[OLD] UGb Threshold [Archive] - Page 4

KrzyMoose

08-07-2008, 09:37 PM

There have been a few posts about Bitterblossom a few pages back. I, myself, have tested it quite a bit, and I know other people have, too. I know a couple of UGB builds with Bitterblossom Top 8'ed over in Europe.

Bitterblossom is great against the mirror. It's also great when you get it down
early against Aggro decks. It's also decent against Control decks. It is worse than Thoughtseize in the Combo matchup.

However, you already have a good matchup against the mirror, and an okay matchup against Control. So, Bitterblossom's significance in the Aggro matchup should be examined most closely.

What I've found is that as the game draws on, against Aggro decks, casting Bitterblossom becomes less and less good. Sure, if you can land it on turn two or three, it can be a complete monster. But, when you draw it later on, it is very costly, more so than Thoughtseize. Thoughtseize, if you draw and cast it later in the game, costs you two life. Bitterblossom will cost you more, and may not end the game soon enough.

Even though Bitterblossom has a large effect on board position, it's benefits can only be felt in the early game.

Personally, I love the card. But, it's not that much better than Thoughtseize.

raharu

08-08-2008, 12:40 AM

I presume DC is the whole reason to splash black, regardless of what build you're playing. I figured that in Thrash DC was just a tool for the late-game, where you kinda don't want to be, but it's more of a constant reload. That explanation works.

Adan

08-08-2008, 07:42 AM

Why do these tempo lists only play 3 Dazes? They make sense when you play stuff like CounterTop or EE or expensive finishers, but for straight Thrash I don't see the point.

That's what I told Fabian as well after I saw his list. He simply netdecked it and said that he can't find any space for the 4th Daze.

Why does nobody play Bitterblossom in the Thoughtseize Slot?

Bitterblossom is - in compairison with Thoughtseize - a rather situational and therefore clunky card.

Thoughtseize is endless times more flexible, ensures you to resolve your threats (or picking the opponent's threats away) and in case of Thrash, to disrupt the opponent hard together with Stifle-Waste.

And I would play at least one basic Swamp. During my testing i always loose against Magus of the Moon if he hits the table.

When? The trick is to float black mana in response and then hit him with Smother/Demise.
For other situations you have counters and SB BEBs/Hydros.
And if he comes down lateer, the Goyfs you have played before can still kill him.
Since there are free slots in the Sb of the Thrash build I play at the moment, I have the Swamp in the Sideboard, though.

Nihil Credo

08-10-2008, 05:57 PM

Yes, I admit, DC is great, but I don't think it's that great if you draw it midgame when the opponent has Counterbalance/Top active.

So? I'm pretty sure Thoughtseize is just as if not more crap in that situation.

I will admit, DC > Thoughtseize early game in the mirror, but Thoughtseize helps you attack the opponent where he's weak, whether that may be taking a Goyf, CB component, or just denying him of anything of importance in general like counters.

In the mirror match of the most consistent deck in the format? If I were to pick, I'll take the draw engine any day long, thanks. Few exceptions come to mind (e.g. when either player has a natural turn 3 CounterTop lock to resolve and the opponent has no Brainstorm).

Two more disclaimers: 1) I wasn't talking just about the mirror; 2) In the mirror, I bring in the Thoughtseizes from the side when I'm not maindecking them.

Citrus-God

08-10-2008, 06:10 PM

So? I'm pretty sure Thoughtseize is just as if not more crap in that situation.

This is true.

In the mirror match of the most consistent deck in the format? If I were to pick, I'll take the draw engine any day long, thanks. Few exceptions come to mind (e.g. when either player has a natural turn 3 CounterTop lock to resolve and the opponent has no Brainstorm).

Two more disclaimers: 1) I wasn't talking just about the mirror; 2) In the mirror, I bring in the Thoughtseizes from the side when I'm not maindecking them.

Maindeck Confidants and Thoughtseizes in the Sideboard doesnt sound like a bad idea. You should show me your list.

As for Dark Confidant being a draw engine, I admit he's very good, but right now, I just feel that there are better cards than him at the moment. I will admit, he's better than Mystic Enforcer.

raharu

08-11-2008, 12:20 AM

DC > Enforcer? Maybe Enforcer isn't good as a 4-of, but it isn't that bad. Personally, I'd put the two on roughly the same power lever.

Adan

08-11-2008, 03:20 AM

DC > Enforcer? Maybe Enforcer isn't good as a 4-of, but it isn't that bad. Personally, I'd put the two on roughly the same power lever.

Dark Confidant is better than Mystic Enforcer.

Mystic Enforcer is only played in UGw Threshold builds with Counterbalance whereas Dark Confidant sees play on both UGb Thresh tempo and the one with Counterbalance.

In both decks, he serves different roles:

In UGb Thrash, he's rather an aggressor which keeps the draw of disruption fluent (Stifle-Waste-Seize/Snare). Beating for 2 Damage doesn't sound huge, but hey, it works. Having 4 Dark Confidants maindecked also helps you to recover faster if you have to blow up a EE for 2 to handle... something.

But in UGb Threshold with Counterbalance, he's mainly a drawengine (and he ROCKS with SDT!!!) since the build's killspeed is slower due to the higher permanentcount and therefore slightly weaker Mongeese. I also don't want to have multiple Confidants because it would make the deck clunky. If you have 1 Dark Confidant, it's already enough, you don't need more. Any Dark Confidant drawn further is - in my opinion - a "dead" card (well, he isn't but he could always be something... better!). That's why I only run 3 of them and it's enough.

And since the Cardadvantage (Counterbalance - Confidant) wins WAY more matchups than Mystic Enforcer -> DC > Enforcer.

raharu

08-11-2008, 07:59 PM

True, but Mystic Enforcer isn't a candidate for play in a tempo list (being both white and 4 mana), and wins games single-handedly. DC puts you in a strong position, where Mystic Enforcer, as a top-deck in a bad situation (presuming it's a creature-based bad situation) will turn the game around. I have yet to see DC save a severely negatively skewed position.

Henrik

08-18-2008, 05:11 AM

Joon

08-18-2008, 06:23 AM

I really like those Thrash decks, but I can't say for sure which build is better: the classic red Canadian Thresh or something like this:

Black Thrash

4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Dark Confidant

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Smother/Thoughtseize
2 Extirpate

SB

1 Gaea's Blessing
2 Extirpate
2 Krosan Grip
2 Trygon Predator
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Mind Harness
4 Hydroblast

I'm actually unsure if I should play Smother or Thoughtseize in the main. I'd like to see the other card in the Sideboard, as I could switch between Removal and more Disruption. So I'd be prepared for everything in G2.

I tried to build a draft with both Smother AND Thoughtseize in the main, and here it is:

4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Thoughtseize
3 Smother
3 Ponder
2 Spell Snare
2 Extirpate

SB stays the same.

Please tell me what you think about both builds. Is "hard" removal really needed in Thrash lists? (Canadian Thresh plays "only" Burn - no real removal for a goyf for example). What do you say about the numbers? Are 3 Ponder's enough along with Brainstorm in a deck without Top?

KrzyMoose

08-18-2008, 05:58 PM

The UGb trash lists looks really nice and playtests well for me, though I haven't had the chance to test against that many different competative decks. Does anyone know if this type of deck have had any success in a bigger tournament?

You should look at the Historical Top 8 Thread 2008, located here:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9567

Here's a 36-person event in Germany from last month:
http://www.deckcheck.net/event.php?event=Legacy+Hassloch+07%2F08

and here's a 72-man event in Spain from last month:
http://www.deckcheck.net/event.php?event=LCL+Badalona+07%2F08

Both of the lists labeled "UGb Threshold" are actually UGb Thrash lists.

@ Joon's lists:
I would recommend cutting a Wasteland and Stifle from each list. Then, you have two slots to play around with. Both lists look okay, though. It's really up to personal preference.

Henrik

08-19-2008, 09:47 AM

@Krzymooze

Thank you!
Although it is not rocket science (a trashlist is a trashlist is a...), but it's nice to have some proven succesfull lists as a reference.

Just me

08-25-2008, 07:18 AM

Has anyone tried Profane Command + Shriekmaw to be able to dominate the Goyf vs Goyf fights? 'Maw is like Smother but sorcery speed. Profane Command allows for fear (bypassing a Goyf standoff) and 'zombifies' Goyf's that were killed in combat. Incidently fireballing people out of the game is a nice option as well and a 3/2 Smother with fear als bypasses Goyf standoffs.

The fact that it puts a creature into the GY easier is nice as well though usually there's a creature in a GY after Smother as often as with Shriekmaw.

Adan

08-25-2008, 07:44 AM

Has anyone tried Profane Command + Shriekmaw to be able to dominate the Goyf vs Goyf fights? 'Maw is like Smother but sorcery speed.

Maw is like 5 Damage with Confidant and Sorcery-Speed Terror which obviously sucks more than Terror itself.

Profane Command allows for fear (bypassing a Goyf standoff) and 'zombifies' Goyf's that were killed in combat.

For at least 4 Mana? :rolleyes: Seems worse than Tombstalker to me (he's antisynergetic with Geese, but he's a 5/5 Flyer for 2, meh...)

Incidently fireballing people out of the game is a nice option as well

5 Mana for 3 Damage? 6 for 4? 7 for 5? Lightning Bolt does 3 for 1 Mana...

and a 3/2 Smother with fear also bypasses Goyf standoffs.

For 5 Mana...

The fact that it puts a creature into the GY easier is nice as well though usually there's a creature in a GY after Smother as often as with Shriekmaw.

And so it is no advantage.

And especially if you are talkign about the mirrormatch... Meh, the only thing I will say about that is:

Beware of the Daze...

My current build looks liek this:

// Lands
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [B] Island (3)
4 [B] Underground Sea
4 [B] Tropical Island

// Creatures
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [LRW] Ponder
3 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
1 [OD] Ghastly Demise
3 [ON] Smother
2 [CST] Portent

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [FUT] Yixlid Jailer
SB: 4 [B] Blue Elemental Blast

I played it in Hassloch (but with 1 more land and 1 Confidant less) and went 1-3 drop, loss against Goblins, Ichorid and a Rock-like Deck. I won against UWb Landstill. I can't explain my flop, but I flooded a lot of times and got topdecked a lot. But of course there's no failure without having played like a retard, which I did. So it's my fault, not the deck's. I kept hands which were way too risky and that's why I got raped by Cabal Therapy and Wastelands very hard.
I couldn't do much against that 20-removal-rock-thing anyway, and I have to confess that I played bad by playing Counterbalance, tapping 2 of 5 Mana and playing the only blue card I had in my hand. Then he resolves Garruk Wildspeaker, I disabled my FoW in 2 ways and after he draws a Deed 1 Turn after I scoop.

Call me a scrub...

KrzyMoose

08-25-2008, 01:57 PM

My current build looks liek this:

// Lands
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [B] Island (3)
4 [B] Underground Sea
4 [B] Tropical Island

16 Land? Really? That seems dangerously low. I know you're playing 10 cantrips and 3 Tops, but why even risk it? You can never win a game where you're manascrewed, but you can always win a game where you're manaflooded. 17 is the bare minimum I'd ever run, but I have been running 18 land in every Threshold list I've ever run since the beginning of the deck.

// Creatures
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant

Yep.

// Spells
26 The Good Stuff
1 [OD] Ghastly Demise
3 [ON] Smother
2 [CST] Portent

Now, I, myself, run the White splash for Swords (which I love; however, I guess it does depend on the metagame. White gives access to my favorite card ever: SERENITY. But I do see a lot of Affinity, Stax, and stuff. I dunno, StP is just so nuts, though.). However, I would drop the Portent all together. I would then add either another Smother or another Demise, and then add another land.

I don't see a real need for Portent, especially as its a 2-of. It seems to me those slots would be better off as other cards.

Adan

08-25-2008, 03:46 PM

16 Land? Really? That seems dangerously low. I know you're playing 10 cantrips and 3 Tops, but why even risk it? You can never win a game where you're manascrewed, but you can always win a game where you're manaflooded. 17 is the bare minimum I'd ever run, but I have been running 18 land in every Threshold list I've ever run since the beginning of the deck.

Which spell in my deck goes above CC2 (except Force of Will)?
Again: Do I NEED 17 lands? I don't have to support expansive cards like Mystic Enforcer. So I don't need 17 lands. The manabase can be maintained perfectly with those 10 cantrips.

Now, I, myself, run the White splash for Swords (which I love; however, I guess it does depend on the metagame. White gives access to my favorite card ever: SERENITY. But I do see a lot of Affinity, Stax, and stuff. I dunno, StP is just so nuts, though.). However, I would drop the Portent all together. I would then add either another Smother or another Demise, and then add another land.

I've also tested Swords to Plowshares, but I've cut them since it fucks up your manabase. Fetching a "offcolor" duals only for removal is a waste of 1 fetchland.

Just me

08-26-2008, 10:02 AM

I played it in Hassloch (but with 1 more land and 1 Confidant less) and went 1-3 drop, loss against Goblins, Ichorid and a Rock-like Deck. I won against UWb Landstill. I can't explain my flop, but I flooded a lot of times and got topdecked a lot. But of course there's no failure without having played like a retard, which I did. So it's my fault, not the deck's. I kept hands which were way too risky and that's why I got raped by Cabal Therapy and Wastelands very hard.
I couldn't do much against that 20-removal-rock-thing anyway, and I have to confess that I played bad by playing Counterbalance, tapping 2 of 5 Mana and playing the only blue card I had in my hand. Then he resolves Garruk Wildspeaker, I disabled my FoW in 2 ways and after he draws a Deed 1 Turn after I scoop.

Call me a scrub...

Counterbalance in this deck looks very weak since there is just 1 and 2 converted manacost with the exception of FOW. That might be 1 reason why the deck didn't play that great.

And the Goyf's are not optimally supported (no enchantments or artifacts which you would like to see hit the GY). In order for them to be big you need help from your opponent or have things go wrong with the CB + Top plan.

Your argument against the Profane Command + Shriekmaw basically says; too much mana. Given the 16 lands in your deck your reasoning might be biased? It's a great way to topdeck out of a manaflood and I do have games go longer then 4-5 turns (which often means 5-6 mana or evne more in a drawn out game).

And your reasoning with Lightning Bolt 1 mana = 3 damage is slightly biased as well. Command does 2 things. For 3 damage I need 5 mana but also can create an unblockable Goyf, adding another 4-5 damage. So that's 7-8 damage for 5 mana with 1 card. Just depends on how you look at it.

Shugyosha

08-26-2008, 10:59 AM

Counterbalance in this deck looks very weak since there is just 1 and 2 converted manacost with the exception of FOW. That might be 1 reason why the deck didn't play that great.

And the Goyf's are not optimally supported (no enchantments or artifacts which you would like to see hit the GY). In order for them to be big you need help from your opponent or have things go wrong with the CB + Top plan.

Your argument against the Profane Command + Shriekmaw basically says; too much mana. Given the 16 lands in your deck your reasoning might be biased? It's a great way to topdeck out of a manaflood and I do have games go longer then 4-5 turns (which often means 5-6 mana or evne more in a drawn out game).

And your reasoning with Lightning Bolt 1 mana = 3 damage is slightly biased as well. Command does 2 things. For 3 damage I need 5 mana but also can create an unblockable Goyf, adding another 4-5 damage. So that's 7-8 damage for 5 mana with 1 card. Just depends on how you look at it.

it doesn't matter whether you play 16, 17 or 18 lands. Command is just very slow. Threshold wants to get a stable manabase out with around 3-5 lands. After three lands you try to dig for spells instead of lands. Occassionally you need a fetchland and you then will end up at 5 lands to hardcast FOW. To recur a creature you also need one in your grave which is not always the case. I rather play something cheaper mana-wise like a removal spell to push my Goyf through and use counters to protect it. Thats the plan of threshold and it works fine.

To counter only cmc 0-2 has its merits as you do it on a reliable basis. How many cmc 3 and 4 slots you want in a deck depends on your meta, your boarding plan and your play style. In the mirror its quite strong to have a low Balance curve.

Shriekmaw is nice and all. I tried it myself with a 1-off Volrath's Stronghold but I you are usually not able to hardcast it and its sorcery speed. Still that's OK. The real problem is when your opponent doesn't have targets (Landstill, Sui, Dreadstill) and you have a Goyf out. It's a dead card.

Adan

08-26-2008, 12:23 PM

Let's dismantle your post...

Counterbalance in this deck looks very weak since there is just 1 and 2 converted manacost with the exception of FOW. That might be 1 reason why the deck didn't play that great.

Let's compare with my recent UGW build I piloted in Mannheim, placing 3rd out of 22, losing against merfolks (people, please shut up here!):

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=19227

2 cards for CC3, 1 card for CC4. The remaining CCs are also between 1-2, which makes Counterbalance already broken enough in this format against several decks.

This has no direct influence of how good/bad the deck itself is, but if you take a look at my matchups again, you will notice that Counterbalance is not strong against either Goblins, Ichorid or The Rock.
This is inevitable. If you want to play Counterbalance and support CC3 cards to have a broad spectrum of CCs, I'd suggest playing David "Deep6er" Gearheart's "The Fear". The consequence will be a way more control-oriented, anti-aggressive deckconcept.

And the Goyf's are not optimally supported (no enchantments or artifacts which you would like to see hit the GY).

LOLROFLOMGWTF. We have 10 (!!!) Sorceries, 4 of them being Thoughtseizes which handle things you don't want to let the opponent resolve. The remaining stuff is default. Tarmogoyf is in average 4/5. Now this was just sooo wrong.

In order for them to be big you need help from your opponent or have things go wrong with the CB + Top plan.

...If I have Counterbalance+Top, I win...?

Your argument against the Profane Command + Shriekmaw basically says; too much mana. Given the 16 lands in your deck your reasoning might be biased? It's a great way to topdeck out of a manaflood and I do have games go longer then 4-5 turns (which often means 5-6 mana or evne more in a drawn out game).

Which advantage does it have to stuff more CC5 and CC2 cards into the deck? 1 of them pinging for 5 when revealed with a Confidant and the other requiring 1000 Mana to work.

And your reasoning with Lightning Bolt 1 mana = 3 damage is slightly biased as well. Command does 2 things. For 3 damage I need 5 mana but also can create an unblockable Goyf, adding another 4-5 damage. So that's 7-8 damage for 5 mana with 1 card. Just depends on how you look at it.

Great idea, I will test Fireball in UGR then. It can kill Goyfs for only 7 Mana which is great when you are flooded.

Henrik

08-27-2008, 06:56 AM

Adan

08-27-2008, 07:39 AM

Com'on Adan, that's just unfair.
I don't say profane command is a great card in the deck either, I would probably never think of the idea to run it, but even though you are convinced you are right in an issue, you should at least pay respect to arguments of opposing part. The fireball analogy is rather silly.

Well, except for being morally on high horses today, I don't have any input.

It's obvious that Profane Command is incredibly expansive. And if you play properly (i.e. play your cantrips correct and well-timed), you won't necessarily flood. It makes no sense to play a card that supports you in a scenario that rarely happens (well, it happened to me in Hassloch, but that's because I made wrong mulligan decisions and therefore played quite stupid to be honest).

Henrik

08-27-2008, 09:59 AM

Yeah I know, and as I've already stated, I totaly agree...

Guevera59

08-29-2008, 11:40 AM

Hey guys, I've been watching this thread for some time and I developed the following list.

UBgw Thresh

Land// 18
3x Tropical Island
3x Underground Sea
3x Tundra
4x Flooded Strand
3x Polluted Delta
1x Forest
1x Island

Creatures// 12
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Mongeese
4x Dark Confidant

Spells// 30
4x Thoughtseize
3x Stifle
3x Extirpate
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder

SB// 15
3x Krosan Grip
3x Hydroblast
3x Yixlid Jailer
3x Slaughter Pact
3x Engineered Plague

At first I went with straight UBg but smothers just weren't cutting it. In my meta, Exalted Angels, Stalkers, Pit-Dragons, Eternal Dragons, Hierarchs etc run rampant. I decided to make the mana-base a little weaker to support the StP's. I then had to then cut the wastes and add Basic land to make me less susceptible to Wastes and Moon effects, which are also big in my meta. The stifle/extirpate package is just pure waste-hate. Slaughter Pact may be a questionable SB choice but MotM is just devastating. My only problem with my decklist is that I have no answers to non-creature permanents once they stick, should I try to fit in rushing rivers? Should I try EE since I can sunburst up to 4 colors?

Thanks,
G59

Elf_Ascetic

08-31-2008, 05:41 AM

@G59:
I've had some succes with two mainboard vindicates. I would say, cut 3 Extirpate for two of them, and add the fourth Stifle.

If you're so afraid of Magus, just run some bounce in your board, and make sure to fetch the island first.

ParkerLewis

08-31-2008, 07:04 AM

Hello guys,

I'm currently running an (outdated) UGw thresh list, and i'd want to move to UGbw, or simply getting rid of W altogether and going to straight UGb (even though that would make my tundras sad. and no, i wouldn't give them to you).

As a reference, here's the old list :

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [B] Tropical Island
3 [B] Tundra
1 [PT] Forest (1)
2 [APL] Island (3)

// Creatures
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [OD] Mystic Enforcer

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares
4 [LRW] Ponder
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [OD] Predict
3 [CS] Counterbalance

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [BOK] Threads of Disloyalty
SB: 3 [6E] Serenity
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt

Consider my meta as a generic, but quite developed metagame. I guess you could think of it as the DtB forum (sort of).

So, how would you update the list ? I want at least some Dark Confidant (3x seems good), and probably some Thoughtseizes depending on the slots available. If I were to keep white, I would also be considering cards like Hoofprints, Oblivion Ring/Vindicate (the latter being more powerful but requiring two splash colors). Also on the list of potential cards : EE, Tombstalker, Smother, Diabolic Edict...

I guess the first slots to free would be the Predicts, and probably the Enforcers and/or some/all Needles. I also want to keep the CB engine - it just ruins too many decks to get rid of it.

This is what i've come up with so far :

1) completely getting rid of w :

// Lands
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [B] Tropical Island
3 [B] Underground Sea
1 [PT] Forest (1)
1 [APL] Island (3)
1 [US] Swamp (2)

// Creatures
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [RAV] Dark Confidant

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [LRW] Ponder
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [CS] Counterbalance
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [ON] Smother
2 [TE] Diabolic Edict
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
1 [SOK] Pithing Needle

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [BOK] Threads of Disloyalty
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [IA] Hydroblast

2) keeping w, making it a 4c list :

// Lands
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [B] Tropical Island
1 [PT] Forest (1)
1 [APL] Island (3)
2 [B] Underground Sea
1 [IA] Plains (1)
2 [U] Tundra

// Creatures
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [RAV] Dark Confidant

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [LRW] Ponder
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [AT] Swords to Plowshares
2 [LRW] Oblivion Ring

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [IA] Hydroblast

(SB in particular are still quite messy)

Thanks for your help guys.

edit : as you can see, i also want the manabase to incorporate at least 2 basics (1 island + 1 forest), and up to three if that doesn't make it completely shaky (like 2 islands + 1 forest, or a 1 island/1 forest/1 swamp/plains split). I still want to to not auto-lose against non-basic hate (b2b, moons).

Terminator1k

09-20-2008, 07:28 AM

After trying different directions for the deck, it seems to me that we need a 3cc in order to beat aggroloam with counterbalance. I don't know if anyone has tried to drop 4x ponder and get some 3cc instead of them. I think they serve the same role when we have the SDT on table, and the suffle effect is emulated by fetchlands.

The rest of the deck is really nice, under my point of view. So, do we need the 4xponder on the deck? (no question on brainstorm, of course).

Adan

09-20-2008, 08:27 AM

The rest of the deck is really nice, under my point of view. So, do we need the 4xponder on the deck? (no question on brainstorm, of course).

To make it short: Yes.

After I've done eating my noodles, I'll elaborate.

edit: Nice meal...

So, the reason why 4 Ponder are auto-include are:

It is the best cantrip available right after Brainstorm. I will show you a compairison of several cantrips here. I will compare up to how many cards the cantrips can show you until the next mainphase, so from one turn to the other:

Brainstorm: he shows you 3 additional cards, but you will be doomed to draw the crappy one you put back. This makes brainstorm look bad, but a shuffle effects makes him powerful. With a shuffle effect, he will show you 4 new cards until the next turn (the 3 drawn and the unknown one you will draw after having shuffled).

Ponder and Portent: They both can show you up to 5 cards. The 3 you see when you play it, the unknown one you draw after having shuffled and the 2nd unknown card you draw at the next mainphase.
But you can choose which card you want out of the 3 they reveal to you.

Serum Visions: Up to 4, the card drawn, the 2 scryed away and the 2nd card drawn at the next mainphase. The thing is that you will always get a random card which makes it unsuitable to play aggressive (i.e. finding critters efficiently and play them in teh same turn).

Sleight of Hand: 3, but there is no reason to play it anymore since Ponder is better as it offers you a wider selection of cards.

Opt: 3 as well, but the card you draw is also random.

The rest of the cantrips can be neglected. Mental Note and Predict serve different purposes.

But as you can see, Ponder is the best available cantrip beside Brainstorm as it helps you to fix the manabase and draws the card immediately unlike Portent which allows you to be more aggressive (playing just found creatures or other solutions immediately). These cantrips are also vital to fix the manabase and overall provide the most cardquality of all the cantrips listed above (beside Brainstorm, he's actually different) and therefore gives the deck way more consistency.

ParkerLewis

09-20-2008, 10:08 AM

I will show you a compairison of several cantrips blah blah blah

I think his question was not about which cantrip to run, but about the pertinence of running additional cantrips at all (ie, other than brainstorm) when SDT can fill a very similar role. In the sense that the cards effect seem to overlap a bit too much. Playing a one mana cantrip is not really better than just having payed 1 for the top effect and then actually drawn the card you wanted instead of said cantrip.

So, to answer the question, I guess the shuffle effect of Ponder is what makes it still useful in this case. Even with SDT on the table, if your top 3 cards end up being unnecessary crap, you'll be happy to be able to shuffle them away with it.

Adan

09-20-2008, 11:12 AM

I think his question was not about which cantrip to run, but about the pertinence of running additional cantrips at all (ie, other than brainstorm) when SDT can fill a very similar role. In the sense that the cards effect seem to overlap a bit too much. Playing a one mana cantrip is not really better than just having payed 1 for the top effect and then actually drawn the card you wanted instead of said cantrip.

Wrong, Sensei's Divining Top doesn't fix 1-land-hands and doesn't sucks at digging for Daze to have a counter for Lackey/Vial or whatsoever on the play or simply backup for a 2nd Turn Counterbalance.

Additionally, it's a permanent and it sucks when you have multiple copies of it IF you don't run Predict.

There is just no way to compare those 2 cards directly as they fullfill way too different roles. The aspect of manafixing, increasing the odds for having counterbackup on Turn 1 and digging for solutions (Ponder is better because of the built-in shuffle effect) make Ponder way more versatile and essential than Sensei's Divining Top could ever be.

Terminator1k

09-20-2008, 12:00 PM

Adan

09-20-2008, 03:55 PM

I can see both points of view, but still differ from you Adan. True: Ponder shows you five cards if you want to shuffle, but this effect is the same if SDT is on the table with fetchland, and even with this, you can see up to SIX cards (three, fetch, then antother three with the mana drawn).

As I said Ponder fixes 1-land-opening hands and increase the odds of having 1st Turn Daze/Force of Will. Sensei's Divining Top can't do that. And it also doesn't draw a card (you indirectly skip the next drawphase if you do with SDT).

But please don't understand me, I'm really wary of removing ponder and the only real point on doing so, is to increase the mana costs for threshold.And making it way more clunky by removing one of the cards that is providing the most cardquality?! WTF³

People arge that the deck doesn't compete because CB only counters cc1 and 2, so we need a 3cc on the deck. Because I don't want to remove mongoose (perfect answer for turn 1: lackey), and my 1cc is quite nice, the 4x ponders can be used as 3cc nad one more mana (up to 18th lands).ARGH, you are making the deck way more permanent-heavy and then you are talking about Nimble Mongoose! There's something seriously wrong.
It has NEVER been a problem that you can't counter CC3 spells because there are not soo many CC3 spells in total out there. For those few CC3 spells that disturb you (Pernicious Deed for example) you still have Force of Will and Thoughtseize.

Bonus question: Do you think darkblast is viable MD vs some differente things (confidant, lackey, goif wars, etc). It also sinergies with threshold and remove three cards you don't wanna have on top for your CB. Worth maindecking?[SNIP]

Take a deep breath, Adan. - Nihil Credo

Terminator1k

09-20-2008, 05:11 PM

Ok, understood your point of view and taken note on them. Tested the deck as it is (4xbrainstorm, 4xponder) and works the nuts. I'm also running 17 lands, and they seem enough.

I still have two free slots,and I'm wondering on incuding the darkblast, because my meta is going to be full of goblins. The one I'm missing could be the 18th land, or something like wipe away (always like to have something to bounce).

Thanks for the comments and excuse me for my unknowledge on the format and the deck.

undone

09-20-2008, 10:03 PM

If the meta is goblins just add 4 E plauge board. Dont weaken the main, just add gastly demise x2 or smother x2 and your set.

Adan

09-21-2008, 03:45 AM

I still have two free slots,and I'm wondering on incuding the darkblast, because my meta is going to be full of goblins. The one I'm missing could be the 18th land, or something like wipe away (always like to have something to bounce).

As for Darkblast, it's possible to play it, but I don't know whether it will have an impact on the Goblin matchup if you play it as a 1-of. And I'd nor play more than 1 since it does to less against the rest of the field.

If you have an issue with Goblins, Ghastly Demise should be your friend. I played 4 of them at the very beginning because there was a lot of Affinity and Goblins but then the meta changed a littlebit and I had to deal with Dark Confidant more than I had to deal with Goblins.

And remember that you can always support either Blueblasts or Engineered Plague in the SB.

As for the bounce spell: If you really want to play a bounce spell, try Repeal.
Since you are running 17 lands you can easily support it and have an out against Humility and so on...
It seems to make sense since UGb can't support Oblivion Ring.

ParkerLewis

09-21-2008, 06:50 AM

Wrong, Sensei's Divining Top doesn't fix 1-land-hands and doesn't sucks at digging for Daze to have a counter for Lackey/Vial or whatsoever on the play or simply backup for a 2nd Turn Counterbalance.

(stuff and arguments based on this)

I never said that. I just pointed out the fact he was referring to : cantrips losing a lot of their usefulness when SDT is already on the table.

Although the formulation I used might not have been crystal clear about this, check T1k's post once more. The exact words are there. That's the scenario he was talking about, and the one I based what I then said on, ie that notably Ponder is still useful in this case thanks to the shuffle effect.

Obfuscate Freely

09-21-2008, 12:16 PM

Sea Drake is probably the best 3cc spell you can play in UGb Threshold; in fact, it's simply a good card to play. It is certainly nice to have in the AggroLoam matchup, whether you draw Counterbalance or not.

As Adan said, though, you really shouldn't cut Ponder for anything. Next to Thoughtseize, Ponder is the deck's best turn-one play, and it sets up your early game better than Brainstorm or SDTop. For example, Ponder is key to winning Counterbalance wars in the mirror.

Darkblast is too weak to justify. It's actually pretty awful against Goblins, since it doesn't do anything to Warchiefs, Ringleaders, or Siege-Gang Commanders.

Jaiminho

09-21-2008, 12:20 PM

I never said that. I just pointed out the fact he was referring to : cantrips losing a lot of their usefulness when SDT is already on the table.

Although the formulation I used might not have been crystal clear about this, check T1k's post once more. The exact words are there. That's the scenario he was talking about, and the one I based what I then said on, ie that notably Ponder is still useful in this case thanks to the shuffle effect.

They will still draw you that card, making Top dig one card deeper. Works for me. And, yes, Ponder is even better.

Adan

09-21-2008, 02:56 PM

fallenphoenix

09-21-2008, 05:21 PM

It has NEVER been a problem that you can't counter CC3 spells because there are not soo many CC3 spells in total out there. For those few CC3 spells that disturb you (Pernicious Deed for example) you still have Force of Will and Thoughtseize.

If you expect a lot of MUs where CC3 matters (i.e. 4-C-Landstill, AggroLoam .. stuff like that), it's not necessarily a bad choice to add some (useful) 3CC-Spells for CB.
I used to play 3-C-Wizard-Fish with CB and 7* 3-CC-Spells, Landstill and Loam became very relaxing matches, once countertop was set up.

Uhm... so far... it's NOT a good idea to cut Ponder for stuff, just to reach that goal. And as Adan pointed out, having too many permanents makes Mongeese suck.
Also, being too depending on resolving spells during your mainphase makes it harder, to use your permission timely.

UG/b-Thresh can be tuned in sooo many ways that it is hard to actually point out the "best" version for any meta.

Darkblast? Why not! I ran into 2* Merfolk-decks today which would have been much more comfortable with Blast.
If you're meta ist overrun with tribals, having 1-2 Dark Blast in addition to Engineered plagues in the SB can be quite techy. This way you only need 2 out of 5-6 cards to buy A LOT (!) of time.

Vendillion Clique also seems to be nice tech, especially if you expect to face problematic cards like LftL, Mystic Enforcer or Humility .

Cryptic Command seems to be superior to Repeal most of the time (I actually tried Repeal in UGW and it was neat, but command would have been better 80% of the time)

memnarch

09-22-2008, 02:44 AM

If you expect a lot of MUs where CC3 matters (i.e. 4-C-Landstill, AggroLoam .. stuff like that), it's not necessarily a bad choice to add some (useful) 3CC-Spells for CB.
I used to play 3-C-Wizard-Fish with CB and 7* 3-CC-Spells, Landstill and Loam became very relaxing matches, once countertop was set up.

Uhm... so far... it's NOT a good idea to cut Ponder for stuff, just to reach that goal. And as Adan pointed out, having too many permanents makes Mongeese suck.
Also, being too depending on resolving spells during your mainphase makes it harder, to use your permission timely.

UG/b-Thresh can be tuned in sooo many ways that it is hard to actually point out the "best" version for any meta.

Darkblast? Why not! I ran into 2* Merfolk-decks today which would have been much more comfortable with Blast.
If you're meta ist overrun with tribals, having 1-2 Dark Blast in addition to Engineered plagues in the SB can be quite techy. This way you only need 2 out of 5-6 cards to buy A LOT (!) of time.

Vendillion Clique also seems to be nice tech, especially if you expect to face problematic cards like LftL, Mystic Enforcer or Humility .

Cryptic Command seems to be superior to Repeal most of the time (I actually tried Repeal in UGW and it was neat, but command would have been better 80% of the time)

Cryptic is 4 life to DC as opposed to 1. Although personally I prefer echoing truth. It picks up tokens. And is cheap enough to cast.

Pelikanudo

10-03-2008, 07:21 AM

What about his list?
4 Nimble moongose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 confidant
2 Psychatog

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Thoutghseize

4 Stifle
4 daze
4 Spell snare
4 FoW

4 Tropical island
4 Underground sea
3 Flooded strand
3 Polluted delta
4 Wasteland

SB
4 Blue Elemntal blast
4 Extirpate
4 Krosan grip
3 Smother

This list is the list I've been trying quite typical Is more like a 3shold tempo deck

Adan

10-03-2008, 05:06 PM

What about his list?
4 Nimble moongose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Thoutghseize
4 Spell snare
4 FoW
2 Wipe Away
4 Stifle

4 Tropical island
4 Underground sea
3 Flooded strand
3 Polluted delta
4 Wasteland

SB
4 Blue Elemntal blast
4 Extirpate
4 Krosan grip
3 Smother

This list is the list I've been trying quite typical Is more like a 3shold tempo deck

What the? You have 0 removal MD and 0 Dark Confidant. That list is obviously garbage. But no wonder, it only has 52 cards. o.O

This is an example of how a competitive list could look like:

// Lands
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [B] Tropical Island
4 [B] Underground Sea
1 [UG] Island
3 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [LRW] Ponder
3 [ON] Smother
3 [LRW] Thoughtseize
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [SC] Stifle
3 [DIS] Spell Snare

This is a rather flexible build but if you want to make the manadenial-aspect harder, I'd play it like this:

// Lands
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [B] Tropical Island
4 [B] Underground Sea
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [LRW] Ponder
3 [ON] Smother
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [PLC] Extirpate
1 [OD] Ghastly Demise

But I like the first list better since Thoughtseize and Explosives are very versatile cards and never really dead.

ParkerLewis

10-03-2008, 06:40 PM

What the? You have 0 removal MD and 0 Dark Confidant. That list is obviously garbage. But no wonder, it only has 52 cards. o.O

Then maybe you could have kindly suggested him that he might want to add those as 4-ofs, or even gone on a limb and *gasp* give him the benefit of doubt and consider he may just have forgotten those ?

Back on topic... Pelikanudo, your list is solid (well it's a typical one, you said it yourself), as long as you actually do have the 4x Confidant in the remaining slots, and some removal in the 4 last ones (i would put the smothers in the main though. Something like a 3/1 split of Smother / EE comes to mind).

Also, the mana denying aspect (wasteland) has to be gauged against your own manabase resiliancy. If you don't expect to encounter any hate (moon effects, wastelands, etc), then go on, otherwise it may be useful to at least consider trying replacing the wastes with a few basics and additional fetches.

kiwi

10-09-2008, 05:43 PM

What do you think about to build a version with back to basic in main for metagames full of Landstills and decks with not basic lands ?

raharu

10-09-2008, 06:30 PM

Bad plan. Really bad plan. Considering that the typical threshold manabase looks like this:

18 lands
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
2 Islands

and you can't cast your threats off of basics and can't spin top off of your non-basics more than once, I'm pretty sure that Back to Basics (which is typically run as a serious threat against threshold in MUC) isn't a good idea. If your metagame is littered with non-basic lands, I would suggest either playing UGb Thrash, UGr Thrash (if you don't have a whole lot of combo, i.e. you don't have much reason to play Thoughtseize and Extirpate), or something like this (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20032) or the list at the bottom of this post, which are supposed to be UGr "Fish", but, well... That's not really Fish. It does have a lot of interesting synergies in it, and I'd suggest trying it if you're seriously seeing that many manabases that can't handle any disruption, and if you're really that keen on Back to Basics, the manabase is a bit more friendly to it (or Blood Moon/ Magus of the Moon).

Creatures: 15
Looter il-kor x4
Wild Mongrel x4
Tarmogoyf x4
Wonder x3

Instants: 16
Daze x4
FoW x4
Brainstorm x4
Stifle x4

Sorceries: 3
Deep Anal x3

Enchantments: 3
Rancor x3

Lands: 19
Wasteland x4
Wooded Foothills x2
Flooded Strand x2
Polluted Delta x2
Tropical Island x3
Volcanic Island x3
Island x2
Forest x1

4x Empty. Could be Threads (I've never liked it, personally), Pyroblasts, Lightning Bolts, Needles, Repeal. Repeals look the strongest, though.

*Sorry for the off-topic list.

Shugyosha

10-10-2008, 03:20 AM

Bad plan. Really bad plan. Considering that the typical threshold manabase looks like this:

No it isn't (http://www.trader-online.de/turniere/Decks/2008-09-T15.html) (look at the 2nd place; the deck made top8 more than once). It's just a bad plan in a deck that plays Stifle/Waste and it fits white better because you can also board Teeg against Landstill.

The non-Waste base of every Threshold deck but 4/5c can be build to contain 3-4 basics and 8-10 fetches. 2-3 constant mana sources is all you need with this deck.

Valdez

10-10-2008, 04:31 AM

i worked the list out, in expectation of a loam/landstill meta, based on a list of "der_imaginäre_freund".

nqg/w is also a special case, cuz you're able to fetch every basic and still every dual with any fetchland.
nqg/b has by far the worrst manabase for b2b in that regard, since we don't have any b/g or u/g fetchlands.

raharu

10-10-2008, 03:57 PM

*Facepalm* That's a list that BattleToadz was working with a while back before Internet Hate Machine had 5c threshold built. I can't believe that I forgot about that, but it still stands that it's a miserable idea in UGb.

Adan

10-11-2008, 12:20 AM

No it isn't (http://www.trader-online.de/turniere/Decks/2008-09-T15.html) (look at the 2nd place; the deck made top8 more than once). It's just a bad plan in a deck that plays Stifle/Waste and it fits white better because you can also board Teeg against Landstill.

And that is why it IS bad. That was always the problem of UGb Threshold, it might be consistent, but the manabase sucks since you don't have access to the Basic Forest which might be essential in certain metagames. Running Windswept Heaths/Wooded Foothills would ruin the manabase and make it inconsistent.

Ok, I never played non-Island lands in Threshold, but that's why I am not running Back to Basics. Since no one plays Loam anymore (Eternal Garden/42Lands) I don't find it necessary. It requires a lot of setup as well.
I prefer to maintain the manabase with cardquality and Pithing Needle.

Holiday

11-03-2008, 10:41 AM

Has there ever been discussion about including Hymn to Tourach? With the BB casting cost the manabase would probably need to be altered and I am not sure if it is feasible. Thoughts?

Adan

11-03-2008, 11:57 AM

Has there ever been discussion about including Hymn to Tourach? With the BB casting cost the manabase would probably need to be altered and I am not sure if it is feasible. Thoughts?

Simply "No"? What sense should it make?

Poesjuh

11-05-2008, 09:18 AM

// Lands
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [b] Tropical Island
1 [PT] Forest (1)
1 [APL] Island (3)
2 [b] Underground Sea
1 [IA] Plains (1)
2 [u] Tundra

// Creatures
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [RAV] Dark Confidant

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [LRW] Ponder
3 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [AT] Swords to Plowshares
2 [LRW] Oblivion Ring

How would a list like this (4C) look like without Counterbalance? I really don't like that card, it's just to lame for me since I won't be playing any tournaments I think, just with friends. I'd like to play 4C because I generally like StP and Mystic Enforcer, but also want to include Dark Confidant en Thoughtseize. Please consider that I'm an absolute newbie to legacy and I've never played a Thresh deck before, I'm just a bit stubborn with some things. That's why I don't want to play Counterbalance :P I'd like to play a deck that's a little more agressive.

I think that my list would look something like this:

// Lands, 18
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Windswept Heath
2 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Plains
2 Tundra
(copied from above as you can see, possible that this will change a little)

// Creatures, 13
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
1 Mystic Enforcer

// Spells, 28
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Thoughtseize
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Vindicate

1 slot left ^^ I think for maybe an extra land, Enforcer, or some random tech.

Would this be any good?

Brushwagg

11-05-2008, 09:37 PM

I can say I don't like the mana base at all. It's nice that you play around Moon effects and Wastelands, but it looks like you could get color screwed easy.

List without Counterbalance.

4x Delta
2x Strand
4x Trop
3x Sea
2-3x Tundra
1-2x Island
( This is close to what I would run in 4color). But it gets wrecked by a resolved Moon. Probably needs some tweaks.

4x Goose
4x Goyf
3x Bob
1x Mystic?

4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
3x Predict

4x Force
3x Daze
3x Spellsnare/Counterspell
4x Thoughtseize
4x STP
2x Engineered Explosives.

SB: This is what I would run in my meta.
3x Krosan Grip
3x BEB
3x Crypt
3x Stifle
1x E.E.
2x Echoing Truth/Rushing RIver/Snapback (For Moons)

@Top: There is really no reason to run Top without Counterbalnce. You have Brainstorm and Ponder to fix your draws.

@Vindicate: Not sure about this. It costs 3 and it needs two off colors. So..

Poesjuh

11-06-2008, 04:26 AM

Oke, thx, that lookes pretty solid :) Which card is better, Predict or Serum Visions?

Elf_Ascetic

11-06-2008, 05:03 AM

Oke, thx, that lookes pretty solid :) Which card is better, Predict or Serum Visions?

Predict.

raharu

11-06-2008, 07:39 AM

Predict.
But if you want to play another cantrip, there's always Portent :3

Poesjuh

11-06-2008, 08:43 AM

I was just wondering if I should play Portent or S. Visions, hence the question.

edit: I meant Predict vs S. Visions obviously. However Portent is also a good alternative offcourse :)

Brushwagg

11-06-2008, 11:54 AM

Well I like something that draws extra cards outside of Bob. Since he usally draws alot of hate. Portent and Serum Visions only cantrip and you can find yourself with a empty hand alot of the time. Hell that happens even with Predict in the deck.

Shriekmaw

11-06-2008, 12:46 PM

I was just wondering if I should play Portent or S. Visions, hence the question.

If you are looking for a third cantrip outside of brainstorm and ponder, I would have to go with portent since it lets you dig a lot deeper in the deck than predict. I always believed that card quality outweights card quantity. This is especially true in threshold.

I still prefer the canadian version of the deck, but this would be my second choice. I love the fact that top/counterbalance have been cut in some lists. I believe the deck gets a lot stronger by not including those cards.

Elf_Ascetic

11-07-2008, 04:12 PM

I believe the deck gets a lot stronger by not including those cards.

Come on, if you state something like that, at least explain WHY you think that.

Poesjuh

11-07-2008, 05:54 PM

I have no idea what list is stronger, I just personally don't want to play counter-top, looks to boring to me. Given the fact that I only play casual with friends it doesn't really bother me :)

undone

12-12-2008, 11:59 AM

Shriekmaw

12-12-2008, 01:33 PM

Isnt dark confidant needed as a 4 of? It seems like this deck is so much worse without one in play.

Is smother or ghastly demise better as the removal spell?

Why are some lists cutting the 4th daze?

I guess it depends on what version of UGb threshold you are playing. I really like the tempo thresh version that plays snuff out as your removal. I like the card a lot better than either smother or ghastly demise.

I don't really like Dark Confidant. I understand the card advantage he provides, but I think the loss of life is something to consider. You are already playing fetches and thoughtseize, along with snuff out which I love.

b4r0n

12-12-2008, 02:40 PM

I guess it depends on what version of UGb threshold you are playing. I really like the tempo thresh version that plays snuff out as your removal.

Is Ugb Tempo Thresh really any better than Team America? Or is Team America what you're referring to?

Adan

12-12-2008, 05:28 PM

Shriekmaw

12-14-2008, 09:56 PM

I think he's referring to this (very terrible) list:

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=21766

Not playing Dark Confidant is like... SRSLY WTF. Well, Snuff Out has got a huge anti-synergy with Dark Confidant, maybe that is the reason why he's not playing Dark Confidant, but Dark Confidant is just too good.

While the red variant only played 8 creatures (according to goobafish because no other creature would have fit into the concept), Black has got Dark Confidant which fits right into the concept of the deck.

I don't think the Black Tempo list is terrible. I think it has a lot of answers that the red version lacked. A lot of people don't like all the life loss, but Carl thought thoughtseize was pretty amazing and snuff out was a good removal spell for the deck.

The only difference I would make is the + 1 ponder for a -1 counterspell.

Adan

12-15-2008, 03:26 AM

I don't think the Black Tempo list is terrible. I think it has a lot of answers that the red version lacked. A lot of people don't like all the life loss, but Carl thought thoughtseize was pretty amazing and snuff out was a good removal spell for the deck.

The only difference I would make is the + 1 ponder for a -1 counterspell.

But... DARK CONFIDANT?! WHERE THEY AT?! They are just too good not to play. Ayo, it doesn't even need so much rational thinking to figure that one out.

Shriekmaw

12-15-2008, 08:56 AM

But... DARK CONFIDANT?! WHERE THEY AT?! They are just too good not to play. Ayo, it doesn't even need so much rational thinking to figure that one out.

Dark Confidant is overrated and is not needed in a deck like tempo thresh. Dark Confidant would be better suited in the traditional threshold deck.

Ch@os

12-15-2008, 09:49 AM

Dark Confidant is overrated and is not needed in a deck like tempo thresh. Dark Confidant would be better suited in the traditional threshold deck.

:rolleyes: erm ok so go! an play Team America or something else.
A resolved ÊL Confidante is pure cardadvantage.

Shriekmaw

12-15-2008, 10:26 AM

:rolleyes: erm ok so go! an play Team America or something else.
A resolved ÊL Confidante is pure cardadvantage.

I was strickly talking about the tempo thresh deck with the black splash. Tempo Thresh is not about card advantage. If you want card advantage then go play the more traditional threshold build with the black splash.

Then you can play cards like Dark Confidant and Top/Counterbalance. I think you don't understand the goal of tempo thresh that I'm referring to.

Adan

12-15-2008, 12:06 PM

I was strickly talking about the tempo thresh deck with the black splash. Tempo Thresh is not about card advantage. If you want card advantage then go play the more traditional threshold build with the black splash.

Then you can play cards like Dark Confidant and Top/Counterbalance. I think you don't understand the goal of tempo thresh that I'm referring to.

That is nonsense. I don't exactly know which points I shall pick up first, but I will try to find a good beginning.

First of all, we should balance which role a certain card plays within the deck. In order to ensure that, we have to take a look at the deck's concept as whole.

Now since every single tempo-orientes Threshold list sporting a black splash plays Dark Confidant and none of them is playing Counterspell, we could make a compairison:

Which role does Dark Confidant play? And what is Counterspells duty?

In which way do these cards support tempo-gaming?

Dark Confidant clearly supports tempogaming as he - assuming he does not get handled by the opponent - is a weenie and able to apply pressure, but of course the most important thing is that he supplies you with resources consistently, ensuring that you don't go out of gas and rising the odds of having more disruption-spells to keep the opponent down.
In combination with the cantrips, you will most likely find what you need in every situation. To find removal to break through, to find more creatures to race the opponent, to find counterspells to defend your favorable position and so on. The cardadvantage is gamebreaking in certain matchups, especially the mirrormatch.

So in which situations is Counterspell better? It must be the situations where you are just sitting there with 0 creatures (because we only play 8, aight?) and the opponent is close to sticking his foot into your face by playing threats after threats.
We can of course assume that you can simply counter them since you are playing 16 counterspells, but why not simply play Dark Confidant, dig for answer and out-draw your opponent from then on?

It seems quite idiotic that you are implying that I have failed to understand the concept of "Tempo Thresh" (I have played UGb Tempo Thresh myself, but not on tournaments so far), but at the same time, you are defending a highly reactive list with 16 Counterspells.

Those counterspells are only playing a tempo-role when you already have a threat and a better boardposition than the opponent. But Dark Confidant can reverse boardpositions by himself.

Shugyosha

12-15-2008, 12:18 PM

But Dark Confidant fixes that problem as he can apply pressure by himself and provide a constant stream of cards which is crucial to maintain the streak of disrupting the opponent with Stifle-Spell Snare and Wastelands and having more creatures to race aggrodecks and whatsoever.

Why is a constant stream of (extra)cards crucial? Red Tempo Threshold plays only BStorm and Ponder (and rarely the Ice side) and is an extremely powerful deck. You talk like Confidant is OMFG your deck needs to play it or you loose. That applies to Tarmogoyf, not to Confidant.

Tempo Threshold wants mana efficiency and Snuff out is the most manaefficient hard removal you can get for a 1:1 exchange.
I think, its a better game plan to kill your opponent's creatures or discard them before they can hit play and get through with one 3+ power beater as long as they are recovering.

The problem I have with Dillahey's (sp?) list is a different one. It seems to really bad against red beatdown (RGw Goyfsligh comes to mind). Guess its not a factor in his meta.

Adan

12-15-2008, 12:39 PM

Why is a constant stream of (extra)cards crucial? Red Tempo Threshold plays only BStorm and Ponder (and rarely the Ice side) and is an extremely powerful deck. You talk like Confidant is OMFG your deck needs to play it or you loose. That applies to Tarmogoyf, not to Confidant.

But after all, tempo Thresh gives up a bit of it's consistency in order to gain the possibility to play more aggressively. But the risk of running out of gas is still present.
Dark Confidant ensure that you don't run out of gas, so why play a suboptimal build when you can play a list which has got it's bugs fixed?

Shriekmaw

12-15-2008, 01:34 PM

But after all, tempo Thresh gives up a bit of it's consistency in order to gain the possibility to play more aggressively. But the risk of running out of gas is still present.
Dark Confidant ensure that you don't run out of gas, so why play a suboptimal build when you can play a list which has got it's bugs fixed?

If you play dark confidant in temp thresh, then you have to change the removal spell you are playing. There is no way you can play snuff out in the deck with dark confidant, you would probably either have to go with ghastly demise or smother.

I found counterspells to be very needed in the metagame I play in b/c there are a lot of times where I want a hard counter other than force in the deck. There were situations where fire/ice (the card cut for counterspell) was better, but counterspell seemed to help the deck more from our playtesting here in Syracuse.

b4r0n

12-15-2008, 06:31 PM

Shugyosha

12-16-2008, 09:08 AM

If you're running Snuff Outs and no Confidants in Ugb Thresh, you start to play a list that's remarkably similar to Team America. So again, how is Ugb Tempo Thresh any better than Team America? Nimble Mongoose just seems straight up worse than Tombstalker, and the rest of the deck is identical. I don't see how you can rationalize Ugb Tempo Thresh as a viable deck any more.

It's because you win so insanely many games on the back of Mongooses shroud effect. It is really that simple, especially when the decks don't run Balance to protect your creatures.

undone

12-16-2008, 09:20 AM

Try killing landstill with tombstalker, oh wait thier mana base doesnt suck and they have a kajillion removal spells. Goose nullifies a couples of those removal spells while stalker and goyf are like guys with gigantic stickers on thier heads "KEEL ME!"

Tombstalker is better overall but in the matchups that you already win goose is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tombstalker in bad matchups..

from Cairo

12-16-2008, 01:19 PM

Try killing landstill with tombstalker, oh wait thier mana base doesnt suck and they have a kajillion removal spells. Goose nullifies a couples of those removal spells...

How do you figure?

Landstill has Swords to Plowshares that hits Tombstalker. Landstill has Mishra's Factory that trades or in multiples eats Geese.

Their other removal is going to consist of either Pernicious Deed or Wrath of God and will likely be complemented by some number of Engineered Explosives. Wrath hits Goose and Tombstalker indiscriminately. But last I checked Deed for 8 isn't to common when the Tombstalker player is playing an LD package of Stifle, Sinkhole, and Wasteland. And Engineered Explosives is just not touching Tombstalker period.

Assuming a build is running 4 Swords, 2-3 Deed/Wrath, 2-3 EE, even in the case of Wrath they have to count on their 4 Swords and 2-3 Wrath to answer 4 opposing Tombstalkers. With the same set up against Geese they have 6 sweeper answers in addition to 4 Factories.

In my experience a resolved Tombstalker is likely a more difficult threat to answer than a Nimble Mongoose.

And that's just looking at the 2 creatures in the one sample match up you're talking about, which is probably one of the best matchs for Nimble Mongoose and it still is worse than Tombstalker. When comparing the two against any agro deck, or versus another Thresh deck, or combo, clearly a 5/5 flyer for 2 is vastly superior to a 3/3 ground pounder.

How is Ugb Tempo Thresh any better than Team America? Nimble Mongoose just seems straight up worse than Tombstalker, and the rest of the deck is identical. I don't see how you can rationalize Ugb Tempo Thresh as a viable deck any more.

It isn't any better, it's worse; I'd agree.

risethehandsofreason

12-16-2008, 05:53 PM

For the last year and a half or so, I have been happy and successful with a traditional UGb Threshold list, running 2 Ghastly Demise and 2 Smother as my removal. Recently, however, I have had more and more trouble making those spells work. Because I am seeing Tomstalker more and more (or improbable and unfortunate situations like staring down an Exalted Angel and a Tormod's Crypt with a Ghastly Demise in hand), I have to consider my options other than countermagic.

Being a traditional player, I immediately jump to the conclusion that I should add white for Swords to Plowshares. I have seen 4 and 5-color Threshold lists work in the past, but I hate to destablize the manabase. So, is it worth adding white to solve the problem or do I suck it up and lose now and then, or suck it up and run something else like bounce spells?

I intend to test the 4-color variant (with 18 lands, rather than 17, as in my UBg list) a bit more and I'll try to answer those questions, but if any of you have done the work for me, I would appreciate some guidance. Thanks.

Ch@os

12-16-2008, 06:16 PM

Ye maybe Vindicate? And some Swords.
Is space for those cards and can the manabse take it?

darkalucard

12-16-2008, 08:52 PM

Diabolic Edict is better than you think. Most decks are only playing like 8 creatures anyways. It shouldn't ever let you down like the other black cards do. I would play some combination of Edict/Smother for removal. I never liked Ghastly Demise and if you want to kill a turn one lackey I'd use Snuff Out but you might have to cut Bob for that.

2 Smother / 2 Diabolic Edict

The white splash isn't worth it.

risethehandsofreason

12-17-2008, 05:37 PM

@ darkalucard: I failed to see the obvious. In virtually every situation when I wanted something like Swords, Diabolic Edict would have worked just as well (better, of course, considering the life gain). Thanks for the suggestion. I will certainly test that before I go changing the manabase.

Cenarius

12-18-2008, 05:56 PM

"The white splash isn't worth it."

I totally disagree on you. Swords to plowshares is thé best removal card in legacy. All other posibillities like: Smother/Ghastly Demise/diabolic edict all have a drawback, which is horrible!

Team Nijmegen made a 4c threshold list, which is superb at our (Dutch) Metagame for a tournament of 30-40 people:

Creatures (10):
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Jotun grunt

Removal (6):
4 Swords to plowshares
2 Vindicate

Cantrips (8):
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

CB/Top (7):
4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's divining top

Disruption (4):
4 Thoughtseize

Counters (7):
4 Force of Will
3 Daze

Lands (18):
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains

Sideboard contains the following (metagame) cards:

4 leyline of the void (Ichorid stays unbeatable)
3 Krosan grip (You play green, best card in your sb)
3 Engineered explosives (Mirror, EtW, etc. etc.)
2 Umezawa's Jitte (Goblins is really nasty)
4 Hydroblast (Blood moon stays horrible

Ofcourse every card in Sb can be discussed, however in our metagame these Sideboard cards are vital of passing through the early rounds.

b4r0n

12-19-2008, 10:36 AM

That's actually a really cool list, especially the manabase. However, the fundamental problem with Ugbw Thresh lies in the fact that you need at least 3 lands in play in order to have access to all your colors. Although having 3 different basics is sweet, it makes it even more difficult to get access to all your colors. Has that been a problem for you?

Ch@os

12-19-2008, 11:12 AM

Ive playing this last weekend instead of basics with offcolor duals like Bayou and Scrubland.

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Island

That fixed the 3land problem to have acess to all colors.
You loose to Bloodmoon preboard anyway if you dont counter it or catch it with Seize.

Is grunt really needed, seems like a Sb card to me, the shroud goose should be MB.

b4r0n

12-19-2008, 11:31 AM

That does fix the 3 land problem, but it makes you more susceptible to Wastes and Moon effects. If that's a gamble you want to take, then go for it.

Also, if you're splashing for white, you definitely want Mystic Enforcer. I'd probably run that instead of Grunt. Mongoose has been really underwhelming for a while now, and especially since people started running 12/12 tramplers and 5/5 fliers instead of 1/1 goblins. Confidant at least draws you cards.

Cenarius

12-19-2008, 12:10 PM

"Also, if you're splashing for white, you definitely want Mystic Enforcer."

I disagree on this. Threshold needs creatures with a low CC, high P/T. This is because the deck now runs CB/top, which is mana intensive. Casting a Mystic Enforcer simply lets you loose control, because in most of the cases you won't have any mana open for CB/top aswell. Mystic Enforcer is just too expensive, you don't wanna play it. Trust me.

"Has that been a problem for you?"

3 basics cán cause problems, however they are not as hugh as resolving a bloodmoon and loose. Playing 3 basics means that a turn 2 Counterbalance is less frequent, however other things such as Confidant or Goyf is good enough aswell. 3 basics are vital in order to survive all the manabase disruption decks. The two off-color basics are important, because casting a vindicate on blood moon/crucible wins you the game.

"Is grunt really needed, seems like a Sb card to me, the shroud goose should be MB."

Grunt ís really needed in this deck. As you can see: Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant and Jotun grunt all have a different color. This makes you less vulnerable for extirpate's on tropical/tundra/underground sea. This ofcourse is not the only reason for playing Jotun Grunt. Grunt has all the qualities I said above: Low CC, high P/T. Since you don't want to topdeck it in early game, 2 Jotun Grunts should be the max. Jotun Grunt is also amazing against Loam deck's, Ichorid etc. Another important thing about Jotun Grunt: It can kill Tarmogoyf's!
So why not play Nimble Mongoose? It needs only G to cast, has shroud and is 3/3. Well the reason for that is: 3/3 is just too small. In this metagame creatures like Dreadnought's, Tombstalker's, Terravore's, Countryside Crusher's and Goyf's are probably the most common creatures in our metagame. Playing Grunt enables you to deal with some of the creatures. Nimble Mongoose is just not good enough anymore, it's a shame.

Jaiminho

12-19-2008, 01:16 PM

I disagree on this. Threshold needs creatures with a low CC, high P/T. This is because the deck now runs CB/top, which is mana intensive. Casting a Mystic Enforcer simply lets you loose control, because in most of the cases you won't have any mana open for CB/top aswell. Mystic Enforcer is just too expensive, you don't wanna play it. Trust me.

Setting Countertop for the next turn requires only a look at the top 3 at EOT. When you have enough safety, given hand and top card, you can simply cast Enforcer with all your mana available, providing you are able to defend yourself from Daze (CB @ 2), then from stuff like STP (tap Top, CB @ 1). Given that the board situation is clear (no Deed, no EE @ 4), Enforcer will always be able to land when you have Countertop.

Cenarius

12-19-2008, 02:39 PM

Your right on that. Ofcourse you can play Mystic Enforcer when you have 4 mana, knowing the top 3 cards of your deck. Still, I don't encourage people to play a Mystic Enforcer in the 4c Threshold list.
Jotun Grunt is awsome at some Matchup's. The fact that Jotun Grunt only cost 2 mana and an ability that kicks ass is worthwile. Playing 2 Jotun Grunts enables you to play a creature with high P/T and still maintain control with Counterbalance.
What does a (Threshold) deck need more?

KillemallCFH

12-19-2008, 05:26 PM

Jotun Grunt is a 4/4 with no evasion, no built-in protection, who dies to himself. Mystic Enforcer is a 6/6 Flyer with an occasionally relevant protection. Obviously you don't just tap out to play him if you have CB/Top on the board. Mystic Enforcer ends games faster than any threat Thresh can play. If you're playing white, there is no reason not to run him.

Cenarius

12-20-2008, 05:44 AM

I think you totally miss the point here. U do mention that Jotun Grunt is 4/4 with no evasion. Your right about that, but how many creatures have a toughness of */5 or a power of 5/*? (Hé, that’s Tombstalker.)
The deck however plays 6 potential removal cards and 4 thoughtseize. It can easily protect its threads and take someone out before there are no cards in any graveyard.

Your second point is vague: “No built-in protection”. Does Tarmogoyf and Dark Confidant have built-in protection? Should we then ignore those cards and play Nimble Mongoose and Troll Ascetic because they all have shroud?

Your third point is correct. I cannot ignore the fact that Jotun Grunt dies on himself. That’s the reason the deck only plays 2 Jotun Grunt, because you don’t want to see it Early/Midgame. You forgot mentioning the fact that Jotun Grunt has an ability, that helps a lot against negative matchups.

The pro-black Mystic Enforcer is large, expensive and need another deck to be played (UGW). You need to play more cantrips in order to get threshold. Since Threshold plays CB/top it is harder to get Threshold, because the up to date lists play more permanents than before. Having pro-black is not really an argument for playing the card. Burn, Swords to plowshares, Shackles(,deeds) are some removal cards that are played frequently.
I have two questions for you: Do you play Threshold? At what turn did you have 6 lands, CB/top and a Mystic Enforcer in your hand?

I will propose the card to our team and discuss about it.

b4r0n

12-20-2008, 05:22 PM

I think you totally miss the point here. U do mention that Jotun Grunt is 4/4 with no evasion. Your right about that, but how many creatures have a toughness of */5 or a power of 5/*? (Hé, that’s Tombstalker.)

Point is, Grunt can be chumped all day long. Enforcer has evasion, which lets it win the game quickly.

Your third point is correct. I cannot ignore the fact that Jotun Grunt dies on himself. That’s the reason the deck only plays 2 Jotun Grunt, because you don’t want to see it Early/Midgame. You forgot mentioning the fact that Jotun Grunt has an ability, that helps a lot against negative matchups.

The same can be said for Mystic Enforcer. You want it in the mid- or late-game when the ground is locked up with Goyfs and whatnot. Mystic Enforcer also has an ability that helps a lot against negative matchups (TA, Survival, Eva Green, etc.).

The pro-black Mystic Enforcer is large, expensive and need another deck to be played (UGW). You need to play more cantrips in order to get threshold. Since Threshold plays CB/top it is harder to get Threshold, because the up to date lists play more permanents than before. Having pro-black is not really an argument for playing the card. Burn, Swords to plowshares, Shackles(,deeds) are some removal cards that are played frequently.

There's really not much difference between Ugbw and Ugw Thresh other than Thoughtseize vs. 4 random slots. So I don't really understand how you can dismiss Enforcer when he's been shown to be extremely effective in a very similar deck. It's also not really that difficult to get Threshold by the point you have 4 lands in play.

Elf_Ascetic

12-20-2008, 06:02 PM

I'm another member of Team Nijmegen, playing Threshold since the first Legacy GP, and developer of our 4C list.

There's really not much difference between Ugbw and Ugw Thresh other than Thoughtseize vs. 4 random slots. So I don't really understand how you can dismiss Enforcer when he's been shown to be extremely effective in a very similar deck. It's also not really that difficult to get Threshold by the point you have 4 lands in play.

White Thresh needs the Enforcer to win. This deck can win on the cardadvantage created by Dark Confidant. Drawing extra cards equals drawing extra removal, so the Grunts are much more likely to come through. Mystic is good and I love to play it, but the Grunts are better. 2 mana is a big deal. When you're cut out of green by say, extirpate on tropical, you can still win easily, thanks to Grunt. The Grunt includes anwsers agaist severe landdestruction, which is highly present, thanks to Team America. He puts fetchable lands on the bottom of your deck. I know, enforcer is good, but this deck with 6 removal has no problem with a creature stalemate.

Running Enforcer for CB is useless. When you find it with Top, you mostly just want to play it.

b4r0n

12-20-2008, 07:30 PM

White Thresh needs the Enforcer to win. This deck can win on the cardadvantage created by Dark Confidant. Drawing extra cards equals drawing extra removal, so the Grunts are much more likely to come through. Mystic is good and I love to play it, but the Grunts are better. 2 mana is a big deal.

I disagree. Just because Confidant is drawing you more cards doesn't mean that you should play a sub-optimal finisher. Grunt is alright, but Enforcer is much better. The 2 mana difference shouldn't really matter by the time you want to drop Enforcer. I'd rather have the stronger card and pay slightly more.

When you're cut out of green by say, extirpate on tropical, you can still win easily, thanks to Grunt. The Grunt includes anwsers agaist severe landdestruction, which is highly present, thanks to Team America. He puts fetchable lands on the bottom of your deck. I know, enforcer is good, but this deck with 6 removal has no problem with a creature stalemate.

I mean, if Extirpate on Trop is a legitimate threat in the metagame that you play in, then Grunt is a slightly more defensible option. However, even against Team America, I think I'd much rather have an Enforcer than a Grunt. Enforcer is such a bomb, and basically wins the game for you if it hits play. Again, Grunt is alright, but certainly not in the same league.

Cenarius

12-21-2008, 05:03 AM

b4r0n

12-21-2008, 03:56 PM

Why do you think this Threshold has a bad matchup against Survival (lol?), TA and Eva green? Ok, if the last two decks go berserk it is hard for every deck, but let's say they go normal. Turn 1 Thoughtseize, Turn 2 Dark Confidant is hard to overcome for them, since they cannot remove Dark Confidant.

All of those decks have really good disruption and good removal. Survival has recursion, which is difficult for Thresh to deal with. TA and Eva Green attack your manabase, attack your hand, and can either answer your CB or just ignore it.

Are you suggesting that all of those are good matchups?

Another thing: Why do you think Mystic Enforcer is good against Eva Green and Team America if they attack my manabase? How can I ever get 5 mana against such a deck?
Don't you think Jotun Grunt is good against that Matchup aswell? Each Graveyard will be filled quite rapidly and above all Jotun Grunt is thé only card that hurts both creatures of my opponent by emptying their Graveyard.

Enforcer can't be removed by either of those decks, so it completely turns the game around when it hits play. It's obviously easier to resolve Enforcer against Eva Green since you a) don't need to worry about countermagic and b) can sit on fetches to dodge their land destruction. It's more difficult to resolve Enforcer against TA, but that matchup generally turns out one of two ways: a) you lose quickly to a Goyf/Stalker or b) you don't lose quickly and stabilize. Grunt is okay against an early Goyf, but it doesn't really stop Tombstalker too well. Also, once you enter the late game, it's not so great.

Basically, I don't think that Grunt really does enough. It's decent, but I'd rather have Enforcer.

Adan

12-21-2008, 04:59 PM

TA and Eva Green attack your manabase, attack your hand, and can either answer your CB or just ignore it.

Counterbalance wins against these. The only spells they can resolve then are Tombstalker and Snuff Out. Tombstalker should be countered or handled by StoP and Snuff Out can actually be ignored. Oh wait, you don't play Nimble Mongoose.

Cenarius

12-21-2008, 08:31 PM

"Counterbalance wins against these. The only spells they can resolve then are Tombstalker and Snuff Out. Tombstalker should be countered or handled by StoP and Snuff Out can actually be ignored. Oh wait, you don't play Nimble Mongoose."

Snuff Out does not matter, since our deck consists of 4 Dark Confidant. Cardadvantage is probably the most important thing in that game, so this means that Counterbalance does win games against TA/Eva Green, your right about that. I would say that Eva Green ís a slightly positive matchup (60%). I would say that TA is neither positive or negative, it just depends on your opponent.
Because I cannot convince you of playing Jotun Grunt instead of Mystic Enforcer, after given a dozen arguments, I advise u to test the list we have. Maybe then you are convinced of Jotun Grunt.

b4r0n

12-21-2008, 11:48 PM

Counterbalance wins against these. The only spells they can resolve then are Tombstalker and Snuff Out. Tombstalker should be countered or handled by StoP and Snuff Out can actually be ignored. Oh wait, you don't play Nimble Mongoose.

Yeah, Counterbalance is pretty strong. However, Tombstalker and Snuff Out are still legitimate concerns.

I still don't think that Nimble Mongoose is a significant threat any more. Especially against TA, it's a 3/3 in a world of 4/5s and 5/5s, and shroud is basically irrelevant if you're getting beat down by fatter dudes.

Because I cannot convince you of playing Jotun Grunt instead of Mystic Enforcer, after given a dozen arguments, I advise u to test the list we have. Maybe then you are convinced of Jotun Grunt.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I think we just have different philosophies with regards to Threshold.

Jaiminho

12-22-2008, 12:37 AM

I still don't think that Nimble Mongoose is a significant threat any more. Especially against TA, it's a 3/3 in a world of 4/5s and 5/5s, and shroud is basically irrelevant if you're getting beat down by fatter dudes.

Mongoose is very good when you can get rid of the creatures on the other side of the board, because your opponent won't be able to get rid of him. The main issue here is that, in order to deal with Tombstalker, you can't rely on Snuff Out, Ghastly Demise or Smother to help you seal the deal. You must run Edict (not nearly as good against Eva than against TA) or even Putrefy (equally good against both).

Cenarius

12-22-2008, 05:56 AM

B4r0n, you keep falling back on the same argument. There's no way I can convince you of playing Jotun Grunt with arguments. I cannot believe you don't want to test the Jotun Grunt, because your intuition (not the card) says that Mystic Enforcer is better. How can you be sure of that without testing?
Shouldn't this forum include people that actually tests the lists provided or are all, or 95% of the people just saying things, what's suppose to be the best for this (and many other) deck(s) without testing?

Tombstalker and Snuff Out are no problem for this deck, since Dark Confidant gives you a lot of Cardadvantage. It will give you (more) cards like swords to plowshares, vindicates and more creatures. Maintaining Dark Confidant alive is crucial.

Elf_Ascetic

12-22-2008, 08:35 AM

All of those decks have really good disruption and good removal. Survival has recursion, which is difficult for Thresh to deal with. TA and Eva Green attack your manabase, attack your hand, and can either answer your CB or just ignore it.

Are you suggesting that all of those are good matchups?

TA and Eva Green is ansewered.

I've tested recently against a solid Wel-Sur build, 12-2 for Threshold. The 3 or 4C Survival with Deed is better against us, but 40-60 (Thresh-Survival) tops.

Enforcer is no answer anymore against Eva Green and TA postboard, since they pack diabolic edicts.

Cenarius has handeld every other point I've seen in this last discussion, and I can only state that you should test it. In the meanwhile, we'll be testing one or two Enforcers in our decklist.

Muppet86

12-22-2008, 11:35 AM

I agree with Elf_Ascetic and Cenarius about the mystif enforcer/Jotun Grunt issue. As a member of Team Nijmegen I also run this list, and find it brilliant to play.

On the subject of a mystic enforcer. I agree with you that, when you play is PB is is a great creature with a good ability. Your opponent will have a difficult time getting rid of it. But if we look when we would like to play grunt against enforcer we get the following;

Against Loam;
-I would favour the grunt. It will remove annyoing cards in the grave yard and it can stay alive for a long time hence it's loam we're playing against. If you would play a mystic it will be to late in the game for it to have any effect. Your opponent will have or a terravore of a CC hitting you. Mystic enforcer is to slow in this matchup.

Combo/storm decks;
Against Solidarity Grunt is a thousand time more usefull than a mystic enforcer. Against Ichorid/TES/ANT is doesn;t really matter cause both are to slow in that match up.

Against MUC;
MUC runs B2B-->so getting 4 lands untapped late game can be difficult. Grunt can be usefull getting more counters and fetchlands in your deck so you can do something against a b2b. Mystic enforcer again is to slow.

Against TA/EVA-Green/WelderSurvival;
My teammembers already discussed these match-ups.

Against Landstill,
Again, removing stuff from a graveyard (Life from Loam anyone??) is a huge advantage against it.

This is why i play grunt instead of mystic enforcers. I'll propably will test enforcer a couple of matches, if it is any better than a grunt. But it doesn't change the fact that the ability of grunt is brilliant in our Meta game. O, and a nimble mongoose is out of the question. It's to slow and to small to have any effect late game.

Changing the question Grunt/enforcer.

Do you guy's prefere Spell Snares or Thoughseizes in this deck. We have choses Thoughtseizes, because it makes your matchup better against decks which have the upper hand against thres (Landstill, Goblins).

CroSS.24

01-01-2009, 07:24 PM

Adan

01-02-2009, 03:33 AM

Hey everyone i just joined the source for the first time and i've been playing legacy for 2 years and using this site for alot of reference i was just looking for a little insight on my 4c Thresh list so here it is

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Jotun Grunt

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Hoofprints of the Stag
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
2 Island
1 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta

Its untested as of now i will probably play this list next wednesday

Such lists may work but I'm afraid they an't exactly be categorized as Threshold as they lack Nimble Mongoose.
The problem I see about your list (as well as I do about the list from Nijmengen) is that these lists lack the ability to apply early pressure (which they could with Nimble Mongoose, but Jotun Grunt sucks early and Goyf is then still in a rather fragile stadium).

Ok, Mongeese are 1/1 at that state, but at least they can't be disposed and will be 3/3 in about Turn 4 or something (that's what I always can manage, if not it means I have Counterbalance and Top, then it doesn't matter since I'll be winning at all...most likely).

Hoofprints are clunky.

After all I'd try the traditional UGb Threshold with a White Splash just for Swords to Plowshares. Though it makes the manabase fragile, it should boost the deck.

My list currently looks like this (it's also close to what Bardo posted in the Meandeck Open Top8 Thread):

// Lands
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [B] Underground Sea
4 [B] Tropical Island
1 [B] Island
2 [B] Tundra

// Creatures
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
1 [CST] Portent
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares

I had to found space for 2 Tundras because we only have 4 removal to support with it. More than 2 seem to be unnecessary as it won't harm you very much if Tundras get disposed by Wastelands.

16 Lands because the curve of this deck goes from 1 to 2. We don't have any single non-FoW spell going above CC2. I am sometimes driven to cut the lands down to 15, but with the 4th color now, 16 seem to be tight.
But in case 16 should turn out to be bullshit, you can still cut the Portent for the 17th land.
I still prefer Portent as that 5th Ponder thing because it's cool. Helps you to maintain the manabase, finding solutions against something, finding threats and so on. It does what a cantrip is supposed to do.

But I have to find space for the 7th Fetchland, I think 6 are kinda...shabby. Since we have 8 Black spells to support and 8 green spells, I think we can efford to run the 3/3 split of Tropical Island and Tundra. The result would be:

// Lands
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [B] Underground Sea
3 [B] Tropical Island
1 [B] Island
2 [B] Tundra

That's actually -1 Tropical Island, +1 Flooded Strand.

As for the sideboard: I have absolutely no clue at the moment since I haven't touched the deck for months (except for some random matched on MWS to test the above posted list a littlebit). I think the default stuff like Blasts, Graveyardhate, Extirpates should be fine.

But the matches on MWS are - like always - not significant for anything. I also don't remember any match except for that guy who was playing UWb Landstill Geoff Smelski-style with 4 Vindicates, but that guy was a terrible player and I beat him 2-1.

The other match was against klaus, but that was also pretty random as he plays like 4 StoPs, 4 Innocent Blood and 4 Diabolic Edict or something. I think I got him to 5 or 6 life.

Elf_Ascetic

01-03-2009, 10:46 PM

but Jotun Grunt sucks early and Goyf is then still in a rather fragile stadium).[

Ok, Mongeese are 1/1 at that state, but at least they can't be disposed and will be 3/3 in about Turn 4 or something (that's what I always can manage, if not it means I have Counterbalance and Top, then it doesn't matter since I'll be winning at all...most likely).

I agree on the cluckyness of Hoofprints, it isn't that great.

In turn 4, Jötun Grunt IS a threat (living 3-4 turns at least), and Tarmogoyf is 3/4 MINIMUM. I just don't see (after severe, very severe testing) why Nimble Mongoose is good anymore. I agree, a year ago, it was good. Nowadays, it's just too small, with all those tombstalkers, crushers, vores, and goyfs floating around. Ok, it's a clock if your opponents board is empty, and ok, it gives you a win vs. MUC, but two extra spells/grunts are much better in every other matchup.

Enigma

01-03-2009, 11:24 PM

Hi guys, I recently switched from dreadstill to BUGW ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh and finished 7th in a tournament today. I added the Teegs for UWb Landstill and ANT and it worked very well against UWb landstill with counterbalance / top.

// Lands
4 Tropical Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta

// Creatures
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant

// Spells
4 Ponder
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Counterbalance

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 4 Extirpate
SB: 4 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 4 Engineered Plague

I drawed against TA and lost to White stax, but made 1 or 2 mistakes + he had the Cotv at 1 on first turn on the three games when I had a hand full of 1 cc.

I pretty like the deck. It has a "not that bad" MU vs ANT and combo, CB, swords and Plague offers a good option vs aggro, and confidants are pretty nice against control.

PM

Jaiminho

01-03-2009, 11:53 PM

I agree on the cluckyness of Hoofprints, it isn't that great.

In turn 4, Jötun Grunt IS a threat (living 3-4 turns at least), and Tarmogoyf is 3/4 MINIMUM. I just don't see (after severe, very severe testing) why Nimble Mongoose is good anymore. I agree, a year ago, it was good. Nowadays, it's just too small, with all those tombstalkers, crushers, vores, and goyfs floating around. Ok, it's a clock if your opponents board is empty, and ok, it gives you a win vs. MUC, but two extra spells/grunts are much better in every other matchup.

You really need to be able to clear your opponent's board of big creatures or simply create an overwhelming advantage of untargettable creatures. This is how Mongoose wins games and I can understand why so many people fail to see this.

mackaber

01-04-2009, 05:35 AM

You really need to be able to clear your opponent's board of big creatures or simply create an overwhelming advantage of untargettable creatures. This is how Mongoose wins games and I can understand why so many people fail to see this.

I think UGB lacking swords is actually worst at handling Tombstalkers and thus Mongeese are just plain worse in this version of the dec.

Adan

01-04-2009, 09:45 AM

I think UGB lacking swords is actually worst at handling Tombstalkers and thus Mongeese are just plain worse in this version of the dec.

Confidants are better then?

Well, I still win tons of games due to the Mongeese' Shroud-effect and especially when you mention "Tombstalker", we immediately think of the TA matchup.

Well, first of all, we can handle Tombstalker since we have the white splash for Swords (which makes the manabase slightly worse and fragile, ok, but it's TA initial gameplan at all) and we can circumvent Snuff Outs by playing Geese and Confidants.

Thus we have - in compairison to the Nijmengen build - 8 untouchable creatures which TA can't handle. Confidant is also crucial as he will provide resources consequently which will most likely ruin TA's concept of keeping your resources low.

BUT you still have to apply pressure and multiple Confidants are suboptimal for that purpose as they have a small body and their lifeloss might also race yourself and bring your lifetotal in a critical state where Tombstalker could finish you quickly.

TA is another matchup which is won on the back of Mongoose's ability (at least this is true for UGw Threshold).

mackaber

01-04-2009, 10:22 AM

TA is another matchup which is won on the back of Mongoose's ability (at least this is true for UGw Threshold).

Maybe you should reread my quote. I was essentially saying the same thing.

Berzerked

01-04-2009, 12:02 PM

Even without white, you have Thoughtseize to answer him preemptively, and I personally play a couple of Putrefy, which kill him just fine (though they might be a little hard to cast when your manabase is under attack). But then again, Confidant is great as when he sticks he's there to stay and draws you into needed land.

Adan

01-04-2009, 01:13 PM

Maybe you should reread my quote. I was essentially saying the same thing.

Hm, I suck at English. Anyway, Nimble Mongoose 4 life, yo.

Enigma

01-06-2009, 09:12 AM

asdljas

01-06-2009, 04:39 PM

I'm pretty new to the deck, and would like to know what to side in / side out against aggro loam?

My list is just 7 post earlier. I might considere adding 3 BEB's, so the sb would be:
3x Extirpate (Would like to have 4, but don't know what tu cut)
3x Engineered Plague
3x Gaddock Teeg
3x BEB
3x Krosan Grip

Sure I want the Extirpates. Maybe the grips and the BEB's? But most of all, what would I cut for them?

Thanks,

PM

There are so many variations of the Aggro-loam deck that you first need to determine what cards your opponent is playing. If this is your sideboard, before you win or lose game one, take a look through his graveyard. One of the unfortunate side effects of Aggro-Loam's recurring card advantage engine is that they put a lot of cards in the graveyard by dredging life from the loam, thereby telegraphing their decklist. Here are some things to look for:

Seismic Assault
Solitary Confinement
Ratio of Countryside Crusher to Terravore
Burning Wish
Genesis

Extirpate is actually pretty horrible against Aggro-loam. In last year's extended PTQ, my opponent extirpated life from the loam in the mid game. I untapped, cycled some land to get Burning Wish, wished it back, cast it, and pitched my hand to Seismic Assault to kill him. I nearly laughed in his face, and would have, but I felt bad for him. So I pittied that fool instead.

The enchantments tell you whether or not you need K-Grip, especially the white one. If he's playing Crusher and Assault, BEB is pretty solid.

-Slayer.

Jaiminho

01-06-2009, 05:16 PM

Extirpate is actually pretty horrible against Aggro-loam. In last year's extended PTQ, my opponent extirpated life from the loam in the mid game. I untapped, cycled some land to get Burning Wish, wished it back, cast it, and pitched my hand to Seismic Assault to kill him. I nearly laughed in his face, and would have, but I felt bad for him. So I pittied that fool instead.

The enchantments tell you whether or not you need K-Grip, especially the white one. If he's playing Crusher and Assault, BEB is pretty solid.

Not when you can block them from resolving Wish, which is what you must do at all times. Resolving CB and keeping it @ 2 will not only counter Loam all the time, but won't allow Wish to resolve. If you can't do this, your BEBs and FOWs should be enough to deal with Wish. You simply don't Pate Loam and get away with it. If you want it to have any effects, have protection against Wish ready.

Cenarius

01-22-2009, 09:06 AM

I still believe that UGBW Threshold is one of the strongest list, despite the amount of Team America, Dreadstill, Wasteland's etc.
You don't want play suboptimal removal cards. You want Swords to Plowshares. You want Thoughtseize and Dark Confidant and you want Tarmogoyf. This deck contains all those cards.

The best creatures for Threshold are (what I believe to be):
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
and the second best for a deck like Threshold would probably be:
Xx Jotun Grunt
Xx Mongoose
Xx Mystic Enforcer
Xx Trygon Predator

Since I am not really fund of the Trygon Predator and think Mongoose is not good enough without cards like Predict, there is just Jotun Grunt and Mystic Enforcer left. Jotun Grunt gives you better matchup's against certain matchup's like Loam, Ichorid, Landstill etc. It can beat Goyf's and can remove cards in a graveyard so it will be unable to cast a Tombstalker. Mystic Enforcer has a CC of 4, which makes it harder to cast when an active CB is on board. It however give better matchup's against black removal decks, so both creatures contain ad's en disad's.
I'd rather play Jotun Grunt simply because of the 1W --> 4/4 and a usefull drawback.

Last sunday we had a tournament of 156 people. A friend of mine played the 4c Threshold list. He was not really fund of the Thoughtseize's and probably will replace them with Spell Snare's. What do you think of that? Our list then consists out of the following cards:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Jotun Grunt

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to plowshares

4 Ponder
2 Vindicate

4 Counterbalance

3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp

So before the change it was: -1 daze -3 spell snare +4 Thoughtseize. Does anyone else tested this list or have other results?

Maveric78f

01-22-2009, 09:51 AM

Before the change he was playing 19 blue cards, which is not much when you consider that 8 of them are cantrips and that you are going to play them quite early in the game. However, I think that Spell Snare and counterbalance are redundant. I also think that daze is poor in a non denial, non aggressive Ugb Thresh build. To finish, I think that 8 cantrips + 3 sensei's are too much cantripping. I would personnally make room for creatures among these ones: Kira (probably better than daze), Trygon (probably better than vindicate), Meddling Mage, Serendib efreet. I'm not sure you need a white splash actually...

Maveric78f

01-22-2009, 09:57 AM

It has a "not that bad" MU vs ANT and combo
You should have a very positive MU against ANT combo when you play 4*(counterbalance+FoW+Thoughtseize).

sauce

01-22-2009, 10:00 AM

in our meta, there is no aggro loam really, so jotun grunt would not even make it into the deck or board, if anything i rather just play leyline as its "free" and answers more decks right away as opposed to grunt.
im assuming jotun grunt is a house in aggro loam (europe) environment.

im kinda curious though, is mongoose really better than tombstalker? 3/3 shroud vs 5/5 flying.

you're basically telling your opponent by playing mongoose that his removal is all for your goyfs. i rather have 2 guys they can remove so they have to choose between goyf & tombstalker.

would you rather attack w/ a goyf/mongoose or with a goyf/tombstalker?

Omega

01-22-2009, 12:20 PM

The dilemna you are creating is a false dilemna
That said, yes Tombstalker is stronger than Mongoose. Youve said it, one is a 5/5 flying, the other one is 3/3 shroud.

Some decks can support Tombstalker, some cant. Would you rather play 4 tombstalker, 4 tarmogoyf in your UGB instead of mongoose and dark confidant? Would you rather play 4 tarmogoyf, 4 nimble mongoose, 4 dark confidant? (assuming no one here is suicidal enough to play dark confidant WITH tombstalker)

If you choose to play tombstalker and tarmogoyf and no goose/confidant, then why not just play TA which has proven to be a fairly good deck?

Every removal has this written on : This removal is to be used against tarmogoyf. If no tarmogoyf is in play, destroy another target creature. But seriously, i am happy everytime opponents fail to destroy mongoose because of its shroud. Its no longer the beat stick it used to be. But 2 goose kill a goyf. And when you have 2 goose, opponent can't attack anymore. So they help creating a standstlll .Your superior cantrip should be enough for you to find answers. Once the board is cleared, you can attack freely with the mongoose, that happen to be still in play because nothing destroy them (except mass removal)

ChrisTJs27

01-26-2009, 01:59 PM

I honestly can't conceive of replacing Dark Confidant in this deck. Even suggesting so doesn't make sense to me as this card is, in large part, single-handedly responsible for the deck's power.

It really seems to me that Tombstalker doesn't fit either. I don't believe it to be better than Tarmogoyf anyway.

How is 8 Cantrips + 3 Top to many?! You do understand how this deck works, correct?

I can see the removal of Daze. In fact, I'm considering it. Thing is, I'd want to have another blue two-cost card in it's place as I don't want to lower my blue-card count any.

I REALLY want Spell Snare. More over, I haven't been very impressed with Thoughtseize thus far. I think that it's proactive. But I never want to see it past turns 1-3. I'd rather top deck, well, anything else.

My current version, for the record, is basically Patrick Chapin's. Except I have 4 Counterbalance.

kingpete

01-27-2009, 05:19 PM

Is it better to blow up a Top or a Counterbalance with krosan grip?

Dissolution

01-27-2009, 07:14 PM

I would generally tend to say Counterbalance. If you kill the top, they still might have Brainstorm in hand to use, or just get lucky topdecks.
-T

Omega

01-27-2009, 08:54 PM

But in the late game, whoever has top active just win the game with superior card quality

But CB is indeed problematic. If you plan on playing spell, blow the CB. If you have nothing worthy in hand, i would go for the sensei

Robert

kingpete

02-01-2009, 10:25 AM

im trying to configure UGwb thresh for the GP Chicago environment. I play a lot of magic, but unfortunately only a small portion of that is legacy, so my experience is lacking. Sorry if i ask odd or "stupid" questions. Im thinking that Trygon Predator should see play, because i think Countertop will be a majority of the field and hes an absolute house in the mirror. Also, Jotun Grunt in some form should be played. He keeps Team America off of Tombstalker shennanigans, he wrecks Ichorid/Dredge, hes an effective beater, and in the mirror he keeps your opponent off threshold. He also seems good against any sort of Life From the Loam decks that might pop up. Ive been running as my creatures:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Nimble Mongoose

I am not changing the first two, but perhaps in the nimble mongoose slot running 2 Trygon Predators and 2 Jotun Grunts would be best?

Basically a Threshold deck with anti mirror tech is what im trying to accomplish! Any advice or comments are more than welcome!

spiderfreak

02-01-2009, 11:38 AM

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Nimble Mongoose

I am not changing the first two, but perhaps in the nimble mongoose slot running 2 Trygon Predators and 2 Jotun Grunts would be best?

if your going to play UGX threshold you need to play 4 goose the "Shroud" is just to good.

I say cut the 4 Dark Confidant, you have top, Ponder, Brainstorm and Predict (if you play Predict, i like Predict) to find what your looking for.

i do like the Predators i say play 2 or 3 and if your playing white 2 or 1 Mystic Enforcer

jrp

02-01-2009, 01:45 PM

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Nimble Mongoose

I am not changing the first two, but perhaps in the nimble mongoose slot running 2 Trygon Predators and 2 Jotun Grunts would be best?

I'm trying out the same configuration right now. Nimble Mongoose is very unimpressive in most matchups, including the threshold mirror. UBGw doesn't seem to actually acheive threshold until turn 4+ due to the lack of tempo cards. Nimble Mongoose is really only good (in UGBw) against:
-Team America: Snuff out proof threats that cost a single mana are good here.
-Combo: Being able to put your opponent on a clock for a single mana is pretty good here too, while you Brainstorm/shuffle away other creatures and dig for Counterbalance/Force of Will+blue cards.

Kingpete: If you get a chance please post your entire list - getting the mana right for UBGw is difficult and I was wondering what others are doing. For reference I'm currently using Bardo's manabase (8 fetches, 3 Sea, 3 Tundra, 3 Trop, 1 Island), which seems fine.

kingpete

02-01-2009, 02:47 PM

Ive been running the same mana base, but i didnt know others were as well. Those are basically the duals i could borrow from friends at the moment.

Misplayer

02-01-2009, 02:48 PM

I've been testing the following:

4 Goyf
4 Confidant
3 Nimble Mongoose
2 Trygon Predator

Cutting to 3 Daze for the 2nd Trygon. No complaints so far. I wouldn't recommend cutting Confidant, as it wins games.

Also, I don't understand the arguement that it's a huge target for removal and for that reason it shouldn't be played. If they're spending their removal on your Confidant, then you're Goyfs are probably getting there. If they resolve enough removal for all of that, then you have a pretty tough matchup on your hands.

kingpete

02-01-2009, 06:46 PM

Yeh, i would never take out Confidant. They are as integral to the deck as SDT or Counterbalance or Force. They are just insane.

nitewolf9

02-01-2009, 10:34 PM

Yeh, i would never take out Confidant. They are as integral to the deck as SDT or Counterbalance or Force. They are just insane.

http://www.liamneeson.info/images/links.jpg

kingpete

02-01-2009, 11:06 PM

http://www.liamneeson.info/images/links.jpg

Exactly like that!

CroSS.24

02-03-2009, 12:03 PM

i've been playing the ugbw for a lil while now and my land base is 6 fetch 4 trop 3 sea 2 tundra 1 island 1 swamp 1 forest i play in a wasteland and blood moon heavy enviroment so i run 3 basics but i dont think i would change it for chicago i like how it runs

Cenarius

02-04-2009, 05:12 PM

What fetch do you run to support a Forest? The basics to run in the 4c list are probably Island, Plains, Swamp if you run Vindicate's.

I mean playing Windswept Heath/Wooded Foothills is pretty bad. Playing only 6 fetch is also pretty bad and if your metagame consists of Blood Moons and Wasteland: Is 4c then the most optimale choice?

maggot870

02-13-2009, 02:46 PM

hi you all ! :smile:

I'm tinkering with a 4c thresh list too,
and i wanted your general oppinion to this.
It's not made for a specific meta since
I don't play that often in tourneys just because there
aren't that many here where I live.
I chose the deck because,
I think it offers good solutions to most decks.
So here's my list:

UGb/w Thresh
Mana (19) :

2 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Forest
3 Wasteland

Spells (29):

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Stifle
2 Thoughtseize
1 Putrefy
4 Swords to Plowshares

Creatures (12):

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Nimble Mongoose
1 Trygon Predator

Sideboard:

4 BEB
2 Krosan Grip
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Engineered Plague
1 EE

Choices:
Wastes: obvisious, and thats why i chose 19 manasources
Predator: strengthes balanced top,
good solution vs needles on waste etc...
putrefy: swords #5, can get crucibles, 3spheres etc instantly.
Tseize: vs combo of all kinds and problematic threads like tombstalker
Stifle: handles sweeper as EE and Deed, fetches, S. assaults, etc.
Heath: hopefully gets me the forest when I need it vs B2B if there is no predator...
thought about replacing 1 Dual to a Bayou or Scrubland to get B from the
Heath too, what do you think about this?

SB:
Grip vs humility etc.
Crypt vs all grave reliant
Plague gets rid of any nasty little tribal men =)
EE vs all of those little nasty which live through a Plague :P

Now I'd like it to be your Job to tell me what you'd make better,
or change to make this the best allround package possible =).
tks in advance!

€: Tbh I also think on a moony and "wasted" you should play UGw because it offers all colors you need from 4 Heath / 4 Strands, just my 2 cents to that =).

Brushwagg

02-13-2009, 09:53 PM

4 Color with Wasteland? I've been testing 4 color without it and have problems having the right color sometimes how is that working out for you? If you want to go Tempo then I'd drop down to 3 colors. 1 Stifle isn't going to that much for you either.

maggot870

02-13-2009, 10:13 PM

well tbh once I had problems with that but then I drew 3 wastes in a row...^^, but else colors were never a problem to me. my problem in 3c was that i got beaten by stalker when i played with ghastly demise and smother which rly p***ed me off. do you rly think it's good to replace swords with more putrefy's ? since it is the only spell I could fnd for black without color restriction, also it seemed a bit clunky for the main removal..

btw theres a mistake in the list I posted: it's 4 confidants and 3 mongeese.

CroSS.24

02-14-2009, 07:47 PM

Path to Exile is a really good swords i found it to be better then swords in most cases since i lose no tempo and i have never had the problem of giving them the extra land when i have win on table and they have the blocker to stop me from winning the path removes the problem with no life gain and i dont need to take an extra turn to kill them also i have been plying with 7 removal spells for awhile now 4 PTW/STP and 3 Putrefy its really good i love being able to kill the chalices and other problems pre SB my list has been performing amazing except when i went to michigan for the riw tourney here it is

3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Counter Balance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Path to Exile
3 Putrefy
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Dark Confidant
2 Trygon Predator

This list has been amazing i dont lose to anything in my meta which is almost every tier deck out there i will tell everyone how this list does at the mean deck open tomorrow

Anusien

02-14-2009, 08:12 PM

What matchups do you really want Dark Confidant in?

BKclassic

02-14-2009, 08:49 PM

What matchups do you really want Dark Confidant in?

All of them?

Edit- I just can't think of a match up where drawing cards and swinging for 2 is bad. All the same matchups where I want Brainstorm. And Tarmogoyf.

bowvamp

02-14-2009, 09:32 PM

I almost agreed with you there...
until I remembered burn. Against burn it's like a death sentence. Sure, you swing for 2, but a turn 2 confidant means game turn 3 if they have a good enough hand.

maggot870

02-14-2009, 09:59 PM

I almost agreed with you there...
until I remembered burn. Against burn it's like a death sentence. Sure, you swing for 2, but a turn 2 confidant means game turn 3 if they have a good enough hand.

I think all of you will agree when I say you avoid confidant by any means in a burn game w/o top and/or balance anyway ? so you give yourself the death sentence anyways with such a play or your loosing anyways due to a _BAD_ draw.

Nivled

02-16-2009, 11:48 AM

For the sideboard, most of the UGb and UGbw thresholds suggest 4 leyline of the void against ichorid and loam. Is extirpate a better option as it gives you more options against other matchups?

1. (like ANT -> extirpate something after they put AN on the top of their deck with mystical tutor, or screw up their cabal ritual/rite of flame mana calculations)
2. For loam, you just really need to take out their loams, and they are usually dead in the water
3. Against certain combo decks, if you manage to counter their key card and extirpate it away, they are going to face an uphill task

My sideboard now is
4 extirpate (or leyline of the void)
3 engineered explosives (storm decks w/empty the warrens, ichorid, etc)
3 engineered plague (goblins...)
3 krosan grip
2 Ethersworn cannonist (versus storm decks) /or 1 trygon predator (I have 2 in the mainboard) and 1 more engineered plague

I read somewhere that we can just throw the legacy storm decks, and try to improve our other matchups instead.

What do you guys think?

jazzykat

02-16-2009, 12:05 PM

IMO, The drawback of Confidant is worth the life cost. Assume you lose the average CMC per turn. Each extra card gets you closer to a counter that potentially stops 3 damage, your CB/Top engine which just about shuts off burn.

I just love the guy and I in my experience greatness at any cost is going to be a more positive 75% affect on your game than not.

I have RARELY ever gotten owned by my own Confidant and in the second game if he really is a concern just swap him out for BEB and/or extirpate. IMO he is really just a 2 mana dude to prevent 2/3 damage to my dome as the opponent usually doesn't let him hang around too much.

Lastly with regards to burn. They are often with very few creatures so for whatever damage he does to you there is a good chance he is doing the same amount to them while you outdraw them 2:1...

If you have top out and use brainstorm and ponder then he becomes almost a complete +.

Nivled

02-16-2009, 09:34 PM

For a legacy burn deck, they play 16 1cmc burn spells if you include rift bolt.

If they are on the play, by turn 3, assuming they have 3 lands out, they should have 6 spells in their hand/or played. If they play 4 X 1 cmc spells and 1 x 2 cmc spell, that's going to be at least 15 damage to your dome (sometimes 16). For threshold if you cracked a fetchland, that's going to be 16 damage you would have taken. A Dark Confidant on turn 2 without any library manipulation is asking for trouble. Competent Legacy Burn players will try to burn you at the end of your turn to draw out your counterspells and burn you again during their turn.

My limited experience playing threshold against burn decks so far:
1) no dark confidant unless you have library manipulation(top, brainstorm, ponder etc...)
2) daze is great versus them
3) try to establish counter-top lock on them asap. I will play turn 1 top over anything else to try to get a turn 2 counterbalance or top into a turn 3 counterbalance.
4) try to play your duals before your fetchlands. Every point of damage counts.
5) Swords on your goyfs to keep you afloat while you try to stabilize.

Burn is still underplayed in my meta though. Chalice for 1 maindeck/Trinisphere shuts down burn quickly.

(edit)
On a sidenote: I have revealed Force of Will with my dark confidant on 2 occassions. But I still won both of them (versus white weenie and charbelcher....)

Shugyosha

02-17-2009, 07:43 AM

4) try to play your duals before your fetchlands. Every point of damage counts.

You know that good Burn lists play Price of Progress, right? I never play more than two nonbasics unless I absolutely have to or have a complete lock with Balance and cmc :1: & :2: slot on top. Fetchlands can always be fetched into nothing against Price of Progress which means one point of damage less per fetch.

Phoenix Ignition

02-22-2009, 10:18 PM

Did this UGb thread turn into 5c thresh? I'm a little confused by either the title of the thread or the primer.

Smog

02-23-2009, 02:25 AM

The primer is out dated. This thread more or less talks about UGb and UGbw equally.

Ch@os

02-23-2009, 03:19 AM

I finished a tourney on weekend, about 41 people.
Take 4th place and only lost against a landstill [speedstill] list.
loam control 2:0
UGR Canadian Thrash 2:1
Burn 2:0
Speedstill 0:2
Affinity 2:1

Here the pile:

__________________________________
Maindeck:

3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Dark Confidant

3 Vindicate
3 Thoughtseize
4 Ponder

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will

3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance

Sideboard:

4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Engineered Plague
3 Krosan Grip
__________________________________

Citrus-God

02-23-2009, 01:11 PM

Did this UGb thread turn into 5c thresh? I'm a little confused by either the title of the thread or the primer.

5c Thresh is basically UGb Thresh. Thoughtseize changes the way the deck generally plays. If you were to compared UGW and UGB, it would be Thoughtseize. But the title of the thread should just be Thoughtseize Thresh.

Adan

02-23-2009, 01:40 PM

5c Thresh is basically UGb Thresh.

It's basically UGw with Thoughtseize and red sideboardcards...

Chronmaster

02-23-2009, 03:51 PM

Hey guys, I don't really have an extended interest in this deck, but I did play it in a small GPT last Saturday in Kentucky, so I'd figure I'd share my experience for whatever it's worth to anyone. Take note that this was my first Legacy event ever.

The list I ran was as follows:
Lands (18)
2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Swamp

Creatures (14)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Trygon Predator

Sorceries (6)
2 Thoughtseize
4 Ponder

Instants (16)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

Lock (6)
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance

Sideboard (15, no kidding):
2/2 Hydroblast/Blue Elemental Blast
1 Tormod's Crypt
4 Engineered Plague
2 Krosan Grip
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Threads of Disloyalty

As far as the list goes, it was pretty much just handed to me by a friend, I added a Swamp over a Sea, and threw a sideboard together. I think this is an older list, but it performed well.

17 People, 5 rounds, cut to top 8.

Anyhoo:
Round 1: It's the Fear
This guy had a very pimped out deck, and knew what he was doing, and was very nice. He was from Colombus, and had a striking resemblance to Steven Menendian. In game 1, I started some beats early, Forced and Dazed a Tarmogoyf and Counterbalance. Eventually, he stuck Counterbalance and Top, Pernicious Deed'd my threats away, and took control from there.
(SB was: +2 Grip, +2 Explosives, +1 Crypt, -1 StP, -2 Thoughtsieze, -2 random)
Game 2: I stick a Bob early, and keep him in play far too long for me to not win the game.
Game 3: I stick another early Bob, which gets removed. I find another Bob and another threat. I am pretty sure I stuck Counterbalance as well as a threat, and won game three with a few minutes left in the round.
(1-0)

Round 2: Mono-Red Burn
Game 1: He sticks Ankh of Mishra on Turn 1, as I had only a Daze. I lose to my lands, Cursed Scroll, and Shrapnel Blast.
(-2 Swords, -2 Bob, -2 Thoughtsieze, +2 Grip, +4 Blasts)
Game 2: I play a fetch to his Wasteland, I search up Basic Island. T2 Top, another Fetch. I fetch up the Basic Swamp, and he is stuck on Wasteland+Factory. That being the case, I play Bob, and start drawing Green monsters. I never took a point of damage besides my Bob.
Game 3: He sees no mana disruption, and get sort of mana-screwed. No Bob this time, but plenty of Tarmogoyfs.
(2-0)

Round 3: WhiteStax
Game 1: I Thoughtsieze his Geddon, and Daze his Trinisphere. Bob hits play, and he sticks Ghostly Prison, which is fine with me. I find my Trygon Predator which gets a Chalice for 1 first, then Ghostly Prison, and then Tarmogoyf beats end it.
(SB:+2 Grip, +2 Explosives, -3 Counterbalance, -1 Top)
Game 2: I punt the game because I play my dual first instead of my fetch, and cry when it gets Wasted. I can't find a second land to play my Bob until it's too late.
Game 3: I Thoughtsieze Armageddon again, and Force Trinisphere. He has nothing besides Ghostly Prison left. I pass the turn. He rips Angel and morphs it. I pluck a Explosives the next turn, play it for Zero and pop it, getting his angel and mox before he can morph it up next turn. Of course, he plucks a Chalice and plays it on 1, literally nuking my whole hand. Draw-go ensues, until I find Trygon Predator. That gets rid of the Chalice, Brainstorms and Mongeese fly out, and once the Prison left, the game was over.
(3-0)

Round 4: I scoop to my friend, the only other 3-0 (There was one 2-0-1), since he is close to 2050 total on byes. The plan was that he would drop to me in the Top 8 if need be, since he was probably getting his three byes on rating by the end of the tourny anyways. I nom some Caesar's Pizza, and since I am a small child, I give the rest to my Round 1 Opponent.
(3-1)

Round 5: Intentional Draw with Vial Goblins.
(3-1-1)

Top 8:
WU(!) Stax
Game 1: I don't remember all that much about Game 1. It lasted a little while, I think. I was able to stop all Trinishpere shenanagans, and I had a Bob early. I couldn't beat him down that well, since he had Maze of Ith and a Ghostly Prison. I was getting in for two a turn with Bob and Goyf. Eventually, I found extra Goyfs and a Predator to really seal the deal.
(SB: Same as above)
Game 2: Again, I prevent getting locked out with Thoughtsieze and FoW. I get an early Bob, and StP the ominous Morph Creature (Can you guess what it was?). I stick a Trygon Predator, but he Sowers it, and I am somewhat low on life from a FoW off of Bob. He beats me down to 8, I play a second Bob, and brace for impact. I go to four, and luckily only take 1 damage from both Bobs, and I draw a Top for kicker. I Brainstorm, find another Brainstorm and a Fetch. I fetch, Brainstorm again, and find the StP. At two life, I just needed a land in the top three cards to not die to Bob. It was there, of course, off of the Brainstorm!

Semis: Play the same ITF player from Round 1:
Basically, I lost. I didn't get enough pressure on him in either game, and his deck has a much higher inevitability than mine, with his land package. I misplayed once or twice for sure, and it probably cost me a game. Perhaps if I had had more experience with the deck, I might have made it past this round. Unfortunately, I had only needed to win this round to get the byes, since my aforementioned friend had won through the Semis. He dropped to the ITF player for the larger prize.

I probably won't play this deck for Chicago. I like Merfolk more, although I think this deck is slightly better, probably. However, I don't think I have enough experience with the deck to play it (near) flawlessly, so I don't want to play it at the GP.

I hope this was useful to some of you guys. I don't really know anything about the lists, but I was quite happy with my SB and MD, nothing really felt out of place.

Smog

02-23-2009, 05:29 PM

Thanks for the report, and grats on your finish.

I nom some Caesar's Pizza, and since I am a small child, I give the rest to my Round 1 Opponent.

I lul'd

Citrus-God

02-27-2009, 12:15 AM

It's basically UGw with Thoughtseize and red sideboardcards...

It's still more UGB if anything.

Adan

02-27-2009, 01:04 AM

It's still more UGB if anything.

Enforcers and Swords set the focus on White, thus the manabase plays 2 Tundra but only 1 Undergrond Sea and Volcanic Island each. The Underground Seas are only for Thoughtseize and maybe SB Yixlid Jailers if you want to have some stuff to face Ichorid.

5color Thresh also has in common that it uses Predict as an optional source of CA.

The difference between 5color Thresh and the usual build is mainly:

- 3 Needles, - 1 Predict, - 1 Daze, + 4 Thoughtseize and 1 land (restructuring the manabase to the 4/4/4/2/2/1/1 one).

And as long as it does not play Dark Confidant, it's not UGb as imho Dark Confidant is the card that coins UGb, not Thoughtseize.

Citrus-God

02-27-2009, 01:24 AM

Enforcers and Swords set the focus on White, thus the manabase plays 2 Tundra but only 1 Undergrond Sea and Volcanic Island each. The Underground Seas are only for Thoughtseize and maybe SB Yixlid Jailers if you want to have some stuff to face Ichorid.

It's only White Thresh if it runs Predict.

5color Thresh also has in common that it uses Predict as an optional source of CA.

But it boards out Predict way more often than White Thresh usually does.

And as long as it does not play Dark Confidant, it's not UGb as imho Dark Confidant is the card that coins UGb, not Thoughtseize.

I consider it Black Thresh because the earlier Thoughtseize lists looked like

// Lands 17
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
1 Island

// Creatures 11
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Sea Drake

// Spells 32
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Portent
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
4 Ghastly Demise

dre4m

02-27-2009, 01:29 AM

Chronmaster

02-27-2009, 10:31 AM

Nice work, Chronmaster. Congrats on a good finish.
Your build is solid, but I am wondering about the 4 Plagues and singleton Crypt in your board. Did you side them in at any point?
Also, are the lists up from that GPT? I would be interested in those other T8 decklists, especially that Stax.
I sided in the Crypt against ITF, since he's playing Intuition and Loam and such. I could have probably used more Crypts or graveyard hate. I'm not really sure what SBs for this deck look like, since I just borrowed it from a friend. The Plagues were never used, but I think I dodged about 4 Goblin decks while playing, and had I needed to play out the last round, all four would have come in.

I couldn't find the Top 8 lists for the event, but here's what I remember.
It's the Fear won.
My friend who dropped to him was playing UGr Thresh. (wastelands, bolts, fire/ice)
I played this deck.
The other Top 4 player was the Vial Goblins that I ID'd with in the last round.
5-8 was WU Stax (I saw only Sower and maybe Brainstorm for the splash), a terrible version of Spring Tide, Dreadstill, and one other deck I can't remember.

Arsenal

03-11-2009, 10:12 PM

UGb Threshold is something I'm working on; do not own Tundra's so no white splash for me.

The lists I've been seeing on deckcheck.net either run Thoughtseize or the CounterTop combo. Also, what's the agreed upon removal spell for UGb? I see lots of Ghastly Demise, but this seems weak to me. Anyone still play straight UGb or is it truly going to be UGWb (especially now since the GP)?

Adan

03-12-2009, 05:43 AM

The lists I've been seeing on deckcheck.net either run Thoughtseize or the CounterTop combo. Also, what's the agreed upon removal spell for UGb? I see lots of Ghastly Demise, but this seems weak to me. Anyone still play straight UGb or is it truly going to be UGWb (especially now since the GP)?

I was also working on UGb because in the past I saw Machinus list and thought "Why is he not playing Dark Confidant???".

So I threw together this list:

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=13451

Repeal was in there for creatures Ghastly Demise could not hit. I played a full playset of Ghastly Demise at that time because I wanted to kill 1st Turn Lackeys and especially Frogmites and Myr Enforcers. Try to do that with Smother. -.-

But then I began to play 3/1 Smother/Demise as Smother really kills every other good creature in that format (Confidants! Goyfs, Dryads, Vores, Crushers, Nantuko Shades, Dreadnoughts etc...).

I am close to run only 3 Smothers but 2 Explosives. But I modified Smmenen's build which he played at Columbus and cut a few cards. The Manabase is indeed strong.

So, IF you have some pocket money, you can buy yourself 2 grinded Tundras. Since Thresholds gameplan has more advanced to out-control the opponent with Counterbalance, lifetotals become irrelevant anyway.

But it's actually Murphy's Law:

Everytime I play Smother, I get beaten up by Affinity or 1st Turn Lackeys

Everytime I play Demise, I lose to Dark Confidants or get paired gainst SuiBlonde/Pikula Deaguy thingy.

Everytime I play UGb in general, I lose to Tombstalker. =/

Conclusion: Splash StoPs!

I'd play a pure UGb list like this:

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [B] Underground Sea
1 [B] Island (1)
4 [B] Tropical Island

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose

// Spells
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [NE] Daze
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [ON] Smother

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [DIS] Trygon Predator
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague

Since the curve is only CC0-2, 16 lands seem to be enough, especially because you can still use Brainstorm-Ponder-Top to find lands. Confidant is good at that, too.

Arsenal

03-12-2009, 10:36 AM

Hmm... going down to 16 lands is interesting. Although I guess I see your point that with BS, Ponder, Top, and Confidant, you should be able to hit 2 lands fairly easy. I'll do some testing with the list you described (-2 EE as I don't own any, and +2 some sort of removal).

freakish777

03-12-2009, 10:51 PM

Hmm... going down to 16 lands is interesting.

Why would you want to go down to 16 lands? Ever?

Nassif's GP winning list runs 20 lands to ensure it can run bombs that actually win games (Shackles & Sower) is proof that MTGTheSource as a community has been building Threshold decks incorrectly for quite some time now (and that we need more lands so we can run a legitimate curve, not just 1 and 2cc cards).

undone

03-12-2009, 11:23 PM

Why would you want to go down to 16 lands? Ever?

Nassif's GP winning list runs 20 lands to ensure it can run bombs that actually win games (Shackles & Sower) is proof that MTGTheSource as a community has been building Threshold decks incorrectly for quite some time now (and that we need more lands so we can run a legitimate curve, not just 1 and 2cc cards).

1) Nassif did not play threshold.

2) Nassif sacraficed the landstill matchup for the U/x Aggro control mirror superiority(clearly a good choice for a long event), He created a deck which gives up the landstill matchup (It has 8 outs to humility period assuming they run it into daze.)

3) His play skill advantage, and his awsome openers coupled with his opponents poor draws made the matchup an uphill battle when it should be no more than 55/45 in nassifs favor.

4) Bombs can be beaten his deck can be metagamed against, and he loses if he cant play tops. The deck is far worse than threshold if you can counter his tops due to lower ponder count, no goose and generaly less selection. The deck is highly reliant on top and if it doesnt resolve than the deck is significantly worse. Essentialy top not resolving means he doesnt win.

Nassifs list is interesting but is closer to its the fear without board wipers than threshold. Its closer to NLU than it is to threshold. Its just not threshold as no goose makes it not threshold, fewer ponders makes it not threshold, and not 4 dazes makes it not threshold.

It isnt threshold, but it is damn good. I think if you counter STD this deck will almost always lose to other threshold decks.

Misplayer

03-13-2009, 08:01 AM

undone

03-13-2009, 01:49 PM

@undone, I agree with a lot of what you said about Nassif's deck. I think Probasco's deck is going to be the new hot item and is much closer to ITF than Nassif's because he runs Academy Ruins and can recur EE, Shackles, Needle and Top. Seems good, right? It is, and it (should) CRUSH in the aggro-control matchup.

My question is: how can "Thresh"-style decks (with or without Mongoose) gameplan/sideboard for Probasco's deck? Recurring EE/Shackles is a nightmare for Thresh, especially if not running Mongoose, and once you're to the late game the matchup becomes very very difficult. Needles help out of the board, but he'll just save his Grips for them because you'll obviously be naming EE if you can resolve a Mongoose.

Secondly, even though many "Thresh" lists have been moving away from Mongoose (see the UGw thread), does this creature-control heavy build make them relevant again?

1) The best way to beat acadamy ruins is to eat them when they waste thier turn. Example

He acadamy ruins back a shackles for goyf 2U, he casts shakles 3, he takes your guy 2, stifle U. You traded U for 7U. Yes it can be a bad situation but the thing is you just play agressive in this matchup and things like that become horrible trades.

And wasteland wasteland always works.:rolleyes:

2) Goose should have been in decks. If it wasnt in than the build was wrong. Vs nassif count the ways he has to deal with a resolved threshed goose. I count 4. And his name is tarmogoyf. If I was to play nassifs deck my changes would be -1 shackles -1 sower - 1 predator -1 other +4 goose. The reasoning for this is that it makes bob better, CB better, gives you a landstill out, and gives you an out for goose which isnt goyf.

3) Nimble mongeese have only one natural predator and it costs 1G. They kill just about everything else.

spirit of the wretch

03-13-2009, 02:44 PM

freakish777

03-13-2009, 11:54 PM

Nassif's GP winning list runs a SB of 15 singletons. That's proof, that the whole world used to build SBs incorrectly.

Actually, it's proof that his maindeck was so strong that he didn't even need a coherent sideboard strategy.

@undone,

1. Semantics that we really don't need to get into.

2. Wrong. Him actually having a curve means he has cards Control decks actually care about in the late game. Counterbalance becomes a nightmare instead of "Oh, that's annoying, I guess I just play EE on 4 with 2 counters/Wrath of God/Humility" because Nassif can flip Sower. Not only that but let's assume that you're correct and the Landstill match is bad. That would mean that Landstill accounts for so little of the metagame that you shouldn't take it into account when building decks for the time being.

3. Ok... See the Day 2 breakdown of UGb(x) decks I have listed below. It's not like Nassif was the only one piloting this deck. Oh, and decks with Nimble Mongoose that were UGb(x)? There was a grand total of 1 that made day 2. The results are in. Nimble Mongoose is not a good card anymore (in UGbx decks), the pros have picked up on this and adjusted.

4. How many Sensei's Divining Tops have you Force of Willed? Dazed? Counterspelled? Krosan Gripped? I definitely Daze and Krosan Grip SDTs. If my deck has SDT in it, and my opponent plays one of their own and I can stop it with Force of Will, I don't. Maybe I'm just a bad player...

So Day 2 decks with 4 Tarmogoyf, 4 Force of Will, and some number of black cards (Progenitus doesn't count) are below:

Here's all the Day 2 decks: http://www.thestarkingtonpost.com/?page_id=441

Threshold (has the keyword somewhere on it):
19 (UGBw Threshold, no goose, Mystic Enforcer)
18 (Actually Threshold, 4 Goose)

Nassif's List (that "isn't Threshold", but you really shouldn't care what it's called, its the same game plan, play Goyf, Counter spells and remove blockers long enough for Goyf to kill the opponent):
21 (CounterTop, no goose, Nassif's list)
20 (CounterTop, no goose, Nassif's list)
20 (Nassif, no Goose)
20 (CounterTop, no Goose, Nassif's list)
20 (CounterTop, no Goose, Nassif's List)
20 (LSV, no Goose, Nassif's List, has an actual coherent sideboard, Nassif apparently got his list from LSV, so who maybe he only got the MD from LSV?)
21 (CounterTop, no Goose, basically Nassif's list with Wasteland)
20 (CounterTop, no Goose, Nassif's list)

Other CounterTop decks (read, basically UGbx Threshold for all intents and purposes of this thread):
18 (CounterTop, no goose, Vendillion Clique)
18 (CounterTop, no Goose, Vendillion Clique)
20 (CounterTop, no Goose, Stifles + Wastes)
18 (CounterTop, no Goose, Quirion Dryad)

ITF (NOT the same game plan, Counter spells, blow the board up a lot, then play Goyf, then Counters a couple more spells, then finally kill the opponent):
21 (no Goose, obv)
22 (no Goose, obv)

Team America (NOT the same game plan, kill lands, then play Goyf, Counter some spells, kill the opponent):
20 (no Goose, obv, with Spell Snare, without Sinkhole)
20 (no Goose, obv, Sinkhole)
20 (no Goose, obv, Hymn to Tourach, without Sinkhole)

So let's ignore ITF and Team America, since they aren't close enough to the game plan UGb(x) Threshold was attempting to play. 1230 people came to Chicago to play. 132 made Day 2 (about 10%). 14 of those decks were UGb(x) Aggro Control with a game plan basically equivalent to UGb(x) Threshold's (Play Goyf, remove blockers and Counter spells until Goyf kills the opponent, cheap card selection and advantage spells ensure we can enact this game plan). 1 played 4 copies of Nimble Mongoose. 1 played 2 copies of Mystic Enforcer. NONE OF THEM PLAYED ANY LESS THAN 18 LANDS. Over half of them played 20 lands or more.

Guess what, the pros showed up and rocked GP Chicago because people continue to build their decks with 16 lands and then wonder why they get mana screwed. They built with cards that are actually relevant past turn 3 (Sower, Shackles) instead of decks with mana curves of 1, 2, and 5 exclusively, and we sit around an wonder why we don't win games when we don't get the Nuts double Force of Will, double Daze, 1 Mongoose hands.

Nassif's UGb(x) CounterTop is in essence the same strategy as UGb(x) Threshold. It simply eschews bad cards for better ones (2 extra lands are better than 2 Nimble Mongoose, and 2 Sower of Temptation are better than 2 Nimble Mongoose).

Kyachi

03-23-2009, 11:54 PM

Actually, it's proof that his maindeck was so strong that he didn't even need a coherent sideboard strategy.

Probably true. Finally-- due to the additional land count-- a Threshold build has finally been able to place in a top eight. Perhaps now it can start to put up numbers and marginally affect the metagame.

sauce

03-24-2009, 11:15 AM

nassif's deck was not threshold, it was next level blue.
mongoose is run in threshold, but is not needed in next level blue... why? because he chose to play higher casting cost creatures that can turn the game around on their own (sower, trygon) and an amazing artifact which takes the best creature (goyf) from your opponent by the time it comes down.

mongoose is a huge problem for nassif's deck as another person has mentioned.
i run an ee in the board and you have to force of will the mongoose if you don't have the ee in hand/goyf online.

the metagame is so diverse, his sideboard is a good reflection of that.
unless half the people in your meta play a specific deck, your sb should look like nassif's or at least close enough.. 2 cards for every matchup that is "common" in your metagame.

Legacy

03-24-2009, 03:37 PM

Misplayer

03-24-2009, 04:24 PM

The reason nassif had the highlander sb is because he he runs 4 brainstorm, 4 sensei's tops and 2 ponder. That is a lot of cantriping. Mainly because the 4 tops and shuffle effects though.

This allows the deck to basically always find his bomb against your deck and why he only needs a couple cards sb'd in against you because with all that cantrip and library manipulation he is going to find his sb bomb. Decks that have this high number of cantrips and 4 tops are the only decks that can have this type of sideboard.

I have to disagree with this. I've played Thresh lists with 3 Top, 4 BS and 4 Ponder and I've still had matches were I can't find the appropriate hate with 3 copies in the deck. Relying on cantrips in favor of card quantity is a strategy I cannot embrace. That's like saying you should play a deck full of cantrips and 1 Goyf and just use Brainstorms and shuffle effects to find it.

That said, it's been revealed that Nassif made the highlander sideboard as a joke, and there were multiple cards that addressed similar matchups or had a similar functionality. I don't think any player could justify going into a major event with 15 cards that do 15 distinctly different things as a sideboard. Because of this, I don't understand the people on here who are claiming that a sideboard of 15 different cards is a good strategy. What is your reasoning other than it won the GP? In my experience, a sideboard should be designed (traditionally) to improve your deck's 3-4 worst matchups, not to give you 1 bomb against 15 different matchups, and sometimes it seems that some people on here are suggesting the latter. Ugh.

sauce

03-24-2009, 05:04 PM

i think his sb is far from a joke.. why is it a joke?

1 Burrenton Forge-Tender (sligh/goblins/burn)
1 Kataki, War's Wage (affinity/stax)
1 Blue Elemental Blast (sligh/goblins/burn/canadian thresh/d.stompy/loam)
1 Darkblast (goblins/ichorid)
1 Enlightened Tutor (help find half the sb tech)
1 Hydroblast (sligh/goblins/burn/canadian thresh/d.stompy/loam)
1 Krosan Grip (dreadstill/enchantress/survival)
1 Perish (elves/survival/mongoose/progenitus thresh)
1 Energy Flux (affinity/stax)
1 Engineered Plague (tribal)
1 Planar Void (ichorid/loam)
1 Threads of Disloyalty (mirror/sligh)
1 Relic of Progenitus (ichorid/tombstalker/loam)
1 Tormod's Crypt (ichorid/tombstalker/loam)
1 Umezawa's Jitte (aggro decks)

why are they not all 3-4 of the same card like for example why not just play 2 blue elemental blast and 3 relics or 3 crypts, etc...
because he does not want people to have a pithing needle on relic/crypt and give him dead cards until he can grip them..
he plays 1ofs because he does not want to get meddling maged, extirpated, cabal therapied.
there is nothing wrong with his sb, all the card choices (besides maybe planar void, although it is only 1 mana to cast it) are good sb tech to help w/ specific matchups.

Elf_Ascetic

03-25-2009, 05:26 AM

Adan

03-25-2009, 05:30 AM

I think the background of the 15-singles-SB of Nassif originates from a certain lack of cards.

The other "pros" like LSV, Paulo Vitor and such played their Sideboard in a more comprehendable manner.

But still, Nassif's SB has got enough redundancies to fullfill the same role as the standard SB. Some cards are even better (like Jitte against random Aggro or Energy Fluxes against Affinity or Stax).

sauce

03-25-2009, 01:52 PM

Burrenton Forge-Tender is horrible. A second Jitte is much better.

Kataki is maybe the worst sideboardcard ever against stax. Energy Flux makes a good second. Playing 3 Krosan Grips would have been a better choice, since it helps in the mirror, against landstill, and does it's job against stax or affinity. (who plays affinity anyways?)

The rest makes kind of sense, but I still dislike the choice for Planar Void and Tormods Crypt over more Relics. Relics are so much better against Loam.

have you ever played burrenton forge-tender? he is amazing...
go ahead, swing with your 9/2 piledriver, i will take ... 0 from him and still get to keep chump blocking turn after turn while i get my e.plague into play or goyf.

second, you must not know how most staxx matches go, you get locked out under either a 3sphere or crucible... so getting 3 mana can be very difficult..
kataki (2 mana) is not the worst vs them. sure if you have 3 mana, k-grip is the mortal nuts.

thirdly, i think i already explained why he played 3 diff kinds of graveyard hate, i think it had to do with not wanting to be pithing needled...

Elf_Ascetic

03-26-2009, 04:29 AM

cane

03-26-2009, 06:45 AM

BFT also is an answer to a T1 lackey, wich can be crucial
and, it sacrifices, so it can blow up bridges against ichorid

Misplayer

03-26-2009, 07:39 AM

No, I've not played with BFT against goblins, only tested it in extended for a bit (you know, elfdecks running the world and stuff). Say you BFT (on turn 3 of 4 - you're speaking of 9/2 Piledrivers) is another card. Engineered Plague for example. Or Engineered Explosives. That would be better, would it? BFT is a card that reads: w: Gain 10 life it your opponent has Goblin Pildriver. Otherwise, gain 4. Give me a plague, hydroblast or tividar's crusade instead..

I've had my share with stax, lol. You have counters for an early chalice and crucible. If you don't: Kataki won't help either. Energy Flux is also 3 mana. I cannot say I find Kataki better then grip, but if you want to run them in your sideboard, I'll be the last to whine about it.

Anyway, I think we can conclude this sideboard was not optimal, but still ok. Let's talk about the way we can fit his strategy into UGb Threshold, playing more lands, and more bombs. Is that desirable?

QFMFT.

When you say bombs, I'm assuming you mean Sower/Shackles? I don't know how good of an idea extra land is. If you want to support Shackles, then you should probably up the land count, but if you're just looking to add a Sower or two to a UGb(w) list then the standard 18 land should be fine. I think UGb(w) Thresh's strength is that every single card in the deck is a bomb, or a way to find a bomb, with the exception of Daze. But cards like Confidant, Thoughtseize, Counterbalance, Trygon Predator, Tarmogoyf, etc. are all often game-breaking must-answer cards for your opponent. Even Daze can be game-breaking, especially in the mirror. I can't see a reason to replace any of those cards with lands, but I could probably convinced otherwise with sound reasoning.

freakish777

03-28-2009, 01:03 PM

nassif's deck was not threshold, it was next level blue.
mongoose is run in threshold, but is not needed in next level blue... why?

It's not run in NLB because it's no longer a good card in the metagame (there were two UGbw Threshold decks to make day two, 1 didn't even play Nimble Mongoose, compared to 12 NLB decks with no Goose). Let's look at the cards UGb(w) Threshold (the one that did play Nimble Mongoose) and NLB share:

4 Dark Confidant
3 Daze
3 Counterbalance
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
3 Sensei’s Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Trygon Predator
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea

They share 51 cards. That's an 85% overlap. It's quite logical to view NLB as a simple evolution of Threshold. Nassif, LSV, Paulo VDdR, and everyone else playing NLB/CounterTop probably started with UGbw Threshold and all came to the same conclusion. Nimble Mongoose simply doesn't do enough. So they took their original list, took Goose out and put in cards they thought were better at doing the exact same strategy. If a deck is a logical evolution of another one and even has the same strategy intact, there's absolutely nothing wrong with talking about it in the same thread/context/breath as the deck it evolved from. Arguing "NLB isn't Threshold!" is basically childish semantics. Sure they're different. One is better than the other (and wins a little bit slower). That's about it.

Cards they differ by, transforming Threshold to NLB:

-1 Daze, +1 Counterbalance (answers for answers)
-2 Ponder, +1 Sensei's Divining Top, +1 Island (cantrips for 1 cantrip and 1 land, since you play turn 1 Ponder looking for a land a lot of the times anyway)
-2 Thoughtseize, +1 Krosan Grip, +1 Vedelken Shackles (answers for answers, except one of the new answers doubles as a threat).
-4 Nimble Mongoose, +2 Sower of Temptation, +1 Underground Sea, +1 Vedelken Shackles (threats for threats and mana, except the new threats double as answers).

I really don't see what everyone's objection to talking about Nassif/LSV's list in this thread is, I mean if you want me to, I'll just get a mod to rename the thread to UGb(x) Threshold/Next Level Blue since they're basically the same deck. My whole point of bringing this up in the first place is that MTGTheSource has been building decks wrong because we're blinded by childish semantics that leave us clinging to cards (like Nimble Mongoose) when they're no longer relevant in the metagame.

sauce

03-29-2009, 12:37 PM

It's not run in NLB because it's no longer a good card in the metagame (there were two UGbw Threshold decks to make day two, 1 didn't even play Nimble Mongoose, compared to 12 NLB decks with no Goose). Let's look at the cards UGb(w) Threshold (the one that did play Nimble Mongoose) and NLB share:

4 Dark Confidant
3 Daze
3 Counterbalance
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
3 Sensei’s Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Trygon Predator
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea

They share 51 cards. That's an 85% overlap. It's quite logical to view NLB as a simple evolution of Threshold. Nassif, LSV, Paulo VDdR, and everyone else playing NLB/CounterTop probably started with UGbw Threshold and all came to the same conclusion. Nimble Mongoose simply doesn't do enough. So they took their original list, took Goose out and put in cards they thought were better at doing the exact same strategy. If a deck is a logical evolution of another one and even has the same strategy intact, there's absolutely nothing wrong with talking about it in the same thread/context/breath as the deck it evolved from. Arguing "NLB isn't Threshold!" is basically childish semantics. Sure they're different. One is better than the other (and wins a little bit slower). That's about it.

Cards they differ by, transforming Threshold to NLB:

-1 Daze, +1 Counterbalance (answers for answers)
-2 Ponder, +1 Sensei's Divining Top, +1 Island (cantrips for 1 cantrip and 1 land, since you play turn 1 Ponder looking for a land a lot of the times anyway)
-2 Thoughtseize, +1 Krosan Grip, +1 Vedelken Shackles (answers for answers, except one of the new answers doubles as a threat).
-4 Nimble Mongoose, +2 Sower of Temptation, +1 Underground Sea, +1 Vedelken Shackles (threats for threats and mana, except the new threats double as answers).

I really don't see what everyone's objection to talking about Nassif/LSV's list in this thread is, I mean if you want me to, I'll just get a mod to rename the thread to UGb(x) Threshold/Next Level Blue since they're basically the same deck. My whole point of bringing this up in the first place is that MTGTheSource has been building decks wrong because we're blinded by childish semantics that leave us clinging to cards (like Nimble Mongoose) when they're no longer relevant in the metagame.

unless its renamed ot UGbw thresh/NLU it wont make sense.
this deck also has white mana and swords to plowshares

Adan

03-30-2009, 07:08 AM

here in Germany, Threshold went by the name of "Not Quite Grow" ever since it has established itself.

It's still appropriate. Just offering a solution to the nomenclature...

freakish777

03-30-2009, 09:33 PM

unless its renamed ot UGbw thresh/NLU it wont make sense.
this deck also has white mana and swords to plowshares

Please stop trolling in the DTB forum. As I've already explained "it doesn't make sense because none of the cards have the word threshold on them" is childish semantics that holds people back.

raharu

03-31-2009, 10:28 PM

Please stop trolling in the DTB forum. As I've already explained "it doesn't make sense because none of the cards have the word threshold on them" is childish semantics that holds people back.
+1

Misplayer

04-09-2009, 11:38 AM

I was looking for a deck to play at a local tournament last night and was kicking around Gavin Verhey’s “Plane Brew” (mentioned here (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/17208_Flow_of_Ideas_Through_My_Eyes_A_GP_Chicago_Story.html)) when I saw the UGbw NQG lists that the guys from Team SPOD came up with, expounded upon here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13366) (props to you guys btw, I love many of your lists). I made some changes to the main including cutting 2 Shackles for 2 Vendilion Clique (somewhat of a pet card, plus I wanted more men to make Jitte better, and I’m not sold on Shackles in Thresh) and cutting an Island for a Pithing Needle (this was very very wrong despite there being two Survival lists and three Vial decks there). My SB was:

3 Tormod’s Crypt (I knew there was an Ichorid list there)
4 K Grip (plus 3 other Counterbalance decks)
4 Engineered Plague (Faeries & Goblins were there)
2 Teeg (not used)
2 Path to Exile (I love this card)

Quick Thoughts: I went 2-2 beating Eva Green and Sliver Survival, losing to UGwr Moon Thresh and Ugr Dreadstill. Jitte was very good, winning a game against an Eva Green/Rock style deck where we had matching boards of Goyf + Bob. Clique was solid, but not great, I wanted it to be Shackles or Sower a few times. Pithing Needle was underwhelming, but EE was a champ. Bob won me a few games. I didn’t see Trygon once where it was relevant. I wanted Daze to be Spell Snare.

I found 4 Top to be extremely clunky, and still didn’t see it half of my games. I saw all 4 more than once, and would rather have seen Ponder in one of those slots.

I was short on land more than once. I punted the third game of the Dreadstill matchup when I kept a 1-land hand, Brainstormed into nothing and my Top was met by Force of Will. I was also flooded more than once. I think cutting down to 5 cantrips really really hurt the consistency of the deck. In my loss to Thresh, I had to use my removal on Trygon Predator and Magus of the Moon which were followed up by Goyfs. This same scenario happened in games 1 and 2 and I couldn’t find an answer to save my life (literally).

Conclusion: I like the Jitte-style build a lot. I feel that Bob is worth the weaker manabase (I didn’t have color issues, only mana issues). If I was to play this deck again (which I undoubtedly will), I would cut 1 Needle, 1 Top, 2 Clique and 3 Daze for 1 Island, 1 Sower, 2 Ponder (3 total) and 3 Spell Snare. I feel these changes would suit the deck better for a meta with swarm-aggro, BGw Eva Green/Rock, and of course the best players all playing some variation of Counter/Top/Goyf, be it NLU, Thresh or Dreadstill. I feel like I need to metagame heaviest against Counter/Top/Goyf because I can rely on the power of my deck and playskill to get by the other decks, but to beat the good players with CB/Top/Goyf I’ll need list designed specifically for those matchups.

gamegeek2

04-09-2009, 10:59 PM

I find it somewhat sad that there are 3 different threshold threads. Someone else had the sense to point that out to me...

Spur Grappler

04-29-2009, 09:34 AM

I am testing this list at the moment:

Lands (19)
4 Delta
4 Strand
2 USea
2 Tundra
3 Tropical
1 Island
1 Scrubland
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Creatures (11)
4 Goyf
4 Confidant
3 Trygon Predator

Spells (30)
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 CB

4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Vindicate

As you see I do without Ponder. I played 2 before, but cuttet them for a land and the 4th Daze. I don't know, if you can really do that, but before you say that everyone just has to play 4 Ponder in this Deck I would like to point out what made me cut it:

You mostly look for a land with Ponder anyway, so I rather play more lands. That gives you more speed in the early game. I want to play a first turn Top or Thoughtseize and a second turn critter or CB. I don't want to cast Ponder in the first turns unless I'm looking for a land.

In this list you are able to draw cards with Confidant, so I feel there is no need for more card quality cards than 4 Brainstorm and 4 Top. We can already shuffle with 8 fetch lands which is enough I think. A deck full of so many cantrips is bad in the late game, because you have less solutions for problems and you have to spend time and mana to search for them. Often it would be so much better just to draw the solution right away in these slots you spend for Ponder.

I have no Mongoose that needs a full grave. Thoughtseize is the sorcery for Goyf.

Ponder is just so much worse than Brainstrom and Top. It doesn't really work with CB. You can't get bad cards out of your hand and shuffle them away or get them on top of your libary for CB.

Of course Ponder is a strong top deck in the middle and late game and better than a land then, but I think it makes the early game much weaker and more inconsistent, because you need one turn to cast it and then there is still a chance that you don't find the essential 2nd or 3rd land in your Ponder.

Maybe I am totally wrong on this, as I am not that experienced with this deck, so please give some advide on the Ponder issue.

Nihil Credo

05-17-2009, 01:34 PM

From the last DTBF update:

A second important change involves how Threshold decks are counted; in the last year the archetype has evolved to the point that the old categorisation by their splash colour (or lack thereof) makes little sense.

Today, the one clear split is between decks packing the maindeck Counterbalance/Top combination and those favouring an aggressive, tempo-driver approach with Daze, Stifle, and Wasteland. The latter decks are quite well established, with only a few secondary choices being discussed (mostly additional threats such as Dreadnought or Alara Reborn creatures) and splashing exclusively either Red or Black.

Counterbalance decks, on the other side, exist in a continuum, from the classic Mongoose builds to the Chicago lists to those incorporating additional tricks (Survival, Natural Order, etc.); they also exist in pretty much every possible colour combination that includes Blue and Green, from two to four colours.
If some clear division in approaches emerges, this will eventually be adopted in both thread organisation and tournament tallies. For the time being, all CounterTop decks that do not fall into any established category, i.e. that follow the game plan of "establish the Balance soft-lock and play good creatures", will get dumped into one format-leading cauldron.

In accordance with the above, this thread is being locked and will eventually be archived. You may continue your discussion in either the CounterTop thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13716) or the Tempo Thresh (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13715) thread, as appropriate.