[Deck] Grand Prix Psychatog!

[Bardo]

Maybe there's something wrong with me and I can't see the writing on the wall that Psychatog has no place in this format. To that, I can only say "Pfft. Wanker." Accordingly I'm continually tinkering with my Tog deck to make it work at a GP level and perform admirably. But as everyone knows, the Tog form is extraordinarily open, in Legacy more so than any other format, ever. Here's what I have for your consideration today.

* Went back to the AKs, since they've been testing fine, without Intuition, and obviously much better with it. Note the Dorgan TMLO2 finalist list.

* Maindeck Chalices of the Void with Ancient Tomb to power the fucker out. Eat poo Serum Visions/StP.

* Tomb also speeds Tog up to drop an early Shackles, Cunning Wish, FoF or a turn 2 Plague.

* Maindeck Plague for Goblins and ETW tokens.

* Deeds in the sideboard, I'd like to squeeze in more.

* Force Spike? Dunno, you have the Chalice slots to fiddle with.

“Legacy Turbo Tog”
By Bardo

4 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge
3 Intuition
2 Cunning Wish
2 Fact or Fiction

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Chalice of the Void (or Force Spike)

4 Engineered Plague
3 Vedalken Shackles

3 Psychatog

4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
5 Island
2 Swamp
3 Ancient Tomb

Sideboard
4 Duress
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Chalice of the Void

Wish Board
1 Ghastly Demise
1 Echoing Truth / Stifle
1 Shallow Grave
1 Naturalize
1 Hydroblast
1 Extirpate
1 Berserk


Quickie Match-up Guides (off the top of my head):

* Goblins. Maindeck Plagues (!) (with Intuition to tutor for them). Resilient manabase. Shackles stall/annoy.

* Threshold. Shackles. Chalice of the Void (!)

* Hulk Flash. Chalice of the Void. Counters? I have no idea. Seems like a rout.

* IGGy Pop. Chalice of the Void. Cunning Wish for Extirpate; or Tog + Berserk.

* Random aggro. Vedalken Freaking Shackles. Nutty.

[Insert random, "Play HF instead" or "This can't beat HF" post here. Grazi.]

[Ta Jugs]

You should look at Kyle Dorgan's psychatog list from the Mana Leak Open 2 where he placed second.

[frogboy]

* Maindeck Chalices of the Void with Ancient Tomb to power the fucker out. Eat poo Serum Visions/StP.

clever. Probably helps your combo matchups, too, although I don't think they're particularly great.

and yeah Flash.

[noobslayer]

I think he has Cody. Kyle has taken to running 1x Abyss main decked, which seems pretty cool (probably as an homage to Overlord95). I'm not the biggest fan of chalices here, and I think you need at least three cycle lands and a loam in the deck, to at least get a stable engine and make huge togs.

[xsockmonkeyx]

4x Extirpate in the SB would help a lot against the HF matchup. If its tuned properly this is actually one of the decks that might be able to take down that monster.

[Dr. Teeth]

omg, a deck i actully want to comment on.

You actually came up with the same idea as me (about maindecking the plauges and boarding the deeds), although i do not like the chalices because all the combo matchups that i have tested are already favorable. But i suppose i should test with them anyway.

[BreathWeapon]

The Charms are strong in Tog, removing the opponent's one drop or giving the Tog evasion is so smooth.

[outsideangel]

4x Extirpate in the SB would help a lot against the HF matchup. If its tuned properly this is actually one of the decks that might be able to take down that monster.

Errr...Extirpate does not stop Flash from resolving, nor does it stop Hulk's ability from resolving. It's only good if they try to go off once and fail. I think it's probably better to just concentrate on stopping them, because answers like that are good anytime.

In summation, run Stifle instead.

[Dr. Teeth]

I disagree weapon, the way you win alot of the matches is because your cards are just more powerful, which a charm is not, I can say for sure.

EDIT: I also advocate playing the Life from the Loam package in this deck, as it allows you to easily out card-advantage your opponent when the game drags on into the late game.

[overlord95]

I honestly dont see traditonal Hulk Smash being a good choice for the gp due to the fact that almost and thier grandma will be boarding Leyline of the Void.:frown:

[Dr. Teeth]

Hulk (smash) is barely affected at all by leyline, i would actually be happy to see my opponent boarding out relivant cards/mulliganing into leylines. I also disagree on the point that everyone will be playing them, and I think you guys are all way to paronoid about this flash thing IMHO.

[Bardo]

@ Ta Jugs - I mentioned Kyle's list in my OP. I'm aware. I even mentioned it in my last SCG article.

@ Froggy - Yeah, Chalice is tech for aggro-control and combo decks (Thresh on 1, B/W on 2, combo on 0, 1 & 2). It also helps in random places like against Burn. Ever drop a turn-1 Chalice on Burninator? Hilarious.

@ Noobslayer - I've played load of Loam/Tog already. It's very powerful but really, really, really slow to get up and running too. Hence the Loam engine -> AKs, which are much quicker if you need to be drawing cards.

Re: Extirpate. Someone mentions it below, but it doesn't stop the combo unless they fizzle, which isn't something you can count on. It is vicious in extracting IGGs, Tendrils (GG), High Tide, LFTL, Seismic Assault, just a sick and fun card. 4 seems overkill though.

Re: Charms. They are ass. I want powerful "kick you in the groin and piss in your eyeballs" kind of cards, not some shit that gives something -1/-1 or whatever. Power > Flexible (generally).

Re: Stifle. Yeah, those Chalice slots were a hole mess of things; starting with Force Spike, the Stifle (for obvious reasons) to Chalice (since it has broader ass-stomping implications). But sure, if anyone wants to give this puppy at whirl, try Stifle, but I think you'll find that Chalice is just nuttier.

Re: LFTL, redux. Try this out. I know we both have a lot of experience with the Loam decks, Kyle, but would suggest you don't discard the LFTL-less Tog deck out of hand. It's very good.

Re: Leyline. You can still remove the thing with E Truth, Naturalize, etc. Not a rout.

[Dr. Teeth]

I agree on almost all points.

About lftl, i've played without it aswell, and even when playing with it alot of times it is the correct play to get ak instead, but in several very relivant matchups, thresh for one, lftl just crushes them.

I've also always been in favor of the extra counterspells(not forcespike) in your stifle/chalice slots.

I have always wanted to put an extripate in the board as a cunning wish target, but I have never been able to find the room.

[BreathWeapon]

I got a lot of mileage out of the blue Charm, it isn't dead in a single match up, but whatever; I'd cut Counter Spell for a card that doesn't suck ass, like Merchant Scroll since it can just tutor up Force of Will and the rest of the draw engine.

[overlord95]

Hulk (smash) is barely affected at all by leyline, i would actually be happy to see my opponent boarding out relivant cards/mulliganing into leylines. I also disagree on the point that everyone will be playing them, and I think you guys are all way to paronoid about this flash thing IMHO.The real beatuy of leyline in the tog match up is the fact that its going to buy the leyline controller a huge amount of time.

1.) The tog player is going to have to find an answer to the leyline be it cunning wish for something or deed.
2.) The tog player is going to have then build up some type of graveyard to finally win the damn thing after dealing with the leyline.
3.) Leyline shuts of any form of card advantage the tog player could muster out side of Fact or Fiction(no more AKs or LFTL while its in play)
4.) I think your forgetting the fact that alot of decks are going to have some type of supar card against a control deck which LLotV is just better then.
5.) You dont neccsarily have to mulligan into a LLotV for it to be good.

Call me crazy but I think its ok to be paranoid about a deck that plays just as much countermagic as most the blue based control decks in the format and only needs a 2cc instant to win the game on the spot.

[Bardo]

@ Dr. Teeth.

Matt brought up the CSpell issue which brough up other intersting points on TMD: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=33001.msg471712#new

Re: Extirpate. Your last SB:

Sideboard
4 Enginereed Plague
4 Duress
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Corpse Dance
1 Naturalize
1 Ghastly Demise
1 Berserk
1 Misdirection
1 Hideous Laughter

These are all good cards, but how often did you honestly C Wish for Hideous Laughter, that's what a 4BBU? I'd start there. And as techy and as much as I love MisD, for counter-wars, I've yet to ever fetch that.

Post-FS, I'm gonna test the new Slaughter Pact in place of Demise.

[Dr. Teeth]

@ Dr. Teeth.

Matt brought up the CSpell issue which brough up other intersting points on TMD: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=33001.msg471712#new

Re: Extirpate. Your last SB:

Sideboard
4 Enginereed Plague
4 Duress
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Corpse Dance
1 Naturalize
1 Ghastly Demise
1 Berserk
1 Misdirection
1 Hideous Laughter

These are all good cards, but how often did you honestly C Wish for Hideous Laughter, that's what a 4BBU? I'd start there. And as techy and as much as I love MisD, for counter-wars, I've yet to ever fetch that.

Post-FS, I'm gonna test the new Slaughter Pact in place of Demise.

I cut the laughter for stifle after day1 of the MLO, I could see cuting the MisD for extripate, but I usually get MisD in response to hymn, so i'm not sure.

EDIT: I'm also thinking of replacing demise with the pact.

EDIT#2: on the counterspell/ runesnag v. mana leak issue. I have never even considered cutting counterspell, and I cannot fathom how you can stop any deck from beating you when you can't stop them from doing whatever the hell they want, and you can not use cards like daze as a replacement because this deck is not particularly fast and your spells cost more than one or two, so i think its unavoidable. on the mana leak vs. rune snag argument, i do not run a full complement of mana leaks anyway so i do not think rung snag would be optimal.

[Hubris]

Yay! Psychatog!

Ok, so I’m new to The Source, blah blah blah. Moving on.

I’m really pleased there’s some rekindled interest in Psychatog; I really think it has what it takes to be a solid contender. Making it said contender is the difficulty though!

With that said, I’ve been doing a lot of thinking over the last bit on Psychatog’s possible draw engines, and I’m happy to see people are gravitating away from the Life from the Loam engine. Yeah, it’s powerful, but I agree with Bardo on it being too slow. I also like the inclusion of both 2 Fact or Fictions and 2 Cunning Wish. Int/AK is not going to cut it on its own, and while Cunning Wish is slow (hence only 2), it’s also strong and flexible, and Wish->Berserk does speed up the win a bunch. People seem to have taken a liking to Genesis+Wonder lately, which I don’t really like, so I’m pleased to see Cunning Wish back in.

Now this may seem a little strange, but what do you guys think of Landstill’s draw engine in a Tog deck? That being 4 Brainstorm, 4 Standstill, 3 Fact or Fiction? Deed would need to go back into the deck IMO, but with a Shackles or Tog on the board when you lay a Standstill seems pretty good. That and drawing 3 cards for 2 mana is just broken. Hell, you could even put in Factories for defense (taking out the Ancient Tomb’s of course).

As for the Counterspell vs. Rune Snag/other debate, I’m really liking the idea of Rune Snag. A slightly weaker Mana Leak early game, but unlike Mana Leak, it gets better late game. I don’t like the idea of Merchant scroll (as someone mentioned) in that slot for the simple fact that it’s a sorcery. If it wasn’t, yeah, it’d be a lot better, but it’s not.

On Ancient Tomb. How’s that been working for you Bardo? Really interesting idea. I think I like it better than Mox Diamond at least, but how’s the life loss been treating you?

Lastly, the bit on instant’s vs. sorceries/ect. Very interesting bit there, and while I agree, and would love to play more instants, there just isn’t enough good (any?) instant speed mass removal, which I think is the biggest set back.

Anyway, that’s my 2 cents, or maybe that was closer to 50. :tongue:

H

[Nihil Credo]

Have you considered playing the Burning 'Tog version of the deck? It was the most successful Tog deck in the last Extended season, and its strength could translate decently to Legacy. Playing a tempo instead of a control game could be more powerful in this format. Nightscape Familiar performs a similar role to Ancient Tomb, letting you run a very fast curve and still be almost unaffected by Chalice@1.

Rough draft (a port of a list I had sitting in my folder, cutting stuff like Peek, Repeal and Deep Analysis that are too slow for Legacy):

2 Volcanic Island
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Badlands
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
8 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp

4 Nightscape Familiar
3 Psychatog
3 Flametongue Kavu
1 Morphling/Meloku/Razormane Masticore

4 Brainstorm

4 Fire/Ice
3 Burning Wish

7 between Remand, CotV, Daze, Rune Snag, Memory Lapse

4 Fact or Fiction
4 Force of Will

SB:
1 Chalice of the Void
4 Duress
3 Leyline of the Void
3 Pyroclasm
1 Chainer's Edict
1 Shattering Spree
1 Deep Analysis
1 Turbulent Dreams

[Dr. Teeth]

If we're talking about burning tog i think we need to get peter rotten in here, because i have never played the deck myself. But I did read the burning tog primer, heh, and from what I can figure, the deck has problems with beating other control decks packing alot of removal, such as 4c landstill, because it doesn't have the option to cunning wish>corpse dance.

[Ebinsugewa]

Playing Burning Tog is.. a harrowing experience at best. You're always on the edge of your seat. Burning Tog demolishes Threshold (especially with Fire Imps) because all your dudes are simultaneously removal, and Nightscape blocks Werebear for infinite until you can Burning Wish for Perish when they overcommit. Meddling Mage on FTK? Fire the Mage, Fire Imp the Mage, Massacre the Mage, the list goes on. However, Fish-type decks are becoming more and more prevalent, and 4 Silver Knight and 4 Mother of Runes + Equipment is exactly what this deck doesn't want to see. I have never played the match against BHWC Landstill. It seems like one of your major concerns is Crucible-Wastelock. In short, Burning Tog fares well against control decks; while having a slightly less impressive draw/counter package, Burning Wish is such a threat in this format, and Haunting Echoes is crushing if it resolves. I have been thinking about giving up the deck ever since Fish has been on the rise, though, we'll see what happens.

EDIT: I should say blue control decks, piles like Truffle Shuffle give this deck fits. Recurring huge dudes are not what FTK and Fire Imp want to be facing down. You really can't force them to play at your tempo, which means Burning Tog is almost wholly ineffective. They just play better dudes and more removal than you. Your only hope is to get lucky and Echoes away some of their creatures, since you're never getting their draw engine.

[frogboy]

How does Upheaval not totally wreck Truffle Shuffle?

[Ebinsugewa]

Mainly by not being in the board in the first place, since I never found it to be useful enough to warrant a slot over the six other cards I was playing. If you can hold on to a Burning Wish through all the discard, and get a Tog to stick after an Upheaval, that would be good times indeed. However, I was never able to get that to reliably work.