[Single Card Discussion] Storm Entity

[BreathWeapon]

This card could be interesting in Storm Combo.

Storm Entity, 1R

Creature - Elemental (TS) U

Haste
Storm Entity comes into play with a +1/+1 counter for each other spell played this turn.
1/1

So, Belcher averages about 3.5 storm a turn just in acceleration, and this card is base 1/1, that's a 4/4 to 5/5 Haste for 1R that can either be MDed or SBed and a 5/5 to 6/6 Haste with Living Wish for 2RG. If people start to counter the fourth mana source in order to prevent ETW, or if people counter the Goblin Charbelcher, Burning Wish or Living Wish, then this card can still be cast on the same turn as a two turn clock.

I imagine this thing is the best "Man Plan" Storm combo could have besides Tomb of Urami.

[Happy Gilmore]

He will be good. How good and in what deck is another story. I could certainly see TES with this, maybe cutting some number of plunge into Darkness?

Lol, I can't wait to see what they do in T1 with this guy.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

This card could be interesting in Storm Combo.

Storm Entity, 1R

Creature - Elemental (TS) U

Haste
Storm Entity comes into play with a +1/+1 counter for each other spell played this turn.
1/1

So, Belcher averages about 3.5 storm a turn just in acceleration, and this card is base 1/1, that's a 4/4 to 5/5 Haste for 1R that can either be MDed or SBed and a 5/5 to 6/6 Haste with Living Wish for 2RG. If people start to counter the fourth mana source in order to prevent ETW, or if people counter the Goblin Charbelcher, Burning Wish or Living Wish, then this card can still be cast on the same turn as a two turn clock.

I imagine this thing is the best "Man Plan" Storm combo could have besides Tomb of Urami.


Empty the Warrens is good because it escapes StP and counterspells, and can't be chumpblocked. This card doesn't fit any of those criteria.

[BreathWeapon]

Empty the Warrens is good because it escapes StP and counterspells, and can't be chumpblocked. This card doesn't fit any of those criteria.

You don't get it, he costs 1R and can be cast after another threat in order to prevent a game loss to Force of Will or Stifle, instead of casting Xantid Swarm before a threat and passing the turn.

Look at this hand,

Land Grant
Tinder Wall
Right of Flame
Right of Flame
Lotus Petal
Burning Wish
Storm Entity

Either one of these two lines will occur against Force of Will,

Lotus Petal-> Right of Flame -> Right of Flame (Force of Will) and now Land Grant for Taiga -> Tinder Wall -> Storm Entity for a 7/7 Haste (two turn clock)

Lotus Petal-> Right of Flame -> Right of Flame -> Burning Wish (Force of Will) and now Land Grant for Taiga -> Tinder Wall -> Storm Entity for a 8/8 Haste (two turn clock)

That leaves them one out, Swords to Plowshares, and two turns to find it (not counting chump blocks) instead of casting Xantid Swarm, getting it Force of Willed and allowing them to bring Stifle online.

Think of him as pro-active disruption that doesn't require the deck to pass the turn, not a threat that the deck is going to use to win the game in and of itself; altho' it will be used to win the game after the Force of Will and it can be used as a win condition if the deck is forced to.

Living Wish has been begging for a creature that doesn't require LED to be cast and can be used to win the game, and at 2RG that's an absolute bargain, because Living Wish can round out it's curve 8 mana for Minion of the Wastes, 7 mana for Magus of the (Future Sight) and 4 mana for Storm Entity.

Also, at that casting cost, Null Rod and Chalice of the Void are so laughable that I would at least replace Shattering Spree with Storm Entity in the SB and bring it in against Faerie Stompy etc.

This card is amazing.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Why on Earth do you want to run Living Wish in a combo deck? Why would you run more of these when you don't even run a full set of Tendrils + Empty the Warrens? When is this ever going to be better than other kill conditions that you're already cutting down on to fit in more card draw + mana, as you have to in order for Storm to be any good?

[BreathWeapon]

Why on Earth do you want to run Living Wish in a combo deck? Why would you run more of these when you don't even run a full set of Tendrils + Empty the Warrens? When is this ever going to be better than other kill conditions that you're already cutting down on to fit in more card draw + mana, as you have to in order for Storm to be any good?

Because it's Goblin Charbelcher based combo, which can't use Tendrils of Agony, because you already run a full set of Empty the Warrens and Burning Wish, because you already run Living Wish for Ancient Tomb, Goblin Welder, Elvish Scrapper, Elvish Lyrist or for Minion of the Wastes or Magus of the [Future Sight] with Lion's Eye Diamond and because the deck is MAXED out on all of its threats, mana and needs to find filler?

[xsockmonkeyx]

Its a storm spell that gets stopped by a single counter or removal spell. Does that not nix one of the strongest perks of playing storm combo?

[BreathWeapon]

Its a storm spell that gets stopped by a single counter or removal spell. Does that not nix one of the strongest perks of playing storm combo?

It's not a "win condition," it's a secondary threat cast after the primary threat is countered to continue to apply pressure, replacing the Xantid Swarm that require the deck to Time Walk the opponent into Stifle and Pithing Needle or Meddling Mage and Null Rod etc.

Both die to Swords to Plowshares, but Storm Entity doesn't die to direct damage and isn't dead against aggro.

Instead of protecting your threats, you're multiplying them, which is theoretically superior.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Because it's Goblin Charbelcher based combo, which can't use Tendrils of Agony, because you already run a full set of Empty the Warrens and Burning Wish, because you already run Living Wish for Ancient Tomb, Goblin Welder, Elvish Scrapper, Elvish Lyrist or for Minion of the Wastes or Magus of the [Future Sight] with Lion's Eye Diamond and because the deck is MAXED out on all of its threats, mana and needs to find filler?


I strongly suspect that if I asked you to make up an actual list that's actually supposed to work on this premise, you would stop responding, so I'm going to do that. It is inconceivable that 3 Empty the Warrens, 4 Burning Wish, 4 Goblin Charbelcher and 4 Infernal Tutor isn't enough to win with, and that if it isn't, Tendrils of Agony wouldn't be vastly superior.

[Cait_Sith]

Instead of protecting your threats, you're multiplying them, which is theoretically superior.

I Wrath of God your theory. And Thresh laughs at it.

Also, a 7/7 or an 8/8 is NOT a two turn clock. It is a 3 turn clock.

Also, outs it leaves them, Swords, Condemn, Bounce, Ghostly Prison/Propaganda, another Force, Daze, and then random stuff you won't see often.

[BreathWeapon]

I strongly suspect that if I asked you to make up an actual list that's actually supposed to work on this premise, you would stop responding, so I'm going to do that. It is inconceivable that 3 Empty the Warrens, 4 Burning Wish, 4 Goblin Charbelcher and 4 Infernal Tutor isn't enough to win with, and that if it isn't, Tendrils of Agony wouldn't be vastly superior.

See all of the other Belcher threads on TMD, SCG and TheSource to get updated, and for the last time it isn't a win condition it's pseudo-disruption.

I've had this list since (your) last night,

MD (Post boarded)

4 Goblin Charbelcher
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Burning Wish All Non-Black Threats Maxed
4 Living Wish

3 Storm Entity Test Card

4 Seething Song
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Right of Flame
4 Tinder Wall

4 Simian Spirit Guide All Non-Black Mana Maxed
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox

4 Land Grant
1 Taiga

SB

4 Xantid Swarm (Not a Living Wish target)
1 Minion of the Wastes
1 Storm Entity
1 Goblin Welder
1 Elvish Scrapper
1 Elvish Lyrist
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Deconstruct
2 Open Slots

Start with Storm Entity in hand and then test it against any aggro-control deck, Threshold, Faerie Stomy or Fish etc. on the play and on the draw (I imagine they'll probably board out Swords to Plowshares, but leave them in if you want to be critical).

It has some bad synergy with Lion's Eye Diamond, unless you can cast it and get people to counter it before you cast a Wish, and sometimes you don't have the 2 mana to spare, but when it works it works.

Edit: There are also some weird hands where the deck just end up spending 1R, 1R and 1G for a Hasted 4/4 and 6/6 and just beats down which are kind of cool, as well as hand where it draws 2 of them and/or hands where it draws one and Empty the Warrens.

Infernal Tutor is garbage, because it's black, requiring another land and mana fixers, and it has no non "All In" tutor applications. There's nothing wrong with Living Wish in combo, it' been used before in Gamekeeper and Aluren.

I'm not certain if I would MD it or SB it, but it definitely has some serious potential.

[BreathWeapon]

I Wrath of God your theory. And Thresh laughs at it.

Also, a 7/7 or an 8/8 is NOT a two turn clock. It is a 3 turn clock.

Also, outs it leaves them, Swords, Condemn, Bounce, Ghostly Prison/Propaganda, another Force, Daze, and then random stuff you won't see often.

It has Haste.

You can't cast a Wrath of God before turn 3, Daze can't be cast on the draw and Belcher draws another card (mana source) when it's on the draw, it dies to all of the same cards Xantid Swarm does, no one MDs bounce, it's better against Engineered Plague, Engineered Explosives, Pyroclasm than Empty the Warrens, it's better against direct damage than Xantid Swarm, It's better against Null Rod and Chalice of the Void than anything else, I could theoretically draw the two mana sources to pay for Ghostly Prison or Propaganda before it's cast, and I already said it's probably worse against Stifle. So, what does that really leave? Chump blocking into mass removal? Maybe Landstill or Threshold could do it.

If control draws 2 Force of Wills, It doesn't make a difference what card that is, both decks are going into top deck mode.

[Cavius The Great]

The deck looks solid Breathweapon. Have you thought of maindecking Goblin Welder? I'm just curious why you excluded them from the MD. You probably have a logical explanation for doing so.

[BreathWeapon]

The deck looks solid Breathweapon. Have you thought of maindecking Goblin Welder? I'm just curious why you excluded them from the MD. You probably have a logical explanation for doing so.

Yeah, I use to use Goblin Welder all the time, but the problem was that it required an artifact to return Goblin Charbelcher and it couldn't protect the other threats, so I decided to reverse the order of my disruption an play Xantid Swarm instead, Time Walking the opponent into his turn but protecting all of my threats and not requiring an artifact.

After Storm Entity tho', if you can consistently cast it along side another threat, it should be "theoretically" better than Xantid Swarm because it isn't dead against aggro and you don't have to pass the turn against control.

It's sort of like one of those ballistic Russian missiles that split off into additional missiles instead of using counter measures to protect a single missile, theoretically the impact isn't going to be as large or as accurate when it hits, but at least you know it's going to hit no matter what missile defense system the other guy is using.

I think people are knee jerking at the card because they aren't familiar with the game theory behind it.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

See all of the other Belcher threads on TMD, SCG and TheSource to get updated, and for the last time it isn't a win condition it's pseudo-disruption.

Okay, I'm updated. Apparently you and one or two other people go around posting up lists of Belcher with Living Wish while never actually posting any positive results in tournaments, legitimate testing reports, or even bothering to explain to people who ask why Living Wish actually doesn't suck in Belcher despite all instinct to the contrary.

If it's disruption, just run fucking Duress and save yourself three or four mana.



Start with Storm Entity in hand and then test it against any aggro-control deck, Threshold, Faerie Stomy or Fish etc. on the play and on the draw (I imagine they'll probably board out Swords to Plowshares, but leave them in if you want to be critical).

No. I don't know how often I have to explain this, but you don't get to post bad ideas without any valid defense and then tell other people that they have to test it before they can say anything. Post some results, or, failing that, do some testing and explain why you think the card works in the deck.


Infernal Tutor is garbage, because it's black, requiring another land and mana fixers, and it has no non "All In" tutor applications. There's nothing wrong with Living Wish in combo, it' been used before in Gamekeeper and Aluren.

Infernal Tutor has posted serious tournament results, repeatedly. Your suggestion hasn't. Erego, the burden is on you to prove that you're right that Black is terrible for storm combo and that Living Wish is the way to go.

[lukatron2]

Breathweapon I think you are forgeting something...Yes Storm Entity has haste and can get pretty big but he doesn't even have trample and can be chumpblocked easily and stalled untill they find swords or whatever Swords IS the most commonly played removal spell in the format...goblins doesn't care about storm elemental...they will play a matron, get what they need and continue to lay down goblins (chumpblocking with the more useless ones or the ones that have done there job I.E. matron,ringleader) and then just overwhelm you...people are making the card seem a lot more "broken" then it really is...

[BreathWeapon]

Okay, I'm updated. Apparently you and one or two other people go around posting up lists of Belcher with Living Wish while never actually posting any positive results in tournaments, legitimate testing reports, or even bothering to explain to people who ask why Living Wish actually doesn't suck in Belcher despite all instinct to the contrary.

If it's disruption, just run fucking Duress and save yourself three or four mana.




No. I don't know how often I have to explain this, but you don't get to post bad ideas without any valid defense and then tell other people that they have to test it before they can say anything. Post some results, or, failing that, do some testing and explain why you think the card works in the deck.



Infernal Tutor has posted serious tournament results, repeatedly. Your suggestion hasn't. Erego, the burden is on you to prove that you're right that Black is terrible for storm combo and that Living Wish is the way to go.

I am not talking about TES, or Tendrils based storm combo, I am talking about Belcher that uses storm as a secondary mechanic.

Belcher with Infernal Tutor hasn't produced tournament results since 2005, and the last tournament results posted on Belcher didn't use Infernal Tutor at all; the deck had a total of 4 black cards.

Living Wish has been in Belcher since its inception in Vintage and 1.5, on precedence alone the card is justified, and I've gone to great lengths to explain to people that the function of Living Wish is to tutor for Ancient Tomb to net one mana over two turns, tutor for Goblin Welder after a Force of Will and serve as a third win condition with Lion's Eye Diamond and Minion of the Wastes.

Black is bad in Belcher because it adds a second land, resulting in failed Belcher activations, and it either requires mana filters or sub-par black tutors and disruption in order to increase the odds of being able to imprint a black card on Chrome Mox.

I did post a good idea, I did post a valid defense, I did do testing, I can't post results based on a card that isn't in print and I have posted results for Belcher with Living Wish, Lion's Eye Diamond -> Minion of the Wastes in the past circa 2004/5 (I have to dig for it) and I don't post tournament results in English because I'm in Europe.

These are some of the other testing hands I have had,

Storm Entity
Storm Entity
Living Wish
Tinder Wall
Right of Flame
Land Grant
Chrome Mox

Chrome Mox:Living Wish, Tinder Wall, Land Grant for Taiga, Right of Flame, Storm Entity for 5/5, Storm Entity for 6/6 and the opponent scoops with Stifle and Null Rod in hand.

Opponent plays Island go,

Storm Entity
Empty the Warrens
Seething Song
Simian Spirit Guide
Tinder Wall
Land Grant
Land Grant
Chrome Mox

Chrome Mox:Land Grant, Tinder Wall, Simian Spirit Gude, Seething Song, Empty the Warrens (Stifled) Land Grant for Taiga and Storm Entity for 7/7 and the opponent can't reach Threshold and burn out the Storm Entity in time.

Opponent plays Pithing Needle naming Goblin Charbelcher go,

Storm Entity
Living Wish
Lion's Eye Diamond
Lion's Eye Diamond
Desperate Ritual
Tinder Wall
Lotus Petal
Land Grant

Lion's Eye Diamond, Lion's Eye Diamond, Lotus Petal, Tinder Wall, Desperate Ritual, Land Grant for Taiga, Storm Entity for 8/8, Living Wish sacrificing both Lion's Eye Diamonds in response for Minion of the Wastes 14/14; opponent Swords to Plowshares Minion of the Wastes on the following turn but fails to stop Storm Entity, he had Tividar's Crusade and Counterspell in hand.

Opponent casts Pithing Needle on Goblin Charbelcher and Chalice of the Void at 0

Storm Entity
Living Wish
Seething Song
Right of Flame
Tinder Wall
Taiga
Lion's Eye Diamond
Elvish Spirit Guide (top deck)

Taiga, Tinder Wall, Right of Flame, Seething Song, Elvish Spirit Guide, Living Wish for Storm Entity, Storm Entity for 5/5, Storm Entity for 6/6 and Faerie Stompy scoops.

Storm Entity
Burning Wish
Lion's Eye Diamond
Tinder Wall
Elvish Spirit Guide
Lotus Petal
Lotus Petal

Elvish Spirit Guide, Tinder Wall, Lotus Petal, Lotus Petal, Lion's Eye Diamond, Storm Entity for 5/5, Burning Wish sacrificing Lion's Eye Diamond in response for black, Cruel Bargain into Land Grant, Goblin Charbelcher, Seething Song and Chrome Mox, I Land Grant for Taiga, Chrome Mox:Seething Song and the game results in Storm Entity getting Swords to Plowshared and Goblin Charblecher getting Counter Spelled (still wasn't a bad hand tho', Xantid Swarm would have lost to)

Burning Wish
Empty the Warrens
Empty the Warrens
Desperate Ritual
Lion's Eye Diamond
Simian Spirit Guide
Chrome Mox

Chrome Mox:Empty the Warrens, Simian Spirit Guide, Desperate Ritual, Lion's Eye Diamond, Burning Wish sacrificing Lion's Eye Diamond in response for blue, Diminishing Returns with 0 floating into,

Storm Entity
Goblin Charbelcher
Seething Song
Tinder Wall
Simian Spirit Guide
Lotus Petal
Land Grant

Lotus Petal, Tinder Wall, Simian Spirit Guide, Seething Song, Goblin Charbelcher (Force of Will) Land Grant for Taiga, Storm Entity for 11/11 and the opponent manages to chump block for three turns until he finds a Swords to Plowshares, I still manage to win with an Empty the Warrens for 3.

[BreathWeapon]

Breathweapon I think you are forgeting something...Yes Storm Entity has haste and can get pretty big but he doesn't even have trample and can be chumpblocked easily and stalled untill they find swords or whatever Swords IS the most commonly played removal spell in the format...goblins doesn't care about storm elemental...they will play a matron, get what they need and continue to lay down goblins (chumpblocking with the more useless ones or the ones that have done there job I.E. matron,ringleader) and then just overwhelm you...people are making the card seem a lot more "broken" then it really is...

It isn't in the deck for aggro, it's in the deck for aggro-control and control, and aggro-control tends to SB out it's Swords to Plowshares against combo. These things are so insane in combo, after a Draw 7 the're a one turn clock that costs 1R.

Edit: The two open slots in the SB are Cruel Bargain and Magus of the Jar.

[xsockmonkeyx]

I think that this guy is useful as a Wish target suppliment due to his low CC and relative synergy with a Belcher type shell. However, I dont see him as a viable main option because I dont see him being effective against as many decks as ETW is. Plus, the fact still stands that losing most/all your hand to a single StP is sucktacular.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I am not talking about TES, or Tendrils based storm combo, I am talking about Belcher that uses storm as a secondary mechanic.

Oh, then we should just stop. Empty the Warrens is a much more efficent kill condition than Belcher, and should be the primary focus of the deck, not a fallback plan.

This card is worse than either.


Belcher with Infernal Tutor hasn't produced tournament results since 2005, and the last tournament results posted on Belcher didn't use Infernal Tutor at all; the deck had a total of 4 black cards.

Of course, it's completely facetious, because at 4 Burning Wish 3 Empty the Warrens, your focus is on that card over Belcher. And if you don't hide behind pretending you're playing Belcher, we can look at other fast storm decks and see, wow, actually, we have tons of promising tournament results with black in the deck and none with Living Wish.


Black is bad in Belcher because it adds a second land, resulting in failed Belcher activations, and it either requires mana filters or sub-par black tutors and disruption in order to increase the odds of being able to imprint a black card on Chrome Mox.

Experience and intuition tell me that Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, Tendrils of Agony and Infernal Tutor aren't subpar or bad. As Belcher is and should be at best a secondary kill, the off-hand chance you'd fizzle a single activation in return for getting a stronger primary path is more important.


I did post a good idea, I did post a valid defense

Where? You said it can net one mana over two turns with Ancient Tomb. Wild Cantor can do that for significantly less mana. These arguments are weak. Why is this better than more card draw or tutoring?


These are some of the other testing hands I have had

As far as I can tell you were playing against some deck that ran blue but no Daze or Force of Will, and maindecked Tivadar's Crusades. Can you understand why I don't take these results seriously?

[BreathWeapon]

Oh, then we should just stop. Empty the Warrens is a much more efficent kill condition than Belcher, and should be the primary focus of the deck, not a fallback plan.

This card is worse than either.



Of course, it's completely facetious, because at 4 Burning Wish 3 Empty the Warrens, your focus is on that card over Belcher. And if you don't hide behind pretending you're playing Belcher, we can look at other fast storm decks and see, wow, actually, we have tons of promising tournament results with black in the deck and none with Living Wish.



Experience and intuition tell me that Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, Tendrils of Agony and Infernal Tutor aren't subpar or bad. As Belcher is and should be at best a secondary kill, the off-hand chance you'd fizzle a single activation in return for getting a stronger primary path is more important.







As far as I can tell you were playing against some deck that ran blue but no Daze or Force of Will, and maindecked Tivadar's Crusades. Can you understand why I don't take these results seriously?

No one is debating that black isn't good in combo and that Living Wish should be added to black based combo, altho' there are/were tons of promising results with Living Wish based combo when Gamekeeper was Top 8ing in Grand Prixs left and right with out being a significant statistical representation of the field.

Comparing Living Wish to another card and then basing an argument is asinine if that other card isn't a tutor, Living Wish serves several functions in the deck, from acceleration (Wild Cantor doesn't remain on the board and can be removed to Mogg Fanatic and Gempalm Incinerator) win condition (Minion of the Wastes and Storm Entity) engine (Magus of the Jar and Magus of the Future) disruption (Goblin Welder, Wasteland) and removal (Elvish Scrapper, Elvish Lyrist). While yes, one other card can be compared to Living Wish, and indeed, it could be better in one role, no other card, even a black tutor, can compare to the number of functions Living Wish has in this deck.

Experience and Intuition are wrong, black is being dismissed in Belcher in both this format and in Vintage, and while I still believe black isn't bad, I don't believe black is best.

Adding 4 Burning Wish to combo doesn't marginalize the main win condition, TES has (or rather can have at times) more Burning Wish and Empty the Warrens than it has Infernal Tutors and Tendrils of Agony, and Burning Wish is still used in order to assemble the Tendrils of Agony win in the same way Burning Wish is still used to assemble the Goblin Charbelcher win, Burning Wish and Lion's Eye Diamond into either Infernal Tutor or Diminishing Returns and either tutor or draw into the Goblin Charbelcher with mana floating.

Edit: I realize Infernal Tutor is terrible at tutoring for Goblin Charbelcher out of the side board, but that's not the issue at hand.

Living Wish is the same as Burning Wish, while it can be used as an accelerant, disruption, removal or a win condition it can still be used as an engine with Magus of the Jar or Magus of the Future to find another win condition either on the following turn or the same turn.

All of the games I tested were POST BOARD against U/g/w Threshold, U/g/r Threshold, U/g/b Threshold, EBA or Faerie Stompy. I don't bother to test combo pre-board, because 66% of all games are played post-board, and that's when combo is at its worse.

Edit:Daze is terrible against Belcher

Combo is entering a modern era, where it no longer has to use a single win condition or a single engine in order to win, and this is superior to the combo past era, where the opponent's could SB against specific weak points in the deck and take advantage of them. Look at the general effectiveness of non-counter based hate against IGGY POP and non-counter based hate against Belcher, Tormod's Crypt and Meddling Mage are guaranteed to prevent the opponent from comboing out against IGGY POP, and prison pieces are quite effective against it as well, while Pithing Needle, Goblins based removal, Swords to Plowshares and prison pieces have only a fraction of their marginal utility against Belcher because of the substantial diversification of threats.

People are going to have to get it thru' their head that the combo of today, the combo of the future is going to look nothing like the combo of the past, because this "mulitplicity" of effects is diluting the effectiveness of the traditional counter measures of control against combo.

Even Force of Will has to ask itself, "Do I counter the third or fourth mana?"

Combo summer is coming to Columbus.