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iOWN
04-17-2007, 12:13 PM
Narcomoeba 1U
Creature - Illusion

When Narcomoeba is put into your graveyard from your library, you may put it into play.
1/1

The idea is that if you mill yourself, three of these guys will allow you flashback a Dread Returns from your graveyard, essentially for free. In theory, this allows you to return one of those creatures that wins once it hits play. I'm on vacation and currently have nothing to do, so for the past hour or so I've been trying to fit a deck together that wins with this strategy, and have roughly sketched out what the possible components for such a deck could be.

First off, you need a way to get everything into your yard, meaning selfmill (preferably infinite). So far I can only find three efficient ways of doing so, and here they are:

Mill

Dredge - Dredge isn't infinite, but it works. Obviously both of these cards fit right in with Ichorid, but that's besides the point.

Cephalid Breakfast - Cephalid Looter + en-Kors gives you a way to infinitely mill yourself, in two colors, but both creatures are noticeably weak and die to anything that kills Lackey.

Mesmeric Orb - Infy untappers make this instant speed, single card at a time mill. Aphetto Alchemist works, but so does the not-errata'd Basalt Monolith, which keeps it colorless and is not a creature.

Presently, I've found the latter to work best, because it can come out as early as turn two off of accelerated lands. Moving on...

Combo: We need the combo that wins out of the 'yard.

Salvagers - Salvagers + LED + Spellbomb. (Pros: Infinite, LED can discard Moebas that found their way to your hand, combo can be hardcasted, lets you draw cards out of your deck and Orzhov Guildmage can win through Confinement. Cons: Chalice of the Void or Trinisphere kills it, Pithing Needle if it didn't name Monolith, extra mana recquired to return LED if not in hand, disrupted by Orim's Chant, Grace, etc.)

Kiki-Jiki/Hussar - Karmic Guide + Kiki-Jiki + Sky Hussar. (Pros: Chalice and Trinisphere do nothing, infinite, no extra mana, not disrupted by Chant, etc. Cons: Pithing Needle if it didn't name Monolith, can't win through Confinement, uses the combat phase.)

Sutured Ghoul - Sutured Ghoul + 2-3 Fatties. (Pros: Not disrupted by Chalice, Trini, Chant, or Pithing Needle, harder to remove. Cons: Still dies to removal, uses combat phase, dies to Stifle, can be chumped unless you add a fourth dead card.)

Protection

There are two routes to go here; countermagic or discard. Going into countermagic means going into heavy blue, with Force of Will, Daze, and all, but you reap the benefits with blues drawing power and tutors. Disruption keeps in the same color as Dread Returns if you need to hardcast it, Cabal Therapy has flashback and sacs useless creatures, and you get Black's tutors. I'm finding that the two aren't interchangeable, and the whole shell needs to be build around which you choose.

Graveyard toolbox

The most versatile part of this combo is the fact that you have limitless choices as to what to include as a supplement. You have protection in the graveyard, combo helplers and enablers, and perhaps a sidecombo.

Flashback - Ray of Revelation shoots down Confinement, Humility, Worship, and everything. Ancient Grudge hits Pithing Needle and Chalice. Double Krosan Reclamation can return your three card combo + a second Dread Returns if they Crypt in response to you flashing the first one back.

Bridge from Below - A very useful one-of, I've been finding. You have this in yard, sac three Narcomoebas and get three tokens, which allows you to Dread Returns again if they destroy your combo-making creature or if you need to Krosan Reclame your combo back. Also, I guess it's notable that multiples of these produce multiple tokens per 'Moeba. It's possible to make an army of 2/2s, hasted by Anger, but it would dilute the deck with dead draws.

Sideboard slots?

Trinisphere - This could be useful to hate out faster combo, and also as an 'answer' to Extirpate, which completely destroys this. Assuming you use Monolith + Orb, and not Salvagers, you can just tap your Monolith for three mana after milling your entire library, and still be able to pay for Dread Returns without needing lands.

Prismatic Strands - Possibly useful when using Kiki/Hussar.

Gaea's Blessing - Although it could take you a while to sift through the deck over and over while this gets in the way, it works instant speed against Wretch and Crypt, and keeps you from decking yourself. Blessing also opens up the possibility of trying to mill the opponent instead, since you pack some control and they'll be losing most of their deck while you never run out.


Now here's a list I drew up and goldfished a bit on MWS, going blue with Countermagic, Mesmeric Orb + Basalt Monolith, Kiki-Jiki + Sky Hussar + Karmic Guide.

3 Narcomoeba
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Sky Hussar
1 Karmic Guide

4 Brainstorm
4 Intuition
3 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Bridge from Below
2 Dread Return
4 Basalt Monolith
4 Mesmeric Orb
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Krosan Reclamation

4 Chrome Mox
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Crystal Vein
4 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Island

With all those Flashback tools in the Sideboard along with Trinisphere. I made this list trying to incorporate as much of the above as I could, so ended up not going the black route. In black, you instead go with proactive control, get Dark Ritual, can't use Workshop-like lands because you need black mana for discard, and have different tutors. Is black better?

About some choices: Brainstorm allows you to replace Narcomoebas that sneak their way into your hand, and will shuffle them back in place with Fetchlands. Thirst for Knowledge is great because it can either net a card and discard an extra Mox/combo piece, or can get rid of Dread Returns, combo creatures, or Bridge from Below. Intuition is just an all-purpose tutor, and Krosan Reclamation combats graveyard hate (other than Extirpate) and lets you discard/return Narcomoebs in order to get them into play if needed.

Surprisingly, this has put up a fair amount of turn two/three wins when soloing, and not too many problems involving dead cards. I've considered Mystical Tutor to get Intuition and prevent drawing your combo, but I don't like having a tutor that can't directly set up the combo by itself.

The list above is pretty basic and could use a lot of work, but I'd also be pleased to see what other people can come up with either with the same combo, going primarily black, using Salvagers instead, or whatever else.

Maveric78f
04-17-2007, 12:45 PM
where is cabal therapy ?

I would play definitely gaea's blessing in such a deck. But I may be wrong.

Pinder
04-17-2007, 01:08 PM
I was actually brainstorming something along the same lines yesterday, but I didn't have a list drawn up. Nice job.

Anyway, I was thinking Narcomoeba + Bridge from Below + Ancestor's Chosen + Minion of the Wastes. If you can mill for infy, why not just gain 40+ life from saccing 3 Narcomoebas to DReturn Chosen, then use the zombies from BfB to flash back Minion, then pay 20+ when Minion hits the table and swing FTW. It's got just a high enough mana cost to get Dragon Breath for the hasty win. It's essentially the same as Sutured Ghoul, but requires you to run less useless fatties in the maindeck to fuel it. And this combo also happens to gain you 20+ life besides.

Thoughts?

Cavius The Great
04-17-2007, 01:09 PM
Where is Power Artifact to compliment the Monoliths?

Illissius
04-17-2007, 02:15 PM
I also thought of Angry Hermit and Cephalid Breakfast not long after I saw the card. Monolith/Orb is a good find -- is it better than Mizzium/Vault? It's two mana cheaper, but requires you to run a bunch of dead cards to make it work.

The disruptability of the various kills doesn't matter so much when you can Therapy them multiple times before going off (two Breakfast critters + four Moebas = potentially three free Therapies). You also don't have to worry so much about drawing your combo pieces, because you can Therapy yourself. You can play Street Wraiths to fuel the Ghoul. (And pitch to Chrome Mox or Survival, among other tangential benefits).

I'm wondering whether it's worth using green. You're essentially locked into white, blue, and black for your combo pieces and Therapies already. Green gives you your best tutors (Eladamri's Call, Living Wish, Survival of the Fittest, Worldly Tutor), but it's not like the existing three colors don't have options -- Intuition, Dimir Infiltrator, Muddle the Mixture, and Grim Tutor among others. Green is also important for Ray and Grudge, but this is likewise solveable with Riftstone Portal. (You could also skip using White, if you use Trinket Mage -> Shuko instead of the en-Kor dudes, but that's more expensive and fragile due to being sorcery speed -- you can't mill your library in response to removal. This would also let you use the new Wizardcycling guy to find both your pieces.).

I've sketched an initial list, but haven't goldfished it yet. Will post if it works well.

Pinder
04-17-2007, 02:39 PM
The disruptability of the various kills doesn't matter so much when you can Therapy them multiple times before going off (two Breakfast critters + four Moebas = potentially three free Therapies). You also don't have to worry so much about drawing your combo pieces, because you can Therapy yourself. You can play Street Wraiths to fuel the Ghoul. (And pitch to Chrome Mox or Survival, among other tangential benefits).


And if you have a Bridge from Below in the yard, each creature you sac to therapy nets you a 2/2 Zombie (or more, in multiples) for DReturn, giving you as many free Therapies as you need with essentially no drawback to make sure they don't have Swords/Bolt/Force/Whatever right before you go off. And using the Street Wraiths to fuel a Ghoul is all sorts of techy. Nice thought.

Of course, 4 Wraiths is only 12 damage. Perhaps 2 of Laquatus' Champion maindeck as well? That way, you can remove 4 Wraiths + 2 Champion for 24 damage on the swing, and if they have Worship or somesuch nonsense, then you can always remove 1 for 18 damage, then DReturn the other to win through Worship et al.

outsideangel
04-17-2007, 03:43 PM
Why is a large Ghoul better than infinite guys? Especially because you need to run an additional card to give it haste?

Pinder
04-17-2007, 03:57 PM
Why is a large Ghoul better than infinite guys? Especially because you need to run an additional card to give it haste?


You have a point there. And infinite guys = infinite DReturn/Therapy, as well (you've probably already used the therapies, though).

So why does Vintage Ichorid run Ghoul over Kiki-Hussar-Guide? Either way, I would still suggest Champion as a 1-of, just to get through Worship, etc.

Illissius
04-17-2007, 04:15 PM
Ghoul is only 12, but you're running four Moebas, and in Breakfast, a bunch of other small dudes as well. It adds up to over twenty. With Wraiths, the Ghoul kill is only two slots versus three for Kiki/Hussar, so I guess it might come down to whether you want to run Wraiths. (Kiki/Hussar also seems more fragile, but I'm not sure why I think this. Double Fanatic, Siege-Gang?)

BreathWeapon
04-17-2007, 04:59 PM
Goblins will just Gempalm Incinerator Kiki in response and win, I'd go with Ghoul.

The number of dead cards in this deck is surprisingly small all things considered, almost all of the creatures are hard castable and can stand in front of Goblins before you can play Cephalid Illusionist and just win.

I'd go with Green, black doesn't take up a whole lot of space in this deck, you wouldn't even tutor up a block source against any aggro-deck.

rufus
04-17-2007, 05:00 PM
Seems like the card is an auto-kill with things like goblin bombardment, or grinding station, altar of sacrifice, inifinite mana with ashnod's altar or phyrexian altar, infinite life with life chisel, big critter with fallen angel...

z38gm
04-17-2007, 05:15 PM
Seems like the card is an auto-kill with things like goblin bombardment, or grinding station, altar of sacrifice, inifinite mana with ashnod's altar or phyrexian altar, infinite life with life chisel, big critter with fallen angel...

reread the card. "From your library" not from play...

Zilla
04-17-2007, 05:22 PM
Seems like the card is an auto-kill with things like goblin bombardment, or grinding station, altar of sacrifice, inifinite mana with ashnod's altar or phyrexian altar, infinite life with life chisel, big critter with fallen angel...
Narcomoeba :1::u:
Creature - Illusion

When Narcomoeba is put into your graveyard from your library, you may put it into play.
1/1

Illissius
04-17-2007, 05:25 PM
Goblins will just Gempalm Incinerator Kiki in response and win, I'd go with Ghoul.

Therapy solves this. It doesn't solve first turn Lackey into Siege-Gang though, for example. So yeah, I'd still go with Ghoul.

Mordenkain
04-18-2007, 02:31 AM
Imo the list doesnt seem resilient enough to Swords to Plowshares, or in case of kiki/hussar combo, burn and even bounce.
The list have FoW and Daze. If the opposing player supports his Swords with FoWs or the like, your gonna be fucked.
Also, I think the combo overall seems to do to much for what it optains.

Oh btw, TORMOD'S CRYPT! :tongue:

- Mordenkain

ACME_Myst
04-18-2007, 08:33 AM
I just wanted to make clear that if you would play Buried Alive for trips Moeba, all three would come into play..

I don't think it's useful in the proposed list, but realising this trick could benefit another list that wants to abuse the Moeba's.

Just my $0.02

SHeli
04-18-2007, 02:25 PM
Seems like the card is an auto-kill with things like goblin bombardment, or grinding station...

This could, however, be true when you also play Gaeas Blessing in the deck, as you would mill till you put a moeba into play, sacrifice it to goblin bombardment, continue milling till you hit a blessing, shuffle the stuff back and repeat the whole thing. The problem is that if youre a really unlucky person it might happen that you always hit the blessing before the moeba though ;)

Besides, this is a 3 card combo which should definitely be too much, i like the suthured ghoul plan most even though im not sure wether i prefer breakfast or orb, as you can use the breakfast creature to rape the opponents hands with therapies, but on the other hand 2 artifacts is harder to disrupt than two creatures. Another question is wether breakfast needs the moebas at all or if it can just play 1 acorn harvest which doesnt fill so much slots...

I feel like there might be something competetive out there with a mill engine, we just have to find it :>

iOWN
04-18-2007, 03:09 PM
The only thing appealing about Ghoul is that it is not hosed by Needle. Besides that, I'm not seeing why everyone is so scared of removal; if they have Burn, you can Prismatic Strands. Guide (or Salvagers) taps in response to anything other than Swords or destruction. Besides, if they don't trigger Bridge's drawback at the right time, you can just get three Zombie tokens to use a second Dread Returns, meaning Swords is the only piece of removal that poses a threat. Ghoul is just as vulnerable to StP as Kiki-Jiki or Salvagers is.

Survival/Cephalid combo is a really neat idea, but is it better than just Survivaling out the win combo itself and reanimating it? Anyways, it'd be interesting to hear how it works out for you.

Rules question - What are the rulings on controllable but infinitely reusable effects? Specifically, when you have a Gaea's Blessing in your deck, is it possible to say 'do this 100,000,000,000 times until I get these cards in my yard' or do you have to play it out and then get called for stalling?

Pinder
04-18-2007, 04:39 PM
Ghoul is just as vulnerable to StP as Kiki-Jiki or Salvagers is.


Which is to say, not vulnerable at all. Any version of this deck should definitely have therapies, and when you can therapy them 3-4 times right before you go off, you can remove all of the relevant answers they might have in their hand. Either way, Force and StP are the two things I name first whenever I'm therapying for this sort of thing. And after the first Therapy, you know exactly what's in their hand, so you can just therapy out the relevant stuff you see there.




Rules question - What are the rulings on controllable but infinitely reusable effects? Specifically, when you have a Gaea's Blessing in your deck, is it possible to say 'do this 100,000,000,000 times until I get these cards in my yard' or do you have to play it out and then get called for stalling?

There is actually a set of rules for handling infinite loops. I'm too lazy to browse the CR for them, but the jist is thus:

For an infinite loop which depends entirely on the decisions of a single player to continue, the player states a number, and the loop in considered to have happened that number of times (the 'do this 100,000,000,000 times' part). For an infintie loop which depends on the decisions of two or more players to continue, the active player states a number. Then, in APNAP order, each other player whose decisions affect the loop can either agree with the current number, or state a lower number. At the end of everything, the lowest number is counted as the number of times the loop happened.

So, yes, you can say 'I do this X times', but I'm not sure you can say 'I do this until X is in my graveyard'.

iOWN
04-19-2007, 11:18 AM
Which is to say, not vulnerable at all. Any version of this deck should definitely have therapies, and when you can therapy them 3-4 times right before you go off, you can remove all of the relevant answers they might have in their hand. Either way, Force and StP are the two things I name first whenever I'm therapying for this sort of thing. And after the first Therapy, you know exactly what's in their hand, so you can just therapy out the relevant stuff you see there.

Good point. It is starting to seem like a must include. (Don't ask me why I didn't think so before. :P)


There is actually a set of rules for handling infinite loops. I'm too lazy to browse the CR for them, but the jist is thus:

For an infinite loop which depends entirely on the decisions of a single player to continue, the player states a number, and the loop in considered to have happened that number of times (the 'do this 100,000,000,000 times' part). For an infintie loop which depends on the decisions of two or more players to continue, the active player states a number. Then, in APNAP order, each other player whose decisions affect the loop can either agree with the current number, or state a lower number. At the end of everything, the lowest number is counted as the number of times the loop happened.

So, yes, you can say 'I do this X times', but I'm not sure you can say 'I do this until X is in my graveyard'.

Oh, so it would probably mean that you can only do it once or some low number, and assume it to have been done however many times? Either way, Blessing still looks helpful, since like SHeli pointed out, Narcomoeba will still come into play, so you'd have all the Dread Returns and Cabal Therapies you wanted, not needing Bridge from Below.

Mirrislegend
04-19-2007, 05:20 PM
I really like Pinder's idea of milling into Narcomoebas for Dread Return for Ancestors Chosen, with Bridge from Beyond out to make 3 guys from the 'moeba's deaths, then those zombies for a Dread Return for Minion of the Wastes. It's resilient to decks that can handle your final stroke: you have the life buffer to try again.

On the note of trying again, I think the deck should have red in it, for Burning Wish to recur the Returns. I'm sure there are a bajillion other useful targets that I cannot think of off the top of my currenty very groggy head.

Also, going off of iOwn's starting post, I think one of the key protection cards should be Stifle. In his list, for example, it should replace Daze. Stifle is pro-active against so many Legacy cards, giving you the little bit of time you need, and it nullifies much of general GY hate.

Pinder
04-19-2007, 05:30 PM
On the note of trying again, I think the deck should have red in it, for Burning Wish to recur the Returns. I'm sure there are a bajillion other useful targets that I cannot think of off the top of my currenty very groggy head.


Red also give you access to Goblin Lore and that other card that's an exact copy of Goblin Lore. I'm not sure how much that helps,but drawing 4 cards for 2 mana can't be all bad if you go the Dredge route.