something to consider. My friend plays it in his discard deck and he likes it alot.

[Cait_Sith]

As for the original decklist, Bog Down is amazing. It's really something to consider. My friend plays it in his discard deck and he likes it alot.

With 18 lands in his list and 19 in the original build Bog Down often becomes an expensive and weak Hymn to Tourach or 0 card advantage and possibly tempo disadvantage. On the other hand I love Dark Ritual for its explosive power in a deck like this.

Edit: Chains of Mephistopheles is great SB Tech against any deck with large amounts of card drawing. Imagine popping their Standstills with Chains in play. Yes, it has happened.

[Cavius The Great]

With 18 lands in his list and 19 in the original build Bog Down often becomes an expensive and weak Hymn to Tourach or 0 card advantage and possibly tempo disadvantage. On the other hand I love Dark Ritual for its explosive power in a deck like this.

Edit: Chains of Mephistopheles is great SB Tech against any deck with large amounts of card drawing. Imagine popping their Standstills with Chains in play. Yes, it has happened.

My friend's build ran around 22 land, so Bog Down was a reasonable choice. Discarding 3 cards by the second or third turn is simply amazing. Losing land shouldn't be much of an issue considering both the mana curve and land count. Bog Down also helps you achieve threshold quicker if you plan on ever running Cabal Pit.

EDIT: Bog Down isn't great against control, but it's amazing against aggro in general. I would definitely side them out in any deck packing counters.

[JohnnyCage]

Pox would help against aggro matchup and also would be a discard engine while lowering land count.

[Androstanolone]

I love discard, it's just so mean sometimes. But it can putter out though. Below are just some of my thoughts.

Smallpox + Cry of Contrition = combo.

Cry + removal = combo

Of course this would sway the deck in favor of fewer creatures. Personally I think hypnotic specter is too slow in a deck with only 18 lands and no rituals. Shortfang can be good, but seems slow too. I'd run 4x dark confidant and 4x ravenous rats as my creature base. I'd cut reanimate for cry of contrition and add 4x smallpox. Smallpox is much-needed LD to cut them off from their spells a bit longer.

Adding in confidant makes spinning darkness a bit scary, so I'd have to replace those with vicious hungers. I'd cut one other card to fit in the full 4-of hungers.

With smallpox power I think the deck becomes even better suited against aggro and with confidant advantage gains some power against control/combo. Hippie usually ends up as burn-fodder or goes 1-for-1 blocking with a weenie, which is not optimal at 3cc. Against control you don't have the ritual that makes him so savage. Shortfang costs mana to operate and doesn't do anything till next turn, rav rats happen now.

These are just my thoughts and where it feels natural to take the deck to me. Obviously you've tested a ton more. I'd just like to emphasize the power of confidant advantage in a deck with such a low mana curve and life gain (hunger). I'd also like to impress upon you the savageness of smallpox with someone sacrificing a cried creature.

Good luck and have fun!

[Androstanolone]

I forgot to mention that shortfang = 3/3 The Rack when he flips, which is freakin' awesome. So he's really tempting. Maybe better than confidant in this deck.

[Galroth]

Unearth versus Reanimate - I chose to run Reanimate because of the reason Torpid Ninja stated. It can target creatures in your opponents graveyard. This is a vast improvement in the aggro match-up over Unearth. The turn 1 Ostracize or a turn 2 Hymn to Tourach followed by Reanimate on one of their creatures is typical. Discard's creatures are all pretty weak when it comes to power/toughness. Grabbing their best tends to be better. I have many fond memories of a Goblin's player staring at his own Siege-Gang Commander. That play incidentally almost always leads to a win. Later on you tend to target your own creatures as you're getting in the last little bit of reach to finish them. You run so few creatures that seeing the Nezumi Shortfang or your Hypnotic Specter a second time will seal the game. I do like Unearth against the combo matches more, and most control matches where they're not running some massive beater for their kill. But since these deck arch-types are in your favor, I give a little more focus to aggro. Admittedly the life loss from Reanimate can hurt quite a bit. More often than not, the creature you've used Reanimate on more than makes up for it though.

Bog Down - It scares me. I haven't tested it. You could very well be right that it's amazing. It still scares me. Maybe in a deck that runs 21 or 22 lands, but I'm pretty land light to begin with. I'm kinda surprised you don't opt for a Wrench Mind or something a little less, well painful.

Chains of Mephistopheles - Yeah, it's sweet sideboard tech. It pretty much seals your control match-up. I haven't discussed sideboard at all, nor do I intend to anytime soon. But I allocate typically 10-12 spots against aggro. Chains of Mephistopheles would be one of my first choices for the remaining spots however. It is great against control and combo. Damn it's price! There goes your budget deck :P.

Pox - I like Pox. I like it alot, but I think you need a deck designed to synergize with for it to be truly good. I can pretty much guarentee the lifeloss will hurt you more than them in the aggro match-up. Against combo and control it could find a spot, but is it needed? I wrote a bit on why I didn't include land destruction in discard. I exclude Pox for pretty much the same reasons. Land screwing them is less important because you want to grab their spells first. While it does remove their spells, often you don't net any sort of card advantage because your expending a card (Pox), and your handsize is usually larger than theirs. Also, you want your land and your creatures in play to stay in play. You run very few of each, and they are pretty important. In addition, Pox would be at the top of my mana-curve, I wouldn't main-deck it and I think you can find better stuff for your sideboard.

@ Androstanolone - Wow. That's alot of changes and it wouldn't be fair for me to evaluate a single card without taking into account the rest of the changes.

I considered Cry of Contrition for awhile but ultimately decided not to run it because I seldom have a good target for the haunt effect. It is a 2 for 1, which I'm all about. But it tends to not make a good turn 1 play for the reason I stated above. In addition, the majorty of my 1 drops allow you to choose the card and see the persons hand, or also act as removal (Funeral Charm). Cry of Contrition lets them choose what card to discard. Disallowing them that choice on turn 1 or 2 is pretty important to me.

Smallpox - I like it more than Pox in Discard. You do lose 2 cards in hand for 1 of theirs, but it also clears much of what has hit the board first or second turn. Optimally Discard wants a clear board with as few cards in the opponent's hand as possible. Smallpox is an admirable step in that direction, but I'm not sure if it's good enough. The land destruction I don't think is that important, in particular because they're allowed the choice of which land to destroy. It's less likely to mana-screw them than a number of other effects, and since I don't have any other land destruction effects, I tend to disregard it. What else would you pair with Smallpox to make it more effective? A more general question might be, does land destruction deserve a spot in Discard? I'm of the opinion it doesn't, but it seems many would disagree.

Dark Confidant - Verdict is still out. I'd like to hear more of what people think and also how they'd alter a build to incorporate him. I do like Dark Confidant in the blue splash. The inclusion of Zuran Orb mitigates any life loss. Since the blue splash slows its tempo and consistency for a better late game, the inclusion of Dark Confidant seemed warranted to this tactic.

Nezumi Shortfang - He's hot. A rack effect, a 3/3 bod, and a continuous way to make them discard til the rack effect kicks in... hot all over. His problems are that he comes online a bit slow. You don't want him as your turn 2 or even 3 play. In addition, I think Nezumi Shortfang is a poorer win condition than The Rack because creature removal is more common than artifact removal. They are top-decking for an answer, so this factor is less important than in most games, however it still has merit. Because I don't want to see multiples in my opening hand I dropped him to 3. I'd even be willing to drop him to 2 or quite possible remove him if I have a way to tutor for The Rack (as I do in the blue splash). He's a fairly solid include otherwise.

I like the discussion this has generated so far. Keep tossing out ideas people, it's given me a few new ideas as well. I'll let them fester for a bit before I make further remarks. I'm really interested in trying out Cabal Pits.

[Clark Kant]

I really love the idea for this deck. I tested it breifly (wound up replacing Hypnotic Specter with Smallpox) and it's an absolute blast to play. Thank you for developing it.

I do think some of the suggestions posted here are very good though.

For one, I agree with some of the feedback here that Hypnotic Specter is too slow without ritual.

It will be turn four at the earliest before it makes your opponent discard a card. By then, often, your oppoents don't have any cards left to discard.

Land destruction is I think potent in this deck not just to try to mana screw them, but to create a big tempo loss for them. Think about the effect of destroying your opponents turn two land for example. Combined with your discard, that could be enough to mana screw them. But more likely, it will make it much harder for them to play out their hand before having to discard it. Also, by cutting away your opponents mana, you make it so they can't just play out whatever they draw (making every discard spell except for Funeral Charm that you run, a dead card) when they inevitably enter topdeck mode, because they just don't have the mana for it.

Smallpox is very potent as it's land destruction, creature kill (fills the same role as spinning darkness) and discard (does same function as Ravenous Rats) all three of which are extremely important to this deck. It's a great answer to turn one lackey when you're on the play. Plus most of your deck is just 1cc anyway so you don't even need to draw another land after smallpox. The deck is practically begging to run the card IMO. Sinkhole might be worth it as well, but I'm not sure.

I'm not sure how I like Ravenous Rats here, the 1/1 body doesn't do anything, so it's just a 2 cc sorcery speed funeral charm. It seems like the deck might benefit from a nice fat undercosted beater to quickly finish your opponent off after your wave of disruption before they can attempt to recover, or atleast stabilize versus a creature horde while the Rack finishes them off. Choices here include Dark Confidant (not much of a beater), Rotting Giant, Negator, or Jotun Grunt if you opt to splash White for Gerrard's Verdict.

And I really love Reanimate. It's a huge bomb against aggro. They will only be able to cast their small low casting cost threats and end up discarding away fat. So you do nutty things. When I played versus Zilla Stompy, I was able to Reanimate an Iwamori of Open Fist turn three, and my opponents hand is near empty and all they have in play is a land and a llanowar elf because of your second turn small pox killing their taiga and kird ape.

Reanimate is such a strong card against aggro, that I want to see 2 every game in that matchup. So perhaps a card similar to Reanimate should be played in the sideboard.

Also, the deck needs a cooler name IMO. May I suggest Idle Hand, as in, "an idle hand is the devil's plaything." Plus it shares it's name with the movie that introduced Jessica Alba to the world. How can you beat that?

For reference, here's what I wound up with based on my testing and reading some of the feedback here...

Idle Hand

4 Duress
4 Ostracize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Funeral Charm
4 Cry of Contrition
4 Reanimate
4 The Rack
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Nezumi Shortfang
3 Rotting Giant
2x Cabal Pit
15x Swamp

I'm not suggesting that this is optimal by anymeans, just giving you some food for thought.

I think I favor Rotting Giant over Dark Confidant since you don't have an awful lot you want to draw into. You empty their hand and emptied yours. They'll just play out whatever they draw and try to recover and each discard spell you draw, sans Funeral Charm is a dead draw. Time is against you, so a card to supplement The Rack and Shortfang in the damage race, as well as something that can also trade with or overpower any threat they may topdeck seems good.

As for sideboard possibilities, the below cards look strong...
Chains of Mephistoptles
Spinning Darkness
Animate Dead
Ensnaring Bridge

[Androstanolone]

Clark's a pretty sharp guy, in particular about dark confidant. I was thinking it over and I realized why it's a difficult choice, when it really shouldn't. It's basically what he said. In a pure discard deck dark confidant is actually pretty terrible. You basically refill your hand with more discard when your opponent's lucky to even have a hand. In a deck with more varied disruption, like pikula, confidant is amazing. They're hand size isn't gone but they're stumbling because of mana issues or being stripped of essential cards (via duress/vindicate or even jotun grunt). Confidant just keeps them stumbling while ALSO placing them on a clock. In this comparison it becomes obvious that Pikula is truly an aggro/control deck whereas discard functions a lot like a combo deck. Confidant is a (relatively) slow aggro/control card and thus doesn't belong.

Galroth has basically already realized all this and is building his deck to take advantage of itsfast comboish nature with as many 1cc discards as possible and no dedicated card draw/long game engine. This was the correct way to go and maximizes his deck's strategy and synergy. However, as has been mentioned, hypnotic specter may not be the right way to go anymore since ritual is out. Remember to focus on cheap, fast, and potent. Not on slowly tapping them to death with a 2/2 flier.

In this vein reanimate is an excellent choice because it can enable incredibly fast wins and biases the deck to win against its most unfavorable matchup. Nezumi shortfang, also, is an excellent choice. This may seem counterintuitive because I said it required mana to operate before. But when it kicks in it's a VERY fast win. Swings for 3 and a built in rack. For 2 mana. Hippie costs 3 and will always be a 10 turn clock. Nez pulls double duty, discarding extra cards in case you got a spell-light draw, then when it's *exactly* the right time, becomes the scary win condition of doom.

I'll comment more in a bit, just got a call and I have to run! I like the discussion too, keep it rollin'.

[Clark Kant]

Thanks Andro. I agree with you on all counts and I think you were right on the money with Smallpox and Cry of Contrition.

I love Shortfang, which is why I upped the count to 4.

Let me know if you get around to giving the build I posted a spin. I would love to get some feedback on perfecting it.

[troopatroop]

Discard is a failing archtype because the plan that it hopes to achieve is the very thing that it loses to. What do you do against a Mystic Enforcer off the top? Race it? With Specter, Rack and Shortfang? What does card advantage mean when it's a hand of discard and your opponent is in topdeck mode? Nothing. They're all dead cards. And your topdeck mode is awful because every single discard spell is dead. How do you put up a fight against goblins at all? If you want to win, play Dark Confidant and some sort of bomb. Play Persecute or something, but in general, you're not going to have many positive matchups against anything but Solidarity and the like.

Post 1000. W00t.

[Zilla]

Discard is a failing archtype because the plan that it hopes to achieve is the very thing that it loses to. What do you do against a Mystic Enforcer off the top? Race it? With Specter, Rack and Shortfang? What does card advantage mean when it's a hand of discard and your opponent is in topdeck mode? Nothing. They're all dead cards. And your topdeck mode is awful because every single discard spell is dead. How do you put up a fight against goblins at all? If you want to win, play Dark Confidant and some sort of bomb. Play Persecute or something, but in general, you're not going to have many positive matchups against anything but Solidarity and the like.
This is, unfortunately, quite true. Sure, you can get your opponent to 0 cards by turn 4, but you're not disrupting their manabase and you have no way to stop them from topdecking into a game-winning threat. In order for a strategy like this to be successful it has to have a very significant clock to back its disruption strategy. Rotting Giant is perhaps a step in the right direction, but it's not likely to be enough.

Theoretically something like Tombstalker (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=45284&d=1175839188) might work, since it provides a solid clock and is likely to resolve somewhere around turn 4, which is right around the time you'll be losing steam. It's worth consideration.

[The Lotus Eater]

Almost any mono-black control deck should at least look into the option of including Nantuko Shade. He's cheap to cast and does a ton of damage.

Also, I think maindeck mass removal is something that needs to be included to have any type of game VS goblins or any other type of similar aggro deck. Infest, Mutilate, or Damnation are all contenders for this spot (Engineered Plauge, also?). Then, if you're adding mass removal, I think a few Mishra's Factories could be good since it sticks around after you cast your board sweeper.

Speaking of the manabase, Wasteland almost seems like an auto-include, allowing you to disrupt your opponent's lands for for free. Yes, it might prevent your opponent from casting spells and trimming their hand down and potentially take less damage from The Rack, but in this deck you generally want to take control first and then go for the kill. Also, if I had to choose how cards came out of my opponent's hands, I would choose making them dicard the cards, not letting them play out their hand.

And of course, if you decide to run Wasteland and Mishra's Factory, a few Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth's can clear up the colored mana issues.

[Galroth]

Discard is a failing archtype because the plan that it hopes to achieve is the very thing that it loses to. What do you do against a Mystic Enforcer off the top? Race it? With Specter, Rack and Shortfang? What does card advantage mean when it's a hand of discard and your opponent is in topdeck mode? Nothing. They're all dead cards. And your topdeck mode is awful because every single discard spell is dead. How do you put up a fight against goblins at all? If you want to win, play Dark Confidant and some sort of bomb. Play Persecute or something, but in general, you're not going to have many positive matchups against anything but Solidarity and the like.
@ Troopatroop - Discard is a failing archtype... While I can't disagree with this statement, I'll disagree with every reason you offered to support it.

The plan discard hopes to achieve is the very reason the deck is so versatile against the field. It doesn't care whether it's creatures, or instants, or artifacts. Same game plan and it's damn efficient. Of the last build I posted, 16 cards are solely dedicated to discard when your opponent is in topdeck mode. I suppose you could consider those 16 cards dead cards, if by dead you mean they ensure The Rack or Nezumi Shortfang is pushing through 3 damage every turn. I might suppose they're considered dead too when you're forcing your opponent to cast whatever he draws every turn because it's pointless to save it. Should I even add in the obvious consideration that it is these cards which are the reason they're top decking while I most likely have a small hand left? I won't deny they lose their value after your opponent is in topdeck mode, but dead? Hardly.

As for what do I do when my opponent topdecks a Mystic Enforcerer... race it? Damn right, I race it. Whether my opponent topdecks a Mystic Enforcerer or a Swords to Plowshares I race it. It's a rough life racing the luck of a topdeck. Consider this instead. What's the likelihood I have a Reanimate in my opening hand? Same probability that they have a Mystic Enforcerer (if they happen to run a playset). What's more likely then? Me using Reanimate on their Mystic Enforcer or them topdecking the Mystic Enforcer over their next 6 draws... if they live for their next 6 draws. If their running Mystic Enforcer I'm fucking ecstatic. The probability is it will never see or play, or if it does, it will be facing them down on the back of Reanimate. It's the small multitude of creatures that Discard has issue with.

Your quip about Goblins has more merit than anything else you brought up. Lets assume they don't mulligan. Lets assume they have the nuts draw. Lets assume you haven't brought in 10-12 cards of hate from your sideboard (yet). What happens? Well, they lose their nuts draw by turn 2 and their turn 4 kill becomes a 6-8 at best. They are without cards by turn 4 unless they draw Goblin Ringleader. Likely they have between 2-4 gobbos on the table and you're removal can only takes care of 1-2 of these. You race. What the hell else are you gonna do. It's not like you auto-lose though. From experience I can pretty much guarentee that if you see double rack effects, you'll win. If you topdeck more removal than usual, you've got excellent chances. If you Reanimate a Siege-Gang Commander you're heavily favored. We'll ignore game 2 and 3.

Discard is a failing archtype because it's typically an unrefined deck played by your local scrub with little to no experience. My initial post was designed to show Discard may have the potential to compete in the legacy environment. The whole point of this forum is to evolve the deck 'til we find this is either utterly impossible, or 'til it does become a contender in the current environment.

If you're going to post in this thread, please keep it constructive and do not tell me how I'm not going to achieve positive matchups against anything but Solidarity and the like 'til you've tested it.

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To more worthwhile discussion:

Tombstalker - This card is sweet! I should have thought about it's inclusion when I first read about it. Zilla, sweet find. I think it'll probably find it's way in eventually. I'm giddy to test it out a bit. My immediate thoughts are to run it as a 3 of (my general rule is to drop to 3 when I don't really want to see multiples in my first couple turns). It may be good enough to warrant a full set though. Thoughts?

@ Androstanolone - I like your analysis of why Dark Confidant doesn't make the cut. You put into words quite well how I feel about the matter. You've convinced me it doesn't deserve a spot that much more. Thanks.

Cry of Contrition - How it working for you guys? Adding it in seems to allow you to drop to 17 lands safely. I like this. I like even more that it is a 2 for 1. How often are you actually seeing it 2 for 1 though? It does combo with Smallpox well, but are you running enough removal, or creatures you're willing to haunt with Cry of Contrition that you typically see these results? I'm still a little skeptical.

Hypnotic Specter - He's so hard to cut. I see the reasons why. He comes online a little slow. But he, paired with Nezumi Shortfang give you a bit more of a late game that you don't otherwise have. They can ensure your opponent will discard every turn without relent.

@Clark Kant - I'm interested to hear more about your build and what you do with it. It looks good. I'm worried that you're weak on kill conditions. Ravenous Rats and Hypnotic Specter both helped this, even if they are a little slow. I would rather have a larger beater, but I had not found anything I was really satisfied with. Skittering Skirge was a thought, Nantuko Shade also. Nantuko Shade didn't make the cut because you really don't have enough mana to make him real effective, even late game. Skittering Skirge... well his drawback was just too much. Again, I'm excited to see how Tombstalker could workout. He's an easy replacement for Rotting Giant in my opinion.

I'd like to hear more about your results with Smallpox and Cry of Contrition, plus any theory for backing them. I'm not going to have much time this coming week to test much, but I'd like to try to form an opinion nonetheless.

[Iranon]

Nice to see that other people haven't given up on the archetype. I play it mostly for nostalgia reasons, but I think it's borderline viable.

I totally agree with the exclusion of Sinkhole; you don't want to bend over backwards to get a second disruption angle.
Smallpox + Wasteland is an option; would make sense to run both if you want either. Enough Land Destruction to become a factor, both do something else.



Idle Hand seems aptly named for that build... 20 spells that do nothing but make an opponent discard, in addition to the double duty ones ? While I can see how Reanimate would mitigate some of the problems, that still seems excessive.



The original build is already close to nostalgia.dec, but why am I not seeing any Black Knights? First Strike is invaluable against weenies, and Protection from White seems useful for more than stopping Swords to Plowshares. Many cheap oversized beatsticks are white: Jötun Grunt, Watchwolf, most useful Slivers.
Funeral Charm allows it to take out Care Bears. The things it can't handle shouldn't see play before the game is over anyway.

[Top Deck]

It is funny seeing how discard can quickly shift closer to a pox variant. The inclusion of sinkhole, small pox, and pox.

I had a budget build of pox which you might consider as a framework for discard.

deck:pox on a budget
//discard and creature kill
4 hymn to tourach
4 wrench mind
2 bottomless pit
4 necrogen mists
4 pox
4 smallpox
3 innocent blood

//kill engine
1 genju of the fens
4 the rack
2 haakon, stromgald scourge
3 Knight of Stromgald

//mana accel
4 dark ritual
1 crucible of worlds

//land
1 mishra's factory
1 cabal pit
2 wasteland
15 swamp
1 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth


That was the original shell I had for a budget pox deck. It could easily fit in Reanimate, Duress, Short-Fang, etc. The hard part about the deck is getting the right ratios of certain cards to other cards without drawing too many dead topdecks in mid to late game.

Of course the problem with this approach to discard is that you are mostly maintaining 1 for 1's. Recursion is the only way you eventually overpower them, but this type of deck is all about top decks.

[troopatroop]

@ Troopatroop - Discard is a failing archtype... While I can't disagree with this statement, I'll disagree with every reason you offered to support it.

The plan discard hopes to achieve is the very reason the deck is so versatile against the field. It doesn't care whether it's creatures, or instants, or artifacts. Same game plan and it's damn efficient. Of the last build I posted, 16 cards are solely dedicated to discard when your opponent is in topdeck mode. I suppose you could consider those 16 cards dead cards, if by dead you mean they ensure The Rack or Nezumi Shortfang is pushing through 3 damage every turn. I might suppose they're considered dead too when you're forcing your opponent to cast whatever he draws every turn because it's pointless to save it. Should I even add in the obvious consideration that it is these cards which are the reason they're top decking while I most likely have a small hand left? I won't deny they lose their value after your opponent is in topdeck mode, but dead? Hardly.

As for what do I do when my opponent topdecks a Mystic Enforcerer... race it? Damn right, I race it. Whether my opponent topdecks a Mystic Enforcerer or a Swords to Plowshares I race it. It's a rough life racing the luck of a topdeck. Consider this instead. What's the likelihood I have a Reanimate in my opening hand? Same probability that they have a Mystic Enforcerer (if they happen to run a playset). What's more likely then? Me using Reanimate on their Mystic Enforcer or them topdecking the Mystic Enforcer over their next 6 draws... if they live for their next 6 draws. If their running Mystic Enforcer I'm fucking ecstatic. The probability is it will never see or play, or if it does, it will be facing them down on the back of Reanimate. It's the small multitude of creatures that Discard has issue with.

Your quip about Goblins has more merit than anything else you brought up. Lets assume they don't mulligan. Lets assume they have the nuts draw. Lets assume you haven't brought in 10-12 cards of hate from your sideboard (yet). What happens? Well, they lose their nuts draw by turn 2 and their turn 4 kill becomes a 6-8 at best. They are without cards by turn 4 unless they draw Goblin Ringleader. Likely they have between 2-4 gobbos on the table and you're removal can only takes care of 1-2 of these. You race. What the hell else are you gonna do. It's not like you auto-lose though. From experience I can pretty much guarentee that if you see double rack effects, you'll win. If you topdeck more removal than usual, you've got excellent chances. If you Reanimate a Siege-Gang Commander you're heavily favored. We'll ignore game 2 and 3.

Discard is a failing archtype because it's typically an unrefined deck played by your local scrub with little to no experience. My initial post was designed to show Discard may have the potential to compete in the legacy environment. The whole point of this forum is to evolve the deck 'til we find this is either utterly impossible, or 'til it does become a contender in the current environment.

If you're going to post in this thread, please keep it constructive and do not tell me how I'm not going to achieve positive matchups against anything but Solidarity and the like 'til you've tested it.

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To more worthwhile discussion:

If you could please not consider my words not worthwile, I'd appreciate it. Critisism can be constructive, and it often is. When Godzilla, Demi-God of the format tells me that I'm correct, and you tell me that I'm wrong, who should we all believe.


The plan discard hopes to achieve is the very reason the deck is so versatile against the field. It doesn't care whether it's creatures, or instants, or artifacts. Same game plan and it's damn efficient.

No? That's such backwards logic. Every single successful magic deck is versatile against the field and can play it's game in any matchup. You're saying that because discard works against any player that the gameplan is efficient. I'm saying that it does what it's supposed to do against any player, does a good job at it, but the gameplan itself is flawed because it does nothing against your opponent off the top. Survival of the Fittest off the top. Jitte. Flametounge Kavu. Ringleader into gas. Exalted angel.


It's a rough life racing the luck of a topdeck.

But it isn't a topdeck, because you're going to give them so much freaking time to do it. Your clock is unimpressive. The rack is bad when they don't have a cleared hand. I realize it gives you inevitability, but removal is a real thing and you can't rely on it being your gameplan. Your guys are tiny, and I know that's the way it needs to be to keep things quick, but they're going to die without alot of effort.

My point being that you will lose to alot of decks in topdeck mode. You're trying to get them into that position, but they're better off there than you are.


As for what do I do when my opponent topdecks a Mystic Enforcerer... race it? Damn right, I race it.

GL. Enforcer has pro-black and nullifies your offense.


If you're going to post in this thread, please keep it constructive and do not tell me how I'm not going to achieve positive matchups against anything but Solidarity and the like 'til you've tested it.

I think I played black discard maybe 4 cards off this list in like 10 tournaments.


Discard is a failing archtype because it's typically an unrefined deck played by your local scrub with little to no experience. My initial post was designed to show Discard may have the potential to compete in the legacy environment. The whole point of this forum is to evolve the deck 'til we find this is either utterly impossible, or 'til it does become a contender in the current environment.

And I just disagree. The forum is here to make decks better and further the metagame, you are correct. You also have to be ready to hear the "This deck isn't good" comments. Sorry.

[Jak]

Yeah, all my first decks were discard, but it just can't work. It needs support from another color or turn it into more of a Sui Black deck. I think you should just put some bigger and badder beatz in the deck and it would work.

16 swamp
4 wasteland

4 nantuko shade
4 hypnotic specter
4 phyrexian negator
3 rotting giant
2 wretched anurid
4 sarcromancy

4 dark ritual
4 duress
4 hymn to tourach
4 sinkhole
3 darkblast

That was just off the top of my head. Just faster win conditions.

[Aernil]

I know it isnt a good card, but ever considered Mindstorm Crown?
You empty your hand really quick, so it should be like a Phyrexian Arena without lifeloss.


EDIT: I know it has a high cc too, but when you drop it, you should already have 3 lands and an empty hand available

[Clark Kant]

I played the deck a bit more, both builds, and I have to say, it's not very consistent, has a low chance of winning the longer the game goes on, and it has for me atleast, lost more games than it won.

It's a fun fast deck, that's why I like it. But I wouldn't call it a super strong deck. It's just a cool idea IMO, nothing that I would ever take to a tournament.

Rotting Giant however has been awesome, as has Smallpox and Shortfang.

And I've been slightly displeased with cry of contrition. It's decent versus aggro at times, but is too situational imo.

If you wanted the strongest most viable variant of this deck, maybe, it would be better to make the deck very close to Red Death, but running the above cards and replacing the burn with discard cards that are 2 for 1s, such as possibly Cabal Therapy or possibly Wrench Mind.

You guys are right about Tombstalker though. It's a very strong card and will certainly help the pure discard archeatype out when it sees print.

[Androstanolone]

The comments about discard being a "failling archetype" have merit. I mentioned the deck is "comboesque". This is true in the sense that pure burn is also basically a combo deck. Pure burn decks have had limited success on the back of their speed but haven't broken into the top tier. I like to compare these two decks because of their similar "comboesque" nature and the fact that both discard and burn try to win as quickly as possible while casting as many cheap, efficient spells as possible.

Both have similar problems, too. If the opponent isn't dead when burn has emptied its hand then burn lives and dies by the topdeck. Discard also lives and dies by the topdeck sometimes. If the win condition is dealt with then the opponent has plenty of mana in play to cast whatever they draw off the top. Many times they draw low-impact cards but sometimes they rip decree of justice or nantuko shade or mystic enforcer/fledgeling dragon or etc. So, these decks have speed and efficiency on their side, but possess drawbacks inherent to this dependence on speed/efficiency.

While discard has the same issue of depending on the topdeck, it possesses a fundamental advantage over burn. The disadvantage of burn is readily apparent with some critical thinking. The philosophy of fire basically dictates that the burn deck needs a certain number of spells to win the game. Each spell deals some damage but ultimately has a negligible impact on game-state relevant variables. Broadly, these variables are cards in hand and board position. While life total ultimately dictates who wins the game, it has nearly nothing to do with how one obtains a winning position. Actually putting oneself in a winning position involves board control, card advantage, and deck construction superiority (having the right spells for your deck and for the metagame). So, each burn spell you use to simply decrease your opponent's life is negligible or low (at best) impact in terms of game-state relevance. Until you get to the last one or two burn spells, when they become highly relevant. This is why pure burn is a failing archetype, it must cast a number of irrelevant spells for a period of time before its spells become relevant. Good decks either win in this period of time or deal with the (relatively) low number of relevant spells the burn deck casts.

However, discard functions a bit differently. Each discard spell is of similar value. Most of the cards are one for one in terms of card advantage relevance. There is some potential for two for ones, but this is offset (on average) by some cards that are dead in some matchups (creature removal, ostracize, reanimate). As a whole, a well-built/metagamed pure discard deck has an approximate card advantage of 1:1 with other decks. This is extremely important because turns 1-3 are crucial for both discard and burn. While the burn deck is casting mostly game-irrelevant spells in those turns, the discard deck's spells are all game-relevant, and all to a similar degree. The discard deck does a much better job of positively impacting the game state in the critical early game. Then, when burn would be casting it's last 1 or 2 burn spells and getting them countered or otherwise nullified, the discard deck casts its win spells against a mostly defenseless opponent. So, not only were the discard deck's early spells impactful, its win conditions become highly relevant because they resolve.

So, discard is at the mercy of the topdeck, but it prepares for that game-state far better than other aggressive "no mana curve" decks (mostly burn and sligh). Unfortunately it tends to win (relatively) slow. Three damage or so a turn isn't blazing. Fortunately tombstalker is here. Tombstalker is a serious clock by itself. Empty their hand, drop the stalker, and god forbid the rack or shortfang also? That's fast, and the opponent will have precious few draws to answer them. Discard gets just as many draws to find another, though.

I know this was long, and I think you for reading. I understand why discard is considered a "failing" archetype. Fundamentally, it is, like most decks that rely totally on the first few turns with speed/efficiency. But, its game plan is better than other decks of its type and, with the addition of tombstalker, is that much more of a contender.

[Galroth]

I continue to disagree that Discard is not nor cannot be a viable deck. I do recognize many of the problems stated against it, however I do not believe they obviate the effectiveness of this deck. I'll bypass any particular arguments for the moment because I really don't think there will be agreement - instead I'll stick to development.

Discard's clock is slow. There's really no question there. My most recent changes have been to increase this clock without switching over to using discard as a small disruption package for some sui/pox variant. There are better builds for sui and pox already under discussion in other, more appropriate threads.

Tombstalker - He's one big beater and he does come online about turn 4 or 5 when you're looking to lay down a clock. I've been running 3 because multiples in hand are worthless. So far I'm very satisfied with my latest inclusions, and he's a primary reason for me being that way. He's huge, has evasion, and burn doesn't touch him. His drawbacks are fairly slight. I've included Cabal Pit recently (another suggestion from Zilla *props*) and while I thought 3 could be useful, I ended up running just 2 because Tombstalker removes your threshold. This is hardly a problem because Tombstalker will take care of any attacking creature that Cabal Pits would have for the most part. In addition, I had to cut Spinning Darkness in order to save those cards for Tombstalker. I really did appreciate Spinning Darkness over other removal spells. This took along time to determin through testing, but Spinning Darkness be able to target as early as turn 2, and the lifegain caused me to use it without second thought over other removal spells. Tombstalker and Spinning Darkness don't mix. They both want those precious graveyard resources, and since I'd opted to test Tombstalker he wins out, much to my appreciation.

Infernal Tutor - I'm tired of black not having a decent tutor. While I wasn't sure initially about Infernal Tutor, I've found it's drawback to be so little. You hit hellbent very quickly with this deck, especially if you want to. Being able to find The Rack, Tombstalker, or some removal has won me over. In addition I can run Cursed Scroll and Zuran Orb. Now that I think about it Ensnaring Bridge might be a worthwhile include, I'm already at Hellbent!

Between Tombstalker and Infernal Tutor the clock is notably faster.

Other changes:

Hypnotic Specter - I cut the damn thing. *tear* He was such a staple for so long a time. He really isn't as good without Dark Ritual though, and he's just too slow. Tombstalker replaces him.

Cry of Contrition and Smallpox - I tried both of these only for a bit admittedly, but I found I was unwilling to make the sacrifices Smallpox requires and I ended up playing aroud Smallpox rather than being enthusiastic to see it. Tell me how these two are working out for ya. I'm gonna experiment with a different line for the moment. Clark, you were really satisfied thus far, let me know how it goes.

Ravenous Rats - I think he's been replaced... :) I was reading Future Sight spoilers over at mtgsalvation.com and came across Augur of Skulls, updated as of this morning. Same price as Ravenous Rats, can 2 for 1 them during your next upkeep, and he has a regenerate. I generally chump blocked with Ravenous Rats anyways, Augur of Skulls is that much better. I've only goldfished with the inclusion of Augur of Skulls thus far, but it seems he'll be an easy replacement.

Current List

Land (18)
16x Swamp
2x Cabal Pit
1-Drops (25)
4x Duress
4x Ostracize
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Funeral Charm
4x Reanimate
4x The Rack
1x Cursed Scroll
2-Drops (13)
4x Hymn to Tourach
3x Augur of Skulls
3x Nezumi Shortfang
3x Infernal Tutor
Other (3)
1x Zuran Orb
3x Tombstalker
This list perhaps lacks enough removal. It does up your clock though, and since you can tutor for Cursed Scroll, Funeral Charm, or Zuran Orb it doesn't seem as bad. The inclusion of Augur of Skulls reduces much of the need for removal as well. We'll see how it works.

A last question: does anyone know where I can find a spreadsheet listing probability of seeing 1-7 lands in my opening hand with 16/17/18/19 lands in a 60 card deck?

[Clark Kant]

I really like the direction you're going with the deck now. FS is adding a lot of great stuff to the archeatype.

Like I posted earlier.

I was unhappy with Cry of Contrition and Ostracize to some extent (I played as much nonaggro as I did aggro), but Rotting Giant, Smallpox and Shortfang have been very good.

Of course, my build was only running 8 creatures and the more and better creatures we get, the worse Smallpox gets. And Tombstalker had poor synergy with Rotting Giant.

So I can't really disagree with any of your card choices, Tombstalker and Augur look very strong, though Zuran Orb looks odd. But I think the build would need to be tested and tweaked a lot still.

[z38gm]

The deck looks okay but i still dont see how it has any chance against any straight aggro deck...especially goblins. Also infernal tutor doesnt look good in this deck, maybe something life infest to keep you alive a turn more...not that it would help much without a faster clock vs decks that is matters.

[rufus]

I wonder if it's possible to usefully combine mutual discard like
Chain of Smoke
Noxious Vapors
Abandon Hope

with discard friendly cards like:
Basking Rootwalla
Ashen Ghoul
Ichorid
Krovikan Horror

[Galroth]

A quick tweak I'm testing... replace Cursed Scroll with Ensnaring Bridge. You'll generally search for it using Infernal TUtor which means you're already at hellbent. And it's easy to sit behind it without a hand while The Rack slowly drops them. You tend not to build your hand back up. I've only tested it against gobbos thus far, but I like it. The games I'm able to tutor for it, I've won.

Also, someone was a little quirked about Zuran Orb. I'm not certain either it's the best inclusion, but I like how it's cheap to bring out, and converts any late unnecessary land draws into life. I tossed it in primarily to combat burn spells, but it finds itself useful outside of that also.

What else... so far I'm pretty happy with the build. Thanks for everyone's help thus far. I'll see if I can start running it against a gauntlet to draw up some results. I don't have alot of time so I'll only be matching it against 6 or so decks - gobbos, UGw Thresh, and Solidarity for sure. I'd like to match it against Faerie Stompy and TES but not many players have picked those up in my area. Any suggestions? More interestingly, any predictions?

Ah yes, suggested sideboard? I'm still pretty flexible about what I've been using, and I tend to tailor it to aggro, that not only being the problem match-ups but also what's played in my meta. Infest, Darkblast (synergizes well with Tombstalker), Chains of Mephistopheles, 1 Tormod's Crypt, possibly Diabolic Edict, possibly 1 Mindstorm Crown (interesting idea Aernil). What sort of numbers would you people run?

[troopatroop]

Also, someone was a little quirked about Zuran Orb. I'm not certain either it's the best inclusion, but I like how it's cheap to bring out, and converts any late unnecessary land draws into life. I tossed it in primarily to combat burn spells, but it finds itself useful outside of that also.

Random singleton artifacts that don't go with your gameplan, and are situational at best, tend to be more harm than good. I'd play a Scroll in it's place.

[Cavius The Great]

Random singleton artifacts that don't go with your gameplan, and are situational at best, tend to be more harm than good. I'd play a Scroll in it's place.

It shouldn't be much harm since he's able to fetch it with Infernal Tutor. It seems like you missed that comment.

[troopatroop]

It shouldn't be much harm since he's able to fetch it with Infernal Tutor. It seems like you missed that comment.

No, I got it. Zuran Orb is bad. The amount of situations where it would actually win you the game, as opposed to, idk, wishing for good cards is miniscule. It's undefendable to play bad cards just because they could potentially win a game once in a blue moon. You're going to draw that card alot more than you're going to be in those situations, and It's going to be suboptimal.

[Cavius The Great]

No, I got it. Zuran Orb is bad. The amount of situations where it would actually win you the game, as opposed to, idk, wishing for good cards is miniscule. It's undefendable to play bad cards just because they could potentially win a game once in a blue moon. You're going to draw that card alot more than you're going to be in those situations, and It's going to be suboptimal.

How is drawing Zuran Orb bad? It's zero mana, so it's not like you'll have a problem casting it. It also lets you sac lands in response to opponent's Wastelands, Geddons and land destruction and most importantly, lethal damage. I don't think it's as bad as you make it out to be.

[troopatroop]

How is drawing Zuran Orb bad? It's zero mana, so it's not like you'll have a problem casting it. It also lets you sac lands in response to opponent's Wastelands, Geddons and land destruction and most importantly, lethal damage. I don't think it's as bad as you make it out to be.

It doesn't do anything. Sure it's free, So is Spellbook. Using it in response to Wastelands isn't even a strong play. You gain 2. Whoopidee doo. You're only playing 2 Wasteable sources too. Both of which can be sacced in response. Geddon and Land destruction? Again, you're blowing up lands to gain life. You're not even hurting their plan. Didn't anyone ever teach you why spells that gain life are useless? You're giving away card advantage for time. But in that time you won't have the resources to recover, because you wasted card advatange to get there. Life totals don't matter. Board positon matters.

I'll blow up some lands to save myself from [Aggro Deck]. Sure thing, I'll live another turn! I may even Top-deck an answer! And even if the most optimal thing in that situation happens, you'll have lost card advantage by blowing up your own lands. The most successful plan to stop this is to not get yourself into situations like that in the first place, by playing removal and solving the problem, not delaying the inevitable.

This is just basic stuff.

[Galroth]

Oddly enough I've found that Cabal Pit gets me into more trouble that good. It's benefit is obvious, but hitting Threshold is actually a bit slower than I thought it would be. Your cards don't cantrip, so you're not hitting threshold 'til turn 5 or later usually.

Marks against it: Opening yourself up to Wasteland is never good, and even though I'm only running 2 copes, with only 18 lands I can't afford to lose even a single land early on. It's not like I can cantrip to find another. Next, Cabal Pit and Tombstalker have negative synergy. I seldom have a game where I'm actually at threshold. Tombstalker ensures I don't see threshold, and he's much more important than Cabal Pit. Additionally, with Infernal Tutor I generally see Tombstalker if I choose to (read: often). Finally, I simply take too much damage from Cabal Pit, especially in my hardest matchups, to warrant it's inclusion when I seldom see it take out a creature, and even more seldomly think its drawbacks outweigh any value it offers.

It was kind of surprising. I had hoped Cabal Pit would shore up my aggro matchs up a bit better. Sadly, if anything it seems to hurt them.

Zuran Orb on the other hand is useful. I'm still uncertain if it's the best option. There are many singletons I could add that are probably meta dependant - Pithing Needle, Cursed Scroll, Crypt, Explosives, Removal, et al.. Zuran Orb buys you a turn or two while Tombstalker or The Rack finish them off. Thus far I'm happy with it.

[Galroth]

I finally put together a sideboard I'm satisfied with. Before presenting that I should mention I dropped from 3 Tombstalkers to 2. Tombstalker and Infernal Tutor work poorly in conjunction and you want optimally 1 in your first 10 cards. I dropped the Tombstalker because you can always search for him with Infernal Tutor and by doing so it decreases the chance of seeing doubles of Infernal Tutor/Tombstalker by roughly 7% while keeping a high likelyhood you'll see atleast 1.

Alright... Sideboard:
1x Tombstalker (heh)
4x Darkblast
1x Infest
1x Cursed Scroll
3x Innocent Blood
1x Tormod's Crypt
4x Wrench Mind

Dark Blast / Infest / Tombstalker / Cursed Scroll
This is your basic anti-aggro suite. Dark Blast and Tombstalker pair really well. With 4x Funeral Charm and 4x Dark Blask your turn 1 answer to Lackey is satisfactory. I'd cut 1 Infernal Tutor and sub in 1 Tombstalker; if you can get him out against the majority of weenie-aggro decks you're nearly assured of winning. The Infest and Cursed Scroll are remaining tutorable answers to whatever situation you might be in. Against Goblins, Darkblast comes in for Duress (and pray they're not packing Chalice of the Void in their sideboard). Against other aggro-weenie choosing what to subout is a bit harder.

Wrench Mind
If I had money for Chains of Meph, it might be these. But I don't. Against creatureless decks (most Combo and alot of Contro), out goes Ostrasize, in comes Wrench Mind. Kinda easy decision there.

Innocent Blood / Tormod's Crypt
These spots are more debateable in my opinion. Innocent blood takes care of anything with a large body. I'm using these particularly against Threshold and like variants. I've thought about Diabolic Edict instead of Innocent Blood, or even Terror. I've even considering running a variance of removal spells so I can tutor for my exact need, but I'm happy thus far with just the Innocent Bloods. Your Augur of Skulls will likely not get hit, as you'll just sacrifice them. If you've got a Tombstalker in play, you probably don't even need to worry about Innocent Blood. Nezumi Shortfang is the real question, but I think I'd sub atleast 1 Nezumi out whenever bringing Innocent Blood in.

On another note - Discard has a decent game against Hulk Flash. I tend to discount this in my choice of maindeck and sideboard options because I don't expect Hulk Flash to stick around much longer. But besides the dedicated hate decks that role over to the rest of the field, Discard is one of the few decks that can go near 50/50. It really does seem a coin flip sadly. Either grab flash or hulk from them in the first turn or two (if you make if that far) then break their hand as quickly as possible... or lose. If Hulk Flash does stick around I could actually see a huge resurgence in discard because it does have game against the rest of the field while maintaining a decent hulk flash matchup. As much as this is my pet deck, I still hate what hulk flash has turned the meta into. Please let it go away.

[Yamaelle]

Very interesting opening thread. I also played around Necropotence and discard for some time, and enjoyed it for sure. I believe removing the specters is painfull, but the right decision. I am sure Zuran can help, but I think I'd rather play something more agressive, why not an extra creature, rather than lifegains... Good luck with the deck anyway.

About your SB :
-Maybe it's because I mostly play Faerie Stompy in Legacy tournaments, but the first thing I noticed is that you "die" to calice=1 preboard. And you have no SB answers. I now you play monoB, and removing artifacts is difficult (Gates to Phyrexia ?), but you could run Powder Kegs and/or Explosives. That might be useful in other MUs. I know little decks can cast chalice=1 turn 1, aside from stax, FS, 5/3,( not so common MUs okay)... but more and more decks pack it in the SB, as it's a common anticombo SB card, helps vs Threshold, kills burn ... Here in France, most Goblin decks play 4 in their SBs. I really think you need something to face chalice(s) in SB.
-I suppose the combo MU is good enough already, but with all the discard package you play, I suppose some Extirpates could be the icing on the cake.

[Galroth]

Chalice of the Void - Easily the worst card Discard can see. Quite honestly, I don't know what to do about it. The answers you listed are the best, they're still just so weak though. Faerie Stompy is one of my worst match-ups in a large part because of this. Not to mention its large creatures and equipment that Discard really just isn't suited to deal with. The only mitigating factor to being absolutely rolled is the precarious hands Fairie Stompy often sees and which some early discard can make virtually unplayable. Still not a good matchup.

Extirpate - Is just icing on the cake and a bit of a win more against combo. This may not be so much the case with Hulk Flash as it's still a struggle to win where Discard pretty much rolls the rest of its combo MU's. Seems like overkill for the most part.

Zuran Orb - Seems it's been a fairly contentious card. I've really considered running Cursed Scroll in its place. Part of the reason I play Zuran Orb is because I see an uncommonly large number of scrub decks in my area. Burn is way too prominent. Zuran Orb actually comes in quite useful alot more than one would think. It gains you a couple of turns by stalling as the rack or a tombstalker get in 1 or 2 more hits. Often this is the case. The slot Zuran Orb and Ensnaring Bridge have are designated predominately for whatever meta you're in.

EDIT: another interesting way to use Zuran Orb which comes up surpisingly often, is to accelerate into Tombstalker a turn earlier by tapping for mana, then sacrificing it to add another count on delve. Not that this justifies Zuran Orb, but I usually don't mind seeing the card, where there are just as many times, if not morethat Ensnaring Bridge has bogged me down, especially against non-aggro. I may have to switch back to Cursed Scroll for one of these two slots as it also serves as a kill.

I suppose I should hate you for playing Fairie Stompy then posting in Discard. It's people like you that prevent me from T8ing :P.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Is there any reason imaginable to man why you would run a Blue splash in a discard deck and not run Recoil or Repeal, given that bounce makes your discard not suck completely in the mid-to-late game?

Plus you can pretend you're playing Spoils.

[Galroth]

I don't have as much experience with the blue-splash as I'd prefer. To give a little context to your comments IBA (cause at first they seemed a little random to me, as we were discussing the mono-b build (by all means I'm interested in a blue splash variant as well!)) I've provided a basic skeleton of the last decklist I played with blue:


Discard (12):
4x Duress
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Hymn to Tourach
Creatures (14):
4x Hypnotic Specter
4x Dark Confidant
2x Dimir Cutpurse
4x Trinket Mage
Other (6):
4x The Rack
1x Cursed Scroll
1x Pithing Needle
Land (~20)

That leaves roughly 8 spots open.

The blue splash plays a slower more controlling game. IMO it's actually pretty similary to Hanni Fish in style . It is a less explosive game and goes for more long term card advantage rather than making your opponent spill the contents of their hand in the first 3 turns. This is in part due to the higher mana curve and the diluted mana-base. It really is a different strategy on whole than the mono-b build we were just discussing.

Advantage: It has a better late game and Trinket Mage lets you get multiple rack effects online for a good clock (in addition to the greater number of creatures it runs). The card advantage confidant, cutpurse, and hypnotic offer are great once they're going. Again, it sacrifices hand consistency and speed for these.

In the remaining 8 spots I've considered spot removal, equipment, and Dark Ritual. This all is directed again at the increased number of creatures this version runs and attempts to make sure they stay useful.

--
Back to IBA's suggestions. While I can see both cards being useful, the first question I ask is what you would replace? Of the two I like Recoil considerably more; but I wouldn't be running a full playset - 3 maybe 2. It does take care of any permanent, which is a glaring weakness in mono-b. Is it better than spot removal, equipment to win the ground war, or ritual? That's pretty questionable in my opinion. As a disclaimer I haven't played with this build enough to really be an authority on the matter.

Since the revival of fish-esque builds seems so popular right now, this might be an interesting route to explore. I think I've expressed my opinion in the past that the mono-b build I've been testing is better. But then again it's also way more developed. Thoughts?

As to Spoils of the Vault... forgive me, but I have no clue what in the hell you're talking about.

[eternaldarkness]

Spoils is a B/U combo deck. I think.

I've been a long-time fan of dicard based strategies for a loooong time now. The first time I realized that my dark banishings and terrors in my R/B deck would do nothing against creatureless strategies, I've looked at discard as the holy grail of magic.

That said, I agree when people said that it is a "failing archetype". The thing is once you erase their entire hand out of the game and force them into topdeck mode, you have to end the game immediately else they will just topdeck into business spells and outrace you. And yes, there are a lot of decks out there that can outrace you. Fish and Slivers (both decks on the rise due to combo summer) have cheap and efficient beaters coupled with free countermagic. All they have to do is lay a few beaters and counter your scariest discard (hymn to tourach) and win conditions. The fact that they use a low land count and 10-12 cantrips also means that even if you do manage to force them into topdeck, they can easily cycle through their deck to get to their beaters. Unlike Discard which has to slow draw into your "dead" 12-16 discard spells. And yes, when the opponent is casting every card they draw, discard is dead.

This brings us to the next glaring weakness of Discard, the presence of so many dead draws (discard spells) once topdeck mode has been initiated. That being said, I don't think that the archetype doesn't deserve some support. Like I said, I love discard. Its just that the weaknesses of the strategy is a severe setback to people who can just play Fish or Flash which are, IMHO, stronger options to Discard.

In order to push Discard as a successful deck archetype, we need to address these weaknesses. I think you've already taken the first steps of doing this with the inclusion of cards like Tombstalker and Infernal Tutor.

Tombstalker is the perfect clock for discard. Its easy to cast thanks to all the low cc spells your running. It also outclasses a lot of creatures in legacy from nimble mongeese to werebears to serra avengers. Plus it can hang back to defend against Exalted Angles which, incidentally, it can kill with ease. An absolute 3-4 maindeck choice. However, one weakness of the demon is its absolute reliance on your graveyard. With Leylines of the Void running rampant, you might see this used against you.

Which is why we need other threats to back the big demon up in case this does happen. I think this deck would greatly benefit with the inclusion of Mishra's Factories. Factories ups your threat count while at the same time acts as a land drop. The fact that they're colorless shouldn't be that big of an issue in a basically mono-color deck. Also, we can run Urborg, tomb of Yawgmoth to fix the color base if Factories screws it up too much.

Ok so what other beaters do we need? Hypnotic Specter is an auto-include as it bridges the gap between discard and beating down. It also ensures that the opponent doesn't hoard lands in his hand to reduce the damage of the Rack. With the Rack, you'll be dealing 5 damage a turn, comparable to tombstalker.

Hypnotic Specter also means that you have to include dark ritual in the deck. The option of going for first turn Hippie is way too good not to run. Also dark ritual allows you to unload your entire suite of discard immediately. I think you mentioned in your opening post that speed is a discard decks ally and that you need to be fast in order to get to use your discard before the opponent just casts his cards. Dark Ritual is speed. Plus is synergizes well with tombstalker, allowing you to cast the demon even with a low land count. Nuff said.

Ok, lets recap: In order to solve the problem of lacking in fast beaters that can race, we use the tried and tested Hippie/Rack combo, the much suggested Tombstalker, and the absolutely phenomenal Mishra's Factory. I decided to use dark ritual because of its synergy with hippie, tombstalker and the rest of your discard. The demons and the factories should be enough to outrace decks.

The next problem, the sucky topdecks, has already been addressed somewhat with the inclusion of Factories. Lands that do double duty as beaters help a lot in upping the probability that you topdeck into a threat.

The next thing you should do is go ahead and throw in 6-8 fetchlands in the deck. Using fetchlands thins the deck of lands (basically dead draws), optimizing your topdecks. You compared the deck to burn. Well burn also runs 6-8 fetchlands in order to optimize topdecks and I can't see the reason why this deck can't since its already a given that you'll enter that stage of the game. They also synergize well with the demons, so they're an auto-include.

The addition of fetchlands in the deck allows you to support sense's divining top, which I think is a valuable tool for Discard. Early game you can use it to optimize the flow of discard. Later you can use it to dig for beaters or for the Rack. Its cheap, fits in the curve and addresses a main weakness of the deck.

Lastly, I think the only straight-up discard spells you should run are Duress and Hymn because of their speed and pure power. All other discard should play double duty. Ravenous rats and Augur of Skulls plays the double duty of discard and small beaters (Actually more of chumpblockers giving you time to find your demons/the Rack). Funeral Charm acts as a pseudo-shock with an attacker or as a point removal for X/1 creatures when not being used as instant speed discard. Ostracize is too weak and too situational to be used maindeck.And if your going to make him discard a creature, its much better tempo-wise to make him use mana in casting it then kill it with some point removal. You black, you shouldn't have too much trouble searching for one.

Anyway a list using the above points I mentioned. This is very rough as its just off the top of my head. Its purpose is to initiate discussion concerning the deck.

Mana (23)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Bloodstained Mire
7 Polluted Delta
6 Swamp

Win Conditions (7)
3 Tombstalker
4 The Rack

Discard (24)
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Funeral Charm
4 Augur of Skulls
4 Ravenous Rats
4 Hypnotic Specter

Card Selection (5)
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Infernal Tutor

Tutor Target (1)
1 Ensnaring Bridge - useful tutor target when "racing" aggro

Sideboard (15)
4 Extirpate - for combo like Iggy Pop
4 Leyline of the Void - for Hulk Flash
4 Massacre - for fish, Gro and Slivers
2 Dystopia - for threshold
1 Phyrexian Tribute - you keep complaining about Chalice, well this is the only mono-black card out there that can stop it. Janky? Yuo betcha!

You'll notice that I cut cabal therapy and Shortfang. Therapy has to go since you really need your creatures to chump-block/ beat. The pinpoint discard of therapy isn't really needed since you will most likely make them discard their entire hands anyway. Shortfang is cut because its waaay too slow. You need an investment of 4 mana (2 to cast and then 2 to activate) spread over two turns (since he doesn't have haste) before he can even flip to something useful. In that time, the opponent would have already killed him. Its reusable discard, but hey Hypnotic Specter is simply much better.

OStracize is cut because its weak due to above mentioned reasons. I can't believe that you guys actually considered them in here...

Anyway good luck with the deck!! Myself, I'm working on a pox variant.

[Galroth]

@eternaldarkness

It's always good to see interest still exists in this classic strategy. Your post was most welcome and obviously well thought out. I disagree with you on many of your points though. When looking at your decklist it works well in conjunction with all the changes you've made. However, I don't think that direction is the most viable direction for discard to take. Where to start? You covered alot of ground...

In no particular order:

Hypnotic Specter - Cutting this dude was so hard. But after doing so I'm of the firm opinion that it was the right choice. Dark Ritual into Hypnotic Specter can win games, it's simple as that. It's a hot play. The problem is that otherwise Hypnotic Specter, just isn't great outside of that play. He's still good mind you, but not great. Hypnotic Specter doesn't start making them discard 'til turn 4 without acceleration. This is... weak sauce, they shouldn't have a hand by the time (of course I'm running a few more early discard effects than your build does). As a beater he's just too slow. I know he combines both discard and beats, and can be a great turn 1 play. In addition he makes them discard land which most of your discard doesn't cover, but that is a rare scenario. All of this in a single package made him really hard to cut - I kept him for nearly 6 years 'til a couple months ago. Even the turn 1 play isn't as great as you'd think. You've got a fairly small chance of seeing it occur (40% x 40%), and up until this last metagame shift, most decks packed an answer to turn 1 lackey, much of which covers for a turn 1 hyppie also. The likelihood of this breaking someone's game is pretty small. His slow beats, his rarely used ability, and the fact that he was on the top of my mana-curve led me to cut him.

Dark Ritual - This supported my choice to cut Hypnotic Specter. Yes, I did say tempo was important, but I also mentioned that discard operates off of card-advantage. The tempo offered by Dark Ritual does not make up for its loss in card-advantage in my opinion. The low mana-curve of Disard is more than adequate to generate the tempo you want. Later on Dark Ritual is absolutely a dead draw. Not like a duress or a hymn drawn off the top... Dark Ritual is so much more dead accepting the very very rare occassion where I would want to get a Tombstalker into play and my graveyard can't afford it. Getting Tombstalker into play without Dark Ritual is quite easy. Dark Ritual only accelerates one into a Tombstalker about a turn earlier when both are in your starting hand. Again this is a somewhat rare occasion.

Ostracize/Reanimation - Try it out. I wouldn't go back for the life of me now. Your best play is usually a turn 1 Ostracize. Legacy is often called the creature format. There are very few decks that don't run creatures. Even against combo and control grabbing that lone creature in their hand is so very important. Hulk without Protean Hulk is quite a bit less scary (providing an example of a combo deck where it's useful). Enchantress without its draw from Argothian Enchatress isn't half as hot. I fully understand that Ostracize can be situational, but there are so few times that it is... and if that is the case, those are the decks Discard steam rolls with or without Ostracize. Reanimation makes Ostracize that much better. Often their creatures are better than yours, so take their biggest and bring it back. However, bringing your own creatures back is pretty hot too. I find myself targeting Augur of Skulls for its regeneration, or the fact that it takes care of those pesky lands they're hold back to stem a rack effect. Keeping a Nezumi Shortfang or Tombstalker in play never hurts either (okay... Reanimation on Tombstalker hurts a hell of alot... 8 lost life, but that's worth a game win when you do it.) Seriously EternalDarkness, give it a chance. It's hot.

Cabal Therapy - It is probably one of the weaker of your discard spells. I still include it because it's amazing for taking that one key card you can't have them playing (read: Chalice of the Void, Goblin Lackey, Flash, etc.). The inclusion of Ostracize makes it easier to play. I also think one of the remarkable potent strengths of my current build is the fact that I will know what their hand is one turn 1 nearly 90% of the time. Knowing their hand and conquently how to play against it mitigates my noob skillz :P

Nezumi Short Fang - Slow to come online, just like specter, which I dislike. But unlike specter he is an excellent clock. Recursive discard that becomes an excellent clock almost forces me to run him. Still, I rarely ever want to see more than 1 of him a game. And generally not until turns 4+.

Sensei's Divining Top - It's an excellent tool to fix your topdeck and it fits the curve. The single problem with it is that you're required to run fetchlands. Your build does this and it makes it a good inclusion. I'm not sure if I agree with your manabase though. You could be right in going this direction, but I'm not sold yet

The life loss to fetchlands does add up. In fact, it downright hurts. Against aggro decks it hurts that much more, maybe to the point of too much. (Of course your build has a few more chump blockers than mine, so it might be alright). I'm don't have Dark Ritual so the 4 mishras being colorless sources is a problem. Urgborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth doesn't make up for this. It's seen too little to really make the difference. My initial thoughts would be that Spawning Pool is a better choice that mishras because it it can regenerate while The Rack finishes them off. More on Mishra's Factory: if you're against aggro you can't hope to really go beatdown with this guy. They'll have a larger hoard and you need a fatty or something with evasion to actually hit them. You're probably chump blocking with him against aggro and this in my opinion is the single benefit of mishras. Against combo or control Mishra's Factory is too slow to really make a big difference (this is mostly inconsequential however, 'cause you generally have all the time you need to kill them). In summation I'm not sure weakening your manabase is worth it. I'd love to run the top, that is hot; but again are the drawbacks worth it.


I know many of these remarks can be a little counter-intuitive at first. Let me offer some more abstract thoughts as to justify them. I believe Discard should seek consistency in its opening-hand rather than explosive game breaking plays. (In fact, Discard capitalizes on breaking those explosive game breaking plays - pick the right card out of a combo deck and they keel over... grab the dark ritual from Deadguy and you've nearly won your game.) I think the concept of Discard is based more around inevitability. You don't want to mulligan and you sacrifice your possible better plays for more certain plays. You're 'disrupting' them then setting down a clock they have to scramble for a way to deal with. With this in mind i think foregoing specter, ritual, and a more unstable manabase is the correct choice.

*that will almost undoubtedly draw critique

Atleast, I think that's the direction I think mono-black versions of Discard should take. If you don't disagree with that theory behind Discard see my next post about some thoughts I was having on B/u Discard.

*Forgive me mod-gods for soon making a double post :) I thought it might be warranted since the two ideas are fairly different - and I'm hesitant to begin a new thread on it.

[Galroth]

I've been doing some thinking about B/u variants of Discard for the past week. I mentioned that the blue splash plays more like Hanni fish; I came to realize just how similar the two decks are. For reference, here is my latest build:

Mana (24)
20x Land - still haven't worked out the exact split
4x Dark Ritual
Discard (12)
4x Duress
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Hymn to Tourach
Creatures (16)
4x Dark Confidant
4x Hypnotic Specter
4x Shadowmage Infiltrator
4x Trinket Mage
Artifacts (8)
4x The Rack
1x Cursed Scroll
3x Umezawa's Jitte

Basically this list feels like a more proactive, explosive, and aggressive version of Hanni fish. Is it better? A little doubtful, but quite simliar in play-style and deck elements.

For disruption, in place of a counter suite you're running discard, a more proactive method.

The creature base is similar to Hanni fish in that each of your creatures provides card-advantage in some form. Not having white just makes you run a different selection of creatures. Dark Confidant, and Shadowmage Infiltrator gain you cards. Hypnotic Specter attacks their hands. Trinket Mage nets you an artifact (usually The Rack). Your creatures are in general designed to be more aggressive than in fish.

UWb fish generally runs about 20 creatures, there are only 16 here. The Rack is your other damage source, basically your creature slots 17-20. But it's a bit harder to deal with and an alternate kill (I like having options).

The major difference lays in the fact that you don't have cantrips. Instead your cantrips are replaced with 4x Dark Ritual and a bit more discard than Hanni Fish packs counters.

Alot of similarity in basic elements again. There are so many variants of fish running around that I really begin to wonder what kind of distinction there should be between a deck like this and something given the name fish.

I've tested it briefly and I like it alot. It's good against a varied field of decks - all around quite solid, even without a sideboard developed. It is generally quicker to the kill and a little less controlling. It's creature base is admittedly weaker in combat. It's hard to compare to Mom and Avenger. Meddling Mage is also a better hoser, but all around I think it's pretty robust.

Finally, in reference to my last post: if you think Discard should take a more explosive route, then I highly recommend going down a path something like this. The difference between this deck and my mono-b build is phenomenal. This plays much like fish, the mono-b list I posted is more burn/combo-like.

Thoughts?

Edit: I'd be really interested to hear Hanni's take on the differences between these two decks.

[eternaldarkness]

Ok I think I'm going to enjoy this little debate of ours :)

@Hypnotic Specter: I agree that without dark ritual the card is not that strong. But you forget the interaction with The Rack. When I played the deck without Hippie, I really wanted a recursive discard effect to go with the Rack. With Rack out, sometimes they'll just drop a single threat to race the Rack then hoard cards in hand. The Rack also starts to suck if they topdeck into draw spells. With Hippie, you can drop it then start attacking, chipping away at their lifetotals, and at the same time you force them to play out their hand. Either they do that or they lose them to Hippie's random discard. Really a recursive discard spell is really what this deck needs if its going to use the Rack. I tried cards like Bottomless Pit and Despotic Scepter before settling on Hippie. The fact that it can go first turn Hippie also pushes the card way over the top into "solid playable card".

That being said, you pointed out that first turn Hippie is easy to counter. I agree with you. Swords, Bolt, Force, Daze...all can stop the dream turn one of Swamp-Ritual-Hippie go. However, I believe this can be played around. For example, if you want to play it safe, you can turn one play duress. THEN, turn two duress/therapy, ritual Hippie go. Its still a strong play and you get to use Duress/Therapy to force the Specter through.

@Dark Ritual: This really should be in the deck. No questions asked. Most of the non-Fish decks use acceleration. Faerie Stompy uses Ancient tomb while other decks may use Chrome Mox. Dark Ritual allows you to go toe-to-toe with their acceleration letting your discard suite to come onlie BEFORE they play out their threats.

I also disagree when you say that discard is a card advantage deck. To me its more of a tempo deck. Make them discard their hand then win the game as fast as possible before they can stabilize. Card advantage while a nice concept for the deck really doesn't apply for Discard. Your lists usually consists of creatures+mana+discard spells with little answers for actual threats that hit the board. You can have as much card advantage as you want but if you can't answer that Nimble Mongoose then your dead. If you want to use card advantage then a more controlling route with Damnations/Pernicious Deeds might be the way to go.

@Reanimation: I have had ZERO experience with this card. So I can't really comment. I seem to remember a DieselPox list in the old days that made use of discard like Hymn and Pox along with Animate Dead and Dance of the Dead to reanimate discarded creatures so you might be on to something here. Anyway, I think Animate dead is a better option as it doesn't cost you life.

@Ostracize: You really are vehement with this card are you? You point out repeatedly that Legacy is the creature format. But if you look at actual lists you'll see that only Goblins uses an overload of creature spells. Decks like Fish commonly use 18. Threshold uses 8-12 and that's it. Protean Hulk uses 4 Hulk, 1 Kikki-Jikki, 1 Karmic Guide, 1 Carrion Feeder, 1 Sylvan Safekeeper for a total of only 8! Nabbing a Hulk on turn one with Ostracize might seem good play for you but it just simply won't happen that often. Much better to nab that Flash, Mystical Tutor or Force. Against Fish and Threshold, its also much better to nab that Daze or Force of Will which would then allow your Massacre to well massacre his team. Making them discard creature spells is simply weaker than just letting them cast them, use Duress to take out their countermagic then kill said creatures. It would cause them to lose much more tempo by making them tap out for their creatures.

@Cabal Therapy: depends largely on playstyle and experience. I'm horrible at poker so I'm not a big fan of the card. But I know its good.

@Sensei's + Fetchlands: I really think this is the way to go. The library manipulation will go a long way in getting you those wins. The lifeloss from fetch is pretty negligible compared to the fact that you can fix your mana, thin your deck of lands, fuel tombstalker and help break Top.

Concerning the manabase, its rough after all. Fix it as you see fit. Probably by going down to three Mishra's or upping the Urborg count.

@U/B discard fish: Looks playable though a bit rough. Cutpurse is jank if you don't maindeck creature removal to force it through. A much better card would be Shadowmage Infiltrator which has fear and has no trouble wielding a Jitte. How are your match-ups with this deck?

Keep the interest alive Galroth! Discard is waaay cooler than Flash-Hulk anyday. :tongue:

EDIT: Have you seen the MBA deck that top foured in the Grand Prix? I think that's one iteration of Discard you can pursue. Unmask seems way cool and helps you with that turn one Hippie. Start with Unmask then ritual-Hippie-go. Same thing as duress but much faster.

[Galroth]

In almost reverse order of topics covered (because the stuff at the end is much easier to address :)):

Yeah, I saw the MBA deck. It's cool that it made it that far, I do like MBA. But I think the deck is so tuned to the flash-meta expected at gp colombus that it would fail in our previous meta. I expect we will nearly revert back to that previous meta after June 1, and I doubt the MBA list will ever making a real showing again.

Next point: you're completely right on Shadowmage Infiltrator... how did I not think about that. I'm sad to see Nezumi Shortfang go because he comes out a bit sooner, but infiltrator is so much better in so many ways. That card draw is much needed. The cantrip ability is the one big thing that seperates this deck from the quality of Hanni fish in my opinion. The draw from Shadowmage brings it one step closer.

I haven't had the time to test this deck extensively. Again, I've only been working with it for about a week now. As you can expect it dominates control. Combo isn't as good as mono-black discard... but what deck could hope to have a combo match-up like mono-b. Regardless, combo is basically rolled unless you're lacking turn 1 or 2 discard (i.e. failed to mulligan properly if you knew you were facing combo). The problem, as always, seems to be aggro. There's alot of different aggro out there. Goblins... it's rough. Angel stompy... maybe worse. Are these unwinnable; not at all, but they're tight match-ups. I imagine the sideboard would pack 4 engineered plagues, possible 4 leylines and 4 serum powders (if we continue to see alot of combo) and possibly even Chalice of the Void, or a slew of situational artifacts like Tormod's Crypt, Pithing Needle, etc. I'm pretty dang excited to work on this deck some more. It's shaping up to be a contender fairly quickly. The only question is if this is better then UWb fish in any manner that warrants running this instead of UWb fish.

@ Sensei's/Fetchlands - Still a hot card. I'll need to test it in order to assess viability as this one is out of my experience. I formerly cut Cabal Pit even though it seemed quite good because it was a bane more than a benefit. I've expressed my concerns about a shaky manabase especially while running 18 lands without Dark Ritual.

@ Cabal Therapy - The real danger I find in running therapy is that the flashback is seldom used. You really want your creatures sticking around. On the otherhand, if they have a card you absolutely must rip from their hand, sacrificing a turn 2 Nezumi or Augur of Skulls is completely acceptable. With Reanimation you can always get them back if need be at a later point.

@ Reanimation - Animate Dead is 2 mana and an enchantment. I'm not so worried about them targeting Animate Dead with enchantment destruction, or the loss of 1 power for the creature you target, it's really the 2 mana that bothers me. Ideally you want Reanimate going off turn 2 paired with a Cabal Therapy or a Duress, after your turn 1 Ostracize. These types of plays are just as game breaking as a turn 1 Hyppie in my experience. Animate dead might work alright if you include Dark Ritual, but I'm not running that :P. If you're targeting a weenie the life loss tends not to make a difference. And if you pick up some fat, you're perfectly willing to take that hit early on for a beater that will most likely win you the game. Again the primary concern I have is keeping the mana-curve low as possible. It helps alot with tempo and it makes it possible to play almost every hand you get. I play atleast 90% of my one land hands. Reanimate is one of the reasons I can do that. In the past, it has carried me the first couple of turns 'til I find a second land.

@ Ostracize - Forgive me if I have harped on the same point too much concerning Legacy being the creature format. My point is that you're considerably more likely than not to pull a creature with Ostracize rather than ending up wasting a turn 1 play. In addition, Ostracize helps out in the early turns quite a bit more than Duress in my opinion. Discard's primary weakness is letting creatures hit the board early on. Ostracize prevents alot of this; paired with Reanimate it is simply good. Making them discard a Mongoose, or any one of a number of other creatures that could come out turn 1 or 2 is an excellent play to start off the game. The few times that it is situational I hardly worry about. Only a few combo decks can go off turn 1 or 2. Flash is 1 and they require a Protean Hulk. Ostracize is nearly as good at disrupting that combo early on as Duress. Belcher is another where it might matter, Duress is obviously and considerably better there. In the very worst case scenario Ostracize lets you peek at their hand and tells you how to play your next couple of turns. On a sidenote, I have included 4 Wrench minds for the sole reason of replacing Ostracize if I judge it to be less than stellar (such as Landstill, Solidarity, Belcher, IggyPop: all fairly good matchups regardless of Ostracize though).

I see your point that it is better to let them tap out for their creature, then destroy it later. This does require you to run removal though (which is just as situational as Ostracize). I dislike adding any large amount of removal to the deck because I find that you begin to rely on a good balance of different types of cards in your hand for it to be effective - i.e. you want some discard, some removal, some land, and a kill condition or 2. I can try to compare this idea with Pox since you're familiar with that deck. Pox doesn't want an abundance of hand, land, or creature destruction. It wants just the right amounts of all of them. If it has that Pox will win the game, but having that with such a diverse number of effects is hard to achieve. Discard doesn't need to achieve this balance, leaving it a more consistent deck than most of the field. Ostracize does let your opponent have tempo in allowing them to keep their mana open for a different turn 1 or 2 play, but there are seldom turn 1 non-creature plays that really hurt Discard. And if you grabbed their creature with Ostracize, it's that more unlikely they have another creature they'll be bringing out in its place for the same mana-cost.

... It's getting really late and I'm exceedingly tired. I hope the above has some coherency to it. I'll write more about the real controversial stuff (read Specter and Ritual) tomorrow :).

A last note: your deck works well in conjunction with all the changes you've made. I don't think I could go with 1 change and not the others. I intend to consider and analyze in greater detail tomorrow the different directions we're pursuing (i.e. consistency versus explosiveness, card-advantage versus tempo, etc.). The distinctions are somewhat grey to me now and our approach is somewhat different in manner. I figure if I can break that down, then a rationale for card choices would make more sense. I'll shutup now as I think I'm beggining to babble.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

One of the five "colors" in Spoils is the Arcanist guild. They're a little bit like U/B, in that their primary specialties are bounce and discard, and the synergies therein.

[Galroth]

I've been testing out Sensei's Diving Top lately... I'm still opposed to running fetchlands, but I think I've come upon a solution that I'd like to hear opinions on.

First, by adding Sensei's Diving Top to the deck, your single land hands are that much more playable, you could probably even drop to 17 or 16 fairly comfortably. Since I'm so opposed to taking a mulligan though, and because I do design Discard for greatest consistency (again this may not be the correct choice), I'm remaining at 18 lands... all basic swamp.

Everyone knows Sensei's thrives on the shuffle effect. Well, we did have 3 Infernal Tutors which give that option. Problem is, if you've got an Infernal Tutor in hand then you don't care too much about it's interaction with Sensei's. Really the top is to find you a Tombstalker or more rack effects when you're without a tutor to do so. I searched Apprentice for black shuffle effects at low casting costs... the list is pretty short and especially so for anything useful.

That's about the time I realized the sweet interaction Sensei's has with Darkblast. If Darkblast is in your graveyard and you're using Sensei's, you can dredge away those top three cards if desired, which is as good if not better than a shuffle effect.

I've been playing with the notion of including Sensei's and Darkblast. Darkblast would probably replace Funeral Charm. Sadly you lose versatility, but I find that I'm usually using Funeral Charm for creature control anyways. Darkblast is better against your problem matchups, worse against Control/Combo. However, I think the loss of Funeral Charm doesn't hurt your Control/Combo matchups that significantly. I was packing Darkblast in my sideboard anyways. I could just switch them to mainboard and the funeral charms into the sideboard.

What else would change to include 3x Sensei's Diving Top. Right now I think I could probably cut a tutor... maybe all of them and up my tombstalker count to 3 atleast, possibly 4. A cut in tutors and the addition of Sensei would probably mean I have to do away with any singleton artifacts which would allow the extra room needed.

I haven't played enough games to be real firm of opinion yet. Thoughts?

[eternaldarkness]

Darkblast sounds like a weak maindeck as its possible too narrow. Now that I think about it Funeral Charm is also too weak. You get versatility true, but for the price of a weak effect. I would cut it for some real removal like contagion.

Sensei's Top should be included. Fetchlands are enough to support it.

[Galroth]

Well...

As anyone reading knows, I've been playing with a variant of Discard that focuses on consistency and quick tempo through a very low mana curve in place of a more classic Discard strategy that employs some more explosive plays via Dark Ritual. While I endorsed this direction for Discard in the past, I'm no longer sure it is correct.

The past few weeks I was putting up some numbers that were disappointing. I also wanted to test the list posted by EternalDarkness.

My experiences:

Sensei's Divining Top is hot. Irregardless of running fetchlands or otherwise. Like in the past I'm still against the use of fetchlands, and I've found that the top really doesn't need fetchlands to still be worth it. Most often I don't need the constant library manipulation the top and fetchlands can produce. Instead, I just need to find one more threat a turn or 2 ahead of when I would have found it. Top is suitable for this purpose.

Infernal Tutor is subpar. It did allow me to run a toolbox. Sadly running the toolbox decreased consistency. Hands with Ensnaring Bridge in them were like a 6 card hand to late late in the game. And then only worth it some of the time. Most of the time I found myself tutoring for The Rack or Tombstalker. The top took care of these needs better because it comes online sooner. Hands with Infernal Tutor were just so much worse and they never panned out 'til turn 5 or so, too late to really make the difference.

Funeral Charm is versatile. But as EternalDarkness mentioned, it's still weak. Yes, it was answer against turn 1 Lackey. Turn 1 Mongoose also, if anyone was ever stupid enough to try that. But beyond that it rarely stood out and wasn't a card I was very happy to draw into.

I've been playing against quite a bit more combo (surprise) lately. And the combo isn't slow controlling Solidarity, which was a wonder match-up for Discard. Even though I expect to obliterate an opponents hand by turn 4 or so, this new wave of combo doesn't wait around that long. It seems I need to do that either sooner, or have Duress or Cabal Therapy to disrupt them in my opening hand. I was losing to many games against combo to be satisfied with Discard's performance.

After a string of these losses I began to consider whether constistency and always eliminating a persons hand by turn 4 was better than the explosive play of Dark Ritual, Duress, Hymn to Tourach. There's no card advantage with that play, but it is crippling and still works magic against quick combo decks.

Yeah, so I tossed back in Dark Ritual and Hypnotic Specter cutting Infernal Tutor and Funeral Charm for the room. I've actually liked it! Dark Ritual has allowed me to drop to 17 lands with the inclusion of Sensei's Diving Top.The extra tempo helps. And a turn 3 Tombstalker after turn 1 and 2 disruption is always fun. Basically I'm beginning to think the number of potential game-breaking plays with Dark Ritual is worth the inconsistency and dead draws it adds. I'm still testing, but thus far I'm happier.

Current List:

Mana (21)
17x Swamp
4x Dark Ritual

Discard (16)
4x Duress
4x Ostracize
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Hymn to Tourach

Creatures (12)
3x Augur of Skulls
2x Nezumi Shortfang
4x Hypnotic Specter
3x Tombstalker

Other (11)
4x The Rack
3x Sensei's Diving Top
4x Reanimate

Ostracize and Reanimate remain in. They're too good to let go.

Thoughts?

[troopatroop]

Funeral Charm is versatile. But as EternalDarkness mentioned, it's still weak. Yes, it was answer against turn 1 Lackey. Turn 1 Mongoose also, if anyone was ever stupid enough to try that. But beyond that it rarely stood out and wasn't a card I was very happy to draw into.

I've been playing against quite a bit more combo (surprise) lately. And the combo isn't slow controlling Solidarity, which was a wonder match-up for Discard. Even though I expect to obliterate an opponents hand by turn 4 or so, this new wave of combo doesn't wait around that long. It seems I need to do that either sooner, or have Duress or Cabal Therapy to disrupt them in my opening hand. I was losing to many games against combo to be satisfied with Discard's performance.

After a string of these losses I began to consider whether constistency and always eliminating a persons hand by turn 4 was better than the explosive play of Dark Ritual, Duress, Hymn to Tourach. There's no card advantage with that play, but it is crippling and still works magic against quick combo decks.


Why is playing Nimble Mongoose a stupid play turn 1? Please explain.

What does discard do against 10 Goblins turn 1?

You play no removal for turn 1 Lackey? Nothing to stop goblins at all?

Seeing as the most popular decks in the format do quite well against this one, why should someone take it to a tournament setting?

[Rabbi Dan]

Why is playing Nimble Mongoose a stupid play turn 1? Please explain.

What does discard do against 10 Goblins turn 1?

You play no removal for turn 1 Lackey? Nothing to stop goblins at all?

Seeing as the most popular decks in the format do quite well against this one, why should someone take it to a tournament setting?

First, pointing out that a deck doesn't currently beat Tier 1 in the "New and Developmental" forum is pretty redundant. However, a couple of these were good questions.

1) I also don't understand why first turn Nimble Mongoose is a poor play.
2) To beat 10 first turn goblins you'd have to: a) run enough blue to support force of will to be burned on mana producers, b) run cheap board sweepers main deck, or c) out race 10 first turn goblins. If this is a qualification for a deck to survive, goblins isn't a viable deck choice in legacy right now, and I don't believe that this is so. Therefore, I think this question is irrelevant. Although if EtW based combo decks become as powerful as predicted right now, goblins may no longer be a tournament winning deck choice!
3) As weak as Funeral Charm is, it may be a necessary metagame choice. You _have_ to have a solution for turn 1 lackey when you're on the draw for a chance to survive in this metagame. Right now the best you can hope for is to get the rest of the goblins out of his hand on your T1, which isn't a realistic goal.
4) Addressed already.

[Galroth]

You play no removal for turn 1 Lackey? Nothing to stop goblins at all?


a) Lacking removal for turn 1 Lackey does not = stopping goblins. Lose the exaggeration/sarcasm and try discussing the matter without the rhetoric. That said having an answer to turn 1 Lackey does go along way towards beating Goblins. Funeral Charm was replaced by Dark Ritual. So I will compare the two (eventually).

If on the play Discard retains Ostracize and Cabal Therapy to pick off Lackey before it hits the board. Funeral Charm would be discounted in the 'on the play' situation because you're not going to wait 'til their turn to play a spell on turn 1 with Discard.

If on the draw Funeral Charm would allow you to remove Lackey where Ostracize and Cabal Therapy do not. However, Dark Ritual, while not removing Lackey allows Discard to lay down a blocker. Admittedly laying down a blocker is a weaker play than removing Lackey, however Dark Ritual allows for more explosive plays which are exactly the types of plays Discard needs to win against Goblins (first turn Seige-gang or Specter; third turn Tombstalker, that type of thing).

Rabbi Dan is absolutely right in saying that empyting there hand of Goblins before Lackey hits is an unrealistic goal. However, a play grabbing a key goblin like Seige-gang, will buy you time. Reanimating it soon after (that turn or later) is a nice step to swing the game in your favor.

Discards weakest match-ups are aggro. Goblins is the premier aggro deck out there. Of course this might be the hardest match-up. Roughly half or more of your sideboard should be dedicated to Goblin hate.


What does discard do against 10 Goblins turn 1?


If on the draw, it loses. Almost any deck that doesn't pack Force of Will or maindeck Pyroclasm loses to this play though. Why you bring up this point is a little confusing to me. Discard has a better combo MU than the majority of the field. The only decks which can boast a significantly better combo match-up are those that pair blue free counters WITH black discard.


Why is playing Nimble Mongoose a stupid play turn 1?

Perhaps this was excessive. In my experience Threshold does not play Nimble Mongoose turn 1. It preferabbly cantrips, or saves for Stifle/StP. Admittedly this depends on the match-up Threshold faces. If you feel this is incorrect then I'll gladly not argue it as this is not the place to. I'll be more careful of my wording in the future without more solid justification. I suppose attempting to stress my point was unnecesarry in order to make said point.


Seeing as the most popular decks in the format do quite well against this one, why should someone take it to a tournament setting?

Goblins is a poor match-up. Devote your board to it and you're still not going to do much better than 60-40. If they've already taken game 1 those are not good odds.

Threshold is not a poor match-up. It goes roughly even in my experience with better odds against UGw than against UGr irregardless of Mystic Enforcer (he's never going to see play unless they topdeck/cantrip into him). While the burn of UGr is adequate to deal with many of Discard's threats.

The plethora of Combo decks out there have a poor match-up against Discard. I can't name a Combo deck that is favored. Likewise Control is favored. Looking at the current Legacy Metagame Forum, the decks which are favored game 1 against Discard (in my experience) are Vial Goblins, UWr Threshold, and Faerie Stompy. Goblins is the only one that is significantly favorable.

[Galroth]

It's been quite some time since I've posted in this thread. I find myself quite bored and somehow alone of this fine Friday night. So I thought I'd post my learnings over the past few months concerning Discard and the many splashes I've attempted.

One card has significantly improved black's discard package. Everyone knows what card it is, Thoughtseize. Arguably it is the best discard spell available now. Perhaps more importantly, it allows many decks to splash discard in a manner so much more effective than previously. The strongest spells before hand were (arguably) Duress, followed by Hymn to Tourach and Cabal Therapy. Most decks could ill-afford to splash for black because they unequipped to support the double black cost for Hymn, or the flashback cost to make Cabal Therapy truly effective. Thoughtseize changes all of this. Primarily black decks are usually short on creature threats and Cabal Therapy was never really an effective choice. Duress and Hymn obviously were, and they found there way into many decks such as Deadguy, Red Death, and Suicide Black. However Duress and Hymn alone weren't enough discard elements to be considered anything more than disruption while those decks beats did the killing. This strategy was notably different than a Discard deck's strategy of using Discard as a weapon through means of The Rack, Nezumi Shortfang, etc. Again, Thoughseize changed this by offering an additional and very efficient discard effect to the previous discard arsenal. Discard decks are better able to support splashes; or from the opposite perspective, decks than once used Discard just for disruption are also better able to use it as a weapon now (though I highly doubt any will). Of course, I started trying every splash under the sun. Not so surprisingly, every one of them had improved.

A Review of the Splashes:

White - In brief the white splash has always been the weakest. It does offer some amazing creature removal in the form of Swords to Plowshares. It also offers Vindicate which is very much needed for basic board control, but is sadly less effective than one would think. I would attribute this to the mana cost and Discard's very low curve which doesn't like supporting multicolored 3cc spells. Jotun Grunt was an interesting option, as he's the right price and Discard is slightly better able to support him than most decks, but it just isn't enough. Truly the white splash quickly converts to a deck like Deadguy which better uses Vindicate, Stp and Grunt.

Green - http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6785&highlight=galroth
Discard became a little more popular with Tarmogoyf. It helps fuel goyfs incredible size. What else does green offer though? Well... any green and black control deck should always consider Pernicious Deeds. It's a good sweeper, but it'll take your kills away just as easily as theres. Really, the addition of green forces on to choose either a more aggressive approach (goyf) or a more controllying approach (pernicious deeds, wall of blossoms). Either way, the natural extension of these two directions lead to far superior decks at what the do. Green Death has an amazing aggro game that utilizes Goyf and amazing creature pump. And the control end has several forms of The Rock. I've had absolutely no success with the green splash using Discard as it's weapon.

The Green and White splashes are by far the worst. The Blue and Red splashes I have had minimal success with. I feel this is in large part due to the curve the Green and White splashes force on to operate on. Red and Blue keep your curve consistenty lower; leading to a quicker tempo and effectively higher threat densisty. Also Blue and Red offer deck manipulation to find those threats once the discard elements have become less useful.

Blue - http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7108
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6195
Blue offers incredible deck manipulation through cantrips. More importantly it offers some of the best creatures Discard can use. First and foremost, Trinket Mage. Really Trinket Mage is the only efficient way to find The Rack of any color. This makes it, in my opinion, the best card of any color to splash. Shadowmage Infiltrator is also noteworthy, but isn't a reason in itsef to run Blue. The Blue splash is interesting in that it kind of ramps up. Once it gets going with some draw and card manipulation, it can push into a really powerful midgame. However, it can struggle right out of the door, especially if it has some intense aggro-pressure in the first few turns.

Red - http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6292
Red has been the most successful splash I've run. The addition of burn helps to control Discards weak game against early creatures. At the same time it is never dead against other matches. Burn also helps to increase Discard's threat density which, given a lack of tutors is very important. What the Red and Blue splashes both suffer from is self-inflicted life loss. Dark Confidant is an obvious inclusion in these splashes, along with fetchlands, along with Thoughtseize. In the red splash I've also inclued Storm World, an excellent weapon, but one more source of self-inflicted damage. Discard likes a quick game, but it doesn't kill quick in the first few turns, it just cripples. Which means the loss of life doesn't convert to a dead opponent like it would with Red Death or like decks. This has shown itself to be this splashes largest problem.

Lessons Learned:

This may seem a bit of a tangent, but I'll try to make it connect. Through my many years of experience with Discard I've learned that you cannot reduce your Threats to roughly less than a third of your deck. You have to keep it high, or no matter how quickly you tear there hand apart, you will not kill them before they recoup. The Red and Blue splash manage to do this through deck manipulation and increased threat counts. However they introduce the problem that any splash is effected by. First a slightly higher curve, where tempo, primarily generated from a very small curve is of utmost importance. Next the previously mentioned loss of life through the addition of fetches and Dark Confidant. In a deck that's a little slow on the kill to begin with... the benefits may not be enough to warrant a splash.

Another consideration is Dark Ritual. The tempo acceleration and back-breaking plays Dark Ritual can create are loss on decks where the triple black mana is of little use in creating a threat. The mono-black builds I run have a bit more discard than other builds at very low casting cost. This usually results in a guarentee of removing the opponents entire hand, where spashes can't really achieve this same effect. This makes better use of The Rack and generally increases the chances of survival for any creatures laid down.

Here's another good thread for near mono-black discard, with I might add, a damn sexy name and a creator I know relishes this archtype near as much as I: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7165

My Current Build:

Mana (21)
17x Swamp
4x Dark Ritual
Discard (20)
4x Thoughtseize
4x Duress
4x Ostracize
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Hymn to Tourach
Threats (19)
4x The Rack
2x Cursed Scroll
4x Reanimate
3x Nezumi Shortfang
3x Hypnotic Specter
3x Tombstalker

Strangely enough, though I've experimented more these past few months than ever, I've come full circle back to within a few cards of my last posted build. I cut Sensei's Diving Top adding in more threats which was the only reason I was using it in the first place. Without the addition of fetches or Confidant it was a bit poor at that job. Augur of Skulls was just too slow. A cool card and maybe it would be cool in a build incorporating Ravenous Rats, Corrupt Court Official and a lot of weenies that also break an opponents hand; however having tested a built like that I found I couldn't make it stronger than this build.

A last idea which I've been toying with - a build incorporating Ensnaring Bridge, Cursed Scroll, Paupers Cage, and Baubles to put up your Bridge. I thought to include Disciple of the Vault at first, and Arcbound Ravager, but that proved little effective. I'll keep searching for ways to make this archtype better. It is my pet deck afterall ;). Let me know if anyone finds some super sweet tech or just a more efficient deck construction. Comments and criticisms welcome.

[Galroth]

I wanted to post an idea I've been working with to see if anyone has some good advice or a creative thought that could benefit what I've come up with.

I should also ask forgiveness for excessively long and frequent posts about an arch-type that is really not so popular.

The List:

MANA (18)
18x Swamp
DISCARD (16)
4x Thoughtseize
4x Duress
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Funeral Charm
KILL (9)
4x The Rack
3x Cursed Scroll
2x Pauper's Cage
SEARCH/DRAW (10)
3x Infernal Tutor
4x Mishra's Bauble
3x Urza's Bauble
OTHER / TOOLBOX (7)
3x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Innocent Blood
1x Terror
1x Zuran Orb
1x Reanimate

This build has a couple of cool interactions that I'm trying to focus it on. First is the deck's interaction with Ensnaring Bridge. This card is beautiful defense against Discard's worst match-up, aggro. The build attempts to drop its hand very quickly, get Ensnaring Bridge up, then sit back as rack effects or cursed scroll kills the opponent off.

The cards that benefit from having little to no hand are: Ensnaring Bridge, Cursed Scroll, and Infernal Tutor. I've tried Infernal Tutor out in old builds, but I found it just didn't sync well with cards like Hypnotic Specter, and especially Tombstalker. Infernal Tutor actually works here though.

Baubles are a way to dump your hand quickly, then replenish it when need be, they also allow to more quickly sift for your kill conditions, which number at a rather disappointing 9 cards. This is my biggest concern. Even with Infernal Tutor and Baubles, the deck kills incredibly slow. Any suggestions to speed it up? I want to remain creatureless, and I also want to keep to a very low cc. I thought about more Pauper's Cages, and even another Ensnaring Bridge (since it is kinda fundamental to the deck) however both cards make it difficult to use Infernal Tutor and Ensnaring Bridge to greatest effect. Cursed Scroll and The Rack are both hot, but unless you see multiples, it really is slow.

Some thoughts:
- Should Ensnaring Bridge be 4x considering I really do want to see 1 in my opening hand, though I really don't want to see 2 in the first 10 cards?
- I want to keep the toolbox small but flexible. Are there any excellent cards which this build should incorporate?
- Most importantly, are there better/more kill conditions which I should be running?
- Dark Ritual: hot or not? I'm cut it because I'm really not sure I need the acceleration here. It seems to benefit me awfully little.

I think there are several other more superb builds of Discard floating around out there, but this was an interesting idea I've been playing with. Any suggestions or help would be much appreciated.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Splash green for goyf, and some better SB

[Cavius The Great]

@Galroth - I really think you should be running something like 4 Quicksand in addition to running swamps. Are you running all swamps for a particular reason? I think you should atleast fit four of something that actually does something. Cabal Pit should also work too since this deck looks like it can gain threshold fairly easily.

[Curby]

Splash green for goyf, and some better SB

Doesn't this site discourage single line posts? What better sideboard, for example? And I don't think Goyf is better than Tombstalker, which is more likely to live through the Terror family (it's black) and EE/Deed/Smother (it's costly). Having an easily-blocked non-trampling 6/7 (assuming someone's using Tribals or Planeswalkers) is probably worth the same as an evasive 5/5 when racing for the mid-game kill.

[Galroth]

@ Kirbysdl - Yeah, it does. But it also allows a little leniency with members whose native language isn't English. I beleive this is Hdh_Cthulhu's situation, so no hard feelings. Again, I was hoping to keep the build I most recently posted, creatureless. Otherwise my first inclusion would be Nezumi Shortfang. He operates just as well behind Ensnaring Bridge as other rack effects.

@ Cavius The Great - Quicksand looks like an interesting option, especially with my artifact count so high, so the colorless mana isn't much of a drawback. I have tested Cabal Pit in previous discard builds, at first I liked it, but overtime I noticed the life I lost just wasn't worth the effect, especially when you're running Tombstalker, which pretty much negates Threshold when he's in your opening hand... and he always comes first.

Again, the latest build I posted suffers from a decreased threat count. It plays the control role fairly well, but if it doesn't see multiple kill conditions, it just doesn't matter, they'll find an answer eventually. Compare this to the build I previously posted: all really undercosted threats which are usually very efficient. Tombstalker for 2, The Rack (1 mana for recurring 3 damage), Reanimate which now has Thoughtseize in addition to Ostracize to grab there best creature... or if they really don't have one, you can use it on your own. The worst kill condition is Cursed Scroll and Hypnotic Specter, both which serve multiple purposes: targeted removal and random discard.

[Curby]

Why is there no love for Wrench Mind? Can the deck simply not support another BB spell, or is it the conditional nature based on artifacts? There's no arguing around the cost, but cards like Duress, Ostracize, and Therapy miss all the time and they're still used, so the downside of Wrench Mind can't be that bad. With upwards of 12 cards (Duress, 'seize, Therapy) that can yank artifacts, this should 2-for-1 more often than not (granted, they can choose what to discard).

Some have suggested that Discard and Rack effects are getting less effective now because competitive decks are using more and more card draw. Have you discard gurus found this to be a problem? If so, Megrim might actually make sense again (gasp!).



Mana (21)
Discard (20)
Threats (19)
2x Cursed Scroll


Could the Cursed Scrolls be replaced with Jittes? The dependency on creatures sucks, but a Jitte is much better at removal, can do twice the damage to the opponent in a single turn, can provide some life gain for emergencies, and uses much less mana. Of course, this wouldn't work in the Bridge list.

[Galroth]

Well... since it's the holidays I thought I'd give everyone a gift. (All lies, I'm actually selfishly promoting my thread in the far off hopes that one day people will actually care about Discard enough that I'll see it pop up in tournament play on a near regular basis.)

I once said the green splash for discard was rather hopeless and that people were better off playing variants like Green Death (or nowaday splashing Tarmogoyf into suicide black seems to be popular). In the sui-black thread, Tacosnape, bane to my general existence, but having remarkably good ideas from time to time, turned me on to an interesting possibility. Late game discard spells are sometimes dead in hand. How does one solve this problem? Well, there are cards like Soul Spike which offer some interesting possibilities. But one card in particular is an excellent output for all these dead cards - Wild Mongrel.

The green splash in Discard would include the obvious Tarmogoyf. He's better in a deck like this than most. Discard doesn't mind the stand off situations Tarmogoyf can bring about, and with a discard package to preemptively defend him, he stays alive pretty well. But would Tarmogoyf alone warrant a whole splash? To my mind no, he's just another huge beater that could just as easily be Tombstalker. But both Tarmogoyf and Wild Mongrel could warrant the splash. Wild Mongrel is another low cc beater who can grow huge at a split second. Add in Dark Confidant, because now all my big threats are only 2cc! And you've got a machine that turns out some massive damage pretty quickly. If you're going to deplete your hand anyways, then there is finally room to fit in some Search/Card Manipulation. Infernal Tutor was nixed because of poor synergy with higher cc spells, but now the curve is practically maxed at 2cc, and now hellbent is easy as can be to hit. Then there is Sensei's Divinig top which is practically a no-brainer with Fetchlands and Dark Confidant in the mix.

I've only been testing the deck for a couple of days now. But it's strong. It can play the beat down role very easily with Goyf and Mongrel beats, and back it up with easy access to a non-creature kill in The Rack - a hard combination to stop. Or it can defend if they've amassed a huge weenie army. Nobody likes to just throw away their creatures to walls like Goyf and Mongrel. And that creature control they had in their opening hand... gone. They'll have to draw into it. And with Infernal Tutor, Dark Confidant, and SDT/fetches, it's pretty easy to see that whatever you need hits the table.

The List

Discard (16)
4x Thoughtseize
4x Duress
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Hymn to Tourach
Threats (16)
4x The Rack
4x Wild Mongrel
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Dark Confidant
Other (9)
3x Infernal Tutor
2x Sensei's Divinig Top
1x Smother
1x Terror
1x Innocent Blood
1x Ensnaring Bridge
Land (19)
19x Assorted

Finally a B/g Discard build that doesn't suck. I'm still not sure it has comparable game to B/r or Mono-b. But then again my testing is really limited so far. I like how easily it is to pull out extra racks with the search ability. And the creatures are simply put insane.

* A sidenote: I am not an Angry Panda... and if you hug me I'll wallop you.

[Clark Kant]

Your discard package and creature base looks good.

But I can't say I like your "Other" cards.

Sensei's Top doesn't belong imo. Confidant is all the draw that you need.

I honestly don't think I like the Infernal Tutor + 1 ofs plan. But Ensnaring Bridge as a one of is very cool.

Here are some 1 ofs you absolutely must be running...
Ghastly Demise - Way superior to Terror. Your yard will be chock full of cards. Being able to kill it the same turn you tutor it since it costs just one mana is a huge bonus.

Reanimate! I can't believe you left the card off. Atleast as a 1 of or 2 of. It's soo much better now than in the original list because...

A.) Goyf is EVERYWHERE.
B.) Thoughtseize, Cabal Therapy, Hymn are all great ways to get it into your opponents yard, not even counting the creature kill.

Also, at the very very least Phyrexian Negator should be a 1 of. It's an awesome card. Burn has lost most of its popularity since it can no longer kill the best creature in the game, Goyf. So against many decks, Negator wins games with no disadvantages.

Also, if you go with the 1 of engine. You absolutely have to be running Berserk. Seriously, Berserk + Goyf or Negator is game over in many situations.

P.S: I really think the deck would be a lot better if it ran removal in place of Cabal Therapy (and Negator or Hyppe in place of The Rack). But then, I guess it would be Green Death.

[rufus]

It seems like discard is a form of disruption - like counterspells - and not really a primary tactic. As such, I'd expect that discard is going to work better with other cards that stand up on their own, and it would make sense to look at it as a GB threshold deck.

Since discard is really built around card advantage, it seems like it would be better to run one of the thresh creatures -- Nimble Mongoose or Werebear instead of Wild Mongrel.

Unearth and/or Street Wraith could be good with the Threshold theme as well.

[lolosoon]

It seems like discard is a form of disruption - like counterspells - and not really a primary tactic.
The problem is, discard beeing proActive and Counterspell ReActive make discard sucks vs TopDeck.

Even early game, with Brainstorm and Sensei's Top around, discard is not that revelant. And we all know they're quite dead draws lateGame.

That's why, whatever the deck be SuiBlack, B/x/x "Rockish" or "Death" builds, I'd stuck with 12 discard spells (spells, not effects. You could always add some Hyppies) as grand maximum. It ensures you turn 1-2 discard and peek at your opponent's hand to gather information about your (and opp's) next plays, while limiting further dead draws thereafter.

[rufus]

With the change to Dreadnought, I'm left wondering about something with

Stife
Trickbind
Pact of Negation
Parallax Nexus
and
Phyrexian Dreadnought

could work out well.

[Galroth]

Well, I wrote a novel... but then accidentally hit the back button and deleted my masterpiece; got fed up with it and abandoned this post 'til futher inspiration. Apologies for a less than prompt response.

--
@ rufus

I have no clue what you're talking about with that dreadnought built. Elaborate on what you would do, right now I'm just confused and wondering why you're trying to integrate it into a discard build.

More general notes about Discard - I think we all know that discard is effective as a splash. It has easily proven itself in many decks and is quite likely the best splash to almost universally battle and beat combo and many forms of control. People consider splashing black in death and taxes just to strengthen their combo match ups. Admittedly it's easier to make a small splash of black then the heavy blue splash required for force of will and daze which are the other major choices to battle combo.

But this thread is dedicated to the development of Discard as a primary strategy to win the game rather than a splash to supplement another strategy. So I'll continue in that direction, though I don't mind hearing people telling me why it won't work. I catch alot of that it seems ;).

I've considered the idea of B/g Thresh before. However, my first question is what does that deck have over U/g/x Thresh. The easy answer is pretty much nothing. Additionally, discard doesn't hit Threshold as quickly as U/g/x does because even though the cards have insanely low casting costs, they do not cantrip. And why would I want WereBear and Mongoose over Mongrel?

You did offer the explanation that Discard is built around Card Advantage - I think this is a bit of a simplification. It is true, but much of the card advantage comes from card quality. Many of the discard effects go 1 for 1 netting you a better hand than your opponent because you took their best card for one of your own mediocre cards. This would almost seem an argument against Mongrel because he needs extra cards to pitch. However, once the opponent has entered top deck mode (that's about turn 4) then your discard spells do not net any card advantage what so ever. They need a different use. Mongrel offers that. Top it off with the added draws Confidant inspires makes for a very efficient creature that is one of the few creatures able to take down a goyf.

@ Clark Kant

Many of your ideas are interesting, some good and some bad. Lets start off with the good ones because... well they're quicker to address.

Good:

Ghastly Demise - Almost strictly better than Terror. The point of running different spot removal spells was so I had a selection of methods to kill a creature because this deck can actually tutor for it.

Berserk - As a 1 of it does deserve a spot. It's just about the last thing your opponent is expecting too. A Berserked Goyf or Mongrel out of the sidelines when they don't have a hand and you're sitting in a stand off because neither side can get through the other's Goyf wall. 8+ trample damage is hot no matter how you look at it. Nice idea.

Bad:

Phyrexian Negator - I love Negator, but he has no place. Even as a 1 of why would you ever tutor for Negator over Goyf, Mongrel, or Confidant? The scenarios are too limited to consider his inclusion. That's the short version. Even though Infernal Tutor allows for a tool box, the tool box needs to stay very small. Honestly you'll probably tutor for 1 of 3 things the majority of the time. Goyf to block opposing critters. Confidant for card advantage. Or The Rack to send damage through. The rest runs the risk of being too cool. Berserk I couldn't pass up though ;).

Reanimate - I run it in mono-black. So why wouldn't I run it atleast as a 1-of here? If I'm going to tutor for a Reanimate to use on a creature in the graveyard, why wouldn't I just tutor up my own Goyf instead? I have that option so Reanimate is less important. It is also less effective because it is not being run along with Ostracize and Dark Ritual. It does offer the option to steal your opponents best creature, but honestly, how often are you going to find a creature in your opponents yard that is bigger than Goyf or offers an ability better than Confidant? As much as I like Reanimate also, it too is out.

A note on removal and why it isn't as important in this build of Discard. Beyond the matter that Cabal Therapy can almost act as removal, removal is less needed because Discard doesn't mind sitting in a passive mode. The deck doesn't rely on Goyf or Mongrel to attack and win the game. It doesn't need to. They can sit back and block all day while The Rack slowly kills your opponent. This is actually great because very often you'll find yourself in Goyf stand offs where neither player can do much until removal is found. This is exactly where Discard wants to be, because it has reach in the form of The Rack. Stands offs are great. That Goyf and Mongrel are actually huge beaters that are hard as hell to stop is icing on the cake. Most of the time however they're just there to act as Moats.

--
Now to the inspiration that finally caused me to re-write this post:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=62925&d=1199250318

This is an auto-include in my monoblack build. I was never satisfied with the two cursed scrolls. And this little hottie can work some pretty intricate wonders. How many turns in a row can the opponent deal with a new Rack slapped down to effect them on their upkeep before they get a new draw. Discard has problems drawing into dead cards late game. This fixes the issue. Discard's threats are hard to kill. I wonder how many decks have 4 artifact removal spells. Not to mention Maralen of the Mornsong will deal them three damage before they can search for removal to get rid of her (if they so choose). It's a good stall card for a turn and a dangerous game you force your opponent to play if she sticks around. When you lay her down your opponent shouldn't have a hand, and hopefully you'll be holding a discard spell or two. So anything they draw they need to play on their turn.

I considered what decks this card would fit into. I tossed a mention of this card in the sui-black thread. It's worthy of a thought, but it probably won't find a home in suicide black. Discard, however, needed a tutor, this will suffice and I imagine it will find a home.

[Willoe]

the problem about Maralen Mornsong is that the opponent can tutor for a STP or whatever removal that can be supported by the few lands the opponent probably already managed to bet on the board. Have you guys tried Encroach?

[Galroth]

I've taken a look at EVERY discard spell. Encroach didn't make the cut. It is too limited in what it hits, and even more important, you don't care that much about making your opponent discard land in the first few turns. I'm happy when they lay down a land making my hymn that more likely to hit their business spells.

And yes, the opponent can STP Maralan before you ever get to draw. But here's the beauty of that - they still lose 3 life before they can find StP, and if it is StP they find you gain 2 life. Really, this is still a worthwhile play.

[matelml]

Or he just finds his LED/Nomad en-kor/High Tide and proceeds to win the game.

edit: Even in the best situation, when your opponent is holding 0 cards and you have discard spells your opponent might just search a Mongoose/Goyf or StP/Bolt. This is not positive for you, since they trade 1 mana for 3.

[Willoe]

Maralen Mornsong can't be good in Legacy. Maybe in Standard where she's 5 damage pr turn (if she also deals combat damage). In Legacy, she's also hurting you. Maybe you can tutor for decent cards every turn, making brainstorms ineffective, Cruel Bargains etc. But if the opponent got at least a single answer to her, you're screwed by losing it. Okay, I'll replace STP with another 1cc removal. Lightning Bolt, there we got it! Almost every noncombo deck that's playing red got a Lightning Bolt MD'ed. Being a rack and a tutor for both makes her practically unplayable. Being nonlegendary and at 2cc or even 1cc and if she made lesser life losses and made the tutor effect limited (by i.e. only searching for creatures), she could have been nutz, but she isn't. Does there exists a card that reads players can't draw? If so, you got yourself a good card.

Ps. I am sad that Encroach doesn't work out for you. Thresh, playing at a relatively low land count, becomes seriously screwed by losing one. Remember that every deck plays nonbasic lands in legacy, if the deck's optimized. I'm of course talking about fetches which make thinning effects. Not to say you should include them though :P

[Galroth]

What good is LED without a hand? High tide? Even Nomads is no exception. And if they are playing combo... you're already won. Would I even lay down Maralen?

Next I can see how Maralen won't have a huge impact, but it will make it's way into certain decks. MBC, Burn with black splash, combo decks?

And what's the problem with losing Maralen as a creature? You buy yourself a turn and deal 3 damage? Is that bad? Discard doesn't survive on its creatures. It buys time. And for 3 mana that's fine by me. Hell I'm always looking for a way to get Ensnaring Bridge in discard.

And I figured the more important question would have been do you lay her down on Turn 1 with a ritual if the option is available.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

And I figured the more important question would have been do you lay her down on Turn 1 with a ritual if the option is available.

No beacause they serach there library for a 1cc destroy target Maralen Mornsong card!
- 1 CA for you 3 dmg for the opponent. Its like a bolt to the dome!

Anyways discard looses against good topdeck. And what does this thing do?

[Galroth]

Maybe I'm not understanding what you're saying too well Cthulhu - and more importantly how it relates to what you quoted.

You do like that at the very minimal it's 1card for 3cc to the dome? Personally, if this is the worst it gets I like it too :)

And I'm not really sure I take your meaning on Discard losing to a good top deck. Discard does lose to a good top deck, the reason being that once in top deck mode half of your cards no longer effect the game state (those being all your discard effects). It's not that discard loses to the good cards that an opponent top decks, rather it's because discard can't top-deck threats and answers at an equal pace with most deck. This is exactly what Maralen fixes. Your threats are cheap, and varied which makes it hard to always top deck the correct answer. Maralen lets you put these into hand unless she is killed immediately. What's not to like again?

What does it matter if they decide to tutor an answer to Maralen? In the meantime it's still been a good card. And if they choose not to answer Maralen it's a mistake. Threats like The Rack occur during the opponents upkeep before they can even draw an answer to it :).

[rufus]

@ rufus

I have no clue what you're talking about with that dreadnought built. Elaborate on what you would do, right now I'm just confused and wondering why you're trying to integrate it into a discard build.

If we look at Discard as a tempo tactic rather than a disruption tactic, then things like Chains of Mephistopholes + Winds of Change or Parallax Nexus + Trickbind which are hand wipers might be more interesting than small-scale disruption.


A completely different take:Counter Spells & Discard Effects- How about running discard creatures for pressure, and counter based control. Force of Will, Pact of Negation, and maybe Daze for preventing the opponent from establishing board position, and then discard effects to offset the card disadvantage.

Something like:
Nezumi Shortfang
Riptide Pilferer
Headhunter
Hypnotic Specter
Maralen of the Mornsong

Force of Will
Pact of Negation
Stifle
Trickbind
Parallax Nexus
Smallpox

Chrome Mox
Lands...

This has the obvious issue that the combat quality of the critters isn't that great -- gobbos are obviously an issue, but both Maralen and the Shortfang can be decent clocks.

[Galroth]

It's time: I've restrained myself long enough. But now I have to unveil the next incarnation of Discard.dec

Mana (21)
17x Swamp
4x Dark Ritual
Discard (20)
4x Thoughtseize
4x Ostrasize
4x Duress
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Hymn to Tourach
Kill (19)
4x The Rack
4x Reanimate
3x Hypnotic Specter
3x Tombstalker
3x Skittering Skirge
2x Bitterblossom

Highlights of this build include Skittering Skirge and Bitterblossom. All other card choices are old revelations.

I'd jump into game theory, but I know how that bores the lot of you (obtuse bricks) - so we'll hop right into card choices.

Exclusions:

Ensnaring Bridge - It's a beautiful card. But at 3cc it's expensive and most definitely not a threat. Ensnaring Bridge wins games when it lands in the right situation, but it's not reliable and negates some of your best threats, i.e. Tombstalker. If I could run search, then I'd include it as my first 1-of. But I don't want to pull this puppy every game. Conclusion: sideboard.

Infernal Tutor - Possibly the best tutor I've found. Beseech the Queen presented an interesting alternate. Unfortunately neither of these cards performed with the intent for which they were included: as game sealers. Neither card would 'get' me to the win, a common theme among my latest list of exclusions.

Cursed Scroll - Targeted removal, artifact damage source, and reach?! The card is good, unfortunately Cursed Scroll has little influence on the game state in the first 4 turns. The first few turns are too precious for discard to afford 4 turns of no effect.

Nezumi Shortfang - This was the hardest choice for me. Rack effects and Discard go hand in hand. Shortfang was made for a deck like discard. But even in an optimal situation spending four mana over two turns for a rack effect isn't fantastic. Nezumi's 3/3 body can be both good and bad. It quickens a kill when the other side of the board is short of baddies to oppose you. But these aren't your problem match-ups. Staring down a Goyf is a different matter. Facin' up to it Nezumi doesn't help the problem match-ups and doesn't effect the game state in the first few critical turns.

Inclusions:

Skittering Skirge - Contentions, I know. So test it. Skittering Skirge comes out early and hits hard. The evasion allows you to push damage through at an early pace setting up a quick clock. The drawback is limited when it replaces Nezumi Shortfang. I'm running 6 other creatures in total. The few times that a conflict comes up, the right choice is obvious. Why isn't this Nantuko Shade? First, shade requires mana on a deck precious short of mana. Your mana investments are better spent early on emptying the opponents hand. In the meantime Skirge can push through damage, while Nantuko Shade has to navigate the opponents board.

Bitterblossom - Faeries are sexy. At worst Bitterblossom blocks their biggest critter for the price of 1 a turn. At best you're flashing back cabal therapies and beating down with flyers. Bitterblossom comes out early, works with Skirge, and actually influences the game.

I've played enough hands to be impressed, then satisfed. I don't think I can do better than this with our current set of cards. That's the short of it. Time for feedback.

[Pienterekaak]

is Zombie Infestation something to look into? it changes your discard cards in 2/2 zombies when your opponent is topdecking

[Tical2000]

It's time: I've restrained myself long enough. But now I have to unveil the next incarnation of Discard.dec

Mana (21)
17x Swamp
4x Dark Ritual
Discard (20)
4x Thoughtseize
4x Ostrasize
4x Duress
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Hymn to Tourach
Kill (19)
4x The Rack
4x Reanimate
3x Hypnotic Specter
3x Tombstalker
3x Skittering Skirge
2x Bitterblossom

Highlights of this build include Skittering Skirge and Bitterblossom. All other card choices are old revelations.

I'd jump into game theory, but I know how that bores the lot of you (obtuse bricks) - so we'll hop right into card choices.

Exclusions:

Ensnaring Bridge - It's a beautiful card. But at 3cc it's expensive and most definitely not a threat. Ensnaring Bridge wins games when it lands in the right situation, but it's not reliable and negates some of your best threats, i.e. Tombstalker. If I could run search, then I'd include it as my first 1-of. But I don't want to pull this puppy every game. Conclusion: sideboard.

Infernal Tutor - Possibly the best tutor I've found. Beseech the Queen presented an interesting alternate. Unfortunately neither of these cards performed with the intent for which they were included: as game sealers. Neither card would 'get' me to the win, a common theme among my latest list of exclusions.

Cursed Scroll - Targeted removal, artifact damage source, and reach?! The card is good, unfortunately Cursed Scroll has little influence on the game state in the first 4 turns. The first few turns are too precious for discard to afford 4 turns of no effect.

Nezumi Shortfang - This was the hardest choice for me. Rack effects and Discard go hand in hand. Shortfang was made for a deck like discard. But even in an optimal situation spending four mana over two turns for a rack effect isn't fantastic. Nezumi's 3/3 body can be both good and bad. It quickens a kill when the other side of the board is short of baddies to oppose you. But these aren't your problem match-ups. Staring down a Goyf is a different matter. Facin' up to it Nezumi doesn't help the problem match-ups and doesn't effect the game state in the first few critical turns.

Inclusions:

Skittering Skirge - Contentions, I know. So test it. Skittering Skirge comes out early and hits hard. The evasion allows you to push damage through at an early pace setting up a quick clock. The drawback is limited when it replaces Nezumi Shortfang. I'm running 6 other creatures in total. The few times that a conflict comes up, the right choice is obvious. Why isn't this Nantuko Shade? First, shade requires mana on a deck precious short of mana. Your mana investments are better spent early on emptying the opponents hand. In the meantime Skirge can push through damage, while Nantuko Shade has to navigate the opponents board.

Bitterblossom - Faeries are sexy. At worst Bitterblossom blocks their biggest critter for the price of 1 a turn. At best you're flashing back cabal therapies and beating down with flyers. Bitterblossom comes out early, works with Skirge, and actually influences the game.

I've played enough hands to be impressed, then satisfed. I don't think I can do better than this with our current set of cards. That's the short of it. Time for feedback.

Is Ostracize ever a dead card for you? Have you tested Dream Salvage?

[zander1]

I like your list, and I like how your creatures are able to walk over the opposing creatures and also can block if it's necessary(Tombstalker, Bitterblossom).
Why did you cut Sensei's Divining Top? I always liked to fetch useless discard spells and lands away and to draw good cards with Confidant.
I also think that you should run at least 4 removal, because your opponent will always be able to play some critters through your discard and there are some creatures you must be able to cope with.
Maybe Smother or Funeral Charm, which can also letyour opponent discard a card at instant speed in his draw step.

[Cait_Sith]

So if your opponent nails a Turn 2 Goyf you cry like a little girl? Your deck needs more actual removal, if even 4 Diabolic Edict.

Also, you might want SOMETHING to help power past clumps of useless draw to find your wincons.

Ever consider Bob?

[Tical2000]

So if your opponent nails a Turn 2 Goyf you cry like a little girl? Your deck needs more actual removal, if even 4 Diabolic Edict.

Also, you might want SOMETHING to help power past clumps of useless draw to find your wincons.

Ever consider Bob?

I know it seems janky but Wall of Souls works wonders against Goyf (if it's not dealt with). It can stall a Goyf until you get the resources to cast a fattie of your own. It also increases the direct damage factor significantly when combined with The Rack, as well, since even when it chump blocks and dies to a 5/6 Goyf that's five damage right to your opponent's dome plus damage prevention.

[Galroth]

More Card Choices:

Ostracize - It's a staple in my deck. This isn't Vintage where half the decks are creatureless. In Legacy you can only name a handful of decks, which never show up in large numbers, that are creatureless. Ostracize is your better turn 1 and 2 play, over Duress when the choice is available. Discard.dec will clear the opponents hand. You're not selecting a single card or two which you don't want to deal with to steal from them, you're going to take all of them eventually. Given this, the primary concern is making sure none of their cards hit the table. Ostracize is key.

Zombie Infestation - I like how this card turns the late game dead cards into useful threats. But it comes online even slower then Cursed Scroll and Nezumi Shortfang. If I had the ability to tutor or sift for a card, then this might be an inclusion as a 1-of. But there are several other cards in the line-up which have strictly more influence in a majority of games than this could have.

Dream Salvage - I have tested this card and it presents an interesting dilemna. One of the reoccuring problems with Discard is the low threat density paired with drawing into dead cards late game. The catch with Dream Salvage is that if we cut threats to include it, then we're more likely to draw into useless cards (including Dream Salvage itself). On the other hand, if we cut discard effects, it's less likely that Dream Salvage will net any signifcant card advantage. It's an interesting catch. I could envision the card finding inclusion in a build incorporating Augur of Skulls and Wrench Mind - where the discard effects are 2 for 1's rather than Duress, Ostracize, and Thoughtseize. If I were to include Dream Salvage it would have to be a full playset. It needs to be in your opening hand for best effect. I found myself playing around the card in order to net card advantage, rather than playing my discard for its greatest effect. Ultimately it just wasn't working out, though I admit by testing was fairly limited and if I were to include the card I'd want to revise the entire build extensively.

Dark Confidant - The same reason he's not included in Burn is near the same reason he's not included here. Andro gives a good account of why Bob shouldn't be included a couple of pages back. He was found wanting.

Sensei's Divining Top - It works best with Fetchlands and Dark Confidant. In my B/r discard burn deck these are auto-includes because you need both a combinatino of burn and discard, and either might be desired at any given time. Being able to select which you need is very important. But in Mono-black you're working off a quicker tempo and don't want to use your first few turns setting this kind of draw/sift up. And when it is set up, you're only interested in finding your threats. Tutors are better for this purpose than top and bob.

** The deck really does play similar to burn in that you can't sacrifice the power, tempo, and consistency of your early game to include late game cards which can bail you out of a failed early game. It's got to be balls to the wall from turn 1. This is why Skittering Skirge and Bitterblossom work and are actally better?! than some very tried and resounding cards like Nezumi Shortfang.

Removal:

I do run removal; pre-emptive 1cc removal! Joking aside to include removal you'd be looking at maybe 4x cards with no ability to search/sift for it. If you can't rely on it, then running it seems fairly pointless.

What happens when Goyf hits the table? I cry; and I race them to the kill like I was already attempting to do. There are counter-measures to Goyf though. Thoughtseize, Ostracize, and Cabal Therapy all target early Tarmogoyf. A third or fourth turn Tombstalker is more than capable of dealing with Tarmogoyf; sometimes Skittering Skirge is as well. Bitterblossom blocks for 1 life a turn. Tarmogoyf is a worry, but there are several more dangerous cards that I spend my time worrying about. Unless it's backed by counters, it's unlikely to see play. A first turn Goblin Lackey is so much more scary. When Goyf became more popular than Lackey I cried for joy. First turn Chalice of the Void is the worst though, especially followed by turn 2 Arc-Slogger.

Why don't I run Bob, Top, Smother, etc...? It's been tried and you'll find that you may as well convert to Sui-black. The deck will play differently (and not for the better). There isn't any half-way between the different styles of play.

[Mordenkaynen]

Sorry if it was already discussed, but can you explain not using extirepate? (In current list.) Can it give advantage in this build and what matches does it fit?

You see, there is another (shady?) way to abuse discard namely using cheapest discard (unmask, for example) and
- pithing needle (turn one unmask + needle on fetchland)
- chains (nonbudget card, heh; use dark rit. and/or petal and bob and you can discard their hand turn one or two + gain crazy CA)
- extirepate (first goyf - into grave, second.. em, there is no second)

I tried it some time ago, but that time I didn't see the usage of reanimate in such a deck (but I tried unearth). Anyway my try showed me that "something is missed".

Here's a list only with chains among those cards:

monoB massive discard chains aggro

16 [A] - Swamp
4 [TP] - Lotus Petal
4 [A] - Dark Ritual

4 [LO] - Thoughtseize
4 [MM] - Unmask
3 [LG] - Chains of Mephistopheles

//Headhunter is too weak. He often doesn't discard. New guy is:
3 [CS] - Stromgald Crusader
4 [RA] - Dark Confidant
4 [FE] - Mindstab Thrull
4 [A] - Hypnotic Specter
3 [FS] - Tombstalker

3 [UL] - Unearth
4 [TP] - Diabolic Edict

SB: 4 [UL] - Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [TP] - Perish
SB: 4 [SK] - Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [GP] - Leyline of the Void

// Some problems vs gobs. Can use Spinning Darkness or simply Engineered Plague
// vs big creature (if problems appear): Meekstone

Well, now I see that Jitte is missed)

[Thehunter820]

More Card Choices:
Removal:
What happens when Goyf hits the table? I cry

Here the best thing I can say is that monoblack isnt the way to go, maybe try some edict's.

[Galroth]

So here's the deal with Goyf - It only hits the table in very favourable circumstances by turn 2. First there is roughly a 40% chance it's in your opponent's opening hand (assuming they're playing with a playset of Goyfs). Next it assumes that if you're on the draw, you didn't play Thoughtseize or Ostracize which are your two best turn 1 1cc plays, or didn't remove it through other means usually including Dark Ritual into Therapy or Hymn). Or if you did, they had counter back-up to stop your discard. If on the play, then it's near inconceivable given two chances to steal Goyf out of their hand, that they are able to lay one down by turn 2. If your opponent has multiple Goyfs in hand the problem becomes more difficult. If Goyf does land Tombstalker or Bitterblossom are satisfactory ways to deal with it.

Goyf is not a concern in contrast to Lackey or Chalice of the Void. Goyf is only more prevalent than either of those cards, which means alot of more harmful weenie decks are not around. The general meta is better suited for Discard becauseof Goyf than previously. Yay for fuckin' Goyf IMO.

I think this may have been stated so many times that it's becoming redundant. Running 3x-4x removal (of any sort) is near pointless in Discard unless there is a way to draw/search/sift into it. Otherwise it's too little to be reliable. Discard isn't meant to be played reactively. It's proactive, and is designed to bend the opponent to your game plan. Sideboard your removal, along with Ensnaring Bridge; it's what comes in game 2 and 3 if there were problems game 1.

You should be racing to the Kill anyways. Discard.dec isn't trying to 'control' the game. It sets up a very unfavorable gamestate for your opponent in the first few turns, then rides out the kill as quickly as possible. Play Pox, Mono-B, or Peacemaker (interesting cool idea) if you're going to add in removal, tutors, etc. I've tested it in so many versions of mono-B discard it's simply ridiculous. I still haven't found any configurations that work better.

*Last note: if you do run removal main-deck, run it in the form of Jitte and up your creature count to accomodate the use of Jitte.

[Galroth]

Discard just got alot better...

Nyxathid :1::b::b:
Creature - Horror (Rare)
When Nyxathid comes into play, choose an opponent.
Nyxathid has -1/-1 for each card in the chosen opponent's hand.
7/7

Outside of The Rack and Tombstalker the threat slots for Discard were always a little weak. Nyxathid is an easy 3x... probable 4x include.

Soon as I can get my hands on a playset I'll be testing out the following configuration:

Mana (22)
18x Swamp
4x Dark Ritual
Discard (20)
4x Thoughtseize
4x Ostrasize
4x Duress
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Hymn to Tourach
Kill (18)
4x The Rack
4x Reanimate
4x Hypnotic Specter
3x Tombstalker
3x Nyxathid

[Valtrix]

So...I never understood why discard would play dark ritual. You're not a fast deck, so why try to play like one? Especially since you're playing the rack, dark ritual creates card disadvantage, which you don't want. I don't particularly like the whole dark rit > hippy either, since they'll probably just have some removal for your creature since you haven't been able to use your discard. I think that you can make your curve low enough that it's just fine to not have that acceleration, because it will hurt you late game. That's just my opinion...I don't like dark ritual :P And I also play BRg discard, so it's a bit different, but I still don't think ritual is the best choice. You want more control not faster control.

I don't think ostracize is a good card maindeck. I would just run more removal that can actually hit creatures that are in play, like diabolic/chainer's edict. You want to have something against creatures that are already in play, because you can't . You don't have to worry about as many dead draws later anyway. After the first few turns any creatures they play will go from their hand to play, and you need to be able to deal with that. It's not okay to not have creature removal in this deck. I think duress is okay though, since it helps you more against combo and control. I played ostracize in the board for discard, and I was usually pretty happy with that choice.

[BlindMage]

I agree about Hyppie and about Dark Ritual. A friend of mine has been testing B/R The Rack on and off for years, and even two or three years ago, hyppie was too slow for legacy. If anything, I think it'd be worse now. The problem with DR in decks like this is that they typically need every ounce of oomph they can muster, which is fine, but it means that cluttering the deck with cards that create card disadvantage is not a good plan.

In addition, my opinion, based on my experience with my friend's deck, is that mono-black is not the way to go. It's too slow, and the potential to draw all finishers (The Rack, etc), and not enough actual discard, or to draw all your discard, but nothing to end the game with is too great. Mono-black discard can also have problems dealing with things that make it past the discard, and in particular has no outs to problematic enchantments. What do you do if your opponent plays Counterbalance on turn 2?

The other argument against mono-black is the lack of any real plan B. What if you get paired against a Loam deck that make The Rack harmless?

In conclusion, the strategy is viable, in my opinion, but it needs a second color, and possibly a third splash (my friend plays B/R/u) to really work.

[Captain Hammer]

Isn't Nezumi Shortfang solid here?

It make Nexyith into a 7/7, beats for 3, and uses a Rack effect to deal three damage to your opponent, so it deals 6 damage a turn. It's basically a 2cc 6/6 with Echo.

I also think that both Tombstalker and Nexyith should be 4x ofs here.

[JohnnyCage]

Why not run like a four of of factory just to have a back up plan.

[Captain Hammer]

IMO, Wasteland > Factory and deserves to be played in this deck.

By blowing up lands, you screw up people's mana development and keep them unable to play out there hand a good bit longer.

This makes your discard as effective as possible.

[JohnnyCage]

IMO, Wasteland > Factory and deserves to be played in this deck.

By blowing up lands, you screw up people's mana development and keep them unable to play out there hand a good bit longer.

This makes your discard as effective as possible.

Lol, ya i assumed u were already playing waste, it is that good, plus if they cant play spells u can make them discard them.

[rufus]

Mana (22)
18x Swamp
4x Dark Ritual
Discard (20)
4x Thoughtseize
4x Ostrasize
4x Duress
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Hymn to Tourach
Kill (18)
4x The Rack
4x Reanimate
4x Hypnotic Specter
3x Tombstalker
3x Nyxathid

I'm not sure what's available to you, but:
I'm not a big fan of The Rack or Dark Ritual. Both have a large likelihood of being dead cards, and you've already got a lot of turn 1 plays in Duress, Cabal Therapy, and Thoughtseize. Ostracize and Reanimate also seem a little weak

You can reasonably expect an opponent to be able to put something into play, so you really want something like Smallpox or Shriekmaw (possibly both) to deal with creatures that are played against you. There are other good choices in black for dealing with critters if you don't like those.

Probably more of a judgement call, but with Nyxathid as a beater, you might be able to ditch the Tombstalkers and play Dark Confidant - not sure whether that's an improvement though.

[BlindMage]

@Wasteland: In sui, land destruction and discard can work well together, since the goal is disruption. However, in this kind of deck, the goal is to just gut the opponent's hand and put them into topdeck mode, then kill them while they don't have answers. Since the goal is to empty their hand, land destruction is counterproductive.

@The Rack: While it can at times be a little hit-or-miss, the sheer damage to mana ratio The Rack provides is pretty much unmatchable in discard. If I could, I would play 10. In addition, even if you can only get them down to ~3 cards in hand, The Rack gives them a choice: play the game and start taking damage, or hold on to their cards and take less.

[Galroth]

BlindMage hit the nail on the head with regard to Wasteland and The Rack. I'll speak to other things that were mentioned.

@ Hypnotic Specter - It's been a staple forever for a reason. It's good; admittedly there are many cards which are better. But a threat, with evasion, with an ability that can realize some serious card advantage makes it all around solid. Now if I were to splash an additional color, then I'd consider other options. But mono-black has no better to afford. In addition, Hypnotic Specter is one of the few options Discard has to take an opponent's land drops. And with the inclusion of Nxyathid, that has become even more important.

@ Dark Ritual - It affords tempo at the expense of card advantage; which on the surface seems like it's contradictory to the entire principle that discard is built on. What a person needs to realize, is that card advantage alone doesn't win a game. Discards card advantage is designed to create an unfavorable game state for the opponent. To this end, your discard is designed to keep their threats from hitting the table, and their answers from addressing your threats. Dark Ritual is needed because it help pull their potential threats from their hand quicker than they are able to lay them down; which is exceedingly important if you're not on the play.

I've tested this deck without Dark Ritual (read the rest of the thread... it's short enough). If you're going to splash a color, then skip Dark Ritual. The real sealer for Dark Ritual was actually the inclusion of Tombstalker. A third turn Tombstalker is game winning when proceeding two turns of taking out any removal they have. Likewise, your optimal turn 2 play is Hyppie + discard.

@ Nezumi - The rat is good and the next on my list for including as a threat. However, it needs to be realized that Shortfang is seldom 6 damage a turn. It's really unlikely that a 3/3 with no evasion is going to touch your opponent. Nezumi comes online slow, and doesn't really have an influence 'til post turn 4.

@ Nyxathid - God this card is Discard's wet dream. It doesn't work in Suicide Black because their game plan is to rely on tempo, lay down a quick threat, and follow it up with disruption. Discard works a bit differently; it clears the opponents hand first, then lays down a threat it can ride to victory. Nyxathid just happens to be a threat that has to be answered in three turns of their top-deck. So hot.

[Curby]

Sorry if it was already discussed, but can you explain not using extirepate? (In current list.) Can it give advantage in this build and what matches does it fit?

You see, there is another (shady?) way to abuse discard namely using cheapest discard (unmask, for example) and
- pithing needle (turn one unmask + needle on fetchland)
- chains (nonbudget card, heh; use dark rit. and/or petal and bob and you can discard their hand turn one or two + gain crazy CA)
- extirepate (first goyf - into grave, second.. em, there is no second)

I tried it some time ago, but that time I didn't see the usage of reanimate in such a deck (but I tried unearth). Anyway my try showed me that "something is missed".


In general we don't need Extirpate because it almost never affects the hand or the board. Sure getting rid of Chalice and Counterbalance will greatly help the outcome, but pulling that off is difficult.

Keep in mind that part of the point of this deck is not giving them the ability to cast relevant threats, and at that point we don't even need to remove their wincon or board control, because they'll be dead before they can stabilize enough.

It's also a good idea to reduce the number of interdependencies in the deck, because we have no draw/sift capability. We can afford to run Cabal Therapy only because we have 12 enablers.

Re: 4 Tombstalkers, probably not. It's rare that we can cast 2 per game, with our lack of card draw and relatively low mana.


Nyxathid just happens to be a threat that has to be answered in three turns of their top-deck. So hot.

Not to rain on the parade too much, but this will seldom swing for 7, just as the Rat seldom does 6/turn. I typically find it difficult to keep my opponent's hand size at 0 with all the card advantage strategies available in the format. I'll be happy with another "effectively 5/5" flier in the deck though.

P.S. Reanimate on Exalted Angel is just tons of fun. =P

EDIT: Did Brainstorm just become Bolt target big black flier? :tongue:

EDIT2: Nope, they put two back before anyone gets priority and state-based effects are checked.

[Moczoc]

With Nyxathid I would play something like this.
It's a list that goes more into the aggro direction, although Dark Ritual is not included. I decided that it would be more worthy so splash for Goyf and Rise//Fall (with 8 Hymn it is much easier to reduce the opponents hand cards in the early game consistenly). And as I have red anyway I replaced the Smothers with Terminate.

Creatures
4 Nyxathid
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Shriekmaw
4 Tombstalker
4 Nezumi Shortfang

Spells
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Rise/Fall
4 Terminate
3 Raven's Crime
3 Duress
3 Thoughtseize

Lands
4 Swamp
4 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Mountain
4 Badlands

The list is untestet, but I'll do that when a new MWS patch comes up ;)

[georgjorge]

@ Hypnotic Specter - It's been a staple forever for a reason. It's good; admittedly there are many cards which are better. But a threat, with evasion, with an ability that can realize some serious card advantage makes it all around solid. Now if I were to splash an additional color, then I'd consider other options. But mono-black has no better to afford. In addition, Hypnotic Specter is one of the few options Discard has to take an opponent's land drops. And with the inclusion of Nxyathid, that has become even more important.

@ Dark Ritual - It affords tempo at the expense of card advantage; which on the surface seems like it's contradictory to the entire principle that discard is built on. What a person needs to realize, is that card advantage alone doesn't win a game. Discards card advantage is designed to create an unfavorable game state for the opponent. To this end, your discard is designed to keep their threats from hitting the table, and their answers from addressing your threats. Dark Ritual is needed because it help pull their potential threats from their hand quicker than they are able to lay them down; which is exceedingly important if you're not on the play.

Actually, Specter hasn't been a staple for at least one and a half year. Outside of Sui Black, and SOME Eva Green builds, it doesn't see play. I understand what you say about using Ritual to get the cards before they are played - but getting them on the fourth turn with Specter doesn't seem to be fast enough at all (chances of getting Specter + Ritual, and your opponent not having the removal that you couldn't get with discard first, are slim).

As to Dark Ritual - could those possibly be Chrome Moxes (replacing lands) ? Especially as you need a delicate balance of discard and threats, and Mox can use up whatever of those cards you have too much of.

[Raindown]

I have played Mono Black Control with good results (besides getting pwned by storm) but I think discard has a similar idea.

I thing i am not seeing in these decks that worries me is acceleration. Nights Whisper or Phex. Arena. IMO I love turn one DR and Arena. That extra card every turn does put a clock on you but fills my hand with answers and kill conditions.

Might be different for discard but for MBC I love the draw.

EDIT:

I have mixed feelings about discard, I'll play test a new deck with a buddy of mine and destroy him. Then a simple $50 discard deck he has will wipe the floor with me lol. By turn 2 I could be playing off the top of my deck.

[Valtrix]

Arena is really good for black. Whisper is simply not worth it though. The effect is too minimal to be worth the slot.

Yeah, Hippie just isn't very good anymore =| Its only good off a turn 1 ritual, and even then, like has been said, the chances of that + no opponent removal is slim.

[Galroth]

Discard should never play Hyppie off a turn one ritual. If you have Hyppie and Ritual in hand, the right play is to spend your first turn examining their hand for removal/counterspells via thoughtseize or duress. Then second turn you drop Hyppie along with another 1cc Discard spell if possible. This talk of first turn Hyppie is poppycock.

[Curby]

Discard should never play Hyppie off a turn one ritual. If you have Hyppie and Ritual in hand, the right play is to spend your first turn examining their hand for removal/counterspells via thoughtseize or duress. Then second turn you drop Hyppie along with another 1cc Discard spell if possible. This talk of first turn Hyppie is poppycock.

Yes. Again, the point of a dedicated discard deck is to wreck their curve and prevent them from being able to play Magic. First turn Hyp not only creates a vulnerable creature, it also keeps their hand untouched for another turn.

Additionally, this isn't MBC, so things like Arena don't work the same. The first few turns are so important for Discard because it must pick its opponent's hand apart to prevent them from entering the game. Setting up for future board control isn't an option because we have so little removal... any threat they put on the board will likely go unanswered, and the only remaining out is a damage race. Sure, we could add cards like Damnation, Smother, etc., but that turns the deck towards MBC, and the topic here is dedicated discard.

[BlindMage]

Seriously, add red. This business of mono-black dedicated discard decks with Hypnotic Specter and Dark Ritual is really outdated. Here is the discard base that you should, in my opinion, play:

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Blightning

Shortlist discard spells include Cabal Therapy and Gerrard's Verdict.

Adding red gives you threats that mono-black just can't match, plus the ability to reach with burn, which coupled with The Rack can result in some startlingly huge reaches (10 or more).

Splash a third color, and you gain outs to Counterbalance and other troubling enchantments, as well as being able to reasonably use Engineered Explosives.

I really think B/R/x is the way to go.

[Moczoc]

I really think B/R/x is the way to go.

Yeah, and start testing (Rise)//Fall. Everyone seems to like Hymn, but no one wants to play (Rise)//Fall. It looks bad on paper, but try it, it is great.

I just tested my list with Ashenmoor Gouger in Nyxatid Slot.
Against opponents who play out their hand fast it sucked very much to draw so many 'dead' discardspells in the lategame.

[BlindMage]

Rise/Fall does look interesting. My friend and I may have to test it in the discard deck we've been developing. It's actually B/R/u, so Rise could be played as well. It's hard to say if it can really cut the mustard, but it looks like it bears testing.

[Mordenkaynen]

Hm.. interesting. But some thoughts in this thread seem like they belong to another.. I mean, of'course since there's no established deck new ideas can make it better but adding burn looks like changing the direction.
"Dedicaded discard" can appreciate Blightning, Fall, may be Storm World, but not burn since it weakens mechanics like ones of The Rack, Storm World, Nezumi, Nyxathid, increase Chalice interruption and IMO weakens aggressive plan.
You know, the power of Thresh is ability to switch from control to aggro and back. Discard's plan (as I understand it) does resemble a wave - disrupt them hard and then try to win. Burn decrease your threat-density. Once they were disrupted, you want to make a clock and swing; relying on burn in increasing your speed is inconsistent because your top-decks will be flooded with mana and discard, so expectation of burn would give quite random results.

In the other hand, Raven's Crime fits the mechanics perfectly. But anyway, it doesn't change the plan - "disrupt then hit". Do you think there can be any alternatives?

One more quick note: manamorphose can be used for inflation of the best parts of discard and threats up to 60 cards.

[BlindMage]

I fail to understand how including burn weakens The Rack. If you're not interested in exploring the design space for Discard offered by the ease of adding colors in Legacy, I think that's a shame, since like I said, I think that's the future direction of the deck. Otherwise it just feels like playing "Discard, circa 1998", with some upgraded cards.

[Mordenkaynen]

No, I didn't mean that adding another color is bad idea. (I don't understand why you have understood it in this way, I've even mentioned manamorphose as an interesting teh).
About burn: I mean if you replace actual threats with burn your chances to run out of gas increases especially vs Chalice.
Although, of'course all this stuff needs testing.
Thing about burn is my IMO. This reminds me old Pox decks which attacked opponent's plan in different ways and but usually failed because of lack of fast finishers and ability of opponent to recover (arena builds died because of arena not seldom). If you have 1-2 burn spells in hand and 1-2 discard spells it can be not enough to enable rack, attack plan of combo/control in enough degree. It's just a theoretical view.

[BlindMage]

Ah, I see. I thought you were talking about burn specifically. Still, I'm forced to disagree with you, and here's why: "traditional" mono-black discard often feels like it has a certain amount of filler; like you add the really good spells, and still need more stuff, so you wind up playing some fairly mediocre cards to, for example, round out your number of discard spells (I'm looking at you, Wrench Mind). In addition there's a lack in mono-black of really fantastic win conditions that aren't The Rack (or Tombstalker), which itself can be unreliable at times if you just don't draw it. I think there's an assumption that adding colors necessitates sacrificing needed discard spells, which is not really true. You only want to play a certain number of discard spells anyway, probably 12, maybe as many as 16. Basically anything beyond that is surplus discard that you'll draw when your opponent's hand is already gone. What that means is that if we assume 20 lands, 16 discard + 4 The Rack still leaves 20 cards that, in mono black, tend to get filled with OK win conditions, excess discard, creature removal, and occasionally draw like Dark Confidant and/or Phyrexian Arena. The deck I just described is not going to cut it in a legacy metagame. It will get bitchslaped by counterbalance, it won't be able to deliver enough damage to landstill before they restabalize... I could go on.

The point is, add red, and think about a third splash. Red gives you the best 3rd discard spell (Blightning) after Thoughtseize and Hymn. 2 colors gives you access to Engineered Explosives to destroy Counterbalance and a host of otherwise troubling permanents. The only real downside is greater vulnerability to Wasteland and Stifle.

In case you care, I've been helping a friend of mine (spiritmage788) develop this deck for more than 3 years now, so I'm not just talking out my rear.

[Curby]

Personally I've also had trouble with mono-black discard, especially if they have their own draw (e.g. Phyrexian Arena), Chalice, or even if they go first. The new 7/7 guy is nice, but I'm not going to live long enough to use him if the other problems aren't solved. And what can the 7/7 do against a White Knight, Sword of Light and Shadow, or Mother of Runes? It's not like he flies...

I'm willing to consider the red splash, and AFAIK Galroth had some pretty positive testing results along these lines, but I just don't see how it would ever work. First of all, if you only have 12-16 discard spells, you won't be able to actually make them discard a lot. As Morden said, you aren't guaranteed to get them into Rack range with so little discard, esp. with all the card drawing shenanigans in Legacy.

Burn works as well as it does because pretty much every card in the deck does the same thing: 3 damage right away. If you see 10 cards in 4 turns, and 3 of those are land, you'll not only have enough for the kill, but you'll be able to do it in those 4 turns (ideally speaking, but it's a reasonable assumption). When you dilute that philosophy, you need other cards that can apply similar pressure, e.g. creatures in Sligh. Creatures need to stick around for a while before they can deal damage, but that's countered by the same card being able to damage the opponent multiple times. A few Burn spells by themselves will not go all the way, but a single creature left unanswered will.

In the case of Burn+Discard, we've diluted Burn's power by not running all burn cards. Compared to pure discard, a deck that also includes a good complement of Burn won't be able to run as much discard, so the opp will still have threats to cast, and staples like The Rack will be less effective.

One other problem with discard is its susceptibility to resolved threats. Once something hits, there's really no good way to get rid of it, as we don't run much removal. However, while burn can certainly handle creatures, using it for that purpose further takes pressure away from their life total. In short, I guess my question is, "How do you win?"

[bowvamp]

What do you guys think of Magnivore? It's a hasted beater that get's bigger every sorcery you use. How about Volrath's Dungeon? You can wipe both of your hands and put a bunch of cards in the yard. Just food for thought!

[No_Life_No_Future]

What do you guys think of Magnivore? It's a hasted beater that get's bigger every sorcery you use. How about Volrath's Dungeon? You can wipe both of your hands and put a bunch of cards in the yard. Just food for thought!

Magnivore is cool... but it has poor synergy with stalker

[Captain Hammer]

Yeah, I think the red splash offers a lot...

Lightning Bolt
Terminate
Blightning
Shamblind Remains

and as always, add green for Kird Ape and Tarmogoyf

[Tacosnape]

If you're splashing -just- red, you really ought to be looking into Magus of the Moon as a sideboard option, also. Not so much because of his synergy with the discard theme, but because decks won't be able to answer him by not having cards in hand.

That said, I think you need white in this deck. There isn't a good "Discard 2 for 2" spell in the game besides Hymn and Gerrard's Verdict, and I would definitely want both as Verdict is incredibly strong with discard's theory of not dropping the threats first. The lifegain will buy you time whilst small threats wail away on you.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Well, again, so much for being a budget deck... But how about a spell base something like this:

4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress (or maybe Cabal Therapy)
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Gerrard's Verdict
4 Blightning
4 The Rack
2 Storm World

4 Terminate
2 Engineered Explosives

4 Dark Confidant
4 Nantuko Shade

*It seems like by splashing a little white and a little red for Verdict and Blightning, this deck can pack a really awesome discard suite, but I'm not really sure what the best win conditions are besides The Rack supplemented by Blightning burn. You could always sideboard Unearth in or something against creature beatdown decks. Anyways, Storm World and Nantuko Shade are probably the wrong cards. A cool sideboard card for a three-color build could be Hide // Seek, although it may prove weak removal since it doesn't actually destroy enchantments & artifacts. Worth a thought though, because the lifegain and search make it versatile. Chains of Mephistopheles could be awesome out of the sideboard too, but damn that shit costs a lot of loot!

Let me know what y'all think, I'm just posting this as a jumping off point for discussion

*I think Tombstalker also bears consideration as a win condition, and Phyrexian Arena just may be better draw than Confidant...

[Skeggi]

In discard, there is no reason to run Nantuko Shade over Nyxalith.

[Maveric78f]

Gerrard's Verdict and storm world are probably bad too. 4*Dark ritual and more kills would be better.

[Curby]

Why not Vindicate over Terminate/Hide/Seek? Also I don't think that Cabal Therapy has enough enablers in this list. Galroth's traditional list ran 4 each of TSieze, Duress, and Ostracize to all but guarantee that Therapy hits. The less 1-for-1 discard you have, the worse it is when one whiffs.

Keep in mind that with a bit more 1-for-1 discard, you could use Wrench Mind without too much trouble. Just lead with a Thoughtseize/Duress and Wrench Mind is all but certain to have a 2-for-1 for BB effect, unless your meta is full of Stax and Affinity. This might enable us to splash just one color and still have three 2-for-1 discard effects.

[Xanthos]

Well since this thread hasn't been updated in a while, I figured I'd throw a new deck list out there. This is pretty much an incorporation of what the last few posts were saying about adding red and white into the deck.

// Lands
3 [R] Badlands
3 [R] Scrubland
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ALA] Swamp (1)

// Creatures
4 [CHK] Nezumi Shortfang
4 [CFX] Nyxathid
4 [FUT] Tombstalker

// Spells
4 [DIS] Rise/Fall
4 [AT] Hymn to Tourach
4 [AP] Gerrard's Verdict
4 [ALA] Blightning
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [AP] Vindicate
4 [TSB] The Rack

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 [FNM] Seal of Cleansing
SB: 4 [PS] Terminate
SB: 3 [10E] Pithing Needle

I don't claim to be a deck building genius, just trying to continue the discussion. In testing I've found that I might need another 1 cc discard spell like Duress or Blackmail. I'm also not sure about the creature base, Hammer mentioned Shambling Remains as an option. I just like having the extra Rack effect. Cutting a color might also help consistency. The idea of running Wrench Mind might not be a bad one with another 1 cc discard spell mentioned earlier. If that's the case, white would have to go.

Despite all this, I've been having a lot of fun with the deck and winning my share of matches. Thanks guys.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Well since this thread hasn't been updated in a while, I figured I'd throw a new deck list out there. This is pretty much an incorporation of what the last few posts were saying about adding red and white into the deck.

// Lands
3 [R] Badlands
3 [R] Scrubland
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ALA] Swamp (1)

// Creatures
4 [CHK] Nezumi Shortfang
4 [CFX] Nyxathid
4 [FUT] Tombstalker

// Spells
4 [DIS] Rise/Fall
4 [AT] Hymn to Tourach
4 [AP] Gerrard's Verdict
4 [ALA] Blightning
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [AP] Vindicate
4 [TSB] The Rack

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 [FNM] Seal of Cleansing
SB: 4 [PS] Terminate
SB: 3 [10E] Pithing Needle

I don't claim to be a deck building genius, just trying to continue the discussion. In testing I've found that I might need another 1 cc discard spell like Duress or Blackmail. I'm also not sure about the creature base, Hammer mentioned Shambling Remains as an option. I just like having the extra Rack effect. Cutting a color might also help consistency. The idea of running Wrench Mind might not be a bad one with another 1 cc discard spell mentioned earlier. If that's the case, white would have to go.

Despite all this, I've been having a lot of fun with the deck and winning my share of matches. Thanks guys.

I so desperately want Nyxathid to prove itself to be really good... I think it just might be.

As far as cutting white, I think that for right now, Gerrard's Verdict and Vindicate are just too strong to get rid of... Verdict, Rise//Fall, Hymn, Blightning, and Wrench Mind are really the only two-for-one discard spells that are worth running, and I think Wrench Mind just doesn't hold a candle to Verdict. The life gain can be very crucial, and your opponents have a strong incentive to discard lands, considering the density of discard spells you're running.

As far as Duress vs. Blackmail, I would actually use Blackmail. It seems like the worse card, but the fact that some folks will actually show you lands when you play it makes it awesome, because you can leave them with the shitty spell they showed and surprise them by actually making them discard the land, and throwing off their tempo. The fact that it gets better the less cards they have in their hand whereas Duress gets worse is also gravy.

I'm not really sold on Nezumi Shortfang, it seems like they would auto-target it with whatever removal they had long before you could get it to flip. I would consider Tidehollow Sculler over Shortfang, but that's only because I have a total soft spot for that card. However, it's really good in theory, and it's better the more discard you run. Even if you can't get WB together to play it on the second turn, I don't see how it stops being good. The argument that it dies really easily to removal is negated by the fact that you can use Sculler to take the removal straight out of their hand.

If you do end up dropping a color, I'd strongly consider adding Dark Ritual + Hyppie Specter.

Anyways, nice to see folks still thinking about the deck. I think I'm gonna mess around with a build as soon as I install MWS.

[bowvamp]

No doubt about it, duress beats blackmail. Unless I've been hiding under a rock that is...
Cutting white is a solid option. I do like gerrard's verdict, but there are other cards to try out instead of it.
This deck reeks vs. Landstill... they drop standstill and your doomed. Tidehollow Sculler has a slight problem with StP and PtE. You either remove the card that is their threat and they StP it, or you remove StP and they play their threat... heck even artifact removal + threat = bad news...
Dark Ritual seems like a must in a deck like this, but hyppie is old news. Run something that actually either is good at discarding or good at damaging, both together was awesome back in '96 or so I'm told. Look at the date. It's 2009.

You haven't even got MWS?! I mean how many cards do you actually own? (or has everything you said been opinions so far?)

[Xanthos]

Here's a possible black/red deck list. Dark ritual might be a possibility. I'm just not sure what to cut. It seems to function pretty well currently. Although I really miss Vindicate.

// Lands
4 [R] Badlands
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [ALA] Swamp (1)
1 [MI] Mountain (2)

// Creatures
4 [CHK] Nezumi Shortfang
4 [CFX] Nyxathid
4 [FUT] Tombstalker

// Spells
4 [DIS] Rise/Fall
4 [AT] Hymn to Tourach
4 [ALA] Blightning
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [PS] Terminate
4 [US] Duress
4 [TSB] The Rack

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

No doubt about it, duress beats blackmail. Unless I've been hiding under a rock that is...
Cutting white is a solid option. I do like gerrard's verdict, but there are other cards to try out instead of it.
This deck reeks vs. Landstill... they drop standstill and your doomed. Tidehollow Sculler has a slight problem with StP and PtE. You either remove the card that is their threat and they StP it, or you remove StP and they play their threat... heck even artifact removal + threat = bad news...
Dark Ritual seems like a must in a deck like this, but hyppie is old news.

You haven't even got MWS?! I mean how many cards do you actually own? (or has everything you said been opinions so far?)

I've played Magic since fucking '96 buddy, back when you hear Hypnotic Specter was so good (it was; it's not any more, so you're right on that one).

Sculler is not good for removing threats if they have removal in their hand. That's just obviously the incorrect choice to make given that situation. However, the fact that this deck plays heavy disruption and light creature removal means it will probably be hard for them to get a threat to stick, and Sculler just may deal some damage. Also, even if they do kill Sculler and get their spell back, you've delayed them from being able to use one of the better spells in their hand, probably buying yourself the time to draw into more discard and/or a bigger threat. And, by forcing them to use their removal on one of your weaker threats, you've depleted the resources they have to deal with your game winners such as Tombstalker and Nyxathid.

As far as Duress VS. Blackmail:

Duress is the better card, on paper. What I was saying is that due to how many discard spells we plan to use, and the fact that we're not running Therapy, Blackmail may be better. In a deck that doesn't use Cabal Therapy, the reveal effect of Duress doesn't really give you any advantage, so let's move on to some other points of comparison. How many restrictions are there on the card you make them discard with Duress? Two: it can't be a creature or a land. How many restrictions are there on Blackmail? One: it has to be one of the three cards they reveal. If they have three cards or less in hand, Blackmail is Thoughtseize without the life loss, and it can make them discard lands. Blackmail is also a good card by virtue of one of the reasons Fact or Fiction is a good card: it forces the opponent to make a decision, which they're very likely to make the wrong way occasionally, even if they're a skilled player. If they show you lands, as I said, it's very often the right choice to make them discard one. Duress will never let you screw your opponent out of a land drop, in a million years. I'm not saying Blackmail is the be-all and end-all; honestly it would be nice if there were a one-mana discard spell that was nicer than Duress OR Blackmail to supplement Thoughtseize, but until that day, think your shit through if you really want to flame me in a fucking forum, so you at least have a more salient argument.

And how many Magic cards do I own: I own cards going back to Revised, which was still on shelves in some places back when I started playing, and from nearly every set in between. I've been playing this damn game since I was about twelve years old, so I think that means I can get by without having MWS and still have enough knowledge about the game to make speculative judgments on decks without necessarily having played them. What's your fucking problem anyways Bowvamp?

[Darkenslight]

In a mono-B list, is there a reason for the lack of Scepter of Fugue? Or am I missing something big? Also, B/R includes Skullscorch for a 2-for-1 discard/burn.

[Valtrix]

Well let's see. I first made my Black/Red discard deck about a year ago, and have been working on it for awhile. I originally decided to make it because it's effectiveness versus cost was pretty reasonable for me at the time. It does pretty well too because I have quite a lot of two-for ones, some reach to get through, and a reasonble amount of threats. One of my biggest problems with straight B/R was that I couldn't deal with counterbalance, which is a problem. So, I thought that white would be a good splash, because then I can get maindeck access to vindicate, which is very woth it in this deck.

Also, I've played with rise // fall, and it's just not good enough. You really want it for the 2-for1 effect, not because the cards are discarded at random. You want it to make your cards like rack/nyxathid/storm world more effective. Yet when it can't hit lands, you're really going to run into a lot of times where it will only make them discard one cards, and sometimes none. Even wrench mind is better in my opinion -- 2 cards almost all the time is better than only getting 1 or 0 because you hit land.

I also think mishra's factory is very good addition in this deck. Your mana requirements are not too intensive. Grab a badlands, maybe another B/x land and you have your mana base, but even then you don't need your splashes all that much. Mishra's factory lets you increase the land count to play three drops with more consistency, while also giving you a chance to deal damage. Discard is very good at slowly picking at the opponent until suddenly they don't have any more life.

One of the challenges of discard is to balance threats/discard/removal. I always want to add more discard, but then I always have to sacrifice elsewhere. With BRW, there are a lot of good discard options, which makes it difficult. ANyway, here's my list:

// Lands
3 [VI] Undiscovered Paradise
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [R] Bayou
1 [R] Scrubland
2 [R] Badlands
3 [7E] Swamp (3)
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

// Creatures
3 [FUT] Tombstalker

// Spells
3 [LG] Storm World
4 [TSB] The Rack
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (3)
4 [ALA] Blightning
4 [BD] Lightning Bolt
4 [OD] Innocent Blood
3 [AP] Phyrexian Arena
3 [AP] Vindicate
2 [AP] Gerrard's verdict

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [9E] Pyroclasm
SB: 1 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 4 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [ARE] Duress

Sideboard is a little meh. I like grip in the board quite a bit, but with white it's possible disenchant would work better. I just like having more outs, and with fetches + undiscovered paradise it's not too hard to get green. I'm not quite sure about undiscovered paradise, but I think it's kind of good for consistency, as well as being useful with stormworld. It's not too much of a drawback, at least with this deck, when you get to three lands you shouldn't want to play any more, at least for awhile. Storm world is crucial if you play red, I think. It ends games very quickly and is just good.

Anyway, thoughts would be nice. I haven't actually gotten to test a BRwg version, but I've played BR quite a bit, and I think adding the extra colors would be the next step for it.

[Galroth]

Looking for input:

I stopped playing my mono-black discard deck after my latest build of suicide black turned out to be strictly superior in every way. However, with the unbanning of entomb, my mind started generating new builds to take advantage of a great search mechanic.

Entomb + Reanimate seemed like a natural fit, but after some testing it really took too much time and space to fit in partial reanimator build into a discard deck and really just made both strategies in-effective. That idea's been tried, so please don't bother to suggest it.

Here's the latest build - Any creativity and/or useful comments would be great.


Discard (15)
4x Thoughtseize
3x Duress
3x Cabal Therapy
4x Hymn to Tourach
1x Raven's Crime
Creatures (13)
3x Hypnotic Specter
3x Nyxathid
3x Tombstalker
3x Bloodpet
1x Extractor Demon
Other (9)
4x The Rack
4x Entomb
1x Syphon Life
Mana (23)
4x Dark Ritual
18x Swamp
1x Dakmor Salvage


Question/Answer

Q. How are you making use of Entomb?
A. Well Entomb is pretty sweet with Raven's Crime and Syphon Life in particular. But it also works out well with Cabal Therapy, Extractor Demon, and Dakmor Salvage if needed. I'd love to see more useful Entomb targets, but I haven't been able to brainstorm anything else really awesome.

Q. Bloodpet - wft mate?
A. I'm on the fence about Bloodpet. Here's why I'm running it: 1) It gives me a viable Therapy Flashback target; 2) it gets Tombstalker, Hypnotic Specter, or Nyxathid online quicker - you never want to spend your third turn playing just Specter or just Nyxathid; 3) if in your opening hand, it helps power out more discard effects quicker; 4) it chump blocks later. Basically I wanted both a creature for chumping and flashing back, and something like lotus petal or chrome mox, to help accelerate into my kill cards. Ravenous Rats & Mesmeric Fiend were my other serious consideration, but didn't have the explosive potential to get Tombstalker, Specter, or Nyxathid onlind a turn sooner. Still not sure it was the right choice.

Q. How is Extractor Demon working for you?
A. I thought it would be an awesome kill for the price of 4 mana (Entomb + Unearth) out of the backfield for 5 damage. Turns out I rarely use it or need it. Most of the time I just eventually find it in my hand at end of the game, never being used. My first two Entomb targets are almost always Syphon Life and Raven's Crime

Q. Speaking of - how are the inclusion of Syphon Life and Raven's Crime?
A. They're fuckin' fantastic! The deck doesn't need anything more than 3 lands to operate off of. Every single land afterwards turns into a discard effect or lifegain+shock. You can always Entomb a Dakmor Salvage to ensure the effect. So far this is the only reason that seems to make an Entomb build worth it. Raven's Crime is great at keeping Nyxathid big when you don't have an active Specter or what not.

Q. So what isn't working out in this deck?
A. Well, I'd really like to fit in a 2nd Raven's Crime. If I find it in my opening hand, along with a Tombstalker, I can never use the Raven's Crime to fuel the Tombstalker out simply because I may have need for Raven's Crime later. Having 2 would circumvent this.

Q. That's it...? I know you're lieing, so what else?
A. Oh. There's also this thing about me not running any creature removal. And now that Ostracize it out, that kinda sucks hard sometimes, but also less than you'd guess. If Chainer's Edict has a less prohibitive flashback cost it might go in. But realistically, there are only a few creatures that really hurt when they hit the board. Tombstalker and Nyxathid are basically bigger than everything else. Instead it's the random Wellwisher that ends up smoking me. Any thoughts on how to shore this weakness up? (No, I'm not cutting 3x Therapy for Snuff Outs). I'm really looking for a good Entomb search target. I don't want to weaken the rest of the gameplan by making room for 4x-6x removal spells.


Help is always appreciated. Thanks peeps.

[Curby]

Heh glad to see that you're still working on the deck. The Entomb tricks seem fun, but I wonder about their effectiveness.

In general, I haven't done much with the deck just because it's so inconsistent. I've even had a combo player pull out a victory because I drew the wrong things. I admit that I tried this pre-Nix-a-Thallid, and the additional fat would certainly help. I'm not able to play much but I look forward to hearing about your testing results. =)

The best bet against Wellwisher is Perish, as she doesn't work by herself. If you're worried about Wellwisher, you're probably also worried about all 20 of her friends giving you angry looks. (Shit, is that a guy on the card?)

[Pneumatiker]

Honestly i don't think my post will help you but here are some tutor targets for Entomb.

Probably too week:
Darkblast
Crippling Fatigue

Probably too expensive:
Exile into Darkness

Probably not what you are looking for:
Stinkweed Imp

[Sevryn]

It doesn't really seem that this deck takes enough advantage of entomb to merit running it.

[Curby]

It doesn't really seem that this deck takes enough advantage of entomb to merit running it.

I was kinda wondering that but Galroth tends to know his black tech so I didn't say anything. =)

@Galroth: Have you had any chance to test further?

[Galroth]

Haven't had enough time to do some more serious testing, but I've still had a number of games played just for fun.

Is Entomb effective enough to merit a spot. I think my answer is unquestionably yes. However, I don't feel like I'm making as much use of it as I could & should be.

One of Discard's classic weaknesses is it's propensity to run out of steam (much like a burn deck). Later on roughly 2/3rds of the deck are dead draws - both the discard effects, and the land drawn in later stages of the game are rarely effective cards. Entomb + Raven's Crime/Syphon Life turn all land draws into a useful effect. Beyond an active Hyppie, Raven's Crime is the best way to keep The Rack and Nyxathid at their full potential. Syphon Life is great just for the 4 point life swing, especially when aggro-decks are Discards greatest burden.

I really considered cutting Entomb and running 3x Raven's Crime and 3x Syphon Life instead. But grabbing the exact card I want, when I want hast justified the disadvantage of getting it with Entomb.

@ Pneumatiker - Thanks for the ideas. Nothing I'm sold on, though a single Darkblast may be worthwhile.

Thought of some other Entomb targets:

- Haakon, Stromgald Scourge
- Akuma, Born of Ash
- Garza's Assassin
- Bridge from Below

None are great. Bridge from Below would require reworking other parts of the deck. Akuma forces me to sac land that I'd rather save in my hand for Raven's Crime and Syphon Life. Haakon is more of a blocker than much else, unless I want to shift my offense by including Knights. Garza actually seems like the best card in that lot. The loss of life is just so prohibitive.

I'd really appreciate any other good ideas for Entomb targets. Like I said, it's been worthwhile so far, but I just want it to do more.

---
Bloodpet... still not sold on that either. Been testing Augur of Skulls instead. Really it doesn't seem to matter. It's one of the weak spots in the deck and everything I've tried just seems underwhelming.

[rufus]

I'd really appreciate any other good ideas for Entomb targets. Like I said, it's been worthwhile so far, but I just want it to do more..

Bloodghast is a little anti-synergetic with retrace but a strong card with stuff like Cabal Therapy. Ichorid might not be too terrible either.

How are dark ritual or the rack working out for you?
Have you considered playing smallpox?

[Mystical_Jackass]

The deck looks outdated. Like a cross between old Sui & Pox.

I know you're playing around with entombing Syphon, dredge, etc. but the question you gotta ask yourself is What can this deck do that will put it above Eva Green, Dark Depths (Bg), and some of the better more effective Pox?

[Galroth]

@ Mystical_Jackass - I ask myself that question a lot. Like for the past 5 years while I've been trying my best to develop this damn pet deck into something reasonably competitive. And you know... if I ever think it does become competitive, I'll make a post in the established decks forum instead of posting here.

To answer your question: What does Discard do better than Eva Green, Dark Depths combo, or Pox? First, I dislike the question. You're asking what 1 deck does that is better in all respects than 3 different decks? Well, it has a better tempo and aggressive game than pox does, but not better than Eva Green. It has strengths over each of those decks and weaknesses over each of those decks. It's hard to say what Discard can do better than all three of those decks, but there is one easy answer. It kicks the shit out of combo better than any other deck with the possible exemption of pure mono-blue control.

I'm surprised you think it looked outdated. Beyond the deck having origins from Ice-Age, it has continually evolved and uses modern cards. Thoughtseize, Nyxathid, Tombstalker, Raven's Crime are all newer cards. The unbanning of Entomb even more so. Maybe I'm failing to understand what you mean. By this standard, I'd call this deck just as outdated as Pox is.

[Mystical_Jackass]

I could deffinitely see that for Combo :)
Eva green splashes green for disenchants and goyf. Pox runs same amount of disruption incorporating removal into the mix, too. BG "Dark Depths" runs cabal therapy/smallpox with 1 turn kill cond. I don't see entombing for a syphon or dredge land is even gonna put it in the same league.. you need some sorta deal breaker like a dark depths or intuition into a Demigod to make the deck feared ;P

[White Shadow]

How are dark ritual or the rack working out for you?
Have you considered playing smallpox?

A classic deck that I made thrived on Dark Ritual in a discard deck very similar to those of this thread.

Honestly, Dark Ritual is one of the more powerful cards in Magic (sometimes horribly underrated). Hypothetically, if Black Lotus cost (1) and gave you only black mana, it would be similar to Dark Ritual. Powerful? Extremely.

In a discard deck, you really really need the tempo that dark ritual can provide on the first turn. Sure, later in the game, a ritual isn't going to help much. However, discard decks are about control within the first few turns. If you don't gain that control, then there won't be many better top deck options by that point in the game.

I know times have changed a lot, but I want to discuss one way that my classic 90's build differs from those of this thread. It's important to think historically, and to not just get your head stuck in the meta game.

My classic build relied on Willow the Wisp and Drudge Skeletons rather than removal like Terror. Regenerating blockers serve a similar purpose as Terror/[Random removal]. They stop your opponent from damaging you. Drudge Skeletons can also attack, which was useful in the 90s - but less so today.

As far as stopping all of the insane creature abilities in the meta, Terror wins on that front.

I'm not at all suggesting that anyone do this, but I'm pointing out the flaws inherent in using just Terror or just regenerating creatures. I guess you could say that I'm generally leaning toward Damnation as a good, solid choice. It doesn't suffer from nonblack, nonartifact problems, and it can clear up a Zoo battlefield nicely. It doesn't even cost that much at 4 mana, and having Dark Rituals only makes it more accessible.

As a side note, I want to emphasize what others have noticed: Hand Destruction needs Sinkholes.

It just isn't enough to merely ruin someone's gas. You can win without gas, but it's harder. You can't win without mana. The combination of hand and judicious land destruction is what makes discard work. I know from experience using this deck. :cool:

A classic "winning" hand destruction deck relied heavily on Sinkholes and Strip Mines. The fact that strip mine is banned in Legacy heavily disrupts discard from working as well as it used to. Anyone who has won a tournament with a discard deck running Strip Mine and Sinkhole should be able to attest to the inherent hand-in-hand relationship between hand and land destruction. One or the other is good, but in combination it can be devastatingly effective.

So, to sum things up, the reason why discard will never be as powerful as it used to is all based on one card - Strip Mine. Without 2 forms of cheap land destruction (Sinkhole, Strip Mine), hand destruction has difficulty disrupting an opponent's tempo during the first few pivotal turns.

And Rain of Tears just isn't a good alternative.

[Galroth]

--------------------------------------------
Quest for the Nihil Stone http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manab.gif
Enchantment http://mtgsalvation.com/images/spoiler/worldwake-rare.gif
Whenever an opponent discards a card, you may put a quest counter on Quest for the Nihil Stone.
At the Beginning of each opponent's upkeep, if that player has no cards in hand and Quest for the Nihil Stone has two quest counters on it, you may have that player lose 5 life.
---------------------------------------------

A more conditional rack effect. Definitely a card that you want to see in your opening hand, so I'll be running a full play-set. What does this do for the rest of the deck.

First of all, instant speed discard is needed for activating Quests which you draw into in the mid to late game. Funeral Charm finds it's way back into discard. This really isn't much of a sacrifice as Funeral Charm will just replace Cabal Therapy. It was really rare to ever use the flashback effect of Therapy. No creature Discard runs is less valuable than a single card discarded via Therapy.

Funeral Charm also doubles as some much needed removal. Admittedly, it only takes out the small critters, but interestingly enough I think those were the most problematic. Those critters that can sit back and win games without attacking: Confidant, Mother of Runes, or god forbid a Wellwisher. If it attacks, then Nyxathid or Tombstalker could deal with it.

Quest also required that the opponent be at zero cards. Unlike the Rack it doesn't do damage when they have 1 or 2 cards in hand. So recurring discard effects are even more important. Hypnotic Specter, Nezumi Shortfang, and Raven's Crime are more important now. I'd say Raven's Crime is actually the most important of these because Specter and Shortfang can be easily dealt with.

I've been sampling some hands with Apprentice. The interesting hands to play are those where I have Quest + two 1cc discard effects in my opening hand, let's say Thoughtseize and Funeral Charm. I wonder what the correct play is. Do you lead with Thoughtseize to make sure that Quest will see play. Or do you go for broke, lead with Quest? This seems to rely on if your on the play or not, and what deck you're up against. The safer play is of course the first. Likely you'll get another chance to make your opponent discard a card. But against quick aggro decks or burn; when you're on the draw I'd go for broke.

I haven't been able to tell if Quest is better against aggro match-ups, or control/combo match-ups yet. It really taxes an opponent if they're at zero cards. Which is great for those aggro matches when you see it in your opening hand, but sucks when drawn in the mid-game. Control might actually posses the card draw to keep it from really influencing the game, but I doubt it. Not enough real testing to form an opinion.

Thoughts on the card?

[Curby]

How does the "control with plenty of draw" hypothetical pan out? I've found that I often have a ton of useless discard spells in the midgame when they're in topdeck mode, and I'm furiously hoping for threats. If they're using cards to draw, that simply brings the discard spells I have anyway online.

[Galroth]

Erm...

Well, here's what I was thinking.

For each of the arch-types (even if this split up is archaic and probably not the most accurate):

Aggro - can't hope to maintain any cards in hand, and really they don't mind, they're going to race Quest for the Nihil Stone anyways.

Combo - is dead anyways, it typically has little card draw, and needs a full hand to combo off anyways. Quest for the Nihil Stone isn't going to make much difference in these MUs.

Control - is the only arch type that could possibly use some sort of draw mechanism to stay above 0 cards, and obviate Quest's effect. Control's threats are generally too slow to race against Quest for the Nihil Stone, so my hypothetical prediction is they'll do what they can to conserve cards. i.e. Make use of tactics like not dropping excess land which you can't pick it out of their hand with Thoughtseize or Duress. Thus a need for recurring discard effects like Raven's Crime to ensure that Quest for the Nihil Stone is dropping them for 5 life a turn.

Again, just hypothetical and depending on the control deck, this may not be the tact any particular deck takes.
Apologies for the lack of clarity.

[EssKay]

How does the "control with plenty of draw" hypothetical pan out? I've found that I often have a ton of useless discard spells in the midgame when they're in topdeck mode, and I'm furiously hoping for threats. If they're using cards to draw, that simply brings the discard spells I have anyway online.

Would Insidious Dreams not be a good cure for this situation? I know the casting cost makes it a terrible opening draw, but it could be so good in the mid-game that it might warrant a 2-of.

[Curby]

@esskay: Unfortunately not. That card is horrible card disadvantage. Having a hand represents options that you can cast then and there. Sculpting the topdeck, unless you're going to combo off it, requires the ability to predict the future and know exactly what card you'll need when. In fact I'd argue that it's the deck's main problem:

Galroth asked me what exactly I was asking in my post above and if he addressed it. I guess my original question kinda gets at this: Some decks have a very clear purpose, which makes them easy to develop. Burn is perhaps the purest expression of single mindedness, which is why Burn threads inevitably rehash the same issues ("I want to run Hellspark Elemental!").

What's Discard's purpose? It's not really to make them discard cards, because it doesn't lock them out absolutely as a Stax lock does, nor does it affect the board state at all like Stax disruption does or their life total as Zoo's spells do. At the same time, it's our main form of disruption and helps our kill conditions so it needs to be a large part of the deck. A large part which, unfortunately, evidence shows is not very effective. They start topdecking, and we draw Duresses. We draw too few discard spells followed by useless Racks, and their turn-1 Kird Ape overruns us. As I implied above to esskay, this deck needs not only to be stacked but to be stacked by a prescient player, and that's a problem.

In the end, we're fighting a 3-front war: keeping their hand size down to limit their options, handling resolved threats that are cast early or topdecked late, and finding a way to kill them that will succeed even if the first two goals are not reached absolutely. If we could ensure board control against early and topdecked threats, we don't need to keep them at 0 cards and eventually our threats will bring them down. If we can ensure 0 cards in hand, we don't need absolute board control because our Rack effects can race almost anything. But we can't ensure either state, which makes the last piece, the actual kill, that much harder to achieve.

I've been an advocate of x-for-1s like Wrench Mind, which seems essential in the midgame when control and aggro-control players may attempt to stockpile land. Raven's Crime is too slow when we often have under 20 land in the deck, no draw acceleration, and no land recursion. It should definitely be used, but I don't see it as enough to reliably grant inevitability for Stone, and a kill condition that doesn't reliably kill isn't very useful.

In the MBA thread you've posted about how some Suicide decks are balls to the wall aggro, and some have a much more controlling bias. How does this apply to discard? What are the ways that discard can approach the game and its role in it, and how can we narrow our focus to do any one thing well? Alternately, is the entire archetype built on a flawed premise that it can either overcome to problems above or be effective in spite of them?

I haven't had time to playtest recently, but this is a fundamental problem that I noticed when I did play discard, and I don't think has been addressed.

I think it would be helpful to first consider some updated MU analysis, which would lead into a better understanding of how to address the above problem. Against Zoo, the ability to hit them with a T1 Ostracize to prevent them from landing a 1-drop no longer works as they have 12ish 1-CMC critters and a host of burn/removal. In other words, things are going to get through and we'll need to race or control the swarm. How do you play this inevitable MU and what's your confidence in its outcome?

LftL decks are also huge now, and there's an obvious problem posed by the namesake card. We should definitely address and analyze the main archetypes there. Is Extirpate the only answer?

[EssKay]

I see what you're saying, but I don't think that you have to combo off the top few cards or completely predict the game state for something like Dreams to be useful. When you run a lot of something conditional like land destruction or discard, somehow avoiding it in the mid-late game is important. The problem with discard is that a lot of decks go into topdeck mode on their own after the first few turns. Besides ruining their opening hand, you need some way to put them on a fast clock. I would gladly toss a couple redundant discard spells to have a Tombstalker and Rack on top of my deck.

Of course, Dreams may not be the way to go just because of the high casting cost, but it does have pretty sick synergy with Tombstalker.

[Galroth]

This is the granddaddy of all uber thread necros. But I didn't want to create a new thread and lose some discussion that is still surprisingly relevant. (Mods - if you want me to create a new thread, let me know.) I stopped playing MTG about the time Hearthstone became more convenient, but I've continually kept my eye on new expansions. In that time a couple of gems have surfaced that I believe push a dedicated discard strategy from a pet deck to a dangerous competitive deck.

Two cards stand out:

Shrieking Affliction - The MVP of discard has always been The Rack. I used to consider any game with double-rack in my opening hand an auto-win. The damage to mana ratio of this card may be the best in the game. Affliction has effectively doubled the number of Racks that you run.
Asylum Visitor (http://www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/shadows-over-innistrad/26792-asylum-visitor) - One of the latest reveals from Shadows of Innistrad. This card is a perfect creature for the dedicated discard deck: low curve, a great draw mechanic, and excellent damage. You really can't ask for more. Obvious 4x auto-include.


Here's what I'll be running:

Discard (15)
4x Thoughtseize
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Raven's Crime
4x Hymn to Tourach
Threats (23)
4x The Rack
4x Shrieking Affliction
3x Reanimate
4x Dark Confidant
4x Asylum Visitor
4x Nyxathid
Mana (22)
4x Dark Ritual
18x Swamp



The weak slot is Reanimate. Sometimes it's an absolute MVP. But could easily be replaced by some spot removal or Liliana. I consider it a meta-specific slot. The deck still has glaring weaknesses that can be hated on. CotV is a b**** if you're not grabbing it out of their hand on turn 1. And drawing into more discard in the late game doesn't feel like a useful draw, even if it's insurance that your opponent can't build their hand back up. But overall, I believe discard is primed for a resurgence into the scene.

End note: While I know this is a Legacy forum, this deck is easily ported over to Modern. Hymns and Rituals are the only cards you need to replace. I don't follow the Modern meta much, but I could see it having relatively more strength in a slower format.

[cartoonist]

So...Legacy 8 Rack? I'd lose the Reanimates for Funeral Charms. Sideboard them if you want, but they shouldn't be part of the game 1 plan. Ensnaring Bridge was a way to slow down opponents, but since you're looking to add beatdown pressure, a Tombstalker or Gurmag Angler option should replace Asylum Visitor. I just don't see Visitor having enough of an immediate impact. Deathrite Shaman goes to town in a deck like this, and a Dakmor Salvage or two helps recur Raven's Crime and feed that Shaman.

[Captain Hammer]

This is the granddaddy of all uber thread necros. But I didn't want to create a new thread and lose some discussion that is still surprisingly relevant. (Mods - if you want me to create a new thread, let me know.) I stopped playing MTG about the time Hearthstone became more convenient, but I've continually kept my eye on new expansions. In that time a couple of gems have surfaced that I believe push a dedicated discard strategy from a pet deck to a dangerous competitive deck.

Two cards stand out:

Shrieking Affliction - The MVP of discard has always been The Rack. I used to consider any game with double-rack in my opening hand an auto-win. The damage to mana ratio of this card may be the best in the game. Affliction has effectively doubled the number of Racks that you run.
Asylum Visitor (http://www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/shadows-over-innistrad/26792-asylum-visitor) - One of the latest reveals from Shadows of Innistrad. This card is a perfect creature for the dedicated discard deck: low curve, a great draw mechanic, and excellent damage. You really can't ask for more. Obvious 4x auto-include.


Awesome necro. Shrieking Affliction is the perfect addition to this deck.

I think the flaw with a deck like this is resolving enough discard spells to be able to empty your opponents hand and being able to deal with the threats your opponents cast before you're able to empty their hand.

There are some great ways to do that, but they require you to not play creatures yourself with the exception of classic pox creatures like Mishra's Factory, Mutavault (paired with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and/or Crucible of Worlds), Chimeric Idol, Phyrexian Totem, Nether Spirit or Haunted Platemail.

By opting to play threats like those (or honestly, with 8 The Rack effects, you barely need to play any additional threats at all), you can utilize the below cards the completely shut down any and all creature based decks in the format.

Noetic Scales
Liliana of the Veil
Smallpox
Pox
Innocent Blood
Wretched Banquet
Geth's Verdict
Ensnaring Bridge
Damnation


Bottled Cloister is great to pair with cards like Ensnaring Bridge and Noetic Scales.

In addition to utilizing some of the cards above to shut down your opponent's threats, below are some excellent way to empty your opponents hand of everything very quickly and make use of these emptied hands.

Liliana of the veil
Bottomless Pit
Oppression
Necrogen Mists
Unburden
Uba Mask
Null Brooch
Pox
Smallpox


There's definitely a competitive deck out there somewhere utilizing some combination of the above cards. Here's a potential list...


4x Smallpox
4x Pox
3x Raven's Crime
4x Hymn to Tourach

4x The Rack
4x Shrieking Affliction
3x Noetic Scales
4x Liliana of the Veil
4x Phyrexian Totem

4x Dark Ritual
2x Mishra's Factory
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
17x Swamp

As this is slower more controllish deck, some Rachet Bombs to give you an easy way to blow up your opponent's resolved Chalice of the Voids and other threats would be very helpful as well.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Needs more Liliana of the Veil. About 4 more... And man-lands and Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth.

[Dice_Box]

Needs more Chains of Mephistopheles.

[Curby]

The deck still has glaring weaknesses that can be hated on. CotV is a b**** if you're not grabbing it out of their hand on turn 1. And drawing into more discard in the late game doesn't feel like a useful draw, even if it's insurance that your opponent can't build their hand back up. But overall, I believe discard is primed for a resurgence into the scene.

Hey Galroth, great to see you're still waving the discard flag. The problems with the deck are the above, not the lack of Racks or Asylum Visitors. I'd suggest Tops and fetches, which open you up to splash options to deal with resolved enchantments and artifacts. You're going to need to resolve these issues before Discard is a viable deck in competitive Legacy, and IMO the new printings aren't going to do that.

Compare to The Gate, which has many of the same problems. It can discard, but it can't disenchant. It can draw its removal against an empty board, or its discard against a hellbent opponent, with little way to control the topdeck or search/sift for the right cards. Green was added to help with some of these issues, though ultimately there hasn't been a ton of development recently.

[Captain Hammer]

I think this might be the correct route to take the deck. The reason I say that is that in this list, many cards serve double duty as both discard and removal...


Discard + Removal + Win Condition
4x Smallpox
4x Pox
4x Liliana of the Veil

Mana + Win Condition
0x Phyrexian Totem
4x Mishra's Factory

Pure Win Conditions
4x The Rack
4x Shrieking Affliction

Pure Discard
4x Raven's Crime
0x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Hymn to Tourach

Pure Removal
3x Innocent Blood
3x Noetic Scales

Mana
2x Dark Ritual
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
17x Swamp

By ensuring that so many cards in the deck can play multiple roles, the deck ends up having lots of versatility.

Total Number of Discard Spells - 20
Total Number of Removal Spells - 18
Total Number of Win Conditions - 12
Total Number of Mana Sources - 26

The Mana Curve is very smooth as well...
1cc - 17
2cc - 8
3cc - 8
4cc - 3

[LegacyIsAnEternalFormat]

Here is my Legacy BW 8Rack deck:

Mana(20)
4x Marsh Flats
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Mishra's Factory
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3x Swamp
2x Scrubland


Discard(21)
4x Thoughtseize
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Gerrard's Verdict
4x Liliana of the Veil
1x Raven's Crime

Removal(10)
4x Path to Exile
3x Vindicate
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Pithing Needle
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

8Rack
4x The Rack
4x Shrieking Affliction

Filtering
1x Sensei's Divining Top

Sideboard(15)
3x Rest in Peace
2x Rule of Law
2x Pithing Needle
2x Null Rod
2x Extirpate
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Vindicate
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Ensnaring Bridge

The white splash is for better removal, Gerrard's Verdict, and better sideboard options.

Here are explanations of some of my card choices:

Path to Exile- I can't afford to give my opponent life with Swords to Plowshares. This deck doesn't go over the top with damage so every point of life counts.

Sensei's Divining Top- This is really good late game where you want to draw as much removal and damage sources as possible instead of drawing useless discard. It gets even better with fetchlands.

The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale and Toxic Deluge- I don't have any creatures in the deck so these cards are entirely one-sided.

Pithing Needle- Think of this as extra removal. It stops so much in legacy for just 1 colorless mana that I decided to run a 3-1 split between this and Vindicate.