[Discussion] Goblin Stax

[Jak]

When I saw AfFOWfinity, it got me thinking of adding chalice to the MD in Goblins to have a great first game against a ton of different decks. I then was looking at the Goblin Fish thread which was an interesting direction for goblins to go. So I though instead just run some Stax cards because they would already work great in the deck. I was thinking of adding these cards:

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Tangle Wire
4 Ancient Tomb

This would definitely take the deck into a different direction, so it would need to completely change the strategy. I think it would help so many MUs like combo and Thresh. Here is my suggested deck list.

Lands
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Taiga
7 Mountain

Artifacts
4 Aether Vial
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere

Goblins
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Goblin Ringleader
3 Siege-Gang Commander

SB
4 Tangle Wire
4 Krosan Grip
7 (Still Deciding)

Now I would like your thounghts on this idea. I think it has alot of possibilities and would like your opinions. Thanks.

[Nihil Credo]

Smokestack should definitely be in the deck. The ability of Goblins to produce a boatload of permanents is invaluable in breaking the card. It's one of the reasons Stax needs to play anti-creature hate (Ghostly Prison, Pyroclasm) in order to have a chance against Goblins game 1.

[Jak]

Yeah I was wanting to get it in, but I didn't want to take the risk of playing it without crucible. Would -3 Ringleaders, +3 Smokestack work?

[Nihil Credo]

I honestly don't know, at least until I play this list. If I had to guess, I'd cut Chalice of the Void; I know it's insanely powerful, but on turn 1 you want to drop a Goblin or Vial, not cut off your beatdown curve. The same decks that get hosed by CotV will get hosed by Trinisphere; you can still SB the Chalices against really fast combo decks

[Illissius]

The idea is cool, but I rather doubt you can just cut four sources of red mana for four Tombs without repercussions.

[Cavius The Great]

I honestly don't know, at least until I play this list. If I had to guess, I'd cut Chalice of the Void; I know it's insanely powerful, but on turn 1 you want to drop a Goblin or Vial, not cut off your beatdown curve. The same decks that get hosed by CotV will get hosed by Trinisphere; you can still SB the Chalices against really fast combo decks

I suggest something like Sphere of Resistance in place of Chalice. That way you have some form of disruption without completely screwing yourself over.

[Deger]

wouldn't trinisphere be really bad..
stax wants turn 1 trinisphere to slow things up and drop prision pieces. Gob's advantage is speed.. it is nice that you can keep dropping perm's but really the speed is better. taking a pure agro deck and mixing it with a Pure Control deck? could be problems...

oh and is the Krosan grip in the SB really worth the addition of the wasteable tiaga along with the port and tomb???

I think it makes the mana base more likley to attack..

but what do I know.

[Sek'Kuar]

When I saw AfFOWfinity, it got me thinking of adding chalice to the MD in Goblins to have a great first game against a ton of different decks.

goblins has pretty much a good first game against every deck with a few exceptions. its one of the benefits of being the best deck in the format. That being said, I think the idea is a great one, something that I've wanted to see done. I personally favor control, so im very excited about the deck.

[Silverdragon]

The Goblin lists I test against run 4 Chalice and 4 Pillars in the sideboard already and they board them in a lot of matches for Fanatics or Incinerators so it's not a far stretch. However maindecking them you weaken the pseudomirror match to almost unwinnable.
Think about how often you'll want that Ancient Tomb on turn one to power out Chalice instead of Aether Vial or Goblin Lackey. With only 11 red sources total in the deck how are you going to play anything resembling a creature without a Vial?
With 4 Chalice, 4 Trini and no way to thin your deck of lands how many Goblins will the average Ringleader reveal?
With no Fetchlands and only 4 Wasteable green manasources how are we supposed to find the answer to Ritual -> Plague or Mox Diamond + Tomb -> Ghostly Prison/Ensnaring Bridge?
This deck already is good against Aggro-Control due to Aether Vial -> Ringleader and simply overwhelming with the horde.
It is already good against other Aggro because well it's Gobbos. They are too much to handle for another Aggro deck.
And it definitely is already good against Control because of Lackey and Vial and Ringleader and Siege Gang Commander and maybe even Piledriver (ok we'll let IBA and Machinus find that out).
So this list is like the sideboarded version for Combo.
Ok no we'll look at the specific hate, you have 4 Chalice and 4 Trini, after board add 4 Tangle Wire.
Chalice for 0 is nice against some fast Tendrils builds (and maybe Salvagerscombo). Chalice for 1 makes your already good Threshold matchup better, can randomly screw another Comboplayer and makes further Vials and Lackeys useless. Chalice for 2 needs 4 mana so either 3rd or 4th turn wasted stopping Counterspell? while still relying on your Lackeys and Vials to power out Piledriver. Chalice for 3 is 6 mana that could also be spend playing more Goblins, locking opponent down with Port and Waste so he doesn't have the mana for a Wrath effect ...
So Chalice can only be set at 0 or 1 During your second turn effectively to not hose yourself. This is still pretty good against Thresh and Combo so I won't dismiss it. (In fact as for boarding it's still a strong option however you don't need Ancient Tomb that much to include 4.)
Trinisphere is 3 Mana itself so without Tomb it comes down turn 3, when you are either already dead or your opponent has ways to deal with it. Again you should have Vial or Lackey already in play or you'll be slowed down as much as them and some Loam decks have a good chance of destroying your manabase at this point and lock you out simply because you only have 7 non Wasteable sources and they only need 1 more mana for their LftL.
Tangle Wire in the board looks really bad again because I don't see a matchup that is really unfavourable and could be improved to a relevant part by these. Against Combo they rarely have a lot of stuff out they want untapped and will gladly see you tapping down lands to be able to attack or tap down guys to be able to play more guys.Tangle Wire against Aggro you are both just timewalking with them being able to sneak more small critters onto the table and drawing more burn. Against Control it is actually good but you know what? 1st Turn Lackey/Vial -> Ringleader later are already matchwinners in that matchup.
So the question is: Is it worth taking out some of the Tribe for Maindeckhate against Combo and Thresh (and most of the time bad one at that) for a weaker mirrormatch (weaker Ringleaders) and a less stable Manabase in general?
At least Trinisphere could be changed to Pyrostatic Pillar and some Tombs to Mountains or Fetches.
Btw: as a Staxplayer this change could really help my Goblinsmatchup so go for it champ^^

edit: Some of the reasons Goblins is that good are that they play enough Goblins to often get an Ancetral out of Ringleader, Their manabase is so solid it can play Gobs and still Waste/Port some lands, Lackey is like a Red Dark Ritual when he connects, You have almost no way of stopping a vialed Creature from coming into play...

[bigbear102]

Yeah I was wanting to get it in, but I didn't want to take the risk of playing it without crucible. Would -3 Ringleaders, +3 Smokestack work?

Taking out your card advantage engine is not a good idea if you are adding Smokestack. I would personally cut Chalice out of the main for reasons already mentioned. With Smokestack you really won't need Grip either, so the splash can go. Being able to ramp a stack will take care of whatever permanents are hurting you most of the time.
Cutting one of the colorless sources for another red source also seems like a good idea. Having more colorless than red with only 4 vials is just waiting to get boned, especially if you keep it at 4 taiga. I would definately want at least 14 red sources out of 23 land.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

It seems like weakening the mirror to improve the combo match-up is a bad idea.

Have you thought about just trying a conversional sideboard? CotV, Trinisphere, Tomb and Grip/Tangle Wire/Smokestack? I think that'd be interesting, but I doubt such a radical shift to the MD is a good idea.

[JohnnyCage]

In all honesty it seems like your taking the best tier one deck and making it a tier two one, mostly to help combo matchup. Alot of times goblins can just outspeed combo anyways, so in my opinion, it doesn't seem like a great idea.