[OLD] UGb Threshold

[Adan]

I played this yesterday..

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Daze
3 Counterbalance
2 Stifle
2 Thoughtseize
1 Engineered Explosives

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Island

Sideboard

4 Leyline of the Void
3 Engineered Plague
2 Pithing Needle
2 Threads of Disloyalty
2 Krosan Grip
1 Thoughtseize
1 Stifle

Thoughts on the deck:

-The manabase was very good. I boarded Island out every round except the one where I played against GW Stax.
-Engineered Explosives is better than I thought it would be. Definetly should be at least 2 in the 75.
-Boarded Nimble Mongoose out a lot. I suppose it's necesary, but it's pretty bad in many matchups.
-Everybody played around Stifle by cracking fetchlands while I was tapped out. Then when they'd Brainstorm or use Top they wouldn't have a shuffle effect. Stifle must be unreal if it makes people do that. However, I don't know if I need to play it because everybody plays around it anyways. But those slots have to be a blue card.
-Thoughtseize is unreal good.

Having not played the format since Flash was legal, I went with a deck that had already been played to sucess. However, I'm not sure if the changes I made were good or bad. I wasn't sure where to post it, so I posted it here.

So you was faster than me... Maybe. I also planned to play UGbw, just to have StoPs.

It's quite similar to your list:

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [A] Tropical Island
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [B] Underground Sea
2 [B] Tundra

// Creatures
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [LRW] Ponder
3 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [DIS] Trygon Predator
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [FUT] Yixlid Jailer
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives

But actually, this is not my own shit. I think I have to "credit" this guy:

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=12277

But Stifles are crap. I don't know what they are useful for. Manadenial makes no sense since you don't play Waste-effects. Ang against combo? Lol, NQG eats combo for Breakfast, no matter what build, no matter whether you play Stifle or not.

[Liek]

OMS was playing almost Patrick Chapin's list, which I helped develop and test for worlds </shameless self promotion>.

Without Stifle your maindeck blue card count is pretty low. Has that been a problem? (on second inspection, you're at 19, I'm at 20. Not too big of a difference.) I agree that Stifle isn't very good.

Trygon Predator seems insane. I'll have to try that if I play the deck again.

I have no idea about how this format works, but is Jailer better than Leyline?

Do we need to have any cards for the Blood Moon deck, or is that not a real deck?

[Dilettante]

OMS was playing almost Patrick Chapin's list, which I helped develop and test for worlds </shameless self promotion>.

Without Stifle your maindeck blue card count is pretty low. Has that been a problem? (on second inspection, you're at 19, I'm at 20. Not too big of a difference.) I agree that Stifle isn't very good.

Trygon Predator seems insane. I'll have to try that if I play the deck again.

I have no idea about how this format works, but is Jailer better than Leyline?

Do we need to have any cards for the Blood Moon deck, or is that not a real deck?

Not really, if you are thinking of Jailer for the Ichorid matchup... because these days, they are prepared for them... with Darkblasts to draw/quickiedredge into. The format does revolve around a lot of cards with 1 toughness...

[Adan]

Not really, if you are thinking of Jailer for the Ichorid matchup... because these days, they are prepared for them... with Darkblasts to draw/quickiedredge into. The format does revolve around a lot of cards with 1 toughness...

Oh yeah, Darkblast is a huge reason to run Ley-Lines over Jailers.

The reason why I decided to play Jailers is that Jailers disrupt Ichorid and Cephalid Breakfast, being able to apply some beatz himself and not stuck in the hand like Leyline when he get's bounced. Leylines also increase the manacurve, which might be unfavourable.

Jailer has also got the advantage that he's also a midgame solution that can eventually be searched via cantrips. Try to do that with the 4-Mana-Leyline.

I have to mention that I "stole" the Trygon Predators from goobafish because I thought about our random Stax- and Affinity-infested meta. In such a meta they are ridiculously good, but I think they can make way for... *insert random useful card* in a *insert random archetype*-Meta.

Blood Moon? Didn't thought about that. My "old" list (2 pages before) ran maindeck Repeals, so bouncing Blood Moon and then thoughtseizing them was not that huge problem...

But if you are worried about Blood Moon, maybe exchange the Trygon Predators with Hydroblasts. Hm, Annul could also be quite techy, though it sounds gay.

The "blue-cards-count" might be correct, but I didn't noticed it during the tournament...

[Dilettante]

If you want to make Jailers much more effective against Ichorid, it is all in how you handle your cards and present yourself... Drop/flash a Leyline when you swap cards and keep the number of cards swapped low.... say five, the other four being face-down Jailers... Your opponent will juke left and you run right.

[kikkofrio]

But you have to consider that jailer doesn't stop wasteland-recurision by crucible, that is one of the most daungerous weakness of black-threshold. Your mana base isn't so solid and you don't play neither stifle (like tempo version) nor needle (like ugw).

If you want to play jailer at all costs, you should spilt them with extirpate (like hybrid shit does).

[Thehunter820]

I'm considering gettin the cards for a thresh deck, while I think im going to go with Ugw, im still considering Ugb, as its pretty nice too, now I think I have a fairly good idea of what's needed and how to play it and all, but I was wondering how come ghastly demise isnt run by more people, the only weaknesses I can find is that its not that great for the first 2 turns, which could mean u wudnt have an answer for lackey right away but im sure you could have something else in hand.

[Adan]

But you have to consider that jailer doesn't stop wasteland-recurision by crucible, that is one of the most daungerous weakness of black-threshold. Your mana base isn't so solid and you don't play neither stifle (like tempo version) nor needle (like ugw).

If you want to play jailer at all costs, you should spilt them with extirpate (like hybrid shit does).

Well, I DO play a 3/3 split of Extirpate and Jailer. That's why I don't need Leylines imo.
Those are solutions I don't HAVE TO mulligan for. That's the advantage. But if you are talking about Waste-Lock, you have to keep in mind that that is ALWAYS bad for NQG, no matter which build unless you have a Pithing Needle out (which could be played by every build).

[fetchesbasiclands]

I'm considering gettin the cards for a thresh deck, while I think im going to go with Ugw, im still considering Ugb, as its pretty nice too, now I think I have a fairly good idea of what's needed and how to play it and all, but I was wondering how come ghastly demise isnt run by more people, the only weaknesses I can find is that its not that great for the first 2 turns, which could mean u wudnt have an answer for lackey right away but im sure you could have something else in hand.
Ghastly Demise is almost stricktly inferior to Smother,which handles more threats than Demise and isn't affected by your graveyard.I can't think of a single creature in the current meta that Demise could kill and Smother couldn't.Maybe it could be played as Smother no:5 though.

[Nihil Credo]

Ghastly Demise is almost stricktly inferior to Smother
Except for that 50% discount on mana cost, you mean?

[fetchesbasiclands]

Except for that 50% discount on mana cost, you mean?
Yeah,that's right.I would run Smother anyhow in almost any case,since it deals with Bobs etc..And it is also guaranteed to kill your opponents Goyfs,Noughts and whatever no matter how much cards in your grave.

[Thehunter820]

Ghastly Demise is almost stricktly inferior to Smother,which handles more threats than Demise and isn't affected by your graveyard.I can't think of a single creature in the current meta that Demise could kill and Smother couldn't.Maybe it could be played as Smother no:5 though.

Oh no, I wasnt saying to use in place of smother, that card is set in stone, but I've seen ppl using other removal past smother that wasnt ghastly demise, and I was just wondering the reasoning

[Dilettante]

Oh no, I wasnt saying to use in place of smother, that card is set in stone, but I've seen ppl using other removal past smother that wasnt ghastly demise, and I was just wondering the reasoning


Here's a cut-and-paste I put on another thread comparing Shriekmaw / Terror to Smother...
Shriekmaw / Terror
Rakdos Pit-Dragon
Arc-slogger
Sower of Temptation
Exalted Angel
Gathan Raiders
Auriok Salvagers
Silvos, Rogue Elemental
Siege-Gang Commander
Ravenous Baloth
Phantom Nishoba

Smother
Psychatog
Arcbound Ravager
Nantuko Shade
Dark Confidant
Phyrexian Negator
Hypnotic Specter
Withered Wretch
Mishra's Factory
Shadowmage Infiltrator
Chimeric Idol
Phyrexian Dreadnought


For an alternate comparison between Shriekmaw / Terror vs. Ghastly Demise in the first few turns, we would have to consider the differences in tempo. I'll mark (IMO) tempo advantage with * as opposed to kill ability, a rough estimate of when to expect something to come out, like Dragon Stompy powering out Arc-Slogger on turn 1-2. Something to note is that Ghastly Demise still allows regeneration.

Shriekmaw / Terror
Tarmogoyf*
Gathan Raiders*
Arc-Slogger*
Knight of the Holy Nimbus
Silvos, Rogue Elemental
Fledgling Dragon*
Phantom Nishoba*
Yavimaya Enchantress
Serendib Efreet*

Ghastly Demise
Goblin Lackey*
Goblin Welder*
Mishra's Factory
Chimeric Idol
Silent Arbiter
Savannah Lions*
Jungle Lion*
Jackal Pup*
Grim Lavamancer*

Then there's Diabolic Edict... I consider it better than either of the above on top of Smother. Here are the reasons:

Nimble Mongoose
Troll Ascetic
Simian Sky Swallower
Silhana Ledgewalker
Plated Slagwurm
Dark Confidant
Paladin En-Vec
Akroma, Angel of Wrath
Phyrexian Dreadnought
Sutured Ghoul
Hypnotic Specter
Nantuko Shade

[Zach Tartell]

Yavimaya Enchantress


Is that really worth worrying about? I mean, are we all on the same page when we thing "Yavimaya Enchantress?"

I'm bringing UGb thresh to the Hadley tournament in a week, since I think that it's probably the best of all (in respect to mirrors). Here's what I'm thinking, since I expect Thresh, Dragon Stompy, and Stax (unless everyone's lying about what'll be there):

Land:
1 Swamp
1 Forest (using the prayer method for fetching it)
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand

Creatures:
3 Sea Drake
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark Confidant
2 Shreikmaw

Spells and such:
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Sensei's Diving Top
3 Counterbalance
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize (in reality 2 Duress 2 Throughseize, but I reckon I might be able to pick up two at the site or steal two from teammates)

Sideboard:
3 Krosan Grip
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Yixlid Jailer / Tormod's Crypt / Extirpate (I need feedback on this slot)
3 Something (Engineered Plague, more artifact hate, more hydroblasts or something, or spell snares or stifles for combo maybe)

My reasoning on the Cabal Therapys in the board is that I run way too many creatures, so I may as well have a little something extra against combo (which is probably pretty good already, being as I'm playing thresh). THey might come in against control, too. Actually, they definitely will.

Sea Drake because 1: I don't own and haven't been able to find any Tygron Predators; 2. He beats Tygon Predators; 3: He's a pretty solid clock; 4: he costs 3. I feel like I'm missing out on my 4 slot, but I hope the game doesn't go that far, then. I chose 'Drake over Tombstalker because it really sucks to flip Tombstalker off a bob turn three. Like, a whole bunch.

I guess Confidant doesn't really count as a creature, if the Hatfields are correct - he's more like a Draw spell that gets countered by Swords, but that' s nice, 'cause then Tarmogoyf gets to play.

I seriously need some help on the sideboard, though. I really hate saying that Thresh is the best deck out there, but it honestly might be, so I'ma give it a shot.

[Jaynel]

I think Extirpate is the right slot in the sideboard. It's efficient against Ichorid (an early one on Bridge from Below makes winning very difficult) and can also help out in other matchups. Yixlid Jailer, though very good against Ichorid as well, seems ONLY good against Ichorid and isn't really effective against many other decks.

[Nihil Credo]

0) Your removal suit is horribly expensive. EE in particular, while not terrible, is at its worst when you're running the most cheap permanents of any Threshold list.
1) Better to run less Thoughtseizes but the full 4 Confidants. There's only so much life loss you can afford, and one option is clearly more powerful. Confidants die easily yet a surviving Bob will win you the game.
2) Extirpate in the SB is an absolute must. I believe in a CB version it's even more of a reason to splash black than Confidant. Predict is only somewhat worse than Bob, but Crypt is a hell of a lot worse than Extirpate.
3) Therapy in the SB is terrible. Against control, you want to SB in Grip and Extirpate, so you don't have room for Therapy. Stifle would be a lot more useful.
4) Breeding Pool > Forest if you expect Extirpate. If you are hoping that it will let you operate with a Moon in play, then ignore this, though I think it would take one hell of a hate metagame to make the gamble worth it.
5) 1 Island is enough. Against Blood Moon, Counterbalance is weak. Against other forms of nonbasic hate, you need only to use a dual once.
6) Do you expect the new Warren Weirding Goblins to be present? If so, you need Plagues in the SB. If not, you can get away with Blue Elemental Blasts.

For the record, here is the general framework I currently use for Black Thresh:

4 Polluted Delta
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Underground Sea
3 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island OR 3 Tropical + 1 Breeding Pool (meta call)

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
1 Tombstalker

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Force of Will
3 Counterbalance
3 Daze

2 Ghastly Demise
2 Diabolic Edict

5 open slots, options include:
- Daze #4
- Ghastly Demise #3
- Up to 2 of: Vedalken Shackles, Trygon Predator, Counterspell
- Up to 3 of: Spell Snare, Pithing Needle, Thoughtseize, Stifle

SB:
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Krosan Grip
3-4 Extirpate
0-2 Diabolic Edict
0-3 Engineered Plague
Any number of cards not picked from the open slots above


EDIT: I didn't notice your metagame analysis. Based on that, I would recommend for the variable slots in the MD: 4 Tropical Island, Daze #4, 2 Predators, 2 Spell Snare. For the SB, 3 Extirpate, 2 Edicts, 3 Pithing Needle.

[Obfuscate Freely]

1) Better to run less Thoughtseizes but the full 4 Confidants. There's only so much life loss you can afford, and one option is clearly more powerful. Moreover, Confidants die easily yet a surviving Bob will win you the game.
This is wrong. Thoughtseize is amazing, and by far the biggest reason to splash black. Play four or go home.

Zach, your manabase is terrible. Why do you feel the need to run nonblue basics? Dropping a game here or there to a Blood Moon effect is not as bad as losing games throughout a tournament because your own manabase screwed you over harder. Your manabase should be optimized, first and foremost, to let you play your spells. Fighting through mana denial is secondary. Try this:

4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
4x Tropical Island
4x Underground Sea
1x Island

This manabase is extremely resilient to Wasteland, because it is so redundant. As Nihil suggested, you can work in a Ravdual or two, if you're really worried about Wasteland + Extirpate.

I think Ghastly Demise's efficiency makes it significantly better than Shriekmaw and Engineered Explosives. If you expect Dark Confidants and other things that Demise can't kill, consider Smother, as well.

Sea Drake is awesome. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

You have a good start on the sideboard. Krosan Grip and Blue Elemental Blast are both solid. Cabal Therapy doesn't seem great, though. Against control decks, boarding up to four Counterbalances and four Confidants will do more good than bringing in Therapies. I would probably put Plagues into the open slot.

I'm not sure if the graveyard hate is justifiable. Will there be enough Ichorid there to warrant it? Will three Extirpates make enough of an impact in that matchup, anyway? I think you should use these slots to shore up other matchups (this is where you could fit some Trygon Predators, for example).

[Whit3 Ghost]

Zach, as a matter of personal preference, I would run UGb Canadian/Tempo Thresh.

4 Underground Sea
4 Trop
3 Delta
3 Strand
4 Wasteland

4 Goose
4 Goyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Thoughtseize
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Spell Snare
4 Demise
2 EE/Smother/Edict/Bounce

Board some number of Duress, Blasts, Kgrip, Needle and Extirpate. If you really feel it's necessary, you can also board into the Counterbalance engine. If there's going to be that much Stax/Dstompy, board Deeds if you can't get Predators and possibly even if you can.

You have at 6 removal spells for the mirror in addition to a very strong Discard package, with Extirpate out of the board to take advantage of the Wastes and Discard.

[Adan]

This is wrong. Thoughtseize is amazing, and by far the biggest reason to splash black. Play four or go home.

Zach, your manabase is terrible. Why do you feel the need to run nonblue basics? Dropping a game here or there to a Blood Moon effect is not as bad as losing games throughout a tournament because your own manabase screwed you over harder. Your manabase should be optimized, first and foremost, to let you play your spells. Fighting through mana denial is secondary. Try this:

4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
4x Tropical Island
4x Underground Sea
1x Island

This manabase is extremely resilient to Wasteland, because it is so redundant. As Nihil suggested, you can work in a Ravdual or two, if you're really worried about Wasteland + Extirpate.

I think Ghastly Demise's efficiency makes it significantly better than Shriekmaw and Engineered Explosives. If you expect Dark Confidants and other things that Demise can't kill, consider Smother, as well.

Sea Drake is awesome. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

You have a good start on the sideboard. Krosan Grip and Blue Elemental Blast are both solid. Cabal Therapy doesn't seem great, though. Against control decks, boarding up to four Counterbalances and four Confidants will do more good than bringing in Therapies. I would probably put Plagues into the open slot.

I'm not sure if the graveyard hate is justifiable. Will there be enough Ichorid there to warrant it? Will three Extirpates make enough of an impact in that matchup, anyway? I think you should use these slots to shore up other matchups (this is where you could fit some Trygon Predators, for example).

The Truth³!

But yes, 3 Extirpates and 3 Jailers are justified, just because spiritofthewretch plays Ichorid all the time (because he lacks too much skill to pilot any other deck that is not from the "combo" archetype) here. And the possibility to win against Ichorid - which is usually a autoloss - justifies the usage of the black splash, as well as the versatility of Thoughtseize and the cardadvantage of Confidant.

I played it today after dropping at the PTQ and I really fell in love with the black splash. Extirpate is also a insanely versatile card that often replaces Pithing Needle here (against all those loam-decks, land.decs, Landstills, mirror, Ichorid and whatsoever).

[Nihil Credo]

This is wrong. Thoughtseize is amazing, and by far the biggest reason to splash black. Play four or go home.
I've played Thoughtseize and I don't disagree that it's tremendously powerful. I just think it doesn't win as many games as Confidant does.

Unless the meta is sorely lacking in aggro and aggro-control, if you want to play 4 Thoughtseize then you must run Predict as your CA draw spell. With Confidant in the deck, I always had to fall back on 2-3 copies.

[Adan]

I've played Thoughtseize and I don't disagree that it's tremendously powerful. I just think it doesn't win as many games as Confidant does.

Unless the meta is sorely lacking in aggro and aggro-control, if you want to play 4 Thoughtseize then you must run Predict as your CA draw spell. With Confidant in the deck, I always had to fall back on 2-3 copies.

Agreed.

I don't think Thoughtseize is the biggest reason to splash black, i also think Confidant is. Thoughtseize is teh 2nd powerful card black offers.

But let us agree on both of them. Black offers you 2 powerful maindeck cards, but this also makes you cut back the power of removal (Ghastly Demise and Smother are both excellent and good, but they are still specific and sometimes dead).

As I said before, I somehow fell in love with black NQG, beause it can keep up with the meta here.

It's slightly stronger against mirror matches, it has got a good SB-option against Goblins and, most important: It can easily defeat Ichorid - THE autoloss-matchup - postboard.

It also think it's better against Landstill... But I'm still not sure about it, I think I will test a littlebit with Der imaginäre Freund the next time yo I can post you a analysis.

Maybe I'll run it again at the next tourney. But I intended to play Not Quite Survival, so let's see how my mood is.

@Mods/whoever has got influence on that:

Can NQS be discussed here, or should a new thread be opened for that purpose?

[Mr.Happy]

If you really want to run White for STP, which I think is really bad, you'd want the mana base to look like something like this.

3x Delta
3x Strand
4x Underground
3x Trop
2x Island
2x Tundra


After loosing several games in a small tournament, because of the shaky manabase, I'm now convinced you're right.

How should a UGB/UGBw list look like, to be strong in the mirror / not bad in the dragon stompy matchup?

I thought about Trygon Predator. It solves several problems like :
Counterbalance, Chalice, Trinisphere, Blood Moon etc. which are common in my meta.

[Liek]

How should a UGB/UGBw list look like, to be strong in the mirror / not bad in the dragon stompy matchup?

I thought about Trygon Predator. It solves several problems like :
Counterbalance, Chalice, Trinisphere, Blood Moon etc. which are common in my meta.

I'd rather win the mirror than change the deck to be slightly better vs Blood Moon decks. Those decks are bad against every deck but us, so as long as we win the early rounds it shouldn't be a big deal.

The best ways to deal with Blood Moon/Magus Moon are Daze, Force of Will, and Thoughtseize.

What I'm trying to say is that we're not beating this Blood Moon deck unless we screw up our manabase (and entire deck.) Winning the mirror is much more important (in my experience 40% or more of my matchups in tournaments are the mirror.)

[Adan]

I'd rather win the mirror than change the deck to be slightly better vs Blood Moon decks. Those decks are bad against every deck but us, so as long as we win the early rounds it shouldn't be a big deal.

The best ways to deal with Blood Moon/Magus Moon are Daze, Force of Will, and Thoughtseize.

What I'm trying to say is that we're not beating this Blood Moon deck unless we screw up our manabase (and entire deck.) Winning the mirror is much more important (in my experience 40% or more of my matchups in tournaments are the mirror.)

Agreed. I played my NQGb build against Dragonstompy... I won 7 out of 10 games. Why? Because a hand with the mentioned 3 cards simply wins. You need Force of Will, Thoughtseize, Lands and a critter for pressure/Confidant into gas.

Thoughtseize is sooo amazing in this matchup because they prevent those no-brainer starts "Land-Mox-Moon" or any other retarded things like Chalice or
3Sphere by simply discarding them. You might as well take the opponents only threat. Sure, Counterbalance is dead against this one, but Trygon Predator, Grips and Explosives will fix that postboard.

[Liek]

Agree entirely. Instead of trying to figure out how to win the games they are winning, we should just do what we do and win.

[Brushwagg]

How should a UGB/UGBw list look like, to be strong in the mirror / not bad in the dragon stompy matchup?

Well I know my list is strong in the mirror. The problem part is Mystic Enforcer in the White Version. So Shackels has to do their job or counter Enforcer or it's GG.

@Dragon Stompy: 1st off I probably limit the colors to 3. 2nd: Fetch out the basics when ever possible and keep counters and or removal handy.

@Trygon: I've run him in the board, and if your meta is filled enough targets then this can be a good compliment to Krosan Grip.

@NQS: Why would you discuss this here and not in the thread for it?

[Adan]

Well I know my list is strong in the mirror. The problem part is Mystic Enforcer in the White Version. So Shackels has to do their job or counter Enforcer or it's GG.

@NQS: Why would you discuss this here and not in the thread for it?

@Enforcer: If you don't have Repeal/Shackles, try to race it or scoop, yes.

@NQS: Well it's actually a UGb Threshold with a Survival Engine.

[fallenphoenix]

ATM I'm seriously thinking of building some kind of Tempo-Thresh with Stifle/Waste and Extirpate, because my Meta is filled with Aggro-Loam, Landstill, Thresh, Combo (mostly TES and Dredge) and Dragon Stompy.
While Extirpate is weak against the latter, it's quite strong against Loam/Dredge (obv) and vs weak the manabases of 4-C-Landstill and Thresh.
Also, discarding/extirpating opposing Goyfs/Enforcers/other win-conditions sounds pretty mean in the mirror.

In my current CB/Top-build I'm using Sower of Temptation postboard vs mean autoloss-stuff aka Enforcer.
I have been using threads before and I was not impressed, as the only creature to 'nap is Goyf, while Enforcer will still seal the game.
Same is true for Terravore/Countryside Crusher, Delving Demons, all of dragon Stompys Stuff (while they have hardly an option to remove it).

[diffy]

ATM I'm seriously thinking of building some kind of Tempo-Thresh with Stifle/Waste and Extirpate, because my Meta is filled with Aggro-Loam, Landstill, Thresh, Combo (mostly TES and Dredge) and Dragon Stompy.
While Extirpate is weak against the latter, it's quite strong against Loam/Dredge (obv) and vs weak the manabases of 4-C-Landstill and Thresh.
Also, discarding/extirpating opposing Goyfs/Enforcers/other win-conditions sounds pretty mean in the mirror.


Sounds a lot like you're searching for aYb.irdshit (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=12111). If the manabase scares you, you can always cut white and the Hoofprints of the Stag for Tombstalkers or Sea Drakes or the like.



In my current CB/Top-build I'm using Sower of Temptation postboard vs mean autoloss-stuff aka Enforcer.
I have been using threads before and I was not impressed, as the only creature to 'nap is Goyf, while Enforcer will still seal the game.
Same is true for Terravore/Countryside Crusher, Delving Demons, all of dragon Stompys Stuff (while they have hardly an option to remove it).

Sower of Temptation is just worse than Control Magic (http://magiccards.info/be/en/53.html) or Mind Harness (http://magiccards.info/mr/en/78.html) in most matchups: you really don't want to see all that effort put into removing the big, nasty opposing threat to them simply kill your 2 toughness guy (really not hard) and get it back... an enchantment is just much harder to get rid of so you're likely to 'remove' the threat more permanently.

[Osse]

Here's my UGB list, which basically takes Dave Caplan's red version as a skeleton;

// Lands
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [B] Underground Sea
4 [U] Tropical Island
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose

// Spells
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
1 [PS] Rushing River
1 [TSP] Wipe Away
4 [PLC] Extirpate
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [ON] Smother

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [OV] Hydroblast
SB: 2 [DIS] Trygon Predator
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
SB: 2 [AP] Pernicious Deed

Things to note; Confidant sideboard. I've never been a fan of him maindeck in Threshold, He's shooting for the long game, which you don't want to go get to against most decks, and doesn't have an immediate impact. Also, many of your spells are weak enough that letting Confidant stick around isn't a huge problem for the opponent. He's strong in the control matchups, and the combo matchups, where you can use him as Card Advantage and a Clock, both matchups where it will help you in the long game.
4x Extirpate. I think this card fits the deck pretty nicely, letting you get the cards that will punish you, out of the way. The added bonus of destroying a manabase with Extirpate+Wasteland is nice too, but not something that should be waited or relied upon. Against Goblins Extirpating their Wastelands (Depending on game-state of course), or preferably, their Warchiefs, is very strong. Also, Extirpate is great against the recursion engines that love to wreck Threshold, like Loam and what not, many control decks are now employing recursion effects, making Extirpate especially strong there, as well as cutting off their sometimes only Win condition.
x4 Smother; I love this card. For all the spots that this could be like Edict, Vendetta, Snuff Out, Shriekmaw, I think Smother is best for a couple reasons; It hits Confidant, and most everything in the Deadguy matchups, which is huge. It's sometimes better against Aggro Loam than even Swords, and pairs great with Extirpate compared to Swords. I'm aware this isn't as strong as other options in the DS and Goblins matchups, but that's what BEB is for.
No Basic lands; again, I took the skeleton of Caplan's list, and decided to go all-in with no basic lands, and 4 wastelands. If alot of DS is showing up, you should probably change decks anyways.

[from Cairo]

Sower of Temptation is just worse than Control Magic (http://magiccards.info/be/en/53.html) or Mind Harness (http://magiccards.info/mr/en/78.html) in most matchups: you really don't want to see all that effort put into removing the big, nasty opposing threat to them simply kill your 2 toughness guy (really not hard) and get it back... an enchantment is just much harder to get rid of so you're likely to 'remove' the threat more permanently.

Completely agree. 2 Toughness is just too much of a liablity for opening you up to 2 for 1s. If you have something like Goyf, Sowered Enforcer, Sower and you swing in, all they have to do is remove the Sower, regain Enforcer and block you're Goyf and they just wiped your board, and negated a 4cc spell you spent the previous turn casting.

[fallenphoenix]

I agree that it's a liability, as long as you don't have counterbalance, but it will never be a 2-for-1, when your opponent kills it. Also, blocking with the formerly captured Enforcer does not work, because it will be tapped...

Control Magic has the same weakness, as Predator/Grip will probably be boarded in against you.
The main reason for me to play Sower over Control Magic is, that I don't own any.... it's not a good reason, though =)


Oh, and I'm aware of ayb.ridshit, and yes, I have been taking some inspiration from it ;)

[aTn]

Also, blocking with the formerly captured Enforcer does not work, because it will be tapped...

Declare attack step, in response, opponent kills Sower... granted that attacking with your Goyf/whatnot even though your opponent gets back his Enforcer, seems pretty stupid most of the time (in particular if the opponent has Threshold).

As for Sower vs. Control Magic, I find that there is much more creature removal than enchantment removal in most (if not all) decks in my meta, so I tend to favor Control Magic, since I use it to get game-wrecking creatures and I don't want my plans to be ruined by creature removal.

[Jaiminho]

Declare attack step, in response, opponent kills Sower...

You can't respond the attack declaration -- no stack involved. You simply do stuff after or before they've declared.

[J.V.]

Osse no thoughtseizes?

[Osse]

Osse no thoughtseizes?

I don't think Thoughtseizes fit into the Maindeck right now. I don't feel like going proactive with this deck unless I'm going to be playing a threat, of course Ponder does the opposite of this by being proactive itself, but it's a cantrip that will dig into Reactive cards, usually cheap/free spells. I've tried Thoughtseizes before, and It's possible they could go back into the deck over the Extirpates, or they could go into the Sideboard depending on the metagame.

[Adan]

You can't respond the attack declaration -- no stack involved. You simply do stuff after or before they've declared.

You can because then you are going into another phase. At the end of each phase, you pass priority and the opponent may do something.

[Jaiminho]

You can because then you are going into another phase. At the end of each phase, you pass priority and the opponent may do something.

Exactly. That's not responding, as in not passing priority and doing something. It's not putting the declaration on the stack and doing stuff over it.

All in all, Sower is lame.

[fallenphoenix]

Dudes...

At the point your entering your "Declare Attackers Step", your opponent obv. gains priority. But then, your creatures are still untapped and NOT attacking, because this is still at the end of your "Beginning of Combat Step".
So creatures which are stolen via Shackles (or liberated from tempting sowers) are still untapped, but no creature is actually attacking "into an untapped Enforcer", as someone put it.

Then, when nothing happened, you will declare your attackers and they are tapped, as long as they don't have "Vigilance".
There is no change of priority between the beginning of your "Declare Attacker's Step" and the actual declaration and/or tapping of creatures.

If your opponent then tries one of the above things, he will get a tapped Enforcer, which will be removed from combat because of the change in control.

[aTn]

Exactly. That's not responding, as in not passing priority and doing something. It's not putting the declaration on the stack and doing stuff over it.

Ok, I used the wrong terminology, but what Adan said was what I meant. Sorry about that...

[Adan]

Exactly. That's not responding, as in not passing priority and doing something. It's not putting the declaration on the stack and doing stuff over it.

All in all, Sower is lame.

Aight, Mr. Wiseguy ;-)

By the way, Oddball - Windux teammate - IMed me and presented me his tempostyle-version which is also based on Windux 4colored List.


Oddball (20:11:37 4/03/2008):

4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Island
3 Wasteland

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Snare
3 Smother
1 Ghastly Demise
2 Engineered Explosives

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Stifle
2 Extirpate

Sideboard:

1 Extirpate
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Yixlid Jailer
4 Hydroblast
3 Krosan Grip
3 Compost

I fixed the orthography for better understanding.

He stated that he kicked the CBalance-Engine out of the 75s since this deck is obv. based on the tempostyle-concept similar to the one David Caplan built.
Both builds are meant to come around with 2 lands. And Counterbalance Engine is contraproductive to that concept since it requires plenty of mana to keep it runnin'.

That's why he then also got 4 slots remaining in the maindeck since he also found Hoofprints quite slow. And without CBalance, SDT also don't makes sense anymore. Though it generates CQ, it's still a permanent that won't ever land in the grave. It will eventually hinder you to get Threshold fast.

That's also the reason why I would never play SDT when not playing CBalance.

He mentioned something about Compost, but because i haven't slept enought for the whole day I didn't kept that in mind.
But in the past he mentioned something that he hates being fisted by Pox (an issue where he plays, but he doesn't play very often in the last time)...

I just wanted to give the list as food for thought. And the prove that it was elaborated well (meaning the arguments).

[Liek]

Why are people playing Extirpate over Thoughtseize?

[noobslayer]

Why are people playing Extirpate over Thoughtseize?

My thoughts exactly. Thoughtseize can deal with something preemptively, while Extirpate means you had to have done something about the threat in the first place.

[Adan]

Why are people playing Extirpate over Thoughtseize?

Thoughtseize was also a card that didn't seem to fit into the decks concept since it wants to apply pressure in the first place while disrupting the opponent with manadenial and cheap hardcounters. There are situations where the opponent is out-of-gas anyways because he has either blown out all his resources (which you could all handle) or everything stucks in his hand because he's screwed. In both scenarios, Thoughtseize is a dead topdeck.

Extirpate is sometimes as broken as Vedalken Shackles was in Baseruption. The motivation was to fill the Needle-Slot (we want to avoid permanents) with a card that can be compared with Needle. And Extirpate was included because it's stronger in the mirrormatch and good against Loam, Landstill, etc. and raised the odds of beating Ichorid preboard.

Another reason could be that Extirpate amplifies the devastating effect of the manadenial components (for example Waste-Extirpate on tropical or Mishra's Factory should win against Thresh and Landstill).

edit:
@noobslayer: That's correct, but that's why we run manadenial and additional counters, i.e. Spell Snare. Spell Snares versatility could be compared with Thoughtseize's, with the difference that Snare doesn't cause lifeloss and is blue. Compared to Seize it's a reactive card, yes, but it allows you to remain flexible.

Like... the 1st Turn scenario: Do you land-go to wait whether you can Stifle a Fetch, or do you Thoughtseize to pick a threat (that you could also spell-snare) and permit the Opp's landdrop?

[fallenphoenix]

Because it allows to get away with cheap wins vs decks with light threat-base (i.e. the mirror, Landstill) or bad manabases (i.e. the mirror, Landstill).
Waste/Extirpate Tropical does sooo much sometimes... some play a single Breeding Pool to avoid that, but you still have Wastes and Stifle to prevent fetching/using the Pool.

It's also a great card if you're expecting Loam and/or Dredge to make an appearance.

Not having Thoughtseize feels wrong, but I figure my build would look a lot like oddball's, with some minor changes (-1 Confidant, -1 Demise, +1 Stifle, +1 Extirpate/Spell Snare, perhaps -1 Island/U. Sea, +1 Wasteland)

[Benny]

I am currently testing this build:

17 land
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 swamp

12 creatures
3 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
1 Tombstalker

17 instants
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Smother
4 Brainstorm
2 Extirpate

3 enchantments
3 Counterbalance

4 Artifacts
3 SDT
1 vedalken shackles

7 Sorceries
4 Ponder
3 thoughtseize

Sideboard:

1 Extirpate
3 Pernicious deed
3 Yixlid Jailer
2 Hydroblast
2 Krosan Grip
4 Engineered Pleague

Currently I play Black ***** because of the strong SB (read: graveyard hate) + i love to play with dark confidant.
I noticed during my playtesting that this build has some problems with reaching ******** from time to time because you play too many permanents: tops, confi's, counterbalance. That's why i believe that nimble mongoose is at his weakest in a ***** build with confis and countertop.

You could replace the confidants with predicts to solve this problem and play thoughtseize nr°4 and maybe some cards with a higher cc like tombstalker and/or shriekmaws, an extra shackles, land nr°18 etc... But I don't think a slower build is the sollution.

I tested predator, trinket mage, psychatog, extra tombstalkers and threads of disloyalty in this slot. I Only liked the trinket mages with a crypt, explosives and a needle main, but they were too slow. The two extirpates are a metagame call and they work excellent in combination with toughtseize. The 1 vedalken shackles is quite random, could be replaced by smother, Ghastly Demise or Engineered Explosives.

Regards,
Benny

[Brushwagg]

3 Nimble Mongoose

This number needs to be 4. -1 Dark Confidant. Nimble Mongoose is on of the best creatures. Alot of decks have problems dealing with this guy.

Here's my current list which I have been playing. I reach threshold fairly easy.

// Lands
2 [TSP] Island (3)
1 [RAV] Swamp (1)
1 [UNH] Forest
3 [A] Tropical Island
4 [U] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Flooded Strand

// Creatures
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [RAV] Dark Confidant

// Spells
3 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [LRW] Ponder
3 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [NE] Daze
4 [ON] Smother
3 [OD] Predict
2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [FUT] Tombstalker

[raharu]

I've been thinking of slinging together a deck with lots of mana disruption, like tempo-thresh in excess, with Pithing Needles on fetches and whatnot. I'm thinking it would look like this:

Lands: 18
Wasteland x4
Polluted Delta x4
Flooded Strand x2
Underground Sea x4
Tropical Island x4

Creatures: 8
Nimble Mongoose x4
Tarmogoyf x4

LD aspcts: 11
Pithing Needle x3
Stifle x4
Extirpate x4

Countermagic: 8
Daze x4
Force of Will x4

Removal/ Bounce: 6
Smother x4
Rushing River x2

Cantrips: 9
Brainstorm x4
Ponder x4
Serum Visions x1

Thoughts?

[Liek]

Here's my current list which I have been playing. I reach threshold fairly easy.

// Lands
2 [TSP] Island (3)
1 [RAV] Swamp (1)
1 [UNH] Forest
3 [A] Tropical Island
4 [U] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Flooded Strand

// Creatures
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [RAV] Dark Confidant

// Spells
3 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [LRW] Ponder
3 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [NE] Daze
4 [ON] Smother
3 [OD] Predict
2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [FUT] Tombstalker

I have a few questions.

-Why is Dark Confidant a 3 of and not a 4 of?
-Why is there a basic Forest with no way to search for it?
-Does the deck contain enough mana to use Shackles effectively?

[Brushwagg]

@Liek:

-Why is Dark Confidant a 3 of and not a 4 of?

Because DC is card you like to see but you really don't want to see more then 1 at a time. I've always used 3 with great sucess and probably won't change it now.


-Why is there a basic Forest with no way to search for it?
Because it's a throw back from like 2 years ago. I did run Bayou there, but eh.


-Does the deck contain enough mana to use Shackles effectively?

Umm ya.... 9 Islands isn't enough?? Since I usally fetch for duals most of the time.

[Adan]

Umm ya.... 9 Islands isn't enough?? Since I usally fetch for duals most of the time.

It's not.

And you don't need Predict anymore since you have Dark Confidant and a less permanentcount. And please play the established Manabase: 8 Fetch, 8 Duals, 1 Island. Fore more efficiency of Shackles and so on.


Lands: 18
Wasteland x4
Polluted Delta x4
Flooded Strand x2
Underground Sea x4
Tropical Island x4

Creatures: 8
Nimble Mongoose x4
Tarmogoyf x4

LD aspcts: 11
Pithing Needle x3
Stifle x4
Extirpate x4

Countermagic: 8
Daze x4
Force of Will x4

Removal/ Bounce: 6
Smother x4
Rushing River x2

Cantrips: 9
Brainstorm x4
Ponder x4
Serum Visions x1

Thoughts?

4 Extirpates are clearly overkill, and Pithing Needle is absolutely contradictory to the deck's concept since those tempo-ish builds are rather old-school, focused on approx. Turn 3 threshold and then deliver some beatz with Geese and Goyfs.

That's why you MUST play Dark Confidant, because he brings you back some lost Turns with his carddraw (I mean that Land-Go-Start) and is a Weenie. Since the deck is created to prevent the opponent from resolving dangerous threats, we actually don't need the bounce (We have 2 Extirpate).

I still think that Oddball's build matched the optimum pretty well since it's concept is straight, focused on generating speedadvantage. The only thing I'd do is to swap the amount of Ghastly Demise and Smother. Your graveyard fills quicker and it's CC1. As goobafish said about the red equivalent: It's designed to work out with 1 or 2 mana. Demise is cheaper and might be as effective as Smother anyways.

[fallenphoenix]

And please play the established Manabase: 8 Fetch, 8 Duals, 1 Island.

Just a point where I disagree, I don't think there is such a thing as "the manabase".
Depending on the metagame, playing a single Breeding Pool/Watery Grave can be the right choice, if Extirpate is often seen where you play.
Playing more basics (2 Islands, perhaps 1 Forest) when DragonStompy is running rampant cannot be wrong either. Anyway, if basics are played, they certainly have to be fetchable.
Oh, and ofc, if you play Wastelands..

@ raharu's list:

3 Needle MD? imho Stifle pretty much fills it's role here, which is the reason I would always run 4 Stifle, if any. Needles are not as great as e.g. Explosives, Thoughtseize, or Spell Snare.

4 Extirpate is overkill, except if your metagame consists of 1/3 LS, 1/3 Thresh, 1/3 Loam/Dredge.
Even then, 3of seems sufficient, as superfluous Extirpates in your opening suck.
Remember, before you can Extirpate something, you need to get it to the Grave first. Spell Snare is great, as it will often hit Goyf or nasty stuff like Explosives@2. Thoughtseize can be a house, as it takes anything they might hold back because of mana issues (i.e. Enforcer, Deed etc...)


Wasteland x4
Polluted Delta x3
Flooded Strand x3
Underground Sea x4
Tropical Island x4

Nimble Mongoose x4
Tarmogoyf x4
Dark Confidant x3

Stifle x4
Extirpate x2

Daze x4
Force of Will x4
Spell Snare x4

Smother x3
Rushing River x2

Cantrips: 9
Brainstorm x4
Ponder x4

SB:
Extirpate x1
Blue Elemental Blast x4
Submerge x3
Krosan Grip x3
Yixlyd Jailer x3
XXX x1 (??)


This is what I would probably play, not sure about the bounce-slots (perhaps Repeal, perhaps other Stuff i.e. more cantrips, Thoughtseize, LftL).
Perhaps even -1 Spell Snare, +1 Extirpate.

[noobslayer]

Running 4 wastelands in a 3 color mana base that is already shaky at times for a total land count of 18 just seems EXTREMELY questionable.

[Nihil Credo]

In my experience, it can work. However you absolutely must tilt towards fetches rather than duals - this gives you 11 sources of each splash, instead of 10. You don't care about having more fetches than fetchables because it's a tempo version that aims to win far before your seventh coloured land drop.

[zulander]

What does this deck hate seeing? What card(s)/plan(s) generally beat the deck?

[loxodonhierarch]

Tombstalker, Dragonstompy ...

The list above with 3 needle 4 pate main was really strange in my opinion.
More then 2 Pates main is NEVER good i think.

And indeed Stifle does better then 3 needles.

[Adan]

What does this deck hate seeing? What card(s)/plan(s) generally beat the deck?

I can just tell you my opinion: The deck I fear the most is Landstill, because nearly every build run cards that can wreck you:

Engineered Explosives (gets even worse with Academy Ruins), Wrath of God, Pernicious Deed, Humility...maybe Counterbalance/Moat (Moat not being THAT evil).
I also don't like GBW RecSur (TaoSurvival) because it also runs a strong engine and cards like Pernicious Deed that they can also recurr with Witness-Genesis and so on.

Yeah, I think those matchups are the worst ones. Things like DragonStompy and GeddonStax can only beat you if they have the monster Uber-Start (with you NOT having FoW) or if they topdeck like non other. Just prevent Chalice and other nuisance-stuff from hitting the table.

edit: I saw you meant UGb specially. Well, yes, then Tombstalker would also be a pesky thing to deal with.

But in general nearly every matchup gets better postboard, because Extirpate is such a house against Landstill for example or Loam-variants like 43lands.

[Solpugid]

Although the vast majority of players I've talked to overestimate GeddonStax's game against Threshold, I disagree that they need an "uber-start" to beat you. They have roughly 1 1/2 dozen must-counters (trinisphere, geddon, ravages of war, crucible, and to a lesser extent ghostly prison, suppression field, angel, and magus of the tabernacle). While letting one of these spells resolve isn't instant defeat, many of them make the next "must-counter" card easier to play against you.

For instance, if they resolve a trinisphere (especially first turn), then FoW and daze are more or less shut off. This makes resolving geddon, crucible (+waste lock) or angel easier and more brutal. This is not to say that the matchup is very unfavorable, but that I'd rather not face it in a tournament.

True control decks, like Landstill, are certainly tough matches, but a protected confidant can still win you the game (especially because most control decks can't capitalize on the life loss "drawback"). I actually think Goblins is one of the hardest matchups for this deck. The life loss from confidant, fetchlands, and thoughtseize really add up here.

[Adan]

For instance, if they resolve a trinisphere (especially first turn), then FoW and daze are more or less shut off. This makes resolving geddon, crucible (+waste lock) or angel easier and more brutal. This is not to say that the matchup is very unfavorable, but that I'd rather not face it in a tournament.

Even though I lose game 1, I usually rape Stax g2 and 3 with Trygon Predators, Explosives and Krosan Grip...

[Solpugid]

Even though I lose game 1, I usually rape Stax g2 and 3 with Trygon Predators, Explosives and Krosan Grip...

Oh ok, fair enough. I've actually been unimpressed with EE against Stax, but I didn't account for boarded trygons.

[Adan]

Oh ok, fair enough. I've actually been unimpressed with EE against Stax, but I didn't account for boarded trygons.

EE is just another out against Chalice. And in teh midgame it can sweep the board if set on 3, but you are right, it's not THAT impressive, but still more useful than Counterbalance and Sensei's.

[Citrus-God]

EE is just another out against Chalice. And in teh midgame it can sweep the board if set on 3, but you are right, it's not THAT impressive, but still more useful than Counterbalance and Sensei's.

... Tops are amazing against Stax. My teammate beat Stax because he resolved a Top. But yes, EE is just another out, Trygon is an efficient solution.

[Adan]

... Tops are amazing against Stax. My teammate beat Stax because he resolved a Top. But yes, EE is just another out, Trygon is an efficient solution.

I doubt they are amazing since the only thing they do is generating CQ. And that doesn't justifies why Top shouldn't be boarded out. And well, using SDT also requires mana which you need to do some pressure and play solutions.

[godryk]

Top really shines under a moon effect, when you can dig your library for answers using that unuseful red mana, so you can find a playable answer (you may have a plains or forest in play) or search for the island.

[Adan]

Top really shines under a moon effect, when you can dig your library for answers using that unuseful red mana, so you can find a playable answer (you may have a plains or forest in play) or search for the island.

Since when does Geddon-Stax run Blood Moons? Blue Elemental Blast would still be superior (against Moon).

[Citrus-God]

I doubt they are amazing since the only thing they do is generating CQ. And that doesn't justifies why Top shouldn't be boarded out. And well, using SDT also requires mana which you need to do some pressure and play solutions.

Stax decks today aren't as aggressive as back then. You'll probably have more breathing room to use your mana to generate CQ with Top. Compare Angel Stax back then with 4 Wastelands, 4 Ports, 4 Suppression Fields to now with 3 Wastelands, 0 Ports, and 0 Suppression Fields.

[godryk]

Since when does Geddon-Stax run Blood Moons? Blue Elemental Blast would still be superior (against Moon).


Well, I just wanted to speak in favour of Sensei's Divining Top, because when I wrote that, I just had some testing against DS and found Top's ability to dig your library from red mana pretty useful but, yes, Geddon Stax don't run Moons, it was just an short instant of confussion.

[Joon]

What do you think about running Shadowmage Infiltrator instead of Confidant in a Counterbalance Build? This would give CB a bit more reach and much more important would allow us to play 2 Tombstalkers without the risk of revealing him to Confidant. As a base I'd use Adan's Balance build und cut Confidant for Finkels.

The list looks like this:

// Lands
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [R] Underground Sea
1 [ON] Island (3)

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
3 [OD] Shadowmage Infiltrator

// Spells
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [ON] Smother
3 [CS] Counterbalance
2 [GP] Repeal
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [FUT] Yixlid Jailer
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [DIS] Trygon Predator

I've just not found any room for two Stalkers :frown:

[Adan]

What do you think about running Shadowmage Infiltrator instead of Confidant in a Counterbalance Build? This would give CB a bit more reach and much more important would allow us to play 2 Tombstalkers without the risk of revealing him to Confidant. As a base I'd use Adan's Balance build und cut Confidant for Finkels.

The list looks like this:

// Lands
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [R] Underground Sea
1 [ON] Island (3)

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
3 [OD] Shadowmage Infiltrator

// Spells
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [ON] Smother
3 [CS] Counterbalance
2 [GP] Repeal
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [FUT] Yixlid Jailer
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [DIS] Trygon Predator

I've just not found any room for two Stalkers :frown:

Why would you run Finkels over Confidants? Shadowmages take 1 Turn longer to get active than dark Confidant and is over all a rather defensive, clunky card.

I haven't kicked out the 2 Repeals for a 4th Confidant and a singleton Explosives for no reason. :wink:
Confidant is simply the more powerful card since he gets active 1 Turn earlier.

I tested Tombstalker and I don't like him. He might be the 5/5 beater, but he shrinks your Mongeese and maybe even Tarmogoyfs a littlebit. The Counterbalanced build has still got the problem of getting Threshold later than builds that don't run Counterbalance.

So I would not run him.

[Solknar]

Hi all for my first post.

I've been reading this thread for a very long time, and i want to share with you my own list of thresh UBg, and have your reactions.

first of all, i must say i'm not playing seize. don't get me wrong, it's a ggod card, probably the second best reason to splash black for thresh, as someone says here, but confidant is for me just better. and the loss of life is too important, as everyone knows, with 8 fetch bob force and seize.
so i'm playing confidant.

the second arguable choice of my list is to not play those mongeese everyone love. but i don't have ( i think) any slots for them, since tarmo and stalker do the bad work better.

my list is so :
creatures(10)
4 bob
4 tarmo
2 stalker

counters(13)
4 fow
3 daze
3 counterbalance
3 stifle ( reason? not combo storm of course, but rather EE 2, deed and waste)

critters(7)
3 ghastly demise
2 smother
2 EE

cantrips(10)
3 top
4 brainstorm
3 ponder

lands(17)
4 polluted
4 flooded
3 tropical
3 sea
2 island (my metagame is full of DS and also aggro CAL, and counterbalance is a very important card at the first)
1 swamp

3 random slots with cc of ( i was playing since a long time 1 schackles and 2 predator, but since i've sawn stalker everywhere, i think i would playing putrefy. don't laugh please, it kills stalker, but also Cotv trini nought...:smile: )

side(15)
2 Beb
2 hydroblast
3 extirpate
2 needle
3 grip
3 winter orb ( i don't understand why i didn't see this card here earlier : landstill is a tough MU and it becomes much more easier with this orb)

i pretty my like my creatures (which means stalker and tarmo), and even if there are not a lot, they can pass thx to the 10 critters (with putrefy).
my questiosns would be for my manabase (yes, i know, some would prefer 8 8 1), and especially for my random 3 slots (for 3 cc if possible)

do you have any comments/ bad/ good opinion for this list?

thx for reading

Solknar, french legacy player

[Shtriga]

thoughtseize is in fact one of the best reasons to splash black, along with confidants. it's proactive removal and disruption, in one. the 2 life can be bad sometimes, but it's rarely an issue

[Adan]

Huh, there were already established lists, why don't you guy just take one of them? I don't intend to kill innovation, but sometimes very wierd things come up. And I don't like that.

Tombstalker + Dark Confidant together =

http://www.trashgott.com/_lala-pages/fail-2/13.jpg

Though Tombstalker MIGHT get a littlebit better since he doesn't shrinks your own Mongeese (since you don't run any) and breaks stalls in the mid- / lategame for little mana, but he really doesn't fit in as a early-game creature. Nimble Mongeese are vital against control, thus they should always be part of Threshold. A 1st Tunr Mongoose can most likely win you the game since he SIMPLY DOESN'T DIE (to spotremoval!). And 3/3 shroud are solid stats for an underpriced beater.

[Nihil Credo]

Tombstalker + Dark Confidant together
Not as much as you may think. After playing Black Thresh with both for almost a year now, my experience is as follows: with 11-12 rearrangers (cantrips or Tops) one Tombstalker can be run safely, while two are a bit risky. Solknar's list is more dangerous than I'd accept to play, but not dramatically so. Losing Mongoose almost definitely costs him a lot more games (Goblins and some control decks) than flipping Tombstalker.

[Shtriga]

I've lost games before (or got awfully close to) by flipping Forces, so I'm not really confortable with stalker+bob, even with all the cantrips and shuffles :) . but it's not impossible

[koba]

I like your creatures and manabase. If stuff like landstill if not very present in your meta, it may not be a bad idea to drop the mongeese.
I think 2 jittes would fit your deck well. You have 10 creatures to equip it on and it makes all the lifeloss more bearable.

[Solknar]

i've played the deck for quite a time and i've only revealed 2 times stalker on bob. I know mongoose is an issue, and a very controversal choice, but just try my list just once! if i understand what you've said, i MUST play 4 mongoose 4 bob 4 seize? i will try to put mongoose on the free spots (mean putrfy), but seize don't fit with my reactive plan, and again ,the loss of life is a big problem that's must be said.

thank you all for your fast answers and hope you wil argue some more!

Solknar

[Adan]

Not as much as you may think. After playing Black Thresh with both for almost a year now, my experience is as follows: with 11-12 rearrangers (cantrips or Tops) one Tombstalker can be run safely, while two are a bit risky. Solknar's list is more dangerous than I'd accept to play, but not dramatically so. Losing Mongoose almost definitely costs him a lot more games (Goblins and some control decks) than flipping Tombstalker.

So you agree... or, well, at least a littlebit.

Another reason for me NOT to run Tombstalker was Ghastly Demise (in the random meta of Hassloch superior to Smother). He shrinks my Geese AND shrinks the efficiency of Ghastly Demise. That's why I didn't even run a single Tombstalker.

[Solknar]

list after modifications:
creatures(13)
4 bob
4 tarmo
4 mangoose
1 stalker

counters(13)
4 fow
3 daze
3 counterbalance
3 stifle

critters(7)
3 ghastly demise
2 smother
2 EE

cantrips(10)
3 top
4 brainstorm
3 ponder

lands(17)
4 polluted
4 flooded
3 tropical
3 sea
2 island (my metagame is full of DS and also aggro CAL, and counterbalance is a very important card at the first)
1 swamp

Adan (and the others, but Adan seems the most acive on this topic at the current time), what do you think about this? i'm not pretty choice of cutting one of my 2 bombstalker, because they offer me a lot of game. i never had any problem with it and demise, but with mangoose, 2 would be too much.

[diffy]

creatures(13)
4 bob
4 tarmo
4 mangoose
1 stalker


This looks solid. The one Tombstalker could be great for breaking stalls, but if :B::B: comes out to be too hard to cast - especially in a meta full of Dragon Stompy and Wasteland as you describe it, you could always go with Sea Drake (http://magiccards.info/po2/en/45.html)or the like.



counters(13)
4 fow
3 daze
3 counterbalance
3 stifle


I don't like Stifle in here. You don't have any Wastelands and Extirpates to support the mana denial subtheme - and against control (Pernicious Deeds, Engineered Explosives), Thoughtseize (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/145.html) is going to be better most of the time as it can pro-actively hit something while you swing in for the win. It is also better in the mirror to force a Counterbalance through.



critters(7)
3 ghastly demise
2 smother
2 EE


This is a lot of removal - I personally wouldn't play that much as 4 Smothers/Ghastly Demises and 1-2 Engineered Explosives as silver bullets will be enough to handle problematic stuff that isn't Thoughtseized/Countered or that you can just ignore due to your supperior critters.

This is the list I'd recomend for an unknown meta (my take on Adan's list):



/// Maindeck (60 cards)

// Lands (17)
4 Polluted Delta (http://magiccards.info/on/en/321.html)
4 Flooded Strand (http://magiccards.info/on/en/316.html)
3 Tropical Island (http://magiccards.info/be/en/299.html)
4 Underground Sea (http://magiccards.info/be/en/301.html)
2 Island (http://magiccards.info/apac/en/12.html)

// Beaters (8)
4 Nimble Mongoose (http://magiccards.info/od/en/258.html)
4 Tarmogoyf (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/153.html)

// Removal (4)
4 Ghastly Demise (http://magiccards.info/od/en/139.html)

// Permission (12)
4 Force of Will (http://magiccards.info/ai/en/42.html)
4 Daze (http://magiccards.info/ne/en/30.html)
4 Counterbalance (http://magiccards.info/cs/en/31.html)

// Card Advantage (19)
4 Thoughtseize (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/145.html)
3 Sensei's Divining Top (http://magiccards.info/chk/en/268.html)
4 Brainstorm (http://magiccards.info/mm/en/61.html)
4 Ponder (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/79.html)
4 Dark Confidant (http://magiccards.info/rav/en/81.html)

/// Sideboard (15 cards)
3 Yixlid Jailer (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/93.html)
3 Extirpate (http://magiccards.info/pc/en/71.html)
1 Krosan Grip (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/202.html)
2 Trygon Predator (http://magiccards.info/di/en/133.html)
2 Engineered Explosives (http://magiccards.info/5dn/en/118.html)
4 Hydroblast (http://magiccards.info/ia/en/72.html)


This can then be tweaked to the needs of your meta and to suit your prefferences.
For example, you could replace an Underground Sea with a Basic Swamp and a Daze with a Tombstalker to make the connection with your list.

[risethehandsofreason]

I've been playing Threshold for a while now -first white, then red, now black- and I've been working on dialing in my list for my local metagame. I went 4-0 at a local tournament (12 people) this week, with only one game lost in the final round. I was playing this list:

--Creatures-- (11)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark Confidant

--Draw-- (8)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

--Counter-- (12)
4 Spell Snare
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

--Utility-- (12)
2 Thoughseize
2 Duress
3 Ghastly Demise
2 Smother
2 Recoil
1 Pernicious Deed

--Land-- (17)
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta

--Sideboard--
1 Hydroblast
2 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Extirpate
2 Chill
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Leyline of the Void
3 Pithing Needle

Duress here is essentially a substitute for Thoughtseize, but it seemed to work well enough. It usually hit and the loss of life from thoughtseize and Bob was an issue for me in the tournament, so the absence of that drawback was handy at times. I understand that Thoughtseize is just better, though, and I would likely up the count, if possible, in lieu of the Duresses.

The Deeds were great all around. I have played EE for a long time, and this was the first time I gave Deed a shot. I liked it better in the EE slot, even if it had the potential to bring down some of my permanents with my opponent's. In the bit of testing that I've done and in this tournament, it really shined. It provides a lot of security that other cards just can't give me. I know that I can bring the whole field down if I need to, and that is comforting.

I had been using Wipe Away and/or Rushing River for bounce, but I wanted to give Recoil a shot because it is in the colors and because it is fun. It ended up working pretty well. The discard part may have had no real impact on the ultimate outcomes of the games, but it didn't hurt and I never boarded them out. I will likely keep them.

The numbers for Underground Seas and Tropical Islands should be switched, as the black count is higher than the green count. I just didn't have the Seas for that setup.

My metagame is full of non-basic land hate, thus the basic of each type.

One of our top decks is Ichorid/Bridge from Below, so I will play as many Leylines in the sideboard as I can get a hold of. I would have played more, had I had them. I think that it is an all around good card. While Extirpate is more versatile, of course, I would likely cut it for more Leylines.

My matchups were as follows:

1. Astral Slide / Lightning Rift

Game One: I countered well and he never got started. His deck was trying to do too much and came out kind of clunky.

Game Two: I boarded in a little red hate for Lightning Rift and Lightning Helix, and Extirpate for Life from the Loam.
At two, I tapped out for a Tarmogoyf because I had no Spell Snare in Hand. He resolved a morphed creature on his turn. I had Ghastly Demise in hand but no cards in the graveyard. I decided not to put two cards in the graveyard and hit the morphed guy with Ghastly Demise, which was a serious error. He flipped an Exalted Angel and proceeded to beat me down for a bit. I eventually hit the angel and recovered with Bob. I countered and extirpated a Hierarch, rather than the angel, the fearing the immediate life gain. On the turn that I attacked for the win, I would have died to Bob if I revealed a 2cc spell. That didn't happen, fortunately.

2. Armageddon Stax (This player, with this deck, made top 8 in a 42-person tournament that I went to several months ago - good player, good build)

Game One: My discard and counter magic hit everything I needed, for the most part. I hit his acceleration and threats with discard and I countered a Chalice at 1. He played a tabernacle and a Ghostly Prison, and I had to lose some creatures (two Bobs at one time, after the draw effect, and then one Bob next turn, after the draw effect). I had enough mana to keep a Tarmogoyf alive and attacking each turn. I bounced a Crucible at some point to prevent Wasteland recursion. I just out-paced his deck.

Game Two: I believe that I boarded in Deeds and Extirpates, losing some creature removal and Spell Snares. I got an early Mongoose in play relatively early, and he played Chalice at 1 the next turn. He resolved a morph creature (Exalted Angel) the next turn. My favorite play of the tournamet was dropping a Deed the next turn and breaking it for 0, hitting both the Chalice and the un-morphed angel (EE would have actually cost me one less mana, here, of course). As with game one, I just outpaced him, primarily with a little discard and by countering an early Mox Diamond. Armageddon/Ravages of War was never played in this match.

3. Green-Splash Goblins

This matchup was relatively un-noteworthy. It seemed as though my opponent resolved to lose at some point and made some play errors. While I likely would have won anyway, he did not do the things to stay alive that he should have. I happened to draw Ghastly Demise everytime I needed it, and, as with the other decks, I was just faster. Game two, I boarded in red hate. He got stuck on two land for a bit and I knew what was in his hand from a Thoughtseize spell. I ended up bouncing a Taiga to keep him from playing.

4. White-Splash Goblins

Game One: We both kept slightly risky hands. Probably more than any other game I've played, I had a lot of options when he played spells, in that, I had the choice to counter them or use a spot removal spell once they resolved. I did that several times, using whichever approach was more efficient. Somehow, I kept him off his game and I never really let him get started.

Game Two: I boarded in my red hate only. I kept a one non-basic land hand, which I should not have done. I had a good hand, including Chill, and I did have a draw spell to find more land. He ended up wasting my Sea and that really hurt. I had Pondered into more land, but, after that, I just didn't see one until it was too late. So, he ran me over.

Game Three: I boarded in Needles, which I hadn't done before. I resolved a first turn Needle. I resolved a secon-turn Chill, and another on several turns later. He didn't get a Vial in play, so he was just working with his mana. We did "draw, go" for a while while he was trying to get land (and discarding creatures) and I was trying to get a threat. In doing so, I set up my hand to counter anything he played or remove it, once resolved. Chill was fantastic and won me that game, to be sure.

It was an interesting tournament, as we had previously had no Goblins in our metagame. I was happy to see Black Thresh hold up against them, even though, as I said, I think that I happened to draw Ghastly Demise when I needed it way more than I should have. I ended up pulling a Tarmogoyf in my prize packs. Having just traded for my fourth foil Tarmogoyf, it was nice to have two extras floating around to make up for my ridiculous trade. I am one of those suckers for a foiled-out legacy deck.

As for my opinion on alternative builds, I think that the 4 Goyf, 4 Goose Thresh setup is really the important part of Thresh decks. I would not run Tombstalker. He is really tempting, like Jotun Grunt is in white for some people, but he is counter-productive, dangerous with Bob, and just too unwieldy at two black. He is not the same as a one-of Mystic Enforcer in white. He is amazing in other decks, but I don't think that he is at home here.

I have never really tried a counter-top build, but, having seen it quite a bit, I prefer going without. For whatever reason, I have had little difficulty against it in tournaments and I just don't like how it slows the deck down. This is, of course, an on-going debate on several threads. This is just a preference thing for me. I like to be faster and less board-reliant with Thresh.

As for black, as opposed to red or white, I am starting to think that it is the best option for me right now. It actually plays faster for me than red, most likely because my spot removal hits just about everything, where the burn can come up short. Black has been great because of the 1cc discard, 1cc removal, Pernicious Deed, good sideboard options for graveyard hate, and, most importantly, Dark Confidant. I love a good blue draw engine, but this guy is just better. He makes running a streamlined, low cc deck, which is what I enjoy, very easy.

For my first post on this thread, I know that it was incredibly long. Thanks for bearing with me. I hope that this is useful in some way. I would appreciate any comments, and I will not get angry if you are critical. They're just cards.

[Happy Gilmore]

My experiance leads me to belive that any list already running UGB can greatly benefit from running a 4th and even a 5th color. The 5c lists that did well at the VA tournament may be the extreme, but they are surprizingly effective. The best of every single color.

[Shtriga]

at what cost though? the manabases are incredibly shaky when running 4 or 5 colors. I'm already cautious at running 3. there's not a very big reason to run red in addition to black or white anyway, bolt or fire/ice ain't worth splashing

[Jak]

Pyroclasm and Ancient Grudge is. Being able to run Swords, Thoughtseize, and Pyroclasm is retarded.

[Happy Gilmore]

at what cost though? the manabases are incredibly shaky when running 4 or 5 colors. I'm already cautious at running 3. there's not a very big reason to run red in addition to black or white anyway, bolt or fire/ice ain't worth splashing

I've played the 5c list a bit...the manabase is far from shaky. Blood moon is the only card that gives the deck fits. But that was true with most builds anyway. Wasteland does next to nothing, there are too many of each source for someone to effectively cut off any color. The red cards in the board are insanely good and have no real eqivalent in any other color.

REB
Pyroclasm
Ancient Grudge

These three cards are why I played UGR for so long and still do. However, there are many matchup (most of them) , where the 5c build has card superiority. 5c Thresh will steam role every mirror other than Moon Thresh, and even Moon Thresh has a lot of trouble beating 5c preboard.

[Shtriga]

well I have my qualms about it still :) but it could work, yes, the SB cards are quite good, which I overlooked. and would probably have the upper hand on other mirrors

[Adan]

Well, I actually don#t really like the 5color builds. You can do well against Goblins even without Pyroclasm.

Ancient Grudge... I still don't like the card against Stax or Affinity, Trygon Predator always proves to be superior because of it's higher versatility.

Surprisingly, the manabase is not shaky, yes, but I don't like the high amount of Fetchies ogether with a full playset of City of brass and 4 Thoughtseize since you may be dependant on multiple Cities in the worst case.

I also don't like the thought of topping around with a City, and 4 non-Islands within the manabase make Daze suck.

Playing 5color because of Pyroclasms sounds ok, but then I would try something else than City of brass as enablers since Goblin's (that's the reason for SB Pyroclasm I think) Rishadan Ports get even more annoying than they are already.

[Nihil Credo]

Well, I actually don#t really like the 5color builds. You can do well against Goblins even without Pyroclasm.
Especially since you run the colour of Engineered Plague...

(Yes, they can Grip it. Assuming they board it in, given that Plague isn't standard among Black Thresh builds. Assuming they draw as many Grips as you get Plagues, given that they have zero cantrips to your dozen. Assuming you don't Thoughtseize their Grip on turn 1, if you run 'Seize. Assuming that the Simoon effect wasn't enough to tilt the game in your favour anyway. And even if all of that happens, cutting 3 Goblins for Grips still hurt them more than cutting Counterbalance for Plagues hurt you.)

[Happy Gilmore]

Ancient Grudge... I still don't like the card against Stax or Affinity, Trygon Predator always proves to be superior because of it's higher versatility.



I'll give you that Trygon may be better against stax. But in no way is it even remotely better than Grudge against Affinity. They do things with artifacts that kills you during their turn, either sacking their board to a unblocked creature, or dropping a Cranial plating on a flyer and bashing your face in. There isn't even one situation I can think of where I would want a reactive card that takes a turn to come online over a proactive answer that can translate into huge card advantage. The same goes for dragon stompy and equipment.

[thefreakaccident]

I have a 4c build that I would liked to get some suggestions for:

UGWb

Lands//18
4 flooded strand
4 polluted delta
1 island
1 plains
1 swamp
2 tundra
2 underground sea
3 tropical island

creatures//12
4 tarmogoyf
4 nimble mongoose
3 dark confidant
1 mystic enforcer

spells//30
4 swords to plowshares
4 thoughtseize
4 daze
4 force of will
3 sensei’s divining top
3 counterbalance
4 ponder
4 brainstorm


sideboard//
4 ground seal
4 engineered plague
2 pithing needle
2 krosan grip
3 extirpate


I see lots of decks revolving around the grave here, being decks like reanimator, ichorid, and loam... the extirpates and seals have different purposes here.

The MD seems pretty standard, butI really just want to see if the fifth color is really worth it... I was playing it and saw that the agro MUs got better, but other than that there wasn't really much else... Here was the 5c build I had been testing:

lands//18
4 city of brass
4 flooded strand
3 polluted delta
2 tropical island
2 tundra
2 underground sea
1 volcanic island

creatures//11
4 nimble mongoose
4 tarmogoyf
3 dark confidant

spells//31
4 force of will
4 thoughtseize
4 daze
4 swords to plowshares
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
3 counterbalance
3 sensei's divining top
1 engineered explosives

sideboard//
4 pyroclasm (awesome period, almost warrents the fifth color itself)
4 yixlid jailer/extirpate (depends)
3 serenity (stax/challice agro/affinity... CB is bad in those MUs anyways)
2 Red elemental blast
2 pithing needle/grip (depends)


I really like the serenity, it seems to be a forgotten gem... if they don't put challice @ 2 early (which should be difficult with the amount of early disruption)... you can sweep an entire board of affinity/stompy/stax... since these decks either run little or no draw, you have lots of time to do whatever the hell you feel like.

I run confidant in all my builds, because I just don't see a reason not to, he is amazing with other cantrips/tops, is a beater (albeit small one), and is a magnet for swords/creature removal... less removal to hut your goyf.

Please give me some advice on my two builds here... I would appreciate it.

[Nihil Credo]

I have a 4c build that I would liked to get some suggestions for:

UGWb

Lands//18
4 flooded strand
4 polluted delta
1 island
1 plains
1 swamp
2 tundra
2 underground sea
3 tropical island

creatures//12
4 tarmogoyf
4 nimble mongoose
3 dark confidant
1 mystic enforcer

spells//30
4 swords to plowshares
4 thoughtseize
4 daze
4 force of will
3 sensei’s divining top
3 counterbalance
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
You WILL get colourscrewed to HELL with that build and manabase. Take out all basics from your list and play more duals; once you do that, you will still get colourscrewed often and a single Wasteland will still rape you, but not as blatantly as before: you might be able to whine about your game losses without being laughed out of the room. Many people are content with that.

If you aren't, pick either white or black and turn it into a splash colour that you don't need to fetch on turn 1 - in other words, cut either Thoughtseize or Swords to Plowshares - and reduce the manasources for the splash colour to two duals; that should get the deck into the acceptable range of consistency. If you're unwilling to do that, then suck up and play the 5C manabase, about which I can't give you any advice since I have never played with it.

[thefreakaccident]

My original 4c build ran a base like this:

4 trop
3 tundra
3 underground
8 fetch


However, 1-2 wastelands/stilfes usually shut down most of the decks' plays, this is why the basics were incorperated...

I usually play landstill, which is why I was willing to humble myself and ask for your guys' suggestions on threshold... instead, I got a flame and an obviously angry Nihil, no body wants an angry Nihil.

Now, if my post came out as whiny, then there is nothing I can do about that, as you cannot affect how people interpret your writing.

My real issue with the 5c build was the amount of life loss from the slf inflicted damage, now if anyone would be willing to give some advice, please feel free to do so... anyone other than Nihil, he is on time out right now.

[Nihil Credo]

It is very, very difficult to make me become angry, and this was certainly not an instance of it. I tried to be as emphatic as possible about my issues with your manabase because I quite literally twitched in my chair when I looked at it, and the 'whine about colourscrew' comment was an allusion at, well, at people who do exactly that, who are very common in every Magical format. Had I believed that you were already one of them, I would not have followed up with the other suggestion.

I hope there's no hard feelings. Now, back to strategy...


My original 4c build ran a base like this:

4 trop
3 tundra
3 underground
8 fetch

However, 1-2 wastelands/stilfes usually shut down most of the decks' plays, this is why the basics were incorperated...

Hey, that was my exact experience with "full" 4C as well, how funny! Anyway, I think you can see why I recommend that a fourth colour be toned down to a splash: adding basic lands does nothing to prevent getting fucked over by a single Stifle - it worsens that scenario, actually, because you're more likely to topdeck the wrong land. You do improve your game against nonbasic hate, but at the cost of getting more 'natural' colour-screws: you have one land that can't pay for 12 of your spells, and another two that can't pay for twenty-three of them (and that doesn't tell the whole story, because while both Plains and Swamp can pay for Tarmogoyf, you can't actually cast Tarmogoyf with only a Plains and a Swamp)

[diffy]

Cut either Thoughtseize or Swords to Plowshares - and reduce the manasources for the splash colour to two duals.

I'd say that, if any, the Swords to Plowshares can go. For sure it's the best removal spell in the game, but there are replacements out there (Ghastly Demise, Smother) and black is much more vital to that particular list than white: you want the splash early to force a Counterbalance through (Thoughtseize) and to take maximum advantage of your draw engine (Dark Confidant) which are both stronger plays than having access to better removal, especially since you do have outs (Counters, Thoughtseize) to the random stuff the black removal can't kill (Tombstalker for instance).
White could be worthwhile as a small splash for 1-2 Mystic Enforcers or Hoofprints of the Stag [see aYb Hybridfish (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=12111) as reference] as great finishers (fits in the concept of toning down a splash to 1-2 duals - you have access to the splash in the mid- to lategame where you want to cast that finisher), but I personally don't like the inconsistencies brought along by such a, rather unneeded (you can play Tombstalker or Sea Drake if you want any evasive, on color, beaters) splash.

[aTn]

Concerning the 5c list. I like the idea, but I'm far from convinced about the manabase. The Daze argument that Adan brought up is hard to refute (I guess that's a reason the deck plays 3 copies instead of 4, but even that seems more than possible). I'd maybe play Spell Snare instead of Daze in that list. The fact that Goyf Sligh (and hence Price of Progress) sees play in my meta will probably make me skip the 5c boat (since Toughtseize, Bob, City of Brass + burn + PoP seems to make it a hard match-up). I guess the deck works in specific metas (that was 'proven' by the tournament results), but I don't see it working in my meta.

[Happy Gilmore]

Concerning the 5c list. I like the idea, but I'm far from convinced about the manabase. The Daze argument that Adan brought up is hard to refute (I guess that's a reason the deck plays 3 copies instead of 4, but even that seems more than possible). I'd maybe play Spell Snare instead of Daze in that list. The fact that Goyf Sligh (and hence Price of Progress) sees play in my meta will probably make me skip the 5c boat (since Toughtseize, Bob, City of Brass + burn + PoP seems to make it a hard match-up). I guess the deck works in specific metas (that was 'proven' by the tournament results), but I don't see it working in my meta.


The deck plays 14 sources that can fuel Daze along with 4 Thoughtseizes (UGR Canadian thresh has the same number with 4 dazes and does just fine). And I suggest trying the manabase even in a 4 color build, its dead sexy.

Even with a three color build a resolved Price of Progress is going to hurt like hell so I don't understant that arguement all that much. Besides, 5c has multiple ways to answer a Price of Progress even before it becomes dangerous. Say, with a Thoughtseize or a Counterbalance.

Play around with it, test the manabase a bit. I some times find it more stable than some 3c mana bases (such as Canadian Thresh).

[Adan]

The deck plays 14 sources that can fuel Daze along with 4 Thoughtseizes (UGR Canadian thresh has the same number with 4 dazes and does just fine). And I suggest trying the manabase even in a 4 color build, its dead sexy

Ok, that's a true fact that makes my Daze argument quite redundnant.
And the comparison between both manabases is also not really possible (Cities allow you to cast spells on Turn 1, Wasteland doesn't).

You are still able to do "Land (City), Mongoose/Thoughtseize/Ponder". It seems ok so far since 5color Thresh is also nothing more than 4color Thresh with 5-6 red SB cards which can be replaced with other cards with equal effect on the matchups they are used for (Ancient Grudge -> Trygon Predator against artifact-based decks, Pyroclasm -> Engineered Plague against Goblins).

But running City of Brass doesn't allow you to play Dark Confidants since you already have a massive lifeloss (I played against Rock and ended up winning game 1 on 4 life. only 4 of that 16 damage were dealt by him, the rest was dealt to me by myself).

That's why we have to play Mystic Enforcer again since he gives you at least 6 life when he get's sworded. Otherwise he wins you the game :wink:

[Nihil Credo]

I some times find it more stable than some 3c mana bases (such as Canadian Thresh).
This is not surprising, considering that a 3C manabase with Wastelands behaves much like a 4C one - somewhat better in that you don't have any spells in the third splash 'colour', but somewhat worse in that your Wastelands don't produce blue mana.

[aTn]

The deck plays 14 sources that can fuel Daze along with 4 Thoughtseizes (UGR Canadian thresh has the same number with 4 dazes and does just fine). And I suggest trying the manabase even in a 4 color build, its dead sexy.

Agreed with the comparison with Canadian Thresh (bad analysis on my part).


Even with a three color build a resolved Price of Progress is going to hurt like hell so I don't understant that arguement all that much.

In most of my 3c builds, I tend to play at least 2 basic lands (Island + Forest + sometimes one land of the color I'm splashing). When playing against Goyf Sligh (which sometimes packs mana-denial in the form of Wasteland, in my neck of the woods anyhow), the mid/late-game often finds me having a board with 2 basic lands in and 1-2 duals in play. In that case, PoP isn't that much of a threat. It's clear that CB and counterspells save the day against PoP, but sometimes you need to counter Fireblasts, etc. in order to... well, not die (Thoughtseize also helps). Good Goyf Sligh players tend to force such choices against decks with high non-basic land counts. Anyhow, just my personal experience.


Play around with it, test the manabase a bit. I some times find it more stable han some 3c mana bases (such as Canadian Thresh).

I'll definitely try it for sure. Not having tested the manabase yet, my perception is, I'm sure, far from reality on that subject.

[Solknar]

thank you Der Imaginare Freund for your advise and your help. yuor list look pretty good,, but i'm still little worry with the loss of life. i will test it and post after.

Solknar

[raharu]

Is there any particular reason that one couldn't use Gemstone Mine or another, less painful gold land as the enabler to make 5c thresh work? City of Brass is more often tha not used to fix your colors in the early game and then generally left untouched later on, i.e. past turns 3-5. With Mine, you have the same functionallity without the life loss.

[Citrus-God]

Gemstone Mine sucks because apparently, the mirror is also about land drops. Control MUs are about land drops for a reasonable amount of turns, and of course you will be tapping City of Brass over and over again pumping cantrips, threats, and removal. You will lose a lot of life, but at the same time, the you will eventually become the aggressor because of supperior control elements like Thoughtseize, Swords, and a plethora of free counters while a Goyf and Goose gets dropped and bashes face compared to your opponent trying to struggle against this wave of aggression but ended up losing everything too early in the game. The 5c color builds, were in a way, play out more like the older NQG lists in which you try and win attrition wars and then proceed to drop threats while the opponent is under exhaust. 5c Thresh does this! It Thoughtseizes quality threats and control elements as well as a chance to snatch some info, answer threats with early game removal like Swords, and solid threats like CB and friends.

Also Dark Confidant isnt that baller. If you want an FoF-like card, I'd recommend Night's Whisper.

[kiwi]

I think that Guttural response deserves its slot in the sideboard of this deck.
With Guttural response we can counter stifles, force of will, brainstorms, ponders, counter spell and more random blue stuff.

IMO Guttural response its a very good option for the sideboard if you havent red lands in your deck.

[Mental]

I think that Guttural response deserves its slot in the sideboard of this deck.
With Guttural response we can counter stifles, force of will, brainstorms, ponders, counter spell and more random blue stuff.

IMO Guttural response its a very good option for the sideboard if you havent red lands in your deck.

Does UGr Thresh run REB in it's sideboard? Of course not. Why should this deck play a worse version?

That's my take, anyway.

[Illissius]

Does UGr Thresh run REB in it's sideboard? Of course not.

Actually, it sometimes does. Witness the recent Threshold lists going 5C so they could sideboard Pyroclasm and REB.

You are correct that Guttural Response is garbage, of course.

[Elf_Ascetic]

Most lists run REB. Or Pyroblast, which is the better one. (For those of you who don't know: you can play pyroblast on a non-blue permanent and thereby creating ********. It's impossible with REB.)

[Adan]

Most lists run REB. Or Pyroblast, which is the better one. (For those of you who don't know: you can play pyroblast on a non-blue permanent and thereby creating ********. It's impossible with REB.)

Oldschoolish trick to accelerate into Threshold, yes. Or in case of TES to increase stormcount. That's why you even boarded them in against some matchups where you actually didn't need them just tu get rid of clunky/dead cards.

But so fucking what, that doesn't justify the inclusion of Guttural Response, a lot of UGr Thresh-builds didn't run REBs.

[Citrus-God]

But so fucking what, that doesn't justify the inclusion of Guttural Response, a lot of UGr Thresh-builds didn't run REBs.

Apparently, that's changing now; even the 5c lists are running REB. REB helps resolve certain key cards against control, versatile in the mirror, and obviously it's better than Daze for counterwars. Saying that REB in sucks in the sideboard is like saying Pyroclasm is shit in Thresh except this time it's an argument over what are the best cards to use against the mirror and control.

[Adan]

Apparently, that's changing now; even the 5c lists are running REB. REB helps resolve certain key cards against control, versatile in the mirror, and obviously it's better than Daze for counterwars. Saying that REB in sucks in the sideboard is like saying Pyroclasm is shit in Thresh except this time it's an argument over what are the best cards to use against the mirror and control.

I never said Pyroclasm would suck, I just think it's overrated. With straight tempogaming (pressure...) and well-timed BEBs, you can win against Goblins, even without Pyroclasms.

Pyroclasms could be useful against Ichorid as well, but there are cards like Engineered Plague and Engineered Explosives which are even more versatile than Pyroclasm. Ok, true, Pyroblast might be excellent against Landstill for example, but there are always alternatives which could easily replace the red cards. Spell Snare is a good example.

But I'm still tickled by 5color Thresh somehow, since it really allows you to play the "best-ofs" without being incredibly inconsistent thanks to Cities of Brass, but I'm afraid I won't be playing Legacy for the next month...

[kkoie]

Not to change the subject or anything, but I have been working on a UGb list that I think may do fairly well. I haven't had a chance to test it in a tournament yet, hopefully I will soon. So far my only concern is the manabase, it seems that if my opponent draws multiple wastelands I'm hosed, so I wonder if I should try and find a way to add another island by cutting a spell, though I could be just acting paranoid. I haven't quite finished my sb yet (virtually no combo in the local meta at the moment). Anyway here is my current list:

Lands:
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp

Draw:
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Mental Note

Creatures:
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Tombstalker

Distruption:
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spellsnare
4 Thoughtseize
4 Ghastly Demise
3 Perniscous Deed
1 Chain of Vapor

Sb:
3 Krosan Grip
3 Pithin Needle
2 Echoing Truth
2 Engineered Explosives
5 ?

Anyway I know that many will wonder why I have no bobs. I was getting tired of constantly flipping high casting cost spells and taking loads of damage, at least until I would drop a sensei's divining top. So I wanted to try a bobless ver. that also let me include the tombstalkers as a finisher. In testing it's worked pretty well so far.

I have the deeds in the main because I liked the idea of being able to completely sweep the board in the 1st game, specially with lots of aggro and aggro control in my area, like goblins and madness.

[Adan]

Not to change the subject or anything, but I have been working on a UGb list that I think may do fairly well. I haven't had a chance to test it in a tournament yet, hopefully I will soon. So far my only concern is the manabase, it seems that if my opponent draws multiple wastelands I'm hosed, so I wonder if I should try and find a way to add another island by cutting a spell, though I could be just acting paranoid. I haven't quite finished my sb yet (virtually no combo in the local meta at the moment). Anyway here is my current list:

Lands:
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp

Draw:
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Mental Note

Creatures:
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Tombstalker

Distruption:
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spellsnare
4 Thoughtseize
4 Ghastly Demise
3 Perniscous Deed
1 Chain of Vapor

Sb:
3 Krosan Grip
3 Pithin Needle
2 Echoing Truth
2 Engineered Explosives
5 ?

Anyway I know that many will wonder why I have no bobs. I was getting tired of constantly flipping high casting cost spells and taking loads of damage, at least until I would drop a sensei's divining top. So I wanted to try a bobless ver. that also let me include the tombstalkers as a finisher. In testing it's worked pretty well so far.

I have the deeds in the main because I liked the idea of being able to completely sweep the board in the 1st game, specially with lots of aggro and aggro control in my area, like goblins and madness.

Flipping high-cost cards? You have to cut Tombstalker when you run Dark Confidant, did you know? Anyways, the average manacurve of my build:

// Lands
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [A] Tropical Island
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [R] Underground Sea
2 [B] Island (3)

// Creatures
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [LRW] Ponder
3 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [OD] Ghastly Demise
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [FUT] Yixlid Jailer
SB: 4 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 2 [DIS] Trygon Predator
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip

is... 1,21666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666...

So Dark Confidant should not really be a problem.

Ok, maybe you can run Tombstalker, but Pernicious Deed is contradictory to threshold's concept and should not be played.

[kkoie]

I didn't include stalker with the ver. that had bob. Once I took bob out I noticed that it could then support stalker as a finisher.

I liked the idea of deed over explosives because though it does nail my creatures, it is much more effective against heavy aggro decks that run a variety of casting costs, as well as more effective against affinity style decks and stax decks. That and it feeds 'goyf. And my metagame has more aggro decks than anything else. So I figured I was willing to sacrifice 1 creature to elminiate all of theirs.

[raharu]

Tombstalker shrinks all your other creatures and Deed wipes your board, neither of which are going to help in the agro match. If you want anti-agro tech, try splashing black for Terminate and Pyroclasm. It's a little done color combonation that will throw off most opponents g1 and bolster you agro/ token combo MU's and provide great removal.

[chokin]

Tombstalker shrinks all your other creatures and Deed wipes your board, neither of which are going to help in the agro match. If you want anti-agro tech, try splashing black for Terminate and Pyroclasm. It's a little done color combonation that will throw off most opponents g1 and bolster you agro/ token combo MU's and provide great removal.

I think you meant to say splash red :P

Deeds looks awful here. The idea would be to keep your beats down. I wish Stalker could be in this deck. In the mirror, he dodges CB, Spell Snare, should dodge Daze, takes 2 burn spells to down, immune to Demise and Smother. If resolved, he's really only stopped by STP in the mirror and flies over Goyf. I know the downside is huge though: removes cards in the GY, can cost a buttload otherwise, Confidant flips=pain.

I just wish there was a way to run this guy. :(

[Adan]

I think you meant to say splash red :P

Deeds looks awful here. The idea would be to keep your beats down. I wish Stalker could be in this deck. In the mirror, he dodges CB, Spell Snare, should dodge Daze, takes 2 burn spells to down, immune to Demise and Smother. If resolved, he's really only stopped by STP in the mirror and flies over Goyf. I know the downside is huge though: removes cards in the GY, can cost a buttload otherwise, Confidant flips=pain.

I just wish there was a way to run this guy. :(

No misunderstandings here, Tombstalker is a incredibly cool and good creature, but I think he just doesn't fit here.

If someone wants to play Tombstalker, he should reduce permanents as far as possible and should cut Nimble Mongoose and Ghastly Demise to avoid "design fail".

Yesterday when i was playing BalancedSur/NQS, i killes myself within 3 turns with Confidant by flipping Force, genesis and another Force afterwards. No kidding, such moments are frustrating like hell.

Flipping 1 Force of Will with Dark Confidant isn't bad at all, the opponents always begins to laugh at you, but having Dark Confidant on the table with Force to protect him or yourself from any annoying stuff is... quite mighty.

Anyways, we have to compensate Nimble Mongoose somehow. Dark Confidant seems to be fine, but together with Tombstalker...no. So we need alternatives.

Since I don't have any better ideas right now, we COULD try Spellstutter Sprites, just like in NQS since they allow some cool tricks and counter removal.

it might look a littlebit Goofy, but it could be a basic:

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [A] Tropical Island
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [R] Underground Sea
1 [B] Island (3)

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [LRW] Spellstutter Sprite
3 [FUT] Tombstalker

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [LRW] Ponder
3 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [ON] Smother
2 [JU] Mental Note

More cantrips seem to be necessary since you ant to fuel your graveyard efficiently and generate hughe CQ to protect your creatures/yourself/your boardposition.

What I also like about Tombstalker is that he somehow ensures that you won't get fucked up by Pernicious Deed too badly.

[Citrus-God]

I never said Pyroclasm would suck, I just think it's overrated. With straight tempogaming (pressure...) and well-timed BEBs, you can win against Goblins, even without Pyroclasms.

Playing BEB means leaving mana open instead of playing threats and cantrips. With Pyroclasm, you can play threats earlier and not feel the need to leave mana open for BEB so that when those threats do get played, you have Clasm to fall back on. Pyroclasm doesnt not only relieves you of pressure, but they also put you in a dominant position in which you become the Aggressor. It's not hard chaining cantrips to find a Clasm or two, but it is hard trying to make your own mistakes by not applying pressure towards your opponent yourself just to make BEB effective. I dont think Pyroclasm is overrated, I think it wants where credits due.



Pyroclasms could be useful against Ichorid as well, but there are cards like Engineered Plague and Engineered Explosives which are even more versatile than Pyroclasm. Ok, true, Pyroblast might be excellent against Landstill for example, but there are always alternatives which could easily replace the red cards. Spell Snare is a good example.

Pyroclasms destroy zombie tokens, Narcomoebas, and Imps. EE kills only tokens. E-Plague only destroys Ichorids, Imps, and Moebas. Clasms should control the board while Swords to Plowshares plows Ichorids.

Spell Snare cant be compared to Pyroblast. Spell Snare counters Counterbalance and Goyfs, but they dont help you win counter wars. Pyroblast on the other hand dont help you from Goyfs but they do counter CB, but they help you win counter wars over cards like Geddon. Even against Landstill, you might rather want to counter FoW sometimes.

[chokin]

No misunderstandings here, Tombstalker is a incredibly cool and good creature, but I think he just doesn't fit here.

If someone wants to play Tombstalker, he should reduce permanents as far as possible and should cut Nimble Mongoose and Ghastly Demise to avoid "design fail".

Yesterday when i was playing BalancedSur/NQS, i killes myself within 3 turns with Confidant by flipping Force, genesis and another Force afterwards. No kidding, such moments are frustrating like hell.

Flipping 1 Force of Will with Dark Confidant isn't bad at all, the opponents always begins to laugh at you, but having Dark Confidant on the table with Force to protect him or yourself from any annoying stuff is... quite mighty.

Anyways, we have to compensate Nimble Mongoose somehow. Dark Confidant seems to be fine, but together with Tombstalker...no. So we need alternatives.

Since I don't have any better ideas right now, we COULD try Spellstutter Sprites, just like in NQS since they allow some cool tricks and counter removal.

it might look a littlebit Goofy, but it could be a basic:

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [A] Tropical Island
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [R] Underground Sea
1 [B] Island (3)

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [LRW] Spellstutter Sprite
3 [FUT] Tombstalker

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [LRW] Ponder
3 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [ON] Smother
2 [JU] Mental Note

More cantrips seem to be necessary since you ant to fuel your graveyard efficiently and generate hughe CQ to protect your creatures/yourself/your boardposition.

What I also like about Tombstalker is that he somehow ensures that you won't get fucked up by Pernicious Deed too badly.

This almost looks like that old HanniFish deck. At least in part. Could we use Portent/Serum Visions(whoa!)/othercantrip in place of Note? I've never liked Note. I think adding Thoughtseize helps fuel your yard and grow Goyf. It's hard finding good cheap creatures for this deck without relying on Thresh.

Not sure on how this will do compared to the more standard build with Demise/Goose/Confidant. I guess if you fear the mirror or Deeds, maybe people could look into something similar. Stalker is hot. I'd like to see him run in a Thresh or Thresh-esque deck.

[lavafrogg]

Hey guys,
I have been playing this build and have had a great deal of sucess with it.

Creatures 12
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf

Enchantments 3
3 Bitterblossom

Spells 27
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Portent
4 Thoughtsieze
3 Stifle
4 Smother

Land 18
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Island

SB 15
4 grip/perdator
4 extirpate
3 spell snare
4 engineered plauge

Card Choices:
Thoughtsieze- MVP of the deck. Let me say that again. MVP of the deck. allows you to take the best card in the opponents hand, period. Often cast on turns two or three, this spell is always devestating. Combined with the other cards in the deck it can effectively neuter an opponents entire hand ie take the only card you cannot answer (smother that, stifle that, counter that)

Bitterblossom- this card pulls double duty in this deck, it is the finisher when the ground is clogged and creates a steady stream of chump blockers when needed. The bitterblossom needs to be answered and the tokens need to be answered...truely devestating

Portent-Why play portent over the other cantrips? Simply the ability to target the opponent. After stifling a fetch and wasting a dual the ability to deny the land draws is like 2-3 time walks. It also works after you have thoughtsiezed and countered their only playable threats. It also can be cast to find a counterspell on the opponents turn. Even in top deck mode you can target your enemy to male sure they dont draw their bomb off the top.

Smother- is chosen over other black removal due to the ability to hit dark confidant and phyrexian dreadnought which are very bad cards to see on the other side of the board. It also hits almost every other relevant creature you might see in the legacy format. The only creatures it cant hit that you might see are arc slogger, gathan raiders, tombstalker and exalted angel and god forbid you let those resolve unchecked. (you should have chumpblockers or alot of damage on the board)

Stifle/Wasteland- these can be cut for spell snares and a better manabase but as i love to say "go big or go home"

4x dark confidant- if you are taking damage from these you are winning the game

The rest of the cards are fairly self explanatory

Match ups
I have been playing thresh since the beginning of the new format and this is the hardest thresh deck I have ever piloted.

VS Mirror Match
60-40
Bitterblossom is the MVP of this match. Bitterblossom is your finisher and it can come down turn two. Thoughtsieze and confidants will win you the game if you let them. Beware of wastelands with your stifles in the u/g/temp thresh matchups and you should be able to out power the opponent.

VS Dragon Stompy
50-50
This deck is scary but you do not care about any of their creatures and cannot let their prison elements resolve. Thoughtsieze goes miles in letting this happen. Also wasting the colorless lands can win you the game. Games two and three brings in grips/predator which can go a long way in winning a game. P.S. they have no card advantage outside of equipment so they tend to run out of steam quickly.

VS Combo
70-30
About as good as a match can get, you have discard, counters and a fast clock all of which spell doom for a combo player. Games two and three brings in exterpates and spell snares more good times...

VS Goblins
40-60
Hard...Hard...Hard...I suffer from Bardos disease in that my decks are good against most of the field but bad against goblins. Stifle wastelands and play tarmogoyfs. Keeping your lands in play is key. Post board you have plauge which helps alot

VS Landstill
60-40
Should be an easy win because you should be able to win before they get set up. Bad things can happen so be carefull...smother kills dreadnought and bitterblossom flies over man lands. Stifle is for board sweepers and counters are savbed for removal or massive card advantage. Extirpate does amazing things after boarding.

VS Random Aggro
60-40
Tarmogoyf and Bob usually do what they do best. Counter what yoiu are scared of and bitterblossom ftw

VS Burn
50-50
Due to the lifeloss this matchup can be scary but is far from unwinnable, they have no CA so daze anything and force anything that can kill you. Thoughsieze is early game only and should take fireblast, magma jet or anything that can deal more than 2 to you. G2 brings spell snares that counters incinerates, and price of progress which is great. They bring in cards that clog up their draws.

Alot of my testing is on MWS and with friends seeing how there is no legacy in AZ my playing is quite limited. Topics of discussion I would like to see are bitterblossom, smother, the sideboard, and thoughtsiezes.
Good times!

[Nihil Credo]

I like your build, except for one thing... holy life loss, Batman.

OK, Bitterblossom can pay for itself against aggro by chump-blocking, but I'm not the only one who found both 'Seize and Confidant in the same deck excessive (and this was in decks running Divining Tops).

In a combo/control metagame this build should kick ass, though.

A lesser issue is that your manabase seems shaky. 14 coloured lands, including a basic island, are really skirting it. Especially when you only run 8 cantrips.

Which brings us to Portent. I recognize its usefulness in a land denial subtheme (Time Stretch for U, cantripping, is quite ridiculous); however, you are also running 15 permanents. Predict is fine to draw off a Portent, but I would say that for Dark Confidant you really want a Ponder.

[Omega]

Lifeloss seems unbearable :
dark confidant + bitterblossom = a 1 - 6 life loss per turn
thoughtseize = -2 life
force of will + fetchland = -1 life each

This said, the deck can be good. Cards like dark confidant or even Bitterblossom can win the game alone. However, when mixed together into the deck soup, i think the life loss is too great.

I would cut the 3 bitterblossom for 3 ponder, maybe,,,

Robert

[Adan]

I have been playing thresh since the beginning of the new format and this is the hardest thresh deck I have ever piloted.

Maybe this is because your build is highly suboptimal.

It has got a huge amount of lifeloss and is simply inferior to any build already presented here (meaning my CBalanced Build and Oddball's Tempobuild).

I won a 20-man tournament in Heidelberg with this build:

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [A] Tropical Island
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [R] Underground Sea
1 [B] Island (3)

// Creatures
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
1 [OD] Ghastly Demise
3 [ON] Smother

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 4 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 3 [DIS] Trygon Predator
SB: 2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague

Counterbalance is definitely the better way to generate CA. Dark Confidant also fits in very well due to SDT. This is the rather control-oriented version of ********/b. There's also a aggressive concept that tries to generate speedadvantage. this should be similar to your build, but with less suboptimal cards. It tries to avoid too situational cards. Try this one:

// Lands
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [A] Tropical Island
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [B] Underground Sea
1 [B] Island (3)
3 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [LRW] Ponder
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [PLC] Extirpate
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [SC] Stifle
1 [OD] Ghastly Demise
3 [ON] Smother

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [FUT] Yixlid Jailer
SB: 4 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
SB: 1 [B] Swamp (1)
SB: 2 [DIS] Trygon Predator

[b4r0n]

Adan, in both of those lists there's a 3/1 split between Smother and Ghastly Demise for removal. Is there a reason for this split? What is Ghastly Demise there to answer that Smother is unable to handle?

[frolll]

I may risk an answer here ?
Two words : Goblin. Lackey. IMHO, that's why there's a split; to give an additionnal out against Goblins on the draw in game 1.

And BTW, Ghatsly Demise isn't too bad... ;) In the original (some would say "primitve") lists, I think the black cards runned were 4 Confidant and 4 Demise, plus 4 Thoughtseizes... But hey, Smother does solve black creatures, and Terravore/Countryside Crusher (for example), i.e. creatures with toughness bigger than your graveyard.

My humble 2 cents =) (I'm currently testing the list of Adan, but with a 2/2 split on the removal suite, and -2 Shackles on the sb, added the fourth Extirpate and the fourth Trygon Predator, so far it's good)

[lavafrogg]

Holy lifeloss...
Bitterblossom is this decks version of fledgeling dragon and mystic enforcer. It has been my experience that if you are losing life then you are winning. Casting multiple thoughtsiezes wins games as does dark confidants card draw and if bitterblossom is hurting you then the fairies are doing their job.
This deck is a prime example of a black mage giving life for power...i love it

[Omega]

lifeloss isnt always equal to game winning... ive survived game when opponent had a Dark confidant in play. Guess i was lucky, because he drawed crap and died of it. But hey, that can happen right?

Ive won game when opponent dropped BitterBlossom fast. Put 2 goyfs, and that's enough preassure.

all three cards : thoughtseize, dark confidant and bitterblossom, are very good cards. But i think running all three in the same deck is unbearable. You will likely make yourself vulnerable to opponent's threats

Robert

[Mental]

Holy lifeloss...
Bitterblossom is this decks version of fledgeling dragon and mystic enforcer. It has been my experience that if you are losing life then you are winning. Casting multiple thoughtsiezes wins games as does dark confidants card draw and if bitterblossom is hurting you then the fairies are doing their job.
This deck is a prime example of a black mage giving life for power...i love it

Aggro Zombies was testing a Thresh list that played 4 Bitterblossom at one point. If I remember, the card was good but it made the list a little slow. Plus, what would you cut?

[Adan]

Adan, in both of those lists there's a 3/1 split between Smother and Ghastly Demise for removal. Is there a reason for this split? What is Ghastly Demise there to answer that Smother is unable to handle?

Ghastly Demise handles things that Smother can't. You figured it out. ;-)

Plus, I expected a lot of fish-like deck. Demise is played to avoid Meddling Mage hurting you too bad. But they both are good, so which constellation you are playing is quite irrelevant, it just depends on what meta you are expecting.

[Crus4der]

Why Noone Plays Shadowmage Infiltrator IMO he is a really good Guy he draws Cards and make a little bit damage....????

[Nihil Credo]

Why Noone Plays Shadowmage Infiltrator IMO he is a really good Guy he draws Cards and make a little bit damage....????
Mishra's Factory, mostly. Landstill is a common and difficult matchup where drawing cards is critical.

[fallenphoenix]

I actually tried him for a while, he is definetly a great guy to have on the table.
If u run wastelands/Stifle (which i did in this build), Factory is not a real big deal.

The only problem is, he does not help your clock and he comes down late.

I played him over Seadrake/Tombstalker in the 3rd creatur slot, and that was a problem sometimes, because these slots are generally devoted to add pressure to the deck.
The CA of Infiltrator might eventually win u the game, if he is left unanswered, but it might take a while and your Opp has lots of time to draw an out. Even if u manage to draw two or three cards off him, you still have invested 3 mana for 2-3 cards, which is not game-breaking. If your Opp. lets you draw 3+ cards, your lucky :P

Great guy to have under CB/StD, which gives him shroud-like protection and helps you dig for anwsers for things, your CB can't handle.

[Adan]

Great guy to have under CB/StD, which gives him shroud-like protection and helps you dig for anwsers for things, your CB can't handle.

Having Sea Drake/Dark Confidant under CB/Top is better. ;-)

In compairison to Dark Confidant, he comes down and draws a card 1 Turn later. His stats are also very strange, 1/3 fear for CC3 is quite expansive.

So he's neither useful as a beater/weenie nor than as a efficient Carddrawing engine since he get's redundant when the poonent has got something to block him. But Dark Confidant draws cards steadily and fits very well into the CB/Top-Shell (i.e. the concept of my list).

On the other side, Oddball's tempobuild has got such a low manacurve that it's not bad to also run 4 of them, but Shadowmage Infiltrator seems to be too slow and too bad for the tempobuild since he's expansive and requires you sometimes not to use Wasteland so you can cast him.

Dark Confidant is superior in every way to Shadowmage, mainly because he's cheaper to cast, thus getting you the lost Turn back, drawing cards steadily without doing anything (therefore, he can chump after some time) and 2/1 for 2 mana makes him a quite good weenie you can sometimes also go beat with. These 2 damage don't sound very amazing, but sometimes it does matter. :wink:

[Crus4der]

I play both of them 4 Confidant 3 Infiltrator Confidant is better than the infiltrator thats no question...

[Bane of the Living]

I think running Bitterblossom is a no brainer. Confidant and Thoughtseize were alot of life loss with fetches to begin with. Why not just add Jitte to counteract the life loss. The deck could really use the removal since Ghastly Demise sucks. BB would provide plenty of bodies for the equipment, a lack of which was the only thing really stopping the deck from playing it.

[Joon]

I play both of them 4 Confidant 3 Infiltrator Confidant is better than the infiltrator thats no question...

Uhm...Could I see the list? I've found NO space for both.

[lavafrogg]

Jitte would give us a reason to cut mongoose which I do not want to do. We could take out the one random demise and leave the three smothers and the jitte could fill that role. Sort of like the random pithing needle in old Ugw lists.

[Crus4der]

My Decklist is something like this:

4 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
1 Volrath´s Stronghold
4 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Forest

Creatures (15)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Shadowmage Infiltrator

Spells (27)
3 Repeal
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Smother
4 Thoughtseize
1 Ghastly Demise

[lavafrogg]

63 cards?
Volraths stronghold?
Solo forest?
Three shadowmage????
Cut the shadowmage and fix your manabase and you have a pretty standard Ugb decklist. Add some spicy and add a bitterblossom or three...

[b4r0n]

Solo forest?

It may be a bit silly, but this is the second biggest reason I prefer white Thresh over black Thresh: you simply can't run a basic Forest in black Thresh because you have no way to fetch it out.

@ Crus4der: I'd strongly recommend playing Adan's list. It's really solid. The only changes you'd have to make are:

-3 Infiltrator
-1 Forest
-1 Stronghold
-3 Repeal
+4 Counterbalance
+1 Flooded Strand

Counterbalance seems like a better source of card advantage than Infiltrator anyways, and the 8th fetchland will be much better for your manabase than an off-color basic and a colorless land.

[Adan]

Cut the shadowmage and fix your manabase and you have a pretty standard Ugb decklist.

No, because he has neither the tempo-concept with Stifle, Waste, Spell Snare and Extirpate nor the controlish concept with CBalance-Engine and Thoughtseize (ok, he has got Thoughtseize, but whatever). But trying to play a mish-mash always ends up like in a typical RL situation:

If you do 2 things at the same time, the results of both things will only be at 50%.


@ Crus4der: I'd strongly recommend playing Adan's list. It's really solid.

Thanks. It won me a 20-man tourney recently, I guess I built a quite solid list. But credits to Machinus for his list, it was very useful as a base. But try Oddball's tempobuild as well, it's also very strong.


The only changes you'd have to make are:

-3 Infiltrator
-1 Forest
-1 Stronghold
-3 Repeal
+4 Counterbalance
+1 Flooded Strand

Counterbalance seems like a better source of card advantage than Infiltrator anyways, and the 8th fetchland will be much better for your manabase than an off-color basic and a colorless land.

You are missing 3 Sensei's Divining Top.

[Mental]

No, because he has neither the tempo-concept with Stifle, Waste, Spell Snare and Extirpate nor the controlish concept with CBalance-Engine and Thoughtseize (ok, he has got Thoughtseize, but whatever). But trying to play a mish-mash always ends up like in a typical RL situation:

If you do 2 things at the same time, the results of both things will only be at 50%.



Thanks. It won me a 20-man tourney recently, I guess I built a quite solid list. But credits to Machinus for his list, it was very useful as a base. But try Oddball's tempobuild as well, it's also very strong.



You are missing 3 Sensei's Divining Top.

Adan, would you recommend Dark Confidant in a UGB tempo build? I've heard it's unnecessary, but the raw power of the card makes me think that it would be strong.

[b4r0n]

You are missing 3 Sensei's Divining Top.

Yeah, my mistake. I think I just assumed he was already running them.

[georgjorge]

I've a suggestion that may sound strange, but with which I had some success. The result may not be deserved to be called Threshold anymore though...basically, you take a Ugb CBalance Thresh list and do

-4 Ponder
-2 Mongoose
-2 Explosives/Needle/Tombstalker/whatever you run in that slot

+4 Standstill
+4 Mishras Factory

Having extra land enables you to cut Ponders (which often dig for land), and to run Standstill. Standstill is basically a harder-to-use Ponder which doesn't let you select one of three cards, but gives you all of them. You can play it on an empty board against many decks, and against many other decks if you have a Factory, Top or creature down. It essentially brings your count of insane card advantage engines up to ten (4 Still, 3 CBalance, 3 Confidant), and it is also useful against decks which are normally not a good matchup, like Rock or Stax (if not Landstill, of course). This build can also use Deed in the sideboard much better than regular Thresh.

I encourage you to try it out...if you do that build, there are still some slots that may not be optimal, but I've been very surprised with the power it has myself.

[conboy31]

What are your thoughts of Daze being packed with Standstill (in a threshish build)? At first glance it looked off, but they might end up complimenting each other. When you don't have Standstill out, Daze is usually great through 3 turns. If you do have standstill out, then when they break it the cards you draw will replace the dead daze from everyone having lands.

[b4r0n]

Once you start to add Standstills and Factories, you get mighty close to becoming a Dreadless version of Dreadstill. In fact, you should ask yourself: why not just play Dreadstill?

Also, Standstill just doesn't seem to fit in well with Threshold's gameplan. It's pretty situational, and doesn't seem very synergistic with the rest of the deck. Thresh is all about controlling the game long enough to win, and generating card quality is enough to do that. Cards that do generate card advantage in the deck (like Predict or Dark Confidant) are often included due to their synergy with the rest of the deck (stacking the library or having low average mana costs). Standstill doesn't really synergize with the deck at all.

[mackaber]

I think the only time when you'd want to play Standstill in Thresh is if your running Vial.

EDIT: VS. MODING

[Citrus-God]

You realize that playing Standstills make your aggro match-ups weaker, you make more aggressive mulligans, and your early game is being weakened.

[georgjorge]

Also, Standstill just doesn't seem to fit in well with Threshold's gameplan. It's pretty situational, and doesn't seem very synergistic with the rest of the deck. Thresh is all about controlling the game long enough to win, and generating card quality is enough to do that. Cards that do generate card advantage in the deck (like Predict or Dark Confidant) are often included due to their synergy with the rest of the deck (stacking the library or having low average mana costs).

I realize that there's not SO much synergy here, but the power level of the card might still warrant its inclusion. But it might be true that Predict is better...


You realize that playing Standstills make your aggro match-ups weaker, you make more aggressive mulligans, and your early game is being weakened.

Why more aggressive mulligans ? You play less Cantrips but more lands...

As for the aggro matchup, that's true, but like I said I'm more worried about the Control matchup (especially Rock, Stax and Landstill).


I also realize that it makes the deck more similar to Dreadstill. I prefer it to Dreadstill though because in the current meta almost everything that kills Goyf kills Nought as well, and you'll lose CA if a Nought gets killed (not to mention the heavily played Grip that kills Nought all day long). Also, Trinket Mage is somewhat clunky in my opinion, and Chalice at one hurts that deck far more than this one.

[Adan]

Standstill is garbage since it's a highly situational card. if you want to generate CA in a other way than Dark Confidant, play Predict or Accumulated Knowledge.

But the concept of Standstill in NQG makes you less aggressive. i already found Counterbalance to be very situational, Standstill is even more. Counterbalance already generates CA, but in campairison to Standstill, it pretty much breaks a lot of the format. Except when your Meta is random like here in Hassloch where you have to face decks like Affinity and Stax which can ignore Counterbalance which means you have at least 4 dead cards. SDt isn't really dead since it generates CQ and rocks with Dark Confidant, but CBalance sucks like hell against Goblins, Stax, Dragonstompy, Rock, that Dave Gearheart Tog-Pile and 43Land. And Ichorid. And Faerie Stompy.

[Citrus-God]

Why more aggressive mulligans ? You play less Cantrips but more lands...

Because you'll probably end up mulling a hand of

Factory
Factory
Factory
Standstill
Fetchland
Daze
Swords to Plowshares

On the draw against Vial Goblins. Sure you have an answer to Lackey, but it requires you to fetch a non-blue basic lands or a Tundra. Bad play against Vial Goblins. At least Ponder will help you filter your draws to find those other blue sources.


As for the aggro matchup, that's true, but like I said I'm more worried about the Control matchup (especially Rock, Stax and Landstill).

Stax doesnt care for the new draw engine, you already beat The Rock because of CB/Top, and Landstill has a better game against you because they take a better advantage of Standstill. So if you play a Standstill, it's in their favor.

[raharu]

Team Battletoadz (obviously you can tell it's bad already) has been pondering a thresh-still-land-stand monster hybrid baby for the past few weeks, but cutting other slots outside Ponder for Standstills and Manlands+Crucibles. The end results are always lackluster. Perhaps it's MWS, perhaps it's just our execution, but it's not that strong. In a white shell over black though, so perpahs... One never knows. It's still prolly terrible though. Factories w/o Crucibles are just silly though, there's not a point inrunning one and not the other.

On a side note, the conclusion that I've come up with (in order to explain why Standstill in agro is bad idea to another player) is that Standstill is good in straight control because they don't want anything on the board, so Standstill synergizes with their central game plan. Deed for x, Standstill on top of an empty board. Agro (and by extension, agro-control) wants to keep some number of threats on the board at all times. Inasmuch, Standstill doesn't pair well with those decks because you have to obtain a superior board state and apply enough pressure to force them to pop the Standstill. If you make enough play mistakes (sometimes just one, or perhaps you just didn't have enough information to forsee something cataclysmic happening to your board state), Standstill turns from a boon to a liability and could loose you the game.

Also, in a deck like Landstill, drawing 3 cards means you have roughly a 2 in 3 chance (or a 3 in 5, which ever is more accurate) of drawing some form of answer to whatever spell cracked the 'Still with each draw, so the threat that was importatn enough to break the Standstill is going to be neutralized either on the spot or next turn. In a deck like threshold, you are more likely to have something akin to a 1 in 6 chance in drawing an answer (if you count the possibility of Brainstorm drawing you into an answer at instant speed) to answer it on the stack if they've tapped out to play it, and the same chances to answer the threat if it was a creature that wasn't stupidly overextended into (i.e. within Daze range). Threshold is a resource-light deck. You are even more likely to wiff into non-answers than Landstill is from the draw three because you only have a small number of answers in the deck comparatively.

Most likely, you would have to change the entire framework and playstyle of the deck in order to achieve what the aim of Standstill+manlands in Thresh seems to be.

[Omega]

Standstill has no place in ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh.. For the above reasons. Plus, the fact that ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh run little land compared to landstill and that it doesnt run mass removal like Pernicious Deed, it is very difficult to abuse Standstill.

Robert

[lavafrogg]

This list just top 8ed

Date: May 11th, 2008
Location: Pordenone
Players: 56
UGB Threshold w/ Bitterblossom

Creatures (12)
4 x Dark Confidant
4 x Tarmogoyf
4 x Nimble Mongoose

Spells (29)
4 x Brainstorm
4 x Daze
4 x Force of Will
4 x Ponder
4 x Spell Snare
3 x Bitterblossom
3 x Stifle
3 x Ghastly Demise

Lands (19)
4 x Tropical Island
4 x Polluted Delta
3 x Flooded Strand
3 x Underground Sea
2 x Island
1 x Forest
1 x Swamp
1 x Bayou

Sideboard (15)
4 x Extirpate
3 x Engineered Plague
3 x Krosan Grip
2 x Hydroblast
2 x Tormod's Crypt
1 x Ghastly Demise

No discard elements but bitterblossom and spell snare main. Aslo no wastelands and a fairly stabnle manabase with a random forest. The rest of the top eight was fairly random with aluren, landstill, goyf control, fish and rock. Usually thresh has a random deck problem so I guess that is good newss.

[Maveric78f]

This list looks very good, except that I would abandon nimble mongoose and stifles to play other things like 4th bitterblossom, 2/3 jittes, 2/3 Trygon Predator. The MD has no out against dreadnought, which is quite problematic too.

[georgjorge]

Bitterblossom but no CBalance+Top makes sense, I guess, since both are permanent means of achieving card advantage. However, I'm not sure if Bitterblossom provides that better than CBalance+Top ? I could also see cutting Confidant instead of CBalance+Top for the Blossom...

As for the Standstill debate: Yea, I myself think that in theory it looks somewhat misplaced in Thresh. I was just bringing it up because a) the positive results in testing surprised me and b) because I don't think Dreadstill - which is having success - can really make so much better use out of it (they don't run more answers to threats, and as stated before I think that currently Nought is not much harder to remove than Goyf for most decks).

[Rood]

I feel shaky as to whether I would want to run Standstills with only Factories to go for under them. I would almost certainly feel inclined to run Wastelands too for oposing factories/manlands. And if you add Wastes you'd be hurting your mana base even more so it's really tough to include Standstill into a deck like Threshold due to the 3 colors it already runs compared to Dreadstill's 1 color/splash for board. I think the only version of Thresh I could see Standstill going into would be UG Thresh because it'd be easier to support the mana base.

[Adan]

I feel shaky as to whether I would want to run Standstills with only Factories to go for under them. I would almost certainly feel inclined to run Wastelands too for oposing factories/manlands. And if you add Wastes you'd be hurting your mana base even more so it's really tough to include Standstill into a deck like Threshold due to the 3 colors it already runs compared to Dreadstill's 1 color/splash for board. I think the only version of Thresh I could see Standstill going into would be UG Thresh because it'd be easier to support the mana base.

But UG Thresh became obsolete in the last time due to the fact that more and more UGr and UGb lists with the same concept are Top8ing, proving that it makes no sense to play without splash and therefor neglecting CA generators and removal.

And since UG has got the same, rather aggressive concept, Standstill also makes no sense for me.

[Nihil Credo]

Short note on the Bitterblossom list: another player picked it up verbatim and brought it to a Top 8 in another major tournament. However, according to his report, the 'blossoms were terrible and he always sided them out.

[arsenalpow]

i think the core of threshold deck (whether it be c/b thresh or "thrash") can support just about anything else you want to add to it. I'm willing to bet you could shove completely dead cards into the 5/6 variable slots and still crush people.

[lavafrogg]

Do you have a link to that report?
I would be interested in reading it...

[Nihil Credo]

Do you have a link to that report?
I would be interested in reading it...
It's here (http://tipo1.it/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6624), if you can read Italian.

[Adan]

i think the core of threshold deck (whether it be c/b thresh or "thrash") can support just about anything else you want to add to it. I'm willing to bet you could shove completely dead cards into the 5/6 variable slots and still crush people.

I guess this is quite close to be right, linux-ll- list is an example, if you can assemble CB-Top and beat the opponent with Goyf, it doesn't matter how the remaining deck looks like, BUT that should never be an argument to ruin a good maindeck by running useless cards or cards that doesn't fit into the concept.

[raharu]

I guess this is quite close to be right, linux-ll- list is an example, if you can assemble CB-Top and beat the opponent with Goyf, it doesn't matter how the remaining deck looks like, BUT that should never be an argument to ruin a good maindeck by running useless cards or cards that doesn't fit into the concept.
This. Also:


As for the Standstill debate: Yea, I myself think that in theory it looks somewhat misplaced in Thresh. I was just bringing it up because I don't think Dreadstill - which is having success - can really make so much better use out of it (they don't run more answers to threats, and as stated before I think that currently Nought is not much harder to remove than Goyf for most decks).

They run more answers than Threshold, more lands with effects to play under Standstill, can break their own Standstill and not care because they can drop a 2 turn clock on the opponent's head with heavy counter backup and permanent control elements, and are a control deck, i.e. they, almost exactly like Landstill, don't want ANYTHING on the board (outside lands and Counterbalance, perhaps) until they are assured to win.

[lavafrogg]

Accoding to my friends Italian he played three burn/boros decks and only drew/played bitterblossom in four games and won all three of those games. Some cards are not ideal if you play against three burn decks and bitterblossom is one of them, see also bob, thoughtsieze.

Bitterblossom would be more for a fish/threshold inspired metagame in that it stomps face in the aggro control mirror.

P.S. it is also good in the control matchup with an answer being required for the tokens and the blossom itself.

P.S.S. It is also good against non burn aggro decks as I heard free dudes are good...

[linux-ll-]

I guess this is quite close to be right, linux-ll- list is an example, if you can assemble CB-Top and beat the opponent with Goyf, it doesn't matter how the remaining deck looks like, BUT that should never be an argument to ruin a good maindeck by running useless cards or cards that doesn't fit into the concept.

I don´t think that any of my chosen cards are useless.
It´s a pity apparently you don´t understand the deck´s concept...

[Ironstickman]

This list just top 8ed

Date: May 11th, 2008
Location: Pordenone
Players: 56
UGB Threshold w/ Bitterblossom




3 x Bitterblossom



No discard elements but bitterblossom and spell snare main. Aslo no wastelands and a fairly stabnle manabase with a random forest. The rest of the top eight was fairly random with aluren, landstill, goyf control, fish and rock. Usually thresh has a random deck problem so I guess that is good newss.

In your opinion, do you find bitterblossom a more useful in Ugb card than say: Thougthseize. oK it has proven to be a powerful card in many formats but does it really fit into the dynamic of a threshold deck?.
Doesn`t thoughtseize work better against most matchups (except aggro perhaps, where i would say they behave equally)?
Do you really need another threat (considering that you run the 2/1 confidants )?

[Adan]

I don´t think that any of my chosen cards are useless.
It´s a pity apparently you don´t understand the deck´s concept...

I think I am one of the last one's who don't understand the concept of UGW Threshold. Your list relies on Counterbalance even more since you have to protect Jace for example. Jotun Grunt SEEMS to be fine since you don't run Nimble Mongoose anymore, thus you are not dependant on theshols anymore, but your permanentcount is still very high and that's why Jotun Grunt won't last for long, except when you can somehow manage to mill your opponent with Jace, but the question is, why should you mill your opponent when Jotun Grunt makes it all redundant afterwards???

Additionally, the lack of Nimble Mongoose makes the Goblin matchup worse. i could accept the Jotun grunts as a metagame tweak because Dülmen and Iserlohn 8dunno where you exactly play) are infested with Loam and Ichorid, but I would never play without Nimble Mongeese in general as they are nearly invincible and vital in matchups such as Goblins, Zoo Aggro and control as they can hardly be killed.

Please tell me your concept and what advantages it has got compared to Der_imaginäre_Freund's and my list (we actually play identical lists).

[mackaber]

I've done some testing with bitterblossom but have dismissed it again. The main problem in my book is the massive life loss combined with the slow clock, which often leads to bitterblossom killing you. Seeing that it directly competes with thoughtseize due to life loss issues I feel that Thoughtseize is strictly superior altough both spells serve completly different roles. While not a Maindec card bitterblossom might prove to be a powerful sideboard option in control matchups where your life total is not attacked and bitterblossom offers you a steady stream of threats (I'm mainly thinking of stax here and it's probably decent against Landstill as well).

[Skullclamping]

Some cards are not ideal if you play against three burn decks and bitterblossom is one of them, see also bob, thoughtsieze.

Thoughtseize helps against burn, cause you will allways discard something that does more than 2 damage...
And could Bitterblossom help on the mirror too? The worst point of it is that competes with Thoughtseize, as already stated :/

[Illissius]

Thoughtseize helps against burn, cause you will allways discard something that does more than 2 damage...

Thoughtseize Against Burn
:b:
Sorcery
You gain one life.
At some point, your opponent may add :r: to his or her mana pool.

That's a truly amazing card.

The only really worthwhile thing you can take with Thoughtseize is maybe Price of Progress.

[Shugyosha]

The only really worthwhile thing you can take with Thoughtseize is maybe Price of Progress.

Sulfuric Vortex
Fireblast
Pyrostatic Pillar (although mostly SB)
Flamebreak (kills Geese)

But nevertheless it would be one of the first boarding slots for me for game 2&3.

[WiLdFiRe]

So I went 2-1-1 today at our local legacy tournament with this:
// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [UNH] Island
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [R] Scrubland
4 [R] Tropical Island
1 [R] Tundra
3 [R] Underground Sea

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
4 [CST] Brainstorm
3 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [SC] Stifle
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
4 [LRW] Ponder
2 [LRW] Thoughtseize
3 [CS] Counterbalance
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top

I know it splashes white for StP, but I wanted the ability to hit all the black creatures like Confidant that were running around in the meta.
Match 1: Aluren
This was a pretty easy matchup - I had a lot of pressure in the first game, so he had to walk his Aluren into a Daze and Tarmogoyfs took it from there. Game 2 he got flooded and again double goyf did him in.

Matches: 1-0 Games: 2-0

Match 2: Goblins!
He wasn't very familiar with the deck, and wasn't able to capitalize on his first turn lackey because I stifled his first trigger then dropped a 2/3 goyf to stop further shenanigans. He kept up the assault but got stuck on 3 lands and ran out of gas. After this game he showed me two ringleaders stuck in hand, but I showed him the dazes in mine. Game 2 was much closer, He resolved first turn Vial second turn piledriver (dazed) eot lackey but I had the mongoose to trade then swords and goyf forced their way through.

Matches 2-0 Games 4-0

Match 3: Belcher
Game 1, he Empties for 8 dudes turn 1, but I force one copy and drop goyf + mongoose to block. I stabilize on 8 life but he has 2 copies of belcher in hand - I daze the first but he resolves the second one and belches me for his library. Game 2, he plays Empty for a lot of dudes and I explosives it away but draw nothing for ages until I can kill him. Game 3, Time is called just after we present decks. He goes for wish -> empty but I have the stifle, he pyroblasts it and I force back. I beat with tarmogoyf and get him to 10 but I run out of turns and we draw.

Matches 2-0-1 Games 5-1-1

Match 4: Zoo
Game 1 I have the game in hand, but find I only have 59 cards in my library - I also have a 16 card sb :/ One game loss later, we shuffle up for game 2. I keep a hand with Island, Goyf, Goyf, Mongoose, Mongoose, Force, Daze. I draw top and see underground sea and EE, I draw sea then EE but by then he has Teeg on the table and triple Tarmogoyf kills me.

Any thoughts on the decklist/report?

[lavafrogg]

In your opinion, do you find bitterblossom a more useful in Ugb card than say: Thougthseize. oK it has proven to be a powerful card in many formats but does it really fit into the dynamic of a threshold deck?.
Doesn`t thoughtseize work better against most matchups (except aggro perhaps, where i would say they behave equally)?
Do you really need another threat (considering that you run the 2/1 confidants )?

In my opinion I find that bitterblossom helps in many of the decks problem matches including...Control Matchups(infi dudes) aggro matchups(infi blockers) and in paticular it helps in 50-50 matchups like the mirror and all of the fish/countertop/trinket things that run around the metaworld. In this Tarmogoyf vs Tarmogoyf world a 1/1 makes all of the difference.
Most decks run the same core group of creatures, removal and disruption a steady stream of 1/1s trum;p the aggro control decks of today.

When played and resolved early you just win the game. Bitterblossom does the work while you make sure you dont lose and it doesnt die to a single removal spell like a goyf on turn two does.

Also this just placed fourth at a tournament:

Date: May 18th, 2008
Location: Bondeno (FE), Italy
Players: 37

4) Alessandro Chiarato - U/G/B Threshold

4 USea
3 Tropical
1 Bayou
7 fetches
2 Island
1 Swamp

4 Bob
4 Goyf
4 Geese
3 Bitterblossom

3 Daze
4 FoW

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

3 Stifle
3 Ghastly Demise
2 Smother
3 Thoughtseize
3 Spell Snare

SB:
5 BEB/hydroblast
2 Krosan Grip
2 Trygon Predator
3 Extirpate
2 Crypt
1 Echoing Truth

[mackaber]

When played and resolved early you just win the game. Bitterblossom does the work while you make sure you dont lose and it doesnt die to a single removal spell like a goyf on turn two does.


In theory Bitterblossom can even save the world from global warming!
Sure there's quite a few potential upsides but you also have to remeber that while goyf is a great rip anytime in the game bitterblossom does not affect the board when it enters play, nor is it very good when your life total has reached the single digits. In a situation where you have bitterblossom versus goyf it just acts as a pay one life during your upkeep pacifism. Multiple Bitterblossoms are also a rather dangerous endeavor. Also Bitterblossom alone takes like 6+ turns to deal 20 imho that's way too slow for this format.

Oh yeah and since bob and thoughseize are the real reasons why you'd want to play black it just makes bitterblossom excessive.

[Mental]

In my opinion I find that bitterblossom helps in many of the decks problem matches including...Control Matchups(infi dudes) aggro matchups(infi blockers) and in paticular it helps in 50-50 matchups like the mirror and all of the fish/countertop/trinket things that run around the metaworld. In this Tarmogoyf vs Tarmogoyf world a 1/1 makes all of the difference.
Most decks run the same core group of creatures, removal and disruption a steady stream of 1/1s trum;p the aggro control decks of today.

When played and resolved early you just win the game. Bitterblossom does the work while you make sure you dont lose and it doesnt die to a single removal spell like a goyf on turn two does.

Also this just placed fourth at a tournament:

Date: May 18th, 2008
Location: Bondeno (FE), Italy
Players: 37

4) Alessandro Chiarato - U/G/B Threshold

4 USea
3 Tropical
1 Bayou
7 fetches
2 Island
1 Swamp

4 Bob
4 Goyf
4 Geese
3 Bitterblossom

3 Daze
4 FoW

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

3 Stifle
3 Ghastly Demise
2 Smother
3 Thoughtseize
3 Spell Snare

SB:
5 BEB/hydroblast
2 Krosan Grip
2 Trygon Predator
3 Extirpate
2 Crypt
1 Echoing Truth

There are so many things wrong with this list it's kinda funny...though it did T8. One, he plays Stifle but no Wasteland. That's like...playing Counterbalance and no Top. Then he also plays 3 Thoughtseize? What the hell is that? Thoughtseize is one of the best cards in this deck. Oh, and 3 Ponder? Yeah...

On the other hand, Bitterblossom is pretty cool.

[Jaiminho]

One, he plays Stifle but no Wasteland. That's like...playing Counterbalance and no Top.

What the hell? Stifle is a very strong card against so many decks and it's simply ok against some others. Not like I need to make a list of cards Stifle likes to hit. I play 3 of them along with zero Wastelands.

[mackaber]

I play 3 Thoughtseizes cause 4 is too many imho. Never forget the old saying cause it's one of the most important in magics history: "Life is a resource"

[Mental]

What the hell? Stifle is a very strong card against so many decks and it's simply ok against some others. Not like I need to make a list of cards Stifle likes to hit. I play 3 of them along with zero Wastelands.

Sure, it's decent, but it's still not optimal.

[b4r0n]

Sure, it's decent, but it's still not optimal.

If you're only using it on fetchlands, sure. But I think Jaiminho was implying that the card is a lot more versatile than that; it's more than merely a form of land destruction. So Stifle doesn't need to be used in conjunction with Wasteland in order to be a useful card. Also, adding Wastelands takes the deck in a more tempo-oriented direction, which isn't necessarily "optimal."

Basically, it's all relative.

[Mental]

If you're only using it on fetchlands, sure. But I think Jaiminho was implying that the card is a lot more versatile than that; it's more than merely a form of land destruction. So Stifle doesn't need to be used in conjunction with Wasteland in order to be a useful card. Also, adding Wastelands takes the deck in a more tempo-oriented direction, which isn't necessarily "optimal."

Basically, it's all relative.

If you're not using it on fetches, you shouldn't be playing it when you can be playing Counterbalance, unless you somehow have open room after that.

[b4r0n]

If you're not using it on fetches, you shouldn't be playing it when you can be playing Counterbalance, unless you somehow have open room after that.

Looking at the tournament in which that deck appeared, half of the decks in the top 8 were running Wastelands. That seems like a pretty good reason to run Stifle. Also, considering how the winning deck was Goblins, maindeck Stifle seems like it would have been a better call than Counterbalance.

Basically, one can't say that something is or isn't optimal without considering the context.

[Nihil Credo]

Looking at the tournament in which that deck appeared, half of the decks in the top 8 were running Wastelands. That seems like a pretty good reason to run Stifle. Also, considering how the winning deck was Goblins, maindeck Stifle seems like it would have been a better call than Counterbalance.
As much as I'd like to claim that Mirage (aka Alessandro Chiarato) is a supremely skilled metagamer, the truth of the matter is that he was simply bored with his current deck and picked up for this month's tournament the first random cool-looking decklist he found on Germagic/DeckCheck (and, as I mentioned above, after the tournament proclaimed that Bitterblossom is unplayable crap in Legacy).

[b4r0n]

As much as I'd like to claim that Mirage (aka Alessandro Chiarato) is a supremely skilled metagamer, the truth of the matter is that he was simply bored with his current deck and picked up for this month's tournament the first random cool-looking decklist he found on Germagic/DeckCheck (and, as I mentioned above, after the tournament proclaimed that Bitterblossom is unplayable crap in Legacy).

Heh. Fair enough.

I still feel like there must be some deck in Legacy that's capable of abusing Bitterblossom though. It's been pretty dominant in Standard, and dominant Standard cards often trickle down into Legacy. But I suppose that would be a matter for another thread.

[Adan]

If you're not using it on fetches, you shouldn't be playing it when you can be playing Counterbalance, unless you somehow have open room after that.

No, that's tunnel-vision.

Stifle is a extremely verstile card that could theoretically be played as a 2-3of in threshold variants, even in builds with Counterbalance, BUT the main reason why i never did so is simple:

White often plays Pithing Needle which handles Wasteland problems sometimes even better than Stifle, especially when the opponent is abusing Loam a lot.

And Black has got Thoughtseize, the even more versatile card.

And Red has got... Uh... Blood Moon. Or the Swan-Combo.

[raharu]

Adan, what would you sugest running in wb threshold, Pithing Needle or Stifle?

[Adan]

Adan, what would you sugest running in wb threshold, Pithing Needle or Stifle?

UGwb? None of them. You have access to Thoughtseize and at the same time, you have still the world's greatest sportremoval aka Swords to Plowshares.

The maindeck should look like the Hatfield's 5color Thresh anyways, only the manabase is different. The 5color manabase of the Hatfields is a littlebit suicidal, but it it STABLE. I can't argue with that.

Only that singleton Fact or Fiction is kinda strange, but I played with it and it's quite funny. It's a cool silverbullet, but not necessary.

[Mental]

What do you guys think of UGb Thrash? I've been thinking about converting my UGr Thrash list into it, but I want your guys opinions. One of my friends, whom I collect with, is pushing me really hard to play Dark Confidant, but I'm not sure it's necessary in Thrash. What are your thoughts?

Btw, here's the list:

6 Fetch
4 Trop
4 USea
4 Waste

4 Goyf
4 Goose
2 Bear

4 BStorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 FoW
4 Spell Snare/Dark Confidant
4 Thoughtseize
4 Stifle
4 Demise

If the Spell Snares become Confidants, the Werebears would become Extirpates, I think. Also, I know I'm going to catch some flak for Bear. It's a meta choice.

[Adan]

What do you guys think of UGb Thrash?

It's cool, but I posted Oddball's list about 3 times, which - in my opinion - is better than the one you posted. No Dark Confidants, WHAT?

Thoughtseize is not played because it somehow doesn't fit to the manadenial concept. If you screw your opponent, he won't be able to cast the dangerous spells anyways. And yeah, the weakness of Thoughtseize is that it's sometimes a dead topdeck:

// Lands
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [A] Tropical Island
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [B] Underground Sea
1 [B] Island (3)
3 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [LRW] Ponder
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [PLC] Extirpate
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [SC] Stifle
1 [OD] Ghastly Demise
3 [ON] Smother

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [FUT] Yixlid Jailer
SB: 4 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
SB: 1 [B] Swamp (1)

if you really want to play Thoughtseize, I would try to - 2 Extirpate and -2 EE and +4 Thoughtseize, but the cards then have to be moved to the SB.

Only 3/3/3 Stifle-Waste-Snare because that's Oddball's style, he doesn't want to be affixed on one straight gameplan that could fail. In this way, the deck still retains it's flexibility.

[arsenalpow]

I still feel like there must be some deck in Legacy that's capable of abusing Bitterblossom though. It's been pretty dominant in Standard, and dominant Standard cards often trickle down into Legacy. But I suppose that would be a matter for another thread.

Bitterblossom + Contamination = :laugh:

[toor]

I havent played the deck a ton, but thoughtseizes were insane when I played them. I top 16ed the 100 man side event at the pro tour with this:
I was 5-0-1 (the draw being a sure win if i had one more turn) going into the final two rounds and choked.

18 Lands
4 Bob
4 Tarmogoyfs
4 Nimble Mongoose

2 Smother
2 EE
2 Stifle
3 Counterbalance
3 Top
2 Mental Note
2 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
2 Spell snare

SB:
4 Leylines
2 Yixlid
3 Plagues
3 Krosan Grip
2 Threads of DIsloyalty
1 Smother.

I ended up playing
3 Belcher
2 Angel Stax
1 Burn
1 Funkbrew
1 Bomberman

Card Availability was an issue when building this.

[goobafish]

What do you guys think of UGb Thrash? I've been thinking about converting my UGr Thrash list into it, but I want your guys opinions. One of my friends, whom I collect with, is pushing me really hard to play Dark Confidant, but I'm not sure it's necessary in Thrash. What are your thoughts?

Btw, here's the list:

6 Fetch
4 Trop
4 USea
4 Waste

4 Goyf
4 Goose
2 Bear

4 BStorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 FoW
4 Spell Snare/Dark Confidant
4 Thoughtseize
4 Stifle
4 Demise

If the Spell Snares become Confidants, the Werebears would become Extirpates, I think. Also, I know I'm going to catch some flak for Bear. It's a meta choice.

I have had a list made for months, I just never saw a reason to play it over Red.

6 Fetch
4 Trop
4 USea
4 Waste

4 Goyf
4 Goose
4 Dark Confidant

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Ghastly Demise
1 Rushing River
1 Wipe Away

Can't quite remember the board. I know it had Thoughtsiezes/Duresses in it.

[Mental]

I have had a list made for months, I just never saw a reason to play it over Red.

6 Fetch
4 Trop
4 USea
4 Waste

4 Goyf
4 Goose
4 Dark Confidant

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Ghastly Demise
1 Rushing River
1 Wipe Away

Can't quite remember the board. I know it had Thoughtsiezes/Duresses in it.

Hmmm. I have to agree that, judging by your list, Red is a lot stronger. I'm still not sure why Thoughtseize isn't played though. Thrash's gameplan isn't straight manadenial - it's any form of really fast disruption coupled with fairly fast beats. Dark Confidant is not disrutpion/or a really fast beat, and it's a shitty cantrip unless it sticks for a while, so I can't say I love it, though I do see that it helps in the late game.

I still can't help envisioning plays like this, with Thoughtseize:
Turn 1: Trop, go. Stifle fetch.
Turn 2: USea, Ponder, Thoughtseize.
Or something like that.

[arsenalpow]

I still can't help envisioning plays like this, with Thoughtseize:
Turn 1: Trop, go. Stifle fetch.
Turn 2: USea, Ponder, Thoughtseize.
Or something like that.

It's would almost be like a B/W deadguy strategy, but in reverse order. Deadguy typically would open something like:
Turn 1: Land, Duress/Ritual, Duress, Hymn
Turn 2: Land, Sinkhole

[goobafish]

Hmmm. I have to agree that, judging by your list, Red is a lot stronger. I'm still not sure why Thoughtseize isn't played though.

Thoughtseize isn't played in the maindeck for the simple reason that it isn't an instant. I didn't do even close to enough testing to know if that is the correct call, but my gut tells me it is. I sleeved up the deck, and trashed it the day after because I found Confidant to be underwhelming and the lack of burn to be terribly annoying.

[raharu]

Adan, what's the UGwb Threshold (or aYb Agro-control, w/e) list that you guys use right now?

[Mental]

Adan, what's the UGwb Threshold (or aYb Agro-control, w/e) list that you guys use right now?

Not that I'm Adan, but I think the standard UGbw Thresh list is:

8 Fetch
4 Trop
3 USea
3 Tundra

4 Goyf
4 Goose
2 Enforcer

4 BStorm
4 Ponder
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Thoughtseize
4 StP
4 Counterbalance
3 SDT
1 Open Slot

Not sure what goes in there...I know that the Hatfields were playing Fact or Fiction in one list, and Portent in another. But you could probably play Pithing Needle or EE if you wanted.

[Adan]

I agree with Mental.
I never played 4color Thresh yet, but the Hatfield's list is tickling me, though it looks suicidal like hell.
But I still think City of Brass is a cool tech because it fixed the manabase's fagileness, which was always the most annoying thing to me when I played a variant with mote than 3 colors. But running City of brass makes Daze worse, but that's pretty irrelevant if you have at least 1 Island-land.

I would say that the 5color Hatfield-Thresh (whose maindeck is actually only 4colored) matches my taste since it is quite similar to UGW Threshold, with the difference that it has got access to every useful sideboard option and maindeck Thoughtseize (I love it).

That random Fact of Fiction was, according to Alix, shoehorned in as something against Landstill. it also makes sence to me now since it's a CC4 spell (CBalance -> WoG, Humility, Moat) and generates CA. I somehow like him as a silverbullet since 5color Thresh consists of bombs anyways and the FoF-piles were always insane when I casted him.

But I guess I will try Hatfield Thresh tomorrow. It's main advantage would be that you may play anything you want in the sideboard (Extirpates, Ichorids, Armageddons, Engineered Explosives). And it's flexibiliy of course. It runs only versatile cards and that's what i like about it.

[raharu]

I never played 4color Thresh

Derp. My bad, I was refering to the list that either Oddball or Windux had posted, but considering that I didn't have any idea which person it was, I directed the question to a person on aYb that I knew. >.<

Thanka for the list, Mental.

[KrzyMoose]

I've been testing Bitterblossom in UGBW Threshold for the past couple of weeks, and I've come to some conclusions:

-It is a complete monster against opposing Threshold decks.

-It is a complete monster against Aggro decks when you lay it down on turn two, especially when you have a Mongoose or Tarmogoyf on the table

-It is the absolute nut low against Aggro decks when you lay it down mid-late game

-It is servicable in the Control matchup

-It can be useful in the Combo matchup

It may be a decent Sideboard card, especially for the mirror match, but, other than that, is not terribly strong.

[Adan]

Derp. My bad, I was refering to the list that either Oddball or Windux had posted, but considering that I didn't have any idea which person it was, I directed the question to a person on aYb that I knew. >.<

Thanka for the list, Mental.

Well, Windux was the one who played that UGBw Hybridshit. Oddball, his team-colleague, simply cutted white for more consistency and a more stable manabase. The result was the UGB Thrash list I posted several times. But I won't play that build again. At least on MWS (I was flipping 3 Force of Will in a row in 3 games. That's 9 times Force-reveal! No kidding.).

[raharu]

Oh laurd... Was that just terrible luck, or did it have something to do with the deck's construction?

[Mental]

Oh laurd... Was that just terrible luck, or did it have something to do with the deck's construction?

How could it have to do with the deck construction? He's playing 4 FoW, 4 Bob, like all UGB Thresh decks are these days. It was luck.

[b4r0n]

Not that I'm Adan, but I think the standard UGbw Thresh list is:

8 Fetch
4 Trop
3 USea
3 Tundra

4 Goyf
4 Goose
2 Enforcer

4 BStorm
4 Ponder
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Thoughtseize
4 StP
4 Counterbalance
3 SDT
1 Open Slot

Not sure what goes in there...I know that the Hatfields were playing Fact or Fiction in one list, and Portent in another. But you could probably play Pithing Needle or EE if you wanted.

This is almost exactly what I'm running, except -1 Trop +1 Island, and with an EE in that open slot. I highly recommend it to you all. I started playing this build because I really didn't like the City of Brasses in the Hatfield's build... even though it stabilizes the manabase, I just didn't feel comfortable with the life loss. While this list has a slightly less stable manabase than the 5 color builds, I've still found it to be sufficient.

This list follows the same principles that 5 color Thresh was built on, mainly the aim of winning the mirror. You have full sets of Thoughtseize and Daze to force through Counterbalance, you have the best removal available to the deck, and you run a pair of the best finishers available to the deck. It's everything that you could want in Thresh... well, except for Pyroclasm. And that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make.

[Adan]

Just came back from the tourney in Mannheim. I went 3-2 with the Hatfield's 5color Thresh (I copied the list as it was).

I lost 2-0 against ichorid and Lands.dec, and against the other 3 matches (Elves, Angel Stompy and Dreadstill) I won 2-0 flawless.

The deck is good, but you should always tune the SB for the meta, I guess I would cut Ancient Grudges and that singleton FoF for at least 3 Extirpates.

The Pyroblasts are surprisingly good...

[raharu]

Perhaps a lack of Sensei's Divining Top would have something to do with it. I personally don't remember the list and can't find it, but I remember it being a tempo list with a late game that (if I remember correctly) Stifles and some number of Chrome Moxen.

EDIT: Adan, would you think that Extirpate's absence was the make or break factor in the two matches you lost? To clarify, would you say that Extirpate would have made the matches fairer, i.e. closer to 50/50 or stronger (as in 55/45 or 60/40) in your favor?

[Adan]

Perhaps a lack of Sensei's Divining Top would have something to do with it. I personally don't remember the list and can't find it, but I remember it being a tempo list with a late game that (if I remember correctly) Stifles and some number of Chrome Moxen.

Nope, it was the one with Stifle-Spell Snare-Wasteland-Extirpate.

The lack of sensei's Divining Top is irrelevant, the average manacurve of that maindeck is... 1,26? Dunno anymore. But it's low enough to support multiple Confidants.

Flipping 1 Force of Will is also not too bad, your opponent usually "haha lol rofl"'s, but having Confidant out and a Force of Will to defend yourself against anything is quite... strong.

Anyways, maybe I will play it again some time, but I still have no reason to play it over my build with Counterbalance. Oddball somehow dislikes the controlish concept and therefor built the black tempo variant, though he was sceptic after I told him how smooth and aggressive goobafish's deck was.


EDIT: Adan, would you think that Extirpate's absence was the make or break factor in the two matches you lost? To clarify, would you say that Extirpate would have made the matches fairer, i.e. closer to 50/50 or stronger (as in 55/45 or 60/40) in your favor?

I have no idea, I actually hate those matchup-percentages because they are a statistic made by a person whose opponent's playskill is unknown.
And there are still random draws who can always annihilate you, even though your matchup percantage SHOULD BE at 200% or whatsoever.

Like my match against Eva Green on MWS (I played UWb Cunning Landstill).
I was fetching the basiclands together, had some Mishra's and countered some annoying cards like Hymn to Tourach. And then, soem turns later, he goes "Wasteland". The turn after, he did "Wasteland, Ritual, Sinkhole, Sinkhole". Next Turn "topdeck Sinkhole". and then he screwed me. What do you do against something like that?

Anyways, I went off the topic a littlebit, but it was only that helpless feeling of having NOTHING against them in the sideboard.
I guess it would have made the matchups slightly better, but they still remain to be very difficult.

[Mental]

I'm also going to mess around with 5-Color Thresh I think, only it'll be 4-color. The MD is the same as I posted a page back, with the open slot being an Engineered Explosives. The sideboard is:

4 Extirpate
4 Meddling Mage
3 Krosan Grip
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Hydroblast

I'm really curious about how to sideboard with this deck. I'll post what I know, and hopefully you guys will help me fill in the trouble spots:

Goblins:
-4 Counterbalance
+2 Engineered Explosives
+2 Hydroblast

There's no explanation needed for 'blast, and EE is good against both Chalice and Explosives, so I like it over Grip.

Thrash:
I presume that I don't even need to board.

Theshold:
-1 Engineered Explosives
-2 ??
+3 Krosan Grip.

KGrip is obviously anti-counterbalance.

Landstill:
-1 Engineered Explosives
-2 Swords to Plowshares
+3 Krosan Grip

I want the grips for Humility/Deed/Factory/Crucible.

Dragon Stompy:
-4 Counterbalance
-1 Engineered Explosives
+2 Hydroblast
+3 Krosan Grip

Hydroblast and Grip don't even need explanations.

Ichorid:
-4 Counterbalance
-2 Thoughtseize
+4 Extirpate
+2 Engineered Explosives

I'm not sure if siding out the Thoughtseize is correct. Pate is for bridge, and EE is for bridge tokens. Yeah, I lose this MU.

Lands!:
-4 Counterbalance
-4 Swords to Plowshares
+4 Meddling Mage
+4 Extirpate

Mage can name loam while Extirpate, or Extirpate can take out Loam. Both are good here. However, Counterbalance and Swords are also decent in this MU, so I'm not sure that they're what I should cut. Against Aggro Loam, this is even more annoying. I guess I keep the Mages in the board, and I keep the StPs in.

GWB Homebrew Aggro:
This list plays like Deadguy Ale but with no Land Destruction, and more beats.
I don't think any siding is necessary. I know they bring in 2 Pernicious Deed, but I still stomp them.

GW Homebrew Aggro:
See above, but no discard either. They maindeck Disenchant.
I'm not sure siding is necessary here either.

TES/FT:
-4 Swords to Plowshares
-4 ??
+4 Meddling Mage
+4 Extirpate


Anyways, if someone would help me fill in the ??s, and confirm my other stuff, that'd be a big help. Thanks a lot.

BTW, Adan, in a meta with a fair amount of mana disruption (read: a lot of Thrash) is 5 color or 4 color more stable?

[raharu]

For the FT/ TES boarding, don't forget that you still want swords for Susher. Perhaps pull Mystic Enforcer and the random EE tomore make space, but outside that I really don't have any idea what else could be pulled from the MD to make room. Threshold doesn't really hae many dead cards against combo...

[Mental]

For the FT/ TES boarding, don't forget that you still want swords for Susher. Perhaps pull Mystic Enforcer and the random EE tomore make space, but outside that I really don't have any idea what else could be pulled from the MD to make room. Threshold doesn't really hae many dead cards against combo...

I'm fairly confidant that Thoughtseize can deal with Shusher, but you do have a point. I may not even side at all, it probably isn't necessary.

[KrzyMoose]

TES/FT:
-4 Swords to Plowshares
-4 ??
+4 Meddling Mage
+4 Extirpate

I'd take out Nimble Mongoose.

I think you should focus more on the Aggro matchup, and a little less on the Combo/Control matchup.

You can afford to cut an Extirpate and a Mage, and maybe up the Hydroblast count.

Also, in a metagame with a lot of mana disruption, make sure you run two basic Island, and Fetch wisely.

This is my manabase, for reference:
4 Tropical Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
2 Island

It's really stable - you only need one of each Dual to be fine.

[Mental]

I'd take out Nimble Mongoose.

I think you should focus more on the Aggro matchup, and a little less on the Combo/Control matchup.

You can afford to cut an Extirpate and a Mage, and maybe up the Hydroblast count.

I don't know. My hardest MU is recursion, and I like having 4 Pate and 4 Mage to shore that up. However, you may be right that it's overkill - I rarely have 8 cards that I can board out in any one MU. Maybe I should play City of Brass, along with Pyroclasm? Or is upping the Hydroblast count a better idea?

About Goose - I'd rather take out 2 Enforcer, 2 Goose. Goose seems good here, just not great.

I'm not confidant that 6 fetches can work in Threshold. I'd cut a Sea and play 7, just to be safe.

[raharu]

Well, it's always nice to have a back-up plan so you don't loose to uncounterable Orim's Chant. Also, Mages are overkill, but Extirpates should be in your side anyway, so it's not going to hurt to board them in.

[KrzyMoose]

About Goose - I'd rather take out 2 Enforcer, 2 Goose. Goose seems good here, just not great.

Oh, I assumed you were running 4 Confidant.

Yeh, you take out Enforcer, and 2 Mongoose.


I don't know. My hardest MU is recursion, and I like having 4 Pate and 4 Mage to shore that up. However, you may be right that it's overkill - I rarely have 8 cards that I can board out in any one MU. Maybe I should play City of Brass, along with Pyroclasm? Or is upping the Hydroblast count a better idea?

I'd play a single Volcanic Island before I play City of Brass. Hydroblast is better in the Dragon Stompy and Burn matchups, but Pyroclasm might be better, in general. You could just cut a single Mage, and run 3 Hydroblast. I actually like having at least five options against various Aggro decks, usually in the form of some number of Hydroblasts and E. Plagues or Engineered Explosives.

Here's my SB currently:
3 Hydroblast
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Serenity (I never leave home without at least one)
2 Krosan Grip
3 Extirpate
3 Engineered Plague

The numbers change, but that's roughly what I like to have around.

What does your manabase look like?



I'm not confidant that 6 fetches can work in Threshold. I'd cut a Sea and play 7, just to be safe.

Yeh, I've played around with a ton of different variations, and, while you may be right, I'm really comfortable with playing just six.

It is true, though, that more Fetchlands are better with Counterbalances and Tops (and, of course, Brainstorms).

/shrug. It's a personal preference.

[Mental]

Oh, I assumed you were running 4 Confidant.

Yeh, you take out Enforcer, and 2 Mongoose.



I'd play a single Volcanic Island before I play City of Brass. Hydroblast is better in the Dragon Stompy and Burn matchups, but Pyroclasm might be better, in general.

What does your manabase look like?



Yeh, I've played around with a ton of different variations, and, while you may be right, I'm really comfortable with playing just six.

It is true, though, that more Fetchlands are better with Counterbalances and Tops (and, of course, Brainstorms).

/shrug. It's a personal preference.

I'm currently playing:

7 Fetch
4 Trop
3 Sea
3 Tundra
1 Island

4 Goyf
4 Goose
2 Enforcer

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Thoughtseize
4 FoW
4 StP
4 Counterbalance
3 SDT
1 EE

However, I'm contemplating playing:

4 City of Brass
7 Fetch
2 Trop
2 Tundra
1/2 Sea
1 Volc
0/1 Island

With the same maindeck, but a more flexible board.

[Adan]

BTW, Adan, in a meta with a fair amount of mana disruption (read: a lot of Thrash) is 5 color or 4 color more stable?

The 5color base. being 4colored with 9 duals (don't know your configuration) makes you a lot more vulnerable to Wastelands.
But in general, he should always be trying to keep you off from green mana.

City of brass fixes the colorscrew problem quite well, but you should watch out for UGr Thrash's reach (i.e. burn).

[b4r0n]

I'm really curious about how to sideboard with this deck. I'll post what I know, and hopefully you guys will help me fill in the trouble spots.

My current board is:

1 EE (1 MD)
2 Pithing Needle
3 Extirpate
3 Hydroblast
3 Grip
3 Engineered Plague (these could be Mages, I suppose)

Goblins:
+3 Hydroblast, +2 Needle, +3 Plague, -4 CB, -1 EE, -1 Thoughtseize, -1 Enforcer, plus -1 Daze (on the draw) or -1 StP (on the play).

Plagues may not even be necessary. But I don't like losing to Goblins.

Landstill:
+2 Needle, +2 Grip, +3 Extirpate, -4 Daze, -2 Swords, -1 EE/CB

You may need to sideboard differently depending on the build of Landstill you're facing. I board out Dazes in this matchup since they're pretty worthless as the game progresses.

Dragon Stompy:
+3 Hydroblast, +3 Krosan Grip, +1 EE, -4 CB, -2 Mystic Enforcer, -1 Thoughtseize

You lose this matchup. I mean, you can board if you want, but you're probably going to lose pretty savagely regardless.

Ichorid:
+3 Extirpate, +1 EE, +3 Plague, -4 CB, -2 Enforcer, -1 Thoughtseize

You probably lose this matchup too, but you have a better shot than any other version of Thresh.

TES:
+3 Hydroblast, +1 EE, -2 Enforcer, -1 Island, plus -1 Daze (on the draw) or -1 StP (on the play)

Plague or Mage or Extirpate could probably come in too, now that I think about it. I haven't really needed them in this matchup, but you'd probably board out more Swords, maybe a Daze or a Mongoose.

FT:
+2 Needle, +3 Extirpate, -4 StP, -1 EE

However, this depends on the build of FT. If they're not running Top, you don't need Needles. If they're running EtW, you want EEs instead.

Thrash:
No board

Get CB/Top and you should win. Thoughtseize is pretty awesome, and Enforcer is a beating. Extirpates might be good here, if you wanted them, but I don't think they're necessary.

Mirror:
+3 Krosan Grip, -1 EE, -1 Thoughtseize, -1 Mongoose

Again, if you stay in control with CB/Top, you should win.

If anyone has different board plans for any of these matchups, I'd be interested in hearing them.

EDIT: BTW, I've also been playing around with -1 Enforcer, -1 EE, -1 CB for +3 Confidant. It's been pretty good so far. Not sure whether I like it more or less though.

[Mental]

Those boarding plans look pretty good, baron. Can you support the lifeloss of 3 Confidant on top of Thoughtseize and Fetches? Maybe, but I doubt it will work in the City of Brass builds.

My meta configuration is usually:
1-3 Goblins
1 Thrash
2 GW(b?) aggro
1 Dragon Stompy
1 Ichorid
1 UBG Thresh
1 UGW Thresh
1 Belcher
0-2 Burn
1 43lands
1 Landstill
1 TES

Pretty diverse, but it's fairly aggro oriented - the build of thrash is also very much aggro, playing Mental Note and 2 Werebears.

[thefreakaccident]

Does anyone have a standard 5c list that they play?

This is the list I have been playing, and although it is full of pain, I have been able to stop the bleeding with enough time to seal the deal most of the time:

*emphasis on pain*

lands//18
4 flooded strand
3 polluted delta
4 city of brass
2 underground sea
2 tundra
2 tropical island
1 volcanic island

creatures//12
4 tarmogoyf
4 nimble mongoose
3 dark confidant
1 mystic enforcer

spells//30
4 thoughtseize
4 force of will
4 daze
4 swords to plowshares
3 counterbalance
3 sensei's divining top
4 brainstorm
4 ponder


sideboard//
4 pyroclasm
4 extirpate
2 krosan grip
3 serenity (stop challice/trini, and you have hope against stax).
2 pithing needle


I have a lot of games where the disruption is overwhelming for the opponent, but the paain is almost too much... the deck also has a tougher time getting threshold with the abnormally high permanent count... the changes I was considering were:

-3 dark confidant
-1 underground sea
+1 polluted delta
+2 predict
+1 mystic enforcer

I am not too sure yet though, as the current list has been treating me quite well (it even baffles me too... it looks like way too much pain).

[Adan]

Does anyone have a standard 5c list that they play?

Hatfield's build. Sometimes I'm tesing a different manabase, but Cities are solid, though I dislike their anti-synergy with Daze.

But ey, don't run Dark Confidants in THAT build, you have 4 Forces, 1 Enforcer, 4 thoughtseize and 4 Cities, that's too much pain. When I played against Dreadstill, I won 2-0. My opponent didn't do a single damage to me, but both games ended on 8 and 5 life, which means that I have dealt 12 and 15 damage to myself. O.o

And that without Dark Confidant. Don't play him, that's too risky.

The pure UGb Thresh is more suitable for Dark Confiant.

[thefreakaccident]

I wasn't a big fan of the singletons of FoF and portent... is there a more recent list than that?

I would cut them both for predicts.

[Omega]

EE are good maindeck, you could try that

Robert

[Adan]

I wasn't a big fan of the singletons of FoF and portent... is there a more recent list than that?

I would cut them both for predicts.

Portent is OK since it's something like a proxy for a fifth Ponder.

That FoF is indeed kinda random. You can play anything in that slot, I would say a 4th Daze though it has got less synergy with the Cities.

[Obfuscate Freely]

The maindeck Fact or Fiction we played at the NoVa Draft took the place of a second Portent. After that tournament, we went back to running a Portent in that slot, and I would recommend that anyone else playing the deck do the same.

The one-mana cantrips are a very important part of maintaining the five-color manabase, especially against disruption.

[Mental]

I like Daze in one of the slots, just because I generally don't have a problem with not having access to Daze early on and the card is just so powerful I can't see playing 3. I'll definitely try out Portent in the 2nd open slot, but the versatility of EE makes it hard not to play.

Oh, btw, I'm playing the mirror and open this hand:
Fetch, Trop, Thoughtseize, Daze, Counterbalance, Goyf, Brainstorm

I open with Fetch --> Sea, Thoughtseize.

I see Trop, Sea, Thoughtseize, Daze, Counterbalance, Goyf, SDT

I take the Thoughtseize, so that next turn I can hope he taps out for SDT. If he does, I can drop Counterbalance and Daze his Daze.

Was that the right play? Or would have you just taken the Counterbalance or Goyf and be safe? Or even the SDT?

[kiwi]

Im thinking about this version:

// Lands
1 [R] Bayou
2 [ON] Wooded Foothills
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [A] Underground Sea
2 [R] Volcanic Island
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [B] Tropical Island

// Creatures
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant

// Spells
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [PS] Terminate
3 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [DIS] Trygon Predator
SB: 2 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [R] Control Magic
SB: 4 [FUT] Yixlid Jailer
SB: 3 [8E] Pyroclasm

This deck have a mini Splasn of red for including Terminate and some side boards cards, control magic is vs aggro loam decks.

[tappedoutcontroldeck]

I am new to legacy and I was just wondering what ancient grudge is used for? vials, chalices???? Also, what's the best sideboard against survival decks. The builds in my area usually run an aggressive build with goyfs, geese, magus of the moon, heavy removal. Maybe I am playing the deck wrong, but it is a bad match up for threshold (any style). Any help would be great. thanks!!

[lavafrogg]

Mental- your hand is sick by the way.

I would take the counterbalance. This way he cannot draw into extra counters or houghtsiezes and resolve the counterbalance. Your plan is to let the top resolve and if he can force through a balance you lose right there. This way he has three ways to resolve a balacne in the next two turns.
After that I would daze his turn one play, be it top or thoughtsieze and either get the top or thoughtsieze or daze. If his thoughtsieze resolves he takes a brainstorm or conterbalance(both sick) and if his top resolves you resolve a counterbalance next turn(and win).

Since you went first you are the control deck and need to establish superiority as soon as possible.

You also have the sick and underrated combo of brainstorm and a fetchland if things go bad the next turn.

[Mental]

Mental- your hand is sick by the way.

I would take the counterbalance. This way he cannot draw into extra counters or houghtsiezes and resolve the counterbalance. Your plan is to let the top resolve and if he can force through a balance you lose right there. This way he has three ways to resolve a balacne in the next two turns.
After that I would daze his turn one play, be it top or thoughtsieze and either get the top or thoughtsieze or daze. If his thoughtsieze resolves he takes a brainstorm or conterbalance(both sick) and if his top resolves you resolve a counterbalance next turn(and win).

Since you went first you are the control deck and need to establish superiority as soon as possible.

You also have the sick and underrated combo of brainstorm and a fetchland if things go bad the next turn.

His hand was also sick.

I don't know, I think you're underestimating the power of turn 2 Balance. He's going to get 1 draw to find a Force/Thoughtseize, since that's the only relevant disruption at this point, and I'm Ok risking that if it's a question of risk. Since I went first, I need to establish control? Why? I'd rather just lock him with balance ASAP and beat with Goyf.
Anyways, thanks for the advice. I'll consider those things next time I see a hand like that.

[Omega]

I think what you did was the correct play. You certainly dont want to let your opponent gain some information about yoour hand.

But his hand is sick. If he draws one extra counter (force/daze or even thoughtseize), things can go pretty bad for you

Robert

[Mental]

I think what you did was the correct play. You certainly dont want to let your opponent gain some information about yoour hand.

But his hand is sick. If he draws one extra counter (force/daze or even thoughtseize), things can go pretty bad for you

Robert

Daze is irrelevant. Because he only has one land in play when I drop Balance, and I'm going to Daze his Daze. He doesn't have the lands to Daze again, so it doesn't matter. I'm probably going to blind CB most of what he does anyways.

[Omega]

oops that's right :)

But i am pretty sure he will lead with a first turn SDT. His hand doesnt have any draw.

Blind CB are meh.

Robert

[Mental]

oops that's right :)

But i am pretty sure he will lead with a first turn SDT. His hand doesnt have any draw.

Blind CB are meh.

Robert

They are? What build of 5-Color Thresh are you playing?

[Shtriga]

Im thinking about this version:

// Lands
1 [R] Bayou
2 [ON] Wooded Foothills
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [A] Underground Sea
2 [R] Volcanic Island
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [B] Tropical Island

// Creatures
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant

// Spells
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [PS] Terminate
3 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [DIS] Trygon Predator
SB: 2 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [R] Control Magic
SB: 4 [FUT] Yixlid Jailer
SB: 3 [8E] Pyroclasm

This deck have a mini Splasn of red for including Terminate and some side boards cards, control magic is vs aggro loam decks.

isn't it better to splash white for swords to plowshares? it's better than terminate

[Adan]

isn't it better to splash white for swords to plowshares? it's better than terminate

Sideboard Pyroclasm-Hype.

But you are right, white splash for StoP is better. Pyroclasm is still hyped too much and since you are running black anyways, you have access to Engineered Plague. But they are both good.

[Hana, The Deadly Flower]

If I expect to see thresh in a 100+ player legacy tournament, Would playing UGb be a better choice for disruption? And what is the best sideboard for the deck. Is it wise to add like 4 more duress to SB or just have spell snare?

[Citrus-God]

Sideboard Pyroclasm-Hype.

But you are right, white splash for StoP is better. Pyroclasm is still hyped too much and since you are running black anyways, you have access to Engineered Plague. But they are both good.

What kills you more often, an enchantment vulnerable to Ray of Revelation or a Sorcery washing the board clean of zombie tokens?

[lavafrogg]

Pyroclasm is awesome but with black you get plauge which is an awesome and efficient goblins hoser and if you need more than that you can play infest or hideous laughter.
Just so beginners understand: sideboards are all metagame cards and completly depend on the metagame that you are playing in. I love seeing peoples sideboards and seeing four pyroblasts when one or two people play red in the format. Certian cxards are just good in sideboards if you are playing that color because certian decks/strategies are viable...exterpate for example... it is good against combo and many other decks(few win conditions/ vunerable mana base(waste exterpate))
THe main deck is the reason you play colors and the side board is why you play cards or splashes...that makles sense to me because im drunk so think about it...

[Adan]

What kills you more often, an enchantment vulnerable to Ray of Revelation or a Sorcery washing the board clean of zombie tokens?

It doesn't matter, with UGb you have Yixlid Jailer and Extirpate anyways, so boarding in either Pyroclasms or Engineered Plague is additional, but not necessary.

With UGb, we have at least Engineered Plagues against Goblins. I would not recommend a red splash since the manabase of UGb is already weakened by the fact that that the manabase can't be more flexible (how do you want to include a Forest and green fetches without screwing up the entire manabase? Bayous -> Daze-antisynergy?).


If I expect to see thresh in a 100+ player legacy tournament, Would playing UGb be a better choice for disruption? And what is the best sideboard for the deck. Is it wise to add like 4 more duress to SB or just have spell snare?

UGb (my build with Counterbalance) has got 1 advantage compared to other builds:

It generates massive CA (Confidant AND Counterbalance-Top), has got efficient removal which doesn't gives the opponent life (Smother-Ghastly Demise) and has got more disruption (Thoughtseize, yeah!).

So theoretically, UGb should be the strongest build for the mirrormatch (this is my point of view). Additionally, it doesn't scoops to Ichorid.

The disadvantage is the increased lifeloss, as well as the specificity of the removal ( Ghastly Demise -> "Non-black" and Smother -> " >3" ), which makes it shaky in a metagame with a huge diversity of decks. Counterbalance is also a card that can be dead against some matchups like Chalice-Aggro, Goblins, Ichorid and whatsoever.
In the past, I've always had big problems against Affinity and also lost a couple of games (Smother on Frogmite and Myr Enforcer? RIIIGHT!!! -.-).

[Hana, The Deadly Flower]

Adan, is it wise to have 4 duress in SB or 4 thoughtseize is enough disruption? Also would you recommend having 2-3 extripates in board?

[Adan]

Adan, is it wise to have 4 duress in SB or 4 thoughtseize is enough disruption? Also would you recommend having 2-3 extripates in board?

Duress is overkill, you already have Thoughtseizes in the maindeck.
You should rather play versatile cards (yes, like Extirpate) or cards that help you in some matchups.

Well, my build currently looks like this:

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [B] Island (3)
4 [B] Underground Sea
4 [B] Tropical Island

// Creatures
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
1 [OD] Ghastly Demise
3 [ON] Smother

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [FUT] Yixlid Jailer
SB: 3 [B] Blue Elemental Blast

Extirpate is such a good card... it's unbelievable, it comes in against the mirrormatch and against control, as well as against recursion decks or graveyardbased decks (Loam, Ichorid).

Blue Blasts are good against Goblins obv. but I guess they might as well be replaced by Needles if you are afraid of Landstill ot decks like It's the Fear which could rape you with Wasteland, Stronghold, Ruins, Explosives, Deed... Against Survival it's also useful.

[Hana, The Deadly Flower]

can u afford to run wastelands for 3 colors or it's too fragile?

[lavafrogg]

You could run wastelands but you become more vunerable to them yourself...its kind of a go big or go home kind of mentality...

[raharu]

UGb Thrash: What does it look like?

[THEchubbymuffin]

UGb Thrash: What does it look like?

4 Dark Confidant
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Ghastly Demise
1 Rushing River
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
1 Wipe Away
4 Ponder

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

SB
3 Extirpate
4 Thoughtseize
4 Krosan Grip
4 Engineered Plague

Would be what I think would be a a UGB thrash, I wanted Seizes MD but couldnt find space.

[Adan]

I play it like this:

// Lands
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [A] Tropical Island
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [B] Underground Sea
1 [B] Island (3)
3 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [LRW] Ponder
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [PLC] Extirpate
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [SC] Stifle
1 [OD] Ghastly Demise
3 [ON] Smother

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [FUT] Yixlid Jailer
SB: 4 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
SB: 1 [B] Swamp (1)

I have not tested Thoughtseizes yet and it also looks a littlebit contradictory to the concept since you sometimes only want to "Island-Go" on Turn 1 where Thoughtseize would usually shine.
Instead, we play Extirpate since it's a broken card anyway and makes the manandenial-aspect stronger.

An alternative build with Thoughtseizes could look like this:

// Lands
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [A] Tropical Island
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [B] Underground Sea
1 [B] Island (3)
3 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [LRW] Ponder
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [SC] Stifle
1 [OD] Ghastly Demise
3 [ON] Smother
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [FUT] Yixlid Jailer
SB: 4 [IA] Hydroblast

[toxic@venger]

I´ve been thinking on a faerie U/B/G version without moongoose (I think this creature is too weak in the current metagame) and with Bitterblossom (yes, I love this card). This is the first version I´m working on. I expect your suggestions:

4 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Trygon Predator

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Smother
3 Thoughtseize
3 Spell Snare
3 Ponder
4 Bitterblossom
2 Umezawa's Jitte

2 Flooded Strand
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
1 Bayou

Sideboard

4 Leyline of the void
3 Enginereed Plague
3 Piting Needle
3 BeB
2 Sower of temptation

[Adan]

I´ve been thinking on a faerie U/B/G version without moongoose (I think this creature is too weak in the current metagame) and with Bitterblossom (yes, I love this card). This is the first version I´m working on. I expect your suggestions:

4 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Trygon Predator

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Smother
3 Thoughtseize
3 Spell Snare
3 Ponder
4 Bitterblossom
2 Umezawa's Jitte

2 Flooded Strand
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
1 Bayou

Sideboard

4 Leyline of the void
3 Enginereed Plague
3 Piting Needle
3 BeB
2 Sower of temptation

There already have been multiple posts abou Bitterblossom and how good and how bad it is.

It's stong in the earlygame but gets worse the more you get to the mid- and lategame. Multiple Bitterblossoms are also not really good since the increased lifeloss might kill you faster than the Faeries can kill the opponent.

Counterbalance and Dark Confidant shall be the cards to generate CA.

As for Spellstutter Sprite:

As already seen in the ayB-guys Not Quite Survival list:

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=14840

Spellstutter Sprite is a pretty good card, but for my feeling it doesn't allow you to play aggressive since it's just a 1/1 Flyer with Flash. It makes the whole deck more or even too reactive and therefore less aggressive.
I played the same list in Heidelberg, but with Mongeese instead of Sprites and made 3-0-1 top2 split (small tournament, though) because then I was less dependant on Survival.

What makes you think that Nimble Mongeese are weak in the current meta, they always have been good.

[Illissius]

4 Dark Confidant
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Ghastly Demise
1 Rushing River
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
1 Wipe Away
4 Ponder

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

SB
3 Extirpate
4 Thoughtseize
4 Krosan Grip
4 Engineered Plague

Would be what I think would be a a UGB thrash, I wanted Seizes MD but couldnt find space.

Spell Snares, I would think. One piece of disruption for another. Snares have better synergy with Stifle, but Thoughtseize is just a stupidly powerful card, so it could be a worthwhile tradeoff. You can also play a pair of Tops instead of the bounce spells, if you're willing to play without maindeck outs to resolved artifacts or enchantments, and then a third Top and a set of Counterbalances in the board -- given that you don't play any must kill artifacts or enchantments in the maindeck so your opponent isn't inclined to bring in Grips, this could be effective. (Another alternative is to move two of the Grips to the main from the side, in place of the bounce spells, and then put both the Tops and the Counterbalances in the board). This leaves you with 20 blue cards, which is not great but hopefully sufficient.

Also, I wouldn't play Spellstutters with only Blossoms to back them up. Being able to counter two mana spells is huge.

[Asfalto]

What about Putrefy? it's a great card, even thought that it can destroy Crucible and Tombstalker... These are my build, anyway:

Tempo Version:

4x Tarmgoyf
4x Dark Confidant
4x Nimble Mongoose

4x Ponder
4x Brainstom
4x Force Of Will
4x Spell Snare
4x Daze
4x Stifle
3x Putrefy
3x Ghastly Demise

1x Island
1x Bayou
4x Tropical Island
3x Underground sea
3x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand
3x Wasteland

Coounterbalance Version:

4x Tarmgoyf
4x Dark Confidant
4x Nimble Mongoose

4x Ponder
4x Brainstom
4x Force Of Will
4x Daze
3x Stifle
3x Thoughtseize
3x Putrefy

3x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Counterblance

1x Island
1x Swamp
1x Bayou
4x Tropical Island
4x Underground Sea
4x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand

Thoughtseize may work only in a CB version: the Balance improves a Sorcery-speed game, while Tempo is just an Instant playing way.

[raharu]

Adan: Why not the full set of Stifles and Wastes? I was actually thinking something more like this:

Lands: 18
Wasteland x4
Polluted Delta x4
Flooded Strand x2
Tropical Island x4
Underground Sea x3
Island x1

Creatures: 8
Nimble Mongoose x4
Tarmogyf x4

Cantrips: 8
Brainstorm x4
Ponder x4

Removal: 4
Ghastly Demise x2
Smother x2

Disruption: 22
Stifle x4
Spell Snare x4
Thouhtseize x4
Extirpate x2
Daze x4
Force of Will x4

Actually, when I look at it, I think that two or three more cantrips would be nice, but they might gum up the early hands, and I wouldn't know what to play. Serum Visions or Opt, I presume... Ewwww, Opt.

Alright, I'm done.

[Illissius]

Putrefy is way too slow and doesn't even destroy Counterbalance.

Anyways, I like THEchubbymuffin's build which I quoted for the most part. This is a tempo deck, and Ghastly Demise, while not Swords, is the best removal you have access to in terms of tempo. Only Snuff Out is better, and while Snuff Out is otherwise fucking awesome, the deck already has Dark Confidant and hopefully Thoughtseize in it which makes it awkward.

[raharu]

I like that build as well, but the lack of MD 'Seizes and Extirpates makes me look at it kinda sideways.

On a side note, is Confidant really that mandatory? I'm aware of how strong it is, but I'm somewhat inclined to think that the core creaturebase + 18 pieces of dedicated disruption (i.e. everything but Stifle, which is LD as well) would be stronger. Really, I presume it's a question of wether or not you think Thoughtseize > Dark Confidant or not. DC grants a better late game, but I'd think that epic disruption would be as strong, albeit earier, where I'd rather be playing Trash.

On a tangent, what's the general concencus on MD Extirpate? It's generally useful, and the ManaDenial Plan makes it strong enough to play, at least game one, in the matches where it's tradidionally weak (goblins/ Agro).