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Clark Kant
04-25-2007, 11:32 PM
This is the deck I've been developing and testing in my playgroup for the past week and a half. Preliminary testings seems to suggest that it's exceptionally strong against virtually everything.

Since the testing is still in it's early stages, I can't yet put up specific matchup percentages yet.

But I have to say, based on what I've seen this deck do so far, I can't help but be convinced that this or some very close derivitive of this is maybe poised to be the next big aggro deck in legacy. Plus it's honestly the funnest aggro deck I've ever played.

I strongly recommend people proxy up the build below before criticizing it as I can pretty much guarentee that you will completely misunderstand how the deck functions or plays out if you don't play atleast a few games with it. I also don't recommend trusting the MWS Shuffler to get valid testing percentages (I absolutely refuse to play on MWS for this reason, and because it's no where near as fun imho) but if you don't have the cards and can't proxy them in your playgroup, that's an alternative too.

Your threatbase + Heartwood Storyteller + Magus of the Moon + Chalice of the Void are all downright broken and the perfect combination of creatures to severely impede virtually every other deck in the format.

Vaka Beatz 04/30/07

2 Taiga
9 Forest - Ancient Tomb
4 Mountain
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Chrome Mox - Possibly Llanowar Elves
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Umezawe's Jitte
4 Magma Jet

4 Magus of the Moon
4 Call of the Herd
4 Troll Ascetic
4 Burning Tree Shaman
3 Iwamori of Open Fist

Sideboard:
2 Metagame Slot
2 Trinisphere
2 Pyroclasm
2 Rough/Tumble
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Krosan Grip

I'm now running 2 Rough/Tumble in place of 2 Pyroclasm, as both cards are very similar but Tumble can sometimes be helpful versus Fairie Stompy, Decree of Justicle and Exalted Angel. Most of the time though, it just acts as another Pyroclasm effect versus goblins and affinity as you don't like siding in the card into matchups that are already favorable just to have one more way to deal with a specific threat. Atleast with Pyroclasm, when you attack with what is always a larger number of threats, when they attempt to block with their beefier flyers, a Pyroclasm or Magma Jet can kill the flyers much faster than having to wait till you reach six mana, while simultanously killing Cloud of Fairies too. Thank you aisman for the idea regardless.

The two metagame slots can be occupied by an additonal Pyrostatic Pillar and Trinisphere or some of the many other very solid anticombo cards available including Red Elemental Blast (to protect your artifacts from getting bounced back if you can't set a Chalice at two), Ground Seal, Root Maze among many many others if you expect lots of combo, Flametoungue Kavu if you expect Fairie Stompy or nongoblins aggro, or additional Pyroclasm if Goblins is such a large part of your meta that you don't mind dedicating a few more slots to an already very favorable matchup.

The deck isn't 100% optimal yet imo, the most prominent example of which is that the manabase may support a few Ancient Tombs (acceleration) or Wastelands, and this has yet to be tested, but even at this stage of it's development, the build proves to be extremely competitive having favorable matchups against a huge number of top tier decks, all sorts of random jank, and no real horrible matchups that I have run across.

Recently, I've come to the conclusion that Heartwood Storyteller's bonus verus combo (letting you get Pyroclasm versus Warren tokens, letting you get the spirit guides and magma jet needs for you to win in response to their tendrils, provided they already took damage during thier combo to pyrostatic pillar etc.) don't occur often enough and testing shows that Call of the Herd has a significant advantage against both control and aggro (initially, I thought both cards would be about equally good vs. control). So I opted to switch over to Call of the Herd. The initial reasons for running Heartwood Storyteller/Ohran Viper are explained on the second page.

Krosan Grip is absolutely key in letting you be able to slaugther deed, disk/keg, equipment, pithing needle on your jitte, survival, ghostly prison, confinement, crucible, shackles, lion's eye diamond and so much other randomness. So now, I'm up to 4 as opposed to 3, and am seriously considering maindecking it.

I know some of you commented on replacing Iwamori. In a related matter, do you guys have any suggestions on with what? How do you feel about Rumbling Slum? Losing trample is too big a loss imho. But Slum does have an ability that wins games preboard against Ghostly Prison and other randomness. Stax is not a deck I've ever had a problem with as they're not nearly as effective at attacking my mana base in my experience, but Vaka Pox has occasionally managed to stablize against this deck at a low life with Ghostly Prison combined with 22 assymetric land destruction effects. And while ESGs have occasionally saved my butt in this situation, you don't always draw enough. I am not at the point of actually wanting to try it. But if I get enough input saying that I should run it, I will.

I am running Pyrostatic Pillar over Red Elemental Blast because Pillar has, to my surprise actually, been absolutely astounding versus storm based combo decks.

The criticism below that the original build was lacking in removal did have merit, which has since been fixed. It helps to have some removal as a nice combat trick. The main problem with removal was that Chalice was so often set to 1 which is counterproductive with Lightning Bolt. That's why I ended up replacing all the Ohran Vipers/Wild Mongrels, along with an Iwamori, with Magma Jet, which aren't hurt by chalice and do give this deck some nice card selection.

Chrome Mox has an advantage over Llanowar Elves in that it lets you cast Chalice turn one without making cards in your hand dead. But the advantage of Elf being able to come down turn one and carry Jitte can't be ignored.

However, the number of combo decks where a Chalice at 0 is actually a superior play to Chalice at 1, seems to be on the rise and if the trend continues, it will cause me to reconsider my initial stance on Llnowar Elves.

The Sprit Guides are awesome in that they counter Daze, let you play Chalice or Pyrostatic Pillar turn one, can be equipped to chrome mox etc. All while doubling down as additonal threats versus control decks.

That said, if later on, I come to run Llanowar Elves over Chrome Mox despite it's poor interaction with Chalice as a way to abuse Jitte more (a serious change I"m considering), I would also cut 2 Shimian Spirit Guides (since you no longer imprint them to Chrome Mox and you have Elves to abuse Jitte with) for better threats (probably Ohran Viper or maybe Tarmogoyf over Wild Mongrel, because Elves trade with Lackey in a pinch, and without Chrome Mox, that's one less card for Mongrel to eat mid game), or run maindeck Krosan Grips or something.

What I really needed was a good 2cc card to round the curve a bit. It was Wild Mongrel, but now, it's Magma Jet. And it may later on end up being Tarmogoyf.

The additional blood moon in the sideboard were really popular with me because loam decks were so popular in my local playgroup. Something that has rapidly come to change over the past week thanks to this deck . So I had come to replace them with additional Krosan Grip and more Pyroclasm, as Grip is astoundingly good at taking out so much randomness... Standstill, Disk, Ghostly Prison, Confinement, Jitte, Survival etc etc. And Pyroclasm slaugters goblins esp given that almost all your threats are bigger than them. Plus it gives an exceptionally strong bomb versus Warrens tokens (which seem to be the kill card of choice nowadays for some odd reason) I just updated the build with my current sideboard.

You're not supposed to overstretch with Spirit Guides versus everything. If you use up spirit Guides to cast a threat a turn earlier every single game, you are playing the deck wrong and you really hurt your odds versus decks heavy on countermagic and removal (decks that are otherwise very favorable).

You use Spirit Guides up to cast a bomb; Magus turn one vs. 43 lands and other counterless loam variants; Trinisphere, Chalice, Pillar etc turn one versus iggy pop, tes; magma jet or chalice versus goblins, burn etc. Or occasionally can even use them to cast Iwamori turn two (using Chrome Mox) against decks that have no countermagic at all, and whose only game plan is to race you (burn, combo etc). This is assuming that you mulled into a turn one chalice or trinisphere or atleast pillar versus combo like you should have.

Against decks that play lots of countermagic and removal, you're usually (not always depending on your opening hand) better off playing these out as threats turn three and on.

That way they can only kill and counter so many of your threats, and now have to counter Jitte too. And eventually will have to deal with them when they start eating away at their life total, and you WILL be able to resolve a relevent chalice at 2, or Heartwood, or Troll Ascetic or Burning Tree Shaman, or Iwamori, or Magus or something as a result. Against landstill, you have very good odds, but you have to play it like a battle of attrition.

Strategically, think of it as a mix of Zilla Stompy and Fairie Stompy, though it looks nothing like either. Instead of using Ancient Tombs and City of Traitors to get to 3 mana turn one or two, this deck uses ESGs and Llanowar Elves to get to 3 mana on turn 2. And thus, the deck gets away with a curve that lets you abuse Chalice. Against aggro, burn, thresh etc, you can easily lay down Chalice first turn. Against control, you can very often very easily lay down Magus of the Moon turn one before most of your opponent's countermagic comes online. If they have a FoW, that's fine, you have many other creatures that they also almost autolose to.

It has a slightly unfavorable matchup versus combo game one unless it has a Chalice in the opening hand but it gets very favorable postboard. If you actually know that you're facing combo game one, you have no problem mulliganing into a Chalice and laying it down turn one.

Aluren to abuse Ohran Viper and Heartwood Storyteller was tested and just made the deck too swingy. Some games, you do cast Aluren turn two or turn three and lay down 3-4 creatures along with it, draw more cards each turn with Viper and Heartwood and just overwhelm your opponent. But just as many times, Aluren doesn't do much of anything for you. So it seemed like you were better off with a 5/5 trampler instead.

Aether Vial too seemed like it had potential. But it forcing the number of dead draws with a Chalice at 1 and eating up critical creature slots got the card booted from the list.

When I was running threats in place of Magma Jet, Ohran Viper was superior to Wild Mongrel except that it pulled your 3cc curve up too high imo. Mongrel is better against fast decks, and Tarmogoyf was better against slow/control deck sexcept for one distinct situation. A first turn Chrome Mox, Land, Mongrel opening will convince most people that you're playing madness, and many good players will use up their removal on the Mongrel before your next main phase (or if you're really lucky, use up their FoW on it) in hopes of cutting you off from your only madness outlet. This leaves you free and clear to cast that Magus of the Moon or Chalice of the Void (if they used up their Force).

Matchups

The point of the deck is to eat bad mana bases and good mana curves for breakfast all while sometimes drawing tons of cards. And both fortunately happen to be extremely prevalent in the current meta. There honestly aren't many unfavorable matchups.

Fairie Stompy - The main difficulty versus this deck is that this is the one deck (excluding Prison which is a great matchups), that Chalice at one or two doesn't really impact. Magus slows them down by a turn sometimes but never color screws them. And they can play 4/3 flyers on the first turn or 3/4 flyers on the second turn that fly over your creatures, and get equipped to deal lots of damage. Their clock is a turn or faster than yours esp if they FoW your biggest threat, which usually lets them ignore whatever you're doing. Regardless, F. Stompy is a very inconsistent deck that derives a huge chunk of it's power by abusing Chalice (something you don't care about), FTK and Grip is great against them postboard and they'll get plenty of slow or mana light hands that you will win. It's probably about even or slightly to your favor but I would have to play more matchups to be sure.

Goblins - This matchup seems to be to your favor. On the one hand, their curve is varied enough that Chalice doesn't win games by itself. And Magus does nothing really. You also won't be drawing too many cards as they play more creatures than you do. Nevertheless, all your creatures are plenty fat, pyroclasm is an absolute massive bomb versus them postboard, your manabase is almost completely invulnerable to Wastelands and unless they get a lightning fast opening or you're aren't able to answer lackey, your threats usually just overpower their threats. With so much acceleration you have absoutely no problem casting Magma Jet or Burning Tree Shaman or any your high toughness creatures on your first turn and that alone is enough to stop goblins from attacking with any of their creatures for fear of losing them. Postboard, this fact will alone win you the game as it buys you enough time to find Pyroclasm or Jitte.

Those were literally the only two decks I've come across so far that aren't severely impeded by Chalice and your very extensive utility threatbase.

Walking Blood Moon + Drawing Tons of Cards Versus Control + Untargetable Regenerators + Chalice at 2 + Jitte. There's just too many threats for slower/control decks to counter/remove. Most loam decks, Threshold decks, 3c/4c landstill and a whole bunch of other decks that compose probably 40% of the field are built upon hideous manabases that collapse under resolved Magus of the Moon, especially if's resolved turn one or two. All your Spirit Guides function as additional threats that eat away at their life total. In addition, few control decks are equiped to deal with a resolved Troll Ascetic.

Chalice is what finally pushed the deck over the top, giving you an exceptional matchup against decks such as Burn and Tendrils Combo that were uneffected by Blood Moon and before just ignored your threats and outright won faster than you. Chalice + Trini + Pillar give you a favorable matchup versus combo postboard (and a very winnable one preboard due to the frequency of the first turn Chalice play). These decks were the bane of traditional RG beats, and Chalice along with the sideboard give this deck a favorable matchup versus all of them. If it wasn't for combo, Chalice would be cut and the deck would replace a whole lot cards and end up with a build similar to Zilla Stompy. But Chalice proved itself again and again not just as anticombo tool, but on average a 4 for 1 trade versus many matchups if it resolves early.

You have a great matchup versus pretty much every variations of aggro because all your creatures are fatter than most aggro decks, a Chalice at one or two really screws a lot of aggro decks over, Grip gives you the answer you need versus 4 Jitte + 4 SOFI.decs and Pyroclasm, Jitte and FTK to a much lesser extent are exceptional gamewinning bombs versus goblins too.

Prison too is a matchup that you can look forward to as its very winnable preboard and becomes very favorable postboard thanks to Krosan Grip, your large number of mana sources and your huge permanent count. Plus Heartwood draws you boatloads of cards. And you do have a very fast clock compared to them.

BreathWeapon
04-26-2007, 12:56 AM
I have something similar on TMD that uses the eight Spirit Guides and eight 2 Mana Lands called Spirit Stompy, and curving out at three is a lot easier with the 2 Mana Lands instead of using the Elves, and the deck's creatures are larger in the 3/4cc range instead of the 2/3cc range. I'd consider using the 2 Mana Lands and Fallow Wurm, Thundering Wurm and Call of the Herd, because it's not difficult to support the "discard a land" draw back in a deck that gets 2 Mana Lands, and I think Call of the Herd is just better than Burning Tree Shaman.

Clark Kant
04-26-2007, 01:04 AM
I couldn't find your build, though I would like to see it, it sounds pretty cool. I am hoping you run Chalice as the card is essential to beating combo, and is great versus everything.

Regardless...

4 Heartwood Storyteller

4 Magus of the Moon

and

4 Chalice of the Void

utterly own pretty much every deck in the format. And this deck can play any of them turn one. And keep the fat coming.

Troll Ascetic in addition is damn near impossible for any deck to get rid of.

The point of this deck isn't to cast vanilla 3/3s and 4/4s. It's to cast creatures that significantly impede your opponents game plan, and force them to deal with them right away.

That's why the deck can't support 2 mana lands, because they can't cast 1GG and 1RG creatures, and these 1GG creatures are SO SO good.

I really recommend trying them out.

BreathWeapon
04-26-2007, 03:21 AM
This is the build,

4 Fallow Wurm
4 Thundering Wurm
4 Call of the Herd
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Rolling Earthquake (Earthquake is fine)
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
13 R/g Lands (Sometimes I use a 21 land count and other times 23 land count based on the number of Call of the Herd I want to run)

SB

4 Blood Moon
4 Null Rod
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Krosan Grip

I used Burning Tree Shaman and Troll Ascetic in Aggro-Flow, and IMO, they're both overrated here; 3 power is a 7 turn clock, while 4 power is a 5 turn clock and Call of the Herd is a 4 turn clock with Flashback. 4/4s kill at least 2 Goblins in trades, while a 3/4 kills 1 goblin in trades, and the 2 Toughness of Troll Ascetic and 1G Regeneration cost are a pain in the ass in general.

Sword of Fire and Ice is better than Umezawa's Jitte, because 3cc is in this deck's curve, and Sword of Fire and Ice is one turn faster, draws a card and gives the creatures evasion against Goblins and Faerie Stompy.

The worst match ups I came across were Rifter and Slide, the rest of the match ups were favorable, coin flips or became overwhelmingly favorable post SB.

Just dropping consistent Trinispheres and Chalice of the Void followed with an aggressive clock is enough against most decks; I can understand the attraction to Heartwood Storyteller, but he's really a SB card considering he's sub-par against Goblins, and even then I'd just board in Blood Moon or Pyrostatic Pillar.

Give Spirit Stompy a whirl, because it's probably what you're looking for; I know I would take it to the GP if it were legal, and if I didn't have the "use combo or use a deck with Force of Will" complex.

Maveric78f
04-26-2007, 05:12 AM
Don't lie. I just don't see a single reason for you to win against gob.

If I'm not mistaking I've beaten such a deck on MWS with a landstill built (3 basic lands but no 1CC slot except brainstorm). Tou have a lot of threats but you could not play them and a deed into play is nightmare for you, as well as standstill.

Aside from that, I think that it's a very valuable deck and that you should play pyroclasm + rolling spoil in SB in order to fix the gob MU and then you'll have a great deck.

Something else, I would NEVER play Iwamori in a legacy deck. I'd better run kavu MD or blastoderm, or even better rumbling slum.

kicks_422
04-26-2007, 05:43 AM
Something else, I would NEVER play Iwamori in a legacy deck. I'd better run kavu MD or blastoderm, or even better rumbling slum.

Why not? The only legends that see play are (off the top of my head) Isamaru (which cowers in fear in front of Iwamori), Akroma (which is in the yard most of the times), and Kiki-Jiki (which is out of most Goblin builds).

That said, there are better options at the 4cc beater slot, and I like Baloth in there. FTK could be SB material.

Maveric78f
04-26-2007, 06:11 AM
Damn, I never noticed that the creature had to be legendary. Anyway I prefer FTK or Blastoderm.

nitewolf9
04-26-2007, 10:53 AM
SB

4 Blood Moon
4 Null Rod
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Krosan Grip


16 card sideboards are broken.

I think blood moon is very underplayed in the format and this could be interesting, but I'd still be weary about your combo matchup even with maindeck chalices. Definitely looks fun to play.

Happy Gilmore
04-26-2007, 11:50 AM
With so many 3cc spells wouldn't you benefit from running Trinisphere in the main?

4 Taiga
2 Mountain
7 Forest
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Sword of Fire/Ice

4 Troll Ascetic
4 Call of the Herd
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Burning Tree Shaman
4 Wild Mongrel

The only problem I have is the inability to answer Lacky on the draw. But the fact that your acceleration is also beats is so cool. And why the heck are you not running Pyroclasm in the SB?

Hmm...I did not see Breathweapon's deck before I posted this one. But I don't agree with city of traitors. It dies to quick, Ancient tomb is cool because it is an accellerant early and a red source late.

Finn
04-26-2007, 12:17 PM
...
...
...
4 Wooded Foothills
...
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
3/2 Simian Spirit Guide

...

3 Wild Mongrel...
...
...
4 Troll Ascetic
4 Burning Tree Shaman
...
2 Umezawe's Jitte
So is random anti-synergy what makes this deck worth using over any of the 3 gazillion versions that don't kill themsleves?

BreathWeapon
04-26-2007, 12:36 PM
16 card sideboards are broken.

I think blood moon is very underplayed in the format and this could be interesting, but I'd still be weary about your combo matchup even with maindeck chalices. Definitely looks fun to play.

I cut a card from the MD and the SB before I go to a tournament.

Comb isn't that bad, 4 Trinisphere and 4 Chalice of the Void give the deck good odds game one, and P.Pillar and Null Rod seal the deal.

@Gilmore

CT is great, there's no need to use a 3rd land after CT is on the board, so all the opponent can do is Wasteland it, and there are a possible 8 Blood Moon in order to turn it into a Mountain.

Even after CT, Chalice of the Void for one go and then Forest, Fallow Wurm and sacrifice one land and discard another land the deck brings most of its games home. CT is a double colorless Lotus Petal, that's too good not to use.

People need to stop using Burning Shaman and Troll Ascetic in all of their mid-range R/g beats decks and look for creatures that abuse the acceleration available; more games are going to be won on the back of turn one Trinisphere, Chalice of the Void, Blood Moon and 3cc 4 power creatures than the 1RG, 1GG, 2RG and 2GG creatures.

Another interesting creatures in the 4cc range is Petravark, that thing is a Strip Mine on legs under a Trinisphere or Blood Moon.

frogboy
04-26-2007, 02:09 PM
Finn, I would assume that you crack your fetchlands in order to play Burning-Tree Shaman. ESG and SSG do not trigger it. Jitte pretty much manhandles aggro decks by its lonesome, so taking a few points isn't terribly relevant.

aisman132000
04-26-2007, 04:13 PM
i think you need to up the jitte count to at least three maybe even four. Jitte is critical against goblins and not seeing one seems like game over for you. i'm really skeptical of any deck r/g deck that doesn't run any spot removal or reach.

BreathWeapon
04-26-2007, 04:42 PM
I'm going to either MD or SB Dwarven Blastminer at this point, he's better than the second set of Blood Moons since he can equip and attack, altho' he is slower at ruining the opponent.

Zilla
04-26-2007, 05:05 PM
I think your Goblins matchups is suspect. Chalice and Magus, as you've mentioned, do basically nothing at all to them. You say they can steal wins if they "get lucky" with Lackey, except you have no answers to a first turn Lackey outside of Elves, which are quite easily removed.

I think you're going to find Goblins "getting lucky" against you far more often than you predict. The reason that Zilla Stompy has a positive matchup against Goblins is because it has 8 targeted removal spells for their key threats, 12 answers to a turn 1 Lackey, and a full playset of Jittes to turn the game around if things go long. Even then, Goblins can steal games, and that deck is in a far better position against Goblins than this one is.



In addition, few control decks are equiped to deal with a resolved Troll Ascetic.
There are very few dedicated control decks not running Wrath of God or Damnation.

Happy Gilmore
04-26-2007, 05:27 PM
So is random anti-synergy what makes this deck worth using over any of the 3 gazillion versions that don't kill themsleves?

Spirit Guide is a mana ability.

kirdape3
04-26-2007, 05:33 PM
This looks like a Flores deck from the end of last Extended season. The combo decks don't kill you until turn 4 there, and the aggro decks certainly don't run a walking Black Lotus at you starting from turn 1. Unfortunately, your defensive measures don't really frighten a Goblins deck that may very well be capable of dealing with them.

If you lose to Threshold at all, however, you should be beaten to death by a legion of angry schoolchildren.

thefreakaccident
04-26-2007, 07:23 PM
you could drop the mongrel (he is basically the only thing that doesn't look all that good here)... in his stead you could run something for the goblin MU that everyone seems to be sqirming about... as to what you could run I am not sure (I like pyroclasm, but it hits your moon... do you board him out in that MU?)... actually I could see clasm going in (could be that awesome spot in that MU that makes it a possitive MU for ya)...

I run plague in the MD of a good number of my black decks to gain a possitive goblin MU (which you need in order to be competative).

just an idea though.

Happy Gilmore
04-26-2007, 09:54 PM
you could drop the mongrel (he is basically the only thing that doesn't look all that good here)... in his stead you could run something for the goblin MU that everyone seems to be sqirming about... as to what you could run I am not sure (I like pyroclasm, but it hits your moon... do you board him out in that MU?)... actually I could see clasm going in (could be that awesome spot in that MU that makes it a possitive MU for ya)...

I run plague in the MD of a good number of my black decks to gain a possitive goblin MU (which you need in order to be competative).

just an idea though.

Clasm hits a good number of your creatures too, thats a problem. I can see this deck playing late game Guides as beaters alot which is so awsome. But they all have buts of 2 which is :frown: . Wild Mongrel is an out vs. Lacky if you have a Guide in hand. You could also run Kavu Titan instead of him for the late game beaf :eek: .

thefreakaccident
04-26-2007, 11:32 PM
perhapes if the deck was designed with more big beaters (slightly higher mana cost) like faerie stompy, then we could easily get away with using challice, clasm, and shphere... the deck would then be geared to beat anything using little creatures, combo, and those guys with 5 duals on the field with no basics... I can actually see this doing quite well for itself in the future (once refined of coarse)... I will attempt at a list with the ideas that I am blurting out right now tomorrow; I am very tired!!!!!

Clark Kant
04-27-2007, 01:23 PM
The reason to play the deck, is to completely screw with most of the popular decks in the metagames. A first turn Magus of the Moon if resolved makes so many of the popular decks manabases 19 Mountain, and perhaps one or two basic lands that they probably won't chance into.

Chalice serves as the universal answer to combo and burn, but screws up a lot of decks curves, and cuts your opponents off from Brainstorms and Swords and Bolts making sure your threats stay in play.

And playing first turn 3/4s or second turn 5/5 tramplers is a huge boon in the goblins matchup. None of goblins creatures have evasion, and every single one of your threats are bigger than all of their threats. Plus you happen to be playing just as many creatures as them. This is what makes the matchup very winnable.

You guys might be right about Pyroclasm. Spirit Guides usually end up being mana sources to speed myself up a full two turns. Theoretcially, I could clasm, then play out Spirit Guides.

Wild Mongrel is perfectly cuttable if you guys want to up the Jitte count or add another Iwamori or something. It was mainly in there because it so often convinced my opponents that I was playing Madness and drew out their countermagic or removal before your next main phase so that the big boys, Chalice, Magus and Storyteller can rip their decks to shreads

Finn, lol, where did you ever get the idea that ESGs and SSGs trigger Burning Tree Shaman. I take it you never heard of Zilla Stompy, it was a deck back in the day that was made as a metagame answer to goblins and landstill, but died off once Solidarity became popular. And it ran just as much "anti-synergy" as this deck along with BTS.


I think your Goblins matchups is suspect. Chalice and Magus, as you've mentioned, do basically nothing at all to them. You say they can steal wins if they "get lucky" with Lackey, except you have no answers to a first turn Lackey outside of Elves, which are quite easily removed.

You do realise that short of Iwamori, you have no problem playing any of your threats out on your very first turn. And a first turn Burning Tree Shaman is a hell of a lot better answer to goblins than a first turn Llanowar Elves.

The deck plays 12 acceleration spells so that it can win games with a chalice turn 1, or Magus against landstill and the huge number of other decks that get screwed over by having thier entire manabase including fetchlands be turned into mountains, or Heartwood Storyteller as a cantrip against control that forces them to use up their only Swords or FoW.

But against goblins, there no good reason for the deck NOT to use the acceleration to play Burning Tree Shaman, or even Heartwood Storyteller or Troll Ascetic turn one. Suddenly, it's not just lackey they can't attack with, none of their creatures are big enough to attack once.

I'm having trouble deciding between Chrome Mox and Birds of Pardase/Elf. Yes, Chrome is bad synergy with Heartwood, but it's a card that I never end up casting after Heartwood anyways. Midgame, extra copies usually feed Mongrel.

It usually eats a Spirit Guide, and the main reason I started testing it in the first place, is because of the ever frequent hand where I am forced to decide between casting a Bird first turn, or casting Chalice at 1 first turn and never being able to play that Bird in my hand for the rest of the game.

Zilla, despite our disagreement. I really would LOVE for you more than anyone to test this deck. It was influenced heavily by Zilla Stompy and I think that if you just took the time to proxy up a build and try it out, you would fall in love with it as well.

Clark Kant
04-28-2007, 12:33 PM
Have any of you disbelievers, most importantly Zilla, had the oppurtunity to proxy up and try the deck yet. I really really want to hear from you guys when you do.

***It very much feels like a far more consistent albeit slightly slower version of Fairie Stompy with even better matchups against control across the board.***

I modified the build, upped the Jitte count, settled on Chrome Mox over BoP etc.

If you're playing versus a deck packing Deed or Wrath, the main thing to remember is to not overextend and don't just go for the fastest kill if it means big card disadvantage. It's not always best to play your best most back breaking threat first as even your less scary threats are must answer cards versus control. And don't just go for the fastest kill if it means big card disadvantage. You will win if just you keep that in mind and play well.

Against Landstill for example, even a single Troll Ascetic can go the distance as they have a very hard time getting rid of it. In addition resolving a single Magus, or a Chalice at 2, or forcing them to use up their countermagic and removal on the aforementioned cards so that you can keep your Heartwood Storyteller in play, any of these can often win you the game. Even Shaman or Iwamori or a Spirit Guide with a Jitte on it are must kill right away cards for the landstill player, as they very rapidly eat away at their life total.

So just don't put all your eggs in one basket (for example, playing Land, Chrome Mox, discard 2 Spirit Guides, cast Iwamori of Open Fist) would be a very bad play versus control. You're better off playing more threats than playing your threats out a turn faster at the cost of depleting your hand.

Your results versus landstill can vary a lot based on the specific build but irrespective of the build, try the matchup again keeping those things in mind and mulligan away crap hands and play a few more games against them and I promise you your results will be very much in your favor.

I'm not saying that the build is 100% optimal yet. Perhaps it should run cut a mana slot or two for another threat or two before it's completely optimal. All I am saying is that it has performed exceptionally well for me against a variety of matchups.

So I really think Vaka Beatz possibly with some minor tweaks has a great shot of breaking into the top tier.

Clark Kant
05-01-2007, 02:34 AM
Those of you guys who said that the deck shoupld play some removal were right. :)

I desperately was searching for a 2cc card to cast that can deal with Lackey and trade with other goblins.

Lightning Bolt doesn't work since it gets shut down by Chalice at 1. But Magma Jet suits perfectly.

barron
05-01-2007, 02:57 AM
Do you really need that many moon effects post SB?

Also, i don't know how much it matters anymore but this deck would just fold faster than superman on laundry day to a competent solidarity player (emphasis on competent), even with that hate.

Nydaeli
05-01-2007, 03:25 AM
Here's the problem I see with the deck: Your acceleration is costing you massive card advantage. You talk a lot about how strong it is to play one of your bombs on turn one. But you have to invest three cards to do so (bomb+two Spirit Guides, or bomb+Spirit Guide+Mox), which makes this kind of play much less appealing. (Even worse if it gets Dazed.) I think that eight Spirit Guides is really too many, since you don't really want to spend both of them on acceleration if you draw two, so some of them want to be replaced by better creatures. I'd like to see the Mongrels put back in, actually, so you can curve out decently.

Clark Kant
05-01-2007, 02:05 PM
The blood moon effects were really popular with me because loam decks were so popular in my meta. Something that has come to change over the past week thanks to this deck. So I had come to replace them with 2 more Krosan Grip and more Pyroclasm, as Grip is astoundingly good at taking out so much randomness... Disk, Ghostly Prison, Confinement, Jitte, Survival etc etc. And Pyroclasm slaugters goblins esp given that almost all your threats are bigger than them. I just updated my opening post with my current sideboard.

I was running 3 Krosan Grip before, and tried cutting back on Grip to check the validity of the comments... "this isn't extended, Grip isn't good here" and had fast come to realize how big a part it played to me being able to slaugther survival, confinement, standstills and so much other randomness. So now, I'm up to 4 for a bit, and am seriously considering maindecking it.

Nydiel,

You're not supposed to overstrectch versus everything, if you are, you are playing the deck wrong and you really hurt your odds versus decks heavy on countermagic and removal (decks that are otherwise very favorable).

You use Spirit Guides up to cast a bomb; Magus turn one vs. 43 lands and other counterless loam variants; Trinisphere, Chalice, Pillar etc turn one versus iggy pop, tes; magma jet or chalice versus goblins, burn etc. Or occasionally can even use them to cast Iwamori turn two (using Chrome Mox) against decks that have no countermagic at all, and whose only game plan is to race you (burn, combo etc). This is assuming that you mulled into a turn one chalice or trinisphere or atleast pillar versus combo like you should have.

Against decks that play lots of countermagic and removal, you're usually (not always depending on your opening hand) better off playing these out as threats turn three and on.

That way they can only kill and counter so many of your threats, and now have to counter Jitte too. And eventually will have to deal with them when they start eating away at their life total, and you WILL be able to resolve a relevent chalice at 2, or Heartwood, or Troll Ascetic or Burning Tree Shaman, or Iwamori, or Magus or something as a result. Against landstill, you have very good odds, but you have to play it like a battle of attrition.

The Sprit Guides are awesome in that they counter Daze, let you play Chalice or Pyrostatic Pillar turn one, can be equipped to chrome mox.

That said, if I run Llanowar Elves over Chrome Mox as a way to abuse Jitte more (a serious change I"m considering), I would also cut Spirit Guides (since you no longer imprint them to Chrome Mox and you have Elves to abuse Jitte with) for better threats (probably Tarmogoyf - He's a huge bomb versus slower controllish decks and without Chrome Mox, that's one less card for Mongrel to eat mid game), or run maindeck Krosan Grips or something.

Clark Kant
05-02-2007, 05:51 PM
Testing caused me to abandon both Storyteller and Ohran Viper for Call of the Herd which proved itself better against both aggro and control. But here were the reasons the previous two cards were run before.

Ohran Viper is clearly superior vs. goblins compared to Storyteller.

Here were the reasons for running Heartwood...

Versus control, your opponent Swording or Bolting the Heartwood the turn it was cast (because he used up his countermagic to stop Chalice or Magus or Ascetic or BTS or Iwamori or something), will draw you a card and give you card advantage. Ohran Viper won't.

Versus storm combo, a early heartwood can sometimes be the reason you win you a game that you should have lost, esp post board.

Of course mulliganing into Chalice or turn one Trini or esp double Pillar (or Pillar + BTS) can win games almost by themselves, with or without Heartwood, though Heartwood helps a lot when you have a Chalice or Trini already down as well. But the worst case scenario (where Chalice or Trini get Duressed, FoWed etc), Heartwood can be be the reason you win.

If you resolve turn one Heartwood (requires no effort to do if you have a Chrome Mox in hand), then if they go for the Empty the Warrens win, which seems to be really popular these days, Heartwood will draw into one of the 4 Pyroclasms you need to clear the board.

Of course, you can't count on that, as most combo players will go for the tendrils kill vs decks playing red. However, if you get a Pyrostatic Pillar out turn one, your opponent likely will have to wait a turn to go off. Then a second turn Heartwood can seal the deal, as Pillar forces them to get very close to death when they cast Tendrils. Here, you will sometimes draw sufficent cards to get a Magma Jet and two Sprit Guides to kill them in response to Tendrils. If they instead foolishly decide to spread their kill out over two tendrils and two turns to avoid going so close to death against a deck playing red, then Heartwood will have likely drawn you additonal Trinisphere and Chalices and SGs to help cast both to make things tough on them, assuming you have enough life to cast more hate through Pillar.

Not saying these scenarios are at all likely against combo (except the Empty the Warrens tokens and Pyroclasm situation which happens often against less experienced combo players), or that you can bank on them. But they do happen and Heartwood does occasionally win you games versus Storm combo that you should have lost.

So the question is, does Heartwoods slight advantage vs. combo and control override it's inferiority vs. random aggro when compared to Ascetic?

P.S. I've recently started testing 2 Wasteland, just for the hell of it. It's a pretty useful card even with Magus. In addition, 2 Keldon Megaliths look like they might have potential versus control.

aisman132000
05-02-2007, 08:18 PM
i love rg beats in all its forms. Currently i favor the Dave Feinstein build with a low curve and a lot of burn. the main problem i see with your deck and all rg decks in general is hulk fucking flash. i don't think chalice is enough to hose them unless you get a super aggresive turn 1 chalice for 2, which seems unlikely . even chalice and trinisphere doesn't seem like it'll do much. I don't know what the answer is, maybe 8 blasts in the sb? Have you tested the match up yet?

Clark Kant
05-03-2007, 04:02 PM
First things first. What do you guys think of my new build?

Forget Hulk Flash for a second, I'm curious how exactly you think feinstein or any other build of r/g beats have a decent shot at beating Iggy Pop, TES and other combo decks.

Those decks hope for a turn 4 goldfish at best and with zero Chalice, which is almost always far too late to do anything about any of the combo decks including Hulk Flash.

This has I find about a turn 5 goldfish With Chalice. That's a massive boon.

Here, you have maindeck Chalice, which buy you lots of time. Mulliganing into Chalice is the reason I've won against combo so often. It buys you plenty of time, to either play more disruption (Trinisphere, Pyrostatic Pillar, BTS to a small extent, each of which buys you even more time), or to just beat down with threats while they're waiting for that one card that might give them a small chance to recover.

I had a small chance to test versus Hulk Flash. They are indeed hurt by turn one Chalice, enough to win you the game. I haven't played enough to know if the matchup is favorable, (it probably isn't in all honesty), but it is most certainly winnable. And if it ever indeed becomes neccesary, I think the deck can find some way to fight the combo, there's a lot of sideboard cards.

As for worrying about making Hulk Flash a favorable matchup right now, there is absoultely zero point in worry about a deck that there are very very good reasons to believe will get banned.

Ot makes about as much sense as gearing up decks to beat that very first storm deck that abused the blue storm card and consistently won turn one. Everyone was talking about tech to beat that deck, 4 maindeck stifles, etc, only to have the deck be dealt with a banning before it had a chance to make any impact.

If Hulk Flash starts showing up everywhere (which I think it will) and is not immediatly dealt with by the dci soon after (and I am convinced that the dci will indeed deal with it since it invalidates every strategy but control/aggro control), then we can worry about how to favorable a matchup it is.

aisman132000
05-03-2007, 07:05 PM
wastelands+4 blasts and 4 pillars out of the sb have been pretty good for me against both iggy and epic storm. In my experience wasteland is very solid and turn two pillar coupled with your quick clock is pretty much game over. I'm not claiming a super favorable match up as i'd rather play against goblins or threshold ( both of which Feinstein 's deck crushes btw) but i'm certainly not afraid to play them.

Also as far as your current build goes i think jitte should be kicked up to 4 and magma jet as well. eight spirit guides seems a little excessive maybe... can you cut 2? Also i'm not really sure why you play two FTK in the board. wouldn't you be better of playing two more trinisphere or maybe rough/tumble? just my two cents.

Clark Kant
05-04-2007, 12:05 PM
The most important point about this deck, and it's one that I can't emphasize highly enough, is that the deck has very positive matchups against the two most played decks in the format, goblins and threshold, as well as against landstill, stax etc that I find also see tons of play nowadays. (I've tried Feinstein's build, and while it does do decently versus both goblins and thresh, the matchup is not nearly as strong as it is with this deck, try it out yourself if you don't believe me). And still has a solid plan against combo that wins it lots of games versus the matchup, something that no other aggro deck except Fairie Stompy, Red Death and occasionally Goblins achieve. And certainly one that far better than every other r/g aggro deck ever made could possibly hope for before imho (after having tried what really feels like virtually every other r/g aggro deck ever).

Wow, I never even though of Rough/Tumble in place of Pyroclasm as a way to deal with both Goblins and Fairie Stompy.

It sounds like a fantastic idea and I updated my opening post to reflect that.

I'm not sure about replacing FTK. It's fantastic against all aggro decks, not just Fairie Stompy (though it's absolutely vital in the matchup to prevent them from racing you those times they don't fall victim to their own inconsistency). It's decent against goblins giving you a 2 for 1 trade (I usually subout the 4 Magus and possibly a SSG and Chalice for it and 4 Pyroclasm). FTK is even solid against sligh, letting you use their own Jackal Pups against them. Though that's a matchup where Chalice by itself and the big creatures win it for you already.

But I dictated it as a metagame slot as that is exactly what the card is.

Arrowni
05-08-2007, 08:26 PM
Can you really beat white stacks? It seems to me that you get hit rather hard by propaganda effects.

Cait_Sith
05-08-2007, 09:00 PM
Ummm, I don't know how you are doing it but, how does Krosan Grip beat Standstill?

Also: This deck doesn't look too hot next to Truffle Shuffle. You MUST get a Moon effect to stick or you will quickly be buried beneath piles of removal and well fetches basics.

Clark Kant
05-08-2007, 09:51 PM
I really haven't run across Truffle Shuffle, it seems like people stopped playing it over an year ago right around when loam and landstill made a resurgence, and I hadn't seen any lists place at any tournaments anywhere. So I couldn't say what the matchup is like. I don't even know what the post loam and landstill builds looks like. Magus of the Moon, Jitte, Chalice and Magma Jet to a much lesser extent to help kill their bigger threats when they block seem like they might give you a fighting shot though, just because Magus and Jitte seem really broken here. But I can't say as I've honestly never run into the matchup in over an year. If people still play it, I would really appreciate it if you could direct me to the current tournament viable build as I would like to test against such a build.

Standstill is dependent on using it's Deeds or abusing Crucible and Factory to be able to abuse Standstill versus aggro decks, and Grip attacks both strategies. This deck of course has a natural advantage in that it's threats are bigger than Factory, Ascetic is resilient to Deeds and just the high threat density giving you resilience versus a few pieces of removal and countermagic and having to overextend (even a Spirit Guide and Jitte, or a Spirit Guide and a 3 power creature are enough to go the distance so you don't need to overextend at all) but Grip is still nice. Krosan Grip is exceptional against deed, disk/keg, crucible which are all fantastic targets for standstill decks esp after your opponent chump blocks with Mishra's Factory thinking they can just recast it with crucible (or to wipe out factory so that they can't block with it and you can deal lethal damage that same turn). Plus its a solid card to crack standstill with to take out crucible or something at the end of your opponents turn. Landstill does draw more cards, but this deck has such a high density of threats esp with Call of the Herd eating up two of your opponents removal/countermagic that you almost never fail to resolve enough threats to deal lethal damage rather rapidly without having to overextend when you don't have a Grip to deal with deed. In my experience, it's a very good matchup for you.

For white stax, I haven't had much difficulty with the matchup and two people in my playgroup play the deck frequently nowadays. Your opponent doesn't see prison + smokestacks within the first four turns every game one. Thats the main situation where this deck has a hard time, and it only happens one in four game ones. I'm not including game two because Krosan Grip really tilts the odds in this decks favor. And even those games where your opponent gets both an early prison and smokestack you have a decent shot at playing around it even when he does and keep 2 mana on the table long enough to deal lethal damage thanks to the high permanent count. You can usually deal about 9 points of damage turn 4, and after that, even if your opponent gets both a Prison and a Smokestack on the table, your main goal is to sac whatever is neccesary (even if it means sacrificing a creature each turn) to deal 3 damage a turn for 3 more turns to bring your opponent within strikig distance of a top decked Sprit Guide or Magma Jet. It's really not hard to do. Spirit Guides seem to give you that one last extra mana just at the nick oftime. The deck runs about as many permanents as Stax, only these permanents deal damage to. And that's not taking into account the fact that BTS is great at dealing a few extra points of damage and Iwamori is extremely good at dealing damage. Stax is good against gobins because each creature attacking by itself can only deal about 2 damage a turn, this deck gives Stax less room to breathe in my experience.

Postboard, Grip timed properly makes it hard for the stax player to mana screw you and really screws up their math so that you can get lethal damage in. If your opponent does managed toreset the board with a rapidly increased smokestack, you can usually recover as fast as Stax can in my experience. Flagstones can admittedly be really broken for them at times though.

Cavius The Great
05-12-2007, 12:08 PM
I'm really liking this deck Clark. Just out of curiosity, what's your name in real life? I might recognize you. :wink:

HdH_Cthulhu
05-13-2007, 04:25 AM
Is CotV the only reson to not run kird ape? a 2/3 for 1 red mana?

Honoluluicecaps
05-13-2007, 10:33 AM
Yeah I was about to suggest the same thing... If you're looking for an answer to a turn one Lackey, Kird Ape is a great choice. I love Chalice but against goblins it's really subpar IMO. Most Goblin decks run some type of artifact removal MD that can be fetched via matron.

Clark Kant
05-14-2007, 12:56 PM
Thanks Cavius. My first name is Clark, but I think I know who you're talking about :wink: . He's a good friend of mine and helped me develop most of these and runs a couple of them himself.

Yep, Chalice is the reason that the deck runs Chrome Mox over Llanowar Elves and doesn't run Kird Ape. And Chalice isn't there against goblins, goblins is a very solid matchup already thanks to Pyroclasm and the big creatures. Chalice is there against combo, but is many times game breaking against most every deck other than Goblins and Fairie Stompy (against Threshold when set at 1, against landstill and pretty much any control deck when set at either 1 or 2).

I do miss Kird Ape though, he's a r/g classic. I may consider putting him back someday though I really don't think he belongs maindeck when I am so frequently setting chalice at 1 turn one. I'm also toying with the idea of running him in the sideboard (perhaps by cutting back to 2 Pyroclasm), as he's solid against goblins and can be sided in versus combo and decks like landstill and BBS where you're usually better off setting Chalice at 2.